Sitting of 15 July 1936

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Barnsley) Bill [Lords],
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Plympton Saint Mary) Bill [Lords],
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (St. Helens) Bill [Lords],
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (West Hartlepool) Bill [Lords],
Read a Second time, and committed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  DANZIG.
  Mr. ELLIS SMITHasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will inform the House of the situation in Danzig; and what is the position of the High Commissioner appointed by the League of Nations?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Eden): I understand that, as was arranged at the meeting of the Council of the League on 4th July, the Polish Government are now dealing through the diplomatic channel with the recent incident during the visit to Danzig of the German cruiser "Leipzig," and also that the Government of Danzig have given assurances regarding the personal safety of the High Commissioner. According to an official communique which appeared in the Polish Press of 10th July, the Polish representative in Danzig has informed the President of the Danzig Senate that the Polish Government would not permit the unilateral revision of the Statute of Danzig. Herr Greiser is stated to have declared in his reply that the Senate did not intend to take any exceptional measures.
  Mr. SMITH: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance to the House that His Majesty's Government's representative will pursue a policy at the Geneva meeting in keeping with the spirit and principles of the League?
  Mr. EDEN: In our duty as rapporteur we shall do our best to carry out what is a very unenviable task.
  Mr. MANDER: Do I understand that the High Commissioner is now able to carry out his duties unmolested, and with complete freedom as was the case before?
  Mr. EDEN: I have not heard of any molestation.
  Mr. MANDER: Is he able to function as High Commissioner in the same way as before?
  Mr. EDEN: I should like to see that question on the Paper.
  Mr. DALTON: Is it not the case that an order has been issued in Danzig that all public employés shall join the Nazi party or be dismissed? Is not that a gross breach of Treaty obligations? Are His Majesty's Government taking any action?
  Mr. EDEN: It is new to me. Perhaps the hon. Member will put the question down.
  Mr. E. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can inform the House of the circumstances that led to the decision with regard to trade unions by the supreme court of Danzig at the end of April, 1936?
  Mr. EDEN: This matter is not one which the Council of the League has been asked to consider, and I cannot therefore make a statement regarding it.
  Miss WILKINSON: Can the League give the same protection to trade unionists in Danzig as it is supposed to give to minorities?
  Mr. EDEN: The only point I am making here is that it has never come before the League. The proper channel is through the High Commissioner. It has not come before the Council at all.
  Mr. E. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the violent treatment of

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  prominent members of the Conservative party in the free city of Danzig; and whether he will propose that action be taken to put an end to this violence through the provisions of the League of Nations constitution and the High Commissioner?
  Mr. EDEN: I would refer the hon. Member to my statement in the House on 6th July, to which I have at present nothing to add.
  Mr. SMITH: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to procure photographs of prominent members of the Conservative party who have been treated in this way in order that he may be reinforced with this knowledge at the forthcoming meeting of the League of Nations?
  Mr. EDEN: I must not be taken as accepting the premises in that question.
  Mr. VYVYAN ADAMSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will propose before the Council of the League of Nations that new elections be held in Danzig in view of the admitted irregularity of the last elections; and whether he will propose that to ensure their proper conduct they be held under the protection of an international force?
  Mr. EDEN: I do not think that in existing circumstances, my hon. Friend's suggestion would be likely to serve any useful purpose.
  Mr. ADAMS: How else can freedom of opinion and independence of justice be preserved in Danzig?
  Mr. EDEN: This is a complicated question, including the powers of bodies to insist upon elections.
  Mr. ADAMS: Would it not be one of the best ways of reasserting the authority of the League?
  Mr. EDEN: I am trying to explain that I am not sure that it is a method within our power.
  Mr. MANDER: Is it not clear that Germany would not permit any such election in the present circumstances?

  CHINA (SMUGGLING).
  Sir JOHN WARDLAW- MILNEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the result of his discussions with
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  the United States Government on the subject of smuggling in North China; and whether he expects it to lead to any combined action?
  Mr. EDEN: I have nothing at present to add on this point to the answers given to my hon. Friend on 1st July. As stated in the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Moreing) on 13th July, I do not think there is at the moment any further action which His Majesty's Government could usefully take in the matter.
  Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNE: Am I right in saying that it is now a good many weeks since protests were made to Tokyo on this question, and that there has been no result?
  Mr. EDEN: I should not like to say that there has been no result. If my hon. Friend will look at the reply to which I have referred he will see the stage we have now reached.
  Lieut.-Commander FLETCHER: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that British interests are not seriously affected by this smuggling and, if so, will he consider issuing orders to the Commander-in-Chief of the China squadron?
  Mr. EDEN: It is because British interests are affected that we have taken these steps.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    ARGENTINA.
    Rear - Admiral Sir MURRAY SUETERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will notify the Argentine Government that this House cannot form an opinion of the renewal terms of an Anglo-Argentine trade agreement until the Argentine Government has passed its Transport Co-ordination Bill?
    Mr. EDEN: The Argentine Government are fully aware as the result of representations previously made by His Majesty's Government of the importance attached by public opinion in this country to the passage of the Transport Coordination Bill.

    BRAZIL (BRITISH INVESTORS).
    Mr. LIDDALLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will inform the Brazilian Government that

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    His Majesty's Government desires that the permission by the Rio de Janeiro authorities to the Cantareira e Viacao Fluminense Company and the Leopoldina Terminal Company to adjust their tariffs shall now be issued, so as to terminate the long-continued hardship to British investors?
    Mr. EDEN: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to a question put by him on this subject on 6th July. In the circumstances I do not think that any action on the part of His Majesty's Government is called for at the present time.
    Sir ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this question has been under discussion for at least three years, probably four, and will he make further representations to the Brazilian Government and press for a decision?
    Mr. EDEN: I understand that a decision has been given for an increase of 50 per cent.

    BRAZIL AND MEXICO (BRITISH INVESTORS).
    Sir CHARLES CAYZERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will, in view of the growing prosperity and political stability of Brazil and Mexico, again request the Brazilian and Mexican Governments to honour their obligations upon loans obtained from British investors?
    Mr. EDEN: My hon. Friend may rest assured that His Majesty's Government will always be prepared to give careful consideration to any suggestion on this subject which may be made by the recognised representatives of the British bondholders.

    LEATHER.
    Mr. GRANVILLE GIBSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, prior to the Ottawa Agreements, the imports of dressed leather from Canada, Australia, and India were 6,500,000 square feet and that they now amount to 29,500,000 square feet; that at the same dates the exports to these countries were 4,000,000 square feet in 1931 increasing to 9,500,000 square feet in 1935; and, seeing that a free market is accorded imports into this country and that in many cases prohibitive duties still operate against similar
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    goods exported to the Dominions, he will endeavour, at the forthcoming Imperial Conference, to rectify this position in favour of the home manufacturer?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): I am aware of the facts to which my hon. Friend refers. During any discussions of tariff matters with other Empire Governments, the question of the duty treatment of United Kingdom leather will be kept in mind.
    Mr. GIBSON: Has my right hon. Friend or his Department made any representations to any of the Dominions with regard to implementing Article 11 of the Ottawa Agreement, which would afford a fair competitive opportunity for our exporters in Dominion markets?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am afraid that I cannot charge my memory as to an occasion on which that has been done, but if my hon. Friend will put a question down I shall be glad to answer it.
    Mr. GIBSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that an important branch of the leather trade, namely, leather made from East India tanned hides and skins, is practically debarred from the Australian market as it cannot qualify for the preferential tariff since Australia does not regard as British, for the purpose of this tariff, any material from Empire sources other than Australia and the United Kingdom, and that this leather is therefore dutiable at the general tariff rate of 31¼ per cent.; and will he make representations to the Australian Government that all materials from Empire sources should be regarded as British for preferential tariff purposes?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am afraid the suggestion made by my hon. Friend is not likely to commend itself to the Commonwealth Government, as it would involve a fundamental revision of their present system for determining the qualifications for preference. If, however, he will supply me with details of any cases he has in mind, I will consider whether there is any solution of the difficulty which might be put forward.
    Mr. GIBSON: Will my right hon. Friend note that I actually give an instance in my question? Is it fair and equitable that primary products which are produced entirely within the British

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    Empire should be treated as on the same basis as foreign manufactured goods when they are exported to Australia and should not be recognised as British?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: If my hon. Friend will give me details of the case referred to in the question, I shall be glad to look into it.

    ASSYRIAN REFUGEES.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the present position with regard to the settlement of the Assyrians in Syria; whether the Ghab scheme has been abandoned; and what other proposals are under consideration?
    Mr. EDEN: I regret to have to state that the Council of the League of Nations was obliged at its meeting on 4th July to decide, on the recommendation of its Assyrian Committee, that the plan for settling the Assyrians in the Ghab Valley in Syria should be definitely abandoned. It had been apparent for some time that the plan would encounter technical and financial difficulties. But the Council Committee did not regard these difficulties as insuperable, and the decision to abandon the Ghab plan was only taken after the French Government had informed the Committee officially that, owing to political developments in Syria, it would, in their view, be unwise to proceed with the plan. As regards the future, the Council has instructed its Committee to continue its efforts to find a permanent solution of the Assyrian problem, and as a first step to re-examine the whole position created by the breakdown of the Ghab plan with a view to making recommendations to the Council at its next ordinary Session in September. It is impossible at present to attempt any forecast of the alternative arrangements which the Committee may be able to propose in the very difficult circumstances with which it is faced.
    Mr. MANDER: What is happening in the meantime to the Archbishop's appeal for voluntary funds? Has it been held up?
    Mr. EDEN: I understand not.
    Sir ARNOLD WILSON: May I ask what is happening in the meantime to the Assyrians?
    Mr. EDEN: Assurances have been received from the Iraq Government covering the situation. My hon. Friend will be aware that no one is more disappointed than His Majesty's Government at the turn events have taken.

    ITALY AND ABYSSINIA.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any communication has been received from the Italian Government regarding respect for British rights in and around Lake Tsana?
    Mr. EDEN: No specific communication on this subject has recently been received but on several occasions during recent months the Italian Government have vounteered assurances that they intend to respect British rights in Abyssinia and elsewhere.

    GERMANY AND AUSTRIA.
    Mr. V. ADAMSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will notify the German Government that His Majesty's Government would regard as an unfriendly act any violent infringement of the territorial integrity and existing political independence of the States of Austria and Czechoslovakia?
    Mr. EDEN: I do not consider that the situation calls for any such notification on the part of His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. RILEYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the agreement recently concluded between the Governments of Germany and Austria will affect any existing agreement or undertaking between His Majesty's Government and the Government of Austria; and, if so, what agreement or undertaking will be affected?
    Mr. EDEN: Not according to my present information.
    Mr. RILEY: Has the right hon. Gentleman any knowledge of any correspondence passed between the Austrian Government and the League of Nations on this matter?
    Mr. EDEN: No, Sir, I have no knowledge of that.

    DARDANELLES.
    Mr. A. HENDERSONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that the Italian Government has refused to participate in the Montreaux Conference because of the continuance of the arrangements for mutual aid made between His Majesty's Government and France, Yugoslavia, Greece, and Turkey, he will say what steps His Majesty's Government proposes to take to obviate the difficulty of reaching an agreement between the Powers caused by the absence of Italy?
    Mr. EDEN: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on Monday last by the Prime Minister to a similar question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher) to which I have nothing to add.
    Mr. HENDERSON: Is it not the fact that any agreement which might be arrived at between the Powers represented at the present conference would not have any binding effect upon our Government?
    Mr. EDEN: That is another question.
    Lieut.-Commander FLETCHER: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to the statement of the "Times" correspondent at Montreaux, that the absence of Italy is exercising a dominating influence over the conference?
    Mr. LIDDALLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the reasons for the decision to accept the remilitarisation of the Dardanelles, having regard to the past attitude of British Governments, as shown by the efforts to defend the freedom of the Straits in the autumn of 1922 by the Coalition Government and the terms of the Lausanne Treaty made by the Conservative Government of 1923?
    Mr. EDEN: The request of the Turkish Government is still the subject of negotiation. My hon. Friend will, I am sure, realise that I am not in a position to make a statement at present.
    Mr. H. G. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, having regard to the fact that under the provisions of the agreement signed at Mudania on 11th October, 1922, the cession of the Eastern Thrace
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    and Adrianople to Turkey was on condition that Turkey guaranteed the freedom of the Dardanelles, he will state what adjustments Turkey has been asked to make in return for our consent to the refortification of the Dardanelles?
    Mr. EDEN: The Military Convention signed at Mudania on 11th October, 1922, stipulated that pending the conclusion of a treaty of peace, the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, while taking over the civil administration of Eastern Thrace and Adrianople, would refrain from maintaining troops or constructing fortifications on those areas, or in the areas immediately adjacent to the Asiatic shores of the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus. The Convention ceased to have effect upon the final evacuation of Turkish territory by the allied troops as a result of the various instruments signed at Lausanne on 24th July, 1923, and thus has no connection with the present issue.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is it not the case that the Treaty of Lausanne contains a great many provisions which were regarded the one as balancing the other, and in those circumstances, if one is altered should not the others be altered at the same time?
    Mr. EDEN: My answer tried to show that the arrangement to which my hon. Friend referred was only intended to cover an interim period, which has long since ceased.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: Would the right hon. Gentleman say who is representing the Foreign Office at Montreux?
    Mr. PRICEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the representative of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics at the Montreux Conference has asked for the right to send Russian ships through the Straits in fulfilment of obligations under the League Covenant; and whether it is the policy of His Majesty's Government to oppose this request?
    Mr. EDEN: It is not the policy of His Majesty's Government to oppose any action taken in the fulfilment of obligations under the League Covenant.
    Mr. PRICE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, according to the "Times" correspondent in Montreux—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We are not concerned with the newspaper correspondents.
    Mr. PRICE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, according to various reports on the Continent, it is the opinion of the French Government that we are playing the game of Germany in this matter?
    Mr. EDEN: If anybody has any apprehensions, they should be removed by my speech.

    MUTUAL ASSISTANCE AGREEMENTS.
    Mr. A. HENDERSONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action His Majesty's Government propose to take in view of the representations made by the French Government to His Majesty's Government in favour of terminating the agreements for mutual military assistance made between this country and France, Jugoslavia, Greece, and Turkey?
    Mr. EDEN: No such representations have been made.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the arrangements for the withdrawal of a portion of the British Fleet from the Mediterranean affect in any way the staff plans between Great Britain, France, Yugoslavia, and Greece for mutual support in the event of attack and were made after consultation with and agreement with the States acting with this country?
    Mr. EDEN: The withdrawal of certain units of the British Fleet from the Mediterranean has no connection with the unilateral and provisional assurance of continued support to certain Mediterranean Powers to which I referred in the course of the Debate on 18th June. So far as France is concerned, the hon. Member will be aware that the French Government regard the mutual assurances exchanged between this country and France as cancelled on the withdrawal of sanctions.
    Mr. MANDER: Do I understand that the other assurances remain in full force?
    Mr. EDEN: In the case of our assurances, the position remains as I stated in my speech.
    Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: Have not some of the other countries, Yugoslavia and Greece, for instance, withdrawn their assurances?
    Mr. EDEN: The right hon. Gentleman will see that what I referred to in my speech was our own position, and not that of other countries.

    BRITISH SUBJECT'S IMPRISON- MENT, BARCELONA.
    Mr. MARKHAMasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that Mr. William Robert Lamb, of Beeston, Notts, has recently been sentenced to 17 years' imprisonment at Barcelona; and whether the British Consul there has been instructed to assist him with legal aid if required for an appeal?
    Mr. EDEN: I have no information on this point other than that which has appeared in the Press, but I have called for a report from His Majesty's Consul-General at Barcelona. As regards the second part of the question, I have inquired whether the prisoner is represented by a competent lawyer and on receipt of a reply I will gladly communicate further with my hon. Friend.

    ANGLO-EGYPTIAN CON- VERSATIONS.
    Mr. LATHAMasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any announcement on the form which the military clauses of the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty are to take; and whether, in particular, the period is specified in which the British garrison will gradually give way to an Egyptian force?
    Mr. EDEN: I cannot add anything to the reply which was given to a question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher) yesterday.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    CADETS, DARTMOUTH.
    Sir M. SUETERasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the naval cadets at Dartmouth College undergo

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    any training in aviation; whether arrangements are made for them to make periodical flights in an aeroplane or seaplane; whether the cadets take any trips in a submarine during their course at the college; and, if so, how many?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Sir Samuel Hoare): In reply to the first and second parts of the question, a Fleet Air Arm officer is appointed to the staff of Royal Naval College, Dartmouth, who gives introductory lectures to the cadets on Fleet Air Arm subjects. No practical experience is given at this stage, but on going to sea, midshipmen undergo air courses which include flights in aircraft. It is also the practice, when circumstances permit, for aircraft carriers to visit the vicinity of Dartmouth so that cadets can be given an opportunity to witness air operations from a carrier. In reply to the third and last parts of the question, no special arrangements are made to ensure that cadets go to sea in a submarine, but when any of these vessels are exercising in the vicinity, visits to Dartmouth are arranged for the benefit of the cadets, and it is then possible to arrange trips for some of them.

    HIS MAJESTY'S YACHT, "VICTORIA AND ALBERT."
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether advantage will be taken of the forthcoming cruise of His Majesty's yacht, "Victoria and Albert," to obtain a report on the qualities of this vessel as a sea-boat; and whether her sea-going qualities are in every way adequate for the duties she may be called upon to perform?
    Sir S. HOARE: Whenever a ship makes a cruise it is the practice to observe the sea-going qualities of the vessel. As regards the second part of the question, it must be remembered that the "Victoria and Albert" is 35 years old, and consequently has certain restrictions placed on the use of her machinery. The duties she is called upon to perform must necessarily be subject to these restrictions.
    Mr. EDE: In view of the age of the vessel, is she properly equipped to withstand the rigours of a summer cruise round the British Isles?

    FISHERY PROTECTION.
    Mr. N. MACLEANasked the First Lord of the Admiralty for what reasons His Majesty's ship "Spey" has been withdrawn from assisting the Fishery Board cruisers and taken to Sheerness to be broken up; whether any vessel is to take her place; and, if so, whether he will see that this ship is not a vessel due to be scrapped, but one capable of giving confidence to the fishing communities?
    Sir S. HOARE: His Majesty's ship "Spey" has been withdrawn as her period of useful service has ended, and she is being relieved in the Fishery Protection Flotilla by a new coastal sloop, His Majesty's ship "Kingfisher," which was completed last year. I have no reason to suppose either that the "Spey" did not, or that the "Kingfisher" will not, give confidence to the fishing communities.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Am I to understand that the sloop that is to take the place of His Majesty's ship "Spey" is to be placed in Scottish waters and under the Scottish Fishery Board?
    Sir S. HOARE: I imagine the conditions will be the same for the new ship as they were for the old, but I will look into the hon. Member's supplementary question.
    Sir RONALD ROSS: Are not these converted cruisers very dangerous in bad weather, and is not the new ship which is to replace the "Spey" a much more effective unit for the purpose?
    Sir S. HOARE: I imagine that would be the case?

    MALTA.
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the circumstances which have led to the Institute of Italian Culture in Malta being closed by order of the Malta Government: and why the Italian Consul has left Malta?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): The institute was closed because the. Government was satisfied that it had exceeded the scope of the legitimate functions for which it was established and had become the centre of undesirable activities. The

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    withdrawal of the Consul-General followed upon the recent proceedings before the Maltese courts in which two Maltese were found guilty of offences against the Official Secrets Act. Reports of these proceedings have already appeared in the Press, and I need hardly recapitulate them.
    Lieut.-Commander FLETCHER: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider taking equally effective and decisive action where Italian propaganda is concerned in Palestine?

    PALESTINE.
    Brigadier - General CLIFTON BROWNasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the possibility that the operations in Palestine are being hindered by a lack of mounted troops, he will take steps to secure some cavalry regiments from Egypt to enable the authorities to deal more promptly with the situation?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The importance of mobility is fully recognised and, as I stated in the House, on 8th July, a mechanised cavalry regiment has recently been sent to Palestine.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: In view of the fact that these operations have been hindered owing to the lack of mounted troops, could not steps be taken to get mounted troops from India or some other place?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: That is a matter for the officer commanding troops in Palestine rather than for me. He sees what sort of troops he wants and applies to the War Office for them. It is not for me to express an opinion.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: In view of the fact that the War Office has done away with the mounted troops and has to look elsewhere for them in settling these situations, cannot he get mounted troops from India or Egypt?
    Captain HAROLD BALFOUR: Will the right hon. Gentleman send the Cavalry Militia there?

    KENYA AND NORTHERN RHODESIA (CHILDREN).
    Mr. RILEYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of
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    native and European children of school age in Kenya and Northern Rhodesia and the number of such children, respectively, for whom a regular system of public education is provided?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: As regards the first part of the question, precise information as to the number of native children in Kenya and Northern Rhodesia is not available. The total native populations of the two territories are, however, estimated at 3,000,000 and 1,350,000 respectively. According to the most recent report the number of European children of school age in Northern Rhodesia is 1,331. No figure is available for Kenya. In Kenya, at the end of 1934, the number of European children enrolled in Government and Government-aided schools was 1,827, and the number of native children enrolled was 104,393. In Northern Rhodesia, at the end of 1935, the number of European children enrolled in Government-controlled and aided institutions was 1,045 and the number of native children 93,594.
    Mr. RILEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the provisions made for the education of native children in these territories and what steps is he taking to improve it?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I am not satisfied with education anywhere, but in so far as the money available is being spent, I think it is being well spent.

  AVIATION.

    "CITY OF KHARTOUM."
    Mr. PERKINSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air, seeing that in the official report into the loss of the Imperial Airways flying boat "City of Khartoum" it is stated that 12 lives were lost and that the chief inspector of accidents reported the cause of the accident to be fuel shortage, that the tankage on this aircraft did not provide an adequate reserve of fuel for this flight, and that loss of life would have been reduced if the company had motor boats suitable for proceeding outside the harbour, whether he proposes to take any action?
    Mr. LYONSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air (1) whether, in view of the findings of the

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    inspector of accidents with reference to the accident to the aircraft "City of Khartoum" on 31st December, 1935, an improved type of reserve fuel tankage has been adopted for similar aircraft on the Empire routes;
    (2) whether, in view of the definite finding as to the immediate cause of the accident to the aircraft "City of Khartoum" on 31st December, 1935, being due to loss of engine-power consequent upon exhaustion of fuel supply, the similar machines in the service of Imperial Airways, Limited, have been altered and improved so as to prevent the possibility of any inaccurate indication or the giving of any false reading by the gauge?
    Captain BALFOURasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the same type of aircraft as the "City of Khartoum" is still in use on the Mediterranean air service?
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what action he proposes to take as the result of the Inspector of Accidents' report on the flying boat "City of Khartoum"?
    Mr. CHORLTONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air, with reference to the failure in flight of the "City of Khartoum" due to the insufficient tankage capacity for fuel to meet varying conditions of weather and adjustment, what steps he is taking to ascertain that in all the services of the company concerned this weakness is removed in future?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Philip Sassoon): Two flying boats of the Calcutta type, to which the "City of Khartoum" belonged, are being employed on the Brindisi-Alexandria service; action was at once taken by Imperial Airways, after the accident to the "City of Khartoum," to fit them with additional petrol tankage of 50 gallons' capacity. The provision of this additional tankage removes any question of the adequacy of the fuel supply of these two aircraft when travelling over this route in all weather conditions. It is not possible, owing to peculiarities of construction, to guarantee the absolute accuracy of the petrol gauges used by the Calcuttas, but with the ample margin of petrol given
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    by the additional tankage, this need not for practical purposes be regarded as a source of danger. Carburettor jet settings were at once restored and are now maintained at their normal adjustment. In so far as hon. Members in framing these questions have had in mind the construction of aircraft of other types used or intended to be used on Empire routes, they can, I think, rest assured that every proper precaution is in fact being observed.
    Mr. PERKINS: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the desirability of discussing this matter with the Law Officers of the Crown?
    Mr. MANDER: Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the point as to the provision of motor boats capable of going outside the harbour in the case of a crash of this kind?
    Sir P. SASSOON: I think the inspector of accidents made it clear that it was not a question of any lack of sea-going craft, but of the fact that the accident, for some reason or other, was not duly observed and reported.
    Captain PLUGGE: Arising out of the original reply, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is not the fact that the Calcutta type of aircraft at present employed on that service, has a fuel range of approximately seven hours flight and that the flight from Mirabella to Alexandria has never exceeded five hours, since January of this year except on one occasion and then only by four minutes?
    Mr. GARRO JONES: Is it the case that the first vessel to leave the harbour was a destroyer; that an hour and a-half had elapsed before she left the harbour and that this destroyer was supposed to have been standing by for emergencies; and will the right hon. Gentleman ask the First Lord of the Admiralty the reason for the delay?
    Sir P. SASSOON: I have said that the reason for the delay was the very unfortunate fact that the accident had not been properly reported to the airport authorities.
    Mr. GARRO JONES: Is it not the fact that a mistake was made by the naval authorities, and that it took an hour and a-half for them to receive notification that the aircraft had come down?
    Sir R. ROSS: Is it not the case that the destroyer left almost immediately on receiving the news?

    GERMAN AIRSHIP "HINDENBURG."
    Mr. V. ADAMSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what is the result of his representations to the German Government about the recent and repeated vagaries of the airship "Hindenburg" over the soil of the British Isles?
    Sir P. SASSOON: A reply has not yet been received; there has, in fact, hardly been sufficient time to make a reply practicable.

    AIR SERVICES, FRANCE.
    Mr. SIMMONDSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that the French Government has made the granting of permits to operate certain air services between this country and France conditional on adherence to a scale of minimum fares and freight rates: whether this scale is applied to all companies operating between the two countries; and whether His Majesty's Government is in any way a party to this arrangement?
    Sir P. SASSOON: With the exception of Imperial Airways Limited, British air transport companies operating to France have hitherto done so under short-term permits issued by the French Air Ministry, and I am aware that, in the case of the London-Paris service, the French Air Ministry made it a condition of extending the permits of those companies beyond 31st March, 1936, that they should conclude an agreement regarding timetables and rates with Air France. I may add that this arrangement did not apply to all companies operating between the two countries, but only to those which operated between London and Paris under short term permits. His Majesty's Government are not a party to the arrangement, although the correspondence necessarily took place through official channels.
    Mr. SIMM0NDS: In view of the discrimination against certain companies, can my right hon. Friend say whether His Majesty's Government approve of this conduct on the part of the French Government?
    Sir P. SASSOON: It is certainly not for us to approve or disapprove of the policy of the French Government, who are perfectly entitled to make conditions about air lines running over their territory.
    Mr. SIMM0NDS: Will His Majesty's Government make similar stipulations with regard to French services coming to Britain?
    Sir P. SASSOON: The Air France service is the only one which operates here.

    DONCASTER AND LIVERPOOL (BRITISH SERVICES).
    Mr. SIMMONDSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what action he proposes to take to protect British air services, in view of the fact that certain ticket-booking offices, while issuing tickets to travel by a foreign air transport company between Doncaster and Liverpool, refuse to issue tickets to travel by British air transport companies in the same area?
    Sr P. SASSOON: I am hopeful that some solution of this difficult problem will be found, and I am doing everything in my power to assist to that end.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    CASUALTIES, EGYPT.
    Miss WILKINSONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the recent casualties in the Royal Air Force in Egypt have been due to any alteration in instructions as regards the flying of experimental machines by less experienced pilots, etc., or whether he has any evidence to support the suspicion of sabotage?
    Sir P. SASSOON: The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.

    DISPLAY, HENDON.
    Mr. DAYasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he has had a report from the committee administering the fund to be devoted to charity and derived from the proceeds of the recent air pageant held at Hendon; and can he state the number of persons who paid for admission to this pageant and the amount which will be devoted to charity?
    Sir P. SASSOON: The balance sheet has not been received, and the information for which the hon. Member asks will not be available for some time.
    Mr. DAY: Is there any reason for the delay in the issue of the report?
    Sir P. SASSOON: It is being done in the ordinary and normal way.

    ITALO-GERMAN AIR AGREEMENT.
    Captain ALAN GRAHAMasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the terms of the recent air agreement between Italy and Germany, and especially those in regard to the use of the Dodecanese islands?
    Sir P. SASSOON: I regret that I am unable to give the terms of this agreement. Precise information regarding it has not yet been received.
    Captain GRAHAMasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will review the present position of British air-power in regard to land bases in the Eastern Mediterranean, with special reference to the recently concluded Italo-German air agreement and the Dodecanese Islands?
    Sir P. SASSOON: I am not sure what is the precise point which my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind, but I can assure him that British air interests in the Eastern Mediterranean are kept constantly under review.

  DEFENCE.

    REARMAMENT PROGRAMME.
    Mr. A. HENDERSONasked the Prime Minister whether the anxiety of the member States of the League of Nations that the rearmament programme of His Majesty's Government should be carried out at the earliest possible date has been expressed verbally or in writing, and whether through the usual diplomatic channels or at Geneva?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I have every reason to believe that a strong United Kingdom is regarded abroad as constituting a powerful guarantee for peace, but the strengthening of the British armed forces is not a matter on which formal representations are likely to be made by foreign governments to His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. HENDERSON: What is the justification for the statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty in a speech last Saturday, that every member State of the League of Nations was anxious that the rearmament programme of the Government should be carried out at the earliest possible date?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I rather assumed that the hon. Member had read the speech of my right hon. Friend, and I refreshed my memory on it. I have not consulted my right hon. Friend, but I imagine that his reason for making that statement is the same one that I should have. It is the result of our experience and of the experience which the hon. Member would learn in three months time if he were a member of the Foreign Office in London.
    Mr. HENDERSON: Is it true or untrue to say that every member State has expressed anxiety as to the rearmament programme of his Majesty's Government; have representations been made, and, if so, when were they made?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That is answered quite plainly in the reply to the question.
    Mr. HENDERSON: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Prime Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

    TECHNICAL STAFF.
    Mr. H. G. WILLIAMSasked the Minister for the Coordination of Defence whether he is satisfied that there is a sufficient supply of trained technical staff, such as draughtsmen, craftsmen, etc., available to meet the demands of the emergency programme for armaments being designed or dealt with in Government factories and establishments; and whether the scale of salaries and wages paid in Government Departments is the same as that paid in private establishments for the same class of work?
    The MINISTER for the CO-ORDINATION of DEFENCE (Sir Thomas Inskip): So far the demands of the programme have been met, and although it will be necessary to pay careful attention to the position, there is no need for anxiety at present. As regards the second part of the question, the general principle, as my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, is in

    2037
    conformity with the fair wages principle to endeavour to relate salaries and wages in Government employment to those prevailing outside for the same type of work.

    SERVICES (COMBINED EXERCISES).
    Sir M. SUETERasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether any combined major manoeuvres with the Navy, Army, and Air Force have taken place since the Armistice; if so, on how many occasions; and who is responsible for advising the Government that combined manoeuvres with the three fighting services should be periodically undertaken?
    Sir T. INSKIP: A large number of combined exercises have been held since the Armistice in which the Navy, Army and Air Force have taken part. Combined operations exercises of a major nature have with few exceptions been held annually at Singapore, Hong Kong and Malta, and from time to time at other stations overseas on a smaller scale. At home, exercises were held in 1935, 1934, 1932, 1931, 1930, 1928, and on other previous occasions. As regards the latter part of the question, the holding of combined exercises is a matter for the staffs of the three Services concerned, and, as will be seen from the answer to the first part of the question, the necessity has not arisen for the Government to lay down that such exercises should be periodically undertaken.
    Mr. MANDER: Is it proposed to hold any joint manoeuvres with those foreign countries such as France and Belgium with whom we have staff technical arrangements, or has that been considered?

    MINISTER'S DUTIES.
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence what proportion of the time of his office is taken up by consideration of questions of supply and what proportion by consideration of large questions of strategy?
    Sir T. INSKIP: The questions are often inseparable, and I could not allocate or contemplate an allocation of my time between them.
    Lieut.-Commander FLETCHER: In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman's appointment was mainly in connection with strategic questions, is not his time being unduly overburdened with questions of supplies?
    Sir T. INSKIP: I carry out my duties to the best of my ability in this and other matters.

    FOOD SUPPLIES.
    Mr. DONNERasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether the special sub-committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence set up to examine the problem of food supplies in the event of war is considering the possibilities of increasing the home production of agricultural products as well as the storage of grain and other supplies?
    Sir T. INSKIP: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. BENJAMIN SMITHasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence whether he will consider taking by purchase the whole of the surplus wheat now stored in Canadian silos with the object of creating a reserve sufficiently large to render this country immune from any shortage in the event of war?
    Sir T. INSKIP: I have noted the hon. Member's suggestion.
    Mr. SMITH: Did the right hon. Gentleman note that the First Lord of the Admiralty, speaking last week, stated that there were not more than three weeks' supply of foodstuffs in the country in the event of war?
    Sir T. INSKIP: With all respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think he is in error in saying that that is what the First Lord stated.
    Mr. SMITH: The Press stated it, anyhow.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence the number of weeks' supply of essential foodstuffs there are in the country at the present time?
    Sir T. INSKIP: The stocks of different foodstuffs vary very greatly. I have already given information in regard to wheat in the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr.

    2039
    Liddall) on 10th June. If my hon. and gallant Friend will specify the other foodstuffs which he has particularly in mind, I will arrange for the information to be supplied to him.
    Lieut.-Colonel AC LAND - TROYTE: May we take it that the statement attributed to the First Lord with regard to six weeks is incorrect?
    Sir T. INSKIP: The First Lord, with all respect, did not say that we should be starved in six weeks. He said that if we had no Navy, we should suffer that fate.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: That is what I asked. Is it a fact that if we had no Navy we should be starved in six weeks?
    Sir T. INSKIP: If we had no Navy, no doubt we should suffer a great many consequences.
    Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHS: Is it not a fact that the supply of margarine is suffering because the Army, Navy, and Air Force are eating it all up every week?

    GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS (SPECIAL AREAS).
    Mr. JENKINSasked the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence the total value of orders placed in the United Kingdom in connection with the Government's re-anmament proposals; and similar information for the Special Areas of South Wales and Monmouthshire, and the North-East Coast, respectively?
    Sir T. INSKIP: As the Prime Minister stated on 22nd June, consideration has been given to the question whether a method can be devised of making particulars of Government contracts placed in the Special Areas avail able. I hope to be able to give some information at an early date.
    Miss WILKINSON: Has the Cabinet yet considered that other-things-being-equal clause, which in fact renders nugatory any attempt on the part of the Cabinet to allocate a reasonable allowance to the distressed areas?
    Sir T. INSKIP: The hon. Lady is in error in saying that that provision has been nugatory, and if she will await the statement which I hope to make in a few days, she will see that that is the case.

  SCOTLAND.

    GRAMPIAN ELECTRICITY SUPPLY COMPANY.
    Captain RAMSAYasked the Minister of Transport how the price charged to the general commissioners for the grid by the Grampian Electricity Supply Company compares with that supplied to the county of Angus?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Hore-Belisha): My hon. and gallant Friend will find the available information in the Annual Return of Statistics of Electricity Undertakings, particularly on pages 668 and 669. There is no distinction made between receipts in the county of Angus and receipts in other parts of the company's area.
    Captain RAMSAY: Does my right hon. Friend consider that the difference in the price charged respectively is a fair one, in view of the fact that this company is receiving a special rate concession from the county of Angus, and, if not, will he have inquiry made to see whether any adjustment can be made?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I do not accept the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question, and, therefore, the second part does not arise.

    ILLEGAL TRAWLING, FIRTH OF FORTH.
    Mr. N. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he can make any statement of the results of the investigation into the illegal trawling in the Firth of Forth, on 14th January, 1936, when the Pittenweem motor-boat had an encounter with a trawler and succeeded in destroying the nets?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Lieut.-Colonel Colville): I understand that a charge of illegal fishing against the skipper of the Cockenzie boat "Restless Wave" was made but was withdrawn when the case came into court, because the Procurator Fiscal found on investigation that there was not sufficient evidence to support it. A charge of failure to have a fishing buoy properly marked was admitted and the court imposed a fine of £1. The other incident in which the crews of the two boats were concerned involves a question on which it would not be expedient for me to express an opinion.

    FISHERY BOARD
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the reason for Provost J. Merson leaving the Fishery Board; whether his attention has been called to his complaints of having found too little to do and that during his five years on the board his activities had been curbed; whether he has caused any inquiries to be made into these complaints; and whether he proposes to give wider powers to the Fishery Board?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: The statutory term of office of the members of the Fishery Board for Scotland expired in January last and in selecting the new board my right hon. Friend decided to give an opportunity of service to some new members which to his regret necessarily meant omission of some of the former members. Provost Merson has made no complaint to my right hon. Friend on the lines suggested in the question and no inquiries have therefore been made. An extension of the powers of the board does not appear at present to be necessary, but if the hon. Member would give me particulars of what he has in mind the matter would be considered.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Has not the attention of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman been drawn to the speech made by Provost Merson in which be made severe complaints about the lack of opportunity on the Fishery Board for doing anything for the fishing industry, and in view of that speech, which must be in the archives of the Scottish Office, will he make further inquiry into the matter to see whether or not Provost Merson's charges are justified?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: There are many Press cuttings in the archives of the Scottish Office, but Provost Merson has not communicated with my right hon. Friend.

    ELECTRICITY GENERATION.
    Captain RAMSAYasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the Victoria Falls Power Company now finds it cheaper to produce electrical power from coal than from water; whether he will have the matter examined with a view to determining whether this company's plant is in advance of that of companies producing
    2042
    power from coal in Great Britain; and, if so, whether he will take steps to see that a science so vital to our coalfields is immediately brought up to date?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: As the price of local coal in that part of the company's area, where coal is used for generating, costs from 1s. 10d. to 4s. per ton delivered, my hon. and gallant friend will appreciate that it would be unsound to generalise from such a particular.
    Mr. H. G. WILLIAMS: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the Victoria Falls Power Company have ever found it cheaper to produce from water, since they have never produced power from water at any time?

  TRANSPORT.

    TRAFFIC SIGNS.
    Commander LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Minister of Transport whether, in views of the fact that Circular No. 429. (Roads) asks highway authorities to consult with chief officers of police before deciding at what points to erect the new signs "Halt at Major Road Ahead," he is satisfied that this is being carried out in dealing with the increasing number of these signs at points where they do not appear to be necessary; and whether he is aware that no indication is given as to the point at which drivers should halt where these signs have been erected?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: If my hon. and gallant Friend will call my attention to any particular case where, in his view, a sign of this character has been erected inadvisedly, I will cause inquiries to be made. As to the latter part of the question, the sign itself requires the driver to halt at the major road.
    Mr. CROWDER: When the road is wide enough, will my right hon. Friend consider having the "Halt" signs put in the middle of the road on an island, so that they can be properly seen by the road users, as at present motorists very often do not see the signs on the side of the road hanging from lamp posts?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am always glad to consider any helpful suggestion.

    CHARING CROSS BRIDGE.
    Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement in regard to the report received

    2043
    from the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee on the question of Charing Cross Bridge; and whether he will have the same published in full?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I cannot add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member last week.
    Mr. DAY: In view of the very great importance of this report to the business interests affected, will the right hon. Gentleman say when he hopes to be able to publish it?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am quite ready to consider the publication of this report if I am made aware of any general desire that I should publish it, but it is not customary to publish reports of this nature. The hon. Member will understand that many different interests and authorities are involved, as well as a great deal of public property, but in spite of that, if there is any general reinforcement of the hon. Gentleman's demand, I will consider it.
    Mr. DAY: Does the right hon. Gentleman not know that some of the authorities will not give permission to have certain businesses altered on account of the present prospect of Charing Cross Bridge being built?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I shall, of course, send a copy of the report to the authorities interested.
    Mr. BENJAMIN SMITH: Is it not correct to say that the Press very largely have already summarised that report and have, in fact, practically published it?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Yes, and I take this opportunity of saying that it is most unfortunate. In the case of several of these reports from the London Traffic Advisory Committee, I see extracts from them in the Press before they are sent to me.
    Miss WILKINSON: If the public interest is involved, why does the right hon. Gentleman think the public should not be told these things?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I have already stated that I, personally, have nothing to conceal. This is the report of an advisory committee to me. It involves several local authorities in the London area and
    2044
    a great many other public interests, including the acquisition of property, and I am not convinced that it is in the public interest to publish these reports.

    TRAFFIC REGULATIONS (TRAMCARS).
    Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Transport whether he will, with a view to minimising the number of fatal and other accidents caused to persons using and alighting from tramcars, consult with the various highway authorities for the purpose of introducing legislation or making regulations prohibiting either mechanically-propelled or horse-drawn vehicles from passing on the near side of tramcars from which passengers are alighting?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The number of fatal accidents to persons boarding or alighting from stationary tramcars fell from 28 in 1933 to 14 in 1935. Where the practice referred to is a cause of danger, the existing law provides severe penalties already. I would further direct the hon. Gentleman's attention to paragraph 27 of the Highway Code.
    Mr. DAY: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that if this improvement would prevent 14 fatal accidents, it is worth introducing some regulations?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Yes, if that were the case, but the hon. Gentleman will realise that the practicability of doing so is involved. In many cases tramcars have both their lines on one side of the road, and therefore to adopt this suggestion would be, on the Embankment, for instance, to immobilise all other traffic altogether.

    ELECTRIFIED RAILWAYS (DEATHS FROM ELECTROCUTION).
    Mr. MICHAEL BEAUMONTasked the Minister of Transport how many deaths from electrocution occurred on the lines of electrified railways in 1935 to ordinary civilians and to people employed on the lines, respectively?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Three employés and eight civilians, all the latter being trespassers.

    ROAD TRAFFIC ACT (PROSECUTIONS, MANCHESTER).
    Mr. THORNEasked the Minister of Transport whether he can give the House any information in connection with

    2045
    the four Manchester firms that were sum-money for offences under the Road Traffic Act; and whether he can state what were the charges in each case and the fines imposed?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am informed that all the prosecutions in Manchester on 8th July to which the hon. Member apparently refers were on charges of permitting drivers to drive for hours in excess of those allowed by Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930. The number of offences alleged against the different firms and the penalties imposed were as follow:
    (1) 14 charges; fine £7; £3 10s. 6d. costs.
    (2) 9 charges; fine £4 10s.; £3 10s. 6d. costs.
    (3) 15 charges; fine £7 10s.; £3 10s. 6d. costs.
    (4) 4 charges; fine £2; £3 10s. 6d. costs.
    Seven charges were withdrawn on payment of 28s. costs.
    Mr. THORNE: Is this not another case where your commissioners have to find out this information, owing to the fact that the men working for the firms in question are afraid to give the information to the commissioners?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The hon. Gentleman puts these questions every week, which shows the activity of the authorities in prosecuting. In that North-Western area the Traffic Commissioners are undertaking between 20 and 30 prosecutions every week.
    Mr. THORNE: I quite agree, but my point is that the men working for the firms are afraid to give the information and your commissioners have to dig it out themselves?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Yes, I admitted before that it is the case that there is reluctance to give evidence, but despite that reluctance, the authorities are so active that they prosecute in a large number of cases.
    Mr. BENJAMIN SMITH: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider increasing the number of commissioners and specially allocating them to watching the interests of the 400,000 vehicles that come within the terms of that Act? The
    2046
    numbers, I believe, are only hundreds, and they have passenger as well as goods vehicles to cover. This is very rife, and will the right hon. Gentleman consider increasing that number?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am considering it at the present moment.

    TRUNK ROADS.
    Sir MALCOLM BARCLAYHARVEYasked the Minister of Transport whether the main Perth-Aberdeen road is included among those to be taken over by the Government?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the answer which I gave last Thursday to a similar question by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot).
    Sir M. BARCLAY-HARVEYasked the Minister of Transport whether, now that he is taking over the responsibility of the main trunk roads, he is prepared to construct new trunk roads?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The answer would involve too general a prediction as to what may or may not be done in future.
    Sir M. BARCLAY-HARVEY: As there are roads which would be of public utility but which for financial reasons the county councils are not able to construct, will my right hon. Friend consider undertaking the making of such roads?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Every case will be considered on its merits.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT.
    Mr. M. BEAUMONTasked the Minister of Transport what was the number of officials employed by the roads department of the Ministry of Transport for the year 1928–29, and what is the present number; and what was the cost of the staff of that department for 1928–29 and for the year ended 31st March, 1936?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: As legislation between the two dates mentioned has necessitated many changes in organisation, it is difficult to furnish comparable figures, but I will send my hon. Friend a tabular statement giving him detailed information.

    LAND REGISTRY.
    Mr. JAMES HALLasked the Attorney-General whether he is aware that complaints have been made by the uniformed staff employed at His Majesty's Land Registry at Lincoln's Inn Fields as to the inadequacy of the mess-room facilities provided; and whether it is proposed to improve these facilities?
    The ATTORNEY - GENERAL (Sir Donald Somervell): I am aware that complaints have been made. The Chief Land Registrar is in negotiation with His Majesty's Office of Works, who are responsible for the facilities referred to in the hon. Member's question, with a view to improving them.

    HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE (OFFICIAL SHORTHAND WRITERS).
    Mr. LOFTUSasked the Attorney-General whether he is now in a position to give any information regarding the proposed institution of a system of official shorthand writers in the Courts of Justice; whether the committee on this subject, presided over by Mr. Justice Atkinson, has yet presented any report; and whether he can make any statement upon the nature of the report and the policy of His Majesty's Government thereon?
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The committee presided over by Mr. Justice Atkinson has not yet presented its report, but hopes to do so at an early date. In those circumstances it would be premature to make any statement upon the matter.

    THE "FASCIST."
    Commander LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Attorney-General whether he proposes to institute legal proceedings against the authors or publishers of an article in the publication called the "Fascist," 4th July, 1936, containing allegations against Jews of the practice of ritual murder?
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: This matter is now under consideration.

    RENT RESTRICTIONS ACTS.
    Mr. W. ASTORasked the Minister of Health whether he can make a state-
    2048
    ment regarding the approaching expiration of the Rent Restrictions Act; and whether he can indicate what the general policy of the Government on this question will be?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Shakespeare): The Rent Restriction Acts continue in operation until 24th June, 1938, and my right hon. Friend does not think that the time has yet come to consider what future action may be required.
    Mr. ASTOR: In view of the complication of this subject and the fact that there is much uneasiness among many tenants, will the hon. Gentleman take early steps to announce a policy and to investigate the matter whether by Departmental inquiry or by Royal Commission?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: My hon. Friend can rest assured that we shall do the right thing.

    WHITLEY AND MONKSEATON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL.
    Mr. THORNEasked the Minister of Health whether he can give the House any information in regard to the surcharge on the members of the Whitley and Monkseaton Urban District Council for the cost of the illuminations in the autumn of last year at Whitley Bay; whether he can state the amount of the surcharge; and what steps have been taken for its payment?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: No surcharge has yet been reported to my right hon. Friend by the district auditor.

    FOODS AND DRUGS INSPECTOR, ISLINGTON.
    Mr. W. ROBERTSasked the Minister of Health for what reason Mr. G. S. Green was transferred from his position as inspector under the Food and Drugs Act under the Islington Borough Council contrary to the terms of his appointment; and whether such transfer has the Ministry's approval?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The Sanitary Officers Order, 1926, provides that where a local authority has two or more sanitary inspectors it may distribute among them the duties which have to be performed by a sanitary inspector. The

    2049
    approval of my right hon. Friend is not required to any such distribution of duties.

