Sitting of 2 July 1936

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
London County Council (Money) Bill, Read the Third time, and passed.
Liverpool Corporation Bill [Lords] (by Order), Read a Second time, and committed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    ALLOWANCES (CHILDREN).
    Mr. T. JOHNSTONasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the information supplied by the Ministry of Health in Costing Returns, Part III, that the cost of provisions alone for the inmates of Poor Law children's homes, where bulk purchase can operate, varies from 3.04s. to 10.8s. per head per week, he will take steps to raise children's allowances under the Unemployment Insurance or Unemployment Assistance Regulations to meet the cost of an adequate diet?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Mr. Ernest Brown): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to a question by the hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Barnes) on Thursday last as to the cost of feeding in children's homes. The figures quoted by the hon. Member are obtained by dividing the cost of the provisions for the staff and for the children concerned by the number of the children. For this and other reasons, including those mentioned in the reply to which I have referred, the figures are not comparable with the children's rates under unemployment insurance and unemployment assistance.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: In view of that statement, will the right hon. Gentleman
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    undertake in future that these figures will be given with some explanation which will at any rate give them a meaning?
    Mr. BROWN: That is a matter for the authorities themselves. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there are vast differences. Indeed, there is one case in which there is as much as 21s.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman is issuing figures which clearly and specifically state that the cost of food purchased wholesale per individual is as high as 10s. per week?
    Mr. BROWN: The House knows that that depends on the size of the home, the kind of food, and the way the home is run.
    Mr. PALING: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government set up a committee which went into this question, and in the homes of 200 children it was found that where they bought wholesale it cost about 4s. a week to feed each child under 15 years of age?

    CASUAL LABOURERS (MERSEYSIDE).
    Mr. GIBBINSasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the dockers on Merseyside are still signing 11 times a week when unemployed; and will he take steps to secure an alteration?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I cannot add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) on this subject on 21st May last.
    Mr. GIBBINS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the committee last met, and when it is likely to report?
    Mr. BROWN: If the hon. Member will put that question down, I will give him an answer.
    Mr. GIBBINS: This question has been repeated for months, and we have received no satisfaction.
    Mr. BROWN: The hon. Member knows that this council is a joint body of employers and workers, and he knows that the question is one of the most difficult and complicated in the whole range of industry. I have no power to put pressure upon them to expedite their inquiries, and I am sure the House would not wish me to do so.
    Mr. LOGAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that in Liverpool the dockers are travelling four and five miles twice a day?
    Mr. BROWN: And the fact that this joint body has taken so long to investigate the problem shows that the problem differs in all the ports, and, as I have said, the question is one of the most difficult and complicated in the whole range of industry.
    Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHS: It it not possible for the Minister to put into operation in Liverpool the same system that is in operation in some of the mining areas, where the men sign only twice a week and not 11 times?
    Mr. BROWN: The circumstances are entirely different.
    Mr. GRIFFITHS: They are bound to be if you do not want to change them.

    ASSISTANCE REGULATIONS.
    Mr. BENJAMIN SMITHasked the Minister of Labour whether he will ensure strict compliance with the provisions of Section 52 of the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1934, to the effect that any variations he may propose to make to draft regulations submitted by the Unemployment Assistance Board shall be reported to Parliament?
    Mr. E. BROWN: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. LAWSONasked the Minister of Labour whether the Unemployment Assistance Board has yet laid before him a draft of the Regulations; if so, whether such draft has been amended by him; and whether a report setting forth his reasons and a copy of the report of the board on variations and amendments made by him will be laid before the House?
    Mr. BROWN: As regards the first part of the question, while there have been consultations between the board and myself with regard to the contents of the new Regulations, the board have not yet finally settled the terms of the draft which they intend to propose and consequently have not yet submitted their draft Regulations to me. The second and third parts of the question do not therefore arise.
    Mr. LAWSON: Will the House have a report about these consultations, and is
    584
    he aware that this question is under the terms of the Act, that those terms were laid down by the Government themselves, that it will therefore be necessary, if the Regulations are not amended, to give the House all the information, and that it is very important that we should have the report about the consultations?
    Mr. BROWN: Certainly. The hon. Member will understand that there is nothing in the Act which prevents the consultations, and indeed it is only common sense, in view of the Temporary Provisions Act, that they should take place.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: Is the board independent of the Government?
    Mr. BROWN: Certainly.
    Mr. LAWSON: Is it not a fact that the Act laid down that the original report and the draft has to come from the board itself—
    Mr. BROWN: That is exactly what will happen.
    Mr. LAWSON: —and that any comments upon it have to be reported to the House, and is the right hon. Gentleman not getting past that by his consultations?
    Mr. BROWN: That is not so.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Is it not extremely important to understand whether the draft Regulations which have come from the Unemployment Assistance Board were amended or are to be amended as a result of the decision taken by the Government?
    Mr. BROWN: It is obviously impossible for me to say that until I have received them.
    Mr. LAWSON: This is very important to the House. Will the right hon. Gentleman put the House in possession of the facts as to points of difference that there have been between him and the board on this matter?
    Mr. BROWN: I do not know of any points of difference to be reported to the House.
    Mr. SHINWELLasked the Prime Minister whether, in order that hon. Members may have an opportunity of moving Amendments to the proposed Unemployment Assistance Board Regulations, he will amend existing legislation

    585
    and present the said Regulations to the House in the form of a Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): No, Sir. I do not consider it necessary to propose any change in the procedure which was approved by Parliament in 1934.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that there is a feeling, even among hon. Members of his own side, that a mere acceptance or rejection Motion would not permit of a free expression of opinion and a decision as to possible modifications of the contemplated Regulations? Would it not be desirable to promote amending legislation to enable us to have that free expression of opinion?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That is, I quite agree, a point, and it was a point discussed in 1934, but it would be impossible to do what the hon. Member suggests without altering the law. The alteration of the law and putting it into another form could not possibly be done now, and would at any time lead to a very great consumption of Parliamentary time.
    Mr. SHINWELL: If that presents the only difficult in the right hon. Gentleman's mind, would it not meet the general desire of the House to delay the presentation of the Regulations, in spite of the keen demand that there has been for them, in order to meet what even the right hon. Gentleman appears to regard as a good point?
    The PRIME MINISTER: One cannot always give way to good points. I agree that it is a point, but, on the whole, the procedure that is being taken did commend itself to the House in 1934. With regard to dates, although I am not prepared to go into it, having answered the question on the Paper, I can assure the House that we are doing all we can to expedite the date which I understand, has already been given, but beyond that I can say nothing this afternoon.
    Mr. ATTLEE: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that since 1934 we have had Regulations produced and that the stiffness of those Regulations and the fact that they could not be altered led to an enormous waste of Parliamentary time, to the withdrawal of the Regulations, to the introduction of the Stand-
    586
    still Order, and months of work for the Ministry of Labour?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I hope that the time will not prove to have been wasted.
    Mr. LAWSON: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are really many Members, irrespective of party, who are conscious of the fact that we shall be in the same difficulty on this occasion when the Regulations are discussed as we were last time, because one of the causes of the breakdown was the fact that they could not be amended?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I hope not, but in those circumstances it is surely better to await the Regulations.
    Mr. GALLACHER: Is the Prime Minister prepared to consider postponing the holiday in order to provide adequate opportunities for discussing the Regulations?

    ASSISTANCE BOARD (REPORTS).
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Minister of Labour whether he will request the Unemployment Assistance Board to publish in its future annual reports a statement showing the average amount of benefit per recipient in respect of each of its areas?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I will bring the hon. Member's suggestion to the notice of the board.
    Mr. BENJAMIN SMITH: Will the right hon. Gentleman also bring to the notice of the hoard that there is a custom now prevailing that, in order to circumvent the provisions of the Act, the Government themselves are sending to the board their observations before they are reported to this House?
    Mr. BROWN: That has nothing to do with the question.

    STATISTICS.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Minister of Labour what is the unemployment rate in the Hindley, Horwich, and Westhoughton townships, respectively, at the last available date and for the three corresponding previous dates; and the unemployment rate similarly for Aspull and Blackrod separately from the areas in which such figures are usually merged?
    Mr. E. BROWN: As the reply includes a table of figures I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. DAVIES: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the figures for Blackrod and Aspull for the last available date in order that we may check the statement made that in Aspull, with 7,000 inhabitants, the unemployed rate has been for the last five years 75 per cent. of the insured population?
    Mr. BROWN: As the hon. Member knows, there are no exchanges there, but

    —

    25th May, 1936.

    20th May, 1935.

    14th May, 1934.

    22nd May, 1933.

    Per cent.

    Per cent.

    Per cent.

    Per cent.

    Hindley … …

    39·9

    41·0

    39·1

    41·8

    Horwich … …

    12·0

    15·0

    17·1

    21·0

    Westhoughton … …

    31·8

    32·4

    31·1

    22·6

    There is no Employment Exchange at Aspull or Blackrod, and corresponding percentages cannot, therefore, be calculated for these areas.
    Mr. W. JOSEPH STEWARTasked the Minister of Labour the number of Persons unemployed in Durham County for one, two, three, four and five years, respectively; and also the number of Persons married and unmarried, that have been transferred from the area since 1931?
    Mr. BROWN: As the reply is necessarily somewhat long, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    Among persons applying for insurance benefit or unemployment allowances at 25th May, 1936, at Employment Exchanges in the county of Durham (including the county boroughs) 13,842 had been continuosly on the register for one year but less than two years, 7,656 for two but less than three years, 6,355 for three but less than four years, 6,619 for four but less than five years, and 7,792 for five years or more. Corresponding figures are not available in respect of Persons registered as unemployed, who were not applicants for insurance benefit or unemployment allowances. Of the persons who had been on the register for extended periods a proportion, which will increase as the period on the register increases, will have
    perhaps he will read the answer, which is a full one, and discuss it with me.
    Following is the reply:
    The available statistics relate to Employment Exchange areas and not to local authority areas. Among insured persons, aged 16–64, within the areas of the Hindley, Horwich, and Westhoughton exchanges the proportions unemployed at 25th May, 1936, and at the corresponding dates in the three previous years were as shown below:
    had one or more short spells of employment, lasting not more than three days each, during such periods. During the period from the end of 1931 to the end of April, 1936, 11,648 men and 4,633 women from Durham were placed by the Department in employment in other areas. Figures showing separately the number of married and unmarried persons transferred are not available.

    ASSISTANCE.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Minister of Labour the practice of the Unemployment Assistance Board in cases when an allowance to an applicant is based upon contributions by members of a household to the household income and such contributions are, in fact, withheld?
    Mr. BROWN: In accordance with the provisions of the Unemployment Assistance Act, the determinations of the board must be based on the resources of the members of the household, with due regard to their personal requirements. To attempt to base the assessments on the contributions made by members of the household would not only be contrary to the provisions of the Act but would require an intolerable system of inquisition and would result in great unfairness of treatment as between one case and another.
    Mr. WHITE: Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries into

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    this matter to see whether there is not hardship occurring in cases where assessments are made and not carried out?
    Mr. BROWN: If the hon. Member has any particular case he can bring to my notice, I should be very glad to call the attention of the board to it.

    SPECIAL AREAS (MEDICAL COMFORTS DEPOTS).
    Miss WARDasked the Minister of Labour whether any arrangement has yet been come to for the establishment of medical comforts depots in the areas where they are urgently required?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I am informed that the Commissioner for the Special Areas (England and Wales) has not yet received the proposal for a modified scheme to which reference was made in the reply given to the hon. Lady on 14th May.
    Miss WARD: Would it not be possible for my right hon. Friend to communicate with the Commissioner with a view to hurrying up this matter in view of the fact that it is a year since the question was raised?
    Mr. BROWN: My hon. Friend can take it for granted that the Commissioner is as keen on this matter as she is.

    INSURANCE (NON-MANUAL WORKERS).
    Mr. LECKIEasked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered a resolution submitted to him by the National Federation of Professional Workers urgently requesting the Government to extend the provision of unemployment insurance so as to include non-manual workers whose earnings do not exceed £400 per annum, as recommended by the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee in February last; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I received the day before yesterday the resolution to which my hon. Friend refers. I am afraid that it is not yet possible to make any statement as to the Government's intentions in this matter.
    Mr. LAWSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when there will be a possibility of getting a statement from him?
    Mr. BROWN: Not at the moment.
    Mr. LAWSON: Has the right hon. Gentleman received the report?
    Mr. BROWN: It is being examined by the various Departments which are concerned in the matter.

    PROPOSED TRADING ESTATE, DURHAM.
    Mr. SHINWELLasked the Minister of Labour what progress has been made with the proposed trading estate in the Durham area?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I have nothing to add, at present, to the answers of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy, given to the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. W. Joseph Stewart) on 23rd June, and to the hon. Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) on 25th June.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the progress so far made is of very little consequence, and is it not time that he took steps to expedite the proceedings of the responsible body in this matter?
    Mr. BROWN: The hon. Member may rest assured that on the responsible body there are some of those who are most keenly in favour of this idea, and that there will not be one moment's unavoidable delay.

    NATIVE LABOUR CONVENTION.
    Mr. BANFIELDasked the Minister of Labour whether he can give any information on the convention adopted by the International Labour Conference providing for the control and supervision of certain forms of recruitment of native labour; whether His Majesty's representative supported this convention; and when it is proposed that it shall be ratified?
    Mr. E. BROWN: When the authentic texts of the various draft conventions adopted at the recent Session of the International Labour Conference are available they will be presented in the form of a Command Paper. The attitude of His Majesty's Government towards each draft convention will subsequently be determined and set forth in a White Paper. The delegates representing His Majesty's Government at the recent Session of the Conference voted in favour of the adoption of the draft convention to which the hon. Member refers.
    Mr. BANFIELD: When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be able to issue a White Paper?
    Mr. BROWN: I cannot say. It depends upon how the work is done.

    PRISON DIETARY.
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will place in the Library of this House any evidence furnished him in recent years by prison medical officers showing the improvements in physique and health observable in the prisoners in gaols in England and Wales as a result of the superior dietary in the prisons over the dietary obtainable by the working classes outside the prisons?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): Prison medical officers are not in a position to make any such comparison and I know of no evidence which is available or could be obtained on the point. It must be remembered that the number of persons received in prison represents only a small fraction of the population, that a large proportion of those received are only detained for short periods, and that if improvement takes place in the health of a prisoner, this may be due to a variety of causes.

    JUVENILE OFFENDERS (FINGER PRINTS).
    Sir ROBERT YOUNGasked the Home Secretary whether he is now in possession of detailed information from the several police forces regarding the procedure of taking the finger prints of juveniles convicted at juvenile courts; and whether he has come to any decision concerning the uniform conditions under which the finger prints of juvenile offenders should be taken in the future?
    Mr. LLOYD: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has received and considered the views of representative chief officers of police and having regard to their experience and the statistical information which is available regarding juvenile crime, he is satisfied that it would be in the public interest that finger prints of juveniles over the age of 14 should be taken on arrest for offences such as shopbreaking,
    592
    housebreaking and larceny, and he proposes to advise chief officers of police to that effect.
    Mr. GIBBINS: Is the Minister aware that before juveniles are convicted, finger prints are taken, even when on the evidence there is no case against them? May I have an answer to that question?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member's question raises a different point.

  TRANSPORT.

    MOTORING OFFENCES (FINES).
    Mr. McENTEEasked the Home Secretary the amount of the fines imposed on motorists for motoring offences in England and Wales for a year to the latest available date; the amount of the fines similarly imposed within the Metropolitan police area; and for what purposes are such fines allocated and in what proportion?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Simon): The information asked for in the first two parts of the question will be found in the return for 1935 which was presented to Parliament on 25th May. These fines are payable to the Exchequer.

    ROAD SCHEMES.
    Captain STRICKLANDasked the Minister of Transport the names of the highway authorities whose schemes for the five-year road programme, estimated to amount in the aggregate to £33,520,000, have been approved for Road Fund grant, and the estimated amount of the schemes of each authority?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Hore-Belisha): As the answer to this question would involve giving the names of 525 highway authorities, I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press for the publication in the OFFICIAL REPORT of information which would be of little general interest.
    Captain STRICKLAND: Is the House to understand from that answer that 525 local authorities have had their applications granted within the limits of £33,000,000?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Certainly.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether

    593
    17 county councils have told him that they cannot afford to carry out the programme because of the burden on the rates?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Yes, Sir, but my general experience is that county councils start by informing me that they cannot afford it, and subsequently find they can.
    Mr. H. G. WILLIAMS: Can my right hon. Friend say how many highway authorities have not yet had their schemes approved?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: A very small percentage. I could not say off-hand what it is.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Do I understand that the programme amounts to £100,000,000?

    FORTH AND TAY ROAD BRIDGES.
    Mr. KENNEDYasked the Minister of Transport (1) whether he has considered the memorandum prepared by the Forth Road Bridge Promotion Committee, dated May last; and whether, in view of the urgent need of improvement in the means of road transport and industrial development in the eastern counties of Scotland, he can state when a Government decision on the project is likely to be announced;
    (2) whether any decision has been reached by the Government regarding the proposed Forth and Tay road bridges?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I can add nothing to the reply which I gave on this subject yesterday to the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Mathers).
    Mr. KENNEDY: Is it not a fact that the Forth Road-bridge Promotion Committee submitted in May last a full report regarding traffic possibilities, and as this committee is representative of the local authorities and interests affected, is it not time that the Government made up their mind about their policy in this matter?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The right hon. Gentleman would be the last person to suggest that we should accept this authoritative information supplied to us by a voluntary committee. I am waiting for the official case to be presented by the responsible highway authorities.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: In view of the answer just given, will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to meet a deputation representing those highway authorities who are directly interested in the progress of the scheme?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The local authorities concerned are in constant touch with me and have free access to my Department. They are preparing their case and will present it in due course, and if it gives rise to argument I shall be prepared to meet them.
    Mr. GALLACHER: Has the right hon. Gentleman notified the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he will be making a call upon the raided Road Fund for this purpose?

    LEWES ASSIZES (PRISONERS).
    Mr. DAYasked the Home Secretary in what manner prisoners who are being conveyed from Portsmouth prison to Lewes Assizes are compelled to make the rail journey which involves a change at Brighton station?
    Sir J. SIMON: Prisoners awaiting trial at Lewes Assizes are not confined in Portsmouth prison.
    Mr. DAY: There is a transfer of prisoners from Portsmouth to Lewes; and can the right hon. Gentleman say why the men are transferred by rail, handcuffed and with chains through the handcuffs?
    Sir J. SIMON: Unless my information is mistaken, the hon. Member is five years behind the time. Portsmouth prison has not been used for prisoners awaiting trial since 1931.
    Mr. DAY: I said "from Portsmouth." I did not say "from Portsmouth prison."
    Sir J. SIMON: If the hon. Member will look at the question on the Paper he will see that in it he refers to Portsmouth prison.

  EDUCATION.

    SECONDARY SCHOOLS (DONCASTER).
    Mr. SHORTasked the President of the Board of Education (1)

    595
    what is the total number of places now provided by the Doncaster Education Committee for secondary education;
    (2) what is the total number of places allocated to the West Riding Council in the Doncaster secondary schools?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Oliver Stanley): On 31st March, 1935, the last date for which complete figures are available, there were 1,165 pupils attending the two secondary schools in Doncaster, of whom 514 came from the area of the West Riding education authority. Under the agreement which at present exists between the two authorities, the West Riding authority may send up to 250 pupils to each of the two Doncaster secondary schools.

    ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS (PLAYGROUNDS).
    Mr. DAYasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the fact that the playing grounds in many of the elementary schools, especially in the poorer districts, are closed after school hours, and on Saturdays and during the holidays; and will he consider advising all education authorities to keep their school playgrounds open for this purpose in order to provide better playing facilities for the children?
    Mr. STANLEY: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on 25th May to the hon. and gallant Member for Chatham (Captain Plugge), a copy of which I am sending to the hon. Member.

    CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS (SUPPLY AGENCY).
    Mr. PARKERasked the President of the Board of Education whether it was upon the authority of his Department that a recommendation was made to the governors of the British Film Institute for a company, known as Educational and General Services for Cinema and Radio, Limited, as being a body suitable to act as a centralised agency for the supply of films and cinematograph apparatus to local education authorities and schools?
    Mr. STANLEY: No, Sir. No such recommendation has been made to the governors of the Film Institute by my Department.

    INSPECTORS (AGE).
    Mr. PARKERasked the President of the Board of Education at what age candidates for the post of His Majesty's inspector of elementary schools are too old to be considered for an appointment?
    Mr. STANLEY: Candidates for appointment as His Majesty's inspector of elementary schools should normally be below the age of 45, and no appointments are made above the age of 49.

    DEAF CHILDREN (SPECIAL SCHOOLS).
    Mr. VIANTasked the President of the Board of Education whether he has considered the representations from a number of education authorities expressing the view that the compulsory age for the entry of children to special schools for the deaf should be altered from seven years to five years of age; and is he prepared to adopt this proposal?
    Mr. STANLEY: I have received representations on this subject from a number of local education authorities. As stated in my answer of 21st May last to the hon. Member for Neath (Sir W. Jenkins), I am prepared to consider the introduction of legislation for this purpose if I am assured that such legislation would be entirely uncontroversial and would have the full support of the local education authorities and of the organised bodies concerned.

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
    Mr. LESLIEasked the Minister of Health how many maternity and child welfare committees provide milk and nourishment free for necessitous, expectant, and nursing mothers; and how many provide dinners for mothers?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): In England and Wales, milk is supplied free, or at less than cost price, to necessitous expectant mothers by 402 maternity and child welfare authorities, and to necessitous nursing mothers by 400 of these authorities. A large proportion of these authorities also supply other foods for necessitous expectant and nursing mothers. Meals for mothers are provided at dining centres by 41 authorities.
    Miss WILKINSON: Is it the policy of the right hon. Gentleman's Department to urge on authorities which are not providing these services the necessity of doing so?
    Sir K. WOOD: We always endeavour to induce authorities to act in the way suggested.

    TUBERCULOSIS (DURHAM AND NORTHUMBERLAND).
    Mr. LESLIEasked the Minister of Health whether there has been any improvement in the death rate from tuberculosis in the case of females between the ages of 15 and 25 in Durham and Northumberland, as contained in the report of the chief medical officer of the Ministry of Health for the year 1933, which then showed the death rate to be 152 per 100,000; and whether he can give the figures for 1931 to 1935?
    Sir K. WOOD: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    Yes, Sir. For the years 1931 to 1935 the death-rates from pulmonary tuberculosis amongst females aged 15 to 25 years per 100,000 population in the counties of Durham and Northumberland, including the associated county boroughs, were as follows:

    1931

    …

    …

    …

    161

    1932

    …

    …

    …

    163

    1933

    …

    …

    …

    155

    1934

    …

    …

    …

    144

    1935

    …

    …

    …

    131

    The rate of 152 referred to by the hon. Member, which was for the period 1926 to 1930, related only to the two administrative counties, and I am unable to give rates for later years for the administrative counties separately from the associated county boroughs.

    MENTAL HOSPITAL, SWITHDOWN ROAD, LIVERPOOL.
    Mr. LOGANasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to a document issued by the Liverpool City Council calling attention to the overcrowded state of the mental unit at the Swithdown Road Hospital, Liverpool; and what action, if any, does he intend to take to end this congestion?
    Sir K. WOOD: I am aware of the facts to which the hon. Member refers. The overcrowding at this institution is due to the general shortage of mental hospital accommodation in the area served by the Lancashire Mental Hospitals Board. Schemes are already in progress for the provision of additional accommodation, which should relieve this congestion.
    Mr. LOGAN: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it right that boys and girls should be certified for a fortnight to keep them within the law for detention, and does he not think these cases ought to be lodged as casuals; and does he think it right that this condition of things should go on for seven years and the place be overcrowded simply because of the expense that may be incurred by the authorities in putting up the necessary accommodation?
    Sir K. WOOD: If those were the facts, I should much regret them, but I am glad to say that steps are now being taken which I hope will meet the difficulty.
    Mr. E. J. WILLIAMS: Could not hon. Members opposite have their attention drawn to these facts?

    REGIONAL ADVISORY WATER COMMITTEE.
    Mr. LEVYasked the Minister of Health how many regional advisory water committees have been formed; and what work they have done?
    Sir K. WOOD: Eight committees have been formed—for South-West Lancashire, Sherwood Area, Isle of Wight, West Riding of Yorkshire, North, Central and South-East Lancashire, Chesire and North-West Derbyshire, West Midlands and East Sussex. The functions of the committees are to survey the needs and resources of their regions and to advise how future needs can best be met. The South-West Lancashire Committee have completed their survey and find that the time has not yet arrived for the provision of additional resources for their region. The Sherwood Area Committee have issued a report embodying a scheme of allocation of water resources of the region between the various authorities. The remaining committees are actively engaged on the surveys which necessarily involve much work and take time.
    Mr. LEVY: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that very comprehensive

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    reply, and while also congratulating him, may I ask when he expects the report of the committee that is now sitting?
    Sir K. WOOD: I understand the committee is engaged in drafting its report.

    DENTAL TREATMENT.
    Mr. PALINGasked the Minister of Health what provision has been made for dental treatment between the school-leaving age and the time when boy and girl contributors qualify for the additional benefit (dental) under the National Health Insurance Act?
    Sir K. WOOD: There is no special statutory provision for the dental treatment of the children referred to by the hon. Member. They are entitled equally with other members of the community to take advantage of the facilities provided by the local authorities as part of their public health or public assistance services.

    FLOODING, MERSEYSIDE.
    Mr. LOGANasked the Minister of Health whether he is now in a position to give any information in regard to floodings at Litherland, Seaforth and Bootle; and whether compensation will be paid for damage done in homes affected?
    Sir K. WOOD: The inquiries I have made generally confirm but do not enable me to add to the description given by the hon. Member in the question put by him on 25th June last. I have no information as to the matter raised in the second part of the question.
    Mr. LOGAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only last week there were further floods; that in one place there was a trench 200 yards long and that a man actually lost his life in the public street as a result of the flooding; and on the ground of health alone, apart from any other question, is it not necessary that some action should be taken in the matter? I ask the Minister to get in touch with Sir George Etherton, a very able county council administrator there, in order to see that this drainage system is made effective.
    Sir K. WOOD: I think the hon. Gentleman can trust this authority to do their duty in the matter.
    Mr. LOGAN: But is the Minister aware that this has been going on since Bootle
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    was an urban district, and that now there are 100,000 people there; and is it not possible for the Minister to see that there is a proper drainage system there, instead of a system under which people may be drowned in the public streets as a result of flooding?
    Sir K. WOOD: The hon. Gentleman knows that I regret the circumstances, but he also knows that I have no jurisdiction in the matter.

    DISTRICT BANK, MANCHESTER (PENSIONS).
    Mr. E. J. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that certain employés of the District Bank, Manchester, are paying voluntary contributions to the National Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Pensions scheme, but that the bank are preventing this and retaining these voluntary contributions in their own bank pensions fund; and will he intervene to prevent these persons being prevented from obtaining the benefits of the State pensions scheme?
    Sir K. WOOD: The matter has not previously been brought to my notice. If the hon. Member will inform me of the names and addresses of employés concerned, I will have inquiry made and communicate with him when I have received a report.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Will the Minister also inquire whether the District Bank in this connection is not creating a precedent which does not apply to other banking institutions of this country or even, to the Civil Service?
    Sir K. WOOD: Perhaps the hon. Member would send me a full statement of the case and I will inquire into it.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: If the right hon. Gentleman finds that this allegation. is well-founded, will be make it clear to the bank that this is a violation of the Act of Parliament?
    Sir K. WOOD: I think I had better ascertain the facts first.

  HOUSING.

    CEMENT (PRICES).
    Mr. WOODSasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been

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    called to the large and increasing profits made by manufacturers of cement; and whether he will take steps to ensure that competitive prices are secured in connection with the slum clearance schemes now under consideration?
    Sir K. WOOD: It is the duty of the Prices of Building Materials Committee to report particularly as to the extent to which in any case the price of building materials appears to be unduly high by reason of the operation of any trade combination, trust, or agreement. I understand that, although they have had cement prices under review, they have not found it necessary to make any such report. In December last cement manufacturers announced their decision to reduce cement prices by an average of not less than 2s. per ton throughout the country, partly in view of Government expenditure on, housing and slum clearance, and this reduction is now in force.
    Mr. WOODS: Is the Minister aware that even when the reduction to which he has referred has taken place, the cement companies which have a monopoly, are making substantial profits; and that they could sell at lower prices as is demonstrated by the fact that cement of similar quality to that sold on the English market, is exported to Continental users at a price which is shillings per ton cheaper than the price charged to the home users?
    Sir K. WOOD: This matter was recently inquired into by the appropriate committee, and, as the hon. Gentleman realises, it is a matter for them.
    Mr. LOUIS SMITH: Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that the price level of cement compares very favourably with that of other building materials in this country, especially having regard to the increase in wages which has taken place?
    Mr. WOODS: Is the Minister satisfied that the committee to which he has referred is doing its work satisfactorily, in view of the facts which I have given him?
    Sir K. WOOD: I think the committee is a representative one and is carrying out its duties to the best of its ability.

    WARRINGTON.
    Mr. W. A. ROBINSONasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware
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    that the district auditor has vetoed the reduction of rates of interest on loans made under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts by the Warrington Corporation; and will he assist the corporation to obtain a conversion of the loan period to 60 years or thereabouts, and then to reborrow with a view to taking over and letting the houses on reduced rents where mortgagees are suffering hardship and unable to pay the present high rate of interest?
    Sir K. WOOD: As regards the first part of the question, I am aware of the action taken by the district auditor, which is in accordance with the legal position; as regards the second part, I have not received an application from the corporation, and without knowledge of all the circumstances I am unable to say whether the suggestion of the hon. Member could be adopted.

    RODE, SOMERSET.
    Mrs. TATEasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that there is a serious shortage of houses in the village of Rode, Somerset, and that plans were put forward for the erection of five houses in this village and turned down by the Warminster and Westbury Rural District Council owing to the water supply being inadequate; and can he say when the serious conditions with regard to housing and water in this village are likely to be rectified?
    Sir K. WOOD: I am aware of the problem and have already 'approved in principle a scheme for the provision of water for three parishes, including Rode, and sanctioning the preliminary expenditure for the sinking of a bore hole. This is the first step towards meeting this recognised housing difficulty.

    NORTH EASTERN HOUSING ASSOCIATION.
    Miss WARDasked the Minister of Health whether he will draw the attention of local authorities to the opportunities for the relief of the burden on the rates which are afforded by the North Eastern Housing Association?
    Sir K. WOOD: I have already on a number of occasions drawn attention to this matter, but if my hon. Friend has any particular district in mind, I will have inquiries made.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Could not the burden of rates be eased in this particular area if the facilities offered to the North Eastern Housing Association were offered to the local councils?
    Sir K. WOOD: I think it would be better if hon. Members would support that association, which would do very much to relieve the housing difficulties in that area.
    Miss WILKINSON: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the Government, who are so much concerned about economy, should use the experience of the local authorities who have it at their disposal, instead of setting up an entirely different and expensive association to do the same job?
    Sir K. WOOD: No, I do not think so, and I wish hon. Members would realise that this is a very fine opportunity in this area of getting houses at an unexampled rate, and under exceptional financial conditions.

    OLD AGE PENSIONS.
    Sir R. YOUNGasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Mrs. Alice Johnson, of New Farm, Letton Bridge, Cheshire, applied for an old age pension in October, 1934, and that a pension has now been granted from July, 1935; and will he state the reason why the pension was not granted from the date of application or from the date of her 70th birthday?
    Sir K. WOOD: I received an appeal against a decision of the Congleton rural district pension sub-committee of 6th January, 1936, disallowing the claim to a pension made by Mrs. Alice Johnson on 8th July, 1935. After careful investigation I reversed the decision of the pension sub-committee and allowed a pension. The date from which a pension commences to accrue is determined by the Statute, and in this case was 12th July, 1935, i.e., the first Friday following the receipt of the claim. I understand that a previous claim by Mrs. Johnson was withdrawn on 27th February, 1935.
    Sir R. YOUNG: In view of the fact that she applied for her pension in October, 1934, and that her husband died
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    at Easter, 1935; surely she should be entitled to her pension from the time when her husband died?
    Sir K. WOOD: If the hon. Member will send any further particulars, I will certainly examine them.

    RATING ARREARS, SOUTH WALES.
    Sir WALDRON SMITHERSasked the Minister of Health, whether, in view of the fact that allowances are based upon the rate levied for the year in which they are written off and not upon the rate levied at the time the arrears became due, he is aware of the anomalous position created in South Wales exemplified by the arrears and allowances of the Nantyglo and Blaina Urban District Council, where the county council is compelled to grant allowances at the higher rate; and what action does he propose to take to prevent the possibility of an urban district council making a profit out of arrears?
    Sir K. WOOD: I assume that my hon. Friend has in mind the operation of the precepting system, though I cannot accept his description of its possible effects on the financial relations of the authorities concerned. The circumstances of the case to which he refers were quite exceptional and do not, in my view, necessitate amendment of the statutory provisions or the rules made thereunder.
    Sir W. SMITHERS: Does not the Minister see that the possibility is there and can be exploited?
    Sir K. WOOD: I think my hon. Friend will appreciate that the circumstances were exceptional.

    PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, MONMOUTHSHIRE.
    Sir W. SMITHERSasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the illegality of the payments made on the recommendation of relief committees in the county of Monmouthshire on 225 occasions when a quorum was not present during the year ended 31st March last, he will draw the attention of the auditor to this matter?
    Sir K. WOOD: Without expressing any opinion on the question of legality, I have

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    no doubt that, in view of the publicity given to this matter by my hon. Friend, the point will not escape the auditor's attention.
    Sir W. SMITHERS: Is it not the duty of my right hon. Friend, as he is in charge of the local government of this country, to call the attention of the auditor to this matter?
    Sir K. WOOD: I must dissent from the view that I am in charge of the local government of this country.
    Mr. JAMES GRIFFITHS: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that in view of the extraordinary difficulties in South Wales, this House owes a debt of gratitude to the public authorities there for the way in which they are doing their work?
    Sir K. WOOD: That is another matter, but I should be glad if in that area every effort was made to form quorums for the conduct of important business.

    GERMANY (AIR ARMAMENTS).
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that he was misled about the rate of German re-armament in the air, he can now make a statement as to the sources of his information; and whether he is satisfied as to the reliability of his present information?
    In putting this question, may I say that we are all glad, on personal grounds, to see the right hon. Gentleman in his place? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
    The PRIME MINISTER: There appears to be some misunderstanding about the statement which I made in the course of the Debate in May of last year. It is not the case that there has been any difference between myself and the Air Ministry as to our earlier estimates of the rate of German re-armament in the air having been falsified by subsequent acceleration. A reference to the statement made in another place by Lord Londonderry on behalf of the Government at the same time as my statement in the House of Commons shows that both of us then explained that the German acceleration had been greater than we and our advisers had anticipated. There is therefore no foundation for any supposition that I disregarded warnings
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    given me by my advisers in 1934 about the rate of acceleration of German air armament. In saying that we had been misled, I certainly intended no reflection upon any Department or individual, and if such an impression has gained credence, I am glad to correct it. In reply to the last part of the question, it is always more difficult to obtain accurate information about a country in which no estimates for defence are published. The Government, however, are satisfied that the information at present in their possession, which is derived from a variety of sources, represents the actual state of affairs as far as can be accurately obtained.
    Mr. GARRO JONES: Would the Prime Minister tell the House how it happened that if Lord Londonderry was so well apprised of the rate of German rearmament, he was yet so reluctant to accept the proposals before the League of Nations for the abolition of air bombing?

    NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
    Mr. PALINGasked the Minister of Health how many patients have been treated under the National Health Insurance Additional Benefit (Dental) Act since its introduction; and what proportion of these people have been made edentulous?
    Sir K. WOOD: Figures are not available as to the number of insured persons who have received help from their approved societies towards the cost of dental treatment. Where dental benefit is given to an insured person the treatment must be such as to secure dental fitness.

    DURHAM RURAL DISTRICT (BOUNDARIES).
    Mr. RITSONasked the Minister of Health whether he will grant another boundaries review in the Durham Rural District Council, with reference to the boundaries of Broom parish in particular?
    Sir K. WOOD: No, Sir. I have already explained to the hon. Member in correspondence that the decision to alter the boundaries of this parish on the lines proposed by the Durham County Council was made by my predecessor after a public inquiry at which the parties interested

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    were fully heard, and that the course suggested in the question is impracticable.
    Mr. RITSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in spite of the fact that his predecessor agreed to these things, there has been serious trouble to the authorities mentioned and that there is objection to being transferred to another area which is geographically in a different situation?
    Sir K. WOOD: I regret, of course, that there are difficulties, but the hon. Gentleman will realise that after a public inquiry has been held, when all the parties interested have put their case, there really must be some finality.
    Mr. RITSON: Would not the right hon. Gentleman hear them by way of deputation? They are surely entitled to be heard?
    Sir K. WOOD: They have already been heard. The parties have put their case, and a decision has been given.

    THE "QUEEN MARY" (SISTER SHIP.)
    Mr. McENTEEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can give an assurance that before giving any financial assistance to the Cunard White Star Shipping Company for building a sister ship to the "Queen Mary" he will see that all reputable British firms have an opportunity of quoting for the supply of plywood or other veneered wood panelling, and that preference is given to Empire-grown timber?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): I have been assured by the company that, in the carrying out of any contract that may be placed for the building of a sister ship, it will be their endeavour, as in the case of the "Queen Mary," to secure that British materials are used to the maximum extent possible.
    Mr. McENTEE: In view of the fact that practically all the plywood and other panelling work on the "Queen Mary" went to a German firm, and that the best firms in this country were not permitted to quote, will the right hon. Gentleman see that they get that opportunity on the next occasion?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I cannot agree that the best firms were not permitted to quote, but I believe it is a fact that the prices of British firms were raised in comparison with what they had quoted previously, and that in the end their prices were something like 80 per cent. higher than those of their competitors.

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY (PROCESSIONS).
    Mr. DAYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proposals have been put forward or suggestions made by the Inland Revenue authorities or the responsible Department concerned for the purpose of levying Entertainments Duty on the proceeds from the sale of seats sold in connection with royal or similar processions; and will he consider the appointment of a departmental committee to examine the same?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: With regard to the first part of the question, I am not aware that any such proposals or suggestions have been made; the second part of the question does not therefore arise.

    TOBACCO DITTY (DRAWBACK).
    Mr. LEONARDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take immediate steps to reduce the rates of drawback on foreign tobacco by 1d. per pound and increase those for Empire tobacco by 1d. per pound, so that the advantage of £233,000 which accrued to manufacturers over the past financial year, in so far as they used foreign instead of Empire tobacco, shall accrue to them in future only in so far as they use Empire instead of foreign tobacco?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on 27th May last on this subject.
    Mr. LEONARD: Does not the right hon. Gentleman recollect that that answer indicates that it is being considered; and is he appreciative of the fact that the Treasury, through the medium of the Colonial Office, indicated to Empire growers that the points referred to were being considered and acknowledged, but that their observations in 1934 had been sent along too late for consideration in that year's Budget,

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    and that since that time Empire growers have been receiving for manufacturing loss less than 9½ per cent. whereas foreign growers have been receiving over 10½ per cent.?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: In the answer to which I refer the hon. Member was told that we could not introduce legislation for this particular point by itself, but that if the question of drawback came into general consideration that particular point would be noted.

    SILVER LINE, LIMITED.
    Mr. WHITEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of 5 per cent. guaranteed debenture stock of the Silver Line, Limited, issued under the Trade Facilities Act, which is still outstanding; whether the Government have had to implement their guarantee in connection with the issue; and, if so, to what extent?
    Mr. HOLDSWORTHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the effective control of the Silver Line, Limited, whose 5 per cent. debenture stock is guaranteed under the Trade Facilities Act, is in the hands of American or English owners?
    Mr. DAVID ADAMSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) the total sum owing to the Treasury by the Silver Line, Limited, London, for advances under the Trade Facilities Acts in which the Treasury have been called upon to implement their guarantees;
    (2) whether he is aware that the Silver Line, Limited, London, is largely owned in the United States of America; and that it is operating vessels from the East Coast of America to the Far East and the Cape of Good Hope in competition with British lines and inflicting serious loss upon them by rate cutting; and whether he will consider realising as large a proportion as possible of the indebtedness of this company by the sale of these vessels in order to relieve British shipping companies of what is really foreign competition financed by the British Treasury?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It has been the invariable practice to treat as confidential details concerning particular guarantees under the Trade Facilities Acts, if they
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    relate to companies engaged in active business, and are outside the scope of the information which the Acts themselves require to be published. I understand that while a substantial part of the share capital of Silver Line, Limited, is held by United States interests this does not amount to voting control. The ships, moreover, are British manned. The hon. Member for Consett (Mr. David Adams) is under a misapprehension in speaking of them as constituting foreign competition. As regards the general issues raised, I would add that in this, as in other like cases, the Treasury will continue to be guided by the advice of the Trade Facilities Advisory Committee.
    Mr. DAVID ADAMS: Is the Minister aware that the total capital of the Silver Line Limited, was £925,985, and that there was held in the United States—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I take it, Mr. Speaker, that I am in order?
    Mr. SPEAKER: It seems as if the hon. Member is reading his Supplementary Question.
    Mr. ADAMS: I am giving the figures supplied by Somerset House showing that the major portion of the capital of this concern is held in the United States.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That is not the fact.
    Mr. WHITE: Will not the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiry into this matter and find out where, in fact, the real control of this company does lie, and to see whether it may not be necessary to take further steps to protect the Treasury from loss and English companies from serious competition?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have made full inquiries, and I am satisfied that my statement is correct that the holding of the United States interest does not constitute voting control. As regards possible loss to the Treasury, the hon. Member may rest assured that that is having very careful consideration.
    Mr. THURTLE: Will not the Chancellor answer that part of the question which asked whether the Government had had to implement any of those guarantees, and, if so, to what amount?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Gentleman means to ask whether we have sustained any losses, the answer is, "No,

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    not up to the present time," but the matter is not yet ended.
    Mr. BENJAMIN SMITH: Is it not a fact that the Minister who was then Minister for the Board of Trade has since become a director of this company?
    Mr. DAVID ADAMS: Am I in order—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not know what the hon. Member was proposing to say.
    Mr. ADAMS: I want to ask the Minister whether he is aware that the total capital of this concern is £925,985, and that of that capital there was held in the United States of America and Spain—
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is now giving information, and not asking for it.
    Mr. ADAMS—
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member had better put down another question on that point.
    Miss WILKINSON: On a point of Order. Are not we on this side of the House to be protected—[Interruption.] I appeal to you on the part of those who are distinctly nervous when asking questions to know whether we cannot have the protection of the Chair against derisive cheers from the other side?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The House will agree that I always give protection to those who are doing right.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    IMPORT DUTIES ADVISORY COMMITTEE (BARLEY).
    Mr. De CHAIRasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can devise some method whereby Parliament may be allowed to pass judgment upon the findings of the Import Duties Advisory Committee where that committee rejects an application for a duty, as in the case of the barley industry, since the growers are at present denied the right of appeal to Parliament if the Import Duties Advisory Committee rejects their application?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think that it would be desirable to depart from the principle laid down by Parliament
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    in the Import Duties Act, 1932, that proposals for an increase in duty under that Act should only come before the House when the Committee find that a case has been made out.
    Mr. De CHAIR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the extreme difficulty in which Members are placed who pledged themselves at the Election to support agriculture?
    Mr. De CHAIRasked the Minister of Agriculture how soon he anticipates any cash improvement in barley prices as a result of the proposals which the Import Duties Advisory Committee put forward as an alternative to a duty on imported barley?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): I could not, of course, anticipate the future course of prices, but the arrangements recently made under the auspices of the Import Duties Advisory Committee provide barley growers in this country with a firm minimum demand from the brewing and distilling industries, and this should have the effect of strengthening the position of growers as sellers.
    Mr. De CHAIR: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that it is not a minimum demand that the barley growers want but a maximum, and that growers are faced with ruin?

