Sitting of 10 December 1935

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

ELECTION EXPENSES.
Address for:
"Return of the Expenses of each Candidate at the General Election of November, 1935, in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as declared to the returning officers pursuant to the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, and of the number of votes polled by each candidate, the number of polling districts and stations, the number of electors, and the number of absent voters (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 109, of Session 1931–32)."—[Mr. Lloyd.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  BECHUANALAND AND BASUTOLAND.
  Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what action is being taken or is contemplated in connection with the recent reports on Bechuanaland and Basutoland?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. Douglas Hacking): Funds have been provided either from the Colonial Development Fund or from general revenue for the proposals relating to the economic development of the Bechuanaland Protectorate recommended in Sir Alan Pim's report. In the case of Basutoland, approval has been given for the provision of assistance from the Colonial Development Fund for the proposals in the report relating to an ecological survey, the improvement of livestock and the provision of wool classing sheds. The advisory committee have also agreed in principle to recommend assistance in respect of the scheme for dealing with erosion. The details of this scheme, and other matters referred to in the report, are still under consideration.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether anything has been done in respect of Swaziland?
  Mr. HACKING: I do not think that arises out of this question.

  NEWFOUNDLAND.
  Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any and what action has been taken as regards that part of the Newfoundland report which recommended the taxation of land values as the means of breaking up the large undeveloped concessions and providing small ownership?
  Mr. HACKING: The question of the development of the forest resources of Newfoundland has been under constant and serious consideration since the establishment of the Commission of Government, and a number of measures have been taken to that end during the last 18 months. It has not, however, been thought expedient as yet to levy taxation on the lines recommended in the Report of the Royal Commission. It is hoped that the steps now being taken in Newfoundland for the development of its resources, particularly in forestry, and co-operation of the land-owners with the Government, may bring about the objects which the Royal Commission had in mind.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Has the idea of the taxation of land values in Newfoundland, in order to develop individual ownership, been scrapped, or is there still hope in that direction?
  Mr. HACKING: It has not been scrapped, but the Commission of Government are obviously in the best position to consider this matter impartially. It is hoped that it will not be necessary for any representation to be made from this end.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that the Commission of Government have considered that particular section in the Report of the Commission, and have they turned it down, or have they postponed taking action?
  Mr. HACKING: Oh, no, Sir; they have not turned down any proposal of the kind indicated. They have given consideration, and are still giving consideration to everything that may help to develop the resources of the country.
  Mr. LUNNasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he has any statement to make on the present position of affairs in Newfoundland?
  Mr. HACKING: Two Command Papers, No. 4788 and No. 4910, which were issued in January and May of this year respectively, outlined the steps which the Commission of Government are taking to deal with the economic situation in the Island. In July of this year a number of further reductions were made in the customs tariff with the object of relieving the poorer sections of the community, and, in this connection, special arrangements were made to lower the price of petrol to fishermen. Recently, there has, I am sorry to say, been a setback in economic recovery, owing partly to a poor fishing season and partly to difficulties in relation to external markets for fish. My right hon. Friend proposes to discuss the position in Newfoundland generally with some of the members of the Commission of Government who have just arrived in this country.
  Mr. LUNN: When are the Commission likely to conclude their labours in Newfoundland, and when are we likely to have another report from them? Is it not more than six months since we had any information from the Commission upon what is happening in Newfoundland?
  Mr. HACKING: I cannot say when the Commission are likely to conclude their operations. I hope that, as a result of the meeting which will take place shortly between my right hon. Friend and certain members of the Commission of Government, it may be possible to make some further statement.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will the new right hon. Gentleman consider the point which was put before the old right hon. Gentleman when the loans legislation was going through Parliament, as to direct representation of Newfoundland in this Parliament, so that we may know something about it?
  Mr. HACKING: I cannot make any statement on that subject at the present time.
  Mr. PALING: Is it a fact that there has been a steep rise in the numbers of unemployed in Newfoundland this year as compared with last year, and has the
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  right hon. Gentleman seen the paper that has been circulated to us lately stating that the workers of Newfoundland are the lowest-paid white workers in the American Continent?
  Mr. HACKING: I have already referred to a certain setback that has taken place recently. It is difficult to deal with a setback of that character, which was purely economic, but I hope that there will be an improvement very shortly.

