Sitting of 24 July 1936

Preamble
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Provisional Order Bills [Lords] (No Standing Orders applicable),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, brought before the Lords and referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Ripon) Bill [Lords].
Bill to be read a Second time upon Monday next.
Axbridge Rural District Council Bill,
Cheltenham and Gloucester Joint Water Board, etc., Bill,
London and North Eastern Railway (General Powers) Bill,
London and North Eastern Railway (London Transport) Bill,
London Passenger Transport Board Bill,
Surrey County Council Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Gas Light and Coke Company (No. 2) Bill,
Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.
Dover Corporation Bill [Lords],
Manchester Corporation Bill [Lords],
Mortlake Crematorium Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Bognor Regis Urban District Council Bill [Lords],
Ilfracombe Urban District Council Bill [Lords],
Liverpool Corporation Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Birmingham Corporation Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday next, at half-past Seven of the clock.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (St. Helens) Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Aberdeen Corporation (Streets, Buildings, Sewers, etc.) Order Confirmation Bill,
Aberdeen Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. ATTLEE: May I ask the Leader of the House what will be the Business for next week?
The SECRETARY OF STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Simon): The business for next week will be:
Monday.—Supply; Committee (19th Allotted day); Foreign Office Vote.
Tuesday.—Supply; Report (20th Allotted day); Scottish Estimates for Agriculture, Fisheries, and other services.
Wednesday. — Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill; Second Reading Debate on the Provision of Employment, and Hours of Work.
Thursday.—Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill; remaining stages, Debate on Home Office questions.
At Ten o'Clock on Monday and on Tuesday, the Committee and Report stages, respectively, of all outstanding Supply Votes will be put from the Chair.
If all the necessary business has been disposed of, we hope to take the Motion for the Summer Adjournment on Friday, 31st July.
The Adjournment Motion will contain the usual provision to empower Mr. Speaker, on representations being made by the Government, to call the House together at an earlier date, if such a course should appear necessary in the public interest.
The date of re-assembly in the Autumn will be announced next week.
Sir PERCY HARRIS: Will an opportunity be given to consider the Lords Amendments to the Shops (Sunday Trading Restriction) Bill?
Sir J. SIMON: I understand it is hoped to be able to do so.
Mr. BATEY: In regard to Wednesday's business, will the Minister of Labour be here, or will the business be under the Board of Trade? Some of us want to deal with the failure of the Commissioners to provide work in the depressed areas.
Sir J. SIMON: I understand that it is contemplated to be a Ministry of Labour day, but we will communicate, if necessary, with the hon. Member through the usual channels.
Mr. BATEY: Will the Minister of Labour be present?
Sir J. SIMON: I trust we may be able to keep him here.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to consolidate the enactments relating to the procedure for obtaining Parliamentary powers by way of Provisional Orders in matters affecting Scotland." [Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Bill [Lords].
PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 167.]
JUDICIARY (SAFEGUARDING) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 168.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  CATTLE INDUSTRY (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  11.12 a.m.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Ramsbotham): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  In view of the very long discussions which have taken place during the other stages of this Measure, I think the House will not expect me to speak at any length upon it to-day. I, therefore, formally move the Third Reading.
  11.13 a.m.
  Mr. WHITELEY: I had, of course, expected that the Parliamentary Secretary would not say a great deal in moving the Third Reading, in view of the discussions which we have already had upon this important matter, but his speech has been very much shorter than we anticipated. I am not sure that the Government are feeling quite happy about this matter. In view of the justification they have put forward for the continuance of the subsidy, we feel that, their arguments have not been quite as sound as one would have lilted.
  First, they say that the subsidy is essential to save the cattle industry of this country. I can imagine the National Farmers' Union coming down to meet the Minister of Agriculture and touching him upon a very soft spot in order to persuade him that the industry is in such a precarious position that it can only be saved by the subsidy. The Minister further justifies the subsidy by saying that it has operated so smoothly that there is no need for any modification, particularly at this stage. The pride of the Minister's justification lies in his statement that the continued assistance which has been given to the cattle industry has been the means of practically stabilising the price of beef. I can quite see that, from his point of view, the Minister, when he quotes figures, as he did in previous Debates, showing that the pre-subsidy price was 38s. 1d. and in the present month is 38s. 1½d., will naturally take a considerable amount of pride in
  970
  that performance. I want to ask him whether he has made inquiries to determine how many people are enjoying the pleasure of beef at their meals, in consequence of this subsidy to the cattie industry, if beef is a necessity.
  For three days we have been discussing the Regulations of the Unemployment Assistance Board, and not long ago we discussed malnutrition. If beef is a good thing, the people who were referred to in those Debates, and particularly the workers in the heavy industries, are entitled to their share of it; but I imagine that none of them have been able to get an extra pound of beef in consequence of the subsidy, or as a result of what the Minister calls the stabilised price which, according to his figures, dropped a halfpenny as a result of the measures which he has brought into operation. Then he goes on to point out that this is a measure to assist the consuming interests of this country, and there lies the test. You can only prove that a measure of this kind assists the consuming interests of this country if you can show to the House and the country that more of our working-class people are able, in consequence of it, to provide themselves with beef. I say that the purchasing power of the workers of this country is not such as to enable them to buy one extra ounce of beef in consequence of this subsidy.
  There is a further argument, which has not been developed in this House. I should like the Minister to tell us how this subsidy is going to be responsible for throwing no burden on international trade and preventing a falling off of our overseas trade. No argument has been put forward to show that it is possible, by a subsidy to any kind of industry, to maintain world prices at such a level that the people of this country can still obtain cheap food. We on this side object strongly to the idea of granting subsidies as a privilege to a particular section of society in this country. The value of subsidies may be great in certain respects, but if that value does not pass to the people of the country who are in real need, there can be no argument for them. The Minister of Health tried to point out that these subsidies were always for the benefit of the users. He argued that the housing subsidy benefited all those who used

  971
  the houses. But I can remember discussions in this House in which it has been pointed out and proved that in the main the subsidies went to the builders and to those responsible for the materials used in the building of the houses. We found also that the coal subsidy which was granted in 1925 never benefited the workers in that industry; it only delayed the critical position of the industry for about a year, and in 1926 we were faced with worse difficulties than before.
  If that is going to be the effect of a subsidy of this kind, we are strongly opposed to the idea that it should be granted without proper control, without proper marketing, without seeing that this money which is taken from the taxpayers of the country is used, not for the benefit of a particular section of the community, but in order to develop and organise and plan the material resources of this country. Unless that is done, we regard the subsidy as being of no great value. The right hon. Gentleman, in the course of one of our discussions, became very heated by the fact that someone on this side charged him with assisting his own friends, the farmers of this country, and in a heated moment he said, "If you on that side were here, you would use your power to help your miner friends."
  The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): I did not say anything of the kind.
  Mr. WHITELEY: I am very sorry if I am making a misstatement. I am not taking this from the record, but I remember that as a statement which the right hon. Gentleman made, jumping up in order to point out that we would probably use our power to assist our miner friends, just as he was using the power—
  Mr. ELLIOT: It is very unfair of the hon. Member to make a statement which he admits is not backed by any evidence, merely from recollection which he has of the Debate. I think he will find that he will not be able to substantiate it on examination of the records.
  Mr. BATEY: I have a distinct recollection of it.
  Mr. ELLIOT: I do not wish to delay the Debate, but I do not think the hon. Gentleman ought to make statements of that kind without evidence.
  Mr. WHITELEY: Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman says he made no such statement, I am not going to pursue it any further, but that is very clearly in my mind. If I have misjudged the right hon. Gentleman, I will not pursue the matter any further. Still, the impression created from the actual records of the Debate does go to create in my mind the definite impression that this is sheer class legislation, just as we have had in recent days class legislation to make it very difficult for one class to live more comfortably and enjoy the highest state of development. Here is a subsidy, given to a particular section of the community in this country, which to my mind is sheer class legislation and is not in the interests of the country. We on this side have a definite policy. If public money is to be used to build up and restore any industry in the country—a thing in which we definitely believe—we say that that money ought not to be given in the form of a free present to any section of society, but ought to be controlled and used in the general interests of the country, in order to see that these industries are thoroughly established to the benefit, not only of a particular section, but of every section of the community, and particularly the consuming interests. I hope that the Minister himself and the Department, in all the subsidies with which they have to deal in connection with this big subject of agriculture, will keep these points in mind, and will have a little more consideration for the consuming interests, because we feel that the consuming interests have been very much neglected. It is from that point of view that we oppose the Third Reading of the Bill.
  11.25 a.m.
  Mr. TURTON: The hon. Member has described this as sheer class legislation, and he objects to a privilege being granted to one set of men. At the beginning of his speech he said that the subsidy was not benefiting the consumer very much. He cannot have it both ways. If he wants us to get the cost of our production, the prices of beef must go up unless we have a subsidy. If he wants to have cheap beef for his miners, he must accept this subsidy that we are proposing. The reason is that we must pay the wages of those who work in the livestock industry and the cost of producing

  973
  beef. At the moment my farm labourers are paying a terribly high price for coal to help the miners whom the hon. Member represents. I think it monstrous that the party opposite should object to this subsidy when we are paying a very high price for coal in order to help the miners. We are ready to pay their high price as long as we are also getting the cost of production of our product. I hope the hon. Member will reconsider some of the remarks that he has made.
  The only point that I want to raise, the only point in the Bill, is the question of the date, 31st July. We have pressed the Minister to give us some indication as to when he really expects the long-term policy to come in. I regret that hitherto we have had no clear indication of what is in his mind. The nearest we got was last Friday, when the Parliamentary Secretary said he could not foresee the exact date on which it would be possible to bring the legislation into operation, but it would be long before the end of July, 1937. At an earlier stage I had on the Order Paper an Amendment to make that date 31st December next, but, in view of the fact that my hon. Friend could not foresee the date, I felt that, after 34 hours in this Chamber, he would not have any clearer foresight, so I took the Amendment off the Paper.
  It is of great importance that we should have some clear knowledge of when this temporary scheme is to come to an end. At the moment the grazier is doing better than those who have fed their cattle inside have done during the winter. If this Bill goes through without any further extension of the date, it will apparently be again helping the grazier, because the beginning of the long-term subsidy will be taking place at a time when the grazier is putting his beef on the market and it will be no help to the man who is fattening his beef inside. Those men have to plan ahead. There is no inducement to plan ahead for this next winter under the present subsidy scheme. I regretted very much that the Parliamentary Secretary said on Friday:
  "If the emergency conditions become permanent, and if then the measures taken by the Government in the emergency prove to be so well-founded as to form a proper basis for a permanent policy, it seems to me that it is not a matter for criticism but for congratulation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th July, 1936; col. 2418, Vol. 314.]
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  I hope my hon. Friend was merely trying to answer a mistaken argument from the other side in using those words, because to those in the livestock industry there is no question at all that the present subsidy scheme is most unsatisfactory and does not help quality production at all. I hope the Minister will give us some clear indication of the date that we may count upon for the beginning of the long-term policy, so that we can plan and ensure quality production in the future.
  11.30 a.m.
  Mr. CHRISTIE: I was rather disappointed to find that the Minister was not prepared to take very much notice of the figures as to the livestock industry that were presented to him by Members from the North of England and Scotland. How can the farmer estimate the advantages of what the Government are going to do unless he compares them with the figures which show the cost of producing fat cattle? In my county there have been for a series of years experiments to investigate what the cost of the production of a fat animal is. The cattle are bought in the ordinary market, the lay-out of the experiment and the method of feeding and costings are above suspicion, and the results are simply appalling. During the season of 1934–5 the loss on each animal was £6 13s. 11d. and, when the subsidy was taken into consideration, the loss was reduced to £4. If the subsidy were raised to 6s. 3d. the loss would still be £3 6s. 9d. The figures for the last winter are £4 16s. 1d. loss, reduced by the subsidy to £2 1s. 9d. If the subsidy were raised to 6s. 3d. the loss would still be £1 8s. 2d. That shows the great necessity for some assistance to the industry of fattening cattle. If an attempt were made to encourage high quality production and the subsidy for such cattle raised to 8s., the loss in the two winters would be £2 7s. 11d. and 9s. 1d.
  Then there is this point which must be very carefully taken into consideration. Owing to the tremendous increase in milk production, the quality of the home-bred store has very greatly deteriorated, and the number of store animals available which might eventually qualify for a quality subsidy is comparatively small. If the subsidy for the highest class cattle was raised to 8s., there would be far greater competition for high class stores

  975
  and a rise in price. If the matter is not very carefully considered, the great advantage of the additional subsidy for quality might very easily pass entirely to the store cattle breeder and a great deal of it out of the country into Ireland.
  When a bullock is fattened under such very unfavourable conditions, it has a deplorable effect on the farmer's outlook for his cultivation. A bullock, if he is provided with straw, which the farmer could sell for £1, will produce sufficient manure for an acre of land and, if we take the experience of a sugar-beet grower last year, and he put that manure on an acre of land, he started with the handicap of a debt of £4 from the loss on fattening the bullock. Allowing for the unexhausted value of his cultivation and the unexhausted value of his manure and the value of the sugar beet tops, it must have cost him at least £17 to produce an acre of sugar beet, and as eight tons of beet—the average yield per acre—only produced, say, £15 or £16, that is enough to show that with the loss of £4 on the bullock, and the value of the sugar beet not coming up to the expenses of growing it, the position of a farmer is a very serious one. It is obvious that even the subsidy which the right hon. Gentleman proposes will not be sufficient to do more than possibly minimise the loss.
  There is another aspect which is really worth considering. Professor Stapleton, who, I suppose, is the greatest authority on grass land in the country, gave an address to Members here a week or two ago in which he said there were 11,000,000 acres in England and Wales of grassland which is either poor, bad, or very bad. That is a deplorable state of affairs, but the reason for it is simply that the cattle industry does not pay, and the cure for it is to make the cattle industry pay. An unremunerative cattle industry means neglected grassland, just as unremunerative cereals mean foul and impoverished arable land. At a time like this, when we are threatened with war and rumours of war, it would be an excellent thing if the right hon. Gentleman would get into touch with his right hon. Friend the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence and evolve some scheme by which this vast area of land which is not fully productive shall be put to its proper use
  976
  and enable us to build up a vast store of home-produced food which will be available in time of war.
  When we speak of the difficulties of feeding our population in war time we nearly always think of wheat, but it should be remembered that we get wheat from the United States and Canada, a comparatively short haul, and that wheat can be transported to this country in any ship which will not leak, whereas beef has to be brought from the Argentine in highly specialised ships, with expensive refrigerating machinery. I implore the right hon. Gentleman to do his best to get into touch with his right hon. Friend and see if he cannot devise a policy which would enable this vast area of unremunerative grassland to be put to its proper use and furnish the nation with a real reservoir of food to be used in time of need.
  11.39 a.m.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: I was very interested in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Christie), and, speaking as one of the Scottish Members to whom he referred, I am deeply grateful to him for the friendly gesture which he made from the more prosperous fields in Norfolk. I do not propose, if I can possibly help it, to continue in any way the slight breeze which disturbed the otherwise amicable relationship between myself and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture on the last occasion. I intend to reverse that attitude against him, but I would like to point out that there are still one or two points of disagreement apparently between us, and I should like my right hon. Friend, if he can, to say where he stands with regard to them. He said on the last occasion—and I will quote his actual words from the OFFICIAL REPORT—
  "I do most strongly defend the principle that we should work commodity by commodity and not over-organise the industry at the beginning of our policy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th July, 1936; col. 2498, Vol. 314.]
  I would only say in reply that it is not really a question of principle. There is no principle in working commodity by commodity, and no principle underlies that method. It is a method of pure expediency. It may be necessary to use that method occasionally in the interests of agriculture or of the country, but

  977
  nobody can say that any principle underlies it. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that, with regard to the organisation of the industry, at any rate, he is not at the beginning of his policy now, and many of us feel that he might begin to direct a little more attention to this matter. He cannot expect those who represent constituencies in the North to be very pleased with the subsidy method up to date—the method of proceeding commodity by commodity—because in every case, except in this particular one which we are discussing to-day, other Commodities have been neglected, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk said just now. I would point out that one of the reasons why this subsidy cannot now be applied fairly, and why it must inevitably be lopsided is because his funds are already heavily charged for subsidies upon sugar beet and wheat which they can produce and which must enable them to produce beef at a much lower cost of production and get absolutely nothing out of it. My hon. Friend said in his speech that unremunerative cereals produce impoverished cattle and impoverished land. That is absolutely true, and I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he ought to include, if you like, grass in one form or another in his cereal policy, but he could not expect any such subsidy to operate fairly as long as he excluded barley and oats, which can only be grown in the North country, from his cereal policy, and his wheat and sugar beet subsidies. It is not fair. I should like to see a cereal pool.
  Mr. ELLIOT: Does my hon. Friend suggest that barley is only grown in the North?
  Mr. BOOTHBY: I do not say that barley is only grown in the North; oats are only grown in the North. I was pointing out to him, as he knows, that oats and barley are the only cereals that can be grown in the North of Scotland.
  Mr. QUIBELL: What about Lincolnshire?
  Mr. BOOTHBY: I would like to add this final observation. My right hon. Friend was very indignant indeed—in fact he was almost angry with me—because I said that there was a criticism that his policy had tended to restrict production at a time when there was a good deal of poverty about. I want it to go on record
  978
  that I did not say that he had restricted production, because with the exception of the milk scheme for Scotland, which at one period definitely did that for which he bears partial responsibility, I did not say, and did not make the charge, that his policy is aimed simply at restriction of production. After all, a subsidy is designed to try to stimulate production. But I do say that that charge which is made to-day, especially by hon. Members opposite in many industrial constituencies, cannot be completely met until you are satisfied that your marketing methods are reasonably efficient.
  I wish to emphasise what I have said two or three times in the course of these discussions that, as long as we have 36,000 proprietor butchers in this country, and 16,000 slaughter houses, we cannot say that agricultural marketing is really efficient. The violent fluctuations which still take place in different markets and districts in-this country is not an indication of marketing efficiency. Cleaning out byres does not help you really to solve the problem of marketing. I would say to my right hon. Friend that one of the men who, I think, he would agree, knows more about the marketing of beef than anyone else in the North of Scotland is not a farmer at all, but a banker. It is part of the business of bankers to know the conditions of agriculture because they have to grant credit to farmers. My farmers are not so nearly credit-worthy at the moment as farmers in the South and East of England. The gentleman in question has never swept out a byre in his life; he told me so the other day.
  My right hon. Friend has the report of the Livestock Committee, which he himself set up. It has been in his hands for a considerable time. He has also the report of the Elgin Committee. Both those reports stress the necessity for a greater centralisation of processing centres, particularly of slaughter-houses. Why does my right hon. Friend turn his face away from those proposals and seem to imply that they do not mean much? We are up against one of the best organised marketing schemes in the world when it comes to Argentine meat. From the birth to the death of the animal the beef is handled in the most beautiful manner. There is no better example of organised marketing than in the Argentine. That is what our farmers have to