    POST OFFICE (TELEPHONE SERVICE).
    Sir R. ROSSasked the Postmaster-General what profit, if any, was made on the operation of telephone services for a year up to the latest convenient date?
    The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Walter Womersley): The telephone surplus for the year ended March, 1935, was £1,685,000. The final figures are not yet available for the year ended last March.
    Sir R. ROSSasked the Postmaster-General what would be the estimated additional annual cost to the Post Office in granting the same telephone rates to and from Northern Ireland as are enjoyed by the rest of the United Kingdom?
    Sir W. WOMERSLEY: The present traffic to and from Northern Ireland is increasing rapidly, and nine additional circuits are being provided to carry it. The abolition of the cable charges would necessitate still further circuits, and their provision is being studied; but as new technical methods are involved it is not possible at present to estimate the cost. When the investigations are completed and the approximate cost of the necessary circuits is known, the question of abolishing the cable charges will be further considered.
    Sir R. ROSS: Can my hon. Friend tell me how soon it would be useful to put down another question? Is he aware that great distress is being felt in Northern Ireland at being excluded from the principle of uniformity of charge which is extended to everywhere else in the United Kingdom?
    Sir W. WOMERSLEY: I can assure my hon. Friend that the Postmaster-General and I are giving very grave consideration to this matter, for we are very desirous that Northern Ireland should have the same privileges as the rest of the United Kingdom, but I would not suggest that my hon. Friend should put down a question this side of the holidays.

    TERRITORIAL ARMY (TRAINING FACILITIES).
    Captain ARTHUR EVANSasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is in a position to state in what manner large industrial undertakings are responding to the appeal to encourage their employés to enlist in the Territorial Army by an assurance that no loss of pay will be incurred during periods of training?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Sir Victor Warrender): While my right hon. Friend has no definite statistics bearing on this point, he understands that an increasing number of employers throughout the country are encouraging their men to join the Territorial Army by ensuring that they are not penalised financially or otherwise, and that they are assisted to attend the annual camp of their unit. As my right hon. Friend explained to the House yesterday, the numbers required for the Territorial Army are still causing much concern, and he hopes that the example shown by some employers will be more widely adopted now that the needs are more fully appreciated.
    Mr. GALLACHER: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Members of this House are organising a movement to boycott shopkeepers who do not encourage their employés to join the Territorials, and does he approve of such methods?

  BRITISH ARMY.

    RECRUITING.
    Mr. LEACHasked the Secretary of State for War what steps his Department has taken recently to secure Press publicity on behalf of recruiting; and whether in any announcements issued by his Department with this end in view he will take steps to make clear that margarine and not butter is served in Army rations?
    Sir V. WARRENDER: Classified advertisements are inserted in the Press to encourage recruiting, and a recruiting publicity bureau was established on 1st January last in order to give to the Press every facility for presenting to the public material relating to Army life. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. LEACH: May I ask why the answer to the second part of the question is in the negative? Does it mean that the Department is ashamed of the fact and dare not advertise it? Can the hon. Gentleman say when the months of wearisome departmental discussions on this matter are to end in some conclusion?
    Sir V. WARRENDER: I am not aware that there has been any change in the position which existed when the hon. Gentleman himself adorned one of the Defence Services.
    Mr. LEACH: Has not the time come for a decision to be made after the long discussions that have been going on?
    Sir V. WARRENDER: A decision will be come to in due course.

    INFANTRY BATTALIONS.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND TROYTEasked the Secretary of State for War whether any steps have been taken to raise the four extra infantry battalions proposed in Command Paper 5107; and whether he can state to which regiments these battalions will be allotted?
    Sir V. WARRENDER: No steps have yet been taken; the second part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND TROYTE: In view of the recent appointment to the War Office, may I ask whether a naval officer is to command one of these battalions?

    SOUTH AFRICAN PROTECTORATES.
    Mr. DONNERasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he has yet received any communication from General Hertzog in regard to certain recent declarations made by him concerning the future of the High Commission Territories in South Africa; and, if so, whether he can state the nature of this communication?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): I shall be in a position to make a statement on this subject to-morrow.

    WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION.
    Mr. CASSELLSasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department
    2052
    whether he is prepared to recommend legislation permitting of an appeal by an aggrieved workman or employer from the decision of a single medical referee appointed under the Workmen's Compensation Regulation?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Simon): The system of certification by Medical Referees is now being inquired into by a Departmental Committee, and pending receipt of their report, I am not prepared to consider the question of legislation on the lines suggested.
    Mr. CASSELLS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the House will have information with regard to the result of this inquiry?
    Sir J. SIMON: I do not know that I can say exactly when the information will be available, but I understand that the committee have practically completed the taking of evidence.
    Mr. CASSELLSasked the Home Secretary the number of cases examined by Dr. A. E. Hunter, Falkirk, medical referee under the Workmen's Compensation Acts, in his capacity as medical referee during the years 1933, 1934, and 1935; and in how many of such cases the workmen were certified, respectively, as totally recovered from the effects of accident and as partially recovered and fit for light work?
    Sir J. SIMON: In these three years Dr. Hunter decided respectively 18, 19 and 13 references under Sections 19 and 43 of the Act of 1925. I have no information as to the terms of his decisions on the question of recovery.
    Mr. CASSELLS: Is it not a fact that that information can easily be obtained by the Department? Surely that is so.
    Sir J. SIMON: I have not quite followed the purpose to be served by such an inquiry.
    Mr. CASSELLS: A previous question was asked by me with regard to this same medical referee. I am only making an effort to ascertain his bona fides, and I think this House should be advised of the results of the inquiry.
    Sir J. SIMON: If the hon. Member has any grounds at all for suggesting want of impartiality or bias I am sure he will call my attention to them, and I will gladly have the matter looked into.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: On a point of Order. Has a Cabinet Minister, in the exercise of his functions in answering questions in this House, any right before he will answer a question to demand from the Member who has put the question the purpose there is behind it? If questions are only to be answered when we have given the Minister the purpose behind them, it seems to me it will be the end of questions in this House.
    Mr. SPEAKER: It is not an answer I often hear, but it is sometimes very useful to know what the hon. Member is driving at.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: It may be useful, but that is not the point. I want to press this point. Once a question has been allowed, is the Minister entitled to ask, before he will give an answer, the purpose which is in the hon. Member's mind? Is it not for you, Mr. Speaker, if the question is not correct, to rule it out?
    Sir J. SIMON: May I respectfully say that I should be very sorry not to deal with the hon. Member fairly, but the question was a supplementary question, and if he wants further information it is extremely difficult to direct inquiries intelligently unless I get some idea of the purpose.
    Mr. MAXTON: May I put it to you, Sir, that the question on the Paper—not the supplementary question—was perfectly specific, and the Minister stated that he would not reply until he knew what the hon. Member's motives were? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] What was his answer to the specific question on the Paper, not the supplementary question?
    Mr. CASSELLS: In view of the unsatisfactory reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment at the first available opportunity.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. ATTLEE: May I ask what the business will be on Friday?
Sir J. SIMON: On Friday, after the Second Reading of the Cattle Industry Bill, we hope that there will be time to consider the Sea-Fishing Industry (Regulation of Landing) Orders, which are on the Paper.
Mr. GARRO JONES: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that unless there is a substantial amount of time for the consideration of these Sea-Fishing Orders, which involve the whole question of the Sea-Fishing report, which has never yet been discussed, he will not attempt to take them on Friday afternoon after, say, half-past one?
Sir J. SIMON: I cannot fix a time for it. We shall have to see how we get on. I said that I hoped there would be time.

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [16TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]

  SUPPLY.

    CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1936.
    CLASS VI.
    BOARD OF TRADE.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a sum, not exceeding £175,940, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade, and Subordinate Departments, including certain Services arising out of the War."—[Note.—£84,000 has been voted on account.]
    3.51 p.m.
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): For the convenience of the Committee I propose to give a general survey at the beginning of the Debate and deal with the Estimates as a whole, leaving questions and individual points for discussion later in the proceedings. There has been another year of marked progress in nearly all the principal industries of the United Kingdom, with two notable exceptions, to which I must refer later, coal and cotton. Progress has been remarkable in all industries supplying the home market. It has been slower in the export trades, but still continues to be in the right direction. Improvement has been widespread, but by no means uniform. It has occurred in varying degrees in nearly all the areas and in almost every branch of trade and industry. This is best illustrated by the unemployment figures. The number of insured persons in employment in Great Britain last month, excluding agricultural workers, was over 440,000 more than in June, 1935, and the number of unemployed was nearly 300,000 less.
    The decreases in unemployment varied geographically from 84,000 in the North-East division to 4,000 in Wales and, as between the more important industries, they ranged from 31,000 in engineering to 8,000 in wool. One of the best tests of prosperity in this country is to be found in the railway receipts. In spite of the competition by road and by sea,
    2070
    railway receipts were about £1,830,000 higher in the first six months of this year than in the corresponding period of 1935. Improved receipts from freight traffic accounted for nearly the whole of this increase. During the same period, postal receipts, another good test of great activity, increased by nearly 4 per cent. compared with the first six months of 1935. Bank clearances increased by nearly 7 per cent. Retail sales are difficult to ascertain, but we are able to make some comparison with former years in this department of activity. Retail sales may be regarded as one of the tests which can be applied to the whole country. These sales during 1935 were 6 per cent. more than in the previous year. The expansion continued this year, and sales in the first five months of 1936 were about 7½ per cent. more in value than a year earlier. Sales of food and perishables increased by about 9½ per cent., and other merchandise by about 6 per cent. The precise extent to which increases in the money value of retail sales is due to price changes cannot be estimated, but it is certain that the volume of retail sales has increased during each of the last three years.
    Industrial production last year was about 7 per cent. greater than in 1934, and the increase was spread over both the export and the home markets. In the first quarter of 1936 there was an increase of 9 per cent. over the first quarter of 1935. If we turn to the overseas trade, the figures for the first six months of 1935 and of 1936, show that although our export trade has not gone up with the same rapidity as in recent years, it still is increasing. In 1935, January to June, our exports were £206,500,000. In June, 1936, they had risen to £207,900,000. Imports have gone up to an even greater degree. Food, drink and tobacco show an increase from £166,000,000 to £179,000,000. Raw materials, and articles mainly unmanufactured, have gone up from £103,000,000 to £120,000,000. Articles wholly or mainly manufactured have gone from £88,000,000 to very nearly £101,000,000. It is only right to point out, when we are considering the import figures, that we are to some extent gauging the consuming capacity of the principal industries. A large proportion of the imports of which I have just given the figures is used again in our

    2071
    own industries. We need not be alarmed at the speed with which these figures have gone up, provided that year by year we can use up, without too great a strain on our exchanges, the goods which come in for purposes of consumption by our industries.
    A large proportion of the imports, therefore, classified under the heading "articles wholly or mainly manufactured," are of a non-competitive character; for instance, non-ferrous metals and oils, which accounted for nearly £4,000,000 of the total increase of nearly £13,000,000, under this heading.
    Sir JOHN WARDLAW-MILNE: The right hon. Gentleman has twice mentioned the words "a large proportion." It would be very interesting to know what that proportion is.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I pointed out that the figures which I have just read to the Committee, in regard to non-ferrous metals and oils, represent imports which come under this heading.
    Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNE: What is the proportion of the total imports used in the processes of manufacture?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I do not think I can give those figures without closer examination. My hon. Friend may take it that a very large proportion of the increase in imports has been due to activity in our own home trades, although it is not reflected in our own export trades. Many articles which are classified as manufactured goods form the material for further industrial processes. This illustrates the point which I was making in reply to my hon. Friend. For instance, there are certain classes of pottery and of iron and steel manufactures, some machinery and some qualities of leather, which are all regarded as manufactured material for our import returns, and which play a large part in the industries which supply our home trade as well as our export trade. Increased imports in these cases undoubtedly indicate a greater industrial activitiy, and are an inevitable consequence of the improvement of trade in this country. I need hardly say that this is one of the aspects of the ebb and flow of our trade which ought to be watched with great care, if we are to avoid a situation in which undue strain will be placed upon our foreign exchange.
    2072
    The increase in raw materials is very largely due to a larger consumption of wool and, strange as it may sound, also to a larger consumption, to the extent of over £4,500,000, of cotton. Exports of United Kingdom goods, although they increased only about £1,400,000, must not be regarded as entirely unfavourable. Part of that slowing up of the export trade of this country is due to an almost complete cessation, for a time, of our exports to Italy, which were over £4,000,000 less than in the first half of last year. I hope that the trade which we lost during 1935 and 1936 is going to be regained in Italy. Already we are taking steps to get into close touch with the authorities in Rome, so that the obstacles to British trade with Italy may be removed as rapidly as possible. Coal exports unfortunately declined by £1,700,000, but the value of exports to countries other than Italy was slightly higher this year than last.
    Mr. TINKER: Was that decline due to the sanctions aǵainst Italy?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: There are two or three elements which have been detrimental to our export trade in coal, and undoubtedly the imposition of sanctions was one of them. The other was the difficulty which the Italian importers had to provide payments for goods of which they were taking delivery in Italy in the months preceding the sanctions.
    Mr. GRENFELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman giving the figures for the first six months of 1935 compared with the First six months of 1936, or is he giving figures for the whole year?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Perhaps the hon. Member will let me say that, as far as coal is concerned, I was hoping that he would make some mention of that industry in his remarks and that then my hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary for Mines would deal with them. We are short-handed at present on the Treasury Bench, and in those circumstances I did not propose to go into the details of the whole question. Let me refer to the aggregate increase of exports of manufactured goods. That amounted to no less than £1,300,000. Woollen and worsted goods and miscellaneous manufactures each increased by £700,000. There were declines of nearly that amount in non-ferrous metals and cotton goods. The excess of imports of merchandise over

    2073
    the total exports went up from £124,000,000 to £162,000,000, mainly owing to the increase in imports. The question naturally arises, can we afford the additional imports which the home market is demanding? As far as we can ascertain, we can afford them at the present time. Taking into account the invisible items, that is to say shipping earnings, income from foreign investments, brokerages, commissions and insurance, there is no reason to anticipate any serious debit balance in payments this year; but I am naturally unable to give the figures for the first half of the year, for they are usually made up and examined towards the end of each year, with the assistance of the statistical authorities concerned.
    Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned "debit." Does he mean a debit compared with last year?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I was referring to the adverse balance of payments, which is the phrase generally used on this subject. I cannot give the exact figures of the balance sheet—to which, as my hon. and gallant Friend knows, we pay great attention once or twice a year—without ascertaining what has happened throughout the whole year, and without obtaining the assistance of statistical advisers for making up our case.
    The decline in international trade appears to have been arrested at last, but the improvement as yet is rather slight. The proportion of this country in world trade is definitely increasing. In 1932 our proportion of world export trade stood at 9.9 per cent., and it rose to 10.8 per cent. by 1935, showing that of the world's trade we are obtaining an increasing share.
    I will turn for a time to a short description of some of the various industries which call for most attention. Coal will be dealt with by the Secretary for Mines, but I must say something on the subject of the cotton trade. I am glad to say that, taken as a whole, the position of the cotton industry appears to be rather less gloomy than it was, although in some districts I fear that that statement will not meet with a very hearty reception, for in the lower grades of cotton the recovery has been slight, if any. As to the export trade, all that can be said is that the cotton industry is about holding its own, but no more than that. Ex-
    2074
    ports of yarn and piece goods increased from £59,000,000 in 1934 to £60,000,000 in 1935, but in the first six months of this year they are about £700,000 less than in the first half of 1935, an increase in yarns having been exceeded by a fall in the value of piece goods exported.
    The cotton industry has welcomed the recent adjustments in the Canadian and Australian tariffs and the Danish Government's undertaking to allocate more import licences for our cotton goods. The revision of the Indian tariff rates, although not up to Lancashire's expectation, has removed the depressing uncertainty of recent months. I have already mentioned that there has been an increase in the imports of raw cotton into this country. Deliveries to the mills have shown a distinct increase during the last 12 months, and there has been a marked decline in unemployment. The percentage of insured workers unemployed is now less than 16 per cent., compared with over 21 per cent. a year ago.
    The Cotton Spinning Industry Act, recently passed, provides for the establishment of a Spindles Board, with power to purchase redundant spinning machinery. Both the Spindles Board and the Advisory Committee which is to assist it, have now been appointed, and the board have already done a great deal of preliminary work. It is hoped to announce very shortly the appointed day for the commencement of statutory operations. The Act is regarded by the majority of the industry as the first step in the return of the industry to a sound economic basis, which will enable it better to face world competition. A special reorganisation committee of the industry has been formed to investigate the existing organisation and to put forward proposals for the expansion of the cotton trade. Such steps will always have the Government's sympathetic support, for it is measures such as these, rather than enactments, which will enable the industry to adapt itself to changes in the cotton world.
    Now let me deal in outline with iron and steel. The position of the industry was recently debated on the Finance Bill. At the present moment it is probably our busiest important industry. The production of pig iron during the first half of 1936 was at the annual rate of nearly 7,500,000 tons, that is to say over 1,000,000

    2075
    tons in excess of the 1935 production and a little below the 1929 production. Expansion of pig iron production has been hampered to some extent by a shortage of coke, consequent upon a deficiency of modern coking plant, but this deficiency is in course of being rectified by the building of new batteries of coke ovens at various steel works. The production of steel ingots and castings in the first half of 1936 was at the annual rate of nearly 11,500,000 tons; that is to say, we are now producing in this country very nearly 1,000,000 tons a month, far above the level of 1935 or 1929 and constituting a new record.
    Many additions and improvements have been made in iron and steel plant in all parts of the country, and there are plans for the erection of further plant in some cases. One of the industries on which the iron and steel trade is dependent for prosperity is the industry of shipbuilding and marine engineering. In shipbuilding, which has so long been one of our most depressed industries, there is now a gratifying revival. At the end of June the tonnage of merchant vessels under construction was 850,000 gross tons, compared with 560,000 tons a year earlier. Important Admiralty contracts and certain foreign naval orders have greatly assisted these figures. The builders, especially on the Tyne and Clyde and Wear, are busy, and more slips are occupied now than for many years past. This increased activity has brought a welcome increase in the work of marine engineers and boiler-making firms. General engineering shows a continued improvement, and in some branches, for instance machine tools, demand has overtaken supply. An ample supply of machine tools is now one of the most critical questions with which we are having to deal. It would be a great pity for the general industries of this country if they were held up or delayed by the absence of this most essential part of their equipment. I hear that there is also a shortage of skilled labour in many parts of the country.
    Mr. KELLY; Where?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: In the Midlands and South Yorkshire. I am referring at the moment only to the main industries.
    Mr. KELLY: There are many unemployed.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: That may be, but in the tool-making industry there is a great shortage of labour in some districts. The hon. Member may be thinking of the abundance of labour in some districts and not of the shortage in others.
    Mr. LEWIS JONES: Is it not a fact that there is a big difference between the various grades of engineering craftsmen? In referring to machine tools, did the right hon. Gentleman not mean that there was a shortage of highly skilled labour among those craftsmen engaged in the manufacture of machine tools?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I can only depend on the figures which reach me from the industry itself. There are some difficulties that this trade has to face which are new and certainly not within my recent experience.
    Sir PATRICK HANNON: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the Midlands, between Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton, we are trying to secure at least 1,500 skilled men? Will hon. Gentlemen opposite do anything to help us in that matter?
    Mr. KELLY: If the hon. Member will apply to the trade union it will find the men for him.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: In the electrical industry all-round improvement has been continued since 1935. The activity of other industries is reflected in a bigger demand for electrical material, both heavy and light. Good orders continue to be received from abroad. Exports in the first six months of 1936 were valued at £4,640,000, compared with £4,380,000 a year ago. The motor industry is now one of our leading industries and it continues its prosperous career. During the first seven months of the current season, that is October to April, the production of private cars and taxis increased by over 11 per cent., and the production of commercial vehicles by 10 per cent., compared with the corresponding period of 1934–35. Exports have slightly increased this year. The sustained activity of the industry has benefited a number of ancillary industries, such as tyre making, fittings, upholstery and so On.
    Artificial silk is a young industry which has shown remarkably rapid development in recent years. The 1935 pro-

    2077
    duction of yarn and wastes was more than double the 1931 production and is still increasing this year. The United Kingdom is now the third largest producer of continuous filament rayon yarn, and on the latest available figures it occupies second place among exporters of rayon piece goods, including rayon mixtures. The advance of rayon has not been at the expense of other textile industries. The rayon industry has grown up rather as a valuable source of supply of new raw materials for the other textile industries. Lancashire manufacturers, in particular, have been quick to seize on the possibilities of using rayon yarn in new fabrics, the demand for which will make up for some portion of the loss in the cotton fabrics trade.
    I turn to some of the trade agreements which have engaged the activities of the Board of Trade and its staff during the last year. Imports into the United Kingdom from the Ottawa Dominions and from India increased, between 1931 and 1935, by the large sum of £38,000,000, and the share of these countries in our total imports rose from 19.6 per cent. to 27.4 per cent. Our exports to the Ottawa Dominions and India increased, between 1932 and 1935, by about £38,000,000, and the proportion of our total exports taken by those countries rose from 27.6 to 32.5 per cent. These figures must be put down mainly, if not entirely, to the operation of the trade agreements with those countries. During the last three years, 24 bilateral agreements with foreign countries have been concluded. Some deal solely with trade matters, the principal benefits secured being reductions of foreign tariffs, undertakings for the purchase of United Kingdom produce and manufactures, fair quotas for United Kingdom exports, and the better treatment of British shipping. Some agreements provide, in addition, for the payment of old debts due to our traders, and for exchange to be made available to pay for current trade, while others are Payments Agreements pure and simple.
    Our exports to foreign countries, that is to say, those countries with which trade agreements other than payments agreements have been made, increased, between 1932 and 1935, by £14,000,000. In the 12 months ending March, 1936, our total exports were £68,000,000
    2078
    more than in 1932. The increase in respect of exports to the Ottawa Dominions and to countries with which trade agreements were in force during the whole or the greater part of the later period amounted to no less than £55,500,000. These trade agreements dealt, of course, very largely, in the case of the Northern European agreements, with the export of our coal, to which my hon. and gallant Friend will refer in the course of this Debate, but I would like to make some reference to our recent negotiations. We have just made a supplementary agreement with Denmark. There have been discussions which for various reasons have not yet resulted in the conclusion of agreements, with Argentina, Spain, Holland, Peru, and Brazil. In the case of Peru, an agreement is likely to be signed very shortly. As regards Brazil, discussions with a view to a new instrument to replace the existing exchange of Notes regulating trade relations between the two countries are now reaching the final stages. Discussions with the Dutch Government have resulted in specific quotas, of advantage to the United Kingdom, in respect of textiles in the Dutch East Indies. With regard to Argentina, I regret to say I cannot make any report this afternoon, for the negotiations have not yet been concluded, but a full statement of what is required by our industries is in the possession of the Argentine Government, and we have made it quite clear that we are prepared to meet them on the friendliest basis, but that we cannot sacrifice unduly our own industries for their benefit.
    Sir ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL: Do I understand that we shall have an opportunity of examining that agreement at length before it is ratified by His Majesty's Government? Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that there is a determined feeling in this House and outside that we cannot give support on the Argentine meat question, or even on the Anglo-Argentine textile question, unless and until the Argentine railway question is satisfactorily settled, in view of the fact that £500,000,000 of British money is invested there?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I quite understand the anxiety of my hon. Friend with regard to the Argentine Agreement, but

    2079
    I must tell him that we shall have to follow the procedure of former years, and I am quite sure we shall do everything that we can to safeguard British interests, including those which are connected with the Argentine railways and the utility companies, both of which have very serious grievances. Those matters are under close consideration and discussion at the present moment with the Argentine representatives.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: I am much obliged to my right hon. Friend. He will satisfy public opinion if the public know for certain that this agreement will be laid before Parliament and considered before it can be ratified.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: It must, of course, meet with the approval of the House before it can be regarded as an operating instrument. Negotiations primarily concerted with the liquidation of outstanding trade debts have been conducted during the last 12 months with Uruguay, Rumania, Hungary and Spain, as well as discussions with Brazil arising out of the payments agreement of March, 1935, and in each case they have resulted in the conclusion of agreements which are more or less satisfactory to us. These agreements, and the German Agreement of 1934, have resulted in the recovery of actual cash, in respect of arrears due to United Kingdom trade creditors, amounting, so far, to a total of about £12,000,000. In addition, very large sums have been liquidated by means of bond issues and the like, and provision has been made for payment for current trade in many cases Where payment would not otherwise have been forthcoming.
    I would like to say a few words on the commercial policy of this country, and I am sure it will give satisfaction, at all events to the majority of Members of the House, to know that the commercial policy of this country remains unchanged. It is now a well tried policy. We are able to judge by results, and we have no intention of taking any undue risks in the future. Our policy is founded on equality of opportunity for all nations, and is qualified only by the duty of other nations to play their part in the same general scheme. Our policy rests on the belief that only the removal of the artificial restrictions which at present
    2080
    hamper multi-lateral trade can restore the volume of turnover which was reached before the crisis of 1931. Events since that date have reduced the volume of world trade by 20 per cent., and its gold value by 60 per cent., and this disastrous decline can only be due to the impoverishment of nations, to the closing of markets and to the increase of restrictions of all kinds.
    Not only have tariffs been increased, but far more drastic barriers have been raised in the form of prohibitions and quotas, and also by the operation of exchange restrictions. The quantitative regulations of imports commonly called quotas are of two kinds. They can be adopted merely as additional means of protection, or they can also be used for the better regulation of production and marketing in the case of certain primary commodities, especially of agricultural products. As regards exchange restrictions, these are, happily, unknown in the United Kingdom. They are the outcome of fear for the exchange value of the currency in those countries which are haunted by memories of uncontrolled inflation or by the apprehension of a flight of capital. Such fears readily arise in countries where the currency is overvalued. In this country, I am glad to say, there are no such fears, but in some others they have been constantly present since the crisis of 1931. Such countries, having no currency that can be freely exported, are driven back upon various kinds of barter trade of greater or less rigidity.
    Clearing agreements are the modern sophisticated form of barter. Their object is to get over exchange restrictions or to secure a balance of payments. His Majesty's Government believe that payments can only be made to balance by artificial means at a lower level of trade all round. But in self-defence we have been compelled to use clearings, or agreements of the nature of clearings, in the case of countries having exchange restrictions where it was essential to secure the liquidation of outstanding commercial debts and to provide more hopeful conditions for current trade.
    The British import market, which is by far the largest import market in the world, has been kept open for the goods of all nations on fair and equal terms all through these difficult years. The control

    2081
    of this market for the purpose of buying from those who buy from us is a temptation to those who believe that clearings really provide the foundation of a system of balanced trade. Upon certain countries and for a certain period we could, no doubt, force a greater quantity of United Kingdom goods, but we do not believe that a policy of force in this region would prosper for long. It would lead to the impoverishment of our customers and of third parties in whose prosperity we are interested, and, eventually, to a fall in our own trade. We have, therefore, used the power of our huge import market with great caution, to promote the sales of our goods abroad rather than to compel artificially enhanced purchases. This has been the policy of the Ottawa Agreements and of our trade agreements, and it is the policy which we shall continue to follow.
    With regard to the future, in considering the prospects of British industry and commerce it is as well to have in mind the factors on which the trade revival has been based. The restoration and maintenance of confidence, following a series of balanced Budgets, has been one of the main factors. A second has been the protection given to the home market, which has been adequate without removing the incentive to increased productive efficiency; and a third has been the development of overseas markets, largely under the stimulus of bilateral agreements with Empire and numerous foreign countries; while finally there has been the fertilising influence of cheap money. These four factors, I am glad to say, still operate. The confidence of the business community is unimpaired. The trend of industrial profits is still upward, and, although costs are gradually rising, there are no indications that profit margins are likely to be much reduced. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about wages?"] I need hardly say that, unless British industries make profits, they cannot carry on. The policy of developing overseas markets through trade agreements is being pursued by us, and the Government are doing their utmost to see that our exporters get paid for the goods they send to foreign countries. Raw material imports are higher than a year ago; money is being spent freely; and the further expansion in employment and some recent wage increases in certain
    2082
    industries will no doubt lead to a greater volume of consumption.
    The prospects of nearly all our manufacturing industries, with two notable exceptions, seem to be good. Housebuilding activity is being maintained, while industrial and commercial building is expanding. When the anticipated slackening in housebuilding comes—so far there is no sign of any rapid decline—it is likely to be counterbalanced by work under the defence programme and under the railway, road and slum clearance schemes. It is easy, however, to exaggerate the extent of the demands that are likely to be made on industry by the defence orders. The matter can be kept in proper perspective if it is remembered that the total output of our factory trades alone is in the region of £2,000,000,000 per annum. The volume of world trade is slowly expanding and the international background seems to be slightly less unfavourable than in recent months, but our exporters are still impeded by tariffs, quotas and exchange restrictions and there are still fears of further economic developments of a disturbing character in some foreign countries.
    It seems probable that for some time to come the hopes of our exporters will be centred mainly on the continued expansion of trade with Empire and other countries within the sterling area. Nevertheless, looking at the whole field of world trade, there are certain encouraging features. The statistics available covering the past few years suggest that, in spite of the growth of economic nationalism, levels of prosperity in individual countries still tend to rise and fall together. Although special factors continue to retard progress in the gold bloc countries, the rise in industrial production from the depth of the depression is widespread and, as an exporting country, the United Kingdom should benefit from this progress in other countries. Another hopeful feature is the advance of our newer industries, like the motor vehicle, rayon and electrical industries, in the export trade which has offset the decline in exports and production of some of our older basic industries. It seems that we must still rely mainly on our internal trade for the continuance of our recovery in the coming months. We cannot enjoy full prosperity

    2083
    until there is an improvement in international trade on a scale which cannot be expected in the very near future.
    Mr. E. J. WILLIAMS: Are we to understand that the Government will not attempt to do anything to help to revive the export coal trade?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I did not say that. I do not know whether the hon. Member was in the House when the Debate opened when I said that the Secretary for Mines would take part and would deal with the question of coal. If there are no further major developments of a disturbing character abroad, and assuming a continuous of industrial peace at home, there is every reason to hope that the progress of the past three or four years will continue.
    4.34 p.m.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: I feel sure that the Committee was rather pleased to find that the right hon. Gentleman somewhat abated his picturesque tone towards the end of his address, because he would have conveyed the impression that we have at last reached the happy stage of full prosperity, which seems so unreal even to this well disciplined House, which controls its emotions so well. I saw hon. Members opposite rubbing their eyes. One would imagine that everything was now all right, that there was no need for further fears and that industrial prosperity had at last come upon us. There was only one black spot that the right hon. Gentleman presented to us in his survey of world and national prospects. He said he was not quite satisfied with the position of coal. I imagine if he is to be confined to coal that we shall hear a less optimistic expression of opinion from the Minister of Mines.
    I was able to take a hurried glance this morning at the trade report for the last six months as compared with the same period in 1935 and 1934. I find that the export trade in coal has declined by 3,200,000 tons as compared with the same period in 1934. Even when we take into account the loss of trade to Italy in that period of 2,200,000 tons, there is still 1,000,000 tons left, entirely dissociated with sanctions against Italy, which has to be accounted for. It is worthy of notice that we lost to France
    2084
    a quantity of 700,000 tons, almost exactly the identical figure by which the Irish trade improved in consequence of the long-delayed agreement with that country. The disagreement was due to this Government and the loss was signally repaired by the Anglo-Irish Agreement achieved a year ago. As a result, the Irish demand for coal has increased by exactly the same quantity as the loss in the French trade. The right hon. Gentleman rightly claimed that the trade agreement countries—Finland, Denmark, Germany and Sweden—show a very small improvement but, when you include the trade agreement countries with the non-trade agreement countries, there has been a decline of 1,000,000 tons which has to be accounted for by the Minister of Mines. The right hon. Gentleman would have us believe that we are happy, contented and prosperous, and that there is to be no further anxiety in regard to unemployment. I wonder why the Government is bringing in the means test next week? We have not enough workpeople in the country. If his glorious expectations are half fulfilled, we shall be compelled to search for the unobtainable labour required to carry out the expansion in industry which he foreshadowed.
    But I come back to the picture of a district which is not relieved in the slightest by anything that has been said by the President. I belong to an industrial district which is dependent mainly upon three industries. It is true that there has been an expansion of production in steel, and to some extent that has benefited the South Wales area, but there has been a very great decline in the coal trade. The Trade and Navigation Return shows a decline in the export trade in tinplates and galvanised sheets. I shall take back small comfort to my people from any word that has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman's lips. He painted a picture of gloom, almost of despair, to the part of the world in which I live, where the gloom is deepened every day that this Government remains in office, and its vaunted policies have been put into operation. No advantage at all has come to South Wales. I should like the Committee to look at this district where we have the best coal in the world, where we have an industrial district built on the coalfield, slightly overlapping the

    2085
    site of the coalfield itself, and including within its area. coal, iron ore, limestone, sandstone, clay—all the essentials of the industries which have been found there from the earliest days of industry. Iron was worked and smelted which charcoal in the middle ages. Copper and tinplates came to find a home there two and a-half centuries ago. Spelter and lead and nickel came in due course because of the easy communication by sea and the availability of all these materials for smelting which are characteristic of the natural advantages of that district.
    Despite all these advantages we are to-day facing a period of terrible anxiety and this district, which has proved its capacity for the building up of these industries, is now racked with despair because the Government has failed to give a word of comfort, or encouragement, or hope to the people in it. I have accompanied deputations to the President of the Board of Trade. I make no complaint of the courteous way in which we were received, but we were given very slender promises. I do not think he gave us anything to which we can hold on. I was amazed by a remark that he made to-day. I shall return to it because it gave me forebodings of further trouble on the point of the retention of the industries that we have at present. We have been to the Prime Minister, and I have never known him or any other responsible person using so many words to say "No" as the Prime Minister did in the most despairing reply that he gave us. He is going to South Wales this week-end. I hope it keeps fine for him. He is not going to the industrial area. I wonder if he could be induced the change the venue of this meeting and go from the pleasant fields of St. Fagans to the Valley and see to what depths our people have been reduced by the neglect of the Government. The people in this part of Britain are no less competent than those in any other part. We intensely dislike having to come here in the character of supplicants asking for favours. We have proved our capacity in the world of industry. We have built up those industries. In 1913 under normal conditions of industry we had built up a production in coal of no less than 57,000,000 tons a year, of which 36,700,000 tons were exported, the remaining 20,000,000 being for home consumption, mainly within the area itself for the maintenance of other
    2086
    industries. We employed 15,000 men in steel production and 22,000 in tinplate production.
    This comparatively small area produced no less than 20 per cent. of Britain's coal output, 40 per cent. of its coal export, 30 per cent. of Britain's steel, 95 per cent. of its tinplates and almost the whole of the copper, spelter and nickel produced in this country, an enormous production showing the natural suitability of the area and the organising capacity of the people employed there. They have built up these industries and also dock and railway facilities unexcelled in any part of the world. Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Neath and Llanelly all played their part in providing for the enormous imports and exports which served the needs of the district. This was the gateway by which a large portion of the wealth derived in the country was sent abroad. These docks and railroads which served the coalfields not only served the immediate neighbourhood, but served to send abroad the production which paid for the food of the people of the country in a very large proportion. There was an enormous contribution made by the delivery of these substantial exports from the district of South Wales at these docks. The total annual trade in that small area on the north side of the Bristol Channel amounted to no fewer than 55,000,000 tons, more than 20 per cent. of the total clearances from all the ports in this country.
    In addition to the docks, the railways, the mines, steelworks and tinplate works, large numbers of ancillary undertakings were developed and were working prosperously, with the hope of further prosperity and greater expansion in the future. When the world War came—and this must be noted in examining the causes of distress in South Wales—the whole of the industrial life of this part of the country was transformed, and the industries were converted to war purposes. There were the usual stories of prosperity. It was a period of high prices and large profits; the industrial concerns in South Wales made fabulous profits indeed. Those profits are staggering when one looks back in retrospect from this distant period. These War profits were distributed by men who had large interests in trustification and amal-

    2087
    gamation, but who had little knowledge of business, little social conscience and little idea of their duties to the community. They bought and sold industrial concerns at five or ten times their value. It was a question of easy come and easy go. Money was bandied about in this way, and the post-War industry of South Wales was saddled with a mortgage which was impossible of being sustained. We are now paying a tremendous price because of the short-sightedness of the people who controlled industry in those days.
    I now come to the beginning of this doleful experience which has come upon us, and has existed from 1920 to this day. There came a slump due to very special causes—bad politics, Reparations: debt settlements. It was the politics of this House that struck the first heavy blow at South Wales, from which it has not recovered. We had been the special victims of wrong political ideas. The deadly blow which was struck at us in 1920 has damaged us so severely that we have not yet even begun to recover. Our condition has worsened to a greater extent still by the mistaken and ruinous policy of the Government of the day. I will tell the Committee what has happened to the coal industry since 1920, as I am sure that it does not realise the fact. In 1920 we produced 46,250,000 tons of coal in South Wales, and in 1934 we produced 35,000,000 tons. In 1920 the output, as I have said, was 46,250,000 tons, the value of production £125,000,000, the wages paid £66,000,000, profits £26,000,000, and the number of people employed 234,161. Take 1934, after 14 years of depression—I give the figures for 1934 because they are complete and reliable—the output was 35,000,000 tons, the proceeds £26,750,000, wages £15,500,000, profits £2,000,000 and the number of people employed 138,806, about half the number of those who were employed in 1920. The proceeds of production have, therefore, dropped to about 20 per cent. and the wages are down to less than 25 per cent. of the 1920 standard, and the number of people employed has declined by 50 per cent. That is a terrible story of disaster, loss, unemployment, commercial stagnation and of ruin overtaking individual concerns.
    The decline in the coal trade which caught the owners unprepared was met by them by an attack upon wages which we
    2088
    remember so well. The Government of the country at that time came to an agreement with the owners and prepared a joint attack upon miners' wages. They were only too successful. Miners' wages are at a miserable level to-day because of the combination of forces of the Government of 1921 and the coalowners at that time. We were told, those of us who sat in joint meetings with the coal owners, that if we reduced the costs of coal by 2s. 6d. a ton we could regain the whole of our trade in the world. A cut of 2s. 6d. was made, and at the end of 12 months we were asked to let them have a further concession of 2s. 6d. from miners' wages. That cut was again made, with the result that miners are now working at wages very much less than they were in 1914. Half our people are out of work. More than 200 mines have closed down, and concern after concern has gone into liquidation, with disastrous effects upon the savings of small investors, those who respond to the prospectuses in the daily papers and have no knowledge of industrial business themselves. The retired grocer, small schoolmaster and even the retired policeman with a few pounds allowed their money to go to people who write prospectuses so attractively and well, and who, having gained his confidence have absolute freedom to dispose of the small man's savings. Thousands of men have been ruined in South Wales by the liquidation of colliery companies and the reorganisation of iron and steel and other industrial companies. This deadwood, ruthlessly cut out, is now to be seen in South Wales rotting, and there is no prospect of relief or help from any quarter.
    I think that the Committee should know that many of the coalowners came to understand this game of liquidation very well and that they liquidated for their own purposes, that they wrote down capital with the assistance of the banks, and brought their own concerns on to the market and bought them in again for "an old song," or for very little, and made a fresh start with new capital. The scandal should be made public, and the world should know how far that special wickedness has been carried on in South Wales. The same process has gone on in the iron and steel industry. We have had reorganisation and amalgamation and nationalisation

    2089
    with the result that employment has declined. The right hon. Gentleman did not tell the whole story about employment in the steel industry, and perhaps one of his colleagues will repair the omission. Although we are producing steel at the rate of 11,000,000 tons this year—we shall probably exceed that figure, and I should not be surprised if it does not come very near to 12,000,000 tons—the fact remains that we have fewer people employed to produce that larger quantity than we had in respect of the production of a smaller quantity in 1929 and 1917, the years of the previous peak levels in the industry. The numbers of people employed in all these industries have declined, but I am now devoting myself mainly to the terrible plight of the mining industry. In this district miners wages have gone down by no less than £1,000,000 a week. That is the effect of the details which I gave to the Committee a few minutes ago. Those who are in employment are working for £1,000,000 less per week than those who worked in the same industry in 1920. Although individual production has been increased, there are now between 160,000 and 170,000 persons out of work in the South Wales coalfield, the majority of whom belong to the coal industry.
    This enormous loss is not only suffered by miners. I would point out how these losses have been distributed. Everybody has suffered loss. If one divides the people who have been affected by the depression of the last 15 years into categories, there is first of all, the loss suffered by individual shareholders, who, when a concern goes into liquidation or is wound up, lose the value of their share capital. There is the loss of profits on the part of those who have invested in concerns which are still working, but are doing so at a loss. There is the loss of value on building property, which is widespread and catastrophic in district after district. There is the loss of professional incomes, and losses by tradespeople. There has been a grave decline in the income from all sources.
    We have had the Special Area Commissioner giving us attention now for nearly two years, pointing out the tragedy and the pathos of life in this once prosperous area. I do not think that this House can allow its responsibility to devolve upon the Special Area Commissioner, a man with a roving commission,
    2090
    a kind of touch-and-go, who comes in contact with the problem only indirectly and does not give the whole of his time to the area and does not carry the full authority of the State behind him in everything he has to do. We live in a community which is governed by as near a democracy as this country or the world can show. In this area we have built up a democratic system of government which controls our local authorities, maintains our social services and our public services upon a standard of which we are very proud indeed. In this area, where all the powers of disintegration and demoralisation are at work, we are not demoralised. We are still alive. We insist upon living upon a high level, as far as we are allowed to do. We are giving education as good as that which is given in any part of this country, or anywhere in the world. We are trying to maintain decent housing conditions and to sustain the health of our people, because we dare not allow the health of our people to suffer in consequence of the follies of Governments in the past. We are fighting hard to maintain our position, and are meeting with a large measure of success. If we receive the encouragement and help of this House, we can pull our people through this period even now.
    There has been, unfortunately, a great decline in the resources of local authorities. I have figures to show that from 1920 to 1934 the value of production in our three main industries has declined by £171,000,000 a year. I do not know what the total decline of income is, but I would put it at a higher figure, perhaps £200,000,000 a year, representing the sum of our purchasing power as compared with the period of 15 years ago. The financial conditions of our local authorities has been very seriously weakened. Idle mines do not pay rates, and the burden of rates has been thrown upon the people who are unemployed and the struggling tradespeople who cannot make both ends meet. There is a loss of population of young people who go away not under the happiest of auspices, but who have to go, and they go in very large numbers. Our elderly people have to remain. Our population is one of young and old, very old and unemployed people and very young people, who have to be cared for. That is the kind of population that remains to us after this

    2091
    very severe period of depression through which we are passing.
    We are losing our population, and the resources which would enable us to meet our community responsibilities. Take, for example, the town of Merthyr. Its rates are on a very much reduced assessable value. Its property is losing in value every day. It is assessed at a lower level, and the rates rise in proportion as the assessable value falls. The rates stand at 28s. in the pound, of which 16s. in the pound is accounted for poor rate. The resources of local authorities have been depleted. They have been reduced, and if the depression continues, there will have to be a further reduction still. We have public debts of no less than £40,000,000. The interest rate is from 6¼ per cent. to 3¼ per cent. The capital debt has been considerably increased and the aggregate amount of rates is 200 per cent. higher than in 1914. Let me give some examples. In Aberdare, in 1913–14 the rates were 9s. 8d. in the £, and in 1934–35 20s.; in Pontypridd, in 1913–14, 10s. 10d. in the £, and in 1934–35 21s. 2d.; in Rhondda, in 1913–14, the figure was 7s. 9d. in the £, and in 1934–35 22s. 9d.; and in Gelligaer in 1913–14 it was 11s., and in 1934–35 24s. 3d. In all the urban districts the county demand for public assistance is greater than the total amount of rates in 1914. The number of people in receipt of public assistance went up from 45,000 in 1921 to 130,000 in 1935, and the number is still rising.
    I would ask the Committee to extend some consideration to the plea which I am about to make on behalf of this district. We must have considerably more spending power in South Wales. Our earnings must be increased. We cannot cope with our administrative responsibilities if the earning and purchasing power of the community and of the individual continues to decline as in recent years. There is an increasing number of unemployed people who are passing out of insurance and who are thrown upon the means test. The Committee must remember that the object of the means test is to preclude certain persons from benefit and to place the national responsibility upon the households to which those persons are attached. A continuation and accentuation of the means test will bring still
    2092
    greater difficulties not only to the households of the people concerned but to the community to which they belong.
    We are not unmindful of the way in which we have been assisted by the community, but it has not been fully recognised that the principle of the means test does not operate as it ought to do. Hon. Members may say that it is a right thing to have a means test and a family means test, and they may ask why a fortunate person should not make a contribution to an unfortunate member of the same household who is out of work.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think we had better discuss the principle of the means test next week.
    Mr. GRENFELL: My point is that if that principle is good in the household it is good in the whole country, and the country must be prepared to give more generous assistance to those in South Wales who are suffering not because of any fault of their own but through faults of previous Administrations and indeed of the present Administration. I have said that the Government has given assistance. The net contributions from the Treasury have been about £30,000,000, spread over the period from 1920. Total unemployment benefits have varied from £5,000,000 in 1928 to £9,000,000 in 1935, a very substantial sum, but be it remembered that when people are receiving their unemployment benefit the average amount per applicant is just over £1 a week, which is about half as much as a person would get if he were in any low-paid employment. The unemployed man gets less than half as much unemployment benefit as he would get if he were in work.
    I should hate to think that South Wales is an area which now undeservedly makes claims upon its rich relations and asks them to come to its assistance. That is not an accurate picture of the case. It is a distortion of economic facts which is not easy to refute, but we protest against the idea that the South Wales coalfield, that highly industrialised area, is in debt to any part of Great Britain, or is asking for undeserved charity from any part of the country or from the country as a whole. We are the victims of world prices, and to quarrel with those is to quarrel with the world system. We have evidence enough that nothing that we have done is responsible for the condition

    2093
    that we are in. I will give over again three significant figures affecting the three main industries of South Wales to show how they have suffered in recent years. In 1913 the value of the production of those three industries was £53,250,000; in 1920 the value was £221,000,000 and in 1934, £52,500,000. In that time prices have gone up and down. No one would say that the South Wales miner, the South Wales iron worker or the South Wales citizen is in any way responsible for that condition of things. Is it right therefore that he should bear the whole burden of the deprivation of purchasing power and income which has resulted? We have had 15 years of depressed prices, and in that period we have gone back 40 years in our standard of living.
    On the question of the transference of industry, of which we have heard so much, I should like to say to the President of the Board of Trade, please do something to allay the apprehensions of the people of South Wales on this point. This threat to remove from us a source of the meagre incomes that we receive at the present time and to take away from us one of our main resources comes almost as a sentence of death to the localities directly concerned and also a sentence of extreme penalty upon the whole of South Wales. I hope that the Minister will today send us away on holiday not singing "Roses, roses, all the way," but that he will give us a straight hint of the Government's intention to protect us from further deprivation and further deterioration in South Wales. Leading industrialists in South Wales in the past have complained of Government interference. That is where they were wrong. They were childishly wrong. I have said to them and I say to-day that they have now a Government of their own choice. They have been given protection, protection ill-distributed, and now they call aloud for help. Those who call for help from the Government do not sit on these benches but they are represented on the benches opposite, and they are blaming the Government for the difficulties they have had to experience in industry in South Wales.
    This Government has given protection to several industries in this country. A shelter has been provided by the State. It is a kind of subsidy. There is no
    2094
    disguising that fact. A person limits his mobility voluntarily when he takes advantage of a shelter provided by somebody else. These people who are protected by the State and still claiming the right to shelter should not have the right to move at their own free will and to leave the communities to bear the burden consequent upon their action. Those communities have built themselves around the industries in South Wales. The capital of the community may exceed and often does exceed tenfold the value of the industrial capital. It is represented in workpeople's houses, rates, health services, transport, schools, hospitals, churches and everything that appertains to the amenities of those who have spent years of service in industry. We trust that we shall not be told that the policy of the Government remains unchanged. I hope that they will introduce one change and declare that change to-day, and that is that these people shall not desert the communities which have stood by them and helped them to build up their industries.
    I would ask the President of the Board of Trade and the Government to consider a plan for the industrial reorganisation of South Wales. I am vain enough to believe that I could do something for South Wales if I had the power. I do not believe that it is impossible to reorganise South Wales. Given a planning authority with the co-operation of Government Departments, with a sympathetic and understanding Treasury, and also representative of the industry, of the local authorities and the people of the area, we could accomplish much. If the Treasury would say: "We will assist you with the necessary finance," we could set up a body with authority to provide cheap power, cheap transport, if necessary, and with authority to take advantage of whatever trade agreements the Minister might bring in from time to time, and of whatever tariffs or quota arrangements were necessary. We could give that planning authority the responsibility of reorganising production in South Wales. I feel sure that if the Government did that they would be able to claim a far greater achievement than anything contained in the wonderfully attractive speech of the President of the Board of Trade. He went far and wide to collect laurels, but unless he gives back prosperity to the South Wales coalfields and to the de-