  IRISH FREE STATE.
  Mr. LUNNasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he has any statement to make as to our relations with the Irish Free State?
  Mr. HACKING: There have been no recent developments in the position. I can assure the House that the question of the relations between the Irish Free State and this country is very present in the mind of my right hon. Friend. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom will lose no opportunity of improving the relations between the two countries.
  Mr. LUNN: Are the Department taking any steps to bring together the representatives of the Irish Free State Government and of our own Government to consider bringing about a settlement?
  Mr. HACKING: I really cannot add anything to the answer I have given. It is sufficient to say at this moment that we shall lose no opportunity of bringing the two countries closer together.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: In view of the change in the Cabinet positions, is it not time that a new effort were made by the new Gentleman in charge of this Department?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    DENMARK.
    Sir JOHN WARDLAW-MILNEasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent the Danish Government has restricted the imports of British manufactures during the past year?
    Captain EUAN WALLACE (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): Exact figures are not in my possession, but I am aware from the many complaints which have been made by United Kingdom exporters that during the greater part of the present year there has been a severe reduction in the issue of licences to individual Danish importers for the importation into Denmark of United Kingdom manufactures. The matter has formed the subject of repeated representations to the Danish Government, and will be pursued further.
    Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNE: Is it not the case that export manufacturers of Germany and other countries are much better treated by their Governments than are those in Britain?
    Captain WALLACE: I am afraid that I cannot answer that question without notice.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: Are these restrictions a retaliation for the restrictions in this country upon the import of Danish bacon?
    Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the President of the Board of Trade the figures of imports from and exports to Denmark during the past three years, showing separately the totals of manufactured goods; and the equivalent figures of purchases by Denmark from Germany and sales to Germany over the same period?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Dr. Burgin): As the answer involves a table of figures, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir JOSEPH NALL: Is there not a considerable adverse balance of trade with Denmark?
    Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNE: When the hon. Gentleman supplies the figures, will he find it possible to give the figures of finished goods, which are the largest item on the list?
    Dr. BURGIN: The table asked for is a table of manufactured goods, and the table prepared is in accordance with the question. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will see it first, and put down another question if he finds it necessary to do so.
    Following is the answer:
    The table below shows the value of the purchases and sales by Denmark in trade with the United Kingdom and Germany during the years 1932, 1933 and 1934. Manufactured goods are not classified separately in the Danish trade statistics. The trade returns of the United Kingdom show that of the total exports consigned to Denmark roughly 75 per cent. was classified in each of the three years as articles wholly or mainly manufactured, and of the imports about 1 per cent. The corresponding figures for "fertige waren" taken from the German trade returns are about 75 per cent. in 1932 and 1933 and 80 per cent. in 1934 for exports, and for imports of Danish origin about 4 per cent. in each year.

    Year.

    Total Purchases by Denmark from

    Total Sales by Denmark to

    United Kingdom.

    Germany.

    United Kingdom.

    Germany.

    Million Kroner.

    Million Kroner.

    Million Kroner.

    Million Kroner.

    1932

    254·9

    296·1

    728·0

    149·7

    1933

    355·7

    287·2

    781·5

    158·1

    1934

    407·1

    288·3

    740·5

    188·6

    Mean quoted rates of exchange:—
    In 1932,18·64; in 1933,22·22;
    In 1934,22·40 Kroner to £1.

    BACON (IMPORTS).
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any progress has been made in the negotiations with regard to the substitution of a levy for a quota, or to the combination of both, so far as the import of foreign bacon into this country is concerned; and which of the importing countries have agreed to the levy?
    Captain EUAN WALLACE: Discussions have taken place with representatives of certain of the countries concerned, in particular with Denmark, Poland and Sweden. Delegations from these countries have returned home to report to their Governments. No agreement has so far been reached.

    TARIFFS AND QUOTAS.
    Mr. R. ACLANDasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether His Majesty's Government are now conducting with any other Government or Governments negotiations having

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    as their object the reduction or removal of tariffs or quotas; and, if so, with which Government or Governments; and
    (2) whether His Majesty's Government intend to take the initiative in opening with any other Government or Governments negotiations having as their object the reduction or removal of tariffs or quotas; and, if so, with which other Government or Governments?
    Captain WALLACE: Following their declared policy, the Government have under constant review the possibility of negotiating trade agreements with other countries. At the moment, negotiations with Peru, the Netherlands and Netherland East Indies are in progress.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Since 1931, have the Government initiated any further trade agreement of an international character for an all-round reduction?
    Captain WALLACE: We have negotiated trade agreements with about 19 different countries.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Apart from the trade agreements, to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman referred, have the Government made proposals of a comprehensive character to a large number of countries generally?
    Captain WALLACE: The fact that we have negotiated 19 successful agreements shows that we have made a very large number of proposals.

    CONGO BASIN TREATIES.
    Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the examination of questions arising out of the Congo Basin Treaties has now been completed; and whether there is to be any change of policy in this connection?
    Captain EUAN WALLACE: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave yesterday to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury (Mr. Chorlton).
    Captain MACDONALD: Is it not a fact that during the last Session the President of the Board of Trade informed us that these treaties were under consideration, while an answer given yesterday stated that no action is to be taken?
    Captain WALLACE: That shows that, as a result of the consideration, there is nothing doing.
    Lieut.-Colonel SANDEMAN ALLEN: In the settlement of the Abyssinian dispute, which covers the boundaries in question, will these treaties be reviewed?
    Captain WALLACE: I am sure that that will be borne in mind.

