Sitting of 27 February 1935

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Clacton-on-Sea Pier Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Southern Railway Bill (by Order),
Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  ITALY AND ABYSSINIA.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the success achieved in the preservation of peace by the presence of an international force in the Saar, he will ask the Council of the League of Nations to consider whether an international force might be organised to occupy temporarily the area in dispute between Italy and Abyssinia in connection with the neutral zone now under discussion?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir John Simon): There is no similarity between the situation that existed in the Saar and that which exists to-day on the undefined border between Italian Somaliland and Ethiopia.
  Mr. MANDER: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the arrangements for the neutral zone have been completed?
  Sir J. SIMON: I am afraid they have not been completed, but the matter is constantly engaging attention.
  Mr. MANDER: Is it intended that the Belgian and Swedish officers referred to should take any part in the neutral zone?
  Sir J. SIMON: This is not very closely connected with the original question. It
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  is, of course, not a matter which primarily concerns His Majesty's Government. I understand that some difficulty has arisen as between the Italian and Abyssinian Governments as to whether the Belgian and Swedish advisers should take part.
  Lieut.-Commander BOWER: Would my right hon. Friend be prepared to ask the Council of the League of Nations to consider whether an international force might be organised to occupy temporarily the town of Wolverhampton during the next general election?
  Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the position with regard to the agreement signed in London between Great Britain, France and Italy in 1906 by which it was agreed to maintain the integrity of Abyssinia, and that no Power should intervene in her affairs without the understanding of the other two?
  Sir J. SIMON: The agreement between the United Kingdom, France and Italy respecting Abyssinia, signed on the 13th December, 1906, is still in force. Under this agreement, which has been published as Command Paper No. 3298 of 1907, the three Powers agreed to no-operate in maintaining the political and territorial status quo in Ethiopia, as determined by the state of affairs then existing, and by a number of earlier agreements cited in the above-mentioned tripartite treaty.
  Mr. MANDER: Has the attention of the Italian Government been called recently to the terms of this treaty?
  Sir J. SIMON: Oh, yes.
  Captain MACDONALD: Are the signatories to the agreement in constant touch at the present time with a view to maintaining the status quo?
  Sir J. SIMON: Yes, communications, of course, are passing. It is fair to say that the difficulty is that the frontier between Ethiopia and Italian Somaliland has never been delimited.

  RUSSIA (BRITISH DEBTS).
  Commander OLIVER LOCKERLAMPSONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make any visit to the Soviet Government con-

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  ditional upon its agreement to discuss the debts still due to private British nationals?
  Sir J. SIMON: I cannot add to the reply which I gave in answer to a question by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition on the 25th February.
  Commander LOCKER-LAMPSON: Can my right hon. Friend say whether he is likely to be able to give an answer in the near future?
  Sir J. SIMON: I referred to that matter in the reply to which I have just referred, and to that reply I cannot at present add anything.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the people of this country would appreciate very much a visit to Moscow by the right hon. Gentleman?

  PROPOSED AIR AGREEMENT.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is proposed to negotiate the air pact on the lines of the British Draft Disarmament Convention, permitting 500 aeroplanes to the United Kingdom, France and Italy, and 150 to Belgium; whether 500 would be allocated to Germany; and whether it is intended that this shall be an interim arrangement pending the complete abolition of military aviation under Article 35 of the proposed convention?
  Sir J. SIMON: The discussion of the proposed air agreement has not reached a stage at which I can make any statement in regard to it.
  Mr. MANDER: Will not the British draft convention be a very relevant document when these discussions take place?
  Sir J. SIMON: I am not denying its relevance; I am only saying that I cannot make a statement about it.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    DOCKS.
    Brigadier-General NATIONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number and location of graving docks and floating docks, respectively, capable of taking ships of the following classes: Hood, Nelson, Royal Sovereign, Queen Elizabeth, Renown, and Courageous?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Sir Bolton Eyres Monsell): My answer is confined to docks in the British Empire. The "Hood" can be taken in 11 graving docks and 3 floating docks. The corresponding figures for the "Nelson" are 12 and 2, for the "Royal Sovereign" and the "Queen Elizabeth" 13 and 5, for the "Renown" 12 and 3, and for the "Courageous" 23 and 3. The docks are situated at Devonport, Portsmouth, Rosyth, Tilbury, Avonmouth, Belfast, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Southampton, Malta, Gibraltar, Durban, Esquimalt, Quebec, New Brunswick, Bombay, and Singapore.
    Mr. GEORGE HALL: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of them come under the direct control of the Admiralty?
    Sir B. EYRES MONSELL: I think probably all those docks that I have mentioned.

    MALTESE SEAMEN (REPATRIATION).
    Mr. G. HALLasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that on 1st September last four Maltese were signed on at Malta for the R.F.A. "War Diwan"; that upon reaching Devonport on 14th January they were discharged with the remainder of the British crew but were allowed to work by the vessel until 6th February; that they were then offered repatriation to Malta by the R.F.A. "Bacchus," provided they paid their own fares from Devonport to Chatham and also for their food from Chatham to Malta; that, as they were practically destitute, the cost of their fares to Chatham was advanced by the Plymouth representative of the National Union of Seamen; and whether he will have inquiries made into this matter and at the same time make provision for repayment to the National Union of Seamen of the £4 17s. advanced for fares?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Lord Stanley): I am informed that the statements in the first three parts of the question are correct. These men, who had been signed on to replace English seamen, landed sick, were paid their full wages at National Maritime Board rates, and were signed off at Devonport in accordance with the terms of their engagement, which provided for their discharge in the United Kingdom. No further obligation rested

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    on the Admiralty, but as an act of grace they were offered passage home in the "Bacchus" from Chatham. They could well afford to pay their railway fare from the full wages received, and the union will no doubt be able to recover from them the sum advanced. Although the Admiralty have no responsibility in the matter, consideration is being given to the possibility of preventing a similar occurrence in future.

    HIS MAJESTY'S SILVER JUBILEE (CELEBRATIONS).
    Captain P. MACDONALDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether arrangements will be made to enable Members of Parliament and their wives to witness the Naval Review to be held at Spithead in July; and, if so, whether he is yet in a position to indicate what will be the nature of these arrangements?
    Sir B. EYRES MONSELL: Arrangements for the accommodation of official guests, who will naturally include Members of Parliament and their wives, at the Naval Review next July are at present under active consideration, but it is not yet possible to make a detailed announcement on the subject.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the First Commissioner of Works whether he contemplates making any special arrangements, and, if so, of what nature, in connection with the Royal parks, to mark the celebration of the Royal Jubilee?
    The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): I have no doubt that the Royal parks will be largely used during the forthcoming Silver Jubilee for their normal purpose of providing rest and recreation for the public, as well as for certain special purposes in connection with His Majesty's drives, the chain of bonfires and the police review. I have given permission for an unofficial thanksgiving service to be held in Hyde Park on the afternoon of Sunday, 12th May, but beyond this no permission has been given for any arrangements of an exceptional character.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: Would the Minister consider flood lighting, as was done on the previous occasion with great success?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Flood lighting is already announced for the lake in St. James's Park.
    Mr. THORNE: In consequence of the number of men who are being called upon to work in Hyde Park on Jubilee Day, will the Minister see that those men get an alternative day off later on?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I would like notice of that question.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: Will the Minister floodlight part of the Royal parks as an experiment, because improved lighting is very much needed for the Royal parks?
    Mr. GRUNDYasked the Prime Minister whether steps have yet been taken to recommend to all employers of labour the payment of wages on the national holiday to commemorate the twenty-fifth year of His Majesty's accession; and whether he has received a satisfactory response on the subject?
    The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Mr. Baldwin): I would refer the hon. Member to the, answer given to him by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 4th February. The Government are confident that employers are fully sympathetic to the desire that wages should be paid as far as circumstances permit, and that they will show every possible consideration for their work-people.
    Mr. THORNE: May I take it that the right hon. Gentleman heard the reply given to my supplementary question just now by the First Commissioner of Works, in regard to the people who will have to work in Hyde Park on Jubilee day; will he be good enough to advise the Government to link these people up with the other Government employés?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I think my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works asked the hon. Member to put that question on the paper. The intentions of the Government were made perfectly clear. So far as Government employés are concerned, payment will be made.
    Mr. WEST: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the employers give something more concrete than sympathy?
    Mr. BALDWIN: It is only fair to remind hon. Members that there is the

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    utmost good will in this matter and that discussions are proceeding between employers and the trade unions concerned. There is, however, very large number of employers in this country who will find it impossible to pay the money that they would be only too glad to pay if they were able.

    KENYA.
    Captain GUESTasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that there has been a large deficit on the budget of Kenya Colony for six successive years, and that the amount of the annual deficits, after showing some decline until 1934, is expected to increase again in respect of that year; whether these deficits have been realised in spite of very heavy taxation and have been accompanied by a progressive decline in the commerce of the Colony and in the acreage of land under European settlement; whether he is aware that these facts have aroused alarm and resentment among taxpayers, who have no executive control over the expenditure or over the revenue of the Colony; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): Kenya, in common with other primary producing countries, has suffered a serious decline in prosperity during recent years. But I am not without hope that the development of gold mining and other activities may gradually repair the situation of the colony. The budget for the current year anticipates a surplus; the estimated Customs revenue for last December showed the highest figure since 1930, and the returns for the first month of 1935 afford similar evidence of an expansion of trading activity. In the absence of drought and locusts, there are reasonable grounds for supposing that the anticipated budget surplus may, in fact, be exceeded. As regards the latter parts of the question, this House has very definitely expressed the view that the general recommendations of the Joint Select Committee ought to be accepted.
    Captain GUEST: Arising out of that reply, most of which I had not the pleasure of hearing, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a declaration of
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    rights, supported by the elected members for Kenya, was circularised to all taxpayers demanding the right to control their financial affairs, and that if some step is not taken, this will lead to a grave situation and serious alarm
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I was not aware of this document, but the House will very well recollect that the whole of this situation was most closely examined by the Joint Select Committee, that the report of that committee, which was unanimous, was very fully debated in this House, and was, I think, unanimously accepted in all quarters of the House.
    Mr. WISE: Will not the Secretary of State draw the attention of the taxpayers of Kenya to the fact that the deficits from which they are suffering are largely due to the prolific expenditure, almost entirely on their behalf, in the past?
    Captain GUEST: May I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that his dates are not in keeping with the situation, and that the declaration of rights to which I am referring was issued, with the support of the elected members, as late as December of last year?
    Sir P. CUNUFFE-LISTER: I imagined that it was a very recent document, otherwise I should have known of it, but I do not think that in the least alters the importance or relevance of what I said, that the whole of this question of financial control was most carefully examined by the Select Committee, who heard members of the Legislative Council of Kenya and unanimously reported that the situation must be as the committee recommended.
    Major MILNERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any of the native occupiers of land in the European highlands of Kenya have been removed, or dispossessed, since the receipt of the Morris Carter Report; and, if so, how many have received cash compensation and to what approximate average amount?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The Governor informs me that no move has taken place except that recommended in paragraph 811 of the Land Commission's Report. The natives in question are a

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    few scattered Doroba who have now been accommodated in the Northern Frontier Province. They grow no crops and can claim no title to the land from which they have now moved, and no compensation was therefore payable, but their cattle were inoculated prior to the move by Government free of charge. There was no opposition to the move on the part of the natives.
    Major MILNER: Am I to understand that the natives move owing to the action of the Government or that they move voluntarily?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must understand exactly what the answer says. This was a recommendation of the commission. The Government went into it and found that the natives were perfectly prepared to move. There was no opposition on their part to move, and they moved, I presume, because, as the commission said, it was greatly in their interest.
    Major MILNER: How many were in fact so moved?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have not got the figure. The Governor says there were a few scattered Doroba. I could write to the Governor if the hon. and gallant Gentleman really wants to know the actual numbers.
    Major MILNER: The point is that the Government are proceeding, are they not, to move natives having no authority—
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a question.
    Sir ROBERT HAMILTONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is intended by the proposed order-in-council relating to the highlands of Kenya to debar all non-European British subjects from holding any rights in land in that area in the colony; and whether he is satisfied that such action will be in conformity with the reasons for Lord Elgin's ruling in 1908
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: As I stated in a reply on the 14th February, the proposed order-in-council will merely confirm a policy which has not been challenged by any Government in this country since its inception in 1906.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the ruling of Lord
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    Elgin was based on the undesirability of excluding British subjects from access to any area within a British colony, and that therefore he made an administrative order vis-a-vis Indians who were then British subjects, but now that Kenya has become a British colony the natives of the colony a-re also British subjects?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am not sure that I see the relevance of that question. The simple point here is that ever since 1906 the alienation of agricultural land in the European Highlands has been granted only to Europeans. That policy is tantamount to a pledge and it has been followed by every Government since, and I have no intention of changing it.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the position will be changed by an order-in-council which will legalise the position which has hitherto been only by adminstrative order?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I really do not think an order-in-council makes any effective difference. The hon. Gentleman admits that it has been a matter of policy, and indeed a pledge for 30 years that this policy should be followed. All that an order-in-council would do would be to follow that policy.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask whether alienation includes leasing as well as transfer for sale?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I should like notice of that question.
    Sir R. HAMILTONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is intended to provide in the order-in-council, which is to be made in connection with the settlement of native lands in Kenya recommended by the Morris Carter Report, that, African subjects of the Crown will be prevented from obtaining a judicial decision in respect of 'any claims which they may desire to submit to the courts of justice?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The extinction by order-in-council of native rights, other than those held under title, outside the reconstituted and enlarged reserves is an essential part of the general settlement proposed by the commission.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: As a result of that will it be impossible for a native British subject to bring a claim in a British court, and will it also be impossible for the land court, acting on behalf, of natives, to subject a claim to the decision of the court?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Morris Carter Commission and the White Paper issued by His Majesty's Government giving their considered views thereupon. It is an essential part of the whole of the settlement that the Morris Carter Commission has recommended that these claims should be finally disposed of by the carrying out of their recommendations as regards additions to the reserves and compensation.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the settlement recommended by the Morris Carter Commission is not by agreement with the natives, but is imposed on them, so that it makes it rather different from what it would be if there were an agreement?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Obviously the whole object of the Morris Carter Commission was to get the most considered report as to what was a fair and final settlement of these claims. Of course that is to be carried out by legislation, and if you do not carry it out the whole of the settlement as regards additions to the reserves and everything else goes by the board.
    Mr. PALING: Did not the right hon. Gentleman state last week that these natives would not be removed from the Highlands except by their voluntary agreement, and what voluntary agreement is there if they cannot have a judicial decision on the matter?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: That is a wholly separate and distinct point. I was asked whether, in advance of legislation, a man was going to be removed from a piece of land to which he had a legal title without agreement, and I said "No."
    Sir R. HAMILTONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is intended to sanction the granting of agricultural leases in the native reserves in Kenya to non-natives;
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    if so, whether he will state the proposed maximum duration of such leases; whether the lessee at the termination thereof will be entitled to claim compensation from the lessors for unexhausted improvements; and whether the granting of such leases will require the approval of the native lessors and of the Land Trust Board?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The procedure recommended by the Kenya Land Commission for granting agricultural leases in native reserves is fully described in Part III, Chapter III, of their report. The points raised in the second and third parts of the hon. Member's question will no doubt be dealt with in the ordinance which is now being drafted in Kenya to give effect to the commission's recommendations. As regards the last part, it is proposed by the commission that leases of land under 10 acres shall be arranged by the provincial commissioner after' consultation with the local land board; but that leases of land exceeding 10 acres shall be subject to the veto of the Lands Trust Board or of the chief native commissioner if the board shall have delegated its powers of veto to him.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to have attention drawn to the point about compensation at the end of a lease because the difficulty of obtaining compensation might lead to the lease becoming permanent?

    EAST AFRICA (GOVERNORS' CONFERENCE).
    Major MILNERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will publish or otherwise make available the conclusions arrived at by the recent East African Governors' Conference?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I will arrange to place in the Library a copy of a statement of conclusions issued by the East African Governors after their recent conference.

  PALESTINE.

    ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies under what law persons are retained in prison

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    in Palestine after their sentence has expired; and whether any applications under the Habeas Corpus Act have been made from Palestine.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Section 10 of the Palestine Immigration Ordinance provides that any person against whom an order for deportation has been made, whether consequent upon a sentence of imprisonment or not, may be kept in custody, while awaiting deportation, in such manner as the High Commissioner may direct. I have no knowledge of any applications for a writ of Habeas Corpus.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman give me the date of that ordinance?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The date of the ordinance is 1933, but that is a consolidating ordinance. The provision relating to illegal immigration is in the ordinance of, I think, 1928 or 1929.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there are similar ordinances in. other colonies?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I cannot possibly without notice.
    Mr. JANNER: Will the right hon. Gentleman recommend that those who are being detained should be allowed out on bail in a similar manner to that which is allowed in this country, the bail being merely sufficient to ensure that the people should be found as and when required?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have given several answers on this matter in which I have explained exactly the arrangements about bail which the High Commissioner has enforced. I have complete confidence in the High Commissioner to do whatever is right.

    PORT FACILITIES.
    Mr. SUMMERSBYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the facilities provided at the new port of Haifa are already proving inadequate, especially during the season of citrus exports; whether he has received any recommendation from the Government of Palestine that at least six more berths should be constructed at this port; and whether he has been able to approve such construction?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Yes, Sir. I have recently approved a proposal by the High Commissioner for Palestine to spend a, sum of £10,000 on the preparation of detailed plans for the further development of Haifa Harbour, including additional quay berths and storage accommodation, in order that such plans may be in readiness for execution as demand requires. The question of construction of additional facilities will be considered, when the plans are available.
    Mr. JANNER: Is the rght hon. Gentleman aware that it will take at least three years to complete these new berths, and, in view of the fact that there is such tremendous pressure on the accommodation for the storage of citrus fruits, will he see that these works are taken in hand at once?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: In answer to the first part of the question, I should very much hesitate to accept that estimate as to the time, without the authority of the engineers. I think I have shown that the whole matter has been taken in hand very promptly, because the consulting engineers, who have done admirable work at Haifa, have, already been instructed to prepare plans. The hon. Member will also recall that a considerable work at Jaffa was put in hand some time ago.
    Mr. JANNERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the increased citrus exports of Palestine will necessitate the existence of 7,500 square metres of covered port storage space next winter and an additional 3,500 square metres each following season; whether it is anticipated that it will be possible to provide such facilities at Haifa; and, if not, whether he will now reconsider the advisability of instructing the Palestine Government to permit the construction of an additional port at Jaffa or Tel-Aviv or both?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The High Commissioner for Palestine is well aware of the need for increasing storage accommodation for citrus exports both at Haifa and Jaffa, and extensive measures of improvement, including the provision of additional sheds, are being carried out at both ports as quickly as circumstances permit. I am quite sure that it is unnecessary for me to issue any instructions in this matter.
    Mr. JANNER: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider developing a port at Tel-Aviv?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir. I considered it a long time ago, and saw the site when I was out there. I cannot conceive anything that would be more unsound or uneconomic than to create a port there in view of the fact that there is a manginficant port, capable of great development, at Haifa, and that we are developing the port of Jaffa.

    JAFFA-HAIFA ROAD.
    Mr. JANNERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the trunk road through the Palestine maritime plain, which at present leads from Jaffa and Tel-Aviv to the vicinity of Raananah, _will be completed as far as Haifa before the coming winter; and whether, in view of its value in relieving the pressure on the railways when weather conditions involve the transference of export goods from Jaffa to Haifa, he can state whether its construction is being proceeded with as expeditiously as possible?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No decision has yet been taken with regard to the completion of the Jaffa-Haifa road. I am awaiting the considered views of the High Commissioner for Palestine on this project. The hon. Member is no doubt aware that an extensive improvement scheme is being carried out at the Port of. Jaffa, and it may be hoped that when these improvements have been completed, the necessity for transferring goods from Jaffa to Haifa in periods of bad weather will be greatly diminished.
    Mr. JANNER: Apart from that, does not the right hon. Gentleman know that considerable difficulty has been experienced by the travelling and commercial public along that road; and is he not also aware of the fact that he is cutting off large areas from the ports by not having this road completed? In the circumstances, will he see that the public in Palestine are secured against the possibility of similar happenings to those which occurred last year when the floods were out?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am aware that this road is under consideration now by both the Advisory committee and the High Commissioner.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the railways do not want this road and the settlers do?

    ZANZIBAR (INDIANS).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Zanzibar decrees against Indians acquiring land are now in operation; and, if so, was the approval of the India Office obtained before they were enacted?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I presume that the hon. and gallant Member refers to the Zanzibar Land Alienation Decree. This decree was passed at the end of June, 1934, and was brought into force on the 7th of July last year. The purpose of the decree, which is largely based on Indian legislation, is to provide that Arabs or Africans may not alienate land in perpetuity to others than Arabs or Africans without the consent of the Resident. It does not discriminate against Indians. The legislation was urgently required in order to guard against the danger of eviction on foreclosure, and I approved its immediate enactment without prior consultation with the India Office or the Government of India, though, of course, the India Office was informed of the action taken.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Has the enactment obtained the approval of the India Office seeing that, although in words it is not discriminatory against Indians, it is so in effect?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have had no suggestion of opposition. Indeed, I do not think I could have, because it follows practically word for word the legislation passed in the Punjab in India.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Surely the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the legislation in the Punjab is contrary to British traditions and is not to be found anywhere else?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I really do not think it is contrary to British traditions to give reasonable protection to a native against unfair or unreasonable eviction by a mortgagee. In fact, it was Lord Kitchener who created the precedent for such legislation in Egypt.

    IMPERIAL DEFENCE.(STRAITS SETTLEMENTS GIFT).
    Earl WINTERTONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make any statement with regard to the gift to His Majesty's Government in Great Britain by the Straits Settlements of $500,000 for the cost of the defence of the Empire?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The Governor has informed me that a resolution was proposed by the unofficial members in the Legislative Council of the Straits Settlements on the 18th of February that a voluntary gift of half a million dollars should be made to the British Government, and that this resolution received the unanimous approval of the Council. I would remind the House that this gift is a further contribution from the Colony towards the general cost of the defence of the Empire, and is additional to the contribution of four million dollars which the Straits Settlements have agreed to pay yearly towards the cost of the defence of the Colony. Moreover, it is a second gift, following upon a similar vote a year ago. The thanks of His Majesty's Government have already been expressed by the Governor to the Council, and I am sure that I shall be voicing the opinion of the whole House when I say that this generous gift is warmly welcomed, not only for its own sake, but as a striking indication of good will and of the spirit of responsibility and co-operation in which the Colony approaches problems of common interest to the Empire as a whole.

    TIN REGULATION SCHEME.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any discussions have taken place between the Colonial Office and the Malayan and Nigerian Governments in regard to renewing the tin restriction scheme; and whether, in view of the anxiety that has recently been caused among tin producers and consumers, the Government will make it a condition of any prolongation of the scheme that no individual or director of a company who has participated in the pepper or shellac pools shall represent either Malaya or Nigeria on the International Tin Committee or the Buffer Stock Committee?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No discussions have yet taken place between the Malayan and Nigerian Governments and myself regarding the renewal of the tin control scheme, which, under the international agreement, runs till the end of 1936. As regards the last part of the question, I should certainly regard any person who was proved to have been guilty of any impropriety as unqualified to act as a representative of a Colonial Government. Equally, I am sure, the hon. Member will agree that it would be improper and unfair to assume that any person connected either directly or indirectly with the tin scheme had been guilty of any improper action.
    Mr. LIDDALL: Is it not the case that if the scheme is abandoned British Malaya and Nigeria will be gravely injured, and that many workpeople will be thrown out of employment?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: That is perfectly true, and that aspect of the matter was considered by the World Economic Conference, which recommended unanimously that it was vital to the interests of all tin-producing countries that the scheme should go on.
    Mr. GRENFELL: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, I should like to ask whether, in the event of its being found that there had been improper conduct in connection with these speculations, he will then make a declaration?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a hypothetical question.
    Mr. GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that the Nigerian representative on the International Tin Committee is the chairman of the Anglo-Oriental Mining Company, and that this company is a creditor of Messrs. Rolls and Company, now in liquidation arising from speculations in pepper, he will consider the advisability of taking the appropriate steps to dissociate from the administration of the tin restriction scheme anyone connected with the pepper and shellac pools?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The hon. Member is misinformed. The chairman of the Anglo-Oriental Mining Corporation is not the Nigerian representative on the International Tin Control Committee,

    1115
    but one of the persons appointed by the Tin Producers' Association in an advisory capacity. The Nigerian representatives on the International Tin Committee are all Government officials. The hon. Member has probably seen a statement published in the Press this morning by the Anglo-Oriental Corporation to the effect that it has no interest, nor has it at any time had any interest, in any pool dealing in pepper, shellac or other similar produce.
    Major NATHANasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the British members of the advisory committee to the International Tin Committee are directors or shareholders of any, and, if so, of which, companies dealing in tin in this country?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The advisers to the International Tin Control Committee are appointed, by reason of the fact that they are interested in tin production or consumption, and I think it probable that all the British subjects concerned, both those that are advisers to the International Committee, and those who are advisers to the British and foreign delegations, are interested as directors or shareholders in various tin companies, but I have no full particulars of their interests.
    Major NATHAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman give such particulars as he has?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have not any particulars. I should have thought that, in accordance with the ordinary commercial practice, a general disclosure of interest was sufficient. I think I gave the hon. and gallant Member an answer the other day in which I said that the International Tin Committee did know the companies of which these gentlemen were directors.
    Major NATHANasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the criteria by which the International Tin Committee is guided in reaching a decision as to altering or maintaining the quota of tin production?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The hon. and gallant Member will appreciate that it is difficult for me to attempt to state the criteria which an international body,
    1116
    containing representatives of several foreign Governments, adopts in arriving at its decisions. I am, however, informed by the chairman of the International Tin Committee that the committee, in fixing the quotas of tin production, is guided primarily by the statistical position, and by their estimates of future consumption.
    Mr. LIDDALL: Are not these questions by Members of the Socialist party likely to prove advantageous to speculators?
    Major NATHANasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the private tin pool comprises any members of the advisory committee to the International Tin Committee, or any companies of which they, or any of them, are directors or shareholders; and whether the private tin pool is, or has been, engaged in the sale of pooled tin since the meeting of the International Committee at The Hague on or about 20th February?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am informed that the answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am not in a position to answer the second part of the question. Moreover, I am sure the House will appreciate that if private interests disclose to the International Tin Committee (or its chairman) their holdings in tin in order that this information, given in confidence, may be at the disposal of the committee, it would be most improper of me to make that information public even if I possessed it.
    Major NATHAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman able to say, and will he say, which members of the advisory committee are also parties to the private pool?

  AVIATION.

    ACCIDENTS (IN SPECTORS' REPORTS).
    Captain CUNNINGHAM - REIDasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the Air Ministry have considered the recommendation of the Gorell Committee on Civil Aviation that, in case of accidents to aircraft, the owner and constructor of the aircraft should have the right to be furnished with the report of the inspector of accidents; and whether it is proposed to take the necessary steps to implement this recommendation?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Philip Sassoon): This recommendation has been carefully considered, but there are felt to be serious difficulties in the way of a departure from the present practice, which provides, of course, for the publication of the inspector's conclusions in all important cases.

    SHIPPING SERVICES (USE OF AIRCRAFT).
    Mr. SIMMONDSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether the Air Ministry have taken steps to encourage any British shipping lines to use flying boats?
    Sir P. SASSOON: The Air Ministry are always ready to advise regarding such proposals and, where this can usefully be done, to take the initiative with the appropriate interests. A number of analogous schemes for the use of aircraft in connection with shipping services have in fact been discussed with different shipping companies.
    Mr. WEST: Have any steps been taken to encourage British shipping lines to employ British sailors in place of cheap coloured sailors?

    PROPOSED NATIONAL AIRWAYS BOARD.
    Mr. SIMMONDSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether His Majesty's Government have yet considered the proposals placed before them for the appointment of a National Airways Board?
    Sir P. SASSOON: These proposals are still under consideration by His Majesty's Government, and I am not yet in a position to make any statement in the matter.
    Mr. SIMMONDS: Is the Minister aware that these proposals are very largely supported throughout British aviation and will he therefore give the House his assurance that they will have his most careful consideration?
    Sir P. SASSOON: Oh, certainly.

    AIR DEFENCE (SCIENTIFIC COMMITTEE).
    Captain HAROLD BALFOURasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether consideration has been given to
    1118
    the advisability of an early investigation of the possibilities of countering air attacks by utilising the recent progress of scientific invention; and, if so, whether it is intended to enlist the assistance of scientists outside the Government service?
    Sir P. SASSOON: I must apologise to the House for the unavoidable length of this answer. My Noble Friend decided some months since to appoint a special committee to conduct such an investigation as a matter of urgency, and to obtain for that committee the services of a number of distinguished scientists outside the Government service. This committee is already at work and, with the exception of the Director of Scientific Research at the Air Ministry, its composition is non-official and is as follows:

    Mr. H. T. Tizard, Rector of the Imperial College of Science, Chairman;

    Professor A. V. Hill, Foulerton Research Professor of the Royal Society;

    Professor P. M. S. Blackett, Professor of Physics in the University of London.

    I should like to take this opportunity of paying a tribute to the public spirit which has induced these gentlemen to offer their services. While it is considered that a small committee, will be best equipped to make rapid progress in this most important matter, it is the intention to invite a number of other distinguished scientists to contribute to the investigation whether by giving evidence or otherwise; and the membership of the committee will be enlarged if, as its investigations proceed, it should appear that its work will thus be facilitated. I may add that it is intended in due course to bring the report of this committee before the 'Committee of Imperial Defence.
    Captain BALFOUR: Will the Minister consider the advisability of inviting Professor Lindemann to serve on this committee in view of the attention which he has given to this subject?
    Sir P. SASSOON: An invitation was conveyed to this gentleman several weeks ago.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    SHOT-FIRING.
    Mr. GRUNDYasked the Secretary for Mines whether he will state his intention in connection with the report recently issued on simultaneous shot-firing in coal mines; and whether he is aware of a large volume of expert opinion against simultaneous shot-firing?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Dr. Burgin): I have been asked to reply. There is diversity of opinion on this subject, but there is agreement between the different parties concerned that, in accordance with the recommendations made in the report to which the hon. Member refers, experimental work should be continued on a limited scale with the object of putting the matter to further practical test under working conditions, and arrangements are now being made accordingly.

    HUCKNALL COLLIERY (ACCIDENT).
    Mr. COCKSasked the Secretary for Mines whether he can give any information relating to the Hucknall (No. 1) pit, on 11th February, when a collier, named Wiggerton, fell from the cage for 50 feet into the sump; whether the safety gates were in position on this occasion; and, if not, what action he proposes to take?
    Dr. BURGIN: I have been asked to reply. I am informed that on 11th February, four rippers, having completed their work on the afternoon shift at Hucknall No. 1 mine, were being raised to the surface, when one of them fell out of the cage into the sump. The onsetter had not put the safety gates in position, and has been dismissed. The management of the mine have also issued a serious warning to all the other onsetters and banksmen that in no circumstances must men be allowed to ride in the cages without gates.
    Mr. COCKS: Will the Minister make further inquiries in this matter, particularly as to the reason why the management should have been condoning this practice and why the officials themselves have been travelling in the cage without the safety gates being adjusted, thus conducing to laxity?
    Dr. BURGIN: I will convey those observations to the Minister.
    Mr. PIKE: Will the hon. Gentleman also convey to the Minister the point that if the practice outlined in the hon. Gentleman's question has been carried on, the trade union movement have been very remiss in not bringing the facts to the notice of the authorities?

    BROADCASTING.
    Lieut.-Colonel SANDEMAN ALLENasked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the series of lectures in the programmes of the British Broadcasting Corporation by Professor Rowe, entitled Men and Markets; and whether he intends to prevent such propaganda aimed at undermining the Ottawa Agreements?
    Sir VICTOR WARRENDER (Vice-Chamberlain of the Household): My right hon. Friend will bring to the notice of the governors of the British Broadcasting Corporation the observations of. my hon. and gallant Friend.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    HOSIERY TRADE.
    Mr. CAPORNasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that on 28th January, 1935, over 20,000 persons registered for employment in the hosiery trade were unemployed, and that during the year 1934 over 3,500,000 dozens of hosiery had been imported into this country; and whether the Government cart take any action to prevent persons profiting from the imports and sale of foreign hosiery to the detriment of the unemployed hosiery workers in this country?
    Dr. BURGIN: I am aware of the facts mentioned in the first part of the question. With regard to the second part, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. and learned Member for East Leicester (Mr. Lyons) yesterday, and on 13th November last.
    Mr. CAPORN: Is the Minister aware that the unemployed workers have no means of approaching the Import Duties Advisory Committee and will he request the committee to consider whether it is in the national interest that so many men should be out of employment?
    Dr. BURGIN: A responsibility rests on hon. Members who ask questions about imports to familiarise themselves with the facts as to whether or not imports which may seem large are not very much smaller than a number of years ago. For instance, in 1931 the value of the imports of this article was well over £5,500,000, in 1933 it was £1,645,000, and in 1934, £1,560,000, so that instead of being a large import it is a diminishing factor.
    Mr. LYONS: Is it not a fact that the number of workers unemployed in the hosiery industry in Leicester is greater than it was in 1931 because of this very large flow of imports, and will some action be taken to put into work the thousands of people who could be employed if the industry were properly safeguarded?
    Mr. LEVY: In regard to the reply which the Minister has just given, what consolation are those statistics to the unemployed in the industry
    Mr. CAPORN: Have not the price values of these goods fallen very considerably since 1931, and is not that a fact which anybody giving information to the country should take into account?
    Mr. PALING: Are we to understand from the Minister's statement that, in spite of diminishing imports, unemployment in the industry is increasing
    Dr. BURGIN: Those facts are not necessarily related.
    Mr. WEST: Will the Board of Trade publish a list of names of the people who are importing these goods, so that we may know who are responsible?

    ITALY (IMPORT RESTRICTIONS).
    Mr. ISAAC FOOTasked the President of the Board of Trade what information he can give as to the new restrictions placed by the Italian Government upon the import of pilchards into that country; and whether any representations have been made to the Italian Government with reference to this embargo?
    Dr. BURGIN: I understand that the quantity of pilchards to be admitted up to 31st March next has been provisionally fixed by the Italian Government at 10 per cent. of the quantities imported during the corresponding period of last year,
    1122
    but the quantity to be admitted in subsequent periods has not yet been announced. I am taking steps to obtain full information as to the operation of the new restrictions on these and other goods, and in the light of this information will consider what action can usefully be taken.
    Mr. FOOT: Will the hon Gentleman confer with the President of the Board of Trade as to the seriousness of a reduction to 10 per cent. in a commodity which has always been sent to Italy; and can anything be done to relieve the loss arising from the practical cancellation of foreign contracts and as regards the goods that are now packed for delivery and in transit, since otherwise a very heavy blow will be struck at a distressed industry
    Dr. BURGIN: The hon. Member will understand that the Italian decree relates to a very wide range of commodities, and that representations have to be considered and made over a very wide area. He will, however, be interested to learn that all goods which had already left the country of origin by the 19th February will be admitted into Italy without any condition—that is, everything that was actually in transit by the 19th February. Information is being sought from Rome at the present moment as to the effect and operation of this decree, and when the Department is in full possession of that information we shall know better what steps can usefully be taken. The matter is being most energetically pursued, and its seriousness is fully appreciated.
    Mr. PALING: Does this decree apply to goods exported from this country particularly; and are we to understand that it has been put into operation without any notification to this country whatever?
    Dr. BURGIN: I think the decree applies to imports into Italy generally. It is precisely to points of that sort that our authorities in Rome will have their attention directed.
    Mr. de ROTHSCHILD: Does it apply to imports of hosiery?
    Dr. BURGIN: I could not, without notice, state the terms of the decree, but I should rather imagine that it did. It is a very wide decree, intended to reduce

    1123
    imports into Italy, and I imagine it will cover every article of which the export to Italy is large.
    Mr. LOFTUS: Will the hon. Gentleman consider helping the pilchard industry of Cornwall by restricting the immense imports into this country of tinned pilchards from America?

