Sitting of 13 July 1936

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Southern Railway Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Epsom and Walton Downs Regulation Bill [Lords] (by Order),
As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the Third time.
Rochester Corporation Bill [Lords] (by Order),
As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the Third time.
Land Drainage Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Helston and Porthleven Water) Bill, Read the Third time, and passed.

ABERDEEN CORPORATION (STREETS, BUILDINGS, SEWERS, ETC.) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Acts, 1899 and 1933, relating to Aberdeen Corporation (Streets, Buildings, Sewers, Etc.)," presented by Sir Godfrey Collins; read the First time; and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act of 1899) to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 21st July, and to be printed. [Bill 156.]
ABERDEEN CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Acts, 1899 and 1933, relating to Aberdeen Corporation," presented by Secretary Sir Godfrey Collins; read the First time; and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act of 1899) to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 21st July, and to be printed. [Bill 157.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  CHINA.

    SMUGGLING.
    Mr. MOREINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received any information as to the results of the visit of the official sent by the Japanese Government to North China to inquire into the extensive smuggling of goods by Japanese importers?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Viscount Cranborne): I understand that the official in question has now returned to Tokyo, but I have not yet received any information regarding the results of his recent visit to Northern China.
    Mr. MOREING: Will it be possible to expedite this matter, so that we can have some information before the House rises?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo is well aware of the anxiety which is felt here on this question, and it is quite certain that he will send a report as soon as he can.
    Mr. MOREINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government have yet arrived at a conclusion as to the steps they can usefully take to facilitate an early settlement of the questions at issue with the Japanese Government in relation to smuggling in North China?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: His Majesty's Ambassador in Tokyo has again discussed the matter with the Japanese Government, who are, I understand, hopeful of a solution being reached, as a result of conversations recently initiated at Nanking by the new Japanese Ambassador. For the moment I do not think there is any further step which could usefully be taken by his Majesty's Government.

    KIDNAPPED BRITISH SUBJECT.
    Mr. DAYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the names of the British subjects who have been kidnapped and held to ransom by Chinese bandits during the 12 months ended to the last convenient date; which of these persons

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    have now been released by their captors; what ransom was demanded; and what amounts were paid?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: During the period from 1st July, 1935, to the present time there occurred only one case of kidnapping in China in which a British subject was involved. Mr. Gareth Jones was captured by disbanded soldiers in Eastern Chahar on 27th July, 1935. His captors originally demanded a ransom of $100,000 and a supply of arms. Negotiations for his release were rendered impossible by the subsequent rapid movements of the bandits, who eventually killed their captive on 16th August.

  GERMANY.

    HERR GREISER'S SPEECH.
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received official intimation as to whether the German Government endorses the recent speech and actions of Herr Greiser at Geneva?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: On 6th July His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires in Berlin was informed at the German Ministry for Foreign Affairs that the substance of what Herr Greiser said in the public session of the Council of the League of Nations held on 4th July would have the support of the whole German people.
    Lieut.-Commander FLETCHER: Did the Ambassador make it clear that the High Commissioner of Danzig has the full support of the Government in his actions taken on behalf of the League?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary made our position perfectly clear at Geneva.
    Mr. THURTLE: Can the Noble Lord say whether Herr Greiser's gestures have the full support of the German Government?

    HELIGOLAND.
    Commander LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now say whether Germany's undertaking regarding the refortification of Heligoland has been kept; and whether any right of inspection is exercised in this connection?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: As regards the first part of the question, inquiries have been made, and I understand that the island of Heligoland is being fortified. As regards the second part, I understand that no right of inspection exists.
    Commander LOCKER-LAMPSON: Is it being fortified by the leave of His Majesty's Government?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: No, Sir, it is not being fortified by the leave of anyone.

    OLYMPIC GAMES.
    Commander LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the announcement in Germany that minorities are to be treated well until the Olympic games in August, when the persecution against them is to revive, he will arrange to withhold passport facilities from persons in this country who wish to visit Germany for the Olympic games or otherwise?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: I have no knowledge of any such announcement as that referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend.
    Commander LOCKER - LAMPSON: May I bring it to the notice of the Noble Lord later on?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: Yes, certainly, Sir.

    PACIFICATION PROPOSALS.
    Mr. GARRO JONESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the German Government have indicated any withdrawal of the concrete pacification proposals contained in their memoranda of 7th March, 24th March, and 31st March; and whether, despite the German Government's disinclination to deal by written negotiation with the interrogations of 6th May, he is prepared to make a new approach to the problem of pacification by way of a preparatory conference in accordance with the proposal 21a of the German document of 31st March, and to make inquiries of the German Government and the other Powers to that end?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: The answer to the first part of the question is No, Sir. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the terms of the communiqué issued by

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    the United Kingdom, Belgium and French Delegations in Geneva on 3rd July.

    PUBLIC LOANS (BRITISH INVESTORS).
    Mr. LIDDALLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the refusal of the German Government to use its sterling credit balances to meet its full debt services to British holders of German public obligations, he will endeavour to find out to what extent there has been since 1934 a repatriation at the consequent depreciated market prices of German loans issued in London?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. W. S. Morrison): My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made inquiries in regard to the point referred to by my hon. Friend. Such evidence as is available indicates that since 1934 there has been no considerable repatriation of German loans issued in London.

    DARDANELLES.
    Mr. GARRO JONESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any explanation of the humanitarian purposes for which the British draft of the Straits Disarmament Convention seeks to reserve right of entry to foreign ships to the Black Sea?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: As my right hon. Friend stated in reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall) on 6th July, it would not be proper to enter into explanations of detail of the negotiations which are at present taking place at Montreux for the revision of the Straits Convention.
    Mr. GARRO JONES: Does the Noble Lord realise that this particular phrase has only given rise to amusement on the Continent and has done nothing to enhance the reputation of this Government for sincerity?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: I can assure the hon. Member that the position with regard to this phrase and other aspects of the negotiations will be made clear at the earliest possible moment.
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Prime Minister whether in view of the importance of concluding a
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    Dardanelles agreement without delay and as such an agreement cannot be concluded without the assent of Italy to the abrogation of the germane clauses of the Treaty of Lausanne, he will initiate forthwith discussions with those Mediterranean Governments to which we have given guarantees of mutual assistance, with a view to the obstacles in the way of Italy participating in the Montreaux Conference being removed?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): In the opinion of His Majesty's Government there is no reason why the speedy conclusion of a new Straits Convention need be prejudiced in any way by the unilateral and provisional assurances recently given by His Majesty's Government to certain Mediterranean Powers.
    Mr. THURTLE: Will the Prime Minister in the public interest see that the Government do everything possible to effect an early and friendly settlement with Turkey and Russia in regard to this matter?

    TOURIST TRAFFIC (VISAS).
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the increase in tourist traffic to this country from abroad, he will investigate the whole system of visas with the object of reducing these charges to a minimum or eliminating them altogether?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: I regret that I cannot hold out any hope of a general modification of the visa system. A deputation from the Travel Association recently made representations, however, to the Foreign Office as to the amount of the visa fee required of American citizens visiting this country, and these representations are now receiving careful consideration.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Can my hon. Friend say when it will be possible to give an answer, in view of the tourist traffic which is going on this summer; and can we have a reply before the Session ends?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: I will give a reply as soon as possible, but, as I said, this needs very careful consideration, and it is receiving careful consideration.
    Mr. DAY: Is it the fact that America has agreed to waive its visa fees?
    Mr. LEACH: Is the Noble Lord aware that the American Government are quite willing to facilitate the traffic of tourists between the two nations by the removal of a good many foolish obstructions; and will he see to it, therefore, that favourable consideration is given when this matter is considered?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: Yes, Sir, sympathetic consideration will be given to the whole question.

    GERMANY AND AUSTRIA.
    Mr. THORNEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information in connection with the agreement arrived at between Herr von Papen, of Germany, and the Chancellor of Austria relative to the political and economic conditions of both countries; and whether he can state the terms of the agreement?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: I understand that the agreement in question was concluded on 11th July. The information which I have so far received tends to confirm the terms as published in to-day's Press.
    Mr. TH0RNE: Has the Noble Lord seen any comments made in the Italian Press on this matter as to whether they acquiesce in this agreement?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: The information has only just come in, and we have not had time to receive any communication from Italy at all.
    Mr. THORNE: When you have received the full text of this agreement will it be possible to have it circulated?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: I will certainly consider that suggestion.

    SPAIN (BRITISH SUBJECTS, PROTECTION).
    Mr. DUGGANasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the recent murder in Barcelona of a British subject, Mr. J. Mitchell Hood; what representations have been made to the Spanish Government in this connection; and whether he is now in a position to give an assurance that adequate steps will be taken to protect British lives and
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    property during the present period of riots and lawlessness in certain parts of Spain?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Consul-General at Barcelona and His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at Madrid addressed Notes to the Spanish Government on 2nd and 3rd July, respectively, drawing attention to the grave concern which such an occurrence must cause to His Majesty's Government. The Spanish Government have expressed deep regret and undertaken to take the most active steps to inquire into the circumstances and to arrest the murderers as soon as possible. With regard to the last part of the question, an assurance has been given by the Spanish authorities that steps will be taken and all the forces of public order will be available to afford prompt protection to British lives and property.

    ITALY AND ABYSSINIA.
    Miss RATHBONEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is by the order or advice of His Majestys' Government that the Emperor of Abyssinia has been refused permission to return to Abyssinia through the Sudan; and, if so, for what reason?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: No request of the nature indicated in the first part of the hon. Member's question has been received. The second part of the question does not therefore arise.
    Miss RATHBONE: in the event of those who believe that is the Emperor's wish proving to be rightly informed, will the Government give facilities for his return to his own country?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: It seems to me a matter in which we should wait until the Emperor has expressed his wish.
    Miss RATHBONEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is by the order or advice of His Majesty's Government that messages telegraphed by the Emperor of Abyssinia to Ras Imru at Gore were diverted from the Cairo-Khartoum route to Asmara, with the result that they fell into Italian hands?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has no knowledge of the messages referred to.
    Miss RATHBONE: Will the noble Lord be good enough to make inquiries to ascertain whether it is not so?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: I have made inquiries, and there is no knowledge of these messages.

  AGRICULTURE.

    ALLOTMENTS.
    Mr. ELLIS SMITHasked the Minister of Agriculture the number of allotment holders in 1917, 1920 and 1934; and whether he will consider meeting the Allotment Society for the purpose of hearing evidence of the need for a measure of allotment reforms to suit present day conditions?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): The estimated number of allotment holders in England and Wales in 1920 was 1,330,000 and in 1934 936,000. Comparable figures for 1917 are not available. As regards the second part of the question, there is already in existence an Allotments Advisory Committee, on which the National Allotments Society is represented. The committee meets from time to time to advise me on all questions relating to allotments, and its recommendations always receive the fullest consideration. In these circumstances the need for the special meeting with the society suggested by the hon. Member does not seem to arise.
    Mr. E. SMITHasked the Minister of Agriculture how many allotment holders have been forced to give up their work through the land being required for other purposes during the years 1929, 1930, 1932, 1934 and 1935?
    Mr. ELLIOT: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Commander LOCKER-LAMPSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware how many allotments have been taken away in these years?
    Following are the statistics:
    The returns furnished by allotment authorities in England and Wales show that the following numbers of allotment holders were occupying plots on their land which ceased to be available for allotments during the years in question:
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    Year.

    1929

    12,471

    1930

    14,803

    1931 and 1932

    16,720

    1934

    11,413

    1935

    11,356

    The figure for the two years 1931 and 1932 is for urban areas only. The figures for 1934 and 1935 are also for urban areas only.
    It is impossible to say in how many cases such relinquishment of land has involved the loss of a plot to an individual allotment holder owing to lack of alternative accommodation. Where land has been purchased or appropriated for allotments by a local authority my consent is necessary to its disposal for other purposes, but in all such cases careful consideration is given to the question of alternative accommodation. I have no information as to the number of plot-holders on land in private ownership who have been dispossessed.
    Mr. E. SMITHasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider the necessity of taking steps for stabilising the tenure of allotments?
    Mr. ELLIOT: The practical remedy for insecurity of tenure of allotments is the purchase of the land either by allotment associations or by local authorities, and I have recently circularised all allotment authorities urging upon them the desirability of purchasing land for allotments.
    Commander LOCKER - LAMPSON: How can they purchase land against the purchasing power of the local authority?

    DRAINAGE BOARDS (WAGES).
    Mr. LEACHasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that there is a growing practice among catchment boards, such as that of the Great Ouse and Internal Drainage Boards, manned by farming interests, to pay their navvy labourers the same wage rates as agricultural labourers and that, with frequent broken time, higher rents, and travel costs, this is in reality a much lower standard; and will he take steps to remedy this state of things?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I have no power to intervene in regard to rates of wages paid by catchment and other drainage boards except in the case of schemes in respect of which a Government grant is being

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    paid. One of the conditions attaching to such grants is that the rate of wages of each class of workmen should be that commonly recognised in the district for the type of work. If the hon. Member is of opinion that this condition is not being complied with in any individual case and will send me particulars, I shall be pleased to have the matter investigated.
    Mr. LEACH: Have I not cited a case of that kind in the question?
    Mr. ELLIOT: It would need to be some particular case or cases, rather than that of the general practice of some board.
    Mr. LEACH: Can the right hon. Gentleman take steps to discountenance by any means this wretched practice of keeping wages down to the lowest possible level?
    Mr. ELLIOT: It would be more efficacious if you get some particular instance and make a complaint about that.

    MILK MARKETING (BUTTER AND CHEESE).
    Mr. LEACHasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that the Milk Marketing Board has been obliged, owing to the rapid increase in surplus milk production, to sell milk for cheese making since April, 1935, and milk for butter making since October, 1935, at prices substantially below the Government's estimated cheese milk price, which is based on quotations for Dominion imports; and whether, seeing that the depression in the milk industry in a time of rising prices for milk manufacturers is due to failure to increase liquid milk consumption to balance the increase in milk production, and not to competition from Dominion dairy products, he will not proceed with the proposed levy on Dominion butter and cheese?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I am aware that the prices obtained by the Milk Marketing Board for milk sold for manufacture into butter and cheese are lower than the statutory cheese milk price prescribed under the Milk Acts, 1934 and 1936. I could not agree that the course proposed in the last part of the question follows logically from the hon. Member's premises, and I would remind him that the question of duties or levies on imports of butter and cheese will not be
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    considered by the Government until the report of the Milk Reorganisation Commission is available. All relevant considerations will then be taken into account.
    Mr. LEACH: If it turns out that the suggestions I make in the question are well founded, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake not to impose the levy?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I am afraid that is a hypothetical question.

    LIVESTOCK AND MEAT (GOVERNMENT POLICY).
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can make any statement as to the expected effect on prices to the consumers of beef and veal of the new livestock policy of the Government?
    Mr. ELLIOT: As my hon. Friend will appreciate, it would be premature to make any forecast as suggested.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Is it not probable that the price will be forced up?
    Mr. ELLIOT: No, Sir, I do not think so.
    Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHS: Is there any necessity now to bother, because it has been raining heavily during the weekend, and there is plenty of water to drink?

    WAGES (REGULATION) ACT, 1924.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that a workman named Wilfred Marshall, of Stainton, near Rotherham, made a complaint to the Ministry that his employer at Rock House Farm was not paying the wages due under the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act, 1924; that the Ministry inspector made inquiries at the farm and proved underpayment; that the workman was afterwards given one week's notice and later on received a solicitor's letter demanding possession of the house under threat of turning the man and his family on to the street; and will he take action to prevent employers who break the law from victimising workmen who have not broken the law?
    Mr. ELLIOT: My attention has already been drawn to the case in question. Without expressing any opinion on the facts of this particular case, I have no hesitation in saying that I would very

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    strongly deprecate the action of an employer in dismissing a worker as a result of an investigation by an inspector which disclosed contravention of the agricultural minimum wage orders. As the hon. Member is aware, however, I have no power to prevent an employer terminating a worker's contract of service. I would add that from the information at my disposal, I have every reason to believe that cases of victimisation are rare.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: In view of the bountiful blessings conferred upon agriculture and farmers generally, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that he has a duty to agricultural labourers, who are merely complying with the law, to prevent them from being victimised by farmers who are known to have broken the law?
    Mr. ELLIOT: Certainly, and I shall carry that out to the best of my ability.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how he intends to carry it out? Does he intend to provide a few thousand pounds for more wage inspectors and at the same time provide a few more millions for farmers in one way or another?
    Mr. ELLIOT: The inspectorate has been increased lately. If more are needed they will be appointed.

    FISHING INDUSTRY (ICELAND).
    Mr. LAWasked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the poverty of this year's Icelandic fishing and to the probability of there being an acute shortage of fish during the months of August and September; and whether he proposes to take any steps to met such a situation?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I am aware that there have been complaints to the effect suggested in the first part of the question, but I have no direct evidence on the subject. As my hon. Friend is aware, a new Northern Waters Order has just been made regarding the landings from Bear Island during September, and this should relieve the pressure on Icelandic waters.
    Mr. GARRO JONES: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the new Order is of indefinite duration or is it
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    of definite duration as contemplated by the Act under which it was made? How long will it last?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I understand that it will be for this year.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    CENSUS OF DISTRIBUTION.
    Mr. MABANEasked (1) the Minister of Agriculture whether he will institute a census of distribution of foodstuffs in order to obtain the necessary statistical information without which a serious attack on the problem of distribution cannot be undertaken;
    (2) the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the results of the census of distribution recently completed in the United States of America; whether he is aware that large economies in the process of distribution are likely to be possible in the United States of America as a result of the information gained; and whether, in view of the bearing of distributive economy in the problem of malnutrition, he will at once take the necessary steps to institute a census of distribution in this country?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): I have been asked to answer these questions. I have not yet seen the results of the United States census of distribution for the year 1933 which, I presume, is the one to which my hon. Friend refers, but I will study them carefully when received. In the meantime I have nothing to add to the previous replies on this subject.
    Mr. H. G. WILLIAMS: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that a report on the number of ladies' hats of a particular design sold last year would be any indication of what they will be next year?
    Sir ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it necessary to examine the underlying factors of this problem of commerce? Is he not aware that while the cost of production generally has gone down costs of distribution have gone up?

    IMPORTS FROM ITALY.
    Mr. CARYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether steps will

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    be taken to render compulsory, as from the date of revocation of the sanctions orders, payment to the Bank of England by United Kingdom importers in respect of their imports from Italy?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, Sir. I would draw attention to the Treasury Order, entitled "The Clearing Office (Italy) Order, 1936," which is being laid before the House to-day. This Order renders payment in the manner suggested compulsory as from 15th July. Arrangements as to distribution to creditors in the United Kingdom are under discussion with the Italian Government, and I am not at present in a position to make any statement in regard to this aspect of the matter.

    TELEPHONE EXCHANGES, LONDON.
    Mr. DAYasked the Postmaster-General how many telephone exchanges in the London area are still on the old telephone system and have not yet been converted to the automatic system; and which are the next exchanges to be converted to the automatic system?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Major Tryon): The number of manual telephone exchanges in the London area, within 10 miles of Oxford Circus, still to be converted to automatic working is 56. The next exchanges to be converted are Sydenham, Royal, Waterloo and Stepney Green.
    Mr. DAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is that some of the exchanges in the West End of London have not been converted yet?
    Major TRYON: That is not in the question. Perhaps the hon. Member will put it on the Order Paper.

    TELEPHONE CHARGES (REDUCTIONS).
    Sir ROBERT YOUNGasked the Postmaster-General whether he proposes to make any further concessions to users of the telephone service?
    Major TRYON: Perhaps I may answer this question and another question later. I have an important statement to make, and it is long.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Postmaster-General whether he is yet in a position to make any further reductions in telephone rentals?
    Major TRYON: I will make a statement at the end of Questions.
    At the end of Questions—
    Major TRYON: Since October, 1934, when a series of reductions in telephone charges was inaugurated, the growth of the system has been remarkable and the annual increase in telephones is now about double that of the years preceding the reduction of rates. This growth has been accompanied by very satisfactory increases in revenue and, with a view to bringing telephone service within the reach of a still wider circle of the community, and of increasing its usefulness and cheapness to those who already have it, I propose, with the concurrence of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to introduce further concessions.
    From 1st October next every subscriber on a quarterly basis under the ordinary residential rates for exclusive lines will be able to make 200 penny local calls a year free of charge. This free allowance will be applied to the first 50 local call units in each quarter, the units being 1d. each. Similarly, the first 16 local call units in each month will be given free to ordinary monthly residential subscribers. In a large number of cases this will mean that the telephone rental of £1 a quarter will cover all nominal charges for the service, and a small residential user in all but the largest cities will thus be able to obtain what is, in effect, an inclusive service at a figure closely approximating to 1s. 6d. a week; at the same time all ordinary residential subscribers will secure a benefit up to 4s. 2d. a quarter.
    It is, of course, with the small user that the chief potentialities of development lie, as we have found from the success of the business small user tariff among small shop-keepers and one-man businesses. The concession of free calls is not so suitable to this service which is largely used for incoming calls. I propose, therefore, to make a flat reduction in the business small user tariff of 10s. a year and a similar reduction will be applicable to all ordinary business lines.

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    In the case of those businesses which rent additional lines to the same premises, the rental for each of these auxiliary lines will also be reduced by a further 10s. a year. There will be consequential reductions in associated services. In January next I also propose to make certain reductions in the charges for private lines up to 24 miles, with corresponding reductions in respect of the first 24 miles of longer circuits.
    These concessions, taken in conjunction with the reduced charges for extension telephones introduced last January and the further reductions in trunk charges which came into force in May, represent a very considerable all-round cheapening of telephone services, affecting all classes of telephone users. In fact, the reductions made during the present year are estimated to involve the sacrifice of revenue, after allowing for additional business induced by the lower tariffs, to a total amount of one and a-half million pounds in the first full year, but I feel confident that this sacrifice will be amply repaid by the further assistance it will afford to trade and in facilitating business and social communications throughout the country.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Arising out of that extremely satisfactory statement of the Minister, is it not a fact that the reduction in rates has very much increased the use of the telephone, and is he not hopeful that, in view of the further reduction of rates, especially to business houses, the telephone charges can be again reduced and so be of further assistance to the business community?
    Major TRYON: I do not think I could undertake to promise any further reduction since the statement I have just made, but it is a fact that there has been a great increase in the use of the telephone. We hope by this announcement to-day to add to the number of telephone subscribers, and I am glad to be able to assure the House that this policy has led to a great increase of employment in the Post Office.
    Mr. BELLENGER: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that for some time past a connecting-on charge of 15s. has been made to new subscribers in the Metropolitan area, at any rate, whereas previously no connecting-on charge, but a deposit of £1 for calls, was
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    made, and will he consider the advisability of removing that charge?
    Major TRYON: If the hon. Member will put that question down, I shall be happy to go into it.
    Mr. THORNE: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not think that this is one of the big advantages of having it under State control?
    Major TRYON: I have not a very happy recollection of the management of the country some little time ago by the hon. Member's party.

    PALACE OF WESTMINSTER.
    Sir FRANCIS FREMANTLEasked the Minister of Pensions, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will be in a position to submit proposals for the reorganisation of the refreshment rooms and lavatories in the Palace of Westminster before the Summer Recess?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Mr. R. S. Hudson)(for the First Commissioner of Works): The question of the reorganisation of the refreshment rooms and lavatories in the Palace of Westminster was remitted to a Joint Select Committee of the two Houses which has not yet reported.
    Sir F. FREMANTLE: Can the right hon. Member say what are the prospects of it getting to work; do they ever meet?
    Mr. HUDSON: I understand that they met sometime in March.

    HYDE PARK.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the Minister of Pensions, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, in view of the floral display in Regent's Park and St. James's Park, he will consider the possibility of making arrangements for replacing the flower-beds in the railed-in enclosure between the two pathways on the East side of Hyde Park, immediately to the South of Grosvenor Gate?
    Mr. HUDSON: As my hon. Friend is aware, this question is one which has already been carefully considered from

    1655
    time to time. The First Commissioner has, however, re-examined it as sympathetically as possible, and has come to the conclusion that the attractiveness of the Spring display of daffodils is such that he would not feel justified at present in having flower beds constructed in this area.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the hon. Member aware that these particular beds were specially prepared as flower beds and that there is ample space in the part of the park referred to for the display of daffodils to continue?
    Mr. HUDSON: I understand that these particular spaces are filled with daffodils.

    LOCAL ADMINISTRATION (SOUTH WALES AND MONMOUTHSHIRE).
    Sir WALDRON SMITHERSasked the Minister of Health whether in view of the fact that a large number of the employés of the local authorities in South Wales and Monmouthshire are relatives of members of those authorities and in order to rebut charges of nepotism, he will obtain a return of all employés of such authorities who are related to members thereof; and, when complete, will he place a copy in the Library of the House?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): I am aware that there

    Maternal Mortality—1935.

    Per 1,000 total (Live and Still) Births.

    Deaths classified to Puerperal Sepsis.

    Deaths classified to other Puerperal Causes.

    Total Puerperal Causes.

    Pembroke Adminstrative County

    …

    1·40

    2·09

    3·49

    Cardigan Administrative County

    …

    1·49

    1·49

    2·98

    Carmarthen Administrative County

    …

    1·48

    5·19

    6·67

    Glamorgan Administrative County

    …

    2·93

    3·72

    6·65

    Cardiff C.B.

    …

    2·81

    1·69

    4·50

    Merthyr Tydfil C.B.

    …

    1·85

    4·63

    6·48

    Swansea C.B.

    …

    0·73

    3·99

    4·72

    Monmouth Administrative County

    …

    2·32

    4·11

    6·43

    Newport C.B.

    …

    1·78

    2·97

    4·75

    Brecon Administrative County

    …

    1·22

    4·87

    6·09

    England and Wales

    …

    1·61

    2·32

    3·93

    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Minister of Health the rate of maternal mortality per 1,000 live births and per 1,000 live and still births, and the rate of infantile mortality in England and Wales in 1935?
    are certain allegations of the kind mentioned. The fact that an applicant for employment is a relation of a councillor is not necessarily a disqualification for appointment. I do not think the action which my hon. Friend suggests would be appropriate, but in view of the undesirable results of the circulation of allegations of this kind I think it would be desirable that the local authorities should themselves consider the question of collecting and giving the facts.
    Mr. BENSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in South Wales everybody is connected with everybody else?

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    MATERNAL MORTALITY.
    Mr. JAMES GRIFFITHSasked the Minister of Health the maternal mortality rate in 1935 in each of the following counties: Pembroke, Cardigan, Carmarthen, Glamorgan, Monmouth, and Brecon, and the comparative figure for the whole of England and Wales?
    Sir K. WOOD: As the answer involves a tabular statement I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate the statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:
    Sir K. WOOD: With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate these figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the figures:

    1657

    England and Wales, 1935.

    Maternal Mortality.

    Infantile Mortality.

    per 1,000 live births.

    per 1,000 live and still births.

    per 1,000 live births.

    4·10

    3·93

    57

    TUBERCULOSIS (SOUTH WALES).
    Mr. J. GRIFFITHSasked the Minister of Health whether there has been any improvement in the mortality rate from tuberculosis in the industrial areas of South Wales, particularly in the age groups of 15–25 years and 25–35 years to which attention was called in the report of the chief medical officer of the Ministry of Health for the year 1933; and whether he will direct the attention of the Unemployment Assistance Board to the report of the chief medical officer and ask the board to bear it in mind when fixing scales and conditions of assistance to unemployed persons in those areas?
    Sir K. WOOD: The death rates from pulmonary tuberculosis in the years 1931 to 1935, for the area comprising the administrative counties of Brecon, Carmarthen, Glamorgan and Monmouth with the associated county boroughs of Cardiff, Merthyr Tydfil, Swansea and Newport, including the rates for the age-groups mentioned, show some improvement during that period, though emigration from this area may render interpretation of the figures, of which I will send the hon. Member a copy, somewhat difficult. As regards the second part of the question, the Unemployment Assistance Board are aware of the observations contained in the report.
    Mr. GRIFFITHS: Has the right hon. Gentleman called their attention to the fact that, in the general medical view, this increase is due to the population in South Wales having to live on a poor standard of living?
    Sir K. WOOD: My information is that there is some improvement.

    RATING AND VALUATION.
    Mr. MAITLANDasked the Minister of Health whether a Bill to assimilate the law in London with respect to rating
    1658
    and valuation with the law outside London will be introduced into Parliament in the present or next Session?
    Sir K. WOOD: I have recently been in touch with representatives of the authorities concerned who have undertaken to submit an agreed statement of the amendments of the law desired by them. The prospects of legislation next Session must depend on the scope of the amendments contemplated and, of course, on the state of Parliamentary business.
    Mr. MAITLAND: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, may I ask him whether he will bear in mind that two years ago, in March, 1934, on the Second Reading of a private Member's Bill dealing with this subject, the Parliamentary Secretary said that it was the intention of the Department to introduce a Measure on this subject and in these circumstances may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to do his best to get this matter dealt with as speedily as possible?
    Sir K. WOOD: I think that there is a better prospect now, as I understand there is a substantial measure of agreement among local authorities.

  HOUSING.

    OVERCROWDING SURVEY.
    Miss WARDasked the Minister of Health, whether, in view of the volume of work entailed in the operation of the Overcrowding Act, he is satisfied that local authorities, particularly urban and rural councils, have sufficient expert staff to carry out the work expeditiously?
    Sir K. WOOD: I presume that my hon. Friend has in mind the work which has to be carried out before 1st January next in those areas where that date has been fixed as the appointed day from which the overcrowding provisions will operate. I have no reason to suppose that the local authorities concerned will experience any insuperable difficulties in completing that work.
    Miss WARD: Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries of some local authorities to find out whether they hold the same view as the right hon. Gentleman? I understand that some are a little apprehensive on this point.
    Sir K. WOOD: I think the best course would be for the hon. Member to send me any information she has, and I will examine it.

    RENT RESTRICTION.
    Mr. JENKINSasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to a recent judgment in the Court of Appeal which places on the tenants of controlled dwellings the onus of proof of such control; and whether he will take immediate steps to introduce amending legislation?
    Sir K. WOOD: I have given careful consideration to the issues raised in this decision which has, I think, been the subject of some misconception. I am advised that no difficulty is likely to arise in the case of a tenant who was in occupation of his house on 17th July, 1933, since the necessary facts will be normally within his own knowledge. In the case of a tenant who was not in occupation at that date, it may sometimes be a matter of difficulty to prove whether the house was or was not decontrolled, but in such a case the difficulty would create a hardship only if the landlord attempts to raise the rent or regain possession of a house which has either been improperly registered or, having been in the occupation of a tenant on 17th July, 1933, has not been registered at all. I am satisfied that such a contingency is unlikely to arise since, apart from other considerations, the Acts impose substantial penalties on a landlord who knowingly makes a false claim that a house is decontrolled. I may add that the working of the Acts is under the close scrutiny of the local authorities who have power to prosecute for contravention of the Acts. In these circumstances, the decision does not, in my view, call for any immediate action, but I shall carefully watch any developments that may take place.

    DEAF PERSONS.
    Miss WARDasked the Minister of Health whether he is satisfied that local authorities have taken sufficient advantage of their permissive powers to provide adequately for deaf persons?
    Sir K. WOOD: A considerable number of local authorities concerned are now making contributions, as recommended by my Department, to voluntary
    1660
    associations in aid of the work of finding employment for deaf and dumb persons, and I have no evidence that this work is hampered owing to lack of support from the local authorities.
    Miss WARD: Did the right hon. Gentleman see a statement of the late Minister of Health in a speech he made to the Deaf and Dumb Society with regard to the circular?
    Sir K. WOOD: No. I shall be glad if the hon. Member will let me have a copy of it.

    LEAGUE OF NATIONS (COVENANT, REFORM).
    Mr. MABANEasked the Prime Minister whether he is yet able, before it is too late, to indicate what steps the Government intend to take to initiate proposals to secure a peaceful reconsideration of the Treaties of Peace of 1919 and 1920 under Article 19 of the Covenant of the League of Nations?
    The PRIME MINISTER: As my right hon. Friend informed my hon. Friend the Member for East Willesden (Mr. D. G. Somerville) on 6th July last, the question of the reform of the working of the Covenant is to be considered by the Assembly of the League of Nations next September and is at present under examination by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. MABANE: As a revision of the Peace Treaties is going on in the absence of any initiative from the League and without any consultation with the League, would it not he better if such initiative were taken by the League at an earlier date than suggested by the Prime Minister?

    COAL INDUSTRY (OIL EXTRACTION).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Lord President of the Council whether the Fuel Research Board have yet been asked to report upon the new carbonisation process of the National Coke and Oil Company, Limited; and whether the report, if any, is regarded as satisfactory?
    The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave him on 25th June last, to which I have nothing to add.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: As this company are asking the public for large sums of money for a process which may or may not be efficacious, is it within the power of his Department to make a public statement when non-tested processes are utilised for the purpose of collecting hundreds of thousands of pounds from the investing public?
    Mr. MacDONALD: I have been happy on more than one occasion to make it public that since 1932 we are prepared to test these processes, but we have not received sanction or the necessary invitation from the company.
    Mr. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary for Mines whether, in the case of processes for the production of oil from a mixture of coal and imported oil, the preference which is accorded to home-produced motor spirit and heavy oils is applied to the whole of the oil products obtained or only to that part which is produced from coal?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Captain Crookshank): No, Sir. Any oils derived from imported oil are liable to customs duty at the appropriate rate; the preference therefore applies solely to that part of the products which is produced from coal.

    SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS.
    Mr. DAVID ADAMSasked the Minister of Health whether the humane slaughtering of animals for food is universal throughout the country; and, if not, will he give the names of those authorities which have not yet adopted the Act?

    The available figures relate to the areas of the Abertillery, Newbridge (Crumlin) and Blaina Employment Exchanges. The Table below gives the desired particulars for these Exchanges.

    Employment Exchange.

    Number of applicants for Unemployment Allowances at 22nd June, 1936.

    Number of payments of Unemployment Allowances in the week ended 26th June, 1936, according to—

    Unemployment Assistance Regulations.

    Transitional Payments Practice.

    Abertillery

    2,180

    780

    1,384

    Newbridge (Crumlin)

    1,278

    332

    904

    Blaina

    1,140

    216

    910

    Sir K. WOOD: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to a recent question on this subject of which I am sending him a copy.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    PONTEFRACT.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons in receipt of unemployment assistance in the area covered by the Pontefract office; and the number assessed under the regulations and transition payments, respectively?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTER of LABOUR (Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead): At 22nd June, 1936, there were 1,259 persons on the registers of the Pontefract Employment Exchange with applications authorised for unemployment allowances. In the week ended 26th June, 1936, the number of payments according to the Unemployment Assistance Regulations was 553 and the number according to transitional payments practice was 708.

    ABERTILLERY, CRUMLIN AND BLAINA.
    Mr. DAGGARasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons who come under the Unemployment Assistance Board in the Abertillery, Crumlin, and Blaina areas, respectively, and the number of persons receiving assistance under the Regulations, with those in receipt of
    transitional benefit under the standstill order?
    Lieut.-Colonel MUIRHEAD: As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:

    TRADING ESTATES (WAGES).
    Mr. MAINWARINGasked the Minister of Labour whether in existing trading estates or estates likely to be promoted either by the Ministry of Labour or the Special Areas Reconstructional Association, proper provisions exist or will be made to safeguard trade union rates of wages for those engaged in any of the establishments?
    Lieut. - Colonel MUIRHEAD: The factories on these trading estates will be rented by the companies to prospective employers at commercial rents, and my right hon. Friend sees no reason to differentiate between the position of such employers and those occupying existing trading estates.
    Mr. MAINWARING: Are we to understand from the reply that the Minister does not think it fit and proper to see that there are trade union rates of wages and conditions of employment in these estates?
    Lieut.-Colonel MUIRHEAD: My right hon. Friend, as my answer indicates, does not see any reason for differentiating between these particular trading estates and any other trading estates.
    Mr. MAINWARING: Is it not a fact that these trading estates are to be utilised to draw unemployed workmen from depressed areas, and that they are offered work in these places at an absolutely scandalous rate of wages, 7¾d. per hour being paid at one of these places?
    Lieut.-Colonel MUIRHEAD: I am not at all prepared to accept the statement made by the hon. Member, but I would draw attention to the fact that if one is going to differentiate between these trading estates and other trading estates it may end in defeating the object of these trading estates, which is to stimulate industrial activity in the Special Areas.
    Mr. MAINWARING: Chinese labour.

    ASSISTANCE REGULATIONS.
    Mr. JOHNasked the Minister of Labour whether he will give the amount estimated to be paid under the new Unemployment Assistance Regulations and the amount that would be paid if the new scales were equal to unemployment benefit without regard to any means test?
    Lieut. - Colonel MUIRHEAD: As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Explanatory Memorandum by the Unemployment Assistance Board contained in the White Paper (Cmd. 5229). As to the second part of the question, the scale allowances under the Regulations include provision in respect of members of the applicant's household who would be inadmissible as dependants under the conditions governing the payment of unemployment benefit and for whom, therefore, there are no corresponding benefit rates. Consequently an estimate of the kind desired cannot be given.

    LANCASHIRE.
    Mr. GORDON MACDONALDasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons who come under the Unemployment Assistance Board in Lancashire, and the number receiving assistance under the regulations with those receiving transitional benefit under the standstill Order?
    Lieut.-Colonel MUIRHEAD: I am having the information extracted and will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT as soon as possible.

    HOURS OF LABOUR.
    Mr. KENNEDYasked the Minister of Labour whether he is prepared to initiate discussion with responsible bodies in this country on the question of the legal limitation of the hours of labour in our main industries as a means of dealing with the problem of unemployment?
    Lieut.-Colonel MUIRHEAD: My right hon. Friend and his predecessor have had interviews with representatives of a number of important industries and have discussed with them the question of absorbing more workers into employment by various means, including the limitation of hours of labour.

    BRITISH AND COLONIAL LAW.
    Sir ARNOLD WILSONasked the Attorney-General whether, in view of the unanimous report of the Committee on Ministers' Powers that, until the Crown Proceedings Bill or a similar Measure is passed into law, there will remain a gap in the constitution where the supremacy of the law does not prevail, and of the

    1665
    widspread demand in legal and lay circles for such a Measure, he can now state whether it is proposed to introduce a Bill to supplement the provisions of the Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1933, and to bring English And Colonial law on this subject more into line with that of His Majesty's Dominions?
    The ATTORNEY - GENERAL (Sir Donald Somervell): This is a subject on which there is a considerable division of opinion, and it is not proposed to introduce a Bill on the lines suggested.

    PALESTINE.
    Mr. DAVID ADAMSasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, with the restoration of order in Palestine, it is his intention to advise the appointment from this country of experts in municipal administration in view of the backward state of local government in Palestine?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): The question of the appointment of a municipal adviser will be further considered when normal conditions are restored. With reference to the suggestion in the second part of the hon. Member's question, I am glad to be able to say that almost all the municipalities in Palestine have worked well and satisfactorily during the last two and a-half years.

    ACCIDENT, PORTSMOUTH DOCKYARD.
    Mr. THORNEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give the House any information in connection with the accident to four men when the staging alongside the "Iron Duke" in Portsmouth Dockyard collapsed and threw them 40 feet to the dock below; whether he can state the cause of the accident; and whether the staging in question was properly erected and tested before the men stood on it?
    The CIVIL LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay): I regret to state that the Admiral Superintendent, Portsmouth, reports that on Wednesday, 8th July, owing to the breaking of a spar supporting some staging on the side of
    1666
    His Majesty's Ship "Iron Duke" in dock at Portsmouth Dockyard, four men fell to the bottom of the dock—a distance of 20 feet 6 inches. One of these men, F. H. Martin, skilled labourer, died at the Royal Naval Hospital, Haslar, on the same day. The other men were also removed for treatment to Haslar Hospital suffering from multiple injuries. The staging spar referred to was recently drawn from store and had not been previously used. It had been subjected to the usual practical tests and the stage had been erected by experienced stagemakers under the supervision of a chargeman of 30 years' experience of this class of work. It is reported that the fault in the spar was of an unusual character and that no inspection or practicable test would have revealed the defect; also that a spar of the dimensions used would normally be of considerably more than ample strength for its purpose. An inquest was held on Friday, 10th July, on the body of Martin and a verdict of accidental death was returned, the jury expressing an opinion that no one was to blame for the accident. The Board of Admiralty have expressed their sympathy with the relatives of the deceased man, and the question of paying compensation to his dependants is under consideration.

    PROVIDED SCHOOLS (RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION).
    Mr. THURTLEasked the President of the Board of Education whether the attitude of his Department in regard to the use of parts of provided schools for the purpose of sectarian religious instruction remains as set forth in the letter to the Yorkshire Education Committee in 1929; whether such arrangements may be entered into in exceptional cases only, where children could not, in practice, be withdrawn from school premises; and whether he will make this fact clear to all local education authorities who contemplate entering into arrangements with denominational authorities?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Oliver Stanley): The circumstances in which the use of provided school premises is permissible are indicated in the letters to the Dorset and West Riding authorities, and I do not think that any further communication to local authorities is called for.
    Mr. THURTLE: Will the Minister of Education say whether the law is as set forth in my question? Is he aware that there is considerable doubt as to what this letter really means, even people like the Archbishop of Canterbury apparently being in doubt as to its meaning?
    Mr. STANLEY: I think the two letters to which I have referred set out very clearly what is the board's point of view on the legal position, and I have never heard any difficulty expressed even from such a distinguished quarter as that to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
    Mr. THURTLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a colleague of his in another place described this letter as a masterpiece of—[Interruption].

    WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION (SILICOSIS).
    Mr. JOELasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Leonard Cox, of 49, Badger Street, Upper Gornal, Dudley, the facts of which show that a workman engaged in grinding fire-bricks who contracts silicosis is not entitled to compensation whereas another workman working in the same factory and grinding silica bricks is entitled to compensation; and whether he will take steps to provide that these anomalies in the compensation law shall be altered?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): The Home Office has no evidence that workmen engaged in the fire-brick industry as distinct from the silica brick industry are exposed to the risk of silicosis so as to justify the making of a compensation scheme to cover them. As regards the case of Leonard Cox, I understand that he has not been examined by the Silicosis Medical Board, and that in correspondence with the board it was merely certified that silicosis is suspected: but I will have further inquiries made.
    Mr. JOEL: In view of the large number of anomalies under the compensation laws and in view of the fact that approved societies are expecting them to be remedied, does not my hon. Friend think that a revision of these laws in the near future is desirable?
    Mr. LLOYD: There is a number of committees inquiring into various aspects of this matter at present.
    Mr. TH0RNE: When making inquiries, will my hon. Friend try to ascertain the percentage of silicosis in these particular bricks?
    Sir JOHN HASLAM: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that for two years now some of us have been asking for inquiries of this description and have continually been put off, and is it not time an inquiry was made?
    Mr. MAINWARING: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether, in order to expedite the reforms which are persistently being asked for, it is possible to give to the experts a dose of the diseases to which reference is made?

    COUNTY AND BOROUGH POLICE FORCES (APPOINTMENTS).
    Mr. KENNEDYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to what extent the Home Office, under existing law and practice, intervenes to ratify, disapprove, or amend appointments made by provincial burgh and county police authorities?
    Mr. LLOYD: Under the Police Regulations, appointments to the post of chief officer of police are subject to the approval of the Secretary of State. Apart from this, my Department is concerned with appointments and promotions in county and borough police forces only so far as is necessary to ensure compliance with the general provisions of the Regulations.

    CIVIL SERVICE CLERICAL ASSOCIATION.
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is prepared to meet the secretary of the Civil Service Association for a discussion of matters in dispute?
    Mr. W. S. MORRISON: Elaborate procedure, including recourse to the Industrial Court, exists for dealing with questions affecting the emoluments of Civil servants and it is neither usual nor necessary for my right hon. Friend to receive an official of a staff association on such a matter.

    ESTATE DUTY (INSURANCE POLICIES).
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make available to the House the calculations and the assumptions by which it is estimated that a serious loss would be involved to the Exchequer were insurance policies taken out in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the express purpose of meeting Estate Duty payable at death to be taken at their surrender value on the day of death; and what is the estimated loss in a full year?
    Mr. W. S. MORRISON: In the Debate that took place on the Report stage of the Finance Bill on a Clause moved by my hon. Friend, I furnished estimates of the loss which the Revenue would suffer by valuing insurance policies at the surrender value before death instead of the actual amount of the policy moneys passing at death. While I am not prepared to supplement these estimates with particulars of the calculations on which they were based, I may point out that in cases where such policies as my hon. Friend has in mind are taken out, the charging of duty on an amount appreciably less than the moneys actually payable by the insurance company must result in a loss of revenue and the loss would be a growing one as the differential position enjoyed by life insurance policies in relation to other kinds of property would lead to conversion of other property into life insurance.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that neither Members of this House nor the general public, including experts, are able to understand how the figures which he gave have been arrived at; and what objection is there to placing in the Library or giving to myself or other hon. Members the calculations which enabled him to make a statement to the House which the House has so far been unable to verify?
    Mr. MORRISON: The objection is that any detailed calculations would necessarily involve figures relating to estates. The hon. Member's argument in the Debate and the argument underlying his Supplementary Question is clearly that such life insurance policies would be a net addition to savings of money and
    1670
    would be different from other savings, and that is an assumption which I cannot agree to be a valid one.

    ELECTRICITY SUPPLY (STANDARDISATION).
    Mr. PARKERasked the Minister of Transport whether the Electricity Commissioners have the necessary data from which to make reliable estimates of the cost of standardisation, in view of the importance of achieving standardisation of domestic consumers' voltage and system of supply, and the present inconvenience to the public due to the numerous voltages of both alternating and direct current; and, if not, will he request the Electricity Commissioners to acquire this data?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Captain Austin Hudson): This question was considered by the recent Committee on Electricity Distribution and pending the decision of the Government on the report of that Committee, my right hon. Friend does not feel justified in calling upon the Electricity Commissioners to incur the heavy expense of compiling further data.
    Mr. PARKER: When are the Government likely to come to a decision?
    Captain HUDSON: Perhaps the hon. Member will put a question down.
    Captain CAZALET: Have the Government yet considered the recommendations of the McGowan Report; and can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say how soon he will be in a position to make a statement on this subject?
    Captain HUDSON: The Government are considering the report now.
    Mr. G. HARDIE: Is it not a fact that when the 1926 Act was passed the nation was led to believe that that Measure would solve all these problems not only of standardisation but also of price, and bring about a reduction; and what has happened to that Measure since; and can the hon. and gallant Gentleman explain the ramp which has been taking place?
    Captain HUDSON: The 1926 Act dealt with the generation of electricity. This report deals with distribution.
    Mr. HARDIE: But is it not the case that the 1926 Act was intended to control distribution and that the Tory Government let that part of it go?

  TRANSPORT.

    TRAFFIC REGULATIONS (LONDON).
    Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Transport what roundabouts or one-way traffic schemes it is proposed to introduce in the near future in the London area; and will he give particulars?
    Captain HUDSON: I am sending the hon. Member a list.
    Mr. DAY: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether, according to the reports which he has received, the present system is working satisfactorily or whether it is proposed to discontinue it?

    PROPOSED FORTH AND TAY ROAD BRIDGES.
    Mr. KENNEDYasked the Minister of Transport whether any date has been fixed for hearing the representations of the local authorities in Scotland interested in the Forth and Tay bridge projects, and whether the provisions relating to the transfer of responsibility for the maintenance of main trunk roads will include consideration of the proposed road bridges?
    Captain HUDSON: My right hon. Friend awaits the local authorities' submission of their case before any question of a further deputation can be considered. The proposed road bridges are not included in the present schedule of trunk roads.
    Mr. MATHERS: When the local authorities' cases are received is it intended that they shall deal with both the Forth and Tay Bridges? Is not the Forth Bridge to be taken as a separate item?
    Captain HUDSON: This question asks about both the Forth and the Tay Bridges. The hon. Member is raising a rather different matter.

    INDIA (QUININE SUPPLIES).
    Sir REGINALD CRADDOCKasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware of the shortage of
    1672
    quinine purchased by the Provincial Governments in India from the Government of India supplies, on account of which the Government of India were obliged to sell their surplus stocks at less than cost price, while the amount of quinine available in the Provinces was inadequate to the requirements of the country for coping with malaria; and what steps have been taken to remedy the deficiency of the supplies of quinine available in the various Provinces?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Butler): I have no very recent information and will ask for a report. My hon. Friend is no doubt aware that last year the Government of India gave 45,000 lbs. of quinine to Provincial Governments for free distribution.

    YUGOSLAVIA.
    Mr. PARKERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is satisfied that the adequate compensation promised by this country was given to Yugoslavia for her loss of trade as a result of sanctions?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Government are satisfied that the steps taken by them in regard to Yoguslav trade adequately fulfilled their obligations under Proposal No. 5 adopted by the Co-ordination Committee at Geneva on 19th October, 1935.
    Mr. PARKER: Does not the Noble Lord think that the recent treaty between Yugoslavia and Germany indicated the Yugoslav Government's dissatisfaction with the compensation given?
    Viscount CRANBORNE: I should certainly not draw that deduction.

    BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION.
    Mr. MAINWARING(for Sir WILLIAM JENKINS) asked the Postmaster-General whether he will appoint one representative from Wales on the governors of the Broadcasting Corporation in the selection that is to be made; and whether he will appoint a person that is conversant with the aspirations and needs of Wales?
    Mr. GALLACHERasked the Postmaster-General whether, when two additional governors of the British Broadcasting Corporation are appointed under the Ullswater Committee's report, he will take steps to see that they are representative of organised working-class opinion in this country, at present unrepresented on the board of governors?
    Major TRYON: I have noted the suggestions made and will see that they are not lost sight of when the new appointments are under consideration. At the same time, I think I should point out that the Ullswater Committee confirmed the previous recommendation of the Crawford Committee that the governors should not be appointed as representatives of particular localities or interests.
    Mr. MAINWARING: Does not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman recognise that while his reference to special localities may justly be applied to districts in England, in dealing with Wales he is dealing with a separate nation?

    KENSINGTON GARDENS.
    Captain DOWER (for Major STOURTON)asked the Minister of Pensions, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he is aware of the unsatisfactory planning of the refreshment pavilion recently erected in Kensington Gardens; that the male staff room measuring, approximately, 15 feet by 9 feet, including lavatory accommodation, is used by a staff of 50; that the female staff room is similarly constructed for a staff of more than 30; and the kitchens so laid out that efficient service to the public is impossible; and whether he will cause alterations to be made forthwith?
    Mr. HUDSON: The First Commissioner is obliged to the hon. and gallant Member for bringing this matter to his notice. It appears that the refreshment pavilion has proved so attractive that, on fine warm days, the resources of the accommodation are strained to the utmost. The Department and the licensee are actively considering what steps can be taken to deal with the situation.
    Captain DOWER: Is not the accommodation very inadequate, and can the
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    hon. Gentleman say what steps his Department propose to take in this matter?
    Sir W. DAVISON: Could not the Department have assumed that the pavilion would be used in warm weather and not only during a chilly summer such as we are having; and what would have been the result in this case if we had had a warm summer?
    Mr. HUDSON: The new pavilion was an experiment, and no one expected that it would be so popular.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. DAVID ADAMSasked the Prime Minister whether he will make such arrangements in future as will avoid the necessity of submitting to the House at a late hour, as on the 8th instant, recommendations of the Import Duties Advisory Committee involving important fiscal and taxation changes?
The PRIME MINISTER: The Government arrange, so far as possible, to take Motions to approve Import Duties and similar Orders at a time most convenient to the House. It is, however, inevitable for a certain amount of business to be taken after Eleven o'Clock and especially at this period of the Session. The hon. Member is, of course, aware that these particular Motions are not subject to the Eleven o'Clock Rule.
Mr. ADAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman note that I have had the pleasure of making representations to him on the subject?
Mr. ATTLEE: May I ask the Leader of the House what business it is proposed to take to-night in the event of the Motion standing in the name of the Prime Minister to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule being carried?
The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Simon): We are asking the House to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule in order to obtain the Committee stage of the Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) [Money] Resolution, and the Committee and remaining stages of the Malta (Letters Patent) Bill. Afterwards we shall consider the Government of India Act and the Government of Burma Act

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Orders in Council, which are exempted business. There is on the Paper a number of small Orders which we are hoping to obtain if there is time, but I do not think any of them are in any way contentious. The Orders referred to are numbers 2 to 6—Firearms (Amendment) Bill [Lords], Post Office (Sites) (re-committed) Bill [Lords], Old Age Pensions Bill [Lords], National Health Insurance Bill [Lords], Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill [Lords].
Mr. GARRO JONES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the so-called non-contentious Orders give rise to the whole question of the Sea Fish Commission's report, that they are associated with the
Sea Fish Commission's report under the Statute by which they are made, and that that question will be raised if those Orders are attempted to be taken after Eleven o'Clock. In these circumstances will he assure us that they will not be taken at such a late hour?
Sir J. SIMON: I do not think I quite understand that question. Perhaps the hon. Member will speak to me privately about it.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Sir J. Simon.]
The House divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 96.

CATTLE INDUSTRY (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) [MONEY].
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.
[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That it is expedient to extend until the end of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-seven, the period during which cattle or carcases of cattle must have been sold in order that payments in respect thereof may be made out of the Cattle Fund under Section two of the Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1934, as amended by the Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) (No. 2) Act, 1935."—(King's Recommendation signified.)—[Mr. Elliot.]
3.55 p.m.
The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): The purpose of this Financial Resolution is to enable a Bill to be introduced which will continue the cattle subsidy on its present basis and at the present rate of 5s. per cwt. until not later than 31st July, 1937. As hon. Members will be aware from the statement of livestock policy made on 6th July, this is purely an interim Measure. Legislation to give effect to the permanent proposals of the Government, which will take the place of the present arrangements, will be introduced early next Session. Therefore, no special significance attaches to the selection of 31st July as the limiting date. It is the intention of the Government that a permanent scheme shall come into operation as early as possible, but it is considered that the extension of nine months will obviate any need for resorting to any further temporary enactments. Hon. Members will be familiar with the situation which necessitated the introduction in 1934 of a subsidy for beef producers in the United Kingdom, and also with the reasons for the successive extensions of the period of temporary assistance.
These matters were reviewed as recently as 29th June by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary when moving the Resolution approving the Order which extended the period to 31st October next. He also made it clear that the subsidy arrangements were operating so smoothly as not to require modification at this stage. It was further demonstrated that the price situation justified continued assistance. In fact, the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams)
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recognised that fact when he stated that he was voting against the subsidy, not because he felt that the producers of beef were not entitled to relief, but for other reasons. Therefore, we are all agreed with the necessity for the continued relief of producers of beef, and I hope that we shall be able to show that the measures we are now introducing are the most suitable.
Perhaps a few words of review of the administration of the Act will be desired by the Committee. The number of certification centres approved at 30th June,1936, was 801, of which 519 were in England, 101 in Wales, 110 in Scotland and 71 in Northern Ireland. These are the liveweight centres. They occur in 742 towns. The deadweight centres were 36 in 27 towns. It is a very widespread piece of organisation and it has been carried through so smoothly as to call for no further review at this stage. It is inevitable that, in a new scheme of this nature covering some 800 centres throughout the United Kingdom involving decisions not merely on matters of fact, which are easy, but on matters of opinion, such as whether an animal has attained the necessary standard of fatness, a uniform standard of grading should be difficult to secure. That, of course, has been a matter of comment by agriculturists throughout the country—as to whether in fact the grading scheme is sufficiently uniform as between one centre and another.
The Cattle Committee directed their attention to securing uniformity as far as possible. For that purpose they appointed 28 part-time area supervisors and five full-time inspectors. The part-time area supervisors are livestock auctioneers nominated by their organisations; and here I would pay a tribute to the co-operation of the livestock auctioneers and the smoothness with which they have enabled us to operate this Measure. The five full-time inspectors are officers of wide experience of the meat trade, whose especial qualification is an ability to estimate killing-out standards of cattle. It is true to say that on the whole the graders have done their work with the approval of the agricultural community as a whole. It is also true that no undue expense has been incurred in remunerating them. Of course the local expenses of certification are not charged upon the Cattle Fund but are

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borne by the producers. The certifying officer (an auctioneer) is empowered to collect 1s. 4d. per animal, of which he retains 1s. for his expenses and pays 2d. per animal to each of the other two members of the certifying authority, that is to say to the butcher and the farmer. I do not think that the sum of 2d. per animal can be regarded as extravagant remuneration.
I do not think it is necessary to restate in detail the case for the present Measure. Some six days of Parliamentary time have been spent at one period or another in passing the original Act and the extensions. The hon. Member for Don Valley made some slightly satirical references to the extensions, but these extensions are necessary because of the intricate nature of the problem and the close way in which it is bound up with the necessity, first of all, for improving consumption in these islands, and, secondly, of throwing no burden upon international trade which would cause a falling off in our overseas trade. That was not an easy task. I make no apology whatever for the time which these negotiations have taken. I was astonished to see in one or two newspapers a complaint that the sums which had been expended by this House by way of subsidy would not be recovered by means of import duties on meat. I cannot suppose for a moment that that charge will be brought in this House by the hon. Member for Don Valley or by the right hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander). In fact, it is very odd to see the quarters from which these charges have come. A demand by the "Manchester Guardian" that the duty shall be far higher than that proposed by the Government is one of the oddest proposals that this House has ever seen.
Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen any statement in any newspaper that I have said that the levy ought to be a high levy?
Mr. ELLIOT: No. The charge to which I have referred would not be repeated in this House, although ill-informed people seem to have made it in the country. I think it is worth while to review the general situation. I am asked for instance, whether this assistance is going to the producers or whether it is
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being intercepted by the middleman. It is clear from the course of prices that whatever may have been the case in the early months of the subsidy scheme, the subsidy is now passing entirely to the producers. The price of fat cattle was 38s. 1d. in August, 1934, that is the month before the operation of the subsidy, and it was 38s. 0½d. in the first week of July, 1936, that is after some two years of subsidy. The original fear that the subsidy was merely being secured by the middleman instead of inuring to the benefit of the producer is dispelled by that figure. The course of prices since the end of June has altered merely to the extent occasioned by the usual seasonal changes. Prices normally fall during the summer as grass-fed cattle begin to come in.
There are one or two general points which it may be desirable for me to review. The hon. Member for Don Valley criticised us on the last occasion when the extension proposal was before the House because of the delay by the Government in producing a long-term scheme. He said that the delay had upset the balance of agriculture. The long-term scheme having now been introduced, I hope we shall have the support of the hon. Member for Don Valley and his friends. The hon. Member suggested that the balance of agriculture would be disturbed I think the balance was disturbed before the announcement of policy was made two years ago. It was due to the fall in the price of cattle to uneconomic levels. The subsidy has tended to correct that balance, and the Government's measures have been justified. Another criticism of the hon. Member for Don Valley was that this levy on imported meat was a levy on lower priced meat, and that it would hit the poor. I have gone into that matter and it would he much more accurate to say that it would bear on the southern part of the island rather than on the northern, and the distressed areas which are mainly in the North. It is not true to say that a levy which bears more particularly on the southern part of the island is an unjust levy and that an injustice is done to the southern part of the island. Suppose that any interruption whatever took place in the supply of overseas imported meat, then the southern half of the island, London in particular, would demand, and rightly

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so, its due share of the supply of home beef. The maintenance of a supply of home-produced meat in these islands is of as much importance to London and the Home counties as to any other part of these islands, and the fact that they rely at present to a greater extent than the rest of the country on imported meat is no argument for allowing the home meat either to be forced out of existence or to be raised to a higher price in order to keep prices of imported meat low.
It has been suggested that marketing schemes should be introduced before any long-term policy is brought into existence, or as an integral part of a longterm policy. The connection between the organisation of marketing and the import situation does not require any emphasis. The first thing necessary is to have an industry of fat stock production in existence. The organisation of the industry must have the co-operation of, and if possible must be initiated by, those within the industry itself. Until farmers see some prospect of permanence in their industry they will be disinclined to go in for any measures of long-term organisation, but, given permanence, I am sure they will not be backward in initiating and co-operating in schemes of organisation. It was suggested by the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. R. Acland) that in Scotland the organisation of marketing has gone a great deal further than in England. No one can say, however, that the Scottish fat stock industry is quite happy at the present time; no one can say that even with these great reforms there is no necessity for measures of assistance.
It has been said that the subsidy is a gift to farmers. The charge is made that lavish assistance is being made available for the agricultural industry, and it is added that in some way what is called a bounty is being heaped upon producers of fat stock. I wonder whether hon. Members who believe that statement follow the course of prices at all and realise how great the advantages to the consumers have been in the last two years, how surely the policy of the Government has advantaged the ordinary people of the country and how the supplies of meat have increased.
Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Government are responsible for reducing the price of meat?
Mr. ELLIOT: Certainly. No one suggests that they are not. Does any hon. Member deny that there has been a reduction in the price of meat?
Mr. WILLIAMS: My memory is good enough for me to remember that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, standing at that Box and comparing imports of meat in 1931 with the imports of meat in 1930 and previous years, declared that it was a cardinal principle in Government policy to regulate imports so as to sustain prices and get them back to their original level.
Mr. ELLIOT: Has the hon. Member forgotten nothing and learned nothing since 1930? Has he forgotten that we are now discussing a subsidy Act for meat? Who does he think gets the benefit of the subsidy for meat? The consumers. This is a consumers' subsidy. [Laughter.] Hon. Members laugh, but that is our contention and we shall prove it and maintain it. This is a Measure for the assistance of the consumer. I am glad to hear that cry opposite, because it explains the position of hon. Members. They would not suggest that the subsidy to the building industry was not a subsidy to the users of houses, who were continually pressing for more and more subsidies as a means of increasing the supply of cheap houses. Seeing that hon. Members deny my statement I shall blow them out of the water in two seconds. Since the subsidy was introduced the consumers of this country have been given £50,000,000 sterling. Does any hon. Member deny that? It has been given by the producers of meat in this country and overseas. During the two years since the cattle subsidy came into operation the fall in the prices of beef as compared with 1929 and 1930 prices has meant a total saving of more than £50,000,000 to the consumers in this country.
Mr. BARNES: What we should like to know is on which leg the right hon. Gentleman is going to rest. A moment ago he was proving that the producer was getting the benefit, and having made that argument he now proceeds to prove that the consumer is getting the benefit. He cannot have it both ways.
Mr. ELLIOT: My difficulty with hon. Members opposite is that I have to explain so many elementary things. I said, as every practical agriculturist knows, that unless that assistance had been given

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to home production of meat those low prices could not have continued. Does he deny that?
Mr. BARNES: Yes.
Mr. ELLIOT: It will not take me long to shatter his case either. The whole of our case rests upon this: that the increase in home meat supplies which has taken place in recent years has, as again every practical agriculturist knows, begun to fall off. The number of young animals shown in the 1935 4th June returns, the importance of which the hon. Member for Don Valley well knows, shows a decline; therefore, unless assistance had been given, and unless that assistance be increased, as it is going to be increased by the Government, the supply of home produced meat could not have been kept up. The consumer has exacted such contributions from the producer as very nearly to force the producer out of business. That is common ground with everybody. I was about to give the amount of those exactions. Those exactions come to more than £50,000,000; the exaction in the case of home produced meat alone is £23,000,000. Does the hon. Member deny any of those figures?
Mr. BARNES: I do not deny the figures, but I am denying your deductions from them.
Mr. ELLIOT: The fact that the price of beef has gone down to uneconomic levels is shown by the fact that the production of beef is beginning to fall off. The retail prices of beef have been so low that consumers have in fact enjoyed very great advantages. Those are deductions which I do not think the hon. Member or anybody else will be able to deny.
Mr. RICHARDS: Does not the right hon. Gentleman attribute any of this fall to the fact that the world prices have fallen? The subsidy, as a matter of fact, has done very little.
Mr. ELLIOT: Of course the fall is due to the fact that world prices have fallen. The ignorance of hon. Members opposite is shared by many prominent economists —[Interruption]—including, I agree, ex-Ministers of State. The fact that world prices have fallen and that the cost of living has come down in this country is due to the policy of the Government in allowing the cheap world
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supplies to come free to the consumer in this country. Of course everybody knows that to be true.
Mr. ACLAND: The catastrophic fall in prices took place in 1929, 1930, 1931 and 1932, and the Government's policy was not introduced until 1932 and 1933, and the rise has come since then.
Mr. ELLIOT: I am always pleased to be interrupted by the hon. Member, because he honestly applies his mind to the subject, unlike some other hon. Members who merely apply the party whip to the subject. I hope to be able to prove to the hon. Member that there is nothing in what he has said which is in any way inconsistent with the case I am advancing. The position is this: There was a great fall in world prices and that great fall would certainly have extinguished producers in this country unless remedial measures had been taken. The remedial measures took the form of a very large subsidy which has allowed the producer of beef in this country to continue in production while allowing the benefit of cheap beef to get through to the consumer. That cheap meat was not automatic is shown by the fact that in the majority of countries throughout the world these cheap supplies have not been allowed to get through to the consumer, and prices there have been maintained far above world prices and the prices on the British market. This is the very grammar of the international situation, and I shall be astonished to hear any hon. or right hon. Member attempt to disprove any of those facts from inside the House. I am sure the right hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) will not attempt to disprove them.
Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I shall in due course.
Mr. ELLIOT: The right hon. Member is going to try to disprove the multiplication table in due course, and we shall all listen with great delight at his attempts to do so.
Mr. BENJAMIN SMITH: But you will handle the division.
Mr. ELLIOTWe shall handle the division as we handled the election, so as to get a satisfactory majority, and we shall have no difficulty in proving our

1701
case. I shall be interested in the course of the argument in the rest of the Debate. Our case is perfectly clear and definite, that in this country, and almost alone in this country, the supplies of low priced foodstuffs from the world market have been allowed to inure to the benefit of consumers in this country by means of Government policy. Furthermore, we say that if the great fall in the price of the home produced article has to be borne by the home producer alone, then the home producer will go out of business, home agriculture will come very largely to a standstill, and eventually the price of foodstuffs will rise so that the consumer will not even get the advantage of this fall in prices. The assistance which is now being given is only a very small fraction of the benefit which the home consumer has got from the fall in prices. We say, furthermore, that the assistance which is given will need to be increased in later years, so as to obviate what is now taking place, a diminution in the supplies of home produced meat. That is the case we make, and I do not think that case can be shaken. I shall await with great interest to see whether hon. Members succeed in doing so in the course of the Debate.
Mr. HENDERSON STEWART: On a point of Order. The Measure we are now discussing is admittedly a part of the general policy which the Minister announced a few days ago, and I should like to ask whether we are to be permitted to discuss that wider policy or, if not, how closely are we to be confined to the precise terms of the Motion?
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think it is quite obvious that one of the reasons for the introduction of this particular Motion is to prepare the way for the wider policy to be carried out, and, therefore, it must be to a large extent in Order to discuss the wider policy.
4.24 p.m.
Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Hon. Members will understand, after listening to the Minister's speech, why the National Government won the last Election. His speech to-day was on similar lines to the speeches that succeeded in 1935 and 1931. For quite a long time during his speech to-day I found it extremely difficult to follow him. First he claimed that the
1702
Government had been responsible for reducing the cost of living tremendously. If Governments are to be judged by the fall in the price of certain commodities during their term of office, then the Labour Government was the best Government that this country has ever had, though the right hon. Gentleman would not subscribe to that view. We recognise that during the past six or seven years there has been a change in the price level, but if the right hon. Gentleman got away with the speech which he made last Wednesday night he cannot expect to do that sort of thing every time. He made reference to my last observations on these cattle emergency proposals. I said about three weeks ago that this was the fifth time these emergency proposals had been continued, always for a purely temporary period. In July, 1934, we extended the period of subsidy till March, 1935. In July, 1935, we extended it to June, 1936. In July, 1936, we extended it to July, 1937. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell us whether these annual July nine-month subsidy periods are chosen expressly for the purpose of enabling the livestock producer to get on with the good work during the summer months, knowing that the Government are behind him. I cannot help feeling that, despite the delicacy and difficulty of the negotiations, there is some definite political significance in these July nine-monthly emergency proposals.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that no hon. Member sitting on these benches has contenanced the levy proposal to which he referred. We have said that if the English producer of high quality meat is unable to secure an economic price through the butchers' shops it is not the duty of this or any other Government to impose heavier burdens on the poorest section of the community so that the well-to-do section get their high quality meat at an uneconomic price. We have always stood there, and we shall be there when the right hon. Gentleman comes forward with his full-term policy. It is curious how the right hon. Gentleman's emergency proposals have a happy knack of becoming the permanent policy of this Government, and it was the same with the last Government, which was made up very largely of the same sort of Members. The great question of 1896 was purely a temporary proposal. There was another temporary

1703
proposal in 1923, and a permanent proposal in 1929, when the last vestige of rates on agricultural land and buildings went. The sugar subsidy of 1925 was a purely temporary Measure, but the right hon. Gentleman has adopted it as his own for a long-term period. The Wheat Act of 1932 was to be a five-year Act, but the right hon. Gentleman has already intimated that it is going on for ever.
On Wednesday last he boasted in this House that while the Labour Government were in office the fall in the number of workpeople, or in the output of wheat, had gone down by no less than 10 per cent., and that during the term of office of the National Government the output had increased by not less than 50 per cent. That is a really marvellous accomplishment on the part of the National Government. He went on to say that not only was that the case with wheat, but that during the term of office of the Labour Government bacon products went down by some 20 per cent. Since the National Government came into being in 1931 the production of bacon had gone up by 25 per cent. These things are strictly correct and undeniable. What the right hon. Gentleman did not tell the Committee was that the increased wheat output of 50 per cent. has cost the consumers in this country between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000 per annum, and that the increase of output of bacon has cost the consumers of bacon about £8,000,000 per annum. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to suggest that that is a really marvellous accomplishment to which effect could only have been given by a National Government, he is stretching his imagination quite a long way. If the right hon. Gentleman would put £14,000,000 into the hands of 20 hon. Members in any part of the House, they could probably do a great deal more with coal, cotton, steel or any commodity produced in this country, having that money to start with. What could we not produce and what increase could we not get?
Mr. BOOTHBY: Why did the Labour Government continue rating relief, and this Measure?
Mr. WILLIAMS: Because the Labour Government were in office for only a few months, and never had the power which the right hon. Gentleman has. They
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suffered from the other thing which the right hon. Gentleman has pleaded that he is suffering from, the collapse of world prices. The hon. Member must have known when he put the question what the answer was, quite as well as I can give it to him across the Floor of the Committee. The question of the increased wheat output—
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think we had better keep to cattle.
Mr. WILLIAMS: I mentioned that only as an indication of the line which the Government always travel when they start emergency proposals. We have temporary beef subsidies now for the sixth time, and they are now to be continued until July next year. The permanent subsidy is to be £5,000,000 per annum. I recall that the right hon. Gentleman issued a document in 1935, in regard to the Government's long-term livestock policy. On page 5, in paragraph 19, the document declares:
"It must be understood that they have no intention either of continuing the subsidy indefinitely or of acquiescing in the ruin of the livestock industry."
Already the right hon. Gentleman has changed his mind. He has decided to have the subsidy indefinitely, and his long-term subsidy is temporarily increased from £3,000,000 to £5,000,000 per annum, which is contrary to paragraph 19, which I have just read. I can quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman can argue that declaration out of existence, but I am looking at it as a plain, ordinary man, reading plain ordinary words in a common sense way. He has already declared that the subsidy is to be continued indefinitely, so we never quite know where he stands.
Those who watch Government policy are interested to know exactly where the Government stand in these matters. I do not want to imply that if my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander), myself and two dozen others, were engaged in the negotiations, we should have made either a better or a worse show of it, but I suggest that the Government have turned their emergency and temporary policies into permanent direct or indirect subsidies, and have clothed them with the dignity of long-term policies calculated to help agriculture in this country.

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I am bound to confess the difficulty I have in opposing an extension of this subsidy of £3,900,000 per annum. If the right hon. Gentleman subsequently can justify a subsidy of £5,000,000 per annum, his job this afternoon is only two-thirds as difficult as it will be after the summer Recess. One finds it difficult to argue against this subsidy to-day, if there is to be justification for the long-term policy. I feel justified in asking the right hon. Gentleman one or two questions, which will probably provoke another of those great orations from him, perhaps on Friday of this week, or, if not, after the summer Recess. He has never gone beyond this stage, when addressing the House upon the depression in the livestock industry. He has declared that the price in 1929 was (a), and that the price in 1935–36 was (b) and he is satisfied, by comparing those two prices, that there is a legitimate demand for a subsidy in one form or another to maintain beef production in this country. I would ask him, or the Parliamentary Secretary, a question to which either of them ought to be ready to reply: "What is a fair price for beef?"
Has the right hon. Gentleman invited anyone from the agricultural colleges, where they have demonstration farms, to give him some advice and guidance as to the really effective price for beef? I have listened to the Debates on cattle subsidies, but I never recall the right hon. Gentleman or the Parliamentary Secretary coming down to tin-tacks. The right hon. Gentleman said on one occasion last year that we had now got down to realities, but I have not yet noticed the realities. I repeat what I said. Despite what some of my hon. Friends might think, if it can be proved, upon the basis of ascertained fact, that the producers of beef as such are entitled to assistance, either directly or indirectly, we should not stand in the way of that assistance if, by withholding it, a calamity in the agricultural industry would result. Having gone so far we are entitled, on behalf of the consumers and on behalf of the producers of other commodities, to demand to know the exact basis upon which the right hon. Gentleman calculates a fair price. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider the farmer who is producing wheat, on which he receives a considerable subsidy, sugar, upon which he receives also a considerable subsidy,
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and milk, upon which he is receiving an indirect subsidy, and who produces also some beef; what would be a fair price to that farmer?
Would the farmer receiving three different subsidies in respect of three different commodities, who sells beef more as a by-product than as a major part of his output, be entitled to the same subsidy as a farmer who produces practically nothing but livestock? The Committee is entitled to know. No hon. Member has yet been told, but it is high time, for the subsidy means that not less than £9,000,000 will have gone into this branch of the agricultural industry, although the right hon. Gentleman admits that we are just a halfpenny per cwt. worse off than when he started. I do not charge him with the responsibility for that, but I am pointing out that there is obviously not much improvement between the figures 38s. 1d. and 38s. 0½d. The right hon. Gentleman may argue that the Government have put a bottom into prices. I suggest that the beef branch of the industry has not materially improved since the subsidy commenced. We shall have given £9,000,000 in July of next year, and until and unless some really effective change takes place we shall be in July, 1937, where we were in 1934.
We are entitled to know something more about what is efficiency. The right hon. Gentleman makes no bones about his desire for efficiency. In the White Paper he says that the Government's policy must be safeguarding, with due regard to efficiency, the home industry. That is perfectly proper, but on page 5 of the same document, he tells us that the Government's policy is, among other things,
"to assure to the efficient home producer a reasonable return."
The right hon. Gentleman stands up here and asks us, "Why worry about efficiency? It is the duty of the Government first of all to preserve the industry, and leave efficiency to look after itself later on." That may be good Tory politics, but I am not sure that it is good National politics, or that it is sound economics. I suggest that the Livestock Reorganisation Commission, which reported in 1934, has been pretty well ignored by the Department of Agriculture. Despite the fact that during the two years which have elapsed

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we have been giving a subsidy throughout the whole period, what did the Livestock Reorganisation Commission say? On the assumption that the benefit of the higher prices would not accrue to the producers without greater marketing efficiency, the commission outlined schemes for marketing reorganisation, and for the further provision of market intelligence.
They said that the faults of the existing system, excessive numbers of markets, auctioneers and dealers, the inefficient use of methods of sale, the lack of market intelligence and of knowledge of supplies of prices, the blind movements of stock in search of a reasonable market, the fluctuations in supplies and the credit problem, were common to both the fat and store trade. That is an extract from the Agricultural Register, on pages 140 and 141, summarising the recommendations of the Livestock Reorganisation Commission. When in 1935 we invited the right hon. Gentleman to demand from the beef producers a quid pro quo in the shape of organisation, the right hon. Gentleman used almost identical words with what he said to-day. On 26th June, 1935, referring to the Livestock Commission, he said:
"The scheme is before agriculturists, and they are examining it, but, clearly before they know where they stand as to that scheme, they will need to know where they stand with regard to the negotiations which are going on, and it would be unreasonable to ask them to come to a conclusion beforehand."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th June, 1935; col. 1170, Vol. 303.]
It is unreasonable to ask beef producers to come to a decision with regard to marketing organisation and so forth until the Government's long-term policy is known, and they know that for all time and for ever they are going to receive an annual subsidy, either direct from the Treasury or through the collection of a levy.
The right hon. Gentleman's suggestion, if I understand him aright, is that, as a result of the low prices, there was a danger that beef producers would go out of existence, that that would be a national calamity, and that therefore we must do something to put a bottom into the price; and a bottom was put into the price by means of an emergency subsidy. That subsidy has been con-
1708
tinued from time to time; it is to be further continued to-day, and £9,000,000 of Government funds are involved. I do not object to that as such if it can be justified, but I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is justified in declaring that it is unreasonable to ask the recipients of £9,000,000 of public funds to put their own industrial house in order. I do not think that that is an unfair proposition at all, and yet that is the Minister's point of view to-day, for he still declares that it would be unreasonable to ask the farmers to put their house in order until the long-term policy is known and is actually passed.
I asked the right hon. Gentleman, when he announced his long-term policy, under what authority did he apply regulations to imports of beef and that kind of thing. He quoted the Marketing Act of 1933. That is perfectly true, but when the right hon. Gentleman made that reply to me he justified every statement that we made in this House and in Committee when we said that, if someone whispered in Aberdeen that some marketing scheme might or not be thought of in Torquay, that would be justification for the right hon. Gentleman applying the weapon of regulation. He has been applying the weapon of regulation and restriction ever since the power was put into his hands, as the result of the Ottawa Agreement, to 10 per cent. of Argentine imports of chilled meat and 35 per cent. of their frozen meat. He has been applying regulation ever since, and he knows exactly what the imports are today and how they compare with what they were in 1931. We need not argue about that. But I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman is justified in using the weapon of regulation at all beyond the Ottawa Act unless and until the practical step or steps are taken with regard to a marketing scheme for livestock. He knows all about the question of market rings, about how the farmers are "diddled," how they are exploited mercilessly by these mercenaries who step in between them and the consumers.
We who speak from this Box or from these Benches do not want to to go out from this House that we are not as sympathetic with the farmer as the right hon. Gentleman himself, but the right hon. Gentleman cannot claim to be sym-

1709
pathetic with the farmers merely by giving them millions of pounds of other people's money unconditionally. Even the Tariff Advisory Committee, when they received an application from the steel producers in this country, told them, "We will do certain things on certain conditions, and we will give you a time limit." Not so the right hon. Gentleman. He says: "Give them the money, and never mind organisation. Let that remain for the remote future; do not worry about it." Is not that exactly the right hon. Gentleman's standpoint? We cannot go with him that far. We want proof of what is a fairly reasonable thing for agriculture, whether it be wheat, or meat, or milk, or bacon, or anything else. We shall be willing to concede to the farmer what we think he is entitled to, but we will prevent the sieve between the farmer and the landowner, so that Treasury funds do not filter through to that destination. We are unwilling, and I think quite rightly unwilling, to give to any branch of agriculture millions of pounds unconditionally, without its putting its own industrial house in order.
Then I think I am entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in 1936, he is still satisfied with what may or may not have been done in Leicester with regard to slaughtering. The Noble Lord who used to be the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture was the Chairman of the Slaughtering Committee, or whatever it may be termed, whose duty was to examine slaughtering methods in this country. Their recommendations have been available to hon. Members now for over 12 months. Last year the right hon. Gentleman was satisfied because someone decided to build a big slaughterhouse in Leicester, but that is not sufficient; it is necessary to go beyond that; when the committee tell us that there are 36,000 proprietor-manager butchers and about 16,000 slaughterhouses, there is room for great improvement. It does not matter whether the change takes place rapidly or less rapidly, so long as a change is taking place, but it ought to be taking place simultaneously with the assistance that has been or is being given by the Government to bolster up this side of the agricultural industry.
I shall have no hesitation in voting against the right hon. Gentleman to-day,
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and I can square my vote against the continuance of this subsidy unconditionally just as easily as the right hon. Gentleman can square his vote when he goes into an agricultural area. I know he is a very good friend of farmers, and anyone who knows anything about the political balance-sheet of farming knows that they are bound to recognise that the Minister is a very good friend of agriculture; but I am not so sure that the right hon. Gentleman is really, taking the long view, the best friend that agriculture could have. He made some statement in the course of his speech this afternoon about upsetting the balance of agriculture; but the National Governments between them have upset the balance of agriculture. When they gave between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000 per annum for a commodity which forms an infinitesimal proportion of the value of the total output they started to unsettle the balance of agriculture. When they gave another subsidy or remission of £5,000,000 for an infinitesimal proportion of the output, again they tended to unbalance the industry. If they had given one-half or one-third of what they gave to sugar and wheat to livestock with marketing and slaughtering conditions attached, they would have stabilised the most important part of British agriculture. They have left livestock and beef to the last, and, therefore, they can be rightly charged with having unbalanced agriculture.
We know that this nine months' extension will be carried, and we know that the long-term policy, if the Government are still in existence, will be carried, but we shall still maintain that, where public funds go to any industry, they ought to go with definite, specific conditions, and it is because no specific conditions are attached, and because the Government have completely upset the balance of agriculture, that we are convinced that they are barking up the wrong tree.
4.55 p.m.
Mr. LAMBERT: No one can complain of the merit of the skilful debating speech to which we have just listened from the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), and, if I take some exception to his remarks a little later, perhaps he will forgive me. At the moment we have before us some very alarmist statements from Ministers about defence. The

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Secretary of State for War stated that conditions were as bad as they were in 1914, and only last week the First Lord of the Admiralty said that we were within six weeks' danger of starvation. These are alarmist statements, and, therefore, the hon. Member for Don Valley, must think, not only of questions of agriculture, but of the defence of the country—a matter of very deep importance to all of us, on whichever side of the House we sit. These warnings are really necessary or they are alarmist, but I cannot help thinking that the Government have every reason for endeavouring to increase the productivity of British agriculture, which really means increasing the defensive power of the country. We have an armaments drive to-day, and I suggest that it would be wise on the part of hon. Gentlemen opposite to have a food production drive. We have the material at hand.
I am sure that no Member would say that the cultivators of the land in this country are not as skilled as any cultivators in the world. They produce the finest crops; they produce the finest cattle. When the hon. Member opposite suggests that they should put their house in order, I say that they have done it pretty well, because British pedigree cattle go all over the world. We have some of the most skilled men in our agricultural labourers—some of the very best men. They cannot be replaced. In my judgment, the agricultural worker is one of the most skilled men in the whole country. I say that here, and I would say it in any industrial constituency. I would ask the Labour party, because, after all, at some time they will be responsible for the government of the country, to consider what has happened in the case of those absolutely irreplaceable men, the agricultural workers. In 1921, their number was 996,000; in 1935 it was 783,000. There has been a decrease of 20 per cent. I heard the hon. Member for Don Valley questioning the Minister to-day about wages and wages inspectors. If agriculture were in a profitable condition, there would be no need to ask questions about wages, for wages would naturally rise. If two masters are clamouring for one man, wages will rise. The very fact that agricultural labourers are drifting away into the towns shows that agriculture is not
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prosperous. Therefore, although I feel that we must be grateful to the Government for being the only Government that has taken any interest in agricultural matters—
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: In view of the fact that this Debate is on a Resolution introduced in order to give the Minister time to introduce his long-term policy, I pointed out earlier that a good deal of latitude would be allowed, but I must remind the Committee that we are not in Committee of Supply on Agriculture, but on a specific Motion.
Mr. LAMBERT: I shall fall in with your very reasonable criticism of my remarks. I will take the question of the livestock industry, and here I must complain somewhat of the action of the Government. We have had, as was stated by the hon. Member for Don Valley, White Papers in 1932, 1933, 1934 and 1935. There has been a long period of gestation, and from the point of view of agriculture I do not take the view of the hon. Member—I think that the Government are not going far enough in this question of agricultural production. What did my right hon. Friend announce the other day in his statement? That we are to have a regulated market. Then there is to be an Empire League Council. Then there is to be an International Meat Conference. Then there is to be a subsidy not exceeding £5,000,000. Are not these rather insignificant mice after such a long period of gestation? I have very little faith in Government regulation.
Mr. MacLAREN: Only in Government money.
Mr. LAMBERT: I do not understand why the hon. Member says that.
Mr. MacLAREN: The right hon. Gentleman says he has very little faith in Government regulation of imports. He seems to have great confidence in getting Government money.
Mr. LAMBERT: I do not want Govrnment money. I want fair play for the industry, and we are as much entitled to demand it as the hon. Member is entitled to demand fair play for any other industry. I do not want doles. I resent them entirely. We are told over and over again that agriculture is having doles. I want only fair play, and agriculturists are not getting fair play. [An

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HON. MEMBER: "They are getting doles!"] That is not fair play. It is impossible, in my judgment, to forecast the supplies which will come into the country. I do not like regulation of imports. The White Paper published in March, 1935, stated that overseas producers were to be left free to regulate their exports to this market themselves. Now the Government are going to take a hand. I am sorry for it, because I do not think our Government can deal with this matter by regulation of imports. I am sorry that the Government policy of last year has been reversed. With regard to prices of livestock, the fall since 1925 has been calamitous. How can anyone expect, with expenses as high as they are and increasing, that the agriculturist can produce at the prices of to-day? The price of fat cattle in 1925 was £2 12s. 7d. a cwt. and it fell to 31s. 10d. last year. How can the agriculturist go on? How can he pay wages with such a calamitous fall as that? These are official figures. Suppose you ruin the producers and have to rely entirely upon foreign foodstuffs, what will be the prices that the oversea producer will charge if there is no competition from home products? We had that shown very clearly in Canada in 1929, when they did not hesitate to keep up the price of wheat. Even when it comes to Dominion preference, there is no sentiment in dollars and cents. They are out to get as much as they can, and so would all of us.
The hon. Member for Don Valley talked about marketing organisations. Marketing schemes cannot succeed until there is regulation of imports. The Milk Marketing Board is going on but it is not, and never can be, a success until imports are regulated. We have too foreign control. I am amazed that London Members do not look more closely into the supply of meat coming into Smithfield. That, again, largely is under foreign control. It is not only that oversea production is coming here, but foreign shippers are bringing it. The hon. Gentleman asked what is the cost of production. I think it wise that the Ministry should institute an inquiry into cost. The sale price is unreal. It is less than the cost price, and agriculturists are going out of the beef trade. I myself should like to find out the cost of production. I should be in favour of a tariff which would raise the price commensurate with the cost of the article.
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The hon. Gentleman said that the iron and steel industry had 33⅓ per cent. on condition that they reorganised themselves, but that went long ago. There is no question of the reorganisation of the iron and steel industry. Why cannot we have the same remedy for agriculture as we have for iron and steel? I understand that my right hon. Friend is going to admit Dominion products free, and that there is to be a duty of ¾d. on Argentine meat. Why are Dominion products to be admitted free? The Dominions tax our manufactures. It will not be a good advertisement for Imperial trade if you get the hostility of the agricultural interest.
I do not think anyone quite realises the competition that we have in cattle production. There are low wages in Argentina. I do not know what the wages are in Australia. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are higher than here!"] Perhaps the hon. Member will give us the information later. I know that Argentina, Australia and New Zealand have depreciated their currencies, and that gives them a considerable advantage. Is there any other industry which has to compete with low wages and depreciated currencies? Would the coal industry permit low wage coal to come into the country? We agriculturists, especially the meat producers, are asked to do all sorts of things. We may not tax Dominion meat, or we may not tax all imported meat with a preference to the Dominions. We have to provide food to feed the bodies of our people, and we have to provide tithes to save their souls. We had a Debate last week on malnutrition. One of the greatest imaginable advantages would be a supply of fresh home grown meat. We get any garbage that comes from abroad that is labelled "Food."
I ask the Government to reconsider this policy. It is inadequate to give a fair deal to agriculturists. I am sure there is no one more genuinely anxious to do justice to agriculture than my right hon. Friend. If there is one Minister in the Government who should have a full salary it is he. He is the hardest-worked Minister of the whole lot, and we owe him a deep debt of gratitude. I hope that his permanent policy will give us more than the present policy will produce. We accept all we can get, hut we do not think it is enough. If

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hon. Members opposite would go to agricultural constituencies they would find out exactly what is happening there. There is no industry that is so uncertain as agriculture. I came away from Devonshire this week-end, and there are hundreds of acres of very fine food for cattle absolutely spoilt because of the rain.
Mr. MacLAREN: Because of what?
Mr. LAMBERT: The rain.
Mr. MacLAREN: I thought you said rent!
Mr. LAMBERT: No, rent does not spoil hay. The hon. Member must learn a little more about agriculture. One of the troubles we have is gentlemen who profess to teach us, but know nothing whatever about the industry. I regret that the Government are not giving us a more satisfactory policy. I believe if my right hon. Friend had had a free hand he would have done better. The policy of the Government does not and will not satisfy the agricultural industry, and I hope it may be remedied at no distant date.
5.14 p.m.
Mr. W. ROBERTS: We had a very interesting speech from the Minister, but I was wondering whether the farmers would regard it as a threat or a promise. It seemed to me that the right hon. Gentleman explained in the first place the benefit that the subsidy was going to confer upon farmers, and explained, secondly, that the policy of the Government had succeeded in keeping down the price of beef. I could understand his saying that he had refrained from certain action which might have raised the price of beef and that therefore the consumer ought to be thankful to him, but how precisely a policy of quotas and subsidies is to keep the price of beef down, and how the positive action that the Government have taken had benefited the consumer, I did not altogether understand. He said, again, that a tariff would raise the price of beef all round and that a subsidy would not, but apart from that fact, and from having refrained from putting on a tariff, I cannot understand in what way the policy of the Government has benefited the consumer and how, in benefiting the consumer, it has also con-
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ferred these great advantages on the farmer. I think that it was not clear to other hon. Members in the Committee besides myself.
I want to examine for a few minutes—I do not think this is the opportunity for discussing the long-term policy of the Government—the situation as it is at the present time. Again, I did not understand the statement of the Minister when he gave the figures of 38s. 1d. and 38s. 0½d. as the comparative prices of beef. I find, basing my statements on the Agricultural Register issued by the Oxford Economic Research Institute that the price of beef to the farmer between 1929 and 1935 had fallen by 31 per cent. I believe, from my knowledge of agricultural conditions, that that is the trouble to-day. I have often heard or read speeches of the Minister in which he has pointed out that it is a question of wholesale prices to the farmer. According to my information, the fall of 31 per cent. in the price of beef included a fall of 8 per cent. last year. One's Protectionist friends always conclude that this sort of thing is due to some great increase in imports, and therefore I looked at the figures to find out if that were the case. In 1929–30 the total imports into this country were 12,866,000 cwts., and in 1935 they were 12,511,000 cwts. Imports had gone down in that period, as had also the price.
Captain DOWER: Imports from all sources?
Mr. ROBERTS: Imports from all sources of beef alone, not of other meat. They had gone down by 300,000 cwt. Home consumption has increased to some extent, but I do not think that that has been due to the encouraging effect of the subsidy, but largely to the by-product of milk, in other words, cow beef, which is a low grade beef and frequently compares in price with some of the lower qualities of imported beef. Consumption per head of the population has gone down. In 1926 consumption was 72 lbs. per head, and in 1935 it was 62.8 lbs. per head of the population, so that consumption has gone down practically 10 lbs. in nine years. That is a difficulty which the producer of beef nowadays has to face. It has partly been due, in the last few years, to lower purchasing power, especially in the north of England, where British beef is purchased, to an increase

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of unemployment compared with 1929, and also to a change in demand, the public not wanting to eat beef, and perhaps preferring mutton and other forms of meat.
Mr. McKIE: On doctors' recommendation?
Mr. ROBERTS: Possibly some doctors, as the hon. Member suggests, recommend vegetables rather than beef.
Mr. McKIE: Or recommend mutton.
Mr. ROBERTS: There has been a world fall in the prices of all commodities, and that makes it difficult to see how it affects beef directly, but the monetary cause has very definitely had its effect. When you have a more or less stabilised quantity of beef on the market and a serious fall in price and demand, the real central problem is one of marketing. That is the problem which the Minister has frankly said he does not propose to tackle at the present time, but to wait until suggestions have been put before him. Two years have been wasted. Some slight attempts were made to induce farmers to adopt a scheme which was not very successful, and the whole thing has now dropped. As long ago as 1933 the President of the Board of Trade gave this undertaking in connection with the control of imports from Ireland:
"Whereas it appears to the Board of Trade, after such consultation as aforesaid that all such steps as are practicable and necessary for the efficient reorganisation by means of agricultural marketing schemes or schemes under the Act of the cattle industry in the United Kingdom are being taken, and that without this Order the effective organisation and development of the cattle industry in the United Kingdom under such schemes cannot be brought about or maintained?"
It would be interesting to know whether in 1933 all practicable steps were taken, because in 1936 there does not appear to be any vestige of such steps left either in organisation or on the Statute Book. The difference between the wholesale and retail price of beef has, if anything, widened. The retail price has fallen to some extent, but not commensurate with the fall in the wholesale price. I am not alleging that butchers or other middlemen are profiteering, though I believe that theirs is not an altogether depressed industry, but I am suggesting that, in the interests both of producers and consumers, the present system of marketing
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British beef is wholly inefficient and incapable of competing with the highly organised foreign and Dominion methods of supply. I do not believe that any system of protection, quotas or subsidies will be fully effective until a better system of marketing has been introduced and established in this country. The Minister also stated—and I could not follow his argument here—that there was clear evidence that the subsidy was going into the pockets of the farmer. There is a widespread feeling among farmers that that is not the case, that it is going in an increased margin to distributors, and that certainly a large part of it—and I speak with some knowledge being a landowner also—is going into the pockets of the landowners of this country. There is no question about that whatever. In my part of the country rents are returning to the pre-slump scale.
Mr. McKIE: Does the hon. Gentleman seriously suggest that throughout Great Britain there is a tendency for rents to return to the pre-slump scale?
Mr. ROBERTS: I can only speak of the part of Britain which I know, and I speak with definite authority when I say that the value of land has recovered very substantially and that rents are rising again.
Mr. ORR-EWING: I know the division somewhat slightly which the hon. Member has the honour to represent, and if my memory serves me right the production of beef in Cumberland has considerably declined. If there has been any increase in rents, it has certainly not been as a result of subsidising beef, but it may have been as a result of the milk policy.
Mr. ROBERTS: It is much too detailed and complicated a question to go into, but a large part of the agricultural industry maintains the landowner and enables the farmer to pay his rent. I would most certainly point out that, while Cumberland is not a very large beef-producing county, it used to be a very large store-producing county. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is sufficiently concerned with agriculture to know that that is a very important part of the beef industry, and that it is a part of the industry which feels that it has been very much neglected. I very much regret that, neither in the present continuation of the subsidy nor in the long-term policy, no direct assistance is to go

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to that part of the industry. The system of subsidies paid directly in cash to the farmer, there can be no question, enables the farmer—I am glad to find that it is the case—to pay his rent. There is no need to beat about the bush; it allows him to do that. If we had a more reasonable system of land tenure, I believe that assistance of this sort would go more directly to the farmer, and would not be absorbed by either marketing or other interests. It is exceedingly unfair that one part of that industry should be left without protection.
It has always been the belief and the contention of myself and my hon. and right hon. Friends who sit on this bench that protection could not be a scientific or a fair system, and that the weight of protection would depend upon the strength of the representations of any one particular industry. I do not believe that the beef producers of this country have had a fair share of the protection which has been meted out so lavishly by this Government. On those grounds I think that you can make a case that a subsidy is one way of meeting the fair and just demand of the producers of beef, but I am convinced that if that subsidy is handed out without any control as to methods and improvement of marketing, it will not be for the benefit of the producers in the end because some other interests will, as I have suggested, obtain the advantage. The only permanent basis of prosperity for any industry, whether under protection or not, is the efficiency with which it produces and distributes its commodities.
5.28 p.m.
Major DORMAN-SMITH: I am not absolutely certain what line in voting the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) is going to take. I rather gather that he is going to vote against this Motion. I believe that he happens to be a member of a union to which I belong—certainly his father is—and it strikes me that if he votes against the farmers having this very necessary subsidy, some disciplinary action will have to be taken to deal with disaffection in the ranks of the union. He has not really suggested or given us any idea what he would do to save the immediate situation. He talks—and there is a lot of talk—about having a go at the distributor. That seems to be one
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of the main ideas at the present moment, because no one seems to be able to think of anything else. If you go for the distributor and do him in, all will be well. All I would ask is that, before we carry this idea much further, and before we lightly say that that is the solution, once again the Linlithgow Report should be studied, and perhaps a little more carefully. The Committee will see from that that the Linlithgow Report says quite specifically that although that is attractive as an idea it is not likely to solve all the ills of the farmers.
The question of marketing has been raised more than once to-day. From the producers' point of view there is no power for us to take over the distribution. We should be delighted to take over the co-operative societies and deal with the whole of the distribution, but at the present time this House has not granted us the power to do so. That is an enormous problem, but I can assure the Committee that so far as I can speak for my organisation we are fully prepared to play our part in any organisation which may be necessary, provided that we have some security of tenure. When we talk about livestock marketing, the producers of this country cannot but call to mind what has happened in regard to some of the other marketing schemes and the difficulties under which they have been placed under those schemes, and it is feasible to say that before we do put another part of our industry under any more bureaucratic institutions we want to know exactly where we are. Although hon. Members opposite may not think so, the farmers of this country are not very fond of bureaucracy, and we have to go a long way to persuade them that it is a good thing. However, we will play our part in trying to produce an efficient industry, or as efficient as we can make it, provided that we get some security.
As regards this particular Resolution, if it had been produced about a fortnight ago probably our course would have been a little bit different from that of to-day, because we should have still been in ignorance of the Government's long-term policy, but we should have welcomed it as a prelude to the inauguration of that long-term policy which we thought would have put the livestock industry back where it should be. The way we meet the position to-day is a little different because we know some of