  979
  compete with. What I want to make sure about and what the House wants to make sure about, is that this subsidy is not going into the hands of superfluous middlemen but into the hands of the right people—the producers and the consumers.
  It is of the most vital importance that livestock and cereals should be put on a sound economic basis. No one would wish to detract from the efforts that my right hon. Friend has made in the past, but he knows that the final solution of the problem must lie in increased consumption if we are to make agriculture healthy, prosperous and beneficial to us in the event of possible danger in war. I would ask my right hon. Friend, while he is putting through this producers' policy on the one hand, that he should bear in mind that the Government must at the same time use every effort to decrease the gap which exists between the price paid to the farmer and the price which the housewife has to pay for her meat.
  11.47 a.m.
  Mr. R. ACLAND: It has been a great pleasure to listen to the words of the last speaker, because he has put in such admirable and moderate language sentiments which I seem unable to express except in terms of rather extravagant language, which perhaps cannot be justified line by line and clause by clause. I will not worry the House now by adding to what I have said in the past or trying to add anything, although I do not think that anything could be added, to what has been said by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) on the subject of marketing. I want to put one point to the Minister and the House because of certain remarks originating from the Minister recently. There has been more and more talk of this subsidy policy as a consumers' policy. Cannot we come to an agreement as to the extent to which it is true to say that this is a consumers' policy?
  The Minister said that the Government's policy had had the direct effect of reducing prices to the consumer. I do not think that is a statement which will bear re-examination. The fact, surely, is, and I should think we can agree about it, that the fall in prices to the consumer
  980
  came about roughly in 1929 and up to the beginning of 1932, which were the years before the Government policy had begun to take any effect. There are those who consider that the fall in prices was due to a flood of imports. Will that bear very close examination? The flood is not so much as some people imagine. If we take the meat imports in hundreds of thousands of tons from about 1927 we get figures like these—in 1927, 212,000, and in the following years 205,000, 198,000, 208,000, 221,000, 211,000, 208,000, 218,000, 215,000 and up to the present time this year it is 207,000. Those figures do not vary five per cent. one way or the other from 1927 up to the present day. There has not been an overwhelming flood of meat imports. With great respect to the quotation which the Minister made from the Bingley report, which is against me, I suggest that the fall in meat prices has been very largely attributable to the reduction in the purchasing power of the community which took place between 1929 and 1931, and to the change in tariffs.
  I very thoroughly appreciate the fact that the Minister in his desire, and his quite correct determination, to save the livestock industry from extinction, might theoretically have imposed a policy which would have raised prices to the consumers sky-high. That was theoretically possible. It was at no time politically possible to introduce such a policy, but when the Minister says that this subsidy policy has produced low prices for the consumer, surely the only sense in which that is true is that the Government might have introduced a policy which would have raised the prices to the consumer, but they did not. If that is true and if the Minister claims that that is tantamount to saying that he has caused a reduction in prices, surely with equal truth I might say that the Minister owes his life to me because I might have run over him as he was crossing the road, but I did not. So much for the question as to whether the Government policy has produced lower prices of beef.
  I do not want to say anything about marketing, but I hope the Minister will do something about it with the co-operation of the producers' organisations before we meet again after the Recess. I am encouraged in the belief that he will do something because of some Amendments

  981
  to a Bill which we shall be discussing shortly. There I notice that the Minister, or somebody else, has done something which the right hon. Gentleman promised to do earlier but which some of us at the time did not think that he would do. However, he has done it, and we shall express our gratitude to him when the time comes. I hope he will do something about marketing. In working out the subsidy, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman and his officials will appreciate that we are dealing with an industry in which demand has rapidly changed. The demand for some of the outputs of this industry is very rapidly dwindling, and we shall not reach a permanent solution of the difficulties unless we take account very seriously of the changes and the falling off in demand. There is a very great change going on and it has gone on for several years. The demand is no longer for the 13 cwt. three-year old beast. The only effective demand for and the only hope of increasing the consumption of beef is to concentrate on the 9½ cwt. two-year old beast. Apart from anything which may be done in the realm of marketing, I hope that in working out and in framing the subsidy the 9½ cwt. two-year old beast will be encouraged as much as it is possible to encourage it, and that even if it should not prove possible to discourage the 13 cwt. three-year old beast, that not too much encouragement will be given to the man who thinks that he is satisfying present day demands and conditions by producing a beast of that size and age.
  11.55 a.m.
  Mr. WOODS: If we on this side of the House do not support this subsidy it is not because we do not appreciate the difficulties in which the industry finds itself. Some of us have reason to appreciate the difficulties from direct experience. Our objection to the subsidy is because we think it is not a solution of the problem. The difficulties of agriculture are not confined to these islands; they obtain in all highly industrialised countries, and the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) that we should reduce the age of cattle for beef supplies is no solution of the problem. If that were carried out there would be a demand for a further reduction and we should be limited to the provision of veal, with the
  982
  result that beef production would become a thing of the past. It is said that we shall make the industry pay by giving it a subsidy. We contend that that is an entirely fictitious way of dealing with the industry. If you give a subsidy it does not make an industry pay; it merely provides it with crutches to help it along. We say that by a subsidy policy you are not dealing with the essential difficulties of the industry, and that you will only have demands for higher and higher subsidies. If you pursue a policy of trying to make profits by cheapening production then there is no branch of industry which will be more quickly destroyed than the cattle industry. The fall in the incomes of the people of this country is tending to make good beef a luxury, and if you cheapen production you will not go on producing the good old roast beef of England. People will reduce their demand for beef, and the industry will become a thing of the past.
  The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) made a debating point in which I think there was a grievous error. He chided us that we had demanded, not successfully, unfortunately, a living wage for the workers and said that agricultural labourers, many of them friends of mine, were having to pay exaggerated prices for their coal. He taunted us with opposing a Measure which is going to help agriculture, and that it is not fair for us to oppose it when we are demanding higher wages for the miners at the expense of agricultural labourers. I can assure the hon. Member we are satisfied that the actual cost of the production of coal should give the agricultural labourers adequate supplies at much lower prices than they have to pay. The difference is that the slight increase in coal prices carried with it the definite obligation that the miner should participate in the additional income from the sale of coal. We are not convinced that the miner is getting a share of the increase he is only getting a margin, but there is no pretence whatever that the agricultural labourer will get an increase in wages as a result of this subsidy. The hon. Member will not claim that he is going to get an increase in wages because of this subsidy.
  Mr. TURTON: The hon. Member seems to forget that there is a wages board,

  983
  and also the fact that since the national Government have been in office wages have risen because of the subsidy.
  Mr. WOODS: The hon. Member did not hear the speech of the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Christie) in which the hon. Member showed that in spite of the subsidy, the producer of beef continues to make a loss, and, therefore, no Wages Board will give an increase while the producer can show a loss. They will rather say that the farmers have established a good case for a reduction of wages. If we had an assurance that the subsidy was going into the homes of the people who actually do the work, thereby making it possible for them to buy increased supplies of coals and other commodities, we should be on the high road to a solution of our economic problems. The fact is that there is no guarantee that the subsidy will mean increased wages in the industry, and it is really a source of shame that we cannot pay our agricultural labourers better than they are paid now.
  For these reasons we oppose the subsidy. It is not a solution on the right lines. In its operation it will only strengthen those who go between producers and consumers. Our experience in many cases is that where there is a continuous demand for beef, contracts cannot be fixed with the farmer at a price which would be acceptable to him, because of these marketing schemes. There is much more hope for the industry if there is a friendly go-between who is prepared to contract with the farmers, take their supplies, help them in the running of their farms, let them know what prices they can obtain and also the transport facilities which are available. If you want to give farmers a steady market for their produce I would appeal to the Minister of Agriculture to see that the British Forces, at any rate, get the best in the way of beef that the country can produce. Give the farmer a steady reliable market in supplying the armed forces with British beef.
  12.4 p.m.
  Mr. PALING: As one who is opposed to this subsidy I was naturally interested in the speech of the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), particularly in what he had to say about
  984
  the coal industry. I was also impressed by the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Sir E. Ruggles-Brise) in the Second Reading debate. The hon. and gallant Member is one of the champions of the farmers in respect of this subsidy—indeed, in anything else for the farmers. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton seemed to take objection to hon. Members on this side of the House talking about past legislation in regard to agricultural subsidies, and to our criticising this subsidy in view of the assistance which the coal industry has received. There is a vast difference between the assistance given to the coal industry and that given to the farmers. This is not the only subsidy the farmers have had. Agriculture is about the most highly subsidised industry in the country. The coal industry has not had a subsidy for a very long time. It has suffered from the depression since 1922, and in spite of all that it has asked and done, it has not had any subsidy, with the exception of a short period in 1925. I agree with the hon. Member that people are paying a higher price for coal, but part of our argument regarding the coal industry is that, owing to the fact that the industry is not organised as it should be, there is a wide gap between prices at the pithead and those paid by the domestic consumers. We all agree that the domestic consumers are paying too much for coal, and we believe that if the industry were properly organised, better wages could be paid to the miners and cheaper coal supplied to the domestic consumers.
  The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton also referred to coal, and said that higher prices were being paid. He claimed that what was right for coal was right for beef. I would point out that the farming industry has the same opportunity to organise itself in order to get better prices as the coal industry. Why does the farming industry not do it? Instead of organising the industry, they ask for the help of a subsidy. When a subsidy has been mentioned in connection with the coal industry, the industry has been told that it must put its own house in order, organise production and selling, and so on, and that then it will be able to get a decent price for its commodity. That is not what the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton or the hon. and gallant

  985
  Gentleman the Member for Maldon argue. The Minister does not say to the farming industry that, so far as beef is concerned, it must make an attempt to put its house in order, and that when it has made a serious attempt, the Government will consider what they can do. On the contrary, the subsidy has been given first, and even then there is no promise from the industry that it will reorganise itself.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: I would point out to the hon. Member that the agricultural industry is different from the coal industry in this respect. The ordinary farmer cannot possibly carry through a great reorganisation scheme. The Government have to do it.
  Mr. PALING: I agree that a different sort of organisation is necessary in the farming industry, but the mere fact that the industry is different does not mean that it should not be organised. My complaint is that the farmers have not made any serious attempt to organise the industry. I am rather disappointed with the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) this morning. Last week he put up such a good show that he irritated the Minister almost beyond endurance, and the Minister spent a large part of his time in replying to the hon. Member; but the hon. Member comes to the House this morning in sackcloth and ashes. Last week he said that the policy of dealing with the industry commodity by commodity, was not a policy at all, but a question of expediency. That seems to me to be a serious criticism and I think it is justified; but I do not know whether the hon. Member is justified in making it. He went on to refer to the fact that there are subsidies for wheat and beef, and it rather appeared as though his criticism was that he could not get a subsidy for oats and barley. I think he would be satisfied if he could get a subsidy for the commodities in which he is interested. Consequently, there is not any serious difference between the hon. Member and the Minister. The hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Christie) made a speech in which he said that our land is not producing as much as it ought, and naturally the industry does not pay. That seems to me to be a reasonable statement. But how is it to be made to pay when the tendency on the part of hon. Members interested in agriculture is not to make farming pay in
  986
  the ordinary way, but to make it pay by getting as much public money as they can from the Government?
  Mr. CHRISTIE: The position is that the industry could easily be made to pay if the wages paid were economic wages, but none of us wish that, because we want to see the agricultural workers receiving a decent wage. If they are given more than an economic wage, the industry has to be supported by a subsidy.
  Mr. PALING: The hon. Member says that the enormous wages which farm workers get are not economic wages, and that that is the cause of all the troubles of the farmers. I have heard that argument before.
  Mr. CHRISTIE: I think the hon. Member misunderstood me. I said that if more than an economic wage is paid in an industry and the industry is to continue, then it is absolutely necessary that it should be supported by a subsidy.
  Mr. PALING: I appreciate the hon. Member's argument. He says that if the farm workers were paid an economic wage—which I understand would be less than they get now—the industry would be all right.
  Mr. CHRISTIE: It could pay its way.
  Mr. PALING: I am not sure it would. I would point out that even now, if the farm workers were given all that the farming community is getting in subsidies, direct and indirect, it would more than pay all they are getting in wages. Although there may be some substance in what the hon. Gentleman said, there is not much.
  In connection with general principles, there is one other thing I would like to say. My mind goes back to the time just prior to my entering the House when I was a trade union and Socialist propagandist. When we talked about Socialist principles of public ownership and legislation to deal with industry, the common argument we met from those who who opposed us was that industry should be left alone, because it could get on very well without Parliamentary interference. Hon. Members have altered their tune now. Every time hon. Members representing a farming industry and some others, get on their feet in the House of Commons, it is to ask for a

  987
  subsidy; they are always asking the Government to help them because they cannot carry on themselves. They are always begging, praying, beseeching, pleading, wheedling, cajoling and threatening in order to get their hands into the public till and to get more from it than they are already getting. During the last few weeks I have heard the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Sir W. Smithers) ask questions about nepotism in the towns in South Wales. He has said that he suspects—I think wrongly—that members of the councils are getting their relatives into jobs. He says it is wrong, that it is corruption, and he wants a commissioner sent down to stop it. When we ask for more money for the unemployed we are told that we are guilty of political corruption and bribery, and are seeking votes. Hon. Members opposite want to stop it all. The hon. Member for Chislehurst wants a commissioner sent down to South Wales. I wonder what he would do if the farmers were to come and argue here for public money to be given to themselves? They have done it for years, shame-facedly and brazenly; they have asked for money for their own pockets. They are here this morning asking for subsidies and hoping that in the long-term policy that has been promised by the Government there will be a provision for subsidies, not for the immediate future only, but for a very long future, for all eternity.
  The Minister of Agriculture has been an adept in subsidising the agricultural industry. As a matter of fact he has bought his way through. He calls himself an administrator, a man with ideas and all the rest of it, but when it is all summed up he has bought his way all through. And he calls that a policy. He is going to do the same thing in his long-term plan. He says he will put the industry on a scientific basis, according to the ideas to which he has given expression. He is buying his way in this respect also. The hon. and gallant Member for Maldon reached the limit last week in his argument on this subject. Speaking of the long-term policy he said that the Government were prepared to give the industry £5,000,000. He added in effect, "They are giving us £4,000,000 now, and they are going to raise £3,000,000 by a levy. That makes £7,000,000. The Minister now proposes to give us only
  988
  £5,000,000, so we are being robbed of £2,000,000." That is the limit of argument for agriculturists to use for the sake of their own pockets. This subsidy was first of all to come out of the Treasury, but there was a half promise made that eventually it would be paid back to the Treasury. The hon. and gallant Member forgot that. Now it is not only proposed to wipe out the debt that is owing, but to pay consistently after the long-term policy is in operation the £3,000,000 that comes from the levy. How the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon can argue that agriculture is being robbed, I do not know. It is said that appetite grows by what it feeds on. If that be true of anything it is true in the matter of subsidies.
  I read an amusing report in the "Yorkshire Post" the other day. The farming community in this House are getting quite "cocky" and cheerful about their prospects. There was a meeting of the Conservative Parliamentary Agricultural Committee the other day, and this is what the "Yorkshire Post" said about it:
  "It was unanimously decided to-night by the Conservative Agricultural Committee that the Government's long-term beef policy requires amendment."
  They are still not satisfied:
  "Their first proposal is that the proceeds of the duty on foreign beef should be allocated to a livestock fund; that farmers should receive from the fund the difference between the market price and a standard price of 48s. per live cwt.; and that the Treasury should make good any deficit of the fund.
  "Under the Government's scheme the duties are paid direct to the Treasury and the Treasury pays a direct subsidy to farmers. The Committee consider that payments to farmers will be on a surer basis if charged to a specific fund and not left to the will of the Treasury."
  Why? They want the Treasury to pay the money into a specific fund so that there will not be the slightest doubt that the whole of it will go into the farmers' pockets. No one will deny that the farmers know how to look after themselves. Talk about political bribery and all the rest of it. I wonder what the people who passed that Resolution are doing. The report referred to goes on:
  "These payments would be on a more secure foundation still if the Committee's second proposal were also adopted. It aims at enlarging the fund. The Committee suggests that at the earliest possible moment

  989
  a duty should be placed on all meat imports—lamb and mutton as well as beef—from the Dominions, whose supplies, under the Government scheme, are duty free."
  What a comprehensive programme. No wonder the Conservative Agricultural Committee had a very good night. No wonder they think they will get what they want in view of their experience of the Minister in the past. There are some who call the right hon. Gentleman a strong man. As far as farmers are concerned he is putty; they can do anything they like with him. But that is not the whole of the story. The quotation from the "Yorkshire Post' goes on:
  "The idea of subsidising home farmers from the proceeds of a duty on imports is becoming infectious."
  Certainly.
  "The General Manager of the Milk Marketing Board told the Committee that he, too, would like a scheme of this kind rather than a Treasury subsidy."
  I should think he would. Talk about the appetite growing by what it feeds on. If they put sufficient pressure on the Minister he will give it to them. They call him "Our Walter." No wonder. If he produces this programme I wonder what they will call him then. He will get the sack and another man will be put in his place. That is the kind of thing the Government are asking us to vote for this morning. The agricultural industry, like other industries, has been going through a bad time, but it has preferential treatment over every other industry without exception. The Government would never dream of dealing with other industries as they have dealt with agriculture. The Minister last week argued that the building industry had had a subsidy and he asked, did not that help people? If I remember aright the only subsidy going to building to-day is the subsidy for the clearing away of slums, to prevent overcrowding and the rest of it.
  The building subsidy at any rate benefits the people whose poverty is greatest and whose need is greatest, but there is a vast difference between that subsidy and the subsidy which is here proposed. Is this subsidy going to help the poorest of the poor? On the contrary, it is going to penalise them. There is no parallel whatever between the building subsidy and the levy which the right hon. Gentleman is proposing for the cattle industry. As I say, out of the
  990
  building subsidy the poorest of the poor at any rate stand to get some benefit, but out of these agricultural subsidies and out of this levy in particular, the poor will get nothing. They will only have to pay more.
  We shall vote against this subsidy to-day. The agricultural industry has gone through bad times, but I think that this method of dealing with the situation is entirely wrong. We stick to the principle enunciated by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. Whiteley). If we pay out public money in this way, if these industries have to come to Parliament for help we have a right to demand control of those industries to the extent to which we are putting money into-them. In respect of all the millions that have been put into this and other industries the people who find the money have not got one pennyworth of control or share in those industries. They still belong to private enterprise which has made such a mess of them that they have to come almost crawling on their bellies to Parliament begging for help. Parliament has poured money into those industries in order to patch up capitalism and enable it to carry on in the hope that somehow, sometime, somewhere, something will happen which will get these industries on to their feet again. We do not think the method will succeed. We think that in the long run, so far from helping the agricultural industry, these subsidies will tend to spoil the industry and bring it to ruin, for all those reasons we shall vote against the Third Reading of the Bill.
  12.28 p.m.
  Sir WILLIAM WAYLAND: Speaking on behalf of farmers, I wish to point out that the hon. Member who has just spoken took a very narrow view of this question. Why should not agriculture be protected in the same way as the iron and steel industry and other industries in this country? We farmers would much prefer a duty to a subsidy because we think it would be fairer to the country, but if you want to see agriculture flourishing you must support it, and if you want to support it you have to consider the question from both points of view. Hon. Members opposite try to make out that this bounty or duty which is to be placed upon meat will increase the price of meat to the public. I deny that. It will not