    ENGINEERING AND SHIPBUILDING MATERIAL (IMPORTS).
    Mr. GIBBINSasked the President of the Board of Trade the amount of engineering and shipbuilding material imported from Germany since 1st January, 1936; and to what firms and districts was the material consigned?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): I assume that the hon. Member refers to goods consigned direct to a registered shipbuilding yard within the meaning of Section 11 of the Import Duties Act, 1932, or imported for use in the construction and repair of ships' boilers or propelling machinery under the conditions of Section 9 of the Finance Act, 1934. I regret that the desired information is not available, as particulars of the imports of such goods consigned from individual countries are not compiled.
    Mr. GIBBINS: Is it not possible for the right hon. Gentleman to get this information from the shipbuilding firms? We know the material is coming in.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have already stated what are the difficulties in obtaining information.
    Mr. H. G. WILLIAMS: Do I understand that we can give goods the great privilege of coming in duty free and keep no record?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: That would be a wrong assumption.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Then, if the record is kept, can we have the information?

    GREAT BRITAIN AND FRANCE (TRADE BALANCE).
    Mr. GRANVILLE GIBSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether in view of the increase of imports over exports between this country and France during the first quarter in 1936 compared with the corresponding quarters in 1933, 1934, and 1935, he will press the French Government for a more liberal policy in the administration of the quota system in order to render the balance of trade more equitable?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The movement of the trade balance between this country and France will be kept in mind in any approaches which it may be found desirable to make to the French Government concerning the quota system or other trade matters.
    Mr. GIBSON: In view of the fact that there are repeated increases, season after season, has not the right hon. Gentleman yet made some representations in order to secure that there shall be an increase of quota for this side?

    COTTON SPINNING INDUSTRY (ADVISORY COMMITTEE).
    Mr. SUTCLIFFEasked the President of the Board of Trade the names of those who have been nominated to serve on the advisory committee appointed under the Cotton Spinning Industry Act?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The names of those who have been appointed members of the Advisory Committee established under the Cotton Spinning Industry Act, 1936, are as follow:
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    Mr. H. Boothman, J.P.
    Mr. H. S. Butterworth.
    Mr. T. Dutton.
    Mr. H. A. Enright.
    Sir John H. Grey, J.P.
    Mr. W. M. Wiggins, J.P.
    Mr. Butterworth, Mr. Dutton and Mr. Wiggins have been appointed in accordance with the terms of the Act, after consultation with the Federation of Master Cotton Spinners' Associations, Sir John Grey after consultation with the Joint Committee of Cotton Trade Organisations, and Mr. Boothman after consultation with the United Textile Factory Workers' Association. Mr. Enright has been selected by the Board of Trade as representing the interests of cotton spinners who are neither members of the federation nor members of any association which is affiliated to it.

    MAIL STEAMERS, GREAT BRITAIN AND AUSTRALIA.
    Mr. GIBSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the complaints that the duration of the voyages of mail steamers plying between Great Britain and Australia is unduly long, he will take steps to have the service accelerated?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: My attention has not been called to the complaints referred to.
    Lieut.-Colonel SANDEMAN ALLEN: Does it not depend on the companies whether the voyage is unduly long?
    Mr. GARRO JONES: Is not the President of the Board of Trade aware that many of these P. and O. vessels are constantly steaming at speeds far below their normal cruising rates? The schedule could easily be speeded up if representations were made by him.

    EMPIRE SHIPPING.
    Mr. GRANVILLE GIBSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any steps are in contemplation for adopting an Empire shipping policy, either on the part of His Majesty's Government or in collaboration with the Governments of His Majesty's Dominions, in order to preserve the existence of

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    British Empire services in future in face of foreign state-aided competition?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Every opportunity is taken of discussing with His Majesty's Governments in other parts of the Commonwealth questions affecting the interests of the shipping of the Empire. The particular case of British shipping services across the Pacific is, as my hon. Friend will be aware, under examination by this country and the three Dominions concerned.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    REORGANISATION COMMISSION.
    Miss WARDasked the Secretary for Mines whether any decision has been reached regarding the position of the chairman and members of the Coal Mines Reorganisation Commission, in view of the Government's decision to postpone consideration of the Coal Mines Bill until the autumn?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Captain Crookshank): Sir Ernest Gowers has been informed that the Government attach importance to his continuing to remain available as chairman of the Reorganisation Commission so that, on the passing of the Coal Mines Bill, the work of the commission may be proceeded with effectively. In the meantime it has been arranged that the services of the chairman, in so far as they are not required in connection with the work of the commission under present conditions, shall be made available for such special duties, in relation, for example, to Defence problems, as the Prime Minister may think fit. As regards the position of the other members of the commission, I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. SHINWELL: How does the hon. and gallant Gentleman know that the Coal Mines Bill will be passed?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I did not say that I knew, but I certainly hope that it will.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman not say that the services of Sir Ernest Gowers were being retained in this capacity in contemplation of the passing of the Coal Mines Bill, and how does the hon. and gallant Gentleman know that the Bill will be passed?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I did not say that we know. We can still go on contemplating.
    Miss WILKINSON: Is it proposed that the chairman shall continue on full salary during this period, or is he going to be paid half time for half work?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: He will be paid full salary because he is the full-time chairman of the commission. If at present there is not full work as chairman of the commission, his services will be used whenever suitable by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. THURTLE: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware—
    Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. James Griffiths.

    MINERS' WAGES.
    Mr. J. GRIFFITHSasked the Secretary for Mines (1) what will be the profits accruing to the coalowners under the existing wage agreements in each district on the basis of the existing ratios before the mine-workers will be entitled to any further increase in wages; and whether he proposes to make representations to the coalowners to agree to a revision of the existing ratios so as to enable the miners to secure the further wage increase promised to them;
    (2) what amount of increase per ton in the pit-head prices of coal will be required to enable the miners in the South Wales coalfield to secure an increase above the present wages on the basis of the existing ascertainments provided in the district wages agreement?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I am not in possession of the information necessary to enable me to give the particulars asked for, and in any case the matter is too complex to be dealt with within the limits of question and answer. The machinery of wage regulation is primarily a matter for the industry itself, and I would remind the hon. Member that only a few months have elapsed since the two sides agreed to set up a joint consultative committee for the specific purpose of considering, among other matters of general application to the industry, the general principles applicable to the determination of wages by district agreements. It seems to me most desirable, now that a form of national machinery has been set up, that it should be left alone to do its work.
    Mr. GRIFFITHS: Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman think that he ought to make representations to the owners, now that they have received the powers they ask for, because it is their responsibility to see that these powers are properly used?
    Mr. G. GRIFFITHS—
    Mr. J. GRIFFITHS: May I have an answer to my question?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I was going to answer it with others, but if the hon. Gentleman prefers an answer straight away I suggest that he should carefully study the reply which I have given him, because I think that reply answers this question.
    Mr. G. GRIFFITHS: Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman know that in this last quarter, the coalowners have made a clear profit of 1s. 7½d. per ton, or over £4,500,000?

    STATISTICS (SMITH WALES).
    Mr. J. GRIFFITHSasked the Secretary for Mines what percentage of the total output of coal produced in South Wales in the 12 months ended 31st December, 1935, was sold inland and what percentage was sold export; and the average prices realised by the colliery company for each ton of coal sold inland and export, respectively?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: The output of saleable coal in South Wales and Monmouth during 1935 was 35,025,110 tons and the quantity shipped abroad, either as cargo or bunkers, was 18,388,824 tons or 52.5 per cent. of the total output; 2,414,000 tons approximately were used for mine consumption and miners' coal, leaving a balance of 14,222,286 tons, which represents inland sales, except so far as additional coal may have been put into stock. I am unable to supply the information as to prices asked for.
    Mr. GRIFFITHS: Do the hon. and gallant Gentleman and the Government propose to make representations to the owners, in respect of selling schemes, that assistance should be given to the export districts to help them to carry this tremendous burden?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: That is quite another question. That is not what was on the Paper or what I am answering.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. ATTLEE: May I ask the Prime Minister what will be the business for next week?
The PRIME MINISTER: Monday.—Supply; Committee (12th Allotted Day). Post Office Vote for a Debate on Broadcasting.
Tuesday.—Report stage and Third Reading of the Midwives Bill.
Wednesday.—Supply; Committee (13th Allotted Day). Treasury Vote.
Thursday.—Supply; Committee (14th Allotted Day). The Vote will be announced later.
Friday.—Supply; Committee (9th Allotted Day, 2nd part). Home Office Vote for a Debate on Civil Liberties.
On any day, as opportunity offers, progress will be made with other Orders.
Mr. ATTLEE: On Wednesday we propose to put a Motion on the Paper dealing with the subject of Malnutrition, which concerns a number of Ministries. It will give an opportunity for discussing that subject without being hampered by an ordinary Departmental Supply Vote. May I ask the Prime Minister, further, what business he proposes to take to-day?
The PRIME MINISTER: I take note of the right hon. Gentleman's statement of how he proposes to utilise Wednesday. To-day we propose to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule, in order to obtain the Report stage and Third Reading of the Education (Scotland) Bill, and the Third Reading of the Crown Lands Bill.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 218; Noes, 113.

Division No. 266.]

AYES.

[3.48 p.m.

Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

Errington, E.

Morgan, R. H.

Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

Erskine Hill, A. G.

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

Findlay, Sir E.

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Gibson, C. G.

Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gledhill, G.

Munro, P.

Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

Goodman, Col. A. W.

Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

Balnell, Lord

Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

Granville, E. L.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Baxter, A. Beverley

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Gridley, Sir A. B.

Palmer, G. E. H.

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

Peake, O.

Beit, Sir A. L.

Grimston, R. V.

Peat, C. U.

Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N.

Guinness, T. L. E. B.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Bernays, R. H.

Guy, J. C. M.

Plugge, L. F.

Birchall, Sir J. D.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

Porritt, R. W.

Blindell, Sir J.

Hamilton, Sir G. C.

Ra41·8kes, H. V. A. M.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Hannah, I. C.

Ramsbotham, H.

Bossom, A. C.

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Ramsden, Sir E.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

Hartington, Marquess of

Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

Brass, Sir W.

Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

Hepworth, J.

Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. W.

Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)

Bull, B. B.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

Burgin, Dr. E. L.

Howitt, Dr. A. B.

Salmon, Sir I.

Burton, Col. H. W.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham)

Butler, R. A.

Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

Campbell, Sir E. T.

Hulbert, N. J.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

Carver, Major W. H.

Hunter, T.

Sandys, E. D.

Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

Jackson, Sir H.

Scott, Lord William

Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

Keeling, E. H.

Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st),

Channon, H.

Kimball, L.

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

Kirkpatrick, W. M.

Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

Chorlton, A. E. L.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

Smithers, Sir W.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Law, Sir A.J. (High Peak)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Colfox, Major W. P.

Leckie, J. A.

Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

Colman, N. C. D.

Leigh, Sir J.

Spender-Clay, Lt.-Cl. Rt. Hn. H. H.

Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

Levy, T.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk N.)

Liddall, W. S.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Dull(W'st'r S.G'gs)

Lindsay, K. M.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.)

Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

Cranborne, Viscount

Lloyd, G. W.

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

Crooke, J. S.

Loftus, P. C.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

Cross, R. H.

Lyons, A. M.

Stuart. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Crossley, A. C.

Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

Crowder, J. F. E.

MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

Sutcliffe, H.

Cruddas, Col. B.

McCorquodale, M. S.

Tasker, Sir R. I.

Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

Tate, Mavis C.

De Chair, S. S.

Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

De la Bère, R.

McKie, J. H.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Maclay, Hon. J. P.

Touche, G. C.

Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

Walker-Smith, Sir J.

Drewe, C.

Magnay, T.

Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

Warrender, Sir V.

Dugdale, Major T. L.

Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

Wayland, Sir W. A.

Duggan, H. J.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Wells, S. R.

Dunglass, Lord

Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Womersley, Sir W. J.

Ellis, Sir G.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Emery, J. F.

Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Sir George Penny and Lieut.-Colonel

Entwistle, C. F.

Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

Sir A. Lambert Ward.

NOES.

Adams, D. (Consett)

Barr, J.

Burke, W. A.

Adamson, W. M.

Batey, J.

Cassells, T.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'Isbr.)

Bellenger, F.

Chater, D.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Benson, G.

Cluse, W. S.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Brooke, W.

Cove, W. G.

Banfield, J. W.

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

Daggar, G.

620

621

Dalton, H.

Kelly, W. T.

Seely, Sir H. M.

Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

Sexton, T. M.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Kirkwood, D.

Shinwell, E.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Lathan, G.

Short, A.

Day, H.

Lawson, J. J.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

Ede, J. C.

Leach, W.

Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Leonard, W.

Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

Leslie, J. R.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Foot, D. M.

Logan, D. G.

Sorensen, R. W.

Frankel, D.

Lunn, W.

Stephen, C.

Gallacher, W.

Macdonald, G. (Ince)

Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

Gardner, B. W.

McEntee, V. La T.

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Garro Jones, G. M.

McGhee, H. G.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

MacLaren, A.

Thorne, W.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Maclean, N.

Thurtle, E.

Gibbins, J.

MacNeill, Weir, L.

Tinker, J. J.

Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

Mander, G. le M.

Viant, S. P.

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Marklow, E.

Walkden, A. G.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Marshall, F.

Walker, J.

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Mathers, G.

Watson, W. McL.

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Maxton, J.

Welsh, J. C.

Groves, T. E.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

Westwood, J.

Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

White, H. Graham

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

Paling, W.

Wilkinson, Ellen

Hardie, G. D.

Parker, J.

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Harris, Sir P. A.

Parkinson, J. A.

Williams, T. (Don Valley)

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

Henderson, T. (Tradeton)

Potts, J.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Hills, A. (Pontefract)

Quibell, D. J. K.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Holdsworth, H.

Richards, H. (Wrexham)

Holland, A.

Riley, B.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

Ritson, J.

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. John.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

BILLS REPORTED.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HEATHFIELD AND DISTRICT WATER) BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
EPSOM AND WALTON DOWNS REGULATION BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended, to lie upon the Table.
BRIGHTON CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended, to lie upon the Table.
NORTH-WEST KENT JOINT WATER BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended, to lie upon the Table.
ROCHESTER CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended, to lie upon the Table.
BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
The CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS, in pursuance of Standing Order 91 relating to Private Bills, informed the House that,
622
in his opinion, the Birmingham Corporation Bill [Lords], though unopposed, ought to be treated as an opposed Bill.
Report to lie upon the Table.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
Pilotage Authorities (Limitation of Liability) Bill,
Great Western Railway (Ealing and Shepherd's Bush Railway Extension) Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the law with respect to the discharge of trade effluents into the sewers of local authorities." [Public Health (Drainage of Trade Premises) Bill [Lords.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Order for Consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee), read.
  3.58 p.m.
  Mr. DINGLE FOOT: I beg to move, "That the Bill be recommitted to the former Committee."
  When the Bill was before the Scottish Standing Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) and I put down three Amendments to Clause 2, which, as I think everyone agrees, is the most important Clause in the Bill. Briefly, the objects of those Amendments were to determine, first, whether the exemptions Clause should be a mandatory or a permissive Clause; secondly, whether exemptions should be granted at the age of 14 or at the age of 14½; and, thirdly, whether the education authorities should be entitled to consider whether continued education at school would not be more beneficial to the child than going into the work offered. The Chairman of the Scottish Standing Committee, the hon. and gallant Member for Bute and Northern Ayrshire (Sir C. MacAndrew), in the exercise of his discretion, refused to select these three Amendments. We have put them on the Paper to-day, but as this is the Report stage, and as the Amendments would, I think, impose a charge upon the rates, they will not, of course, be in order at this stage; and I understand that in any case it is not intended that they should be called. That would not matter if they had been discussed upstairs.
  To my mind these are three very vital points, particularly the Amendment to raise the age from 14 to 14½, an Amendment which was discussed at very great length, I think over two sittings, on the English Education Bill, but which we have not been able to discuss at all upon the Scottish Education Bill. The position is this: Owing to the way in which the discretion of the Chairman was exercised in the Committee and owing to the rules of order which apply to Debates on Report stage, we are not to have, as things now stand, any opportunity at all of discussing or amending some of the most important features in this Bill. I
  638
  want to make it clear that I am not making any personal attack on the hon. and gallant Gentleman who was Chairman of the Standing Committee, but I feel that we have cause for complaint if we are prevented from properly debating this Bill and the various important features in it. In these circumstances I feel that we have a grievance. We have not been able to discuss the Amendments which we regard as more important than any others. Therefore, I move this Motion.
  4.2 p.m.
  The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. T. M. Cooper): I rise to resist the Motion moved by the Junior Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot), a Motion of which we have had only a moment's notice. I am not in a position to verify, from the proceedings it the Standing Committee, precisely what happened at the various stages, but speaking from recollection, and I think accurate recollection, of the way in which the matters to which the hon. Member has referred were dealt with, the position is—I am within the recollection of many hon. Members who were Members of the Standing Committee—that the right hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) and the hon. Member for Dundee put on the Paper a considerable number of Amendments, most of which I find on the Order Paper for to-day. One of the earliest and most important of the Amendments was called in the Standing Committee and neither of them was present to move it.
  Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: Is that Amendment on the Order Paper to-day?
  The LORD ADVOCATE: In the short time at my disposal I have not been able to verify whether or not the Amendment in question is on the Order Paper to-day, but this I can say, and again I am within the recollection of hon. Members, that the particular Amendment which was called and which was not moved was an Amendment of such importance that when at a later stage of the proceedings a question was raised by one of the Members as to why a further Amendment had not been selected by the Chair, the Chairman of the Committee indicated that that later Amendment was so intimately associated with or consequential

  639
  upon the original Amendment that had not been moved, that he did not propose to call it.
  Mr. FOOT: May I intervene? The Lord Advocate's recollection is entirely inaccurate. The two Amendments had nothing whatever to do with each other. Perhaps he will quote to the House what was said upstairs. With regard to the Amendments to Clause 2, to which I have referred, let me add that I was present in the Standing Committee throughout the Debates on Clause 2, and if any one of the Amendments to which I have referred had been called, I was there to move it.
  4.5 p.m.
  Colonel Sir CHARLES MacANDREW: I have been referred to as the Chairman of the Standing Committee. I had no warning till this very moment, after the Division, that this point was to be raised now. If I had known it was to be raised I would have felt it my duty to look up what happened in the Committee. As far as the statement of the Lord Advocate is concerned, I very well remember that one of the Amendments in the name of the right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) which I selected, I did call, and no one was present to move it.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: It was not one of the Amendments on Clause 2.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: I regret that I have not had an opportunity of referring to the particular passages of the Committee proceedings. I have had no opportunity in the few moments at my disposal to look up the matter. But there is another aspect of the question.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: Will the Lord Advocate allow me to say that if he looks at the OFFICIAL REPORT of the fourth day's proceedings of the Standing Committee, column 120, he will see that I intervened in order to get discussed the first Amendment that is on the Order Paper to-day.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I must remind the House that under the Standing Orders, on a Motion to recommit a Bill, only one speech is allowed, given reasons for recommittal, and a reply.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: Then it is all the more important that the Lord Advocate
  640
  in presenting his case to the House should not confine himself to the particular Amendments which are on the Paper for the Report stage, and should not try to create prejudice by bringing into the discussion other Amendments which are not on the Paper to-day.
  Mr. STEPHEN: On a point of Order. Would I be in order in moving the Adjournment of the Debate in order that this matter might be cleared up? It is of the utmost importance in our proceedings. A statement has been made by the Lord Advocate, but he cannot quote anything in support of it.
  Mr. SPEAKER: It is quite clear from Standing Order No. 40 that when a Motion is moved to recommit a Bill the Speaker shall permit a brief explanatory statement of the reasons for such recommittal, and a reply, and without further debate shall put the Question thereon.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: May I press my point and ask you, Mr. Speaker, to rule that the Lord Advocate's reply should be confined to those Amendments which are on the Order Paper to-day and to what occurred when those Amendments were called in Committee?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot restrict the Lord Advocate as long as he is in order.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: The other aspect of the matter to which I wish to refer, in answer to the Motion, is simply this: The Amendments which are on the Order Paper to-day in very large measure, though not in every ease, cover the same ground as the Amendments which were discussed in Committee on the motion of hon. Members opposite, and indeed hon. Members in all parts of the House. With reference to the intervention of the right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) I do observe that in the course of the proceedings on the sixth day, in column 215, the right hon. Gentleman intervened to point out that he had put down an Amendment slightly different in form but having the same object as one which had been moved by another hon. Member, and he thanked the hon. Member for his action.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: That had nothing to do with the Amendments on the Paper to-day.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: On that double ground, first, that the right hon. Member for Caithness and the hon. Member for Dundee have themselves to thank to some extent for the fact that at least one of their Amendments was not called, and in the second place that in very large measure—I cannot say more—the ground which they now seek to traverse
  in this House has been covered by the discussions in Committee, I humbly submit that it would not be appropriate to recommit the Bill.
  Question put, "That the Bill be recommitted to the former Committee."
  The House divided: Ayes, 113; Noes, 185.

  Division No. 267.]

  AYES.

  [4.10 p.m.

  Adams, D. (Consett)

  Hard e, G. D.

  Potts, J.

  Adamson, W. M.

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Pritt, D. N.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'Isbr.)

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Quibell, D. J. K.

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Holdsworth, H.

  Richards, R. (Wrexham)

  Banfield, J. W.

  Holland, A.

  Riley, B.

  Barr, J.

  John, W.

  Ritson, J.

  Batey, J.

  Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

  Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

  Benson, G.

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Sexton, T. M.

  Brooke, W.

  Jones, J. J. (Silvertown)

  Shinwell, E.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Kelly, W. T.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Burke, W. A.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Cassells, T.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees. (K'ly)

  Chater, D.

  Lathan, G.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Cove, W. G.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Daggar, G.

  Leach, W.

  Stephen, C.

  Dalton, H.

  Leonard, W.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

  Leslie, J. R.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Logan, D. G.

  Thorne, W.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Lunn, W.

  Thurtle, E.

  Day, H.

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Tinker, J. J.

  Ede, J. C.

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Viant, S. P.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Walker, J.

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  MacLaren, A.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Foot, D. M.

  Maclay, Hon. J. P.

  Welsh, J. C.

  Frankel, D.

  Maclean, N.

  Westwood, J.

  Gallacher, W.

  MacNeill, Weir, L.

  White, H. Graham

  Gardner, B. W.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Whiteley, W.

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Marklew, E.

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Marshall, F.

  Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Mathers, G.

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  Gibbins, J.

  Maxwell, S. A.

  Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Messer, F.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Groves, T. E.

  Paling, W.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

  Parker, J.

  Sir Hugh Seely and Sir Percy

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Harris,

  NOES.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Channon, H.

  Emery, J. F.

  Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Emmett, C. E. G. C.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Entwistle, C. F.

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Errington, E.

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Colfox, Major W. P.

  Erskine Hill, A. G.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

  Flldes, Sir H.

  Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Fox, Sir G. W. G.

  Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N.

  Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff(W'st'r S.G'gs)

  Gibson, C. G.

  Birchall, Sir J. D.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.)

  Gledhill, G.

  Blindell, Sir J.

  Crooke, J. S.

  Goodman, Col. A. W.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Brass, Sir W.

  Cross, R. H.

  Granville, E. L.

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  De Chair, S. S.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

  Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

  Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

  Guinness, T. L. E. B.

  Bull, B. B.

  Drewe, C.

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Hamilton, Sir G. C.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Dugdale, Major T. L.

  Hannah, I. C.

  Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

  Dunglass, Lord

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Scott, Lord William

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Simon, Rt. Hon Sir J. A.

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan.

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'If'st).

  Hepworth, J.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

  Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

  Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Howitt, Dr. A. B.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

  Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

  Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

  Morgan, R. H.

  Spender-Clay, Lt.-Cl. Rt. Hn. H. H.

  Hunter, T.

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

  Jackson, Sir H.

  Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

  Keeling, E. H.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Munro, P.

  Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  Kimball, L.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Kirkpatrick, W. M.

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Leckie, J. A.

  Peake, O.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Penny, Sir G.

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Leigh, Sir. J.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Levy, T.

  Plugge, L. F.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Liddall, W. S.

  Porritt, R. W.

  Touche, G. C.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.

  Llewellin, Lieut,-Col. J. J.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir. A. L. (Hull)

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

  Loftus, P. C.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Warrender, Sir V.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Lyons, A. M.

  Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)

  McKie, J. H.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham)

  Major Sir George Davies and Mr.

  Magnay, T.

  Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

  James Stuart.

  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  NEW CLAUSE.—(Transfer of teachers.)
  Section twenty-one of the Act of 1908 and Section twenty-four of the Act of 1918 shall apply in like manner as they apply to the dismissal of a teacher, to any transfer of a teacher which would result in a reduction in his status or emoluments unless such transfer be effected by agreement with the teacher concerned.—[Mr. Watson.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  4.19 p.m.
  Mr. WATSON: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  This Clause raises a very simple but a very important point. A teacher has a right of appeal to the Education Department in the event of dismissal but, if he is transferred from one school to another, or from one class to another, he or she has no right of appeal. Sometimes a teacher who is transferred suffers greater humiliation than one who is dismissed. We had not very long ago a very deplorable case in which a teacher was transferred from one school under the education authority to another, with a lower status and a lower salary. It created a considerable amount of interest generally and very strong feeling in the neighbourhood. The agitation went on for months and ultimately it found its way to the
  644
  Court of Session. Since then education authorities have taken steps to safeguard themselves against a repetition of such a case. We believe that by such a provision as this we shall obviate any such case arising in future.
  I may be told that there are administrative difficulties, that, education authorities do not wish to give teachers a power of appeal against transference, and that it is impracticable to put such a Clause into operation. My view is that, if we had such a provision as this, greater care would be exercised by directors of education and education authorities in the appointment of teachers. If there were no square pegs going into round holes there would be little need for transfers, and in that case there need be no administrative difficulty. There is a possibility sometimes that teachers may be transferred for reasons which are not very creditable, and it would certainly give a teacher who was placed in that position a feeling that he was getting a fair chance. An education authority may be able to satisfy itself that it has good reason for transferring a teacher from one school or one class to another, but I do not see any difficulty in giving teachers an appeal to the Department if they feel aggrieved at being transferred.
  4.25 p.m.
  Mr. LEONARD: I beg to second the Motion.
  I think it is in harmony with the tendency displayed by legislation in previous years. Protection was first given to teachers with regard to dismissal in the Act of 1908, but that protection was not deemed to be sufficient and it was extended by the Act of 1918, which laid it down that not only was a resolution for dismissal necessary, but that three weeks' notice in writing must be given to the teacher before the meeting took place. Other aspects of a protective character were included in the 1918 Act. I must admit that I am not expressing views in conformity with the locality that I represent, because the Glasgow Education Authority advised me and others that they were not in consonance with the Clause, but I have a right to speak as one who was at one time a member of that committee and, while in that position, I could see the possibility of cases arising which would make such protection desirable. The Glasgow authority has been able to work harmoniously with its staff, and this proposal will not create any tendency among teachers to make trouble, such as perhaps was contemplated when the letter from the education authority was received. Men and women who have given years of study and attained a certain form of distinction have obtained a status for themselves and, in view of the harm that may be done by a reduction in that status, justice demands that there should be a right of appeal.
  4.29 p.m.
  Mr. MAXTON: On this matter I can speak with a certain degree of authority. I am probably the only ex-member of the teaching profession in the House who has had the distinction of being compulsorily transferred as a punishment, and also of being dismissed. Therefore I can speak with knowledge and understanding. I was dismissed and degraded by the Glasgow Education Authority some 20 odd years ago for committing what was in their eyes a very serious offence. I attended a conference of the Labour party. Looking back on it, I can see that the education committee had greater wisdom than I had, and I bear them no ill-feeling. But, joking apart, I think it is a shocking thing that an education
  646
  authority can transfer and degrade a teacher in a penal way. I do not know any teacher who would object to transference from school to school in the ordinary way of the proper functioning of the educational machinery in the district, but where it is done as a definite penalty the teacher should have some right of appeal.
  In the case which I raised here some time ago, of a private soldier who was in difficulties, I found that the private soldier who regards himself as having been unfairly treated has rights of appeal right up to the Army Council, and yet a teacher can be transferred and degraded with a serious blot put upon his professional eputation and there is no appeal whatever from the decision of his local education committee. The House will remember the case of a headmaster of a secondary school in the county of Dumbartonshire—the case is 12 months old and has not yet been settled—who was transferred and degraded from being the head of his school, a position which he had held with very great distinction and success for a. long term of years. He had the enthusiastic support and respect of the parents of the children attending his school, the affection and regard of his pupils in an astounding fashion, was a man of the highest academic distinction (two universities), and had a great War record, with distinctions earned upon the field of battle as well. [An HON. MEMBER: "And all the teachers supported him."] Not merely the teachers who were his own immediate assistants and had worked under him, but he had the support of the whole of the teaching profession in Scotland. This man, over some petty dispute, if I may say so without being unkind, with a not too competent official, not over school efficiency, but over routine methods, was degraded and made a junior assistant teacher.
  When the matter was raised in this House by the hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. Leonard), by me, and, I think, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Stirling (Mr. T. Johnston), the Secretary of State for Scotland was in the humiliating position of having to stand at that Box and say that he was completely powerless even to investigate the circumstances. Although this House is responsible for at least 50 per cent.

  647
  of the whole of the educational expenditure in Dumbartonshire, although we keep a staff of inspectors to go round that county to see that education is maintained at a proper level, the Secretary of State for Scotland got up repeatedly at that Box and said that he had no right to interfere, that he had no status in the matter, no opportunity to do any thing, and he maintained that position. The aggrieved teacher finally had to go into the courts of law, and he obtained a decision that it was an illegal act to treat him in this way. It was definitely illegal, and you have had the anomalous position ever since, that this man has continued as an assistant teacher at work which would be remunerated, perhaps, at the rate of £300 per annum, and because of the legal decision, the Dumbartonshire authority and the ratepayers of Dumbartonshire and the Treasury generally, have been compelled by that legal decision to pay him the salary of the position from which he was illegally transferred. [An HON. MKMBER.: "Two headmasters in one school."] I think it is a salary of some £600 or £700 per annum.
  That is a very shocking anomaly. I am certain that if, in the beginning of the dispute, it had been possible for that teacher to have referred the matter at once to the Scottish Education Department and the responsible official from that Department had gone down there, the whole thing could have been settled in 24 hours in a decent and intelligent way without ill-feeling being left behind and great harm being done to education in the locality, and without permanent blots being left upon the characters of the people concerned. This Amendment, I take it, has that case in mind. There are other cases of a similar sort. There was a case some years ago in the Cathcart area, where some lady assistant teachers were punished by transference and had no appeal. That case was taken into the law courts and the aggrieved teachers obtained a decision in their favour. All that we are asking in this Amendment is, that the administrative operations shall be brought into conformity with the legal practice. I cannot think of any possible arguments against the acceptance of the Amendment, except the rather trivial one which has been put up by the Glasgow Authority
  648
  and the Glasgow Town Council, namely, that, without the right to transfer, the work of a big authority would become very difficult if every teacher who was asked to go from here to there said, "No, I am not going." Everybody knows that in the ordinary course of the operations of the educational service teachers are very ready to accept transfers, provided that they are not being put into work that is completely uncongenial or unsuited to them. And, surely, even in a State organised enterprise, it is possible to allow the individual a certain margin of individual liberty. The anti-Socialists are always saying that our Socialist ideas would destroy liberty, and they seem to take every possible step to secure that that shall be so. I do not believe it. A publicly organised service should allow a greater liberty to the individual that any privately owned enterprise ever does.
  Normally, the teacher who is asked to move from here to there goes gladly. If reasons and motives are required to support that movement, they know that a teacher who is perpetually putting himself in opposition to the wishes of the authority is not likely to go very far in promotion in his profession. Therefore, I hope that the Secretary of State will accept the Amendment and give to himself powers which would remove from him the appearance of complete ineptitude that he presented when he got up to answer questions in this House. It is a humiliating thing, even for Members of the Opposition to see their Ministers just standing at that Box looking like fools. They know that in certain cases it cannot be avoided, but there are certain things that we can do to remove that painful experience, and the acceptance of the Amendment I regard as one of them.
  4.40 p.m.
  Mr. G. A. MORRISON: I remember that during the progress of the case referred to by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) there was very strong feeling, not only locally, but among the whole teaching profession in Scotland, that something in the nature of an appeal to the Department should be made. That appeal was made, and the Department, as the hon. Member says, had to say that it had no power to interfere unless the authority proceeded to dismissal. Incidentally, the Department, wrongly in my opinion, was

  649
  blamed for "putting ill" into the heads of the Committee, but the position surely requires some remedy. I should like to draw attention to one of the consequences of that case. One education Committee in Scotland since that date, I understand, has put into its conditions of appointment this Clause:
  "The Education Committee reserves the right to transfer at any time any teachers in their service to schools under their jurisdiction other than those to which they are appointed in the terms of the formal letter of appointment accompanying these conditions."
  In the letter of appointment there is this further condition:
  "That transfer in accordance with the terms of No. 5 of the enclosed conditions"—
  the one I have just read—
  "may lead to the appointment to a lower status and salary."
  I will read the opinion upon that of a very eminent Scottish lawyer, who is so eminent that I am very sorry I cannot mention his name. He says:
  "It is nut properly within my province, but perhaps I may be allowed to add that I think it is for consideration by the memoralists"—
  the Educational Institute of Scotland—
  "whether they should not endeavour to have the matter of transfer placed under legislative conditions similar to those which affect the matter of dismissal. Unless this is done, if I am right in my view of the law as it stands, it may be that teachers will, in a practical sense, have no option but to refuse acceptance of what is a one-sided bargain."
  I hope that the House will agree that the teachers of Scotland had good reason to take action in this matter.
  4.43 p.m.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: The case for this Clause has been presented with great moderation and force, but I think that I can satisfy the House in a very few moments that a closer consideration of the practical aspects of the Clause makes it really quite impossible to accept the proposal which it contains. The purpose of the Clause is to subject all transfers which involve a reduction in status or emoluments to the statutory transfer of the Acts of 1908 and 1918 which relate to dismissal.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: With one qualification, which the Lord Advocate has omitted—the qualification in the last sentence.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: I think I mentioned it. Any transfer which involved a reduction in status or emoluments. The right hon. Member is referring to the words "not effected by agreements." I should like to recall to the memory of the House the conditions and restrictions which it is sought by this Clause to apply to such transfers. In the first place, three weeks' written notice of the proposed transfer would have to be given to the teacher to be transferred and to every member of the education authority concerned. A full meeting of the education authority would be required, such meeting to be attended by not less than one-half of the members of the education authority, and the resolution would require to be carried by a two-thirds majority. Then comes the second stage. After all that had been done, it would be open to the transferred teacher, after an interval of anything up to six weeks, to present a petition to the Department by way of appeal. If the Department were so disposed they could ask the authority to reconsider their decision—they could not compel them to alter it—and if the authority declined to alter it, then the teacher is to receive such sums up to one year's salary as the Department might determine.
  Those are the conditions. What are the cases to which they refer? There are approximately 28,000 teachers in Scotland. The transfer of any one of these teachers may take place in a great variety of circumstances. You may have a transfer from one school to another school rendered necessary by the needs of the population. You may have a transfer from one department of a school to another department of the same school, rendered necessary by the same cause. You may have a case such as that referred to by the hon. Member for Dumfermline (Mr. Watson) of a round peg in a square hole. You do not discover that a round peg does not fit a square hole until you try to put the round peg into the square hole. Therefore, the advice which the hon. Member gave to the education authorities to be more careful in their appointments was a counsel of perfection, because it is only by experience that they can determine
  whether a, particular person is fit by temperament, qualification, experience or skill for a particular type of work.
  Mr. MAXTON: It is the same with Ministers.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: Even Ministers, I imagine, have to be tried out, and sometimes they are found wanting. Another type of case is where a teacher is promoted on trial to a position involving a prospect of improved status and emoluments, and is found not to be suited for the high responsibility and has to go back to his former position. The passing of this Clause would involve this position, that we should have to start all this cumbersome and elaborate machinery of three months notice, a full meeting of the authority, a two-thirds majority, then delay up to six weeks, an appeal to the Department, and afterwards compensation—which, however appropriate it might be to a dismissal, seems to be singularly inappropriate to a transfer—by a money payment up to one year's salary. I cannot but feel that to impose upon the education authorities in Scotland restrictions and shackles of that kind would be definitely inimical to the proper administration of public education and would subject those authorities to interference with their discretion and their powers to which it is not fair to subject them. One could not help noting that in the speeches of hon. Members who have supported the Clause emphasis has been laid on the Lenzie case. It is true that the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) instanced one other case, but broadly speaking, the Lenzie case is the one example in recent years.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: Hear hear!
  The LORD ADVOCATE: The right hon. Gentleman bears me out there. It is a fair comment that there has been only this one outstanding case, and the fact that that outstanding case has attracted so much publicity and attention is in itself a high tribute to the discretion and humanity with which the education authorities of Scotland have exercised their powers.
  Mr. MAXTON: The intelligence of the teaching profession comes in too.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: I should be the last to withhold a tribute to the teaching profession of Scotland. When the new Clause first appeared on the Order Paper in Committee upstairs it attracted a considerable amount of
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  attention in Scotland, and it is right that the House should know that representations against the unworkability of the proposal have been received by the Government not only from the Corporation of Glasgow, but also from the Association of County Councils of Scotland and, in addition to the general representation of the counties, there have been special representations from the counties of Aberdeen, Angus and Kirkcudbright, which represent a substantial measure of opposition to the suggestion embodied in the Clause.
  Reference was made by the hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Mr. G. A. Morrison) to the fact that one local authority was now embodying in its contract for teachers terms which involve that the teacher is bound to accept a transfer. As far as I am aware that is perfectly correct, but I would point out that the purpose of so drawing the contract is to obviate, in the case of that local authority, the situation which arose in the Lenzie case. I will not pursue that case now because this is not the time or place, but the hon. Member for Bridgeton said that the court in that case held that the action of the county council was illegal. All that the court held was that in that particular case their action was a breach of contract, which is rather a different thing.
  Mr. MAXTON: Is not a breach of contract illegal?
  The LORD ADVOCATE: Yes, but not in the sense that it is prohibited by the general law of the land, but merely that it is a violation of a particular agreement between a particular county council and an individual teacher. That is the distinction. While I fully appreciate the desire of hon. Members to confer upon the teaching profession in Scotland a high measure of security of tenure, I would urge upon them the consideration that they are pressing their demands in this matter beyond a point at which administrative efficiency can be attained. For that reason and because we feel that the acceptance of this Clause would be strongly detrimental to the efficient administration of education in Scotland, I am bound to resist the Amendment and to ask the House to reject it.
  4.52 p.m.
  Mr. T. JOHNSTON: We are fortunate in some respects in this discussion. We have had observations from hon. Members who have spent a lifetime in the administration of education in Scotland. We have had an appeal by. the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), who has had experience as a teacher, and we have had a speech from the Lord Advocate, who, if I recollect aright, acted in the Lenzie case professionally on behalf of the county council. I speak as one who was not only educated at the Lenzie Academy but who lives in the parish and started the agitation which resulted in the Court of Session action. Certain things have not been said about that case. The Lord Advocate says that there has been only one case in recent years. What is the position? Here is this poor, victimised teacher, who was publicly humiliated and degraded 18 months ago and who has to go 30 miles to act as an assistant teacher. It is nine months, if I recollect aright, since Lord Pitman gave his decision. As a ratepayer in the county I am still paying my share of the salaries of two headmasters in one school because the Court of Session insisted that the action of the Dumbartonshire Education Authority was incompetent and illegal.
  The Lord Advocate says that there has been only one case in recent years. There was no reason for him to tell us that there are 20,000 teachers, scaring hon. Members as if there were going to be 20,000 appeals to the 'Department. Suppose there was another case next week or next year, the Government would again be in the humiliating position that they are in to-night of not being able to put the screw upon an education authority which was so misconducting itself. What are the facts about the Lenzie case? This is an illustration of what may go on, elsewhere. Here is a headmaster against whose character there is not one word and against whose ability there is not one word. The inspectors have for years spoken in high commendation of his work at the school, yet suddenly he is told that he has to work in future as an assistant teacher 30 or 40 miles away, and no reason is given. There were all sorts of rumours about the reason. It was rumoured that there must be something serious and terrible. I learned from a local representative that not one of them knew of any reason why
  654
  this thing should ever have been done. The Vice Convener of the county, at my request, asked for an explanation but was refused. Public meetings of all kinds were held, letters appeared in the Press, and, finally, the case went to the Court of Session, with the result that the court said to the county council: "You have acted incompetently and illegally and you must pay this man his headmaster's salary if you are not prepared to dismiss him."
  Here is the kernel of the whole business. Why did they not dismiss him? We know. They were well aware of their rights and duties under the Statute. It was said at the meeting: "Do not dismiss this man. If you dismiss him he has a right of appeal to the Secretary of State for Scotland. Simply degrade him, and he has no right of appeal." Here we are this afternoon asking that if any man is degraded in his emoluments or his status, without his consent—I admit that there are cases where the population may move or where a man may on grounds of health agree to take a lesser salary—he should have the right of appeal to the Secretary of State for Scotland and be able to state his case. That is the perfectly simply point.
  The Lord Advocate says that the Government are unable to accept the new Clause because of administrative difficulties. He has been told by the hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Mr. G. A. Morrison) that there is already one precious education authority who are asking the teachers to sign away their rights in advance as a condition of getting employment. The Lord Advocate shakes his head. I hope he is not going to deny that statement. I have the documents here, with names and addresses.
  Mr. GUY: What rights are teachers signing away?
  Mr. JOHNSTON: They are being asked to sign a document that if they are transferred to a lower status or lower salary the education authority has the right to do so without appeal. The West Lothian Education Committee, as one of the conditions of the appointment of teachers—
  "reserve the right to transfer at any time any teachers in their service to schools under their jurisdiction other than those to which they are appointed under the terms of the formal letter of appointment accompanying these conditions."

