Sitting of 5 March 1935

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Great Western Railway Bill.
Bill committed.
Private Bill Petitions (Standing Orders not complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:
Sunderland Corporation.
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    SHIPPING INDUSTRY (PAINTING).
    Mr. McENTEEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company are making a practice of having their vessels painted abroad by foreign labour while large numbers of ship painters in the London shipping area are unemployed; and whether he will make representations to the company as to the desirability of having this work done at home?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): I am informed that most of the painting of the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company's ships is done in London and only a very small proportion at ports abroad.
    Mr. McENTEE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at least four ships in the last year or two have put the paint on board in London and had the painting done in China?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, Sir, I was not aware of that fact; I have given the information as it reached me.

    SEASONAL WORKERS.
    Colonel BALDWIN-WEBBasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the unusual circumstances which prevail in respect of the claims to benefit of certain insured workers who have recently been employed in the Wrekin area in Shropshire who, during the season, work at the beet factory and who, during the remainder of the year, seek such other industrial work as may be available; and whether he is in a position to make a statement upon the matter?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I am aware that certain workers in beet factories are found to be seasonal workers within the meaning of the seasonal workers regulation. The question of the working of this regulation will be considered by the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee as soon as it is practicable for them to do so.
    Colonel BALDWIN-WEBB: Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that immediate steps will be taken to ensure that these men are not worse off than those men who have not taken this kind of work?
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the severe penalty placed upon this kind of workman and of the urgency of the matter? Will he take steps to see, in regard to these persons whose only resource is the Poor Law—not even transitional benefit—that somethoing will be done to relieve these and similar kinds of cases.
    Mr. STANLEY: As the hon. Member knows, there is a statutory obligation on me under the 1934 Act to obtain the

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    advice of the statutory committee when any Amendment is made in the regulations, and I am adopting this particular method of getting their advice.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a committee was set up under the Anomalies Act which deprived these people of help and has he not the power at least to try to see whether he cannot now so ease the position as to allow these poor people some way of benefiting?
    Mr. STANLEY: I will certainly consider any possibility included in my statutory power, but before there is any amendment of the regulations those Amendments have to be submitted to this advisory committee.
    Colonel BALDWIN-WEBB: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in his discretion, he cannot make arrangements whereby the men who do this work and have done this work are not in a worse position than those men who have not done this work but are otherwise in similar circumstances?
    Mr. STANLEY: My hon. Friend knows that I have no discretion in the interpretation of these regulations, but, as I have said, I have taken the earliest practical step to have any anomalies created by the regulations inquired into, and, if necessary, remedied.

    SPECIAL AREAS (SCHEMES).
    Miss WARDasked the Minister of Labour how much of the £2,000,000 allocated to 31st March for expenditure in the distressed areas has in fact been definitely sanctioned?
    Mr. STANLEY: Schemes involving expenditure of approximately £600,000 by the Commissioner for England and Wales have already been approved, subject in some instances to settlement of all the details, and other schemes which would entail a large increase on this expenditure are under active consideration. As regards schemes in Scotland perhaps my hon. Friend will address a question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
    Miss WARD: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will consider keeping the House informed as to the extent of the schemes authorised, so that the House and the country may realise that
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    the Government are serious in their desire to help forward schemes in special areas?
    Mr. STANLEY: I have no doubt that many occasions will arise when this fact can be mentioned in debate. Indeed, these schemes were mentioned in the Debate yesterday.

    AGRICULTURAL WORKERS.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Minister of Labour whether, in the proposed Bill to extend unemployment insurance to agricultural workers, private gardeners are to be included or excluded; and whether he will state the reasons for the decision?
    Mr. STANLEY: I cannot at present add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald) on the 7th February, a copy of which I am sending to the hon. Member.
    Mr. DAVIES: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will be able, at a given date, say, three weeks or a month hence, to give us more information on this important subject?
    Mr. STANLEY: I shall be able at a given date, but I cannot give the date to-day.

    UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE.
    Miss WARDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that no estimate is available for the cost to local authorities of public assistance from 1st October to 31st March to those persons who will come under Part II of the Unemployment Insurance Act on the appointed day, he will state on what basis he is negotiating a settlement with the representatives of the English local authorities?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): The basis of the settlement which has now been reached with local authorities in England and Wales as well as in Scotland is that they shall be placed, as nearly as can be ascertained, in the same position financially as they would have occupied had the date of the appointed day remained fixed at the 1st March.
    Miss WARD: In view of the fact that no figures were available on Thursday last when valuable concessions were

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    granted to local authorities, may I ask whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is usually in the habit of granting concessions without having the necessary information as to the cost to the Treasury?
    Mr. LOGANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, when negotiating with representatives of associations of English local authorities the financial assistance to be given to such authorities by reason of the postponement of the second appointed day, under the Unemployment Act, 1934, he will keep in mind such authorities as the county borough of Bootle where it will be necessary to levy a rate in respect of public assistance equal to 61.15 per cent. of the total rate, as compared with a rate equal to 55.83 per cent. of the total rate had the second appointed day not been cancelled; and whether, in order to assist such authorities when budgeting for the coming financial year, he will indicate the probable date when he will announce the extent of such financial assistance and the date to be fixed as the second appointed day?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, a settlement has now been reached after full discussion with representatives of the associations of local authorities and the difficulty of budgeting to which he refers has presumably disappeared. I am not yet in a position to say when the second appointed day will be. I am unable to identify the particular figures he quotes as regards Bootle but perhaps I may comment that he appears to have compared the gross public assistance rate with the net total rate, i.e. he has taken no account of the substantial block grant which Bootle receives from the Exchequer in a form available as general revenue, and therefore operating to meet expenditure of all kinds.
    Mr. LOGAN: Is the right hon. Member not aware that these particular figures have been supplied to me by the town clerk of the municipality of Bootle?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, and I was only pointing out that there are other figures which have to be taken into account.
    Mr. CLEARY: Will the right hon. Gentleman indicate when he will be able to make a statement with regard to the second appointed day?

    HEALTH INSURANCE BENEFITS.
    Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHSasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that, because unemployed persons are now not in medical benefit with approved societies because of the 1932 Health Insurance Act, they have to pay 9d. per week to their club doctor, whereas when they were employed and in benefit they had only to pay 5d. per week for their families; and will he consider the question of restoring medical benefits?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Shakespeare): As regards the first part of the question, my right hon. Friend took note of the information given by the hon. Member in his speech in Committee of Supply on Friday last, but the terms on which medical attention is to be provided by private practitioners to persons who are not entitled to medical benefit under the scheme of National Health Insurance is a matter beyond my right hon. Friend's competence. In reply to the latter part of the question the position under the schemes of health insurance and contributory pensions of persons who have suffered from prolonged unemployment will be considered in the light of the first report of the Government Actuary on the financial operation of the Contributory Pensions Acts.
    Mr. LOGAN: Is it the intention that the Acts should operate so as to enable these people to get benefits?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: Of course, that will be considered.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: In view of the very great distress which is being caused to people who are suffering from prolonged unemployment and who have fallen out of the contributory pensions scheme, can the hon. Gentleman let us know when the report of the actuary is expected to be available?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The report will naturally go to the Treasury. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put a question down to that Department.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    BRAZIL.
    Sir CHARLES CAYZERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether in view of three defaults within 30 years on British pre-war loans to Brazilian public authorities, followed by the unacceptable unilateral 1934 arrangement imposed upon British investors by the Brazilian Government and the exchange restrictions upon payments for British exports to Brazil, he will inform the Brazilian Financial Mission that these experiences discourage the extension of British trade arrangements with Brazil?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I can assure my hon. Friend that these facts are not being overlooked in the discussions which are proceeding with the Brazilian Financial Mission now in London.

    FLAGS AND EMBLEMS (IMPORTS).
    Major PROCTERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that British flags and patriotic emblems of foreign make are being imported into this country for sale in connection with the celebration of His Majesty's Silver Jubilee; and whether he will take steps either to prohibit such importation or to ensure that foreign articles of this description are compulsorily marked with the country of origin?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: There is no power to prohibit the import of British flags and emblems. Many classes of imported goods are, however, required to bear an indication of origin by virtue of the provisions of the Merchandise Marks Acts or orders-in-council made thereunder, and one of these 'Orders requires imported flags to bear as from 1st March an indication of origin on sale or exposure for sale within the United Kingdom.
    Major PROCTER: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that these imports are conspicuously marked with the name of the country of origin?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: They have to be marked in accordance with the provisions of the Merchandise Marks Act.

    ITALY (IMPORT RESTRICTIONS).
    Mr. ISAAC FOOTasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now give any information as to the result of the representations made to the Italian Government in respect of the
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    quota restriction on the import of British-caught pilchards?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have nothing at present to add to the reply which was given to my hon. Friend on this subject on 27th February, but the whole matter of the new import restrictions is being actively pursued with the Italian Government, and a further statement will be made as soon as possible.
    Mr. FOOT: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to a statement that the Ministry of Finance in Italy have relaxed the quota upon importations from some seven or eight countries, restoring it to 100 per cent.; and is not such action discrimination if the quota is maintained against our imports?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am inquiring into these facts at the present time. If there is discrimination against this country, we shall, of course, have to take active steps?
    Viscountess ASTOR: Will the right hon. Gentleman, now that the Abyssinian question has been pretty well settled, make a private and personal appeal to the Italian Government to make up the leeway that has occurred as regards pilchards, which so much affect the West Country?
    Mr. MANDER: Is it not a fact that for the last three years there has been almost an equal balance of trade between this country and Italy; and will the right hon. Gentleman make representations on that ground?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, Sir, I believe that that is the fact. With regard to pilchards, these, of course, are one of the commodities imported into Italy which are now under restriction. We are taking up that question actively with the Italian Government.

    FRANCE (BRITISH SHELLFISH IMPORTS).
    Mr. ISAAC FOOTasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any information with regard to the complaint that Norwegian-caught shellfish have been included within the quantity of shellfish imported into France under the existing quota system; and whether steps will be taken to ensure that the quantity allowed under the quota shall consist only of shellfish caught by British fishermen?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The complaint to which, I assume, my hon. Friend is referring, was brought to the notice of the French authorities, who then discovered that certain consignments of foreign crustacea had been wrongly declared as of United Kingdom origin. The United Kingdom quota was adjusted accordingly. At the same time the French Government instituted a requirement that all crustacea imported into France must be accompanied by certificates of origin issued by the Customs in the country of origin.
    Mr. FOOTasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any representations have been made to the French Government in respect of the quota restrictions imposed on the imports of British-caught shellfish; and whether the exhaustion of the quota for the current year involves the prohibition of such imports up to June of this year?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the French Government state that the excess of imports from the United Kingdom in 1934 over the quotas allotted was such that imports into France of fresh crustacea from the United Kingdom cannot be permitted before the 11th June next.

    BACON AND HAM (IMPORTS).
    Mr. LEONARDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will give detailed particulars of the restrictions now plaecd upon imports into this country of bacon and ham, in respect of each individual country, showing the reductions in the quota in the case of each country?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: A statement of the quantities of bacon (as defined in the Bacon (Import Regulation) Order, 1934) to be imported from each of the main foreign exporting countries during the period January to April, 1935, was published in the Board of Trade Journal of 3rd January, a copy of which I am sending the hon. Member. The basic allocation shown represents a total reduction of 3.8 per cent. as compared with the period August to December, 1934. In the case of Denmark, to which country certain arrears were due, the reduction amounts
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    to 2 per cent.; in the case of the other countries shown it amounts to 8.3 per cent

    RUSSIAN TIMBER.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to give particulars to the House of the communication which he received from the Canadian Government with reference to the importation into Great Britain of Russian timber under a fall clause; and what action the British Government is taking thereon, having regard to the terms of Article 21 of the Ottawa Agreement?
    Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to state what is the attitude of the Government with regard to the agreement entered into between Timber Distributors, Limited, and the Soviet Government for 400,000 standards of timber and the fall clause in that agreement?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I would refer my hon. Friends to the reply I gave to the hon. Members for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom), Kensington, South (Sir W. Davison) and Wycombe (Sir A. Knox) on 56th February.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to make a statement to the House, so that Canadian importers may know what their position is in the matter? Does he realise that it is a matter of very great urgency?
    Mr. T. SMITH: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information with regard to the difference in price between Canadian timber sold in this country and this other timber?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, Sir; I do not think that that has any direct bearing on the question on the Paper. With regard to the supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison), I would point out to him that the contract runs for only a year. If it were modified, the quantities already imported could, if necessary, be taken into account. In any case the importing season has not yet begun.
    Captain MACDONALD: Surely there was a simple and straightforward issue

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    last year. The right hon. Gentleman has had it before him now for a fortnight or so, and surely he can come to a decision?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am afraid I cannot quite agree with my hon. and gallant Friend that it is a simple issue; it is a matter for negotiation.
    Sir W. DAVISON: When can I put down another question on the matter?

    INDIA (LAC INDUSTRY).
    Mr MANDERasked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any statement to make with reference to the recent attempted corner in shellac as affecting the Indian lac industry; and whether any action is proposed to prevent in future the disturbance caused by gambling and speculation on the London produce market to this important Indian industry?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Sir Samuel Hoare): I am asking the Government of India for a report as to the effects on the Indian industry. As regards the second part of the question, I have nothing to add to the replies given on behalf of the Board of Trade and Treasury to recent questions of a similar Mature.

    AUSTRALIA (BRITISH CATALOGUES).
    Mr. BOULTONasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is aware that trade catalogues and show-cards sent by manufacturers from this country to the Commonwealth of Australia have to bear heavy taxation; and what action he proposes to take with a view to removing this barrier to the mutual trade relations between the two countries?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): I have recently been in communication with His Majesty's Government in the Commonwealth of Australia in regard to this matter, and I understand that in December last the Commonwealth Government made provision for the admission free of Customs duty of trade catalogues and price lists, not advertising the sale of goods by a person, firm or company in Australia, if imported in single copies addressed to merchants, up to a limit of one copy each branch.
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    The wider question referred to by my hon. Friend will continue to be borne in mind for such action as is possible.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    RECRUITING.
    Captain P. MACDONALDasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office how many of the 10,000 recruits needed during the first quarter of this year have been obtained up to date; and whether he is satisfied that the reorganisation of the recruiting arrangements has now effectually overcome the difficulties experienced during recent years?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Douglas Hacking): Of 9,800 recruits required during the first quarter of this year, 6,010 were obtained up to 23rd February. This is an increase over the corresponding period last year, and is undoubtedly due to the benefits derived from the reorganisation of the recruiting services. I do not, however, suggest that the flow of recruits is entirely satisfactory as yet.
    Mr. MAXTON: I think the right hon. Gentleman said that he has obtained 6,000 recruits. Has he got figures showing how many men offered themselves?
    Mr. HACKING: I must have notice of that question.

    TERRITORIAL AIR DEFENCE UNITS.
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether any closer co-operation is being considered between the Territorial Air Defence Units (Searchlights) and the Royal Air Force?
    Mr. HACKING: For operations, whether in peace or war, the Air Defence Formations of the Territorial Army are under the orders of the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Air Defences of Great Britain. Their training is carried out in co-operation with the Royal Air Force. These arrangements ensure the most complete touch between all concerned.

    TERRITORIAL ARMY (RECRUITING).
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what steps he is proposing to take to improve recruiting for the Territorial Force?
    Mr. HACKING: Recruiting for the Territorial Army is in the hands of the county associations, and I know that they are taking all possible steps to improve the position. The matter has also been engaging the close attention of the authorities at the War Office for some time, and I hope, when presenting Army Estimates, to make certain proposals that should be of assistance.

    ROYAL DEFENCE CORPS.
    Major WATTasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what progress has been made with the formation of the Royal Defence Corps; and how many men were recruited up to the 1st January of this year?
    Mr. HACKING: Figures for 1st January are not yet available, but the strength of the corps on 31st October last was 84 officers and 1,042 men out of a total establishment of 192 officers and 6,177 men.

    HIS MAJESTY'S SILVER JUBILEE(CELEBRATIONS).
    Mr. STOURTONasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he can now make a further statement as to the participation of the Territorial Forces in the Jubilee celebration?
    Major WATTasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is now in a position to state the part that the Territorial Army will be called upon to take in the forthcoming Jubilee celebration?
    Mr. HACKING: So far as the main, celebration in London is concerned, it has been decided that the Honourable Artillery Company should provide a guard of honour at St. Paul's Cathedral on the occasion of the Thanksgiving Service. Other units of the Territorial Army in London will have the opportunity of lining the route to and from St. Paul's Cathedral. In Cardiff and Edinburgh similarly, units of the Territorial Army will line the streets when His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales and His Royal Highness The Duke of York respectively represent His Majesty at these places. In the local celebrations elsewhere General Officers Commanding-in-Chief will collaborate with the Lord
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    Lieutenants of the counties so that Territorial Army troops may take part in celebrations in proximity to the places where they normally drill. All Territorial Army troops parading for the celebrations on the 6th May, or on the 11th May in the case of Cardiff and Edinburgh, will receive pay and ration allowance for that day.
    Brigadier-General NATION: Could my right hon. Friend say whether any decision has yet been arrived at with regard to cadet units?
    Mr. HACKING: No, Sir; no decision has been reached yet. I hope to be in a position to say something about that matter shortly.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will give particulars of those parts of the Jubilee celebrations in which the civil element will be emphasised?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): I would refer the hon. Member to the official programme published on the 12th February.

  SCOTLAND.

    EDUCATION (MILK SUPPLY SCHEME).
    Mr. GUYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he can state the number of local authorities which have not yet put into operation a scheme for the supply of milk in schools?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): The number of education authorities not yet operating arrangements under the Milk Act for the supply of milk in schools is 19. Of these, seven expect to be able to institute arrangements either during the present month or immediately after the Easter vacation. Of the remainder, there are three areas, namely, Aberdeenshire, Aberdeen City and Kincardine, where the local milk marketing board up to the present has not agreed to carry out the scheme.
    Mr. GUY: Will my hon. Friend apply what pressure he can on those local authorities who have not yet commenced schemes so that as quickly as possible the scheme may operate throughout the whole country?
    Mr. SKELTON: There are constant negotiations going on. On the whole, the matter is proceeding satisfactorily.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there are 97,000 children who enter elementary schools in Scotland who are physically defective in some way, and will he do all he can to see that those children who are to get the milk get it?
    Mr. SKELTON: I think my answer to the last supplementary question covers that point.

    ANGLO-SCOTTISH BEET-SUGAR CORPORATION, LIMITED (LOANS).
    Mr. MALLALIEUasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what security, if any, is held by the Treasury in respect of sums amounting to several hundred thousand pounds paid by the Treasury, directly or indirectly, to the insurance company which granted loans to the Anglo-Scottish Beet-Sugar Corporation, Limited, under the provisions of the Trade Facilities Acts, and which failed to obtain repayments from the corporation as due?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Duff Cooper): The Treasury is entitled to share, to the extent to which payments have been made by them under their guarantee, in the benefit of the security held by the insurance company, consisting of first fixed and floating charges upon the property and assets of the corporation. The whole of this security will become available for the Treasury so soon as the loan from the insurance company has been fully paid off.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    LOW-TEMPERATURE CARBONISATION.
    Mr. TINKERasked the Secretary for Mines how many works there are with plant dealing with low-temperature carbonisation; and will he say the number of tons of coal that are used annually in this process?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Ernest Brown): During 1933, nine low-temperature carbonisation plants were in operation on a commercial or semi-commercial scale. The amount of coal carbonised amounted to nearly 318,000 tons. Figues for 1934 are not yet available.

    RUFFORD COLLIERY.
    Mr. CHARLES BROWNasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that William Arthur Palmer, of 62, South Avenue, Rainworth, Notts, was the victim of a fatal accident at Rufford Colliery on Saturday, 16th February, at 12.30 p.m., that this man worked the afternoon shift on Friday, 15th February, and did not leave the pit on that day till 11.15 p.m., and that he was back at work at 6.30 a.m. on the morning on which the fatal accident occurred; and whether, in view of these facts and the breach of the regulations involved, he will have special inquiry made by his inspectors into the causes of this fatality?
    Mr. E. BROWN: The circumstances of this accident were examined on 18th February—within two days of its occurrence—by one of His Majesty's inspectors and also workmen's inspectors appointed Under Section 16 of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, and, in view of the reports received, I do not consider that any further special inquiry is called for.
    Mr. C. BROWN: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware of the growing practice in the Nottingham coalfields of working two shifts in 24 hours? Does he not think that the abnormal fatigue incurred by that is to be deprecated as likely to result in accidents, and will he have some further investigation made into the matter?
    Mr. E. BROWN: That is a wider question. As the hon. Member knows, I am giving attention to the whole matter, but this particular case is a rather difficult one. If he cares to discuss it with me, I shall be glad to give him the details.
    Mr. T. SMITH: Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that it is a deliberate violation of the Mines Act if the statements in the question are correct?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I have said that the case is a difficult one, and I am quite prepared to discuss it with the hon. Member.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines how many visits were made to the Rufford Colliery, Notts, during 1934 by His Majesty's inspector for mines?
    Mr. E. BROWN: The number of visits was 14, of which 12 were made for the purpose of underground inspection, and two for inspection on the surface.

    SHOT-FIRING.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines whether it is his intention to circularise colliery managers to the effect that, so far as practicable, shots should be fired between shifts or after withdrawing the workmen from the working face?
    Mr. E. BROWN: Yes, Sir.

    NEWFOUNDLAND (UNEMPLOYMENT).
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he will make a statement with regard to the state of employment and the condition of the unemployed in Newfoundland?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: On reading the reports which recently appeared in certain newspapers I immediately telegraphed to the acting Governor to ascertain the facts, and I am now informed by him that the reports are greatly exaggerated, and that there has been no disorder and no hostile demonstration. The acting Governor informs me that the unemployment situation in Newfoundland, though it continues to be serious, shows a substantial improvement on the corresponding period of the previous year. Each of the six months July to December, 1934, has shown on an average a reduction of 17,000 in the number of persons in receipt of relief as compared with the figures for the corresponding months in 1933. The number for last December was 53,191 as compared with 71,172 in the previous year.
    Mr. WHITE: Will the right hon. Gentleman adopt any method that may be available for making these facts known in view of the alarming and distressing reports which appear to be exaggerated?
    Mr. THOMAS: These alarming reports have appeared, as far as I can judge, in one newspaper alone, and I hope the facts that are now given will prevent that newspaper reiterating them.
    Mr. MAXTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, apart from newspapers in this country, the Newfoundland
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    newspapers are very disturbing in their opinions on the matter and would he, having regard to the promise made during the passage of the Bill, provide an early date for the discussion of the whole position in Newfoundland?
    Mr. THOMAS: On any Vote that can be arranged I should not only welcome it, but I think it would be a good thing to explain the facts. With regard to the newspapers, and certainly newspapers in Newfoundland, I prefer to reserve that until the Debate takes place.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is aware of the protest being made in Newfoundland regarding the treatment of the unemployed and their dependants; that the unemployed are receiving less than 4d. per day, and their wives and dependants are suffering from under-nourishment; and whether he will have immediate inquiries made into the matter and call for a Report from the Commission?
    Mr. THOMAS: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I have just given the hon. Member for Birkenhead East (Mr. White). I have received this morning from the Acting Governor a telegram dealing specially with the points raised in the question. With the permission of the House I will circulate the text with the OFFICIAL REPORT. This telegram will, I am confident, reassure the hon. Member and the House generally that the Commission of Government in Newfoundland are doing everything possible to ameliorate the condition of the unemployed in the Island, and have already achieved considerable results.
    Mr. LUNN: Has the right hon. Gentleman had an interim report, and when does he expect that the Commission will make a further report?
    Mr. THOMAS: When I saw the Press report, which I frankly admit was most distressing, without regard to the possibility of questions being asked, I immediately telephoned to Newfoundland, and in the reply which will be circulated there will be a full communication on the whole situation from those responsible.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is it true that the unemployed in Newfoundland are receiving less than 4d. a day?
    Mr. THOMAS: In the reply that is being circulated—[An HON. MEMBER: "Why not read it?"] The House generally resents the reading of a long reply. The reply itself will give a full report by those on the spot. I did not want to be drawn into a discussion as to 3½d. or 4d. I want the House to appreciate the full facts from those on the spot.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is it not customary on an important matter, particularly when a question is asked from the front Opposition bench, to ask permission to read the reply?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind the hon. Member that there are 64 questions on the paper. Other Members have a right to have their questions answered.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: I put a simple question. Is it less or more than 4d. a day that is being paid to the unemployed? Surely the right hon. Gentleman can answer that?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not pretend to answer questions.
    Following is the telegram:
    TELEGRAM from the Officer Administering the Government of Newfoundland to the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs. Dated 4th March, 1935.
    Public Health Department during the last nine months has greatly amplified relief measures on behalf of destitutes of the country generally. In St. John's and at outside points food relief 25 per cent. greater than heretofore. Articles supplied represent great improvement in standard of living hitherto maintained. In some sections of St. John's relief full distribution double the quantity given before. Public Health Department doctors and nurses treat all sick poor and special food supplies are issued for this class where prescribed by professional staffs. Child Welfare Associations supplied by Department with milk for under-nourished children of the poor. Department distribute bread and milk to pupils every school day. General distribution of soup made to destitute of the city every weekday. Child mortality in city higher than normal for February due to epidemic of influenza superimposed on the previous outbreak of measles and whooping cough and some considerable number of cases of scarlet fever. Child mortality of independent section of population as great in proportion as among the section on relief. General and marked improvement noted in this respect in all sections during the last week and no child deaths at all reported in the city since the beginning of March. Department also financing St. John's outposts in the distribution of clothing for the three destitute classes namely, widows and orphans, aged and in
    1742
    firm, and sick. Outside relief operations show much greater liberality towards the poor than ever before in Newfoundland. Physician retained on salary for treatment of sick poor: Nurse stationed among the destitute living in scattered and isolated section and these undertakings limited only by qualified material available for the purpose. Food supplies on relief account increased and amplified by special distribution of vegetables in sections where agriculture not possible. General mortality in Newfoundland not one per cent. higher than that of Great Britain. Please note that during February only seven deaths occurred among children of families on relief in St. John's with a population of 44,000 and with 4,500 persons on relief.

    AGRICULTURE: AUSTRALIAN MEAT (IMPORTS).
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, seeing that British exports of window glass to Australia are limited by quota and that such quota is considerably less than that allotted to Belgium, he will take advantage of these arrangements as a ground for the limitation of Australian meat imports to this country?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: As regards the importation of sheet glass into Australia I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for St. Helens on 26th February. As the House is aware, discussions are at present taking place with His Majesty's Government in the Commonwealth and with the other Governments concerned on the question of imports of meat into the United Kingdom: in connection with these discussions all relevant considerations will be kept in mind.
    Mr. LAMBERT: When will these meat discussions commence? Shall we hear something about them? Will the British agriculturist know what is going on?
    Mr. THOMAS: They will take place, I presume, when the Dominion Premiers arrive. I will listen to what they say.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: Can the right hon. Gentleman publish the correspondence which has already taken place between the Dominions and his office?
    Mr. THOMAS: I understand that at a later date a question on that point will be put, and there will be an opportunity of seeing the full facts.

    CANADA (PALESTINE PRODUCE).
    Mr. WHITEasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the discriminatory duty charged by the Canadian customs on Palestine fruit, and other produce, shipped from the United Kingdom to Canada; and, if so, what action he is taking in the matter
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: I am not aware that any general discriminatory duty is charged in Canada on Palestine fruit and other Palestine produce shipped from the United Kingdom to Canada, but certain difficulties have arisen in connection with the duty charged on oranges from Palestine shipped to Canada via the United Kingdom. I am already in communication with His Majesty's Government in Canada as to this.

    SOUTHERN RHODESIA.
    Mr. PALINGasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he will give an assurance that His Majesty's Government has no intention of abandoning its ultimate responsibility for Native policy in Southern Rhodesia?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply to the question on this subject by the hon. and gallant Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) which I gave on the 26th February.
    Mr. OSWALD LEWISasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made with regard to the proposal to set aside an area in the south-eastern portion of Southern Rhodesia with a view to securing a partial reserve for the natural fauna of the colony to adjoin the northern end of the Kruger National Park?
    Mr. THOMAS: I understand that, under the provisions of the Southern Rhodesia Game and Fish Preservation Act, 1929, the Governor of Southern Rhodesia issued a proclamation on the 27th April, 1934, defining an area in the south-east portion of Southern Rhodesia, within which the hunting of game, without the special permission in writing of the Minister, is prohibited. To that extent, therefore, the area in question, which lies to the north of the Kruger National Park and adjoins it at one point, may be regarded as a game reserve.

    IRISH FREE STATE (LAND BONDS).
    Mr. STOURTONasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether his attention has been called to the fact that after nearly four years there still remain undelivered large sums of Irish Four and a-half Per Cent. Land Bonds guaranteed by the British Government due to those whose estates were compulsorily purchased under the Irish Free State Land Act of 1931; whether he can state the total nominal value of such bonds already handed over under the Act and the amount outstanding for delivery; and what steps it is proposed to take with the Irish Free State to negotiate a speedy completion of purchase?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: Delivery of the Land Bonds issued in respect of land purchased in the Irish Free State under the Irish Free State Land Act of 1931 is entirely a matter for the Irish Free State Government, and I have no information as to the number of Bonds handed over or the amount outstanding for delivery. The matter does not appear to be one on which I have any ground for making representations to the Irish Free State Government.
    Mr. STOURTON: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is an unfair burden upon those who were compulsorily dispossessed of their property as far back as 1931 and still await payment, and that great hardship has been caused particularly to small bondholders?
    Mr. THOMAS: No, I do not understand that. I understand that the real difficulty is that certain people who are entitled to certain bonds have not received the script because of some difficulty, but most folk will not be worried about not receiving the script if they are satisfied that they are receiving the interest, and, as far as I know, they are receiving it.
    Mr. STOURTON: Does my right hon. Friend suggest that the capital is of no account in this matter?
    Mr. THOMAS: I not only do not suggest that capital is of no account, but I think that capital is of very much account, and that is why I am always advocating that there should be no policy that will depreciate capital.

    JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (WOMEN).
    Mr. McENTEEasked the Attorney-General which boroughs and county divisions are still without women justices?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Donald Somervell): There are 1,006 petty sessional divisions, of which 746 are county, 251 borough and 9 with special jurisdiction. Of these there are 53 county and 9 borough divisions to which women justices have not as yet been allocated. With the permission of the hon. Member I will circulate the names of these divisions in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. McENTEE: May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman whether, in view of the usefulness of women magistrates in other areas, it is proposed to fill vacancies as they occur in the areas which up to now have had no women magistrates?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The next question but one on the Paper deals with the procedure for the appointment of justices, and no doubt those who are concerned in working that procedure will note what the hon. Gentleman has said.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman bring to the notice of the Government the fact that there is among the lord-lieutenants one in particular who says that as long as he is in his position there will be no women appointed?
    Following are the names:

    Petty Sessional Divisions.

    County.

    Boroughs.

    Berks:

    Faringdon.

    Maidenhead.

    Hungerford.

    Ilsley.

    Lambourn.

    Moreton.

    Isle of Ely:

    Whittlesey.

    Wisbech.

    Cheshire:

    —

    Congleton.

    Derby:

    Appletree.

    Repton.

    Wirksworth.

    Petty Sessional Divisions.

    County.

    Boroughs.

    Durham:

    Castle Eden.

    Sunderland.

    West Hartlepool.

    Hants:

    Eastleigh.

    Ramsey.

    Lines (Kesteven):

    —

    Stamford.

    Lines (Lindsey):

    Wragby.

    Monmouth:

    Skenfrith.

    Trelleck.

    Notts:

    —

    Newark.

    Oxford:

    —

    Henley-on-Thames.

    Salop:

    Bishops Castle.

    Ludlow.

    Clun and Purslow.

    Wenlock.

    Wem.

    Wilts:

    Trowbridge.

    Worcester:

    Evesham.

    Tenbury.

    Yorks (East Riding):

    Holme Beacon.

    Howdenshire.

    Middle Holderness.

    North Holderness.

    North Hunsley Beacon.

    South Holderness.

    Yorks (West Riding):

    Bolton by Bow-land.

    Ewecross.

    Kirkby Malzard.

    Lower Barkston Ash.

    Liberty of Ripon.

    Brecon:

    Defynock.

    Talgarth.

    Carnarvon:

    Nant Conway.

    Cardigan:

    Lampeter.

    Llanilar.

    Tregaron.

    Carmarthen:

    Llanboidy.

    Newcastle Emlyn.

    St. Clears.

    Petty Sessional Divisions.

    County.

    Boroughs.

    Denbighshire:

    Isaled.

    Llangollen.

    Uwchaled.

    Uwchddulas.

    Glamorgan:

    Aberavon.

    Cowbridge.

    Gower.

    Swansea.

    Merioneth:

    Edeyrnion.

    Montgomery:

    Mathrafal.

    Pembroke:

    Cilgerran.

    Radnor:

    Colwyn.