    WAR MATERIAL (EXPORT LICENCES).
    Mr. POTTSasked the President of the Board of Trade what number of licences for the export of arms to Italy were issued by the Board of Trade between 1st December, 1934, and 1st June, 1935?
    Captain WALLACE: In the period 1st December, 1934, to 1st June, 1935, two licences were issued for the export of war material to Italy.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the President of the Board of Trade what number of licences for the export of arms to Bolivia were issued by the Board of Trade between 31st July, 1932, and 31st December, 1934?
    Captain WALLACE: In the period 31st July, 1932, to 31st December, 1934, 24 licences were issued for the export of war material to Bolivia.
    Mr. D. L. DAVIESasked the President of the Board of Trade what number of licences for the export of arms to Japan were issued by the Board of Trade between 30th December, 1931, and 31st December, 1934?
    Captain WALLACE: In the period 30th December, 1931, to 31st December, 1934, 66 licences were issued for the export of war material to Japan.

    BRITISH INDUSTRIES FAIR.
    Mr. BELLENGERasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the total sum available from all sources for publicity for the British Industries Fair of 1936; and what part of this has been spent on advertising in British newspapers in the Dominions and Colonies?
    Captain WALLACE: The total sum available to the Department of Overseas Trade from all sources for the purpose of meeting the cost of advertising and publicity for the forthcoming British Industries Fair is £12,500. I regret that

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    it has not been possible to allocate any portion of this sum for the purchase of advertising space in overseas newspapers circulating in Empire or Foreign countries. I would, however, point out that an elaborate publicity campaign is conducted in overseas countries by means of a direct appeal to known buyers, in a series of letters written in their own language, by a world-wide display of posters and other publicity material, and through the activities of the officers of the Commercial Diplomatic, Trade Commissioner, and Consular Services.
    Mr. BELLENGER: Can the hon. and gallant Member say why there has been this apparent neglect of the Empire in this matter, and will he endeavour to remedy this state of affairs?
    Captain WALLACE: I do not admit that there has been any neglect. We consider that the money we have is laid out to the best advantage.

  MERCANTILE MARINE.

    BRITISH SHIPPING (ASSISTANCE) ACT.
    Mr. STOREYasked the President of the Board of Trade the number and gross tonnage of the vessels ordered under Part II of the British Shipping (Assistance) Act; and how many applications for assistance under this Act are at present under consideration?
    Dr. BURGIN: As regards the first part of the question, I would refer to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Guildford (Sir J. Jarvis) on 5th December. Four applications for assistance are at present under consideration by the Ships Replacement Committee.
    Mr. STOREYasked the President of the Board of Trade how many of the ships scrapped, or to be scrapped, under Part II of the British Shipping (Assistance) Act, 1934, have been, or are to be, scrapped outside of the United Kingdom?
    Dr. BURGIN: So far, 45 vessels, totalling approximately 196,000 tons gross, have been nominated for demolition in connection with approved proposals under the scheme. Eleven vessels, of approximately 38,000 tons gross, have been sold to British shipbreakers, and 15 vessels,
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    of approximately 75,000 tons gross, to foreign shipbreakers. Arrangements for the disposal of the remaining 19 vessels have still to be made by the shipowners concerned.
    Mr. STOREY: In view of the large import of scrap iron into this country, and the difficulties experienced by British shipbreakers in obtaining tonnage, would it not be much better that this work should be done by British labour in British ports?
    Dr. BURGIN: That is a very important consideration, but the object of this scheme was to encourage shipbuilding, which is, on balance, far more capable of giving employment than shipbreaking; and, so long as the major object of the scheme is achieved, that is the principal matter for my Department.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Can the hon. Gentleman say how many of these ships, before being scrapped, have been purchased for foreign owners?
    Dr. BURGIN: The object of the scheme is to get rid of surplus tonnage, and it matters little whether it is foreign or British tonnage that is scrapped.
    Mr. THORNE: When these vessels are sold to British shipbreakers, is there any guarantee that they are not sold to foreigners?
    Dr. BURGIN: Does the hon. Member mean re-sold?
    Mr. THORNE: Yes.
    Dr. BURGIN: I could not tell without looking at the individual contracts, but I imagine there is very little risk of that.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Has the Department information which shows that vessels sold for the purpose of scrapping are being retained by foreign owners and put in commission?
    Dr. BURGIN: No, Sir; that is not the case.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Are you sure?
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: Is it not the case that some of these foreign vessels which have been sold, with the subsidy value attached to them, are bringing a profit to the foreign buyers which enables them to compete with us, so that the object of the subsidy is defeated?
    Dr. BURGIN: I know of no such instance.

