Sitting of 7 February 1935

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have appointed a Committee of six members to join with the Committee appointed by this House, as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of Tuesday last, to consider all Consolidation Bills of the present Session.
A Message ordered to be sent to the House of Commons to propose that the Joint Committee do meet in Committee Room A on Tuesday next, at half-past eleven o'clock.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move that Lord Stanmore be appointed to take the Chair in the Committee of the Whole House this day, in the absence of the Chairman of Committees.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

FOLKESTONE AND DISTRICT ELEC TRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
FRIMLEY AND FARNBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
NORWICH ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
SEVERN NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
SHARPNESS DOCKS AND GLOU CESTER AND BIRMINGHAM NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
STOURBRIDGE NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
EDINBURGH CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS, &c.) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Considered on Report (according to Order).

EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL): My Lords, it is my duty to present to you for Second Reading the Educational Endowments (Scotland) Bill. It may be for the convenience of your Lordships if, in the first place, I give a brief history of the Endowments Commission. In April, 1927, a Departmental Committee on Educational Endowments was appointed to consider the position as regards the administration and application of educational endowments in Scotland. The Chairman of the Committee was Lord Mackenzie. The Committee recommended the setting up of an Executive Commission to deal with those endowments and in 1928 Parliament accepted that recommendation when the Educational Endowments (Scotland) Act of that year was passed. Under that Act the Commission were given powers to reorganise the Scottish educational endowments, the powers of the Commissioners expiring on December 31, 1931, unless Parliament decided to continue them. In 1931 an Act was passed continuing the powers of the Commissioners for a further three years, that is, until December 31 of last year. We have now before us a Bill in which it is proposed to continue the life of the Commission until December 31, 1936.
But I would draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that the purpose of the Bill now before us is not simply to extend the life of the Commission. It goes much further than that. It proposes that the powers of the Commissioners shall be altered in certain ways, and that the powers of the Scottish Education Department, in relation to the approval of schemes prepared by the
848
Commissioners, shall be extended and strengthened. I draw particular attention to those parts of the Bill—Clauses 2 to 6—which alter the powers of the Commissioners and of the Department. As your Lordships are aware, there has been considerable comment in Scotland as to the way in which the Commissioners have used their powers. The noble Earl, Lord Leven and Melville—who has been good enough to write and inform me that but for a public engagement he would have been here and would have addressed your Lordships this afternoon—and other noble Lords called attention to this matter during the course of a very interesting discussion in this House on 16th May last. The Government feel that much of the criticism of the work of the Commission has been based on a misunderstanding of the real philosophy of endowments and they are satisfied that the Commissioners have done very valuable work during the last six years. Nevertheless, they think that some alteration of the procedure may now be made. Guided by the views expressed in this House, and by various other representations made on the matter, the Government introduced this Bill in another place, where, during consideration by the Scottish Grand Committee, further Amendments were suggested and accepted. We now have therefore before us a Bill which we think meets legitimate criticism, which has commended itself to the Scottish members sitting in another place, and which will, I hope, commend itself also to your Lordships.
I need not say much about the proposal to extend the powers of the Commissioners for a further two years. The Commissioners have been faced with a very large task. They have to review some 1,500 separate endowments, and the six years during which they have been performing their duties has not given them sufficient time to complete their task. The Endowments Commission of 1882 took seven years to review less than 1,000 endowments. Obviously, when two-thirds of the endowments have been modernised, it is undesirable that the remaining one-third should be left under their existing governing instruments, many of which are out of harmony with modern educational developments. Accordingly, I think it will be agreed

