Sitting of 14 April 1937

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
London Passenger Transport Board Bill (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Monday next.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) [MONEY].
Considered in Committee of the whole House.
[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session providing, among other things, for the extension of the powers of the London County Council under Sections seventy and seventy-one of the Education Act, 1921, to include a power to provide, furnish, equip, maintain, and carry on the business of an hotel in conjunction with, or as part of, their Westminster Technical Institute situate in Vincent Square, in the city of Westminster, in connection with the supply in such hotel of education in all or any branch of the hotel industry, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be necessary to defray the expenses of the Board of Education in respect of such grants as may become payable under the Education Act, 1921, by reason of the extension aforesaid."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Colonel Gretton: May I ask what is the nature of the business to be carried on in this hotel? Not only is it proposed to set up a school, but apparently it is intended to carry on a hotel business. Will the hotel be open to the public?
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Dennis Herbert): I am afraid that all I can do at the moment is to explain the position to the Committee. It is my duty in matters of this kind to move Private Business formally, and if objection is taken to it, it becomes opposed Business, and has to be set down for debate at 7.30. The rather unusual procedure we are going through at the moment comes about in this way. The London County Council, as a higher education authority, receive a grant from the Exchequer of, I think,
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half their expenditure on education, and if in any Bill which they introduce they ask for additional powers which mean further expenditure in connection with their duties as an education authority, there has to be this particular form of Money Resolution. Perhaps the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has not seen it, but a White Paper has been issued in connection with this matter, which states that the London County Council, as the local education authority, desire to make provision for the training of persons who wish to take up hotel management, and for that purpose they require these additional powers which they have included in this Bill. The White Paper states that the net charge to the Exchequer resulting from the proposal will vary annually, but is not expected at any time to exceed a sum of the order of £1,500 or £1,800 a year. I can give the Committee that explanation of the position; but as regards the merits of the case one way or the other, of course it is not for me, as Chairman of Ways and Means, to say anything.
Colonel Gretton: I take it that the proposal can be debated on the Bill, if desired—that the position will not be prejudiced if this Resolution is passed to-day?
The Chairman of Ways and Means: It will not be debated in Committee on the Floor of the House unless objection is taken to the Resolution. If the Resolution is passed, the Committee on Private Bills, which takes the London County Council Bill, will then have to consider the Clauses which are to give the council these extended powers which would result in this increased expenditure.
Mr. Charles Williams: The Chairman of Ways and Means says it is expected that the expenditure will not be more than £1,500 to £1,800 a year—
The Chairman of Ways and Means: The White Paper says so.
Mr. Williams: Most of us who know anything of these expectations know that they are generally exceeded in the course of a few years. It seems an unsatisfactory position if we cannot debate the Money Resolution at some time. Can we object to it now?
The Deputy-Chairman: If the hon. Member objects, there can be no further proceedings now.
Mr. Williams: Than I object.
Whereupon The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  DANZIG.
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the new League of Nations High Commissioner in Danzig is receiving full facilities for carrying out the duties allocated to him by the League Council; whether, in particular, full and unimpeded contact is permitted between him and the Danzig population; and whether there is any interference with his telephone calls and postal correspondence?
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I have no reason to suppose that the High Commissioner is not meeting with the co-operation of the Danzig Senate in the performance of his task. He has not, so far as I am aware, reported to the Council of the League on any of the particular matters referred to by the hon. Member.
  Mr. Mander: Do I understand that my right hon. Friend has made inquiries and that that is the position?
  Mr. Eden: It is not for me to make inquiries. It is for the High Commissioner to report to the Council if and when he thinks fit.
  Mr. Mander: But did not the right hon. Gentleman say last week, in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair), that he would make inquiries on this point? Has he done so; and if not, will he be good enough to carry out that undertaking?
  Mr. Eden: If I gave that undertaking I will do so, but I have no recollection of it.

  ABYSSINIA.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any reports
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  about the decision of the Italian Government to expend large sums upon the development of the Eritrean port of Assab?
  Mr. Eden: My latest information is to the effect that a substantial harbour is in course of construction at Assab. I understand that the amount to be spent on it will be slightly under £1,000,000, spread over five years.
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the Italian allegation that the bombing outrage against Marshal Graziani was planned in this country; and whether he will take steps to counteract such propaganda?
  Mr. Eden: I understand that an allegation to this effect appeared in an Italian newspaper. I need hardly tell the House that it is a grotesque fabrication which will receive no credence in any responsible quarter.
  Mr. Henderson: In view of the fact that the Italian Press is controlled by the Italian Government, will not the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Italian Foreign Office?
  Mr. Eden: I do not think this matter is of any importance. I regard the statement with contempt. It is not worth bothering about.
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a statement with reference to the expulsion of six British missionaries from Abyssinia?
  Mr. Eden: I cannot at present add to the statement made on this subject by my Noble Friend on Monday last.

  BELGIUM (LOCARNO TREATY).
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now make a statement concerning the recent Anglo-Franco-Belgian conversations; and whether Belgium is now released from all military obligations to this country other than those to which she is committed by the Covenant of the League of Nations?
  Mr. Eden: As my Noble Friend stated on Monday last, I hope to be in a position to make a statement shortly.
  Mr. Leachasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the German renunciation of the Locarno Treaty and the approaching releasement of Belgium from her obligations under the treaty, His Majesty's Government still regard themselves as bound by the terms of that treaty?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Government are still bound by the first paragraph of Section III of the Text of Proposals of 19th March, 1936, by which they declared, as regards their obligations to France and Belgium, that nothing that had happened before or since the breach of the Treaty of Locarno could be considered as having freed the signatories of that treaty from any of their obligations or guarantees and that the latter subsisted in their entirety.
  Mr. Leach: In view of the fact that two signatories to the treaty have now cleared out and that the third, Italy, is notoriously unreliable, is it not time for us to clear out also?
  Mr. Eden: Certainly not. We consider that the treaty has advantages to His Majesty's Government.

  SPAIN.
  Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any information or reports as to commercial concessions granted by the rebel leaders in Spain to Germany and to Italy, and especially as to the granting of rights to exploit ore mines in Spain and Spanish Morocco?
  Mr. Eden: I have certain information which goes to show that General Franco has entered into current commercial contracts with various foreign countries. Such contracts must, however, be distinguished from commercial concessions for the future. His Majesty's Consul at Tetuan reported in February a rumour of the sale of the iron ore products of the Espanola del Rif mine in Spanish Morocco to German nationals. This report was not, however, confirmed, and I am now informed that the mine in question had been authorised to fulfil its
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  contracts with the United Kingdom for the rest of the year. I have had no reports to show that General Franco has granted, or promised to grant, to Germany or Italy any right to exploit iron mines in Spain or Spanish Morocco.
  Mr. Thorne: In the event of General Franco being defeated, will the Spanish Government be entitled to nullify everything that has been done?
  Mr. Eden: That is rather a wide question, which I should like to see on the Paper.
  Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action has been taken by His Majesty's Government with regard to the request made by the Spanish Government for an inquiry by the Non-Intervention Committee into the invasion of Spanish territory by Italian armed forces?
  Mr. Eden: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my noble Friend gave to a question asked on this subject by the hon. Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson) on Monday last.
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the position of Mr. Koestler, recently News-Chronicle correspondent in Malaga, where he is being detained, what charges have been made against him, and what efforts are being made to obtain his release?
  Mr. Eden: Mr. Koestler is not a British subject, but, in view of the fact that he was a correspondent of an English newspaper, His Majesty's Ambassador at Hendaye has already been instructed to inform the insurgent authorities unofficially that His Majesty's Government are concerned for his welfare and would be glad of information concerning his position.
  Mr. Mander: Although Mr. Koestler is not a British subject, is my right hon. Friend aware that he was taken by a Spanish staff officer by force from the house of Sir Peter Chalmers-Mitchell which was flying the Union Jack? In those circumstances, does the right hon. Gentleman not think it is right that we should make the most urgent representations?
  Mr. Eden: It is because of the connection of this gentleman with an English newspaper that I have taken this action.
  Mr. Mander: But is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that these are the facts—that he was taken by force from that house?
  Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: What is the nationality of this correspondent?
  Mr. Eden: I do not know.
  Rear-Admiral Beamish: Of what country is the correspondent a citizen?
  Mr. Eden: I do not know.
  Mr. H. G. Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how representations are made to a Government which the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) does not recognise?
  Mr. Mander: I understood my right hon. Friend to say that the facts as stated by me are correct?
  Mr. Eden: I would not like to say that. What I do say is that we have taken what action we can in the exceptional circumstances.
  Mr. Jagger: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, as the Government are recognised by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. G. Williams), he can communicate through him?
  Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many notes have been addressed by His Majesty's diplomatic agents to the insurgent leaders at Burgos since 1st January last; and how many replies have been received?
  Mr. Eden: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave yesterday to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander), and express the hope that he too will not find it indispensable to press for this information, for the reasons already given.
  Sir A. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what country the Non-Intervention Committee has entrusted the observation of the French frontier of Spain?
  Mr. Eden: The observation of the Franco-Spanish frontier is not entrusted to any one country. It will be under-
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  taken by five administrators, each in charge of a separate zone. According to the present arrangements these administrators will be a Swedish, a Norwegian, a Finnish, a Latvian and a Netherlands subject respectively. They are responsible to a "Chief Administrator" who is in charge of the whole frontier. The officer appointed for this post is Colonel Lunn, a Danish subject.
  Captain Cazalet: Has this scheme started yet?
  Mr. Eden: I am told that the subcommittee is to meet to-morrow and that the scheme will be in full operation early next week.
  Sir Arthur Salterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received any communication from the Spanish Government as to the landing of Italian combatants in substantial numbers at Cadiz on or about 24th March; and, if so, whether he has made, or is making, inquiries as to the facts of the case?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. A Note has now been received from the Spanish Ambassador in which it is stated that the Embassy have received confirmation of the disembarkation at Cadiz on 23rd, 24th and 25th March of 10,000 Italians. I am making inquiries into the statements contained in this Note.
  Sir A. Salter: Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House of the result of his inquiries?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. They all go to show that I would like next week's scheme this week, if I could get it.
  Mr. Bellenger: Would not this be a gross breach of the undertakings given by the Italian Government?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, it certainly would.
  Mr. Rileyasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that His Majesty's Government have not accorded belligerent rights to the rebel forces in Spain, instructions have been or will be given to provide adequate protection for British ships to carry on their legitimate trade in delivering non-contraband goods to Spanish ports?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Baldwin): Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to await the Debate this afternoon.

  ITALY AND JUGOSLAVIA.
  Mr. Arthur Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the recent Agreement made between Italy and Jugoslavia?
  Mr. Eden: I do not think I could properly undertake to make a statement on an agreement to which His Majesty's Government are not party.
  Mr. Henderson: Is this Treaty in any way adverse, in the view of the Foreign Secretary, to the Mediterranean policy of His Majesty's Government?
  Mr. Eden: All I can say is that all agreements, in so far as they are designed to further amicable relations, are naturally welcomed.
  Mr. Henderson: Is this Agreement in any way inimical to the Anglo-Italian Declaration of 2nd January?
  Mr. Riley: Has the right hon. Gentleman satisfied himself that this Agreement will not affect adversely our trade relations with the two countries?
  Mr. Eden: I would like notice of that question.

  CHINA (SMUGGLING).
  Mr. Hamilton Kerrasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the statement of Sir Frederick Maze, the inspector-general of the Chinese maritime customs, to the National Government, giving instances of armed smuggling in North China, especially in Tientsin and Tsingtao; and, seeing that these practices are a contravention of the Sino-Japanese treaty of 1896 as well as of the Tariff Autonomy Agreement of 1930, in view of the importance of this matter to British exports, will he make representations to all the Powers interested?
  Mr. Eden: I have not seen the statement in question, unless it is the statement reported in the Press in January and referred to in the reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for
  986
  Preston (Mr. Moreing) on 8th February. The facts are well known and, as I have previously stated, representations in regard to the matter have been made to the Japanese Government by His Majesty's Government and by at least one other Government. A recent report gives ground for thinking that the situation generally is improving, but I will consider whether there is any further action that can usefully be taken.

  THE CORONATION.
  Mr. Storeyasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any of His Majesty's ships will visit North-east coast ports during the Coronation celebrations?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Lord Stanley): The answer is in the negative. The Home Fleet, with the exception of a few destroyers which will be visiting Harwich, Dover and Southampton, will be at Southend and in the Thames from 7th to 13th May. As the Home Fleet is proceeding to Spithead for the Coronation Review immediately after this visit, I am afraid that it is impossible to arrange for visits to more distant ports at this period.
  Mr. Storey: Will they make a visit to the North-east coast later in the year?

  ROYAL NAVY.

    TORPEDO FACTORY WORKERS (SCOTLAND).
    Mr. R. Gibsonasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that men at present serving in the Royal Naval torpedo factory, Greenock, who have volunteered, and have been accepted, for service in the Royal Naval torpedo works at Alexandria, have been unable to get housing accommodation at Alexandria, and whether he will forthwith proceed with the erection of houses at or near Alexandria for torpedo workers, as was formerly done by the Admiralty at Greenock, or take other steps to relieve these workers of the inconvenience and expense of travelling between Greenock and Alexandria?
    Lord Stanley: With regard to the first part of the question, I have ascertained that of the 10 men transferred for service reasons from Greenock to Alexandria,

    987
    nine have obtained houses in that locality. In answer to the second part, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on 17th February by my right hon. Friend. The erection of houses at Greenock at Admiralty expense during the War was an exceptional measure, taken at a time when municipalities had not the facilities for undertaking housing schemes which they now possess.

    CRUISERS (6-INCH GUNS).
    Mr. Lennox-Boydasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the total number of British, United States of America, Japanese, French, Italian, and German cruisers, respectively, built and building, each of which carries more than six 6-inch guns?
    Mr. Donnerasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state, separately, the total number of British, United States of America, Japanese, French, Italian, and German cruisers, built and building, each of which carries not more than six 6-inch guns?
    Lord Stanley: As regards the foreign cruisers, I am unable to add anything to the information contained in the Command Paper "Fleets"; and as regards our own, it would be undesirable to give any additional details.
    Mr. Donner: Would the Noble Lord indicate whether the "Dido" class of cruiser is built with any specific purpose or objective, in view of the fact that other nations are not building cruisers with so small a proportion of guns?
    Lord Stanley: My hon. Friend will, of course, realise that we do not necessarily build ships to follow the example of other countries; we build them for our own needs. Cruisers of this kind will have a very useful purpose.
    Mr. Thorne: Does the Noble Lord not think that the Germans and Italians know all that is going on in this country just as we know what is going on in Germany and Italy?
    Lord Stanley: I could not agree to that.
    Mr. Mander: Is it worth while putting these guns into British ships, if they are not allowed to fire them?
    Mr. Thurtle: Will the Noble Lord appeal to his hon. Friends to have regard to the national interests before putting questions of this kind?
    Mr. Donnerasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in order to allay public anxiety, he will make a statement in regard to the striking power and effectiveness of the "Dido" class of cruisers in relation to the gun-power, armour, and range of the cruisers at present built or building by the principal naval Powers?
    Lord Stanley: The Admiralty are satisfied that the cruisers of the "Dido" class will prove a valuable and effective addition to the Fleet. I must not, however, be drawn into a premature disclosure of their design and armament.

    DOCKYARD DISMISSALS.
    Mr. T. Williams (for Mr. Paling)asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the terms of the notice sent to other Government Departments informing them of the circumstances of the dismissal of the five men from the dockyards in case those men might apply for entry into other Government industrial establishments?
    Lord Stanley: No, Sir. I think the hon. Member will agree that it is quite inadvisable to publish confidential communications between one Government Department and another.
    Mr. Williams: In view of the fact that these communications condemn these men to become more or less permanent recipients of public assistance, does the Noble Lord not think they ought to know the contents of the message?
    Lord Stanley: The hon. Member is quite wrong in saying that these communications condemn these men before all employers.
    Mr. Williams: Are private employers likely to employ men who have been prohibited from being engaged in any Government establishment?

  PALESTINE.

    ROYAL COMMISSION'S REPORT.
    Mr. Morganasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now state the date of publication of the Palestine report?
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): No, Sir.
    Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether he will give an assurance that this House will have an opportunity of considering the Report of the Royal Commission on Palestine before a Government decision is reached on the matter?
    The Prime Minister: Until the Report of the Royal Commission on Palestine is received I can make no statement.
    Mr. Mander: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the report will be communicated to Members of the House before it is sent to any persons outside?
    The Prime Minister: Perhaps the hon. Member will put that question down.
    Mr. Charles Williams: I hope the Prime Minister will not neglect to let the League of Nations know.

    CITRUS INDUSTRY.
    Mr. Morganasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the damage done to the Palestine citrus industry during the recent season as a result of the bad conditions under which the fruit was shipped from Palestine to Great Britain; and whether he proposes to take any steps to prevent a repetition of this damage in future seasons?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am aware that some of the Palestine fruit has, unfortunately, arrived in this country during the present season in a very bad state. I am advised that, in so far as such wastage is abnormal this year, it is probably due to the exceptionally heavy rains during the harvest. The Palestine Government are at present considering a plan of research to discover the causes of the smaller amount of wastage that normally occurs. Meanwhile it would be wrong to assume that the conditions on shipboard are solely responsible.

    CRIME.
    Colonel Wedgwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information as to the murder of Mrs. Engelhardt, near Petach Tikrah; and what steps are being taken to protect life and stock in Palestine?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have no official information regarding this murder, but
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    I am asking the High Commissioner for a report. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the reply which was given on 6th April to the Member for Wolverhampton, East (Mr. Mander). No murders or attempted murders have been reported between 18th March and 11th April, when I regret to learn that not only the crime referred to by the right hon. Gentleman, but also armed attacks on several Arabs took place.
    Colonel Wedgwood: Does not the right hon. Gentleman get reports of these murders that take place? Why is it that he never has any information?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Reports are usually sent once a week.
    Colonel Wedgwood: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to enforce law and order in Palestine; and has he still complete confidence in the High Commissioner?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am not in Palestine. I am not taking any steps, but, as I have explained in answer to the question, a great many steps have been taken.
    Colonel Wedgwood: Surely the right hon. Gentleman is responsible for law and order? May I ask what steps are being taken?

    TANGANYIKA (NUTRITION).
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make any statement as to the Departmental Committee in Tanganyika on the subject of human nutrition in that territory; and whether that committee will take into consideration the memorandum by the International Institute of African Languages and Cultures, pointing out the need of combining medical and anthropological inquiry in respect of nutrition problems?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: As the result of the circular despatch published in 1936 as Colonial No. 121, a Departmental Committee has been set up in Tanganyika as in many other parts of the Colonial Empire to study questions relating to human nutrition. Copies of the memorandum to which the hon. Member refers have already been sent to all African Governments, and I have no doubt that

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    the desirability of combining medical and anthropological inquiry will be given full weight by the committee.
    Mr. Mathers: Is there actual guidance in the despatch referred to that inquiry should follow those lines?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Yes. This despatch suggests certain lines, and, as I think the hon. Gentleman knows, a special committee of the Civil and Research Organisation here are receiving replies as they come in from the various Dependencies.

    FEDERATED MALAY STATES (WORKERS' ORGANISATIONS).
    Mr. Parkerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the recent strikes in Selangor and Negri Sembilan, it is intended to permit the coolies on the rubber plantations and the mine workers in the Federated Malay States to organise in trades unions; and whether, as the agitators arrested by the police in Selangor were trying to organise such trade unions and as strikes are in fact legal in Selangor, he will state by what authority in the past organisers of strikes have been banished from Selangor by the British Resident under the provisions of the Banishment Enactment?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The association of labourers in trade unions in the Federated Malay States is, and has for many years been, permitted. Unions and guilds of labourers can be, and are, established by registration under the Societies Enactment. As regards the second part of the question, I am not aware of any cases of expulsion simply in respect of the organisation of strikes, but there have been cases in which expulsion has been ordered where industrial disputes have been misused for the purpose of incitement to violence and disorder.

    BRITISH HONDURAS.
    Mr. McGheeasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the purpose of the exchange of land which has recently taken place in British Honduras between the Government and the Belize Estates and Produce Company; and whether he is satisfied that this exchange was in the public interest?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The purpose of this transaction is to settle a long-standing dispute between the Government of British Honduras and the Belize Estate and Produce Company, Limited, as to the ownership of certain lands on the western frontier of the Colony. I am satisfied that this settlement is in the public interest.
    Mr. McGhee: Is it true that the land received by the Government has been completely denuded of saleable trees?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I would like notice of that question.
    Mr. McGheeasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the amount proposed to be spent during the coming year in British Honduras on building houses for officials and on paying their passages when on leave?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The only sum provided in the Estimates of British Honduras, 1937, for building houses for officials is $1,500 for quarters for a police sergeant. Proposals for constructing quarters for five senior officials at a total cost of $57,000 are under consideration in the Colony, but no decision has been reached. No "leave passages" are provided from public funds in British Honduras.

    TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO.
    Mr. Leachasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is prepared to recommend the grant of a new and enlarged constitution to the important colony of Trinidad and Tobago, in view of the new constitution granted to the lesser West Indian islands?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I have not received any serious demand for a revision of the existing constitution, and in the circumstances I am of the opinion that consideration of the matter would be premature.
    Mr. Leach: Would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to give an undertaking that if the application is made he would regard it in a friendly fashion?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I would rather see what proposal is made and from whom it comes. I understand that the majority of the people in Trinidad are very well satisfied with their present Government.

    COLONIAL DEPENDENCIES (NATIVE LABOUR).
    Mr. Ammonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any steps are being taken to bring the recruiting of labourers in British Dependencies in Africa into line with the provision of the International Labour Office Recruiting Convention of 1936, especially as regards the payment by the employer of the expenses of the worker's journey to and from the place of his employment and the protection of the workers on this journey?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am still in communication with the Governments of the Colonial Dependencies on this matter. I am hoping that it will be found possible for the Convention to be applied without modification to all the Dependencies for which I am responsible.
    Mr. Leslieasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has instituted any inquiries into the question of contract labour in connection with indigenous workers in mines and other industries in preparation for the International Labour Conference of 1938?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The Governments of the Colonial Dependencies are already in possession of the recommendations of the Committee of Experts on Native Labour of the International Labour Office on this question, and I intend to communicate with them again as soon as the report on the subject, which is now being prepared by the International Labour Office for consideration at the International Labour Conference in 1938, is available.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether the provisional agreement between the Governments of Nyasaland and Northern and Southern Rhodesia would preclude any possibility of recruiting natives in any of those territories for work in the Union of South Africa; and whether he will take steps to secure that it shall be open to natives of Nyasaland, if they desire it, to be recruited for work in the Union, where wages are higher?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: The agreement does not preclude recruitment of natives for work in the Union, but it provides that any proposal for such recruitment shall form the subject of prior consultation
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    between the Governments of Southern and Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland. Hitherto, organised recruitment of Nyasaland natives for work outside Nyasaland has been prohibited, but the question whether it is desirable to permit such recruitment on a limited scale for the Rand is receiving careful consideration, and a small experimental recruitment has been sanctioned.

    BROADCASTING (EMPIRE SERVICE).
    Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies in what manner the Colonial and/or Protectorate Governments assist financially towards the cost of broadcasting to the British Colonies and Protectorates, and what broadcasting services for Europe are at present being operated in their respective territories?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: With regard to the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the Postmaster-General to the question by the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Viant) on 12th April. With regard to the latter part of the question, no broadcast services designed for reception in Europe are operated in the Colonial Dependencies.
    Mr. Day: Are any negotiations going on for the purpose of increasing the contribution?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: No, Sir.

    CUBA (BRITISH SUBJECTS, REPATRIATION).
    Mr. Maxtonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many British subjects have been repatriated from Cuba to the various West Indian islands; and what steps have been taken to ensure them a livelihood in these islands?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: As the reply to this question contains detailed figures, and is rather long, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. But I may say that the total number repatriated from Cuba to British West Indian islands in the last two and a quarter years is 458 persons.
    Mr. Maxton: Will the right hon. Gentleman give me the answer to the second part of my question, which will not be in tabular form?
    Mr. Ormsby-Gore: As regards the second part of the question, the Government of Jamaica has under consideration proposals for various schemes of public works which should provide employment for local labour. The Governor of Barbados reported in June, 1936, that there was not a great deal of employment in the Colony, and that various schemes of public expenditure, e.g., on waterworks and roads, provided work for a large proportion of the labour which was not engaged in agriculture.
    Following are the figures:
    Number of repatriations of British West Indians from Cuba since 1st January, 1935:

    In 1935.

    To Jamaica

    …

    218

    To Barbados

    …

    3

    To other Islands

    …

    2

    223

    In 1936.

    To Jamaica

    …

    155

    To Barbados

    …

    10

    To other Islands

    …

    8

    173

    In 1937 (to 12th April).

    To Jamaica

    …

    28

    To Barbados

    …

    32

    To other Islands

    …

    2

    62

    Total

    …

    458

  AVIATION.

    SCHOOL AEROPLANES.
    Mr. Leachasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will consider, along with the President of the Board of Education, the provision of school aeroplanes at convenient places for the encouragement of civil aviation among the rising generation?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Sir Philip Sassoon): It has been found possible to present obsolete airframes and engines for instructional use on the ground to schools.
    Mr. Leach: Does that mean that any education authority that desires to take advantage of these aeroplanes for tuition purposes will be able to do so, with the assistance of officers of the Air Department?
    Sir P. Sassoon: Yes, I think so, if they apply and if they have suitable premises and machines are available.

    AIR LINER "CAPRICORNUS."
    Mr. Perkinsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what weather reports were given to the "Capricornus" from the French meteorological stations as to the conditions around Macon on 24th March; and whether any warning was given as to the possibility of ice-forming conditions?
    Sir P. Sassoon: As this accident is at present under investigation by the French authorities, no official information regarding the weather reports given by French meteorological stations is as yet in my possession. As regards the last part of the question, however, the weather forecast supplied to the pilot before he left England indicated that conditions favourable for ice formation might be met with up to 5,000 feet between Macon and Marseilles.
    Captain Harold Balfour: In view of the fact that the inquiry is being held by the French authorities, have we in this country the power to cross-examine the French witnesses; and will the evidence and conclusions of the French inquiry be published in this country in the same way as in the case of a British inquiry?
    Sir P. Sassoon: As my hon. and gallant Friend says, the investigation is being carried out by the French authorities. I hope it will be possible to publish the conclusions of the report, but we shall have to get the permission of the French Government to do so.
    Captain Balfour: Can we cross-examine witnesses?
    Sir P. Sassoon: No; the investigation is being carried out by the French authorities.

    IMPERIAL AIRWAYS (DE-ICING APPARATUS).
    Mr. Perkinsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that two large air-liners belonging to Imperial Airways have been lost in Europe during the last month, and that neither of these machines was fitted with de-icing apparatus in spite of the fact that the weather reports indicated snow or sleet; and whether this company proposes to run its European services next winter with machines still not equipped with deicing devices?
    Sir P. Sassoon: As regards the first part of the question, the facts are as stated, but pending the conclusion of the investigations it is not established that if there had been de-icing equipment on the aircraft they would not have been lost. As regards the last part, I can only say at the moment that the closest possible attention is being given both by Imperial Airways and by the Department to the two outstanding problems of ice formation on the wings and on the air-screw.
    Mr. Perkins: Do Imperial Airways propose to run their European services next winter with machines not equipped with de-icers?
    Sir P. Sassoon: I hope that the experiments that are now being conducted will result in a suitable device.
    Mr. Perkins: Is the right hon. Baronet aware that the other line, British Airways, has machines which are equipped with de-icers?
    Mr. Lyons: Is there any difficulty in making the equipment of so-called ice-breaking contrivances compulsory upon all aircraft when time and circumstances so warrant?
    Sir P. Sassoon: I should like to explain that there are a great many parts of an aeroplane which have to be protected against ice. The most important is the engine, and, as far as that is concerned, we have satisfactory protection.

    TRANS-CANADA ROUTE.
    Mr. Perkinsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what steps have been taken by the Air Ministry to ensure that the proposed Trans-Canada air route is equipped with British machines?
    Sir P. Sassoon: The organisation of this service is a matter for His Majesty's Government in the Dominion of Canada.

    BLIND FLYING AND HOMING.
    Sir William Davisonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the Air Ministry has made any investigations in the latest methods of blind flying and homing now installed at the airports of Dubendorf, Zurich, and Tempelhof, Berlin, with a view to their adoption on Imperial Airways routes; and what has been the result of such investigations?
    Sir P. Sassoon: I am advised that the apparatus installed at the airports named is similar to that with which Croydon, Heston and Gatwick are now equipped. The question of the installation of this equipment at other airports on the Imperial routes is under consideration, but except at Newfoundland it does not necessarily appear that its employment will be required in the meteorological conditions obtaining outside Europe.

    AIRPORT, LULLINGSTONE.
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether any decision has yet been reached regarding the establishment of an airport at Lulling-stone, Kent, for the use of Imperial Airways, Limited?
    Sir P. Sassoon: While the Air Ministry welcome the proposal to create additional aerodrome facilities within reasonable distance of London and have given and will give all such technical advice as may be desired by the Southern Railway in connection with the development of the site at Lullingstone in accordance with the plans which are being prepared by the railway's own technical advisers, any decision in regard to the establishment of the Airport will be one to be taken by the Southern Railway and will not rest with the Air Ministry. It is understood that the railway are proceeding with the project. As regards the possible use of the Airport by Imperial Airways, there is nothing that I could add to the information which I gave my hon. and learned Friend on 24th March last.
    Mr. Lyons: Can my right hon. Friend say whether this aerodrome will be for the use of Imperial Airways exclusively or for the use of general air traffic?
    Sir P. Sassoon: That will depend upon the company. I have no information.
    Mr. Lyons: Does the right hon. Baronet consider that it would be right or not that, if an air port is established in this district, it should be utilised exclusively for one firm, namely, Imperial Airways? Does he not think that, as a matter of policy, it should be available for general use by all air traffic?
    Sir P. Sassoon: The hon. and learned Member must not assume that that is the case.

    AIRCRAFT WORKERS (FAIR WAGES CLAUSE).
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he can make a statement relative to the correspondence with the National Council of Aircraft Workers with reference to the alleged non-operation of the Fair Wages Clause at the firm of Airscrew, Limited; and what action does he propose to take?
    Sir P. Sassoon: I have examined carefully the correspondence forwarded to me by the National Council of Aircraft Workers and the statements made by that organisation and I cannot see that there is any evidence that the terms of the Fair Wages Clause are not being complied with by the Airscrew Company, Limited. I am making further inquiries, however, with regard to certain statements which appear in the correspondence.

    DEVELOPMENT (COMMITTEE'S RECOMMENDATIONS).
    Mr. E. Smithasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the Air Ministry have given consideration to the conclusions and recommendations of the committee that considered the development of civil aviation in the United Kingdom; and what action is being taken at present?
    Sir P. Sassoon: Consideration has been given to the conclusions and recommendations of the committee and, as stated by my Noble Friend in the Memorandum accompanying Air Estimates, the Government have approved those recommendations which call for action on their part. The necessary steps to put these recommendations into force are at present under active consideration in the Air Ministry.

    STATE AID.
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will indicate the amounts of State aid and/or subsidies paid towards civil aviation for the most recent year by foreign countries for which figures are available?
    Sir P. Sassoon: As a table of figures is involved, I am circulating the reply in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Lyons: Is it the policy of the Air Ministry at any time in the near future to encourage the promotion of British internal air lines by granting some State
    1000
    subvention? Has anything been done since the publication of the Maybury Report to give effect to any proposals for the promotion of home air lines?
    Sir P. Sassoon: Yes, we have taken steps for that purpose.
    Following is the reply:
    Amounts of the air transport subsidies for the last year for which information is available and also of the civil aviation votes (including the subsidies) as a whole, since the latter figures may be regarded broadly as representing State aid to civil aviation. In each case the local currency has, for convenience, been converted to sterling at par rates of exchange.

    Air transport subsidy.

    Total civil aviation vote.

    £

    £

    Belgium

    84,857

    126,933

    Czechoslovakia

    114,546

    283,125

    Denmark

    13,774

    61,139

    Finland

    16,488

    17,782

    France

    1,195,532

    1,413,851

    Germany

    962,120

    Not available

    Greece

    43,496

    72,268

    Italy

    765,736

    803,400

    Netherlands

    45,235

    99,281

    Poland

    136,007

    390,433

    Rumania

    4,916

    24,770

    Sweden

    45,240

    64,375

    Switzerland

    18,636

    29,956

    Yugoslavia

    26,404

    41,069

    U.S.A

    2,511,330*

    5,371,625

    Netherlands East Indies.

    33,031

    48,256

    Japan

    213,853

    666,845

    * Air Mail loss.

    EMPIRE FLYING BOATS (WINDOWS).
    Colonel Ropnerasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that the windows of the Empire flying boats are of such a size that in case of emergency it would not be possible for passengers to escape thereby; and whether he will consider the advisability of issuing instructions that whenever possible windows of all passenger aeroplanes should be sufficiently large to allow passengers to escape through them?
    Sir P. Sassoon: The windows of the Empire boats are specially constructed to withstand buffeting from the sea in heavy weather, and consequently are not intended for use as emergency exits. Adequate emergency exits are, however,

    1001
    provided from all passenger compartments of these boats, and the dimensions of all these exits are larger than the minimum considered necessary for safety.
    Colonel Ropner: Is it not a fact that the emergency exits are in the roof and, if the machine is on its back, incapable of use?
    Mr. Macquisten: Will the right hon. Baronet see that these emergency exits are not sufficiently large to enable certain people to commit spectacular suicide?

    SOUTH AMERICAN SERVICE.
    Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the Inter-Departmental Committee on International Air Communications has considered the question of the establishment of a British air service to South America; and whether any decision has been reached in the matter?
    Sir P. Sassoon: Yes, Sir. As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Co-ordination of Defence intimated on 22nd March last, His Majesty's Government have decided, subject to satisfactory terms being agreed, to select British Airways Limited to operate an experimental service to West Africa and to act as the chosen instrument of the Government for the development of any future subsidised South American service.

    MAYBURY COMMITTEE (RECOMMENDATIONS).
    Mr. Roland Robinsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what legislation will be necessary in order to carry into effect the recommendations of the Maybury Committee; and how far can the recommendations be carried into effect without Parliamentary action?
    Sir P. Sassoon: As regards the first part of the question, so far as can be seen no legislation will be necessary. As regards the second part, further Parliamentary action will be required in regard to a draft Order for the licensing of air transport and commercial flying which will be laid before both Houses in due course in accordance with Section 5 of the Air Navigation Act, 1936.
    Mr. Robinson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how soon this matter will be brought before the House?
    Sir P. Sassoon: These recommendations were only approved in March of
    1002
    this year. I cannot say exactly when they will be brought before the House.

    AERODROME, NORTH LONDON.
    Mr. R. Robinsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what steps have been taken to discover and secure a suitable site for a standard aerodrome to the north of London, as recommended by the Maybury Committee?
    Sir P. Sassoon: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Melton (Mr. Everard) on 24th March last.
    Mr. Perkins: Is there any reason why Hendon should not become a civil aerodrome?
    Sir P. Sassoon: At present it is a Service aerodrome.

  DEFENCE.

    ARMAMENT ORDERS (GERMANY).
    Mr. Rileyasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether any orders have been given during the past three years by the German Government or German private firms to firms in this country for the supply of machines or material to Germany in connection with German re-armament?
    The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence (Sir Thomas Inskip): I regret that I have no information on this matter.
    Mr. Riley: Did not the Minister last week in reply to a question state that the British Government had bought £169,000 worth of machines and material from German firms in 1936 for British armament purposes, and did he not consider it derogatory to this country to be obtaining supplies for British re-armament from Germany?
    Sir T. Inskip: The hon. Member's question refers to orders given to private firms in this country. As to that I have no information.

    JOISTS AND BARS (PRICES).
    Mr. T. Johnstonasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether he has made any further inquiries into the published statements affirming that the price of MS joists has risen during the past year from £4 12s. 6d. to £9 12s. 6d. and MS bars from £4 17s. 6d. to £10?
    Sir T. Inskip: Yes, Sir. I am informed that the prices referred to are f.o.b. Antwerp, and only prices for shipment to the East. They do not apply to British material or to sales in this country.
    Mr. Johnston: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the circular in question, which was issued by William Jackson and Company, is being sent out to firms in this country?
    Sir T. Inskip: I have no information to that effect, but I will accept it from the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Johnston: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the circular in question, and has he communicated with William Jackson and Company as to the undesirability of issuing statements which might be misinterpreted?
    Sir T. Inskip: I will consider the suggestion, but I would point out that the word "nominal" appears, which indicates that the quotations are not very important.
    Mr. Louis Smith: Having regard to the fact that figures are published which are found to be incorrect, will the right hon. Gentleman suggest to the Iron and Steel Federation the desirability of having authentic figures published from time to time?
    Sir T. Inskip: I will consider that suggestion, but I do not think there is any doubt at all as to the prices of iron and steel issued by the Iron and Steel Federation.

    AIRCRAFT MANUFACTURE (PROFITS).
    Mr. Ammonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he can give the House the standard of profit laid down for the manufacture of aircraft?
    Sir P. Sassoon: I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which were given by my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence on Wednesday last to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton East (Mr. Mander).
    Mr. Ammon: Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten that when the Estimates were under discussion I asked this question and he said that he would be pleased to give me the information. What has happened since then?
    Sir P. Sassoon: All the information possible has been given by my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence.
    Mr. Ammon: The right hon. Gentleman said that the information could not be given. What is the reason for this difference of view?
    Mr. Mander: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no information at all has been given?

    FOOD SUPPLIES.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the President of the Board of Trade to what minimum number of days' supply of wheat and flour the Government intend to work up in order to allay the alarm in the public mind owing to the present inadequate reserve of supplies?
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Runciman): I am not at present in a position to make any statement with regard to the question of storing additional quantities of wheat and flour. I would, however, point out in connection with certain statements that have recently appeared in the Press, that according to my information, stocks of wheat and flour in this country are being maintained at the normal level of at least three months' supply.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread disquiet in the country owing to the feeling that there is not sufficient supply available in case of emergency?
    Mr. Macquisten: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that there is a plentiful supply of oats as well as wheat? Oats in Scotland are good for men and in England for horses.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, in view of the present condition of the agricultural industry and the uncertainties of the future, when he will be in a position to make a statement to the House regarding the Government's plans to protect the food supplies of this country in war-time?
    Sir T. Inskip: I am not at present in a position to say when a further statement may be made as to the Government's plans for protecting food supplies in war time.
    Mr. T. Williams: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what his opinion is as to the condition of the agricultural industry at this moment?
    Sir T. Inskip: That is another question altogether.

    AGRICULTURE.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in addition to the Government's policy of spending money on the Navy, Army, and Air Force as the lines of defence for this country, he can assure the House of Commons that agriculture has not been overlooked, since this expenditure may be valueless if agriculture be neglected?
    The Minister of Pensions (Mr. Ramsbotham): I have been asked to reply. I can assure my hon. Friend that every aspect of home agriculture is being considered in connection with this question.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the absolute hopelessness which is eating into the heart of the countryside owing to the failure of the Government to support agriculture?
    Major Braithwaite: Has the Minister noticed any new indication of a desire on the part of any of the services to place more business with the home agriculturists?
    Mr. Ramsbotham: I am asked in the question on the Order Paper whether I can assure the House that agriculture has not been overlooked. I can give that assurance.

    SINGAPORE (FORTIFICATION).
    Mr. R. J. Taylorasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence what is the total cost to date of the fortification at Singapore; and how much of that amount was contributed by the respective Dominions?
    Sir T. Inskip: The estimated expenditure to 31st March, 1937, is £11,972,000.
    Dominion, Colonial and other contributions are as follow:—

    £

    New Zealand

    1,000,000

    Federated Malay States

    2,000,000

    Hong Kong

    250,000

    H.H. Sultan and State of Johore

    500,000

    Total

    £3,750,000

    In addition the Government of Straits Settlements have provided over 3,000 acres of land.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE (EQUIPMENT DEPOT, CUMBERLAND).
  Mr. W. Robertsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air in what part of Cumberland the proposed Air Force Equipment Depot will be situated; what labour will be employed this year upon its preparation; and what number of employés he expects will be regularly employed when it is established?
  Sir P. Sassoon: The new Royal Air Force Equipment Depot which is being established in Cumberland will be situated in the vicinity of Carlisle. It is expected that some 15o men will be employed upon its construction in about two months' time and probably as many as 500 in six months. So far as can be foreseen at present, it is expected that the depot will employ about 1,400 men when it is fully established.

  TRANSPORT.

    RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
    Mr. Lyonsasked the Minister of Transport whether he proposes to publish complete reports of the inquiries into the recent rail accidents?
    The Minister of Transport (Mr. Hore-Belisha): Yes, Sir, as at present advised.

    TOLL-FREE BRIDGE, SELBY.
    Colonel Ropnerasked the Minister of Transport when work will be commenced upon the new toll-free bridge over the River Ouse at Selby?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: Legislation may be necessary.