    MESSRS. JAMES AND SHAKESPEARE, LIMITED (INQUIRY).
    Mr. CLEARYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will represent to the official receiver appointed to investigate the affairs of James and Shakespeare, Limited, the desirability of inquiring into and reporting upon the reasons for the resignation from the board of Mr. W. S. Cleaver, Mr. A. Barrie, and Mr. Otto F. Zieseness in January?
    Mr. MORGAN JONESasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will represent to the official receiver appointed to investigate the affairs of James and Shakespeare, Limited, the desirability of reporting upon the names of those who are described as nominees of certain important banks who were allotted amounts of the preferred and ordinary shares of this company on the issue of September last?
    Dr. BURGIN: The attention of the Official Receiver will be drawn to the matters referred to by the hon. Members.

    LAND DRAINAGE, ISLE OF SHEPPEY (RATES).
    Mr. MAITLANDasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has now been able further to consider the representations in regard to the heavy land drainage rates now being levied by the Lower Medway Drainage Board in the Isle of Sheppey; and whether there is any way in which his Department will assist in the matter by Government grants or otherwise?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): As I have already informed my hon. Friend, I have no authority to intervene in a dispute between a drainage board and its ratepayers. In November last, I confirmed a differential rating
    1124
    order under the provisions of which a portion of the Isle of Sheppey is now rated at one-third of the rate levied on the remainder of the drainage district. I understand that the drainage board have decided to submit for my confirmation a second differential rating order which will have the effect of relieving the greater part of the town of Sheerness of a portion of the rates for which it is now liable. My Department is making a grant of 33⅓ per cent. towards the capital cost of a scheme of work submitted by the catchment board for the reconditioning of the Upper Medway, which is estimated to cost £144,000. Within the last week an offer of a grant has been made of the same percentage towards a second scheme, estimated to cost £275,000, for the reconditioning of the Lower Medway.
    Mr. MAITLAND: Can the Minister say how much of the amount which he last mentioned is to be spent on the Isle of Sheppey, and on Sheerness in particular?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I understand that about £30,000 of the cost of the second scheme will be spent on the sea defences of the Isle of Sheppey, and of this about £10,000 will be devoted to sea defences round the town of Sheerness itself.
    Mr. PALING: Will the right hon. Gentleman make the same percentage offer to the Doncaster drainage scheme?

    FAR EAST (SITUATION).
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the Dominions have been consulted with regard to the situation in the Far East with a view to ascertaining what action can usefully be taken there to maintain peace and secure international rights under the Nine Power land other existing treaties, especially in view of the fact that the open-door policy in Manchukuo is now being violated in the spirit if not in the letter?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): I can assure the hon. Member that His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions are kept as fully informed as possible of important developments in the international situation in the Far East, as in other parts of the world. I

    1125
    must not, of course, be understood as accepting the suggestion in the latter part of the question.
    Mr. MANDER: In view of the great importance which some of the Dominions attach to this matter, will advantage be taken of the presence of their Ministers here this summer, for the Jubilee, to discuss the question with them.
    Mr. THOMAS: I can assure my hon. Friend that the Dominions who take a great interest in this question will not need to be reminded of their opportunity of discussing it.

    BRITISH ARMY (VISITS OF INSPECTION).
    Mr. WESTasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office the object of the visits of General Sir A. Montgomery-Massingberd, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, to Egypt, the Sudan and Palestine, and of Major-General S. W. Barron, Inspector of Fixed Forces, to Singapore, Hong Kong, Colombo and Aden?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Douglas Hacking): The object of the visits of the Chief of the Imperial General Staff to Egypt, the Sudan and Palestine is to inspect the training of the troops in the discharge of his ordinary duties. The visits of the Inspector of Fixed Defences to Singapore, Hong Kong, Colombo land Aden are similarly incidental to his normal duties of inspection.

  EDUCATION.

    SCHOOL-LEAVING AGE.
    Miss CAZALETasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education when the examination by the Board of Education and other Departments on the question of the school-leaving age will be completed?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Ramsbotham): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) on Monday last, to which I have nothing to add, except to assure my hon. Friend that both my Department and the Scottish Education Department are concerned to expedite this matter as far as is possible.
    Miss CAZALET: Does the hon. Gentleman think that the examination will be completed by Easter; and is the whole question of continued education up to 18 years also being examined, as well as the actual question of the school-leaving age?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: I can state no definite time, but all relevant factors will be taken into consideration.

    DURHAM UNIVERSITY (ROYAL COMMISSION'S REPORT).
    Miss WARDasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the report of the Royal Commission on the University of Durham will be available for Members of Parliament?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): The report will be available to Members this afternoon.
    Mr. STOREY: Can my right hon. Friend explain the circumstances in which the recommendations of this Royal Commission were disclosed to a North of England newspaper on Monday last?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: All that I know is that, while such reports are generally, as I understand, laid in dummy, this one was laid in the original, and had been available in the Library for several days before anything appeared in the newspapers.

    ANTHRAX (IMPORTED GOATS' HAIR).
    Mr. EADYasked the Home Secretary the number of cases of anthrax from infection of imported goats' hair for the years ended 1932, 1933, and 1934?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The following cases attributed to goat hair imported for the woollen trade have come to the notice of the Home Office—1932, four cases; 1933, three cases; 1934, four eases. I should add that in five of these cases other material was being handled, and one cannot say with certainty that the worker caught the infection from the goat hair, but the investigations indicated that this was most probably the case.
    Mr. EADY: Did the Home Secretary take the smallness of these numbers into consideration when altering the order relating to disinfection against anthrax?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Yes, Sir, it has been taken very carefully into consideration.

    LEAGUE OF NATIONS (PARAGUAY).
    Colonel BURTONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the withdrawal of Paraguay from the League of Nations; and what reason has been assigned for this action?
    Sir J. SIMON: The Paraguayan Government, notified the League on 24th February of their intention to withdraw. I have not yet seen the full text of the Paraguayan Government's telegram, but I understand that they have based their withdrawal on the claim that the question of responsibility for the Chaco dispute has not been investigated by the League as demanded by Paraguay.

    CHINA AND JAPAN.
    Mr. JOELasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the new agreement between China and Japan affects the economic or other interests of Great Britain; and whether it in any way modifies or reverses the conclusions of the Washington Conference?
    Sir J. SIMON: As my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal indicated in reply to a question put yesterday by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton East (Mr. Mander), His Majesty's Government have still no definite information as to the purport of the conversations in Nanking between representatives of the Chinese and Japanese Governments. So far as I am aware no general agreement between the two countries has been concluded.

    PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE.
    Mr. SUMMERSBYasked the Home Secretary what was the total number of people who did not exercise their vote at the last general election; and, approximately, what proportion of that number were aged or infirm people who by their inability to leave their homes were deprived of their vote?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I can only give my hon. Friend the difference between the number of votes polled in contested constituencies and the number of persons on
    1128
    the register in those constituencies. The figure is 5,473,633. My hon. Friend will realise that this figure does not accurately represent the number who abstained from voting though it is probably a sufficiently close approximation for any practical purposes. I have no material on which to provide the information asked for in the second part of the question.
    Mr. SUMMERSBY: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the proportion of people who are unable to vote because of physical unfitness is large enough for him to introduce legislation to enable them to vote without visiting the polling stations?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: All I can say is that the total electorate in constituencies in which there were contests at the last general election was 27,180,006 and the votes cast in those constituencies were 21,656,373. In those circumstances, I do not think it necessary to take action.
    Mr. WEST: Is it a fact that a very large proportion of infirm people at the last election voted national?
    Captain CUNNINGHAM-REID: Is it not a fact that in some of the more scattered country constituencies many of the voters are practically disfranchised on account of the fact that the polling booths are so far away?

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    REFERENCES TO UMPIRE.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Minister of Labour whether he will state the number of cases referred to the Umpire under the Unemployment Insurance Acts during 1934, the number still awaiting decision, and the number which have been awaiting a decision for more than a month?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. R. S. Hudson): The number of cases referred to the Umpire in 1934 was 14,257. The number of cases awaiting decision at 22nd February was 494 of which 50 were more than a month old.

    HOSIERY TRADE.
    Mr. CAPORNasked the Minister of Labour whether he can state the smallest number of persons registered for em

    1129
    ployment in the hosiery industry recorded as unemployed during any part of 1934, and the average monthly number so recorded during the said year?
    Mr. HUDSON: Among insured persons aged 16–64 in the hosiery industry classification in Great Britain the smallest number recorded as unemployed at any of the monthly dates during 1934 for which statistics are available, was 9,754, at 26th November. The average monthly number recorded as unemployed during that year was 12,755. In both cases substantially more than half the total were only temporarily stopped.
    Mr. CAPORNasked the Minister of Labour whether he can state the number of persons registered for employment in the hosiery trade at the beginning of 1935 or the nearest available date, and at the corresponding period for 1932?
    Mr. HUDSON: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to him on this subject on 20th February.
    Mr. LYONS: Am I right in saying that the number unemployed in the hosiery trade is greater than for some years past, and, in view of the apprehension which must be caused to the Minister of Labour, will he make some representations for the better protection of the home market?
    Mr. HUDSON: I would refer my hon. Friend to my previous answer.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Is it not true that the wise men of all nations realise that the only way to get the unemployed to work is the lowering of tariffs in all countries?

    COURTS OF REFEREES (ADVICE TO APPLICANTS).
    Mr. GARDNERasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the chairman of Stratford (West Ham) court of referees on 29th January last suggested to Richard Lancelot Lester, Case No. 2,516, an applicant for unemployment benefit, that in regard to his defective vision he could get suitable spectacles from a Woolworth's store for sixpence; and whether he will circulate chairmen of courts of referees that they should be careful not to give advice that may be misleading and dangerous, but to advise claimants in want requiring skilled help that they should apply for assistance to sources where their needs may be efficiently met
    Mr. HUDSON: I understand that the facts are as stated. The hon. Member's question will, I think, give sufficient publicity to the matter, and my right hon. Friend does not consider it necessary to circularise chairmen as a body.

    SCOTLAND (SUGAR-BEET FACTORY, CUPAR).
    Mr. HENDERSON STEWART (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he can make any statement regarding the sugar-beet factory at Cupar?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): My right hon. Friend is glad to be able to say that Lord Weir, the chairman of the Anglo-Scottish Beet-Sugar Corporation, has now consulted with the National Farmers' Union of Scotland and that the corporation have decided to operate the Cupar factory in the present year in order to maintain the present position in regard to sugar-beet growing in Scotland in the proposed further interim period. My right hon. Friend understands that the acreage offered will be that contracted for last year less a small percentage reduction resulting from the limitation of total beet acreage referred to in the recent Government announcement. He understands further that the contract price will be 36s. per ton free on rail being last year's fixed price less 1s.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the Lord President the business for Friday?
Mr. BALDWIN: Committee stage of the outstanding Supplementary Estimates—we shall begin with the Ministry of Labour Vote and consider the other Services not taken on Monday last—and the Army Supplementary Estimate. If there is time, other Orders will be taken, including the Post Office and Telegraph (Money) Bill, Committee stage, National Gallery (Overseas Loans) Bill, Second Reading, and the Report stage of outstanding Supplementary Estimates.
Mr. LANSBURY: The right hon. Gentleman appears to entertain very, optimistic hopes in that rather long list of business. I am not quite sure that he will be able to get it.
Mr. BALDWIN: We can always hope for the best.

AIR ESTIMATES, 1935.
Copy presented, of Memorandum by the Secretary of State for Air to accompany the Air Estimates, 1935 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
NAVY (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTI MATE, 1934).
Estimate presented, of the further Sum required to be voted for the Navy for the year ending 31st March, 1935 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
  Considered in Committee [FOURTH DAY—Progress 26 th, February].
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

  GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.

    CLAUSE 6.—(Accession, of Indian States.)
    Amendment proposed [26th February]: In page 3, line 19, to leave out "a declaration made, "and insert "an Instrument of Accession executed."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    3.48 p.m.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Sir Samuel Hoare): When the Committee adjourned last night I was on the point of answering certain questions that had been put to me in connection with the Amendment moved by the Solicitor-General. Let me, however, before I deal with the specific questions say once again that neither this Amendment nor the Amendments that the Solicitor-General described in this connection last night are hasty decisions intended to placate opposition in a moment of crisis. They are not the forerunners of others which will change the whole structure of the Bill. They have been put down on their merits and, equally on their merits no doubt, similar Amendments will be moved to later Clauses of the Bill. I make that statement at the opening of our proceedings to-day in order to remove any impression that may have been created in the mind of anyone by certain fantastic paragraphs in the public press this morning. When I read my newspapers this morning I rubbed my eyes and said to myself:
    "Do I sleep, do I dream, or is visions about."
    Taking two instances, I observe in one of the principal organs of the extreme right and in one of the principal organs of the extreme left, both of them singing in curious unison, that I had spent the night before last in a steepness night preparing a recantation of the federal scheme. I also observed in these journals that I spent a good deal of yesterday in two long-distance talks upon the telephone with the Maharaja of Patiala and that I
    1144
    invited the Indian Princes in this critical emergency to come over at once, and, at a moment's notice, discuss with me the whole basis of the Amendments that we are here considering this afternoon. Let me say to the Committee that there is not a vestige of truth in any of these fantastic rumours. So far as the telephone to India is concerned, I have only once used it and that was two years ago when I opened the service between Bombay and London. Since then I have felt it much better to let the Government of India and the Viceroy manage their own affairs without the constant intervention of the Secretary of State from the India Office in London. Least of all should I engage in these panicky conversations with one of the great Indian Princes presumably behind the back of the Viceroy, realising as I do, and as I hope every Member of this Committee equally does, that the Viceroy is the proper channel between the Crown and the Princes and that nothing would be more improper than for me to intervene in this matter.
    Fortunately, however, these things have been put in their proper perspective by a Reuter message from Bombay that was put into my hands as I came into the House this afternoon, and I will quote it now because it affects directly Clause 6 and the Amendments with which we are actually dealing. I will read the substance of it to the Committee:
    "The speeches of the Secretary of State and others in the House of Commons have been widely discussed and comment is that much has been made of a storm in a teacup. It is felt that the Secretary of State has taken the Princes' resolution in the spirit in which it was meant to be taken, and that the Princes' difficulties in connection with joining in the Federation will be capable of solution eventually by amendments and adjustments during the progress of the Committee stage of the Bill and later at the time of the actual accession, the Instruments of which will vary in the case of each individual State, and will be capable of modification to meet the requirements of particular States.
    One not uninfluential section,"—
    I will not disguise this fact from the Committee—
    "however, still believes that the differences are of a fundamental nature needing urgent attention and capable of being removed only by radical changes in the Bill as well as in the Instruments of Accession."
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Who is the authority for that communication?
    Sir S. HOARE: Reuter's agency.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Only a communication from a news agency.
    Sir S. HOARE: Yes, Sir, and if I had quoted a telegram from the Viceroy to myself my right hon. Friend would have been the first to say that that was biased information. That is why I think it is much better to quote an agency of the public Press upon the subject. Having said these few words of introduction to our discussion, let me proceed to the questions that were asked of me upon these Amendments last night, and let me begin by the series of questions put to me by my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). My right hon. Friend and I, I am afraid, often disagree in these discussions. Will he, however, let me say—and it is a very sincere observation—with what delight we all listened to his speech late in the evening yesterday. It could not have been a more delightful speech, full of wit and humour. Indeed, if I may say so, I—certainly I myself, and, I think, a great many other people in the House—infinitely preferred his manner in the evening to his melodramatic manner in the afternoon. Be that as it may, he painted in most vivid colours a picture of the kind of federation that he assumed that I was proposing to the Committee. In looking at these Amendments, he said to me, "Is this the kind of federation you are setting up I The Secretary of State will go round the Princes one by one, his pockets filled with the Princes' tributes, doling out a bit to one, doling out a bit to another, and saying to them one by one, Come into the Federation. As regards obligations, you can come in on a kind of limited liability basis. But come in and be one of the 52, and then I can set up this Federation.' "
    I am sorry to have to obliterate that very picturesque description, so picturesque that it would really be worthy of a cartoon by Low or Strube. In actual fact none of these things is going to happen. Certainly we are not going to have any Princes acceding to the Federation with this kind of limited liability system. Perhaps I cannot do better than read to the House the answer I gave upon this subject in my cross-examination in the Joint Select Committee to one of the 10,000 odd questions that I answered in that Committee. These are my words:
    "We contemplate that Items 1 to 45 "—
    1146
    those are the items that now appear in the Seventh Schedule and they are the items in the federal list—
    "of List 1 will be the normal field over which the States will surrender their powers."
    I pause at this point to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that Items 1 to 45 cover a very wide field of government.
    "The actual details of the treaties must be considered each on its own merits, always with this reservation in mind, that if a State attempts to make reservations that would make its entry of no value to the Federation or not of sufficient value to the Federation, then obviously we must have the power of refusing to accept an entry upon those terms…There will be variations, no doubt, as to the exact manner in which the States undertake these federal duties. There again it is a question to be considered when the Instruments of Accession are considered, and once again, if a State attempts to make terms which would make its entry of little or no value to the Federation, then there must be power of refusing the entry of that State…What we want, and what we shall do our utmost to obtain is a basic list of the important subjects with which the States who enter the Federation would as a whole conform''
    I finish the quotation, and I pass to the conclusion that I draw from it. First, the States will be invited to accept the first 45 items as federal subjects. They will, of course, be free to accept other subjects if they so wish. Secondly, there will, and must, be some variation from State to State, either in the number of subjects or in the qualifications which they attach to their acceptance—
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Within the 45?
    Sir S. HOARE: Within the 45—these variations arising from the different circumstances of the States and the different treaty rights which they may wish to preserve. It will, however—and this is the statement that I emphasise again—rest with the Crown to accept or reject proposals for accession, and the House—here, again, I emphasise this point—will be in due course in full possession of all the facts upon which acceptance or rejection has been based. In order to make it quite clear to hon. Members in this Committee that there is no intention whatever of accepting inadequate condition of accession, I give once again the undertaking to the Committee that the Instruments of Accession will be issued in the form of a White Paper before the

    1147
    House is asked to consider a Proclamation bringing in the Federation, and the House, before it pledges itself to Federation, will be in a position to judge whether the accessions have been really effective or not.
    Mr. ISAAC FOOT: Would the right hon. Gentleman remind the Committee that the answer to which he has referred to-day which was given before the Joint Select Committee, was immediately published not only in this country but in India., and was made in the presence of the representatives of the Princes themselves?
    Sir S. HOARE: Yes, I think that certainly was so. My hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong, but I think I am right in saying that there has never been any difference of opinion on this point at all. The facts, however, which the Committee should keep in mind, if they have any suspicion left in their mind lest these accessions should be inadequate, is that they will see all these Instruments of Accession before the Proclamation is issued, and if then they think these instruments inadequate, they need not pass the Resolution necessary to bring in Federation.
    I pass to the second of my right hon. Friend's questions. It really arises from the answer I have just given, namely, Will the Princes come in upon differing terms? If one Prince, for instance, has made a limited accession, has he only a limited position in the Federation My answer to my right hon. Friend is, that once an accession has been accepted, all the Princes then will be on the same footing. The safeguard is in the acceptance of the accession. When once the accession is accepted, there will be no difference between one Prince and another.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: And everyone has to agree to the first 45 items, subject to certain minor modifications in respect of the circumstances of the particular State? Is that so?
    Sir S. HOARE: I would not go so far as to be rigid on a point like that, but the general intention is that 1 to 45 will be the subjects over which the Federation will operate. In as big an area as India, there are bound to be partial variations. The general intention is that
    1148
    1 to 45 should be the normal field of entry.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Substantially they will all have to subscribe to that?
    Sir S. HOARE: I will put it rather in the form in which I have put it that it is the normal field of entry, and exceptions from that field would have to be justified. We should hope that they would be a very limited number.
    Let me pass from this question to one or two others that were asked me. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) asked me a question of the same kind, namely, would a State be able to accede in respect of 10 subjects? My answer to him would be that I do not think that we could possibly regard an accession of that kind as an effective accession. I cannot imagine that to pick out two or three items could possibly be regarded as effective accession.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Outside the 45 more or less obligatory?
    Sir S. HOARE: No, the answer would be much more definite. Then the hon. Member for Caerphilly asked me a question about the intervention of the Federal Centre.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: The right hon. Gentleman has spoken so far of the Federation. What has he to say in relation to the concurrent list? Do the same remarks apply?
    Sir S. HOARE: My remarks apply only to the Federation. I think we ought to deal with the concurrent list when we come to the Amendments on the subject; but the whole basis of our discussion has been on the basis of federation. The concurrent list raises a number of other issues. The hon. Member asked me another question. I think his case was this. Suppose a State, having acceded to the Federation, and having accepted a particular federal subject, is allowed, for special reasons, to administer that subject itself, what power is given to the Federation if that federal subject is not being effectively administered? The answer is two-fold. First of all, the Federal Executive and the Federal Legislature would have the right, and indeed the duty, to follow very closely what is happening with that service. Suppose it appeared that the service was not being

    1149
    effectively administered and intervention was then necessary. The intervention would come from the Governor-General for this reason. The Joint Select Committee came to the view, not only in this case, but in cases also affecting the Federal Government and the Provinces where intervention was necessary, that intervention had better Dome from the Governor-General, although acting, of course, in the closest contact with the Federal Government, rather than from the Federal Government itself.
    The hon. Member will see the kind of difficulty we wish to avoid. We wish to avoid the difficulty of the Governor-General on the advice of his Federal Ministers instructing a Provincial Governor or the Sovereign of a State to take action against his own ministers. We thought that that kind of situation would be objectionable from various points of view. That being so, intervention of that kind had better not come from the Governor-General on the advice of his Federal Ministers. But that does not mean that the Governor-General would not be in the closest possible touch with his Federal Ministers and that the Federal Ministers would not be closely following the matter.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: Suppose in State A or State B there is a suspicion of inefficient administration. Would it be possible in the Central Legislature for a discussion to arise concerning that lack of efficient administration?
    Sir S. HOARE: I feel sure that the Federal Legislature would be able to discuss matters in connection with any service that the Princes had accepted as a federal service. Quite obviously the Federal Legislature in a matter of that kind would have the duty to discuss it.
    Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: Surely it would be rather similar to the case where this House, for instance, has put the administration in the hands of the Tariff Commission or similar body which is outside the control of this House, and for which no Minister is responsible? Therefore, you cannot raise the question of its administration, because the House has put it outside its control. Would not a similar principle apply as regards the Federal Legislature? There being no responsible Minister for the service in State A, it would not be competent for
    1150
    the House to discuss the administration. If they did so, they would be discussing the discretion of the Governor-General.
    Sir S. HOARE: No, Sir, the analogy is not exact between a' board such as the hon. Member has mentioned and the position of a State administering services of this kind. There would be an immense responsibility. Let me put it in the form of a concrete case which will make it simpler to the Committee. Take the case of railways. It is quite conceivable that in one or two of the great States it might be advantageous and convenient that railways, while remaining a federal subject, should be administered by this or that particular State in the State. None the less, the Minister of Communications in the Federal Government would be equally responsible for federal railways as a federal subject. I think I am right.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: In Clause 124 this question is made in the Instrument of Accession a reservation, and, therefore, it is never submitted to the Federation. The words are:
    "Notwithstanding anything in this Act, agreements may, and, if provision has been made in that behalf by the Instrument of Accession of the State, shall, be made between the Governor-General and the Ruler of a Federated State for entrusting to the Ruler or to his officers functions in relation to the administration in his State of any law of the Federal Legislature which applies therein."
    That would be a reservation in the Instrument of Accession and, therefore, the administration being reserved to the ruler, would never come within the Federation at all.
    Sir S. HOARE: I will look further into the point, but I think the case is as I have stated, and later, or in some future debate, we can deal with it at greater length. The main point certainly is as I have stated, namely, that if the Federal Government were not satisfied with the adequacy of administration of this kind, then the Governor-General under the Clause would have the power of intervention, and that intervention would be made probably in full contact and full agreement with the Federal Government.
    There was a question asked me by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman), who spoke the other day with great regret of the

    1151
    way I had lapsed since years ago I attended his lectures in Oxford. Perhaps, as an excuse, may I say this? Although I believe he has written one of the best text books of every conceivable period, not alone of English but of world history, I think he has omitted any chapter about India—at any rate, about the Indian Princes. Perhaps that accounts for the gaps in my knowledge to which he drew attention the other evening. Be that as it may, my hon. Friend asked me this question: Can a Ruler accede while he is compulsorily residing outside his State and not exercising his powers in the State or while he is a minor? The answer to both questions is, "No." Sub-section (3) provides for a State which has validly acceded to the Federation remaining in the Federation despite the death of its Ruler and the accession of a minor, subject to a Regency. Actual accession can only be effected by a ruler himself exercising the powers of a ruler in his State.
    A question was asked me by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland), namely: Do the limitations and conditions that may be asked for apply only to the subjects in List No. 1 or also to the subjects in List No. 3, the concurrent list? The answer is that if, which is not very likely but is possible under the Clause, any ruler of a State accepted as federal in his State a subject included in the concurrent list he could apply conditions in regard to his acceptance of that subject in the same way as he can apply conditions to his acceptance of any subject in List No. 1. I have omitted to deal with a second question put to me by the hon. Member for Caerphilly. It is a rather complicated one, but so far as I understood it it was this: Does the provision in Sub-section (2) of Clause 6 for supplementary declarations mean that a ruler having once declared his acceptance of such and such federal subjects, subject to such and such qualifications, can by a subsequent instrument withdraw his acceptance of any federal subject or add fresh qualifications or limitations to it? The answer is, "No." The intention of Sub-section (2) is to enable a ruler who has accepted, say, 40 subjects, as federal to signify his acceptance of further subjects or, alternatively, having accepted a particular item, sub
    1152
    ject to qualifications, to restrict those qualifications. I think I have dealt with all the questions that were asked me last night, and I hope that I have given not unsatisfactory answers.
    4.18 p.m.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I wish to thank the Secretary of State for the illumination which he has thrown upon a complicated aspect of the Bill and on his Amendments. I couched my remarks in an interrogatory form. I was not drawing a picture, but I was asking a certain number of questions in order to obtain reassurance that the picture when drawn by the Secretary of State would be free from some of the blemishes which might appear in some versions. I think the Secretary of State has made it very plain that the accession of the Princes must be great and substantial accessions. If they come in they are to come in for substantially the whole body of the subjects up to 45. There is no question of their being allowed only to take up two or three, or half-a-dozen, or fifteen. They must come in substantially for the whole of these 45 important elements in the Federal Constitution. That, I think, is very satisfactory. I agree that in a sub-Continent as vast as India certain differences here and there might allow of some mitigation in respect of a particular State, but I gather that that is only to be for a very small proportion of the 45 subjects and is not likely to occur except in a few of the States. That being so, I think that undoubtedly the core of the Federation will be sustained by the Princes who subscribe to this particular list.
    I gather that it is optional in regard to the other list to come in with or without reservation. It appears to me, if I understand rightly, that in regard to the first list of 45 subjects—I notice that it stops short of State lotteries, in which my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) is interested—some of the services may be handed back, as it were, to the Princes for administration in their own territories, instead of being administered by the Federal Government, if that is found to be satisfactory. That is so, is it not?
    Sir S. HOARE: Yes.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: But, of course, the discussion of the affairs of those States in the Federal Legislature will range

    1153
    equally over any branches that have been reassigned to the States and to those which are being administered by the Federal Legislature and which the Princes have surrendered to the Federal Legislature. That is very important, and I am very glad that we are going to see exactly what the consequences of the situation will be. There will be this enormous block of subjects, 45 subjects, which touch the States at so many points, and the whole of them can be made the subject of debate at any time in the Federal Assembly. That is certainly right, because obviously if the services have been surrendered they are amenable to discussion, and if once surrendered and then handed back a fortiori the supervision must be maintained. The internal affairs of the States which join the Federation will be continually open to debate and discussion in the Federal Assembly. That is most important to establish, and I am very glad that the Secretary of State did not find himself in agreement with the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) who seemed to think that it would be, as it were, outside the purview of the scope of the Federal Legislature to discuss and to have debates on the internal affairs of the different States. It now appears that they will be brought fully and fairly on to the floor of the Federal Assembly. Having regard to the fact that the list is a substantial list and that those States that accede to the Federation will be subject to having the whole of these matters constantly discussed in the Assembly it seems to me that no one can deny the reality and the gravity of the act which each one of the Princes will take when he subscribes irrevocably to the Instrument of Accession.
    4.25 p.m.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I should like to associate myself and my hon. Friends on these benches with the appreciation expressed by the right hon. Gentleman for Epping (Mr. Churchill) with regard to the lucid explanation given by the Secretary of State and the great care he has taken in his replies to the questions addressed to him. I do not pretend on behalf of my hon. Friends to say that we are entirely reassured, though I confess that what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon does go some way towards removing any little
    1154
    misapprehension that we entertain. We must, however, take steps at the appropriate time to express our disapproval of the methods of accession as indicated by the Bill. In order not to consume time unnecessarily may I say that we shall not divide the Committee on this particular Amendment, but later on we shall avail ourselves of the opportunity of dividing the Committee on an Amendment which will be found on page 414 of the Order Paper. I hope the Committee will under: stand clearly that by allowing this part of the Bill to pass unchallenged we do not indicate our assent to what is done in the Clause.
    4.27 p.m.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: I am not clear with regard to the list. The list in the Bill is one of 56 items. We are now told that the Princes will only have to signify substantial agreement in regard to the first 45. What is the position with regard to items 46 to 56? Those items contain provision as to State lotteries, taxes on income other than income from agricultural land, taxes on the capital of individuals and companies—all very important matters—the rates of stamp duty in regard to bills of exchange, etc., terminal taxes on goods or passengers carried by railway, water or air, and other subjects. These are all matters of very vital importance. I am not clear why the list has been divided after item 45 and why the items from 46 to 56, which are most important items, should be put in another category. I should be much obliged if the Secretary of State would make it clear why these apparently non-necessary items are to be dealt with in this way.
    4.28 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: The division between items 45 and 46 is the division between subjects that the States have, generally speaking, accepted as federal subjects; subjects which pre-eminently concern British India rather than the States. When we come to a discussion of these items in the list, I shall be able to justify what I have just said, and I can tell my hon. Friend that those later subjects are British India subjects rather than State subjects.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am very anxious not to curtail the explanations that may be necessary, but hon. and right hon. Members must remember that we must

    1155
    not discuss the list except so far as may be necessary to understand this Amendment.
    4.29 p.m.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: If we pass this now, are we committed to considering nothing further than the first 45 subjects?
    Sir S. HOARE: No.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: When we come later to the Schedule shall we be told then that owing to what we do now in this Clause we have stopped ourselves from going any further?
    Sir S. HOARE: No.
    4.30 p.m.
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: There is one question I should like to put to the Secretary of State. The Governor-General has to say if he thinks a particular subject which is being administered by the Princes is not being administered in the right way. When he does that I want to know what is the procedure to get the subject properly administered.
    Sir S. HOARE: Here again I must not anticipate the Clause which deals with this matter, but in a single sentence let me say that he would give instructions to the ruler of the State to put the affair right.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: There is one point in connection with the list of 45 subjects which I should like to mention. In Part II of the concurrent list there are many matters of great interest to British India which many people feel should be federal rather than provincial. There are, for instance, the factory laws—
    The CHAIRMAN: That is clearly outside the scope of the Amendment.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: With a view to utilising as much time as possible, may I say that we propose to fall in with the views expressed by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) and take a Division on one particular Amendment?
    Amendment agreed to.
    4.32 p.m.
    Brigadier - General Sir HENRY CROFT: I beg to move, in page 3, line 20, at the end, to insert:
    1156
    "(a) declares his willingness that as and from the date of the Proclamation establishing the Federation he and his subjects should become subjects of His Majesty."
    The CHAIRMAN: I do not propose to select the next Amendment on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Islington (Mr. Donner) and the Noble Lord the Member for Perth (Lord Scone), to leave out the words "and to his subjects," because I think the point can, if necessary, be sufficiently raised on the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). If hon. Members, however, think it necessary to ask for a decision on the next Amendment I shall be prepared to call it for the purpose of taking a decision, on the understanding that it is not then further discussed.
    Sir H. CROFT: The Amendment which I propose has been tabled more with the object of trying to elucidate a little information from the Secretary of State and in the hone that hon. Members will appreciate the full reactions of the federal scheme we are setting up. The more one examines it the more one finds what great difficulties there are confronting it. Under the Bill it is proposed to federate the Provinces, the natives of which are subjects of His Majesty the King, with the States, the natives of which are not British subjects. Consequently, we have to consider a state of affairs which probably has never existed in any similar attempt to federate in the world. We have to consider how long such a state of affairs can exist, and whether the point has been raised by the Secretary of State with the Princes as to how long such an extraordinary situation is likely to continue. Later, when we consider the Clauses of the Bill relating to federal law and the courts, it will be proved that the anomalies and difficulties arising from this state of affairs are far more apparent. I have been trying to find a precedent for this proposal. In this country our Sovereign was once the Sovereign of Hanover as well, and every one will admit that it would have been extremely difficult to have had Bavarians as members of Parliament working under a federation which was supposed to continue for all time. There is another difficult point in relation to the oath

    1157
    which has to be taken. A legislator from a native State in taking the oath says:
    "saving the faith and allegiance which I owe to—"
    It may be to the Gaekwar of Baroda or the Maharaja of Kashmir—
    "saving the faith and the allegiance which I owe to—I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty the King, Emperor of India."
    There may be some conflict in the future between a native ruler and the King Emperor. What is this wretched man going to do? He will be torn between two loyalties, but will probably edge towards his local ruler, who has his eye upon him, rather than to the distant King Emperor. I think we shall find extraordinary difficulties arising in connection with this matter. We do not wish to divide the Committee to-day unless the Secretary of State has had an indication from the Princes that they would like to accept the Amendment. I do not know whether this point has ever been raised with them. In any case, the Princes have had little time to consider the suggestion, and we do wish to force the proposal unless the Secretary of State can give us some information. I should like to know whether the consequence of this mixing up of different nationals and subjects has been considered and, if so, whether the Secretary of! State can tell us for how long he contemplates it will be possible for such a state of affairs to continue?
    Sir EDWARD GRIGG: It is always rash to assert, as the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) has asserted, that there is no precedent in the British Empire. There is a precedent for this anomaly. In the Protectorate which is part of the colony of Kenya the subjects on the coast are not the subjects of His Majesty the King but of the Sultan of Zanzibar. In spite of that, Arab members who are subjects of the Sultan of Zanzibar have sat in the Legislature of Kenya and taken the Oath of allegiance to His Majesty the King. That is an exact precedent for which the hon. and gallant Member asks.
    4.39 p.m.
    Mr. DONNER: Owing to the rustling of paper I found it difficult to hear your Ruling, Sir Dennis. I am therefore a little uncertain as to the effect of the
    1158
    Ruling you were good enough to give, but, as I understand it, I can discuss on this Amendment the Amendment which stands in my name to take out the words "and to his subjects."
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member will perhaps put his point, and, if I find that it goes too far, I will stop him.
    Mr. DONNER: I desire to appeal to the Government to reconsider the wording of this particular Sub-section. The words, "and to his subjects," would at first glance appear to be quite innocent, but on a further and closer examination it is clear that some differentiation of treatment is indicated as between a ruler and his subjects. I do not go so far as to say that the present wording carries an unforeseen implication, but as the Bill stands it would almost appear as if a ruler is under some kind of obligation to consult his subjects. At any rate these words open up the whole question of the relationship of a ruler to his subjects, and from that point of view I ask the Government to reconsider the wording of the Sub-section. If a Prince desires to accede to federation both the State and his subjects, according to the present wording of the Bill, will have to accede. The word "State" alone does not include subjects. If that were the case then the words "and his subjects" would not be included in the Bill. Therefore, it would seem that the subjects of an Indian State become by the wording of the Bill amenable to the decisions of the Federal Legislature. I hope the Government will not brush this aside as a fanciful idea on the part of a private Member, because I have taken the trouble to obtain legal opinion on the subject and the advice I have had is that under the Bill as it stands counsel are of opinion that the subjects of an Indian State are amenable to the decisions of the Federal Legislature.
    May I remind the Committee that the position of the Princes, as we understood it, was that they were unwilling to allow federal laws to apply in any State except at their own discretion and even then with their own machinery. I cannot believe that it is the intention of the Government that the Federal Legislature should intervene between a ruler and his subjects. If that were the intention, there would be same machinery for it in