  991
  increase the price any more than duties upon manufactured articles coming to this country have increased the prices to the consumers. The country ought to know that if they want agriculture to prosper they must protect agriculture against cheap labour in foreign countries, instead of allowing surplus produce to be dumped down here at any price.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Does the hon. Member suggest that the Argentine agricultural labourer is a lowly-paid worker? Is he not aware that the Argentine agricultural labourer receives better wages than the agricultural labourer in this country?
  Sir W. WAYLAND: I do not agree at all. The Argentine agricultural labourer has usually about 8s. to 12s. a week and meat in addition, and meat prices are low in the Argentine. The hon. Gentleman is entirely misinformed if he says that the Argentine agricultural labourer has even half the wages paid to agricultural labourers in this country. It is because of what we have to fight against, in regard to this dumping of surplus goods from other countries, that I claim that it is only fair that we should have protection, even to a greater extent than the Government are giving it to us now.
  12.30 p.m.
  Mr. ELLIOT: It seems that an all-night sitting is good for the House, because this morning we have not only had a number of short and very temperately-phrased speeches, but we have had the benefit of a closing speech from the Opposition from the hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Paling) whose interventions in our Debates we all welcome. It is true that he put his points in a very spirited fashion of which none of us will complain and he brought out the wide difference which exists on this question between the industrialists and the men of the countryside. Unless that difference is brought out clearly and the points at issue are threshed out here in the House we shall not come to a final agreement. It would be impossible and indeed wrong for me on this occasion to go at length into all the questions which have been raised in this Debate because the discussion is now being transferred to the countryside
  992
  itself. It is now to be argued out in the constituencies; it will no doubt be argued out in the technical organisations concerned, and many of the points put by hon. Members will, I hope, be solved in a way which will be more to their liking than they now anticipate. As the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) said, we shall be discussing later on something in which the Government have been better that their word. Let us hope that in the future, on agricultural organisation also, we may prove to be better than our word.
  I shall deal, first, briefly with the interesting speech of the hon. Member for Wentworth because it represented an attitude of mind which, I am sure, we shall need to meet. His point was that more had been done for the agricultural industry than for any other industry and particularly that more had been done for the agricultural industry than for the coal industry. He argued that the benefits which the coal industry had secured had been secured by organisation and that it was open to the agricultural industry to secure those benefits also by organisation. Let me ask the House to consider some figures as to the prices of those two great commodities, foodstuffs and coal. The essence of our contention is that, by its organisation, of which we do not complain, the coal industry has been able to hold up its prices to a much greater extent than the food industry. That has been denied to-day and in previous Debates by hon. Members opposite, and I took the precaution of providing myself with the figures.
  Taking the 1913 price at 100, the wholesale price of coal in 1931 was represented by an index figure of 133. The actual wholesale price per ton at the pit was 10s. 1½d. in 1913 and in 1931 it was 13s. 5½d. In 1931 the price of fat cattle was represented by a figure of 122, taking the pre-War price at a figure of 100. In 1935 the wholesale price of coal per ton at the pit was 13s. corresponding to an index figure of 128 but in the same year the price of fat cattle was represented by an index figure of 91. It had actually gone down 9 points compared with the pre-War figure, while the price of coal was still 28 points above the pre-War figure. The coal prices in shillings were 13s. 5½d. per ton in 1931

  993
  and 13s. in 1935. Fat cattle were 42s. 7d. per live cwt. in 1931 and in 1935 31s. 10d.
  Mr. ACLAND: I am not disputing those figures, but will the right hon. Gentleman say where they come from?
  Mr. ELLIOT: These are our figures for fat cattle per live cwt. in England and Wales—the usual standard figures for second quality used for our index numbers. With the subsidy, the price would be 106, but I do not think it can be seriously contended that the price of 106 with subsidy is in any way comparable to a price of 128 without. If we could have our 1931 price or certainly our 1929 price, we should make no request to the House for any assistance, but the price has gone down. The hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) says it is not due to Government action and that the great fall took place before 1932. I think it is true that the great flood of imports took place before that time but the weight of that was beginning to make itself felt in the beef market of the country, and when he says that the Government's policy is not responsible for the cheap prices, I think we are entitled to say that if these prices are to continue, either assistance must be given to the home industry or the industry must go out of existence, and if the home industry, providing about half our beef, goes out of existence, I do not think these very low prices will remain very much longer.
  The essence of our contention is that the well organised industrial trades have been able to hold their prices. Would it be contended by hon. Members opposite that by organisation we should screw up our agricultural prices? My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Sir W. Wayland), in his short intervention, said that that would be more satisfactory to the agricultural industry, and I think it would be, but would it be for the benefit of the people of this country as a whole? That is the question which the House has to consider now and in the future. I do not think it would be for the advantage of the people of this country as a whole. If we can have food at a lower price than in 1931 and still retain a reasonable remuneration for the producer, that is an advantage to the people of this country and not a disadvantage,
  994
  and while I do not complain of the eloquent series of epithets which the hon. Member for Wentworth was able to reel out, to the admiration of the whole House, especially after the all-night sitting, I would ask him to bend his mind to this question and to ask himself, on those figures, whether they are really justified.
  It is not enough to say that it is only by organisation that the coal industry has been able to maintain its figures. Take a competing product. Oil fuel gets a duty of 200 per cent., and there is no protective duty such as that in any agricultural field. The hon. Member, as a practical man in the mining industry, knows that if oil fuel was able to come into this country at world prices, it would mean a very great depression indeed in the coal industry, and I have often seen in the demands from the mining industry the demand that that aspect of the case must be taken into consideration. And, as well as the mining industry, the fuel industry, gets 100 per cent. of the home market. I do not wish to overstate the case. Heaven knows we shall have long and important debates on it, but I ask the House to take these facts into consideration when it is bracing itself, as it must, to this in some ways distasteful conclusion, that either you must have assistance from the general funds of the country or else the consumers must pay a higher price than they have been accustomed to pay for the last few years for their footstuffs. I do not think that would be a good idea.
  I was asked by the opener of the debate, the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. Whiteley), whether more people were enjoying beef as a result of the subsidy. I can answer that, certainly, in the affirmative. He asked me how many, and I can give him that figure too. The consumption of beef in this country between 1932 and 1934–5 has gone up by 8½ per cent., and if you take it as somewhere between five and 10 per cent., it is somewhere between 2,000,000 and 4,000,000 more people including children. I am not suggesting that if a man never ate beef before he has suddenly taken to eating 5 lbs. of it, but I am suggesting, if you want a figure, that there has been a rise of 8½ per cent. in the consumption of beef, namely, from 61 lbs. to 66 lbs. a head.
  Mr. BENSON: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that that is due to the subsidy?
  Mr. ELLIOT: I suggest that it is due to the lower prices, but most of it was home-produced meat.
  Mr. G. HARDIE: What percentage?
  Mr. ELLIOT: The increased consumption of beef was 8½ per cent.
  Mr. HARDIE: But what percentage of the total?
  Mr. ELLIOT: From 61 lbs. a head to 66 lbs. a head, and, as I say, the levels of imported beef have been more or less stationary during that time, so that it may be taken that the majority of the increase has been on home-produced beef. We are dealing with a very great and important section of our economic organisation, that is to say, the place which agriculture is to play in it and the terms upon which agriculture is to play that part. The fact that we have been able, by means of a subsidy, to absorb a greater quantity of beef shows that at any rate in this instance the suggestion that the policy of the Government is one of restriction and of cutting down supplies does not hold. A consumption of 61 lbs. of beef before and of 66 lbs. afterwards—that, at any rate, is not a policy of restriction for the people of this country.
  The other argument which has been very generally used is the argument that we should not neglect organisation, and I would not for a moment suggest that we should. I myself appointed or, rather, the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself jointly appointed the Bingley Commission for the purpose of examining the marketing of livestock, and we valued very much its report. It is true that my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) says that not enough attention has been paid to that report, or at any rate that I have not explained the lines on which I intend to act in the future. One must always remember that there is a great difference between the two countries of England and Scotland in this matter, and that Scottish organisation is very much more advanced than that of England, yet, in spite of that fact, the difficulties of the Scottish livestock producer, as my hon. Friend himself has said, are no less than those of the English producer, and indeed are greater.
  996
  Let me give the figures [Interruption.] I do not wish to enter into any controversy with my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen, because I am anxious to sit down as soon as possible, and if the two of us begin to argue, either in public or in private, it is almost necessary for us to arrange for an extension of time. But when my hon. Friend comments on the number of small butchers and asks whether that is satisfactory, I will quote his own words during the Committee stage on 13th July, when he said:—
  "… the gap … could be closed if agricultural reorganisation was taken in hand, and some of these innumerable middlemen—not the small butchers; we are not out against them, but some of the unnecessary middlemen—were swept out of the way."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th July, 1936; col. 1743, Vol. 314.]
  We all of us desire to see something done with regard to the middleman or the distributor, but when it comes to naming any particular class we are rather more chary.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: There is a difference between the butcher proprietor referred to in the Bingley report and the small retail butcher with the village shop, and it was to the latter that I referred in my speech.
  Mr. ELLIOT: That does not apply in Scotland, for the majority of animals slaughtered in Scotland are slaughtered in public slaughterhouses. Such a great number of private slaughterhouses does not, in fact, exist in Scotland. In England and Wales 27 per cent. of the animals slaughtered are slaughtered in public slaughterhouses. In Scotland the figure is 92 per cent. As for the animals going for sale in England and Wales, an average of 1784 cattle go to each certification centre as against 3029 in Scotland. The figure is very much higher in Scotland where the organisation of public slaughterhouses is much more extensive than it is in England and Wales. I suggest that it is not only in marketing reforms that we shall find the solution of the problem before us. If I have given any impression that I minimise the importance of marketing I hope that I may be allowed to disabuse the House of it because I am very anxious to see that brought forward. I only say that I do not wish to dogmatise about the matter.

  997
  When I am accused of lack of principle in dealing with farming because I am dealing with it commodity by commodity, I reply that I am working on a principle, which is that we should evolve as far as possible on the lines that our forefathers have laid down by many generations of trial and error. The accusation of upsetting the balance in the industry is in itself an admission of that principle. The practice of farming and good husbandry is one from which we should depart with great hesitation. We should do our best to maintain the experimental results of our forefathers. Indeed, it is the accusation made against us in another field that we are not doing enough to maintain the traditional agriculture in north-east Scotland. I do not wish to start to draw some blue print of a completely reorganised agriculture. I wish to work commodity by commodity with the object of preserving, so far as I can, the balance which our forefathers have obtained. It is not lack of principle that I should do that. It is, indeed, a principle and one which I have done my best to work. When I was discussing the sugar beet proposals I indicated that the root crops in East Anglia were what we desired to maintain, and it is for that as much as for any other reason that we may defend the production of sugar in this country.
  These are the main points on which the Debate has turned. There have been vigorous speeches, such as those of the hon. Member for Wentworth, the hon. Member for Blaydon and several others, who will excuse me if I do not go into their arguments at length. My hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk
  (Mr. Christie), in a thoughtful speech, argued that I should take more account of the costings that have been got out by agricultural colleges and, indeed, by individual farmers. I shall certainly do that in conjunction with the Cattle Committee which has devoted a great deal of thought and attention to this subject.
  Mr. MacLAREN: When will the results of that inquiry appear, and where?
  Mr. ELLIOT: I have already been in close communication with the Cattle Committee. We shall continue to examine these figures. Clearly, we cannot examine them across the Floor of the House, but we shall examine them with technical men who alone can give us the close and detailed examination which is necessary, and they will be brought out in publications and in the many Debates which, I fear, we shall still hold on this subject. I do not wish to refer to the speech of the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland), because I have dealt with it as far as possible during my speech. All the great problems which have been raised this morning will certainly require time for their consideration. Without the passage of this Bill that time would not be available. It is to give time for further examination and for the further approximation of our views on either side of the House which is necessary for the working out of a long-term policy, that I ask the House to give us the Third Reading.
  Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  The House divided: Ayes, 134; Noes, 60.

  Division No. 309.]

  AYES.

  [12.50 p.m.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

  Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

  Craddock, Sir R. H.

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Crooke, J. S.

  Fyfe, D. P. M.

  Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Ganzoni, Sir J.

  Blindell, Sir J.

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Gledhill, G.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Cross, R. H.

  Goldie, N. B.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Brass, Sir W.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Grimston, R. V.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  De Chair, S. S.

  Gunston, Capt. D. W.

  Brown, Rt.-Hon. E. (Loith)

  De la Bère, R.

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

  Bull, B. B.

  Denville, Alfred

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

  Harbord, A.

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Cartland, J. R. H.

  Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop)

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Duncan, J. A. L.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Dunglass, Lord

  Holmes, J. S.

  Channon, H.

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Hopkin, D.

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Emery, J. F.

  Howitt, Dr. A. B.

  Christie, J. A.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Clydesdale, Marquess of

  Fox, Sir G. W. G.

  Hulbert, N. J.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Morgan, R. H.

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Jackson, Sir H.

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

  Jarvis, Sir J. J.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  Keeling, E. H.

  Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Munro, P.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Kirkpatrick, W. M.

  Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Latham, Sir P.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Penny, Sir G.

  Tree, A. R. L. F.

  Leckie, J. A.

  Petherick, M.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

  Levy, T.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Turton, R. H.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Wakefield, W. W.

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Loftus, P. C.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

  Lyons, A. M.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Wayland, Sir W. A.

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Wedderburn, H. J. S.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

  Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

  Maitland, A.

  Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)

  Withers, Sir J. J.

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon H. D. R.

  Sandys, E. D.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Commander Southby and Captain

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Waterhouse.

  NOES.

  Adamson, W. M.

  Hardie, G. D.

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Potts, J.

  Banfield, J. W.

  Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

  Short, A.

  Barnes, A. J.

  Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

  Simpson, F. B.

  Benson, G.

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Bread, F. A.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Thorne, W.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Daggar, G.

  Lathan, G.

  Viant, S. P.

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Lee, F.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Watkins, F. C.

  Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

  McGhee, H. G.

  White, H. Graham

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  MacLaren, A.

  Whiteley, W.

  Foot, D. M.

  Maclean, N.

  Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

  Gallacher, W.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  Gardner, B. W.

  Marklew, E.

  Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Milner, Major J.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Muff, G.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

  Paling, W.

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Parker, J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Mr. John and Mr. Mathers.

  Bill read a Second time.

  TITHE BILL
  Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.—[Mr. Ramsbotham.]
  Lords Amendments considered accordingly.

  TITHE BILL

    CLAUSE 5.—(Obligation of owners of rent-charges to give particulars thereof to the Commission.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 4, line 44, after "disposition", insert "or otherwise howsoever".
    1 p.m.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    1000
    This is little more than a matter of drafting, but it is just possible that some of the charges on tithe rentcharge can only be established by relying on the doctrine of presumed lost grant.

    CLAUSE 7.—(Issue of stock and provisions as to beneficial interests therein.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 7, line 5, at the end, insert:
    "Provided that the foregoing provisions of this subsection shall have effect subject, in the case of stock to be issued to Queen Anne's Bounty, to the provisions of Part II of the Third Schedule to this Act, and subject to the provisions of this Act relating to the issue of stock in certain cases in respect of liabilities to repair chancels of churches or other ecclesiastical buildings."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    1001
    The point of making this Amendment is that the arrangements with regard to the issue of stock to diocesan authorities under clause 31 were inconsistent in form with the provisions of this Clause, as to the issue to the persons specified in Part I of the Third Schedule.

    CLAUSE 8.—(Transitional provisions as to interest on stock.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 8, line 33, at the end, insert:
    "enforceable against the person to whom the stock is issued in like manner as if the rentcharge in respect of which the stock is issued had been subject immediately before the appointed day to a mortgage to secure the amount charged, with priority over all other interests so enforceable.
    "(6) Nothing in this section shall affect the Bank of England, or a person purchasing in good faith and for valuable consideration stock in respect of which any such charge as aforesaid exists, with notice of any such charge."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Amendment is to improve the arrangement of the Bill and takes the place of Clause 36.
    Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 11, line 16, agreed to.

    CLAUSE 12.—(Transfer of management of annuities from Commission to Commissioners of Inland Revenue.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 12, line 7, after "date" insert:
    "not being earlier than the expiration of seven years from the appointed day."
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain Bourne): I have to call the attention of the House to the fact that this Amendment raises a question of Privilege.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment".
    My right hon. Friend in dealing with this matter when the Bill was before the House, said it was unlikely that the transfer from the Commission to the Inland Revenue Authorities could take place for several years, and I think he
    1002
    indicated a period of seven years. He has thought it desirable, in order to introduce certainty on the point, to insert the period of seven years. Incidentally, that will synchronise with the laying of the Commission's Report before the House as provided for by Clause 45.
    Mr. MUFF: Will the hon. Gentleman explain where the Privilege arises?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: That is a matter for the Chair to explain.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Does the hon. Gentleman put that point to me?
    Mr. MUFF: Yes, with great respect, I would like to do so.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The effect of this Amendment is to postpone the date of the transfer of the management from the Commission to the Inland Revenue authorities and the expenses of the Commission are a public charge.

    CLAUSE 14.—(Remission of excess of annuity over one-third of annual value of agricultural land.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 15, line 7, at the end, insert:
    "and for the purposes of the proviso to subsection (6) of the last foregoing section that amount shall be deemed not to have been paid."
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have to call the attention of the House to the fact that this Amendment raises a Question of Privilege.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    In the preceding Clause a provision is made for deductions from Income Tax assessments in respect of liability for annuities and this is not allowed so far as liability is extinguished by a remission. In this case it is obvious that, under the provisions of this Sub-section, the amount has been paid. The words in Clause 13 (6)
    "If by reason of a remission … an instalment is not paid"
    would not have covered a case in which an instalment was paid and was subsequently returned under the provisions of Clause 14 (4).
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: A special entry will be made in the Journals.
    Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 17, line 20, agreed to.