    2095
    pressed areas of Tyneside and the Clyde, his great conquests abroad, and the record of his achievements in negotiations, will count for nothing with our people.
    5.12 p.m.
    Sir H. CROFT: I am one of those who never can listen to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) without feeling that in his contributions to our debates his utterances are sincere and deserving of the sympathetic attention of every one. I have never known him to show spite in anything that he says, and for that reason the Welsh blood in me responds to the sentiments that he expressed in describing the condition of the area which he has so eloquently brought to our attention. The figures that he gave were most impressive, showing that South Wales in general has suffered terribly and that those whose whole livelihood is concerned with the coalfields of South Wales have suffered much more, but he was wise enough to point out that those sufferings have also extended even to the wicked capitalists in South Wales, for whereas the wages have fallen to one-sixth he stated that the profits have declined to something like one-twelfth or one-thirteenth.
    I know that it is not the smallest consolation to the hon. Member to tell him that the rest of the country is gradually moving forward to prosperity, and it is not a consolation to he told that South Wales would be in complete collapse but for the fact that the rest of the country has helped, to a certain extent, to carry the distressed areas on their backs.
    Mr. E. J. WILLIAMS: That is not so.
    Sir H. CROFT: I think the hon. Member if he thinks it out must realise that if the rest of the country was as impoverished as South Wales and the other depressed areas, the state of the depressed areas would be even worse than it is. That is obvious. In saying that one does not belittle the terrible tragedy of the depressed areas. The hon. Member was hardly fair in blaming the Government for the condition of things. He might blame the Government for not having that Welsh wizardry which will establish some new form of industry there, but this condition of things has been going on under various Governments. In the course of his speech the
    2096
    hon. Member pointed out that the whole position was governed by world prices in regard to the coal trade in particular, on which South Wales is dependent. The Government cannot control world prices and, therefore, we cannot attribute the blame to them. The area with which the hon. Member is well acquainted has probably suffered more than any other, but if you are going to blame the Government you must also congratulate them in that the total production of coal has increased to a greater extent than the loss in our export trade. That is broadly true. The Government are entitled to say that by giving new life to the heavy industries of the country they have greatly increased the home consumption of coal for domestic purposes.
    I want to deal with the general trade position of the country. I was a little upset to hear that the Government's policy is unchanged. I was hoping to hear that it was going to be considerably speeded up. It will be agreed, I believe, that a policy of moderate protection has done a great deal to change the position of this country from what it was in 1931, when hon. Members of the Liberal party entered the Government in order to correct the adverse balance of trade.
    Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR indicated dissent.
    Sir H. CROFT: Sir Herbert Samuel, who was then the Leader of the Liberal party, declared that it was essential to correct the adverse balance of trade.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: We were not responsible for a protectionist policy.
    Sir H. CROFT: I believe that the right hon. Member and his party voted for the abnormal duties, but not for the moderate tariff which was proposed. He voted for the Wheat subsidy but not for the 10 per cent. duty on competitive manufactures. Surely the trouble from which we suffer in our economic policy is the fact that His Majesty's Government from the inception did not make it clear to the Import Duties Advisory Committee exactly what was the policy at which they were aiming. Had the Government decided on some policy which would give such protection to our industries as would secure the greatest amount of employment for our people and the maintenance of reasonable prices, we should

    2097
    be in a stronger position to-day than we are. Instead, the Government had no definite policy. We have had some discussions in this House on one or two main items, but the main duty of deciding the amount of the various import duties has been handed over to the Import Duties Advisory Committee. I pay my tribute to the extraordinary amount of work they have done, and it is greatly to the credit of our British system that there has not been one word or suggestion that hon. Members in any part of the House have tried to Lobby to get the duties down or to get them up. That is a tremendous tribute to the method by which the Government decided to take this question out of politics.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I do not quite see the responsibility of the President of the Board of Trade in regard to this matter. The Department which is responsible, in so far as the duties are presented to this House, is the Treasury.
    Sir H. CROFT: I submit that it is competent, after the speech of the President of the Board of Trade, to suggest that the general level of our tariff system is either inadequate or too high.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The difficulty I see is that although that line of argument may be quite admissible on the suitable occasion, it is the Treasury who are responsible for deciding whether or not any recommendation of the Import Duties Advisory Committee should come before this House, and not the right hon. Gentleman whose Department is now being discussed.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Do I understand you to rule that we are precluded from discussing a rise or fall in tariffs, because, if that is so, it narrows the discussion so considerably as to make the Debate hardly worth while?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: It has been so ruled before; and if hon. Members will look at the Import Duties Act they will discover that there is only one duty for which the Board of Trade is independently responsible, and that is in recommending an import duty to the House because of unfair discrimination on the part of a foreign country. So far as I am aware, that particular power of the Board of Trade has never been exercised. The remaining duties are presented to this House by the Treasury.
    2098
    The recommendations of the Import Duties Advisory Committee are presented on the responsibility of the Treasury, and by Statute it is the Treasury who have power to accept or refuse to put the recommendations forward. Therefore I am bound to hold, as I have before, that these are matters which should be raised on the Treasury Vote, and not on this Vote.
    Sir P. HANNON: Is it not competent, following the speech of the President of the Board of Trade, to raise in the Debate questions affecting the progress of industry in relation to the tariff policy of the country, quite apart from the Import Duties Advisory Committee? Are we not competent to criticise or approve the actions of the Board of Trade in relation to the general commercial policy of the country?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I did not understand that the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) was doing that. He was criticising the level of tariffs, which is quite a different matter. The level of tariffs can only be altered either by Statute or on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee, and I am pointing out that that is a matter in which the Board of Trade have no responsibility; the responsibility rests with the Treasury. Of course it is open to hon. Members to say that a tariff policy is good or not; and to argue whether they agree with it or do not.
    Mr. SHINWELL: And also to suggest that the level of tariffs is too high or too low?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: As a general argument, yes. I am pointing out that any alteration as a matter of Government policy is not technically the responsibility of the Board of Trade, but is the responsibility of the Treasury.
    Sir ROBERT TASKER: Are we precluded from discussing the effect of the action of the Board of Trade in relation to an industry like coal?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Certainly not, if it is the action of the Board of Trade. There are certain things which are technically the responsibility of the Treasury, and we must not expect the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade to answer for a

    2099
    Department for which he is not responsible.
    Sir H. CROFT: I am grateful for your Ruling, and I appreciate that it is not competent for me to discuss the decisions of the Advisory Committee, but I gather that we may discuss the policy which the President of the Board of Trade rightly claims is in a large measure responsible for the prosperity of the country and, therefore, I shall be in order in suggesting that if the level of duties which were recommended to the House in 1931 and 1932 was correct, then, as things have moved so much since, it cannot be the correct level to-day.
    I want to deal with the general flow of trade in regard to imports and exports during the last few years, and I will take the complete year 1932, which was the year before the full tariff came into operation, and the complete year 1935, and, I think, if I take as a basis the values of the year 1930, it will be a fair way of dealing with the subject. I will take Class 3 goods, deducting the principal items to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, non-ferrous metals, manufactured, oils, resins and fat, as being of a non-competitive character—although I cannot agree that they are so in all cases—and I find that in 1932 the imports into this country of Class 3 goods amounted to £122,500,000. In 1935 they amounted to £144,767,000. That is a very alarming increase, assuming that we were at the correct level in 1932. The fact is that there has been a steady increase in the retained imports of these goods between 1932 and 1935. They have increased by 18 per cent as compared with an increase of only 8 per cent. over the whole range of all classes of retained imports.
    I submit that this is a serious change in the position, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to realise that there are many hon. Members who do not appreciate the argument that a large proportion of these goods are semi-manufactured articles which undergo further processes in this country, because these further processes would be carried out just the same if the articles themselves were manufactured in this country. If you take the total imports of manufactures coming into this country at the present time which might be produced in this
    2100
    country, they represent the employment of something like 400,000 workers. Therefore, I suggest that we cannot view the present situation with complacency. Everybody knows that, compared with the doleful years of the Socialist Government, we have much improved the situation, but we cannot have any great satisfaction yet that the position has been restored. I am certainly not going to rest content with 1,700,000 unemployed workers in this country, because I am quite convinced that if the Government were really resolute in applying a well-proved policy with greater scientific methods, we should see a large number of additional persons absorbed into industry.
    I will give the Committee a few facts which, I think, will interest it. These figures were got out for me by very expert and quick workers, and I do not suppose anybody else has had time to get them out. The facts which they disclose are surprising and indeed staggering. If one takes the six months ending 30th June of this year, compared with 1932, one gets the following surprising results. There was an increase in domestic and fancy glassware coming into this country of 93,813 hundredweights, that is, 143 per cent. In the case of machine tools there was an increase of 227 per cent. The increase here is perhaps excusable, and we may have to go on importing because we are not in a position to produce them in this country at the present time. In the case of typewriters there was an increase of 388 tons, or 233 per cent. There was an increase of 343 per cent. in refrigerating machinery. For cotton yarns and manufactures, I will give the figure in pounds sterling: the figure has risen from £690,000 to £1,300,000, an increase of £612,000, or 88 per cent. There was an increase of 114 per cent, in the number of square yards of carpets coming into the country. This represents very serious competition with the carpet trade of this country, which is feeling the draught very badly. There was an increase of 157 per cent. in women's dresses. Art-silk stockings and hosiery have risen from 212,000 dozen pairs to 959,000, an increase of 746,000, or 350 per cent. The figure for women's leather boots and shoes has gone up by 116 per cent.
    Mr. BENSON: The figures which the hon. and gallant Member is quoting give

    2101
    a comparison between now and the very lowest point of the industrial depression. Could he not make a comparison with 1928, which was the last normal year?
    Sir H. CROFT: That does not affect the argument I am putting forward. I want to see imports prohibited in the case of goods which we have proved can be equally well manufactured in this country. I believe that is very largely the policy of His Majesty's Government, with a view to correcting as far as possoble the adverse balance of trade, but since that policy was adopted there has been this colossal increase to which I am referring. It is that increase to which I am calling the attention of the Government. The same applies in the case of tissue paper, where there has been an increase of 81 per cent., and motor cars, where the increase has been one of £1,000,000, which may appear to be small, but which represents in the four years in question an increase of 511 per cent. I think it will be agreed by hon Members that these increases are very large. I do not wish to weary the Committee with any further details of that nature, but I would suggest that it would be worth while hon. Members studying the figures themselves, and if they do so, they will see that the increase in imports during the last four years has been a very rapid one. If the right hon. Gentleman is interested, I will hand him the list from which I have quoted, and I think he will be impressed by the amounts as well as by the percentage increases.
    I wish also to call attention to the very grave position with regard to the adverse balance of trade. I remember that in 1928 I had the audacity to warn the House that in a very few years time we would have a grave crisis unless we did something to remedy the adverse balance of trade. Everybody said how foolish it was to talk in that way because in this country we have always had invisible trading arrangements, so that the adverse balance of trade does not matter. I think the right hon. Gentleman must admit that the figures disclosed to-day are really serious, because, taking the last month, there is an adverse balance of trade of £30,000,000 sterling, which is a very serious figure. The position has been steadily going in the wrong direction during the last year.
    2102
    The figure for the first half of this year was £162,500,000, that is to say, £38,500,000 worse than for the same six months of last year. Naturally, if the right hon. Gentleman could assure us that our invisible exports have increased to the same extent that the adverse balance of trade has gone against us, we could feel fairly happy, although I would still not be content, because it seems to me that the direction of the policy is wrong. Surely the position is a very alarming one, and unless the right hon. Gentleman can give some assurance that the invisible exports have greatly increased during the same period, then as sure as fate we are getting back to the position of 1931. I beg the Government not to regard this question with sluggish complacency, but to get busy and to see whether it is not possible even now, by a more scientific adjustment of the tariff system, to exclude at least £75,000,000 or £80,000,000 of manufactures which unnecessarily come into this country at the present time, and thereby give a very greatly increased measure of employment to our own people.
    In conclusion, I was pleased to hear the right hon. Gentleman express his faith and hope in the possibilities of greater trade expansion in the Dominions. Surely it is time we began to think a little more of the potential value of those markets. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned that since Ottawa imports from the Dominions to this country have increased by £38,000,000, and that our exports to the Dominions during the same period have increased by £37,500,000, almost completely balancing. What a wonderful thing it is, when the exports of the rest of the world have been going down, that the family of British nations have been able to increase their trade in this way one with another owing to sane and sound trading arrangements. I beg the right hon. Gentleman not to give any pledge in this Debate or between now and the time of the next Imperial Conference that he is going to adopt the one-sided approach that was adopted at Ottawa. I do not think anyone will accuse me of being anti-Empire. [Interruption.] I am grateful for the implied assent. I can say with absolute truth that my sympathy with the people of the Empire is so great that I feel just the same towards

    2103
    a Canadian, an Australian or a New Zealander, as I do to a man from Yorkshire or Lancashire. It must never be forgotten that they saved our existence at a certain great time in our history, and I think that if we get together in trade we shall help one another through these difficult times.
    But in spite of all that, I think it would be unwise, in discussing great business arrangements, for us to say to the Dominions, "Everything you send us during the next few years can come into this country free; now what are you going to do about it?" Even if I were having a business argument with my hon. Friends here and we were trying to fix up a trading arrangement, I would not throw all my cards away before entering the conference room. I submit that we should be wise if we got back to Joseph Chamberlain's idea that we should impose a small duty on Dominion products, but that we should give a very substantial preference. Surely, if that were done we should have some sort of argument to fall back on. We should then have a far greater chance of securing a greater amount of Free Trade within the Empire than we should have if we merely said to the Dominions that we were going to continue to maintain Free Trade for their goods in this country, whereas they might be imposing tariffs of 30 per cent., 40 per cent, or 50 per cent. against our goods in their markets. That is not the way in which to get the best results ultimately. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take great care that next time he and his colleagues meet the Dominions representatives they will approach the whole question from the angle of great friendship and of congratulation on mutual success, but at the same time reckon on the definite fact that they are not merely dealing with Dominion foodstuffs and raw materials; for we have to contemplate fierce competition in the sphere of manufactured articles from the Empire overseas in days to come, and while we prefer the products of the Dominions to those of foreigners, we must not allow our action in this matter to bring disaster to our industries in this country.
    Mr. A. HOPKINSON: May I ask the hon. and gallant Baronet to clear up one
    2104
    point? Again and again he has used the phrase "adverse balance of trade." I gather he means the difference between the value of the material wealth coming into this country and the material wealth going out, and that what he calls the adverse balance merely represents the excess coming into this country in any given year.
    Sir H. CROFT: I have referred to it, in the sense that His Majesty's Government do through the Department. First of all, there is the adverse balance of trade in actual goods and commodities, and secondly, as corrected by invisible exports.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: Although I do not differ in principle from the hon. and gallant Baronet, I would venture to point out to him that it is quite a fallacy to talk about the adverse balance of trade without taking into consideration overseas bullion and capital transactions. Does the Board of Trade call it a trade balance or a balance on oversea transactions?
    The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sir Robert Young): The hon. Member is getting in his speech before he is called upon, instead of asking the question for which he rose.
    5.44 p.m.
    Mr. W. ROBERTS: I do not propose to follow the hon. and gallant Baronet in the remarks he has been making, except to say that I come from the North of England where we are interested in the export trade, and I would like to ask him one question. He was referring to our exports and I would ask him how the foreigner is to pay for our coal if he is not allowed to send goods into this country? Having said that, I would like to make a few references to the speech of the President of the Board of Trade. Though I am well aware that my first name is not David, I venture to say that I was disappointed in some of the statements which he made. He did not appear to give much hope for the northern counties in which I am interested. I also listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) who dealt in the same way with South Wales.
    There is a particular matter which I propose to raise in due course with regard to one of the heavy industries in

    2105
    the North, but at the moment I desire to make some remarks on the general question of the future of our heavy export industries. The right hon. Gentleman said that his faith in the policy of the Government was unshaken and that that policy remained unchanged, but in another part of his speech he said that he relied mainly for our future prosperity upon internal trade, and that remark filled me with considerable gloom. He is relying upon bilateral agreements which have been concluded over a series of years, and he mentioned some figures showing a considerable increase in our exports to the Ottawa countries. But that belief in bilateral agreement is not shared by other Members of the Government. I notice that on 15th June last the Lord President of the Council, speaking at Cardiff, said:
    "Tariffs, subsidies, quotas and restrictions on the currency that could be exported to creditor countries, were problems that could not be solved merely by bilateral negotiations."
    It is that very question which I wish to bring to the notice of the President of the Board of Trade. Is he still so confident that bi-lateral negotiation is the method of restoring this country to the position which it once held? He himself has said that it would be necessary to remove tariffs and quotas in order to get back to the relative prosperity which we enjoyed in 1929. I need not give hon. Members figures with which they are no doubt familiar beyond mentioning that our exports in those days amounted to £729,000,000 or thereabouts and that to-day they represent only £425,000,000, in spite of the increase to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. The increase of £36,000,000 to the Ottawa countries between 1931 and 1935 represents the total increase in our export trade, and the increases due to the agreements are infinitesimal compared with the huge leeway which we have to make up if we are to recover the position held by us before the great slump. In 1931 our exports to the 16 agreement countries were £109,000,000. In 1935 they were £110,000,000. To the countries with no bi-lateral agreements they were £110,000,000 in 1931, and now they are £111,000,000, in round figures. Is not that a clear indication that those agreements will never restore to us the position that we have lost? In my opinion, they are a positive hindrance to us in the recovery
    2106
    of our position. If I can find no encouragement at home, I shall have to look for it abroad and I feel that, possibly, the example which the United States is giving at present affords somewhat greater hope for the recovery of world trade. Mr. Cordell Hull recently said:
    "Just as we set the vicious example of erecting trade barriers and high tariffs which induced others to follow us, so now we are asking other nations to join us in an attempt to undo the damage which our collective action has worked."
    I ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the American method, which differs from the British method in these matters, is not perhaps the right one and whether he could not, even to-day, co-operate with the United States in a definite, deliberate and persistent attempt to remove the shackles which are hampering trade to-day and which in the belief of some of us are forcing countries nearer to the possibility of war.
    Sir H. CROFT: Would the hon. Member indicate, generally, what is the level of the American tariff?
    Mr. ROBERTS: The level of the American tariff is exceedingly high, but in some of the agreements now being made by the United States, tariffs are being reduced by anything from 16 to 50 per cent. I would also point out that these are not bilateral agreements in the sense in which we understand the term in this country. The point to which I wish especially to direct the attention of the President of the Board of Trade is not unrelated to this general question, because I believe that the interests of the North of England, Wales and Scotland, the interests of the workers in the heavy industries who have suffered such a long period of unemployment, are intimately connected with the recovery of our exports in iron and steel, cotton and coal. I was sorry to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that the exports of coal in the last half year were lower, and I would direct attention to the position in the iron and steel trade, where our exports are little more than half what they were before the slump.
    The particular question which arises in this connection has been discussed in the House of Commons on another occasion. I refer to the proposed steelworks at Jarrow. I do not claim to be an expert

    2107
    in the iron and steel trade, but if the correspondence published in the Press and the Debates which took place here and in another place are studied, I think it will appear, as the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) pointed out, that this is a question of general public interest. I speak of it not because it is a question which affects the Special Areas. In some ways, I think it unfortunate that the issue has been rather confused as a result of the impression which has got abroad that the project to create a new steelworks at Jarrow was in some way a philanthropic measure for the relief of unemployment. I believe that the proposal is something bigger even than that, and that it affects the whole question of the redevelopment of our iron and steel industry with a view to the recovery of some of our lost exports in that line. It is a disquieting suggestion that such an opportunity of industrial expansion has been missed owing, possibly, to the short-sighted policy of the interests concerned and I feel that we are entitled to a full explanation, by some impartial authority, of what has happened. Statements, cross-statements and denials have been made and the general public has been left in a somewhat bewildered state of mind.
    I believe that if the public statements are carefully studied it will be found that the facts of the case are now fairly clearly established. The fundamental facts seem to be that this proposal to establish a basic bessemer steel plant at Jarrow was recommended by some of the greatest experts in the steel industry—the firm of Brassert & Company—and that the proposal was for a fully integrated plant for the manufacture of certain other products in addition to the basic bessemer. The process which it was proposed to adopt at Jarrow is one which is only being carried out at one other place in England, namely Corby. It produces a type of steel which is largely imported at the present time and a large part of which cannot be made at present in England except at Corby. It also appears that Jarrow offered opportunities of special value for developing the export trade of the Tyneside to-day. Lastly—I am quoting what I believe to be the views of a great number of experts—the process would cheapen the production of steel enormously.
    2108
    That is the case for a steel works of this sort at Jarrow. It was not to be a small plant but was to be two or three or more times the size of the old steel works which it was to replace. In those circumstances it is a matter of vital interest to the House of Commons and to all who are concerned in the redevelopment of the North of England to know why the project has not been carried out. We are constantly told that the only permanent solution of the problem on the North-East Coast, in West Cumberland and in Scotland is the revival of the basic industries. Here was an opportunity, and I think we are justified in asking the President of the Board of Trade and the authorities concerned to give a full explanation as to why this particular opportunity should have been allowed to slip. The report of the experts also took into consideration the question of whether another site on the North-East Coast would be equally satisfactory. The report, I understand, stated that Tees-side would be equally satisfactory for a plant of this sort. After very protracted negotiations, developments took place on Tees-side which made it less desirable to establish the plant at Jarrow, but those developments which have taken place on Tees-side are not carrying out the recommendations of the experts, but are rather hurried extensions of plants which exist. It is not a question of introducing the basic Bessemer process on Tees-side; it is a question of meeting the immediate demand which there is for steel by rather patchwork developments which have none of the advantages of reducing the cost of production or giving the opportunity of recapturing some of our lost export trade in steel.
    The three parties concerned have been the syndicate which originally obtained an option on the site and originally developed the idea, the Iron and Steel Trades Federation, and, of course, the Government, though I think the Government appear to have taken a somewhat negative part in a project of very great importance. We have heard that the syndicate, on the recommendation of its experts—and their experts too, for the same firm was acting for both the syndicate and the Federation—could have acted on its own and that the Federation had no power to prevent such a development. It appears to me, again speaking with no specialised knowledge of this

    2109
    subject, a rather negative attitude for the great Iron and Steel Trades Federation to take up to say, "Well, if you want to start a, new plant, you can, but it has nothing to do with us whether you do or whether you do not." I hardly think that that is the attitude which a reorganised industry should take up towards a project of such considerable importance, not only to Jarrow, but to the country as a whole, and it would seem to me that the policy which actually they did adopt up to a certain time is more the policy which one would expect such an organisation to adopt, namely, that they considered the experts' report, and that they attempted to see what co-operation could be obtained on the North-East Coast. They did obtain some very substantial support from among their members, but finally, it appears to me, this question of whether or not the industry should have been started could have been, and possibly should have been, referred to the Government. In fact, I think the Iron and Steel Trades Federation have power to prevent such a development merely by withholding their approval, and I believe that everybody who is concerned in these things knows quite well that without that approval finance would not he obtainable from any of the finance houses in London.
    Sir P. HANNON: On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member entitled to refer to the Iron and Steel Trades Federation in this connection? Surely the President of the Board of Trade has no control over the Federation?
    Mr. MAGNAY: On that point of Order. Surely the Board of Trade, which appointed Sir Andrew Duncan to organise the iron and steel trade, as he had done before that the great electricity grid, have some oversight over that organisation?
    Mr. BENSON: Further to the point of Order. If we are not entitled to discuss trade in general, surely we can discuss nothing. The right hon. Gentleman has no control over any industry, and if we are not entitled to discuss the Iron and Steel Trades Federation, we may as well close the Debate.
    The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: The Committee are entitled to discuss the Iron and Steel Trades Federation in re-
    2110
    lation to any project that comes within the scope of this Vote.
    Mr. ROBERTS: The Federation have very close associations with their customers now, and through that association they can in fact, and through their rebate system, control production to some extent, and, of course, in addition the powers which have been given recently under the Finance Act place the Federation in an enormously strong position, so strong that it would be hopeless to attempt to go forward with a project of this sort without their approval. The fact of the matter is that part of the Iron and Steel Trades Federation, the chairman and others, have supported this project whole-heartedly and that there has been a division within their own ranks, and that that part of the Federation whose interests might have been adversely affected by the construction of a new plant has won the day. It is not for me to say whether the interests of Tees-side would or would not have been affected, but there again I suggest that if the question of increasing employment in Tees-side or in Jarrow was in fact—I am not convinced that it was—the question which influenced the decision, it appears to me that there again the Government, with their special organisation for dealing with the distressed areas, should have been consulted.
    The outcome of the whole thing is that apparently the difficulties now in the way of establishing this great, modern, up-to-date plant are greatly increased. Instead of that, there are certain developments on Tees-side. I hope the matter is not going to be left there. What I fear is that the immediate dividend prospect of certain firms may have overridden the wider national interest.
    Mr. E. J. WILLIAMS: That is universally agreed.
    Mr. ROBERTS: If that is the case, then I think there is an unanswerable case for the Government to step in, to look into the question fully, and to let the public know what has happened. The Government have given this Federation great powers, and I think it is the duty of this Committee to see that those powers are not used in the interests of one small section of one industry, but that they are used in the interests of the industry and the country as a whole. We

    2111
    have heard that there is a danger of over-production and that there has been redundant plant in the iron and steel trade since the War, but there is also another danger, and that is that the powers which have been given to the industry may be used to limit its output or its capacity for output, and it seems to me that if there is a danger of the dead hand of the past preventing the modern equipment of British industry, and as vital a British industry as the iron and steel trade, then indeed there is a case fully made out for a public inquiry into the whole matter. I ask that when the Minister replies he may give us a full statement of the situation up to date and that he will grant such an inquiry.
    6.10 p.m.
    Mr. LIDDALL: I will not attempt to follow the last speaker in regard to the Iron and Steel Trades Federation, except to inform him that the federation is not a dead hand on that industry, but is a very up-to-date federation and that it has carried out that great scheme of reorganisation which has helped in no small way to make the iron and steel industry of this country as prosperous as it is at this moment. Instead of the dead hand or encouraging any derelict concerns, it is only prepared to support those works that can be efficiently managed and carried on and that in the long run are in the interests of this country.
    I rise really to make a few observations upon the trade agreements, and, critical though my observations may be, I would assure the President of the Board of Trade, through my hon. and gallant Friend the Minister for Mines, that my criticism will be friendly. I give way to no one, not even to hon. Members opposite, in my admiration of the right hon. Gentleman who is the President of the Board of Trade, and to-day I am more than ever convinced that no better man could have been found in the length and breadth of this country to supervise the great change-over in our national trade policy from Free Trade to Protection. There are certain points, however, in connection with the trade agreements on which I feel that one is justified in asking for an assurance from the Minister. It is frequently urged that special treatment should be given to the Argentine Republic because of the large amount of British
    2112
    capital invested there, and the Minister, in the House on 12th May last, stated that the amount so invested was estimated to be £435,000,000. The Minister also gave a further answer to a question put by me on 18th June to the effect that the latest available information regarding capital invested in Australia gave the amount as £524,000,000.
    With regard to the Argentine the revenue from the investments was estimated to be £8,500,000, and in the case of Australia £27,300,000. The £8,500,000 in the case of the Argentine is the estimated revenue whether remitted to this country or not. It is not known what amount has not been remitted, but in the case of Australia this difficulty does not arise. I therefore ask the Minister to bear in mind these figures, which show that our interests financially are far greater in Australia than they are in Argentina, and that therefore, apart from all other considerations, Australian interests should not be sacrificed to those of the South American Republic.
    The agreement previously made with Denmark was to some extent nullified by the withholding of licences by the Danes for the import of certain British goods from this country, and the Board of Trade are aware that at least one Lincoln firm lost orders on account of the delay in the granting of licences. Surely it is only reasonable to expect that the Danish Government should carry out their part of the agreement, and when they promise, as they recently did, to issue a substantial allocation of supplementary import licences, they should keep their promise. In regard to the difficulties which Lincoln firms have had and are still experiencing, I wish to acknowledge the helpful attitude of the right hon. Gentleman's Department, especially during the last few days, but I should appreciate the Minister's assurance that in the next agreement signed with Denmark the arrangement will be so definite that what is given with one hand will not be taken with the other. In the existing agreement with the Argentine certain restrictions are put upon the importation of chilled beef, except in experimental quantities, from Empire sources. Will the Minister in this case give his assurance that the progress of scientific research will not be hampered by such a restriction in any other agreement that may be signed? The encouragement of further

    2113
    discoveries should not be allowed either to hinder Australia's progress in that direction or to discourage Empire supplies as an alternative for this country.
    In various agreements, such as that with Denmark, arrangements were made whereby the country concerned was to be permitted a certain definite amount of exports to this country. Denmark, for instance, was guaranteed an allocation of not less than 2,300,000 cwts. of butter in any one year. There seems to be no objection to guaranteeing any particular country a certain percentage of our imports, but to guarantee a certain specific amount in times such as these, which are changing with immense rapidity, seems to be a very dangerous precedent. I hope that the Minister will give his assurance on this point and that it will be carefully considered before any such concessions are made in any future agreements. It is generally agreed that the most-favoured-nation clause has been a continual handicap to the making of satisfactory bargains. In the various agreements that have been made it cannot have escaped the Minister's notice that concessions of a similar nature given to a number of different countries and embodied in agreements which expire at different times are, in effect, extended to those countries whose agreements expire at earlier dates because the mostfavoured-nation clause secures them to those countries until the expiration of the agreements which have not then been concluded. For example, the trade agreement with Denmark could have lapsed without notice on 20th June, but it has been temporarily continued. If, however, it had been permitted to lapse we should still have been compelled to treat Danish products on just as favourable terms, because the same restrictions on our powers to increase the duties on those products are also contained in a number of other agreements, like that with Estonia, which cannot be brought to an end till 31st December of this year.
    Will the Minister take steps, either by making such agreement run for concurrent terms, or by some other means, to secure that countries shall not receive extended concessions for which nothing is given in return? In regard to the increasing seriousness of the German subsidisation of her export trade, which is responsible for so many lost orders to this country, I can only hope that the
    2114
    Minister will, as I am sure he will, keep the matter under constant review. By this method Germany is buying her way into our best markets, notably India, where she is making very free use of subsidies amounting to as much as 40 per cent. of the f.o.b. value of the goods. German manufacturers are frequently telling their customers that, whatever the British people quote, they will under-quote them by means of their subsidy. Our engineers have no subsidy, but the British Government have a new weapon with which effectively to retaliate, and I hope that the Minister will not hesitate to use it against this unfair foreign competition.
    6.23 p.m.
    Mr. R. C. MORRISON: Profiting by the example by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall), I propose to address some friendly criticisms to the Minister with regard to another department of the Board of Trade. I suppose that it is inevitable that in a general discussion on the work of a vast Department like the Board of Trade, there should be a certain amount of jumping from one subject to another. I propose to follow up a series of questions that have been asked in the House by Members of all parties during the last week or two in regard to a very extensive form of swindling that is taking place in the city of London and the country generally, and to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether there are not some steps he can take to curb the activities of certain people who are known under the somewhat unpleasant name of bucket-shopkeepers and share-pushers. This is not by any means a new subject, for it has been raised at Question time in the House recently, but the questions which have been put from all sides of the House have failed to elicit any indication from the right hon. Gentleman what his policy is, but have elicited only the fact that the point has been noted and that the information is being filed pending a general review of the Companies Act.
    In the meantime, the activities of the people to whom I have referred are increasing with considerable rapidity, and I fear that the recent vague and ambiguous replies of the right hon. Gentleman have been taken by them as an encouragement to carry on. Almost every day thousands of misleading

    2115
    circulars are sent out. I did not want to bring a lot of stuff to the Committee this afternoon, but the right hon. Gentleman might care to spend some of his spare time reading the kind of thing which is going out. I have in my hand examples of the circulars which are being set out by the thousand by new firms which are springing up every day with high-sounding names and high-sounding addresses, with telephone numbers and cable addresses. The remarkable thing about these firms is that in spite of the fact that they have imposing names and seem to consist of a number of people, they always boil down to one person. Every one of the firms which are swindling innocent people of thousands of pounds describe themselves as stock and share brokers. In contrast to the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman and his Department, the Home Office has been exceptionally active in trying to track these people down, but the people who go in for this kind of swindling upon a large scale are what they call in America "smart guys." Occasionally Scotland Yard is a little smarter than they are.
    A recent case which was heard in the court came to my notice, where a group of these people arrived from America. On coming off the boat at Southampton, they engaged within half an hour a chauffeur and a motor car, and they were driven about and proceeded merrily on their way, hoping to be back in America within three months with their haul of plunder. Instead, they found themselves in the dock at the end of the three months, and, much to their surprise, a detective in the witness-box gave evidence of the detailed movements of the gang from the moment they arrived at Southampton. The reason why Scotland Yard managed to give such complete evidence of their activities was that the chauffeur whom the gang engaged was a Scotland Yard detective.
    The Home Office, Scotland Yard and the City Police have been exceptionally clever in trying to get on the track of these people, but, unfortunately, the number who are caught are few, and unless the Board of Trade come to the support of the police these bucket shops and share-pushers will flourish and multiply. A notorious scoundrel many years ago was standing in the dock await-
    2116
    ing sentence, and when the judge asked him if he had anything to say why sentence should not be passed, is reported to have said: "My lord, there are two classes in society, those with money and no brains and those with brains and no money. It seems to me perfectly natural that these two classes should be brought together for their mutual advantage." Apparently that is the guiding principle of those people, except that the victims are frequently women and old people, and they seem to specialise in victimising widows who have some property or have been left some shares.
    Let me give the Committee one or two brief examples. In the bankruptcy proceedings in the case of C. W. Dickinson, carrying on business in the name of F. C. Owen, which took place recently, it was shown that the total liabilities were £273,337 and the assets £75. The list of creditors included 220 women and 120 clergymen. It came out in evidence during the proceedings that this gentleman had actually paid £1,000 for a list of people who were likely dupes. The debtor was described in these proceedings as a stock and share dealer. He put up this extraordinary defence, that his business was, in effect, a bookmaker's business, and he thoroughly believed that nobody expected him to have shares and he never did have any. In another case not long ago, that of Percy Bennett and Company, the liabilities were £107,000 and the assets £309. The business was run sharply and shortly. After about three months the business was wound up, the various principals disappeared, and the public had been swindled out of £107,000.
    About that time matters became so serious that the present Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, who was at that time Attorney-General, gave a special broadcast to warn the nation about the number of these people who were about, and advised people to keep out of their clutches. I am told by those who are closely in touch with this question that the right hon. Gentleman's broadcast was useful, and it is stated, though I cannot say what the authority for it is, that at least 20 of these bucket shops closed soon afterwards. Still, the fact remains that those people lie low only for a week or two till things blow over and then come out again stronger

    2117
    than ever. Indeed, some of them even turned the Attorney-General's broadcast to their own advantage. I will give the Committee a report of a recent case. I am quoting from the Press:
    "The witness spoke about hearing a broadcast by Sir Thomas Inskip in which he issued a warning against sharepushers. She went up to London and saw defendants, who explained that they themselves had asked Sir Thomas to broadcast this warning."
    That will indicate the kind of people whose activities I am trying to bring to the notice of the Committee. The lady went on to say, as indeed 90 per cent. of people would say, that she thought from the note-heading of the firm that they were members of the Stock Exchange. She lost £720 and has now had to break up her home. Referring to one of these cases not long ago, Mr. Justice Charles said:
    "So far as can be ascertained something like half a million of other people's money has disappeared with the particular gentleman who is now wanted."
    The President of the Board of Trade will remember the case of a gentleman rejoicing in the name of John Jacob Factor. John Jacob Factor carried on his activities in spite of the efforts of the "Daily Mail" to stop them, and threatened to take proceedings against the "Daily Mail" for saying he was a scoundrel. I have only raised the case of John Jacob Factor to say, in passing, that the last reference to him which I saw in the Press was the following message from Reuter's, sent from Chicago:
    "I guess the British Government is tired of spending money on me,' joked John Jacob Factor, stock promoter and speculator, in an interview. 'That English business is all washed up' he added, referring to the British Government's effort to have him extradited. 'The extradition warrant is three years old. They'll have to get a new one. I think I shall be in Chicago for a long time.' Factor really believes that he will never be extradited to England. He is wanted there in connection with alleged stock fraud amounting to £1,400,000."
    An unfortunate recent development of this evil is the fact that some of the people who are operating in this country are now extending their activities to France. Circulars have been sent to thousands of people in France from offices in the City of London. The right hon. Gentleman does not need me to tell
    2118
    him of the ill-feeling which that sort of thing will arouse between the peoples of the two countries when the French find out that those who send the circulars are really common or ordinary swindlers. The French Government is taking action, I understand, and I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman not to delay any longer in dealing with this matter. If the right hon. Gentleman and his staff are too busy to handle the matter themselves—and we all know the multitude of things that come before them—I suggest that he should set up without delay a small committee—a departmental committee or a select committee or a committee of Members of this House—to get together the evidence as quickly as possible. I am sure there is an abundance of evidence available, his own Department must have a good deal, and such a committee could suggest to him the most effective way of stopping this evil.
    If one had time one could make out an overwhelming case for action to be taken quickly. I know that in this Debate we are not allowed to suggest legislation, but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, in the statement which I am sure he will make in regard to the cases I have put, will say that he is prepared to do something without waiting for the general revision of the Companies Act which will have to take place I suppose, within the next three, four or perhaps five years. The matter is urgent and ought to be tackled before then. I believe that within three months a committee such as I have suggested would be in a position to put before the right hon. Gentleman a remedy which would meet with his approval. An announcement of some definite step would be welcomed not only by the public but by the Stock Exchange and by people who are carrying on business in the City in an honest and legitimate way.
    Some of us in this House, myself included, have had experience as voluntary magistrates in police courts. In the police court where I used to sit before I came to this House we frequently had before us people who were called street bookmakers—poor half-starved fellows who were taking 3d. and 6d. bets, acting on behalf of somebody else, and we treated those cases most severely, fining the men very large sums. Surely there is something wrong when such people are dealt with so severely—and I am not

    2119
    suggesting that they should be dealt with otherwise—and these others are robbing people of huge sums of money with impunity. The attitude of the President of the Board of Trade—I hope I am not interpreting it correctly, though it is what I have gathered from his replies to questions which I and others have put in the House—seems to be, "Oh, do not bother me, I am busy." I have proved the urgency of my case, and in conclusion would ask two definite questions, to which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to give an answer during the day. The first is, "Does he intend to wait until the general revision of the Companies Act before dealing with this evil?" The second is, "If he is uncertain where the remedy lies, will he consider this matter as urgent and set up a committee to give him advice on the matter?"
    6.40 p.m.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: I am sure that the whole House is indebted to the hon. Member for North Tottenham (Mr. R. C. Morrison) for his helpful and valuable speech. In principle I agree with every word he said. I shall do the best I can to back up his action in the matter. I do not intend to wander outside the bounds of order by suggesting legislation; indeed, no legislation is required. I agree with the hon. Member for North Tottenham that the remedy should be, to start with, the setting up of a Departmental Committee. I remember standing here this very week last year and speaking in a Debate on the Assurance Companies (Winding-up) Act, then a Bill, which had been brought in to remedy the defects in the Assurance Companies (Winding-up) Act of 1933. The reason for that Bill of 1935 was the disasters which had overtaken holders of motor car insurance policies. The public outcry had compelled the Board of Trade to bring in the 1935 Measure as a remedy. I only hope the Board of Trade will not find itself in a similar position a year or two hence through not having acted on the advice of the hon. Member opposite, which I support, but set up the inquiry before there are fresh scandals which might have been prevented if there had been an inquiry. If after the warnings which have been given to the Board of Trade by the hon. Member to-day, and those
    2120
    of us who have for several years past consistently and persistently asked the Board of Trade to have an inquiry, another company scandal does take place, and the public is robbed again, the Board of Trade will lie under a considerable responsibility for having done nothing to avert it.
    Parliament must realise, as the country does, that the holding of investments under the system of limited liability is so much a part of the commercial life of the country that the law on the subject of limited liability must be reexamined frequently in the light of what happens from time to time. Of late years, the efficacy of the broad principles of accounting in relation to balance sheets of holding or subsidiary concerns, and profit-and-loss accounts of such companies has been brought into question, and I do not think the country is satisfied that the present form of the certificates of auditors and accountants provides that full protection for honest men which they are intended by accountants to provide. if we have an inquiry we shall thresh that matter out and ascertain whether there is something wrong or lacking in the usual scope of balance sheet accounting. I believe I may say that accountants themselves are not satisfied with the efficacy of the system of certification and the construction of profit-and-loss accounts of limited companies.
    We need an inquiry into the flaws and defects of the Act of 1929. We ought to prevent a recurrence of scandals such as have been disclosed in the Courts of Law during the last seven years. So far we have always been met by a refusal by the Board of Trade to set up such an inquiry by a Departmental Committee—not of necessity staffed by officials of the Board of Trade, but composed of men, of whom there are a great many available, who have the necessary experience in the working of the limited liability system and who would willingly serve upon such a committee. Hon. Members will remember that in 1924 a Departmental Committee was set up called the Wilfrid Greene Committee on Company Law Reform. The Bill which now forms the Act of 1929 was based upon its report. We ask for another similar committee of investigation.

    2121
    Two or three years ago, the Association of British Chambers of Commerce set up its own committee, composed of leading men from the chambers of commerce in the whole of the country. There were upon that committee representatives of two or three great societies of accountants, a member of the London Stock Exchange, and a representative of provincial Stock Exchanges. I had the honour of serving on it, as I am connected with the executive of the association. We made a report, and we approached the Board of Trade, but could not get the board to move. That association, which represents the main body of commercial men in the country, does not accept the attitude of the Board of Trade, and I am certain that I would have my colleagues' authority to say so, namely, that the time is not ripe for the appointment of a Departmental Committee of inquiry. We do not agree with that attitude. I do not want to rake up unpleasant cases, but we recall that cases have been dealt with in the Law Courts, and discussed in this House; we remember the latest one. There is undoubtedly an abuse of public confidence from time to time by the use of limited liability and to such an extent that limited liability tends to become a blot upon the good name of British commercial morality. Limited liability, instead of being used as a protection for honest men, has become frequently a shield behind which rascals have been able to fleece the public.
    The recent pepper scandal has revived the demand for an inquiry into the flaws of company law under the 1929 Act. There is, to my own knowledge and in the knowledge of most hon. Members, an abundance of material in the hands of the Board of Trade to be examined, showing what are the defects in the Act of 1929. An inquiry would strengthen the hands of the Board of Trade to remedy the flaws which exist, and thus prevent rascals from fleecing the public. I do not know why the hon. Member for North Tottenham said that the inquiry could be done in six months. I do not think it could be carried out under two or three years. If an inquiry were set up, it would take two or three years to examine witnesses, sift the evidence and issue a report.
    Mr. R. C. MORRISON: My reference to six months was not to the general revision of the Companies Act, but was for dealing with the specific point which I raised.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: I accept that correction, if the hon. Gentleman does not mean a general revision of the Companies Act. But I do not think it would be proper to amend piecemeal the law dealing with limited liability. It should all be done at once, because if you are not careful you can make one Section cancel another.
    The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman cannot deal with any proposal that involves legislation.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: I am speaking of the inquiry to deal with all defects in the law at one time. I do not see why this committee could not be set up now. I would remind hon. Members that when we got the inquiry in 1923–24 it was as the result of my asking a question of Mr. Sidney Webb, the President of the Board of Trade as he was then, across the Floor of the House. He said he would give an inquiry if I withdrew the private Bill of which I had given notice. We got the committee and it was not until 1929 that we got the Act. It took five years to get it. If a committee were appointed now, I am sure that it would take four or five years before the work of the committee resulted in an Act.
    The main reason however why I rose was to refer the President of the Board of Trade to a question which was put to him yesterday by the hon. Member for Central Bradford (Mr. Leach), who asked whether the President of the Board of Trade had noted that, while wholesale prices in the country were now 2 per cent. below pre-war rates, retail prices were 40 per cent. higher. What is in that question? It is a very good question, and I am glad that the hon. Gentleman raised it. Wholesale prices have fallen, but there has been a rise in the retail prices. My right hon. Friend dealt with the question as well as he could, but he could only answer that he had no definite information to give. He could not answer the question in a way that would enable a general conclusion to be drawn from the comparison of those two figures.