    1159
    the Bill, but I can find no such machinery or proviso in regard to federal agents, and therefore I feel that this is not the intention of the Government. At the same time, that is in my view definitely the effect of the Bill as it stands, and that is why I am asking the Government to reconsider the wording of the subsection. I should like to ask whether the new position has been made plain to the Princes, whether they are aware of the fact that the Central Legislature at Delhi can now come between them and their subjects? The position of the Princes is very different from that which we have hitherto understood, and very different from the position of the Princes under the majority report.
    Here then is an entirely new departure which allows the Federal Legislature to intervene between a ruler and his subjects. It might be very awkward if a Hindu majority in the Federal Legislature were to interfere with the subjects of a ruler of an Indian State. How much that would be resented and how much friction it would cause is not difficult to imagine, but surely that resentment would be doubled and that friction trebled if the ruler happened to be a Mohammedan and his subjects, as is so often the case, happened to be Hindus. I can imagine no situation which would be more deeply resented by a Mohammedan Prince than that a Hindu majority on the Federal Legislature should interfere with the Hindu subjects in his State, and intervene between him and his own subjects. Having drawn the attention of the Government to this anomaly, I hope they will favourably reconsider the wording of the Clause. It is not, as I have said, a fanciful idea on the part of a private Member, as I have consulted legal opinion on the matter.
    4.45 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Donald Somervell): I should like to express my appreciation of the way in which the hon. and gallant Member has raised the question of the nationality of the subjects of the States. It is quite clear that no ruler will accept this Amendment. We can say that quite definitely. Indeed it would cut across the whole principle of the Federation, which is that the ruler shall remain ruler of his State and his subjects shall therefore remain
    1160
    his subjects, the ruler undertaking to see that the provisions of the Act are enforced in his State. That is clearly the idea and basis of the whole federal proposal. Whether it is good or bad we will not debate now. The hon. and gallant Member will see that the idea of all the inhabitants of the States becoming British subjects, and, I assume, therefore ceasing to be the subjects of their ruler, is wholly against the basis on which we are proceeding.
    On the other hand, of course, the question of nationality perhaps most frequently arises when someone wants to go abroad and to have a passport, or has the misfortune to be the subject-matter of an incident in a foreign country in which he desires the protection of the Government of his own country. Of course, as the Crown controls the foreign relations of the States the Crown performs these services for the subjects of the States, that is to say, they get passports from the Crown, and if there were any case in which communications were necessary with a foreign Government in regard to something that had happened or had been done by a subject of the State, that correspondence would take place between the foreign Government and the, Government of India, or, if necessary, His Majesty's Government here. They are known as British protected persons for that purpose when they are outside their own territory. Therefore, that side of the matter is already provided for.
    Reference was made to the fact that there was no position exactly like this in the rest of the world, and I fully accept that statement. There is nothing in the rest of the world exactly like the present position with regard to the Indian States. We have to examine the proposals to see that they will work, but not in this matter to be guided by the fact that there is no exact parallel to be found elsewhere. My hon. and gallant Friend suggested that there might be a conflict of allegiance, but I do not see why one should anticipate any conflict of that kind under the new Constitution any more than under the present one. If one sat down and tried to imagine anomalies and difficulties there are plenty that one could imagine with the position as it is now. My hon. and gallant Friend asked a specific question, whether the consequences had been con-

    1161
    sidered, and the answer is yes. He also asked how long do we anticipate that the position of these people remaining subjects of their rulers would last. I do not think he would expect me to make a prophecy, but I can give him a fair answer. It will last as long as the Federation, on the broad present principle, remains in existence. The broad present principle is that there shall be a federation with the States, in which the rulers of the States shall be the rulers.
    The hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Donner) raised a different point. Let me say with as much emphasis as I can command that there is no new position and no anomaly. He referred to the words in Sub-section 1 (b) "may make laws for his State and his subjects." It must be obvious to everyone that you do not make laws for a mere piece of territory. The bulk of laws applying to agriculture and land have a special relation to the soil, but I think it will be very difficult to find a law which does not apply to persons. It is quite obvious that the State, by joining the Federation and agreeing that it shall make laws as to certain subjects, is to make laws for the State and the people in it. Of course, my hon. Friend realises that under Sub-section 1 (c) the ruler assumes the obligation of ensuring that due effect is given to the provisions of the Act within his State.
    Mr. DONNER: If there is any clash of legal opinion, would it not be as well to clarify the situation?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: So far as I can see it is already perfectly clear and there really never has been any doubt about it. If there is any doubt about it in anyone's mind, and he will bring it to the notice of the Secretary of State, I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will further consider the matter. For the reasons that I have stated the Government cannot accept the Amendment, and I hope that my answers to the questions have assured my hon. and gallant Friend that it is not necessary to press it.
    Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSON: If by any chance the subject of one State got into trouble and committed some crime in another State, would the States be able to appeal to the Federal Government to adjust the difference?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I think that would be a matter which would be dealt with through the Viceroy. Presumably the State in which the incident had occurred would communicate with the Viceroy and it would be dealt with normally under the paramountcy powers.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Are such Princes as have agreed to the Federal proposal in agreement that the Federal Legislature should make laws with regard to their States, and are they prepared to ensure that effect shall be given to those laws?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: That surely is the whole point of acceding to the Federation. By acceding to the Federation the State is saying, "We agree that the Federal Legislature shall make laws which shall run and be applicable in our States with the subjects of our States." The actual business of enforcing the law within the State will be the business of the ruler.
    Sir H. CROFT: In reply to the learned Solicitor-General, I would say that I do not wish to anticipate conflict, but we are legislating for a long time, and perhaps for all time, and we have to look a long way ahead. Suppose that such a conflict arose it is possible that the State would feel that it could secede. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    4.48 p.m.
    Major MILNER: I beg to move, in page 3, line 33, after "subjects." to insert:
    "(being matters which in the opinion of His Majesty are sufficient in number to enable the State to become an effective constituent part of the Federation)."
    The object of the Amendment is perfectly clear. It is to ensure that when rulers accede they accede in respect of matters of sufficient number and importance to enable a State to become an effective, constituent part of the Federation. Obviously it is essential that if a State does accede it should accede in sufficient matters and in matters of sufficient importance to enable it to operate effectively as part of the Federation. I understand the Secretary of State has made a suggestion that the first 45 subjects in the federal list would be considered by His Majesty's Government as

    1163
    sufficient in number and importance to justify acceptance of an Instrument of Accession including those subjects. We feel that we are entitled to ask that there should be something in the Bill with regard to that matter, and the purpose of the Amendment is to obtain some guarantee that rulers shall be required to accede in a minimum number of subjects. The first 45 subjects mentioned by the right lion. Gentleman are not necessarily the most important. I imagine that the subjects which one would require the rulers to accede to are matters which may be considered of common concern to the whole country on the one hand, and on the other hand matters with respect to which complete uniformity is required.
    Those criteria apply equally to many subjects other than those included in the first 45. It is a rather curious thing that the first 45 subjects are mostly subjects in respect to which expenditure will be required, but the remaining subjects included in List I refer to matters of taxation. One would have thought that it would have been desirable to have insisted that rulers acceded in respect of matters of taxation. Obviously if some provision is not made in the Bill with regard to the matter, rulers who accede, those whose accession is accepted and who send their nominees to the Federal Legislature, would have power to legislate in regard to those subjects in British India, and the Legislature would not have power to legislate in the rulers' States in regard to subjects not included in the Instrument of Accession. Therefore, it would in one sense be power without responsibility.
    5.0 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I hope that when I have given a short explanation the hon. and gallant Member will see that his Amendment is unnecessary. The check is that which I have just described, namely, that the Instruments of Accession will be in the possession of Parliament and Parliament will have to satisfy itself that the Instruments of Accession are effective. The actual words of the hon. and gallant Member's proposals would really add nothing to that check. Indeed they would, so far as Parliament is concerned, rather complicate the position. The Amendment would leave the decision in the hands of
    1164
    the Executive. I was very careful to say in my earlier speech that the check would be a Parliamentary check. I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that there is no intention of attempting to bring about a federation which is not effective; and the check is two-fold, first the publication of the Instruments of Accession, and secondly a Parliamentary resolution. That being so, I hope he will not press the Amendment.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: Will Parliament have the power to amend the Instruments of Accession or will it be a case of either passing them or rejecting them?
    Sir S. HOARE: I do not think that that subject arises upon this Amendment but let me say in a sentence that Parliament certainly would have no power to amend them.
    5.2 p.m.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I think that the criticism which the right hon. Gentleman has offered of the terms of our Amendment is, in some measure, justified. I think it is arguable that the Amendment would leave the matter entirely in the hands of the Executive, without any reference to Parliament. I gather that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to allow us to have a discussion in due course on the terms of the Instruments of Accession. We were anxious to have something specific embodied in the Bill to indicate the intention of the Government but, having had the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman, and reserving to ourselves freedom to discuss the matter fully later on, I do not think that my hon. and gallant Friend need press this Amendment at this stage.
    Major MILNER: I had not the advantage of hearing the first portion of the right hon. Gentleman's earlier speech—and I apologise for my absence—but am I to understand that there will be provision in the Bill with regard to these matters being submitted to Parliament?
    Sir S. HOARE: Yes, Sir. There will be provision in the Bill for a Resolution from Parliament before the Federation is brought into being. Precedent to that the Instruments of Accession will have been executed, and the Instruments will be laid as a Parliamentary paper.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: In page 3, line 33, leave out from "subjects" to "and," in line 36.—[Sir S. Hoare.]
    5.4 p.m.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: I beg to move, in page 3, line 36, after "subject," to insert:
    "(c) declares that he accepts as matters with respect to which the Federal Legislature may make laws for his State and his subjects the matters numbered twenty-six, twenty-seven, and twenty-eight in the Concurrent Legislative List, namely:—

    (i) Factories; regulation of the working of mines, but not including mineral development;

    (ii) Welfare of labour; provident funds, employers' liability, and workmen's compensation;

    (iii) Trade unions; industrial and labour disputes."

    We regard this Amendment as of considerable importance because it is the first Amendment which has been moved on this Bill dealing with the economic conditions of the working classes of the Indian States. In fact there is little in this Bill affecting the working classes of India in their capacity as men and women working to earn their livelihood. I think it is a legitimate complaint that a Bill of over 450 Clauses running to 324 pages should deal with all manner of subjects and people, with Princes, Governors and officers and should safeguard the interests of practically everybody in India, except those who earn their livelihood in various occupations and employments. We intend by this Amendment to bring before the Committee the plight of the millions of people ruled by the Princes who will accede to the Federation. Clause 6 lays down the conditions under which States can accede to the Federation. I need hardly remind the Committee, however, that it will not be the people of those States who will accede. The accession will be by the Princes. Whether the people of the States want the accession or not does not matter. According to Clause 6 the ruler of the State must declare on accession that he accepts this Act as applicable to his State, and assumes the obligation of ensuring that due effect will be given to the Act within his State when the accession is implemented.
    Let me come to the difference as we see it between the States and the Provinces. There is one thing to be said in favour of British rule in India. We have been able to gather a great deal of information as to the conditions of employment within British India, but,
    1166
    as far as the States are concerned, I have never yet seen anything in print anywhere on that subject. I have searched for information as to the conditions of employment within the States ruled by the Princes but without success. Delegations have gone to British India on behalf of the Trade Union Congress. Individuals interested in the social welfare of the people have gone from this country, and have studied on the spot the conditions under which people are employed in British India. I have gone through volumes in the library of the House of Commons dealing with India but I have yet to learn of any information being available as to the conditions of the 80,000,000 who live under and are controlled by the Princes in the States.
    Mr. RAIKES: Hear, hear.
    Mr. DAVIES: I suppose the hon. Gentleman does not want any information of that kind.
    Mr. RAIKES: Yes, I am supporting the hon. Member.
    Mr. DAVIES: We get a great deal of support sometimes, in speeches, but on issues of this kind the support is seldom carried into the Division Lobby. We shall be able to test the extent of the hon. Member's support in a few minutes. We shall see whether he and his friends agree with our proposal or not. Let me return to the purport of our Amendment. In connection with this subject of accession there are to be three lists of subjects—the Federal list, the Provincial list, and the Concurrent list. We desire by this Amendment that all legislation that is passed by the Federal Legislature dealing with conditions of employment shall apply equally to British India and to the States. We think that a very reasonable proposition.
    Let us see what are the laws which we would like to see applied to the States, and which might become applicable to the Provinces. We say that they should include laws in relation to factories; the regulation of the working of mines but not including mineral development; the welfare of labour; provident funds; employers' liability and workmen's compensation and also trade union legislation and laws relating to industrial and labour disputes. We, conceive that the

    1167
    Princes will be represented in the Federal Legislature. They will be entitled apparently to speak and vote on laws dealing with labour conditions in the Provinces, but when those laws have been passed by the Federal Parliament they will not, according to the present provisions in the Bill, necessarily be applicable to the States at all. We consider that arrangement to be grossly unfair. It is as if the Scottish and Welsh Members in this House of Commons could speak and vote on industrial legislation which would be applicable to England alone. Of course the House of Commons would not admit of anything of the kind. The laws passed here on which Scottish and Welsh Members speak and vote are, generally speaking, applicable to the three countries alike. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I say, generally speaking, and if a Member for a Scottish constituency speaks in the House of Commons on a Bill which does not, apply to his own country, he has more loquacity than he ought to have.
    Lord EUSTACE PERCY: Would the hon. Gentleman propose to prevent Scottish Members speaking on English measures?
    Mr. DAVIES: We generally allow the Scottish people to do what they like especially in taking our money from us. To return to the subject of the Amendment, however, it may be true that there is little industrial development in some of the States. I do not know—and I would like to get information as to whether there are factories or workshops or coal mines in some States at all. If there are any industries in those States, then we say that it is unfair to British India that conditions of employment should prevail in those States lower than the conditions applying in the same occupations in British India. It may be true that conditions are better in some States than in British India as regards the same classes of work. It may also be true that the reverse is the case. But when we are seeking to establish a united India and bring the Provinces and the States into one great Federation, then all the laws passed by the Federal Legislature on these matters affecting the work-people should be universally applied.
    1168
    Let me give an illustration. Unless I am mistaken the Hours Convention passed by the International Labour Organisation which was intended to establish a 48-hour working week, so far as British India is concerned, is a 60-hour week convention, and not a 48-hour week convention. Even at that, the 60-hour week only applies to British India and not to the States. There is unfairness in that situation. We want to ensure that conventions covering labour industrial problems shall apply equally throughout the whole of India. The point has been raised already as to the possibility of conflict of trading interests between one State and another, and between the Provinces and the States. We have been told that India is not an ordinary country, but a great continent as big as Europe. There are so many nationalities, languages, and religions that when we are dealing with India we are practically dealing with a country as big and as complicated as the Continent of Europe.
    I would wish, therefore, that this new Constitution in India should not develop into another Europe. The complaint that we make in this country, legitimately or otherwise, is that the conditions of employment in the textile factories of Belgium, France, Italy and Germany are so very bad that the goods manufactured by trade union labour in this country are not having fair play in the markets of the world. That is a very important complaint, especially as between Japan and ourselves. It seems to me, therefore, that we should take great care that in establishing this new Constitution in India we do not allow a position to arise where the conditions of employment under the Princes shall be so much lower than they are in British India that you will see tariff walls going up between one State and another in India and probably between British India and the States as well. That is an argument that ought to appeal to the Government.
    The Parliamentary Secretary last night said the new Constitution about to be set up would provide facilities for social reform in India. Indeed, that is not true of the States, because the subjects in the concurrent list that we want to include are nearly all capable of being regarded as social reform. The Princes can contract out from all these proposals we want to include in the list. Let me see

    1169
    what are the subjects that ought to be dealt with by the Federal Legislature, affecting not only the workers of British India, but the workers employed in the States as well. They may want trade boards in India. They will certainly want the abolition of fines in textile factories; they may want the abolition of the half-time system there and probably a minimum rate of wages for agricultural workers also.
    I doubt very much whether the Indians employed on the tea plantations in that great country will be one jot better off by the passing of this Measure, because it is little use granting political emancipation and still keeping your working classes in economic bondage. The working classes of India are being kept in economic bondage, by British and Indian capitalists alike. In these States I suppose there will be foundries, docks, oil refineries, tea plantations and coal mining, and we are anxious that the Princes shall not contract out of any labour legislation that might be carried by the Federal Legislature in respect of conditions in those undertakings. There will be farm workers, I suppose, in large majorities in the States of Mysore and Kashmir, and unless something of the kind I am now proposing is inserted in this Clause, the millions of people who are employed for wages on the land in these States will be entirely oblivious of the passing of this Measure.
    As a Labour party, we deem it our duty to do something to give them a higher standard of life. We may satisfy the Princes, we can placate ardent Indian nationalists, we can probably meet the claims of British Indians, we can safeguard the Governors, we can extend the franchise, we can give votes to women in India and we can construct new bridges and railways, but unless the Bill does something to raise the labour conditions of the working classes of the Provinces and the States all our work will be of no avail.
    5.21 p.m.
    The CHAIRMAN: May I put it to the Committee that, with the agreement of the Opposition and, I hope, of the Committee generally it is understood that the next Amendment on the Paper—in page 3, line 36, after "subject," to insert:
    "(c) declares that he accepts as matters with respect to which the Federal Legislature may make laws for his State and his
    1170
    subjects any conventions or agreements made under the auspices of the International Labour Office of the League of Nations which the Federal Executive may ratify or to which it may become party."
    —will be called for the purpose of being put to the Committee and, if necessary, divided upon without any further discussion, the discussion of the Amendment now before the Committee covering the next Amendment also.
    5.22 p.m.
    Mr. BANFIELD: I think possibly this in one of the most important parts of the Bill. We have heard a very great deal, and we shall hear a great deal more, about the new Constitution in India, but it is obvious that without this Committee being prepared to realise that something must be done for the workers of India, those workers are justified up to the hilt when they declare that this Bill is a sham and a fraud so far as they are concerned. The importance of this matter is already within the knowledge of the Government, or it should be. As late as the 20th December, 1934, a letter was addressed to the Secretary of the Government of India by Mr. H. P. Mody, who is President of the Employers' Federation of India, calling attention to the desirability of early action to place British India and the Indian States on an equal footing with regard to labour legislation. The letter was a reply to a suggestion from the Government of India that, in examining the question of competition between industries in British India and those in Indian States, it would be of assistance to the Government to have particulars of conditions of labour in States in which developments tending to cause a set-back to industry in British India might be apprehended. The secretary of the Employers' Federation wrote:
    "My federation, representing as it does a predominant section of employers' interests, has accorded, and it is always willing to accord, its support to labour legislation conceived with due regard to the interests of Indian industries in the present stage of their development, but it is hoped that the Government of India will realise that industries in British India are bound to be placed in great difficulties by the adoption of standards which are not conformed to by the Indian States and which would enable the latter to become formidable competitors in British Indian markets."
    I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to the importance of this

    1171
    matter so far as it relates to the textile industry. Hon. Members get up almost day by day, and certainly week by week, complaining about Indian competition, bad conditions of labour, and the difficulties in the way of Lancashire competing, and I suggest that in this Bill and at this time they have an opportunity at, arty rate of getting the way prepared for social legislation in India which will do justice not only to the workers of India, but in a very great measure to our own workers in Lancashire. Let me quote again from this letter from the Secretary of the Employers' Federation of India:
    "The textile industry in British India, which is the one most seriously affected by the introduction of the 54-hour week, stands to suffer the most because of its rapid rise in the Indian States, where the hours of work are longer."
    Now listen to the figures that he gives, which make one think furiously when thinking about Indian competition with our people in Lancashire. He goes on:
    "In the year 1919–20 there were in the Indian States only 405,000 spindles and 8,000 looms, as against 6,300,000 spindles and 109,000 looms in British India. In 1932–33, however, the Indian States had 1,100,000 spindles and 21,000 looms, as against 8,500,000 spindles and 168,000 looms in British India."
    This Committee will note the general expansion of the textile industries in India and the enormous increase both in the Indian States and in British India. The letter continues:
    "It will be seen that the rate of expansion in British India has not been anything like so rapid as in the Indian States. This has been mainly due to the prevalence in the States of a lower scale of wages and taxation and inferior conditions generally, From the information available to the Federation, as yet no State has definitely undertaken to introduce the 54-hour week. Among the major States, in only one State is the matter under consideration; in some it has not yet been considered; and in others it is stated that the change is not likely to be inaugurated at present because of the existing trade depression."
    That is so far as textiles are concerned. The writer draws attention to the sugar industry and states:
    "The States of Mysore, Travancore, Hyderabad, and Rampur are interested in the development of the sugar industry."
    and that there is no attempt whatever to enforce such measures as Factory Acts, Workmen's Compensation Acts, or the
    1172
    social services which, at any rate in some degree, do obtain in British India. Then he calls attention to the position of coal mining. They say that
    "attention was called in the course of the letter to the remarks made by the member for industries and labour of the Viceroy's Council during a recent debate in the Indian Legislative Assembly to the effect that any regulation of coal output in British India would be seriously affected by the fact that a certain Indian State was capable of considerable production."
    All this means that unless we are prepared to say to the Princes, to the rulers of these States, "If you come into a federal scheme you must be prepared to recognise the social obligations to your workers, at any rate, to the same extent as in British India," confusion must follow and the conditions in the States ruled by the Princes will remain bad and will keep considerably worse the conditions in British India. All this competition tends against our own people in this country to a tremendously unfair extent. This statement of the employers goes on to say:
    "Admitting that seine of the States adopted labour legislation on the lines of that introduced in British India, the letter continued: 'Considerable delay takes place before the conditions are equalised. As regards the various Factory Acts, and their amendments, it is well known how the States have lagged behind British India. The workmen's compensation legislation of some of these States is still behind that in British India, and it is understood that the amendments already introduced in British India are being only now considered by them. Moreover, some States have only recently introduced such legislation, and others do not even contemplate doing so.'"
    The statement goes on to say that one State actually put on a duty of 5 per cent. against the products of British India. At the same time there had been a development of large-scale industries by financial assistance from the State Exchequer. All this shows the importance of the Amendment.
    I want to raise a further point with regard to our second Amendment. In 1924–25 I was honoured by being sent to Geneva as labour adviser by His Majesty's Government. There I heard debates on social matters affecting the lives of the workers all over the world. India was represented at that conference. Surely we are not asking anything very

    1173
    unreasonable when we ask that a Prince shall accept
    "as matters with respect to which the Federal Legislature may make laws for his State and his subjects any conventions or agreements made under the auspices of the International Labour Office of the League of Nations which the Federal Executive may ratify or to which it may become party."
    When I was in Geneva in 1925 I heard a speech from an Indian delegate which moved me so much that I have never forgotten it. It seems to me a thousand pities that in these Debates we do not hear the actual voice of the Indian worker and of those immediately concerned. If it were possible for the Indian worker to put his view on the floor of this House, he would say, "I would welcome a change in the Government of India if it were shown to me that by that change my conditions of life would be materially bettered." We have no guarantee of any such thing. The mere fact that it is necessary to put down these Amendments and the certainty that the right hon. Gentleman will oppose them and refuse to include them in the Bill will carry the message to the workers of India that this House is more concerned with satisfying the claims of the Princes than with satisfying the aspirations of the millions of our fellow subjects in India. The Indian whom I heard at Geneva in 1925 made the point which the Secretary of State made yesterday, when the right hon. Gentleman said that it was extremely difficult when we were 6,000 miles apart to get into contact with one another. The right hon. Gentleman made that point with regard to the difficulty with the Princes. May I point out that things happen in India about which nobody knows and nobody cares. Millions of people are condemned to an early death and pestilences and famines rage throughout the country. This happens 6,000 miles away, and only three lines appear in British newspapers. Millions of people are dying because nobody knows and nobody cares.
    We are always saying that we are trustees for the great British Empire. If that be true, why do we not protect those in India who are least able to protect themselves? It is necessary for somebody to put this point of view before the Committee, and it would be bad for the dignity of this House if a case were not put up for the Indian people. There is the
    1174
    question of health insurance. At Geneva I heard a great debate on social insurance, and everybody who spoke, including those who spoke from India and the Government representatives of India, declared themselves in favour of social insurance and social services. I heard the man who represented the Indian workers say that as an aftermath of the War influenza raged throughout India and 6,000,000 people died of it. What became of the widows and orphans who were left behind? Nobody knows. People die of plague in India, not every now and again, but year after year. In America, if they get a plague among pigs, they send out a commission to inquire into it. In India plague is taken as a matter of course. It is not the will of God, although it is, taken as if it were, that millions of people should die from plague. Their deaths might very well be prevented if proper steps were taken.
    Take again the question of unemployment. Anybody would think there was no unemployment in India. Thousands of men are discharged, slumps occur, trade is depressed and workers are turned away from the mills and mines. What becomes of them? It was suggested at Geneva that Employment Exchanges should be set up and that some attempt should be made to deal with the problem, but nothing of the sort has been done. India is too far away, and nobody knows and nobody cares. I heard it said at Geneva, and I have reason to believe that it is as true now as it was then, that more than half the children born die within the first 12 months. If we stand in the position of trustees to the people of India, we should be ashamed to allow that sort of thing to go on. I am told that 35,000 people in the city of Bombay sleep out in the streets with nowhere to go, and that you can find 30 people housed in one room not more than 12 feet by 16 feet. If we are to remain, as it seems to be the will of this House that we should remain, in the position of trustees to the people of India, these things call for remedy.
    The CHAIRMAN: I ought to point out to the hon. Member that neither of these two Amendments deals with British India. He must confine his remarks to conditions in Indian States.
    Mr. BANFIELD: I am sorry if I have transgressed, but I was carried away by

    1175
    the subject. However bad the conditions may be in British India it seems to be generally agreed that they are considerably worse in those States governed by the Princes. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Some of them, at any rate. If the report which I have quoted is correct—and it appears in "Industrial and Labour Information" published by the International Labour Office—it shows that while employers in British India are compelled to do certain things by law, other people in the Indian States are allowed to carry on precisely as they choose. He alleges, and I think in all probability he is right, that the conditions are worse in the Indian States. I hope that the Government will see their way to accept these Amendments. The cry of the poor and of the widow and children in India is a cry that should appeal to all of us. We must be prepared to say to these rulers that they must bring the conditions of their workers up to more reasonable standards unless we do that the conditions in India are bound to be considerably worse. I hope the Committee will hear the cry of the poor stricken masses of India and put something in the Bill to give them hope for the future.
    5.43 p.m.
    Lord SCONE: This is an occasion on which, however unwillingly, we on these benches are obliged to support the Socialist party to some extent. Our support does not extend to the second Amendment because we regard it as highly undesirable that what may be very likely an irresponsible legislature in India should adopt ultra Socialist ideas from Geneva and force them upon the Indian States. We are bound to have considerable sympathy with the first Amendment, not merely because of the arguments which have been advanced so ably, and with much more moderation than usual by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) and the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield), but because of one or two other considerations which I shall put to the Committee, as briefly as I can. It is certainly not in the interests of the native States themselves that conditions of labour there should be permitted to be, or to become, very much inferior to those existing, or about to exist, in British India. It may well be that there is and will continue to be unemployment of a
    1176
    fairly widespread character in some of the Indian States as well as in British India, and if, as is likely to be the case, unscrupulous Indian manufacturers rush out of British India to set up factories in the Indian States it is obvious that that will enable them to compete on an unfair basis both with this country and with British India. Moreover, if we see arising in the Indian States the uncontrolled industrial development which was such a curse to this country in the nineteenth century, it is certain that sooner or later conditions of great unrest will arise in those States, which would be of the utmost disadvantage to the rulers of them.
    The hon. Member for Westhoughton has spoken of the likelihood of tariff walls being erected round each State. Such a position would certainly be disastrous; but other conditions might arise which would be just as bad. For example, there might be a progressive State which had passed social legislation to ameliorate the lot of the people, and next door another State where there were no such provisions, and it is obvious that that would react most unfavourably on the lot of the more progressive State, because while unemployment might be prevalent there an unscrupulous employer in the less advanced State would be employing all the workmen albeit at very low wages and that would be an obvious disadvantage to the progressive Indian State, where there would be more unemployment although better conditions of labour. I do not think that consideration would be favourable to the propagation of more advanced ideas about the treatment of workpeople in States which have the advantage of rulers who are rather in advance of their time. It has always been the effort of the Conservative party to improve the lot of the worker, wherever he may be situated, and if we were to adopt at least the principles contained in the first Amendment, I think we should be doing something which would be of great advantage to this country, to British India end to the Indian States; because it cannot possibly be a good thing that uncontrolled industrialisation should be allowed to develop anywhere in native India. Accordingly though it may be with some reluctance at supporting the Socialists, my friends and I feel bound to give general

    1177
    support, at least, to the principle contained in this Amendment.
    5.49 p.m.
    Lord E. PERCY: These two Amendments are obviously Amendments with which everyone must feel the utmost sympathy, and I am glad that it has just dawned upon some of my hon. Friends that the idea of an All-India Federation has certain practical advantages in view of the growth of industrialisation. But while, obviously, one would want to gee that in any federation all these matters were the subject of uniform legislation, let us consider what this Amendment means to the Princes of India. It means that this House is to say to the Princes, "We will not accept your accession to the Federation unless you will agree that it shall be a closer federation than that in the United States of America." Is that a reasonable proposition to which to ask the assent of the independent Indian States? I think there can be only one answer to that question. Any such proposal would be unreasonable in itself, and would wreck any chance of an All-India Federation. I would remind the Committee that it has always been understood that the concurrent list would only be a subject of federal legislation as a means of confirming, unifying and standardising pre-existing legislation throughout British India, and, possibly, bringing into line one or two Provinces which might be behindhand in such legislation. It has never been contemplated, so far as I know, least of all by any representatives of British India, that this legislation in the concurrent list should be so widely used as has been assumed by the Mover of the Amendment.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: Does the Noble Lord mean to imply that some of the subjects included in this Amendment are not the subjects of federal legislation in the United States of America?
    Lord E. PERCY: Of course they are not. Not one of these subjects is the subject of federal legislation. They are also subjects of State legislation.
    Mr. DAVIES: Workmen's compensation?
    Lord E. PERCY: Yes. I am interested in that interruption, because it indicates that those who moved the Amendment have not yet realised the full length of
    1178
    the proposition which they would put to the Princes of India. It seems to me to be a proposition which this House could not support.
    5.51 p.m.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The Noble Lord has taken as an example the sole federation which does not include this legislation. Let him look anywhere within the British Empire. We have a union in South Africa, we have a union in Australia and we have Canada, and in all the federations this legislation is central legislation. I should have thought the Noble Lord would have been the last, person to bring forward America as an example for us to follow in this matter. The variation of the Jaws between the different States makes it impossible to get progress. One of the chief obstacles in the way of the President's new deal has been the State legislation in America. But that is not the point. This is a question of concurrent legislation, and, as the Noble Lord rightly says, the chances are that such legislation will not be brought into operation until a great number of Provinces have carried through the reforms. When the majority of the Provinces have carried through the reforms, surely then a native State which has not already legislated in the same direction might be brought up to date, just as much as Assam or the North-West Frontier Province.
    The real difficulty here is not the injury to the inhabitants of the native States left out of factory legislation. The real misfortune is that by leaving out the native States we give a, lever to all the reactionary forces in British India to say, "We will not do anything in this matter because if we do the factories will go elsewhere." Consequently, all the workers throughout India will suffer by reason of the fact that no such legislation is possible in the native States. I am not very well posted on the subject, but already we have the case of Kolhapur, where a number of mills have been built recently in which the conditions are not the same as they are in Bombay, and competition is going on between Kolhapur and Bombay, and no one could contemplate setting up conditions for the workers in Bombay and leaving it possible for the factories of Kolhapur to put the trade of Bombay in

    1179
    the background. I do not think Kolhapur is the only example; I rather fancy that in Nawanagar we have the same thing. Factories are springing up there and Bombay is suffering. There is also a port springing up in Nawanagar, and Bombay is suffering. Trade is going in through Nawanagar, where the Customs are on a different scale. So, in the case of factories, we shall get a development of factories in these native States run by cheap labour on the Japanese lines, and the rest of India held back because it is impossible, under this Bill, to bring other States up to standard.
    5.55 p.m.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: I am very doubtful about this Amendment. I believe we are much more likely to get humane and enlightened legislation from the enlightened Indian Princes than through representative government.
    Mr. EDWARD WILLIAMS: Then why have we not got it?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Some of the Princes are very enlightened, and quite a number of them have taken steps to effect improvements in health and education. I have had a good deal of information on that side of the question. The conditions in some of those States are just as good as they are in Bombay, and are likely to be better. I have a great deal more confidence, and the East has, too, in personal government than in elected government. In Oriental countries personal government is the only thing they understand, the only thing they have been taught for thousands of years. They do not know much about this peculiarly British product, representative government, and we are more likely to get fair treatment for the population from a Prince who has got no advantage to gain but the welfare of his people than we are from a lot of politicians. Politicians very often look after their own advantages; the business of a Prince is to look after the benefit and the welfare of his people. In our own history one of the reasons for the deposition of the Stuart dynasty was that the Stuarts tried to keep the "boss owners" from exploiting the common people. Undoubtedly that is so. The King always stood up for the common people. It is a curious thing that in
    1180
    history we always find the king and the poor linked together. James V had to go about as a beggar man in order to find out the truth as to the conditions of his people, because he could not get it from the nobility who were about him. I believe it would be better to leave the people of India with their own Princes, whom they understand.
    Of course, it is a terrible thing to go out to the East and to see the swarming myriads of people there. In China alone, in one rebellion, 138,000 Chinese perished—and nobody heard anything about them. In India we have plagues, malaria and all sorts of other diseases ravaging the population. We did a great deal to abate their severity, but immediately we gave self-government to Ceylon we saw all the sanitary measures neglected, because the peoples of the East do not believe in our regulations. But it is possible to convert a Prince and get him to understand that his people ought not to be degraded by industrial conditions such as we saw in the last century, and such as have been experienced to some extent in Bombay and other places where Indian factories are going up. I believe that the workpeople of India have a far better chance of a square deal from the Princes than ever they will have from a lot of elected politicians.
    5.59 p.m.
    Miss RATHBONE: I have a word to say on an aspect of this Amendment upon which no other speaker has touched. The particular subjects dealt with in the Amendment are merely illustrations of the anomalies created by the whole concurrent list. As the Bill is now proposed, legislation on these three subjects, and everything else on the current list, will not affect the native States, and in that way legislation in British India may be impeded through fear of competition from native States with advanced legislation. From a constitutional point of view—
    The CHAIRMAN: That is an aspect of the matter which does not arise on this Amendment at all.
    Miss RATHBONE: I am not sure that I understand you, Sir Dennis. I think that the point which I am trying to make cannot fail to arise. The point is that because of a lack of such an Amendment as this, or an Amendment of a similar nature that might apply to the whole of the concurrent list on very much the same

    1181
    grounds, we are placed in the extraordinary position that the Princes have no obligation to observe legislation in their own States on subjects in the concurrent list, but they can vote on such legislation in British India.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, but it is quite obvious that that point is out of order on this Amendment. Perhaps the hon. Lady would read the Amendment.
    Miss RATHBONE: I am most anxious to observe your Ruling, and I certainly will not pursue my argument if you hold that it is out of order, but my intention was merely to argue in favour of the Amendment on the ground that this Amendment and others on the same lines result in placing some responsibility upon the Princes in those respects in which they already have power. At present they have power but no responsibility.
    The CHAIRMAN: That is just one of the things on which we are constantly being obliged to say that it is legitimate just to refer to them in support of the Amendment, but it is certainly not legitimate to enter into an argument on the subject or a discussion of it at any length.
    Miss RATHBONE: I am sorry. I will say no more. I am sorry that I exceeded the limits of the Amendment.
    6.2 p.m.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Butler): This Amendment has raised very considerable interest in the Committee. I think hon. Members will agree as to the sincerity of the speeches of the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) and the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield), and will also agree that this matter must very largely be looked at from the point of view of practical politics. What the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) said in his contribution to the Debate was perfectly true; the proposal of the Amendment is not a practical possibility in the sort of federation which we are considering. If we are to have a federation of the sort which we contemplate, it will be impossible to lay down conditions such as are suggested in the Amendment, because they would be rendered inoperative and futile.
    During the history of the discussion of the concurrent list, and during our dis-
    1182
    cussion of the accession of different States to the Federation we have always laid down, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State specified a little earlier in the afternoon, that States should not accede to specified subjects, but that they should have an opportunity of certifying their accession to a general corpus of federal subjects in the list. Discussion of the Princes has throughout been on the basis of the federal list. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) will testify as to the discussions in the Joint Select Committee. The conclusions of the Committee on the subject of State participation in the cote current list were as follow:
    "We understand that the States, who are free agents in this respect, are likely in the first instance to take their stand upon the federal list proper and to accept the jurisdiction of the federal legislature in nothing which is outside the boundaries of that list; but we hope that in course of time they may be willing to extend their accessions at least to certain of the items—"
    and they mention two subjects in particular, bankruptcy and insolvency. I would be willing to voice an equivalent hope, but I am afraid that it does not mean that we can accept the Amendment, which has been so eloquently moved. There is nothing in the Bill, if that hope is fulfilled, to stop States from acceding to subjects in the concurrent list such as those which are particularly mentioned. Surely we should follow the example—I think we are obliged to follow it—and the precedent of other federations in regard to this question. There is no question of coercing the States to accept these subjects, but if the hope be ever fulfilled, the provisions about consultation which occur in the draft Instrument of Instructions which is before the House, and to which the Joint Select Committee referred in paragraph 234 of their report, would come into operation.
    A great deal has been said this afternoon about the conditions of industry and the condition of the people of the States. We cannot try to interfere with the internal administration of sovereign State rulers on such questions. I do not agree with many of the observations made, however sincerely, particularly by the hon. Member for Wednesbury, about the conditions of the subjects of Indian States. We have experience in this matter, and we believe that in many