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the terms of the Government's future policy, and we have to confess that we have some doubt whether that long-term policy will, in fact, give the new life which is so essential to the livestock industry, which is completely essential to the country as a whole. At the present time the livestock industry is a decaying industry. That sounds a horrible thing to say, but it has begun to decay, and some really new life must be put into it if that decay is to be stopped. I hope that on Friday we shall be able to hear that our fears are groundless, and that the Minister will be able to tell us that in fact his long-term policy will give that new life which is so essential.
To-day we have either to agree with or to reject this particular Motion. I do not think that there is anything else for the House to do but to accept it, although I join with the hon. Gentleman opposite in saying that I do not believe that it is sufficient at the present time. That may seem an ungrateful and ungracious way for me or for any of us on these benches to receive the Resolution. I know that hon. Members in all quarters of the House have come to the conclusion, which has been voiced on many occasions, that farmers as a whole are a truly ungrateful lot. I can well understand their point of view, and for this reason, that so far as most hon. Members are concerned all that they know is that they get some section or other of agriculture to consider and each section is getting some subsidy or some assistance, but the House of Commons never gets an opportunity of seeing agriculture as a whole. That is most unfortunate. If they saw the full picture of agriculture then probably they would have a different idea.
It has often been said to me: "You are getting all this money, £10,000,000, £20,000,000, £30,000,000 or £40,000,000. Is not that enough? Are you never going to be satisfied?" The answer so far as agriculture is concerned is "Not yet," and for the simple reason that the value of subsidies to an industry cannot be taken just on the amounts which are given. The only way you can be sure of the efficacy of subsidies is by answering the question, "Have they achieved all that they set out to do?" I submit that up to the present time they have not, and I do not think it is very difficult to see why. It is because no country can possibly for such a long period of years
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neglect any basic industry as agriculture has been neglected, by all parties in this House for so many years: denuded of capital, denuded of labour, denuded almost of enterprise—
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. and gallant Member is trying to present a picture of agriculture as a whole. This is not the suitable occasion on which to do that.
Major DORMAN-SMITH: I thank you for your Ruling, but I thought the question of subsidies as a whole was rather up for discussion. Certainly, the hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) mentioned most of the subsidies, and I was trying to work out the real case for subsidies as such. Naturally, I bow to your decision. I agree with what has been said in regard to subsidies. The last thing on earth that agriculture wants is subsidies. We hate them. They are anathema to us. What we want is to have the opportunity to sell our goods at an economic price according to the standards of this country. We can compete with our goods if we lower our standards, if we get down to the Argentine standard or even if we adopt the Australian method. I think wages are higher in Australia, but if we were allowed to adopt the Australian method we should be delighted to carry out the Australian idea. They fix a very high internal price and export their goods at a very low price. If the House of Commons will allow farmers, as they do in Australia, to fix their prices to meet their needs, we shall be delighted to do that, and then probably we shall be able to increase our wages, but I do not think hon. Members opposite will give us those overriding powers.
I do not know whether I shall be in order in asking the Committee whether they will consider this subsidy in the light of present conditions. We do not know what is in front of us. It is going to be either peace or war. It is suggested that war may not be far away. If it is peace, then I submit that this subsidy will at least give us some hope of building up the agricultural industry and that that industry will be absolutely essential to the welfare of this country in a very short time. What the Committee thinks is going to happen when the building boom and the armaments boom

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is over, I do not know. Whether it is suggested that international trade will be so good that it can absorb our unemployed, and that economic nationalism will have stopped, I do not know, but I do not think that anybody would be rash enough to suggest that. Therefore, as I see the position we have to build up our agriculture, and we might well take note of what the Prime Minister said not long ago:
"As far as I can see, any idea that we can be the workshop of the world can no longer be held. It is untenable. Therefore, we have to devote our minds to a greater cultivation of the land than we have done for years past."
I believe those words to be true, and it would be a most lamentable thing if at this juncture the Labour party carried their ideas about this subsidy, because it would give a setback to agriculture. I do not think they want to do that, or to see, so far as livestock is concerned, the decrease in our young stock, which is one of the most serious things that is going on. As the Minister said, the amount of our young stock is going down and down, because it does not pay to produce. The hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) has said that some of the breeders there have begun to get a little bit better, but that is purely and simply because of the scarcity which has come along, and they are getting, as it were, famine prices. It is not what is wanted in this country—to solve the problems of the livestock industry by creating a shortage of stock. I have some Irish blood in me, and I believe it was once said of the Irish famine that it was a good thing to have the famine because it would solve the Irish problem by killing off, presumably, all my wretched countrymen. I am sure that that is not the way that this House would like to solve the livestock problem, by seeing the numbers go down to such a degree that the price factor would solve itself.
I believe that this subsidy is essential if we are to be prepared for the future and to provide for the future of those for whom we shall have to find employment in five or six years' time. If it is to be war, then I need not dwell long on that point, because the value of agriculture in such an eventuality is so obvious. It was stated the other day by one who has qualified to speak for the Government that at the present time
1724
agriculture is in a better position for immediate expansion than it was in 1914. That is an entirely wrong statement. It is not one to which any agriculturist would agree. Our ability to increase the supply of foodstuffs in time of war depends not on marketing boards or organisation so much as it does on the fertility of the soil. Any agriculturist will tell us that the fertility now within the soil is nothing like what it was in 1914; it is very much inferior, and there is good reason for that. The low prices agriculturists have received have been such that the consumers have not only been consuming agricultural produce at a cheap price but they have also been consuming the fertility of the soil, and you cannot eat your fertility and still have it. That is what has been happening. Somehow or other we have to get back more money and more profit into this industry.
It may be said that the Government are pouring out these subsidies, but I submit that agriculture can make out an extremely good case, because it has subsidised the consumers for an extremely long period of years by absolute direct subsidies. If the Committee would like to look at what happened in the industry during the years from 1925 to 1931 they would find that there was a complete capital loss of over £255,000,000—
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I must remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman and other hon. Members that we are not in Committee of Supply. We are dealing solely with the cattle industry.
Major DORMAN-SMITH: All that I would ask is that the Committee will pass the Resolution and accept it as it is, in the hope that on Friday we shall have some better news for livestock producers.
5.45 p.m.
Mr. RICHARDS: I have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. and gallant Member for Petersfield (Major Dorman-Smith) when he says that we have not many opportunities for looking at agriculture as a whole. The Minister has a happy way of coming down to the House on successive occasions either with a demand for the extension of a subsidy or for a further subsidy purely for temporary reasons. These subsidies, unfortunately, do tend to become part of a

1725
permanent policy, and it is important that we should have an opportunity of reviewing the position of agriculture as a whole, although I realise that to-night we are dealing with a specific subsidy for a specific problem. I want to call the attention of the Minister to the fact that there are some producers in this country who benefit very little indeed from some subsidies and do not benefit at all from others. It is extraordinarily difficult to work the matter out but I feel that certain sections only of the agricultural community benefit by the subsidy.
Take the part of the country in which I am interested. Nobody can say that that part has benefited at all from the wheat subsidy or from the sugar beet subsidy. It has got something out of milk, but very little. The industry there is entirely a cattle-raising industry. I think the Government ought to consider the situation of the cattle rearer. This policy is conceived entirely in the interests of the big men. The small man who undertakes the difficult task of rearing animals, bringing them up and disposing of them under the worst conditions, in many cases has hardly anything at all done for him.
I suggest that the small Welsh farmers whom I have in mind should be considered. They have suggested to the National Farmers' Union that they would like to get this industry regulated and controlled. They are prepared to undertake a marketing scheme, but the National Farmers' Union have not regarded the proposal with any great sympathy nor, I understand, has the Minister either. I think it is particularly hard. If the Welsh Farmers' Union are agreed amongst themselves upon a scheme that they would like to see introduced I do not see why it should be turned down. I do not want to impute wrong motives to the National Farmers' Union, but the information I have received from my friends is that their proposal has been turned down by the National Farmers' Union, who say that they have a scheme rather like the Welsh scheme but a little better, yet they have never shown it in outline to the Welsh farmers.
Major DORMAN-SMITH: The Welsh farmers have produced a scheme but the National Farmers' Union for England and Wales have to produce a very much wider scheme, and until we have some
1726
indication of the general policy of the Government it is not an easy thing to produce; it is not a simple matter to fit in one bit of a scheme. But the sympathy is there.
Mr. RICHARDS: I admit the difficulty, and I think it is regrettable that something has not been done by the board or the National Farmers' Union to introduce a comprehensive scheme. These successive subsidies cannot continue in a country like Wales. Other industries have their claims. Here is an opportunity for the Minister not merely to have regard to the big rearer, but to the smaller man who finds life very difficult. If the right hon. Gentleman did something in addition to what he has suggested and made some provision for the rearer as well as the feeder, there would be something to justify the subsidy.
5.51 p.m.
Sir MALCOLM BARCLAY-HARVEY: Like the right hon. Member for Southmolton (Mr. Lambert), I shall most certainly support the Motion, but I do so with a considerable amount of hesitation. I agree with him that it really does not go far enough. The subsidy was originally put on in 1934, because it was considered—the Minister said so—that the cattle industry was in such a bad state that it required some assistance. In July, 1934, when the subsidy was put on, the average price of cattle in my part of the world was 45s. 6d. per cwt. The last figure I have obtained is for the end of last week, and it is 41s. 6d. per cwt. During the winter when prices are higher the average price in 1934, before the subsidy, was 42s. 6d., this year it was 39s. 6d. It is fairly obvious that if 5s. is enough when summer prices are 45s. and winter prices 42s. 6d., it is not enough when summer prices are 41s. and winter prices round about 39s. We have had a plea from the hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Richards) for the small man. I sympathise with him. I am very sorry for the small man in my part of the country. He depends not only on producing store cattle but on producing other crops, among them oats, for which he is denied any assistance whatever. That is one reason why we should give better assistance to the cattle industry; in my part of the country we receive nothing else from the Government. Indeed, the representatives of the

1727
North-East of Scotland feel rather bitter about the way the cereal crop has been dealt with by the Government.
If any figures are wanted to prove the inadequacy of the present subsidy, I will give one or two which have been submitted by the North of Scotland College of Agriculture. I have the records of the results of bringing up cattle from the weaning stage to the sale. In the case of 16 home-bread cattle the loss amounted to £8 11s. 6d., that is including the subsidy. In the case of 32 Irish stores the loss, in spite of the subsidy, was £34 5s. 8d. In the case of 10 home-bred cattle the loss was £25 12s., and in the case of eight home-bred cattle the loss was £8. Obviously, the subsidy is not sufficient, because we are showing a loss. That may be of some interest to the hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) who asked the Minister what he thought was a reasonable figure at which he ought to aim. The figure we are getting is not sufficient, and I think we should be given some figure which the right hon. Member thinks is reasonable, at which cattle should be produced. I am afraid that we should not agree when we got it. There has been some mention of the question of agricultural rents. It has been suggested by the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) that agricultural rents have been going up. That is entirely untrue so far as my part of the country is concerned. Rents have been falling, and are continuing to fall.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: We really cannot go into the question of agricultural rents on this Motion. The hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) was entitled to say that part of the subsidy went towards rents, and any hon. Member is entitled to contradict it, but we cannot go into the whole question of agricultural rents.
Sir M. BARCLAY-HARVEY: I hope it will be possible on another occasion to deal with that matter. The question of agricultural wages has also been raised, and it is germane to the present discussion. They depend largely on the prices which farmers can get for their cattle. The Minister in an interesting speech to which I listened referred with some pride to the fact that agricultural wages had been stabilised. There again,
1728
in my part of the country that is not the fact. Looking at the figures for 1932 I find that the average wage in Aberdeenshire for a married cattle-man, including all perquisites, was 34s. 7d., and last year it was 31s. In Kincardineshire it was 36s. 4d. in 1932 and 25s. 9d. in 1935. It is true that this year there has been a slight increase, but it is not due to any improvement in the cattle situation. Cattle prices have been falling, and the truth is that farm servants are not prepared to go on working for the miserable pittance they have had during the last few years. One of the reasons why I am anxious to see better prices provided for cattle producers is to be able to give farm servants a reasonable wage, which they cannot get at the moment. We have nothing else to do it with but the cattle subsidy. We get nothing out of other subsidies, and we look to this cattle subsidy because we have nothing else with which to make up to the farm servants a reasonable standard of living. I submit that the present scheme is not sufficient to achieve that object, which I am certain is the object of hon. Members opposite as well.
Mr. MacLAREN: Is the hon. Member advancing the argument that the Government should give more subsidy in order to pay the wages bill of Scottish farmers?
Sir M. BARCLAY-HARVEY: Unless we can get reasonable prices for cattle direct or through Government assistance we cannot pay a proper wage to Scottish farm servants. That is my point. It may be that I am a little ungracious in criticising a gift, but I should be doing less than my duty to my constituents if I did not do so. This is my last criticism. It is rather disappointing that on this occasion the Government are once again coming forward with a subsidy such as this. The Minister says that the scheme has worked well. No doubt it has, but during the last two years, when all these interim schemes have been produced, some comprehensive scheme might have been devised which would have encouraged the producer of the better quality of cattle. It is a great disappointment, because I think we have missed a great opportunity. We do not know what the Government's long-term policy is going to be. I hope it will do something, but I look upon the scheme with considerable suspicion. I am not at all

1729
satisfied that it will be sufficient for our requirements. If the Minister cannot alter this subsidy I hope that when the long-term policy is brought in it will provide proper remuneration for those people who are producing good class cattle rather than for those who are producing cow beef. One of the reasons why so many farmers have gone into milk, with so much cow beef as a result, is the fact that prices for fat cattle have been so low.
If there is to be a reduction in the production of cow beef in this country, a reasonable price must be given for good beef. Many people who ought never to have gone into the production of milk would then go back to the production of fat cattle. I speak for a district which has been very hard hit during the last few years and which has got very little, apart from the cattle subsidy, out of the things which the Government have done for agriculture. That district has just had the blow of being told that its one and only cereal will receive no assistance from the Government. I hope that when the Minister comes forward with a long-term policy he will do something to revive the agricultural industry as a whole, and particularly the cattle industry in the North East of Scotland. If something is not done to assist it, that fertile and magnificent part of the country will have to give up that industry.
6.1 p.m.
Mr. De CHAIR: I would like to differ to a certain extent from some of the hon. Members who have spoken this evening, and who have criticised the long-term policy as being inadequate. I must confess that on agricultural matters I am usually to be found on the side of the heretics, but this afternoon I suppose I am on the side of the Inquisition. At all events, I certainly welcome the statement made by the Minister on Wednesday last, because I think that it ends a period of great uncertainty in this industry, and brings a promise of some measure of profit to it. I differ from the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) in his reading of the long-term policy. His complaint seemed to be that these periodical subsidies have become a permanent policy. If that were the case, I would vote against such a long-term policy, but as far as I can see
1730
there is a very considerable difference between this temporary emergency subsidy which we are voting to-night and the long-term policy as foreshadowed by the Minister of Agriculture. To begin with, the subsidy is to be 1s. 3d. a live hundredweight higher; and it is to be coupled with a tariff of three farthings a pound on Argentine beef and a standardisation of imports at their present figure. I think that is an enormous improvement on the position as it is at present.
I only hope that the temporary subsidy which we are voting now, theoretically until the end of July of next year, will, in point of fact, be able to cease earlier and that the long-term policy foreshadowed by the Minister will be introduced at an earlier date. I was certainly beginning to wonder, like the hon. Member for Don Valley, whether the periodical repetition of these subsidies meant that the old French proverb that it is only the provisional which endures, was beginning to exercise an undue fascination on the Minister. I am happy to know that he is not going to continue the provisional subsidy which we are voting, but is going to introduce a permanent subsidy. To give a temporary subsidy is like throwing a lifebelt to a drowning man; but that will be inadequate unless the lifeboat of a more permanent policy is sent to him in time to save him from drowning. It is because I believe that the permanent policy foreshadowed by the Minister will prove a lifeboat to save the producer that I give the Minister My support to-day.
I know that as it is at present the subsidy is not enough for the cattle industry. Hon. Members opposite have frequently said that it is sufficient in the sense that it is a great burden on the Treasury. That is one of the greatest objections to it. It has always been a great grievance on the part of the Treasury that they have had to provide this large sum which at the same time was apparently not sufficient to maintain the industry in a profitable state. Every time this temporary subsidy comes up for extension there is another groan from the harassed taxpayer, and the heart of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, like Pharoah's, is hardened, if that be possible. It is to put an end to that state of affairs and to end that prejudice in the public mind

1731
against the industry that we are to see the conclusion of these temporary extensions of the subsidy and the introduction of a permanent policy. I agree that it is better to have a, permanent subsidy on a set scale than to have these small extensions, but I agree with the hon. Member who spoke last, that if it were possible, it would be better for this money to be paid to the industry in a different form. I think it does attach a stigma to an industry, in the public's mind, if it has to be kept alive indefinitely by a subsidy pure and simple, and for that reason I was sorry that the Minister was not able to put forward a scheme of deficiency payments, as he had originally foreshadowed, in making his announcement of the long-term policy. However, one should not look a gift horse in the mouth, and I do not propose to do so.
The main point I wish to make is that at last a tariff on imported beef is promised in this long-term policy, and I believe that tariff is something which the majority of the people in the industry want. Like a rainbow, it has always been receding, with the Board of Trade in between, and we could not understand, as month after month of negotiations with the Argentine passed, why it was not possible to place a tariff on the imported article straight away. We wondered whether or not our market had suddenly ceased to be a vital necessity to the Argentine, and whether or not the Argentine had perhaps found some big new meat-eating population somewhere else in the world. We thought that perhaps the Italians had forsaken macaroni for beef or that Signor Mussolini might have suggested they should change their habits in that respect and had notified the Argentine accordingly. That was not the case, however; the Argentine continued to cram the mouths of Britain on Sundays with the roast beef of old Argentine.
One wondered whether by any chance the difficulty could lie nearer home and whether there might perhaps be some difference of opinion on this matter between the Minister of Agriculture and the President of the Board of Trade. We agricultural Members have always said to our constituents: "Our Minister is all right; his heart is in the right place." "But of what avail is a valiant heart" said my farmers in reply, "if it is always crossed in its advances?" Apparently
1732
it has taken the Minister two years to get agreement on this point and to place a definite tariff on the imported article. There were two points raised by the hon. Member for Don Valley upon which I would like to comment. In the first place, he challenged the Minister's statement that the subsidy that had been paid so far had benefited the consumers. He said that £9,000,000 of subsidy had been paid and that it had been a dead loss to the consumers. I think the Minister pointed out clearly that the fall in prices to the consumers had been £50,000,000, of which £23,000,000 represented the fall in the prices to the consumers of home-produced beef.
Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I think the hon. Member must have misunderstood me. I did not say that the £9,000,000 was a loss to the consumers. My only reference to that sum was that it was given unconditionally. I certainly did not say it was a loss to the consumers.
Mr. De CHAIR: I thank the hon. Member for his explanation, but his remarks did imply that the consumers had not benefited by the payment of the subsidy. In point of fact it is clear that if the Government were paying a subsidy of £9,000,000, and the consumers benefited to the extent of a reduction in prices of £23,000,000, the country as a whole benefited by the balance between £9,000,000 and £23,000,000. The only person who did not benefit was the producer of beef, who was unable to make it pay. It prevented him from being completely ruined, but he was the only person who did not get any profit from the bargain. I was particularly glad to hear the Minister draw attention to the improvement that he hopes to see in the grading of cattle. I agree with him that very painstaking work has been done by the graders up to the present, but it seems to me that grading will be the pivotal point on which will depend the success or failure of the new subsidy. If we want the public to appreciate British beef, we must produce beef of a high standard quality. One of the complaints made against English beef is that it is not of an even standard of quality, whereas the Argentine is able to pump into this country week by week a uniform standard quality of chilled beef. I think that the graders locally have been in great difficulty during a time when the

1733
industry has been very depressed. When cattle are brought to them for grading, they naturally feel it is hard not to grade certain cattle belonging to Jack or John when in point of fact those cattle ought not really to be graded for the subsidy.
It would, I think, greatly strengthen the position of the graders in future if they were to be transferred to different parts of the country, and if, for instance, a grader from the North were sent to grade cattle in Lancashire and a Lancashire grader sent to Somersetshire, and so on. It would then be easier for the graders to reach an impartial decision as to the merits of the cattle coming up for grading. It is important that in grading a real measure of efficiency should be established. We are at present in the great difficulty that an enormous amount of cow beef has been coming on to the market as a result of the low level of prices for fat beef, and this has prejudiced the English consumer against English beef, because the quality of the beef has not been uniformly good. The Argentine only sends us its very best beef. There was a letter in the "Times" this morning in which it was stated that for every one bullock sent to England from the Argentine, five bullocks of an inferior type had to be consumed locally. On that assumption, the writer pointed out that even if English beef production were on the same lines as that of the Argentine, five-sixths of the production would be of second quality. Therefore, we have the very hard task before us of supplying a high class English beef, and I think that grading, if it can be introduced, will do an enormous amount to strengthen our position.
In conclusion, I would like to join with the hon. and gallant Member for Peters-field (Major Dorman-Smith) in saying that at a time such as this, when the threat of war is closing round our shores and menacing us with starvation, as it did once before, the Government are right in placing every inducement they can before the livestock industry to expand. Livestock represents 75 per cent. of the whole of our agricultural output, and until you have dealt with the livestock industry, you have only been nibbling at the fringes of the agricultural depression. I do not say that the long-term policy foreshadowed by the Minister will mean a great expansion in the livestock industry, but it will certainly restore the internal
1734
balance of agriculture. I am happy to say that in this respect the Norfolk Farmers' Union has taken a very favourable view of the long-term policy, and when the Minister gets credit from the Secretary of the Norfolk Farmers' Union, believe me he has earned it; Mr. J. F. Wright said that at long last it looks as though the beef farmers' turn is coming, even if only to a modest extent. For that reason, I welcome the statement of the Minister as sounding the tocsin of an advance in agricultural protection.
6.15 p.m.
Sir R. W. SMITH: I am afraid I have not the same hopeful outlook as the hon. Member who has just spoken with regard to the beef situation. He told us that the permanent policy of the Government promised some measure of profit to the meat producers. It may be that in South-West Norfolk a subsidy of 6s. 3d. per cwt. is going to bring a profit to a large number of meat producers, but, if so, they must be more fortunate in Norfolk than we are in North-East Scotland. This is a matter of vital importance to the part of the country which I have the honour to represent. My hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine (Sir M. Barclay-Harvey) has already raised the case of the Scottish farmers and I do not intend to deal further with the points made by him than to say that I thoroughly agree with him in regard to the operation of the subsidy in the past as affecting Scottish producers. The question of wages was also referred to, and I would like to emphasise the point that the wages of our farm workers have not gone up to anything like the same extent that wages in England have increased. I would also like to press the question which was put by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) as to what the Minister would regard as a reasonable or a remunerative price for the producer of fat stock. Until we have that figure we cannot view this question in the proper manner.
Several speakers have said that they intend to vote for this proposal because it is a case either of voting for the Resolution or against it. I suggest that there is a third alternative and that is for the Government to withdraw the Resolution and introduce another Resolution under which the emergency assistance to the industry would be increased. I think we are justified in making that claim. The Government, by their own long-term

1735
policy, as outlined by the Minister, admit that if adequate provision is to be made for the United Kingdom cattle industry the aggregate financial assistance now given to it must be increased. The Government have stated their desire to make adequate provision to the industry. They admit that the present 5s. subsidy is inadequate because they propose to raise it to 6s. 3d. My argument is that, on the Government's own showing, this inadequacy of assistance has gone on for some years now, certainly since 1934 and during all that time the livestock producers have been losing money. Yet here we have the Government proposing to extend that system for another nine months. Why for another nine months? Why should not the long-term policy be brought in immediately, when the present Argentine agreement comes to an end?
We are told that a new agreement is being made with the Argentine and that the present agreement will end on 7th November. The natural supposition is that the new agreement will begin as from 7th November and we understand that there is to be a levy on Argentine meat coming into this country. The Exchequer is to receive that amount. The Exchequer is at present giving 5s. per cwt., up to some £3,000,000 or £4,000,000, and they propose to give in the future £5,000,000. I submit that as from the ending of the present Argentine agreement, instead of a temporary emergency measure continuing the 5s. per cwt., we should get the 6s. 3d. per cwt. I appeal to the Minister to consider that very reasonable request. We have been put off with these emergency measures time after time. I am not raising this point suddenly or taking the Minister unaware, because I raised it on the last occasion when the emergency regulations were extended and I would now press it very strongly and ask other hon. Members of the Committee to join me in pressing it very strongly on the Government.
As I say, the Government themselves admit the inadequacy of the present subsidy to meet the loss suffered by the farmers, and the farmers are entitled to get this relief at once. They have waited for it long enough, and if they are impatient they are not to be blamed, because to them it is a matter of life and death. The farmers in my part of the country have already been turned
1736
down on the question of assistance for oats. In a reply given by the Secretary of State for Scotland we were told that the farmers in the North-East of Scotland, who do not receive any advantage from the wheat or sugar beet subsidies, and who have not a single commodity which is receiving a direct subsidy at the present time, except meat, are expected to make up their losses on oats out of what they are to get in respect of meat. The Government at the present time are giving them a meat subsidy which is admitted to be inadequate, but they are asked to carry on for another nine months with an inadequate subsidy on meat, losing all the time on their oats, but unable to make up that loss on their meat.
It is hard for people like them who produce a very high quality of meat to make anything out of it even with assistance and under the Government's full scheme it will still be a very serious matter for them. They will have to charge a larger amount for their meat in order to make up for the loss on their oats and naturally when they come to compete in the market, that fact must tell against them and the cheaper Argentine meat will probably be bought in preference to their superior product. In asking the Government to bring in this assistance of £5,000,000 or its equivalent at once or at the end of November, we are not asking for anything unreasonable. We are asking for something which, on the Government's own showing, is requisite for the industry.
6.23 p.m.
Mr. BOOTHBY: I do not take the desperate view of the Government's proposal which was taken by my colleagues in the representation of Aberdeenshire, but I also wish to emphasise the serious position of agriculture in the north-east of Scotland. I was amused and interested by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert). I fully approve of his appeal for a great food production drive in this country. He said that it would be impossible for the agricultural industry to get any method into its system of marketing or indeed any long-term policy at all, without adequate protection, but a few minutes later he said that he was strongly opposed to Government interference of any kind and particularly to protection. I do not know, therefore, how

1737
he expects his own particular agricultural policy to be made effective.
If I do not understand the right hon. Gentleman's policy, I am bound to say that I should feel a little happier about this subsidy if I could see any sort of general governing principle, or method, or indeed sanity, underlying the present agricultural policy of the Government. If we take the general position of subsidies at the present time—and this is the latest instalment of the policy of subsidies—we find we are reaching a state of things which does not bear inspection. There is, to my mind, no clear principle underlying the granting of subsidies to agriculture at the present time. Why do the Government take a particular product at a particular moment and subsidise it up to a particular amount? We have had first the beet sugar subsidy. I am not going into that question now because it would be out of order to do so. Then we had the wheat subsidy. I mention these two commodities in passing. They are commodities in which there has been a world glut for several years past and we subsidised them. Then somewhat late in the day we turn to the commodity upon which agriculture primarily depends and we subsidise it as the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) said, in a completely haphazard and unthought-out fashion. About every nine months or so the Government throw a Bill at the House of Commons and issue a sort of S.O.S., asking us to put out a life-line to the beef-producing industry of this country. They tell us, "The position is desperate and we must help these chaps over their difficulty at once, but we intend to produce a long-term policy in due course." Now the long-term policy has been produced, and while I do not regard the amount involved as being so small, it seems to me that the method proposed leaves a good deal to be desired.
Hon. Members have spoken about the cost of production of livestock, and that is a vital factor in the granting of a subsidy; but surely they see that the cost of production of beef in existing conditions must vary in different parts of the country. I think it will be admitted that in our part of the country we produce probably the best class of beef in this country. It is the centre of the breeding of Aberdeen Angus cattle and it produces nothing or should pro-1738
duce nothing but prime fat cattle. It is not a country made for cow production or dairy farming. Compare the position of the farmer in North-East Scotland who ought to be producing the best beef and only the best beef, with the position of a farmer in the East or Midlands of England who is already getting the advantages of the wheat subsidy, the sugar beet subsidy and the milk subsidy. The farmers in North-East Scotland cannot produce any one of those three commodities. The Government last week turned down the suggestion that there should be some kind of deficiency payment on the only cereal crop which they can grow, namely, oats. Therefore, our farmers in future, as far as cereals are concerned, will be confined to a crop for which they cannot hope to get anything like the cost of production. In other words, they must incur severe losses on the only white crop they can grow year after year. Is that not bound to make a tremendous difference to the cost of production of the best beef?
I appeal to the Minister once more to get this subsidy on to a sane basis instead of allowing it to continue on the present completely haphazard basis. There is only one way of dealing with the cereals problem. If you are to subsidise cereals, then you should treat the whole lot together. Thus you would put all your beef producers in the same position and you would be able to estimate, far more accurately, the approximate cost of production of beef all over the country and produce a beef subsidy which will apply fairly to all producers. As things are, I agree with my colleagues who have spoken that the system is unfair to the farmers in Aberdeen and that those farmers ought to be given an extra subsidy for producing the best beef instead of the same subsidy as that given to farmers—who are already getting all the other subsidies I have mentioned—for producing cow beef which nobody wants us to produce.
Mr. ELLIOT: But the farmer in North-East Scotland can also get the subsidy for cow beef.
Mr. BOOTHBY: My answer is that the farmer who produces cow beef in the Midlands and the East of England in such quantities is able to do so because of the subsidies which he is getting upon

1739
wheat, and milk and sugar beet. That enables them to put the cow beef on the market at almost any price because he is already making a profit upon all these other products.
Mr. ELLIOT: But is not the subsidy for milk available to the North-Eastern farmer?
Mr. BOOTHBY: My right hon. Friend knows that milk is not produced in any large quantity in the North-East of Scotland. It is not a country suited to the product of liquid milk or the maintenance of dairy herds. It is primarily suited to, and should, in my judgment, be confined to the production of the best fat cattle. Why should it be turned over to the production of dairy herds for which it is unfitted? Why should not the Minister concentrate on getting from a particular part of the country the agricultural product which that part of the country is best fitted to produce, instead of subsidising farmers to produce what they ought not to produce in order to try to get a subsidy, and thereby creating a glut? It is part of the same fundamental problem, and my right hon. Friend cannot stand up in this House and justify the method by which the Government give subsidies to agriculture at the present time. I am not blaming my right hon. Friend for the whole thing. He was not responsible for the beet subsidy, and he was not entirely responsible for the wheat subsidy, but these subsidies have grown up in the last 10 years in an entirely haphazard way, and it is time the Government reviewed the position as a whole and brought before this House a long-time agricultural policy, not only to cover beef, but to cover the whole field of agriculture and of agricultural produce in this country.
There is one specific question which I would like to put to the Parliamentary Secretary and that is with regard to this international conference. In announcing the policy, the Minister said it was the Government's desire at the earliest possible date that the responsibility for securing stable market conditions should be assumed by producers in the various countries concerned and exercised in the light of joint discussion of the problems involved, and with this object in view an international meat conference would be set up, composed of representatives of
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this country and also of those countries supplying substantial quantities of meat to this market. Could he tell us something about the powers of this international conference? Will they control the exports of meat to this country, and to what extent will they be able to control the prices of meat sold in this country? I think this House will be reluctant to see any large measure of control, over prices at any rate, handed over to an international conference of this kind.
In conclusion, I come to one last point, which was raised by the hon. Member for Don Valley, and I am bound to say that with most of what he said I am in entire agreement. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture has tackled production very well in the last two or three years and has established some sort of control over production, but he has not yet touched even the fringe of what many of us at any rate believe to be a far more vital, though much more difficult, problem, the problem of distribution. One of the great criticisms of this scheme—and it is a criticism which is voiced on the Labour side and accounts to some extent for the hostility which exists between the urban masses and agriculture, and which, in my opinion, should not exist—is that they have the feeling that the policy of the Minister of Agriculture is to restrict production and raise prices in the midst of poverty. I believe that is the root of the problem, and it is not a side of the question which has been resolutely tackled by my right hon. Friend. I quite agree that it cannot be solved all in a moment, but I want to know from my right hon. Friend why it is that he should treat references in this House to the organisation of marketing almost as a personal affront. Why is it that when an hon. Member asks him to take steps to see that the beef industry is properly organised on the marketing side, he rises at that Box, bangs it, and says, "Certainly not"?
Mr. ELLIOT: My hon. Friend will remember the question he asked me, whether I would impose a scheme under the Act of 1933. I have repeatedly said to my hon. Friend that it is not within my power, nor is it desirable that it should be within my power, to impose a scheme under the Act of 1933. Nobody would come down more quickly and bang, not on the Box, but on his notes, with

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greater indignation than would my hon. Friend, if I attempted to do any such thing.
Mr. BOOTHBY: I have never suggested that my right hon. Friend should impose a scheme under the Act of 1933. Leave that out of it altogether. The right hon. Gentleman is coming down and asking for a subsidy of £5,000,000 a year for the livestock industry of this country, and I think hon. Members will not suspect me of being purely selfish if I say, as representing one of the leading meat-producing constituencies in this country, and taking all responsibility for what I say, when I say that unless the right hon. Gentleman is much more satisfied than he has reason to be to-day with the marketing of beef and the organisation of the marketing of beef in this country, he ought not to come down here and ask for so large a sum of money; and many of the cattle and beef producers, or the best of them, in our part of the world fully agree with that point of view. They know the control that Smithfield exercises over prices, they know exactly the inefficiency of agricultural marketing at the present time, they know the innumerable number of butchers and slaughter-houses that exist in this country, they know that the gap between the prices paid to them and the prices charged over the counter could be closed if agricultural reorganisation was taken in hand, and some of these innumerable middlemen—not the small butchers; we are not out against them, but some of the unnecessary middlemen—were swept out of the way.
I do not believe you can do it except by means of that recommendation which has been before my right hon. Friend for two or three years, namely, some sort of central slaughter-house system in this country, some sort of processing centre where the Government would be able to keep a watch upon the prices paid to the farmer for beef sent into the centre and the prices charged to the retailer who gets his beef from that centre. I am quite certain that this question of the reorganisation of the marketing of beef, this question which I claim to have studied for the past 12 years fairly closely, is one to which the right hon. Gentleman might direct his attention. He cannot claim that the marketing of beef in this country is efficient, and if he cannot claim that, I question very
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much whether he has a right to come down to this House and demand a large subsidy for producers; and I say that, bearing full responsibility as a Member representing a beef-producing constituency. Why do I say that? I say that because I want to see the consumption increased, and I want to see my own farmers getting the full benefit of the subsidy and that part of that should not go into the pockets of people who have little or nothing to do with agriculture.
6.37 p.m.
Mr. HENDERSON STEWART: My hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) has been, as he has said, for a long time closely interested in the better marketing of beef and has a better right, perhaps, than most of us to speak on that subject, because the constituency which he represents is in fact the leading producer of cattle in any part of the country. We all listened to the hon. Member with very great respect in that regard, but I also have studied the marketing of livestock, and indeed 10 years ago—the hon. Member said he had been studying this matter for 12 years—I was responsible, with some of my hon. Friends opposite, for producing recommendations very close to those which the hon. Member has mentioned here to-day. I cannot remember whether my hon. Friend at that time supported them or not, but I am glad he does to-day. I believe profoundly in the necessity for the better marketing of livestock, but I am very sceptical—the longer I examine it, the more sceptical I become—as to the effect of that better marketing in any measurable way upon prices. I do not really believe that if you had the best marketing system started now, it would have a very marked effect on prices for a good many years. I do not think so. Even though you had your central slaughter-houses and the other things which I regard as essential, it would take perhaps five years to get out of that system as much actual cash as this subsidy method is able to produce for farmers now.
Mr. BOOTHBY: I do not want to give the impression that I am not advocating a subsidy on beef as well as better marketing. I want both.
Mr. STEWART: It is admitted in all parts of the Committee to-day, as it has been all the time, that the position of the livestock industry is bad and needs very close attention, and it is further admitted that the difficulty is the question of prices. Prices have fallen, and therefore prices must be restored. The whole problem is, how can we improve prices? There are two ways. One is by the imposition of a drastic tariff at the ports. That would raise prices considerably, of all kinds of meat, for the poor people as well as for the rich, and the farmers of this country would benefit accordingly. That is one way, and that way has not been accepted, for the reason, which I can very well appreciate, that the Government do not want to raise the price of Argentine and other meat to a great extent, because that is meat which is used mainly by poor people. So the Government have adopted the other method, of a subsidy. I agree with everyone who has condemned subsidies. No subsidy can possibly be made to work fairly. It is not within the range of subsidies to work other than unfairly, but the Government and Parliament have accepted that method.
This is the problem: If subsidy is your method, it is the responsibility of the Minister to see, first of all, that the subsidy works properly, and, secondly, that it works in the right places. Take the first point. Is this subsidy working properly? There have been complaints today, and very sound complaints, that the method of grading is unsatisfactory and that under the present system the producers of first-class quality beef are not being encouraged as they should be or recompensed as they are entitled to be. There is room there, I suggest, for the Minister to examine the matter afresh. But it is upon the second point that those of us who represent Scottish agricultural divisions feel most anxious. As well as ensuring that the subsidy machine works fairly, it is necessary for the Minister to see that its effects are spread as evenly as possible over the country. When I speak of subsidies, I am speaking of subsidies for all manner of agricultural products.
The Minister has applied a fairly even distribution in England. He recognised that there was a necessity for controlling the wheat industry—my hon.
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Friend here drew attention to the advisability of encouraging in any one district that which the district best produces, and that is quite right: the Minister has adopted that principle in England—he has encouraged wheat in England, he has encouraged sugar beet in England, he has encouraged milk in England. We ask him, as Scottish Members, to apply the same principle to Scotland. Our chief industry there is neither wheat, nor sugar beet, nor milk. It is beef. In England livestock represents 36 per cent. of the total agricultural produce. In Scotland the corresponding figure is 54 per cent. In Scotland beef alone represents 32 per cent. of our total production—nearly the same figure as the total livestock for England. That is what makes the difference in our country, and I am here to appeal to the Minister to apply to Scotland the principle of even distribution that he has applied to England and to take, as my hon. Friend has properly asked, not a narrow, one-product or one-district view, but the wide view. It is all wrong to produce one subsidy now and another subsidy to-morrow. It is time that we took into our sweep all the subsidies that we are giving to agriculture and produced, in fact, a balanced system of Government assistance.
As the Committee knows, some time ago I did my best to preserve for Scotland such small part as she had of the sugar-beet industry. It was not because Scotland was perfectly suited to the growing of sugar beet. My only desire was to secure for our poor country as much of this Government assistance as was going. I do not think that there was anything unreasonable or unnational about that, but I agree that sugar beet is not our product at all. If the Minister would regard Scotland, as it is, as the prime beef-producing part of these islands, taking the broad view of the benefit received by consumers of all parts of these islands, and would apply to Scotland such assistance as is necessary to preserve our special form of production, then, indeed, he would he doing something worth while that all of us could support.
Many hon. Members to-day have shown a certain amount of what I can only describe as ingratitude. The hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mr. De Chair) rather chided the Minister for the delay in coming to an arrangement

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with the Argentine. If the hon. Gentleman will reflect a little, I think that he will be able to imagine some of the difficulties with which the Minister is faced. It is not only a matter of the Argentine selling its meat here. That country is a valuable market for our exports. From my own division we are sending goods to the Argentine and the Minister is bound in his negotiations to think of British exports. How many thousands of tons of coal and of steel do we export to the Argentine? It is not as easy as my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Norfolk thinks to come to an arrangement that will secure a balanced return for producers of goods in this country. Therefore, I do not complain that the Minister has taken an inordinate time in coming to agreement with the Argentine. But having come to that agreement, and having got the Argentine to promise that they will pay what will be a considerable sum to assist our Exchequer, and thereby to assist our cattle industry, I beg the Minister to review his whole method of applying assistance to agriculture and, even at the cost of some delay, to come to the House with such a new plan as shall satisfy us that all parts of the country are being treated fairly, and that, indeed, the support, the assistance and the encouragement of this House shall be on a planned and balanced basis.
6.49 p.m.
Mr. ACLAND: I am glad that the question of marketing, in which I am interested, has taken a prominent part in this discussion, and I want the Committee and the Minister to realise what is the position in which we find ourselves to-day. We find ourselves, I think, in the absolute certainty that nothing whatever on the lines of improving marketing will be done at any time within, say, the next 12 months. I would ask the Minister to consider the statements which he has made and the statements which have been made by the hon. and gallant Member for Petersfield (Major Dorman-Smith). The Minister says, as far as I understand him, that he is not prepared to impose a marketing scheme, but that he will be willing to play his part in putting into operation any scheme which the industry may be prepared to bring forward. The hon. and gallant Member for Petersfield, however—I wish he were in
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the Committee now so that he could confirm the impression that I gathered from his speech—as representing the industry in a more special way than any Member of the Committee, tells us that the industry is prepared to play its part, but cannot be expected to bring forward a scheme. Are we not, then, left in the position that the Minister is waiting to back up the industry, and the industry is waiting to back up the Minister?
Mr. ELLIOT: I understood the hon. and gallant Member to say that he was prepared to play his part as soon as he knew what the proposals were.
Mr. ACLAND: Are we to take it that the industry is proposing to introduce any scheme of its own? Looking through a publication of the National Farmers' Union recently, I found that they stressed the need for further subsidies and further production, but from start to finish I did not detect that, from the National Farmers' Union point of view, any reorganisation was necessary. It is all very well for the Minister, or the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), or others to say that nothing can be done along the lines of reorganisation until a subsidy becomes permanent, but is it not more certain that nothing will be done by the industry along the lines of reorganisation when the subsidy has become permanent? We are told that marketing alone cannot solve the problem, and that even if we had the best breeds of cattle and the most efficient marketing scheme that could be devised, a small subsidy might still have to be given. There was a time when we heard the cry, "No taxation without representation," and I feel that we are entitled, on behalf of consumers and taxpayers, to raise the somewhat similar cry, "No subsidy without efficiency."
I am not going to accuse the whole of the distributing trade with being profiteers and extortioners, but it is a fact that the producers are in the hands of the distributors. They are held, in both small and big markets, in a grip of iron. It is a fact that foreign meat is manufactured in factories which take advantage of every possible by-product which can be derived from the carcases of cattle. Our beef is produced in conditions which are very slightly different from those which would have been found at the time of William the Conqueror.