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  That education committee reserve to themselves the right to degrade teachers, and the teachers have to accept this condition as a condition precedent to getting employment. So far as the administrative difficulties are concerned, we have been told that one case has occurred in recent years. The Lord Advocate asked why a man who is going to be transferred should get three weeks notice of his transfer. Surely, a man is entitled to three weeks notice if he is going to be degraded in his status and in his income. Surely, he should have time to gather together his goods and chattels, give up his home and transfer himself to another district. Is it unreasonable to ask that he should get three weeks notice? Surely not. An education authority which objects to giving a man three weeks notice of its intention to degrade him in his emoluments and status is sinning against the light, and I hope that the Secretary of State will indicate his sympathy with the purpose of the new Clause and if any slight alteration in wording is required we shall give him no trouble in the matter. I suggest that the time has come when the Secretary of State should indicate to the Dumbartonshire Education Authority his disapproval of their conduct, and the way in which he can do that is to accept what is pretty nearly the unanimous wish of every Scottish Member. I hope he will examine sympathetically between now and Report this proposal, and if he can accept it in principle he will receive the cordial approbation of nine-tenths of the people of Scotland.
  5.5 p.m.
  Mr. FOOT: I want to support the appeal which has been made by the right hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Mr. T. Johnston). The Lord Advocate in his reply did give a formidable list of administrative difficulties, and I entirely agree with him on that aspect of the matter, that it would be very difficult to apply the procedure which now obtains in the case of dismissal to the case of transfer. But in spite of that the answer of the Lord Advocate did not meet the point raised by hon. Members in this new Clause. They are not dealing with administrative difficulties. There is a very real grievance on the part of a teacher who is
  656
  transferred and degraded to an inferior position without any right of appeal. If that can happen it is clear that you are allowing a loophole to remain in the present system of appeals. A teacher can appeal if he is dismissed, but if the education authority does not want to face an appeal they can transfer a teacher, place him in an inferior position, so that no teacher with any self-respect would stay in the service. In that way it is possible for them to evade an appeal. It seems to me that you are also taking away a certain amount of the value of an appeal in the case of dismissal.
  If we were deciding whether the new Clause is practicable or not from an administrative point of view I should support the Government in the division, but the right hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan has made it clear that those who are supporting the proposal are not wedded to an exactly similar procedure but that they are asking that there should be a right of appeal in the case of transfers which are not transfers by agreement. The Lord Advocate did not meet that point. He could have said that if the new Clause was withdrawn the Government would look into the matter, but we have been given no undertaking of that kind. When you have a real grievance, of which an actual example has been given, it does not meet the grievance for the Minister to point out that the form of words of the Amendment is impracticable from an administrative point of view. As the Lord Advocate has not shown any sign of giving way on the principle of the new Clause I shall support it if it goes to a Division.
  5.9 p.m.
  Mr. WESTWOOD: I desire also to make an appeal for an acceptance of the spirit of the new Clause if not for the actual words. It will give a right of appeal to a teacher who is transferred and suffers a reduction in status or emoluments. It does not touch the case of an ordinary transfer; it refers only to those cases in which there is a reduction in status or emoluments as a result of transfer. The Lord Advocate said that the objection to the proposal was that it would be strongly detrimental to the practical administration of education in Scotland, and he has told us that he has received communications from the County

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  Councils Association. What do they know about educational administration in Scotland?
  The LORD ADVOCATE: And a good many more.
  Mr. WESTWOOD: He also mentioned the Glasgow City Corporation, which has had only six years' experience in the administration of education.. The County Councils Association had no control over educational administration until after the 1929 Act. I claim that I know some-think about educational administration in Scotland, and during the 25 years with which I had been connected with it I know of only one case in the County of Fife where there was any difficulty of this kind. There would be no difficulty in connection with the ordinary transfer of teachers in ordinary circumstances. No difficulty would arise under the new Clause. I admit that the changing numbers in our school population, the difference in the size of schools, means the transfer of teachers, but the new Clause will not interfere with such transfers in any way. The ordinary teacher in Scotland is safeguarded under the national minimum scale of salaries, and there would be no reduction in status or remuneration in such cases. But if the remuneration of a teacher is to be affected, if his status is to be affected by a transfer, he should have a right of appeal. If the Lord Advocate cannot accept the new Clause in its present form I appeal to him to accept it in principle. It would be quite easy to get the proper words inserted in another place and obviate injustices like that of the Lenzie case.
  5.14 p.m.
  Mr. STEPHEN: I want to ask the Lord Advocate to reconsider the matter. He said that he would be able to show very substantial reasons why the new Clause should be accepted, and those substantial reasons, he said, were difficulties in regard to administration. At the same time he failed to give us any idea of those difficulties. I should have liked him to have told us how many cases occurred last year and whether there were any transfer of teachers with loss of status and emoluments. Probably the only case that has occurred recently is the Lenzie case. I cannot see how this new Clause would create administrative difficulties if
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  it were accepted. I do not agree with the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) that there is anything unsatisfactory in the wording of the new Clause, and the Lord Advocate did not mention anything that was unsatisfactory in it. It is true that one hon. Member did suggest that if the words dealing with status were removed, so that the Clause would simply say that no transfer would be possible which involved a loss of emoluments, that would overcome the difficulty of a teacher who might be transferred to a school because of a change of population and in whose case it might be argued that there was a loss of status. I think in such a case the status would be covered by the question of the emoluments.
  But what I am arguing is that no administrative difficulties would follow from the acceptance of this proposed Clause. What could be the administrative difficulties? If a teacher is transferred with a loss of status or emoluments, he may make an appeal to the Department, but unless he has a good case the appeal will be rejected, he will lose everything and will not gain the year's salary in lieu of notice. Unless the teacher has a sound grievance, he has no hope of winning an appeal. Hon. Members have possibly had experience of going to Departments in regard to pensions or public assistance cases, and they will know the sort of sympathy one gets from the Departments. Unless one has an extraordinarily strong case, one gets nothing from the Department. The Minister will not override anything unless there is a substantial grievance. Therefore, in this case there cannot be any administrative difficulties because the teacher will be able to go to the Department only if he has a strong case. There is a strong case with regard to Lenzie, and the Lord Advocate did not meet that case. He did not deal with the difficulties that have resulted from the extraordinary decisions taken by the Dumbartonshire Education Committee. The only thing that would happen if this proposed Clause were carried would be that a Lenzie case would become practically impossible in the future. I challenge the Lord Advocate or the Secretary of State to deny that there is only a handful of cases in which there have been transfers involving loss of status or emoluments and that in the overwhelming majority of those cases the teacher had

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  not a right of appeal because the fault was very largely his own.
  Nobody could say that of the Lenzie case. I remember my own reactions when I read the Press reports about it. Frankly I could not believe that the education committee had not a case, because the whole thing seemed so extraordinary, and I thought the teacher must have been acting in a way that was very detrimental to the interests of the pupils. Afterwards I was amazed when I found out how the case had proceeded, and that the education committee simply had nothing against the teacher, the trouble being between him and the official. Anyone who has studied the case will realise that it is the official who was wrong. The official's past experience did not show very great confidence and he evidently had a swelled head and thought that he would show confidence in the future by dealing with the teacher in that way. One or two members of the committee came under the influence of that official and did what he suggested. I submit that the Lord Advocate has not given any substantial reason for not accepting this proposed Clause. It is not sufficient to say that there would he difficulties of administration unless he can show that there would be many cases in which big burdens would be placed on the education authorities. That has not happened with regard to dismissals, although the same thing might have been said concerning the law on the dismissal of teachers. Everything that the Lord Advocate said with regard to transfers could have been said with regard to dismissals. I suggest that the Lord Advocate ought to meet the House on this matter. I do not believe there is one hon. Member who would not welcome it if the Lord Advocate indicated that he proposed to meet us on this new Clause and make a Lenzie case, or any of the other cases that have occurred, impossible in the future.
  5.23 p.m.
  Mr. GUY: I have a great deal of sympathy with the purpose of this proposed Clause. I do not pretend to be in any way an educationist, and I have no association with Lenzie, but I think that the Lenzie case undoubtedly indicates the need for some kind of remedy in the event of wrong transfers taking place. When the question was raised in the Standing
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  Committee upstairs, a Division took place. At that time we had not heard the Lord Advocate's reply regarding the new Clause, and I refrained from voting one way or the other because I wished, I think rightly, to obtain more information. We have heard the reply of the Lord Advocate to-day, and in the interval which has elapsed since the Committee stage I have made inquiries as to how this proposal would work. With some reluctance I have come to the conclusion that this is not the best possible remedy.
  I am a very strong believer in what I believe to be a fundamental principle, that for every wrong there should be an appropriate legal remedy. In this connection there is the choice of an appeal to the courts or to the Government Department. That is a question which has frequently been debated, sometimes with some heat, in this House. It has been argued time and again that it is far better to go to an impartial court than to a Government Department, which may have some administrative bias or interest, One thing which the Lenzie case showed was that an appeal was available to the courts and that the headmaster concerned was able to get. some remedy. He still retains the salary he had before the action of the Dumbartonshire County Council, although he has not been restored, as I hope he will be, to the position of headmaster. Can it be said with any degree of certainty that if he had had an appeal to the Department that appeal would have been successful?
  Mr. FOOT: Surely if this additional appeal to the Department were provided it would in no way deprive any teacher of his right to appeal to the courts. He would have the alternative of a simpler and cheaper procedure of which he could avail himself if he wished, but he would still have the right to go to the courts.
  Mr. GUY: I admit that there are certain advantages in having an appeal to the Department in some cases, but my objection to the particular remedy which has been proposed is that it would create administrative difficulties. I think it is one which would not work satisfactorily, and I understood that was the gist of the reply made by the Lord Advocate. As I understood him, he is not against some remedy, but he says that this particular

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  remedy would not work satisfactorily.
  Mr. STEPHEN: Will the hon. Member explain what are the administrative difficulties?
  Mr. GUY: I am coming to that. One point which has already been referred to by the Lord Advocate is the penalty or sanction proposed in the case of a wrong transfer. I imagine that what the teacher concerned would like would be a retransfer. If he has been transferred wrongly, he would like to be put back into his previous position. The new Clause would not provide him with that remedy. What would it give him? It would give him a year's salary, but it would leave him in the wrong position to which he had been transferred. That would save his pocket, but it would not save his face. That is one of my objections. The other objection is that the machinery proposed would involve very considerable delays, although I admit that is an objection which might apply to various remedies that might be proposed. This long procedure might unnecessarily interfere with transfers of teachers in the ordinary way. Those are the objections I have to this particular remedy, although I sympathise very largely with the underlying purpose that there should be some appropriate remedy thought out to deal with the case of a wrong transfer.
  5.29 p.m.
  Mr. BARR: I must say that I do not think the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Guy) was very happy in putting forward the alternative of court procedure as against the alternative of administration through the Scottish Education Department, because the case of Lenzie illustrates distinctly the law's delays, and even now the appeal to the courts has not led to a satisfactory settlement. I read in the newspapers the other day that this man, with whom we sympathise so much, this headmaster who has been so much wronged by the opinion of the teaching profession and by the opinion of the law courts, is still travelling a very rough passage. His name was put forward the other day, and again the feelings excited were so keen that there was a very close division, and, if I am correct, he did not receive even the somewhat subordinate appointment, that of
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  headmaster of an advanced division school, which I believe he would have been willing to accept and for which he had been recommended.
  Therefore I think if what is proposed in the new Clause is not satisfactory, the appeal to the law courts which the hon. Member recommends would be far from satisfactory. He pointed out also an objection to the form of words and the method here proposed, and said it would leave the man in the inferior position, Although it would give him some monetary compensation. I venture to say, however, that it would be much more effective than that. It would prevent cases of this kind occurring. The very fact that such a penalty was possible would be effective in itself.
  I have a special purpose in rising at this stage. Reference has been made to the city of Glasgow and to the possibility of injuring the educational administration of that great city. Although one does not like to refer to one's personal experience, it so happens that for 11 years I took a central part in the administration of education in Glasgow. For five years I was convenor of the Teachers and Teaching Committee, and had to deal with every case of appointment and of transfer. I should qualify my statement by making it plain that it was not during my administration that the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) was dismissed from his position. Perhaps he might have received more mercy at my hands. I wish also to say that we did exercise a very firm control in matters of ordinary transfer. On a number of occasions applicants would express a desire to be appointed to a west-end school and we would say to those applicants, "If you are to be appointed you must, in the first instance, consider the appointment that we offer to you." We would make no social distinctions, and the committee often pointed out to applicants the value of experience in schools which were not in what is called the higher social grade. Without imposing any loss of status or emoluments we insisted from time to time on transfers, but that is a very different thing from asking teachers to sign away their rights and to undertake that in no case will they make any objection against transfer. I think that is objectionable.

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  What we are concerned with here is the degrading of a teacher—something which involved loss of status and emoluments. The Lord Advocate pointed out that there would be delay under our proposal in dealing with a case of that kind. He referred to the necessity for three weeks' notice, to the conditions as to half the members of the committee being present and a two-third majority and so forth. I believe it is right that, in the case of a serious transfer, action should be deliberate and not hastily taken. The school board in Glasgow had its own rules for the purpose of giving timeous notice in these cases and securing that there would be no rushing in such a matter but that transfer if decided upon would be deliberate. Then the Lord Advocate said that our proposal would be unworkable and pointed out that there were 28,000 teachers in Scotland. He suggested that it would not be possible to work our proposal, and also that it would be detrimental to educational efficiency. I wish to say in reply that the school board of Glasgow had, even in my time, 100 large schools, and a very large number of teachers to deal with, and we did not find anything unworkable in this connection, nor would such a Clause as that now proposed have made our system unworkable.
  During the time that I was in charge of the administration I cannot recall more than two or three cases in which we made transfers of this kind, involving reduction of status or emoluments. Indeed, the Lord Advocate gave his case away when he said that it was difficult to find a case that had been taken to law. That is true, although there may have been injustices which have never been taken to law, but have been borne silently by those concerned. He further gave away his case when he paid tribute to the discretion and humanity with which our educational affairs were administered. As to finding round pegs in square holes, we did not seek to remedy such cases by the degradation of the teacher. We sought a round hole for the round peg and a square hole for the square peg. In speaking of administrative difficulties the Lord Advocate is really building stumbling blocks beforehand. So far from being detrimental to the efficient administration of education in Scotland, I believe that the proposal
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  now before the House would prevent injustices, and promote efficiency.
  5.38 p.m.
  Sir HENRY FILDES: I wish to join in the appeal which has been made to the Secretary of State, to accept this new Clause or something similar to it. I do so for a different reason from that which has already been advanced. Like most Members for Scottish constituencies, I am in constant communication with the Scottish Office, and it has been amazing to me, during my comparatively limited experience as a Member for a Scottish division, to find the number of occasions on which the Secretary of State has to tell us that he has "no power to intervene" in certain matters. I realise that this House votes practically half the cost of education in Scotland, and it appears to me that the Secretary of State ought to welcome some chance to have at the disposal of his Department a remedy for cases of injustice without forcing an appeal to the law of the land.
  The Opposition have intimated that they are prepared to leave the wording of an Amendment on these lines to the Secretary of State and have suggested that it could be introduced in another place From all points of view, it is desirable that the position of the Secretary of State should be strengthened. There are many cases in which the House of Commons is making great financial contributions and the only control which the House of Commons has in these matters is through the Secretary of State for Scotland who repeatedly tells us that he has "no power to intervene." Here is a case in which the Secretary of State could remedy these grievances as far as his own Department is concerned, and in my opinion if he took that step it would have the approbation of a large majority of Members of all parties in the House.
  5.43 p.m.
  Mr. CASSELLS: I feel constrained to intervene in this Debate in view of references which have been made to the well-known Lenzie case. I represent the county of Dumbarton and I assure hon. Members that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling and Clackmannan, Western (Mr. T. Johnston) was not going too far when he said that in the county of Dumbarton there was a feeling of public indignation with regard

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  to that case. I wish to address this question to the House. Is it admitted that, in many cases, you may have grievances on the part of teachers who are liable to be degraded? If so, is it possible for these aggrieved parties to exercise any right of relief either under an Act of Parliament or at common law through the courts? As a member of the legal profession I am rather astonished at the statement of the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Guy). He said that this Clause was not the best possible remedy, and he and I are at one on that point; but he went on to say that every legal wrong should have a remedy.
  Mr. GUY: Should have the appropriate remedy.
  Mr. CASSELLS: I stand corrected. The point which I wish to address to the hon. Member is this: Does he suggest that if this proposal is not accepted by the Government, a teacher faced with the prospect of being degraded has any legal remedy of any kind. That is the difficulty. In cases such as we have placed before the House, the aggrieved party has no remedy. I pass from that point to ask what is the substance of the Lord Advocate's argument against this new Clause? It is that practical difficulties will arise. I invite the attention of the House to Section 24 (1) of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1918, to which the Lord Advocate has referred, dealing with the procedure laid down where a teacher has been dismissed. There we find this:
  "No resolution of an education authority for the dismissal of a certificated teacher from their service shall be valid unless—

  (a) written notice of the motion for his dismissal shall, not less than three weeks before the meeting at which the resolution is adopted, have been sent to the teacher and to each member of the education authority; and

  (b) not less than one half of the members of the education authority are present at the meeting; and

  (c) the resolution is agreed to by two-thirds of the members so present."

  Is it not rather significant that under that Statute it is made abundantly clear that a teacher is not entitled to be dismissed under Section 24 unless certain stipulated notice is given and, most important of all, that the majority against the teacher is not less than two-thirds? Does the Lord Advocate suggest that
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  there is the slightest difference between the Common Law right of a teacher who is dismissed and that of a teacher who is degraded? As the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) pointed out, this involves transfer and degrading in a penal way, and I do not think the Lord Advocate would question that there is justice behind the proposed Clause. Even although it is conceded that there are practical difficulties, it is the duty of the Government to see that the right of the individual citizen of this land is of paramount consideration and importance in this House of representatives. I trust the Secretary of State will reconsider this matter before it proceeds much farther.
  5.47 p.m.
  Sir MURDOCH MACDONALD: While I quite appreciate that the Secretary of State for Scotland cannot accept this Clause, I feel that if the two items of status and emoluments could be separated, he might quite well see his way to making some suggestion as to how the question of emoluments should be met. I have heard the Lord Advocate say that there are 28,000 teachers in Scotland, but I do not suppose that in any one year in all there could possibly be 10 per cent. of those changed from one post to another. If there were even 10 per cent., which would be a large figure, it would mean 2,800. Of those, not more than 5 per cent. would be reductions in status or emoluments in which case the figures would come down from 2,800 to somewhere about 140. Out of a possible total of 140 cases, there would be bound to be a greater number where the teachers would realise that justice was being done by their education authorities and, as a consequence, would not think of appealing to the Scottish Office to help them. If that be so—and I think it seems a reasonable suggestion—the actual number of cases that would probably be tried in a year by the Scottish Office would be very small indeed—possibly at the outside 20 or 30 cases.
  I have known the case of a teacher who, for quite reasonable causes, had to be shifted from the particular school in which he was teaching to a much smaller and more insignificant school, but the education authority in that case—and rightly, in my view—did not interfere with his emoluments. After all, when a teacher is placed in any particular class,

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  it is a very serious matter indeed to be reduced from that class, particularly when a man or a woman in the teaching profession is getting on well in years. It may happen that a teacher would get transferred to another position with lesser emoluments and status, and it does not seem quite reasonable, although it might well happen that the status should be left in the hands of the education authority, to alter the emoluments, one-half of which, after all, come from the Government. I earnestly hone the Secretary of State, if he cannot accept the present Clause, will take into careful consideration whether some suggestion could not be made to the education authorities which would prevent their reducing the emoluments of teachers, at any rate without an appeal being made through the regular channels to himself, so that he should exercise an opinion upon them without causing the necessity of an appeal to the law courts.
  5.53 p.m.
  Mr. GALLACHER: I want to direct attention to one particular point, but before touching on it I would like to say that we cannot find a way out of this difficulty by the expedient suggested by the previous speaker, that when anyone is transferred to a smaller school or degraded his salary should continue as before. That would never work, because if you got to the stage where all those who were being reduced to smaller classes or schools were getting the same emoluments as those in the bigger schools and who were holding more responsible positions, the latter would immediately demand more salary, and so the degrading would express itself eventually in different emoluments. I do not object to any process of keeping up wages when degrading takes place, but that particular suggestion does not solve the problem. The other suggestion, that they should go to the law courts, is an impossible suggestion. I understand that the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Guy) is associated with the law, and if he were honest with himself and his friends, if he has any friends, he would advise them that the last thing they should contemplate doing is to go to the law courts.
  Mr. GUY: No.
  Mr. GALLACHER: Oh, yes; that is the last desperate resort of anyone, and for any teacher who has been degraded or worker who has found himself in difficulties to go to the law courts and there defend his case is impossible. The motto for people who enter the law courts should be, "Abandon cash, all ye who enter here."
  Mr. GUY: If the hon. Member's party got into power, would he close down the law courts?
  Mr. GALLACHER: No, but we would make them free. We would stop the robbery that goes on in the law courts.
  Mr. ERSKINE HILL: Has this anything to do with the question under discussion at this moment?
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: The Speaker will decide any point of Order.
  Mr. GALLACHER: I object to the proposition that the solution of this matter can be found in the law courts. What I want to get at is that the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh said that if anyone was degraded wrongfully, he wanted to see him restored and put if possible into the position from which he had been transferred, but why should he go through that process of being degraded or transferred and then retransferred back again? If this Clause is not accepted, and if the Lord Advocate is going to work out some solution of this question and have an appeal to the Scottish Office, then surely what we should do, wherever there is a proposed dismissal or transference that represents a degradation, is, before the dismissal or transfer takes place, to give an opportunity to the teacher to appeal to the Scottish Office.
  I know that many transferences that take place are justifiable, and in 95 per cent. of these cases those who are being transferred will understand the reason and accept the position, but in cases where there is a feeling of injustice, it is much better to have them considered before the transfer takes place rather khan afterwards, because once it has taken place, those who are responsible for the transfer will use every means in their power to try and justify it. I therefore appeal to the Lord Advocate to take up this question, to accept this Clause, and also to make a reformulation in connection with it that will allow of the prevention of transfers rather than permitting

  669
  injustices to take place and then re-instating the victims after a very considerable amount of injury has been done. That is the point about which I am very concerned, to prevent an injury to any teacher taking place if it is possible to avoid it by preventing an unnecessary transfer.
  5.59 p.m.
  Mr. MATHERS: Before this Debate closes, I want to take a very small part in it, and simply for the reason that the county which I have the honour to represent in this House has been mentioned in the course of the discussion, which arose because of certain conditions that are laid down, to which teachers on appointment must adhere if they are to get the appointment. I know that the principal condition signed by those teachers puts them entirely in the hands of the authority to transfer them, degrade them and reduce their emoluments; it practically puts it into the hands of the authority to do whatever it will with them. I look upon that as a hard condition. To those who have mentioned the Lenzie case and have had some connection with Dumbartonshire, it cannot have been a pleasing thing to know how the name of the county has been bandied about in connection with that case.
  I appeal to the Secretary of State to take such power as will make it impossible for us in West Lothian to have the humiliation that come upon those who are affected by circumstances of that kind. I cannot understand why this proposed new Clause is so strongly resisted. I am sure that if the question were left to a free vote of the House there would be a majority for it, such is the consensus of opinion in its favour. The trade union to which I belong has established in the railway service excellent conditions in respect of appeals against injustice meted out to any member of the staff, and I want to see the same opportunity given to members of the teaching profession to appeal against any condition which they feel is injurious to them. I do not share the view of those who think that the wording of this new Clause is unsatisfactory. It is sound and reasonable, it would be workable, and it would cause very little difficulty.
  6.3 p.m.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Lieut.-Colonel Colville): We make no complaint that there has been such a full discussion on this new Clause. The hon. Member who moved it will remember that in Committee it was indicated that if the proposed Clause were called on the Report stage, a full discussion would take place and a reply would be given. My right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate has replied fully and in detail to this proposal and stated accurately the Government's point of view, so that there is little that I can add. With every desire to protect the interests of anyone who is wrongly used, the Government have given careful consideration to all that has been said, and we are not convinced that there is sufficient evidence before us to justify legislation on the isolated instances that have been mentioned where there is a feeling of unfair treatment.
  We will continue to watch the situation, but we cannot feel there is any justification for bringing forward legislation at the present time in order to correct isolated instances. With the present-day responsible education authorities, it should not be necessary, but I wish to stress that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has given, and is giving, full consideration to all that has been said in relation to instances where there is a feeling of dissatisfaction in regard to transfer. In England there is no such appeal to the central department, even for dismissal. What hon. Members opposite are asking is that we should afford to teachers in Scotland a further privilege. [HON. MEMBERS: "A right!"] It is a privilege which they have over teachers over the Border. In regard to dismissal, they have an appeal to the central department, whereas teachers over the Border have not that privilege.
  Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman suggest that because a wrong is being perpetrated in England we in Scotland should put up with it?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I am not suggesting that. If we were satisfied that such a wrong was being perpetrated and that there was a case for legislation, my right hon. Friend would not hesitate to

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  act. It is relevant to point out that teachers in Scotland have this appeal to the central authority in case of dismissal. I hope that after the full discussion we have had on this point the House will be ready to come to a decision.
  Mr. T. HENDERSON: May I ask the Under-Secretary of State whether the real reason for the refusal to accept this new Clause is the fact that the Government have no desire to give a statutory right to the teachers because of the results that would follow?
  Mr. STEPHEN: Can the Minister tell us the number of persons who lost status and emoluments last year? I asked for that when I spoke in the discussion.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: If I may reply with the permission of the House, I am afraid that I cannot answer that question without notice. The answer to the question of the hon. Member for Tradeston (Mr. T. Henderson) is that the reason he mentioned is not our reason for declining to bring in legislation at the present time.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. SEXTON: I enter this discussion in fear and trembling because I do not
  belong to Scotland. I am glad to know that Scottish teachers have privileges which English teachers have not. It will be an impetus to English teachers to emulate the Scottish teachers and to get more rights for themselves. There is a point that has not been mentioned in the Debate which is vitally important to Scottish and English teachers, especially to the older teachers. Teachers' superannuation is based upon salary. If a teacher is degraded and his emoluments are reduced during the later years of his teaching, it will seriously affect his superannuation. So serious is this loss that I would beg the Lord Advocate to try and do something to give teachers the right of appeal. They have the right of appeal in cases of dismissal, which means loss of salary. They ought to have the same right when they are degraded, for not only do they then lose emoluments, but they are in danger of losing part of their pension. Justice demands that they should have the right of appeal in that case.
  Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  The House divided: Ayes, 111; Noes, 203.

  Division No. 268.]

  AYES.

  [6.10 p.m.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Pritt, D. N.

  Adamson. W. M.

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Quibell, D. J. K.

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Hopkin, D.

  Riley, B.

  Bonfield, J. W.

  Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

  Ritson, J.

  Barr, J.

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Rowson, G.

  Batey, J.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Benson, G.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Seely, Sir H. M.

  Broad, F. A.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Sexton, T. M.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Lathan, G.

  Shinwell, E.

  Burke, W. A

  Lawson, J. J.

  Short, A.

  Cassells, T.

  Leach, W.

  Silkin, L.

  Chater, D.

  Lee, F.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Cove, W. G.

  Leonard, W.

  Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

  Daggar, G.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Dalton, H.

  Macdonald. G. (Ince)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

  MacDonald. Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Stephen, C.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Davies. S. O. (Merthyr)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Day, H.

  MacLaren, A.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Dobbie, W.

  Maclay, Hon. J. P.

  Thorne, W.

  Ede, J. C.

  Maclean, N.

  Thurtle, E.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  MacNeill, Weir, L.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Mander, G. le M.

  Viant, S. P.

  Flides, Sir H.

  Marklew, E.

  Walker, J.

  Flatcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  Marshall, F.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Foot, D. M.

  Maxton, J.

  Welsh, J. C.

  Frankel, D.

  Messer, F.

  Westwood, J.

  Gallacher, W.

  Milner, Major J.

  White, H. Graham

  Gardner, B. W.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Whiteley, W.

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Morrison, Rt. Hn. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Paling, W.

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Parker, J.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Groves, T. E.

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hardie, G. D.

  Potts, J.

  Mr. John and Mr. Mathers.

  NOES.

  Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)

  Emmott, C. E. G. C.

  Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

  Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Morgan, R. H.

  Albery, Sir I. J.

  Errington, E.

  Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

  Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

  Erskine Hill, A. G.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Munro, P.

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Fox, Sir G. W. G.

  Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

  Assheton, R.

  Furness, S. N.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

  Gibson, C. G.

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Goodman, Col. A. W.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Penny, Sir G.

  Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

  Granville, E. L.

  Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

  Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Pickthorn, K, W. M.

  Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Plunge, L. F.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Power, Sir J. C.

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Guinness, T. L. E. B.

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Blindell, Sir J.

  Gunston, Capt. D. W.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Hanbury, Sir C.

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Hannah, I. C.

  Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Bull, B. B.

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan

  Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry)

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

  Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

  Hopkinson, A.

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

  Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

  Samuel, Sir A. M. (Farnham)

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir R. S.

  Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Sanderson, Sir F. B.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Br.W.)

  Howitt, Dr. A. B.

  Scott, Lord William

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Shakespeare, G. H.

  Channon, H.

  Hudson, R. S. (Southport)

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

  Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hunter, T.

  Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'If'st),

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Jackson, Sir H.

  Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Clarke, F. E.

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Clarry, Sir Reginald

  Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Colfox, Major W. P.

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

  Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

  Kimball, L.

  Spens, W. P.

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Kirkpatrick, W. M.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm''d)

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Leckie, J. A.

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff(W'st'r S.G'gs)

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton. (N'thw'h)

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.)

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Levy, T.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Crooke, J. S.

  Lindsay, K. M.

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

  Cross, R. H.

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Touche, G. C.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Train, Sir J.

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C.

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Tree, A. R. L. F.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L.(Hull)

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  MacDonald Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.)

  Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

  Dawson, Sir P.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Warrender, Sir V.

  De Chair, S. S.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  McKie, J. H.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

  Making, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Withers, Sir J. J.

  Drewe, C.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Duncan, J. A. L.

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Mr. James Stuart and Dr. Morris-

  Emery, J. F.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Jones.

  CLAUSE 2.—(Grant of employment certificates.)
  6.18 p.m.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: I beg to move, in page 2, line 11, after "authority" to insert "in duplicate."
  When this question was under consideration in Committee the view was generally
  674
  expressed that employment certificates should not be given to employers alone, and following an undertaking which I then gave I am now moving this Amendment to provide that the certificates shall be issued in duplicate to the parent of the child.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made: In page 2, line 11, after "employer," insert "and to the parent."
  In line 14, leave out "or guardian."—[The Lord Advocate.]
  6.20 p.m.
  Mr. FOOT: I beg to move, in page 2, line 15, to leave out from "satisfied" to "after," in line 17.
  The words which it is proposed to leave out are:
  "after consultation with the local committee for juvenile employment, if any, and."
  I know the view may be taken that we should not cut out anything from the Bill which may possibly obstruct exemptions, and that is a view with which I have a good deal of sympathy, but I do not think that this necessity for consultation with the committee for juvenile employment will be a particularly formidable obstruction to the flow of exemptions, though I am convinced that it may be a nuisance to education authorities. I think it is reasonable that there should be general consultation. After all, each education authority will have to make up its mind about the standard it is going to set in the matter of beneficial employment. It will, so to speak, have to draw a certain line and to say that jobs which come above that line shall be regarded as beneficial employment and those which fall below it shall not. It is perfectly reasonable that in settling these standards the education authority should enter into consultation with this committee, but it seems to me that the proposal in the Clause goes further than that. As I read the words they mean that in every single case an education authority before granting an exemption certificate must apply to the local committee for juvenile employment and get their approval; at any rate they have to consult with the committee. That seems to be imposing too many formalities. Obviously, it will be a nuisance to an education authority in one of the larger cities, which may have to deal with hundreds, or even thousands, of applications for exemptions, if consultation must take place in every individual case. By all means let there be some general consultation, but not consultation in every case.
  6.23 p.m.
  Mr. GUY: I beg to second the. Amendment.
  676
  I am glad to have the opportunity of doing so, because I put down this Amendment in Committee and I lost the opportunity of moving it owing to a very curious circumstance. The Government had put down the same Amendment, but wished to add other words, and thereby I lost my opportunity to move. I support the Amendment for the reasons given by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot). I have made inquiries in Edinburgh and am informed that there might be as many as 3,000 applications for exemption, and in Glasgow I understand there might be 10,000 applications. From the administrative point of view it would be quite unreasonable to require consultation with the committee in every case. It would throw an unnecessary burden upon the committee and would hold up the machinery of the Bill. I wish to add that in nothing I have said and in nothing, I understand, the hon. Member for Dundee has said, is it desired to cast any reflection upon the useful work done by these committees. I have been reading the report of the Edinburgh committee. They have undoubtedly done very useful work in a number of cases, and I wish them to have the opportunity of continuing that work, but I think it would be interfered with if they had to be consulted in every case.
  6.25 p.m.
  Mr. LEONARD: The angle from which this point has been discussed so far has been that of the education authorities having to consult these employment committees in every case, but the last speaker stated quite clearly that he did contemplate that some cases should still be allowed to have contact with these committees. If any cases are to have the advantage of contact with these committees why should not that advantage be extended to all cases? It is true that there may be thousands of boys and girls leaving the classes at different periods, but there are district juvenile committees functioning in the large centres; it is not a case of consulting one central committee only, there will be a number of committees. I have had the honour to sit with men and women who have given service on these committees, and they have on many occasions gone to tremendous trouble to deal

  677
  with the peculiar circumstances attendant upon the case of some one child, and I do not think the question of introducing difficulties into the administration should overshadow the outstanding point of the needs of the child itself. Administration should be secondary to the question of the advantages which can be given to the child.
  The Under-Secretary will remember that I raised this matter in Committee with special regard to the fact that the words "if any" appear in the Clause. It is to be regretted that there are some parts of the country which have not got committees to give this guidance, and I hope we may be told what alternative machinery may be brought into being in order to ensure that guidance may be given. Another point I wish to emphasise is that these committees are to be brought in at the end of the investigations into whether a certificate should be granted. I should like to see them operating not at the end but at an earlier stage of the proceedings, in order that there may be a really good chance of ascertaining the qualities and the aptitudes of a child. My personal inclination is towards setting up machinery to give all children who contemplate leaving school much longer contact with the juvenile employment committees than they have. Contact with them at present is only transitory, as they leave school, and in the main through the facilities afforded by Employment Exchanges. As a craftsman myself I would point, out that these committees assist numbers of young people to enter particular occupations. They are particularly fitted to determine whether a child or a group of children will suit given work.
  I happen to be a cabinet maker, and I am aware that the cabinet-making industry contains about six different branches of trade. In all the branches, I have over and over again seen young boys come into one trade for which their aptitude was not entirely suited, although it was suited to a different branch of the trade. I hope that it will be possible for these committees, through the medium of administration, to be brought into contact with the child at the earliest possible moment, and that education authorities will take their guidance in respect of any child directly from them, before they deal with the other
  678
  points necessary as to where the children shall be located in industry.
  6.31 p.m.
  Mr. McKIE: After the speech of the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Guy), who has so unexpectedly supported this Liberal Amendment, perhaps another private Conservative Member might be allowed to say one or two words briefly against him. As my hon. Friend was closing his speech, I tried to put a question to him, but he did not give me the opportunity to bring out rather more fully the reasons why he so warmly espoused the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot). I was glad to hear the speech delivered by the hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. Leonard), who spoke from first-hand knowledge. He knows how essential it is to have all the facts of the case fully investigated in dealing with this matter. It is necessary to call in the most unbiased and unprejudiced minds in order to consider the rights and wrongs, and merits and demerits, of the various cases which come up for beneficial employment certificates.
  Speaking as a private Member from the Conservative benches, I hope that the Government will resist the Amendment, about which one or two hon. Members seem to have a bee in their bonnets. I look forward very much to hearing the speech of the learned Lord Advocate, or whoever will speak from the Government Bench upon this matter. So far as any lay mind can be satisfied, I am satisfied, although I have not the benefit of the keener legal acument of my hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh. Perhaps on this occasion he cannot see the wood for the trees, when he says that we are going in for clumsy administration which will double or treble the necessary work. Perhaps the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) will say a word. It is necessary in large centres, where these committees exist for the sole purpose of investigating the opportunities for juvenile employment, that the committees should be called in now to tackle the work that has to be done, and in regard to which they may be expected to have the best and first-hand knowledge. I hope that the Government will resist the Amendment, in which case I shall certainly give them my support.
  6.35 p.m.
  Mr. HUNTER: I also hope that the Government will resist the Amendment. I have had experience of educational authorities and of advisory committees, and I think it is necessary that there should be consultation with advisory committees. It would be foolish to give exemption to a child if the advisory committee were aware that thousands of boys and girls past school age were waiting for such jobs. It would merely intensify the situation to take a child away from school too early and thereby prevent someone who had already left school from getting the situation. There are no administrative difficulties, and it is easy to keep connection between the education authorities and the juvenile advisory committees. It is an essential and valuable part of the work that you should keep closely in touch with these bodies, because it will enable you to prevent unnecessary exemptions, and to see that those who have already left school have an opportunity of employment.
  6.36 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: We cannot accept this Amendment, and the reasons I will be very glad to give to the House. Local committees for juvenile employment have an intimate knowledge of labour conditions and of the type of child likely to be suitable for each branch of industry. As the hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. Leonard) pointed out, the juvenile advisory committees, of which there are 32 in Scotland, are doing most useful work in, I will not say all, but nearly all, industrial centres in Scotland. I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour takes a keen personal interest in the work of these committees, and that he is satisfied that they serve a most useful function in helping young people into suitable employment. It may be that some hon. Members disagree with having in the Bill provisions for exemption in respect of beneficial employment, but it is only right that we should take advantage of the machinery which exists, to see that the jobs into which the young people go are suitable.
  As regards the junior Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot), we do not share his view that this would be administratively impossible. It is true that in the conferences which were held with local authorities in Scotland to discuss the provisions
  680
  of the Bill some of the authorities expressed the view that there might be difficulties in working the provision, but that view has not been strongly pressed in all the weeks which have followed. The reason is, I think, that on closer examination they have felt that it would not be difficult to operate this provision. There are a number of ways in which the advice of the juvenile advisory committees could be obtained without adding to administrative difficulties. Members of the juvenile advisory committees could sit with members of the local authority upon the sub-committees which deal with questions of exemption. There are other ways which I could suggest. I agree with the hon. Member for St. Rollox that the committees should not be brought in merely as a last resort. I believe that the House will agree with me that the provision which we have put into the Bill for utilising the useful machinery which is now in existence should be preserved, and that the Amendment should not be accepted.
  6.39 p.m.
  Mr. MAXTON: I cannot resist the kindly invitation which was offered by my hon. Friend and colleague the Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie) that I should participate in the Debate and offer my observations. I am in a little difficulty about the Amendment, because I think the whole question of exemptions is so preposterous and stupid that I propose to vote against the Bill in its entirety. I cannot make up my mind whether the Motion or the Amendment is the more obstructive to the operation of the Measure. If I could be informed which would be the more objectionable to the authorities operating the Bill I would support that one. I would put the greatest difficulties in the way of operating the exemption system.
  6.41 p.m.
  Mr. WESTWOOD: Only one consideration weighs with me in the vote which I shall cast; it is not so much a question of making difficulties for the Government as of doing what I think is best for the children, and of improving the Bill and enabling the Government to do what is right in this direction. I am satisfied that the work of the juvenile advisory committees is good; I wish only that we had taken more advantage of them, so far as employers and children are concerned,

  681
  and that there were more of them. It is not only the advice which is given to the child which is important, but the follow-up work, which is so useful in helping children as to the industries they go to and the industries they remain in.
  Very useful work is being done in Kirkcaldy, where the officials are doing their best in the interests of the children, who are invited to come back repeatedly. Juvenile advisory centres report upon the work on which they are engaged, and in many instances they have placed children in satisfactory jobs. I am glad that the Government are resisting the Amendment, and I think that the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) would be wise to ask leave to withdraw it. The juvenile advisory committees are not perfect, and in many instances they are only in embryonic stage, but they are doing useful work. The Government have done right in resisting the Amendment.
  Amendment negatived.
  6.43 p.m.
  Mr. JAMES BROWN: I beg to move, in page 2, line 18, after "child" to insert "with reference to the occupation proposed."
  The words I am proposing to insert would supplement the words, which are already in the Clause,
  "that the employment will be beneficial to the child."
  If I did not know the turns which Debates sometimes take, I should think that this Amendment would be accepted without any words of mine or of any other Member. An hon. Friend of mine said to me: "There will be no difficulty about your Amendment." I said, "You had better wait and see." I have hopes that this Amendment will be accepted, because it is a small one which would do great good to the children. It will give protection which the children now do not have. I am not reflecting upon the local authorities; probably 97 per cent. of them would act justly in any matter which came before them, and would discriminate as to employment which was really beneficial. "Beneficial" is a good word, but when it is attached to what it is attached to here we disagree with it. We do not think that the work would be beneficial to the children in many cases; it might be beneficial in many directions, but not to the children. I know that hon.
  682
  Members are anxious that the children should be protected.
  The spirit of what we are asking is highly necessary. All that we ask is that the medical authorities should decide whether the child is fit for the employment that is offered. Surely they will be able to judge whether the child is really fitted for the employment. Exemptions are here, and will remain, but we want to make them as tolerable as possible for the children themselves. We want to be sure that any employment into which the child may enter will not be of a blind-alley nature or of a degrading nature, such as going round with milk or bread in the morning or distributing newspapers, and other occupations that are not so sane as these. We do not want the child to be put into a blind-alley occupation and thereby prevented from obtaining better employment such as might be obtained if the parents were only a little more patient and if the child were less impatient to enter into employment.
  In all the essential trades there is the protection of trade union regulations, and children are not allowed to enter these occupations until they are 16. We do not, therefore, trouble about engineering, electrical engineering, or any other occupations where there are trade union agreements; but there are other occupations, like mining, agriculture and the textile trades. As regards mining, I do do not think that any Member here would wish to see a child of tender years entering the mines. The mines at the moment are denuded of many of their employés; indeed, in the county which I represent more than a third of them have been out of employment since 1924; but mining is a highly dangerous occupation both for the man and for the boy. I am assured, on the authority of the inspector for the North of England, that in the case of boys in the mines the number seriously injured and killed is almost double what it is in the case of the men, the percentages being 10.75 in the case of boys and 5.62 in the case of men. The amount of employment that is now open to boys in the mines is not so very plentiful. Machinery has taken many men and boys out of the mines, and any employment that is left in the mines is of a highly dangerous character.
  With regard to agriculture, I know there is a good deal of opposition from

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  many hon. Members, because many think that children should assist the family income at seasonable times by entering into some sort of employment in agriculture. I do not deny that occasional work on the land may be good for the child, but the farmer does not always employ the child because of the good it is going to do the child; he employs the child because he thereby gets cheap labour, and it is because we are afraid of exploitation of the child in agriculture that we do not want to see children employed in that industry. In the textile industries there are departments of work which are not altogether healthy at all times.
  In any case, whether in regard to mines, agriculture or the textile trades, the Amendment would not take away anything, but would only provide that the medical officer of the district should have the first voice in this matter, and should have regard to the nature of the employment that is offered to the child. Everyone knows that the years between 14 and 16 are the most critical years in the child's life. Character is beginning to be formed; a different outlook on life is beginning; and we want the child to be disturbed as little as possible during those years. Therefore, in the name of common sense and common humanity, in the name of everything that is good and great, in the name of our great system of Scottish education, which has for so long held up its head, I trust that the Lord Advocate will accept the Amendment and add this one little thing to the Bill, so that the child may have a little more protection than seems to be provided at present.
  6.52 p.m.
  Mr. HARDIE: I think that, of all the Amendments that have appeared since we began discussing this Bill, none is of more importance than that which my right hon. Friend has moved, because it is at this point that we are interrupting the child's natural right to that continuous access to accumulated knowledge which we call education. The words which my right hon. Friend seeks to add would come after the provisions as to consideration by the medical officer of health and the physical condition of the child, which relate to the question whether the employment offered would be beneficial to the child. There is a point to which I want to get the Lord Advocate to apply
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  his mind once more—I asked him to do so in Committee—and that is with regard to the responsibility that rests with the medical officer. What is the medical officer asked to do when he is asked by any education authority to inspect a number of children? He is not asked to say whether a child is fit in the general sense; he is not asked to say what defect there is, if any, in the child; all that the medical officer is called upon to do under this Measure is to say whether or not the child is fit for a certain occupation that is being offered to that child. The governing factor in the mind of the medical officer is the occupation that is offered to the child, because he will not be asked to inspect the child unless he is first told to what occupation the child is going.
  If the wording is allowed to pass in its present loose form, the medical inspection will amount to nothing so far as medical inspection is concerned. In the schools from which these children will be taken, medical inspection has already been going on, but not with reference to the filling of a job by the child. The medical inspection in schools has been on the question of health—whether or not the child is suffering from malnutrition, or whether the health of the child is such as to interfere with the assimilation of what is being imparted by the teachers in the school; it has not had reference to any position offered to the child. In this Bill we are departing from that line of general health, and are giving the medical officer one view only—the occupation offered to the child. I do not know anything about what the legal mind is trained to do, but I know the results of that training when I come up against it. I know something of what happens in the medical mind. I know that, the moment you give the medically trained mind any hint at all in regard to the application of its science, the view or opinion that it forms is immediately prejudiced. The professional type of mind especially is influenced in this way. If Scotland's great reputation in the matter of education is to continue, we shall require to get something done in relation to this matter.
  I want to draw attention also to the provision that the employment must be beneficial to the child. What employment can be beneficial to a child the development of whose mind is interrupted?