    1183
    States conditions have been looked after very carefully by the Ruler, and that conditions prevailing are such as were referred to by the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten), when he paid a tribute to the attention which certain Princes have undoubtedly given to industrial conditions within their own States.
    I am obliged to remind the Committee that the scope of the Amendment is not as wide as it might be, that although there is industrial development in the Indian States it is not to be found in every Indian State by any means, and that the majority of Indian States are agricultural and their populations entirely agricultural. It is true that some of the States mentioned this afternoon, such as Baroda, Hyderabad and Mysore, have either industrial development or the potentialities of industrial development, but we should not exaggerate the scope of the Amendment at the present stage.
    Having traced the history of this subject in the Joint Select Committee and shown that, so far, the question has not been within the bounds of practical politics, I want to say a word about the other Amendment, which relates to international conventions. The States have always told us that they have been willing to accede on a particular subject so that they shall know exactly where they are. It will be impossible to lay down general conditions that the States should accept this particular subject. In view of the fact that we have Clause 106 in the Bill, enabling but not requiring the States and Provinces to be parties to an international agreement on not strictly federal lines, it will be wiser for the Committee to wait, before coming to a conclusion on the subject, until we discuss the provisions of that Clause.
    In conclusion, let me say that I think we should follow out the experience of other federations, and we tell the Committee very regretfully that we cannot accept this Amendment, which would involve coercion of the States to accept what they may not be willing to have. Examples from other parts of the Empire have been given. I notice that there was recently a debate in the Canadian Senate on the question of ratifying the International Eight-hour day Convention, and one senator, pro-
    1184
    testing against the ratification, said that they were laying unholy hands on the ark of the Covenant, owing to the fact that the central Senate had attempted to ratify the convention without consulting the various units. It has always been unquestioned that the units should be consulted in matters which affect India, and subjects of this character should be ratified only after the approval of the States and the Provinces has been obtained. For those reasons, I regret very much that we cannot accept the Amendment.
    6.10 p.m.
    Mr. RAIKES: I feel bound to say a few words on this Amendment, which is one of the most important of those that have been before the Committee. I very much regret that my hon. Friend has not found it possible to go into it more closely. The question of the welfare of the masses of India is one of the most vitally important that we have to face. It is all very well for the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) to say that in the federation of America there is no way by which States are bound to pass labour legislation; the Noble Lord knows very well that the positions of America and of the Indian States are totally different. He knows that in the States of America the working people have far greater opportunities of making themselves heard than they have in the Indian States. It is all very well for the hon. And learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) to talk about personal rule; it is not a question of personal rule, because these Indian Princes are often the most anxious to develop their States, and, I imagine, would be most willing to accept the opportunities of putting into force legislation to create better conditions.
    I should like to pay my tribute to the speech of the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield). I very seldom agree with the hon. Member, but he shows A real grasp of the scope of the subject, and a genuine desire to see that the masses in the towns of India, whether in the Indian States or in British India, have a fair deal under the Bill. I was also delighted with the speech of the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). It has not always been admitted that extension of the franchise by itself does not neces-

    1185
    sarily do very much to improve the conditions of the masses. We have to face the question of what are to be the future conditions of labour of the ordinary Indian worker. It is very much more interesting for the worker to know what the conditions of his labour are going to be in the factory than to know whether he is to have a vote, and it is better for him to be under a personal ruler in cases where he has good conditions than in a democratic State where he has not.
    The Under-Secretary of State said that we must not exaggerate, and that the Indian States were mostly agricultural. So they may be, but factories are beginning to spring up, and is there any reason why we, should not ask for equality for industrial workers whether it be in British India or in the Indian States? We see industries slipping across from British India to the Indian States; surely it is asking very little that the same conditions should prevail whether under conditions of pseudo-democracy or under an Indian Prince? It may be suggested that if an Amendment of this character were passed, it might effect, to some extent, certain of the Indian Princes coming in, but the most enlightened of them would, I am sure, welcome a scheme which led to improved conditions throughout India as a whole. I have never believed that the most progressive or enlightened of the Princes would be opposed to that. I am confident that the Government in their desire to improve conditions and the welfare of the masses of India, a desire which is not often given expression to by them in these discussions, but which they no doubt feel in their hearts, would be only too willing to assist the Indian Princes to realise the importance of a fair deal for the workers, whether in British India or in the Indian States.
    6.15 p.m.
    Major HILLS: We should have a very great sense of the importance of the, decision that we are taking. On the one hand, if we do not pass an Amendment of this sort, we leave India in something like the position of the United States of America. Everybody who has had anything to, do with labour legislation, and particularly with the international aspect of labour legislation, knows that in the United States the powers of the States, and the weakness of the Federal Government, form a great obstacle to any sort
    1186
    of international agreement. We have seen that over and over again, and we saw it in the difficulty of preventing the export of arms to the warring countries in South America. If we do not pass the second of these Amendments, we do to a large extent prevent India from entering as a unit into international bargains. The only way in which that can be secured is by getting the consent of all the States and all the Provinces. So far the argument is in favour of giving the Federal Government in India more power over legislation. I was much impressed by the speech of the hon. Member for South East Essex (Mr. Raikes), who spoke with a sincere desire to improve labour conditions in India. When I come to that aspect of the matter, I feel a good deal of doubt as to which would be the better for them, to be under a unified system, or to be under a system with a good deal of variety? I think the answer must be that, in the case of States ruled by enlightened rulers, they would probably be better off for the time being in the States than under Federation.
    Turning to the larger question, my hon. Friend below me is a good deal more of a federalist than I am; he wants a complete, absolute federation—the same sort of federation as prevails in Australia or in Canada. I do not think that that could be obtained now. Quite apart from the fact that I do not think the Princes would accept an Amendment of this sort, and for that reason alone I should be bound to vote against it, I think that on other grounds you would have to work up to it gradually—you would have to bring this vast, heterogeneous mass of States, with all sorts of different conditions, slowly up to a higher level; and I do not believe that that could be done now by forcing them all into acceptance of the federal power. For that reason, therefore, and also because I regard federation as the great thing which this Bill does, and I do not want to do anything that would wreck it, I am, with a good deal of regret, unable to vote for the Amendment.
    6.19 p.m.
    Mr. T. SMITH: I think it will be agreed that on these two Amendments we have had a fairly good discussion, in which there have been many expressions of view both for and against the Amendments. The Noble Lord the Member for Perth (Lord Scone), in his very interest-

    1187
    ing speech, said he would, be prepared to support the first Amendment, but could not go as far as supporting the second. He said that the Tory party had always been the party for giving the workers a better standard of life. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am pleased to hear that cheer; it shows that at least hon. Members are alive to what is taking place; but I must remind them that in the nineteenth century the Tory party, or a big section of it, was opposed to Measures similar to those proposed in the Amendments which we are now discussing. [An HoN. MEMBER: "What about Lord Shaftesbury?"] I think history shows that Lord Shaftesbury secured a good deal of legislation in spite of the Tory party. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) must also agree that, when women and young children were working underground in the mines, the nation was so shocked at the revelations which were made by a Royal Commission about the year 1840 that the Government were compelled to bring in a good deal of social legislation. I agree that, if these Amendments are carried, the Indian Princes may not come into federation, although personally I am doubtful whether they will come in at all. I do not think the Government ever intended that any of this concurrent legislation should be obligatory upon the Indian Princes. Paragraph 155 of the Joint Select Committee's Report begins with this statement:
    "It is proposed that the Ruler of a State shall signify to the Crown his willingness to accede to the Federation by executing an Instrument of Accession."
    It says later:
    "Outside these limits the autonomy of the States and their relations with the Crown will not be affected in any way by the Constitution Act."
    We have been told by various speakers this afternoon that the people of the Indian States would get far better social conditions by being left at the mercy of the Indian rulers than if these Amendments were carried. I will be perfectly open with the Committee; I have not ally Indian experience so far as visiting the country is concerned; but for a number of years I have taken a close interest in Indian social conditions, and have endeavoured to focus attention upon the conditions at any rate in British India.
    1188
    I notice that, in a discussion this week in the Assembly on a new Mines Bill that is being brought before that body, a statement was made to the effect that the resolutions of the International Labour Office were made for Europe, and ought not to apply to India. I am a little in doubt as to what is going to happen to the people in the Indian States. The late Speaker, Mr. Whitley, in his very excellent report on Indian Labour Conditions, made reference to the conditions in the Indian States on pages 472, 473 and 474 of his report, and I must call the attention of the Committee to this statement, under the heading, "Competition of Indian States":
    "We have referred to the increasing economic unity of India and the need for co-ordination in labour matters. Our inquiry, however, has related only to a part of India, for the Indian States lie outside our scope. But their presence cannot be ignored in considering the problems of British India, for they share increasingly its economic unity and its industrial development and are bound to exercise an important influence on its political development. They lie in some cases close to industrial centres in Indian Provinces; but the laws and regulations which protect labour in those centres do not extend across the boundaries of the States. A number of States have copied various Acts of the Indian Legislature; but, except in rare cases, their labour laws are substantially behind those of British India. Industrialists not unnaturally feel the danger involved in making advances in British Indian legislation while their rivals within the boundaries of the States remain unaffected by these advances."
    The motive behind these Amendments is to try to ensure that, if the Princes do enter into federation, at least they will be obliged to carry into effect certain social legislation if it is passed by the Federation; and I think the Committee are bound to admit that, whether the conditions in British India are better or worse than those in the Indian States, the conditions generally in India so far as working people are concerned are far worse than they ought to be. Our purpose in moving these Amendments is to try to get some guarantee that, if the Indian Princes do federate, this social legislation must be passed. I am wholly dissatisfied with the statement of the Under-Secretary. The suggestion that these Amendments are not practical politics is as old as the hills; it has come up every time that there has been any suggestion of social reform. I sincerely

    1189
    trust that the Amendment will be pressed to a Division, and that we shall get general support for it in the Division Lobby.
    6.27 p.m.
    Mr. G. NICHOLSON: I should like to ask my right hon. Friend three questions: First, will he give the House his word that he will give this matter most careful reconsideration before the Report stage? Secondly, has he good reason for saying that the inclusion of these subjects in the federal list would seriously affect the probability of the accession of large numbers of States? Have the States been consulted? Thirdly, while I am quite happy about the bigger States, I am not very happy about the smaller States. In the smaller States, where there have been industries and mines and where these have been entrusted to the agent of the Governor-General for that group of States, he has been very powerful in securing good labour conditions. Will that or a similar influence exist in the future?
    6.28 p.m.
    Mr. PALING: I do not think I have heard one good argument against the acceptance of these Amendments. Everybody who has spoken, almost without exception, has expressed sympathy with the principle, but has raised some kind of objection, which, in my opinion, was not very sound. The Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) said that we were going farther than the United States itself in its federal assembly, and he gave that as about the only reason why he could not support the Amendments. What he said was disproved by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), who pointed out that the Noble Lord had quoted the only exception, and that our federations within the British Empire actually did pass this kind of legislation. The hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) went back to the time of the Stuarts, and tried to prove that, if the Stuart Kings had been left to their own devices, things would have been much better in this country. I do not think, however, that we can get back to that time.
    The whole argument of the right hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills) was in favour of accepting these
    1190
    Amendments; indeed, I think he put forward quite as strong an argument as we could for accepting everything that is laid down here. He even went to the extent of saying that internationally it was necessary that that should be done. But he closed his speech by saying that he was sorry he could not vote for the Amendment. I do not understand that kind of argument. The Under-Secretary says that the Amendments are not practical politics. If he were to look at the Debates on Labour legislation in this country, he would find that on every occasion the same statements have been made. It is never practical politics. We do not accept that argument. He says the Princes will not come in. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) yesterday pointed out that at a certain meeting certain fundamental objections in his mind to the passing of the Bill had been made manifest. The Secretary of State replied that the objections might be very great, though they were not so great but that they could be negotiated. If we get these people together, I do not believe there is a single objection that could not be got over. If he is clever and able enough to get over the objections that we discussed yesterday, I think he will be clever enough to get over the objections that might be raised by the Princes to these Amendments. If one lot of objections can be got over, why cannot others, particularly in view of the fact that everyone agrees with the principle that is laid down?
    I have heard it said time after time that some of the Princes are very enlightened persons, and that they give better conditions to their people than exist in the Provinces. If that be so, I imagine that it would not need much argument to bring such Princes over to accept these Amendments. If they are putting into operation the principles embodied in this, why should they object to their being put into the Bill? The Under-Secretary says the Amendment is not wide enough and it does not embody all that we want, because the largest part of the States is agricultural, and presumably no provision is made for those people. If these particular Princes are not going to be affected by the Amendments, they wall not have much objection to them. There are enlightened Princes on the one hand who are already doing

    1191
    better than we are asking; there are others who will not be affected by it, and there are the persuasive powers of the Secretary of State himself and, in view of all that, why on earth should we not accept the Amendment?
    6.33 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: The hon. Member has made so attractive an appeal to me that I cannot ignore it. The Opposition are under a good many misapprehensions. They seem to think, first of all, that we should improve matters if we passed this Amendment. Secondly, they seem to think that the federal centre is necessarily going to be more progressive in its outlook on social questions than the federal units. I deny both those conceptions. Taking the second to begin with, it is very probable that the more progressive units are likely to the federated units rather than the centre. They will be much more closely in touch with social questions. They will be on the spot, and if hon. Members will look at the nonfederal subjects they will find on the whole that it is the non-federal subjects that principally affect the daily lives of the men and women living in the federal units. Therefore, it is likely that in the future the call for social reform will come much more from the federated units than from the centre, whose main duty, according to our conceptions of the Bill, is of a more technical character.
    Secondly, it is suggested that if we pass this Amendment we are going in some way to improve the position of the inhabitants of the Indian States. That is not the case at all. If we pass the Amendment we shall destroy federation altogether. The States have said quite definitely that they will accede to federation only over a certain field of federal subjects. They will not accept subjects in the concurrent list as subjects upon which they are prepared to accede, and the only effect of accepting the Amendment would be, not to improve the condition of the Indian States at all, but simply to make all federation impossible. I should have thought much the wiser course is to get federation started, and by that means to get a much closer contact between British and Indian India, and you are much more likely to get a strong body of opinion growing up on social questions. Then you leave these
    1192
    changes to come from the Indians. But nothing that we are going to do by rejecting the Amendment, as I hope we shall do, will stop the Princes taking action on these lines if they wish to take it. It is much better to leave it on that optional line rather than attempt to impose it by coercion, the only result of which will be to make federation impossible altogether. In view of all these considerations, and admitting that we all wish to see the standard of living raised in British India as well as in the India of the States, it would be unwise to attempt to impose coercion, which would only lead to the failure and disappointment of the hopes that we all have in our own hearts.
    Miss RATHBONE: Am I right in thinking that, if legislation on any social subjects within the concurrent list is passed by the Provinces, which the right hon. Gentleman has described as likely to be more progressive, it can be permanently blocked and overridden by legislation passed by the federal centre with the aid of the Princes whose States are not yet affected by the legislation which they pass?
    Sir S. HOARE: The answer is No, but we had better discuss the question in detail when we come to the lists. The Provinces could not legislate for federal subjects. The two fields are distinct.
    Miss RATHBONE: I specially said any subject within the concurrent list.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne): We had better deal with that when we come to it. It does not seem to be appropriate to this Amendment.
    6.39 p.m.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State talks about coercing the Princes. There is no question of anyone being coerced. If they wish to come into federation, as we are told they have offered to do, it will be a voluntary act. My right hon. Friend has repeatedly assured us that in no circumstances is pressure to be put upon them to take this step. But, if they take the step, surely we are entitled to press upon them the importance of this class of subject being included in those to which they subscribe. Surely we are entitled to do that. The Imperial power does interest itself in the fortunes of the masses of

    1193
    India and in their well-being, and now Parliament is asked to leave this on one side. The object is to get federation. Surely if we are going to have federation, if this great design is to be carried to completeness, it should be a federation which has as one of its central points a desire to raise and to unify labour conditions throughout India. In the present circumstances the very greatest difficulties will arise. One very revealing remark fell from my right hon. Friend when he said he thought the Federal Assembly would not be so favourable to progressive social legislation as would be the federal units. Here is a clear admission that he is trying to set up what is thought to be a reactionary—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I do not think we can discuss federation again on this Amendment.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I was merely replying to the statement of the Secretary of State. He said that the body at the centre would be less likely to concern itself with the well-being of the masses, with factory legislation and so forth, than the federal units, even than some of these despotically governed Indian States. It is a terrific statement.
    Sir S. HOARE: My right hon. Friend is unintentionally misrepresenting what I attempted to say. It is obvious, if he looks at the list, that the subjects concerned with the daily life of the people are provincial subjects, and always have been. That being so, it must be the Provinces which will be most closely connected with questions of social reform, and the movements for social reform are much more likely to come from the Provinces.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The proposal that is put forward is that an effort should be made to clothe the centre also with these functions, and that the Princes who accede to the Central Legislature should place themselves in a great area in which there will be an endeavour to establish uniform labour conditions as far as possible, and it is obvious that if there is not that attempt, all progress is arrested. Here is an opportunity for Parliament to strike this note in favour of not neglecting our duties to the great proletariat of India, and of placing before the Princes the fact that, now that they are coming into this system of
    1194
    federalism, which the Government assure us and them will be so greatly to their advantage, the least the Government can do is to endeavour to negotiate with them and ask them whether they cannot be induced to take on this burden. The most effective way of influencing the Government in that respect is for us to support our opinions by our votes. In all these matters Great Britain is making enormous sacrifices, and if the Princes wish to have this federal system they should, in my opinion, share in those sacrifices too.
    6.44 p.m.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: The right hon. Gentleman's reply does not seem to be quite satisfactory or quite logical. There must have been a particular reason why these matters were put into the concurrent list, the object being that the Central Legislature might legislate as regards these matters as well as the Provincial Legislatures. They must really have contemplated that there would be occasions on which it would either be necessary or advisable for the Central Legislature to legislate upon these matters. If that be so, surely it applies just as much and perhaps more so, to the position of the States, and where one finds vital matters of this sort, it is not, in our submission, a satisfactory answer to say that this may defeat federation. We do not believe in federation for the sake of federation, unless it is going to produce a desirable result in a federated community. One cannot just say that this or that is undesirable, because it may make it more difficult to get the Princes to come in. That is, in our view, a wholly unsatisfactory way of approaching the position. One has to say, What are we out for as the objective of this federation? Are we out for improving the conditions of the masses in India, or are we out merely for setting up a structure and a constitution which will operate despite the masses, and perhaps even adversely to the masses?
    We believe that the three matters which are mentioned in the first Amendment are all absolutely vital as regards the conditions of the people in the Indian States, and that a, federation which is brought about upon the basis of neglecting these fundamental rights of the inhabitants of those States cannot be a

    1195
    satisfactory form of federation. In fact one can put it in this way, that a Prince who is unwilling to submit these matters to the ultimate decision of the Federal Legislature is not such a person as can be properly, within a federation, entrusted with legislation and supervision on these matters over his subjects uncontrolled by the Federal Legislature. Therefore, we feel that even if it were true—which we do not for a moment accept—in the sense that it was accurate, we do not accept that this would stop the Princes from federating. We do not think that that is any good answer to the argument if one accepts, as I understand the right hon. Gentleman does, the basis of the Amendment in this sense that these are matters which are urgently necessary to be legislated for in India whether federated or unfederated, and it should be an essential part of the basis of federation that matters of this sort should have very early attention. When the right hon. Gentleman says that probably the more progressive units are likely to be federated units, one is entitled to say that that does not hold out a very happy prospect for the progressiveness of the Centre in these circumstances. If those units are likely to be more progressive, I can imagine no more healthy thing for India than that they should be able to utilise their progressive tendencies in the Federal Legislature so that those progressive tendencies would spread over as wide an area as possible, and for these reasons we certainly press this Amendment.
    6.50 p.m.
    Mr. TINKER: The Secretary of State in his reply put the point that the Princes would not come in to the legislature if this Amendment were passed. One of the things for which we are asking is that regulations for working the mines should be recognised by the legislature and the Princes. I have been getting some figures to-day from the "Colliery Guardian" on the position of mine workers in India, and I find that 12,799 women are employed underground. Let us assume that the legislature decided that women should not be employed underground. Would anyone in this House think it right for the Princes to say that women must be employed because they desired it in their Provinces? I
    1196
    think that the House would say at once that if the legislature decided that women should not be employed, the whole of the Princes should agree to it. The Princes will have a chance in the legislature of putting their point of view. They almost have full power there, and when once such a thing is decided by the legislature they ought to accept it as a body. If not, we should have the intense competition of undercutting each other.
    We have always tried to avoid that sort of thing here, and one of the arguments used by all Member of the House is that we are not able to compete with other countries because of the better conditions in this country, and we are trying to get the conditions of other countries made equal to ours. But if you allow the Princes to have the power to undercut each other, you will never raise the status of the Indian workers as it ought to be raised. Whatever may be the fate of this Bill, unless it embodies in it the welfare of the masses as a whole, this House ought to say that we cannot have it for the time being. It is an impossible situation to say "We will get this Bill through because we must do it this way in order to get the assent of the Princes." I do not put so much value upon them. I really put most value on the working class opinion of India—not on the Princes. I hope that the Committee will recognise the matter in that sense, and that the result of the vote will show their true feelings.
    6.53 p.m.
    Mr. E. WILLIAMS: I have listened to the whole of the Debate, and certainly it is the most interesting we have had, except perhaps that of yesterday, upon the India Bill. I was surprised to find the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary refusing to accept this Amendment. It seems to me that in rejecting the Amendment the Committee will acquiesce in the conditions that now obtain in the Indian States, and that no other conclusion can be drawn if the vote is cast against the Amendment. We have had reports read to us by my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield) and my hon. Friend the Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith) from which no other conclusion can be drawn but that the conditions generally in the Indian States are much worse than in the Provinces. It is the only conclusion to be

    1197
    drawn from the reports which have been read, but one has to assume, of course, that they are accurate. I have heard the Secretary of State on many occasions in this Debate state the importance of making the Federation an effective federation. How is it possible to have an effective federation if you have conditions that are so distinctly variable as between the Provinces and the States themselves. I look upon the Bill as really a superstructure that will rest upon a distinct foundation, and the foundation in all these matters is really the economic foundation which not only prevails in India but also in this country. Unless you can have some kind of economic homogeneity as between Provinces and States, it will inevitably give rise to political difficulties and probably political unrest, and difficulties of major importance from time to time. I am stressing this point because I think that the Minister will have to admit that, if you want effective administration in this matter, you must have conditions relatively equal as between the States and the Provinces.
    I was amazed to hear the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy). We have had evidence during various discussions of the last few weeks that there are some Conservative progressives, and that there are in the House a dozen or probably more hon. Members who designate themselves the Y.M.C.A. They are persons who believe in economic planning, and that there is need within the Government of evidence of progression and things of that kind. I was amazed to find that, in connection with this matter, something which obtains in the United States was thrown in our faces. It is true that it has been refuted by the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench on this side, but I am astonished to find that there is evidence of reaction coming from a quarter which boasts of progressiveness on matters that arise from time to time in this House concerning this country. I can still substantiate the statement that those who vote against this Amendment, obviously, will indicate that they are countenancing in India, particularly among the reactionary Princes, conditions of this kind.
    I hope that we shall have the support of all persons in the Committee, particularly the Conservatives who in this House state that the Conservative party
    1198
    as such have been responsible for progressive Labour legislation in this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Surely this is the time, if the echoing of those sentiments means that there is agreement, when they ought to cast their votes in favour of the Amendment. I wonder where the Liberals are in this connection. We have not had a single speech from the Liberal benches either for or against these Amendments. There is one Amendment which concerns the International Labour Office. Will not they support us in saying that what is decided by them shall apply to the Indian States equally with the Provinces? Are we not to have a word from the Liberals in this matter, or are they going to sit tight? I hope we shall have the support of the Liberals and of the progressive Conservatives who from time to time pose as being planners of the new philosophy, and that philosophy ought to be permeating the Government at this time.
    6.57 p.m.
    Mr. ISAAC FOOT: The hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. E. Williams) stated that anyone who voted for this Amendment would be acquiescing in the present conditions. That I deny. It seems to me to be a preposterous argument that anyone who supports Federation because we are inviting the Princes to join this Federation must be presumed to acquiesce in all the existing conditions in the States. I put it back upon the hon. Member, or upon anyone who supports the principle of federation, if his argument is true that by inviting the States to come into this Federation we are acquiescing in the conditions that obtain throughout those States. I do not acquiesce in any of the conditions obtaining in any of the States. I deplore them where they are below ordinary standards. I had an opportunity of dealing with that matter in earlier Debates in this House. There are in many of the States to-day conditions obtaining, especially if we were immediately concerned, which would be regarded as being intolerable, and I expressed the hope that we might be able to improve those conditions in two ways. If the representatives of the States came into a federation and had to work side by side with the elected representatives of the Provinces there would be a tendency to raise the standard in the States, and when the States were all brought to-

    1199
    gether those that were below the standard of the other States would be brought up to a better level. I think that as a result of federation things will not be worse than they are; I think they will be better as a result of the consultation and debate that must go on.
    The position I take up is that on this Amendment no one is better qualified to judge than the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State put in unmistakable language his argument for believing that the carrying of this Amendment would defeat federation. I am quite sure he would not have said that unless convinced by the experience that he possesses more than any other Member of this House. If that be so, then I want federation. I am not going to cast a vote, which, in the opinion of one best qualified to judge, would defeat what is the main object of this Bill. If that be thought to be inconsistent, it is the comment of many with the expressed intention of supporting the Amendment, because they do not want federation at all, because they want to defeat the Bill, and, not being able to do it by the Motion
    yesterday, are seizing this as another opportunity. Inasmuch as their face is set in one direction and mine in another, I propose to accept the invitation given to vote with the Government. It may be said that we are acquiescing in the present conditions in the States. If that be said, those who say it do not believe it when they say it, because it has been made clear that there are other conditions in the States—besides that in the Amendment—which call for condemnation
    Mr. BRACKEN: Would the hon. Member vote for them?
    Mr. FOOT: I would not vote for an Amendment which would have the same result as this. I am satisfied that you cannot without a Bill of this kind touch conditions in the States. With this Bill I think there is hope that they may be touched, and I shall support the Government.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 75; Noes, 234.

    Division No. 64.]

    AYES.

    [7.3 p.m.

    Allen, Lt.-Col, Sir William (Armagh)

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Nunn, William

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Balley, Eric Alfred George

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Banfield, John William

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Bracken, Brendan

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Buchanan, George

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Burnett, John George

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Scone, Lord

    Burton, Colonel Henry Walter

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)

    Cleary, J. J.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A.(P'dd'gt'n,S.)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Thorne, William James

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Kimball, Lawrence

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cove, William G.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Lawson, John James

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lees-Jones, John

    West, F. R.

    Critchley, Brig.-General A. C.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Levy, Thomas

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Daggar, George

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lunn, William

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Donner, P. W.

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Edwards, Charles

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

    Mr. John and Mr. Rhys Davies.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th.C.)

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

    Belt, Sir Alfred L.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Anstruther-Gray. W. J.

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Brown, Brig. -Gen. H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Blindell, James

    Buchan, John

    Assheton, Ralph

    Bossom, A. C.

    Bullock, Captain Malcolm

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Burghley, Lord

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Bainlel, Lord

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Horobin, Ian M.

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Rasbotham, Sir Thomas

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Howard, Tom Forrest

    Ruggies-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A.(Birm.,W)

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Salmon, Sir Isidore

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Jennings, Roland

    Salt, Edward W.

    Cooke, Douglas

    Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Kerr, Lieut-Col. Charles (Montrose)

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Kirkpatrick, William M.

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Knight, Holford

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Croom-Johnson, R. P,

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Shute, Colonel Sir John

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

    Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

    Cuiverwell, Cyril Tom

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Curry, A. C.

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine,C.)

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Dickie, John P.

    Liewellin, Major John J.

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Doran, Edward

    Liewellyn-Jones, Frederick

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Drewe, Cedric

    Locker-Lampson, Com.O. (H'ndsw'th)

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Soper, Richard

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Mabane, William

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Eady, George H.

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Eastwood, John Francis

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Spens, William Patrick

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Stevenson, James

    Eimley, Viscount

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian

    Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Emrys- Evans, P. V.

    Magnay, Thomas

    Storey, Samuel

    Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

    Maltland, Adam

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Evans, Capt, Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

    Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

    Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Fleiden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Milne, Charles

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Thompson, Sir Luke

    Galbraith, James Francis Wallace

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

    Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Morrison, William Shephard

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Munro, Patrick

    Train, John

    Gledhill, Gilbert

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Tree, Ronald

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Goff, Sir Park

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    North, Edward T.

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Wallace, sir John (Dunfermline)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro',W.)

    Peake, Osbert

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Grigg, Sir Edward

    Pearson, William G.

    Watt, Major George Steven H.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Penny, Sir George

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    White, Henry Graham

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Hamilton. Sir R. W.(Orkney & Ztl'nd)

    Pybus, Sir John

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Radford, E. A.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Harvey, Major Sir Samuel (Totnes)

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzle (Banff)

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Cheimsford)

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noake)

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Rickards, George William

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Hornby, Frank

    Robinson, John Roland

    Major George Davies and Dr. Morris-Jones.

    Amendments made: In page 3, line 38, leave out "to this Act."
    In line 38, at the end, insert:
    "to the provisions of this Act so far as they are applicable therein by virtue of his Instrument of Accession."
    In line 39, leave out "a declaration may be made," and insert:
    "an Instrument of Accession may declare that the Ruler accepts this Act subject to such provisions, if any, as may be specified
    1202
    in the Instrument, being provisions which are by this Act expressly authorised to be included in an Instrument of Accession, and that his acceptance of any matter as a matter with respect to which the Federal Legislature may make laws is subject to such conditions and limitations, if any, as may be so specified.
    (2) An Instrument of Accession may be executed."
    In page 4, line 5, leave out "declaration," and insert "Instrument."
    In line 7, leave out "conditionally or otherwise," and insert "with or without conditions or limitations."
    In line 11, after "condition," insert "or limitation."
    In line 11, leave out "declaration-.made by him," and insert "Instrument."
    In line 13, leave out "A declaration," and insert "An Instrument of Accession or supplementary Instrument."
    In line 13, leave out "the declaraiton of," and insert "executed by."—[Sir S. Hoare.]
    7.15 p.m.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 4, line 19, to leave out Sub-section (4).
    This Sub-section is not very easy to understand. I say definitely that I do not understand all its implications, and I very much doubt whether anybody else does. I remember many years ago, when I was a boy at school, a member of the Austrian Parliament, for the purpose of obstruction, spoke for thirteen hours. If we were obstructing this Bill I could beat that record, because in order to explain the Amendment it would be necessary for me to read the whole of the Bill. If hon. Members will refer to the Second Schedule, which begins on page 275, they will discover that this Sub-section deals with the matters in that Schedule. The Sub-section says:
    "The validity of any declaration under this Sect ion shall not be affected by any Amendment of the provisions of this Act mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act."
    When one turns to the Second Schedule one observes that practically the whole of the Act is mentioned, with certain exceptions. The exceptions are very numerous, and they are not expressed in precise terms. They are not expressed in the terms of the Bill which enable one to take out the various Clauses and Sub-sections to which Sub-section (4) applies. To go through the Second Schedule with another copy of the Bill, endeavouring to mark in the other copy of the Bill those features of the Bill to which the Second Schedule does not apply, because they are among the savings therein specified, means a task of many hours. I suggest that when we divide on this Amendment, if we do divide on it, no Member of the Commit-
    1204
    tee will be quite certain what the effect of his vote may be.
    We are all agreed that this Bill is a credit to the draftsman, but here is a case—I am not blaming the draftsman—where the circumstances are such that the significance is almost unintelligible. When I read the Second Schedule it looks substantially that if any Amendments are made in respect of the major matters in the Bill, the really big issues, then the declaration which the Princes have made is a declaration made under conditions which are going to be fundamentally changed. In other words, the alterations that can take place without the Princes having any grievance are alterations in respect of a great mass of matters each of which is relatively unimportant. On the other hand, where a matter of major importance is altered it seems to me, from the study that I have given to the "savings" in the Second Schedule, that the position of the Princes is altered. In that case, does it bind them?
    I do not know whether I am quite clear in this matter, because it is in itself in herently complicated. A Prince enters into a contract with the Federal Government. Having entered into that contract it is made perfectly clear that minor amendments when the Bill becomes an Act can take place without any particular Prince having a ground of grievance, because those alterations can take place, and it is part of his contract that they may take place. Suppose that later on when this Bill has become an Act, if it does become an Act, Parliament alters it in some major matter. Then the original terms on which the Prince made his accession are fundamentally altered. In other words, one party to the contract has proposed to vary the contract. In those circumstances is the Instrument of Accession still binding on the Prince?
    I often have to say that I am not a lawyer but only an engineer, and I find these things rather difficult to understand, even in spite of my association and friendship with the distinguished and learned Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Croom-Johnson), from whom I have learned many things. Can a, Prince resign? Let us suppose that 10 years from now, because of our experience, the then Government comes to the conclusion that this constitutional Act, as it then may be, requires amendment in respect of

    1205
    certain fundamentals which are included in the innumerable savings which appear on pages 275–278. Is every Prince then released from his contract, if he so desires? Clearly, we on our side will have broken our part of the bargain because we shall have Altered the Act fundamentally. This seems to me to raise issues of very extraordinary importance. If, on the other hand, the legal interpretation is that in fact the resignation—if I may use the phrase—does not properly follow from an amendment among the savings in the Schedule, then the Princes are, in effect, going to be bound by conditions which they did not contemplate. That, in turn, would be a gross breach of contract on our part.
    Once we have passed this Bill with Sub-section (4) in it, are we not in honour bound never to amend it in any fundamental direction? That seems to me to raise a very difficult point, unless my interpretation is inaccurate, as it well may be. I am not professing that I am right, for I feel that I am face to face with a problem of great difficulty. This is a Sub-section the reading of which is difficult, and I hope that we shall have some assistance from my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bridgwater, who is an ardent believer in the Bill. He supports it on all occasions, and therefore I have not the slightest doubt that he understands it. If he does understand, perhaps he will tell me and other Members of the Committee precisely what it does mean. Are we going to have a Sub-section included in this Clause of such a character that in some circumstances it may mean that the whole structure of federation may collapse, because if we make 'certain Amendments the Princes may withdraw? It is assumed that we cannot have a federation without the Princes. On the other hand, if the Princes are deemed to be bound for all time once they have come in, and it means that we cannot amend whatever faults are found in the structure of the Act, then we are face to face with a Sub-section of extraordinary difficulty which the Committee ought not to agree to until we have had it explained in a manner which makes the situation clear beyond any doubt, and makes it certain that none of the dangers that I visualise are real. I am not saying that they are real. I have tried to understand the Sub-section to
    1206
    the best of my ability, but I cannot understand it properly. It is most complicated, and I hope that we shall have the best legal assistance from the Government and from other quarters in order that our minds may be perfectly clear as to the significance of it.
    7.25 p.m.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I want to ask two questions. Under this Sub-section suppose there is an Amendment and a ruler does not accept it, will that mean that there will be two different bases for the Federation—one for the ruler who has not accepted the amended Act, that is, the original Act, and another for the rest of the Federation, the amended Act; one governed by one statute and another governed by another statute, differing in material particulars? Will a Prince be able to contract out of this Sub-section as a condition or limitation in his Instrument of Accession? Can he say, "I will accept, provided that no Amendment is made in the Act" or, "I will not be bound even by the Amendments that are authorised in the second schedule and if any Amendment is made to the Act then, so far as I am concerned, I come out." Will the right hon. Gentleman explain those two points?
    7.26 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: This looks a very complicated question, but it is not half so complicated as it looks, and I hope that even a layman like myself will be able to explain the position in a few sentences. The dilemma with which we are faced is this. Can you make alterations in any part of the Bill without impinging upon the Princes' Instrument of Accession? If we cannot make alterations, are we not setting up an excessively rigid states of affairs, particularly for British India? That is the dilemma, and the way the Joint Committee dealt with it, and the way we deal with it in the Bill is this, that we put into the second schedule the provisions of the Bill that affect exclusively British India and do not affect the States. If hon. Members will look through that very formidable schedule they will see that it contains all the provisions of the Act, or most of them, that affect only British India. Questions of that kind obviously should be amenable to future Amendment without endangering the basis on which the Princes have made their accession. If anyone looks through that long schedule

