Sitting of 11 July 1935

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Provisional Order Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, brought from the Lords and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Huntingdon) Bill [Lords.]
Bill to be read a Second time To-morrow.
Provisional Order Bills [Lords] (No Standing Orders applicable),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, brought from the Lords and referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Croydon) Bill [Lords.]
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Eastbourne) Bill [Lords.]
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Harrogate) Bill [Lords.]
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Metropolis Water) Bill [Lords.]
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Morley) Bill [Lords.]
Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.
Bournemouth Gas and Water Bill [Lords,]
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
London Passenger Transport Board (Finance) Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
West Riding of Yorkshire Mental Hospitals Board (Superannuation) Bill [Lords,]
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  TRADE BOARDS ACTS.
  Mr. T. SMITHasked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered a request for the application of the Trade Boards Acts to the aluminium industry, having regard to the conditions of the workpeople employed by the British Aluminium Company, Limited, and the Aluminium Corporation, Limited, and to the fact that no machinery exists for the purpose of negotiating working conditions; and what action he proposes to take?
  The MINISTER of LABOUR (Mr. Ernest Brown): I have received a request for the application of the Trade Boards Acts to the aluminium industry, and I am at present in communication with the companies concerned on the subject.
  Mr. SMITH: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he is likely to be in a position to make a definite statement?
  Mr. BROWN: At the moment no, but I will communicate with the hon. Member.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Minister of Labour whether he will state the result of a visit paid recently by one of his inspectors to firms in Willenhall coming under the paper-box trade board and the stamped or pressed metalware trade board.
  Mr. BROWN: I find that inquiries have recently been made at three Willenhall establishments. Two of these were found not to be engaged upon work falling within the scope of any trade board: inspection of an establishment in the paper box trade disclosed no infractions of statutory requirements.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    AGRICULTURAL WORKERS (INSURANCE).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Labour when a decision was taken by the Government on the question of including or excluding agricultural workers from the unemployment insurance scheme?
    Mr. E. BROWN: On 16th May, 1935.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what the decision was?
    Mr. BROWN: It has been stated many times and approved in principle.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us exactly what the decision of the Government was, apart from the approving of any principles, which means nothing?
    Mr. BROWN: It has been stated several times in the House and is on public record.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Are we to understand then that that is the only decision that the Government are likely to take in regard to the insurance of agricultural workers?
    Mr. BROWN: The hon. Member must understand no such thing.
    Mr. PALING: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when this will come into operation?
    Mr. BROWN: Not now.

    OVERTIME.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered a variation of the policy when inquiring into the question of overtime by asking trade unions as well as employers for their observations?
    Mr. E. BROWN: In connection with the question of the means by which more workpeople may be absorbed into employment my predecessor met representatives of the Trade Union Congress General Council, and I have arranged a further meeting with them later this month. In these discussions the question of overtime is one of the matters under consideration, and I shall be glad to receive any information the trade unions can provide.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: As the right hon. Gentleman informed the House on Thursday last when he was seeking this information he only made inquiries from employers, will he now vary that practice by asking the trade union representatives as well as the employers for this information?
    Mr. BROWN: The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The fact is that we obtain every month returns from a large number of trade unions relating to the state of employment among their members. On each return form is printed a question asking for the amount of overtime worked. Out of 800 such returns sent out to the head offices and some of the branch offices we received last month nearly 500 replies covering 530,000 members which supplied no information as to the amount of overtime, and 290 covering 160,000 members, stated that no overtime was worked. Only 37 returns, covering 27,000 members, supplied figures as to the number working overtime and the amount of overtime worked.

    STATISTICS.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Labour how many persons are in receipt of unemployment assistance; and what proportion of them are receiving instruction or training in the various centres?
    Mr. E. BROWN: At 24th June, 1935, there were on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain 672,677 men and 35,940 women with applications authorised for unemployment allowances. Approximately 5,570 men in receipt of unemployment allowances were attending the Government training and instructional centres.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these centres are being extended, and, if so, to what extent?
    Mr. BROWN: I would want notice as to the numbers but they are being extended.
    Viscountess ASTOR: How many women are being helped by the Government in connection with these training centres in such matters as domestic service?
    Mr. BROWN: Perhaps the Noble Lady will put down a question. As she knows, there is an admirable women's committee.

    DEPENDANT'S BENEFIT.
    Mr. GORDON MACDONALDasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons in receipt of unemployment benefits who have been refused dependants' benefits, and whether it is his intention to take the necessary action to provide dependants' benefits to all in receipt of unemployment benefits?
    Mr. E. BROWN: The number of claims for dependant's benefit which were disallowed by the independent statutory authorities during the period January to June, 1935, was 21,531 but I am unable to state how many claimants were concerned or how many are now in receipt of benefit. I do not propose to seek to alter the conditions for the receipt of dependant's benefit.
    Mr. MACDONALD: In view of the fact that this House never approved of a means test in connection with standard benefit, are we to understand that the Minister does not intend to carry out such a test?
    Mr. BROWN: That is another issue. If the hon. Member will look at his question again he will see that it goes very far, and it is his last suggestion to which I am referring.
    Mr. MACDONALD: But does not the Minister appreciate that, while the House has approved of a means test for transitional payments, this means test will apply to standard benefit; and do the Government approve of such a means test being applied?
    Mr. BROWN: I would not agree with the hon. Member's way of putting it.
    Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHS: Is it not against the law for such instructions to be issued in regard to a man who is on standard benefit? There is no means test that can be applied under the law to standard benefit.
    Mr. BROWN: That is a different issue from the issue raised in the question.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: Is there any disqualification test in respect of benefit allowances except the normal test of dependency?
    Mr. TINKER: Seeing that this anomaly has arisen, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to bring the matter before the House so that it can be altered?
    Mr. BROWN: I would like to see the anomaly to which the hon. Member refers set out in precise terms. If hon. Members have any particular case in mind, and if they will state it in precise terms, I shall be glad to answer on it, but I cannot give a general answer. I have given already an answer to the question which goes very far.

    TRANSFERRED JUVENILES (HOSTELS).
    Mr. SIMMONDSasked the Minister of Labour in what districts he has made provision for the housing of unemployed juveniles who have been transferred from depressed areas?
    Mr. E. BROWN: Where necessary, suitable lodgings are always found by officers of the Department for juveniles transferred to employment from scheduled areas. As an experiment, and in view of the shortage of lodging accommodation in certain areas, four hostels for transferred boys are being established in London and one hostel for transferred girls in the Midlands Division.
    Mr. GEORGE HALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that these hostels are under proper supervision?
    Mr. BROWN: They are.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Are they not very well supervised?

    NAVAL PENSIONERS.
    Mr. LEONARD (for Mr. NEIL MACLEAN)asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty the number of naval pensioners who are registering for employment; the number of naval pensioners in part-time employment; and the number of naval pensioners who have exhausted their unemployment benefit during the past two years?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Sir Victor Warrender): It is regretted that the information asked for by the hon. Member is not available. The Ministry of Labour, who have been consulted, are also unable to give the figures desired.

  MERCANTILE MARINE.

    STEAMSHIP "QUEEN MARY" (SCULPTORS).
    Mr. N. MACLEANasked the Minister of Labour how many sculptors are now engaged upon the work of interior decoration of the "Queen Mary"; and whether he can state their nationality and who is responsible for their employment, on this ship?
    Mr. E. BROWN: No information is immediately available regarding the employment of sculptors on the work in question; I am having inquiries made and will let the hon. Member know the result.

    OIL SEPARATORS.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELLasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has investigated the claims made by inventors of oil separators; whether he is satisfied that the discharge from oil-carrying vessels can be effectively treated and freed from oil; and whether he will require that all new tonnage receiving assistance under the Shipping Industry Act shall be fitted with an efficient separator?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, I understand that, while efficient separators with a capacity up to 150 tons an hour have been placed on the market, there are as yet no separators of sufficient capacity to meet larger requirements. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

    LINE- THROWING APPARATUS.
    Mr. N. MACLEANasked the President of the Board of Trade the order or other enactment under which all passenger ships, whatever their tonnage, engaged on international voyages must carry line-throwing apparatus?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The requirement is contained in Rules 4 and 5 of the Merchant Shipping (Life-Saving Appliances) Rules, 1932, dated 9th December, 1932 (Statutory Rules and Orders, 1932, No. 1035).

    BRITISH OFFICER'S IMPRISONMENT, PALMA.
    Mr. JANNERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken to secure bail, pending his appeal, for Captain Kane, master of
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    the steamer "Brampton Manor," now imprisoned in Majorca; whether he will take any further steps; and whether he can make any statement as to the prospects of Captain Kane's early release?
    The MINISTER for LEAGUE of NATIONS AFFAIRS (Mr. Eden): Applications were made to the Provincial Court in Palma for bail or detention in hospital instead of in prison, but were rejected. The attention of the Spanish Government was accordingly drawn to this aspect of the case by His Majesty's Ambassador, and continued efforts are being made both by the British Vice-Consul at Palma and by His Majesty's Embassy at Madrid to secure detention in hospital instead of in prison. It appears, however, that bail cannot be granted in this case. As regards the latter part of the question, the appeal is to be heard on 21st July, and in the meanwhile every possible step has been taken by His Majesty's Government to impress upon the Spanish Government the serious view they take of this case.
    Mr. JANNER: In view of the very grave anxiety felt around the country about this case, would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the man will receive ample legal representation?
    Mr. EDEN: That point has already been dealt with in my previous answer.

  BRITISH WORKERS ABROAD (REPATRIATION).
  Mr. SIMMONDSasked the Minister of Labour whether, in order to relieve the shortage of certain highly-skilled workers, he will make provision, on repayment, to assist the return here of British citizens now resident in foreign countries who possess the necessary skill and experience?
  Mr. E. BROWN: I am advised that there is no statutory authority to cover the grant of advances to assist the return of British citizens now resident in foreign countries who wish to obtain employment in this country.
  Mr. SIMMONDS: In view of the large number of skilled British workers who went away after the War, particularly to the United States, would not my right hon. Friend consider carefully whether he could not take advantage of this

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  favourable opportunity to get those workers back to this country?
  Mr. BROWN: Since the hon. Member put down this question, I have made inquiries as to the number of applications in recent months, and I do not find that they bear out his description of "a large number," but perhaps the hon. Member has some particular cases in mind.

  TRANSPORT.

    SPEED LIMIT (POLICE PRACTICE).
    Vice-Admiral TAYLORasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the police are exercising the powers given them for silent control prosecutions in cases where the car has been stopped by them; and whether he can take any action to prevent this procedure being continued?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Simon): The usual and proper practice is, when a motor driver has been stopped by the police who have been checking his speed and have found it to exceed the speed limit, to inform him at the time that his speed has been checked and that he will be reported for the question of proceedings to be considered. I not not think any further action on my part is called for.
    Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: I put the question because the police have prosecuted drivers of cars which they have stopped and have not informed the drivers at the time that they were going to prosecute, a proceeding which I am sure is entirely against the whole principle of British justice.
    Sir J. SIMON: Without accepting the definite statement of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, I have stated what I think is the usual and proper practice, and I have every reason to believe that it is generally observed.

    HEAVY GOODS VEHICLES (SPEED LIMIT).
    Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOXasked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the fact that double-deck omnibuses carrying up to 60 or 70 passengers are allowed to travel 30 miles
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    per hour in the most congested districts, he will consider some relaxation of the speed limit of 20 miles per hour at present imposed on goods vehicles with pneumatic tyres on all roads?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Hore-Belisha): The 20 miles per hour limit applies only to heavy goods vehicles, and I should have no grounds for asking Parliament to revise the limit of speed which tit fixed last year.
    Sir A. KNOX: Is not this unfair in view of the fact that these vehicles are involved in fewer accidents than any other kind of vehicle?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I would not presume to comment on a decision of Parliament which was reached so recently.

    RAILWAY LEVEL CROSSINGS, YORKSHIRE.
    Mr. G. GRIFFITHSasked the Minister of Transport the number of grants that have been made during the past three years towards the cost of the removal of level crossings in the county of York?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Two, Sir.

    FORTH ROAD BRIDGE SCHEME.
    Mr. GUYasked the Minister of Transport whether he is now in a position to publish the report of the boring operations on the Mackintosh Rock site in connection with the proposed Forth road-bridge?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I have not yet received the report.
    Mr. GUY: May I ask my right hon. Friend to publish the report as soon as it is available, and not to keep it back?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: It will be for the corporation of Edinburgh to decide whether they want to publish it, and, if so, how quickly. Perhaps my hon. Friend will address his suggestion to them.

    BUILT-UP AREAS (SPEED LIMIT).
    Sir GIFFORD FOX (for Lieut.-Colonel Sir ARNOLD WILSON)asked the Minister of Transport how many miles of road, in how many different places, un-provided with a system of street lighting, have been deemed to be in a built-up area under Section 1, Sub-section (4), of the

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    Road Traffic Act, 1934, since the date that Section of the Act became operative; and how many miles of road have been de-restricted in how many different places?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: As the lengths of road which have been restricted or de-restricted by orders made by local authorities under Section 1 of the Road Traffic Act, 1934, are frequently specified only by reference to their termini, and particulars of the exact mileages are not given, my hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate that I am not in a position to give him the information for which he asks.

  BETTING AND LOTTERIES ACT.
  Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND TROYTEasked the Home Secretary whether he can give any estimate of the amount of money which will be lost annually to hospitals as a result of the Betting and Lotteries Act; and whether he proposes to bring in a Bill to amend this Act so as to allow small lotteries to be held for the benefit of hospitals and other recognised institutions?
  Sir J. SIMON: I have no information which would enable me to reply to the first part of the question. As regards the second part, the House considered, during the passage of the Betting and Lotteries Act, 1934, various proposals for legalising lotteries in aid of hospitals and other charities but rejected them.
  Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my local hospital has lost £700 or £800 a year owing to this Act and that it is going very much further than it appeared the House intended it to go; and will he make further inquiries?
  Sir J. SIMON: My hon. and gallant Friend will realise that very careful examination was given to this question by the House. I must point out to him that as far as I know the Act of 1934 did not make illegal any type of lottery which was previously legal.
  Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the extent to which it is being applied?
  Viscountess ASTOR: Is it not the case that it has been stated that these
  474 lotteries do more harm than good to the hospitals in the year?
  Sir J. SIMON: It certainly must be borne in mind that, assuming that efforts were made to finance hospitals in this country by means of lotteries, it does not necessarily follow that the existing sources out of which the hospitals receive help would continue to flow.
  Sir WILFRID SUGDEN: In view of the confused state of the betting law, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of its codification?
  Mr. PALING: Since the passing of the Act, has there been any evidence of any great demand for the restoration of these lotteries?
  Sir J. SIMON indicated dissent.

  CORONERS (COMMITTEE).
  Sir THOMAS ROSBOTHAMasked the Home Secretary whether he can give any information as to what progress the Coroners Committee is making; and when he expects to receive its report?
  Sir J. SIMON: I am informed that the Coroners' Committee are still engaged in taking evidence, and it is not yet possible to say when they may be in a position to present their report.

  EDUCATION.

    SCHOOL-LEAVING AGE.
    Mr. G. GRIFFITHSasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is now in a position to give the House any information regarding the Department's inquiry into the school-leaving age?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the right hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Sir F. Acland) on Tuesday last.
    Mr. GRIFFITHS: Was not that answer "Wait and see"?
    Mr. STANLEY: Not precisely in those terms.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Will my right hon. Friend consult the Noble Lord the right hon. Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), as he knows what should be
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    done? Now that we have such a prominent and expensive Member in the Cabinet, we want our money's worth.

    PROVISION OF MEALS.
    Sir WILLIAM JENKINSasked the President of the Board of Education whether he will give reasonable discretion to local education authorities to grant free meals or free milk to any child where it is within the definite knowledge of the authority that the economic conditions in the child's home are exceptional?
    Mr. THORNEasked the President of the Board of Education what is the attitude of the Board to those local education authorities who are giving free meals or milk merely on the ground of poverty where the family income is below a certain minimum?
    Mr. STANLEY: The attitude of the Board in the matter has been set out in a letter dated the 14th November, 1934, to the Secretary to the Association of Education Committees, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy. In general I should agree that the economic conditions of the home are a factor to which full weight should be given in considering how much importance should be attached to any physical signs or educational symptoms which may be noted by the medical officer or the teacher.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Is it not a fact that over 30 per cent. of the children attending elementary schools are either physically defective or in need of medical observation? Is that not true, and, in view of that fact, will not my right hon. Friend do all he can to bring in a policy to deal with free school milk?
    Mr. STANLEY: If the Noble Lady really wants to know what the figures are, perhaps she will put a question down. If she is only giving me information, I am obliged to her.

    SCHOOL BUILDINGS (ADDITIONAL PROVISIONS).
    Sir W. JENKINSasked the President of the Board of Education what steps, if any, are being taken by the Board to provide in elementary schools in England and Wales dining-halls, gymnasia, shower-baths and changing-rooms; and can he give the number of schools that have these provisions at present?
    Mr. STANLEY: Where circumstances justify the provision of such additions to the normal school buildings of a public elementary school, the Board are prepared to sanction their provision and to take the expenditure into account for the calculation of grant to the local education authority. I regret that I am unable to answer the second part of the question.

    TEACHING STAFFS.
    Mr. ERNEST EVANSasked the President of the Board of Education in how many cases during the last three years the Board has refused to give its assent to proposals received from local education authorities for the appointment of teachers in excess of the approved establishment in their respective areas; and which were the local authorities concerned?
    Mr. STANLEY: The official records in my Department have not been designed to cover this point, but I am sending the hon. Member a list of 12 cases in which, during the last three years, the Board have refused to sanction appointments in excess of the previously approved establishments.
    Mr. EVANSasked the President of the Board of Education in how many cases the Board has during the last three years required local education authorities to reduce the number of teachers employed in their respective areas, and which were the local education authorities concerned?
    Mr. STANLEY: During the last three years the Board have asked 137 local education authorities to reconsider the staffing of their schools in order to secure a reduction of the number of teachers, which the Board regarded as excessive. The Board have, however, in all cases made it clear that they contemplated that any such reduction should be effected, not by dismissals, but by not filling vacancies due to retirements, resignations, and by transfers. I am sending the hon. Member a list of the local education authorities concerned.

    UNEMPLOYED TEACHERS.
    Mr. E. EVANSasked the President of the Board of Education how many of the men and women who left training colleges and university training departments in July last are still reported as having failed to obtain employment as

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    teachers; and whether he has any plans for assisting such men and women to obtain employment?
    Mr. STANLEY: The number of students who left the training colleges and training departments in July, 1934, and had not secured teaching posts by the 31st December was 1,359, but this figure includes a considerable number of students who had failed to pass their final examinations as well as a number who were not immediately seeking employment in the teaching profession. A considerable number of those have obtained posts in State-aided schools since that date. I very much regret that any of these students should be finding difficulty in obtaining employment; but it would not be justifiable to employ more teachers in the schools than are required for their efficient conduct. There were on the 31st March, 1935, some 5,000 more certificated teachers in full-time employment in the public elementary schools than on the 31st March, 1931.
    Sir PERCY HARMS: Could not some of these surplus teachers be utilised in order to reduce some of the large classes which are still conspicuous in some parts of the country?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Do not these figures show that the occupation of a teacher is one that is very much sought after?

    SCHOLARSHIP GRANTS (DISABILITY PENSIONS).
    Mr. CLEARYasked the President of the Board of Education whether the policy of taking into consideration disability pensions in assessing grants in connection with scholarships won by elementary schoolchildren is one generally applied by local authorities and is done with the consent and approval of the Board; and whether he will take steps to stop this practice?
    Mr. STANLEY: I have no information as to the practice of local education authorities generally in this matter. In cases where authorities have expressed a desire to exclude disability pensions in assessing the amount of aid to be given to a scholarship-holder the Board have given their approval to this course. The matter is one which falls within, and in my opinion should be kept to, the discretion of the authorities.

  PRIVATE GARAGES (WATER RATE).
  Mr. JOHN RUTHERFORDasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the objections taken to the operation of Section 12 of the Metropolitan Water Board Act, 1927, under which persons having garages with no water used or laid on are assessed to water rate as though they both had and used water; and whether he proposes to take steps in the matter?
  The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): I have not received such objections. The method of assessment to water rate is laid down by the local Acts relating to the Metropolitan Water Board, and those Acts give me no jurisdiction in the matter.
  Captain DOWER: Surely my right hon. Friend can take some steps to prevent people having to pay for what they do not want and do not get?
  Sir K. WOOD: I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend heard my reply.

  HOUSING.

    SLUM CLEARANCE (COMPENSATION).
    Sir A. KNOXasked the Minister of Health whether in view of the many cases of hardship brought to light in the administration of Section 19 of the Housing Act, 1930, he will consider amending the law by the insertion of provisions authorising the payment of compensation to owners of property?
    Sir K. WOOD: The Housing Bill now before Parliament contains proposals for mitigating the difficulties in the administration of the Act of 1930 which have been brought to light.
    Sir A. KNOX: What about the cases which are now being dealt with by the local authorities throughout the country? Surely the right hon. Gentleman must know that a considerable amount of hardship is being caused to poor people by the operations of this Section of the Act?
    Sir K. WOOD: This matter has been discussed several times.

    FLATS.
    Mr. DENMANasked the Minister of Health how blocks of flats were

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    counted in the figures of houses provided in his recent White Paper on Housing?
    Sir K. WOOD: Every flat, occupied, or intended to be occupied, as a separate dwelling was regarded as one house for purposes of the recent housing publication.
    Mr. DENMAN: Would it not be worth while giving separate figures for flats, seeing that this method of building is so much on the increase?
    Sir K. WOOD: I will consider this suggestion.

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
    Mr. G. GRIFFITHSasked the Minister of Health whether he will give the names of the maternity and child welfare authorities which make provision for home helps, and whether his sanction has been given or refused to any authority which has proposed to institute this service within the last two years?
    Sir K. WOOD: There are 133 maternity and child welfare authorities who, according to my latest information, have made provision for this service. I will send the hon. Member a list of these authorities, showing those to which sanction has been given within the last two years. There is no case within that period in which sanction has been refused to a proposal to institute this service.

    MILK (GERMICIDE PROCESS).
    Mr. RICKARDSasked the Minister of Health whether the new process of adding germicide to milk for destroying bacteria has been brought to his notice; whether he will have the process tested and investigated; and consider whether any modification of the Food and Drugs Adulteration Act would be required to permit of milk so treated being sold on a commercial scale?
    Sir K. WOOD: I have recently been informed of a claim to the discovery of a new germicide for milk, but I have no knowledge of its composition and no sample has been supplied to my Department. The addition of any germicide to milk would be contrary to the provisions of the Preservatives Regulations and the Food and Drugs (Adulteration) Act, and
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    for the reasons set out in the report of the Departmental Committee on Preservatives in Food I could not contemplate any amendment of the law in this respect.
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN: In view of the report of the Milk Reorganisation Commission, that the Food and Drugs Act should be amended in various particulars, will not my right hon. Friend include this matter with other recommendations when this Act is reviewed?

    NUTRITION (ADVISORY COMMITTEE).
    Sir W. JENKINSasked the Minister of Health whether he will appoint some medical expert from South Wales or Monmouthshire who has had experience of the depressed areas on the advisory committee who are now considering the question of national nutrition?
    Sir K. WOOD: I have decided, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, to appoint the senior medical officer of the Welsh Board of Health to be a member of this committee.

    FOOD VALUES.
    Mr. LEES-JONESasked the Minister of Health whether he will take steps to ensure that the food values committee will seek evidence from, among other sources, those members of the medical profession who have specialised knowledge about foodstuffs, albeit regarded as unorthodox by the British Medical Association?
    Sir K. WOOD: It is for the committee themselves to decide what evidence they will take, and I have no doubt that they will consider my hon. Friend's suggestion.

    MATERNAL AND INFANT MORTALITY.
    Mr. PEARSONasked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the annual report of the medical officer of health for Hebburn-on-Tyne, in which it is stated that the infant mortality rate has risen from 86 per 1,000 live births last year to 108 this year, and that for every 116 babies born last year a mother died, the average being almost double that for the whole country; and, in view of the seriousness of the problem, will he hold an inquiry into the reasons for this high rate of maternal and infantile mortality?
    Sir K. WOOD: I have received this report and have arranged for one of the medical officers of the Department to visit the district and inquire into the relevant circumstances.
    Mr. DICKIE: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that this is another indication of the deplorable state of things in these special areas? When does he expect some action to be taken?
    Sir K. WOOD: I do not think my hon. Friend heard my reply, in which I said that I had already arranged to send a medical officer to that district. It should be remembered that the district in question is only a small one and that the number of deaths was only four.
    Mr. LAWSON: Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that this is merely a symptom of a deep-seated disorder in these areas?
    Sir K. WOOD: That is a matter for consideration.
    Mr. PEARSON: Is my right hon. Friend aware that all this has happened in the last year?

  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, WHISTON.
  Mr. LOGANasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Liverpool public assistance relief cases being treated by, and in, the Whiston urban district council are below the Liverpool scale; and is he prepared to advise the Whiston council to pay higher rates by arrangement with Liverpool?
  Sir K. WOOD: If the hon. Member will furnish me with precise particulars of the cases to which he refers, I will look into the matter. I am, of course, precluded by Statute from intervention in individual cases.
  Mr. LOGAN: If representations were made, could not this injustice be removed?
  Sir K. WOOD: If the hon. Member will see me on the matter, I will look into it.
  Mr. G. GRIFFITHS: Is it not the case that where people are paid a lower scale the right hon. Gentleman can insist that they shall pay a higher scale just as he insists when they are paying a higher scale that they must pay a lower?
  Sir K. WOOD: No, Sir. I stated that I am precluded by the Statute from dealing with individual cases.

  CARDIFF (COLOURED POPULATION).
  Captain ARTHUR EVANSasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the report of the survey of the conditions of the coloured and half-caste population domiciled in the city of Cardiff, conducted by a joint committee of the British Social Hygiene Council and the British Council of the Mercantile Marine, which has been sent to him; and whether, in view of the health, employment, and social conditions found to be prevailing, he will take suitable action to remedy the matter?
  Sir K. WOOD: I do not find that I have yet received a copy of the report to which my hon. Friend refers, but if he will arrange for me to be supplied with one, I will gladly consider it, in so far as it refers to matters within the province of my Department.
  Captain EVANS: When considering the report in question, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the desirability of Appointing a small Royal Commission, say, of three persons, with wide terms of reference, to investigate all aspects of the difficult and complex problem of coloured people domiciled in Great Britain, especially in dock areas.
  Sir K. WOOD: That is a very wide question, and probably outside my province, but I had better see the report first.
  Captain EVANS: I put this question down to the Prime Minister in the first instance, and it was transferred to the Minister of Health.
  Mr. LOGAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of alien seamen who come to this country for three years, who have children, and who, on going back to their native country, leave them here?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    IMPORT DUTIES (CONDENSED MILK).
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether

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    the report of the Import Duties Advisory Committee, now under consideration by it with regard to proposals for an increase in the tariff on foreign condensed milk, will be available for Parliamentary approval before the Summer Recess?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Duff Cooper): I am not at present in a position to say.

    COTTON INDUSTRY.
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, before proceeding with the Cotton Industry Bill, which proposes to reduce the existing number of spindles in this country to the amount required to serve the existing markets, he will take further active steps to make it possible, by alteration of existing treaties And other means, to expand such markets both within and without the Empire?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: His Majesty's Government watch constantly for opportunities of expanding the overseas markets for United Kingdom cotton goods, whether by the conclusion of new trade treaties And agreements or by the amendment of existing ones, but this action does not lessen the need for proceeding with the Cotton Spinning Industry Bill.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: Was the number of spindles proposed to be reduced, as fixed in the Bill, based on the assumption that the Government of India Bill was to become law?
    Sir WALDRON SMITHERSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will issue a White Paper to explain in simple words the provisions of the Cotton Spinning Industry Bill; and whether he will devote special attention to Clause 5 and work out some examples?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: A full explanation of the provisions of the Bill, including those of the Clause mentioned by my hon. Friend, will be given on the occasion of the Second Reading; and more detailed discussion is, of course, possible in Committee.
    Sir W. SMITHERS: Some of us have Clause 5 particularly in mind, and we should like some explanation before the Second Reading, if possible.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I will try and make it as simple as possible on Second Reading.
    Sir W. SMITHERS: Would it be possible to have an explanation of Clause 5 alone if the right hon. Gentleman cannot give it for the rest of the Bill?
    Major PROCTERasked the President of the Board of Trade what action he proposes to take to prevent Japanese and other foreign grey cotton cloth being imported into this country for printing and re-exported as of British manufacture; and whether he will consult with the Secretary of State for the Colonies so that only cotton cloth, spun, woven, and finished in Great Britain shall be regarded as British cloth and all other cotton goods not complying with this description shall be deemed as of foreign manufacture to which the Colonial quota regulations will apply?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies is communicating with the Colonies on this subject.

    BRUSSELS EXHIBITION (BRITISH TOWN EXHIBITS).
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade what British towns are being officially represented by exhibits at the International Brussels Exhibition now being held?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Dr. Burgin): The only British town that has an official exhibit in the British Pavilion is Wolverhampton, whose exhibit consists of a Bureau of Information set up by the Industrial Development Association of that town. Other towns which have taken advantage of the Local Authorities Publicity Act are represented indirectly by the Travel and Industrial Development Association of Great Britain and Ireland; which, jointly with the British railway companies, also maintains an exhibit in the British Pavilion.
    Mr. MANDER: Do I understand that Wolverhampton was the only town which had the foresight and patriotism to be represented on its own?
    Dr. BURGIN: The hon. Member must understand what I said and not what he added.

  FISHING INDUSTRY (OIL POLLUTION).
  Mr. D. GRENFELLasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has considered complaints of the effect on inshore fishing of the discharge of oil at sea; and whether he has made representations for dealing with pollution in the interest of men whose livelihood is gravely jeopardised by the destruction of fish of all kinds from this cause?
  Sir GEORGE BOWYER (Comptroller of the Household): I have been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend has received a number of statements regarding the effect of oil pollution on inshore fisheries and has transmitted information on this subject through the Board of Trade to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for use in connection with the inquiries which are at present being conducted by the Communications and Transit Organisation of the League of Nations.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: Will the Minister consider the great harm done to bird life by the discharge of oil?

  AGRICULTURE.

    FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
    Lieut.-Colonel TODDasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in the view of his Department, the importation of chilled or frozen meat from the Argentine is a possible source of infection of foot-and-mouth disease in England?
    Sir G. BOWYER: My right hon. Friend is advised that whilst there is no evidence that the virus of foot-and-mouth disease could remain alive in the flesh of chilled or frozen meat during the transit of such meat from South America to this country, it would be possible for the virus to survive in the bone marrow of such meat.
    Lieut.-Colonel TODD: In view of the terrible loss from the slaughter policy, would it not be fair to place an embargo on Argentine meat?
    Lieut.-Colonel TODDasked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Government have considered the position of farmers and landowners affected
    486 directly, and indirectly, by foot-and-mouth disease outbreaks, who continued to receive tithe rentcharge demands, and who have no protection against distress being levied upon their implements of husbandry, tools of trade, and stock for failure to meet these demands; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter?
    Sir G. BOWYER: As regards the first part of the question, compensation payable to farmers in respect of an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease is related solely to the market value at the time of slaughter of any animals which may be slaughtered by direction of the Ministry on account of their being affected with foot-and-mouth disease or of their being exposed in any manner to infection. Such compensation is not directly related to any liabilities. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
    Lieut.-Colonel TODD: Does the Minister realise that the consequential losses are far greater than the direct losses due to slaughter?
    Sir G. BOWYER: Yes, but I am sure the hon. and gallant Member will realise that the Ministry of Agriculture has no jurisdiction over tithe rentcharge.

    SUGAR-BEET INDUSTRY.
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will be in a position to make a definite pronouncement of Government policy with regard to the Greene Report on the sugar-beet industry before the House rises for the Summer Recess?
    Sir G. BOWYER: My right hon. Friend hopes this will be possible.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Do not the Government think that this matter is of vital importance considering it was a majority report and that the money is getting short?

  AVIATION.

    AIRCRAFT AND ENGINES (EXPORTS).
    Dr. ADDISONasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of aircraft and of aircraft engines made by British manuacturers exported during the year ended May, 1935, and, in particular, what numbers of aircraft and of

    487
    engines have been supplied to China, Japan, Germany, and Italy, respectively?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: As the answer involves a table of figures I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Dr. ADDISON: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the total exports were not 408 aeroplanes and 583 aeroplane engines?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: They were the total exports of United Kingdom manufacture.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman guarantee that none of these aeroplane engines will be used in bombing aeroplanes?
    Following is the answer:

    The following statement shows the number of complete aeroplanes and of aeroplane engines of United Kingdom manufacture exported during the twelve months ended May, 1935, distinguishing those consigned to the countries specified.

    —

    Aeroplanes complete.

    Aeroplane engines.

    Number.

    Number.

    Total exports (United Kingdom manufacture).

    408

    583

    Of which consigned to—

    China

    —

    —

    Japan

    1

    1

    Germany

    5

    80

    Italy

    1

    23

    Dr. ADDISONasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the fact that aircraft engines of types similar to those supplied to British air forces have been supplied to other nations by British firms during the past year, he has taken any steps to secure that British requirements have priority of supply?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): Yes, Sir. Steps are taken to insure that the required deliveries to the Royal Air Force are not prejudiced.
    Dr. ADDISON: In view of the fact that last year 583 aeroplane engines and 483 aeroplanes were exported, may I ask how long these arrangements have been in existence to secure priority of supply for British requirements?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: There has always been a very close contact with the firms working for His Majesty's Government in order to ensure what the right hon. Gentleman quite rightly asks, namely, that we make sure that we get our machines when we want them.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with aeroplane manufacturers in this country supplying engines to Germany and other countries for their bombing planes?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: As long as we have an export—
    Mr. SPEAKER: Order. That question does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
    Dr. ADDISONasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the fact that aircraft engines of types similar to those supplied to British air forces have been supplied to other nations by British firms during the past year, he is taking any steps to secure that those designs and types whose development has been assisted by the Air Department and officers and services under its direction are being safeguarded for those national purposes which the assistance rendered was designed to serve?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Yes, Sir. Adequate steps are taken to safeguard the interests of national defence in this matter.
    Dr. ADDISON: In view of the fact that experiments in the elaboration of designs are largely assisted by the right hon. Gentleman's Department, may I ask what steps he can take to prevent the designs thus elaborated being incorporated in the machines included in this vast volume of exports?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Nor is this anything new. For years past all the service departments have had arrangements with the firms which manufacture for the Government as to what should be and what should not be exported.
    Dr. ADDISON: Is it not a fact that among those exports there are engines of a highly specialised kind which have been elaborated with the assistance of the Air Ministry?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: It is not at all a new problem. Every country

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    which manufactures aeroplanes and exports aeroplanes, as all manufacturing countries do, faces exactly the same problem, and I have no doubt they deal with it in exactly the same way; and I can give the House a complete assurance that British interests are not prejudiced, while at the same time we do secure a very fair share of the export trade, and that seems to be practical business.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that designs from this or any other Government Department ought to be used directly or indirectly to provide weapons of war for other countries; and does he not think it would be far better not to export bombing aeroplanes and so dispense with the need of gas masks in this country?
    Mr. PALING: May I ask whether engines which are specialised for the use of our Air Force are allowed to be exported?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The last thing in the world I should want to do would be to disclose exactly the precise regulations which are made, but for years past there has been a perfectly recognised understanding between the Defence Departments and the industries concerned as to what it is and what it is not desirable to use in the export trade.
    Mr. D. GRENFELL: Would not the problem of rearmament be very much simplified if restrictions were placed upon the export of these machines?

    EMPIRE AIR SERVICES.
    Mr. SIMMONDSasked the Secretary of State for Air the present position of negotiations with His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions as regards the augmented Empire air services?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The reply which I gave on 3rd July to my hon. Friend the Member for East Willesden (Mr. D. G. Somerville) applies to the Empire air mail services generally. Considerable progress has been made with the negotiations, but I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any further statement.

  COMPANIES ACT.
  Sir W. SMITHERSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the possibility of investors being
  490
  misled by the use of the word "bank" in the title of concerns which are not deposit banks, he will consider the advisability of amending the Companies' Act so as to ensure that the use of the word "bank" in the title of a company or firm shall necessitate conformity with defined conditions?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: The suggestion of my hon. Friend has been noted for in vestigation when the amendment of the Companies Act is under consideration.
  Sir W. SMITHERS: If the President is not able to introduce legislation to amend the Companies Act, does he contemplate some other action to stop people taking advantage of an ignorant and gullible public? Is not some action possible?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Not that I know of.
  Sir W. SMITHERS: Not by regulations?

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    SUNDAY WORK, SCOTLAND.
    Mr. LAWSONasked the Secretary for Mines whether there has been any improvement in the matter of Sunday work in pits in Scotland?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Captain Crookshank): The hon. Member will appreciate that it is impracticable without a prolonged and detailed inquiry to give any exact figures, but I am satisfied from such information as I have been able to obtain, that there has been an appreciable reduction in Sunday productive work during the last few months; some collieries have discontinued Sunday production, and I understand that in all the remainder the percentage of men employed on Sunday has been reduced. I shall continue to have the position watched.
    Mr. LAWSON: Is the Ministry keeping a close watch on overtime in this and other districts in the mining industry?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: This question refers to Sunday work, and I have said that I have every intention of watching it most closely.
    Mr. BATEY: Is the Minister in a position to say how many collieries in Scotland are now working on Sunday?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: Not without notice.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Will my hon. and gallant Friend's inquiries cover Sunday speaking by members of the Labour party?

    EXPORTS (HUMBER PORTS).
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is in a position to make a statement with regard to the findings of the Midland (Amalgamated) Committee of Investigation into the complaints of shortage of coal made by the Humber Coal Exporters Association?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: At the end of last week I received a report from the Midland (Amalgamated) Committee of Investigation that the provisions of the district scheme require amendment, possibly by means of an export tonnage pool, to provide for greater elasticity in connection with the supply of coal for export and for foreign and trawler bunkers. Under the provisions of Section 5 (6) of the 1930 Act, I have to consult the interests which appear to be affected before I reach any decision on this report. I have accordingly asked the executive board administering the district scheme and the complainants to let me have their observations on the report as soon as possible.
    Mr. SMITH: Is it expected that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will be able to give some statement to the House before we rise at the end of this month, in view of the very grave urgency of the matter both from the point of view of the exporters and the men employed in the coalfields?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I recognise the urgency of the matter, but I cannot deal with it until the complainants and the executive board have let me have their observations on the report. I have no doubt they will do that quickly.

  POST OFFICE.

    JUBILEE POSTAGE STAMPS.
    Sir PERCY HURDasked the Postmaster-General when the issue of Jubilee postage stamps will cease, in view of the awkward form of these stamps?
    The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Ernest Bennett): I anticipate that the stocks of Jubilee stamps will be exhausted in about 10 days' time, except at small offices.
    Sir P. HURD: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the unappetising taste of the gum on these stamps?

    TELEPHONE SERVICE (FARMS).
    Sir G. FOX (for Sir A. WILSON)asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that for the six eastern counties the weighted average of the percentage of farms of all sizes equipped with telephones is only 12 per cent.; and whether he will consider what steps he can take by increasing the free mileage radius or otherwise to procure an improvement of this figure?
    Sir E. BENNETT: I have no information to confirm the percentage figure quoted by my hon. and gallant Friend, but I fully share his desire to increase the use of the telephone service by farmers. The whole question of encouraging a wider use of the telephone service in rural areas is at present under active consideration.

  SCOTLAND (HOUSING, EDINBURGH).
  Mr. GUYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will state what steps he has taken, and proposes to take, to expedite the slum-clearance and housing schemes of the Edinburgh Corporation for the current year?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): The Department of Health, in accordance with the instructions of my right hon. Friend, keeps in close touch with the Corporation of Edinburgh, as with other housing authorities, with regard to their housing programme. The resulting position is as follows:
  The Corporation proposed to build annually during the five years 750 slum clearance houses and subsequently agreed to increase this number to 1,000, if circumstances permitted. In fact, tenders were approved for 1,006 houses for the first year. The majority of these are now completed and the remainder are nearing completion. With regard to the second year, that is the current year,

  493
  tenders have been approved, or will shortly be submitted, for approximately 600 houses. Further, it is understood that plans are in course of preparation and adjustment in connection with the second year programme for approximately a further 510 houses. It is anticipated that a certain number of these will be for the purpose of dealing with overcrowding under the Bill at present before Parliament. It is impossible to say at present how many houses will be completed during the second year.
  Mr. GUY: While thanking my hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask whether his attention has been called to a statement by the Socialist convenor of the Edinburgh housing committee that the Edinburgh housing scheme has been retarded by the action of the Department of Health, and whether there is any truth in that statement?
  Mr. SKELTON: I have seen such a statement in the Press, but I do not think there is any truth at all in it. There was one matter in regard to which there was a misunderstanding between the Corporation and the Department. The Corporation announced that they proposed to build some houses under the Bill at present before Parliament and they took that to be a formal application, but the Department—and I think rightly—could not regard it as a formal application. Apart from that, there is a certain question as to what number of two-roomed houses, if any, the Corporation should be allowed to build, but I do not think that anything that happened can be regarded as delaying the housing programme.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is it not the case that the Tory Council of Edinburgh stopped a slum clearance scheme and that the Government stepped in—
  Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. Mander.

  GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will arrange for a White Paper to be published explanatory of the Lords Amendments to the Government of India Bill before the Amendments are considered by this House?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Butler): So far as I am aware there is no precedent for the issue of a White Paper explaining Lords Amendments, but I am arranging for an explanatory note on the Lords Amendments to the Government of India Bill to be made available to Members as soon as possible after the Amendments are received from another place.

  ITALY AND ABYSSINIA.
  Mr. PERKINSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any arrangements have been made to evacuate British residents in Abyssinia in the event of war breaking out?
  Mr. EDEN: The whole question of the safety of British subjects in Abyssinia has been engaging the close attention of His Majesty's Government for some time past, and my right hon. Friend is in active consultation on the subject with His Majesty's Minister at Addis Ababa.
  Mr. PERKINS: Is my right hon. Friend aware that during the troubles in Afghanistan in 1927 and 1928 between 500 and 600 British nationals were removed by means of large aircraft, and, in view of that fact, does he not consider it, advisable that certain British aircraft should be drafted to Aden or the Sudan in order to carry out an evacuation in this case on similar lines if that should be necessary?
  Mr. EDEN: I am aware of what happened before, but I cannot go beyond my answer.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the French or any other Government were informed beforehand of the proposed cession of British territory to Abyssinia with a view to a, settlement of the Italo-Ethiopian dispute; and whether it was intended at a later stage that the matter should have been brought before the Council of the League of Nations for approval?
  Mr. EDEN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, but on this point I would refer the hon. Member to the last part of the reply which I gave to a question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Sir P. Hurd) on 4th July. As regards the

  495
  second part, I have no doubt that appropriate steps would have been taken to keep the Council informed.
  Mr. MANDER: Do I understand from that that no prior information whatever was given to the French Government, and is that consistent with the Stresa Agreement?
  Mr. EDEN: Certainly. Strictly.

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    DOCUMENTS.
    Sir JOHN POWERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in order to increase the facilities of hon. Members in the matter of access to original sources of information on international affairs, both political and economic, he will consider the possibility of making arrangements to place in the Vote Office supplies of copies of the more important documents issued by the League of Nations as and when they are published?
    Mr. EDEN: The minutes of the meetings of the Council and the Assembly, the documents printed in the League of Nations Official Journal, the Monthly Summary of the League of Nations, and the League Bulletin of Statistics are automatically made available in the Library for consultation by Members, and my right hon. Friend is prepared, whenever asked to do so, to endeavour to obtain for hon. Members copies of particular documents in which they are interested. In these circumstances I think hon. Members will agree that the automatic supply of League of Nations documents in the Vote Office would, on financial grounds, hardly be justified.

    COVENANT.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES (for Mr. MORGAN JONES)asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a report has been published of the recent session of the economic and financial sub-committee of the League of Nations Council, on the financial and economic measures which could be taken against a state which endangered peace by the unilateral repudiation of its international obligations; and what further action it is intended to take on this matter?
    Mr. EDEN: The body referred to by the hon. Member is a sub-Committee of the Committee of Thirteen, not a sub-Committee of the Council of the League. The sub-Committee is still in session. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for East Fulham (Mr. Wilmot) on 8th July.

  BOLIVIA AND PARAGUAY.
  Sir J. POWERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further statement to make in respect of the restoration of normal relationships between Bolivia and Paraguay?
  Mr. EDEN: At the first meeting of the Peace Conference at Buenos Ayres on the 1st July, it was unanimously decided to ratify the Protocol of the 12th June and to extend the truce provided for in that agreement until such time as the stipulated measures of security should have been completed.

  INTERNATIONAL CURRENCY.
  Mr. T. SMITH (for Mr. THORNE)asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the opportunity provided by the attendance of the governor of the Bank of England at the recent meeting of the Bank of International Settlement at Basle was used by the Treasury to raise the question of currency stabilisation?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): No, Sir.

  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
  Mr. T. SMITH (for Mr. THORNE)asked the Minister of Health whether the Ministry have yet come to a decision in the case of Mrs. A. E. Wickens, of 161, Charlemont Road, East Ham, which was adjourned at Stratford Court for a decision to be made as to her late husband's position under the National Health and Widows' and Orphans' Contributory Pensions Acts?
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. LAMBERT WARD (Vice-Chamberlain of the Household): I have been asked to reply. It is not yet possible to give a decision in this case. The application which has been

  497
  made to my right hon. Friend is for a formal determination under Section 89 of the Insurance Act; this necessitates legal procedure involving the different parties which must inevitably take some time, and may eventually require an oral hearing of the case. The necessary formalities are now in process of completion and a decision will not be deferred any longer than is needed to comply with the legal requirements in the matter.

  PALESTINE (ENGLISH).
  Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are now being taken in the elementary schools in Palestine to enable children to learn English?
  The SECRETARY of STATE. for the COLONIES (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): Since the beginning of the British occupation, English has been taught in all Government elementary schools in the towns. In the Arab village schools, English is only taught in exceptional cases where the size of the school or other circumstances justify it. English is also taught in the town schools controlled by the General Council of the Jewish community, and in nearly all other town schools, but is not taught, except in a few cases, in the schools in the Jewish agricultural settlements.
  Mr. PALING: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to the circular issued to Members, stating that 75 per cent. of the total of the Arab children do not go to school because there are no schools for them?
  Mr. MacDONALD: My attention has not been drawn to the circular.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
  The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
  "35. MR. MALLALIEU,—To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, if his attention has been drawn to developments in Scotland in the production of motor-spirit from alcohol; and if he can state whether this alcohol is manufactured from home or imported material."
  Mr. CURRY: May I ask, Mr. Speaker, with respect, if you have not overlooked Question 35?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I called the hon. Member's name a second time, and he did not rise.

  ELECTRICITY DISTRIBUTION (INQUIRY).
  Mr. LANSBURY(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Transport whether he proposes to institute any inquiry into the need for improving the distribution of electricity in this country?
  Mr. HORE-BELSHA: Yes, Sir. This matter has been closely studied by the Electricity Commissioners in the ordinary course of their duties and has engaged the attention of the Government. The House will recall that a small committee under the chairmanship of Lord Weir investigated the national problem of the supply of electrical energy and that upon their recommendations the Electricity Supply Act of 1926 was based. Following upon the co-ordination of generation which has now been secured by that Act, the Government have decided to appoint Sir Harry McGowan, Sir John Snell, who is chairman of the Electricity Commissioners, and Mr. John Morison, chartered accountant, to review the existing organisation of distribution, with the following terms of reference:
  To bring under review the organisation of the distribution of electricity in Great Britain including the control of statutory electricity companies by other companies, to advise on methods by which improvements can be effected with a view to ensuring and expediting the standardisation of systems, pressures and methods of charge, further extending facilities (including supplies in rural areas) and reducing costs, and to make recommendations.
  Viscountess ASTOR: May I ask whether the Government will consider adding Miss Haslett to that Committee, because she is one of the outstanding women in the Electrical Association, and I am sure that the Electrical Association would highly recommend her? Much of it is a woman's job.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the Prime Minister if he will tell us the business for next week?
The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): Monday: Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) Money (No. 2) Resolution; Report and Third Reading of the

499
National Health Insurance and Contributory Pensions Bill; Second Reading of the House of Commons Disqualification (Declaration of Law) Bill; Committee stage of the British Sugar (Subsidy) Bill.
Tuesday: Supply, Committee (14th Allotted day), Home Office Vote.
Wednesday: Supply, Committee (15th Allotted day), Ministry of Health Vote.
Thursday: Supply, Committee (16th Allotted day). The Vote will be announced later.
Friday: Second Reading of the Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) Bill.
On any day, if there is time, other Orders may be taken.
Mr. LANSBURY: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman not to take it for granted that the whole of the Orders he has announced for Monday can be got through in anything like a, reasonable time. One or two of them we shall require to discuss, I think, rather more at length than the right hon. Gentleman has contemplated.
The PRIME MINISTER: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will permit me to hope.
Mr. LANSBURY: I hope the weather will be cooler.

JOURNALISTS (REGISTRATION) BILL,
"to provide for the registration of journalists; and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Sir Percy Hurd; supported by Mr. Clarry, Captain Arthur Evans, Mr. Richard Law, Mr. Temple Morris, and Mr. Graham White; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 110.]
ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL,
"to amend the law with respect to Customs in the Isle of Man," presented by Mr. Duff Cooper; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 111.]
BILLS REPORTED.

  PUBLIC HEALTH (WATER AND SEWERAGE) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Reported, without Amendment, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
  Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Monday next.

  CRIMINAL LUNATICS (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords].
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 109.]

  STOURBRIDGE NAVIGATION BILL [Lords].
  Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Bill, as amended, to lie upon the Table.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—

Metropolitan Common Scheme (Palewell) Provisional Order Bill,

Bognor Gas and Electricity Bill, without Amendment.

Maidstone Corporation Bill,

Reading Corporation Bill,

Fylde Water Board Bill, with Amendments.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [13TH ALOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]

  SUPPLY.
    CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1935.
      CLASS II.

        FOREIGN OFFICE.
        Motion made, and Question proposed,
        "That a sum, not exceeding £108,900, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."
        3.41 p.m.
        The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Samuel Hoare): I trust that hon. Members will not think it rash or presumptuous on my part if, within a few weeks of going to the Foreign Office, I attempt to make a rather fuller statement of foreign policy than is sometimes made, and if I attempt to deal with the questions that I know are in the mind of every hon. and right hon. Member by trying to fit them into the bigger background of our foreign policy generally. So far as I am concerned, I would gladly have delayed making this statement for weeks, or, indeed, months. I felt that, after four years under the suns of India, I required a little time to acclimatise myself to the colder winds of Europe. I felt also that, if I was going to jump into the water, I would rather jump into the shallow end than into the deepest part of the pool. But there it is; the House and I have to take things as they are; and I believe, myself, that the House will expect the British Foreign Secretary, whoever he may be, to give his views on the questions which are in everybody's mind, and will feel that, if he does not give his views, there will be the risk of rumour, misrepresentation and misunderstanding running riot. Finding myself, therefore, in the deep end of the pool, I intend to start swimming at once, and I intend also, even at some risk to myself, to avoid the shallow end of platitudes and generalities.
        Let me begin by reminding the House of the kind of background against which
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        we have to consider the urgent questions of the moment. The War left the world impoverished, suspicious, irritable and apprehensive. The War also impressed upon the minds of most people the fact that peace is peace as a whole; and, indeed, it was that conception that led the countries of the world to form the League of Nations. Thirdly, the War left the world with almost everyone in it who is at all interested in public affairs deeply interested in foreign politics. I have said that the War left the world impoverished and suspicious. Have we not seen many signs in these 15 years to that effect? Have we not seen the judgment of the world often embittered and biased? Have we not seen the nerves of almost every country in the world frayed? Have we not seen almost always the temperature of the world higher than it should be, and perhaps the critical faculty of the world more highly developed than it would be in more normal times? Moreover, there are many people—I am not thinking of anyone or any country in particular—there are many people who seem to take a morbid delight in alarms and excursions, in a psychology, shall I say, of fear, perhaps even of brutality.
        Only yesterday I heard of a small child, a child of one of my friends, who was found surrounded by a number of air balloons, and her nurse said to her, "Why is it that you have so many air balloons?" The child answered, "I like to make myself afraid by popping." That may be a harmless habit in the case of a child, but it is a dangerous habit in the case of the many alarm-mongers and scaremongers who now seem to take this delight in creating crises, and, if there be crises, in making the crises worse than they otherwise would be. Even in the few weeks during which I have been at the Foreign Office, I have remembered more than once the episode recounted by Voltaire of a young man, the son of a king, who appeared to be becoming active and loquacious. The king determined to cure him of what he thought to be a bad habit. Accordingly he sat by his side four chamberlains. Two of them were to say, whenever the young man looked like saying something, "The prince is sure to be right," and two of them were to say, as soon as the prince had said anything, "The prince is right." The result of that procedure was just what we should

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        expect. The prince became taciturn, and neither said nor did anything at all. If you substitute, for "He is going to be right" and "He is right," "He is going to be wrong" and "He is wrong," it not inaptly describes the Job's comforters who at the present moment surround many of the Foreign Secretaries of the world. I am inclined to think that the more they say, "He will be wrong," and the more they say "He is wrong," the more likely it is that the result will be the same as it was in the case of the prince, and that Foreign Secretaries both here and in other countries will be tempted to give up saying or doing anything at all.
        I venture, therefore, in all humility to make an appeal, which I am sure the House will excuse my making on the first occasion on which I address it as Foreign Secretary; and I want to make this appeal, not so much to the House and to the country generally, but to other countries as well. It is that we should try to introduce, both into our conduct and into our consideration of questions of foreign policy, a little more good nature, a little more common sense, a little more of the kindly tolerance which we believe has been one of the best characteristics of the British people. It is in that sense that I aproach the difficult questions that we are here this afternoon mainly to consider. It is in that spirit that I would ask hon. Members in every part of the House to consider them—not from the point of view of trying to destroy this or that course of action by negative criticism, but to face the difficulties, and, if they have constructive proposals, to make constructive proposals.
        I begin with the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. The Naval Agreement is in no sense a selfish agreement. On no account could we have made an agreement that was not manifestly in our view to the advantage of the other naval Powers. On no account could we have made an agreement that we did not think, so far from hindering general agreement, would actually further it. The question of naval disarmament has always been treated distinctively from the question of land and air disarmament. The naval question has always been treated apart, and it was always the intention, so far as I know, of the naval Powers to treat it apart.
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        Apart, however, from the juridical position, there seemed to us to be, in the interests of peace—which is the main objective of the British Government—overwhelming reasons why we should conclude the Agreement. In the opinion of our naval experts, we were advised to accept the Agreement as a safe agreement for the British Empire. Here again we saw a chance that might not recur of eliminating one of the causes that chiefly led to the embitterment before the Great War—the race of German naval armaments. Incidentally, out of that discussion arose the very important statement of the German Government that henceforth, so far as they were concerned, they would eliminate one of the causes that made the War so terrible, namely, the unrestricted use of submarines against merchant ships. Thirdly, we came definitely to the view that there was a chance of making an agreement that seemed on naval grounds manifestly to the advantage of other naval Powers, including France. On this point I have a particular word to say. From the practical point of view, the position assured to the French Navy is one of great and solid advantage compared with its pre-War position. With the French Fleet at approximately its present level as compared with our own Fleet, the Agreement gives France a permanent superiority over the German Fleet of 43 per cent., as compared with an inferiority of about 30 per cent. before the War. I am quite aware that the logical and juridical mind often sees things from an angle different from that of the empirical and the practical. But His Majesty's Government have no apologies to make for a practical all-round contribution to peace.
        Of one thing I am sure. Had His Majesty's Government refused to pursue an agreement profitable alike to peace and to the taxpayer, not only in this but in other countries, our critics at home would have been the first to throw at us not bouquets but the stones of justifiable criticism. To our friendly critics abroad I would say, in defence of our realist attitude, that, where any of our foreign friends have in the past seen fit to conclude independent arrangements for their own advantage and security and without detriment to anyone or consultation with anyone, we have not only not criticised but have ap-

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        plauded and done our best to assist, as they know that we are doing now and shall continue to do. I am, therefore, bold enough to believe that, when the world looks more dispassionately at these results, the overwhelming majority of those who stand for peace and a restriction of armaments will say that the British Government took not only a wise course but the only course that in the circumstances was open to them.
        I pass from the naval question to the question of the Air Pact—the present state of the negotiations—and I will put before the House as frankly as I can the present position. We are anxious for an Air Pact accompanied by air limitation. Years ago, when I was Secretary of State for Air, I remember expressing the view that an Air Pact was necessary for the future peace of the world. Even 10 years ago, long before aircraft became as formidable in speed, performance and destructive power as they are now, it seemed to me that the danger of a knockout blow was so great that only the deterrent of an almost overwhelming Air Force might save the world from a great catastrophe. I believe those views are generally shared by the great majority of Members. We all want an Air Pact. We all want air limitation. The question may then arise, If we all want an Air Pact and we all want air limitation, why is it that an Air Pact cannot be concluded without further delay? I think, when I have put the position before the Committee, they will see that the problem is not quite so simple as it may at first sight appear.
        I would remind the Committee that the fundamental condition of an Air Pact is that the five Powers must all agree to it. It is not always easy to get five Powers to agree even to a basis of negotiation about anything. In the case of the Air Pact there is the fact—it is no good blinking facts—that several of the Governments, among them the French Government, take the view that peace is an indivisible whole, and that you cannot deal with one part at a time, but that you must deal with all parts of it together. Let us take into account this view, and let me analyse it to see how far it is justified by the actual position, how far it is a fact that peace is one and indivisible, and that it is impossible to deal with one part of the problem before you deal with the problem as a whole.
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        I would say it is an indisputable fact that, as a result of modern developments, particularly as a result of the development of flying, it is becoming more and more difficult to dissociate one great question of the world from other great questions of the world. It is becoming more and more difficult for any country to adopt an attitude isolated from the attitude of other countries. We may regret the fact. We may look back with regret to the days, the pre-aviation days, when we could lead an insular existence, when we had an undisputed naval supremacy, when our trade had few or no rivals, when we could live our national life complacently, peacefully and usually prosperously. I wish we could back to those days. But we cannot recreate the past, and we have got to take the situation as it is, and to face facts as they are.
        Let me illustrate the contention that peace is a single whole by trying to answer a question which, I am sure, has been in the minds of many hon. Members, and it is certainly in my own mind. It is this: What has Great Britain to do with an Eastern Pact, that is to say, a pact of non-aggression in Eastern Europe? Let me tell the Committee what I believe to be the interest of Great Britain in an Eastern Pact, and what I also believe to be the interest of Great Britain in a pact of non-aggression for Central Europe. There is no question of further commitments. But the exclusion of further commitments on our part, to which frequent allusion has been made in the past, does not exclude our interest in these settlements. There are many Governments in Europe—I need not name them—that regard the centre and East of Europe as the danger points. Certain of them go as far as to believe that a settlement in the West by an air pact separated from a settlement of the other peace questions would make the danger in the East even more acute than it is at present. While I cannot go the length of these fears, I do none the less agree that a war started in the centre or East of Europe might, indeed, judging by experience, probably would, lead to a general conflagration, and that on this account it is essential to deal, and to deal without delay, with any danger points that may exist. This is the reason why the British Government is most anxious to see an Eastern and a

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        Danubian Pact of non-aggression concluded at the earliest possible moment.
        There was a time when the German Chancellor was opposed to an Eastern Pact. The proposals took a form that he could not accept. All that, however, is changed now. The German Chancellor agreed, during the Stresa Conference, that objection would not be raised to the conclusion by others of pacts of mutual assistance, provided that no more was expected of Germany than agreements of non-aggression, of consultation and denial of assistance to the aggressor. The German Chancellor further stated in his recent speech:
        "The German Government are ready in principle to conclude pacts of non-aggression with their individual neighbours, and to supplement them by every provision which aims at isolating the combatants and localising the war-makers."
        The French Government have notified the German Government that they accept the German proposals as a basis of negotiation. I believe that the Danubian Pact is susceptible of similar treatment. There is, therefore, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, now no longer any reason at all why rapid progress should not be made toward the conclusion of an Eastern Pact; and His Majesty's Government have fully explained to the German Government their view to this effect.
        It is now in the power of the German Chancellor to make and to make easily a real contribution to the cause of peace, a contribution which will remove a cause of anxiety from the minds of many Governments not only in Central and Eastern Europe but in Western Europe as well. I would venture to urge him to make it. I think, indeed, that he will be serving his own cause by making it. He himself spoke very frankly in his speech of 21st May, and he will, I know, feel no resentment if I speak equally frankly. We here—indeed the world at large—have been disturbed not only by Germany's programme of rearmament, but also by certain other phenomena in modern Germany. None the less we have taken the Chancellor at his word, and only in the last few weeks we have given practical proof of it by concluding with him the Naval Agreement to which I have already referred. We have, thereby, as we hope, taken
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        a step forward on the road to reconciliation. But reconciliation, like peace, is one and manifold; and all roads lead to many capitals. Let him now therefore take the next necessary step forward, and help on the negotiation of the Eastern and Danubian Pacts, thereby giving a great impulse to the conclusion of an Air Pact, which I know that he desires.
        I hope I have said enough to convince the Committee that we are deeply and continuously interested in the settlement of Central and Eastern Europe. This leads me naturally to a subject which I desire particularly to mention before I come back to the Air Pact—the independence and integrity of Austria. Time after time we have explained our considered view that Austria occupies strategically and economically a key position in Europe, and that a change in her status would shake the foundations of European peace. We shall continue, therefore, to take the closest and most sympathetic interest in the courageous efforts that her Government and her people are making to maintain and strengthen her independent existence. This is one of the reasons why the British Government would like to see a Danubian Pact of non-aggression and non-interference concluded for Central Europe without further delay.
        The Committee will see that I have purposely digressed for a few minutes from the question of the Air Pact to deal with other features of peace in Central and Eastern Europe. I have purposely digressed with the object of showing to what extent one question in Europe depends upon another. For our part, we wish to see them all settled, and with that sincere intention of settlement we say, let simultaneous discussion start upon them all. An Air Pact cannot be completed without quintuple agreement. No one, therefore, is being compromised by beginning the negotiations. And here, again, we shall arrive the sooner at our needful destinations if we all practise good humour, common sense and tolerance, of which I spoke at the beginning of my speech, and let us all be realists and keep our minds open to the future course of procedure, when we see how we progress on as wide a front as possible, bearing always in mind that a practical world will expect of us practical results, and will not for ever wish the whole

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        coach to stand still should one horse lag behind. So far as in us lies, we shall do out utmost to see that the team moves forward steadily and evenly. And peace is team work, and sometimes collar-work, which calls for a sustained effort on the part of us all.
        I have spoken, and I believe I have spoken truly, of the universality of peace, and the interest of this country in pursuing a policy of general peace. I now come to the question of the machinery of peace, and particularly the machinery of collective peace. Let one say at the outset—though of course I do not wish to discuss the subject to-day—that you cannot have collective security without not only contribution, but proportional contribution. You cannot defend a principle, let alone a neighbour, if you are not prepared and able to defend yourself. By all means let us have peace and reconstruction, but we shall never have it by the force of words unsupported by adequate measure for defending ourselves and carrying out our commitments. The Government at least intend to practise realism, and would be lacking in their duty to collective peace if they failed to do so.
        This observation brings me to the key of collective security, to the League of Nations and the British attitude towards it. When I consider the League, I think of it from two standpoints, I think of it, first, from the British standpoint from which we should regard one of our own institutions, for example, the Imperial Parliament. I believe that the strength of the League in Great Britain, just as the strength of the British Parliament, depends upon the amount of public opinion behind it in this country, and on the adaptability of a great institution to a continually changing world. Secondly, I consider the League not from the angle of the past but from the angle of the future. I think much less of what it has done and what it has failed to do in the last 15 years than of what it may do in the next 15 years if it is given a fair chance.
        The more I look at the future prospect, whether it be a near or a far prospect, the more sure I am that a system of collective security is essential to peace and stability and that the League best provides the necessary machinery. If the system of collective security that is
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        gradually being built up with great care and patience were smashed, if the League became so feeble and futile as to have no real influence upon the course of events, the old system of alliances, that is the reverse of collective security, must necessarily reappear with all its ancient disquiets and intrigues. I said earlier that the War had not left an easy or gentle world; but it would have been, and would be, far worse without the League. As things are and as long as there is an effective League and a system of collective security we are ready and willing to take our full share of collective responsibility. But when I say collective responsibility, I mean collective responsibility. Over and over again we have stated, and no one better than the Prime Minister, our fidelity to the League and its principles, and I reaffirm it to-day.
        This has been the settled policy of this Government, but it has also been the settled policy of every Government since the War. It is the settled policy not of one party but of all parties in the State. We are all, therefore, in duty bound to do our utmost to prevent the development of any crisis that is likely to weaken or destroy the principles upon which the League was built and upon which its influence for peace depends. This is the reason for our grave interest in the Abyssinian controversy. This is the reason why, even at the risk of criticism, we have been prepared to make constructive proposals for the avoidance of a war that, however it ends, must have serious repercussions upon the whole League system. This is our sole reason for our efforts to find a basis of settlement. Here in this House, at any rate, I need not repeat in detail the complete contradiction that we have given to the wild statements as to our motives and our action that have been made in certain sections of the Italian Press. We have no ulterior motive but the motive of a peaceful settlement, and the statements that we are thinking of our own colonial interests and that we are massing troops in the neighbouring British colonies are completely devoid of foundation. I trust that my contradiction will be given the fullest possible publicity in any Italian papers that made themselves responsible for these groundless charges.
        I come now to the actual situation. I will purposely not repeat the details of

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        the conversation between Signor Mussolini and the Minister for League of Nations Affairs. The conversation was confidential; it took place at our request, and on my right hon. Friend's side was conducted on the instructions that he had received from the Government. It was, I am certain, of positive value that this discussion should have taken place. I will make only one observation upon it. Signor Mussolini and the Minister for League of Nations Affairs could not have spoken more frankly to each other.
        I should like also to make it clear that we have always understood and well understand Italy's desire for overseas expansion. Indeed, we have in the past done our best to show our sympathy with Italian aspirations in a practical way. In 1925 we ceded Jubaland to Italy, and in the present negotiations we showed our willingness to endeavour to ensure for Italy some territorial satisfaction by a reasonable and legitimate arrangement with Abyssinia, to which I will return in a few minutes. Let no one therefore in Italy, in view of these outward and visible signs of our sympathy, suggest that we are unsympathetic to Italian aspirations.
        We admit the need for Italian expansion. We admit again the justice of some of the criticisms that have been made against the Abyssinian Government. But are the facts that Italy needs expansion and that complaints are made against the Abyssinian Government sufficient cause for plunging into a war? We have surely found in the past that it is possible to adjust demands and differences of this kind without recourse to war, and I am not prepared even now to abandon any chance that may present itself for averting what I believe will be a calamity, whether it be through the machinery of the 1906 Treaty, or whether it be through the machinery of the League, or whether it be through both. To-day I cannot say more than that we are working on these lines. In the meanwhile, let hon. Members dismiss from their minds the rumours, altogether without foundation, that we have asked the French Government to join in a blockade of Italy and that we ourselves are preparing some isolated form of coercion against the country which has been our friend since the Risorgimento. We stand for peace, and we will not abandon any reasonable
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        chance that may offer itself for helping to prevent a disastrous war.
        I promised a moment ago to say a word about the so-called Zeila project. The facts are already clearly before the House. Here also the Government have no apology to make. I myself may have used an unfortunate phrase in reply to a supplementary question the other day, but that does not in any way lessen the fact that the Government are in no way to blame. The Government feel that they took the only course that was open. We have all professed our belief in the League of Nations. I profess my belief in the League of Nations to-day. I say to those who profess their belief in the League of Nations that it is an obligation upon us, when we see the system of the League of Nations threatened, to make constructive proposals, if we can find them, for avoiding what we believe would be a calamity. It is in that spirit that my right hon. Friend went to Rome.
        We knew that any suggestion that we might make would probably be open to criticism. We knew that our action might very well be misunderstood, and might very well be misinterpreted, but we felt that the issues were so serious that it was essential that we should make some constructive proposal with a view to preventing a calamity. I am glad that we made that proposal. I believe myself that if it had reached the point at which we could have submitted it to this House and to our treaty-partners, not only that every Member of the Government would have rejoiced but that nine out of 10 hon. Members would have rejoiced with us. I believe further that if we had not come forward with a constructive proposal of this kind many would have blamed us, and we should have blamed ourselves subsequently for not having tried any reasonable expedient that seemed open to us to help to prevent a catastrophe that might have the widest possible reactions. I believe also that when these questions are put in their right perspective many hon. Members who are surprised, and perhaps rightly surprised, at the offer will agree with us that we took a wise course and that we had no right to allow minor difficulties to stand in the way of the possibility of a major settlement.
        I have now said something about each of the three burning questions of the

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        moment, and for each of them once again I ask for the good humour, common sense and kindly tolerance of every hon. Member when he comes to consider them.
        I now pass, if I am not unduly wearying the Committee, to say a word or two about our foreign relations with certain other countries. I will begin with our old and intimate collaborator, France. She has filled that part for 30 years. It is a friendship which reposes fundamentally on a common political theory of freedom, too easily forgotten and under-estimated in these days, and it reposes furthermore on a deep stratum of common interest. We are the Powers of Western Europe primarily responsible for the settlement of 1919. We are, therefore, together very specifically interested in the modifications of that settlement which are now being made by the imperious bidding of time. We have stood close together and collaborated for many years, and for deep reasons of common interest we shall continue to stand together and collaborate in the future. I need not go far for instances. They are supplied by the London Declaration of last February and the Stresa Resolution of April, and we adhere to the principle of co-operation embodied in those Declarations.
        It is not the British way to sacrifice old friendships for the sake of new friendships. That is not to say that we do not seek new friendships, but we seek new friendships in such a way as not to endanger old friendships. It is well that al this should be remembered on both sides of the Channel. If our French friends should be tempted to think that we have recently gone further than they in practical realism, I hope that we may agree to forget any passing differences and to remember a touch of their own humour, when Candide, speaking of the execution of Admiral Byng, observed to Pangloss that the French must have been as far from the Admiral as the Admiral was from the French. We should both be wrong to question a friendship in which no wedges can be driven save by our own two selves.
        With Italy we have an old and valued tradition of amity. I have illustrated it in speaking of Abyssinia, and I will only return to it to say that we confirmed it two months ago at Stresa. I have no warmer or more sincere wish than that it should continue.
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        As regards Russia, I am glad that our relations, both political and commercial, with that Government are now better than they have ever been since the Government was established. Recent developments have brought the Soviet Republic into closer touch with European Powers through their entry into the League of Nations. Any State sincerely desirous of maintaining the peace of Europe, whatever may be its government, will have our collaboration in that aim.
        I have already spoken of our relations with Germany, and I need only repeat the keynote of the whole, that our attitude is one of practical and comprehending realism.
        Two important subjects still remain, our policy in the Far East and our relations with the United States of America. I feel sure that I need not underline the capital importance that we attach to friendly relations with Japan. We British feel that we have much in common with Japan. We see their great Empire, living under the inestimable blessing of an hereditary Monarchy, full of enterprise and deeply interested in naval questions. We are glad to think that though our respective trade and commerce often come into competition, and sometimes into rivalry, the two countries have never come into conflict. We are anxious to see the most friendly relations continue, but I should not be frank with our Japanese friends if I did not say that the friends of Japan in England have been disturbed and disquieted by certain recent events in North China. I trust that this chapter of anxiety is closing, and that our desire for the most friendly relations will be given unrestricted opportunity of fuller development.
        In regard to China, His Majesty's Government have lately given emphasis to the importance that they attach to Anglo-Chinese relations, first, by raising His Majesty's Legation to the status of an Embassy, and, second, by the decision to give our Ambassador accommodation nearer the seat of government where he can keep in closer contact with the Chinese authorities. The House will also remember that we are sending to China one of our most distinguished civil servants and economists, Sir Frederick Leith Ross, on an economic mission of investigation, the importance and scope of

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        which I have already described to the House. It is the belief of His Majesty's Government that steady progress towards order and stability in China can only be maintained, first, by the promotion of good relations between China and Japan and, second, by co-operation between those two countries and other countries with similar interests and aims. In a word, the maintenance of the principle of the Open Door, coupled with the full recognition of China's right to control her own destinies, remains the broad basis of English policy in China. If China is to regain her historic place in the world, she will need help from the West as well as from the East.
        There remains, finally, the chapter of our relations with the United States of America. Here I may be happily brief. They are excellent and, I doubt not, will remain excellent. On this side of the Atlantic there will never be a Government but will do its best to ensure this essential relation, essential to the world as well as to ourselves. All that we have in common has often been said. It has, however, sometimes been suggested that the United States have made offers to us and that we have refused them. There is no foundation for this criticism. We have refused no offers for no offers have been made to us. I need hardly add that if offers of co-operation are made to us they will always find a friendly welcome in Great Britain. In the meanwhile, let us foster our friendships and maintain in our intercourse a realist attitude towards each other.
        The truest friends of Anglo-American relations are those who do not make impossible demands on them. While attaching the fullest value to Anglo-American co-operation, we must expect no more of our American friends than they are able or willing to contribute. Let us never in international affairs make the mistake, so common in private life, of continually analysing contentment, until somehow it seems insufficient. Let us rather be thankful for all that we already have and intend to maintain. It is with this feeling of thankfulness that I think of our two great peoples, differing it may be in many small respects, but never, I believe, likely to differ on any big issues.
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        I have finished my survey, and I return once again to the appeal that I made at the beginning of my speech. I do not expect that there will not be criticism, and criticism over a wide field, of anything that the Government does or anything that the Government does not do, but all that I ask is that the criticism should be constructive, that the difficulties of the problems that I have brought to the attention of the Committee this afternoon should be realised, and that we should all of us, whatever may be our ultimate conclusion, attempt to approach them in a realist and practical manner. I ask for the maximum of attainable unity in this country on these matters of common, concern. After all, we are all agreed upon the broad principles of British policy. We all realise the great responsibilities of the British Empire. We have no intention of adopting a jealous or a selfish attitude against countries whose possessions are smaller or less various than our own.
        We intend to maintain the pledges that we have given in our treaties and in the Covenant, and we are ready to work with Europe upon a basis of collective security. We are determined to use our full influence for the reconciliation of old animosities, but we will use it in such a way as shall not alienate old friends in our desire to make new ones. The friendships of the British Empire are not exclusive. We gladly hold out our hand to any country in the West or in the East that will work with us for stability and security, for justice and fair dealing, for peace and good will. We are, I believe, agreed at home upon these principles of policy. Let us make a further and greater effort to carry them into effect abroad.
        4.44 p.m.
        Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: The Committee has listened with close attention to the comprehensive statement which has been made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on his first appearance before the Committee in that capacity. There will be uppermost in the minds of hon. Members in all quarters, first, a desire to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on personal grounds on his accession to that high, office, and, second, a feeling of sympathy with him in the magnitude of the problems with which he has immediately been called

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        upon to deal and the greatness of the responsibilities that rest upon him. It is a responsibility which the House of Commons, in some degree, must share itself, and the House has never been slow to respond to the appeal of any Foreign Secretary, whatever Government he may belong to, for that co-operation, the maximum obtainable unity, for which the right hon. Gentleman himself has pleaded in his concluding remarks. Our efforts in all matters of foreign affairs must be to help and not hinder His Majesty's Government. I hope that the Committee will approve the action taken by hon. Members on these benches in asking the Government to put down the Foreign Office Vote so that we may have a comprehensive discussion of these important questions.
        At the time when we asked for this Debate we desired, in particular, to inquire how matters stand with regard to an air pact and to direct renewed attention to the importance of this question. Since then two other issues have arisen which have occupied a great part of public attention in this and in other countries—namely, the Anglo-German Naval Agreement and the dispute between Italy and Abyssinia. While these two matters may be perhaps more urgently and prominently in the minds of hon. Members than the other, we desire that the question of an air pact should not be allowed to slip into the background. Therefore, let me begin by reminding the Committee of the course of recent events in that regard. It was discovered some months ago that Germany was increasing her air force with great rapidity and a feeling of alarm spread in this country. The Government declared that it was essential that we should with equal rapidity enlarge our own air force and laid proposals before Parliament to that end. At the same time, they declared that this increase could be stopped at any moment, and that if an agreement for limitation could be arrived at with Germany the vast expansion of our air force could be suspended. Whereupon the German Chancellor, in his famous speech of 21st May, gave a public pledge that Germany would be prepared to build no more aircraft than were necessary to give her equality with any Power in Western Europe.
        This matter was debated in the House of Commons on the 31st May, again on
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        a Motion from these benches. We most strongly pressed upon the Government that it was an absurd situation that we should be spending vast sums of money in order to treble our own air force to secure equality with Germany when Germany had publicly declared that she required no greater air force than any Power in the West. Consequently, as I said then, the yardstick was France. We urged that it was essential that every effort should be made at once to secure agreement for limitation. The present Home Secretary, who as then Foreign Secretary, replied in the Debate on 31st May, and he declared that he was in full agreement. He used these words:
        "Time is a tremendously important factor. … Every exertion is being put into this matter. … It is being pursued with very great energy, and without any loss of time."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st May, 1935; col. 1454, Vol. 302.]
        Six weeks have elapsed since then and in answer to a question yesterday the Minister for League of Nations Affairs told us that negotiations between the five Locarno Powers regarding an air pact have not even yet begun. Not merely have we made no progress, not merely have we failed to come to an exact agreement, but we have not even begun, six weeks after that Debate, to discuss the matter. Meanwhile, recruits are being enlisted in the air force in large numbers; there are placards in all towns calling for volunteers, for 2,500 additional airmen and 20,000 additional mechanics. Contracts are being made for new aeroplanes, land for new aerodromes is being purchased, and aerodromes laid out, and within a few days this House will be faced with an additional supplementary Estimate which we are told will amount to not less than £5,000,000. And all this when Germany, against whom we are building, has declared that she is willing to stop building at any moment provided she has an assurance that other Powers will do the same. The Foreign Secretary to-day has told us the reason why these negotiations for an air pact have not yet been begun. The reason is that certain Powers in Europe, he mentioned France in particular, hold that all these matters are inter-related, that you cannot touch the question of an air pact without touching a variety of questions, some of them dealing with armaments on land and sea and some dealing with political matters.