849
that an extension of the powers of the Commissioners for two years is necessary.
I turn now to the proposals for the amendment of the powers of the Commissioners and of the Department. I may perhaps mention that the Commissioners frame schemes, but that those schemes cannot become operative until they have been approved by the Department and confirmed by His Majesty by Order-in-Council. Three main criticisms have been made against the existing provisions governing the production of endowment schemes: First, that the Commissioners are not bound to respect the wishes of testators; secondly, that the Department have not sufficient power to disapprove or to amend a proposed scheme that is not acceptable; thirdly, that the Commissioners have not paid sufficient regard to the need for continuing the provision from endowments of competitive bursaries. If your Lordships will look at the Bill now before us, I think that you will find that provisions have been inserted to meet all these criticisms.
I will deal first with the difficult problem of respecting the wishes of a testator. It has been suggested that the Bill should provide that any scheme made by the Commissioners should carry out the intentions of the testator unless that is an impossibility. The Government do not think that it is desirable or possible to insert, in a Bill a provision to this effect. In a number of cases pious donors who made their bequests many years ago, left money for the encouragement of branches of education that were then outside the provision made at the public expense. Those objects may now be adequately covered by the State provision, but it would still be possible to devote endowment money to them, even though the expenditure of the money in that way would merely result in a relief of the rates and not in the provision of additional benefit for the children concerned. Obviously, then, any instruction given to the Commissioners must be sufficiently elastic to allow them to divert endowment money to other objects when that course is desirable.
The instruction on this matter contained in the Act of 1928 is that the Commissioners shall have special regard to the spirit of the intention of the founder.
850
This general direction has, I understand, been scrutinised again and again by legal and by lay minds, and in the result it has been found impossible to strengthen it without taking away from the Commissioners that discretion that it is essential they should have. Some other way had, therefore, to be found for securing that every respect was given to the spirit of the testator's wishes—or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that some other way had to be found of reassuring interested parties and public opinion that this had been done. If your Lordships will look at Clause 4 of the Bill you will see there a provision that will go a long way to meet this point. It is proposed that in future the Commissioners shall be required to prefix to each scheme issued by them a statement showing the reasons why they have reorganised the endowments concerned, the respects in which the new scheme differs from the old governing instruments and the reasons for any such differences of provision.
This, I think, is a real improvement on the machinery provided by the Act of 1928. From the time when a draft scheme is issued by the Commissioners, all interested parties will be aware, without searching through the old and new schemes, what changes have been made and what are the reasons for those changes. Any change of testators' directions will be immediately apparent, and, what is perhaps more important, the Commissioners' reasons for those changes will be publicly stated. Much of the criticism of the past has been aroused because facts that have influenced the Commissioners have not been available to the public. But under the new provision if an interested party, after consideration of the Commissioners' reasons, is not satisfied with a proposed scheme, he can appeal to the Department for an amendment of it with a full knowledge of the reasons that have influenced the making of the scheme. If the Department do not amend the scheme to his satisfaction he can ask that the scheme shall be brought before Parliament for further consideration. This clause was added to the Bill as the result of consultation between the Government and representatives of objectors to the Bill. As I said, I think that it provides a real improvement, and I hope that your Lordships will agree that this addition goes

851
as far as it is possible to go to meet criticism on this matter.
I should now like to touch briefly on the amendments proposed to meet the other two points of criticism. First, as to the powers of the Department. At present the Department can approve a scheme, or, if they think fit, they can remit the scheme to the Commissioners for amendment. If the scheme is remitted the Commissioners may, if they think fit, amend the scheme to conform to the remit, or they may amend the scheme in another way, or they may simply leave the scheme to die for want of action on their part. Your Lordships will note that the Department now have only two powers—those of approval and of remit. They have no power to disapprove a scheme or to amend it at their own hand. Either of these courses may be in the public interest, but under the present Statute neither of them can be put in force. During the past year or so it has become apparent that both these powers are wanted, and provision is now made accordingly. Certain safeguards as to the use of the powers are included in the Bill, but I need not spend time in elaborating these.
Lastly, we have the criticism that sufficient attention has not been paid to the needs of competitive bursaries. In this matter I think that your Lordships will be interested in certain summary figures which I will give. The amount of money previously devoted to bursaries, included in endowments already dealt with by the Commissioners, is about £109,000. In the new schemes made by the Commissioners for the same endowments, £94,800 must be devoted to bursaries, £12,500 may be devoted to bursaries and £1,980 has been diverted to other purposes. This is a total compulsory diversion of about 2 per cent., which, I think your Lordships will agree, is very small indeed, especially when account is taken of the difference in the present day state of the provision for higher education and rate bursaries as compared with, say, fifteen or twenty years ago. But in order to remove any possible criticism on this score the Government have inserted in Clause 2 of the Bill a provision that will secure that the Commissioners shall have special regard to the need for continuing the provision of competitive bursaries at
852
Universities and other educational institutions of a similar character.
I have tried to show that in the Bill now before you the Government have endeavoured to meet the criticisms that have been voiced during the last six years, while at the same time adhering to the general principles which must govern any reasonable treatment of endowments. The Bill was very carefully considered by the Scottish members in another place and it was accepted as a measure that was desirable and acceptable. I trust that it will similarly commend itself to your Lordships, and that you will now give the Bill a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
THE EARL OF AIRLIE: My Lords, I think it would be but courteous if I said one or two words on the Motion for the Second Reading of this Bill, seeing that I was one of the members of your Lordships' House who intervened in the debate when this matter came before your Lordships some months ago. The noble Earl, Lord Leven and Melville, who initiated that debate, has asked me to apologise for his absence; he is unavoidably prevented from being here to-day owing to important county council business in the North.
As representing in a small way the interests of Angus, I feel bound to say that we are considerably disappointed that it has not even yet been found possible to include in this Bill amongst the other bursaries one which is so vital to us in our endowment scheme, the secondary school bursary. I should like, however, to take this opportunity of expressing our very deep gratitude to the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland for all the trouble he has taken and the courtesy he has shown in endeavouring to understand our point of view in regard to this matter and to see if by any means he could meet us. Notwithstanding this courtesy, however, I am afraid that we are still to remain disappointed. Without unduly wearying your Lordships I should like to reiterate most strongly that we feel that the Department concerned is making a great mistake in this matter, and we still consider that it is definitely going against the wishes of those deceased persons who left moneys