    1207
    I think they will find that there is no provision in it that could be said to affect the instrument upon which the Princes have acceded.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: There is the part which relates to the Commander-in-Chief. The Commander-in-Chief is to be appointed by warrant under the Royal Sign Manual. That can be amended. The Commander-in-Chief may be appointed by, let us say, the Prime Minister of India, and that might make a very big difference to the whole situation. As I read it, that is something which can be amended without any of the Princes taking exception.
    Sir S. HOARE: And for the reason that the Commander-in-Chief is essentially a British India appointment. The Commander-in-Chief has not that kind of official status in the Indian States that apparently my hon. Friend thinks he has.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: If the Commander-in-Chief fails in his duty, the whole show may go up.
    Sir S. HOARE: I do not think that a question of that kind arises here. I do not admit the contention of my hon. Friend, but when we come to the Schedule, if he then thinks fit, he might move an Amendment, and that would be the time to discuss a question of that kind. The broad answer is that these are conditions which affect British India, in which the States have no interest arising from their Instrument of Accession, and that the provisions in the Schedule can be amended without endangering the Princes' Instrument of Accession at all. If you amended the parts of the Bill which affect the States, obviously you would be altering the conditions on which they have acceded, and that would certainly create a situation in which the Princes could rightly claim that their Instrument of Accession had been altered. I hope that answer clears up the doubts of the hon. Member.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Not in the least. When you enter into a contract it is not merely the terms of the contract which matter but what is done. If one enters into a contract under certain guarantees which become entirely valueless because you have disturbed the rest of the native States, then matters outside his contract are of the utmost importance.
    Sir S. HOARE: That is a general argument and does not apply to this position. If the hon. Member looks into the question in greater detail, he will see that they are British India conditions, and there is no reason why they should come into the Instrument of Accession in the future. If the hon. Member has any further doubts, I would suggest that he raises the matter on the Schedule.
    7.33 p.m.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Surely there are a number of matters in Chapter 2 of the Second Schedule as to which Amendments are permitted which are not excepted by the long list of exceptions to that part which may be amended. For instance, there is such a thing as is dealt with by Clause 15—the appointment of a financial adviser. That seems to be a matter which can be amended. It is a matter dealing with federation, and may deal with an important aspect of federation. That is not among the exceptions in the schedule and may, therefore, be amended without having effect on the Instrument of Accession. There are a number of matters of that sort in Part II of the schedule which affect the running of federation, and which have nothing to do with British India.
    Sir S. HOARE: Provisions of that kind cannot be amended.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Yes. The heading of the Second Schedule is:
    "Provisions of this Act the amendment whereof is not to affect the validity of the Instrument of Accession of a State"
    save with respect to certain matters. Matters which are saved would affect the validity and are excepted; matters which are not saved would not affect validity. I give as an example the appointment of a financial adviser. He is not among the savings. I hear an hon. Member say something about financial stability, but financial stability and credit is dealt with in Clause 12 where the Governor-General has the special responsibility of safeguarding financial stability and credit of the Federal Government. All these matters mentioned in the savings come out of Clause 12, paragraph (b). There is the appointment of an advocate-general. It may not be an important matter, but it is clearly a federal matter and can be completely altered. You can repeal Clause 16 and have no advocate-general, and federation may get on just

    1209
    as well without, but it is clearly a matter which affects federation and has nothing to do with British India. Unless the schedule is meaningless Part II of the Second Schedule ought not to be there at all. It says that the things mentioned in Part II may be amended, except those matters which are detailed.
    Mr. ISAAC FOOT: The time to deal with this question is, I think, on the Second Schedule, but hon. Members imagine are agreed on the main argument put forward by the Secretary of State, that you must differentiate between the things which would justify secession and those things which would not. You have to guard against rigidity in this matter, and try to secure that in relation to British India there is a possibility of change and advance.
    Mr. BRACKEN: The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) forgets one thing. Suppose the Prime Minister of India were to appoint Major Douglas as his financial adviser. The Princes would feel that they were being grossly betrayed.
    Mr. FOOT: I think the question of such an appointment comes within the Clause we are now considering.
    Mr. THORP: It says any instrument affecting the appointments made.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think the Secretary of State should settle it.
    Sir S. HOARE: I am much obliged for the comments which have been made. I was generally correct in my answer to the hon. Member for South Croydon, with this one reservation that there are points of machinery, other than the items set out in the second Schedule, which can be amended without compromising the Instrument of Accession. The case he mentioned would be regarded as a question of machinery. The hon. and learned Member for East Bristol said that if the Princes were able to contract out it would result in there being two different systems of federation.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I was assuming that an Amendment is made, a material Amendment, in the Bill, and that the ruler of a State does not accept it. He need not, and does not accept it. He continues as part of a federation ruled by the original Act as unamended. The
    1210
    rest have accepted, and they continue under the new Act as amended. Therefore, there are two federations, one those who having accepted are under the new Act as amended, and those who have not accepted and remain under the old Act as unamended. They are running concurrently on the two different Acts. As far as I can see by this provision, having inserted the concurrence of the ruler, once you allow it, it does not affect his accession, he remains in, but you still have these differences between States who do not accept the Amendment, who remain under the original Act, and those who do. You may get every State under a different Act: Those under the original Act with one Amendment, those under the original Act with two Amendments, or with three and four Amendments. You will get the most extraordinary diversity of federation in India.
    Sir W. DAVISON: On a point of Order. If certain States do something which will not justify their secession an Amendment made in the Constitution shall not extend to them. If you refer to the second schedule there are -such important things as the constitution and federation of the railway authority. You may have one set of regulations dealing with railway authorities generally, and in two different States you may have different regulations obtaining under the original Act.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I allowed the hon. Member to ask a question, but he is now making a speech.
    7.42 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: The hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams) has put to me a very difficult question, but one which I think is very remote, and for this reason. An Amendment will have to be made by this House, and I cannot conceive of an Amendment of the kind he fears being made. Speaking off-hand, the result of such an Amendment, if it were carried, might be different in operation as between one State and another, but it appears to me to be so remote a case that I do not think we need take it into serious consideration.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: It comes to this that in actual practice if we want to amend the Bill we cannot without the

    1211
    prior consent of the Princes. Is that the condition to which Parliament has been reduced?
    Sir S. HOARE: It certainly means that we cannot amend any part of the Bill which affects what is virtually the treaties under which the Princes come in. If we make such a change in the Bill as to strike at the basis of their Instrument of Accession, then, obviously, the agreement has been broken between the Princes and Parliament, and the Princes are free.
    Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOX: There is a question I want to ask about the reservations in the second schedule and also the extra reservations set out there. Suppose it did happen that Parliament passed new legislation, would the Princes have the right to secede. If not, has secession been provided for in any part of the Bill?
    Sir S. HOARE: The whole object of the Schedule is to set out the part of the Bill which can be amended by Parliament without any question of the Instrument of Accession being compromised. Parliament would be entitled to amend that part of the Bill without any question of secession arising. If, on the other hand, Parliament decides to make a change in the Bill which alters the conditions under which the Princes accede, then, obviously, the contract with the Princes is broken.
    7.44 p.m.
    Colonel GRETTON: We are in somewhat of a dilemma. It would not be in order to deal with all the arguments on the Schedule, and I do not propose to do so. The Schedule, if it is passed in its present form, sets out a list of subjects to which the Princes are required to agree, and if any of them are altered by Parliament in any way it can do so without there being a breach of the Instrument of Accession. That is a large demand to make. Such a condition implies, as the Secretary of State has admitted, that there are a number of other conditions which would effect a breach of the Instrument of Accession. We are already going to have considerable variation in these Instruments of Accession. If Parliament finds it necessary again to legislate, and by that legislation violates the Instrument of Accession, what is the remedy? What is
    1212
    the remedy of the native States? It appears from the statement of the Secretary of State that if they can be so persuaded by the Secretary of State of the time, or by the Viceroy, they can come under the new arrangement, agree to the alteration in the Act and have the Instruments of Accession altered accordingly. The other remedy is to secede altogether. We are told that the Instruments of Accession are in the nature of treaties, and that if they are broken by one party the other party is free. Therefore the native States will have power to secede from the Federation. It is a point that we want to have made clear, that an alteration in the Instruments of Accession cannot be made by Act of Parliament only but must be agreed to by the rulers of the native States one by one.
    7.47 p.m.
    Mr. CROOM-JOHNSON: I cannot help thinking that this is a somewhat unreal point. Once the Constitution is working and once the scheme is in operation, the hon. Members who have spoken seem to assume that opportunities will be afforded to this House on frequent occasions of amending the scheme in fundamental points. I cannot conceive this House being invited to amend the Constitution in fundamental points without the Government of the day having taken the opportunity beforehand to consult both with the people who are governing in the Provinces and with the rulers of the native States. That being so, the suggestion that the Government of this country would intervene in order to make a fundamental change without having got the assent beforehand of the other party to the contract seems to me to be something over which we ought not to take a great deal of time.
    But there is then this other point of view, which is perhaps worth a little consideration, as to whether we might not provide in the Bill that if an Amendment is needed in the Constitution as affecting the native States, we need not be obliged to get the assent of every one of the rulers of the States. To provide for that in the Bill we might fix a majority of these native States and say that if they assent to some fundamental change—we might make the majority a high one—all the native rulers would be bound by it. I am only suggesting that as a way out of the difficulty if the idea of the Government is that the difficulty is a real one.

    1213
    But I cannot think that any British Government is going to make a fundamental change without having taken steps beforehand to ascertain the opinion of the other parties to the Treaty.
    7.49 p.m.
    Mr. ANNESLEY SOMERVILLE: Does my hon. and learned Friend imply that if a majority of the Princes accept an Amendment the minority must accept?
    Mr. CROOM-JOHNSON: Yes.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Would not such a provision in the Bill infringe the Instrument of Accession of those Princes who have not accepted?
    Sir S. HOARE: It cannot be a question of majorities and minorities. Each agreement has been entered into by a Prince on the one hand and the Crown on the other. You cannot force any majority decision on a minority.
    7.50 p.m.
    Mr. ISAAC FOOT: I suggest that the force of the Sub-section is emphasised by the Second Schedule. I know it will not be in order for me to discuss any part of the Second Schedule, but I would put this question to the Government: If we allow Sub-section (4) to pass without amendment and the Second Schedule becomes a part of the Bill, will the Secretary of State look at line 39 of that Second Schedule on page 275. It speaks of
    "the Council of State and the Federal Assembly and the manner in which they are to be chosen."
    That is one of the parts of the Act that is saved from the provision here referred to. Do I understand that if we pass Subsection (4) and later on adopt the Second Schedule, any alteration in the manner of electing the British India representatives to the Assembly would justify some complaint on the part of the Princes that the Instrument of Accession was not being observed? It seems to me that that is the effect of the Clause. I can quite understand that we are not to be at liberty in this House or anywhere else later to come to any conclusion that is to affect those with whom we are entering into a treaty, but I hope that the Second Schedule will not allow the Princes to have any voice whatever in matters which affect purely British India. If we decided later on to adopt the sug
    1214
    gestion that was made by some on the Joint Select Committee, that indirect election be changed to direct, we could not make even that change without asking the consent of the Princes. That is my reading of the Bill.
    7.53 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I can reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) at once. We must make the provision in the Schedule clear on the point. It is not our intention to exclude a question like indirect election from Amendments on the line that we have been discussing. What we are anxious to do and must do is to safeguard the position that is guaranteed to the State. When we come to the Schedule we can make that position quite clear.
    Mr. A. SOMERVILLE: In this Subsection we seem to have come to serious difficulties that fundamentally affect the Instrument of Accession of the Princes. At any rate, the Princes may very fairly ask to know exactly what they are entering into. I suggest that the best course to pursue would be to withdraw this Subsection, redraft it and deal with it on Report.
    7.56 p.m.
    Sir W. DAVISON: We are getting into a great dilemma. Either you give the Princes a power of veto on any amendment of this Constitution, or else it is quite clear that you will have two alternative constitutions running in different parts of India. I do not see any way out of that dilemma unless some amendment is made in this Sub-section. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Croom-Johnson) said he could not imagine this Parliament making any fundamental alteration in the Constitution without securing the assent of the Princes. The Secretary of State says you would have to secure the consent of all the assenting Princes, which would be a difficulty. Some would agree and one or more might not agree to the amendment. Either you give a power of veto to the Princes on any amendment of the Constitution, or else you will have two concurrent constitutions in different parts of India.
    7.58 p.m.
    Mr. THORP: This does seem to me to raise the whole question of the permanence of the Federation that is

    1215
    being set up. The hon. and learned Member for Bristol East (Sir S. Cripps) envisaged that what might happen would be that certain of the States were bound by certain provisions and that others which had not acceded were not bound by those provisions. That is a state of affairs which obviously will arise in the event of the ruler not assenting to any alteration of what I might call the matters mentioned on the right hand side of the Second Schedule. But there is another contingency. Where two people make a contract or treaty—this Instrument of Accession is a contract or treaty—if any alteration be made by this House in the matters on the right hand page of the Second Schedule, there is immediately a breach of the contract that has been entered into. Another hon. and learned Friend introduced some words of his own. He said, "If it was a fundamental alteration." The word "fundamental" does not arise at all. If it is the slightest alteration of any importance of what appears on the right hand page of the Schedule referred to, a Prince might say, "This is a variation of the contract into which I entered and, therefore, I am coming out of it." That means that he can secede.
    Carrying the argument a step further, if the basis upon which the Princes come in is a majority basis and if one or two go out, then it may be said with considerable force and perhaps some degree of accuracy, "If these people are going out then the whole lot are entitled to go out." That means that either the Princes who have come in will be entitled to go out, or else they are entitled to come in on one basis and not upon the other. One of those two things must happen. Otherwise, if ever this Parliament, the only Parliament which can make any amendment at all, alters any one of the matters referred to on the right hand side of the Second Schedule, the whole structure may come down like a house of cards. The Princes would be entitled one after the other to say, "This is an alteration in matters which we deliberately accepted as the basis upon which we came in and therefore we are all entitled to go out."
    The Secretary of State referred to this instrument as a treaty and used the expression that if that happened the ruler would be free. I accept that. The
    1216
    ruler would be free if any alteration were effected in these matters on the right hand side of the Second Schedule. In that case the whole thing might disintegrate. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Croom-Johnson) said first that this matter was not of the slightest importance or that it would never arise or words to that effect. Then he went on to suggest that it was of such importance that it ought to be dealt with by some special provision.
    Mr. CROOM-JOHNSON: My hon. and learned Friend must have misunderstood me. I did not suggest that it was of no importance but I suggested that it was not a thing which was very likely to arise. With regard to the second point I did not suggest that anything special should be done. I merely mentioned, as a helpful contribution to the Debate, the possibility of it being dealt with in a certain way, and the Secretary of State has since explained that that would be impossible.
    Mr. THORP: I am sorry if I misunderstood my hon. and learned Friend, but I suggest that the Committee ought not to pay particular attention to his powers of prophecy. He may, like all of us, make a mistake as to what is likely to happen in the future though as to the present or the past I cannot imagine such an extraordinary thing happening. But with regard to the point which I was making, I think the question put by the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) might go a step further. He might ask (a) Are you going to have different rulers in the Federation upon a different basis and subject to different terms, and (b) If they take the view that any variation is of. sufficient importance, does it rest with them to say that they will wash their hands of the whole thing, causing the Federation to disintegrate? I suggest that that must follow and that the only alternative is that this Parliament is never to make any alteration in any of those matters.
    8.5 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) asked a specific question which my right hon. Friend through inadvertence omitted to deal

    1217
    with, and I shall answer that question at the outset. The hon. and learned Member asked whether a ruler could contract out of Sub-section (4); that is, put it forward as a condition of his accession that no amendment would be made even of the accepted subjects which might affect his interests. The answer is "No." The only general provisions of the Act which can be qualified in the Instrument of Accession are those which are expressly authorised by the Act to be included in the Instrument.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Can they not make conditions or limitations?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: No, Sir. If the hon. and learned Member will refer to the new words which have been inserted he will find that they read as follows:
    "an Instrument of Accession may declare that the Ruler accepts this Act subject to such provisions, if any, as may be specified in the instrument, being provisions which are by this Act expressly authorised to be included in an Instrument of Accession, and that his acceptance of any matter as a matter with respect to which the Federal Legislature may make laws is subject to such conditions and limitations, if any, as may be so specified."
    I gave instances last night of matters which are outside that because there is no express authorisation.
    Mr. THORP: What about Clause 6 (1, b).
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL: That deals now, as amended, simply with matters specified in the list. This is quite a different matter. As the Secretary of State explained the machinery of the Act is accepted and then as regards certain matters there is express authorisation as to qualification. Clause 124 also deals with that matter. I do not want to cover ground which has already been traversed but I would like to reassure the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. A. A. Somerville) that my right bon. Friend the Secretary of State does not feel in any dilemma in regard to this matter and does not feel that there is the slightest reason for not sticking to the Clause. The problem is one which emerged to my right hon. Friend and to the Joint Select Committee at an early stage in these discussions. It stands out at once. The States will only agree to federate in a structure which,
    1218
    within limits, is definite and certain and obviously we could not completely alter the structure afterwards. The purpose of this Clause is to lay down those matters which can be altered without being regarded as fundamental or as impinging on the Instrument of Accession. We think the Clause is adequately drafted and is in the best terms for that purpose.
    If the structure were to be altered in fundamental respects, of course the States would clearly have the right to say, "This is not the Federation to which we acceded." One can always contemplate possible difficulties especially in constitutional matters. We have been engaged—quite rightly and I make no complaint about it—in what my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General the other evening, quoting from Lord Balfour, described as considering the grounds of divorce before entering upon the problems of matrimony. In regard to all these constitutional questions one can always imagine difficult situations arising, but I think as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Croom-Johnson) said, it is difficult to imagine any Parliament in this country making any fundamental change without thoroughly exploring the matter with the States first, finding out their attitude and arriving at a workable solution having proper regard to the rights of the States under the Instrument of Accession.
    8.10 p.m.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Neither the explanation which we have been offered by the Secretary of State or that of the Solicitor-General is satisfactory. Surely it is the maddest thing in the world to go into a federation with a gap in your legislation and to say, "We do not think anything will ever happen." It is precisely that type of thing which wrecks a federation or anything else. The hon. and learned Gentleman, I know, will agree with me that, if it is possible, one ought never to get into a position of that kind. Something quite unexpected may turn up, something that was thought to be most unlikely, and then you find there is no provision by which you can deal with it. That is a fatal position into which to be led, especially when one can see in advance the possibility of difficulty arising as the right hon. Gentleman and the

    1219
    hon. and learned Gentleman admittedly do with regard to this Clause.
    The right hon. Gentleman said he was trying to do two things here, first to attain a certain flexibility, which we all agree is necessary in a Constitution of this sort and secondly, to attain a certain degree of permanence in the Instrument of Accession. Equally we agree that as much permanency as possible is wanted in that respect if you are to have a Constitution of this kind. But if you say that you are going to attain the maximum of flexibility how can you say that the alterations which are going to be made will not matter? The whole object of flexibility is to make material alterations in the Act. These may be of two classes. They may be such as will affect the Instrument and then a Prince will be able to withdraw if he does not agree. That is not the case dealt with in Sub-section (4). Secondly, they may be alterations in this Act—which is to form the basis of acceptance by the British Crown of these Instruments—expressly stated by this Sub-section (4) not to affect the Instruments. Well and good so far.
    If that were the end of the situation there would be no trouble, though some of these matters are of importance. There is, for instance, that dealing with the oath which is to be taken—a matter which has caused difficulty in other places in the British Empire. That is one of the things which can be altered. If that is altered—and the provisions here in Subsection (4) state that it shall not affect the Instrument of Accession—well and good. Everybody would be governed by it and there would be no trouble. The Act as amended would rule the whole Federation. The trouble arises from the fact that although you say that that is something which is not material enough to alter the basis of the Instrument, yet you also say that the ruler can refuse to accept such an Amendment. That is the illogical part of Sub-section (4). You do not put the matter right outside and say that it is so basic that the Instrument of Accession goes altogether and that there must be a new treaty. You say that it is not fundamental enough to alter the Instrument but you say to those who have come in on that basis and who, we are told by the Solicitor-General, cannot contract out, "We give you power
    1220
    when the Amendment is made to say that you do not accept it."
    What will be the position supposing one of these Sections—for example, Section 15—is repealed and one of the Princes, one of these 300 or 400 Princes who, the right hon. Gentleman hopes, will be in by that date, says, "I will not accept that anyway; I have another little 'grouse,' and I will take advantage of it here"? I am just giving an example. Say the financial adviser has been done away with. He has to persist so far as that one State is concerned, he is still a part of the federal institutions as regards the one State which refuses to accept the Amendment, and therefore Section 15 is in full operation, and the Governor-General has to appoint some person to be his financial adviser. It is the duty of the financial adviser to assist with his advice the Governor-General, and he has to advise about that part of the federal structure which affects only one State.
    I merely take that as an example. Such a case might arise and might lead to infinite possibilities of making difficulties hereafter, not necessarily real difficulties, but affording an opportunity for someone who has some other matter to complain about to make a difficulty with the Government of India and the Federation. I suggest quite earnestly—I am not trying to put this from any party point of view—that the Secretary of State might consider whether, once a matter has been amended and comes within the permissible Amendments which are the basis of the Instrument of Accession, it ought to be for the Prince to accept it or not. That is the only way that I can see by which the right hon. Gentleman will make this a workable thing at all and avoid what may be infinite difficulties in the future.
    8.17 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I will take note of what the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) says, and I will take note also of the spirit in which it has been said. The difficulty in my mind in going further is that outside the permissible field of Amendments there may still be questions which none the less impinge upon the Instrument of Accession; but I will keep the point in mind and see whether the words now in the Sub-section meet my difficulty and his.
    8.18 p.m.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: I shall in a moment ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, having regard to the interesting statement of the Secretary of State. I realise that the issue raised by the Amendment is very much bigger than I at first contemplated. It seems possible that, if we passed this, we should create a constitution practically unalterable for all time. This Amendment has raised issues of such fundamental importance that, having regard to the declaration of the Secretary of State and the remarks of the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps), and having regard to the fact that it is bound to come up again in detail on the Second Schedule, it is desirable that we should not challenge any issue at the moment, but that we should all realise that there is a problem still to be solved. I do not believe the solution exists in the Sub-section as it stands, and, in view of what the Secretary of State has said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    8.19 p.m.
    Amendments made: In page 4, line 19, leave out "declaration" and insert "Instrument."
    In line 37, leave out "declaration" and insert "Instrument."
    In line 38, leave out "declaration made" and insert "Instrument executed."
    In page 5, line 1, leave out Subsection (7).—[Mr. Butler.]
    8.20 p.m.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 5, line 5, at the end, to insert:
    "(8) Notwithstanding anything in this section no Instrument of Accession of a State shall contain any provision by or under which that State is exempted from the operation of any provisions of an Act of the Federal Legislature which impose taxation on the Governors' Provinces."
    This again raises, in a rather different way, the whole issue of federation, in which certain parts bear a different relation to the central organisation than other parts bear. This is really the third time to-day that we have discussed this question. We discussed it on the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies), in regard to labour conditions; we have just
    1222
    been discussing it on my previous Amendment whereby some amendment might take place in the Constitution so that the position of one State in relation to the Federation might become different from that of another State; and now we are raising the question whether a State shall be treated differentially in taxation from another State or from a Province. It raises matters of very great issue indeed. It happens to be true that I have not devoted as much time as I should have liked to the problem of the finances of India, and one of the reasons is that I find the problem very difficult because they wilt put their commas in the wrong place. I do not know who invented the system of lakhs and crores and all the rest of it, but we have learned much from the East in regard to arithmetic and algebra, which we inherited from the Arabs, and geometry, which we got from the Egyptians, but I wish they had got their arithmetic from us, because I am certain that the Secretary of State, who has been brought up on the good but irrational system of pounds, shillings, and pence, is in even greater confusion than was the late Lord Randolph Churchill when a fly walked over the Budget paper and there was a question as to what a certain mark meant. In these circumstances, I shall only raise the issue on the general principle. I have not studied it in detail, but I understand that the Noble Lady the Member for Perth and Kinross (Duchess of Atholl) is anxious to raise the issue, which she has studied more closely than I have, in some detail.
    8.24 p.m.
    Mr. EMMOTT: I confess I am not prepared to deal with this subject in the way that I should have liked, but I think I may usefully occupy a very few moments in putting before the Committee certain considerations which arise out of evidence that was given before the Joint Select Committee. It will be remembered that important evidence was given to that committee by the gentlemen who represented the Chamber of Princes. I have studied that evidence with very great interest and attention and I should like to give to the Committee certain passages from it. It was laid down clearly that the view of the Standing Committee of the Chamber of Princes was that the proposals relating to federal finance which had been before them required further examination than they had re-

    1223
    ceived up to that time, and that no direct tax should be imposed by the Federal Government within the States. Then there is a passage in the memorandum placed before the Joint Select Committee on behalf of His Highness the Maharaja of Kashmir which I should like to read to the Committee. It is this:
    "The Federal Government should, in no circumstances, be authorised to impose a direct tax or levy in Indian States. If, on the occurrence of an emergency, the resources of the Federal Government are so low as to make it impossible for them to meet the situation, it should not be difficult to devise means by which the States could make a contribution to the Federal fist on an equitable basis without undertaking liability for direct taxation … His Highness' Government are aware that the representatives of some States did, at the Third Round Table Conference, express their willingness to shoulder the burden of the Corporation Tax, or in the alternative, to pay to the Federal Government a sum equivalent to the estimated value of the Corporation Tax. His Highness' Government are opposed to the imposition of a Corporation Tax in any shape or form, direct or indirect."
    The four gentlemen who gave evidence to the committee on behalf of the Chamber of Princes were examined on this subject by various members of the committee. Lord Rankeillour, at question 2312, asked:
    "I understand you are prepared to make a contribution to the common expenses of the Federation?"
    The answer was, "Undoubtedly." The next questions and answers were:
    "But not by way of direct taxation?—Not by way of direct taxation. That is to say, we do not desire that the Federal Government either directly to assess or directly to collect taxes from our subjects.
    But if you have to make a contribution and you do not make it by direct taxation, how would you propose to make it?—By the indirect taxes which will be entirely in the control of the Federal Government."
    In a later answer, one of these four gentlemen, replying to Mr. Zafrulla Khan, who asked what action would be taken by the States in certain contingencies, said:
    "In the third alternative that is in case all other sources have been tried, and indirect taxation has been tried to the utmost, then it becomes not merely a question of normal balancing of the budget but of a financial crisis in which case extraordinary measures not of a general character, but of a special and specific character, will have to be taken. The normal resources of the Federation must come from its normal sources of revenue,
    1224
    and as normal sources of revenue, we are not prepared to consider direct methods of taxation; but in matters arising out of a crisis, or arising out of an extraordinary period of depression or suffering in credit, in such a case it becomes an extraordinary occasion, and, by extraordinary measures."
    There may be a misprint there, but that is how the answer is given. The reply continues:
    "These are to be met either by way of contribution, or otherwise; we have no objection to meet a special situation; but as a normal course of procedure we are not prepared to accept direct taxation."
    Then he is asked:
    "If for purposes of normally balancing the budget direct taxes have to be levied on British India that must be done on British India alone. The States are not prepared to come in on a proportionate basis?"
    The answer was:
    "We are not prepared to accept this proposal of direct taxation as a. normal procedure."
    All I want to say upon that remarkable series of questions and answers is this. It is perfectly plain that indirect taxation is the only kind of taxation that the rulers of the States are prepared to allow to operate within their States. Not one rupee will the rulers of the States allow to be levied by the Federal Legislature upon their subjects by way of direct taxation. Not one rupee will the rulers of the States allow to be collected by agents of the Federal Legislature from any of their subjects by way of direct taxation. Indirect taxation, it is true, rests on another footing. But is this a situation which British India will accept with equanimity? I cannot believe it. Circumstances may very quickly arise that will necessitate the raising of considerable revenue which will not be made available only by indirect taxation; yet here we have this absolute refusal on the part of rulers of the States to consider the application of direct taxation to their subjects. I seriously suggest to the Government that this is a fiscal problem which may very rapidly become one of great importance and difficulty. I am not prepared at the moment to carry the matter further than to ask the Secretary of State to indicate whether this is a situation upon which His Majesty's Government have formed any views which they can give to the Committee. I suggest for his consideration that the im-

    1225
    plications of the passages from the evidence I have read are of a serious nature; and on the deductions which it is proper to draw from them I rely in supporting this Amendment.
    The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Mr. J. C. Davidson): This Amendment raises a question of great importance, but I must say at the outset, for reasons which I will give in a few sentences, that we are not able to accept it. For one thing, under no circumstances would the Princes enter the Federation if this Amendment were accepted, and that is an object which we all desire to see achieved. The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Emmott) quoted from the evidence submitted to the Joint Select Committee, but he did not quote or give the real reasons which have led the Princes to take the view that under no circumstances will they permit direct taxation to be imposed by the Federal Government in normal circumstances. They have expressed their unwillingness to do so on two grounds. The first argument which they used was that part of the expenditure of the federal fisc, to which they contribute by way of indirect taxation, will be solely for British India purposes, namely, to aid the deficit Provinces. They feel that they are making through the taxation which they are paying to the federal fist a direct contribution to British India and British India alone. They also argued that more than four-fifths of the central revenue will come from indirect taxation which will be paid equally by States' subjects and by British Indian subjects. It can be argued, also, that the salt tax is an All-India tax, and that, subject to certain provisions for immunity in certain States, States' subjects pay that tax as well as the subjects of British India.
    I think these arguments must be put before the Committee, because it is the other side of the case, which has not been equally explored. Further, profits, which are earned in considerable volume in the Indian States, are brought to account, and are therefore taxable, to a very large extent in British India. That is an argument which has been used and which, it must be admitted, has some force, by the representatives of the States. A last argument which they have used, and by no means the one which carries the least weight, is the fact that
    1226
    unlike British India they make a direct contribution by the expenditure of their own taxes in their own States, to the defence of India by maintaining, according to their requirements and in differing degrees, State forces which are available in some cases for overseas service, and are available in any case for the defence of India and for the maintenance of internal security. For these reasons, which they believe to be good, and which I do not think have been effectively challenged in any quarter, they have expressed their unwillingness to make themselves amenable to direct taxation, and I therefore have to inform the Committee that the Government cannot accept the Amendment.
    8.40 p.m.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: I am afraid that I do not feel that I can accept my right hon. Friend's explanation of the Government's refusal of this Amendment as being at all satisfactory. In effect, he told us at the beginning of his speech that the Government want the Princes to come in, and therefore they are ready to accept a financial arrangement as between the States and British India which I believe to be without parallel. He indicated, I think, that the Government did not really approve of the arrangement, but there it was; they had to bring the Princes in, and so they were going to swallow this arrangement. My right hon. Friend has given us the reasons put forward by the Princes' representatives for their refusal, reasons which, to people living in a country where direct taxation plays so big a part in furnishing the revenue, seem very strange. But I do not think he gave us quite all the picture. He did not remind us, for instance, that the Princes had desired an assurance as to the solvency of this Federation before they came in. That was mentioned by Sir Malcolm Halley in his Memorandum of July, 1933, and it does seem very possible that it was fear of the financial difficulties into which the Federation might drift, owing to extravagant administration, that made them so chary of accepting what seems to us a natural share of the burden of federal defence.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Spring-burn (Mr. Emmott) quoted some very important passages from the evidence in which the Princes' representatives made

    1227
    clear their refusal to submit to direct taxation except in an emergency, but he did not remind us of the fact that at one stage in the Committee's proceedings it appeared as if a formula had been arrived at by which this difficulty would be smoothed over. I think that was at the end of the Summer of 1933, when a formula had been found which seemed to satisfy the Princes; but in November, 1933, just before the Indian delegates returned to India, the Minister of Bikanir repeated the refusal made earlier in the year to the Joint Select Committee. He told the Committee that they would not submit to any form of direct taxation. I think that was a very significant declaration. It seemed to me at the time to indicate an obvious and a growing reluctance on the part of the Princes to enter the Federation, a reluctance which has been made very much clearer in the last day or two.
    This is a very big question. We have this reluctance of the Princes on the one hand, fear of the insolvency of the Federation, and fear, upon various grounds, of entering the Federation. To us, accustomed to regard direct taxation as the most natural and fair form of taxation, if it be not excessive, it does seem a very strange refusal, and seems to make a very lopsided arrangement in finance. My right hon. Friend told us of the large share which, in other ways, the States were contributing to federal revenues, and how British India was going to benefit largely from those revenues, but he did not remind us that the States are also going to benefit directly through the remission of their tributes, which is recommended in the case of those who enter the Federation. Therefore, while I am sure that hon. Members on all sides of the House wish to see the Princes fairly treated in this Federation, and all their rights respected, this strikes us as being a very anomalous arrangement. It is an arrangement without parallel, I imagine, that one group of parties to a federation should have to submit to direct taxation, and, as at present, to surcharges on their direct taxation, while another group of parties refuse to submit to that form of taxation. To me that seems clearly to illustrate the unwillingness of the Princes to enter the Federation. On the other hand, I agree
    1228
    with my hon. Friend the Member for Springburn that it is likely to cause much ill-feeling among the representatives of British India. I can imagine that this refusal of the Princes may have been one of the factors that led the Indian Assembly the other day to reject the proposal for an All-India Federation. It is likely to cause friction between the two sides of the Federation, and therefore not to offer that promise of smooth working which, if federation is ultimately to come about, we must all desire.
    Amendment negatived.
    The following Amendment stood upon the Order Paper.
    In page 5, line 7, at the end, insert:
    "(9) The Secretary of State shall cause every Instrument of Accession which has been accepted by His Majesty to be laid before Parliament."—[Sir B. Craddock.]
    The CHAIRMAN: I understand that the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Sir R. Craddock) wishes to move his Amendment in a slightly different form, and in the form in which he has handed it to me.
    8.47 p.m.
    Sir REGINALD CRADDOCK: I beg to move, in page 5, line 6, at the beginning, to insert:
    "As soon as may be after any Instrument of Accession or supplementary instrument has been accepted by His Majesty under this Section, copies thereof shall be laid before Parliament and."
    The Amendment which I have moved in its changed form is very simple, but it has had rather a chequered career. The first version of the proposal was:
    "Authenticated copies of every Instrument of Accession shall be lodged by the Governor-General at the offices of the Judicial Court of the Privy Council in Loudon and at the offices of the Federal Court in Delhi and such authenticated copies shall be open to the inspection of any person."
    The object of the Amendment as then drafted, and of the one now before the Committee, is the same, namely, to secure that authenticated copies of these Instruments of Accession should be available in the proper place and at the proper time, whether before this House or before the courts. It was suggested to me by an expert that that object would be gained by simply requiring that authenticated copies of the Instruments of Accession should be laid before Parliament. Subsequently