    MOTOR CAR DRIVING LICENCES.
    Mr. Dayasked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the fact that a person driving a motor car after the expiration of a licence lays himself liable to an offence under Section 4 (1) of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, he will consider introducing legislation or making regulations to the effect that all driving licences should expire on 31st December each year?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: This requirement would create congestion in licensing

    1007
    offices. I have arranged for reminders to be sent to holders of expiring driving licences.
    Mr. Day: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there will be any great difficulty seeing what is done with regard to renewing Inland Revenue licences?
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: This would mean renewing 3,000,000 licences on the same day.
    Mr. Day: Is it not a fact that more than 3,000,000 Inland Revenue licences have to be issued on the same day?

    POLICE TRAFFIC PATROLS.
    Commander Locker-Lampsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many policemen have been engaged as traffic patrols during each of the past five years; how many prosecutions for motoring offences have taken place and how many convictions; and what is the yearly cost of the maintenance of this organisation?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): The motor patrols form part of the strengths of the various police forces, and it would not be possible to give the particulars asked for with regard to their strength and cost for the country generally without much detailed inquiry and analysis. Figures of prosecutions and convictions are available in the Returns of offences relating to motor vehicles presented annually to this House. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT details of the strength of the Metropolitan police motor patrols, and of the numbers of prosecutions and convictions in the Metropolitan police district.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: May I have a reply to the last part of the question? Can that information be given?
    Mr. Lloyd: Not without a great deal of inquiry throughout the country.
    Following is the statement:
    Strength of Metropolitan Police Traffic Patrols.

    1933

    …

    522 (including 33 Serjeants and 485 Constables).

    1934

    …

    522 (including 33 Serjeants and 485 Constables).

    1935

    …

    526 (including 33 Serjeants and 489 Constables).

    1936

    …

    560 (including 37 Serjeants 519 Constables).

    1937

    …

    686 (including 63 Serjeants and 613 Constables).

    Prosecutions and Convictions for Motoring Offences in the Metropolitan Police District.

    Year.

    Total Prosecutions (Charges and Summonses).

    Total Convictions.

    1932

    …

    44,249

    37,152

    1933

    …

    53,188

    46,055

    1934

    …

    80,437

    68,585

    1935

    …

    118,410

    101,051

    1936

    …

    140,692

    121,639

  POST OFFICE, LLANELLY.
  Mr. James Griffithsasked the Postmaster-General whether he has considered the representations from the Llanelly Borough Council complaining of the delay in proceeding with extensions and improvements of the Llanelly post office; and, in view of these complaints, what steps he proposes to take to expedite the carrying out of the improvements promised by his Department as far back as two years ago?
  The Assistant Postmaster-General (Sir Walter Womersley): The representations of the Llanelly Borough Council have been considered, and the reason why more rapid progress with the extension of the Llanelly post office has not been possible has been fully explained to that body. I have already assured the hon. Member that every effort is being made to expedite matters, and I am satisfied that that is so.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (POSTAL CORRESPONDENCE).
  Captain Pluggeasked the Postmaster-General whether he has any figures showing how the volume of correspondence passing through the House of Commons post office has changed during the past 20 years; whether it has been necessary to increase the staff during this period; and, if so, to what extent?
  Sir W. Womersley: I am sorry that the statistics asked for by my hon. Friend are not available. The number of staff has shown little change in recent years as temporary assistance is readily obtainable from the South Western District Post Office when necessary.

  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING ACT, 1932 (APPEALS).
  Miss Cazaletasked the Minister of Health how many appeals he has received from local authorities in connection with the erection of new dwelling-houses, and how many he has upheld?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. R. S. Hudson): I understand that my hon. Friend wishes to know the number of appeals made under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, against the refusal of local authorities to permit development. The total number of appeals during the years 1933 to 1936 was 2,087. In 600 of these the local authority was upheld, and in 346 the appellant was successful. The remainder were either withdrawn or settled by agreement.

  STRAITS CONVENTION.
  Mr. Dayasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any, and, if so, what, replies have been received from His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions with reference to the note His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom received from the Turkish Government with the request that discussions should be embarked upon with the Powers who took part in the Straits Convention, signed at Lausanne, on 24th July, 1923, as Article 18 of that Convention had ceased to be an effective guarantee of Turkish security; and what reply has now been forwarded to the Turkish Government?
  Commander Southby (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. His Majesty's Government in the Commonwealth of Australia were represented at the Conference held at Montreux last year and the Commonwealth representative signed the Convention drawn up at the Conference. His Majesty's Governments in the other Dominions were unable to accept the invitation of the Turkish Government to participate in the Conference, but each of these Governments intimated formally that they renounced any rights which they might have possessed under the Straits Convention of 1923 and that they raise no objection to such abrogation of its provisions as might be agreed upon at the Conference.
  Mr. Day: Can the hon. and gallant Member say whether any further negotiations are going on with the other Dominions?
  Commander Southby: Canada, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa Government communicated their renunciation of rights under the Straits Convention by notice to the President of the Conference, and the Irish Free State in a note addressed to the Turkish Ambassador in London.

  BURGLARIES.
  Commander Locker-Lampsonasked the Home Secretary how many burglaries have taken place in London and the Home Counties during the past five years; and what number of these have resulted in the conviction of the criminal?
  Mr. Lloyd: I regret that it has not been possible within the time available to compile the statistical information available on the subject, but I will send it to my hon. and gallant Friend as soon as it has been compiled.
  Commander Locker-Lampson: Is the hon. Member aware that 75 per cent. of the burglars are not caught?
  Mr. Thorne: Will the hon. Member be good enough to let it be known that it will be no good any burglars coming to hon. Members on this side of the House?
  Mr. Macquisten: Is the hon. Member aware that owing to the time that is taken up by the police challenging motorists and visiting night clubs, they have no time to look after burglaries?

  PENSIONS.
  Mr. E. Smithasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will have actuarial reports prepared on the financial provisions required to provide, respectively, a pension of 15s. a week or 20s. a week for people prepared to retire at 60 years of age, and a pension of 15s. a week for all widows and spinsters at 55 years of age who retire from their employment?
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lieut.-Colonel Colville): The considerations which would arise if improvements in the contributory pensions scheme were

  1011
  to be made available subject to the retirement of the recipient from work are not primarily actuarial. It is not possible to discuss the subject within the limits of a Parliamentary reply. It was fully debated in the House on 21st February, 1934, and I would refer the hon. Member to the speech of the then Financial Secretary and to the Resolution adopted by the House on that occasion.
  Mr. Smith: Will the hon. and gallant Member and his right hon. Friend reconsider that reply, in view of the exorbitant profits being made by insurance companies which are exploiting the needs of pensioners?
  Lieut.-Colonel Colville: I am afraid I cannot give that undertaking, and I would remind the hon. Member that it is a very complicated question indeed, as the speech to which I have referred brings out.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    JUVENILES (AFTER-CARE ARRANGEMENTS).
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Young Men's Christian Association is setting up a committee for the after-care of boys passing through their hostels; whether he is satisfied that the whole after-care scheme for juveniles who come to London from the distressed areas is working satisfactorily; and whether he proposes to make any alterations in its operation in the near future?
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): I am not aware of any proposal to set up a new committee for the aftercare of transferred boys passing through the hostels of the Young Men's Christian Association. The association already have an adequate organisation for supervising the welfare of boys living in hostels, while for juveniles living in lodgings the Department has the assistance of after-care committees and voluntary organisations. I am satisfied that these welfare arrangements are working satisfactorily. They are kept under constant review and are extended and improved from time to time in the light of experience.
    Mr. Parker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that over 15,000 juveniles have been transferred from distressed
    1012
    areas to the Southern counties in the last year, and that there is considerable discontent about the care that is taken of some of them?
    Mr. Brown: I am not aware of anything of the kind. Perhaps the hon. Member is mixing up those transferred under schemes, for whom we make the most elaborate arrangements, with some who have been transferred on their own account, for whom we have no responsibility.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the best way to care for them is to provide work for them at home?
    Mr. Brown: I agree that that is the ideal thing, but it is better to provide work elsewhere than to let them rot at home without any work to do at all.

    DOMESTIC TRAINING CENTRES.
    Miss Cazaletasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the difficulty in obtaining suitable recruits for the domestic training centres, he will consider filling vacancies with girls from other than the Special Areas?
    Mr. E. Brown: Eligibility for the residential domestic training centres is not limited to girls coming from the Special Areas, but is open to suitable candidates from any part of the country. There are seven of these centres, with a capacity of 295 places. About 130 of these places are at present unfilled.

  SHOP ASSISTANTS' DISPUTE (NORTHUMBERLAND AND DURHAM).
  Mr. Leslieasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that representations have been made by the Shop Assistants Union to four multiple grocery firms in Northumberland and Durham for reasonable conditions of employment; and what steps he proposes to take to bring the parties together in order to avoid the possibility of a serious dispute taking place?
  Mr. E. Brown: The dispute to which the hon. Member refers has been reported to my Department, and the matter is at present under consideration.

  RETAIL DISTRIBUTIVE TRADES (JOINT COUNCIL).
  Mr. Leslieasked the Minister of Labour what is the position in regard to the discussions which are taking place between employers' organisations and the trade unions under the auspices of the Ministry of Labour to deal with the question of wages and conditions in the distributive trades?
  Mr. E. Brown: I am glad to say that at a meeting of the employers' organisations and trade unions in Scotland last week it was decided to set up a Joint Council for the Retail Distributive Trades in Scotland. A meeting between employers' organisations and trade unions is also taking place to-day in London.

  KAVIRONDO (PETITION).
  Mr. T. Williams (for Mr. Paling)asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has considered the petition dated 25th January, 1937, submitted by the North Kavirondo Central Association, to be presented to this House, praying inter alia that ex-chief Mumia may be made the paramount chief of Kavirondo; and what action he proposes to take thereon?
  Mr. Ormsby-Gore: A petition was sent to me with a request that I should submit it to this House. As, however, the form in which it had been prepared was not in accordance with the Rules of this House governing the presentation of petitions, I requested the Governor to return it to the signatories and to remind them of the correct form and procedure, which had already been explained to them.

BILLS PRESENTED.
  POOR' S ALLOTMENTS IN WALTON-UPON-THAMES BILL,
  "to confirm a Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the application or management of the Charity called or know as The Poor's Allotments, in the Ancient Parish of Walton-upon-Thames, in the County of Surrey," presented by Mr. Clement Davies; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 117.]
  MAGDALEN HOSPITAL BILL,
  "to confirm a Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the application or management of the Charity called The Magdalen Hospital, in the County of London," presented by Mr. Clement Davies; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 118.]

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT IN CONNECTION WITH HOSPITALS AND INSTITUTIONS).
Mr. Kirby: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the limitation of hours of work for persons employed in or in connection with hospitals and institutions under the control of local authorities."
I ask the indulgence of the House in undertaking this task for the first time. I would point out that the Bill relates entirely to hospitals and institutions that are controlled by local authorities and does not in any way apply to voluntary hospitals or institutions of that character. I am sure that it would be the wish of many of my hon. Friends, and it certainly would be my own wish, to have it cover voluntary establishments as well, but we realise the difficulties that a Bill of this sort might bring to those organisations, and for that reason they are deliberately excluded from the Bill. This Bill provides for a maximum working week of 48 hours for the outdoor staffs of hospitals and similar institutions controlled by local authorities, and, in the event of urgency or emergency, for those hours to be exceeded providing that overtime is paid at the usual scales as provided for in agreements between employers and workpeople. So far as the indoor staffs are concerned, the Bill provides for 96 hours work in each fortnight, and there are the same provisions in regard to overtime as are applied to the ordinary outdoor staffs.
It may be asked why it should be 48 hours per week for the outdoor staff and 96 hours per fortnight for the indoor staff, and the best explanation that I can give is to say that the work of the inside staff requires a little more elasticity, so far as the arrangements for their duties are concerned. I think it will be generally agreed that, so far as the

1015
nursing and other indoor staffs are concerned, it is desirable that a line not too strict in character should be laid down for them in order that the emergencies of the nursing service should be provided for, if necessary, and with a 96-hours fortnight instead of a 48-hours week I think it will be found that there is a much wider scope for the indoor staff on their various duties and shifts than if it was confined to a 48-hours week. We believe that so far as that provision is concerned, it will be a special boon to the smaller institutions and hospitals, where they have a very small number of persons to play about with. The other provision in the Bill is that every worker, whether employed on the indoor staff or on the outdoor staff, should have a rest day in every week, a full period of 24 hours off duty for every calendar week that is worked, in order that they shall have the ordinary rest day which is customary in services outside those of hospitals and such institutions.
It may be asked why such a Bill should be introduced. All I can say is that the conditions in hospitals and institutions of a similar character have been widely investigated during the past two years by many persons and organisations, including social workers, trade unions, members of local authorities and organisations representing the medical and nursing professions. These investigations go to show that there is chaos generally in their management, which requires rationalising and regularising in a great number of ways, and particularly in regard to hours. One of the amazing facts which emerged from these investigations is that the outdoor staffs enjoy very much better conditions and shorter hours than most of the indoor staff, and in regard to that I want to say that I am sure we shall be unanimous in wishing to protect the men and women who, with a high sense of public duty and great courage and devotion, perform these untiring and unselfish duties in our great public hospitals and institutions.
The fact is that at the present moment those people who work outside these institutions, motormen and ambulance attendants, by reason of the fact that they are in a trade union, enjoy better hours and conditions of labour than many of the nursing staff employed inside, and we are particularly anxious that so far as
1016
the inside staff is concerned the Bill should become an Act of Parliament very soon. Even if there are hon. Members who are not prepared to go as far as the Bill goes in regard to the outdoor staff, I hope they will agree to the Motion, so that the conditions under which nursing staffs now work shall be fully investigated by the House. These are, possibly, the only explanations I need give of the Bill at this stage, but I hope the House will allow me to conclude by giving quotations from two letters I have received which relate particularly to the conditions of the nursing staffs in hospitals and institutions. The first quotation is from a national organiser of a responsible trade union catering for this class of worker. He says:
"Owing to the long hours, which are aggravated particularly by split duties, or spread-over system, a number of authorities are finding it almost impossible to recruit adequate nursing staffs for their hospitals. The most recent case I know of in this connection is that of the—county council, whose chief officer reported that he was unable to recruit the necessary number of nurses to staff their hospitals and institutions, and that in fact, at the present time they are short staffed."
The other quotation is from a lady member of a local authority. She says:
"The facts are that great difficulty is being experienced at the moment throughout the country in inducing women to enter institutional life owing to the prevailing conditions. With regard to the nurses a very acute shortage of entrants to the profession is being experienced especially by municipal hospitals. It would be true to say that if a serious epidemic occurred in London or in one of the large provincial towns there would not be a sufficient staff to man the hospitals. … The reasons given for this are long hours of duty spread over insufficient leisure time and so on."
In view of the time, I will conclude by asking the House to give me leave to introduce the Bill, in order that its proposals may be further investigated and explored.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Kirby, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Adamson, Mr. Hicks, Mr. Dobbie, and Mr. Thorne.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT IN CONNECTION WITH HOSPITALS AND INSTITUTIONS).

  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT IN CONNECTION WITH HOSPITALS AND INSTITUTIONS) BILL,
  "to provide for the limitation of hours of work for persons employed in or in connection with hospitals and institutions under the control of local authorities,

  1017
  presented accordingly, and read the First Time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 23rd April, and to be printed. [Bill 119.]

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE A.
  Colonel Grettonreported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Summary Procedure (Matrimonial and other Matters) Bill): Mr. Palmer; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Shakespeare.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

SITUATION AT BILBAO.
3.56 p.m.
Mr. Attlee: I beg to move,
"That this House, taking note of the statement of the Prime Minister on the situation at Bilbao, deplores the failure of His Majesty's Government to give protection to British merchant ships on their lawful occasions."
We are moving this Motion because of the action of the Government in warning British ships that they should not enter the port of Bilbao, and that if they do so the Government cannot protect them. We hold that this action is a surrender of the rights which this country has always maintained on behalf of our shipping, and is an acquiescence in a grave breach of international law. Let the House consider what the the facts of the situation. The Government in control at Bilbao and of the territorial waters around Bilbao is part of the constitutional Government of Spain, and that Government has all the rights of a sovereign State. Those rights we have always maintained. His Majesty's Government, in agreement with other Powers, have taken upon themselves, in the interest, they say, of maintaining peace, to shorten and abrogate those rights by the Non-Intervention Agreement, and in pursuance of that Agreement they have forbidden our nationals to take arms and munitions to Spain. They are now considering putting into force a special organisation to enforce that prohibition. They have also declared against sending volunteers to Spain, but they have not forbidden the nationals of this country or the masters of British ships to take food for the women and children of Spain. They have not forbidden us to trade with Spain, and our ships are free to go to any Spanish port to trade, provided they are not carrying munitions or volunteers.
On the other hand, what are the forces of General Franco? Those forces have no status whatever in international law. They are rebels against the government of their country. We have not recognised them as belligerents. They have no rights as belligerents, and I trust that they will never be given any rights as belligerents. The Prime Minister said on Monday that the Government cannot recognise or concede belligerent rights. Even if they were belligerents, no blockade of Bilbao has been declared. To declare a blockade there must be a
1030
formal declaration and prize courts must be set up, before which ships infringing the blockade may be brought. If a blockade has been declared, it must be effective, and, even if the blockade is effective, there is no right whatever in international law to sink neutral ships at sight. I understand that is the position in international law. What happened? A British ship on its lawful business was turned back by a rebel ship to St. Jean de Luz.
On Sunday the Cabinet met; the British Government met, the Government of the greatest maritime country in the world, the Government of the country which keeps a great Fleet for the express purpose of protecting British shipping. The issue, as I see pit, was simple: British ships proceeding on their lawful occasions had been turned back by rebels. Are we to protect them? Or are we to acquiesce? There is no question of starting a world war; there is no question of trouble with a great foreign Power. The threat comes from the rebels, whose principal land forces are on the run—rebels who have no great naval strength. That is the position. The Prime Minister comes down to the House and makes a firm declaration that we cannot tolerate any interference with British shipping at sea. The White Ensign is hoisted and then the White Flag is run up. British ships are warned that the Government cannot protect them. They are to all intents and purposes told that they must not go to Bilbao. General Franco may not be able to make an effective blockade, but the British Government will oblige him by doing so.
That is a very friendly action to General Franco, and it is interesting to see what his response is. General Franco promptly sends out by radio a message that any British ship found in Spanish territorial waters will be seized or sunk. That does not seem to have provoked any response at all from the British Government. But the action of the British Government has provoked a very wide reaction throughout the world. There was widespread amazement that this country should step down from the position that it has always taken with regard to the right of vessels at sea, and there is widespread suspicion that the British Government which is prepared to take action of that kind must be backing General Franco. The Prime Minister gave his reasons. The reasons were, fear of

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aircraft and fear of mines. We are apparently to acquiesce in the laying of mines before a port of the Government of Spain. This country has always protested against the indiscriminate laying of mines to the danger of neutral shipping. We have always asserted the principle of international law that it is forbidden to lay mines, whether within or without territorial waters.
The question is, on what evidence are the Government acting as to the laying of mines? It is curious that the Prime Minister seems to have such very precise information on the point, because the Government never know anything about the Spanish situation. If I had suggested in the early part of the week that General Franco was recklessly laying mines that might destroy neutral shipping, the under-Secretary of State would have told me that I must not believe everything I see in the Press. I want to know, I want to have a clear answer? What is the information that the Government have and what is the source of that information? Does it come from those curious people, our own consular agents, who seem so silent on the question of Italian troops landing? Does it come from British ships? We can never get any information when the Foreign Secretary answers questions in this House; the Government always know nothing. But on this point they seem to know all about it; they tell us what really happened; they say that Bilbao is in close proximity to the war zone, and there is a constant risk to shipping from the bombing of aircraft, and that the laying of mines by both sides in the approaches to Bilbao is now a grave risk to any ship seeking to enter the harbour unless mine sweeping is first carried out in Spanish territorial waters.
I hope that whoever replies for the Government will tell us when this state of affairs began and how long it has continued, because I have a statement here that is in entire contradiction. I propose to read it to the House. It comes from Senor Jose Antonio de Aguirre, who is the President of the Basque Republic, part of the Spanish Republic. He makes some very categorical statements. I hope that whoever replies for the Government will not evade these questions but will answer them, and will give us chapter and verse if these statements are denied. This is the statement:
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"The Basque Government, fighting for democracy and Basque liberty "—
I suppose that even the friends of Fascism below the Gangway opposite will not suggest that the Catholic Basques are Red Communists—
"is compelled to draw your attention to the following facts of interest in the forthcoming Debate in the House of Commons: No foreign or Spanish ship has ever been detained or fired upon in Basque territorial waters."
If that is wrong, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give us the names of the ships that have been fired upon.
"There are no mines laid either by the enemies or by us in the entrance or exit of the Port of Bilbao. In the first fortnight of April there have been 26 inward, including six British, and 32 outward sailings in the Port of Bilbao, including six British, all without molestation or difficulty in our territorial waters."
I have here a list of those ships and a list of the Spanish ships. There are 19 of them, mostly coastal vessels coming from Santander, and here are the names of the British vessels: "Blackhill," "Oakgrove," "Mostyn," "Thorpehall," "Brinckburn" and "Olavus."
"Every night armed trawlers, aided by powerful searchlights from the shore, keep watch over the Port of Bilbao. It is enough to demonstrate the efficiency of this service to state that throughout the civil war no commercial vessel has been mined in our port or territorial waters. Powerful coastal batteries keep units of the rebel fleet over 15 miles from the shore, aided by our destroyers and submarines. Even to-day, 13th April, several ships, including a British ship, the 'Olavus,' have left the Port of Bilbao without molestation."
This is a port where the danger of mines is so great that ships cannot possibly move at all.
"Guaranteeing, as we do, the safety of British ships within our own waters, forced to assume that if they are unwilling to enter the Port of Bilbao it is due to the inability of the British Fleet to protect them on the high seas. The Basques, therefore, appeal to your sense of justice and fair play'—
they are appealing to the British nation—
"to lay these facts before the House of Commons. Do not forget that Basque shipping worked for Great Britain throughout the difficult days of the Great War when the danger that existed was real. I am sure that the Basques can depend upon your right spirit of justice and friendship, to a country as ours, small but democratic and independent."
I have also seen a member of the Basque Government and questioned him, and he confirms that statement. We want to know from whence comes the British

1033
Government's information. Are they simply acting on what the insurgents have told them? Because that is a very simple way; it is what is called blockade on the cheap. Any country has only to inform the British Government that it proposes to sow a few mines and the British Fleet will go down and do the blockading for them. I want to know when this information came. Suppose that it is really true, what is the danger and what is the way to meet it? Obviously if the Basque Government are laying these mines they know the way in and out. I do not suppose that the British Government suggest that the Basques are laying mines in order to stop neutral ships coming in with food. Therefore, I never quite saw the point of saying that mines were being laid by both sides, unless it was to suggest that the Basque Government, who are in urgent need of supplies, were sowing the seas with mines everywhere, without knowing where they were.
Can nothing be done? Must we acquiesce? Norway apparently can act; Norway is sending a mine-sweeper. Why cannot we send one? Our warships have paravanes. Could not they protect our vessels? Is it suggested that they could not go because they could not enter territorial waters? Has any suggestion been made to the Basque Government? I wonder whether the British Government would take just this attitude if these things were done by anyone else but General Franco. Remember these things have happened before. Let me refer the House to the case of the "Huascar," the Peruvian ironclad, in 1877. There you had the revolt of a Peruvian vessel against the Peruvian Government, and it seized a British ship and took coal from it. It was engaged by vessels of the British Fleet. It was so close to the Peruvian coast that the British ships had to withhold fire for fear of hitting the Peruvian town of Ylo. Failing to sink the "Huascar," the British admiral despatched a torpedo boat to attack the "Huascar" when she was actually inside the Peruvian port of Iquique. It was only the surrender of the "Huascar" which prevented actual firing right up close to the coast.
The Government of that day thought it was perfectly right in protecting a British vessel, even within territorial waters.
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There are other precedents even later than that. The German steamer "Kamerun" was stopped on the high seas by the Spanish Government and the German Government instructed their commander to use force if necessary. I suppose that the British Government would have instructed the ship to go to St. Jean de Luz. Would the British Government have stood this action if it had been done by the Spanish Government? What is the explanation? Are the Government pro-Franco? We must remember that the First Lord of the Admiralty is the man who trailed the honour of this country in the dust over Abyssinia. The action taken now seems to be very remarkable. We have sent the "Hood" there. What for? I never quite know why we keep a Navy to-day, and if so why we send it anywhere. Why does the First Lord send the "Hood" there? Is it because it flies the flag? If so, which flag?
The fact is that affairs in Spain are in a critical position. To support Franco—and the right hon. Gentleman's answer was nothing but support for Franco—is to encourage Signor Mussolini in his aggression. I think that Signor Mussolini is doubtful as to whether he should not cut his losses and get out. There is the possibility of having volunteers withdrawn on both sides, and if they were so withdrawn, the civil war would end very soon. Consequently, the right hon. Gentleman's policy is to try to get the volunteers on both sides withdrawn as soon as possible. The results of the Government's action, however, will be to encourage interference. The British Government are always on the side of the advocates of force, and always against international law.
The position is that this brave people, the Basques, who are old friends of ours, are fighting for their liberty. The Prime Minister talks a great deal about the great fight that is going on for democracy. In this fight, what is he doing on behalf of democracy? In that conflict of rival 'isms which is dividing up the world, no one suggests that the Basques stand for Communism, but everybody knows what General Franco stands for. The Basques stand for democracy. The land attack of General Franco is failing in that area, and his hopes depend on starving the women and children—and the British Government are going to help. I wonder

1035
whether hon. Members are proud of the record of the Government. The Government pledged themselves to help the Abyssinians, but they left them to be massacred. It is now openly confessed and boasted by the chief agent, General De Bono, that the whole of the attack on Abyssinia was planned long before it was carried out. The conquest of the liberties of the Spanish people was planned long before Franco's revolt. There is plenty of evidence of the intrigues of the Fascist Powers.
Are we going to sit by and help in the murder of another free people? Are we going to help by the same modern and up-to-date method, the killing of women and children—in one case by poison gas and in another case by starvation? The Government have no right to put British sailors under this humiliation. They are asking British sailors to stand by and watch while men, women and children are starved to death, with the Government preventing those who would go to help them. We move this Motion because we feel that this action of the Government is worthy of the greatest condemnation by the House, with all its traditions of liberty.
4.20 p.m.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Simon): Now that the terms of the Motion have been put on the Paper, and now that the House has heard the speech of the Leader of the Opposition in moving it, I desire at once to offer some considerations which have been entirely omitted from his review of the situation. I believe it will be possible for me to show—and to show to the satisfaction both of the House and the country—that the action that has been taken in reference to the Bilbao matter was completely justified, and that this Motion of Censure should be emphatically rejected. In listening to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, I was puzzled to know whether, for the purpose of the Debate to-day, he was stating that he accepts or that he rejects the principle of the policy of non-intervention.
Mr. Thurtle: That has nothing to do with it.
Sir J. Simon: For my part—and I think I am not alone—I think that the speech made by the Leader of the Op-
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position leaves us in doubt about that. Therefore, I will begin by making it entirely plain that the purpose of His Majesty's Government, in common with M. Blum's Government in France, is to uphold the policy of non-intervention
Mr. Lloyd George: That has nothing to do with it.
Sir J. Simon: If my right hon. Friend will bear with me for a moment, I will deal with his point. [An HON. MEMBER: "Did you consult the French Government?"] May I continue my remarks? If we are to judge this matter fairly, we must be prepared to put it in its proper setting in relation to the policy of nonintervention, and for two or three minutes I would like to remind the House of certain considerations of which we were not reminded in the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. Last August, when notes were exchanged between M. Blum's Government and His Majesty's Government, the purpose of the two Governments was declared. I invite the House to listen to what is the purpose, as declared by the Government of France and by this Government at the very begining of this matter. The purpose was stated to be:
"To avoid all complications which might prejudice the good relations between nations, and to refrain strictly from all interference, direct or indirect, in the internal affairs of Spain."
That is the declared policy of nonintervention. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to bear that in mind when we come to the particular instance that we are now discussing. It is true that in the carrying out of that purpose agreements were first made of a more limited character, and that the first agreement dealt with nothing but arms and ammunition. Food is not in that category. Later on we passed an Act of Parliament—the Merchant Shipping (Spanish Frontiers Observation) Act—to implement as well as we could the undertakings which we gave last November. The Non-Intervention Committee was set up, and most strenuous work has been done by Lord Plymouth and his colleagues for the purpose of extending agreements about nonintervention in other directions—propaganda, finance and so on.
I would like the House to notice that the declared purpose of the Government,

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as well as of the Government of France and other Governments, extends to this, to refrain strictly from all interference, direct or indirect, in the internal affairs of Spain. In listening to the right hon. Gentleman just now, I began to wonder whether he and his friends really supposed that this action of the British Navy and the British Government, in dealing with the situation as they found it on the coast of Spain and in warning and counselling British shipping not to expose itself to the dangers there threatened, was done only last week. I will remind the House of a very well-known instance, occurring not so long ago, which it is very necessary for us to bear in mind before we pass judgment on this matter. Let me say first that, if we take the view that this country ought in all circumstances and at any length to help one side—[Interruption]. If one takes the view that the proper course for the British Government is always to help one side in all circumstances—[Interruption]. Perhaps hon. Members will allow me to make my point. If one takes the view that the Government should help one side, but strictly abstain from giving any help to the other, that is a different situation. I am putting this case upon the known basis which we have always declared, that the policy which we are trying to apply is the policy of nonintervention on either side.
May I remind the House of what happened last August and September? Last August, the greater naval force in Spanish hands appeared to be under the complete control of the Spanish Government. At that time, as far as any Spanish men-of-war had any, I will not say command of the sea, but any local control, they were the warships of the Spanish Government, which were exercising that control in the Mediterranean. I have no doubt that the House will recall that they announced that they intended to use their ships for the purpose of restraining the passage of merchant vessels to certain portions of the Spanish coast. They announced, for example, that Ceuta and Melilla, in Spanish Morocco, would thus be treated, and they proposed to act in the same way in regard to certain ports in Southern Spain. It is simply a question of fact. It is a fact that the men-of-war in the hands of the Spanish Government were at that time engaged in warning British merchant
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shipping that they were determined to put obstacles in its way if it attempted to approach those regions. [An HON. MEMBER: "Which side are you on?"] I hope the hon. Member will be good enough to listen to me. Not only that, but they declared that they would do their utmost to establish, in fact, a blockade. In those circumstances British shipping, which looks to the British Government to give it information, advice and warning, was given information, advice and warning.
Before we rush to pronounce judgment about this new case, I would ask the House for a moment to consider what happened in that case. This is what happened. In the first place, the British Government, though the Board of Trade and through the Royal Navy, directed British shipping destined for those coasts and areas instead to call at either Gibraltar or Malta. They were to go there in order to get advice before proceeding. The advice which they were given and the advice which was communicated to shipowners and published in all necessary quarters was this. First, if such ships were proceeding to a port which was known to be watched more or less continuously by the Spanish ships, then they were advised not to proceed there. [HON. HEMBERS: "What were they carrying?"] A de facto blockade has, of course, nothing to do with what ships are carrying. It is an announcement that ships will be prevented from proceeding. The British Admiralty and the British Board of Trade at the same time issued advice with reference to British merchant shipping proceeding down the Mediterranean or to the other coasts of Spain. The second statement was this. If it was not known to what extent the port to which the ships wished to proceed was being watched, then those ships were to be told of the uncertainty and warned that any attempt which they made to enter such port must be entirely at their own risk.
Mr. Attlee: The right hon. Gentleman is attempting to draw a parallel. He has told us that there was a definite blockade in that case by a government, which he says was more or less effective, but here we have a specific statement by the Prime Minister that no blockade is recognised. Therefore, the conditions are entirely different.
Sir J. Simon: I know the temptation to interrupt. I am often tempted myself, but the right hon. Gentleman in this case interrupts without any valid reason. I never said, and the British Government never said, that when the Spanish Government, which was not recognised as engaged as a belligerent, took upon itself to say that it would endeavour to establish a de facto blockade the blockade was admitted to be lawful. We have never admitted it. If the right hon. Gentleman will follow out the matter at his leisure he will find that, when one says that belligerent rights are not admitted or conceded, that applies to both sides. There is no more right in a government that is fighting a civil war to interfere as belligerents with ships on the high seas because they are a government, than there is such a right on the part of insurgents. Both sides are in exactly the same position, as I think every responsible sailor knows.
Thus we see that in the latter part of last year a situation arose in which British ships going about their lawful occasions were threatened with a danger to which it was thought necessary to call their attention and in reference to which directions were given. Those directions took the form of saying that the ships in question must go to certain ports other than ports within the area of conflict or trouble. They were able to get the information which they needed and they were, in fact, advised, as to the course they should take. The House will know that that course was taken and there was not, as far as I know, the slightest whisper of a suggestion that in taking it, we were not maintaining the doctrine of non-intervention. Now I want to know from hon. Members, if that is right, how can it possibly be said that this Bilbao case relates to an entirely new condition of things, and that we are adopting an entirely novel policy and betraying the principles on which we have declared we would try to act and therefore exposing ourselves to the censure of hon. Gentlemen opposite.
Let me give a brief account of the situation at Bilbao. I have provided myself with such details as I could obtain. I may say that I have got my information as far as I can from the Admiralty and I do not think that any hon. Member will wish to challenge it. On Tuesday, 6th April, that is, eight days ago,
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His Majesty's Ship "Blanche" reported that there was a close blockade of Bilbao and that that blockade seemed likely to be effective. The commander, the man on the spot, reported that serious incidents were likely to arise if merchant ships attempted to enter the port. Does anybody in the House desire to suggest that there is some better authority, such as a telegram from the Basque Government, than the knowledge of those on the spot as to what was happening? That was the report made eight days ago by the responsible commander of a British ship of war in the area, whose duty it was to form his judgment and to communicate his knowledge as best he could. That report having been made to the Admiralty and to the Government of this country, His Majesty's Ship "Blanche" was instructed to inform any British merchant ships that were going to Bilbao of the state of affairs. Does any one say that was wrong? Whatever else we may think, surely the officer was entitled, being as I say the man on the spot, to give that information, in all honesty, under the instructions of the Admiralty, to British shipping in that neighbourhood.
Mr. Benn: He ordered them to remain in port.
Sir J. Simon: If my right hon. Friend will wait he will get full satisfaction on the point about which he wants information, but we must take the facts in their order. The commander was further instructed to advise any such British shipping most strongly not to attempt to enter the port, and I believe that several British vessels did in fact go to St. Jean de Luz. Last Friday—and I am now coming to the point which the right hon. Gentleman has in mind—the same ship, the "Blanche," reported that there were four British merchant ships lying at St. Jean de Luz—which, as the House knows, is not in Spanish territory but is on the extreme south of the French coast on the other side of the Pyrenees—and that those ships were waiting to proceed to Bilbao. He further pointed out that, if they did go there, they would encounter a de facto blockade.
Mr. David Grenfell: Of mines or ships?
Sir J. Simon: Of ships.
Mr. Thurtle: On the high seas?
Sir J. Simon: I am sure the House would sooner have the facts stated without interruption. I ask the House to observe that up to this point we have got something which, if you accept the principle of non-intervention whichever side is involved, is closely parallel to what happened in the Mediterranean in the previous August and September. You have merchant ships diverted, on the advice of the Admiralty, to another port, and you have warnings given to them as to the danger which they would run if they proceeded on their journey. On Friday it was decided by the Government here to inform the British ships concerned that His Majesty's Government desired them, not to enter Basque ports for the time being on account of the dangerous situation. Following the usual procedure, that decision having been taken, the Board of Trade issued instructions. I rather think instructions were issued through the Board of Trade to the consular authorities to communicate the message. In the meantime, before the full message from the Board of Trade had reached there, the commander of the "Blanche," who was the person responsible on the spot, issued a letter to the merchant ships lying in the harbour of St. Jean de Luz. The House would probably prefer me to read the terms of the letter straight away without elaboration. It was as follows:
"You are not to leave St. Jean de Luz for any port in the hands of the Spanish Government on the north coast of Spain until further orders. This order will be confirmed in due course by the Board of Trade through the British Consul."
I infer that he had already got some sort of abbreviated message or signal from the Admiralty to indicate that there would be a message coming from the Board of Trade and he therefore decided, I think perfectly rightly, that his duty was to hold those ships there until that message was received. The Board of Trade message came through the Consul-General at Bordeaux and shortly afterwards—the moment he received it—he cancelled the letter, or order if you like, which he had given and substituted for it the direct communication from the Board of Trade, the effect of which I have just given to the House. The consequence is that steps have been taken to dissuade ships from proceeding to Bilbao, just as we thought it was our duty to dissuade merchant ships from proceeding last autumn
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to the coast of Morocco—in exactly the same way, for exactly the same reasons and in pursuance of exactly the same policy. [Interruption.] I want to put this point clearly to the House and I do not ask more than that hon. Members should see that it is a perfectly fair point to make as I am stating the case here. I say again, that if one is prepared to accept the application of the policy of non-intervention—that we are not going to treat the two sides differently—then it follows, necessarily, that there is no ground whatever for this Motion of Censure. We have acted in this case as I say from exactly the same motives and in the same manner and I believe with the same results as in the previous case.
Mr. Maxton: You had a special Cabinet meeting because it was all simple routine.
Sir J. Simon: The British Government would be very greatly to blame if they did not regard these matters seriously and take the greatest possible trouble to consider all the circumstances. It is true that we had a Cabinet meeting on Sunday.
Mr. Maxton: It is all so easy. Just leave it to the man on the spot.
Sir J. Simon: I think the burden of responsibility in these cases makes one rather more conscious of the efforts which have to be made.
Sir Archibald Sinclair Sir Archibald Sinclair rose—
Sir J. Simon: Perhaps my right hon. Friend will not mind if I complete this point. I think it would be more convenient. I hope there will be no blockade and that we shall be allowed free passage here. I wanted to say in this connection something on the subject of mines because it is very important. So far, I have built my case on more general grounds.
Mr. A. V. Alexander: Can we have the Board of Trade message?
Sir J. Simon: I will see whether I can get it later.
Mr. Noel-Baker: The right hon. Gentleman is about to leave the subject of blockade by ships and to go to that of the blockade by mines. Before he leaves the blockade by ships we should like to know what was the substituted order given

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by the Board of Trade instead of the order given by the captain of the "Blanche," which was cancelled.
Sir A. Sinclair: The right hon. Gentleman would not give way to me. That was just the point I wished to raise. We were very anxious to get hold of the Admiralty Order, and the right hon. Gentleman has been good enough to give it; but, in giving it, he made it clear that the order was subsequently withdrawn in favour of an order issued by the Board of Trade. It is vital that we should know for the purposes of this Debate exactly what the order was.
Sir J. Simon: I have not the order textually before me, but if hon. Members had favoured me with their attention they would know that I read the substance of the message without any challenge. If anyone wants me to get the message I do not mind in the least. I have now had it handed to me. What I said earlier was that on Friday it was decided to inform the ships concerned that His Majesty's Government desired them not to enter Basque ports for the time being on account of the dangerous situation there. The actual terms of the telegrams sent by the Board of Trade to His Majesty's Consul at Bordeaux on, Saturday afternoon, l0th April, was this:
"Please arrange immediately for local Consul to inform British ships now in St. Jean de Luz that British Government desire them not to enter Basque ports for the time being on account of the dangerous situation there and to wait at St. Jean for further communication."[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) cannot behave himself, I must ask him to leave the House.
Mr. J. Jones: The hon. Member for Silvertown wishes to apologise if he has made any mistakes, but he has not made half as many as the right hon. Gentleman.
Sir J. Simon: We all make mistakes, I as much as anybody, but on this occasion I happen to be right. The message which I gave the House a few minutes ago turns out to be word for word the message that was actually sent.
I want to say a few words about mines because this is perhaps rather more specially a question which makes the
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case of Spain different from the Mediterranean case last autumn. This is the situation so far as we have been able to ascertain it. There is no doubt—and I will presently give some good reasons for saying this—that the area of approach to Bilbao has been mined. I am repeating information provided by the Admiralty from the spot. There is reason to think that mines of one sort or another have also been placed at Santander. If they are there, they have been placed there by the authorities in control of that place, which, as far as I know at the moment, are the Basque authorities. Be that as it may, there is no doubt—and the House will take the information which comes directly to the Admiralty from the ships on the spot—
Mr. Benn: Not from insurgent sources?
Sir J. Simon: Why should it be supposed that in this difficult matter the British Government, who have British officers and sailors of vast experience there, should spend their time refusing to listen to them but listening to the insurgents?
Mr. Benn: I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why it should be so supposed. It is because the Board of Trade this morning issued a notice containing a portentous list of mines which they themselves said they had published from insurgent sources.
Sir J. Simon: I am sure the House will agree that, however smart that interruption may be, it has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying. When I stand here and say that the British Admiralty and the British Navy make reports to a certain effect in a corner of the world where they are in the best position to know the truth, I cannot imagine why anybody supposes that we disregard their reports and listen to somebody else's. If the Board of Trade had learned that the insurgents say they have put a field of mines in such and such a place, what would anybody say of the Board of Trade if they did not take any notice of it? The right hon. Gentleman opposite apparently considers that the Board of Trade should never have mentioned what the insurgents have announced.
Mr. Attlee: We have had it stated by the Prime Minister that there was reason