853
for specific purposes, and purposes which, in the opinion of those who from local experience are fully qualified to know, are still of vital interest to the locality in which we live. I go further, although this is a personal opinion and therefore worth very little. There are people who agree with me that if the matter went to a court of law it is entirely doubtful whether the law would sustain our opinion or that of His Majesty's Government. However, that is neither here nor there.
Looking at the matter broadly, since this question was raised in your Lordships' House a few months ago there have been many meetings and many discussions all over the country and in another place here in London. Out of those discussions there have arisen certain helpful Amendments and alterations of this Bill, and also two aspects of the case which, though far from exactly satisfying us, yet have led us to believe that we can still hope for some little comfort. The first is that during the course of a conversation which was of a private nature and entirely unofficial, which took place when I was discussing this point with the noble Earl the Chairman of that Commission, I gathered from him that he thought that the discussions which had taken place, and more especially that which took place in your Lordships' House, had been of immense advantage, and that they would go far towards making the duty of that Commission considerably easier in the future; and he felt that possibly in our fresh deliberations in the future the meetings would be less of examinations but rather would take the form more of round-table conferences. In fact I am given to understand that since that original debate in your Lordships' House there has already been a case where the Commissioners who were meeting the parties interested in this question, actually got together with them round the table, threshed out the matter and were able to come to a decision which was satisfactory, or more or less satisfactory, to both parties. Undoubtedly that is all to the good.
The second aspect which gives us some little comfort is that from the discussions which I have had with the Scottish Office I believe I have not been wrong in
854
emphasising, as the noble Earl has already done, the point that the findings of the Commission are not final, that they are not the last word, but that their decisions have to be ratified and confirmed by the Scottish Office. Each case will be fully considered on its merits before a final decision is given. As I have said before, these two aspects have given us some comfort and, although far from feeling that we are getting what we think we really ought to get, or that we are by any means retiring from what might be called a feast with full bellies, yet some of the pangs of hunger may be appeased. In that case I wish to associate myself with the Second Reading of the Bill, reserving to myself the right to put down or vote for any Amendments that it may seem necessary to put down.
LORD ALNESS: My Lords, there are two reasons why I venture to address a few observations to your Lordships' House on the Second Reading of this Bill. The first is that the Bill is regarded in Scotland as a measure of considerable consequence, and the second is that, having had the privilege for six years of being the head of the Scottish Education Department, one could not fail to acquire a certain amount of knowledge of, and also to take a definite interest in the problems with which this Bill deals. Now, when a Second Reading is invited of this measure, I apprehend that two questions arise. The first is whether the lifetime of the Commissioners should be extended; and the second, if the life, time of the Commissioners is to be extended, is whether this Bill contains within its four corners the safeguards and improvements which the experience of the work of the Commissioners has urgently dictated. I apprehend that, if either of those questions should be answered in the negative, your Lordships might be disposed to deny a Second Reading to the Bill. But, with regard to the first of those questions—whether the lifetime of the Commissioners should be extended—I venture to think that it admits of only one answer.
The principle of reviewing endowments set apart for specific purposes is, despite what the noble Lord has said, I am afraid, too deeply embedded both in England and in Scotland to be lightly interfered with to-day. That principle