    Mr. TINKERasked the Attorney-General whether he is aware of the widespread protests concerning the appointments of magistrates; and whether he will give the procedure adopted when the selections are made?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I am not aware of widespread protests. Since the report of the Royal Commission on the Selection of Justices of the Peace the selection of those who are to be considered for appointment is made by advisory committees and they submit a list of names to the Lord Chancellor or the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster as the case may be. In considering these recommendations account is taken of the requirements of the district and the qualifications of the persons proposed for appointment.
    Mr. TINKER: May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman if a citizen who has the ability to serve is debarred from the position of Justice of the Peace because of his occupation? Does that come within the proviso?
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: Will my hon. and learned Friend consider introducing legislation by which a proportion of the magistrates on every bench should be women?
    HON. MEMBERS: No.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: That is entirely a different question, but, so far as the question put by my hon. Friend is concerned, the general answer is most
    1748
    certainly "No." Of course if a man's occupation was such that it precluded him from attending on the bench to the extent which a magistrate ought to do if he is to pull his weight, no doubt that would be a proper matter for the advisory committee to consider.
    Mr. TINKER: The question of being precluded from attending is not the point. If he follows an occupation which would enable him to attend, is he debarred from occupying that position?
    Mr. GROVES: Is it not true that these advisory committees are appointed for political reasons, and has the hon. and learned Gentleman considered an area like West Ham, where the Chairman belongs to a party that is almost defunct, and where there is a member of a party which is now absolutely defunct, and where it is not—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We cannot go into all that now.

    LOTTERIES AND SWEEPSTAKES (CORRESPONDENCE).
    Mr. DREWEasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that a lady in Exmouth made a personal application in writing enclosing a 10s. Treasury note for a single ticket in the Irish sweepstake, and that the letter was opened and the contents returned in a registered letter for which she had to pay 3d.; whether he will state what illegal action she had committed; and why She had to pay the charge of 3d.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: As I have frequently explained, although it is not a specific offence for a person to purchase a lottery ticket for his own use, it is an offence to sell or distribute Irish sweepstake tickets in this country. The use of the post by individual applicants would facilitate distribution by the promoters of the Irish Hospital sweepstakes and on that account cannot be allowed. I am informed by the Postmaster-General that where an unregistered letter is found to contain inter alia any bank note or currency note of a 'value of 10s. or over, the Inland Post Warrant 1923 provides that the letter shall be compulsorily registered and the ordinary registration fee charged. This regulation applies to all letters irrespective of their contents.
    Mr. LOGAN: Will post-dated cheques be confiscated?
    Sir W. DAVISON: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this charge of 3d. is a fine inflicted on an individual for doing a legal action? What is his statutory authority for fining a person 3d. for doing something which he is entitled to do?
    Sir JOHN HASLAM: Does my right hon. Friend not think that the authorities are doing a public service in returning the 10s.?
    HON. MEMBERS: No!

    STREET COLLECTIONS (ADVISORY COMMITTEE).
    Mr. LECKIEasked the Home Secretary whether he will give the names of the members of the Street Collections Advisory Committee?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I will circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the information:
    The members of the Street Collections Advisory Commitee are as follow:

    Colonel the Hon. Maurice Drummond, C.M.G., D.S.O., Assistant Commissioner of Metropolitan Police, Chairman.

    Captain J. A. Davison, M.C., Assistant Commissioner, City of London Police.

    B. E. Astbury, Esq., Charity Organisation Society.

    E. A. Godson, Esq., M.C., London Mendicity Society.

    Sir William Hamer, M.D., F.R.C.P., London Council of Social Service.

    Alderman H. V: Kenyon, M.B.E., J.P., Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee.

    F. G. Rudler, Esq. J.P., Metropolitan Mayors' Association.

    Lieut.-Colonel Sir George Handover, O.B.E., D.L., J.P., Metropolitan Mayors' Association.

    Alderman F. C. Clark, Middlesex Borough and District Councils' Association.

    Alderman A. W. Hickmott, Association of Municipal Corporations.

    John A. Simpson, Esq., LL.B., Urban District Councils' Association.

    Sir Philip Henriques, K.B.E., County Councils' Association.

  EDUCATION.

    PROPOSED NURSERY SCHOOLS, CASTLEFORD AND RAWMARSH.
    Mr. G. GRIFFITHSasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether he has given approval to the West Riding County Council to proceed with the building of a nursery school at Castleford and at Rawmarsh; and, if not, when will he issue his approval?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Ramsbotham): The Board have approved in principle the proposed erection of a nursery school at Castleford. Preliminary plans have been approved and the Board are awaiting the receipt of complete plans from the local education authority. A proposal to provide a nursery school at Rawmarsh is included in the local education authority's programme for 1935–36, but no definite application for approval has been received.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Will the Parliamentary Secretary see that when these nursery schools are started there are properly qualified women in charge?

  AVIATION.

    PILOTS (TRAINING).
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he proposes to establish any flying school for training pilots who have retired from the Fleet Air Arm?
    Sir VICTOR WARRENDER (Vice-Chamberlain of the Household): I have been asked to reply. My hon. Friend presumably has in mind officers who have retired from the Royal Navy after attachment to the Royal Air Force for service with the Fleet Air Arm. Such officers, if of appropriate age, are eligible to join the Royal Air Force Reserve and are trained under the normal reserve arrangements.

    AIR SERVICES (DONCASTER AND THE CONTINENT).
    Mr. THORNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he has received a communication from the Doncaster Corporation Aerodrome Committee, with regard to an air service being started between Doncaster and the

    1751
    Continent; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
    Sir V. WARRENDER: No such communication from the aerodrome committee has been received in the Air Ministry, but it is understood that there have been some discussions between the corporation's aerodrome committee and the Dutch company which operates the Amsterdam-Hull-Liverpool service in the summer. No action by the Air Ministry appears to be called for, at any rate at present.
    Brigadier-General NATION: May I ask whether the Under-Secretary will take into consideration the fact that the line operating between Hull and Amsterdam will be in close competition with the one now proposed, and that if there are two lines in close conjunction it may result in detriment to both?

    ARMAMENTS MANUFACTURE (INTERNATIONAL INSPECTION).
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the amendments of the British Government to the proposals of the United States of America Government at the Traffic in Arms Commission at Geneva have now been handed in there; whether they can be made available to Members of the House; and whether the Government are prepared to consider the advisability of withdrawing their objection to international inspection of armament factories?
    The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. Eden): The amendments which the United Kingdom delegation are proposing, together with amendments by other delegations, are being submitted to the appropriate sub-committees which the full committee has appointed. The meetings of these sub-committees are by general agreement being held in private, and their proceedings, including the amendments handed in by the different delegations, are not therefore public documents. In any event I doubt whether these amendments would be intelligible as they stand, without the oral explanations by which they will be accompanied. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington East (Miss Cazalet) yesterday.
    Mr. MANDER: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    PRIVATELY-OWNED LAND (VALUE).
    Mr. JAMES DUNCANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the value of land in private ownership in Great Britain?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I regret that the information for which my hon. Friend asks is not available.
    Mr. DUNCAN: Is it not possible to make an estimate of the cost which one instalment of the Socialist policy may involve?
    HON. MEMBERS: Get hold of the Yellow Book.

    PENSIONS.
    Mr. KENNETH LINDSAYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many pensions schemes provided by private firms for their employés have been approved under the Finance Act, 1921; and whether he has any information as to how many employés, staff or otherwise, are covered by such schemes?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: At the 30th September, 1934, the pension schemes approved under Section 32 of the Finance Act, 1921, numbered 1,641, but I regret I am unable to say how many of these schemes were provided by private firms as distinct from companies, or how many employés are covered by the schemes.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: Will that figure cover co-operative societies and trade unions
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I should think that it would cover co-operative societies.
    Mr. G. GRIFFITHS: May I ask whether it covers pit pensions which are financed entirely by the workmen and not by the employers?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Obviously not in view of the terms of the question.
    Mr. LINDSAYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many

    1753
    public servants are at present in pensionable employment in each of the Government services, including the teaching profession, the Post Office, and local government service?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As the answer includes a number of figures I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. LINDSAY: In view of the fact that a large number—nearly 2,000 firms—of progressive employers have inaugurated pension schemes, including a number of trade unions and also Government Departments, will my right hon. Friend reconsider his decision as to the necessity for a departmental inquiry in order to get at the facts which are so difficult to obtain?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I will consider it.
    Following is the reply:
    The numbers of persons in pensionable employment in the Civil Service on the 1st April, 1934, the latest date for which figures are available, were approximately as follow:

    Non-Industrial

    Industrial

    Post office

    133,000

    19,000

    Other Departments

    88,000

    12,000

    In the Defence Services the numbers of uniformed personnel in pensionable service are at present as follow:

    Navy

    …

    …

    …

    37,000

    Army

    …

    …

    …

    39,000

    …

    …

    …

    Air Force

    8,000

    I regret that similar information as regards local government service and the teaching profession is not available.

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
    Mr. SUTCLIFFEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the effect of the entertainments duty upon amateur dramatic societies, which in many cases are in financial difficulties because this tax is absorbing all the profits which would otherwise have gone to charity; and whether he will consider abandoning the tax in regard to these societies as he has done in regard to societies existing to promote interest in music?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension in assuming that the entertainments duty has been abandoned in regard to societies existing to promote interest in music, but I presume that he has in mind the provision governing exemption from this duty on partly educational grounds under which performances given by a number of musical societies and amateur dramatic societies have recently qualified for exemption. The statutory condition governing this exemption is that the entertainment must be provided for partly educational purposes by a society, institution or committee not conducted or established for profit. Where this condition is fulfilled exemption is allowed irrespective of the character of the society, and no distinction is drawn between amateur dramatic societies and musical societies in this respect.
    Mr. SUTCLIFFEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the recently formed Crompton Stage Society, which voluntarily produces plays of educational value at cheap prices and the profits of which will go to charity, was charged £14 in respect of Customs and Excise in advance of its first production, and that, as a result of this and subsequent payments, no amount has yet been available for charity and the society is heavily in debt, and will in all probability have to close down; and whether he will take steps to prevent the incidence of this tax reacting upon the valuable work done by numerous dramatic societies throughout the country?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware that in the case of a recent performance by the society mentioned the statutory conditions governing the grant of exemption from entertainments duty were not fulfilled and that duty therefore had to be paid; with regard to the second part of the question, I do not consider that a case for legislation is established.
    Mr. SUTCLIFFE: Will my right hon. Friend hear these societies in mind when he comes to remodel the entertainments duty in accordance with what he said about a year ago?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I will consider all the relevant circumstances.

    MEDALS AND DISCS (AUTOMATIC MACHINES).
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that medals and discs issued for sale or distribution to the public are in some cases exactly the same size as coins required for use in automatic machines; and whether he will take steps to prevent the distribution throughout the country of large numbers of these discs, in view of their improper use?
    Mr. COOPER: Some complaints to this effect have been received, and I am consulting the Departments concerned with a view to seeing if any new preventive measures can be taken.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the people who own these automatic machines "do" the public just as frequently as the public "do" them?

    DARTON TOWNSHIP (STATISTICS).
    Mr. G. GRIFFITHSasked the Minister of Health the number of the population and the rateable value in the township of Darton, near Barnsley, for the years 1930 and 1934, or the latest available dates?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The population of the twonship of Darton, which forms part of the urban district of Darton, was 7,346 according to the census of 1931. Later figures of population are not available. According to the valuation lists in force on 1st April, 1930, the rateable value of the township was £16,926. The corresponding amount in 1934 was £18,331.

    HOUSING (SLUM CLEARANCE, BIRMINGHAM).
    Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKEasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that, in accordance with the sanction of his Department, a part of Glover Street, in the city of Birmingham, has been scheduled as a slum-clearance area, and that a number of houses have been demolished and the tenants turned out; and whether, as this area is now waste land, he will take steps to secure the immediate erection on the site of suitable houses or maisonettes for the people's use to be near their work, in accordance
    1756
    with the undertaking given when the order was made?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, tenders for the erection of 26 maisonettes on this site have now been submitted to my right hon. Friend and were approved yesterday.

    TIN REGULATION SCHEME.
    Major NATHANasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies by what legislative enactments or administrative orders the Governments of Malaya and Nigeria impose restrictions upon tin producers within their respective jurisdictions in order to enable such Governments to fulfil the engagements taken by them in the agreement comprising the tin regulation scheme?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): There are a number of enactments and rules in the various territories. The effect of these enactments and rules is to apply the scheme set out in the White Paper in the territories. If the hon. Member desires, I will send him a list of the enactments and rules.
    Major NATHANasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies which members of the advisory committee to the international tin committee are themselves participants in, or directors of companies which are participants in, the private tin pool?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI would refer the hon. Member to the answers which I gave him on 27th February. As I stated on that occasion, I was sure the House would appreciate that if private interests disclose to the international tin committee, or its chairman, their holdings in tin in order that this information, given in confidence, may be at the disposal of the committee, it would be most improper of me to make that information public even if I possessed it.
    Major NATHAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us, not the amount of the participation but the fact of the participation of particular members of the advisory committee in the tin pool?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Most certainly not. I am in the recollection of the House in the answers which I have given, and I think the whole House will agree that, while it is quite proper that persons who have private interests and who are acting in an advisory capacity should disclose those interests to the people whom they are invited to advise, it would make things impossible if this information, given in confidence, were to be stated in answer to fishing inquiries in the House.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: Is it not the case that this series of questions is calculated to bring about instability in the price of tin and therefore to facilitate the work of speculators?
    Major NATHAN: Further arising out of the right hon. Gentleman's reply to me, may I ask him, in view of the fact that he has already informed the House that certain members of the advisory committee are interested in the tin pool, to inform the House which members are so interested.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think the House has fully appreciated the answer which I have given. I have no intention, as I have said, of disclosing, in answer to fishing inquiries, information given in confidence to a committee.
    Mr. McENTEE: If those who are called upon to advise in this matter are themselves holders, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that that fact would influence their advice?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir. No change has taken place in the character of the advisory committee since the Labour Government instituted it, with the exception that the consumers, the manufacturers, are now represented. Of course, if you wish to have technical advice in a matter of this kind, you must have people who know about the industry, and it is quite proper that people who have interests should disclose their interests to the committee whom they advise. But it would be utterly improper, as I think the House will agree, that I should be asked to disclose that information in this House, even if I had it.
    Major NATHANasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the names of the members of the special committee charged with the management or control
    1758
    of the governmental buffer pool in tin and whom they represent thereon.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: As I understand that the composition of the Buffer Stock Committee has not been published, I do not think I can give the names of the representatives of foreign Governments, as that is a matter for the Governments concerned. The Malayan delegation appointed Sir John Campbell to represent the Malay States; the Nigerian delegation appointed Mr. J. Howeson to represent Nigeria. I am informed by the chairman of the International Tin Committee that Mr. Howeson expressed his desire that another person should be appointed in his place to represent Nigeria on the committee, before the Buffer Stock Committee engaged in any operations, as, although the Buffer Stock Committee must act in accordance with instructions given by the International Tin Committee, he felt there might be a possibility of some apparent conflict of interest between the buffer stock and undertakings in which he had an interest. The chairman informs me that the Nigerian delegation propose to accept this suggestion, and to appoint another representative.
    Major NATHAN: May I ask if Mr. Howeson is still a member and if he retains his place on the Buffer Pool Committee?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Before any operations are engaged in by that committee, I understand the Nigerian delegation propose to appoint another member. There has, I think, been no meeting of the committee.

    PALESTINE.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to outbreaks of new anti-Jewish agitation in Palestine; and whether he will inquire and give the House information as to this?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: It is a matter of public knowledge that Arab opposition to Jewish immigration into Palestine and the purchase of land by Jews is at present being ventilated freely

    1759
    in the Arab Press of Palestine. On the 1st December last the High Commissioner received a deputation from the Arab Executive, who presented a memorandum concerning the sale of Arab lands and Jewish immigration. The High Commissioner, in a reply which was published, stated plainly the policy of the Government in relation to these matters. That policy is well-known, and I am sure the House has complete confidence that the High Commissioner will carry it out fairly. I do not think that any particular inquiry is called for.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are we to take it from that answer that the right hon. Gentleman has not heard of any new agitation recently; and may I ask whether it is a fact that the ex-Khedive of Egypt is buying land in Palestine or in Trans-Jordan, as he is no friend of this country? May I also ask whether the right hon. Gentleman reads regularly the confidential reports of the defence force in Palestine which are sent to him? I do not know what is in them, but I should be more satisfied if I thought that they were read by the right hon. Gentleman.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am afraid that I have no knowledge of the purchase of land or anything else by the ex-Khedive. I think that I read all relevant reports. I cannot say that I read every report, but my attention is drawn to anything of particular interest, and I receive very regular and full reports from the High Commissioner.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am speaking of confidential reports of the defence force, which would not naturally go to his department.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am sure that my department receives anything that is relevant to the administration of Palestine, whether it is in regard to the defence force or anything else.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: Will effective steps soon be taken to stop illegal immigration which is the principal cause of the trouble?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the Lord President of the Council the business for Friday?
The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Mr. Baldwin): The business for Friday will be: Second Reading of the Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) Bill; Report stage of the Supplementary Estimates which were considered in Committee on the 25th February and the 1st March; Third Reading of the Post Office Telegraph (Money) Bill; and, if there is time, other Orders on the Paper.

BILLS REPORTED.

  POST OFFICE (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 41.]

  INCREASE OF RENT AND MORTGAGE INTEREST (RESTRICTIONS) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments [Title amended], from Standing Committee C.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 42.]

  REGIMENTAL CHARITABLE FUNDS BILL [Lords].
  Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 43.]
  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1935.
  Copy presented,—of Statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty explanatory of the Estimates [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
  Considered in Committee [SIXTH DAY—Progress 28th February].
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
  3.45 p.m.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I beg to move,
  "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  I desire to put a question to the Secretary of State and to offer him an opportunity of giving some information to the Committee. I quoted the other night some extracts from speeches alleged to have been made in the Assembly of the Princes at Bombay, which seemed to show how wide, various, vital and fundamental were the amendments which they would require in the Government of India Bill. The Secretary of State had then no knowledge of what had occurred, but I wish to know whether, in what is practically a week since then, he has been able to obtain and is able to give us further information about the discussion which took place, whether those extracts were accurate, and whether he can tell us anything about the consequential effects which they will necessarily have on the Bill.
  I see in the "Morning Post" to-day verbatim reports of speeches by Sir Akbar Hydari and Sir Ramaswami Aiyar which certainly disclose differences with the Government which, if they are to be met, will entail a complete remodelling of the Bill. They already affect Clauses 2, 6 and 8, and we have dealt with them. Unless entirely new information is forthcoming, a case is disclosed for a motion to recommit the Bill in respect of these Clauses, because it is perfectly clear that, if they stand in the form in which they have been passed by the Committee, the Princes will not accept the Bill. Then, according to the arguments of the Government, it is impossible that their scheme can go forward; that is the Government's case. I do not know how many Members have read the report which appears in the "Morning Post" to-day. It seems to me that there ought to be an official report in matters of this kind which become public in this country. Whether they should become public is another matter, but they have become
  1774
  public, and we are bound to judge the facts as they are presented to us. Anyone who has not read these two columns in the "Morning Post" should really do so without the slightest delay, because it is essential to an appreciation of all the matters which are under discussion. Anyone who has read them will see what a serious position we are in. Take the Clause we are now discussing, Clause 12. Sir Akbar Hydari says:
  "Then there are Clauses 12 and 127, by virtue of which the Governor-General eau at any time really interfere in the internal administration of your States on the ground that you are not doing your federal duties."
  That is what he is reported to have said. Did he say that? Is this an authentic speech, or is it invented from beginning to end If it be true, then this is a most grave and serious matter. Perhaps the Government are not ready to answer to-day, but they should fix a day in the near future when they will be able to tell us what are the differences between them and the Princes on this Bill, what are the Amendments for which the Princes are asking, and whether, and if so to what extent, they are able to meet those differences. Otherwise, are we not simply wasting our time I Are we not debating the whole Measure upon a false footing? I am advised that the Princes require vital and specific amendments to Clauses 2, 6 and 8, Clause 12— that is the Clause before us this afternoon—paragraphs (a) and (g), Clauses 45, 99, 127, 145, 147 and 156.
  Where do we stand? Where do the Government stand? I have no doubt that we can arrive at a perfectly amicable arrangement, because anyone can see the difficulty in which the Government have been placed. To use the words of the "Statesman," that friendly newspaper that always supported them, they have been "duped and misled." Those are the words of the" Statesman." But that may not be the fault of the Government. It is certainly their misfortune, and we have to be careful that it does not become our misfortune. It seems to me that a new situation has arisen, and that the Government should make a comprehensive statement. If these facts are true, they should tell us how they propose to deal with the situation; and if they are not true they should relieve the anxiety of their followers upon the matter at the earliest moment. I am sure it will

  1775
  be much more simple to deal with this Bill when we know where we are. The Secretary of State said that it was desirable that we should know where we are at the earliest moment. When we know exactly what it is that the Bill is going to be we shall be able to give our attention to it. Meanwhile, I await with the customary respect, and even unusual interest, the answer which I invite from my right hon. Friend.
  3.54 p.m.
  Mr. ISAAC FOOT: May I put a question before the right hon. Gentleman replies 2 When he replies, can he give us any information as to the circumstances in which the debate by the Princes was carried on, and whether his attention has been drawn to the statement made by Sir Ramaswami Aiyar, appearing in the Press on Saturday, that no shorthand note was taken of the debate whatever, and that there was an agreement, before the discussion commenced, that the proceedings should be utterly and completely confidential; and that only the resolutions should be published. How was it in these circumstances that, on the day following the meeting, a part of the debate was purported to be quoted in this House by the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill)?
  3.55 p.m.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Sir Samuel Hoare): My right hon. Friend has given me no notice of this question, though I do not in the least demur to that. I welcome, indeed, the opportunity of giving the Committee an immediate answer. Moreover, my right hon. Friend has made the speech he has just delivered three times, and I have given him three answers. I will now give him a fourth answer. I have received by air mail during the weekend a statement from the Princes' Ministers as to the points under discussion. My advisers and I carefully investigated those points, and I can tell my right hon. Friend at once that that careful investigation confirms me in the view which I have stated three times in the course of these Debates, and once at some length a week ago, that all of them can be adjusted. They confirm in every respect the account which I gave when my right hon. Friend moved the adjournment of
  1776
  the Committee a week ago. He gave the impression in his speech just now that he had discovered a long list of points at issue between the Princes and ourselves. I do not think he can have followed carefully what I said in answer to him a week ago. He will find, if he looks at my answer, that I set out almost detail by detail the points that he has just elaborated. Those are the points under discussion. I gave them to the Committee a week ago, and the Committee then, by an overwhelming majority, took the view that there was no reason why the discussion of those points should delay the further consideration of the Bill. The position to-day is exactly what it was a week ago, with this possible exception, that I have this confirmatory document from the Princes' representatives confirming—yes, I can say confirming in every respect the account that I gave to the House a week ago. My right hon. Friend seems delighted at his discovery in one of the journals to-day of what two of the Princes' representatives are supposed to have said at the Princes' meeting. The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) is quite correct in saying that that was a private meeting. No shorthand note was taken at that meeting.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I say that is directly contradicted.
  Sir S. HOARE: Where?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: In the "Morning Post."
  Sir S. HOARE: I think I cannot do better than read the statements that have actually been made by the two Ministers whose speeches are supposed to have been reported in the "Morning Post" this morning. Here is Sir It. Ramaswami Aiyar:—
  "Madras, 1st March. Accounts published in London of speeches by certain Princes and Ministers at the important secret meeting earlier this week in Bombay in which the India Bill was discussed were referred to by Sir Ramaswami Aiyar, one of those present, in an interview here today. I have noticed,' he said, that Mr. Churchill, in the House of Commons, purports to quote some remarks alleged to have been made by me and others. All I can say is, speaking for myself, that our speeches were, to my knowledge, not taken down in shorthand, and the proceedings, as apart from the resolutions, were

  1777
  agreed by everyone to be treated as strictly confidential. In these circumstances I am surprised at the so-called quotations made by Mr. Churchill in -the House of Commons.'"
  I come now to Sir Akbar Hydari:
  "My speech at the confidential States meeting on Monday was entirely extempore, and I have neither passed nor even seen any record of it. Mr. Churchill's quotations have not been wired here, but I can emphatically deny the truth of any report which represents me as having been opposed to federation at that meeting or in the Ministers' meetings. On the contrary, I concluded my speech with emphatic and unequivocal remarks to this effect, that I was from the very beginning, and continued to be, a strong federationist, and if there were certain provisions in the present Bill that were not acceptable to us, I would press and press again upon the Government here and in England for their satisfactory amendment, so that Federation may materialise on the lines which we fully believed had already been agreed at the previous conferences and discussions. You can make use of this statement."
  That, certainly, does not appear to be the statement of one of the Princes' representatives who regards the gulf between us and the Princes as being unbridgeable. It is obviously the statement of a man than whom none is better able to speak on the question of Indian Federation, the representative of the greatest State in India, the man who has taken a closer interest in All-India. Federation than, probably, almost any Indian. It does not appear to be the statement of a man who does not regard the differences at issue as adjustable.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will tell us—perhaps he is going to deal with the point—whether the verbatim reports which appeared in the "Morning Post" are authentic or not?
  Sir S. HOARE: I do not know so much as my right hon. Friend. He seems to know a great deal about this.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I know what I read in the newspapers.
  Sir S. HOARE: Perhaps he can give us some further information on the subject.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Has my right hon. Friend read them?
  Sir S. HOARE: I have. I know no more than my right hon. Friend; in fact, I am under the impression that I know a great deal less.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I have no knowledge at all except what appears in the public Press—none whatever. I was favoured with an advance copy the night before of what was to be published the next morning. I have no other knowledge at all. But here are verbatim reports of two columns' length in the greatest detail, and it seems inconceivable that they could have been fabricated or invented. I want to know whether they are true or not. If they are true, then the modest disclaimer to help the Government out of their difficulty and the Minister round the corner, has absolutely no relevance to the importance of the case disclosed.
  Sir S. HOARE: There is no question of helping the Secretary of State round the corner or getting the Government out of their difficulty. It is the comment of the two men who have been quoted in the "Morning Post" as to what actually took place. I would have thought that they are much -better qualified to give an, accurate version of what took place than anybody else. Let us assume, to please my right hon. Friend, that these reports are accurate.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Hear, hear!
  Sir S. HOARE: The right hon. Gentleman is delighted about that.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I did not say whether I was delighted or not.
  Sir S. HOARE: I gathered from the expression on my right hon. Friend's face that he generally agreed. Anyhow, let us assume that they are accurate. That does not in the least alter the position I explained a week ago. They set out, detail by detail, the very points of which I informed the Committee a week ago, and with the general approval of the great majority of the Committee I stated that they were points which could be adjusted. I still maintain that position, and when we come to the Clauses in which these points occur, I can explain the position to the Committee. As to the earlier Clauses, amendments may or may not he necessary as a result of our further discussions, but I do not at all accept the view that even if we adjusted all these details—and I hope we shall adjust them—it would be necessary to remodel the Bill. My whole position is that they are points which can and ought to be adjusted within the frame

  1779
  work of the Bill, and I have every hope that during the course of these discussions I shall be able to prove that to the Committee.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question as to whether at this meeting of the Princes in Bombay the speeches were taken down in shorthand or not? There appears to be a direct conflict of testimony. The two Ministers he has quoted say that their speeches were not taken down. Some explanation is usually forthcoming in a case of discrepancy of that kind. Will the right hon. Gentleman also say whether these transcripts have been forwarded to the Viceroy? Surely he can inquire of the Viceroy whether it is true that 'he has received a, report of what happened; and, if so, surely he can lay it before the House later on?
  Sir S. HOARE: I will certainly inquire of the Viceroy, but I will tell my right hon. Friend now that, so far as my present information goes, no transcript was taken, and no transcript was sent to the Viceroy, but, as I say, I have no official knowledge of what actually happened at a meeting which was confidential and private. I will make further inquiries, but, as I say, according to the information at present at my disposal, I, believe I am right and my right hon. Friend is wrong.
  4.7 p.m.
  Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: May I point out to the Secretary of State that what he has said to the Committee is a direct confirmation of the statement made in this morning's paper, because it is quite true that Sir Akbar Hydari, after saying in this speech that his objections were fundamental and referring to Clause 6 as an appalling Clause, or some such word, and he could not imagine how it could have been inserted in the Bill, he ends up quite a long speech by saying that he is still most desirous of having federation, and that he hopes the Government will see reason, and will remove these Clauses from the Bill, or entirely alter their effect. What the Secretary of State has said seems to me to confirm, on the face of it, what is reported in the paper which I have in my hand. We are not here discussing whether the "Morning Post" was entitled to publish this report or not, or whether it got it by illicit
  1780
  means. What the House is anxious to know is, are the statements correct or incorrect?
  As a, back bencher, I venture to suggest to the powers-that-be that the House is being placed in a very anomalous, and, I would almost say, farcical position in discussing these important Clauses before we know Whether the Princes are going to accept them in this form or not. We were told that federation would never have been suggested had not the Princes agreed to come in. If that is so, surely we want to know before going on with this Bill what are the fundamental conditions in the present Bill to which the Princes object, and what are the terms in which they are coming in. Otherwise this procedure is being reduced to an absurdity. We ought to know what conditions the Princes lay down. We are told that Clauses 6 and 12 are quite impossible for them to consider without fundamental alterations, and we ought to know what are the fundamental alterations which the Princes demand.
  4.10 p.m.
  Mr. ATTLEE: We are going to be placed, I think, in a very great difficulty if after, as I understood, we all came to a decision with regard to the discussion of this Bill, we are to have a Motion to report Progress in order to discuss what appears in the "Morning Post." I am not aware, of what appears in the "Morning Post," but I think we have had quite enough already about discussions in party meetings and party newspapers. I think it is an abuse of the practice of the House for the right hon. Gentleman to get up and again make, as I understand he has done several times already, a speech on a particular point. If so, we had better face the fact that the idea of carrying on the discussion so that various points of view can be put forward, is being entirely destroyed. There are several important points which my hon. Friends and I wish to put forward, but, if this kind of thing goes on, the whole arrangement will break down.
  4.11 p.m.
  Mr. ISAAC FOOT: I only want to ask that the House shall at least have justice done to it in this respect. On Thursday last the right hon. Gentleman quoted from certain typewritten papers. He quoted what were supposed to be

  1781
  statements made in the course of the Princes' meeting. That information was not then in the possession of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State. We have heard since from two of the Princes, or at least two Princes' representatives who were then quoted, that they gave no authority for the publication of those statements, and, in fact, they made an express disclaimer. I thought when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) rose to-day, he was rising to apologise to the Committee for occupying the time of the Committee with statements which should never have been issued, except as a result of a breach of faith on someone's part. It is quite clear, and it is stated in terms by Mr. Akbar Hydari and Sir Ramaswami Aiyar, that no shorthand notes were taken. Sir Akbar Hydari spoke extempore, and, apparently, they objected to statements being made on the Floor of this House which were directly attributed to them by the right hon. Gentleman. If he has these subterranean methods of communication with India, or any methods of communication—I will withdraw the word "subterranean"—I think it was his duty to-day to explain to the Committee why they had been misled in listening to speeches behind which there was no authority. Surely he, above all people, will recognise the difficulty of discussing any statements unless they are authorised. He himself has written to the "Times" to-day showing that the mere mistake—and very natural mistake—of using the word "study" instead of the word "state" reduces his statement to the House of Commons, in his own words, to nonsense. If such a mistake can be made here, surely he will see what difficulty there may be in a conflict arising out of reports which are repudiated by those to whom he has attributed them. Instead of occupying the time of the Committee with this further Motion, I think the best thing that he can do is to apologise for having misled the Committee, and promise that in future he will deal with the relevant questions which are before them.
  4.14 p.m.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: If I had misled the Committee, wittingly or unwittingly, I should certainly make my disclaimer and apologise, but I have done nothing of the sort. I quoted certain extracts
  1782
  which were placed in my hands. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] They were given to me by the "Morning Post," and were to appear in the paper next morning. They appeared to be authentic and to be highly relevant to the particular Clause, and I thought at the time that I was not only justified in bringing them to the attention of the Committee, but was bound to do so. I do say, and, in fact, after a week has passed, it is found that these extracts are accurate and authentic. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If the hon. Gentleman would read the repeated—the alleged—speeches, he would see that they bear the mark of genuineness and authenticity in every line. All that I have to ask is that the Government should say whether these speeches are authentic or not. The hon. Gentleman argued just now as though he did not care what was the truth. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Well, he argued as though he did not wish this point pressed as to whether these grave matters have in fact been said by the important Indian ministers to whom I have referred. We ought to know the truth. What are we debating here for, unless to find out the truth and to place our debates on a fair and reasonable basis?
  I am far from having reached the end of this matter, and I hope and trust that when the report is in due course received by the Viceroy, to whom I am informed it has been sent, the right hon. Gentleman will endeavour to lay the facts before the Committee in a White Paper. Until he does, or until he contradicts this matter in the same definite manner in which the speeches are repudiated and we know exactly in what terms they are repudiated and what lines and what paragraphs are inaccurate, I shall accept them as accurate and true and shall argue upon that basis. I hope and trust that the right hon. Gentleman will endeavour to place the Committee at an early date upon that reasonable basis.
  The hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) has been indisposed for the last 10 days. I am sorry if one of the symptoms of what we now see is a happy convalescence should be bad temper. If the hon. Gentleman had been fortunate enough to enjoy his usual health and to be present at the Debates he would have seen how admirably they