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        I venture to draw the special attention of the Committee to this. We have here a new issue emerging into European and world politics, the issue whether all questions relating to peace and armaments must be dealt with simultaneously or whether it is right to pick out a certain area and deal with that prior to what may be called a global arrangement. I strongly urge on the Government that the latter course is the right one; that we should not accept the view held in some continental countries that unless you can get everything done nothing should be done. We have had several years' experience of that procedure at the Disarmament Conference. The result has been absolutely nil. The principle which is now emerging is that any one Power is able to stop any agreement of any kind in any part of Europe. Each one is to have the right to say that unless I get satisfaction in this matter no one shall be satisfied in any matter. That is, essentially, what it comes to.
        Probably the worst constitution of any country at any time in history was the constitution of Poland in the 17th and 18th centuries, which allowed what was called the Liberum Veto to any individual member of the Polish Diet, which consisted of hundreds and I think thousands. This power, which was vested in any one individual member, of stopping the conclusion of any agreement and preventing the passage of any law, made that constitution absolutely unworkable and was the chief cause of the ultimate partition of Poland. We do not have to go as far away as Poland or to such a distant period as the 17th century. Here in this House everyday at 2.45 and every night at 11 o'clock we have the same procedure in operation. Any Member rising in his place and saying "I object," can stop the passage of any Private Bill or any Resolution. But there is here an alternative procedure; that is not the end of the matter, and another opportunity can be found for these questions to be discussed. In Poland that was not the case, and now, apparently, in Europe it is not to be the case. Any Power is, apparently, to be allowed to impose a liberum veto on the progress and solution of any of these matters.
        The Government, however, have broken through that rule by making the naval agreement with Germany, and the Com-
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        mittee to-day must express its views as to that agreement. I know that it has caused a great searching of hearts among the many friends of disarmament, particularly on the ground that this is a separate agreement made with Germany without the intervention of the League, without consultation with others, and obviously and clearly in direct conflict with the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, which still pro forma are valid in international law. Many also regret that this agreement should have been made without co-operation from France and Italy, and consider that it might be regarded as a breaking of the front established at Stressa. Indeed, I think most of us who consider that in the main the Government were right to make the Naval Agreement, that it was essential that Herr Hitler's offer should be taken at its face value, accepted and clinched at once—I hold that view myself—also consider that the matter was not perhaps very happily handled diplomatically, and that there was a certain lack of skill in the prior preparations and negotiations, which is to be greatly regretted. It would have been far better if an agreement of that sort had been in a provisional form, taking effect from the date of signature but awaiting ratification until there was a general settlement with regard to the disarmament clauses of the Treaty of Versailles.
        With regard to the technical aspects of the agreement, I do not propose to say anything, and this is not the occasion. No doubt they will be discussed on some day when the House or the Committee devotes its attention to Navy Estimates. But I express the view that the Government are to be commended for not having let the opportunity slip of securing, at, all events in this one point of the disarmament problem, some actual achievement. For some years everything has been attempted and nothing done, and at long last there is clearly and visibly in the sight of all the world an agreement between two great Powers, which puts a stop, in one province, upon a race in armaments which otherwise would have been unlimited. Herr Hitler made the offer that Germany would not built up to the level of more than 35 per cent. of the strength of the British Navy. As things are in Europe to-day that offer was made voluntarily. It was to be accepted or

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        rejected. If it was not accepted, it might well have been withdrawn, and if it were withdrawn, if the offer had not been accepted, the result would not have been that no German navy would have been built.
        Those who criticise the Agreement declare that we have sanctioned and contributed to the resurrection of the German navy. That is not the position at all. If the offer had been rejected, or allowed to drop, the German navy would have been built, but, instead of being formally, definitely and solemnly limited to a, distinct proportion of our own, it would have been constructed without any limitation at all, with the result not that the Treaty of Versailles would have been vindicated but merely that the infraction of the Treaty would have gone further than it has yet. We should realise that the disarmament clauses of the Treaty of Versailles are dead, and the fact that they have not been buried merely poisons the air of Europe. Their ghost cannot stop the re-arming of Germany, but they may still be potent to forbid any agreement to limit the re-arming of Germany. It seems an absurd position taken up by the opponents of this Agreement to say to Germany, "You must not build in defiance of the Treaty of Versailles, but if you do the proprieties forbid our accepting your own offer to limit the extent of your building." To say that is to say that whatever is illegal must therefore be unlimited. That is not statesmanship but diplomatic pedantry.
        We on these benches have not been slow to criticise the Government in very many Departments. We are not like the chamberlains in Voltaire's story to which the Foreign Secretary referred. We know those chamberlains very well—the two who say, "What the Prince is about to say is right," and the two who say, "What the Prince has just uttered is very right." Two of those chamberlains are of course National Liberals, and the other two are National Labour. For our own part, while we are ready to criticise and with emphasis whenever the occasion requires, we have no sympathy with those who, when some action is taken of which we may approve in general, seize the opportunity to say, "Not now and not thus," and express condemnation which is really undeserved.
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        With regard to the Naval Agreement, I do not think that the concern which is felt in France and in other countries on broader grounds of international politics is well founded. It has been said that this Agreement implies that public opinion in this House and in the country generally with regard to the regime in Germany has changed and that we feel less revulsion against the violence and intolerance practised there. I do not think that that is so. I think that this Agreement has been arrived at entirely independently of any considerations of that kind. Nor do I think it is true to say that it implies a going back of this country from France and a tendency to enter the orbit of Germany, or that we do not realise the menace to the peace of the world that may come from the militarism of Germany and the philosophy of racial predominance which is preached there. I think that public opinion in Britain realises that that is one of the great perils in front of the world. Nor do I think that this Agreement implies any lessening of our readiness to take part in any front against any possible aggression. We see as well as our friends in France the danger that may arise to Europe in that quarter and the further danger that may arise from the constant declarations of the German Chancellor of antagonism to Russia. It may be true that Germany is planning to have a policy which will give her security on the west in order that she may have a free hand in the east.
        I think that all of these things we realise quite clearly. But the divergence between British policy and French policy now—and has been for some years past—is a divergence as to the best way to handle the actual situation in Europe. The British thought some years ago that it was a profound mistake on the part of France to occupy the Ruhr and that that would not lead ultimately to the pacification of Europe. We have urged for years past that it was not a possible policy, and could never be a possible policy, to keep Germany permanently disarmed and surrounded by a ring of armed neighbours. We thought that it was a great mistake on the part of the Government of M. Doumergue and M. Barthou to reject categorically in April,

        531
        1934, the German offer that was then made for a limitation of armaments.
        Many of us are inclined to think that again a mistake will be made if the French insist that everything is to be attempted at once and no agreement made, with regard, for example, to an air pact, unless simultaneously all the other problems to which the Foreign Secretary referred are dealt with also—that we cannot get on with this limitation, that we cannot stop the threefold expansion of our Air Force, unless first the Danubian problem is dealt with, the Lithuanian problem is dealt with, and the pact of non-aggression in the East is dealt with.
        The other matter to which I would wish to refer, and the third of the great questions which are now exercising our minds, is that of the Italo-Abyssinian dispute, which fills us all with the gravest anxiety. It is not for us in this House to anticipate what may be the decisions of the League Council. The procedure for conciliation has not yet been exhausted. The conference representing the two parties which has been meeting has broken down, but there has been no clear and full statement of the reasons for the breakdown or of the rights and wrongs of these matters. The Italian grievances have not yet been definitely formulated and have not yet been examined by the League. All that is true, and in this discussion to-day I suggest, with respect, that it would be an error for any Member to assume that the matter has already been decided, that aggression has already been declared, and that it is the duty of this House to express its views on that situation.
        But what profoundly disturbs us all is the method that has been pursued by Italy. Italy was a signatory with all the other nations of the world, great and small, of the Pact of Paris, or the Kellogg Pact. That pact was in short and simple terms. Each signatory undertook to renounce war as an instrument of national policy. The question now arises whether Italy's present action in consistent with that solemn undertaking. Has she renounced war as an instrument of national policy? The whole world applauded the conclusion of that pact, which it was thought might raise civilisation to a higher level. If there is a direct repudia-
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        tion of both its spirit and letter, it cannot but cause us all the gravest apprehension. And no distinction can be drawn between war and violence as an instrument of national policy. It is difficult to say at what moment violence passes into war, but the dispatch of division after division of troops to the frontier of one of the parties to a dispute does not appear at first sight to be consistent with an undertaking to renounce war as an instrument of national policy.
        The world's concern is all the graver in consequence of the declarations on this question in general by Signor Mussolini, who is the sole authority directing the policy of Italy to-day, and I feel bound to quote these words from a speech by Signor Mussolini, made last year, which was not some casual and unconsidered declaration, but was an important speech officially communicated by the Italian Government to the Press of the world. In the course of that speech, he used these words:
        "It is, therefore, necessary to be prepared for war, not to-morrow, but to-day. We are becoming—and shall become so increasingly, because this is our desire—a military nation. A militaristic nation, I will add, since we are not afraid of words. To complete the picture, warlike—that is to say endowed ever to a higher degree with the virtues of obedience, sacrifice and dedication to country. This means that the whole life of the nation, political, economic and spiritual, must be systematically directed towards our military requirements."
        He went on to say later:
        "In spite of all conferences, all protocols and all the more or less highest and good intentions, the hard fact of war may be anticipated to accompany the human kind in the centuries to come just as it stands on record at the dawn of human history."
        That is a very significant and, I venture to suggest, sinister utterance, and, when we see the preparations that are now being made, we cannot dissociate them from declarations of that kind. Perhaps, however, we may see once again a wise restraint such as he has previously shown more than once when matters had apparently reached a highly critical position, and it is possible still that at the eleventh hour he may agree to some settlement on not unreasonable lines which will enable him to go to the Italian people as a statesman who has achieved peace with honour. It would be a mistake for this House to treat a crisis that is impending as though it had already occurred, to

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        forestall the League's decisions and, most of all, to use language which might be regarded as menacing. At the same time we ought not to leave Italy or any other Power in ignorance of what is the feeling permeating large bodies of opinion in this country—I believe the overwhelming body of opinion in this country—if any action is taken which cuts at the roots of collective security established by the League of Nations.
        We may be approaching at this hour one of the supreme issues of our time, when we have to ask if collective security has any meaning or not, and whether the Covenant of the League and the Pact of Paris are documents of serious binding importance or documents that may be ignored by any Power, great or small, whenever it thinks that it is to its interest to do so. It has been declared again and again by spokesmen of all parties that support of the League is the corner stone of British policy, and the League, if it exists for any purpose, exists to prevent deliberate aggression by one member against any other member. I regretted that the Foreign Secretary to-day struck a rather piano note in dealing with this subject. He did not exhibit any very resolute spirit to make sure that the functions of the League should be carried out in a courageous and effective fashion. This House in general—there may be some dissentients here and there—would be ready to support His Majesty's Government in any measures they may be willing to take within the League and in co-operation with the other League members to vindicate the principles on which the League is founded. Certain it is that whatever is ultimately done by the members of the League must be done publicly and at Geneva. Any action or refusal to take action cannot be a matter of private understanding or representations or assurances, but must be done in pursuance of the principles of the League, publicly in the presence of the whole world, and each Power will sooner or later have to state before the bar of the world's opinion where it stands, what it will do and what it will not do. I feel sure that I am expressing the opinion of every Member of the House, for it is a point that is quite obvious and not open to any disagreement, that we all most earnestly hope that an accommodation may still be reached, that this crisis
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        may be avoided, and that the efforts now being made by His Majesty's Government to that end may result in a successful conclusion.
        5.15 p.m.
        Mr. ATTLEE: I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
        This Debate has been rendered very important by the speech of the Foreign Secretary. We have had speeches from the previous Foreign Secretary in this House throughout the duration of this Parliament up till now, and in those speeches we have generally found a lot of lip service to the League of Nations. The new Foreign Secretary has asked us to be realists and his realism is such that it was not until a late stage in his speech that he even mentioned the subject at all. I really think the House is to be congratulated on having had such a realist speech from the right hon. Gentleman. For the last three and a-half years a kind of Jekyll and Hyde business has been going on but now we have Jekyll and Hyde separated and we have had Hyde this afternoon. Jekyll represents the idealist view of foreign affairs based on the League of Nations, and the kind of principles which we have been trying to establish in the world since the War. Hyde represents Imperialist realism and that is what we had from the Foreign Secretary this afternoon.
        I am moving to reduce this Vote as a protest against the fact that the whole speech of the right hon. Gentleman was utterly retrograde and an entire going back upon all the principles of the League. In fact he took us straight back to pre-war foreign policy. I am sorry not to be able to respond to his suggestion that we should all smile and look on happily. In the last four years we have seen the kind of world which we hoped to build up after the War tumble down in ruins and one of the principal architects of that ruin has been the late Foreign Secretary who is now Home Secretary. He has the unfortunate habit that when confronted with a difficulty he runs away from it and tries to dodge it in every way. We have seen him during all this time running away from any attempt to put into practice the principles of the League. If anyone suggested for a moment that he should stand fast for those principles, that person was at once condemned as a war wisher.

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        We must all be gratified to see that our present Foreign Secretary is at least doing justice to China. China did not ask for much. She only asked that the solemn pledges given under the Covenant of the League should be observed. Of course she has lost Manchuria and she has lost Jehel and she is rapidly losing other provinces, but we are giving her an Ambassador instead of a Minister. I am sure that that will be extraordinarily gratifying to China and to all those who believe in collective security. Next we have the question of Abyssinia. Abyssinia is a member of the League. I am not concerned with the question of whether Abyssinia as a State is or is not a very worthy member of the League. I see letters in the "Times" suggesting that Abyssinia is not a very respectable State, but there are a great many States in the League of whom it might be said that they are not very respectable when one comes to examine their interior organisation. Abyssinia at any rate was accepted as a member of the League. She appealed to the League as she had a right to do. She put herself entirely in the right. We offered her a strip of territory but nobody seems to have offered to stand by her on the principles of the Covenant of the League of Nations.
        You can, if you like, say that the Covenant of the League is all wrong, that we ought not to have any Covenant and that there ought not to be any pledges for collective security. What I object to is that we should remain nominally bound by all kinds of promises when there is no attempt by us or by anybody else to fulfil them. Let me make it plain, because this is a matter which is widely misrepresented in the country, that we have never suggested that this country should take unilateral action against an aggressor. We never suggested it in the case of Japan. We never suggested it in the case of Abyssinia.
        Mr. CHURCHILL: By "unilateral action" the right hon. Gentleman means solitary action.
        Mr. ATTLEE: We have never suggested that this country should take single action. What we have suggested is that this country should take such action as can be taken with the League and should take a position in the
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        League worthy of our position in the world. As a matter of fact, we have taken solitary action because on every occasion when these matters came up the late Foreign Secretary was always the first to show a clean pair of heels. He always set the example of running away and that is why we have such a melancholy position exhibited to us by the present Foreign Secretary in his tour round the world this afternoon. I listened with great interest yesterday to a speech by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) in which he drew a picture of what had been going on during the last four years. He began by describing the early days of this Parliament and he showed how this "young and vigorous" Parliament, I think he said—
        Mr. CHURCHILL: "Young and raw" Parliament.
        Mr. ATTLEE: I would not disagree with the right hon. Gentleman on a choice of epithets because that is a, subject in which he is a past master and I certainly accept his correction. The right hon. Gentleman on that occasion described the appalling effects on the foreign situation of this Parliament's record. The fact remains that the issue which we have to face to-day is: Is there any value at all in professions of devotion to the League; is there any value at all in the idea of collective security; is there any value at all in the words of Governments; is there any value at all in treaties; is there any value at all in Locarno to-day? We have had a remarkable statement from the Foreign Secretary. He said we were now seeing what, I think he described as the reformation of the Peace Treaties at the imperious bidding of Time. We have seen the tearing up of treaties at the imperious bidding of Japan and of Hitler and of Mussolini. What we have now got is this. We have a League, founded on certain principles, in which it was agreed that war should not be an instrument of policy; in which it was agreed that the integrity of each State should be the common interest of all and in which it was agreed that peace should be the common interest of all. And yet we find by experience that those who pursue Imperialist designs can "get away with it."
        The question which arises is, how long are we to carry on that farce? We are out to make the League of Nations a

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        reality. This Government have reduced it to a farce. What is the good of the right hon. Gentleman talking about collective security? What is meant by that phrase now? What would happen to any small State which was dependent on collective security? The right hon. Gentleman to-day has given his own answer. He has said that collective security is all very well but that you have to depend on your own strength and that before you can help anyone else you have to be prepared to defend yourself. That is all very well for the big State but how does it apply to the small State? Where then is your collective security?
        In fact what we see to-day is that under the cover of the League of Nations certain States pursue their Imperialist designs. I do not think that we ought to try to put ourselves on a kind of pillar of virtue in considering this matter. This country is a great Imperialist State and the right hon. Gentleman not very politely but very frankly recognised that we were a State rather like Japan. We have done things in the past rather like those which Japan has done in China or Italy in regard to Abyssinia. In those days of course people preached a frank Imperialism. If you are going to preach a frank Imperialism then by all means do so but do not practise Imperialism under the cloak of the League of Nations. The right hon. Gentleman clearly did not look at the Abyssinian question from the point of view of rights under the League at all, because the thing that was weighing with him apparently was that Italy had a right to expand. I do not suggest for a moment that the boundaries of all, the States in the world are sacrosanct. But how does that argument apply in connection with the League of Nations? How can Italy better her case by citing the fact that she has a large population and wants expansion? If I were found burgling it would not be taken as a, good excuse that I wanted a good deal of money and was rather short at the time. That indeed is a very common plea in such cases, but that is the kind of plea which is being put forward to-day.
        I want the Government to face the fact that masses of people in this country to-day believe in the League system
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        though they do not believe in a League system which is only Imperialism in disguise. To use nice phrases about collective security and the peace of the world and to connive at the actions of every Power that wants to use force is sheer hypocrisy. I respond readily to the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that we should be realists, and I hope that he will be realist enough to recognise that there are masses of people in this country who will not support that old Imperialist line of politics. I am not suggesting that this country is planning the annexation of this or that territory. We have made seizures of territory in the past but we do not adopt that policy so much nowadays. If, however, we acquiesce in the rule of the strong against the weak, we are just as guilty as the rest, and what has disturbed me during recent years is that in all these discussions about the position of Abyssinia and so forth what has appeared to concern us most has been, not so much what is right, as what will be the effect on something else in connection with foreign affairs. Can we afford to break with this Imperialist Power?
        The right hon. Gentleman said, quite rightly, that the alternative to a League system was a system of alliances, but have we not got back to alliances already? Are there not a whole lot of veiled alliances? The fact is that you have torn up entirely the Treaty of Versailles, and the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal faction below the Gangway was quite right when he said that. You have made an agreement with Germany with regard to the Navy. The right hon. Gentleman is very easily satisfied. He welcomed it as a great step towards disarmament—the re-armament of Germany as a great step towards disarmament! We say it is nothing but a steady progress towards re-armament and towards competition in armaments again. It is not my purpose to discuss the question of this Naval agreement to-day. We shall ask as soon as possible for a day on the Navy Estimates in order that the matter may be discussed in all its bearings. I do not think in the least that it is an agreement that is so welcome. The right hon. Gentleman welcomed it because, he said, if you had not got it, you might have got something much worse. That is not the point, however.

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        The point is that these things are done at the dictation of the Hitlers, the Mussolinis, and the rest of them, and it is because no attempt has been made to give a lead in Europe to stand up for the rule of law against the rule of force.
        I am not blaming the present Foreign Secretary, who has come into a, terrible inheritance. The late Foreign Secretary came in at a time when this country stood high in the world, but he surrendered every single position, and now we come back to this grave position, in which it is suggested that we shall have to acquiesce in another spoliation of a weak State by a strong State, and the only course suggested is that we should form more and more pacts. When I look at the map of Europe, I see it strewn with broken pacts. What is the use of suggesting that we shall get any safety from an Eastern pact, a Danubian pact, an air pact, a German pact, when the series of broken pacts almost impedes the Foreign Offices of Europe? He would be a bold man who would say whether the Locarno Pact was of any effect. I do not think ayone would suggest that the Nine Power Pact is of any effect—he would be a cynical man who would say so—or the Kellogg Pact.
        What has become of the Treaty of Versailles? How much remains of it, I do not know, but it looks as if a great experiment was failing. The experiment was that after the War people were really scared of war, and they came together to try to form a League of Nations. The question was: Was there enough common intelligence, enough common honesty, enough idea of what the future might bring forth to induce Imperialist Powers to come together and sink their Imperialist interests in the common interests of the world? It is proved that at present that is a failure, that the Imperialist Powers are following up their Imperialism, and that we are now faced with a world suffering under fear and lapsing into disorder. The right hon. Gentleman talked about people who make scare speeches and so forth. His speech scared me. It seemed to me to show no clear line of policy whatever on the part of the Government. When the right hon. Member the Minister for League of Nations Affairs speaks I can always see throughout his speeches that there is an ideal
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        to which he is working, but I can see nothing in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman but a temporising and a parleying with all the forces of disorder in the world.
        We think the Government, by their mishandling of foreign affairs, have brought the world back practically to the situation in 1913 and 1914, and judging from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman that the Government have nothing more in view than that, it is useless to think that they are going to lead us out of our present difficulties. I believe that if they would take the line taken by the masses of the people in this country, the line taken by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for League of Nations Affairs, and try to make the League a reality, give up power politics, try to act together with all the small and law-abiding States, and not run at the first shaking of the fist of every bandit State, they might save Europe and the world, but as it is I have lived to see to-day a most terrible example of drift, and drift, and drift that is leading on again to war.
        6.37 p.m.
        Mr. CHURCHILL: I have some comments to make upon the recent conduct of foreign affairs which, I cannot disguise at the outset, may be deemed to be of a critical character, but I must say that I do not find myself in any closer agreement with the speech which has just been delivered by the right hon. Gentleman who speaks for the Labour Opposition. It was a speech which certainly was entirely devoid of any kind of constructive suggestion. I do not say that private Members, or even Members who speak with great authority for organised parties, are called upon in every speech to make constructive suggestions, and it is a very easy thing for Governments to say, "Let us have your alternative plan." My experience leads me to believe that it is a very great risk for private persons to attempt to offer constructive plans. But still, the right hon. Gentleman, representing as he does a scheme of thought and putting his case so very high, ought, I think, to have given us a little more to build on than the statement that all pacts are useless, that Europe is cumbered with the litter of pacts, and, at the same time, that we ought to join with the small nations as

        541
        far as possible in endeavouring to secure that reign of law and that inauguration of permanent peace which his adherents desire and which is the common property of us all.
        I do not quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman, I must say, in his references to the late Foreign Secretary. I have criticised him, and I shall no doubt criticise his successor, but I certainly think it is very unfair to try to pile upon a single man the blame for all the awful transformation and degeneration which has occurred in European affairs and in world affairs during the last four or five years. Certainly I feel that the late Foreign Secretary devoted to his task talents which are not easily to be rivalled by any one in this House, and a sincere, profound desire for peace and for working for peace, in pursuance of which he has made sacrifices which have never been surpassed by any Member now sitting on the Front Opposition Bench, except perhaps the Leader of the Opposition himself. No; I hope that we shall not go about imagining that we are going to make our discussion of these matters any easier by simply trying to throw upon a single man the blame for events which all men have so far found themselves unable to contain or to control.
        I listened to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. I have seen a great deal of him this Session. I hope he will not mind my saying that, in spite of my differences with him on India, I rather wish he had remained to see that important matter through, but at any rate he may be quite sure that no friction engendered in those Debates will or should in the slightest degree prejudice any of those who may differ from him on the India matter. We all hope his tenure of the Foreign Office—indeed, we have no alternative but to hope, for what choice have we, considering that all our interests are in the matter and all our lives and fortunes are in the matter?—we all hope and pray that he will have good success. It was, therefore, with those sentiments that I listened to his speech, and I do not think anyone could find positive fault with that speech. It certainly was a survey of the world designed to deal with these different matters in such a way as to leave calmer and quieter feelings behind. If it did
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        not, as I agree, face the grave issues which exist, it certainly was designed to have a pacifying and soothing effect, and for the right hon. Gentleman who spoke for the Opposition to pretend that it was a sort of speech of a Mr. Hyde reverting to old, pre-war, jingo, Imperialistic policy, and as it were to class the right hon. Gentleman and the entirely well meaning, blameless, and peace-minded Government whom he represents with the kind of Imperialist dictatorships of Europe, is an absurdity which has only to be presented to win the universal condemnation which it deserves.
        My right hon. Friend began his speech by saying that he would leap into the deep end of the pool and not go to the shallow part where the platitudes and generalities exist. I do not blame him that, after a few vigorous strokes in the deeper end, he found himself swimming in the part which is more usually frequented, the safer part of the bathing pool. As I say, we must wish him well in his task, and to say that we welcome him arriving in his position is not, in my opinion, to cast an invidious reflection upon the man whom he has succeeded. I do not think that when Ministers leave great Departments it should be supposed that it means that they have failed or that they are thereby humiliated. It may well be that circumstances, which are constantly changing, do require that new agents should come and take a new view at particular moments, and I am sure that the House will not support ungenerous attempts to blame on an individual what after all is beyond the compass of any human being.
        I now must say that when we last discussed foreign affairs I thought there was very general agreement. We were agreed, or we seemed to be agreed, to what had been done at Stresa, the declaration of comradeship between the three great Powers that met at Stresa. We were agreed, I think, in supporting the action of the Government in joining in the resolution of the League of Nations condemning treaty breaking by Germany in the matter of armaments. We were agreed to work in combination through the League of Nations for those principles of collective security—real collective security—which mean that the contributions to that security shall be

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        adequate to give a sense of relief and assurance to all. I thought we were all agreed on that. I found myself in closer relation to His Majesty's Government on foreign affairs than I had been in the whole of this Parliament. Curiously enough it seemed to me that the last act of the late Prime Minister—who is now Lord President—in foreign affairs, in making his comments on the Stresa negotiations, made him more truly the mouthpiece of British feeling and British interest than ever before. We have now heard a speech from the Foreign Secretary which, I say, in no way conflicts with those general principles which were established when we last discussed foreign affairs.
        Meanwhile, however, a number of things have happened which do conflict most markedly with those general principles, which the right hon. Gentleman has recited to us to-day. The scene is gravely changed. We have condoned, and even praised, the German treaty breaking in fleet building. I see that Lord Beatty, speaking somewhere else, said that we ought to be grateful to Germany for not having demanded 50 per cent. On that basis we ought to be more grateful that they did not demand 100 per cent. We have condoned this unilateral violation of the Treaty, and we have become a party to it without agreement with any of the other contries concerned. We have, however unintentionally, nullified and stultified the League of Nations' condemnation of treaty breaking in respect of armaments, in which we were ourselves concerned, in which, indeed, we took a leading part. We have, it seems to me, revealed, again quite unintentionally, a very considerable measure of indifference to the interests of other Powers, particularly Powers in the Baltic, who were encouraged by our example to join with us in the League of Nations in condemning treaty breaking. Our defence has been made by the right hon. Gentleman, and it is, I gather, that we have taken this step and made this naval agreement, as he said, for our own advantage and security. Of course, he contends, and rightly contends, that it is in many respects not necessarily contrary to the advantage and security of others. But, at any rate, it is an entirely separate action. I must say a word later about
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        this naval agreement and the alleged advantages which we are supposed to have derived from it. For the moment, I only refer to them to bring to the notice of the Committee that we have in this matter, in the name of what is called practical realism, seemed to depart from the principle of collective security in a very notable fashion.
        We have seemed to depart from—although I hope we may return again to—the comradeship agreed upon at Stresa and from the League of Nations resolution against Treaty-breaking, and we have done it in order to make a side deal with Germany which we thought to be in our interests, and not contrary to other interests in Europe. We cannot have done this without affecting prejudicially—although, again, I hope only for the time being—the confidence which exists between us and France, which is so vitally necessary for us at all times, but never more vitally necessary for us than during these years upon which we are now entering, when our air defence will be so woefully inferior to that of Germany. It is not a very good tale which I have had to tell of what has happened since we last had a full dress debate on foreign affairs. But it is only one part of the story. At the same time that we have been diverging from the League of Nations in one direction for our particular and legitimate national interest, real or supposed, Italy has made it plain that she means to invade and conquer Abyssinia. I hope that the optimism of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party may be borne out.
        Sir H. SAMUEL: I was not optimistic at all.
        Mr. CHURCHILL: Shall I say, then that I hope that in the tenacious grasping of the last straws of hope exhibited by my right hon. Friend he will be right and correct. As he said, however, what is reported every day about the movement of troops and the declarations of the head of the Italian State leaves us very little room to doubt that, as soon as the season of the year is suitable, the only hope of Abyssinians retaining their territory and the lands on which they have lived for so many thousands of years will be in the fighting qualities of their men. I greatly deplore that. Here is this threat to the League on the one hand,

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        and it has happened at the very moment when 11,000,000 people in this island have testified their own fidelity to and conviction for the League. In this short space of time we have made a separate arrangement for ourselves of a perfectly innocent character, but still separate, and at the same time the League is confronted with this grave embarrassment through the ambitions of Italy in Abyssinia. In the course we have taken we have placed ourselves in a position where it makes it very difficult for us to remonstrate too strongly with Italy without being exposed to a somewhat severe reply that when we think our special and particular interests are involved we show but little consideration for the decision against treaty- breaking to which we have just urged the League of Nations to come. I thought it right to place before the Committee these two aspects of what has happened since we last discussed the matter.
        There is, however, a third aspect. Simultaneously with all I have recited, we have nevertheless seemed to allow—I say "seemed to allow" because I do not attribute it to the policy of the Government at all—the impression to be created that we were ourselves coming forward as a sort of bell-wether or fugleman to gather and lead opinion in Europe against Italy's Abyssinian designs. It was even suggested that we would act individually and independently. I am glad to hear from my right hon. Friend that there is no foundation for that. We must do our duty, but we must do it with other nations only in accordance with the obligations which others recognise as well. We are not strong enough—I say it advisedly—to be the law-giver and the spokesman of the world. We will do our part, but we cannot be asked, and we ought not to put ourselves in a position of being supposed, to do more than our part in these matters. I rejoice, indeed, that my right hon. Friend corrected that, but still the fact remains that throughout Italy we have been regarded with great resentment which has been fed by altogether false and absurd rumours which my right hon. Friend has rightly characterised and exposed to-day.
        As we stand to-day there is no doubt that a cloud has come over the old friendship between Great Britain and Italy, a cloud which, it seems to me, may very easily not pass away, although un-
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        doubtedly it is everyone's desire that it should. It is an old friendship, and we must not forget, what is a little known fact, that at the time Italy entered into the Triple Alliance in the last century she stipulated particularly that in no circumstances would the obligations under the Alliance bring her into armed conflict with Great Britain.
        Viscountess ASTOR: It was a free Italy.
        Mr. CHURCHILL: It would complicate matters very much if we attempted to run a discussion on the internal policies of Italy, Germany or Russia at the same time as we are dealing with the general relationship of peoples and nations. Lastly, not only have we as it seems got into the position in which we are thought to be working against Italy, but we have made this proposal of handing over a portion of British protected territory in the hope of procuring a relinquishment of Italian ambitions. I cannot help saying—and it is only expressing what everyone feels up to the present—that no explanation has been offered by the Foreign Secretary in his excellent speech of the very unfortunate methods by which this project was put forward. The policy of ceding British protected territory and British protected subjects in order to get round some diplomatic difficulty, or in order to assuage the disputes of foreign countries, or even to pay our own way from year to year in the modern world, is a very dangerous one for this country to open. When we are considering our vast innumerable possessions and the reduced state of our means of defence, and at the same time the obvious hunger which is exhibited in so many quarters on the continent of Europe, it seems to me that any steps that might tend to direct appetites upon ourselves should be viewed with the utmost caution and scrutinised with the greatest strictness by Parliament.
        Still, I say, supposing that, in these years so critical for the peace of Europe, my right hon. Friend the Minister for League of Nations Affairs had returned from Italy with an agreement that she would abandon her anxious and alarming venture, I believe that the gain would have outweighed the loss; but what I do not see, and what I hope we shall be told by my right hon. Friend, is how it ever came to be supposed that this

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        particular proposal would have attracted the Italian Government. Why should Signor Mussolini want to prolong the standstill on the borders of Abyssinia while Abyssinia enjoyed a corridor to the sea through which a transit of arms could take place year after year? However you look at it, it was a forlorn hope. It was an honest, well-meaning proposal, but it was a forlorn hope. We have been told that it was an informal, tentative suggestion, and so forth. Why could not that have been put through the ordinary diplomatic channels
        There was a letter from Lord Hardinge in the "Times" the other day advising the use of the trained diplomatists much more than they are used at the present time in matters of prime importance. I do not say that there are not occasions when Ministers should go, and the League of Nations is meant to be a place where foreign ministers meet, but I do say the occasions when Ministers go must be most carefuly selected, and they should really only go, in most cases, when they are pretty sure that the result will be to put the seal on an understanding already arrived at by the diplomatists. The matter could have been dealt with in this case by the Ambassador having a private talk, asking whether this kind of offer would be any use, putting it forward as it would be only as a gesture of sincere friendship and desire to help. If he had put it forward in that way behind the scenes, which could so easily have been done, I do not think the Government would have got into the embarrassment in which they are at the present time. I must say one word to my right hon. Friend the Minister for League of Nations Affairs. Some two years ago I ventured to recite to him those words of Dr. Johnson:
        "Ye who listen to the whispers of credulity and follow with eagerness the phantoms of hope, who expect that age will perform the promises of youth and that the deficiencies of the present will be made good by the future, attend to the history of Rasselas, Prince of Abyssinia."
        I am afraid my right hon. Friend has been taking my counsel too literally. Everyone had the greatest hopes of his career, and the whole House, irrespective of party, welcomes the appearance of this new figure, but we hope he will choose his occasions with a little stricter discrimination, and make quite sure before
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        he undertakes these different journeys that he will not be asked to run risks which injure himself, and are not sufficiently slight to justify the hope of a satisfactory result.
        To recapitulate. During the last six weeks the League of Nations has undoubtedly been weakened by our action, the principle of collective security has undoubtedly been impaired, German treaty-breaking has been condoned and even extolled, the Stresa Front has been shaken if not, indeed, dissolved. Although I cannot believe that any nation in contact with the British Government can doubt our sincere desire for peace, British influence undoubtedly has to some extent been dissipated, and our moral position, or at any rate our logical position, has been to some extent obscured. You could not have had a more complete and perfect catalogue of how not to do it than has been presented by the events which have taken place since we last discussed foreign affairs. Frankly, I cannot understand how it was done. Nothing that has been said shows us how or why it was done. It seems to me as if there were four or five different policies at work inside the Cabinet, and that now one and now the other gain the ascendency according as the incidents of the hour or the events of the day bring these or those considerations to our attention.
        That brings me to the new plan of having two equal Foreign Secretaries. I was very glad indeed that the Prime Minister said yesterday this was only a temporary experiment. I cannot feel that it will last long or ever be renewed. At any rate, it is in the nature of poetic justice that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary should, on leaving the India Office, have a personal experience of dyarchy in its most direct and homely connection. What we want in foreign affairs is not, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister suggested, a team, however loyal—and it certainly will be loyal—and however well disciplined it may be. What we need, first of all, is a plain, simple policy, which can be declared in Parliament and to the nation and can be generally approved by them. And then we need that this policy should be adhered to through all the chops and changes of the situation. Secondly, we need the integral thought of a single man responsible for the conduct of foreign affairs,

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        ranging over the entire field and making every factor and every incident contribute to the general purpose upon which Parliament has agreed.
        The Foreign Secretary, whoever he is, whichever he is, must be supreme in his Department, and everyone in that great office ought to look to him, and to him alone. I remember that we had a discussion in the War about unity of command, and that my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said: "It is not a question of one general being better than another, but of one general being better than two." There is no reason at all why a strong Cabinet Committee should not sit with the Foreign Secretary every day in these difficult times, or why the Prime Minister should not see him or his officials at any time, but when the topic is so complicated and vast, when it is in such continued flux, it seems to me that confusion will only be made worse confounded by dual allegiances and equal dual responsibilities.
        I now propose to say a few words on the Naval Agreement. I am not going into any detail in this matter, because we Are to have a special Debate, but the Foreign Secretary opened his speech with it and dwelt upon the advantages which it confers upon us. I think that those advantages are very dubious. Of course it is quite wrong to pretend that the 'apparition of Germany as a formidable naval power, equipped with submarines and all the other apparatus of war, is the result of the Naval Agreement. That would have happened anyhow. The deep purposes of great nations are not, I am afraid, governed by the ebb and flow of political discussions or by temporary agreements which are made. It has for some time been evident that Germany, intends to embark upon a great process, a gigantic process, of re-arming by land, sea and air, which will make her the most formidable military power in the whole world. I am not blaming upon this Agreement these events and misfortunes which will follow from it, but when my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister says, as he did the other day, that he hoped this would be a great measure of disarmament, let me tell him that I am afraid it is not. I venture to hazard the prediction that it inaugurates the arrival of Germany—not the Naval Agreement in particular—as a great naval power, and
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        that this will inaugurate an outburst of shipbuilding in almost every country in the world the like of which has never been seen.
        Let us suppose that some great, distinguished and powerful person, who has played a great part in life, dies and his posts, offices, appointments and possessions are distributed, and then he suddenly comes back from the dead. A great deal of inconvenience would be caused. That is what has happened in the resuscitation of German naval power. The equilibrium—such equilibrium as we have been able to establish—in naval matters is entirely ruptured and deranged, and we shall find in every country, in the present temper of the world, that great new constructions, replacing old ships or increasing the total tonnage, will be begun without the slightest delay. And let me say that if the first German programme, which has already been announced, and which is really last year's programme, the programme of 1934, is followed by similar programmes in the next few years, the German 35 per cent. limit will have been laid down, if not completed, by 1938 or 1939, and in the same period, if we are not to endanger our naval security, it will be necessary for us to rebuild and lay down in new construction practically half the tonnage of our existing fleet. I cannot feel that this is at all a, matter for rejoicing—this German Naval Agreement. I remain still under this impression, that the one great fear of Europe is the power and might of the re-armed strength of Germany, and that the one great hope is the gathering together of Powers who are conscious of that fear, but have no aggressive intentions of any kind, in a system of collective security under the League of Nations in order that this tremendous process of the re-armament, of Germany may not be attended by some lamentable breakdown of peace.
        6.11 p.m.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I should like to congratulate the new Foreign Secretary upon giving us a very lucid and interesting survey of the situation. It was cautious. In some respects I think over-cautious. It did not quite carry out his promise of telling us clearly and fearlessly what were the actual difficulties in respect of some of the matters now perplexing the world. With regard to

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        Abyssinia, I agree with my right hon. Friend that this country cannot intervene alone. She is under no obligation to do so. She is under an obligation to enter with other countries into a combined effort to prevent this danger. I was disappointed with what was said by the Foreign Secretary, not so much because he deprecated anything in the nature of isolated intervention but that he rather disclaimed approaches to our friends in Europe with a view to carrying out our obligations under the Covenant of the League. They are not merely our obligations under the Covenant of the League. They are our obligations under a much more recent document, the Geneva Resolution of April, which made it quite clear that the Powers would apply economic and financial sanctions in future whenever any Power infringed a Treaty. That may or may not have been directed against Germany, but you cannot have one rule for Germany and another for Italy; in fact, that would vitiate the whole principle of the League. It would not only do that but put us in a thoroughly false position. We did not go there merely to attack Germany. We went there to lay down general principles of general application.
        The first case in which they are applicable is Abyssinia, and although I know that we cannot intervene alone, and nobody could expect us to do so, still I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not carry too far his rather emphatic disclaimer of any intention to approach our friends and allies in Europe and elsewhere with a view to seeing whether some effective intervention short of war is not possible in a case of this kind.
        Earl WINTERTON: What is that?
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am quoting the Geneva Resolution, which refers to financial and economic sanctions. I am using the very words of the Government.
        Earl WINTERTON: It means war.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The actual words that were used there were:
        "and in particular in the economic and financial measures which might be applied should, in future, a State, whether a member of the League of Nations of not, endanger peace by the unilateral repudiation of its international obligations."
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        Those are the words which were drafted by the late Foreign Secretary at Geneva, and I am simply using the exact words which are part of that document. That is not a document which mentions Germany but any State, who, in the future, unilaterally breaks a treaty. It is contemplated by that Resolution, passed three months ago, that those economic sanctions shall be applied. I can only put it to the Foreign Secretary that I think he rendered an unconscious disservice to his cause when he assured Signor Mussolini beforehand that he was taking no steps even to approach our friends with a view to seeing whether—[Interruption.] I shall be very glad if that is not what he intended. It is essential that it should be made clear that we are not ruling out the possibility of our own Resolution carried three months ago, apart altogether from the Covenant of the League, and that it has not been left out; that the Foreign Secretary has not in the least ruled out the possibility of approaching our friends.
        Sir S. HOARE: I used some rather well chosen words on the subject. I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that they are quite clear when he looks at them to-morrow. I prefer not to add anything more at the present time.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: As long as they are not misinterpreted. [Laughter.] Really, this is not a laughing matter. I have had charge of great affairs in this country, and I know what these things mean. It is vital that it should not be thought by Italy that under no circumstances will we seek co-operation with a view to carrying out our own Resolution and the Resolution to which Signor Mussolini was a party in April this year. If he is under that impression, believe me, war—I am not sure that it is not inevitable—but I am certain that the very last chance of averting it has gone. I wanted to say that, because it is essential at this very critical moment, when it is very desirable that a war should be averted of which no one can tell the end. Attacking a country of that kind is a much more serious business, even for the best organised armies, than they possibly contemplate. Abyssinia has a huge population—I forget what it is exactly—I think about 10,000,000 of very gallant people, and the mere fact that it is disorganised, and that you can-

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        not find one army that you can crush and then get the whole of the country into your hands, makes it a very serious business for Italy. I do not believe that you can possibly contemplate, in her present position, what will happen to a great friend of ours, Italy, an old friend of ours, one for whom we have the very warmest feeling. Although the Italians may not think so at the present moment, a good deal of our feeling in favour of averting war arises very largely from a genuine apprehension of what the economic effect may be upon Italy herself.
        With regard to Zeila, I certainly say that if you could have averted this trouble by a grant of territory of that kind, I should be one of those who would have congratulated the two right hon. Gentlemen. It would have been worth while. We have gigantic territory. We have far more really than we can manage; I am certain far more than we can develop. The only thing I was very doubtful about and could never understand was why we should imagine that a grant of this territory to Abyssinia would have averted Italy from attacking. I do not know enough about it. There may have been special reasons. We did exactly the same thing in the War. In 1915, in the treaty with Italy which brought Italy into the War, there was a clause by which we, France and ourselves, undertook to give compensation out of our own territories to Italy if it were found that Italy herself could not get the necessary compensation from Turkey or from Germany. We carried out our part of the bargain. It was actually done in 1925, I think. I am quite willing to take my share of the responsibility, because it was an offer that was made in 1919, although it was only carried out in 1925. That was Jubaland. That was simply carrying out an undertaking that we gave. I am not sure that the French had ever done it, but they have been talking about it recently.
        With regard to the general position, I am afraid that the Foreign Secretary has far too optimistic a view of the situation. He deprecated alarm, but that ought not to justify us ignoring the actual facts of the case. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) has already reviewed the situation, and I agree in the main with
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        his comments on the actualities of the situation. There is no doubt that during the last two or three years the international situation is worse, and very much worse, than it has been probably since the War. When there were difficulties in the times of my right hon. Friend as Foreign Secretary, there were not such armed forces in Europe confronting each other as would have precipitated at any time, as were likely to precipitate at that moment, a, war. What has happened in Germany recently has revolutionised the whole situation in Europe, completely. I would ask the Committee to bear with me while I am pointing out where I think the situation is very seriously aggravated.
        The League of Nations has been flouted time and again, and successfully flouted. I was very struck by what was said by the Foreign Secretary about Japan and Germany, very friendly and quite rightly; but there was not a single reference to the fact that those countries and Italy had flouted the League of Nations; Japan, a unanimous vote of the League; Germany, an almost unanimous vote of the League; Italy, I believe, also. Not a word said about that, although that is not a fact that you can ignore. Do not let us be under any misapprehension. If the League fails to settle the Abyssinian question, the very last vestige of its authority has gone. Up to two or three years ago we were discussing the question of cutting down arms and getting rid of great defensive weapons; that has gone, everywhere. Two or three years ago we were discussing not merely the abolition of bombing from the air, but the entire system of naval and military aircraft. We are now considering whether we cannot build against each other until neither one nor the other can get an advantage, and whether there is a possibility that you can sooner or later stabilise at a very high figure. With navies it is just the same. It was then a question of cutting down; it is now a, question of building new navies. The whole of the discussion on disarmament has been scrapped, and there is a universal re-armament going on throughout all nations without exception, including ourselves. Everywhere, in every direction, land, sea, and air. That is the change that has taken place in the last three years, and it is no use failing to call attention to it as though it were nothing to be alarmed at. We are bound to look at the facts of the situation.