855
was solemnly affirmed in 1928, when this Commission was set up, and it was reaffirmed in 1931, when the Commission had its life extended for three years more. Accordingly the principle, whether one may like it or not, that these endowments should be reviewed from time to time, is one which is sanctioned by educational history on both sides of the Border. And when one is further told, as we are told, that the Commission has only accomplished two-thirds of its work, leaving one-third still to be done, then I think that to compel it to prætermit its activities at a time when its work is incomplete, and when it has acquired a knowledge and experience in these matters which are unrivalled, would be folly, and worse than folly. The manœuvre of swopping horses when crossing a stream is regarded, at least on the other side of the Border, as dubious and undesirable.
A further question arises, however,—namely, whether the lessons of experience, which suggest that the powers and duties of the Commissioners should be revised, have been given effect to in this Bill. I humbly venture to think that they have. What does the Bill do? The noble Lord who moved the Second Reading indicated some of the alterations which it makes. I will just mention, passing them rapidly by, the five alterations which it seems to me are all to be found within the four corners of the Bill. The first is one to which the noble Lord referred. The Commission is directed to have special regard to the need of continuing the provision from endowments of competitive bursaries in the Universities and other Scottish educational institutions. There has been an impression on the other side of the Border that the Commission has not in the past sufficiently adverted to this particular part of its duty, and, if that be so, then this definite statutory injunction will ensure that it shall receive sufficient attention in future, and I do not doubt that the members of the Commission will loyally carry out their duty in this matter.
A second alteration is that the Commissioners are now denied the power of interfering, by way of review, with any endowments which have not been in existence for more than twenty years, except in so far as they have already been
856
dealt with. That seems to be so reasonable a proposal as to require no stressing on my part. Then comes the third alteration, to which the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading also referred. It is a most vital alteration in my judgment—namely, that the Commissioners are to prefix to any new scheme which they promulgate a memorandum or statement, showing the alterations which they propose upon the endowment, and their reasons for the alterations. My Lords, it has been thought in Scotland that the Commission has not always directed its mind to its statutory duty in this matter. This new provision will, first, ensure that they shall do so, and, secondly, will avoid any public impression that they have not done so; and, most valuable of all, the Commissioners will take the country into their confidence and indicate to the public at large the grounds upon which the Commission's policy is based.
Then follow the last two alterations. The Department has for the first time conferred upon it power to disapprove of any of the Commission's schemes, and to initiate amending schemes of its own. These are new powers, and in my opinion valuable powers. Accordingly the old statutory game of battledore and shuttlecock will disappear into limbo. Instead, the Department, if that course should seem proper, will have an opportunity of disapproving of a scheme; or again, if that course should seem proper, they will have an opportunity of proposing an amending scheme of their own. There is no doubt that these powers and duties which are found in the Bill constitute an implied abridgement of the powers of the Commission, and an express enlargement of the powers of the Department. And if any critic whispers in my ear the word "bureaucracy," my answer would be that he should remember that the Secretary of State for Scotland, as Vice-President of the Board of Education, is responsible for the work of the Scottish Education Department upon the floor of the other House. Accordingly the Bill, both by reason of the terms in which it was introduced, and by reason of the Amendments accepted in Committee, is a very great improvement upon its predecessor.
It must not be for a moment supposed that the changes introduced in this