  1783
  had been conducted, how sensible has been the feeling on every side that there was no obstruction, and also how admirably his colleagues have filled his place in his absence. He would then not have gone out of his way, on no information, and not having been in touch with the Committee and its work, to deliver such a very striking and dictatorial lecture !to me. How much time has been taken up? Half-an-hour has been occupied in raising these extremely important matters, which he will find will be examined and reported in all parts of the country, and very much more than some of the orations with which the hon. Gentleman will presently favour us.
  4.17 p.m.
  Mr. ANNESLEY SOMERVILLE: On a point of Order. In the cablegram which has been read from Sir Akbar Hydari there was the statement that certain paragraphs in the Bill were not acceptable to the Princes. I suggest that we ought to know what those paragraphs are.
  Sir S. HOARE: I had already stated them.
  The CHAIRMAN: Let me deal with a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) moved to report Progress on grounds which I thought were quite sufficient and something quite different from the grounds or the continuation of the grounds upon which he moved a similar Motion about a week ago. That Motion was made and decided upon, and therefore there are two reasons why certain arguments are outside the present discussion, one is that the discussion should not merely be a repetition and the other is that it must not deal with a matter which has already been decided by the Committee.
  Mr. SOMERVILLE: The position is altered, because the Secretary of State has received cablegrams from certain ministers to the Princes. Is it not in order to put a question to him in regard to those cablegrams? The question I was going to put is whether the Secretary of State knows the provisions mentioned by Sir Akbar Hydari, whether they are important or whether they are minor points capable of adjustment. In
  1784
  any case, I submit that it will be only fair—
  The CHAIRMAN: That is the exact question debated a week ago.
  4.20 p.m.
  Mr. MAXTON: I do not want to take up time on this matter because, with the other parties to the agreement, I agreed to facilitate the passage of this Measure. I am not so impressed by what the Princes do or do not think; that will not influence the least little bit my judgment on the various Clauses of the Bill. Indeed, the things to which they object most would be those which I would be most inclined to do. The point I wish to raise with the Secretary of State—and I put this as a Member of the Committee—is how it comes about that on the last occasion when there was a Motion to report Progress, and again to-day, he, as Secretary of State for India, seems to be less well-informed upon what has actually happened upon the spot in matters vitally affecting the legislation which this Committee are discussing? He seems to be less well-informed and always some days behind an unofficial Member of the House, of great importance and with great influence in this House, who is showing a very active interest in the matter, yet not holding office and without the means of communication that are available to the Secretary of State, and without responsible officers on the spot such as are available to the right hon. Gentleman. His information, as he has told us, comes through a perfectly legitimate, if not very reputable channel, the "Morning Post." I want to ask the Secretary of State for India why it is, when we are honestly trying to use our judgment on this Measure, that we who are not tied to a mere voting machine but are willing to listen to the discussion of each issue and cast our votes as we are persuaded the greater amount of justice and common sense lies, cannot get from the Secretary of State on the day when the matter comes before the House, authentic and definite information as to what has been done by people who are actively concerned in the matter in India.
  Is there something wrong with his staff? Has he not men on the spot, or was this meeting of the Indian Princes not a matter of sufficient concern for him to

  1785
  take the step in reference to it that was taken by an English daily journal? If a group of Indian strikers in Bombay or Calcutta were holding a meeting, even though it were in secret, the Secretary of State for India, as we have had experience, would have knowledge of the matter. He can get right into the innermost secrets of trade union gatherings or gatherings of revolutionary agitators, but when it comes—
  The CHAIRMAN: I would remind the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) of the very strict rule that when this Motion has been made the Debate must be strictly limited to the Motion.
  Mr. MAXTON: I am sorry. The simple point that I was making—I conclude on it—is that we have had ample proof in our work that the Secretary of State for India is not devoid of means of getting exact information when he desires to get it. Why is it that such information is not available on this matter at the time when Members of the Committee can make use of it?
  4.25 p.m.
  Sir S. HOARE: I respond at once to the question of the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton). There are some things that the Secretary of State cannot do. One thing he cannot do is to break confidence. This was a confidential meeting. I had no means of breaking into that privacy even if I had wished to do so. I can only deal with authorised information when it comes to me, and I am dealing with authorised information. I have had the authorised statement of the Princes' ministers and, as I said just now, I am dealing with it. If the Princes themselves communicate further with the Viceroy I shall deal with that communication. One thing that the Secretary of State cannot do is to deal with unauthorised information of this kind, and I do not believe that the hon. Member for Bridgeton would expect me to do so.
  4.26 p.m.
  Duchess of ATHOLL: May I ask the Secretary of State whether he does not see a considerable similarity between the report which he has read to us and what Sir Akbar Hydari says in the report published in the "Morning Post"? Might not what he read be a report watered down for public consumption of a much
  1786
  franker statement made at the meeting? Secondly, can the Secretary of State find in the statement which he read from Sir Ramaswami Aiyar any denial of this speech as reported in the "Morning Post"? I can find none. I have heard the extract which the right hon. Gentleman has read, and I read it carefully when it was published in the "Morning Post." I can find no denial—no statement whatever that he did not make the statements attributed to him, but merely that he understood that there was no reporter present. That is not enough.
  4.27 p.m.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I am going to ask leave to withdraw my Motion. I think this discussion has shown the usefulness of this procedure in bringing important matters into Parliamentary discussion. May I in doing so suggest to the Secretary of State a perfectly simple course that he can take. I suggest that he should take this good advice; when the English newspapers, or some of them, contain long reports purporting to be verbatim accounts of speeches delivered at this confidential meeting, those reports, if they are not true, should be contradicted, and if they are true he should decide whether it is not desirable that the whole of the proceedings should be published, or at any rate than an official report of the proceedings should be made and communicated to the Viceroy. The Secretary of State is in touch with the Princes; he should put this to them and point out that some of their confidential matters had been disclosed apparently and that it is desirable that we should have fuller information on the matter for Parliament.
  Sir S. HOARE: I am not prepared, so long as I am in this office, to have my telegrams to the Viceroy drafted for me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). I have placed this matter frankly before the Committee, and I have nothing to add to what I said.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: In spite of the refusal of the right hon. Gentleman to clear this matter up in any way, or to elicit more information which might be unwelcome to him, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.

    CLAUSE 12.—(Special responsibilities of Governor-General.)
    4.29 p.m.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: I beg to move, in page 8, line 9, to leave out paragraph (b).
    The Committee should examine the effect of the several special responsibilities which the Clause contains. We are dealing with the Federal Executive in these Clauses, and we find that executive power is limited and modified by special responsibilities on specific matters. We have heard a great deal during the debate in Committee about the list of subjects to which the Instrument of Accession do or do not apply, and there are a large number of special subjects for legislation by the Federal Government. We find many references to finance and that so far as federal finance is concerned the final authority rests not with the Federal Executive, not with the Federal Legislature but with the Governor-General in his own person. We find in Sub-section (2) that:
    "If and in so far as any special responsibility of the Governor-General is involved, he shall, in the exercise of his functions, exercise his individual judgment as to the action to be taken."
    In this very important matter of the safeguarding of the financial stability and credit of the Federal Government, the Governor-General is the supreme authority. It is very difficulty to say how far the Federal Government has any real power if the Governor-General has the right to withdraw from their control a matter of such great importance as the protection of the financial credit of the Government. We have heard a great deal about responsibility at the Centre. We claim that responsibility should be placed at the centre of the Federal Government. The Federal Government consists of the Princes, the Rulers of Indian States, and representatives of provincial bodies.
    I heard the quotation from the "Morning Post," which has occupied the time of the Committee, but I did not carefully follow the position attributed to the Princes on this point. It is certain, however, that the Princes have made special objections to paragraphs (a) and (g) of this Clause. It is difficult to understand how the Princes, having raised those particular points, could have omitted to object to paragraph (b), be
    1788
    cause without responsibility and authority in matters of finance there is no self-government in the real sense. There is no power. Power resides in the control of finance in India as in this country. The executive body of the Government in this country has authority because it controls public finance. Without that control it would have no authority; all the authority would rest with the Crown, and this House of Commons and Parliament would have no power.
    We find that the Federal Government in India is to be denied the authority which gives real power to this House of Commons and to representative assemblies in all parts of the world. I am not able to follow all the details of the finance involved in the Bill, but I have read Clause 134 and the following Clauses, laying down the machinery for the regulation of federal revenues, the collection of federal revenues and for exercising control over federal expenditure, but I do not know exactly the conditions under which the Governor-General is to exercise his special responsibility. I have read his speeches, I have heard the speeches of the Secretary of State and I have read the Bill, and so far as I know we have not been offered any direct guidance on that point. We do not know when it is that the Governor-General will exercise special responsibility and take over the safeguarding, by special action of his own, of the financial stability and credit of the Federal Government. There is no indication in any way that this is a temporary safeguard. There is no indication anywhere in the Bill so far as I can see that this final authority is to be vested in the Federal Government. If there is no intention at any point in the development of India's march towards Dominion status and no provision in the Bill for the vesting in them of control over finance, then it is not rue to say that this Bill does confer Dominion status upon India. We shall be able to do justice to the Amendment when the Secretary of State has replied on one or two of these points. We are anxious that he should make perfectly clear to the Committee at this stage the circumstances under which the Governor-General is expected to assume this special responsibility in regard to safeguarding the finances and credit of the Federal Government.
    4.37 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: It is easy to put questions of this kind in the form of a dilemma. Either there is responsibility or there is not. If the Governor-General intervenes, it means that the Minister does not have responsibility. If, on the other hand, the Governor-General does not intervene, then it means that there is no financial safeguard. I have never admitted that kind of dilemma. I believe that it is perfectly possible for the Finance Minister of the Federation to be responsible and at the same time for the Governor-General to have the power of intervention in certain circumstances. I feel, further, that in actual practice, assuming that there is going to be commonsense on both sides—I still go on assuming that position—this kind of difficulty is not going to arise, or if it is going to arise it will arise very seldom. In 99 cases out of 100 there will be no difference of opinion between the Federal Minister and the Governor-General.
    I cannot understand how, short of Bedlam, an Indian Finance Minister would wish to do anything to shake the credit of India. If that would be the attitude of the Federal Minister, surely then there would be no need for the Governor-General's intervention for the protection of the credit of India. I cannot better describe the position than by reminding the Committee of the paragraph in the report of the Joint Select Committee on the subject. If hon. Members will look at paragraph 170—I do not need to read it at length—they will see set out very carefully and effectively the position as we envisage it, namely that we do not assume this gulf between the two sections of the Government. We do not think it is likely to arise. If, however, it does arise the Joint Select Committee very definitely take the view, and I agree strongly with them, that in the interests of India—I emphasise the interests of India—it is necessary that the Governor-General should have the right of intervention.
    I believe that one of the greatest benefits that the British Raj has conferred upon India has been Indian credit, namely, the fact that India has been able to borrow money at incredibly low rates of interest compared with other countries in a similar economic position. That is to a great extent due to the caution with which Indian finance has been admin
    1790
    istered, and the fact that the City here, from which India draws its loans, has always had full confidence in India's financial stability. No greater calamity could happen to India than anything which would shake Indian credit and make it impossible in the future for India to meet the various maturities of its loans or to have to meet them at exorbitant rates of interest. Further than that, looking to the future I am convinced that one of the greatest problems for India is to provide itself with capital for economic development. There is an almost boundless field, looking to the future, for economic development in the Indian continent. The cardinal factor in dealing with that need is the need of sound credit and cheap money, and I am sure that in the interests of am not saying anything of our own interests; I am not emphasising our own interests in the matter of loans, or in the matter of expenditure or the money for salaries or pensions—I am arguing the question on the interests alone of India—and in the interests of India it is absolutely necessary to have this special responsibility and to make it quite clear that there is no risk in the future of irresponsible or unwise action being taken that will endanger India's credit or the stability of Indian finance.
    4.43 p.m.
    Mr. OSWALD LEWIS: I am very glad that the Secretary of State proposes to resist the Amendment. I could not help feeling as I listened to the speech of the hon. Member who moved the Amendment that he was not giving sufficient weight to our responsibilities in this House with regard to this matter. We are proposing to hand over to our fellow subjects in India a larger share of the government of that country than they have had before. In doing that we cannot divest ourselves of our own responsibility for our past actions. We have in the past raised large loans on the credit of the Government of India. Those loans have been treated as trustee stock. They are largely held to-day by trustees. Many of our fellow countrymen have been employed as servants of the Crown in India, and it has been part of the terms of their employment that they would in due course enjoy certain pensions. I maintain that a very clear obligation rests upon this House and that we should take every step within our power to see that the

    1791
    interests of those holders of Indian stocks and of those people who are enjoying pensions are effectively safeguarded.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must not discuss pensions on this Amendment.
    Mr. LEWIS: I am sorry that I included pensions, which are not covered by the Clause. I will confine myself to the case of the Indian stocks. It seems to me that we- have a very clear obligation to see that the claims of the holders of those stocks are met, and that the finances of India are so conducted that funds are available to meet them. As to the purely Indian aspect, the Secretary of State has already pointed out how vital, in the interests of India herself, it is that her credit should be maintained at the high standard at which it has been maintained in the past. That, I suggest to the Mover of the Amendment, is the answer to his question. The hon. Member expressed surprise that the Princes do not object to this Clause. I suggest that the reason is that they appreciate its value to India. On all these grounds I think that the Amendment would be most ill-advised.
    4.46 p.m.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: There is a sense in which I think we can cordially agree with some part of the speech of the Secretary of State. Obviously we would all agree that it is necessary to safeguard the credit of India. That is an elementary proposition. But the proposition which is raised by our Amendment is as to whether the Governor-General should be the person who should have some special responsibility in regard to that matter. Of course, all through our discussions last week there has run, and probably in future there will run, the constant line of demarcation between right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite and ourselves. We naturally have a different philosophy, if I may call it that, from that of the Government. It was quite clearly brought out by the hon. Member who has just spoken. He spoke of the people of -position who have invested in trustee securities, and so on. I am not at all anxious that they should suffer financially by this change—far from it. Our primary concern in this business, on this side of the Committee, is as to
    1792
    how far we can transfer to the Indian people responsibility for their own concern. That is our approach. Therefore, in approaching the problem we put the Indian position first and our position second. That is not to deny the importance of the proposition which the last speaker has put before the House. The question is, is it a wise proposition that the Governor-General should have this special responsibility?
    I have repeatedly said in these discussions that I am exceedingly anxious that the Governor-General should be, so to speak, above the battle in India in future, that he should not be drawn into these controversies that are apt to be so violent and so bitter at times. From that point of view I am anxious to keep the Governor-General outside the ambit of these discussions to the utmost extent. Let us take the other side of the proposition. Suppose that we do leave the Governor-General out of the picture and do not give him these special responsibilities, can we then feel assured that the Indian people, if they were exercising full and complete control in this matter, could be relied upon to do their job efficiently without discredit to the credit of India? Really, what evidence is there in support of the suggestion that the Indian people are less gifted in the matter of financial ability than the people of England? All my study leads me to the conclusion, I say quite frankly, that the Indian people, those who engage in this kind of operation, show just as much capacity and just as much dexterity as the most dexterous people in this country. Is it supposed that the Indian people in control of India will be less concerned with the credit of India than has been the case in the past? Does anyone suggest that people suddenly in possession of self-governmental powers will act in such a foolish way as to prejudice the credit of their own country? Does anyone suppose that? Obviously their elementary duty would be so to discharge their task as to raise the credit of that country to the highest possible extent in the world.
    Let me return to the first proposition. What exactly does special responsibility for the financial stability of India involve? I do not want to cover ground which has been covered before, but we must recall what has been said in our discussions. There is a very high proportion of expenditure in India now upon

    1793
    one subject, namely, defence. A new Indian government, either at the centre or in the Provinces, must necessarily want to give proof to its people that self-government means something of real value to the general mass of the people. Unless the future government can prove that self-government in India means the raising of the standard of happiness and contentment of the great mass of the people, to that degree it will fail to convince the Indian people of the efficacy of self-government. It may desire to spend more money on social services. Is that an occasion for the Governor-General to come in? Is that what is meant and implied? Is that what is meant by this paragraph? We ought to know.
    It is a vital thing to a country of this sort, where the social problems are so present and insistent, that the government should be free, within the bounds of reason of course, to embark on social reforms without the danger of the Governor-General stepping in and saying, "No, you must not spend more rupees on that than you spend now, because if you do you will thereby prejudice the financial stability of your country. I must intervene and stop it." That is what we fear. This exceptional power of the Governor-General may, when there is a Governor-General who is particularly timorous, be used in the direction of keeping down every element that moves in the direction of advance in the matter of social reform. So we take our stand on two grounds: first on the ground of our philosophy, the right of the Indian people to determine as fully as they can the measure of their own self-government; and, secondly, having granted that principle, to give them as complete responsibility as possible to determine for themselves the rate of progress which shall be registered in the realm of social reform.
    4.53 p.m.
    Sir ARTHUR STEEL-MAITLAND: I have been roused by some of the remarks of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones). I can only say, incidentally and in passing, how glad we are to know of the hon. Member's new-found care for the stability of the credit of India. We sincerely hope that in the months and years to come the value of good credit, which hon. Members opposite recognise so freely with regard to
    1794
    India, will become part not only of their principles but of their actions in this country also. I have perfectly valid reasons for saying that. The hon. Member for Caerphilly shakes his head, but he knows that as well as I do. Let me come to the concluding part of his speech. He asks, are we going, by maintaining this paragraph in the Bill, to prejudice the power of an Indian ministry to deal with the social needs of the people of India? Taking the whole question in a broad view, I would say that what we are safeguarding are the social needs of the people of India, because if the hon. Member considers the matter he will see how much the satisfaction of those social needs rests upon the credit of the country being first class. Hon. members should also remember that India cannot provide for them fully from her own resources, probably for years to come. She must always be a borrower in foreign markets.
    I am thinking, as the hon. Member thinks, of the interests of the Indians themselves. India is bound to be a borrower in foreign markets for further railway development, for reservoirs and waterworks, and if she is to have housing and building schemes. For all those purposes good credit and cheap credit is essential. In a country like India, which is poor, unwise action may very quickly mean that her credit would be damaged from the point of view of lenders outside, and once that damage is inflicted years would be required to repair it. Think of a difference of two points of credit. It might almost double the cost of houses, or of the water supply or of the railways. From all these points of view I am sure the hon. Member will see that the need to safeguard India's credit is vital.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: My point was whether the Indian people Are less likely to have regard to that fact than the right hon. Gentleman himself.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: That was the hon. Member's other point, and I am going to deal with it. No one wishes, least of all myself, to say that there is any lack of individual ability in India. There is not. But it is true that at the outset there must be a lack of collective experience, and everyone in this Committee knows perfectly well how much we in this country in all parties owe to

    1795
    the collective experience that we have gained. Therefore, I support the inclusion of this paragraph, not because I would decry for a moment the power of intellect of any Indian, but just because my philosophy is different from that of hon. Members opposite. Their philosophy is static; my philosophy with regard to this matter is one of development. There ought to be safeguards at this stage of Indian development. They may not be needed later on, but in the early stages mistakes are easy, and the subject of finance is a peculiarly difficult one in which mistakes are most easily made. Mistakes are so easy with different schemes. There are so many of them, some of them good in themselves, some of them most attractive, and we all know the tendency there is to try to take them in hand if possible. For these reasons I say, from the point of view of the Indians themselves and from a quite justifiable philosophy, that to safeguard India in this matter during the years to come is highly necessary and desirable.
    5.0 p.m.
    Mr. COCKS: This Clause means that Indian ministers must be governed by orthodox views on finance. It means that they may not adopt a policy which is objectionable to the banks, to the Reserve Bank of India or to the Bank of England. But it is the policy of the banks which is being questioned nowadays in all quarters. We do not agree that financial dictation by the Bank of England has been so wise for many years past. Most of the mistakes made in the realm of finance have been made owing to the policy adopted by the Bank of England, by Mr. Montagu Norman, and, through him, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    The CHAIRMAN: I hope the hon. Member will not go off on that King Charles' head.
    Mr. COCKS: It is not King Charles' head, Sir Dennis; it is Mr. Montagu Norman's head.
    The CHAI RMAN: That, perhaps, is worse.
    Mr. COCKS: Much worse, Sir Dennis, But suppose a finance minister in India wanted to adopt a different method of currency and to go in for inflation, what would the Governor-General do? The Governor-General of India, who would
    1796
    not be a financial expert himself, would only intervene because the Reserve Bank of India would say, "We do not agree with this; it is all wrong, and it will lead to disaster." So it really means—and I am sorry to bring in King Charles' head again—that Mr. Montagu Norman, besides being virtually King of England, will be virtually Emperor of India. The orthodox policy, which has led to disaster in this country, and not wholly in this country, but in other parts of the world, ought not to continue in India.
    5.3 p.m.
    Sir EDWARD GRIGG: I agree with the last speaker that it is desirable to prevent any fear that the finances of India are controlled in the interests of this country. It is undesirable to let it be supposed that their tariff policy is controlled in the interests of the British people. But the Viceroy has a financial adviser of his own, and it is to be assumed that the advice given to him by his financial adviser will be definitely in the interest of India, and not in pursuit of any financial policy suitable primarily to this country. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) suggested that by passing this Clause we should be making some reflection on the financial competence of leading men in India. I would hesitate very much to make any such reflection, because there is no question that India has produced financiers of very great ability. Indeed, some of them have shown greater prescience than some of our own in the last 15 years. But that is not the point. There is no reflection, it seems to me, in this Clause, because I think the hon. Member must have forgotten that only a few months ago we were discussing a situation in which a British Dominion was on the verge of default, not because it lacked among its own people men of financial ability—they were there—but because the political machine had got out of hand and because policies were pursued under political pressure which were obviously not wise from a financial point of view. In any inexperienced political system that is likely to happen, and this, so far from being a reflection on the people of India, seems to me to be a very wise precaution to prevent anything happening in India such as happened in Newfoundland. It is very desirable that the Viceroy, advised by his financial adviser, should

    1797
    be able to intervene at an earlier stage than the Secretary of State was able to intervene in the case of Newfoundland. Therefore, I shall most certainly oppose the Amendment.
    5.5 p.m.
    Mr. ANEURIN BEVAN: I have been ruminating about the financial policy that has been followed by this country in the last 10 years and about its effect upon the colonial world. One would have gathered from the last speech and from the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland) and the Secretary of State for India that our financial policy had been so inspired, that the interests of the Colonial world for the last 50 or 100 years had been so wisely controlled by us, that its interests were best served by putting its financial policy under our control. What actually is the position? The position is that the Colonial world is practically ruined by the financial policy of this country, that only recently we compelled the Australians to accept a much lower standard of life in the interest of British bondholders, and that salaries were reduced universally—
    The CHAIRMAN: We must not discuss that matter now.
    Mr. BEVAN: I take exception. We are entitled—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member will please obey my Ruling. I rule definitely that, although he may refer to a case as an example, he must not here discuss in detail this question of Australia.
    Mr. BEVAN: But, Sir Dennis, I was using that in passing, as an illustration. It was not my intention to go into details, but merely to point out that the basis of the proposition advanced by the Front Bench is false and—
    Sir E. GRIGG: The hon. Member seems to be arguing that the Commonwealth of Australia has not been responsible for its own finances for the last 30 years. It has been absolutely responsible.
    Mr. BEVAN: My position is that in financial matters in many of the Dominions and Crown Colonies the City of London has had predominant control, and the hon. Member knows very well that one of the charges brought against
    1798
    Wall Street and against Threadneedle Street is that they have pumped money into the Dominions and the Crown Colonies unnecessarily, that they have used their financial influence to place loans where loans were not justified.
    Sir E. GRIGG: Does the hon. Member really suggest that the Dominion of Australia is not self-governing?
    Mr. BEVAN: It is our contention that no nation in which financial power rests in private hands is self-governing.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): The hon. Member has made too important a statement to let it go by. Surely he must know, first, that, so far as the finance of any Dominion is concerned, the Dominion is absolutely responsible for it, and, secondly, that there is not a Dominion in the British Commonwealth which would not pay tribute to London for the facilities given to it. Incidentally, because of the facilities given, conversions have taken place that have relieved the Dominions of 22,700,000. I only intervene because my hon. Friend may be quoted in Australia, and it would not do to let misstatements pass.
    Mr. BEVAN: That intervention of the right hon. Gentleman has added nothing to the information of the Committee and is entirely irrelevant. Everybody knows that the formal government of a Dominion is in the hands of the Dominion itself, but everybody knows that the reality of financial government is in the hands of financial interests, and the right hon. Gentleman has spent practically the whole of his lifetime until the present time in pointing it out. The proposition advanced here is that the credit of the new borrowing countries is safer in the hands of Great Britain than it is in the hands of those countries themselves. What is the present spectacle? World investment has practically broken down as a consequence of our control of it, as a consequence of the fact that the finances of the Colonial world have been dominated by the Western world and that the Colonial world has been impoverished by the financial policy of the Western world. The new nations are practically unable to borrow money in any quantity at the present time, and if they were able to borrow it, if they

    1799
    were credit-worthy, our export trade would mount enormously. That is the position, and it is known to everybody, yet we have this Pecksniffian attitude that we have such geniuses in finance, that we have managed our financial relations with the new nations so competently, that India would suffer grievous disaster if she were allowed to manage her own financial affairs.
    The proposition contained in the Bill is that Indian finance should be governed in the interests of the Indian moneylender. This Bill does not, as a matter of fact, hand over the Government of India to what are euphemistically called the irresponsible masses of India. The Bill only enfranchises the property owners of India, who are very much concerned about Indian credit and are vitally involved in the development of their own commercial concerns. Is it conceivable that those people would carry out a financial policy which would jeopardise their own properties and their own undertakings? It is fantastic. If you were handing over India to the Indian working classes, you would expect them to be slightly irresponsible about the propertied classes, but we are enfranchising only the property owners of India, and I imagined that that would be a sufficient guarantee. But no, the real conflict is between the property owners of India and the property owners of Great Britain, and you want that safeguard in the Bill in order to safeguard the property owners of Great Britain against the rivalry of the property owners of India, so that if any controversy arises in the future, the Viceroy can intervene on behalf of the property owners of this country.
    I submit to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for India that in his discussion of dyarchy he really did not do justice to the facts. As I understand it, the Governor-General's veto may be exercised on every budget as it comes before the Indian Assembly. The Governor-General's safeguarding powers would be put forward every time. There will be pressure on many of the Indian legislatures to undertake expenditure in respect of social services, but they will have a splendid alibi. Whenever discussion takes place, what will they be able to say? "We cannot do this,
    1800
    because of the veto of the Governor-General." He has a veto on defence, so that he insists on a certain sum of money being always available in the budget. Under his obligation and responsibility to see to the defence of India, half the Indian budget goes there, and the rest, or a large part of it, is already preempted. If they propose to expend any additional money in order to improve the social services of the country, the Viceroy steps in, and if the Viceroy does not step in, he will not be doing his duty of safeguarding the credit of India. If the Viceroy does step in, then the British raj is again responsible for bad government in India.
    That will be the contention, and, in order that the Governor-General's veto may be exercised, clever Indian politicians, anxious to make these safeguarding powers the football of Indian controversy, will put before the Governor-General proposals that he may have to veto; and that situation is going to occur year after year. I agree that this difficulty is implicit in dyarchy, but it is even more implicit and acrimonious in financial dyarchy, because this issue will be raised every year on the Indian Budget. I submit that it would be a legitimate prophecy to make that dyarchy in financial matters is going to be the most acrimonious element in Indian politics, because it involves just those questions which Indians are anxious to push forward for the improvement of their own people. In the interests of the reputation of Great Britain and of the British raj in India it would be far better to hand over the whole financial responsibility for the management of their affairs to the Indian people, and wipe our hands of any responsibility for it in the future.
    5.17 p.m.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: I think it is desirable very briefly to remind the Committee, while we are discussing these matters, that there are some special reasons for these words being in the Bill. I heartily endorse what my right hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland) and others have said as to the ability of many Indians, but we have to remember that India is a land where extreme opinions get much' more chance than they do in this country,' that it is a land of excitable tempera

    1801
    ments and a good deal of ignorance, and that as a result of Congress activities for nearly four years past the Congress party have been committed to a policy of repudiation of the Indian public debt in whole or in part. It was on account of that policy that representatives of civil servants expressed grave fears to the Joint Select Committee, on the first day on which they gave evidence, as to whether their pensions would be safe. Since then the Congress party, which had been standing out of the Assembly for some years, again put forward representatives, who repeated this policy of repudiation of public debt in whole or in part. We know to-day that Congress is the strongest party in the Indian Assembly, and therefore this question is one which we have to keep very much in mind when we are considering the question of India's credit and financial stability. A policy of further depreciation of the rupee has been much talked of among Indian politicians. Depreciation to 1s. 4d., and, I am told, even sometimes to 1s. or 9d., has been talked of. That again, if carried through, would very seriously affect the retiring incomes or pensions of men who have given their lives, and very often their health, to service in India; and it would also affect the pensions that they may leave to their dependants.
    I feel also that the words in the Bill are very necessary from the point of view of Indian interests, because India is a poor country. It has very few people whose incomes are at such a level that they have to pay Income Tax; the great mass of the taxation is on commodities. Men who have been living in close touch with the peasants have said to me quite recently that they simply do not know how the people live and manage to pay the taxes that are exacted from them. Therefore, economical administration of India's finance is tremendously important in the interests of her people. Nevertheless, we have evidence of considerably increased expenditure since 1921. We have the evidence of the Simon Commission as to the greatly increased expenditure on education, with very little improvement in literacy. We have evidence of a 20 per cent. rise in expenditure both in the Provinces and at the centre, exclusive of the Army, since 1921. Therefore it seems to me that nothing is more necessary in the interests of the welfare
    1802
    of the masses than that there should be a guiding hand at the top. That the Governor-General, with the assistance of a Financial Adviser, should be able to safeguard the financial credit and stability of India, seems to me to be essential both for the welfare of the Indian people and for those who have to live on pensions charged on Indian revenue.
    5.22 p.m.
    Mr. ATTLEE: The Noble Lady has one Measure for this country and another Measure for India. She talked about the rupee, but she must have been well aware that there has been a big controversy, not by any means confined to India, as to the fixing of the value of the rupee. Many people think that a very grave error was made in that regard, but, after all, we made a similar error on the question of the Gold Standard, and why the Noble Lady should think that India would make a greater mistake than that which has already been made in this country I do not know. With regard to repudiation, the Indians, as the Noble Lady has said, are very clever—clever enough to imitate our Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, instead of repaying debt, make a token payment—
    Duchess of ATHOLL: Does the hon. Gentleman deny that, if anything of that sort happened, it would create a very serious position for thousands of men who have retired after a life's hard service in India?
    Mr. ATTLEE: That is a matter of contract, and again I would point out to the Noble Lady that the Government which she supports broke contracts made with all kinds of people—Civil servants, workers and others. There again she has one measure for this country and another measure for India. The Noble Lady talks about the deplorable poverty of the Indians, but we have had examples of deplorable poverty in this country, in South Wales and elsewhere. I think the Noble Lady's argument is one that she had better apply to this country first of all. If she says that India is incapable of mangaging her affairs, then a fortiori this country is. Finally, the Noble Lady is quite wrong in her suggestion that there is going to be extravagant expenditure on education and so forth under this Measure, because, as she knows, education and social services are provincial matters—
    Duchess of ATHOLL: I never said that they were central; I merely pointed out that there are indications that expenditure, both central and provincial, has been rising in India, and that it is in the interest of the poor peasantry that administration at the centre should be as economical as possible.
    Mr. ATTLEE: The Noble Lady gave no evidence of rising expenditure at the centre—
    Duchess of ATHOLL: I did not mention any items, because I did not wish to trespass on the time of the Committee. I merely stated the fact that there has been a rise of about 20 per cent. in expenditure, both central and provincial, excluding the Army, since 1921. I pointed out that that is the trend of Indian finance, which I think we must watch very carefully in the interests of the people. I am well aware of the poverty that exists in this country; nobody could ignore it; but it must be borne in mind that in India there is no Poor Law, no unemployment insurance, and no health insurance—none of the safeguards that we have in this country.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I would point out to the Noble Lady that the biggest item of central expenditure is the Army, and I am afraid that it is likely to go up. No doubt the Noble Lady has in mind the fact that this year there is going to be an increase of £10,000,000 in the expenditure in this country on the Army, Navy and Air Force, and, if she wants to go on precedents in this country, that is where a heavy deficit is likely to be seen.
    5.27 p.m.
    Mr. McGOVERN: Up to the present I have taken no part in the discussions on this Bill, and I may say in passing that that has been because I believe that the Bill will never operate in any way. No person in India seems to desire it. But as regards this proposal of the Opposition I think the position is perfectly clear. To-day the Noble Lady has voiced the policy of the die-hards in connection with India; on this occasion she is supporting the Government and the Bill, and resisting the Amendment of the Opposition. I agree entirely with the view of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan), that the desire is simply to
    1804
    safeguard the finances in the interests of the bond-holding section, as against the use of money in connection with social reforms, education and so forth in India. One must agree, in spite of the assurances given by the Secretary of State for the Dominions, that, if examples are to be cited from the past, the concern has always been for the bondholders rather than for the interests of the common people. The general complaint in connection with the finances of Newfoundland was that interest and bonds had not been met, and that was the reason for the action taken in suppressing democratic Government in Newfoundland.
    Mr. A. BEVAN: And the Newfoundland Government had been corrupted.
    Mr. McGOVERN: Yes. As regards the point made by the Secretary of State for the Dominions, I was in Australia at the time—I only cite this as an example—
    The CHAIRMAN: I hope the hon. Member will not carry this question too far.
    Mr. McGOVERN: I only want to point out that, in connection with the safeguarding of the finances of Queensland at that time, the Government of this country demanded that legislation which had been enacted in that country should be put aside, or the money would not be found by the bond-holding section in this country with which to carry on the ordinary life of Queensland; and we saw Mr. Theodore coming to this country cap in hand and threatening to go to America to raise money because social legislation would not be permitted by the dominating governing influence of the ruling class in this country.
    One point that comes out here is that the Bill narrows down the power to a small section of the propertied class. It is to that small section that power in India is being limited, but you are not prepared to entrust them with the handling of finance, because they might handle it to the detriment of the bondholders and in the interests of the peasants and workers of India. The Noble Lady says that there is a tremendous amount of ignorance in India; I would extend that statement and say that there is a tremendous amount of ignorance in every country throughout the world. But because men have not

    1805
    learned how to read and write, it does not necessarily follow that they are in a state of ignorance. The person who observes the natural things that happen in life may be more intelligent than one who has been to a university. I am not aghast at the idea that we have in India millions of people seeking to be entrusted with the financial dealings of their own country.
    I say frankly that this Clause in the Bill will give power to the Governor-General to operate in every direction where it might be determined in that country to overstep a given line in financial dealings which would eliminate a certain amount of poverty that is in that country. The Governor-General would have power to say that shall not take place, because it would strike at the financial stability of this country. He would have a main eye on the guaranteeing of interest on bonds and, because of the fact that the finances of that country would not permit of the complete paying
    of the interest to the bondholders, social legislation has got to be suppressed in the interest of the people in this country who at a great distance are dominating and controlling that unhappy country. Therefore, I am prepared to believe that the ruling class of this country, which can put in commissioners in one area to prevent the working-class from getting its standard of life, will operate in the same way in India and prevent the natural development that ought to take place in a civilised community such as India. I am under no delusions. I have no great interest in the Measure at all, because I hope that by the time it passes there will have developed in India a revolutionary movement which will refuse to operate it and will seize India for the Indian people.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 312; Noes, 38.