    CLAUSE 16.—(Recovery of annuities from owners of land.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 9, leave out
    "at the rate of five per cent. per annum."
    Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKER (Captain Bourne): This Amendment raises a question of Privilege.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    The provision as to interest being charged at 5 per cent. was applicable only to certain amounts due for compulsory redemption, and was intended to have a slightly penal effect where the sums were in arrear. My right hon. Friend has given sympathetic consideration to the matter since the Measure passed from this House, and in conjunction with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, has inserted in another place provision to leave out 5 per cent. and to substitute for it a rate which will depend upon the rate for Government securities for the time being.
    Mr. PRICE: Will this be a matter for the Treasury?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: It will depend upon the yield for Government securities.
    Mr. BELLENGER: If that is the case, why not insert a provision to that effect? The Minister is taking out a fixed rate of 5 per cent. and leaving the matter to be determined by the interest prevailing at the time in respect of Government securities.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: One cannot foresee, over the space of 60 years, what the rates for Government securities may be. They may rise or fall.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: A special entry will be made in the Journals of the House.
    Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 11, after "required", insert:
    "at the rate fixed under subsection (2) of the last foregoing section for the purpose of the determination of the amount of the consideration money."
    Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKER: This Amendment also raises a question of Privilege.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    1.10 p.m.
    Mr. MUFF: This House should not allow these questions of Privilege simply to go by in this casual way. This House should not be reduced simply to a rubber stamp for another place. I suggest that one of the two Ministers should explain a little more fully, to some of us who have not had the advantage of sitting on the Committee, what is the incidence of this matter. I would remind both the Ministers that the country has been very quiet during the passage of the Bill, but it occurs to some of us that these matters might be explained at greater length.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: It is customary to address that to the Chair.
    Mr. MUFF: I was addressing Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg the hon. Member's pardon.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I was not quite certain whether the hon. Member was addressing the Chair, but I understand him to be addressing questions through me to the Minister.
    Mr. MUFF: I want the matter to be further amplified, rather than dealt with in the casual strain which the hon. Gentleman has indulged in.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I will do my best. The decrease in the rate from 5 per cent. to a lower rate is dependent upon what the rate of Government securities may be, and there may be a trivial additional charge made upon the taxpayer, in the last resort. In all cases where Amendments from another place may have that effect upon the taxpayer, those Amendments are called privileged Amendments. This Amendment is in favour of the smaller tithe-payers. I know that this House has it in its power to accept or refuse Amendments from the other place on grounds of privilege, but as this Amendment is in the interest of the smaller and more indigent people, I think the House will not insist upon its rights of privilege.
    1.12 p.m.
    Mr. BELLENGER: I do not think the House can be entirely satisfied with the explanation which the Parliamentary Secretary has given. It may seem, to those who have not dealt with this matter on the Committee, quite a small one but we have it in the words of the Parliamentary Secretary that it may entail some slight charge upon the taxpayer.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I had better point out, in the general interests of the House, that Privilege does not necessarily mean an increased charge upon the taxpayer. In this case, it will not.
    Mr. BELLENGER: Then I misunderstood the Parliamentary Secretary. I understood him to say that, if this Amendment were carried, it might involve a small additional charge upon the taxpayer. I am protesting against this manner of getting Amendments through from another place. When we were discussing the Bill we were very much restricted because of the terms of the Financial Resolution, and it is not quite right that the Government should get these privileged Amendments passed in another place and bring them here and say, "They may involve a small extra charge on the taxpayer." We are the House which has an overriding right to say what should be borne by the taxpayer. We have dealt with a number of questions of privilege this morning, and they should not be allowed to pass without some protest being made.
    1.14 p.m.
    Mr. ACLAND: I have not been satisfied with many of the things which the Ministers have done in connection with this Bill, but I ought to say I am satisfied when I am satisfied. I am one of those who moved in Committee that an Amendment of this kind should be included, and I express my congratulations to the Minister. We must recognise that the Amendment is in the interests of the small taxpayer.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: A special entry will be made in the Journals of the House.
    Lords Amendment: In page 19, line 34, at the end insert:
    "(7) No application to the court for an order for recovery shall be made, and no proceedings under subsection (5) or (6) of this section shall be taken, in respect of an instalment of an annuity payable on any payment date until the expiration of three months from that date."
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This Amendment also raises a question of Privilege.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: The House will remember that when this Amendment was last before us very substantial support was given to it. In the course of the Debate, my right hon. Friend indicated that he was not in a position to accept the Amendment, but he gave an undertaking that he would go very carefully into the matter before the Bill passed another place. The result of that examination is the Amendment on the Paper.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: We certainly agree with the attitude of the Government on this question. For once in a generation their Lordships are right. The Minister, in the Committee stage and on the Report stage, resisted this Amendment, which was intended to safeguard the very small man. Fortunately, however, wisdom prevails on this occasion. We are very pleased with the Amendment.
    Mr. PRICE: May I ask what the nature of the Privilege is in this case? Is there likely to be a charge on the taxpayer as a result of the Amendment?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I think it is highly improbable that there will be any charge on the taxpayer but the Amendment raises a question of Privilege because it prescribes a definite limit of time which must elapse before proceedings can be taken, and, therefore, to some slight extent interferes with the control of public money.
    Sir W. WAYLAND: I also would like to congratulate the Minister on accepting this Amendment, which will certainly benefit those heavy tithe-payers whom I have the honour to represent.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: A special entry will be made.
    Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 24, line 15, agreed to.

    CLAUSE 20.—(Recovery of tithe rentcharge due on or before 1st October, 1936.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 26, line 1, after "tithepayer", insert "duly".
    1.17 p.m.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    Mr. BELLENGER: Would the Parliamentary Secretary be good enough to give us some explanation of this Amendment? No doubt it is a drafting Amendment, but those of us who are not lawyers might be interested to hear the reason for the insertion of the word "duly", and I think it is only fair to the House that the Parliamentary Secretary should give that explanation.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I think it is desirable that, when a tithe-payer serves notice on the Commission, he should serve it in accordance with the rules and regulations which such action demands. I do not know that it would affect the Measure if this Amendment were not made, but in the circumstances I think it would be advisable to insert the word "duly", unless the hon. Member has any express reason to the contrary. Accordingly, I suggest that the Amendment might be accepted.
    Lords Amendment: In page 26, line 24, at the end, insert:
    "Provided that this subsection shall not have effect as respects any arrears which are irrecoverable by the Commission by virtue of proviso (a) to subsection (10) of this section."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Amendment is necessary in order to cure a technical defect in the drafting. Clause 20 (10, a) provides that arrears are not to be recoverable notwithstanding that the tithe-payer is legally liable in other respects, if the arrears became due more than two years before the commencement of proceedings to recover them. A tithe-owner might serve a notice on a tithe-payer claiming payment of arrears which have become irrecoverable for this reason, and the tithe-payer might, either inadvertently or, possibly, by collusion with the tithe-owner, require a reference to the Arrears Investigation
    1008
    Committee as to the arrears. If this were to happen, the position under Sub-section (7) of Clause 20 as drafted would be that the Commission would have to pay an amount equal to the arrears, subject to any remission ordered by the Committee, to the tithe-owner, although the arrears would be irrecoverable by the Commission.
    Lords Amendment: In page 27, line 3, at the end, insert:
    "and a proportionate part of any remission directed by the Committee of arrears of a rentcharge, to which the provisions of section four of that Act relating to sums payable by way of sinking fund payment apply, shall be treated as attributable to the sum so payable for that year."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    It seemed proper that any remission directed by the Arrears Investigation Committee should be treated in the same way as remissions under Section 8 of the Tithe Act, 1891—that is to say, remissions where the tithe rentcharge exceeded two-thirds of the Schedule B value of the land—used to be treated. Under Section 4 of the Tithe Act, 1925, a proportionate part of the amount so remitted was treated as attributable to the Sinking Fund, and that sum was reduced accordingly. The House will remember that under the Act of 1925 the payment of £109 10s. was treated as containing £4 10s. in respect of sinking fund, but where there was a remission under the Act of 1891 the amount so attributable was reduced accordingly. It was thought proper that any remission directed by the Arrears Investigation Committee should be treated in the same way, because otherwise it would be unfair to the tithe-owners.
    Subsequent Lords Amendments, to page 37, line 21, agreed to.

    CLAUSE 31.—(Liabilities to repair chancels, etc.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 38, line 32, after "rector", insert "of a rectory with cure of souls."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

    1009
    The phrase "spiritual rector" would include a sinecure rector, and it was thought desirable that such persons should be required to commute their liability in regard to repairs to the chancel in the same way as lay impropriators.
    Mr. BELLENGER: I am pleased to see that this Amendment has been moved in another place, and I would like to direct the attention of the House to what was said by the right reverend Prelate who moved the Amendment.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member must not refer to a speech made in another place this Session.
    Mr. BELLENGER: I should like then, to direct the attention of the House to the facts, which I am given to understand are that at the present day there are some 19 rectors with no cure of souls, who are sinecure rectors. This lends substance to what many of us have thought in criticising the Bill, namely, that the Church should have put its own finances in order before the Bill was presented to us. Nevertheless, I was glad to see that the Amendment was moved in another place, and I feel sure it is one that can be welcomed by Members in all quarters of the House.

    CLAUSE 32.—(Furnishing of information to rating authorities.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 39, line 40, leave out from the second "Commission" to the end of the Sub-section, and insert:
    "as respects any land in their area whether it was on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, land in respect of which rates were assessable."
    1.25 p.m.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with Lords in the said Amendment."
    This is a drafting Amendment, necessitated by the fact that the Bill had been amended at an earlier stage so as to render the material date for ascertaining whether land was or was not agricultural land, and, consequently, was or was not assessable to rates, the 1st April, 1936.
    Lords Amendment: After the words last inserted, insert:

    NEW CLAUSE A.—(Limitation of personal liability of trustees, etc., as owners of land.)
    In proceedings taken against any person for the enforcement of a personal liability to pay any sum imposed by this Act on that person as being the owner of land, if he proves that the ownership of the land was vested in him in the capacity of a trustee or personal representative, and that his rights of indemnity are, otherwise than by reason of negligence or default on his part, insufficient to provide for his reimbursement in respect of that liability, the court may give such directions for the limitation or release of that liability as the court thinks just and equitable.
    1.26 p.m.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    It would be possible without the Clause for trustees to come under the disability of a personal liability where they themselves could not be held responsible for negligence or default. In order to prevent such a serious consequence, the Clause has been put in. It would be a very serious matter for trustees to find themselves, without any fault of their own, under a personal liability to pay an amount on behalf of their beneficiary.
    Mr. BELLENGER: I am not quite clear about the hon. Gentleman's explanation. Is this in accordance with the present law? Do I understand him to say that a trustee who commits some act, perhaps in all innocence, will be absolved by this Clause from any personal liability? How is that going to be proved? Must it be taken to the courts for a decision before the trustee can get exemption under the Clause?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: No new principle is involved. Under the general rules of equity a trustee has the clearest possible right to recover from the trust estate and also from his beneficiary, but it has been recognised that it would be a very serious injustice if a trustee were to be made personally liable for any sum which he would be unable to recover as trustee. For that reason this express provision is made. It is not importing any new principle into the law.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I have looked into this Clause very carefully and I can assure my hon. Friend that it is designed

    1011
    exclusively to safeguard a trustee who may find himself in very difficult circumstances.

    CLAUSE 34.—(Application to Grown Lands, etc.)
    Lords Amendment. In page 40, line 13, after "Crown" insert:
    "or of the Duchy of Lancaster or belonging to the Duchy of Cornwall."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This is necessary to make the Clause comprehensive in so far as Crown Lands are concerned.
    King's Consent signified.

    CLAUSE 38.—(Power of Queen Anne's Bounty to make consequential adjustments.)
    Lords Amendment, in page 41, line 22, leave out from beginning to "shall" in line 26 and insert:
    "Queen Anne's Bounty shall give effect to the provisions of Part II of the Third Schedule, and."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to more, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    These words are put in because without them it was not certain that the wording was wide enough to cover the powers that are given to Queen Anne's Bounty in the Schedule.
    Subsequent Lords Amendments to line 30, page 43, agreed to.

    CLAUSE 42.—(Serving of Notices.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 43, line 33, at the end, insert:
    "(2) In relation to any document issued by or under the authority of any Government department for the purposes of this Act, the Documentary Evidence Act, 1868, as amended by the Documentary Evidence Act, 1882, shall have effect as if the Commission and the Board were included in the first column of the Schedule to the first-mentioned Act, and any person authorised to act on behalf of the Commission or the Board, as the case may be, were mentioned in the second column of that Schedule, and the regulations referred to in those Acts included any such documents as aforesaid."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This is a little more than drafting. It is a piece of necessary machinery for enabling documents to be provable in evidence.
    Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 46, line 7, agreed to.

    FIRST SCHEDULE.
    Lords Amendment: In page 49, line 44, after "day" insert:
    "or which was vested for an interest less than a fee simple in possession in Queen Anne's Bounty by the Tithe Act, 1925."
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that this Amendment raises a question of Privilege.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    The purpose of this Amendment is to secure that the appropriate rate deduction shall be made. The Schedule covered Queen Anne's Bounty rent-charges which were either vested in fee simple or which were subject to leases. As the Bill was originally worded it did not cover a third very exceptional class of case where for technical reasons the fee simple did not vest in Queen Anne's Bounty, although the substantial interest in the rent-charge belonged to a benefice. The Amendment is designed to cover these very exceptional cases.
    1.24 p.m.
    Mr. EDE: I do not know if we could be told whether this was an Amendment that could have been made within the terms of the original Financial Resolution. Last night we had another Bill sent back to us from another place and we resisted one Amendment which it was suggested involved Privilege, and one of the reasons given by the Minister in charge of the Bill was that, had he desired to accept the Lords Amendment, he would have had to propose a new Financial Resolution. I understand that there have been several Amendments this morning raising questions of Privilege. I should like to be assured that this is an Amendment that can be made within the terms of the original Financial resolution passed by the House.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: The hon. Member need not have any misgivings on the matter. It was the wish of the House that the appropriate rate deductions should be made in connection with Queen Anne's Bounty. The Bill covered rent-charges vested in fee simple and rent-charges which were subject to leases, but there is a possible exceptional case which is neither precisely fee simple nor precisely lease, and the object of the Amendment is to cover that.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: A special entry will be made.
    Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 51, line 27, agreed to.

    THIRD SCHEDULE.—(Persons to whom stock is to be issued.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 53, leave out lines 13 to 44, and insert:

    "1. Stock issued to Queen Anne's Bounty in respect of tithe rentcharges which immediately before their extinguishment were vested in Queen Anne's Bounty for an interest in fee simple in possession and held on account of a benefice, or were attached to a benefice for such an interest, together with any securities representing sums carried or to be carried to the sinking fund in relation to any such rentcharges under section five of the Tithe Act, 1925, shall be held by Queen Anne's Bounty on their general corporate account, with the same powers of sale and reinvestment as if the stock or securities had been purchased by them out of moneys standing to the credit of that account, and no part of such stock or securities shall be appropriated to, or be at the individual risk of, any particular benefice.

    2. Queen Anne's Bounty shall, subject to the provisions of paragraph 1 of the Eighth Schedule to this Act, appropriate to each benefice concerned a sum of money equal to the aggregate of—

    (a) the amount of the stock issued to Queen Anne's Bounty in respect of such of the rentcharges aforesaid as were held on account of or attached to that benefice; and

    (b) the value, as estimated by Queen Anne's Bounty, of such of the securities aforesaid as are held on account of that benefice.

    3. The sum appropriated to a benefice under the provisions of the last foregoing paragraph, together with any securities representing investments of sums received for redemption or merger which are held on account of that benefice under the proviso to subsection (2) of section six of the Tithe Act, 1925, shall be applied and disposed of by Queen Anne's Bounty as money
    1014
    or securities in their hands appropriated for the augmentation of the benefice should by law and under the rules of Queen Anne's Bounty be applied and disposed of.

    4.—(1) Where any such rentcharge as aforesaid was immediately before its extinguishment charged with an annual money payment, the charge shall pass to the sum appropriated as aforesaid to the benefice."

    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Schedule concerns matters which are entirely domestic to the Church and was originally drafted upon wishes expressed by Queen Anne's Bounty. But subsequent consideration and consultation showed that there were certain details in it which did not carry out the purpose of the Schedule. Therefore, this Amendment is substituted for the words which previously appeared in the Bill, and I hope that the House will not take exception to it.
    1.36 p.m.
    Mr. BELLENGER: Although the Parliamentary Secretary has told us that this is entirely a matter for Queen Anne's Bounty, I am perhaps a little suspicious, and I should like to hear from him in what manner this new Schedule now being presented to us differs with the Schedule at present in the Bill. Is there any substantial alteration in this very long and complicated Schedule now being presented to us? Candidly, I have not had time to examine the matter very closely, and I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will give a little more information than the cursory information he gave in moving that this House should agree with the Lords in the Amendment.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no substantial alteration as compared with the Schedule as originally drafted. I frankly admit that I cannot go through it line by line and tell the hon. Member whether a particular alteration was an improvement or not upon what we had previously, but it is entirely domestic. As to the minor details I cannot explain where they differ, but I can assure the hon. Member and the House that there is no substantial difference between the two.

    SIXTH SCHEDULE.—(Method of Ascertainment of Compensation for Redemption of Corn Rents, etc.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 60, line 12, at the end, insert:
    "Provided that no deduction in respect of cost of collection and management shall be made in a case in which the consideration money for the redemption is to be discharged by an annuity."
    1.38 p.m.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    The Sixth Schedule, read in conjunction with Clause 30 of the Bill, provides for the redemption of individual corn rents, not only for cash but by means of annuities payable over a period not exceeding 60 years. These annuities will be payable to and collected by the owner of the corn rent, and form no part of the general extinguishment scheme dealing with tithe rentcharge. Under the existing Tithe Acts, it is at present possible for tithe rentcharge to be redeemed, the consideration money, with the tithe owners' agreement, to be discharged by an annuity, and in such a case in ascertaining the compensation for redemption, no deduction is made from the gross annual value on account of the cost of collection. This is only reasonable and fair, because the tithe-owner has to collect and deal with the instalments of the annuity. On this analogy, the Amendment provides that no deduction for collection and management should be made where a corn rent is being redeemed by means of an annuity.
    Mr. BELLENGER: Do I understand that no stock will be issued in respect of these annuities?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I think that the fact that the whole of the corn rent is to be collected by the corn rent owner presupposes what the hon. Member has said.