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We have, it is true, slaughter houses. At Islington there is a large slaughter house, and a big percentage of our beef is slaughtered in what we choose to call large slaughter houses. These large slaughter houses, however, are very little better than a conglomeration of minute butchers' slaughter houses such as might be found in any country town. One really might just as well get a collection of hand-loom weavers and put them to work in the same building and call it a cotton factory. Conditions are entirely other than those obtaining in foreign countries. Foreign countries have improved and are improving their breeds. Are we doing all that we could do on those lines? It has been held in many parts of the Committee to be an almost intolerable idea that a farmer should ever go out of production. Of course, it is an intolerable idea that the whole industry should go out of production, but the industry which we want to preserve is an industry which is producing the best, and our industry, with few exceptions in certain areas, such as that represented by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby), is not producing the best to-day.
We must face that fact. Our breed of cattle, on the whole, is not the breed which the consumers require. Is nothing to be done to face that fact, and will the Minister tell us whether anything is to be done to make sure that it shall be really profitable to produce the best breeds and to produce them to the best state of development, and that it shall be unprofitable to produce the worst breeds and the breeds which the public require less? Why should public money be spent in order to make it possible to carry on production without improving the breeds? I hope that the subsidy will be given in a form which positively encourages the improvement of the breeds and which actively discourages the production of breeds which are not required. I hope the Minister will realise that the improvement of breeds, the factory production of meat, the real control of the distributive side of the industry by the producers, and the freeing of the producers from the grip of the distributors, are things which will not be tackled by the industry itself in its present temper. I may be wrong about that, but I hope the Minister will at least assure us that if these things are not tackled, or if the
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business of tackling them has not been begun, say, within six months by the industry itself, he will change his ground upon the question of imposing a scheme. If he finds that no scheme is forthcoming from the industry, will he do what is necessary to begin to remedy the difficulties from which the industry is suffering?
6.57 p.m.
Mr. LEWIS: We are asked this afternoon to agree to the extension for a further short period of the subsidy for beef production. Before we come to a decision whether that is a reasonable request or not, we have to consider the difficulties with which the Minister of Agriculture is faced. It is well known that for a long time he has been endeavouring to hammer into shape a more permanent policy for dealing with beef production. He is faced with four different interests. He has to consider the interests of the consumer, the home producer, the Dominions producers and certain foreign producers. These interests are largely conflicting. They are, moreover, each in its own way of great importance.
The consumers' interest is of first-class importance, and we have to consider in what we are doing and in the further proposals which the Government have in mind how they may affect the price of one of the principal articles of food. The home producers' interest, too, is clearly of first-class importance. Livestock production must always form the principal part of our agricultural economy, regardless of what the Government may do, because it is independent of climatic conditions. It also tends on the whole to pay the best wages in agriculture, and, on the whole, it affords the best opportunities for the small farmer. Then the Dominions' interest and certain foreign interests are, in their way, of great importance to us, the Dominions' interest because of the development of the Empire and of Imperial trade, and foreign interests because of markets that are open to us in such countries as Argentine where there are considerable investments When we consider the importance and complexity of these various interests we cannot reasonably grudge the Minister this further short period for which he asks. But I am becoming apprehensive whether this further period is to be put to the best possible use. It is little more than a year since the Government issued a White Paper (Command No. 4828)

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described as "Imports of Meat into the United Kingdom. Statement of the views of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom." Towards the close of that White Paper the intentions of the Government were clearly set out in the following paragraph:
"The policy which His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom desire to bring into operation as soon as they are in a position to do so is to assist the United Kingdom livestock industry, according to the needs of the market, from the proceeds of a levy on imports (with a preference to the Dominions), overseas producers being left free to regulate their exports to this market themselves."
That was in March, 1935. Until the Minister made his statement on 6th July I had thought that still held the field. Apparently there has been a considerable weakening in regard to that policy. The Minister to-day was most careful to emphasise that the date to which we are asked to extend the subsidy has no special significance. Hon. Members know that that is the last day on which we are prevented by the Ottawa Agreements from putting a duty on meat imported from the Dominions. What the Minister meant by that was a further indication that he has no intention in his more permanent policy of putting an import duty on meat coming from the Dominions. I would urge the Minister to reconsider that in this further period for which he is asking. I can see no reason why the original proposal of a levy on all imports with a preference for Dominion producers should not be adhered to.
There is a further important side to that, and it is the question of cost. I understood from the proposals as outlined a year ago that the scheme was to be self-balancing; that we were to endeavour to get the best of both worlds to this extent, that we were to have the advantage of these great supplies of cheap meat from oversea and yet we were to protect our home producers; and that we were to accomplish these two things by a small levy on the great amount of imported meat, which was to be used to guarantee the price or in some other way to assist the home producer. Apparently, in the Government scheme as now outlined, that is not to be the case. There is to be a gap which the taxpayer is to be asked to fill. When the Measure is laid before this House there will be a
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good many hon. Members who will see reason to object to it. It will be a fatal flaw in the more permanent policy which the Minister is shortly to introduce if it is not to be a self-balancing policy. I hope the Minister will go back to his earlier proposal, that the levy will be widespread, and the proceeds used for the home producer—not, as is now proposed, to make some arbitrary payment out of the Exchequer and only partly to recoup that from our imports.
In agreeing to this Financial Resolution to-night, I hope we shall not be thought necessarily to agree with the proposals for the more permanent policy outlined by the Minister on 6th July. There are many of us who feel that these proposals are not as good as the proposals made in March, 1935, and which until recently we thought would form the permanent policy of the Government. I ask the Minister to keep his mind open to the idea that this question of the maintaining of beef production in this country, and at the same time of securing the advantage of cheap imports of beef from abroad, should be attained by the self-balancing method of a levy on the imported article providing the funds for the protection of the home article. We should secure the advantage of a healthy industry of beef production in time of peace, with the benefits in employment and so forth that would follow, and also the immense advantage of the existence of that industry in time of war.
7.7 p.m.
Mr. CLEMENT DAVIES: I am glad we have reached the last of the temporary requests of the Minister before we come to his permanent policy. I was surprised at the suggestion of the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. R. Acland) that the farmer could not produce the best type of animal. I can assure him that the farmer in this country does produce the best type of animal, and that is why it is in such great demand all over the world. I suggest that he should look at his own division. He will probably find that they are producing there the best type that can be produced. As stock breeders we stand alone in the world.
Mr. ACLAND: That is the best, not the average.
Mr. DAVIES: And the average as well, because the average is all the time improving. The average to-day cannot be compared with the average of 30 or 40 years ago. The real trouble is, how can we stabilise and standardise prices? We shall be able to standardise quality very quickly afterwards. I want to approach this question from an angle rather different from that of many hon. Members. Hon. Members from Scotland were all the time emphasising the beef side, but we are general farmers, and I was glad to hear so many say that they would like to see a scheme of balanced farming, so that the farmer would not rush into sugar-beet because there was a subsidy, or into the production of milch cows because there was a scheme for milk.
The emphasis in dealing with beef should not be laid so much on beef production, as on cattle rearing. Undoubtedly, since the milk scheme was introduced and since this beef scheme has been brought in, cattle rearing has gone out of balance. At present most of the farmers are keeping their heifer calves but are slaughtering the bull calves as veal. The Minister will find that the number of young cattle two years old and under, and especially one year old and under, has gone down during the last two years. That is a serious matter. It means that the farmer is not rearing cattle, and that you will get a shortage of stores. We have brought this matter to the Minister's attention on several occasions, and his answer has been: "You cannot settle your differences among yourselves; the National Farmers' Union cannot make up its mind which is the better policy."
The suggestion made by those of us who are not beef producers but are cattle producers, was that the subsidy should be confined to cattle raised in this country; or, if that was not possible, that cattle imported from abroad should not get the benefit until they had been here at least six months. We suggested another alternative, that the cattle produced in this country should get the 5s. per cwt. but cattle from abroad should get only half. None of these suggestions has been accepted. The result is that so many farmers have gone into the milk market that a tremendous quantity of milk is being produced. Everyone now is making a fuss of his heifer calf, but is selling the
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bull calf as beef. The scheme will kill itself if it is pursued in this way. It does not matter how much subsidy you give to beef if the store cattle are so short or so dear that it will not pay the farmer to finish them off. I hope that when the long-term Measure comes it will be a balanced Measure dealing with agriculture in general.
7.13 p.m.
Mr. HARDIE: The Government have not learned their lesson from what happened in regard to the Tithe Bill. This Resolution is being rushed through for the same reason as the Financial Resolution in connection with the Tithe Bill. The Government are adopting methods by which they will in every way cripple not only the rights of every Member of the House but the rights of the House as a whole. That is serious. This is a specialised subject, but in addition to all the special interests which have been expressed to-night there is another and a greater one, and that is the interest of the consumer, which seems to be something that may come in by accident somewhere, but in no other way. We know as consumers that when a subsidy is put on anything it increases the price of it. You are by this subsidy making poor people, who themselves cannot afford to buy home-grown stuff, but have to be content with chilled beef, contribute towards giving rich people cheap home-fed beef.
The CHAIRMAN (Sir Dennis Herbert): I think the hon. Member is getting beyond the scope of this Debate. We are not here creating a new subsidy. It is clearly a case of renewing an existing subsidy.
Mr. ALEXANDER: This point was raised with the Chair at the outset of the Debate, and what the occupant of the Chair then said was that the purpose of this Money Resolution is to continue the present subsidy arrangement for a definite period in order that the Government may then introduce a long-term scheme. He thought, in the light of that position, it would be difficult to rule out of order any reference to the new scheme. I do not want to be in any way in conflict with the Chair, but I do not want my hon. Friend to be put in a different position from the rest of those who have spoken.
The CHAIRMAN: There is no conflict between the right hon. Gentleman and myself. If the hon. Member had been discussing the new scheme I should not have intervened, but instead of going forward he is going too far back.
Mr. HARDIE: The way to get at the basis of anything is to go back, and I thought I was in order in going back. I have never been outside the fact that we are dealing with a subsidy. We have seen this afternoon what occurs under this system of subsidies. It is a race between two subsidies, the milk and the wheat subsidies. When we give a subsidy to milk, beef producers say, "I am going to raise milk," and when we give it to beef then milk producers say, "I shall stop raising milk, because I can get more from beef." The evil of crushing this Resolution through in the way we are doing is that it makes it difficult to get the Debate on what I may call sequence lines, because everything that relates to the subsidy on beef has a direct bearing on the subsidy given to milk. We have had the recipients of these subsidies fighting each other for a while, but now they are asking to come together in order that they may assist each other to get a little more. The whole basis of subsidies rests upon an evil, and that evil always comes out when we find the recipients of the subsidies asking for a little more.
Do the Government really think they will help the beef-producing industry in Scotland by giving this subsidy? They are begining at the wrong end. If they wish that Scottish beef should be brought in Scotland they should see that the people get wages which will allow them to buy it. Why is it that in towns like Glasgow and Edinburgh we see the meat with the thistle stamp on it left hanging in the shops. Because none of the wage-earners can buy that meat. If the poor people want meat all they can purchase is chilled meat, and one reason for that is that more money is being taken from them by indirect, if not by direct, taxation, in order to subsidise home-produced beef for the rich. The whole position from the Scottish point of view is most distressful, especially when we remember the numbers of people who, through the stress of times, have been forced to resort to vegetarianism. Every time the attempt is made to effect a certain purpose by levying taxation on particular
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foodstuffs it is followed by a diversion of public consumption to some other article. When the price of tinned peas was rising the public stopped buying them and bought something else. If the Minister had logic running through his head would he really think it necessary to give the famous Aberdeen beef a subsidy in order to help farmers? All he need do is to see that the working classes get better wages, and then they will buy the beef at a price which will give the farmer a sufficient return to enable him to carry on.
We have already seen the swindle of subsidies in the case of sugar beet. We have seen the same thing in the case of bacon, when we handed over £7,500,000 a year to the Danes for nothing. The Minister of Agriculture thought he was doing a good thing for the country, thought he was increasing trade. He was decreasing trade in the grocers' shops and decreasing it in the pig-rearing business. Now he thinks he is going to do something for meat. All he will do is to reduce the consumption of home-produced beef, because the subsidy will make it all the more impossible for the mass of the people to buy that beef. I hope that the Government, instead of going on with this subsidy policy, this policy of "You scratch my back and I will scratch yours," as between one trade and another, will take a common-sense view, and that all this swindling and other methods of robbing will be left to the robbers, and when they come to the country as robbers we shall know what to do with them.
7.23 p.m.
Mr. TURTON: The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) says that by giving these subsidies we are making it harder for consumers to buy beef. The bald fact, as explained to us by the Minister—I expect the hon. Member was not present when the Minister spoke—
Mr. HARDIE: Yes. He said he was making it cheap.
Mr. TURTON: Since 1929, when the hon. Member had some share in the membership of the Government, prices of beef have fallen by £50,000,000. That means that the consumer has been getting his beef cheaper and that the farmer has year by year been producing it at a greater loss.
Mr. HARDIE: The hon. Member is forgetting about wages. If he is going to discuss economics he must take the purchasing power in relation to markets.
Mr. TURTON: Wages in agriculture have risen, as the hon. Member knows. At the end of the Labour Government's term of office in 1931—fortunately for agriculture the end came then—wages had dropped and were to drop for the next year. Under the policy of the present Government wages have risen and continue to rise. Unfortunately there have been lower prices for beef, and to bolster up those lower prices we have this temporary subsidy. It is no good the hon. Member talking about a race in subsidies. The farmer cannot produce beef profitably to sell at 35s. or 38s. per live cwt., and, equally, he cannot make large profits out of milk at 1s. a gallon for liquid milk or, if it gets down to the pool price, 8¾d. per gallon. If you are being beggared you try to see where you will be least beggared. As to the position of consumers under this temporary subsidy there is nothing to be said, but as regards producers the subsidy has some drawbacks. The hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) made the most amazing speech I have ever heard in this House, a speech which was most unfair to producers and butchers and a gross injustice to the actual breeders of this country. That speech requires an answer. He first said there ought to be no subsidy without efficiency, but if you are producing at a loss how can you keep efficient? When you are losing £1 or £2 per head on your beasts how can you continue to produce the beef?
Mr. MacLAREN: Who is causing the loss?
Mr. TURTON: The loss is caused because we do not get high enough prices for our beef.
Mr. MacLAREN: The hon. Member is saying that producers are not realising prices which cover the cost of production, and if that is so does he not see how essential it is to advance arguments to show that they are producing the beef at an economic price?
Mr. TURT0N: I think I understand the point put by the hon. Member. One of his arguments would be that if a man
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is not producing at an economic level he should stop producing.
Mr. MacLAREN: Yes.
Mr. TURTON: Knowing the hon. Member I should expect that argument from him. The argument would be that we should turn men out of employment up and down the countryside in order to take chilled and frozen beef from the Argentine, and from every other conceivable country, so that consumers might get cheap beef, though the labourers in the countryside would starve. Knowing the hon. Member's land policy I quite understand that that would be a natural argument from him, but I want to get away from his single tax policy, which would mean decay for the countryside.
Mr. MacLAREN: I am sure the hon. Member does not wish to misrepresent me. The point he has been making is that the farmers cannot realise a sufficient price for the cattle they are producing. Before we discuss prices it is necessary to discuss the costs of production, and the hon. Member ought to tell the House what are the factors in the costs of production. That would enable the Committee to judge the influence of the various factors in the costs of production and why prices do not equal the costs of production. That is the point I am putting to the hon. Member. I may have fanciful notions in other directions, but I am trying to be logical on this point.
Mr. TURTON: The costs of production are made up of rent, wages and the costs of feeding stuffs. In most parts of the country the rent scale has gone down since the time when the Socialists came into power in 1929, feeding stuffs are at about the same level, and wages are slightly higher; but the price of beef has dropped from something like 50s. per cwt., in my constituency getting down to 30s. per cwt. last winter. For that reason, we say that common justice demands that we should be given a subsidy—nay, more than a subsidy, a proper price for our product. Knowing the logic of the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren), I should hardly think that he would deny that.
I was trying to deal, at the moment, not with his arguments but with the Liberal argument advanced by the hon.

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Member for Barnstaple, who said he wanted no subsidy without efficiency. But you must have some chance of making a profit before you can be efficient. If you were getting 48s. for good quality beef on the average, there would be no question at all about the efficiency of the product or the quality of the beef. The hon. Member made a monstrous attack upon butchers' shops when he said there had been hardly any improvement in them since the time of William the Conqueror. I understand that he is a practising lawyer; he ought to understand that the Public Health Acts require butchers' shops to be licensed, and secures that the animals are all properly, efficiently and cleanly killed. It is very wrong to throw such an aspersion on such a very large section of the community who are trying to carry out their obligations in regard to cleanliness and efficiency.
I felt even more deeply the last statement he made, when he said that we were not breeding the beef that the consumers required. I personally breed Shorthorn. One Scottish breeder has been paid 3,000 guineas for a bull to breed the beef that is coming into this country at later stage. How can the hon. Member say that our Shorthorn and Aberdeen Angus breed are not producing the quality that is required? There is no country that does not have to come to England and ask for better blood for its agricultural strains.
Mr. HARDIE: To Scotland, the hon. Member means.
Mr. TURTON: No, not only Scotland. If the hon. Gentleman will come to Yorkshire I can show him breeds as good as in Scotland. Scotland also has to come to Yorkshire, although we in Yorkshire do not talk so much as the Scottish. It is regrettable that there is to be a further delay of 12 months. The Government announced their long-term policy on 6th July, and we are enabling this temporary subsidy to be drawn until the end of July next year. I know it is, to a certain extent, merely a token extension, and that the Minister himself hopes that before that date his long-term policy will be in operation, but I can assure him that the delay is causing a great deal of disappointment. Livestock producers thought that some time this winter they
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would get a remunerative price for their product, through the operation of the Government's long-term policy.
Apart from their disappointment, I am the more concerned because, although the Minister has said that the present subsidy system is working smoothly, the one thing it is not doing is to encourage quality production in beef. The sooner that quality production is encouraged, the better it will be for agriculture. At the moment it is not economic to improve your beef production. You will lose far less money by producing poor quality beef. The temporary subsidy system does, in my view, enable beef to be passed by the graders acting perfectly impartially. I would contradict what was said by the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mr. De Chair) about the graders not acting impartially. My knowledge of grading centres in the North of England shows that the statement is quite untrue. Grading is entirely impartial.
Mr. De CHAIR: I did not wish to give the impression that graders were discriminating between one breeder and another in grading for the subsidy, but simply that it is difficult for graders in a local area to reject certain cattle for subsidy when they know that the man is having a hard time through no fault of his own. We have to pay great attention to this subject of grading in the future if we are to produce the best quality beef in England.
Mr. TURTON: I am glad of the correction of the hon. Gentleman, if I said anything that he did not say. He did speak of the difficulty of passing cattle. In my county that does not occur. I have watched grading taking place, and the graders pass the best quality of cattle. There were many that I should have rejected if I had wanted to see good quality beef in this country. How are we to get good quality beef? The Minister talked of payment being adjusted so as to give encouragement for good quality production. Where is the money to come from for that quality production? From the £5,000,000? Or is there to be extra assistance in order to encourage good quality? Another question is, how are you to encourage good quality? Is it by dividing your cattle into two grades, having one at a higher level, say a 10s. per cwt. level, and the other at a 4s. per cwt, level? Or

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how is it to be done? Farmers in this country are turning from store raising, or beef production, to milk production. The bull calves that are going into beef are not so good, partly because the type of cattle which is being bred tends to become dairy cattle rather than for beef.
Mr. HARDIE: That is what I was saying.
Mr. TURT0N: I agree with some of the remarks of the hon. Gentleman. It is also partly because cattle, when they are young, do not get that assistance from their mothers that we, who specialise in beef production, like them to have; they are not being fed from the cow, and the milk is going into the milk factory, eventually, perhaps, becoming dried milk. There are parts of this country which are suitable for dairy production, and other parts which are suitable for beef production. The importance of the Minister's long-term policy is that we shall, I hope, get a readjustment so that all the farmers who have gone into milk production from beef will come back to beef production.
The Minister made one statement that filled me with a good deal of doubt, and a certain amount of dismay. He said he would make provision for the payment from the Exchequer of a subsidy to producers of fat cattle in the United Kingdom, which,
"while not stimulating an artificial expansion of the home industry, will continue for so long as and to the extent that the situation may require."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th July, 1936; col. 843, Vol. 314.]
What does "not stimulating an artificial expansion of the home industry" mean? Is it going to stop farmers who have turned to milk production from going back to beef production? The Minister must face that question in his long-term policy for beef. You have to turn those milk producers back to beef production. When you do that, you will solve not only the problems of the beef industry but a good many of your problems in the milk industry. I hope that the Minister will give us an explanation of those words.
It is too early to say what the longterm policy of the Government will do for beef. People in the country believe that the Minister has attempted a sensible way of encouraging beef production without harming the consumer or
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the Exchequer. It is a fair method of regulation of imports, combined with a low duty and a subsidy. I hope that the duty will correspond fairly with the subsidy. The Minister has not told us, and he could not tell us, what the level of duty is, but I hope it is not so low as to make it necessary for the subsidy to be increased as the years go by. There has been very little opposition to the Minister's scheme. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) told us that he must vote against the temporary Financial Resolution to-night because, as I understand it, his party introduced the beet sugar subsidy in 1924, and the Government have continued it.
Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Will the hon. Gentleman, who is posted in all these fine points, be good enough to tell the truth about this matter? Is he not aware that the Beet Subsidy Bill was introduced by Lord Halifax, who was then Conservative Minister for Agriculture?
Mr. TURTON: I was not aware that I had made a mistake. If Lord Snowden did not introduce a Bill for the assistance of beet sugar, I naturally withdraw my remark, but my record of the history of the matter, and I think other hon. Members will bear me out, is that the first Socialist Government were one of the parties, if not the party, to give that assistance to beet sugar. I give them full marks for it, but I cannot understand, when the two Governments which the hon. Gentleman supported in 1924 and 1929 both voted for the beet sugar subsidy, why the hen. Gentleman should now say that because of the beet sugar subsidy he has to vote against the Financial Resolution for beef. That is not the kind of logic that I should expect from him.
The Liberal party, represented by the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts), said he had to vote against the Resolution because, under the temporary scheme, he had to put up the rents of his farm. I quite understand, if he has been tempted to commit an illegality because of the present temporary subsidy, that he may want that temptation to be withdrawn, but, as the Committee knows, under the Agricultural Holdings Act rents cannot be put up. If the hon. Member has put up his rents, may he be forgiven, and

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may he realise what the Act of Parliament is. I shall vote for the Financial Resolution, not because I am content with it, but because I realise that the Government's long-term policy will come soon and will help to make a more prosperous rural England.
7.44 p.m.
Mr. McKIE: I feel somewhat embarrassed at following the hon. Gentleman, because of the interruption from the Socialist benches made by a colleague who is a Scotsman. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) said that Yorkshiremen did not speak so much as Scotsmen, but perhaps, upon more mature and careful reflection, he may reverse the hasty verdict upon those of us who come from Scotland. It is true that Scotsmen, when they have something concrete to say, say it, but the Committee will agree that Scotsmen think a great deal before they speak.
The CHAIRMAN: I hope the hon. Member will soon come to the subject of the Resolution.
Mr. McKIE: I have no wish to transgress, because I realise that the point we are discussing is a very narrow one, namely, whether the subsidy shall be continued or not; but, when the point was raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander), your predecessor in the Chair did say that it would be in order, in discussing this narrow point, to refer to the long-term or permanent beef policy which the Minister announced in the House a few days ago. I do not wish to detain the Committee, and, indeed, I have great reluctance in addressing the Committee at all, because I only wish I could support with much greater alacrity than I can at present the proposals of the Minister so far as they have a bearing upon a permanent beef policy for this country.
Already four or five speeches have been delivered by Members representing Scottish constituencies, including four Scottish rural constituencies; and three of those speeches were delivered by Members representing Aberdeenshire. That was quite right and proper, in view of the very high quality of the beef produced in that north-eastern county of Great Britain, which has been repeatedly referred to in the Debate. I do not know, Sir Dennis, whether you heard those
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speeches, but some of them went far beyond the question of a permanent beef policy, and even included attempts to discuss agricultural policy in all its varied aspects. None of those speeches received very favourably the proposals to which the Committee are asked to assent tonight, or the long-term policy so far as it has been already divulged by my right hon. Friend and those associated with him.
I do not wish to suggest for a moment that Scotland is ungrateful for what my right hon. Friend has already done with regard to agriculture, and I should not be in order in doing more than merely refer to it, but I do not think anyone will seriously dispute that beef is the crux of the whole position, not only in Great Britain as a whole, but more particularly in that part of it called Scotland. My hon. Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. H. Stewart) gave us some very illuminating figures, which have been quoted many times in this House before, showing how much greater is the proportion of production of livestock in Scotland than is the case in South Britain. I hope that hon. Members both on the Liberal and on the Labour benches will consider that very carefully before they cast a hasty vote this evening. We have been waiting for a permanent policy for beef for something approaching five years. Agriculturists all over the country hailed the advent of the National Government as giving the farming industry a greater chance than ever it had had before of getting something done. I have already referred to the fact that a great deal has been done, but the fact remains that the cardinal factor, namely, the beef side of the livestock industry still remains practically untouched.
I know I shall be told, in answer to that statement, that subsidies have been continually voted and prolonged for something like 24 months with regard to this most vital matter, but it has also been repeatedly stated by Members of the party to which I have the honour to belong, and especially by Members representing agricultural constituencies, that they have no love for subsidies or doles whatsoever. It has been repeatedly stated, ever since the ill-timed Ottawa Agreements were entered into, and the Argentine Agreement, which followed speedily upon the agreements entered into in Canada in September, 1932, that

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the Government aimed at bringing about a state of things with regard to agriculture generally, and beef in particular, whereby the home producer should have the first place in our own market, that preference should be given to the Empire—the Dominions and Colonies—and that the third place, if there were a third place, should be reserved for foreign countries, particularly in regard to beef from Argentina, which desired to have trading or commercial relationships with us.
So far as the long-term beef policy has been divulged to us, I do not think it fulfils statements such as these. It might be much more correctly summed up, I think, as a Dominion and Imperial preference policy, and that is why, no doubt, it was hailed with such delight in the Beaverbrook and Rothermere Press. But we have been repeatedly urging upon the Government, ever since the Debates which took place in October, 1932, that we did not wish for a policy such as this, but for one which would give our home agriculturists in very truth the first place in the home market, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend, when he comes to reflect, will not expect us to receive it with the hearty admiration with which we should have received a policy such as was enunciated by the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) in his most interesting speech a few minutes ago.
Many hon. Members who have criticised these proposals have at the same time said, with the singular exception of my hon. Friend the Member for Central Aberdeen (Sir R. Smith), that they saw no other way but to support the prolongation of this subsidy to-night. My hon. Friend the Member for Central Aberdeen made a particularly interesting suggestion. He suggested that the Government might see fit to withdraw this Financial Resolution to-night and bring in one which, in November of the present year, would give the home producers the benefits of the policy which it is proposed should become permanent in July, 1937. That was a very interesting proposal, but I do not suppose that the Government will see fit even to consider it, must less to introduce it in the House before we adjourn for the Summer Recess; and I must say that, even if they did, I do not think they would be pursuing the best course, or one which I
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could possibly follow, because I am not satisfied that the long-term policy which has been adumbrated in the House, and which it is proposed should take effect in July, 1937, will meet the requirements of the home producer. Therefore, I see no other way but to support this policy to-night, and to urge upon the Minister and the Government as a whole the most careful reconsideration of their long-term policy with a view to seeing if they cannot produce a policy which will meet more nearly the requirements of the home producers of beef.
Hon. Members on the Opposition Benches have repeatedly gibed and sneered at the farming community, and have said that this was a policy of doles and subsidies, with no concern whatsoever for the consumers, and more particularly for the wage-earners. The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) talked about wages. I hope I shall not be trespassing beyond the Rulings which have been given by the Chair if I say that the hon. Member approached this matter from the point of view of the artisans in large towns and industrial centres, who, as well as being wage-earners, were also purchasers and consumers of beef. I am fully prepared to admit that it is perfectly right to have proper concern for these large classes of people, but I must say that one is bound to have concern also for the men and women on the land, and, unless industry generally can be raised to an economic level and put upon a productive basis, there is no doubt whatsoever that the wages both of agriculturists and of industrial artisans will continue to decrease. Therefore, I hope very much that hon. Members on the Labour benches who think on the lines of the hon. Member for Springburn will reconsider their attitude on this point.
There is one other thing that I want to say before I sit down. 1 listened with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), who speaks on these matters with a life-long association with agriculture, and, therefore, with a great deal of weight. He received this proposal and those which, as we presume, will follow it, somewhat coldly. He said that he had no love for Governmental interference, a point which was also dealt with by my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby). The

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right hon. Gentleman went on to indicate that he would prefer a direct tariff with regard to agriculture, and especially with regard to beef. In February, 1932, a Division took place in the House with regard to removing beef from the free list. There were only 44 of us, all Conservatives, who went into the Lobby on that occasion with a view to securing that meat in general should be subject to the 10 per cent. ad valorem duty. Of course, we were heavily defeated. I think there were only five Members from Scotland, three of them representing industrial constituencies, who had the temerity to oppose the National Government so early in the last Parliament. I only mention that to show that throughout these years, ever since the astounding results of October, 1931, we have been attempting to put matters on a sound and lasting basis for the beef producers of this country, and, therefore, I very much hope that some long-term proposals of a very much more favourable character will be put before the House before we come finally to settle this great and important matter.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) has repeatedly referred during the last four or five years to the necessity for placing our agriculture on a sound and lasting basis, and during the past few months he has returned to the charge and insisted that, in the overhauling and strengthening of our defence forces, the question of agriculture and meat production should be taken into the reckoning. The right hon. Gentleman always lays great stress upon Parliamentary criticism, and I hope that throughout the next few months we shall see his great energies devoted to impressing upon the Government the fact that the long-term proposals, so far as they have been announced, are inadequate and unlikely to solve the question of beef in the way in which it ought to be solved.
Mr. TURTON: May I be allowed to make a personal explanation? The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) challenged the accuracy of my statement that a Socialist Government introduced the beet sugar subsidy. On referring to the OFFICIAL REPORT, I find that On the 30th July, 1924, Lord Snowden—then Mr. Snowden—said:
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"The Government have accepted the policy of Exchequer assistance for the sugar beet industry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th July, 1924; col. 2110, Vol. 176.]
It is true that, owing to the General Election, Lord Snowden could not carry out that policy, and Lord Halifax introduced the Bill.
Mr. T. WILLIAMS: It is true that Philip Snowden made a speech, but the Bill that commenced the beet subsidy was introduced by the Conservative Minister of Agriculture in 1925.
8.1 p.m.
Mr. BARNES: If the Minister is satisfied with this Debate, he is very easily pleased. I have listened to all the speeches that have been delivered and not one has fully supported the policy of the Government.
Mr. De CHAIR: I supported it.
Mr. BARNES: I should have said that I missed two speeches, and I regret that one of them was the hon. Member's. But I am fortified in still holding that view owing to the dispute that developed between him and his colleague with regard to methods of grading and measures of that character. It is true that hon. Members opposite have all intimated their intention to accept this subsidy, but not one of them has expressed satisfaction either with the policy of the Government during the past two years or with the proposed long-term policy. I think the Minister should at least have satisfied the Committee that this £11,000,000 has been efficiently administered and disbursed. We have had no information beyond a general statement that the sum was justified as a stop-gap measure. We have had no information that it has been disbursed in a businesslike fashion. The Minister gave us no evidence that any tests are uniformly applied throughout the country or that the recipients of the money have had to accept any obligations in return for the grant. We have had no evidence that any steps have been taken to increase either the efficiency of the cattle industry or the quality of its production. I should like the Minister to address himself to these very legitimate questions and to state, yes or no, whether there has been a deterioration in quality and whether there has been a tendency to pass low-grade beasts

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through for the purpose of getting the subsidy.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman to state whether there is any justification for discriminating between producers who dispose of their beasts on the open market and companies and organisations which produce their own cattle for their own sale, and therefore have a direct inducement in maintaining the quality of production. The whole purpose of the subsidy is to produce British beef and to obtain a market and a sale for it. But those organisations which have expended capital and improved their farming output are compelled to go through the roundabout and expensive method of providing intermediary machinery, which adds to the cost of the article to the ultimate consumer for the purpose of getting the subsidy. Can the Minister tell us whether it has raised the quality of production? Has it prevented a fall in beef prices? Has it prevented farmers from turning over to milk production? Is the cattle industry more prosperous as the result of this subsidy? Can he prove that there is more employment on the land as a result of the subsidy and is there more land in actual cultivation? These are the material points that the Committee should consider if we are to expend large sums of public money in this way.
With regard to the long-term policy, I understand clearly now that the Government proposal, as expressed in the Minister's statement on 6th July, is that this direct subsidy to cattle breeders, which falls upon the taxpayers, is to be replaced by a levy on imported frozen and chilled meat. The cattle breeders are to be guaranteed £5,000,000 a year and, if the levy does not reach that sum, the Treasury is to make up the difference. It is grotesque to describe that as a long-term policy. It is merely a more vicious form of subsidising the industry. It introduces a new principle into the taxation system of the country. Let us examine whether the treatment that we are according to agriculture is justified by results. As a measure of comparison, the annual assistance that Parliament is giving the agricultural industry, mainly by direct grants to the farmer-owner side of the industry, amounts to, roughly, £40,000,000 a year. In other words, a small group of farmers
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are getting a larger sum from the State in direct grant, without any conditions whatever, than the 620,000 persons who are receiving public assistance. That is an outrageous and monstrous situation and is absolutely indefensible from the standpoint of equity or the national wellbeing. The total amount of relief disbursed to those in receipt of public assistance, most of whom are heads of families, only amounts to £39,000,000 a year, yet Parliament calmly continues a policy which is disbursing £40,000,000 a year to a limited number of recipients without any obligations being imposed upon them, without any test as to their need or as to the desirability of this grant, and without any provision whatever that any part of this huge sum goes to the agricultural workers or in any way protects the consumers.
There must be something radically wrong with such a policy. We are confronted with a proposal to bury the subsidy of £11,000,000, in, roughly, three years, which is to come to an end in July, 1937. That is what is happening with regard to all these subsidies. They start first of all as payments from the Treasury, and then the Government cannot avoid the necessity of coming repeatedly before Parliament for a renewal of the subsidy, so the policy of public doles to well-to-do persons without any test continually comes under review and receives public attention. These subsidies create such a sense of scandal in the public mind that the Government's position becomes increasingly intolerabl and, after a period, the Government proceed to bury the subsidy by bringing in legislation to avoid repeated renewal.
Sir JOSEPH LAMB: The hon. Member is making the claim that the public receive no benefit whatever from the subsidy. As a matter of fact, the public have received large quantities of food at less than the cost of production.
Mr. BARNES: I was not dealing with the question of public benefit, though I shall be delighted to deal with that later on. I was dealing with this problem from the angle of the public interest. I was endeavouring to prove that the policy upon which the Government have always originally commenced in regard to these matters, that is, the payment of a grant from the Exchequer, requires

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repeated renewal in this House. It becomes a public scandal. The policy of the Government, expressed in this instance in a long-term policy, is to bury it in some legislative act which makes it permanent so that public opinion cannot follow it. In this case Member after Member has referred to the fact that it is to be a levy on imports, and it is very difficult for the average citizen in this country to grasp what a levy on imports means. In this case it is a direct levy upon the British housewife. That is what the scheme amounts to. It is the transferring of a burden of £5,000,000 a year from the taxpayer to the British housewife. It does not even rest there. It is a transference to the poorest type of British housewife, and it is to that which I object.
I venture to suggest that there is not a Member in this House who eats frozen or chilled beef. Our incomes are sufficient to enable us to purchase English beef when we want that commodity, and here we are transferring a burden of £5,000,000 a year from the taxpayer by passing it on to a specific section of the trade—the frozen and chilled meat imported into this country ostensibly from foreign countries. The legitimate business question here is: Who is it in this country who purchases this frozen and chilled meat? That is the material question, and you will find that it is the poorest wage-earner and the poorest type of person who purchases frozen and chilled meat. Therefore, we are transferring this burden of £5,000,000 a year to the people least able to bear it. Although in the early days of petrol and motor taxation there were undertakings given that the sum raised from motor taxation would be used, in this case, for the public service of road development, in the last Budget we reversed that principle, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by hon. Members opposite, established the principle that there should be no earmarked taxation in this country for a specific service or a specific interest. We are familiar with taxes for revenue purposes and with tariffs for the purpose of reducing or equalising the cost of production, to increase profits and at the same time produce revenue for the Treasury. But this is the first time that we have been confronted with a proposal in this House in which it is suggested that we should impose a revenue tax upon a food
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commodity consumed by the poorest section of the community to reduce the cost to another class of the community, and that the revenue derived from that tax should be earmarked as a personal gift to a limited number of individuals in this country. If that revenue tax does not reach the sum it is designed to produce, the Treasury will make up the difference to ensure the income to the individuals concerned. That is a policy which should be strongly opposed on this side of the Committee.
The Minister in introducing the Financial Resolution tried to convince hon. Members on this side of the Committee—his own supporters might be more easily convinced on this matter—that the policy of the Government had reduced the prices of foodstuffs. The President of the Board of Trade admitted in this House a few weeks ago that in regard to milk, potatoes and fish, three commodities governed by the action of Government legislation, the level of those prices was far in excess of the level of food prices prevailing in this country. If you take those three specific commodities, the action of the Government has substantially increased prices to the consumers in this country. I have had 25 years' experience of the largest food organisation in this country, and I speak without hesitation in saying that the factor which causes a person to decide whether he shall purchase British beef or foreign beef is entirely one of income. This commodity, perhaps more than any other article, is the selected choice on the part of the consumer. In many manufactured lines, packing, variety and matters of that kind enter as well as the price when you compare the foreign article with the British-made article. But with regard to beef, if the whole of the consumers of this country—I make practically no exception for effective purposes—were able to exercise a free choice in the purchase and the consumption of British beef on the one hand, or frozen or chilled beef on the other, there is not the slightest doubt upon which side their choice would fall. It would be on the side of British beef every time, because in quality, nutriment, taste and everything else, it has an apparent and unquestionable advantage as far as the consumer is concerned. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members agree with that position, and

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we can decide that from our own experience.
Therefore, that brings rue to the next point. We are considering the prosperity of the British cattle industry, and I do not care from whatever angle you take it, every Member in this House, and the general opinion throughout the country desires a prosperous British countryside. You never will get a prosperous British countryside until you harmonise the interests of the industrial towns with the countryside. I have stated publicly in other places than on the Floor of this House that I, as a representative of one of the largest food organisations in this country, accept completely the position that the agricultural wage earner and worker is entitled to exactly the same standard of living as his colleague in the town. I make that submission without any qualification whatever. The producers of foodstuffs and raw materials, still represent the majority of the populations of the world, and you will never get any balanced economic system until the purchasing power of that vast mass of the community can equal the productive power of the industrial side.
Having made that position clear, I come now to the policy that we should be supporting, instead of these inevitable doles to the farmers. The policy of the Minister of Agriculture, whether we like it or not, whether the farmers want it or not, is making the farming community the greatest spongers of this. age, and I submit that any policy that does that is wrong. The policy of subsidies of marketing boards, licensing and such like, is leading agriculture in the wrong direction. We have had proof of that fact to-night. The right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) admitted that agricultural labour had declined in this country from 1921 to 1936 bp 20 per cent. Seeing that in our industrial communities we depend for the continual replenishment of the virility of the race by drawing on the countryside population, a decline of 20 per cent. in agricultural labour is serious in another direction apart from the angle from which I am arguing. Who is responsible for that decline of 20 per cent. in agricultural labour? The Labour Government cannot be blamed for that situation.
Mr. HENDERSON STEWART: Why not?
Mr. BARNES: I am now dealing with a period from 1921 to 1936.
Mr. STEWART: In that period there were two Labour Governments.
Mr. BARNES: In that period of 15 years the Conservative party has held power in this House for 12 years. Therefore, if there has been a decline in the agricultural labour to that extent, the party opposite is responsible. I am opposed to this policy of subsidies and levies for the reason that it puts the producer into antagonism against the consumer; it puts the seller against the buyer; there is conflict between the producer, the manufacturer and the distributor; there is antagonism between the home producer and the Dominion producer, and also between the Dominion producer and the foreign producer. Finally, it produces a psychological antagonism between the industrial towns and the countryside. Despite all the irritation that the Minister of Agriculture has set up by this policy of subsidies and doles, the fact remains that in this House and throughout the country there is general good will towards the agricultural industry.
I would appeal to the Minister to change his policy and to stop the policy of handing out public money, with no return to the nation as a whole. I would suggest that he ought to follow an entirely different policy. He should seek to bring in and mobilise this good will towards agriculture. He should bring into consultation and effective collaborative machinery those who produce the cattle—this applies to other commodities as well—and bring into consultation the distributive side of the industry, and proceed along those lines. Admitting the point that I made earlier, that the farmer, like everyone else, is entitled to a fair return for his commodity and that the agricultural wage-earner is entitled to a standard of living comparable to that of the worker in the town, that places upon the industry as a whole and not on a section of the industry, the obligation of seeing that the total product of that industry should provide the economic fund from which to meet all the costs of the industry, including the wage costs. We do that in regard to 80 or 90 per cent. of

1773
other commodities in this country. Instead of using £40,000,000 a year on a policy of subsidies that brings us nowhere at the end of each successive year, if the Minister would call the whole trade into co-operation and consultation, and develop the machinery by which each trade element would accept the obligation of finding the fund whereby the industry would become economic, we should be getting to a reasonable situation.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Member has forgotten that we are not in Committee of Supply, and that we are not dealing with general agricultural policy.
Mr. BARNES: I thought that I was within your ruling, because you said that we could deal with the long-term policy involved, and I was suggesting to the Minister that, instead of introducing this policy of subsidy and levy, he should follow the lines that I have endeavoured to indicate, because it is only by a policy of co-operation between all the elements in the industry that we shall get the fund. The whole discussion of the subsidy today has revolved round the question whether this means an obligation on the cattle industry. I am opposed to subsidies of whatever character for providing that fund. Anybody who produces, sells or buys a commodity has certain obligations to meet. Employers have certain obligations to meet. We must accept the obligation that those who produce a commodity are entitled to a proper standard of living. Speaking for a consumers' organisation, we are never afraid to face the problem of a standard living in any industry that produces a specific commodity. If the Minister would explore that view I am convinced that there is sufficient good will prevailing generally towards a solution of the problem.
Mr. HENDERSON STEWART: The hon. Member says that if some co-operation or arrangement took place between the producers, the manufacturers and the distributors, a higher fund would be created and that the price to the farmer would he increased. How is that to be arrived at? It must be either by raising the price to the consumer or lowering the profit to the retailer.
Mr. BARNES: No. We have had an illustration in the House to-day. The
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Postmaster-General announced a drastic and universal reduction in telephone charges. That is an instance where by enormously increasing the service to the consumers the great volume of increased business will cover the cost involved. That is a policy which is being followed by a State Department. By extending the use of telephones, by a greater consumption, you reduce the cost of the whole. I do not accept the position that co-operation of this kind can only be obtained either by raising prices to the consumer or reducing the wages of the worker. By proper co-operation and efficient methods you should be able to raise a fund by which you can reduce the price to the consumer, give him a better quality article, and at the same time provide a better standard of living for the producer.
The hon. and gallant Member for Petersfield (Major Dorman-Smith) is, I believe, President of the National Farmers' Union. I do not know whether he was speaking as the President of the Union, when he said that he would be delighted if the powers of the marketing boards could be extended to take over the co-operative societies of the country. I do not know whether he was speaking jocularly or seriously, but there is a large body of opinion in this country who should know whether the hon. and gallant Member was speaking seriously or not, because a statement of that kind affects the largest body of organised consumers in this country who have been of considerable assistance to the agricultural industry in assisting them to raise prices, where they could be legitimately raised, in marketing standard beef and in various other ways. That body of consumers is entitled to know whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman was making a declaration of his real mind or whether it was a jocular remark.
Major DORMAN-SMITH: I was, of course, not speaking as the President of the National Farmers' Union but as Member for Petersfield. The hon. Member will recollect that the speech before dealt with powers to take over distribution, and I merely said that we had not powers to take over distribution, but that I should love the opportunity of taking over such an efficient organisation as the Co-operative Society.
Mr. BARNES: If any organisation is to take place in the field of distribution I submit that it should not be a question of removing the efficient in favour of the inefficient organisation, but to replace private enterprise, which has lamentably failed in all directions, by a co-operative and public system. That is the longterm policy which, if the Minister does not, we hope to carry out.
8.39 p.m.
Mr. MacLAREN: It is a little presumptuous that one like myself should intervene in a Debate on agriculture, but I submit that economics are involved, and they are very important. I represent people who will have to contribute to this large amount of money which is to be paid and, therefore, it is important we should consider what is going to happen. I never listen to these discussions on doles without my memory going back to what happened in Denmark, where the farmers held a mass meeting and passed a resolution calling upon the Government to give them no subsidies of any kind They did not want them. All they asked was that the Government should leave them alone, remit taxation on their industry and they were willing to meet world competition. In England the position is just the opposite. Hon. Members have asked the Government to be good enough to change their mode of action. That is an appeal which will fall on deaf ears. The Conservative party are determined to dig themselves into the agricultural areas by the corrupt method of doling shoals of money out of the Exchequer into the pockets of the agricultural interest.
But let us be fair. It is true that farmers arc getting a large amount of money from the State, but we should distribute our indictment over a wider area. Many farmers are not getting the full enjoyment of the doles which they expected to get, and there is a positive ramp among the retailers of the country who handle the commodities upon which they know farmers have received a subsidy. How long are British farmers to remain in these seventeenth century conditions? Look a6 Denmark. The Danish farmer farms his soil, pools his produce with other farmers in a co-operative method, and sells his stuff under a co-operative system, but the British farmer is too often to be found
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in the market-place looking for the next day's hunt rather than for the next day's business, and he finds himself done by the retailer. When one looks at the archaic methods in which British farming is carried on, one is positively ashamed. We are going to give another £40,000,000 by way of dole. Where is it going? The difficulty is to know where it is going. One hon. Member after another has said that the farmers are not getting it. Who is getting it? Two or three champions have said that the very suggestion that the landlords are getting it in increased rents is an awful suggestion. They say that the landlords are not getting it.
The farmer is not getting it, and the landlord is not getting it. Who is getting it? It can only be the labourer. Have the wages of the labourer increased by £40,000,000 per annum? Where is this large chunk of subsidy going? Will any hon. Member opposite have the decency to get up in his place and tell me—because I am in rather a quandary—where this subsidy is going? We all know that ultimately it goes to rent. [Interruption.] Some hon. Members opposite rather object to that statement. I remember sitting in this Chamber listening to Lord Thankerton on the Derating Bill. Let me recall that evening to the House. I had been battling on the Bill so far as the English section was concerned, but when Lord Thankerton introduced the Scottish section I asked him, "As a Scotsman, you will be logical: If rating relief is given to agriculture, who will get it in the end?" He said—how could he speak otherwise after that flattery?—"Tenants come and go; the final claimant of all reliefs and advantages attaching to the land will be the person who gets the rent." That is where these doles are going, and they cannot go anywhere else. The tenant farmers, when their leases run out, will find out where the doles have gone. The pouring out of these millions ostensibly for the purpose of helping to maintain agriculture is the greatest farce there ever was in this House; it is the greatest insult to human intelligence.
Take any other industry in the country as an illustration of what is happening; industry X, let us say, is not paying; it cannot afford to pay proper wages; so

1777
the best thing to do is not to worry, but to send some people from the industry to the House to impose upon the Government for the purpose of getting a subsidy. That is where we are going in modern administration and modern Government. It is not now a matter of going into the industry, putting one's back into it, and organising it properly; everybody is now concerned to get into the House of Commons such a considerable element of influence as will compel the Government to give a subsidy. The agricultural industry has done that extremely well since the debacle of 1931. I asked a question to-day as to the cost of production—
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Member's speech would be more suitable on the Vote for the Minister's salary.
Mr. MacLAREN: We are an Opposition fighting subsidies on principle, and in fighting this vicious thing as a principle it is extremely difficult not to correlate it to other things that are going on. However, I will try my best to keep within the strict ambit of your Ruling. I asked a question to-day as to the cost of production. That is very essential, because the whole argument advanced in favour of the subsidy this afternoon was that the prices paid did not cover the cost of production, and that therefore it was necessary to have a subsidy from the State. Surely, it is necessary that those responsible for this policy should make to the House a statement as to what is the cost of the production of beef in this country and what are the factors that enter into the cost of production, in order that we may analyse the various elements that cause an increase in the cost of production. I submit that in relation to that we should discuss why it is that the consumers cannot pay enough to cover the fair costs of the production of beef in this country. Those points have not been discussed to-day. It is an imposition on the taxpayers for the Government merely to ask for an extension of this subvention without giving reasons and facts for the demand they are making on the taxpayers of the country.
Before I sit down let me say to the hon. Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) that we have come to this chronic state
1778
in modern civilisation. The Government raise taxes, and have the power to do what they like with them. Everybody, except a few on these benches, is against Socialism, but to-day we have been told that the Government raise taxes, or has the power to raise money to grant subsidies to any industry in the country, for the purpose, as the hon. Member for Stone said in an interjection, of giving cheap food to the people. That is the lopsided condition of civilisation in this country and in many others.
Sir J. LAMB: I am sorry to interrupt, but the hon. Member has not quoted me correctly. I said that the subsidy had enabled the public to have a great amount of food at less than the cost of production.
Mr. MacLAREN: First of all the workers have to be thrashed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pay taxes and this reduces the income they have to spend on the things they want. These taxes which are wrung out of the working classes—£800,000,000 this year—and which reduce the income which the workers might have with which to buy things they want, are taken by the Government so that they can be given to the farmers in order that the farmers will be able to give cheap food to the workers. Hon. Members opposite may not like Socialism as preached from these benches, but I submit that the kind of Socialism which I have been referring is the most insane form of Socialism of which I have ever heard. In two or three cases we were assured to-day that food is being given to the workers at less than the cost of production. The argument was that subsidies from the Government were to help farmers to give the workers food at less than the cost of production. It would be far better to leave the workers of the country with wages in their hands which would enable them to pay like men and women for the things they want, and to pay in true equation to the full value of the things they buy. The working classes of the country do not want your damned charity. Furthermore, they do not want Governments that lay a heavy burden of taxation on them, extracting out of them the millions that go to the farmers and the vested interests of the country. It is becoming nauseating and disgusting to see every day in this House hon. Mem-

1779
bers rising and demanding a subsidy, some new tap on the State at a time when the Budget is rising to a point that may intimidate the development of the country. £800,000,000 in the Budget and £165,000,000 in local rates—and day by day somebody appeals for more subsidies to the vested interests which are sucking the people of the country! Let us be done with this cant and humbug.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member may not make such a speech on this Resolution.
Mr. MacLAREN: There are times in this House when genuine indignation should be expressed, and I think I am keeping within your Ruling when I say that here again we have evidence of vested interests abusing this House. Another £5,000,000—another £500,000,000—agriculture in this country should be damned well ashamed of itself—
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Member cannot restrain his indignation, I hope he will restrain his language.
Mr. MacLAREN: It gave expression to what I meant. The agricultural industry ought to be ashamed that it cannot stand on its own feet. But the agriculturists have not the courage to do so and to throw off the parasites—and there are many—that are on the back of the industry to-day. The Tory party may think that by this process they are doing well. They may think that they are securing more votes in the agricultural districts by this form of corruption—by pilfering the taxpayer to corrupt the country voter. I am aware that no appeal from this side will ever move them from that course. They can go on with it, but there will be an end to it when the industrial section of the country begin to find that, despite these subventions from the State, the cost of living is not going down and taxation is rising. It would be well for statesmen in this Country to try to correlate the lives of the people in the country with the lives of the people in, the cities and to remove vested interests, rather than to pile up difficulties for future Governments. It would be far better to have an independent citizenship in this country than to have vast sections dependent on doles, and charity, and subventions from the coffers of the State.
8.57 p.m.
Mr. ELLIOT: It is a very severe strain on a Scotsman to have to remain silent, while listening to so much argument with which he passionately disagrees, and it is clear that. we are still at some distance from agreement on this subject. I doubt whether it would be possible for me to resolve our differences this evening, and it would therefore be desirable that a certain amount of our argument, at Any rate, should be left over to the Debates which will take place later on this Bill and on the long-term policy. It may seem a work of supererogation to remind the Committee that we are not now discussing in detail the long-term policy. We are not discussing a tariff on imports to-night except by way of reference, and the suggestion that the subsidy is, in some way, a tariff on imports is one which is not borne out by the facts. The Committee will excuse me, therefore, if I do not attempt to-night to use arguments to justify A tariff on imports, when we are discussing a narrower and entirely different point.
As I say, there is clearly some difference between us and it arises, I think, from the fact that we have not yet fully appreciated each other's point of view. It is true that no wholehearted support of the Government's proposal has been brought forward because, on this side, the complaint is made that the assistance offered is so small that it will fail to carry out the object which we all have in view, whereas on the other side it is argued that this is a lavish and unconscionable pouring out of what hon. Members call public money, and that it is a scandal which ought to be ended at the earliest possible moment. The truth must lie somewhere between those two extremes, and I think it lies somewhere along the line which the Government have chosen. I shall have great pleasure in arguing that point later but I do not propose to do so to-night and I am sure the Committee does not expect me to do so. Many of the speeches to-night were made because honest indignation, seizing a Parliamentary opportunity, found a useful outlet or because of a feeling that this was a good opportunity for making a speech which would go down very well with one's constituents, and I cant of he expected to cover all the points which were raised in that way. But I think it ought to

1781
be pointed out that there is a reply to questions such as that of the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) who asked where all the money paid in these subsidies is going. It is not difficult to answer that question.
The hon. Member said the money was not going to the landlords and was not going to the farmer and he asked was it going to the labourer. Has he not thought of a fourth party? Has he not thought of the consumer? Has he not considered that the fall of £150,000,000 since 1929 in the annual cost of food alone more than swallows up all the sum voted by this House in the way of assistance? No, it is not at all difficult to say where the assistance is going and it is all the easier when figures are slashed about in an irresponsible way by the hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Barnes), and sometimes by the hon. Member for Burslem, who was not sure in one case whether a figure which he used by way of illustration was £5,000,000 or £500,000,000. As the hon. Member himself said, his speech was an outburst of honest indignation and he finds it possible to work up as much honest indignation over £5,000,000 as others would express over £500,000,000.
Mr. MacLAREN: I have heard the right hon. Gentleman himself make slips.
Mr. ELLIOT: As long as the hon. Member puts it down as a slip, I accept his statement, but the hon. Member for East Ham, South declared that £40,000,000 had been given in subsidies. I have checked the figures, and the total does not amount to half that sum. He can only get the figure up to that high level by bringing in the whole of the derating relief which is given to industry as well as to agriculture. Indeed a far larger sum is given by way of derating in industry than in agriculture. If he seeks to bring in also all reliefs in Income Tax and other taxation, I must remind him that people get very large sums in remission of taxation and that in the House of Commons we do riot regard remissions of taxation necessarily as subsidies. Apart from the honest indignation, I think the question as to where the subsidy went was the only question which the hon. Member for Burslem put to me and I hope he will take that as my reply.
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The hon. Member for East Ham, South asked several definite questions, and as I take it that he was winding up the Debate for the official Opposition, I desire as far as possible to give him specific answers. He asked if there had been a deterioration in quality, and whether low grade animals were being passed for subsidy. I should not say that there has been a deterioration in quality on the average. I think low-grade beef has been brought up, though high grade beef may have been brought down to some extent. There may have been a certain lowering in the quality of high grade beef put on the market but it is known to those who have watched the operation of the subsidy that there has also been a raising of the quality of the lower grade beef put on the market. The hon. Member also asked what steps were being taken to deal with possible fraud. The certification of animals is carried out, jointly, by three persons in full view of the public and surprise visits to the certification centres are made by inspectors and local supervisors. During the period of the subsidy up to 30th June last 34 cases have been investigated in which it appeared possible that fraud existed. I can give particulars of the types of cases now or at another time if required.
Mr. BARNES: When the Bill is introduced will the Minister give us some idea of the reports of the inspectors?
Mr. ELLIOT: Certainly, and I will run over the figures as to the cases I have just mentioned. In eight cases proceedings were taken; in two of these cases fines were imposed, while two cases were found to be not proven and four cases were dismissed. Of the remaining 26 cases, in 15 instances there was insufficient evidence on which to prosecute, in 10 no evidence was offered and one case is still under investigation. I think a reasonable effort is being made to keep a check on the process and in many cases into which investigation has been made no actual fraud was found. The hon. Member asked further as to the position of the producer butcher. That has often been a subject of controversy between myself and the co-operative societies, The point was brought to my notice by the St. Leonards Society of Scotland and I have said more than once that I am not ruling out of consideration this matter in connection with any further scheme