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        You may have a dispute as to who is responsible. Nobody can challenge the fact that the Government cannot absolve themselves of a certain measure of responsibility. I had anticipated this afternoon the discussion on the matter of the submarines and the naval situation, but I understand that a separate day has been allocated for that purpose. I have seen the First Lord of the Admiralty and he agrees that it will be far better to discuss the matter of submarines when that occasion arises. In that case I shall not enter into the details of the subject, although I have my documents. I hope to be present when that discussion takes place, and to present my case before the House. There is the fact of an agreement between us and Germany, which first of all ratifies shipbuilding which was undertaken in defiance of the Treaty, and which sanctions, in addition to that, an increase which goes up, I think, to 35 per cent. of our own forces in new ships, and 45 per cent. of submarines. If she wants more she can come back and talk it over, up to 100 per cent. That is a new factor.
        Take aircraft. In 1931, I think it was, President Hoover proposed the abolition of aircraft. I believe that all the Powers agreed, including ourselves, but we introduced an exception in favour of police bombing, which meant that you could use it against everybody except the white races. Every country objected to that, and quite rightly, because, the moment you had your bombers for any purpose, you could use them for every purpose. There is no such thing as a special machine to bomb yellow races or black races which could not be used against the white races, and, if an exception had been made in favour of the British Empire for bombers at all, the result would have been that we should have had bombers and no other country would have had any. They were not so foolish as to agree to that. I believe that afterwards that exception was withdrawn, but it was too late.
        I have here the actual document of the League of Nations which gives the proposals that were put forward by Britain, Germany and France. It is dated May, 1933. There was our proposal to abolish subject to police purposes, and there was no nation that did
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        not propose cutting that out. Germany not merely proposed cutting it out, but had a second provision—that within two years military and naval aircraft should be abolished altogether. France was anxious to internationalise the Air Force. At that moment you could have had an agreement that would have removed that menace away from the civilian population of this country. Afterwards, I am told, we withdrew it, but Germany had left the League. The whole story is a story of missed opportunities. When the chances have come, we would not take them; when they had passed away, we said, "Here we are, we will take them now." That is not the way in which you can settle a great question of this kind. When nations are willing, when nations are ready, that is the time when we ought to seize the opportunity.
        The same applies to what happened with regard to what is known as the MacDonald Disarmament Scheme. The Lord President of the Council will forgive my describing it by his name. That was on 16th March, 1933. He proposed the destruction of all big guns and tanks, that is to say, all offensive weapons—weapons which are only used for attack, not for defence. Man-power was to be reduced; there was to be no increase in naval armaments; there were to be conferences for further reduction; and, most important of all, equality was to be accorded to Germany upon that basis. The only exception was that equality was not to be accorded to her in aircraft or submarines. The Germans protested, but, on the 19th May, the German representative at Geneva announced that, in spite of that exception, Germany was prepared to accept the British draft convention, not merely as a basis for discussion, but as a basis for the ultimate convention itself. Why was it not done? It is very significant of the kind of opportunities that have been missed. It would not have achieved everything, but at the time I was one of those who acclaimed and supported it, because I thought it would have achieved very considerable results and it would have been a very substantial contribution to the efforts for disarmament.
        What happened? By 16th October there was a complete change of front. The MacDonald draft had practically been abandoned in substance. It was not

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        to apply to the armed Powers for four years. A period of probation was introduced for Germany. During that period all those provisions which were in the right hon. Gentleman's draft proposals were not to apply at all to the countries that had these great armaments. Germany was to be watched during that time, and if at the end of the four years she behaved, then those provisions would begin to come into operation. That was a repetition of the Versailles process, where Germany had been let down once before. Germany treated it as an intolerable discrimination, left the Disarmament Conference, and resigned from the League of Nations. If we had stood by our own proposals, the proposals which Germany was prepared to accept, instead of going back upon them, the trouble of the last few years would never have occurred. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I venture to say that some of the young gentlemen opposite will live long enough to realise that what I am saying now is historically true. It has created the power of Nazi-ism in Germany; it has established its prestige. We have failed to carry out our promises under the Versailles Treaty.
        Will the Committee permit me to say one word about that Treaty? I have never said one word in palliation of it. Will the Committee permit me, as almost the last survivor of the framers of that Treaty, to say one word? Like every other human production, it was full of defects. It was written under conditions of unexampled exasperation. Wanton war had been provoked; France, particularly, bad been devastated in her greatest provinces; millions had been killed, and tens of millions mutilated. We were there under the influence—the irritating influence—of the sword; and, considering the conditions, I think it is wonderful that we were able to get in some of the things that are there at all. The best, we could do was to make provision inside the Treaty for future revision. If we had attempted it then, it would have been folly, and there is no party in this House that can point a finger at the framers. I came back here and put the Treaty before a crowded House of Commons. There was not a party that raised a voice against it—in the House. There was no Division. The only protest that I had was from 203 Conservative Members who sent me a
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        telegram to suggest that it was not harsh enough. I will give the names of two or three. One was Sir Samuel Hoare. Another was Mr. Edward Wood, now Lord Halifax; and a third was Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister. Since then they have mellowed a good deal. So have I. But I will say this for the Foreign Secretary, that, when the Treaty came back, he was the first man to get up in the House and say, "My view is that the terms are very good." That was the view at that time. What is my complaint? My complaint is that the harsh conditions of the Treaty have been enforced, while the more equitable, perhaps the fairer conditions, the more beneficent provisions, like the Covenant of the League and the International Labour Office, were thwarted, delayed, procrastinated, and very often trampled upon.
        Germany disarmed, practically, by 1926. I could give the House a schedule which I have in my possession of the enormous amount of material destroyed. Mills and factories and machinery were scrapped. So far had it proceeded that the Council of Ambassadors decided to withdraw the Inter-Allied Control. It had practically been completed by 1926. There was the promise of M. Clemenceau on behalf of the whole of us that, if Germany disarmed, the others would follow the example to the very minimum of practical security. What has happened? Armaments have grown and extended year by year, in spite of Locarno, in spite of the Kellogg Pact. My right hon. Friend did his very best to produce an atmosphere of peace and good will, and it is inserted in the Locarno Pact that all this was done with a view to discussions on disarmament.
        Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: There was a phrase of that kind in it.
        Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: There was a letter written by us to the German representatives which did refer to our hopes in regard to the process of disarmament. That is quite true. But it was not in the Pact, and it was not in the terms to which the right hon. Gentleman is referring. It is rather important.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It was in a collateral letter. The same thing applies to M. Clemenceau's letter. It was the letter that accompanied it. It gave the

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        authority, and I think that in any court of law it would be interpreted as part of the agreement.
        Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I am quite certain that it would, but it did not say what the right hon. Gentleman just began by saying was in it—that all this was done for the purposes of disarmament. It never said anything of the kind.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: This shows the anxiety not to deal with the broad facts, but with a mere quibble. I accept completely what my right hon. Friend says; he knows the whole thing very much better than I do; but his idea was that it would lead to disarmament, and that is the point that I am making. It did not. The Kellogg Pact did not. Since 1925, armaments have gone up from 2700,000,000 a year throughout the world to 21,000,000,000, and this year to £1,100,000,000, and the commitments will run up, probably, to £1,200,000,000 or £1,300,000,000. That is what is happening. That is why the situation is so very much worse than it was. Just see what has happened. My right hon. Friend referred to the Stresa Conference. Honestly it was a fatuous piece of bluster. See exactly what happened and why it was summoned. We first of all issued a White Paper to say we were going to increase our Air Force because of Germany. France then said she was going to increase her forces. Herr Hitler had issued a most momentous announcement. He said he was going to establish a conscript army. He meant to levy 550,000 men. I do not think the House has completely realised what the full implication of that is. It is not 550,000 men with equipment, but 550,000 conscripts per annum. They pass on to the reserve.
        We have been, for the purposes of the Allies, suppressing all this information about reserves. We have been talking as if the only thing that mattered was the peace army. We say France has only 400,000, Germany 200,000 or 300,000, Czechoslovakia 50,000—all a sham. The army that matters in the event of war is the reserves that are available to be called up and the question whether there is equipment against them. The right hon. Gentleman knows that the reserves of France are over 4,000,000. That was concealed, and because it was concealed we are not now going to be told the
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        truth about Germany. It is far better that the whole truth should be told. It means 550,000 men trained and passing into the reserve and then another 550,000. In a very short time you will have a military force in Germany which will be the greatest in the world. France and Russia will sink to the position of second and third place. Which conies second and which comes third I do not know, but I know which will be the first. You have a formidable air force also announced for the first time. When this was announced France, Italy and Britain felt that the time had come to take counsel together, and quite rightly. They knew what it meant. So they met at Stresa. What did they do there? Defiance of treaties—a gigantic defiance. You could not plead de minimis non—that it was merely a trifle. It was something that revolutionised the whole position in Europe. They met at Stresa and, after a very long recitation, you come to the final declaration:
        "The three Powers, the object of whose policy is the collective maintenance of peace within the framework of the League of Nations"—
        Mussolini signed that—
        "find themselves in complete agreement in opposing by all practical means any unilateral repudiation of treaties which may endanger the peace of the world, and will act in close and cordial collaboration for this purpose."
        What did that mean? Unilateral repudiation of treaties. Was there ever such repudiation of a treaty as Herr Hitler's gigantic army and great air force? "Endanger the peace of Europe." Does anyone doubt that? They will "act in close and cordial collaboration for this purpose." Where is the action? Where is the close and cordial collaboration? Is it the Naval Agreement, or is it Abyssinia? But they were within the League of Nations and, therefore, they must go to Geneva to regularise it. They were, after all, only three Powers. They had the greatest respect for the covenant of the League. Here is the text of the resolution:
        "The Council, considering that scrupulous respect for all treaty obligations is a fundamental principle of international life and an essential condition for the maintenance of peace"—
        They refer to the first resolution moved by a representative of the country whose most distinguished national leader had

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        promised disarmament if Germany disarmed, and seconded by the representatives of another Power which had now defied two treaties, the 1906 treaty and the 1919 treaty, by making war on a member of the League:
        "That it is an essential principle of the law of nations that no Power can liberate itself from the engagements of a treaty nor modify the stipulations thereof unless with the consent of the other contracting parties."
        The "Times" says that the most forcible speech delivered in support of the resolution was that of the representative of the Government that negotiated the Brest-Litovsk Treaty—a Treaty which left in the lurch a country that had come to the rescue of Russia in the hour of her trouble. What smug hypocrisy those two resolutions were. They did not mean it. It is only three months since then. Hitler's answer was: "I will give you another breach of a treaty. I am building submarines." Where was the action? Where was the collaboration? Where were the sanctions? Mussollini went away to Abyssinia to do a little bit of treaty-breaking on his own. The French Government slipped over the franc and was no more. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary who negotiated that are no more. The new Prime Minister and the new Foreign Secretary have extended a cordial invitation to the treaty breaker that you were going to act against to come over and discuss a few more breaches.
        The whole machinery of the League has been discredited. Japan defies the League. The League says, "You must not do that," and Japan takes no notice of it at all. We call Japan our friend. We wish her well. She is frogmarching China from one province to another. As a British merchant in China said to me the other day, she is pushing us out of our trade there. She has defied the League quite successfully. Even Paraguay and Bolivia did not listen to the League. They fought themselves to a standstill. They could not do any more, so they listened to Argentina. They did not listen to the League even then. Germany has flouted the League. Italy is doing the same. The nations congregate at Geneva to carry the Ark of the Covenant into action and then leave it in the hands of the Philistines. What remains? Common action has gone.
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        Collaboration has gone. But the great German army remains. The great air force of Germany remains. This is the condition of things which the right hon. Gentleman has been called upon to straighten out. I am certain he has the sincere sympathy and good will of everyone in this House, as has his colleague beside him, but they will do all the better if they realise the grim fact that all the elaborate machinery for disarmament has gone, that every nation is arming and building up these huge armies the momentum of which crashed into each other some years ago, and that the machinery of conciliation is completely discredited. They must begin afresh. They must think it out seriously and solemnly and see whether there is seine means of devising something by which the nations will and, to save civilisation from a great catastrophe.
        7.1 p.m.
        Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I have listened to my right hon. Friend's speech with very mixed feelings. At the beginning of that speech I hoped that I was going to be in general agreement and sympathy with it. I, too, had thought that in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary one phrase had been rather dangerously worded and might give rise to misconception; and I hope that the Secretary of State will satisfy himself that his meaning was exactly expressed by the words that he used. I agreed, too, with the right hon. Gentleman opposite that the situation with which we are confronted is sufficiently grim; and though I do not wish to encourage panic-mongering, I think we had better face the fact and realise that the atmosphere in Europe is much worse than it was a few years ago and that events have happened which, instead of allaying fears and removing suspicions, have increased and intensified them all. Europe at this moment has got in a state of tension and nervousness which is very dangerous, and it is perhaps little to be wondered at that the Powers of Europe who feel that shortly they may themselves be threatened are so very cautious about making any common contribution to the preservation of peace in fields in which they are not immediately interested So far I could go more or less with the right hon. Gentleman. But did he really think

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        he served the cause of peace by lecturing every other nation, and by using language of offence about the heads of other nations? If such language were used about our Ministers by other nations, I should resent it; and when it is used I do resent it. I think we do well to exercise a wise restraint, but we do not overlook, and perhaps we shall not find it so easy to forget, the kind of language which those we thought our friends have permitted themselves to use about this country and its policy and its statesmen in the last few weeks or months. Do not let us imitate those bad habits. You do not aid peace be doing that.
        Above all, may I beg my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) not to supply those who have no need of it—for they have a large manufactory of it—with more false history. I am not going to follow the right hon. Gentleman in reviewing the past; I am much more interested in looking forward and in looking at the present than in looking back. But I am just going to take a couple of instances. The right hon. Gentleman alluded to the reservation made by our Government at Geneva of the use of bombing aeroplanes for what is called police purposes. He went on to say that he believed that you might have had an agreement there and then; and that though he had understood that this condition was later withdrawn, it was withdrawn after Germany had left the League. I do not think I misrepresent him. Every one of those statements is incorrect. We were not the only Power which expressed its desire to attach conditions to its assent to the abolition of bombing; and our Government had undertaken before Germany left the League that if that were the only obstacle it should not be allowed to stand in the way.
        One other illustration. The right hon. Gentleman, as he rightly said, had more responsibility than any other Englishman for the Treaty of Versailles. He rightly recalled the circumstances in which it was made—and I will bear testimony to the fact that though his language on the platform was sometimes reckless, his mind was at, that time much more temperate than that of the majority of his countrymen. That is fair to say.
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        But if he says that all the harshest provisions of the Treaty have been maintained, then I would ask where has he been sleeping during these last few years? Have his literary labours so occupied his time that he has been wholly unaware of what has been passing in the world? Reparations have been swept away; and one of the harshest provisions of the Treaty, the occupation, terminated five years before the Treaty stipulated. That is what I mean when I say I hope he will not add to the manufacturing of false history.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: With regard to reparations, I say that reparations were enforced within the terms of the Treaty of Versailles to the utmost limit. The Treaty of Versailles fixed no figure at all, but it said that Germany must pay to the utmost limit of her capacity. As a matter of fact, nobody doubts now that Germany paid beyond the limit of her capacity. We exacted from her to the last halfpenny. There is not a financier in Europe who will not say so.
        Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: My right hon. Friend was not only a party to the fixing of all the earliest and highest figures but up to, though not including, the occupation of the Ruhr he was a party to all the sanctions to enforce Germany's obligation to pay. If he cannot be correct on the general history of the world, do let him remember his own history!
        I come now to the right hon. Gentleman's comments on Stresa. It is quite true that the announcement of Germany that she was going to create this immense force in defiance of her Treaty obligations was the most serious fact with which the world could be confronted. And it was particularly serious at that time when what the right hon. Gentleman still calls the Allies—a word I have never used since Locarno, because I do not want to maintain that distinction—but at the very moment when France and Italy and Great Britain were inviting Germany to sit down and discuss an agreement by which she should be relieved of her disabilities and come into a common limitation. I think a graver fact we could not have had. When the right hon. Gentleman called Stresa, "fatuous bluster" he was denouncing the Government because it did not allow these breaches of the Treaty to pass

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        unnoticed. What would he have done? It is no good talking in that case of economic sanctions without war.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that it is not I who talked about that? It is the Government themselves who put these exact words in. What is the good of their putting these words in if it meant war?
        Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The right hon. Gentleman is very free with his criticisms of the Government, but he has been very careful not to say what he would have done or what he would do. He reminds the Committee, and very justly, that he has borne great responsibility. For that reason I think that the Committee is entitled to greater help from him. If all that the Government have done was wrong, what was it he wished them to do? If Stresa was "fatuous bluster"—
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I would never have allowed it to come to that stage.
        Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Let the Committee note what that means. It means that when it became evident that Germany was re-arming the right hon. Gentleman would have proposed to France, who had not proposed it to us, that the French army should march into Germany at once.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: What do you mean by "economic sanctions"?
        Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I know exactly what I mean. I mean the employing of blockade, which is an act of war; and nothing short of an effective blockade—with all that that involved, to the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman as well as to my own knowledge during the War—would make economic sanctions effective.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is not so. It shows you know nothing about it.
        Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his courtesy! I leave it with that observation.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: If that was regarded as a discourteous observation, I apologise and withdraw it at once. The right hon. Gentleman is the last
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        person to whom I would ever dream of being discourteous.
        Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I am much obliged. The right hon. Gentleman is my political opponent, but always my personal friend. I said I was less interested in these matters than I was in the present and the future. I listened with close attention to the speech of the Foreign Secretary, and I think it will be thought a more important declaration of policy by the British Government when it is read in foreign countries than perhaps it has been perceived to be in some quarters of the Committee to-day. It is the first time for a very long time that a Foreign Minister has attempted to survey the state of the world and to define the position of the British Government in relation to it. On the whole, I think I may say that I was in agreement with the line taken by my right hon. Friend. I cannot imagine a more perverse misrepresentation of the speech of the Foreign Secretary than that contained in the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lime-house (Mr. Attlee) when he said that it was a renunciation of the League and a return to pre-war Imperialism. I think that it was the exact opposite. It was a re-affirmation of the fact that support of the League and co-operation with other Powers in the League, if they will give their co-operation, is the sheet anchor of British policy, as the Prime Minister said the other day. We are coming very near to what may be a test case for the League as to whether it does mean collective security; whether it does mean anything for any one or nothing for any one. It is not to be supposed that the League can be flouted under the eyes of Europe, that League methods can be repudiated, a policy of force and conflict engaged in, and that the League can pass all that by, because it happens to occur in Africa and not in Europe without thereby destroying the value of collective security not for Africa only but for Europe.
        I take an example. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary reaffirmed the view of His Majesty's Government that the maintenance of the independence and integrity of Austria was a British interest, and rightly so. I am quite certain that it is one of the keystones of peace in Europe, but the British Government have never taken upon

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        themselves any special obligation to Austria. If the central European Conference meets, they have announced beforehand that they are not going to undertake new obligations but they have repeated again and again, as they have repeated to-day through the mouth of the Foreign Secretary, that we are ready to stand by those obligations which we have already undertaken under the Covenant. The value of the Covenant to Austria and to the Powers that are interested in Austria is exactly the value that the League can secure for it when Abyssinia comes to plead at the Council, and it is idle to suppose that what is at stake in this matter is merely a quarrel between Abyssinia and Italy—a quarrel which might or might not affect our interests.
        What is at stake is the system of collective security. We cannot be the policemen of the world—that is an impossible position—but we ought to take our fair share in promoting security in co-operation with other members of the League, particularly with those who in a particular case can give the most effective support and are best situated to uphold its authority. We ought to do that only after discussion in the Council, and if it can be obtained with that authority. But if we do not live up to those obligations, then the whole collective system is gone. It is not merely that it has failed to protect Abyssinia; it is that it is a broken reed for any European Power to rely upon. It is more; in fact, it does not exist. I should be the last to attempt to say to my right hon. Friend how he should proceed in negotiations or at what time he should make up his mind, if he has to make it up, that the negotiations will give no result, but in the last resort we have to take our decision at the Council table at Geneva. We have to take the risk of saying, "We are prepared to fufil our obligations under the Covenant if others will do the same." We ought to say that openly to the Council even at the risk that others may refuse. Even if we have to use that language and others are offended by it and we come home empty handed, that much we owe to the honour of the British name and to the efforts that our successive Governments have made to make the League of Nations a
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        real force in international life in the interests of peace and security for us all.
        7.21 p.m.
        Colonel WEDGWOOD: I have merely got up to say "Thank you" to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) for expressing exactly the views that I wanted to express. I am not concerned about the dog fight between the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and any other party in this House, but I am concerned with preserving the honour of England at the particular juncture we have reached. We are now being tested. Everyone in this House, I will say almost everyone in the country, believes in collective security not for Abyssinia or any one country, but for the whole of the world as based upon the Covenant of the League of Nations. We have sufficient safety at the present time in exercising the power of collective security. It is within the province of every man to say that we should have done this in the case of Japan last year. I do not believe that at that time the policy of collective security was half so well founded as it is to-day. We had not got the results of the peace ballot showing the mind of the people, but now we know. Moreover—I am no hero and I do not go into a fight when there is a probability of my being defeated—I do not know how anything can be said against our policy to work through the League to preserve peace. I believe that there is no man or woman in this country who really believes that if we and France and the rest of the League said to Italy, "You shall not fight," Italy would dare to resist the power of the League by arms. The League in this matter is all-powerful.
        What is the situation with Germany? We are faced now with the collapse of the League as the basis of international law, and with the collapse of that collective security which is the sheet anchor of our foreign policy. We are faced with the fact that the Government, rightly or wrongly, will not express, as the right hon. Gentleman has expressed and as I think many Members of this House would like the Government to express, a frank opinion on this position. I am quite ready to believe that it is more or less impossible at the present time to do so, but let us realise that this is the turning

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        point. If the League fails to enforce peace, the League itself is dead as far as we are concerned, and we shall have to go back to that system of alliances with free powers which may indeed build up between ourselves and our Empire and the Scandinavian countries a new League of free peoples who are, at any rate, based upon a uniform morality and a uniform idea of liberty. That may be the only alternative. But surely it is obvious to everyone, if we face the situation frankly, that that does not rest with the League. It rests at this moment with us. If, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, when we come to Geneva, we say, "We are prepared to take on our part of this responsibility," we can put before them the clinching argument that, "If you do not take on your share of the responsibility, we will leave the League," and then let other Powers look after themselves. We will stick to the League for preserving peace for all people, but we will not remain in the League for preserving peace, not for those who are in the League, but for other people.
        7.26 p.m.
        Mr. CROSSLEY: This is the first time I have had an opportunity to speak in a foreign affairs debate, and I do so with some diffidence. We have heard to-day several remarkable speeches, but the one that I would like above all to endorse is the one we have heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain). I should like to examine the case, I hope logically, from the point of view not only of Abyssinia, but, above all other things, from the point of view of Europe. Whatever sort of nation Abyssinia may be, I believe that what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) has said is true—she is a member of the League, and if she is invaded the Covenant of the League ought to apply. Let us look at that situation from the point of view of the three countries most concerned, Italy, France and Great Britain. Italy's commitments are, I believe, specific enough. She signed the Treaty of 1906, she signed the Treaty of amity in 1928, she endorsed the Covenant of the League, and she pressed for Abyssinia's entrance into the League. All of these, I believe, are relevant facts, and, if Italy should invade Abyssinia, then surely it becomes as much a case of treaty
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        breaking as the invasion of Belgium in 1914.
        That is not the point of view of France, and, of course, France regards this as a European question. France depends, and must depend, very considerably upon the League, but I doubt if she has ever really considered its application beyond the boundaries of Europe. If I may quote from the most interesting book of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Tallyrand once said that the principal interests of France are never in opposition to those of Europe, and, if that is a profound truth as applied to Europe, may not it be taken in these days as applying to the rest of the world. Many of us may regret that the League of Nations is founded, as it is, to cover the world, and we would like to see it specialise on Europe and be limited to Europe for the time being. It is a world moral, and I hope effective, force, and so long as it is, I believe that it is true to say that the boundaries of Abyssinia under the League are as sacrosanct as the boundaries of France under the Treaty of Locarno, which is itself linked to the League.
        I come to this country. What ought we to do? A short time ago the Prime Minister made a great speech in which he used the sentence:
        "The sheet anchor of our policy is devotion to the League of Nations."
        That is true. If the Covenant of the League of Nations is still the sheet anchor of our policy, we must face up to the fact, as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham said, that this country will in the near future possibly have to propose at the Council of the League of Nations that the machinery of the League be set in action. I believe with my right hon. Friend that, if events go so far, that is the only action which will save the honour of the British name.
        I want to spend a few minutes on another matter, and that is the state of public opinion on foreign affairs within this country. I listened with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). It is the second speech from the right hon. Gentleman that I have heard within the last week. For the past year I have been trying to get into contact with public opinion on matters of foreign policy. I have not so

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        much put what I thought as I have tried to find out what other people were thinking. I have found great confusion of thought and great devotion to the League of Nations. The confusion of thought may be natural at a time when foreign politics are the prerogative of the whole democracy and in no way the prerogative any longer of the clubs of Pall Mall. It may be natural that the very catch words of foreign policy bring confusion. I jotted down some of them: collective security, sanctions, security pacts, nonaggression pacts, international air conventions. They are all long and confusing, and I was glad that in the speech of the Foreign Secretary, for the first time for a considerable period, the people of this country have had a speech which they can understand.
        In my search to discover what people were thinking I found myself in several curious places. Last week I found myself at a meeting of the Council of Action for Peace and Reconstruction, and I should like to say a few things about that meeting. In the first place, I think it was an example of confusion of thought among many well-meaning people. Lord Cecil made a speech demanding the full Covenant of the League. That speech was vociferously and wildly applauded. Then the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made a speech on pacifism, which was equally enthusiactically applauded by the same people. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) next made a speech saying that the country should be stirred. I do not think that needed any great comment. After such speeches I thought that I had better try myself, and I asked one or two questions. I asked whether they wished to go to war on behalf of the League if Abyssinia was invaded. Some answered "Yes" and some answered "No." One very brilliant fellow said that that was a hypothetical question. I wish it was. Then the meeting was taken back by a reverend gentleman, Dr. Norwood, into a state of semi-religious exhortation, generalisation and, if I may say so, insinuation.
        It was natural that on the next day I should go to hear the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. I have given him notice—perhaps it was presumptious
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        that I should have done so—that I intended to make reference to his speech, but I notice that he is not in his place. After his speech of to-day it may possibly be of some use in clarifying public thought as to this particular movement, which I regard as a menace to peace and collective security, if I give a very brief analysis of the right hon. Gentleman's speech on that occasion, from notes which I made and from the "Manchester Guardian" report next day. His first paragraph was devoted to a comparison of world expenditure on armaments. His second paragraph was an interlude, very entertaining, on window dressing. The next paragraph was an examination of British expenditure, and regrets as to the more useful purposes which they money might have served. The fourth paragraph was a list of opportunities that have been missed, which he repeated to-day and which have been pretty well dealt with in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham. His fifth paragraph was an interpolated insinuation about submarines. He also interpolated a statement about his own disarmament policy before 1914. After that, he asserted that military alliances were returning.
        I am deeply concerned as to the education of public opinion on the meaning of terms in foreign policy and the implications of foreign policy to-day. I do not think the country understands. That is a work not only for the Government but for us to undertake. We ourselves, I think, have to be educated before we fully understand, and I hope that the Government will take us into their confidence about the implications of foreign policy in the future.
        Of the speech of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs the other day I would say that if he is going to go about the country making speeches of that kind, confusing public thought, because that is what it amounts to, he is doing no service to peace, and he is doing less service still to collective security. He is making foreign countries suspicious. I hope that he will desist, because if he does not he will do much harm. His great position enables him to do great harm. I would remind the Committee that the right hon. Gentleman made that speech in support of a manifesto which demanded the election of

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        Members of Parliament at the next election devoted to the policy of peace and in support of the League of Nations, My right hon. Friend must have known that the crisis for the League of Nations would come long before the General Election, and I hoped to hear what he advocated, but he never advocated anything.
        I hope very much that my right hon. Friend the new Foreign Secretary, who has the whole House behind him in his desperately hard task, will not be afraid that he is not going to receive the full support of a great number of Members of this House who believe that the League of Nations is the only effective hope of securing world peace.
        7.40 p.m.
        Mr. MANDER: By far the most important speech this afternoon was that of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), who, in the closing passages of his remarks, in a most admirable way, expressed the views of the great mass of the people of this country. At the same time, I should like to pay a tribute to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary for his very admirable and lucid review of our foreign policy throughout the world. It seemed to me to be a moderate, reasonable and League point of view, and I very much hope that subsequent events will show that it is the policy which he means whole-heartedly to stand by so long as he holds his present office. There were two passages in his speech with which I did not altogether agree. One was the friendly gesture, inevitable in the circumstances, to Japan. There we have a situation where the collective system has completely broken down and League ideas do not operate. I suppose the Foreign Secretary felt that all that he could do was to recognise the position as it unfortunately exists. The other point was the apparent unwillingness, it may not be real, to make clear to the world that we adopt the point of view expressed so ably by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham, and that we will publicly if necessary before the whole world make it clear that we intend to stand by our obligations and to invite the other nations to co-operate with us in case of aggression, whether it be in Abyssinia or in any other part of the world.
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        The right hon. Gentleman was very satisfied that what he had done with regard to the Naval Treaty was quite in order, that it did not infringe any treaty or agreement, and that every other foreign country ought to be well satisfied. That may be his view, but it is not the position in Europe. Unfortunately, possibly quite wrongly, France takes the strongest exception to the way we carried through that Treaty. We have no doubt, quite wrongly, conveyed the impression that we are breaking away from our old friendship and going further into a friendship of some kind with Germany. If that were so, I do not think that there could be anything more repulsive to the people of this country. Surely, our friends are the friends of the League of Nations, and our enemies, if any, will be found among those who are hostile to the League of Nations.
        When the Minister for League of Nation Affairs makes his reply I hope that he will make some reference to the question of international inspection of aeroplane fleets, because it has been suggested—I think it came out in reply to a question yesterday—that there is not a great deal of hope of securing the incorporation of that point. It is a matter of absolutely vital importance that there should be opportunities for an international staff to go to Germany and France and to come here in order to find out whether the various countries are really carrying out what they have undertaken to do. It would be some reassurance if the Government could state that they intend to do everything in their power to see that that point is incorporated.
        In the very grave situation in which we find ourselves to-day I think that many people are being driven more and more to the conclusion that we shall have to adopt something in the nature of an international police force under the League of Nations and a tribunal of equity to make a reality of Article 19 of the Covenant. That, however, is going some way ahead. But I would point out the remarkable advance in opinion that has taken place recently. At the annual conference of the British Legion, a powerful and representative body, a resolution was passed practically unanimously in these terms:
        "and, further, it urges His Majesty's Government to take the initiative in

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        developing the League of Nations into an effective authority, through the creation of an equity tribunal, for the settlement of all disputes between nations and a permanent international police force to maintain law and order and uphold the decisions of the tribunal."
        That is very important coming from the British Legion. It is also the policy of the Labour party, and at the recent annual conference of the Liberal party at Blackpool a resolution in more or less the same terms was officially carried as the policy of the Liberal party. But that is looking perhaps a little way ahead. What can we do now? If the present Abyssinian dispute were to pass without this country or the League of Nations making any attempt to make the Covenant work there would be a tremendous revulsion of feeling in this country against the Government. At the same time, I know that we cannot possibly act alone, and no one would suggest it, we have merely to carry out our obligations as a member of the League. The Government, I believe, are sincere; they do really wish on this occasion to use the collective system it may be to the limit. They have not made their task any easier by rather clumsily, although unintentionally, alienating France, and queering their own pitch. But I hope that we shall not be content with going to France and saying privately, "Will you co-operate with us, will you come in with us if it is necessary to do anything about Abyssinia." I hope that we shall, in the last resort, make clear to France that we intend the question to be answered in full world publicity at Geneva, and if that is done I cannot conceive any other result but one. The choice before France would be this: are you going with the League of Nations and all it stands for, or with Italy and repudiate all the obligations you have talked so much about for many years past? There could be only one reply. But if that is not so, if France is unwilling to co-operate publicly, the effort ought to be made so that the world shall know that the responsibility for failure to make the collective system function is not ours.
        The Foreign Secretary asked that Members intervening in the Debate should be as constructive as possible. It seems to me that we want a two-fold policy at the next meeting of the Council at
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        Geneva. It is not enough to be acting merely as policemen. I suggest that there might be a way out if we were able to obtain support for the appointment of a neutral commission, as part of the machinery of Article 19, to go into the whole question of the merits of the dispute between Italy and Abyssinia, and into the very natural and proper feelings which Italy has that she has not sufficient outlets for her surplus population at the present time; and that we should give an undertaking to stand by and support and fulfil any findings such a commission might come to. If such a commission reported that there should be a sacrifice of some British territory, some transfer, I think that as a price of world peace it would be worth doing. That is a constructive idea. We must be in a position to offer Italy some way of obtaining her demands other than by the use of force.
        I should like to ask the Foreign Secretary what attitude the Government propose to take with regard to the official request made some weeks ago by Abyssinia for the appointment by the League of Nations of neutral observers to be sent to the frontiers, no doubt to go about by aeroplanes, there is no other way. It would be of great value in giving absolutely impartial information to the Governments of what was taking place, and the mere fact that League of Nations officials, an international police force on a small scale, were there, would be a constant warning to the Powers concerned that they were not dealing with a purely private quarrel between the two countries. I hope that we shall act with the greatest courage in this case. There never can be a clearer case, and if the collective system collapses it will collapse not only there but in Europe and everywhere else, and it would not be possible for France to rely on the good will of this country to come to her aid in case of any trouble which might arise with Germany.
        Peace is absolutely indivisible in all parts of the world. We must take all risks, and only by taking all risks can we in the end save the lives of many millions of our fellow citizens throughout the world. As regards the public opinion of this country, reference has been made to the remarkable figures disclosed by the ballot. Ninety-seven and a-half per cent.

        577
        of the 11,500,000 voters are behind the League of Nations, but what is probably more significant is that three out of four of those who voted on the question stated that they were in favour, if necessary, of taking military action, in a police sense of course, for the maintenance of the Covenant of the League. If the Government were to come forward at any stage with all their strength and authority, supported as they would be by both sections of the Opposition, they would carry the overwhelming majority of the country with them in this great effort to save the League and all it stands for. I hope that they will act fearlessly, in accordance with the pledged word of this country, and in that way save the world and civilisation from disaster.
        7.56 p.m.
        Mr. ENTWISTLE: One thing has emerged from this Debate and that is the helplessness of all past efforts to secure disarmament or any security for peace. No one who listened to the melancholy recital of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George), when he read out the various pacts and declarations of certain nations under these pacts and agreements and pointed out what their conduct had been on the various occasions when their self interest was involved, can fail to realise that mere pacts and agreements have hitherto provided no effective security for peace. I want to examine for a moment the explanation of that; and in examining it I am going to suggest to the Committee that the only policy worth aiming at, and which has the slightest chance of giving us effective security for peace, is the idea of an international police force. In dealing with this matter I do not accept the position that it is impracticable, indeed, no greater harm can be done to the idea than to say it is a delightful utopian dream.
        The failure of the efforts towards disarmament, and they have been innumerable, have undoubtedly been due to the fact that we could not procure security which would satisfy France and other nations, and the reason why such security could not be procured was that there were no effective sanctions behind any of the pacts or agreements which bind nations at the present time. There are, of course, certain sanctions in the Covenant of the League of Nations, of an
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        economic character, but they have proved impracticable to carry out or, at any rate, those nations which agreed to carry them out have failed up to the present to fulfil their obligations. I suggest that this is the only way to provide effective security for peace. When we examine the past we shall find that all the failures are ultimately attributable to the fact that there were no effective sanctions behind any of the agreements and pacts which have been entered into. The preservation of law and order in any country ultimately depends on the police force, however small it may be, and precisely the same applies to nations. Until the analogy is realised to hold true of nations all efforts for obtaining peace will be doomed to failure.
        It is said that it is an impracticable ideal; that before it can be brought into operation it will need international agreement. So does disarmament, and so do any of the pacts which this government and other governments have been endeavouring to bring about. Has any single proposal or method to bring about peace not been impracticable up to a point? What I say is practicable—and this is the burden of my speech—is that the British Government should declare itself in favour of the principle of an international police force to carry out the decisions of an international tribunal in equity, and that that tribunal, which is an essential part of the whole thing, should have complete jurisdiction over any dispute which might arise between nations. It is not impracticable that this country should declare itself in favour of that idea. Would anything result from it? Personally I am not of the belief that this would come in the dim and distant future. There is no doubt that the one proposal which France has consistently advocated since the War, and which alone would give real satisfaction to her, is this international police force, and in advocating the security of an international police force France has expressly said that she would agree to the setting up of a tribunal which should have the power of revising the Treaty of Versailles. There is no question about it. France has made these specific proposals. They were made by the then Air Minister for France, M. Pierre Cot, in February, 1933. We are inclined to forget this. I know it is said that when we get down to what are called brass tacks, France would

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        make reservations and modifications, and that there is no knowing, when it comes to thrash out the details, whether France would go to the same distance as other nations.
        The fact remains that France is desirous of peace, but that the one difficulty with her is that of obtaining security, and being logically-minded she is sincerely convinced that the only effective security for peace will be in the establishment of the international police force. The proposal was made by France in February, 1933, and the nations who gave the principle their support were Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Belgium, Norway and Spain. In fact, Spain had a proposal of its own for the establishment of such a force. That is a considerable start, and although some of the nations are not as important as others, nobody can doubt that starting with France, the Scandinavian countries, Spain, Belgium and some of the Balkan States—all previously war-like nations—is a very significant factor.
        Why should not we as a nation declare ourselves in favour of this principle? It does involve a tribunal in equity which would have complete jurisdiction to decide on any dispute between nations, and unless you have such a tribunal there is no hope of permanent peace in the world. That was the whole idea of the League of Nations, but we have found that in practice the idea has not brought about the results which we hoped. All I ask is that this country should take the position which France has done and say that it is in favour of the establishment of an international police force and then let us see what would happen if we took the initiative. I think it is the only practicable way. We have taken the initiative on many matters, but never in this connection, and I believe the reason has been reluctance to accept the decision of an international tribunal which might affect Sovereign rights, and also a reluctance to becoming involved in a dispute which we might think did not concern us.
        The reason for the failure of these various attempts in the past has been that nobody has had any faith that agreements and pacts would be observed when it came to the pinch, and the objection
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        to an agreement such as the conditional Air Pact recently signed between this country and France is that it involves agreement to provide national contingents. One thing that has stood in the way of any success of the past efforts has been the fact the nations all thought that treaties and pacts would not be implemented when occasion arose. There is only one way in which you can be assured that the sanctions behind any agreement will be effective, and that is by establishing your material force before the occasion arises, before the dispute has broken out. It must be of a homogeneous character, not dependent on ad hoc contingents from other Powers. There must be an international force established in peace time ready to enter into action the moment the occasion arises. It has often been said that that is impracticable. I believe that if the force were an air force there would be no technical difficulties in the way either of the creation, administration or bringing into effective use of an international police force.
        It is obvious that the difficulties of administration of an air force are nothing comparable to those of an international army or navy. From the purely strategical point of view the important points to be settled will be the allocation of territories over which a particular section of the air force should act. We have had international armies and navies in the past. The Marlborough campaigns were an international army and navy. When you come to an air force the technical difficulties are of no insuperable character, in my opinion. The difficulties, therefore, are purely political, and the chief difficulty is that of getting nations to abide by the decision of an international tribunal however important the issue involved. If we are sincerely desirous for peace, as we are, I suggest that this Government should follow as far as France has gone, and declare itself in favour of the principle of an international air police force and take the initiative in trying to get agreement on those lines. A declaration in that sense would, in my view, be helpful in the present position which faces us in the Italo-Abyssinian dispute. France has had reason to complain of the reluctance of this country and other countries to give her any effective security, and when she is now faced with the position of