    EIGHTH SCHEDULE.—(Powers of Queen Anne's Bounty.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 63, line 18, leave out
    "such emoluments so long as they retain such benefices"
    and insert:
    "the emoluments to which they were respectively then entitled, so long as they respectively remain entitled to receive those emoluments or any part thereof."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This is merely an Amendment to get over a technical difficulty which would arise on the occasion of the union of benefices.
    Lords Amendment: In page 63, line 27, after "emoluments," insert "or to receive emoluments as 'members'."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Amendment is necessary to fit the case of corporations aggregate.
    Lords Amendment: In page 63, line 29, leave out from the beginning to the end of line 33 and insert:
    "the purpose of having available in relation to each corporation such amounts, calculated by reference to the value of the interests of those persons in those emoluments, as may be required for making such payments, to apply—

    (a) such part of the amount or amounts to be issued to Queen Anne's Bounty under paragraph (g) of subsection (4) of section twenty-five of this Act as they estimate to have been so issued in respect of tithe rentcharges held by them on account of the corporation; and

    (b) so much as may be necessary of the stock issued to Queen Anne's Bounty under paragraph 2 of Part I of the Third Schedule to this Act and held by them in trust for the corporation absolutely."

    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    In order to preserve the life interests connected with ecclesiastical corporations, it is intended to have recourse first to so much of the sum to be paid under Clause 25 (4) (g) (in respect of tithe rentcharge on non-agricultural land), as is received in respect of corporations and for the balance to make use of so much as may be required of the stock issued in respect of corporations. That was the intention of the House before the Bill went to another place and this Amendment carries that intention into effect.
    Lords Amendment: In page 63, after the last words inserted, insert:

    1017
    "3. Power, in the case of any tithe rentcharge vested for an interest in fee simple in possession in Queen Anne's Bounty by the Tithe Act, 1925, which was formerly attached to an ecclesiastical corporation, to hold and dispose of any securities representing sums carried or to be carried to the sinking fund in relation to the rentcharge under section five of that Act, together with any securities representing investments of sums received for redemption or merger which are held on account of that corporation under the proviso to subsection (2) of section six of that Act for the like purposes as if the securities had been stock issued to Queen Anne's Bounty under paragraph 2 of Part I of the Third Schedule to this Act in respect of the extinguishment of the rentcharge."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This Amendment is of a domestic character in respect of Queen Anne's Bounty to pool securities which they hold in respect of ecclesiastical corporations.
    Lords Amendment: In page 64, line 18, after the first "and" insert "incumbents of."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    The reason for this Amendment is that the accounts are kept as between Queen Anne's Bounty and the incumbents, and not between the Bounty and the benefices.
    Lords Amendment: In page 64, line 31, leave out from the first "the" to the end of line 32 and insert:
    "Loans (Incumbents of Benefices) Amendment Act, 1918, and the Acts to be construed therewith; or."
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    There have been several acts extending or amending the Clergy Residences Repair Act, 1776, and the new form of words comprised in this Amendment covers them all.

    NINTH SCHEDULE.—(Enactments repealed.)
    Lords Amendment: In page 65, line 1, leave out the Ninth Schedule and insert new Schedule A:
    1018

    ENACTMENTS REPEALED.

    Session and Chapter.

    Title or Short Title.

    Extent of Repeal.

    6 & 7 Will. 4. c. 71.

    The Tithe Act, 1836.

    Sections fifty-seven, sixty-two, sixty-nine, seventy-seven, seventy-eight, eighty and eighty-six.

    7 Will. 4 & 1 Vict. c. 69.

    The Tithe Act, 1837.

    The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

    2 & 3 Vict. c. 62.

    The Tithe Act, 1839.

    Sections fourteen, sixteen, seventeen, twenty-one and twenty-eight.

    3 & 4 Vict, c. 15.

    The Tithe Act, 1840.

    Sections seventeen, twenty and twenty-three.

    5 & 6 Vict. c. 54.

    The Tithe Act, 1842.

    Sections three, six, seven and eight.

    14 & 15 Vict. c. 25.

    The Landlord and Tenant Act, 1851.

    Section four.

    14 & 15 Vict. c. 50.

    An Act to amend an Act of the Third and Fourth years of King William the Fourth in respect of the Assessment of Tithe and Tithe Rent-charges for certain Rates.

    In section one, the words "tithe rent-"charges."

    14 & 15 Vict, c. 104.

    The Episcopal and Capitular Estates Act, 1851.

    In section eleven, the words "and tithe rentcharges."

    17 & 18 Vict. c. 116.

    The Episcopal and Capitular Estates Act, 1854.

    In section eight, the words "or tithe rentcharges" where they secondly occur.

    23 & 24 Vict. c. 93.

    The Tithe Act, 1860.

    Sections one, two, four to nine, thirty-one, forty-two and forty-three.

    The Schedule.

    32 & 33 Vict. c. 67.

    The Valuation (Metropolis) Act, 1869.

    In section four, in the definition of "gross value", the words "and tithe commutation rentcharge, if "any".

    45 & 46 Vict. c. 37.

    The Corn Returns Act, 1882.

    Section ten.

    49 & 50 Vict. c. 54.

    The Extraordinary Tithe Redemption Act, 1886.

    The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

    60 & 61 Vict. c. 23.

    The Extraordinary Tithe Act, 1897.

    The whole Act.

    10 Edw. 7. & 1 Geo. 5, c. 24.

    The Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910.

    In section thirty-nine, in subsection (2), the words "and tithe "commutation rent-"charge (if any)".

    1019

    Session and Chapter.

    Title or Short Title.

    Extent of Repeal.

    8 & 9 Geo. 5. c. 54.

    The Tithe Act, 1918.

    Section ten. The First Schedule so far as unrepealed.

    11 & 12 Geo. 5. c. 35.

    The Corn Sales Act, 1921.

    In section two, in subsection (3), the words "and in section ten "(which relates to the "application of the "septennial average "to the Tithe Com-"mutation Acts)".

    14 & 15 Geo. 5. c. 21.

    The Finance Act, 1924.

    In section twelve, in subsection (1) (b), the words "and tithe "commutation rent-"charge, of any".

    15 Geo.5. c. 20.

    The Law of Property Act, 1925.

    In section one, in subsection (2) (d), the words "tithe rent-"charge".

    In section one hundred and ninety-one, in subsection (12) the words "tithe rent-"charge or".

    In section two hundred and one, in subsection (1), the words "tithe and".

    15 Geo.5. c. 21.

    The Land Registration Act, 1925.

    In section seventy, in subsection (1) (e), the words "tithe rent-"charge".

    15 & 16 Geo. 5. c. 87.

    The Tithe Act, 1925.

    In section one, subsection (1).

    Section two.

    In section four, subsections (1), (2), (4) and (5).

    Sections six, nine and eleven.

    In section twelve, paragraphs (a) and (c).

    In section thirteen, subsections (2) and (4).

    Section seventeen.

    In section twenty, subsections (3) and (4).

    15 & 16 Geo. 5. c. 90.

    The Rating and Valuation Act, 1925.

    In section three, in subsection (2), the words "or tithe rent-"charge" and the words "tithe rent-"charge" where the last-mentioned words secondly occur.

    In section twenty-two, in subsection (1) (b), the words "and tithe rentcharge, if any."

    In section sixty-eight, in subsection (1), in the definition of "gross value", the words "and tithe "rentcharge, if any", and subsection (2).

    1020

    Session and Chapter.

    Title or Short Title.

    Extent of Repeal.

    19 Geo.5. c. 17.

    The Local Government Act, 1929.

    In the Third Schedule, in paragraph 2, the words "any tithe rentcharge or", where they first occur, and the words "tithe rentcharge or", where they secondly and thirdly occur.

    20 & 21 Geo. 5. c. 24.

    The Railways (Valuation for Rating Act,) 1930.

    In section four, in subsection (1) (b) and subsection (3) (ii), the words "and tithe "rentcharge (if "any)".")

    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    Mr. EDE: I really think that we ought to have some explanation of this Amendment. In respect of another Amendment to Clause 36 the Parliamentary Secretary, without even rising in the slightest degree, said "Drafting", and the Clause was struck out of the Bill. I suppose it is really drafting to strike a whole Clause out of the Bill.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: The reason I did not give an explanation was that it had already been given on Clause 8 which we had already passed.
    Mr. EDE: Surely we are entitled to have an explanation of why a whole Schedule should be cut out and another put in.
    1.44 p.m.
    Mr. BELLENGER: I do not wish to appear as if questioning the Parliamentary Secretary's knowledge of all these Amendments from another place, but here we are asked to cut out a Schedule dealing with I do not know how many Acts of Parliament which would be repealed, and to insert a new Schedule to replace it. The Parliamentary Secretary offers us no information as to the effect of this new Schedule and whether it will include any other Act of Parliament which should be repealed. As this is the last Amendment and will not take very long, perhaps he will tell us where it differs from the Schedule which he asks us to leave out.
    1.45 p.m.
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I am afraid that if I were to reply fully to the hon. Member, it would be a long time before I finished, as it would involve reading the original Ninth Schedule and comparing it with the Schedule now in the Bill.
    The Bill has had extremely careful consideration—the hon. Member and other hon. Members have taken a valuable part in the work—with the result that there have been numerous Amendments, which made it necessary to give special consideration to the Repeal Schedule. On the whole it was thought better to leave out the original Schedule and to insert a revised Repeal Schedule. The new Schedule is merely a revision of the original Schedule. I hope the hon. Members will be content with that explanation. With regard to the complaint made by the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), I ought to have pointed out that we had dealt with the matter in Clause 8. When we got to Clause 36 I said "Drafting", and I ought perhaps to have added a few words with regard to Clause 8.

  SEA-FISHING INDUSTRY ACT, 1933.
  Mr. ELLIOT: I beg to move:
  "That the Sea-Fishing Industry (Regulation of Landing) Order, 1936, dated the eighth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, made by the Board of Trade under the Sea-Fishing Industry Act, 1933, a copy of which was presented to this House on the ninth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, be approved."
  1.47 p.m.
  Mr. ADAMSON: On a point of Order. May I ask for guidance as regards the scope of these Orders? I understand that the Statutory Rules and Orders are issued under the Sea Fishery Act, 1933. They concern the industry as a whole and the livelihood of those engaged in it. I would ask for your ruling, whether we can on this occasion discuss the administration of the Act of Parliament under which these Rules and Orders are made and also the condition of the workers engaged in the industry?
  1.48 p.m.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: On that point of Order, may I say that the first
  1022
  Order is made under the Sea-Fishing Industry Act, Section 1? Before an Order can be made under Section 1 of the Act certain pre-requisites are necessary, which may be summarised under three headings: (1) There must be three other Orders in force; (2) If the Orders, are not made by the 28th of this month the Minister must consider that Sea-Fish Commission's report; (3) Orders made before 28th July shall cease to have effect unless each House has passed a Resolution to continue them and, lastly, before this Order can be made the Minister must have had regard to the interests of the consumers of sea fish. In these circumstances, I submit that it is impossible to discuss this Order without discussing the organisation of the sea-fishing industry, and my contention is borne out by a statement to that effect in the report of the Sea-Fish Commission which says:
  "While we have no difficulty in recommending the continuance of the Statutory Regulations under the 1933 Act, subject to modification—"
  One of these Orders being now before us:
  "We are satisfied that these measures alone cannot solve entirely the problems of the regularity and quality of the fish supplies or restore trawling, particularly in the near and middle waters, to a reasonably remunerative level."
  This report, upon which the Minister is relying, goes on to explain that all these matters "are inextricably bound up with that." That is to say, the regularity and quality of fish supplies, which is the subject dealt with in the first Order, and the question of restoring trawling to a remunerative level, are inextricably bound up with the organisation of the fishing industry. In these circumstances, I submit that any attempt to discuss this Order without having the wider subject of the organisation of the industry open to us for examination would not be effective. Therefore, I would suggest that on the first Order you should allow an open discussion, including the matters referred to in the Sea-Fish Commission's report, and, if so, the discussion on the subsequent Orders might be confined to their precise terms.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am not certain what will be the effect of these Orders and what would happen if they are not passed. The hon. Member would

  1023
  be in order in arguing that they do not go far enough, but I do not think that we could have a general discussion on the question whether the Act of 1933 is sufficient or insufficient. I will, however, listen to the argument and see how far the hon. Member is in order.
  Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: I presume that it will be open to us to argue that these Orders will be ineffective or even injurious to the industry in whose interests they have been designed. Surely, it will be possible for us to have a discussion on the Sea-Fish Commission's report, arising out of which and in accordance with the recommendations of which, these Orders are now being made. Perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House if we discussed the two Orders together. I think the Minister was beginning to do that.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: In reply to the last point raised by the hon. Member, it would obviously be for the convenience of the House to have a discussion on both Orders at the same time, but I do not think that we can go into matters which cannot be dealt with under the Act itself.
  Mr. ELLIOT: On the Order Paper there are two Resolutions, but they relate to only one Order, that is to say, to this new Order which allows certain modifications of import restrictions and, therefore, the making of an amended Order, covered by Resolution No. 1, is necessary. The new Order is to be continued in force in subsequent years, and for that purpose Resolution No. 2 is necessary. Then there is a Northern Waters Order, but that does not require an affirmative Resolution. We are, therefore, dealing with one Order (A), an amended Landing Order, and (B) a Resolution extending that amended Order for subsequent years.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: On a point of Order. The Minister has said, quite rightly, that we have two Orders in our hands dealing with the fishing industry. The effect of one Order is to regulate the foreign landings of fish. The effect of the other Order is to restrict the landing of fish by British vessels from distant waters. The first Order requires two Resolutions to give effect to it, and they are now before the House. The second Order does not require
  1024
  any formal Resolution of the House. Shall we be able to discuss the second Order, although it does not require a definite Resolution of the House? The Order arises also out of the Act of 1933, and I think that our discussion to-day will be seriously incomplete if we are not allowed to refer to it.
  Mr. ELLIOT: Naturally I desire that the discussion should cover the Northern Waters Order as well. It was for that purpose that we delayed the discussion until we were able to lay the terms of the Northern Waters Order before the House. Perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House if we dealt with the first Resolution, which is a small point amending the existing Order to allow salt cod fish to come in, and then had a discussion on the Second Resolution to continue the Order in force after the appointed day.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) will realise that it is difficult for me to give a ruling on an Order the effect of which is by no means clear on the face of it, but I do not think we should be following our usual practice if we went into a detailed discussion on an Order which does not require the approval of the House. If my memory is right it is open to any hon. Member to move a Prayer.
  Mr. ELLIOT: I am sure it is not the desire of the House to go in detail into the Northern Waters Order, but I think it will be competent for hon. Members to refer to it as part of the general policy effected by the Landing Order. I suggest that we might now deal with the first Order, which amends the original Order and allows wet salt cod fish to be imported without restriction, and then afterwards have a discussion on the other Resolution.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: With reference to the first point, I think it is obvious that some reference to the Northern Waters Order would be in order. All I meant was that we cannot go into the details of an Order which is not before the House and which no hon. Member has taken the necessary steps to bring before the House.
  Mr. ELLIOT: This Order is to amend a former Order which applies to

  1025
  fish fresh or cured which are found in the sea other than certain excepted categories. The amending Order introduces a new excepted category, wet salt cod fish. The purpose of the Order is to give British curers greater facilities to import from abroad wet salted split cod. This is salted immediately after catching or salted ashore under the same conditions so that the whiteness of the fish is preserved, and it produces a quality of dried article which is specially required for certain foreign markets which have recently been found for British salt fish. British salt fish merchants who dry this wet salt cod are unable to take 'advantage of these fresh markets unless they can get larger supplies from abroad, and wet salt cod of the same quality is not available in any quantities from British landings. This amendment, therefore, is for the purpose of allowing a further amount of raw material to be imported from foreign sources for the purpose of processing in this country for re-export.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: There is one further alteration. In the Preamble to the original Order, there was a reference to the fact that it was the policy of the Government to restrict foreign landings to 90 per cent. of the average foreign landings for the years 1930, 1931, and 1932. That reference has been dropped out of the Preamble to this Order, and I should be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman will explain whether there is any significance in this omission and if so what it is.
  2 p.m.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I should like the right hon. Gentleman to explain what appears to me to be a flaw in the administration of this Order. I have given as close a study as I can to the Act of 1933 to find out how far it is within the power of the right hon. Gentleman to revoke an Order once it has been made. There is no time limit in the Order. Under Section 1, it is severed on 28th July. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at Section 8 of the Act of 1933, he will see:
  "Where any of the provisions of this Act confers a power to make an Order, the power shall be construed as including a power, exercisable in the like manner, to vary or revoke the order by a subsequent Order."
  That cannot mean that once the right hon. Gentleman has made an Order
  1026
  under the earlier Section that he has by this Section power to make new Orders free from all the restrictions which envelop his powers under the previous Section. The only meaning of Section 8 is that the Minister having made an Order can only vary or revoke it under the same restrictions as surround his power to make it in the first place. You cannot assume that the power to revoke an Order is outside the restrictions imposed upon the Minister in Section 1, which confers upon him powers to make the original Order. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will explain how he can revoke an Order once it is made, and if he cannot that he will put some time limit in the Order, otherwise he might find himself and the Order floating about in mid-air, only to be rescued by a fresh Act empowering him to make Orders without any restrictions.
  Mr. PETHERICK: The right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) has said that there is no mention in the Preamble of the 90 per cent. limitation of imports. I hope that does not mean that the Government are departing in any way from the policy of restricting imports, because I personally would prefer to see, in the interests of fishermen, imports drastically curtailed. If, as I understand, the Order merely provides for what is in essence a re-export trade, that is taking in fish from abroad and subjecting them to certain processes for re-export, I can see no objection to it.
  2.5 p.m.
  Mr. ELLIOT: I think the points which have been put to me exemplify the procedure I suggested to the House a little earlier. The point which the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro-Jones) put would more appropriately come up when we are discussing the second Resolution. This amended Order, unless continued by the House, can only run to the 28th day of this month. Therefore, it would be appropriate to consider its continuance after we have made the small technical Amendment which is desirable to allow an increased importation from foreign countries for the purposes referred to by the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Petherick).
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: Would the right hon. Gentleman answer my point, which does affect the Order as it is?
  Mr. ELLIOT: The fixed percentage was dropped very largely because these matters are at present regulated by trade agreements, and may be regulated further in agreements to be made. Therefore, while those agreements are still in abeyance, it is obviously undesirable to put a fixed percentage in the Order.
  2.6 p.m.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: May I say that I support the Amendment which is made in this Order? As my hon. Friend the Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Petherick) said, it is a very good thing that this measure of encouragement should be given to an important export industry, that of fish, which is very largely a Scottish industry. I regret only that it is confined to wet salted cod. A certain amount of ling is wet salted, although I agree that cod is the most important. I shall certainly vote for the Resolution.
  Resolved,
  "That the Sea-Fishing Industry (Regulation of Landing) Order, 1936, dated the eighth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, made by the Board of Trade under the Sea-Fishing Industry Act, 1933, a copy of which was presented to this House on the ninth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, be approved."
  2.7 p.m.
  Mr. ELLIOT: I beg to move,
  "That the continuance in force after the twenty-seventh day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, of the Sea-Fishing Industry (Regulation of Landing) Order, 1936, dated the eighth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, made by the Board of Trade under the Sea-Fishing Industry Act, 1933, be approved."
  The House will see that this Resolution raises a somewhat wider issue than that raised by the preceding one, and I hope to be able to show that this is a Resolution which the House should approve. It will be remembered that the regulation of landings was part of the policy of the Sea-Fishing Industry Act, 1933. It was also part of the policy of that Act that the conditions of the sea-fishing industry should be inquired into by a Commission and the report thereon laid before the House. The Sea-Fish Commission, presided over by Sir Andrew Duncan, has been a model Commission in the energy with which it has worked. Shortly after the Commission was set
  1028
  up, the crisis in the herring industry became very acute, and the Commission was asked to devote itself, as a matter of urgency, to the working out of some policy for the herring industry. The Commission undertook its task with great vigour and thoroughness, and presented a report which led to legislation in the House.
  That delayed the proceedings of the Sea-Fish Commission in dealing with the second important subject, that of white fish, and it is for that reason that the report dealing with white fish was not presented earlier. When it was presented, however, it approved the policy of His Majesy's Government of regulation of landings, and indeed in some ways it suggested that that policy should go even further. In one particular instance it suggested that the policy should be relaxed, and that the Northern Waters Order should extend only for three months instead of four. The new Northern Waters Order does, in fact, carry out that important recommendation of the Sea-Fish Commission. In general the policy of the regulated market which His Majesty's Government had introduced for the fishing industry was approved by the Sea-Fish Commission, and it is on that account and on account of practical experience, that we ask the House to pass the Resolution continuing that policy for a further period.
  The dangers to the fishing industry of this country are known to hon. and right hon. Members, who have as close aquaintance as I have with the actual difficulties of the fishing industry, but I think none will deny that the examination of books and accounts has shown that even for the white fishing industry, its prosperity and indeed its survival is a matter of question in conditions even as they are. I think none will deny that if this limitation by quantity were taken off, some other limitation by tariff would have to be introduced in its place. There is no need for me to emphasise the importance of the maintenance of the white fishing industry in this country. The industry welcomed these proposals. It has worked them honestly and I think with general acceptance, and it asks unanimously for their maintenance. Therefore, the continuance of this policy is asked for by the industry, is approved by the Sea-Fish Commission, and is laid before the House in