857
measure constitute in any way censure of the Commission or of the Commission's work. It is intended, I believe, not to impede that work but to aid in its performance. I am well aware that there has been in certain parts of Scotland an amount of irritation, and in some quarters indignation, with the work of the Commission. That is not surprising. A moment's reflection will show to any one that the work with which the Commission is concerned is not only thankless but even provocative in its character, and if it had accomplished its work in an atmosphere of serenity and peace and good will, I for one should have taken leave to doubt whether it had been performing its job properly. At any rate, there can be no doubt that much of the criticism which has been passed on the Commission is uninformed, and much of it is unfounded. Parliament set up this Commission, conferring upon it enormous powers, and it seems to me that it would have been much more fair and much more just that some at least of the criticisms which have been levelled against the Commission should have been levelled against Parliament which conferred these powers, rather than against the Parliamentary instrument which was created for carrying out these powers.
I think the worst that can be said with regard to the Commission is that on occasion it has used its powers to the utmost limit. I venture very respectfully to doubt the wisdom of that policy, and I venture very respectfully to suggest to the Commission in the future that that policy might well be reconsidered. But it would be ungracious to part from any consideration of the work of the Commission without expressing, as I venture to do, the highest admiration for the care and the time and the skill which its members have, without fee or reward, bestowed upon an important and a difficult task, and also without, as I also do, wishing them well in the work that still lies to their hand.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: My Lords, as one who, a very new corner to your Lordships' House, spoke when the previous Bill was before the House and spoke in rather strong opposition to it, I feel that I should be wrong if did not say a few words to express my thanks to the Government
858
and to those responsible for the very great improvement that has been effected in this Bill. It has already been suggested that it may not be perfect in the eyes of a Scotsman, but it is an enormous improvement, and for that we should be truly grateful. There is no question that the debate in this House last May was really useful, and, although all the improvements that we could have wished are not embodied in the Bill, yet we are willing to accept it now, and to wish the Commission every success in what we hope will be a smoother path during the duration of its existence for another two years.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I do not rise to impose another speech on your Lordships, but it is not every day that your Lordships have the advantage of enjoying a maiden speech from, one who, although a new arrival in your Lordships' House, has been in the past Lord Advocate for Scotland, Secretary for Scotland before the right of Scotland to have a Secretary of State was recognised, and subsequently, Lord Justice Clerk; and I am sure that I shall be doing my duty and what all your Lordships would wish me to do, and what the Leader of the House, if he had not been detained on a very important Committee, would also have done, if I offer the congratulations of your Lordships to the noble Lord, Lord Alness, on his first speech in this House. I am sure it is the hope of all your Lordships that we should hear his voice often in this House, no matter whether it is on occasions which are entirely Scottish or on other occasions which concern the rest of the country. I am also grateful for the speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Airlie and Lord Aberdeen. The noble Earl, Lord Airlie, showed a certain amount of perturbation about the provisions of the Bill, but I am sure that he, like the rest of us, recognises the urgency of getting this measure through as soon as possible and allowing the Commissioners to resume their work. I am hopeful therefore that your Lordships will be willing to get the Bill passed at the earliest possible moment.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[Lord STANMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Arrangements between Central Electricity Board and authorised undertakers.
1.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1926, the Central Electricity Board shall have power and shall be deemed always to have had power under that, Act by agreement with any authorised undertakers who are the owners of or control a generating station which is not a selected station to enter into arrangements with them for regulating the manner, in which and the purposes for which the station is to be operated and maintained or for securing that the station shall cease to be used as a generating station, and where arrangements are so entered into as aforesaid, the arrangements may provide—

(a) for the supply of electricity—

(i) to the Board by the undertakers;

(ii) to the undertakers by the Board;

(b) for the making of payments, of such amounts as may he agreed, to the Board by undertakers, and to the undertakers by the Broad, in respect of the matters provided for by the arrangements;

(c) for any purpose incidental to the purposes aforesaid:

Provided that after the passing of this Act the Board shall not enter into any such arrangements except with the consent of the Electricity Commissioners, and the Commissioners shall not give their consent unless—

(a) they are satisfied that the arrangements will not result in a financial loss to the Board; and

(b) after giving to any authorised undertakers who are under contract to supply electricity to, or to take a supply of electricity from, the owners of the generating station in question, an opportunity of making representations with respect to the matter, they are satisfied that the arrangements will not result in any substantial prejudice to any such authorised undertakers.