    TRAMP SHIPPING SUBSIDY.
    Captain P. MACDONALDasked the President of the Board of Trade what sum has been expended to date in respect of the tramp shipping subsidy, and whether the scheme is to be continued on the present or upon a revised basis?
    Dr. ECURGIN: I must apologise for giving a somewhat long answer to this question.
    The interim payments which have been made in respect of the first and second quarters of the year amount to £795,569. A further distribution in respect of the third quarter is now beginning. As regards the second part of the question, the Government have given careful consideration to this matter. As the result of a detailed examination of the operation of the subsidy, the Government are satisfied that it has brought about a distinct improvement in British tramp shipping and in the employment of British officers and seamen, not only by its direct effects but also as a Iesult of the measures of co-operation which the subsidy has enabled the shipowners to introduce. At the same time they have reached the conclusion that, in the adverse circumstances which still persist, the withdrawal of the subsidy at this stage would endanger the continuance of those measures of co-operation and jeopardise the improvement which has been effected. The Tramp Shipowners' Committee of the Chamber of Shipping have applied for the continuance of the subsidy for a further period, and the Government have decided to ask Parliament to make available, for a period of 12 months from 1st January next, a further sum of £2,000,000 on the same general terms and conditions as before. The necessary legislation will be introduced as soon as possible.
    I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the valuable services which have been rendered during the year by the chairman and members of the Tramp Shipping Subsidy Committee and the Tramp Shipping Administrative Committee. The success of the subsidy has been due in
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    large measure to the work of those committees.
    Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHS: Is it a fact that the Government are going to introduce a Clause, in the New Year, to provide that there must be a means test for these shipping companies?
    Mr. THURTLE: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the owners of these tramp steamers are now paying satisfactory dividends as a result of the subsidy?
    Mr. PALING: Is the continuation of this subsidy in accordance with the demand of the shipowners, when the last one was being discussed, that it was only in the nature of a loan or part payment, and that they would demand more, and much more? Are the Government giving way to them?

    SEAWORTHINESS.
    Mr. GARRO-JONESasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to recent disclosures in Board of Trade inquiries, he can see his way to set up a Departmental Committee to inquire into the rules governing the seaworthiness of British ships, including fishing vessels?
    Dr. BURGIN: As my right hon. Friend informed the House in the Debate in the Committee of Supply, on the 18th July last, the principal questions arising out of the reports of the inquiries into shipping casualties which had then been received have been dealt with in regard to manning and steering gear by reference to committees, and in regard to surveys by consultation between my Department and the classification societies. Until reports on these questions have been received, it is premature to consider what further action is required.
    Mr. GARRO-JONES: In view of the fact that six months have now passed since that statement was made by the President of the Board of Trade, and that in the meantime ships are going to sea in an unfit state, how long shall we have to wait before these reports are received and action is taken upon them?
    Dr. BURGIN: The 18th July is nothing like six months ago. There is an inquiry the result of which is due to-morrow, and I think it would be better to await that.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: Would it not be well, when ships are recommended for breaking up or demolition, that they should be ships which are unsuitable?

  COMPANIES ACT, 1929.
  Mr. EDEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will note to include in the forthcoming Companies Act (1929) Amendment Bill regulations specifically designed to protect the public against exploitation by the abuse of the system of Stock Exchange introductions known as placings or offers to sell?
  Dr. BURGIN: The matter has been noted for investigation when the amendment of the Companies Act is under consideration.
  Mr. EDE: Can the hon. Gentleman inform me when legislation is likely to be introduced?
  Dr. BURGIN: The practice with regard to a matter like the Companies Act is to take note of any suggestions for improvement, and, after a reasonable period of time to test the working of the 1929 Act, to embody the whole in amending legislation. I doubt whether that time has yet arrived.

  FIXED TRUSTS.
  Mr. EDEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has requested the Committee of the Stock Exchange to allow him to see their report on fixed trusts; and, if so, whether he has yet received it?
  Dr. BURGIN: By the courtesy of the Committee of the Stock Exchange I have seen copies of documents which they have had under consideration. I understand, however, that, owing to the necessity of consulting various interests, the committee are not yet in a position to issue a report.
  Mr. EDE: Does that mean that the hon. Gentleman has in fact seen the report alluded to in the question?
  Dr. BURGIN: It means that I have seen a number of documents by the courtesy of the Committee of the Stock Exchange. The subject matter of the hon. Member's question is within the purview of the Committee of the Stock Exchange, and I must have regard to their
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  wishes in the matter. They have told me that, owing to the necessity of consulting various interests, they are not yet in a position to issue a report. I must abide by that decision.