        581
        employing sanctions against Italy, with whom she has recently entered into an alliance, she is naturally hesitating. I believe that if we announced that this country was prepared to show its belief in collective security in its only logical form, that is, in the establishment of an air police force, it would have a pro- found influence in France, and indirectly would have an influence over Mussolini in the Abyssinian dispute. I beg of the Government that they should consider expressing their minds on this import- ant question of an international police force. However difficult it may be to reach international agreement on it that is no reason why this Government should not declare itself in favour of the principle. That, at any rate, is a practicable thing to ask of it, and I urge that they should make a declaration in that direction.
        Mr. COVE: On a point of Order. I wish to direct your attention, Commander Cochrane, to the fact that there is no representative of the Foreign Office present. Is it that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has absorbed all their attention, or is it an insult to the back benchers in this Debate?
        The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Commander Cochrane): That is not a point of Order.
        8.10 p.m.
        Mr. COCKS: I would like to wish the Foreign Secretary success in the great work that he has to do, and if I criticise him it is only because I think that when great issues are involved, things which may affect the whole future of the world, one cannot allow personal feeling to interfere with the statements that one feels bound to make on points of principle. It is rather difficult to take part in this discussion after so many eminent and ancient, elderly statesmen have spoken, and on a subject of great difficulty which is broken up into so many parts. I have rarely heard in a debate on Foreign Policy so much false history as I have heard to-night. In my view it is untrue to say that there was any time in the course of the Disarmament Conference when, if the British Government had taken another attitude, they could have abolished bombers. The reason was because there were many countries, including Germany, who re-
        582
        fused to internationalise civil aviation, and without international control of civil aviation no nation would agree to the abolition of bombers. It is inaccurate, too, to say that Germany had so completely disarmed that the Council of Ambassadors took away the Committee of Control. In the last report written by that Committee, which has never been published but which is in the archives of Geneva, they stated that the disarmament of Germany had never been complete, that the disarmament clauses of the Treaty of Versailles had never been fully fulfilled by the German Government.
        I think it is very wrong to suggest that France is the one country that has prevented disarmament. As the hon. Member has just said, it is impossible to get any disarmament except within a sphere of security. That has always been my view, and it has been the view of many eminent authorities, and many governments. Unless you have security, no nation will disarm. One of the reasons why disarmament has not been brought about is that this Government and its predecessors have always refused to take part fully in a system of collective security which would give that atmosphere of security in which disarmament could be brought about. This country is as much to blame as any other. The Foreign Secretary has asked us to be realists, and I want to direct the attention of the Committee to what I feel is the essential and most important issue in Europe to-day—that is, the rearmament of Germany and the aims and ambitions of the present German Government. I have no wish or intention to say wounding things about another Government, but no Government can complain if I quote the words of its leader to explain what the policy of Germany is. I wish to call attention to the following statement, which shows clearly what the policy of Herr Hitler is, and to do him justice he has never disguised it. Speaking at Nuremburg in September, 1933, he said:
        "The programme which I drew up in 1921 was one which deliberately struck the pacifist and democratic world in the face."
        When we turn to that programme we find the following words:
        "We claim all Germans in Sudetan Germany"—
        which I understand to be Czechoslovakia—

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        "in Alsace-Lorraine, in Poland, in the League Colony of Austria, and the States which succeeded to the old Austria … We demand land and territory (Colonies) for the nourishment of our people and for settling our superfluous population."
        Speaking in Munich on 20th March, 1934, he said:
        "The map of Germany has to be altered until the unification of the German people is complete."
        If those views represent the ambitions of the present Government in Germany, and I have quoted the Fuhrer's own words, I put it to the Committee that that is a policy which cannot be fulfilled except by acts of force and violence, in other words by war and conquest. There is no other way. Let me now turn to the methods by which the present German Government propose to carry out this policy. I take "Mein Kampf," Herr Hitler's book which is read officially in all the schools in Germany to-day and has a circulation in that country running into millions. I quote these words:
        "In order to regain Germany's lost provinces it is necessary … to strengthen. … the unshakable decision hidden in the heart of the people to devote its freshly gained strength to the … unification of the entire people. For suppressed provinces are not led back into the lap of an empire by flaming protests but through a well-sharpened sword. To forge this sword is the object of a people's domestic policy; to see that the forging is done and to seek allies in arms is the object of its foreign policy."
        I next draw the attention of the Committee to an interesting quotation about the tactics which are being pursued by Germany at present. Dr. Helmut Koltz in his book on "Germany's Secret Armaments" states that at a birthday party in honour of Herr Hitler on 20th April, 1934, the Fuhrer said to a small group of friends:
        "In the listless irresolution of England lies our chance. The spineless passivity which has characterised the British Government since 1919 will enable us to pass unscathed through the danger zone which we deliberately entered with the victory of the National Socialist idea … In two years, at the latest, we shall have achieved our aim."
        That is, by April of next year. In view of what has happened during the last two years it would seem that that policy is being carried out in Germany. In face of that situation, what are the other nations of Europe to do? It seems to
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        me that the only policy to meet a programme of that kind is for the other nations to combine together under the League of Nations in order to present an unshakeable front and to confront Nazi Germany with such an overwhelming aggregation of force that she would never dare to make war and to hold her in that unbreakable ring until the system collapses from within. That seems the only sane policy for statesmen to adopt and it is the policy which was advocated by M. Litvinoff. What on the other hand have the Governments done? I think their first big mistake was in connection with the Disarmament Conference. When Germany withdrew from the League and began secretly to re-arm we went after her and signed the Five Power Declaration in which we promised her equality of rights in a system which would provide security for all nations. I have always held the opinion that the wording of that Declaration was unwise. What we should have given her, in order to bring her back into the Disarmament Conference was a pledge to bring about a reduction of armaments in a sphere of security instead of equality of armaments. Once equality of armaments was promised she at once sought not to bring about disarmament but to bring her own armaments up to the level of those of the other Powers or above that level.
        As a result of that action, German armament shares started to rise and at that very moment Hitler became Chancellor of Germany. All pacifists were suppressed, put into concentration camps or killed. All pacifist propaganda was declared illegal. Pacifist books were burned and people like Von Papen made speeches about the horrible fate of dying on a mattress. Militarism reigned supreme. The German delegates did not return to assist the work of the Disarmament Conference. Contrary to what we have been led to believe tonight, they adopted a very hostile and difficult attitude. They moved one hostile amendment after another to the plan of the right hon. Gentleman who is now Lord President of the Council. In view of the present attitude of the "Times" it is interesting to note what that newspaper said at the time. In May, 1933, the "Times" said the German Government seemed to be intent upon holding up the Disarmament Conference, and went on to say that if Germany

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        wanted the whole population to be trained in arms the Conference was doomed to failure and the blame for that failure would be squarely placed upon the shoulders of Germany, who would find herself completely isolated. The "Times" also said that before challenging other countries to disarm it would be better to disprove, if it was possible to disprove, that one of the main objects of Hitlerism was to prepare Germany for a war of revenge. Towards the close of that month Hitler made his famous moderate speech in which he said he would accept a five years' transitional period with equality at the end. The "Times" next day struck a very cautious note and said:
        "The militarist school in Germany is just as anxious for a period of quiet as those who genuinely believe in international co-operation. They require time in which to strengthen their armed forces and mature their plans."
        At this time there was great secret armament activity going on in Germany, and in July, 1933, the "Times" announced that the German armament works had increased the number of workers by one-third, and that the shares were rising. On 28th July the "Times" said:
        "Let it be plainly stated that the one way in which Germany cannot be allowed to present her claim is at the point of the sword."
        Then we remember the Disarmament Conference of October, 1933, when for the first time it seemed that a general limitation of armaments was in sight. Germany withdrew, and everybody thought she was not justified in so doing. She withdrew, in my view, because she did not want to disarm, because she did not want international inspection, which would have disclosed the secret armaments that she was building up. She wanted to gain time in which to re-arm. It reminds me of the story of Themistocles when, after the Persian War, Sparta called a disarmament conference and suggested that the walls of Athens and other Greek cities should not be built. Before attending the conference he told the Athenians to start building the walls as rapidly as they could. He then went to Sparta but delayed coming to the meeting and made all sorts of excuses. Rumours came along that the walls of Athens were being built but Themistocles said that this was all
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        nonsense. Finally, having got the information that the walls of Athens had been rebuilt, he said, "The thing is done now." The disarmament conference came to an end, and everyone went back to his own city quite happily.
        That is what Germany has been doing for some years past. She has been working for postponement after postponement in order to build up her arms in secret. When Germany left the Conference in October, 1933, that was the time when the other nations should have taken firm action. They should have gone on with the Conference without her and tried to work out a Convention themselves. They should have refused credit to Germany, and they should have refused her the raw materials necessary for the building up of munitions of war. I believe Poland at that time did wish pressure of that sort to be put on her. The "Times" newspaper said:
        "It is the first duty of other Governments to show him (Herr Hitler) that the ways of the swashbuckler and the hot-head will bring him no success in diplomacy."
        But the British Government made conciliatory gestures to Germany. The late Foreign Secretary said that to ask Germany to sign a Convention on the dotted lines was to drive the iron into Germany's soul.
        The year 1934 was a completely wasted year. The Government continued to send Notes to other Governments and to engage in futile diplomatic exchanges. They suggested that Germany should be allowed to have aeroplanes in two years' time, although she had them already. In March there was a startling increase in the Service Estimates of the German Army, Navy and Air Force, and then we had the explanation of Herr von Neurath that it was untrue that Germany was contemplating not only preparations for defensive equipment, but the acquisition of offensive arms. That was on 27th April last year. I leave that remark without comment. Our Government did nothing. They refused to stop the exportation even of aeroplane engines to Germany and at the meeting of the Disarmament Conference in May they refused to take part in a Security Pact which might bring about a reduction in armaments and pursued instead the will of the wisp of trying to get Germany to return to the Conference. In June last year came the public exposé of the

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        Nazi methods, when all those assassinations took place in Germany On 25th July, after ceaseless propaganda over the wireless, Herr Dolfuss was assassinated, and in that assassination the complicity of Nazi Germany has been proved up to the hilt.
        Now we come to this year. From the beginning of the year the aims of Germany have been encouraged in this country, first of all by the fact that last December the Bank of England granted Germany a credit of £750,000, which has all been used for the purchase of munitions, and then by the visit of two Noble Lords to Berlin, one of them a conscientious objector and the other a Christian Scientist. They both came back with great admiration for Herr Hitler. Great harm has been done by the visit of the mischievous Marquess and the late head of the "No Conscription" Fellowship. Simultaneously there has been the astounding attitude of the "Times" newspaper, which is supposed abroad to be an official newspaper. The "Times" has had leading articles week after week and month after month, which might have been written by Herr Von Ribbentrop himself. It seems to me that the office of the "Times" might not have been in Printing House Square but in Carlton House Terrace, where the German Embassy is. On the 3rd February there came the famous declaration, of which we have heard a great deal, in which France and England decided on an Eastern Pact, a Danubian Pact, a Western Pact, Germany to return to the League, an Armaments agreement to replace Part V of the Treaty of Versailles, and so on. Germany apparently accepted that, or said she would consider it favourably. The German Government, however, did not want to return to the League or to have an Eastern Pact or a Danubian Pact.
        Then came blow after blow from Germany. On the 12th March she announced that she was going to have an Air Force; on the 17th she announced that she was going to establish conscription; on the 24th and 26th March, when the Foreign Secretary visited Berlin, he was told that Germany had already reached equality in the air; on the 26th April the "Daily Telegraph" announced that the German Air Force was double ours; on the 29th April, just
        588
        before the proposed Naval Conference, Germany said she was building 12 submarines. In fact, we were faced by a series of faits accomplis. As a result of that we had the Stresa Agreement, which condemned unilateral repudiation of Treaties. On the 21st May, as a result of certain speeches made in this country, Herr Hitler made a speech which has never been fully reported in the British Press even yet, although reports have come over from Germany in full translation. I have studied that speech very carefully, word for word, and I consider that the favourable impression that was created by the way in which it was put into the newspapers was quite unjustified, because, according to that speech Herr Hitler was against the collective system, which he called a mania, he was against treaties of mutual assistance, and he was against the fundamental principles for which the League of Nations stands.
        He said he was in favour of nonaggression pacts, but as he had already signed the Kellogg Pact, which is a pact of non-aggression, I do not know that that meant very much. He was against the collective system. What he wanted to do when a war took place was that it should be kept between the two parties who were making the war and not be allowed to spread; in other words, that other nations should not be bound to come in and put down the aggressor. It means that if he wanted to attack Czechoslovakia or Austria, no one could come in to the assistance of those nations. With regard to the question of Germany's return to the League, he was very vague.
        As a result of a question which I asked the Secretary of State last week, I was told that the present Government have tried to obtain a more definite explanation from him as to the terms on which he would consider coming into the League, but that they have failed in that effort. He did say he would not modify the frontiers of Germany by force but he demanded self-determination for the German people outside the frontiers of Germany, he hinted that the Austrian Government had no legal foundation, and he would only consent to a pact of nonintervention in the internal affairs of other countries if the question of non-intervention was strictly defined and the

        589
        pact was signed internationally by all the other nations in the world. In view of the actions of Japan it is not likely that such a pact could be agreed upon. He wanted an Air Pact on the West, but he said he would not in any circumstances reduce the numbers of his Army which was to be the largest in Europe and he wanted a Navy of a strength equal to 35 per cent. of the British Navy. It was the speech of a man who wanted to gain time until his military reorganisation was complete, and although the Prime Minister said he thought he saw some light in that speech, I think it was a red light, which should be a warning to us and to Europe.
        Now we come to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. I have a statement by the late Foreign Secretary at Geneva on the 17th November, 1932, as follows:
        "The Treaty of Versailles is a binding document. It cannot be set on one side by unilateral action. It can be modified only by agreement."
        By the declaration of the 3rd February, France and Great Britain agreed that neither Germany nor any other Power whose armaments had been defined by the Peace Treaties was entitled by unilateral action to modify those obligations. The Stresa Declaration has been quoted with dramatic force by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and there we said exactly the same thing. In spite of that, we find the Anglo-German Agreement, which is a distinct breach of all those declarations. The French Government were asked what their opinion of this agreement. Their Note was received on the 18th June, and a few hours later the agreement was signed. Why was there such a hurry? Why was not the French Government given the courtesy of knowing that their Note had been studied? I understand that the reason was that the German Naval Delegation said that if there was any delay, they would go back to Germany and would declare instantly that they were going to build up to 50 per cent. of our strength. If I had been there and had heard Herr Von Ribbentrop say that, I should have replied, "I have a speedy car outside. Perhaps I can assist you in getting back to Germany a little faster than you would otherwise be able to go." What I say is proved by the fact that
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        a representative of the Government has stated that to have insisted on prior consultation with other countries, it would definitely have meant the loss of the agreement.
        We in this country do not remember our anniversaries but other peoples do. June 18 is a significant date. It is the anniversary of the battle of Waterloo when the British and the Prussians fought side by side against the French. That fact has been noted on the Continent and used in German propaganda.
        What has the agreement done? It has alarmed the Baltic States, which are now at the mercy of the naval power of Germany. It has enraged France. We were told to-day that the agreement will give France a bigger fleet than Germany. On looking through the figures which were kindly supplied to me by the First Lord of the Admiralty, I see that, as far as battleships are concerned, the tonnage allotted to Germany under the treaty will give them a superiority over the French battleship fleet in modem vessels. We were told by the Foreign Secretary this afternoon that it is a good agreement for France, because it gives her a superiority of 43 per cent. over the German Navy—which I query—against an inferiority of 30 per cent. before the War. France and England had before the War made a naval agreement which almost amounted to a naval alliance, by means of which the French fleet was transferred to the Mediterranean, and we agreed to look after the northern shores of France. We were holding the German fleet with our immense Navy at that time, while the French fleet was in the Mediterranean. There is no naval agreement with France to-day, but there is an agreement with Germany, and as a result of that agreement the "Times," I notice, sees fit to utter threats to France by saying, "If you increase your navy, Britain and Germany will have to consider increases also." Not only has the agreement done that, but it has tremendously weakened the position of the League. It has weakened our position with regard to Abyssinia, and it has increased German prestige throughout Europe. Messages which have passed the censorship show that the Germans are jubilant as a result of the treaty. In my view, the agreement was a tragedy and almost an act of bad

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        faith. It is one of the most unfortunate things that has happened in modern affairs.
        This is not the time to go into the technical details of the Treaty, for we shall have an opportunity of doing that on another occasion. It contains many of the features of a naval alliance. For instance, we alone can give the German nation permission to increase its fleet above the 35 per cent. if it so suits us. It seems to me that with that concentrated fleet in the North Sea—because it is always said that our fleet is none too strong—the British Navy in future will be unable to carry out its obligations to the League in distant waters. The "Times" yesterday said::
        "The British and German naval strengths rise and fall together. The naval strength of Germany has been linked to that of this country."
        Does this mean that the pro-Hitler party in this country, which has always favoured the Hitler policy in Germany as being the enemy of Socialism and Russia, and is blind to the fact that such a policy is ultimately against the interests of this land has at last captured the Cabinet? If that is the fact there is no reason for us to suppose that the big increase in our Air Force is made in reply to the German Air Force, but rather may it be intended to keep the ring for Germany when the attack on the east or the south occurs. If that be so, if credits are given by the Bank of England to aid Germany to build up arms, and there is more rearmament of Germany from this country, it is the duty of Socialists to say that, although we are prepared to support the Army, Navy and Air Force in order to carry out the obligations of collective security under the League of Nations, we shall oppose all increases in the armament Estimates for the purpose of furthering a pro-Nazi policy. I hope that is not true. I hope this is not an indication of a pro-Nazi force which is conquering the Cabinet, but only something which has been done as a mistake and which will not be repeated. I hope the Government will see the peril that confronts us and the world if such a policy is pursued, and that they will go back to support, and support fully and sincerely, the idea of collective security, remembering all the time that the greatest menace to
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        the world to-day is the presence of a strong naval and military power in the heart of Europe, animated by ideals and principles which, as I have tried to show, are incompatible with the maintenance of peace.
        8.46 p.m.
        Miss GRAVES: I will not detain the Committee more than a very few minutes during my excursion into realism. I have listened, in common with many Members of this House, to scoldings of the Government, to demagogic orations destined to have repercussions outside this House, and to some constructive remarks, notably perhaps those which fell from the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) and from the speaker who followed him. I do not presume to be constructive to-night, but I would like to state things as I see them. Italy is going ahead, perhaps because it is the fate of a dictator, as it was once that of the priest of Nemi, to slay or himself be slain. Nothing will stop Italy. No Debate in this House will be reported there. Not even the weighty speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State will reach more than a few ears in Rome. Nothing will stop a nation guided by the hand of he whom the gods have perhaps stricken mad. France will not lift a hand. It is, if I may say so, very special pleading to say that she will not lift a hand because she is annoyed with us about the German naval agreement. In another capacity I should say that was nonsense. It is because she is bound by her declaration of friendship with Italy.
        Abyssinia is in the unfortunate position of being the object of Italian expansion. They can no longer release their surplus population on to the shores of Ellis Island in America; no longer send them over here to Soho in various capacities with the same facility as formerly. That expansion will carry Italy through the lowlands of Abyssinia, that expansion will dash those troops against that mighty plateau which rises in the centre of Abyssinia, and which is a fatal wall for Italy. It was nearly a fatal wall for ourselves on a former occasion. It depends, I suppose, on whether or not modern warfare can overcome the walls of that natural fortress. There is no access to it excepting, perhaps, by one railroad, a very few roads and mainly

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        by the courses of the torrents which fall down its precipitous walls. That is the position as I see it to-night, at the risk of being called a pro-Italian Tory, which I am not. I want more than anything else to safeguard the future of the League. I think the time has come when we should invest the League with a new view. I have already said that I shall be called a die-hard Tory, so I will come out with what I think. The right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) gave a most delightful quotation this afternoon from Dr. Johnson. May I add another from Dr. Johnson:

        "Geographers in Afric maps,

        With savage pictures filled their gaps,

        And o'er uninhabitable downs,

        Placed elephants for want of towns."

        That is a pretty true description of civilisation in Abyssinia to-day. It is the plain duty of this country to face these facts and to consider the question of suggesting, through the League, a mandate to Italy for that portion of Abyssinia which borders Eritrea and Italian Somaliland, so that by means of a mandate the Abyssinian rights could be safeguarded as they can never be safeguarded by any form of sanctions. It is a question of grasping the nettle. It is a question of the ultimate well-being of the Abyssinians themselves. I should like to touch for a moment on the fact that the Abyssinian view of slavery is not ours. We must never judge it as if it were ours. Slavery is a recognised state in Abyssinia, but in consequence there are numerous appalling difficulties in connection with the suppression of the slave trade on our side of the Abyssinian frontier. Whether or no Italy would consider such a suggestion remains to be seen, but there is nothing in the Covenant of the League of Nations which stands in the way of some sort of concrete suggestion. The League was never intended to be a machine, the League remains an ideal. It was so conceived in 1919, and the Covenant to-day contains the same ideals as it did in those beginning times. We cannot complain that there are two sides to collective security, one which means that the united action of Europe is required before, shall I say, war is allowed, the other that we cannot any longer act alone, as we have done in the past, for the policing of Europe. It is not that the League has failed; we
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        are testing the League, and we should be able, in the light of those tests, to augment its strength. We can never do so by using, it as an instrument for war.
        May I say why I consider that we have the right to go to the League of Nations with a concrete suggestion of this sort? We opposed the entry of Abyssinia into the League in 1923, a candidature which was strongly supported by France and Italy. We have never changed that viewpoint in regard to the admittance of a State which is forgetful of the world and by the world forgotten. There is another circumstance which has been passed by in the hurry of the last few days. For the last 12 or 13 years we have been trying to persuade the Abyssinians to agree to a scheme of works on Lake Tsana under which a barrage would be constructed to control this natural reservoir of the Blue Nile. Without the red dust of volcanic deposits which the Blue Nile brings down from that mighty plateau, the soil of Egypt cannot be renewed. Only the other day the Abyssinians came to the Government with a favourable proposal. I would remind the House of the action of the Government in the present circumstances. My right hon. Friend the Minister for League of Nations Affairs said, in reply to a question:
        "On 10th May the Abyssinian Government invited His Majesty's Government and the Governments of Egypt and the Sudan to send representatives to a conference at Addis Ababa with the object of concluding an agreement on this question. His Majesty's Government did not, however, wish to take any step which might aggravate the present unfortunate controversy between Italy and Abyssinia at a moment when they were using their best endeavours to secure a solution."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th July, 1935; col. 156, Vol. 304.]
        That surely is evidence of our clean-handedness. That entitles us to say that something which we had sought to get for the benefit of Egypt for the last 12 or 13 years had to be turned down when it was offered to us the other day, because we wanted to have clean hands in the matter of this negotiation.
        Miss RATHBONE: Does the hon. Lady think that it would be a good way of maintaining the authority of the League to reward Italy for a flagrant violation of the Covenant of the League by giving her a new mandate, and would Italy's threats of aggression against

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        Abyssinia be a hopeful augury for good relations between the mandatory nation and the country placed under it?
        Miss GRAVES: We are up against such facts as are likely to result in a far worse state for the Abyssinians than would befall them if they were under the guardianship of a mandate from the League of Nations. I would apologise to the Committee for this downright speech. May I ask the Committee to remember that it is the human side of the League which counts. Machinery will kill the League. If we continue to look on the League as living, and as an organism capable of expansion, there is some hope for the future peace of the world.
        8.59 p.m.
        Mr. JANNER: I shall not attempt to follow the hon. Lady in the line she has taken in her interesting speech, either in regard to the matter or the manner of the subject which she was discussing. The matter which I propose to put before the House is of extreme importance, and I hope that the Committee will give me a certain amount of indulgence in listening to me, because I feel very deeply on the subject. The League of Nations was designed as a league of peoples throughout the length and breadth of the world, understanding each others' difficulties and endeavouring, in the spirit of that understanding, to clear up all those difficulties. That ideal is something to which we can give the full strength of our help. Are we not ourselves a great League of Nations wherein all races and all creeds mix together in a common understanding and where there is no distinction drawn between persons of different race or because of the creed that a person may have adopted or into which he may have been born.
        There was a very striking illustration of that in my constituency during the Jubilee celebrations. When those celebrations were taking place there was a spontaneity of rejoicing among the Roman Catholics who form a large constituent body in my district, among the Jewish people, the Protestants and others; each section indicated that they realised that in this great Empire there is the basis of liberty, there is a basis of understanding among men which commends itself to all mankind. That is
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        why I say at this moment that I know the Committee will consider it appropriate that some reference should be made to the unhappy fate of minorities who are suffering such terrible distress and degradation in Germany. One would have hoped that when a nation was making a plea for recognition and equal treatment she would have based her claims upon her own equitable outlook and the proper treatment of her own nationals. While no one will deny the right of each nation to be granted just and reasonable rights it obviously cannot be considered out of place if a similar claim is made for civilised and humane treatment of the various communities whose destinies are controlled by the claimants. The Church, the Roman Catholic community and the Jewish community are being constantly and persistently attacked and the new paganism which is being declared by the Nazi leaders can hardly be accepted as a step in the right direction of creating good feeling between people.
        I hope the Committee will forgive me if I deal for a few moments with the lot of the Jewish people in Germany. The situation is becoming more and more burdensome and terrible for them. Speeches of a violent nature are made from time to time by the National Socialist leaders, and there can be no doubt that the people of the country are being incited to acts which must result in violence and probably in bloodshed. That this should be the fate of a body of men one of whose number, Herr Haber, literally saved the German people from complete disaster at the time of the war, is indeed a sad reflection on the misguided activities of the Nazi rulers. Thousands of Jews fought in the German Army during the Great War, as had their predecessors before them in other wars on behalf of Germany. They fought side by side with their fellow Germans. No question was raised in those times of distinction between race and race and creed and creed. No question was raised whether a man was a Roman Catholic, a Jew, or a Protestant when a padre stood at the graveside or on the field beside a dead man; he did not question whether the victim was a Jew or a Gentile. On the contrary, all stood for one common end so far as the action of the whole people was concerned. All stood side by side.

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        This new theory of race is an insult to the memory of the heroes who fought and fell. It endeavours to degrade the children and grandchildren of valiant Jewish ex-service men who fought in common with the rest of their fellows. Day by day regulations and edicts are passed, and an effort is, indeed, being made to reduce the Jewish community to that state which the Nazis themselves would have those to whom they are preaching believe it really is at present. Children in the schools are being taught a bitter hatred against young, innocent, Jewish fellow-pupils. The "Stűrmer" Press is rousing flaming passions and hatred in its readers by lying and deceitful messages. The edition of that paper, which was specially dedicated to spreading the infamous blood libel, has been followed by publication after publication of a sordid and vicious nature. This attack is not merely confined to Streicher's immediate subordinates. General Goering, at the request of Streicher, addressed a group of 200,000 recently at the Franconian Nazi Pagan Rally on the Hesselberg Hills near Niiremburg. A special fire initiation ceremony was held, at which 10,000 Hitler youths repeated a vow made by Streicher to dedicate themselves to the hatred of Jews. In the meanwhile it is necessary for them to spread propaganda throughout the world in order to explain away this apparent uncivilised action by the Nazis. Every form of propaganda attack is used, whether open or covert. No money is spared. Where the money comes from nobody knows, but in practically every country in the world this insidious propaganda is going on. In spite of the fact that no country wants it, this persistent attack on the minorities is being continued in one country 'after another. Herr Hitler himself stated in his infamous book:
        "It is not the business of propaganda to weigh the rights and wrongs of a question. Its object is to present its own side. Propaganda does not exist in order to search for truth so far as it may be favourable to opponents; nor has doctrinaire impartiality any part in what propaganda offers to the masses."
        The "Voelkischer Beobachter" recently declared that:
        "National Socialism knows no such things as impartial research. History must be written, not objectively, but in the spirit of German faith."
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        I am sure the Committee will understand that it is not an easy matter for a Jewish person himself to stand up on such a grave occasion as this to speak on these matters, but I know the Committee will appreciate that I should consider it very short of my duty, in view of the deep and bitter feelings that are being created throughout the length and breadth of the world, if I did not say the few words that I have said, in order to let those, if I may use the expression, villainous pervertors of the truth realise what is felt in this country. Let me give one more quotation. The "Jewish Chronicle" of the 5th July last contained the following report:-
        "Last week saw the beginnings of a concerted attempt to transfer to Berlin the extreme anti-Jewish feeling hitherto characteristic of Julius Streicher's realm of Franconia. Within the space of a few days numbers of Jewish shops and vendors' stands were wrecked; quantities of anti-Jewish labels stuck on shops, electric standards and elsewhere; revolting Stuermer bills plastered on trees, and placards posted up in many industrial undertakings attempting directly to incite the German working class against Jewish doctors, lawyers, and merchants. Last, but not least, Dr. Goebbels, at the Berlin Nazi district rally on Sunday, openly proclaimed a new local anti-Jewish onslaught. Writing as an eye witness, the Berlin correspondent of the 'Manchester Guardian' describes a typical case of Nazi hooliganism in the working-class district of Neukölln, where Streicher's Brownshirt followers closed down a Jewish ice-cream store. 'Crowds were standing in front of the store, which had been locked up earlier in the day,' the correspondent writes. The windows had been plastered with sheets torn out of the Stürmer containing hideous caricatures of Jews, and fastened down at the corners with printed labels bearing the words: To buy from the Jews is to be a traitor to Germany. A patrol of three uniformed Nazis walked slowly up and down the street in front of the shop with copies of the Stürmer. At each end of the street copies of the Stürmer were also on sale. I did not, however, see a single copy sold to the un-uniformed working-class people in the streets,' the writer continues. 'The ordinary people, as is customary, talked in undertones. They contented themselves chiefly with looking at the Stürmer cartoons in silence. I saw no sign that they approved of the closing of the shop. The only comment made to me was by a woman: When is this lunacy going to be stopped?'"
        I ask the same question: When is this lunacy going to be stopped? The Jewish people, who, after all, have their good and bad among them equally with every other people, claim very little, but at least they claim to be loyal to the

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        countries in which they happen to be resident and of which they happen to be citizens. For 1,000 years some of these Jewish families have been living in Germany. To-day Germany is asking, as she is rightly entitled to ask, and I do not suggest that she is not entitled to make the claim, that she should be given proper treatment; but, when she is asking for that, when she is seeking equity, she must do equity and come with clean hands. I hope that, when negotiations are taking place between this great Empire of ours and the German rulers, they will be given to understand that that type of action is abhorrent to the British people, irrespective of what race or creed they belong to, and that we expect from Germany the same consideration which she expects from us to be shown to her nationals
        9.13 p.m.
        Mr. LOFTUS: The last speaker will excuse me if I do not refer to the details of his most eloquent and moving appeal, but I have very little time at my disposal, and I want just to get in one point which I consider to be of immense importance. I have listened in this House to practically every debate on foreign affairs, and every debate makes me feel more depressed about the future of this nation and of the world. In every debate there is a sense of frustration, a feeling that all the work done by successive British Governments, all the energy and enthusiasm of such bodies as the League of Nations, all the intense desire for peace among millions of people in Europe, is breaking down, is frustrated—and that the weapon of collective security and the League has broken, or is breaking, in our hands. I feel that, if that is the case, it is possible that we may not be dealing with the real, deep cause of the troubles of the world—that there is some flaw in our proceedings, and that we must seek that missing cue to the troubles which afflict us to-day.
        Who are the nations which are potential breakers of the peace, or, at any rate, whose policy causes us disquiet? They are Germany, Italy and Japan. Are there any symptoms common to these three nations? If there are such we may get the cue to the trouble. I suggest that there are. In each case you have a country very heavily populated, and in
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        two cases a country with very slender resources for growing food. The second point is the enormous increase of population year by year—in Japan 900,000 a year, in Italy 400,000 a year, and in Germany nearly 300,000 a year. That means that these nations, whoever rules over them, can only keep up a proper standard of life if they can export their manufactured goods and services to pay for their increasing requirements of food and raw materials for their industries. Already in Germany and in Italy the standard of life has been lowered again and again because of the difficulty of importing their necessary raw materials and foodstuffs. I believe it is the fear of the lowered standard of life which has caused the dictatorships.
        We have been asked by the Secretary of State to put practical proposals forward and warned by the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) of the difficulty and danger of a back-bencher doing so. There must be a solution of this question. There are three lines of approach. I do not think the granting of colonies to these nations is going to solve their difficulty. It may assuage the pride of Germany or Italy, but it will not solve the economic difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) may say, "Establish universal Free Trade," but that is impossible. In the world to-day economic nationalism has come to stay, because it is a recognition by the backward agricultural nations that modern machine efficiency with unskilled labour enables them to produce more and more wealth. I think the third line of approach is, by possibly temporary 'measures, to establish some easily functioning system of international money. We have already begun to do so by establishing a sterling area, and the nations in the sterling area are far more prosperous and happy than those outside it. I suggest that we should fix the rate of exchange, first in the sterling areas, for two or three years and invite the other countries to come in. The second and most important thing is to establish the principle that an exporting nation is paid for its goods in the currency of the importing nation. If you established that principle, I think you would solve the greater part of the economic difficulties of the world. At present international trade is hindered by the fear of nations getting more and more

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        into debt and by the fear of their currency being broken and battered down. We have in the world to-day vast masses of food and raw material. We read of some of it being destroyed from time to time.
        Here are these three great Powers which are likely to give trouble, whose policy has to-day caused trouble, with rapidly increasing populations, with a deficiency in essential raw materials—Italy with no coal, Germany with no iron—and here are these abundant raw materials in the world. I feel that, as a practical step to get a peace atmosphere, some such measures as I have not had time to outline would do more even than the success of the Disarmament Conference. I feel that that is the key. You have three contented Powers in the League, France, with a vast colonial Empire, ourselves, with a great colonial Empire, and Russia self-contained. There is no fear that we cannot get raw materials. The rulers of Japan and Germany are in constant fear that the machine Rill starve for want of imports. If the machine starves, the people starve, and, if the people starve, Governments crash in bloodshed and civil war. I may be told that these hurried proposals I put forward are not practicable. I believe they are the only practicable approach. These three nations have the feeling that their position in the world is not just. We have to rectify that injustice. We have to give them the feeling that they will have access to the raw materials of the world in abundance, and, if we do that, we can establish a League of Nations on a foundation of justice, a League to which individual nations will be prepared to surrender part of their sovereign rights, and a League which will succeed in preserving the world from war. If we neglect that economic aspect, I believe that disaster will fall upon us and upon the world.
        9.21 p.m.
        Captain McEWEN: I should like, in the first place, to congratulate the Secretary of State on his speech. The times are undoubtedly out of joint, and the right hon. Gentleman may well be justified in crying out on the unkind fate which calls upon him to put them right. I have little doubt that, given time, he will be able, we all hope with success, to cope with the new job that he has undertaken. I believe with the right
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        hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), who made a very striking speech, that the speech of the Secretary of State will have a very considerable effect abroad when it is read to-morrow. I agree also with what the right hon. Gentleman said with regard to the wider sphere. He said, if I understood him rightly, that he believed that what this country should do was to go to Geneva and state publicly that we adhere to our obligations under the system of collective security, and then ask the other members of the League, which in fact amount to France, "What are you going to do about it?" It seems to me that there are two alternatives. In the first place France may say, "No, thank you," in which case in all probability the League fades out altogether. On the other hand, France may say, "Yes, we will come in with you," in which case equally the people of this country are going to get somewhat of a shock, because they will find themselves let in certainly for a kind of war.
        I am primarily, and always have been, concerned for the maintenance of peace, and of the League of Nations, because I have believed, and still believe, that it is a means whereby that peace can be maintained. If by any chance it should so happen that the League, owing to actions outside the scope of her own powers, should in its present form disappear, we in this country would certainly have to continue to work for the maintenance of peace. It is no good the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) to say that we have in effect a stranglehold upon France, or saying to her that if she did not support us in this matter we on a subsequent occasion, if she were attacked by Germany, would not come to her support, because that simply is not the case. We are perfectly well aware, and we might as well face the fact, that if there were any question of Germany attacking the Channel ports again we should find ourselves in exactly the same position that we did in 1914.
        As I see it, the greater part of the disquieting facts of the international situation to-day are merely symptoms of one underlying misapprehension, which is that we can obtain all that we want in foreign affairs by ourselves, and without the wholehearted co-operation of France. I know very well that the

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        popular view is rather that by keeping our freedom of action and indulging in opportunist and, if necessary, unilateral agreements, we shall get our aims. While it is perfectly true, and should never be forgotten, that in international affairs this country is far more often right than any other country in the world—our understanding of such matters geographically as well as for historical reasons being infinitely keener in these matters than other people's—yet if Europe and the world are to achieve peace and security, in my opinion it is by Anglo-French co-operation that they will do so. I cannot elaborate that point, and I will conclude by saying that I would impress most earnestly on the Secretary of State at the outset of his undertaking the importance of having as the very basis of our foreign policy the closest and most continuous understanding with France. After having consolidated that, I can assure him that all other things will be added unto him.
        9.27 p.m.
        Mr. MORGAN JONES: I confess that after having listened to most of the Debate to-day I have gained little other than a sense of great despondency at the condition of affairs which we have to contemplate in the world to-night. Were it not for two speeches my mind would be overwhelmed with a sense of dismay. One of the speeches was that delivered by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus). He, too, confessed to a sense of dejection, and I think that sense of dejection must be universal in the House. He spoke of the sense of frustration which is present in the minds of all of us, but he gave one justification for feeling some sense of hope when he directed our attention, so properly, to what underlies so many of these international difficulties and complexities, namely, the economic issues that lie at the foundation of them. I agree with the hon. Gentleman as to much that he said concerning the urgent cry of some countries for a greater place for their people to earn their living more fully and more completely than is now obtainable by them. It is true that Japan's population is pressing for more room to live, and whether his remedy is acceptable or otherwise is immaterial for the moment. It is right that he should point to the fact that we will not be
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        able to restore peace to the world until we have examined afresh the economic problem with which the world is confronted. [Interruption, due to light failure.]
        In the face of this new perplexity I was never more moved to pray for light than I am at this moment—if I may venture to trust my memory I will do my best until light comes from elsewhere. In the course of our discussions this afternoon one thing has emerged. I think I should be right if I said that everybody this afternoon has been very concerned as to what the answer to this question shall be: Where exactly does our own country, indeed the world, stand in relation to the League of Nations and its future? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), in the most interesting and attractive speech which he delivered, said truly that the peril to peace at this moment is greater than since the end of the Great War. I do not think that any Member in the House will deny that proposition. It is self-evident. Indeed, the interest and the anxious attention devoted to this problem in this Committee to-day is ample proof of the fact that deep in the minds of us all is this apprehension as to what is to be the future of peace in the world.
        I wonder if hon. Members will forgive me if I recall this, because it is important to recall it. It is not 20 years ago yet since young people in the world were invited to shed their blood in defence of the principle of the sanctity of agreements. It was held, and held quite rightly, that when an international treaty was violated, that became in effect a crime against civilisation, and in order to vindicate that principle millions of people in all parts of the world rallied to the forces of the various countries; and as they went statesmen in all parts of the world uttered one pledge. I remind you of it this evening. It was this: "Never again." And when statesmen in all countries, on both belligerent sides, used these words they were pledging themselves to redeem that promise the moment war had passed from our minds.
        I am prepared to admit that within certain limitations, which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs indicated to us this afternoon, an attempt was made to fashion an instrument so that that pledge might be

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        redeemed. As a consequence all, or at any rate most, nations of the world became members of the League of Nations. You cannot be a member of a League of that sort without in the course of time becoming committed to covenants, pacts, understandings, agreements, treaties, call them what you will, and the question that arises in this discussion is: Are the covenants, agreements, pacts into which we have entered sacrosanct, as was the Treaty in respect of the violation of Belgium? If so—and I believe the answer would universally be, "Yes, they are sacrosanct"—then the question is how far are we actually being loyal to commitments in respect of various covenants and pacts by our conduct in the course of the last year or two within the League of Nations?
        I must ask this question. I do not ask it particularly for a party advantage, but I make the point because I think that it is justified. Why is it that in the last four short years the authority of the League of Nations has so obviously declined? It has almost become, to our great regret, a thing of derision or of despair, and it is not good for the world that such a fate should overcome the only alternative there is to the method of war of settling international disputes. I am not so sure—and I hope that the Foreign Secretary will forgive my saying this—that this followers, or those who are intense believers in the League of Nations, will be excessively grateful to him for the tone of some of his remarks in the course of his speech this afternoon. I have no doubt that later on in our proceedings we shall have another presentation of the point of view of the Government. That is one of the advantages of having two Foreign Secretaries, a diarchic system, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) put it. This afternoon we had the Government in working clothes, hobnailed boots and all, and this evening we shall have the Government in ceremonial dress, no doubt, presenting a more acceptable view of the international commitments of the Government.
        My main complaint against the Government is that they do not seem to be able to make up their mind as to what their attitude should constantly be in respect of the League. I will give one or two illustrations of this. Let us take the Anglo-German Agreement as a case
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        in point. May I say, first, that I did not quite understand what the Foreign Secretary meant when he said that it always had been understood that the naval question was always treated as a thing apart. If that is the point of view of the Government, it is a pretty perilous one, because the whole question of armaments, naval, military and air, are all part and parcel of the same problem, and it would be a fatal thing if we, because we happen to be a naval Power primarily, should insist upon regarding the naval problem as something entirely different from other problems of armaments on land and in the air. The right hon. Gentleman said that experts had assured him that the Anglo-German Naval Agreement was safe for the Empire. I wonder if those same experts assured him that it was equally safe for the world. It may be safe for the Empire, but I wonder if it is equally safe for the world.
        The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping quite properly advanced a legitimate argument against the conduct of the Government in this matter. We agreed with Germany that there is to be a certain proportion—100 to 35—and we permit thereby an open violation by Germany of the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, and we permit it of our own volition. It was done within a very short time indeed of the meeting of some three Powers two or three weeks before.
        Let me come back to the question of security for the world. Can it be denied that one of the possible effects of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement is that complete mastery is granted to Germany in naval matters within the confines of the Baltic? What would the Government say if another member of the League of Nations, namely, Russia came to them and said, "Your agreement with Germany now places our naval position in jeopardy"? What would you say? You have no answer at all. I do not know that Russia will seek naval increases within the confines of the Baltic, but if she did you have no answer at all whereby you can logically argue against it. More than that, what is to be the position of France in this matter? For I believe that France and Russia have a very close understanding. It may not amount to an alliance, but France has entered into an understanding with Russia because of her apprehensions