    Division No. 76.]

    AYES.

    [5.32 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Albery, Irving James

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J.A.(Birm., W)

    Elliston, Captain George Sampson

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)

    Elmley, Viscount

    Assheton, Ralph

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leotric

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Clarke, Frank

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Ballour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Flelden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

    Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    Beauchamp, Sir Brogravo Campbell

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Fox, Sir Gilford

    Beit, Sir Alfred L.

    Cooke, Douglas

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Bernays, Robert

    Copeland, Ida

    Galbraith, James Francis Wallace

    Blindell, James

    CourtauId, Major John Sewetl

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Bossom, A. C.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Boulton, W. W.

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Gluckstein, Louis Hallo

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Galnsb'ro)

    Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Cross, R. H.

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Curry, A. C.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Graves, Marjorie

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.J

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Grigg, Sir Edward

    Brown. Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Grimston, R. V.

    Buchan, John

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Denvilie, Alfred

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Bullock, Captain Malcolm

    Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Dickie, John p.

    Hamilton, Sir R.W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Burton, Colonel Henry Walter

    Donner, P. W.

    Hammersley, Samuel S.

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Doran, Edward

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Drewe, Cedric

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Harvey, Major Sir Samuel (Totnes)

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Carver, Major William H,

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Dunglass, Lord

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Eden, Rt. Hon, Anthony

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmst'd)

    Milne, Charles

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

    Hornby, Frank

    Morrison, William Shepherd

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Munro, Patrick

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine.C.)

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth. C.)

    Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Peterst'ld)

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Janner, Barnett

    Nunn, William

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Soper, Richard

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Ormiston, Thomas

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Spens, William Patrick

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Peake, Osbert

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Pearson, William G.

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Kirkpatrick, William M.

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Stevenson, James

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Stones, James

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Storey, Samuel

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Petherick. M.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Peto. Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n.Bilston)

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton

    Leckie, J. A.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Lees-Jones, John

    Potter, John

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Levy, Thomas

    Pybus, Sir John

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Lewis, Oswald

    Radford, E. A,

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.(P'dd'gt'n, S.)

    Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Llewellin, Major John J.

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Tree, Ronald

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. Georqe Clement

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Ray, Sir William

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partlck)

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Held, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Reiner, John R.

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Richards, George William

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

    Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Watt, Major George Steven H.

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Wayland. Sir William A.

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

    Runclman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    White, Henry Graham

    Magnay, Thomas

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Maitland, Adam

    Russell, R. J. (Eddlsbury)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Salt, Edward W.

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

    Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Meller, Sir Richard James

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Mills, Major J. D, (New Forest)

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir

    George Penny.

    NOES.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Mainwaring, William Henry

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

    Maxton, James.

    Banfield, John William

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Milner, Major James

    Batey, Joseph

    Hall. George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Thorne, William James

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Kirkwood, David

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cove, William G.

    Lawson, John James

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Leonard, William

    Williams, Thomas (York. Don Valley)

    Daggar, George

    Lunn, William

    Wilmot, John

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Edwards, Charles

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    McGovern, John

    Mr. Groves and Mr. Paling.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    5.42 p.m.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move, in page 8, line 11, to leave out "legitimate."
    That will leave to the Governor-General the safeguarding of the interests of minorities. Those are the words of the original Act of 1919. They have been

    1809
    altered in this Bill by the insertion of the word "legitimate." I do not know why the Government have put it in, but it seems to me, not speaking as a lawyer, that it is limitation. It means that it is not the duty of the Governor to look after the interests of minorities but only to look after their legal interests—interests which they have secured to them by law. The real difficulty is that in the Indian States there are no rights secured by law. In British India there is no discrimination against minorities. Before the law and before the police every man is equal; therefore the word "legitimate" does not matter so much. But it matters enormously in the case of the Indian States. There was a minority of Mohammedan Moplahs in the South of India who rose in rebellion. In every native State there are other minorities. We have had a very strong example lately of the Moslem minority in Cashmere which rose against oppression and had to be put down. These minorities have at present no legal rights. The inhabitants of the native States not being British Indians, have such rights as are allowed to them by the ruler. Their legal status and their legal rights, and therefore their legitimate interests must suffer if the Governor-General does not include the protection of minorities in those States as one of his special functions. The insertion of this word in the first place, therefore, is to eliminate the possible protection of the minorities in the Indian States from the purview of the Government so that a Prince will be able to say if any protest is made against his action that "these are not legal rights and legitimate interests, and therefore you have no right to interfere in the way I manage my own people."
    Sir S. HOARE: May I ask for your Ruling, Sir Dennis. I apologise for interrupting the right hon. and gallant Member, but he is travelling, I suggest, a good deal wider than this rather fine point of the adjective "legitimate." Would it not be convenient to take a more general discussion and bring in these other matters at the same time as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is already dealing inferentially with one or two of them?
    The CHAIRMAN: The next Amendment on the Order Paper to be selected
    1810
    is also an Amendment in the name of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, and, as it comes practically in the same place, it is obviously to some extent concerned with it, and I suggest that he should discuss both Amendments together.
    Mr. ATTLEE: Do I understand that you are taking the Amendment to leave out "legitimate" with the insertion of "racial or religious?"
    The CHAIRMAN: That is my idea. The whole of that line in the Clause can be discussed now, and the question which I should actually put to the Committee would be that the word "legitimate" should stand part, and then, if it be desired, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman or others concerned with him can move the insertion of the words "racial, religious and political" and take a decision on the question in the Committee without further discussion.
    Mr. ATTLEE: The Amendments are directly contradictory. The first one endeavours to widen the scope of the special responsibility of the Governor-General, and the other is an endeavour to restrict the special responsibility of the Governor-General, and, therefore, they are not complementary but directly contradictory.
    The CHAIRMAN: That shows all the more conclusively that we should discuss them together when we should hear both sides.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: They are quite different points, but I think that my hon. Friend is wrong in saying that the second Amendment is restrictive. The second Amendment extends the "minorities" by including the racial religious and political minorities. The word "minorities" is defined later in the Bill. There is no question of economic minorities.
    I was explaining that I want to confine myself solely at the moment to the word "legitimate," and that the insertion of this word seems to prevent the Governor-General from interfering in the case of minorities in the native States and that those minorities in the native States have created a considerable amount of trouble, and have aroused a considerable amount of sympathy in this House and in India in

    1811
    times past. It is certainly desirable that they should not be ruled out of the purview of the Governor-General, and that he should be able to protect these minorities even though the Princes might not wish that protection should be given. Before I depart from that subject, I feel that we are arguing here almost in the face of a, blank wall. Really, we ought to be arguing with Sir Akbar Hydari and Sir Ramaswami Aiyar. The House is apparently impotent unless they agree. It must have been at the instance of the Princes that that word has been inserted, and I think that while we may call ourselves a sovereign House and consider ourselves to be the arbiter of this Indian Bill, the discussion we have had in recent days about the powers of the Princes in this Bill makes it almost impossible that the Secretary of State should accept the Amendment.
    The point of view I consider infinitely more serious is that this word "legitimate" may have been put in in order to sanction the form of treatment of minorities which would certainly be against their interest. We heard at Question time the other day from the Secretary of State for the Colonies of a certain law in Zanzibar, differentiating between Indians and other people in that Protectorate. It was justified, because there had been similar legislation passed in the Punjab whereby differentiation was made between Hindus and Mohammedans in the Punjab land ordinances. We are under this Bill setting up a new province of Sind. In that Province the Hindus will be in a very small minority. It will be almost inevitable that the land legislation which is now in force in the Punjab should be tried in Sind. Is the Governor-General to be in a position to stop that legislation or not? Is he to be in a position to protect the interests of the minorities by saying that such legislation must not be allowed, or is he by the insertion of the word "legitimate" to be ruled out from protecting British subjects against a form of discrimination which is utterly unknown elsewhere in the British Empire? The legislation quite simply is to prevent Hindus having the right to buy agricultural land whether it is in certain areas or wherever it is. Where that action is in force the Hindus may not
    1812
    buy land and may not foreclose on it and may not lend on a mortgage. The only purchasers are the Mohammedan landlords who can buy up the land very cheaply from the unfortunate ryots.
    The Punjab land legislation has had a profound effect upon Hindu opinion all over India. It is the one piece of iniquitous legislation which they always bring up before you as an example of British injustice. Are we going to allow similar legislation elsewhere against Hindu or Moslem discriminating between the two religions and saying that either may not buy land? Are we going to allow that to injure the interests of minorities without allowing this House or the Governor-General to have any voice in the matter whatsoever? It all comes back to the communal issue which I will not go into now. The Hindus have no votes for the Mohammedans masters in Sind, and consequently no control over them. They are a minority without power and without votes. The only hope is that you will allow the omission of the word "legitimate," so that the Governor-General will still possess power to protect them from an iniquitous law in the sense that it is not equal between the two races. That one hope will be taken away from them if you change the wording of the original 1919 Act and substitute the new wording of this Act whereby the only interests which the Governor-General may protect are those interests which are established by law, and which are not interfered with by law.
    The other point with which I will deal only very shortly is the question of the character and description of the minorities. What are the minorities? Later on you will see that they include certainly religious and communal minorities but not political minorities. Anyone who has realised the sort of constitution, the aggregation of property which is being set up as the great governing class of India under this Bill must realise that the people who will suffer will not be even the religious or the racial minorities, but above all the political minorities, the Communists and the Socialists. Some hon. Members know more or less what is going on in Japan at the present time and of the hopeless position of anyone accused of advanced doctrines there. You are establishing in India a Government quite as reactionary, and this House

    1813
    is deprived of any voice or say in the way in which they may treat their political minorities. If they are going to have Communists all over India having their heads chopped off for the mere crime of being Communists, and, if they are going to set up in India a similar system of government which is so firmly established in Germany and in Japan, then I say that it is our duty as Englishmen, to protect the rights of all and to see that the political minority are saved from oppression, intolerance, and brutal legislation; it is our duty to see that the British Governor-General and the British Parliament still have the power to stop it. Therefore, I beg of the Committee to consider carefully before they reject either of these Amendments, the confining of protection to those who have legal rights and the exclusion from minorities of that noisy and somewhat turbulent element, to see that those people are not handed over bound hand and foot, and that we lose all chance of speaking a word in favour of justice.
    5.59 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I will deal with the right hon. Gentleman's points in order and will begin with the Amendment to leave out the word "legitimate." I think he is attaching too much importance to this adjective. It does not in any way bring in the question of the Indian States. It will make no difference as far as the Indian States are concerned whether the word "legitimate" is in the Bill or whether it is not.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Why is it put in?
    Sir S. HOARE: It is put in for the same reason that the word "interests" is put in, to provide the security intended—at all our discussions in Committee with Indians there was never disagreement there—to make it clear that they should be reasonable interests. There is no question of having the restrictive almost pedantic meaning suggested by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that it would mean only legal rights.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Would you accept "reasonable" instead of "legitimate"?
    Sir S. HOARE: I do not really think that there would be any difference. I am not splitting hairs. There is no sub
    1814
    stantial difference. "Legitimate" is the word which has been used in all these discussions, and it would only create anxiety in the minds of minorities as much as in the minds of other people if we change the word now. There is no part of the Bill in which there are so many touchy issues as there are in this part, and I am quite sure that it is unnecessary to make the change.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of changing this word on report provided I can get the views of the Hindu Mahasabah on the matter, or provided he can get their views on the particular word?
    Sir S. HOARE: I could not undertake to do that. Obviously, one would have to consult all these people, and, as far as I can remember, there has never been any question in our discussions about the word. It is true that some sections of the Indian people wished to carry it further, but we always resisted it, the Indian delegates, including the delegates of the Hindus and the representatives of the other communities, who were on the Committee, as well. The word has emerged from the earlier discussions, and I am quite sure that we should gain nothing in substance by making a change now.
    Mr. ISAAC FOOT: Is it not the case that in our discussions the word "legitimate" was used in its general sense, not in the sense used by the right hon. and gallant Member; that is to say, it refers to general interests, not merely to legal interests?
    Sir S. HOARE: The word is used to mean general interests in the sense explained by the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) and the Committee will remember that we deal with this question with great precision in the Instrument of Instructions. We explain how the Governor-General and Governors are to interpret these provisions in the Bill. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will look at Section 11 he will find that the Governor-General and Governors are definitely given the instruction not to put a kind of legalistic interpretation upon them, but to treat them in a broad and reasonable manner. That is the governing factor in the matter.

    1815
    I come to the wider question raised by the right hon. and gallant Member: his proposal to extend the protection of minorities to political minorities. I feel sure that the more hon. Members think about this proposition the more impossible they will find it to be in practice. Obviously, it would strike at the root of representative government both in the Centre and in the Provinces if the Governor-General and the Governors were expected to intervene and set aside the decision of a majority on one day and put in its place a decision of the minority. Further, it would put the Governor-General in an almost impossible position. What is the minority to-day may be the majority to-morrow. The Governor-General would thus be in this position. In the first place, it would be impossible to carry it out, and, if he could carry it out, it would strike at the root of representative institutions in the Centre and in the Provinces, and would do the very thing we wish to avoid—namely, encourage irresponsibility in the Federal Legislature and in the Federal Executive. In this case, when dealing with minorities, we mean, first of all, the six minorities which have always been regarded as minorities in the phraseology we use, and, in the second place, we mean the backward races and backward communities, which for one reason or another cannot pull their weight under representative institutions. Those are the minorities we have in mind. We deal with them in the general phrase that the Governor-General must have latitude in his interpretation of his responsibilities, but we explain the way in which he is to exercise his responsibilities in the Instrument of Instructions, where we follow exactly the recommendations of the Joint Select Committee as set out in paragraph 79. Let me remind the Committee of the effective words in that paragraph:
    "Nor do we think that any good purpose would be served by attempting to give a legal definition of 'minorities,' the only effect of which would be to limit the protection which the Governor's special responsibility is intended to afford. No doubt it will be the five or six well recognised and more important minorities in whose interests the Governor's powers will usually be invoked; but there are certainly other well-defined sections of the population who may from time to time require protection, and we can see no justification for
    1816
    defining the expression for the purpose of excluding them. We need hardly say that we have not in mind a minority in the political or parliamentary sense, and 110 reasonable person would, we think, ever so construe the word. Nevertheless to prevent misunderstanding, we recommend that the Instrument of Instructions should make this plain, and further that this special responsibility is not intended to enable the Governor to stand in the way of social or economic reform merely because it is resisted by a group of persons who might claim to be regarded as a minority."
    Those reasons seem to be conclusive for keeping the definition as it is in the Bill and for not extending it on the lines suggested by the right hon. and gallant Member. It would undermine the whole structure of responsibility in the government and impose an impossible task on the Governor-General.
    6.10 p.m.
    Colonel GOODMAN: I have heard the explanation of the Secretary of State with regard to the word "legitimate," but there is one minority, perhaps the greatest of all minorities in India, who will be gravely affected if the word is allowed to remain in the Bill. I am speaking now of the untouchables or the scheduled castes. They are one of the religious minorities. They are regarded by every caste and religious class as entirely illegitimate, and I want to know exactly what their position will be in the States and in the Provinces. They are regarded by caste Hindus as being nothing, or less than nothing. In the Southern part of India they are not allowed to walk on the roads in which a Hindu lives. They are not allowed to draw water from the same well. Their children are not allowed to go to the same school. They must keep off the road if a caste Hindu comes along. They are, in fact and actually, considered by the Brahmins as less than nothing, and because of that I want the word to be deleted from the Clause. Indeed, in some parts of India, in the South-West in particular, it is not considered a crime for a Brahmin to kill an untouchable in some particular castes. If the word "legitimate" is allowed to remain in the Bill— those who rule will undoubtedly be Brahmins where you have a Hindu state—this so-called minority, which numbers between 50,000,000 and 60,000,000 people is not likely to get any consideration whatever.

    1817
    If the word "legitimate" is left in I cannot see how the Governor-General is going to interfere, and, in my view, before long the untouchables or the scheduled castes will revert to the position in which they were before the British came to India. Since the arrival of the British in India the untouchables have had recourse to fair play from the British and to courts of law, prior to that they had no hopes either in life or in after life. With the Brahmins as the ruling caste they will of necessity revert to the state they were in before the British came to India. I believe that the Sudra, the only "once born," will be kept in subjection and the Governor-General will not have any right to interfere on their behalf. Even the Sudras, who represent three-quarters of the whole of the castes of India, are not considered to be anything. The higher castes, the ruling castes, must be the Brahmins, the ksyatrya, and the Vaishya, and the lower castes, probably representing 75 per cent. of the population, possibly 750,000,000 of people, will be without any rights if they depend on the word "legitimate." I cannot see how the Governor-General is going to interfere on their behalf. Their legitimate interests will not be looked after when they are ruled by Brahmins. I hope on behalf of the great majority of the scheduled castes, the untouchables, that the word will be deleted.
    6.15 p.m.
    Major MILNER: I cannot agree with the hon. and gallant Member for North Islington (Colonel Goodman) that the depressed classes have had the protection or the attention which they ought to have received from the British Government during the last 150 years. The very fact that all the disabilities of which we have heard exist to-day as they existed 150 years ago is sufficient proof of that fact.
    Colonel GOODMAN: I meant to suggest that while, 150 years ago, there were perhaps 100,000 of these people who were absolutely submerged, to-day, under British rule, at any rate a, few millions of them are able to earn their own livings and some occupy high places in the country. The British have certainly not cured the condition of the whole 100,000, but they have done a lot of good, and my argument is that
    1818
    the good which they have done may be lost in this way, and these classes may be put back to where they were formerly.
    Major MILNER: I do not desire to enter into a detailed discussion of the question, but I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman is wrong in his arithmetic. I certainly cannot agree with his general proposition. The representative of the scheduled classes, Dr. Ambedkar told me that, in spite of the fact that he was a graduate of a university in this country, of a university in the United States and of a university in Germany, in spite of the fact that he was a barrister-at-law with very high legal qualifications, he was not permitted to plead inside certain courts in India. He had to stand outside the court and plead through a window to the judges who were seated inside. That and other disabilities which have been mentioned, continue to exist to-day as they existed 150 years ago. But I do not wish to be drawn away from the principal point which I am anxious to make. I agree that the word "legitimate" ought to be left out of the Clause and, as the Solicitor-.General is in his place, I hope that we shall have from him a legal definition of this word. I always thought that the word "legitimate" meant sanctioned or authorised by law, but according to the definition given by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for State it is to be taken as meaning "proper." I think we ought to have an authoritative statement from the Solicitor-General on the definition of the word.
    We on this side desire to see a good deal more protection given to the minorities than the purely legal protection to which they are entitled by law. We submit that they are entitled to protection in a great many other respects. Who is going to say whether it is the legitimate interests of a minority which are being attacked in a paticular case? [HON. MEMBERS: "The Governor-General."] Then, are those interests to be purely legal interests or are they to include other interests? My own view and I think my party's view is that all interests of minorities as defined in the Instruments of Instruction, should be subject to the protection of the Governor-General. The second Amendment which stands on the Paper in the

    1819
    name of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) is, in substance, the same as one to which my name is appended except that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has included the word "political." I think the object of those Amendments, at least the object which I have in mind, is largely met by paragraph 11, page 4, of the Instruments of Instruction, but I wish to ask the Secretary of State some questions on that point. It will be seen that here again the word "legitimate" appears. In our view it is a restrictive word and, subject to any advice which the Solicitor-General may give to us concerning it, I submit that it ought not to appear in this Clause.
    I understood that the object of the Government and of the Joint Select Committee was to obtain protection for members of the community who, through lack of educational or material advantages, could not put their own case before those in authority. That description clearly applies to the depressed classes or as they are now described the scheduled classes. They have no representatives at all on the Council of State under the Government plan. They have only 19 representatives in the Assembly. Therefore I take it that they would without question come within the definition in the Instruments of Instruction. I am perfectly content that all those classes who cannot otherwise represent their views or have them represented, should be able to rely in the last resort on the Governor-General, but I wish to know whether this definition would also extend to the landlords, the taluqdars, who might have taxation placed upon them. Would they be regarded as proper subjects for the invocation of the Governor-General's powers. The Committee will remember that they have ample representation—as indeed have all the other classes possessing property and wealth—in the various legislatures. If I were satisfied that this protection was designed for those who have not the means of protecting themselves I, personally, should not be inclined to press the Amendment to a Division. On the other hand, if it is designed to give additional protection to those who are already amply protected and who are well represented
    1820
    in the various legislatures, then, very different considerations would apply.
    There is another question which is of a rather legal character and with which, again, the Solicitor-General might assist us. If we limit tile power of interference to racial or religious matters, would not that according to what is known as the ejusdem generis rule, limit the power of the Governor-General very considerably? Would it not be better to leave the matter wide open rather than restrict his powers in that way? I shall be guided in that matter by the Solicitor-General, but on the general question put forward by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme I feel, and I think hon. Members on these benches would agree, that the Clause would be better without this word "legitimate."
    6.22 p.m.
    Mr. A. SOMERVILLE: We are dealing here with a very weighty and special responsibility of the Governor-General. Sub-section (2) of the Clause provides that the Governor-General shall in the exercise of his powers "use his individual judgment," and according to the definition given to us by the Solicitor-General last week, exercising his individual judgment means that before he comes to a, decision he must consult his Indian advisers. The word "legitimate" may very easily cause difficulty to the Governor-General in such discussions. The discussion which we have just heard shows how the word may give rise to difficulties. The Secretary of State has drawn attention to paragraph 79 of the report of the Joint Select Committee. In that paragraph the phrase "legitimate interests" is described as a reasonable and suitable formula. It is also stated that the joint memorandum of the British India delegation wished to have the phrase strictly defined, but the Committee, wisely I think, refused to define it strictly because, as it stood, it allowed the question to be dealt with in the widest sense. In these Amendments it is desired to carry on that process and to allow the Governor-General to deal with this most important subject of the interests of minorities in the widest possible sense.
    6.25 p.m.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for

    1821
    Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) was well advised to raise this question. I am bound to say that when I read the Clause it did not occur to me that there was all this significance to be attached to the word "legitimate." Obviously, and on the face of it, we would not expect the Viceroy to protect the illegitimate interests of minorities, but after the explanation of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, it is clear that a definite and important significance is attached to the introduction of this word "legitimate." In the ordinary course, this sentence would have read simply "safeguarding the interests, etc." One would have thought that the Viceroy, on whom we are showering all these various functions, to whom we are entrusting this immense process of discrimination in all these matters and the power of deciding when to intervene and when not to intervene, on whom we are imposing these many extraordinarily subtle and complex tasks—one would have thought that this high functionary, this gifted being, would be able to distinguish between interests which were legitimate and those which were not legitimate, without the necessity of stating it, in the terms of the Statute.
    It seems to me that we are here in the presence of some understanding which has been reached with certain classes in India—and for what? My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Islington (Colonel Goodman) raised the question of the untouchables. What does the Secretary of State regard as the legitimate interests of the untouchables? We know what their interests in the ordinary sense are. Their chief interest is to be treated as human beings. But what are their legitimate interests? How much are their interests narrowed down by this word "legitimate"? I should have thought, now that British protection was going to be withdrawn from the minorities, in the first instance, that the Government would have been most anxious to confer upon the Viceroy the widest and most unfettered discretion in dealing with the minorities and giving them protection.
    We have not heard from the Attorney-General or the Solicitor-General anything upon the legal aspect of this question but obviously, if ever such matters
    1822
    could be brought to examination in a court, the court would put a construction upon these words. I know that the acts of the Viceroy are not subject to examination by a court, but in so far as these words can be construed by a court, it is perfectly clear that a very definite construction will be put upon the word "legitimate." I say that this word has been put in to safeguard and to shelter abuses and oppressions which have lasted so long and are so deeply rooted and so widely spread that it is not found convenient to attack them. I should have thought that the Government, in making this charter for India, would have considered it worth while to write boldly and simply that the Viceroy was to be responsible for protecting the interests of minorities. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State has, for purposes which have certainly not been made clear to this Committee, introduced this limiting word, and I trust that we shall hear from someone on the Front Bench a fuller explanation. We have been told to look into the Instruments of Instructions. It may be legitimate—I beg the Committee's pardon, I should say reasonable—to go to the Instruments of Instructions for guidance upon the point, but why is it necessary to write this word "legitimate" upon the face of the statute I cannot understand it. There is evidently something obscure behind it and, in my view, the Government ought to offer the Committee a further explanation.
    6.30 p.m.
    Lord EUSTACE PERCY: My right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) is always anxious to find some dark conspiracy in a word. I am as responsible for this word as the Secretary of State and I venture to assure him that I have been neither bribed nor corrupted, nor have I been retained by any interest to protect abuses which it is not convenient to remove.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I did not say that.
    Lord E. PERCY: I do not know what other implication is to be gathered from my right hon. Friend's remarks. The remarks to which I wish to reply are those of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Islington (Colonel Goodman). It is to be remembered that this Clause is the instruction which this. House and Parliament are giving to the Governor-General. It lays certain re

    1823
    sponsibilities upon him which will be explained by His Majesty in the Instruments of Instruction. How can we lay on the Governor-General the responsibility of protecting the interests of minorities in words which would imply that it is his responsibility, imposed on him by Parliament, to protect all the interests of every minority? That would be clearly impossible. We want to tell him to protect those interests which he considers to be the important, equitable legitimate and reasonable interests.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: If that be the case, why was not this word inserted in the original Act?
    Lord E. PERCY: I think that in the original Act it was a provision interpretable by the courts, if I remember aright. What must the Governor-General do in dealing with the depressed classes? Clearly the depressed classes as a minority have grievances of the most terrible kind; they have interests of the most important kind. Take, for instance, the Temple Entry Bill. That was a Bill introduced in the Central Legislature for compelling the higher caste communities to admit the scheduled castes to the temples. Was that a legitimate interest of the depressed classes. It was certainly strongly urged. Are you going to leave the Governor-General no discretion as to whether it is wise or desirable to legalise the rights of the depressed classes in such a way as to affect the conduct of Hindu public worship? That is the sort of question which the Governor-General has to decide in considering the word "legitimate." I have some acquaintance with the English language, and it never occurred to me that "legitimate" was not, on the whole, the most appropriate word that could be used for describing a distinction of that kind. When my hon. and gallant Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Mr. A. Somerville) says "A Brahmin minister, because of these words, will be able to prevent the Governor-General from protecting the depressed classes," it is clear, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping has pointed out, that no Brahmin minister or anybody in India will have the interpretation of these words. They are words to be interpreted by the Governor-General in his own discretion and by the
    1824
    Secretary of State as being responsible to this House, and by nobody else at all. The idea that the Governor-General will be hampered in discussions with his Ministers because this word is in the Bill is unreasonable—as unreasonable as it would be to argue, as I should never do, that the Governor-General would be hindered in discussing the Temple Entry Bill with the depressed classes if he were not backed up by some word like "legitimate." It is absurd to suppose that the sort of person whom His Majesty's Government will appoint as Governor-General will be unable to answer any unreasonable interpretation which may be placed upon this word by Indian ministers. That is the reason, I apprehend, for this word. It is simple and straightforward, and I am certain that, whatever word the linguistic purists may urge as an alternative to "legitimate," you must have some such word in if you are to give the Governor-General solemn instructions from Parliament as to his general line of conduct.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: The Noble Lord said that the Governor General would act in his discretion. The Clause says that he shall exercise his individual judgment.
    6.36 p.m.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The Noble Lord is a typical Brahmin, while I am a mere Sudra, only once born, and I trust I shall never be born again. The real point at issue in this Amendment is not what the Governor-General may or may not do, but what this House may or may not do. In this case we reserve to the Governor-General the right to protect minorities, but we reserve to ourselves the right to ask questions about the treatment of minorities.
    Lord E. PERCY: I go further than that. We in this House are the interpreters of "legitimate" in our sole discretion.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask the Secretary of State two definite questions? Is it a legitimate interest of the outcasts that they should be allowed to be converted to Christianity? Would a law which prevented a Sudra from being converted to Christianity, or which made it punishable to be converted to Christianity, passed, it may be, in an Indian Province or an Indian

    1825
    State, be a legitimate interest in which the Governor-General and this House could interest itself and protect the minority? The second question is whether it is a legitimate interest of the Hindu in Sind to be allowed to buy land as freely as any other inhabitant of that Province These are the sort of cases that may crop up in which there would be some doubt as to what was the interpretation of the words "legitimate interests." If a law is passed, it seems to me it ceases to be a legitimate interest of the minority to resent the passage of that law and to say that in spite of it they ought to be treated like human beings. In the same way, if a law is passed in Sind similar to the Punjab legislation, depriving the Hindu of the rights he has enjoyed for generations to cultivate and buy land, does it cease to be his legitimate interest and does the Governor thereby cease to be able to interfere to stop such legislation?
    6.40 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I can assure the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) that the word "legitimate" makes no difference at all. The Solicitor-General confirms me in the view that it has none of the legalistic meaning that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks. The two questions which he put to me would be decided independently of the question whether there were legitimate interests or whether there was not. They would be taken on their merits, and the fact that "legitimate" is in the Bill would make no difference.
    6.41 p.m.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: If that be the case, if the word "legitimate" is not needed, why is it in the Bill? The right hon. Gentleman has stultified his other speech as far as I can understand and contradicted himself. Having consulted his legal advisers, he now says there is no virtue in the word. I never thought there was. It is one of those expressions which, apparently, have a soothing effect on certain people, but does not alter the
    character and meaning of the statute at all. Why do you want to put it in? The Bill is surely long enough without seeking to find excuses for interpolating super-flous adjectives. There is no point in it at all. The right hon. Gentleman ought to accept the Amendment if it makes no difference and if he wishes to give some guidance to the Governor-General to say that, in protecting interests, it does not mean that he is to make himself the champion solely of those interests without regard to any other considerations. I hesitate to make any suggestion of a drafting character lest my right hon. Friend should retort on me with pontifical severity, but I would ask him, if this Amendment makes no difference, to accept it and leave out the word "legitimate."
    6.43 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: My right hon. Friend does not mean to be so, but he is really an unfair controversialist. I was attempting to answer the two questions put to me by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). I was not dealing with the more general point at all, which I thought had been conclusively answered by my Noble Friend the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), as to whether "legitimate" is a good word to put in. I was dealing specifically with the two questions of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. I have nothing to add to what my Noble Friend said. I think, on the whole, it is much beter to keep this word in.
    Major MILNER: May I have a reply to my question in regard to landlords?
    Sir S. HOARE: It will make no difference at all. The word would not be interpreted by the law courts, but by the Governor-General, and he is responsible to this House.
    Question put, "That the word 'legitimate' stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 277; Noes, 69.

    Division No. 77.]

    AYES.

    6.45 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Assheton, Ralph

    Beit, Sir Alfred L.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Bailey, Eric Alfred George

    Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

    Albery, Irving James

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

    Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

    Bernays, Robert

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Blindell, James

    Amery, Ht. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Apsley, Lord

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Braithwaite. J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Brats, Captain Sir William

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Ray, Sir William

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

    Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham-

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham)

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Richards, George William

    Burnett, John George

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Hornby, Frank

    Robinson. John Roland

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward

    Carver, Major William H.

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romford)

    Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C-)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Janner, Barnett

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Chamberlain.Rt.Hon.SirJ.A.(Birm., W)

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Salt, Edward W.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Kirkpatrick, William M.

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Clarke, Frank

    Leckie, J, A.

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Lees-Jones, John

    Selley, Harry R.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Lewis, Oswald

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Conant. R. J. E.

    Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

    Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Llewellin, Major John J.

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dlne.C.)

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Cross, R. H.

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Crossley, A. C.

    MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. C. G. (Partick)

    Soper, Richard

    Curry. A, C.

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Spens, William Patrick

    Denville, Alfred

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)

    Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Dickie, John P.