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to believe that there was danger of mines from both the insurgents and the Basque Government at Bilbao. The right hon. Gentleman has now told us that his information from the Admiralty is that mines have been laid by the Basque Government at Santander, but he did not state whether or not the Admiralty has reason to believe that mines have been laid by the Basque Government at Bilbao, as they pointedly denied. I should like to know whether they have that information.
Sir J. Simon: I will deal with that, but I should really like to be able to make a continuous statement. As far as I am able to inform the right hon. Gentleman, the information which was given by the Prime Minister was the deduction that was drawn from the report that was made from the ships in that area. The Prime Minister said that he was informed there had been laying of mines by both sides in the approaches to Bilbao. That is, in fact, the report which the Admiralty gave of what they believed to be the situation. If it be the case that mines have been laid by one side and have not been laid by the other, I accept the correction, though why that should be supposed to reduce the risk to British ships I cannot see. Let me state some definite facts which the right hon. Gentleman will perhaps note. There is no doubt about this. General Franco's ships have got mines. There is no doubt that he has got minelayers in his Fleet. There is no doubt that these minelayers are engaged in laying mines. In the message which the right hon. Gentleman read something was said about searchlights. What are they for? Among other things, they are commonly used by those on the coast and headlands for the purpose of finding out if there be a minelayer operating at night. The message also included some references to armed trawlers. If my understanding is right, armed trawlers are frequently used as mine sweepers.
I state to the House, from information we have received from our authorities on the spot, that mines have been laid, are being laid, if not by day, then by night, by the minelayers of Franco's ships, and that there is, minesweeping going on by various vessels on behalf of the Government authorities. If anybody accepts the principle of non-inter-
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vention, does he seriously say that, if the British Navy were now to contribute its quota of minesweepers in order to join in the sweeping up by one side of mines laid by the other, that does not go by the name of taking sides? I will give the House further reasons why this is the serious view of the Admiralty. From information we have received, two or three of the Basque mine sweepers have been blown up in endeavouring to sweep away these mines. That, at least, goes to show that the mines are there.
I will give a further contribution to this subject which the House should consider. The House is aware that the British Navy has been for months past discharging a great humanitarian work off the coast of Spain. It has been removing the innocent victims of this dreadful tragedy to places of safety without taking any sides in the struggle. Does anybody doubt that it would be perfectly willing to go on doing it. The British Navy has already moved from the north coast of Spain 17,000 innocent people. Within the last two months, on the advice of the Navy itself, it has been thought unsafe, owing to the danger of mines, for any of His Majesty's ships to enter the ports of Bilbao and Santander for this purpose, and during the last two months there has been no evacuation from those ports.
I put it to the good sense of anybody in this House whether anyone really supposes that the British Navy, which has been discharging that humanitarian work with satisfaction and pride to us all, has given it up without any reason? Is it not perfectly obvious that if the Admiralty has felt it necessary for the time being not to risk our ships in that area, it is because there is something there which is dangerous to shipping? I cannot understand how anybody can have any doubt about that. Surely that fact of itself is sufficient to show that the danger of mines is a reality, or, at any rate, that the anxiety which the Admiralty entertains on this subject is a genuine anxiety—not an invention or an excuse—but a genuine anxiety which it must bear in mind when offering advice to British ships in the neighbourhood. Let me make this matter plain. There can be no doubt about this. Of course, the British Navy can force its way into any port in Spain. I am not suggesting for a moment that the British

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Navy cannot sweep things away, and make a clear passage. Of course it can. But it can only do it by bringing into action a great fleet of minesweepers. It can only do it if it is prepared to abandon the policy of non-intervention.
Mr. Grenfell: The right hon. Gentleman has frequently reiterated that point, but he owes it to the House to state categorically whether the Non-Intervention Pact binds anybody to prevent the admission of food to Spain.
Sir J. Simon: The hon. Gentleman has not quite followed the point I am making. I reminded the House at the beginning that the purpose of the French Government and ourselves was to abstain from intervention of any kind. It is perfectly true that, so far as we have signed agreements, the agreements are dealing with certain categories of things. That has never been the point here. The point is: You may take, if you like, the line that, Apart from strict written agreement, we intend to push in with whatever force we have got, and at whatever risk if we go on, for the purpose of doing what we think it right to do, though it benefits one side and hurts another. The other view—it is the view of the Government and I am asking support for it—is that our primary duty in this business is to be faithful to the declared purpose of non-intervention and so to conduct our proceedings that we, at any rate, cannot be honestly and correctly accused of having disregarded it.
I realise entirely the point which no doubt weighs on some minds. The right hon. Gentleman said it is all very well to declare that you will not recognise belligerent rights, but after all if you adopt this more prudent course is there any possibility that one side or the other will claim that you are thereby recognising such rights? That is a fair point. But the Prime Minister laid it down the other day that we neither recognise nor concede belligerent rights and will not tolerate interference with British shipping at sea. We have made that communication expressly to General Franco afresh in the last few hours. We have communicated with General Franco direct. That is not a very usual thing to do. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] The hon. Member may not know that the usual way of communicating is through
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the diplomatic channels. We have communicated with General Franco and we have told him that, as the Prime Minister said the other day, the Government cannot recognise or concede belligerent rights and cannot tolerate any interference with British shipping at sea, and we have added that any advice which we give to British vessels as to the course they should take does not of course affect the ultimate responsibility of General Franco if any damage were to be done to any British vessel, even if it disregarded the advice which we thought it our duty to give.
Mr. Lloyd George: That is a very important and crucial message. Does the Government merely confine its right of action to suing General Franco for damages? What would happen if a British vessel were attacked by one of Franco's men-of-war on the high seas? Would the British Navy, if any British ship were attacked, take steps to protect that ship against that action?
Sir J. Simon: Yes, certainly. The right hon. Gentleman, I think, is well justified in making the point raised here. It is really covered by the statement that we cannot tolerate any interference with British shipping.
Mr. Attlee: Would the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department explain why, if a rebel ship fires on a British merchant ship, it is right to protect that ship, and it is wrong to sweep away mines from its path?
Sir J. Simon: I should have thought there was a very obvious difference to anyone who considered the question. If there were sent from this country a fleet of mine-sweepers for the purpose of sweeping a channel into the Port of Bilbao, no one outside a lunatic asylum would imagine that that is anything other than directly assisting the side that is now mine-sweeping and directly opposing the other side.
I should have thought that there would have been general satisfaction on the other side of the House, now that they have understood what was perfectly plain in the Prime Minister's statement that this policy which we have adopted does not involve surrendering ourselves to the sweet will of any insurgents or any foreign

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government whatever. It means that we take the view which we think the country, taking a long view, will consider the best course, and that is for this country to keep itself separate from interference with either side in this miserable business. If that is the position, then we are completely justified in the course we are taking now, and I think I have satisfied the House and I am not without hope that we shall satisfy the country. So far from having adopted, as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and his friends began by supposing, some new pusillanimous course, we are taking now in the North of Spain the same action we took last autumn in the South of Spain. Both actions are based on the same policy, pursued for the same reason and justified. I submit confidently to the House that taking the long view it is the best position for this country if, when this thing is settled, it is to be regarded as a friendly country which has done its honest best not to take one side against the other.
I have done my best to state to the House a case which, if lion. Members will take what I have said consecutively, is an overwhelming one in answer to this Motion. I submit to the House and to the country that the Vote of Censure is utterly misconceived, that it is only by taking a partial and wholly one-sided view that it can be supported, and that the Government is not open to censure in this matter, but is entitled to the support of the House and the country.
5.10 p.m.
Sir A. Sinclair: The Secretary of State for the Home Department had a difficult task to answer the masterly opening speech of the Leader of the Opposition. In circumstances of considerable difficulty, he acquitted himself with the dexterity and resource which we always expect from him. Having regard to the circumstances, it is not surprising that he had to speak rather longer than the Leader of the Opposition. But I could not help thinking that his speech might well have been summed up in a phrase in a letter which I received in my mail yesterday morning. It was, "Hands off Franco and his Spanish patriots." That was the tenor of the right hon. Gentleman's speech and of the cheers with which it was greeted on the benches behind him.
The right hon. Gentleman issued a challenge to those who sit on this side
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of the House. I can only answer for myself and my friends. But he said that the right hon. Gentleman who spoke first did not make his position clear, and he asked: Do we accept or reject the principle of non-intervention—"to refrain from all interference direct or indirect in the internal affairs of Spain?" I answer that challenge directly. I have stood for the principle of non-intervention all along in this dispute, and I make that my point of departure in the observations which I have to offer to the House this afternoon. I am an impenitent supporter of the policy of non-intervention. More than that, I am a patient supporter. I have realised all along the difficulties of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. I never expected that this policy could be made thoroughly effective all round within the space of two or three weeks. Indeed, after the Non-Intervention Agreement was signed on 28th August I waited, not two or three weeks but months before I uttered a word of complaint. At last on 20th February we got the agreement for the prohibition of volunteers going to Spain, and the agreement to the observation scheme. That observation scheme was to come into operation on 6th March. It was postponed to 13th March, then to some date at the end of March and then to a fortnight after that. Now we are told that it is to come into operation some time next week.
We have waited seven or eight months for non-intervention to be made a reality, and as recently as three weeks ago Italian troops, we are told, were landing in Spain. The policy of non-intervention has not yet stopped Italian and German intervention in Spain. It has completely stopped any interference on the part of France or Britain in Spanish affairs, but it has not yet stopped continued interference by Italy and Germany, yet it has involved the withdrawal by France and this country of the rights which belong to the Spanish Government of purchasing in those countries the military supplies which they require to carry on their struggle. I think it was right in all the circumstances to withdraw those rights. I am not blaming the Government for doing it, but I say we have called upon the Spanish Government to pay that price for non-intervention, and in fact have not yet succeeded in making nonintervention effective.

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Now what is the next step that is being taken? Is it action to make non-intervention effective as against Germany and Italy? Not at all. It is a further encroachment on the rights of the Basque Government. They are now not only to be prevented from buying arms and munitions, and from getting recruits to fight in their armies, but they are to be denied their rights to get delivery of the foodstuffs for which they have paid, and which they require for their civilian population.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: Why only civilian population?
Sir A. Sinclair: The civilian population is about 400,000 in Bilbao alone, if we include the refugees, and the military people would number only 20,000 or 30,000. [Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy - Speaker (Captain Bourne): I think it would be better if hon. Members allowed speakers to make their speeches in their own way.
Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. May I call your attention to the fact that when the Home Secretary was speaking he was subjected to almost constant interruptions?
Mr. Thurtle: On a point of Order. Is it in order for a Noble Lord who throws books about this House to lecture the House on its conduct?
Earl Winterton: Further to that point of Order, may I ask whether it is not the rule in this House, as it is outside, that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander?
Mr. J. J. Davidson: On a point of Order.
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I still think it would be better if hon. Members were allowed to make their own speeches in their own way.
Mr. Davidson: I want to ask whether it is in order for any Noble Lord or hon. Member to cast aspersions on Mr. Speaker's decisions or Mr. Speaker's guidance of this House?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I did not understand the Noble Lord's remark to bear that interpretation.
Sir A. Sinclair: May I say two things in answer to the Noble Lord's point of Order? First, that I, at any rate, did not interrupt the right hon. Gentleman's speech, except on two occasions, when I asked permission to do so. [Interruption.] There are two kinds of interruption. There is the interruption by a Member who wishes to put a question in order to try to advance the Debate, and there is interruption by the mere making of zoological noises. What I did on two occasions was to ask the right hon. Gentleman for permission to intervene in order, as I thought, to advance the Debate. Having said that, let me make it plain that I do not object in the least to any kind of interruption, and I am perfectly prepared to put up with any reception which this House happens to give me on this occasion. As distinct from the Home Secretary who, I agree, had a very difficult task, I feel that I am on very sound ground.
As I was saying, we have already withdrawn from the Spanish and Basque Governments part of their rights, according to international law, and what is now proposed is to withdraw a further and vital right, the right to receive the delivery of goods which they have purchased, and which they need to save their civil population from starvation. The right hon. Gentleman asks, "How can it be said that we are entering upon another policy, betraying our principles, and exposing ourselves to censure, when we are applying exactly the same principles in this case as we applied in the case of the Spanish Government in the latter part of last year?" I deny that the two things are parallel, and I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman skated very rapidly over one part of his case here. He said that the order given to British merchant ships then was that they were to go first of all into certain ports, and that if they wished to proceed from those ports to certain Spanish ports they would do so at their own risk—that the high seas, at any rate, were to be absolutely free to them, but that within territorial waters they were to understand that the Government—[Interruption]. I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. That, indeed, was exactly the point I wanted to make. He never used the words. He said in fact that it was within territorial waters only that they had to fear any interference by the Spanish Government.

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They were to be free on the high seas. Were they not to be free on the high seas? Does the right hon. Gentleman say that he was not maintaining the right of passage for British ships on the high seas? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"] I pause for an answer. The right hon. Gentleman cannot say that he is opposed to there being a free passage for British ships on the high seas. All he meant was that within territorial waters only, could the Spanish Government rightly exercise its sovereignty.
Sir J. Simon: I do not mind being attacked, but I really do not see any reason why the right hon. Baronet should so constantly misrepresent me.
Sir A. Sinclair: I paused for a reply.
Sir J. Simon: The right hon. Gentleman is speaking in a very excited manner. It is right that the House should know the facts. They were informed that a blockade was de facto being established. The right hon. Gentleman knows, I suppose, that a blockade is not limited to territorial waters. The orders were these: that if merchant ships were proceeding to a port which was known to be watched more or less continuously they should be advised not to proceed—there is nothing about territorial waters there—and if it was not known to what extent the port was watched they should be told so—there is nothing about territorial waters there—and they should be warned that any attempt they might make to enter such a port must be entirely at their own risk. I am quite unaware of any reason for saying that that warning which was given was limited by what some people call territorial waters, a phrase, I may say, which a great many people use very confidently but very few people understand.
Sir A. Sinclair: What is perfectly well understood is that within territorial waters the legitimate Government of Spain has a right to exercise its sovereignty. Outside them the British Government has a duty, and if it did not exercise that duty it was neglectful of it, to secure a free passage for British ships. It was the British Government's duty last autumn, and is the British Government's duty now, to secure free passage for British shipping on its lawful occasions on the high seas, and it is no answer to the charge which we are bringing against the
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Government this afternoon that it has neglected that duty, to say that it neglected that duty at the end of last year. As a matter of fact, as regards territorial waters, it is quite clear, of course, that the Spanish Government had a right to exercise sovereignty inside its own territorial waters last year, a right which is not enjoyed by General Franco to-day. It is no use the right hon. Gentleman saying—
Sir J. Simon: I am very anxious to avoid a discussion about very difficult points of international law, but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to reflect for a moment. He appreciates, of course, that the Spanish Government is not at war with us. Is he really laying it down that the French Government, not at war with this country, is entitled to prevent any British merchant ships coming within its territorial waters?
Sir A. Sinclair: The right hon. Gentleman has told us that in the opinion of His Majesty's Government the Spanish Government was entitled to exercise—
Sir J. Simon: The right hon. Baronet appears to be so excited that he cannot remember things. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I am sorry if I have said anything which the right hon. Baronet resents.
Sir A. Sinclair: I did not resent it.
Sir J. Simon: I would ask my right hon. Friend to take note that from first to last I never said one single word implying any right of the Spanish Government to proclaim a blockade in the Mediterranean. On the contrary, I explained as clearly as I could that when we denied belligerent rights that denial applied both to the Government and to the insurgents—both or either. That is a very elementary proposition of international law.
Sir A. Sinclair: It is true the right hon. Gentleman said that in spite of denying that right the Government did in fact prevent British ships from asserting their rights. It advised British ships not to assert their rights of free passage on the high seas in view of the claims made by the Spanish Government. I go further, and I say that the Prime Minister, in reply to questions, has drawn a clear distinction between the right of passage on the high seas and the right of passage in territorial waters. He has told us several times that the Government is insisting on

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the right of passage for British ships on the high seas, and has told us several times that the Government is not insisting in so far as territorial waters are concerned. That distinction is not my distinction; it is one which has been drawn by the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman says that I speak excitedly, but the answer to that is quite simple, and is that I have to shout down his friends who sit behind him. I feel that it is not the manner in which I speak, but the matter of my speech which is of substance, and it is quite clear that the Government are not fulfilling the undertaking given by the Prime Minister to secure right of passage for British ships on the high seas.
This is not non-intervention. It is not refraining, as the right hon. Gentleman said was the policy of the Government, from direct or indirect interference in the internal affairs of Spain. If we were to refrain from direct or indirect interference in the situation which has arisen in the Basque country we should allow the Basque people to receive the goods which they have bought, which they have a right to receive in British ships, and which they need for the feeding of their civilian population. If we deny that right, then, indeed, we are interfering in the rebellion in Spain. If we accord that right, we are doing only what is legitimate. The action of the Government in advising ships not to go to Bilbao is, in fact intervention in the internal affairs of Spain. The right hon. Gentleman justifies that on the ground that the entrance to the harbour of Bilbao is blocked with mines, and is exposed to attack from the air. [An HON. MEMBER: "So was Zeebrugge."] In regard to the aircraft, Bilbao is 20 miles from the front line, and General Mola's aircraft are very fully occupied with military objectives; therefore, to represent the harbour of Bilbao as being under a ceaseless hail of bombs is a ludicrous distortion of the real picture.
I come to the question of mines. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that information about the mines has been received by the commander of the "Blanche." Did this officer visit Bilbao? How did he get his information? Did his information refer to the water within the three-mile limit or to the high seas? Does he mean that there are mines beyond the three-mile limit or inside the
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three-mile limit? The right hon. Gentleman further told us that the commander of the "Blanche" issued this order to the food ships: "Ships are not to go into any port in the hands of the Spanish Government on the north coast of Spain." It was only to ports in the hands of the Spanish Government on the north coast of Spain that they were forbidden to go.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: Is the right hon. Gentleman criticising the action taken by the captain of the "Blanche"? [AN HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] if he is doing so, I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman is putting to the House the point that the captain of the "Blanche" was taking sides in this dispute in favour of General Franco.
Sir A. Sinclair: I am criticising this order. The captain of the "Blanche" is a servant of the Government, and the Government will no doubt defend the order. It will be for the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to defend it. I am not attacking the man, but I am asking what the order meant. For all I know, his order was in accordance with instructions he received. I am only quoting the order. It will be in accordance with instructions he received from the Government. He may have consulted the Government before he issued the order to the food ships. I am entitled, as a Member of this House, to criticise an order which is given, and if my criticism is unfounded it will be dealt with by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he replies; and I do criticise it. The right hon. Gentleman told us that there is a report giving in some detail the position of the mines. I would like to know what that report is. It is, of course, impossible for the Home Secretary to go into the full details of a report covering some scores of miles of coast, but may we see that report? Can it be lodged, so that we can see what information it actually was that the commander of the "Blanche" obtained.
Now we come to the instruction given by the Board of Trade, which superseded the order of the commander of the "Blanche." The instruction of the Board of Trade was that His Majesty's Government did not want British ships to proceed to ports in Basque territory, but to remain at St. Jean de Luz and to await further instructions. Have the

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ships had those further instructions yet? If they have had them, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what further instructions were sent to those ships? Meanwhile, I want to know very particularly from the right hon. Gentleman when he replies an answer to these questions: Is protection on the high seas withdrawn from those ships, or are those ships to be protected if they go to Bilbao? Suppose, in spite of the Board of Trade's instruction, the ships decide that they will take the risk and that they will carry their foodstuffs to Bilbao; will they be escorted arid protected up to the three-mile limit? Will those ships then have to take the risk of the mines? If there are mines on the high seas, will those mines be swept up, or are we to be told that sweeping up mines in the path of peaceful ships on the high seas is intervention in the internal affairs of Spain? I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give clear answers to my questions.
We were told by the Prime Minister that His Majesty's Government do not recognise the blockade of the Basque coast; so far as British shipping is concerned the Government have instituted a blockade. They say: "We will not tolerate any interference by General Franco with British ships which are trying to get to ports of the Spanish Government," and they prevent any interference with those ships by preventing the ships from going anywhere near the ports.
The right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench referred to the "Kamerun" case; there was also the "Palos," in December, the German ship which was carrying arms, which was captured by the Basque Government and taken into Bilbao. It was captured inside territorial waters and found to be carrying arms. The German Government sent a cruiser, which turned its guns upon Bilbao. The Basque Government kept the arms and they kept as prisoner a Spanish passenger who was on board. He was alleged to be a spy. They returned the "Palos" to the German Government. The German Government were not satisfied. They shelled one Spanish cargo ship till it ran aground, they captured two other Spanish ships and they handed them over bag and baggage to the insurgent forces. That was the answer of the German Govern-
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ment to interference with their shipping and, as we know, interference with their shipping ceased. Cannot we secure as much freedom for our ships—[Interruption]. [An HON. MEMBER: "War"] "War," says an hon. Gentleman, but when Germany does it we do not have war. We do not accept that; we have only to do what the German Government are willing to do, and that is to secure a peaceful passage for our ships.
Mr. Thorne: The Navy dares not.
Sir A. Sinclair: I do not say that the Navy does not dare, but that the Government dare not use the Navy. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said in his speech that the one reason why he attached so much importance to the policy of non-intervention was the cooperation of the French Government. He said: "We are, in common with M. Blum, upholding a policy of non-intervention." Is this action being taken in common with M. Blum? Have the French Government been consulted? The Paris correspondent of the "Manchester Guardian"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] As a matter of fact, on matters of French Government policy and on the views and intentions of the French Government there are few correspondents as well informed as the Paris correspondent of the "Manchester Guardian." No one can possibly contradict that.
Mr. Denville: What about their Spanish attitude?
Sir A. Sinclair: It is not a question of views but of news. Their correspondent is in Paris to get news, and it is not unnatural that the Paris correspondent of that newspaper should be in a position to get news about the attitude of the French Government. The Paris Correspondent of the "Manchester Guardian" says that the decision of His Majesty's Government has created a feeling bordering on consternation in French Government circles. On the other hand, the Germans and Italians are jubilant. They hail it as a clear sign of weakness. Senator Farinachi, who is a member of the Grand Council of the Fascist party in Italy and one of the leading statesmen of Italy at the present time, declares:
"The British Government met urgently, with the intention of raising a loud voice against whoever dares to impose any limitation on the Union Jack. Instead, they had to

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admit that Britain could not defend her own craft in Spanish waters."
That is the impression which has been made upon Italy. This is Abyssinia all over again, retreating step by step in the face of the threats of the dictators.
Speaking at Leicester last Saturday, the Foreign Secretary said that we need not fear the result of this war, that if General Franco won with his Italian and German allies, the Spanish people would turn the invaders out. He said that there were 24,000,000 reasons why Italian and German domination would never be allowed in Spain. So, after the civil war, we are to witness a war lasting, I suppose, another two or three years, to turn the German and Italian invaders out of Spain. That will take a little time. After all, it is not a case of the whole of the Spanish people being reunited after this war. If General Franco wins, he will be very grateful to his Italian and German allies, and he will be very much under their influence—I use a moderate word—for several years, for those very years which, Signor Mussolini said in a famous speech, would be critical years in the future of European history, from 1935 to 1940. During those years, if Italy is in occupation of the Balearic Islands, as she is now of two of them, as well as of territory opposite the straits of Bab-el-Mandeb, in the Red Sea to the east of the Mediterranean, that will be a very serious position for the British Empire, and for those countries who are loyal to the League of Nations.
General Franco is so delighted and encouraged by the Government's action, that, as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, his response is to sow mines round 810 miles of the Spanish coast. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to make it clear whether, before he embarked upon a policy which might have fateful results, not only in the struggle now proceeding in Spain but in the still more doubtful future which lies ahead for Europe, he consulted the French Government to secure that co-operation to which the Home Secretary attached such importance in his opening speech.
The Government's decision is going to be critical for this struggle in Spain. The "Times" says to-day that for four months Bilbao has been within a month off real famine. There is an influx of
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refugees from Durango, which has been so horribly bombed; there are 400,000 people crowded into the town of Bilbao; and the average amount of rations given to each inhabitant, including nursing mothers, is valued at 2d. a day by the "Times" correspondent in Bilbao. "Seagulls," he says "are regarded as a delicacy." The price of cats is soaring. Negotiations are apparently being undertaken for the transport of some of these refugees by sea to safety. "Meanwhile," he says. "they require food." Why cannot they have this food? Vessels carrying iron ore are moving to and fro; 58 ships, as we have heard from the telegram which the Leader of the Opposition read out, have passed to and fro in the last fortnight. Within the last day or two some ships, including the "Olavus," have passed out of Bilbao, since this report was made by the commander of the "Blanche." Why cannot these food ships be allowed in to convey the food which the hungry civilian population of Bilbao so greatly need?
The Foreign Secretary made one very remarkable revelation to-day. He said that for two months these mines had been outside Bilbao. For two months this shipping has been going to and fro without molestation, without the loss of a single commercial vessel. It is true that it is unsafe for warships to go, because their draught is so much greater, but the Foreign Office itself, only a week or 10 days ago, advised my hon. Friend the Member for West Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts), who wanted to get a ship with some supplies for refugees into Bilbao, that those supplies could not be sent in a destroyer because of mines, but they told him to send them in a commercial ship, and it would be all right. Why cannot these commercial ships go with the food that is so urgently needed? General Mola is attacking the Basques now. He has been thrown back; his attacks have been beaten off; but he is sitting down to starve them out. That is the situation, and, if he succeeds, 50,000 men will be released for fighting on other fronts. What does the right hon. Gentleman regard as non-intervention in those circumstances? He regards as non-intervention the act of refusing to allow the Basques to get hold of the food for which they have paid, thus greatly forwarding the designs of General Mola, which are to reduce Bilbao by starvation.

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The Foreign Secretary said on Monday at Liverpool, referring to the meetings of the Little Entente, that they added wisely to their communique:
"This spirit of conciliation is not a sign of weakness, and all the three States are at all times ready to defend their national rights."
If it is wisdom for the Little Entente to be prepared to defend their national rights—such small States, faced with powerful neighbours—surely it is also wisdom for the British Empire, faced with these Italian encroachments at both ends of the Mediterranean, to insist on the right of our ships to pass freely on the seas of the world. That is a right which we certainly ought to defend, and, if we do not defend that right against General Franco, we shall only encourage other encroachments. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that in the Spanish conflict the Government had been guided by the principle of live and let live. How do they apply that to the situation in the Basque territory now? They are a brave, hardy, God-fearing race of fishermen and peasants, these Basques. They helped us in the War. They got food and raw materials through to us in Basque ships when, as the President of the Basque Government has said, the danger was real. They lost 30 ships in doing it. And now the gratitude of a cowardly Government is to stop those supplies which they need in the crisis of their fate. "Live and let live," says the right hon. Gentleman. As far as the Basque people are concerned, it is "Live and let die," because that is what is going to happen to the civilian population if they do not get the food which they need to maintain life.
In conclusion, I want to put four questions to the right hon. Gentleman. The first is: What do the Government propose to do to relieve this situation? Do they propose to evacuate the civilian refugees who are now in Bilbao? The "Times" hints that they do; but, if ships can go in to evacuate the refugees, why cannot food ships go in too? My second question is: If the protest against mine-laying is ignored or rejected, will the Government then take action to ensure free passage for British ships? The third is: Will they escort, up to the three-mile limit, British ships which are willing to take the risk of entering the harbour? Finally, if the observation scheme is not in operation, as the right hon. Gentleman
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said he hoped it would be, at the beginning of next week, will the Government be prepared to co-operate with the French Government in making non-intervention a reality by the use of the French Navy and the British Navy, as the French Government have been proposing, according to the "Times" Paris correspondent—
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): No.
Sir A. Sinclair: At any rate, they have discussed it. The "Times" correspondent said that it had been discussed, and they were prepared to consider the use of the French Navy and the British Navy to make non-intervention a reality. So far, intervention by Germany and Italy has been permitted, and non-intervention has resulted only in the infringement of the commercial rights of the Spanish Government.
We do not ask the Government to interfere in the situation in Spain. We do not even ask the Government to restore to the Spanish Government the ordinary rights of commercial intercourse of which it has been deprived by the Non-Intervention Agreement, if all other Governments are now prepared to observe that agreement. We do not ask the Government to interfere with any other Power which is carrying on peaceful intercourse with any part of Spain, or which is observing its undertakings under the Non-Intervention Agreements of 28th August and l0th February last. But we do ask the Government to declare that intervention in Spain must stop, that the Non-Intervention Agreements must be scrupulously observed by all parties, that there must be no further encroachments upon the rights of commercial intercourse which still remain to the Spanish and Basque Governments under those agreements; and we ask them to co-operate with the French Government in any measures which may be necessary to make that declaration effective. We ask them to go one step further. Ever since I first spoke on this subject I have begged the Government to take an early opportunity for mediation. The task of the peacemaker is proverbially hard, but our very position of detachment imposes it upon us. If there must be intervention, let it be intervention for peace; and, in working together for peace in Spain, the

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nations of Europe may perhaps find a way to establish peace in the world on a more enduring foundation.
5.55 p.m.
Mr. Churchill: The right hon. Gentleman has made a very strong and forcible speech upon, as I gather from his closing words, the virtues of non-intervention, but I am left wondering somewhat where he would find those reserves of voice and eloquence which would be required if he were to become the champion or the opponent of positive intervention. I do not myself wish to become too heavily involved this afternoon in the violent hostilities which apparently are proceeding all around me, because, quite frankly, I have not been able to work up the same state of passionate indignation or enthusiasm about either side in Spain that I see is so sincerely present in the breasts of many Members, not all by any means on one side in the Spanish matter, or on one side of the House. I have tried very sincerely to be neutral, and to adopt a neutral attitude of mind; I refuse to become the partisan of either side. I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between Communism and Nazi-ism, I would choose Communism. I hope not to be called upon to survive in the world under a Government of either of those dispensations.
Mr. Maxton: You would not.
Mr. Churchill: It is not a question of opposing Nazi-ism or Communism; it is a question of opposing tyranny in whatever form it presents itself; and, having a strong feeling in regard to the preservation of individual rights as against Governments, and as I do not find in either of these two Spanish factions which are at war any satisfactory guarantee that the ideas which I personally care about, and to which I have been brought up in this House to attach some importance, would be preserved, I am not able to throw myself in this headlong fashion into the risk of having to fire cannon immediately on the one side or the other of this trouble. I have found it easier, I must say, to maintain this feeling of detachment from both sides because it seems to me that, before we could give any help to either side, we ought to know what the victory of that side would mean to those who are beaten. I can understand a British subject espousing the
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cause of General Franco or Señor Caballero, but what would be that man's remorse if he found that, after contributing to the victory of either side, a horrible vengeance was wreaked, perhaps for years, upon the vanquished? Certainly I do not feel that the House of Commons ought to take any decisive action either way without, at any rate, knowing quite clearly what the results would be to those who were conquered as the result of any intervention in which we engaged.
I cannot feel any enthusiasm for these rival creeds. I feel unbounded sorrow and sympathy for the victims, but to give a decisive punch either way, without making sure that the result of it would not be to make yourselves responsible for a subsequent catalogue of foul atrocities, would be a responsibility which no one in the House ought to be willing to accept. [Interruption.] The right hon. Baronet, carried away by the strength of his feelings, seems to have forgotten altogether the appeal that he has made, and the advice that he would give to the Government, which is nothing more or less than to break the blockade by force of arms. There is nothing in this world, it appears to me, more horrible than the taking out of great masses of men, quite simple men, in batches, sometimes for no fault greater than to have been the secretary of a trade union or to have voted Conservative at the previous election, and shooting them by firing parties against a wall, yet that is proceeding on both sides to a terrible extent every day. I certainly do not feel able to work up this tremendous desire to intervene, nor do I desire to take upon my shoulders any share of the blood-guiltiness which would fall upon anyone who made decisive intervention in this struggle.
The right hon. Baronet is asking us to use our overwhelming sea power to break the blockade at Bilbao. A blockade is a perfectly legitimate operation of war. If a nation has naval forces strong enough to establish a blockade in a civil or any other war, it is perfectly entitled to carry out its blockade. He argues that we should be made at this stage to break the blockade which the insurgents have established and have, according to our naval officers, effectively established. We are told that we are afraid, that we have hoisted the white flag, and so on. Of course, if people are going to allow

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themselves to be provoked from the course, which prudence and careful thought had dictated, by taunts and high-pitched reproaches of that kind, they must have very little confidence in their own judgment. It is easy to point the finger of scorn and to accuse the Government of fear, but there is no need to fear. Overwhelming naval power is in our hands. But our policy is not to be drawn, certainly not single-handed, into this dismal welter. I thought we had decided to be neutral, and I earnestly hope the Government will bear the harsh reproaches that are addressed to them and move steadily upon the path they have taken.
Let us see what would happen if we were to break this blockade. We should immediately find ourselves sinking one or two ships that belong to the insurgent junta. I gather that that action would be agreeable to our non-intervener opposite. To show how far he allows his feelings of partisanship and partiality to carry him, he has even held up as a good example the bullying conduct of the German Navy. I do not think that is a good model to hold up to us. What would happen if, for instance, in a few weeks' time the Valencia Government regained command of the sea and established an effective blockade outside Cadiz or outside the Balearic Islands, and supposing German ships wished to carry merchandise or munitions or food into Cadiz, or, similarly, Italian ships wished to convey supplies of food to Majorca? If the Spanish Government declined to allow those ships to pass, the right hon. Baronet would, apparently, hold the German or Italian Fleets perfectly justified in sinking the ships of the Spanish Government.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, who has been First Lord of the Admiralty, and knows the agreement that has been made this year, if he is putting arms, the transport of which is forbidden under the Nonintervention Agreement, on the same footing as the transport of food, which remains free?
Mr. Churchill: I am not arguing this matter as a lawyer at all. We have had a great lawyer's argument, and he seems to make out a very clear case for the impartiality of the Government. But I am attracted by what the right lion.
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Baronet has said about the conduct of the German Government when they were offended in regard to the treatment of their shipping, and I am glad that the Government are following a different course.
Sir A. Sinclair: The right hon. Gentleman must allow me to intervene. He is misrepresenting what I said. I expressed no word of approval of what the German Navy did, I quoted it as a clear illustration of the fact that war did not necessarily follow, as hon. Members opposite are always saying, from taking action.
Mr. Churchill: The right hon. Baronet convicts himself out of his own mouth. He quoted it in order to show that we could do the same without war following.
Mr. Alexander: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way again?
Mr. Churchill: I really never have seen for a very long time a Debate in which there has been such a vast number of interruptions. Another thing that I notice about all these interruptions is that hardly one of them has come off.
Mr. Alexander: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he will not forget that in August, 1933, the captain of a British ship actually boarded the "Miguel de Cervantes," a Spanish Government cruiser, and demanded and received an apology for interference with a British ship on the high seas?
Mr. Churchill: I have not the slightest doubt that similar action would be taken if ill-usage of a similar character were meted out to our ships by the insurgent fleet, but that is quite a different thing from doing what is really wanted by those who put forward this Motion. What they really want is to use the British Navy to break up the blockade and thereby, possibly, fatefully determine the result of the struggle in Spain.
Sir A. Sinclair: The Prime Minister denies that there is a blockade.
Mr. Churchill: I do not think there is any doubt about it. Telegrams have actually been read out from a naval officer who says a blockade at present exists. What the Prime Minister said was that we had not recognised the blockade. We may not recognise it in a formal manner—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: I really must intervene. This is a Vote of Censure against the Government, and it is only the usual fairness of the House to allow those who have been attacked to reply. Orderly debate and the right of reply is the common tradition of the House which we regard as one of our greatest prizes.
Mr. Churchill: I certainly have no desire at all to engage myself in violent recriminations upon this matter. There is another reason which makes me hold to the principle of neutrality, and that is the extraordinary even balance of the forces that are fighting in Spain. The Leader of the Liberal party speaks—not particularly this afternoon, but as he is accustomed to speak—of the Government and rebels. He seems to think that all Governments must be infallible and all rebels must be vile. It all depends on what are rebels and what is Government. To make out that this civil war in Spain is a straggle between a bland, sedate, authoritative, liberal and constitutional regime on the one hand and a few mutinous Fascist generals on the other is really not to envisage the facts. Before the fighting began in Spain, as fighting might begin in any country where such a situation arose, the Conservative party, even at an election in which the tide went against them, polled actually more votes, or practically as many votes as all the combined parties on the other side—2,500,000 either way. Is it to be pretended that there is any particular change in the balance of opinion, because Caballero's side is shooting Conservatives in large numbers in cold blood, and Franco's side is shooting trade unionists? I do not see how anybody can suppose that because a man's relatives, comrades or friends have been shot, executed in large numbers, he is likely to modify his political convictions and be the more inclined to embrace opinions to which he was thoroughly opposed. Terrorism makes great numbers of people keep quiet on both sides. Naturally, the fear of death is in all their hearts. It cannot be pretended that because General Franco has been shooting people because they are trade unionists, or because Caballero has been shooting people for being well-to-do or because they are members of local Conservative branches, that that has brought about any marked change of opinion from one side to the other.
If we look at territory, there, again, the largest part of Spain is in the hands
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of the rebels. Put it as low as you will, I say that Spain is divided 50–50. My opinion is that the vast majority of Spaniards if they could speak would like the whole thing stopped, so that they could get on with their work and enjoy life like other people. I expect there are others who think it abominable that foreigners should be intervening on either side, hotting up the struggle and hustling the Spanish people forward towards the furnace. The right hon. Gentleman does not give equal treatment in his mind to the enormous masses of human beings on either side. I read in the "Times" last week that the financial credit of the so-called rebel government is as good or better than that of the official Government, with the Bank of Spain and the gold reserves of Spain in its hands. Therefore, you cannot talk of the Spanish rebels as though they were unworthy of any kind of consideration. If ever there was a civil war it is the civil war that is going on in Spain, and we are absolutely right to preserve impartiality and neutrality in this matter. The case of the Opposition is that impartiality has not been preserved. They are perfectly entitled to raise that case, but most people will feel after the statement that has been made that there is impartiality and there is even-handedness, certainly far more even-handedness than would exist if we ordered our Fleet to advance, to sweep the mines from the sea and to open up the town of Bilbao.
When I hear my right hon. Friend opposite speak of rebels, I must remind him that, sitting there as he does in the seat of the Whigs, he is departing from Whig principles. The sacred right of rebellion was one of their first doctrines. In regard to Liberal statesmen, there the right hon. Gentleman sits, the successor of Mr. Gladstone, striving to uphold the great principles for which his party stand. But what was Mr. Gladstone's record? He was a strong supporter of rebels. He was a strong supporter of the rebels in the war of American secession. There, we had a civil war in which the rebels were not only rebels but slave owners. Mr. Gladstone went about the country, and in a famous speech either at Newcastle or Hull proclaimed that the Confederate States had not only founded an army, but that they had founded a navy, they had founded a government, and, more than that, they had founded a