1783
which might replace the existing arrangements. I am glad to give that assurance again. He asked me whether the subsidy had prevented a fall in prices. I think it has. I think no practical agriculturist would deny that, lacking a subsidy, the cattle producers of this country would be in very much greater difficulties than they are to-day. He asked if it had started farmers turning over to beef. I do not think the effect has been sufficiently great, and that is one reason why I think assistance will have to be given. He asked: Is there more production? Between 31st May, 1934, and 31st May, 1935, production went up by 1,300,000 cwt., or nearly 10½ per cent., so I think it is clear that production has gone up coincidentally with the assistance which has been given. Those were the main arguments which he made, apart from the general case, which I do not wish to open to-night.
I will say. in passing, that there was never any question that a considerable proportion of any relief would be passed on to the workers, the employed people, in the industry, as is proved by the fact that the agricultural industry in this country only lost a small proportion of its 1929 level of wages, and that the whole of that has since been recovered, whereas the agricultural wages in other countries, even countries such as Australia and the United States of America, fell by 30 and 40 per cent., and those falls have not yet been recovered.
The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) made the point whether I could say what was the fair price for beef. It was repeated by hon. Members from various sides of the Committee. I think it is clear that the ultimate test for maintaining the price of beef is this: Is the price such that producers are continuing to produce, or are they giving up the production of beef? I do not think it would be possible to work out and commend to this Committee some actual costings figure in order to get the production of beef. So many factors go into it. That was mentioned by one of the hon. Members for Aberdeen and repeated by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby). Clearly it would be a task almost impossible to work out, unless you also had wages—which are one of the most important factors in the cost of pro-
1784
duction—fixed. If you clamp agricultural wages at their present level, the cost of production would be such and such. If you cut wages to the pre-war point, it would certainly be very much lower, but I think the simplest way is—given all the existing factors, given the cost of feeding stuffs, given the level of wages and the possibility of a rise in wages—are the producers continuing to produce or are they beginning to go out of business?
The reason I am commending this arrangement and other arrangements to the Committee is that, with the present level, the producers are beginning to go out of business. It seems, therefore, that the price is below the fair cost of the article, and when the hon. Member for Burslem asks, "Why not let the thing stand on its own feet"? that seems to me to omit altogether the enormous question o the importations from overseas. If, of course, we were allowed to cut off all imports from overseas, immediately prices would rise considerably, and we should not require a subsidy, but surely the hardship which that would inflict on the great industrial population in our towns is far greater than the relative inconvenience of this method, whereby the whole of these matters are fully debated before the House.
The costings were brought out by my hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine (Sir M. Barclay-Harvey). One could bring down to this Committee a number of costings. I think every agriculturist would say that the only danger of doing that would be to show that the present rate of assistance was so small that in fact it should be £10,000,000 instead of £5,000,000. Whether that would please hon. and right hon. Members opposite, I do not know, but, judging by many of their remarks to-night, I fear it would lead to a great deal of condemnation from that side of the Committee. Hon. Members from the Opposition Liberal Benches, the hon. Members for Cumberland, North (Mr. W. Roberts) and Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) laid an undue weight on marketing. If they will read the report of Lord Bingley's Reorganisation Commission for Fat Stock, they will find that although he did attach a great deal of importance to marketing, yet—I am quoting the opening paragraph:

1785
"Our study of the meat supplies of Great Britain has shown that the downward course of live stock and meat prices has been closely associated with the rapid increase of meat imports in recent years, an increase which was accelerated with devastating effects on the meat market generally in 1931 and 1932."
Their main conclusion was that imports should be further regulated and that the machinery should be tightened up. I do not think that you can quote the report of the Bingley Commission, which, by the way, included experts of all sections of opinion in this country, including Sir John Orr, in evidence as proving that marketing reform alone would bring about a solution of this problem.
Mr. W. ROBERTS: Am I not right in thinking that imports to-day are down to the level of 1929?
Mr. ELLIOT: In 1931 and 1932 imports were held at or about that level, but the great increase which took place before 1931–32, which, as the Bingley report said, had a devastating effect on the meat market, has not been taken away, for the reason that we desire the maximum supply to consumers in the towns. It is for that reason that we must approach the matter by another route, and if we do not cut down supplies, we must give assistance to the producer in some other way, and that way is the way which I commend to the Committee to-night. There have been thoughtful speakers, such as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Peters-field (Major Dorman-Smith) and the hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Richards), whose contributions to the Debate I especially welcomed because they brought up the question of the store man in Wales, who has had a difficult time. I think it is true that the assistance is now passing more to the store man and, indeed, that the graziers say that he is getting at present all and more than all that he is entitled to.
I think the arguments which have been brought forward from the North-East Coast bring us up against the very difficult position of the producers in that particular area. I think it is true that the quality production, which was commended not merely from North-East Coast Members, but from others, is at present jeopardised by the course of events, and
1786
I think it would be necessary to ensure that in any scheme which we bring forward to this House quality production shall receive assistance and that the high grade of the North-East Coast and elsewhere should not be crushed out by any scheme of assistance to general cattle production. But I hope that in the scheme brought forward we shall not hear too much of assistance being given only to the rich man's luxury speciality, for, believe me, the poor man does buy quality beef, and among the biggest consumers of quality beef are the very co-operative societies of which the hon. Member for East Ham, South, and the right hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) have often spoken. Let them not run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. When the poor man buys quality beef, they cannot say that anyone who assists the production of quality beef is giving assistance only to Members who sit on this side of the Committee and those who dine at the Ritz.
I shall not go into the organisation arguments, but I should like to deal with the simple question whether, indeed, any assistance given to the home producer is assistance given to the rich man and not to the poor man. That is not borne out by the facts. I said at the beginning that it was more a question of the south end of the island against the north, and that is what the statistics bear out. Thirty per cent. of the beef sold in London is home-produced, but 70 per cent. of the beef sold in Glasgow is home-produced. Are we to be told that Glasgow is a great booming city in a burst of prosperity, where everybody is rich, and that London is poor, ragged, down at heel and is being penalised by our present proposals? It is not so, and I am sure that we shall be able to prove, as these Debates go on, that we are bringing forward a policy which we can commend confidently to all sections of opinion in the House, and which still holds the field as the only practical way of dealing with the great difficulties in which agriculture and livestock production find themselves to-day.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 222; Noes, 114.

Division No. 284.]

AYES

[3.45 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

Cranborne, Viscount

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

Crooke, J. S.

Hopkinson, A.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir R. S.

Albery, Sir I. J.

Cross, R. H.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

Crossley, A. C.

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

Cruddas, Col. B.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Culverwell, C. T.

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

Hulbert, N. J.

Apsley, Lord

Davison, Sir W. H.

Hunter, T.

Assheton, R.

Dawson, Sir P.

Jackson, Sir H.

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

De Chair, S. S.

James, Wing-Commander A. W.

Atholl, Duchess of

De la Bère, R.

Joel, D. J. B.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Keeling, E. H.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Denville, Alfred

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Balnell, Lord

Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

Kirkpatrick, W. M.

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Donner, P. W.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

Latham, Sir P.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Drewe, C.

Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

Bernays, R. H.

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Bird, Sir R. B.

Dugdale, Major T. L.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Blair, Sir R.

Duggan, H. J.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Blindell, Sir J.

Duncan, J. A. L.

Levy, T.

Bossom, A. C.

Dunglass, Lord

Lewis, O.

Boulton, W. W.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Liddall, W. S.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Ellis, Sir G.

Lindsay, K. M.

Brass, Sir W.

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Lloyd, G. W.

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Entwistle, C. F.

Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Fox, Sir G. W. G.

Lumley, Capt. L. R.

Bull, B. B.

Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Bullock, Capt. M.

Furness, S. N.

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Butler, R. A.

Fyfe, D. P. M.

McCorquodale, M. S.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.)

Cartland, J. R. H.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Cary, R. A.

Gluckstein, L. H.

McKie, J. H.

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

Maclay, Hon. J. P.

Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

Goldie, N. B.

Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Goodman, Col. A. W.

Maitland, A.

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. Br.W.)

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Markham, S. F.

Channon, H.

Grimston, R. V.

Maxwell, S. A.

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Clarke, F. E.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Clarry, Sir Reginald

Hannah, I. C.

Mitchell, Sir W Lane (Streatham)

Colfox, Major W. P.

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Mitcheson, Sir G. G.

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Moreing, A. C.

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Morgan, R. H.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff(W'st'r S.G'gs)

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.)

Hepworth, J.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Craddock, Sir R. H.

Holmes, J. S.

Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Munro, P.

Salmon, Sir I.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

Sutcliffe, H.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.

Sandeman, Sir N. S.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Palmer, G. E. H.

Sandys, E. D.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Patrick, C. M.

Scott, Lord William

Touche, G. C.

Peake, O.

Selley, H. R.

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Petherick, M.

Shakespeare, G. H.

Turton, R. H.

Pilkington, R.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Wakefield, W. W.

Plugge, L. F.

Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Warrender, Sir V.

Raikes, H. V. A. M

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Wayland, Sir W. A.

Ramsbotham, H.

Smithers, Sir W.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

Remer, J. R.

Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, E.)

Withers, Sir J. J.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Ropner, Colonel L.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Runciman, Rt. Hon. W.

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Sir George Penny and Lieut.-

Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Strickland, Captain W. F.

NOES.

Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

Hardie, G. D.

Pritt, D. N.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Harris, Sir P. A.

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Ritson, J.

Adamson, W. M.

Jagger, J.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

John, W.

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Banfield, J. W.

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Salter, Dr. A.

Barnes, A. J.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Sexton, T. M.

Barr, J.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Shinwell, E.

Batey, J.

Kelly, W. T.

Short, A.

Bellenger, F.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Simpson, F. B.

Benson, G.

Kirby, B. V.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Cluse, W. S.

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Cocks, F. S.

Leach, W.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Cove, W. G.

Lee, F.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Dagger, G.

Leslie, J. R.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Dalton, H.

Logan, D. G.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Day, H.

Lunn, W.

Thorne, W.

Dobbie, W.

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Thurtle, E.

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

McEntee, V. La T.

Tinker, J. J.

Ede, J. C.

McGhee, H. G.

Walkden, A. G.

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

Mainwaring, W. H.

Walker, J.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Marklew, E.

Watkins, F. C.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Mathers, G.

Whiteley, W.

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr, R. T. H.

Maxton, J.

Williams, D. (Swansea, E.)

Garro Jones, G. M.

Messer, F.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Montague, F.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Naylor, T. E.

Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Noel-Baker, P. J.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Paling, W.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Parker, J.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Potts, J.

Mr. Charleton and Mr. Groves.

Divison No. 285.]

AYES.

[9.16 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col, G. J.

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Everard, W. L.

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Fildes, Sir H.

O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

Albery, Sir I. J.

Fremantle, Sir F. E.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.

Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

Furness, S. N.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Fyfe, D. P. M.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Ganzoni, Sir J.

Patrick, C. M.

Apsley, Lord

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Peake, O.

Aske, Sir R. W.

Gluckstein, L. H.

Penny, Sir G.

Assheton, R.

Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

Petherick, M.

Atholl, Duchess of

Goldie, N. B.

Pilkington, R.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Goodman, Col. A. W.

Plugge, L. F.

Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

Gower, Sir R. V.

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Ramsbotham, H.

Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

Grimston, R. V.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Rankin, R.

Blair, Sir R.

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Bossom, A. C.

Gunston, Capt. D. W.

Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

Boulton, W. W.

Hanbury, Sir C.

Remer, J. R.

Bower, Comdr. R. T.

Hannah, I. C.

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle)

Ropner, Colonel L.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Hepworth, J.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Bull, B. B.

Holmes, J. S.

Salmon, Sir I.

Burghley, Lord

Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

Butler, R. A.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Hunter, T.

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

Cartland, J. R. H.

Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

Scott, Lord William

Carver, Major W. H.

Jackson, Sir H.

Shakespeare, G. H.

Cary, R. A.

James, Wing-Commander A. W.

Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Joel, D. J. B.

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

Shepperson, Sir E. W.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br.W.)

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Kimball, L.

Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

Colfox, Major W. P.

Kirkpatrick, W. M.

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

Lamb, Sir J. O.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Colman, N. C. D.

Latham, Sir P.

Smithers, Sir W.

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

Leckie, J. A.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Spens, W. P.

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.)

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Storey, S.

Craddock, Sir R. H.

Levy, T.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Craven-Eills, W.

Lewis, O.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Crooke, J. S.

Liddall, W. S.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Cross, R. H.

Lindsay, K. M.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Cruddas, Col. B.

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C.

Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

Sutcliffe, H.

Davies, C. (Montgomery)

Lumley, Capt. L. R.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

Lyons, A. M.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Dawson, Sir P.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

De Chair, S. S.

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Denman, Hon. R. D.

McCorquodale, M. S.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Denville, Alfred

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Touche, G. C.

Dodd, J. S.

McKie, J. H.

Turton, R. H.

Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

Magnay, T.

Wakefield, W. W.

Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

Maitland, A.

Walker-Smith, Sir J.

Drewe, C.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon H. D. R.

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop)

Markham, S. F.

Warrender, Sir V.

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Maxwell, S. A.

Waterhouse, Captain C.

Dugdale, Major T. L.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Wedderburn, H. J. S.

Duggan, H. J.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Wells, S. R.

Duncan, J. A. L.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Dunglass, Lord

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

Eaies, J. F.

Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Ellis, Sir G.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Emery, J. F.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Munro, P.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Nall, Sir J.

Sir James Blindell and Commander

Southby.

NOES.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Bellenger, F.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Benson, G.

Adamson, W. M.

Barnes, A. J.

Broad, F. A.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

Barr, J.

Bromfield, W.

Ammon, C. G.

Batey, J.

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

1788

1789

Cape, T.

Jones, Morgan Caerphilly)

Ritson, J.

Chater, D.

Kelly, W. T.

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Cluse, W. S.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Rowson, G.

Cocks, F. S.

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

Salter, Dr. A.

Cove, W. G.

Lathan, G.

Sexton, T. M.

Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

Lawson, J. J.

Shinwell, E.

Daggar, G.

Leach, W.

Short, A.

Dalton, H.

Lee, F.

Silkin, L.

Day, H.

Leonard, W.

Simpson, F. B.

Dobbie, W.

Leslie, J. R.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

Logan, D. G.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Ede, J. C.

Lunn, W.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Sorensen, R. W.

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

McEntee, V. La T.

Stephen, C.

Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

McGhee, H. G.

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Frankel, D.

MacLaren, A.

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Gardner, B. W.

Maclean, N.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Marklew, E.

Thorne, W.

Grenfell, D. R.

Marshall, F.

Thurtle, E.

Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

Mathers, G.

Tinker, J. J.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Messer, F.

Viant, S. P.

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Montague, F.

Walkden, A. G.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Moreing, A. C.

Walker, J.

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

Watson, W. McL.

Hardie, G. D.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wayland, Sir W. A.

Harris, Sir P. A.

Naylor, T. E.

Wilkinson, Ellen

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Oliver, G. H.

Williams, D. (Swansea, E.)

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Paling, W.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Parker, J.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Jagger, J.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Potts, J.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

John, W.

Pritt, D. N.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Richards, R. (Wrexham)

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Riley, B.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charleton.

Resolved,
"That it is expedient to extend until the end of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-seven, the period during which cattle or carcases of cattle must have been sold in order that payments in respect thereof may be made out of the Cattle Fund under section two of the Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1934, as amended by the Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) (No. 2) Act, 1935."
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

NEW MEMBER SWORN.
Philip John Noel-Baker, Esquire, for the Borough of Derby.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Petroleum (Transfer of Licences) Bill, without Amendment.
Education Bill, with Amendments.

BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL. [Lords.]
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended, to lie upon the Table.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL.
Lords Amendments to be printed. [Bill 159.]
EDUCATION BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 158.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  MALTA (LETTERS PATENT) BILL [Lords].
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]
  Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  MALTA (LETTERS PATENT) BILL [Lords].

    CLAUSE 3.—(Short title, commencement and repeal.)
    9.28 p.m.
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: I beg to move, in page 2, line 4, to leave out "to four," and to insert" "three and four."
    The object of this Amendment is to safeguard certain legal and constitutional provisions which were incorporated in the Act of 1932 with the object of ensuring that the administration of justice in
    1790
    Malta was carried out under proper safeguards. The provisions of Section 2 deal first of all with the appointment of judges of the superior court of Malta; second, with the qualification of judges; third—not an unimportant matter—the remuneration of judges, which cannot be diminished during the tenure of office of any judge; fourth, the question of retirement—judges are to retire at 65; and, last, judges cannot be dismissed from their office except for proved misbehaviour or incapacity. So that, broadly speaking, these provisions are a bulwark against judicial maladministration, and in the event of this Bill being passed in its present form there is no guarantee that any of the requirements which are to be found in Section 2 of the 1932 Act will be observed by the Governor or by his superior, the Secretary of State.
    The object of the Amendment is to ensure that the provisions of Section 2 shall continue to operate even though this Bill becomes law. It may be suggested that these matters are purely academic and of no great practical importance, but perhaps the Committee will allow me to quote from a document which contains the views of the Chamber of Advocates in Malta and which were contained in a memorandum submitted to the Secretary of State on the 23rd May this year. This is what the members of the Chamber say:

    1791
    "The Chamber feels that these provisions should be placed beyond the reach of the Secretary of State for the time being in charge of the affairs of Malta, and subunits that Section 2 of the Act of 1932 should stand. The people of Malta look up to the judiciary as to one of the main elements of order and of the stability of their laws and institutions, usages and traditions, to which they are deeply and passionately attached. Any weakening of or tampering with the structure on which every Maltese relies for the security of his person, for the defence of his honour and for the upholding of his rights, cannot but create intense disappointment and chagrin in all sections of the population."
    Those words, mutatis mutandis, might well be applied to our own country if it were ever contemplated that the judicial safeguards which exists should be tampered with or removed. I would respectfully submit to the Secretary of State that the general basis of this Bill under which the Government desire to secure control of the executive powers operating in the island through their Governor would not in any way be affected by the retention of an independent judicial system. For judges to be guaranteed a certain security of tenure, even though their judicial determination may not always be acceptable to the executive authority, except in the case of proved misbehaviour or incapacity, would, in addition to giving confidence to members of the judiciary, give confidence to the citizens of Malta in the knowledge that their disputes and grievances would be heard and determined, apart altogether from any likelihood of influence or interference on the part of the executive. That was the object in inserting Section 2 in the 1932 Act; to make it perfectly clear that this independent judiciary was to be established in Malta.
    I hope that the Minister will accept this Amendment, put forward not in any spirit of obstruction, but because some of us on this side of the Committee believe that it is necessary, especially having regard to the fact that there is to be no elected Legislature functioning in the island. It should be possible—and certainly not incompatible with the objects of the Government—to have an independent judiciary.
    9.35 p.m.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): With the object of the hon. Gentleman who moved
    1792
    the Amendment I myself, and I am sure the whole Government, are heartily in sympathy. The one thing we want is an absolutely independent and assured judiciary in Malta. The reason why it was felt necessary to insert the provisions in the Act of 1932 was to ensure that object, and it is our intention in the new Constitution to make sure that that state of affairs will continue. In fact, it is quite definitely the intention of the Government to put in the new Letters Patent, as in the old, as part of the Constitution of Malta, the same provisions to secure the independence of the judiciary as have obtained since 1932. The hon. Member may ask why we do not put it in the Statute. The whole object of this Bill is to put Malta in the same position as other Colonies and the Maltese judiciary in the same position as other Colonial judiciaries, and to make the whole Constitution once again in its entirety what it was before 1921, namely, subject to the issue of Letters Patent. I would point out that at this moment the existing Constitution, including the position of the judiciary, is governed by Letters Patent and the 1932 Act, and the object of the Bill is to restore to the Crown the unrestricted prerogative it had before 1921.
    Therefore, I can give my hon. Friend the absolute assurance that the position of the judiciary in Malta will be absolutely unchanged, that it is our intention in every way to safeguard their independence, and that so far from complaining about the judgments given by the judiciary in Malta it is the last thing we do, because in all their judicial decisions they have upheld in every way the high positions of their office. The last thing that the Secretary of State or the executive, either in Malta or elsewhere, would wish is to break in upon the long-established British tradition of non-interference with the judiciary. The whole object of the Bill is to have the whole Constitution clearly set out in a complete set of Letters Patent, and those Letters Patent would be incomplete if the position and the independence of the judiciary were not included. Therefore, I do hope that the hon. Member will not press this Amendment. I can give him the most explicit assurance that no change whatsoever is contemplated; that not only have I no ulterior motive but

    1793
    that the objects which he says he has in moving the Amendment are also my objects.
    Mr. HENDERSON: I should like to clear up one point. Do I understand that the specific assurance which the right hon. Gentleman has given covers all the heads of Section 2?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Yes—tenure, independence, remuneration, retiring age—every single thing.
    9.38 p.m.
    Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: I do not understand why the Secretary of State says that this matter must now be taken out of the hands of Parliament and put into the hands of the executive. If, as he suggests, and I am sure he agrees with me, this is a fundamental matter of right which should be observed in Malta as in every place, and Parliament did in 1932 take the view that it was a matter which should be put into an Act passed by this House, I cannot see any reason for now repealing what Parliament did in 1932. There are other matters besides the good intentions of the executive which have to be borne in mind in relation to legislation of this kind. It has often been said that it is more important that justice should appear to be done than that justice should be done, and it is equally important in a matter of this kind that it should not appear to the people of Malta that Parliament is repealing that which it thought fit and proper to enact in 1932. Where we are relying upon the good intentions of the Secretary of State and his successors in office, we are, in effect, taking off the Statute Book a provision which was put there for the protection of the people of Malta as recently as 1932. Inevitably a number of people must think that there is some reason for that removal.
    If, as the Secretary of State says, the position will be exactly as it was in the past, and that no change is going to be made, there can be no possible reason for the removal of this Section from the Statute, because he tells us that even with it on the Statute Book it is under the Letters Patent that the provisions are made. It is not a question of avoiding duplication, because that is now the practice and in future, when Letters Patent are issued, why should not this provision still remain on the Statute
    1794
    Book? It gives him no greater or less latitude than he desires. He does not want to get it off the Statute Book, but his action in taking it off the Statute Book is one which may well be misconstrued in Malta. People who have won what they regard as a right to justice by an independent judiciary are naturally nervous when they see a repeal of that Section of the Statute which has given them the right, and I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that this is a case where, even if it is going to make no difference at all to the future government of Malta, it is essential that this House should not make this gesture of withdrawing something which is valued intensely by those people.
    If all these regulations are to be continued as regards the judiciary of Malta it will be a most unfortunate thing that people should be allowed to make capital out of the fact that the House of Commons has repealed this Section, when in effect we all want it to remain in force. It is liable to misconstruction and may give people in Malta, discontented people perhaps, the opportunity of putting that misconstruction upon what we are doing in the House of Commons. For that reason I beg the right hon. Gentleman to allow this Section to remain. It will not embarrass him or anyone else if his intentions are those, as I am sure they are, which he has expressed to the Committee, but it may make a great deal of difference to the feelings of the people in Malta, especially now that, unfortunately, they are to have their Constitution taken away. Let them at least realise that the House of Commons is going to insist upon the retention of this independent judiciary. If that is insisted upon by the House of Commons, they will at least feel that this House had been active in guarding their interests, and has not merely been prepared to hand them over to the executive to do as it likes. I beg the right hon. Gentleman, for that reason, to say that this Section can remain on the Statute Book as a permanent guarantee to the people of Malta.
    9.45 p.m.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I ought to say, in reply to the hon. and learned Gentleman, that I think he has got the wrong story. In 1921, the Constitution of Malta, a dyarchic Constitution, was established. As I explained on the Second

    1795
    Reading, when the Crown has parted with its prerogative to a local elected body, it loses power to amend that position except by Act of Parliament. Therefore when it became necessary, not so such to give the people of Malta but to give the judges in Malta, security of tenure and of income, and a clear statement that that was a reserved subject, it was put into the Bill, passed by Parliament, to amend the Letters Patent.
    The object of the present Bill is to do away with the Constitution which gave rise to that doubt. We therefore take the view very strongly that to leave one Clause of an amending Bill of the Letters Patent, that are now to disappear entirely, upon the Imperial Statute Book is, quite frankly, ridiculous, and that it is essential and important, if the Crown is to resume the position that it occupied in regard to the Constitution, the judiciary and every other power, that the people of Malta should have, in their new Constitution, and their new Letters Patent, a clear statement that the judiciary is independent and is assured. I should regret that the new Constitution of Malta should not have in it a Clause, in the Letters Patent, assuring the position of the judiciary, and that it should be left as a last relic of the old story of constitutional change, and subject to the necessity, when any iota is to be altered, of passing a special Bill by both Houses of Parliament. I think that would be quite wrong, when the whole object is to place the judiciary of Malta in the same position as the judiciary of the Straits Settlements, Nigeria, Kenya and any other British Colony. That is the whole object of the Clause, and I must urge the House to resist the Amendment, in spite of what the hon. and learned Member has said.
    9.48 p.m.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: I listened to the right hon. Gentleman, ready to be convinced. I never questioned the sincerity of what the hon. Gentleman said, but I am rather afraid that, in his endeavour to be symmetrical, he is attempting to draw out of an Act of Parliament something that is to continue. What we want is greater security and greater assurance for the people of Malta to have this right secured in an Act of Parliament as well as in the Letters Patent.
    1796
    If it is in a Bill, it has more strength. As this matter has been raised and as the parties concerned, learned advocates in the island, have desired this right to remain in the Act of Parliament, it seems a pity that the right hon. Gentleman does not make this small concession. I have a shrewd suspicion that this is a draftsman's job. The draftsman brings in a Bill and in order to make it symmetrical includes everything. It would be far simpler to allow this right to have statutory force, rather than to be part of a new Letters Patent. I should have thought it would be much better than to drop these words.
    9.50 p.m.
    Mr. PRITT: I too would like to appeal to the Government to leave this Section in the Act. Symmetry is very dangerous when you begin to sacrifice anything to it. The whole of our legislation consists in little bits of Sections of Acts left lying about for practical convenience and for their value. I think, in the Government of India Act, something was left in the Preamble. We can all accept without reservation what the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State says, but if at some time we had another Secretary of State, whether of the same party or of another party, who was minded to deprive the people of Malta of this independence, it would be very serious. As the right hon. Gentleman says, it may be inconvenient to come back to this House if an iota of something has to be altered, but it is a matter of very serious practical comfort for the judges and the people of Malta to be told that iotas cannot be altered by Secretaries of State because they have been secured in an Act of Parliament.
    There is one further consideration. Once this is put upon the Statute Book as a Statute, no matter what the reasons and however convincing the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman of those reasons, the general public will know only that the words were put into an Act of Parliament and were taken out again. I have a recollection of a somewhat amusing story from the Foreign Office, of a British Ambassador in a foreign country who was entitled to expect letters addressed to him to be signed: "Your most humble and obedient Servant," or something of that

    1797
    sort. When similar letters were sent to him by a Minister, he discovered that the writer was: "Your most humble and obedient Servant," with the word "humble" crossed out, and he was most indignant. If the wording had been "Your most obedient Servant," and the word "humble" had not appeared at all, there would have been no trouble. Comparing small things with great, if it had never become necessary to say to the people of Malta, "The Imperial Parliament guarantees this," it would perhaps not matter very much, but once you have said to the people, "The Imperial Parliament guarantees this," it becomes very serious if, for the sake of symmetry, you say: "We do not mean that any longer, even if we did."
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: May I remind the hon. and learned Gentleman once more of the history? By Letters Patent a Constitution of a dyarchic character was conferred upon Malta in 1921. Thereby, matters were placed in the control of the Maltese local parliament. In 1932, in order not to give the people of Malta more power over the judiciary, but to take it away, and in order to give security to the judges, these matters were transferred to the reserved side of the dyarchy and placed under the control of the Government. When Parliament withdraws the original Letters Patent, that requires an Act of Parliament. Before 1921, there was an independent judiciary in Malta; after 1921 there was an independent judiciary; now there is an independent judiciary in Malta, and there will be. I want to make it quite clear. It is not the people of Malta who are concerned; this is a question of the judges. I will call the hon. and learned Member's attention to one proviso in the Statute. It may be desirable to alter, without passing a Bill through all its stages in both Houses, the proviso of a Section which says that the annual remuneration of all the judges shall not exceed in the aggregate the amount required by the principal Letters Patent, that is to say, of 1921.
    I cannot tell the Committee whether it may not be necessary in future to have an additional judge in Malta. It may be. If it is, unless we have freedom under the Letters Patent to alter this provision in the Statute, the only way in which that could be done would be by docking
    1798
    all the existing judges of part of their salary, because it is laid down in the Statute that the aggregate amount of the remuneration of the judges in Malta shall not exceed a particular sum, which was fixed in 1921. I say that it would be ridiculous to maintain on the Statute Book of this country a limitation of that kind, which does not obtain in any other colony. Our intention, both vis-a-vis the judges themselves and vis-a-vis the people of Malta, is to ensure in the future, as in the past, the same British tradition of the complete independence of the judiciary.
    Mr. PRITT: I should like to point out, by way of explanation, that, although the right hon. Gentleman has reminded me of the position of the people, I did not say "the people"; I said, "the people and the judges." I meant thereby the people in their confidence in the judges, and not the people in their desire to control the judges.
    9.57 p.m.
    Mr. FURNESS: I am reminded of the famous advice given by Sir Francis Bacon to James I, that the judges should be lions, but lions under the Throne. I think that there is a little constitutional point here. There must be a difference between the position of judges who are assured of independence by Parliament and the position of judges who are assured of independence under Letters Patent, and I would press the point, though I know that it is not, perhaps, popular for me to do so from this side, that it should be borne in mind that, when people have had something secured to them in an Act of Parliament, they resent its being taken away. Although I know nothing of Malta, I feel that the people of Malta, with their history and traditions, might consider that they were entitled to a little more constitutional assurance in regard to these important matters than the people of the Straits Settlements or the other Colonies which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned.
    Another point, which I think the right hon. Gentleman raised himself, and which, perhaps, is rather important, is in regard to the judicial salaries. A few years ago in this country a very important point indeed was raised with regard to judicial salaries. I am sure that no one connected with the courts

    1799
    resented that judicial salaries should be reduced in the financial difficulties then prevailing, but it was very much resented that they should have been reduced by unilateral executive action. When the right hon. Gentleman says that it might later on be necessary to reconsider the arrangement of salaries—although, to be quite fair, he said in an upward direction—I think it is important that, if the salaries of holders of judicial office are to be fixed, they should be fixed by Act of Parliament, and not at the will of the Executive.
    9.59 p.m.
    Mr. EDE: Surely it must be an indication of how hard pressed the Minister is to find an excuse for doing as he is doing, that the only answer he can put forward to my two hon. and learned Friends is that, if we persevere and succeed in our Amendment, it may mean in the future less employment for members of their profession. That exposed a poverty of argument which I should have thought the right hon. Gentleman would have been able to conceal. After what the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Furness) has said, it must be clear that a very serious point is involved here. At the moment, the independence and the salaries of the judges in Malta are guaranteed by an
    Act of Parliament. As I understand it, if the Act is repealed and new Letters Patent are issued, anything that is in those Letters Patent can be amended without again coming to the House of Commons. The right hon. Gentleman gives his personal assurance that, as long as he is Secretary of State, the judiciary will be in no worse a position than they are in to-day, but fortunately his Government will not be there very long. He himself is so popular a Member of the House that we might even wish that he might be permanently in his present position, no matter what was the colour of the Government, but he has not been there very long this time. When his friends go, he will go with them, and perhaps he may not feel as confident as we should be that right would be done after he had gone. If this country should ever be cursed by a future Tory Government, we do not know who the right hon. Gentleman's successor would be, and we might have very grave misgivings then. I hope the Minister will be able, even at this late stage, to accept the Amendment.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 200; Noes, 119.

    Division No. 286.]

    AYES.

    [10.0 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

    Cary, R. A.

    Ellis, Sir G.

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

    Emery, J. F.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

    Emmott, C. E. G. C.

    Albery, Sir I. J.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br.W.)

    Everard, W. L.

    Anderson Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Fildes, Sir H.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Colfox, Major W. P.

    Fremantle, Sir F. E.

    Apsley, Lord

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Ganzoni, Sir J.

    Aske, Sir R. W.

    Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

    Assheton, R.

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Gluckstein, L. H.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Cooper, Rt.Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.)

    Goldie, N. B.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Goodman, Col. A. W.

    Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

    Craddock, Sir R. H.

    Gower, Sir R. V.

    Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

    Crooke, J. S.

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

    Cross, R. H.

    Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Cruddas, Col. B.

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

    Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

    Dawson, Sir P.

    Guinness, T. L. E. B.

    Blair, Sir R.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Gunston, Capt. D. W.

    Blindell, Sir J.

    Denville, Alfred

    Hannah, I. C.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Dodd, J. S.

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

    Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

    Heligers, Captain F. F. A.

    Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

    Drewe, C.

    Hepworth, J.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop)

    Holmes, J. S.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Dugdale, Major T. L.

    Hopkinson, A.

    Bull, B. B.

    Duggan, H. J.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

    Burghley, Lord

    Duncan, J. A. L.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Butler, R. A.

    Dunglass, Lord

    Hunter, T.

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Eckersley, P. T.

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Jackson, Sir H.

    James, Wing-Commander A. W.

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Joel, D. J. B.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

    Moreing, A. C.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

    Keeling, E. H.

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A.J.

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    Kimball, L.

    Munro, P.

    Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

    Kirkpatrick, W. M.

    Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

    Spens, W. P.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

    Storey, S.

    Latham, Sir P.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.

    Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

    Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

    Palmer, G. E. H.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Leckie, J. A.

    Patrick, C. M.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Peake, O.

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Penny, Sir G.

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Levy, T.

    Petherick, M.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Lewis, O.

    Pilkington, R.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

    Liddall, W. S.

    Plugge, L. F.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Titchfieid, Marquess of

    Lloyd, G. W.

    Raikes, H. V. A. M.

    Touche, G. C

    Lumley, Capt. L. R.

    Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

    Turton, R. H.

    Lyons, A. M.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Ramsden, Sir E.

    Walker-Smith, Sir J.

    MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

    Rankin, R.

    Warrender, Sir V.

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Wedderburn, H. J. S.

    McKie, J. H.

    Remer, J. R.

    Wells, S. R.

    Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

    Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

    Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

    Magnay, T.

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchih)

    Maitland, A.

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Salmon, Sir I.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

    Womersley, Sir W. J.

    Markham, S. F.

    Sanderson, Sir F. B.

    Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

    Scott, Lord William

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Maxwell, S. A.

    Shakespeare, G. H.

    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

    Ward and Commander Southby.

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

    Groves, T. E.

    Potts, J.

    Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Price, M. P.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Pritt, D. N.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Hardie, G. D.

    Richards, R. (Wrexham)

    Adamson, W. M

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Riley, B.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Ritson, J.

    Ammon, C. G.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Jagger, J.

    Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

    Banfield, J. W.

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Rowson, G.

    Barnes, A. J.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Seely, Sir H. M.

    Barr, J.

    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

    Sexton, T. M.

    Batey, J.

    Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Shinwell, E.

    Bellenger, F.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Short, A.

    Benson, G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Silkin, L.

    Bevan, A.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

    Simpson, F. B.

    Broad, F. A.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Bromfield, W.

    Lathan, G.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

    Lawson, J. J.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Cape, T.

    Lee, F.

    Stephen, C.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Leonard, W.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Cocks, F. S.

    Leslie, J. R.

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

    Logan, D. G.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Daggar, G.

    Lunn, W.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Dalton, H.

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Day, H.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Dobbie, W.

    Mac Laren, A.

    Walker, J.

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    Maclean, N.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Ede, J. C.

    Mander, G. le M.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    Marklew, E.

    Whiteley, W.

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    Marshall, F.

    Wilkinson, Ellen

    Evans, D.O. (Cardigan)

    Mathers, G.

    Williams, D. (Swansea, E.)

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Messer, F.

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Frankel, D.

    Morrison, Rt. Hn. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

    Williams, T. (Don Valley)

    Gardner, B. W.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Noel-Baker, P. J.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    Paling, W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Parker, J.

    Mr. Charleton and Mr. John.

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    10.10 p.m.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 2, line 5, at the end, to add:
    1802
    "This Act shall not operate to withdraw any litigation as to which appearance has already been entered by both sides before the judicial committee of His Majesty's

    1803
    Privy Council and no delay or impediment caused by the passing of this Act shall cause costs to be ruled againt either party."
    This Amendment is to deal with those ordinances that were passed by the Governor subsequent to the suspension of the Constitution. In at least one case the ordinance was opposed by interested persons and submitted to the Maltese courts. Thenceforward it proceeded to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. The case is still sub judice and, unless my Amendment is accepted, the Bill not only validates any ordinance introduced by the Government but also validates the case that is sub judice before the Privy Council at present. I am not an expert in legal niceties, but I can very well imagine that, if this Government grants to any one of our Colonies a Constitution, and for some reason, religious or otherwise, finds it necessary to suspend the Contitution and the Governor promulgates ordinance after ordinance, right or wrong, any one of those ordinances may be contested in the courts and transmitted to the Privy Council, and then His Majesty's Government introduces a Bill to suspend the Constitution and to validate all those ordinances, that will at least be contrary to the general practice and would make things extremely difficult throughout our Colonial Empire.
    I understand that the Canadian Government at the moment is contemplating submitting several pieces of legislation, or ordinances, passed by its predecessor, to the Privy Council to contest their validity. If it is fair to validate ordinances and to cancel out cases which are sub judice for the Privy Council in Malta, why not the same process with regard to Canada? That, of course would be ludicrous. Just as it would be ludicrous in the case of Canada, so does it seem to me to be ludicrous in the case of Malta. In any case retrospective legislation of this kind validating the action of the Government and completely disposing of the normal legal procedure is contrary to the best practice of this country with regard to the government of our Colonies. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment and allow the case before the Privy Council to proceed in the ordinary course, and not dispose of the case that is sub
    1804
    judice in this extraordinary fashion, for it would be bound to reflect itself in anxiety in every other part of our Colonial possessions. I do not think, first, that Malta deserves it, and secondly that the Colonies as a whole deserve to be placed in this position. For these reasons, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will see the wisdom of accepting the Amendment and, at all events, allowing the case that is now sub judice to pass through the normal channels and the right or wrong of that particular ordinance to be contested in the ordinary manner.
    10.16 p.m.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: In general principles I agree with tae hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), who moved the Amendment, that it is undesirable, when cases have got so far, to interfere with them, unless one can show good cause why one should. In endeavouring to convince the Committee that in this particular case I have reasonable ground for adopting the line which I would like the Committee to adopt, perhaps I had better explain that the effect of the proposed Amendment would be to validate all the ordinances passed by the Governor since the Constitution has been suspended, with the single exception of the case which Lord Strickland has brought against the ordinance passed by the Governor in 1934, which he is carrying through the courts. Let me make it perfectly clear that I have been advised by all my advisers, and I am completely convinced, that, under existing Letters Patent during the suspensory period, the Governor, with the assent of the Secretary of State, has been fully entitled to act and that these ordinances are valid. That is the view which has been upheld by the Maltese courts, both the Court of first instance and the Court of Appeal in every single case; but it is clear that, if the validating Clause had not been inserted in this Bill, and if in the present case Lord Strickland were to secure a reversion of the decision of the Court of Appeal, the Government would immediately have to come to Parliament and pass a special Bill to validate that ordinance. We had much better do it in this Bill rather than trouble the House of Commons with a wholly new Bill inserting an order to validate that particular ordinance.

    1805
    Parliament has always been very chary of interfering in matters of this kind, where it can be shown that an appellant has some personal right or personal interest in the matter. I want to make it perfectly clear that that does not and cannot arise in this case. The ordinance has not been aimed at, nor does it affect, Lord Strickland individually in his personal interest rights, any more than it affects any other Maltese constituent. I must give particulars of the case in order to justify our proposal. I do so all the more readily because I have recently come from the Office of Works. This particular advertisement ordinance is probably one of the first ordinances that has ever been passed by any governor or Government in Malta. This is an ordinance the validity of which Lord Strickland is impugning as being outside the power of the Governor.
    The CHAIRMAN (Sir Dennis Herbert): The right hon. Gentleman is now discussing a matter which is sub judice. He cannot go into the merits of that case.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: It is very difficult, then, to explain why one wishes to validate a particular ordinance when that ordinance is being questioned. I think, however, I can obey your Ruling without making any direct reference to this particular case. Perhaps I can state exactly what is the position that exists to-day. On the famous walls of Valetta there are extremely ugly hoardings advertising particular individual newspapers. In this country we have for some time past empowered local authorities to abate such nuisances, which disfigure prominent public buildings. As First Commissioner of Works I had power, for instance, to prohibit sky-lights and the like in Parliament Square. Therefore, it is desirable, in the interests of Malta and of everybody, that the very fine views of Malta and its famous monuments and public buildings should not be disfigured in this manner.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: On a point of Order. Is not the right hon. Gentleman now discussing the case? He uses the words "disfigured in this manner." That is a direct reference to the case.
    The CHAIRMAN: I was following the right hon. Gentleman very carefully and he was certainly very near the line. It is common knowledge that certain legal
    1806
    proceedings are going on, but there must be no direct reference to them, nor anything said in the nature of a statement, pro or con, which might be held to prejudice the issues involved in that litigation.
    Sir JOSEPH NALL: Is it not the whole object of the Bill to frustrate the judicial proceedings to which you have referred?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: It is the object of this Clause.
    The CHAIRMAN: I have no knowledge of what may be the object of anybody in regard to this Bill. I have only before me the text of the Bill, and it makes no reference to any particular pending legal proceedings.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I think I have said quite enough on the individual case which is raised by the Amendment moved by the hon. Member opposite. He seeks to exempt from the general validation one of the Ordinances which has been passed by the Governor. I will not pursue that matter any more, except to refer more specifically to the last few words of the Amendment, because I am asking the House to make no exception to the validation of the Ordinances which have been passed.
    I think it is only fair that there should be a statement regarding the position which will arise in connection with the court case. The appellant has been put to certain costs in bringing this case from Malta to this country, and His Majesty's Government have no desire to involve him in any loss of this character. They are quite prepared to consider most sympathetically the claim which in due course the appellant may put forward in respect of these expenses. I think that should be done, and if I am invited by the Amendment to make an exception in the validation of the Ordinances, I maintain that we should not exempt, as the Amendment seeks to exempt, Ordinance No. 11 dealing with public advertisements in Malta from the validation, which, I think, the whole Committee wishes to accord to the various other acts of the Governor, which have been absolutely essential during the period of the suspension of the Malta Constitution.
    Sir J. NALL: As I understand the matter, the Ordinances which have been

    1807
    made were supposed to be related to matters of defence. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to matters of local amenities and to domestic matters, such as might be the concern of local authorities here. But the Ordinances which are the cause of a certain action are supposed to be matters of defence and, therefore, it seems to me that the Bill is altogether irregular.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I want to make it perfectly clear that since the Constitution has been suspended the only person who has had power to make laws in regard to local matters as well as defence has been the Governor. This is a matter of purely local amenities, and it is the Ordinance among a large number which has been selected for question.
    10.28 p.m.
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: The speech of the right hon. Gentleman is extremely unsatisfactory from the constitutional point of view. As far as I know there is no precedent for a Government coming to this House when a case has reached its appellate stage and introducing legislation which would have the effect of neutralising any decision which may be arrived at by the Court of Appeal, and then calmly telling the House that it will be quite all right, because they will indemnify the litigant in respect of his costs in the event of the Court of Appeal finding in his favour. That is an important constitutional point, and I hope the Committee will think twice before they allow the Government to get away with it. The Minister has said that it would be easy to allow this case to be carried through its various stages, to allow the Privy Council to find in favour of the litigant, which would compel the Government to come to the House and introduce a Bill of indemnity. That is the proper course which should be taken in the event of the Government desiring to neutralise any judgment of the Privy Council; but to come to the House prior to the Privy Council having arrived at its determination is absolutely without precedent, and I hope the Committee will not allow the Government to neutralise the decision of the Privy Council, whatever it may be, in this way. The object of this Amendment is merely to protect the rights of
    1808
    the litigant in the last stage of the litigation when the case is actually before the final Court of Appeal, that is to say, the Privy Council. It is no consolation to the litigant to know that, having expended time and money in seeking to ensure his rights, the Government should be allowed to take this course. I hope the Committee will accept this Amendment.
    10.31 p.m.
    Mr. SPENS: The hon. Gentleman opposite has told us what is the object of the Amendment, but he has not told us how the Amendment will carry out that object. The Committee will see that the Amendment begins by saying:
    "This Act shall not operate to withdraw any litigation …"
    The Act does not say anything about withdrawing litigation; it is entirely a question for the litigant as to whether or not he withdraws it. The Amendment has no effect on existing litigation unless the litigant thinks fit to withdraw it. Moreover, the last words of the Amendment are:
    "and no delay or impediment caused by the passing of this Act shall cause costs to be ruled against either party."
    No delay or impediment is caused by the passing of this Act unless either of the parties chooses to make a delay or impediment. I respectfully submit to the Committee that this Amendment would not have the effect which hon. Members opposite think it would have.
    10.33 p.m.
    The CHAIRMAN: From the discussion which has taken place so far, it would appear that this Amendment is out of Order. Either it is without effect or it is contrary to Clause 2, which has already been passed.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Further to that point of Order, the Minister informed the Committee that 11 ordinances had been passed by the Government. The Amendment is merely an exception to Clause 2, and deals exclusively with that case, or those cases, actually before the Privy Council. The Amendment was not put down to Clause 3 without a good deal of consideration, and with full knowledge that it is intended to apply as an exception to Clause 2, such exception being only for that case, or those cases, actually before the Privy Council.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member rather confirms my view. He says that this is a matter of adding a proviso to Clause 2, which has alrealy been dealt with and passed. In the circumstances, I have no option but to rule the Amendment out of order. As regards the next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones)—in page 2, line 5, at the end, to add:
    "This repeal shall not affect the continuation of any established function or right of the Malta Trades Union Council other than the function of electing two members as senators."
    I am afraid I hold very much the same view, unless the hon. Member can show me that I should take another view.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I do not mind admitting that I rather anticipated that you would take that view. Perhaps you will forgive me if I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question with a view to making the position clear.
    The CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. Member wish to ask a question on the point of Order which has been raised, or is it one that could be better discussed on the Question, "That the Clause stand part"?
    10.35 p.m.
    Mr. J0NES: If you would allow me to put it on your Ruling, then I would know whether to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, if you do not rule it out of order. I appreciate that under the decision we have already taken we have withdrawn from the Malta Trade Union Council the function of electing two members to the senate and I do not wish to argue that point now. But can I have an undertaking or assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that there is nothing to prevent the Trade Union Council from continuing to function in other respects?
    The CHAIRMAN: That is a matter which must be dealt with on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: May I now have an answer to my question?
    10.36 p.m.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: There is no ground for the apprehension that anything in this Clause affects the Trade Union Council or trade unions in Malta in any way other than that it deprives them of representation on a Senate which has ceased to exist. They are not affected in any other way. Maltese trade union rights are governed by a local ordinance passed by the Maltese Parliament in 1929 very soon after the Government of which the hon. Gentleman was a Member came into office here, and that is quite unaffected by this Clause or anything in the Bill.
    10.37 p.m.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that explanation, may I remind him that he said that this Trade Union Council had been specifically created in 1921 for the purpose of electing members to the Senate. I understood him to say that it was an ad hoc body. We are now withdrawing the function for which the Council was created. That is to say that, as far as the law is concerned, there is no Trade Union Council in being from now onwards. Do I understand that nothwithstanding that fact there will be no impediment in the way of the trade unions creating a Trade Union Council to function for any other purposes for which they may wish such a body to function?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I can give that assurance.
    10.38 p.m.
    Mr. KELLY: The Trade Union Council was set up not only for the purpose of appointing senators but for other purposes connected with the general life and working conditions on the island. Am I to understand that that council is still to be considered, in its registration aspect, as in the same position that it was previously. I am leaving out of account the appointment of the senators. Personally, I am not at ail sorry that the two members are no longer senators and perhaps it would have been better if they never had been senators, but that is not a matter with which we are dealing at the moment. I want to be assured that the council are not going to have their powers restricted or have opportunities denied to them of playing their part as regards the general life and well-being of the people of the island.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE indicated assent.
    Bill reported, without Amendment.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    10.43 p.m.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: Before we take leave of this Bill, I think it right to make a few observations upon its general character. As I said last week, when this subject was under discussion, this matter is not a matter of recent interest to us. We have been discussing the question of the constitution of Malta on other occasions during the lifetime of the previous Parliament, and I would recall to the right hon. Gentleman that when his predecessor, now Lord Swinton, commended his action to the House in 1932, he based his action upon two main considerations. One was that there was a controversy, as indeed was the case, between him and the Maltese Parliament in relation to the question of the English language. Secondly, he alleged that the financial situation in Malta was such as to demand the action which he then took. Curiously enough, we have heard nothing at all on this occasion about the language difficulty, which seems to have been completely forgotten, and therefore that is not one of the grounds on this occasion for this action. We have heard something, it is true, of the financial difficulty, but I ventured to say to the right hon Gentleman on the last occasion that it was not true to say that when the Maltese Government actually went out of office there was anything like a financial deficit In point of fact, there was a substantial surplus, so that really the second ground which was adduced in 1932 no longer applies.
    There emerged in the course of the discussion last week a third and newer ground, and that was the problem of the defence of Malta as it had presented itself to us in the course of the recent difficulties in the Mediterranean. As a matter of fact, the right hon. Gentleman did not refer to that subject in his opening statement. It was dragged out of him by other people in the course of their observations. I do not express a personal opinion on that matter one way or the other. It may very well be—and I accept it from the right hon. Gentle-
    1812
    man if he says so—that there are certain strategic difficulties which have arisen as a consequence of the situation in the Mediterranean in the last few months, but those difficulties do not justify the action that the right hon. Gentleman has taken to-night. Whatever strategic difficulties present themselves in relation to Malta, they are difficulties over which the Maltese Legislature, even if they had the whole of the powers they possessed in 1921, would have little to do, because the Maltese Legislature of 1921 had no power over defence. It was a wholly reserved subject. All the power they had was to deal with purely local and internal problems.
    I cannot understand what the haste can be for withdrawing from the Maltese people so completely as is now done all power over their interral administration, as my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) was able to show on the Second Reading of the Bill. The Maltese people can show that while they possessed the powers of self-government they were able to register a substantial advance in social legislation. Therefore, it seems to me unjust to withdraw so completely all the powers which they possessed in 1921. To-night we have been told by the right hon. Gentleman in the most specific and emphatic terms the nature of the government which is to be offered to these people. He spoke of having the power to go back to a government comparable to what is possessed in Kenya, Nigeria and other places.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I mentioned neither Kenya nor Nigeria. The two I mentioned were Straits Settlements and Ceylon.
    Mr. JONES: We will not quarrel about that, but I could have sworn I heard the right hon. Gentleman mention Kenya. Any way, they are going back, not to the government they possessed in 1921, but to something comparable to Crown Colony government. People who have enjoyed the powers that Malta enjoyed in 1921 must inevitably resent being pushed back into some status lower than that of 1921. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that in commending a Bill of this sort to the House he ought to have given far more powerful and overwhelming arguments than he has given. He has given no guarantee at all as to the future of the island from the standpoint of the government.