        607
        about Germany. Will not her apprehensions now be increased, and may not she therefore argue that, "since you permitted a certain naval establishment to Germany by this agreement, you must permit a consequential increase in our naval armaments." If that be so, I suggest that, while the right hon. Gentleman may be entitled to argue that it may be good for the Empire, it is thoroughly bad for the world at large.
        I come to another case which occurred within a very short time of the meeting at Stresa referred to this afternoon. On what possible ground of logic or justification can the Government argue that they were entitled to go to Stresa and, in common with two other representative nations, denounce Germany for violating the Treaty of Versailles by announcing conscription, when within a few weeks they enter into this private arrangement with Germany, also in violation of the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. You have no ground on which to denounce Germany on the one hand if you proceed to do the same thing a comparatively short time afterwards. That shows that the Government do not know what their attitude ought to be in regard to the League of Nations.
        The Government supporters a year or two ago used to throw scorn upon us for calling attention to what was happening in the Far East. The present Prime Minister, on the public platform, complained that we were accusing himself and his friends of wanting war. His friends did not hesitate to accuse us of wanting war when we called attention to the Far East. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who said so?"] Who said so? Over and over again in this House we were accused of wanting to go to war with Japan. It was not true. We never have wanted to go to war with Japan or with anyone else. What we have asked is this, that since we are members of the League of Nations we should regard our covenants with others within the League as just as binding as we told millions of young men in 1914 to regard the Treaty of Belgium as binding. But the Government will not do that, and the result is that not merely Manchukuo but Jehol and even Mongolia itself are being threatened by the machinations of Japanese agents. All these things, the result of indifference to our commitments in the
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        League of Nations, may mean the complete destruction, to put it in a selfish way, of our trade relationships with that part of the Far East.
        It is time that the Government made up their minds what is to be their attitude in relation to the League. I do not see the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) in his place. He may be there for all that I know; if so, I cannot see him. He made great play with the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs about quoting the Stresa Declaration. He asked: "What would you do?" and he anticipated the answer by saying: "If you meant anything at all, you could only have meant war." That is his accusation against the right hon. Gentleman. May I return to the question? What did his supporters mean by the Stresa Declaration? Did they mean anything by it, or were they speaking with their tongues in their cheeks? The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs read out the important phrase from the Stresa Declaration to-day, to the effect that the three Powers concerned agreed to take action in certain eventualities. Therefore, the right hon. Member for West Birmingham has no right to accuse other people of being insincere when his own friends and his leaders committed themselves to a Declaration that in certain eventualities they would apply themselves to certain action against any aggressive power. The Lord President of the Council keeps shaking his head, or he seems to be doing. He did not take the trouble of denying that statement when it was read out. He was conspicuously silent at the time. Why is he so garrulous now? Why did he not speak when that document was quoted? His silence must be taken as an admission that it was an accurate reading of the document. Does he deny that it was an accurate reading? I ask again, was it an accurate reading from the document? There is no answer. We need more candles on that side of the House.
        The trouble is, that the Government cannot make up their mind what their attitude should be in regard to the League of Nations. They were too late in China. They were too late in Germany. They are almost too late again in regard to Abyssinia. The reason is pretty plain. The Government are prepared to be vigorous and assertive

        609
        with respect to smaller nations, but let some big bully come along, speaking blatantly enough, and the right hon. Gentleman and his friends quickly run away. The consequence is that any statesman in Europe to-night or in the world, if he be nominally an adherent to the League of Nations, can always be sure of getting away with it so long as he speaks in sufficiently emphatic terms. We were accused this afternoon of not being sufficiently constructive in our ideas. That is not a new accusation. I want to put this proposition to the right hon. Gentleman opposite. There can be no League of Nations worth mentioning unless all the members inside the League enjoy complete equality the one with the other. When I say equality I do not mean equality in armaments but I mean that each individual member inside the League should be regarded as equally important and of equal authority inside the League.
        But the moment one uses the word "equality," people have difficulty about Germany. The trouble is that equality in regard to Germany has been wrongly granted. You can grant equality in armaments either by rearmament or by disarmament. The method of disarmament was the method of the Covenant. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs reminded us of the pledge made by Clemenceau on behalf of the Allies in that respect. It was the method implicit in the Covenant. In spite of that, however, our own Government, in common with others, have taken the line of granting equality in rearmament, and we say that equality in rearmament will lead to rivalry in armaments in various parts of the world and will lead to inevitable disaster through the medium of war.
        Let me put this question to the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for League of Nations Affairs. Is it impossible for them to bring pressure to bear so that there may be a reassembly once again of the Disarmament Conference at Geneva, under the same aegis as before, the League of Nations. If you like, begin de novo. Scrap the previous discussions if you like, but at any rate give the world evidence of the belief that you really have not given up the idea of disposing of this dreadful instrument of death in the world—war. The Prime Minister told
        610
        us two years ago that in his judgment the hope of the world lay with the young of the world. That is abundantly true. In this country to-night there are millions of young men who are feeling apprehensive as to what the present trend of events may portend for them and their future. The Foreign Secretary said this afternoon that the key to the situation still remains the League of Nations. Let us make quite sure that that key does not become blood rusted, because a blood rusted key will fail to open the portals of the future to the young men of to-day.
        9.56 p.m.
        Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH: May I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) on a very remarkable performance. It is clear that he speaks by some inner light and has no need of external illumination. I am grateful to the electricians of the House for saving me from a similar trial. Everybody is conscious of the intense seriousness of the international situation, and nobody would desire to embarras the Foreign Secretary, who has so recently assumed office, in his conduct of these difficult problems. In selecting this subject for to-day's Debate we on these benches had no idea of causing him any embarrassment or passing any vote of censure, but we did so rather with the object of obtaining illumination in the form of a statement from the Government. Every one will agree it was highly desirable that such a statement should be made, because the whole face of foreign affairs has been changing so rapidly that it has been almost impossible to keep up with it.
        We have the statement, and I should like to congratulate the Foreign Secretary on the scope of his speech and on its universal benevolence. He travelled all over the world, touched at nearly every port, and had a kind word to say in every one. I wish that he had added to his benevolence a little more precision on one or two points. The hon. Member for Caerphilly was rather unfair in complaining about his hobnailed boots. To me the Foreign Secretary seemed rather to be wearing skates, on which he is quite used to gliding easily from one point to another with great rapidity. The first point on which I could have desired more precision is with regard to the Air Pact. When the Government, through the present Prime Minister, made an

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        announcement of its intentions to increase the Air Force it received support which it does not always receive from hon. Members on these benches. I have been criticised widely in my constituency and subjected, indeed, to a certain amount of misrepresentation on the ground of that vote. I do not repent it in the least, but I would recall this, that we gave that vote because of the new fact which had appeared in the international situation. That new fact was the air fleet of Germany. That was not a programme to be met by another programme, but a fleet in being, which could only be met, as long as it existed, by another fleet.
        But that was not the only new fact which appeared at that time. Another fact, equally important, was the remarkable speech made by Herr Hitler, in the course of which he announced his willingness to come to an agreement which would have resulted in limitation. We ask that these two facts should always be borne in mind together. If we are to go on building against this air fleet in being we should also take diplomatic steps to meet the offer of Herr Hitler, in order that this expansion of armaments, which may not be limited to the present proposals, but which may go on indefinitely, might be brought to a conclusion. What we had hoped for from the Government to-night was some definite information as to the steps they are taking to meet Herr Hitler, as he has every reason to suppose would be made from the Prime Minister's speech. All we know from the speech of the Foreign Secretary is that nothing has been done yet. We do not know from the Foreign Secretary whether any plans have been made for doing anything in the future. We have been told the reason for the delay; that France desires to have the whole matter treated at once. Are we going to regard that as an insuperable objection? Are we going to accept that as an impediment to further progress? If that is so, then the race in air armaments has begun, and the prospect which we have hoped for of limiting it to reasonable proportions has practically vanished from the horizon. I should not like to believe that this is the case, and I hope that the Minister for League of Nations Affairs will be able to give us some further information on this point.
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        I come to another point on which we have not been given that exact information which we desire. When we come to Abyssinia we are on common ground in this House on a good many points. We are not concerned with the merits of the dispute between Italy and Abyssinia. There may be a great deal to be said for the Italian case, and we have no business at present to say that there is not. It may be that it was a great pity that Abyssinia was ever admitted to the League, but that is not the point now. Abyssinia was admitted to the League, it became a member of that great international association, and up to the present moment it has behaved according to the rules. It is threatened with war, and has demanded the intervention of the League to protect it against another member. We have to decide what we are going to do about it. All we have heard from the Foreign Secretary is what we are not going to do. He was quite informative about that. But what he said on that point is worth saying.
        Nobody here fails to recognise that the League exists to make collective decisions, and that the imposition of collective sanctions does not impose on its members any obligation to undertake individual knight errantry for the rescue of the Abyssinian maid. But we have to consider whether within our obligations to the League we are prepared to play our part. What are we going to do? If anybody asks me what I should do—it is a reasonable question—I would merely refer them to the remarkable speech made to-day by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain). If that statement had been made from the Front Bench, I should have been completely satisfied, and I shall be glad to hear from the Minister for League of Nations Affairs whether he can endorse the statement which has come from an eminent previous Foreign Secretary.
        It is no small matter that is at stake; it is not the future of Abyssinia only; it is the future of the League and of the collective system which we have tried patiently to build up, which has had its successes and its failures, and which, I believe, still remains the hope of mankind. I would say to my right hon. Friend that, unless something is done in this matter, he is in grave danger of

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        finding himself literally a Minister without a portfolio, because the subject matter of his office may well have gone. If that happens it will be a very bad prospect for the peace of the world. I do not complain, and I want to make this clear, of any effort the Government may have made to try and settle this dispute. If they were parting with territory of ours, even so I believe that with our resources we could have afforded it, and to have given an example to the world that we were ready to make sacrifices for peace would have been all to the good. Unfortunately, all that we know is that the offer failed. It has been suggested that it was bound to fail. I confess that I agree to some extent with the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), that the precise method of presenting an offer of this kind was not all that could be desired. In saying that I am not for a moment suggesting anything against the Minister for League of Nations Affairs.
        I am perhaps being rather reactionary in having a preference in some matters for the employment of the old methods of diplomacy. It seems to me that this kind of peripatetic diplomacy from one capital to another is open to certain objections. It is unfair to the right hon. Gentleman himself. If he fails, as anybody may fail, we only know the fact of his failure. He is not at liberty to tell us what he said to Mussolini, and what Mussolini said to him, though I have no doubt it would be very entertaining to listen to. We do not know the manner in which he batted. We only know the fact on the score sheet that he was bowled. It seems to me to have this other objection, that foreign capitals get used to dealing with a particular ambassador, but that after having the same Minister going from capital to capital, making reassuring statements in Moscow, Warsaw and Paris, they may be all pleased with the words they hear but they must have some wonder as to what was said in the other capitals. It seems like the case of a witness who has made a statement to the solicitor on both sides and whom neither is particularly confident of calling. This method of approaching foreign affairs may be overdone, and I think in some respects the older method is preferable.
        I want to refer to the Anglo-German Naval Pact. I fully realise the motives
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        which caused the Government to close with that offer when they were faced with a prospect of almost infinite rearmament in various directions as a result of the decision of Germany to ignore the Treaty of Versailles. They had the opportunity to limit that rearmament in a particular sphere, and they had reason to believe that if they did not close with it at once the offer might not be presented again. The reasons for closing with that offer in those circumstances were very strong indeed. But I must express my great regret that this could not have been done without causing a serious misunderstanding between ourselves and France. I do not know whether it could have been avoided, or whether it was inevitable, but I desire to record my conviction that on a good understanding between ourselves and France, the peace of the world still rests, and that there can be no greater danger than a misunderstanding in that respect. We have criticised French statesmen in the past. We believe that since the War they have missed opportunities. French statesmen doubtless have criticised us. But behind these disagreements there does lie, I believe, a much broader basis of real agreement. We have the common experience of our trials in the last War. We have a form of democratic government which is the same in principle. We have the same admiration for liberty and freedom of speech, and I believe that these bonds of union should be strong enough to survive any temporary disagreement. If they are not, I tremble for the future of the world.
        The worst thing I can imagine is that we should drift or be forced into a new and unnatural alliance. Already it is said in Europe—I am not putting it higher than that—that we are drifting into the same camp with Germany. The Government's answer will be, of course, that we are not in any camp except the League of Nations. But even to be supposed to be in the same camp with certain Powers against others makes it easier ultimately to arrive. If you find that your approaches to Berlin and Warsaw are always smooth and cordial, and that your approaches to Paris and Rome are stiff and cold, it is difficult not to drift insensibly into one camp from the other. That is a danger which I should desire this nation to avoid. I admire the German people, and I desire to be friends

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        with them if only I could find them, but it is rather difficult in these days to find the German people behind the German Government. Any political alliance which put us in the same camp with Germany against other nations would accord with no British interest, would satisfy no British aspiration, and would make no contribution to the peace of the world.
        I have never before intervened in a Debate on foreign affairs, but I feel that I can voice the inarticulate anxieties of the man in the street who also does not know very much about these things, and so frequently is not even allowed to choose the kind of war that he would be killed in. He is not consulted on foreign affairs, but finds that he must pay the price of any mistake. I am much more afraid of unconscious drift than I am of any deliberate error of policy on the part of our Government or any other. I believe this Debate will have been fully justified if, by a combination of the speech of the Foreign Secretary And the speech which the Minister for League of Nations Affairs is to make, and by the remarkable utterances which have occurred in between, they may find something to allay these great anxieties.
        10.13 p.m.
        The MINISTER for LEAGUE of NATIONS AFFAIRS (Mr. Eden): I feel sure that the Committee will have appreciated the manifest sincerity of the speech to which we have just listened. If this is the first occasion on which he has spoken on foreign affairs, I am sure I am expressing the view of all Members when I say that I hope we shall have opportunities of hearing the hon. and learned Member again. I should like also to associate myself with the congratulations which have been paid to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) on his truly remarkable performance in speaking through the night, a feat which was truly worthy of our Parliamentary traditions and which I trust will be observed overseas. This Debate has ranged over a wide number of subjects, and I propose to confine myself to trying to meet criticism and answer questions upon three main topics—the Naval Agreement, the Air Pact, and the Italo-Abyssinian dispute. I will also try to meet the criticisms of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr.
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        Lloyd George) with reference to the Stresa Conference and the Geneva resolutions which followed it. I would like to give one reassurance to my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). He was anxious about internal affairs at the Foreign Office, and was afraid we should suffer from diarchy. Perhaps his long association with the India Bill has resulted in his being obsessed with diarchy. In actual fact, no such system exists and no such system is contemplated. There are no two Kings of Brentford on one throne. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is king, and I am very proud and privileged to be allowed to work with him.
        May I now turn to the subjects which have been raised, taking first the Anglo-German Naval Agreement? Let me make it clear that His Majesty's Government do not admit that the conclusion of that Agreement is contrary to the principle of co-operation which was embodied in the London communiqué of 3rd February, and in the Stresa Resolution, to which the Government remain firmly attached. There has been no question, I ask the Committee to appreciate, of our making it possible for Germany to do something which she would not otherwise have done. On the contrary, the purpose of this step has been to circumscribe, by agreement with Germany, the ultimate consequences of the unilateral decision to which Germany had already begun to give effect.
        His Majesty's Government have always maintained—and here I answer the hon. Member for Caerphilly—and the late Labour Government also maintained, that naval armaments differ in certain respects from land and air armaments in that naval armaments are already subject to and limited by the Naval Agreements previously entered into at Washington and London. But clearly we could not admit—and this is the point which I wish the Committee to appreciate—that such discussions, affecting the future of those agreements which are shortly to expire, could be held up and the possibility of their favourable outcome deliberately deferred pending the conclusion of an international agreement in regard to land and air armaments. It was our intention and purpose to press on with all three branches of this necessarily inter-connected subject, but we regard this Anglo-German Naval Agreement as an essential preparatory step

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        and a direct contribution to "the conclusion"—to quote from another communiqué—"of agreements regarding armaments generally." That was recommended in the London communiqué of 3rd February and reaffirmed at Stresa.
        Let us be clear what the criticism is. The criticism is, first, that there has been a lack of co-operation and that the parties to the London and Stresa Resolutions must not conclude bilateral agreements for the purpose of advancing a general settlement. That criticism that we must not make treaties or agreements, two by two, applies equally to the Franco-Russian Treaty. In fact, however, we have ourselves no desire or intention whatever to criticise that Treaty, nor have we done so, nor shall we do so. Furthermore, so far as naval armaments are concerned, Germany is prepared from now onwards to exchange, on a reciprocal basis with other naval Powers, particulars in regard to dates of laying down and characteristics of future warships, even in advance of the conclusion of a general naval treaty. We may be sure that this result would never have been achieved without the prior conclusion of the Anglo-German Agreement.
        Then, the criticism is sometimes made abroad that we are chiefly concerned to reach agreement on naval armaments because the sea is the element which most directly concerns us; in other words, that our motives have been frankly selfish. Let me answer this charge by putting a question as to our own attitude. Should we object if other Powers concluded similar arrangements, in regard to land and air armaments, with Germany; arrangements similar to that which we have just concluded in respect of naval armaments? The answer is, surely, that, far from objecting, we should regard such separate agreements as an important step in the direction of peace and appeasement, provided, of course, that our own liberty of action remained unimpaired, just as the liberty of action of other foreign Powers would remain entirely unimpaired by the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, and provided that the purpose of that agreement was to facilitate the general settlement referred to in the London communiqué of the 3rd February.
        I had a personal experience in this matter which I should like to recall to
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        the Committee. In February of last year I was instructed by His Majesty's Government to go to Berlin, one of those journeys that have caused anxiety, to see the German Chancellor and to discuss with him the proposals which we had laid down in January of last year, to attempt to secure agreement upon them, and to find out from him what was Germany's attitude to our own memorandum of the 29th January, and generally to learn what proposals he was prepared to accept in respects of armaments limitation. At that time Germany was prepared to agree to a 10 years' convention, to an air force which, for the period of that convention, would not exceed 50 per cent. of that of France, and to an army on a parity with France, at a figure of 300,000 men. The French Government at that time, for reasons which I do not criticise—they may have been good reasons, but for whatever reasons—rejected that offer. Is not that an arrangement upon which we, all of us, would be only too anxious to agree to-day? Believe me, there is no policy which is more costly, both to the taxpayer and to peace, than a policy of missing the bus.
        It may be argued that the size of the programme which it is now revealed that Germany is already engaged upon is an argument against entering into fresh agreements with her; but surely the reverse is the case. The very fact that Germany is shown to have rearmed so much already is the strongest possible argument for accepting her offer to limit the future course of her naval armaments. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs instanced the growth of the German army, and I fully agree with him as to the seriousness of that expansion. Germany now asks and is organising an army of 550,000 men. In February last year she was prepared to agree to an army of 300,000 men. Would it not have been a tragedy for this country and the world had the history of land armaments been repeated on the sea? I come to another argument which has been made. It has been suggested by the hon. Member for Caerphilly that our action was calculated to diminish the prestige of the League of Nations. I cannot, I confess, follow him in that argument.
        This agreement which we have concluded is, in our judgment, an essential step to the general limitation of naval

        619
        armaments. Had it not been taken by His Majesty's Government, all foreign Powers, wherever they may be situated must have suffered from the race in naval armaments which would have resulted. As it is, other naval Powers know the limits of German naval expansion as regulated by this agreement, and they can regulate their programmes accordingly. One of the primary purposes of the League of Nations is to limit and, if possible, to reduce world armaments, and the League can only gain in influence and authority if, as the result of this agreement, which we regard as a useful contribution to a general settlement between all the naval Powers, the threatened race in naval armaments can be prevented. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Limehouse and the hon. Member for Caerphilly severely criticised this agreement. They said that they could not welcome it, and I want to ask a question of His Majesty's Opposition. Are we to understand from the speeches to which we have listened today that the Socialist party as a whole is opposed to this agreement? Would it have wished us to reject this offer for the limitation of naval armaments? I pause for an answer. I think the House can draw its own conclusions.
        I turn to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), which, I think, the Committee appreciated as fully responding to the appeal of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary for constructive criticism. He has asked us certain questions in connection with the Air Pact which I will attempt to answer. He complained that the Government were wrong to admit the inter-connection of the various problems mentioned in the communiqué of the 3rd February. His reasoning was that what we have done with naval armaments we should do in the air, and that we should do what we could piecemeal because in the past we had failed by trying to do too much. Some of us may have sympathy with the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman in that respect, and we may appreciate his point of view, but it is necessary to understand the position of others. There are certain Powers which definitely take the view that these subjects are interdependent, and that an agreement on any one of them can only be reached simultaneously with an agreement upon all the others.
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        If we deny that thesis, the possibility of arriving at an air pact at all is lost.
        Pacts by their very name require participation, and if we are to insure participation we have to go some way to meet the various points of view upon this subject. That is exactly the object of the negotiations upon which we are engaged—and they are very difficult—at the present time. There have been exchanges of views with the Powers concerned on two matters affecting an Air Pact. The first of these is the general procedure for the negotiation of an air pact and the relation of that procedure to the negotiations on the other questions—the Eastern Pact, the Danubian Pact and so forth—which are under consideration. That is one set of subjects about which we are now in negotiation with other Governments. The second matter on which the views of Powers have been exchanged is the general form which the Air Pact might assume. Those exchanges are now being actively pursued, through the diplomatic channel, I hasten to assure the Committee. They are as yet by no means complete. I regret that I cannot at this stage give the House any further news upon them save to answer the question of the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) as to supervision. It is certainly our view that any air pact that can be negotiated will require some form of supervision, the form of which will have to be determined in the course of the negotiations.
        Now I will say a word about the speech of the right hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee). I confess that I somewhat resented that speech. It seemed to me to be one long sneer. The right hon. Gentleman said that we have reduced the League to a farce. He said we had made no attempts to fulfil our pledges. He said we had run away on every occasion. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, Has the Government run away from its extremely arduous responsibilities as a member of the League in respect of Danzig? My right hon. Friend performed the most important task of rapporteur when he was Foreign Secretary. Has the Government run away from its responsibilities in the Bolivia-Paraguay dispute? Was it not we who proposed the embargo on arms and saw it was carried through? Is it not now generally admitted that it was in part a result of that embargo that this conflict

        621
        was at last brought to an end? May I remind the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs that though it is quite true that the agreement now reached was reached as the result of the intervention of the South American States, and we welcome it, that that intervention was on the basis of the work which the League Committee had already previously done, and the terms of agreement they have reached are almost identical with the terms the League Committee had suggested for a settlement a little time ago.
        Did we run away, were we false to our obligations, when we proposed the formation of an international police force to go to the Saar? Again, did this Government neglect all its League responsibilities when it instructed its representative to act as rapporteur in the dispute between Hungary and Yugoslavia; or were we false to our obligations last May when the Abyssinian dispute came before the Council of the League? Can it really be said of us that we are pursuing an Imperialist Power Policy when we have offered a contribution of a part of British territory towards the solution of an international dispute? The right hon. Gentleman complained that the speech of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was not the speech of a supporter of the League. If he will say that he will say anything. The essence of my right hon. Friend's speech was that membership of the League of Nations is the key of our foreign policy.
        I turn from the right hon. Member for Limehouse to the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. I, in common, I think, with all the Members of this House of my generation, the war generation, have a very sincere respect and admiration for the services which the right hon. Gentleman rendered to this country at a time when we were overseas. That we shall never forget, and for that reason I regret the more the contribution which he made to the Debate to-day. Since eighteenth century literature is in fashion to-day I recall a quotation from the "Tatler" which I have recently read—the old "Tatler":
        "How often have I wished, for the good of the nation, that several good Politicians would take any pleasure in feeding ducks. I look upon an able statesman out of business like a huge whale that will endeavour to overturn the ship unless he has an empty cask to play with."
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        Now I come to the details of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. First, there was a reference to the Stresa Conference and the Geneva resolution that followed. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that at Geneva it was said that economic and financial sanctions should be applied. Then he said to us, "What are you going to do about it?" With all respect to him, the Geneva Resolution said nothing of the sort. What the Geneva Resolution did was to register the breach of an agreement. The first item of the Resolution declared that Germany
        "has failed in the duty which lies upon all the members of the international community to respect the undertakings which they have contracted, and condemns any unilateral repudiation of international obligations."
        That is a registration of a breach of which I should not have thought anybody in this House could complain.
        What happened at Stresa and Geneva? The Council was asked precisely the same question as the right hon. Gentleman was asked this afternoon: "As this has happened, what are you going to do about it?" The right hon. Gentleman did not answer the question but the Council of the League had to answer, and it tried to answer. It has answered by attempting to deal with the problem of economic and financial sanctions. The Committee will know that there are in existence to-day several points of view about sanctions. There are people who say: "You can enforce economic and financial sanctions without the danger of war." There are others who say that "You cannot enforce economic and financial sanctions unless you are prepared to go to war." There is a third point of view which says: "I do not care whether you enforce economic and financial sanctions or not, but they are no good." It is possible, however, that they might be useful, and an examination has been undertaken by the Council of the League against any future breach of treaty. That work is now actually taking place, and the Committee of Thirteen which was then set up is now in operation.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is in accordance with the Resolution.
        Mr. EDEN: It is carrying out the Geneva Resolution, but it is not what the right hon. Gentleman said earlier this afternoon.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I actually quoted from the Resolution one of the three items. A Committee composed of—the right hon. Gentleman says of 13—is set up for the purpose of—
        "rendering the covenant more effective in the organisation of collective security and to define in particular the economic and financial measures which might be applied, should, in the future, a State, whether a member of the League of Nations or not, endanger peace by the unilateral repudiation of its international obligations."
        That is the third point.
        Mr. EDEN: The point I wish to make to the Committee, and which the right hon. Gentleman did not make, is that Stresa did not decide that we should apply economic and financial sanctions.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Geneva did.
        Mr. EDEN: Geneva did not decide that we should apply them. Geneva said: "We will see whether we can apply them." There is all the difference in the world. There can be no accusation against this Government of not knowing its own mind if it initiates an inquiry of that kind. He cannot make any complaint that we have not already applied sanctions when we have ourselves set up an inquiry in order that that examination may be carried out.
        I pass from that to another of the statements of the right hon. Gentleman. We had again this afternoon the old story—I am sorry, but it is as old story, and a fabrication—about bombing. That discussion, I would remind the Committee, arose out of the Draft Convention submitted by His Majesty's Government, the Draft Convention to which the right hon. Gentleman rightly referred as the MacDonald plan. That article is one out of 96 articles which the Convention contained.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Article 34.
        Mr. EDEN: Article 34, but Article 35 is an even more important article. It says:
        "The Permanent Disarmament Commission—set up under another article of the Convention—shall immediately devote itself to the working out of the best possible schemes providing for (a) the complete abolition of military and naval aircraft, which must be dependent upon the effective supervision of civil aviation to prevent its misuse for military purposes."
        624
        The reservation, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman, did not take up any considerable part of the time of the Conference—actually four hours out of some three years' work. The truth is that this question of bombing has not been treated by any country just as a simple proposition: Will you or will you not abolish bombing? The question was related to all kinds of other factors. Some countries related it to the abolition of aircraft carriers, others to the control of civil aviation, others still to the abolition of bombers. All countries related it to some condition, and I would draw the attention of the Committee to the position as it was revealed many months later in November. This is the report of the Rapporteur of the Air Committee, who was asked to go round the various nations to discover what the chances were of getting some agreement upon this problem of air armaments and the abolition of bombing. This is a summary from his report—an official document—made in a Progress Report to the Bureau of the Conference on the 24th November. Time had then elapsed, and, if we had done any harm, it would have shown itself. That is why I want the Committee to appreciate this summary: Several delegates refused to take up any definite position in the matter of air armaments, taking the view that these problems could only be solved in the light of the general political situation and of the questions raised in other spheres. While the United Kingdom delegation announced that, in the event of general agreement on the Convention, the police bombing reservation would be withdrawn, the Japanese delegation made its consent subject to the abolition of aircraft carriers, the French would not discuss air armaments separately, and demanded notification of construction programmes as well as supervision, the Italians refuesed to consider any amendment to the United Kingdom draft Convention.
        That shows clearly that at that stage there was no thought in the mind of the Rapporteur that it was this entirely insignificant little reservation that was holding up the work. The truth is, and I must say this to the Committee in all sincerity, since I was there throughout these negotiations, that that reservation never had the smallest international significance. The only importance it has

        625
        ever had has been for the purpose of partly politics at home.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I also hold in my hand an official document of the Committee. It is dated the 24th May, 1933. There were two or three Amendments proposed by various members of the League of Nations, including Germany, which proposed the abolition of these words. The Germans proceeded to propose the complete abolition of aircraft. That was in May. The Committee adjourned, I believe, in June, and nothing had been concluded then. By the time the Committee had reassembled, Germany had withdrawn from the League. She withdrew from the League, I believe, in October, so that by November she was not there at all. At that time she was supporting the abolition of these words, and several others as well. It cannot be quite accurate to say that the reservation played no part at all, when I have here in the official document the actual Amendments moved by several members of the Committee.
        Mr. EDEN: I never denied what the right hon. Gentleman says. There was a discussion of four hours and Amendments were moved, but we were engaged on a first reading and no decisions were taken and none asked for. I made it quite clear in the House in July that there would be no question of our holding up the proceedings. There is another argument with which I wish to deal, and that is the suggestion that the October proposals—another inaccuracy of the right hon. Gentleman—as the result of which Germany left the Disarmament Conference, were our proposals. They were no such thing. They were not exclusively British proposals. They were proposals agreed upon by the United States Government, the French Government, the Government of Belgium, the Government of Italy and ourselves. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary was the spokesman for those Governments that time and the proposals were generally approved in the bureau, but Germany, we know, would not accept them.
        Let me deal with one or two questions which have been asked about Abyssinia. The first charge brought against us is that we are interfering in a dispute with which we have no concern. This Government, and other Governments which have preceded us, have repeatedly
        626
        declared that they founded their foreign policy upon their membership of the League. If this is not merely an empty declaration, it is impossible to maintain for a moment that this dispute is no concern of ours, for it is an essential feature of the Covenant that any dispute between two members of the League which threatens to disturb peace is a matter of concern to all Governments. If, then, we found our foreign policy upon the League, this dispute is and must remain a matter of immediate and vital concern to us. We have recently been reminded, in the manifesto of the Council of Action, that a mere profession of interest in peace and of attachment to the League of Nations is not enough. I quite agree. It is, indeed, my chief criticism of this manifesto that it contains nothing else. If professions of interest are not enough, if this dispute is, as in fact it must be, a matter of concern to us, what are we to do about it?
        In this connection I should like to say a word or two about the offer that I was instructed to put forward in Rome, about which there still seems to be some misconception. The purpose of the offer was to obtain a final settlement of the dispute between Italy and Abyssinia. The object was to give some quid pro quo to Abyssinia for territorial and economic concessions by her which the settlement of the dispute with Italy might entail. Had it been welcomed, the next step would have been to lay the facts before France, as the co-signatory of the 1906 Treaty, before Abyssinia and before this House. Nothing was further from the mind of the Government than to go behind the back of anyone. When a new proposal is being ventilated it must be referred to someone first, and it was natural that the original inquiry should be made of the Italian Government. For, if the Italian Government did not look favourably on it, obviously there was no point in referring it to anyone else. We fully realise and we fully respect our obligations under the 1906 Treaty, but those obligations cannot and should not prevent us from having any ideas of our own, nor is it a breach of a Treaty to mention ideas to other parties to a Treaty. Certainly we had a full right to make the suggestion, just as the other Powers retained the full right to prevent them from being carried into effect if they saw fit to do so.

        627
        I referred just now to territorial and economic concessions. It would be foolish to ignore the significance of these economic questions in relation to this problem. It is one of Italy's complaints that the economic relations with Abyssinia, which she maintains she wished to create, which she argues that she has herself fostered by building roads and harbours, which she claims that the Treaty of 1928 foreshadowed for her, and which she argues Abyssinia by her attitude has brought to an end—that these economic conditions play an important part in this dispute. What kind of economic concessions, the House may ask, had we in mind? In the circumstances I shall not be expected to go into details, but the Committee may be interested if I give two examples. At present Abyssinia has a large number of foreign advisers. She has not one Italian adviser in a single important post. It might have been possible to improve on this position from the Italian point of view.
        Secondly, it is conceivable—though I cannot say that agreement would necessarily have been reached on this subject—that Abyssinia would have been willing to allow in certain conditions, the settlement of the inhabitants of foreign countries in some portions of her country. I only mention these two examples to show the Committee what sort of economic concessions we had in our minds, and to show that it would be quite untrue to suggest, therefore, that ours was either an unfruitful or an empty offer. On the contrary, in an issue of this kind you have got to seek to find some solid basis of negotiation. By this means we sought to provide such a basis. It might have been possible for us thus to have contributed to a solution which would have given Italy a considerable measure of satisfaction, and which would still have been acceptable to Abyssinia.
        There is one more criticism with which I must deal. It seems to be maintained, even by some Members in this House who have no objection to the offer, that there was an error in the method of presentation; and that it should not have been put forward by a Member of the Government but left to His Majesty's Ambassador in Rome to put forward himself. Two main considerations moved the
        628
        Government in their decision. The first was that the primary object of my visits to Paris and Rome was to give the French And Italian Governments certain explanations about the Naval Agreement and to discuss with them how progress could be made with the Air Pact and the other items mentioned in the London communique. It would have been possible, I suppose, to visualise a meeting and conversations with Signor Mussolini about these other matters without any mention of the subject of Abyssinia at all. But I think the Committee would agree that there would have been a certain unreality in such a procedure since none of us can ignore the fact that the course of this dispute cannot but profoundly affect the course of European events.
        His Majesty's Government, therefore, considered that the occasion of my visit should be used to sound Signor Mussolini as to the suggestions I have described as a possible basis for settlement. They decided to do it because they wished to underline to Signor Mussolini by a direct message from a Member of the British Government the gravity of their concern at the course events were taking. After most careful consideration we came to the conclusion that the chances of securing by negotiation upon these proposals the basis of agreement in Rome would be to some extent enhanced if the offer could be made in this way. In an issue where the stakes are so important, no effort should be spared which might, to however small an extent, enhance the chances of success. My right hon. Friend the Member for Epping was very kind and very generous when he begged me to be careful of myself. But I think he will agree that what was at stake here was not whether the Government or individual Members of the Government should be taken care of, but whether a settlement of some kind could be arrived at. In the circumstances we were bound to take risks which, perhaps, in other circumstances I should not have been very happy to take myself.
        Finally, one other argument. It is said that it is a bad precedent—it is the argument of the right hon. Gentleman—to give away parts of British territory to solve the situation. I need perhaps hardly add that the Government fully realise that this proposal possessed certain disadvantages of which that one was

        629
        the most serious. But we thought that they were small compared with the immense gain of a peaceful solution. If it should be thought in any quarter of the Committee that the making of this suggestion indicates that it can be regarded henceforth as a feature of British policy that British territority is to be given away whenever the accommodation of a difficult situation is sought for, then let me at once emphatically deny any such interpretation. Let me say here and now, such is not the policy of His Majesty's Government, and that it is indeed drawing a very false conclusion to think that, because in one particular instance there was a positive territorial contribution we were prepared to suggest which might have secured peace, this could in any way constitute a precedent. There is no such precedent, though in practice had the present proposal been accepted and allowed us to find a basis for a settlement, let us not forget that Great Britain stood to gain as much as any other nation.
        In the last minute of my speech may I say a word about the future. The conciliation machinery set up by the Council last May appears unhappily to have broken down. We have yet received no official confirmation, but we are already considering the situation. In addition to this, of course, are the wider aspects of the dispute. In this connection we have been in consultation with the French Government. I must emphasise what my right hon. Friend has already referred
        to. I state definitely that at no time in the conversations which we have had with the French Government on this vexed affair has there been any foundation for any suggestion on our part that the French Government should join with us in economic action. That is quite a fair statement of the position. Our endeavour has been to discover whether the French Government had any constructive suggestions they could make towards a settlement of the dispute. We felt that we had made our contribution, and that it was their turn to make theirs.
        In conclusion, I must put to the House one of the broader aspects of the reasons why the dispute causes anxiety. We want to make progress in Europe with all the items of the London Communiqué of 3rd February under which Europe may enter upon a new era. The world is too small to-day for us to live in a water-tight compartment, and the reaction of events in distant Africa may be felt in Europe. It is for this reason that I give to the Committee this assurance. His Majesty's Government will strive constantly and persistently for a settlement of the dispute, for upon a happy issue in this matter may depend the future or the peace structure which we have laboured so hard to build up in these post-war years.
        Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,800, be granted for the said Service."
        The Committee divided: Ayes, 40; Noes, 236.

        Division No. 268.]

        AYES.

        [11.0 p.m.

        Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

        Edwards, Sir Charles

        Lunn, William

        Attlee, Rt. Hon. Clement R.

        Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

        McEntee, Valentine L.

        Banfield, John William

        Gardner, Benjamin Walter

        Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

        Batey, Joseph

        George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

        Mainwaring, William Henry

        Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

        George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

        Maxton, James

        Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

        Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

        Nathan, Major H. L.

        Cape, Thomas

        Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

        Parkinson, John Allen

        Cleary, J. J.

        Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

        Salter, Dr. Alfred

        Cocks, Frederick Seymour

        Jenkins, Sir William

        Smith, Tom (Normanton)

        Cove, William G.

        Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

        Tinker, John Joseph

        Cripps, Sir Stafford

        Kirkwood, David

        Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

        Daggar, George

        Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

        Wilmot, John

        Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

        Lawson, John James

        Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

        Logan, David Gilbert

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

        Mr. Paling and Mr. D. Graham.

        NOES.

        Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

        Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

        Boulton, W. W.

        Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

        Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

        Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

        Albery, Irving James

        Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

        Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

        Alexander, Sir William

        Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

        Bracken, Brendan

        Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

        Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

        Brass, Captain Sir William

        Anderson, Sir Alan Garrett

        Beit, Sir Alfred L.

        Broadbent, Colonel John

        Apsley, Lord

        Bernays, Robert

        Brocklebank, C. E. R.

        Aske, Sir Robert William

        Blaker, Sir Reginald

        Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

        Bailey, Eric Alfred George

        Blindell, James

        Brown, Rt. Hon. Ernest (Leith)

        Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

        Boothby, Robert John Graham

        Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

        Burghley, Lord

        Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

        Percy, Lord Eustace

        Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

        Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Walter

        Perkins, Walter R. D.

        Burnett, John George

        Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

        Petherick, M.

        Butler, Richard Austen

        Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

        Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

        Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

        Hornby, Frank

        Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh-pt'n, Bilston)

        Caporn, Arthur Cecil

        Howard, Tom Forrest

        Pickthorn, K. W. M.

        Carver, Major William H.

        Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

        Potter, John

        Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

        Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

        Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

        Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

        Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

        Procter, Major Henry Adam

        Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

        Hume, Sir George Hopwood

        Radford, E. A.

        Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

        Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

        Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

        Christie, James Archibald

        Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romford)

        Ramsbotham, Herwald

        Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

        Iveagh, Countess of

        Ramsden, Sir Eugene

        Clayton, Sir Christopher

        Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

        Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

        Cobb, Sir Cyril

        James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

        Reid, David D. (County Down)

        Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

        Jennings, Roland

        Remer, John R.

        Colman, N. C. D.

        Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

        Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

        Cook, Thomas A.

        Ker, J. Campbell

        Rickards, George William

        Cooper, T. M. (Edinburgh, W.)

        Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

        Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

        Copeland, Ida

        Kerr, Hamilton W.

        Ropner, Colonel L.

        Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

        Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

        Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

        Cranborne, Viscount.

        Kirkpatrick, William M.

        Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

        Craven-Ellis, William

        Law Sir Alfred

        Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward

        Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

        Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.)

        Runge, Norah Cecil

        Crooke, J. Smedley

        Leckie, J. A.

        Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

        Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

        Leech, Dr. J. W.

        Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

        Croom-Johnson, R. P.

        Leighton, Major B. E. P.

        Salmon, Sir Isidore

        Crossley, A. C.

        Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

        Salt, Edward W.

        Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

        Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

        Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

        Dalkeith, Earl of

        Llewellin, Major John J.

        Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

        Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir John

        Lloyd, Geoffrey

        Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

        Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)

        Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. G'n)

        Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

        Denman, Hon. R. D.

        Loder, Captain J. de Vere

        Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

        Danville, Alfred

        Loftus, Pierce C.

        Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

        Dickie, John P.

        Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

        Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

        Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

        Lyons, Abraham Montagu

        Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

        Eastwood, John Francis

        Mabane, William

        Spencer, Captain Richard A.

        Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony

        MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

        Spens, William Patrick

        Edmondson, Major Sir James

        MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Bassetlaw)

        Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

        Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

        Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

        Stevenson, James

        Elliston, Captain George Sampson

        McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

        Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

        Emrys- Evans, P. V.

        McKeag, William

        Strauss, Edward A.

        Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

        Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

        Strickland, Captain W. F.

        Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

        Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

        Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

        Ford, Sir Patrick J.

        Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

        Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

        Fraser, Captain Sir Ian

        Marsden, Commander Arthur

        Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

        Fremantle, Sir Francis

        Martin, Thomas B.