LORD MOUNT TEMPLE LORD MOUNT TEMPLE moved, in the proviso in subsection (1), after "Electricity Commissioners," to insert "and for such period as the Commissioners may approve." The noble Lord said: Since I placed on the Paper the
860
series of Amendments which appear in my name consultations have taken place between the Government and the Central Electricity Board and those interested in the industry, with a view to seeing whether some agreed compromise could not be reached, and I am happy to inform your Lordships that it will not be necessary for me, as I apprehend, to move more than the first Amendment as a token Amendment, because the agreement which has been arrived at will obviate the necessity of moving these Amendments. I think I had better simply formally move the first Amendment and then await the answer which the noble Earl, Lord Munster, will give. If it is as satisfactory as I hope it will be, I shall then ask leave to withdraw that Amendment and shall not move any of the others. I beg to move
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 15, after ("Commissioners") insert ("and for such period as the Commissioners may approve").—(Lord Mount Temple.)
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I am obliged to my noble friend for giving me an opportunity to make a general statement on the position which has arisen upon this Bill. The Amendments which stand on the Paper fall into two groups. The first are detailed Amendments relating to the provisions of the Bill, all of which, together with those standing in the name of Lord Gainford, have appeared in substance at one or other stage of this Bill in another place or the Bill of last Session, and the majority of which were withdrawn or have already been rejected by your Lordships, and also in another place for reasons which, if necessary, I shall again be prepared to give. In the second group are certain new clauses which seek to make specific alterations of the provisions of the 1926 Act. In the view of the Government these clauses are outside the scope of this Bill, and in any case could not be accepted.
I understand, however, that since the noble Lord tabled these Amendments the Incorporated Association of Electric Power Companies, on whose behalf they have been prepared, have sought an interview with the Central Electricity Board, and the Board have reason to believe that the Association are now satisfied that all their legitimate objections are sufficiently

861
met by the Amendments which have already been accepted by the Government and by the assurance previously given by the Board to the National Consultative Committee, set up under Section 3 of the 1926 Act, that they would discuss with them the procedure to be adopted for ensuring full co-operation between the Board and the owners of selected stations in the negotiations for a railway traction supply. At the same interview the Association stressed their anxiety to obtain the Amendments to the 1926 Act represented by the new clauses in the second group.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Will the noble Earl say to which group he refers?
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I referred to them right at the beginning. It is the group by which it is sought to amend the 1926 Act. But perhaps I had better finish my statement. It was stated in the Committee stage in the House of Commons that the Board realised the nature of the problem sought to be dealt with by these Amendments and were endeavouring to find a solution. That statement the Board agree to be correct. In fact, for over twelve months the problem has been under discussion between them and one of their district consultative committees; and, further, the findings of that committee have been referred to the National Consultative Committee for their consideration. At the interview the Board informed the Power Companies' Association of these facts and that in their view the problem could not be solved on the lines suggested by the Association, but that they were actively and without delay pursuing the investigation into it which their National Consultative Committee, representative of the whole industry, municipal undertakings as well as power companies, had at their request already undertaken. By that means the Board hoped that all the interests concerned could agree to a solution of the difficulty. I am obliged, as I said, to my noble friend for letting me make this statement, and I presume as a result of it my noble friend Lord Mount Temple and my noble friend Lord Gainford will not on this occasion desire to move the Amendments which stand in their names.
LORD GAINFORD: May I say that as this arrangement has been made by the Incorporated Association of Electric
862
Power Companies with the Central Electricity Board I am not proposing to move my Amendments. While, of course, I should have preferred personally that statutory effect should be given to the substance of my Amendments, having regard to this arrangement which has been made behind the scenes I am quite satisfied to leave it at that and to rely on the undertakings working out satisfactorily. Therefore, although I came down to the House prepared to support the Amendments of the noble Lord who has moved this Amendment, and to move my own Amendments, I do not propose now to move, and I think the noble Lord would be well advised not to press his Amendment.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: May I thank the noble Earl very sincerely for his clear and conciliatory statement? It is quite obvious that those for whom I have the honour to speak have not got all they would like to get—naturally not—but the Government have advanced substantially towards a solution of the injustice which I think those for whom I speak would suffer if the declaration had not been made. In two respects the noble Earl has made a distinct advance on behalf of the Government. In respect of the new clauses it appears from what he has said that the Central Electricity Board and the Government do realise the real grievances of the industry. I am glad that they are going to deal with them in the way the noble Earl has outlined. On the important question of railway electrification the promise to consult with all the selected stations will largely remove the fear which has existed, and I think rightly existed, that the Central Electricity Board wanted to cut the distributors out of the business.
Without putting that in legal phraseology in an Act of Parliament, I think the declaration made by the noble Earl on behalf of the Government will, in effect and in practice, safeguard the interests of the distributors. I would add this, that I think the negotiations which have been conducted on behalf of the Government by the Board and on behalf of the industry by various associations, show that a great deal more can be done by talking things over quietly and sensibly than by fighting things out on the floor of your Lordships' House. I am very glad that