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  What is beneficial to any country that interrupts the education of its people? No long view is being taken of this question. If we took the educational point of view of our forefathers, as some of us still do, there would be no reference here to the question of a child earning money; the basis would be an educational basis alone; but it has always been in the minds of the Tories, or Conservatives, as they call themselves, to prevent the working-class child from getting freedom through education—for real freedom can only come through education. Throughout the last 50 years, while we have been making progress in Scottish education, we have found the Tories trying to put a sprag in the wheel in order to stop it, and the method now is to use the economic conditions of the home to destroy the educational opportunities of the child. The child cannot go to the medical officer for inspection until the parent has applied, and the only reason for the parent applying is because of the economic conditions in the home. The medical officer is therefore related to the economic conditions in the home from which the child comes, and you go back to economic conditions, and not to conditions related to education. I do not know why this Bill was ever called an Education Bill; it is the economic condition of affairs that forces the parent or the child into this position.
  Who is to determine whether the employment will be beneficial to the child? The medical man cannot do so, because he has never done the kind of labour which is to be offered to the child. What is to be the nature of the recommendation? The medical man may say that the child is a strong boy or girl, able to lift so many pounds, but there is another side to the question of employment, and that is the mental side. Here we are interrupting both the mental and the physical development of the child. All brains do not develop at the same speed; there are some that do not waken up until they are well in their teens. But when they do they prove to be some force. The same thing happens with the physical condition. Some children take a long time to build up bone and muscle, but when they do they count. I hope that the Lord Advocate is going to give some further consideration to this question of what he means by interrupting
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  the education of the child. There are various kinds of murder, but the worst kind that I know is that committed by individuals who try to prevent children from having the best education which the world can give them.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: Because this is essentially a matter of drafting, involving no question of principle, I do not feel justified in detaining the House a moment longer than to say that I am prepared to accept the Amendment.
  7.2 p.m.
  Mr. WESTWOOD: May I thank the Lord Advocate for fulfilling to the full a pledge which was given in Committee? This is of importance to the children in view of the fact that a child may be mentally and physically fit for a particular class of work and may be altogether unsuited to another class of work. That is the reason why the Amendment was on the Order Paper in Committee, but owing to a misunderstanding was not called, and a pledge was given in regard to the Report stage.
  Amendment agreed to.
  7.3 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I beg to move, in page 3, line 5, after "certificate," to insert:
  "and shall also require such undertakings from the employer as they think necessary for enabling them to satisfy themselves that the employment has not, by reason of any change in the conditions thereof or for any other reason, ceased to be beneficial to the child."
  Hon. Members will be aware that in Sub-section (5) of Clause 2 there is a provision that an education authority when granting an employment certificate shall require an undertaking from an employer in regard to matters connected with the welfare of the child. They will be aware also that in Sub-section (2) (c) of Clause 3 it is provided that a certificate shall cease to have effect if changes are made in the nature of the employment which renders it non-beneficial. Now we propose that the education authority should require also from the employer any undertakings which may he necessary to enable them to satisfy themselves that the employment does not at any time cease to be beneficial. I hope that this Amendment will commend itself to the House.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 3.—(Provisions with respect to employment certificates ceasing to have effect.)
  7.5 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I beg to move, in page 3, line 38, after "effect," to insert:

  "(a) if the child in respect of whom it was granted does not enter the service of the employer named in the certificate within twenty-one days after the date stated therein as the date from which the certificate is to have effect; or

  (b)."

  Sub-section (1) of Clause 3 provides that an employment certificate shall in certain circumstances cease to have effect. It is now proposed to extend the Sub-section for a possible isolated case. It is possible that there would be such cases where a child obtains a certificate, leaves school and then decides, or his parents decide, not to take the employment. In our view a certificate should not go on being valid for an unlimited period in such cases. We therefore propose to provide that in the event of such cases arising the certificate should be cancelled after 21 days if the child does not take up employment. I hope again that the Amendment will commend itself to the House.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: In a few words I can say on behalf of the Opposition that we cordially welcome the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 3, line 38, leave out from "child," to "ceases," in line 39:—[Lieut.-Colonel Colville.]
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I beg to move, in page 4, line 31, to leave out from "school," to the end of the Sub-section.
  This is a drafting Amendment. The words proposed to be left out provide that where a child has had an employment certificate he shall nevertheless be deemed to have attained the minimum age for insurance. It is now proposed to make this provision in an, extended form and to include it in Clause 17. This Amendment, therefore, is simply to clear the way in order that we may move the Amendment to Clause 17.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: We agree.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made: In page 4, line 38, after "ceasing," insert "by virtue of the provisions of this Section."
  In line 39, leave out "by the employer."
  In page 5, line 3, leave out "of the certificate and."—[Lieut.-Colonel Colville.]
  CLAUSE 4.—(Limitation of power of exemption under act, of 1901.)
  7.9 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I beg to move, in page 5, line 11, to leave out "in his," and to insert "at."
  We now come to an Amendment which is not merely a drafting Amendment, but one of some interest to the House as a whole. Clause 4 provides that exemption from the obligation to attend school may be granted
  "for the purpose of enabling the child to give assistance in his home"
  where the education authority
  "are satisfied that by reason of any circumstances existing in the home it would cause exceptional hardship to require the child to attend school."
  I want hon. Members for a moment to draw their thoughts away from the large cities to the rather sparsely populated parts, particularly to the crofting districts in the north and west where great difficulties may have to be met by smallholders and crofters if in times of hardship they are unable to get temporary assistance from their children over 14. It should be borne in mind that in any case they will not be able to get assistance from children under 14, but if the Bill passes into law in its present form it would not be proper for an education authority to give exemption to a child between 14 and 15 to assist his parents in an emergency about the home as distinct from actually under the roof of the home. It has been represented to us—and we have thought it wise to give careful consideration to these representations—that where a crofter is living in an isolated district and is taken ill, or otherwise incapacitated, and is prevented from attending to his croft, it would cause great hardship if his child aged 14 or over were not able to help him with his croft. This appears to be a case for which we ought to provide, for such a smallholder or crofter could not get outside assistance very readily. Where it might be possible for a man differently situated to get some help on such an

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  occasion, we feel that it would cause real hardship to many crofters if they could not get temporary assistance from young people over 14.
  The change of wording will not extend the Clause sufficiently to enable the children to go into employment in the sense of paid employment, or to take the place of parents when the parents are on hired service. It is the intention that when parents themselves are by illness or other cause placed in a really difficult position and ask for this temporary relief, they shall be able to get it. The fact that the education authority must be satisfied that it is exceptional hardship will prevent there being too many cases. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) shakes his head. He is afraid that there might be such a demand that all the children would be exempted. We do not take that view. The very word "exceptional" would prevent that happening. It would not be exceptional if all cases were exempted.
  Mr. COVE: Is the local authority checked?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: The hon. Member asks if there is any check on the local authority. We believe that there is a very real check to see that such a provision is carried out. Under the first proviso to Section 3 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1901, an education authority is bound to keep a register containing the names of children to whom exemption has been granted. A statement showing the number of exemptions granted is annually submitted to the Scottish Education Department by each authority, and from this statement the Department will be in a position to see whether there is any undue fluctuation in the number of exemptions granted in any particular year. If the fears which were in the mind, of the hon. Gentleman when he shook his head sadly were justified, it would be shown in the statement which would go to the central Department.
  Mr. COVE: What do you do then?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: Again the hon. Member anticipates me. He wants to know what is the final sanction. In this case it is very complete if it should be necessary to exercise it. The Act of 1901 gives the Department power to require
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  an education authority to recall any exemption that it has granted and, if the authority fails to do so, the Department is empowered to withhold or reduce the grant payable to the authority, so that there is a very complete check.
  Mr. WESTWOOD: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give any single instance where a local authority has ever yet had its grant docked?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: No, for the extraordinarily good reason that they have trusted local authorities to operate the provision wisely. In the event of their not operating it wisely, the barometer will at once show what has happened and the Central Department can put the check into force. The Government have come to this decision in order to assist a class of people who are not too well off and who, unless they get some special assistance at certain times of the year, are hard put to it to make ends meet. If we are going to get the good will of these people in relation to our educational system, it is necessary that we should have this Amendment in the Bill.
  7.17 p.m.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: I have seen many quick-change artistes on education, but I never saw anything to beat this. In Committee the Noble Lady the Member for West Perthshire (Duchess of Atholl) on 12th May tabled ark Amendment in the following terms:
  "The exemption is granted for the purpose of enabling the child to give temporary assistance in seasonal occupations, provided that such exemption shall not be granted in respect of any child of whom a medical officer reports that he is not physically fit for such employment."
  In other words, provided that the child was physically fit—it has nothing whatever to do with the employer—the local authority was to be empowered to give wholesale and retail temporary exemption in agriculture. The Under-Secretary and the Lord Advocate could not face up to a thing like that. The Under-Secretary frankly and openly told the Noble Lady that the Government could in no circumstances accept the proposal as it was a clear violation of their election pledges, it was going to open the door to wholesale and retail exemption and it would destroy the whole purpose of the Bill. One of the most amazing things that

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  happened upstairs was that, immediately the Under-Secretary had finished, her Grace tamely, meekly and humbly said, "After that speech I have no more to say," and sat down. I thought there was a nigger in the woodpile somewhere. I thought there was something wrong, and here it is. They got rid of the Noble Lady in the Committee stage and now at the last moment they come forward with an Amendment not only to do what she wants, but a jolly sight worse. What are they after? I have a copy of a circular dated 5th March from the Association of County Councils on the subject of these exemptions. They are solemnly of opinion that in these rural areas, where agricultural pursuits still absorb most of the boys leaving school, it is desirable that discretionary power to exempt children between the ages of 14 and 15 in cases where employment can be obtained should be vested in the education authority. That is to say, they are not to be inhibited by anything in the Act of Parliament at all. The association proposed the terms of an amendment and the Government have swallowed it in substance if not in words. The Under-Secretary put the best face on it, but I guess he was jolly unhappy at doing it, if he was happy upstairs.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: The two occasions were entirely different and I was happy on both. The Noble Lady's Amendment was of quite a different nature, relating to paid employment.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman said:
  "We have given it careful consideration but we could not accept it as being in line with the decision to which the Government have come in this matter."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee on Scottish Bills) 12th May, 1936; col. 334.]
  because it is going to introduce a large additional class of children to be exempted from school for the purpose of seasonal employment.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: Paid employment.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: No, you did not say paid employment. That is an afterthought that someone has given you to-day. The point here is that under Clause 4, as the Bill has stood up to this moment, exemption may be given in cases
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  of exceptional hardship in the home. Now what is to happen? It is to be not "in the home" but "at the home" and, unless you are very careful and think what you are doing, you will imagine that this is a mere drafting Amendment. In other words, the child is to be kept away to attend the kirk, to muck the byre and to work on the farm. The reason for this is perfectly obvious. I am simply staggered that the Under-Secretary should, almost at the last moment of the progress of the Bill, attempt to smuggle this kind of thing into it. It simply means that in rural areas, in the Western Isles, in the crofting districts and in a lot of other districts outside, you are going to get every farmer who has a pull on the county council, or on his local representative on the county council, saying, "I have exceptional hardship at my farm." In other words he needs someone to work on the farm, and you are to get children exempted from school, and the crofter's children and poor boys in these rural areas are to be debarred from receiving the benefits, such as they are, of secondary education. Everyone knows the agitation that is continually on foot for what are called potato holidays. In the rural areas, certainly in the potato districts, there is continually pressure on the education authorities for seasonal temporary child labour. Bad as that is, it is only seasonal and only temporary. Here, if you please, the Government, under the pretence that they are bringing in a Bill to extend the school-leaving age, are not content with seasonal or temporary employment for absolutely, as they say, necessary processes in agriculture. It is wholesale and retail exemption.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: In cases of exceptional hardship.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: Not exceptional hardship in the home. It is to be for work at the home. This is in effect the little mother Clause. A child, perhaps a girl, gets exemption. The mother is perhaps dead and the child has to look after younger brothers and sisters. There is a case for that, and no one would shut his eyes to it. There are exceptional cases of hardship where a local education authority is at its wits' end to know what to do. But, granted the exceptional hardships, the child has always to go to the home to meet the exceptional hardship

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  in the home. That is not what is to happen here. She has now to go away and work on the farm. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says, "This is not paid employment. They get no wages for it. That only makes it worse. The Government have yielded to the most reactionary of the local authorities. You get no help from these education authorities in the Western Isles. They propose nothing new. They develop nothing. They help you in no way. At the last moment they come forward and bring pressure on the Government to accept the Amendment and the Government have yielded. I trust that the House will resist this and divide on it, and the onus of what will follow from the acceptance of this Amendment rests with the right hon. Gentleman and his friends.
  7.29 p.m.
  Major NEVEN-SPENCE: The right hon. Gentleman is barking up the wrong tree. He is trying to fix the responsibility for the Amendment on the noble Lady the Member for West Perth (Duchess of Atholl). As a matter of fact it is my little ewe lamb, my Parliamentary first-born, and I hope it is not going to be slaughtered. The right hon. Gentleman was entirely wrong from beginning to end in his diagnosis of the reason for the Amendment. He tried to drag in the so-called potato holidays for the purpose of paid employment, which has nothing to do with this at all. Under the Act of 1901 education authorities have power to grant exemption in necessitous cases between the ages of 12 and 14. The Act of 1918 provided for the raising of the age limit for exemptions in necessitous cases to 13, when the school-leaving age was raised to 15. This Bill goes a step further and raises the age for exemption to 14 in necessitous cases. In the past the power to grant exemption in necessitous cases has been a discretionary one vested in the education authority, and it is fair to say that the powers which they have had have been sparingly and wisely used in the past. What is more, they have used these powers without discrimination between the sexes, and I shall refer to that matter a little later. I have served for several years on an education authority, and when cases for the granting of exemption on account of the necessity of the home have come up
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  they have all been gone into with the utmost care. Consideration has been given to every side of the case; not merely to the question of necessity in the home but to the interests of the child. Whenever a case for exemption has been asked for, and it has been shown that the child had prospects of benefiting from further education, every possible effort has always been made to find some other solution, if possible, and in many cases it has proved to be possible. Whenever the position between granting exemption to a boy or a girl was comparable, a decision was taken according to the circumstances of the case.
  The first point to which I wish to direct the attention of the House is that by substituting a period of one year, that is to say, 14 to 15, in granting exemption in necessitous cases, for a period of two years, from 12 to 14, as has been the case hitherto, you very severely restrict the discretion of the education authority. As the matter stood when the limit was 12 to 14 the education authority very often had the choice of granting exemption either to a boy or girl in the family, and they were able to grant the exemptions to whichever seemed to them, taking all the circumstances into consideration, the more suitable. That choice is gone for all practical purposes. I admit that in cases where children have been born close together a situation might arise in which you might have a boy of 14 and a girl under 15 in the same family, but as the matter now stands, in the case of a girl of 14 and a boy under 15, the young girl would get exemption and the boy would not. That limitation is severe enough.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman want both to get it?
  Major NEVEN-SPENCE: No, I do not want both to get it, but I want the local education authority to exercise discretion in any particular case. The limitation on the discretion of the authority due to cutting down the period to one year is severe enough, but there is a much more obnoxious side of it than that. As the Clause now stands, it will press with particular severity upon individual cases in the more scattered parts of the community, especially in the Highlands and Islands. As soon

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  as this Bill was available inquiries were made, especially in the Highlands and Islands as to whether Clause 4 would cover, in the case of the crofter, illness in the home, or accident or death, and give help on the croft. The answer was, "No," as the Clause now stands.
  Mr. MAXTON: Who gave that answer?
  Major NEVEN-SPENCE: The words in the Clause must be held to cover only cases of assistance within the four walls of the house. That is plain. The suggestion was put forward by these authorities that the words should mean "at home" in order to enable a boy to help on the croft where necessary. There are certain things for the House to bear in mind before coming to a decision on this matter. Take, first of all, the income from a croft. If you take into consideration everything that is sold off the croft, and everything that is produced and consumed on the croft, the income will seldom work out at more than £50 during the course of a year. It stands to reason that with an income of that size there can never be any money available for the hire of labour on the croft. Even if money and hired help were available, in very few crofts indeed would it be possible to accommodate the help so hired. It follows that, in the rural parts of the Highlands and Islands, if any disaster overtakes the family, illness, death, accident, whatever it may be, the family is thrown back upon its own resources. Some hon. Members must have had some personal experiences concerning the conditions. The women very often do as much work as the men, and in some cases more. I have seen women cultivating with a spade in lieu of the work being done by horse and plough. I have seen women harrowing and carrying out all the work of cultivation on a croft and doing work in connection with stock and everything else. Often supplies have to be brought long distances, perhaps three to six miles, and are very often carried on the back to places to which there are no roads.
  Let the House consider what will be involved if Clause 4 is allowed to stand as it is now without Amendment. Education authorities will only be allowed to grant exemption to girls of 14 ostensibly to work in the home, but actually, if hon.
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  Members follow what I have said, the real work these girls will have to do will, in many cases, be on the croft. The education authority will be debarred from exempting a boy of 14, perfectly fit and able, perhaps better able than a girl, to do this work. The authority will not be able in a suitable case to exempt a boy to give assistance in the home. I cannot conceive of anything more preposterously unpractical than that, and I am speaking as one who has had to deal with these cases for many years as a member of an education authority. It may be thought that the objection to the Clause comes from the crofters. Nothing of the sort. I have never heard a word from any crofter in either of my counties. Probably they do not know what is going on at the present time. You do not know anything about the legislation that takes place in these places until it hits you at the back of the neck. There is the well-known case of a one time Member of this House who went to Shetland. He said how dreadful it must be not to know what was going on in London, and received the crushing retort, "It would be a good thing if you in London knew a little more of what is going on in Shetland."
  I deeply resent the charge of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Mr. Johnston) in his insulting reference to backward authorities. The education authorities in the North of Scotland in the Island Counties can stand up to anybody. They are as keen on education as any other authorities in the country and have a very fine record. Take the case of the county of Orkney. What are the two chief exports? Fat stock and professors. I do not think that such a county which has an educational record like Orkney ought to be held up to contempt. We have had reference to what might be expected. What is the actual case with regard to exemptions? In the county of Orkney exemptions between the ages of 12 and 14 for the past two years were 11 permanent, and 11 temporary—22 in a school population of over 3,000. I know from my own personal experience only too well the difficulties of the struggling poor in these sparsely populated parts of the Highlands and Islands. I may have put my case very badly, but I hope that I have succeeded in showing the House that by not accepting this Amendment it will not do any good and may do some harm and

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  cause definite hardship in certain cases. I hope that the House will certainly not do anything to increase the already overwhelming difficulties with which these people have to contend.
  7.43 p.m.
  Mr. MAXTON: I congratulate the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major Never-Spence) upon his chivalry in rushing in to take the responsibility off the Noble Lady. He describes it not as the widow's one ewe lamb, but his one ewe lamb. I should have thought that a Member coming from a great agricultural district would have taken care to see that his lamb had not so many maggots in it. Obviously, it is perforated with All sorts of objections. He has described a very touching picture of the condition of the crofters in the Highlands, which most of us are prepared to accept as being true. In many of the remote counties of Scotland our rural populations are living very mean and penurious lives. It does not reflect Any very great credit, either upon this House or upon the general economic system that it should be so, but we know that it is the fact. I want to ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman this question. He pictures one of these homes. It is in a penurious condition, but some special accident takes place and makes the circumstances even worse. If there does not happen to be a boy or girl of 14 or 15 years when the accident occurs, what happens to the home?
  Major NEVEN-SPENCE: In that case very often what happens is that the home is deserted.
  Mr. MAXTON: The reply of the hon. and gallant Member is that the home is deserted; that the people clear out. They go to the workhouse, I presume. That reflects very little credit on the local authorities in that county. Here is a family living in hard circumstances but managing to get along. Something happens. The head of the house is stricken by illness or taken away by death, and the hon. and gallant Member tells us that the resources of his local authority are so limited, or their desire to help is so little, that it is only by the labour-power of a boy or girl of 14 or 15 that that family can be maintained in doing useful work on the land. I think that is a
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  shocking admission. May I say to the hon. and gallant Member that I do not believe that it happens in more than a negligible percentage of cases?
  I do not want to do anything in this Measure that makes the life of anybody in Scotland harder than it is just now. I do not want to exploit children from 14 to 15, and I do not want children, even in the remote parts, children of the poorest people, to be denied the educational advantages that are available to those who are more favourably placed; but I have to consider exactly how I can meet these things. We think and the majority of hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House think that this type of problem would have been dealt with if allowances of a reasonable kind had been made to the children for their continued year at school. If the hon. and gallant Member had used his exertions at an earlier stage to get the Government to accept an Amendment to that effect he would have had the hearty support of everybody on this side of the House. He said that the exemption only permits of a child being brought home to render service where there is illness in the home, and that the assistance given by the child exempted must be strictly limited to the four walls of the house. I should have thought that where a father was stricken down and there was a big strapping boy of 14, 14½ or nearly 15 years, the eldest member of the family, any intelligent education authority would have said that to exempt that boy in order that he might help his mother to run the croft, was beneficial employment. The hon. and gallant Member shakes his head.
  Am I to understand that beneficial employment is only to be regarded as beneficial employment where the child goes to a particular employer to earn wages, and that it would not be beneficial employment to go home to the croft and assist his own mother, not in doing menial work but in order to get some sense of responsibility? In every rural county education committees would regard that as being beneficial employment, and would be ready to grant an exemption on the main terms laid down in the Bill without the necessity of the Government bringing in this additional Amendment, which is open to all the evils of this child employment problem, which we thought that we had done with in the Committee upstairs. We were led to believe by the

  699
  Minister that this question was settled upstairs. I agree with my right hon. Friend; I do not think it is the sort of thing to which we have been accustomed, that when we have settled a particular point upstairs the Government should come forward and try to alter what has been done in Committee.
  7.51 p.m.
  Mr. ERSKINE HILL: I rise to try to correct what I take to be a misapprehension on the part of the right hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Mr. Johnston). He seems to fear that this Clause might be so interpreted as to include cases of cheap child labour. I have looked at the Clause again and the interpretation I would give to it is clearly one which would exclude any such fear, a fear which I think would have the sympathy of my right hon. Friend the Minister if it was right. The words in the Clause are that the exemption is to be granted for a child to give assistance. The right hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan does not give his assistance in this House, any more than I do; we are paid for it. The words, "give assistance," imply, as far as I am concerned, labour which is not paid for, the sort of labour that a child gives to his parent, particularly in cases where there are exceptional hardships.
  I should like to reassure my right hon. Friend that there is no reason for the fear which he has expressed, so far as I interpret the Clause. The Clause is drawn to limit it only to those cases of exceptional hardship in the home such as were submitted to us very well by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major Neven-Spence). I do not want to detain the House further. All that I would say is that I can see no reason why there should be any distinction drawn between a girl helping her mother in the family in an exceptional case, and a boy who has to do work outside, equally necessary work, for his parent. It is for that reason that I support the Government's Amendment.
  7.53 p.m.
  Mr. WESTWOOD: I was amazed in listening to the last hon. and learned Member, particularly in view of the statement of the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Erskine Hill)
  700
  during the Committee stage, when some of us were arguing that the educational attainments of the child should be taken into consideration in granting of exemption for beneficial employment. The hon. and learned Member was very anxious that he should fulfil the pledges made to the electors in the National Government's General Election manifesto. He said that to give effect to the Amendment that had been moved would be to over-ride the promises made by hon. Members to their constituents that exemption would be granted in the case of beneficial employment. The Clause that we are now discussing has nothing whatever to do with the pledge made with respect to beneficial employment for the child.
  Mr. ERSKINE HILL: I think it has everything to do with the beneficial employment of the child. I think the keeping together of family life, the supporting of the children by the parents and the supporting of the parents by the children, are things which are distinctly and definitely something which has to do with the beneficial employment of the child.
  Mr. WESTWOOD: There is not a word of that, so far as this Clause is concerned. In the Committee stage this Clause was repeatedly referred to as the little mother Clause, and we understood it as that type of Clause. Now, because of the reactionary attitude of the Government in submitting a proposal of this kind, it is to become a little farmer or a little crofter Clause, so far as Scotland is concerned. The English Bill is reactionary enough, but nothing so reactionary as this has appeared in the English Bill. The poorer the children are, particularly in rural districts, the more are they to be robbed of their rights of decent educational opportunity. While we have been opposed to the Bill up to the present stage this action on the part of the Government should compel every real progressive in the House to vote against the monstrous and reactionary proposal now submitted.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: I cannot think that either the hon. and gallant Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major Neven-Spence) or the Minister has fully appreciated the magnitude and consequences of the Amendment. It has been suggested

  701
  that the Amendment will cover only that class which always appeals to the romantic instinct of the House, namely, the crofter in the Highlands and Islands. But there is no restriction in the Amendment to that class. The proposal is to substitute for beneficial employment as a ground for exemption, difficulty in or about the home. It does not matter whether the home consists of a croft or some house which has a factory in a back room, provided the parent is conducting the work. We shall find that behind the screen of crofters' children in the Highlands and Islands there will be crowds of children in the back rooms of houses in the industrial district of Glasgow. Because an upholsterer or a cabinet maker conducts a one-man business in his back room and there is some illness or difficulty, he will draw his child away from school and interrupt his whole education, without any safeguard as to beneficial employment. If that is not the meaning of the proposal, I cannot see that it means anything.
  The Minister gave as a safeguard against this loophole becoming too large, certain provisions in the Act of 1901. I would ask the House to see to what those safeguards boil down. In the first place, the school board under the Act of 1901 must give a return to the Department, but not until the Department calls for it. Therefore, the first thing that happens is that the Department when it sees fit must call upon the school board for a return. Secondly, the Department must make due inquiry and if after making due inquiry the Department is satisfied that the exemption was not justified, it proceeds to call upon the school board to recall such exemption or to take steps to improve the attendance. Finally, if the school board fails to do so within a reasonable time, the Department can withhold the grant. By that time the child will have passed the age at which it can be exempted, the year which is the most vital year in the child's education will have passed, and the whole purpose of this Bill as it applies to that child will have been completely destroyed.
  This Amendment will alter the whole basis of the Bill. It substitutes for the principle of beneficial employment an entirely new principle. The hon. and gallant Member for Orkney and Shetland is convinced that it would be a good thing in his constituency, where, as he
  702
  said, the claims for exemption have been very few. His constituents are wiser than the hon. and gallant Member, because they know that whatever may be the hardships, it is important that the education of a child should not be interrupted in the last critical year. That is a much more serious matter than any hardship which may be caused in the home. I wonder whether he would like his own child to be deprived of the last year of education and have to work on the farm or croft? There will be cases of hardship and difficulty, but I think a much greater hardship will be caused to those children who will be deprived of their educational opportunities if this Amendment is passed.
  8.2 p.m.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: In view of the indignation, real or assumed, which has been shown by hon. Members during the discussion of this Amendment, it is a little interesting to recall that when the Bill was in Committee, Clause 4 was ordered to stand part of the Bill without discussion and without amendment. The purpose of the Amendment is to substitute "at" for "in." The original phrase was "in his home," and it is now proposed to make it "at home." If the indignation of hon. Members is as real as they would have us believe they should have thundered their denunciations against the original Clause as well as against the Amendment which is now proposed, but if that is not the position I can only think that some radical misconception existed as to the precise form of exemption originally dealt with in the Bill. So far as exemptions are concerned, the scheme of the Bill divides them into two wholly distinct chapters, exemptions which are granted for the purpose of beneficial employment, and those limited exemptions which are still allowed to be granted under the Act of 1901. As regards the first class of exemptions, for the purpose of beneficial employment, I should like to emphasise that Clauses 2 and 3 contemplate employment in the normal sense of the term, where the employer is a different person from the parent, where there are questions of wages and hours of work and all the other things associated with normal industrial employment. That is the field in which we are working when dealing with beneficial employment.
  Mr. MAXTON: Do I understand that an employer of labour cannot get his own son into his own factory?
  The LORD ADVOCATE: There might be a special case where the parent is himself the employer of a number of hands. It is conceivable that one person may unite in his own person the two characters of employer and parent, but the distinction which I am endeavouring to draw is a distinction between exemption for beneficial employment, which assumes industrial employment in the normal case, and the quite different type of exemption with which we are concerned in Clause 4. I would ask hon. Members to keep in view the fact that the effect of the provisions of Clause 4 with Clause 1 is to abolish the power of exemption which exists at this moment; that power of exemption from the age of 12 upwards. The first effect of Clause 4 is to wipe out that power and to say that there shall be no more exemptions of that type. The case is defined in terms which were accepted by the Committee when related to the "little mother"; that type of exemption is defined in terms which limits its operation within the narrowest possible field. Exemption can be granted only for the purpose of enabling a child to give assistance at home. It is not a question of being employed at home. It is a question of giving assistance at home.
  Mr. COVE: Is that employment which would come under the term "beneficial employment"?
  The LORD ADVOCATE: The type of occupation which is envisaged by Clause 4 is in an entirely different category from the employment which is dealt with in Clause 2 and described as beneficial employment. I hope hon. Members agree with me that a person, a boy or girl, man or woman, may do useful work in this world without being engaged in industrial employment at home.
  Mr. HARDIE: The question is whether the work done by the child is remunerative. There are many small businesses in which there is a single man working, and they may call for the assistance at any time from any one of his children who may be attending school. Does "assistance" mean something which is not paid for, and is the other to be on a purely remunerative basis?
  The LORD ADVOCATE: I was emphasising the distinction which exists between exemptions for beneficial employment and the type of exemptions under Clause 4. We are concerned here with the abolition of exemptions under the 1901 Act, unless they are granted under two conditions, first, for the purpose of enabling a child to give assistance at home and, second, if by reason of the circumstances existing at home it would cause exceptional hardship to require a child to attend school. These are the conditions, and not one word of criticism was raised in Committee of the application of these conditions to the case of the little mother. The right hon. Member will no doubt assent that where the mother is dying it is right and proper that a girl of 14 should be released from the obligation to attend school in order to discharge the far more important obligation of assisting in the home in such circumstances. May I then put it to him that if it is regarded as right and proper that a girl should be released from the obligation to attend school in domestic circumstances of that kind, a boy of a similar age and capacity should not be denied the opportunity of doing his duty and undertaking his responsibilities if his father is dying or is dead.
  I feel that a great deal we have been hearing from hon. Members to-night has been paying lip service to the idea that it is more important that a boy and girl should attend school than that they should accept in a time of domestic crisis a far more important obligation, more important for the development of character than any amount of schooling—namely, the acceptance of responsibility in relation to the home. That is what the Amendment is designed to effect. It is in no sense associated with the Amendment which we rejected, and to which we are still heartily opposed, in relation to beneficial employment and seasonal occupation. That is in another category altogether, and we are still opposed to it.
  The sole reason for the Amendment is to meet the difficulty that, as the Clause was drafted, it was appropriate to the case of the "little mother," but it was very doubtful whether it was appropriate to the case of what I do not hesitate to call the "little father," the comparable services of the lad to those of the little

  705
  mother. It is in no sense a reflection upon the Government that they have brought forward the Amendment. On the contrary, it is entirely in accord with what has been done in Committee that we should now recognise the difficulties and make this alteration in order to avoid hardships which would otherwise occur. I feel that hon. Members who speak with much knowledge and experience of the conditions of the poor in Scotland are not qualified to speak with the same authority as the hon. and gallant Member for Orkney and Shetland of the conditions which prevail in the sparsely populated areas in many of the Highland counties.
  Mr. GALLACHER: In my constituency there are still a number of hand-loom weavers. The father is old, or dying. Does this mean that a boy of 14 will be allowed to work the loom, to keep it running?
  The LORD ADVOCATE: I am not familiar with the type of case to which the hon. Member refers. I thought the hand-loom had gone out. If such cases exist they must be very few and they would be covered by the Clause as it stands. I should be very surprised if a boy of 14 who has not been trained would be capable of taking his father's place in such an emergency. But let me add that if he is able to do it, if his father is dying and the family is dependent upon the loom being kept going, then I would think very little of him if he did not do it.
  Mr. GARRO JONES: May we leave out of account for a moment the question whether the father is dying, because the father is ill far more often than he dies. If the father is ill for a week or a fortnight, does it mean that he would get a temporary exemption for the child? I would like the Lord Advocate to be good enough, with his usual candour, to give the answer which he knows to be true. Apart from looms, does this not apply to every one-man business, where the parent and the employer are one?
  Mr. MAXTON: What about the bookie's son?
  The LORD ADVOCATE: The House will recall, in connection with the point which has been put to me, that the power to grant the exemption is vested in the discretion of the education authority and is—I say this advisedly—effectively
  706
  checked and controlled by the Scottish Education Department under the Act of 1901. One hon. Member cast some doubt on the efficacy of that central control. I do not for a moment share that doubt, and I am in a position to tell the hon. Member, because I verified it a few moments ago, that the returns as to the number of children exempted are obtained and included in the annual statistics of the Department. They are analysed and challenged, and cases occur every year—not many, I admit, because the exemptions granted are not many—in which the central Department finds it necessary to challenge what an education authority has done in individual cases here and there. I am certain they will continue to do so, and to do so with redoubled vigilance during the early years of the operation of this Bill.
  Further, in answer to the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones), may I be permitted briefly to refer to a later Amendment on the Paper, that in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Mr. T. Johnston), in page 5, line 14? If that Amendment is called, it is my intention, on behalf of the Government, to accept it. The effect of that Amendment would be to limit every exemption under this Clause to the school term during the currency of which the exemption is granted, so that on any view of the matter the exemption would be a very temporary one, perhaps a matter of a, week or two, and at most a matter of a couple of months if the application happened to be made at the beginning of the term. Therefore, I think it is only fair, in view of the way in which the matter has been put to me, to make it plain at this stage not only that this is a wholly exceptional Clause which, as at present drafted, will in my judgment require exceptional treatment, but which will also, if this later Amendment is carried, be narrowed down to a very temporary proposition. Accordingly, I present the whole Clause, in the light of the Amendment which the Under-Secretary has moved, as one which is in no sense concerned with the major purpose of beneficial employment, but the sole purpose of which is to avoid the infliction of a hardship which no one in this House desires or ought to desire to inflict.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. MACLEAN: Before the Division is called, I would like to put a question to the Lord Advocate, but at the same time I wish to take exception to his statement in which he twitted the Opposition with permitting this Clause to go through the Committee stage without dividing upon it, and without putting down any Amendments to it. I would say to hon. Members who took part in the Committee stage that it is not the Opposition which is now amending or seeking to amend this Clause, but the Government themselves, who, having had the Clause drafted to their satisfaction and allowed it to go through the Committee stage without making any suggestion or amending it in any shape or form, are now, almost in the last stage of the Bill, coming before the House with an Amendment which, on their own statement, does not alter the meaning of the Clause as originally drafted, but seeks to extend its scope to bring in young lads whose parents may be in a difficult position either because of illness or for some other reason.
  I put it to the Lord Advocate that the Clause as it stood and as it was accepted in the Committee stage was good enough for the House, and that only at the last minute, due to some influence which has not been revealed to us to-night, have the Government yielded to the crofter elements or the crofters' representatives who wished to some way or another to get cheap labour. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members object. We had information from the hon. and gallant Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major Neven-Spence) as to the purpose of this Amendment, which he claimed was his. He is now the father of the Amendment. He gets the Government to put forward an Amendment which he himself did not think worth while putting forward during the Committee stage. He gets the Government to do the dirty work of the crofter education authorities, and it is they who want this Amendment to be carried. The Lord Advocate twitted us with opposing the Amendment now, and he said our indignation was assumed. I would point out that until he defined the word "at" as meaning "in," our indignation did not arise. Here we have one of the Law Officers of the Crown telling the House on his
  708
  soul and conscience that the word "at," before a law court in this country, would also mean "in." I ask him whether the word "at" is defined by him as having the same meaning as the word "in"?
  The LORD ADVOCATE: I would answer the hon. Gentleman by saying that the word "at" is inserted by this Amendment in place of the word "in" because we think it has a wider meaning. We thought that the words "in his home" might and probably would be read as referring to those operations performed under the roof, that is to say, purely domestic operations. It was with a view to widening the Clause so as to include the homestead that we substituted "at" for "in." I hope I have made myself clear.
  Mr. MACLEAN: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has made his interpretation clear. He will not tie himself down to a definition. lie wishes to widen the scope of the word "in" and he therefore puts in the word "at." Surely he will not claim that there is a local authority in Scotland which will define as tightly as he is now defining it the phrase "in his home" as meaning only under the roof of the home. Take, for instance, the crofters' county, represented by the hon. and gallant Member who claims the father ship of this Amendment. Does the Lord Advocate wish the House to understand that a young girl taken from school to act as the "little mother" in a crofter's house, would only be considered to be exempted if she performed her duties underneath the roof and within the four walls of the house? The Lord Advocate knows there are many duties in the case of a crofter's home which have to be performed outside the house. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is 'home'?"] It is for the Lord Advocate, again, to try to find a definition of "home," but when he asks the House to believe that local authorities in granting exemptions would make their interpretation as strict as he suggests, he is asking the House to believe that the education authorities are worse educated than the pupils to whom they are giving exemptions.
  I hope that the Lord Advocate, the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary will appreciate the fact that "at," in this connection, means "at the home" and not "in the home." It will

  709
  have been noted by hon. Members that the Lord Advocate when challenged would not give us a definition. He would not say that "at" also meant "in" the home. He is only prepared to say that the Government thought it would have that meaning, and he is not prepared to say that, legally, it would have that meaning. He is there as a Law Officer of the Crown, but he cannot say that legally the word "at" also means "in." Yet this Government with their great majority behind them ask us to vote for this Amendment when the Law Officers of the Crown cannot give a legal definition of the meaning of their own Amendment. I trust that when this Amendment goes to a Division the Opposition will be united on this point. I only hope that the results of this proposal will not be such as to bring blushes of shame to the cheeks of the Lord Advocate and the Under-Secretary,
  in view of their persistence in foisting this Amendment on the House.
  Mr. CASSELLS: In view of the reply which the Lord Advocate gave to the last speaker, may we take it that the word "at" is more elastic in its application than "in"? If that be so, will the Lord Advocate give the House his opinion on the definition of the word "assistance"? Does that mean financial assistance or other forms of assistance? I think we are entitled to an answer on that point.
  Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKER (Captain Bourne): I must point out that the Lord Advocate has already spoken twice.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 102; Noes, 138.

  Division No. 269.]

  AYES.

  [8.30 p.m.

  Adams, D.M. (Poplar, S.)

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Richards, R. (Wrexham)

  Adamson, W. M.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Ritson, J.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Hopkin, D.

  Rawson, G.

  Banfield, J. W.

  John, W.

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Barr, J.

  Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

  Sexton, T. M.

  Batey, J.

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Shinwell, E.

  Bellenger, F.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Short, A.

  Benson, G.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Silkin, L.

  Bevan, A.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Broad, F. A.

  Lathan, G.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Brooke, W.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Leach, W.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Buchanan, G.

  Lee, F.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Burke, W. A.

  Leonard, W.

  Stephen, C.

  Cassells, T.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Cocks, F. S.

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Cove, W. G.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Thorne, W.

  Daggar, G.

  MacLaren, A.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Dalton, H.

  Maclean, N.

  Viant, S. P.

  Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

  MacNeill, Weir, L.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Marklew, E.

  Walker, J.

  Dobbie, W.

  Marshall, F.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Ede, J. C.

  Mathers, G.

  Welsh, J. C.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Maxton, J.

  Westwood, J.

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Messer, F.

  White, H. Graham

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  Milner, Major J.

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  Foot, D. M.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

  Gardner, B. W.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Paling, W.

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Parker, J.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hardie, G. D.

  Potts, J.

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Groves.

  NOES.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Asks, Sir R. W.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Cooper, Rt. Hon. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.)

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Bull, B. B.

  Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Cary, R. A.

  Crooke, J. S.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Channon, H.

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Cross, R. H.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Clarke, F. E.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Birchall, Sir J. D.

  Colfox, Major W. P.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Blair, Sir R.

  Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  Blindell, Sir J.

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Dawson, Sir P.

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Drewe, C.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Little, Sir E. Graham.

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Duggan, H. J.

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Remer, J. R.

  Dunglass, Lord

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Elliston, G. S.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Emery, J. F.

  MacDonald Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.)

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Errington, E.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

  Erskine Hill, A. G.

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Scott, Lord William

  Fildes, Sir H.

  McKie, J. H.

  Selley, H. R.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Maclay, Hon. J. P.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Fox, Sir G. W. G.

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Gledhill, G.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, E.)

  Grimston, R. V.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

  Guest,Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll,N.W.)

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Spans, W. P.

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Hanbury, Sir C.

  Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

  Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

  Hannah, I. C.

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  Hannon, Sir. J. H.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Munro, P.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Hopkinson, A.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Hunter, T.

  Orr-Ewing, I, L.

  Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

  Jackson, Sir H.

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Penny, Sir G.

  Withers, Sir J. J.

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

  Kimball, L.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Power, Sir J. C.

  Mr. James Stuart and Captain

  Waterhouse.

  Word "at" there inserted in the Bill.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I beg to move, in page 5, line 13, to leave out "in the," and to insert "at his."
  This is a purely consequential Amendment.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 101; Noes, 141.

  Division No. 270.]

  AYES.

  [8.40 p.m.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Ritson, J.

  Adamson, W. M.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Rowson, G.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Hopkin, D.

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Banfield, J. W.

  John, W.

  Sexton, T. M.

  Barr, J.

  Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

  Shinwell, E.

  Batey, J.

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Short, A.

  Bellenger, F.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Silkin, L.

  Benson, G.

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Bevan, A.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Broad, F. A.

  Lathan, G.

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Brooke, W.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Leach, W.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Buchanan, G.

  Lee, F.

  Stephen, C.

  Burke, W. A.

  Leonard, W.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Casselis, T.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Cocks, F. S.

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Thorne, W.

  Cove, W. G.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Daggar, G.

  Maclean, N.

  Viant, S. P.

  Dalton, H.

  MacNeill, Weir, L.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

  Marklew, E.

  Walker, J.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Marshall, F.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Dobbie, W.

  Mathers, G.

  Welsh, J. C.

  Ede, J. C.

  Maxton, J.

  Westwood, J.

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Messer, F.

  White, H. Graham

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Milner, Major J.

  Wilkinson, Ellen

  Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

  Foot, D. M.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Gardner, B. W.

  Paling, W.

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Parker, J.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Potts, J.

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Groves.

  Hardie, G. D.

  Richards, R, (Wrexham)

  NOES.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Furness, S. N.

  Munro, P.

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Gledhill, G.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Grimston, R. V.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Guest, Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll,N.W.)

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Penny, Sir G.

  Bernays, R. H.

  Hanbury, Sir C.

  Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

  Birchall, Sir J. D.

  Hannah, I. C.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Blair, Sir R.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Power, Sir J. C.

  Blindell, Sir J.

  Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

  Hopkinson, A.

  Ramsden, Sir E.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Bull, B. B.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Remer, J. R.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Hunter, T.

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Cary, R. A.

  Jackson, Sir H.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Channon, H.

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Clarke, F. E.

  Kimball, L.

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Colfox, Major W. P.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

  Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Scott, Lord William

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Selley, H. R.

  Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.)

  Liddell, W. S.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.

  Little, Sir E. Graham-

  Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Crooke, J. S.

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, E.)

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

  Croom-Johnson, R P.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Spens, W. P.

  Cross, R. H.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Crossley, A. C.

  MacDonald Rt. Hon. J. R. (Scot. U.)

  Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Dawson, Sir P.

  McKie, J. H.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'n)

  Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

  Maclay, Hon. J. P.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Drewe, C.

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Duggan, H. J.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

  Dunglass, Lord

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Eastwood, J. F.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

  Elliston, G. S.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Withers, Sir J. J.

  Emery, J. F.

  Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Errington, E.

  Morgan, R. H.

  Erskine Hill, A. G.

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Flides, Sir H.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Mr. James Stuart and Captain

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

  Waterhouse.