    1229
    a further suggestion was made that, instead of introducing a new Sub-section (9), I should add these words to Subsection (8), because the Sub-section would then read better and would be more convenient. After considering that suggestion, I readily fell in with it.
    I must mention a very small verbal Amendment which will have to be made in line 7 as a consequential Amendment. As amended, the new Sub-section (8) would read as follows:
    "(8) As soon as may be after any Instrument of Accession or supplementary instrument has been accepted by His Majesty under this Section, copies thereof shall be laid before Parliament and all courts shall take judicial notice of every such instrument."
    The Amendments carry out the purpose which I have in view and emphasise how very necessary it is that authenticated copies of these documents should be available, not only in order that this House may be acquainted with them, but in order that there should be no risk of mistake being made because of an unauthenticated document being produced before a court which has to deal with federal questions. It has to be remembered that, as time goes on, points regarding the meaning and the wording of an Instrument of Accession may come before the courts many years after the original authors are dead, and contentions will be put forward with regard to the interpretation of the Instrument. It must also be remembered that other parts of the Bill provide that details have to be entered on such Instruments of Accession, namely, as to privileges and immunities and their annual cash value, as well as details as to how, if no cash value has been ascertained, that value should be ascertained. All these extra requirements in the Instruments of Accession, which require to be published in the court, makes it very necessary that no mistake should be made about the authenticity of the documents, and that the courts shall only take judicial notice of the document if it is authenticated. I am given to understand that if the document is laid before Parliament it will be a document of which the court can always take judicial notice
    8.52 p.m.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip): My hon. Friend has so fully and clearly explained this Amend-
    1230
    ment that I need say nothing about it except that we are very glad to accept it.
    Sir R. CRADDOCK: I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 5, line 7, leave out "Instrument of Accession" and insert "such Instrument."—[Sir R. Craddock.]
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    8.53 p.m.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: We do not intend to let this Clause go without saying a word or two about what it contains, and unless we receive more enlightenment from the Government Front Bench upon its provisions and some promise that the Government will fall in with some of our suggestions, I am afraid that we shall have to press our protest to a Division. I have followed the Debates on this Clause from the beginning and I had the honour to move an Amendment to it on behalf of the Parliamentary Labour party. Of course, the Government would not accept our Amendment but I notice that the Amendment of the hon. Member for the English Universities (Sir R. Craddock) was accepted at once.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It was a good one.
    Mr. DAVIES: I have the impression that it was accepted not because of its goodness, but because it meant nothing.
    Sir H. CROFT: The Government are getting frightened.
    Mr. DAVIES: The Government are always ready to accept drafting Amendments, but as soon as we attempt to safeguard the interest of the working class of the Indian States they turn our Amendments down. If the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) were in his seat I would venture to tell him that I was a little surprised at the language which he employed on our Amendment. He said that the Secretary of State knew better than he did what was the best thing to do. If my mind were affected in that way, I would throw in the towel and join the Government. What is the good of being on this side if we say that those people on the other side know as

    1231
    well as we do? We say that they do not, and that we know better than they do. I say honestly and earnestly that we are a little disappointed with the reply of the Under-Secretary of State on our Amendment, and that the Government should have met the case.
    I should imagine, in spite of the protests to the contrary, that negotiations must be entered into between representatives of the Princes and the Secretary of State as to the list of subjects to be accepted before the Instrument of Accession is signed. If that be so, and it seems to me that it is bound to be so, would it not be possible for the Government, in response to a very important Amendment which we put forward on this Clause, to argue with the Princes that it would be a good thing if they accepted that Amendment? Surely there would be nothing wrong in trying to do that.
    I have often negotiated with employers of labour and other people, and I know that the first thing the employers say is, "We will have none of it." But, when we negotiate and argue, as we can on this side of the House, the employers are very often convinced that they are wrong and come a little nearer to our point of view. If the India Office would undertake to convey to the Princes the feeling of the House of Commons on the Amendment which we moved to-day, I should not be surprised if some headway were made with the Princes. I will quote the best of all arguments in favour of the Amendment which the Government have declined to accept, namely, what was said by the Joint Select Committee themselves. They did not deal exactly with this point, but paragraph 240 of their Report is a splendid prop in favour of the proposal which we put forward. This is what it says:
    "It is proposed in the White Paper that such subjects as Health Insurance and Invalid and Old Age Pensions should be subjects of Provincial legislation. We see serious objection to this, and consider that they should be included in the concurrent list."
    That is a step forward from the proposals of the White Paper—from the provincial list to the concurrent list. Our Amendment would carry it, not from the provincial list to the concurrent list, but so as to cover the whole of India both States and Provinces, with one set of labour laws. Let us see the strength of
    1232
    the argument in favour of what we propose. The Joint Select Committee went on to say:
    "While it is necessary that the more industrialised Provinces should be able to legislate on these subjects in the interests of the urban workers, and should not have to wait for the concurrence of those which are predominantly rural, it is undesirable to exclude the possibility of All-India legislation, which may well become necessary in order that there should be uniformity of treatment of the workers as between Province and Province, and that industry in one Province should not be burdened with obligations not imposed in another."
    The argument against imposing industrial and labour conditions in one Province as against those applying in another Province applies, in our view, exactly in the same way when you compare the States and the Provinces side by side. In spite of the hon. Gentleman's statement, may I ask whether it would not be possible still to try and plead with the Princes that they may do something to secure the end we have in view? The Government must take note of the Division that took place on our Amendment. If the Liberal party bad been good enough to vote with us, as I expected they would, we should have had on our Amendment the largest Opposition vote that the Government have experienced on this Bill. I am not going to try to explain the reason why hon. Gentlemen on the other side vote with us; it may be difficult to fathom the secret mind that moves them at times; but, anyway, I will take it for granted that they were genuinely in favour on this occasion of raising the standard of life of the working classes.
    Sir H. CROFT: I must ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the words "on this occasion." It was the real Conservatives who started the whole of the legislation for social reform in this country, through the various Acts that they carried.
    The CHAIRMAN: I must point out that all this is very far from the Question, "That the Clause stand part."
    Mr. DAVIES: I am afraid the Rules of Order will not allow me to reply to the hon. and gallant Gentleman. But I want to say very definitely that we on this side regarded that Amendment, the object of which was to bring the whole of the working classes of India, in both States and Provinces, up to a higher level from the point of view of industrial

    1233
    legislation, as fundamental, and, so far as we are concerned, we shall vote against this Clause because our Amendment has not been accepted. Although we may be defeated the Government have not heard the last of our proposals.
    9.2 p.m.
    Major COURTAULD: I want to say a word on the last point mentioned by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). I may say that I supported the Amendment for the same reason for which he supported it—a very obvious reason; and also for the further reason that, if we are going to have a federation in India at all, surely it would be better to have a real federation, without any reservations, than a make-believe federation, which, it appears to me, the Government are trying to bring about. We were told this afternoon by the Secretary of State that if the Amendment about which the hon. Member has been speaking were carried it would imperil the chances of an All-India Federation. I fail to respond to that argument in the least, because, if we are going to omit from the Federation things in which we all believe, what on earth is the good of having a federation at all?
    The CHAIRMAN: I must call the hon. and gallant Member's attention to the fact that we have passed the question of federation long ago, and that hot only does it not arise on the Amendment referred to, but it does not arise on the Clause that is now before the Committee.
    Major COURTAULD: I apologise. I will take it, then, that the question of federation as such does not arise on this Clause. I think that what does arise on the Clause is the accession of the Princes to federation, and I will endeavour to confine my brief remarks to that question. The reason why I am not in favour of this Clause standing part of the Bill is that I do not think the Princes wish to accede to federation. I have never thought that the great majority of the Princes wished for federation, and that is confirmed by the events which occurred on Monday last, and by a certain amplification of that news which one has heard to-day. I have never thought that the Princes as a body wished to accede, by these proposed Instruments of Accession, to a federation. If I may give my reasons—
    The CHAIRMAN: No. The hon. and gallant Member is now about to deal with a matter which was the subject of a four-hours debate on the Motion to report Progress yesterday, and before and afterwards of several hours debate on Clause 5. That cannot be repeated now.
    Sir H. CROFT: It is competent, I presume, for Members to deal with any points raised by the various Amendments on the Clause.
    Major COURTAULD: I am sorry that I have been transgressing. As regards the Instrument of Accession, I consider that the Princes will not be ready to accept it as laid down in the various points which they have to accede to before they can enter this Federation. I am convinced that the Clause, if included, will not be eventually of any use to us, because, if the Princes refuse to sign the Instrument of Accession, the Clause will mean nothing at all. If I am debarred from giving my reasons for thinking that the Princes will not agree to the Instrument of Accession, I find it rather hard to argue my point. In view of the events of which we were informed yesterday and in view of certain information which has arrived since, to include this Clause in the Bill would be of no use whatever to us. It will be found at a later date that we have been wasting our time. For that reason, I shall oppose the Clause.
    9.7 p.m.
    Major NATHAN: I desire to ask a question which you, Sir, indicated last evening would be more properly raised now. The point arises on Sub-section (3) of this Clause, which provides that the Instrument of Accession is to be signed by the ruler himself and that, for every purpose except the signing of making of an Instrument of Accession, the term "ruler of a State" includes reference to any persons for the time being exercising the powers of the ruler of the State, whether by reason of the ruler's minority or for any other reason. The question I wish to ask is this. What is the position in the case of a State where the ruler is in fact a minor or is otherwise under disability and, therefore, not fully competent to make an Instrument of Accession. Suppose the ruler of a State were an infant of 12 months. Is it to be understood that until he had attained his majority it would

    1235
    be impossible, however anxious the State might be, to be the subject of an Instrument of Accession? Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will make some reference to that point, which though technical is not without its importance.
    9.9 p.m.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: I am quite ready to believe that my hon. Friend who spoke a few moments ago was right in saying that we are wasting our time in discussing this Clause. Still, it is before us, and I should like to say with what concern I heard the Under-Secretary say that the only list which was the subject of negotiation for an Instrument of Accession with the Princes was the federal list. I feel that the concurrent list, especially Part II, contains a, subject of very great importance to the welfare and general well-being of India. I did not speak on the Amendment moved from the Front Bench opposite, but I only refrained from doing so in the hope that I might have a better chance of speaking on the Clause and bringing up many other matters which I regard as of great importance in that list, matters to which their Amendment did not refer. But I have full sympathy with that Amendment and I should like to confirm the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) that factories are actually moving from British India into some of the Indian States, I believe partly to get away from possible disturbing political elements, but also partly, as I have heard, because, though none of us think the standard of factory legislation in British India high, still it is higher than it is in the States. I feel very strongly that workers in British India may suffer seriously in employment if there is no provision for any uniformity, in labour legislation or social insurance, which may possibly in future be introduced, for India as a whole. But at least this can be said, that the matters referred to in the Opposition Amendment were matters made by man. The first matter that I would refer to is that of health. Provision 29 in Part II of the concurrent list—
    The CHAIRMAN: It is quite obvious that it will be open to discuss that when we come to the Schedule which contains the concurrent list, and obviously it will
    1236
    be a much more convenient place. I do not think I could possibly allow a discussion here.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: We spent some time this afternoon discussing other matters in that concurrent list on the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies).
    The CHAIRMAN: The Noble Lady will forgive me for saying in the first place that, if I made a mistake once, it does not justify me in doing so again. As a matter of fact, I think I am right in saying that I stopped that discussion once before. There were certain subjects specially dealt with in the Amendment and reference was made, no doubt, to others as bearing thereon, but the discussion of a, matter which is included in the concurrent list certainly cannot be properly included in the discussion of this Clause. I think the Noble Lady will understand what I mean when I say, if it is to be discussed here, what are we to do when we come to the Schedule? We cannot discuss it all over again.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: I must say, Sir, that I am very much taken aback by your Ruling. We debated the Amendment of the hon. Member for Westhoughton for some hours. I think it was you who selected it. I do not remember that anyone was stopped. If that Amendment could be discussed, I am unable to see why other elements in the same list cannot be discussed.
    The CHAIRMAN: For the simple reason that they are other elements not in the Amendment, but in the list, which we have not yet arrived at.
    9.15 p.m.
    Sir H. CROFT: I rise for a few moments only to call the attention of the Committee to the extraordinary discussion we have had on this Clause. This amazing federal system we are setting up, I think, must be getting more and more interesting to everybody present. We have had Amendments discussing some of the many sides of the question which we are to have before us later on. First of all, we are now all aware of the fact that, here you have this Federation with British subjects as to some three-quarters of the Federation and non-British subjects for the other quarter. We have, therefore, this extraordinary situation of

    1237
    different subjects under one scheme. My hon. Friend sitting next to me says that does not matter because, after all, there is a precedent. There is 'a little spot in Kenya where natives of Zanzibar still dwell, but really that is not a precedent for this vast reform where 6,000,000 people in Indian States are to come into federation, where they are not British subjects, and where they have so little in common, and actually will have so little equality of duty within that federation.
    We come to the question which was raised by hon. Gentlemen on the benches above the Gangway of the various social matters referred to specifically in their Amendments, and we learn that there is to be one set of social conditions in British India and quite a different set of social conditions in the States. I interrupted the right hon. Gentleman who seemed to think that that matter was one which was solely within the prejudiced scope of the Socialist party. I reminded him that it was the real Conservatives of this country—who will be asserting themselves again in the near future, I hope—who were responsible for all the great social measures which were first brought into this country, while the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors were so busy with laissez faire in those days. It is interesting to see that the Liberal party contemplate with equanimity a future under which there is to be the highest possible form of social legislation in what was British India under the Federation, and alongside there are to be allowed conditions which some of them in the past have regarded as quite intolerable. Then there is to be the amazing situation that three-quarters of the inhabitaants are to be subject to Income Tax and the other quarter escape it. What a, wonderful country. I think some of the over-burdened taxpayers of some of these Western countries will desire to live in Indian States in future, where they will be free from burdens of the description they have found rather hard to bear in this old world.
    We have this extraordinary situation. We have been discussing this Clause at the very moment when this whole question of the Princes' accession has been brought before the Chamber of Princes, where the Princes, over 100 of them, I understand, have in the most emphatic language explained how many difficulties
    1238
    there are in the Instrument of Accession to which they are to be subjected. I think it will be quite clear to Members of the Committee that it is on the very points we are discussing in this Clause that the Secretary of State will have to introduce all these Amendments. Therefore, it may be that we may have to discuss the whole question over again. The Bill may have to be recommitted. I do not want to spoil for Members the news in to-morrow morning's papers, but I think when they read the verbatim speeches of what happened in the Chamber of Princes they are likely to see that these fundamental differences in regard to the Instrument of Accession cannot be swept aside as easily as is suggested and cannot be met in other directions. They are really fundamental points.
    For that reason, I think that the Government made a mistake in proceeding with Clause 6 at all this evening. It would have been far wiser to have ascertained from India the real fundamental objections of the Princes, and have seen if they could meet them on the question of the Instrument of Accession. Had those difficulties not been insurmountable, it surely would have been a wise course to put off the discussion at least a fortnight. I think we have a real reason to complain that the Government have insisted on forcing the consideration of the Clause before this Committee under these conditions, and that hon. Gentlemen who sit on the Opposition benches, although they may feel keenly on one side of this question, cannot feel so keenly as we do in the way the Committee has been forced to press on with the question. We really do not know for what we are voting to-day, because we have not the smallest conception of what the Princes are going to demand as a sine qua non and as reservations before the Bill can be finally established.
    9.21 p.m.
    Sir CHARLES OMAN: The idea of federation is a 19th century and a 20th century delusion which has been founded upon an insufficient number of instances. We have heard a great deal about Canada, South Africa, Australia and so forth, but we have not heard about the numerous rolls of confederacies and federations all down history which did not come off and have ceased, and were

    1239
    incompatible and came to an evil end. The idea that the incompatible can be federated, because you call them federation is really a philosophic conception of the 19th century, and about as out-of-date, now as was the idea of "progress" which was taught us by 19th century economists and philosophers. When I say that I doubt the thing "progress," I ask hon. Gentlemen to look at the ruins of the Maya cities of Yucatan, or the excavations at Ur of the Chaldees, and ask themselves whether that represents progress—and whether in the general world progress is the ruling thing to-day or whether it is not really as dead a slogan as Free Trade. As Gibbon taught in the 18th century, or as Orosius taught in the fifth century, history is a cataclystic thing, where states and confederacies, monarchies and empires go up and go down—"decline and fall."
    The events of the last few years have entirely upset the old theories of evolutionary constitutional history, and the theory that all human effort is towards progress. One has only to look round at what might be said to be the general effect of Europe at present. Has it recently advanced towards constitutional progress in due evolution? Can it be said, looking at the inner conditions of most countries, that progress is the main feature to be observed. No, cataclysms are what happen in history. History throws up its Julius Caesars, its Napoleons, its Hitlers and its Mussolinis, and they are quite incompatible with all ideas of proper evolution. I hear much talk that federation has become inevitable. This seems to me one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Change and upheaval are the things observable. As Herodotus once very wisely observed "Any thing may happen in a long space of time." As to the political prophecies of which we have heard so much in this Debate, Prophecy, as a shrewd thinker once observed, is the most futile employment of the human intellect. To say that a thing is necessary and to prophesy that it is inevitable is to take us back to the days of the Old Testament when Zedekiah, the son of Chenaanah and Micaiah, the son of Imlah, prophesied at each other in optimistic and pessimistic contradiction.
    A very great leader promised us in a speech I well remember that within a
    1240
    short period we should lose India if we did not pass this Bill. A very great ex-Governor of the Punjab told me that if we passed this Bill we should lose India within 10 years. Both of them from their experience ought to know something. I regard them, however, as like the prophets who prophesied before Ahab. I merely look at the present and the past. I would like to call the attention of the House to the melancholy record of federations in the past.
    The CHAIRMAN: I really was inclined to interfere with the hon. Member during the beginning of his speech, but I lived in hope. I must remind him that we are not on Clause 5, but Clause 6, which deals merely with the question of accession.
    Sir C. OMAN: I will not talk then about the Hanseatic League or the ancient leagues of Greece, in deference to your Ruling, but merely say that you really cannot federate the unfederatable. All the cases quoted as justification for federation should be remembered with the fact that they were concerned with different branches of European people, like the French and the English in Canada and the English and the Dutch in South Africa. It is difficult, if not impossible, to federate in India two bodies of people, when one of them believes in the spiritual necessity for the sacrifice of cattle at fixed services in the year, while the other believes that the killing of cattle is a sin against the Diety to be suppressed by the force of lawlessness. Anyone who knows anything about this question knows that the regular start for a communal riot in India is an accusation by Hindus that the usual cattle killing by Moslems is about to begin. When faced with religions, one of which regards as blasphemy what the other regards as a necessary religious service, while both will proceed to bloodshed in defence of their theories, it seems to me extremely difficult even to think they should be federable.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the hon. Member has forgotten the point on which I interrupted him. I said that we were proceeding with questions having reference to Instruments of Accession of the States.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: On a point of Order. I gather from your Ruling that

    1241
    we are confined to the Instruments of Accession, but that, of course, comprises the consequences of accession?
    The CHAIRMAN: I have listened to the right hon. Gentleman so often that I would prefer to rule in my own words than adopt his. We must not repeat the Debate we have already had on Clause 5.
    Sir C. OMAN: If it is the federating of Princes you want, you shall have them. The most notable of such federations was the Holy Roman Empire.
    The CHAIRMAN: I have before me the speech the hon. Member made on that the other night, and he cannot repeat it.
    Sir C. OMAN: May I quote then Switzerland? There is the case of the Abbots of St. Gall and the Counts of Neuchatel who were Princes federated among the urban and rural cantons of that Federacy. I do not think what has happened to those rulers makes a happy prospect for any Maharaja to contemplate. The old princely States are now mere cantons—the Princes have vanished. The main thing I wanted to bring forward is that without going too far into ancient history, you find that the incompatible cannot be federated.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid that is almost word for word what the hon. Member has said before. I must ask him to resume his seat.
    9.31 p.m.
    Mr. TINKER: I would like to make a suggestion before the Under-Secretary replies. When the Princes are interviewed on this and other matters would it be possible for them to be asked if they would accept the several points brought forward in our Amendments—mining legislation, for instance, making it general? In this way if a legislature decided on certain conditions in mines, the whole of the Princes might accept them. Another point is that of workmen's compensation. If the legislature decides on that, certain of the rulers could get away from it in their States, and that would be entirely contrary to fair-play for all concerned. Workmen's compensation whenever adopted must be applicable to all. If only part of the people had to pay, one can realise what a burden it would be for those who have
    1242
    to meet it. In questions of workmen's compensation, mining legislation or factory legislation, no headway could be made if certain employers or rulers could get away from it. When the Under-Secretary does meet them he might put it to them that certain social conditions ought to be applicable to all. Cannot he get agreement on these points? If he could, Members on these benches would have great satisfaction in having made some headway for the workers in India.
    9.34 p.m.
    Mr. BUTLER: I am sure that the Committee was interested to hear repeated some of the arguments which have been heard previously, in view of the great importance of this Clause. I do not propose to traverse exactly the same arguments put to the Committee on an earlier occasion. I shall try to answer one or two points on the Motion "That the Clause stand part." The hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman) has a different conception of history from that on which I was brought up. Perhaps that is because I had the proud privilege of belonging to the opposite university to his, mine being Cambridge. At that university we had a history book called "The Idea of Progress," and on that very fine work I was brought up. My hon. Friend has a different conception of history from that which I have been led to believe in. I, like my right hon. Friend, have had the privilege of reading his books. I read his Life of Julius Caesar, and the Life of Lycurgus, the dictator of Sparta, and the thing that I remember is that he fell and collapsed and like all the great dictators of the world passed away. So with the evanescence of political institutions. Whether they be federations or whether they be
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Anything else.
    Mr. BUTLER: Or, as my right hon. Friend says, whether they be anything else, they have all passed away. So, in a phrase which has been quoted often in these Debates, let us pass on with this Bill. The hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) raised again the very sincere objections which he had to my inability on the last occasion that I spoke on this point to accept the Amendment which he moved, and he asked us to argue once more with the Princes to accept this Amendment. We have had

    1243
    the privilege of sitting with the Princes for over four years since they first took part in the Round Table Conference, and later when their representatives attended our deliberations on the Joint Select Committee, and it was on that account that when I previously addressed the Committee on this subject I gave them the conclusion of the Joint Select Committee on the question of the Princes' accession to questions in the concurrent list. Let me remind the Committee of what the Joint Select Committee said:
    "We understand that the States, who are free agents in this respect, are likely in the first instance to take their stand upon the Federal List proper and to accept the jurisdiction of the Federal Legislature in nothing which is outside the boundaries of that list; but we hope that in course of time they may be willing to extend their accessions at least to certain items, such as bankruptcy and insolvency, in the concurrent list."
    That is in paragraph 236. The Joint Select Committee had the privilege of discussing this particular matter with the Indian States and it is due to many of those discussions with the Indian States that we have not been able to go further on this subject. There has been a certain amount of criticism of us when we have said that if we accepted this Amendment it would make federation impossible. The fact is that we have considered that the federal form, for reasons which have been given to the House on ninny occasions, is the best form of nexus to preserve the unity of India, which the British have attempted to give to India. We are trying to make the best form of Federation that we can in the circumstances, but our friends of the Indian States have informed us that they are not willing to the extent required in this Amendment to allow interference with the internal administration of such questions as these in the States.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: To what Amendment does the hon. Member refer?
    Mr. BUTLER: To the Amendment referred to by my hon. Friends opposite, in regard to which they wished me again to traverse the same ground that we have covered previously. If the Indian States, as the Joint Select Committee expressed the hope that they may be willing to do, extend their accessions to certain subjects in the concurrent list, it would be a case of acceding in the first place to the legislative power, and I do not see any hope
    1244
    of their transferring the administration in relation to these subjects within the borders of their own States.
    The hon. and gallant Member for Bethnal Green, North-East (Major Nathan) raised a question arising out of Sub-section (3), to which my right hon. Friend has already answered in the negative, namely, that 'a minor cannot accede to Federation. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) raised various points and repeated some arguments which he had raised earlier. He raised the question of discrepancy in regard to matters of taxation, which were dealt with in an Amendment previously moved on that subject. The hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) asked whether we could accept the question of mining, but I am afraid that that is included together with the factories under the same heading in the Concurrent List, and the same consideration, unfortunately, applies to it. The hon. and gallant Member for Chichester (Major Courtauld) and the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth raised the point as to whether it was worth considering this Clause at all. As I said at the opening of my remarks, I believe in progress. I need not repeat the many arguments that were used by my right hon. Friend yesterday, but I would draw the attention of the Committee to them. Believing in progress and having done my best to deal with some of the points that have been raised, I hope that we may now proceed to a Vote on the Clause.
    Major NATHAN: May I point out that the hon. Member did not answer the question which I put to him? The question was not whether a minor could execute an Instrument of Accession. It is clear that he cannot do so, and I understand that the Secretary of State has so advised the Committee. My question was this—What is the position of a State as regards joining the Federation if the Ruler is a minor. Is it necessary for that State to await the time when the Ruler who is a minor attains his majority, however many years may elapse?
    Mr. BUTLER: The answer to the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question is "Yes."
    9.42 p.m.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: We have now reached the conclusion of this Debate on the Question, "That Clause 6 stand part," and I venture to think that there is hardly any other question more momentous than the one with which we have to deal now. Here is the crux of the Debate. We have considered many Amendments, and we have now reached the point where the main issues are clearly before the Committee, and we are entitled to review them, seeing that the, Committee have to take a decision of such consequence. This Clause deals with, as the Chairman has pointed out on several occasions, the accession of the Princes. Without the accession of the Princes there can be no All-India Federation, and without an All-India Federation we are assured, though I do not myself adopt that view, that there can be no hope for the present Government of India Bill. Therefore we are absolutely at the cardinal point of our discussion. The Government attitude throughout has been that it would be of the very greatest advantage to the Princes if they accede to the Federation.
    The right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), and others who have been enlisted in the Government scheme of very effective orators, through their association with the Joint Select Committee, has expressed on his high authority the view that it would be greatly to the advantage of the Princes if they were to sign the Instrument of Accession. That is the position of the Government. The Princes are, by association with an All-India Federation, to gain great facilities and great improvements in their customs arrangements and so forth, and in joining in general matters of interest for the great sub-Continent of India. 'hat is the position of the Government, their official and public position, but when one has a Debate such as we have had to-day one sees how very thin and threadbare that kind of argument is, what a bold bluff it is, what a sinking there is, what a hollow feeling there is behind all the confident asseverations of the advantage to the Princes, the great demand of the Princes, the surging of these princely figures towards the portals of All-India Federation.
    In spite of this tremendous tendency to federation, this irresistible demand
    1246
    for federation, on the part of the Princes, the Secretary of State, with his liberal and humanitarian sentiments, has not dared to speak a word for the poor millions of India; he has not dared to say one word on their behalf. So near, so narrow, is the margin that he has not dared to say to any of these Princes, not even to the most enlightened of them whose labour conditions are better than those which prevail in British India, "Surely, in your Instrument of Accession you will agree to uniform laws for labour and social and health conditions." He would not dare to do it. The sense of advantages which the Princes have is not strong enough to bear the weight of that demand, and the Secretary of State, intent upon the political aspects of the great design which he has carried so far and fought for so valiantly and bodly, which he has lost himself in, absorbed himself in, has brushed aside all considerations affecting the well-being of the masses of India, who are regarded as pawns in this great game of empire unbuilding. His Majesty's Government do not dare to ask that any steps shall be taken in the Federation to secure decent conditions for the masses of the Indian people. That is an important point. One of the lines of the attack we make on this Bill, not only now but which we shall make as long as it is in any way presented as an issue in our public life, is that the interests of the masses of the people of India have been totally ignored.
    The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) made a speech which I am bound to say did more credit to his fidelity to the engagements and associations into which he has entered than to the interests of working democracy. It was the sort of speech of a very old Liberal school. As long as they could preach liberty they cared little what were the conditions of the poorer people. But I must not allow myself to be drawn outside the scope of the discussion, and I think I rather caught your eye, Mr. Chairman, as though you were, shall I say, on the pounce. Therefore, I will not press my advantage against the hon. Member for Bodmin any further at the moment. I say clearly that the Government do not believe that this will be to the advantage of the Princes, or that the Princes have that idea, because they dare not ask us to insert the provisions.

    1247
    Indeed, the position of the Princes will be most poignant. I said so in the Debate on the Second Reading, and to-day we have had full confirmation of the fact. I did not know at the time of the Second Reading Debate that the Instrument of Accession would be interpreted to cover the very wide series of subjects, 45 topics, of which the great majority are obligatory. Then there is the expectancy that the voluntary list shall also be acceded to by the Princes.
    I did not know, I was surprised like the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps), that all matters of the internal government of the States would be debatable on every occasion, on almost every pretext upon which you can hang a Parliamentary Debate. As hon. Members know a discussion may be raised on one point and at almost any distance from that point; but little did I realise that this would be possible by direct debate. I thought that by a side wind they would be able to call the Princes over the coals in regard to questions about internal administration, but only by a side wind. To-day the Secretary of State, speaking with great clearness, explained that in all matters of labour legislation and so on the Ministers will be advising the Viceroy and the Assembly will be influencing Ministers, although there is no direct surrender on the part of the States. It is clear that the whole of the affairs of these independent States will be debatable from day to day on the floor of the Indian Assembly. If we tried to debate the affairs of the Irish Free State in this House, I think we should be pulled up. I thought it would be only a limited debate which would prevail in the Federal Legislature as against the States. Not at all. It is -clear that all these matters can be debated. It illustrates the poignant position, the terrible position, of the Indian Princes.
    What are they expected to do when they sign the Act of Accession? That is the core of our discussion. They are expected to be the stabilising influence in the Assembly. They are expected to be the conservative and loyal influence. If they move in that direction, and in so far as they do move, they will excite the animosity of those who hate our rule and who hate law and order in every
    1248
    form. They will be attacked first of all in their States, where disorders will be raised by agitators. They will be attacked in the Central Assembly, where the Secretary of State assures us there will be limitless opportunities for calling in question and debating every one of their actions. In the third place, these matters undoubtedly will have their repercussions over here. When a Prince has stood out for the Imperial -connection and gained unpopularity in India, has been attacked in his own State where agitation has been fomented against him, he may easily find people who will criticise him again over here. A horrible position for the Princes to be placed in. Is it to their advantage? I do not wonder that the Government dare not put another straw on the camel's back and. ask them to agree to decent conditions for the labouring people. The ice is far too thin for that.
    But what is their actual view? What has astonished me more than anything else in the course of these discussions, through which we shall arrive at a true conviction of the issues in this enormous Bill, is that the Secretary of State, whose ability is so obvious, whose industry is so praiseworthy, who is so saturated with his subject and whose courage and qualities as administrator and parliamentarian are nowhere more readily admitted than by those who are fighting him in this matter, has not been able, as well as many of those who are acting with him, to understand the simple dynamics of the Indian situation. Why is it that the Princes are now boggling at the Act of Accession? Why are they now rising in such hostility and wrath against it, when you thought you had them all so tame and friendly? Why is it? The right hon. Gentleman said he was surprised. I am not surprised at all, and my friends are not surprised, not because of special information which reached us, but because it is quite clear to anyone who has followed this thing what are the dynamics and the articulations of the Indian situation.
    You have a different situation from that of 1930. You are four years removed from then; this is 1935. In 1930 the Indian Princes had an invitation from the advanced political forces of British India to join them in a Federation, which it was believed, in the bad days of the

    1249
    Irwin-Benn regime of 1930, would have speedily led on to their practically taking over the goodwill of the whole business of British Government in India, lock, stock and barrel. But things have changed since then. They have changed from another cause. They have changed because of the right hon. Gentleman's firm administration and the much improved administration of Lord Willingdon compared with the previous regime, and also because some other people have put up a fight all the time to keep a strong resisting force operative; and now the Princes are not so willing to adopt this instrument of Accession. Why? Whereas they were invited by the political forces in British India in 1930 and 1931, there is no invitation to-day. The invitation is withdrawn; the political forces are not saying to the Princes, "Come on and share this Government of Federal India." They say, "No. Stand out of this. Do not you associate yourselves with this scheme, which we have repudiated. If you do, it will not be comradeship we shall give you. On the contrary we shall pay you out by all the means which this Bill will give us the power to pay you."
    That is the explanation of the Princes' change. What is the good of pretending to be surprised at it? It is the working of remorseless laws, and I am astounded that the Government have not seen that that would be the reaction which would occur as a result. of these four years, and of the continued process of change which has governed their own course during that time. What is the present view of the Princes? My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State read this afternoon a telegram which he had received from Reuter's Agency in Bombay. I must say that if it had been an official telegram I should have given it equal credence—yes, equal credence. But we have now in our possession statements made by the leading personages upon this very question of Clause 6 and the act of accession. What. is so remarkable is that it is the very men on whom the right hon. Gentleman has been relying who are now most vehement against the Bill—the Maharaja of Bhopal, the Maharaja of Bikaner, Sir Akbar Hydari and Sir C. P. Ramaswami Ayyar. These are the Ministers and Princes who are most concerned in this matter, who are most in touch with the intelligentsia in British India, the Indian intel
    1250
    ligentsia. They are the very ones who have most denounced this Measure. That is a great fact. You may vote them down: you may vote us down; you may call your 200 gentlemen from the Lobbies and the smoking-rooms and Library and vote us down, good and plenty. Yes, that is what happens. You may do that, but nothing can alter the facts or the march of events. There is the point. The Maharaja of Bhopal said:
    "The present scheme as put forward before us in the shape of the Government of India Bill and the draft Instrument of Accession, falls far short of many of our vital demands, and in regard to certain matters ignores agreements reached with His Majesty's government in London."
    And then Sir Akbar Hydari, the able Minister, said two days ago:
    HON. MEMBERS: It has all been published.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, but there is no reason why the House of Commons should not hear the facts. He said:
    "These are matters to which we attach vital importance, and I really, for one, cannot understand why Section 6 (1, a) has been allowed to be provided in all its brutal absoluteness."
    I do not say whether that is right or wrong. I am not associating myself with the statement. But this is not our man. He is the Government's own man, and he is surprised that the Government have inserted Clause 6 in the Bill "in all its brutal absoluteness." It does not sound very much like mere trouble about drafting Amendments, a little difference here or there or some small matter of adjustment. It is most extraordinary. The quotation goes on:
    "We cannot accept the entire Act as it has been enacted by Parliament. We have always protested against any acceptance of that kind. We have always held that we will be parties to a federation with regard to specific things and specific provisions. Here we are first asked to accept the entire Act, and then we are allowed to make reservations, not with regard to sections of it, but with regard to one particular Schedule of it, and in regard to all other matters we are asked to accept the Act. I think we have all unanimously agreed that this is a position which under no circumstances whatever we shall be prepared to accept."
    Then Sir C. P. Ramaswami Ayyar said:
    "I appeal with all the force at my command that this Clause 6 is a dangerous innovation"—