    2123
    Probably the rough total of the annual income of Britain is £4,000,000,000, and of that sum £2,000,000,000 passes across retail counters. The retail trade is almost entirely employed in distributing goods to the consumers. Manufacturers know pretty well what is the cost of manufacture, but we do not know, and neither does the distributing trade, what it costs the public for the process of selling the manufactured article and getting it into the house of the consumer. In my opinion, one of the main reasons for the difference between the wholesale and retail figures is that there is far too much wastage in selling and getting the manufactured article from the shop to the consumer's house. We do not know the integral factors of the cost of that process. That is a problem to which the Board of Trade should address itself, and for which there should, again, be a departmental committee. Nor do we know why there is a difference in the cost of retail distribution of the same article in various cities. One article goes from the factory to a city, and an exactly identical article will go to another city, and be sold at a different price, on account of the variation of cost of selling and distribution. Where there is a difference in cost in various cities we ought to know the reason. The analyses can be made. At present, no attempt has been systematically made to make the analyses.
    Costs of production of manufactured goods have steadily gone down, but the cost of selling and distributing the goods has steadily gone up. If the Board of Trade is unable to undertake the duty of inquiry, I do not see why a team of young economists should not do so. There are learned economist societies in London, and others such as the Cambridge circle of economists. It would be a very good thing if they took hold of the problem and tried to find the reasons we are trying to ascertain for the high costs of retail selling and distribution. This knowledge ought to be known not only by ourselves, in the House of Commons, or by the public, but particularly by the distributing trade; it needs that knowledge. It would be interesting to me, if I were a retail trader, to know and test the efficacy of each factor in the costs of distribution of my goods. If I were ignorant in my
    2124
    methods of expenditure for attracting buyers I could not cut my prices, for fear that I should make a loss in competing with other traders. But if I knew how the cost of selling goods compared with such costs in other firms I should be much safer. There seem to be no analytic statistics in the retail trade of the costs of selling and distributing, and retailers have no data by which to detect any general weakness in expenditure on selling and distributing.
    It may be that some of the expenditure of selling and distributing is wasted. We do not know. That is the puzzle. Some people say that there are too many shops. Just as there are too many varieties in patterns of hammers or spades or office stationery or locomotives or too much variety of fashion in articles of luxury, so there may be too many retail shops to meet the needs of the public. That makes for waste, and ought to be tested or checked. The great effort of manufacturers is to do away with waste. If we have too many shops in an area, one shop filching trade from another, and all selling the same things, that is hardly good trading and is a form of waste in distribution. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is private enterprise."] It is said that there are 500,000 shops in Britain. If you reckon five people to a family, it means that you have 8,000,000 families and 500,000 shops—one shop to 16 families.
    Mr. MAGNAY: Is there not but one free price for any one article, the lowest?
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: I do not think that is so always. I think there are variations in various towns, but I should like to think the problem out before I gave an answer to that question. Uneconomic overlapping and wastage are a loss to the community, and should be stopped. As I walked here to-day, I saw the same services being sold in an unnecessary number of shops, namely banking facilities. I walked through Portman Square, Orchard Street, Baker Street and Wigmore Street. I am sure that I could have thrown a cricket ball and hit perhaps 10 branch banks of four or five separate banks. They are creating no new money, no more aggregate deposits, and represent unnecessary overlapping and probably unessential waste of effort if not of expenditure.
    Mr. ANDERSON: That is your system.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: Overlapping and wastage are axiomatically bad in every system. I should like the President of the Board of Trade to think this matter over. We want to know the cost of selling goods in shops and of getting them into the homes of the consumer, with knowledge to be applied to the general retail trade of the country and in various cities. We want to know what causes the increase in the price of goods besides profit from the time they leave the factory until they reach the house of the consumer. I have raised these questions because they may have a dominating effect upon the consideration of the cost of living and on the knowledge of the real value of wages.
    6.57 p.m.
    Mr. F. ANDERSON: I listened very carefully to the speech of the President of the Board of Trade this afternoon, to find out what was the position respecting new industries which had been established outside the Special Areas, as well as those which had been established inside. Unfortunately, we are not in a position to know what has been done by the Government since the last discussion took place upon new industries being brought into the Special Areas. So far as my own Special Area is concerned, I am not aware of any particular new industry having been established. It would be helpful to us in coming to a conclusion as to how far the Government are implementing their promises, made when the location of industries was under discussion, if we could have the information. The Government said on the last occasion that they would endeavour to use all the persuasion at their disposal to get new industries established in the Special Areas. I want to know what industries have been established in the Special Areas and outside.
    Something of a special character ought to be done to help the Special Areas. For instance, we are aware that powers which have been taken from time to time, especially with regard to the cotton trade are a form of compulsion. Some scheme should be put into operation to provide that people who desire to establish new industries must be compelled first to give consideration to establishing those industries in the Special Areas. I am not aware that any special machinery has
    2126
    been set up except the Commissioners for the Special Areas, but no existing machinery is sufficient to check the possibility of new industries being established outside the Special Areas. If it is possible to have an Import Duties Advisory Committee to advise whether tariffs should be put on certain classes of goods, why is it not possible to establish an advisory board before which peple wishing to set up new industries should appear before they are given permission to establish those industries?
    I want the Board of Trade to give careful consideration to that suggestion. Assuming, for example, that I desired to establish a new industry and the capital was at my disposal, the first thing I would look for would be a suitable place. How does the Board of Trade know that it is the intention of Messrs. A. to establish a new industry in a particular locality? That calls for some investigation of the methods adopted at present in the establishment of new industries. It may be said that it is not wise to interfere unduly with anybody who desires to establish a new industry, that they should be given the utmost freedom to establish their works wherever they think it desirable. But if that information had to be submitted to an advisory board, they would be able to give assistance of a direct character to enable the Board of Trade to say where it was best to establish the industry. I know it is done by the various development councils, but it is not in the best interests of the nation that one development council should have to compete against another for the establishment of a new industry in its area.
    If these matters were treated solely on their merits we would be able to say to the potential capitalist coming into the area, "What are your difficulties in the way of establishing your industry?" and it would be the duty of the advisory board to give all the assistance possible to make it a practical proposition for new industries to be established in the Special Areas. There are areas in Lancashire that are hit as hard as some of the Special Areas, and that is the reason why I think it is unwise to pit development council against development council. We should have some order in this business, and some vision. There should be some control of the development of new industries

    2127
    in the future. I would like the Minister who is to reply to tell us what new industries have been established in the Special Areas and how many people have been found employment, and also what has been done to try to establish other industries outside the Special Areas.
    I come from an area where there are located iron-ore and limestone and the other raw materials for the production of iron and steel. I find from the answers to questions I put a few days ago, that during the six months ended May, 1936, there were no fewer than 7,200 tons of pig-iron imported from Russia, and 41,500 tons from India. Why is it necessary to import pig-iron when we have a large number of blast furnaces out of use? The Minister may say that the furnaces have been unused for so long that it is not known whether they may be usable or not if they are required. But it should be the responsibility of the Board of Trade to investigate how far these furnaces can be put into operation. In the Special Areas alone there are 72 blast furnaces out of use, and they are capable of producing more than 2,000,000 tons of pig-iron per annum. If it is the policy of the Government to do all they can to encourage British trade, it is their business to investigate the possibility of producing more pig-iron. We must consider the possible man-power that could be employed in producing at home the pig-iron that is at present imported. Increased production of pig-iron would be an important factor to the coal industry, and would undoubtedly help it materially.
    The serious decrease in the export of coal during the first few months of 1936 shows that something tangible should be done to help the coal trade. It is not the system advocated by hon. Members on this side that is in operation; it is the system advocated by supporters of the Government, and therefore it is the Government that has to defend its policy. In response to a question which I put to the Secretary for Mines, he told us that there has been a serious decrease in export coal. It averages about 3,000,000 tons per annum. I have excluded the figures for Italy because of sanctions, but there has been an average decrease per month of 50,000 tons to Canada, 50,000 tons to Sweden, 6,000 tons to Latvia, 12,000 tons to Denmark, 21,000 tons to Belgium, 49,000 tons to Egypt and 17,000 tons per month
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    to Argentina. I have said sufficient to warrant a definite reply from the Minister on what the Government policy is with regard to export coal.
    If we are told correctly that the totalitarian States are subsidising export coal, the Minister should give some reply on what the Government policy is regarding that action. I also want to ask what the Government propose to do about increasing production and employment in the heavy industries. It is not sufficient to say that they are going to try and persuade them to do a little bit more. Persuasion has failed, and what is required is some compulsory method of regulation compelling people who desire to exploit capital for the introduction of new industries to go to the stricken areas. Looking at it from either the business or the practical point of view, I cannot understand why the Government will not say that the stricken areas shall have the best attention. The Government would receive whole-hearted support if they were prepared to set up an advisory board and use the powers of that board to give all the credit they could and all the industries they could to the depressed areas.
    7.15 p.m.
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Captain Crookshank): Perhaps it would be convenient, as the Debate seems to be going first in one direction and then in another, that I should take this opportunity of replying to one or two points which were put by the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. R. Grenfell), and at the same time offer a few observations, as my right hon. Friend said I would. Of course, he will wind up the general Debate in due course. The hon. Member for Gower was really, I think, talking Wales rather than coal this afternoon. He wanted to put before the Committee the dreadful plight in which the Principality finds itself to-day, and I must say, if he will allow me to do so, that no one could have done it in more moving terms. At the beginning of his speech, however, when he was talking of the coal trade in general, he said that we were steadily losing our trade in coal exports, but I do not think that "steadily losing our trade in coal exports" is quite the right phrase to use.
    I do not want to weary the Committee with too many figures, but, in order to get the matter into the right perspec-

    2129
    tive, I would like to give the figures of the output of coal. It is quite true that there has been a tremendous drop as compared with some years ago, but it is also true to say that 1933 saw the bottom, or, at any rate, we hope it is the bottom, because in that year the production was only 207,100,000 tons. By 1934 the figure had risen to 220,700,000 tons—quite an appreciable rise—and last year the output rose again to 222,200,000 tons; while for the first six months of this year it is 114,600,000 tons, as compared with 110,800,000 tons for the first six months of last year, an increase of very nearly 4,000,000 tons. In spite, therefore, of world difficulties, the trend seems to be towards a rise in output in this country. I have no doubt in my mind that that is largely due to the very factors which my right hon. Friend put before the Committee in his speech this afternoon—the general restoration of confidence and the general improvement in the iron and steel industry and in various other home trades.
    As regards the export side of the problem, where the hon. Member for Gower said we were steadily losing our trade, if one takes the coal cargoes exported, leaving bunkers out of account, it is not really right to say that we have been steadily losing our trade, because for the last four years, 1932–35, the figures, in millions of tons, have been 38.9, 39.1, 39.7 and 38.7. The figure, therefore, is rather a steady one. On the other hand, while it is unfortunately the fact that during the first six months of this year there has been a very large drop, the total coal shipped from this country in those six months being only 23,800,000 tons as compared with 27,000,000 tons in the corresponding six months of last year, it has, of course, to be borne in mind that there has been no trade with Italy in that period. If it had not been for the Italian position last year, which began to show itself long before there was any question of sanctions, our export trade would have compared quite favourably with the immediately preceding years; but of course the Italian position particularly hit South Wales, for Italy was its second largest market.
    Taking the country as a whole, while the exports to Italy at the beginning of the year were something like 370,000 tons a month, by October—that is to say, before there was any sanctions complica-
    2130
    tion at all—the figure for the country as a whole had dropped to 100,000 tons a month; and for South Wales, whereas in the early part of the year the average had been of the order of 180,000 tons a month, it had dropped to 70,000 by October. That was due to increasing financial stringency and the difficulty which our exporters found in getting payments for what they were sending. I think that very probably the drop would have been even greater for the country as a whole if it had not been for the fact that, as I understand, a certain number of firms went into the business who had not any debts outstanding, and who, therefore, were perhaps more ready to take a risk than those who knew that they had a lot of money owing to them, and, perhaps, not much chance of getting it back in the then immediate future. The point I am making is that the drop in the Italian trade was irrespective of sanctions, though the sanctions afterwards brought it to an end. It is not quite correct, therefore, to read into these figures that, as the hon. Gentleman said, we are steadily losing our trade in coal exports. I hope, however, that, although I have said that, no one will think for a moment that we are satisfied with the present position. I am merely trying to put a statistical summary before the Committee. Of course we are not satisfied when we have, for example, a drop in the South Wales cargo exports in the first five months of this year of 1,100,000 tons as compared with the first five months of last year. No one who was not inside a lunatic asylum would be satisfied with that.
    The hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) delivered himself of the astonishing statement that the trade agreements were in his opinion a positive hindrance to our trade. I do not know where he got that idea from, but certainly they have not been a hindrance to the coal export trade. There are various groups of countries with which we have made trade agreements, and, taking what might be called the Northern group, that is to say, the Scandinavian and Baltic countries, which do not do much trade with South Wales, so that that depressed area has not derived much advantage from improvements that have come about in our trade with those countries, our export coal trade with those Northern countries has increased by

    2131
    nearly 5,000,000 tons a year as compared with 1931, and I am glad to say that that increase is still continuing, because our exports to those countries during the first five months of this year were 73,000 tons greater than last year.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say what part of that increase was attributable to the Anglo-Polish Coal Agreement which was concluded some time ago?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: As the hon. Gentleman knows, that agreement affects percentages—
    Mr. SHINWELL: Of exports?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: Yes. Certainly, in the case of trade agreements of which I am speaking, we have got by our agreements a decent proportion of the total annual imports of those countries, and in that way they have had a salutary effect. Contrary to the view of the hon. Member for North Cumberland that they are a hindrance, it seems to me that an increase in exports during five years of the order of 5,000,000 tons a year is not exactly a hindrance; or, at least, if it is, I should like to have a great many more of them.
    Mr. W. ROBERTS: How do our exports to those particular countries compare with our exports in 1929, before the slump?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I could let the hon. Gentleman have the figures in due course; I have not them in my head. I am merely making a comparison with the position in 1931, which was the bottom year, before the agreements were made. The figures I have quoted represent the improvements which resulted from agreements made after that, when the Government of the day had adopted its fresh policy. With regard to Argentina, discussions, as my right hon. Friend said, are now going on, and, therefore, it would not be proper for me to say anything about that, but generally speaking our exports have been been kept up. Again, the German agreement of 1933 has been useful to us, because we are now getting a monthly increase as compared with the pre-agreement year. Taking the whole of Germany—that is to say, both the part to which the agreement refers, which is the Customs area, and the part
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    which is open to everyone—our net gain during the year ending in April, 1936, the third year of the operation of the agreement, was 97,000 tons per month as compared with the pre-agreement year and 16,000 tons per month as compared with the second agreement year. There again, therefore, the policy we have adopted in this direction has been fruitful, and one can only hope that it will continue to be fruitful and will increase and multiply.
    Mr. E. J. WILLIAMS: Is it not the case that there has been a fall of 17,000 tons per month in the export of coal to Argentina alone, and is not that a very serious position?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: It is just for that reason that we are at present negotiating an agreement with Argentina on the whole trade position. There are one or two further points where the figures are a little better. As regards the Irish Free State, in the first six months of last year we exported there 870,000 tons, and in the first six months of this year that figure rose by about 350,000 tons, to over 1,200,000 tons in the six months. That again can be traced back to the arrangement which was made with the Irish Free State. Finally, since 1930 we have been fortunate—and this concerns South Wales to the extent of four-fifths of the amount involved—in increasing our anthracite exports to Canada from 996,000 tons to just under 1,500,000 tons last year. Therefore, on the general question of the effectiveness of the trade agreements, the figures certainly show that they have been beneficial. But I would repeat that it is not for any of us to be complacent with regard to the whole coal position in this country to-day.
    The hon. Member for Gower suggested that the Prime Minister should go to Wales and see the depths to which South Wales had been reduced by the neglect of the Government. None of us will dispute the fact that South Wales is in a deplorable condition, but that is not due to anything that this Government has done. It is not our fault that so many ships in the world to-day use oil instead of South Wales coal; it is not the Government's fault that so many countries to-day, to which we used to export coal, now generate electricity by waterpower, although that again has had

    2133
    a considerable effect upon our coal trade; nor is it our fault that Italy could not pay her debts last year, and our exports to that country kept dropping. Neither is it our fault that there is a continued depression of trade in the gold bloc countries, which has led to a reduction of our exports to those countries. All of these things cumulatively have helped to make the position bad in South Wales, but not one of them is due to any action, either neglectful, or otherwise on the part of His Majesty's Government.
    The hon. Member for Gower said that if one went far enough back one could trace a good deal to the policy in 1920 with regard to debts and reparations. If he follows that to its originating source it will be found in the greatest Welshmen of them all, who generally sits in that corner. The hon. Gentleman says it is nothing that South Wales has done that is responsible for its present plight. I would say that it is nothing that we have clone that is responsible for its present plight either. I agree with his analysis of the position. I have been there myself, and I constantly have reports and speak to many who live there and who have daily experience of life in that depressed area, and it is uudoubtedly sad and sombre. I think the hon. Gentleman was wise in making the kind of speech that he did in order to bring home once again to the House, and through the House to the country, the depressed state of that area, because there is no doubt that, when one talks of trying to attract industry to a particular area and that kind of thing, if they realise how depressed and sad the conditions are for the people who live there, there are many people who would let that thought determine whether they went there or not. I am glad, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman said what he did. I can assure him that the problems of South Wales are continually and continuously in the consideration of the Government.
    He asked whether we would be prepared to consider a plan of reorganisation of industry in South Wales. The Wales Development Council are, as I understand it, at present engaged in a comprehensive, industrial survey of Wales and are looking into the industrial possibilities, more particularly of South Wales. There is also a committee connected with it which is investigating the
    2134
    various uses to which South Wales coal might be put, either in the raw state or distilled or hydrogenated or in other forms. My answer to the hon. Gentleman is that people are now considering a plan and, when they have done it, and bring it before the Government, naturally the Government will consider it and see what there is useful in it which might be adopted for the benefit not only of South Wales but of the country as a whole. No one in the House, whether on that bench or on this, can be satisfied with the deplorable position in which South Wales finds itself. We shall all be glad to co-operate in any plan, if he likes to call it a plan, which has a reasonable chance of success in bringing new industries into that area.
    7.34 p.m.
    Miss WILKINSON: The Secretary for Mines has closed one section of the Debate and my special problem is with the President of the Board of Trade. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is one of the most charming and disarming speakers in the House, and he has conclusively proved that he is not responsible either for drought or flood or any other act of God, such as the discovery of oil-burning fuel. I can honestly say that we are now dealing with a problem which very definitely is not an act of God but an act of man, and we are here to ask the President of the Board of Trade for some help that can be given to what is now regarded as not one of the most hopeless but certainly one of the most difficult areas in the country. He pointed out with some pleasure that the present production of iron and steel had reached 11,500,000 tons. I take it that, following the various Debates, not really on iron and steel but on those trades into which iron and steel largely enter, he does not regard that 11,500,000 tons as the peak of the iron and steel demand. We are now, so to speak, not at the end but at the bginning of a demand period for steel. That being so, we are faced with a position where a trade which since 1921 has been getting more and more waterlogged and more and more in pawn to the banks is suddenly asked to increase its output. That is just the right moment for really comprehensive planning. I admit that you cannot plan the weather, but at least you can plan something like the production of a commodity where the plant generally has not been kept up-to-date.

    2135
    I am speaking particularly with regard to the steel works at Jarrow. In 1934, when the question was first mooted, the experts who were putting their plans before the Iron and Steel Federation envisaged a total production of 10,500,000 tons, not in 1936 but in 1940. We have reached 11,500,000 tons in 1936, and the demand is still rising. What is going to be done now? What is the immediate future going to be? We are not anxious to pit one area against another. We are most anxious not to have a Tyneside and Tees-side quarrel. We suggest that in this problem the national interest should be considered and that, so far, one section of the interest in the iron and steel trade has been allowed to be both judge and jury. Speeches are sometimes made, even by my own colleagues, which, in their natural anxiety to get employment, suggest conversion to the highest forms of protection. I am afraid I do not share that attitude, but the employing interests cannot have it both ways. They cannot on the one side demand practically prohibitive tariffs and the assistance of the Government in getting cartel arrangements which put the whole thing practically into the grip of monopoly and at the same time say this industry is their own to do as they like with. If you have a laissez faire employer who says, "This is my own business, I will be beholden to no man and I do not want a penny from anyone," that is arguable. That is the old diehard Free Trade position. But, if you have people who not only accept but demand tariffs, which have been increasing from 33⅓ to 50 per cent., and then a quota scheme, and now practical prohibition, they must at the same time accept the social responsibility for the results.
    It is on that point that we want to have some reply from the Minister. Is he really content to turn over the whole question of steel production to the firms at present in the British Iron and Steel Federation because, if so, we are in this position, that the country is being asked to pay, and is paying, higher rates than it need in order to have the iron and steel produced in this country and at the same time is paying into one distressed area like Jarrow £348,000 a year for public assistance and unemployment benefit. A prominent steel manufacturer
    2136
    pointed out to me partly in a joke, that is double the amount of capital that would be necessary to build a steel works at Jarrow. He said, "If that is the figure, you could make the steel and give it away, and it would pay the country." Next week the House will be debating regulations that make arrangements for the minutest inquiry into the affairs of every recipient of every penny of that £348,000. But the country can make a present of millions of pounds to this monopoly, and there is to be no inquiry at all. That is not a position which the country is willing to put up with. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his courteous reception of the Jarrow deputation, when he gave us over an hour of his very overcrowded and valuable time. I have never known the Press so united on anything as on the fear of this enormous monopoly growing up and strangling a whole town. In concentrating on Jarrow we are not dealing with that town only. We are using it to focus attention on the whole activities of the British iron and steel trade. If it had not been for the Debate on Clause 6 of the Finance Bill, these arrangements would have gone through and the country would have had no idea of what has happened.
    I should like to call attention also to what the Commissioner for the Special Areas I know has put before the Minister over and over again. These are just three figures which give an indication of how this town of 35,000 inhabitants is being strangled. There are 1,300 men only working in that huge town, of able-bodied men who have exhausted their unemployment benefit there are 1,568, and on unemployed benefit there are 4,748. If you add the able-bodied men on public assistance to those on unemployment benefit, that is 82 per cent. of the manpower idle in that town. This is an area which could have had the most up-to-date steel works in Europe. An hon. Gentleman who occupied a seat on the back benches opposite said that this was a derelict industry and that the Government were obviously not going to do anything for such an industry. The one thing that Jarrow wants to do is to get rid of this air of charity which somehow or other has gathered round this town. This is a highly skilled, authenticated proposition put forward by hard-headed business men who are as astute as Sir

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    Andrew Duncan, Chairman of the Iron and Steel Federation. We do not want to go into the whole of the negotiations. We know that it is no use now. The Federation published a statement in a newspaper which made it clear that, in fact, the North-Eastern steel firms have turned down this matter.
    We want to ask the Minister two things: First, will he on national grounds give the country an inquiry into the whole question of why this project was turned down, and whether it was in the national interests, or in the interests of the profit-making of the existing firms. The second thing that we want to know is whether the Minister has any alternative plan for this town. We suggest that it is not possible to leave an area like Jarrow in the state in which it is to-day. The people will not stand it. They have put up with it for so long because they were buoyed up with the hope that the shipyards would be reopened, and later by the prospects of the erection of the steel works. We do not know even yet whether this matter is ended. We do not know until we have heard the statement of the Minister whether any pressure is to be brought upon the Steel Federation. If this is not to be so, what is to be done? We want to get away from the idea—we have had the Minister's statement that we should—that this is a hopeless, dirty, draggle-tail place. Really, that is not the case as we have laid it before the Minister. I have had some experience of local authorities, and I know of nowhere where ordinary men and women of the town take such an interest in the meetings of the town council as they do at Jarrow. There is a long queue every time the council meets. The council has shown itself to be most up-to-date. It has built a new housing area, and it has, in the biggest way, offered to make plans for replanting the town if necessary in order to improve the river frontage. There is a frontage, with one mile of river, with water 35 feet deep, within two and a half miles of the sea. In addition there is the offer of special facilities from the Tyne Industrial Development Committee.
    This is an area which this country cannot afford to leave as a derelict area; it simply cannot afford to do so. Here you have a site which has been admitted to be ideal for a steel works. Are we to
    2138
    have a steel works? If not, has the Minister any alternative suggestion? It is not good enough for Ministers who have demanded tariffs and quotas to come along and say, "We are very sorry, but we really have no power in the matter. We cannot give public money." Incidentally no one has asked the Government for a penny for the steel works. Once the barrier was lifted, we have the assurance of the promoter of the syndicate, that the money could be raised within a week, so that there is no question of money. If we are not to have the steel works, the Government must come forward with some alternative plan. We have passed out of the period when we could wash our hands of such a matter and when trade was not a question for this House. The House is in a position to demand planning. We see even the most unplannable industry, that of agriculture, being planned by the Minister of Agriculture, and we ask the President of the Board of Trade, What are your plans about Jarrow? We in Jarrow have done almost everything and are willing to do anything, but we are not willing to stand by and see some of the finest men of this country drifting year by year into further hopelessness. You cannot say that this is sobstuff and that we are pleading for charity. We have put before the Government an up-to-date plan, and if it is being turned down by the people who are in the hands of the Government and are dependent upon the Government for orders and for their tariff and cartel arrangements, the Government must say, "We have some alternative." I ask the Minister, when he replies to-night, to say what is his plan and what is his alternative for Jarrow.
    7.52 p.m.
    Sir JOHN JARVIS: I wish, first of all, to congratulate the hon. Lady the Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) upon her very forcible speech. She has rendered all the help that can be given. We do not see eye to eye on other matters, but on the matter of Jarrow we are as brother and sister. It is of the greatest importance that there should be an investigation into all the forces which appear to be preventing the steel works in Jarrow from being built. I do not propose to go over all the ground which was covered very ably by the hon. Gen-

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    tleman the Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) and by the hon. Lady. For 20 months, as the Committee know, the fortunes of the steel works of Jarrow have ebbed and flowed, and the final decision, it seems to me, must be reached to-night because this matter cannot go on indefinitely, dragging out its existence with no apparent end. I purpose to deal with only three points, which are more or less new, and I hope that I may convince my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, that there is justification for the investigation which we want to be made.
    Unfortunately, in the last Debate the respective merits of the Tyne and the Tees were called into account. I am one who has said repeatedly in the North that I desire to see all men on the Tees at work, just as much as I desire to see all men on the Tyne at work. If it is to become a fight between the Tees and the Tyne, the Tees holds all the losing cards. I have made inquiries in the North—I was there over the week-end—and I find these facts: In the Tees the draught of vessels for the steel works are limited to 22 feet 6 inches, and the maximum tonnage is 7,000. In the Tyne the draught of vessels is much greater, and there is no limit to the tonnage of ships that come in. The Olympic of 45,000 tons is alongside one of our docks to-day, and we can get the largest vessels into this noble river.
    I would remind the Committee that the sources of ore supply are steadily becoming less. Most of it, as hon. Members may know, comes from the north of Spain, and the nearer Mediterranean, and these supplies are not illimitable. The supply of Spanish ore is becoming less and less, and in the near future some one will have to look much further afield for this very necessary raw material. To-day we have ore coming from as far away as West Africa, and I understand—and I must be a little wary here—that the Iron and Steel Federation are making inquiries for ore coming from even more distant parts. These distant supplies must come in the largest vessels, which the Tees cannot possibly carry. The first essentials for cheap ore are, that it must come to a site with a water front, there must be a great depth of water,
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    and there must be an abundance of cheap coal and cheap sea transport. Nowhere else can all these advantages be found to the same extent as at Jarrow.
    There are only two places in the world which have such facilities for dealing with large ore vessels. The first is at Baltimore, where the Bethlem Steel Works are situated. They get their ore from Chile, and bring it in 21,000-ton vessels, and they can unload each vessel in 15 hours. It would be possible to do the same thing in Jarrow. The second place is at the German steel works on the Rhine. The big ships go to Rotterdam, which, of course, can take the biggest ships, and the ore is transferred to lighters, which are 4,000-ton ships, and is then sent to its destination on the Rhine. We could deal with ore at Jarrow much more cheaply than that.
    My second point is that the Tees has conducted a policy of modernising existing plants in a great number of cases. This may be justified in order to get quick production, but, taking the long view, it is, in my opinion, economically unsound. No modernised steel works can represent the latest technique in steel production, which is absolutely necessary if we are not to lag behind in the future. Take the case of Bessemer steel, which it is proposed to make in Jarrow. I have it on the highest authority that this country could absorb no less than 3,000,000 tons per annum. Of this amount we make only a quarter of a million tons, and at the proposed new steel works at Jarrow, I believe, it is intended to make only another quarter of a million tons, so that it is foolish to say that there is not a necessity in this country for basic Bessemer steel plant. The plant proposed at Jarrow would be the most efficient in the country. It would displace no workman in the north of England and probably none elsewhere, and it would have the added advantage that if, unfortunately, war should come, we could get practically the whole of the ore we required for this type of steel works from the Lincolnshire district.
    Therefore, there seems to be no reason and no excuse why any hindrance should be placed upon erecting this new steel plant at Jarrow. Surely, it is a heaven-sent chance for the Government to do a great work for one of the worst distressed areas without the cost of a

    2141
    single penny to the taxpayers. The capital, no doubt, as we have heard to-night, can be found. Take away the influence of the Steel Federation, and the money necessary for this great work will be forthcoming through the usual channels very quickly. If there is a matter upon which every party in this House is agreed, it is upon the desire to help the distressed areas of this country. Here is a golden opportunity for helping, on the one hand, the people who have a right to demand our help, and, on the other hand, of developing one of the great industries of the country in the best possible way. This is a great opportunity. If it is not dealt with now it may be lost, and, having been lost, the opportunity may never recur.
    7.59 p.m.
    Mr. EDWARDS: As a representative of a Tees-side. constituency, I am glad to have an opportunity of addressing the Committee upon this subject. Unfortunately, I was abroad when it was debated the last time, but I have read every speech which was made, and I believe I have read everything that has been published in the Press upon this subject. When it comes down to the final question, the complaint seems to be that the Steel Federation has not given its blessing to this particular scheme. No one can deny that this subject has had as much publicity as most subjects. I do not believe that anything that is available has not been published. It is sometimes vaguely hinted that when all the cards are put on the table we shall change our minds. Let us have all the cards on the table. To-night there is the opportunity. I was told yesterday that when the whole story was told there would be a very different impression made in the House of Commons. Why not let us have the whole story? I presume that now that the speakers for Jarrow have spoken we have the whole facts before us.
    Miss WILKINSON: We want an inquiry.
    Mr. EDWARDS: It is said that an inquiry is wanted. I do not object. I have always said that there has been a reasonable case for Jarrow, but I have also said that there is a reasonable
    answer. One of the great difficulties placed in the way of arriving at a final and fair judgment on this matter has been the difficulty that the people favour-
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    able to this enterprise in Jarrow have not said whether they stand as business men or philanthropists. It is a great pity when a business proposition gets mixed up with philanthropy. I addressed the House in March on this subject, and I stated then, and it has never been questioned, on information which was given to me as authentic, that the cost of putting down a steel plant in Jarrow of the same capacity as that which could be put down on the Tees would be nearly twice the capital expenditure. I suggested to the House then and I suggest now that it would be very difficult to justify putting down a plant at that cost. It is no solution of a problem like this to rob Peter to pay Paul.
    It is suggested that by going on with this scheme at Jarrow we should not put any men out of work on the Tees. I do not agree with that statement. I believe that it would put men out of work on the Tees. What the supporters of the Jarrow scheme are asking the Government to do is to say to the Tees-side Federation: "You shall not develop your plant any further." In other words, they are to interfere with the natural and normal development on Tees-side.
    Mr. MAGNAY: There is one point that I should like to raise, because I may not be called upon to speak. Is it not a fact that in the Tees-side area they never extended their work until application was made for the establishment of the steel works at Jarrow, and then they did make efforts?
    Mr. EDWARDS: I do not know about the formal application, but I can tell the hon. Member that it is more than two years since I discussed this matter with the Tees-side manufacturers, and they knew then that the time was coming when they would be compelled to put down additional plant. It is a new development and a natural development. It is a natural and normal development of Tees-side plant to cope with a new demand. It is true that that demand has increased much more rapidly than any of us anticipated, and that is all to the good. It is true that there has been a shortage of certain classes of steel, and also a shortage of pig iron. There has also been a shortage of coke but, as the Minister said, that is being rapidly dealt with.

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    The Government made one specific demand of the Federation, and it was to reorganise. When they were given protection it was specified that they should rationalise the industry. They were bound to do that. Hon. Members will recollect that the protection was actually withdrawn for a period because they did not move rapidly enough in that direction. At that time I criticised the leading manufacturers myself, and we had a controversy raging for a considerable period, because they were not moving as quickly as I thought they ought to do, but I say to-day, and no one can deny it, that the steel industry has made tremendous strides. It has reduced costs and it has rationalised in every sense of the word. The Government demanded that. Having done that and having brought some prosperity to the industry and the areas concerned, are we going to ask the Government to say to them: "Thus far and no further"? Are they to be stopped at that point? It would be much more reasonable to say to them: "Now that you have got down the costs, now that you have rationalised, you can go on and provide what is desired by the total consumption of this country."
    There is not the slightest justification for saying that there can be any economies effected at Jarrow. On the contrary, I have very good authority for saying that the cost of delivery to customers will more than offset any economies. If we were to take any plant in the country and if we provided the capital to scrap that plant and to put down the latest design of plant, then obviously we should get lower costs of production, but are we going to argue for that reason that we must not only permit this enterprise—that is what the Federation is being asked to do—but that Tees-side manufacturers should be asked to finance and build up a formidable competitor on the Tyne? In effect, that is what they are being asked to do. We have more men unemployed in Middlesbrough than there are in Jarrow. A few years ago we had plant that we thought would never be used again but, fortunately, to-day we see it occupied almost to capacity. The plant at Jarrow, if the scheme goes on, will come into operation in about two years' time, when experts tell us we are going to enter into another depression,
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    therefore, many of us feel that the proposition is to spend money on plant which when it is completed will be redundant.
    There is another matter which I should like to give to the House, although I have mentioned it before. In considering Tees-side we have absolutely no other interest than steel. We are dependent entirely, in Middlesbrough at any rate, on the iron and steel industry. There is shipbuilding, what is left to us, and the Imperial Chemical Industries plant has assisted the district somewhat. In 1929 we had our previous record output, but in 1935 we exceeded that record, with 6,000 fewer men employed to do it. Employment or re-employment is not keeping pace with increasing demands, unfortunately, and I do not think that we can recommend the Government to go out of their way to help to build up a competitor to our industry in another place, unless it can be justified on its merits. If it can be justified on its merits, what is the difficulty.
    Miss WILKINSON: The Federation.
    Mr. EDWARDS: We are told that they are in the way throughout. We are told that the obstacle is the Federation because it will not go out of its way to give its blessing to this proposed enterprise. You can approach the Federation as business people but not as a guild of help.
    Miss WILKINSON: I do not want to interrupt my hon. Friend. The last thing that I want to do is to get into controversy with my late constituent. So much of this argument is running simply on parallel lines. We are not talking about the same thing. At the previous discussion it was perfectly clear that the Federation was not asked to give its blessing to a charitable enterprise, but that it was refusing to allow a highly competitive rival the opportunity to compete. It may be asked why should they have a rival; but do not let it be suggested that we are thinking of running a charitable guild steel works at Jarrow.
    Mr. EDWARDS: Jarrow does not want charity. This is not philanthropy. If it is not philanthropy, it is nonsense to talk about it in that way. It has been spoken of as partial philanthropy. All this talk about partial philanthropy and

    2145
    about doing Jarrow injustice ought to be dropped, and the sooner it is dropped the better for Jarrow.
    Sir J. JARVIS: Who has ever suggested that it is philanthropy? We have always said that it is a commercial proposition.
    Mr. EDWARDS: I have here the official report, from which I could quote a statement of the hon. Member where he said that some of his friends were willing to come in as philanthropists. That will not work. He said that some of his friends were interested in going on with this proposition partially on philanthropic grounds. That sort of statement has caused a great deal of mischief. The country wants to know whether or not this is a business proposition. There are a considerable number of people who believe that this proposed plant in Jarrow will be redundant when it is ready, or it will render redundant some of the plant on Tees-side. The question whether or not the federation has blessed it should be settled once and for all. The federation makes rules for its members, and we cannot object to that. Rules are the tenets of trade unions and a member of a trade union is supposed to subscribe to those tenets. The federation have their rules and they expect their members to adhere to those rules, and no one can blame them or say that they have gone beyond that. They have to conform to rules. Indeed, the Government have compelled them to have rules.
    A great deal of play has been made of the statement that Sir Andrew Duncan at one time approved of this scheme. I would, however, point out that Sir Andrew Duncan was not appointed as an expert on iron and steel. His greatest qualification was that he was not an expert and that he would be able to bring an impartial judgment to bear. He may have approved of the scheme, but the fact is that when he had had time to consider the question with experts he decided that it was not a practical proposition. A great deal of play has also been made of another statement of a certain gentleman—an expert. I do not question his authority. He has stated that this scheme would be a success and that it could produce steel economically. I do not question that, but I do not think that he said that steel could be produced
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    more economically at Jarrow than on the Tees.
    Reference has been made to the size of ships, which is the only thing said in favour of Jarrow. I would ask hon. Members to translate that into pounds, shillings and pence in its effect on the cost of the production of steel. It is negligible. On the Tees we had a scheme for new docks to provide for larger ships, and it was only the depression that prevented us going on with that development. The expert who has been quoted said that the question was whether the Tees or Jarrow should be selected as the place to put down new plant. On one point Jarrow had it, and on another point the Tees had it. Can hon. Members be surprised if he favoured Jarrow? Can they imagine a lawyer being consulted and advising his client not to go to law? A human being who makes his living by advising people when they require certain expert opinion, naturally gives the advice they want, and it would be to his interest to have the plant put down at Jarrow. Therefore, we must not place too much reliance on that advice.
    I do not know of a single fair statement that has been made which justifies the Government in doing anything to develop this plant on the Tyne. On the last occasion when I spoke I offered to help the people who are interested in helping Jarrow, and who say that they have considerable financial resources, to do something much more practicable and more profitable for Jarrow, and I will make the offer again. If hon. Members from the Northern district will read the report of those who have been studying for years this very problem they will find that they recommended them to do one thing. That is, that all local authorities should collectively study to buy everything possible within their own area. I have tried to estimate the things which local authorities have to purchase, and I have discovered that one of the principal things which they purchase is not manufactured in the area. I shall be very glad to give those who represent Jarrow the fullest information on the point.
    The President of the Board of Trade can do one thing which would put more men into work than anything else, without the disadvantage of putting men out of work in another area. If the Presi-

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    dent would hurry up the Committee a little I think they might produce a scheme for producing oil from coal on a profitable basis. There is no better place to put hydrogenation plant than Jarrow. It would be possible to start such a scheme next week, and it would put more men into work during the constructional period, in fact twice as many men, as would be the case by the establishment of steelworks. And it would find permanent employment for as many men as steelworks would employ. It is not a well thought out scheme supported by expert opinion. When put to practical people who would have to run it, there was no one who would support it. Somebody would have to find the money, and that is the investing public. It would be merely exploiting public sentiment in asking the public to invest millions of pounds unless you were quite certain that it was going to be a safe investment. That is not the case. Ill-advised philanthropists do as much harm as a Hatry in connection with schemes like this. I hope the Government will not give it their support, but will take other measures to help Jarrow.
    8.18 p.m.
    Mr. MAGNAY: I do not propose to make a speech on the distressed areas. We have discussed them ad nauseam and after the Debate a fortnight ago I said that I would never speak on the distressed areas again because it took too much out of me: I could not trust myself to express adequately the needs of these areas. I take it for granted that the Committee and the country know full well all about the problem which faces us in these Special Areas. Nor am I going to say anything about the manufacture of steel, for the obvious reason that I know nothing about it—[An HON. MEMBER.: "Hear, hear!"]—or just as much as some hon. Members who have spoken to-night, that is, little or nothing. I am told by a friend of mine who is a real expert on this matter that if the Jarrow steelworks are established and basic Bessemer steel made, they will not compete with Middlesbrough; the fears of my Middlesbrough friends are groundless. There is no fear of any competition between Jarrow and Tees.
    Mr. EDWARDS: How can competition be avoided?
    Mr. MAGNAY: I understood the hon. Member for Guildford (Sir J. Jarvis) to say that there was a demand for 3,000,000 tons of Bessemer steel, and that there would be a great surplus required even after the works at Jarrow were going at full capacity. I have been told by an hon. Member that if steelworks are established at Jarrow other industries are likely to go to the Tyne.
    Mr. EDWARDS: Even if steelworks at Jarrow would not compete with Middlesbrough they would prevent Middlesbrough developing in another way.
    Mr. MAGNAY: I have been informed—I cannot say this out of my own knowledge—that no attempt was made to enlarge the Tees-side works until two years ago, when they heard the rumour that the Jarrow steelworks were a possibility.
    Mr. EDWARDS: Quite untrue.
    Mr. MAGNAY: That is what I have been told, and if the hon. Member will read the Debate in another Chamber he will find confirmation of what I am saying. I want to say on behalf of hon. Members for the North-East Coast who support the National Government that we held a meeting yesterday at which we expressed regret at the recent occurrences and disputes in the Press and in this House and in other places, and hoped that a way would be found to commence the steelworks at Jarrow on an economic and permanent basis. I agree absolutely that it would be the utmost folly to start steelworks at Jarrow or anywhere else if there was no solid prospect of good work continuing for some time. For this purpose we suggest that the Government should—
    Mr. FURNESS: I do not want to interrupt the hon. Member, but when he uses the word "we" I think he should tell us whom he means. It does not concern my constituency, and I should be surprised if one particular hon. Member from the North-East put his name to this document.
    Mr. MAGNAY: This is a resolution which was carried last night, and if hon. Members who were not there object I am not to blame. If the hon. Member desires I will say "for myself." For these reasons I hope the Government will get

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    into touch with the interested parties and re-open friendly negotiations. I emphasise the word "friendly." We were very anxious about that. We were all agreed that until a decision is arrived at the proceedings ought to be kept secret by the Government, so that the hearts and spirits of the people of Jarrow would not be broken by false hopes being engendered, as they have been, unfortunately, during the last year or so. I submit that the Committee cannot come to a right and just conclusion or decision, because it does not know the facts. That is obvious to me. There will be present in everybody's mind the Debate which took place a fortnight ago and the conflict there was on questions of fact and also, as one might have expected, on matters of opinion. Hon. Members will also have read the Debate in another place two days ago, when exactly the same thing happened. Therefore, it seems to me obvious that the Committee cannot come to a right and just decision because it is not in possession of the facts of the situation. Nor, I venture to say, can the Government come to a proper decision, because they are not in possession of the facts.
    It is here that I wish to make an appeal to the President of the Board of Trade. I would ask that there should be an inquiry by an impartial body into the facts, and that a decision should be arrived at. I could suggest a body which is competent, fair and experienced, but it is not my province to do any such thing. I would suggest, however, that an impartial body, competent to deal with the facts, to examine them and to elucidate the truth, should sit immediately and find out what are the facts, and give the Government the benefit of its opinion. Its findings should be sent to the Government, and they alone should decide on a matter of high policy. It is not a matter of the Tees and the Tyne, but a matter of national policy. It raises, among other things, the question of the migration of industries and the preference that the Government have by Statute given, all other things being equal, to the Special Areas. The Government ought to decide upon this. In conclusion, may I express the hope that this grave matter will cease to be a political stunt or merely an economic proposition, and that it will be seen and judged in
    2150
    the light of the provision, if at all possible—
    Miss WILKINSON: Does the hon. Member suggest that anybody has been making a political stunt of this matter? Does he suggest that careful reasoning before the Committee is a political stunt?
    Mr. MAGNAY: I suggest that this is not merely a political matter or an economic matter; it is a matter of high policy which the Government should decide. It is a matter which ought to be considered coolly and deliberately by a competent body, which would see what are the facts and the arguments for and against, and, having come to a conclusion, pass it on to the Cabinet for a decision as to what should be done. I hope the matter will be seen in the light of the provision, if at all possible, of the means for giving work and earnings to the men in the distressed area of Jarrow and in the Tyneside.
    8.30 p.m.
    Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH: I would like briefly to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough East (Mr. Edwards). I can support him fully, because to-night we are not divided on this matter in parties, but rather in catchment areas. It was suggested, much to my surprise, by the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Magnay) that there is here no question of competition between the Tees-side and the Tyneside. He ventured to rebuke the hon. Member for Middlesbrough East as though the hon. Member had not been present—I think he was—when the hon. Member for Guildford (Sir J. Jarvis) spoke. I wonder whether the hon. Member for Gateshead was present, or whether he took in all that the hon. Member for Guildford said. I was present all the time, and when the hon. Member for Guildford spoke he put it most emphatically as a matter of competition between the Tyneside and the Tees-side. He told us in some detail of the advantages of the Tyne and the disadvantages of the Tees.
    Mr. MAGNAY: If the hon. Member puts it that way, I would say that the hon. Member for Guildford was showing the advantages of the Tees and the advantages of the Tyne, and stating that in his opinion the Tyne had the greater advantages. That might apply anywhere.
    Mr. GRIFFITH: The hon. Member by his interruption has not in the least invalidated what I was saying. If this is a question of showing on the one side the advantages of the Tyne and on the other the disadvantages of the Tees, that obviously makes it a matter of competition between the two places and assumes that there will be competition between them. If there is to be no competition between them, there is no sense in talking about the advantages of one or the disadvantages of the other. Speaking for myself, I cannot imagine that those who are engaged in the management of this great industry in the areas in which it is now carried on in the north-east would be so foolish, in their own interest, as to try to continue their industry in a particular area if its prospects were as hopeless as the hon. Member for Guildford seemed to be trying to make out. It would be a mad attempt on their part to try to make new developments and to modernise their plants—which the hon. Member for Guildford seemed to think they ought not to do—if, from the expert information in their hands, they were not quite confident that they would be able to carry on. After all, can it be suggested that the Tees-side cannot do this work? They have been doing it there for a considerable time, they have been struggling through the time of depression, and they are now coming back a little to greater prosperity.
    I have not heard anybody suggest that the Tees-side is not doing this work with the greatest efficiency. If that be the case, I cannot help thinking that, as an abstract proposition, it would be false economy from the point of view of providing work if one tried to cure the distress in an area which has suffered for a long time by setting up industrial activities which would draw away from employment somewhere else. Although I join with the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East in saying that the district which we represent has nothing to fear from an inquiry which would make the facts known, I would ask that any inquiry undertaken—if it is necessary and if the President of the Board of Trade feels that he has not already the facts—should be made with no prejudice in favour of one area as against another, and with the recognition that no good will be done by making an artificial industry at the expense of one which is
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    enjoying a vitality of its own, which it has preserved through most difficult times and which we believe it will be able to preserve triumphantly in future if it is given at all times a fair deal.
    8.35 p.m.
    Mr. W. JOSEPH STEWART: As I listened to the speech of the President of the Board of Trade and his suggestion as to the amount of prosperity that had come to our country, I was almost persuaded that Durham County was not part of the British Isles. We have been debating now for over an hour the very important question of whether or not Jarrow should have work for its people and I sum up the situation in this way. To-night's Debate suggests to me a gamble with the lives of our people. We are debating whether thousands of men, women and children are to have bread and butter or not. If the Government are not prepared to help Jarrow in the matter of these steel works, what are they going to do? What is their policy to meet the needs of that great township? I happen to represent an adjacent constituency, and as a member of a local authority it has been my lot to sit on the Jarrow board of guardians and to deal with the cases of the people who present themselves monthly and weekly for Poor Law relief. The cases that have been cited to us there, time and again, suggest to me and to many others that the condition of Jarrow is infinitely worse than that of any other township in England or Wales.
    As a member of the Durham tuberculosis after-care committee I go to Jarrow periodically to deal with cases of those who have passed through sanitoria and also those who are awaiting sanatorium treatment. We as a committee are faced with this position, that people who are enlisted to go into the sanatorium have no clothing, no boots and not a penny in cash. It should be realised that these conditions exist today in a township which, in past years, was one of the most prosperous on Tyneside. Surely someone ought to shoulder the responsibility, and seek by wise speculation and wise administration to bring a measure of succour to that township which is suffering to much to-day. In Jarrow the percentage of unemployed among the insured poplation is 70.1. That being the position, there ought to

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    be no argument as to the establishment of the proposed steel works on the admirable site which has been suggested at Palmer's old shipyard. If we cannot have the steel works, is it not possible to put down in Jarrow, as has been suggested, a hydrogenation plant? If the steelworks project has to go by the board, surely we are not bankrupt in ideas of other means of helping Jarrow. Surely we are not going to leave it derelict. If the Government do not realise their responsibility and grasp this opportunity of doing something for the people of Jarrow, in all probability they will rouse a storm of indigation there which will have its reflex at the next General Election.
    We have been told by the right hon. Gentleman that there is a certain amount of prosperity now in Durham, and I would like to quote to the Committee some figures which indicate the conditions now prevailing in that county. In the administrative county of Durham there are 13,842 persons who have been out of work for more than a year; 7,656 have been out of work for more than two years; 6,355 for more than three years; 6,619 for more than four years; and 7,792 for more than five years. Where is the prosperity? There are over 42,000 persons in that county who have never been reached by the prosperity mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. As regards the percentage of insured unemployed, in February, 1934, the figure for the whole country was 18.6 per cent., and the figure for Durham County was 36 per cent. In February, 1936, the figure for the country was 16 per cent., and notwithstanding all that we are told the Government have done since 1931, the figure for Durham County reached 31.5 per cent. In the Bishop Auckland area between 20 and 30 collieries are closed down. The township is practically derelict and has 52.8 per cent. of the insured population unemployed. In East Boldon the percentage is 40.6 per cent., in Lanchester it is 38.5 per cent., in Shildon it is 46–6 per cent., and, as I have already indicated, the black spot of the county is Jarrow with 70.1 per cent.
    Let us consider the number of persons per 10,000 of the population in receipt of Poor Law relief in 1935 in various parts of the country, bearing in mind the statement that prosperity has come to us and that trade is reviving. In Surrey
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    the figure was 117 per 10,000; in Glamorgan, 669 per 10,000 and in Durham county, which is supposed to have had a wave of prosperity, it was 755 per 10,000. Let us take the relief figures of Durham since the Government took over responsibility for the welfare of the people of this country. The number of persons in receipt of Poor Law relief in Durham in 1931, the first year of the National Government's life was 51,506, at a weekly cost of £13,815; in 1936, after five years of National Government, the figures have gone up to 64,281, at a weekly cost of £21,424, an increase of 12,755 persons and £7,609 in weekly cost. Surely, bearing those figures in mind, the right hon. Gentleman cannot suggest for a moment that if we have this revival in trade and prosperity coming to our shores, this prosperity has to any appreciable extent reached Durham county, which is a Special Area and which has been neglected by the National Government.
    I remember sitting in this House as a new Member and listening to a speech by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister on 3rd December last year, when he told us what the Government were prepared to do to help the Special Areas. He promised the setting up of trading estates in the Special Areas so as to introduce new industries, bring prosperity, and find work for our vast army of unemployed. As a result of questions during this last week, it appears that after seven months the Government have not even got a site in the Special Areas for a trading estate. I would like to take the record of a survey of industrial development for 1933 issued by the Board of Trade. The new factories opened in 1932 gave employment to 83,250 persons. One would naturally think that, if we had a vast army of people brought into employment through the introduction of new factories, some of them would have flowed towards the depressed areas, but according to the returns we find that out of those 83,250 persons employed, there were only 900 who found work in Durham, Northumberland, and the North Riding of Yorkshire. Take the survey covering 1934. There was a total of 478 new factories started and 144 extensions in the whole country, and out of those there were only seven new factories and two extensions in the Special Areas. Surely, bearing all those facts in mind, the right