  ANGLO-TURKISH CLEARING ARRANGEMENT.
  Mr. MANDERasked the President of the Board of Trade the amount of sterling provided up to date for payment to British suppliers, representing 70 per cent. of the payments effected to the Bank of England, against imports from Turkey under the Anglo-Turkish clearing arangement, the amount awaiting transfer at the latest date, and whether he is satisfied with the working of the agreement?
  Captain WALLACE: The figure asked for in the first part of the question is £250,341 up to 30th November, and that asked for in the second part was about £340,000 on the same date. While the transfers made under the Agreement were inadequate at the outset, they have recently increased, and I hope that the position will improve still further as the result of administrative improvements, for the introduction of which the co-operation of the Turkish Government has been invited.

  ITALY AND ABYSSINIA.
  Miss CAZALETasked the President of the Board of Trade what action, whether any, the Government are taking to safeguard the position of individuals in this country whose work and livelihood are being affected by the imposition of sanctions against Italy?
  Captain WALLACE: It is realised that the collective action in which His Majesty's Government are taking part must affect in various ways the position of individuals in this country. While, as my hon. Friend will appreciate, the Government cannot undertake to ask Parliament to provide funds for the grant of pecuniary compensation to those who may be adversely affected, they will take every opportunity to safeguard the position of United Kingdom trade interests.
  Mr. HERBERT G. WILLIAMS: Can my hon. and gallant Friend give an estimate of the number of coal miners whose employment has been adversely affected?
  Captain WALLACE: Certainly not without notice.
  Mr. PETHERICK: Does not my hon. and gallant Friend consider that sanctions are a form of insurance against war and that those who suffer by such insurance should receive compensation?
  Mr. ATTLEE(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether, before any further action is taken, this House will be informed of the nature of the proposals for the settlement of the Italo-Abyssinian war to which His Majesty's Government are committed?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): The House is aware that the Committee of Co-ordination at Geneva has approved negotiations by the French and United Kingdom Governments in an attempt to find a basis for the settlement of the Italo-Abyssinian dispute. Such a basis would, of course, have to be submitted for the views of the parties. The Foreign Secretary, in passing through Paris, had conversations on this subject on Saturday and Sunday with M. Laval, and certain proposals, both as to substance and procedure, were discussed between them. No suggested basis has at present been submitted for the views of either Italy or Abyssinia, and it would clearly he premature to make a statement on the subject at present.
  Mr. ATTLEE: May I ask whether the proposals which have been approved by the Foreign Secretary are substantially those which have already appeared in the foreign Press and in our own Press, and whether they are considered to be in line with the Covenant of the League of Nations?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I have not myself examined the Press reports. There has obviously been a leakage in France which has made a very difficult and delicate matter incomparably more difficult and more delicate, but I am told by those who have studied the original proposals and the Press reports that there are considerable differences in the matter of substance. Perhaps that answers the right hon. Gentleman's question.
  Mr. ATTLEE: In view of the fact that we have had some kind of account and publication, is it not fair that this House should be put in possession of the proposals?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I can perfectly well understand that question, and I am not complaining about it at all. I want to put this to the House. I have spent the whole of this morning in consultation on messages which have been coming through on this matter, and I am not at all sure that finality has yet been reached. I think that any discussion in this House before the question can possibly have been considered by the parties interested and concerned could do no good, and might do a great deal of harm. I recognise the natural desire of the House for all the information it can have, but I cannot myself see—I will put it in this way in my view a discussion at this moment might do very serious harm—I am not thinking of the Government but of the whole cause we have at heart—and I will undertake to the House that the moment that proposals are agreed upon and have been submitted, and we are in a position to lay all the relevant papers, which we cannot do on our own account alone and in the middle of the negotiations, I will lay them before the House and undertake to give a day for discussion at the earliest moment I can, in any case before the House rises for the Christmas Recess.
  Mr. ATTLEE: The right hon. Gentleman will see the difficulty in which we are placed. It is this. We are concerned as to what kind of proposals have been accepted by this Government, and have been submitted to the League in the name of the people of this country. We are not in a position to wait, because here, in a crisis like this, is a matter which has been the subject of a General Election, and we understand that proposals which, in our view, overthrow the whole basis of the League system, are being put forward in order to settle this question. We have no desire to embarrass the Government, but we are obliged to press for information and discussion.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that these proposals are merely a basis for discussion, and there is no precedent that I am aware of for having such basis placed before Parliament and discussed before they have been reached or have been considered by the parties who are to consider them, according to the procedure of the League of Nations.
  Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that it is still the firm policy of the Government not to agree to any terms which go further than what has been approved by the Committee of Five of the League of Nations?
  The PRIME MINISTER: What I think has always been said by the Government is that a necessary condition is approval by the three parties, that is the League and the two countries concerned.
  Mr. ATTLEE: In view of the importance of this matter, we feel obliged to discuss what is the proper basis of any proposals and we will take the opportunity, after the Liberal Amendment to the Address has been disposed of, of raising the matter of what is the basis of a satisfactory settlement, according to the principles of the League of Nations.
  Mr. COCKS: Can the Prime Minister give the House an assurance that the principle that the aggressor shall not be rewarded for his aggression will be upheld by the British Government?
  Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: May I urge the Prime Minister and His Majesty's Government not to allow any party in this House to arrogate to themselves the duties of the League of Nations as a whole and to intervene in this matter before this question again comes before the League?
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to remember that the only party in this connection is the English people and that the British Government is not the honest broker between two rivals, considering their policy and their honour?