863
the negotiations have been so successful, and in view of that I would ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the First Report from the Select Committee.
The Committee reported as follows:—
1. RESIGNATION AND APPOINTMENT.
The Clerk of the Parliaments informed the Committee of the resignation of the Earl of Antrim from the Parliament Office and the appointment in his place of Mr. David Stephens, this appointment to date from January 1, 1935.
2. ASSISTANT TO EDITOR OF HOUSE OF LORDS DEBATES.
The Committee sanctioned an increase of £50 on the basic salary of Mr. Alfred Walter, Assistant to the Editor of the House of Lords Debates from April 1, 1935. This increase will bring his salary to the same level as that of the six Reporters.
3. REPAIRS TO PALACE OF WESTMINSTER.
The Lord Great Chamberlain informed the Committee of the proposals of the Office of Works in connection with the repairs to the West Front of the Palace of Westminster and of the consequent re-allocation of accommodation.
4. HOUSE ALLOWANCE TO RESIDENT SUPERINTENDENT.
The Committee sanctioned a house allowance at the rate of £250 per annum to the Resident Superintendent during such time as he is obliged to vacate his official residence in consequence of the repairs to the building.
5. ESTIMATE.
The Estimate for the House of Lords Offices was laid before the Committee by the Clerk of the Parliaments and approved.
6. SUB-COMMITTEES.
1. Refreshment Department. The following Lords with the Lord Great Chamberlain and the Clerk of the Parliaments were named of the Sub-Committee:
The Earl of Lucan, the Lord Stanmore, the Lord Atkin, the Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.
2. Library. The following Lords with the Clerk of the Parliaments were named of the Sub-Committee:
The Marquess of Crewe, the Earl of Ilchester, the Lord Wigan (E. Crawford), the Lord Hylton, the Lord Colebrooke, the Lord Ernle, the Lord Darling, the Lord Macmillan, the Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.
3. Parliament Office Messengers. The Sub-Committee appointed on November 13, 1934, was re-appointed as follows:
The Chairman of Committees, the Earl Stanhope, the Lord Stanmore and the Lord Marley, with the Clerk of the Parliaments.
4. Printing of Amendments. The Sub-Committee appointed on November 13, 1934, was re-appointed as follows:
The Chairman of Committees, the Earl of Lucan, the Viscount Ullswater, the Lord Stanmore, and the Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, with the Clerk of the Parliaments and the Clerk of Public Bills.
LORD STANMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that the First Report from the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices be now considered and adopted.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at six minutes past five o'clock.

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
Regimental Charitable Funds [H.L.].
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL.
Petition of the Middlesex County Council under their Common Seal for leave to introduce a Bill to empower the Middlesex County Council to acquire lands in the City of Westminster for an extension or their Guildhall and the provision of further county offices; and for other purposes; together with a copy of the proposed Bill annexed thereto:
Read, and referred to the Examiners.

WEYMOUTH WATERWORKS.
Petition of the Company of Proprietors of the Weymouth Waterworks under their Common Seal praying for leave to introduce a Bill to extend the limits of supply of the Company of Proprietors of the Weymouth Waterworks; to authorise the
866
construction of new waterworks; to enlarge the capital and borrowing powers of the Company; to confer further powers upon the Company; and for other purposes; together with a copy of the proposed Bill annexed thereto:
Read, and referred to the Examiners.

FRIMLEY AND FARNBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
NORWICH ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
SEVERN NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

FOLKESTONE AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY BILL. H.L.
SHARPNESS DOCKS AND GLOUCESTER AND BIRMINGHAM NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
STOURBRIDGE NAVIGATION BILL.[H.L.]
Committed.

PONTYPOOL GAS ORDER, 1935.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Pontypool Gas and Water Order:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.