    1251
    What a comment on the brutal ease of a majority to violate the decent sequence of Parliamentary procedure when here at this moment you are going to vote on this Clause and carry it, no doubt with the usual 200 gentlemen. I hope they will long be. Here you are, and at this moment you do not know what are the opinions of the people on whose agreement you depend for the existence of your Bill. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham took a very strong line the other day and said: "We will take our path as the British Parliament and not pay any attention to these opinions." What nonsense, when you have said that the accession of the Princes is vital to your. scheme. How can you stride off and say that you care nothing for all this? But if you are doing your duty and they do not agree, the result is that all that is done will be ploughing the sands, a wasting of the time of Parliament. Sir P. Ramaswami Ayyar said:
    "I appeal with all the force at my command that Clause 6 is a dangerous innovation. It marks the culmination of a process which began in 1930. From then down to 1934 it has been a progressive inclined plane and we are now at the bottom of the plane. This Clause is full of dangers, and I ask Your Highnesses with all the force at my command not only to disclaim Clause 6, but the spirit underlying this Clause."
    Ought we not to know that before we vote upon the Clause? Are we not right to tell this to the House? Is it not relevant to the Debate and to the decision that we have to take? The quotation continues:
    "It is fraught with the utmost mischief. I am deliberately and firmly of the opinion that those features to which the Committee of Ministers has drawn attention are fundamental and vital, and unless there is a change in the spirit with which the Act is going to be dealt with hereafter, it would be a thousand pities if your Highnesses should join in a compact of which you know not the end."
    There are many more opinions of that kind. We are a small minority here, even though, on questions affecting the well-being of the masses of the Indian people, we have associates to whom in other matters we are bitterly opposed. But we are a small minority. You can mock at us because in the Division Lobby we can only produce 50 or 60 Members against hundreds brought up by the Whip and waiting to fall in when the moment comes. We know that. But this
    1252
    is not going to be fought out by numbers. From the very beginning I have been sure that it is not going to be fought out by numbers. It is going to be fought out by the force of events, and by the decisions which are taken in the minds of men outside this House and by the effect which is produced upon the spirit and determination of the Conservative party. There is what we rely upon in our resistance, and never did I feel more hopeful than I do to-night.
    The Attorney-General mocked me—mocked us—the other day. He said: "We see your game." Our game! I suppose for Members of Parliament to devote years of time to this subject and to sacrifice many friendships and, in the case of some of the younger men, their political careers, in order to fight for this issue—that we are told is a game. But for the Attorney-General to take any brief which is offered to him—that is professional business. We have done the best in our power, and it seems to me that we are entitled to-night to ask the Committee not to pass this Clause in view of the vital decisions which depend upon it, and in view of the fact that we do not know any of the essential points upon which our decision ought to rest. The right hon. Gentleman has conducted his case so far with the very greatest skill and the very greatest courage. I am bound to say that I admire his performance in everything except its direction—its objective. But I think he would add greatly to his reputation if he said that in view of the facts placed before him now he did not think that it would be fair to ask the Committee to-night to come to the decision of placing this Clause among the approved Clauses of the Bill.
    10.9 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I am afraid that I must risk my reputation in the mind of my right hon. Friend and refuse to accede to the invitation which he has just addressed to me. Nor do I intend to make once again the speech which I delivered to the Committee yesterday afternoon. Unlike my right hon. Friend, I prefer not to go on saying the same thing time after time. My right hon. Friend has, time after time, arrogated to himself and to those who are working with him, an exclusive interest in the Indian masses. Let me say here and now that I dispute that claim. Our attitude

    1253
    over this Clause and the Amendment upon which we voted earlier, has no bearing whatever upon charges of the kind which he has hurled at us more than once to-day. We have as much interest in the future of the masses both in British India and in the Indian States as any hon. Members in this House.
    Further, my right hon. Friend misrepresented—I' am sure quite unintentionally—what I said about the rights of the Indian Legislature to criticise the internal affairs of the Indian States. No doubt he was drawn on by the desire—very natural to him and those who think with him, and who are most anxious by any means to destroy the hope of an All-India Federation—to make an All-India Federation appear as dangerous and as unattractive as he possibly could to any Indian Prince and to the Minister of any Indian State. It was evidently his desire to make it appear that the Princes were incurring the greatest possible danger in entering an All-India Federation and that the Federal Executive and the Federal Legislature would be constantly criticising the internal affairs of the Indian States. That is expressly excluded under Clause 38 of the Bill. Criticisms can only be made upon the actual subjects which the States themselves have voluntarily surrendered to the Federal Legislature. Any question of further criticism of the internal affairs of the Indian States is expressly excluded under this Clause, May I suggest to my right hon. Friend that before he makes again any criticism of that kind ha should study in greater detail the provisions of the Bill.
    Viscount WOLMER: The right hon. Gentleman says that such criticism is prohibited by Clause 38, but that Clause simply says that the Governor-General shall in his discretion after consultation with the President or Speaker, as the case may be, make rules for prohibiting such discussion. That is a very different thing.
    Sir S. HOARE: I do not think it is. Anyhow, it is our definite intention that discussions of that kind should be excluded.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: There are the 45 points?
    Sir S. HOARE: Exactly what I said. If my right hon. Friend will examine
    1254
    the Bill in regard to the 45 points and the Federal list he will see that that is a very different thing. My right hon. Friend really has not studied the Bill and that is the trouble with so many of his criticisms. When we come to Clause as we can discuss these provisions in greater detail. Let me say to the Committee here and now and particularly to the Indian Princes, that they should not assume that criticisms such as that to which we have just listened, have any foundation whatever. Next my right hon. Friend said that changes had taken place since 1931 when the Princes first made their offer. Many changes have taken place and I would say that the greatest change has taken place as the result of the long and meticulous inquiry of the Joint Select Committee. That Committee were carefully into all these questions connected with Federation and acceptance by the Princes, and by an overwhelming majority they came to the decision set out in the provisions of the Bill. That seems to me to be a very significant change since 1931 and it goes to show that after the fullest possible investigation in the last two or three years, subsequent events, so far from having undermined the offer that was made in 1931 have confirmed the wisdom of that offer.
    Lastly, my right hon. Friend has read out a number of extracts from speeches that appear to have been made in the last 24 hours in Bombay. I have not seen as yet a detailed description of those Debates, and I note with interest the speed with which my right hon. Friend receives information of this kind.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: May I say that it is a criticism against the right hon. Gentlement that he is not equally well informed?
    Sir S. HOARE: I cannot help thinking my right hon. Friend and his friends have known a good deal about the kind of pressure of which he often accuses me, the kind of pressure that obviously has been put in many directions from here upon some of the Princes who might presumably be critical or sceptical about federation.
    Sir H. CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman be specific in making that charge?
    Sir S. HOARE: I made a general charge, and I am prepared to-night to

    1255
    stand in every respect in the position that I took up yesterday. I believe, myself, that the description that I gave yesterday of the present state of affairs As far as the Princes are concerned is an accurate one, and I believe that I shall be proved to be right and that my right hon. Friend's pessimistic prophecies about the future will prove to be wrong. For the moment we must wait and see, he confident that, as a result of the attacks that he and his friends have made upon federation And the influence which they have no doubt brought to bear on the critics of federation in India, his prophecies are going to prove to be true—I, on the other hand, taking the view, and taking it quite definitely, that the
    differences at issue between us are not differences that need permanently divide us, but differences that can definitely be settled. Holding, as I do, the view that there is every possible advantage to this country, to India, to the Empire, and to the Princes themselves in an all-India Federation, I ask the Committee not to be drawn aside by the kind of speech to which we have just listened from the right hon. Gentleman, but to maintain the attitude that it took up yesterday afternoon and to carry this Clause by an overwhelming majority.
    Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided; Ayes, 211; Noes, 74.

    Division No. 65.]

    AYES.

    [10.17 p.m.

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds,W.)

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Ainsworth, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

    Eady, George H.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

    Apsley, Lord

    Eimley, Viscount

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

    Assheton, Ralph

    Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

    Liewellin, Major John J.

    Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Loder, Captain J. de Vera

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Mabane, William

    Balniel, Lord

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kersey

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Bateman, A. L.

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B, (Portsm'th.C.)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Beit, Sir Alfred L.

    Gluckstein, Louis Halls

    McKle, John Hamilton

    Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

    Goff, Sir Park

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Bossom, A. C.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Boulton, w. W.

    Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

    Magnay, Thomas

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Grigg, Sir Edward

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F, E.

    Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Buchan, John

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hamilton, Sir George (llford)

    Milne, Charles

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Hamilton, Sir R.W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Mitchell, Harold p.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Cadogan, Hon, Edward

    Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B, Eyres

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Harvey, Major Sir Samuel (Totnes)

    Morris, John Patrick (Salford. N.)

    Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Cheimsford)

    Morrison, William Shepherd

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Munro, Patrick

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Hornby, Frank

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    North, Edward T.

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Howard, Tom Forrest

    O'Connor, Terence James

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    O'Donovan. Dr. William James

    Copeland, Ida

    Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romford)

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Jennings, Roland

    Peake, Osbert

    Crossley, A. C.

    Jesson, Major Thomas E.

    Pearson, William G.

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

    Peat, Charles U.

    Culverwell, Cyril Tom

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Curry, A. C.

    Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Ker, J, Campbell

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Radford, E. A.

    Dickie, John P.

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Drummond-Wolff, H. M. C.

    Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

    Ramsay. T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Leckie, J. A.

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Shute, Colonel Sir John

    Tree, Ronald

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Rickards, George William

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Rothschild, James A, de

    Soper, Richard

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Ruggies-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield,B'tside)

    Spens, William Patrick

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W' morland)

    Windsor-Cilve. Lieut.-Colonel George

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Stevenson, James

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Storey, Samuel

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKonzie (Banff)

    Salmon, Sir Isidore

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

    Salt, Edward W.

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Sir George Penny and Lieut.-

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.

    Shaw, Helen B, (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Thompson, Sir Luke

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Donner, P. W.

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Edwards, Charles

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Balley, Eric Alfred George

    Futler, Captain A. G.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Banfield, John William

    Greene, William P. C.

    Sandeman, Sir A. N, Stewart

    Batey, Joseph

    Granted, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Scone, Lord

    Bracken, Brendan

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A.(P'dd'gt'n, S.)

    Buchanan, George

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Burnett, John George

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cape, Thomas

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Churchill, Rt. Hon, Winston Spencer

    Lawson, John James

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Cleary, J. J.

    Lees-Jones, John

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T,

    West, F. R.

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Levy, Thomas

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Daggar, George

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Milner, Major James

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Nail, Sir Joseph

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Dixey, Arthur C. N.

    Nunn, William

    Mr. John and Mr. Paling

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 7.—(Functions of Governor General.)
    Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    10.27 p.m.
    Viscount WOLMER: I rise only to ask the Government a question on the first Sub-section, which appears to raise a rather important point. It says:
    "Subject to the provisions of this Act., the executive authority of the Federation shall be exercised on behalf of His Majesty by the Governor-General, either directly or through officers subordinate to him, but nothing in this section shall prevent the Federal Legislature from conferring functions upon subordinate authorities."
    I should like to know whether those words would empower the Federal Legislature to derogate from the authority or powers conferred upon the Viceroy by this Measure. It is a fundamental point. Ordinarily one would suppose that nothing the Federal Legislature could do could interfere with what was passed by Parliament, but when we see these words,
    1258
    "nothing in this section shall prevent the Federal Legislature from conferring functions upon subordinate authorities."
    I must ask the Government for an assurance that this does not mean that they have power to detract from the Viceroy's power in this respect.
    Sir S. HOARE: The answer to my Noble Friend is that there will be no such power.

    CLAUSE 8.—(Extent of executive authority of the Federation.)
    10.29 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I beg to move, in page 6, line 17, to leave out "or," and insert:
    "(ii)) the said authority -does not, by virtue of this section."
    This Amendment and the following one are really drafting Amendments.
    In page 6, line 20, at the end, to insert:
    "and, where the power of the Federal Legislature to make with respect to any

    1259
    matter laws which apply in a Federated State is subject to any condition or limitation specified in the Instrument of Accession of that State, the said authority shall in that State be subject to a like condition or limitation."
    and I should like, if I may, to deal with them together. The first Amendment divides paragraph (c) (i) into two paragraphs. The second Amendment is intended to make quite clear what was the intention of the Bill, that if a State, in its Instrument of Accession, has made certain limitations in the legislative field, those limitations shall consequently apply in the administrative field. The Committee will know that the administrative and executive authority in. the Bill are defined by reference to the legislative field.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 6, line 20, at the end, insert:
    "and, where the power of the Federal Legislature to make with respect to any matter laws which apply in a Federated State is subject to any condition or limitation specified in the Instrument of Accession of that State, the said authority shall in that State be subject to a like condition or limitation."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    10.31 p.m.
    Captain FULLER: I beg to move in page 6, line 21, to leave out paragraph (ii).
    This Amendment has been put down to elucidate the meaning of the term "adjacent to India." It seems better to us that that should be left out, and that the present condition should be maintained whereby the Governor-General has power to recruit where he wishes. Does the term to which I have referred include such territories as the Trans-Indus where the King's writ does not run or places in Burma whose subjects are not subjects of the Karenni States of His Majesty? If the term includes such places and other places where recruits are obtained at present, the paragraph is rather unnecessary.
    10.33 p.m.
    Mr. BUTLER: The intention of the Sub-section is to exclude the enlistment of foreigners except as regards subjects of Indian States which are included in the term "native of India," and Gurkhas who are included under the term "territories adjacent to India." The hon. and gallant Member will realise that if the Sub-section were omitted it would
    1260
    leave the whole question of enlistment in this respect open to doubt. I hope that after this explanation he will appreciate that if the 'paragraph were left out it would be impossible to continue the enlistment of the Gurkhas who have done such valuable service in the Indian Army, and realising that the paragraph is important to the Bill, he will let it stand.
    10.34 p.m.
    Sir A. KNOX: I do not think the explanation given by the Under-Secretary covers some people who 'are enlisted in the army in India, for instance the tribe of Hazaras from Afghanistan, which is not a native State. I should like to know how they come under the Clause in regard to enlistment as they are one of the pioneer races. The paragraph of course covers the Gurkhas. The term "adjacent to India" seems rather ambiguous.
    Amendment negatived.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    10.35 p.m.
    Viscount WOLMER: I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the words—
    Mr. CHURCHILL: On a point of Order. Do I understand, Captain Bourne, that you are not calling the Amendment standing in the- name of the hon. and gallant Member for Enfield (Lieut.-Colonel Applin)—in page 6, line 31, at the end, to add:
    "Provided further that in granting commissions under this section His Majesty or the Governor-General shall be guided by the advice of the Commander-in-Chief of His Majesty's forces in India."
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That is an Amendment which I have not selected.
    Viscount WOLMER: I want to ask a question relating to the proviso to Clause 8, namely, whether the wording of the proviso covers the concurrent list. It seems to me that it would be impossible for the executive authority of the Federation to secure the enforcement in a Province of laws on matters mentioned in the concurrent list which is included in the Seventh Schedule. We had an Amendment down to ensure that that should be the effect. It would not be in order to discuss that Amendment now,

    1261
    but it was in page 6, line 16, after the word "has," to insert the word "alone," so that the paragraph would read:
    "extend in any Province to matters with respect to which the Provincial Legislature has alone power to make laws."
    It seems to me that, unless that word is put in, the whole question of the concurrent list is left vague, and I should like to ask the Government why they have not made it plain. Can they defend their drafting in this respect? The point is really rather an important one.
    10.37 p.m.
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN: I should like to ask for an explanation on another point, with regard to paragraph (b), which states that the executive authority of the Federation extends
    "to the raising in British India on behalf of His Majesty of naval, military and air forces and to the governance of His Majesty's forces in India."
    What is the meaning of the word "governance"? It is vital to the Bill that the Army should be kept entirely under the Viceroy, and away from any Federal Legislature. If "governance" means that Indian Ministers would have any right to interfere, say in regard to lines of communication, it would be a very serious thing from the point of view of the defence of India and of the whole question of defence, which I hope I shall be allowed to discuss on Clause 11. The right of the Viceroy to move the Army at any time he likes should not be interfered with.
    10.38 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: I can reassure my hon. and gallant Friend. We can deal with that point later, when we come to discuss the whole question of defence. The Department of Defence is reserved, and the Governor-General has the power to take any action in order to prevent anything being done that might directly or indirectly act adversely upon the Army. We can bring out that point more clearly when we come to the actual chapter which deals with defence, but at this stage I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that his fears are groundless.
    With regard to the question put by my Noble Friend the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer) about the scope of the proviso, the intention of the Clause is not to cover the concurrent field to the extent that he mentions. The concurrent
    1262
    field, so far as the Federation will have power to act in it, is covered in Sub section (2) of Clause 125. The concurrent field, which, of course, we can discuss in greater detail later on, is divided into two categories. One category in which both the Federal Legislature and the Provincial Legislatures have the power of legislation but in which the Federal Legislature has no power of giving direction to the Provincial Governments, and the other category in which the Federal Legislature has the power of giving directions to the Provincial Legislatures. The point is covered in Clause 125.
    Viscount WOLMER: Am I right in thinking that this Clause deals with the first category and not with the second?
    Sir S. HOARE: It covers the whole of the concurrent field except Clause 125.
    Viscount WOLMER: There is a most extraordinary phrase at the beginning of the Clause:
    "Subject to the provisions of this Act the executive authority of the Federation shall be exercised."
    Surely the executive authority is the executive authority of the King Emperor acting through his Viceroy? What do we mean by the executive authority of the Federation? Is that not a most extraordinary phrase to use in a constitutional document? Has it ever been used before?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The beginning of Clause 7 (1) makes it clear. The authority that we are dealing with is the executive authority of the Crown so far as it is exercisable in India. The terminology is not unusual. The Subsection reads:
    "Subject to the provisions of this Act the executive authority of the Federation shall be exercised on behalf. of His Majesty by the Governor-General."
    When we come to Clause 8, we are dealing with the executive authority of the Federation, which the previous Clause says shall be exercised on behalf of His Majesty by the Governor-General, and you are simply describing the scope of that particular portion of the executive authority which will be exercised by the Governor-General on behalf of His Majesty according to the provisions of the Bill as the executive authority of the Federation.
    Viscount WOLMER: I thank my hon. and learned Friend, but I wish he had been able to word it differently.
    Mr. EMMOTT: Would not a better and more accurate expression be that used at the beginning of Clause 17, "the Federal Government" instead of "the Federation"?
    10.44 p.m.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: If I have understood my right hon. Friend aright, proviso (i) of this Clause prevents the Central Government giving any direction or guidance to the Provincial Governments in respect of their administration except in so far as there may be any exceptions expressly stated later in the Bill. If I am right in that assumption, then this proviso is one of tremendoum importance to the welfare of the masses of the people of British India, because so much of the efficiency of the Provincial departments may depend upon getting guidance and direction in policy and assistance in grants from the Central Government. To-day the Governor-General has the powers of direction, guidance and control, and though I understand that the policy of the 1919 Government of India Act was to delegate within certain limits his powers to the Provinces, he still has the powers in his hands of direction, guidance and control, if he chooses to exercise them.
    As a matter of fact the Simon Commission, as a result of a very exhaustive inquiry into education which was made by their auxiliary committee, reported that more guidance was needed than the Central Government was giving if education was to be lifted out of a morass of inefficiency The auxiliary committee reported that they wanted the Central Government to resume the power of giving information through a bureau of information which formerly existed, but which came to an end. They wanted guidance and powers to make grants in aid of specific purposes in education. The Linlithgow Commission on Agriculture reported in 1928 in just the same sense in regard to many matters aflecting agriculture. It is not too much to say that the trend of many of the voluminous recommendations made by that Royal Commission is in the direction of the desirability of the Central Government taking a greater
    1264
    share in the guidance and direction of agricultural policy than it had been doing. In particular they wished for agricultural research of all kinds at the centre, and the Government of India proceeded to take action on their recommendations in that respect.
    Sir S. HOARE: If my Noble Friend will forgive me, I suggest it would be for the convenience of the Committee, and it would be much better, to discuss relations between the Centre and the Provinces, such as my Noble Friend is dealing with now, upon the specific chapter dealing with the question, namely, Chapter VII, the relations between the Centre 'and the Provinces. All this Clause does is to say that there should be a Federal sphere and a Provincial sphere, and the question of relations does not come up on this Clause.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: No doubt the right hon. Gentleman knows this tremendous Bill better than I do, but does not proviso (i) expressly prohibit the Federal Government from exercising authority in regard to provincial legislation?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: If I might interrupt for a moment, the Noble Lady will see the words "save as expressly provided in this Act," and I think that they would safeguard any Amendment she might want to move at a later stage.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND TROYTE: My right hon. Friend replied to my hon. and gallant Friend behind in regard to paragraph (b), and I am not clear 'as to the wording of this paragraph. The Clause now reads:
    "The executive authority of the Federation extends … to the governance of His Majesty's Forces in India."
    We are not told why those words are put in. If they mean anything will my right hon. Friends tell us what they mean?
    10.50 p.m.
    Sir S. HOARE: If in a sentence or two I can remove my hon. and gallant Friend's doubts, I will try to do it in this way. Defence is a federal subject. It comes within the ambit of the Federal Government. That does not mean that it is transferred to Ministerial control. It is a Federal subject, but reserved within the Federal field. That is all that

    1265
    is intended by including it in the Clause which deals with the general powers of the federal system.
    10.50 p.m.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: This is a very serious Clause, and the explanation given, and, indeed, the text in the Bill, are typical of the extraordinary contortionary methods now considered the best way of dealing with the innumerable peoples of the East. In the first place, the King Emperor devolves his authority on the Federal Executive, and that authority is devolved in Clause 8 in regard to the most vital matters which can possibly be concerned. The Federal Executive is given power to raise in British India naval, military and air forces, and the government of all these powers is freely conceded in order to give a feeling of real responsible government. Then, by a later Clause, the whole of this is taken back. First it is given, then taken back. It is perfectly true, and it is no good contradicting it. Here is power given to the Federal Executive to do all this and at the same time it does not mean that the Indian people or Ministers have any power, the whole thing being withdrawn and reserved under the purview of the Viceroy himself by a later provision not in the Bill but in a statement made to cover the Bill.
    When Dominion status is given, the whole of these powers are to go to the Federal Legislature, and there will be nothing to prevent them from taking over the whole of these powers under the Statute of Westminster. First they are given, then temporarily withdrawn, but only for a transitional period, for in the ultimate stage they are to be handed over under Dominion status and the Federal Executive is then to have power. This temporary arrangement is, to be quite frank, the best way, in the opinion of the Government. They are to raise and command forces in India, including any forces of British extraction, which may be so unfortunate as to be left in that country at that time. What is the value of paragraph (c) in Clause 8 about the enlistment of foreigners? Once the Statute of Westminster is operating in India it will be perfectly possible to tear up the whole of this instrument, to enlist foreign officers, to organise the Indian army, with not one word of security. In view of the expectations
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    held out, I would ask the Committee to consider not only the consequences—we are not in a position to resist this Clause—but to see the frightful elaboration of the process considered necessary to appeal to the Oriental mind. First, they say, "We will give you everything.'' Then it is taken back, and then—"Ah, but never mind, in the distant future, perhaps not so distant, for the coming of which we will not specify any date—we might say 150 years, you may call it five years or when the next Government comes in—you are to have complete Dominion status, and then you will be able to tear this up and possibly engage Swedes, or Germans, or Japanese to officer your Army if you want to." All this farce is gone through in the hope of pleasing the sentimental feelings of Indians. No, Sir, they are much too clever: one of the reasons why you have lost contact is that you have never been able to deal with them on a dead level.
    Sir S. HOARE: My right hon. Friend has a wonderful way of creating prejudice in regard to harmless propositions. This is simply the constitutional method of expressing the position which, so far as I know, has been accepted by everybody who has taken part in any of these discussions during the last four years, namely, that while defence is a federal subject, as indeed it must be, defence under this Statute, directly and indirectly, is reserved to the Crown. My right hon. Friend has given the impression that the effect of a provision of this kind will be to lead up inevitably to a situation in which defence will be surrendered and that the Indian Legislature will have complete control over all these questions of defence. What the future may bring neither he nor I can prophesy, but what I can say to the Committee to-night is that under the provisions of this Bill that cannot happen, and it could only be done by subsequent amendment of this Act. Parliament, being sovereign in these matters and having control, will take what action it thinks fit in future, but for the moment it is creating prejudice and misrepresenting the actual position to give the impression which the right hon. Gentleman has given to the Committee that these kind of things will come along, without anyone knowing of it, under the provisions of this Bill.
    10.59 p.m.
    Colonel GRETTON: There is a point in regard to paragraph (b) which I should like to have cleared up. I do not understand it. This paragraph apparently hands over to the Federation most important matters concerning defence, with regard to the raising in British India, on behalf of His Majesty of naval, military and air forces and the governance of His Majesty's Forces in India. That appears to be a complete contradiction. We have always been assured that defence was to be a reserved service under the control of the Viceroy, but here is a Clause handing it over to the Federal Executive.
    Sir S. HOARE: It is all reserved under the Bill.
    Colonel GRETTON: Here it is not. It is being handed over to the Federation, and that is a contradiction.
    Lord E. PERCY: Read the Bill.
    Colonel GRETTON: This is a matter of serious importance.
    10.59 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I think my right hon. and gallant Friend is under a misapprehension. He thinks that Clause 8 only deals with matters which are dealt with by the responsible Legislature. Clause 8 deals with the whole of the executive authority, including the necessary authority over the reserved services.
    Ordered, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Captain Margesson.]
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at One Minute after Eleven o'Clock.

SCOTLAND.
  DISTURBANCES, DUNDEE.
  DISTURBANCES, DUNDEE.
  LIQUID ILK AND BREAD (CONSUMPTION).
  LIQUID ILK AND BREAD (CONSUMPTION).
  SECOND SCOTTISH NATIONAL HOUSING COMPANY.
  SECOND SCOTTISH NATIONAL HOUSING COMPANY.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  CENSUS OF PRODUCTION.
  CENSUS OF PRODUCTION.
  PALESTINE (CITRUS EXPORT).
  PALESTINE (CITRUS EXPORT).
  ITALY.
  ITALY.
  ANGLIAN INSURANCE COMPANY.
  ANGLIAN INSURANCE COMPANY.
  TIN REGULATION SCHEME.
  TIN REGULATION SCHEME.
  BRITISH GUIANA (ELECTIONS).
  BRITISH GUIANA (ELECTIONS).
  TRINIDAD (HARBOUR WORKS' CONTRACT).
  TRINIDAD (HARBOUR WORKS' CONTRACT).
  AIR LINERS (PASSENGERS' SAFETY).
  AIR LINERS (PASSENGERS' SAFETY).
  COAL INDUSTRY (ACCIDENTS).
  COAL INDUSTRY (ACCIDENTS).
  ADMIRALTY INDUSTRIAL EMPLOYES (STATISTICS).
  ADMIRALTY INDUSTRIAL EMPLOYES (STATISTICS).
  MEXICO (POSTAL ADMINISTRATION).
  MEXICO (POSTAL ADMINISTRATION).
  SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH (STATE EXPENDITURE).
  SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH (STATE EXPENDITURE).
  BOLIVIA (SUPPLY OF ARMS).
  BOLIVIA (SUPPLY OF ARMS).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  ASSISTANCE BOARD.
  ASSISTANCE BOARD.
  INSURANCE.
  INSURANCE.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
MARLOW WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
SOUTH SUBURBAN GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.

CHHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY): My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, Viscount Hailsham, I desire to move the Resolution which stands in his name upon the Order Paper. I invite your Lordships to accept this Motion in order to relieve the noble Earl the Lord Chairman, the Earl of Onslow, from occupying the Chair in your Lordships' House, which he is unable to do at present, because of urgent private affairs with which I know all your Lordships will sympathise.
Moved, That the Lord Stanmore be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of this House in the temporary absence of the Earl of Onslow; that the Lord Stanmore do take the Chair in all Committees of the Whole House unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House; that the Lord Stanmore do also take the Chair in all Committees upon Private Bills and other matters unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

IMPRISONMENT FOR NON-PAYMENT OF FINES, ETC.
LORD ARNOLD LORD ARNOLD rose to call attention to the Report of the Departmental Committee on imprisonment in default of payment of fines, rates and other sums of money; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the matter which I am venturing to ask your Lordships to consider this afternoon is one of much importance, but it is one which, I
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think I may say, is to a very large extent non-controversial. My object in putting the Motion upon the Paper is to help in reducing the number of persons sent to prison for non-payment of fines, nonpayment of wife maintenance orders and affiliation orders, and nonpayment of rates. On grounds of justice and of humanity as well as on grounds of economy, I think there is a strong case for something being done in that direction, and for implementing the reforms recommended by the Departmental Committee which was set up in the summer of 1933 to consider these problems.
Some little time before that Committee was set up, a debate on these matters was initiated in your Lordships' House by my noble friend Lord Snell and was replied to by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, who foreshadowed that in all probability an inquiry would be undertaken. The Committee was set up by the present Home Secretary in the summer of 1933, and it reported in July, 1934. Its Report is a valuable one, and will well repay very close study. The Committee, an influential one, unanimously came to the conclusion that it is practicable considerably to reduce the number of imprisonments on account of fines, wife maintenance and affiliation orders, rates and so forth. The exact words used by the Committee were these:
"We are glad to report that in our opinion it is practicable to reduce considerably the number of imprisonments, and we believe that the proposals we make for this purpose will commend themselves generally to the men and women who have practical experience of the work of the courts of summary jurisdiction."
When a Committee which has carefully considered these problems, and all aspects of them, at great length, comes to a conclusion like that, I submit that its findings ought not to be pigeon-holed, but that they ought to form the basis of reforms; and I submit that the way for such reforms is open.
That this problem of imprisonment for non-payment of fines, wife maintenance and affiliation orders and rates is a big one can readily he appreciated when I tell your Lordships that the number of persons sent to prison in 1932—these are the last available figures—for non-payment in these three matters was no less than 20,416.

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This Committee did not deal with the question of imprisonment for civil debts dealt with in the County Courts—that was not within its terms of reference—but for the moment let me add the number of persons sent to prison for civil debts, which in 1932 was 3,856. Add that to the 20,416 and you arrive at a total of 24,272 persons imprisoned for debt of all kinds. That is not far short of one-half of the total imprisonments for all causes in England and Wales in 1932, which numbered 53,150. Indeed, if I were to add to that figure the number of persons sent to prison because they could not afford to find bail—though that does not come strictly within the terms of our discussion this afternoon—the result would be that more than half the total number of persons imprisoned are in prison for inability to find money for one purpose or another.
Let me analyse a little more closely the figures of 1932 as between the three headings, which I have put before your Lordships. The total number was 20,416 and of those 11,244 were in prison for nonpayment of fines, 6,083 for non-payment of wife maintenance orders and affiliation orders, and 3,089 for non-payment of rates. It is very satisfactory to be able to record that the number of persons sent to prison in default of payment of fines during the last twenty years or so has been reduced by over 60,000 per annum. It has been reduced from about 75,000 to, as I say, in 1932, 11,244. That is a very great achievement. Over 60,000 persons per annum have been saved from going to gaol and this incalculable saving of human suffering and anxiety—to say nothing about the saving of expense to the State—has been accomplished without any injury to the community or to the administration of justice, but rather with advantage to all the interests concerned. This very considerable reduction in the number of persons going to prison for non-payment of fines was largely brought about by the passage of the Criminal Justice Administration Act of 1914, which, as a general rule, requires courts to allow time for the payment of fines. When we think of the vast amount of suffering which has been saved by that merciful provision of the Act of 1914, I submit that it strongly fortifies the case for further legislation which will again reduce the number of persons who are being sent to prison.
I would again emphasise that the members of the Departmental Committee gave it as their deliberate opinion that the number of such persons can be considerably reduced. It is quite true that the percentage of persons going to prison for non-payment of fines is small. The total number of persons fined in 1932 was 437,834. Of those, as I have said, 11,244 went to prison. That figure works out at somewhere about 2½, per cent. It has been suggested that therefore there is not very much need for concern. I do not take that view. That figure of 11,244 constitutes a very considerable number of persons. One or two magistrates who have been interested in this Motion that I have put upon the Paper have come to me and said that they never dream of sending anybody to prison if it can possibly be avoided. That may be so in some cases, but the fact remains that a considerable number, as the Departmental Committee say, of those 11,244 persons who were sent to prison might be saved from prison if the various recommendations which the Committee make were carried through.
It is, of course, quite impossible to go through all the recommendations of the Departmental Committee, and I will confine myself to two or three of the most important. The first and most vital recommendation is that, speaking broadly, persons who have been convicted and fined should not be sent to prison unless the mind of the court has been specifically directed to the question of their imprisonment. That by no means always happens under the present system. If that were done, it would mean that a considerable number of persons who now go to prison would be saved from that fate, because the Committee recommends that in appropriate cases a man should in the first instance be fined only and also given time for payment, and if he defaults he must appear again before the court, and then may be sentenced to imprisonment; but he will not, in any event, go to prison until his second appearance and until the circumstances of his case have been reviewed and considered.
Let me make it clear that there is a considerable number of cases to which this procedure of the second appearance actually in the court would not apply. Those are cases of habitual drunkards and vagrants, certain grave offences, and

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certain very trivial offences which are met by a fine of five shillings or less, which may be served by just a few hours detention in a police cell. In cases such as those which I have been indicating, the court would at the time when it imposed the fine give a certificate that in its opinion it was not necessary for the person, if he could not pay the fine, to appear before the court again. But in practically all the other cases—and they would be a very considerable number; I am not going into statistics, but I dare say it might be nearly half, or somewhere about half—the case would in the first instance be dealt with, as I have said, by a fine only raid time allowed for payment. If that fine were not met in due course, then the convicted person would appear before the court and the whole circumstances would be reviewed; because in the first instance no sentence of imprisonment would be passed in default of the fine: the sentence would be a fine and a fine only.
The Departmental Committee gave certain instances of the kind of thing they want to stop, and, with your Lordships' permission, I will read an extract from the Report of the Committee following upon what I have just said:
"Most defaulters are poor people with little knowledge of court procedure and they frequently do not realise the serious consequences of failure to make provision for the fine. Cases of the following kind occur. A youth, who is out of work, is guilty of ' larking ' about the street in some disorderly and troublesome manner. He is summoned for obstruction or malicious damage or some offence against the local by-laws. He ignores the summons and is fined in his absence and given time to pay. He may, or may not, receive notification of the fine. (At many courts the practice is to print on the summons a note that if the defendant does not attend and wishes to learn the result of the proceedings, he must send a stamped and addressed envelope to the clerk, but it is seldom that a poor defendant complies with this requirement.) Even if he receives a notification of the fine, it makes little impression on him. Perhaps he hopes that the matter will be forgotten, or that he will get a job and some money before the time expires. Anyhow, he does nothing. The time runs out. The only facts known to the court "—
under the present procedure—
"are that an offence has been committed for which a penalty had to be imposed, and that the offender has neither answered the summons nor paid the fine nor communicated with the court; the inference is that he has shown a culpable disregard of the law. A commitment warrant is issued, and
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a decent, though careless youth is taken to prison, possibly a few days after he has got a job."
Let me tell your Lordships one or two other cases which have come to my knowledge. A boy—or rather not a boy, a youth; he must have been more than seventeen years of age—was actually in prison for swinging in the park on the wrong swing. He had been fined. He was careless, and because the fine was not paid, and perhaps could not be paid, he had to go to prison for that offence. Another case which came to my knowledge was that of a man who was driving a commercial lorry to London. He had had a very long journey indeed and was extremely tired, and as he had to drive into London and it was getting dark he drew up by the roadside—I think it was on the Great North Road—to have a little rest; a very wise thing to do. Unfortunately for him he fell asleep. He was very tired, and he remained asleep until he was awakened at two o'clock in the morning by a police constable. His lorry was right on the side of the road out of the way, but still technically he was on the roadway, and he was charged with obstructing the highway. He said that he was very sorry, that he was very tired, and was having a little rest before driving into the City. What followed? He gave, as he was required to do, his name and address and the name and address of his employers. He did not know what was going to happen—whether he was going to be summoned or not. In the event he was summoned, and the summons was sent to his employer. But there was some delay, as there often is in these cases, and unfortunately for him in the interval he had been discharged from the service of the firm—not for any misconduct, but because they were reducing hands. As the result, the summons never reached him, he knew nothing at all about it, and probably hoped, like many motorists do, that the offence had been forgotten and no notice taken of it. He knew nothing at all until he was haled off to gaol. That is what happened.
Cases like that are, I venture to say, deplorable, and under the procedure suggested by the, Report, they would be stopped, because in the first place the man would be fined only and if he had not paid the fine—he probably would have paid it—he would have to appear a second time before the court before he went to prison, and then the circum-