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nation. [An HON. MEMBER: "He was a Tory then."] He was not a Tory then. Therefore, before one takes the view that rebels are like mad dogs to be put down and shot at sight, we should remember these things.
If we search the history of the nineteenth century we shall find many cases where British Governments have actually espoused the cause of rebels. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), the leader of the Clydeside party, with his customary candour and frankness, made no bones about supporting rebels. He declared that the question was whether or not they were rebelling for the thing you wanted. Everyone will support rebels who are fighting for the things of which they approve, and they will criticise the Government which is fighting for the things which they dislike. Therefore, do not let us have too much of an attempt to make out that the Government in Spain have all the right on their side and the rebels none. It is one of the most evenly-balanced struggles, and one of the most unpleasant, and certainly it is the least tempting cause for us to espouse. If we were to take the course which is recommended by the right hon. Gentleman and to break the blockade, if we threw the might of the British Navy into the scale, could he guarantee or could he be sure that we might not provoke that very alignment and crystallisation in Europe along those unnatural idiotic—perhaps I had better say, idealogical—lines which it is our whole message and mission to rupture, or at least avoid.
I am going to give my vote on this occasion to the Foreign Secretary. I think he has done very well not only as regards our defensive alliance with France, which is our only means of safety in these years of tardy preparation, but in the Non-Intervention Committee. I expect that the Non-Intervention Committee is full of swindles and cheats; anyhow it falls far short of strict interpretation and good faith, but it is a precious thing in these times of peril that five great nations should be slanging each other round a table instead of blasting and bombing each other in horrible war. Is it not a great and a most encouraging fact that German, French, Russian, Italian, and British naval officers are officially acting together, however crankily, in something which represents,
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however feebly, the concert of Europe and affords, if it is only a pale, misshapen shadow, some idea of those conceptions of the reign of law and of collective authority which many of us regard as of vital importance?
The man who mocks at the existence of the Non-Intervention Committee I put on the same level as the man who mocks at the hopes of Geneva and the League of Nations. Even if you tell me that it is vitiated by humbug, we should not be daunted. Hypocrisy, it is said, is the tribute which vice pays to virtue. I am not sure that we can afford to do without any tributes which are going about. I say frankly that I would rather have a peace-keeping hypocrisy than straightforward, brazen vice, taking the form of unlimited war. We are not in a position to assume what will happen in this world, but there are a good many Members of this House who will feel that in the last six or seven months the Foreign Secretary has so guided our affairs as to avoid a number of frightful pitfalls, of many of which most of us are probably unaware, and any one of which might have proved injurious to the country and fatal to himself. Therefore, we ought on the occasion of this Vote of Censure to give him our solid vote to-night.
I should not like to sit down without indulging for a few minutes in a day dream. Alas, it is only a day dream ! Still, as an independent Member whose utterances are sometimes noticed abroad, I should like to unfold this day dream to the House. We have been talking about non-intervention, which is a policy to which we Should adhere. But suppose all the great Powers were willing to abandon the policy of non-intervention in favour of a policy of combined intervention in Spain. Suppose some of them stopped pouring petrol on Spanish flames and poured cold water and good sense instead. Suppose a voice went out from Britain which said: "Comrade Stalin"—or Mr. Stalin; I do not know what is the exact term—"we understand that you are not seeking the establishment of a militant Communist Government in Spain. All you want now is that there shall not be a Nazi or a Fascist Spain. Is that so?" Suppose he said, as I expect he would say: "That is so." Then suppose the voice

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said to Hitler: "You have rescued the German people from despair and defeat. Now will you not be the Hitler of peace? We understand that the Russian Government is not insisting upon the setting up of a Communist Government in Spain. Will you not also say that if the German people were sure that this would not happen, they would not insist upon the Spaniards adopting a Nazi regime?" Might not Signor Mussolini also hearken to these words of good sense and good faith? Might he not say: "I will not tolerate a Red Bolshevik State in Spain, but I am quite content to see the Spanish Peninsula settle down upon some Spanish basis which is neither one thing nor the other." Then might not the Liberal democracies of the West, France and Britain, and the British Empire, too, come along and say: "Well, if that is so, cannot the people of the middle view, the live-and-let-live people, have a chance? Cannot something be arranged which represents a purely Spanish solution and does not spell the triumph of any highly coloured ideology?"
I make bold to say that that is what nineteen-twentieths of the Spanish people want. They do not want to go on killing each other for the entertainment of foreigners. War is very cruel. It goes on for so long. What about some meeting at what Lord Rosebery once called "a Wayside Inn," which would give Spain the chance at least of peace, of law, of bread, and of oblivion? As I said, I trespass upon the indulgence of the House in uttering such day-dreams, but if they will bear with me, I should like to carry them one step further and try to cast sentiment into a mould. Of course, neither of the two Spanish sides can afford to say that it would tolerate the idea of a settlement. They are fighting for life; they are desperate men, and all their lives are at stake. They dare not show the slightest sign of weakness, but they have their seconds, they have their friends in these great Powers who are in close touch with them. Is it not the time when this horrible duel might for the moment be considered by the seconds and not necessarily only by the principal parties, and when the seconds could decide, as they often do in European duels, that honour is
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satisfied, or, if you like to put it more truthfully, that dishonour is gorged?
Suppose those five great Powers, whose fleets are now acting nominally on a common policy, after agreeing secretly among themselves, were to propose to the Spaniards a solution on the following lines—a period of six years, in three stages. The first stage would give little more than peace, order, and time to cool down, with no vengeance, no executions except for common, non-political murderers on either side. The second stage would be a kind of compromise, a hybrid Government of elements in Spain that have not been involved in the ferocity of this struggle—[Interruption.] Let hon. Members opposite not throw away this idea without considering it. If you wish for a common truce to this Spanish war, you must be bold enough to consider novel and even fanciful propositions. The third stage would see the revival of those Parliamentary institutions which, in one form or another, it is my firm belief that 19 out of 20 Spaniards never dreamt to lose or meant to see destroyed. Proud as they are, it might well be that the Spaniards, in their distress and agony, would not refuse outside help to try to put the locomotive back upon the rails or to pull their wagon out of the ditch.
When millions of people are lacerated and inflamed against each other by reciprocal injuries, some element of outside aid and even of outside pressure is indispensable, and if these five great Powers were agreed upon a plan, they might say, "If both of your factions refuse our proposals, well, then, go on with your war, and much good may it do you. But if one accepts and the other refuses, then we will all of us unite to give our favour and support, and that would be overwhelming to the side which does not accept the means of peace." If that course were adopted, it would show that we at any rate possess a leverage, a great leverage, in these matters, and it might well be that a result would come which would be acceptable to the mass of the Spanish people. There is fear in all Spanish hearts, even in districts which are apparently quite tranquil. They know that the turn of the wheel may send a new force into that area in which all their actions will be regarded as guilty that hitherto they have had to use for their own daily safety; and it is the same

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on both sides. I cannot conceive that it is not a supreme object of endeavour to try to give them reassurance. If we try and fail, what is our loss? It is nothing worse than what all suffer anyhow. If we try and succeed, then what is the prize? The prize is far greater than any issue now at stake in Spain. It may be that the peace and glory of Europe would reward the valiant, faithful effort of the great Powers.
We seem to be moving, drifting, steadily against our will, against the will of every race and every people and every class, towards some hideous catastrophe. Everybody wishes to stop it, but they do not know how. We have talks of Eastern and Western Pacts, but they make no greater security. Armaments and counter-armaments proceed apace, and we must find something new. Worry has been defined by some nerve specialists as "a spasm of the imagination." The mind, it is said, seizes hold of something and simply cannot let it go. Reason, argument, threats are useless. The grip becomes all the more convulsive. But if you could introduce some new theme, in this case the practical effect of a common purpose and of co-operation for a common end, if you could introduce that, then indeed it might be that these clenched fists would relax into open hands of generous co-operation, that the reign of peace and freedom might come, and that science, instead of being a shameful prisoner in the galleys of slaughter, might pour her wealth abounding into the cottage homes of every land.
6.37 p.m.
Mr. Arthur Henderson: I am sure that although every Member on this side of the House will not agree with much that was said by the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), I am sure that every Member of the House would desire that this fratricidal strife which is now devastating Spain should come to a speedy termination. At the same time, while the right hon. Gentleman stated that he was neutral, I frankly confess that all my sympathies rest with the Spanish Government. They are not responsible for the outbreak of hostilities in Spain. For what it is worth, they have just the same legal right behind them as our own Government claimed during the years when the Irish people were fighting to achieve freedom in our own
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British Isles. Whichever side wins, it is evident, I think, that Spain will be put back 5o years, and, therefore, we can only hope that in the very near future there will come an end of what is taking place in that country at the present time.
The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, who answered for the Government, made what I believe to be one of his most brilliant efforts, in that he was able to draw more red herrings across the trail than have characterised any speech given in this House during recent times. There is one great issue that we are faced with to-night, and that is, are the Government taking the right action in refusing to give protection to British ships seeking to carry foodstuffs into Bilbao? We are not discussing the general Spanish question; we are discussing that much narrower question. The Home Secretary started his defence by challenging the Opposition on the principle of non-intervention. I was either the first or second Member on these benches, in the adjournment Debate in July of last year, to take up the attitude that the Spanish Government, in accordance with international law, were entitled to come into our markets and purchase any or all of the commodities which they required, whether in the way of foodstuffs, munitions of war, or otherwise. I believe that to be the correct statement of the legal position. Later on I was prepared to accept the policy of non-intervention, provided that that policy was made effective. We were told by Members of the Government, with all their authority as Ministers, that the international situation was so precarious that the policy of non-intervention was essential if we were to avoid the dangers of an international conflict, and on that basis, and that basis only, the party on this side of the House was prepared, against its will, against its better judgment, to accept that policy.
As it has turned out, that policy has been more or less a complete failure, not necessarily through any fault of our own Government, but owing to the fact that, while the five great Powers were sitting round the non-intervention table, or playing round it, one, if not two of them, was pouring troops and munitions into Spain in contravention of the nonintervention agreement. But the issue that we are faced with to-night does not

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in any way put this party, the Opposition, into a difficult situation. We are, of course, entitled to ask the Government if they are basing their case on this principle of non-intervention, whether, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Liberal party asked, they have consulted with the French Government. I would go further and ask whether this matter has been before the Non-Intervention Committee itself. If the Government are to base their case on this principle of non-intervention, then surely the decision that was taken by the Government should have been taken in conjunction with the other Governments represented on that committee.
When we ask that British ships should be given every protection up to the docks in Bilbao, we are not asking for our Government to contravene the Non-Intervention Agreement. The Home Secretary himself has told us that the agreement in effect is to refrain from interfering in the internal affairs of Spain. We on this side of the House are seeking to prevent General Franco from interfering in the internal affairs of Great Britain. So long as it is lawful for British ships to enter any port, whether it be the port of Bilbao or any other port, we say that it is an unlawful interference in the affairs of this country if General Franco is going to threaten British ships either with seizure or with being sunk in the event of their carrying out their lawful trading activities. The Home Secretary said that, in accordance with that principle, we must not treat the two sides differently. The Prime Minister said on Monday that there were mines of both sides in the approaches to Bilbao. Would it be treating both sides differently if British minesweepers were to sweep away the mines belonging to both sides?
Lieut.-Commander Agnew: Inside territorial waters?
Mr. Henderson: Whether it is inside territorial waters or anywhere else. I am answering the point of the Home Secretary that we must not differentiate. I am suggesting that if we sweep away the mines of both sides we are not differentiating between them. We were told by the Home Secretary that the Government have known of the existence of mines in the vicinity of Bilbao for two months, yet it was not until the end of
1076
last week, when it came to th enotice of His Majesty's Government that General Franco was threatening to sink or capture British ships seeking to enter the port of Bilbao, that the Government came to the House and said that they could not give any protection to British ships seeking to enter the port because of existing mines. It is a curious coincidence that the first we hear of the danger of mines is on a date after General Franco has issued his threats. At the same time that the Government inform the House and the world that they cannot tolerate any interference with British ships at sea, the protection they give with the right hand they immediately take away with the left.
The right hon. Member for Epping takes a different view from the Government as to whether or not a blockade exists at the present time. The Prime Minister has said that he does not think it amounts to a blockade, and also that no blockade is recognised. I doubt whether any lawyer will differ from me when I say that, so far as international law is concerned, there is no question but that there is no de jure blockade in operation outside the Port of Bilbao at the present time. What is the position? According to recognised legal authority where there is no recognition of belligerency, there is not, in the eyes of international law, any war at all, and if it is not a war there is no obligation on the part of neutrals to respect any blockade or to allow their merchant vessels to be stopped and searched on the high seas, or, indeed, anywhere else. On the authority of the Prime Minister we have it that the Spanish insurgents have not been recognised as belligerents, and, that being the case, they are not carrying out lawful operations and have no justification for their actions under international law. On the other hand, British ships seeking to enter the port of Bilbao are carrying out lawful operations, and, therefore, apart altogether from the question of danger from mines, I submit that they are entitled to the fullest protection by British ships of war.
An extraordinary situation has arisen. For the first time ships belonging to this country have been refused protection by British ships of war in carrying out, or seeking to carry out, lawful operations. I know of no precedent for such a situation. There may be many precedents

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when there is a lawful blockade. If the Spanish Government and the Spanish insurgents had both been recognised as belligerents my case would go, but I know of no precedent for refusing protection to British ships when engaged in lawful operations when they are unlawfully molested by ships of another nation. An important issue is involved in this question. It is not only a question of prestige, and, unfortunately, we cannot overlook even the question of prestige in the present circumstances. The view expressed by His Majesty's Government is not, apparently, the view which is accepted in other countries. According to the "Times" to-day the decision of the Government is described in Italy as virtually a de facto recognition of the blockade of Bilbao, and, further, it is stated that it is due to the energetic language of Franco, and that the Prime Minister's declaration is tantamount to a recognition of Franco as a belligerent. The Under-Secretary of State may reply that we are not responsible for the views taken in Italy or by General Franco and his associates.
But what a state of affairs. It is a blockade which is being maintained by a dilapidated battleship, two or three rusty gunboats and half-a-dozen converted fishing smacks, and this constitutes a force sufficient to justify the use of the term "blockade." When I heard over the radio two or three days ago that His Majesty's Ship "Hood" had been ordered to leave Gibraltar for an unknown destination, a 42,000-ton battleship, the largest warship in the world, with sufficient shooting strength to take on a squadron of six times the strength of that outside Bilbao, I thought that at last the Government were going to show the world that, while they had no desire to intervene in the war, they were going to take all legitimate steps to prevent unlawful interference with British ships by General Franco or anyone else. I was disappointed; and to-day I find that, instead of seeking to prevent this unlawful interference by this assumed blockade of Bilbao by the ships of General Franco, preventing our ships going in or out, our own fleet, headed by His Majesty's Ship "Hood" is going to blockade our ships in St. Jean de Luz.
I regret that the Government are not prepared to take firm action in this matter. There is not only a question of prestige
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involved, but a humanitarian question as well. In Bilbao there are more than 400,000 civilians, and it is no exaggeration to say that at least 50 per cent. of them are women and children. It is quite obviously the intention of the Spanish insurgents to blockade that city until it is starved into submission. I should have nothing to say, apart altogether from the brutaity which always accompanies blockades, if a state of war existed which was consonant with the rules of international law. Whatever our views may be we should have little cause to complain. I cannot go so far as to use the word "pirates" in respect of General Franco's warships, because two countries have recognised him as a belligerent, and, however much we may regret that fact, it enables General Franco to say that his ships are not to be treated as pirates under international law. At the same time, there is nothing which justifies these warships seeking to prevent our ships entering the port.
The only point the Government have in justification for their course of conduct is the question of mines. Personally, I felt sceptical about the statement made by the Home Secretary. I have every respect for our naval officers, and I must confess that the little war experience I had was most of it, fortunately, on land, I however crossed the Channel several times during the War and I was told that mines were strewn here and there. I never saw a mine. The only information obtainable by our naval officers is from the Basque Government on the one hand and General Franco on the other. I can well understand that they have been told by General Franco that there are mines outside Bilbao, but the Leader of the Opposition has read to the House a cable received from the head of the Basque Government in which he says that there are no mines blocking the entrance to the Port of Bilbao. I should have thought that the Basque Government were in a better position to judge on that matter than anyone else. Therefore, it is very unconvincing to be told that the entrance to the port of Bilbao is so dangerous as to make it undesirable for our ships to enter.
Lieut.-Commander Agnew: Are not our naval officers, who are reporting to the Admiralty every day and who are allowed to go freely on the sea outside Bilbao or

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near it, able to judge better than the Basque Government who are actually at enmity with the Spanish naval forces which have command of the sea? How can the Basque Government obtain information?
Mr. Henderson: I was dealing with the Basque Government in reference to the mines which have been supposed to be laid by the Basque Government; I am not dealing with mines laid by the insurgents. The Home Secretary said that he preferred to accept the view of British officers who have never seen the mines to the view of the Basque Government, who say that they have laid no mines at the entrance to the port. In view of the failure of the Government to protect British traders in carrying out their legitimate operations we are justified in tabling this Vote of Censure.
7.0 p.m.
Captain Cazalet: If only the speech of the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) could have been broadcast in Spain, and if the last part of his speech could have been heard and understood by the majority of the people there, I think it would have done more to ensure peace in that country to-day than anything which has been done since the war started. It is not often that the right hon. Gentleman's speeches in this House have the effect of calming the atmosphere that prevails, yet I feel that his speech to-day was one which, from the manner in which it was received by the House generally, showed that, although we may not agree with certain things he said, the House did approve a great deal of it. Far be it from me once again to raise the atmosphere of the House on this most contentious subject. I should, however, like to say a word in regard to conditions in Bilbao as I understand them to exist to-day. My information, I admit, is a few weeks' old, but it comes from a patriot who lived there for some time. I understand it is perfectly true that the Basque Government in Bilbao to-day is a Right Government, and that perfect law and order and full religious liberty are maintained, but that the Government itself, the Cabinet, is divided. The members of the so-called Nationalist Right Wing Basque Government are in a majority of only something like six to five, and therefore their hold on the
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situation is a precarious one. Although those conditions prevail in Bilbao itself and just in the surrounding districts outside, in Santander and elsewhere I understand that the extreme Left movement has got complete control.
Then the point has been raised, although I do not know how much bearing it has on this, that the Basque Government to-day claims to be an independent Government. In the telegram read by the Leader of the Opposition, the Basque Government claimed to be an independent Government. If that is the case, whatever may be said about our recognition of the Government of Spain to-day, we certainly have never recognised the Basque Government. I am not putting this forward as a strong point, but it has been raised in the French Press and elsewhere.
Mr. Noel-Baker: The position is that the autonomous Government in the Basque country has been recognised by the Government of Madrid to this extent, that it is represented in London by the Spanish Ambassador, who has a Basque collaborator who helps him.
Captain Cazalet: It is difficult exactly to define what "autonomous" or "independent" means, but if that is the case, I do not quite understand the great differences which presumably prevail today between the Basque Government and General Franco's regime because he has stated that in many matters he has in fact recognised the characteristics of various parts of Spain and given them a measure of federal rule. That point has been raised, and it may be one which has some influence on the question we are debating to-day. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last quite frankly stated that he and his sympathies are on the side of the Government; quite frankly, all my personal sympathies are on the side of Franco. Much as the hon. Member wishes the Government to win and much as I wish Franco to win, I wish even more, that this country can keep out of being involved in this particular conflict. Whatever may be the principle involved in the Spanish Civil War—some people think it is democracy and others that it is civilisation—in my opinion no principle involved in the Spanish Civil War is worth a European war or this country being involved.

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Personally, I do not believe that if General Franco prevails he is likely to establish a Fascist State in Spain, and, frankly, I do not believe that there will be ever established in Spain a Communistic regime on the lines of Russia. I have always thought that when this conflict is over the great majority of the Spanish people will reassert their national traditions and characteristics, but I admit that at the present moment partisans of both sides naturally use the ideas of both Fascism and Communism to support their arguments. I do not believe that when either side has won the Government which will eventually be in power will still be very sympathetic to those foreign nations which have supported it in the struggle. I believe that obligations are almost harder to bear than opposition. Therefore, I think that if we can maintain to the end of this struggle the non-intervention policy which we are pursuing to-day, after the struggle is over this country may well be the most popular country in Spain and the country to which Spaniards of all parties will look for assistance and advice.
All this depends on our being able to keep out of the struggle and maintain the attitude we have adopted up to date of non-intervention. We have pledged ourselves to this policy and have signed a non-intervention agreement. On the other hand, we have, up-to-date, refused to give either side what are called belligerent rights. In the past this country has given belligerent rights to both sides in a civil war. We did it in the War of American Independence, and we did what practically amounted to the same thing in the great Turkish War in the beginning of the nineteenth century. As an hon. Member has said, General Franco does represent at least half of Spain. At the present moment it seems to me that we are getting the worst of both worlds, as indeed we did the other day. On the one hand we have to proclaim that we do not recognise the blockade de jure, but in almost the same breath we have to admit that de facto we do, and that our ships cannot, must not, or should not, or are advised not to go to certain places. I wonder if it is possible for us to continue to maintain this attitude of non-intervention and at the same time deny belligerent rights to both sides.
Take the case of food ships going into Bilbao. Food may, and probably will,
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play a vital part in the success or resistance of the Basque Government. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Liberal benches said that if Bilbao fell it would mean that General Franco would have 50,000 men to withdraw from that front whom he could employ against the Spanish Government in another part of Spain. I am not questioning his figures, but the fact that he mentioned the matter surely shows the military importance of food in this particular situation. After all, terrible as it may be that we should deny to 400,000 or 500,000 people in Bilbao foodstuffs which they require today, it is hardly surely for us to take up this attitude. How many times in the War did not we say, "If only we could make the blockade more effective against Germany, the War would be over more quickly"? That may not be an exact analogy, but it seems to me a good enough case for us to be very careful before we take any very definite steps to insist on our rights in sending food to the people of Bilbao.
If we do not give belligerent rights, it seems to me that the position will be fraught with innumerable possibilities and dangers. At any moment if we insisted or apparently did not give advice to our ships and some German or Italian cruiser prevented or impeded their progress, and an incident happened, no one can foretell, especially in a civil war, how that incident would go. No one actually wants it to occur, but once it does 100 new possibilities and difficulties arrive. We are playing a most dangerous game in continuing this policy of refusing belligerent rights, and yet having to face every day the danger which the refusal of belligerent rights produces in Spanish waters. It would not to me present any humiliation if we granted those rights to both sides. If hon. Members on the Socialist benches think it is humiliation, I prefer some degree of humiliation rather than that we should be plunged into an international struggle, and it may be a European war, because of the refusal to give those belligerent rights.
The Government so far has pursued a policy of non-intervention, which has meant that this conflict has been confined to Spain. It may be that the day will come when there will be a stalemate, at least a stalemate for some time, between the two sides fighting in Spain. Then, I believe, we may be able to play a vital

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and an all important part in mediation. But our powers of mediation will only be sufficient to bring some measure of peace and sense to both sides if both sides believe that we have genuinely pursued a policy of non-intervention, and I am certain that as long as the Government continue to pursue this policy of nonintervention and of keeping this country out of the struggle then, even if it means giving belligerent rights or whatever else may be involved, the Government will receive the support of the majority of Members of this House.
7.15 p.m.
Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: There are one or two points made by the Home Secretary to which I would like to refer. The right hon. Gentleman laid very great stress upon the principle of non-intervention, and said that the British representative on the Non-Intervention Committee had tried to extend the operation of that principle. I must point out that food has never been affected by the deliberations of the Non-Intervention Committee and that no attempt has ever been made by our representatives on that committee to extend the operations of the committee to food. It is, however, very largely a question of foodships with which we are dealing to-night.
As to the Home Secretary's remarks on the question of mines and the reports from Naval officers in the Bilbao area, I would like to know whether the commanding officer of the "Blanche" ever reported that he felt unable to afford the protection or assistance necessary in order to get a British ship into Bilbao. We have had no information on that subject. The Home Secretary rather gave the impression that what was involved was the sweeping up of a very considerable mine-field, but I can hardly believe that to be the case. I am sceptical on that point, and I think it would probably be incorrect to say that a vast amount of mine-sweeping would be involved in order to give British merchant ships the protection necessary for entering the harbour. I do not believe it would necessitate large flotillas of minesweepers, as the Home Secretary indicated. I would like also to know whether the reports from the Naval authorities in those waters have indicated that a very considerable operation of mine-
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sweeping would be necessary in order to get British merchant ships into the port of Bilbao.
I know it would not be in order to widen the scope of the Debate as it has gone so far, but nevertheless I feel that I may fairly point out that the matter at issue to-night in this Motion of Censure is really on all fours with every incident that has occurred in foreign politics since the Manchukuo incident. We always hear exactly the same story in every crisis in foreign affairs. The Government's intentions are always the very best; they say so themselves and therefore, of course, it is true. They never have any intention of taking one side or the other, or to take sides between Fascism and democracy, but are always perfectly neutral. They always profess complete impartiality and neutrality, but the result is always the same. Our foreign policy invariably inures to the benefit of dictators and against the interests of democracy. It was so in the case of Manchukuo and it was so in Abyssinia. In every issue raised by Hitler since his accession to power we have led the retreat of the democratic Powers before him. Equally in Spain, every act of the Government had benefited Franco, has benefited Italy and Germany, and has operated against the Spanish Government. Our foreign policy with regard to Spain has shown the hallmark of Conservatism, which is expediency without any reference to principle.
Speaking at Bewdley during the weekend, the Prime Minister said that we were not going to take sides in any struggle between Fascism and Communism. But in all these instances it is clear that, when faced with that issue, the National Government have always opted for Fascism against democracy. They profess to be attached to something which they call democracy, but democracy in their minds means a Tory or a National Government in power on the benches opposite. The moment the principle of democracy means a workers' government in power on those benches, their fondness for democracy will vanish overnight like a dream. The Government are certainly showing no fondness for democracy in Spain at the present time. When the present First Lord of the Admiralty was Foreign Secretary, he came down very heavily on the side of dictatorship in the Abyssinian dispute, and now that he is

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First Lord he seems to be enjoying using the Fleet in Spanish waters on behalf of a would-be dictator in Spain. It is clear that the Government have a foot in Franco's camp. The answers which have been given to questions in the House show clearly that that is so.
My particular interest in this matter is not so much on behalf of one side or the other in Spain but that I am totally unable to understand the indifference to vital British interests in the Mediterranean shown by the the National Government both in regard to Abyssinia and Spain. Undoubtedly our interests in the Mediterranean have been very gravely compromised by these events. An answer given at Question Time about the port of Assab is an example of what I mean. There is not a Naval officer on the active list who does not know that our whole position in the Mediterranean has been very gravely compromised.
During the Debate on the Adjournment, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) impressed upon the House that Mussolini was not a bluffer. I disagree with him. I think the book recently published by General De Bono shows that in the Abyssinian adventure there was a very large element of bluff to which we yielded, with the result that our position in the Mediterranean has been compromised. Why are vital British interests and prestige in the Mediterranean being jeopardised in this way? Let hon. Members consider what is happening in Greece as the result of these events. I understand that Greece has now passed completely under the influence of Germany. Why are we so reluctant to declare what are our vital interests in this Spanish conflict? It is ridiculous to pretend that we have no such interests, and to adopt this absurd attitude in regard to the Spanish conflict of "May the best man win." We have vital interests there.
Why do we hesitate to say on Spain what has been declared over and over again by Government spokesmen, both in this House and outside, in regard to the Low Countries and the Channel Ports? No Government spokesman has ever been afraid to say that it is not a matter of indifference to this country who possesses or seeks to dominate the Low Countries and the Channel Ports. Why is there
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this reluctance on the part of Government spokesmen to say similarly that it cannot be a matter of indifference to this country who possesses or dominates the Western approaches to the Mediterranean? That is the issue involved in the Spanish conflict. If the Spanish war were a conflict between two contending factions in Spain, my feelings might go to one side or to the other, and I might agree to let them fight it out. But this is not a Spanish civil war. It is an invasion of Spain by Germany and Italy. It is an invasion which seeks to establish in Spain a Government which will be under the influence or domination of Germany or Italy. It is an invasion which seeks to establish in Spain, not a Government which shall be acceptable to the majority of the Spanish people, but a Government acceptable to or under the domination of Germany or Italy. Does the Foreign Secretary maintain that we can be indifferent to such a result? I maintain that we cannot.
Our interests in the Western approaches to the Mediterranean are just as vital to us as the question of the Low Countries and the Channel Ports, and I cannot understand why we do not make a firm declaration to that effect. Italy does not forbear to make declarations about Spain. She has declared that she will not tolerate a Government in Catalonia of a political complexion unacceptable to her. She has declared that the Italian armies will not leave Spain until the Spanish Government has been defeated. While these declarations are being made by Italy, we abstain from making any declaration as to our vital interests in the Western approach to the Mediterranean.
I feel that it is impossible to avoid the conclusion that, while our Government will preserve the outward forms where the Spanish Government is concerned, they would view a victory by Franco with very considerable equanimity, to put it as moderately as I can. I am certain that had their political sympathies happened to be with the Spanish Government, instead of being where they are, their conduct in regard to the Bilbao matter would have been very different. I believe I am voicing the opinion of all my hon. Friends on these benches when I say, without any particular party bias, that in recent weeks it has been pitiable to hear

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the British Foreign Secretary, in making statements and answering questions, endeavouring to put the best gloss he could upon Italian and German evasions, duplicities and double-dealings in regard to Spain. It is becoming a pathological study of almost morbid interest to see how much the Foreign Secretary will stand. At any rate, at the present moment Franco is certainly giving him a good dose of medicine to swallow as regard the port of Bilbao. As usual the Government's words are very brave. The Prime Minister says that no interference with British shipping will be tolerated, and then he hastens to add that, of course, our shipping must not go where Franco does not want it to go. That is the National Government's version of the old nursery rhyme:
"'Mother, may I go out to swim?'
'Yes, my little daughter,
But mind if you go out to swim
Don't go near the water.'"
That is exactly what the Government are saying to British shipping: "There must be no interference with you or any sort, but do not go where Franco does not want you to go." We say that we will not accord belligerent rights to Franco but we accept his blockade of this port, and so, ipso facto, we are intervening against the Basque Government. We say "No interference with British shipping," but if a British ship wants to go to Bilbao she has to go without any protection from the British Navy. Why should Franco worry about whether he is accorded belligerent rights or not, or whether his blockade of Bilbao is recognised or not? He has got all he wants. Like every other decision of this highly impartial and icily unprejudiced Government, this decision has caused dismay to the Spanish Government and rejoicing to the insurgent leaders. That has been the case with every decision which they have reached in the name of non-intervention.
Although not recognised as a belligerent, Franco can institute an effective blockade of this port, because the British Government have been conveniently scared by his tales about mines. Why should he not extend the process, as, indeed, he appears to be doing until the collection of scrap iron he calls his naval forces have scared our Government into
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complete impotence in Spanish waters? Why do the Government condone such breaches as this of international law? Why are we saying to Franco that we shall not tolerate any interference with British shipping anywhere, when by anywhere we mean those places where he has no wish to interfere with our shipping? What a roar from the British lion. Once again the Prime Minister enjoys the commendation of Lord Beaverbrook, who said last night that this pusillanimous, equivocal policy was eminently sane and sensible? What a testimony for the right hon. Gentleman to take into retirement with him.
As Franco has no belligerent rights we are entitled to protect our shipping against him, inside territorial waters where the Spanish Government is the statutory authority. The legal position is perfectly clear. The ships have a right to go to Bilbao, they are entitled to the protection of the British Government in getting there, and the Basque Government has the right to receive and retain their cargoes. But the British Government refuse to British shipowners that protection which British shipowners pay taxes in order to have. Even if Franco enjoyed belligerent rights, do our naval authorities in those waters report that he is able to make the blockade of Bilbao effective? We heard something earlier from the Home Secretary about what the commanding officer of His Majesty's Ship "Blanche" said. With great respect to that officer, who is, I am sure, a most capable and efficient officer, he must necessarily be a comparatively junior officer, having regard to the ship which he commands. We have now moved His Majesty's Ship "Hood" to those waters and it would be interesting to know what reports we are receiving from the flag officer in command of that ship. Is he reporting that Franco is able to achieve an effective blockade of Bilbao? How can we reconcile the statement that Franco can do so with the fact that ships are sailing to and from Bilbao with considerable regularity?
We are told that if we protect our food-ships going to Basque ports, Germany and Italy may protect munition ships going to rebel ports. That is one of the arguments put forward in favour of this policy. But there is all the difference in the world between the two cases. Food

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ships are not affected by the proceedings of the Non-Intervention Committee and munitions are. Have we arrived at the point that the proceedings of the Non-Intervention Committee are so farcical that we cannot do what is legal lest other members of that committee use it as a pretext to do what is illegal? If so, what is the value of the Non-Intervention Committee, and of the Anglo-Italian Mediterranean Agreement—the "gentleman's agreement" as it has been called? Food supplies are neither munitions nor contraband of war, nor, as I say, are they affected by the proceedings of the Non-Intervention Committee. Nothing that we have signed interferes with our right to protect food ships going to Basque ports. When we were being informed about the position on Monday the Prime Minister said there was risk from bombing and mines in the approaches to Bilbao. What does he mean by "the approaches"? Is he thinking of the territorial waters or of the approaches to the territorial waters? What are the right hon. Gentleman's grounds for asserting that Bilbao Harbour has been sown with mines? Has it been sown with mines by the Basque authorities, in order to keep out the food ships which they want? Or are we to believe that Franco's naval forces have sown mines in the harbour itself? The Basque Government, which ought to know, claims that the approaches have been cleared of mines and are protected by shore batteries with a range of 10 miles. Therefore protection can be afforded up to the three-mile limit by our Navy, and inside territorial waters by the Basque Government, by means of shore batteries and of certain ships which they possess.
Have our naval authorities been told to investigate this position? Has the flag officer in command of His Majesty's Ship "Hood" been told to investigate the actualities and realities of the situation and report upon them? The Basque Government say that no rebel warships have been seen within 11 miles of the coast. Are we to disbelieve those statements by the Basque Government? Do the National Government contest them or not? Further, on what authority do the Government forbid our merchant ships to go to Bilbao? Can a ship go there if she wishes? Suppose a ship decides to go there, do we refuse to afford her any protection and tell her that she goes at her
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own risk? If so, it is no wonder that a report has appeared to the effect that the rebel authorities have now given warning that any British ship found in territorial waters will be seized or sunk. The Press of Italy, a country which is a member of the Non-Intervention Committee, is, I see, recommending the rebel leader to torpedo and sink any British ship found in Spanish territorial waters. Is there any evidence that the masters of British merchantmen are afraid to go to Bilbao? And, since we have been hearing about the opinions of naval officers, I would like to ask whether any naval officer has been found to say that he could not give such merchant ships all the protection they require if he were given orders to do so and bring them safely into the harbour? Has any naval officer been found to say that he would not gladly undertake that job and guarantee to bring it to a successful conclusion?
Captain McEwen: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is missing the point. If food ships got into Bilbao, it would be a breach of non-intervention because it would be raising a siege, and whatever we may think of the rights or wrongs of the dispute, General Franco has a right to besiege a place in the course of the civil war, if he chooses to do so.
Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: There are several answers to the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I mention a few of them. First, Franco has not been granted belligerent rights. Secondly, we heard today that the front line is many miles away from Bilbao. Thirdly, food, as I mentioned earlier, is neither munitions nor contraband of war and has been specifically excluded from the matters dealt with by the Non-Intervention Committee. I should like to refer to the speech of the Foreign Secretary at Liverpool, which has been hailed in the German Press as a sign of weakness—of course, a very good augury for a Western Pact with Germany. I read the newspaper reports of that speech with great care. Of course, we have often been told by the Prime Minister that Press reports frequently misrepresent the speeches of Ministers. However, I read this report carefully, and it recalled a conversation which I heard a short time ago about the Foreign Secretary. Somebody asked, "Do you think he carries any guns?" The reply was, "Oh yes, he simply

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bristles with them, but they are all three-pounders." Certainly that speech was a salvo of three-pounders. The right hon. Gentleman said "there could only be good relations if countries take account of the rights of others." Well, we certainly have been very solicitous about the rights of the Spanish Government in this conflict. Is a policy which always favours the rebels and always works against the Government, consistent with the passage in the right hon. Gentleman's speech in which he referred to the principle of "live and let live"?
Then, the Foreign Secretary invited all concerned to regard Spain as "a field for co-operation." So that the trials of the Spanish people may lead "to a realisation of the advantages of co-operation which would be of infinite benefit to all." I remember the Foreign Secretary saying something similar to that after the disaster in Abyssinia. He told the House that, after all, the Abyssinians might not have suffered in vain if their disaster led to a happier state of affairs in Europe. But imagine addressing that language to the present rulers of Germany and Italy. Why it is simply the language of Rotary and "uplift" and has no relation to the practical problems with which we are confronted. What is wanted in these circumstances, as in all difficult crises, when it is hard to see the way, is to abandon expediency and hold fast to the certain things which we have got, in the shape of international law and respect for treaties and respect for the sovereign rights of other Governments. I believe that we shall find the real clue to the way out of the difficulties in which we are involved by the Spanish crisis, not in expediency, not in the miserable sort of stuff which we have to listen to at present about this so-called blockade of Bilbao, but in holding fast to the principles of international law and adherence to our signature to the Covenant of the League of Nations.
7.43 p.m.
Mr. Harold Nicolson: I hoped that the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher) was going to confine himself to the question of Manchukuo. He evidently realised that the point at issue regarding Bilbao was much too narrow and too technical
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for a Vote of Censure such as hon. Members opposite have moved. He knows about these matters and is aware from his own experience of the intricacies, the difficulties and the dangers which arise in a case of this nature and render it almost impossible to lay down general principles or to follow in any rigid or specific manner the precepts of international law. I was sorry, therefore, when the hon. and gallant Member left the safe territories of Manchukuo and passed on to discuss and consider, first certain technical details and then questions of international law, on which I doubt whether he was very well informed. In fact, the whole difficulty, the whole controversy, arises owing to the fortunate, or unfortunate, fact that we have never recognised either side as a belligerent. If we had done so this Debate would never have occurred, and everything would have proceeded in a completely normal manner.
This situation places us in an increasing difficulty, which I think hon. Friends on this side of the House are apt to underestimate. I think there are many hon. Members on this side who do not realise and who have not quite understood the appalling amount of emotional sympathy, sentimental excitement and prejudice that will be aroused by this Bilbao incident. We must face the fact clearly that Franco is unlikely to be able to carry this port by storm; and we must make clear the fact that by direct force of arms he may not be able to secure the capitulation of the city. We must, too, face the important fact that it is only by the slow starvation of its inhabitants that he will enforce surrender. We must face the fact that that prolonged, unpleasant and poignant siege is likely progressively to cause in this and other countries a movement of sympathy and passion which will inflame still further the prejudices with which this whole Spanish question is surrounded. We have to realise that it works both ways. It is thus for us to admit that this refusal to risk our ships in these infested, dangerous and explosive waters is a bitter pill. It is not pleasant. It is a potion which is almost nauseating. It is a draught which I, for one, shall most unwillingly drink. The point is—and I put it to hon. Members opposite—it is not so much a question whether this pill is a bitter pill or a sweet pill. We all know it is an extremely bitter pill.