  BRITISH ARMY.

    TERRITORIAL CAMPS.
    Mr. RANKINasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the desirability of taking some steps to draw the attention of employers to the need for adopting a more sympathetic attitude to those of their employees who wish to attend Territorial camps, and to point out to them that the Territorial Army is at present short of recruits on account of men being unable to join because of their absence on service?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Duff Cooper): Yes, Sir. This question will certainly be considered.

    PENSIONS (PAYMENT).
    Mr. LECKIEasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in the interests of the men, he will reconsider the practicability of paying Army pensions weekly through the Post Office?
    Mr. COOPER: Soldiers' pensions, with a few exceptions, are already paid weekly through Post Offices. In the exceptional cases the pensioner is entitled to receive payment quarterly in advance, but may change over to weekly payment if he so desires.

    SUICIDES.
    Mr. MAXTONasked the Secretary of State for War the number of officers and men in the Army who have committed suicide during the last 12 months, and whether any inquiry, other than coroner's inquests, has been made into the circumstances?
    Mr. COOPER: The number of suicides in the Regular Army during the last 12 months, at home and abroad, including India, has been: one officer, and 36 men. Four of these were the subject of courts of inquiry.
    Mr. MAXTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these suicides are brought about by gun-shot wounds?
    Mr. COOPER: Not without notice.
    Sir J. NALL: Does the number of these cases bear the same ratio as in the civil population?
    Mr. COOPER: Almost exactly the same.

  SCOTLAND.

    LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, 1929.
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction amongst the burghs of Scotland at the working of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929; and whether he is prepared to set up a national committee to inquire into and report on the working of that Act?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir Godfrey Collins): The answer to the first part of the question is

    721
    in the affirmative. I cannot at this stage add anything to the reply given by the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Mathers), on Thursday last, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Prime Minister's answer relates to the working of the complicated formula re the provisions of the block grant?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I understood that the hon. Member referred to the general criticisms against the Act. No doubt he is aware that a statutory inquiry is about to be held into the financial working of the Act forthwith.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Prime Minister's answer deals with the financial working of the Act in connection with the complicated formula to which I have referred?
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that dissatisfaction is by no means confined to small burghs or to the financial working of the Act, and cannot he see his way to holding a wider inquiry than that referred to by the Prime Minister?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I can hold out no hope of a wider inquiry.
    Mr. MATHERS: When is the inquiry likely to be completed?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I cannot give any date, but no time will be lost.
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction at the voting powers of large burgh representatives on county councils, as provided for by Section 8, sub-section (7), of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929; and will he be prepared to meet a deputation of the Large Burghs Committee of the Convention of Royal Burghs with a view to discussing ways and means of remedying the dissatisfaction and avoiding the friction between burghs and county authorities?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. No request for a meeting on the subject has been received from the committee referred to. I should, how-
    722
    ever, be glad to consider any representations which they may care to submit.

    HOUSING.
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the prescribed conditions for rebates of rent, referred to in Section 47, sub-section (5), of the Housing (Scotland) Act. 1935, will be available for Scottish housing authorities?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The regulations to which the hon. Member refers are at present being drafted and will be made available at the earliest possible date. Before the regulations reach their final form, I propose to consult representatives of local authorities.
    Mr. NEIL MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the complaints made about the conditions of the housing provided at Ken Doon, Dalry, Kirkcudbrightshire, for the men who are employed on the electricity contract, he will have an investigation made?
    Sir G. COLLINS: In April this year, officers of the Department of Health investigated complaints regarding a number of hutment camps in the Ken Doon district occupied by men employed on the Galloway Water Power Scheme. At a subsequent visit in July, it was found that certain recommendations made at the earlier visit had been carried into effect. Since then no complaints have been received, but if the hon. Member will let me know the exact nature of the complaints to which he refers, I shall have further investigation made.
    Mr. MATHERSasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the housing requirements in the county of Linlithgow, including the burghs therein; what steps are being taken to meet the shortage; and whether he is satisfied with the rate of progress being made?
    Sir G. COLLINS: As the answer to the first two parts of the question involves a number of figures, I am sending the hon. Member a statement containing the information asked for. With regard to the last part, reasonably satisfactory progress is being made by six out of the seven local authorities in the county. The remaining authority (Bo'ness) have experienced difficulty in obtaining suit-