  1029
  an affirmative Resolution by the Government. I think that is a very strong case, and I think we should be ill-advised if we were to reject that consensus of opinion.
  2.14 p.m.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: I am always glad to find myself in the unaccustomed rôle of supporting the Government and welcoming its measures. Therefore, it was a great pleasure to me to be able to support the first Resolution on the Paper which, by freeing the import of wet salted fish from restriction, carried out a recommendation which my hon. Friends and I strongly urged when the 1933 Act was passing through the House. At that time our representations were resisted by the Government and by hon. Members opposite, but I am glad to see that in practice the advice which we gave to the House and the Government has been proved to be sound, and that this measure of freedom has been accorded to the wet salted fish industry for the import of its essential raw material.
  Now, I am very sorry to say, I have to revert to my more accustomed attitude of opposition to the proposals of the Government, because I believe that they are tackling this problem from the wrong end. Their policy is devised in the immediate and, as I think, short-sighted interests of the trawler-owning industry. I want to say frankly—because if I did not I might be thought to be sailing under false colours—that I am personally concerned very much to defend the interests of the inshore fishermen. I belong to a fishing town where the inshore fishing is the principal industry of the people. Inshore fishermen have fewer spokesmen, and those who do speak for the industry are in less powerful positions than those who are able to speak for the great and highly organised and wealthy trawling section of the industry. But I do not wish to adopt an attitude of hostility or antagonism, or any attitude other than one of most friendly co-operation with the trawling industry. I recognise that it is a most vital branch of the industry and that it provides a very large proportion of our fish. I think this point is overstated in the report of the Commission, but at any rate the trawling section does provide a very large proportion of the fish consumed in this country, and certainly its interests should
  1030
  be amply considered by the Government, but no policy can be satisfactory which does not embrace the interests of all sections of the industry, both trawling and inshore.
  It is also a matter of regret to me that I cannot join in the praise which the Minister accorded to the Sea-Fish Commission. I read their Report on white fishing with deep disappointment, particularly because there is practically no mention of the inshore fishing at all, and in so far as it is mentioned its importance in the scheme of things is overlooked, its social importance in the country, the fact that there are large areas containing towns and villages which depend upon inshore fishing, the fact that these men were, as Lord Balfour described them, "the shield and buckler of the Allied cause in the War," the fact also that they man the lifeboats in time of peace. All these facts give them a real claim upon the consideration of the Government and of public opinion, a claim which was very cavalierly treated by the Commission.
  I believe that the policy which I advocate, the basis of which would be the conservation of the stock of fish in the North Sea, is as essential to the prosperity of the trawling industry in the long run as it is to that of the inshore fishing industry. The particular Order which we are discussing is intended to regulate the landings of imported fish. When the 1933 Act was debated this quota regulation, under which the landings of foreign-caught fish were to be restricted to 90 per cent. of the average foreign landings of the years 1930, 1931 and 1932, I criticised as vicious in principle and likely to be inoperative in practice. So it has proved. Why was it likely to be inoperative in practice? Because landings of foreign imported fish had been in fact steadily falling off. I have here the figures. The landings in 1930 were 2,500,000 cwts.; in 1931 they were just over 2,000,000 cwt.; in 1932, they were 1,800,000 cwts. Therefore the average of those landings for those three years was 2,100,000 cwts. If you take off 10 per cent. the landings which were allowed under the quota restrictions were to be 1,941,000 cwts. as against 1,856,000 cwts. which had been landed in 1932. In short, more fish were allowed to be landed under the provisions of this Order than had in

  1031
  fact been landed in 1932. Therefore, I prophesied that the Order would be inoperative, and so it has proved.
  For hon. Members to say that it has been helpful to the industry is flying in the face of the facts. The Sea-Fish Commission give no reasons for saying that it has been helpful, but they do say quite frankly that the actual landings in 1934 fell no less than 500,000 cwts. below the quantity which was allowed to be imported under the Order, and in 1935 they fell 550,000 cwts. below the quantities allowed under the Order. Therefore I say that the Order has proved to be absolutely inoperative. The steady decline in imports which had been going on in 1930, 1931 and 1932 has continued, as it was bound to continue, and at an accelerated pace owing to German exchange difficulties. But the Order itself has never been within sight of being operative in this country.
  What effect will this new Order have? It will, of course, allow the import of the raw material of the white salted fish industry. That is to the good. But when I asked the Minister what significance attached to the omission from the preamble of any reference to the restriction of imports to 90 per cent. of the foreign landings in 1930, 1931 and 1932, he said that the amount of restriction would depend upon the result of trading negotiations now going on with foreign countries. Presumably this omission presages an effort by the Government to persuade the foreign governments to agree to a further measure of restriction. My submission is that restriction is the wrong road on which to travel in order to save this industry. It will force up prices and contract the market. Being inoperative, as in the case of the present Order, it merely plagues those engaged in the industry with irksome restrictions and brings benefit to no one.
  The other Order—the Northern Waters Order—is far more important from the point of view of the future of the industry and the general interest of all branches, trawling and inshore fishing, of the industry. I do not want to discuss it in detail. The only important detail in it is one which I welcome, the new Amendment which has been inserted as a result of the report of the Sea-Fish
  1032
  Commission and very likely owing in part to the strong speech which was made by the hon. Member for South-West Hull (Mr. Law) when we discussed the Order in this House a few months ago.
  I wish to refer to the Order from the point of view of the conservation of fish in the North Sea. Its effect has been to drive up prices and to limit the supplies of fish in the four months of the year during which it has operated—June, July, August and September. This new Order attempts to limit the mischief which was done by the old Order and raises the ban on fishing in these far distant Northern waters in the month of September. The effect of the closing of these distant Northern waters was a sharp rise in the price of fish during the four months that it was in operation—in the case of cod from 12s. 5d. in 1932 to 17s. 10d. in 1935—and that rise hit the fried fish shops very hard. The fried fish shops are not only places where a great number of the masses of the people go to eat fish, but they are the best customers of the white fishing industry, absorbing no less than 50 per cent. of the whole white fishing catch. The sharp rise in price during those months has, as I say, hit them hard and has prevented that expansion in the consumption of white fish which should have followed from the increased purchasing power of the people in recent years. An increased consumption of fish is the only sound foundation for a revival of the fishing industry, but instead of expanding their business the fried fish shops have been compelled to reduce their turnover. Then, at the end of the four months, in October, when the ban was removed, a large supply of fish was shot upon a market debilitated by four months of high prices and the result has been, as the hon. Member for North West Hull said a few months ago, an artificial slump in prices when the duration of the Order expired. The House will observe that this restriction upon landing from certain areas of sea in the far North applies not to foreign sources of supply, but only to British trawlers and merely to reduce the period of the exclusion of fish landed from British trawlers from distant Northern waters by one month, will do little to alleviate the bad effects of the Order.

  1033
  But there is in my opinion an even more deplorable effect of this Northern Waters Order than the effect on price and that is its effect on the livelihood of the inshore fishermen and on the stock of fish in the North Sea. I come back here to what I indicated at the beginning was, in my opinion, the central problem of the fishing industry in this country at present, inshore and trawling branches alike. That is the depletion of the stocks of fish in the North Sea. The Sea-Fish Commission drew attention to it in the following passage:
  "At the same time, the British harvest from the North Sea and the other near waters has been less plentiful in volume and less satisfactory in respect of the size of fish caught. The landings from the North Sea amounted to 5,490,000 cwts. in 1913. The almost total cessation of fishing during the War years allowed the stocks to recuperate and exceptional catches averaging 6,415,000 cwts. were obtained for the years 1920 to 1922. There followed a notable drop to an average of 4,812,000 cwts. for the years 1923 to 1925, and there has been a further decline to 3,789,000 cwts. in 1935. Moreover, the English statistics indicate that while the aggregate amount of time spent by steam trawlers in fishing on the North Sea ground dropped by 13 per cent. between 1925 and 1935 there was a drop of about 30 per cent. in the quantity, caught per hour of fishing."
  Again they say:
  "The reputation of fish as a food was built up in this country on the rich variety of fresh and prime species taken from the near and middle waters. The fortunes of the main trawling ports, apart from Hull, are dependent upon those waters, and in recent years—due in part to diminishing returns by reason of depleted stocks and possibly even more to competition from very heavy landings of fish from distant waters—the financial results have been poor."
  That is the theme which runs through this report. The effect of this restriction on fishing in Northern waters is to increase the pressure upon the North Sea where the stock is being so rapidly depleted. The Sea-Fish Commission go on to say in reference to Orders under the Act of 1933 as to mesh of nets and the size limits of fish.
  "In our opinion the Orders are useful and necessary measures of precaution and should be continued. In view of the widespread concern felt as to the impoverishment of the home grounds particularly for hake, plaice and haddock, the question of further possible protection requires consideration. The closure of areas for periods has been suggested, but would give rise to great practical difficulties and the most hopeful proceeding would appear to be a
  1034
  further enlargement of the minimum size of mesh of nets."
  I believe that to be an illusion. People who have little knowledge of the industry greatly exaggerate the importance of the enlarged mesh. It sounds all right to say that if you make the mesh bigger the little fish will get out, but the action of the ship as it moves through the sea has the effect of closing the meshes of the net and even the larger mesh does not enable the smaller fish to escape. Month by month the Fishery Board in Scotland publish returns in which they refer to the scarcity of fish in the North Sea and the near waters. I have copies of those returns for April, May and June, and I find in them such references as:
  "Short voyage trawlers had a very poor month particularly those vessels which usually work on the nearer home grounds."
  And again:
  "Poor catches on the nearer grounds."
  And again:
  "the North Sea grounds where fish appear to be very scarce."
  And again:
  "The earnings of short voyage trawlers showed variations. On the grounds frequented by these vessels fish were generally reported scarce."
  These returns all tell the same story of the depletion of fish in the North Sea and in our home fishing grounds.
  It is not in the distant Northern waters that fishing ought to be stopped, but on the spawning grounds and in the shallow waters which are nurseries for fish in the North Sea and on the West Coast of Scotland. The policy of stopping fishing on the distant Northern Grounds is increasing the pressure upon the stocks of fish in the North Sea and is increasing the pressure on the inshore fishermen and provoking illegal depredations by the trawlers. I know what a temptation it must be for the master of a trawler, who has worked hard day after day, sometimes for a week at a time, who has come towards the end of his voyage, who has to go back to Aberdeen or to Fleetwood, and who has caught very few fish, and so he just goes inside the three miles limit, where perhaps in a night he can catch enough to make the difference between a prosperous and an unprofitable voyage. Therefore, it is not surprising to find that the Fishery Board for Scotland, in their annual report, say:

  1035
  "Other methods of white fishing did not, generally speaking, enjoy the same measure of prosperity as trawling."
  Thus inshore fishing has to bear the brunt of the Government's policy which we are discussing to-day. It is the stocks of fish in the home waters that need conservation, and it is this failure of the inshore fishing in recent years that has been responsible more than any other single factor for the de-population of the Highlands of Scotland. The continuance of this policy will ruin the fishing villages on the North-East of Scotland, and if an emergency comes, the country will need these men in another war just as they needed them in the last War. Indeed the President of the Board of Trade warned us the other day that we are already suffering from a lack of recruiting for the Mercantile Marine. The right hon. Gentleman said:
  "Already I find that in many directions there is a shortage of British seamen. There are several United Kingdom ports where it is almost impossible to make sure of getting British seamen when they are wanted."
  It is from these little fishing villages round our coasts and from these small harbours and piers that the finest seamen in our Mercantile Marine have been recruited in the past. The difficulty of these fishermen is not prices. They make no complaint about low prices. What they complain about is the lack of fish, the scarcity, and the increasing scarcity year by year, of fish, due to the increased trawling in the North Sea; and by this policy of closing the distant Northern fishing grounds the Government are increasing the trouble and making the position of these men worse. These complaints, too, are not confined to this country. Iceland, Norway, and other other countries are reacting to this increased pressure caused by the Northern Waters Order on their nearer grounds by prohibiting trawling in their home waters.
  I beg the Government to abandon this ill-fated and ill-conceived policy, to agree that it is in the North Sea and not in distant waters that the stock of fish should be conserved, and to enter into negotiations with the signatories of the North Sea Convention with a view to negotiating an agreement which would prevent trawling and, I would add, seine-netting too, at certain periods of the
  1036
  year, in the Moray Firth, the Minch, and the other shallow waters both off our coasts and off the coasts of the other countries bordering on the North Sea; and thus not only give new hope to the Scottish line fishermen and a new and more secure basis for the economic life of the Highlands, but also ensure the preservation and increase of the stocks of fish in the North Sea, on which the prosperity of the trawling, as of all other branches of the British fishing industry, depends.
  2.40 p.m.
  Mr. RICHARD LAW: I should like to thank the right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) for the very kindly and generous reference which he made to me in his speech, and I hope he will not think I am lacking in gratitude if I venture to pass some criticism on the rest of his speech, which I did not think was quite so sound. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to me, at the beginning of his speech, to take a somewhat curious line in his objection to trawling. He told us, first of all, that he objected to the original Order because it was inoperative, and then he said he objected to the new one because it might be operative. It seems to me that there is a certain inconsistency in that, although I must add that he also said that an Order which was inoperative was not only just negligible, but had certain definite disadvantages inasmuch as it hindered the ordinary trader who would have to go through a number of meaningless forms. I do not think that is really quite what the situation was. Even though the Order may have been inoperative, it did have a very great and, as I believe, beneficial effect on the fortunes of the fishermen. It had this effect, that it gave at any rate one basis of certainty to an industry which of its nature is very uncertain. It did tell the industry that whatever difficulties they might have, whatever fluctuations there might be, at any rate there was some certainty in regard to the importation of foreign-caught fish; and because the industry had that certainty, it was able to embark upon a great programme of development, which I believe would not have taken place if it had not been for this Order which we have had in past years.