        Tate, Mavis Constance

        Fuller, Captain A. G.

        Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

        Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

        Fyfe, D. P. M.

        Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

        Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

        Ganzonl, Sir John

        Mellor, Sir J. S. P.

        Thomson, Sir James D. W.

        Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

        Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

        Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

        Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

        Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

        Tree, Ronald

        Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

        Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

        Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

        Graves, Marjorie

        Mitcheson, G. G.

        Turton, Robert Hugh

        Greene, William P. C.

        Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

        Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)

        Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

        Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

        Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

        Grigg, Sir Edward

        Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

        Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

        Grimston, R. V.

        Morgan, Robert H.

        Waterhouse, Captain Charles

        Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

        Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

        Watt, Major George Steven H.

        Gunston, Captain D. W.

        Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

        Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

        Guy, J. C. Morrison

        Morrison, William Shepherd

        Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

        Hales, Harold K.

        Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

        Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

        Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

        Munro, Patrick

        Wills, Wilfrid D.

        Hanbury, Sir Cecil

        Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

        Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertt'd)

        Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

        North, Edward T.

        Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

        Hartington, Marquess of

        O'Donovan, Dr. William James

        Worthington, Sir John

        Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Sir Cuthbert

        Orr Ewing, I. L.

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

        Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

        Patrick, Colin M.

        Sir George Penny and Sir Walter

        Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Cheimsf'd)

        Peake, Osbert

        Womersley.

        Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

        Pearson, William G.

        Resolution agreed to.

        Original Question again proposed.
        It being after Eleven o'Clock and objection being taken to further Proceeding, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
        Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

      TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) [MONEY].
      Resolution reported,
      "That it is expedient to provide for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be necessary to secure that the annual allowances which under paragraph (a) of sub-section (3) of

      633
      section three of the Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1925, or under any scheme made under paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) of sub-section (1) of section twenty-one of that Act or under any scheme framed in pursuance of the Education (Scotland) (Superannuation) Acts, 1919 to 1925, accrue after the thirtieth day of June, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, to persons whose service included service during the period beginning on the first day of October, nineteen hundred and thirty-one, and ending with the said thirtieth day of June shall not be less than 98 per cent. of the annual allowances which would have so accrued if during that period no reduction had been made in their salaries in pursuance of Article 2 of the National Economy (Education) Order, 1931, or Article 1 of the National Economy (Education) (Scotland) Order, 1931, or otherwise on account of the national economic conditions by reason whereof those Orders were made."
      Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Mr. Stanley, Sir Godfrey Collins, Mr. Ramsbotham and Mr. Skelton.

      TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL,
      "to provide that the annual allowances which under the enactments relating to
      634
      the superannuation of teachers accrue after the thirtieth day of June, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, to persons whose service included service during the period beginning on the first day of October, nineteen hundred and thirty-one, and ending with the said thirtieth day of June, shall not be less than ninety-eight per cent. of the annual allowances which would have so accrued if during that period no reduction had been made in their salaries on account of national economic conditions," presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second Time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 112.]
      The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

      ADJOURNMENT.
      Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
      Adjourned accordingly at Thirteen Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  SHERBURN AERODROME.
  SHERBURN AERODROME.
  ROYAL REVIEW AND DISPLAY (FOREIGN REPRESENTATIVES).
  ROYAL REVIEW AND DISPLAY (FOREIGN REPRESENTATIVES).
  POLICE ACTION (HENDON AIR DISPLAY).
  POLICE ACTION (HENDON AIR DISPLAY).
  SCHOOL BUILDINGS (STRUCTURAL SAFETY).
  SCHOOL BUILDINGS (STRUCTURAL SAFETY).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  SPECIAL AREAS (COMMISSIONER'S REPORT).
  SPECIAL AREAS (COMMISSIONER'S REPORT).
  JUVENILES.
  JUVENILES.
PUBLIC HEALTH.
  BEDDINGTON SEWAGE SCHEME.
  BEDDINGTON SEWAGE SCHEME.
  LUNACY AND MENTAL DEFICIENCY.
  LUNACY AND MENTAL DEFICIENCY.
  RATES (PAYMENT BY INSTALMENTS).
  RATES (PAYMENT BY INSTALMENTS).
  TELEPHONE CHARGES (ISLE OF WIGHT).
  TELEPHONE CHARGES (ISLE OF WIGHT).
AGRICULTURE.
  WORKERS.
  WORKERS.
  ALLOTMENTS.
  ALLOTMENTS.
  SOMALILAND (EXPORTS AND IMPORTS).
  SOMALILAND (EXPORTS AND IMPORTS).
  AFRICAN NATIVES (INQUIRY).
  AFRICAN NATIVES (INQUIRY).
  SCOTLAND (MOTOR SPIRIT, ALCOHOL).
  SCOTLAND (MOTOR SPIRIT, ALCOHOL).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Read 2a.
MAIDSTONE CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
READING CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
FYLDE WATER BOARD BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

BOGNOR GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (CREDITING OF CONTRIBUTIONS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.

LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BOARD (FINANCE) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT (CON VENTIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to carry out certain draft International Conventions relating to the employment of women during the night and to hours of work in automatic sheet glass works, to amend the law relating to the hours of employment of women holding responsible

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positions of management who are not ordinarily engaged in manual work; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid. I move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the B ill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I think it will be convenient to your Lordships if the noble Marquess the Leader of the House can tell us what the course of business next week will be and whether he expects the House to sit on Tuesday.
EARL PEEL: My Lords, may I just supplement that question and ask the noble Marquess if he will be good enough to make a statement, about the later stages of the Government of India Bill?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY): My Lords, I am much obliged to my two noble friends for giving me the opportunity of making a statement on the business which it is proposed to take next week. The Report stage of the Government of India Bill will be commenced on Thursday next, July 18, and should be continued if the coarse of the debate makes this necessary on the following Monday, July 22. It may possibly be necessary to ask your Lordships to sit after dinner on both those days, but I think we can wait until the day when we shall be able to make some arrangements. The date that I have in mind for the Third Reading is Wednesday, July 24.
As the noble Lord has asked for the programme for next week, I think it would be convenient if I gave the course of business which it is proposed to take on each day. It will be necessary for your Lordships to sit on Monday, when it is proposed to take the Report stages of the Housing Bill and the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Bill and the Committee stage of the Money Payments (Justices Procedure) Bill. In addition there are Questions down in the names of Lord Lamington and Lord Strickland. I am not proposing that the House should meet on Tuesday, July 16, as I
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know that many of your Lordships will desire to be present at the Naval Review. On Wednesday, July 17, we shall take the Third Readings of the Housing Bill, the Money Payments (Justices Procedure) Bill and the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Bill, the Report stage of the 'Weights and Measures Bill and the Committee stage of the Housing (Scotland) Bill. In addition, on that day, there are Questions down in the names of Lord Noel Buxton and Lord Mansfield. On Thursday, July 18, as I have already informed your Lordships, we shall commence the Report stage of the Government of India Bill and the House will meet on that day at three o'clock. It may also, as I have said, be necessary to ask your Lordships to sit after dinner.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, arising out of that statement of my noble friend, I wish to ask your Lordships' permission to be absent on Wednesday next as I hope to have the privilege, with some other members of the Government, of attending the exercises of the Fleet on that afternoon. Therefore, I hope you will forgive me if I find substitute to take my place on the Woolsack that day.
METROPOLITAN COMMON SCHEME (PALEWELL) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

ASSURANCE COMPANIES (WINDING UP) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the Bill to which I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading is a Bill which is designed to remedy a deficiency which has made its presence apparent in the Assurance Companies (Winding Up) Act of 1933. As your Lordships know, it is now compulsory for persons using motor cars and mechanical vehicles on the public roads to take out an insurance policy against third-party risks. The object of that, of course, is to ensure that anyone who is unhappily injured by any fault in driving shall be sure to recover

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the damages which he or she may sustain. Unfortunately, it has turned out in experience that it sometimes happens that the company with whom the insurance policy is effected is not in a position to discharge its liability. Parliament recognised in 1933 that it was eminently undesirable that we should enact that these policies should be taken out, in order to make sure that damages should be recovered when they are sustained, and then to leave it possible for a company in an insolvent condition to be carrying on that business, and so to deprive the public of the security which we thought we were giving. In those circumstances the Act of 1933 gave power to the Board of Trade in certain circumstances to inspect the accounts of companies, and to apply for winding up orders.
The Act of 1933 gave power to the Board of Trade to take action when, in the words of the Statute, "it appears to the Board of Trade that there is reasonable ground for believing that an assurance company is insolvent." The Board of Trade has been advised, and I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the advice, that in order to satisfy that condition they must be able to produce prima facie evidence of the insolvency of the company. Now, the question whether the company is insolvent is the very question which they desire to investigate, and in certain cases to appoint an inspector to investigate, and the position under the present law is that the very fact which the Board of Trade is intended to find out, and in regard to which it is intended it shall have power of inspection, has first to be prima facie proved to the Board of Trade before it can act at all. In those circumstances it has been thought necessary to strengthen the power of the Board, and the proposals which the Government have thought it right to bring forward involve that the Board of Trade shall have the right to require a company to give such information as will enable the Board of Trade to ascertain whether it is insolvent, and if the company either will not give the information or the information discloses a doubtful state of affairs, then for the Board of Trade to appoint an inspector.
Obviously, your Lordships may say that if that were left to the untrammeled
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power of a public Department, it might be that we should have too great a responsibility placed upon a possibly bureaucratic office. Accordingly care is taken in the Bill to provide that if the company objects to give the information or if it objects to the appointment of an inspector, then application has to be made to the Court, and the Court has to determine that the information is necessary in order to ascertain the solvency of the company or that the appointment of the inspector is necessary for that purpose, before the order can be made. I venture to think that that provision is not an unreasonable one in the light of the experiences of the last few years.
I have to add that before introducing this Bill the Board of Trade thought it right to consult the British Insurance Association, which is the association representing the great insurance companies of this country. The association have always taken the view, and still take the view, that these powers ought not to be confined to the case of companies, and would like to see them extended to the case of individuals. That would involve a very much wider extension of the law than it would be possible to get through at this season of the year and would involve very radical changes in our procedure: and the association, recognising that fact, while they still would desire that the law should be extended to individuals, still have recognised the urgency of the present problems and have intimated that they agree with the principle of the Bill.
I would desire also, in order to avoid misconception, to state that, although in the view of the Government these powers are necessary in order to provide complete protection to the public, it is only in the case of an infinitesimal proportion of the insurance companies of this country that any question of this kind can arise. Fortunately we have a system of insurance built up through a long series of commercial enterprises and a long business experience in this country which is probably unrivalled in any country in the world, and there is no question at all that the great insurance companies of this country are as strong and as safe as any institutions could possibly be. It is only to deal with the very small minority of cases which,

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although they are insignificant numerically, yet in the individual case may cause substantial -harm and damage to the individual, that we have thought it right to ask your Lordships to give these additional powers. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellar.)
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I rise to support this Bill for reasons which I will state. As the noble and learned Viscount has said, insurance companies have taken part in the preliminary discussion of its provisions and, recognising as they do that the amendment proposed is reasonable, they have offered no opposition. Nevertheless, it would be dealing with the subject more adequately and comprehensively if there were passed into law with some amendments the Insurance Undertakings Bill, which has lain dormant for some years. Their attitude—and I am sure your Lordships will agree with this—is a further instance of the strength of the tradition of service by which the insurance companies are moved in all matters affecting the public interests, and I think the noble and learned Viscount acknowledged that in the words that he spoke. But it would be wrong—as the noble and learned Viscount has also acknowledged—to assume from the companies' attitude towards the Bill that there is no feature in this legislation to which they take exception. There is, in fact, one serious evil to which reference has been made, to which I feel it my duty to direct the attention of your Lordships' House, because it would be unfortunate if the support which the companies are prepared to give to this measure should be interpreted at any subsequent time as acquiescence in its shortcomings.
Your Lordships will have observed that the powers conferred upon the Government by the principal measure which this Bill seeks to amend are exercisable only in respect of certain insurance companies, as has been stated. It is a matter of common knowledge, however, that the conduct of insurance operations in this country is not confined only to insurance companies, but is shared in by syndicates of private underwriters and by mutual associations. It is true that the circumstances which prompted this legislation and the present amending Bill arose in connection with certain small insurance
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companies, but, looking at the history of British insurance as a whole, the cases where a British company has defaulted on its obligations are extremely rare; and it is no exaggeration to say that the British insurance companies, many of whose names are household words throughout the world, stand for all that is best in British commercial life.
And yet the Government, while taking, for the protection of the public, powers in respect of the whole body of insurance companies, have not taken any steps to extend those powers to deal with any other classes of insurers, such as those that I have just mentioned. The insurance companies are unable in equity to admit or to acquiesce in the principle of this discrimination, but, as I have already indicated, it is not proposed in any way to hinder the passage of this Bill by seeking its amendment. I am content to-day to bring to the notice of the Government the view that there should be at an early date legislation to bring all insurers, of whatever nature, within its scope, and to make it plain that the acceptance of this Bill as it stands in no way involves acceptance of the principle of discrimination which it contains.
LORD ELTON: My Lords, this Bill comes before us with the special advantage of being presented with all the customary lucidity and impressiveness of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. It appears to me to be yet one more contribution to that admirably intentioned, but necessarily piecemeal and restricted process of erosion which the Minister of Transport is conducting at the circumference of the road problem—a problem which I myself am convinced will only be eventually solved by much more explosive act-ion at the centre. Unfortunately, it has to be admitted that at the moment that snore drastic and con prehensive action is not entirely within the power of the Minister of Transport The present position seems to me exactly to reverse the circumstances in a familiar fable of Æsop. The British public appears to resemble the lion which has got itself inextricably entangled in the net of road slaughter, and your Lordships will doubtless remember that the powerful and irritable animal was eventually liberated by the inconspicuous activities of a benevolent mouse. The Minister of

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Transport, relying on literary precedents, is presumably trying to re-enact the part of that gifted rodent. My own view is that it is only when the lion itself can be persuaded to lash itself into sufficient frenzy to break its own way out of the net that the road problem will be solved. However, it has to be admitted that the temper of the public has not yet risen sufficiently for that to be expected in the near future, and consequently we have to be content with a series of partial erosions of which this is an instalment.
For the present instalment I, for myself, would say what one finds oneself saying about so many Bills, that we are very grateful but that we wish it had gone a good deal further. I do not want to traverse any of the ground which has been covered with such admirable and lucid brevity by the noble and learned Viscount, but I would like to ask him: Is it not true that before commencing motor insurance business it is only necessary to deposit £15,000, and is not that sum entirely independent of the volume of business to be transacted; so that if any of your Lordships were to decide for one reason or another not to insure your car before you took it on the road, you would yourselves be required to make a deposit of £15,000? If that is so it is obvious that there is no guarantee that a business is adequately equipped for motor insurance before it starts business. I would like to make it clear that I am speaking only of the few sinners and not of the many righteous, and I am not in. any sense calling in question the well-deserved tributes paid to the insurance business in general both by the noble and learned Viscount and by the noble Viscount who has just sat down.
I would like to ask the noble and learned Viscount whether it would not be possible at a later stage to consider altering the permissive "may" into the mandatory "shall." Is it not possible that, if we leave the permissive "may" in the Bill, the Board of Trade will almost inevitably wait before acting until there is some suspicion about the stability of the company in question? If that is so, are we not reintroducing ourselves to the old vicious circle? Once it is recognised that the summons to provide evidence implies some stigma, some suspicion of insolvency, then it seems to me the Board of Trade is all the more likely to
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give the company in question the benefit of the doubt, all the more likely to be reluctant to issue that summons. Just as when a private citizen is placed in the dock there is necessarily some stigma on him even if he is triumphantly acquitted of all the charges against him, so is it also likely that there will be some stigma upon a company which is selected out of all the companies as the one of which it is to be required that it shall furnish evidence, even if it should succeed in completely establishing its own solvency. We all know that Government Departments are traditionally soft-hearted. I. can understand the Board of Trade saying: "In the interests of the shareholders of this company we must wait a little longer, we must give it the benefit of the doubt, before we subject it to this inevitable stigma." I may be entirely wrong and the noble Viscount will tell me if I am wrong; but, if that is so, shall we not be back where we were under the Act of 1933? Would it not be better to substitute the mandatory "shall" for the permissive "may" and thereby transform a selective system into an automatic system? That is my first point.
My second point is this, and I hope I am not asking too much. I, personally, should be very glad to see, not only regular automatic provision of proof of stability of insurance companies. I should also like to see regular and automatic provision of statistics on certain other matters which are of great and growing importance to the State and to the general public. I think I am right in saying that when the Road Traffic (Compensation for Accidents) Bill was before a Select Committee of your Lordships' House, that Select Committee found itself considerably hampered in its activities by lack of statistics which in some cases, I believe, the insurance companies were not too ready to provide. I, for one, should like to see a regular return of statistics, for example, as to the number of claims made, the number paid by settlement, the number awarded in Court, the number declined, and the total sums paid.
All these are matters of great and growing importance, not only to the Board of Trade but to the Minister of Transport and to the general public. It

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seems to me that, by making motor insurance compulsory, the State has conferred a very real advantage on the motor insurance companies, and may therefore regard itself as entitled to say to them: "In return for this advantage of being taken in a sense into State partnership to your advantage, you shall regularly and systematically satisfy us not only as to your solvency, but as to the fact that you are faithfully, and on fair terms, discharging your obligations to the public, and further we ask you to provide these statistics which are required to enable us to conduct our general attack upon the much wider road problem."
I feel it in my bones that the noble and learned Viscount will say I am asking in this respect too much. If that is too much, will it also he too much to ask at a later stage for the mandatory "shall" instead of the permissive "may," and thereby transform the selective system with its necessary stigma, and all that springs from that necessary stigma, into the mandatory and automatic system? Only when we get that mandatory and automatic system will the public be in a position to feel that this compulsory legal insurance is, by all the companies and not merely by the great majority, being discharged in an adequate and reliable manner. That I believe is what the public demand and what it seems to me, subject to correction, unless it is strengthened this measure will not provide.
THE EARL OF MAR AND KELLIE: My Lords, surely at the present time every insurance company has to send up to the Board of Trade the most minute accounts? Therefore, if any unsoundness may occur, the Board of Trade is in a position at once to lay its finger on it, for that reason I cannot at first sight see the necessity for the Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, in reply to the questions which have been raised by my noble friend Lord Elibank, I think he will realise that I anticipated most of the points he was going to raise in the speech with which I opened the debate. It is quite true that this Bill deals with companies, and companies only, but I explained before that it is not possible in legislation which it is desired to get on the Statute Book at the earliest possible moment to make
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such very complete changes in our law as would be involved by the suggestion to bring all individuals within the present company provisions.
The two questions which have been addressed to me by the two other noble Lords just a little bit cancel out one another. The noble Lord, Lord Elton, said: "Why do you not make it, mandatory and insist on everybody making full returns?" The next question was: "Why have the Bill at all, because you have already all the returns you want?" In fact, neither statement is quite true it is perfectly true, as I was going to say. in answer to Lord Elton in any case, there is already provision by which at the end of the year for which the accounts are made up, or, at any rate, within six months after they have been made up, figures are furnished to the Board of Trade, and these figures do contain very complete information; but my noble friend will realise that these figures relate to a period which may have begun eighteen months before the figures are actually furnished If the Board of Trade have to wait for eighteen months after they begin to suspect insolvency, and for such further period as is necessary to investigate the affairs of the company when the accounts are submitted, it may be a very long time before they are able to take effective action, and during the whole of that time a company which is not in a position to discharge its liabilities may be going on piling up increased liabilities to the on small detriment of the public.
In answer to my noble friend Lord Elton, who says "Make this mandatory," there is, as has been pointed out already, the mandatory provision that companies shall furnish accounts within six months after each year, and in the great majority of cases that is quite sufficient. This Bill is designed, as the 1933 Act was intended, to meet the case in which the Board of Trade believe that a company is carrying on business after it has got into an insolvent condition, and is not able to cheek that information or take any steps with regard to it because it has got to wait for six months after the end of the company's financial year. It would not be possible, as my noble friend has suggested, to make it mandatory on every company to furnish such accounts as the Board of Trade may

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want because, again, you would be leaving it entirely at the discretion of the Board of Trade to say what they are going to ask for. It is mandatory on every company to furnish such accounts as are commonly required. The need which we have found in practice to have arisen is to take steps when there is a company with regard to which there is general suspicion—and indeed what the man-in-the-street would call general knowledge—that it was in a doubtful state of solvency and with regard to which there is no means of arresting its course until the statutory period has arrived.
Then, it may be said: "Why should you not only have the right to demand such accounts as are involved in the ordinary statutory provision?" The answer is that it is not possible from those accounts always to find out everything that you want to know. In the ordinary case the accounts are ample and full and complete enough, and leave no possible doubt as to the solvency of the company involved, but one great element in a company's solvency is the assessment of the possible claims, because at the end of a year there is always an unexpired risk, and you can make a good deal of difference according to the rate at which you estimate the unexpected risk. I even read the other day an account of a company which was being wound up, and the explanation given by, I think, the managing director was that the Courts were so unreasonable in giving too heavy damages. That was only another way of saying the company had consistently underestimated its liability. Unless you have power to look into the figures and see how the accounts are made up you cannot check them and assure yourself of the solvency of the company. I do not contend that this Bill is complete. It is intended simply to meet the difficulty which has arisen in practice and which we hope will be remedied.
In answer to the other suggestion made by my noble friend, that we are eroding the edge of a great problem, I would point out that this Bill is not designed to affect the safety of the roads at all. It is intended only to deal with the ordinary but still important problem as to what shall happen when, unhappily, an accident has occurred. I venture to think that with these explanations your
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Lordships will realise that, although it is a small measure, it is yet an eminently useful one, and I hope, therefore, that it will receive your Lordships' general assent.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MONEY PAYMENTS (JUSTICES PROCEDURE) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, the subject of this Bill was debated in your Lordships' House as recently as last February. On that occasion the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, called your Lordships' attention. to the Report of the Departmental Committee which had investigated the question why so many people are sent to prison every year by courts of summary jurisdiction for failure to pay fines, rates, and sums due under wife maintenance orders and affiliation orders. In a speech for which we are greatly indebted to the noble Lord, he drew, if I may be permitted to say so, in a very clear and concise manner attention to the principal facts and considerations contained in that Report. He then pointed out that the Committee had come to the unanimous conclusion that it would be practicable by certain amendments of the law to reduce substantially the number of imprisonments.
There can be no doubt as to the importance of this subject. In a year about 20,000 people are sent to prison in England and Wales for failing to make the money payments which are dealt with in this Bill. Over 11,000 people are sent 'to prison for failure to pay fines, 3,600 for failure to pay under wife maintenance orders, 2,400 for failure to pay under affiliation orders and 3,000 people for failure to gay rates. As the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, has already told your Lordships, the total number of imprisonments in a year from all causes is 53,000, and therefore your Lordships will appreciate that more than one-third of the total number of imprisonments occur, not because offences have been committed for which imprisonment is the only appropriate penalty, but because there has been failure to comply with the orders

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of a. court of summary jurisdiction for payment of a sum of money.
I believe that it is unnecessary for me at this stage to enlarge upon the evils attendant on the great number of imprisonments for failure to pay money. The noble Lord's request that early steps should be taken to implement the recommendations of that Departmental Committee was echoed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Merrivale, the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury. The unanimity of opinion expressed in your Lordships' House on that occasion has greatly facilitated the task of the Government in dealing with this problem, and the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, will be glad that they have decided to introduce without delay a measure to give effect to the views expressed on that occasion in all parts of your Lordships' House. But perhaps it may be well for mc to explain the provisions of the particular clauses contained in the' Bill in more detail than is customary for a non-controversial measure owing to the fact that this Bill has come to your Lordships' House before being introduced in another place, and to the essential importance of having the provisions of the Bill understood by those who adjudicate in petty sessional courts.
The principles upon which the Committee's Report is based are comparatively simple, but in order to give effect to those principles it is necessary to amend the existing law relating to the procedure of courts of summary jurisdiction in a number of details. A great deal of consideration has been given to the question as to how to effect these amendments in as clear and short a way as is practicable, and the Bill before your Lordships embodies. I think, the essential proposals of the Committee so far as they relate to courts of summary jurisdiction. The principles running through all the Committee's recommendations are, first, that persons should not be imprisoned for default in payment of moneys unless and until the minds of the justices have been specifically directed to the question of imprisonment; and secondly, that as regards rates and sums Clue under wife maintenance orders or affiliation orders, it should be made clear that the courts ought not to commit to prison if, after inquiry as to the means
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and circumstances of the defaulter, they come to the opinion that his default is not due to wilful refusal or culpable neglect. To give effect to these general principles it is necessary to deal separately with the law relating to fines, to wife maintenance and affiliation orders, and also to rates.
As regards fines, the Bill proposes in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee to give effect to the principle that imprisonment shall only be ordered after the mind of the court has been specifically directed to this question, by providing in Clause I that when a fine is imposed and time is given for payment there shall at the time of the conviction as a general rule be no term of imprisonment fixed in default, but that if default occurs the defaulter shall be brought before the court again so that the justices may have the opportunity of reviewing his circumstances before deciding whether to send him to prison. It is, of course, necessary, as the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, pointed out in his speech on his Motion, to give some discretion to the courts to make certain exceptions to this general rule and these exceptional cases are covered by the proviso to Clause 1. The noble Lord referred to such specific cases as habitual drunkards and vagrants. As regards the great majority of cases where fines are imposed the court expects the fines to be paid and does not, when imposing a fine, contemplate the possibility of imprisonment. In over 97 per cent., of the cases this expectation is justified. Your Lordships will remember that the total number of persons fined, according to the last available statistics in 1932, was 437,000. In the residue of cases, just below 3 per cent., the defendant is sent to prison as a result of the issue of a commitment warrant signed by a single justice who may know nothing about the case except that the fine has not been paid.
Under the procedure proposed in Clause 1 it would be impossible for a position to arise in which the justices may have to sign commitment warrants without full information about the circumstances of the persons against whom those warrants are directed. The new procedure proposed under the Bill will be when default occurs to bring the defendant before the court so that the court may consider, not, of course, the

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original conviction, but whether the defendant has made reasonable efforts to pay the fine, whether longer time should be allowed to him, and what is the appropriate penalty if he fails to pay. The court will also have an opportunity at this stage, if thought fit, to place the defaulter under supervision in accordance with the provisions of Clause 5, a clause on which with your Lordships' permission I will make some comment later.
One result of the new procedure proposed in Clause 1 is to make it necessary to provide special machinery for dealing with defendants who reside at some long distance from the court at which they have been convicted. Motoring offences, as your Lordships know, are frequently committed in places far removed from the defendant's residence. Under the present law if a man living, say, in York is fined for an offence in London—and if the offence were of a minor character he would probably send a letter to the court asking to be excused attendance—the procedure, if he fails to pay, would be for the London court to issue a warrant of commitment to prison and for the York police to execute that warrant. Under the new procedure proposed in Clause 1 it would obviously be impracticable to bring the defaulter from York to London for this purpose, for he has to appear before the court in order that his means may be ascertained. Clause 2 therefore provides machinery by which in such case the defaulter can, if necessary, be brought for such an examination before the court in the district in which he is residing. Obviously, my Lords, examination as to a defaulter's means can be more effectively conducted in his own district. It is perhaps worth mentioning here that if in such a ease the fine is ultimately paid it will be transmitted to the clerk of the convicting court.
Clause 3, which provides for proper notification being given to persons who are fined, is intended to bring the practice of all courts up to the standard of the best courts. Such notices as are provided for in this clause are specially important in the case of persons who are fined for minor offences in their absence. It is the practice of some clerks to justices to send no notification of a fine to an absent defaulter unless he has forwarded a stamped addressed envelope for this purpose, and needless to say the
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number of defendants who take this precaution is very small. Cases occur sometimes where an offender receives a summons on which there is a note that if he does not attend and wishes to hear the result he must send a stamped addressed envelope to the clerk. The offender does not attend the court and does not send a. stamped envelope. He is fined in his absence and hears no more of the matter until a policeman appears with a warrant of commitment to prison if the money is not then forthcoming he is liable to be lodged in gaol. The noble Lord, Lord Arnold, in the previous debate, quoted a case of a lorry driver who was charged with obstruction. It was a technical obstruction on the highway. He heard nothing of the results of the proceedings taken in his absence and remained in ignorance until a police officer arrived with a commitment warrant and he was taken to gaol. Everyone will agree that the law should be so framed as to prevent cases of this kind occurring, and Clause 3 will have that effect.
Clause 4 provides for detention for one night in a police station of persons who fail to pay small fines. Under the existing law imprisonment cannot be ordered for a shorter period than five days, and courts have power to commit to certified police cells for detention for a period not exceeding four days. Few police authorities, however, have applied for the necessary certificate that their station is suitable for detention for so long a period as four days. Accordingly under the existing law imprisonment has frequently to be ordered although it may be an excessive and inconvenient penalty. For example, men who have been fined, say, 5s., for some minor offence have to be sent up from, say, Brighton to Wormwood Scrubs for a week's imprisonment. Again, young fellows fined for some small offence, such, for example, as damage to a street lamp, have to be sent to prison for a week because the courts have no other method of enforcing the law against those who defy their authority. In many eases where small fines are imposed and are not paid it is essential to do something to show that the law cannot be disregarded with impunity; and Clause 4, authorising detention for a period not exceeding one night in a police cell, will give the courts a useful power of dealing with these minor cases. The

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fact that the power is in existence and can be used as a threat will frequently, no doubt, make it unnecessary to carry out the threat.
Clauses 5 and 6 make valuable extensions to the existing law relating to the powers of the court to place under supervision a person who has been given time to pay a fine. Under the existing law, where a young person under 21 is fined and given time to pay, courts have power to place him under the supervision of a suitable person who shall "advise and befriend him with a view to inducing him to pay and thereby avoid imprisonment and shall if required report to the court as to his conduct and means." Very little use has hitherto been made of this power, partly owing to the fact that supervision orders can under the existing law be made only at the time when the fine is imposed and cannot be made later when a default occurs; and partly owing to the fact that many courts do not think this duty of supervision is suitable for a probation officer and there is no one else available to undertake the work. The Committee expressed the opinion, with which I entirely agree, that the probation officer is clearly a suitable person to undertake this work, not only because of his training and experience but also because of his position of authority under the court which imposes the fine. It is recognised that in many areas the probation officer is already fully occupied and cannot undertake more duties, but that is not a reason for refusing to make use of this valuable method of supervision. It is a reason for strengthening the staff of probation officers and making such arrangements, either by turning a part-time probation officer into a full-time officer, or by appointing additional officers, as will enable the court to have assistance from a trained social worker in all cases where such assistance is desirable.
Clause 5 amends the existing law by enabling the courts to adopt the method of supervision not only at the time when the fine is imposed but also on a later occasion when default occurs, and also by enabling them, if they think fit, to use the method of supervision not only for young offenders but also for older defaulters. Clause 6 imposes an additional check on the imprisonment of young persons under twenty-one. Everyone agrees that imprisonment for young
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persons ought not to be adopted if any other method is practicable. The importance of this principle has recently been emphasised in weighty words by the Lord Chief Justice in a recent lecture of the Clarke Hall Fellowship. The clause will make it impracticable for the justices to send persons under twenty-one to prison for failure to pay fines unless the method of supervision has been tried or there is some special reason for not adopting this course, which reason must be stated by the justices in the warrant.
I now turn to the provisions of the Bill affecting wife maintenance and affiliation orders. Under the existing law, if a man fails to pay the weekly sum which he has been directed to pay under such orders, the justices may, "if they think fit," commit the defaulter to prison. Most justices, in the exercise of this wide discretion, consider how far the defaulter is to blame for his failure, but there is no legal requirement that they shall do so. The Committee regard this as a serious defect in the existing law, and it is desirable to lay down by Statute the policy which justices ought to pursue in such cases. While on the one hand it will be agreed that only those defaulters whose failure is culpable ought to be sent to prison, it is on the other hand essential to avoid placing on the woman the onus of proving that the man has been guilty of wilful refusal or culpable neglect. In framing Clause 8, account has been taken of both these -considerations. Its effect will be to require the justices in every case to consider whether the man's failure to pay is due to wilful refusal or culpable neglect without placing on the woman the onus of proving culpability. If, however, the justices, after reviewing the circumstances, form the opinion that there has been no culpability, the clause makes it clear that in such a ease they must not exercise the power of imprisonment.
Clause 10 of the Bill deals with rate defaulters, of whom about 3,000 are sent to prison every year. Very few of the large numbers of persons summoned for non-payment of rates appear in answer to the summons. The next step is for the justices to issue a distress warrant. In most cases payment is made on the issue of this warrant, if, however, the warrant is returned marked "No effects," or "Insufficient effects," application is then made to tile justices to issue a commitment to prison. Most of those who have

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not paid on the issue of the distress warrant pay on the issue of a commitment warrant, but in the residue of cases the defaulters are taken to prison. In a proportion of these cases, had the defendant appeared before the justices and represented his circumstances, he would have been given more time and possibly have been excused payment or part payment. This clause will enable and require the justices, in those cases where a distress warrant fails to produce the money, to compel the defaulter's attendance before the court. In many cases the issue of process for this purpose will no doubt result in the payment of the sum due. In the residue of cases the justices will have an opportunity of examining the defaulter as to his circumstances before deciding whether they will commit him to prison.
Under the existing provision of the Rating and Valuation Act the justices must not commit a defaulter to prison if he shows that his default is due to circumstances beyond his own control. The Committee, however, felt that it is undesirable to place on these defaulters, many of whom are ignorant of legal procedure, the onus of proof that default is due to circumstances beyond their own control. At the same time, if the onus of proof is placed on the rating authority, it would often be impossible for the rating authority to prove that default is due to wilful refusal or culpable neglect. Clause 10, accordingly, is based on the same principle as has been adopted with regard to defaulters under affiliation and maintenance orders. It requires the justices to consider in every case whether the failure to pay is clue to wilful refusal or culpable neglect, but does not place on the rating authority the onus of proving culpability. If, however, the justices, after considering the defaulter's circumstances, come to the conclusion that he is not to blame for his failure, then the clause will prevent them issuing a warrant of commitment to prison. Clause 12 enables the justices to investigate the circumstances of the various classes of defaulters to whom the Bill applies, and it will often be an advantage to them to be able to accept as prima facie evidence a written statement from the employer as to wages.
I hope I have made it clear by this review of the provisions of the Bill that
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it gives effect to the two main principles on which the Departmental Committee laid emphasis. First, it provides that before a defaulter is sent to prison for failing to make any of the money payments dealt with in the Bill, the justices shall review his circumstances, and if they decide to commit him to prison they shall only do so after their attention has been specifically directed to the question of imprisonment. Secondly, the Bill provides that in wife maintenance and affiliation cases, and in rate cases, imprisonment shall not be ordered if the court, after reviewing the defaulter's circumstances, form the opinion that his failure is not due to wilful refusal or culpable neglect.
The question may be asked whether the Bill will not impose additional and unnecessary work on the courts, and perhaps some additional expense. The answer is that it may impose additional work on some courts, but that such additional work is by no means unnecessary. As the findings of the Committee show, evils are liable to occur because the existing system does not allow sufficient opportunity to the courts to deal with the issue of commitment warrants in a judicial manner. The issue of a warrant ordering a man's committal to prison is a very serious step, and no one ought to begrudge time spent by the courts in preliminary consideration before taking this step. If it be true that some courts are so busy that the adoption of the additional procedure provided for in the Bill will cause serious inconvenience to the arrangement of their work, the answer is that the sittings of a court of justice ought to be arranged so as to enable all the steps to be taken which are necessary for the proper administration of justice.
A procedure which is desirable in the interests of justice must not be shortened in order to suit the convenience of the court; on the contrary, the time of the court must be arranged so as to suit the requirements of justice. Reasonable despatch in the conduct of business is no doubt a virtue; but it is possible that in some of the busy courts of summary jurisdiction there is a danger of over haste, with the result that it may be difficult in all cases to be certain that justice is done, and still more difficult to convey to defendants the impression that justice is done. Even if a man has

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a poor case it is desirable that he should be given time and opportunity to state it fully. To make certain that justices shall fully consider all cases where a question of imprisonment for non-payment of money arises is the main object and effort of this Bill. I am afraid that I have taken up much of your Lordships' time in explaining in some detail the provisions of this Bill, hit as it is hoped to complete the Bill in all stages, both in this House and another place, before we rise, I think that my doing so will facilitate that end.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, I should like on behalf of myself, and of those with whom I am associated on these Benches, to express our deep gratitude to the Government for bringing in this Bill. It is a measure which, I am sure, will be warmly welcomed by men of all Parties and by the whole country. The noble Earl has moved the Second Reading in what we shall all agree was a most comprehensive speech of great lucidity. He had a large amount of ground to cover, and he has done so most exhaustively. His full exposition will be of great value to your Lordships' House and to the country.
The noble Earl referred to the debate which took place here on February 27 last, when I had put down a Motion dealing with the whole problem, and on that occasion complete unanimity was achieved in this House. The noble Earl was good enough to say kind words about my speech and my Motion, and I greatly appreciate what he has said, but I do riot take credit to myself for the unanimity achieved on that occasion. It. was achieved by the compelling human appeal of this problem. I found, myself, that any language which I had used was surpassed in strength by great legal authorities like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Merrivale, and the noble Marquess, Lord Reading. They emphasised in the strongest possible terms the need for reform, and the urgent need for reform, in order that the present system, which has continued far too long, should be brought to an end. Also, as the noble Earl has said, the most reverend Primate on that occasion spoke forcefully in the same sense, and following that debate the Press of the country was absolutely
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unanimous in saying that something ought to be done. In particular there was a powerful article in The Times not very long after the debate in this House.
The Government on that occasion, through the noble Earl who had the debate in charge, promised to take the matter into favourable consideration. They have done so, and as a result they have now brought forward this Bill. It is the urgent need for reform which has caused the Government to do this, and I wish to say that as far as we on these Benches in this House are concerned, we will do all that we can to facilitate the smooth and swift passage of this Bill through your Lordships' House. The noble and learned Marquess, Lord Reading, spoke in a similar sense for the Liberal Peers, 'and noble Lords on the other side spoke also in a similar sense. Therefore I think we may take it that the quick passage of this Bill through your Lordships' House is assured, and speaking with some confidence—and I have grounds for what I say—I believe that the same thing will happen in another place and that the Bill will also pass through there rapidly.
It is, as the noble Earl pointed out, amazing and Appalling to think that altogether, if we add to the 20,000 or so persons imprisoned under the three heads which he named to your Lordships those who are imprisoned through failure to pay County Court debts, who usually seem to number between 3.000 and 4,000 persons a year—and this Bill does not deal with them because the Committee's Report did not deal with them—we arrive at the result that pretty nearly one half of the people in the prisons in the course of a year are there because they are unable to find a sum of money which for the most part is a very trifling amount. That is what The Times in its article referred to as a "blot on our civilisation." Those are strong words. The Times said that it is an abuse of punishment that, because these persons are unable to find sum of money which for the most part is quite trifling, they should have inflicted upon them the terrible penalty of imprisonment.
As the Committee said in their Report this Bill should reduce by many thousands a year the numbers of those going to prison for failure to find money under the three or four heads with which the

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Bill deals. I will venture to suggest that when the Bill is fully in operation it may well be that this measure will keep out of gaol perhaps somewhere about 10,000 persons a year who would otherwise be put in gaol for these quite minor offences, the actual offence being the inability to find a trifling sum of money. When we think of the incalculable saving in human suffering, not only for the people involved but for their relatives and friends, it becomes perfectly clear that there is an overwhelming case for Parliament to do something.
In particular I rejoice that this Bill deals with the question of imprisonment for rates. I may be too optimistic, but I think that the clause which is in this Bill should to a very large extent bring to an end imprisonment for rates. Every year somewhere about 3,000 people—which means on the average about ten persons a day leaving out Sundays—are taken to prison because they are unable to pay their rates and in the vast majority of cases, practically all cases, not through any fault of their own but through sheer poverty. I believe it is the case that when the Departmental Committee investigated these matters there was not one single Prison Governor who gave evidence who thought that imprisonment for non-payment of rates was justified. Cases have been known of rate collectors actually paying the rates out of their own pockets so as to prevent some poor person being haled off to gaol. That may be very creditable to the rate collectors, but it is descreditable to the system which brings about such an extraordinary state of things.
There has been a book published in the past month by Dr. Unwin, who is the head of Cambridge University Settlement in South London. He has been investigating some of these cases. There was one particularly poignant case of an old age pensioner, a poor man nearly blind, trying to find things and unable to do so. It was proved, according to this book that after he had paid his rent, he and his wife had 14s. a week to pay for food, coal, light, heating and rates. He could not do it, and he was taken off to gaol. It is time that that kind of thing was stopped, and this Bill will stop it. Other cases which I might bring before your
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Lordships, but I do not think it necessary, will be stopped by this Bill. Suffering of this kind, the result only of the crime of poverty, ought to be brought to an end.
Let me in conclusion quote from The Times article:
"In and out of prison goes constantly throughout the whole year a steady stream of men and women who have not been guilty of any crime, as that term is ordinarily understood."
Then, referring to the debate in your Lordships' House in February, and urging legislation, they say:
"Meanwhile the imprisonments go on as before and will continue until those steps are taken which humanity demands."
Well, thanks to the Government for bringing in this Bill, those steps are being taken now, and there is every hope that before we adjourn for the Autumn Recess this Bill will be on the Statute Book. It is very difficult to see on what grounds the Bill can be opposed or criticised. If it is said by some that the Bill might go further, that applies to every Bill I have ever heard of. It goes a long way. It does a great deal, and incorporates a very great percentage of the recommendations of the Departmental Committee. If it went further—and I can quite see the Government's point—there would be some risk perhaps of its becoming controversial, and, if it were controversial, at this stage of the Session it could not pass.
I do not think, either, that the Bill can be criticised on purely legal grounds. I say that for two reasons, and in the first place because the Departmental Committee, on whose findings the Bill is based, contained gentlemen of eminent legal qualifications and gentlemen who have had profound experience of these various problems. Then again, this Bill has been prepared in the Home Office, and the Home Secretary, Sir John Simon, is one of the greatest lawyers of our time. I think we may take it that it is scarcely possible to cavil from the legal point of view at a Bill for which he has in a sense that special responsibility. I cannot think that any noble Lords in your Lordships' House, or any honourable members in another place, would take upon themselves the responsibility of killing what I will call this merciful measure, which will do so much