  Fox, Sir G. W. G.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
  8.48 p.m.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in page 5, line 14, at the end, to insert:
  "(2) Any such exemption as aforesaid, if granted during the currency of the school term, shall be for a period ending not later than the end of that term, and, if granted between two school terms, shall be for a period ending not later than the end of the ensuing term:
  Provided that nothing in this subsection shall prohibit an education authority from renewing an exemption if they think fit to do so, and the provisions of this section shall apply to any such renewal in like manner as they apply to the original grant of such exemption."
  The meaning of this Amendment is that under the "little mother" Clause, once an exemption is given, it will not be given for any longer period than until the end of the next school term and the
  714
  local authority will have to review the certificate at the end of each school term. In other words, the exemption certificate which may be given to a child at the beginning of the school term is not given for a year or a year and a-half, but is given only for the period of the school term. An Amendment on these lines was accepted by the Government to the English Education Bill, and I hope, therefore, that they will accept this Amendment to the Scottish Education Bill.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: Without any argument, I will simply say that I am prepared to accept the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 7.—(Amendment of Act of 1906.)
  The following Amendment stood upon the Order Paper: In page 6, line 36, after "schools," insert "or in occupation centres."—[Mr. Guy.]
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. GUY: The purpose of this Amendment is to clear away any doubts which may remain in the minds of education authorities as to their duty to provide instruction or education in occupation centres for a limited class of mentally defective children. This Clause deals with mentally and physically defective children, and places a duty upon the education authority to make special provision in schools or otherwise for these children, who are defined in, Sub-section (2). As it stands, the Clause suggests that provision should be made in special schools only. It is true that the Lord Advocate, when a similar Amendment was moved in Committee, gave his interpretation of the words "or otherwise." I shall come to his statement in a few minutes. My submission is that certain doubts still remain and the object of the Amendment is to remove those doubts. The category of children with which the Amendment is concerned is very limited. The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) challenged my estimate in Committee of about 1,000, but I have made several inquiries as to the probable number, and, although my estimate is by no means accurate, it is sufficiently accurate to give an idea of the scope of this problem.
  There are several categories of mentally deficient children for which special provision is made. The main categories are those who are educable and those who are uneducable. The Amendment is concerned with the specially limited category on the border-line between the two main categories. Hitherto, the education authorities have not made any special provision for this category. Provision has been made by voluntary care committees in occupation centres. There are some 12 of them in Scotland, and with one exception they are All voluntary. The exception is in Edinburgh where the centre is run by the local education authority, but is financed, not out of education funds, but by the public health committee. The next point is that these children will not necessarily always be in this category, because experience has shown, in Edinburgh and elsewhere, that children who have only a limited degree of educability may, under proper supervision, and with training by properly qualified instructors, qualify for promotion to the special schools. It would
  716
  be a mistake to consider that they will remain always at the lowest point of the scale of educability. When I moved a similar Amendment in Committee as an addition to Clause 8—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It appears to me, after listening carefully to the hon. Member, that the intention of the Amendment which he wishes to move goes beyond a drafting Amendment, and if that is so it is out of order.
  Mr. GUY: I have no intention of trespassing against the Rules of Order. My intention is to give effect to a statement made by the Lord Advocate when I moved a similar Amendment to Clause 8. He said, quoting him from column 380 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of the 11th day's proceedings:
  "I would stress the words 'or otherwise' because they were deliberately inserted to cover other forms of instruction or occupation centres than schools, and not only than ordinary schools but than special schools. When the Clause becomes law, if it becomes law in its present form, it will accordingly be the duty, and not merely the power, of every education authority in Scotland not only to provide special schools but to make any other provision, whether by occupation centres or otherwise, for the particular class of children which hon. Members have in mind."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee on Scottish Bills), 14th May, 1936; col. 380.
  That was a very satisfactory assurance. There was agreement in all parts of the Committee as to the purpose we wish carried out, and the Lord Advocate, in his statement, did not challenge that purpose, but at the end of the discussion, and before I withdrew the Amendment, promised to reconsider the question with a view to the addition of any further words to Clause 7 which might be required to make this duty of the education authority absolutely clear. The provision of some limited degree of training and education in occupation centres for this unfortunate class of children is recommended by the Scottish Association for Mental Welfare which is a very representative association, including representatives of local authorities and other bodies all over Scotland. Yesterday, received the report of the Committee on the Scottish Health Services. I may say, in passing, that this is one of the finest reports of its kind which I have ever seen. I then discovered—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I feel bound to ask for an opinion from the Lord Advocate on this point. Either the hon. Member is arguing something not covered by the Clause, in which case he is out of order at this stage, or he is arguing something which is completely unnecessary. I should like to hear what the Lord Advocate has to say.
  9.0 p.m.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: My view is that, in so far as the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Guy) desires that provision be made by education authorities for mentally defective children otherwise than in schools, that object is already covered by the Clause. In so far as he desires, by inserting the words "in occupation centres," to lay upon education authorities the duty of the care and supervision of children who are not capable of education but are proper subjects for a mental deficiency authority, that is, in my humble opinion, not only outside the scope of the Clause but outside the scope of the Bill, and I shall find it my duty to oppose it strenuously.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: After what the Lord Advocate has said my impression is confirmed that this Amendment is out of order and I cannot allow the hon. Member to move it.
  CLAUSE 17.—(Interpretation.)
  9.1 p.m.
  The LORD ADVOCATE: I beg to move, in page 10, line 16, at the end, to insert:
  "(2) For the purposes of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1935, a child in respect of whom an employment certificate has been granted under this Act shall, as from the date from which the certificate has effect and notwithstanding that it may thereafter cease to have effect, be deemed to have attained the minimum age for entry into insurance."
  I think I can say with fairness and accuracy that this is a drafting Amendment, because only a short time ago, on the Motion of the Under-Secretary, we deleted from page 4 of the Bill paragraph (b) of Sub-section (4) of Clause 3. We now propose to re-insert it in a slightly more ample form and in better phraseology as a Sub-section to Clause 17. It leaves the substance of the position unaffected. I think the right hon. Gentleman opposite accepts it.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: Agreed.
  Amendment agreed to.
  9.2 p.m.
  Mr. HARDIE: I wish to raise a point of Order before we leave the Report stage. During the Committee stage there were two Amendments from the Glasgow Corporation referring to secondary education and to a census every third year. The Lord Advocate promised the delegation from Glasgow that he was going to deal with these points and we expected that they would be dealt with on the Report stage. I should like to hear whether he can tell us why nothing has been done about the matter on the Report stage.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am afraid that is hardly a point of Order. It is not a matter which can be dealt with now.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,. "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  9.4 p.m.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The right hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Mr. Johnston) has given notice of a reasoned Amendment to the Motion for the Third Reading of the Bill. I think that before I call upon him to move that Amendment I ought to acquaint the House with the views of Mr. Speaker on this subject. He says that, according to the practice of the House, what can be debated on the Third Reading of a Bill is confined to what is in the Bill. There is a growing practice on Third Reading of putting down and moving reasoned Amendments containing much that is not in the Bill. That is a practice which must not be encouraged; otherwise the practice of confining Debates to what is in the Bill and the old practices and old Rules of Order in this House become inoperative. The Amendment which the right hon. Member proposes to move refers to several things not in the Bill. They are, however, only expressions of regret, so that I have not been able to rule them out of order, but I can only allow the merest reference to them, and no debate upon them on the Third Reading.
  9.5 p.m.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:

  719
  "this House, while strongly of opinion that the school-leaving age should be raised, regrets that a Bill purporting to achieve this end should be made largely inoperative by Clauses designed to encourage the entry of children into industry whilst still of school age, makes no provision for assisting necessitous parents, penalises the child who remains at school, so far as future unemployment benefits are concerned, and retards the complete provision of full secondary education for all the children of Scotland."
  I have had the advantage of an intimation from Mr. Speaker on the lines that you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, have just communicated to the House, and I propose to observe faithfully the conditions of Debate which he has indicated. We have reached the last stage of this Measure, so far as the House of Commons is concerned. There is a general consensus of opinion that it has been steadily improved, both in the Committee stage upstairs and on the Report stage this afternoon, but it still remains primarily and chiefly a Ministry of Labour Bill, regulating somewhat the flow of juvenile labour to the market, but leaving wide holes for exemption and evasion. In the Preamble to the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers make a rough estimate that there will be, in the initial stages at all events, something like 50 per cent. of the children of Scotland, who, on reaching the age of 14, will receive exemption. I would draw the attention of the House to the to the further fact that the provisions of this Measure, meagre as they are, have not to come into operation until three years have elapsed.
  Education is a social service which differs in Scotland in some degree from all other social services. We have more in the nature of Home Rule in education than we have in our other services. Once Parliament has voted its annual sum of money for the purpose of education, the Secretary of State is allotted his 11/80ths of that expenditure and he may spend it on education in Scotland without being compelled to face Treasury experts every other week. In this connection, may I express the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will, in the immediate future, see to it that the present permanent head of the Department of Education for Scotland has his headquarters transferred from Dover House to Edinburgh. We cannot afford to lose one inch, one fraction, of the local Scottish control
  720
  that we presently have in our Scottish Services.
  Since 1918, when Lord Alness stood at that Box, during the Debates upon the Scottish Education Bill, the Secretary of State for Scotland has had power in his hands to raise the leaving age of the children of Scotland to 15. He has had the power all these years. Abortive attempts have been made in the intervening period to get the school age raised. I will refer in a moment to the effort which was made by the Labour Government in 1929, but in Lord Alness's time he stood at that Box and said that he would not be satisfied with the raising of the age to 15. Indeed, he speculated on the time to come when we should be able to raise the age by instalments to 17 or 18. His words were:
  "As circumstances permit, without binding ourselves to any specified length of moratorium,"
  the Government undertook in that Measure, to raise the age for education, so far as continuation classes were concerned, to the age of 18. Lord Alness added that education, in his view, should be a common possession of all, as befitted a true Democracy and he put the raising of the age in the forefront of the advantages he sought. He added:
  "The premature breaking off of education … has deprived us in the past of much potential energy which otherwise would have been placed at the service of the State and the nation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th June, 1936; cols. 1083–86, Vol. 107.]
  Then we come to 1929. The Labour Government brought in a Measure to raise the age to 15. This leads me, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to the prohibited subject. The Labour Government provided for 5s. per week maintenance allowance for the children who took advantage of that additional year. Now we have this belated, date-postponed, exemption-riddled effort of the right hon. Gentleman. That it is primarily a Ministry of Labour Bill, we can, I think, deduce fairly from the "Notes for speakers" issued by the Conservative and Unionist central offices in February of this year, wherein they advise orators on behalf of the National Government, when speaking on the Education Bills, to note that owing to the prospective fall in the number of juveniles, there would be by 1939 a shortage rather than a surplus of juvenile labour, except in the depressed

  721
  areas. It was therefore visualised that there will be a shortage rather than a surplus of juvenile labour, and, that being so, there is nothing very much to worry about as a result of this Bill. They have provided that, wherever there is a demand for juvenile labour, they can supply it; there is nothing to stop them; but there is going to be a surplus of employment for these juveniles, so that by 1939 the problem of the extension of the school age will not matter very much anyhow. Therefore, the Bill as it now stands is a very meagre, pettifogging, and largely illusory effort, so far as the present generation is concerned, to raise the school-leaving age.
  When the Labour party were in office, they provided a 5s. maintenance allowance. The present Government provide nothing. They certainly do, although hon. Members opposite hesitate to remind them of it, provide maintenance allowances for the Income Tax paying classes. Every hon. Gentleman who fills up his Income Tax form is allowed £60 off his taxable income for every child of his who remains in an educational establishment, and, at the rate of 4s. 6d. in the £, that represents something in the neighbourhood of £10 per annum of clear relief to the Income Tax paying classes for every child who remains in an educational establishment. But, when it comes to the children of the poor, no maintenance allowance whatsoever is provided. The right hon. Gentleman, on the occasion of the Second Reading of the Bill, made a declaration to the effect that we were the admiration of the world in regard to our education system so far as the question of age was concerned. That, however, is definitely not so. I have had inquiries made, so far as it was possible to do so since the Second Reading, and I learn that, in a little country like Latvia, the school-leaving age is already 16; that in several Provinces of Canada and in several States of the Commonwealth of Australia, in the United States of America and in South Africa, the age is either 15 or 16 already; while in Germany, Portugal, Roumania, and some of the Swiss cantons, it is 15.
  Other speakers may make further references to the details of the Measure and the facilities which are given for exemption, so I do not propose to trouble the House with those matters, but I
  722
  desire to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman and his friends to the new age that has dawned upon us—the new age that opens before his eyes and mine. It is an age of potential and actual plenty; it is not an age of scarcity or of famine, but an age of enough. Famine has been banished, from the Western world at any rate, by the coming of the machine and the technical knowledge which our generation possesses. Someone has said that the horn of plenty is filled, or could be filled, to the brim. Yet we are not training our children for a life of prosperous leisure; there is no conception, of that in our educational machinery. We are not training them in the virtues, in the best sense of the word, of ladies and gentlemen; we are not training them in the arts of leisure; we are not training them in dignity, courtesy, poise, love of beautiful things, or anything like that. I happened to be reading the other day Montaigne's well-known essay, De l'institution des Enfants, in which he said—and it is as true to-day as it was when he said it—that the purpose of educating a boy should be to reach this result, that it would be:
  "not by the testimonie of his memorie, but by the witnesse of his life,"
  that you would judge of your educational system. Instead of that, we have a system of beneficial employment for children. Upstairs in Committee we tried to prevent the sending of children down the coal-pits. It was refused; that was regarded as beneficial employment for a boy of 14. In a market glutted with surplus labour in the coalfields you would not prohibit the taking of a boy away from his studies, you would not even guarantee him a secondary education. No; the door is open to beneficial employment for him in the coal-pit, in the factory, in the moulding shop, even in mucking out a byre. I am reminded of the quatrain in Gray's Elegy:
  "But knowledge to their eyes her ample page,
  Rich with the spoils of time, did ne'er unroll;
  Chill penury repressed their noble rage, And froze the genial current of the soul."
  By this Measure we condemn 50 per cent. or thereby of the children of our country to be without, for all their days, the chance of a ripening, widening, developing view of life. Because of their poverty

  723
  we take them away from school; we refuse to make financial and economic provision for their retention there. We cannot afford to continue this ignorance. Nationally, no nation can afford it. On humanitarian grounds it is an outrage and a scandal. Ill health and ignorance are an economic burden which no society can afford to carry once it has learned to lighten that burden. If we are to liberate the lives of the coming generation, we must liberate their minds—the minds of the children who are coming after us, who are to carry on the culture and the civilisation of which many of us are so proud. By this Measure, instead of earning encomiums and votes of thanks, the Government and the right hon. Gentleman, in my view, are clearly blameworthy for the miserable, pettifogging restrictions with which, in an opening world of plenty, they have chosen to prevent such a large number of the children of the poor from enjoying the benefits of a secondary education.
  9.25 p.m.
  Mr. FOOT: On behalf of my party I want to enter one last protest against this Bill before it leaves us. Nowhere in this House or in Scotland is there very much enthusiasm for it. There was no great enthusiasm anywhere for its English counterpart. The "Times" is not exactly an organ of Left Wing opinion, but I would remind the Government of what was said in the "Times" last April, just before the Report stage of the English Bill, which embodies a similar structure and principles to the Bill we are now considering. The "Times" said:
  "No doubt Mr. Stanley can get his Bill as it stands, but there can be little satisfaction in adding one more to the laws which encumber the Statute Book without having any obvious effect on our daily lives."
  That is an admirable description of this Bill and the effect which it is likely to achieve. This Bill has no educational value. It had a certain electoral value last November, when it was represented as being a measure of social and educational reform. Under a Coalition like that from which we now suffer we are bound to have legislation of this description, which serves the double purpose of saving the faces of the National Labour and Liberal National supporters of the
  724
  Government without really offending the prejudices of their Conservative followers. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken gave an estimate of the number of children who would be affected by this Bill. He thought that only 50 per cent. of the children in Scotland would be kept at school after 14.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: I said that was the Government's estimate.
  Mr. FOOT: I am not sure that it is not a highly optimistic estimate. In many areas this Bill may be simply a dead letter. Although unemployment is a serious matter in Scotland, it is probably less serious among those between 14 and 15 than among any others. Even in the cities where unemployment is still high it is only a small minority of those between 14 and 15 who are unable to find jobs. I have here some information concerning my own constituency, which shows that of all the children in Dundee who have left school since 1931, only 15 individual girls and 24 individual boys have never at any time had a job. We have 9,000 juveniles between 14 and 18 in Dundee, and the number of unemployed between those ages at any one time is only about 500. In 1935, taking the four school-leaving dates together, the number of children who left school was 2,410. The number between 14 and 15 who were unemployed in November last year was 183 boys and 101 girls, only 284 in the whole city. In March this year, the latest figures I have, the figures were even lower—100 boys arid 119 girls, a total of 219. The number at that age who failed to find jobs on leaving school is only about 10 per cent. in a city like Dundee.
  This Bill might work in such a way that, if the education authority took a lax view of its duties, only that 10 per cent. would be kept at school, and no more. I hope the authority in my own constituency will take a more enlightened view. The number who will be kept at school will depend on the standard of beneficial employment fixed by each education authority. Unless, in a place like Dundee the authority is prepared to say of a large number of jobs occupied by children between 14 and 15 that they do not regard them as beneficial employment, and will not let their children take them—which is a very strong line to take—only a small minority of the

  725
  children will be kept at school under this Bill. Another objection which we have to the Bill is the rigid way in which it is drawn. There is no flexibility about this Measure. It is clear, on the wording of Clause 2, that if the job that is offered comes up to the standard that has been set by the education authority for its own guidance, the authority has to grant a certificate.
  The authority has no option, and it is not able to refuse a certificate. They could use their discretion in such a way that, by practically ignoring the law, they could distinguish between one case and another. But that is far too much to expect of any education authority. If an employer comes along and offers a job at a certain wage and under certain conditions, and a certificate is granted, and the next day another employer comes along offering a precisely similar job, it would be impossible for the education authority to say, "No, although we have granted a certificate in one case we will refuse it in the other." so where you have a large number of cases it would be impossible for any education authority to draw a distinction of that kind. That is to say, if the position comes up to the standard—each authority will set its own standard—they have no option, and they have to grant the certificate even when they are quite certain in their own minds that it would be better for the child to remain at school.
  I know the argument that has been put up. It was put up at the General Election and it has been used since, particularly by the Minister of Education when discussing the English Bill. He said that this method of exemptions is the road along which we have always advanced in matters of education. It has been pointed out that under former Statutes the old system of exemptions, both in England and Scotland, played a very much larger part 20 years ago than at present, and that gradually the number of exemptions has grown smaller and smaller as the years have passed by. The suggestion is that the same thing is going to happen under this Bill. But there is a very great difference between the system of exemptions that has existed in the past and the system of exemptions that is going to be created by this Bill, because there is no absolute discretion left to the local authorities. They have not the discretion gradually to decrease the number of exemptions.
  726
  There are only two ways under the Bill in which the number of exemptions can be steadily diminished, firstly if there is a great falling off in the number of applications made by the parent, and, secondly, if the education authority is prepared to get round the terms of the Act by steadily raising its standard year by year of what constitutes beneficial employment.
  The Amendment refers to the failure of the Bill to provide assistance for necessitous parents. The Government has from the beginning, and indeed before the Education Bills were introduced, set its face against anything in the nature of maintenance grants, but it seems to me that, even with the Bill as it stands, one rather peculiar anomaly is likely to be created. If you take the case of a parent who is in work and who keeps his boy at school, even though it is a sacrifice for him to do it, there is obviously going to be no financial assistance for him. But supposing next door there is another parent, also with a boy just over 14 whom he keeps at school, and he comes under the Unemployment Assistance Board, he is going to get an extra 6s. a week under the Unemployment Board's scale. I do not say that this is entirely the fault of the way in which the Bill is drafted, but we might take note that we create rather a remarkable anomaly where you have two boys, one the son of an employed parent and the other of an unemployed parent, and there may be very little difference between the wages that the one receives and the benefit that the other receives.
  We regard this as an entirely bogus Measure. We do not regard is as being in any way an educational advance. We regard it as simply an attempt to evade the 1918 Act—in fact, it goes back On the provisions of that Act—and also we believe it is going to create very considerable administrative difficulties. I know that some hon. Members do not seem to think that considerations like that are of very much importance, but it seems to me that, particularly since 1929, we have put extraordinarily heavy duties on those who are taking part in the business of local government. The duties that have to be carried out by town and county councils become progressively heavier as time goes on. We are going to put a very difficult task upon the shoulders of education authorities.

  727
  In the first place, we are bound to have very wide disparities between one area and another. I know that there are certain things in the Bill which have to be taken into account by an education authority in deciding what employment is to be considered beneficial, but there is no minimum standard laid down, and you are bound to get variations from one district to another. In one district they may say that no employment is to be regarded as beneficial where the wages are less than 10s, a week. In another they may put it at 6s. or 7s. You Ore bound to get these anomalies arising. Also you are going to create exceedingly strained relations between the education authority and the employers of labour.
  May I remind the House of the sort of difficulty that will exist in my constituency? We have there an industry which is under the control of a trade board. Wages go up according to age, and the result is that a great many children are taken on in the mills at the age of 14 and are kept on for a few years, and when the time comes, generally at the age of 18, when they would be paid a higher wage, they are thrown off. They just get those few years of employment, and sometimes when they are thrown out it may be years before they can get another job. It is going to be a very difficult matter to say whether employment of that kind is to be regarded as beneficial or not. I should say definitely that it is not, because in so many cases it really constitutes blind-alley employment, and, although it may be two or three years' employment, or perhaps a little more, it is going to mean possibly long years of idleness after that. But imagine how difficult it is for the education authorities to say to the industrialist in the principal industries in the city: "We do not regard the employment that you offer as beneficial." You are asking them, when they do that, to carry an extremely heavy burden and you 'are going to create very strained relations between the industrialists and those who are running the education authority.
  These are some of the objections which, in spite of what has been said, we still hold towards the Bill. We do not regard it as a Measure of educational advance at all. We believe it is one of
  728
  the most useless Measures that even this Government has put upon the Statute Book.
  9.45 p.m.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir Godfrey Collins): The Junior Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) in his opening sentence described this Bill as not a Bill of educational advance. One like myself who holds different views from some of my colleagues on these benches—
  Mr. FOOT: Will the right hon. Gentleman say where the difference lies?
  Sir G. COLLINS: I will come to that in a moment. I am dealing with this particular point. I have found that my colleagues—and I can only speak from such experience as I have had—are as anxious as I am in the cause of education, though perhaps my Liberal views are not so progressive, after all these years, as those of my hon. Friend. My hon. and right hon. Friends and I are in complete agreement that this Bill is a real education Bill, and is a far greater advance than the hon. Member imagines. In one portion of his speech he described the Bill as probably being a dead letter. He went on to deal with the enlightened views of the local authorities who would administer the Bill, and thereby, I presume, he meant that the Bill would not become a dead letter. He went on to state also that the Bill was placing too heavy a task upon the local authorities. I have had some opportunities of getting into touch with local authorities since the Bill was introduced, and I can tell him that the local authorities who know the Bill and who know the rights, needs and necessities of education in different parts of Scotland, do not share his pessimism. They are at close quarters with the real problem. They have studied the Bill and believe, as I do, that it is an educational advance, and they do not share in one iota any of the apprehensions raised by the hon. Member.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Mr. Johnston) in his opening speech on the Third Reading of the Bill submitted to the House four simple propositions. I always envy the wording of manifestos of the party opposite. Whether it be their reasoned Amendment in the Debate

  729
  this evening or their election manifesto on peace or war, it always commands my respect, although I may profoundly differ from the policies which they try to convey. He urged that the head of the Scottish Education Department who took up his duties a few months ago should be moved to Edinburgh. Let me tell the House that after appointing the present head I asked him to stay in London so as to be in touch with the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills and with all stages of the Bill while it was becoming law. I also said that after this Bill became law, in the autumn, he would take up his duties at the headquarters in Edinburgh. I am as convinced as is the right hon. Gentleman that it is essential, in the interests of Scottish education, that the civil servant who administers the different Acts passed by this House should be resident in Scotland and in touch with the numerous local authorities administering education in different parts of Scotland. Side by side with that, it is essential for the head of any Department to be constantly in London in touch with Dover House and the wider interests of education which we have to administer in the metropolis of this country.
  Mr. MAXTON: How does the one man manage to do these two things at once?
  Sir G. COLLINS: I agree that it places a heavy burden upon this civil servant, but it is essential that he should be doing the work of administration in his office in Edinburgh, and at the same time keep in touch with London.
  Mr. MAXTON: I think the right hon. Gentleman said that he wanted him in Edinburgh and in London at the same time.
  Sir G. COLLINS: I said that I wanted him in Edinburgh, but there are constant journeys to London in order to keep in touch with the Minister responsible for Scottish Education in this House. There would have to be constant travelling to and from Edinburgh. The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned that education was a service which was distinctly a home rule service. I would go further and describe it as a local service under local bodies, with local control and central direction. When the right hon. Gentleman said that Scottish education did not sufficiently train people in dignity and poise, he was taking rather too
  730
  pessimistic an outlook of the spirit and cause of education in Scotland to-day. If I remember aright, in a speech delivered a few months ago the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) spoke with truth of the vast forward movement which has taken place in education among the poor children in Glasgow during the last 30 years. If we compare the interests of the teachers and the love and devotion which they extend to the children under their care with the position in former days, I do not think it can be said of us that we are not training, and that this House through different parties and Ministers and different Governments is not training, our people in dignity and poise and in outlook. We may not be going forward as rapidly as hon. Members opposite desire, but at any rate year after year there is a distinct step forward in the wide cause of education.
  When the right hon. Gentleman spoke in too pessimistic a tone he was not doing justice to his fellow countrymen in Scotland. He advanced four simple propositions about this Bill. The party opposite are strongly of opinion that the school-leaving age should be raised to 15 without exemption and that the Bill should be amended to achieve this end. Nothing that I can say this evening will naturally convince any hon. Member opposite that the Clause to which they have rightly taken exception, and which they have used every proper Parliamentary opportunity to oppose, for raising the school age under the terms proposed in the Bill, is a good one, or will lead them to accept all the views we hold. But this I will say, that though they have lodged their protest against the main purpose of the Bill, we have received their assistance in other Clauses of the Bill, and I am glad to state our appreciation of their services in helping my right hon. Friends when they piloted the Bill so successfully through the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills, and of their assistance in the matter. When we speak in this House of our Bills going up to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills the public outside do not, I think, sufficiently appreciate the very close scrutiny which takes place not only in every Clause but in every Sub-section of the Bill.
  The Bill which is now before the House, although it is substantially the same Bill as that which went upstairs to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills,

  731
  in certain Clauses has indeed been improved. I will not weary the House with the number of Amendments which have been made, but I will recall to the memory of hon. Members that the leaving date, which was very vague in the original draft, has now been completely altered and children can leave only on certain specified days throughout the year. A duty has been placed upon the shoulders of the local authorities to make more ample provision for mental defectives. In addition, provision has been made for those who are anxious to secure further education. These Amendments have improved the machinery, and if the House this evening in its wisdom determines to pass the Bill hon. Members may ask what steps the Government propose to take when it becomes law. We shall at once address ourselves to the problem which Parliament has placed on our shoulders. We shall again get into touch with the local authorities to see what further steps can be taken for the provision of school buildings in the various areas. We have promised at the same time to review the curriculum of the schools so that when the Bill comes into operation in 1939 all that foresight and energy can do will have been done in the intervening years.
  Many hon. Members opposite who feel very keenly on the subject of the school-leaving age would like to see it raised to 15. In all these forward movements, if they are to be successful, it is essential that the great mass of public opinion must go with you. The right hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan (Mr. Johnston) quoted some sentences delivered by my predecessor in office in 1918, when he sketched out the prospect that the school-leaving age would be raised rapidly to 15. Eighteen years have passed and many Governments have administered the affairs of State since that date. Looking back, one realises that that Bill, that Clause or that outlook in 1918 was in advance of public opinion.
  Mr. MAXTON: The public accepted it right away.
  Sir G. COLLINS: It was a vague promise. There was no specific date in the Bill. It was an airy hope, dangled before the people to attract them.
  Mr. MAXTON: In 1918, the Bill was very comprehensive and the whole lot was accepted by the people. The right hon. Gentleman says that it was in advance of public opinion. Everything that was operative was accepted. The only thing that was not operative was the school-leaving age.
  Sir G. COLLINS: I was addressing myself to that point. The right hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan quoted several sentences from a speech delivered from this bench in 1918. I have not the reference by me, but the general sense of the speech was that the school leaving age would be rapidly raised to 15. Eighteen years have passed and the school-leaving age has not been raised to 15. Therefore, I submit that although you may pass Acts of Parliament, although you may enshrine what you desire, what we all desire, unless you can carry with you the full force of public opinion, that Clause becomes a dead letter. I am convinced, with all respect to hon. Members opposite, that if we are to carry the country with us, as we all desire to do, and if the school-leaving age is to be raised gradually under certain conditions to 15, we must go forward step by step, so that not only shall we carry public opinion with us, but we shall carry the parents of the children with us.
  When we talk of education we are so often apt to think of the interests of the teachers. I agree that the interests of the teachers are all-important, but public servants, whether they be in the House of Commons or whether they be teachers in our elementary schools, live to serve the public, and the teachers and the whole educational machinery exist for the benefit of the children and the interests of the parent. The interests of the parents are in the forefront of this Bill. We have thought it well to leave the discretion whether the children should leave school at 14 or continue to. 15, to the parents themselves, who, in the first place, are to decide. Then, later, it is for the education authorities to determine whether the work offered is of real beneficial value to the child.
  These are some of the general thoughts which occurred to me as the right hon. Gentleman was speaking. I fear that it will be very difficult to say anything. fresh on a Bill which has been so

  733
  thoroughly thrashed out in Committee, but before sitting down I should like to say a few words about certain Clauses dealing with physical training, on which we have had the active assistance of hon. Members opposite. Since the Second Reading of the Bill I have addressed a personal letter to the chairmen of all education authorities in Scotland directing their attention to the value of physical training to the children in their schools and the House will be glad to hear that that appeal has met with a ready response, and that to-day up and down our country further steps are being taken to improve the physical well-being of the children in our schools. I mention that in passing.
  If the House of Commons, if Parliament, thinks fit to pass the Bill I and those associated with me at the Scottish Office and in the Scottish Education Department will bend our energies to see that the new powers entrusted to us by Parliament have been entrusted to those who will do their duty. We shall endeavour by gradual steps and by sympathetic attention to the needs not only of the children but of the parents, to see that when 1939 comes, not only will the schools be ready but that public opinion in Scotland will be ready for that forward movement in the cause of education which is so dear to the hearts of my Scottish colleagues.
  10.4 p.m.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Like my colleagues on these benches, I shall oppose the Third Reading of the Bill. The Secretary of State for Scotland in his closing remarks dealt with the question of physical training. A good number of the points with which he dealt in his speech are in themselves only incidental to the Bill. There was no need in a Bill of this kind to deal with the question of physical training or several other issues which the right hon. Gentleman raised. They are only incidental and have come in as a sort of side wind. I cannot understand the Government on these issues. They come here and talk about what they are going to do for physical training. Every chairman of an education authority has been written to asking him to interest himself in physical training. I am a bit cynical. The appeal for physical training must be in respect of schools in which the poorer people are concerned. The average well-to-do children do not need the chairman
  734
  of an education authority to see that they get physical training. The children in Hillhead School and Albert Road School come from well-to-do quarters and do not need a benevolent chairman of an education authority to see that they get physical training. They are living in surroundings adjacent to the open country and, therefore, this appeal for physical training is for the poorer section of the community.
  In three weeks time the Government propose to introduce Regulations dealing with the unemployed. At the same time that one Department of the Government are urging that poor people should get physical training another section of the Government will be coming along and taking away the income of these poor people, without which there can be no physical training. You cannot have physical training if people are not properly fed. You can pass your Bills from now until Doomsday but unless the working people and their children have the means to live, proper housing and proper food, your Bills will be no good unless you deal with the poverty problem of the poor. I am not against any provision dealing with mental defectives but I say that they should never have been dealt with in this Measure. The problem not merely of mental defectives but of the crippled child is not one which should have been dealt with as a side line in this Bill; it is a problem which should be dealt with in a separate Measure. In Scotland we have made some provision for the treatment of the blind. Education authorities can deal with them throughout their adult life, but we cast aside the mental defectives and the cripple at a certain age, and make absolutely no provision for them except the Poor Law after they leave school. The problem of the mental defective and the cripple should have been dealt with in a separate Measure, not in a Measure raising the school age.
  As to exemptions, I agree with the criticisms which hon. Members have made in regard to beneficial employment. In this matter the Bill is reactionary. Under the existing law every local authority has the responsibility of seeing that the job is a decent one and also that the parents need the income. Now under the present proposal all that they have to do is to prove that it is beneficial employment.

  735
  There is no other test. It is said in some quarters, and I believe it is the case, that the Government have held out this bribe of exemption in order to conciliate the opposition of the poorer sections of the community to the raising of the school age. There might be something in that if the Bill really meant that the children of poor people will be able to get these exemptions. The Bill however is a fraud in this respect; it is the biggest fraud I know. The people who will get exemption for beneficial employment are not the poorer sections of the community.
  What is beneficial employment? I take it is means a decent job, a job which holds out some kind of prospect. Who gets these beneficial jobs? It is the boy with influence, the boy whose father is at work, who is of some social standing. I represent a mass of people who have known nothing but poverty. In my division the problem is that the poor children are automatically unemployed, except for the most menial and contemptible of jobs which no local authority would ever say was beneficial employment. That is the problem in my division. These jobs are got by the boys of parents with an income, who can send their children out decently dressed and who can speak to men in authority. From this point of view the Bill is a fraud and a sham, and in my opinion will make the position 50 times worse than it is now. I am going to support the Amendment, although there is a phrase in it which I do not like. I do not want it to be said that I am in favour of anything like a means test for children. I know that the Amendment was framed hurriedly and handed in as a manuscript Amendment, but I want it to be understood that I am not in favour of any kind of a means test. I was amazed at the attack of the Secretary of State on a predecessor, now a Noble Lord and a distinguished judge in the Court of Sessions. The right hon. Gentleman criticised him very strongly.
  Sir G. COLLINS: I did not make any attack on my predecessor, and I did not intend to criticise him, If my remarks were taken as criticism, I withdraw them. The object of my intervention was to point out that he held out a hope that the school age would be gradually raised to
  736
  15, but that it has been shown that he was in advance of public opinion.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: The right hon. Gentleman said that he held out an airy hope, and that is a reflection. It is only when I have drawn attention to those remarks that the right hon. Gentleman chases away from them. The right hon. Gentleman attempted to draw contrasts; he is the strong silent man and the other fellow holds out airy hopes. Compare this puny, contemptible Measure with what was attempted and what they at least tried to settle in the 1918 Bill, a Bill which settled questions on which there had been great controversy over a period of years. On that Bill they had to face great conflicts which have not to be met now, and in the main in Scotland the provisions of the Bill were accepted and have worked since. What is frightening the Government? Are they frightened that there will be criticism if they raise the school-leaving age too quickly? Are they frightened that somebody will criticise the Bill? Which is the section of public opinion for which we must wait? Those of us who sit on this side of the House represent the bulk of the population which will be most affected by this Bill.
  Sir G. COLLINS: We expect that by 1939 public opinion will be ready.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Why wait until 1939? Why this wait, and why these exemptions? One would have expected that hon. Members on this side would have been subject to far more pressure to allow the school leaving age to remain as it is if it were true that public opinion is against the raising of the age. Was the right hon. Gentleman speaking of the employers who want a cheap and ready supply of labour? Even in that respect may I say to the right hon. Gentleman that decent employers are ahead of him? They will not take on boys before they are 15, and in some cases 16. Almost the biggest employers of labour in the city of Glasgow are the co-operative societies. They are not against the raising of the school-leaving age. Is the printing trade against it? Hardly a decent firm of printers approves of this Bill. Who are the people that the right hon. Gentleman refers to when he speaks of public opinion?
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: The parents.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Let us say the parents. Who are these parents.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: The parents of the children concerned.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I hope that in what I say I shall cast no reflection on the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I hope that I pay as much attention to my division as any other hon. Member. I have not missed visiting my constituency regularly for years and never once in my weekly interviews with my constituents have I had a complaint about this matter. It is true that they wanted decent maintenance for their children, but I will tell the hon. Member an amazing thing. It is not a case of the parents complaining about the extra year of education. It is a case of the poor people asking for education for their children. Only the other week I got the Under-Secretary to assist me in enabling people on Poor Law relief to keep their children at school. In Glasgow to-day the Poor Law authority, to their credit, are giving such people small payments to enable the children to be kept at school. Search to-day all round and you will find how the poor people strive for the education of their children. Next to a decent home, comes the need for education and I say to the hon. Member that what he has said is a reflection on the parents. The parents of Scotland to-day are more in tense in their desire to give the children a chance than ever they were in the past.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: I agree with a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman has said, but I would remind him that during the General Election last year one of the greatest reliefs that could be offered to the parents was the statement that there would be exemptions to enable the children to take beneficial employment.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: If that were so, one would imagine that it would be the case in Gorbals more than anywhere else. I do not suppose that 10 per cent. of the people there have decent incomes. Many of them are living under terrible conditions and one would imagine that if exemptions were a bribe for votes they would be more of a bribe there than anywhere else. I stood at the Election and I would not pledge myself to exemptions. I said I wanted the school age raised for all to 15, with decent
  738
  maintenance grants. I said I was against making fish of one and flesh of another and against providing cheap labour for employers. As to the right hon. Gentleman himself, down in Greenock, I do not believe that his speeches about exemptions mattered at all as regards votes. As a matter of fact, in great industrial districts like Greenock there were other issues at stake and the question of exemptions played little if any part in the Election. [An HON. MEMBER: "Battleships."] Yes, he did manage to get Scotts some battleships, and if he had done a little less for battleships and a little more for peace, it would have reflected greater credit upon him. It is no use hiding and dodging round the facts. We saw the posters "Vote for Collins. Keep him in the Cabinet." Why? Because he would get battleships for Scotts and one or two other places—just a form of bribery. I must confess that we were taken in. [An HON. MEMBER: "Clydebank."] I am not going into the relative merits of Clydebank and Greenock. It would be dangerous if I were to do so, but I say that those things mattered more than this exemption business in our industrial areas.
  I feel that this Bill will cause dissension between family and family. One of the things that it will tend to do will be that in overcrowded districts, where one child has been fortunate enough to get exemption, the minute that child walks out of the school with the exemption, the other children cannot see why they too should not walk out, and it will be a very great problem indeed for the teachers and the education authorities. One of the reasons why the present exemption system has broken down in every intelligent district is that the education authorities have found that in actual practice they have two sets of children, and it has been impossible to carry on. I shall vote against the Bill. I believe the school-leaving age should be raised. I come from a family that have had, I think, a fair measure of success in the educational sphere, and I want to see education extended. I have been denied it myself, and I would like to see education and the beauties of life extended to the children. I would like to see the school-leaving age raised higher than 15—raised to 16. The children of the future, I think, ought to be better than the

  739
  children of the past, and I would welcome any Bill, even although it might not offer the same hope for my division as for other divisions, that raised the school-leaving age and gave to education a better status than it has, but this Bill, far from doing that, will bring education, I am sorry to say, into contempt and public ridicule. It is not a Bill that faces the problem at all; it is a Bill that holds out a mean bribe to certain people, and I hope that between now and 1939 a new and more enlightened Government will have taken the present Government's place and raised the school-leaving age to even higher than 15.
  10.28 p.m.
  Mr. HARDIE: One thing that astounded me to-night was the Secretary of State for Scotland, when he said that this was a real Education Bill. I cannot understand anyone, with even an elementary education, who had read the Bill saying that. The whole of the Bill deals with the question of poverty. The whole Bill is class legislation. It does not deal with all the children in Scotland; it only deals with the unfortunate children who happen to be born, by accident, into severe economic conditions. There is nothing educational in the Bill, and I am prepared to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland on a platform in his own constituency to prove if there is anything relating to education in the Bill. I lay that challenge down to-night. The whole idea underlying this Bill is to get a return to mental serfdom in Scotland. We have had to-day, even from the Northern counties' representatives, the fact that it is essential to get the child back on to the croft. That means the destruction of the mind of that individual, because you take from that individual its access to education. If this had been called a Destruction of Education Bill, it would have been a very proper title. We seem in the North of Scotland to be getting back to the industrial hind. In the industrial areas we have got the men broken down with poverty so far that they are what is called, by a good many people opposite, eating out of their hands.
  If you take this Bill in another section what do you find? You find the whole mental outlook of the Members on the other side is based upon the fact that they have no personal experience nor can they
  740
  visualise the conditions of life where economic strain takes the child from school. None of the Members opposite realise what poverty means. They do not know what it means to be taken from school to work when they want to be at school at their lessons. They do not realise what it means to be taken from school to the mine. The poverty question should not be allowed to measure the accident of birth. The accident of birth should place the child outside the deprivation of the one thing we believe makes a man or woman in a mental sense, namely, education. Now we find the Secretary of State for Scotland saying that this is a real education Bill. One could understand the Secretary of State being in favour of more education if for no other reason than that more people being able to read would mean more purchasers of the books of the firm with which the right hon. Gentleman is connected. We often discuss in the House the physical starvation of the child. It is called malnutrition, but all it means is that the child is not getting enough to eat. This Bill aims at the mental starvation of the child. In these days someone comes along with claims to be associated with science and he makes deductions from things we all know, and it is called the effort for statistical deduction. They work out pages of graphs, but their accuracy does not feed the kids who require food. In education you do not play with graphs and figures unless they speak of realities. I am sure that the Secretary of State does not understand what I am saying.
  Mr. MICHAEL BEAUMONT: Nor anybody else.
  Mr. HARDIE: I did not expect the hon. Member who interrupts to be able to understand anything educational. I applied that observation more to the Secretary of State. There is something you cannot buy at a university. In conclusion, let me say that this Bill is not an Education Bill and the name of those who are associated with it in days to come will stink in the nostrils of the people of Scotland. I can imagine that the boys and girls who are going to be maltreated under this Measure, who will be deprived of rights to education, will in the future have sufficient sense, even with the skimpy education they have been able to obtain,

  741
  to turn and rend these education arrangements.
  10.35 p.m.
  Mr. WESTWOOD: From beginning to end of the discussions on this Bill, both on the Committee stage upstairs and on the Report stage, we on this side of the House have done our best, with our limited knowledge of administration and of the difficulties that stand in the way, to improve the Bill, but with all its improvements there are certain Clauses in the Bill on which we differ fundamentally from hon. Members opposite, and we have now before the House a reasoned Amendment for the rejection of the Bill and I am supporting it. I was rather interested in the statement by the Secretary of State for Scotland in which he said that he envied the way in which we could draft manifestos and draft reasoned Amendments. I am afraid that I am not in the happy position of being able to envy the Government for the way in which they drafted their manifesto at the General Election, nor can I appreciate, as hon. Members opposite would like me to appreciate, their alleged sincere desire to adhere to the letter and spirit of that manifesto. I am afraid that Scottish Members who sit opposite have not read the whole of that manifesto, otherwise they would have been demanding in the Bill before the House something at least slightly different from that which applies to England. The manifesto of the Government stated that education must always take a foremost place in social progress and that
  "for some time past the Government have been engaged in drawing up a comprehensive scheme of reform."
  It goes on:
  "including the raising of the school age to 15 with exemptions for children who can obtain satisfactory employment."
  That is not the part of the manifesto which dealt with Scotland and I am afraid that far too many of my colleagues from Scotland—I mean colleagues merely as representatives of Scotland and not my political colleagues—were not careful to read the paragraph of the manifesto dealing with Scottish questions. There the manifesto said:
  "Scottish problems will continue to receive sympathetic attention."
  742
  It stated further:
  "but in many spheres separate treatment is necessary to meet the special circumstances of Scotland."
  I submit that in education Scotland requires special treatment as compared with England. We have claimed for a long time that Scotland led the way in education. England has rapidly been catching up in other matters. Scotland has mainly been tied to its present rate of progress by the financial conditions affecting the provision of education in Scotland. We are entirely dependent upon the expenditure in England. No special provision was made in the Financial Resolution to enable Scotland to make the progress which she desires to make in education.
  There are three reasons why I shall oppose the Bill on Third Reading. Let me first point out that there is nothing in the Government's manifesto to lead the people of Scotland to believe that it would be 1939 before even this miserable Measure was put into operation. The Bill delays until 1939 even the minimum of progress which is provided by the Bill, which means at least 1940 before anyone gets advantage from the Bill. This House ought to reject this Measure. I oppose the Bill because of the exemption Clauses I will not say that it will be impossible to administer the Bill, but my knowledge of administration tells me that it will be extremely difficult to do so. I know that my colleagues in Scottish local administration will face the difficulties, but you are making local administration almost impossible when you impose this burden upon men and women who voluntarily give their services in the local administration of Scotland. The problems will be exceedingly great. Upon your own estimate, 50 per cent. of the children between 14 years and 15 years of age will be liable to be exempted. All those applications will have to be considered by these voluntary bodies. The problems of local administration are great enough at present, but you are adding another problem which will make it almost, if not quite, impossible to carry the burden.
  There is a Clause in the Bill giving enabling powers to Scottish education authorities to provide playing fields and other things referred to in Clause 8, as well as to make certain improvements,