    2155
    hon. Gentleman who represents the Government this evening cannot suggest for a moment that justice has been meted out to the Special Areas.
    I asked a question of the right hon. Gentleman last week as to the number of new industries that have been started in Durham and Northumberland since 1931. His figures go two years beyond the 1934 period, the year when they had the last survey, and I am told that since 1931 new industries started in those counties have only found work for just over 3,000 people. As one who is interested in a Special Area, as one who knows somewhat the difficulties under which our people are living, I ask the President of the Board of Trade what he is prepared to do, or to advise the Government to do, to help those people who are not in a position to help themselves. In the past, by hard work and close application, we have helped to make this nation what it is to-day. By hard toil we have proved that we could turn out just as good a commodity and just as much per man-shift in the North-Eastern area as in any other part of the British Isles. If that is so, and if we are going through Gethsemane and cannot lift ourselves on to a higher plane, surely I am not asking too much when I ask the Government to do what they can to implement the promises which they made at the last election and to see that something is done for our people.
    I am surprised at the attitude of the Government. Our people are suffering. We have the reflex upon the child life in our towns and in our Special Areas, and the future generation will not be what we would like it to be. We may boast about our position among the nations of the world, our position in the world of commerce and industry, but I venture to suggest that the most valuable asset that any nation can possess is a healthy, virile manhood and womanhood, and you cannot have that if you neglect the children. The children are being neglected, and they are not having the opportunity of life that ought to be theirs. We talk about Imperialism. We are told that we are sons and daughters of an Imperial race. Back up your Imperialistic ideas by meting out justice to your people and by seeing, as far as possible, that they have a decent and a better standard of life.
    8.53 p.m.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: If the Committee agree, I think we might dispose now of the question of Jarrow and then get on to other topics. The speech to which we have just listened comes with somewhat familiar tones to me, for I think I could almost imagine the sort of meetings that the hon. Gentleman addressed in my native county during the last election, and he certainly has the skill of putting a case before the Committee in moving language. I wonder if he will forgive me when I say that yesterday I met a deputation that carried me much more into the region of sentiment than even the discussion this afternoon. I have seldom if ever met a body of people who expressed their views with regard to their local problems, municipal, industrial, and social, with so much force and persuasive power as the deputation that saw me yesterday. I do not pretend for a moment that it is possible to provide a solution for the Jarrow problem. We can only take steps in the right direction, and we are bound to avoid raising any false hopes. Already that has been done in Jarrow more than once, and it has led to terrible disappointment, if not to actual harm. Let us face the facts as we find them, and before I sit down I want to say something of what ought to be done to elucidate the more obscure points. Let us think first of all of the personnel, the dramatis personae as it were, of this play. Naturally, the hon. Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson), with all her persuasive power, has been able to make a great impression on the public mind.
    I have noticed in the course of discussion the name of Sir Andrew Duncan has been used more than once. May I say without the least hesitation and without any qualification that Sir Andrew Duncan is one of the best public servants with whom I have had the pleasure of working? His work on the Electricity Board was of great value to this country. Since he has been in command of the Iron and Steel Federation he has done admirable work there, and certainly with neither a partial nor local affection, nor with the desire to make the Iron and Steel Federation dominate the other industries or those engaged in the industry. It is only fair that that should be said of Sir Andrew at once. He ought not be drawn into the controversy. I

    2157
    should like to point out, in order to clear the ground, that the Iron and Steel Federation is not an exclusive body. Indeed, one of the conditions that we laid down when we were discussing the matter of the Federation's existence was—and I am quoting from a letter from the British Iron and Steel Federation to the President of the Board of Trade on 31st March of this year—to provide for the entry of new concerns into the federation. Paragraph (c) of that letter reads:
    "To undertake that membership of affiliated associations shall be open to all firms who are eligible under their rules and willing to observe them."
    That really throws the federation open to any concern which may be founded anywhere in the country. The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Mr. Edwards), who knows more than most of us about the organisation of the steel trade, must know the value that attaches to a body of that kind for the better organisation of the industry. We were glad when we found that it was possible to draw into one body and under such a chairman these representatives of the steel industry. It has been suggested that if a new syndicate or a new company were to get to work at Jarrow, it would be crushed by the federation. I take it that anybody who had the enterprise to go to Jarrow to found works there, and to provide sufficient capital to get it going and to work during the early years of construction, would want to know first whether they were going to be crushed by the federation. They would turn to the White Paper with which the industry is familiar, and they would find they had the right to enter the federation on the same terms as anybody else. It cannot be brought as a charge against the federation that they can crush out a new applicant for entry into their organisation. That is an important point that ought to be borne in mind by anybody discussing this Jarrow question.
    I have received, directly or indirectly, a full set of all the communications that have passed and reports of all interviews that have taken place. I cannot say that I know everything that has been written about the expansion of the iron and steel trade in the north country, and Jarrow in particular. I have had to work on such material as was available to me, but I would like to point out that the whole position has been exhaustively reviewed
    2158
    again and again. After the Debate of a week or fortnight ago we had a new survey of the whole problem. There have been further discussions between Mr. Brassert, the expert consultant whose opinions on the iron and steel prospects of Jarrow have been quoted again and again, and a representative of the Consett Iron Company, which is the nearest iron and steel organisation to Jarrow. They had expressed their willingness to be associated with an enterprise at Jarrow if a sound economic scheme could be formulated. I do not take that as an improper condition. Nobody has any right to invite them into an enterprise which is not commercially sound, and it would be no good for Jarrow if they did. It would only mean in the course of time that we should have the story of the old Palmer's yard all over again. We must make sure that the concern is able to start on a commercial basis, and that is where Mr. Brassert came in.
    Let me inform the Committee that Mr. Brassert is not a great controversialist, and he does not want to be drawn into public controversy. I can understand that. He is a great authority on the planning of iron and steel works—no one better. He has been in full consultation with the representatives of this organisation. As a result of the recent discussions, yet another conference was held under the chairmanship of Sir Andrew Duncan at the offices of the Federation as recently as Saturday last, when Mr. Brassert and representatives of the Consett company were present. The possibility of securing a sound commercial basis for the erection of steel works at Jarrow was considered, and the following conclusions reached:
    "First, that an expansion equivalent in tonnage to that which is taking place on the North-East Coast and elsewhere to meet the national need for a substantial and immediate increase in the production of iron and steel could mot have been avoided."
    Let me point out the importance of that. We cannot afford to have our major industries short of supplies of iron and steel. One of the conditions we made throughout in the organisation of this industry through the Iron and Steel Federation was that they must keep the consumers of steel supplied with such steel as they required. It is, therefore, of great importance that that condition

    2159
    should be complied with. The pressure was at its height about 18 months ago. Immediately, the enterprising firms on the Tees set to work to extend their accommodation and their works. They have done so rapidly, and there is already a yield coming from those works. That is the first fact. Let us see how it goes on:
    "In view of that expansion, no economic programme of production with an assured market"—
    and let me point out that that is one of the essential elements, that there should be an assured market—
    "can now be found for a new steel works at Jarrow, nor could a new steel works at Jarrow have been ready in time to meet the present situation even if construction had been commenced over a year ago."
    This statement makes it clear that the Jarrow proposal must, unfortunately, in the opinion of those most nearly placed to it, and Mr. Brassert himself, be regarded as impracticable. The Committee will observe that both Mr. Brassert and the Consett Company agree that the expansion to the extent that has recently taken place on the North-East Coast could not have been avoided. He agrees that even if construction at Jarrow had commenced a year ago, new steelworks could not have been ready in time to meet the present situation. Mr. Brassert has expressed the opinion that if the clearing of the Jarrow site for the construction of works could have commenced in the summer of 1935, coke and pig iron would have been produced early in 1937, operations of the steelworks and rolling mills would have commenced in the summer of 1938, and full production would have been realised by the end of 1938. There would, therefore, have been left a considerable gap which would have placed penalties upon the users of steel which we wish to avoid if essential supplies are to be ample for internal demands. It is obvious from those dates that Jarrow could not in any case have met the present need. Therefore, we have one aspect of that problem which we must put on one side. I must at this point say how unfortunate I think it is that in some quarters there has been aroused an illfounded optimism regarding the possible success of steel works at Jarrow. I do not blame those who represent Jarrow. No one could
    2160
    have heard the deputation yesterday without being deeply moved.
    Mr. LAWSON: It was not the Jarrow people who were responsible for the optimism.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, I quite agree. It has come largely from outside. The Jarrow people have been face to face with stark reality now for some years. Let me go on with the narrative. In the reply I gave to the House last week I explained as clearly as I could the position of the Government with regard to the Jarrow scheme and the general question of the organisation of the iron and steel industry, and I think that nobody can object to that, because although we have a very clear responsibility, as the hon. Member just remarked, for the industry, we have also a responsibility for the whole of the industries which are dependent on iron and steel, and we must not do anything which would be likely to injure them. The. hon. Member for East Middlesbrough does not want anything done at Jarrow which would hurt his constituents. It is my duty to see that there is no displacement of labour or no slowing up of work among any of the steel-using organisations. I am bound to keep that in mind, as well as the parlous state of Jarrow. I should like to say that the best I can urge is the following up of such suggestions as we heard to-night with regard to hydrogenation and other problems, and I can assure this Committee that we at the Board of Trade will do everything we can to push forward any proposals of that kind, but they must find an initiation somewhere, and I do trust that those who are feeling anxious about the position at Jarrow, especially those in the north country, will consider whether they could not reasonably put some of their capital, if they have any surplus capital in the north—I dare hardly suggest that they have after what we have heard—into enterprises such as that suggested to-night. [Interruption.] I am afraid it is only by trial, experiment and enterprise, one might almost say a spirit of adventure, that anything is likely to be done for that unfortunate area.
    With regard to the proposal for an inquiry, let me say this. I have told the House that I did not think it was necessary for the purpose of solving our

    2161
    Parliamentary problem that there should be an inquiry, but I freely admit that there is involved in this subject a number of questions which are social even more than they are industrial—naturally our responsibility extends over a very wide area, although that aspect is not strictly within the purview of the Board of Trade. The further investigation which has been made during the past few days, to which I have referred already, confirms me in the view that I expressed earlier. I think it is abundantly clear that it would be profitless at this stage merely to conduct an inquiry into the events which led to the present position on the North-East Coast. I feel, however, that there is ground for an examination of a wider character than one confined to the particular subject of Jarrow alone. The discussions on this question and certain other questions which have been engaging the attention of the Federation have made it clear that the industry must in the interests of the country, as well as their own, study with care the lines on which any further extension of plant should take place; that is to say, that the social implications of these proposals must be considered as well as the industrial. Such a study must necessarily take into account other aspects of the industry, the conditions under which it is operating now and will be operating in the future.
    We have asked the Import Duties Advisory Committee to examine all the data now available and to report upon the present position of the industry and, in so far as is practicable, the general lines of its future development. As the House is aware, the Committee, since its inception in 1932, has been closely concerned from a number of points of view with the development and organisation of the iron and steel industry in this country, and it will therefore come to the present task armed, as my hon. Friend remarked, with a fund of knowledge regarding the structure and needs of the industry. I think it will be agreed that no more competent tribunal can be found for the present purpose. I am glad to add that Lord May and his colleagues are prepared to undertake the examination and to report to His Majesty's Government. This seems to me to be a business-like method of throwing light on one of the most complicated and
    2162
    painful questions with which the Government have to deal, but when all is said and done I must still admit that the social problem remains.
    Miss WILKINSON: May I ask a question about the inquiry? Do I understand that this will be a private inquiry among those in the trade itself, undertaken by the Import Duties Advisory Committee? Will it be possible for other bodies concerned with the social implications to lay evidence before the committee, or will it be confined purely to the business side?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The Import Duties Advisory Committee have had a good deal of experience, not exactly with problems of this kind but of inquiries somewhat of this nature, and I would rather leave it to them. They can call evidence from anybody they please, call any witnesses to give evidence, either in public or private, and if necessary they can get the advantage of information which perhaps some of the businesses would not care to broadcast for industrial reasons.
    Miss WILKINSON: But it would be competent to lay such evidence before the committee?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I think the committee would obviously be desirous of obtaining evidence of every kind covering that range of subjects.
    9.12 p.m.
    Mr. MATHERS: The matter which I have to raise is one apart from anything that has been under discussion this afternoon. I am raising a case which I consider to be, and have no hesitation in describing, as an undoubted case of the victimisation of a trade union branch secretary. The history of this case goes back to the time when I was in this House previously, representing the West Edinburgh constituency. I made application to the then Lord Advocate for Scotland for recognition of the trade union branch serving the men who were engaged in the service of the Northern Lights Commissioners, particularly on the steamship "Pharos." That was in March, 1930. After many arguments I was able to obtain the recognition of the union and was advised of that recognition in January, 1931, so that more than nine months were taken in establishing

    2163
    an ordinary principle which is prevalent throughout industry. But that recognition, I have to admit, was conceded with very great reluctance. There was a general atmosphere of antagonism to the idea of giving the recognition, and from the time that recognition was given the life of the branch secretary, a man for whom I have the highest regard, a man of very great attainments and of very good character, was made very difficult indeed in the work of serving his fellows as secretary of that trade union branch.
    I want to condense what I have to say into the smallest compass. If I quote from some of the reports which I have been given from time to time, and which I have gathered together, that will indicate the atmosphere in which he was placed. He says, for example, in one communication:
    "When the branch was first formed, I was warned by the captain that if I and the others who were active members were not very careful we would end by getting the sack from the service."
    Again, he says:
    "As the secretary of the branch from its inception, I was soon made aware of the fact that I was to be made the target for special attention from the administrative authorities. I was subjected to all the usual forms of misrepresentation, being called such names as 'agitator,' 'Bolshevik' and even 'anarchist,' to all of which I paid no attention, but kept on organising my fellow workmates until our branch was 100 per cent. representative of the men employed on the commissioners' vessels. I was, of course, very conscious that, in being so openly active, I was treading on very thin ice. That was borne out by a warning I received from one of the commissioners that my success in building up a strong organisation was being closely watched by some of the more influential members of the board, and that I would have to be careful."
    He goes on to say that he was very careful, but later he talks about the fact that he had been passed over for promotion. He was the only able seaman on board the "Pharos" and had so improved himself, so studied and so applied his intelligence, that he was in possession of a certificate of competence as mate of a home trade passenger ship. I have that certificate here for the Minister to see, if he wishes to do so. Following up the point about not being promoted, although others were being brought into the service as officers from outside the commissioners' service, he says:
    2164
    "As a matter of fact, I was plainly told by the captain of the vessel that had it not been for the active part I had taken in organising the men into a trade union I would certainly have been in an officer's position in the service. Meanwhile, we had reached the point where, after much delay and a considerable amount of pressure, we had got the commissioners to meet us in conference to discuss our grievances. I was elected to attend that conference and, in view of the fact that I had been in close touch with the whole position for several years, my presence was regarded as of great importance from the men's point of view. But I never got a chance to attend that conference. I was ordered to go into hospital a day or two before the date of the meeting, to undergo an operation to one of my knees, which had been bothering me for over a year."
    He had made several representations to those in charge of him about having this accident seen to, but no attention was paid until, without any application on his part, when the time came for him to meet the Commissioners and put forward the case of the men whom he represented, it was found convenient to put him out of the way by sending him to hospital to have this old accident attended to and the injury to his knee looked after.
    It was inevitable that, without the presence of the man who was the branch secretary and who was au fait with the whole of the case on behalf of the men, and who could put forward all their grievances in the proper way, the case would not be presented, although every effort was made to do so, in the most effective possible way. To make a long story short, the result of the first meeting was a complete rejection of all the points submitted. The trade union, the Transport and General Workers' Union, did not allow the matter to rest there. A national conference was called of all the men in the three services, Trinity House and the Irish and Scottish Board employés. A national demand was formulated and was put forward. This branch secretary attended a conference in London where the demand was formulated and he says, in a communication to me:
    "Shortly after my return from the London Conference I became aware that I was to be made the subject of special attention from the officer in charge of my department. I was ordered to remove my union badge from my uniform and warned not to use the notice board in the men's quarters for union meeting notices while, at the same time, there was introduced a particularly irritating type of discipline which was hardly distinguishable from that of the Army or Navy."

    2165
    Nobody is suggesting that there should not be discipline on a vessel of this kind, but it was brought to a very high pitch of the formality that is associated with very rigid discipline. He says that everything possible was done to emphasise the authority of those in charge. The reason it was being done was to break the spirit of the men and to prevent them from ventilating their very real grievances. However, under the leadership of this branch secretary, the branch "emained firm and the membership remained at 100 per cent.
    Then a chance was presented to those in charge. A notice was put up in the ship, not relating to union business but to something which the union had organised, a whist drive and dance in aid of a hospital. The result of the proceeds of the whist drive and dance was put up in the ship. Because of the notice that had been given to this branch secretary that he must not put up any notices on the ship's notice board, it was indicated to him that he had committed an act of insubordination in putting up this perfectly innocent notice. He was called before the captain and was told that he had violated a rule that had been laid down. He said he was not aware that that was a prohibited thing, but that if he had broken a rule he was willing to apologise for it. He did apologise, and looked upon the apology as closing the incident.
    Before he left the captain's presence on that occasion the chief officer of the vessel made a charge against him that he was responsible for breeding such a spirit among the men on the ship that he was damaging the service. Because he was absolutely innocent of anything of that kind, he quite rightly resented that insinuation, but he was not given an opportunity of discussing the matter. He was an able seaman, and the people to whom he was talking were officers, which made a very definite class distinction, apparently. In an endeavour to clear himself of the charge that had been made against him he took the only course that remained to him; he wrote to the officer who had made the charge and denied it, and asked for the charge to be substantiated or withdrawn. Immediately that letter was received this branch secretary was suspended from the service. He was
    2166
    told that he had committed an act of insubordination in daring to write to an officer. I want to explain to the Committee that the whole object in writing to this officer was in order to get an inquiry made into the charges that were being levelled against him. No inquiry was made. I am asking for that inquiry now.
    Later on he was brought before the secretary of the Commissioners in Edinburgh and an indication of the terrible crime that he had committed was given to him. He was told that he was dismissed the service. He made an attempt to explain his position. He asked that the full circumstances might be inquired into, but that request was completely ignored. The board secretary gave him no chance to state his side of the case, and said in so many words that he had complete faith in the reports of the officers, and it was clearly indicated to the man that he had no right to make any protest or dare to get an explanation of any statement which was made against him, although it was resulting in his dismissal from the service and the ending of his career, where he might have done exceedingly well in view of his qualifications. The secretary of the board, on the branch secretary endeavouring to get an opportunity of stating his case, said that it was not that the Commissioners questioned the truth of the statements he made in his letter, but that they took exception to his having the audacity to make any statements at all. Yet it was a letter couched in language to which no exception would be taken in the service in which I have spent my life, the railway service; but such is the discipline which is being imposed that the language in that letter, which I consider to have been absolutely justified in the circumstances, resulted in the dismissal of this man.
    It is evident to me that the sole reason for this piece of victimisation is the fact that, having been long accustomed to the very humble presentation of anything in the way of grievances, the commissioners and the officers on the ship resented the fact that they were not given such a good opportunity of merely evading the issue in respect of grievances. The branch secretary took care that grievances which he wished to put forward were put forward on paper, and that, it seems, is what was resented. Here we have an

    2167
    elementary right of a worker to organise, after it being agreed by those who have any authority which this House does hold over the commissioners that the union was given recognition. Objection to this recognition was expressed by victimising the people who were concerned and trying to break down the organisation. This man was dismissed last year. I have tried since I came back to the House to get the President of the Board of Trade to institute an inquiry. He has said that he has not sufficient jurisdiction over the commissioners to enable him to insist on an inquiry being made. He declares that the only aspect of the commissioners' work with which he has connection is that relating to finance. I want to relate this demand for an inquiry to the question of finance. This man has been dismissed the service. He was building up over many years of service the right to a pension. That right has gone by his dismissal, although it was a pension that was being paid for. In the service of the Northern Lights Commissioners wages are paid of 9s. 6d. a week less than the ordinary mercantile marine rate. That is to cover pensions, uniform, doctor and life assurance. This man has during the years of his service contributed a considerable amount in respect of pension, and some regard should be paid to that.
    If he cannot be allowed to have any pension it is competent for me to ask that an ex gratia payment should be made to this man in respect of the amount he paid towards a pension. It will be observed that I have not used his name. I have done that deliberately; I do not want him to be identified publicly. He is now in business for himself, and I do not want there to be any prejudice against him. In so far as the President of the Board of Trade has dealings with the Northern Lights Commissioners he should represent to them that this man even now is entitled to have the opportunity of meeting and refuting the indictment that was brought against him, an indictment the precise nature of which he has never been allowed to know. In asking that this inquiry should be held, I want to ask also to whom the Northern Lights Commissioners are responsible, because it seems that with a great public service of this kind, in which this House is interested, there should be some point where we can definitely challenge their
    2168
    actions, as I do in this matter. I could extend the statement I am making; I could prove the value of this man whom the Commissioners have allowed to go out of their service by showing how he has used his intelligence to prevent damage on the ship which has taken place since he left, because he was not there. Hundreds of pounds' worth of damage has taken place on the ship since this man was dismissed because, apparently, there was no one on the ship with the knowledge which he had of dealing with certain matters. I emphasise the claim and insist that an inquiry should still be made into the victimisation to which this man has been subjected.
    Mr. GALLACHER: And reinstatement.
    9.34 p.m.
    Miss HORSBRUGH: During the earlier part of this afternoon we heard a description of the deplorable state of South Wales, Jarrow and other parts of Durham. I want to put before the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Mines another area which, if steps are not taken, may be reduced to a like state. We all know in the distressed areas the tremendous difficulty of getting either new industries or getting back other industries. I want to speak of the jute trade, and especially as it affects the city of Dundee, although in neighbouring towns the desperate emergency has already been felt. The jute trade depends enormously on the policy of the Government. At one time the unemployment figure in that trade had risen to 49 or 50 per cent. It has now been reduced by half, being 24 per cent. The unemployment figure in the city of Dundee at the present time is 23.9 per cent. We have been moving in the right direction. The trade has been enormously helped by the trade agreements, especially those with Argentina and with Denmark and the other northern countries, but now it is facing a new emergency.
    There has come upon the workers in the jute trade a new terror that their work may be taken away, that the mills and factories may be closed down, and that the area may become an absolutely derelict area. This has come about as a result of the new policy of the Jute Mills Association in India. During the last few years we have watched the great in-

    2169
    crease in the imports of manufactured jute goods from India. The policy of restriction which was undertaken there has failed, and this year we have seen the last of the sealed looms unsealed and the hours of work increased. It has been calculated that, if the hours of work are increased, as is now suggested, by 54 per cent., and all the looms are unsealed, the output of the Indian mills alone will be some 43 per cent. above the whole consumption of jute cloth in the world. Last year the manufactured imports from India were greater than they have ever been since 1920, and in the first three months of this year they were 125 per cent. above the imports of last year. If something is not done, and done quickly, the jute trade of the United Kingdom will cease to exist, and I need hardly remind the Committee that that trade is an absolute necessity for this country, especially if we were ever engaged in war. I think the facts about the new policy are already known to the Board of Trade, but I would urge that some scheme, even if it be only temporary, may be arranged in order to help the people before further schemes can be outlined. Those who come into touch with the people in the jute trade are continually being asked why it is that, if cotton textile goods going into India are taxed, jute textiles are allowed to come into this country free. Jute manufactured goods are taxed in every other country in the world—in the Irish Free State the duty is as much as 50 per cent.—because of this rush of imports from India, but this country alone has its market flooded with competition that it is impossible to stand up against.
    It has been suggested that some of these manufactured goods—a small percentage only—come into this country not fully manufactured, and requiring further work to be done upon them, but I suggest that if the whole of the work, and not a small part of it, were done here, the trade and industry of Dundee would be much improved and its unemployment figure would go down. It has already been reduced to 24 per cent., but there are many people working only four days a week who are not included in the unemployment figure. One large industry outside Dundee is closing down, and many other manufacturers are carrying on until the holidays, the week after next, when they may not be able to open their mills
    2170
    again. The position is desperate, and if something is not done, and done fairly soon, we shall not only have the unemployment figures that we had before, but the jute industry of the United Kingdom will be reduced to a state in which it cannot be carried on. Indeed, in many cases, even now, although it is being carried on, it is not paying. If this matter can be looked into, those engaged in the jute industry will be only too willing to put all the facts and figures before any Committee or adviser whom the Government may appoint. We in Dundee have been extremely grateful to the Government in the past. The trade agreements have helped us, because, as we believe, there has been a recognition of the particular difficulties of that area and of the fact that this one trade, which is vital to the country, is localised in that part of Scotland, which is the only part of the country where it is carried on.
    There is another matter to which I desire to call the attention of the Board of Trade. I have already taken it up with them, but I desire to urge that their investigations into it should be accelerated. I refer to the closing of the Board of Trade surveyor's office in Dundee, I think in 1931, when the shipbuilding trade was at its worst. I was told then, and again in 1932 or 1933, that, should the shipbuilding industry improve, the surveyor's office would be opened again. The shipbuilding industry has greatly improved, but in Dundee it is suffering from the fact that the expenses of the surveyor have to be paid, and the surveyor has to travel from Edinburgh to Dundee, which of late he has had to do, owing to the fact that there is more work in the yards, every day in the week. The shipbuilding industries in Leith and Aberdeen do not suffer in this way, because the surveyor's offices there have been kept open even during the time of depression. I would ask that further inquiries be made as to whether the office in Dundee can be reopened, so that the shipbuilding industry there, which is now much more prosperous than it has been for many years, may not have to bear this burden which the industry in other parts of the country has not to bear.
    9.42 p.m.
    Mr. GRANVILLE GIBSON: The President of the Board of Trade to-day has given us a hopeful statement as to the

    2171
    present condition of the trade of this country, and, in view of that statement, I was rather interested to hear the remarks of two hon. Members, from Middlesbrough and Durham respectively. The former said that we see towns occupied again, while the latter said he thought, when he listened to the President of the Board of Trade telling us how enormously the country had progressed during the last two or three years, that Durham County could not be a part of the British Isles. While every Member of the House must be exceedingly sorry for the state of affairs in every depressed area, we must not overlook the fact that, taking the country as a whole, there has been an improvement little short of marvellous during the past few years. In the city of Bradford, which adjoins my division, 300 employers went into liquidation between 1920 and 1926, and I remember that in 1920–21 there were well over 20,000 unemployed there. To-day there are about 5,000 or 6,000. If anybody in the Bradford area is asked to be attributed this marvellous result, he will immediately say that it is the policy of the present Government. Hundreds of girls are working in the Bradford area to-day who have been brought there from Durham and the North-East Coast, and are finding regular employment because there is such a shortage of labour in the woollen industry in the West Riding.
    I was very sorry to notice the laughter and jeers of hon. and right hon. Members opposite when the President of the Board of Trade referred to the fact that employers were now making profits again, and that it appeared likely that. in the near future they would make more profits. It does not seem to me that it is a heinous offence on the part of any employer to make profits. He has the same right as any operative has to have a reward for his industry. [An HON. MEMBER: "When he gets it."] Certainly, and he is getting it to-day. With the exception of coal there is hardly an industry in the country which is not exceedingly prosperous, with wages higher than they have been.
    Mr. SILVERMAN: Would the hon. Member say that of the cotton industry?
    Mr. GIBSON: The President of the Board of Trade referred to the tremendous increase to the import of raw
    2172
    cotton during the past 12 months. That must mean that it is for manufactured goods.
    Mr. SILVERMAN: Is the hon. Member not aware of the census of wages taken both by the textile unions and textile employers in Lancashire, which shows how it is possible for perhaps 50 per cent. of the cotton operatives to work a 48-hour week and go home with less than 20s. wages?
    Mr. GIBSON: I do not personally know the circumstances of the cotton industry in Lancashire, but in the Yorkshire textile industry there is a greater degree of prosperity and more wages being paid than at any time in the past 12 years. There are more people employed and higher wages are being paid. It is all for the good of the country that even the employers now are starting to make profit. What would the Chancellor of the Exchequer do if his largest source of revenue, Income Tax and Supertax, were cut off? Is it not better for the country that we should have these profits, because whenever you have prosperity for the employers you have prosperity among the employed.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall) referred to the difficulties with which we are faced in our foreign trade, and particularly to the effect of subsidies. He mentioned that Germany was subsidising her exports and that we were being adversely affected in our trade with India. His Majesty's Government cannot possibly take any steps to interfere with what Germany or any other country does with regard to subsidies in respect of foreign trade with other countries, but we can do something with regard to subsidies on imports into this country. A firm in Lincoln recently tendered for an excavator. The price it quoted was about, £7,000. A German firm came on the scene and said they were determined to have the order at any price and quoted a price against which the English firm had not the slightest chance. The difference between the price that was obtained and the cost of manufacturing the excavator in Germany was made up by a subsidy.
    I was in Germany a little while ago and a manufacturer there informed me that in respect of all the goods that he sent to this country he received a sub-

    2173
    sidy of 25 per cent. Poland grants a cash subsidy of 20 per cent. on exports to all countries with which she has not got a trading agreement. That applies to cheap suits which come to this country made under conditions and hours of labour and wages which would not be tolerated for a moment here. We never hear a word of protest from the benches opposite against this kind of thing. I would ask the President of the Board of Trade to consider putting a stop to these subsidies, which are unfair competition. When the exchange was strongly in our favour a few years ago, Canada put on an anti-dumping duty, and it seems to me that there is no reason why we should not place duties on goods from any country equivalent to the subsidy that they afford to their exporters.
    I should have liked to have dealt with the question of Rumanian payments and the recent decision making it compulsory that all moneys in respect of Italian debts must be paid into the account of the Bank of England. That is a step in the right direction. I also congratulate the Board of Trade on its decision in respect of Spanish trade. I congratulate my right hon. Friend in having at his command a band of officers, with whom I come in contact on many occasions, who are exceedingly efficient. I feel that the policy of the Government during the past four years has rescued the country from terrible depression and placed it in a position of comparative prosperity.
    9.52 p.m.
    Mr. JAMES GRIFFITHS: I will resist the temptation to follow the hon. Member who has just spoken and will leave him to be replied to by my hon. Friend on the Front Bench. I will content myself with asking the President of the Board of Trade two or three pertinent questions. First of all, has the Government abandoned all hope of restoring our export trade? He indicated that the only prospect that he saw of improvement in the next 12 months or so was an improvement in the internal trade of the country itself. He held out no prospect of improvement for the export trade. The Secretary for Mines, while promising to do his best, had no offer of assistance of any kind for the coal export trade, and we are entitled
    2174
    to ask the Government whether the export trade of the country is being sacrificed for the sake of the tariff. If you claim that the tariff brings prosperity to some trades you cannot escape responsibility for the disaster that it is bringing to others.
    May I quote some figures in relation to the tinplate trade, the second largest industry in South Wales, the largest in my division, a trade which has found its home in South Wales for three generations, a trade which has been built up on exports from South Wales to every corner of the world? Since the adoption of the Government policy the export of tinplates has been reduced by 27 per cent. The President of the Board of Trade will not deny that that reduction is due to the tariff policy. There is a large variety of reasons for the decline in the coal trade, but the decline in the export of tinplates is one that is peculiar to this country, because every other tinplate-producing country in the world has increased its exports. Great Britain is the only country whose exports are declining. Have the Government any policy to offer to these export districts and, if they have not, I want to urge, on behalf of those in this trade who have been thrown out of work, that they are entitled to compensation.
    The Debate that has taken place on Jarrow was a picture of the complete failure to plan industry. The hon. Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) was concerned with the problem of trying to attract a steelworks to Jarrow. The people in my division are faced with the problem of trying to prevent the trade being taken away from them. The President of the Board of Trade knows that I asked a question some time ago, and that I and my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) and the hon. Member for Swansea West (Mr. L. Jones) and others interested, formed part of a deputation to urge him to take steps that would prevent the removal of the firm of Richard Thomas and Company, who for two generations have manufactured tinplates in West Wales. They made their first home in the town of Llanelly, and they made their money there. Even fortunes have been made by that firm.
    Mr. GIBSON: And lost.
    Mr. GRIFFITHS: The money made by the firm at Llanelly was dissipated at Redbourne in Lincolnshire, and no one can deny the fact. Will the President of the Board of Trade take steps to induce this firm, which is now prosperous, as he would claim, in consequence of his policy, to recognise their social obligations? For 12 months there has been at Llanelly a fear that they might transfer their works from Llanelly, which has a population of 40,000 and is entirely dependent upon this one trade, to a village in Northamptonshire, which has a population of less than 5,000. It would be creating a new town in one part of the country and destroying another town in another part of the country, and we say that that sort of thing shows the complete failure of the existing system. Are the Government going to offer any kind of hope to the coal and tinplate export trades, and indeed to all the export trades of this country? Have they no tangible hope to offer? Will the President of the Board of Trade give some measure of encouragement to the people of Llanelly and West Wales in the divisions represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Gower and myself, that the influence of the Government will be thrown completely on the side of the prevention of the transference of that industry from South Wales, its natural home, to a village in Northamptonshire?
    9.59 p.m.
    Sir JOSEPH NALL: I do not propose to follow in detail the hon. Gentleman the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), except to say that it is deplorable in these days, when so many industrial areas of the country are in need of new industries and improvement in existing industries, that persuasion should have to be brought to bear on industrial organisations not to go to the virgin territory of the countryside and start industries which already exist in the larger towns. I want to raise an issue which, extraordinary though it may seem, has not been mentioned in this Debate on the Board of Trade Vote. I will come to it by first of all saying to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade how very much we appreciate in Lancashire, in connection with the export industry, the announcement made in recent weeks that two special commissioners have been appointed in his De-
    2176
    partment, Sir Charles Innes, and Sir Frederick Whyte, for the special purpose of looking after the export trade. I hope that indicates that the Department will also, more vigorously than has been the case in the past, go into the matter of improving the existing trade agreements and effecting better conditions than already prevail in that respect. I say that because I think that it would be wholly wrong if we were to approach the question of the revision, renewal and prolongation of existing agreements on the basis that, being so good as they are, all we need bother about is to keep them going. I do not for a moment subscribe to that point of view.
    The trade agreements, as they exist, have admirably served the purpose for which they have been intended, but they ought to be regarded as a jumping-off ground for something better. I gather that there is a tendency in some quarters to say that any revision or improvement of these things can only come up for consideration and be given effect to as and when the existing agreements with particular countries run out. I hope that that will not be the point of view of my right hon. Friend. The fact that these agreements have so many months or a year or so to run ought not to be a reason for not effecting some improvement in the meantime. The best example of that is the action of Australia which, notwithstanding the earlier implementation of Ottawa, has lately greatly improved the facilities for textile exports from this country to that market as a result of a deputation sent out from Manchester, supported by action on the part of the Board of Trade at home. That is an indication that we need not wait for the date when any particular instrument or agreement runs out, and that we can here and there, by appropriate action, in the meantime effect interim improvements.
    On these matters it would seem that we should take a firmer stand in demanding from the country with which we negotiate better conditions for British exports. There is not time at my disposal to go into the matter round the globe as one would like. For instance, Denmark with her overwhelming production of agricultural products, is vitally concerned to maintain an entry into the market here. It ought to be made clear

    2177
    to Denmark that, if she wishes to maintain in this country anything like an appropriate share of our market for agricultural products, she must turn her back upon the development of a textile industry of her own. There is already some move in the direction of a textile industry in Denmark, and it should be made plain to Denmark that she cannot hope to have entry into our market here with agricultural products, if she, in turn, if to develop her own textile industry and so reduce the volume of our exports. [Interruption.] I see that hon. Members of the Labour party—I am always at a loss to understand their attitude towards some of these things—do not seem to support me in the claim for an expansion of our exports to Denmark. I do not know why they should desire an unnecessary increase in Danish exports to this country. This is a matter for negotiation and agreement, and it is reasonable for us to say to the Danes or to any other country, "If you want a share in our markets for your agricultural products, you must reciprocate by restricting your own textile or other industrial productions and be prepared to take a corresponding volume of the things that we produce." [Interruption.] An hon. Member persists in interrupting and I would only say to him that all I am anxious for is to create and maintain employment for our own people in this country, which the Labour party have been advocating this afternoon, but which, I am sorry to say, the hon. Member does not seem to support.
    One very important question which is much to the fore at the moment, in relation to the textile industry, is that of the Argentine. I hold no sort of common cause with those people who want to see the Argentine Agreement broken and to have no agreement in its place, nor do I join with those who oppose the proposals to make a levy on imported meat. I am certain that with the right and proper negotiation which my right hon. Friend's Department has in hand at the moment, the present Agreement with the Argentine can be improved from the point of view of the textile industry, that there is scope for a better share in the market of the Argentine for our textile exports, that the Argentine Government are quite willing to give us a fair show out there, and that that can be done
    2178
    without in any way contravening the efforts that are being made to improve our own agricultural position. There could be nothing worse in the controversy that rages around these things than to suppose that our textile export interests are opposed to the agricultural interests of this country. What we want is a reasonable balance between the two. In the case of the Argentine I urge my right hon. Friend not to listen to the advocates of no agreement, but to insist on an improvement of the present Agreement, to the advantage of both countries.
    There is another matter, which has not been raised in Debate, on which I cannot dwell in detail. I hope that as far as it lies within the province of the Board of Trade they will exert their influence with other Departments of State in seeing that those parts of the county of Lancashire which compare in depression with the so-called depressed areas are given a reasonable opportunity in regard to new industry, and particularly in the production of munitions. We have in Lancashire an Industrial Development Council which is striving, I believe successfully, to keep an impartial and fair view of the requirements of the different parts of the county, and if the Departments of State will consult with that Development Council in their requirements for new production, they can be assured not only that their requirements will be met but that their orders will be placed in those parts of the county where they will be most welcome. I mention that because while the Defence Departments, the Army, the Navy and the Air are in touch with that Council at the present time, and a very welcome announcement has been made that certain gas mask production is to be located in our area, apparently there has been no consultation between the Home Office and the Development Council. As far as the Board of Trade have any influence in regard to these things I urge that they should take note of the mass of information which has been collected by the Industrial Development Council in Lancashire, and that they should consult with that body and make use of its services. For the rest, I hope that my right hon. Friend will accept from me on behalf of other hon. Members our appreciation of the new move in the appointment of trade commissioners, and

    2179
    our desire that an improvement of the various trade agreements should be expedited, and not be delayed until they are due for cancellation.
    10.10 p.m.
    Mr. SHINWELL: The hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Gibson) will forgive me if I do not reply to him except to say that when there is improvement manifested in certain industries the Government and Government supporters claim the credit, whereas when there is exceptional distress arising from industrial location, in South Wales and elsewhere, the Government and their supporters disclaim all responsibility. When the President of the Board of Trade delivered his glowing oration this afternoon on the country's prosperity, I failed to reconcile it with the forthcoming discussion on the Unemployment Assistance Regulations. Prosperity and the means test are incompatible. Undoubtedly there is prosperity in the country, and no one would seek to deny it, but prosperity is neither universal nor widespread in its scope. There is, as has been revealed in speeches in the Committee this afternoon, endorsed by the right hon. Gentleman and by the Secretary for Mines, deep-seated poverty and distress, nor can the Committee forget that in spite of the efforts of the Government there is still a vast amount of unemployment in the country for which the Government have apparently no remedy whatever.
    The right hon. Gentleman in his speech seemed to ignore entirely the effect of the Government's arms programme on the industries of the country, nor did he seem to appreciate that when that arms programme has come to its conclusion we shall be confronted with another industrial slump, probably with an internal economic collapse, for which the Government have no plans. Therefore, for the right hon. Gentleman to speak in such glowing phrases of prosperity and at the same time to claim credit for his Government in that regard, is completely to ignore and set aside undeniable and inescapable facts, many of which were presented in the Debate to-day. How dare the right hon. Gentleman speak of prosperity in face of what is happening in South Wales? The facts were admitted by the Secretary for Mines, in that most melancholy and unhappy speech. How
    2180
    dare the right hon. Gentleman speak of prosperity in face of what he himself has conceded in relation to Jarrow and its prospects? By what right does the right hon. Gentleman or his friends speak of prosperity, of industrial improvement and the like, and in such glowing terms, in face of the facts revealed in relation to Cumberland, Lanarkshire and in the cotton areas, to which he made reference in the Debate? There is prosperity, large blocks of prosperity, but it is confined to a comparatively small section of the population, unless the right hon. Gentleman means by prosperity that some millions of workers are fortunate enough to be in employment with such wages as they receive. If that is the right hon. Gentleman's conception of prosperity it is not ours.
    The discussion has revealed what might be described as the Argentine dilemma, to which I should like to make a brief reference. There has been a demand from hon. Members opposite for a revision of the Argentine Agreement. The right hon. Gentleman in reply to a question yesterday indicated that the term of notice suspending the agreement had now been reduced and that he had in view almost complete revision. I warn him, if I may with the utmost respect, to be very careful indeed—if he is seeking to safeguard the interests of British trade—not to pay too much heed to some of the interests on his own side of the House. Some of them are seeking to exclude goods, agricultural and otherwise, which have been imported into this country from the Argentine. They seek not to arrest or to stabilise that process but to extend it. Fewer goods must come into this country from the Argentine. Yet at the same time demands are being made, as we have heard from hon. Members opposite and in the City of London, that the Argentine public utility undertakings, particularly the Argentine railways, must be made to pay their just and lawful debts to British investors. If investors want a return they must not arrest Argentine trade, but seek to expand it. I ask the question: Who is to win in this struggle? Is it to he the City of London or the agricultural interests? I invite hon. Members opposite to make up their minds.
    It is significant that in this Debate we have had very little of the old-time

    2181
    fiscal controversy. The glory of the Liberal party appears to have disappeared—just a brief reference, reluctantly and diffidently expressed, as to whether trade agreements are satisfactory or not. Is that Free Trade propaganda? Is that the spirit of the Liberal party? Do they believe in the Government's tariff policy? We on this side do not believe in the Government's tariff policy as a means of improving British trade prospects, except temporarily. Of course, you can always apply an artificial stimulus to industry, or provide the breath of life for a new industry. It is a kind of dope, but the more dope you give these industries the more they ask for. The speeches of the hon. Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) and the hon. Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) show that they are not content. The hon. Member for Dundee made a speech last week extolling the Government's virtues, declared that unemployment was diminishing, and yet she comes and asks for protection for the jute industry.
    Miss HORSBRUGH: If my hon. Friend had heard my speech, he would know that I said they had reduced unemployment in the jute industry by a half. I said I was grateful for that.
    Mr. SHINWELL: If the Government's policy has reduced unemployment in the jute industry by a half, why ask for protection for the jute industry?
    Miss HORSBRUGH: To get the other half back to work.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Let it be duly noted that the hon. Lady wants an improvement in the Dundee jute industry at the expense of the Empire. It is a question of shutting out goods from India. Indeed, there have been demands, expressed by no means diffidently or with reserve, that we should exclude, in part at least, goods coming from other Dominions. Has not reference already been made in the House to the deplorable and pernicious effect of imports from the Dominions? Has not a demand been made for the revision of the Ottawa Agreements? Has not the right hon. Gentleman been adjured to be prepared for the revision of those agreements in 1937? What does that portend? The fact of the matter is that the Protectionists are never satisfied. They cannot be. It is inevitable that when once you get on to the slippery slope of Protection, you go
    2182
    down and down. Tariffs are now on the Statute Book. They are an accomplished fact. Once a tariff is on, it is very difficult to remove it, and that is one of its disadvantages. It sometimes happens that when an industry has had the benefit of Protection for a while, and no longer needs that artificial stimulant, it hates to give it up; it holds on to Protection like grim death because it is afraid that if the prop is removed something serious will occur. That is the difficulty of the Protectionist policy. Not that I am going to make a song and dance about unrestricted Free Trade; I say frankly to the Committee that the day of unrestricted Free Trade has gone, and gone for ever. I can recall, as can all hon. Members, the days of unrestricted Free Trade, with booms and slumps, poverty and profits, and, of course, with unemployment. That is not the sort of policy in which we believe.
    At the same time it is desirable to remind the Government of the disadvantages of the Protectionist policy. What has been the effect of the Ottawa Agreements? That there has been some improvement I do not deny. From the very nature of the case, the Protectionist policy is bound to bring improvement to certain industries, at all events for a while; but let it be noted that as a result of the Ottawa Agreement—I will not deal in detail with their effects, but with a few instances only—the United States Government have already removed the gaps in the Fordney tariff against Australia, and the Japanese Government are purchasing less and less wool from Australia as a retaliatory measure because of the Ottawa Agreements. I would like to invite the attention of the Committee to a remarkable utterance, not by a Member from these benches, but by a most estimable gentleman in the eyes of hon. Members opposite. I refer to Dr. Earle Page, the Deputy Prime Minister of the Australian Commonwealth. He made a speech under the auspices of the Empire Parliamentary Association. The right hon. Gentleman was in the chair and must have heard every word of the speech in which it was stated:
    "A study of the trade of England and Australia will make you realise how necessary it is that there should be not merely an improvement in Empire trade but a restoration of international trade in your own interests."