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Stevenson, James

    Doran, Edward

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Stones, James

    Drewe, Cedric

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Macmillan, Maurice Harold

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Magnay, Thomas

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Dunglass, Lord

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Eden, Rt. Hon, Anthony

    Manningham-Butler, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Elliston, Captain George Sampson

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Thompson, Sir Luke

    Elmley, Viscount

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Meller, Sir Richard James

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Train, John

    Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

    Milne, Charles

    Tree, Ronald

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Morrison, William Shephard

    Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)

    Galbraith, James Francis Wallace

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Munro, Patrick

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    George. Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    White, Henry Graham

    Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Williams, Charles (Devon. Torquay)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Williams. Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Grigg, Sir Edward

    Peake, Osbert

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Grimston, K. V.

    Pearson, William G.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

    Penny, Sir George

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Petherick, M.

    Young. Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

    Hamilton, Sir R.W.(Orkney & Z'tl'nd)

    Peto. Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Hammersley, Samuel S.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Potter, John

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Pybus, Sir John

    Major George Davies and Dr. Morris-Jones.

    Harvey, Major Sir Samuel (Totnes)

    Radford, E. A.

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    1828

    1829

    NOES.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    Milner, Major James

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Banfield, John William

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Blaker, Sir Reginald

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Bracken, Brendan

    Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W.Riding)

    Remer, John R.

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Buchanan, George

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Cape, Thomas

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.(P'dd'gt'n.S.)

    Cleary, J. J.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Kirkwood, David

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Daggar, George

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lunn, William

    West, F. R.

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    McEntee, Valentine L,

    Williams. Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Dixey, Arthur C. N.

    McGovern, John

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Donner, P. W.

    Macqulsten, Frederick Alexander

    Edwards. Charles

    Maitland, Adam

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Maxton, James

    Mr. Paling and Mr. Groves.

    6.54 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I beg to move, in page 8, line 13, after "to," to insert
    "and to the dependants of, persons who are or have been."
    Sir NAIRNE STE:WART SANDEMAN: Is this Amendment quite right? Should it not read, "after 'members' "insert the new words?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN. (Captain Bourne): I think not.
    Sir S. HOARE: I hope the Committee will agree unanimously with this Amendment, It is really a drafting Amendment, but it is meant to safeguard a very important point. The members of the Services were doubtful whether the wording of the Bill covered the rights not only of members of the Services before the operation of the Federation measure but whether it also covered the rights of retired members of the Services and the dependants of past and present members. It was always intended that the provisions should cover past and present members of the Services and their dependants. The case that particularly caused anxiety in the minds of some members of the Services was that of pensioners. They were afraid that under the original draft it might appear that the Governor-General was not entitled to insist upon adequate sums being provided, not only for the Services, but also for the pensions of the- dependants of the various officials. The object of this Amendment is to make quite clear what has always been in the minds of the Joint Select Committee and the Government,
    1830
    that the safeguard is intended to cover the rights of all those persons whom I have just mentioned. Lastly, let me emphasise the point, and I do so with the purpose of reassuring the Services, that the responsibility for seeing that the money is provided for these various Service claims will be upon Parliament and the Secretary of State. The responsibility will be upon our shoulders to see that the Governor-General provides a sufficiency of funds from Indian revenues. I say that with emphasis for the purpose of removing suspicions which have been, quite unnecessarily, raised in the minds of many persons.
    6.57 p.m.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I do not rise to oppose this Amendment, but I should like to ask whether we can be assured that nothing in it implies the creation of any new interest at all, that there is nothing except what is now understood to be the rights of civil servants in the Indian Service—that no new vested interest is created.
    Sir S. HOARE: No, no new vested interests.
    Sir N. STEWART SANDEMAN: May I ask how the paragraph will read with the addition of the proposed words?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Butler): The paragraph will read as follows:
    "The securing to, and to the dependants of, persons who are or have been members of the public services of any rights provided for them by or under this Act."
    Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: May I suggest that it would be much easier to put the word "members" back again, making it read:
    "securing to members and to the dependants of persons who are or have been."
    If the word "members" is repeated it is easier and better drafting.
    Sir S. HOARE: I will look into this question, and, if necessary, put it right at a later stage.
    6.59 p.m.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: As my name is down to a similar Amendment, which I think is better worded than the Amendment of the Secretary of State, I should like to say that we welcome very much the fact that the Secretary of State has now made the position quite clear. It was not clear to a number of people that persons who had ceased to be members of the public service and the dependants of those persons were included in the original wording, and I am very glad that that has now been put beyond the possibility of doubt; but, as regards what my right hon. Friend said about the Governor-General having the power to see that, funds were made available for this purpose, may I remind the Committee that the Governor-General will not be collecting the revenues. He will have no control over the collecting of revenues, and it is quite possible that there may be conditions which may make the collection of revenue very much less efficient than it is at present.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I allowed the Noble Lady to make a reference to that because the matter was mentioned, but we cannot go into a debate on this Amendment.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: I only wish to ask the Committee not to take it for granted that it is perfectly easy for the Governor-General to assure that the funds are there for the purposes mentioned here, because he does not control the collection of revenue and, therefore, it is quite possible that the revenue may not be forthcoming when it is needed.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 8, line 14, after "provided," insert" or preserved."—[Sir S. Hoare.]
    7.2 p.m.
    Mr. D. G SOMERVILLE: I beg to move, in page 8, line 22, after "Kingdom," to insert "British Empire."
    My reason for moving this Amendment is that the Sub-section which gives the Governor-General power to deal as he thinks fit with any action which may penalise or discriminate against imports from the United Kingdom or from Burma does not appear to give him power to deal with any such action which may be imposed against Colonial or British Dominion imports. That seems rather a serious point, as public opinion to-day is so strongly in favour of inter-Empire trade. Should such action be taken against imports from any of our great Dominions, Australia, New Zealand or Canada, or any of our Crown Colonies, it would arouse a prejudice, and in view of the fact that at the Ottawa Conference India was represented, I think that any impediment or any prejudice which was aroused would be very much against the interests of the British Empire.
    7.3 p.m.
    Mr. AMERY: This Amendment is one that, on the face of it, would naturally appeal to most of us in this House, but there is a back history to this question which, I think, will put a somewhat different complexion on it. Feeling in India in the past has been very strong indeed against discrimination exercised in various parts of the Empire against Indians, whether in the stopping of emigration or the exercise of citizen rights or even, as in South Africa, in the limitation of trading rights. There has been continual difficulty as between the Dominions and the British Government by the appeal on behalf of the Indians to exercise a modifying influence and to endeavour in some way or other to modify Dominion policy. It was not until the Imperial Conference of 1921, that, with the full agreement of Indian representatives as well as of the Dominions, the matter was left on the footing that these were essentially questions to be dealt with directly between India and the Dominions. Ever since then the mutual Indian and Dominion relations have been greatly improved.
    The fact that India has the right to retaliate against discrimination of Indian goods and Indian subjects has improved and not deteriorated those

    1833
    relations, and has diminished a certain inferiority complex; it has worked on the whole in the right direction. I believe that would apply equally here. For us in this House who are, after all, not directly concerned with defending Dominion interests to do so would, I think, possibly create prejudice in India, and would not help the improvement of economic relations. Ever since the Ottawa Conference, economic relations between India and the Dominions have been on a very good basis, and there is every prospect of those relations increasing. I think the same also applies to the relations between India and the Colonies. I would suggest that whatever may be the theoretical appeal of my hon. Friend's Amendment, in practice the interests of Empire trade will be better guarded by not endeavouring to include a provision which has a particular historical origin arising from the intimate economic and general partnership between this country and India, and a particular justification in the case of Burma where the Governor will exercise a particular discretion vis-a-vis Burmese discrimination. In these circumstances, I think it is possibly wiser not to press the Amendment.
    7.6 p.m.
    Mr. WISE: I do ask the Committee seriously to consider this Amendment, because if anything could convince me of its necessity the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who has just preceded me would do so. I never thought to hear from him in this House that the trade of the Empire was not our primary concern in this House. I never thought to hear from him the suggestion that the rights of the Dominions should not he safeguarded as jealously as the rights of this country—the right to trade with an Empire which, after all, they did assist to build up. It may be tactless to remind the Government that the British Empire exists; in fact, we have frequently felt that it is so, but I never expected this heresy from the right hon. Gentleman. If it is necessary to safeguard United Kingdom trade against discrimination, is it not just as necessary to safeguard Canadian or Australian trade? We are looking for considerable reciprocal benefit from these Dominions in future, if ever we adopt an Imperial policy, and if we look for these benefits we must give them something in return,
    1834
    some protection. It is true, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, that there have been cases at issue between India and the Dominions, but they have not been cases of trade, but mainly of emigration and of the rights of Indians in various Dominions.
    Australia frequently prohibits the admission to her territory of Asiatic races for reasons which seem good to the Australian Government of whatever political colour, it may be Socialist or United Australia. South Africa has its own problems with the admission of Asiatic population, but are we to allow this new Indian federal government to make these matters, which stand on a plane entirely of their own, the basis of a trade war by their own discrimination? It seems that if there is to be any safeguard at all it must be a reserved province of the Governor-General. We all know that in any assembly of Asiatics tempers are apt to run high, and very frequently they give vent to opinions in which they do not really very much believe. We have been assured on several occasions recently by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State that such responsible people as the Indian Princes do not really mean what they say and, if so, how much more will this elected Federal Assembly be tempted into action which they may subsequently regret? If we are to have safeguards of any kind whatever, this is one of the most reasonable which can be inserted in the Bill, and there is no argument for refusing it if we believe that there is such a thing as the British Empire. If we believe that Imperial interests should be considered and treated by what is still the Imperial Parliament and not the local governing body for the British Isles, we must insert this provision.
    7.11 p.m.
    Mr. DONNER: I wish to ask the Secretary of State whether the Dominions have been consulted in this matter, and whether any of the High Commissioners in London representing the Dominions have been approached and asked what their point of view is in this regard. I was shocked to hear the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery). He said that we were not concerned to defend the interests of the

    1835
    Dominions in this House. That was not the point of view held by the Dominions during the Great War, and it is not, I hope, the point of view that will ever be taken by the Imperial Parliament if any of the Dominions in the British Empire happen to be directly involved with a foreign Power. I should like to know if the Secretary of State would be good enough to answer whether the Dominions have been consulted or not, and what will be their point of view if they are left in the lurch as is now proposed. I submit that to leave them entirely to look after themselves is contrary to the spirit of our Imperial policy.
    7.13 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: Hon. Members must not assume that those who support the Bill are less Imperialist in their sentiments. I rather demur at the kind of insinuations that have been made as to our not being interested in the Empire. Let us get rid of prejudice of that kind. Let us approach the question on its merits. The position is that British trade with India is so extensive, and has existed for so many generations and has conferred so many benefits on India, that it has undoubtedly claimed special treatment. The basis of our proposal is this long partnership between British and Indian trade. That is the justification for the special safeguards that we propose for British trade, namely, no discrimination and reciprocity of treatment. The justification for this provision is this partnership between Great Britain and India, the immense extent of British trade with India and the interests that have grown up as a result of them.
    No such state of affairs exists in other parts of the Empire. The Dominions on the whole have not very much trade with India. It is not a trade which, by any stretch of the imagination, could be compared either in extent or in character with British trade. I suggest to the Committee that on that account the justification for the special treatment of British trade does not apply to Empire trade generally. Secondly, I suggest that it would be a mistaken policy for us to undertake this obligation. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) has just reminded the Committee, the chapter on Indian relations
    1836
    with other parts of the Empire has a long history. As Secretary of State for India I have very strong views as to the justice of certain Indian claims which have not always been accepted in every part of the Empire. I am not going to be drawn into the merits of those controversies, but some of us have entered into those controversies in the past, and justice has by no means been on one side. I say, in view of that history, that it is much wiser to let the future Government of India negotiate their own treaties with other Dominions.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Have there been any discrimination or penal tariffs against any of the Dominions so far, in reprisal for the restrictions on Indian immigration to those Dominions.
    Sir S. HOARE: My right hon. Friend will see at once that the question does not end with tariff restrictions. It would mean, if we deprived India of the power of negotiation in dealing with other parts of the Empire, that India would be without any lever in dealing with questions such as that of immigration.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, I know, but has the tariff weapon ever been used by Indians in retaliation for the immigration dispute?
    Sir S. HOARE: I could not say offhand whether that has been used, but it would be unfair upon India to debar her for all time from using an instrument of that kind. The effect of debarring India from using it would be to arouse very bitter controversy, to create a lot of trouble in India and incidentally to weaken the case for special treatment for British trade and, further, to do what I should have thought every member of the Committee wished to avoid, namely, to draw us into controversies between India and other parts of the Empire. My very strong advice, therefore, to the Committee is not to accept this Amendment, but to leave India free to carry on its own negotiations.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: May I ask—without going into the merits of the question—whether it is not a fact that at present under the Fiscal Autonomy Convention the Secretary of State has power to veto a tariff that would bring India into conflict with other parts of the Empire or

    1837
    would cut across the general line of Empire policy? Does, therefore, the omission of any reference to the Empire in this Clause not mean that we are renouncing a power which we at present possess, and which has come to have some definite meaning since the Empire at Ottawa adopted a general policy of Imperial preference?
    7.20 p.m.
    Mr. RAIKES: I am sure that many Members of the Committee must be disappointed at the reply which we have had from the Secretary of State for India. We do not yet know whether the Secretary of State has consulted the Dominions or not on this matter. Beyond that is the further point that we have been told that this special matter of giving rights to British trade is included because that trade has existed, and been very large, over a very great period of years. I can understand that argument, but is there any reason to suppose that Empire trade with India might not become very much greater in future? Not only that, but Empire trade with India is very much greater than appears on the surface. We have had an intense immigration in recent years into Africa, and the Indians there send their money back into India year by year. If that is not a form of trade, I do not know what it is. We are definitely dealing with a discrimination of Burmese goods or British goods, yet not touching Empire goods. The fact lies before us that we have this power in regard to the defence of British interests, but we have no power in regard to the Empire. It might very well be, in future, that in the early days of their enthusiasm Indian politicians might set up heavy discriminatory trade against the Empire, at a time when many of us believe that the future of this country and of India lies in the economic unity of the Empire. What is the use of talking confidently about the need for the closer relations between Great Britain and the Empire and not taking the one simple and easy step to snake sure that in the future India, the Empire and Great Britain shall have the same privileges in matters of this sort? I very much hope that my hon. Friend will not withdraw his Amendment, but will go into the Lobby in support of it.
    7.23 p.m.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Surely the speech of the Secretary of State is at once revealing and disquieting. It was quite clear why the words "United Kingdom," are to be retained and the words "British Empire" are not included. It is because the Secretary of State desires to give to the new Indian Assembly the power of striking at Canada and Australia through the medium of trade, if they are not satisfied with the treatment of Indians who have emigrated to those Dominions. The Secretary of State seemed even to relish the prospect that in the near future India would have an opportunity of dealing with those delinquent Dominions. That is a serious thing, and it is an extremely dangerous thing that that should be said. This is, in fact, a Bill to give to the Indians the power, among other things, of imposing discriminative and penal trade restrictions against Canada, South Africa and Australia. It is hardly possible to have anything more uncomfortable than that. I agree with my hon. Friend who asked whether the high commissioners have been consulted in this matter. The Secretary of State did not answer that question.
    There is a certain weight in the argument that negotiations, commercial treaties and so forth should be conducted between the Government of India and the individual Dominions; also the question of immigration and so forth can be a matter of discussion and of reciprocity to some extent between them, and the Government in many matters are well advised to stand out, but here you have an Empire Government placing a new power in the hands of a new assembly, a power which they have not exercised up to the present, and that power is capable of being used—as it is intended to be used—to enable each of those Dominions to be proceeded against by India. What will happen when this process begins, and when the new Indian Assembly, if it ever comes into being under this Bill, starts out to punish South Africa for their treatment of Indians in Natal? I imagine that South Africa will feel that we have brought this new evil upon them, and that they will be very much inclined to find fault with the Imperial Government, and possibly will themselves retaliate against our trade.

    1839
    I feel that this Amendment is very well based. I am astounded at the naked candour with which the Secretary of State for India has practically avowed, not merely with sombre acquiescence but with an actual appetite, that the new Indian Government can make use of the new powers to spread ill-feeling and trade restrictions throughout the British Empire.
    7.28 p.m.
    Major HILLS: I would quite agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) if there were reciprocity with the Dominions, but the point he overlooks is that we here have the power to impose certain liabilities upon India and have not the same power to prevent the Dominions from imposing discriminatory or penal legislation against India. We are no longer a mother hen which can control all her chickens. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to see how India would be affected if this Amendment were accepted. India would be prevented from penal or discriminatory legislation against Dominion trade. To some extent India has had this power and has never exercised it, but that we should put it in here so that she never could exercise it would mean that we should still allow the Dominions to discriminate against Indian trade in any way they liked, and not give India any power to retaliate.
    Mr. WISE: If it is the case that India, in fact, has this power under the Fiscal Autonomy Convention, are there not other powers of control reserved to the Viceroy under the Fiscal Autonomy Convention?
    Major HILLS: My point is a very short and simple one. If you say that India is to have no power to retaliate against the Dominions, you are not acting in line with modern Imperial theory. We leave the self-governing parts of the Empire to settle these matters between themselves, and it would be a step backwards if we were to attempt to settle such a matter for one particular part of the Empire. It would be denying to India any chance of reaching dominion status. I cannot conceive dominion status without giving the opportunity, the power to retaliate against another part of the Empire if need be. By the Amendment we should be putting India into a special category and not giving her the power
    1840
    which is essential for her to have if she is to occupy that position in the Empire which I hope she will occupy. Moreover, it would be putting a burden upon India which no other part of the Empire has ever had to bear.
    7.31 p.m.
    Mr. ISAAC FOOT: We object to the Amendment. When the Indian delegates were present they laid great emphasis upon this point, and when they left this country they left behind them a memorandum which was very important, which was signed by men of different creeds and men of different outlook in Indian affairs. In that document they laid the utmost emphasis on freedom in regard to this matter. I regard any further restriction as being a serious invasion of their rights. Whatever their attitude may be towards the Bill, as it stands at present, if this Amendment were carried it would very largely jeopardise the possibility of the Bill being worked. On what ground can we deny to India what is given to the other parts of the Dominions?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: We are doing so, in safeguarding the United Kingdom commercially.
    Mr. FOOT: That has been explained on the ground that there has been a very long commercial partnership between India and ourselves, and the philosophy behind the Bill is that we seek to maintain the legitimate interests that have been established. The argument for the Bill is that during 150 years certain interests have been established, and those interests are not to be put in jeopardy as a result of the Bill. The Amendment seeks to put upon India a liability that rests upon none other of His Majesty's Dominions. To that extent it is untenable and would be repudiated. Let me put this question to those who are supporting the Amendment. Suppose an injustice were done to India by another Dominion and India were never able to invoke this fiscal defence. Why should we deny that right to India? A certain incident arose in the British Empire not long ago when difficulty arose between Ireland and ourselves, and it was thought in this House, and the view was supported by the right hon. Gentleman opposite and his friends that Ireland was doing an unjust thing to this country. At that time as between two different

    1841
    parts of the British Dominions fiscal discrimination was resorted to by this House. That was done in the British Commonwealth of nations, and it was looked upon as being a perfectly legitimate course. What answer can we give to India if we deny to her fiscally the right which only a short time ago this House, by a large majority, thought it fit to exercise?
    Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: Was not the fiscal discrimination against Ireland exercised for the purpose of collecting money that Ireland would not pay otherwise?
    Mr. FOOT: That was the explanation given, and probably it was the right explanation. Let us assume that circumstances like those might arise between India and another part of the British Dominions in years to come. If similar sets of circumstances arose, why should we deny to India the freedom that we want to be able to exercise ourselves? Surely, there is no one in this House who would consent to depriving this House of its power to impose a discriminatory tax if a wrong course were taken by any one of the Dominions. If we hold on to that power, why do we seek to deny it to India and why should the time of the House be occupied in debating Amendments which are intended to limit the self-government which some of us think is limited enough already?
    7.36 p.m.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: The argument has been devoted to the question of the Dominions. There is some substance in the argument against the Amendment when we are dealing with the Dominions, but it is of no substance when we consider the Crown Colonies. The Crown Colonies to-day are a larger market for British goods than India is, and the continued existence of the Crown Colonies is in some respects more important to us than the continued existence of India. I can well see that for the purpose of injuring British trade a conceivably hostile ministry at Delhi—we are only contemplating the case of the possible hostility that might arise—could use their power against us not by attacking us directly but by attacking us through one or more of the Crown Colonies. Therefore, I think there is a case to be met. The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) says that India ought to have this power of discrimination. When he says "India,"
    1842
    what does he mean? Does he mean the transferred government or the reserved government Does he think that India ought to have the right to discriminate against France?
    Mr. FOOT: I should as far as possible give to India the same power that we should have if we thought it right to discriminate against France.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Then the hon. Member is in favour of the transfer of external powers to the Ministry?
    Mr. FOOT: I look upon the limitation of external powers as being a temporary matter. I look forward to the day when under Dominion status India will have not only the power of defence but also control of all her own external affairs.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: The hon. Member has voted in support of the principle that external powers shall be a reserved service. Therefore, he has already voted that India shall not have the power to discriminate against France. Yet he wants India to have the power to discriminate against Canada.
    Mr. FOOT: Do I understand that the hon. Member's interpretation of the Bill is that the Governor-General would not assent to discrimination against France if circumstances arose that made that proposal necessary in the interests of India? Is that his contention?
    Mr. WILLIAMS: It is not a question of the Governor-General assenting. External affairs are not matters on which he has to receive advice from his Ministers. It is no good saying what we have done under the old system of government. We are dealing with present policy. We are considering the conditions in this Bill. The difficulty in regard to the Dominions has been explained, and I believe there is some substance against the Amendment in that respect, but there is no substance in the argument when you come to the Crown Colonies, because they are not free agents, and I do not see in what way the Secretary of State for the Colonies could protect them. We have to do something to protect the Crown Colonies. My view is that the Amendment as it stands is not entirely satisfactory, because it may be necessary to have discrimination against another part of the Empire; but I think it is necessary to

    1843
    have a new paragraph dealing entirely with the situation of the Dominions, and possibly another one dealing with the Crown Colonies, because the circumstances are not the same as in the case of the United Kingdom. In any event it is absolutely deplorable that it should be said that India should be free to do things against Empire countries which they are prohibited from doing against foreign countries.
    7.40 p.m.
    Sir E. GRIGG: The argument in favour of the Amendment has shifted from the Dominions to the Crown Colonies. So far as the Dominions are concerned, they certainly have shown themselves quite able in the past to protect themselves against India, and I doubt whether they would wish in any way to be taken under our wing in relation to the Indian Empire. So far as the Crown Colonies are concerned, I would say to the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams) that if I as Governor of Kenya had been asked whether I wished this Amendment to be included in the Bill or not, I should have said "No." The African Colonies are constantly afraid of the argument that because we have a special position in India we are therefore to do something or other in Africa which on the merits in Africa we would much rather not do. I am afraid that the argument might be extended and that it might be said to the African Colonies: "We have secured for you a special position and special rights in India. We are defending you in the Indian Constitution which we have passed, and on that account we ask you to adopt certain policies or pass certain measures which On the merits in Africa your governments might not desire." It is far better in these matters to leave the different parts of the Empire to deal with each other on the merits of each case and not to complicate the thing by the kind of general protection which has been argued for by many of my hon. Friends in this Debate. I can only say seeing that the special position of the Crown Colonies has been raised, that from my experience of them I would much rather they were not protected in any way under this Clause.
    7.42 p.m.
    Mr. A. SOMERVILLE: One must listen to the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir
    1844
    E. Grigg) on the question of the Colonies with the greatest respect, but I was very much surprised to hear him use the argument which he did. The point raised by the hon. Member for Croydon, South, is of the greatest importance. Under the provisions of the Bill the Secretary of State for the Colonies loses the right to interfere in any question of tariffs or trade regulations as between the Colonies and India. Take the case of Tanganyika. Tanganyika does a large trade with India, especially in cotton, and there are difficulties between them in regard to immigration. Are we to rest content with a position where we allow India to make her own arrangements and bring pressure to bear on Tanganyika in the matter of migration and trade, while the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Government are to have no say whatever in the matter? It seems to me an impossible position.
    Earl WINTERTON: Tanganyika is a mandated territory.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Yes, but to all intents and purposes it is part of the British Empire and ought always to remain so. The Bill provides against discrimination against the United Kingdom. To all intents and purposes the Crown Colonies are part of the United Kingdom. Therefore, if we provide this safeguard against discrimination against the United Kingdom the same arguments should apply in providing safeguards against discrimination against Colonial trade.
    7.45 p.m.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I think the Secretary of State ought to give more consideration to the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams). The Government should reconsider the Clause. There are several ways of losing an Empire and the Secretary of State is choosing a particularly bad way. Just imagine if this Government at any time were to launch out upon some great scheme of Empire development. We were told by the Secretary of State for the Dominions, and then by the Secretary of State for the Colonies, that the whole future of British trade depends upon the development of the Empire. This House has no control over the Dominions, but it has active control over the Crown Colonies. Sup

    1845
    pose, for the sake of argument, that we prepare some very broad scheme to increase trade between the various Crown Colonies and Great Britain, and suppose that the Indians cared to wreck that trade by imposing penal tariffs on the Colonies with which we were anxious to form trade associations. It is a very important matter.
    The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) says that you cannot bind India, and the late Secretary of State for the Colonies says that you cannot bind the Indians. But you have bound the Crown Colonies to this Island, and they have to accept any trade policy that you impose upon them. Why, when you have these people bound, should you allow them to be the target of Indian politicians? There is a great Imperial issue at stake and the House should very carefully consider it. I am not going to touch upon some of the remarks made by the right hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills) who talked about the modern Imperial spirit. I do not quite know what it is. But I will tell the Committee how it will be interpreted in the Dominions and Colonies. First of all the Dominions may say, "You are not a very great country, seeing what very great selfishness you have shown in this matter." That is the first danger—that you are going to have a lot of criticism in the Dominions about this unilateral arrangement with India. But the Crown Colonies are very important indeed. Many of us believe that those centred around Malaya contain one of the greatest markets in the world. You tell the Malayans, "We force you to follow a certain line of trade, but we will not protect you against the discriminating politicians in India."
    Mr. ISAAC FOOT: Why should there be protection given in relation to India and not given in relation to Canada, Australia or any other parts of the Dominions?
    Mr. BRACKEN: The hon. Member with his encylopaedic knowledge forgets one thing. Canada is not bound by anything that we do in this House in relation to trade, but the Crown Colonies are. I know that the hon. Member is a little Englander and that he does not care about these matters, which mean nothing to him. He is anxious to break up the British Empire. But if he is so keen
    1846
    about the rights of various parts of the Empire let me put to him this point. He is much more a representative of the Crown Colonies in this House than he can ever be of India. We are responsible for the Crown Colonies in this House and we can impose upon them any trade measures that we like. They to a certain extent might be the victims. We are anxious to stand up for these Crown Colonies, which may be very seriously prejudiced if the Indian politician is allowed to attack them and they are to act, in a sense, as the whipping boy of the Indian politician.
    hope that the Secretary of State is at least going to answer the question about the Crown Colonies. He ought to consult with his colleague the Secretary of State for the Colonies, because there are very great issues at stake in the matter. When one considers that this is a Government which boasts of its anxiety to develop and build up the Empire, it seems rather absurd at this stage that they should treat the Crown Colonies in such an unfair way. They are not prepared to give the Crown Colonies any rights in India. This is the glorious Imperialism of the Secretary of State for India and of the late Secretary of State for the Colonies. I am sure that many people will greatly regret that the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), who has constituted himself the special caretaker of the Dominions and Colonies, should, because of his desire to support this Measure, prejudice the interests of the Crown Colonies and treat the Dominions in a way that they will not thank him for in the future.
    7.51 p.m.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Those who are supporting the amendment of the Bill have reason to complain of the way in which they are treated by the Government, for any Amendment, whether it is simple or not, is resisted in the same way. It must be the Bill, the whole Bill and nothing but the Bill. From this discussion a very important point has emerged with regard to the Crown Colonies not receiving adequate protection. It certainly seems to any reasonable man that if the trade of Great Britain is not to be discriminated against we should certainly take precautions that trade with the Crown Colonies is in the same position. The Secretary of State said that there was a long history of trade between India

    1847
    and Great Britain, and the same thing did not apply to the Crown Colonies. But this is a new constitution, not dealing with the past but dealing with the future. It is true that it is founded on the past, but that is the only reason for it. It is dealing with the future, and we all hope that the bonds which unite the Empire will become Closer and closer in future. Surely it is desirable that the Governor-General should have these powers to prevent penal treatment and discrimination with regard to the Empire countries and most certainly with regard to the Crown Colonies.
    7.53 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I rise simply to deal with one or two questions that I did not refer to in my speech. Of course, I have been in full consultation both with the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Secretary of State for the Dominions on this matter. These proposals have been published for many months. Indeed they were in the original White Paper. We have received no kind of protest from any of the Dominions. Some hon. Members seem to assume that the Crown Colonies will be at the mercy of an unscrupulous
    Indian Government. As a matter of fact, looking at the fiscal relations between India and the Crown Colonies, it seems to me that the Crown Colonies will have most of the cards in their hands. The markets in Africa are markets of immense value, and I should have thought that in any negotiations the Crown Colonies, so far from being at the mercy of India, would have the best instruments for negotiation in their own hands.
    As for the general question of the Crown Colonies, no better answer can be given than that of the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg). No one is better qualified to speak on the subject than he, particularly because of the fact that he was Governor of a Colony where in the past there have been a good many points of dispute with India. That being so, I hope that the Committee will defeat the Amendment and will adopt the wise course of leaving the Indian Government to deal in these matters with the Dominion and Colonial Governments.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 49; Noes, 274.

    Division No. 78.]

    AYES.

    [7.55 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Apsley, Lord

    Donner, P. W.

    Ray, Sir William

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Reid. David D. (County Down)

    Bailey, Eric Alfred George

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Remer, John R.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Blaker, Sir Reginald

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Bracken, Brendan

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A.(P'dd'gt'n, S.)

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)

    Levy, Thomas

    Todd, Lt.-Col. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

    Burnett, John George

    Macqulsten, Frederick Alexander

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Carver, Major William H.

    Maitland, Adam

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Nunn, William

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Perkins, Walter R. D

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Mr. D. Somerville and Mr. Raikes.

    NOES.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Bernays, Robert

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Albery, Irving James

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

    Blindell, James

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Allen. William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Boulton, W. W.

    Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

    Cape, Thomas

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Assheton, Ralph

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Cayzer, Maj, Sir H. R.(Prtsmth., S.)

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm., W.)

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Batey, Joseph

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-ie-Spring)

    Belt, Sir Alfred L.

    Burghley, Lord

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Clarke, Frank

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Holdsworth, Hesrbert

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Cleary, J. J.

    Hornby, Frank

    Potter, John

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Pybus, Sir John

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Radford, E. A.

    Comant, R. J. E.

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Cooke, Douglas

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Rankin, Robert

    Cooper, A. Duff

    James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Copeland, Ida

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Rickards, George William

    Cove, William G.

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Roberts. Aled (Wrexham)

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Rose Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward

    Cross, R. H.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Daggar, George

    Kirkpatrick, William M.

    Russell, Hamer Field (Shef'ld, B'tside)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Kirkwood, David

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)

    Leckie, J. A.

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Salmon, Sir Isidore

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Leonard, William

    Salt, Edward W.

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    Lewis, Oswald

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Danville, Alfred

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Duspencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

    Llewellin, Major John J.

    Selley, Harry R.

    Dickie, John P.

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark. Bothwell)

    Drewe, Cedric

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Shute, Colonel Sir John

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Mabane, William

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Dunglass, Lord

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-ln-F.)

    Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Edwards, Charles

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine.C.)

    Elliston, Captain George Sampson

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Soper, Richard

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Spene, William Patrick

    Fox, Sir Gilford

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradesten)

    Stevenson, James

    Galbraith, James Francis Wallace

    Magnay, Thomas

    Stones, James

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Strickland. Captain W. F.

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    Maxton, James

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Meller, Sir Richard James

    Tata, Mavis Constance

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Milne, Charles

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Milner, Major James

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W.Riding)

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Train, John

    Grigg, Sir Edward

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Grimston, R. V.

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Morrison, William Shaphard

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Munro, Patrick

    Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

    Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Ztl'nd)

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

    Hammersley, Samuel S.

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    White, Henry Graham

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Paling, Wilfred

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Peake, Osbert

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks)

    Hollgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Pearson, William G.

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Sir George Penny and Sir Walter

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Petherick, M.