  743
  in connection with physical instruction. The strange point is that this is an extension of the general powers of education authorities contained in the Education Act, 1908, I think it is, and that there are education authorities who have not yet exercised those general powers. Very few local authorities in Scotland have used the power enabling them to supply free books for children in their education area. That is one of the general powers. Very few, if any of our education authorities, provide travelling facilities, particularly for the young children, for distances inside the three-mile radius. There are cases, and no one should know this better than the Under-Secretary of State, who, I understand, is responsible politically for the administration of education in Scotland, where difficulties have arisen in getting local authorities to provide travelling facilities even outside the three-mile limit. Now you are adding another power, and expecting local authorities to exercise it when, because of their financial disabilities, they cannot utilise the powers already contained in the main Act. For that reason—that it is only humbug to give additional powers to local authorities unless they are given the finance with which to carry out those powers—I think this Bill ought to be rejected.
  I have often noticed what I thought was well-feigned indignation on the part of hon. Members opposite when we have suggested during the discussions on this Bill that they ought not to support the principle of exemptions contained in the Bill. I have also noticed what I thought was well-feigned indignation when it was suggested that they might go back on the pledges contained in the manifesto to which I have already referred. When that manifesto dealt with the robbing of the children of Scotland of their rightful educational inheritance, there was well-feigned indignation, but sometimes there appeared to me to be undisguised satisfaction when it meant going back on the pledges they had made to provide collective security to save those children from the horrors of future war.
  May I remind the House that at least 80 per cent. of my colleagues on this side were denied the opportunity of a school education to equip us efficiently for the
  744
  battle of life? In the race of life you want as few handicaps as possible. Some of us have known the bitterness of the struggle and the heartbreaking efforts to overcome those heavy handicaps, not erected by Nature, not due to any lack of desire on the part of our parents to see that we got the best, but erected because, in our childhood's days, we had to experience the galling effects of the poverty which surrounded the lives of our parents and of ourselves. I submit that every child ought to be equipped as fully as is possible educationally for the battle of life. Competition is so keen, and the fight is so great that, as has already been said from this side of the House, you cannot afford to give less than the best in the way of educational opportunities for the children of our race. This Bill does not do that. It is the child units that make the nation of to-morrow, and, when you equip the child, you equip the nation to maintain its place among the nations of the earth.
  The Murdocks, the Stephensons, the Watts, the Kelvins, and others have given us a mechanical and a scientific heritage of which we are all entitled to be proud. That heritage has been made possible now, not three years hence—not by putting employment first, but by putting the educational uplift of our people first, in order that Scotland's children may enter into their educational heritage. This Bill, by the political ineptitude of the Government opposite, denies to our children what the mechanical, inventive and scientific genius of our people has now made possible. We fight for Scotland's children to get the best. This Bill does not even provide us with the second best. It is only a makeshift, and, because of that, we shall go into the Lobby to vote against the Third Reading of the Bill.
  10.49 p.m.
  Mr. GALLACHER: Much of the discussion that I have heard to-night has, in my opinion, emphasised the very urgent need for an extended age for education in Scotland. But we not only want an extended age; we want it immediately. There are two points to which I desire to draw special attention. One is the urgent need for making this Bill operable not in 1939, but at the latest in 1937. The other is the question of parents and education. We have at present a large number of teachers who cannot get

  745
  employment. When this Bill was introduced I got several letters, and I want to draw attention to one or two of them. One says:
  "As an unemployed teacher I am writing you this note in the hope that you may be able to induce the Government to bring forward the date for raising the school age."
  This teacher has got optimism if she thinks that I or anyone else can move this Government in a progressive direction. That is the appeal she makes, and she is one of many who would have the possibility of employment if the date was brought forward to 1937. Another writes:
  "Meanwhile we people who are just fresh from college are being allowed to stagnate. … My heart sickens when I see my colleagues who qualified two years ago."
  These are young people who have been trained and on whom money has been spent to make them teachers. Surely if we are concerned with education we should make the earliest possible date in order to provide employment for them. I know that not only do the parents not want the children out of school, but the school masters do not want them out of school. A case came to my notice at home the other week of a boy who was being talked about as being taken out of school for employment. The headmaster sent for the guardian of that boy in order to persuade' him that it would be an injustice to the boy to take him out of school. The Lord Advocate says that they may be taken out at 14 and put into a job in the home which will develop character. There is not a job that can be mentioned but will kill character, and not develop it. I have another letter here which says:
  "My mother was widowed when I was six months old and she worked day and night, often all night, as a nurse to educate me. … That was two years ago. Since then I have been on the waiting list."
  The writer tells how she got a job as a canvasser for electric cleaners and went to 109 doors and never got an order. I appeal to the Government to bring forward an Act that will be of advantage to teachers and to children, and to put an end to what is called "beneficial employment."
  10.55 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: We have now reached the last stage of this Measure, before it leaves us for another
  746
  place. The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) made his usual stout advocacy of the point of view that he holds. I gathered the impression that he found it a little difficult to make a strong case that the Bill is a failure and a fraud. We have had very extravagant expressions used about it, yet the hon. Member who spoke last urged us to bring it into operation at the earliest possible moment. The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) referred to the Government's manifesto at the last election, but where does his party stand? The official manifesto of the Labour party did not contain any reference to Scotland. The Measure has had very careful consideration in Committee. We held 12 meetings and we received assistance from all sides of the Committee. We could not always agree with the advice that was tendered to us but there were occasions on which we could co-operate together to improve the Bill. Our sittings were rather protracted. We adjourned for a short time for the convenience of certain Members who wished to attend the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, but, if I remember rightly, we resisted the request of other Members that we should adjourn for a highly competitive event held near Epsom on another day.
  We thrashed the Bill out thoroughly and it now comes back to the House. We make no apology for it. We regard it as a real advance in education. When Part 1 comes into operation children between the ages of 14 and 15 will be kept at school unless they go into employment which the education authority is satisfied is beneficial to them and which their parents wish them to enter. The fact that an increased number of children will remain at school until 15 will make it possible to improve and extend facilities for education beyond the primary stage, which normally ends about 12. For those who will enter employment between 14 and 15 the Bill makes a notable advance on the present state of affairs. The education authority must be satisfied that the employment is beneficial to the child and stipulations are within the power of the authority to see that these conditions are carried out. These safeguards go far beyond anything in the existing law on the subject.
  It also abolishes the present system of exemptions between 12 and 14. In the

  747
  case of children over 14 exemptions, as distinguished from the grant of a certificate for beneficial employment; will be allowed only when the conditions in the child's home are such that there would be exceptional hardship if they were not granted. We regard the Bill in its present form and the provision it makes for exempting a child in case of hardship as a practical way of dealing with this particular problem.
  In addition to Clauses relating to school attendance, there are in Part II of the Bill a number of important and valuable provisions which will effect a substantial advance in various directions. The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) complained that these provisions did not go as far as he would desire in dealing with mentally defective children. He wished the Bill to be not an education Bill, but a general social service Measure dealing with all sorts of problems.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I said that the portion of the Bill dealing with mentally defective children ought not to appear in the Measure, and that you should have a separate Bill dealing with the problem of defective and crippled children.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: Let me tell the hon. Gentleman that responsible opinion in Scotland approves the provisions made in the Bill for dealing with the defective child, and that his point of view is not held in any responsible quarter in Scotland.
  Mr. MAXTON: Whom did you consult?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: Every education authority in Scotland approved Part II of the Bill in relation to defective children, and the hon. Member for Gorbals knows that quite well.
  Mr. MAXTON: The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) was clear and precise, that the problem of the mentally defective is not one that ends at the school-leaving age but goes on through life, and if you are to consult experts, they must be other than education authorities.
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: The hon. Member is pleading for the rejection of the Bill, and yet the provisions of Part II of the Bill have been welcomed all over Scotland. Both in Committee and during other stages of the Bill these opinions
  748
  have been propounded, and I do not think it necessary to go over them again to-night. The minor Amendments included in the Schedule will pave the way for a much-needed consolidation of the Acts relating to education in Scotland.
  Mr. WESTWOOD: Will it be possible, arising out of the changes, to have a conference as soon as possible of the teachers and the local authorities with a view to arranging amicably the changes in connection with the national minimum scale of salaries?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I will bear in mind what the hon. Member says. I am going to speak in a moment on some conferences which we shall hold. The Bill lays new duties on education authorities. The local administration of education in Scotland has a long and honourable history, and the Government look with confidence for the co-operation of the authorities in administering the new Measure. When the Bill becomes law, we intend to have conferences with local education authorities to discuss the arrangements which will be necessary following the passing of this Bill. There will be full consultation with regard to the action to follow, The teacher, no less than the local administrator, stands to gain by the Bill. It will increase his opportunities and responsibilities, and it will also lessen unemployment among teachers, which has been a cause of grave concern. The hon. Gentleman the Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) spoke of it to-night, and said that if the date could be accelerated it would do still more to help the employment of the teacher. We have chosen 1939 as the date because we think that it is the earliest date for the whole country, to go forward. The position of the employment of teachers has already improved, and I am confident that the Measure will greatly assist the problem of the employment of teachers in Scotland.
  When I first read the Amendment moved by the Opposition it seemed to me that they must think it is a bad Bill, but when I read it again, I felt that they were simply doing their duty. It is the duty of an opposition to oppose and to look for the worst possible construction that they can put on every action of the Government. I do not complain of that, but there was rather a hollow ring in

  749
  their protests to-night. Say what they will, they wish, this Act to go to the Statute Book as early as possible. There are, of course, fundamental points of difference between us. There is the question of exemption for beneficial employment. On that subject I do not expect that I can convert hon. Members opposite and I do not expect that they will convert me. We have discussed the question fully, and I do not agree with their policy and they do not agree with mine. We differ, but let us go forward with this Measure, which will be welcomed as a whole.
  Hon. Members have, no doubt, a policy in relation to this question of the raising of the school-leaving age. but it is a policy which has not been very clearly stated or well thought out. I disagree with them in their attitude with regard to raising the school-leaving age without exemption. Be that as it may, we have
  together worked out the Bill which we present for Third Reading to-night.
  Hon. Members opposite are continually asserting that this Government is in a shaky condition, and that they will hail its fall with joy. When the appointed day for this Measure coming into operation, three years hence, is reached, and the life of this Parliament is still maintained, the National Government will go to the country with the strong record of its administration fortified still further with the weight of public opinion behind the Measure which we are passing to-night.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 153; Noes, 95.

  Division No. 271.]

  AYES.

  [11.8 p.m.

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Furness, S. N.

  Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

  Aske, Sir R. W.

  Fyfe, D. P. M.

  Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

  Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

  Ganzonl, Sir J.

  Munro, P.

  Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.

  Gledhill, G.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Goodman, Col. A. W.

  Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H.

  Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

  Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Blindell, Sir J.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Guest,Maj.Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Guy, J. C. M.

  Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Hanbury, Sir C.

  Petherick, M.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Hannah, I. C.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen, H. C. (Newbury)

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Raikes, H. V. A. M.

  Bull, B. B.

  Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

  Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

  Butler, R. A.

  Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

  Rankin, R.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

  Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

  Cary, R. A.

  Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

  Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Remer, J. R.

  Chorlton, A. E. L.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

  Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

  Colfox, Major W. P.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

  Co ns, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

  Hunter, T.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J.

  Jackson, Sir H.

  Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

  Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

  Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

  Salmon, Sir I.

  Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'burgh,W.)

  Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)

  Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Kimball, L.

  Scott, Lord William

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Kirkpatrick, W. M.

  Selley, H. R.

  Crooke, J. S.

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Shakespeare, G. H.

  Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

  Leckie, J. A.

  Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

  Cross, R. H.

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Crowder, J. F. E.

  Llddall, W. S.

  Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

  Cruddas, Col. B.

  Llewellin, Lieut.-Col, J. J.

  Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Lloyd, G. W.

  Spens, W. P.

  Dawson, Sir P.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)

  De Chair, S. S.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

  Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)

  Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

  MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Scot. U.)

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Dugdale, Major T. L.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

  Tasker, Sir R. I.

  Duggan, H. J.

  MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Duncan, J. A. L.

  Macdonald, Capt.- P. (Isle of Wight)

  Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

  Eckersley, P. T.

  McKie, J. H.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Maclay, Hon. J. P.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

  Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

  Elliston, G. S.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Waterhouse, Captain C.

  Emery, J. F.

  Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Errington, E.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

  Erskine Hill, A. G.

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Womersley, Sir W. J.

  Flides, Sir H.

  Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

  Findlay, Sir E.

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Sir George Penny and Mr. James

  Stuart.

  NOES.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

  Groves, T. E.

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Adamson, W. M.

  Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

  Potts, J.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Hardie, G. D.

  Pritt, D. N.

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Richards, R. (Wrexham)

  Banfield, J. W.

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Ritson, J.

  Barr, J.

  Hills, A. (Pontefract)

  Rowson, G.

  Batey, J.

  Hopkin, D.

  Sexton, T. M.

  Bellenger, F.

  John, W.

  Silkin, L.

  Benson, G.

  Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

  Bevan, A.

  Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Broad, F. A.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)

  Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Buchanan, G.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Stephen, C.

  Burke, W. A.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

  Chater, D.

  Leach, W.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Lee, F.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Cocks, F. S.

  Leonard, W

  Tinker, J. J.

  Cove, W. G.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Viant, S. P.

  Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

  Macdonald, G. (Ince)

  Walkden, A. G.

  Daggar, G.

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Walker, J.

  Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

  MacLaren, A.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Maclean, N.

  Welsh, J. C.

  Dobbie, W.

  MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

  Westwood, J.

  Ede, J. C.

  MacNeill, Weir, L.

  White, H. Graham

  Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Marklew, E.

  Williams, T. (Don Valley)

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Marsha, F.

  Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

  Foot, D. M.

  Maxton, J.

  Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

  Gallacher, W.

  Messer, F.

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Gardner, B. W.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

  Paling, W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Parker, J.

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers.

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Parkinson, J. A.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  CROWN LANDS BILL.
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [29th June], "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  Question again proposed.
  11.18 p.m.
  Mr. KELLY: There is a reference in this Bill to Scotland Yard and to the building to be erected for the Commissioner of Police. Does this mean that there is recognition of the Metropolitan Police as being a Government Department, with all the privileges that attach to a Government Department when it comes to the erection of buildings, the sites of buildings, and the obtaining of land? If that be so, I want to know why it is that the Metropolitan Police are placed in a category different from that of the police in other parts of the country. I certainly strongly object to this being looked upon as a Government Department and claiming privileges that are not held by the police forces in the country.
  11.19 p.m.
  The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): I would say that this does not put the Metropolitan Police in any such position. It merely deals with a very small area of land, and in the building
  752
  concerned makes it possible for certain agency work to be done on behalf of the police. It in no way alters the general position of the Metropolitan Police.
  11.20 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: While warmly supporting the Bill, there are one or two points which I wish to put to my right hon. Friend. I endeavoured on the Report stage to move a new Clause, but for certain reasons I did not press my proposal. I now realise that I have to some extent given up a right which I might otherwise have had of intervening in this Debate. At the same time, I find in the Bill one or two matters of outstanding importance to which I should like to refer. Any moneys that are required are to be provided by Parliament, in other words by the subject.
  That brings me to the point, What are the rights of the subject in relation to the Crown, and in mentioning the Crown I am, of course, merely alluding to those Government Departments which are responsible for the administration of Crown property. The ordinary subject apparently has no rights vis-a-vis the Crown. The home-coming cyclist may be pushed down by a Post Office van and he has no redress. The inoffensive pedestrian may be crashed into by an Army lorry and he has no rights in law. There is the

  753
  further and more classic and also more appropriate example of the leaseholder of Crown property. The leaseholder of Crown property is in a peculiar position. He pays, but gets little or nothing in return. At least, it is entirely in the discretion of the Minister—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I do not see any Clause in the Bill referring to leaseholders.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: I was merely quoting that as an example showing the insufficiency of the rights of the subject against these Government Departments.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has been long enough in the House to know that on the Third Reading we can only deal with what is in the Bill.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: I fully accept your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for there is no one whose opinion on these matters is of greater value, but if you will bear with me for a moment, I think I can show that I was merely endeavouring to give an example. I was pointing out that the subject is the person who pays for what is in the Bill, who pays for these buildings that are to be erected in Whitehall. Therefore, it is most important to analyse the rights of the subject in regard to the Crown or these Government Departments.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I hardly think that that would arise on the Third Reading; it might have been raised on the Second Reading.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: I must submit to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but perhaps you would allow me to appeal to my right hon. Friend the Minister to receive in private discussion some of the observations which I might otherwise have felt compelled to make at this stage as regards Crown property. I have no wish to hold the attention of the House longer, but perhaps my right hon. Friend would indicate his willingness to have a consultation with the representatives of these Crown tenants.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-five Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

  WORLD ECONOMIC RECONSTRUCTION.
  WORLD ECONOMIC RECONSTRUCTION.
  SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH EXPENDITURE.
  SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH EXPENDITURE.
LAND PURCHASE.
  CEMETERY, BEBINGTON.
  CEMETERY, BEBINGTON.
  HOUSING, LIVERPOOL.
  HOUSING, LIVERPOOL.
  STREET WIDENING, LUTON.
  STREET WIDENING, LUTON.
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, MERTHYR AND CARDIFF.
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, MERTHYR AND CARDIFF.
EDUCATION.
  FREE MEALS IN SCHOOLS.
  FREE MEALS IN SCHOOLS.
  UNEMPLOYED TEACHERS, WALES.
  UNEMPLOYED TEACHERS, WALES.
  NURSERY SCHOOLS, WALES.
  NURSERY SCHOOLS, WALES.
  CINEMAS IN SCHOOLS.
  CINEMAS IN SCHOOLS.
  MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
  MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  URUGUAY.
  URUGUAY.
  TRADE AGREEMENTS.
  TRADE AGREEMENTS.
  COMPULSORY INSURANCE (COMMITTEE).
  COMPULSORY INSURANCE (COMMITTEE).
  PIG-IRON OUTPUT.
  PIG-IRON OUTPUT.
  TRAFFIC CONGESTION, LONDON.
  TRAFFIC CONGESTION, LONDON.
  AUSTRIA (INDEPENDENCE).
  AUSTRIA (INDEPENDENCE).
  GERMANY (BRITISH QUESTIONNAIRE).
  GERMANY (BRITISH QUESTIONNAIRE).
  HOLIDAYS WITH PAY.
  HOLIDAYS WITH PAY.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  TRANSFERENCE (GIRLS' LODGINGS, LONDON).
  TRANSFERENCE (GIRLS' LODGINGS, LONDON).
  ROCHESTER AND GRAVESEND.
  ROCHESTER AND GRAVESEND.
  MINES DEPARTMENT (PENSIONED EMPLOYES).
  MINES DEPARTMENT (PENSIONED EMPLOYES).
INDIA.
  SOCIALIST PARTY.
  SOCIALIST PARTY.
  LUCKNOW TEXTILE UNION.
  LUCKNOW TEXTILE UNION.
  BURMA (UNION JACKS ON MOTOR-CARS).
  BURMA (UNION JACKS ON MOTOR-CARS).
  WAR MEMOIRS (OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS).
  WAR MEMOIRS (OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS).
  ALDERSHOT TATTOO.
  ALDERSHOT TATTOO.
  SOUTHERN RHODESIA.
  SOUTHERN RHODESIA.
  PALESTINE.
  PALESTINE.
  MALAYA.
  MALAYA.
  ADMIRALTY (OIL-TANKERS, CHARTERING).
  ADMIRALTY (OIL-TANKERS, CHARTERING).
SCOTLAND.
  BEATH MINERAL WORKINGS (SUBSIDENCE).
  BEATH MINERAL WORKINGS (SUBSIDENCE).
  HEALTH DEPARTMENT (COSTING RETURNS).
  HEALTH DEPARTMENT (COSTING RETURNS).
  MILK RE-ORGANISATION COMMISSION.
  MILK RE-ORGANISATION COMMISSION.
  PETTY SESSIONAL COURTS PROCEDURE.
  PETTY SESSIONAL COURTS PROCEDURE.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, THE LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (EALING AND SHEPHERD'S BUSH RAILWAY EXTENSION) BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

CANNOCK ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1936.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH): My Lords, with reference to this Order, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

DARLINGTON CORPORATION TROLLEY VEHICLES (ADDITIONAL ROUTES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
DERBY CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
DONCASTER CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (GLOUCESTER) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
READING CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
AIR NAVIGATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
ROAD TRAFFIC (DRIVING LICENCES) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

PENSIONS (GOVERNORS OF DOMINIONS, ETC.) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK moved to insert the following new clause after Clause 1:
Amendment of s. 12 of principal Act.
". Subsection (1) of Section twelve of the principal Act shall have effect as if in the definition of ' Governor,' the words ' and of British India ' were omitted."
The noble Viscount said: The Amendment which stands in my name follows upon a few observations which I ventured

409
to make on the Second Reading of this Bill. In the course of those remarks I advocated that Indian Governors—and I refer particularly to those of political origin—should come under the provisions of the Bill, and that these Indian Governors should be dealt with in the same way as, for instance, are Governors of the Australian States. The point that I particularly wished to make was that supposing a Governor of an Australian State served for five years in that State, say the State of Victoria, and subsequently went to India and became Governor of Bombay where he served for another five years, making ten in all, he should be just as eligible to receive a pension as a Governor who had served for five years in Victoria to begin with and subsequently five years in South Australia making ten years in all. Or, conversely, if a Governor of political origin served in Bombay for five years and then subsequently was considered to have such qualifications that it was desirable that he should serve for another five years in India, say in the Province of Madras, he should be eligible to receive a pension just as Governors are eligible to receive pensions if they have served in two Australian States.
I believe that that is a perfectly fair and equitable proposition, and whilst I recognise that in the past Indian Governors have not received pensions and that such pensions have always been regarded as being part of the Indian Government Service, I see no reason why a Governor who is sent to India after public service in this country should not be regarded on the same plane as is the similar type of individual who is sent to an Australian State. For that reason I have put down this Amendment to the principal Act to enable Indian Governors of the class that I have described to receive Governors' pensions in future. It is true that my Amendment may go a little too far in its drafting, but it was very difficult for me to find the exact wording that was required in order to achieve what I desired to do. I can only put forward this Amendment in the hope that the Government may receive it sympathetically, and if it can be worded in some way to meet the position which I have outlined I shall be very grateful. I am sure that many others who are interested in this subject will also be grateful.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 1 insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Elibank.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: As I promised on the Second Reading, I have gone very carefully into the point that the noble Viscount has raised. Nobody can be unsympathetic to the case he has put forward. May I explain the position? As the law stands at the present moment any one who serves as a Governor in any part of His Majesty's Dominions, exclusive of the British Islands and British India, for a period of not less than ten years becomes eligible for a pension. The object, or the effect at any rate, of the noble Viscount's Amendment is to revoke the exclusion of British India from this provision. The actual effect of the Amendment would be to make all persons holding Governorships in India Governors for all purposes of the Pensions (Governors of Dominions, etc.) Acts—the various Acts which deal with that particular subject. In other words, it would render them eligible for pensions from the United Kingdom Exchequer upon the same terms as Governors of Colonies. This means that any one who has served as a Governor-General, Governor of a Presidency, or Governor of a Province, in India, and who has completed ten years as such, would be eligible for a pension from the United Kingdom Exchequer.
I ought to explain further, what perhaps is not quite fully realised, that if this Amendment is accepted Indian Provincial Governors, who are almost invariably promoted from the Indian Civil Service and consequently draw pensions by virtue of that Service, would be further eligible—that is, in addition to those pensions—for a pension from the United Kingdom Exchequer. I feel quite certain that that is not what the noble Viscount intended.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: That is not what is intended. I tried to explain in my speech that I do not wish to include members of the Indian Civil Service who become Governors. I was referring particularly to those who come from here owing to public service, political service or otherwise, and I believe that as my Amendment is drafted it may not meet that point of view. I wish we could get

411
an Amendment, perhaps on the Report stage or Third Reading, that would meet that point of view.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I quite appreciate what the noble Viscount says, but I am merely pointing out what the actual effect of his Amendment would be. As a matter of fact, what the noble Viscount terms a political, that is to say a non-Service Presidency Governor in India, would only very rarely be affected by this Amendment, because it is only on very rare occasions that such a Governor actually completes ten years of service. But that is merely a detail. However that may be, I am not really quite clear as to whether it is the desire of the noble Viscount that Indian Governors, such as those to whom we have been referring—namely, the political Governors—should become eligible for pensions actually from the United Kingdom Exchequer.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I say that is my view? I believe in this case that there would be very few of them, and it would be worth while.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: If that is so I cannot see how, in view of the past history of this question—that is, the pensions of Indian Governors—the Government could accept this additional burden upon the United Kingdom Exchequer. It would be a radical deviation from the policy which has obtained up till now in the treatment of Indian Governors, because I think I am right in saying that up till now no pension has ever been paid from the United Kingdom Exchequer to Governors who have been Governors of Indian Presidencies or Provinces. The noble Viscount told me that it was his desire that these pensions should be paid from the United Kingdom Exchequer. Therefore there is no object in my going into detail on the other alternative, which is that these pensions should be paid from Indian revenue. As I have pointed out, in the past the pay of Indian Governors has been fixed at a rate which is considered adequate and on the understanding that no pensions should as the result of their service. I think it only right to remind the Committee that this is a matter which perhaps could have been more properly dealt with when we were discussing the Government of India Bill last year, because it was in that Bill that detailed provisions were made for the salaries
412
and allowances of the Governors-General and Governors of India. I must further point out that that Act makes no provision, as your Lordships know, for Governors' pensions. As I understand it this was done deliberately for the reasons I have already pointed out—namely, that there was never any intention of making these posts pensionable. Therefore, the matter was not raised during the course of the debates on that measure.
There is just one other consideration I want to mention. I do not wish to over-stress it, but it is one that cannot be entirely ignored purely for practical reasons. It is that this Amendment would have the effect of placing upon the Exchequer a new burden quite outside the original scope of the Bill. This Bill really was meant to deal with certain inequalities and injustices in the methods of fixing the pensions of Colonial Governors, and there was no intention of bringing within its scope the Governors of Indian Presidencies or Provinces. I therefore feel it would not be practical politics to return this Bill to another place with an Amendment such as the one which the noble Viscount has proposed. The point that the noble Viscount has raised is one which should be considered on its merits, I entirely agree, but I do not think—and I hope your Lordships will agree with me—that it is one which can very well be dealt with in the measure we are discussing to-day. I hope that after that full explanation the noble Viscount will not press his Amendment.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I am glad to note the sympathetic tone of the last remark made by my noble friend but, having regard to the substance of his speech, I have very little hope that that sympathetic tone will be translated into something practical. However, in view of what the noble Earl has said, I do not propose to press this Amendment. I would only reiterate that I hope the Government may see their way to take this matter into consideration with the Government of India and see whether something can be done to remedy it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

SHOPS (SUNDAY TRADING RESTRICTION) BILL.
Order of the day for the House to be put into Committee read.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Marquess of Dufferin and Ava.)
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: My Lords, before we proceed to the consideration of this important and certainly most complicated Bill, I hope your Lordships will allow me to ask the Leader of the House one or two questions, which questions, when they are answered, will enable us to see more clearly what is going to happen to the Bill and what will be the result of our voting "Content" or "Not-Content." The first point I should like to put to the noble Viscount who leads the House is this: Who is in charge of the Bill? The noble Marquess whose name appeared on the Order Paper for the Second Reading is here and I presume is still in charge of the Bill, but he has put down no Amendments at all, so I presume he is quite satisfied with his Bill. My next question is: Do the Government accept responsibility for the Bill? I presume they must. They have put down fifteen pages of Amendments. Surely they could not allow their spokesman to get up and put forward any one of these Amendments without putting their whole force behind him to ensure that the House agreed with what he put forward. Lastly, I should like to know whether the Government Whips will be put on. Surely you could not refrain from putting on the Government Whips on a Bill to which the promoter has put down no Amendments and the Government have put down fifteen pages. Perhaps the noble Viscount can enlighten me on these points.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, I am extremely obliged to my noble friend for having given me notice of these constitutional conundrums to which I must attempt an answer. His first question is: Who is in charge of the Bill? He correctly anticipated the answer. It is the noble Marquess who sits behind me, Lord
414
Dufferin. Does the Government accept responsibility for the Bill? The answer to that is that the Bill is, as my noble friend knows, a Private Member's Bill, and the interest of the Government in the Bill, which has always been treated as a Private Member's Bill, has been, I understand, confined to a promise to do their best to make it a workable Bill. It is in pursuance of that promise that the large number of Amendments on the Order Paper have been so placed. My noble friend Lord Munster will watch the Bill on behalf of the Government, and indeed, on the Second Reading, he informed your Lordships that a large number of Amendments would be necessary. The attitude of the Government to the Bill, if I may say so, might be, perhaps, not incorrectly described at this stage as one of irresponsible benevolence. The answer, therefore, to the third question, Will the Government Whips be put on to all these Amendments? is that these Amendments are in pursuance of the attempt to make the Bill a workable Bill, but are not in any sense of the order of Amendments to which the Government would attach such vital importance, from their point of view, as to justify them in putting on the Government Whips. It will be entirely for a free vote of your Lordships, on a Private Member's Bill, to decide whether these Amendments that the Government consider are the best way of redeeming their promise to make it a workable Bill, should or should not be incorporated.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, may I venture to suggest that when the Government wish to transform a Bill so radically as this one, they should circulate some explanatory memorandum before the Bill goes into Committee? I have no doubt that the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, has fully mastered the import of these Amendments.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Not at all.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: And I presume the noble Marquess in charge has, and I hope the Minister who is watching this Bill will be able to explain the various Amendments without infringing the wishes of your Lordships at large that a noble Lord should not read any speech.

415
But when I consider the mass of new matter that is in this massive tome which your Lordships hold in your hands, I do submit that so great a pabulum ought not to be submitted to your Lordships without some attempt at eupeptic emollient.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, perhaps I ought to say a word or two before we start the discussion on the Amendments. I did explain on Second Reading, and, if I remember rightly, I drew attention no less than twice to the fact that it would be necessary on the Committee stage of this Bill to put down a large number of Amendments to bring the measure into something approaching workmanlike order. The Amendments today fall into two classes. In the first place there are a number of purely drafting Amendments to which I have no doubt my noble friend will not object. The second series is made up of a number of Amendments of substance which I shall explain in the course of the discussion on the Bill. These Amendments reflect the results of a good deal of further consideration and inquiry by the Home Office since the first stage of the Bill in this House. We have been in consultation with the promoters and other associations connected with the Bill, and between them and us there have been drawn up the Amendments which stand in my name to-day. I do not think it is necessary for me to add anything further, except perhaps to draw the attention of the House to Clause 5 of the Bill which I am redrafting completely. I did that merely because I thought it would meet the wishes of your Lordships that we should have an entirely new clause at that place in the Bill instead of having a large number of small Amendments which might be somewhat difficult to understand. I hope, anyhow, that your Lordships will support the promoters of this Bill to-day and will be prepared to discuss the Amendments which are on the Paper.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, perhaps my noble friend Lord Munster will explain why it was that these Amendments were not put to the Standing Committee in the House of Commons, because the Bill has come to this House in a terrible state.
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, I think the preliminary exchange of information has been of value to your Lordships. It has cleared the air, and the lead given by the noble Viscount who leads the House of irresponsibility on the part of the Government—benevolent irresponsibility—we propose to apply to any Amendments or points that we may make on this side of the House. In other words, while even in the best organised Parties there are points of difference, on this occasion we shall leave those points of difference to individuals to emphasise or not as they desire.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: My Lords, perhaps I may add my voice to the general consensus of opinion that I am no fit person to take charge of this Bill, but I would like to say that the only reason why there are so many Amendments is that this is really a genuine attempt to get a good Bill and not a bad one. For that reason I would like to make it perfectly plain that the promoters and myself are extremely grateful to the Home Office for taking an immense amount of trouble to try to make this a good and workmanlike Bill. I feel it is rather unfair that Lord Mount Temple and others should complain that that which is a Private Member's Bill, and which he considers ought never to have been a Private Member's Bill, has been improved by the aid of a Government Department. As for the Government Whips, there are other ways of getting Amendments passed or rejected in your Lordships' House, and I propose to use not Government Whips but logic and reason.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: My Lords, by leave of the House I desire to ask: What shall we do if the reasons given by the noble Marquess do not agree with the advice given by the Government?
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Closing of shops on Sunday.
1. Every shop shall, save as otherwise provided by this Act, be closed for the serving of customers on Sunday.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE LORD MOUNT TEMPLE moved, after "Every shop," to insert "store, warehouse, fun fair, shop used for fun fairs,

417
wholesale warehouse." The noble Lord said: I hope your Lordships will forgive me if, owing to the extremely complicated nature and the number of the Amendments, I read a good many of the arguments that I bring forward to support my Amendments. I know it is a bad habit, but sometimes it means that you have taken more trouble over a Bill when you read your speech than when you simply get up and say a few words. With regard to the first Amendment that I move, may I say that I think, if we are endeavouring to pass a workmanlike measure dealing with Sunday trading, we ought to see that if at all possible we do not exclude classes of business or classes of people from the purview of the Bill.
The reason I want to include the words of my Amendment is simply this. In the East End of London, and at Leeds and other places, there has lately grown up a class of warehouse and wholesale business in which as a matter of fact retail trade is carried on on a Sunday. The wholesalers in their big warehouses compete with the small shopkeepers. That is perfectly legitimate, and I cannot complain of it, but, naturally, they take away a good deal of the small shopkeepers' trade. We are, rightly or wrongly, curtailing the opportunities for retail trade on Sunday by this Bill, but these warehouses are excluded from the purview of the Bill altogether, and, therefore, they can go on trading as before, because they are not shops within the meaning of the Bill. The point I want to make is that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and if Parliament thinks that the small retailer's shop should be closed on a Sunday why should it not also insist that the warehouses, which are in many respects retail traders, be closed too? I attach even greater importance to this because of the fact that inside these warehouses are a great number of employees who are engaged in work for the Monday or the Tuesday. They carry on their work on Sunday for the benefit of the owners of these businesses on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, and why should not the warehouse assistants in these big establishments, working as they do behind shutters with the place nominally closed, have the same protection as shop assistants who work in the retail shops?
I hope and trust that whoever is in charge of the Bill—I do not know whether to refer to the noble Marquess, Lord Dufferin and Ava, or the noble Earl, Lord Munster; the heavenly twins we will call them—will look favourably upon my Amendment, which is not designed to wreck the Bill but only to try and improve it.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 6, after (" shop ") insert (" store, warehouse, fun fair, shop used for fun fairs, wholesale warehouse ").—(Lord Mount Temple.)
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I very much regret that as far as the heavenly twins are concerned this one is in an evil quarter of the heavens for the noble Lord who moved this Amendment. This Bill is intended to deal with shops—that is to say, shops as defined under the 1912 Act. Never in the history of shop legislation have warehouses and wholesale establishments been brought within its provisions except in a very minor degree in 1934 with regard to the employment of children. Therefore I do not think that you could possibly expect us in a Bill of this kind so far to deviate from established practice as to widen its scope not merely to include retail shops but warehouses. I notice that the noble Lord who moved this Amendment did not refer very much in his speech to fun fairs. I think he was wise in that case because, as your Lordships will probably realise, either the Amendment has no relation to fun fairs at all or else so far as it is relevant the point is already covered in the Bill. Any retail business carried on in any fun fair is already dealt with by the Bill, and so far as the real business of a fun fair is concerned it has nothing to do with the provisions of the Bill. On those two grounds, that it would widen the Bill far too much and that as far as fun fairs are concerned it has very little relevance, I must ask your Lordships to reject the Amendment.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, at the end of the clause, to insert:
"Provided that a shop may be open for the serving of customers on Sunday—

419

(a) for the purposes of any transaction mentioned in the First Schedule to this Act; and

(b) until after the expiration of nine months from the commencement of this Act for the purposes of any transaction mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act."

The noble Earl said: This Amendment is really drafting, but perhaps I may say that the adoption of the wording in my Amendment will enable the somewhat elaborate provisions contained in the existing Clause 2 of the Bill to be substituted by the more simple proviso which I am now moving.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 7, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 [Exemption for certain trades or businesses]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out Clause 2. The noble Earl said: This is a consequential Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 2.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3:
Partial exemption orders.
3.—(1) The local authority may by order (in this Act referred to as a "partial exemption order") made in accordance with the provisions of this Act provide that all shops in which there are carried on such of the trades or businesses mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act as are specified in the order, being shops situated in the area of the authority or such part thereof as is so specified, may be open for the serving of customers on Sunday subject to the limitations hereafter provided.
(2) Subject to the provisions of this subsection, a partial exemption order shall not authorise a shop to be open for the serving of customers after ten o'clock on Sunday morning:
Provided that—
(a) an order affecting shops situated in places frequented as holiday resorts during certain seasons of the year may, for such period or periods as may be specified therein (not exceeding in the aggregate more than four months in any year), authorise the shops to which the order applies to be open until such hour later than ten o'clock on Sunday morning, not being later than one o'clock on Sunday afternoon, as may be so specified;
(3) Where there is carried on in the same shop any trade or business specified in a
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partial exemption order applying to the shop together with any other trade or business which is not so specified and is not for the time being and as respects that shop excepted from the provisions of Section one of this Act, the exemption conferred by the order shall apply to the shop only so far as the carrying on of the trade or business so specified is concerned and subject to such conditions as may be so specified.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in subsection (1), after "provide that," to leave out all words except "be open for the serving of customers on Sunday subject to the limitations hereafter provided" and insert "After the expiration of nine months from the commencement of this Act shops situated in their area or in such part thereof as is specified in the order may for the purposes of such of the transactions mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act as may be so specified." The noble Earl said: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 9, leave out from the beginning to (" be ") in line 13 and insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in subsection (2), to leave out paragraph (a). The noble Earl said: This Amendment is consequential, as a new clause which I shall move later makes special provisions for holiday resorts. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 20, leave out paragraph (a).—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 36, leave out subsection (3).—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, after Clause 3, to insert the following new clause:
Special provisions in respect of the sale of meals and refreshments off the premises.
" .—(1) Where the local authority are satisfied that the occupiers of shops or any class of shops which, by virtue of the provisions of this Act, may be open for the serving of customers on Sunday for the purpose of the sale of meals or refreshments for

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consumption elsewhere than at the shop at which they are sold, are desirous that such shops shall no longer be entitled to be so open, the local authority may by order made in accordance with the provisions of this Act provide that such shops or any class of such shops specified in the order, being shops situated in their area or in such part thereof as may be so specified, shall cease to be entitled to be open for the serving of customers on Sunday for that purpose:
Provided that no order made under this section shall—

(a) apply to shops in which the sale of meals or refreshments for consumption at the shop forms a substantial part of the business carried on therein; or

(b) prevent the sale on Sunday of meals and refreshments elsewhere than at a shop except to such extent and subject to such conditions as may be specified in the order.