    1813
    Section 2 is one which, had our Amendmen been deemed in order, might have caused us a long discussion to-night. I will not discuss it now, but I will say this, without reference to the case that is before the Privy Council, that it is undesirable that this kind of retrospective legislation should be presented to the House. One of the great privileges and rights on which the ordinary citizen of the old Roman Republic used to pride himself was that he was a citizen of Rome—civis Romanus sum. It is right that these people, if they find themselves in conflict with the administration, should have reserved to them the power of making an appeal to the courts in their own country. That appeal has been made in this case, and half-way between success and failure the Government intervene, and intercept them in their journey towards the vindication of their rights by introducing a Clause such as this. It is an evil precedent for the Government to initiate. We dislike these tendencies, which have made themselves only too frequently apparent in the last three or four years on the part of the Government now in office, to step in here and there in relation to this or that portion of the Commonwealth and to withdraw rights or privileges which have long been enjoyed. It is a bad procedure to embark on, and for that reason we will challenge the Motion for the Third Reading.
    10.53 p.m.
    Commander BOWER: The people of Malta will be gravely disappointed with this Bill. I cannot agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken, because I think that the 1921 Constitution, complicated diarchy as it was, was bound to prove unworkable. I am doubtful also whether the Maltese people have yet reached a state of political development permitting of their having full responsible government. But they should have representative government, and I had hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would have been able to give us some more definite promise than he has done. There has been a see-saw between Crown Colony and some form of representative government going on for 120 years, and that merely serves to prove that this experiment of giving responsible government was bound to fail. But the Maltese people are rapidly developing, education is going ahead, there is a
    1814
    vernacular Press, the language question we hope is practically settled, and in a short time they should be made to feel that responsible government is again in sight, and that for the present they should be told that they are to get representative government at once, or as soon as may be. After all, it is 2½ years since the Constitution was suspended, and in the interval the Colonial Office must have had in their minds replacing this strict Crown Colony government by something else, and I think the Maltese people will be grievously disappointed that they have not been given something better than the airy hopes held out to them by the right hon. Gentleman.
    As regards retrospective legislation, I feel that we may be setting up a very grave precedent; at any rate that this case will have repercussions in other parts of the Empire. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) referred to the fact that in Canada eight ordinances have been challenged in the courts of first instance and the courts of appeal, and I think the Prime Minister is now going to carry them to the Privy Council of this country. I imagine that Canada is in a very different position from Malta, particularly since the passing of the Statute of Westminster, but there are other Colonies where similar cases may arise, and I think it is very regrettable that Parliament should adopt this high-handed attitude towards the Privy Council. On Second Reading I asked whether one of the Law Officers of the Crown could give us a little elucidation on this matter. Not one of them is present on the Treasury Bench this evening. I think one ought to have been here, and if a certain Amendment had not been ruled out of order I should have raised the matter then. In this case we are establishing what may be a dangerous precedent. It may turn out to be one of those cases which, in future, will be quoted in the text-books in not very flattering terms.
    In conclusion, I shall not envy the right hon. Gentleman when he does bring forward his proposals for the government of the Island of Malta, but I hope due regard will be had to giving the Maltese real control, so far as possible, over their own affairs, not only because they would like it, but because it is going to be a very difficult matter to control it

    1815
    from here. In that small island, only about 17 miles Jong and 12 miles wide, there are 250,000 people, the great majority living in a state of poverty such as is absolutely unknown in this country. They are multiplying rapidly and with emigration largely stopped they are going to be faced with the most appalling problems. I am bound to say that some of my Maltese friends have shown rather a lack of responsibility in not appreciating that their principal problems are economic. They have spent their time for the last 14 years, and for many years before, fighting about the language question and things of that sort, which do not affect the lives of the people one little bit. It is the lives of their own people they have to think of, and I hope that when they get their responsible government or their representative government they will settle down to looking after their own people and finding out means of providing a living for them.
    10.59 p.m.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: There are two matters on which I should like to make some remarks. One of the most extraordinary things about this discussion has been the complete lack of its excuse on the part of the Government for this Measure to deprive the Maltese of any form of representative or responsible government. It is quite clear that this is forced upon Malta as a result of the position of British Imperialism in the Mediterranean. "Evil communications corrupt good manners." Malta is too close to Italy, and this is the application of some of the principles of Signor Mussolini to the Government of a British dependency. We have not had any other excuse put forward for this step, which is an extremely serious step for the people of Malta. They are being victimised in order that we may have a more effective naval base in the Mediterranean. That, we believe, is not a good reason or a good cause for taking away self-government from any people who have once enjoyed it.
    The second point I wanted to say a word about was Clause 2, which validates a number of ordinances which may or may not be invalid. One must assume that the Government have been advised that there is a risk of those ordinances being declared invalid, otherwise they would
    1816
    not have included Clause 2 in the Bill. That raises a very serious question as to whether, when the Government take urgent Measures in one or other part of the Empire, by which a Constitution is suspended, they ought not to come to this House at the time when they suspend the Constitution in order, before the ordinances are passed, that this House might give them the necessary validation. In this case that was not done. For two and a-half years the Government continued to legislate for Malta in a manner which, it is now discovered, might or might not be valid. The Government, therefore, seek to bring in retrospective legislation to make those ordinances valid, whatever legal power the Governor had to pass them at the time when they were enacted. If that method is to be pursued, every kind of illegality may be committed in every part of the Empire. There is no security, if retrospective legislation of this kind is to become the habit or the custom of this House, in any part of the Empire, that the Constitution which has been laid down with the approval of this House will be valid in governing the people of that area.
    Therefore, when we are asked, as we are to-night, to pass a Bill of this kind, it is to do something which, in my submission, we should consider with the very greatest care before embarking upon such legislation. The particular case which has been mentioned of one such Ordinance being challenged in the courts, illustrates the danger of such legislation. The right hon. Gentleman stated, upon the Amendment which was ruled out of order, that this House had always been very jealous of personal rights and was unwilling, by retrospective legislation, to upset such personal rights. Does he suggest that this House is less jealous of public rights than of personal rights? I presume that he does not suggest that there is no difference between a case of personal rights vindicated in the courts, and of public rights vindicated in the courts. The argument would be far stronger where some citizen, whoever he may be, comes forward to vindicate a public right, than where a citizen comes forward merely to vindicate some personal right of his own. If that be so, where, as at present, a public right is being vindicated as regards certain events that have occurred during this interregnum in Malta, it is of the very essence

    1817
    of good government that the opportunity of vindication of justice should be given and not withheld, whatever the consequences may be.
    The right hon. Gentleman excuses himself because, he says, it would be awkward if another Bill had to be passed in order to validate this particular Ordinance. But surely that is a very small matter compared with the vindication of justice. It is not to be weighed in the same balance; and, incidentally, it is not the fact, because, under the new Constitution, the Governor can pass a new Ordinance of precisely the same kind if it is found that the old one is illegal, and he will, therefore, not be embarrassed in any way as regard cleaning the walls of Valetta. But his past illegal act will have to be paid for, and that is the right and proper thing, upon which the House ought to insist in a case of this sort, rather than saying, "Although you can put it right by a new Ordinance if you like, we are nevertheless going to say that we are going to put our imprimatur upon the injustice which you have performed in these two and a-half years." There can be no conceivable excuse as regards good government for getting rid of the present litigation.
    As for the terms which the right hon. Gentleman has offered the litigants, they are really hardly worthy of even this Government. The right hon. Gentleman does not seem to realise that, when there is an appeal pending before a court, if you want to settle with your adversary so as to be in the position of winning the appeal, you invariably have to pay the whole of his costs from the beginning of the litigation, and not merely the extra costs to which he has been put by going to the court of appeal. If you
    are going by some device to get yourself into the right then you have to be prepared to pay the person who has challenged the right all the costs that he has incurred in challenging that right. Clearly, if the Government are going to pass such a Bill as this, the only just thing that they could possibly do would be to say to the ligitant, "You have been put to expense in trying to uphold a public right in Malta. We are now going to say that it is not a public right; in other words, we are going to validate the ordinance; and, therefore, we will indemnify you against all the expense to which you have been put in trying to uphold that public right." That is the barest justice in such a case as this.
    But I am not suggesting to the right hon. Gentleman that he should adopt that course. What I am suggesting is that it is vital to the good government of our Colonial Empire—which I do not want to perpetuate, but which, as long as it is there, should be governed well—that retrospective legislation as regards illegal acts by Governors should not be passed by this House of Commons, and especially in a case where, on the right hon. Gentleman's own showing, it is absolutely unnecessary from the point of view of doing whatever he wants to do with advertisements in Malta, because that can be cured by a new Ordinance. It is too late to consider the matter now, but I suggest that, if the House passes the Bill in this form, it will regret laying down a precedent which may prove very disastrous in other cases in future.
    Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    The House divided: Ayes, 210; Noes, 118.

    Division No. 287.]

    AYES.

    [11.10 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

    Blair, Sir R.

    Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

    Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

    Blindell, Sir J.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Agnew, Lieut. Comdr. P. G.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Albery, Sir I. J.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Colfox, Major W. P.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

    Bower, Comdr. R. T.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff(W'st'r S.G'gs)

    Apsley, Lord

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Aske, Sir R. W

    Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

    Craddock, Sir R. H.

    Assheton, R.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Bull, B. B.

    Craven-Ellis, W.

    Baldwin-Webb, Col, J.

    Bullock, Capt. M.

    Crooke, J. S.

    Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

    Burghley, Lord

    Cross, R. H.

    Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

    Butler, R. A.

    Cruddas, Col. B.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C.

    Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Davies, C. (Montgomery)

    Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

    Cary, R. A.

    Dawson, Sir P.

    Bernays, R. H.

    Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Denville, Alfred

    Jackson, Sir H.

    Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

    Dodd, J. S.

    James, Wing-Commander A. W.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Donner, P. W.

    Joel, D. J. B.

    Ramsden, Sir E.

    Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

    Keeling, E. H.

    Rankin, R.

    Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop)

    Kimball, L.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    Kirkpatrick, W. M.

    Remer, J. R.

    Dugdale, Major T. L.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

    Duggan, H. J.

    Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Duncan, J. A. L.

    Leckie, J. A.

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

    Eckersley, P. T.

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

    Edmondson, Major Sir J.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

    Salmon, Sir I.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Levy, T.

    Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

    Ellis, Sir G.

    Liddall, W. S.

    Sanderson, Sir F. B.

    Emery, J. F.

    Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

    Scott, Lord William

    Emmott, C. E. G. C.

    Lloyd, G. W.

    Shakespeare, G. H.

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Lumley, Capt. L. R.

    Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

    Everard, W. L.

    Lyons, A. M.

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

    Fremantle, Sir F. E.

    MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Furness, S. N.

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

    Ganzoni, Sir J.

    McKie, J. H.

    Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

    Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

    Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

    Gluckstein, L. H.

    Magnay, T.

    Spens, W. P.

    Goldie, N. B.

    Maitland, A.

    Storey, S.

    Goodman, Col. A. W.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Gower, Sir R. V.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

    Markham, S. F.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Tate, Mavis C.

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Guest,Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll,N.W.)

    Moreing, A. C.

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Guinness, T. L. E. B.

    Morgan, R. H.

    Touche, G. C.

    Gunston, Capt. D. W.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

    Turton, R. H.

    Hanbury, Sir C.

    Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Munro, P.

    Walker-Smith, Sir J.

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Nall, Sir J.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

    Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

    Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

    O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

    Warrender, Sir V.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    Hepworth, J.

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Wedderburn, H. J. S.

    Holmes, J. S.

    Palmer, G. E. H.

    Wells, S. R.

    Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

    Patrick, C. M.

    Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

    Hopkinson, A.

    Peake, O.

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Penny, Sir G.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

    Petherick, M.

    Womersley, Sir W. J.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Plugge, L. F.

    Hunter, T.

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

    Raikes, H. V. A. M

    Mr. James Stuart and Dr. Morris-

    Jones.

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    Lathan, G.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    Lawson, J. J.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

    Lee, F.

    Adamson, W. M.

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Leslie, J. R.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

    Gardner, B. W.

    Logan, D. G.

    Ammon, C. G.

    Garro Jones, G. M.

    Lunn, W.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A

    McGhee, H. G.

    Banfield, J. W.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    Maclean, N.

    Barnes, A. J.

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Barr, J.

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Mander, G. le M.

    Batey, J.

    Groves, T. E.

    Marklew, E.

    Bellenger, F.

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Marshall, F.

    Benson, G.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Messer, F.

    Bevan, A.

    Hardie, G. D.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

    Broad, F. A.

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Bromfield, W.

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Noel-Baker, P. J.

    Cape, T.

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jagger, J.

    Paling, W.

    Chater, D.

    Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

    Parker, J.

    Cluse, W. S.

    John, W.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Cocks, F. S.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Potts, J.

    Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

    Price, M. P.

    Daggar, G.

    Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Pritt, D. N.

    Dalton, H.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Riley, B.

    Day, H.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Ritson, J.

    Dobbie, W.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    Kirby, B. V

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Ede, J. C.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.

    Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

    1820

    1821

    Rowson, G.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Salter, Dr. A.

    Stephen, C.

    Wilkinson, Ellen

    Seely, Sir H. M.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Sexton, T. M.

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Williams, T. (Don Valley)

    Short, A

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

    Silkin, L.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Simpson, F. B.

    Viant, S. P.

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

    Walkden, A. G.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Walker, J.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Watkins, F. C.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers.

    Lords Amendments considered accordingly, and agreed to.

    Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

  GOVERNMENT OF INDIA ACT, 1935, AND GOVERNMENT OF BURMA ACT, 1935.
  11.19 p.m.
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to move:
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 309 of the Government of India Act, 1935, praying that the Aden Colony Order, 1936, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament."
  The first of the Orders to be taken to-night is that in reference to Aden. Hon. Members who followed the history of the Joint Select Committee on Indian Reform will recollect that, in paragraphs 160 to 162 of their Report, they recommended the transference of the Settlement of Aden in Southern Arabia from the Government of India to His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom. This Order, and the Instructions, which really go with and amplify the Order, carry that out. A new Colonial Constitution is formed. One point raised has been whether this will mean a change in the status of the citizenship of the residents of Aden. There is none. Those who belong to the Aden Colony will remain as heretofore British-born subjects. Those who belong to the Protectorate will continue to be British-protected persons. That status has always existed in the past and no change will be effected.
  11.21 p.m.
  Mr. MORGAN JONES: As far as this Order and subsequent Orders are concerned we on this side take the view that they carry out the intention of the Act of Parliament which gave so many of us difficulty in the last Parliament. I should like to ask one question in regard to the Aden Order in that there is no definition of the phrase "Secretary of State." May I take it that the Secre-
  1822
  tary of State in the Order refers to the Secretary of State for the Colonies and not the Secretary of State for India?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: That is so.
  11.22 p.m.
  Earl WINTERTON: Had this been done 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago the Colony of Aden would be in a much better state than it is to-day. Some of us in days past, officially and otherwise, advocated this course, but were told that the Government of India and the Government of Bombay would never agree to it, with the result that Aden was the worst administered territory in the British Empire. Fortunately, as the result of efforts which the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) and I and others made before the Commission we eventually succeeded in inducing His Majesty's Government, after 40 or 50 years' agitation, to take a more sensible view, and I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on having done the right thing at last.
  Sir PATRICK HANNON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any disability of any sort will be imposed on the civil servants in the Colony of Aden?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: None whatever.
  Sir P. HANNON: That is well.
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  Debate to be resumed upon Thursday.
  11.24 p.m.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Butler): I beg to move:
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 157 of the Government of Burma Act, 1935, praying that the Government of Burma (Karen Hill Tracts) Order, 1936, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament."

  1823
  In view of the statement of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) that these Orders are consequent upon decisions taken in the Government of India Act and the Government of Burma Act, I will restrict my remarks on this Order and the next two Orders to the minimum. They are extremely technical Orders. The first Order deals with the areas in the Karen Hill tracts situated in the eastern half of the Toungoo District and in the Theton District. The second Order relates to the question of double taxation and the principle which underlies the Order is that no one should have to bear a greater burden of Income Tax by reason of the separation of Burma so far as such burden might be created by the existence of two tax systems. Provisions are included in the Order with respect to double taxation so that the taxpayer pays the higher of each individual rate of tax levied in India or Burma. There are consequential provisions for the manner in which the tax is to be paid to the two Governments concerned, and in the case of a person who may have to pay a triple Income Tax, to Burma, India and the United Kingdom, there are similar provisions. He pays the highest rate of tax. The third Order relates to the India Office Pensions Order. The cost of the office will fall on the Exchequer with contributions from Indian revenues. The purpose is to make certain consequential arrangements for the payments of pensions to the India Office staff, and there are provisions as to where the contributions shall come for the payment of these pensions. There is a technical point with regard to the Federation which is also met. Under Section 313 (3) of the Act references to the Federation are to be construed as references to the Governor-General in Council during the transitional period.
  Ordered, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—[Mr. Butler.]
  Debate to be resumed upon Thursday.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 309 of the Government of India Act, 1935, and Section 157 of the Government of Burma Act, 1935, praying that the
  1824
  India and Burma (Income Tax Relief) Order, 1936, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament."—[Mr. Butler.]
  Ordered, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—[Mr. Butler.]
  Debate to be resumed upon Thursday.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 309 of the Government of India Act, 1935, praying that the Government of India (India Office Pensions) Order, 1936, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament."—[Mr. Butler.]
  Ordered, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—[Mr. Butler.]
  Debate to be resumed upon Thursday.

  FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL [Lords].
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL [Lords].

    CLAUSE 7.—(Amendments as to prohibited weapons and ammunition.)
    11.28 p.m.
    Mr. LUNN: I beg to move, in page 9, line 19, at the end, to insert:
    "(5) The conditions specified in an authority as aforesaid shall include such conditions as the Admiralty, the Army Council, or the Air Council, having regard to the circumstances of each particular case, think fit to impose for the purpose of securing that the prohibited weapon or prohibited ammunition to which the authority relates will not endanger the public safety of the peace."
    This is an agreed Bill, but during the Committee stage it was thought there was some doubt as to whether Sub-section (3) of this Clause was as tight as it ought to be in the interests of public safety. There was some doubt with regard to the use of firearms in theatrical productions and cinematograph films. The Amendment is designed to meet this point. It is an agreed Amendment in the interests of public safety, and will tighten up the law in connection with theatrical performances and cinema productions, and, I think, will cover up any other cases which might arise.
    11.30 p.m.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): I rise only to approve what the hon. Member has said. This is an agreed Amendment, and I do not think we had any disagreement in Committee, except on the question as to how best to secure the object we all have in view. When the hon. Gentleman brought up this particular point, we decided to confer, and the result of our conference is the Amendment which the hon. Gentleman has moved, and which, I think, will have the effect of strengthening the provisions of the Bill in this respect.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 15.—(Interpretation.)
    11.31 p.m.
    Mr. LLOYD: I beg to move, in page 14, line 19, at the end, to insert:
    "(3) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this section a Secretary of State may make rules under section fifteen of the principal Act for enabling all or any of the functions of a chief officer of police to be discharged by deputy in the event of the illness or absence, or a vacancy in the office, of the chief officer of police."
    This is a small practical point which has come to light recently. The Amendment is to enable a deputy to perform the functions of a chief officer of police in the case of the latter's absence through illness or for some other reason. It is not necessary in the case of county forces, as there are already provisions in the County Police Act, 1839, which meet that contingency, but there is not a similar provision dealing with borough forces. As there has been a certain number of cases recently in which there has been inconvenience arising out of the fact that when the chief constable has been ill it has been difficult for anyone else to perform his functions, it has been thought wise to include this provision in the Bill.
    Mr. LUNN: I agree that the insertion of these words is absolutely necessary. I have had a proof of this in the town nearest to my home, where the chief constable, who was a member of the Departmental Committee for this Bill, became ill and is now on leave of absence. I think the Amendment will make for more efficient administration.
    11.33 p.m.
    Mr. GOLDIE: May I ask the Under-Secretary whether this Amendment would apply to Clause 5, which as originally drafted contained the words "chief officer of police or his representative" but which was later amended to leave out the words "or his representative"? I would like to have the Under-Secretary's assurance that this is not an insidious attempt to reintroduce those words.
    Mr. LLOYD: I would like to give the hon. Member a complete assurance on that point.
    Amendment agreed to.

  POST OFFICE (SITES) (Re-committed) BILL [Lords].
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

  CLAUSE 1.—(Power to acquire lands.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  11.34 p.m.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: May I ask the Minister to give the Committee some explanation of what this Bill is about? It has passed through several stages, including Second Reading, without the Minister being prepared to vouchsafe any information as to what the Bill deals with. I hope he will be good enough to tell us in a few words what each Clause is about.
  11.35 p.m.
  The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Walter Womersley): I do not think the Committee will expect me to go through the Bill, Clause by Clause, but I shall give a general outline of what the Measure is intended to do. It is for the purpose of acquiring sites—four in all—of which two are in London, one in Manchester and one in Hereford. These sites are for extensions of Post Office accommodation rendered necessary by the expansion of Post Office business. The sites have been carefully selected,

  1827
  negotiations regarding them have been in progress for a considerable time and I am glad to say that we have been able to arrive at satisfactory agreement with all the parties concerned. No opposition whatever was offered to the Bill when it was before the Select Committee. The cost of the work will be considerable and it will mean employment for a good many people. There are certain financial provisions which could not be dealt with in another place and which the Committee will be asked to insert in the appropriate Clauses. As there is no opposition from any of the parties concerned in London, Manchester or Hereford, I suggest that the Committee will not consider it necessary to devote much time to the consideration of the Bill to-night and if any further explanation on any point is required by hon. Members, I shall be pleased to give it. I should say that I personally visited the two London sites, certain objections having been raised in the early stages of these proposals, and I am glad to say that as a result of my visit and following upon negotiations, we were able to reach a very satisfactory conclusion.
  Clauses 2 to 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  CLAUSE 7.—(Power to execute street work.)
  Amendment made: In page 4, line 34, at the end, insert:
  "[(4) The Postmaster-General shall pay compensation for any damage to property caused by him in the execution of the powers conferred by this section, and the amount of any such compensation shall, in default of agreement, be determined by arbitration in the manner prescribed by the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919.]"—[Sir W. Womersley.]
  Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  CLAUSE 8.—(Power to make agreements with local and highway authorities.)
  Sir W. WOMERSLEY: I beg to move, in page 5, line 9, at the end, to add:
  "and as to payments in respect thereof."
  Mr. GARRO JONES: May I ask the Minister why these words have not been
  1828
  put on the Paper? Has notice been given of these Amendments?
  The CHAIRMAN: That is a question for me to answer. Perhaps I ought to have indicated that these words are underlined in the Bill. The hon. Member's experience of procedure will enable him to understand what that means.
  Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  CLAUSE 9.—(Power to take part of certain property.)
  Amendment made: In page 5, line 24, at the end, add:
  "the Postmaster-General paying for the part required by him and making compensation for any damage sustained by the owners thereof and other parties interested therein by severance or otherwise.]"—[Sir W. Womersley.]
  Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Clauses 10 to 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  NEW CLAUSE.—(Land tax.)
  (1) As from the date on which any lands are acquired by the Postmaster-General under or for the purposes of this Act, any land tax assessed on those lands on the first day of January next before that date shall be deemed to have been redeemed in accordance with the provisions of the enactments relating to the redemption of land tax, and thereafter no land tax shall be assessed on or charged in respect of those lands.
  (2) The Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall grant a certificate of exoneration of assessment to land tax in respect of any lands acquired by the Postmaster-General under or for the purposes of this Act, and the certificate shall be registered by the officer appointed for the registry of contracts for the redemption of land tax.—[Sir W. Womersley.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  Mr. KELLY: Surely we shall have an explanation as to a new Clause. There is an entirely new Clause being added, and not a word of explanation.
  Sir W. WOMERSLEY: The reason why this new Clause comes in is because it is

  1829
  absolutely necessary to deal with the question of Land Tax. If we do not move it to-night, it will mean that the Bill will not have it inserted.
  Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
  Clause 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Schedule and Preamble agreed to.
  Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  11.43 p.m.
  Mr. KELLY: I want to ask for some explanation, particularly with regard to the Schedule. I notice that certain streets in London and Manchester are to be closed. Why are these streets specifically mentioned, when there is power in the Bill for the Postmaster-General to arrange with the local authorities—in the case of London, the London County Council and the Metropolitan borough councils, and in the case of Manchester, the Manchester City Council—and yet we find that particular places are mentioned, such as the Cleveland Mews in the Metropolitan Borough of St. Pancras, Warwick Street in the city of Manchester, and Little Lever Street in the city of Manchester? If agreement has been obtained with the local authorities for the closing of these places, I hope, so far as London is concerned, the Postmaster-General is not going to strike across our town planning arrangements by taking to himself certain powers without consideration for the locality. The attempt made by the Home Office to make the Metropolitan Police a Government Department is bad enough without the Postmaster-General coming in to close streets just as he feels disposed.
  11.45 p.m.
  Mr. TINKER: When we agreed to allow this item on the Order Paper to go through, it was on the understanding that it would only be the Committee stage; we never thought the Third Reading would also be taken. I claim that the Chief Whip has no right to take advantage of the position. It is now a quarter
  1830
  to 12. We are trying to get through as much work as we can. We have not used any means to-day to try to stop the business, and we find ourselves near midnight taking the Third Reading of an important measure. I want to raise my voice in protest by moving to report Progress.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member cannot move to report Progress on the Third Reading. He can only move the Adjournment of the Debate.
  Mr. TINKER: I beg to move "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I beg to second the Motion.
  Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  Mr. GARRO JONES rose—
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member cannot speak now after I have proposed the Motion from the Chair.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Captain Margesson): I would like to put one point to the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker). There is no question of the Government trying to put anything through that was not announced at Question Time to-day. There is certain business we hoped to get by suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule, and we said we wanted to get the Orders which have been passed and Orders numbered 2 to 6 inclusive. We said the Government hoped to get them, but the Government do not wish to press the House beyond what it is prepared to do. The Post Office (Sites) Bill has been discussed before. It does not raise any point of great controversy, and I thought that the House would be prepared to consider the Third Reading. I have had no official request from the Opposition that we should not proceed with it. If I am pressed hard to leave the Third Reading over to another time, it is a matter of small importance, and I should not ask the House to sit at great length in order to obtain it. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman, after hearing my explanation, will be prepared to withdraw the Motion.
  Mr. TINKER: I will withdraw the Motion, but I wanted to make my pro-

  1831
  test. It is taken too readily on the Government side that we shall consent to do everything they ask.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I will, if I may, make the remarks I was not quick enough to make when I seconded the Motion for the Adjournment.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has already spoken.
  Sir W. WOMERSLEY: In reply to the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) it will be necessary, in order to get the buildings upon these sites, that these streets should be closed. I can assure the hon. Member that in the case of Manchester the local authority has agreed. The evidence of that fact is that they never offered any opposition before the Select Committee. That applies also to the London County Council; no opposition was forthcoming. I am sure that if they had objected, their objections would have been raised before the Select Committee.
  Mr. KELLY: That is, if they know about it.
  Sir W. WOMERSLEY: They did know, for due notice had to be given.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  OLD AGE PENSIONS BILL [Lords].
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE BILL [Lords].
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

  WIDOWS', ORPHANS' AND OLD AGE CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS BILL [Lords].
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
  Clauses 1 to 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  CLAUSE 8.—(Old Age pensions. [1925 s. 7 (1); 1929 s. 5.])
  The CHAIRMAN: There is an Amendment to this Clause on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), but it is out of order.
  Mr. TINKER: Then I wish to raise objection to the Clause.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps I had better call the attention of the hon. Member to the rule with regard to Consolidation Bills. Just as he cannot move an Amendment which would make an alteration in the law, so he cannot discuss any alteration in the law on the question of the Clause standing part.
  Mr. KELLY: You have just been conducting another Bill through Committee, Sir Dennis, putting the Clauses not one by one, but 20 at a time. Is it the rule that on a Consolidation Bill we may not even take exception to the way in which a Clause is framed or to it standing part? If that is the position, then I cannot see the use of reading out the Clauses.
  The CHAIRMAN: Yes, the hon. Member could discuss the Clause or move Amendments if they were in order, but a Consolidation Bill cannot alter the law, and it has been the practice of the House in considering such a Bill in Committee to take the Clauses in blocks. If any hon. Member desires to raise any point on a particular Clause he can do so, and if it is in order he can discuss it. I may add, for the information of the hon. Member, that Amendments have been made in Consolidation Bills as the outcome of mistakes in the attempted consolidation.
  Clauses 9 to 24 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  CLAUSE 25.—(Provisions against double pensions.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  12.0 m.
  Sir ARNOLD WILSON: The report of the Joint Committee on Consolidation points out, in respect of Clause 25, that in the present circumstances, in the case of a blind person, there may be overlapping, respecting widows between the ages of 50 and 70, during which period they will draw double pension, and the case of other persons between the ages of 65 and 70 who might also draw double pension. So soon as they attain the age of 70, they cease to be able to draw their blind persons' pension and go back to the single pension. That position has caused great discontent and hardship, and there is good reason for thinking that it was not the intention of Parliament. I wish only to draw the attention of hon. Members to this grave anomaly, and to express the hope that it may be possible to remove it before long. Although this Bill may purport to represent the law, the Consolidation Committee have made it plain that it is not what they would wish the law to be, and that it is not what the country expected the law to be when this House passed the Blind Persons Act in 1930.
  12.2 a.m.
  Captain Sir IAN FRASER: May I just add my word to that of my hon. and gallant Friend, and to say that this matter has caused a great deal of heart-burning among many of my friends? To have had a certain income for, perhaps, 20 years, or, in a good many cases for five years, and then to have it cut off, is hardly pleasant. I will not say that it is worse than never to have had it at all, but it causes great inconvenience. I had hoped that there might be an opportunity for amending this Clause before the law was consolidated, but I hope that if any amendment of this law is contemplated, this point will be considered.
  Remaining Clauses ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Schedules agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be reported, without Amendment."
  Mr. TINKER: Am I in order, Sir Dennis, in raising my protest on this matter now?
  The CHAIRMAN: Not on the Question, "That I do report the Bill to the House."
  Mr. TINKER: I raise an objection to it being reported to the House. [Laughter.]
  The CHAIRMAN: If necessary, the hon. Member can divide against it being reported, but the proper place for him to make his protest is upon the Third Reading.
  Mr. TINKER: I accept your Ruling, Sir. I would say to hon. Members opposite, Do not be so quick in giving a laugh. It is all very well for hon. Members to laugh, but that is hardly in order.
  The CHAIRMAN: Order!
  Mr. TINKER: Just let me for one moment—
  The CHAIRMAN: What the hon. Member is saying is not in order, upon the Question that is before the Committee.
  Bill reported, without Amendment.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  12.5 a.m.
  Mr. TINKER: Before the Bill gets its Third Reading, to which I do not intend to object, I want to say a few words upon it. I know that a Consolidation Bill is a compilation of a number of Measures under one head, but I feel that when that is done there ought to be some opportunity of putting our points of view. There are many anomalies in this Bill, and I think that, when those anomalies have been stressed from time to time before the law is consolidated, they ought to be amended or altered, and that is why I raise my protest. As I said before, one of them is the case of widows who have not reached the age of 65, and I think it ought to have been dealt with.
  Mr. SPEAKER: It could not have been dealt with in a Consolidation Bill. The Bill would not be a Consolidation Bill if points of that kind were dealt with in it.
  Mr. TINKER: I take it that I have no opportunity of putting that point of view?
  Mr. SPEAKER: On this particular Bill it would hardly be the time to do it. The suggestion that the hon, Member is making would necessitate an alteration of the law, and, if that were done in this Bill, it would not be a consolidation of the existing law.
  Mr. BENSON: On a point of Order. While the Bill was in Committee, two hon. Members were allowed to voice their opinions on certain alterations which might be made in the law on this point, and they were not ruled out of order. Is not my hon. Friend entitled to do the same?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I understand that the particular points which those hon. Members raised were specially referred to in the Commttee's report, and that that was the reason why they were allowed to speak on them.
  12.8 a.m.
  Mr. ELLIS SMITH: I desire to make a few observations on the question of the administration of the Bill. I think that for historical reasons we should take advantage of this occasion, before the Bill is passed, to point out the differentiation which is creeping into the administration of Acts in this country. I hope that this Measure will be administered on as generous a basis as possible. The common people of this country have a right to contrast the huge expenditure that is taking place on armaments with the ungenerous terms on which pensions for widows, ex-service men and others are administered—
  Mr. SPEAKER: Is the hon. Member suggesting an alteration of the law?
  Mr. SMITH: No, Mr. Speaker; I am only attempting to take advantage of this opportunity in order to show the differentiation which is taking place in the administration of Acts of Parliament. When the administration is applied to poor people we find that it is mean
  1836
  administration, but in the case of other Pensions Acts we find an altogether different state of affairs. May I call the attention of the House to one specific case of which we have had experience? There is a difference in spirit in applying these Acts of Parliament, and some of us have had bitter experience of it.
  Mr. SPEAKER: If the hon. Member wishes to raise this point, he should raise it on a Supply day. It is purely a matter of the Minister's administration of Acts of Parliament.
  12.11 a.m.
  Mr. KELLY: I welcome the fact that we are having a consolidation of these Acts, though it might well have been taken at an hour when there might have been close examination to see that those who have done this work have done it properly, and we might pass it feeling that it was fit for the people to have. Owing to it being separated in various Measures, people did not realise the hardships and restrictions that there are. Now that they will be able to read it in one Measure they will find out that it was never so generous as they have been led to think. The fact that women are disqualified for very little reason will be made plain to them. I hope we shall very soon have an amending Measure and a pension system worthy of the people of the country.
  12.13 a.m.
  Mr. EDE: I, too, welcome the Bill, but I think we are entitled to ask the Deputy-Leader of the House, in view of the anomalies that have been pointed out, whether it is the intention of the Government to take advantage of the consolidation to remove some of the anomalies. After the Bill has been most scrupulously examined, the only anomalies to which it has been possible to draw attention within the Rules of Order are two minor ones in which a few miserable blind people appear to be able to get two pensions. I congratulate the Tory party on being able to press on the Government that that should be altered.
  Sir I. FRASER: There was no intention on our part to deprive any miserable people of anything. If the hon. Member had listened to what was said, he would have understood that we were seeking

  1837
  to have it altered so that these people might have more.

  RETAIL MEAT DEALERS (SUNDAY CLOSING) BILL
  Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read.
  Mr. LIDDALL: I beg to move, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
  They are substantially all of a drafting character.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, upon Monday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Nineteen Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.

INDIA.
  UNITED PROVINCES UNEMPLOYMENT COMMITTEE.
  UNITED PROVINCES UNEMPLOYMENT COMMITTEE.
  CENTRAL ADVISORY BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  CENTRAL ADVISORY BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  PENSIONED ARMY OFFICERS.
  PENSIONED ARMY OFFICERS.
  RETIRED CIVIL SERVANTS.
  RETIRED CIVIL SERVANTS.
AGRICULTURE.
  FAT CATTLE PRICES.
  FAT CATTLE PRICES.
  CREAMERIES, LINCOLNSHIRE.
  CREAMERIES, LINCOLNSHIRE.
HOUSING.
  BEVENDEAN ESTATE, BRIGHTON.
  BEVENDEAN ESTATE, BRIGHTON.
  ARABLE LAND (STATISTICS).
  ARABLE LAND (STATISTICS).
  CEREALS AND SUGAR BEET.
  CEREALS AND SUGAR BEET.
  COBHAM (RENTS).
  COBHAM (RENTS).
  POST OFFICE (GLENCRAIG, FIFE).
  POST OFFICE (GLENCRAIG, FIFE).
  PLAYING FIELDS, DEPRESSED AREAS.
  PLAYING FIELDS, DEPRESSED AREAS.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  MOTOR SPEED LIMIT, WIMBLEDON.
  MOTOR SPEED LIMIT, WIMBLEDON.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  INDIA (BRITISH TEXTILE IMPORTS).
  INDIA (BRITISH TEXTILE IMPORTS).
  EGGS (IMPORTS).
  EGGS (IMPORTS).
  NEW INDUSTRIES AND CLOSED WORKS, LANCASHIRE.
  NEW INDUSTRIES AND CLOSED WORKS, LANCASHIRE.
  SCOTLAND (ABLE-BODIED UNEMPLOYED).
  SCOTLAND (ABLE-BODIED UNEMPLOYED).
  TRINIDAD AGRICULTURAL COLLEGE.
  TRINIDAD AGRICULTURAL COLLEGE.
  UNEMPLOYMENT (SHELTERED INDUSTRIES).
  UNEMPLOYMENT (SHELTERED INDUSTRIES).
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The EARL OF ONSLOW on the Woolsack.
HEALTH RESORTS AND WATERING PLACES BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVI- VISIONAL ORDER (HELSTON AND PORTHLEVEN WATER) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
SOUTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

AIR NAVIGATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOB AIR (VISCOCNT SWINTON): My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I think it only fair that I should pay tribute at once as to how much this measure owes to my predecessor, my noble friend Lord Londonderry. It was under his administration that the great conception of a wide extension of the Empire routes was introduced—the all-up Imperial Air Mail. He had already set on foot, and had largely completed, the necessary negotiations with the Dominions, with India and with a number of the Colonies. Moreover, a very large part of this Bill is founded upon the recommendations of what has come to be known, and rightly known, as the Gorell Committee. I am glad to see

673
in the House my noble friend Lord Gorell who gave so much time and care to the preparation of that Report. It was Lord Londonderry who set up that Committee, which reported upon a new system of dealing with certificates of airworthiness and upon the whole difficult question of third-party insurance. It was my predecessor who received that Report, got it considered by the Cabinet, and announced the Government's intention in relation thereto. I appear therefore before your Lordships with a claim for authorship of only a fraction of this measure, but it certainly has my wholehearted support and that of the whole Government. If I can claim only a small share of authorship, I hope I shall not be found an inadequate expounder of what is in the Bill.
It would, I think, be convenient in the case of a measure which occupies a great deal of space in print, to translate it into rather simpler language such as I, at any rate, can understand and as can be understood also by those of your Lordships who do not follow complicated drafting any better than I do. Before I do that, perhaps I should give very briefly a picture of the particular objects of the Bill. In the first place there is the carrying on of the existing enactment about the granting of subsidies. The Bill empowers the Government to give long-term subsidies which are made necessary by the great Imperial air scheme. It also delegates the functions of the Secretary of State in regard to certificates of air-worthiness over a large field to an independent body established broadly on the lines which Lord Gorell's Committee recommended. It contains provision for the licensing of commercial transport if, and when, need should arise. No such steps are proposed to be taken at this moment, but your Lordships will see when we come to the clause that if such a need should arise, the powers will only be taken subject to positive and full Parliamentary control. The Bill institutes a system of compulsory insurance against third-party risk for damage to persons and to property, and is a necessary corollary of that instituted in the case of the Merchant Shipping Acts—a system of limited liability. The Bill also brings up to date the regulation of air transport in the light of experience and in the light of the recommendations of international conventions. It deals,
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too, with the powers of local authorities and others in relation to aerodromes, and it clarifies the law in certain respects. It also does a thing which I am sure will appeal to your Lordships: it gives proper and permanent statutory authority to a number of matters which have been governed by rather temporary legislation.
Having given that broad picture, may I, as briefly as I can—and I think it would help to an understanding of the Committee stage—take your Lordships through the main clauses of the Bill? Clause 1 deals with subsidies. As I said, it continues and extends the powers that already exist and, of course, have been exercised under the Air Transport (Subsidy Agreements) Act, 1930, and it gives power to make agreements for a longer term than the 1930 Act contemplated, for as much as fifteen years. The need for that is apparent. When you come to enter into agreements covering the creation of a completely new fleet for the Empire routes, covering such a tremendous innovation as the all-up system of first class mail through a large part of the Empire, obviously the arrangements you have to make are arrangements which must cover an adequate period of time; but I have made a very definite innovation in this matter in regard to the measure of Parliamentary information and Parliamentary control. Under the old system, under the Act of 1930 it was competent, and, indeed, it was the regular practice, for the Government to enter into an agreement, to make a binding agreement and after it was made to notify that to Parliament by means of a White Paper, and merely to provide in the Estimates of the year the current charges which arose out of the subsidy agreement. I am proposing—it will be found in the Bill—a system which provides for fuller Parliamentary information and, if need be, for fuller Parliamentary control.
As before, of course, agreements must be negotiated by the Government, but it is intended that when an agreement has been negotiated a White Paper shall be laid before, and not after, the agreement has been signed, setting out the general terms and tenor and purpose of the agreement. But, more than that, it is now proposed that whenever a subsidy

675
agreement is made, that agreement shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and if either House should pass a Resolution against it within, I think it is, fourteen days, then that agreement shall be null and void, but without prejudice to the making of a new agreement. I do not contemplate that in regard to any agreement, made as it will be after communication to Parliament in the White Paper of its nature and purpose, such a Resolution is ever likely to be passed in either House, but I do think it is right in principle that where there are agreements involving large sums of Government money, it may be over a period of years, Parliament should be fully informed of the intention, and that both Houses should have, if they so desire, the right to discuss those matters and to take action upon them. That will be the new procedure, and, of course, the money falling due under any agreement will come up in the Estimates in the ordinary way in any year.
Clause 2 deals with the licensing of machines for airworthiness. As I said, this follows very largely the recommendations of Lord Gorell's Committee. They recommended that this board should consist of representatives of the operators, the constructors, and insurers; and, if I may say so, I think a reasonable Amendment was inserted in another place which will insure that on that board there will also be—this is no reflection upon the board at all—an independent person appointed directly by the Secretary of State and a man with real practical experience as a pilot. It is proposed when this board is established—and it will not be established until an Order has been laid so that Parliament will see exactly what is the constitution and functions of the board proposed to be set up—to give it jurisdiction over all questions of maintenance, the approval of airworthiness and maintenance of machines, and an initial jurisdiction over new machines and civil machines other than those which are designed to carry more than ten passengers. I think that is a fair division of responsibility.
Your Lordships will be familiar with the practice in regard to ships under the Board of Trade, whereby a ship which carries I think it is more than twelve passengers has to have a special survey
676
for which the Board of Trade is responsible. When you come below that there is the Lloyd's survey and the Lloyd's Register. In the same way, I think I am right in saying, in motor transport, if you have a road vehicle which carries more than seven or eight passengers that vehicle has to have some special licence which is approved by the Ministry of Transport. In the air, where you constantly are getting, fortunately, wonderful new designs of larger, brighter and better machines, it is, I think, right that new great types should come particularly under the initial jurisdiction of the Air Ministry. Subject to that, Lord Gorell's recommendations are broadly accepted.
Clause 3 is a simple, practical clause which says in effect that when a seaplane is on the water as distinct from being in the air, if it comes into collision whether on the high seas or in a naval port or in a civil dock or harbour, it shall be governed by regulations which as nearly as possible approximate to the regulations which govern ships. In the air it is an aeroplane, but when it comes down on the water and has a chance of colliding on the water it seems reasonable that it should be treated as nearly as possible as a ship.
Clause 4 requires the operators of air transport undertakings to give certain particulars about the use of aircraft and the personnel employed. It is very like the information now regularly collected both as regards ships and motor vehicles. It is very necessary to have accurate particulars in order to know the size of the aerodromes you want and the accommodation required on civil aerodromes, and also for international interchange of information about civil air matters. All it does in fact is to give us a statutory right to require information which a large number of firms and airports now give us by agreement. As regards foreign lines we shall have power to get information through the Customs aerodromes. Your Lordships will observe that care has been taken to insert a provision to ensure that information which may be confidential or particular to one firm shall not be disclosed. Therefore firms will be perfectly secure in giving information which will only be collated and used in the aggregate.
Clause 5 gives power, if need should arise in the future, to institute a system

677
for licensing commercial flying- We are not proposing to take action upon it at this moment, but one never knows when, for safety or other considerations, it may become desirable or necessary to institute some system of this kind. We have thought, and I hope your Lordships will agree, that much the most practical way of dealing with this is to take a particular power of this kind but to provide that it shall not be exercised unless a complete scheme is presented in an Order to Parliament and is approved by both Houses by an affirmative Resolution. The curious thing is that internationally I suppose we could to-day exercise a complete system of regulation by licensing, because an English line operating in foreign countries requires to get a licence from the countries over which it operates and has to get Government consent here, and of course no foreign company can come here without the authorisation of the Government of this country. It is rather anomalous that we could, if we were so disposed to-day, institute a complete system of licensing for foreign-going and foreign-coming air lines, but that we have no power to do so in the case of the lines operating internally in this country.
Clause 6 gives power of detention for breach of regulations which, although perhaps in less convenient form, is already in the Act of 1920 and is an exact parallel to what has always been the law in the case of ships. Clause 7 is one of those clauses rightly dear to the hearts of draftsmen which really says that the Act of 1920 says what it was intended to mean. Then we come to several clauses dealing with local authorities. Clause 8 gives power to the Metropolitan Borough Councils to establish aerodromes. I do not quite know bow they were ever left out. What Parliament intended to do was to give local authorities power to establish aerodromes. The Metropolitan Borough Councils seem to have fallen between two stools, but everybody, including the London County Council, agrees that they ought to have that power. Clause 9 gives permanent statutory authority to local authorities to acquire land for aerodromes compulsorily. Hitherto, as your Lordships will remember, this has been dealt with in the Expiring Laws Continuance Acts and my noble friend who is now on the Woolsack [the Earl
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of Onslow] has more than once said that it was not a proper thing to do this year after year and that the power should be put into a permanent Act dealing with air transport. I am glad we have an opportunity now of setting our house in order in that respect.
Clause 10 provides that where a local authority has acquired land for aerodromes and used these compulsory powers—or even has acquired land by agreement, I suppose—it must not use the land for some other purpose or dispose of it without the approval of the Secretary of State. That seems a reasonable provision. As Parliament has given authority to local authorities to acquire land compulsorily for aerodromes because that was thought proper, and as the Secretary of State has been given by Parliament discretion to approve in any particular case, it seems reasonable that, a local authority having been given by Parliament and by the Secretary of State permission to acquire land for that express purpose, it should not be devoted to some other purpose unless the Secretary of State approves. Clause 11 gives the City of London Corporation the power to join with other authorities in the establishment of aerodromes. I do not know whether that power will be found necessary, because the City of London has already set an admirable example, and I would like to pay a very real tribute to the City Corporation for their great public spirit and wise vision in establishing, at what will be very considerable expense, a great air port on the eastern side of London.
Clause 12 gives local authorities power to carry on ancillary businesses at their aerodromes. Your Lordships will observe that this clause differs from the previous practice which was rather an odd one. If a particular aerodrome applied to the Secretary of State for permission to carry on some ancillary business, such as the supply of oil or petrol, and such permission was given to that particular authority, automatically it became a general permission for every local authority in the country which had an aerodrome to establish an ancillary business of that kind. It was felt that that probably was not the real intention of Parliament, and that what Parliament intended was that there should be a power to give the authority in any appropriate case but that each particular case should be dealt with on its