    Womersley.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

    8.4 p.m.
    Mr. GEORGE HALL: I beg to move, in page 8, line 24, at the end, to insert:
    "unless such action is proposed as a protection against the subjection of goods of
    1850
    Indian origin to discriminatory or penal treatment."
    As was seen in the discussion on the last Amendment, this paragraph (f) is a very important one, and I should say that,

    1851
    notwithstanding the fact that there is no Amendment for its deletion, those of us on this side do not like the paragraph at all. It gives into the hands of the Governor-General very important powers in dealing with trade. It gives him the right to prevent any
    "action which would subject goods of United Kingdom or Burmese origin imported into India to discriminatory or penal treatment."
    As the paragraph reads, it is very one-sided. It gives to the Governor-General a, very important power, and the purpose of the Amendment is to limit that power in the, event of any discriminatory power being used against Indian goods imported into this country or into Burma. We have had some discussion concerning the import of Indian steel into this country. I can quite understand that, if there was a very large increase of that import, there would be a cry from those who have always advocated the protection of the steel industry that they should have a tariff against Indian steel. Under the paragraph as it stands, if a contingency such as that should arise, it would still give the Governor-General power to restrict any action which might be taken by the Indian Legislature against any action which might be taken in this country in that way, and we say that in those circumstances the paragraph is one-sided.
    No one desires anything like a trade war between this country and India, but at the same time it must be remembered that these important powers are given to the Governor-General, taking out of the hands of the Indians themselves the right to deal with this matter. It was very interesting to listen to the discussion on the last Amendment, when hon. Members wanted the Governor-General to have this power as far as the Dominions were concerned, but there was no suggestion that the Indians should have the right to use the same power against any of the Dominions which discriminated against Indian goods. That is where we stand, and we think the Amendment should be passed. It is really reciprocal. What is good enough for us ought really to be good enough for the Indians, and that is all that the Amendment asks.
    8.8 p.m.
    Mr. BUTLER: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I state at once our point of view on the Amend
    1852
    ment. I quite see the reasons which prompted the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) to move it, but we feel that in its present form it is not satisfactory. We think it is not satisfactory to put in the Statute, in this place, such a declaration that it is possible to imagine a contingency in which this country would adopt some discriminatory action against Indian goods. We do not like to contemplate the possibility of discriminating against Indian goods, and I fear that it might be possible to deduce from the Amendment that it is quite possible to imagine such a contingency in the future, which we do not care to contemplate. It is very important in these matters of trade, which depend so much on good will between the two countries, that no discussion here should encourage the idea that we in this country intend to take the opportunity in future to discriminate against Indian goods, and I should like to be emphatic about that at the outset.
    I think the hon. Member would really find that his views were better met if he relied on the Instrument of Instructions rather than upon the insertion of an Amendment of this sort in the body of the Bill. The Committee will remember that this question and this particular special responsibility were carefully considered by the Joint Select Committee, which, in paragraph 345 of its Report, recommended that particular description should be given in the Instrument of Instructions as to the manner in which affairs were to be conducted under the provisions of this special responsibility. I should like to read the last paragraph of paragraph XIV of the draft Instrument of Instructions, which states:
    "At the same time in interpreting the special responsibility to which this paagraph relates Our Governor-General shall bear always in mind the partnership between India and the United Kingdom within Our Empire which has so long subsisted and the mutual obligations which arise therefrom."
    We should much prefer that hon. Members opposite should not press the Amendment, and in return I should be ready to give an undertaking to consider the terms of the draft Instrument, and if hon. Members do not feel that those particular words or the whole paragraph which must be read in connection with them bring out sufficiently what we have in mind, that we should, when we come to consider the Instrument itself, be

    1853
    certain that this point of view is fully preserved. I hope, in view of that statement, that hon. Members opposite will not press the Amendment, however important they may consider it to be.
    Mr. G. HALL: In view of the statement and the undertaking of the Under-Secretary of State, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    8.12 p.m.
    Brigadier - General Sir HENRY CROFT: This Clause, as the Committee will realise, is one of very great importance, and I only wish it were possible to discuss it at such length as really to go into the whole merits of the case, but I think everyone will realise that it is a Clause which, in a normal Bill, a great Bill such as the Home Rule Bill that we knew, would very likely have had two or three days' discussion, as it involves such very great issues. There are only two points, in order to save time, that I wish particularly to refer to, and the first is with regard to paragraph (c) in the special responsibilities, referring once more to this question of "the legitimate interests of minorities." I frankly confess that, like many other Members of the Committee, I was not satisfied with the statement of the Secretary of State with regard to the word "legitimate," and I want to ask the Under-Secretary of State or the Attorney-General how far this word is meant to go. The Committee is aware that there is a very real dread among Anglo-Indians in India that they may be gradually eliminated from all those posts to which they are best suited and in which they are most efficient. I refer particularly to railways, posts and telegraphs, and I want to know whether the Governor-General in this case of paragraph (c) is only going to intervene if there is some spectacular, wholesale dismissal of this articular minority from their posts and duties, or whether in fact he will be able to insist, unless there is very grave reason to the contrary, that the proportion of AngloIndians employed shall continue as in the past. I shall be very glad to hear that the same proportion will be maintained.
    1854
    Another minority who come under this Sub-section are the Indian Christians, numbering 6,000,000 inhabitants of India. There has already been a foretaste of discriminatory action in the State of Travancore. I only give that as a brief instance of what might conceivably happen to Christians in British India. There are more Christians in Travancore than in any other part of India. They were there before the Moslems came, and they claim to have been there even before the Hindu religion became an organised force. In Travancore to-day the Christians find themselves under definite disabilities with regard to their churches, with regard to their cemeteries, with regard to the freedom of the Press, and also with regard to the number of representatives allowed to them in the local Government. There are in Travancore 16 lakhs of Christians and 13½ lakhs of high-caste Hindus; and yet in the Upper House the proportion of Christians is only seven to 24, and in the Lower House only two out of 17; while the total number of Christians employed in the Government service is only 4,000, as against 18,700 high-caste Hindus. I only give these figures as an illustration of how discrimination against Christians might be found in other parts of India as well. May we be quite certain that, under the Governor-General's responsibility, the safeguarding of legitimate interests will really mean that he will be able to intervene should discriminatory action of any description take place on a larger scale, depriving Christians of their legitimate rights as citizens of the province or under the Federal Government?
    The other point to which I desire to refer, and which is much more important to the people of this country, is with regard to paragraph (f), which deals with discrimination or penal treatment in trade, on which we have just heard a word from the front Opposition bench. The hon. Gentleman, in moving his Amendment, said that what he wanted was reciprocal treatment. I wish he had meant what he said, and was really prepared to see to it that there should be a reciprocal basis. I want to ask the Under-Secretary whether this responsibility of the Governor-General includes power to prevent any attempt to harass traders in selling what they desire to sell to willing buyers, such as occurred under the boycott. On the occasion of

    1855
    the famous boycott we found, although it is hard to believe it, that a picket—a single individual—was allowed to squat down outside each shop where British textiles were sold, and no effort whatever was made to prevent that disgraceful interference with the liberties of the subject. May we be assured that under this responsibility the Governor-General will prevent any similar denial of freedom to traders in selling what they desire, and to private citizens in purchasing what they need?
    I regret the whole tone of the responsibility, and for that reason I shall vote against the Clause, because really the responsibility is purely negative; it amounts only to the prevention of measures for penalising British goods. Many of us protest very strongly against this miserable policy, which is so foreign to the whole tradition of British Imperial rule in the past. After all, we are writing to-night on a clean slate, and there is nothing, if we have the will to do it, provided that it be just and fair, which we are not at liberty to do in this Measure. Why is it not the declared function of the Governor-General to do everything in his power to promote the spirit of partnership which is spoken of again and again in the White Paper, in the Report of the Joint Select Committee, and in the Instrument of Instruction? Why is it that the note struck between the two countries is not that of the spirit of partnership between the two countries in promoting inter-Imperial trade between Great Britain and India on a reciprocal basis? Surely, if we wish to interpret that ideal of partnership which is laid down as the basic principle of the White Paper, it is not a question of India and Great Britain discriminating against each other; we should be considering how we can discriminate in each other's favour for the benefit of the whole Indian people and for the benefit also of the people of this country, who in days gone by carried on, to their mutual advantage, such a colossal trade.
    The Clause speaks, as we heard on a previous Amendment, of the responsibility of the Governor-General in preventing discrimination against the goods of Great Britain or of Burma, and I wish once more to protest that this Bill is so out of keeping with the whole spirit which we thought emanated from Ottawa.
    1856
    Surely, if it was thought desirable to lay down certain terms with regard to British trade, we ought to try to bring the whole Empire in. If we cannot bring in the whole of the Dominions, surely we ought to use all our power and influence to bring the Crown Colonies of the Empire into the scheme, so that we may have the greatest possible amount of mutual trade and prevention of discriminatory action against trade in any part of the Empire where we have any control. Under the so-called fiscal convention, the Secretary of State had power to intervene, but, as far as we in the House of Commons know, he very rarely did intervene. I am not speaking only of the present Secretary of State, but of recent holders of that office. Even since I have been in the House, before the War, I can remember, 25 years ago, the whole of the ranks of the extreme defenders of Liberalism, and also, I think I am right in saying, such members of the Labour party as were then in the House, standing up and insisting that there should be no high tariff measures in India as against Lancashire, not with any apology, but because it was believed that that was our right—a right which I hope to prove in a moment.
    The Secretary of State did not intervene even last week, or when the last Indian Budget was being prepared, and in that Budget, while we have been told to rely upon good will we find that the duties on Lancashire textiles still remain at 25 per cent. Thus we start this new story in India with what appears to be a stabilised penal duty—for so it is regarded by Lancashire—against all these goods, and especially those which are peculiar to Lancashire. I want to point out, however, especially to hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway, that it is quite conceivable that Indian fiscal measures mightbe directed against, say, a whole range of high-class textiles, and in reality that might fall almost entirely upon Lancashire, because, as hon. Members know, it is the competition of the cheaper Japanese goods that we have to face particularly in that quarter. Surely now is the opportunity, while we are discussing this Bill—which in many respects, I am afraid, will have to be reconsidered, and possibly recommitted—to ask His Majesty's Government to consider once more the whole question of British trade interests. It is our one opportunity,

    1857
    when we may start this great new chain between India and ourselves as commercial friends with the nearest possible approach to a common arrangement. The two or three gentlemen who are left in the Liberal party have gone out to sustain their strength. Even their permanent semi-centurion is not here to take part in the Debate. They have been deliberately declaring that it was desirable, when the Bill was produced, that it should be on the basis of mutual free trade, or as near as you can possibly get to that, always allowing each country to impose revenue duties. Where are those sincere champions of that doctrine now? They used to put up a tremendous fight. I used to think their insistence on the Excise duty equalling the Customs duty was almost unjust, but it has all gone by now. Here we are deliberately agreeing to the idea that the best we must do is not to take steps if there are penal duties against us.
    This responsibility as stated in the Clause is a surrender of Britain's indisputable right to trade on favourable terms in a great market which she has created and developed and protected and which she still intends to defend, possibly for many years to come. As one who has taken for many years a very great interest in the question of Lancashire trade, if I read these fateful words correctly, applying to them such knowledge as I possess with regard to the true attitude of Lancashire's trade rivals in India, I can only say that to my mind they are the death rattle of Lancashire's trade in India. Think what it means. We are abandoning for all time the right established for more than a century to sell our goods in this territory which is under our flag on terms which we should naturally expect, and we are relying on that good will which the overwhelming majority of the Legislative Assembly only last month registered against in a strong form of repudiation, that good will which the Indian Budget just published has announced with shattering effect is not so present in the breast of India to-day that they are going to reduce their duties from the very high level of 25 per cent., though it was generally believed in Lancashire that there was every hope under the agreement that they would be reduced to 20 per cent. Under this paragraph we go crawling like whipped dogs to the Governor-General and we whine
    1858
    and say, "Please do not let India discriminate against British goods. Do not let them treat us worse than they do foreign countries." It seems to me that this is a betrayal of all that we stand for and all that we have ever done for British trade. As one who went into political life purely and simply because I believed that Mr. Joseph Chamberlain's ideal of promoting the whole strength and unity of the Empire on a reciprocal basis was something worth giving one's life to, and realised that many other men were moved similarly, I cannot understand the spirit which to-day says that Britain has no right to demand reciprocal free trade measures in India.
    I have some legitimate reason for talking about British rights. Have we not given India credit cheaper than that which any country in the world possesses except ourselves, and has not that been a great Imperial gift to the whole construction of the civilisation of India, that vast country whose great seaboard has been saved from aggression by the might of the British Navy, whose frontiers have been defended on many occasions by British arms under British leaders, a country from which famine and disease, with their toll of scores of millions of lives, have been purged by British genius and British engineering; and now we are to go cringing and begging that Britain's traders should not all be kicked out of India, because that is exactly what the new spirit embodied in this Clause amounts to. This paragraph (f) announces a new epoch. It is a retreat -from Imperial trade. It is the first time that we have ever really consented to march away from our great destiny, which means so much to the common interests of this country and of India.
    I know that the Secretary of State is not alone responsible for this policy. I know that he was assisted on the Select Committee by a majority which included elder statesmen who were too old to take any part in the War in 1914 and who now, 21 years afterwards, are still young enough to sign their signatures to a report which, in my opinion, if this Treaty is carried out, means practically the decimation of Lancashire's trade in the days to come. I beg the Committee to think not once or twice but many times before consenting to the spirit that is embodied in this Clause.

    1859
    I know we may have one or two opportunities, but not many, later on of raising the whole question. When we see the devastating effects on Lancashire since we first allowed ourselves to slip away from the idea of the mutual promotion of trade, since we allowed this great and increasing wall of tariffs to be raised since Mr. Edwin Montagu's time against Lancashire goods, when we see the savage attack upon our markets by the very efficient competition of Japan, if the best that we can ask for any country in the British Empire when we have the chance of starting afresh is that we shall not be penalised, and if we are going to forsake the idea that the subjects of His Majesty of whatever colour and race will go forward on a reciprocal basis, do not let us mock ourselves further by talking of this Assembly as the Imperial Parliament.
    8.34 p.m.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: We are all trying to work to a time-table, and I shall be as brief as possible. I hope, when the time comes when we have to examine the measure of time consumed by various sections of the House, we on this side will be exonerated from any blame for consuming an undue share of the Committee's time. It is necessary to make that point, because we are now only at Clause 12, and I believe, according to the time-table, we should be somewhere around Clause 40. On behalf of myself and my friends we repudiate altogether any responsibility for the very exaggerated amount of time devoted to these early Clauses. I do not say they are unimportant—they are very important—but we really must try to keep a little closer to the arrangement.
    Sir H. CROFT: I think that, if the time is counted up to-day and in the last two sittings, the hon. Gentleman will find that there is not much in it.
    Mr. JONES: I am prepared to allow the mathematicians to work out the problem themselves, and I shall be satisfied with the result that they evolve. I want to say a few words on the question that the Clause stand part. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell), in moving the first Amendment in our name to-day, recalled to the Committee that there are some eight
    1860
    points with which this Clause deals. Those are points reserved as special responsibilities for the Governor-General in future. If we put them together they cover an extraordinarily wide field of administration and of legislation. There is very little left outside the confines of these eight points if you put them together. There is "peace or tranquility" which is a pretty wide term to begin with, and then there is the question of "financial stability" which also touches administration at all sorts of points. Who can precisely define what is connoted by the phrase "interests of minorities"? There again you may be touching at innumerable points in your administration and in your legislation. Then there are the interests of the "members of the public services." They touch at various points, and so I could go through the whole list.
    Our first objection therefore is that we consider that these eight points disclose far too great a lack of trust and of faith in the good sense of the future legislators in the Indian central parliament. If we are going to give some measure of self-government to these people, it can only be successful in the long run if we start them off in the belief that we think they are capable of exercising the functions which would devolve upon them. But all the time throughout this Bill we find it is a question of giving with one hand and taking away with the other. Look at the phrase "in his discretion" which appears over and over again, and which appears here, not in that particular form, perhaps, but in a collateral form, namely, "to exercise his individual judgment," which practically means the same thing. A friend of mine counted the phrase "in his discretion" for me as a matter of interest, and I believe that the phrase appears in the Bill over 200 times. This shows how we hedge round the freedom of the Indian people in the exercise of these new responsibilities. May I put another side to this problem which perhaps has not been put before. Hon. Gentlemen who have made some study of Indian political history in recent years, and indeed not in recent years only but in more remote years, will know that from time to time difficult and perplexing religious problems have come up through the medium of political legislation. For instance, take the question of

    1861
    child marriage. There is a perplexing problem, and that and other similar problems have had their root, as it were, in religious conceptions which give rise to very violent animosities from time to time. What is our history with regard to legislation that touches upon those problems? Broadly, it is that we have, generally speaking, avoided touching them lest by touching them we may give rise to these communal differences and disagreements. Let me take paragraph (c) of the Clause:
    "the safeguarding of the legitimate interests of minorities."
    Suppose a Bill dealing with child marriage were proposed by the Government of the day in the Central Parliament, it would be easy for the minority violently opposed to such legislation to create such a row about it as to make it inevitable for the Governor-General to say, "I cannot allow this Bill to go on, because, if I do, the peace and tranquillity of India will equally be upset." My point is that by drafting somewhat loosely these eight items in this way we are putting the Governor-General in a position of transcendent difficulty. I have said repeatedly in this House—and I repeat it again, and hope that hon. Members will forgive me for so doing—that my conception of the Governor-General in India in future is not a conception of a person who will be perpetually poking his nose into those local concerns. I want him to be there as the representative of His Majesty the King and nothing more. I do not want him to be constantly putting his finger into this and that pie and interfering here and there, and thereby bringing upon himself criticism that ought properly to be reserved to the administration itself. If he is going to butt in—I cannot use a better expression than that—to prevent this legislation or that because he apprehends some danger to the peace or tranquillity of India, or to minority interests, or because he sees some financial interests are going to be prejudiced thereby—if he is going to have that special responsibility thrust upon him, he will be brought inevitably right into the centre of the arena of public controversy. It is the greatest injustice you can do to the Governor-General or to the Governor, who, after all, are there to represent His Majesty the King, to bring them in to the centre of
    1862
    their own controversies, peculiar as they are in character.
    Therefore, my hon. Friends and I take a very strong objection to the wide way in which this Clause has been drafted. It places upon the Governor-General the duty of interfering on innumerable occasions, and it will be easy for designing people—and I am sure that no one will controvert this—who want to prevent certain legislation from being carried through the Central Legislature to manufacture the occasion that will make it impossible for the Governor to withhold his interference. Once you do that the other side will say, "There is the Governor-General butting in again to protect people's interest other than ours." That is the gravest possible injustice to the office of the Governor-General, distinguished as it must be in the new circumstances in India.
    We have indicated also our view concerning the question of reciprocal trade. Let me repeat once more that we do not believe that you can safeguard Lancashire's interests by any artificial method such as hon. Members below the Gangway and on the opposite side of the House sometimes suggest. The only way of safeguarding the trading interests of Lancashire with India and of India with Lancashire is along the path of good will and understanding. There is no other way. If you give the Governor-General the right to interfere when he presumes that the Indian Legislature is doing something which is inimical to the interests of Lancashire, then we say, and we are entitled to say it on grounds of logic, that the Indians also ought to be able to look to the Governor-General to protect the interests of India in the event of their being prejudiced by any action taken by this country. The Under-Secretary asked us to believe that it is impossible to contemplate that this country would designedly seek to carry through this House legislation which would discriminate against India. I accept that statement; but he is not equally ready to assume that India will not discriminate against England. Those Indians who were members of the Joint Select Committee invited us to believe that it was never their intention to use any power they may possess of discriminating against Lancashire—
    Sir H. CROFT: They are doing it.
    Mr. JONES: The statement they made to us was that it was not their desire when they had been granted self-government to discriminate against Lancashire. I accept their statement. But if you assume, as you do in this Clause, that India may use the power to discriminate against Britain and give the Governor-General the right to intervene, then I say that India has an equal right to expect you to give to the Governor-General the power to intervene in the contrary case, whenever it may be presumed that this country may discriminate against Indian goods. It should be applied both ways fairly. We have stated our view over and over again that in our judgment you destroy very largely the moral value of this gesture you are making to the Indian people through this legislation by hedging round the powers of self-government which are granted to the Indian people. If you give self-government give it frankly. If you do not want to give self-government do not call it self-government, but say that it is more in the nature of limited self-government. You cannot call it self-government as long as it is possible for the Governor-General, in a thousand and one ways, to interfere with the full expression of the Indian people.
    8.49 p.m.
    Mr. WISE: The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) objects to the Clause on the ground that it erects the Governor-General into the position of a permanent dictator, with the most unlimited powers, to use the hon. Member's alliterative phrase, to be perpetually poking his nose into every form and activity of the future Indian Government. Our objection to the Clause is exactly the opposite. We think that the Clause is as hollow a sham as are any other safeguards contained in the Bill. We think that all these special responsibilities of the Governor-General in fact mean nothing at all. He is entitled to use his individual judgment to interfere on a certain number of occasions, to safeguard the rights of minorities, in connection with any trade discrimination, and to preserve peace and tranquillity, but he has no means of knowing when and how he can interfere. He is deprived of any form of advice other than that of the Government with whose activities he is supposed to interfere, and it is hardly likely that he is going to receive advice from ministers who have so misconducted
    1864
    the affairs of the State that he has had to step in at once. One cannot imagine any ministerial body acting in so self-sacrificing a way.
    Indeed, the Governor-General will be left high and dry with no means of knowing when peace and tranquillity are in danger until the whole of India is blazing with revolution. Probably the first intimation he will have of the outbreak of disorder is when hand grenades are thrown through the windows of the viceregal lodge. The first intimation of trade discrimination will be after the discrimination has taken place. Under the Clause he has no power of anticipation. To be perfectly logical, if India is fitted for self-government these powers are unnecessary. If they are fitted only for limited self-government they are fit for complete self-government. In any case it is going to fail whatever you may do, and you may just as well try the experiment out properly and let it fail properly. Those who hold that some form of control is necessary are surely logical in insisting that the control shall be effective. Unless the Clause is amended so as to ensure that the Governor-General shall have more chance than his own powers of imagination give to find out if there is anything wrong, or we can get some promise of a subsequent amendment, there is no other course left to us but to oppose it. Surely it is possible that the relations between the Federal Assembly and the Governor-General may be as confidential as the relations between the Chamber of Princes and the Secretary of State. It may be that the Governor-General will be just as ignorant of the proceedings in the Federal Assembly as the Secretary of State appears to be of the proceedings of such an assembly as took place recently.
    Mr. BUTLER: May I ask the hon. Member if he realises that the meeting of the Chambers to which he refers was confidential. That is if he is referring to the recent meeting in India.
    Mr. WISE: When this question was raised in the House I can remember the Secretary of State saying extremely acidly that my right hon. Friend had sources of information to which he himself had not access, which must have meant not that the proceedings were confidential but that he did not know.

    1865
    We must in fairness to the Secretary of State assume that sometimes he says what he means and that the sentences he uses in the House are to be construed as they are read in the English language. He definitely told us that he had not access to the same sources of information. It may be that the Governor-General, possibly not so great a man as the Secretary of State, may be equally deprived of access to the necessary sources of information. Indeed, it is more than probable that he will be, especially when we consider the enormous field he has to cover. In the field of trade discrimination alone there may be multitudinous instances in which trouble will arise between the Indian Federal Assembly and the Government of this country.
    Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite succeeded in extracting from the Under-Secretary a promise that a, particular Amendment which they had in view on the question of discrimination on our side against Indian trade would be dealt with, not by the simple process of accepting the Amendment, but by monkeying about with the Instruments of Instruction afterwards. I would remind hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that they are on a path of some danger in accepting that policy. We are enthroning in India a permanent government. It is not a question of our having any further control over their social legislation. We are abandoning that for good and all with the exception of these extremely vague powers which are being given to the Governor-General. That permanent government is not the enlightened democratic government which hon. Members opposite would like to see. It is, in fact, an oligarchy, a plutocracy of the most extreme kind, and more than likely it is going to be very neglectful of the conditions of the industrial workers in India.
    If that be so, and if the process of industrialisation spreads in India—which is surely going to be the case—we may find ourselves faced with the necessity for special duties against goods produced by coolie labour. It may well be that duties will have to be imposed on Indian goods coming into this country which are not imposed on goods coming from other Dominions, not because it is a question of discrimination but simply because we cannot expose our people to open com
    1866
    petition with labour which is working under social conditions humanly impossible in this country. The moment we start imposing such duties, trouble is bound to arise with this new Indian Federal Assembly, and the whole thing will be thrown back at once on the Governor-General who has no real powers to deal with the matter. On paper he has most arbitrary power but in practice almost none. When it comes to safeguarding the rights of minorities the Governor-General has no power whatever. The minorities have no power of making representation to him, except by public petition which would, presumably, have to go through his ministers, and hon. Members who know the habits of Asiatic ministers know well enough, that no inconvenient petition would ever get to the Governor-General through them.
    Then, as I have said there is the question of peace and tranquillity. Under previous British Governments we succeeded in maintaining peace and tranquillity because there was a centralised authority which had control of all the forces necessary to maintain peace. We are to have no such centralised authority when the worst happens under this Clause. The Governor-General is deprived of all means of maintaining peace and tranquillity other than the army which is the last instrument that ought ever to be used for the enforcement of peace. Armies are not meant for quelling civil disturbance but for the protection of nations against outside enemies, and throughout our Imperial history we have always endeavoured to use our army for that purpose. Under the Bill, all means of preserving internal order other than the army are removed from the Governor-General and put under the control, actually, of the Provincial Assemblies. They are not even under the Governors.
    When it comes to the pinch, when law and order have to be enforced with what is the Governor-General to do it? With his own office staff? With the Criminal Investigation Department? He will be deprived of the use of police, railways, posts and telegraphs and all other aids to the maintenance of law and order. Yet we say to him that he is responsible in the long run for the preservation of peace and tranquillity. It is a contradiction in terms. Surely we cannot entrust the head of the State—and that is what the

    1867
    Governor-General will be—with these responsibilities and, at the same time, deprive him of the means of fulfilling them. It is for these reasons that I feel that the Clause as it stands must be unacceptable to the Committee. It lays down powers but gives no means of enforcing them. It omits any question of an advisory council to assist the Governor-General as to when he is to exercise his powers. In fact it is a muddle from the first word to the last and the sooner we dispose of it the better. It is true that if this Clause were removed it would probably wreck the Bill, but as this is a bad Bill I do not think the Committee ought to be deterred by that consideration.
    9.0 p.m.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I note that among the special responsibilities of the Governor-General is "the protection of the rights of any Indian State." By "Indian State" you mean "Indian Prince." It is a special responsibility of the Governor-General to protect the rights of the Indian Princes, although the Indian Princes themselves form part of the alternative responsible body. But, among all the special responsibilities of the Governor-General, there is no responsibility for the protection of the inhabitants of the Indian States against their Princes. Yet the alternative protection, is protection of a body over which these Indian Princes themselves will dominate.
    9.1 p.m.
    Miss RATHBONE: I am not sure why my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle - under - Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) assumes that the words of paragraph (g) which include in the special responsibilities of the Governor-General "the protection of the rights of any Indian State" necessarily exclude the rights of the subjects of the State. The subjects are surely part of the State, and I, at any rate, wish to assume, in what I am about to say, that the words do bear that interpretation. It is I think unfortunate that although we have been for hours and weeks discussing this Bill and although we shall be spending the greater part of our time up to Whitsuntide in considering it in every kind of relation as it affects the Princes and as it affects the people of British India, there is hardly a single
    1868
    Clause in it, except this one, which enables us to consider how the Bill and the arrangements of which it forms part will affect the welfare of the people of the Indian States. The obligation of this country towards the Indian States has always been mainly an obligation to protect the Princes but that has carried with it, as Lord Minto pointed out
    "a certain degree of responsibility for the general soundness of their administration."
    Lord Minto also said:
    "It naturally followed that the Imperial Government would not consent to incur the reproach of being the indirect instrument of misrule."
    We ought to ask ourselves: How is that responsibility of ours affected by the Bill and especially by this Clause? In what sense will the Governor-General interpret his responsibility, and how will he be able to exercise it? The Under-Secretary a few days ago tried to reassure my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, when he raised the question of how the Bill affected the subjects of the States, by telling us that it made no difference at all. I suggest, however, that it does affect that question. It affects it to some extent directly and formally but to a much greater extent indirectly and actually. Take first the direct effects. The Under-Secretary I think will admit that Sir Kailas Haksar generally admitted to be one of the ablest men in the service of the States, is a pretty good authority on how this Bill will affect the interests of those whom he serves. In an article in the "Twentieth Century" Sir Kailas Haksar investigates the whole question of the effects of the Bill upon the States and what he says reads very curiously after what has happened during the last few days. After enumerating several other ways in which the Bill improves the position of the States, he says:
    "It seems an implicit irony of the situation that certain provisions of the Joint Parliamentary Committee's report which have been most strongly attacked by British Indian politicians … actually provide more effective safeguards of the rights and interests of the States than any provision for the specific incorporation of which in the coming Act their imaginative caution or intuitive prudence had led them to ask."
    He goes on to say:
    "One of the statutory responsibilities of the Governor-General himself will be the

    1869
    'protection of rights of any Indian State' "—
    the very paragraph that we are discussing—
    "The force of the word any ' is apt to be overlooked … Its implication seems to be that any State may satisfy the Viceroy that its rights are in danger of being adversely affected, and he would have to extend to it the necessary protection … It will, therefore, depend upon the States what measure of protection they can extract out of the proposed constitution … There is here alone a safeguard more extensive than anything implied in the special declaration of the Chamber of Princes or in the 'essential or important conditions 'formulated by them to be satisfied by the constitution."
    Then we see that this very distinguished exponent of the views of the Princes himself admits that their position is strengthened under this Bill, and especially under paragraph (g) of this Clause. In the same article he gives a rather illuminating instance of the way in which the position of the Princes will be strengthened. He says:
    "At present the States are helpless against the inroads of mischievous persons in British India. Under the reform scheme it would be possible for the States to strengthen their position considerably in the matter of inter-provincial migration."
    In other words the Bill will make it even easier than at present to prevent the healthy wind of publicity blowing upon the States and prevent the people of the States forming contaminating contacts with progressive forces of British India. I think that that shows that in the eyes of Sir Kailas Haksar this Bill does make a difference in the relations between the States and the Governor-General and a difference to the advantage of the Princes. I pass to the indirect and real, as opposed to the legal and formal, effects of the Bill upon the position of the Princes which are, I think, much more serious. I want to ask how this particular function of the Governor-General is going to be affected in the interpretation that the Governor-General would have to put upon it by that remarkable statement which the Secretary of State made last Tuesday, when he told us that one of the things about which the Princes were dissatisfied was that there was no mention of their treaties and sanads in the Bill, and that though they were not in the Bill it was intended to reaffirm them in the most formal and solemn manner.
    1870
    I know that I must not discuss the treaties and sanads at length because they are outside the Bill, but it is surely relevant to what we are discussing to ask how they affect the situation, if they do change it, because clearly the treaties and sanads are part of the rights of the States which the Governor-General is to be entrusted with the duty of enforcing. I sometimes wonder whether Members of the Committee realise quite to what the treaties and sanads pledge us. I am not going to enlarge on that, but in a sentence may I remind the Committee that one of the things incorporated in the treaties and sanads is the paramount power and duty of protecting the Princes from their rebellious subjects, even if rebellion is caused by misgovernment or by desire for another form of Government, subject to certain conditions, such as that after very flagrant and gross misgovernment or bitter discontent the Princes will be asked to take such steps as will allay that discontent before the paramount power introduces armed force into the country to suppress the rebellion. I think that that fact makes it a very serious thing that we should be reaffirming these treaties. It may be said that it makes no difference because among honourable people treaties are always inviolate, but, as a matter of historic fact, is it true that treaties last for ever and are eternally binding? It is one thing to let these treaties, many of them made over a century ago, go on indeterminately until there is some strong reason for putting an end to them. It is quite another—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now getting far beyond the Clause.
    Miss RATHBONE: I was coming immediately back, and in a dozen words I should have reached again paragraph (g) of this Clause.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must skip the few words between what she was saying and the time of her reaching the Clause again.
    Miss RATHBONE: There is a new situation now. We are making a bargain with the Princes, and the reaffirming of the treaties is part of the bargain. I will not enlarge on that, but it is clear that when you make a bargain there are two sides to it. Hitherto the Princes have

    1871
    leant on us, and in future we are going to lean on the Princes. The Princes themselves have shown the importance they attach to getting the treaties and sanads reaffirmed. Suppose the Governor-General tries to exercise the particular responsibilities which we are laying upon him of protecting the interests of any State, and suppose he does it in the sense, not of protecting the Princes, but of protecting the peoples of the States against oppression by the Princes. At every turn this bargain will be thrown in 'our faces—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is again getting beyond the Clause.
    Miss RATHBONE: I am trying to keep strictly within order. The point I am making is that by this Clause and paragraph (g) in it, we are making it one of the special responsibilities of the Governor-General to protect the interests and the rights of the Indian States. The point in my argument is that it will be difficult for the Governor-General to exercise that responsibility when it is a question of protecting, not the Princes against their people, but the people against the Princes.
    The CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Member has just shown that she is going beyond the scope of the Clause. This Clause deals with protecting the rights of the State; and not with the question of disputes or quarrels within those States.
    Miss RATHBONE: The Governor-General has a duty to protect the rights of the States. Is it not the case that and of the rights of the States which the Governor-General in his capacity as Viceroy has been bound to protect is the right of the Princes to be protected against the rebellion of their subjects, and does not that carry with it a counter right of the subjects to be protected against oppression by the Princes?
    The CHAIRMAN: That certainly does not arise on this Clause, because the Clause does not refer to the treaties in any way.
    Miss RATH BONE: I will say no more about that, and pass to another point. I suggest that the whole working of this Sub-section will be affected indirectly by
    1872
    the necessity that the Governor-General will be under of conciliating Princes. If hon. Members ask themselves why it is that the whole Bill, not merely the federal part, but the provincial part, is to depend upon the Princes coming in—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Lady is getting far beyond this Clause, and I must ask her to keep her remarks quite strictly to the Clause, and not to discuss either the treaties or the Princes. All we have to deal with in this particular Clause is the States as States.
    Miss RATHBONE: I find it very difficult to conceive of the States as States if I am not allowed to mention either the Princes of the States or the subjects of the States. What is a State?
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Lady must not discuss my Ruling. I am afraid that her difficulty is that she wants to say something which I cannot allow her to say.
    Miss RATHBONE: I am honestly trying not to evade your directions but to discuss the problem. It seems to me the real problem raised by this Subsection—
    The CHAIRMAN: The problem as the hon. Lady sees it is something which I say has nothing to do with this Clause.
    Lord E. PERCY: Is it not true that this Sub-section deals only with the relations of the States with other units in the Federation, and it is that which the Governor-General has to protect and that alone?
    Miss RATHBONE: If that is the case I should very much like to know why the Clause does not say so. After all, we in this Committee are not dealing with the report of the Joint Select Committee, we have finished with that, and are dealing with the Bill, the whole Bill and nothing but the Bill.
    The CHAIRMAN: At the moment, only with one Clause.
    Miss RATHBONE: Yes, one Clause, and I am dealing with one Sub-section of one Clause, and with the words of that Sub-section as they are written in the Bill, and not with the gloss which the Noble Lord wants to put upon them. The Sub-section says that part of the duties of the Governor-General is to protect the rights of any Indian States; it does not