    723
    able building sites within the burgh, but are now taking steps to surmount the difficulty by an extension of their boundaries.
    Mr. MATHERS: Will the right hon. Gentleman and his Department do what they can to accelerate that progress?
    Sir G. COLLINS: Yes, certainly.
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the total number of houses built in Glasgow during the past year and how this compares with two years ago; whether he is satisfied with the rate of progress; and, if not, what steps he proposes taking to have the rate of progress increased?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The total number of houses erected by the Corporation of Glasgow during the 12 months ended 31st October, 1935, was 3,438; for the year ended 31st March, 1933, the number was 2,560. While I appreciate the efforts that have been made by the corporation to carry out their housing programme, I understand that they are taking steps to secure a larger output of houses.
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that in the Gorbals Division of Glasgow a large number of families are occupying houses which are overcrowded; that frequently they have to live in either one-apartment or two-apartment houses, or in rooms which allow of little family life; that for years many of these families have applied to the local authority for houses without success; and what steps he proposes to take to have this problem in any way solved?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I am aware that the position is generally as stated in the first three parts of the question. As regards the last part, the corporation are at present making a survey of the overcrowding in their area the result of which is expected to be known by 31st December. Meantime the corporation have begun the erection of houses to relieve overcrowding, and I shall continue to maintain close contact with the corporation to secure the maximum progress.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman give sue a guarantee that the conditions of Gorbals, which are terrible, will be tackled by 1938, the date fixed in another answer?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I fixed the date of 31st December, 1938, for dealing with slum clearance, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the officials of my Department will do all they possibly can to help the Corporation of Glasgow to get all the houses they require as early as possible.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the problem of Gorbals and of Glasgow is not one merely of slums or overcrowding, but the conditions all over which he has led us to believe will be tackled by 1938.
    Sir G. COLLINS: It is the 1935 Housing Act which deals with the housing conditions of Gorbals, and it now rests with the Corporation of Glasgow to put that Act into operation.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will consider the introduction of legislation to provide for the reduction of rents of small houses and shops, in view of the great depreciation in the value of such houses and shops?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The rents of many small houses—including houses used partly as shops—are already restricted by the Rent Restrictions Acts. So far as local authority houses are concerned, the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1935, enables local authorities, subject to prescribed conditions, to grant rebates from the normal rents to meet the financial circumstances of the tenants. In these circumstances there appears to be no need for further legislation.
    Mr. STEPHEN: As those rents were fixed in 1920 and the houses have depreciated very much since that time, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that there should be legislation now to impose a reduction of rent?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The 1935 Act was specially drawn up to deal with particular cases, and it now rests with the corporation of Glasgow to deal with them.
    Mr. MAXTON: It has nothing to do with it except to protect the property owners.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses have been built in the Camlachie Parliamentary Division, Glasgow, during the last four years which have been let at an

    725
    inclusive rent of 10s. a week or under and what steps he proposes to take to provide such housing accommodation for the people in this area who are in need of decent houses at rents within their capacity to pay?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I am informed that in the Camlachie Parliamentary Division during the last four years the corporation have completed 126 houses which are let at an inclusive rent of 10s. or less per week. As regards the last part of the question, it is the duty of the corporation to provide suitable housing accommodation for persons who are in need of it, and steps are being taken to expedite progress.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me the kind of steps that are being taken?
    Sir G. COLLINS: Very numerous steps.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: Is it not a fact that the majority of the Corporation of Glasgow are socialist in complexion, and should not these questions by hon. Gentlemen be made direct to the corporation?

    CROFTERS (LOAN CHARGES).
    Mr. MALCOLM MacMILLANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction among the crofters of the Scottish Highland counties; and particularly in the Western Isles, with the interest charges for loans made to crofters; and whether he has any proposals for the reduction of these charges?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I presume the hon. Member refers to loans advanced by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland in aid of the provision of housing and the acquisition of acclimatised sheep stocks. In regard to sheep stock loans payment of interest has been waived for the past three years and, as announced in the Press on 2nd November last, no interest will be charged during a further period of five years from Martinmas, 1935. Housing loans are given by the Department on very favourable terms, namely, annuities at the nominal rate of 1¼ per cent. per annum repayable over 50 to 80 years.