679
merits. That is what this clause in the Bill proposes.
Clause 13 deals with trespassing on licensed aerodromes. I am always nervous about the creation of new offences, because I am fearful that I may come under some new condemnation of which I have no knowledge, and lack of knowledge, I understand from the lawyers, is no excuse. I think your Lordships will agree, however, that not only is this in the interests of those concerned with air navigation, but that it is in the interests of the general public, because it is a very dangerous thing to have people wandering across aerodromes when machines may be landing. They have no business to be there, and just as with the much slower traffic on the railways Parliament long ago said that it was a special statutory offence to trespass upon a railway embankment—as most of us have done at one time or another after a rabbit—so it is now an offence, or will be one if your Lordships pass this clause, to trespass upon an aerodrome. I put it forward, not in any desire to create a new offence, but because I really think it is in the interest of the general public that they should keep themselves off aerodromes, where they may meet with grave disaster. I need hardly say that the provision does not at all interfere with any rights of way or anything of that kind.
Then Clause 14, which was inserted in another place, gives power to an aerodrome owner to light obstructions on neighbouring property. There have been one or two cases—there has been rather a test case, I think, about a certain gasometer—where some obstruction, it may have been in darkness or bad weather, was a danger. Obviously one wants to avoid any risk of that kind, but at the same time it would not be reasonable to make the owner of the property liable for lighting. Therefore the compromise is proposed that an aerodrome owner, if the local authority rules that some obstruction is really a danger to air traffic coming in to land at the air port in darkness or in bad weather, shall have the right to apply to the Secretary of State for leave to light the obstruction or otherwise make it not dangerous, and that leave may be given. The whole of the expense, of course, has to fall on the owner of the aerodrome, and there are detailed provisions for assessing by an independent arbitrator appointed by the
680
Lord Chief Justice if there is any dispute about the amount.
Then we come to the chain of clauses dealing with the limitation of liability for third-party damage. It follows the Gorell Report and the Rome Convention and carries with it, as I said, the necessary corollary that if you are to have compulsory insurance you must have some limit of liability. It follows in this respect the parallel which for many years has been the law under the Merchant Shipping Acts, and the proposed figures, which so far as personal damage is concerned have been increased from those which were originally proposed, are set out in the Second Schedule. They provide that every aeroplane has to insure for £10,000, but that not more than £5,000 shall be payable if the damage is to property only. The amount rises to a maximum figure of £25,000 according to the weight of the aircraft. There is a special provision for gliders for £2,000, with a limit of liability of £1,000 if the damage is to property only. There is, your Lordships will observe, no limit upon the liability if the loss, or damage is due to wilful misconduct on the part of the owner or pilot, and there is a provision which specially exempts workmen's compensation, so that workmen will be secured even if the maximum amount would otherwise be exceeded.
Then there are the provisions of Clauses 16 to 20 for compulsory third-party insurance. They follow the Road Traffic Act as nearly as possible. Clause 16 provides that every owner must insure by policy, by a guarantee or by a deposit; Clause 17 provides that the hirer will be liable if he has the machine for more than fourteen days; Clause 18 provides for every machine carrying the same kind of certificate that cars carry under compulsory insurance; Clause 19 provides that the owner must give the insurer the true facts, and Clause 20 provides that insurance companies dealing in this kind of insurance shall make the usual deposit. Your Lordships will be aware that the Board of Trade has set up a Committee to deal with the whole question of insurance deposits and various other matters connected with insurance. In this Bill, I think with the full consent of the insurance companies, the common practice is being followed. If as a result of that Committee's Report it were found desirable to introduce any reform into the

681
general insurance law, obviously that would properly find its place in a general Insurance Bill and not in a purely local measure.
Clause 21 empowers us to ratify the Rome Convention. Clause 22 enables a date to be fixed for bringing the insurance provisions into force. Clause 23 says that the Secretary of State and not the Air Council is responsible for civil aviation. I must make the confession to your Lordships that he has been so for a long time. The Director-General of Civil Aviation, who is doing his work, if I may say so, quite admirably, is entirely responsible to the Secretary of State, and matters of civil aviation as such never come before the Air Council at all. No formal statutory alteration has, however, been made in this, but now it is thought proper to state in an Act of Parliament what, indeed, has been the practice for a considerable time. Clause 24 gets us out of a similar difficulty. The Secretary of State has a sort of Jekyll-Hyde existence; he does some things as Secretary of State and some things as President of the Air Council, and I suppose that if he misdescribed himself in one of his functions some awful consequence might happen. It is, however, the same animal throughout, and this clause proposes that in future, whether he is acting as President of the Air Council or as Secretary of State, he may describe himself as Secretary of State.
Clause 25 in the same way assimilates the powers which the Secretary of State has for managing and disposing of land acquired for civil aviation to the powers he has in regard to land acquired for military aviation, and there are provisions in Clause 26 of very much the same kind; these give him, for instance, the power to make by-laws for civil aviation, a power which somebody had discovered he did not possess. It also corrects a small point which was discovered, that apparently there was no provision by which property vested in one Secretary of State could descend to another—a rather curious anomaly. Clause 27 really only repeats what has always been the practice: that where there is a subsidy provision there shall be a fair-wages clause, and the fair-wages clause follows the one which your Lordships inserted in the Sugar Industry Act. Then there are some minor and consequential amendments
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in Clause 28. Clause 29 clears up some legal doubt, and Clause 32 translates the Bill into the Scottish language. Clause 33 deprives the dead men of Ulster of some unknown preference which they apparently possess, I know not how or why. Apparently you could bring an action against the estate of a dead Englishman, Scotsman or Welshman, but the estate of a dead Ulsterman was immune. It will no longer be so.
Then there are the Schedules with which I do not think your Lordships heed greatly be troubled. The First Schedule lays down the procedure where local authorities exercise compulsory purchase, and I can save your Lordships time and trouble if I say that it follows, I believe, the procedure you have already approved under the Town and Country Planning Act. The Second Schedule sets out the limit of liability to which I have referred. The Third Schedule lays down the provisions which are to go into insurance policies. It follows the Road Traffic Act and, wherever it differs from that Act, it is more favourable to the insured person. The Fourth Schedule lays down how existing enactments apply to the Secretary of State for Air. There are the necessary minor and consequential amendments in the Fifth Schedule. In the Sixth Schedule the Ulster dead men have a Schedule to themselves and the Seventh Schedule gives the enactments repealed.
I hope I have made both the broad purpose and, so far as they are relevant to this debate and will help the Committee stage, the detailed provisions of the Bill reasonably plain. I have been rather longer than I meant to be, but I thought your Lordships would wish to have a fairly complete exposition of what is after all a rather important Bill. It is comprehensive, I think it is clear, and it is also practicable. It has been founded on long experience and on the work of bodies like Lord Gorell's Committee, of international experience, and I believe the Bill is, as I trust it will be found to be, a practical, useful, and comprehensive measure. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Swinton.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, on behalf of the Opposition I would like to

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echo the tribute paid to the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, for his foundation work on this Bill, and indeed his general work for civil aviation. He set a splendid example himself as a pilot, and we all know the great interest which he took in this most important service. Also, most respectfully, I would like to echo the thanks of your Lordships' House to Lord Gorell for his careful and painstaking work in preparing the ground work for this Bill. I would also like to add something of which the noble Viscount did not and of course was too modest to speak, and that is that he has explained this comprehensive and important Bill in a very lucid, terse and easily understandable manner.
Now I am going to voice, as briefly as I can, the views of the Labour Party on this very important Bill. With much of it we have no quarrel. With the most important part of it we have a very serious quarrel on a question of principle. We are opposed to the subsidy portion of the Bill in toto. We consider that civil aviation should be a great national and Imperial service, owned by the Empire and under the control of the Empire. We are opposed to subsidies to private enterprise in this and in all other Bills. We are opposed to control by private vested interests. And very important indeed, we believe there is another reason why the State should control and the Empire should control civil aviation, and it is this. We believe there will be no peace in the world without disarmament—no permanent peace. We believe there will be no disarmament without the abolition by agreement of military Air Forces. We believe there will be no abolition of military aviation unless civil aviation is under international control, for very obvious reasons, and we believe it will be easier to bring it under international control if the State and the Empire own it.
Having said that, and explained our position, I must at once make it clear that we do not propose to divide against the Bill. We make it a principle in this House, on this side, not to invite your Lordships to divide upon a Bill coming from another place which has been fully discussed there, but we do ask leave to propose, and I hope to carry, certain Amendments, with the concurrence of the noble Viscount. One Amendment
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will be to Clause 13, which deals with trespassing at licensed aerodromes. With what the noble Viscount said on the question of trespass we are entirely agreed, but certain private companies owning aerodromes have been at loggerheads with the trade unions to which their workmen belong, and have treated as trespassers the representatives of the trade unions who have come to the aerodromes on their ordinary business. That contest was fought out years ago with the railway companies, and was settled in a fair way. We want it made perfectly clear that this part of the Bill, which prohibits trespassing, will not be made a means of persecuting these men who come on to the aerodromes on their lawful business. I hope that the noble Viscount will agree to that. It is perfectly reasonable.
With regard to insurance, we think that an opportunity has been lost here of making the insurance of aircraft, which is a separate kind of insurance for easily understandable reasons, a State service. We believe that one of the best ways of helping civil aviation effectively—we want to help it, there is no difference between us at all on that point—would be by having cheap unlimited insurance, and the insurance companies, I gather, are not very keen on this kind of insurance. They have no actuarial statistics, they do not know what the real risks are, and I think there would be no great opposition from them if the State took over this insurance. Furthermore, I think there is a precedent also, in the unknown conditions at the beginning, in the fact that the State took over the insurance of mercantile shipping at the beginning of the Great War.
With regard to the subsidy, the figure has increased very greatly indeed. From 1929 till now we have subsidised civil aviation to the extent of £3,500,000. I dare say we have got good value—we have no quarrel with that at all—but under the Bill, during the next fifteen years we shall probably have paid in subsidies upwards of £20,000,000, most of which will go to one company, Imperial Airways, which has a paid-up capital of only £600,000. I want to make it clear that I have no intention of making any criticism of Imperial Airways. They were set up to do certain work, and from my experience, which is not slight, I

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think they have done their work admirably and efficiently. I took what was then one of the longest flights in the early days, to India, and I acknowledge fully and with admiration the way in which they got over all difficulties, including diplomatic difficulties, and also the high reputation which they enjoy. As a matter of principle, however, it seems to me wrong that this large sum of public money should be made available, for the greater part, for one company, without more control.
I spoke just now of the diplomatic difficulties of Imperial Airways in the early days. The noble Viscount spoke of the flying boat coining under the same rules of the sea as the merchant ship. The flying boat comes under the same law as the merchant ship, and therefore it can enjoy the freedom of the seas, which has been fought for and striven for for centuries. Therefore the flying boat has an advantage over the aeroplane flying over the land, which is hampered by frontier restrictions. I hope the noble Viscount and his advisers will do everything to encourage the development of the flying boat. I believe it is the best way of linking up the Empire in an efficient, valuable and safe manner.
That brings me to another matter which I must touch upon, and that is that this nation has most to gain by what I may now call the freedom of the air. I want to protest against certain allegations which have been made against the German owners of the "Hindenburg" for flying over this country. I cannot understand the mentality of people who become scared because the "Hindenburg," on its lawful occasions, flew over certain parts of this country. If military photographs are needed the last means any one would use would be an airship. Permission could be got for a civil aeroplane to fly anywhere, and if we make difficulties when an airship or anybody wants to fly across this country we shall have the same difficulties made for us when we want to fly across other countries. We are having difficulties enough as it is, and I want to enter this protest immediately against this curious agitation about the "Hindenburg's" flights.
I also hope very much that the Undersecretary of State for Air in another place was not stating the whole of the story when he declared that, provided certain technical matters were satisfied,
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the Government were going to return to the airship policy. The whole story of airships has been one long tale of disaster. From the end of the Great War until the terrible tragedy when a distinguished member of your Lordships' House was killed in the loss of the R 101 we spent something like £10,000,000 on airships, all of which either came to grief one after another or were scrapped. This is no reflection on British aeronautical engineering or British aviation, because the same thing happened to Italian, American, French and, in the early days, to German airships. I do not believe they are worth the cost; for war purposes, owing to their vulnerability and the rarity and expense of helium gas I believe they are practically useless. If the Americans like to do what they term "negative scouting" in the Pacific, let them do it; they have plenty of money. But if we have money to spend on that sort of thing it had far better go on the large flying boats. I would also like to see the State spending more money on research and experiment, particularly to ascertain the types of aircraft which will pay their way without subsidy at all.
I gave notice to the noble Viscount that I would like to ask him a question. Is it possible for him to give us some idea of the price of the large flying boats? I have seen various statements in the Press. I have seen that the "Canopus" type—for twenty-one of them—cost about £2,000,000. I do not know whether there is any reason why we should not have this information. And I do hope that we are going to push on with the development by this means of the North and South Atlantic services. I heard an announcement from the radio station over the week-end that we have come to an arrangement with the Pan-American Line for the North Atlantic services which is to come into operation in August. I am delighted to hear it and I hope there is going to be no further delay. We should have been flying the North Atlantic seven years ago. There are no technical difficulties in the way of doing it. We are not even flying the South Atlantic yet, although two other countries are doing it, and in view of our great interests in South America it is very essential that there should be regular British flying boats carrying mails and passengers to and from South America. I would

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like to have some words of comfort in his reply from the noble Viscount.
I do not wish in these remarks on the Second Reading of the Bill to appear hypercritical. I said at the beginning that we on this side of the House have great differences of principle with the Government, but apart from that we want in every way we can to help to develop civil aviation, both as an Imperial and as an international service. We want to see careful flying but bold finance and bold development, and of course we should much prefer that the ultimate advantages should be for the benefit of the people as a whole. We believe that the development of flying, instead of being the curse that it threatens to be through the use of the air weapon in war, can be and ought to be a great means towards peace, by bringing people closer together and breaking down the artificial barriers between nations. If you really got the whole of Europe air-minded and flying across these miserable frontiers that divide the peoples, you would bring the people together in a better understanding and, I should hope, in better co-operation for the peace of the world.
LORD GORELL: My Lords, after the extremely detailed and clear statement of the noble Viscount the Secretary of State for Air it is certainly not necessary for me to detain your Lordships for more than a very few moments, but I should like to express my appreciation on behalf of my colleagues and myself on the Committee over which I had the honourable duty of presiding for the very generous references made to the work of the Committee by the Secretary of State for Air, and I must thank the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, for associating himself with those references. I think it is only right that I should join also in the testimony that has been given to the work of the predecessor of the noble Viscount, the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry.
The Committee over which I had the duty of presiding was not quite like all other Committees. There have been public Committees set up, as I think everyone who has been in any way associated with public affairs, either directly or indirectly, will remember, which have been set up rather for the purpose of delaying, than for taking, a decision. That is certainly not the case
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with this Committee. When I first had the privilege of preliminary discussions with the noble Marquess, the then Secretary of State for Air, he emphasised that it was the definite policy of himself and his advisers to promote the maximum freedom possible for private flying, so that we came to our labours from the beginning backed by the hope that we should be able to make recommendations to that end. I think the Bill which is now before your Lordships' House shows that that policy has not been the policy merely of the individual Secretary of State, Lord Londonderry, followed by the present Secretary of State, and it is naturally a considerable satisfaction to me and to my colleagues to feel that we may have contributed in any degree to that end.
I think that the Bill which is now before your Lordships' House and the history of the Committee over which I presided are in a very complete way an answer to the arguments which are sometimes adduced that civil aviation would be better served if it were separated from the Air Ministry. Some even among my colleagues were apt to take that view. The labours of the Committee were enormously facilitated by the fact that before it was even set up there had been a Committee consisting of Air Ministry experts travelling over the ground and saving us a great deal of labour, and their whole attitude negatives the contention that the time has come, or is even within measureable sight, when civil aviation would be better served by being separated from the Air Ministry. It is quite clear that all along and for a good many years past the attitude of the Ministry has been, as far as was compatible with public responsibility and the development of the new science, to give it freedom. There have been many analogies adduced, referring both to the motor car and to the merchant service. The noble Viscount in moving the Second Reading made apt illustration of those analogies, but if they be pressed too far they undoubtedly, in my judgment at any rate, become definitely misleading.
I should like to associate myself, without travelling over all the ground covered by the noble Lord who spoke last, with that part of his speech which was directed to the ultimate future of air transport. We are, it would seem,

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at the parting of the ways, when air transport may become either one of the greatest curses that was ever inflicted upon humanity, or one of the greatest instruments for peace. The only point of difference that I would take with him there is that he spoke as if air transport were wholly confined to air public companies. We did envisage air transport in general—private flying as well as the public utility companies—the coming into the world of a new means of locomotion. To my mind this Bill is of much greater importance than the attendance in your Lordships' House this afternoon would suggest. It is indeed the first taking of a very definite step towards the freeing of flying from many of the restrictions which have governed it in the past, a policy with which, as I have endeavoured to indicate, successive Secretaries of State have shown themselves attuned.
The noble Viscount in moving the Second Reading referred to Clause 23, to which it seemed to me, from his remarks, he did not attach any very special importance. I must confess for my part that I do. When we were investigating these matters it seemed to us that a good deal of misapprehension had been aroused in many quarters by the fact of the definite association of the Air Council by name with air transport. We know that the great majority of the members of the Air Council are serving officers who are not definitely associated with civil aviation, and though it is not referred to in this Bill, though, as the noble Viscount remarked, it has already taken place, I attach very much importance to the change of status from Director of Civil Aviation to Director-General. I should like, if I may, to be permitted to associate myself whole-heartedly with the expression of appreciation of the work of the present occupant of that post which fell from the noble Viscount.
There is more in it than a change of name. We realise that the Air Ministry has a dual function to fulfil, but as long as instructions went out in the name of the Air Council the actuality was obscured, and there was a tendency, especially among those who had not followed air matters closely, to consider that in some degree civil aviation was the servant of the military side. Personally I think it is of great importance that that part of the Bill should be included. It is more than a change of title,
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and I am glad to admit it now because it was while I was at the Air Ministry as Under-Secretary that the previous arrangement was made. I feel that the experience of the past has shown that that was a mistake. It was thought at that time, now about a dozen years ago, that the Under-Secretary of State should be personally responsible for civil aviation. Secretaries and Under-Secretaries change and there was no security for continuity of policy. As I understand the change, the Director-General of Civil Aviation is directly responsible to the Minister, and in that way the change of title has laid a definite emphasis upon the duality of the work of the Air Ministry.
The noble Viscount who moved the Second Reading explained in detail all the different clauses of the Bill, some of which are highly technical. It is not for me to attempt to repeat or traverse anything he said. Where I think the real importance of this Bill lies is in the fact that it is a definite furtherance of freedom for flying. I attach special importance to Clause 2—the delegation of many of the duties to a body which will be representative of the interests of civil aviation. I welcome the Bill though I shall have one Amendment, at any rate, to move in Committee. I sincerely trust it will mark a definite stage in the history of the air, the development of which all of us, in our different degrees and ways, are so interested in promoting.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to say a word or two in reply, if only because it is so pleasant to find, when great issues divide us on so many matters, that there can be such a large measure of agreement on this important question which we all approach with the sole idea of doing what is most practicable in the interest of the country and of the Empire. The noble Lord opposite would not expect me, certainly on this Bill, to enter into any argument with him about whether it would be a good thing to nationalise the airways of the world or to nationalise insurance. If, and when, we decide in this country to change the whole of our system, no doubt airways and insurance will follow banking into the new heaven—or elsewhere; but that really would not be very relevant to this Bill, nor indeed did the noble Lord think so.

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Let me assure him of one thing. Whatever may be our approach or our ultimate method, we are all at one in desiring passionately that the airways of the world shall be ways of peace. I would add, too, that whether you have airways conducted by the State or whether you have them subsidised by the State, you want the taxpayers to get the best possible value for their money, and therefore you have got to proceed on the lines that you are subsidising at the least possible cost to the taxpayer an undertaking which is both technically and financially thoroughly sound; and your whole aim ought to be so to construct or subsidise that you will help civil aviation as soon as possible to stand on its own feet or fly on its own wings. I think we can say in this country that we have got better value for our money than any other country, and it certainly will be our aim always to secure that. The noble Lord noted the fact that a large proportion of the subsidy was going to one company. That is true, because it has been the considered policy of this Government, as of other Governments, in the Imperial field to make a single company the instrument of the Imperial routes, and nobody indeed has challenged that as a sound economic proposition. Subsidies will not be confined to that company, although they will be on these Imperial routes.
The noble Lord asked about the South Atlantic route. At the present moment we have under consideration the possibility of securing a service across the South Atlantic. Various companies or persons who have plans have been invited to submit them, and we have made in the last year a change which I think is a change of great importance. I have always felt that problems of civil aviation, when you get into the international field and have routes covering the whole world, involve much wider questions than can be dealt with by the Air Ministry alone. Obviously the Treasury comes in always, but the Board of Trade comes in for shipping, the Post Office obviously comes in wherever there is any question of postal contract for the carriage of mails. You have the Dominions and the Colonies, you have the Foreign Office and the India Office, you have also, to some extent I think, a certain interest in the Admiralty. About a year ago we arranged that all these questions of international
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aviation should come before a Standing Committee, which meets regularly once a week presided over by Sir Warren Fisher and upon which all the Departments are represented by very senior officials. That has had two great advantages. It has the advantage that you get the collective information which each Department of State concerned possesses, you get the combined opinion, and you get quick decision and quick action. I think that has been a very sound and practical thing.
The noble Lord made an appeal for the freedom of the air. He is a little bit out of time. There was, my noble friend will remember, a great international meeting at which the freedom of the air was advocated. It was advocated by every country in the British Empire. We found only three supporters, and there were twenty-five against us. We advocated it intensely but we could not carry it. What are we driven back upon? There is not the faintest chance of getting freedom of the air to-day, and if you cannot get freedom of the air you have to proceed on another tack and that is to get reciprocity. That is the tack on which we are proceeding now. What is the next best thing to freedom? We must make sure that where concessions are asked for from us, where facilities are granted by us, we shall get complete facilities in return. In that way, over the areas over which we fly and others fly to us, we shall get as nearly as possible to freedom in the air.
The noble Lord asked me whether I was going in for an intensive policy of airships. The answer is, no. I do not think anybody in this country, either commercial or military, has it in mind to engage in any such undertaking. I would agree with the noble Lord that the flying boat affords, for us at any rate, much better opportunities, although it has to fly over the land as well as over the sea, and more and more has this borne in on me the close inter-relation in the right sense between civil and military aviation. I do not mean by that the designing of machines that can be used for both purposes. In fact, no air line in Britain designs machines which can be used or would be much good for military purposes. But, in this much better sense are these opportunities, that the kind of research which goes on in the one is of enormous help to the other. I had an

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example the other day where in some new field of research the military side wanted something and civil aviation wanted something, and with a little care it was possible to link the two together and to make one set of experiments serve the purpose. Either set of experiments must have been very costly. A single set of experiments served the combined purpose of military and civil aviation. That, it seems to me, is the right kind of contact between the two.
Then the noble Lord asked me about the North Atlantic service. He is a little premature in suggesting that there will be a service running this year. He is also, I think, a little optimistic in saying that there are not any technical practical difficulties in the way, and that it might have been done years ago. I do not think he would find that those who are most actively engaged either on this side of the Atlantic or the other in planning for the services would quite agree with him as to the simplicity of the operation. But we are going ahead. I was also asked whether I would give the noble Lord the price of a particular flying boat bought by Imperial Airways. I cannot. I do not happen to know it, but, as a matter of principle, if I did know it, quite frankly I would not give it. I will tell the noble Lord why. I am sure he will appreciate the reason. It has always been a matter of principle where subsidies are given—it has been throughout with the subsidies given to Imperial Airways or to any other air company—that we do not interfere with the commercial management of the firm. It has been the same in other fields where subsidies have been given under any Government, and I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate that it would be a quite impossible position to begin assuming such a responsibility. Only one body can be responsible for the management of an undertaking, and that is the management of it, and you either have to have it managed by the Government, in which case it becomes a Government concern—which is what the noble Lord would like—or it has to be managed by the expert management of the business. You really cannot have a mix-up between the two in which the ultimate and effective responsibility, and, consequently, the efficiency resulting, would reside nowhere at all.
LORD STRABOLGI: May I interrupt the noble Viscount for a moment to clear up the matter? I do not want to press the noble Viscount for the price of the "Canopus" or any of these flying boats. It is a matter of general interest that is all. Everyone knows the price of the "Queen Mary" which we subsidised, and everyone knows the price of every warship we build for the Navy. What is the objection to giving the price of a flying boat?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: The answer is that when you put a ship into the Navy it is paid for by the taxpayer out of Votes. No doubt the price of the ship is disclosed in the Vote. When you give a subsidy to an air line, however, it is really on a quite different basis. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Gorell, intervened in this debate, because a debate on this subject would not be complete without a speech from him. I only wish to correct him in regard to one thing. I did not wish to suggest that I thought Clause 23 unimportant on merits. I treated it rather in passing, because I made the confession that it merely gave statutory effect to what has been the practice during the whole of my term of office and had been the practice before, but I am entirely at one with the noble Lord as to the importance of having civil aviation as a function of the Secretary of State and not as a function of a military Council. I am perfectly certain the noble Lord will confirm that that system is working well in practice, and I can give him the firm assurance that I have not the faintest intention of turning my back upon what I believe to be a right system and one that is working well. I am much obliged to the House for the way in which the Bill has been received.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, before the debate closes I should like to offer my thanks to the noble Viscount who has introduced this Bill and the Government for having taken the action that was promised by my noble friend Lord Templemore last year and adumbrated in former years in relation to the Expiring Laws Continuance Act by my noble friend Lord Stanhope. In Clause 9 as my noble friend has told your Lordships, the compulsory acquisition of land

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by local authorities for aerodrome purposes is provided for, and in the Seventh Schedule of this Bill paragraph 2 of Part I of the Public Works Facilities Act is repealed. I must say I have for a long time had qualms about using the Public Works Facilities Act, which is an Act passed by Parliament as a temporary measure and one that has to be renewed under the Expiring Laws Continuance Act yearly, for the purpose of acquiring land for aerodrome purposes. I think your Lordships will agree that it is very important to be careful not to make use of temporary legislation for purposes which, although quite legitimate and desirable in themselves, are such as were not contemplated in the Act. Section 2 of the Public Works Facilities Act and Schedule I provided for the acquisition of land for aerodromes and other purposes in relation to unemployment, and not for permanent purposes mentioned in this measure. Therefore I am glad that the Government have taken action to regularise the procedure.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FINANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the traditional supremacy of the House of Commons in finance ought not to preclude, and does not preclude, the undoubted right of this House to survey and criticise the financial arrangements for the year on the occasion of the Finance Bill which I now ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading. Following the example of my predecessors who have been in charge of this Bill in your Lordships' House, I do not propose to trouble your Lordships at any great length. I think a long speech on the Finance Bill, while suitable in another place, is unnecessary in your Lordships' House. I shall therefore venture to make only a short speech. Then noble Lords will no doubt continue the debate, and I will endeavour to answer any questions which may be put to me.
Your Lordships will remember the position when my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced his Budget of April 22 last. There was a final surplus from last year of
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£2,941,000. This surplus was nearly £2,500,000 more than had been anticipated. It was obtained indeed after Supplementary Estimates for £22,000,000 had been presented to Parliament and, allowing for savings, my right honourable friend had had to find an extra £14,000,000. I think your Lordships will agree that that was a remarkable example of the buoyancy of our Revenue and of the returning prosperity of the country. I cannot resist giving your Lordships a few figures, but I will not trouble you with many. Last year, in introducing the Finance Bill, my noble friend Earl Stanhope gave an example of the purchasing power of all classes. He told your Lordships that in 1934 there had been some 80,000 tons more sugar, 6,500,000 lbs. more tobacco, 270,000,000 pints more beer and 700,000,000 more cups of tea consumed. I can give your Lordships still better figures for 1935, except for sugar, the consumption of which remain stationary. As regards the other articles, 9,750,000 lbs. more tobacco was consumed and 230,000,000 more pints of beer. That I am sure will not please my noble friend Lord Arnold, whom I see in his place, but he will be consoled when I tell him that the people drank 2,400,000,000 more cups of tea.
When my right honourable friend came to the Estimates for the current year, as your Lordships will recall, he estimated the Expenditure for the year at £797,897,000 and the Revenue at £776,606,000, which left a deficit of £21,291,000. This deficit was more than accounted for by an extra £54,000,000 having been allotted to the Defence Services. Indeed my right honourable friend said that this was a Defence Budget and your Lordships will realise that the whole of the financial provisions for the year are affected and dominated by the necessity of repairing the gaps in our Navy, Army and Air Force. As regards the method of meeting the deficit your Lordships will remember what was done. There was, first of all, an increase of threepence in the standard rate of Income Tax, which is calculated to produce £12,000,000. As against this my right honourable friend, in Clauses 16 and 17 of the Finance Bill, has made certain concessions. He has increased the personal allowance for married persons from £170 to £180 and the child allowances from £50 to £60.

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The result is to offset the increase in the standard rate to married taxpayers in the lower ranges of income and they will be actually paying less than last year. The increase in the child allowances makes those allowances higher than they have ever stood before, but that is offset by clauses affecting educational trusts to which I will refer a little later. My right honourable friend added twopence a pound to the tax on tea, which is calculated to produce £3,500,000. He appropriated the balance in the Road Fund—to which I shall also refer a little Later—amounting to £5,250,000 and made various minor changes, for example, an additional £1 a barrel on beer imported from non-Empire countries, which with a, few other minor changes is estimated to produce £1,025,000. The total new taxation amounts to a net figure of £21,775,000, which is calculated to give a surplus of £484,000.
Your Lordships will also remember that the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced one or two new matters into the Finance Bill. Those are the clauses which are designed to prevent the avoidance of tax which is at present done to a certain extent in a perfectly legal manner. Your Lordships will see that Clause 18 prevents the avoidance of tax by people living in this country who transfer their property to persons abroad. They do it in such a way that while they retain control of the property they do not appear to be in receipt of income and therefore are not liable to tax. Clauses 19 and 20 prevent the avoidance of tax by what are known as one-man companies. Then Clause 21, on which there was a good deal of discussion in another place, deals with educational trusts. I am not going into detail on any of these clauses, but I will do my best to answer any questions about them. I may say, however, that my right honourable friend thought that the avoidance of tax had in some cases got to a very high pitch, and he saw no other way in fairness to taxpayers in general than the introduction of these clauses into the Finance Bill. He reckons that in a, full year the result of Clauses 18 to 21, when they are in full operation, will be a netting of £6,000,000 to the Exchequer.
My right honourable friend also introduced a new item into his Finance Bill in connection with the Road Fund. Your
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Lordships will find it in Clause 33 of the Bill. You will be aware that up to now all money from motor taxation has gone direct into the Road Fund, and they have paid money as it seemed good to them. In future the money from motor taxes, as from everything else, is going to be paid direct into the Exchequer, and the Exchequer are going to pay it out in their turn to the Road Fund by means of Votes in the usual way in the House of Commons. That does not mean in any way—my right honourable friend was emphatic in his declaration—that His Majesty's Government and the Treasury are going to curtail the road programme which has been laid down for the next few years.
Those are the main items of the Finance Bill, which, as I have said, is dominated by the vital necessity of repairing our defences in as short a time as possible. That the charge is going to be a large one there is unfortunately no doubt, and your Lordships will have to bear in mind that even after the heavy capital expenditure of the next few years has been done with, the charges for the maintenance of these forces will not sink again to the level at which they stood up to a year ago. That is obvious, and I think my right honourable friend made that very clear in the debate in another place. It would not be proper for me now to give any opinion or enter into any prophecy as to how this expenditure is going to be met in the next Budget or the one after that, but my right honourable friend, after full and very anxious consideration of this question, decided that, at all events for this year, the deficits on the Budget should be met out of current taxation, and in making his increases of tax he made them with the purpose that every class in the country should bear its share of the cost of rearmament.
I need not say that it has been a bitter disappointment to His Majesty's Government, and especially to my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that in a time of returning prosperity, when employment is increasing and when signs of better times are really in the air, at a time when there might have been really substantial reductions of taxation, the movement should in fact go the other way and fresh burdens should have to be put on, even

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though at present they are fortunately not very heavy. But I think your Lordships will agree, and the country will agree, that no country situated as we are can afford any longer to neglect its defences. His Majesty's Government were returned last November on this policy of rearmament, returned with a great majority. The country approved the end, and I think they will also approve the means to the end. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Templemore.)
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, may I say one word? As, I understand, this Bill is not going to be committed, this is the only opportunity your Lordships will have of discussing it. It is of course impossible for your Lordships to amend the Bill, but there is no reason why it should not be discussed, and I think that principle has on several occasions been maintained in your Lordships' House. I should like therefore to ask my noble friend a question. If, as he said, he will answer any questions which your Lordships may wish to put to him in regard to the Bill, I would venture to ask him if he could give us a little enlightenment, when he replies to the debate, concerning the proviso to Clause 18 (1):
"Provided that this subsection shall not apply if the individual shows in writing or otherwise to the satisfaction of the Special Commissioners that the transfer and any associated operations were effected mainly for some purpose other than the purpose of avoiding liability to taxation."
Does that mean to say that if the transfer is made for some purpose not entirely that of avoiding tax, no tax will be charged, or does it mean to say that some other arrangement will be made whereby the tax shall be paid? I do not think it is quite clear, and perhaps when the noble Lord replies he will be able to give a few words of explanation on that point.
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ternplemore, in moving the Second Beading of the Finance Bill, did so, if he will allow me to say so, in a speech of commendable brevity and clarity. I can always understand what the noble Lord means when he speaks in your Lordships' House, although I do not always by any means agree with what he says, and I shall have certain criticisms to make this afternoon. It is quite true that he had not a very difficult task in
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explaining the main provisions of the Finance Bill this year, because there is not a great deal to explain. Whatever virtues the Chancellor of the Exchequer may possess, he is not usually regarded as being conspicuous for financial imagination, and his Budgets are usually described by the Press as "humdrum," "unsensational" and "non-spectacular"; and then the papers go on to say that the Budget is "orthodox," "sound," "safe," and so forth. I do not agree with the last commendatory adjective, but I think the others undoubtedly apply. Whenever the Chancellor of the Exchequer has anything to do, whenever there is a change to be made in the financial arrangements for the year, we can always rely upon him taking the obvious Tory line. We can almost predict in each case what he is going to do.
Although there is not a great deal to explain in the Bill this year, that is not to say that it is not open to criticism. The first observation which I have to make is one which I have made before, and one which I shall go on making as long as the position remains the same: that is, to call attention to the fact that this Budget is not balanced at all, because it has no Sinking Fund. It is really not right for the Government to go on year by year presenting themselves with a piece of silver plate because of their balanced Budget, because the Budget is not balanced. I am not now discussing the question of whether there ought or ought not to be a Sinking Fund, and I am not going into it. No doubt there is a great deal to be said under present conditions for there not being a Sinking Fund, though the Chancellor of the Exchequer did, it seems to me, indicate that before long something would have to be done about the Sinking Fund. I would venture to remind him that to ignore the problem of a Sinking Fund is not to solve it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer does not now apologise for there not being a Sinking Fund, but simply says nothing about it at all. If I may say so, I think that is hardly respectful to the Sinking Fund. I think it is worthy of more than a passing phrase and should receive some apology; the fact is that for the time being it is left entirely out in the cold.
I put this point to your Lordships' House. We have a National Debt which now amounts to £7,796,000,000 without a

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Sinking Fund, and what on earth we are going to do if unhappily, which God forbid, there should come another war, with further gigantic borrowing and with this Debt of already nearly £8,000,000,000, is one of the terrifying problems from which the mind revolts. No doubt if those very much deprecated circumstances came about, there would have to be conscription of wealth. Nothing else would really be possible, so far as I can see, with the national finances as they are at present. But after all, if the Prime Minister is right in saying that the next war will put an end to civilisation as we know it, it will not very much matter whether there is conscription of wealth or not.
The main criticisms of the Finance Bill this year have naturally centred round the increase of the Income Tax and of the Tea Duty. So far as the Labour Party are concerned, if taxation has to be increased we do not object to an increase of the Income Tax. We think that if there has to be an increase of taxation it is one of the most appropriate sources, but it is a little bit strange to me, having heard many financial debates in this House during the last ten or twelve years, to witness a member of the Government standing up at that Box and without any apology proposing a higher Income Tax. I remember debate after debate in which there have been great fulminations from noble Lords opposite, in which they have almost exhausted their adjectival resources in inveighing against a higher Income Tax. They have always protested that it was the one thing to be avoided, because under it trade could not possibly prosper. Mr. Churchill reduced it one year by 1s. and the next year by 6d., with a view to helping trade. The fact is that this argument about the evils of a high Income Tax has very-little in it. It is not supported by any economist of note, and when challenged on the point noble Lords opposite have never brought forward any arguments in reply to those challenges. We do not of course like a high Income Tax, but I would remind your Lordships' House that the Income Tax is not a charge against profits but an appropriation of profits after the profits have been made. I am not going into the psychological effect of a high Income Tax. I think there is a certain deterrent there, but
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I am not going into that matter further now.
I should like before I pass on to say-something about the increase in the Tea Duty. I know it is thought that nothing new can be said about it, but I think the argument against the increase is one which merits attention and requires further analysis. All taxation should be equitable, economically sound, and productive. The Tea Duty conforms to the last principle, but not to the first two. It is not equitable and it is not economically sound. The argument is one with which your Lordships are very familiar. It is not equitable because it is not levied in proportion to ability to pay. The larger a man's family the more he has got to pay, although his ability may even be less than that of a man in an equal position whose wages are about the same. The Tea Duty is not economically sound because it is levying a tax upon what must be regarded as a necessity, considering the place which tea drinking has in the national life. I would like very respectfully to put that argument to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because I do not think he has quite appreciated the position in regard to the difference between the taxation of luxuries and the taxation of necessities.
When the tax on tea was being discussed he said that everyone must pay something towards the cost of armaments, otherwise some would be getting the advantage and not contributing anything. The position we take up is that a tax on necessities should not be imposed below a certain level of income. There ought to be a minimum, a proper subsistence level, below which there should be no taxation of necessities. We know that there is a percentage of cases in which working men's incomes are so low that there is not enough to support existence properly, and a Tea Duty is therefore taking away money which is needed for health and efficiency. Therefore the duty is economically unsound, because it is not good in the interests of industry and production that such men should pay money which ought to be used in building up health and working efficiency. That, very briefly, is our argument, and I do not know what reply there is to it. No reply has been given, probably because there is no reply, but I leave it there.

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I will turn next to a matter which I have raised in this House many times before, and that is the question of the yield of the Death Duties. Over a long course of years the Death Duties have been greatly under-estimated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his officials. Even last year I again gave them a warning, but they underestimated to the extent of £7,920,000, and in every year, except two, since the War the yield of the Death Duties has been under-estimated, and sometimes greatly under-estimated. One of the years in which that was not the case was the worst year of the economic crisis. I explained as well as I could some of the reasons why the yield of the Death Duties was going to be higher than was estimated. I cannot say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his officials have been very apt pupils, but they at last seem to appreciate the force of certain arguments which have been put and the general position, but like other converted sinners I am not sure that they are not suffering from an excess of zeal. They have estimated the yield of the Death Duties at no less than £89,000,000—£9,000,000 more than last year. It may be that this time the mark has been overshot. The yield for the first three months of the year has not been up to the proportion which it should be if that total is to be achieved. What will really happen with regard to the yield this year I do not know. I do not say that £89,000,000 is not enough, but I am inclined to think it may be a little hit too much. Time, however, will show.
The noble Lord was kind enough to say that he would answer any questions. The noble Earl on the Woolsack (the Earl of Onslow) asked him one question, and I want to ask him another. He has referred to Clause 21, and this clause, or a subsection of this clause, is without doubt the worst drafted section or subsection of an Act of Parliament which I have ever seen. Let me read it to your Lordships, because it really demands your attention as a question of the drafting of a Bill which comes before your Lordships. This is subsection (5) of Clause 21:
"Subsections (2) and (3) of Section twenty of the Finance Act, 1922, shall have effect as if references to paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of that section included references to the foregoing provisions of this
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section, as if references to a disposition included references to a settlement, and as if the reference to the making of a disposition included a reference to the making of or entering into a settlement, and subsection (4) of that section shall have effect as if the reference to that section included a reference to the said provisions of this section."
To an ordinary person that is absolutely unintelligible, and indeed it is unintelligible even to Government draftsmen except after prolonged research into the wording of an Act fourteen years old.
This method of legislation by reference should be resorted to as sparingly as possible and this is an instance to the contrary. It is the duty of Parliament to make its enactments as clear as words can do. It is particularly the duty of a Second Chamber, which is supposed to be a revising Chamber. This subsection might have been devised to achieve a maximum of confusion and obscurity. I cannot conceive anything being more complicated and less obvious in meaning than that subsection (5). Let me make it quite clear that I am not criticising the Government draftsman. It is the Chancellor of the Exchequer who is responsible for this Bill, and it is his duty to see that the Bill is presented to Parliament in the best form that can be devised. I think there is really a good deal to be said for demanding that the wording of this subsection should be changed and made clear. Some years ago we had this matter up in your Lordships' House in regard to the wording of one or two Unemployment Insurance Bills and the late Lord Carson, by his eloquence and persistence, forced a change. He held Bills up, he would not let them pass, and he forced Amendments. He compelled the Government to make the meaning clearer before the Bill was allowed to pass your Lordships' House. The noble Earl who now sits on the Woolsack said that your Lordships of course cannot amend a Finance Bill. I am not anxious that your Lordships should amend a Finance Bill in anything that has any financial effect, but it is not the case that you cannot amend a Finance Bill. I do not say the Amendment will be accepted in another place.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: It is not possible to do so in a Finance Bill.
LORD ARNOLD: I am not going to have a long constitutional argument, but it is quite possible to put an Amendment

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in and send it down to another place. I am not urging that that should be done, but I make a present of the idea to any noble Lord opposite, just to make constitutional history—they have much more influence with the Government than we have. I do not say he would achieve success. But it certainly would, I think, be a very happy state of things if this subsection were revised and the wording were made such as, I will not say persons of average intelligence, but such as a Member of Parliament can, at any rate with difficulty, understand. Before I pass on to the other side of the national accounts, I want to say one or two things which I am tempted to say because of the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Templemore. He was good enough to imply that I should not be pleased with the increased consumption of beer, and that is quite true. He says that the consumption of beer and the yield of the Beer Duties have gone up. Yes, and drunkenness has gone up. He did not tell your Lordships that. From 1932 to 1935 the prosecutions for drunkenness have increased by about 40 per cent. That is a very serious matter.
I should also like to say one or two words about tariffs. Lord Templemore spoke about the increasing prosperity of the country, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has dwelt upon this matter and has ascribed most, if not all, of the credit to our system of tariffs. Such prosperity as has come to this country, as compared with the low point of the depression of 1932, has been surpassed by many other countries proportionately. When noble Lords speaking for the Government stand up at that box and talk about our prosperity, you would think this was the only country which had made any progress at all since the depression. As a matter of fact the figures of the Financial and Economic Section of the League of Nations show that in the recovery which has taken place Great Britain is tenth on the list. There are nine other countries that have done better. It is quite true that we have made certain progress, but particularly have those countries made recovery which went off the gold standard. We are not told that from the Box opposite, or by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. My own opinion is that if we had not had any tariffs at all our recovery would have been considerably greater than it
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has been, and we should have been among the first five instead of being tenth.
Now I come to the other side of the accounts, the Expenditure side. The chief controversy in another place in regard to this Budget centred round the vastly increased expenditure on armaments. I am not going to discuss that matter in any detail, not because I do not think it is a very grave matter, but because I do not think that this is quite the appropriate occasion. We have other occasions. All I would say is first this, that for the expenditure on armaments to be reaching this year, as it already is with the Supplementary Estimates of last week, nearly £200,000,000 is such an appalling state of things that it almost makes one physically sick to contemplate what it may mean. And we are told that this in all probability is not the end of it. The Government take upon themselves an enormous responsibility in giving the people of the country to understand that this increased expenditure on armaments will give them security. That is the word which they used in their White Paper of last March, and that is the word which the Chancellor of the Exchequer used only a few days ago in another place. He spoke of spending large sums of money to make the country safe.
Well, unfortunately there is no effective defence against air warfare, and the next war, if another war should come, will be largely one fought from the air. It is wrong, it is deceiving the people, to give them to understand that something is being provided for them which, as a matter of fact, is not being provided and cannot be provided. It would be much better, much more honest, to tell the people what the Prime Minister himself in effect once said, and that is that there really is no effective defence against air warfare, because if the peoples in all the countries of Europe could really understand the fiendish dangers which surround them it is possible they would insist upon measures being taken—if it rested with them they certainly would—to avert the greatest destruction which, if it should come, the human race has ever known.
The noble Lord opposite talked about "rearmament." As a matter of fact, this country has never been disarmed. The total expenditure on armaments in this country has never been below the

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proportionate figure of what we were spending in 1914. The term "rearmament" is a complete misnomer; it should always be "increased armaments." As the noble Lord indicated, and as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has indicated in another place, this greatly increased expenditure on armaments—and we are told with practical certainty there is more to come—opens up a bleak financial prospect. Bearing in mind what happened when the National Government was formed in 1031 and what was done then under alleged financial stress—grossly exaggerated and misrepresented—I want to say as strongly as I can on behalf of the Labour Party that whatever is done or not done in the future in regard to financing armaments, there must be no tampering with the Social Services. In point of fact, there is a great deal of misunderstanding about the cost of the Social Services. I think I can prove to your Lordships that the real charge on the national accounts in respect of the Social Services is much less than is commonly supposed. I have sometimes heard speeches from the opposite side of the House, particularly from the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, who is not present to-day, suggesting that the Social Services impose an almost insupportable burden upon the country, although there is never a syllable of similar concern on the part of noble Lords opposite about expenditure on armaments, however heavy that may be.
Before I conclude, let me analyse the National Expenditure and let us see what are the real facts about it and what is the true cost of the Social Services when comparing our National Expenditure of to-day with pre-War figures. It is often said that the post-War Expenditure is about four times the pre-War Expenditure, that we are now spending about £800,000,000 a year where we only used to spend about £200,000,000 a year. That, broadly, is how the argument is frequently put. Let me examine this statement. The estimated Expenditure for the current year is £798,000,000. That is apart from the Post Office and the Road Fund which are, as your Lordships know, what I shall call self-balancing items. This figure of £798,000,000 includes about £224,000,000 for interest on the National Debt, practically all of it paid to people in this country. That is not expenditure in the ordinary sense of the word. It is
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money taken from some taxpayers and paid to other taxpayers for them to spend as they desire. It is not money spent by the Government, not money thrown into the sea. Therefore I say that the figure of £798,000,000 should be reduced by £224,000,000, bringing it down to £575,000,000. The corresponding pre-War figure in 1914, taking out again the Post Office and the charge for interest on the National Debt, was about £160,000,000. But the total national Income and wealth are very much greater to-day than they were in 1914. That is partly owing to the increased productivity of the country, partly owing to higher prices, and also to other circumstances.
Summing it all up, the fact is that the total National Income to-day is about 75 per cent. higher than it was in 1914, although the population is about the same, because the increase in population which would have taken place in the normal way since the War has been about balanced by the loss owing to the creation of the Irish Free State. What does all this mean? It means that the total National Income having increased by 75 per cent. since 1914, the figure of Expenditure of £160,000,000 which I gave for 1914 can be increased by 75 per cent. without proportionately adding to the burden that the country is bearing. Therefore, the £160,000,000 becomes £280,000,000. That is the true figure which should be set against the corresponding figure I have already given of £574,000,000. Looking at matters in that way, the increase is one of £294,000,000. That is a very different state of things to the £600,000,000 which we are often told is the figure. It is not true to say that the cost is about four times what it was in 1914. Moreover, this figure of £294,000,000 of increase should be carefully analysed to see what is the additional burden of Expenditure upon the total resources of the country.
This figure of £294,000,000 includes £42,000,000, the cost of War pensions. I need scarcely say that nobody objects to that. That is an item that is steadily declining and that will in course of time practically disappear. Another item in this £294,000,000 is the cost of derating. I do not think noble Lords will object to that. That was really a transfer from local authority expenditure to National Expenditure, and the charge for this item