(2) An order under this section may provide for the provisions thereof being in force throughout the year or during such periods as may be specified in the order, and may be made subject to such conditions as may be so specified."
The noble Earl said: This is the first of three new clauses which I propose to move and it deals with the sale of meals and refreshments for consumption off the premises. In explaining its effect I shall have to refer to the exemption which is contained in the First Schedule to the Bill for the sale of meals and refreshments for consumption off the premises. As the Bill stands, that exemption is limited to establishments such as restaurants or cafés, which do a substantial trade in the sale of meals and refreshments for consumption on the premises; but inquiry has shown that this restricted exemption would not be adequate to meet the needs of the public in all places. Accordingly, under an Amendment which I shall be moving later, it is proposed to restore the general exemption for the sale of refreshments.
However, and now I come to the point of this new clause which I am moving, if the exemption is so widened there is the possibility that some shopkeepers, bakers for instance, may keep their premises open on Sunday on the plea that they are selling their goods as "refreshments," to the detriment of their competitors who may have no wish to open their shops on Sunday. Therefore this new clause empowers the local authority, if they are satisfied that two-thirds of the shops concerned so desire, to make an order directing, in effect, that shops of any particular class, over the whole or
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any part of the district, shall not be open on Sunday for the off refreshment trade. I hope that I have sufficiently explained this new clause to your Lordships. I agree that it is somewhat difficult and complicated, but I understand that my noble friend the Marquess of Dufferin is prepared to support it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 3 insert the said new clause.(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, after Clause 3, to insert:
Provisions as to shops where several trades or businesses are carried on.
" . Where several trades or businesses are carried on in the same shop and any of those trades or businesses consist only of transactions of such a nature that if they were the only transactions carried on in the shop the provisions of this Act requiring the shop to be closed for the serving of customers for the whole or any part of Sunday would not apply to the shop, the shop may be kept open for the whole or any part of Sunday, as the case may be, for the purposes of those transactions alone, subject, however, to such conditions as may be prescribed."
The noble Earl said: This new clause provides for the case of the mixed shop, that is, a shop in which several trades or businesses are carried on. It is necessary to make it clear that where one or more of the trades or businesses carried on in a shop are exempt from the closing provisions of the Bill and others are not, the shop may only be kept open for the purposes of the exempted trades. The clause is on the same lines as the clauses in the existing Shops Act dealing with mixed shops, but is worded so as to cover the different circumstances which may arise under the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 3 insert the said new clause.(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, after Clause 3, to insert:
Special provisions for holiday resorts.
.—(1) Where the area or any part of the area of a local authority is a district which is frequented as a holiday resort during certain seasons of the year, the local authority may by order provide that on such Sundays as may be specified in the order, shops or any class of shops, being shops situated in the district or in such part thereof as may be so specified may,

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subject to such conditions and during such hours as may be so specified, be open for the serving of customers for the purpose of any of the transactions specified in the Third Schedule to this Act or such of them as may be specified in the order:
Provided that the Sundays specified in any such order shall not be more than eighteen in any year.
The noble Earl said: This new clause is one of importance and the noble Lord, Lord Mount Temple, has placed on the Paper an Amendment to it. During the discussion of this Bill in another place a new clause was moved with the object of making special provision for seaside resorts. The clause would have permitted the local authorities at seaside resorts to exempt from the closing provisions of this Bill any class of trade or business where an exemption was considered desirable in the interests of the persons frequenting the district. The clause was opposed. I need not delay the Committee by giving all the reasons for the opposition to that clause, but on the Third Reading of the Bill the Under-Secretary for the Home Department expressed the view that the needs of seaside and other resorts must be further considered. Since then inquiries have been made of local authorities at a large number of seaside resorts throughout the country and the Association of Health and Pleasure Resorts has also been consulted. As a result of the inquiries which the Home Office have made it is proposed to give power to local authorities at holiday resorts to exempt all or any of the transactions which are set out in the new Third Schedule which I shall be moving further on in the Bill.
It is not for the moment anticipated that every seaside resort will exempt all these transactions, but it is clear from inquiries that have been made that if hardships to visitors are to be avoided, the local authorities concerned must have power to permit the sale on Sunday of such of these commodities as would be, in their opinion, essential in the interests of visitors. I might add that the orders are subject to the provisions of Clause 4 and may not therefore be made unless two-thirds of each class of shopkeeper affected are in favour of the order. It is the view of the Government, and that after most careful inquiry, that nothing less than the provisions of the present clause and the new Third Schedule will
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be sufficient to meet the needs of the visitors to holiday resorts. I hope my noble friend will see that the new clause which I propose is, if I may say so, somewhat better than his. I hope that he will withdraw his and accept mine, and that the noble Marquess will agree to mine as well.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 3 insert the said new Clause.—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD STRABOLGI: Might I just ask the Government a question which I think will shorten matters? We have heard a good deal about agreements with the noble Marquess of Dufferin and Ava and with Viscount Bertie on the wording, and with the Government, and with the noble Lord, Lord Mount Temple, and so on, but these very substantial Amendments seem to make a large difference to the Bill, and I venture to ask the noble Earl who is speaking for the Government the following question. When this Bill left another place we understood that it was more or less an agreed measure—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No, no.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: No; if I might interrupt the noble Lord, that is quite wrong. The Under-Secretary for the Home Department stated, not once or twice but again and again, that on arrival in this House a very large number of Amendments would have to be made; and, if I might mention it, I made that point myself twice upon the Second Reading of the Bill.
LORD STRABOLGI: Yes, but that does not lessen the value of the question I want to put to the noble Earl. Have the unions concerned—who, after all, have great interest in this matter—been consulted, directly or indirectly, or through the usual channels, or by the Home Office officials? I refer to the Shop Assistants' Union and the National Union of Distributive Workers. It makes a difference, obviously, to my noble friends on this side. We try to work with our colleagues in another place in the same Party, who represent these unions which have many thousands of members who are intimately affected, and if we can be assured that they are in favour of these Amendments we shall be very glad to hear it, but we should like to have some information from the Government.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I may say in reply that ray noble friend the Marquess of Dufferin and Ava has been in communication with trade associations, and with a variety of associations dealing with particular classes of shops, who are in favour of this Bill and of these new Amendments which stand in ray name to-day.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am very much obliged to the noble Earl, and I should like also, if possible without any disrespect to him, to hear at first hand what happened when the noble Marquess made this explanation. We have heard of the trade associations; those are the shopkeepers; but I was speaking about the associations representing the shop assistants—for example, the Shop Assistants' Union and the National Union of Distributive Workers. There are several of them, representing many thousands of people who are intimately affected. I hope that the noble Marquess has not forgotten their existence, because, if so, I shall have to remind him quite forcibly of it in the course of this debate.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I should like to say this. As late as this morning I was in close consultation with all the promoters of the Bill, and although I did not ask them directly whether in fact the workers themselves have been consulted, as they have been consulted throughout hitherto, I have no doubt whatsoever that they would soon have told me if there had been the slightest disposition on the part of the various unions to object to these new-clauses, which are indeed vital to the well being of the Bill. Without them I do feel that the Bill would be a much worse Bill.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: These Amendments have been on the Paper for some days and therefore I should have thought that the unions would have seen them, or perhaps that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, would have pointed them out and asked whether the unions would agree to them.
LORD STRABOLGI: No, a number of them are new Amendments.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: The noble Earl—I cannot call him "in charge of the Bill," but running in double harness
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with the noble Marquess—appeals to me not to move the new clause which stands in my name, and I give him the assurance that I will not move it, when we come to it. I have two reasons: first, because I think that his Amendment is better than mine, not generally speaking, but because he says that he deals with all holiday resorts, both inland and by the sea, and I only deal with seaside resorts, and I am sure that we want this Bill to deal with all holiday places, whether they are by the sea or inland. The second reason, which is even more important than that, is that, as I understand, Blackpool agrees with this Bill. I was a member of Parliament for Blackpool for fifteen years, and I am only too glad to be once more their servant.
LORD SNELL: I think I ought to say, in view of what has been said by the noble Marquess and by the noble Earl on the Front Bench, that we must preserve our freedom to intervene on the Report stage or on any other stage of this Bill as we think fit.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4:
Procedure with respect to the making and revocation of orders.
4.—(1) The local authority shall, before making any order under the foregoing provisions of this Act, give public notice in the prescribed manner of their intention to make the order, specifying in the notice a period (not being less than the prescribed period) within which objections may be made to the making of the proposed order, and, if after taking into consideration any objections they have received, the local authority are satisfied that it is expedient to make the order and that the occupiers of not less than two-thirds in number of the shops to be affected by the order approve the order, they may make the order.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1) after the first "objections," to insert "(which shall be in writing and signed by the person objecting thereto)."The noble Lord said: I think these objections should be in writing, because those who hold a contrary opinion could then see them and their fears that the decision of the local authority was not in accordance with them would be allayed.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 12, after (" objections ") insert (" (which shall be in writing and signed by the person objecting thereto) ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I am afraid that, so far as the promoters are concerned, we could not accept this Amendment, because as far as I know, in the first place it is contrary to common practice in all previous Bills of the same kind. In such Bills objections have not had to be made in writing. As your Lordships know, in 99 per cent. of cases they will be in writing, but you may get an occasion when a man will have a conversation with the town clerk and ask him whether he really thinks that some action might not be taken. It is a little hard then to pin him down to put everything he says on paper.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I cannot quote from memory any particular case, but I am sure that there is a multitude of Acts in which objections have to be made in writing. At the same time I do not wish to delay the Bill and I beg to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 17, after (" shops ") insert (" or classes of shops ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5:
Provision for Jewish traders.
5.—(1) Where any shop is occupied by persons of the Jewish religion or members of any other religious body regularly observing the Jewish Sabbath, then, notwithstanding anything in this or in any other Act, the shop may be kept open on Sunday until two o'clock on Sunday afternoon, so long as the shop continues to be occupied by persons of the Jewish religion or members of any such body as aforesaid and on condition that the following provisions are complied with (that is to say):—
LORD MARLEY LORD MARLEY moved, in subsection (1), to substitute "five o'clock" for "two o'clock." The noble Lord said: This is a small but rather important point. I was very disappointed, when I perused the new Clause 5 which is being moved by the noble Earl on the Front Bench, to find two o'clock on Sunday maintained there in spite of my appeal on Second Reading that there should be a modification from two o'clock to five
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o'clock. I should perhaps make it clear that I am speaking for myself alone so far as these Benches are concerned, but the matter seems to me one of elementary justice. The position is this: I hold no particular brief for people who have particular religious ideas, but I do believe in toleration. I believe one should be tolerant and try to give people a chance, if they do have peculiar religious beliefs, of exercising them, and if we leave two o'clock in this measure, it seems to me to be a rather undue hardship on orthodox Jewish believers, because they must, according to their faith, close their shops not only all of Saturday but from sunset on Friday. I am told—I have not worked it out—that the average time of sunset is somewhere about five o'clock, so that broadly speaking the orthodox Jewish trader has got to close from five o'clock on Friday and through the whole of Saturday, and in return for these many hours of lost trade he is only allowed under the Bill to keep open until two o'clock on Sunday.
There are two factors in this. One is that, according to the habits of the people, Sunday is a day when many people stay in bed, although I was glad to read that a great many members of your Lordships' House get up and go to church, or some of them do. A large number, however, do not follow that excellent example, but stay in bed. Consequently, if they wish to shop on Sunday they must get up early, which is very trying for them if the shops close at two o'clock. Therefore it would be an advantage to the consumers if the shops were open until a little later on Sunday. Secondly, it is the fact that the vast majority of the trade on any day is done in the later part of the day, rather than in the earlier. I refer particularly to the type of shop referred to here. It is calculated that eighty per cent. of the shopping is done in the later part of the day, and only twenty per cent. in the earlier part, so that very heavy loss is involved to those who have these orthodox beliefs if they have to close at two o'clock. For these reasons I want to move that five o'clock shall be substituted for two o'clock. Should the sense of justice which is inherent in the hearts of many members of your Lordships' House lead you to accept this Amendment and substitute five o'clock for two o'clock, that would involve that in

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the new clause which is going to be moved by the noble Earl opposite five o'clock should be substituted for two o'clock. This Amendment would be of no effect if you merely insert it in a clause which is going to be relegated to the scrap-heap.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 37, leave out (" two ") and insert (" five ").—(Lord Marley.)
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I apologise for speaking again, but I will not be very long. I do most whole-heartedly, and almost passionately, support this extension from two o'clock to five o'clock. It seems to me that it would be vindictive to penalise the Jewish trader because of his religious belief, and because he sticks to the religion of his fathers. Already he carries a heavy burden because, of his religious belief, and the least we can do is not to add to that burden, which we should do unless this Amendment were passed. I do beg your Lordships to support the Amendment which has been so clearly moved, and I trust that some of the noble Lords whom I see here, who are connected with the Jewish faith and religion, will give us their views, and that it will not be left only to Lord Marley and myself to voice our strong feelings in this matter.
LORD SWAYTHLING: I feel, as a Jew, that I have to express my gratitude to the noble Lords who have just spoken for taking up the cause of the Jewish traders who are so much affected by this Bill. Lord Marley has told your Lordships that the average time of sunset, at which orthodox Jews have to close their shops on Friday, is five o'clock. In winter time sunset is as early as half-past three, and having regard to the hours which the Jewish trader loses it does not seem to me, or to those who have considered this question, that being allowed to keep open until two o'clock is a sufficient recompense. The orthodox Jewish trader also closes on thirteen days in the year, on Jewish holidays; therefore he has still more lost trading time to make up, and at present he can only trade till eight o'clock. Those Jewish representatives who have been in consultation with the promoters of the Bill have given their reasons for saying that the hours on Sunday should be extended to five o'clock, but the promoters of the Bill have not, as yet, given them any reason for not
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accepting five o'clock. They have been merely met with a blank refusal on the part of the promoters. I would finally like to say to jour Lordships that the Jewish trader, if this Bill is passed and he is compelled to close on Sundays at two o'clock, will have only two alternatives. The small trader will either have to go out of business or he will have to break his Jewish Sabbath and trade on the Sabbath and close on the Sunday. The promoters of the Bill are anxious to protect the Christian Sunday, but they will not let the Jewish trader have his Sabbath protected in the same way.
THE MARQUESS OK DUFFERIN AND AVA: I feel I must say a few words to explain why the promoters of the Bill do not feel that it is possible to extend the hours of Jewish trading on Sunday from two o'clock. Lord Marley, Lord Mount Temple and Lord Swaythling have made a very passionate plea for the Jewish trader. Of course, as Lord Marley hinted, he knows he is the only just man in his Party, or practically so, so far as this clause is concerned. I think any one who heard my speech on the Second Reading will acquit me of any desire to discriminate against Jews as such. I was very careful to say that I wished to retain the tolerance that we have always had in these matters. No clause in the Bill has given me more cause for heart-searching than this clause and the proposed Amendment, but I have been finally forced into the belief that it is necessary to reject the Amendment, for two reasons.
The first is that a great deal has been made of the hardship which the orthodox Jew will suffer under the clause as it at present stands. It is true that the orthodox Jew will only be allowed to trade until two o'clock on Sunday, but during that time he will have a monopoly. That is a tremendous advantage. In many districts he will be the only trader with a shop open in that district. I think that that is a fair recompense for many of the hours that he may lose under the Bill. The second reason that has forced me to this conclusion is a delicate one, and I do not like at all having to say it in this House, but it must be said. The Jew who does not live within a Jewish community would, under this proposed Amendment, be able to be open all Sunday till five o'clock. I suggest to your Lordships that in the present

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state of feeling in London that would be very unwise. I am very sorry to have to say that, but I do think we must all admit—those of us who know boys' clubs in the East End of London and from many other sources of information—that there is a feeling against Jews at the present moment, which we must stop if we possibly can, and I believe that if this Amendment were passed you would accentuate it greatly. I believe that if you passed this Amendment you would really have great feeling against the Jews. From the Jewish point of view itself, I believe most firmly that this Amendment ought to be rejected.
Finally, I would like to say that if this Amendment is passed you will have to have a consequential Amendment in Clause 6. There are only 5,000 orthodox Jews now trading all over England. Those 5,000, or the number of them who live in London, will have the power of extending the market hours in London under Clause 6 till five o'clock in the evening. It is all very well for the noble Lord, Lord Marley, to make the very justifiable debating point that it is at the end of the day that most trading is done, but no one knows better than he that what it really means is that it is in the last hour before closing that the trading is done; and if your Lordships will take the trouble to go down to the markets in London you will find, I am informed, that in practice to-day they close between one and two o'clock, when you get a great efflux of people away from them, having done their business. And, in fact, the scavengers in the London markets actually begin their work about half-past one. It does seem to me that if you pass this Amendment you are simply laying yourselves open to the charge of having quite unnecessarily kept their markets open for an extra three hours till five o'clock, keeping the scavengers up till half-past six. I urge your Lordships on these three considerations not to let your sense of compassion run away with you.
And I will say this also, that time is pressing already in this Session. This Amendment, or an Amendment very like it, was so decisively opposed by the House of Commons that I do not think that it was even moved, and I do not think that there is the slightest chance of getting it through another place without
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the bitterest struggle, which in practice would mean the end of the Bill, which even the mover of the Amendment thinks, at any rate in principle, is a good one.
LORD MARLEY: I am very disappointed with the reply of the noble Marquess, because I really do not think he has made his points at all well. If, in fact, the maximum trade is in the last hour, and we are only working up till five o'clock, then in point of fact the amount of trade actually done in the extra time will not be sufficient to cause resentment at the shops' being open till five o'clock. If, in fact, the trade is done, say, from seven to eight at night—
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I am talking of people seeing the Jewish shops open all day on Sunday. That is what will cause resentment.
LORD MARLEY: Yes, but we must have a reason for resentment. Surely, you cannot pile one injustice on another because the Jewish people are suffering the unjust attacks of Fascist organisations in this country. Let us be clear about this. Either there is or there is not an economic cause for this unjust attack on the Jewish people. If there is an economic cause, we are not making the economic cause worse by keeping the shops open now till five o'clock, when the maximum trade is done between seven and eight at night. Therefore, there is no economic cause for this. Therefore, we are merely denying common justice to the orthodox Jewish traders because there have been allowed to develop in this country Fascist attacks on the Jewish people, from which they have not been adequately protected. Either they have been protected or they have not. If they have been protected, and if they will be protected, the point made by the noble Marquess is an unreal one; and if they have not been protected they ought to have been protected, and I hope they will be in the future.
With regard to the question of time pressing I do not think there is much in that, for this reason, that already there are so many Amendments to this Bill that it has got to have a considerable discussion in another place when it goes back there, and one small addition is hardly likely to endanger the Bill more

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than the already existing Amendments. I am sorry that the noble Marquess has not seen fit to accept an Amendment that I really think is a just one, and I am going to ask the House to divide on it.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: May I add a word on behalf of the Government on this point? I think that on Second Beading I did point out to your Lordships that the Bill as originally introduced provided that the Jewish shops should be closed at one o'clock on Sunday. After that an Amendment was moved which made the time two o'clock. My recollection is that a further Amendment was discussed to extend that time to six in the evening, and finally it was negatived by a very large majority. I am not sure whether it would be advisable for your Lordships to disagree with another place on that particular Amendment, because I am advised that the opinion against increasing these hours was very considerable. I think it necessary to say that, but at the same time I am not prepared to enter into any discussion as to whether the Jews are protected or not protected, for that appears to me to be quite outside the scope of the Bill.
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out Clause 5 and insert:
Special provisions for persons observing the Jewish Sabbath.
" .—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the occupier of any shop who
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: May I put this to your Lordships? The noble Earl has just said that whether the Jews are popular or unpopular that is outside the scope of the Bill.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I never said anything about popular or unpopular, if my noble friend will forgive me.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: The point was whether they wore protected or not.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I accept the correction. But I cannot think that your Lordships would refrain from voting for an Amendment if you thought it just, simply because the people who are going to be helped by it are said to be unpopular at the present moment—because that was the argument of the noble Marquess. He said that if we give them extended facilities to trade till five o'clock there may be racial bad feeling. If it is right we ought to do it, and if it is wrong we ought not to be influenced by such an argument.
On Question, Whether the word "two" shall stand part of the clause?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 38; Not-Contents, 12.

CONTENTS.

Hailsham, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Midleton, E.

Lamington, L.

Munster, E.

Moyne, L.

Halifax, V. (L. Privy Seal.)

Plymouth, E.

Noel-Buxton, L.

O'Hagan, L.

Argyll, D.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Phillimore, L.

Elibank, V.

Rankeillour, L.

Aberdeen and Temair, M. [Teller.]

Hambleden, V.

Ritchie of Dundee, L.

Saltersford, L. (E. Courtown.)

Dufferin and Ava, M. [Teller.]

Addington, L.

Annaly, L.

Saltoun, L.

Zetland, M.

Dickinson, L.

Seaton, L.

Doverdale, L.

Shute, L. (V. Barrington.)

Leven and Melville, E.

Elphinstone, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Lindsay, E.

Elton, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Lucan, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Mar and Kellie, E.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Templemore, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Reading, M.

Mersey, V.

Lawrence, L.

Clwyd, L.

Marley, L. [Teller.]

Onslow, E.

Gainford, L.

Mount Temple, L. [Teller.]

Strafford, E.

Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)

Stanmore, L.

Swaythling, L.

is a person of the Jewish religion shall be entitled, upon making to the local authority an application in accordance with the provisions of this section, to have the shop registered under this section by the local authority, and so long as the shop is so registered then—

(a) the shop shall be closed for all purposes connected with trade or business on Saturday; and

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(b) the provisions of this Act requiring the shop to be closed for the serving of customers on Sunday shall not apply until two o'clock in the afternoon; and

(c) there shall be kept conspiciously placed in the shop a notice stating that it will be closed on Saturday and, if the shop will be open for the serving of customers on Sunday after two o'clock in the afternoon for the purposes of any transaction for which it is permitted under this Act to be so open, specifying the hours during which and the purposes for which it will be so open.

(2) Any application for the registration of a shop under this section shall be in the prescribed form and shall be accompanied—

(a) by a statutory declaration made by the occupier of the shop specifying the name of the religious body of which he is a member, and declaring that he conscientiously objects on religious grounds to carrying on trade or business on the Jewish Sabbath; and

(b) by such further statutory or other declarations and certificates, if any, made by such persons, and in such form, as may be prescribed.

(3) For the purposes of this section, a shop occupied by a partnership or company shall be deemed to be occupied by a person of the Jewish religion if not less than half the number of partners or of the directors, as the case may be, are persons of that religion, but not otherwise; and such a shop shall not be registered under this section unless the statutory declaration required by paragraph (a) of the last foregoing subsection is made by at least half the number of partners or directors and specifies the names and addresses of all the other partners or directors.
(4) If for the purpose of procuring the registration of any shop under this section any person knowingly or recklessly makes an untrue statement or untrue representation he shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, or to both such imprisonment and fine.
(5) So long as a shop is registered under this section—

(a) no other shop occupied by the same occupier shall be kept open for any purpose connected with trade or business on Saturday;

(b) no person by whom the statutory-declaration aforesaid has been made in connection with the application for the registration of the shop shall be employed or engaged on the Jewish Sabbath about the business of any shop or shall so employ, or be directly concerned in the control or management of any partnership or company which so employs, any person.

(6) Where any person is convicted of an offence under this section the court may, in addition to any other penalty, order the registration of any shops occupied by him
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or by any partnership or company in the control or management of which he is directly concerned to be revoked:
Provided that the court shall not order the registration of any shop not occupied by the person convicted to be revoked except after affording an opportunity to the occupier to appear and be heard.
(7) If upon representations made to them it appears to the local authority that there is reason to believe—

(a) that the occupier of any shop registered under this section is not a person of the Jewish religion;

(b) that a conscientious objection on religious grounds to carrying on business on the Jewish Sabbath is not genuinely held by the occupier of the shop, or in the case of a shop occupied by a partnership or company by at least one-half of the number of partners or of the directors, as the case may be;

the local authority may furnish particulars of the case to such tribunal as may, after consultation with the London Committee of Deputies of the British Jews, be prescribed, and if that tribunal, after considering the case in accordance with such rules as may be prescribed report to the local authority that in their opinion the occupier of the shop is not a person of the Jewish religion or that such a conscientious objection is not so held as aforesaid, the local authority shall revoke the registration of the shop, and upon the revocation thereof the registration under this section of all other shops occupied by the same occupier, whether in the area of that local authority or elsewhere, shall be deemed to be also revoked.
(8) In the event of any change in the occupation of a shop registered under this section it shall be the duty of the person who becomes the occupier to serve on the local authority notice of the change, and in the event of any change in any partnership or among the directors of any company by which such a shop is occupied, it shall be the duty of the partnership, or of the company, as the case may be, to serve on the local authority a notice giving particulars of the change, and, whether or not such a notice is served, the registration of the shop shall, upon the expiration of a period of fourteen days from the date on which the change occurred, be deemed to be cancelled, unless within that period, or within such further time as may be allowed by the local authority, a fresh application under this section is made in respect of the shop:
Provided that, where such a fresh application is made by reason of a change in any partnership or among the directors of any company by which the shop is occupied, the local authority may dispense with the statutory or other declaration or certificates required by paragraph (a) of subsection (2) and by subsection (3) of this section in the case of any person who has made such a declaration in connection with a former application in respect of the shop.
(9) The registration of any shop under this section shall be cancelled upon application in that behalf being made to the local authority by the occupier of the shop but shall not be so cancelled during the period of twelve months from the date on which an application for registration of the shop was last made.
(10) Where an application is made to a local authority in accordance with the pro visions of this section for the registration of a shop under this section—

(a) the local authority shall refuse to register the shop if the registration of that shop has been revoked or has been cancelled under the last foregoing subsection while the shop was in the occupation of the applicant; and

(b) the local authority may refuse so to register the shop if the registration of that shop or of any other shop occupied or formerly occupied by the applicant, or by any partnership or company of which he was a partner or director, has been revoked or cancelled.

(11) Where the local authority refuse to register a shop in accordance with the pro visions of paragraph (b) of the foregoing subsection, they shall serve notice of their refusal upon the applicant, and, if the applicant is aggrieved by such refusal, he may, within twenty-one days of the date when the notice was so served upon him, appeal against such refusal to a court of summary jurisdiction for the petty sessional division in which the shop is situated, and the appellant or the local authority, if aggrieved by the order made by the court of summary jurisdiction, may appeal against that order to quarter sessions.
(12) This section shall apply to persons who are members of any religious body regularly observing the Jewish Sabbath as it applies to persons of the Jewish religion, and references therein to persons of the Jewish religion shall be construed accordingly as including any person who is a member of such a body, and in the application of this section to such persons this section shall have effect as if for the reference therein to the London Committee of Deputies of the British Jews there were substituted a reference to such body as appears to the Secretary of State to represent such persons.
(13) As respects any shop which is for the time being registered under this section the Shops Acts, 1912 to 1934, shall have effect subject to the following modifications (that is to say)—

(a) subsection (1) of Section one and subsection (1) of Section four of the Shops Act, 1912, shall have effect as if for references therein to week-days there were substituted references to week-days other than Saturdays; and

(b) subsection (2) of the said Section four shall have effect as if the word ' Friday ' were substituted for the word ' Saturday ' wherever the last-mentioned word occurs."

The noble Earl said: This clause takes the place of the existing Clause 5, and it contains the special provisions for persons observing the Jewish faith. As I said before the House resolved itself into Committee, I thought it would be for the convenience of your Lordships that I should put a new clause in the Bill rather than propose a large number of Amendments to the existing clause. It will be seen that the general effect of the Amendments which I have proposed to this clause is to clarify its provisions, improve its machinery, and ensure that the privilege of Sunday opening is limited to those people for whom the clause was intended—namely, orthodox Jews. I should like to make it quite clear, before explaining the provisions of the new clause, that the main purpose of the clause as passed by another place remains undisturbed. A person who observes the Jewish Sabbath will be permitted to remain open until two o'clock on Sunday afternoon, provided he keeps his shop closed for all purposes during the whole of Saturday and provided, furthermore, that he complies with the restrictions contained in this clause.
Perhaps I may briefly explain the principal parts of this new clause and answer ultimately any questions which your Lordships may be prepared to ask. The main difference between the new clause and the existing clause is with regard to subsection (1), which has been amended to provide for a system of registration by the local authority of shops which keep open under the clause. This is thought to be a more convenient and more effective method than the mere receipt of notices as provided by the existing clause. Subsection (7) of the new clause contains an entirely new provision which I think requires some explanation. Under this subsection power is given to the local authority, if they have reason to believe that a person opening on Sunday under the clause has not a genuine conscientious objection to carrying on business on the Jewish Sabbath, to refer the case to a tribunal which is to be set up after consultation with the Jewish Board of Deputies. If that tribunal finds that the shopkeeper concerned does not genuinely hold a conscientious objection, the local authority have to revoke the registration of the shop, which will thereafter have to close on Sunday. The object of this

439
provision is to deal with cases of evasion which do not amount to actual breaches of the clause.
I shall quote your Lordships an example. It has been found under the Hairdressers' Act, 1930, which contains an exemption for Jewish hairdressers, that certain Jewish hairdressers with two shops have kept one open on Sunday and the other on Saturday by means of handing over one of the shops to a person who appears to be a separate occupier but is, in fact, purely a nominee, usually a relative of the original owner. It was considered impossible so to frame the clause as to cover specifically evasions of this character. Accordingly the assistance of the Jewish Board of Deputies has been elicited. They were naturally anxious that the privileges accorded by this clause should be granted only to the orthodox Jews for whom they were intended. I do not know whether there is any other particular point which I can draw the Committee's attention to in this new clause, but it docs appear to the Government as it now stands to provide a workable machinery and to contain the necessary safeguards against evasions. I hope your Lordships will agree to the clause and pass it in place of the existing clause of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 5 and insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Munster.)
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: To this new clause your Lordships will see that the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, has certain Amendments which are put down on page 9. I think the procedure is that these Amendments should be discussed first and put, and then the clause, as amended or not amended, should be put afterwards.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: May I ask the Lord Chairman on a point of order whether it would not be better to get rid of the existing clause first and then move the new clause?
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: The Standing Orders of your Lordships' House say that:
"If Amendments are moved to a proposed Amendment, such Amendments are dealt with in the order in which they stand in the Paper, in the same manner as if they were original questions, until all are disposed of; then the original Amendment is dealt with."
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (3) of the proposed new clause, to leave out "not less than half the number" and insert "the majority." The noble Viscount said: If your Lordships will look at page 5 of the Amendments, you will see that it reads:
"For the purposes of this section, a shop occupied by a partnership or company shall be deemed to be occupied by a person of the Jewish religion if not less than half the number of partners or of the directors, as the case may be, are persons of that religion, but not otherwise."
In effect, that is that if half the number of directors are of the Jewish persuasion they can, notwithstanding the religious scruples of the other half, come under this clause. This country is not Palestine. I think it is rather a tall order that the half consisting of Jewish directors should have this power over the non-Jewish directors. For that reason I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
In line 3 of subsection (3) of the proposed new clause leave out (" not less than half the number ") and insert (" the majority ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I cannot agree altogether with everything that the noble Viscount has said in moving this Amendment, but on the whole I think I am prepared to accept it.
On Question, Amendment to the proposed new clause agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The next Amendment in my name is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
In line 8 of subsection 3 of the proposed new clause, leave out (" at least half the number ") and insert (" the majority ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment to the proposed new clause agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (5) of the proposed new clause, after "directly," to insert "or indirectly." The noble Viscount said: If your Lordships do not insert these words "or indirectly" after the word "directly" it will be extremely easy to drive not only a proverbial four-in-hand through the Bill but even the "Queen

441
Mary," because it would be very easy indeed for a person to trade in his own name and then have a company with dummy directors holding all the shares. We had this question of directly or indirectly discussed on the Electricity Bill, I think, when the noble Earl, Lord Peel, was good enough to put in an Amendment which did make the Bill watertight. I hope my noble friend Lord Dufferin will see his way to accept this Amendment, otherwise the clause will be futile.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
In line 11 of subsection (5) of the proposed new clause, after (" directly ") insert (" or indirectly ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I am sorry that I for one cannot sec my way to accept this Amendment. It appears to me that it makes the scope of the clause far too wide. "Indirectly" in this connection is a word of almost indefinite meaning. I would like to point out that under subsection (7) the Jews themselves have made a very considerable concession in so far as the setting up of this authoritative tribunal is concerned, to decide whether a man is in fact a genuine professing Jew or whether he is using the cloak of his religion to cover a very wrong method of dealing—that is to say, if he is really directly interested in some other business which is making money on Sunday. In those circumstances, and in view of the concession that the Jews themselves have made, I hope that your Lordships will reject this Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: It will be unnecessary for your Lordships to reject this Amendment because I do not mean to press it, but I hope that between now and Report stage I may be able to come to some terms with my noble friends and move an Amendment perhaps at that stage.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I do not move the next Amendment in my name as it is connected with the one which I have withdrawn, but I beg to move the last one in my name which is consequential.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
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In line 5 of paragraph (b) of subsection (7) of the proposed new clause, leave out (" at least one half ") and insert (" the majority ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether the proposed new clause, as amended, shall be agreed to?
LORD STRABOLGI: With regard to this voluminous clause I may say that since the last omnibus clause was moved so adequately by the noble Earl and his noble assistant—when I rose for my noble friend Lord Snell to ask the question whether the unions concerned had been consulted—I have repaired the broken liaison that seemed to exist perhaps on both sides of the House. After consultation with my honourable friend in another place Mr, Rhys Davies, who takes a special interest in the Shop Assistants' Union, and also after having had the privilege of a conversation with the Under-Secretary of State for Home Affairs in the presence of the same Mr. Rhys Davies, I understand that the unions have been consulted—not only the trade associations and the local authorities, and the Association of Health and Pleasure Resorts, but the actual workers' unions also have been consulted. I am very glad to hear it. That removes our doubts and we are very glad that the Bill has been knocked into shape by the Home Office.
LORD SWAYTHLING: I do not want to detain your Lordships long, but the noble Earl who moved this new clause mentioned the evasions that have been going on under the Hairdressers' Act. I should like to say that the Jewish community themselves deprecate to the full all the evasions that have taken place under that Act, and they have been in touch with the Home Office to try to prevent any such evasions or anything of the sort occurring under the present Bill.
On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6:
Special provisions for London.
6.—(1) If the common council of the City of London or the London County Council are satisfied that any part of their respective areas—
(b) is a district, being a district within the metropolitan boroughs of Bethnal Green, Shoreditch, or Stepney, in which it was customary before the said date for

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the majority of the shops in the district to be kept open on Sunday and that, having regard to the character and habits of the population in the district, the application of the provisions of this Act requiring shops to be closed on Sunday would cause undue hardship,
they may, by order made in accordance with the provisions of this section, authorise such shops or classes of shops as may be specified in the order, being shops other than bakers', confectioners', hairdressers' and barbers' shops, situated in the district or in such parts of the district as may be so specified to be open for the serving of customers on Sunday until two o'clock on Sunday afternoon subject to the conditions hereinafter mentioned.
(2) Any order made under this section authorising shops to be kept open for the serving of customers on Sunday shall fix a week-day upon which such shops must be closed (in this section referred to as "the closing day"), and may fix different days for different classes of shops, and the occupier of a shop who intends to keep open the shop on Sunday in pursuance of the order shall give notice in writing to the common council or to the London County Council, as the case may be, of his intention so to do and he shall not keep open the shop on Sunday unless such notice has been given and the shop has been closed on the closing day in the preceding week:
Provided that—
(b) where the closing day so fixed is a day other than Saturday the order shall provide for enabling Saturday to be substituted as the closing day as respects any shop.
(4) The common council or the London County Council shall….
Provided that the common council of the City of London or the London County Council shall not make an order applying to any district referred to in paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section unless they are satisfied that the occupiers of not less than two-thirds in number of the shops to be affected by the order approve the order.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The Amendment standing in my name to the beginning of the clause is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 37, leave out (" common council ") and insert (" Common Council ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (1), after "within," to insert "the City of London or". The noble Earl said: The object
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of this Amendment is to enable the Common Council of the City of London to make an order for a district in the City of London in which it is at present customary for shops to keep open on Sunday. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 1, after (" within ") insert (" the City of London or ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "other than bakers', confectioners', hairdressers', and barbers' shops." The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to enable a local authority to permit the Sunday opening up to two p.m. of non-Jewish as well as Jewish shops in certain districts in London where it is at present customary to hold Sunday street markets and in districts like Whitechapel where, as your Lordships know, there is a predominance of the Jewish element. During the passage of the Bill in another place, Amendments were inserted to exclude bakers', confectioners', hairdressers' and barbers' shops from the operation of the clause. The Amendments were moved on behalf of the shopkeepers and employees in the trades concerned who object to any proposal to open non-Jewish shops on Sunday. However, to exclude any classes of shops from the operation of the clause might prove a source of serious grievance to the occupiers concerned, if they found that their Jewish competitors were obtaining the monopoly of Sunday trading.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 12, leave out from ("shops") to the end of line 13.—(The Earl of Munster.)
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: I am advised by those who know that the traders concerned and also other traders have no fear whatever of competition. Not only that, but even if there is competition both employers and employees have worked so hard in the past in order that they may have Sunday free from trading that they are very anxious that the Amendment which was passed in another place with regard to bakers should be retained and that other traders—grocers, provision dealers, corn dealers and domestic store keepers—should be inserted in the clause. The traders concerned are unanimous in their

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desire to be dealt with in this way in Clause 6. When they specially ask not to be allowed to trade on Sundays it does seem rather a large order to tell them that they are not to have the protection for which they ask and for which they have been working for many years. As your Lordships know there are already special orders under the Shops Act with regard to hairdressers and others. I think it would be a mistake that these traders should not be allowed to have their existing free Sunday continued even though they are in special districts. Therefore I very much hope that the noble Earl will not persist in this Amendment and that the noble Marquess will be able to accept the Amendment in my name which is next on the paper.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I am afraid that I cannot see my way to accept the Amendment which the noble Marquess has on the paper. So far as I can make out it is an unnecessary Amendment. The noble Earl, Lord Munster, is to move an Amendment in which precisely the conditions that the noble Marquess desires for grocers and provision merchants will be given to the keepers of any class of shops where the local authority is satisfied that the majority desire it. I suggest therefore that it is quite unnecessary to make a special exception of these particular trades and that it is far better to have a comprehensive Amendment covering every eventuality.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR moved, in subsection (1) before "bakers…shops," to insert "grocers, provision dealers, corn dealers, domestic store keepers." The noble Marquess said: I think I must move this Amendment in order to say that the traders concerned are not satisfied with the Amendment which appears on the paper in the name of the noble Earl on the Front Bench. They do not think they have proper protection under that Amendment. I feel bound to move this Amendment because the correspondence which I have had during the last fortnight shows that those, concerned are very anxious about this matter. It seems very strange that traders who wish to keep closed on Sundays should be told—in so many words almost—that they are not to get protection in these special districts.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 12, after (" than ") insert (" grocers, provision dealers, corn dealers, domestic storekeepers ").—(The Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair.)
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I can only repeat what I said before that the point made by the noble Marquess is entirely covered by a subsequent Amendment. If there is this unanimous desire, as the noble Marquess says. I think it very remarkable that he is not prepared to put it to the test of the majority vote as the Amendment in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Munster proposes. Therefore I would urge him to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert:
" Provided that before making an order applying to any district referred to in paragraph (b) of this subsection the council shall take steps to ascertain the wishes of the occupiers of such shops as appear to them to be likely to be affected, and if they are satisfied that a majority of the occupiers of any class of such shops are opposed to the making of the order the council shall exclude that class of shops from the operation of the order."
The noble Earl said: This Amendment is consequential on the provisions to which your Lordships have just agreed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 17, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 25, leave out (" common council ") and insert (" Common Council of the City of London ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "on" ["on the closing day"] and insert "during the whole of." The noble Viscount said: This is really very little more than drafting. It is intended to make it clear that the shops must be closed during the whole of the day.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 29, leave out (" on ") and insert (" during the whole of ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: May we have some light and leading on these Amendments from whoever is in charge of the Bill?
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I thought that I had spoken far too much, and I feel sure the noble Earl will think that he also has spoken too much.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: Surely every member of the Committee is entitled to have the Amendments explained to him?
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I thought I had explained the Amendment to the noble Lord. If he reads the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow I am sure he will find that I have done so.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: What does the noble Viscount mean by saying that shops shall be closed the whole of the day? That is all he told us.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: What I said was that it would make it clearer that the shops had to be closed during the whole of the day, whereas the word "on" is a little ambiguous. It might mean only a part of the day.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 5, leave out (" common council ") and insert (" Common Council of the City of London ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: This is drafting, too.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 16, leave out (" common council ") and insert (" Common Council of the City of London ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 25, leave out (" common council ") and insert (" Common Council of the City of London ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This Amendment, to omit the proviso in subsection (4), is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, leave out lines 35 to 41.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 7:
Provisions as to delivery of goods.
7. It shall not be lawful to dispatch any goods from a shop, or to deliver any goods so dispatched, at any time when under the provisions of this Act a customer could not be served with those goods in that shop:
Provided that……
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out all words down to and including "dispatch" and insert "Goods sold retail to a customer shall not be delivered or despatched for delivery from a shop." The noble Earl said: This is really a drafting Amendment, but it makes it clear that the prohibition of delivery applies only to goods sold retail and does not affect wholesale deliveries. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 1, leave out from the beginning to (" at ") in line 2 and insert (" Goods sold retail to a customer shall not be delivered or dispatched for delivery from a shop ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD PHILLIMORE: May I inquire on that point whether it covers goods sold retail not from a shop but, say, from a stand by the roadside? It seems to me essential that you should be able to deliver from a roadside stand as soon as the purchase is made. And what exactly does the word "delivery" mean? Does taking something from a stand to a car which may be standing on the opposite side of, perhaps, an arterial road constitute delivery? Perhaps the noble Earl or the noble Marquess would look into these points between now and Report stage.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I must apologise; I did not expect to be asked that particular question, I must confess, and I should be very much obliged if I could be given a little notice. As a matter of fact, however, I think that the noble Lord would find that his point is not a substantial one; but, as he said, I will look into it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8:
Miscellaneous savings.
(4) Notwithstanding anything in this Act, any person carrying on the business of a hairdresser or barber may, at any time, for the purposes of that business attend any person—

(a) in any place, if that person is unable, by reason of bodily or mental infirmity, to go to the place where such business as aforesaid is carried on; or

(b) in any hotel or club, if that person is resident therein.

(5) This Act shall not apply to any shop, or to the carrying on of any trade or business, in any sea-going ship.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line l6 leave out from (" goods ") to (" to ") in line 19.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in subsection (4), after "carrying on," to insert "or employed in." The noble Earl said: This Amendment is to make it clear that the exemptions provided in subsection (4) for hairdressers and barbers, whereby they are permitted to attend certain persons on Sunday, apply to employees as well as to the master barbers.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 41, after (" on ") insert (" or employed in ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 8, leave out from (" any ") to (" sea-going ") in line 9.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 9:
Provisions respecting shop assistants.
(iii) to any person employed in connection with the sale or distribution of milk and other farm produce; or
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 12, leave out (" in ") and insert (" about the business of ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is also drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 15, after (" person ") insert (" so ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 19, leave out from (" holiday ") to (" and ") in line 23 and insert (" on a day other than that of his statutory half holiday, if any,").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 24, after the second (" employed ") insert (" about the business of a shop ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 27, after (" person ") insert ("so").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in proviso (iii) in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "employed" and insert "wholly or mainly as a milk roundsman." The noble Earl said: In the Report stage of this Bill in another place an Amendment was moved to exclude from the provisions relating to compensatory holidays any person employed in connection with the sale or distribution of milk or other farm produce. It was pointed out at that time that the Amendment was too wide in its terms, and that as it stood it would have exempted not only milk roundsmen, in whose interests the Amendment was tabled, but also persons employed in dairies, grocers' and greengrocers' shops. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 4, leave out from (" employed ") to (" or ") in line 6 and insert (" wholly or mainly as a milk roundsman ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 33, after (" this ") insert (" and the next following ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 36, leave out from ("employed") to ("notwithstanding") in line 37.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 39, leave out from the beginning to ("half-past") in line 42 and insert:
("(b) in relation to any person employed about the business of a shop the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say, 'whole holiday' means a day on which that person is not employed about the business of that shop; 'statutory half holiday' means a day on which under Section one of the Shops Act, 1912, he is not employed about the business of that shop after half-past one o'clock in the afternoon; 'half holiday' means a day on which he is either not employed before, or not employed after").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 10 [Notices]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 9, leave out (" in ") and insert (" about the business of ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Leave out lines 14 to 16.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, after Clause 10, to insert the following new clause:
Extension of provisions of this Act to retail trading elsewhere than in shops.
". Subject as hereinafter provided, the provisions of this Act shall extend to any
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place where any retail trade or business is carried on as if that place were a shop, and as if in relation to any such place the person by whom the retail trade or business is carried on were the occupier of a shop:
Provided that—

(a) the following provisions of this Act shall extend only to shops, that is to say, those provisions of Section six which relate to the approval by occupiers of shops of orders made under those sections, the provisions of paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of Section seven and the provisions of paragraph (a) of Section twelve;

(b) the provisions of Section eleven of this Act shall in relation to any place not being a shop apply only to persons wholly or mainly employed in connection with the retail trade or business carried on therein;

(c) the provisions of Section one of this Act shall, as applied by this section, have effect as if there were included in the First Schedule to this Act the sale by fishermen of freshly caught fish (including shell-fish), and the sale at a farm, smallholding, allotment or similar place, of fresh produce produced thereon."