  1037
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to discuss the effect of the Northern Waters Order, and he said that he was opposed to it in the interests of the inshore fishermen. I would not for a moment detract from anything which he said so eloquently about these men and about the services which they have performed for the community, but I am not nearly so sure as the right hon. Gentleman is that the Northern Waters Order has been detrimental to the interests of the inshore fishermen. In fact, I feel fairly sure that if there had been no Northern Waters Order, the inshore fishermen would by now have been very nearly wiped out of existence. Speaking entirely for the moment from the point of view of my own constituency, the absence of that Order would not have been so very terrible, because it would have meant in effect more fish in the Northern waters in which these vast fishing machines which go out from my own constituency would have had complete freedom to trawl, and they might well have put the inshore fishermen out of business, so I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is justified in saying that this Order has been harmful to the inshore fishermen.
  There is a further point. He implied that because of the operation of this Order, all the vessels which had fished in Northern waters were now fishing in the North Sea. I do not think that is true. These vessels are not fitted for fishing in the North Sea. They are much too expensive for that purpose, and I do not think there has been any very great increased fishing of the North Sea as a result of the Northern Waters Order.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: Surely my hon. Friend realises that the effect of denying to these big vessels access to their distant grounds in certain months is to cause them, or a great many of them, to fish nearer home. I do not suggest that these big vessels go from Hull to fish on the Dogger Bank, but they go to grounds somewhere south of the prohibited area, pushing other trawlers further south on to nearer grounds. I quoted a great deal of evidence which tends to show that much more fishing is going on in the North Sea as a result of that Order.
  Mr. LAW: There is no doubt that there is that tendency which the right
  1038
  hon. Gentleman has described, but I do not believe that it is very considerable, and I do not believe that the disadvantage to the inshore fishermen which arises from that tendency can be compared with the greater disadvantage which would have come to them if there had been no restriction in northern waters at all. I have in the past been opposed to the Northern Waters Order because of its drastic form of operation, but the Minister has now seen fit to amend the Order on the lines of the recommendations of the Sea-Fish Commission. That has satisfied me to a great extent, and it has satisfied the right hon. Gentleman to some extent, too, so that there is no dispute on that.
  There is one other point I would like to put to the Minister. It is perfectly true that the producer has to be given a chance. He is given a chance by this Order and by the Northern Waters Order, but it is equally true that the fishermen must be given a fair deal, too. As the industry as a whole benefits from the Orders, the fishermen will benefit because of the manner in which they receive their payments. Under the Act as it stands the Minister can only renew this Order if it appears to him that there have been or are being taken such steps as are possible to reorganise the industry. It is fair to say that at the present time it is not possible to take very drastic steps because the Sea-Fish Commission reported only a short time ago. It is fantastic to assume that it would have been possible for the Government to have considered the report and for the industry to have done so and given their opinion on the Report to the Minister. I hope that some reorganisation will take place and that the Minister will in a special degree pay attention to the recommendations which the Commission make with regard to settlages. I ask him to do that because it is of extreme importance, although it may seem of little importance.
  I do not believe that the trawler owners make any abuse of the existing practice of settlages. I do not believe that in my own constituency they do abuse it. They may in the constituency of the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones), but I am cetrain that in Hull there is no abuse. At the same time, there is a strong suspicion in the

  1039
  minds of the men that there is some trickery going on, and it would be in the best interests of the industry as a whole that that suspicion should be removed. I hope that when the Minister comes to the question of the reorganisation of the industry he will bear that point, among others, in mind. I hope that the success of the new Order will equal the success of that which it will replace.
  2.50 p.m.
  Mr. MARKLEW: References have been made to matters dealt with by the report of the Sea-Fish Commission which cannot receive adequate discussion in the time at our disposal to-day. There are several other matters into which we cannot go in detail, and I hope that the fact that they have been referred to to-day will not be used as an excuse for declining to supply an adequate opportunity at some future time for the discussion of the wide range of important matters which one finds in the second report on the white fish industry of the Sea-Fish Commission. These are important matters connected with an important industry and ought not to be disposed of in a casual discussion such as can only take place this afternoon. I propose to con fine myself to one matter which has reference to the operation of the Northern Waters Order. I do not know how the right hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir. A. Sinclair) arrived at the conclusion that this Order had been seriously ineffective—
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: I was referring to the restriction of landings. Foreign landings fell 500,000 cwts. in 1934 and 550,000 in 1935 below the level at which the quota would have come into operation. Therefore it was wholly inoperative. I never suggested that the Northern Waters Order was inoperative. On the contrary I complained of its operation.
  Mr. MARKLEW: I accept the correction of the right hon. Gentleman. The report shows that, contrary to the opinion of the hon. Member for West Hull (Mr. Law), the operation of the Order has not only been very effective, but, to some extent, has been used to the advantage of the trawler owners, very much to the detriment of the merchants, and, through the merchants, to the detriment of the consumers. On page 65 of
  1040
  the report reference is made to it in this way:
  "There may well have been a shortage of supplies during the restricted months when landings were barely maintained at the 1932 level. A steep rise in price has resulted, and although a moderate rise was one of the objects of the Regulations, the present position appears to be unhealthy."
  From the point of view of the merchants, and particularly of the consumers, I should say that the position is exceedingly unhealthy. I endorse what appears on page 64 of the report, where we are told by the Commission:
  "We do feel that a responsibility rests with the trawler owners, in return for the protection granted to them under the Order, to make every endeavour to furnish the appropriate supplies."
  By "appropriate supplies" I take it that what is meant is such supplies as will, while maintaining a remunerative price to the trawler owners, not result in such a steep rise in price as will justify the Commission in describing it as unhealthy.
  Mr. PETHERICK: Did the Commission ascribe what they describe as a steep rise in price to the Northern Waters Order?
  Mr. MARKLEW: Yes, the heading to the paragraph is "Restriction of fishing in Northern waters," and it is to that and to no other cause that they ascribe the steep rise in price. As a consequence of that, I understand that representations have been made to the Minister. Here I would like to pay a compliment to the hon. Member for Grimsby (Sir W. Womersley) where I have been in the business for the last 26 years, for the large amount of work I know that he has done behind the scenes in trying to provide material wherewith the Minister could come to a decision and enable the industry in all its branches to derive the advantages that have been denied in the past. I hope he will accept that compliment from one who is politically opposed to him but who recognises his industry in seeking to promote the welfare of the town which he represents. My only regret is that I did not succeed in taking that representation from him in 1929. I think all sections of the trade will be grateful to the Minister for the fact that he has reduced the restrictions placed on British trawlers fishing in Northern waters by shortening to three months the four months period during

  1041
  which they were not permitted to fish there, but while that may satisfy the trawler owners I think experience will show that still further reductions in the prohibition period will have to be effected in the interests of the merchants, and particularly in the interest of fish fryers, who not only take some 50 per cent. of the whole product of the trawling industry, but provide an opportunity for the poorest sections of the community to obtain a cheap and nourishing variety of food.
  Whilst thanking him for the small mercy of the reduction of the restriction period, I hope that a matter which has come to my knowledge informally, shall I say, will be kept constantly in his mind, in order that some of the difficulties 'arising out of this situation may be removed. I understand the Minister has interviewed all sections of the trade and has secured some measure of agreement between them, but also, I am informed, and he will correct me if I am misinformed, that that measure of agreement was reached on an understanding—I cannot go so far as to say a firm agreement—between the Minister and the trawling section of the trade, that no undue restriction shall be placed by themselves upon trawling in Northern waters other than those imposed by the Order itself. If there is that agreement or understanding I hope it will be honoured in the spirit as well as in the letter, and that the trawler owners will discharge their responsibilities, referred to in the Commission's Report, to see that supplies are adequately maintained. If so, there will be no complaint from the merchant side of the trade, and prices may be maintained at that reasonable level which was remunerative to producers and not prohibitive to consumers.
  My concern is very largely, I will not say exclusively, with the protection of the interests of the distributors and the consumers, but I am not so blind as not to recognise that producers must also be prosperous if distributors and consumers are to receive the advantages of so large and useful an industry. If the Minister keeps a close and watchful eye on the trawler owners themselves to see that they do not step outside the provisions of the Order and themselves impose additional and voluntary restrictions on supplies, and keeps in view the object of
  1042
  maintaining prices at the healthy level which the report of the Commission speaks of, he will not only have done a service to the trade in all its branches, but will have shown some disposition to protect the interests of consumers.
  3 p.m.
  Mr. PETHERICK: The hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Marklew) put up a case more for the fish fryers than for anybody else, but I am not convinced by his arguments concerning the effect of the Northern Waters Order. He drew attention to the fact that the second report of the Sea-Fish Commission did say that a steep rise in prices had resulted, although a moderate rise was one of the objects of the Regulations; but I do not take it from reading the entire passage that they ascribe that rise only to the regulations with regard to Northern Waters, because they say at the top of page 64:
  "Although there is evidence to show that the market has been somewhat overloaded, it is apparent that, since the date of the Order, that there has been a distinct increase in the effective demand for cod."
  It may be that the effective demand has gone a bit further than the supplies and has led to an increase in the prices during those months in Hull or Grimsby. I entirely disagree with the right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) that the inshore fishermen are not dissatisfied with the prices they receive but are dissatisfied only because they cannot get any fish. I believe that to be an utter and complete fallacy, because I have talked not only to inshore fishermen but to others, and I know that they welcome the efforts of the Government during the last two or three years to raise the wholesale prices of fish, knowing that it was impossible for the fishing industry to remain in being at all with the price of fish as it was in 1932.
  The hon. Member for Colne Valley gave vent to the complaints of the fish fryers, who seem to claim that their business is being prejudiced. I am not convinced that that is the case. There are seasonal changes in demand and people eat other forms of food, and it is extremely difficult to pin things down to any particular cause; but it is to be noted that whenever fish fryers are putting forward complaints about the shocking prices they have had to pay for potatoes or fish

  1043
  they quote the prices of 1932, although no trade can expect to go on getting its raw materials at those bankrupt prices.
  I do not wish to discuss the Northern Waters Order because I am extremely doubtful, from what the Deputy-Speaker said, whether I should be in order, but I have a few remarks to make on the wider Order as to the regulation of the landings of foreign fish and the observations of the right hon. Member for Caithness. It is a mystery to me how he gets away with it with his own fishermen. He made a sort of Free Trade Gladstonian speech advocating, in effect, the unrestricted import of foreign fish and allowing the fishermen to take care of themselves. The only positive measure that he advocated was that the fishermen, including the trawlers, should be prevented from fishing certain areas in the North Sea in order to conserve supplies, so that far from getting more fish they will be worse off still.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: Surely the hon. Member knows that nobody would suggest that the inshore fishermen should not fish where they like. Nobody has ever suggested that inshore fishermen should not go in the Moray Firth, where British trawlers are not allowed to go. They do not do any harm to the stocks of fish or the young fish which swarm into those shallow waters, but the trawl nets kill the young fish by millions. That is what depletes the stock of fish in the sea.
  Mr. PETHERICK: I had no intention of misrepresenting the right hon. Gentlemen. I agree with him that inshore fishermen should be allowed to fish pretty well where they like, but it is difficult from time to time to establish exactly what an inshore fisherman is, and it may be difficult to apply restrictions to a trawler which in certain cases you should apply equally to an inshore fisherman.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: Within the whole of the three-mile limit.
  Mr. PETHERICK: I agree that a case can be made out for protection in certain waters, but by putting a prohibition on in certain smaller areas you will not solve the problem; nor will you solve it by regulating foreign landings. That is
  1044
  merely one of the methods of approach. The right hon. Gentleman said that previous Orders were not operative be cause prices were falling all the time—
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: Because foreign landings were falling.
  Mr. PETHERICK: Because foreign landings were falling. It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that, if it had not been for these Regulations, we should have had further foreign imports. We know that every country in the world is doing everything possible, in respect of fish and any other product, to get rid of them and to get currency, and to improve their foreign trade. I believe that, during these difficult times, you will find, not a falling off in foreign imports, but a very sharp rise. I never heard of any of these fishermen who did not welcome regulation of foreign imports and who would not like, if he had his way, to increase and strengthen the regulation and prevention of further foreign landings.
  It seems to me a matter of extreme importance that, in the negotiations which the Government have in progress with foreign countries, nothing should be given away, so far as fishing interests are concerned, and that the quota of imports from foreign countries which sell their fish to this country should by no means be raised; if anything, the quota should be somewhat drastically reduced. I would mention one small case which I think should receive attention during the negotiations with Norway. It has come to my notice that, within the last fortnight—I believe this is not the only case of the kind—there have been shipments or sales of Norwegian fish in the London market, and that the fish has been sent here to be sold at 6d. per stone under the lowest cost of similar English fish. I refer to boxed fish. It is most important not only that that practice should be ended in the trade agreement with Norway, but that the quota should be, not for boxed fish and for fresh fish, but that the two different forms of fish imports should be treated differently.
  I would ask the Minister whether there will be an opportunity of discussing the second Report of the Sea-Fish Commission. I did not agree very much with the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Liberal benches, but I agreed that

  1045
  the Commission ignored very largely the claims of the inshore fishermen and devoted nearly all their attention to the trawling industry. I do not minimise in any degree the tributes which the Minister paid to that Commission for the energy and ability with which it carried out its work, but I think that in many respects its Report was one of the most deplorable Reports that I have ever seen. I do not wish to go in detail into it now, but it is essential, before the Minister and the Government give further effect such as in the case of the Herring Fisheries Act, to this Sea-Fish Commission's report, that the report should be discussed most fully in all its aspects by the House of Commons.
  In conclusion, I would add my plea to that of other Members that in these trade agreements with foreign countries the claims of the fishing industry should not be disregarded. At this present crisis of the world's affairs, it is more essential than ever to remember that it may happen—let us hope it will not—that at some future time this country may be engaged in war, and if in the meantime we allow our fishing industry to lapse into desuetude and drive the men away from the ports of our country into other trades, we shall have the greatest difficulty in getting man-power for our Navy, upon which, in another war, we shall depend as much as, and perhaps more than, in the last.
  3.11 p.m.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I am rather disquieted by the warnings which are being given to the Minister from his own side against taking action on this report. I was particularly concerned with what was said by the hon. Member for West Hull (Mr. Law), who answered any criticism in advance by saying that he hoped the Minister would not take action for some time to come, as he had not had the Report before him for a sufficient length of time.
  Mr. LAW: I did not say that. I said that he could not take action now, but that I hoped he would take action, particularly on the question of inshore fishing.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I understood the hon. Member to be giving to the Minister something which the Minister himself
  1046
  used to give to his patients, and which I believe is called a placebo—indeed, more than that, a bromide, in order to dissuade him from taking any action. I am delighted to hear that he is in favour of action being taken on the Report.
  Mr. LAW: Action in the direction of re-organisation.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I should like to deal with another matter to which the hon. Member referred, namely, that of settling sheets. I understood him to say that he did not believe there were any serious grievances in connection with settling sheets. I should not be in order in pursuing the subject in detail, but, as I have been at some pains to bring this matter to the notice of the President of the Board of Trade, who has promised to take definite and explicit action upon it, I should be sorry to allow to pass in the House a statement that there is not in this regard a serious evil calling for immediate and drastic action. Apparently the hon. Member does not regard that matter with sufficient seriousness, but in the Report proof is furnished that men are being swindled by their settling sheets, and action should be taken to stop that. After referring to the method of settling sheets, the Report says:
  "Unfortunately, in practice, these provisions are often disregarded. Deductions from the amount realised by the catch are made in respect of commodities and services not clearly specified at the time of engagement; accounts and settlements are rendered in a variety of forms, many of which have never been approved by the Board of Trade and cannot easily be checked; and the rights of access to an owner's accounts and books and of appeal to the local superintendent are rendered nugatory by the apprehension which undoubtedly exists, whether there are good grounds for it or not, that the exercise of such rights would prejudice a man's employment."
  If the hon. Member will turn to pages 87–89, and pages 104–105, he will find a list of the amounts which have been put on to the commodities supplied to the trawler, and which have purported to have been put in at cost, but which have had various amounts added to them when they are entered on the men's settling sheets. I hope he will join his voice with ours in insisting that, whatever is done, that form of chicanery must be promptly abolished.

  1047
  I was delighted to hear the right hon. Member the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) appealing for greater consideration to be given to this industry. It is true that in size it is not a very large one, but it provides an amount of fish value approximately of £50,000,000 by retail, and, quite apart from that, it has vital aspects of importance which we often tend to overlook. We have heard, for example, the question of defence mentioned, but what is vitally important, the industry consumes 3,500,000 tons of coal per annum and, if it is allowed to fall into decline, that will have a serious repercussion in industrial districts. I will not make a sentimental appeal for these men but I am familiar with their work. I know the arduous lives that are lead by trawl fishermen, far more arduous even than 20 or 30 years ago because, whereas a trawl used to be down for six hours, that period has gradually diminished and it is only about three hours. In all weathers, cold and hot, shooting and hauling the trawl, mending it and gutting the fish. It is no uncommon thing for these men to be 15, 18 or even 20 and more hours on their feet out of the 24. I hope, apart from the ground of the economic importance of the industry, the Minister will look upon it as one requiring his urgent attention.
  It is true that two or three years ago the industry was thought to be in a decline and many serious factors were reducing it to a state of grave depression, so the Government was undoubtedly confronted with a very difficult problem in dealing with it. This was in 1933. When a Government is confronted with a difficult problem there is one thing that it can always do. It can set up a commission of inquiry. Unfortunately in the case of the fishing industry that most convenient of evasions had already been tried three times and at least three times since 1927 it has braced itself to resist some great lurch forward. The Minister set up another commission of inquiry. It has reported, and now we find that the industry, both through some of its spokesmen in the House, the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth and others, is again bracing itself to resist any method of re-organisation whatever. This Order ought never to have been put forward in the face of a letter from the
  1048
  British Trawlers' Federation. I was in the House the other night when the hon. Member for West Hull raised some point in connection with sea fishing conditions and I was greatly interested in what the Minister had to say about the Report and its connection with the Order. He said:
  "It may well be that some further organisation will need to be envisaged by the white fish industry. I am not either recommending that or refusing it. I am saying that this most interesting and valuable report is now before the industry."
  Later on he said:
  "This shows that the Government are interested, sympathetic and vigorous in their reactions to the problems of the trawling industry."
  Finally he said:
  "I am more than pleased to find the white fish industry is taking very seriously the report which has been laid before it by the Duncan Commission."—[OFFICIAL REPORT 27th May, 1936; col. 2160, Vol. 312.]
  That was on 27th May, but on the 3rd April, that is, more than six weeks previously, he had received a letter from the British Trawlers' Federation firmly refusing to have anything to do with the Sea-Fish Commission's Report. How, therefore can he come and tell the House that the industry were taking this Report seriously, and how can he propose to the House to-day to give the Trawler Owners' Federation their Regulation of Landing Order, which was only given to them in 1933 on the understaning that they would take prompt steps to reorganise their industry and set their house in order. I hope that the Minister will tell us something to justify that apparent inconsistency. I do not want to say anything unduly critical of Sir Andrew Duncan and the Sea-Fish Commission's Report. We all know that Sir Andrew Duncan is a gentleman of great capacity and experience, but sometimes I feel that he makes it his job to reconcile the aversion of the Government to any form of re-organisation involving State control—he reconciles the aversion of the Government to that necessity with the imperative and dire need of the industry for re-organisation. If he were allowed to give his frank and unfettered opinion to the Government about these various industries, he would not, I believe, recommend any partial reorganisation, but complete State control.