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The question is, have we got to swallow it? The answer is that surely we have.
Why? The very facts that make the pill so bitter make it necessary to swallow it. The fact that the food question is now essentially a military question at Bilbao, that food or starvation will be the determining factor in the military operations in those regions, renders any action we may take to provide one side with the elements of defence against this starvation, or to provide the other side assistance to enhance that starvation is an act of intervention. I sympathise with the feeling of hon. Members opposite that the intervention is worth undertaking; but I cannot understand the contention that because food is not on the list of contraband within the meaning of the Non-Intervention Pact, it would not be in fact and in spirit an act of intervention for us to convoy our food ships into Bilbao harbour and to take steps backed by the whole preponderance of our great naval power to carry out functions which one side in the dispute are not strong enough to carry out themselves.
Hon. Members opposite have continually talked, and I think the right hon. Baronet the Leader of the Liberal party also talked, of the denial of rights to the Basque Government. But the person who denies the Basque Government rights at sea is Franco, because he has command of the sea. We cannot possibly allow in this House the doctrine to be established that if a person be beaten in a naval warfare and we do not go to his help, we are denying his rights. We must face the fact, which to me is an irrevocable fact, that Franco has command of the sea, and we cannot say that because the Basque Government have lost that command we want to help them to regain it. This is not a question, as the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton said, of sending a few minesweepers. If we only sent one minesweeper it would be exactly the same in principle. If a ship flying the White Ensign goes to aid the Basque Government in carrying out the naval duties which they ought to be able to perform themselves, we are intervening.
Mr. Maxton: What about the movements of the "Hood"?
Mr. Nicolson: If we sent the "Hood" into Bilbao Harbour we should be intervening, and I hope that we shall not.
Lieut.-Commander Fletcher: Who has made the suggestion about the British Navy wanting to assist the Basque Government in regaining command of the sea?
Mr. Nicolson: Nobody, but the right hon. Baronet said we were denying rights to the Basque Government. It is they who have lost their rights.
Sir A. Sinclair: That is one of the points which is disputed. The Basque Government say they have complete command, and they claim that they have it far beyond the three miles by the action of their shore batteries and minesweepers. In fact, in the last fortnight 32 ships have passed in and out of the harbour without interruption or damage. What is happening is that the Government refuse to give protection to our ships against Franco on the high seas.
Mr. Nicolson: I do not think so. I think that the right hon. Baronet is wrong. I would remind him of what I said at the beginning: that if it were not for the unfortunate fact that we hesitated to recognise both sides, this question would never have arisen. During the First Balkan War the Dardenelles were declared in the vaguest manner to be a dangerous zone, and as the Turks were recognised as belligerents, we accepted that. If we had recognised the belligerents in this Spanish case, the present controversy would not have arisen.
I return to the point I was making. If we now aid the Basque authorities by ships flying the White Ensign that would be intervention. Although that is a perfectly legitimate policy, it cannot be said that to break the de facto blockade would not be to take a definite line of intervention which would immediately give the Italians an excuse to tear up the whole agreement. We really must bear that in mind. With the utmost patience and skill and the most extraordinary toleration, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and Lord Plymouth have built up this barrier. I admit that it is a rotten barrier. I admit that it consists of sandbags and that the water pours in between the sandbags, but it is something. It has kept out the maximum

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inundation, and if you begin pulling away one of the sandbags by intervening in Bilbao, the whole flood will come rushing through with added pressure and more torrential fury. It is because I so dread any excuse to the Fascist powers for renewed intervention at the very moment when they themselves are beginning to think it was a mistake, and because I so dread the moment when we may get their pride, ambitions and energies rekindled in terms of intervention, that I shall vote against this Motion of Censure.
7.56 p.m.
Mr. Adamson: The discussion to-day has concentrated largely round what might be termed high foreign policy, but actually the Vote of Censure is moved in order to deplore the lack of action of the Government in protecting our merchant service. I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that it was not through the Foreign Office that instructions were given as to the activities of the merchant service. Instructions were given by the naval commander and endorsed by the Board of Trade. Consequently, the action of the Government might be characterised as a repression of our ordinary trade and commerce. The Board of Trade has long had traditional connection with the merchant service. Personally, I have similar connections, not merely in the building of the merchant ships, but in the family relations who are in the service. I am assured that both officers and crews in the merchant service consider that the action of the Government is an infringement of their rights and a departure from the customary protection on their behalf, which amounts to an encroachment upon their liberties and an offence against the traditions of the occupation that they follow.
We have also to recollect that in the days of the Great War it was not merely the fighting Fleets that kept the high seas open. The merchant service ran even greater risks to provide foodstuffs for the people of this country, and we are going to deny them the right to-day to carry on ordinary trade and commerce in providing foodstuffs for the people of a country who are being attacked from inside and have never even comtemplated that they would be confronted with such a situation. The hon. Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Nicolson) seemed to take it
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to be part of ordinary warfare that a blockade could be put up with armed forces to starve a people into submission. Perhaps in actually recognised wars that may be considered part of the plan and scheme to defeat an enemy. But in a civil war of this kind surely there is a humanitarian aspect involved in the right of British seamen to take food, even in a neutral capacity, to the people who are being beseiged. Surely on that ground alone, apart from the tradition of our commerce and trade, which has always had open seas and open ports, the British merchant service should not be deprived of the right to provide people with the essentials of life.
The hon. Member for Leicester, West, in his interpretation of non-intervention, proved to a large extent only what we on this side have been impressing on the House for the last six months. While the Committee of Non-Intervention have been seeking to interpret and elucidate what it actually did mean and have been coming to decisions in stages for the banning of munitions and even of foreign volunteers, they have never held it to be within their province to consider that food should be kept out of the country, and food is not included in the embargoes put on what would be considered contraband.
I plead the rights of the shipping interests and maintain that the Government have done wrong in not affording protection for those ships going into the ports of Spain. It may be that this attitude will have its reactions at some future time, because the officers and men of the mercantile marine are not signed on as part of the forces that have to be brought into war. It may be that in future those officers and men may consider whether it is part of their duties to run blockades and do actions that are voluntary, as far as their own service is concerned, and different from the ordinary trade and commerce in respect of which they serve under signed articles. Because of these things, we are amazed at the Government's attitude. It is, in effect, a humiliation of ourselves as a nation before the world and a humiliation to our merchant service, which is prepared at all times not only to face the dangers and difficulties of their ordinary avocation but to run the gauntlet in maintaining the right of way on the high seas. It will be a bad day for British honour and

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tradition if the Government are going to waive those rights so that the merchant service cannot carry out their duties in the proper way. It is only because we wish to see preserved those ordinary trading and commercial relations between countries of all political colours, without distinction or preference, that some of us, at least, will stand by the traditions of the merchant service and endeavour to see that they are properly safeguarded.
8.6 p.m.
Mr. Sandys: I have listened with sympathy to many of the remarks of the hon. Member for Cannock (Mr. Adamson). One would only like to think that he was right when he suggested that a civil war could be conducted in a more humanitarian spirit than ordinary wars between nations. Unfortunately, it is the experience of history that civil wars have turned out, in practice, to be the more savage and brutal of the two. The Opposition have to-day complained that the Government have been lacking in energy in protecting British shipping. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was almost Palmerstonian in his attitude towards British rights at sea, but I wonder whether the Opposition's rather new-found solicitude for those rights is really a solicitude for British shipping. It seemed to me that their solicitude was really more for the Spanish Government, and that British shipping was to them merely a secondary consideration, dragged in in order to help their case. I think my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made a most convincing case for the Government's action. Not only did he meet the rather flimsy complaint of the Opposition about the Government's alleged lack of impartiality, by which the Opposition mean that the Government have not shown sufficient partiality towards the Spanish Government; not only did he show that the Government had fully maintained their policy of non-intervention, but he certainly satisfied me that the Government had afforded most adequate protection to British shipping.
So far do I consider it unnecessary to add any words of mine in defence of the Government's action in regard to the protection of British shipping that I will go so far as to say that in my opinion the Government are affording too much protection to British shipping in Spanish waters. I share the view expressed by
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my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Nicolson) that the Government will sooner or later have to recognise the belligerent status of the combatants, and the sooner the better. I therefore wish to discuss the question as to whether we are wise in continuing to deny belligerent rights to the combatants in this Spanish civil war. The sowing of mines off the coasts of Spain raises this issue in an acute and urgent form. The sowing of mines in peace time, whether carried out by a sovereign Government or by an unrecognised rebel community, whether the mines are sown inside or outside territorial waters, is a breach of international law. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party was leading us a little astray when he tried to make a definite distinction between the right to sow mines inside and outside the three-mile limit and between a Government and a rebel community sowing mines. The fact remains that at international law the sowing of mines by any authority in peace time, or before belligerent rights are accorded, is a breach of international law.
The Prime Minister told us on Monday that mines have beeen sown in Spanish waters by both sides. Since some of these mines have been sown by the Spanish Government to whom we have not accorded belligerent rights, I would ask His Majesty's Government whether we have made a protest to the Spanish Government on the ground that no country in peace time is allowed to sow mines. If likewise some of these mines have been sown by the insurgents, then the position is even more complicated. The sowing of mines by an unrecognised community is at international law an act of piracy and constitutes an offence against all nations. If we have denied belligerent rights to the insurgents, their warships according to international law are pirates, and we, as a great maritime Power, would therefore have a duty to take active measures to sink those pirate vessels or to drive them off the seas. I am merely stating the position at international law as I understand it. If, as is the case, we are not prepared to take that drastic action, which I would be the last to support, surely we should do well to recognise the belligerent status of both combatants, and thus regularise our position.
How far have we already tacitly recognised belligerent status? Is not the whole paraphernalia of non-intervention,

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the presence of British, French, Italian, German and Russian warships around the coast of Spain, operating a system of control, clear proof that we have recognised in all but name the existence of a state of war? Surely it is. Again, if we do not recognise that the insurgent ships are lawful belligerents, and they are therefore technically pirates—because there is no intermediary status at international law between a pirate and a belligerent—how do we justify the manner in which we have dealt hitherto with cases of interference by insurgent warships with our merchantmen? There have been cases when a British warship has been summoned to the assistance of a British merchantman which had been stopped and fired upon by an insurgent warship. If, in view of our non-recognition of belligerent status, those insurgent warships are pirates, why is it, I ask, that British warships did not open fire, as they do in similar cases in the China Seas, where similar incidents occur from time to time? I am not suggesting that they should have done so, but I am urging that we put ourselves in a regularised position in relation to international law. If we do not recognise the belligerent status of the insurgent forces, how is it that after those incidents we lodged official protests both with the insurgent naval commanders and with the insurgent Government authorities at Burgos? Surely the lodging of official protests, and the fact that we refrained from firing upon insurgent warships which had interfered with our merchantmen, does imply a certain tacit recognition of belligerency.
Are we not, in fact, playing the dangerous game of trying to get the best of both worlds? Is it possible to deny to the combatants the rights and status of belligerents and yet at the same time to try to hold them responsible for observing the rules of war? I am glad that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite share my view, though I am surprised, because hitherto, so far from wishing to accord belligerent status to the combatants, they have always advocated the only course which is quite impossible, and that is to accord all rights to one side and none to the other. I am advocating that we should accord belligerent rights to both combatants. What have we got to lose by doing so? The Government, if
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they do not recognise belligerent status, which would be the normal thing to do, and would be in accordance with almost every precedent in history—
Mr. Maxton: No, the normal thing to do would be to recognise the Spanish Government.
Mr. Sandys: I think that the hon. Member will understand that you cannot accord belligerent rights to a Government, which implies recognising a state of belligerency, unless you likewise recognise the opponent against whom it is fighting. There must be two sides in a war, and if you are going to recognise a state of belligerency you have to accord belligerent rights to troth sides.
Mr. Maxton: The hon. Member misunderstood me. I did not say "recognise a state of belligerency," but recognise the Spanish Government.
Mr. Sandys: We already do that at the moment. [HON. MEMBERS "No!"] I understand that the Spanish Government have been asked to send representatives to the Coronation, and that in itself is evidence that we recognise the Spanish Government. There is only one Ambassador from Spain in this country, and he is the representative of the Spanish Government. But I do not think it would be in order for us to discuss that question. We are dealing at the moment with a Vote of Censure regarding the protection of British shipping, and it is in that connection that I am raising the question of belligerency. Now what have we got to lose by recognising belligerent rights? The first thing that occurs to us is the question of our commitments under the non-intervention system. Our minds are set at rest immediately on that score. The Foreign Secretary said on 1st December: "There is nothing incompatible between adherence to the policy of non-intervention and the recognition of belligerent rights." Therefore, we need have no anxiety on that account.
There are, however, two consequences of recognition which do deserve consideration. The first is that we would have to concede to both sides the right of searching our ships for contraband of war. However, as this trade in contraband of war, principally arms and munitions, is already forbidden by an Act which we passed in this Parliament, and as rigid

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control by the Non-Intervention Powers already exists, this would impose no additional restrictions upon the freedom of British shipping. Incidentally, it is well also to remember that non-contraband goods, even if the property of the enemy, are, under the Declaration of Paris of 1856, protected by a neutral flag. Therefore, all goods on a neutral ship except contraband of war would be unaffected by a decision to recognise a state of belligerency.
The second consequence of recognising belligerent status would be to impose upon us the obligation to recognise the existence of blockades which are effectively established by either side. To be valid, a blockade has to be effective. The insurgents' navy appears, in fact, to have established such a blockade in the case of Bilbao, but, of course, so long as we do not recognise belligerent rights that blockade, as far as we are concerned, does not legally exist. But let us examine what our position would be if we had recognised belligerent rights. So long as this blockade continued to be effectively maintained it would be unlawful for our ships to attempt to enter the port of Bilbao. Since, however, our Government, on account of the existence of these minefields, have already told our merchantment to keep away from the port of Bilbao, it does not seem that our ships would be any worse off than they are now as a result of a recognition of belligerent rights. It will, therefore, be seen that the recognition of belligerent rights in the circumstances of the present case would impose no further restrictions upon our shipping beyond those which already exist.
If there is nothing to be lost by recognising belligerent rights let us see what we might gain by it. I submit that the advantage would be considerable. It would put us, in the first place, in a position to hold the insurgents responsible for loss of life or damage to property. The Spanish Government can, in any case, be held responsible. Their position in that respect would be unaffected, but recognition would immeasurably strengthen our hands in dealing with the insurgents. The recognition of belligerent status would put us in a position to uphold our rights as neutrals, without having to resort to force to do so, which is the only manner in which we can do it at the present
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moment. At present if our ships are interfered with by the Spanish Government, that constitutes an act of war; if by the insurgents, it constitutes an act of piracy. But any protests or claims we may make to the insurgents, so long as we do not recognise them as belligerents, must necessarily be ineffectual and unimpressive. How much better would it not be if we were to regularise our position and place it upon a proper legal footing, compatible with the facts of the situation?
Further, we must not forget that we, as a great sea Power, have, in the past, often had to claim for ourselves the rights of search and blockade, and that we may on some future occasion have to claim those rights again. This is an extremely important point. We must see to it that we do not prejudice our own rights for the future. If, contrary to all historic precedent, we deny these rights to others, it may well be that others may in turn deny them to us on some future occasion. Lastly, there is the question of whether something cannot be done to limit the suffering in this unhappy dispute. There are many people who believe, as I do, that in this war, with its confined theatre of operations and its limited dimensions, it should be possible by outside mediation to mitigate the extent of the horrors and atrocities. But efforts of that kind will continue to be seriously handicapped so long as we and the other Powers refuse to accord belligerent status, and thus make it impossible for any formal, binding agreement to be negotiated with the insurgents, as a recognised belligerent community.
The precise circumstances will never be quite the same in every case. History seldom exactly repeats itself. Let us not, however, imagine that the problem with which we are faced to-day is altogether a new one. It is a problem which has faced Governments throughout history. In fact, it bears a very close resemblance to many features of the American civil war and to those of the Greek rebellion against the Turks, both of which occurred in the last century. In this connection I would like to recall the well known words used by Canning in 1823 when explaining the reasons which had led the British Government to accord belligerent rights to the combatants in the Greek rebellion:

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"The recognition of the belligerent character of the Greeks has been necessitated by the impossibility of treating as pirates a population of a million souls, and the importance of bringing within the bounds of civilised war a contest which has been marked on both sides by disgusting barbarities."
I ask His Majesty's Government to reflect whether those considerations are not equally valid in the case of the Spanish dispute, and I appeal to the Government, with the object of securing the safety of British shipping, of ensuring the success of their non-intervention policy and of assisting the efforts which are being made to humanise this horrible conflict, to reconsider the advisability of according belligerent rights to the combatants in the Spanish civil war.
8.33 p.m.
Mr. Maxton: I rise to support the Vote of Censure moved by the Leader of the Opposition, and to congratulate him on the tone, the temper and the content of the speech which he made. On this occasion, I find myself in complete harmony with the point of view expressed by him and by the Leader of the Liberal party. I have listened to the Government's defence, put by its official spokesman, the Home Secretary, and I was completely unimpressed. I felt that, although he is a great lawyer, with experience in dealing successfully with all sorts of cases, it was the fact that he had to present a worse case than he had ever had before which made him so completely unsuccessful to-day in his attempt to present the case for the Government. I have been a little more impressed by the voices of his supporters since. I was impressed by the peroration of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), by the disquisitions upon international law by the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Nicolson) and the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Sandys), but I felt that all three speeches were rather in the nature of diversions, attempts to drag away the attention and interest of the House from the point at issue, and were not a defence of the Government's position.
The hon. Member for Norwood was particularly interesting in his presentation of the international law governing this issue, and I congratulate him on the way in which he has absorbed its principles. Some 20 years ago, for some reason that I have
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now forgotten, I took a course of international public law under a distinguished professor of Glasgow University. I must say that, at 20 years' distance, my impressions are very blunt of what I learned so far as details are concerned, but one thing that I did learn about international public law, as the result of my studies at that time, was that there was not any such animal. It just does not exist. There was a lot of aspirations, a lot of things that nations would like to see done, and a lot of things that it had been laid down at The Hague and elsewhere that they had all agreed would be done; but there never was any occasion in the whole of history on which that body of aspirations and rules and regulations had ever been observed by anyone who felt it desirable to break them. Therefore, I am not going into the question of international law, nor am I going into a general consideration of the Spanish issue; I am dealing simply with the issue that is before us here, as laid down in the Vote of Censure.
Although I have admitted that I am a whole-hearted partisan on the side of the Spanish Government, and have urged that the Government here should recognise the Spanish Government and give it all the ordinary rights that are normally accorded to Governments in various countries, I have never asked the British Government to intervene in a warlike way on behalf of the Spanish Government. I have simply asked that the Spanish Government should have all the normal rights that a properly constituted Government gets, and I have asserted here again and again that the Spanish Government would have got those rights if it had been a Government of the ordinary sort that is acceptable to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. The reason why it did not get those rights was because it was a working-class Government, a Government that had expressed its desire to raise the status of the poor people of Spain. Because of that, it was accused of being red, and under the influence of Moscow, and all the rest of it, although every one of us on this side of the House knows that, if there is one working-class movement in the whole of Europe that is not merely not under the influence of Moscow, but antagonistic to the conceptions of Moscow, it is the working-class movement of Spain. Because the Spanish Government was a Government voicing and trying to give

1105
effect to the aspirations of a poor working-class population for better conditions of life, hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite dub it a red Government, talk about being non-interventionists, and say that Britain should keep its hands clean.
I admit that there are many disadvantages in sitting on this bench, but there are advantages also. I know what the men who sit beside me on this bench really think, and I know what many hon. Members opposite think. Some of them have not hidden it. The overwhelming mass of opinion on the Government side of the House is not non-interventionist, but definitely pro-Franco. If I had given some of them notice about it. I would have mentioned their names and constituencies. They do not differ from the 'others except that they are a little more outspoken. In those circumstances there can never be an honest and straightforward policy. It is no good talking nonintervention and thinking and acting pro-Franco. That is the position in which we have been, and it is no wonder that the other Governments of the world feel that they are quite entitled and are able with impunity to treat the British Government, the British population and British shipping with contempt.
The hon. Member for West Leicester, in one of those clever speeches which he delivers, showed that for food to go into Bilbao is to help the Spanish Government. But these ships are not going into Bilbao to help the Spanish Government; they are going into Bilbao to deliver goods that have been bought from British merchants in the normal course of British trade. The British Government says that they are not to be allowed to do it, and that it will not support them in the doing of it. I read in an evening paper to-night about a ship going in ballast, with no cargo, that has been held up in France. It was going to the North of Spain empty, to get an iron ore cargo that is definitely needed for our purposes here. I understand that the Government are anxious to get iron ore into this country, and that the Navy is incapable of securing that that British ship, carrying either food or anything else, can go safely into an odd Spanish port and get iron ore that is wanted by manufacturers in this country—probably manufacturers who are trying to give effect to orders placed with them by the
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Government. That is not merely carrying out the non-intervention policy; it is not merely saying that we are not taking the side of one belligerent or the other; it is saying to Franco, "So decent are we that not only will we not interfere with your internal operations, but we will allow you to interfere with our internal operations." Franco says now in so many words that Great Britain is not to have her iron ore.
All of those ships that have been held up, waiting to go into Bilbao, even supposing that they had food cargoes, were hoping and expecting that they would have some other cargo to bring out. That was part of the normal operations of British trade, and a pirate has been allowed to interfere with it—for that is what the hon. Member for Norwood declared him to be. He was arguing that the Government should raise his status above that of a pirate by according him belligerent rights, but, until belligerent rights have been conceded, he is a pirate in the sense of international public law, in the same sense as Chinese pirates on the Chinese rivers are pirates. He has no more status than that. And Great Britain lies down and grovels. It has been referred to before, but I think it is worth repeating, that some years ago—many of us in this House will remember the occasion—there were a number of British engineers arrested in Russia by the ordinary processes of Russian law, and they were being tried according to the ordinary processes of Russian law, and the British Government of that day said to the Russian State of that day, "This has got to stop." There was a risk of war; there were all sorts of risks involved in making that demand. There was a complete breach of every principle of so-called international law. The British Government of that day said, "We do not care one brass farthing about your being the Government, or about your legal processes, or anything else. These are British subjects on their lawful occasions and you are not going to be allowed to treat them in that way."
I am not accusing the Government of being afraid of Franco. I do not believe they are afraid of Franco. I believe they are perfectly confident that they could deal with Franco on his own. But I accuse

1107
them of being afraid of Hitler and Mussolini, who, they know, are behind Franco. The right hon. Gentleman all through has shown a fear of these people which, I think, is degrading to the whole of the British population. I am not a militarist. I am not a fighting man. I was in favour, as hon. Members know, of non-intervention on the Abyssinian issue, but I was not in favour of non-intervention in Abyssinia meaning crawling on our stomachs before Mussolini. It does not mean to say that because I was in favour of non-intervention in Abyssinia I think the right hon. Gentleman is entitled to have missionaries bundled out of there as though they were rogues and vagabonds without an effective protest. The right hon. Gentleman has shown fear in the face of Fascist States, giving them the very food on which they feed, the capacity to turn round and say to their people, "See what we have done for you. We have made you respected and feared in the eyes of the world." That is what is being done to-day in a more definite and open way than ever before.
The appropriate, the dignified and the right British course is to say, "Our trade is going on. It may be that food going into that harbour will help the Government people in Bilbao. It may mean that food going into that harbour will be commandeered by the rebels and used for the benefit of the insurgent troops. But that is nothing to do with us. Our trade is going on, and neither Franco nor anyone else is going to stop it from going on." I know that that course involves risks which this nation must be prepared to face. I think if ever a Vote of Censure were justified it is justified to-day in the circumstances that the country has had to face over the week-end. We had every newspaper in the country featuring a special hurriedly summoned meeting of the Cabinet to deal with the situation. Every newspaper in the country tells us that the "Hood" has left Gibraltar and is steaming full speed to the North Coast of Spain. [Interruption.] I leave my hon. Friend alone. I have listened to a number of his interruptions. I am not objecting. I know that his views on this matter have been very largely influenced by the religious beliefs that he holds very deeply and sincerely. I hope he recognises that it is for his co-religionists in Bilbao that I am appealing to-night.
1108
Never was there an occasion when a Vote of Censure was so justified when we have a Cabinet meeting on Sunday and the information that the "Hood" is steaming from Gibraltar to the North Coast of Spain. The hon. Member says, "Do not believe the newspapers." Is he suggesting that the Cabinet did not meet on Sunday? Is he suggesting that the "Hood" has not steamed, to the North Coast of Spain? Is he denying that the "Hood" is now operating in waters which have been declared too dangerous for British merchant ships? We have had no explanation here to-day that justifies any one of these things, only just the normal course of policy, which we have been pursuing from the beginning, of non-intervention. If it is dangerous for British shipping to knock about on the North Coast of Spain, it is surely very foolish procedure on the part of the Government to send one of the biggest and most expensive ships of the British Navy into these waters if it is just simply for the trivial reasons that have been put forward to-day and to meet a situation which has been adequately dealt with by the captain of the "Blanche" It will not do. There is a whole lot more that this House has not been told to-day by the Home Secretary. We are waiting to be told. We may get it from the Foreign Secretary at the conclusion of the Debate. [Interruption.] As the hon. Member says, the probabilities are that we shall not. The nation will be kept in the same ignorance that it has been all along, and indeed, in the ignorance which they themselves always profess they are in, because whenever they are pressed for definite information on any point of importance they have no information. In those circumstances, having regard to the humiliation that has been imposed upon the people of the country, having regard to the interference with the ordinary routine of British trade which is being agreed to and accepted by the Government, a Vote of Censure is justified in being put on the Paper, and I feel myself 100 per cent. justified in voting for it.
8.53 p.m.
Mr. Emrys-Evans: The hon. Member has spoken of risks. He is one of those who have voted on every occasion against the increase of armaments.
Mr. Maxton: And I shall continue to do so until I have some assurance that

1109
they will be used for the purposes that I am interested in.
Mr. Emrys-Evans: I am glad the hon. Member has made that point, because he will continue to keep the country as weak as possible and would place upon us further humiliations that we may suffer in the future. But that position is being remedied by the Government, and we shall be able to face those risks more boldly in the future when we have more armaments behind us.
Mr. Maxton: Is that the view of the Foreign Secretary, that you are lying down because you have not the force to meet the threat?
Mr. Emrys-Evans: Hon. Members opposite are always taunting us with regard to not taking risks without weighing up what those risks involve. They have done their best in the last few years to involve us in great difficulties abroad. In his speech the Leader of the Opposition said that we have shown weakness over Abyssinia and weakness subsequently. I do not, however, want to enter into the general question. I prefer to come back to the Vote of Censure. When we consider the Spanish problem and compare it with some of the other international problems which have arisen in the recent past, we should bear in mind that we are under no obligation to intervene. The speeches of hon. and right hon. Members opposite give the impression that we have that obligation. It is an internal conflict between two large and almost equally balanced portions of the population. A state of war exists, although belligerent rights have not been acknowledged. The Franco Government controls a large part of Spain. There is a de facto war taking place, whatever the de jure position may be.
The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) compared General Franco to the Chinese pirates. How can there be any kind of comparison between the pirates in Bias Bay and the Government of General Franco, which raises revenue, has a large army and controls a great part of Spain? I agree with the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. H. Nicolson) that it is perhaps a pity that the Government did not grant belligerent rights. If they had done so we should not have had the trouble that has arisen at Bilbao. Do the Opposition really suggest that at the present moment it would
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be in the interests of general peace or that it would improve the present position in Europe if the British Government gave instructions that the mines should be swept up outside Bilbao and that the food ships should be allowed to go into the harbour under the guns of the British Fleet? If that happened it would be intervention. I fully recognise the unhappy position of the people in Bilbao at the present time in that they are short of food. Other besieged cities have been in the same situation. It is part of the position which arises from a war, whether it is a civil war or an international war. If the position were reversed, and the Italian fleet escorted food ships, in spite of a Spanish Government blockade, there would be many protests from hon. and right hon. Members opposite. There is great danger in interfering and taking sides in the Spanish trouble. I hold the view that there should be complete neutrality. I share the view of the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) and I believe that to be the right course for this country. Whenever foreign countries have intervened in the past in Spain, such as in the time of Napoleon, they have suffered in the end. The "Spanish ulcer" was the beginning of the end of the Napoleonic regime, and I trust that if and when dictators interfere in Spain in future they will come to the same end.
Mr. W. Roberts: Would you send Wellington?
Mr. Emrys-Evans: No, I would not send Wellington, I would not intervene. I cannot help feeling that at the present time the partisanship which is shown on the part of the Opposition is having a very unhappy effect on our relations throughout Europe. They accuse His Majesty's Government of being a pro-Franco Government, but they have not produced a shred of evidence to support that charge. The partisanship which is being shown is playing the game of the dictators, who are anxious to divide Europe into two camps. It seems to me that if we favoured a partisan policy in regard to Spain we should forget our own interests and help to bring about the division of Europe into two camps. One hon. Member said that the Government were prepared to support Fascism against democracy. I think he forgot that the struggle in Europe is not between Fascism

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and democracy but between Fascism and Communism, and we have no sympathy with either. The obligations of our Government are, in the first place, to our own people. The hon. Member for Bridgeton spoke of the poor people of Spain. He should also think of the poor people of England. It is in the interests of this country that we should make nonintervention effective and remove one of the possible causes of friction. I admit that there are great difficulties. I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for West Leicester said, that it is almost impossible to make non-intervention watertight. But we are improving it; the position is better than it was two or three months ago. I do not think that hon. Members opposite will be able to stir up feeling in this country, because the average man here is not looking for a Fascist or a Communist in every ditch.
I would make an appeal to all hon. Members, and that is to keep Spain in its right proportion in relation to the whole picture of foreign affairs. It is a disturbing, at times a dangerous, and always an important problem, but I would urge hon. Members to consider that it is only part of a very much bigger problem, and it sinks into a relatively minor place when it is related to the major problem of Germany and Central Europe. Spain should not be allowed to distract us too much and turn our attention away from these more difficult and more dangerous problems. There is the restless spirit of Nazism in Europe. The danger of a sudden attack on Czechoslovakia will be increased if we show signs of becoming involved in Spain, and it will diminish if we follow the wise and sane policy of non-intervention. The Government will succeed if they follow the policy of non-intervention and are not deterred by any of the attacks which have been made upon them to-day. These issues, having regard to their relation to the bigger questions, are minor issues, and if we follow the policy of non-intervention effectively, and if we succeed in keeping the countries of Europe from intervening too deeply in the Spanish problem, then we shall disappoint the hopes of those who think that if we become involved we shall be too weak to play an effective part in other parts of the world.
9.5 p.m.
Colonel Wedgwood: The hon. Member for South Derby (Mr. Emrys-Evans) twitted us on this side with not being able to face the risks or to see them. It is because we see the risks perhaps more clearly than he does that we are moving this Vote of Censure to-day. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) said rightly that we were feeding the dictators with what they lived upon Every time England gives way and shows fear we invite a further kick in the pants, and we bring nearer the day of reckoning. The main support of peace to-day is fear of Great Britain, not contempt of Great Britain, and it is because we feel that the measures that were taken at the Cabinet meeting on Friday last were just one more surrender, just one more evidence of weakness, just one more sop to the dictators, that we are moving this Vote of Censure and praying that even now the Government will change their policy and show their teeth. We do not want war; we want to take the only steps possible to prevent war coming.
One suggestion has come forth from this Debate to-night, from the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). It was a dream—it was the best part of his speech—which the whole House would sympathise with and wish to see materialise, but how does he expect intervention by five great Powers to take place, and that intervention to convey to both parties in Spain a sense of justice and irresistible force. So long as England is feeble and despised, so long as every step taken by Germany, by Italy, or by General Franco, however hostile to the interests of this country, however much breaking down our determination to be impartial—how does he expect those five Powers even to work together so long as we show the white feather and explain repeatedly that we will always yield?
The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary made a speech this afternoon which, if he will forgive me for saying so, was not the best defence for the Government that could have been made. His speech was devoted almost entirely to a most elaborate plea that the Government have been completely impartial in Spain. He showed how, at the beginning of the war, in August last, with Government ships blockading insurgent ports, we warned shipping not to go to

1113
those ports and told them of the risks, and that just as we recognised in that case the blockade of the Southern Spanish ports when they were in the hands of the insurgents, so now we are doing exactly the same thing in the North of Spain. It is possible that the Home Secretary was not fully informed or had forgotten the history of last August and September, had forgotten what our Fleet did in those days, but most Members of the House must remember perfectly well how that ship, the "Gibel Zerjon," a ship that one often sees in Gibraltar, sailed from Gibraltar to Melilla. Melilla was blockaded at that time by the Government ships, and there was a destroyer and a submarine in the Straits, and they tried to stop the British ship going from Gibraltar to Melilla. Immediately that ship wirelessed for the support of the British Fleet, and the "Repulse" dashed out, cleared for action, told the Spanish ships what it thought about it, and conveyed the British ship into Melilla.
That was at the end of August. But the same thing happened again and again. That ship crossed over, backwards and forwards, escorted in the face of the Spanish destroyers and submarines, carrying, as a matter of fact, petrol and cement—cement, by the way, which has been used for building and fortifying the aerodromes which the Germans are using in Ceuta. That must be perfectly well known to the right hon. Gentleman, and one can hardly conceive his basing his case on an exact similarity of treatment when it is not true. Similarity is precisely what we ask for, what the British Fleet should do in the north of Spain. The right hon. Gentleman may have had his brief prepared for him, and that event of August may have slipped his memory, but if he did know that, I think it is the worst case of disingenuous pleading that I have ever heard in this House; it knocks the whole bottom out of his case. What we ask for is impartiality, that you should treat the port of Bilbao just as you treated the ports of Melilla and Ceuta, that you should enable British ships upon the high seas to receive protection, whether they are going to the aid of the Government or the rebels. We do not ask that you should take any steps whatever within the three-mile limit. I could trust the guns of Bilbao to keep the Spanish rebel ships outside the three-
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mile limit, but, so far as the high seas are concerned, every British ship should be protected in the north just as it was in the south; and the worst of this whole incident is that whereas in the south the Fleet acted automatically on one side, in the north it acted automatically, too, but on the other side, and ordered the British ships not to sail to Bilbao.
The action of the Fleet, or rather of the Admiralty, is what is being censured to-day, the action of the Admiralty in not acting in the north as they acted in the south, in not protecting our ships when the danger is from the insurgents' guns just as they protected them from the guns of the Spanish Government ships. In the case of Bilbao there are said to be mines outside the harbour. Those mines may be in territorial waters or in the high seas, but we have information from the Basque Government that there are no mines and that ships are going in and out. On the other hand, we have information, again from a source which is regarded as first rate but which is prejudiced, the Navy, that these mines make it impossible for ships to go in and out of port. Is the Government being run by the Admiralty, instead of the Government running the Admiralty? The Navy are our servants and should not impose their prejudices on the British Government. If the Government really means to be impartial then let the Fleet be impartial as well as the Government Front Bench.
No doubt the situation is extremely difficult. You have risks which British ships will run, but do not exaggerate these risks. Our battleships are built so that they will not be sunk by a mine explosion. We have been told that over and over again, and anyone who has studied naval architecture knows that that is so. The risk of real trouble from either side can be dismissed at once. Did the Fleet really believe, when they sent the "Repulse" full steam out of Gibraltar in order to rescue a tramp steamer, that the Spanish ships would open fire and do them any serious injury? Did they really believe that they would be injured if they escorted our merchant ships on their lawful occasions and then, within the three-mile limit, allowed them to go on at their own risk?
There are two things I want to make quite clear. During the speech of the

1115
Home Secretary there was no evidence that the Government's position was that they would prevent British ships from breaking the blockade. In the course of his speech, and by interruptions, the right hon. Gentleman admitted that there should be no forbidding of British ships to try to break the blockade, if they wished. Further pressed by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) the right hon. Gentleman agreed that on the high seas British ships were entitled to demand help, and would get help. The Debate will not have been in vain if that assurance is repeated, coupled with that further message from the Board of Trade, which ought to have been sent but which has not been sent, to British ships at St. Jean de Luz and Bordeaux that if they choose to sail they will have protection on the high seas, but that there are dangers inside territorial waters which they must face. In that case the Government would be able to say that, at any rate, as far as the Fleet is concerned, and as far as external commerce is concerned, they have been really impartial. Impartiality is what we want. Hon. Members opposite are not in favour of the Spanish Government. If I were 20 years younger I should not be here, but fighting for the Spanish Government. The least we can do is to hold the balance fairly, get these Italians and Germans out of the country and look forward to a settlement when we shall not have a Spain either Communist or reactionary, when we shall not see a Spain shorn of its provinces and colonies, handed over to Italy and Germany, but a free country once more with Parliamentary rule governing themselves.
9.20 p.m.
Mr. Crossley: The right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has said that if he were 20 years younger he would be out fighting in Spain.
Colonel Wedgwood: Probably shooting at you.
Mr. Crossley: It may be that I might possibly be found on the other side, but, all the same, even at his present age, if he went to Spain, he would acquit himself on whichever side he fought with the utmost credit. The right hon. and gallant Member and almost every other
1116
spokesman on that side of the House when they say that they believe in non-intervention are, in fact, pleading for a kind of veiled intervention. My sympathies are well known. Frankly, I sympathise with those who, I believe, are standing up for the rights of their religion and the freedom of property, but at the same time I do honestly believe in the most rigid nonintervention. I believe that 99 people out of every 100 in this country, whatever may be their sympathies in this unfortunate dispute, quite definitely do not wish to see a British ship or a British life lost in the dispute. If I am right in that, then I am right in supporting the Government in what I hope will be a most rigid policy of non-intervention. Let me put to the right hon. and gallant Member a hypothetical case. Suppose the Government controlled the open seas and Cadiz harbour were blockaded. Wines and fruit and oil are vital matters to General Franco, as in return for these exports he gets coal and capital.
Colonel Wedgwood: Who exports them?
Mr. Crossley: General Franco.
Colonel Wedgwood: Who has stolen them from the owners?
Mr. Crossley: It is the part of Spain which he now administers. He gets in return for these exports coal and capital, both extremely important, just as foodstuffs are important to the Government side. Suppose His Majesty's Government were to say, as I trust they have said in the present dispute, "You interfere with our ships on the high seas at your peril. On the high seas we protect our ships and shall sink any ship which attacks them." But suppose, in addition, we said, "We are going to escort our ships into territorial waters right up to the quay side and escort them out again." If we did that in the case of Cadiz there would be the most tremendous outcry on the part of the Opposition, and that outcry would be quite justified. They would say that we were risking British ships because there are mines about, and that the shore batteries are not very effective. They would also say that we were risking British ships in the most unjustifiable of all causes, in the cause of rendering very valuable indirect assistance to one party to the dispute.