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in the current year is £22,000,000. That, added to the £42,000,000, makes £64,000,000, bringing the £294,000,000 down for purposes of further comparison to £230,000,000. A large proportion of this £230,000,000 is for unemployment benefit and for new and increased Social Services. For instance, old age pensions have been doubled since before the War, and apart from that there has been a great increase in the number of persons receiving old age pensions, because there was a very large increase in the population in the decade of about seventy years ago. What I wish to impress upon your Lordships with regard to that is that it is a cost which, as I shall endeavour to show, would in one way or another have to be met out of the total national resources. Apart from unemployment benefit and old age pensions, there are now insured persons and their wives receiving pensions at sixty-five. Towards that benefit they contribute through insurance, and there is also the cost of widows' pensions, a new item compared with pre-War.
This kind of expenditure is really in the nature of a redistribution of the National Income. It is not expenditure in the old sense of the word. A great deal of it was incurred in pre-War days although it did not go through the national accounts. I have said that old age pensions have increased both in number and amount. They ought to be higher because the cost of living is higher and the aged poor have got to be kept somehow. If they were not kept by the old age pensions, they would have to be kept, as they were kept before old age pensions were introduced, by the local authorities, by relatives who could ill afford the money, by charity, by various institutions and so on. Therefore, whether this expenditure, or a good deal of it, goes through the national accounts or not, it would have to be met, and it is very much fairer and better that it should go through the national accounts in order that those persons who can afford it—the wealthier section of the community—should bear a considerable proportion of the expenditure than that it should fall upon the local authorities or upon the relatives or friends many of whom really could not afford to find the money to keep the aged poor. The point, I repeat, is that the total burden on the total
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national resources has not been greatly increased, and, in so far as it has increased, it is good expenditure called for on humanitarian grounds.
To a large extent the same argument applies to unemployment benefit. You would imagine from the way some people talk that in pre-War days there were no unemployed. The average number of unemployed before the War was somewhere about half a million, and they had to be kept somehow. They were kept a good deal more than they are to-day by payment out of the rates, or, again, by relatives and friends who contributed but who really could ill afford to find the money. It is very much better that the matter should be arranged as it is now. True, it is on a more generous scale, but the country can afford it, and it is only right that it should be so met. The present plan is one which conforms to a more enlightened social conscience. Moreover, I would remind your Lordships that this social expenditure is a great support for the home trade. It has undoubtedly been an important factor in helping our country to surmount as well as it has done the economic crisis. I could quote in that connection even from such an august source as a Bank Review. I could quote words from a Bank Review commending, in effect, this form of expenditure, and pointing to the beneficial character of at any rate a good deal of the expenditure I am discussing so far as the prosperity of the country is concerned. Another factor is this. We all know it is true that this expenditure, which is social expenditure, has been a supremely important factor in allaying social unrest. There can be no question about that. Considering the very difficult years through which we have had to pass it has been a matter of supreme satisfaction that there has been very little social unrest. Quite obviously, but for these social arrangements which I am discussing, there would have been a great deal more unrest.
Before I finish what I have to say I wish to touch briefly upon one more item which may be rather more controversial, though we in the Labour Party most strongly support it, and that is the increased expenditure on education. Out of this total expenditure of £294,000,000 which I am discussing, £60,000,000, as compared with pre-War, is for the increased cost of education. A certain

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amount of that goes for increased salaries to teachers. Teachers are better paid and they ought to be better paid. We say that this expenditure on education is a good investment. It brings a return in the increased skill and efficiency of the workers, and it is partly due to it that the National Income has increased to the extent it has done. It is partly due to our better system of education that we have the increased productivity of the country about which I have been speaking. Summing up the whole matter, I affirm with confidence that the increase in National Expenditure is one which, when carefully analysed, can be demonstrated to be to a large extent beneficial expenditure, which is proving and will prove to be an excellent investment for the country. I shall not detain your Lordships any longer. I have put my main arguments before you, and I thank your Lordships for having listened to them with the attention that you have done. I conclude by repeating this warning. Whatever else is done or is not done in the future in regard to financing armaments expenditure, we of the Labour Party urge that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should pay attention to our warning, which I will sum up as: "Hands off the Social Services."
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I do not intend to follow the admirable speech of my noble friend Lord Arnold, except to congratulate him on the very clear case he has presented to your Lordships. I wish only to raise one special matter, and that is on Clause 6 of this Bill. I believe in doing so I am breaking a gap through which the noble Earl opposite, Lord Midleton, might manage also to scamper. The noble Lord, Lord Templemore, referred to one or two novelties, as he called them, in the Budget, but he did not refer to the greatest novelty of all, one that is new in the whole fiscal history of this country, and that is the double-deck tariff as exposed in Clause 6. I believe, and I say this with great respect to the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, that this clause should not be in the Finance Bill at all. I believe I have the support there of my noble friend Lord Arnold. It has nothing to do with the Finance Bill at all. It has been smuggled through, shepherded as it were into the Bill to
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avoid a separate Act. Here I am speaking for myself personally, not having had an opportunity of consulting my noble Leader behind me (Lord Snell), but I would much have liked to see it left out, and I believe we should be constitutional in moving that it be left out.
This clause introduces what is known as the double-deck tariff, and is entirely novel in our fiscal system. It allows a semi-public body to decide how much iron and steel is to come into the country at a certain level of taxation—namely, 20 per cent.—and it allows the same body to decide that all other imports of iron and steel shall pay the higher duty of 33⅓ per cent. From the White Paper it is obvious that this matter has been arranged by the Iron and Steel Federation in conjunction with the International Cartel of Steelmakers—bound together in their Entente Internationale as they call it—of France, Belgium, Germany, and Luxemburg. Therefore the taxation level is decided not by the House of Commons, not by the elected representative of the people, but by the Iron and Steel Federation of Great Britain in confederation with the Iron and Steel Cartel of these foreign countries. I submit that this is a most extraordinary state of affairs. And the matter goes a good deal further. If your Lordships would look at the White Paper issued as a result of astonishment in the other place at this clause—Command Paper No. 5201—you will see that we have the following sentence right at the beginning. I would ask your Lordships to pay particular attention to these words because I submit that they are extraordinary. The purpose of this clause, which your Lordships are not supposed to be able to touch as it is finance—
EARL PEEL: This Bill is not certified.
LORD STRABOLGI: Whether it is certified or not it is a Finance Bill. I bow at once to the noble Earl, Lord Peel. If we can touch it I hope he will help me to touch it very soon.
EARL PEEL: I only thought the noble Lord ought to be aware of the fact that this is not, I understand, a certified Bill. Am I not right in that?
LORD STRABOLGI: In any case it is a Finance Bill. This is the first sentence of paragraph 1 of the White Paper:

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"The purpose of this clause is to enable effect to be given to an agreement, made on the 31st July, 1935, between the British Iron and Steel Federation and the Entente Internationale de L'Acier (otherwise known as the Continental Steel Cartel)."
Are we to implement an agreement made between these people sitting at Strasbourg, or wherever they went? I do not know but, if I may use an Americanism, "that is a new one on me." I see that this agreement was signed on behalf of the British Iron and Steel Federation by three personal friends of mine, all of them gentlemen for whom I have the very greatest respect. One of them is the noble Earl opposite, Lord Dudley, who, if he will allow me to say so, sets a great example to his and my order by his enterprise and industry in the great family concern which is so admirably managed in the iron and steel trade. The second name is that of Sir Andrew Duncan, who is recognised as a man of great eminence and of great efficiency, who does public service in many ways. Another friend, the third signatory, is Sir William Larke, who is most energetic in helping the iron and steel industry.
Therefore there is nothing personal in the strictures which I have just ventured to make, but I say it is really asking too much of Parliament to implement this private arrangement between the Continental Steel Cartel and the British Iron and Steel Federation. Not only does this agreement decide how much iron and steel should come into this country, but who is to have it. It is all brought under the umbrella, if I may use the expression, of this clause. Any one using iron and steel has to get it through the Federation or at a higher price through a higher rate of tax. I hope the noble Earl will enlighten your Lordships on this matter. I understand that they are going to ration our foreign markets as well. How much iron and steel is exported from this country will depend on the arrangements made with the Cartel. I think it is all most extraordinary. There may be a case for this state of affairs—I do not know—but I would like to remind your Lordships of what has happened in the important test case of Jarrow. In another place there were accusations and counter-accusations and a rather indefinite statement by the Government, but I hope that here the noble Lord,
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Lord Templemore, with his usual frankness will give us the facts, and I am sure the noble Earl, Lord Dudley, will be only too pleased that the facts should come out. I am certain that he, personally, has had no part in anything improper and perhaps he can give us a little light on this important question.
We ought to know the truth. Parliament rules in this country and not the leaders of the iron and steel industry or any other industry. We have not got syndicalism here yet, and in any case this would be a sort of inverted syndicalism because in the real syndicalism the workers concerned have a say in the matter. The Federation undertook when they were given the protection of this tariff in the first place that they would not exploit the consumers and that they would admit independent firms who agreed to abide by the rules, which were mainly rules, I understand, as to price. But I submit that it is dangerous to put powers of this kind in the hands of an irresponsible body—I use the word "irresponsible" in its technical and constitutional sense—a body not responsible except on this one occasion in the year to your Lordships' House, an irresponsible body whose motive is private profit. They have to think of their shareholders. They are mostly representatives of great public companies—that is not so of course in the case of the noble Earl—and they have in the first place to think of their shareholders. It is dangerous to put in the hands of such a body these immense powers.
Let us see how those powers have been used. There is a great shortage of steel in the country, partly owing to the continuance of the house-building and road-making programmes and partly due to the armaments programme. Under this lower duty under Clause 6, we are importing this year 525,000 tons, whereas last year the figure was 670,000 tons. I understand that a great deal more will have to come into the country. According to an estimate I have seen stated in another place and which has not been denied, there will have to be imported by the end of the year iron-ore, or iron itself, or steel to the total of about 1,500,000 tons—something of that order. Therefore we are not producing anything like our own needs in steel in this country. There is something to be said for a complete system of Protection and there

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is something to be said for a complete system of Free Trade. But I think there is very little to be said for an international trust deciding who shall work and who shall erect factories in this country. That is, in effect, what happens.
The Government say now that they are not concerned with whether steel works are put up at Jarrow or not. That is their latest pronouncement. Earlier in the year, in the winter, the Prime Minister and leading members of the Cabinet were going about saying that they must do something for the Special Areas and that they must find work; by all and any means. Their latest pronouncement is that it is not their concern. The Iron and Steel Federation in a statement published in the newspapers—I have The Times report in front of me—say that they are not preventing anyone from erecting iron and steel works at Jarrow. What is happening, however, is this. To erect modern basic Bessemer steel works, which I understand are contemplated, would cost between £3,000,000 and £4,000,000. That capital cannot be raised without being underwritten, and it cannot be underwritten in the City except with the good will of the Iron and Steel Federation because the Federation are now so firmly entrenched that they can control supplies of raw material and control the markets. If they oppose a project the finance houses dare not look at it.
In this case it is a section of the Federation which is hostile, because at the beginning Sir Andrew Duncan was favourable to the scheme I gather, and a well known firm of specialists in the steel industry who act both for the Federation and for the promoters of the scheme were in favour. What it comes to is that the section of the Federation representing steel interests on the Tees objects to the erection of new works on the Tyne in spite of the fact that we are importing immense quantities of iron and steel from abroad. I do not want to overstate the case, but I want to get the opinion of the Government and I hope that the noble Earl will give his side of the question as well. There is a case to be answered here. There is in this country, I understand, my Lords, only one basic Bessemer steel works, at Corby in Northamptonshire, and we are importing great quantities of foreign ore for our open hearth works.
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I understand that, if we had more basic Bessemer works, we could use more of our own ore. That is a technical question which I do not pretend to understand, but that is the information I have. If you erect at Jarrow or elsewhere another basic Bessemer steel works you must also produce other products to make a commercial success of it, and my information is—I do not know whether it is true or not—that it is in the disposal of the other products that there is difficulty from the Federation, and that the rival concerns feel that there may be some competition with them and have in effect stopped the scheme. Now this is not a wild Socialist attack on private enterprise, although such of the criticisms as I venture to make come from one who belongs to the Labour Party.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I think the noble Lord should develop that statement, if he could explain to the House how they have stopped the scheme. That is a very strong statement.
LORD STRABOLGI: I will certainly say how they have stopped it. They have stopped it because, if the Federation are hostile to it, the money cannot be raised in the City of London. We are not children in this House. We know perfectly well that the great steel industries in this country are very powerful and that they are in alliance with the money market in London, and the money market in London will not find the money, however excellent the scheme is, if they have the opposition of the Iron and Steel Federation. That is how they have stopped it. Now I cannot do better in this matter—and this is my last word, and in a way this answers the noble Earl, and I repeat that I am not making any sort of reflection on him at all—by quoting the leading article in The Times of July 8 last. I repeat that this is not a wild Socialist attack on private enterprise, though it is an attack, I admit, of the individualist against this danger of international monopolies, which I think is a very serious danger to-day.
I will read only one or two sentences from what The Times leader writer says. First of all, he has some reflections to make on the Board of Trade, which is so ably represented in your Lordships' House by the noble Lord opposite, who will in due course reply:

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"What has been surprising is that the Board of Trade, knowing the facts, should have been so unsuccessful in directing events."
The second sentence which I wish to read refers to the Federation:
"A statement purporting to be a defence of the Federation was printed in these columns yesterday. From that statement it appears that the Jarrow scheme was not rejected because of inherent defects, but that it was wrecked by the jealousies and rivalries of the members of the Federation in the North-Eastern area. Unless a much better defence is forthcoming, the conclusion is not easily avoided that the public interest has suffered severely."
Your Lordships will note that the language of The Times is much stronger than I have ventured to use in your Lordships' House.
The last sentence which I wish to quote from this very interesting leading article in The Times is this:
"The justification of the scheme was in the expert's opinion that there was room for such works, and that they would complete, and not disarrange, the iron and steel production of the North-Eastern area."
My only information, I assure your Lordships, is what has appeared in the newspapers and what has been said in another place. I do beg the noble Lord to give us some comfort on this question. I understand that the Board of Trade has the matter in hand. That really is not quite a sufficient answer, though I know that the noble Lord would not attempt to ride off by saying that the President of the Board of Trade has it in hand. I appeal to your Lordships. This is our one opportunity to-day of probing this matter firmly, and that it certainly needs probing I think the published facts go to show.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: My Lords, I need venture to trouble your Lordships, on this particular Bill, only on this subject. I understood that the noble Lord opposite, who I think has made out an ample case for investigation, would take under the Bill the opportunity of discussing the matter, because the terms of the Finance Bill are undoubtedly most unusual and invite criticism. I do not desire to call anybody in question in this matter, but I wish to call your Lordships' earnest attention to the most deplorable results which have followed the course which the Government have taken.
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In the County with which I am connected, as the noble Earl on the Woolsack knows, we happen to have taken an interest, as a County, in one of the distressed districts—namely, Jarrow. Three years ago a pilgrimage was made to all cathedrals by countless individuals who were invited to subscribe some nominal sum—half-a-crown, I think it was—towards the help of the distressed districts, and it was felt in the County with which I am connected that we should not stop there but see whether we could not do something for one particular district, the County of Surrey being in comparatively easy circumstances compared with these down-and-out districts in the North, in South Wales and in some parts of the Midlands. The High Sheriff of the County moved in the matter with regard to Jarrow, and I will only say this: that I believe he could not have selected a better or a more needy district. As a matter of fact, no man with greater knowledge or greater power of initiative could have been selected to take that question in hand.
I would only point out to your Lordships as briefly as I can what my complaint is. Nobody denies the difficulties of that great place, Jarrow. The large works of Palmers, on which it depended for any number of years and on which the houses have all been built up, have been closed. The question was, could you reopen them in such a way as to give employment, not casual employment but employment which in itself would justify the action which was taken? It is not merely a question of the steel works; you have at Jarrow unequalled opportunities. You have the breaking-up of ships which are actually there on the Tyne and can be there broken up more cheaply, perhaps, than in any other place. You have also other industries: the scrap which comes from breaking up ships is needed in the steel works; and further on it was proposed to put other industries which would use the steel which had been produced there. The scheme as dealt with and proposed by the then High Sheriff of Surrey, Sir John Jarvis, would have relieved the whole district.
What has occurred? Without going into detail, I will just mention three or four dates which I can substantiate from my own experience. In January, 1934, the option to purchase these steel works was taken. It was November, 1934,

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before the plan which was drawn up by the promoters of these new steel works was reported upon by Mr. Brassert. What happened during that time? Mr. Brassert, I believe, is a most admirable man; Sir Andrew Duncan, who had dealt with him, has been forwarding all these schemes; but somehow, between one and the other of the critics, we reached November without any decision, while the wage-earners for 24,000 people were waiting for employment. During that period I myself was in touch with three members of the Government, and two others who have been named to-night. There is one thing I venture to say, that neither I nor the public have any right, or pretend to the knowledge which would enable us, to decide whether these new steelworks could operate without disadvantage to the country. One thing for which I impeach the Government to-night is that there was no one to cut the Gordian knot of delay. It was stated in The Times, and by those responsible that the report by Mr. Brassert was ready months before it was published. It was sent back time after time for alteration, and it is stated—I do not confirm it—by interested parties, that well known steel makers on the Tees objected to the establishment of fresh works on the Tyne. I ask that we should be told why these delays took place, and that the door will be opened to further investigation by the Government of the full conditions.
By the end of 1935, when the whole question had been going on for nineteen months, a meeting was held at Harrogate at which it was decided to proceed, with or without the North-East coast members of the Steel Federation. By that time the Prime Minister had taken a hand. Let me say that I agree in every respect with what has been said in the papers by Sir John Jarvis with regard to the Prime Minister. He says:
"Restive of these delays and realising their inevitable consequences, I was able to get in touch with the Prime Minister of the day, who gave ungrudging and sympathetic help, but the General Election came and it was not until December, when I made my maiden speech in the House of Commons, that I had the opportunity of bringing Jarrow's claims into prominence."
The present Prime Minister made this pronouncement—the only other quotation which I propose to read:
"A great many people and a great many industries have benefited by the protection
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given to them by this Government, and there are many industries to-day—I instance the steel industry particularly—which, had the conditions of 1931 been allowed to go on, would have been bankrupt at this moment and are now enjoying great prosperity. No one grudges them that prosperity…There can be no better work for the men who have received well at the hands of the State than to pay back their debt to the State, to those who are most in need."
I honestly think that the action of the Steel Federation is one which ought to be taken into account by the Government, and that the matter should be taken by them into their own hands, to decide whether persons interested should be allowed to prevent the Jarrow industry from being set on foot. If it is not settled now this question will come up again and again. The whole of the Tyne has been kept in restraint with the greatest difficulty, because of the injustice which they feel has been done to them.
There is another public point of view from which I feel it is really necessary this question should be specially dealt with. People of this country are very little aware of the difficulties and dangers with which this country has been surrounded during the last few months, and very few of them give due credit to the Government for all that they have achieved. Again, the people of this country fail, I think, to realise the great advance which, despite the speech of Lord Arnold, has I believe taken place in our financial position, and also in our position relative to the rest of the world, but there is one thing by which the Government will be judged in this country, and that is whether they have or have not used their immense powers to enable people to be set to work who at the present have no outlet of any description for their energy.
I went to Jarrow merely to see what had already been done by the fund which Sir John Jarvis administered. I found vegetables being grown where they had never before been grown, and parks open for recreation, and the fishing industry pushed on by the provision of ships. I found that the Town Council had done everything they could in the provision of houses. I also went into some of the houses which did not belong to the Town Council. In one I found a man who had served in the War, a young man who was nursing a child, his wife with two other

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children, and two relatives—seven people in two rooms, and not one farthing coming in except the "dole," I do not say that the Government have not done all they can do to assist, but that man said to me: "What do you think of my position, sir, after three years, with not one day's work procurable in any direction?" And he had been a daily worker at Palmer's since leaving the Army.
I assure your Lordships that these things must not be allowed to continue. When it comes to a really distressed district you must not be influenced solely by the consideration of whether 5s. should be put on steel produced in a place which is new compared with a place that is old. The clauses in this Bill have given immense power, and they have been taken in order to promote further employment throughout the worst districts. We have been told that ungrudging sympathy has been shown in the manner in which these cases have been brought before the Minister, but they have been dealt with not by the Ministry but by, I should not like to say a prejudiced, but somewhat powerful body of men. I will ask the Government this. It is more than a year since I took a hand in this matter. It is more than a year since I saw the last official on the subject, and he assured me that by the end of June of last year this matter would be settled, and the men at work. It is now thirteen months since June of last year, and we are still wallowing in the trough of the sea. What I ask His Majesty's Government—for the Prime Minister is far too busy a man—is that they should appoint three members of the Cabinet to consider all the circumstances of this particular case and to give a decision before Parliament rises, so that at all events the people of the North-East coast and on the Tyne should feel that their case has met with all reasonable and proper Ministerial consideration.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies I should like to be permitted to make one or two observations, speaking as a past President of the British Iron and Steel Federation, in connection with what has been said by the last two speakers. I can assure your Lordships that there is really a good deal of misconception on
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this subject. I am not going to be led astray by the noble Lord opposite, Lord Strabolgi, in regard to the preliminary remarks that he made in his speech, or to argue with him the merits of Free Trade and Protection. Neither am I going to argue whether this Bill is or is not the right place to introduce the necessary legislation to control the arrangements which we made with the Cartel last summer. I am sure the noble Lord in charge of the Bill is perfectly competent to do that. I feel that there is a general agreement throughout the country in regard to the excellence of the arrangements which we then made, and which have since proved to have brought an immense measure of prosperity and employment to an industry which such a short time ago, to use a colloquial expression, was on its beam ends. It has, in fact, been rehabilitated by that arrangement.
The noble Lord referred to the prices of monopolies, but the matter is really perfectly simple. The price of steel is now virtually regulated by the Government. We are bound, as I think the noble Lord knows, under a "gentlemen's agreement" with the Imports Advisory Committee that we will not raise the price of steel without subletting to them good reasons for wishing to do so and receiving their assent. Therefore, that controls the price of steel made under British manufacture. By our arrangement with the Cartel made last year we undertake to give the members of the European Cartel a higher price for their commodity sold in this country, that is to say, a price which is on a level with British prices, in exchange for what they give up in quantity. That quantity has been limited to round about half a million tons. Therefore it will be the British Government, through the Imports Advisory Committee, who, by controlling British prices, will also control foreign prices. And the distribution of that material is really perfectly simple, because, apart from certain technical plants which have been provided for, it will not make any difference whatsoever to British consumers whether they get British steel or the amount of Continental steel which is imported under this arrangement.
The noble Lord talked about a fearful famine in steel, but I should like him to quote any instance which he knows of where consumers have actually been

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denied steel up to now. But still I do not want to quarrel with that argument of his. What I want chiefly to do is to make one or two observations, speaking for the Federation, in regard to this Jarrow controversy, and I would like to assure your Lordships at the very outset that the Federation, as a body of affiliated firms, has at all times used every endeavour to secure the necessary assent to a fully co-operative plant at Jarrow, and has never at any time attempted to prevent the syndicate from proceeding independently with their scheme. I say that without any hesitation at the very outset.
LORD STRABOLGI: Consent? From whom?
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: Consent from its members. It has used every endeavour to obtain the consent of its members. But of course it is obvious to the noble Lord that the Federation has no power whatsoever, even if it should desire to do so, to prevent any syndicate proceeding with the erection of any steel works in any part of the country. And it equally has no power to force upon any of its members a decision which their experience and judgment might tell them is wrong, or which demands a greater sacrifice from their employees, their shareholders, or indeed their townspeople, than they consider is justified. I yield to no one—and I know I can speak for my fellow-members of the British Iron & Steel Federation—in my sympathy for and my desire to help the townspeople of Jarrow, but I would like to remind your Lordships that the unemployment in Middlesbrough was greater at the time these discussions took place than the unemployment at Jarrow, and indeed I believe that is still the case. Therefore what has been Jarrow's loss has been Middlesbrough's gain.
The demands made by the syndicate in regard to their output at Jarrow, where they wished to place these works, was a good deal larger than the original output of the old Palmer Shipbuilding Company. It was in fact over three times as large. The output at Jarrow in the days of the old Palmer Shipbuilding Company, which went out of operation in 1920, was 2,000 tons a week, and the proposition of the new syndicate which proposed to erect this new plant, was for 7,000 tons a week. So that it was a great deal
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more than what the people of Jarrow had a right to expect. I think I might say that if the demand had been smaller—though I understand a smaller demand would not have been economic—the proposition might have been easier to push through. There was no question of anybody preventing the syndicate from putting their works at Jarrow, none whatever. They were perfectly free, as they are now, to go and put their works at Jarrow.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: Is it not the case that the Federation were able to lay down the terms on which Jarrow might produce, and that those terms, which have been quoted, made the whole thing impossible?
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: No, that is not true.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: It is stated in The Times.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: I do not think the noble Earl has seen an official statement made by the Federation, but they completely deny all those allegations made by Sir John Jarvis in another place. Those are quite untrue. I think the noble Earl will accept my statement for that. There is no foundation in it whatever. But, to resume, there was no question of any sort that they were prevented from putting their steel works at Jarrow or anywhere else. The steel producers at Middlesbrough were reluctant to give up their interests and the employment of their own townspeople in favour of a steel works at Jarrow. I think that is natural enough. Of the two alternatives that were put before them by the Brassert Report—namely, a steel works at Jarrow or a steel works at Middlesbrough—they were naturally willing to co-operate with the Middlesbrough scheme but not with the Jarrow scheme. The syndicate on the other hand had an option on their plan: at Jarrow, and therefore could not possibly proceed with the Middlesbrough scheme. I am not here to defend the action of the Middlesbrough steel producers, but why should they sacrifice the employment of their own townspeople, who have a greater amount of unemployment than existed at Jarrow, in order to support a scheme which will enable a strange syndicate to raise their money in the City of London and indemnify

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them against the reasonable risks of putting clown their plant at Jarrow? That is the point.
They wanted the steelmakers on the North-East coast to indemnify them against the risk of putting down their plant at Jarrow. I submit to your Lordships that that is really asking too much. But that was not the only consideration. There were other very considerable considerations which the North-East coast steelmakers had to take into account, and throughout these negotiations they have only claimed for themselves the same freedom of judgment as they were willing to accord to others. I would ask your Lordships to remember that, although there is a considerable demand for steel at the present moment, nobody can possibly say how long this demand is going to last; nobody can possibly say with what justification a four million pounds steel plant can bo put down at the present time in any location. Any location where you propose to put down a new steel plant has to be chosen with the utmost care, caution, and deliberation. It is that which was mainly in the minds of the Middlesbrough steelmakers, I understand. They only favoured a steel plant at Middlesbrough because, in the event of a further recession of trade it would be much easier for them so to organise matters that they could shut down any section of their plant which loss of trade made it necessary for them to do. They could not have the same interchange of commodities, of materials, if the plant was situated at Jarrow. That is quite easy, I think, for your Lordships to understand.
Apart from that, we always have to consider very carefully whether plant extension is justified at all. May I remind your Lordships of the state in which the industry found itself from 1921 to 1931, due entirely to over-production to meet national needs during the War? All this redundant plant had to be gradually sifted and weeded out before the industry could be rehabilitated. Your Lordship will remember that we were brought literally to the verge of bankruptcy duo to the collapse of prices after the War and to the cut-throat competition which went on by virtue of everybody trying to keep redundant plant going, and also on account of free imports. That was averted, firstly, by tremendous sacrifices
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on the part of the industry in which they sacrificed £50,000,000 of their capital, or 25 per cent. of their total capital holdings: by the reorganisation of the industry which has taken place since then; by Government aid and Government encouragement, and naturally also by the protective measures which the Government introduced at the same time as they told us we were to put our house in order.
I do hope your Lordships will understand that it is imperative we should carefully bear in mind the dangers of redundancy in plant by increasing our output to such an extent that we should be once again caught by a slump in trade and have to face up to all the financial difficulties of the ten years after the War. It is obvious that we have got to expand our plant to meet present demands, and that we are doing. I think it shows how efficient the industry is that we have been able to do that. As I have said, I challenge the noble Lord to find one single instance of any firm that has tendered for steel and has been denied supplies. It is necessary to meet that expansion with great rapidity, with far greater rapidity than can be done by putting down any new steel plant. Any new steel plant would take at least two years to put down, but you can expand existing plant in a matter of weeks, and that is what has had to be done to meet existing demands. I myself approach any question of plant expansion with the utmost caution. I would not put down plant at this time that I could not write off in two or three years. Surely that is a much better policy from the national point of view because, if a slump comes, that plant will have paid for itself. A new plant is a different thing altogether. A new plant, with £4,000,000 of capita], is something you have to cater for, something you cannot justify at the present time.
I hope that in the few remarks I have made I have shown that in all these matters caution is imperative. There was no question of delay. There was no question of ill will or of dog-in-the-manger. It is perfectly obvious that the syndicate, if they had wished to go ahead with their scheme, could have taken the risks we all of us have to take; but it was asking too much of the North-East

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coast manufacturers to ask them to cooperate to make tremendous sacrifices in order to indemnify the syndicate against the ordinary risks of business. I hope your Lordships will understand the misconceptions that have been made on this subject, and I hope the Government will support the Federation in this matter.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, first of all I have a question to answer. My noble friend the Lord Chairman, who was occupying the Woolsack but who is not in his place at the moment, asked the meaning of part of Clause 18. In detail subsection (3) prescribes criteria to be applied in determining whether an individual has power to enjoy the income of the non-resident. I understand the noble Earl is coming back, so I shall defer my remarks on that point. As regards the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, he criticised the Bill in his usual able way, but I do not think there is very much for me to answer in his speech except that he said he hoped the Government were not going to cut down Social Services. If the noble Lord refers to the remarks of my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his speeches both in the House of Commons and in the country, he will find there is no intention on the part of the Government to do that. He also said that noble Lords on this side of the House did not object to expenditure on armaments. I do not think that is quite the way to put it. Although we are fully alive to the necessity for expenditure on armaments at the present time, he must not imagine we like being taxed any more than he does. I hope the noble Lord will put that idea right out of his head.
As regards the very important point which was raised by the noble Lord opposite, and by my noble friend the noble Earl, Lord Midleton, as regards Jarrow, I think that has been almost entirely answered by my noble friend Lord Dudley in the most able speech to which your Lordships have just listened. As regards the position of His Majesty's Government, I would only say that naturally the Government wish to see industries established in the depressed areas. They have said so and they do wish it, but, with the best will in the world, neither the Government, nor the Federation, nor any member of the Federation, has any power to order an
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industry to start in a particular area, or to prohibit it from starting in a particular area. Whether or not an industry can, under economic conditions, be started in any given area is not a matter which normally comes under the Government's knowledge or control. The only thing we could do would be to say: "Unless you start a particular works in a particular area we will remove the tariff," but I think your Lordships will agree that that would not do very much good.
I should like to say in this connection that the matter is still engaging the consideration of the Government. In fact there is a deputation to the President of the Board of Trade from Jarrow tomorrow, when no doubt the question will be fully gone into again. As regards the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Midleton, that the Prime Minister should set up a Committee of Ministers to go into the whole question of Jarrow and its condition, on this particular point I cannot, of course, give any undertaking, but I do give my noble friend a definite promise that his suggestion shall bo brought to the notice of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and the Cabinet.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: May I interrupt my noble friend for a moment? I should be satisfied if he will undertake that the Government, having reviewed the whole circumstances, will come to a decision. I think my noble friend has gone a little beyond the fact in saying that the Government have no power one way or the other.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: I have given one undertaking, and I would rather not give too many undertakings in this House, because one sometimes goes a little too far. Therefore I would rather not give any further undertaking on the matter if my noble friend will excuse me. In reply to the question of my noble friend who has returned to the Woolsack, the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, I would say in regard to subsection (3) of Clause 18 that subsection (3) prescribes certain criteria which are laid down to be applied in determining whether the individual has power to enjoy income of the non-resident. Thus paragraph (a) covers cases where income is accumulated by the person abroad and the rights of the individual in the United Kingdom are such that he is the future beneficiary of the accumulation. Paragraph (b)

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covers such a case as that in which an individual here covenants to pay an annuity to a company abroad in return for, say, redeemable debentures; the receipt of the annuity by the foreign company would operate to increase the value to the individual of his debentures. Paragraph (c) covers the case of an individual who is entitled to capital payments from a foreign company in so far as the payments may be satisfied out of the income or out of assets representing the income of the foreign company. Paragraph (d) covers cases where assets have been transferred to a foreign trust under which income is accumulated but with a power of revocation under which the individual transferring the assets can obtain for himself the accumulated income. Paragraph (e) is a general test. Where an individual can control the applications of the income he has prima facie the power to enjoy it. I hope that I have answered my noble friend's question on that clause. I have answered to the best of my ability all the questions that were raised on this Bill during the debate.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be committed.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, may I ask, before that Question is put, whether it means that this is the last stage of the Bill and that no Amendments can be put?
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I am glad the noble Lord has raised that point. Perhaps I had put the Motion the wrong way. I wish to take the sense of the House, and I see the sense of the House is against negativing Committee. Therefore we should propose to put the Committee stage down for Wednesday.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EDUCATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments (according to Order), and passed, and returned to the Commons.
PETROLEUM (TRANSFER OF LICENCES) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
HOUSING BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).

MALTA: APPEALS TO THE PRIVY COUNCIL.
LORD STRICKLAND LORD STRICKLAND had the following Notice on the Paper:—To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware—

(1) That the validity of eight enactments of a former Government of Canada have been submitted to the Supreme Court of Canada;

(2) That the Court ruled that some were valid and some were invalid;

(3) That the present Prime Minister of Canada has announced the intention to appeal to the Judicial Committee of His Majesty's Privy Council against the judgment recently delivered by the Supreme Court of Canada in reference to the above.

(4) Whether His Majesty's Government have considered the prejudice to such an appeal from Canada, by the impediments to a similar appeal from Malta should the Malta (Letters Patent) Bill be passed without amendment in another place.

(5) Whether His Majesty's Government will reconsider the consequences throughout the Empire of interference with the Judiciary by the Executive or Legislature of one part of the Empire when an appearance has been entered by both parties in an appeal to His Majesty in Council on the validity of a law that affects either public or private rights.

(6) Whether His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of making provision in this House or in another place to avoid any appearance of discrimination between one part of the Empire and another, and to safeguard against personal hardship in any litigation before the Privy Council, and to avoid precedents that involve a weakening of the confidence heretofore entertained throughout the Empire as to redress, being obtainable when it is alleged that political or other bias had influenced a decision overseas.

And to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, a Press telegram has conveyed the announcement from Canada that the

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Prime Minister of that great Dominion has decided to appeal to His Majesty in Council with reference to the finding of the Supreme Court of Canada on the validity or otherwise of a number of Bills some of which are of a public character. That the Prime Minister of Canada should appeal to His Majesty in Council and bring before the Judicial Committee the question of the validity of certain Bills should be a matter for great congratulation on the part of all those who have been watching with grave anxiety the gradual dissolution and abstraction of Imperial authority not only from the Parliament at Westminster but also from the Crown. Since the Statute of Westminster has unhappily been passed, appeals to the Judicial Committee of His Majesty's Privy Council have become the most important link in the Empire that is left. It is the only administrative power recognised throughout this vast Empire, and anything that tends to diminish its importance is a matter not for the Colonial Office alone but also for the Dominions Office, for those Law Officers who are responsible for the administration of justice and, above all, for the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, who adorns the Woolsack as the greatest legal authority of this generation. He is the keeper of the King's conscience.
Appeal to the Privy Council within the solemn exercise of the Prerogative of the Crown is the foundation of justice. Would any Minister of the Crown be a party to any legislation or any gesture tending to say to anybody in Canada that appeal to the Privy Council is to be curtailed directly or indirectly, be it on a matter of public interest or of private interest? There is no one in your Lordships' House who believes that any Government would dare, in any way, to run the risk, already very great, that Canada would cease to bring appeals forward to the Privy Council. Nobody would dare to interfere with that sacred right in the case of Canada. But because Malta is small interference with that same right is made light of on information which is not correct. It has been unfortunately conveyed to your Lordships' House that the validity of law has been challenged in Malta otherwise than where private interests were concerned, and interests not covered by reserved matters. No one has challenged
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any action of the Crown within the ambit of the reserved matter; the Malta Constitution Act of 1932 only validated certain laws that dealt with reserved matters.
The spirit in the Empire with regard to the preservation of this right to appeal to the King in Council is very strong. It has been a matter of discussion in legal circles in Canada, Australia, India and elsewhere. It is regarded in the spirit in which St. Paul said: "I am a Roman citizen, I appeal to Caesar." He was unfortunate, for instead of getting justice he lost his case. He was wrecked in Malta on the way. It is that right of appeal to the King which very largely holds the Empire together. Respect for the Crown and for what remains of the Prerogative of the Crown is a sacred thing that ought not to be dealt with in a different way in this Dependency or that, on information which is incorrect and which is put forward simply to save the face of officials who ought to be the subject of inquiry rather than of protection. The basic reason for the passing of the Act of Parliament constituting the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council was the incapacity of any Colonial Department to ravise cases and complaints when there was good reason to allege bias or partiality. The feeling throughout the Empire that when there is bias appeal can be made to the King in Council is one of the links of Empire which is too sacred to be lightly treated. If you treat it lightly in the case of Malta, and dare not do so in the case of Canada, what becomes of the spirit of Empire among those who love and cherish it throughout the world and who have devoted their life to its preservation and augmentation?
There are two appeals from the small Island of Malta—one concerning private rights and the other concerning public rights, as in the case of the appeals coming from Canada—but this matter must be dealt with entirely apart from the question whether public or private rights are involved. The grounds for alleging that there should be a new trial are fully set out, not merely on the allegation of one of the parties but on the order of the Chief Justice. But here in your Lordships' House what is on the record was described as "monstrous." Since then the whole of the legal profession

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and ex-members of the Parliament of Malta have met to consider the speeches and the interruptions, and everything else that passed on that occasion. Report of the meeting of lawyers has been sent to His Majesty's Government, and I am therefore entitled to refer to it. I will do so by saying that the interruption which I had to submit to in this House for which there was no justification in the OFFICIAL REPORT next morning, found no echo of support in the Press of Malta except in one paper. In these circumstances I trust that His Majesty's Government will see that this is not the time to push on further legislation which indirectly deals with the whole of the prestige of appeals to His Majesty in Council.
It is quite unnecessary to deal with the real object of this Bill, if that is the same as the avowed object, by this method. We are close to the Recess. If this particular case cannot be heard before the Recess, there is plenty of time before a decision can be arrived at to prevent this blow to the prestige of His Majesty in Council, and to preserve the spirit of the declaration Civis Romanus sum—I am a British subject, I go to the King. Let this Bill die with the adjournment of Parliament, and let the relevant points be dealt with otherwise than by infringement of this most sacred of our rights. That is the appeal which I make to His Majesty's Government, not only with regard to a small Island but as one who has spent the whole of his life dealing with these questions of Imperial unity. I know what the feeling is on this question of Privy Council appeals. I know how it has been touch and go whether they should be entirely abandoned in Australia, and in Canada the ambit of their operations has been tremendously restricted. A very little shake in the system will bring it down. I appeal to His Majesty's Government to consider the want of wisdom in cracking a nut with a sledge-hammer, or even with a steam hammer, which is what this Bill is doing, with no benefit to the Empire except the whitewashing of gross blunders which everybody admits have been made. The persons who are responsible for making them should be called upon to answer before a Royal Commission or otherwise for their action, sooner than that the Government should take this tremendous risk of interference
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with the King's Prerogative to whitewash these blunders. That is the problem His Majesty's Government have to face, and I hope they will face it courageously and Imperially. I beg to move.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH): My Lords, the noble Lord has asked me a series of Questions which are down upon the Paper, and I intend in my reply to answer those Questions. There are six of them altogether. So far as the first three are concerned, I should like to say that the facts are as the noble Lord has stated them, and there is nothing for me to answer in the first three of the six Questions. With regard to the fourth I should like to say that the Government are advised that the action proposed in the Malta Bill, to which the noble Lord has referred, has no relevancy at all to the appeals from Canada to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, or, indeed, to any such appeal from any Dominion or Colony. I may say that, having gone into the question myself, I cannot see that there is anything comparable between the cases to which the noble Lord has referred—namely, the cases of appeal from Canada and from Malta.
So far as the Malta case is concerned, I explained the Government attitude at some length in the course of the Second Reading debate on the Malta Bill in your Lordships' House, and I feel certain that the House will not desire me to go into the whole question at length once again on this occasion. Obviously, in view of the history of the matter and in view of the fact that the Bill passed through your Lordships' House and is now under discussion in another place, it is not possible for me to do anything but to repeat what I said on that occasion. I think, however, that in courtesy to the noble Lord I should like to say that the attitude of the Government to this question is briefly this. While they fully recognise the general proposition that overriding legislation by Parliament while a case is before the Courts may obviously be open to objection, they hold that these objections do not obtain in this particular case, and that even if they did obtain there are strong reasons of general public interest which outweigh them. We agree, too, that if a litigant

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has a case before the Courts involving some question of personal liberty or title to property, then it would be clearly objectionable for Parliament, unless there were some overriding reason of State, to legislate during the course of the case so as to deprive that litigant of benefits which he might have expected to derive from the judgment of the Court.
But in the case at present pending before the Privy Council no such questions are in our view involved. As I said, I do not want to go into the whole question at length, particularly as the noble Lord has himself refrained from doing so, but he has, of course, raised the much wider question generally of the validity of the legislation which was passed in Malta during the régime of the provisional Government. As I pointed out, though the Government do not admit for a single moment that a serious case can be put forward against the validity of the laws that were then passed, at the same time the attitude they adopted was that, as legislation had to be brought forward before the Imperial Parliament in any case in order to pave the way for a new Constitution in Malta, it was obviously wise to take that opportunity in order to clear away any doubts that there might be on this point. As I pointed out during the Second Heading, it is perfectly obvious that even if the noble Lord had ultimately won his case, the Government would have had to bring forward legislation straight away in order to validate the measures which would thereby have been invalidated, because otherwise there would have been complete legal chaos in Malta. Therefore, as I said, in these particular and exceptional circumstances the Government took this opportunity of dealing with that subject as well as dealing with the general question of the constitutional position in Malta.
I want to repeat what I said on that occasion. If the noble Lord—and I do not believe this is a matter which is really of primary importance to him; in fact I know it is not—could show that he had suffered damage in any material or pecuniary manner by the validation of this legislation, His Majesty's Government would be prepared to consider sympathetically a claim for compensation. We realise perfectly well that he must have been put to considerable expense
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as a result of bringing this case to the Privy Council, and I wish to assure him that we have no desire to involve him in any loss of that character. In view of what I have said in reply to these Questions, it is, I think, quite obvious that, in so far as the latter three are concerned, we take the view that our action in this matter with regard to the appeal from Malta is being taken in entirely exceptional circumstances. The Government feel that it gives no ground for opening up the large questions of policy referred to in numbers 5 and 6 of the Questions on the Order Paper, and they therefore do not propose to consider them. Consequently the answer to these two parts of the Question is in the negative, and, my Lords, as this matter is at present being discussed in another place, I do not think the noble Lord could have expected me to give him an answer other than the one which I gave him when this matter was discussed previously in your Lordships' House.
LORD STRICKLAND: My Lords, I cordially thank the noble Earl who has just sat down for the abundant detail and the great courtesy with which he has endeavoured to reply to these Questions. May I at the same time point out that when Courts of Law have declined in first instance and on appeal to adjudge costs to either side that amounts to a finding that the case was not unfounded and is one that deserves to be argued? The noble Earl on behalf of the Government is offering the costs for the third time. No member of this House who is a member of the legal profession can fail to realise that when costs are not adjudged it is a declaration that the case is not one of unwarranted litigation. The noble Earl suggested that these two appeals from Malta are not of sufficient importance to be a matter for appeal to His Majesty in Council, but there can be no better contradiction of this than a three-fold offer in the name of the Government in this House of the costs. It is a confession that responsible Law Officers know there is an indefensible case. Nobody offers costs unless he knows he is in the wrong, and no one certainly offers them three times if there is justice on his side.
The noble Earl says nevertheless that he is convinced that the Government are right I do not think it would be discourteous to retort that as a member

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of the English Bar who has practised and has had considerable experience of the Privy Council, I beg to differ. And may I add that it is of no authority to say "I am advised" or that some counsel has so advised the Colonial Department. Any client who knows where to look for it can get any advice he may desire on anything. This does not apply only to the law—if you want to drink port when you suffer from gout you can go to Harley Street and get a doctor to advise you to drink port. And so it may be with special pleaders who practice the law. But when a responsible Minister on behalf of the Government makes an assertion on a question at law of this importance, the Law Officer of the Crown should be quoted, and I am convinced that there is not a Law Officer who would not sooner resign his office than plead that there should be no appeal in a case where a new trial is asked because in the Court below one of the Judges has been censured, and censured on a special appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council on the same proceedings.
I thank the noble Earl for his courteous speech, but his answer is really not an answer. He says that there is no infringement by the attitude of the Government of the sacred right of appeal to His Majesty in Council. Is the noble Earl entitled to be the judge of that, or is it for His Majesty in Council to decide. This is a right which is enjoyed by every British subject, be he right or wrong, in asking leave to appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It is a right which binds the British throughout the Empire to the King, it helps to keep the Empire together, and it is not for the noble Earl to decide whether Maltese officials have advised rightly or wrongly, but for the Law Officers of the Crown.
As to my having brought this Question before the House when discussion is pending thereon in another place, I have felt entitled to do so because of the advent of new facts of such weight that I am quite certain if His Majesty's Government will only take time to confer with the Law Officers and the Keeper of the King's Conscience, as they can easily do, they will not go on with the rushing of this legislation. The noble Earl spoke of the repayment of the costs of litigation. That is not the question. If it were a case of an unprotected lady journalist from Canada appealing to protect
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a business which she is working nobly to make a financial success thereof, would she be so treated I There is a lady in Malta running the English and the vernacular newspapers with the greatest circulation. Those newspapers have done much to make Malta loyal and pro-British. Those newspapers belong to persons who have a right to protect their trading rights. The Government passed an Ordinance as for a reserved matter to forbid what is allowed in England and is usual with newspaper advertisement posters; and I ask what right has any Governor to say whether posters are so ugly as to be offensive to the local population, and whether they must be taken down in the interest of the defence of the Empire?
THE EARL or PLYMOUTH: It is done here.
LORD STRICKLAND: It is not when municipalities act beyond their powers. The powers given the Governor by the Constitution are limited to dealing with reserved matters, and do not go so far as to entitle him to stop posters on private property. That is a matter for the Parliament of Malta alone to deal with; that is the authority which deals with domestic affairs. That is a fundamental part of the Constitution. The statement made by the Secretary of State (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) in another place is correct; the one made here is not correct. Mr. Ormsby-Gore said on the Second Beading in another place that local matters under the diarchical Constitution were the business of the Parliament of Malta. All these reasons given by the noble Earl are not the real reasons for which this Bill is being pressed. There are other reasons, and those other reasons can be dealt with in a much more statesmanlike manner after further consideration than by saying that laws have been validly passed when they have not been validly passed. I again appeal to the Government, and to the noble Earl, to agree that nothing should be done that in any way affects the sacred right of every subject of the King to appeal to His Majesty in Council from overseas, and that this right should not be in any way challenged. I beg to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at twelve minutes before seven o'clock.

MIDSOMER NORTON GAS ORDER, 1936.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Midsomer Norton Gas and Coke Company Limited:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

MINEHEAD GAS ORDER, 1936.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Minehead Gas Light and Coke Company, Limited:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

MOSSLEY AND SADDLEWORTH GAS ORDER, 1936.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Mossley and Saddleworth Gas Company, Limited:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative. Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

NARBOROUGH AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1936.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Narborough, Blaby, Enderby and Whetstone Gas Light and Coke Company, Limited:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

CHELMSFORD GAS ORDER, 1936.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Mayor, aldermen and burgesses of the Borough of Chelmsford:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

HELSTON AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1936.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Helston and District Gas Company Limited:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

SUNDERLAND GAS ORDER, 1936.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Sunderland Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

SHEFFIELD GAS (No. 2) ORDER, 1936.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Sheffield Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WANDSWORTH AND DISTRICT GAS (No. 2) ORDER, 1936.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Wandsworth and I District Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

CLEARING OFFICE (ITALY) ORDER, 1936.
Order, dated 10th July, 1936, made by the Treasury under Section 1 of the Debts Clearing Offices and Import Restrictions Act, 1934:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.