    1873
    say merely in the relations of a State to other federal units, but the rights of any Indian States. I do not want to detain the Committee, and I do not want to override your Ruling, Sir Dennis, and so I say no more than this. I would beg you to extend a little latitude in this matter. I am not going to try to override your Ruling, but do remember this—throughout all these Debates we are dealing with the men and women of British India and with the Princes of the Indian States and there are people in the Indian States besides the Princes—
    The CHAIRMAN: I am very sorry, but I must warn the hon. Lady that she is definitely disregarding my repeated Rulings.
    Miss RATHBONE: I am sorry, I did not mean to do that, and I will say no more. I have felt a great responsibility in this matter, because this is one of the few parts of the Bill where it did seem possible to raise a matter which lies very heavily on my conscience and which should lie heavily on the consciences of every man and woman in this House, because we must consider what we do as it affects human beings, men and women, and not merely as it affects thrones and princes.
    9.20 p.m.
    Mr. HAMILTON KERR: The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft), in discussing the future trade relations of India and Great Britain, stressed the spirit of partnership. I would like to say, in passing, that Lancashire has given a magnificent example of good will. Thanks to the efforts of the Lancashire Indian Cotton Committee, Lancashire has more than doubled its purchases of Indian cotton in the last year. The hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Wise) stressed what he regarded as the inadequacy of the Governor-General's powers to prevent commercial discrimination, and I would like, in one or two minutes, quite fairly to examine those powers. Let us imagine the Constitution in being, and the Governor-General with his three advisers delegated to their separate subjects. Let us imagine some obvious case of discrimination to arise, and some hostile Hindu Minister coming to the Governor-General and saying, "Your Excellency, unless you reduce the Army Budget by so many
    1874
    crores, my party will unfortunately be compelled to pass 100 per cent. duties against Lancashire cotton goods." According to the hon. Member for Smethwick, the Governor-General would have no warning of such a move, but Subsection (4) of Clause 17 lays upon both the Minister and the appropriate secretary the duty of warning the Governor-General of such a possibility. Therefore, he would have had previous warning, and what my hon. Friend pictured in his interesting speech would not occur.
    A case of obvious discrimination inspired by political motives therefore comes under this Clause, paragraph (f) "dealing with the prevention of action." Likewise, paragraph 345 of the Report of the Joint Select Committee lays down the principle that the Governor-General would have power to act where discrimination was threatened in fact if not in form. If, for instance, 60 per cent. of certain commodities imported by India came from this country and the remaining 40 per cent. from other countries, a crushing duty against that commodity would obviously affect this country in fact if not in form.
    Therefore, What field lies open to any hostile Indian Minister to discriminate against Lancashire's goods? We know that the majority of the federal revenues are derived from import duties, but in the Federal Assembly about 80 per cent., I believe, of the subjects under discussion will be under the purview of the Governor-General and, therefore, nonvotable. The Assembly will merely have power to discuss the remaining 20 per cent. of the subjects. Therefore, the only opportunity a hostile Assembly would have of pressing for these increased duties on Lancashire goods would merely be the excuse of increased Army expenditure. It is for these reasons that I think the Governor-General does, in fact, possess powers of considerable importance, which are designed to meet any eventualities which might from time to time arise.
    9.24 p.m.
    Mr. BUTLER: I think it is not unreasonable that I should try to answer some of the points raised in the course of this interesting Debate on a very important Clause in this Bill, and I think it would be not unreasonable if, in view of the necessity to progress, we attempted to come to a decision, without, of course,

    1875
    wishing to check anybody who is vitally interested in the Clause from expressing an opinion. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) raised a question in connection with the special responsibility for minorities. He raised the point in connection with the Anglo-Indians, and asked whether there was any provision for securing that the posts which Anglo-Indians have held in the Services would be secured to them in future by the power which is vested in the Governor-General in his special responsibility for minorities. I think this point is actually met in paragraph XI of the Instruments of Instructions, which instructs the Governor-General to interpret his special responsibility as requiring him to secure:
    "a due proportion of appointments in Our Services to the several communities, and he shall be guided in this regard by the accepted policy prevailing before the issue of these Our Instructions."
    That means that the Governor-General will be instructed to keep as part of the system of appointments in the services in India the arrangements in force before the operation of the Act, and I may remind the Committee that the Government of India has already issued a scheme under which a definite proportion of these appointments in the services are reserved for this particular community. The hon. and gallant Member raised also several points which we had discussed and which my right hon. Friend had answered in previous consideration of the Clause, and I think the best course for the Committee to take in attempting to understand the special responsibilities would be to read the paragraph previous to the one I have just read, which attempts to define what we mean by the special responsibilities.
    The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) described the need for special responsibilities as implying a great lack of trust on our part in Indian statesmen. We have always maintained that this scheme is one which will be a partnership between our two countries, and this scheme of special responsibilities has been understood from the very start in our discussions with representatives of Indian opinion over these several years, and I think the spirit in which these special responsibilities will be worked is as fully understood by Indian statesmen as it is in reality by the hon. Gentleman
    1876
    himself, and as it certainly is by the Government. The hon. Gentleman was frightened lest the Governor-General in intervening in this sphere should tend to block social reform. The Government have repeatedly stated that one of our main objectives in this Bill is to give an opportunity for Indians themselves to tackle some of those abuses which, there is no doubt, are in existence in India at the present time, and which are engrained in the life of India and in the social and religious customs of India. I cannot, therefore, believe that it would be in the interests of the Governor-General or of this country that he should deliberately block social reform. The hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Wise), whose speech I think was answered so excellently by the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hamilton Kerr), raised several important points. I think his most searching point of attack was that the Governor-General would be deprived of advice and have no power of anticipation, and that he would live in ignorance, and therefore all his powers would be of no avail. This point was successfully answered by the hon. Member for Oldham in saying that under Sub-section (4) of Clause 17 full information would, in fact, be available to the Governor-General.
    The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth raised the question of whether boycotting would be able to be checked under the provisions of this Bill. I think probably that this question falls more under special responsibility (e) than under special responsibility (f). In fact, it really falls to be considered more in detail under Part V, Chapter 3, of this Bill; but I will say in general terms at this stage, without wishing to anticipate the discussion on that particular chapter, that if intimidation and economic boycotting involve discrimination, as they would, the words of the Amendment which the hon. Gentleman wished to move would be unnecessary. I am sure that this very important point will be considered when we come to that chapter. It is our belief that rather than attempt to achieve this end by coercion, we should attempt to do so by the spirit of good will. I think it would be suitable if I said that in the latest trade figures it may be noticed that the policy of good will has had a very considerable success. It may be noted that the imports from the United Kingdom into India were

    1877
    higher last year than in any year since 1930 when they reached the figure of 74 crores of rupees. Although I realise the very great importance of the cotton trade, which is so well represented by so many right hon. and hon. Gentlemen in this House, we must take into consideration the general importance of Indian trade. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth referred to myself and my friends on this side of the House as whipped dogs.
    Sir H. CROFT: I am sure that the Committee will bear me out when I say that I never implied that to the hon. Gentleman. I said that we have got to go to the Governor-General as whipped dogs to ask that we are not kicked out of India.
    Mr. BUTLER: Whether that is so or not, I feel proud that the hon. and gallant Gentleman should have added to the description "ignoble pygmies," that of "whipped dogs." I am sure that all the members of the Joint Select Committee, including one friend of the hon. Gentleman himself, who comes from Lancashire, who agreed to the special responsibility being inserted in the Bill—I hope that he will not refer to his friends in such opprobrious terms—realise that this safeguard is inserted because we have the interest of Lancashire at heart. The right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) and the hon. Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) raised the questions which will arise out of special responsibility (g), the protection of the rights of any Indian State. I think probably, the Committee appreciated the intense feeling of the hon. Lady with regard to the possibilities of social reform in the Indian States, but that subject does not arise on this Clause. The question here is the operation of the special responsibility of the Governor-General in the ministerial field. In any case in which ministerial action would be likely to infringe or jeopardise the right of an Indian State the Governor-General would have the right to intervene. The affairs of Indian States come, of course, under the question of paramountcy, which would be outside the consideration of the Committee at the present time, and any other social question in which the hon. Lady was rightly interested would depend on the accession of a State in regard to
    1878
    any particular item in the federal or the concurrent list.
    Miss RATHBONE: Do I understand then that it would not be in the power of a State or of a Prince to apply to the Governor-General for help in repressing rebellious subjects?
    Mr. BUTLER: Not under this Clause and under sub-head (g) of the Clause, which deals solely with the case where some ministerial action would affect the right of an Indian State and the Governor-General would consider it necessary to invoke one of his special responsibilities and intervene. It would be possible under paramountcy to intervene in the affairs of an Indian State, but it would not be in order on this Clause to discuss that. In conclusion the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Wise) used a phrase that this Clause was muddled from the first word to the last. Without wishing in any way to criticise the speech of the hon. Member for Smethwick, I think what he said would apply to the words which he addressed to the Committee rather than to the Clause which we are considering. The hon. Member was fully answered, but when he debated the questions of peace and tranquillity and said that the Governor-General would have no opportunity of controlling the various other pieces of machinery necessary to ensure peace, he forgot, in his enthusiasm, paragraph (h), which deals with
    "the securing that the due discharge of his functions with respect to matters with respect to which he is by or under this Act required to act in his discretion, or to exercise his individual judgment, is not prejudiced or impeded by any course of action taken with respect to any other matter."
    That gives him an opportunity to intervene in cases where his special responsibility for peace and tranquillity may be threatened. After this explanation I hope that it may be possible for the Committee to come to a decision on this important Clause.
    9.36 p.m.
    Mr. A. SOMERVILLE: The Under-Secretary has just said that the scheme before us represents a partnership and the provisions in this Clause some of the conditions of that partnership. May I ask him whether he regards it as a full and permanent partnership, or does he agree with the hon. Member for Bodmin

    1879
    (Mr. Isaac Foot), who looks upon safeguards as temporary?
    9.37 p.m.
    Mr. RADFORD: I think, as a Lancashire Member, who has consistently supported the Government on this Bill, that the Clause which we are now considering is probably about the most important in the whole Bill. It is beyond question that in this House and in Lancashire there is great dissatisfaction that greater provision has not been made to safeguard the interests of British trade and of Lancashire's trade in particular, and I think I am right in saying that in the whole Bill the only mention of trade is in the particular duty which is charged upon the Governor-General in this Clause, in the following words:
    "The prevention of action which would subject goods of United Kingdom or Burmese origin imported into India to discriminatory or penal treatment."
    I apologise to the Committee for prolonging the discussion, but I have sat throughout the Debate and I certainly cannot give a silent vote on the Clause. The first question which I have to ask myself as a representative of the people of Lancashire is, have our Government power to insert additional safeguards for British trade? I believe that is a fundamental point, and one in regard to which I gather my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) and I take different views. For the last 13 years our trading relations with India have been bounded and regulated by the Fiscal Autonomy Convention which was recommended by a joint select committee in 1919—another joint select committee, and the predecessor of the last one—and they recommended definitely the fiscal convention which de facto, as the lawyers say, conferred fiscal autonomy upon India.
    Whether those gentlemen were right and were wise and statesmanlike in the recommendation they then made is not for me to say, but they were men of great eminence, seven of them being Members of this House and seven Members of another place. They unanimously recommended a fiscal autonomy convention. One thing is certain however, and that is the trail of ruin and misery that the Convention has left in Lancashire. Reference has been made to the necessity for good will between Lancashire and India as being more sure and certain for
    1880
    the preservation of trade than any provision that could be inserted in an Act of Parliament. Reference was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth to the fact that Lancashire in particular had lost a tremendous amount of trade which she used to enjoy in India. Whereas Lancashire's exports of cotton piece goods to India in terms of sterling were, for the four years ended in March, 1914, £32,000,000 per annum, for the year ending 31st March, 1934, the figure was only just over £6,000,000. As far as yardage is concerned, the figure of 2,600,000,000 yards of cotton goods was the average delivered during the same four-year period, whereas for the year ended 31st March, 1934, the figure was only 426,000,000 yards.
    Lancashire is already gravely dissatisfied with the position, but we have to be realists, and in my humble way I shall endeavour to be a realist. I ask myself whether the Government have power to do anything more in this Bill for the trade of Lancashire. I am afraid that under the terms of the Fiscal Autonomy Convention the Government have not the power. [Interruption.] I am putting my view. If it is not possible for the Government to do more in the way of limiting what tariffs the Indian Government may put on British goods, we are back in the position of to-day. I ask myself whether this country, and my county, will be worse off under the Government of India Bill than under the Fiscal Convention, and I have come to the conclusion that, although I would like to see additional safeguards if they were possible, this country's trade with India, and the trade of Lancashire, are likely to be better and on a surer and safer foundation under the terms of the Bill than under the terms of the Fiscal Convention.
    The CHAIRMAN: I hope the hon. Member will remember to keep within the terms of the Clause, and that we are not discussing the whole wide question of Lancashire trade with India.
    Mr. RADFORD: With great respect, I am endeavouring to the best of my ability to show why I feel myself justified, as a Member for Lancashire, in voting in favour of a Clause which has caused great dissatisfaction in that

    1881
    county. We have been told to rely on good will, but so far as Lancashire is concerned she might well use words similar to those of Rudyard Kipling:
    "If sacrifice be the price of Indian good
    will,
    Lord God we have paid in full."
    We see the empty mills of Lancashire and the empty warehouses in Manchester. In my own division I know managers, warehousemen and clerks who used to occupy sound positions in the trade with India, but who are now thrown out of employment. They get no benefit from insurance schemes, and there is no doubt about their distress. So far as the future of our trade is concerned—I will cut this as short as possible for the sake of other Members of the Committee—there are sound reasons outside that of good will why we can look forward to better trade between our country and India in the future. During the Debates on this Bill I have never heard the fact referred to that the balance of trade between Britain and India has entirely altered during recent years. There was a time when India was far and away Britain's best customer, but that day has gone. Taking the year before the War and ended March, 1914, we sent £78,000,000 worth of goods to India and only bought £38,000,000 from India. That was a tremendous balance in our favour. The figures now are practically balanced at £35,000,000 each way. Great Britain. and particularly the Empire, are far and away India's biggest and best customers. We have something there which is more tangible than the mere question of good will. If our representatives in their dealings with a self-governing India, when this Bill has been passed, sufficiently emphasise to the representatives of the Indian Government the balance of trade, the way it has changed from a preponderating one in favour of this country to one which is self-balancing, and point out that we are continuing to buy from India as much as we bought 20 years ago, when India was buying more than twice as much from us as she is doing to-day, we shall have a solid argument which will go far to influence the Federal Government to see that Great Britain has a better share of India's trade than she enjoys at the present time.
    8.46 p.m.
    Mr. BAILEY: I will not keep the Committee very long. The last thing I want to do is to give offence, but we Lancashire Members have a duty to those we represent, and I would rather discharge that duty and offend everyone here, if necessary, than feel that I had failed in my duty to the people of Lancashire. When two Lancashire Members rise to support the policy of the Government on this question, I think it is high time that one Lancashire Member spoke what I believe firmly to be the mind of the county on what the Government are doing. I listened with interest and sympathy to the observations of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) on the question of good will. T agreed with those observations. I listened with interest and sympathy to the observations of the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. H. Kerr), and I listened with sympathy also and great interest, because his division adjoins my own, to the hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Radford), on good will. The commentary on that good will is our declining trade with India from £36,000,000 to £6,000,000 in cotton goods. That is the reward of our good will. It is an earnest of the good faith we may expect in the future, and some of us are not prepared by mere phrases to harmonise our conscience to what we believe is going to mean the disappearance of that remaining £6,000,000 of our cotton trade.
    I agree that good will is the keynote of this question, but under this Clause the contention of some of us and the contention of the majority of the people of Lancashire, who have learned by bitter experience from the mistakes of politicians is this, that good will will not have a chance under this Clause. We believe that the people of India have plenty of good will, but we do not believe that the Indian politicians have good will. We believe that it is the politicians who are going to wag the tail of the dog. That is what will invalidate the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Rusholme in regard to the balance of trade. If the Indian politicians could act far the whole of India, which is impossible, a bargain might be struck, but where you are dealing with embittered politicians, who will sacrifice their own countrymen rather than do any good to Lancashire trade,

    1883
    the vague and ambiguous safeguards in this Clause are quite insufficient.
    The Under-Secretary was good enough to say that the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Wise) was muddled. I have always found that when you cannot answer your opponent, the next best thing is to abuse him. I would not say that the speech of the Under-Secretary was muddled, but I think it was charmingly ambiguous. He availed himself of Parliamentary skill and evaded in an admirable way the salient points that some of us have been trying to raise. He said that the appropriate time to discuss this question would be on some other Clause, but when we come to that Clause I suppose we shall be told that we have missed our opportunity. It is a delicate game of shuttlecock, by which the Government are always able to postpone or to advance the time when they are going to give an answer. I should like to put one simple proposition. No boycott in India would succeed so far as the good will of the people of India is concerned. The boycott succeeded because until Lord Willingdon was sent out intimidation was allowed. One of the proofs of that statement is the fact that there were innumerable lawsuits shortly after the boycott, in which complaints were made that Indian goods had been passed off as Lancashire goods.
    If the people of India had wanted to buy those Indian goods instead of the boycott of Lancashire goods, it would not have been necessary to pass off those Indian goods as the very goods that were supposed to be unwanted by the people of India. It was only when the ordinance prevented intimidation that the boycott lapsed. That is the exact opposite to what is commonly put forward by the advocates of the Government. The boycott did not collapse because of renewed good will on the part of the Indian politicians. It collapsed for the very good reason that we allowed good will to have free play, and for once in a way we told the Indian politicians where they had gone off the line. If we had not done that the boycott would have been going on to-day. That is why some of us are very anxious that this Clause should not be left in its present vague state.
    1884
    We have heard much about the instrument of instruction. No words could be designed more to confuse language. It is extraordinarily obvious that in practice it would be almost impossible to know when to exercise the discretion. We have penal treatment going on to-day, and every one in Lancashire knows it. The 25 per cent. tariff is not, bringing revenue to India, but it is depriving the vast mass of the Indian people of goods that they want. If you dare not stop that penal discrimination now, how will you dare to do it when this misguided Measure is on the Statute Book? One hon. Member has said that if you could govern the world by phrases, the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) might be dictator. If we could govern the world by phrases this Bill would work, but not otherwise. If the Government are anxious to protect Lancashire, if they are anxious to secure our right to safeguards, why should they not put the thing clearly in the Bill so that we should not have to ferret it out. Why should they not say in unambiguous language what we regard as a cardinal point, namely, that discrimination against British industry, whatever be the intention of those who discriminate against British as well as Indian goods, whether it be by boycott or legislation, is not to be allowed, and that measures will be taken to stop it? Why not put that in plain English so that in the future no doubt can arise as to what are our intentions?
    It is impossible to see how the Governor-General can act, looking at this Clause. If we do not know that, are the people who are going to be called upon to act in great difficulties in the future likely to know? Certainly not. I believe that this desertion is not for the benefit of India. If it were for that, I would sacrifice Lancashire tomorrow, because Lancashire has no right to have prosperity at the expense of India. If I thought that this thing we are doing was for the good of India, if I thought that what we were offering in status, dignity or freedom was for the real good of India, I should be the last person to support the line that we are taking on these benches. But I say that we are forging a weapon which has been used brutally and which will be used brutally to torture the people of Lancashire at

    1885
    the expense of the people of India. That is what the Government are doing.
    We who represent Lancashire would indeed be failing in our duty if in the strongest possible terms we did not condemn what is being done. I know that we are only a handful in this House. I know that the Government can call their legions to vote US down. The only thing they Are anxious to do, apparently, is to vote us down as quickly as possible. But one thing they cannot do. Lancashire will never forget and never forgive what the Government are doing. Never forget that the majorities here may one day melt away like smoke. I hope they will not do so. Never forget that a Government backed by a large majority And able to impose its will in face of reasonable criticism will one day possibly have to pay the price. I am not in the least
    anxious that it should, because I might be part of that price. At any rate, I should have the satisfaction of knowing that while I was here I had done my duty. Without saying any more I have stated the argument why we in Lancashire are strongly opposed to this Clause. It is not a question of our selfish trade interests. We are opposed to it because we believe that our opposition is based upon a desire for the common good of India and of Great Britain alike, and if I have in any way elucidated that point I make no apology to the Committee for having occupied a certain amount of its time.
    Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 244; Noes, 76.

    Division No. 79.]

    AYES.

    [9.57 p.m.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Albery, Irving James

    Cross, R. H.

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Davidson. Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Apsley, Lord

    Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Assheton, Ralph

    Denman, Hon. R. P.

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Ballile, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Denville, Alfred

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Dickie, John P.

    Kirkpatrick, William M.

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Leckie, J. A.

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Dunglass, Lord

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Belt, Sir Alfred L.

    Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony

    Lewis, Oswald

    Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

    Bernays, Robert

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Boulton, W. W.

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Llewellin, Major John J.

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Emrys-Evane, P. V.

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Flelden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Mabane, William

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Buchan, John

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Graves, Marjorie

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

    Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)

    Magnay, Thomas

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Cassels, James Dale

    Grimston, R. V.

    Mandar, Geoffrey le M.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

    Chamberlain.Rt.Hon.Sir J. A.(Birm.W)

    Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston)

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Chapman, Col.R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Milne, Charles

    Cochrane, Commander Hon, A. D.

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

    Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J,

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Morrison, William Shepherd

    Cook, Thomas A,

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Cooke, Douglas

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Munro, Patrick

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Hornby. Frank

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Copeland, Ida

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Salmon, Sir Isldore

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Peake, Osbert

    Salt, Edward W.

    Thompson, Sir Luke

    Pearson, William G.

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwin)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Penny, Sir George

    Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).

    Tree, Ronald

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L

    Potter, John

    Selley, Harry R.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Wallace. Sir John (Dunfermline)

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Shute, Colonel Sir John

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Pybus, Sir John

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Radford, E. A.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western files)

    Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-ln-F.)

    Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine.C.)

    Watt, Major George Steven H.

    Rankin. Robert

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    White, Henry Graham

    Held, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Whyte, Jardine Bell

    Rickards, George William

    Soper, Richard

    Willi, Wilfrid D.

    Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Spens, William Patrick

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Steel-Maitland. Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Stevenson, James

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward

    Stones, James

    Young, Rt. Hon.Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

    Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

    Sir Frederick Thomson and Mr. Blindell.

    Russell, R. J. (Eddlsbury)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Maxton, James

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool)

    Milner, Major James

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Everard, W- Lindsay

    Nann, William

    Bailey, Eric Alfred George

    Fleming, Edward Lascelles

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Banfield, John William

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Batey, Joseph

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Ray, Sir William

    Burnett, John George

    Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Cape, Thomas

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Remer, John R.

    Carver, Major William H.

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Cleary, J. J.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Cocks. Frederick Seymour

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Kirkwood, David

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A.(P'dd'gt n, S.)

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cripps. Sir Stafford

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Todd. Lt.-Col. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

    Critchley, Brig.-General A. C.

    Leonard, William

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Logan. David Gilbert

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Daggar, George

    Lunn, William

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    McGovern, John

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Donner, P. W.

    Macqulsten, Frederick Alexander

    Edwards, Charles

    Mainwaring, William Henry

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Mr. Paling and Mr. Groves.

    CLAUSE 13.—(Provisions as to Instrument of Instructions.)
    10.6 p.m.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I beg to move, in page 8, line 39, to leave out "the draft of."
    This is the first of four Amendments standing in our names, the most important of which is last of the series, which, in line 42, proposes to leave out from "Governor-General" to the end of the Sub-section. If these Amendments were carried, the Clause would read:
    "The Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament any Instrument of Instructions which His Majesty may issue to the Governor-General."
    1888
    We want to see, not a draft instrument, but the final form in which the Instrument of Instructions must issue from the Secretary of State. The second and third Amendments are consequential upon the first, and I will apply myself to the fourth. As it now stands, the Clause would involve that, whenever any subsequent Government, by virtue of changed circumstances, might desire to effect some change in the Instrument of Instructions, it would have to do so, and it could only do so, after an Address had been presented to the House of Commons and had been approved by it. I want to be perfectly frank with the Com-

    1889
    mittee. I am thinking in terms of a Government of my own political complexion, and I am assuming that such a Government might desire, in view of certain changed circumstances that might have supervened in India, to effect an alteration in the Instrument of Instructions.
    We argue that our Government should be entitled to effect such alterations as it thought fit, but under present Parliamentary circumstances, whatever the complexion of the Government in this House might be, there would be another Government of another complexion across the way, and so a Labour Government, in seeking to make any alteration in the Instrument of Instructions, would be held up, not by a majority in this House, because that, of course, would be of its own complexion, but by a majority at the other end of the corridor, which has been, and I suppose always will be, opposed to a Labour Government. We say that that is an unfair barrier to impose upon a future Labour Government. In effect, it works out in this way, that the Tory party, not through its work in this House, but in another place, would be able to exercise a permanent bar upon the freedom of a Labour Government in its relation to the administration of affairs in inclia, and it is in order to emphasise the right of a future Government to freedom in this matter, that we propose these Amendments.
    10.11 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) has raised two points. There is, first of all, the point about the draft Instrument of instructions, and there I can reassure him. The Instrument of Instructions is in draft because it is a prerogative document issued by the Crown, and this and another place must therefore describe the document that they have before them as "the draft," even though in actual practice it may be the final form. There is, therefore, if I may say so to the hon. Member, no substance in that point. The bigger point is as to whether the Instrument of Instructions and future amendment should be subject to parliamentary sanction or not. It is a point which we have touched on more than once before, and I submit that in the case of a type of document as important as this Instrument of Instructions obviously is, there
    1890
    should be the safeguard of parliamentary sanction.
    Obviously, from the speech to which we have just listened, there is in the minds of hon. Members opposite the possibility of making drastic alterations, and if that be so, surely there should be parliamentary sanction behind them. Changes as big as that ought to be undertaken only by the medium of an amending Bill or by formal Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. Indeed, it is interesting to remember that more than once the Select Committee attached importance to the safeguard of parliamentary sanction, for the reason that in these Instructions there are several paragraphs—the paragraph, for instance, about the gradual development of responsible government and the paragraph about the Indianisation of the Army that are regarded as most important from the Indian point of view; and so far as I can remember it was Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru who himself originally suggested, in view of the importance of the Instrument of Instructions, that there should be Parliamentary sanction behind it. That being so, we could not accept the Amendment, and once again I must reaffirm the need of having behind a document so comprehensive and so important as the Instrument of Instructions evidently is the parliamentary sanction of a Resolution of both Houses.
    10.15 p.m.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Could the right hon. Gentleman enlighten us a little further on this aspect? I understand that the Instrument, of Instructions can only be varied by an Address from both Houses—that there would have to be a majority in a single division in each of the two Houses of Parliament to justify any alteration, or any serious alteration, because I presume that the entire Instrument could be redrafted and altered in 50 different ways, and a single division in each House of Parliament would carry this out. It is not a question of every Amendment having to be passed through, as in the case of a Bill. The right hon. Gentleman seems a little to associate these two processes, but nothing could be more different than the process we are now going through, of passing a Bill through Parliament, and a mere vote by a temporory majority in the House of Commons. They are two entirely

    1891
    different things. The right hon. Gentleman talks about an amending Act—if there were large alterations in the Instrument, there would be an amending Act. But there is no means of enforcing that on the Government of the day in possession of a temporary majority. They can redraft the Instrument of Instructions in such a way as completely to transform the emphasis and character of the Bill, and a single division, a majority of 20 or 10, will be enough in this House. What happens in the House of Lords? This is a very important point, and raises very far-reaching constitutional issues. I wonder how it strikes the Lord President of the Council, who, I see, is in his place. Both Houses of Parliament have to concur in the alteration; you have to have a majority in the House of Lords. The right hon. Gentleman is very proud of his majority in the House of Lords at the present time.
    Mr. ISAAC FOOT: You were hoping for it.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am always hoping for the support of the respectable elements in our community in defence of the main assets and glories of the British Empire. Sometimes those hopes are not fully borne out by events, and the hon. Gentleman has the pleasure of exulting on those occasions. The point that I want to put to the Government, the Secretary of State, and the Lord President, turns on this veto of the House of Lords. As far as I make out, the passing of an Address by the House of Lords is not a matter covered by the Parliament Act—I mean that it is not a matter amenable to the procedure of passing the Address through the House of Commons in three successive Sessions in the space of not less than two years. It is not a question of a mere time veto; it is an absolute veto that is being provided in this respect in the House of Lords. The absolute veto of the House of Lords is being revived in this matter. I see that a, great constitutional revolutionary wishes, with legal authority, to instruct us, and I gladly give way.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: The right hon. Gentleman will agree that you can pass a Bill to abolish the House of Lords.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: That has nothing to do with the fact, because we have not passed that Bill yet.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Under the Parliament Act you can. If they refuse in a matter of this sort, you can abolish them, and then they could refuse no longer.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The hon. and learned Gentleman talks about abolishing the House of Lords, but it is very much easier said than done. The House of Lords are like a great many things that he wishes to abolish; they have a vitality and power of resistance that has never yet dawned upon our budding Socialist lawyer. The point that I put to His Majesty's Government is this: At the present time we are entrusting a first-rate function, one of the most responsible decisions, to the House of Lords without even the Parliamentary time limitation which was enforced by the Parliament Act, thus reverting to the pre-Parliament Act situation. That is what is called strong meat. It seems to be a formidable assertion for the Government to make, and particularly for the Lord President, who has so long refused to do anything to reform the Second Chamber in accordance with the Schedule to the Parliament Act. An unreformed Chamber, vulnerable as it has been found to be in the past, happens to be working with you at the present time in your policy. This body is to be put into the forefront of politics and, if in 15 months time a Socialist Government is in power, it proposes to remodel the Instrument of Instruction and to do various other things under the Bill which are to be done by a simple Address to the Crown.
    I suppose the Conservative party are invited to lay comfort to their souls by-the fact that they can rely upon a veto—none of your whittled down Parliament Act vetoes. This is a good pukka veto. Are not the Government deluding their followers? Are not they inviting them to take their stand upon a most precarious and most insecure platform? Is it not clear that it would be most unfair to ask the House of Lords to take the responsibility of standing up against a widespread Indian demand supported by a majority in the House of Commons? In that case, where is security at all? Whichever way you look at, it, whether you take the point of view of reverting to the earlier form of veto which was abolished 20 years ago—[An HON. MEMBER: "By you."] Certainly, and

    1893
    no Measure that I have supported do I feel has better stood the test of time than the Parliament Act. It is true, as the hon. and learned Gentleman said, that it is open to the Socialist party, if they obtain a majority, immediately to introduce an amending Bill cutting out the whole of these safeguards or any other provisions in the Measure that they do not like, and run it under the Parliament Act for three Sessions in two years and it becomes law automatically. At the same time they can carry a Bill abolishing the House of Lords altogether, but still two and a half years is a certain security. The point that I invite the Government to pronounce upon is the old unlimited veto of the House of Lords, and I hope we shall have an authoritative answer from either the Lord President or the Secretary of State before we go much further in the Debate.
    10.25 p.m.
    Earl WINTERTON: I was under the impression, until I heard the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) that nobody but the Socialist party objected to this proposal. I say that in no wounding terms about that party. They have every reason, holding the views they do, to object to it. It is true, as the Secretary of State has said, that, from the part India has played in this matter as represented by delegates at the Round Table Conference, they are in favour of this proposal. At the commencement of the right hon. Gentleman's speech I think I was in rather the position of agreeing with him, but I soon saw that it was by no means the case. I thought for a moment that I was back in the 1906 Parliament in opposition on the benches opposite, and that the right hon. Gentle-roan, with that command of argument to state the facts which has always distinguished him, was arguing in favour of the Parliament Act, and then I gathered that he was in fact doing so. In fact, in doing so he was embarrassing his own family party by arguing in favour of the Parliament Act, and for the first time almost since these Debates began they were reduced to silence.
    Is it not really rather useless for my right hon. Friend to draw the distinction which he endeavours to draw? It is a
    1894
    simple proposal and is no trap. It simply says that before there could be an alteration of the Instruments of Instructions it should be put to the resolution in both Houses of Parliament. There is no mystery about the platter. It is true that the Parliament Act did not abrogate the right of the other House to pass an Address, and there is no need to ask the Government to answer that question. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, considering his responsibility with regard to the Parliament Act, should desire to ask the question, and I would take this opportunity of saying that the majority of the Conservative party differ entirely from his views on the effects of the Parliament Act. If he does not agree with that he had better go accompanied by his henchman, Sancho Panza—
    Mr. BRACKEN: As the Noble Lord has referred to me, or has pointed in a geographical direction towards me, perhaps I may be allowed to suggest to him that I shall be no more successful in following the right hon. Gentleman than he will be in achieving the place he wishes to occupy upon the Front Bench.
    Earl WINTERTON: If the hon. Gentleman objects to my description of him, which seemed appropriate, as Sancho Panza, I withdraw. With regard to the statement he has just made, I have not the least hesitation in describing it as entirely inaccurate and without any foundation of any sort. Knowing the hon. Gentleman I do not suppose that he is prepared to withdraw it.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I am perfectly willing to withdraw it, but if the right hon. Gentleman tries to be offensive he must expect a response.
    Earl WINTERTON: My hon. Friend apparently suffers from the same disease from which his right hon. Friend the leader suffers—if I may so describe his relationship with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping—in that he is very willing to make wounding and injurious remarks about others but is very indignant when they are applied to himself. I will not pursue the matter any further. I do not think that the right hon. Member for Epping has any

    1895
    justification for saying that this is not a real safeguard against an attempt of a government to alter these excellent instructions without a proper appeal to the constituted authorities, that is, this House and the House of Lords.
    10.31 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: In a sentence may I reply to the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). Resolutions of this kind are not subject to the Parliament Act. The right hon. Gentleman talked as though it were some revolutionary proposal in our constitutional system. This is the ordinary practice which has been in operation for years; and there is nothing new in it at all.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I desire to ask leave of the Committee to withdraw the Amendment and to say that we do not propose to move the next two Amendments but, with your permission, to take a Division on our Amendment to leave out from the word "Governor-General" to the end of the Sub-section.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I beg to move, in page 8, line 42, to leave out from "Governor-General," to the end of the Sub-section.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 283; Noes, 37.