    2183
    I hope the right hon. Gentleman has not forgotten that statement. Then the speaker went on to deal with the effects—the deplorable effects—of the Ottawa Agreement policy. He said—
    "If you look at the position of Australian trade with Britain you will find that for many years after the time of the depression what took place was this: We used to spend in Great Britain in purchasing goods every penny we received from the exports we sold to you"—
    Captain CROOKSHANK: From what is the hon. Gentleman quoting?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I am quoting from an Empire Parliamentary Association document.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: Is it not a document which is marked as not being for circulation?
    Mr. SHINWELL: Are we to understand that a document of this kind which is sent to hon. Members, not in confidence, is not to be quoted in the House of Commons?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I am asking the hon. Gentleman whether on the document there are not the words "Not for circulation." If so, it is obviously for the information of Members privately.
    Mr. SHINWELL: I will not quarrel with the hon. and gallant Gentleman on the point. If, as he says, and I have no means at the moment of confirming the statement, this document is for private circulation and private information alone, I shall set it aside, and I shall use the argument in vacuo, so to speak—at all events without reference to this document. The argument is this: Australia has met the dividends on British investments in Australia out of foreign trade balances. Australia has traded with Germany and has not had an adverse trade balance until last year, but has had favourable trade balances and out of the surplus has been able to meet her financial commitments to British investors. But that process has gone. There is now an adverse trade balance with Germany, attributable to the Ottawa policy. You cannot have an Ottawa policy without retaliation, and it is to that fact that the right hon. Gentleman must pay attention.
    2184
    Because of the inadequacy of the time available I depart from that very tempting aspect of the subject for the time being and come to the crux of the problem. It is clear that neither unrestricted Free Trade, nor a tariff policy on the lines of the Ottawa Agreements, or in any other fashion, can cure the ills to which reference has been made in this Debate. On that we challenge the Government. We heard the melancholy and doleful tale of the coal trade. But did the hon. and gallant Gentleman prescribe any remedy? He said that the Government was not to blame and that it was the result of economic depression, lowering of prices, falling exports and the like. But no remedy whatever is suggested. What a Government! What about shipping, with which the right hon. Gentleman is familiar? That is the last thing for the Government to talk about. Let it not be forgotten that because of the tariff policy of the Government, shipping suffered, and because it suffered the right hon. Gentleman and the Government came to the assistance of shipping with £2,000,000 last year, and £2,000,000 this year, and heaven knows what it will be in the future because subsidies for shipping are in the air.
    What about shipbuilding? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us where shipbuilding has benefited as a result of the tariff policy? He talked about the amount of work that was going to be provided for shipbuilding yards, but he did not give us the proportions of civil shipbuilding and Government shipbuilding intended for war purposes. The fact of the matter is that the shipbuilding yards are doing very well because of the Government's armament policy.
    I venture to come, without further ado, to the tendencies in our industrial situation as I see them. The right hon. Gentleman made a very valuable admission to-day, which I hope hon. Members in all quarters of the House noted. It arose out of the general controversy. He said he intended, through the medium of the Import Duties Advisory Committee, to demand something in the nature of an examination of the steel and iron trade and its implications, and in particular he said he would advise that committee to consider the social implications. That is a very valuable advance. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to apply the same principle and method in relation to

    2185
    rationalisation schemes as a whole. Let him apply that principle in Lancashire. Whenever there is a prospect of a mill being closed down, let him consider the social implications. Let the Secretary for Mines apply it to the mining industry. Let him demand that, before a mine is opened, the social implications should be considered, whether it is wise to open it, its relation to industry as a whole, its relation to other mining undertakings; and let him demand that before it is closed, if it has been opened, the social implications should be considered. That is rationalisation for social purposes. Therefore, I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman speak in that fashion this afternoon. Our contention is that rationalisation tendencies as they exist to-day are bound to produce unemployment, and I was about to ask, before the right hon. Gentleman made that admission, what the Government remedy was, so that I was very glad to have that observation from the right hon. Gentleman.
    Now I will speak of another tendency, equally irresistible, and that is State assistance. Is it not remarkable that day after day appeals come from hon. Members supporting the Government for assistance for this industry, that industry, and the other? The fact is that capitalist industry is no longer capable of standing on its own legs. Regulation, reorganisation, inspired by Governmental legislation and financial assistance, and more often than not it is financial assistance without any regulation or Government control—that tendency, I say, is irresistible and welcome to hon. Members on this side. It is a process of evolution, but clearly the end is inevitable. State assistance, State organisation, State inspiration, and the like inevitably mean State control, and effective State control implies State ownership. That is where we are leading, and the only question is whether we can lead you in that direction more rapidly than you are disposed to go.
    I come now to the final observation which I wish to make. Something has been said this afternoon about planning. I know that hon. Members opposite are very critical of observations of that kind. They dislike the phrase, and I share their dislike. The phrase is of little value unless it conveys something practical, something which can be applied. What
    2186
    is meant by economic planning? I am not speaking in terms of the policy laid down by hon. Members on this side, which means State ownership in industry. I rule that out for the time being. It will come, but for the moment it is not here, and we have to work within the four corners of the capitalist system. As I understand it, planning implies in existing circumstances an industrial survey, and, if you like, a social survey. For the moment, however, I content myself with the industrial aspects. Already a beginning has been made through the Import Duties Advisory Committee, as the right hon. Gentleman revealed this evening. There should be an industrial survey, an examination of the nation's resources to begin with, and then an examination of the nation's needs, followed by an examination of their proper relations. That is the first step in economic planning—it is the framework in which it should be carried out.
    Then there should be the removal of the gap between production and consumption, to which reference has been made over and over again. When are the Government going to move in the desirable direction of increasing purchasing power? I would remind the Government that there is valuable evidence contained in a Government document—which this time is not confidential. It is a document, which I got from the Library with the, assistance of the Librarian, relating to the economic conditions of the Argentine Republic. It is a report by the Commercial Councillor of His Majesty's Embassy in Buenos Ayres. He speaks of the need for expansion to enable the Argentine to meet its financial obligations to the British investor, and he says:
    "Some idea of what the satisfaction of this insufficiency"—
    he is referring to the insufficiency of food in Great Britain among the working-class population—
    "would mean to agriculture in the Argentine can be formed from an estimate which has been made that if every family in the United Kingdom spent as much on food as those having a weekly income of 25s. per head, the total expenditure on that item would be increased by £200,000,000 sterling annually."
    That is one of the means of escaping from the dilemma, that is, to increase purchasing power and to give a much needed stimulus to trade. One proceeds

    2187
    naturally in the inevitable direction that if you are to increase purchasing power you must control prices. You must bridge the gap between wholesale and retail prices. If, therefore, we are asked for our version of what economic planning implies, I would venture these observations. I repeat that we must accept as an accomplished fact the tariff policy. If a Labour Government came in, they could not remove tariffs as a whole; it must be a gradual process. We must consider world economic implications. I recognise that. [Laughter.] Obviously, if the Government had recognised and considered world economic implications, they would not have done such foolish things as they have. It is part of economic planning to consider the effect of your policy on the world, and the reactions and repercussions of your policy. In spite of the glowing statements and the eloquent periods of the right hon. Gentleman, his complacency and self-assurance, his patting himself on the back and being so happy about it all, we are far from being contented. We have in our minds, much as we deplore it, the spectacle of unhappy and discontented people and impoverished homes in many parts of the land. They are unhappy and discontented people who are the victims of an economic system which the right hon. Gentleman upholds. A change is bound to come, and nothing the right hon. Gentleman can do or say or that his supporters can do or say can prevent it taking place in due course.
    10.41 p.m.
    Lieut.-Colonel C. KERR: I followed with great interest the forcible speech of the hon. Member for Seaham Harbour (Mr. Shinwell). He made one or two admissions at the end of his speech which I think are of the greatest importance. I should have liked to interrupt him, but I knew he would not wish to be interrupted. I wish to say only a very few words. If I had not thought the hon. Member did not wish to be interrupted I should have asked him whether, if the Opposition were to come into power, they would immediately remove all tariffs and open the ports; but I was glad to find that before he had ended his speech he did answer the question I had proposed to put to him by saying that he would not, under world conditions as
    2188
    they are, do such a foolish thing. Hon. Members opposite, my erstwhile comrades, are smiling. They are still diehard Free Traders. I put the same question to them. Would they, if they occupied these benches to-morrow, remove all tariffs and put on Free Trade as we understand it? There is no answer. Of course they would not. They know it would be quite impossible.
    I wish to get back for one moment to my own constituency. The senior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh) mentioned the dreadful condition which is now about to come there and which has come to the jute industry in my own division. In one of my boroughs the best factory has had to shut down because of the imports of jute materials into this country. An hon. Member opposite was rather scathing in his remarks about the senior Member for Dundee in regard to her wish to improve the industry which is established in both our constituencies. He knows as well as I know that the reason why we are in such distress in the jute industry—and I should not have thought he would have approved of it—is that the goods which are being imported into this country to-day and which are wrecking the jute industry are produced uneconomically at wages of which he cannot approve. In view of that surely he cannot be so scathing, and rather sneering, at those who are interested in jute trying to get better terms for the industry.
    The position is that the whole of the jute imported into this country from India is only, I understand, at most 4 per cent. of the jute production of India. India imposes a duty on cotton goods going from this country into India. Cannot our own jute industry be allowed to manufacture what it can sell here? If not, a very slight duty on what is coming from India would make all the difference to the question of whether that industry is to shut down, because that is what it means. I have in my Division, in Forfar, one factory which is shut down. It is the finest factory in the country. As regards machinery it is bang up-to-date, and immense sums of money have been sunk in it. Now, 750 people have been shut out of work. That may not seem a very big number to those who deal with thousands of people, but it means that that borough has become a

    2189
    special area. I urge the Minister to consider this matter. A very little help to the jute industry would put it on its legs again, and I trust he will do his best to see what he can do. If we are suffering from duties put upon our imports to India, although they do give us a Preference, surely a little tit-for-tat which would save the jute industry, is an admissible thing to ask for.
    10.46 p.m.
    Sir EDWARD CAMPBELL: The hon. Member who spoke for the Opposition seemed to think that by shouting he was going to get everybody to imagine, not only in this Committee but in the country, that the Protection policy of the Government has not been successful. He has only to remember the position in which we were, some four or five years ago, when his party, funking the issue that was before the country at the time, ran away from their duty, and left the National Government to take over a ship which was nearly sunk. [An Horn. MEMBER: "Who was the captain of it!"] [Laughter.] You may laugh to-day, but for four years you were out of the House and not laughing at all. These benches and the majority of those benches were filled with Conservative Members. You Labour Members had failed to do your duty and were taking a very long holiday. During that time, you have seen the House of Commons—
    The CHAIRMAN (Sir Dennis Herbert): I would remind the hon. Gentleman that his remarks are supposed to be addressed to the Chair.
    Sir E. CAMPBELL: I apologise for addressing the hon. Gentleman opposite instead of yourself. In any case, Sir Dennis, I am sure that you recollect that for four years the Government have carried on step by step, and have built up a Protection policy which has put hundreds of men into employment. [An HON. MEMBER: "Subsidies."] Yes, we have employed subsidies. Perhaps I may be allowed to give an example of the subsidy. Last year—[Interruption]—hon. Gentlemen talk very often and I talk very seldom—I was in New Zealand. I had gone from Australia to New Zealand in a ship subsidised by an American company.
    Mr. WHITELEY: On a point of Order. Are we not to have a reply from the Minister to the speech which has been made from this bench?
    The CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of Order.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Further to that point of Order. I am speaking not for myself but for hon. Members behind me when I point out that my hon. Friends have put questions to the right hon. Gentleman which deserve a considered answer.
    The CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of Order. An hon. Member is at the moment in possession of the Floor.
    Sir E. CAMPBELL: I am glad that I was doing so well that the Opposition did not like it. I did not think that my speech was having such an effect upon them that they would prefer to have a Front Bencher rather than myself. I was saying that I travelled from Australia to New Zealand, and was compelled to travel in an American subsidised steamer. It is impossible at present for the Australian and New Zealand Governments to supply ships on these routes owing to the tremendous subsidy to shipping which is paid by America. They told me that these steamers lose no less than £30,000 on each voyage. The money not not allotted to the shipping companies, but is part of the Navy vote in America and is allotted to each steamer.
    Mr. J. GRIFFITHS: Is it the intention of the Minister to reply?
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member should not raise a point of Order on which I have already given a ruling.
    Sir E. CAMPBELL: When foreign countries subsidise their merchant ships it is necessary that we should do the same thing. The policy which this country has adopted has been shown to have been beneficial to all people in this country. The Opposition should be really more keen on protection than we are. Are they not eager to protect the labour of people in their trade unions? That is what our policy is intended to do. Instead of subsidised goods made in foreign countries by cheap labour being imported here, it is much better that those goods should be produced by British labour, and so more money be put into the

    2191
    pockets of the working people of this country. I have lived abroad for a great number of years and I know that this is the one country in the world where labour is protected, and where men get decent wages. The Government was accused by the hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Opposition Bench of having a wrong policy, but the policy which this Government has brought in is appreciated by everybody in the country. If our Protection policy is not of benefit why should so many foreign countries seek to make arrangements with us in order that they shall be able to do business with England.
    When we lived under so-called Free Trade we were in the hands of the foreigner. When we ship goods to a foreign country, they have to pay a duty, but when the foreigner ships goods to our country they came in free of duty. Since the adoption of the policy of this Government, the contrary has happened, and foreign countries which formerly dumped goods here are now coming hat in hand to the President of the Board of Trade and asking him whether he will make some arrangement so that they can carry on the trade which they used to carry on before. If hon. and right hon. Members of the Opposition do not believe that to be true, they have not studied the arrangements which we have made, and which have given us a great chance of bargaining with foreign countries.
    I have always realised that such questions as commerce and trading generally are not very well understood by Members of the Opposition—[An HON. MEMBER: "Where did you learn?"] I have been through the mill. I dare say I have had as much commercial training
    as anybody in this House, and any success I have gained has been gained through hard work. I think it is a great pity when we hear speeches from the Opposition Benches like that of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. One would imagine that he did not realise the facts of the case, but thought that, as long as he was speaking to the Members of his party in this House, he was speaking to the whole world. I am sure, however, that people outside this House will confirm my statement that the present Government have done a great deal of good for the country, and will realise that they not only have done and are doing it, but will continue to do it. The hon. Gentleman said that they were gradually working up to Socialism. That may be, but I can assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that it will be a jolly long time before they accept Socialism. The hon. Gentleman has stated his own opinion, but in my view it is a wrong opinion.
    Mr. R. C. MORRISON: I sent to the right hon. Gentleman's Department notice of the two questions that I put to him. Would he have the courtesy to answer them?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have already addressed the Committee twice, and my hon. and gallant Friend also has made a long speech. I did not understand that there was any necessity for any further reply.
    Mr. KELLY: Your Whip said that you would give it.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: In the circumstances, I am afraid there is not time.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 208; Noes, 127.

    Division No. 289.]

    AYES.

    [11.0 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

    Birchall, Sir J. D.

    Channon, H.

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Blindell, Sir J.

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Chorlton, A. E. L.

    Albery, Sir I. J.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Clarry, Sir Reginald

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

    Boulton, W. W.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Brass, Sir W.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Apsley, Lord

    Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

    Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

    Aske, Sir R. W.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'rS.G'gs)

    Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

    Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Craddock, Sir R. H.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Bull, B. B.

    Craven-Ellis. W.

    Balfour, Capt. H. H.(Isle of Thanet)

    Burghley, Lord

    Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page

    Balniel, Lord

    Butler, R. A.

    Crooke, J. S.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

    Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Cross, R. H.

    Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

    Cary, R. A.

    Crowder, J. F. E.

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Cruddas, Col. B.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C.

    James, Wing-Commander A. W.

    Rankin, R.

    Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

    Jarvis, Sir J. J.

    Rayner, Major R. H.

    Dawson, Sir P.

    Jones, H. Haydn (Merloneth)

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    De Chair, S. S.

    Jones, L. (Swansea, W.)

    Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Keeling, E. H.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Denville, Alfred

    Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'nderry)

    Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

    Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

    Drewe, C.

    Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.

    Rowlands, G.

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    Latham, Sir P.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

    Dugdale, Major T. L.

    Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

    Runciman. Rt. Hon. W.

    Duncan, J. A. L.

    Leckie, J. A.

    Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)

    Eastwood, J. F.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

    Salmon, Sir I.

    Eckersley, P. T.

    Liddall, W. S.

    Salt, E. W.

    Edmondson, Major Sir J.

    Lindsay, K. M.

    Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Little, Sir E. Graham-

    Sanderson, Sir F. B.

    Emery, J. F.

    Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

    Scott, Lord William

    Emmott, C. E. G. C.

    Lloyd, G. W.

    Selley, H. R.

    Entwistle, C. F.

    Loftus, P. C.

    Shakespeare, G. H.

    Errington, E.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

    Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)

    M'Connell, Sir J.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Flides, Sir H.

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

    Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

    McKie, J. H.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

    Fremantle, Sir F. E.

    Maclay, Hon. J. P.

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Furness, S. N.

    Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

    Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    Magnay, T.

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Ganzonl, Sir J.

    Maitland, A.

    Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

    Gibson, C. G.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

    Giedhill, G.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Spender-Clay, Lt.-Cl. Rt. Hn. H. H.

    Gluckstein, L. H.

    Markham, S. F.

    Spens, W. P.

    Goldie, N. B.

    Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

    Goodman, Col. A. W.

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Storey, S.

    Gower, Sir R. V.

    Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

    Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

    Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

    Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

    Tate, Mavis C.

    Guest, Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll.N.W.)

    Moreing, A. C.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Gunston, Capt. D. W.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

    Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

    Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

    Touche, G. C.

    Hannah. I. C.

    Munro, P.

    Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Nall, Sir J.

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

    O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    Hepworth, J.

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Wayland, Sir W. A.

    Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

    Palmer, G. E. H.

    Wedderburn, H. J. S.

    Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

    Penny, Sir G.

    Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Petherick, M.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

    Howitt, Dr. A. B.

    Plugge, L. F.

    Wragg, H.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

    Procter, Major H. A.

    Hulbert, N. J.

    Raikes, H. V. A. M.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward

    Hunter, T.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    and Mr. James Stuart.

    Jackson, Sir H.

    Ramsden, Sir E.

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

    Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

    John, W.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

    Adamson, W. M.

    Foot, D. M.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

    Frankel, D.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Ammon, C. G.

    Gallacher, W.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Gardner, B. W.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Garro Jones, G. M.

    Lathan, G.

    Banfield, J. W.

    Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

    Lawson, J. J.

    Barnes, A. J.

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Leach, W.

    Batey, J.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Lee, F.

    Benson, G.

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Leonard, W.

    Broad, F. A.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    Leslie, J. R.

    Bromfield, W.

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Lunn, W.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Cape, T.

    Groves, T. E.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Cassells, T.

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    MacLaren, A.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Maclean, N.

    Chater, D.

    Hardie, G. D.

    Mander, G. le M.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Marklew, E.

    Cocks, F. S.

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Marshall, F.

    Dagger, G.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Messer, F.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Milner. Major J.

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

    Dobbie, W.

    Hollins, A.

    Morrison. R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Ede, J. C.

    Hopkin, D.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    Jagger, J.

    Noel-Baker, P. J.

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Oliver, G. H.

    2194

    2195

    Paling, W.

    Shinwell, E.

    Viant, S. P.

    Parker, J.

    Short, A.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Parkinson, J. A.

    Silkin, L.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Silverman, S. S.

    Welsh, J. C.

    Potts, J.

    Simpson, F. B.

    Westwood, J.

    Price, M. P.

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

    Wilkinson, Ellen

    Pritt, D. N.

    Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

    Williams, D. (Swansea, E.)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Riley, B.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Williams, T. (Don Valley)

    Ritson, J.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Wilson, C. H. (Attercilffe)

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Rowson, G.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Seely, Sir H. M.

    Thurtle, E.

    Sexton, T. M.

    Tinker, J. J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    MERCANTILE MARINE SERVICES.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a sum, not exceeding £260,822, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, for the Salaries and Expenses of certain Services transferred from the Mercantile Marine Fund and other Services connected with the Mercantile Marine, including Services under the British Shipping (Assistance) Act, 1935, the Coastguard, General Register and Record Office of Shipping and Seamen and Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions."
    It being after Eleven of the Clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

    ADJOURNMENT.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Notice was given to the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs that we proposed to raise a matter on the Adjournment to-night, but I understand that through some inadvertence he has not found it possible to be present. Therefore, we do not propose to raise the matter.
    Adjourned accordingly at Twelve Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT (MRS. WOODROW).
  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT (MRS. WOODROW).
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (CIVIL SERVANTS).
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (CIVIL SERVANTS).
  SPECIAL AREAS (LOANS FOR INDUSTRIES).
  SPECIAL AREAS (LOANS FOR INDUSTRIES).
  MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
  MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
DEFENCE.
  SABOTAGE IN FACTORIES.
  SABOTAGE IN FACTORIES.
  WOMEN (INDUSTRIAL TRAINING).
  WOMEN (INDUSTRIAL TRAINING).
TRANSPORT.
  OMNIBUS SERVICE, GLASGOW DISTRICT.
  OMNIBUS SERVICE, GLASGOW DISTRICT.
  TRUNK ROADS (GRANTS).
  TRUNK ROADS (GRANTS).
  MAGISTRACY.
  MAGISTRACY.
  BEEF AND VEAL IMPORTS.
  BEEF AND VEAL IMPORTS.
  SCOTLAND (FARM WORKERS).
  SCOTLAND (FARM WORKERS).
  LAND REGISTRY.
  LAND REGISTRY.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  ASSISTANCE REGULATIONS.
  ASSISTANCE REGULATIONS.
  NEW INDUSTRIES (SPECIAL AREAS).
  NEW INDUSTRIES (SPECIAL AREAS).
  RENTS, COUNTY OF DURHAM.
  RENTS, COUNTY OF DURHAM.
  MEANS TEST.
  MEANS TEST.
  ALIEN IMMIGRANTS.
  ALIEN IMMIGRANTS.
  WEST AFRICA (DEATH SENTENCES).
  WEST AFRICA (DEATH SENTENCES).
  BASUTOLAND, BECHUANALAND AND SWAZILAND.
  BASUTOLAND, BECHUANALAND AND SWAZILAND.
  ROYAL DOCKYARDS (TRADE UNIONS).
  ROYAL DOCKYARDS (TRADE UNIONS).
AVIATION.
  NIGHT FLYING, AFRICAN ROUTE.
  NIGHT FLYING, AFRICAN ROUTE.
  GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.
  GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.
  EMPIRE SERVICE FLYING-BOAT TEST.
  EMPIRE SERVICE FLYING-BOAT TEST.
  CINEMAS (SAFETY REGULATIONS).
  CINEMAS (SAFETY REGULATIONS).
  PUBLIC MEETINGS (BREACHES OF PEACE).
  PUBLIC MEETINGS (BREACHES OF PEACE).
  NORTH CHINA (JAPANESE TROOPS).
  NORTH CHINA (JAPANESE TROOPS).
  ITALY AND ABYSSINIA.
  ITALY AND ABYSSINIA.
  TRAFALGAR SQUARE, LONDON.
  TRAFALGAR SQUARE, LONDON.
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, LORD STANMORE on the Woolsack.
PILOTAGE AUTHORITIES (LIMITATION OF LIABILITY) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

HYDROGEN CYANIDE (FUMIGATION) BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to regulate the fumigation of premises and articles with hydrogen cyanide, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (ESSEX) BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (NORTH HERTS JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LANCASTER) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (RAMSEY AND SAINT IVES JOINT WATER DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (TEES VALLEY WATER BOARD) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (RIPON) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).

COST OF BUREAUCRACY.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE LORD MOUNT TEMPLE had given Notice that he would move to resolve, That the cost of Bureaucracy, and the crushing and complicated burden of compiling returns and making out forms for departmental and local government purposes, has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished; and would also move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in rising to move the Resolution which stands in my name, I wish very respectfully to ask for the indulgence of the House if I use very copious notes, because it is almost impossible, unless you have the memory of a Bonar Law, to retain in one's head the figures, returns, extracts from documents, and papers which one is obliged to use if he is going to try to make a coherent picture of the abuses which he claims exist. Therefore may I ask for the indulgence of the House if I use notes very extensively as, thereby, I shall be able to make a far better case than if I spoke entirely extempore?
We all know, or should know, the book by the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Hewart, "The New Despotism," published some seven years ago. If your Lordships have not read it, you should read it, because it is a very fine exposition, describing how the bureaucracy entrenched in Whitehall had even then, seven years ago, usurped the functions and authority of the Government, and even those of the Justiciary. It is not my intention this afternoon—it would be outside the terms of the Resolution—to deal with that aspect of the bureaucratic system, but what I do propose to try to show, with your Lordships' patience and support, is that the system of bureaucracy has a cramping and crippling effect on individual enterprise, that it fetters freedom of action, that it subjects us to endless irritating restrictions and regulations, that it suffocates the business and trading community with showers of forms and documents, and, finally, that it is slow and cumbersome in action and financially wasteful and extravagant. It is strange in these days to think that
798
only a century ago Governments concerned themselves almost solely with taxation, defence, foreign affairs, and the maintenance of law and order at home. How different is the position to-day. There is hardly a department of human life and activity which is not the direct concern of one Government Department or another. Trade, industry, transport, the transmission of power, public health, education, insurance, pensions—all come within their purview and receive their unceasing attention.
This remarkable development of Government interest in the life and work of the nation has come principally since the War, and it is particularly noticeable in trade and industry. Within the past few years we have seen the introduction of marketing orders, tariffs and quotas, the establishment of boards for milk, pigs, potatoes, bacon, hops, herrings, meat, eggs and poultry, sugar and sugar beet, and still more, we are told, are coming for vegetables and even raspberries. It cannot be said, I think, de minimis non curat the bureaucracy. Nothing is too great, nothing is too small for the bureaucrat to deal with. One of our most distinguished civil servants, Sir Ernest Gowers, who once served as Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, lectured at the Sorbonne in Paris three years ago and commented on the flood of legislation which now passed through Parliament every year. He said—you will hardly believe it—that the Acts passed in 1933 formed a volume of rather more than 1,000 pages. But he added that the regulations made by the bureaucracy under powers conferred by these Acts filled another 2,000 pages. The subjects covered were of the widest variety. Any seeker after such knowledge would find in them advice on the cultivation of gooseberries in Scotland and about the strange mysteries of the sack and bag trade.
Acts covering 1,000 pages, and regulations covering twice as many—3,000 pages in all—were devoted to the output of legislation for one year alone three years ago. It is surely staggering. Can all those regulations and Acts be really necessary? Our fathers and grandfathers in the Victorian era got on perfectly well without all these regulations and irritating formalities. I admit that life is more complex now than it was

799
a few years ago. You cannot expect the same laissez faire. A little of something may be good, but too much is bad for the system and bad for this country. I would like your Lordships when you go home to consider whether 3,000 pages devoted simply to recounting what is in Acts and regulations arising from them are not symptoms of a country which is too complacent and a bureaucracy that is too meddlesome. It would indeed be interesting to know the cost of printing and publishing this type of literature. A catalogue of Government publications issued during April of this year ran to sixty pages. The Government are offering now for sale sixty pages of Acts, regulations and Government publications. Can that be necessary? Can that really be for the good of the nation? We can get some idea of the expenditure of the Stationery Office by comparing the cost, £1,200,000 in 1914 with £2,200,000 in 1935—that is to say, the output of legislation appears to be, if you take the cost of publishing it to this country and the world as, a criterion, double what it was in 1914.
The regulations and restrictions imposed on tradesmen and the multitude of forms and documents which they have to fill up and return to one authority or another have been the subject of continued protests from representatives of trade organisations. Mr. Gilbert Shepherd, then President of the National Chamber of Trade, speaking at the annual meeting of the Chamber last year, said:
"The multiplicity of these departmental regulations is so serious that it is becoming more and more difficult for the mere layman to avoid, quite unconsciously, committing technical offences. In fact, it will soon be impossible for the man-in-the-street to get through any week of his life without having broken some regulation or other. My main claim on behalf of retail distribution is for freedom from the shackles of unnecessary control and restriction."
That is the opinion of the President of the National Chamber of Trade, a very important person occupying a lofty position. Then let us take what Sir Ernest Benn, an expert in his own walk of life, said quite recently. Sir Ernest Benn, describing the rules and regulations to which the ordinary tradesman has to submit, said:
"His scales, his hours, his wages, his premises are classified, inspected, tabulated and certified; his cash and prices recorded, regulated and taxed to such an extent that
800
much more of his brain power has to be applied to officials than he can spare for his customers."
In short, individual effort and enterprise are becoming more and more circumscribed by irritating restrictions and bureaucratic influence.
May I take another aspect of this question, the local government aspect? With your Lordships' permission, I will now proceed to describe the waste of effort and of public money that results from the unnecessary duplication by Whitehall of the machinery of local government in the counties and the chaos resulting from orders and regulations. When county councils were established nearly half a century ago their duties were limited and their staffs were small, untrained, and largely inefficient. To-day, I say it without fear of contradiction—and many of your Lordships serve on county councils—the county councils have important functions and responsibilities to discharge, and they have highly trained and competent staffs to undertake the duties assigned to them by Parliament. You would think, therefore, that Whitehall would leave the details—I stress the word "details"—of the administration of these duties to the officials and the councils themselves, exercising only a general supervision over matters of policy. It is, however, a cause of serious complaint that Whitehall does not delegate its powers to the councils but submits the councils to a constant and harassing supervision in matters of detail that is absolutely unnecessary and uneconomical.
Some remarkable instances of this were given in a memorandum submitted by an important county council to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1932, making suggestions as to how economy could be obtained in local expenditure. The conditions, however, remain to-day exactly as they were in 1932. Nothing has changed. The only result of the memorandum was that it was put into the waste paper basket, I presume. I will take three specimen cases, with your Lordships' permission. The first is the registration of electors, half the cost of which is borne by the Treasury and half by the county. The work is carried out by county officers and a considerable staff is engaged in the various registration units. Directions are given by the registration officer, a county council official,

801
who examines the accounts, disallows unnecessary or excessive charges, and forwards the claim for half the cost to the Treasury. It can hardly be believed that at the Treasury these accounts are again submitted to a minute examination and correspondence takes place over months on the veriest trifles. I suggest that if a registration officer is competent to prepare the register and to decide, subject to appeal to the County Court. Judge, the title to the franchise, he is qualified to pass accounts for disbursement. Indeed, I suggest he is far better qualified, owing to his local knowledge of the conditions under which the work is carried out, than someone in Whitehall I submit that from the point of view of justice to the county councils, economy to the ratepayers and relief to the work done in Whitehall, the county councils should be trusted to carry out the work properly. If they cannot be so trusted, it would be better to do away with county councils.
The next instance is in connection with road making programmes. Some years ago, as I am sure those of your Lordships who are members of county councils will remember, county councils generally undertook schemes of road improvement at the instigation of the Government for the purpose of providing work for the unemployed. It was understood from the outset that the schemes were to be completed within five years and that so far as they were not completed they would not qualify for increased grants. Surely the business-like method of tackling a large problem of that kind was to take the schemes in rotation, so that the normal staff without any large addition could cope first with the preparation of the proposals and specifications and then with the supervision of the work. But that was not so. When some of the schemes were in hand the county councils were notified that the grants would be withdrawn unless the engineering works of each scheme were started by a particular date. Protests to the Treasury regarding this uneconomical method of dealing with the matter proved unavailing. Additional staff had to be engaged with a view to expediting those schemes which were intended to be put in hand in the latter part of the fixed period, with the result that when it became necessary to call a halt one County Council—the Council of my own County
802
of Hampshire—and no doubt other county councils were left with a number of schemes which could not be completed and accordingly gave no return on the vast sums expended on them. If the county councils had been allowed to regulate the matter, half the schemes would have been carried to completion and some benefit would have been derived from the expenditure.
The last instance which I would quote in this respect is with regard to school building programmes under the Hadow scheme. Local authorities were urged to expedite building programmes in order to enable the reorganisation of education to be carried out, and a higher grant was promised on expenditure on new schools actually begun by a certain arbitrary date. I do not quarrel with that. This involved the engagement of considerable staff in the county architect's department and the purchase of a large number of sites. It was followed very shortly afterwards by a direction from Whitehall to discontinue the scheme. I suggest that no local authority left to their own discretion would have organised a programme in that way.
I consider that waste and overlapping are particularly evident in connection with education. Is it really necessary—I should like a reply to this point from the noble Marquess who I understand will speak for the Government—that the sanction of the Board of Education should be obtained for the sites of new schools? Surely this is a case where the knowledge of the local authority—namely, the county council—would be sufficient. Buildings, too, are always subject to Whitehall control and plans submitted by the experts of the local authority are altered. That generally means greater cost, and I think it is greater cost without any real addition to efficiency or amenity. Statistics of all kinds are kept by the local authorities, but these are not considered sufficient by Whitehall, which duplicates and supplements them. I would submit to your Lordships' House that this is the real point we have to decide. Either the local authorities are competent or they are incompetent. If they are competent their work should be accepted in these small matters by the authorities at Whitehall. If they are incompetent they should be dismissed and the work centralised in Whitehall, which the Government appear

803
to desire. To go on with the present system is quite hopeless and most wasteful.
Now, may I say a word or two about town planning? Attention was drawn to the complicated and cumbersome requirements under the Town and Country Planning Act by Mr. Ivor Jennings, Editor of the Local Government Chronicle, in an able paper read before the annual conference of the Rural District Councils' Association in 1933. I have it from Mr. Jennings that what he wrote in 1933 is exactly true in 1936. Nothing has been done to change it. In describing the procedure under a town-planning scheme, Mr. Jennings enumerated no fewer than forty-four preliminary steps which were required under the Act when a scheme for planning was about to be prepared. I hope your Lordships will allow me to trespass upon your patience. If it is boring to you to listen to these various steps, just think how much more boring it must be for the local authorities to have to put them through. There are forty-four steps preliminary to town-planning schemes which local authorities have to put through under orders from Whitehall, before they can proceed with a scheme. It is a sort of House that Jack built, as your Lordships will learn in a moment.
The first step to be taken is consultation with interested local authorities. No. 2, considerations of representations made under No. 1. No. 3 the resolution to prepare the scheme. No. 4, notice thereof by advertisement. No. 5, considerations of suggestions approved under No. 4. No. 6, amended resolution, if considered necessary. No. 7, submission of resolution to Minister. No. 8, notice of transmission. No. 9, local inquiry, if Minister thinks fit. No. 10, approval by Minister. No. 11, notice of advertisement and to occupiers that resolution has taken effect. No. 12, preparation of register. No. 13, preparation of preliminary statement. No. 14, notice of preliminary statement to interested local authorities. No. 15, consideration of representations received under No. 14. No. 16, modification of draft preliminary statement, if necessary. No. 17, notice of intention to adopt preliminary statement. No. 18, consideration of representations received under No. 17. No. 19, submission of preliminary statement to
804
Minister. No. 20, notice of submission. No. 21, local inquiry, if the Minister thinks fit. No. 22, approval of preliminary statement by Minister.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I have read half only of the programme which this wretched town planning authority has to go through. I will not worry your Lordships with the other 22, but I do submit that this is farcical. How anything ever gets done, I cannot imagine, through this barbed-wire entanglement of inquiries, representations and considerations. And this is not the last of it. Even these steps which I have indicated to your Lordships were described as only a summary, which did not give an adequate idea of the complications involved or the detailed information which has to be disclosed at each stage. It did not, for example, mention the number of maps or certified copies which must be forthcoming. "I am quite sure," said Mr. Jennings—and he confirms that to-day—"that much of the cost of advertisements, notices, maps and inquiries could be dispensed with without injury to anyone."
May I take an illustration from another Act: the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, which lays down that standard widths may be adopted by a highway authority by resolution approved by the Minister? Before the resolution is submitted for approval to the Minister it must be advertised in a form to be approved by the Minister in two newspapers circulating in the locality. I want the attention of your Lordships for this: it must be advertised in a form to be approved by the Minister in two newspapers circulating in the locality; and the form prescribed by the Minister is such that every length of road has to be described in detail. In one instance—I think it was in my own county—it took eighteen feet of single column advertisements in each of the two local newspapers, or thirty-six feet in all, to do what the Minister desired should be done. The cost of that to the ratepayers was £245. There were thirty-six feet of advertisements, eighteen in each newspaper. I will show your Lordships what one newspaper had to insert. It could not be done in one edition, of course; they had to do it in two or three editions. There is the length of the advertisement, one in each of the newspapers. Well,

805
my Lords, it was hardly a laughing matter; it is not a laughing matter to the poor ratepayers who have to find the money for them.
Now may I for a moment, if you will allow me, turn to agriculture? There the increase in returns owing to bureaucratic methods is, I think, more noticeable than in any other trade or profession. I have taken one of my own farms, because one can speak with more freedom and less accuracy about one's own things than possibly one would if one took somebody else's. But in all seriousness I have done my best, if you will bear with me—because it is really of a good deal of importance, especially from the farmer's point of view—to show the immense increase in clerical burdens, even if the farmers have the ability to fill up the forms, that have come to them since the War. Take a typical farm of 390 acres—260 acres of pasture and 130 arable. What a happy time it was before 1914 in this countryx0021; The farmer then had only to fill up three forms: his Income Tax declaration, the June or midsummer agricultural return, and the sheep dipping return. He no doubt grumbled then, but he would not have grumbled if he had known how well off he was. In 1936, instead of filling up three forms, he has to fill up forty-one returns, besides the stock book.
I estimate that it takes him one night per week all the year round to fill them up. Is it fair that the farmer, who ought to be able to rest after his long day out in the fields, should have to spend one night a week filling up a lot of forms that cannot be of any use to anybody? I should like to enumerate, if you will allow me, these 38 forms, so that you will know that there has been no exaggeration in my statement. What are the forms which the farmer has to fill up in addition to the three which he had to fill up before the War? They are the agricultural supplementary return, the voters' list, a return for the Milk Marketing Board, the annual contract, the application for his motor licence, the application for his driving licence, one horticultural return, a census of output of milk, a return of horses for remount purposes, a monthly return of invoices for milk sold wholesale, monthly unemployment and labour exchange forms, four quarterly returns for the Cattle Committee, and four quarterly returns for the Potato
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Marketing Board. In addition to these, there is the book in which are recorded the movements of stock under the Movement of Animals Order, 1925. I calculate, having consulted other people down there, that at least eighty entries have to be made in that book every year. May I take a sideline on this? Who is to see that these entries are made? The police have to come round at uncertain times and inspect the books. That I do not complain of; what I do object to is the police being taken away from their proper work to do inspector's work. The police ought to remain free to prevent crime and punish malefactors, not spend all their time looking after sheep-dipping orders and that sort of thing. If you are going to have it at all, it ought to be done by a special inspector.
Now, if you will allow me, I will tell you the woes of my own estate office, because, after all, the estate office has to bear a similar burden to that of the farmer. Before the War my estate office had to send in fourteen returns; now I have to send in eighty returns instead of fourteen. I am not giving you any of them; I have brought them here, and if any noble Lord wants to see them, he can see them after the debate. I am not going to enumerate all these eighty returns, with the stock book as an extra, but I will tell you this: that owing to these returns, half of which I am sure could perfectly well be dispensed with, I have to keep a clerk working for six weeks in the year doing nothing else but fill up these returns. I may be able to afford it, but how is the small man able to afford to get a clerk or a solicitor to fill in these forms, which are largely superfluous and unnecessary?
With your Lordships' permission I will come to quite another aspect of Government activity—namely, the War Office. May I take for your consideration the returns which have to be submitted by a regimental commanding officer? When I say "regimental" I do not mean a battalion commanding officer, but in this case I mean the officer commanding a cavalry regiment, and I am sure the return will equally apply when they are mechanised. What has he got to do? What is he responsible for, the officer commanding a cavalry regiment? He has to send in every week a return of those attending Divine Service, and of the state of the coal supplies—nothing

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escapes the bureaucrat! Every month there is a return of sick and lame horses, of charges for shoeing, of carcases removed by contractors, of Salvationists on the strength of the unit during the month—what this means I do not know, but anyhow that is what I saw printed, "Salvationists on the strength of the unit." There are hire charges of horses used for hunting, polo and show jumping, and repairs to wireless sets. There is a quarterly return of special-sized garments for Reservists, the yearly report on the bandmaster, and the return of the number of those who have passed driving tests. May I have your Lordships' attention for these? These, with many others, amount to 1,120 returns during the year, made up of 364 weekly returns, 26 fortnightly returns, 588 monthly returns, 80 quarterly returns, 30 half-yearly returns, 28 annual returns and 4 casual returns.
Remembering this, what must happen to the brigade? I was always brought up to believe that a brigade consisted of two or more units. Assume for the purpose of argument that a brigade is three units. Three times 1,120 is 3,360. Then a Brigadier must receive 3,360 returns every year. No one will tell me that they are ever read. I do not believe that the 1,120 sent up by the regimental commanding officer to the Brigadier are ever read. I do ask the noble Lord who is going to answer if he would not go personally into some of these Army returns, which are a serious matter. They take away from the efficiency of the unit. They require that there shall be a number of officers in the orderly room doing this work when they might be much better employed in their duties as soldiers. There is one direction where I am certain there could be economy of money and effort. At present when the War Office has a bright idea it sends a letter round containing the news to each Command; then each Command sends out one copy to each of its formations, each division sends one copy to each brigade; and each brigade sends one copy to each cavalry regiment or infantry battalion. This involves a considerable waste of clerical labour, office machinery and materials. Would it not be possible for the War Office to send out at the first instance sufficient copies to cover its distribution to all those for whom it is intended? It would economise labour and time by probably one-third, and a considerable amount of money would be
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saved in stencil sheets, paper, etc., in the offices of the lower formations.
With your Lordships' permission I want to go to quite another subject—namely, coal. I received this morning from the noble Earl, Lord Scarbrough, who is unfortunately prevented by a previous engagement from being here this afternoon, the following letter or letters which I hope your Lordships will allow me to read. He says:
"I see you are raising the question of the cost of bureaucracy to-morrow, and send you attached in case you care to make use of it. It is a glaring case of centralisation given to me by a very active member of the Miners' Welfare Fund in Notts and Derby."
Then he says that he hopes I will bring it up. May I read this letter? It says:
"Dear Lord Scarbrough,
"I want to confirm the figures I gave you yesterday re administration cost in connection with welfare. As you know the Miners' Welfare Fund was created by Act of Parliament, 1920, under a levy of 1d. per ton on all coal raised in the country per annum. Later the Act was extended by a levy of 1d. on the royalties revenue, for installation of pithead baths, etc.… Now as to costs of administration."—
that is the point I want to bring out to your Lordships—
"In 1921 the London total expenses were £1,920. Since then I have had the following figures got out."
These figures show that in 1930 the total cost, instead of being £1,920, had risen to £25,846 in 1930, and last year had risen to £39,572. According to this correspondent of Lord Scarbrough, the expenses of the district committees, more or less local committees run by volunteers, had decreased from £12,340 in 1930 to less than £10,000 in 1935.
The writer, Mr. Mitton, goes on to say that the staff in London has now grown to 108, and that the Government now propose that there should be a superannuation scheme for their staff. He adds:
"On hearing of this the chairman of one of the districts wrote the Mines Secretary and asked if the scheme would apply to the district staffs, and the reply given was, No, as they are not Government officials."
You see everything is done for Government officials but people who are doing the same work in the country and who are not Government officials are not to have anything. Mr. Mitton goes on to say:

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"It was also stated not a single person employed at the Welfare Department has or has had any connection with the coal industry. No wonder there is unrest in the districts."
If my noble friend who will answer will allow me, at the end of the proceedings, to hand him this letter, I shall be glad to do so. I take no personal responsibility for the letter except that Lord Scarbrough knows the writer as an able man. The point we have to investigate is why is there this increase in London if in the country districts there is a diminution of cost; why should not the people in the country be treated in the same way as the people in the districts; and why in the Welfare Department should there be nobody who knows anything about the coal industry?
I have produced ample proof in many cases, I submit, that there is a waste of energy and public money in administration, both national and local. We have seen that there are the same duties performed by two sets of officials where one would be sufficient. Then what are the numbers and costs of bureaucracy? The figures were recently given by Mr. W. S. Morrison in reply to a question in another place. Asked for the number of civil servants employed in Government Departments, and their cost to the Treasury in salaries and wages, in the years 1914 and 1935 respectively, Mr. Morrison gave the following reply:
"The approximate numbers and annual costs of the staffs employed in Government Departments (including industrial staffs) for the years in question are set out below."
These show that in 1914 the numbers of civil servants was 353,000, and in 1935 471,000, an increase since the War of 33 per cent. The annual cost is startling. In 1914 the annual cost was £31,000,000 and last year the annual cost of civil servants had risen to £87,000,000, or an increase of 180 per cent. since the War. Yet in spite of that Mr. Brown, for the Clerical Association, says he is going to strike and intimidate the Government, unless he gets his demands granted. Surely, bearing in mind those figures, Mr. Brown will not have much sympathy from the public if he goes on strike. It must, of course, be remembered that the cost of living has gone up by 44 per cent., but nevertheless I submit that an investigation into the whole question is long overdue when you
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have the numbers increased by 33 per cent. and the annual cost by 180 per cent.
LORD BAYFORD: May I ask my noble friend whether these numbers include the postal service?
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I should imagine so. I can only read out the Government answer again:
"The approximate numbers and annual cost of the staffs employed in Government Departments (including industrial staffs)…"
I should think it would include the Post Office. Anyhow I am afraid I cannot go beyond what is in the answer. Are we any happier for all these extra officials. Do we have an easier time? And what about the pledges of economy we heard so much about in 1931 and 1932? If we have to spend additional money on armaments it is all the more reason why we should be more careful of our other expenditure.
May I remind your Lordships of a Report issued by a Committee of Private Members of the House of Commons in 1932? It suggested that large economies could be made by limiting the numbers and methods of the bureaucracy. It stated:
"We have proceeded on the basic assumption that the size of a staff and the cost of a Department are no measure of its efficiency."
That I think is a very important thing to keep in mind. They continue:
"Indeed, we incline to the view that the Civil Service is gravely hampered by growing circumlocutory methods, which impede the productive activity of the community with whom those Departments are brought into contact, and that many highly-placed officials tend to work too much along stereotyped lines and suffer from a lack of that great human endowment, a true sense of values. A reduction in the number of officials would, we believe, be in the best interests of the nation.
"We believe that a large reduction in staff could he made, without in any way reducing efficiency, by a simplification of the present procedure. The work of the Civil Service is passed through far too many hands, and minor details are considered by too many people.
"The number of forms used in different Departments at the present time seems altogether excessive."
This Report is now four years old, and no action has been taken to implement its findings. Red-tape and routine flourish, new Acts of Parliament add to

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the number of officials and to the orders, restrictions, regulations, notices and forms which reduce our liberty and convert us into mechanical drudges without the capacity for independent thought or action.
The civil servants of this country are both upright and able, but they must understand that the electors are their masters, and not their servants. Less legislation is needed. Every Act breeds officials and imposes further burdens on the taxpayers and ratepayers. Finally there is the power of Government Departments to make rules and regulations—a most pernicious practice as at present exercised. What did the Lord Chief Justice say of this procedure in his book? I am sorry he could not be here to-day; he wanted to come. He said:
"There is in existence a persistent and well-contrived system, intended to produce, and in practice producing, a despotic power which at one and the same time places Government Departments above the sovereignty of Parliament, and beyond the jurisdiction of the Courts…. The consequences, unless they are checked, must be in the highest degree formidable."
Lord Hewart cites a number of Statutes, over forty, which give this Minister and that power to legislate by rules, orders and regulations. They give the Minister power to modify the provisions of Acts of Parliament at his discretion, power even to modify the provisions of the very Act which invests him with this power. Above all are the clauses which decree that the Minister's orders shall be final and that no appeal from them shall lie to any Court. In practice, as we all know, these powers are exercised, not by the Minister but by the Civil Service, and Lord Hewart draws the conclusion that the exercise of these powers is the offspring of a well-thought-out plan, the object and effect of which is to clothe the Departments with despotic powers.
Finally, I will read out part of the Town Planning Act, 1925, as an example of Acts of Parliament which place the Minister above the law, above the Executive, above Parliament, indeed above everybody. This is a paragraph of the Third Schedule of that Act:
"An order under this Schedule shall be of no force unless and until it is confirmed by the Minister, and the Minister may confirm the order either without modification or subject to such modifications as he thinks fit, and an order when so confirmed shall,
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save as otherwise expressly provided by this Schedule, become final and have effect as if enacted in this Act;"
I want your Lordships to take note of this:
"and the confirmation by the Minister shall be conclusive evidence that the requirements of this Act have been complied with, and that the order has been duty made and is within the powers of this Act."
That is to say, if the Minister makes a regulation, the Courts cannot question it because that Schedule says it shall not be questioned in any way.
In those last few words we have been handing over to the bureaucracy powers to make laws at their own sweet will as long as they can get the Minister to sign them, and of course, he will sign anything that the Chief of his Department puts before him. Parliament and the country are partly to blame. If they will go on passing so many Acts of Parliament they will increase the cost of government and the number of officials. What we should do is to go back to our older and happier ways of having less legislation. We should then have a less expensive bureaucracy and smaller numbers to deal with. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That the cost of bureaucracy, and the crushing and complicated burden of compiling returns and making out forms for departmental and local government purposes, has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.—(Lord Mount Temple.)
LORD SNELL: My Lords, you will probably expect that those of us who sit on this side of the House should express a general attitude towards the problem which has been raised by the noble Lord. I cannot attempt to speak in detail as to how my Party would approach the issue that he has raised. The noble Lord is in any case sure of the sympathy of everybody who has to fill up forms. We are all of us victims of that passion which Whitehall seems to have for knowledge of other people's business. But that is the vice of Government Departments, and we all of us fret and fume and feel irritated, and sometimes we are in such despair about it that we think that refuge in a gas oven is probably the only relief. But that is not the whole of the story. We have to note in passing on this side that these evils of which the noble Lord has complained are not due to the last Socialist Government. As a rule that