The noble Earl said: The whole of this clause is mainly of a drafting nature, and I do not think it is really necessary for me to explain the position fully to your Lordships unless the explanation is particularly required. It deals with a variety of matters, and perhaps, when the noble Lord, Lord Phillimore, moves the new clause which he has following mine, I may then be able to answer some of the questions which may be put to me. As it stands now, the clause is principally drafting.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 10 insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Amendment is in exactly the same words as paragraph (c) of the noble Earl's, with a single exception: that I leave out the word "fresh" before the word "produce," and I do so for the following reason. The noble Earl is, I think, equally concerned with me to protect the interests of the smallholder, the allotment-holder and the Federation of Women's Institutes, which has particularly asked me to bring this point forward. I think the noble Earl sincerely desires to protect their interests. These people have no regular market except the market which passes their door—motorists, mainly on Saturdays and Sundays. Many of these people live at a great distance from any market town. Their business is so small that they cannot

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afford to hire delivery vans and get their stuff taken to town; their only chance to realise a profit on what they grow on their own premises is to sell it at the door. The words "fresh produce" would prevent these people selling, I am told, honey, jam, fresh butter, cooked and dressed poultry, and eggs, and it is particularly those items with which the Federation of Women's Institutes is concerned.
How the noble Earl or the noble Marquess is going to say whether honey is or is not "fresh produce" I am at a loss to understand. If the bees have just made the honey and it is snatched from them and offered to the passing motorist, I suppose it is "fresh produce"; on the other hand, if they made it a month ago, possibly it is not "fresh produce." I do not know; I know that a fresh egg is fresh for a good many days according to the terms commonly employed, so I suppose my clients can sell a technically "fresh" egg although it is not necessarily an egg that the noble Marquess might consider "fresh" if he had it on his breakfast-table. In fact it seems to me that the real clear division that we want is the division between what is produced on the smallholding and what is not produced on the smallholding. I do not ask for anything to be included in the exemption except what is actually produced on the smallholding, and I think, that being a very reasonable request, the noble Marquess should accept my Amendment.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
At end insert:
(". The provisions of Section one of this Act shall, as applied by this section, have effect as if there were included in the First Schedule to this Act the sale by fishermen of freshly caught fish (including shell-fish), and the sale at a farm, smallholding, allotment or similar place, of produce produced thereon.")—(Lord Phillimore.)
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: May I strongly support my noble friend in the Amendment standing in his name after the present one? He has told you all about the difficulties of honey; whether it is "fresh" or whether it is not; but I am looking further. If you leave in this word "fresh," probably there will be litigation; probably it will go right up to the House of Lords to decide whether honey is "fresh" within the meaning of this Bill or whether it is not. What harm can it do to allow a smallholder
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or a farmer to sell his produce? It seems to me ridiculous not to accept this Amendment.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I have listened with great interest to Lord Mount Temple and Lord Phillimore, and I am afraid they have not impressed me or the noble Marquess who sits behind me.
A NOBLE LORD: How do you know that?
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: Because he told me. Objection has been raised to an exemption of this character on the grounds that certain small holders with roadside stalls actually buy their goods from wholesalers, and, for example, Sell New Zealand eggs.
LORD PHILLIMORE: I beg the noble Earl's pardon for interrupting, but the words of the Amendment are: "produce produced thereon."
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: That does not necessarily mean to say that they are fresh.
LORD PHILLIMORE: He cannot sell New Zealand produce and say it was "produced thereon."
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I am advised that the way the Amendment is drafted would lead to considerable trouble, and there would be doubt constantly raised as to whether the goods sold were "produce produced thereon".
LORD ELTISLEY: I hope that if necessary this Amendment will be pressed to a Division. I regard it as the key-point of the Bill. Nothing could be more unsatisfactory than for this trade to be snatched from the small producer, whose main difficulty is to market the produce produced on his holding, and unless the promoters of the Bill are good enough to give this matter favourable consideration I think it is necessary that we should divide upon it.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: There is such difference of information on the point that it would be extremely difficult to decide whether a man was not being rather clever in buying a lot of stuff from a wholesaler, putting it in his cottage, dressing it up, and selling it as his own produce. That was the object of putting in the word

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"fresh." I think it is a matter, however, which might be gone into, and possibly on Report we could devise some little more satisfactory form of wording than that which the noble Lord has produced. I doubt very much whether the words "produce produced thereon" cover poultry and eggs.
LORD MOYNE: This leaves me rather confused. The noble Marquess is arguing in favour of putting in the word "fresh" as a security against fraud. I think it is a very doubtful security. If people set about defrauding the consumer they will surely be able to get fresh produce just as easily as New Zealand. I think the point is so small and petty, and so likely to cause litigation and trouble, that the promoters would do well to meet the Amendment.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I think the sense of the House is so clear that I ought to accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment to the proposed Amendment, agreed to.
On Question, proposed new clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 11 [Enforcement]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: The Amendments to this clause are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 19, leave out from ("shop") to ("shall") in line 20.
Page 11, line 37, leave out from ("against") to ("the") in line 38 and insert (" any of the following enactments, namely—

(a) the Act of the twenty-seventh year of His late Majesty King Henry the sixth, chapter Five (which restricts the holding of fairs and markets on certain days); or

(b) ")

Page 11, line 42, at end insert ("; or
(c) the Sunday Observance Act, 1677.")—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 12 [Extension of provisions of this Act to retail trading elsewhere than in shops]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out Clause 12. The noble Earl said: This is a consequential Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 12.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13 [Interpretation]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to insert "The expression 'horse' has the same meaning as in the Army Act, 1881." The noble Viscount said: I can hardly call this a consequential Amendment, but it precedes one which is on page 17 of the Amendment Paper to permit the sale of fodder and other supplies or accessories for horses for immediate use. As it is rather uncertain what a "horse" is in many Acts of Parliament I have had recourse to the Army Act of 1881, which gives the widest interpretation of that term. It is as follows:
" The expression 'horse' includes a mule, and the provisions of this Act shall apply to any beast of whatever description, used for burden or draught or for carrying persons in like manner as if such beast were included in the expression 'horse'."
I cannot see why if a horse is to be given fodder a mule or donkey should not equally have the advantage of it.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 28, at end insert ("The expression 'horse' has the same meaning as in the Army Act, 1881").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: As this matter is still under consideration I ask the noble Viscount to withdraw this Amendment now, and it shall be considered between now and Report stage.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I am always reasonable, and I will ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: The next Amendment in my name is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 28, at end insert:
(" (2) Any reference in this Act to any other enactment shall, unless the context otherwise requires, be construed as a reference to that enactment as amended by any subsequent enactment, including this Act ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14 [Repeals]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I am going to ask your Lordships to leave out this clause, as I am proposing to deal with the repeals which this clause represents in the Fourth Schedule.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 14.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15 [Short title, citation, application and commencement]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: This Amendment is also part of the same thing, and I am dealing with it in the Fourth Schedule.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 10, at end insert:
(" (4) The enactments mentioned in the Fourth Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that Schedule.")—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
First Schedule [Trades and Businesses Exempted from the Provisions of Section one]:
LORD RANKEILLOUR: I rise on a point of order. I am sorry to intrude again, but I submit that it is of not much use amending Schedules which presumably are going to be deleted from the Bill. Would it not be possible for the Amendments to be moved in the appropriate places in the Schedules which it is proposed to substitute?
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: May I point out that possibly there will be no appropriate place in the substituted Schedules? I could not move some of my Amendments in the proposed new Schedules at all.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I have considered this matter. Of course it would be possible to hand in manuscript Amendments to the proposed new Schedules. On the other hand, if the Amendments were discussed as a whole and it was the general sense of the House that certain Amendments were desirable, they could then, if the noble Marquess agrees, be dealt with on the Report stage or Third Reading. It would be rather difficult to take these Amendments and put them in the appropriate place in the proposed new Schedules.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I would certainly agree to what the noble Lord Chairman has said.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I have a number of Amendments to this First Schedule, but the first, which is to leave
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out from "shop" in line 14 on page 14 to the end of line 16, I propose to withdraw. The next, in line 17, which is after "chocolates" to insert "flour and," I do not move. The next, in line 19, to leave out "necessary," has been met, and I do not move. The next, in line 27, to leave out "fresh" in both places, and after "milk" to insert "milk products," I do not move. The fifth, in line 28, to leave out "fresh" in both places, has been met, and I do not move; and the last, in line 29, at end, to insert "bulbs and plants," I do not move.
LORD MOYNE LORD MOYNE had on the Paper an Amendment in the twelfth paragraph, to leave out "and souvenirs" and to insert "souvenirs and photographic films and plates." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is to enable the London Zoological Society and other like bodies to sell photographic films on Sundays, as they have long been allowed to do. But as it is covered by the noble Earl's Schedule, and as I presume that will be accepted, I do not move. I will, however, move, at the end of the Schedule, to insert, "The sale of fodder and other supplies or accessories for horses and required for immediate use."The object is to put horse transport on the same privileged footing under the Bill as motor transport. Motor transport is, it is true, driving horses off the road in many districts, but there are a good many people still who do drive horses, and it is very desirable that it should be made perfectly clear that they are to be allowed to buy the necessary forage on Sunday. This matter was raised in another place in a rather wider form than is now proposed. The promoters of the Bill said they sympathised with the object, and saw that it would be quite unjust to refuse some such provision. But it was pointed out in the debate that if the Amendment passed without any limitation, as was then proposed, it would open all the hay and corn chandlers' shops on Sundays. Therefore I now move it in a much narrower form, and limit it to forage required for immediate use. The Home Office did not oppose this Amendment in principle, but they said they did not feel sure that it was necessary, that it was probable that the occasional sale of fodder could not be described as carrying on a retail trade. But if there is any doubt about this surely it is wise to cover

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the point in the Bill, so that there need never be any litigation or friction in the future. I hope the promoter of the Bill will see his way to put down an Amendment himself, or to see that this point is covered on the next stage.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 7, at end insert ("The sale of fodder and other supplies or accessories for horses and required for immediate use.")—(Lord Moyne.)
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: It is perfectly obvious that something of this kind must be put into the Bill, particularly at a moment when riding on horseback is becoming much more common. At the same time, I am still a little worried by the phrasing of the Amendment. I am unaware of what Lord Munster is going to say about it, but it appears to me that it would still enable any corn chandler or any saddler to supply an accessory for a horse. I am also not perfectly certain whether the words "for immediate use" really restrict that sufficiently. Subject therefore, to anything that your Lordships may decide, I should like to devise a form of words of my own which would narrow the scope of the Amendment and at the same time achieve its object.
LORD MOYNE: I do not think there is very much danger of shops keeping open for the very small amount of trade that would be possible if the only legitimate form of sale was "for immediate use;" but as the noble, Marquess has undertaken to consider it and to cover the point, I am quite prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD PHILLIMORE: I should like to know from the noble Marquess if he considers that a betting slip is an accessory to a horse?
LORD SNELL: Is it the purpose of the noble Marquess to make some alteration for the Report stage?
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: That was my intention.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE LORD MOUNT TEMPLE moved, at the end of the Schedule, to insert "the sale of products of rural industries or homemade articles." The noble Lord said: This is a small Amendment, and I cannot see any sound reason why it should not be accepted. Its intention is to allow the sale of products of rural industries
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or home-made articles on a Sunday. We all know that, in motoring about the country, we meet tea-shops with pottery and basket work for sale. Rural industries sadly need encouragement, and these small people need encouragement. I cannot see why a wayfarer who has a cup of tea should not be able to buy a basket or piece of pottery if he so wishes.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 7, at end insert ("the sale of products of rural industries or homemade articles").—(Lord Mount Temple.)
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: This Amendment, it seems to me, reads a little more innocuously than it will actually work out. I should like, first of all, to take the last two words. The noble Lord made many jokes at my expense on the Second Reading about the ambiguity of the Bill. Let us take his own efforts in drafting. We find he has committed himself to "home-made articles." I am no lawyer, but I am advised that if this Amendment is accepted as it stands he would thereby enable anybody who brewed his own wine or beer to violate every licensing law; in the country. I cannot believe that that was seriously intended by the noble Lord. After all, "home-made articles" is a wide term. There is practically nothing that cannot be made in the home if you choose to define the home in the way that-suits you best. And it does seem very wrong that people should be allowed to sell in the streets of their village jumpers that they have knitted, when the shop whose proper trade it is to sell them is forbidden to do so by law. You could go on enumerating almost indefinitely the rural home industries that would spring up under the great stimulus that this Amendment would give. Therefore, though I sympathise in a way with the bona-fide home industry, I cannot possibly ask your Lordships to accept so very dangerous an Amendment.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: Do I understand that the noble Marquess definitely excludes any consideration of the sale of any home-made articles or the products of rural industries, or will he look into it between now and Report and see whether innocuous words can be substituted?
LORD PHILLIMORE: Before the noble Marquess answers that, I would like to ask whether he could not include some of the more strictly domestic products which

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are aimed at by Lord Mount Temple. If I may just give an instance, the noble Marquess has talked about knitted goods. I happen to know of a man in the distressed area of West Cumberland who makes a living by selling stockings, and perhaps jerseys, made on a home-made frame. That man has been out of work for years, but motorists in numbers pass through his village on the way to the Lakes and other touring districts. It does seem to me a bit hard that on Sunday, which is probably his day of harvest, he should not be able to sell what is so essential to his well being.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: I certainly sympathise entirely with the object of Lord Mount Temple and Lord Phillimore. I will certainly do the very best I can, but I cannot promise anything, because I have already given a great deal of consideration to this when I first saw this Amendment, and it is extremely difficult so to frame your Amendment as only to include the bona-fide home industries.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I entirely agree with the noble Marquess. I think he will do his best, but I think there is a case, if you can restrict it. I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE LORD MOUNT TEMPLE had on the Paper an Amendment, at the end of the Schedule, to insert: "The sale of books and stationery at such terminal or main line railway or omnibus stations or at such aerodromes as may from time to time be approved by the Secretary of State."The noble Lord said: This has been met by the Government Amendment and I do not move.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out the First Schedule and insert the following new Schedule:
(" FIRST SCHEDULE.
Transactions for the purposes of which a shop may be open for the serving of customers on Sunday.
1. The sale of—

(a) intoxicating liquors;

(b) meals or refreshments whether or not for consumption at the shop at which they are sold but not including the sale of fried fish and chips at a fried fish and chip shop;

(c) newly cooked provisions and cooked or partly cooked tripe;

(d) table waters, sweets, chocolates, sugar confectionery and ice-cream (including wafers and edible containers);

462

(e) flowers, fruit and vegetables (including mushrooms) other than tinned or bottled fruit or vegetables;

(f) milk and cream not including tinned or dried milk or cream, but including clotted cream whether sold in tins or otherwise;

(g) medicines and medical and surgical appliances by any person who has entered into a contract with an insurance committee under the National Health Insurance Acts, 1924 to 1935, for the supply of drugs and appliances;

(h) aircraft, motor or cycle supplies, or accessories for immediate use;

(i) tobacco and smokers' requisites;

(j) newspapers, periodicals and magazines;

(k) books and stationery from the bookstalls of such terminal and main line railway or omnibus stations, or at such aerodromes as may be approved by the Secretary of State;

(l) guide books, postcards, photographs, reproductions, photographic films and plates, and souvenirs at any gallery, museum, garden, park or ancient monument under the control of a public authority or university, and, if and to the extent that the local authority certify that such sale is desirable in the interests of the public, it any other gallery or museum, or at any place of natural beauty or historic interest, or at any zoological, botanical or horticultural gardens or at any aquarium;

(m) photographs for passports;

(n) requisites for any game or sport at any premises or place where that game or sport is played or carried on.

(2) The transaction of—

(a) Post Office business;

(b) The business carried on by a funeral undertaker.")

The noble Earl said: The points that I wish to make in connection with this Amendment are, first, that the new Schedule partially enlarges the exemptions and, secondly, that it revises the terms of the First Schedule with regard to greater provision. The noble Lord, Lord Mount Temple, has said that all his points have been met, and I believe that the wishes of other noble Lords have also been met, so with these few words I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out the First Schedule and insert the said new Schedule.—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD SNELL: I hope the noble Earl is able to assure us that this First Schedule is made out in accordance with the general principles of the Bill, and that it does not introduce any special new factors. If that is so, of course we should be glad to support its passing. I should

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like, in doing so, to express on my own behalf, and on behalf of my friends, a word of congratulation to the noble Marquess who has promoted this Bill, and to the noble Earl, for the great help they have been able to give to the Committee in this complicated measure.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Second Schedule:
SECOND SCHEDULE.
Trades and Businesses in respect of which a Partial Exemption Order may be made.
The sale of bread and flour confectionery, including rolls and fancy bread.
The sale of fish (including shell-fish).
The sale of groceries and other provisions commonly sold in grocers' shops.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out the Second Schedule and insert the following new Schedule:
SECOND SCHEDULE.
"Transactions in respect of which a partial exemption order may be made under Section two.
The sale of—

(a) bread and flour confectionery, including rolls and fancy bread;

(b) fish (including shell-fish);

(c) groceries and other provisions commonly sold in grocers shops;

in so far as such sales are not included amongst the transactions mentioned in the First Schedule to this Act."
The noble Earl said: This Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 8, leave out the Second Schedule and insert the said new Schedule.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to insert the following new Schedules:
THIRD SCHEDULE.
" Transactions in respect of which an order may be made under Section Four of this Act.
The sale of—

(a) any articles required for the purposes of bathing or fishing;

(b) photographic requisites;

(c) toys, souvenirs and fancy goods;

(d) books, stationery, photographs, reproductions and postcards;

(e) any article of food."

FOURTH SCHEDULE.
Enactments repealed.

Session and Chapter.

Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

3 Geo. 4 c. cvi.

An Act to repeal the Acts now in force relating to bread to be sold in the City of London and the liberties thereof, and within the weekly bills of mortality, and ten miles of the Royal Exchange, and to provide other regulations for the making and sale of bread, and preventing the adulteration of meal flour and bread within the limits aforesaid.

In section sixteen, the words from "or shall on any other part of the said day" to "of any sort or kind"; the words "or deliver"; "or delivered"; and the proviso.

6 & 7 Will. 4. c. 37.

The Bread Act, 1836.

In section fourteen, the words from "or shall on any other part of the said day" to "of any sort or kind"; the words "or deliver"; "or delivered"; the words from "provided nevertheless" to "in this Act contained."

20 & 21 Geo. 5. c. 35.

The Hairdressers and Barbers Shops (Sunday Closing) Act, 1930.

The whole Act."

The noble Earl said: This Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
After the Second Schedule insert the said new Schedules.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I have on the Paper a formidable number of Amendments. They are all drafting Amendments, with the exception of one which is practically drafting. It has been suggested by the Lord Chairman that it may be the desire of the House

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that the Amendments on the Paper down to and including Clause 147 be taken en bloc. All those Amendments are drafting or consequential, and I beg to move accordingly.
Amendments moved—
Clause 15, page 10, line 39, leave out ("they") and insert ("the local authority")
Clause 21, page 17, line 28, leave out ("into a sewer belonging to") and insert (", whether directly or indirectly, into the sewers or sewage disposal works of")
Clause 27, page 21, line 35, leave out ("drain or sewer") and insert ("sewer or drain")
Clause 27, page 22, line 3, leave out ("drain or sewer") and insert ("sewer or drain")
Clause 30, page 23, line 14, after ("affect") insert ("prejudicially")
Clause 55, page 41, line 13, leave out ("for") and insert ("with respect to")
line 14, leave out ("for")
Clause 61, page 47, line 30, leave out subsection (3)
Clause 64, page 50, line 2, leave out ("is") and insert ("has been")
Clause 71, page 55, line 8, leave out from ("to") to ("this") in line 11 and insert:
("(a) any buildings, being school premises, erected or to be erected according to plans which are under any regulations relating to the payment of grants required to be, and have been, approved by the Board of Education; or
(b) any buildings constructed by a county council or local authority in accordance with plans approved by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries under the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, 1908 to 1931, or any Act amending those Acts or any of them; or
(c) any buildings belonging to any statutory undertakers and held or used by them for the purposes of their undertaking:
Provided that the exemption conferred by paragraph (c) of")
Clause 72, page 56, line 7, leave out ("undertake") and insert ("have undertaken")
Clause 72, line 21, leave out ("do not undertake") and insert ("have not undertaken")
Clause 75, page 57, line 28, leave out ("undertake") and insert ("have undertaken")
Clause 111, page 81, line 26, leave out from ("distance") to end of line 28 and insert ("a sufficient supply of wholesome water for domestic purposes")
Clause 132, page 94, line 39, leave out subsection (4)
Clause 111, page 95, line 8, leave out subsection (5) and reinsert it on page 96 at the end of line 2.
Clause 111, page 96, line 9, at end insert ("and
(b) if they supply water outside their district, send at least one month before the application is made a copy of the by-laws to the local authority of every district in which any premises to which the by-laws will apply are situate.")
Clause 138, page 93, line 38, leave out ("is without") and insert ("has not, either in the house or within a reasonable distance thereof,")
Clause 147, page 107, line 21, leave out subsection (2)
page 108, line 6, at end insert ("Any such temporary order shall specify the period during which it is to continue in operation ").—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 158:
Persons ceasing to occupy house to disclose to owner any recent case of notifiable disease, and to disinfect.
(2) The local authority shall give notice of the provisions of this section to the occupier and also to the owner of any house in which they are aware that there is a person suffering from a notifiable disease.
THE EARL OF COURTOWN THE EARL OF COURTOWN moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "and also to the owner."The noble Earl said: My Lords, I shall not take up your time at any length. Those words did not appear in the Bill as originally drafted. They were put in at the request of the National Federation of Property Owners, but as there has not been time to consult them formally, if there is any objection raised I shall not press the Amendment but hope that the matter may come up for consideration again at some later stages.
Amendment moved—
Page 113, line 29, leave out ("and also to the owner").—(The Earl of Courtown.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, on behalf of the National Federation of Property Owners I object to this Amendment.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, it remains for me to say very little. In the circumstances I think the course suggested by my noble friend is the best one—namely, that this Amendment should not be made at this stage.
THE EARL OF COURTOWN: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg to move that the next three Amendments standing in my name be agreed to. They are all drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Clause 189, page 131, line 21, leave out ("this Part of this Act") and insert ("the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to nursing homes").
Clause 231, page 153, line 5, leave out ("apparatus") and insert ("appliances").
Clause 263, page 166, line 11, leave out ("the preceding subsection") and insert ("this section").—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 269:
Power of local authority to control use of moveable dwellings.
(5) Nothing in this section applies—
(ii) to a moveable dwelling (belonging to a person who is the proprietor of a travelling circus, roundabout, amusement fair or store (not being a pedlar, hawker, or costermonger) while it is being used by him in the course of travelling for the purpose of his business; or
(6) If an organisation satisfies the Minister that it takes reasonable steps for securing—

(a) that camping sites belonging to or provided by it, or used by its members, are properly managed and kept in good sanitary condition; and

(b) that moveable dwellings used toy its members are so used as not to give rise to any nuisance,

the Minister may grant to that organisation a certificate of exemption.
In this subsection the expression "member" in relation to an organisation includes a member of any branch or unit of the organisation.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in paragraph (ii) of subsection (5), after "fair," to insert "stall." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I suggest to my noble friend Lord Gage that the word "stall" should be inserted in this clause because it is a well-known term in the show world. "Stallholder" includes those responsible for all the smaller games and that sort of thing other than roundabouts, circuses, and switchbacks. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 172, line 18, after ("fair") insert ("stall.")—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, we agree to accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in paragraph (ii) of subsection (5), to leave out "while" and insert "provided that". The noble Viscount said: "My Lords, showmen use their caravans as homes, and in the nature of their business they have to travel about continually from fair to fair all the year round. Other caravan users use them for week-ends, holidays, and such like, whereas the showman uses his caravan the whole year round for his business. These showmen have used their caravans in this way for a very long time, and they feel they are entitled to some consideration. When the original Bill was issued, Clause 267, now Clause 268, related to tents, vans, sheds, etc. This clause was carefully considered, but nothing in it appeared to injure their calling. The Guild of Showmen, however, was much surprised to find that the Bill, as amended by the Joint Committee, contained a lengthy new clause, Clause 269—some five pages of print—relating to moveable dwellings, but still under the heading of tents, vans, sheds, etc., and it feels that the claims of its members who must use their caravans have been overlooked. The Guild of Showmen does not wish to take steps to hold up the Bill when it is returned to the House of Commons for consideration, and it has therefore endeavoured to keep its Amendments to the minimum it is entitled to ask for.
I hope that my noble friend will see his way to accept this Amendment. In all Private Bills which contain clauses relating to tents and sheds, the following exemption is inserted:
"Any person dwelling in a tent or van or other similar structure such as a roundabout proprietor, travelling showman or stallholder, not being a pedlar or hawker…."
This exemption, with slight alterations, has been in use for upwards of twenty-five years, and I think it is reasonable that this Amendment should be accepted.
Amendment moved—
Page 172, line 20, leave out ("while") and insert ("provided that").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, this is an Amendment of somewhat greater substance. It raises, it seems to me, two questions. Firstly, is the object in view a good one; and secondly,

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do the words of the Amendment carry out their objective? On the first point I think your Lordships will agree that we ought not to interfere unreasonably with the legitimate carrying on of this very old-fashioned business of a travelling showman. It might be argued that by petty regulation of the camping sites of the showmen, some such effect might be produced. That is why we have introduced into this Bill the clause which the noble Lord wishes to amend. Perhaps I had better read it to your Lordships: it will be found on page 172. The exemption applies:
"to a moveable dwelling belonging to a person who is the proprietor of a travelling circus, roundabout, amusement fair or store (not being a pedlar, hawker or costermonger) while it, is being used by him in the course of travelling for the purpose of his business."
We think that those words do cover the case of a showman who is actively engaged in his business, but if the showman closes down his business, say, for the winter, which I believe is quite a common practice among some of them, then we do not see any particular reason why that showman should not be subjected to regulations in respect of perfectly legitimate sanitary requirements, for in that case he is using his van as a residence.
After all, every residence in this country is subject to some form of sanitary regulation. There have been some rather glaring cases of the necessity for these regulations. The words which my noble friend proposes to insert here, may, we feel, have the effect of permanently exempting these vans from the control of these licensing requirements. I am not a lawyer, but we are not at all sure what would be the legal effect of the meaning of the word "regularly", the insertion of which, after "used", is suggested by the noble Viscount in another Amendment. Is a van which is travelling in the summer months but laid up in the winter used regularly for travelling? It is a difficult question, but if the answer is "Yes" then such a van would be entirely exempted. To sum up, the whole of the clause as drafted is to avoid imposing hampering restrictions on the carrying on of the showman's business. He has no good ground for exemption apart from this, and if he lives in the van he should be subject to the same restrictions as other persons. Therefore I regret I must
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resist this Amendment and I hope, for the reasons I have given, my noble friend will withdraw it.
THE EARL OF ON SLOW: My Lords, I have not the papers here which were handed to the Committee dealing with this clause. I have not had time to get them because, as your Lordships are aware, I was recently occupied in the Chair when your Lordships' House was in Committee. I therefore was unable to go out and get the papers, but my recollection is that this is the usual form of words and that it comes from Private Acts. My noble friend below me (Viscount Gage) will correct me if I am wrong. It is, I believe, the usual form inserted in Private Acts. As your Lordships will see and as my noble friend pointed out, the subsection says that nothing in this section applies to a moveable dwelling belonging to a travelling circus. I should have thought that that ought to have satisfied my noble friend Lord Bertie, because it seems to me to do what he requires, if I understood him rightly. I think if we were to alter it in the manner my noble friend has suggested we should perhaps be going rather farther in altering the law as it exists in Private Acts or in Public Acts than we intended to, or that the Joint Committee set out to do.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I do not propose to press this Amendment now, but I do hope my noble friend Lord Gage will allow me to see him between now and Third Reading to discover if he cannot do something, because I really think there is a case.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SOMERS LORD SOMERS moved, before "the organisation" at the end of subsection (6), to insert "or formed by". The noble Lord said: This really is only a drafting Amendment. I desire the words which I propose in my Amendment to be inserted in order to cover all members of the Boy Scouts and Guides associations and the Salvation Army. The words "or formed by" would cover all units that are not already covered in the wording of the Bill. I hope the Government will see their way to accept this small Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 173, line 8, after ("of") insert ("or formed by").—(Lord Somers.)
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, we accept this Amendment. It is, as the noble

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Lord has pointed out, more or less a drafting Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, the Amendments down in my name to this clause are drafting. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 173, line 24, leave out ("urban") and insert ("local").
Page 173, line 33, leave out ("as aforesaid") and insert ("as is mentioned in subsection (2) or subsection (3) of this section").—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, the Amendments down in my name to Clauses 287, 290 and 291 are drafting. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Clause 287, page 183, line 27, leave out from ("provisions") to end of section and insert ("of Parts IX and X of this Act with respect to entry into or upon, and inspection of, common lodging-houses and canal boats.")
Clause 290, page 185, line 10, leave out ("any") and insert ("the")
Clause 291, page 186, line 14, leave out ("subject as aforesaid.")—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 313 [Orders for amendment or adaptation of local Acts, etc.]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to insert the following new subsection:
"(3) Any order made under this section shall be laid before each House of Parliament for a period of thirty days during the Session of Parliament, and, if before the expiration of that period either House resolves that the order be annulled, it shall be void, but without prejudice to the making of a new order:
Provided that in reckoning any such period of thirty days as aforesaid no account shall be taken of any time during which both Houses are adjourned for more than four days."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is the same Amendment as that which I moved yesterday to the Bill of which the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, was in charge. It brings this Bill into line with that Bill, and I unashamedly confess that it is the result of secret negotiations with the Department. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 194, line 33, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, as the noble Viscount has already informed your Lordships, the negotiations have ended in
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the Government's acceptance of this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, the whole of the remaining Amendments on the Paper are drafting. If there is any explanation required I shall be very pleased to try to give it, but I think it will be convenient to your Lordships that the Amendments be taken en bloc. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Clause 315, page 195, line 28, after ("and") insert (", if the committee represent two or more councils or authorities, may")
Clause 315, page 195, line 30, at end insert ("councils and")
Clause 332, page 203, line 33, at end insert ("under either of the two last preceding sections")
Clause 332, page 203, line 36, leave out ("under the last but one preceding section")
Clause 332, page 204, line 3, leave out ("mentioned in the last preceding section")
Clause 343, page 210, line 33, after ("yards") insert ("appurtenant to buildings,")
Clause 346, page 216, line 30, at end insert:
(" (2) If any enactments or words mentioned in the Third Schedule to this Act are, wholly or partly, re-enacted in a Consolidation Act of the present Session of Parliament, the references in the said Schedule to those enactments or words shall be construed as including references to such enactments or words in the Consolidation Act as His Majesty in Council may declare to be corresponding enactments or words, and accordingly any enactments and words to which such declaration extends shall also be repealed by this section.")
Third Schedule, page 221, line 26, after ("eight") insert ("three hundred and nine")
Third Schedule, page 223, line 11, at end insert
("3 & 4 Vict. c. 85.—The Chimney Sweepers and Chimneys Regulation Act, 1840.—Section six.")
Third Schedule, page 226, in the third column in line 31, leave out ("and subsection (1) of Section nine")
Third Schedule, page 226, in the third column leave out lines 26 to 28 and insert ("In subsection (4) of Section twenty-four the words ' new buildings and,' and")
Third Schedule, page 226, in the third column leave out lines 40 to 43 and insert ("In Section one hundred and one the words ' or buildings ' ")
Third Schedule, page 228, in the first column in line 26, leave out (" 55 & 56 ") and insert ("54 & 55 ").—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.

PUBLIC HEALTH (DRAINAGE OF TRADE PREMISES) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the day for the Third Reading read.
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I think it right to say a few words in moving the Third Reading of this Bill. First I want to thank your Lordships for the way in which you have allowed this Bill a quick passage. This Bill carries out the recommendations of several Commissions and great efforts have been made by local authorities, traders and all those interested in water, whether as users of water or as fishermen, to secure the passage of the principle of this Bill. That principle is a simple one. It is that trade effluents containing polluted matter shall be placed in the sewers instead of into open rivers. The Press has ignored this Bill up to the present time, but it is one of the most important measures which I hope will be passed through both Houses of Parliament this Session. Not only is the purity of the water supply absolutely necessary for the community in general, but it is necessary for trade purposes and for a great number of other reasons with which I need not trouble your Lordships to-night.
The reason I want to say a few words at this stage is that this is a Private Bill promoted by a great number of organisations and associations who have met together and who have not only approved the principle of the Bill but have seen to it that every interest shall be properly protected. I feel that it leaves your Lordships' House as perfect a Bill to carry out its object as any measure that could be passed into law. At it is a Private Bill there is, however, a danger when it goes to another place that it may not get on to the Statute Book unless the members there realise what the Bill will do, how it will improve the condition of our streams and rivers, how it will prevent further pollution in many cases, and what advantage it will be to the community in connection with amenity.
There is another point I should like to mention. Hundreds and thousands of working men who to-day fish for coarse fish find the rivers getting more and more impure by reason of trade effluents discharging into them. On the Severn and the Trent, on the two rivers Ouse and on other rivers large bodies of men find their recreation and their enjoyment.
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I would ask those who fish for trout on the lochs and streams of Scotland and fly fishers on the Test and Itchen to think how angry they would be if cyanide was placed in private waters where they get their enjoyment. In the same way I feel that working men who go fishing for coarse fish are entitled to some regard and to have impurities kept out of the rivers. I want members in another place to realise that this is a measure which will promote the purity of the streams of this country without doing any one any harm, and I hope that they will allow it to pass into law at the earliest possible moment. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Gainford.)
THE EAEL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I think I shall be voicing the general sentiment of your Lordships when I congratulate the noble Lord on the exemplary patience and tactical skill with which he has piloted this very valuable addition to our public health code through all its stages in this House. It remains for the Government, by providing the essential facilities in another place, to ensure that his efforts have not been in vain. I welcome his remarks on the Third Reading. I sincerely hope that they will be read in the OFFICIAL REPORT by members in another place and that the gist of his remarks will be widely reported in the Press.
I want to say a very few words on behalf of the London County Council, the Metropolitan Borough Councils and the Port of London Authority. These bodies have been obliged, owing to the special circumstances obtaining in the London area, to support the exclusion of this area from the territory in which the provisions of the Bill will become operative. At the same time they wish to indicate that if the Bill reaches the Statute Book they will follow the practical working of its provisions with the utmost attention, and if those provisions prove beneficial to the sewerage system in those areas whore they are adopted the London County Council will certainly consider what steps they would have to take in order to obtain similar provisions for the London area. That is to say they are waiting to see how the Bill works before they can make up their minds as to whether it may be necessary for them also to ask for legislation.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I cannot give a precise undertaking as to what will happen to this Bill when it reaches another place, but it is obvious from the fact that the Bill has been prepared in close consultation and in collaboration with the Ministry of Health that the Government view it with a certain amount of sympathy. I can only add my congratulations to the noble Lord who is in charge of the Bill on its successful passage through your Lordships' House.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Privilege Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

PILOTAGE AUTHORITIES (LIMITATION OF LIABILITIES) BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments (according to Order), and passed, and returned to the Commons.

PROPOSED NEW FORTH BRIDGE.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK had the following Notice on the Paper:—To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the strength of public opinion in Scotland in favour of the erection of a road bridge across the Firth of Forth at Queensferry as being very necessary for extending transport facilities in the East and from the South to the North of Scotland and for other important reasons; and further to ask that the requisite grant be provided from the Road Fund so that the work of construction may be started as soon as possible in accordance with the comprehensive scheme which has already been drawn up and presented to the Ministry of Transport by the Edinburgh Corporation, the Fife County Council, and other local authorities principally concerned in the matter; and to move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, at this late hour I do not propose to move the Motion I have put on the Paper in connection with the Forth road bridge, because I feel that the subject is far too important to be dealt with in such a small House. I have arranged with my noble friends who are supporting me in the matter to defer bringing up the matter until Wednesday, July 22. But I should also like to add another reason why perhaps it is useful that
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the debate should be adjourned until then. Further information has been sought by the Ministry of Transport from the local authorities concerned with regard to the advantages and necessity of the bridge. That information is now being compiled, and I sincerely hope that, as some three weeks will elapse between now and the time that I move my Motion on July 22, the local authorities will by then have presented that information to the Ministry of Transport, and that we shall be able in your Lordships' House, when the debate takes place, to have some real expression of opinion from the Government as to what attitude they propose to adopt towards the project.

CENTRAL (COAL MINES) SCHEME (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1936.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I think that some brief explanation is required for the Motion which stands in my name: That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved. I shall endeavour to be as brief as I possibly can at this late hour in explaining the provisions of this Draft Order. It will, I think, be within the recollection of the House that during the last General Election the Government announced that their contribution to the coal industry would be the unification of royalties, the setting up of organised selling, and a Royal Commission on Safety in Mines. Moreover, an assurance was given to my honourable friend the Minister of Mines that the colliery owners would, by the middle of this year, cause to be set up a complete and effective organisation for the sale of coal in each district, with co-ordination between districts through the Central Council. It is this latter Order which requires an affirmative Resolution, and which might well be described as the axis around which these seventeen District Orders revolve. The House will, therefore, observe that it is the necessary mechanism for the completion of the promise which the coalowners gave, not only to the Government but also to the workmen.
Part I of the Schedule gives power to the Central Council to issue directions to any district with regard to the terms and conditions of sale in that district. At present the Central Council can only

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act on the complaint of a district and with regard to minimum prices. In the future, however, they are required to act on their own initiative in regard to prices, terms and conditions of sale, and complaints on any other matter. I think that is the whole of this Order, and if there is any further information the House requires I shall, of course, endeavour to give it. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, as the only representative in either House on the Central Council, and as one who has been on that Central Council since the 1930 Act came into operation, and as I have been a vice-chairman and one of the district members since that period, perhaps a few words from me may be permissible on this occasion. The Draft Order seems to us, as coalowners, to be necessary to carry out the arrangements for central selling. We have undertaken to avoid competition and evasions, and the co-ordination required by the Central Council is essential in order that we may carry out our obligations to the Government. Personally, I always regarded the Act of 1930 as somewhat opposed to the free operation of economic law, but this alteration is now required after the experience which we have had in conducting the Act of 1930 and is only a natural development. While we have had powers to regulate our prices and quota, yet, in the light of experience, further powers of central selling are now required.
I believe that the operation of the Act of 1930 has had a really beneficial effect upon the industry. We have been passing through a period of great depression, with a capacity, over the greater portion of the period, greater than the demand, and if we had not had the operation of that Act of Parliament, inevitably there would have been further difficulties of many kinds occurring in the coalfields: reactions both of an economic and of a social character. Some coalowners appear to have either voted against the schemes in the locality or to have criticised the central selling scheme, but, so far as I am aware, no coalowner has done that with a view to preventing the passage of this Order or of the schemes. Their
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motive has been one of genuine belief that the schemes might be simplified and that some money might be saved in their administration. The schemes have, however, been put forward with a view to trying to help the men to have their conditions improved and their wages increased, as well as to secure increased profit for the industry. The Amendments, as I say, are designed merely to simplify the schemes and reduce the expense of operating.
The schemes have to some extent, up to the present, failed to fulfil all our hopes, and when the demand came last autumn by the Government that we should secure some form of central selling in order to obtain increased revenue, it was in response to that invitation of the Government that we undertook to carry out a central selling scheme both in our districts and centrally. That has naturally raised the apprehension of some of the consumers, because they see in the possession of a monopoly the possibility that prices might be raised to a height which would do some harm to certain industries in which the consumers are interested. As a rule the consumer is always right; at any rate, he has to be protected. There is no desire on the part of the coalowners to exploit the consumers; their interest is naturally to try to secure a steady trade at a reasonable profit, and to obtain only reasonable prices. I believe there is no reason now to apprehend that there will be any difficulty in finding a tribunal which will satisfy the consumers in the event of their taking any exception to the prices which may be asked for—a tribunal which will be impartial, which will be effective, and which will be prompt in its decisions.
Bearing all these questions of organisation in mind, I come to a point which the Minister for Mines made in another place when moving a Motion similar to that which the noble Earl has just moved here. He referred to the desirability of a reduction of units for which the Mines Bill which has recently been introduced was an integral part of a Government policy. The Coal Mines Bill already in the last six years has effected a great diminution in the number of units and it is surprising to-day to realise that 75 per cent. of the industry is carried on by 150 undertakings, and a great number of

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these undertakings are associated with other colliery owners so that they have arrangements inter se which really make it not necessary at all to consider any further compulsory amalgamations. Amalgamations have been suggested to be made compulsory and it seems to me that probably the main motive was to find work for a commission which has not operated during the past five years by securing compulsory amalgamation. That commission requires no doubt to find some work, but there is no work really for that commission to do in the interest either of the trade or the country. The ostensible object was to close down redundant collieries. The effect of the Mines Act of 1930 has been already to close down redundant collieries, and I say generally we have not redundant collieries which need to be forced down compulsorily by any Government organisation. Mechanisation will effect far more than any compulsory amalgamations which the Government can make. The operation of the selling schemes will conduce to voluntary mergers wherever required, and compulsory amalgamations are unnecessary.
One of the objects which I have in rising to-night in connection with this matter is to warn the Government that the miners are opposed to such compulsory amalgamations, that all those who have investments in collieries or in other businesses are opposed to forcible amalgamations such as are suggested by the Government, because those who have invested their money in undertakings will have no longer any concern with those who are going to direct them, and will have no opportunity of going before a judicial tribunal and securing justice if in the public interest their money is going to be extracted from them and dealt with by some other controlled body, which will put an end to all liberty of investment, which is the basis of successful enterprise in this country. The problem is a very important one, and we as coalowners intend to carry out selling arrangements to the advantage of the whole community, and we can do it best without further amalgamations being inserted in the Bill during the coming autumn.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I may perhaps just reply quite briefly to the remarks which the noble Lord has made.
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I am of course glad that he supports the Draft Order which I have presented to your Lordships to-night, and indeed for one with such knowledge as he possesses of the coal industry to support it, is some sort of comfort to my right honourable friend. With regard to the question which he put to me dealing with amalgamations I am afraid I am not in a position at this time to give him an explanation. He will observe that the Bill is now before the House of Commons, and I think the proper time to discuss it would be when the Bill arrives in this House. I am afraid I cannot go further at the present time.
LORD GAINFORD: I would not have referred to the subject unless the Secretary for Mines had referred to it in moving a similar Motion in another place.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MALTA: THE CASE OF JOSEPH ORLANDO SMITH.
LORD STRICKLAND: My Lords, I beg your indulgence before the adjournment is moved to submit a question of which private notice has been given, and which arises from a statement made in another place by a Minister of the Crown. In doing so, I will carefully observe the practice that there shall be no reference to speeches in another House, except in so far as they are statements of a responsible Minister of the Crown. The question must be raised now because the statement prejudices a deputation which has submitted a certain request for the free pardon of Joseph Orlando Smith to the predecessor of the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, to which an answer has not yet been given. I am quite certain the statements made, which are prejudicial, have been made unintentionally. The present Secretary of State for the Colonies has only recently assumed office, and his predecessor, a few days before relinquishing office, assured me he had not yet decided upon the deputation of which I had the honour of being a member together with the noble Lord, Lord Snell, who leads the Opposition in this House.
The deputation asked for a free pardon. The statement which I ask the Government whether they are prepared to reconsider is reported in the OFFICIAL

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REPORT of the House of Commons. With reference to Joseph Orlando Smith Mr. Ormsby-Gore said that "his sentence was wiped out immediately." I ask whether His Majesty's Government are prepared to reconsider that statement, because the sentence was not wiped out immediately, and the deputation are now asking for a free pardon. The remainder of the term of imprisonment was wiped out, but the fine was not wiped out and the costs were not dealt with, nor was the blackening of character by being in a position to be periodically pilloried in the anti-English Press as a spy, merely because he, had given useful information to the British Secret Service. So far from the sentence having been wiped out, quite recently in Malta he has again been insulted in the Press as a spy, and although he has asked the authorities to put in motion the anti-libel law, and has asked the Maltese police to protect him, they have refused to take action.
I also wish to ask the Government if they are prepared to reconsider the fact that in the very same speech in which the prejudicial statement was made we are told by the same Secretary of State that the Labour members ill the Maltese Parliament are among the most useful members of that Assembly. Joseph Orlando Smith was the Secretary of that Party. Joseph Orlando Smith made that Party pro-British, a matter of the greatest importance, considering the importance of the dockyard to-day. He is now the elected President of the Malta Trade Union Council. And what does Mr. Ormsby-Gore say in this same speech? He tells us that although he is going to abolish the Senate of Malta he is not going to abolish the Trade Union Council; he is going to allow the Trade Union Council to remain. He said:
"What I want to make clear to the honourable Member is that this does not mean that the Trade Union Council in Malta ceases to exist or ceases to be effective—"
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: On a point of order, I should like to ask whether it is not entirely unusual in asking a question of which private notice has been given to make a speech of considerable length on it.
LORD STRICKLAND: My Lords, I beg permission to deal with the point of order by saying I will say no more, but I think that what I have said is useful and interesting to your Lordships, and may be helpful to the Secretary of State. And, as I am not allowed to say any more, may I ask that the question be postponed and be put on the Paper in another form? I think I was bound to say something at once in order not to be cut out. I think I have done enough for that, and, with the indulgence of the House, I will put the question on the Notice Paper in the usual way, so that it may not be barred by its being said that I let it pass.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, if I may contribute a word on the point of order, it is of course entirely out of order in this House to get up and make a speech with regard to a matter on which there is no Motion and no Question on the Order Paper, but any noble Lord is entitled as of right to put down a Question, and by putting down a Question he can make a speech by the customary practice of this House. If he wishes to make two speeches, then he moves for Papers. If he wishes to make only one speech, then he puts down a Question and says what he wants to say. But it is necessary, in order to make a speech at all, to take one or other of those two courses.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I hope it is in order for me just to say this, that I hope the fact that the noble Lord has not been able to deal with this case to-night will not mean that there is not a case to put and that His Majesty's Government will not consider it seriously whenever the opportunity arises.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, in view of what the noble Lord has said, I do not think there is any object in my delaying the House this evening. But quite obviously if the noble Lord puts this Question down in the ordinary way the Government will attempt to give the most satisfactory answer possible.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past seven o'clock.

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of certain proposed Amendments to the following Bill:

London and North Eastern Railway (General Powers).

The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (ADDITIONAL POWERS) Bill.
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The Orders made on the 27th of May last and 30th of June last discharged, and Bill committed for Wednesday next.
LONDON AND NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders, in respect of certain proposed Amendments, referred to the Standing Orders Committee.

DRAFT UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (ANOMALIES) (SEASONAL WORKERS) (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1936.
Made by the Minister of Labour under Section 55 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1935 [in substitution for the Draft Order presented on the 23rd of June last]:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.