    Division No. 80.]

    AYES.

    [10.32 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Copeland, Ida

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Albery, Irving James

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Craven-Ellis. William

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.

    Critchley, Brig.-General A. C.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Apsley, Lord

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Crooks, J- Smedley

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Assheton, Ralph

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Hellgers. Captain F. F. A.

    Bailey, Eric Alfred George

    Cross, R. H.

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

    Balllle, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Crossley, A. C.

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hornby, Frank

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Bateman, A. L.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Beit. Sir Alfred L.

    Dickie, John p.

    Hunter. Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

    Donner, P. W.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Bernays, Robert

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Blindell, James

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Boulton, W. W.

    Dunglass, Lord

    Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Bracken, Brendan

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

    Kirkpatrick, William M.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Buchan, John

    Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

    Leckie, J. A.

    Burghley, Lord

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Lewis, Oswald

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Fleming, Edward Lascelles

    Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Fraser, Captain Sir Ian

    Llewellin, Major John J.

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Carver, Major William H.

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Mabane, William

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    McCorquodale. M. S.

    Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton le-Spring)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Graves, Marjorie

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Griffith, F. kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Grimston. R. V

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Conant. R. J. E.

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian

    Cooke, Douglas

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Magnay, Thomas

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Manlier, Geoffrey le M.

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Stones, James

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Remer, John R.

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Rickards, George William

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Maun, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Mills, Major J. D, (Now Forest)

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Milne, Charles

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A.(P'dd'gt'n.S)

    Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Thompson, Sir Luke

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Munro, Patrick

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Salmon, Sir Isldore

    Todd, Lt.-Col. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Salt, Edward W.

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Tree, Ronald

    Nunn, William

    Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    O'Donovan, Dr. William Jamas

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Saasoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Selley, Harry R.

    Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

    Peake, Osbert

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Watt, Major George Steven H.

    Pearson, William G.

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forlar)

    Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Shute, Colonel Sir John

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    White, Henry Graham

    Potter, John

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Whyte, Jardine Bell

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-in-F.)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Smith, Louls W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Pybus, Sir John

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine.C.)

    Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

    Raikes, Henry V. A M.

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Rankin, Robert

    Soper, Richard

    Young, Rt. Hon.Sir Hilton(S'v'noaks)

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Spens, William Patrick

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Ray, Sir William

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Sir George Penny and Lieut.-

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.

    Held, David D. (County Down)

    Stevenson, James

    NOES.

    Banfield, John William

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Batey, Joseph

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Mainwaring, William Henry

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

    Maxton, James

    Buchanan, George

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Milner, Major James

    Cape, Thomas

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Cleary, J. J.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Leonard, William

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Dagger, George

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lunn, William

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Wilmot, John

    Edwards, Charles

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    McGovern, John

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Paling and Mr. Groves.

    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 14.—(Superintendence of Secre tary of State.)
    10.41 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Donald Somervell): I beg to move, in page 9, line 11, to leave out from "shall," to "be," in line 13.
    This and the following Amendment are purely drafting. This omits words in the body of the Clause, and the next inserts them in a new Sub-section in a slightly clearer form.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 9, line 19, at the end, add:
    1898
    "(2) Before giving any directions under this Section the Secretary of State shall satisfy himself that nothing in the directions requires the Governor-General to act in any manner inconsistent with any Instrument of Instructions issued to him by His Majesty."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 15.—(Financial adviser to Governor-General.)
    Mr. NUNN: I beg to move, in page 9, line 28, at the end, to insert:
    "(3) The Governor-General's financial adviser shall have access to all records, documents and information contained in or possessed by any department of the Federal Government."
    I move this Amendment with the intention of securing to the financial adviser

    1899
    to the Governor-General the completest possible powers. Anyone who has had experience of the work of an adviser working under conditions such as obtain, and will obtain, in India, will know that that work is not so easily conducted in the East as it might be in our less difficult climate. Anyone having had than experience will know that it is not infrequent that documents mysteriously disappear and are kept out of the way, and that the person who is most anxious to give his advice is deprived of the opportunity of doing it. If this financial adviser's duty is to be conducted properly with benefit to the Government of India and to the Governor-General, it is highly desirable that he should be supplied with the fullest possible powers. It is no reflection upon the Indian people that one should envisage difficulties arising in the execution of the duties of the financial adviser, because all through the debates on this Bill those possibilities have been envisaged not only by the opponents of the Bill but on the Government Bench. Indeed, the safeguards which are found throughout the Bill are provided for the sole purpose of setting up some barrier against opposition to the full working of the Measure. So I do not apologise for suggesting that obstacles might be raised by the various members of the Indian administration to the financial adviser conducting his duties as he might wish to conduct them.
    If I follow the advice given the other day by the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) and attempt to state the arguments on the other side as well as the arguments which I, myself, find most impressive, perhaps I may be able to move the heart of my hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who, so far, has not shown any great tendency towards softening of the heart in dealing with the Amendments which have been put forward. It may be said that the financial adviser will have his duties confined to what may be called the higher Imperial issues. That may be an argument against furnishing him with these powers, but even if he is dealing with the higher Imperial issues and not with the routine work of day-to-day administration, it will still be necessary for him to be able to put his hands upon all the information which is available in the Government Depart
    1900
    ment. It may be said that these powers will follow automatically from the general measures of the Bill. If that is so, and if it is intended that the financial adviser should have these powers, I feel that there can be no objection to providing them specifically in the Bill. After all, finance is one of the most important questions with which the Governor-General will have to deal, and I feel, from a certain amount of personal experience of this sort of work, and from what one knows will go on, that these powers should be specifically provided.
    10.48 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I hope in two or three sentences to be able to satisfy the Committee that this Amendment is not necessary. The Governor-General, whom the financial adviser will serve, has full powers under Clause 17 (4) to give directions for any papers or any information to be sent to him if he so desires. The Governor-General, therefore, has the fullest possible powers to give instructions to the Ministry that all or any papers he desires should be regularly sent to him, and sent to him through the financial adviser if he so desires.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: He can do that?
    Sir S. HOARE: He can do that. That makes the position completely clear. The proposal in the Amendment would have this great danger, that it would look as though we were constituting the financial adviser into a rival Finance Minister. That is not our intention, and if it were our intention it would be a very foolish intention. The financial adviser is definitely the servant of the Governor-General, and it is for the Governor-General to give instructions as to what papers are to be sent to him and what information is to come to him, and through what channels. I can assure my hon. Friend that the position is quite safe and that the alternative he suggests would 'have considerable difficulties inherent in it.
    Mr. NUNN: May I ask whether the financial adviser is covered in the words "requiring ministers and secretaries to the Governor-General to transmit, etc." The financial adviser is certainly not a Minister, and he hardly seems a secretary to the Governor-General.
    Sir S. HOARE: The hon. Member is confusing two things. The direction to the Ministers is a direction of another kind. The financial adviser is the Governor-General's servant. The Governor-General can direct the Ministers and secretaries to send all the papers be requires and to send them if necessary through the financial adviser.
    Mr. NUNN: I do not wish to press the Amendment. I am not entirely satisfied. I think the Government are making a mistake, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    10.52 p.m.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 9, line 40, to leave out from "discretion," to the end of the Clause.
    This relates to the proviso which lays it down that the Governor-General before appointing a financial adviser must consult his Ministers. The object of the financial adviser is to enable, among other things, the Governor-General to exercise his financial powers under Clause 12. In other words, the financial adviser is intended to be a watchdog of the Ministers, and therefore in these circumstances it seems that the position is going to be diminished if the Ministers are to be consulted with regard to his appointment. I certainly take the view that the Governor-General ought to act entirely in his discretion without reference to his Ministers in relation to his advisers.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: May I ask a question as to the meaning of the word "consult"? Does it mean that the appointment can only be made on the advice of the Minister, or is he not obliged to accept the advice?
    10.53 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I hope my hon. Friends will not press this Amendment. It would, in my view, be a great mistake for the Governor-General not to consult the federal ministers in an appointment of this kind. The ultimate appointment rests with him. There is no question of that at all, but it must be remembered that the financial adviser is intended to be something much more than a watchdog upon the federal ministers. I hope very much that he will be in the closest possible contact with them, and he will be helping them with his advice, given them
    1902
    of course, of their own will, for he will have no statutory authority to tender advice. It is very desirable to have a a man who is accessible to both sides in the Government, and I do not think that that need in any way detract from the clear, unblurred responsibility of the Governor-General, and from the position of the financial adviser as directly under the Governor-General. I hope that, in view of these circumstances, the hon. Member will not press the Amendment.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Would it not be much better if it were put in the Instrument of Instructions?
    Sir S. HOARE: I think it is much better to have it here.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: A statutory obligation to consult has a very definite and far-reaching significance.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: I do not differ in principle from the Secretary of State, but I think any sensible Governor-General would consult. That is a very different thing from being compelled to consult. If he is compelled to consult, it must put him under some obligation in respect of a matter in which he ought not to be put under an obligation. I regret that the Secretary of State is not willing to accept my point. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    10.55 p.m.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Before the Committee parts with this Clause I should like, on behalf of my hon. Friends and myself, to say that we do take a very strong objection to this appointment of someone whom the right hon. Gentleman describes as rather more than a, watchdog, that is to say, handing over the whole control of the finances of India, and thereby the control of the Indian ministers, to someone who is not necessarily at all acceptable to those ministers.
    It is rather worse than the Chancellor of the Exchequer's position in the Cabinet in this country. You will have someone who, quite apart from any of the democratic side of the Government, will be able to step in on every conceivable issue and say that anything that is proposed to be done may interfere with

    1903
    the financial stability and credit of the Federal Government, in much the same way as was indicated by the Lord President of the Council the other day when he said that the credit of the country was jeopardised because someone in the City thought there might be a Labour Government in the future. Any rumour or feeling of that kind which may evince itself in India will apparently be a good cause for this gentleman who is the Governor-General's financial adviser to go to the Governor-General and say, "You must stop this minister or that carrying through this or that bit of policy," which otherwise the minister would have the right to carry through.
    From our experience of the sort of financial adviser who has gone to different parts of the Empire in the not very distant past, it is probable that he will be the type of person who will try to curtail every social service because of his quite genuine belief in the very orthodox system of capitalist finance. Therefore, you will have a splendid method by which to shut down the whole of the effective work which might otherwise be done by the Indian ministers For those reasons, we protest against this Clause and shall divide against it.
    Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 34.

    Division No. 81.]

    AYES.

    [10.59 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Albery, Irving James

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.)

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Crossley, A. C.

    Hornby, Frank

    Apsley, Lord

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Assheton, Ralph

    Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hunter-Weston. Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Balley, Eric Alfred George

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Dawson, Sir Phllip

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Dickie. John P.

    James, Wing-Corn. A. W. H.

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Donner, P. W.

    Janner, Barnett

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Bateman, A. L.

    Dunglass, Lord

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Belt, Sir Alfred L.

    Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Blindell, James

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Boulton, W. W.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Kirkpatrick, William M.

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Bracken, Brendan

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Leckie, J. A.

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

    Lister. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool)

    Llewellin, Major John J,

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C.G.(Partlck)

    Brown.Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)

    Fleming Edward Lascelles

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Buchan, John

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Burghley, Lord

    Fraser, Captain Sir Ian

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Butler. Richard Austen

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Magnay, Thomas

    Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Carver, Major William H.

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Graves, Marjorie

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

    Cazalet. Cant. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

    Milne, Charles

    Cochrane, Commander Hon, A. D.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Munro, Patrick

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Cooke, Douglas

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Copeland, Ida

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Nunn, William

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    O'Donovan, Dr. William James

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Salmon, Sir Isldore

    Sutcilffe, Harold

    Peake, Osbert

    Salt, Edward W.

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Pearson, William G.

    Samuel, Rt. Hon, Sir H. (Darwen)

    Taylor.Vice-Admiral E.A.(P'dd'gt'n, S.)

    Penny, Sir George

    Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Thompson, Sir Luke

    Petherick, M.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Potter, John

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Tree, Ronald

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Pybus, Sir John

    Shute, Colonel Sir John

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Radford, E. A.

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-in-F.)

    Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Watt, Major George Steven H.

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine.C.)

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Rankin, Robert

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Ray, Sir William

    Somerville, Annesley A (Windsor)

    White, Henry Graham

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Somerville, D. G. (WilIesden, East)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Soper, Richard

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Remer, John R.

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

    Rickards, George William

    Spens, William Patrick

    Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

    Ropner. Colonel L.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Stevenson, James

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Stones, James

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Russell, R. J. (Eddlsbury)

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    and Dr. Morris-Jones.

    NOES.

    Banfield, John William

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Batey, Joseph

    Grenfell. David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Mainwaring, William Henry

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Maxton, James

    Buchanan, George

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Milner, Major James

    Cape, Thomas

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Cleary, J. J.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Leonard, William

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Daggar, George

    Lunn, William

    Williams, Thomas (York. Don Valley)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Wilmot, John

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Edwards, Charles

    McGovern, John

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Mr. Paling and Mr. Groves.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 16.—(Advocate-General.)
    Mr. SPENS rose—
    It being after Eleven of the Clock and 'objection being taken to further Proceeding, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make iris report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

    GAS UNDERTAKINGS ACTS, 1920 To 1934.
    Resolved,
    "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Andover Lighting and Power Company, which was presented on the 6th day of February and published, be approved."
    Resolved,
    "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Falmouth Gas Company, which was presented on the 28th day of January and published, be approved."
    Resolved,
    "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Pontypool Gas and Water Company, which was presented on the 7th day of February and published, be approved."—[Dr. Burgin.]
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

    ARMAMENTS MANUFACTURE (INTERNATIONAL INSPECTION).
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
    11.8 p.m.
    Mr. MANDER: I desire to call attention to the situation at the meeting of the Commission of the Disarmament Convention at Geneva which is dealing with the American draft proposals on the manufacture and trade in arms, and the

    1907
    information disclosed as to the attitude of the representative of the British Government, Lord Stanhope. When the Debates took place in this House in December last the spokesman of the Government gave us every reason to believe that the representatives of the British Government were going out to the discussions in Geneva full of enthusiasm and determination to play a leading and active part in co-operating and supporting the American Government in order to make a real success of the proposals that the Americans had brought forward. It is, therefore, very disappointing to find that quite a different situation has actually developed during the past two weeks. Lord Stanhope has put down a number of amendments, and in opening speech he dealt with the views of the British Government. I admit that he put forward certain proposals that are a definite improvement on the present draft, but, apart from that, his whole effort on behalf of the British Government seems to have been to weaken and remove useful points and to whittle away the main advantages of the scheme.
    I cannot help feeling that if the attitude of the British representatives is persisted in to the end—I can hardly believe that it will be—it may prove fatal to any agreement being reached on this useful piece of work. The first point to which I would refer is the attitude of the British representatives with regard to the setting up of a permanent disarmament commision. In that case they are proposing that it should not form part of the present Protocol at all, and they are suggesting that it should be set up with very limited powers in a separate convention that may be signed no one knows when. They are further proposing as amendments to Article 7 that the information to be supplied to Geneva about the categories, numbers, and particulars of the different armaments manufactured shall be severely limited. Instead of giving the actual totals for each individual article, there are to be total values only—information which will be very much less useful than that in the original proposals. But the main objection, which I think has caused a good deal of dismay in many circles in this country, some of them by no means unfriendly to the Government, is to the persistent attitude so far taken up in opposition to the
    1908
    American proposal for international inspection of armament factories. I should like to read an extract from the speech of Lord Stanhope, in which he sets out clearly the general position of the Government on this matter. He said:
    "Let me deal with the question of supervision, which forms the subject of Chapter 4 of the United States draft. That chapter makes provision for an elaborate system of permanent and automatic supervision. The attitude of His Majesty's Government towards such a system in connection with a disarmament convention is set forth in their memorandum of 29th January, 1934. Let me quote the actual words of their statement, as I wish to avoid any misunderstanding on the matter:
    'His Majesty's Government affirm their willingness, if general agreement is reached on all other issues, to agree with the application of a system of permanent and automatic supervision, to come into force with the obligations of the convention '
    that is, a convention for a reduction and limitation of armaments."
    If that really is the ultimate view of the British Government, it seems a little unfortunate that Lord Stanhope, speaking one day in Committee, should have used these words about that point, that it was necessary to have confidence in the sincerity of the contracting States, and added that if that confidence did not exist, it was no use trying to conclude a convention, if that argument is sound, that is an argument against the major policy of the Government itself in agreeing to international inspection in, a general convention. He has used arguments which were entirely contradictory, and he has been taking up that attitude on a point which had already been conceded by the British Government more than a year ago. The seriousness of the position lies in the fact that the United States Government, not always co-operating in the most useful way, or restricted by their constitutional difficulties in working with us, have on this occasion taken an admirable initiative, under President Roosevelt's instructions at Geneva, and are very keenly and sincerely doing their best to put an agreement through, in this limited sphere. That being so, I should have thought His Majesty's Government would have desired to do everything in its power to work closely and in agreement with the American Government, particularly when no principle was involved. The United States are supported in their attitude on this point, and on

    1909
    others, by France, Russia, Spain, Czechoslovakia, China, and indeed all the important States which are taking part in the discussions at the present time.
    The only State that is giving us any support and sympathy is Italy. I do not know what the motive of the Government may be. Possibly they want—I have heard it suggested—to keep this up their sleeve for some bargaining purpose later on, but I hope they will take a wider view, whatever they may think of the merits of the proposal. Seeing that no point of principle is involved, it is more important to be in close co-operation, contact and sympathy with the American Government. For that reason alone they ought to make concessions on this point, and recognise the general feeling of practically all the States who are now entering into the discussion.
    The Government have recently done very much better in the realm of foreign policy. They have had a great success in the Saar issue; they have brought forward the hopeful proposals which concern the Air Pact and all the other schemes that go with it. That may be a little clouded by the unfortunate blunder of the White Paper, but, however that may be, I would make an appeal to the Government to recognise the unanimity of feeling in Geneva and the importance of co-operating with America. I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to say that the last word has not been said at Geneva, and that the Government are willing, as the discussions go on, if there is a preponderance of feeling, to fall in with the views of the other Powers.
    11.17 p.m.
    The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. Eden): I make no complaint of the hon. Member raising this matter to-night, particularly as I think there is some misapprehension on the subject, perhaps inside the House, and certainly outside; and I should like to remove that misapprehension if I can. His Majesty's Government are certainly not opposed to the setting up of a Permanent Disarmament Commission. On the contrary, we should like it to be set up forthwith. The only question is whether it shall be set up under a separate protocol or as part of a protocol dealing with arms traffic. As a practical measure we thought it better, and it was, if I recollect aright so thought in the Bureau when it discussed the
    1910
    problem, to set up the commission separately from the protocol on arms traffic, for a reason which will appeal to the House, namely, that the permanent commission would, we hope, have to deal with many subjects outside the arms traffic and trade in arms. Therefore, we propose a separate protocol. It is not an issue of any magnitude, nor should we wish to hold out against any unanimous view to the contrary.
    There remains the problem of what is generally called permanent and automatic supervision. A system of supervision can be said to consist of two parts, a basis and a superstructure. The basis is in the main documentary; it takes the form of returns made by Governments to a Permanent Disarmament Commission at Geneva. These documents would be examined, collated and checked by the Permanent Disarmament Commission, who could of course question Governments upon them, either through their representatives or in any other way. His Majesty's Government are agreed that some system of supervision such as I have described is an essential part of any convention, whether it deals with the wider issue of disarmament or with the limited object of regulation of the trade in and manufacture of arms.
    Now we come to what I call the superstructure of supervision, that is to say periodic inspection on the spot by visiting supervisory committees, despatched by the Permanent Disarmament Commission from Geneva, to check by examination of persons and documents, the accuracy of certain returns made on the instructions of the Permanent Disarmament Commission. That is what I call the superstructure of supervision and that might well form an essential part in a Disarmament Convention. It is only natural that if the nations should agree among themselves to reduce or limit their armaments they should wish to be assured that the terms which are so vital to their national defence are being fully carried out by everyone. If, for instance, we had all agreed that there should be no more six-inch guns constructed in the world, it would be natural that nations should wish to ensure as far as possible, by some system of inspection that no one was providing himself with guns in excess of six inch calibre. I would certainly not contest that view, and the Government have in fact already, as long ago as

    1911
    January of last year, stated their willingness to agree to the application of a system of permanent and automatic supervision as part of a disarmament convention. I can assure the hon. Member that there has been no change in our position in that respect.
    But the purpose of the Articles of the Convention now being discussed at Geneva is quite different. They have nothing to do with Disarmament; they do not involve a reduction or limitation of armaments in any way at all. They are concerned solely with the trade in and manufacture of arms. It is clear, surely, to us at any rate, that for this limited purpose what I call the basic part of supervision is required. The only difference, if difference there is, between the hon. Member and myself is whether for the inevitably limited and wholly different purpose of the Articles now being discussed at Geneva, a simplified or more limited form of supervision is called for. I share with the hon. Member his belief in the need for some international supervision, some supervisory mechanism in connection with any convention to deal with the trade in and the manufacture of arms. We need, I think, to make sure that the mechanism that we apply for this purpose is not too elaborate or too complicated for its successful operation. The type of supervision called for in connection with the disarmament convention is not necessarily the same as that required for a convention dealing solely with the trade in and the manufacture of arms. The hon. Member appeared to be a little critical of us for our action in putting down amendments to the draft articles though some of them much enlarged the scope of what was originally proposed. The procedure we are following is perfectly normal. These draft articles have only been taken by the Committee as the basis of discussion, and a number of Governments, including the United States Government, have in fact handed in amendments for discussion during what I may call the committee stage, which is now about to begin. Nor would I like the House to think that we are alone taking the view that I have just described in respect of the type of supervision to be applied to this type of convention. The view of the Italian Government is very close to our own, and the Polish Government has
    1912
    also taken an attitude somewhat similar to our own.
    I must make it clear that we are in full accord with the underlying purpose of the draft articles which are now being discussed. The purpose embodied in our amendments is to simplify the means by which the objective aimed at in these Articles can be realised without impairing the effectiveness of the final result. Some little experience of negotiations in these matters at Geneva has convinced me that the simpler are the methods used to achieve the objective we desire to achieve, the more likely we are to succeed in realising them. The House must not overlook the fact that the proposals now under discussion at Geneva, if amended in the form suggested by us and approved by certain other delegations, would none the less constitute a most important contribution in dealing with this problem of the manufacture of and trade in arms.
    I would ask the House, in conclusion, to note that the question at issue is not whether there shall or shall not be supervision but whether the supervision to be applied shall be of a simpler or of a more complicated nature. In dealing with this matter of the trade in and the manufacture of arms, I suggest that in the course of the discussion at Geneva it will be found that the reasons we have advanced are not unimportant in securing the practical result which we are seeking.
    11.26 p.m.
    Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: I hope that His Majesty's Government will consider this matter again. I confess that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman did not carry great conviction. He said that if it were a large convention for limiting arms in general, for example, for prohibiting the manufacture of six inch guns, it was necessary to be assured that it was being carried out. If inspection is necessary to make sure that a larger proposal is being carried out, is it not equally necessary to make sure that a smaller proposal is being carried out?
    Mr. EDEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what for?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: In order to make sure that the returns are correct.
    Mr. EDEN: There are no limitations.
    Sir H. SAMUEL: No, but it is expected that arms to be manufactured should be declared as such. It is the purpose of this Convention that there should be publicity. Suppose that a return is sent from some country, and it is thought that it is misleading and that, as a matter of fact, three times as many arms are being manufactured and being sent surreptitiously to some other country; what power is there to investigate on the spot in order to make sure whether that is true or not? That is the point at issue. The right hon. Gentleman used the word simplification. It is a charming word, but may not simplification mean nullification. It is difficult to see why if a particular form of procedure is necessary for the larger purpose it is not necessary for the smaller pur
    1914
    pose. The fact that His Majesty's Government are only supported by Italy and Poland among the nations, and that we are taking a directly opposite attitude from that of the United States and many other Powers, is in itself rather significant that His Majesty's Government are not necessarily in the right in this matter. However, the whole question is still in a fluid state, the matter is still under discussion, Amendments are still being considered, and I reiterate the hope that the matter will receive further consideration at the hands of His Majesty's Government.
    Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-Nine Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

NATIONAL FINANCE.
  SPIRIT AND LICENCE DUTIES.
  SPIRIT AND LICENCE DUTIES.
  EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
  EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
  SCOTLAND (SUGAR-BEET FACTORY, CUPAR).
  SCOTLAND (SUGAR-BEET FACTORY, CUPAR).
TRANSPORT.
  ROAD BRIDGES (ARCHITECTURAL DESIGN).
  ROAD BRIDGES (ARCHITECTURAL DESIGN).
  MOTOR CAB DRIVERS (OFFENCES).
  MOTOR CAB DRIVERS (OFFENCES).
  UNITED STATES CITIZEN (VISIT).
  UNITED STATES CITIZEN (VISIT).
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  ITALY (COAL IMPORT QUOTA).
  ITALY (COAL IMPORT QUOTA).
  WAR MATERIAL (EXPORT).
  WAR MATERIAL (EXPORT).
  BALANCE OF PAYMENTS.
  BALANCE OF PAYMENTS.
  EMPIRE TRADE.
  EMPIRE TRADE.
  TELEVISION SERVICE.
  TELEVISION SERVICE.
  POST OFFICE (LETTERS, DAILY DELIVERY).
  POST OFFICE (LETTERS, DAILY DELIVERY).
  ADMIRALTY (MECHANISED METHODS).
  ADMIRALTY (MECHANISED METHODS).
  BRITISH GUIANA (ASSYRIANS, SETTLEMENT).
  BRITISH GUIANA (ASSYRIANS, SETTLEMENT).
  SMALLPOX (DEATHS).
  SMALLPOX (DEATHS).

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
The Earl St. Aldwyn—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his grandfather.
The Lord Brocket—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

WESTERN AUSTRALIA.
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have appointed a Committee of three members to join with the Committee appointed by this House, as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of Tuesday last, to consider the Petition of the State of Western Australia for a Bill to effectuate the withdrawal of the people of Western Australia from the Federal Commonwealth of Australia, and to report whether the same is proper to be received; and that they have made the following Orders: That the Committee have leave to hear Counsel to such extent as they shall see fit, and have power to send for persons, papers and records; that two he the quorum; that the Petition of the people of the State o Western Australia, presented to the
2
House on the 17th day of December last, be referred to the Committee; and that they do report upon the advisability of its reception by the House.

METROPOLITAN POLICE (BORROWING POWERS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
CLACTON-ON-SEA PIER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

BOOTLE EXTENSION BILL. [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD STANMORE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands on the Paper in my name with reference to this Bill.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 105 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill, and that the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Stanmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bill read 2a accordingly.

GLOUCESTER CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
LORD STANMORE: My Lords, I beg to move a similar Motion, which also

3
stands on the Paper, with reference to the Gloucester Corporation Bill.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 105 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill, and that the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Stanmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bill read 2a accordingly.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (FARNHAM URBAN DISTRICT ORDER).
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing on the Paper in my name, that the Order made to extend Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the urban district of Farnham be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Act, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the urban district of Farnham, and laid before this House on Tuesday last, be approved.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (HARROW URBAN DISTRICT ORDER.).
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing on the Paper in my name, that the Order to extend Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the urban district of Harrow be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Act, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the urban district of Harrow, and laid before this House on Tuesday last, be approved.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO- VISIONAL ORDER (LEICESTER AND WARWICK) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO- VISIONAL ORDER (CUMBERLAND AND LANCASTER) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (GLOUCESTER AND WARWICK) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (HOLLAND AND KESTEVEN) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (HOLLAND AND LINDSEY) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.

HERRING INDUSTRY BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Particular purposes of scheme.
3. It is hereby declared, without prejudice to the generality of the provisions of the last foregoing section with respect to the provisions which may be contained in a scheme, that there may be thereby conferred on the Board powers for all or any of the following purposes, amongst others, that is to say—
(g) the regulation, by means of rules, of the manner and conditions in and subject to which sales may be conducted, of the charges by way of commission to be made by salesmen and exporters, of

5
standards of curing and of kippering, and of methods of packing and transport;
(i) the purchase and sale as agents and" in special cases, as principals of herring, including—

(i) in connection with the regulation of sales with a view to meeting temporary or seasonal conditions detrimental to the industry, the imposition on curers of a duty to place their stocks of cured herring at the disposal of the Board with a view to the sale for export thereof by the Board as agents; and

THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOE WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL)THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOE WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL) moved, in paragraph (g), to leave out "and of kippering" and insert "kippering and processing ". The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Earl De La Warr, I beg to move the first Amendment on the Order Paper. This is little more than a drafting Amendment to bring this paragraph into line with paragraph (h). The paragraph enables the scheme to contain a power, by means of rules, to regulate the manner and conditions, and so on, under which herring can be cured and kippered for human consumption, and it seems advisable, if standards, etc., are to be applied for these two purposes, that the Board should also have the power of applying similar standards in respect of other methods of treating herring. I understand that various new methods of smoking herring are being developed, and it is only for that purpose that it is proposed to insert the words which appear on the Order Paper. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 5, leave out ("and of kippering") and insert ("kippering and 6
processing").—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL moved, in paragraph (i) (i), to leave out "curers of a duty to place their stocks of cured herring" and insert "holders of stocks of cured herring of a duty to place them." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is also just a little more than a drafting Amendment, the object being to widen the wording to include all persons who may have stocks of cured herring at their disposal. It may be that not only curers but other persons, such as exporters, might have stocks of cured herring in their possession, and it is therefore better to use the expression "holders of stocks of cured herring" instead of the word "curers." I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line leave out from ("on") to ("at") in line 20 and insert ("holders of stocks of cured herring of a duty to place them.").—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I may mention that there is no business on the Order Paper for to-morrow, and I suggest, therefore, that we adjourn until Thursday.
House adjourned at half past four o'clock.

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with:
Sunderland Corporation.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petitions for the following Bills ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to introduce the Bills:

Weymouth Waterworks,

Middlesex County Council.

That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for Additional Provision in the
Stourbridge Navigation Bill [H.L.]
ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to the Committee on the Bill to insert the Additional Provision:
Read, and agreed to.

WEYMOUTH WATERWORKS BILL. [H.L.]
Presented (pursuant to leave given this day); read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.

MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Presented (pursuant to leave given this day), and read 1a.
DERWENT VALLEY WATER BOARD BILL.
LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BOARD BILL.
SUNDERLAND CORPORATION BILL.
Reports from His Majesty's Attorney-General received, and ordered to lie on the Table.

MARLOW WATER BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The Orders made on Wednesday last discharged, and Bill committed.
SEVERN NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The Orders made on the 7th and 20th of February last discharged, and Bill committed.
SEVERN NAVIGATION (CHARGING POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The Orders made on the 5th and 20th of February last discharged, and Bill committed.
STOKE-ON-TRENT CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The Orders made on the Nth and 20th of February last discharged, and Bill committed.
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORA TION (QUAY EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The Orders made on the 5th and 20th of February last discharged, and Bill committed.
NORWICH ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
BOOTLE EXTENSION BILL. [H.L.]
  GLOUCESTER CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

BOOTLE EXTENSION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bill, namely:—

E. Shaftesbury (Chairman),

L. Merthyr,

L. Swinfen,

L. Mamhead,

L. Milne:

Agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Tuesday, the 19th instant, at eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bill.