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Let me examine very briefly the actual trade we have with the two sides, because it is a very important consideration. From the insurgents we take wine, olive oil, oranges, fruit and mineral raw materials in large quantities, and in return we export coal and capital, both extremely important to them, the capital of which is directly employed in buying arms. There is no shortage of foodstuffs on that side. From the Government side we import olive oil and raw silk. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer goes fishing in Scotland all the gut parts he requires come from the Government side in Spain. We supply in return coal and food, and the food is not directly supplied because we are not an exporting country. What happens is that these ships employed in the food trade are chartered ships. That is, to all intents and purposes they are for the time being owned by the Spanish Government. They are hired for a period of months, it may be, by the Spanish Government; their seamen are paid special rates; the rates of hire are exceedingly high. The only connection for the time being that they have with this country is that they fly this country's flag, and it is a most undesirable position.
I cannot help wishing that when the Merchant Shipping (Spain) Act was passed, it had in fact forbidden all British ships to proceed to Spain except under licence as carrying cargoes between this country and one or other side in Spain, because I believe that that would have carried out the intention of strict neutrality far better than the present Act. This chartering of ships is an important consideration, because while we are certainly at present providing Franco with valuable capital we are equally supplying to the other side many of its vital necessities. I am not sure that that is real non-intervention. I have an idea that the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker), who is about to sum up, is going to shatter my arguments in one sentence, and I am going to try to get in one shot. I have an idea that he is going to say that these arguments are all right if the two parties are equal, but that in fact the two parties are not. One is the legitimate Government of Spain and as such is entitled to rights which ought not to be accorded to the other party. I take it that that is the basis of his argu-
1118
ment. It always has been in the past. He may direct it to a narrower issue to-night.
Mr. Noel-Baker: We have always said that the Government of the rebels are not on an equal footing, but in practice we accepted non-intervention—the non-supply of arms—provided it was made equally effective to both sides.
Mr. Crossley: But, in fact, the hon. Gentleman does desire intervention in all sorts of veiled forms. Quite clearly in the North of Spain blockade is a legitimate instrument. Blockade in modern warfare cannot be ruled out. It may be undesirable, but it is a fundamental portion of the strategy of the two commanders, and if the Government were in control of the seas there is not the slightest doubt that the Government would be exercising with the full approval of hon. Members a blockade to the best of their ability.
Mr. W. Roberts Mr. W. Roberts rose—
Mr. Crossley: I have a very few minutes and I do not want to give way if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. I came across a very interesting document the other day and I would like to quote a few facts to the House to show that this is a civil war on a major scale, on a level with the Thirty Years' War or the war between our King and Parliament in 1640, a major civil war in which we cannot possibly say that one side is the legitimate government and that the other side consists of a lot of insubordinate rebels. I do not wish to develop the subject at length, because it has been dealt with before, notably by the hon. Member for one of the Surrey divisions; but it is strictly relevant to this argument in that most of the arguments of the Opposition speakers do uphold the special rights of the Government in the territorial waters as around the whole of Spain, even though the greater part of Spain is not at present under the control of the Government. During the short period that the Government ruled, about this time last year, a period of some six months, there were 84 churches burned, 36 political centres burned, four newspaper offices destroyed and 95 private houses burned down. Two hundred and fifty-six people were directly murdered.
Mr. Cove: What has this got to do, with Bilbao?
Mr. Crossley: If the hon. Member will be patient—
Mr. Cove: We have been very patient with the hon. Member.
Mr. Crossley: I have been patient with most hon. Members to-day. Indeed I cannot help thinking that the early stages of the Debate to-day must have been very much like the Debate in the Spanish Cortes, the figures of which I am now quoting from the speech of Calvo Sotelo, who was taken out of his house by uniformed police and murdered.
Mr. Cove: Absolutely irrelevant.
Mr. Crossley: The hon. Member may say that it is irrelevant, but it is not irrelevant as to whether or not the Government has privileges or rights over and above the insurgents. It is relevant as to whether or not these two parties in the dispute should be treated equally. I do not intend to develop the point, but I intend to submit to the House that in fact this was armed resistance to what was a most illegal repression.
I cannot help feeling that the Government deserve commendation for their thoroughly common-sense attitude. I wish very much that at the beginning of this dispute they had granted belligerent rights to both parties, because I believe that would have avoided a great deal of danger and inconvenience. I agree that now, without a suitable occasion, it would be very difficult to grant belligerent rights to the two parties. Let hon. Members recognise what this dispute is: it is a major civil war, each side of which has the active sympathy—often the too active sympathy—of a large section of Europe. Almost every country, except this country, has been intervening in one way or another in this dispute since it began. It is very undesirable that they should do so.
There is little hope of mediation—the day-dream to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping pointed—unless non-intervention can first be made effective. It cannot be made effective unless this country shows definitely that not only is it prepared not to interfere in the internal affairs of Spain, but is determined to prevent anybody having any suspicion that it is likely so to interfere. I feel that the British shipping at present at St. Jean de Lux only fulfilled its duty towards its own safety and the
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spirit of the Non-Intervention Agreement, that we should entirely avoid any suspicion of intervention, by taking the attitude it took. In moving the Motion of Censure the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made an extraordinarily effective speech, but it was the most partisan and the least non-interventionist speech—[An HON. MEMBER: "What is yours?"] I am one of the strongest believers in the whole House in the most rigid non-intervention. All my sympathies are with one side, but I strongly believe in the most rigid non-intervention. I hope the House will not accuse me of having made a biased speech. I believe the Government deserve the utmost commendation for having, during the period of eight months, kept this country out of the danger of war, and, as I believe, kept Europe out of the danger of war. To-day the position appears infinitely safer than it appeared eight months ago.
9.40 p.m.
Mr. Noel-Baker: The Home Secretary, in stating the case for the Government, said that he had suffered a good deal of interruption—which was true—and that he hoped he had eluded a good deal of interruption that was intended for him. He did, but he eluded a good deal more besides interruption: he eluded the major issues that are involved in this Debate to-day. I believe this is the first time since 1588 that British ships have been menaced by the Spanish fleet. As I listened to the Home Secretary explaining away our naval rights, I thought that the ghosts of Queen Elizabeth and Francis Drake must be stirring uneasily in our midst, as indeed must have been the spirit of Admiral Jellicoe.
I do not wish to deal with the wider issues of the situation in Spain more than I can help, but I would like to say one word about the proposal put forward at the end of his speech by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). I think there is no one on this side of the House who does not desire that the fighting in Spain should be brought to an end at the earliest possible moment. We regret, perhaps, that talk of mediation should be more active when General Franco is suffering reverses than it was when he was at the gates of Madrid in October last. We, perhaps, wish that the right hon. Gentleman had studied with more care the declaration of

1121
M. Litvinov at Geneva, that the Soviet Government did not desire to intervene in Spain, and the declaration made by the Government of Spain to the effect that they had no intention of setting up any dictatorial regime, but intended to adhere to the constitutional parliamentary government under which the country was being governed when General Franco started his revolt. Half of the conditions desired by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping have already been fulfilled, and if he can get Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to make declarations similar to those that have been made by the Russian Government and by the Spanish Government, then at least the first stage of his negotiation will be fulfilled.
The present crisis concerns the war in the country of the Basques. It is a special part of the conflict which presents various special features different from the rest of the war. I do not think that even the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley) would say that those who are fighting against Franco there are, in the picturesque language of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping, ferocious or atheistic sects. They are Catholics to a man. Every ecclesiastical authority in their country is behind the government.
Mr. Crossley: The Carlists are fighting on the other side.
Mr. Noel-Baker: The Carlists may be, but in the forces which the Basques are sending into action there is in every battalion a Catholic priest. We have the evidence of a British Catholic, a member of the London County Council, known to many of us on this side of the House, who saw the destruction at Durango, the bombing of the church where a priest and 200 of his congregation were killed. I do not desire to go into that now, but that matter of prejudice can be excluded from our Debate. Like the rest of the war, the struggle in the Basque country is a struggle of the Spanish people against foreign invasion. There are Germans on that front; the artillery and the aircraft are German. If hon. Members desire to have evidence of the presence of Germans there, I have photographs of German troops taken from a German prisoner a few days ago. There are great numbers of Moors fighting on that front. There are no Russians—[HON. MEMBERS:
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"Oh!"]—except perhaps some aviators, and there are now certainly a great number of Spanish aviators fighting for the Government on every front. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) interjected, we have a special friendship with the Basques. As he said, the Basques did a great deal for us during the last War. The Leader of the Liberal party told the House that certain Basque ships were sunk while providing Great Britain with the minerals without which our armaments could not have been made. [An HON. MEMBER: "Thirty ships."] Yes, 30 ships and 800 Basque sailors lost their lives as well. One firm of Basque shipowners handed over their entire fleet to the British Government to be used for our work, and so greatly did we value those services that we knighted the head of that firm and made him Sir Ramon De la Soto.
In this area we have also a special British interest at this moment because what the ships are bringing out of Bilbao is iron ore which is coming here. In the area under the control of the Basques the iron mines are more active than they were when the civil war began, and of the cargoes that have come out since the war began, every one has been brought to the United Kingdom except three which have gone to Holland. It is true, as the Foreign Secretary told us in answer to a question to-day, that some cargoes from General Franco's side are coming or have come to us, but it is also true, and I do not believe, the Foreign Secretary will dispute it, that the vast majority of the mineral ores exported from General Franco's country have gone to Italy and Germany. What greater interest could Great Britain have at this moment than that we should be sending food in our ships, it may be Dominions food, to women and children and refugees who will starve if that food does not reach them, and that those ships should be bringing out minerals required for the armaments programme to which the Government attaches so much importance?
Mr. Henderson Stewart: Suppose the beleaguered people were no t the Government but Franco's supporters and suppose it was not Franco's forces but the Government forces which were blockading this port, would the hon. Gentleman be prepared to take the same steps as those which he is now advocating?
Mr. Noel-Baker: Of course, as long as belligerent rights are not recognised on either side, we are in favour of allowing the free transport of food. We do not think that blockades should be recognised while belligerent rights are not recognised. I will deal later with the whole point of the blockade.
There is another major British interest involved in the present situation to which the Government and the speakers on the other side have, so far, not given the slightest attention. Indeed, it has hardly been mentioned. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping said that he did not speak as a lawyer and he thought we had had enough of that part of the subject.
Mr. Churchill: I did not say that we had had enough of it.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I apologise if I misinterpreted the right hon. Gentleman, but in any case the point which I desire to make is that vital interests of Great Britain are involved in the questions of naval law which are now at stake. The Government are, I will not say expecting, but fearing another major war. They are spending hundreds of millions on the British Fleet, and the British Fleet has always attached vital importance to the rules of international law under which it is allowed to operate. While this Spanish war lasts, we are creating, in this direction as in others, precedents for the future, and I venture to say that this is one of the most important matters which we have to consider.
Before I come to the questions of international law involved, may I be allowed to state once more, as we have done many times from these benches, our attitude towards non-intervention. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary asked specially that we should do so. We have always said that the Spanish Government is the legitimate, constitutional, elected Government of the country. As such, under the rules of international law, if civil war breaks out it has the right to buy arms from other countries and to demand that other countries shall not supply arms to the rebels. As a member of the League under the Covenant, if it is the subject of international aggression, it has the right to whatever measure of assistance Article XVI involves, and the Government admit that that, at least, implies economic sanctions. Civil war
1124
has broken out and international aggression has, by common consent, occurred. We agreed, at the beginning, that these legal rights of the Spanish Government should be waived in the major interest of saving European peace, but on one condition, namely, that arms should be supplied to neither side. We said that if one side was receiving arms and the other side was not, that was not non-intervention but was intervention of the most dangerous kind.
We adhere to that view. If non-intervention is made effective, if the Foreign Secretary can give us a control which will stop the flow of arms and of troops, we will support it, and we are confident the war will soon be over in that case. But as long as it is not effective, as long as it operates immensely in favour of the rebels and against the Government, as we are convinced it has done, then we say that the Government ought to redress the balance by suspending its operation until such time as the other side agrees to make it effective. Our purpose is not to provide a ready-made victory for either side. It is to ensure that the Spanish people shall be left alone to settle their own war, and if that were done we believe that they would settle it very quickly. But when the right hon. Gentleman asked us to state our attitude towards non-intervention, he implied that it had some connection with the sending of food to Bilbao. Non-intervention, however, is founded entirely in two international agreements, the first made at the end of last year, which related to the despatch and transport of arms and munitions, and the second made this year, which relates to volunteers and other kinds of troops. Non-intervention is limited to those two agreements and it has nothing to do with the despatch of food. The rights of British ships not carrying arms are governed by the rules of international law, which remain intact, except so far as those two agreements have made exceptions.
What are the rules of international law? The Government say that they recognise no belligerent rights to General Franco. [HON. MEMBERS: "Or the Government."] They say they recognise no belligerent rights on either side. Therefore, the question of this blockade of Bilbao must be considered first as a blockade by insurgents, having regard to

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the rules of international law in that respect, and thereafter in relation to the means which are being used, namely, blockade by air, by mines and by ships at sea. It is the Prime Minister's statement on Monday to which I am now referring.
On the general question of blockade by insurgents the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) said that, of course, there was a blockade, of course it was effective, and that, of course, we must recognise it, and that to send ships through that blockade would be intervention. The Prime Minister said on Monday, "I do not think it amounts to a blockade." Have we ever recognised the right of an insurgent Government to make a blockade? I do not believe that the Foreign Secretary could find a case, certainly not a case where an insurgent Government had received that right so soon after the civil war had broken out and when it was so tar from establishing its authority.
Mr. Churchill: There are a number of cases recorded in the "Daily Herald" this morning.
Mr. Noel-Baker: With great respect, I believe that every one of those cases is open to doubt. This is a highly technical matter, to which I have given a good deal of attention, and I do not believe that the writer in the "Herald" had done so. May I quote the general principles laid down by the Law Officers of the Government in 1867? They said, in answer to a question to the Government:
"We are of opinion that if this 'Provisional Government' is to be treated as a belligerent de facto, they have a right, according to the general principles of international law, to resort to this means of self-defence and of aggression against their enemy, but if they are not entitled to the status of belligerents, and these privateers sail upon the high seas under no flag of any de jure or de facto Government, they would be liable to be treated as pirate vessels, and especially to be treated as such, if they should attempt to interfere in any way with the vessels of any foreign State."
The Leader of the Opposition this afternoon quoted a case where a British ship was sent into a Peruvian port to insist that the insurgents should not interfere with the rights of British shipping. In 1897 the German, British, French, Portuguese, American and Italian Governments
1126
instructed their naval forces to communicate to Brazilian insurgents an order which they had received that no commercial operations in Rio de Janeiro should be permitted to be interrupted by those insurgents, and that if any interference by the insurgent forces occurred, those ships would be instructed to fire. That was a remarkably similar case to the situation which exists in Bilbao today. Unfortunately, we have surrendered a good deal of rights on this matter already by the statement which the Prime Minister made on Monday when, in fact, he in practice recognised General Franco's blockade. He said,
"It has been necessary to take into account the practical aspect of the problem arising out of the efforts of the insurgent forces to invest Bilbao by sea and land,"
and that therefore we had to stop our ships going. That has been interpreted—I have the reports in the "Times" here—both in Berlin and in Rome as de facto recognition of belligerent rights to General Franco. We have gone very far towards accepting something which this country has never accepted before, namely, the right of unrecognised insurgents to establish a blockade of this kind. How is this blockade being established? There are alleged to be, according to the Prime Minister's statement on Monday, three means that are being used—aircraft, mines and ships at sea.
The Prime Minister said that ships there would be in serious and constant risk of air bombardment. I do not believe there has been a case since the war began when the port of Bilbao has been bombarded. The Ports of Malaga, Barcelona and other places have been bombarded, and British ships have been allowed to go there. We protested against the bombardments and the infringement of their rights, and we went so far as to demand the establishment of safety zones in those ports. This air-bombardment argument does not hold water for a moment.
Equally dangerous is the argument with regard to mines. It is admitted that there have been mines at Bilbao. There were 42 laid by Franco last September, and 100 laid last December. British ships were allowed to go in, and it so happens that the shipping returns for those two months were higher than for any months since the war began. British ships went through the minefields because they were not very extensive and because

1127
the Basque Government cleared them up at once. Photographs have been printed of the mines which the Basque Government have taken up and which they did not relay. The Home Secretary this afternoon was singularly unconvincing on the question of mines. He offered us no report, no dates, no specific facts. A British sea captain this morning declares in the "Daily Telegraph" that he does not believe there are any mines and that he is perfectly ready to sail from St. Jean de Luz to Bilbao. The Basque Government say this morning that there are no mines and that they have a fleet of mine-sweepers continually sweeping. [Interruption.] Here are the exact words:
"The Basque Government has a flotilla of mine-sweepers on continuous duty, ensuring that any mine that the insurgents might lay would certainly be removed."
If the Foreign Secretary will look at the marine chart of Bilbao, he will see that it is perfectly certain that under the protection of coastal batteries the authorities of the port can keep the territorial waters clear of mines without any difficulty. In the attitude which the Government have adopted, they are again, as we think, compromising a most important British naval right. The question of mine-laying was dealt with at the second Hague Conference, and a convention was made allowing it under very narrow restrictions. Article II says:
"It is forbidden to lay automatic contact mines off the coasts and ports of the enemy with the sole object of intercepting commercial navigation."
The British Government accepted that with a reserve, because it did not go far enough in safeguarding the rights of neutrals, because it gave too wide a right to lay mines, and they said that established international law went beyond that convention in restricting the rights of belligerents to lay mines. General Franco is laying mines in the territorial waters, in the open seas, and we do not even make a protest. We are allowing him to create a precedent of indis-criminate mine-laying. We are forbidding our ships to go there on that account, and we are not even explaining to him and the world at large that his actions are contrary to the rules of naval law for which we have always stood.
Lastly, there is the question of blockade by ships. The most effective part
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of the case made by the Home Secretary was the analogy which he drew between the orders given now and those given last August to British ships. He said we were giving in substance exactly the same orders as then. I suggest there is no analogy at all. In the first place, British ships were then carrying arms or were entitled to do so. There was no question—the right hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong—of a general blockade. I remember no announcement of a blockade of any kind. The Spanish Government's ships only wanted the right to search for arms. As to the orders actually given, we then advised British ships not to go to certain Spanish ports and told them that if they did they went at their own risk. We now definitely desire them not to go, and the Prime Minister says that, if any master or owner takes the responsibility of sending or taking a British ship into Bilbao, it will be a very grave responsibility because that master or owner will be risking the lives of his men. On the last occasion it was advice, but to-day in the "Daily Telegraph" is a statement by another British captain who says:
"We were not merely advised not to go to Bilbao; we were instructed not to go by the Board of Trade, acting through the Admiralty."
Moreover, last summer we did not in practice tolerate any interference by Spanish Government ships, and when a British ship was stopped by a Spanish Government man-of-war we sent His Majesty's ship "Repulse," steaming at full speed, to prevent the Spanish Government ship from taking action. It is my profound conviction that after that step was taken there was not one other ship stopped on the high seas by a Spanish Government ship and I ask the Foreign Secretary to tell us if any single case occurred. I submit there is no analogy at all between the steps taken by His Majesty's Government now and those taken last year. The situation was different, the orders were different, and the action, in fact, then taken by the Government prevented interference with British ships. We did not then admit but, on the contrary, we effectively prevented the kind of blockade which General Franco now desires to carry out.
There is a further point. Even if General Franco had the right to declare

1129
a blockade; even if we recognised that right, is his present blockade an effective blockade in international law? The Leader of the Opposition cited 32 ships which have gone into Bilbao since 1st April. Ships are going into that port now. Is that an effective blockade? I was informed yesterday that five Spanish Government naval units had just reached Bilbao. As the hon. Member for Kingswinford (Mr. Henderson) pointed out this blockade, carried out by a few old ships, would never be effective unless His Majesty's Government made it so.
I want to ask the Foreign Secretary three questions: (1) Do the Government intend or not to protect British ships on the high seas? Will they prevent General Franco from interfering with them in any way up to the limit of the territorial waters? (2) Will the Government protest against the laying of mines by General Franco on the high seas and will they ensure that such mines are swept away? [AN HON. MEMBER: "On the high seas."] Yes, we have to keep His Majesty's ship "Hood" and a considerable number of naval units there. Surely in our own interests we ought to prevent the high seas being sown with mines. (3) Will the Government make it known to General Franco that we will not tolerate his ships firing on British ships, when they are in territorial waters, from outside that limit? Can the Foreign Secretary give us an assurance that General Franco's ships will not be allowed to fire on our ships when inside territorial waters, and that indiscriminate mine-laying on the high seas will not be allowed?
If he can, then this problem will be solved. But if he does not give that assurance, then he is sacrificing very important naval rights. Supposing we do have another major war and supposing our enemy endeavours to establish a blockade of Great Britain by aerial bombardment of our ports, are we going to agree to that? In this case there has not been a single case of ships being actually bombed but a mere declaration by General Franco that they may be bombed. Are we going to agree to the indiscriminate laying of mines? We are particularly sorry that it should be at this moment that the British Government are taking a new step in policy, that they are allowing threats of menace by air, mine and ship, which did not move them
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earlier, to induce them now to prevent British food ships going to Spanish ports. For it comes exactly at moment when the sending of food into Bilbao is a matter of military importance.
Another of those British captains quoted in the "Daily Telegraph" said:
"I do not think the Basques will surrender unless they are starved."
We are sorry that this change should have happened now. The Spanish policy of the Government has not been notable for its luminous clarity, but to-day, against the background of its murky obscurity, the Government have flashed out a Franco sign. We know that it is a defeat for the Foreign Secretary. We all agree with what he wants to do. It is with his methods that we do not agree. He spoke the other night of pursuing his purposes patiently and persistently. We are afraid that his policy is all patience and very little persistence. His whole theory in dealing with dictators is that if he treats them gently they may stop intervening. When are the Government going to learn from their own experience?
The Foreign Secretary hopes that if we do not give him an excuse by insisting that our ships shall go in to Bilbao then Signor Mussolini will be good enough not to send any more divisions into Spain. But surely he has had lessons in what happens when he treats Signor Mussolini in that way. There was the original embargo on arms which we put on as a gesture to give him no excuse for not coming in. He came in when he thought he had done the job. The embargo on volunteers—exactly the same story. Yet the Foreign Secretary still tells us, in order not to offend Signor Mussolini, that so far as he knows there are no regular Italian troops in Spain, although we have had the interview of the "Times" correspondent with Major Luciano, who told him that his regular division of the Italian army, the Littorio division, had been sent to Spain with Italian Government equipment and at Government orders. We venture to think that that is not the right way to deal with dictators.
Last Christmas the French and British Governments spoke firmly about Morocco to Herr Hitler, and immediately Herr Hitler gave up his plans. The other day this House, principally through a great

1131
speech by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), spoke firmly to Signor Mussolini. Up to the day of that Debate there had been a violent anti-British campaign in the Italian Press, and on the Saturday, two days later, Reuter's reported that the anti-British campaign had ceased, and a few days later that 200 Italians in Addis Ababa were to, be punished for what had occurred. The right way to end this dangerous situation is for our Government to stand on British rights. We are convinced that if the Government will do that to-day, if they will do justice to ourselves and to the Spanish people, they will earn gratitude from generations to come. But if they allow this blockade to be made effective then they will have made a mistake which future generations will bitterly regret.
10.18 p.m.
Mr. Eden: The hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker) has certain advantages which I have not. He is a student, I believe, of international law, though I am afraid I shall have to show the House that his studies have not been altogether correctly directed. The hon. Gentleman complained that the Government's foreign policy in respect of Spain lacked luminous clarity. Listening to the hon. Gentleman many of us must have felt that the indictment which he had to present lacked luminous clarity. He explained at great length, for instance, that there were no mines anywhere near Bilbao, and as there were no mines the Basque mine-sweepers were kept busy sweeping them up. He went on to say that we were exaggerating the dangers of mines upon the high seas, and then asked whether we had sent British minesweepers to sweep them up. I truly believe that much of this Debate is founded upon misapprehension. I regard my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary as a master of exposition, and I hope I may be allowed to say without undue criticism that I truly believe that if hon. Members opposite had not interrupted his speech so much the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken for the Opposition would not have had to repeat questions which had already been answered. This question is far more important than the Vote of Censure, and I shall do my best in the time available to try to make plain to all sections of the House what
1132
is the Government's policy, what are our responsibilities and how we propose to discharge them.
The hon. Gentleman said that the most effective part of the speech of the Home Secretary was that in which he spoke of the parallel between what is happening in Bilbao and what happened in the Morocco case in the autumn. I am dealing with this point only to clear up that difference, which will not affect my main argument. He said that this was not a true parallel because there was then no blockade, but the hon. Gentleman was mistaken. I have here a telegram which recorded a decision of the Spanish Government in August of last year, when the boot was on the other leg:
"The Ministry of State informs me that Spanish ports in the hands of the rebels, such as Melilla, Ceuta, the ports in the Spanish zone of Morocco, the Balearic and Canary Islands have been declared to be in the war zone and consequently it is not possible for Spanish warships to allow merchant ships"—
not armed ships—
"to enter those ports."
I do not in the least protest against that declaration, which is a perfectly proper form of blockade. But the parallel is much closer than the hon. Gentleman thinks between what happened last year and the present position in Bilbao. For instance, a decree was issued at the same time by the Spanish Government and one sentence of it ran:
"Zones of protectorate and influence entrusted to Spain in Morocco and on the Western Coast of Africa will be considered as war zones and, therefore, subject to blockade."
That was the situation which was then, rightly or wrongly, accepted.
I want to come to the main charge of this Vote of Censure. As I listened to the greater part of the Debate I felt that the main charge was not so much what we had done or had not done in this business, but that the Opposition felt that we were generally poor-spirited in our conduct in the Spanish war, that the British lion was decadent and that, in the last century, had we been faced with similar circumstances, the British Government would have adopted a very different line. All that sounds very splendid, and is no doubt extremely satisfying to an Opposition, but is it true? I want the House to consider too for a moment the position of this Spanish civil war. What

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did the British Government do in similar circumstances last century, when men were braver than we are to-day? The most important internal strife of the last century, was, of course, the American Civil War. In that war we granted belligerent rights to both sides. It will have been familiar to most of us from our childhood that the granting of those belligerent rights resulted, among other things, in the famous Alabama case.
The Leader of the Opposition spoke earlier to-day as though the Government had given something up in this case. Of course, we have not given anything up, because you can never grant belligerent rights to one side only; they must be granted to both sides it they are granted at all. The hon. Gentleman remarked that he thought that never in history had there been any question of granting belligerent rights early in a dispute. As a matter of fact, in the American Civil War we did grant belligerent rights within six weeks of the outbreak of the Civil War.
Mr. Noel-Baker: The Government themselves declared a blockade, which, as all international lawyers will agree, compels them to grant belligerent rights to both sides.
Mr. Eden: We ourselves made, in point of fact, a declaration of neutrality out of which arose the granting of belligerent rights to both sides. That is what we did in the American Civil War. Of course, that does not stand alone; it is not the only example. The hon. Gentleman is probably familiar, I think, as I know something of his associations in this respect, with the Greek rebellion against Turkey in 1821–25. At that time also, belligerent rights were granted, and His Majesty's Government voiced this opinion, to which I would draw the attention of the House:
"The character of belligerency was not so much a principle as a fact, that a certain degree of force and consistency acquired by any mass of population engaged in war entitled that population to be treated as a belligerent, and even if this title were questionable, rendered it the interest well understood of all civilised nations so to treat them."
At that time Canning was Foreign Secretary of this country, and Professor Phillips, in his "History of Modern Europe," deals with this very interest-
1134
ing chapter of Greek independence. He says—curiously enough—
"As in the affairs of Spain, so now his (Canning's) attitude was frankly based upon the interest of England. The interests of England, in his opinion, demanded peace. … The recognition of the belligerent character of the Greeks was necessitated by the impossibility of treating as pirates a population of a million souls, and of bringing within the bounds of civilised war a contest which had been marked at the outset, on both sides, by disgusting barbarities."
Those were both cases in which belligerent rights were granted. A third, and perhaps, in a way, even more remarkable case, was the revolt of the Spanish American Colonies against the Spanish Government, from which resulted the establishment of the South American independent Republics as we know them to-day. In that dispute we recognised the rights of the belligerent Colonies long before we recognised them in any other way, and, when I heard the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway speaking earlier this afternoon, I bethought me that he might well have remembered the enthusiasm shown by the Liberal party of that day for those new States across the Atlantic to whom we accorded belligerent rights, though they were rebels against their own mother country.
What I wish to deduce from these three examples is that the natural thing, when a struggle has reached the large dimensions of the present war in Spain, would have been to recognise its belligerent character, and for States whose maritime interests are involved, as ours are, to grant belligerent rights to both sides. That would have been the natural thing to do. Recognition of belligerency is, of course, quite distinct from recognising anyone to whom you give belligerent rights as being the legitimate Government of the country. It has nothing to do with it. It is a conception simply concerned with granting belligerent rights which are of convenience to the donor as much as they are to the recipients. I will not go into the reasons, but for a variety of reasons in the present dispute we are not granting belligerent rights. What I want the House to appreciate is that, if we had followed the precedents which I have given, above all the precedent of the American civil war, and granted belligerent rights to both sides, both sides would have had a perfect right to stop British ships engaged in attempting to break the blockade, and would have been

1135
entitled to do it even on the high seas, and the British ships concerned could not have expected and would not in those circumstances have been entitled to assistance from His Majesty's Navy. I repeat that that was the position during the American civil war and in the other instances that I have mentioned.
What would the Opposition have said if we had acted in this dispute as we acted in the American Civil War? Would they not have said, could they have found the necessary vocabulary, that we were far more cowardly even than they allege we are to-day, and would they not also have said that we were affording the insurgents far more assistance than they allege we are doing to-day? The Leader of the Opposition said we had given up rights which had never been given up before. That is not true. If we had granted belligerent rights, we should have granted to General Franco and to the Spanish Government rights far in excess of anything that they enjoy at present.
Mr. Attlee: You are acquiescing in the sinking of British ships by mines without any warning.
Mr. Eden: On this occasion the Government have not gone as far in granting rights to the two parties as they did in the American Civil War. What we have done on the other side is to lay down quite firmly certain principles of nonintervention.
I should like to reply to one or two remarks made by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair). He made a powerful indictment of the Government but, as I listened to his eloquence, I found it more and more difficult to understand wherein lay the divergence between his point of view and that of the Government. I will seek to meet the points that he made but, frankly, I do not know in what he disagrees with our present position. He did not ask us about warships in Spanish territorial waters. The conditions at Bilbao would not be safe for warships. What he did ask—this is the same question that the hon. Gentleman put to me just now—is, would we protect British ships on the high seas up to the three-mile limit, and he gave an example which I took down. If one of our ships disregarded the warning that
1136
has been given, would it be protected if it were attacked before it reached the three-mile limit? The answer is quite definitely "Yes" [Interruption.] That is one of the results of the absence of nonintervention earlier in the Debate. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary dealt with that point. If there is any doubt, I am glad to have the opportunity to make it clear.
Sir A. Sinclair: Even if they disobey Board of Trade instructions?
Mr. Eden: Naturally, we hope they will not disobey instructions, but if they do and they are on the high seas they are entitled to protection. At the same time, we were bound to warn British ships of the dangers which we believe exist off the Bilbao coast and which we still believe, from our reports, do exist. We cannot guarantee, in view of the conditions there, that those ships would be safe in the territorial waters around Bilbao.
It is alleged that we have been, perhaps, unnecessarily timorous in our warnings to these ships. I think the Government would have incurred a very heavy responsibility if they had not given the warning which, on our information, we believe to be justified. We have heard to-night a good deal of belittling about the bombing going on in that part of the world. Just as I was getting up to speak I received a telegram from His Majesty's Consul at Bilbao, and in the very first sentence of it he said that there had been daily bombing during the past fortnight, destruction of the lines of communication and the suburbs of Bilbao on both sides of the river—aerodromes, factories and so on. One does not want to exaggerate, but it was surely the duty of the Government to make these facts known to British shipping. We have every reason to believe that British shipping, so far from sharing the objections of hon. Members opposite, fully appreciates and understands the action that we have taken. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has to-night received the following telegram from the Shipowners' Parliamentary Committee:
"It is important that you should be aware that the Board of Trade has from the commencement given the industry the fullest opportunity of mutual consultation on the steps that should be taken to protect British shipping, from the points of view of British shipping trade and employment, and safety

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of British seamen, and it has been satisfied from time to time that the Government was doing everything in its power to that end. The industry is now considering carefully the present situation and will lay the result before the Government immediately. Grateful if you will do everything in your power to avoid danger of giving Parliament or public impression that industry is dissatisfied with what has been done hitherto."
The next question the right hon. Gentleman asked me was: What about mines outside territorial waters? He did not ask hat we should go inside territorial waters and sweep up mines, but he asks what is to happen outside? That, the Government are considering. We can give no guarantee of what action we might have to take, but if it became necessary for the protection of British shipping to carry out mine-sweeping on the high seas, then His Majesty's Government are certainly prepared to consider it. That in itself is a very formidable task.
There seemed to me to be a very considerable divergence of view between the right hon. Member for Caithness and the party opposite. I have no wish to misquote the Leader of the Opposition. I may have misunderstood him, but as I understood the position of the right hon. Member for Caithness, they do not ask and have not asked us to take any action inside Spanish territorial waters. As I understand the party opposite, what they would like us to do is to sweep the approaches to Bilbao, whether within or without Spanish territorial waters, with British mine-sweepers, under the protection of the British Fleet, and escort shipping right into the port itself. If that is what they want us to do, what I find so difficult to understand is that they should not appreciate that action of that kind must inevitably, or could easily, be regarded as intervention.
May I say one word on this very difficult question of territorial water? Spanish territorial waters are places within Spanish jurisdiction, and it can be argued—there are two if not more schools of thought among legal authorities on this question—that to take forcible action within Spanish territorial waters would amount to intervention in the struggle just as clearly as if His Majesty's Government landed troops on Spanish soil to convoy lorries to a given point. Everyone who has studied this question knows how immensely complicated territorial waters questions are, but it is at least arguable
1138
that if territorial waters are to be treated as land, the arguments that apply to intervention on land apply equally to intervention in territorial waters. At any rate, I am not seeking to say that that is the right conclusion. All that I am seeking to point out to the House is, if these arguments are valid at all, what must be our criterion? Surely the only possible criterion is whether or not certain action of ours constitutes intervention in the Spanish conflict.
The hon. Member for Derby greatly narrowed, if I may say so, the scope of non-intervention, as we understand it and as we, the French Government and ourselves, agreed to it last August. What we agreed was not merely to apply nonintervention to arms and munitions and so on. It is true that the practical application of non-intervention has been limited to a certain number of things so far, but what we jointly agreed was to avoid all complications which might prejudice good relations between the nations and to refrain strictly from all interference, direct or indirect, in the internal affairs of Spain. What I contend is that if we were to send British mine-sweepers, supported by the British Navy, into Spanish territorial waters to rescue, by supplies, a beleaguered city, that might be argued to be intervention.
Let me try to give a parallel away from Spain, because it is so difficult, when we are talking of Spain, to keep our thoughts clear. Let us take a parallel in this country and suppose that His Majesty's Opposition are at war with His Majesty's Government, and suppose that His Majesty's Government are beleaguered by His Majesty's Opposition in the City of Bristol. What would be the feeling of His Majesty's Opposition, supposing neither of us had been accorded belligerent rights and supposing a foreign Power sent help to us in Bristol and forced that help through the cordon drawn up by His Majesty's Opposition? How would hon. Members opposite regard that? They would regard it as intervention. It would be nothing else. I hope I have successfully removed the doubts of some hon. Members as to what is the actual position.
What lies behind a great deal of this discussion is the attitude towards nonintervention. The hon. Member for

1139
Derby is frankly a partisan of the Government in Spain. In every part of the House there are hon. Members who have leanings for this and the other side, but it is the conviction of the Government that a policy of non-intervention is the only means at their disposal to prevent this conflict spreading beyond the borders of Spain. The right hon. Member for Caithness complained of delay, and said that after all these weary months the control scheme is not yet in operation. He said that we had to meet a new situation. I agree. I can assure him that however anxious he may be for this control scheme to come into force, he cannot be as anxious as I am. I do not believe that anybody, except possibly hon. Members on the benches opposite, would suggest that it is due to His Majesty's Government that the scheme has not come into operation sooner. We have spared no effort, no time, no money or endeavour to bring the scheme into operation at the earliest possible moment, and, in justice to everybody concerned, it must be remembered that never before in history has anything of the kind been attempted. I wish we could have done it through the League of Nations organisation; it would have saved much time, but we could not because two of the important Powers were not participating in the activities of the League. It had to be improvised in London, and the task has not been easy.
But something has been achieved. We have secured agreement about the supply of arms and volunteers, and also in regard to the observation scheme. More may be achieved yet. I am informed that discussion on the withdrawal of volunteers is going to be resumed by the Committee at its next meeting. [Interruption.] Hon. Members may scoff, but what is their alternative? Surely instead of active intervention by men, money and munitions, the correct policy for this country is to persist in doing everything it can to make non-intervention effective. If that is so, would it not be the height of folly for us to take a step at this moment which might be construed—I think with some justification; hon. Members opposite think with no justification at all—as a pretext by others to throw over the non-intervention arrangements. If we were to adopt the
1140
view, which, I understand, is the view of the Opposition and send our minesweepers to Spanish waters with the British Fleet in support, if we fired our anti-aircraft guns at insurgent aeroplanes, can you be certain that you would not be giving a pretext for tearing this nonintervention agreement to pieces. If the non-intervention scheme were torn to pieces, who would benefit? Not the Spanish Government. I have here some very wise words which were written on this subject:
"It is suggested that non-intervention should be thrown over, that the foreign Fascist troops should be withdrawn from Spain, that the Spanish Government should be provided with arms.
If these were the likely results of scrapping non-intervention now there is no one of the Labour Party who would not strive with all his might for the ending of that policy.
But in view of what has actually happened these last eight months, can it be reasonably doubted that the results would not be these, but the very reverse?
Can it be doubted that, short of European war (and if that is proposed, then out with it), the only hope of preventing the further landing of divisions of the Italian Army in Spain is the Naval control?
During the period before non-intervention in arms did not the rebels profit more than the Government …?
And if non-intervention were now abandoned, is it not certain that the Fascists would pour men into Spain until a Government defeat were asured?"
That is the "Daily Herald" of 15th March.
Mr. Cocks: He will get a peerage for that.
Mr. Eden: It is very sound sense; whether that deserves a peerage I do not know. Above all our object must be to prevent this dispute spreading beyond Spain. That, I am convinced, is what this nation wants. We cannot discuss this question as though we were isolated in Europe. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) accused us of not facing up to the dictators. You cannot treat this question as though it were isolated from all others. The other day an international conference declared the international situation in Europe to be improved. I believe their judgment to be correct but no one can doubt its extreme delicacy at this time. I confess that I am not greatly moved by charges of cowardice, the white flag, the white feather or these charming tributes which

1141
have been handed out to the Government to-day. The Foreign Secretary of this country to-day is responsible not for his own life, which is quite unimportant, but the lives of millions of people. In my view an act of cowardice would be if in order to try to secure some fleeting success, or to try to win some temporary round of applause, he was to run risks of damaging peace which were not justified by the situation.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) made an appeal for arbitration. I do not regret the words my right hon. Friend has spoken. They will go out to wider circles. He will not expect me to comment on them except to say this. If ever this country can make a contribution to bring this conflict to an end that contribution will not only be readily but eagerly made. Almost the only thing on which the right hon. Member for Caithness and the right hon. Member for Epping agreed was that they both said that this country's signal position of detachment well qualified us for that task. I ask for no better tribute to the work we have been trying to do, and it is sincerely in that spirit that we shall persevere.
Sir A. Sinclair: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to clear up
one point? Am I right in interpreting the answer which he was kind enough to give to one of my questions in this sense: that if the food ships which are now lying at St. Jean de Luz intimate to the senior naval officer of that station that they intend, in spite of the Board of Trade's instruction, to carry their cargoes into Bilbao, they be afforded the protection of His Majesty's ships right up to the territorial limits?
Mr. Eden: In answering the right hon. Gentleman, I will be quite frank. Our hope is that they will not go, because in view of our reports of the conditions, we do not think it safe for them to go. Our reports of conditions inside Spanish territorial waters do not correspond to those which were read out this afternoon. That is why we have given that advice. If, in spite of that advice, those ships do go, then they will be afforded protection up to the three-mile limit.
Question put,
"That this House, taking note of the statement of the Prime Minister on the situation at Bilbao, deplores the failure of His Majesty's Government to give protection to British merchant ships on their lawful occasions."
The House divided: Ayes, 130; Noes, 345.

Division No. 139.]

AYES.

[10.55 p.m.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Fletcher, U.-Comdr. R. T. H.

Lunn, W.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Frankel, D.

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Adamson, W. M.

Gardner, B. W.

McEntee, V. La T.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Garro Jones, G. M,

Maclean, N.

Ammon, C. G.

Gibbins, J.

MacNeill, Weir, L.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Gibson, R (Greenock)

Mainwaring, W. H.

Banfield, J. W.

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Marshall, F.

Barnes, A. J.

Grenfell, D. R.

Mathers, G.

Batey, J.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Maxton, J.

Bellenger, F. J.

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Milner, Major J.

Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

Groves, T. E.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Bevan, A.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Muff, G.

Broad, F. A.

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Naylor, T. E.

Bromfield, W.

Hardie, G. D.

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Brooke, W.

Hayday, A.

Oliver, G. H.

Brown, C. (Mansfield)

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Parker, J.

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Parkinson, J. A.

Buchanan, G.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Potts, J.

Burke, W. A.

Hopkin, D.

Price, M. P.

Cassells, T.

Jagger, J.

Pritt, D. N.

Charleton, H, C.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Quibell, D. J. K.

Chater, D.

Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Cluse, W. S.

John, W.

Ridley, G.

Cocks, F. S.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Riley, B.

Cove, W. G.

Jones, J. J. (Silvertown)

Ritson, J.

Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

Daggar, G.

Kelly, W. T.

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Dalton, H.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Rowson, G.

Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

Kirby, B. V.

Sanders, W. S.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Lathan, G.

Sexton, T. M.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Lawson, J. J.

Short, A.

Day, H.

Leach, W.

Silkin, L.

Dobbie, W.

Lee, F.

Silverman, S. S.

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

Leonard, W.

Simpson, F. B.

Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

Leslie, J. R.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Viant, S. P.

Williams, D. (Swansea, E.)

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Walkden, A. G.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Walker, J.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Stephen, C.

Watkins, F. C.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Watson, W. McL.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Welsh, J. C.

Thurtle, E.

Westwood, J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Tinker, J. J.

Whiteley, W.

Sir Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Gunston, Capt. D. W.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Guy, J. C. M.

Albery, Sir Irving

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Hamilton, Sir G. C.

Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

Hannah, I, C.

Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Harbord, A.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.

Hartington, Marquess of

Apsley, Lord

Cranborne, Viscount

Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

Aske, Sir R. W.

Critchley, A.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Assheton, R.

Crooke, J. S.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

Croom-Johnson, R. P.

Hepworth, J.

Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

Crossley, A. C.

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Crowder, J. F. E.

Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Cruddas, Col. B.

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

Culverwell, C. T.

Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C C.

Holdsworth, H.

Balniel, Lord

Davies, C. (Montgomery)

Holmes, J. S.

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Barrie, Sir C. C.

Davison, Sir W. H.

Hopkinson, A.

Baxter, A. Beverley

Dawson, Sir P.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Denville, Alfred

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

Doland, G. F.

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Donner, P. W.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Beit, Sir A. L.

Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

Hunter, T.

Bernays, R. H.

Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

Hurd, Sir P. A.

Birchall, Sir J. D.

Drewe, C.

Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

Bird, Sir R. B.

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Blair, Sir R.

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Joel, D. J. B.

Blaker, Sir R.

Dugdale, Major T. L.

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Duggan, H. J.

Jones, L. (Swansea W.)

Bossom, A. C.

Duncan, J. A. L.

Keeling, E. H.

Boulton, W. W.

Dunglass, Lord

Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Eastwood, J. F.

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Eckersley, P. T.

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W.

Edge, Sir W.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Boyce, H. Leslie

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E

Latham, Sir P.

Bracken, B.

Ellis, Sir G.

Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Elliston, Capt. G. S.

Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

Brass, Sir W.

Elmley, Viscount

Leckie, J. A.

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Emery, J. F.

Lees-Jones, J.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Leigh, Sir J.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Entwistle, Sir C. F.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Bull, B. B.

Errington, E.

Levy, T.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Lewis, O.

Burghley, Lord

Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

Liddall, W. S.

Burgin, Dr. E. L.

Everard, W. L.

Lindsay, K. M.

Burton, Col. H. W.

Fildes, Sir H.

Little, Sir E. Graham-

Butler, R. A.

Fleming, E. L.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Caine, G. R. Hall-

Fox, Sir G. W. G.

Lloyd, G. W.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Furness, S. N.

Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Carver, Major W. H.

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Loftus, P. C.

Cary, R. A.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Lyons, A. M.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey and Otley)

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

McCorquodale, M. S.

Cayzer, Sir H. R, (Portsmouth, S.)

Gledhill, G.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Scot. U.)

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Gluckstein, L. H.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

Channon, H.

Grant-Ferris, R.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Granville, E. L.

McKie, J. H.

Chorlton, A. E. L.

Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

Maclay, Hon. J. P.

Christie, J. A.

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Macquisten, F. A.

Clarke, F. E. (Dartford)

Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

Magnay, T.

Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead)

Grimston, R. V.

Maitland, A.

Clarry, Sir Reginald

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Colman, N. C. D.

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Markham, S. F.

1144

1145

Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

Rayner, Major R. H.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark. N.)

Maxwell, Hon. S. A.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Reid, Captain A. Cunningham

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Remer, J. R.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Sutcliffe, H.

Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. F,

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Tate, Mavis C.

Moreing, A. C.

Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Morgan, R. H.

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)

Rowlands, G.

Thomas, J. P. L.

Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. W.

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

Salmon, Sir I.

Touche, G. C.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Salt, E. W.

Train, Sir J.

Nall, Sir J.

Sandeman, Sir N. S.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Nicholson, G. (Farnham)

Sandys, E. D.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Turton, R. H.

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Savery, Sir Servington

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Scott, Lord William

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G. A.

Selley, H. R.

Warrender, Sir V.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Shakespeare, G. H.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Watt, G. S. H.

Patrick, C. M.

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Wayland, Sir W. A

Peake, O.