1095
stances could be reviewed and considered, and of course, in the vast majority of cases there would be no question of imprisonment at all. These cases illustrate a point which it is very important to remember in dealing with this problem, and that is that under the present system it frequently happens that after a fine has been imposed the court knows nothing more about the course of events. In many cases it does not know what happens. It does not know whether the fine has been paid or not, and does not know whether or not the person fined has gone to prison. So that it is not using too strong language to say that the present regulations often operate harshly, and are indeed, I submit to your Lordships, indefensible.
The court is practically in ignorance, for instance, of how much it is possible for a convicted person to pay, and it is highly desirable that the court should have reliable information as to persons who have been convicted, to have a guide as to what time should be allowed for payment. The Departmental Committee has very fully considered that aspect of this matter, and recommends that a court should have an investigation officer to enquire into the means of persons who are fined. It is quite true that investigation officers will cost a little money, but any expenditure of that kind would be more than made good by the saving due to the lessened number of imprisonments, to say nothing of the saving in human suffering and anxiety on the part of the defendants and their relations. And all this is quite apart from the immense gain both to the individual and to the community, by not lowering to the prison level a man who has committed no crime deserving of prison.
In dealing with this branch of the subject I will refer only to one further recommendation of the Departmental Committee, which relates to the expenses incurred by clerks to justices. Under the existing system a clerk to justice's often suffers financially if he tries to help persons who have been convicted by bringing pressure to bear upon them to pay their fines or advising them of the danger and jeopardy of their position. A justices' clerk who is of a kindly disposition and who wishes to help poor convicted people in this way actually has to find the money out of his own pocket. That is clearly wrong and the Depart-
1096
mental Committee recommends that that should be changed. I would like, if I may, to read one further extract from the Report dealing with this particular point. It refers to the fact that the clerk is usually paid a fixed amount for his services. The Report says:
"In most places, however, the effect of the lump sum is that the more the clerk spends on assistants or on books, forms, postages, etc., the less he has for himself. As we shall show later in this Report, the more trouble a clerk takes to send notifications to defaulters, to accept and bring into account payments by instalments and to make inquiries before the issue of committal warrants, the more likelihood there is that the amount owing will be paid and imprisonments avoided. Work of this kind may involve not only trouble but extra expenditure on clerical labour and postage, and it is clearly wrong that a clerk should be liable to suffer financially for doing his work well."
I do not think, my Lords, there will be much dispute about the desirability of that recommendation.
I wish to pass on to the other branches of the subject, but before doing so I would like to stress this important point as one which should be steadily kept in view, that so far as a man is sent to prison for non-payment of fines is concerned in the public mind that is a form of imprisonment and there is a stigma attaching to it, much the same as to imprisonment for a criminal offence. That is an important consideration. The man has been to prison and that will always be known against him. A great deal might also be said about the evils of short-term imprisonment. The noble Viscount on the Woolsack dealt with that forcibly when my noble friend Lord Snell brought up the subject in debate in 1932 and I would like to quote some of the noble Viscount's words, but the fact remains that he was very much concerned, as are all those who have anything to do with the administration of law, about this question of short-term imprisonment.
I will pass to the second branch of the subject and deal with it briefly, not because it is unimportant but because I do not wish to make a speech of undue length. It is the question of the nonpayment of wife's maintenance orders and affiliation orders. The Departmental Committee has much to say about these problems, but the main object of its recommendations is to ensure that no

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one shall be sent to prison for noncompliance with wife's maintenance orders or affiliation orders unless that non-compliance is due to "wilful refusal or culpable neglect." Those words appear again and again in this Report, and I do not know what better words could be used. Moreover, they say that the court must satisfy itself by inquiries that those are the reasons for non-compliance, so that, as the Committee says, a man would not be sent to prison until his circumstances had been enquired into.
The Committee states definitely that the present system operates partially and that the number of imprisonments under these heads can be considerably reduced. In the Report an extract is quoted from a report by the Governor of Lewes prison relating to a man who had been called upon to pay a certain amount week by week for his wife's maintenance and had failed in his payments. This particular man was in another district by that time, but a warrant was issued for his arrest and he was taken to Lewes prison. I will read the exact words of the report:
"It happens quite frequently that a man is committed after being brought a considerable distance when, had it been possible to investigate his case in his own locality, it would have been found that he was not in a position, through unemployment, to comply with the order and that he was not in a position to ask for variation or suspension because he could not afford to make the journey to apply at the court in person. In one case a man was committed and subsequently released on representation from the wife that, although he had defaulted earlier, he was at the time of his committal providing for her. In this case committal deprived the man of his work and his wife of her maintenance."
I think that should be steadily borne in mind, that quite often the consequence of sending a man to prison is bad not only for the man but also for the wife, because then the man will lose his job and the wife will not get her money, which in other circumstances she possibly, or probably in certain cases, would in time have done. Two further recommendations of the Committee deal with the question of the piling up of arrears, a difficult and important matter, and the making of weekly payments under orders proportionate to the means of the man. It is difficult to see what valid criticism can lie against recommendations like these, which if carried out would result
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in a considerable reduction in the number of imprisonments for non-compliance with wife's maintenance orders and affiliation orders.
Finally, I come to the question of rates, and I think it is high time that the problem of imprisonment for non-payment of rates was considered by Parliament. As I have said, in 1932, the last figures which are available, no fewer than 3,089 persons were put in prison for nonpayment of rates, and it is quite certain that a large number of these people would not have to go to gaol at all if the Committee's recommendations were carried out. It is certain that a vast proportion of them ought not to have been in gaol. The Departmental Committee make definite recommendations that in future no one shall be sent to prison for nonpayment of rates except he is guilty of wilful refusal or culpable neglect to pay. The precise recommendation is in these terms;
"No defaulter shall be committed to prison until he has been brought personally by summons, or if that fails, on warrant, before the court and given an opportunity to explain his default. On his appearance the court should satisfy itself, by independent inquiry if necessary, whether or not the failure to pay is due to circumstances beyond the defaulter's control and should not commit him to prison unless satisfied that his default is due to wilful refusal or culpable neglect."
That is the recommendation, and, my Lords, it is much needed, all the more so as at the present time there is a striking difference in the figures as between the various rating authorities.
Obviously some rating authorities take a very different view of what should be done, and what they can do in this matter, as compared with other authorities, and it is most unfortunate that in this matter there should be almost a routine procedure, because it is said that the state of things almost amounts to a miscarriage of justice. Those are strong words, but it is what the Committee says. Those words "miscarriage of justice" appear in the Committee's Report as representing its considered opinion in regard to what is going on at the present time in many places. The Committee stresses the fact that in certain cases the procedure is faulty, because commitment warrants are applied for without examination of the defaulter by the court or any inquiry into his circumstances. They give the case of an old age pensioner of 84

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who was taken to prison for not paying his rates. He was only getting 10s. a week; that was all he had; it was quite impossible for him to pay. The case came to my knowledge of a man, whose child was dying, who was taken off to prison two days before Christmas for nonpayment of rates. There was no wilful refusal or culpable neglect to pay; he was unemployed; he had not got the money. I was speaking not long ago at a town on the South coast. I was told there of a man connected with the organisation for which I was speaking, who had been summoned for non-payment of £5 in rates. He was unemployed, he could not pay. He felt the position so keenly that he was going to commit suicide. When this became known, his friends, all poor people, managed to find the £5 and got him out of gaol.
It is quite true that there is a provision now in the law which ought to stop this kind of thing. It is in the Rating and Valuation Act, 1925, Section 2 (3) (b), which says:
"notwithstanding anything in the Distress for Rates Act, 1849, the justices shall not issue a warrant of commitment …. against any person who proves to their satisfaction that his failure to pay is due to circumstances beyond his control."
It is a fact that that provision is not operative in London, but I believe in London it would be true to say that it would be very largely acted upon by many magistrates if it were known. The difficulty is that it is not known, and, even if it were, the defaulter has no money to put his case. He does not know how to go about it. He never appears before the court, and so, after a certain time, he is haled off to gaol.
The Committee recommends that this should be altered and that the burden of proof as to whether a man can or cannot pay his rates should not necessarily be upon the defaulter or necessarily upon the local authority. The justices, they say, should be free to use discretion, and should be under a duty, if desirable, to investigate the matter through the investigation officer. But finally, as I have said, it is recommended that the justices should not commit to prison unless they are satisfied, after independent inquiry if necessary, that the failure to pay rates is due to wilful refusal or culpable neglect. It is perfectly true that that change in the law, if it were made, would keep
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out of prison a very large proportion of those who go there now for non-payment of rates. Taken in conjunction with a further recommendation of the Committee, which I will refer to, we should arrive at a state if things where imprisonment for non-payment of rates would be very largely brought to an end.
The Committee further recommends that the system of compounding for rates should be made, within certain limits, compulsory in this country. As your Lordships know, under that system the rent and rates are paid together. The tenants do not pay rates; they are included in the rent. Under compounding there really is practically no question of going to prison for non-payment of rates. In Scotland, where compounding is mandatory, imprisonment for non-payment of rates is almost unknown. In 1932, out of a population of 4,800,000 only eight persons went to prison for that reason, against 3,089 in England and Wales, with a population of about 45,000,000. In Glasgow, with a population of over a million not one person went to prison for non-payment of rates in 1932. I may further tell your Lordships, in passing, that another advantage of this system is that in Glasgow, out of a total rate collection of over £6,000,000, the amount which it was impossible finally to collect was as small as £10,040. In this country, owing to the procedure which the Committee wants altered, things are very different. In the County of London—not the Metropolitan District—with a population of 4,386,000, there were 1,214 persons sent to prison for non-payment of rates. In Southampton, with a population of 176,000, as many as 151 persons—a very high proportion—were imprisoned for non-payment of rates.
In view of these facts your Lordships will appreciate the recommendation of the Committee that this system of compounding for rates should be made compulsory in this country, within certain limits. If that were done, and the other change in the law were made, this system of imprisonment for rates would very largely be brought to an end. As further showing how very urgently this reform is needed, I believe it is not an exaggeration to say that scarcely one of the prison governors who gave evidence before the Departmental Committee supported incarceration for non-payment of rates. The Committee gave instances which

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came to its knowledge where the rate collector himself has paid the rates out of his own pocket to prevent a man going to prison. That is very creditable to the rate collector, but it is discreditable to the system which brings about such an extraordinary state of things. Before concluding, I would just refer to the fact, which I have already touched upon, that the Report of this Departmental Committee does not deal with the question of imprisonment for civil debts. That was not within their purview; it was outside their terms of reference. But the total number of persons imprisoned for non-payment of County Court debts in 1932 was 3,856. It is therefore a very considerable problem, and one which I hope will be dealt with very soon.
I trust I have not trespassed unduly upon your Lordships' time. This is a very big question. I have tried to compress the chief recommendations of the Report into a short space of time, and I very much hope that this Report, which is unanimous, or virtually unanimous—seven-eighths of it is unanimous—and which has aroused very little opposition outside—indeed, very few Reports have met with such a large measure of agreement—will lead to something being done. A considerable number of the recommendations of this Committee could be carried out without legislation. They could be carried out administratively. I do not know if the noble Lord who will reply for the Government will say that the Government are unable to bring in legislation because they have not got time. I have had a pretty long experience of Governments now, and my experience is that they can always say they cannot find time if they have not got the will to do a thing. If they have got the will, they can nearly always find time. But the amount of time which would be requisite to implement the recommendations of this Report would be quite small, because the subject is not really controversial. I cannot give any definite pledge, but I have no hesitation in saying that the Party to which I belong would, I believe, give every aid to the passage of legislation—and legislation this year, which in many ways is going to be a very notable year. I think the Government and the Home Secretary have now an almost unrivalled opportunity of effecting real reforms which will lessen human
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suffering and decrease our prison population, and at the same time achieve those results with advantage to the community, and with increased respect for the administration of the law. I beg to move.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I feel sure that all your Lordships who have listened to the lucid speech of the noble Lord opposite will agree that something ought to be done in this matter, and I believe that the more your Lordships know of the practical method of operation, the more you will feel it to be a reproach upon our legislative system if this survival of a barbaric past is allowed to continue for want of preparation and presentation of a Bill which would be the subject of common consent. In the main what the noble Lord has been dwelling upon is embodied in one recommendation of the Report of time Committee to which he has referred—namely, Recommendation No. 27, which is in these terms:
"Before issuing a warrant of committal to prison for failure to pay, the court should investigate the question how far failure is due to circumstances beyond the defaulter's control and should only issue a warrant if satisfied after such investigation that his default is due to wilful refusal or culpable neglect."
If the various grounds of imprisonment as they exist now were set forth, and it were provided in one clause with regard to them in the terms of this Report, it would remove the most substantial part of a very serious hardship.
Anybody who knows anything about this thing knows what happens in a variety of cases. One class of case to which the noble Lord referred was that arising between husband and wife. I saw a great deal of that at one time, and was able, from time to time, to modify orders in which imprisonment had followed automatically upon failure to pay; but that brought home to my mind the fact that in the great majority of cases what happened was that a man who had been ordered to pay and had failed to pay was simply made the subject of a warrant of committal and arrested, and might be arrested and imprisoned several times. That is a survival of a barbaric system. One hundred years ago imprisonment for debt was effective in this country. Charles Dickens did a great deal to expose the savage wickedness of it, and it came to

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an end substantially; it came to an end, practically, for well-to-do people; but it has not come to an end for the poor people who are the subject of these various classes of orders. Really it does seem, if it is so simple a matter as it strikes me it is, that if one can embody in a Bill the penal provisions to which the Bill relates, and then make the modification which is recommended by the Committee, that ought to be done. It is a reproach to all of us if it is not done, and so I heartily support the demand which the noble Lord has made.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I hope I may be allowed a few brief observations. First, I should like to express appreciation of the way in which this Motion has been presented by the noble Lord who has moved it, not only because of the lucidity of his exposition but also because of the care he has taken to get up the facts which he has presented to your Lordships in a way which I think could not be surpassed. I am very much indebted to him for much of what he has said. One would like to have said it, but I could not attempt to do it as well as he has done it to-day. I desire to say that those associated with me feel very strongly upon this matter as it has been presented by the noble Lord and by my noble and learned friend Lord Merrivale, who naturally addresses your Lordships on a subject of this kind with special knowledge and experience. He has lent the weight of his authority to the support of this Motion. I desire to say that we on this side of the House would certainly agree to give any amount of time that may be necessary, and any facilities, to remedy what is certainly a survival of a more savage time than the present.
The difficulty, as was indicated by my noble and learned friend Lord Merrivale, is that these orders of imprisonment affect people simply because for some reason or other they are unable to pay. It is not suggested that if they wilfully refuse or neglect to comply with the order of the court, they should not be imprisoned. But if a man fails to pay through no fault of his own, it is most unfortunate that he should not only be put in prison but be besmirched afterwards with having been in prison, for, as the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, said, most people do not draw a distinction
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between imprisonment for a crime and imprisonment for non-payment of rates or whatever it may be. All they know is that the man has been in prison. In these circumstances, affecting as they must the poor of this country, I think it is imperative we should take what steps we can to remedy the situation, realising as we do that it does not apply to the wealthy, or even to the middle class, but to people who very often through no fault of their own are unable to meet the orders which have been made. I hope that the Government will not only give a sympathetic response, but will insist on time being found in order that we may be able to deal with what is undoubtedly a very great hardship.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, after the very clear statement of the noble Lord opposite and the very weighty pronouncement of Lord Merrivale on this side, there really is not very much more to be said, but I should like for one moment, as a humble Back Bencher, to express the surprise which I felt at learning the facts which have been brought to your Lordships' notice to-day. It really is a matter of astonishment to me to learn that no fewer than three thousand people every year go to prison for failure to pay their rates. I quite understand, as the noble Marquess has pointed out, that they are not going to prison in a sense for debt, but because they fail to comply with the order of the court, but it really does come to the same thing. Two cases have come to my notice within the last few months. One is that of a lad of seventeen who has been unemployed and cycling round the country looking for work. He was fined 10s. for failing to have a light. Cycling without a light was very foolish no doubt on his part, but when he cannot pay it is not right that a lad of seventeen should go to prison for failure to pay the fine in such a case. If you look at the other end of the scale of misery, one hears of an unemployed man with an income of 29s. a week and a wife and four children going to prison for failure to pay his rates when there is not a penny in the house, or even any food. That is so definitely wrong that I cannot help thinking the Government will find time to put the matter right.
On the question of how to remedy the imprisonment for failure to pay rates, I

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was interested to hear the noble Lord's reference to the Report and to the comparison with what happened in Scotland. I suppose I may assume that the ratepayers of Glasgow are not more anxious to part with their money than the ratepayers in the southern parts of the country. It is not the reputation of my countrymen to be more ready than others to part with their money. I think we can, therefore, assume that it is some merit of the system. As the noble Lord said, the compounding of rates is in many cases compulsory. While it has the disadvantage that the small rentpayer perhaps does not know what he is paying in rates, and it may be argued that he cannot therefore take such an intelligent interest in the affairs of the community, nevertheless here we have at all events a very good example of the benefits which result. I think, if I may say so, that this is only one of the instances in which there is something to be learned from how we manage affairs in Scotland, and possibly it is an example which will not be lost sight of. I do not wish to take up more time. I did, however, want to say, what I think a great many of us feel, that we really did not know that this state of affairs existed, but now that we do know it we confidently look to the Government to put an end to it.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I only want in a sentence or two to associate myself very cordially with everything that has been said this afternoon on this matter and with the gratitude we owe to the noble Lord opposite for bringing it to our attention. There was a time when, as prison chaplain, I was continually brought into close contact with this problem, and again and again it seemed to me strange indeed that otherwise quite honest and decent folk who, for mere want of means, had been unable to pay the fines imposed upon them or meet the orders granted against them, were immediately and without further investigation put into prison. I cannot say, with the noble Lord who has just spoken, that the matter has not been known. I have always been surprised that so little action has been taken; but now that a Departmental Committee after going into the matter with the greatest possible care has reported, and reported subject to one or two reservations quite unanimously, I earnestly hope the Government will not
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delay doing all it can to put right a wrong which, as the noble Lord behind me has said, has been allowed to continue too long.
So far as investigations are concerned, which the Departmental Committee propose should precede a committal to prison for default of payment, that comes within matters that we hope another Departmental Committee will be able to bring again before our notice. But much may be done, I suggest, without appointing other expensive officers by the development of the probation system to see that in all these cases prior investigation is made. If it were done I am satisfied that the number of people both old and young who now find their way to prison, with all the ignominy that rightly attaches to committal to prison, would be saved from that degradation when the fault is one which really cannot be laid to their charge. I only wish in these few sentences to associate myself with what has been said, and to trust that the Government will do all they can to facilitate a Bill of this kind when it is introduced. We know the immense pressure upon their programme. I believe with the noble Lord that there would be no controversy raised on this matter once the facts are known, and we have a unanimous Committee behind it. I hope the Government will not avail themselves of the plea of pressure upon their time elsewhere to deny your Lordships the opportunity of pressing forward an urgent matter of domestic legislation.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, when I had the honour of presenting this problem to your Lordships' House in December, 1932, nothing astonished me more at that time than the general absence of knowledge—I do not mean in your Lordships' House merely but throughout the country—that there was concerning the conditions that really prevail. At that time I received hundreds of letters of astonishment from people who believed that imprisonment for debt had ended in the time of Dickens. To some extent it had. Imprisonment for Certain classes of cases has been abolished, but the figures which I then presented to your Lordships' House—and they have been more or less repeated to-day—will show that there is something really very substantial yet to be done. As the result of the Motion which I made at that time, we received

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from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack a most clear and full statement of the issue, and since then this Departmental Committee has been sitting. It has presented a practically unanimous Report and the matter now passes out of our hands.
The responsibility for the continuance of this unfortunate state of things now belongs to His Majesty's Government, and the time seems to me to have come when we should be rightly impatient if the Government does not find time to deal with this question in a very drastic way. It is a shocking thing that every year many thousands of our fellow citizens who are not criminals have to suffer this degradation, which must leave a stamp upon their spiritual nature for the rest of their lives. In regard to imprisonment for debt, we are really the most backward of all the nations on the earth. But one point which distressed me very much two years ago I still feel to be most important. It is that the peak of unemployment always coincides with the increase of the number of men who are sent to prison for non-payment of debts of one kind or another. Let me give your Lordships one or two figures. In 1913 when the unemployed percentage was 2.1 the number of people imprisoned for non-payment of debt was 3,554. In 1917 when the proportion of unemployed had been reduced to 0.7, the number of men imprisoned for non-payment of debt had fallen to 1,195. In 1921 when unemployment had risen to 17 per cent. the number had increased to 5,383, and in 1931 when the unemployed proportion was 21 per cent., the number of men who were sent to prison for non-payment of debt had risen to 6,563.
Whatever our political opinions may be, I feel that we shall all agree that when a man becomes a victim of the prevailing economic depression he ought not to be sent to prison because he cannot meet his ordinary civil obligations. His debts may have been contracted partly through the education of his children, or through sickness in his family; he may have signed papers, or his wife may have done so, at the instance of touts who call at the door, upon the expectation that he would be able to pay, and that then unemployment had come and financial disaster had fallen upon him. I need not continue the story any longer.
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The facts put before your Lordships by my noble friend Lord Arnold show that this grievance cries aloud for remedy, and we ought really to face it. A man ought not to be sent to prison on that account. I would like, before I close, to say that for myself I have never asked for the total repeal of the law under which a man can be sent to prison for non-payment of debts. Some people will not pay except under the greatest coercion and that right should properly be held in the hands of magistrates and Judges. Let us remember when we are thinking of undue leniency that the creditors may be, and are in many cases, a man's own wife and children and they have to be protected. Let us remember on the other hand that undue severity results in a man's imprisonment, and that imprisonment brings financial and spiritual loss both to him and to his wife and family.
When I was in America some years ago I visited the domestic courts of that country. I had the privilege of sitting by the side of Judges in the great cities of America whilst cases were being dealt with and I examined the whole matter at some length. I very clearly came to the conviction that so far as this section of the problem is concerned, in regard to wife maintenance, a vast amount of that could be saved in this country if the proper facilities were provided. I introduced in the House of Commons year after year a Bill to try to deal with that important matter, but the House was always too busy with other, and I do not doubt more important, things. But I am quite sure that there is a case for looking at this matter as a whole and not dealing with it in piecemeal fashion. Again, my Lords, when I was in America a year or two ago, a Judge of the Supreme Court was good enough to express to me in the most emphatic way his admiration and the admiration of jurists for the Common Law of England. I was thrilled with pride, but also very thankful that they did not know about this blot upon that system which has been brought before your Lordships this afternoon. I feel that prison should be the rod of the law and should be the instrument for the punishment of acts of direct crime. It should not be a torture house for people merely because they are unable to meet their civic obligations. I hope with the rest of your Lordships that the noble Earl

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who is to reply for the Government will tell us that in spite of all the pressure of business His Majesty's Government will this year try to bring in a Bill to deal with it. This is a most appropriate year in which to try to remove this stigma from the Statute Book. If the Government determine to do it before December next—I do not ask it before May—they will have all the assistance that at least my friends and myself can give.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, both personally and on behalf of the Home Office I welcome this Motion, and at the outset I should like to associate myself with the tribute paid by the noble Marquess to the noble Lord who moved this Motion. I agree with the noble Marquess that your Lordships have been fortunate this afternoon to have the position explained lucidly and comprehensively by the noble Lord, Lord Arnold. I wish to say at once that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary fully recognises the importance of the subject to which the noble Lord has called attention, and he is anxious that the proposals of the Departmental Committee shall be the subject of discussion, so that he may have an opportunity of considering the views of all those who can contribute suggestions about the problems which the Committee was appointed to consider. No one can look at the statistics in the Annual Reports of the Prison Commissioners; showing that about 45 per cent. of the persons sent to prison each year are committed for failing to pay sums of money, without feeling that some steps ought to be taken to reduce the number of these imprisonments if it is practicable to do so without weakening the power of the courts of summary jurisdiction to enforce their orders.
The orders made by these courts for the payment of moneys fall into three classes. As we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, there are, first, orders for the payment of fines; secondly, wife maintenance and affiliation orders; and thirdly, warrants against persons who fail to pay rates. As regards fines, great improvement has been effected in the last twenty years as a result of the requirement that persons who cannot pay at once shall be given time for payment, unless there is some good reason to the contrary, and in recent years the number
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of persons sent to prison in default of fines is less than 3 per cent. of the total number of persons fined.
Your Lordships will know that of all the methods which are available to the courts of summary jurisdiction for dealing with offenders the imposition of fines is the method most frequently used. The great majority of offences dealt with in the courts of summary jurisdiction are minor offences and over three-quarters of the offenders are fined. The total number of fines imposed by these courts in a year is nearly half a million and over 97 per cent. of these fines are paid. Undoubtedly the knowledge that the alternative to payment is imprisonment is a potent factor in securing the payment of fines, and it is most important that no change shall be made which might hinder the courts in the use of this valuable method of dealing with minor offences.
But though the number of imprisonments in default of payment of fines is small compared with the number of fines imposed we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, that the number amounts to over 11,000 cases a year, and as the Departmental Committee point out, if it were possible to divide the persons fined into two classes, putting into one class all those who are well-to-do or of moderate means and into the other class the poor defendants, then it would no doubt be found that of the poor defendants the proportion sent to prison in default of payment is by no means negligible. How to deal with these poor persons who have committed some offence for which a penalty has to be imposed was the main problem before the Committee. Under the existing law courts are required in fixing the amount of a fine to take into consideration amongst other things the means of the offender so far as they are known to the court. The application of this principle often presents great difficulty. Apart from the difficulty which a court may find in assessing the capacity of the defendant to pay, the pressure of business at many courts makes it difficult to devote time to an examination of the circumstances of any particular offender; and though justices are no doubt anxious to adjust penalties as fairly as they can, it seems sometimes questionable whether sufficient weight is given to the extreme difficulty which a working man who perhaps has a family of four to support may experience

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in scraping together £3 or £4 for the payment of a fine.
In this connection the Departmental Committee call attention to the comparatively little use that appears to be made at many courts of the power of ordering fines to be paid by weekly instalments. Such a system gives substantial additional trouble to the clerk of the court and, as the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, has already pointed out, sometimes additional expense, and there is a not unnatural tendency to throw on the defendant the responsibility of putting some money by each week so that he can pay the lump sum at the end of the period allowed by the court. In practice, however, the difficulty which poor people often experience in saving money week by week with a view to the payment of a lump sum at the end of six or eight weeks is serious, and there would appear to be much force in the Committee's suggestion that the additional clerical labour involved in taking weekly payments at a court of summary jurisdiction ought not to be an obstacle to the use of this method of recovering fines.
When the question before a court is whether they should sentence an offender to imprisonment, justices are as a general rule most reluctant to impose such a sentence if any other course is open to them. When, however, a fine has been imposed and time is given for payment and a default occurs at the end of that period, the issue of a commitment warrant against the defaulter is an administrative and not a judicial act; and the existing law provides an inadequate opportunity for the justice or bench of justices to give specific consideration to the question whether the defaulter ought to be sent straightway to prison. If the defaulter fails—as is not infrequently the case—to make representation to the court, the justices whose duty it is to sign the commitment warrant may have no opportunity of knowing anything about the defaulter's circumstances. To avoid this risk of automatic commitment, the Departmental Committee propose that the law should be amended so as to empower courts to issue in the first instance warrants of arrest instead of warrants of commitment. In many cases the warrants of arrest will no doubt result—as commitment warrants often result—in the payment of the money. In other cases the defaulter will be brought
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again before the court so that the justices may have an opportunity of ascertaining the reasons for the default and considering whether the circumstances do or do not warrant an immediate commitment to prison.
As regards wife maintenance orders and affiliation orders, the number of persons sent to prison each year in England and Wales is about 6,000 and the Committee called attention to the extraordinary differences between the number of imprisonments in Scotland and the number of imprisonments in England and Wales. In 1932 only fifteen men were sent to prison in Scotland for failing to pay aliment as against 3,600 in England, and only 184 men were sent to prison in Scotland for failure to pay under affiliation orders as against 2,400 in England. The main difference between the Scottish and English law is that in Scotland the man's wages may be attached by arrestment in so far as they are not necessary for his own subsistence. In practice little use is made of this power which is at present in force in Scotland, but the very existence of the power is said to have a good and salutary effect. The Committee recommend that the English law shall be so altered as to empower the courts to make an order for attachment of wages if default occurs under a maintenance or affiliation order and the court think that attachment is the most suitable method of securing compliance with the order.
The Committee do not suggest that this procedure should be applied automatically to all wage earners. In many cases the threat either of imprisonment under the existing law or of attachment under the proposed amendment of the law will be sufficient to secure compliance. If however it becomes clear to the court that the man, despite warning, is not making a reasonable effort to meet his obligation, the Committee consider that the power of attaching his wages would often be a valuable addition to the existing powers of the court. Apart from this question of the power of attachment it would seem that the main cause for the difference between the Scottish and English figures must be found in the greater reluctance of the Scottish courts to commit a defaulter to prison unless they are well satisfied that his default is wilful.

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Under the English law the court have discretion when default occurs to decide whether they will or will not commit the defaulter to prison, and in practice no doubt Justices try not to send a man to prison unless they are satisfied that he could, had he made greater effort, have done more than he has done to comply with the order. But there appears to be a tendency for some courts to take the view that if a man has failed to pay the sum which at the original adjudication the court decided he ought to pay he must go to prison unless there is a clear case for excusing him. The Committee accordingly suggest that the law should be amended so as to impose on the courts a definite obligation to make inquiry as to a defaulter's circumstances, and not to commit him to prison unless they are satisfied that his failure to pay is due to wilful refusal or culpable neglect. They also suggest various amendments of the law to facilitate dealing with the cases where a man's resources and circumstances vary from time to time, and with the cases in which the parties move away from the area of the court which has made the order to distant places.
As regards rate defaulters, the number of imprisonments in England and Wales, as your Lordships have heard, is about 3,000 a year. In Scotland on the other hand the number of imprisonments in 1932 was only 8. Again the main difference between the Scottish and English law seems to be that under the Scottish rating system there are greater facilities for enabling a weekly tenant to pay his rates as part of his weekly rent. As your Lordships are aware, the general question of rating law is a complex and difficult subject which raises many problems, but from the point of view from which the Committee were appointed to consider this matter the system by which weekly tenants can pay their rates as part of their weekly rent has obviously many advantages. As the Committee pointed out, all the financial arrangements of the weekly wage earner are on a weekly basis. The Committee, in the Report, state:
"The rent is paid because it is collected weekly; and a weekly sum may be set aside for the rates. The more careful or more fortunate families may manage to keep these weekly savings intact. In other households some exceptional expenditure … leads to a depletion of the store,
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and when the rate falls due, there are no means to meet it."
Apart however from this difficult problem of allocating the responsibility as between the landlord and tenant, there is, as the Committee's Report shows, considerable variation in the manlier in which the existing law is administered in different districts in England and Wales. In some areas the number of imprisonments is high and in others it is low, although there appear to be no circumstances to account for these differences, except the methods adopted by the rating authorities in enforcing the law.
The difficulties experienced by justices in administering conscientiously the existing law are very great indeed. Very large numbers of people neglect to pay their rates until process is applied for, and commitment warrants are consequently regarded rather as final demands for payment than as orders which may result in actual imprisonment. In the great majority of cases the issue of the warrant results in payment, and to sift out of the very numerous defaulters those whose circumstances deserve consideration is almost impracticable under the existing procedure. The Committee accordingly recommend that to get over this difficulty the justices should be empowered, instead of issuing commitment warrants to issue warrants of arrest. In the great majority of cases these warrants of arrest will have the same effect as a commitment warrant—namely, the payment of the money. In the remaining cases the system will ensure that the defaulter appears before the justices and they will thus have an opportunity of considering whether there are circumstances which justify the exercise of their power to remit the rate or to give the defaulter further time, or whether the case is one which warrants imprisonment.
So far as the Committee's Report involves amendment of the law their proposal have been noted for careful and sympathetic consideration when an opportunity for legislation arises, and it will be borne in mind by the Department I represent that your Lordships' House has very emphatically stated this afternoon that legislation should ensue as soon as possible. In the meantime, however, there are certain matters in the Report to which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary thinks it may be useful

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to call the attention of justices. No doubt many justices have obtained copies of the Report and have made themselves familiar with the considerations to which the Committee call attention, but in order that the main point affecting procedure under the existing law may be brought to the notice of all the courts the Home Secretary is considering the issue of a general circular to justices, so that pending the question of legislation there may be no delay whatsoever in bringing to the notice of all courts of summary jurisdiction suggestions and considerations which may tend to reduce the number of imprisonments and may assist courts to confine the use of this extreme measure to cases where it is unavoidable if the authority of the courts is to be properly upheld. I hope, my Lords, that having traversed much of the ground that was so ably covered by the mover of the Resolution, I have not unduly wearied your Lordships. It is a matter which will be thoroughly considered and carefully appreciated by the justices of the peace throughout the country, and I hope the debate in this House will have some good effect in that respect.
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, in concluding the debate I would like first to be allowed to thank the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, and other noble Lords, for the way in which they received my Motion, and for the kind words that they have uttered. I appreciate them very much. With regard to the Motion, I am hopeful that some good will result. The noble Earl who speaks for the Government has given a sympathetic reply, and I hope that that is the beginning of something which will have a practical issue. He has pointed out that there are certain matters in the Report which could in effect be implemented now without legislation. The first suggestion which I wish to urge upon the Government is that that should be done. As a matter of fact, if you go through the recommendations of the Report, you will see that something like half could be implemented by administrative action, and therefore no Parliamentary time would be necessary.
The second proposal is that the noble Earl should urge the Home Secretary to give most careful and sympathetic consideration to the speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Merrivale, who pointed out that you could implement a
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good deal of what is needed by a one-clause Bill. That is a very modest request. The noble and learned Lord, with his great experience and great position, has put that suggestion forward and, speaking with some experience of your Lordships' House, it is difficult for me to recall an occasion on which there has been greater unanimity. Indeed, there has been absolute unanimity. There has been no criticism of the Report whatever. I am not saying that there never would be any criticism of any of it, but the fact remains that in this long debate there has been no criticism. I can assure the noble Lord that if he could persuade his noble friend to introduce such a Bill, it could be passed without difficulty.
I would suggest that the Bill be introduced in your Lordships' House. I do not think your Lordships would claim to be overworked at present, and I would like to ask the noble Marquess who is leading the House to-day (Lord Londonderry) if he would give favourable consideration to the proposal and bring it forward. If that Bill were passed through your Lordships' House, as it undoubtedly could be without the slightest difficulty, there is no doubt whatever that it would pass through another place, and something of great advantage would be achieved.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl if he would consider whether the circular, which he says will be sent round by the Home Secretary to the justices, could be sent to each justice individually. At present I think the practice is for these circulars to go to the justices' clerks, and they do not always reach the justices. I hope the noble Earl will ask the Home Secretary to consider that point. As regards the general debate, I must say, with my noble friend Lord Arnold, that I have never heard such enthusiastic unanimity in your Lordships' House before, and I hope that that will impress the Government, because "careful and sympathetic consideration" is one of those various Ministerial phrases that we know so well, and which mean so little. "Favourable consideration," which the Minister of Transport uses, is rather a better and stronger phrase; I should have liked to hear that. But really, there is no reason whatever why a short Bill should not be intro-

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duced in your Lordships' House in the next two weeks, when we have very little to do and it would pass through another place without any difficulty whatever. I hope the noble Earl, who has given us such a very full treatise on the whole case, will impress the Home Secretary with what he has heard in your Lordships' House to-day.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I do not know if the noble Earl would consider whether the circular referred to could be issued as a White Paper? If it were issued as a White Paper, it would obtain publicity much better than by sending it to the justices' clerks.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord opposite, it
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is the general practice that circulars to courts of summary jurisdiction are sent to the clerks of the courts, and it is true that in certain circumstances, such circulars do not reach the individual magistrates. I shall be very pleased to lay the suggestions—the suggestion of the noble Lord opposite and of the noble and learned Lord behind me—before the Home Secretary.
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before six o'clock.

MARLOW WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the five Lords appointed a Select Committee on the Norwich Electric Tramways Bill [H.L.], and other Bills do form the Select Committee for the consideration of the Marlow Water Bill [H.L.]: Read, and agreed to. All Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bill.

SOUTH SUBURBAN GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

WEST DEVON ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1934.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order; that they have considered a Special Report by the Electricity Commissioners under Section 1 of the Electric Lighting Act, 1888, dispensing with the consent of the Bideford Rural District Council; and that there is nothing in this Order to which they think
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it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

FALMOUTH GAS ORDER, 1935.
  WIMBLEDON ELECTRICITY (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1935.

    ANDOVER GAS ORDER, 1935.
    PONTYPOOL GAS ORDER, 1935.
    Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LEICESTER AND WARWICK) BILL.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (CUMBERLAND AND LANCASTER) BILL.

    MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (GLOUCESTER AND WARWICK) BILL.
    MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HOLLAND AND KESTEVEN) BILL.
    MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HOLLAND AND LINDSEY) BILL.
    Reported, without amendment, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House.