  1049
  A question which will arise and be of great relevance to us is whether the trawl owners, that is to say, the producers, are suffering so severely from the excessive landings of foreign fish that we ought to give them this measure of protection. I am not speaking of this order as a palliative measure, which it may well be, but there are other factors which are far more important than the excessive supplies and gluts of fish which trouble the trawl industry. You will merely be skimming the surface of the problem if you attempt to deal with it by this Order alone. As I am very anxious to establish the point that this Order is a mere bagatelle in the reorganisation of the industry, I want to say what the Sea-Fish Commission said about it. At the top of page 67 of the Report will be found the Statement that these Orders alone will have little or no effect upon the problems of the industry. On page 68 it is clearly stated that any re-organisation involving only the producers will be of no avail, and that it is essential to bring in the whole vertical structure of the industry from the fishermen's net down to the fishmonger's slab. I hope that there will be no attempt to deal with this by mere partial methods. I hope that the right hon Gentleman will take their pleas of poverty cum grano salts, because we find in the report that in addition to the profits which are shown, there are enormous profits made by subsidiary industries. I think that the hon. Gentleman the Member for South West Hull, who shakes his head, has not read the Sea-Fish Commission's Report. He ought to know that that is at present the bible of the Sea-Fish industry. He will then see that they state explicitly that these profits are made, but they have not been shown in the books.
  Mr. LAW: They state that they have allowed for that in their estimate of the profits of the industry. They say that they have not been able to trace every kind of profit but that what they have missed is not likely to affect materially their estimate of profits.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I think that I can show the hon. Member that they have not seen the accounts of these subsidiary and ancillary companies. On page 23 the report says:
  1050
  "As it was impracticable to ascertain to what extent the distributable profits of separate concerns were derived from sales or services to vessels, no attempt at the adjustment of profits and loss was made in this respect,"
  it is true that they go on to say:
  "but had it been practicable, it would not have altered materially the figures shown in Table XII or in Table XIV."
  They come to that conclusion without having seen the accounts. As I shall show, this supplementary revenue makes a very substantial addition to the trawl-owners profits. If we are to believe the report neither the trawl owners nor the fishmongers have ever made any profit. On the basis of the computation made on page 23 the Aberdeen owners alone in three years lost £346,000 on their trawlers, that is, if we leave out of account all the profit they made on their coal, ice, stores, food and various other subsidiary and separate companies which have not been brought into account.
  Precisely the same considerations apply to the merchants and the fish markets. I have some observations to make which go to the root of the problem. It is stated on page 43 that the fish merchants do not make undue profits. In fact, at Billingsgate they have made a loss for many years according to the report. At all the other ports the margin of sales over purchases is quoted. I will read horizontally the margin of sales at the different ports. 19.2, 19.2, 17, 19.1, 18.9. These figures seem to me to be so near as to have been written down with the desire to
  "lend similitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing story."
  These figures are absolutely inaccurate. I do not mean when I say "inaccurate" that they were not as found by the Commission in the books of the fish merchants, but I think that I can convince the Minister that as an indication of the profits they are making the figures are utterly unreliable. Let me read what is said by the Commission in the earlier part of the report:
  "There are opportunities for petty pilfering and for topping, which is covering up inferior fish with a layer of superior grades, and for stealing custom."
  That is what it says about the fish markets as a whole, and it is borne out by what was said by the previous Commission on the fishing industry. I am indicating to the Minister, if he will only

  1051
  accept it, the very point in the fishing industry which is causing all the trouble. It is found that on the fish markets there are practices known as topping, adding in separate boxes after the fish have been sold, and various other malpractices which have been exposed by every commission which has investigated the fishing industry. In their report they say:
  "The question of selling on commission was carefully considered by the Food Council, who pointed out that the root of the complaints lies in the fact that salesmen act both as merchants, buying and selling fish on their own account, and as commission salesmen on behalf of port wholesale merchants. Such a state of affairs inevitably leads to abuses. In the central food markets of Paris salesmen are required to act as commission agents only and are prohibited from buying or selling on their own account, either in that fish market or elsewhere."
  Speaking of Billingsgate they say:
  "As regards Billingsgate daily prices, we think it important both to the reputation of Billingsgate market and in view of the far-reaching effects of Billingsgate prices on the fish trade as a whole, that the daily prices should be fixed on a basis which is not open to the objections referred to above. If necessary legislative powers should be taken to see that this is done."
  The Minister, I am afraid, will be reluctant to tackle this problem. If he will ascertain where the difference is going between the 1d., 2d. or 3d. per lb. received by the producer and the 7d., 9d., or 1s. per lb. and more received by the retailer he will have got to the core of the sea fishing problem. I have taken the trouble to go round some of the fish markets and shops in order to follow the fish sold in the fish market on to the fishmonger's slab. This is what I found on 17th January. In the Aberdeen fish market on 17th February, North Sea cod was selling at two-thirds of a penny per lb. That was the average price received by the producer. On the Aberdeen fishmonger's slab it was selling at between 6d. and 9d. per lb., and I could not tell whether it was North Sea cod or Iceland cod. As the report says:
  "When the cod reaches the retail market it is neither North Sea cod nor Iceland cod; it is just cod."
  I do not know whether they intended to make a pun or not. Iceland cod was selling at the fish market for less than two-thirds of a penny per pound and on the fishmonger's slab at between 6d. and 9d.
  Sir W. LANE MITCHELL: Was it the same fish?
  Mr. GARRO JONES: Do you imagine that the fish merchants of Aberdeen go to another place in order to buy their requirements at a higher price?
  Sir W. LANE MITCHELL: The best fish would not have gone on the slab.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: North Sea cod is the best cod that could be obtained at that time of the year, and it was selling at two-thirds of a penny per pound in the fish market and from 6d. to 9d. in the fishmonger's shop. I am speaking from my own knowledge, and I have always been extremely careful not to give the House any facts which are not accurate.
  Mr. McCORQUODALE: Are there any co-operative societies in Aberdeen and if so, at what price were they selling the fish?
  Mr. GARRO JONES: That interruption encourages me to think that we are getting to the root of the problem. I am not concerned about the price at which the co-operatives or the retailers sell the fish, because it may be that they are not making undue profits. I am telling the Minister that it is in between the trawler in the ports and the fish shops in the different towns that this great discrepancy is to be found, but he will never find it unless there is a drastic investigation into the conditions.
  One of the difficulties is the large number of methods of quoting these fish. We find they are quoted by the score—and we do not know what the size is—by the hundredweight, and by the pound and by the box. There is a great deal of confusion about the actual prices quoted for these fish, and until a method is devised to follow the fish from the fisherman's net to the slab, it will not be possible to get to the root of the trouble in the fishing industry and to bring forward a proper scheme for re-organisation.
  Apart from that, I regret to say that the Sea-Fish Commission was misled by faked books. Many of the books which were seen by that Commission were faked. I am going to read to the House a statement which will confirm what I have just said. We all know there are widespread practices by skilful accountants of altering the books in order to avoid Income Tax. I do not intend to give the

  1053
  source from which I got this statement, except to the Minister, because I get a great deal of useful information from this perfectly legitimate source, and I would rather not announce from where it comes. This is a very authoritative statement, and, referring to fish merchants, it reads as follows:
  "This reticence, while doing business in a hank is in a great measure from a fear that the Income Tax officials may come to know too much, in fact, there is one fish salesman's cashier who is strong in his belief that the paying of big accounts for fish in cash is prompted probably by the same fear, and not by the saving of the 2d. cheque stamp."
  Further on it says:
  "It seems to be natural for people to dodge, if they possibly can, the Income Tax Department, but if this dodging is carried to excess it may have far-reaching results."
  Here we have Nemesis following on these gentlemen.
  "Take, for instance, the recommendation of the White Fish Commission that the number of port wholesalers should be reduced. If this is brought into force, it may happen that small merchants who can only show a very small overturn, and who appear by their balance-sheets to be absolutely uneconomic, may be eliminated. In some cases the balance-sheets may be sound and genuine, but in other instances they may be entirely wrong and give a hopelessly wrong impression. It is known that there are merchants who fear this elimination recommendation because for years they have been doing two or three times more business than is shown in their books. They buy with cash and they sell for cash, with very few cheques coming their way. Their businesses are certainly remunerative and economic, but unfortunately this White Fish Commission business has cropped up, and they anticipate having to answer very awkward questions to someone."
  I hope the Minister will see that those questions are answered. Also will he make some inquiry why the accountants of this Sea-Fish Commission, against whom I have no complaint, should have been honorary accountants? Surely it would have been better to have had professional men doing their job on this important work. I cannot think that the vast amount of work necessary, a purely professional occupation, could have been properly done by honorary accountants.
  Mr. MAITLAND: The hon. Member has made a very serious charge against practising accountants, a charge which I venture to say is not substantiated. There are many members of the accountants'
  1054
  profession who are only too glad of the opportunity of rendering service to a Government, whatever its political complexion, and who in so doing regard themselves as rendering a service to the State. The hon. Member said that there were accountants who attempted so to arrange matters as to deceive the Income Tax authorities, but the practice is one with which accountants have no concern, and it is well known throughout the country, I think particularly by the Treasury, that the accountant regards himself as in a special sense a custodian on behalf of the Treasury, and that he will not lend himself to such practices as those which have been mentioned.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: Let me make it perfectly clear to the hon. Member that I did not intend to make any reflection on the honourable profession of chartered accountants, but I do adhere to my statement that books are so dealt with, whether it is a question of "evasion" or "avoidance," as to ensure that there is the lowest possible amount of Income Tax payable. I adhere to that statement, and I think the hon. Member would not deny that accountants use their skill in order to see that the lowest possible amount of Income Tax is paid. I am not suggesting for a moment that there is any dishonesty on the part of chartered accountants. Nevertheless the consequence is as I have indicated. As regards the honorary accountants to the Sea-Fish Commission, I cannot understand how two busy and competent accountants could spend so much time as was necessary to investigate a vast industry of this kind. I am extremely sorry if the Minister thinks I am occupying the House too long, but I represent an important fishing constituency and I have been waiting to speak. I hope that the Minister will have a further opportunity of dealing with this Order. What the Minister wishes to do is to curtail my remarks in order to get this Order before Four o'clock, for the simple reason that otherwise it will be too late to get it except between 11 o'clock and midnight on Monday. It is asking too much of the House that when a Commission has investigated such an important industry as this, and when for the first time we have an opportunity of debating an Order which goes to the very root of the problems of the industry, it should

  1055
  be brought up at 2.30 on a Friday after noon with an ultimatum that unless the Government get the Order by 4 o'clock it will be too late for the Minister to get it—
  Mr. ELLIOT: It has nothing to do with that. It is merely that my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) is also interested in this subject and has sat here for a long time waiting, and we are anxious to know his opinion to-day.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I sincerely hope that the Debate will not be concluded to-day.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: Is it true that there is some reason why this Order should be passed by Monday, that we must give the Minister the Order and that it has to be passed by Monday?
  Mr. ELLIOT: That is so, but the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) has also a contribution which he desires to make to the Debate.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I will postpone my remarks but I wish to protest against this method of dealing with the Order. If the Minister does not get this Order to-day he will be too late to get it except between 11 and 12 o'clock on Monday night, 12 o'clock being the time at which the guillotine falls under the Statute. I submit that we ought to have had much more time for the discussion of this Order. Many hon. Members have observations to make. If he gives a definite undertaking that when the House resumes after the Recess he will use his influence in that direction I am sure that my hon. Friends will assist him to get this Order but unless we are to have an early opportunity of Debating the Report we shall do all we can to prevent this Order being passed at such short notice.
  Mr. ELLIOT: I appreciate the desirability of discussing this matter at greater length but it is also very desirable that we should have this Order before the House adjourns. I desire, and the industry I am sure desires, that the fullest consideration should be given to the Sea-Fish Commission's Report and possible legislative action thereupon, and we hope to be able to lay before the House in the autumn proposals arising out of the
  1056
  Report which will give a full opportunity for debate. If not, of course there will be opportunities during the Debate on the Address and on other occasions, for dealing at length with the position. In those circumstances I hope the House will let us have the Order this afternoon.
  3.47 p.m.
  Mr. LOFTUS: I shall not attempt to deal with the deailed criticisms submitted by the hon. Member for North Aberden (Mr. Garro Jones). He appealed to the Minister to take cum grano salts appeals from the fishing ports. I wish he would come to my constituency and I could show him skippers and sailors walking the streets because our trawling industry is bankrupt and destroyed. When I heard insinuations that appeals for help for this smitten industry were hypocrisy, I wished I could show the hon. Member the many fishermen and trawl owners in my constituency who are suffering bitterly today. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) referred to the depletion of fish in the North Sea and I endorse his appeal. The figures showing the decrease in takings are startling and still more startling are the reports issued by the Government fisheries laboratory at Lowestoft showing not only that the total weight caught is decreasing but that the average size of the fish caught is smaller each year. I ask the Minister to concentrate on this problem but I warn the right hon. Baronet that our Government alone cannot act effectively. There are the Dutch vessels which catch small fish used in meal factories. These vessels in one year caught 350,000,000 undersized plaice and there are German vessels also which, according to a German government report, in one year caught 60,000,000 to 70,000,000 undersized plaice and sole.
  We must tackle that problem to get the North Sea restocked but while this is being done, I could not agree with my right hon. Friend's idea that there should be no restriction of imports. Surely you must keep the industry alive, and to do so you must continue your restrictions. I would, however, ask my right hon. Friend the Minister to remember that restriction by itself is not enough and that the question of how the fish is marketed when landed is very important. If you allow it to be landed in such a way as to break the home market,

  1057
  the position is hopeless. If you allow foreign fish to be landed and sold so much under the English prices you will again break the market. The Sea-Fish Commission recommend that fish shall be landed by monthly instead of yearly quotas, and I hope that recommendation will be carried out, because that again would prevent the sudden breaking of the market. If all foreign fish landed was marketed in the ordinary way and sold by public auction, it would make a vast difference.
  The Sea-Fish Commission also recommend that foreign fish sent in here as filleted fish should be weighed as if they were whole fish, so as not to permit of evasions of the intentions of the Regulation of Landing Order, and I hope my right hon. Friend will bear that also in mind. I thank my right hon. Friend for giving me this time. There is much that I could say, but I wish he could come down and see the state of the small trawlers fishing in the North Sea at the present time, and how desperate is the state of that industry. Do not let us, in considering the trawl-fishing industry, think only of the vast fishing machines, but let us think of the small trawlers that have not great capital resources behind them. I hope that measures will be taken to save these small boats, including the inshore boats, and that we shall not think only of the big trawlers.
  3.53 p.m.
  Mr. ADAMSON: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to represent that in the drafting of the statutory Rules and Orders the language should be simplified. In this Order No. 697 they talk of the landing of sea fish and of the stipulations that are laid down in Section 3 that are to be conformed to by the master of the vessel, otherwise he will be contravening certain Sections of various other Acts of Parliament. Actually the skipper of a trawler is much too busy a man to understand all these things, and we know, in our organisation of these men, what complications they have to meet in these Orders and Acts of Parliament under which they are controlled. If the Minister could simplify these Orders to some extent, so that they would be at least understandable and not like the laws of the Medes and Persians that change not, but be of sufficient clarity as to be appreciable
  1058
  by those who have to operate them, it would be a great advantage to these men. I would commend in this connection the clarity of the language in the Northern fishing portion of the Sea-Fishing Industry Act of 1933. That is couched in language that these men can understand.
  3.55 p.m.
  Mr. ELLIOT: I thank hon. Members for the repression they have exercised on the remarks that they would have wished to make. I fully appreciate the remarks of the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) on the Sea-Fish Commission's Report. I do not think he will expect me to go into detail on this occasion into the questions which he asked me. These important matters require review, and I am going closely into them with the industry. I agree that the closing of the northern waters is in essence going to be a temporary measure. It may be that a further organisation of the fishing industry may well take place on the producers' side as well as on the distributive side, but these matters are all engaging the attention of the industry as a whole. I have a letter of some length from the Trawlers Federation on that point. Since receiving it I have had further interviews with them in connection with the Northern Waters Order, and I put it to them strongly that it would be impossible for the House to continue the protection which is given under that Order unless they took seriously in hand the further organisation of their own house. No doubt it was in virtue of that appeal that they agreed to the contraction of the protection given under the Northern Waters Order, and to take measures to insure a steady supply of fish without glutting the market.
  In all these matters the grievances of the fishermen will have to be considered. Whether they occupy a very large part or not in the actual difficulties of the industry, such grievances occupy a great place in the psychology of the actual working fishermen concerned, and it is important that they should be cleared out of the way. There is also the point that there may be great undisclosed profits in the industry. I can scarcely hope that there are, but these matters will have to be gone into thoroughly. They can only be gone into when there

  1059
  is some form of organisation of producers. All these matters will be taken into review forthwith. They will engage the attention of the industry throughout the summer, and opportunities will arise for debate, either on the Address or later on legislation. I hope that it will be possible to lay proposals before the House to deal with many of the points.
  Resolved,
  "That the continuance in force after the twenty-seventh day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, of the Sea-Fishing Industry (Regulation of Landing) Order, 1936, dated the eighth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, made by the Board of Trade under the Sea-Fishing Industry Act, 1933, be approved."

  ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time upon Monday next.

  DEBTS CLEARING OFFICES AND IMPORT RESTRICTIONS ACT, 1934.
  Resolved,
  "That the Clearing Office (Italy) Order, 1936, dated the tenth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, made by the Treasury under the Debts Clearing Offices and Import Restrictions Act, 1934, a copy of which was presented to this House on the thirteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, be approved."—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]

  PUBLIC HEALTH [EXPENSES].
  Resolution reported.
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to consolidate with amendments certain enactments relating to public health, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Minister of Health under the said Act in exercising any powers of a council, port, health authority, or joint board subject, however, to the recovery of those expenses from the council, authority, or board in question in manner provided by the said Act."

  HOUSING BILL [Lords].
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House, for Monday next.—[Captain Margesson.]

  ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) ACTS.
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1935, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the compulsory acquisition of servitudes or other rights for overhead main transmission lines in and over certain land situate at Portobello, in the city and county of the city of Edinburgh, which was presented on the 25th day of June, 1936, be approved."—[Captain A. Hudson.]

  GAS UNDERTAKINGS ACTS, 1920 TO 1934.
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Banbury Gaslight and Coke Company, which was presented on the 23rd day of June and published, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Sheffield Gas Company, which was presented on the 30th day of June and published, be approved."—[Captain A. Hudson.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 2.
  Adjourned at Five Minutes after Four o'Clock, until Monday next, 27th July.

CIVIL SERVICE.
  CLERICAL CLASSES.
  CLERICAL CLASSES.
  TRADE UNIONISM.
  TRADE UNIONISM.
  RECRUITMENT.
  RECRUITMENT.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT (BOXERS).
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT (BOXERS).
  FUEL RESEARCH BOARD.
  FUEL RESEARCH BOARD.
  WATER SUPPLY (WELL POLLUTION).
  WATER SUPPLY (WELL POLLUTION).
  JAPAN (BRITISH SUBJECTS' TREATMENT).
  JAPAN (BRITISH SUBJECTS' TREATMENT).
  EMPLOYMENT AND WAGES.
  EMPLOYMENT AND WAGES.
  AGRICULTURE.
  AGRICULTURE.
  COAL MINING INDUSTRY.
  COAL MINING INDUSTRY.
  ENGINEERING AND SHIPBUILDING.
  ENGINEERING AND SHIPBUILDING.
AGRICULTURE.
  VEGETABLE PRODUCTION (ACREAGE).
  VEGETABLE PRODUCTION (ACREAGE).
  BARLEY (IMPORTS AND PRICES).
  BARLEY (IMPORTS AND PRICES).

Preamble
AYR BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
DUNDEE BROUGHTY FERRY AND DISTRICT TRACTION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
DUNDEE CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
FALKIRK AND DISTRICT TRACTION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
LANARKSHIRE, RENFREWSHIRE AND DUMBARTONSHIRE EDUCATION AUTHORITIES ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a, and reported from the Committee: Bills to be read 3a to-morrow.

STOKE-ON-TRENT EXTENSION BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments; the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
ROMFORD GAS BILL [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL. MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL.
Committed: The Committees to meet forthwith.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL.
Reported without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.