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explanation is offered for your Lordships' consumption, but in this case it was obviously impossible.
Let me say that in my judgment, whilst we sometimes wish these forms and those who produce them were in the personal keeping of the father of all evil, we nevertheless have to say that most of them, though annoying, are a necessity of the life we live in association with each other. This difficulty is not limited to government. Every man who runs a business has to deal with entries and cross-entries, and checks, and references, and an elaborate mechanism of invoices, discounts, and vouchers, in order to keep himself out of the Bankruptcy Court. If all that is necessary in a small privately run business, how can any one expect that a vast and complicated machine such as a nation, or even a local authority, has to deal with can run without this system of obtaining accurate knowledge of what it has to do? This matter is irritating, but it is not a living, burning issue, as is seen by the fact that your Lordships have not turned up in numbers in order to slay this bureaucratic ogre that has been described.
What is the alternative to all this? It seems to me that whilst bureaucracy may go too far, on the other hand anarchic inefficiency is something which is very much worse. If yon get freedom from the making up of forms, you do not at the same time get freedom from the evading taxpayer or the revenue crook. Somehow it is a fault of human nature that, directly an Income Tax paper appears, people get a sort of fatty degeneration of the conscience. The nation could not be run, I submit, without these inquiries into the conditions of people. I should be very happy if the Revenue authorities did not take such a lively interest in my meagre income, but I never grumble about it. It is one of the services I render to the community—perhaps not the highest service, bat a necessary service, and I gain in return a higher freedom of security, of health, through local government and the Ministry of Health, and I profit as well as pay. The objector to filling up these forms will always arouse general interest from those who hate to give service to the State in any form whatever. I do not associate the noble Lord with that class of people, but I cannot help saying, if he will not think it rude of me to do so, that this afternoon has been an occasion
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of infinite enjoyment to him in that he has been able to bring a theme before your Lordships' House which aroused all his devotion and enthusiasm.
He had to fill up eighty forms! If the noble Lord tried to count his blessings as well as his afflictions he might imagine what might have happened to him if he had not had these forms to fill up. How would he have used the time? He might have become president of another Anti-Socialist Union, and your Lordships will forgive me if I say that his time was better employed in filling up these necessary forms for the State. Let him reflect on how dull a thing our civic life would be if we were debarred from these patriotic exercises. We know that the psychologists tell us that the real tragedy of life is to be unnoticed, to pass through life ignored, unwanted, dismissed. Here Government notices that we exist. It recognises that we are a unit in the process of civilisation which it has to sustain, and the noble Lord should think of the joy there is in splashing through and gambolling in a sea of official papers, of struggling day by day against these waves of forms that come to be filled up. He will know that by filling them up he gains a knowledge of himself and his own affairs that he would not otherwise possess. When the noble Lord passes on to discuss this matter in relation to local authorities, which he says are subject to constant and harrowing supervision, he arouses my very special interest. I cannot find it in my heart to say that on the London County Council we should not get on quite well without the attention of the Ministry of Health and without the attention of His Majesty's Government, but there is another side even to that. When we present our Money Bill to Parliament, that provides Parliament with about the only knowledge that it has of local government, so some good is obtained after all.
It is difficult to know just what is the limit to which bureaucracy can reasonably go. That is the real problem. A certain amount of bureaucracy, as it is called, there must certainly be. It never ought to run into a riot of excess, but if it is not sufficient then other influences begin to operate. I suggest that the whole thing has not to be judged as a matter of principle, but as a matter of expediency and utility. If you become a local administrator you are in very

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close contact with the grumbling ratepayer, and some of the advice that you receive from aggrieved people is distressing. A gentleman wrote to a local authority not long ago, saying:
"Thank you for your letter informing me that although I have given you a banker's reference and a private reference, all in duplicate, you cannot dispense with a monetary deposit. To be perfectly thorough, you should insist on a fidelity guarantee, a deposit of collateral security, and a doctor's examination certificate also."
That is the kind of response which the administrator receives for his work.
I should like, before I close, to say that our country is not alone in this evil. If I want to go to a friendly country I have to fill up a form stating whether I am a polygamist or whether my grandfather was properly vaccinated or not. I cannot say that these things are not necessary—it all depends—but I am quite sure that the noble Lord is wrong when he attempts to belittle the information which must reside in central offices if our country is to be governed efficiently. I would like to comfort the noble Lord by saying that the London County Council prints fifty million forms every year. If he will add that little fact to his collection of horrors I am sure it will be comforting to him. It is astonishing how willing people are to fill up forms if they are not for the common good. A gentleman, in The Times of yesterday, boasted that he had filled up 2,000 crossword puzzles. There is never any puzzle about my cross words; they are usually quite direct and clear; but I have a feeling in my bones that this same retired officer who has filled up 2,000 crossword forms would grumble terribly if he had to fill up six forms for the country in which he lives. What is the way out? I say we must have efficiency at all costs, even at the cost of filling up forms for the Government. We must have simplicity if we can get it, and we must not bother people for needless information. There may be a case for a general inquiry as to whether the matter has gone too far; but speaking for myself, and myself alone, I shall never personally grumble at the effort that is required of me to fill up these few forms in return for the citizenship and the freedom of citizenship that I enjoy.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: My Lords, I am only moved to address you briefly by the remarks which have just been
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made by the noble Lord opposite to whom your Lordships always listen with attention. I think that he made a most unworthy jest of what is a really serious public matter. Nobody questions that such forms as are necessary should be filled up, but I honestly believe that the number of forms of all descriptions, and the Parliamentary Papers founded on the information in those forms, together constitute something that every member of your Lordships' House who has studied the actual facts must resent. The cost is enormous and so also is the waste of time that is involved. The Motion before the House only speaks of departmental purposes, but I will give your Lordships one instance which came into my mind while the noble Lord was speaking of the way in which checks and counter-checks are made.
I remember that when we had a very large Army brought together thirty years ago for operations in the Transvaal, I found that the whole of the War Office staff was being kept all day on Saturday and three-quarters of Sunday carrying out the usual investigations and the usual checks and counter-checks, following a system that had been adopted in time of peace. I do not want to go into details, but I know that we made in the course of one afternoon an audit of 320,000 different weekly figures which had already been audited in two places. I am certain that if the Government would appoint two or three people to go into the question of the needless returns which are issued perhaps as the result of an order of Parliament made in consequence of the Motion of some enthusiastic Member thirty years ago, a vast number of these returns could be stopped. Many of these returns, I have been assured, are never opened. They are distributed very often to every member of both Houses of Parliament and they are never opened. They consume an inordinate amount of time and cost a very large sum of money. I am just as keen as the noble Lord, Lord Snell, for efficiency in every department, but I believe there is a strong case for examination by some independent authority into this question of the great mass of information which is given either, as the noble Lord who introduced this Motion suggests, by an order from local authorities or, still more, by the orders of Parliament given thirty or forty years

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ago. This sort of thing is being carried out at great cost to the country when the money could be better spent in other ways.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, the noble Lord who has introduced this matter to your Lordships this afternoon has certainly laid before you a very wide subject touching upon every branch of the administration. With all the skill of a lightning artist he has selected a feature here and a feature there, he has put them together, and the result has been that he has presented to your Lordships a somewhat lurid picture of the system of government under which we all live.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: May I interrupt the noble Marquess for a moment? He says that I have presented a lurid picture, but does he question so far any of my facts?
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: The noble Lord has not given me very much time. The noble Lord spoke, if I remember aright, for some fifty minutes; so far I have spoken for one minute; perhaps if he will allow me a few more minutes I shall be able to deal with some of his facts. Let me now proceed to say that as a taxpayer I naturally have great sympathy with the noble Lord at the increasing cost of the administration. I am prepared to go further than that and to say that in the matter of filling up forms I have myself often experienced something of the irritation amounting, I admit sometimes, almost to the exasperation which the noble Lord himself has experienced when he has been filling up some of the many forms with which we all of us in the course of the year are expected to deal.
But let us ask ourselves: After all, who is responsible for all this? Who is responsible for the existence of bureaucracy? Who is responsible for these millions of forms? Why, of course, Parliament itself, Parliament directly, and public opinion indirectly. Public opinion in the country is always demanding of Parliament that it should legislate on this subject or that, and sooner or later Parliament has to respond, and whenever the noble Lord himself has either voted for or acquiesced in some measure dealing with social or industrial conditions of the people of this country he
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has himself played a part in increasing both the size and the cost of the bureaucracy. These things are the penalty which we have to pay for living in a highly organised state of society. There are still parts of the world, in the dim recesses of Central Asia, for example, of which I have myself had some experience, where the noble Lord would find, if he cares to go there, that primitive simplicity which appears to appeal so strongly to him. There he will find no returns to fill up, he will find no organised sanitation, he will find no organised fight against disease, no organised education, and so on. But I think that after the noble Lord had lived there for a short time he would be quite willing to exchange the delights of the primitive simplicity of those parts of the world for the more highly organised complexity of this country, in spite of all the disadvantages of bureaucrats and forms.
It was suggested that some inquiry might be held into the extent to which the bureaucracy is superfluous and the expense of bureaucracy too great. Inquiries have been held into these very questions. Let me remind the noble Lord of the Inquiry which was held in 1923 by the Committee under Sir Alan Garrett Anderson into all these questions. What was the main and final conclusion to which Sir Alan Garrett Anderson and his colleagues came upon these matters? Why, the very conclusion which I have just laid before your Lordships. Let me quote this from the Report:
"The immense increase in the Civil Service pay roll has been imposed on the taxpayer for reasons which commended themselves to various Parliaments before and since 1914, and the conclusion we reach is that no power except Parliament can materially reduce the load."
Industrial and social legislation, however good it may be, means more staff and more taxes. Parliament, then, is responsible.
But we have had a further inquiry in more recent time, an inquiry which was conducted with great skill and great efficiency by the Committee under the Chairmanship of Sir George May. The conclusions to which Sir George May's Committee came were not altogether in agreement with the conclusions which the noble Lord has placed before your Lordships this afternoon. The noble Lord suggested that bureaucracy was always increasing and that no steps were ever

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taken to exercise any control over the numbers of the civil servants or the cost of the Civil Service. This is what Sir George May's Committee said:
"But we are satisfied that the method of control adopted is well calculated to maintain a high standard of administration, and that such economies as are from time to time possible will be secured as opportunities arise and will not be accelerated by any recommendations we could make."
Sir George May and his colleagues go on to give examples of reductions which have been made from time to time in the numbers of civil servants in different Departments and of the different methods employed to reduce cost.
Let me give to your Lordships only one example. The Committee say:
"Reference should be made here to one particular form of staff economy, viz., the substitution of mechanical devices for routine labour. In this respect, we believe the Civil Service to compare favourably with the best organisations in British industry. During the last five years, as much as nearly £500,000 has been saved annually in some twelve of the largest Departments by the introduction of labour-saving machines."
Then they go on to say:
"That is not to say that the total of the Civil Service has been reduced. On the contrary, new duties are constantly being imposed on the Civil Service and the reductions carefully and laboriously achieved year by year are frequently undone by a single Act of Parliament…"
That being so, it is Parliament itself which is responsible and Parliament itself which, if it desires to do so, can make a change in the system.
Let me now come to one or two of the particular points which the noble Lord brought to the attention of your Lordships. He spoke about the burden which was imposed upon the farmer in filling up an ever-increasing number of forms. Only last week I listened with great interest to a debate on a Motion moved in this House by my noble friend Lord Phillimore and widely supported by members of your Lordships' House. The noble Lord, Lord Phillimore, asked the Government what steps they were taking to make provision for adequate food supplies in time of war. Is it suggested that unless the Government had information with regard to the extent and the nature of production in this country they could possibly take any useful steps to provide for an adequate food supply in time of war? It was the late Lord Kelvin
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who said that we know very little about anything until we have contrived to measure it. The measuring rod in cases of this kind is, of course, statistics and statistics cannot be compiled unless information is obtained from those who are in a position to give it—in the case of agriculture, necessarily the farmer himself.
After all, agricultural statistics have been compiled in this country for a great number of years. I think the system of calling for certain agricultural returns was first introduced in the year 1866 and it has been in force ever since. For the greater part of that time—not for the whole of that time, but for the greater part—the supplying of the information required was voluntary. Yet at no time have more than 3 per cent. of those who have been asked to provide the information declined to do so, even when the completion of these statistics was voluntary. Therefore I cannot help thinking that the noble Lord is perhaps a little inclined to exaggerate when he tells us of the vast burden imposed upon the farmer by the necessity of supplying essential information of that kind.
It is quite true, as the noble Lord said, that the number of forms and the amount of information required has in recent years largely increased. That is admitted. Until quite recently the charge against the Government has been that they have done nothing for agriculture. During the past few years, the Government, through my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, have done a great deal for agriculture. They have established marketing boards and so on. The noble Lord complains that under these marketing boards forms have to be filled in. Of course they have to be filled in. You cannot possibly run boards of that kind unless you have the necessary information from the producer. I do not know whether the noble Lord—he told us he is a farmer—is a producer of live stock. I happen to be myself, and I welcomed very warmly the passage not long ago of an Act for the licensing of bulls, a measure which is certainly calculated to improve the standard of live stock in this country. It is quite true that under that Act further information has to be given and further forms have to be filled in, but I have never heard any complaints from any raiser of live stock on that ground.

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The noble Lord spoke rather, I think, as if not only the tenant-farmer but the landowner was called upon in connection with agricultural statistics to fill in a large number of forms. That, of course, is not so. It is the occupier in every case. No doubt in the case of a home farm the landlord is the occupier and it is as occupier that he is asked to fill in forms. Under the Rating and Valuation Act, of course, the landowner and the tenant have to fill in forms, but I would venture to point out that there the agricultural landowner and the agricultural tenant are in a better position than most people, because under the Derating Act they have only to make returns in respect of the actual dwelling house and not in respect of the farm land or farm buildings.
Now let me say a word about another department of Government to which the noble Lord referred, that of Education. I do not know whether the noble Lord is familiar with the record of the Board of Education in the matter of economies and reducing its staff. If he is, I should have thought he would have been pleased with what they have done, for the Board of Education during the past ten years have reduced their staff considerably; from 1,402 persons on the administrative side in 1925 to 971 in 1936, and on the inspection side from 400 in 1925 to 337 in 1936. The cost during the same period has been reduced from £456,000 in the case of the administrative side in 1925 to £332,000 in 1936, and from £359,000 on the inspection side to £335,000 in 1936, and that in spite of the fact that during the past ten years additional duties have been laid upon the Board of Education, including duties arising from the School Teachers Superannuation Act, 1925, itself. Moreover, the Board have had constantly under review all the annual forms and—this will appeal to the noble Lord—the returns which they require to be submitted. In the two years following 1926 an all-over reduction of between 30 and 40 per cent. was made in the number of the forms, and many of the current forms have been greatly simplified.
May I say that I agree profoundly with the noble Lord in his view that these forms, where they are necessary, should be as simple as possible, so that they are suited to the intelligence of the persons who are expected to fill them up? If they are not as simple as possible, you
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are very likely to get replies which you do not expect. I will give your Lordships an example of what I mean. When the Indian Military Academy was established in India a few years ago, certain information was required from those who desired admission to it, and one of the questions which was submitted to the applicants was as follows: "Kindly supply by post the following measurements: (1) What is your size in hats? and (2) What is your size in boots?" These were very proper questions, since military headpieces and boots were to be supplied by the Academy. One cadet gave the not very helpful answer to both those questions of "Six feet." He had first measured his size in his hat but without his shoes and found that he was six feet in a hat, and he had then taken off his hat and measured his size in his shoes, and that had also come to six feet. So, as we can see, it is very important that forms asking for information should be simple and as easily intelligible as possible.
I only want to say one word about the War Office, to which the noble Lord referred. The War Office, naturally, are responsible for what may certainly be described as vast numbers of forms, but they have to administer a very vast organisation and one with respect to which it is essential that expenditure should be as rigidly checked as possible. The question of the Army forms was, however, specially reviewed by a committee under the head of the Department, and it is continually reviewed by a committee which exists for that sole purpose. As a result the number of Army forms in use, so I am informed, has been reduced between the year 1920 and the year 1936 from about 3,400 to some 2,100, a very considerable reduction. I give your Lordships these figures to show you that it is not true to suggest that the Departments themselves are not conscious of the necessity of doing what is possible, day by day, both to reduce the cost of their establishments and to reduce unnecessary and redundant demands for information.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: Would the noble Marquess mind, as he has alluded to the matter, giving us the numbers of the establishment of the War Office at the beginning of that period and at the end, and stating what the cost was?
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: I am afraid that, without notice, I am not in a position to give the noble Earl those figures.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: The noble Marquess is very fortunate not to have them in his possession!
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: That may be so. The noble Lord who moved this Motion brought another matter to the attention of your Lordships, and that was what he described as the existence of two staffs—largely superfluous, as I gathered from him—in the administrative system of the country, namely, the staffs of the local authorities, the municipalities and county councils, on the one hand, and the central staff on the other. He rather suggested also, I thought, that there was considerable friction between the two, and a good deal of suspicion in the central staff as to the capacity of the local staffs for discharging their duties efficiently. My Lords, I do not think that is really at all a fair picture. Your Lordships will be aware that very large sums are contributed every year from central revenues to services which are administered by the local authorities, and Parliament itself lays down that it is essential that, where that happens, a due system of inspection should be maintained to see that the funds provided by Parliament are efficiently and properly administered.
Then again, take the case of the Ministry of Health, which I suppose comes into contact with the local authorities over a wider area than any other central Government Department. The Ministry of Health is called upon by the Act of 1919 to secure the preparation, effective carrying out and coordination of measures conducive to the health of the people, including measures for the prevention and cure of disease. Epidemic disease cannot be shut up in watertight compartments within the jurisdiction of particular county councils or particular municipalities. It spreads widely across all boundaries of that kind, and in these circumstances it is surely only reasonable that the central co-ordinating authority should have wide powers of supervision in dealing with outbreaks of disease of that kind. Then it may be said: "Oh, but all the by-laws made by these local authorities require the sanction of the Minister of Health."
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That is also quite true, but the reason for that is that you require, in a highly organised State, a certain measure of uniformity in your by-laws throughout the country, and it would be particularly embarrassing let us say, for example, in the case of the building trade, if they were controlled by one set of by-laws in one county and by a different set of by-laws in another county.
One word about what the noble Lord described as the cumbersome and complicated procedure of the Town and Country Planning Act. I should not have thought that the noble Lord would have had grounds for complaint in this particular instance. It is quite true that the procedure under the Town and Country Planning Act is a somewhat complicated one; but what are the reasons? The reasons are that Parliament, when considering both the original Act and the more recent Act, desired to safeguard the interests of the individual, and it was because so much care was required in the case of an Act of that kind, to safeguard and protect the interests of the individual citizen, that the procedure under the Act is so complicated. After all, it is not complicated for the individual. The noble Lord read out a very long list of the things which had to be done when a town planning scheme was being drawn up, but it is surely the bureaucracy which is entitled to complain, for it is the bureaucracy which has to undertake all these complicated measures, and not the individual himself. I think that those were the main specific points which the noble Lord raised in the course of his speech.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: What about the advertisements?
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: So also do the advertisements have to be placed in the newspapers not by the individual but by the local bodies.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: May I interrupt? What I complained of was that owing to the instructions from Whitehall much too complicated advertisements have to be given out, when a simpler procedure would have sufficed.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: It is conceivable, of course, that that may be so, and I have no doubt that those concerned will give careful attention to the points made by the noble Lord in that

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respect, but may I, in conclusion, say just a few words form a rather broader point of view? Under modern systems of government a Civil Service, or bureaucracy as my noble friend calls it, is essential. You cannot work the modern system of government without a large staff of civil servants. What is the ideal at which we should aim? The ideal, I think, was very well put by the noble Lord himself—that the Civil Service should be the servants and not the masters of the people. The dangers of the system are, of course, that the civil servants, or the bureaucracy, may become the masters of the people. A further danger is that they may occupy offices which become sinecures, and there is also, no doubt, a danger of corruption. My Lords, I would venture to say that in this country—and the noble Lord himself very properly, I think, said that—the reputation of the Civil Service for efficiency and for honesty stands as high as that of any Civil Service in the world.
NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: There are no sinecures, or if there are I in my modest experience of Government Departments have not discovered them. This, of course, is not to say that that was always the case. About 150 years ago Edmund Burke took grave exception to some of the Departments of State, and in 1780 he brought in a Bill the object of which was "The better regulation of His Majesty's Civil Establishments and of certain Public Offices, etc." The Department which excited his particular animosity was apparently the Department which in those days corresponded to the Board of Trade. He said:
"We want no instructions from Boards of Trade or from any other board; and God forbid we should give the least attention to their reports."
The Board of Trade of those days had been first established in 1668, and it had not survived very long, but it was re-established in 1696, and Burke, in speaking with regard to the re-established board, used these words:
"Perhaps it is the only instance of a public body which has never degenerated."
He hastened to explain that it had not degenerated because it could not possibly have been worse than it was at the beginning. He said:
"This board has had both its original formation, and its regeneration, in a job. In
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a job it was conceived, and in a job its mother brought it forth."
I think it is quite possible that in those days the office of the Board of Trade was something of a sinecure, because I notice that one of its members was a gentleman by the name of Gibbon, whom your Lordships will recognise as a well-known author, and Gibbon appeared to have resented some of the observations of Burke, for he said:
"The fancy of a hostile orator may paint in the strong colours of ridicule 'the perpetual virtual adjournment and the unbroken vacation of the Board of Trade'; but it must be allowed that our duty was not intolerably severe and that I enjoyed many days and weeks of repose without being called away from my library to the office."
Happily, there has been great improvement in matters of that kind since the days of Burke.
And, after all, the attitude which you should adopt towards the Civil Service of a country has for centuries been a problem which has exercised the minds of public men. It is sometimes interesting to see ourselves as others see us. May I quote to your Lordships a short extract from an interesting and entertaining description of things in China which has recently been published by Mr. Lin Yutang. He writes upon this very subject—upon the attitude which a country should adopt towards its bureaucracy. This is what he says:
"The plain, inexorable, political and historical truth is that when you treat officials like gentlemen, as we have been doing in China, one-tenth of them will be gentlemen and nine-tenths of them will turn out to be crooks; but when you treat them like crooks, with prisons and threats of prisons, as they do in the West, considerably less than one-tenth succeed in being crooks and fully nine-tenths of them succeed in pretending that they are gentlemen. As a result, you have at least the semblance of a clean government. That semblance is worth having. That is what China should have done long ago, and that was Hanfeitse's advice"—
Hanfeitse being a public man in China some time, I think, before the Christian era—
"two thousand years ago, before he was made to quaff poison."
I am happy to think, as I said, that to-day in this country it is not even necessary to treat our civil servants as crooks in order to secure that standard of efficiency and honesty which we require. And I am happy to think also

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that, whereas the critic of the Chinese bureaucracy two thousands years ago was made to quaff poison, the critic of the British bureaucracy in this year of grace, 1936, may continue with complete confidence and, so far as any risk of poison is concerned, I would venture to add with complete impunity, to eat and drink as he desires.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: My Lords, after the very charming speech of the noble Marquess I should not dream of pressing my Motion to a Division, and therefore I ask leave to withdraw it.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ROAD ACCIDENTS TO CHILDREN.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER rose to call attention to the great increase in recent years of road accidents among school children, and to ask His Majesty's Government what steps they have taken to carry out the recommendations of the Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee (England and Wales) on road safety among school children; and to move for Papers.
The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, some years ago I brought before the House this subject of road accidents among children, and I venture to bring the subject again before the House, because quite recently there has been published an extremely interesting Report by an Inter-Departmental Committee which was appointed to investigate the subject. The Report is a very valuable one and the Committee conducted an investigation much more thorough, I think, than anything of the kind before into this particular subject. Of course the whole question of road accidents among children has as its background the much larger subject of the general casualties on the road through motor traffic. I have only admiration for the vigour and perseverence of the Minister of Transport in his endeavour to reduce these casualties. But the position at the present time is far from satisfactory. In the figures given only a week ago of the previous week's casualties there were 137 deaths on the road and 5,092 injured, and in the same return it was stated that in the first twenty-seven weeks of this year there had been 2,999 deaths on the road and 106,000 injured, that is to say, a number rather larger than the
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population of Plymouth and not far short of the population of a great city like Croydon. One-fifth of those who are killed on the roads are children under the age of fifteen, and it is stated that for one child killed on the road there are thirty injured, some of them injured permanently for life.
At the beginning of this century there were rather over 400 children who were killed on the roads. In the year immediately after the War that figure was raised to 800, and the last reliable figure I have, a figure given in this Report for the year 1933, shows that 1,245 children were killed on the roads. That was a slight reduction on the previous year, but it shows how enormous the increase has been during this century in the casualties among children, and we must remember that, in addition to the deaths, there are probably between 30,000 and 40,000 children who are injured more or less seriously. Not only are the children killed or injured on the roads, but there is grief and sorrow in many a family and, quite apart from those who are directly affected, parents in many cases are filled with an almost morbid anxiety throughout the day as to whether their child will return in the evening in safety.
I am sometimes amazed at the indifference which as a nation we normally display to these casualties on the roads. If a dozen people are killed through an aeroplane accident or in a railway accident there are announcements on the newspaper placards, columns on the first pages of the newspapers, Questions asked in Parliament, Committees set up to inquire; while, if 130 people are killed in a week on the roads and 4,000 or 5,000 injured the news is probably put on a back page, and we simply say: "Thank God the numbers are not larger than they are." It is quite extraordinary how apathetic we are as a nation to this continuous loss of life on the roads. Let me quote one passage from this Report, dealing with this question:
"The loss to the nation of upwards of a thousand children who are killed every year in road accidents, and whose deaths bring sorrow and distress to so many homes, is a matter of the gravest concern to everyone, and is an appalling price to pay for the increased amenities which the motor vehicle has conferred upon the community."
The Committee investigated the causes of the road accidents and it placed the

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causes in two groups. There are those which are due to circumstances external to the child, through no fault of the child. Such circumstances are to be found in the fact that the child has to use the roads, and in 70 per cent. of the roads of the country there are no footpaths. The child must use the roads to go to and from school. In our towns, very often the child has to use the pavement for its games. It is all very well for you to say children ought not to be allowed to play on the pavements or in the roads of our towns, but frequently in our larger towns there is nowhere else where they can play, and along these roads there goes a swift traffic. Sometimes the traffic is reckless and careless, and an injured child has to pay its contribution and make its sacrifice to our mania for speed.
The other causes of accidents which form the second group are to be found in the child's own temperament. It would not be fair to say that all these accidents, or anything like all these accidents, are due to the carelessness or recklessness of motorists. All of us, I suppose, know how frequently, with the utmost care in driving, it is difficult to avoid children who suddenly dart across the road. Children are naturally impulsive, impetuous, thoughtless, sometimes adventurous, and they fail to recognise the reality of the dangers of the road. Any measures intended to reduce the casualties among children on the road must take into consideration these two great groups of causes. The recommendations put forward by this Committee are very comprehensive and pay regard to these special difficulties. I have no intention of going in detail into these recommendations. There are no fewer than fifty-one of them. Some of them seem rather trivial, one or two seem to me rather impracticable, but most of them are quite excellent.
The Committee, speaking quite broadly, recognise four lines of advance. First of all, they recommend the appointment of local child safety committees. These committees are to represent various interests, and their one purpose is to consider how children may be protected from harm in the roads in that particular district. They would have no executive power, they would be advisory bodies only; but they would discover the dangerous places, they would consider and recommend how these places might be made safer, and they
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would see that propaganda was carried on among the parents and among the children. I attach very great importance to the recommendations of these local safety committees which are to guard the interests of children, and I should be very grateful if the noble Earl who is to reply could give us any information as to whether these committees have already been started or whether there is any intention of promoting them in the future.
The second line of advance is for the protection of the children going backwards and forwards to school. Under this heading are included measures such as more police to be placed at the spots where there is danger and where the children have to cross the roads. Where it is not possible to have police, they suggest there might be voluntary patrols helping the children to cross; there should be more crossings; there should be traffic light signals which might be used by children. The Committee also make the important suggestion—controversial, but into that I shall not go at this moment—that all cyclists—and there is a considerable number of fatalities among children who are cycling—should in future have a red lamp.
Then there is a third line—education among the children so that they may be trained to have a sense of the dangers of the road and how best they may use the roads with safety. I know this kind of education has been given for some years with success in London and I have no doubt in a large number of other centres. The education proposed here is, however, more thorough than is usually adopted. It is graded education, dealing with infants, with junior children, and with the children who have passed the junior stage. If, of course, this kind of education is given thoroughly, wisely, and systematically in the different schools the children will be trained to curtail their natural impulsiveness and thoughtlessness when they are near or crossing roads on which there is a large amount of traffic.
Another line of advance which is suggested concerns playing fields. We all recognise how important it is that children should have the opportunity of convenient and sufficiently large fields and places in which they can play. If playing fields are not provided they are bound, as I have already said, to play

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on the pavements and in the roads, with danger to themselves and to others. The Committee recommend not only the provision of playing fields—not always an easy matter—but the provision of playing places for younger children nearer their homes. They also recommend that certain streets should be closed for so many hours in the week to all traffic so that in those streets the children may play. I remember making that suggestion in this House some years ago and stating that the experiment had been tried with success in America. At that time it was regarded as a somewhat impracticable suggestion. I had many letters pointing out how absurd the suggestion was, and I certainly had no encouragement from any responsible speaker in favour of it; but this has been tried in the Borough of Salford with great success and I believe also it has been tried elsewhere. Of course it is not popular among the inhabitants of the streets which are chosen, but the children play in those streets whether the inhabitants like it or not. If it is unpopular for that reason, it may be better to have some rotation of streets in which the children can play in safety.
These are the main lines on which the Committee recommend that action should be taken, and I should be grateful if the noble Earl will tell us how far any of these proposals have been acted on. I am not asking for a detailed reply, but I should like to know how far action has been taken to bring into existence the safety committees recommended. Also I should like to ask how far this Report has been brought to the notice of the education authorities. Directly the Report was issued the Minister of Transport sent it to the various highway authorities but I am not sure that the same was done to the education authorities. It is quite essential, if anything is to be done on these lines, that we should have the full co-operation of the teachers. The teachers are most deeply concerned in this matter, most anxious to safeguard the children committed to their care, and it is a matter of supreme importance that the teachers should have this Report brought before them. I think it would be advisable for the headmaster of every school to be asked by the proper authority to make his own observations as to how best the proposals can be carried out in regard to his school.
There is one other matter to which I desire to refer. As I said at the beginning, it is impossible to treat this subject entirely apart from the wider subject of the general casualties on the road. I feel quite certain that the recommendations of which I have spoken will not succeed to any large extent until much more drastic steps are taken to deal with reckless and selfish driving. I suppose my own experience is that of most of your Lordships. I am always travelling on the roads, in country lanes and towns, and also on the main high roads between London and the South coast; the only part of my diocese I cannot reach by car is the Channel Islands. My own experience is that the majority of drivers on the road are skilful, considerate, and cautious. I have no complaint to make against the great majority of those who drive on the roads, but there is a small minority of utterly reckless and selfish drivers who make the roads a menace to old and young alike. It is quite useless to appeal to their common sense. They have no common sense. It is useless to appeal to their courtesy. They have no good manners. It is useless to appeal to their conscience. That has been atrophied on this matter long ago. The only way to deal with them is by much more drastic penalties. For the sake of speed, for the sake of getting to their destination a moment or two earlier, they are willing to kill any man, woman, or child, or to risk the killing of any man, woman or child, who happens to be in their way. We shall never deal with this evil until the authorities who are responsible for administering the law take a much firmer, stronger and more consistent attitude in this matter.
There is one more quotation bearing on this which I should like to read to the House. The Report states:
"…we are strongly of the opinion that more consistent and vigorous action on the part of the authorities responsible for enforcing the laws relating to the use of the roads will materially assist in reducing the number of road accidents…in serious cases, or in other cases where repeated fines have proved ineffective, imprisonment is called for. Furthermore, we would emphasise the desirability of a more general use by the Courts of their power to disqualify drivers from holding or obtaining a licence. To remove from the road, either permanently or for a period, drivers who have been found guilty of dangerous or inconsiderate conduct, appears to us to be a peculiarly appropriate method of reducing the risk of accident."

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This is a question which concerns the whole of the community, and I am sure that the more thoughtful members of the community would welcome it if the Government, the administrative authorities, and the judicial authorities took a much stronger line on this matter than they have in the past. I beg to move.
THE EARL OF CAVAN: My Lords, I hope you will allow me to detain you for two or three minutes while I speak in hearty support of the right reverend Prelate's Motion. I have read the whole of the Report of the Committee from which he has quoted. I liked it so much and considered it so extraordinarily interesting that I was able to increase the Government revenue to the amount of 6s. by selling twelve copies of it yesterday to the National Playing Fields Committee. Everyone ought to read it. I would like to draw attention if I may to three inexpensive ways by which I think this urgent problem can perhaps be mitigated. The first is in relation to the slum cleared areas. We are now engaged in clearing slums throughout the country. There are some perfectly excellent examples of what can be done in these slum cleared areas. I would first quote the Tabard Street site in Southwark, which is a magnificent example of what can be done for children in a crowded area. And Manchester is now proceeding with some excellent schemes. It is quite possible, I think, during the period between the clearing of the slums and the re-erection of other buildings to allot a certain portion of the area to children.
The second suggestion, which also I think is not expensive, is this. It is quite obvious to all your Lordships that the modern tendency in architecture is to build flat roofs. A great deal more use can be made of these roofs both on public buildings and certain buildings erected for organisations like the Y.M.C.A. The latter's building in Hornsey has an admirable flat roof which has been adapted to its needs. I would ask the Ministry of Health not to overlook that possibility. Thirdly, little corners. I am rather distressed in our work for the National Playing Fields Society to find, on approaching local authorities to obtain playing fields for children, that we are so often met with the response that it is quite impossible to find an area large enough in size. But there are in almost every city little corners which can be adapted
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very cheaply. A small chestnut fence can be put round the corner, two cartloads of sand poured into it, and, if possible, an old log added. There is nothing so delightful to children as an old log on to which they can climb and from which they can jump. That can be done even if it is not possible to erect a swing or roundabout or anything of that sort.
Those things can be done, and are being done in various places. It is the increased use of these small areas that may help to solve this problem of giving the children somewhere to play. My chief point is that these recommendations are not expensive but they are urgent, and I think, however petty and small they may seem to your Lordships, that they will help a little till something better can be done to reduce the ghastly total of 18,500 children killed and 300,000 injured in the last fifteen years. But larger schemes must instantly be put in hand, even if it puts a half-penny or a penny on the rates. I cannot believe that any single British citizen would begrudge that penny to obtain the desired mitigation of the awful state of affairs as to which the right reverend Prelate has so eloquently appealed in his Motion.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I have only one adverse criticism to make upon the Motion of the right reverend Prelate, and that is that it is not sufficiently wide. We ought not to be considering simply the case of school children. Every class, every age, and every section of society is affected, and I think the right reverend Prelate might well have considered the case of those persons who, consciously or unconsciously, like myself, are approaching the age of second childhood themselves. The Report is one of a very moderate and temperate nature, and there is nothing sensational about the recommendations. They are recommendations to which I cannot imagine any reasonable person objecting. There is also a good deal of useful information which one can acquire. I learned, for instance—I did not know it before—that the number of mechanically-propelled vehicles in this country now reaches 2,500,000 and there are apparently 7,000,000 cyclists. That makes altogether a total of 10,000,000 possible dangerous objects which the pedestrian is likely to encounter in the course of a walk. And this does not exhaust the category, because fresh cars, if I am not

835
mistaken, are being produced at the rate of 500 a day.
Your Lordships can imagine what the result will be. At present the casualties are roughly near 2,250,000, and an average of 7,000 people are killed. Your Lordships can imagine for yourselves what the position will be with this continuous increase going on. It does almost stagger one's imagination. The cause of all this trouble is really defined in one sentence in the Report. This carnage and mutilation on the roads is entirely due, in the opinion of the Committee, to what they euphemistically describe as inconsiderate driving—in other words, driving much too fast and too carelessly. As the right reverend Prelate pointed out, the obvious explanation of this behaviour on the part of a section of motorists is that they are never, or very seldom, adequately punished. If the law were properly enforced and if they realised that they were going to be treated according to their deserts, these casualties would instantaneously diminish. I have before now commented on the extraordinary laxity with which the law with regard to motoring offences is administered and the extraordinary leniency which seems to prevail all over the country with reference to motoring offences. Every day one sees instances of this. Only a few days ago I noticed a report of two cases in which the magistrates who tried them were so anxious not to injure the offenders that, although both of them pleaded guilty, both cases were dismissed.
You can still, as far as I know, kill a person or mutilate him for life for a penalty of 40s., or possibly less than that. You can still smell of drink and find a doctor who will say that upon the whole alcohol is a great advantage for people who are in the habit of motoring. Every sort of excuse is found. What is perhaps more remarkable than almost anything else is the fact that in the case of convictions every opportunity seems to be taken not to endorse licences. I gathered from a statement made not long ago by, I think, the Home Secretary that out of 100,000 convictions for exceeding the speed limit, less than half of the licences were endorsed. There was a very remarkable case in London this month to which I think my noble friend Viscount Cecil intends to draw attention. On July 2, before a magistrate whose name I
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think deserves to be commemorated, Alderman Colonel Eaton, a number of motor drivers were brought up for exceeding the speed limit in the City. They were fined small sums, but the Alderman declined to endorse the licences. When the Clerk of the Court, who presumably knows his business, told him that the endorsement, of licences was not conditional but was automatic, he still refused to do it. I suggest that action of this kind ought to be taken notice of by the legal authorities because it seems to me to be an impudent contravention of the law.
In these circumstances, how can you possibly expect any diminution in the number of casualties? There is no reason why they should stop at all. I sometimes wonder whether motorists—amongst whom I include myself—realise what an almost intolerable nuisance they are to the rest of the community. Motorists, amongst whom as I say I include myself, have I suppose killed and mutilated at least 1,000,000 people during the last ten years, although I am happy to say that, so far as I am aware, I have never injured any one in that period nor has any one in my service. But motorists not only shorten people's lives, they have made a considerable difference in their lives. They not only inflict appalling injuries upon them, but they alter the method of people's lives. Take the case we are discussing this afternoon. In former days when roads were really roads and were not unfenced railway tracks, children used habitually to play in them. To-day it is far safer for children to play upon a railway, especially on a railway that has been ruined by road transport, than in the streets.
On that particular point I would like to make a suggestion of my own to the Minister. I have not the least expectation that it will be adopted, because although it is simple it is drastic. What I suggest is that where there is no footpath—and there are no footpaths on 70 per cent. of the roads—the motorist really does not know where to expect to come across a pedestrian. He may be on the left, or he may be on the right, or he may be in the middle of the road. The suggestion I make is that where there is no footpath pedestrians should be compelled always to keep on the left. It would have the effect that the motorist would always be behind him, and therefore

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fore it would ensure the motorist having to drive much more carefully, and in particular to be much more careful in going round corners. It would have the simple advantage that if the pedestrian was on the wrong side of the road the onus would be upon him, while if he was on the proper side of the road the onus would be on the motorist.
Of course that does not cover the case mentioned by the right reverend Prelate of children who dart across the road. I do not know how that matter can be dealt with, but I am sure this simple practical suggestion would have a considerable effect. I am emboldened to think so because I have done a good deal of motoring on the Continent and the casualties on the road on the Continent are far fewer than in this country. I believe that to be due to the fact that on the Continent they have the same rule for vehicles as for pedestrians, whereas we have one rule for pedestrians and another for vehicles.
This subject, like everything else, has been much clouded and obscured by a mass of propaganda. There are three kinds of propaganda. One proceeds from the motorists themselves, and the motorists themselves always try to convince the rest of the world that there is no danger in speed. I have even known them go so far as to say sometimes that the quicker you go the safer it is. They also try to convince us that the ordinary pedestrian is a person of suicidal inclination, who takes a perverse delight in causing his own destruction, and actually wishes to destroy the motorist. I do not believe that the ordinary pedestrian is animated by anything of the kind. The only class of people who seem to have suicidal inclination are the cyclists. I think that accusation might he brought against cyclists who do not ride on the tracks provided for them, who will not carry lamps and therefore run the risk of being run down by vehicles, and who thrust themselves into the most dangerous situations. It is a wonder to me that more of them are not killed than is the case.
The second kind of propaganda is on the part of the pedestrians. They are always claiming to be protected and are sometimes unreasonable in asking for a greater share of the surface of the road than that to which they are really entitled.
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The third form of propaganda is that conducted by the Government, which consists of offering advice which shortly comes to this. They adjure the motorist to drive considerately. That to my mind is perfectly futile when applied to the class of persons described by the right reverend Prelate. You might as well advise the young, high-spirited, enterprising youth or maiden who has become the proprietor of a sports car to exercise moderation, as appeal to an alligator or a boa-constrictor to moderate his appetite. It is perfectly useless to appeal to people of that sort at all. The danger, I might almost say the ignominy, of being run over by one of these machines is, I always think, very much worse—at all events I feel that it is very much worse—than that of being run over by a commercial vehicle. At any rate in the latter case the man is earning his livelihood, whereas in the former case the people are out for their own amusement at the cost of human life. A sports car in the possession of a high-spirited youth or maiden is just as dangerous as a loaded revolver, and from that class of person we ought to be protected as carefully as we are protected from the vendors of poisons.
The moral is that it is no good relying upon propaganda. What, for instance, is the use of telling a pedestrian to be careful when he is walking? No pedestrian wants to be killed, and there is nothing in the Highway Code that any person of average common sense would not do of his own accord without looking at it at all. If you learnt the whole of the Highway Code by heart you would not be any safer than you were before; it would have about as much effect upon your conduct as learning the Thirty-nine Articles has upon an undergraduate's progress in the study of divinity. The remedy is perfectly obvious and perfectly simple. What you want is more drastic legislation. You want to make the motorist feel that if, by accident or by his own fault, he causes serious bodily injury he really will suffer; that he will not be let off with a nominal fine, but that he may be sent to prison, and that at all events he will be suspended from driving. When you do that you will really achieve some result.
We have a great deal for which to thank the present Minister of Transport, for he is the first Minister, as far as I know, who

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has taken any really serious steps to protect the public from this danger, and I would suggest to him that there is really very little danger in embarking upon drastic legislation with regard to motoring offences. Of course there would be considerable opposition from one section, but on the other hand I am convinced that this would be one of the most popular measures a Government could bring in. After all, a great majority of people do not own motor-cars at all, and they would all welcome a change of this nature with enthusiasm. It would be equally welcomed by the great majority of motorists themselves. If you do this then we really shall see some change, but if we merely go on advising, recommending and deploring, nothing whatever will happen; the tide of slaughter and mutilation will continue to rise until it reaches a level which ought to make us ashamed of ourselves as a civilised country.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, the House owes a great debt of gratitude to the right reverend Prelate for bringing this matter once again to its notice. I could have wished that he had extended his Motion to cover the whole evil, but undoubtedly the point he raises is typical of the great scandal which now exists in the administration of this country. He referred to the apathy of the people, but that is nothing to equal the apathy of the Government—not of this Government only, but of all Governments. I cannot understand why, but they do not really take the slightest interest in the subject. They may, of course, do so in their own minds, but they do not really make any serious effort to cope with the evil. After all, the evil is terrific. I cannot understand why there has not been a greater outburst of indignation on the subject. Here are these thousands of children, hundreds of thousands of children, being killed and injured by perfectly preventable causes. That is the fact, there cannot be any dispute about it. We go on and allow it to happen year after year; and not only children but a number of other citizens are killed and injured. I never can remember figures, but I think the right reverend Prelate said that the children numbered about one-fifth of the whole. That means that you must multiply the totals by five to see what is the total of the deaths and suffering that are being caused by this state of things.
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My only criticism of the right reverend Prelate's speech is that I doubt very much whether, if all the remedies which he proposes were adopted, as perhaps they will be, there would be a very great deal of difference. The remedy has got to be much more drastic and complete if we are really to deal with this matter. I know it is said that the main cause of these accidents, or one of the main causes, is the carelessness of the pedestrian. In the first place there are the children. It is fantastic to talk about the carelessness of children; that is one of the facts of human nature. You have to face the fact that children will not be very careful, and you cannot devise any penalty half as severe as that of which they run the risk if they are careless. Nothing can really be done to improve that side of the problem. You may try to persuade them to be more careful and you may have a result—nothing very much. Then it is said, as my noble friend Lord Newton said in his interesting speech, that you ought to have much more severe and drastic penalties for the motorist. I think that on the whole, particularly in some courts, the motorist is let off too lightly. There is undoubtedly a kind of fellow-feeling in certain tribunals, because they are conscious that they are owner-drivers themselves and they therefore have a certain sympathy with any driver who is brought before them. But I doubt very much whether a mere increase of penalties is going to produce a real remedy.
In my own view the great cause of this state of things is that we have never realised what is the problem with which we have to deal. Motors have always been treated as a kind of improved horse-carriage. All the legislation, all the way of looking at the subject, has been that to which we were accustomed when the wheeled traffic on the road went at something between five or ten or at the outside, twelve miles an hour. Once you introduce these machines which can go at up to sixty, seventy or eighty miles an hour and which commonly go at forty or fifty miles an hour on the road, you have an entirely different problem. It is a different state of things altogether. You have to deal with the same kind of problem as that with which you had to deal on the railways, and if the motor had been treated as a kind of railway train and the same kind of precautions

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had been taken against accidents as were taken on the railways, we should have had a very different state of things. After all, the railways when they began did cause a number—nothing like this, but still a certain number—of accidents, and it was gradually found that the only way to prevent accidents was to confine the railways to certain tracks which should be fenced off. Nobody was allowed to cross the railway on the level except under very strict conditions. Bridges were more and more made over the railways, so as to prevent any common use of the road by railway trains and other traffic. You have by that legislation, coupled of course with very elaborate compulsory provisions for the safety of the trains themselves, achieved a very remarkable degree of safety, not only in this country but all over the world. This country, perhaps, is the safest of all, but all railways are comparatively safe things. You do drive trains of heavy weight, and going at enormous speeds, and you drive them with safety.
I believe that that is the true example of what we ought to aim at. As long as we insist upon using our roads for traffic which goes at forty, fifty or sixty miles an hour and, at the same time, for traffic going at four or five miles an hour, and allow children and cyclists and others to use the road in the same way as motors, I do not believe that any legislation which you can devise will materially or greatly diminish the slaughter by accidents on the roads. I have become myself convinced that the only remedy is to divide the roads of the country into speed roads and roads which are not speed roads. The speed roads you should treat exactly on the same lines as you treat railway traffic. You should provide up and down roads, and fences at the side to prevent unauthorised or dangerous intrusion on the road. On the other roads, which must exist for ordinary traffic, you should have a very strict and very severe speed limit, and as large a penalty even as Lord Newton would desire for any breach of the rules. Of course you would have to provide some kind of speed indicator, such as I have advocated, on each motor car. I believe that a remedy on those lines is possible, and likely to be of good effect, and I do not believe that any other remedy will be permanently effective.
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I recognise that it is not a thing which can be done in a moment. It has got to be done gradually, but I would like to hear from the Government that they have some plan which they can put before the country showing that at some future date they would be able to have some scheme of that kind for road traffic. You could, for instance, say that no road should be without footpaths, and that if a road has footpaths there must be some speed limit, because you cannot allow roads to be used by machines going at this speed. I think you could have a provisional measure of that kind. I understand that they are trying experiments in the shape of fencing off the roadway from the footpaths. These would be preliminary measures which you could try and set going. In that way you might gradually improve matters. But in the meantime I entirely agree with Lord Newton that the law as it stands must be enforced, and enforced strictly.
I have put down the case to which he alluded, but I will not say anything more about it until I hear what the Government reply is going to be. I think, however, there is ground for saying that there ought to be a temporary and provisional measure before you can bring forward the reform for which I have briefly and perhaps inadequately pleaded. I think also there should be a way of trying these offences so that there can be a regular and ascertained penalty, and you will not have the scandal of seeing some offending motorists get off without penalty while others may be severely punished. These are the conclusions to which I have been led by consideration of this matter. My conclusions may be wrong, but I hope the Government will look at this problem from that point of view.
The present Minister of Transport began his term of office in a way which led many of us to hope that something effective was going to be done. He has done some good, and has I believe produced some diminution in the number of accidents in some parts of the country, but no one who has followed the frequent and proper statements as to the accidents on the road can help feeling grave disappointment that so little has been done. It is quite true that the number of accidents to motorists has