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to help those who cannot help themselves. This is pre-eminently a Bill to help the helpless. The noble Earl who introduced it has in the course of his life shown practical sympathy with those unfortunate human beings who have come within the measures of the law. He has devoted his time and abilities from time to time to helping them, and I think it will afford him peculiar satisfaction that he is in charge of this Bill which will do not a little but a great deal to lessen human suffering.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, it must be a source of some satisfaction to your Lordships that this much needed and unduly delayed reform had its origin in your Lordships' House. I had the privilege in December, 1932, of introducing this matter to your Lordships' attention, and I have to admit at once that the Gov-eminent, as soon as the facts were put before them, responded immediately to my request that a Committee of Investigation should be established. That Committee was set up in due course. We have watched the progress of this inquiry with a good deal of anxiety, and waited impatiently for the Bill that is now presented to your Lordships' House.
I do not need to recite any of the details or to say any further word about it except just this, that especially to those of us who sit on these Benches it is a source of anxiety, tragedy almost, that the peak of unemployment in the nation always corresponds with the peak of those who go to prison for nonpayment of debt in various forms. There is something peculiarly odious in the fact that the torture of prison is added to the agony of unavoidable unemployment. Because we think this measure will help to remedy that, we promise to give the Government every possible support we can to get it passed into law this Session. This year is one when we ought to rejoice to remove from the Statute Book some of these limitations which mean suffering to our fellow human beings. If this Bill is passed, as I pray it will be passed—and I appeal to your Lordships to give it all the assistance you can—the result will be that thousands of decent people will be saved from suffering in the future.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I am sure it must be very gratifying that this measure has met with so much approval on all sides of the
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House. Your Lordships will remember that this subject has been brought up on more than one occasion, and it was brought up on the initiative of the noble Lord who sits opposite. While I cannot give him the full credit for the legislation which has been brought into being, still I should like to pay tribute to the manner in which he introduced the subject, and I feel that he, as much as anybody else, has the right to feel that he has had a hand in the enactment, as will shortly be the fact, of this legislation.
The noble Lord who has just sat down has spoken on this matter in terms which we should expect of him. This will be a measure which will, I think, be a benefit in all parts of the country. I should like also to endorse what the noble Lord opposite said, that he was gratified to see my noble friend Lord Feversham in charge of this Bill. My noble friend has occupied himself for many years in these matters, and I know he is feeling great satisfaction in that he has the opportunity of piloting this measure through your Lordships' House. I sincerely hope it will rapidly pass through all its further stages in this House, and that it will have an equally smooth passage in another place.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CURRENCIES AND EXCHANGE.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government whether they will consider the desirability of taking steps to deal with currencies relative to the exchange problem, more especially in view of the fact that owing to the amount of frozen money the assets of the Treasury are considerably affected; and move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I have been asked by certain people to put down the Question that stands in my name. Before going into detail, I ought to say they are very much alarmed at the condition of affairs which prevails in many parts, in fact in all parts, of the world, as a. result of frozen credits due to the unsatisfactory condition of the exchanges. At the same time, undoubtedly there has been some improvement in that condition of affairs since last the matter was raised in your Lordships' House, and I think it would

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be unfair if great credit for that improvement were not given both to His Majesty's Ambassadors and to the Government officials in the three large Departments concerned—namely, the Foreign Office, the Treasury, and the Board of Trade.
I felt, before saying anything in your Lordships' House this afternoon, that I ought to give the noble Earl who is going to reply some idea of the examples which I was going to quote of cases where a large amount of British capital was involved, because I did not want to act the part of a leather-jacket and traverse the whole pitch of the world. For that reason I felt I should only quote three instances. The first one is the place where there is probably most frozen British capital, and that is the Argentine. We are fully aware, of course, that the Committee appointed by the President is entirely favourable to us in many respects, but it now depends on how these conditions are going to be carried out. The Argentine itself must have learned a certain amount from the fact of the failure of their loan over here, because, so far as their railways are concerned, which are practically run entirely by British capital, if their credit is not to be permanently affected they will have to do something to release some of their money over here.
This Question of mine has been framed for a dual purpose. First I want to show the large amount of capital which is lost to the Treasury. Secondly, it is framed to safeguard and protect, so far as possible, the large amount of British capital invested all over the world and at present locked up owing to the unsatisfactory condition of the exchanges. This capital should not be considered, I think, as the property of certain investors. It originated from the earnings and savings of our country. It is truly national property, and deserves every possible protection from every Government in this country, for the country cannot afford to lose its savings. It may be said that we in this country are unwise to invest any capital in any foreign country, but I do not think that would be the view of many in your Lordships' House. Indeed it has been the practice in the last few years for the Governments of this country to assist foreign countries by means of loans owing to the depression which has ensued since the War.
I leave the Argentine for a moment, and pass on to another country which, until the last few years, has always upheld its obligations. I want to ask the noble Earl, especially, what is the position as regards Chile. There a large amount of British capital is involved, and by the loss of the interest on that capital the Treasury also loses a large amount of money. I understand that the Chileans sent over a delegation to this country to talk with our Foreign Bondholders' Association. They suggested that on their Government obligations they should pay 50 per cent of their debt and that the other 50 per cent should go to liquidate the bonds themselves. T understand—the noble Earl will probably tell me—that our people over here in the Foreign Bondholders' Association strongly objected to that arrangement. I should be glad to hear whether a solution has been reached on the question or not.
There is, lastly, on the American Continent another case which has to deal with the question of exchanges. As we all know, Australia and New Zealand, both in their public and private undertakings, have never failed to act up to their obligations. Unhappily, Canada has not been quite so fortunate, because, so far as their private undertakings are concerned, they are to a certain degree mixed up with a foreign country—namely, the United States of America. There is one undertaking in Canada which you can hardly call a private undertaking, because it is involved very largely as a Government concern; I refer to the Canadian Pacific Railway. A large part of its primary stock—I understand it is 97 per cent.—is held in this country and that company is involved in payments to other railway lines in the United States of America. I understand that our officials here are, at the present moment, somewhat concerned as to how far they are involved in the United States. I would ask the noble Earl who is to reply whether he can tell us whether or not we have been approached to deal with this whole question so far as the American continent—I include South America as well as North America—is concerned, and to see if we cannot devise some scheme to make more satisfactory the condition of exchanges in that part of the world. Those who asked me to put this Question down realise the fact that our payments next year are going to be very much

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greater than at the present time, and it would be pleasant, at all events, to know, both for the private individual and for those grasping people the Treasury, that they are going to get more money without putting a bigger burden on this country. I beg to move.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Louis, I think it will be agreed by your Lordships that the noble Earl who has just resumed his seat has introduced a good hot weather subject, also that it is, despite the weather, a subject of very great importance. The noble Earl, in what perhaps he will allow me to describe as his most interesting speech, dealt with three particular cases. I propose in my few remarks to deal with no actual cases, but only with one or two general principles. The noble Earl has performed the great service of loosening the single stone which brings down the avalanche, and I shall attempt to supply the avalanche by dealing with this question from the point of view of broad principles. I gave the noble Earl, Lord Stanhope, some very brief preliminary notice of what I was going to say, and I am sure, with his great knowledge of these matters and his great experience, he will be able to answer to the satisfaction of your Lordships.
The subject which the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, has introduced deals with the questions of currency and exchange. I believe that the question of the stabilisation of the world's currencies is of tremendous importance to this country as a great trading nation, and that the greatest service the Government can do is to press forward with a sound system for the stabilisation of international exchanges; but if that stabilisation means that we are going, once more, to be cooped up in the strait-jacket of the gold standard, I submit to your Lordships that will be disastrous. I believe the majority of business men, trade anion leaders, and others in this country, and especially the younger generation of business men, and the younger generation of bankers, would agree that it would be an unmitigated disaster to go back to the old gold standard. That standard was bad enough when the rules were observed, before the days of huge international indebtedness, of gold hoarding, and of restrictions on foreign exchange and
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foreign trade. I submit it is quite impossible to go back to it now.
I will trouble your Lordships with a very few of the more recent statistics to show how the countries which remained on gold have fared, compared with those who have gone off gold and are now within the sterling bloc, including the countries to which the noble Earl referred. The trouble is that certain of the bank presidents and Central Bank governors who attend the meetings of the Bank of International Settlement at Basle, and who come from the countries on the sterling basis, will insist on flirting with the idea of going back to gold. They have encouraged the old orthodox economists in the gold standard countries to cling to that out-of-date standard, with results that you see in Belgium, where the country was nearly ruined by remaining on gold far too long.
I believe we need an authoritative declaration now from the Government. Let them speak as a Government intending to govern, and say that they have no intention of going back to the gold standard at all under the conditions now ruling. We now know that the modern need for a currency, national or international, is not only that it should keep the price level reasonably stable, but that is shall be capable of expansion to keep pace with the steady increase in production, national and international. Otherwise we get that modern evil, deflation, which brings with it cuts and economies and reduction of purchasing power, and that modern anachronism, hunger and poverty in the midst of plenty. The present Government, or its immediate predecessor, the present Coalition Government was formed for the purpose of keeping Britain on the gold standard, and I cannot refrain from reminding your Lordships of the terrible prophecies that were made of what would happen if we abandoned the gold standard. Everything, we were told, would be ruined; the English pound would be worth nothing; all prices would rise. We were told this not only in this country, but by the orthodox economists in other countries. Well, since we have abandoned gold, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Leader of the House and other Ministers have been very fond of telling us that the position of this country has steadily improved, and

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so has the position improved in certain other countries also on sterling and off gold. Of course, that is the British Government's fault we will be told. Some other countries have done better than we have. They have benefited from the presence of the present Government in Britain, I suppose! Sweden, which, I am sorry to have to remind your Lordships, has a Labour Government, has done even better than we have. The unemployment figure in Sweden now is better than the pre-War figure. It represents three quarters of one per cent. of the population.
Now, compare that with the position in other countries still on gold. I will trouble your Lordships with a few figures which have just been produced and which, I think, are of sufficient interest to quote. Before we consider the case, however, of the sterling countries, let us consider the case of Belgium, a country in many ways on all-fours with ours, with a Colonial Empire, and with a closely-settled population, dependent on her industries and very largely on her overseas trade. Belgium was nearly ruined by clinging to the gold standard. The wholesale price index rose in Belgium—here is something for those advocates of the gold standard who talk about stability and sound currency to answer—from a basic figure of 100 in 1914 to 744 in 1926, then to a peak of 851 in 1929, falling back to 470. In the boom year of 1929 it went up to 850 and during the years of deflation it fell to 470. The retail price index rose to 618 in 1926 as compared with 119 in 1914. It then rose to 875 in 1929, but in the slump fell to only 660, with the result that anyone could prophesy.
The cost of living in Belgium before they went off gold was 15 points higher than in 1926, and unemployment—these figures, I submit, are very striking indeed—during this terrible period rose from 28,000 in 1926 to the fantastic figure of 392,000 in the spring of this year just before Belgium went off gold. That would have happened to us if we had remained on gold. If Mr. Ramsay MacDonald and the present Viscount Snowden and others had had their way we should have remained on gold and we should have gone through this terrible experience that the industrious, hardworking and very businesslike Belgians have passed through. Bankruptcies
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trebled in Belgium, and their so-called sound money finally brought a collapse and the country went off gold. Now they are beginning to look up again. The position in France, Germany and Italy with their so-called gold currencies—I say "so-called" because in Germany and Italy they are only nominal—is notorious.
I am now going to trouble your Lordships with some figures, because one must get down to facts. There has just been published the Statistical Year Book of the League of Nations which gives a mass of most valuable and official figures relating to the cost of living, employment, the index of production and so on. They are a little difficult to follow, but they have been co-ordinated and correlated and reduced to a common denominator by a very able young writer, Francis Williams, of the Daily Herald, with whose writings I have no doubt the noble Earl is familiar. He has a great reputation as an economist though not perhaps as a politician on the other side of your Lordships' House. He has analysed these figures, and they are most remarkable.
In all cases the 1929 figures when the post-War boom was at its height have been taken as 100. There are seven countries which show a distinct recovery from the slump period of 1931–2. Taking the figure of 100 in 1929, Japanese industrial production went down to 91, but has now risen to 136. With the exception of Russia, Japan shows the greatest improvement of all. I do not want to enter into reasons here. I dare say one reason which will be given is that of the present Government at Westminster. In the case of Russia the figure of industrial production in 1934 is 296, nearly three times as much as in 1929. Now I come to Sweden. In Sweden in the slump years 1931–2 the figure went down to 84.5. It is now back to 100. Now we come to our own country. Our lowest point of depression was reached in 1932 with a comparative figure of 83. It is now up to 99.1. It is nearly back to the 1929 figure. I admit that that is very satisfactory as far as it goes. The Danes are level with us, practically back to the 1929 figure. Norway, having slumped down to 78, is now up to 94.3, and Hungary, having slumped to 73.5, is now up to 94.1. So much for the countries who are off gold.
Now we come to countries with Fascist Governments on a nominal gold standard.

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It is necessary to mention Fascist countries separately because it is obvious that the attempts to make a Corporate State and the various restrictions introduced have affected production, and politics of course come into the question here. Germany, with 100 in 1929, had reached a productive output at the end of 1934 of 87, Italy 80.9 and Austria 72.1. Those are the Fascist countries. Now let us turn to the gold bloc countries. France slumped down to 68.6 in 1931, and has now recovered to 70.7. Holland at the end of last year, as compared with the index figure of 100 in 1929, was up to 69.8 compared with our 99.1; Poland, 63; the United States of America (not on gold now), 66.4—there were special factors there because the slump went much lower—and Canada, from a figure of 100 in 1929, went down to 48 in 1933 (a terrible thing for an agricultural and raw material producing country) and is now only up to 74. I submit that those figures are very striking. They show throughout that countries on gold have suffered much more severely than countries that went off gold, and that we have now recovered to a greater extent.
I must now trouble your Lordships with a few figures about employment. I will not deal with the terrible figures of the slump years, I will only take the year 1929, the index year, and the 1934 figures. Again the index figure is 100. In the case of Japan the figure in 1934 was 105.9. Actually there were more people employed than in 1929. The figure for Denmark was 111.5, and for the United Kingdom, 99.9. The figure for this country is slightly up now; this figure is only to the end of 1934 when the Statistical Department of the League of Nations closed their books. The figure for Sweden, 96.2, is also slightly up now. We find therefore that the volume of employment in countries off gold has gone up to nearly the pre-slump figures. Now take the corresponding figures in the Fascist countries. They are: Italy, 69.6; Germany, 86.8, in spite of the tremendous programme of public works and great orders for munitions and armaments; and Austria, 67.1. Now we turn to the gold bloc countries. We are told what a wonderful thing it would be for us to go back to gold. This is what has actually happened. The figures in the gold bloc countries are: France, 72.1 (a new record for all time in France);
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Holland, 69.1; Switzerland, 70.8; Poland, 57.8; Belgium, 74.3; all compared to an index figure of 100 in 1929. As a matter of interest only I may quote the case of the United States of America, which of course is not on gold, where the figure is 78.6.
Those figures, I submit, are conclusive, and the same lesson can be learned from the comparative figures of cost of living and other statistics in regard to all these nations. Countries that have remained on gold have suffered much more severely than those that went off gold. What saved us was that the Government were driven willy nilly off the gold standard. I hope they have learned their lesson. The International Chamber of Commerce has recently met in Paris, and a well-known economist, Professor T. E. Gregory, who may be supposed to speak with authority, fried to stampede the International Chamber of Commerce by declaring:
"Universal stabilisation can only be attained upon the basis of gold. Although fixity of exchange would be obtained if every country did link up with sterling, it is politically impossible to think of France or the United States of America ever agreeing to such proposals."
That is not true, or rather it is one of those dangerous half-truths which do infinitely more harm than downright misstatements.
It is true that neither France nor Holland nor Switzerland nor the United States would be willing to link their currency to sterling so long as the principles according to which the currencies of the British Empire are and will be managed, are not clearly and openly defined. I am not here to criticise His Majesty's Government on this occasion, but I think our position should be defined more clearly than in the past. It is probably true that British public opinion will not allow the Government to return to gold before the gold bloc countries declare their readiness to manage their currencies according to the principles laid down by the Brussels Monetary Conference of 1922; that is to say, in such a way as to "avoid undue fluctuations in the purchasing power of gold." As I have tried to show, especially in the case of Belgium, gold, far from being a rigidly fixed standard, is as elastic as gutta percha where the prices of goods are concerned.

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Those recommendations in 1922 were counsels of perfection, but since then there has been great progress in monetary science. I must remind your Lordships of the work of such economists and students as my friend Dr. Carl Snyder, of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, whose name is well known to the Treasury and to the noble Earl, and the two famous French economists, Dr. Georges and Dr. Edouard Guillaume, of Paris and Neuchâtel. They have shown us precisely how to define the particular method of credit control, national and international, which will keep the price level approximately stable and allow trade and industry to expand at their natural rate of increase. It has been demonstrated by these gentlemen, by my friend Dr. Eisler in Vienna, Dr. H. Bolza and others, that the price level will not remain stable and economic activity will not be able to expand at the normal rate unless the volume of credit—that is, fiduciary circulation of all kinds—is expanded year after year at exactly the same percentage rate at which interest falls due on the existing indebtedness of the country or countries in question. Any expansion of credit beyond the proper percentage rate, such as we are likely to be forced into by the new armaments race, spells inflation, with all the concomitant evils of the inevitably-following period of credit contraction. Any expansion falling below the percentage rate at Which interest is falling due in the respective period means deflation, increased unemployment, a wave of bankruptcies and a catastrophic fall in prices. That is, of course, exactly what has happened now in France, Holland and the other gold countries.
I suggest to the noble Earl that the Government should tell the world quite frankly that we are not going to submit to the proper expansion of sterling credit which we are enjoying now being fatally cramped in order to prevent an outflow of gold caused by the failure of the gold bloc countries to expand their fiduciary currency in the proper proportion. Why should we sacrifice our proper expansion of credit to preserve the gold standard currencies in Holland or France? If they want England to link the pound to gold again, they must put themselves into the position of being able to expand their national credit-volume to the extent
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which is necessary to prevent a further fall of gold prices, and they must undertake to start, by open-market policy operations, the credit expansion necessary to this effect at once. In other words, they have to follow us in an expansion of currency and credit, and not in further deflation. In itself, devaluation of the French and the Swiss franc and the Dutch guilder is not necessary. All these gold bloc countries could start on an expansionist policy to-morrow without devaluation if they were prepared to lose part of their gold reserves.
There is no reason why they should not. Apparently, however, these modern worshippers of the Calf of Gold want us to abandon our managed currency, to abandon our cheap money policy—which the Chancellor of the Exchequer says has helped our trade, and which I admit—and close our doors to the much-needed expansionist policy. Why? In order to preserve the fetish of gold. Above all, they want us to mortgage our Exchange Stabilisation Fund for the purpose of underpinning an out-of-date gold standard system. I understand that the United States have made various proposals recently for conversations or negotiations with us for the purpose of stabilisation, and that they have been refused. I do not know whether this is true or not; perhaps the noble Earl will inform us. I am also informed that the French authorities have made a similar invitation to us, but they, of course, want us to put up with the same or a similar strait waistcoat to that which they are now wearing, and I hope that we shall declare what our policy is.
After all, the international gold standard only operated for forty years before the War. It is quite a modern thing. Then it was operated from London, under a free trade system, with free lending of our surplus capital for developing overseas markets. May I say to the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, that I entirely agree with what he said about foreign lending? It was the only way to proceed in the old days; we had to lend our surplus capital abroad to undeveloped territories, for exporting machinery, and so forth. During the last twenty-five years we have only been on gold for ten years, and then it has worked very badly and inefficiently.
Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer declares that we are not ready to con

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sider stabilisation, which I understand was his last declaration. What are the bankers doing? The members of the Bank of International Settlement are apparently working independently, seeking to stabilise round about the present exchange values, but without the dollar; that is, to stabilise our currency with the Dutch, the Swiss and the French currencies and others, using our Stabilisation Fund and abandoning the present advantages, but leaving the dollar free. I suggest that that would be a most dangerous course to take. But the interesting thing is that there seem to be two policies pursued. I say "seem to be," because there may be an explanation, and no doubt the noble Earl has one. At the same time there is one policy that is adumbrated and followed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as head of the Treasury, he says that we are not ready for stabilisation yet. I dare say that he is right, but we ought to work for stabilisation, and on something like the present sterling basis. Then there is the other policy pursued by the central bankers, including our own eminent Governor of the Bank of England, and they appear to be working for stabilisation in order to be able presently all to go back to the gold standard. Which is the national policy, and which one is going to be followed, and who is the master in this matter?
The Labour Party policy is perfectly clear. It was laid down as long ago as 1931 at the Scarborough Conference, our annual conference. If I have your Lordships' permission, I will read it to your Lordships; it is quite brief. In 1931 this policy was laid down by the Labour Party, and I submit that it is the only sound policy for this country to pursue:
"This Conference expresses the conviction that the aim of monetary policy should be to stabilise wholesale prices at a reasonable level."
There are some words that follow which I leave out because they are not relevant to this discussion. It goes on:
"It would, therefore, condemn either currency inflation or any fresh attempt at deflation in order to force sterling back to the old gold parity. It recommends that this country should take the initiative in causing an International Conference to be called with the object of arriving at a concerted monetary policy which will enable the world's resources to be made available for the peoples who to-day are starving in the midst of plenty."
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That is the official policy of the Labour Party, which has not been departed from and which I submit is a perfectly sound policy for this country to pursue. But we must state what our present Government's policy is and make it plain to the whole world. I believe that if we do that there will be an opportunity of having a more reasonable currency system at work internationally in a few years.
There are very powerful influences working in France, Holland, Czechoslovakia and the other gold bloc countries to come off the gold standard. When I was in New York in 1932 I ventured to suggest that America might find it expedient to come off the gold standard. There was a tremendous uproar. I made the remark at a public function; it was reported in all the newspapers and was made headline news. Then I received great praise from the people who depended on overseas trade, and great abuse from those representing the bond-holding interests generally. But America came off gold, as I believe was inevitable. France will eventually come off gold, and then Holland, Switzerland and other countries will do the same, and will benefit enormously when they do. But why not do it in an orderly way? Why should they invite a catastrophe by delay, as in the case of Belgium?
We have the oldest tradition of foreign lending and banking, as the noble Earl reminded your Lordships, of all the countries in the world. Speaking, I hope without undue pride, as an Englishman, I say that our bankers are the most honest in the world. Fewer bankers go to gaol in this country in a century than in any other country, and not only because they are not found out. By our very high tradition in the past we led the way in international lending and foreign monetary operations, and our prestige is enormously high. If we could only get away from this fetish of gold and learn from our recent comparatively happy experience of sterling, then I believe that we could give a lead to the whole world which would do more than anything else to help the restoration of international trade and commerce.
If this Government, with its financial prestige—I am not going to talk about its prestige in other directions—would take a line and stick to it, and give a lead, I believe that the policy which I have quoted could be carried out. Since

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that Labour Conference at Scarborough, the World Economic Conference has met. It was not properly prepared for. It met in a jazz atmosphere, with cinematographs and limelights, and with the Prime Minister posturing and all that sort of business, but if another and more business-like Conference, such as the Brussels Conference of 1922, could be called, and we could give a lead, I think good results would follow. I have not followed very closely the line of argument of the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, but I think my remarks have been relevant to his Motion. He has told us some of the evil results of the present state of affairs, and I have ventured to suggest a remedy.
EARL PEEL: My Lords, I have listened with great interest to the speech of the noble Lord. It illustrated many things, and among others the fine liberty which we enjoy and the way in which we hate confining ourselves too closely to the questions put down for us. Nevertheless, I listened with great interest to the statistics which were so liberally given to us by the noble Lord in his comparison between countries on the gold standard and those which were not on the gold standard. I do not wish to delay your Lordships on that subject at this moment, except that perhaps I might refer to the Macmillan Report, which dealt very fully with this subject. I do not think we ought to lay all the stresses of the world upon, and draw all the inferences as to the condition of those countries from, the purely monetary question. There are so many other questions which come in. I entirely agree with the noble Lord on one point, in that I hope we are not going to have a. great International Conference again. I believe that nothing whatever did come out of that Conference, and that nothing can come out of a Conference of that kind. The only thing which does emerge is that it has shown how utterly impossible it is for anything to come out of a Conference of that kind. We have gained that valuable experience.
The noble Earl who started the debate did not, I think, give the Government much guidance as to the way in which they should act. His was a rather general invitation to them to deal with this extraordinarily complicated question of the exchanges. I was going, if I might, in only a few words, to say one or two things on that point, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Government
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authorities have indicated that, although the way was hard and difficult, and although a return to the gold standard was at the present moment impossible, yet they looked forward, or rather suggested, that in time we might see a return to the gold standard. I am not talking for a moment of whether a return to the gold standard is a desirable thing. I quite agree with the observation of the noble Lord that in this new world, in this difficult and changing world, it is almost impossible, anyhow, to recreate the conditions on which a gold standard has worked in the past. What has been called "playing the game" of the gold standard was a very difficult thing, and depended upon certain conditions. It depended upon the control which this country exercised of the money market and of finance, and also upon the very remarkable habit which we have acquired, whether by instinct or experience, of reinvesting in those markets where we made our money.
It does seem to me, however, and again I agree with the noble Lord, that it is perfectly hopeless to talk about any return to the gold standard, and that whatever that return may be, it must be an entirely different form of gold standard from that which existed in the past, so long as you have the United States of America in the condition they are. I know nothing about any conversations that have taken place. I can only judge from my own experience in dealing with them, and I understand that there is not the slightest intention, as yet, of the American Government making a more fixed relation between gold and the dollar, or, at all events, that they are going to reserve to themselves power to alter that relation when they like in relation to trade levels in their own country. If you have that condition of mind in the United States, it is hopeless to suppose that you are going to make any stabilisation system with the United States on the basis of gold. One has read the statement made by the President recently. He talks, not so much of a dollar which has particular relation to gold, but of the commodity dollar, of the dollar based on the values of certain leading commodities at the time.
If that is the case, surely we are further away from the gold standard than ever, and it becomes, I would suggest, almost a waste of time to be

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discussing these matters. I think I differ to some extent about what the noble Lord said about young economists, because I notice that one distinguished, and I might say almost venerable economist, Professor Cassel, takes the view that the gold standard is worn out, and he is one of the most distinguished of the older economists. If that is not a practical policy, what are we thrown back upon? I think we have perhaps to learn a great deal as to the exchanges between those countries which have adjusted their currencies to sterling. It bas been very remarkable to those who have followed the stability of the exchanges, that Norway and Sweden, and so on, are practically on a sterling basis, and the only thing one can suggest—I dare say one ought not to suggest anything, because the whole subject is so difficult—is that every attempt should be made by this country to extend that sterling basis to other countries; because, if you compare our course of trade and exchanges with the countries which are wholly, or partially, or are pretending to be, on the gold standard, the extent to which our trade has improved with those countries which are practically on a. sterling basis is very remarkable.
I therefore urge the Government—I do not think they want urging as a matter of fact—to be extremely careful on this question of the return to the gold standard. If they really feel that the conditions which have been laid down more than once by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of returning to the gold standard are not likely to occur, they had better state quite frankly that they do not think that for many years at any rate there is much chance of returning even to a modified gold standard. I think if they said something of that kind it would have a great effect in clearing the air, and indeed indicating to other countries what was the line of policy in monetary matters to be followed by this country.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl who moved this Motion for his kindness in telling me something of what he was going to say and so enabling me to prepare to answer it. Whether my replies will be satisfactory to him I am not quite sure, but at any
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rate they will be much more to the point than they would have been without his consideration. The Question on the Order Paper deals with currencies and with the exchange problem, and those are not quite t he same thing. For instance, in two cases to which my noble friend referred the currency of the Argentine is already definitely linked to sterling, and that of Chile to a large extent is for practical purposes also linked with our currency. As regards stabilisation, I really do not think that I can say very much more than was stated by the Chancellor al the Exchequer some two months ago when he stated that:
"Stabilisation of the currency is one of our ultimate objectives. We are watching, and shall continue to watch, the situation with a view to taking action at any time that it seems likely to bring about useful results."
I think your Lordships will agree that many conditions would have to be fulfilled before we could go much further in the direction stated. The noble Earl, Lord Peel, suggested that we should make a statement that we should never return to stabilisation. That, too, I should be unwilling to do—of course I am not authorised to do so—because conditions in the world are changing so rapidly that it would be quite impossible to forecast what would happen some years hence.
EARL PEEL: I did not put it quite so sharply as that. I said the conditions laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer were such that I did not think it was possible at any rate within any reasonable time for those conditions to be fulfilled.
EARL STANHOPE: I am sorry I misunderstood my noble friend, but I think we are more or less in agreement on the matter. As regards the exchange our difficulties here, as I pointed out last year when the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, raised the question, do not really arise in either the Argentine or Chile owing to the instability of their currency in relation to sterling, but to the heavy fall in the value of the products which they export. Argentine exports principally meat, maize and wheat. Chile exports principally nitrates and copper. The prices of those products are now very much lower than they were when British capital was invested in those countries, and unless and until prices return to a better level, the return on

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British capital is bound also to be at a low rate of interest. We do not believe that prices will remain indefinitely at their present low figure, and that is one of the reasons why we think it would be unwise at this moment to return to the gold standard. My noble friend Lord Liverpool is quite right in saying that it is, of course, to the interests of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the biggest possible return should be received from British capital invested abroad, and that is not only the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as it is of every member of the Government, but it is also the view of every taxpayer. It is quite obvious that the more dividends we receive in this country the lower the rate of tax per pound would be; therefore it is to all our interests that we should receive the greatest possible amount of interest in this country.
I referred last year to the work which is being done by the Council of Foreign Bondholders and by the League Loans Committee. Those two bodies during the past twelve months have been perhaps more active than they have ever been before, and have done most valuable work on behalf of those whose money is invested abroad. Wherever they can reach an agreement with a foreign country without the intervention of the Government, that, I think your Lordships will agree, is the best method of all; but where it is found that they cannot make progress, or that there is some special reason, such as an attempt to discriminate against the British investor, or where the foreign debtor takes unilateral action in defiance of the reasonable expectations of the creditor, then the Government are not slow to intervene. There was a case only a few weeks ago when His Majesty's Government, in concert with the French Government, made strong representations to the Government of Greece, owing to the unilateral default of the Greek Government on the service of its loans since April 1 last.
As regards the Argentine railways, to which my noble friend referred, railways in these new countries are in particular affected by the economic activity of the countries in question. That was proved last week by what happened in regard to wheat. As soon as wheat prices broke, the price of Argentine railways on the Stock Exchange here also became unstable, showing how wheat prices affect
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the value of our investments in Argentine railways, owing to the inter-relation of traffics between them. Now under the agreement between this country and the Argentine of May, 1933, the Argentine Government agreed to accord benevolent treatment to public utility undertakings and other companies in which British capital has been invested. As regards railways, a local committee was set up, and has recommended various ways in which the railways required help. So far, I understand that the President of the Argentine Republic has not given a. decision about the matter, and we do not yet know what effective action will be taken in the Argentine to give effect to the recommendations of that Committee. But I can assure my noble friend that we shall lose no opportunity to press the claims of British investors and the outlook and future of British railways in the Argentine upon the Government of that country in order to see that they receive fair, anti indeed generous, treatment.
As regards Chile, the improvement to which I referred last year has been maintained. In January the Chilean Government felt able to provide that the service of external debt should be partially resumed. The scheme which they proposed was not quite that which my noble friend suggested. What they proposed was that they should set aside all revenue which they received from the copper and nitrate industries, for the purpose of their foreign loans, and that 50 per cent. of that revenue should be devoted to the payment of interest, and 50 per cent. to amortisation. It is not for the payment of 50 per cent. of the interest, but 50 per cent. of the revenue raised is to be devoted to the payment of interest, which of course may be more or less, and I am afraid it is likely to be a good deal less than 50 per cent. of the amount due. That scheme was very strongly objected to by the Council of Foreign Bondholders, and for obvious reasons. If you do not pay interest on your debt, and thereby depreciate its value, of course you can buy it back at a very low price. That was obviously unfair. When the Council of Foreign Bondholders went into the matter more thoroughly, and had discussions with the Chilean representatives who came over to this country, they came to the conclusion that, in the very unusual circumstances which

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prevailed in Chile, the Chilean Government were justified in saying that they could not put forward a more favourable scheme than that contained in the proposals of January last. I gather that the Council of Foreign Bondholders, therefore, agreed that the scheme should be accepted.
As regards the Canadian Pacific Railway, that, I think, is an entirely different matter. As I understand it, the directors of the Canadian Pacific Railway have decided not to pay any dividend or, the preference stock. As I understand it, that, of course, would be solely a matter between the directors and the shareholders of the company, in which neither the Canadian Government, still less this Government, would have anything to say. If it is wrong, it is a matter for the shareholders to set right by calling a special meeting and by dealing with their directors as they see fit. It is not a matter in which the Treasury or the Foreign Office or the Board of Trade could take any part at all.
The feeling of the Government is that au International Committee on the whole question of currency and exchange would suffer the same fate now as that of the. Economic Conference called in 1933. Believing, as we do, that the first essential is to raise the prices of primary products on the market, so that there should be a better return for the producers in countries such as the Argentine and our Dominions, we are attacking the problem in detail. The question of maintaining and increasing the price of wheat, which so materially affects the Argentine, and the price of copper, which affects Chile, are being discussed internationally at this moment, and we hope that some scheme may be arrived at by these, producers which will raise prices in the markets generally to the benefit of those countries and of ourselves. As in other matters, for instance in the question of armaments, and in many matters also of trade, we have found that better progress is made if individual topics are dealt with rather than if a too ambitious programme is attempted.
That is the case, not only from the financial aspect, but also as regards trade. There, of course, we have been able to make bilateral agreements with a whole number of countries. We have materially
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improved the trade of our own country in consequence, and also we have succeeded in getting much better treatment for the redemption of debts due to those who have sold our goods overseas. In a good many cases, some of which I could give to your Lordships if you so desired, we have got foreign countries to set aside sums of money to unfreeze old trade debts standing there, and once again to get the wheels of trade moving. Also we have been following the line that discussions by those who are individually concerned in business usually have far more fruitful results than international committees set up to consider the whole question of the economic position. I do not see in his place either the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition or the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, both of whom always object to the experts. In regard to finance and trade, however, I think there will be very little doubt among other members of your Lordships' House that it is riot unwise to trust the expert where his business interests are concerned, and get him to discuss the matter with those in the same line as himself and come to an agreement if he can. Probably it tends to be a sound agreement, and, if it is overlooked by the Government, as of course it is, probably it not only benefits the trade in question, but also the consumer as well.
I need not deal with trade restrictions, because that is not a matter which any of your Lordships raised. The noble Lord opposite talked about the Labour Party policy of 1931, but I am afraid he is entirely out of date. The Labour policy now is, I understand, that put forward by Sir Stafford Cripps, to promote a great financial crisis in which I suppose everybody will have to be quick-fingered to pick up anything he can—
LORD STRABOLGI: May I venture to correct the noble Earl? I know be is very interested in these matters. When I speak of the Labour Party policy I mean the policy that is laid down and voted upon at our great annual gathering called our annual conference. Sir Stafford Cripps's 'speeches, frequently, I am afraid, misquoted as in this case, only become the policy when they are approved and debated and voted upon at this great gathering.
EARL STANHOPE: I fully understand that, and I understand that the difficulty

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last year was that they could not come to any agreement as to what their policy was. After all, 1931 is four years ago.
LORD STRABOLGI: We have not altered our policy on this point.
EARL STANHOPE: The Labour Party did not come to any agreement last year.
LORD STRABOLGI: It did not need to.
EARL STANHOPE: They will have to do it before they go to the country at the next Election, and I wish them luck. The noble Lord opposite apparently is not going to agree with one of his leaders.
LORD STRABOLGI: The noble Earl is very good-natured. I quoted the policy of the Labour Party with regard to currency and exchange and the gold standard. That has not been altered. It has not been debated. It stands.
EARL STANHOPE: It undoubtedly will have to be debated, and very promptly, because if the plan for a financial crisis takes effect there will be no stabilisation and no equalisation of currencies, because the first thing that will happen will be that our own currency will crash.
LORD SANDERSON: My noble friend is quite correct in calling it the Labour Party policy. The Labour Party policy has not been to advocate a crisis. No one has ever suggested such a thing. Our policy on this question of stabilisation is as laid down in the Party Conference at Scarborough in 1931, as my noble friend has claimed.
EARL STANHOPE: I am quite content to leave noble Lords opposite to settle what their policy is to be. I hope they will make it clear to the country what it is to be because, at any rate, it is not clear to me. The noble Lord, apparently, gave advice to the United States that they should come off the gold standard. Whether he was suggesting that the Foreign Office should send him off as yet another Ambassador to the gold countries to give the same advice, I was not clear, but we do not feel it is our business to interfere in the matter. I am afraid, therefore, we cannot employ the noble Lord in that particular direction. He talked about the Government's financial prestige, and he is quite right. It was not the result of coming off the gold
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standard. It was the result, first of all, of balancing our Budget and paying our way as we went along. That is the difference that exists between us and the Government from which we took over. That is one of the reasons which are making those extraordinary differences between the nations of the world.
It does not depend on whether a country is on or off the gold standard. It depends on a whole variety of circumstances, which I could not go into now even if I had the knowledge. The first one is that countries should pay their way, and until you get a balanced Budget it is impossible for a country to know whether it is going to keep its currency up to a particular figure or not. That is one of the first things which must be settled before you get any real feeling of security in the world, and that feeling of security is necessary before you take any further steps. I agree entirely with all my noble friend Lord Peel said on that matter, and also with what he said in regard to the stabilisation of currencies on sterling. It is quite true that those who have linked their currencies with sterling seem to have been able, as we have, to keep their currencies on a general level in regard to prices, and to have had comparatively few difficulties in regard to exchange from the variations of the currency problem.
But our difficulties in regard to exchange, I should like again to repeat, are very largely due to the fact of this extraordinary fall in the prices of primary products. That is a matter which is really vital before we can get the trade of this country fully going again, and before the Dominions can feel themselves really happy, in view of the vast amount of primary products which they send to this country, often at a price which is entirely unproductive to the producer. I am afraid I cannot lay any Papers about this question, and I am not sure that I have answered as fully as my noble friend would like, but it is an extraordinary difficult question. I hope I have not upset the agreement which has been prevailing throughout the whole of the sitting of this House to-day in contrast with what has been the case during the past few days, but I think, as a whole, we are in general agreement on this question, and I hope I have not said

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anything with which the noble Earl is likely to disagree.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Earl for his reply. There is just one point on which I would like to have more information. He made a reference to the position in Chile and to an agreement which had been arrived at with the Foreign Bondholders' Association. I should be glad if the noble Earl could give me more information on that point.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I can give the noble Earl the actual proposals of the Chilean Government in detail, as contained in a summary of Law No. 5580 of 31st January, 1935. They are: (1), All revenues accruing to the Government from copper and nitrate industries to be delivered to the Public Debt Amortisation Bank as from January, 1, 1935, for External Debt service. (2), No other source of revenue to be dedicated to this object by the Bank. (3), Fifty
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per cent. of such revenue to be applied to pay interest, and in no case shall the payment exceed the rate of interest corresponding to each loan, and remainder to expenses and amortisation of bonds either by purchase in the open market, or by drawings at par. (4), Coupons to be surrendered in exchange for such payments of interest as may be made from time to time on their account. The encashment of one coupon to bring the bond to which it belongs within the future operation of the Law, the terms of which supersede those of the original contract. (5), If any bondholders do not take interest placed at their disposal, these sums may also be allocated by Presidental Decree to amortisation.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: I beg to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at five minutes before seven o'clock.

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Monks and Princes Risborough Water),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Rainham Water).

Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bills:

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Cuddington Joint Hospital District),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (East Surrey Water),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Harpenden Water),

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (South Oxfordshire Water).

And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Croydon Corporation.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

BLACKPOOL IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
WEST RIDING OF YORKSHIRE MENTAL HOSPITALS BOARD (SUPERANNUATION) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.