Shepperson, Sir E. W.

Weddernurn, H. J. S.

Peat, C. U.

Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

Wells, S. R.

Penny, Sir G.

Simmonds, O. E.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Perkins, W. R. D.

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Petherick, M.

Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Pilkington, R.

Smithers, Sir W.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Plugge, Capt. L. F.

Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Porritt, R. W.

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.

Wragg, H.

Procter, Major H. A.

Spens, W. P.

Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.

Radford, E. A.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

Ramsbotham, H.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

Ramsden, Sir E.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Rankin, Sir R.

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Captain Margesson and Sir James

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Storey, S.

Blindell.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

The Orders of the Day were read, and postponed.

ADJOURNMENT.
Resolved,
"That this House do now adjourn."— [Captain Margesson.]
Adjourned accordingly at Ten Minutes after Eleven o'clock.

COAL INDUSTRY.
  EXPORTS.
  EXPORTS.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  STATISTICS (GREAT BRITAIN AND FOREIGN COUNTRIES).
  STATISTICS (GREAT BRITAIN AND FOREIGN COUNTRIES).
  SOUTH WALES (STATISTICS).
  SOUTH WALES (STATISTICS).
  MERCANTILE MARINE (SUBSIDY).
  MERCANTILE MARINE (SUBSIDY).
  CHINA CLAY AND TIN MINING.
  CHINA CLAY AND TIN MINING.
  WATER SUPPLY AND SEWERAGE, WALES.
  WATER SUPPLY AND SEWERAGE, WALES.
  INCOME TAX AND SUPER-TAX.
  INCOME TAX AND SUPER-TAX.
  BRITISH INDUSTRIES (SUBSIDIES AND SUBVENTIONS).
  BRITISH INDUSTRIES (SUBSIDIES AND SUBVENTIONS).
  RAILWAY FINANCE CORPORATION.
  RAILWAY FINANCE CORPORATION.
  BEER AND SPIRITS (REVENUE).
  BEER AND SPIRITS (REVENUE).
TRANSPORT.
  SCHOOLS (PROTECTION OF CHILDREN).
  SCHOOLS (PROTECTION OF CHILDREN).
  ROAD ACCIDENTS, LONDON.
  ROAD ACCIDENTS, LONDON.
  RAILWAY DEVELOPMENT SCHEMES.
  RAILWAY DEVELOPMENT SCHEMES.
  EDGWARE-MORDEN TUBE RAILWAY.
  EDGWARE-MORDEN TUBE RAILWAY.
  SIGHT-SEEING, LONDON (MOTOR VEHICLES).
  SIGHT-SEEING, LONDON (MOTOR VEHICLES).
  BERMUDA (STERILISATION).
  BERMUDA (STERILISATION).
  GOLD COAST (REVENUE SURPLUS).
  GOLD COAST (REVENUE SURPLUS).
  ST. HELENA.
  ST. HELENA.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  SPAIN.
  SPAIN.
  EGYPT (BRITISH OFFICIALS).
  EGYPT (BRITISH OFFICIALS).
  WEST AFRICA (ECONOMIC PRODUCTS).
  WEST AFRICA (ECONOMIC PRODUCTS).
  CHINA (BRITISH PROPERTY RENTS).
  CHINA (BRITISH PROPERTY RENTS).

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The EARL OF ONSLOW on the Woolsack.
The Lord Blythswood—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his brother.
Several Peers—Took the Oath.
The Lord Dudley—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
NORTH DEVON WATER BILL. [H.L.]
NORTH DEVON ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
LORD ELTISLEY LORD ELTISLEY had given Notice that he would move, That Standing Order No. 105 be considered in order to it being dispensed with in respect of the said Bills, and that the Bills be now read 2a. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that Standing Order No. 105 be considered in order to it being dispensed with in respect of the North Devon Water Bill and the North Devon Electric Power Bill. I think the Lord Chairman will agree that this is a purely formal Motion that has to be made when a Bill is not ready for debate within the time prescribed by Standing Order No. 105. I beg to move.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 105 be considered in order to it being dispensed with in respect of the North Devon Water Bill and the North Devon Electric Power Bill.—(Lord Eltisley.)
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, I rather object to this. The reason why there has to be this dispensation is that the promoters could not find any Peer having anything to do with Devon to move the Second Reading during the last sittings. I do not see why we should have to deal with the Bills now.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

NORTH DEVON WATER BILL. [H.L.]
LORD ELTISLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that the North Devon Water Bill

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be read a second time. I am aware that under the Standing Orders of the House it is necessary for one formally to move the Second Readings of the North Devon Water Bill and the North Devon Electric Power Bill individually and separately, but I think it would be for the convenience of the House that the Second Reading debate on these two Bills should be taken in the form of a general discussion upon the merits of both taken together. The two Bills seek to make provision for comprehensive and almost interdependent schemes. Therefore I venture with respect to seek the permission of your Lordships to deal with them by way of a general discussion. The scheme is to use the high altitude and the heavy rainfall of the Taw Marsh area so as to provide primarily a water supply for certain parts of North Devon and incidentally an additional source of cheap electricity for the companies who are already authorised to distribute electricity in the North Devon area. The area which it is proposed to serve in this way comprises districts governed by six borough councils, three urban district councils and nine rural district councils. The population at the last Census was, I believe, in the neighbourhood of 130,000 but it is believed to be now approximately 142,000. That figure excludes the population in the urban district of Ilfracombe and that in the City of Exeter. Both those areas were never essential parts of the proposed scheme and directly opposition showed itself on a considerable scale the promoters, not desiring particularly to include them, left them out of the scheme.
With regard to the six boroughs and three urban districts to which I have referred there is some form of piped water supply, but in certain cases the supply is admittedly inadequate or it is inadequate in dry seasons. There is undoubtedly a demand for additional sources of water supply at certain times. In the area governed by the nine rural district councils there are 203 parishes. In 177 of those parishes there is no piped water supply at all. Only twenty-six parishes, that is about one parish in eight, have piped water supplies. Sanitary conditions on account of the absence of water supply are of the kind one would naturally expect. They are not particularly creditable to the communities in those areas at the present time, having regard
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to the fact that water could be made available. The remedy may be looked at from two angles. There could be a pumped supply of water, because most of the villages concerned are at the top of little hills. That would be one way of dealing with the matter, but it would give a purely local supply. On the other hand, you can have what I suggest would be a better way of dealing with the matter on a bigger and wider scale by giving a proper piped supply of water drawn from the higher altitudes. That water would be taken to the villages under the gravity pressure system and the people would get a supply which in regard to both quality and quantity is excellent.
In addition to the fact that there are 177 villages in which there is no piped supply one has to take into account the industry of agriculture, which I always regard as really the primary industry of our country. Devonshire is an agricultural district devoted very largely to dairying. There are no fewer than 1,528 dairy producers registered by the local authorities and also many unregistered milk producers—how many I am not in a position to inform the House, but a very large number. I would venture to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the question of nutrition is looming larger and larger in the public mind, and, when you talk of nutrition, nothing looms more prominently than the question of an adequate milk supply in the country. It is one of the first items to which the attention of everyone is drawn when the subject of nutrition is being discussed. The question of milk supply on large and generous lines is becoming more and more the primary point in the policy of the country. For adequate milk supplies large quantities of pure water are needed. Wholesome milk is best produced where large quantities of water are available.
It is said that cows require on the average something like 15 to 20 gallons per cow every day, and the younger stock lesser amounts, and but few farmers, relatively speaking, are able to obtain all the conveniences and advantages which would be theirs under a scheme such as this if more adequate supplies of water were available. In addition to the needs of the farmers I would draw attention to the fact that there are two large milk factories concerned with the production of butter and of powdered and condensed milk which would be willing to use larger

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quantities of water if they could obtain them. Besides that aspect of the question there is also the question of the growing residential and holiday population, for which provision is made at certain times, but all the resources which are needed are not available arid there is no doubt that the fuller development of the public services of gas, water and electricity would tend to assist the development of that kind of growth.
Now I should like to say that electricity is already extensively used in the district and is available in most of the villages. There are two large companies which distribute electricity in that area, the Exe Valley Electricity Company, Limited, and the West Devon Electricity Supply Company, Limited, but it is estimated that the demand for electricity will rapidly increase and that some 6,000,000 units can be and will be provided under the electricity side of this scheme; and provisional arrangements have already been made by which those companies who are charged with the distribution of electricity will be given bulk supplies. It is believed and anticipated that by 1939–1940 the bulk supply will amount to something like 6,000,000 units from the hydro-electric plant which will be put up for that purpose. The companies will take it on terms which it is believed will make the electrical undertaking self-supporting and, in fact, make it able to contribute somewhat towards the expense of the water undertaking, and presumably cheapen that side of the scheme. May I venture to point out also the value of electricity?
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: Is this the Electricity or the Water Bill?
LORD ELTISLEY: I have the permission of the House to refer to both, for which I am more than grateful. Electrical development is very important so far as the development of rural industries is concerned, and in this area there are still many rural industries doing useful work in competition even with modern factory industries. Now may I mention the reason for the selection of this area? In the Taw Marsh an admirable site is found for a reservoir of considerable size. It would be a reservoir covering some 323 acres: that is to say, half a square mile. This would be half a square mile for making the reservoir out of the 200 square miles which are comprised in Dartmoor.
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It is a basin surrounded by little hills with a narrow outlet, very suitable for turning into a reservoir. By the courtesy of those responsible I have been permitted to put up pictures in the Library showing both the site of the reservoir as it now is and the reservoir as it is hoped that it will be when it is developed.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: May I take this opportunity of saying at once that those two pictures are going to be very seriously challenged on the score of accuracy?
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I quite agree.
LORD ELTISLEY: I have, of course, been down to see the site, and my point of view is that the pictures depict the thing as it now is and as I hope it will be in the years to come. At any rate, they are there for every member who knows the site to form his own opinion upon the matter. The catchment area is a very good one. I believe that there are practically no human habitations at all in this area and it is therefore free from pollution. Moreover, there are no large deposits of peat and the water obtained from the area is clear and will remain colourless. The rainfall is very good in North Devon and losses from evaporation are not so large there as in other parts of the country. The elevation is over 1,000 feet: to be precise, I believe it is 1,150 feet above sea level, and that very valuable elevation provides for a gravity supply, which will obviate the need for pumps. The natural advantages of that particular outlet are remarkable.
There are no alternative proposals, so far as I am aware, which offer the same advantages. There is no doubt that it will be said, and in certain cases it is quite true, that a local scheme might be promoted for purely local communities cheaper than this scheme, but that would only be for limited areas and for particular places, probably on the flanks of the moor, where supply could be better provided in that way. As so many villages are more or less on the higher ground, a gravity system could be made to run from this high altitude reservoir to supply them with water cheaper, probably, than individual pumping systems could be provided for the locality. There is also always the added danger of pollution to a pump system taking water

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from the vicinity of a village. Moreover, the streams draw their water, as they run, from agricultural land, and the water is not likely to be at any rate as pure as that which would be taken from the reservoir. Further, if pumping is done from local streams, these, as we know, are apt to dry up, and if you are going to give the inhabitants a storage system, it is at once expensive. It is much easier to take that storage from a properly-built reservoir, which would practically guarantee continuity of supply under any and all conditions. As I have already pointed out, there might be purely local schemes or even one or two regional schemes, but in that case you would have to find another reservoir site and it would be at a lower altitude with a lower rainfall, and a much larger catchment area would be called for.
No powers are contemplated in the Bill to compete in distribution of water with any of the existing undertakers, and the promoters disclaim any desire or wish to undertake any of the duties or responsibility of local authorities in this respect. The Bill does provide, however, for their being able to give a piped supply where the local authorities happen to be unwilling, or are not prepared, to undertake the task of local distribution. None of the boroughs, the urban district councils or rural district councils oppose the scheme—which is saying a good deal as there are six boroughs—except Okehampton, whose petition is being dealt with and I believe that the opposition they are putting forward is due to misunderstanding of the proposed Bill. On the other side of the picture we have many resolutions from local authorities, giving support to the principle contained in the Bill. I need not weary the House with a long list of individual representations, but they are considerable in number.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: And the petition of the County Council is against the Bill.
LORD ELTISLEY: If I am given permission to put the Bill before the House I hope to anticipate some of these points. The Duchy of Cornwall, who own the site of the proposed reservoir, are willing to give facilities and have not petitioned against the Bill. Certain common rights are claimed by commoners over about 176 acres, and I believe some little
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difference has arisen between the commoners and the Duchy as to them, but nothing, I believe, is questioned which cannot be happily adjusted in Committee. The important point of finance is raised in some quarters. The promoters are largely Devonshire people. They are connected with the South-West Utilities Limited, who have behind them Associated Gas and Water Undertakings, Limited. Undertakings have been given, which I believe under examination elsewhere have proved to be quite satisfactory, to subscribe to or procure the subscription of the necessary capital for the work visualised. I hope and believe that in Committee it will be quite possible to refute and dispose of the damaging suggestion that the finance of the scheme is inadequate, or that the Bill is not a genuine and proper Bill sponsored by responsible people and that the finance is not provided in a responsible manner.
The question of amenities is a very important matter, and I would like to say that the promoters desire to work in the closest harmony and collaboration with bodies responsible for the amenities of that district. The scheme has already been explained locally to the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and the Commons and Footpaths Protection Society, and neither of those bodies have seen fit to petition against the Bill—at least I have not received or heard of any petition. As to the amenity question generally, those of your Lordships who have visited the locality, or who know the locality, will be aware that the transformation of what is sometimes a marshy basin into what I regard as a glorious sheet of water cannot detract but must, in the main, add to the sporting advantages, and above all to the scenic beauty of this moorland district.
Apart from the question of pure amenity, I think behind it and linked up with it is the economic aspect of the question—namely, the need of making the fullest use of the advantages with which any particular locality is endowed. Very few economic advantages are to be drawn from such an area, unless it be the possibility of such an area providing light, heat and power for other places where such facilities are called for. The main function of any association or of those concerned with the amenities is, it seems to me, the preservation of rural England

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so far as it is reasonable and practicable, the preservation of those amenities by careful forethought and anticipation, while at the same time seeing that no steps are taken which are unnecessary to the proper growth and development of the countryman's heritage.
Petitions have been lodged against the Bill, and there is an important petition from the Devon County Council. I have read that petition carefully, and I do not regard it as a hostile petition. It points out certain difficulties and certain things that should be done, but I venture to suggest to the House that it is not really a hostile petition, because those things arc dealt with in it as matters to be considered in Committee, which indicates that, in the view of some of those at any rate associated with the petition, the Bill would be taken in Committee. It also points out that certain parts of the area are in urgent need of supplies of water. The promoters take the view that the petition of the County Council is merely requiring them to prove that the comprehensive scheme proposed by the Bill is going to be better than a whole series of local schemes. That is obviously a technical matter, and the promoters are prepared to prove, and I believe they can prove it to the satisfaction of your Lordships' House. Moreover, it is interesting to note that it appears to be the habit of certain bodies always to petition against proposals, not necessarily because they object to the proposals made but in order to assure themselves of a full locus when the Bill is being considered in Committee.
Then there is the Okehampton Borough's petition, which raises questions which are capable of adjustment; while the cases of Exeter and Ilfracombe have been met, as I have already stated in my opening observations, by cutting out of the area of supply those two bodies. There is too a petition from certain commoners. There are the Belstone commoners, who claim grazing and other rights over Dartmoor. What those rights are is being challenged by the Duchy of Cornwall, but they do not affect more than thirty-seven acres out of the whole of Dartmoor. The commoners of South Tawton, the commoners on the other side of the reservoir, are much more affected than those of Belstone. On the South Tawton side the population is 1,182, as
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against only 321 on the Belstone side, but they have not petitioned against the Bill.
So far as fishery aspects are concerned, the local fishery boards are not opposing the scheme, I believe because they understand that the position would be rather improved than seriously damaged. With regard to ancient monuments, they are not going to be submerged by the proposed reservoir or affected in any way. Some mill-owners are concerned about their power on short sections of the river, and in dry periods it could be arranged to give them all the power they might require drawn from other sources—namely, electrical sources—and I think agreement could be reached on this point. One or two house owners have lodged objections, and the Southern Railway Company have objected to certain points, but so little do they fundamentally object to the scheme that they are proposing to give rights over many miles of their railway system on which the pipe can be laid for the convenience of the proposed company.
I desire to thank the House for the very generous way in which they have listened to me to-day. I know that detail of this kind is not very much appreciated. It is a purely local question, and therefore I greatly value the courtesy which the House has so kindly extended to me. I believe that there is a need for this scheme, or else I should not be trespassing on the time of the House. There is an advantage to be drawn both from the electricity and the water projects. The site is very good for the purpose. The scheme is not speculative, it is properly sponsored by responsible people. Compensation will be freely given to all those who are entitled to compensation. The two Bills do not raise any new or serious questions of principle. It is for those reasons that I venture with all humility to ask the House to grant what is very usual in such cases—a Second Reading to both these Bills, so enabling them to be considered in detail and on their merits in Committee, from which I hope they will emerge as Acts of real and lasting value and benefit to the community in that part of our country. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Eltisley.)
LORD ROCKLEY LORD ROCKLEY, in whose name stood a Motion for the rejection of the Bill, said: My Lords, I have some difficulty in explaining to your Lordships why I propose to take the action that I am doing after the interesting speech which we have just heard, but I have noticed as the speech proceeded that the noble Lord has, I think, entirely misconstrued the real questions at issue. Most of them are not questions of detail, which affect Committee points only. It is a cardinal principle whether you are or are not going to destroy an area which has been specially well known for centuries as an unusually beautiful district in this Kingdom. You can always bring up specious arguments representing—or misrepresenting—certain localities; but this is a much bigger question, otherwise I should not be moving the rejection of the Bill on its Second Reading at all. I am one of the last people to think that it ought to be a common practice to move rejections on Second Reading as a rule, and I am very reluctant to do it. But there are limits, and I think that the noble Lord who has just spoken has entirely ignored that fact.
I should like to know whether, were it possible, the noble Lord would sponsor a Bill for, let us say, building houses all over Hyde Park. We are all agreed that that is an open space which must be retained. I do not know whether the noble Lord is equally prepared to destroy the Lake District in Cumberland or the New Forest by schemes which, in spite of what he has said, are private speculative schemes. He speaks of tourists, but surely tourists revel in open spaces. They are specially attracted by them. Will they be attracted by open spaces if they are built over, or become full of manufactories? If you put manufactories all over the New Forest or the Regent's Park would that be a public advantage? It seems to me there is a very big question of principle there, and it is that the preservation of exceptional beauty spots in this Kingdom is a very desirable movement which ought not to be checked by proposals of this kind. I am not sure how far the proposers of this scheme desire to go. They seem to me rather to have blinkers over their eyes, to see only the scientific and technical aspects of such developments and entirely to ignore much broader questions.
I would like to touch on the question of procedure. I do not know what exactly the Chairman of Committees, Lord Onslow, would say, but I cannot believe that a Second Reading of any Private Bill is always to be taken as a matter of course. What is the use of having second Readings at all if that stage is to be passed as a matter of course? And there are precedents for throwing out Private Bills on Second Reading. It was seven years ago that a very forcible precedent was given in another place. A Private Bill was brought forward, under which it was proposed to build a huge bridge over the mouth of Poole Harbour, about 250 yards wide. It was a private company's speculation. The Bill was called the Bournemouth and Swanage Ferry Bill. The idea was to build a bridge and that you should motor up by circles to the top, then cross over and, so to speak, plane down on the other side. The Bill was violently attacked in the House of Commons as being a quite improper project. It was not wanted in the least. I believe that the private speculating company which brought it forward thought that they were going to make a good deal of money out of it by taxing every motor car which used the bridge. They were going, as they thought, to make a large fortune. If they failed the bridge would be left as a permanent eyesore. It would be nobody's business to take it down, and it would have remained there to make a beautiful place hideous. I am glad to tell your Lordships that that Bill has not been revived since the House of Commons decisively defeated it on Second Reading, and I think that no one in the neighbourhood wishes to hear of it again. To-day we have a similar position, and I should have thought that either your Lordships' House or the other House ought sooner or later to take this question in hand quite as severely.
I rather fancy that my noble friend who has moved the Second Reading has been interested in doing so because he takes the scientific attitude rather than that of those who wish to preserve our beauty spots. He has done so much good work as Chairman of the Water Companies Association (I think it is) and he is also interested in electricity. But there is a much wider aspect, which I hope this House will consider. In Dartmoor, which is a beauty spot reputed for

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many centuries, we have a place which is visited not only by tourists from other parts of Great Britain but from the Empire, and it is pre-eminently a place that ought not to be subjected to engineering experiments. There is plenty of literature to be found from eminent men who take a strong view on this subject of destroying natural amenities. I remember that the late Rector of Exeter College, Dr. Farnell, was one of them. A fellow members of this House, Lord Conway, is another. Professor G. M. Trevelyan also takes the same line.
I do not want to detain your Lordships, but there arc two or three other points about which I ought to say a few words. I have had letters from this district, with which, I should explain, I am in no sense connected and in which I have no special interest. Letters from commoners complain that their rights are going to be infringed and I have had opposition written to me from farmers and others. I do not think that some of the general observations made by the promoters of these Bills are at all accurate. To say that their intentions are not speculative but are merely designed to meet local needs is simply belied by the facts. To say that the finance is sound is to make a statement which is very severely questioned by some of the local authorities who have gone into it. To talk about these Bills not involving any question of principle seems to me so incorrect that that assertion deserves stern censure. If the demand for electricity is rapidly to increase, as the noble Lord, Lord Eltisley, has said, that only means that instead of having a beautiful country for tourists and others to enjoy, it will be replaced by factories everywhere consuming the electricity which the promoters of these Bills desire to sell. One point I wish to bring out is that the Devon County Council itself is entirely against the scheme. Why should we put through a Bill of this kind, or even let it go to Second Reading, if that is the condition of affairs?
I have some information about what the Devon County Council have done. They take objection quite as much to the finance matters as to some of the others which have been referred to. The Devon County Council have been examining this question for a considerable time. They have consulted engineers and others about the matter. They found
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that at the beginning—this was as far back as July, 1936—the ostensible object of the scheme was the supply of water to local authorities. The Council arranged for a conference in consequence. They held their conference, but then it began to emerge that it was not only a water scheme, as at first stated, but that an electric power scheme was to be fastened on to the water scheme. A portion of the water was to be used for generating electricity at Sticklepath in the immediate vicinity of the water reservoir, and it was intended to sell electricity in bulk to authorised distributors. That represented a very serious change of front on the part of the promoters. It was not the innocent water scheme which they talked about. It means that they want to become suppliers of electricity to factories and to develop the neighbourhood as a manufacturing district. Nothing definite resulted from the conference as there was nothing tangible in the way of figures to warrant any expression of opinion as to whether advantage could be taken of the water scheme; but there was strong local and other opposition—it is being displayed every day—and societies such as the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and the Commons Preservation Society have taken very decided action on this matter.
In due course these two Bills were lodged. With every desire to look fairly into them the Devon County Council came to the conclusion that, had the Water Bill stood alone, and had the Council been satisfied that the only intention was to perform a public service; that it could be satisfactorily financed; and that local authorities interested had expressed their readiness to avail themselves of such terms as the promoters might have offered them; then on public grounds it might have merited support. As the matter stands, no evidence was given of any contractual engagements having been entered into by those whom the water was supposed to benefit. Besides that, the Electric Power Bill is now brought in as an integral part of the scheme. The water scheme is subsidiary to the power scheme, and the County Council feel that this is an indirect method of starting a commercial enterprise. They are strongly of the opinion that the potential water rights of the County should not he utilised for such a purpose without strong opposition on their

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part. It is on that ground in particular, I think, that I am perfectly justified in moving the rejection of these Bills on Second Reading. There has also been professional advice taken and petitions have been lodged against these Bills. I must vigorously protest against this tendency to distort natural beauty for speculative purposes and to promote schemes unwanted by the public and disfiguring to the country. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now") and at the end of the Motion insert ("this day six months").—(Lord Rockley.)
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, I also have a Motion in connection with these Bills on the Order Paper. I am afraid I must commence with a little art criticism. The noble Lord, Lord Eltisley, has seen fit to place in your Lordships' Library two very charmingly painted water colours—charming as works of imagination. One of them shows, with quite reasonable accuracy, the Taw Marsh valley as it is to-day and the other one shows the same valley with the reservoir placed in it. I only arrived at the House in time to give a cursory glance at this picture which shows the "shape of things to come," and I noticed that the reservoir was bounded by an almost invisible, very low wall which appeared to be, at its greatest height, some twelve feet high, as far as one can judge scale from this water colour. I understand that, in fact, the wall contemplated will be sixty-five feet high, and I cannot believe that the picture which many of your Lordships have seen in any way accurately represents a dam of that character.
I turn to the statement which has been circulated on behalf of the promoters of this scheme in support of the Second Reading. Your Lordships have all had a copy of this statement and I think it is due to the promoters to pay some attention to the points which it contains. It begins by telling your Lordships that the Bill proposes to authorise the construction of a reservoir on Dartmoor for impounding the head waters of the River Taw and the East Okement River with a line of pipes (approximately thirty-four miles in length) and certain other waterworks. Let us consider what these waterworks are. There is to be an intake on the
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Back-a-ven Brook, which is a singularly lovely little stream running through the most charming Dartmoor surroundings. There is to be a channel for the diversion of that brook into the East Okement River and also an intake on the East Okement River, and then a very considerable work of engineering. I must tell your Lordships that these two little brooks, the Black-a-ven and the East Okement, are separated from the proposed reservoir by the vast granite mass of Belstone Tor. Belstone Tor is, I understand, to be tunnelled through in order to conduct the impounded waters of the East Okement River into the reservoir. That is an engineering work of considerble magnitude, and I find it impossible to believe that it can be undertaken with-out doing irreparable damage, or at any rate damage that will leave traces for many years upon the surroundings. There are various other works which will be necessary. There will be a considerable pipe line and a high-pressure pipe line, and there is to be an electric generating station to which I will advert in a moment.
In the third paragraph of this statement which I am asking your Lordships to consider, we find the words: "The intended reservoir will form a lake." I think the intended reservoir w ill form a reservoir. There is a considerable difference between a reservoir and a lake. The word lake as normally used means a pool of water formed by natural means with natural contours. We all understand what a reservoir means. It means that at least one side is cut off by a perfectly straight artificial barrier, and I do not think that the essentially artificial character of the reservoir is sufficiently described by saying it will form a lake. It is represented that this lake will be approximately 323 acres in extent—that is to say, half a square mile out of the 200 square miles of Dartmoor. It is true that only a comparatively small area of Dartmoor is actually going to be flooded, but the view from the principal peaks of northern Dartmoor is going to be very seriously changed. Some of the petitioners have pointed out that the proposed reservoir—that is to say the Taw Marsh valley—lies between famous views such as those from Belstone. I may add that this is a part of Dartmoor which has singularly well preserved its natural beauty from encroachments, and is in the

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summer much visited by those who love the moorland scenery of Devonshire. In the very middle of this lovely area the promoters intend to place an entirely artificial work. There are suggestions for concealing the exterior face of the dam by making the face a sloping one and to grow upon it tie herbage natural to Devonshire, but it is not so easy to plant heather and gorse artificially, as many of your Lordships who are agriculturists will agree.
There is a further suggestion in the statement, and also in the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Eltisley, that the Taw Marsh is merely a waterlogged swamp and that it is no great loss to Devonshire. That is not the case. I have taken some trouble to find out the true facts about the Taw Marsh valley which is to be covered with water. In the winter time the bottom part of the Taw Marsh valley naturally receives a considerable amount of rainwater, and it does become, especially just round about spring time, considerably waterlogged. In the summer, however, not only is it not waterlogged but it is in fact pasture land, and it is the favourite picknicking place of people who spend their summer holidays in Belstone and around. Okehampton. It is a well-known beauty spot and it is perfectly dry enough for families to go there to have tea.
Further, and this I think must prove my contention, on five days a week during the summer months it is the only part of Belstone Common where the commoners can drive their beasts. The upper part of Belstone Common is utilised as an artillery range by the Array, and on five days a week when use is being made of that range the beasts have to be driven off arid the only place they can be driven to is this Taw Marsh valley. The beasts go there, and the fact that they can go and pasture there must really disprove once arid for all suggestion as that this is mere waterlogged ground. As for the rights of the commoners it is suggested that they should be dealt with by compensation. That sounds very plausible in London, but it does not sound quite so plausible on the spot. If they are not to use this Taw Marsh valley during the time the artillery range is being used it is not easy to see where the beasts are to go at all. In other words the noble Lord, Lord Eltisley, with whom I entirely agree in his proposition that nutrition is of supreme import
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ance, is going to deprive the farmers of the Belstone area of the possibility of keeping cattle at all. That is not a matter for which monetary compensation is in any degree adequate.
Now I turn to the statement that as far as practicable the pipe lines are to be put underground. That is obviously a phrase which gives one very little reassurance. Then a very extraordinary argument is used in this paper. We are told that the proposal to take water from East Okement River for a public supply is not a novel one. That is perfectly true. It is perfectly true that Dartmoor, especially southern Dartmoor, has already been very considerably exploited. In the last century and even before that, Dartmoor attracted those who desired to exploit its water resources, and I think we all admit our ancestors were too little careful of the heritage of their natural beauty with the result that very considerable encroachments upon the wild beauty of Dartmoor have already been made in the south. But there is one area which has remained unspoiled, arid on my part I find it very difficult to enter into the minds of the promoters when they use the fact that portions of Dartmoor have already been spoiled as an argument for being allowed seriously to damage the one unspoiled area.
We are informed properly that the object of the Water Bill is to supply water to various places in North Devon. I fancy the whole scheme is an echo of a matter which received considerable public attention about two years ago. It was known as the water grid scheme. It was very much discussed in London and in the national Press. Proposals were made of a more or less practical character for creating a piped water system on a national scale all over the country. There was something to be said for that scheme and there was much to be said against it, but the one thing that was always taken for granted in discussions of the scheme was that it should be a national scheme and not a source of private profit. It was to be undertaken in a manner similar to the electricity grid scheme. There was to be a definite measure of national control. That of course is very far from being the case with the present Bill. This is an entirely private scheme, and I think one might quite accurately say an irresponsible scheme.

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We are also told that the promoters intend to ask for powers to supply water in bulk to manufacturers. I shall advert to the manufacturers later. The promoters have made much play with the fact that in certain scattered rural areas in North Devon there is a water problem of a more or less severe character. I do not think its severity should be exaggerated, but it is undoubtedly true that in the last year of drought there were certain rural parishes in North Devon where water supplies became alarmingly short and where there was some, though not great, hardship. The Devon County Council is very well aware of that problem. The Devon County Council, which is an extremely progressive body, is not likely to be negligent of that problem, and the Devon County Council is convinced that that problem can be solved on very different lines from those proposed in this Bill. I would like to refer in passing to one phrase in the speech of my noble friend Lord Eltisley, who said that a long list of local authorities could be produced who had passed resolutions supporting in principle the scheme in the Bill. According to the document circulated by the promoters six of the seventeen local authorities concerned have passed resolutions supporting in principle the scheme of the Bill.
Finally, I would like to say a word on the Electricity Bill. The site of the proposed generating station is to be Belstone Cleave. All that the promoters say about Belstone Cleave is that it is outside Dartmoor. That is true. It is nevertheless one of the loveliest valleys, I will not say in England, because I do not want to exaggerate, but one of the loveliest valleys in Devon. It is a valley of exquisite beauty. It is partly wild and rugged in character, but at the point where I understand the generating station is to be erected there is a lovely well developed wood where Skaigh Warren descends to the banks of the Taw. In that place, which is just on the outskirts of the typical Devon village of Stickle-path, we are going to see an electricity generating station and no doubt other works in connection with it. I think have said enough on this document, but there are a good many other statements in it which are most seriously challenged by that responsible body the Devon County Council. On the subject of
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amenities, so eloquent a plea has been made by my noble friend Lord Rockley that I need not add anything on that point, but I would not leave your Lordships in any doubt of my own feelings that this part of Dartmoor will be very seriously affected indeed, and that it is one of the loveliest places in England which it is our duty to preserve.
I would like to say a few words upon the history of the Bill. A well known water engineer has for some time had his eye upon Dartmoor as a place to be exploited. Of course a water engineer is professionally trained to regard water purely as raw material or a source of power for industrial and commercial purposes. Nothing is more repellent to the eye of a water engineer than to see a little stream gurgling down a hill. He wants to see it all piped and made to do useful work. This engineer succeeded in interesting a financial group—with Devon connections, although it was centred in London—in the expectation that they would be able to make considerable profit. This group delegated representatives to meet local authorities in North Devon and those authorities considered the problem from a purely local point of view.
They had a water problem to face. They could overcome that either by sinking wells, and Devonshire is a County in which well sinking is not a difficult operation, or by taking supplies of water from their neighbours (and supplies were in fact offered by neighbouring local authorities), or by taking water from the Taw and other rivers at a lower point. They could certainly have met the position in that way, but naturally when they were offered piped water brought to their very doors they were tempted and, it being their duty to consider only local interests, they to some extent fell in with the proposal. But three things were not considered. First there was the interest of Dartmoor. Nobody thought about the interest of Dartmoor in connection with this Bill. Then there was the interest of Devonshire. The interest of Devonshire was not considered by the promoters. It was not their business to consider that, nor was it the business of the few local authorities who supported the promoters. The interest of Devonshire was considered by the Devon County Council. Finally the interest of England in its rural heritage has, I am glad to say, been most emphatically considered by societies concerned.

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I was astonished to hear the statement of my noble friend Lord Eltisley. If I did not misunderstand him he seemed to doubt whether the Council for the Preservation of Rural England were genuinely opposed to this Bill. If I understood him correctly he suggested that their objections had been met. The noble Lord cannot have read the paper circulated to your Lordships, I think the day before yesterday, headed: "Reasons in opposition to the Bills." That document concludes:
"For the above reasons the societies interested in the protection of open spaces and amenities in general and of Dartmoor in particular are united in their opposition to the Bills, which they trust may not be allowed to pass into law."
Can that mean anything at all but that the societies are very strongly opposed to the Bills and would wish that they should be rejected on Second Reading? The societies are the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, 4, Hobart Place, London, the Commons, Open Spaces and Footpaths Preservation Society, 71, Eccleston Square, Westminster, the Dartmoor Preservation Association, 32, Thornhill Road, Plymouth, and the Devon Branch of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, 25, Southernhay West, Exeter. In view of this document, which has been circulated to your Lordships, I am at a loss to understand what my noble friend can mean by his reference to the societies.
Now I would say one word about the rural needs and the water problem. My own belief, and it is also the belief of the Devon County Council, which may be presumed to know a great deal about the matter, is that the problem can be solved by local methods. Each parish, by bestirring itself a little, can obtain for itself the water which it needs. But if that is not the case, then I suggest that the proper course is to ask the Ministry of Health to make a local inquiry and to relate that local inquiry to some national water scheme. A local inquiry would, if affairs are as alleged by the promoters, be of considerable value. The members would have facilities for inquiring into this problem on the spot with a great deal more readiness and ease than can a Committee sitting upstairs in this House. They can form unbiased conclusions, and there will be no suspicion that pecuniary benefit will be received as a result of their researches by anyone other than the
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local authorities concerned. If, then, this problem has attained such a degree of magnitude, I put forward very strongly the suggestion that a local inquiry is the proper means of dealing with the matter.
We come next to the petition of the Devon County Council—a very able document. There is sitting behind me a member of the Devon County Council, and his face was a study when Lord Eltisley remarked that he did not regard the Devon County Council petition as a hostile petition. If Lord Eltisley does not regard the exceedingly damaging assertions made in the North Devonshire petition as hostile, I should indeed like to know what his measure of hostility can be. If he considers that the Devon County Council are merely dissembling their love for the Bill, let me point out some of the allegations which the County Council are bringing. They deny entirely the financial soundness of the scheme. They suggest that the promoters will not in fact receive adequate remuneration, far less the considerable dividend of 10 per cent. upon the ordinary capital which they appear to anticipate. The Council point out that Northern Devon is a rural area with a sparse population and that a sufficient number of customers will not be forthcoming. They hint that they want to keep Northern Devon a rural area and maintain the population as predominately rural. They question the estimates, and they make it fairly clear that they regard the whole scheme as a speculation. In particular, they criticise very strongly the immense borrowing powers which are a feature of the Bill.
They go on to say that if, in spite of the very cogent arguments they adduce, the Preamble is held to be proved by the Committee, they suggest certain very drastic protective clauses which they would demand in their interest. That, of course, is a common feature with Private Bills. The petition itself is completely hostile and I believe that the position of the Devon County Council ought to have, and will have, very great weight with your Lordships. Devonshire enjoys an extremely progressive administration, and they are the last people to oppose a scheme out of mere blind conservatism. There are a number of other petitioners—eight in all—against the scheme, and I will not go into each one of those petitions, though I will mention the very

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pathetic petition of the Belstone commoners, who are in danger of their livelihood being taken away from them. They have two sources of livelihood: the pasturage of their beasts and the summer visitors whom they entertain in their farms and cottages. I cannot help wondering whether there is not a great deal more behind this Bill than appears at first sight. I find it difficult to believe that these great engineering works, this dam, these tunnellings through Belstone Tor, this electrical generating station, are really designed solely to meet the needs of North Devon as it is at present, a predominantly rural area with a few small factories in some of the urban districts. As for electricity, I am in a position to tell the House that there is amply sufficient electricity in Devonshire and that if more is required there are many other ways of generating it quite as cheaply, if not more cheaply than by the undertaking of these vast works. North Devon, when I was down there last, was buzzing with rumours. We heard that there were to be munition factories at this town; that efforts were being made to attract industries of another character to that place. Everybody seemed to have a different story, and I should not wonder if this Bill, which provides for the generating of large quantities of commercial water and of electricity, appeared to fit most naturally into some projected scheme of large-scale industrialisation.
A few weeks ago it was decided in another place not to give further consideration to a measure which was aimed at the industrialisation of part of the Highlands. There did seem to me to be a case for the tentative industrialisation of that part of the Highlands, but I submit that there is no case whatever for any further industrialisation of North Devon and, moreover, that it is clearly contrary to the national interests. I ask your Lordships, in rejecting the Second Reading of this Bill, not only to save the petitioners—the Devonshire ratepayers and a number of other people, many of them very humble folk—from the heavy expense of a long Committee stage, during which they will feel bound to oppose the Bill to the uttermost, but I ask you to make a decision of principle to save the natural beauties of Devonshire and to maintain the rural character of the
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northern part of the County beyond any doubt whatever.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, I am going to ask you to allow me to say a few words, because I also have a Motion down for the rejection of this Bill. I ask you to listen for a moment to what I am going to say, because since I was a child I have known all that part of the country with which this Bill deals and have walked over every foot of it all my life. I know every inch of it. When I saw this Bill I looked at it most carefully. I read it, and I read it again and again, and I put my head in my hands and wondered what on earth it meant. Finally I came to the conclusion that there was only one thing that it could mean: that it was a Bill to put money into the pockets of the promoters and to do no sort of benefit to any other soul in the world. I have never seen such a Bill and, knowing the country, I cannot conceive who was the idiot who ever produced it.
Just see where you are. Your first proposition is that you want to get water. I am not dealing with the Electricity Bill although it has been coupled with the Water Bill. I should have thought that if there were to be electricity in North Devon it might be left to the Committee which is dealing with the whole of the grid system over England from the Government point of view, instead of given to a private enterprise. But I am dealing with the Water Bill and the Water Bill only. The first thing you have is this: you are going to have a dam at Belstone in order to keep the water of the Taw there and use it for power. Very good. The number of times that I have walked up from Belstone to Taw Head at the top of the valley, along the dry bed of the Taw, are more numerous than I can count on the fingers of a dozen hands. You do not get water there. What people have apparently not realised is that the northern part of Dartmoor is a solid block of granite, and there are no springs. You rely for water entirely on the rainfall. If you get rain you get water. If you get no rain you get no water. Who on earth could have conceived the idea of running commercial power plant when you do not know perhaps for three months whether you will have any power at all, because there no rain? It is perfectly hopeless. That is the Taw. It has been spoken of as Taw Marsh, but it is not a marsh at all.