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diminished, but as to the total number of accidents, although there is a slight downward tendency, it is very slight, and the latest figures published would indicate that that tendency has stopped. Until the Government realise that this is really one of the most important matters of administration in this country, and really take measures which are adequate to deal with it, not minding all sorts of little difficulties raised by the curiously selfish interests which are affected, they will fail to remedy this matter, and whether they suffer from it at the polls or not, they will certainly suffer for it from the verdict of history.
LORD ELTON: My Lords, I would, too, like briefly to express my gratitude to the right reverend Prelate for introducing this Motion, and my sense that the annual slaughter on the roads, and the public indifference to it, to which more than one noble Lord has referred, combine to present one of the most shocking features of modem civilisation. It does not present itself, as we have been reminded, in votes, but I venture to say, and I myself believe, that this problem, morally and socially, is as formidable and important as the problem of unemployment or the problem of the slums. The slaughter of children is of course the most pathetic, and probably the most wasteful, aspect of this most complex of problems. I believe it is a fact that the age group ten to fifteen provides the greater proportion of victims until you come to the group sixty-five to seventy. I must say that reading through this Report, I am left very strongly with the impression, which has been reported by at any rate one other speaker, that you cannot isolate the problem of the children from the problem of the roads as a whole.
About forty-five of the recommendations contained in the Report are recommendations which apply solely to school children—they are things which you can do specially for school children—but I am afraid that, as the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, has said, even if all are put into effect, they will be but mere minor palliatives. The only really hopeful proposals in my view are the first four or five in the Report, contained under the heading "General," which envisage, and assail, the problem as a whole. I understand that it is the noble Earl who represents
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the Ministry for Education who is to reply, and I take it that for the purposes of this debate the Government envisage this as an educational problem to be tackled in the schools, but as we also see the noble Earl who speaks for the Ministry of Transport present, I trust it will not be thought out of place if I draw attention to one or two of the wider recommendations contained in the Report.
First of all, may I say something on the question of severer penalties, which has been dealt with from various angles by more than one noble Lord this afternoon? I am very glad to see that the Report refers to penalties being such as "to act as a real deterrent." There can be no possible shadow of doubt that in nine cases out of ten they do not act as a deterrent now. May I give one instance, and it is by no means abnormal? You could pick one yourselves out of every other issue almost of your daily newspaper. In Bradford a driver who was convicted of driving without a licence, without a third-party insurance, and of killing a woman on a pedestrian crossing, was cumulatively sentenced to a fine of three pounds, with ten shillings costs. Now Chicago is not a city to which we are accustomed to look for tenderness for human life, but some of your Lordships may have noticed in the Press lately a reference to a certain Judge Gorman in Chicago, who claims in three weeks to have reduced deaths by dangerous driving in Chicago by 50 per cent. And how did he do it? Every conviction for dangerous driving, or driving under the influence of drink, meant imprisonment, ten days at least in the county gaol, and Judge Gorman, I see, states that in his belief in six months there will not be a problem of dangerous driving and road casualties left in Chicago.
Well, I will not say we want more Judge Gormans in Great Britain, but I am coming reluctantly to the belief that it is no good going on appealing to magistrates and the rest to enforce adequately and uniformly the existing law. Appeals have been made in your Lordships' House and in another place and in the Press, and, I think I am right in saying, by the Lord Chancellor, and virtually no results have accrued. I am being driven myself—and I know others are also being driven—to the conclusion that the only ultimate solution

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will be special Courts for motoring offences, where such offences, when convictions take place, will be dealt with adequately, and above all, as the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil says, uniformly—that is the essence of it.
Another general recommendation I am glad to see is with regard to the speed limit. The speed limit, there is no doubt, has done a great deal of good, but I myself feel quite confident—and I think most of your Lordships who have watched it up and down the country, probably feel much the same—that somewhere about 60 or 70 per cent. of motorists now break the speed limit. What it has done has been to put an end to the old murderous driving at speeds of sixty or seventy miles an hour. That, in built-up areas, has virtually disappeared. But something like 65 per cent. of motorists do drive up to thirty-five and forty miles per hour in built-up areas, when they have first assured themselves that there is no "speed-cop" at their heels. It is a fact—I have a diagram here illustrating it, published by the Transport Committee of the City of Edinburgh—that the difference between driving at thirty miles an hour (that is, legally) and forty miles an hour is a difference represented by the fact that it takes you fifty feet longer to pull up in case of emergency. That fifty feet may well represent the life of a child, and that, I think, is the relevance of the fact to this debate this afternoon. I hope that His Majesty's Government will continue to try to find some way of encouraging local authorities to enforce the speed limit more effectively than they are doing at present. They do not seem to like "speed-cops," as they are vulgarly called, and once more I find myself being reluctantly driven to the conclusion that the more drastic proposal of the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, which he moved as an Amendment to the Road Traffic Bill last year, that is, the compulsory enforcement of the carrying of a speed indicator, is the only ultimate and effective solution.
Your Lordships have been reminded by two noble Lords this afternoon that the law does actually require children who live, I think it is less than three miles from their schools, to walk to school along these high roads, these speedways which carry no footpaths. As an example of the deterioration of our standards in this matter of human life, may I ask your
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Lordships to imagine what would have been the public outcry if, when compulsory attendance was first enforced by law, the children had been required to go to school along the railway tracks? Imagine the outcry! Politically an impossible thing to suggest, and yet far more safe than to go along the road to-day! The railway train goes along a predictable, regular track, and it is in reliable hands. The motor car goes along an irregular, unpredictable track, at the mercy of temperament and road surface, and, it may be, in the hands of a young gentleman who has just drunk three cocktails and is trying out a car which its makers advertise as possessing a cruising speed of seventy miles an hour. And those are the roads along which children are asked to go to school on foot, without footpaths. I do suggest to His Majesty's Government that the provision of more footpaths on the 70 per cent. of the high roads which do not possess them is an absolutely urgent necessity.
And if I may finally give three suggestions within the narrower sphere—that is, what I call palliatives, the measures which apply only to school children, which may do some good to school children, though, as I have suggested, what I believe is really necessary is the assault on the problem on the whole—firstly, there is this question of escorts. In the City in which I live—Oxford—there is a reasonably effective method which is referred to, I am glad to see in this Report, by which an adult escort is retained, who comes out in the middle of the road with a pole on which are the words "Stop! Children crossing." That, at any rate, is effective just at the point where the children cross the road to go to school. But I think it is obvious that, as the principle of the central school is developed, and as, therefore, the elder child is separated from the younger child, no longer going to the same school, the problem of escorting the young children to school will become increasingly serious. The elder children cannot do this, and the policemen, I suppose, cannot be spared, though that would be the most satisfactory method. I believe that in Croydon and Manchester the pedestrian-operated crossing signal has worked very well, and has not been abused by children, and I believe that in some areas it would be possible to establish rotas of parents who would take their turns in escorting, on a

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more organised basis than they do, the children of their neighbours to school.
Secondly, one very small point, but one which is, I think, worth mentioning. I believe that some of the local education authorities are actually encouraging children attending their schools to do so on bicycles. It is cheaper for them than providing motor omnibuses, and I believe that they either sell them cheap or even give them to the children. All I wish to suggest is that this ought to be a matter for the parent to decide. There should be no pressure whatever by a local education authority to encourage a child to bicycle along high roads of the nature which I have described. The parent knows the temperament of the child and the local conditions and whether or not it is safe; and I suggest that the local authority should not put on any pressure in that direction. I hope that, as the school expansion goes on, the siting of schools may be deliberately controlled, so that they are not placed, as so many are at present, at danger points. We cannot change the present sites, but at any rate we can see that the future sites are better placed.
And, lastly, one suggestion to the noble Earl who represents the Ministry of Transport. If he agrees with what I am sure is the sense of your Lordships' House, that this is really an urgent moral problem, might it not be desirable for the Ministry of Transport for a short period, say the next six months or the next year, to take steps to be represented at every inquest on a child under fourteen, so that it may at first hand form its own impressions of the problem? It might even be desirable for the Ministry to make its own inquiries as is already done in the case of railway accidents. At any rate, I suggest it might be desirable for the Ministry to make that special inquiry in order to acquaint itself fully with the nature of this problem. I hope that the noble Earl who will reply, even though ho cannot speak for the Ministry of Transport and is not really responsible for the dimensions of this problem in any sense, will be able to assure us that the Government as a whole are determined to take this question seriously and to take every possible step to meet it.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I shall
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not detain your Lordships more than a minute or two because there is other business on the Paper still to be dealt with, but I should like to call attention to one particular matter. In the first place, I was glad to hear the noble Lord who has just spoken advocating the desirability of instituting special Courts. I have always felt that that was really the only way in which you could properly deal with this matter, but the last time I made the suggestion my noble friend Lord Cecil thought it would not be possible to carry it out. The noble Lord who spoke last told us that in Chicago, by making imprisonment the penalty, a great improvement had been effected in the number of accidents occurring in that city. No doubt if similar drastic steps were taken in this country an approximately equal improvement might take place, but to inflict imprisonment is a very severe measure, and undoubtedly it would raise an outcry in this country. I do not think our people would stand the infliction of such a penalty with as much equanimity as appears to have been the case in Chicago.
There is another means which has not really been utilised sufficiently and that relates to endorsement and suspension. One point in regard to suspension and endorsement is this, that at present the bench which has suspended a man's licence for careless driving or whatever it may be, is allowed to revoke that suspension after a certain time. For instance, if a man is suspended for six months, and he appeals for a reduction of this suspension to the petty sessional bench after six weeks or two months, this is what happens, as I know from experience. The man comes before the bench and says: "I am out of work; I have a wife and six children; my employer is ready to give me a job again; I have had my lesson, and I shall not do this sort of thing again." The employer speaks for him too, and says he is very sorry but if the man does not get his licence back he will have to give the job to another man. That is what is put to the bench and, being soft-hearted people, they very likely agree to the request and give the man back his licence.
But as your Lordships are aware, the same bench does not sit on every occasion. You may get a totally different set of magistrates sitting on the bench to which the appeal is made, compared with

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the bench which made the conviction. That amounts to an appeal from one court, which has heard all the evidence and given judgment, to a second court which has not heard any evidence and yet reverses the judgment of the first. I consider that is a very unsuitable method of carrying on business. I submit there ought to be a proper hearing of the case again. Either it ought to go to Quarter Sessions—though I hardly think that is necessary—or it ought to come before the petty sessional bench which should hear evidence again before granting the appeal. But just to allow the case to come before the bench in this way and have the judgment of the first court reversed without hearing any evidence, is, I think, a very casual way of doing things, with the result that this suspension is not so serious a form of punishment as it perhaps ought to be. I think that is a matter which requires very careful consideration by His Majesty's Government.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (EARL DE LA WARE): My Lords, it is quite clear that the House and the Government are under a great debt of gratitude to the right reverend Prelate for bringing up this most vital—I use the word in a literal sense—and important problem. There are some points which have been mentioned to-day that are not strictly relevant to the Question which the right reverend Prelate has put on the Order Paper. One of the advantages of your Lordships' House is that it has very few rules of order, though perhaps that is a greater advantage to the House generally than to the unfortunate Minister who has to try and reply to the debate.
I could not help regretting some of the points that were made by the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, who made the discussion of a Report of a Committee appointed by His Majesty's Government as an earnest of their interest in this subject the occasion for a most violent attack on the Government for doing nothing whatsoever. Admittedly, at the end of three or four years of hard work, there is a vast amount of the problem still to be solved, but nevertheless the Government have reduced the number of fatal accidents. The noble Viscount talked with contempt of the figures, but they show a reduction of something over
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12 per cent., and that during a period when there has been an increase in the number of cars on the road amounting to between 10 per cent. and 15 per cent. To suggest that we have done nothing is totally untrue and grossly unfair. I am sorry the point has been raised in this way, because I did not want to deal with that side of the matter at all. But in saying that 12 per cent. fewer have been killed than in the past, I do not want for a moment to be driven into the position of saying that the mere fact that fewer people are being killed in any way makes the position satisfactory. That is very far from the attitude of His Majesty's Government.
Perhaps I might now turn to the Question which is actually before the House. The reason why I am answering this Question and not the representative of the Ministry of Transport is that this Committee was, in conjunction with the Minister of Transport, first appointed by my noble friend Lord Halifax when he was President of the Board of Education, and the Report deals specifically with the question as it relates to children. It was recognised in that Report, as indeed it was recognised from the beginning by my noble friend who appointed the Committee, that there are questions connected with children that inevitably bear on the whole problem of road deaths and injuries. The right reverend Prelate gave your Lordships certain figures. In every case those figures are absolutely accurate, and in no way did he exaggerate the appalling gravity of the situation. For what it is worth I can tell the right reverend Prelate that last year the figures showed a reduction of just over 100, bringing the total down to 1,146. Again I do not think those figures can afford us any degree of satisfaction with the situation. The only interest of the reduction is that the figures give us some slight indication of the efficiency of the methods by which we are attempting to deal with this problem, and whether those methods are in any way satisfactory or are related to the facts and needs of the situation. Although a reduction has been brought about, it is clear that what has been done in the past is not satisfactory and is not sufficient.
Therefore we turn to the Report which is now before your Lordships and the country and look at its recommendations.

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First of all we have the general question of the more drastic treatment of motorists. I think that noble Lords generally have shown a very clear appreciation of the fact that there are people on the roads at the moment who simply cannot be treated as responsible people. This matter has been before His Majesty's Government before, and it must continue to be before them. The question I am referring to is whether the treatment that is at present meted out, not by His Majesty's Government but by the Courts in the country, is sufficiently severe, and whether the machinery of the particular Courts is the most suitable for dealing with this problem. That is a question which must be considered by the Government when they review the matter as a whole and not merely the aspects of it which are dealt with in this particular Report.
The noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, and I think the right reverend Prelate also, made the point that certain people say and think that in many cases it is the children's fault. As the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, said, that is an utterly ridiculous remark. We know perfectly well what children are. The right reverend Prelate used the word "impulsive" in reference to children. Which of your Lordships does not want the children of England to be impulsive? Of course they are impulsive, and we all hope that they will continue to be so. But, for that reason I was very glad that tremendous stress was placed on the importance of the proper and adequate provision of playgrounds. There is no doubt that a great number of children receive their injuries while playing in the streets. Where else can many of them play at present? A good deal has been done quite lately to increase the number of playgrounds, and I can tell your Lordships that my right honourable friend, the President of the Board of Education, has notified local authorities, particularly in congested areas, that he is prepared to give very special consideration in the matter of assisting them to make proper provision of playgrounds.
Then there is the question of existing playgrounds, as to whether they are fully used, and whether it might be possible, as has been done in some areas, to keep the playgrounds open in the evenings. There is also the general question of play centres in the existing playgrounds
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which, I think, demands very careful consideration. There is further the question of whether we cannot increase the actual protection to children in the neighbourhood of schools. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Elton, who mentioned the new power that has been given by local authorities to adults to carry a notice with the words "Stop! Children crossing" and to operate that notice with the local authorities behind them. In addition to that there is the question of barriers along the side of footpaths. Again, my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Education has notified authorities that he is prepared to consider special assistance for them.
One noble Lord mentioned the question of bicycles. It may be rather a trivial matter, but undoubtedly some accidents are caused as the result of bicycles being in a defective condition. Therefore steps are being taken to see that bicycles are kept in proper order, and are subjected to overhaul. Those are comparatively small points, I know. The noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, apparently has not much faith in the power of adults to impress the importance of this problem on the children themselves, but I do not think that is quite borne out by the experience that we have already had in certain areas where teachers and authorities and parents have acted in this matter. I think some good has been done in that way. We are taking every step possible to bring this question to the notice of teachers, parents and authorities. No fewer than 55,000 copies of this Report have already been circulated free—50,000 to teachers, and the other 5,000 to chief constables and highway authorities.
I think the right reverend Prelate also asked what was being done with regard to the setting up of children's safety committees. The Report is only just out but already local authorities have been circularised by the Minister of Transport. I do not think any committees have actually been set up, but the setting up of a great number is at present under discussion between the county councils and the local authorities, and steps are being taken to encourage local authorities to do that. I can also tell your Lordships that the County Councils' Association has already officially taken the matter up, and is urging all its constituent bodies to adopt

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the Report, One particularly interesting and valuable thing about these committees which gives me very great pleasure is their constitution. It is quite natural that highway authorities, the education authorities, the police and the teachers should be represented, but in addition to that it is proposed that those concerned with parks and open spaces should also be represented, and in my own view those people will be an important and valuable addition to the composition of these safety committees.
There is only one more point I would mention. If your Lordships have the Report and will turn to page 36 you will see a diagram showing the time of day at which road accidents take place. There are approximately three accident peaks. One is between the hours of eight and nine, another between twelve and two, and a third between four and five. It is pretty high until seven o'clock. It is quite clear that the highest incidence of accidents is between twelve o'clock and one o'clock and between four o'clock and five o'clock. In both cases the figure is thirty-nine. Those are the times when children come bursting out of school on to the streets. It is very high at mid-day, and I am rather surprised therefore not to find in the Report any suggestion of the importance of local authorities endeavouring to encourage children to stay at school by providing canteens for mid-day meals. In the thirteen day period you have thirty-nine children killed during the dinner hour. That teems to me a very relevant point, and one which most certainly should be considered and will be considered by my Department.
I think I have covered the main points raised during this debate. This is a problem which no one in this country, not even the Government—although I know my noble friend Viscount Cecil suspects us of it—can for a moment think of with complacency. It is a problem that has got to be tackled. It is a problem that has been tackled and is being tackled, but I want to give an assurance that if there are any further suggestions which your Lordships or anyone else can make, His Majesty's Government will consider them, not merely in the spirit of the old-fashioned Governmental consideration, but with a real intention and desire to find if there is, in fact, anything
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more that can be done to deal with what has properly been described as the appalling slaughter on the roads.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl for his reply, not only because of the information he has given, but because he has made it plain that the Government do regard the problem as an important one. The figures he has given us show that there has been some reduction in the numbers of children killed on the roads, but, as he himself said, the reduction is so small that we cannot regard it with much satisfaction. There are still 1,100 children killed year by year on the roads. I hope that the Government will try every kind of experiment to reduce this appalling, useless and pathetic slaughter of children on the roads. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

MALTA DEFENCES.
LORD STRICKLAND LORD STRICKLAND had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask whether His Majesty's Government are prepared to cancel all undertakings restricting, in case of war, the use of poison gas and other weapons useful in self-defence and counter-attack; whether the education of the Air Force against the use of certain weapons will be altered; and whether it is realised that the efficient equipment of Malta as a point from which counter-attack in self-defence might be made irresistible, has been fully realised as the best safeguard of peace, and to call attention to British interests in the Mediterranean; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, life in Malta has been much closer to the dangers of war than in this country; so much so, that last summer it was in contemplation that the civil population should be evacuated and measures were actually begun for that evacuation. We are there in constant contact with rooms in houses and offices protected against gas from the air. Rehearsals and mock air-raids are periodical. Therefore I trust your Lordships will realise that, under that stress of thought, more has been done to work out what may happen in case of war and opinion has been formulated in advance of public opinion

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in this country. That, I think, deserves the consideration of your Lordships' House. I will endeavour to submit my arguments at this late hour as briefly as possible. Air-minded nations, and perhaps the majority of English people, have come to the conclusion that conventions against the use of poison gas and other lethal weapons will not be observed in future in war. This opinion is not formed merely because of regrettable incidents in Ethiopia. In Morocco, when the ink was hardly dry on the conventions signed in Geneva, the liquid which when it evaporates produces mustard gas was used around the wells of the Riff tribes to prevent the watering of their stock and to contaminate the water supply of the civil population. It ended rapidly the war that had lasted more than a century.
There is a decided opinion amongst the most educated and the most mercifully inclined that there should be no restriction as to what should be done in self-defence in case of war. The democratically governed nations will certainly not in future be aggressors. Their armament is no menace to anybody because it is for self-defence in case of aggression. The aggressor will not enter into war except with the pre-determination of using every and any means. It is obvious to anybody that unless the defence use the same means, the aggressor will be rapidly and certainly victorious. Let us remember the attitude towards the use of submarines at the beginning of the Great War. Public opinion was so formulated against the treacherous character of submarine warfare that it was determined not to follow that treacherous example, but that noble attitude, that Christian and altruistic attitude, could not last. We either had to be defeated, to have our food supply entirely cut off, or the submarine had to meet the submarine.
With regard to air warfare, I put it to His Majesty's Government that we cannot avoid realising that that is the position. The worst weapons now existing, the most treacherous, the most poisonous, will have to be adopted in self-defence if there is to be any self-defence, and they will have to be used for surprise in the greatest possible quantity and without restriction as to those against whom they are to be aimed. That is the opinion formed by the air-minded
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nations other, perhaps, than this country, but it is also the opinion of thinkers in this country. The real question before His Majesty's Government is whether we are by propaganda to enlighten, to open the minds of people in this country as to that which is inevitable.
It was recently thought expedient that Malta should be evacuated, face to face with the concentration within a few miles on opposite shores of tens of thousands of picked troops, when submarines were numerous in the waters around—though perhaps not so numerous as was depicted in the speech of a former naval Commander-in-Chief when he said that in his time they were observed on one occasion bobbing about amongst the ships like corks. Those conditions are changed. His Majesty's Government have since last summer seriously done their duty to the Empire and to their pledges to the population of Malta in arming with the greatest rapidity. I feel confident that that policy of His Majesty's Government has been a success and that at the present time Malta, if not impregnable, is as close to the position in which our greatest fortress should be as the means at present available allow.
The arguments put forward by those persons who think—and there have been people in authority in Malta who have so thought—that Malta could not be defended from the air, have also changed entirely in these twelve months. Propinquity of the concentration of possible hostile Air Forces and therefore the ease of attack was the main argument for the evacuation of the civil population and the abandonment of Malta, to be reconquered after a long war. Since then, the radius of action of aircraft has so increased that London is no more immune by reason of distance from air attack than Malta. Moreover, we know that more than one of the Great Powers has organised a section of its Air Force on the basis that a certain number of selected and specially-trained pilots are to go forth and not endeavour to come back; to do what their duty may be with the knowledge that their lives are to be forfeited. I do not know what they would be called in an Asiatic language, but in European language they are called piloti delta morte—pilots who are going to their death. That doubles the radius

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of action of a certain number of aircraft, and that diminishes the arguments in favour of holding that Malta is less defensible than other centres.
As to Cyprus being more defensible, that theory also is disappearing in view of the rapid and ever-increasing efficiency of aircraft. The expense of constructing harbours in Cyprus and defending them has been estimated at £20,000,000 sterling. Whatever the cost may be it will be so great as to diminish the money that should be spent on other and more efficient forms of defence, as for instance aircraft carriers, which could do all that could be expected from Cyprus, apart from many other localities which are strategically more important from time to time. The proximity of Malta to centres of hostile aircraft is also suffered by Cyprus in the concentration of aircraft in neighbouring islands, not far enough in these days to make any appreciable difference in the relative distance of hostile bases from Cyprus and from Malta.
I wish to ask His Majesty's Government to consider that any expenditure on shifting from Malta the principal base of defence and of British power in the Mediterranean could be better spent in Malta. No use could be hoped from bases in Cyprus and Haifa unless aircraft can be operated from Malta and supplies can be brought there with impunity backwards and forwards. Without Malta those bases would very soon be starved out and obliterated. It would be putting the cart before the horse and would be of no advantage. On the other hand, at the time when professional opinion in Malta held the view that the Island could not be defended from the air and therefore should be abandoned, so that it was neglected and its defences were in a most deplorable condition, the best brains in His Majesty's service were of the opinion that the defence of Malta was merely a matter of money, and not much money in proportion to the advantages to be gained.
I put it to His Majesty's Government, and I hope to have the support of your Lordships' House for the view, that Malta could be made so strong in defence by counter-attack that there would be no war. It is generally acknowledged that the only defence worth considering against air attack from any country and by any country is a counter-attack. The
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difficulty and the anxiety of the counter-attack is whether it will be possible to deliver it, and whether it will not be destroyed before it starts. In Malta there are conditions under which counter-attack can be so safely made and with such certain impunity that it will be made and can be made, not only at the beginning of a war but after the war has been going on for a considerable period, notwithstanding any concentration of adverse forces, that I think the organisation would be so deterrent to any Mediterranean Power—and that is the one place when there is danger at present—that there would be no war in the Mediterranean, and therefore no war in Europe in our time.
Malta is itself a rock of which the stone is of a porous character, soft and easily quarried, and we have a disused railway station at Valetta which is an enormous arch carved out of the rock. In Malta it is quite feasible, at small expense, to have underground hangars for aircraft cut in the face of the rock, and aircraft could be discharged not merely by slipways but even from down at the water's edge. That is all in favour of the organisation of a, certain possibility of counter-attack in self defence by air. What will happen in Malta, and everywhere at an outbreak of war will be attacks devised to convert aerodromes into a collection of craters and dust heaps, so as to make them impossible for the purpose of landings. Therefore a counter-attack which has to start from a land aerodrome may be rendered impossible by the adoption of those tactics even before the declaration of war.
Aerodromes for safe counter-attack must be so selected as to offer the possibility of alighting on the water, and taking off from the water. It may well be said that perhaps there is a slight diminution in the velocity when taking off from the water, as compared with taking off from the land, but that I venture to doubt. It is a matter to be dealt with by future developments. The bombers, however, who take off from the water have always the hope of alighting on the water when they return. It is not a matter of a forlorn hope. The record of forlorn hopes in the history of the English forces, naval, military and air, is a record of a series of brave deeds, but they have been performed with the hope

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of coining back victorious—undoubtedly against heavy odds, but the hope of return has always been there, and hope must always be kept there in a Christian country. If we organise for a counterattack that is to return to the water, flying boats would not only be able to land near their homes, but on a vast expanse of water, either under the control of their own Government or neutral. Therefore the organisation of counter-attack from the water should be cultivated, in order to give our air pilots a much greater chance of doing brave deeds, and being able to do them not once but several times.
In Malta Providence has provided a bay that can be closed at very moderate expense—less than the cost of a second-class cruiser. Taking off from the water has only one difficulty—the water must be sheltered to a certain extent against a rough sea—and therefore the construction of breakwaters for the purpose of making the taking-off easy or practical, is the one difficulty to be overcome in the organisation in Malta, and that very soon, of such a force for defensive counter-attacks. It has been said in another debate that flying boats on the water were just as open to attack as aircraft on land. That answer did not satisfy me, because I never suggested that the bombers should sit on the water like wild ducks asleep. My suggestion is that they should be in a hangar, so that, as can be easily effected at Malta, flying boats would be able to go off at half a minute's notice. The facility for providing hangars in hidden localities is absolutely unique in Malta. The land aeroplanes might be an adjunct to the bombers which take off from the water, but they will find it very difficult to operate, because in heavy and difficult country such as exists in Malta it is made very difficult for bombers to land with safety, except on aerodromes of large size.
In his maiden speech the present Minister for Air informed your Lordships' House that the opinion of the Government was not in favour of extending and relying upon flying boats in Malta, but that they had decided to help the construction of an aerodrome for aeroplanes for civil aviation—that is for aircraft to alight upon the land. That policy has been carried out with rapidity and efficiency; but I wish to
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congratulate Lord Strabolgi upon having obtained in the recent debate on the Air Navigation Bill an admission on the part of the Air Minister that his opinion had changed, and that he was now aware of the superior advantages possessed by the flying boat. That was an achievement and a consolation. The aerodrome being built now for aircraft which are to alight on the solid ground is a great additional asset to the defence of Malta, but it is more so to the development of civil aviation. Nevertheless, the construction of breakwaters to enclose a most inviting expanse of water most suitable for the purpose would be a much greater achievement, it would produce much more value for the money. And it is an achievement which would satisfy not only those who want defence—defence of the strongest description—but also of those who believe in the teaching of Holy Scripture that "When a strong man keepeth his house there is peace therein" (there are various interpretations of that text). But no one can be strong to-day unless he is ready to use the strongest weapons. Notwithstanding all that, the expenditure of money on the construction of breakwaters to make that unique bay, in the words of the late Lord Thomson, the "Clapham Junction of the air," would have a value which would be always increasing commercially. The air traffic of the old world must and will centre there. It will be remunerative, and begin producing interest before it is finished. That cannot be said of a cruiser, which does not produce any interest, and which, in perhaps ten years, has to be scrapped.
Now I come to the last point I have to make. These debates about the provision of underground hangars have been going on since ten years ago in another place, and have taken place every year in this House, but have met with very little encouragement. But times have changed. What was perhaps politely smiled at a few months ago is now realised as a necessity. I know that the best experts now fully realise that it is an urgent necessity to have these breakwaters and to construct these underground hangars in places which give easy access to sheltered water for alighting in. Without saying anything more as to the change in technical opinion, I wish to offer a suggestion from the point of view of administration. The Malta (Letters Patent) Bill has received His Majesty's.

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Assent. There can be now no question as to the validity of Ordinances that may have been passed, whether fully justified as dealing with reserved matters or otherwise, and the time has come for an Ordinance to be enacted appropriating the unearned increment for say, half a mile around the South-East bay of Malta. Such an Ordinance should make that unearned increment subject to an option, so that the Government could acquire it at any time in the next few years at a certain number of years' purchase, and prevent the enormous increase of value immediately these works are begun going into the pockets of private landlords. I am speaking against my own class, but that unearned increment, created by English money and by the enterprise of the Defence Departments, should remain for the benefit of the Empire and of Malta, where enormous sums will have been spent in giving work. An Ordinance of that description would greatly facilitate future calculations, future estimates and future operations, and need create no real grievance. It is only a question of deciding on the number of years' purchase—thirty-three or thirty-five would be very near the limit—and saving the trouble of litigation.
I will say no more on this occasion in view of the lateness of the hour, but the question is a great deal too important not to be taken most seriously by His Majesty's Government. I hope it will receive the support, and the growing support, of members of the House, and that the first step will be the diplomatic setting aside of all restrictions which prevent this country from using every means and every weapon in self-defence in conjunction with the democratic countries, who will only act in self-defence. Otherwise we are finished, and finished quickly, in the next war. I beg to move.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, this is a very late hour to have started a great defence debate.
LORD STRICKLAND: I hope the noble Lord will propose the adjournment.
LORD STRABOLGI: But on this occasion I hope His Majesty's Government will give the noble Lord no consolation or encouragement whatsoever, as far as regards the main part of his Motion. I am not going to discuss the strategical position at Malta at all. With regard to
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the noble Lord's proposal to denounce the Convention for the prohibition of poison gas warfare I want to speak on behalf of the Labour Party in this House and to say that we are utterly opposed to that proposal. Indeed, we feel that the Government have been most lax and most indolent in not taking more vigorous steps against the Italian Government for their disgraceful breaking of their signed treaties in Abyssinia. We do not at all despair of the possibility of bringing about a great measure of disarmament by agreement when the present mad fever has subsided. There is an absurd competition in armaments going on at present, but it cannot continue indefinitely because it will break the taxpayers' backs, and if we can get through this period without the danger of war materialising then there may be a great revulsion, and we can bring about a great measure of disarmament by agreement. Indeed, if we had not had the economic crisis between 1929 and 1931, which provided the opportunity to destroy the late Labour Government, and if the late Mr. Arthur Henderson had been allowed to continue his work, I believe we might have got a great measure of agreement with regard to disarmament, and had it carried out. We believe also that bound up with disarmament there must be a complete abolition of military aircraft—perfectly practicable—and a system of international inspection.
Many of the rules of war are of very ancient origin, and they have been wonderfully well kept. At sea we had certain recognised rules of warfare which, up to the outbreak of the last War, were maintained by the seamen of all nationalities. The Germans broke them by sinking vessels without the proper chivalrous conduct that had always been recognised, and what was the result? The United States came into the War and the Germans were completely defeated, whereas they might otherwise have managed to pull through with a stalemate. If the Germans had not broken their word and invaded Belgium I do not believe that this country would have been brought into the war, at least in more than a half hearted way. But we need not despair, because of the German misconduct in the late War and Italian misconduct on land in Abyssinia, of the rules of war being maintained and recognised, and I hope His Majesty's Government

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will make it perfectly clear in their reply that they do not countenance the breach by the Italians of the Convention with regard to poison gas and other breaches of the rules of warfare, and that they are firmly determined to maintain, and strengthen if possible, the rules of war. And I hope also that they will strongly support the abolition of war altogether, because if war breaks out you cannot make it gentlemanly. At the same time, there are certain barbarities you can deal with, and I hope that His Majesty's Government will show no weakness in that direction.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH): My Lords, I do not intend to enter into a somewhat academic discussion with the noble Lord opposite as to what might have happened if the economic crisis of 1931 had not taken place and the Labour Government had remained in office. Personally I shudder to contemplate what might have been the result in such a contingency. I want to confine myself to the issues which the noble Lord, Lord Strickland, has raised in his Question on the Paper and also in the discussion this afternoon. There is one point in regard to which I can certainly reassure the noble Lord opposite. The noble Lord, Lord Strickland, has suggested that the Government should cancel all its undertakings, restricting in the case of war the use of poison gas and other weapons of that description, which His Majesty's Government have entered into in various ways. I can tell him quite categorically that the Government are not prepared to adopt a policy of that kind. This country was a signatory of the Gas Protocol of 1925 which definitely prohibits the use of poison gas or other gases, and I wish to tell him quite categorically that His Majesty's Government have no intention of in any way trying to shelve the undertakings and the obligations which rest upon them in connection with that Protocol.
The use of poison gas by Italy during the war in Abyssinia was generally deplored, and deplored no less by His Majesty's Government than by any other Government or any other section of people throughout the world. We have expressed our views in regard to that matter times without number, and I do not think any further
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statement on my part is necessary; but I do want to say that if His Majesty's Government were to make any kind of suggestion that gas warfare should in future be legalised, I feel quite certain there would be widespread indignation on the part of the great majority of the people in this country and, indeed throughout the world. The Government intend strongly to support the maintenance of this Convention. That is our attitude. We want to do everything we can to support the Convention, not only because of the undertakings we have entered into, but because we believe the implementing of that Convention is in the fundamental interest of humanity. I want to add, as a corollary to that, that if any country were to break the provisions of that Convention, they would quite obviously cease to be entitled to rely on its benefits. I mean that if they broke the provisions of that Convention it is quite clear they would have to take the consequences.
But all this does not mean that the armed forces are not receiving instruction in defence against gas warfare. On the contrary they are most certainly doing so. I want to point out that the British ratification of the Gas Protocol, which took place in 1930, expressed a reservation to this effect, that the Protocol was only binding upon them so long as an enemy respected the prohibitions contained in it, and that reservation was made by the French Government as well, and by the Governments of many other countries. I would point out that the use of gas in Abyssinia during the last few months does not necessarily mean that the ban on the use of gas is likely to be disregarded in a war between western European nations. After all, in a case of that kind all parties to such a conflict would have at their disposal means of retaliation, and in my view this possibility of retaliation is the most cogent safeguard that we have for the observance of the terms of the Protocol.
Passing on to another portion of the noble Lord's Motion—that is, the efficient equipment of Malta with a view to its own defence and to what he terms "counter-attack," I can only draw his attention to the answer which was given in another place by the First Lord of the Admiralty not long ago. That answer was to the effect that we have no intention whatever of evacuating

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Malta, and we shall certainly take every practical means to make its defence secure against any possible attack. That seems to me to be a very unequivocal statement.
LORD STRICKLAND: Unequivocal, but insufficient for defence.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: At any rate, I do not think I can do better than reiterate that statement on this occasion. Furthermore, I can say that the policy adumbrated so clearly in that statement is being implemented by His Majesty's Government. So far as the air defences are concerned, the noble Lord has alluded to the fact that we are building a second aerodrome, which is estimated to cost some £28,000. The work upon it was started last autumn, and it is expected that the aerodrome will be completed some time this year. As the noble Lord has said, the existence of this additional aerodrome will undoubtedly very greatly facilitate the reinforcement of the garrison in Malta at short notice. In addition to that, work is progressing in the direction of a general reconditioning of the military defences in the Island, first of all, with the object of providing adequate modern equipment for training, and secondly, in order to replace other equipment which is gradually becoming obsolescent. I want to point out further that this is being done in the normal course of the policy of bringing our overseas garrisons up to the necessary standard. Further than that, the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineer garrisons are in the course of being increased. They are naturally those who actually man the defences of the Island, and if your Lordships have studied the Estimates for this year you will have seen an item of about £14,000 which is to be spent in the course of the year on accommodation for the increase in the garrison and for storage accommodation.
I was a little bit puzzled when I read the Motion on the Paper as to what exactly the noble Lord meant by "irresistible counter-attack" in self-defence; but it has become clear during the course of the discussion that what he alluded to was a matter that he has mentioned on a number of occasions before in your Lordships' House—namely, the provision of a large force of flying boats in Malta in conjunction with underground hangars. I can only say that this
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is a problem which has been investigated with the very greatest care by those who are competent to do so. I can assure the noble Lord that it is not a matter which has not been given sufficient attention. The matter has been investigated, but I can only tell him this afternoon that the Secretary of State for Air has not departed from the view which I expressed on his behalf I think almost exactly a year ago in this House, and that is to the effect that his technical advisers—and there are no more competent technical advisers in the country available—could not for a single moment agree with the noble Lord that the advantage would lie with flying boats as compared with land-based aircraft for the defence of the Island against air attack.
I do not intend to enter into an argument with the noble Lord over technical details. I do not think that we are either of us competent to do so, but I want to assure him once again that this is a matter which has received the very closest attention of the appropriate authorities, and they have definitely come to the conclusion that the best means of defence against air attack in Malta lies with land-based aircraft rather than with flying boats.
LORD STRICKLAND: My Lords, the noble Earl who has just sat down made reference to proposals to enclose the bay in the South-East of Malta where aircraft could take off in any weather if breakwaters are provided. The noble Earl in reference to that proposition said that he was repeating the reply that was given last year—repeating what has been said by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, in his maiden speech in this House. But since then the whole strategic atmosphere has changed. Then the policy was to evacuate and abandon Malta because it was considered indefensible. Now the policy is to defend Malta at all costs because the First Lord of the Admiralty, as quoted by the noble Earl, has announced in another place that it cannot be abandoned, and that Malta will be retained at any cost. The fundamental principle of strategy having changed I should have thought that the reply of the noble Earl would also have been accordingly changed—
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I do not accept what the noble Lord says.
LORD STRICKLAND: I ask your Lordships' House to accept it, and I hope

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public opinion will accept it soon. As to the value of technical advice, may I say that technical advice given to-day and to-morrow must in the changed circumstances be different from the technical advice given a year ago. For one thing the reliance on flying boats has changed, and the speed of all aircraft has rapidly increased. The hypothesis for the report of experts is different. On the point that His Majesty's Government will also be inflexible in adhering to conventions for the non-use of poison gas, that is to be considered with new facts exactly on the same basis; inasmuch as more lethal weapons are daily developed. For instance, high explosives have become more destructive than gas, and other liquids have been invented and more poisonous gas in particular. On that point the noble Earl has given in reply a most valuable admission of which the publicity is worth a good deal more to this country and to the safety of this Empire than any propaganda. It is well worth the three quarters of an hour of this debate. The noble Earl has admitted possible exceptions and has informed your Lordships' House and enlightened our people on the fact—which, after all, is a psychological truism—that if in war nations break these anti-gas conventions then the conventions may be broken against them in self-defence: the aggressor will no longer be immune. Who, in studying the question in the light of human nature, is not perfectly certain that there are nations that may be aggressors and break these conventions? They must, if their mentality makes them aggressors, leave no stone unturned to win.
Their psychology is different from ours, and that is my main point. We are a religious nation, perhaps the most religious nation in the world. We keep our promises. Our trade and wealth are built up upon our keeping our pacts. We are trained to act as if our promises are bonds. Others are not or may not be in future. That is where the rub comes in, and that is where propaganda is necessary as to limitation of promises. The noble Earl says that if other people use poison gas we may perhaps do the same. Let us prepare for its use under such possibilities. Let us have thousands of containers of poisonous liquids in Malta. Let us have a factory for making poison gas under ground in Malta. Let
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it be known that we will use it if we know that poison gas is to be used against us. Let it be known that it is there as a deterrent against aggression, and that, if there is any breach of the present Convention, there may and can and will be effective counter action.
NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL STANHOPE): The noble Lord is really not, under the Rules of the House, allowed to make another long speech in withdrawing the Motion. It is not customary in your Lordships' House to do so, although he has done it on more than one occasion. It is contrary to the procedure of this House.
LORD STRICKLAND: My Lords, I will certainly conform by very quickly bringing the reply to an end, although I have heard to-day (from the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr) that there are no laws of order in this House. Our customs are elastic, and I submit that this is an occasion that justifies a certain amount of latitude. Perhaps in reply I may be allowed to add one reference to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, in regard to restraints at sea; he doubtless alluded to the Declaration of Paris. With reference to that Declaration the great Prime Minister, Lord Salisbury, recorded a pronouncement that adhesion to that Declaration was a great mistake. I hope that authority will be referred to as a parallel and that it will be decided that adhesion to the Convention referred to in this Motion will be modified, as being equally mistaken. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

HEALTH RESORTS AND WATERING PLACES BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: My Lords, this is a very harmless and necessary Bill which puts the power of local authorities to advertise on a more businesslike and just basis. I understand it has the support of the Government and I beg to move that it be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Mount Temple.)
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I should like to say a word about this

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Bill. I had not seen it until a few moments ago, and I have not had time to compare it with the local Acts on which I think it is based. I think there is one point which perhaps will have to be taken into consideration. There has been a Bill before your Lordships' House dealing with a resort on the coast near Edinburgh. It was pointed out that this resort, although it was administered under a county council, was of an urban character. I should think probably something will have to be done to meet that point. There is also the point that the council of any borough or urban district may combine with any other local authority. On that I think it ought to be made clear that a rural district, although it cannot itself advertise, may combine with another local authority. Then I would like to ask the noble Viscount who will speak for the Government, if this Bill is to be incorporated in the Public Health Act. The two measures seem to be of the same nature. At the time of the passing of the Local Government Act, 1933, certain other measures dealt with at the same time were incorporated, and I would like to ask whether that is to be done on this occasion.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, the Government are in sympathy with the objects of this Bill. For some time representations have been made that the time has come for modernising the Health Resorts and Watering Places Act of 1921, which is the only Statute under which local authorities have any power to advertise amenities. The Government feel that some of the restrictions in that Act might be relaxed. The real sponsors of the Bill are the Association of Health and Pleasure Resorts, and the Association have been in consultation with the Ministry of Health with regard to the proposals in the present Bill, In regard to the point raised by the noble Earl, the Chairman of Committees, about Midlothian, I am advised that in order to ensure the proper application of the Bill to Scotland certain Amendments will be necessary. We propose that those Amendments should be considered when the Bill is in Committee. I did not know that there was any doubt about the wording of Clause 1, which enables the council of a borough or urban district to combine with any other local authority,
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organisation, company or person, but if there is any doubt I will certainly have the matter looked into, and will make further comments at the next stage of the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FINANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Templemore.)
LORD STEABOLGI: My Lords, I want to take this opportunity of asking the noble Lord opposite, Lord Templemore, if he can give us any further information with regard to the question raised here and elsewhere about the Jarrow steel works. I understand that a very important deputation was received by the President of the Board of Trade yesterday, and that further information was laid before the Government. I shall be glad to know if any conclusion has been reached. In asking this question I would like to make it clear that I realise that, as things have gone, it may be that the tide has been missed with regard to up-to-date steel works being immediately erected at Jarrow, although I hope that eventually that will be done. I am not pressing the Government on that point. What I want to ask is, whether in the circumstances, they are prepared to do anything else for Jarrow in view of the appalling state of affairs disclosed by the noble Earl, Lord Midleton. There is another question which I should like to ask, and on that I should like to have the particular attention of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House. If a similar set of circumstances arises elsewhere, have the Government realised that it is not fair to leave the decision in the hands of those whose own narrow, sectional interests may be directly affected? I think one lesson to be learned from what has happened at Jarrow is that you cannot rely on justice being done if the decision is in the hands of people who may fear that, if a rival concern is started in the next town, their workpeople and share-

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holders may suffer. There must be a higher authority, and I hope the Government will see that in the future that higher authority is provided by themselves.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for having given me notice yesterday that he was going to raise this important question. I am afraid I have not very much to add to what I said and what my noble friend the Earl of Dudley said to your Lordships two days ago. Your Lordships will be aware that a deputation to my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade was received by him yesterday. I understand that the proceedings lasted some two hours, and that my right honourable friend informed the deputation that the questions raised were receiving the most careful consideration of the Government. He also promised that the points that had been put forward by the deputation would be transmitted by him to his colleagues. I should like to quote what was said by the honourable member for Jarrow—Miss Wilkinson—who is a member of the Party to which the noble Lord himself belongs. She said to a newspaper reporter: "It was a most impressive deputation in every way. I have never listened to such an impressive case, and the Minister was most sympathetic." I understand that my right honourable friend is going to make a statement in another place to-night on the Board of Trade Vote, which is being discussed there. That statement, I understand, may not be made until nine or ten o'clock to-night, and I am afraid I am not in a position to anticipate what my right honourable friend will say then.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am very much obliged to the noble Lord.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Bill reported without amendment.

HOUSING BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

SOLICITORS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
LORD WRIGHT: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 3, page 2, line 25, leave out ("and that").
LORD WRIGHT: My Lords, the first Amendment is merely drafting, and I beg to move that it be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 3, page 2, line 28, at end insert:
("and
(c) in the case of any person who, before entering into articles, has attended a course of legal instruction specified in the regulations and has passed any examination so specified as a qualifying examination in relation to that course, the term shall be four years.")
LORD WRIGHT: My Lords, the second Amendment is to insert certain words at at the end of line 28 on page 2. That Amendment speaks for itself. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 14, page 8, line 10, after ("in") insert ("Scotland and").
LORD WRIGHT: My Lords, the third Amendment is to insert the words "Scotland and" after the word "in." That is merely extending to Scotland a benefit which the Bill confers on England. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, before we adjourn, I beg to state that I am afraid it may be necessary, unless your Lordships are able to finish the consideration of the Amendments to the Tithe Bill before dinner to-morrow, to ask the House to sit after dinner.
  SPIRIT CONSUMPTION IN INDIAN PROVINCES.
  SPIRIT CONSUMPTION IN INDIAN PROVINCES.
TRING GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
DALTON-IN-FURNESS URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.

UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) ACT, 1935.
Order made by the Minister of Labour under Section 1 (5) to terminate the operation of the Act:
Presented (by command) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.