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The noble Earl was wrong, and it is a very important point, the artillery camp is not at Belstone Common at all, but at the Black-a-ven Valley. When the artillery fires the farmers have to get their cattle and sheep out of that valley, and the only place they can drive them to is Taw Marsh. If it is filled up as a lake they will have no place to which to go. That is the beautiful Taw. You do not get any water and it is proposed to do away with the amenities that these small farmers must have. That is point one.
Now as to point number two, which is Black-a-ven, the second source of supply. From the age of nine I used to jump over it at its widest place. I hold in my hand an ordnance map of Dartmoor. On the outside is a very pretty picture. It is a picture of Black-a-ven at its widest point and in spate. If your Lordships have the slightest doubt whether you ought to vote for the Second Reading of this Bill I would like you to look at this picture and realise that that is the second source of water supply proposed for North Devon. If you look in the Bill you will find that it joins with East Okement at Cullever Steps. That is the place where the ground has become flat, and consequently the two rivers, when they come together, are spread out and are perhaps fifteen yards across. Cullever Steps are flat stones put on the bed of the river for the purpose of a crossing, and the depth of the water is about one inch and not more. That is the place where you are, going to get a waterfall for your plant! Black-a-ven and East Okement present another and rather serious difficulty which is not met by the Bill at all. They are going to turn into the Taw water that normally speaking goes into the Torridge. Hen is a big objection of Okehampton. On the lower side the town is fed by the West Okement, a much bigger water, but the West Okement is at a low level. It cannot feed the higher part of the town which takes its water entirely from the Black-a-ven and East Okement. There is nothing suggested in the Bill that is going to be done, and can you therefore wonder that Okehampton is protesting bitterly against this Bill going through? It is a hopeless Bill, and one which never ought to be passed.
There is one last thing which I want to say. I hope your Lordships will destroy this Bill on the Second Reading,
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and I will tell you why. It is a very important point. The people who are going to be ruined by this Bill are the small farmers in the Belstone district and the districts around. They know that if this Bill passes they have got to give up; that they could not carry on their farms if their grazing country was destroyed for them. It is a poor country. They do very well in a small way, but they cannot possibly carry on if their grazing country is taken from them. Furthermore, I know this country. I have known it all my life. I have had letter after letter from these people telling me that they have not the means to come up to London, to wait about, in order to appear and give evidence before a Committee. I ask your Lordships to say that they ought not to be put into that position in regard to a Bill which is so hopeless as this ill-considered Bill—that they Aught not to be put into a position, where they are going to lose what is vital to them, and which means everything in life to them, of having to satisfy a Committee that they are right in the end. Why not say now, as I ask your Lordships to say, that this Bill ought not to go through, but ought to be here and now defeated as an ill-considered measure? I beg to support the rejection of the Bill.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I think it is usual when a Bill of this kind is before your Lordships and you are asked in powerful speeches to reject the Bill, that I, or anyone who occupies the position which your Lordships have done me the honour to entrust to me, should say a few words on the matter. Lord Rockley asked whether it is the invariable practice to give a Second Reading to Private Bills. I have my own recollection, going back to the time of the War, and I can tell him that since the War there have only been two occasions on which Bills have been rejected on Second Reading. One was the Croydon Bill, which would have done away with certain ancient buildings known as the Whitgift Almshouses. Lord Donoughmore, who occupied the position which I now hold, advised your Lordships that every opportunity should be given in Committee for consideration of the Bill, but your Lordships decided to reject it. The next Bill was the Stoke-on-Trent Extension Bill. That received a similar fate.

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It was rejected. On the same occasion my noble friend suggested that every opportunity should be given for consideration in Committee. As a matter of fact that Bill was a good deal modified, and I believe accepted by your Lordships next year on Second Reading—whether it got through the Committee stage or not I cannot remember. Those are the two occasions on which your Lordships have decided to reject Bills on Second Reading in the last twenty years or so.
LORD ROCKLEY: May I ask a question: If you send a Bill to Committee do you not increase the law and other costs?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: If you send it up to Committee you increase the law costs enormously. Of course, if the Bill goes to a Committee and counsel and witnesses are employed, counsel and witnesses' expenses will have to be met. I think that everybody will agree that the Committees of your Lordships' House are, without exception, as fine tribunals, as painstaking tribunals as can be found anywhere in this country. They give every opportunity to promoters and petitioners to state their case, and to receive the utmost and most patient consideration. Your Committees are, however, but Committees of your Lordships' House. Your Lordships as a House never lose control of a Bill. Until your Lordships have passed the Motion that the Bill do pass, that Bill is entirely within your control to do what you wish with it.
I admit that it is a matter of the utmost rarity to reject the finding of the Committee. Indeed, although I know it has occurred, it has not occurred during the time that I have been a member of your Lordships' House, and I regret to say that it is now more than twenty-five years since I first took my seat here. I have never known a case. But I think that the reason why your Lordships are so strongly inclined, or so invariably inclined, to follow the advice of Committees is not that their opinions are necessarily sacrosanct, but that you have such a great respect for their judgment. Committees very often reject Bills on the ground that the Preamble is not proved. Again, they accept Amendments where clauses are objectionable, and they reject those matters which possibly have not found favour with your Lordships, or
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they amend them and render them less objectionable and more to your Lordships' taste. Again when matters are threshed out by counsel and witnesses—of course at the expense of the parties—the difficulties which may have seemed insurmountable before are shown to be capable of being got over. So I think that is the reason why your Lordships ate always so ready to accept the decision of your Committees. But, as I said before, your Lordships are always able on Third Reading to reject a Bill in exactly the same manner as you can on Second Reading.
I have been through these two Bills. I do not find in them anything which is contrary to precedent. I mean the clauses are not contrary to the precedents. I think they are all founded on clauses which have passed your Lordships' House before. But there is one point, and this is a very important one, to which I do not think any member of your Lordships' House who has yet spoken has addressed himself. I think that this Bill introduces a new principle. It is—and I have made very careful search—a new principle for your Lordships' House to accept that an outside group should enter an area and develop it for the benefit of that area, which is in fact what this Bill seeks to do. Analogous cases have been brought before your Lordships' House before, but I do not think there has been a case in regard to water. There was a Bill some y ears ago known as the Thames Wharf Bill. That was a Bill of a similar kind. An outside group came down to build a port somewhere on the Thames. That Bill was given a Second Reading by your Lordships, but it was subsequently rejected by the Committee, I do not know on what grounds, but very possibly on the ground that the principle which I have described to your Lordships was not accepted. So, while I think that this is an entirely new principle as regards water, I think that is a matter which requires the very earnest consideration of your Lordships' House.
I do not know whether you consider that the principle of an extraneous group coming into an area to develop it is a good one or not. It may in your Lordships' view be a good principle; it may be useful and beneficial to the area. In that case, whether this particular scheme is or is not a satisfactory one would seem

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in my humble opinion to be a matter which can be judged by the Committee. My noble friend Lord Eltisley has drawn attention to the fact that the County Council has petitioned against the scheme. That petition which in the same way could and would be presented to the Committee, would be carefully adjudicated on by that Committee. Similarly, if your Lordships think that the principle is a right one, the details of the scheme would be equally considered and dealt with by the Committee. But if your Lordships consider that it is wrong that an extraneous group should come down arid develop that area, then it would seem to me to be scarcely right to allow the promoters and petitioners to go to the expense of a battle. Those are the matters on which your Lordships' decision is very important.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I ask whether the principle which the noble Earl has just stated, with regard to an outside company coming into an area to develop its water facilities, would apply in the case of electricity or gas, or whether the noble Earl referred only to water?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I have been into the matter. I will not say I have examined every case that has been brought before your Lordships, but I cannot find a precedent for a case of this kind except in the Thames Wharf Bill, and I cannot find any precedent in regard to water. That is the result of researches made in my Department.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: Does the noble Earl consider the fact that there is no water to be had in this area a matter of principle or a matter of detail?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I think it is a matter to consider whether there is or is not water on Dartmoor. I have been there and found a great deal of water there, far too much for my taste.
LORD CHARNWOOD: May I ask the noble Earl a further question? He referred to the case of the Stoke-on-Trent Bill, which was thrown out on Second Reading in your Lordships' House. I understood him to say that substantially the same Bill was afterwards introduced into this House and was carried. I was very much interested in that question, and I have the strongest impression that
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the noble Earl is in some error. Will be tell me whether he is sure?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I do not think I stated that it was exactly the same Bill. I said another Bill dealing with the same matter, but, as your Lordships passed it, it could not have been the same Bill, because your Lordships do not change your minds.
LORD CHARNWOOD: Then may I be allowed to question very much the fairness of the description "dealing with the same matter"? That Bill was rejected on Second Reading by your Lordships' House on the broad ground that it incorporated in Stoke an adjacent borough and an adjacent urban area against the will of those districts, and certainly that decision, which was the important and interesting point dealt with on that occasion, to my certain knowledge has not been reversed.
LORD AMULREE: I am afraid I did not quite follow the point that the Lord Chairman made as to an outside group forming themselves into a company to promote a water scheme to develop a particular area. Surely there are many water companies throughout the country which have formed themselves into a group and supplied water to such an area and obtained Parliamentary powers for that purpose. Is not this the same case here?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I do not think it is. So far as I can see from the searches I have made of Bills which have been brought before your Lordships' House, they have been Bills promoted largely by the local authorities. For instance, a public utility company might formally promote a Bill, but generally the initiative comes from local authorities and the local residents. So far as I can see, the principle of this Bill is a new one. I may be wrong, but I do not think I am.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I do not wish on behalf of the Government to try to influence your Lordships one way or the other in arriving at a conclusion as to whether the arguments put forward justify the throwing out of this Bill. We are aware of course that the interests of amenity and various public services frequently conflict, and except for remarking that it is very often difficult to judge between these merits without very

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extensive knowledge of local conditions, I have nothing to say on that particular aspect of the Bill. My object in intervening is simply to enter one word of caution on behalf of the Ministry of Health on a purely technical matter. We are satisfied that there is an urgent need for piped water supplies in these areas. We are further satisfied, in spite of what has been said by my noble friend Lord Halsbury, that this is a feasible scheme and one which, if carried out, would meet the demand and serve the existing needs of the district, which comprises most of the county areas of Mid and North Devon. If, on the other hand, these powers are obtained and the work is not carried out, we believe that the effect might be to hamper the provision of public water supplies, because the local authorities would hesitate to proceed with alternative schemes if these powers are in existence. The powers sought are somewhat unusual. I might perhaps add to what was said by my noble friend the Lord Chairman in answer to Lord Amulree. I think the unusual part of this Bill is the provision of water in bulk to local authorities. So far as I can see, there is no duty laid on the promoters to supply water to anybody, either to local authorities or to residents. We feel it is necessary, in view of the somewhat unusual nature of this Bill, to make this point at this stage, but beyond that I have nothing to add.
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, having listened to the arguments for and against this proposal and having also read very carefully the circulars which have been issued, and also having seen the pictures in the Library and having had some experience in connection with the establishment of reservoirs in moorland districts promoted by water boards which have been quite independent of local authorities, I am satisfied that where there is a local demand for water—and apparently there is some local demand for water here—it is the custom of your Lordships' House invariably to send a Bill of this kind up to a Committee where the most competent tribunal of your Lordships that can be found for the purpose hear the whole of the evidence as to whether there is an adequate water supply, whether the amenities are properly looked after, whether the compensation is adequate to protect the farming
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interests affected, and where the question of whether there is a real case for a Bill of this kind can be thrashed out on its merits. I have listened to the arguments for and against, and it is not for me to decide these, but I consider it is for a Committee upstairs to decide them. I hope these Bills will therefore go before a Committee, where they will be considered on their merits, that all parties interested, including the County Council, will state their cases before the Committee and that we shall get a report from an independent tribunal.
LORD ASKWITH: My Lords, I thoroughly agree with my noble friend in the remarks he has just made. After listening very carefully to what has been said by the three noble Lords who are objecting to the Bill this, it seems to me, is eminently a case which ought to be examined by a Committee. Any difference of opinion between noble Lords and Lord Eltisley can then be decided upon evidence that can be sifted and not by statements made by individual Peers in this House as to rumours of industrialisation in North Devon or statements that there is no water to be got out of the River Taw, which other people call the Taw Marsh. I do not want to go into the facts of the case, because that is really a matter for a judicial tribunal, but I think this is a case which ought to be examined by a Committee in the usual way. With regard to the last remarks of the Lord Chairman that there is no precedent, apparently, for a Water B ill being promoted by outside persons, and that therefore that principle should be refused by this House, that would be a strong order for the House to take. Devon County Council are said to be strong opponents of the Bill. If they are, they will have examined the financial provisions of the Bill, and if the financial position of the promoters, contrary to what they themselves say, is found to be too weak to carry forward of scheme of this kind, then the Committee will naturally say the Bill ought not to proceed. I shall naturally vote in favour of Lord Eltisley's Motion.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, having had at one period of my life a very considerable experience in the Committee rooms upstairs, and in spite of my natural prejudice in favour of promoting litigation in these rooms,

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I do not think this is a Bill that ought to be accepted on Second Reading by your Lordships' House. The reason I take that view I can state in a very few words. Here, we are told, is a great possession of the country—Dartmoor. Everybody knows it is. It is threatened by a scheme which is promoted, not by any public authority, but by those who propose to make money, perfectly legitimately, out of the scheme. It seems to me that there are parties to this controversy much greater and much more important than the County of Devon. The whole country is a party to this controversy. We have to consider whether we will sanction an injury to a great possession of the country. I do not think that ought to be done at the request of a company which is acting from motives of private gain. If it was a scheme promoted by a great local authority who said that in the interests of the locality it was essential that it should be done, that would be a strong case, but I do not think anything less than that ought to justify your Lordships in passing a Bill of this kind.
LORD BAYFORD: My Lords, I want to say just a word, if I might be allowed, from the County Council point of view. I happen to be Chairman of the Council of a neighbouring county to Devon. As the Chairman of Committees has said, this is a new precedent, and it is a precedent against which I want to protest as one who is interested in local government. If it is going to be the customary practice in future that private enterprise should be able to bring forward public utility schemes of this sort, and to bring them forward against the wishes and in spite of the opposition of the local authorities, then you put the local authorities in a very much more difficult position than they have ever been put in before. It is a precedent that I do not want to see established and, in the interests of local government, I want to take this opportunity of protesting against it.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, may I say a few words in reply to statements that have been made in regard to a joint board? I wish to point out that it was long considered whether there should not be a joint board consisting of the county council and the various local authorities to promote a scheme of this kind. That was under consideration for a number of years. I understand that the county
926
council was willing, and that several local authorities were willing, but that certain other local authorities, who were anxious to get water, did not wish to join a joint board because they did not want to incur the debt which would have been incurred by their doing so. They said that they would much rather obtain water through some means such as those proposed by the promoters of this Bill. In regard to what has been said about the promoters, I would point out that they are public-spirited men and women of Devonshire and not outsiders. They are local people whose parishes are without water, and the failure to secure a joint board such as I have indicated left them with this, scheme as the only means of obtaining the water they desire. Whilst thoroughly agreeing with the principle of a joint board composed of the county council and local authorities, these unfortunate people living in rural parishes were unable to afford the expense of obtaining a supply of water by means of a joint board.
It has been said that those responsible for issuing the circular which has been referred to are private persons who are promoting the Bill for their own objects. If that means that they are promoting it for their own profit, then it is a great mistake to say that. It is untrue. But that is a matter which can be determined by the Committee upstairs. I only wish to say, in answer to the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, that this Bill is promoted simply because there has been a failure to form a joint board with the local authorities. The Bill itself is quite straight-forward and simple. It means simply this, that where local authorities have an inadequate supply of water, this company shall be in a position to supply them with water, or, where there is no supply of water at all, then the local authority, with the assistance of the supply company, shall be able to get a supply. Power is also taken in the Bill in certain cases to supply to distributors if the local authority is willing to distribute and if its locality is without any supply of water at all. That can only be done through the Provisional Order which is provided in the Bill and not otherwise. Thus you have in the first place this simple case of the company supplying water in bulk, which it can do with great efficiency, and in the second place, at a later date, if the local authority does not supply water required by a

927
particular rural parish or area in its district, then this company may obtain a Provisional Order for that purpose. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Reading.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, I only want to refer to one statement which was made by the noble Lord who has just sat down. I cannot accept that statement. He said the promoters of this Bill were all local people. I absolutely deny it. I know where their properties are and they are nowhere near Dartmoor.
LORD AMULREE: Their properties are in Devonshire.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: Yes, but in entirely different parts of Devonshire, and nowhere near this area.
LORD ELTISLEY: My Lords, as I have the right to reply, I would, by the courtesy of your Lordships, say one more word. May I express my thanks to those who have objected to the Bill for the way in which they have put their side of the case? I endeavoured to meet most of the objections in my opening speech,
Resolved in the negative, and Motion disagreed to. Bill to be read 2a this day six months accordingly.
but I am grateful to those who have been good enough to put their side so courteously against mine. There are just one or two points that I would like to make. The noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, has challenged the engineering side, and has said that there is practically no water. Engineers of great eminence have assured the promoters of the scheme that there will be a daily average flow of 13,500,000 gallons available for the purposes of the scheme after ample compensation water has been taken. Another point raised was the question of local groups promoting schemes of this kind. I happen to reside in a district where an outside group cane in and provided me—and I have never ceased thanking them for doing so—with ample supplies of electricity. May I, in conclusion, quote the statement of the noble Viscount, Lord Gage, who, speaking on behalf of the Ministry, said that the Department was satisfied that there was an urgent need of piped water and that this scheme would serve that need.
On Question, Whether the word "now" shall stand part of the Motion?
Their Lordships divided: —Contents, 24; Not-Contents, 48.

CONTENTS

Devonport, V.

Blythswood, L.

Grimthorpe, L.

Elibank, V.

Catto, L.

Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)

Mersey, V.

Clwyd, L.

Ker, L. (M. Lothian.)

Cochrane of Cults, L.

Lamington, L.

Addington, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Mount Temple, L.

Amulree, L. [Teller.]

Eltisley, L. [Teller.]

Newton, L.

Askwith, L.

Forteviot, L.

O'Hagan, L.

Bethell, L.

Gainford, L.

Saltoun, L.

Teynham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Halifax, V. (L. Privy Seal.)

Winchester, L. Bp.

Jessel, L.

Lawrence, L.

Dufferin and Ava, M.

Bayford, L.

Mancroft, L.

Zetland, M.

Carrington, L.

Marks, L.

Charnwood, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Halsbury, E.

Clanwilliam, L. (E Clanwilliam.)

Redesdale, L.

Iddesleigh, E. [Teller.]

Rennell, L.

Lucan, E.

Denman, L.

Rockley, L. [Teller.]

Midleton, E.

Dudley, L.

St. Just, L.

Munster, E.

Ellenborough, L.

St. Levan, L.

Fairlie, L. (E. Glasgow.)

Sandhurst, L.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Fermanagh, L. (E. Erne.)

Stonehaven, L.

Cecil of Chelwood, V.

Gifford, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Chaplin, V.

Gorell, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Hampton, L.

Exmouth, V.

Harris, L.

Templemore, L.

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.)

Wardington, L.

Hereford, V.

Hutchison of Montiose, L.

Windlesham, L.

NORTH DEVON ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
LORD ELTISLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Eltisley.)
On Question, Motion negatived.

NORTH METROPOLITAN ELECTRIC POWER SUPPLY BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
GENERAL CEMETERY BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
GRIMSBY CORPORATION (GRIMSBY AND DISTRICT WATER, ETC.) BILL.
Read 2a, and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
COUNTY COUNCILS ASSOCIATION EXPENSES (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
SHEEP STOCKS VALUATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
COAL MINES (EMPLOYMENT OF BOYS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
LONDON AND NORTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
LONDON, MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
SOUTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
BARKING CORPORATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
CARDIFF EXTENSION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
SHEFFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
WANDSWORTH AND DISTRICT GAS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
WEST HAM CORPORATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

KINGSTON UPON HULL PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: My Lords, I do not think I need detain your Lordships very long in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to continue for another ten years the special powers which have been in force in Hull since 1907, to deal with the keeping of obscene or indecent prints or pictures. As your Lordships are aware, the Port of Hull has a large trade with the Continent, and the evil of pornographic prints and pictures was apparently very great until these powers were given to the City in 1907. Since then, however, I am sure owing to those powers, the trade has practically ceased, and I therefore feel no doubt that your Lordships will be anxious to give this Bill a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Dufferin and Ava.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed.

FOOD SUPPLIES.
LORD CATTO LORD CATTO rose to ask His Majesty's Government what consideration is being given to the question of overseas food supplies in the light of experience in the Great War and the generally known fact that domestic food supplies would not be nearly sufficient to meet the needs of the population of o this country in any emergency.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to speak on this Motion with considerable diffidence and indeed with anxiety. This is the first time I have addressed your Lordships' House and I do so now hoping for your indulgence and even your patience, although I shall endeavour so to condense my argument as to trespass as little as possible upon your Lordships' time. I have been encouraged to address your Lordships this afternoon for two reasons. The first is the grave importance of this question of overseas food supply, which I think is inadequately understood in the country. The second reason is this. I feel that my acceptance of membership of your Lordships' House carries with it not only a duty but a real obligation to take part in your deliberations and when possible, as happens to-day, to speak on questions on which I may have some special or expert knowledge and experience. It so happens that in that anxious and critical period of the Great War in 1917 and 1918, when the question of food supplies assumed such alarming proportions that, in the words of the late Lord Reading, "the issue of the War hung as much upon food as upon men and munitions," I had the privilege to be first a director and later Chairman of the Allied Provisions Export Commission and head of the British Ministry of Food in the United States and in Canada. I hope, therefore, that I may claim with some right the special knowledge and experience to which I have just alluded.
These organisations had the responsibility of buying all kinds of food supplies in the United States and in Canada with the exception of wheat and sugar, which were under Royal Commissions and dealt with by separate organisations. As a matter of fact, however, in that crisis period it was not a shortage of wheat or cereals that made the position so serious; it was a shortage of other essential food
932
supplies and in particular of bacon, ham, lard, frozen beef, cheese, preserved meats, butter and so forth. These were the articles that were in short supply. We know now that what initiated the break-up of the Central Powers was their inability to obtain just these very essential food supplies to which I have alluded. Were I to disclose to you the tonnage and the monetary value of the food suplies which it was essential in that critical period to import into this country, they would, I think, surprise you. Those figures I have here before me in a report which I made at the time and which I hold at the disposal of His Majesty's Government lest the original in the lapse f time has become lost in some Government Department. Even after this lapse of time, however, I think it would not be wise in the public interest to disclose these figures, and it will be sufficient for the purpose of my argument if you will be so kind as to accept my statement that the total was immense and would, I am tire, astonish anyone not fully acquainted with the situation that existed at that time.
Is it not likely—indeed, is it not almost certain—that a similar situation would arise again in the event of an emergency and vast quantities of food supplies would be required from overseas countries? That being so, then is it not probable—indeed, is it not almost certain—that a large proportion of those essential supplies must come from the United States and from Canada, as they did in the Great War? It may be wondered why these two countries in particular assume such special importance. The answer is, firstly, that they are the countries which can quickly make the essential supplies available, and secondly, that the strain and the drain upon shipping in an emergency becomes enormous and it becomes necessary to draw our supplies as much as possible form the nearest sources. The importance of this is emphasised by the fact that, as your Lordships will recollect, quite recently my noble friend Lord Essendon explained to us that the tonnage of British shipping to-day is less than it was in 1914. I shall no doubt be reminded that much may be accomplished by improvement and increase in our domestic resources. I do not underestimate this possibility, and I hope that much will be done and that the increase will be great and permanent. In another

933
place Mr. Lloyd George, with that gift of expression for which he is famous, has referred to what he called the "food front." He was dealing mainly with the urgent need of increasing and improving our domestic food resources, but no one knows better than he does—because he was Prime Minister at the time of crisis to which I have already alluded—that even were this country producing the maximum of domestic supplies it would still be necessary to import large quantities of essential food from overseas.
I hope I have said enough to indicate that even under the most favourable circumstances of home production there must of necessity be large imports, and I also hope I have given you logical reasons why at any rate a large proportion of these imports must come from the United States and from Canada. If that is so, I should like to ask His Majesty's Government what consideration has been given or is being given to this aspect of the country's defences, and whether they are in touch with men who in the Great War dealt with these special food problems at home and overseas; and in particular I should like to ask whether they are in communication with the Government of Canada. For your Lordships will remember that in 1918 the Canada Food Board, under the distinguished chairmanship of a great Canadian, my friend Mr. H. B. Thomson, rendered conspicuous aid to the Allied cause by making available from Canada the maximum of exportable food supplies.
I ask you to remember that food cannot be obtained overseas, or anywhere else, unless there is the wherewithal to pay for it, and that brings me to the problem of finance. It will be within your Lordships' recollection that in the first part of the Great War money to pay for essential supplies of all kinds from the United States was raised through ordinary financial channels by means of loans from the American public. I am happy to say that all those obligations have been met, and met most meticulously, and that to-day they are almost entirely paid off. But in the later purl: of the War other debts were incurred in regard to which the record is not quite so happy. I think that I can best describe the latter as intergovernmental loans. These obligations were incurred after America had entered the War, and at a time when our own
934
credit in the United States had become practically exhausted. It would have been impossible at that juncture to raise further loans from the American public. But the United States Government, without hesitation, opened their purse strings most generously, and put at the disposal of the Allied Governments vast sums of money which were spent in the purchase of food and other essential supplies.
This brings me perilously near to the vexed question of War Debts. But that is delicate ground, entirely outside the scope of this speech, and I have no intention of treading on it. It is necessary, however, to refer to it, because it has a bearing on the financial aspect of the problem I am discussing. Although the credit of this country, to-day, stands high and unchallenged in the money markets of the world, it would not be possible, in an emergency, again to raise money by means of loans from the American public, as was done in the first part of the Great War. The reason is that, as many of your Lordships must be aware, there exists at present an Act of Congress, known as the Johnson Act, which debars Governments in default on inter-governmental War loans to the United States from raising loans of any kind in that country. I would therefore remind His Majesty's Government that did an emergency arise finance must be an urgent problem of overseas food supplies, and especially so far as the United States are concerned. We all hope such emergency will not arise. It is impossible to conceive another outrage on humanity such as that of 1914–1918. But if in the present unsettled state of the world His Majesty's Government consider it necessary to be prepared—I do not deny that, perhaps, preparation is the surest means of commanding respect for peace and the democratic ideals of our people—then I hope that this debate may be useful to the extent of emphasising that in the long chain of the Empire's defences perhaps the most vital link is the nation's food supply.
I have nearly finished. I hope I have fulfilled my promise not to trespass unduly upon your Lordships' time or patience. I have tried, perhaps inadequately, but at any rate with great sincerity, to explain in the light of experience certain aspects of the problems of food supplies that become acute in an emergency. May I conclude with just

935
these words? I do not need to remind you of the spirit and endurance of our people, but there is one trial above all others that must not be put upon them. If the spectre of hunger begins to stalk the land, and the children to cry for food, then indeed the spirit even of a great people will bend and perhaps break. I have told you already that this actually happened in enemy countries in the Great War. We were dangerously near to it ourselves in 1917–1918. God grant we may never again be so near to such a calamity.
THE LORD BISHOP OF NORWICH: My Lords, I am sure that you will agree with me that we have been very fortunate to listen to so well chosen a maiden speech. The noble Lord who has just sat down told us that he had never spoken here before, and that he was unaware of the ways of your Lordships' House. I can only say that he struck me as quite an expert in such matters, and I hope he will never alter his style. The world is getting smaller, and one cannot help paying considerable attention to the last three lines of the Question of the noble Lord. He directs our attention to the home or domestic food supplies, and I do not think that any reply to this Question will be satisfactory which does not, at least to some extent, travel over that ground. Certainly we should be very glad that in recent years we have been able to discuss the home food supplies with far greater sympathy than was possible in years gone by. It is not many years since the townsman and the countryman were ranged on different sides in any question of this sort. Now we are all sympathetic. The townsman is well aware that it is of importance that every possible contribution should be made to our food supplies from domestic sources.
There is one advantage in that, because. I suppose no industry is more ready to help the Government and the State than the great industry of agriculture, which in itself presents a very united front. Owners, masters and men are agreed to do all they can to allow each to make his best offer of service. And if it is true that Death Duties may to some extent prevent our great landlords from doing the best they could, nevertheless their heart is still in the country, and they know that they have our confidence. There can be no question that in that great corn
936
district from which I come, in East Anglia, the wheat quota and the system of payments has been of great advantage to the industry. Nevertheless it is, I think, generally felt that there is not sufficient stability in the whole outlook for the future. Farmers are not able to go forward with certainty, and the chops and changes from which they have suffered have to some extent disheartened them in their work. But of this your Lordships may be quite certain, that in their local patriotism they have a strong desire to do all that they possible can, a id the Government can rely upon their using their resources to the very best of their ability.
Years ago I was a pupil of Mr. Ernest Fretyman, a name which is still a name to conjure with I hope in the country, and certainly in East Anglia. He once wrote:
"At a very low estimate we could produce £100,000,000 worth of food which we are now importing, and to do that we should require equipment that would absorb a large industrial output."
I know that a good deal of water has flowed under London Bridge since then and that the situation is not as simple as it was when he wrote those words. Agreements must be respected. But we ask the question whether they must be renewed in just the same form. Certainly the picture which the noble Lord drew of the possibility of war brings before us the idea that if war comes you upset everything. It will not be a question then of economics or bargaining, it will be a question of life itself, and I believe that v re have to make our plans now with that heavy responsibility lying over us in the future.
I may add before I sit down that if the reply of the Government is such as to stimulate a little further the farming industry in the country we shall all gain something more than the prospect of more f god. I suppose it is only those of us who lve in the country who know the low ebb which some parts of our farming industry I as reached. There are many things which are not absolutely essential which would have been very much improved if more attention had been given to them. I am thinking of the retention of men: of clearings and drainage systems which give a benefit to the whole countryside; I am thinking of the deterioration in many respects of our

937
rural economy; I am thinking of the way in which we all feel that our rural stock should be kept at its best.
It is not often that attention paid to one item in a national issue carries with it so great advantages in other respects at the same time. People seem to be divided on the question of instruments of destruction and upon some of the plans that provision against war must involve, but no one could raise any objection to a scheme which would be of the greatest importance in war-time and also precious in the time of peace. It is a constructive scheme, and it is a scheme that carries in it the seeds of much good besides the mere provision of food to meet the emergency of war-time. There are many of us who would be grateful if the Government in their reply would tell as a little more about their arrangements for home production, and we bear in mind that when we hear to-day a good deal said about the storage of grain in the country we have a precedent for that from a very long time ago. Joseph was the first person who stored grain, and if you remember, his plan was for storing the home-grown product.
VISCOUNT DEVONPORT: My Lords, I ask your indulgence for one who addresses your Lordships for the first time. I have listened with interest to what the noble Lord opposite has said, and I must say he Las produced a feeling of anxiety in my mind. What in fact are the Government doing in regard to the vital question of food supplies for our people should an emergency arise? I am one of those who support the Government's plan in regard to our Defence Services, and the sooner the Government can tell us that the country and the Empire are safe against a possible aggressor the more relieved I shall feel. But people cannot live on shells and armaments, and there is a very real danger that all this fine effort may be wasted if in time of an emergency our people find themselves faced with starvation. We know that within these islands we cannot produce enough food to feed our people, and therefore we must look, as we know, to oversea supplies for our daily food. I remember very well a day in 1917 when my father, who was Food Controller for a time during the War, told me that at that moment there was not ten days' food supply in the country. Owing to the action of enemy
938
submarines our merchant ships were finding it more and more difficult to reach the ports of Great Britain. I hope the experience gained at that time at such a cost will not be wasted to-day.
It should be remembered that at the time of the War the only serious enemy destructive agents which our merchant ships had to meet were submarines. To-day we must add to that the menace of the air. How far air attack can prevent our merchant ships from reaching these shores remains to be proved when the fatal day arrives, if it ever does arrive, but I venture to think that the difficulties that our merchant fleet will have to meet when an emergency arises to-day or in the future will be far greater than in the days of the War. Therefore it seems to me very necessary that the Government should undertake the collection of supplies of food in these islands against an emergency which, in the present troubled state of Europe, may arise suddenly and without warning. In this connection I hope the Government will consider the modern use of the "can" or, as I would prefer to call it, the tin, in the preservation and storage of food and not confine themselves to cereals, however necessary they may be. We live in anxious days, and I hope the Government will not throw away the experience of the last War but that they will make such provision in time that our people will be able to meet with confidence any aggressor who may challenge us.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, at the beginning of my remarks I should like to congratulate the noble Lord who asked this Question and instigated this debate on his very excellent maiden speech, and I should like at the same time to congratulate my noble friend Lord Devonport on the speech which he has just made. I am sure we are very grateful to the two noble Lords, and we hope very much that this will not be the last time by any means that we shall hear them, but that they will often join in our debates in future. The noble Lord who opened this debate made an exceedingly interesting speech based on his experience in the Food Control Department in the late War, and told us a lot of very interesting facts. I should like first of all to deal with his Question as it is on the Paper. When we consider this

939
question of overseas food supplies, we have to consider it under three heads: First of all, the protection of shipping and ports from attacks by sea and air; secondly, the storage of food in time of peace; and thirdly, the supply and distribution of food imports in time of war.
To take these in order, I should say that the responsibility of providing the necessary protection in order that in time of war our merchant shipping can reach our ports in safety rests on the Defence Services acting in close co-operation, and one of the objects of the considerable strengthening of these Services at the present time is to enable this task to be undertaken with greater efficiency. In addition, plans are being or have been prepared for dealing with other aspects of the problem such as the use of alternative ports. It is of course a truism to say that this country cannot be self-supporting and is dependent on imports not only for more than half its foodstuffs but for large quantities of other raw materials. In fact, the noble Lord who initiated the debate and my noble friend Lord Devonport both said so in their speeches. The Government are fully alive to the vital importance of protecting our shipping and ports in time of war. These questions, in so far as they affect food supplies from overseas, are under the continuous examination of the Sub-Committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence which is dealing with the whole question of food supply in time of war. As your Lordships are aware, my right honourable friend the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence is the Chairman of this Sub-Committee, which includes among its members the professional heads of the Navy and Air Force.
As regards the second of the heads I have mentioned—namely, food storage in time of peace—this is a matter which for many months has been under close examination of His Majesty's Government. As the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence stated in the House of Commons on January 27 last, His Majesty's Government are fully aware of the advantages of storing foodstuffs for defence purposes as well as of the difficulties with which any such measures are attended, but I regret that it would not be in the public interest to make any statement on this subject at the present
940
moment. I should like to refer—the right reverend Prelate referred to it indirectly in his speech—to certain alarmist rumours which have appeared in the Press about a shortage of food supplies in the United Kingdom. These have apparently been based on a misconception of the facts. Authoritative figures are published in trade papers which show the existence of stocks amounting to a pout ten days' supply. These figures relate, however, only to wheat held in public warehouses at the ports. They take no account of millers' stocks, which are always far larger than stocks in public warehouses. A year ago the stocks of wheat and flour in the country amounted to fully three months' consumption, and there is no reason to believe that the stocks in the hands of the millers to-day are less than they were twelve months ago. It would not, however, be in the public interest to disclose precise figures at the present time, and in the circumstances I hope my noble friend and your I Lordships will excuse me from giving a more definite statement on this aspect of the question.
I turn to the third sub-head, the supply and distribution of food imports in time of war. I have to say that His Majesty's Government have for a long time devoted a great deal of consideration to this problem. So much importance do they attach to securing the uninterrupted supply of foodstuffs to meet the nation's requirements in a time of war that they decided towards the end of last year to establish what is called the Food (Defence Plans) Department of the Board of Trade. The new Department is devoting the whole of its time to these questions and the noble Lord who opened the debate may rest assured that the experience gained in the Great War is being fully utilised. Consultations have already taken place with a number of persons ho were closely associated with the work of the Ministry of Food both at headquarters and elsewhere during the years 1917–20. Others will be brought into consultation in due course, and I am authorised to say that if my noble friend would supply particulars of any persons whom he thinks could with advantage be included in these discussions his suggestions will be greatly welcomed. If he would send to me or, better still, to my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, the names of any

941
such persons, the Minister would be exceedingly pleased to receive them and would pay the greatest attention to them and to any suggestions which the noble Lord may have to make. Several food importers as well as representatives of some of the staple food industries have already given valuable assistance to the Food (Defence Plans) Department. The creation of this Department and the scope of its work may be accepted by your Lordships as evidence that His Majesty's Government fully appreciate the importance of insuring bulk supplies of all vital foodstuffs coming to this country in time of war as well as their control and distribution within the United Kingdom.
Towards the end of his speech the noble Lord, Lord Catto, referred to several financial problems and to the difficulty which I understood him to say we should have in raising money, possibly in the United States and elsewhere, in the event of another war. This is a very complicated and delicate subject, and he will not, I am sure, expect me to touch in any way on such questions as the American Debt or any such matter in this debate. I can only say—and I say it with the full authority of my noble friend behind me (Viscount Halifax) and of the Treasury—that His Majesty's Government fully recognise that finance would play a most important part in regard to food supplies from abroad in any future war, and the noble Lord may rest assured that this important aspect of the matter is not overlooked.
I turn for one moment to the very interesting speech which was made by the right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of Norwich. He asked about home food supplies. I have already, I think, replied to that part of his speech in my answer to my noble friend. I was very pleased] to hear him say that in his opinion the old division between the townsman and the countryman had now come to an end, and that we are now, as it were, thinking together. I was also very pleased as a member of the Government to hear the right reverend Prelate compliment the Government upon, and thank them for, the wheat quota. He asked what was the agricultural policy of the Government. Well, I would rather not enter into details about that now, but certain measures will come before your Lordships' House later on, and I have no doubt my noble friend Lord Feversham will be in a position then
942
to explain to your Lordships the policy of His Majesty's Government. I think I have now answered all the questions as far as I have been able. In conclusion I should like to thank my noble friend again for raising this question, which is of the very highest importance and of the greatest interest not only to your Lordships' House and to another place, but to the whole of the inhabitants of this country. I can only add that if my reply has not been as informative as my noble friend and your Lordships might have liked, it is because, as I think the House will understand, it is really contrary to the public interest to disclose plans which have been made, or are in process of being evolved, by the Cabinet and their advisers.
LORD CATTO: My Lords, may I take the opportunity of thanking the noble Lord who has just spoken and His Majesty's Government for the great courtesy with which they have replied to the Questions that I asked? I am quite satisfied. I realise that many points involved cannot be disclosed, but I do wish to thank my noble friend Lord Templemore for his great courtesy.

HYDROGEN CYANIDE (FUMIGA TION) BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. Once again I do not think I need take very much of your Lordships' time in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, because it is less than a year ago since its Second Reading was successfully moved by my noble friend Lord Feversham and, as those of your Lordships who form a quorum on these occasions usually are very restricted in number and the same, I imagine that the purposes of the Bill are familiar to most of those who are in the House to-night. The Bill, on that occasion, proved to be non-controversial, and nothing has happened since to alter the circumstances in which it will be received by your Lordships. Its purpose is to regulate the use of the gas known as hydrogen cyanide. The simple fact is that this gas is extremely useful but extremely dangerous. It is extremely useful because it is the most efficacious

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method known of exterminating bugs and other vermin, and of exterminating the pests that prey on the vegetable world. On the other hand, it is extremely dangerous because a very small quantity of it is fatal, and because the victim is usually dead before he has had any warning or has had time to realise what was coming to him. In fact, fatalities, owing to misuse of the gas, or owing to ignorance about the use of it, have occurred, and His Majesty's Government are firmly convinced that we can no longer rely solely on administrative measures, and that statutory powers are necessary to protect the public.
This Bill—I will put it very shortly—confers powers to make certain regulations about the use of this gas. The probable subject of those regulations would be the control of dangerous methods of generating the gas, the control or prevention of inexpert operation of it, the control of the disposal of the residues from the gas, and regulations concerning the use of premises during and after fumigation by the gas. As your Lordships will readily understand, these regulations would have to be
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adapted to the amount of danger involved in its use. You will notice, for instance, that in the extreme cases of the fumigation of rabbit warrens and fumigations carried out in the open air, where obviously there is little or no danger, those extreme cases are specifically exempted in the Bill. Finally, I think all I need sty is that these proposed regulations will have to be published in draft, and will be open to inspection for forty days, and that it is the intention of the Home Office that every interest will be consulted before any regulations are finally decided upon. I think that is a safeguard against any victimisation of anybody, and that your Lordships will be well advised to pass this Bill which has its counterpart in almost every other country in Europe. I am perfectly certain that if passed it will save many lives which would otherwise be lost.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Dufferin and Ava.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at twelve minutes before seven o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
[From Minutes of April 14.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Brighton, Hove and Worthing Gas, Southampton Corporation.
Also the Certificate that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petition for the following Bill:
Hastings Pier.
And also the Certificate that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petition for additional provision in the following Bill:
Dartford Tunnel [H.L.].
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

DARTFORD TUNNEL BILL. [H.L.]
PETITION FOR ADDITIONAL PROVISION.
Examiners' Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee.

LIVERPOOL UNITED HOSPITAL BILL. [H.L.]
Report from His Majesty's Attorney-General received and ordered to lie on the Table.
BATH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
NEWCASTLE-UNDER-LYME CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
GRIMSBY CORPORATION (GRIMSBY AND DISTRICT WATER, ETC.) BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the five Lords appointed a Select Committee on the Woodhall Spa Urban District Council Bill [H.L.] and other Bills do form the Select Committee for the Consideration of Grimsby Corporation (Grimsby and District Water, etc.) Bill: Read, and agreed to. All Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bill.

LEEDS GAS ORDER, 1937.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Lord Mayor, aldermen and citizens of the City of Leeds:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.