    IRREGULAR MARRIAGES.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the present position with regard to the inquiry into the question of irregular marriages in Scotland?
    Sir G. COLLINS: Letters of invitation have been issued, and I hope shortly to be in a position to announce the personnel of the Committee of Inquiry and its terms of reference.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: In view of the fact that a certain number of English girls are involved in these irregular marriages, especially at Gretna, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of putting an English member on the committee in addition to a Scotsman?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I am afraid not. It is a purely Scottish matter.

    FLOODING (KELVIN VALLEY).
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the continued flooding of land in the valley of the Kelvin whereby some 2,000 acres of land are rendered useless for agricultural purposes, and that the engineer for the Department of Agriculture for Scotland prepared plans four years ago, under Section 3 of the Land Drainage (Scotland) Act, 1930, for the remedying of the flooding; and whether he now proposes to take any steps in the matter?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I am aware that portions of the valley of the Kelvin are liable to periodic flooding and that a draft scheme for the remedying of the flooding was prepared in 1931, in terms of the Land Drainage (Scotland) Act, 1930. Following the report of the Committee on National Expenditure, it was decided that this scheme should not proceed. The right hon. Gentleman is perhaps aware that I arranged this year for the continuance of the Act of 1930 in order that this and other schemes might be reconsidered. The matter is at present receiving very careful consideration.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: When does the right hon. Gentleman think we may properly repeat the question?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I will let the right hon. Gentleman know.

    SLUM CLEARANCE.
    Mr. GUYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he can make a statement as to the progress of slum clearance in Scotland?
    Sir G. COLLINS: In 1933 local authorities estimated that 61,943 houses were required to replace slum dwellings and they undertook to build if possible approximately 90 per cent. of that number in the five year period 1939–1938. With less than two years of that period elapsed, contracts have been placed for 34,824 houses, or 56 per cent. of the estimated requirements, and at 31st October last 15,125 houses, or 24 per cent. of the total estimated needs, had been completed. The output of new houses for the accommodation of tenants displaced from unfit houses was in 1933 7,199, in 1934 8,598, and for the first 10 months of this year 11,662. In the light of this increasing rate of progress it is possible to visualise the disappearance of the slums in Scotland by 31st December, 1938, and I will continue to keep a close watch upon the efforts of local authorities to achieve that most desirable object.
    Mr. GUY: Will the right hon. Gentleman press local authorities to accelerate the demolition of condemned and empty houses so that there may be more rapid progress with the re-housing of the cleared sites?
    Sir G. COLLINS: On the figures I have given the hon. Gentleman must realise that the local authorities have put their heart and soul into the matter.
    Mr. GALLACHER: Is it not the case that it is always slums in towns and cities that are under consideration, and that there are no proposals for the complete reconstruction of mining villages?
    Sir G. COLLINS: That is a matter for statutory revision by a committee that we are shortly appointing under the 1935 Housing Act.

    AGRICULTURAL WORKERS (WAGES).
    Mr. MATHERSasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is in a position to make a statement regarding the introduction of machinery to ensure a minimum wage for agricultural workers in Scotland?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I have undertaken to set up a small committee to examine
    728
    the whole subject of the conditions of employment and remuneration of farm workers in Scotland. This committee will be constituted shortly.
    Mr. MATHERS: When is it intended that the committee should report?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The appointment of the committee has not yet been made.

    HARRIS TWEED INDUSTRY.
    Mr. M. MacMILLANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will consider setting up, in the interests of the Harris tweed industry in the Outer Hebrides, a marketing board for the marketing of the homespun Harris tweed of the crofters of the Long Island?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I have no power to set up a board for the regulation of the marketing of Harris tweed. But, if the hon. Member is of opinion that. I could usefully assist the crofters in any arrangements which they desire to make for improved marketing organisation, I shall be glad to consider his suggestions.

    PUBLIC ASSISTANCE (FAMILY INCOME).
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that in Scotland many public assistance committees impose a maximum family income for applicants for relief; and whether, in view of the Government decision not to impose such a limit in the case of applicants for transitional benefit, he will have a circular issued advising public assistance committees not to enforce the family maximum income?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I am aware that some local authorities frame scales of relief which include a maximum household income. It is, however, the statutory duty of a local authority in dealing with an application for relief to make whatever provision is necessary after considering all the circumstances of the applicant, and this must override the provisions of any scale framed by the authority. Any applicant who is dissatisfied with the amount of relief granted to him by a local authority has a statutory right to complain to the Department of Health. That right is well known and, in the circumstances, I do not think it is necessary to issue any circular to the local authorities.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the family maxi-

    729
    mum now becomes in effect the maximum income which is granted and is rarely if ever varied, particularly in the City of Glasgow; and in view of the new conditions pertaining to the transitional benefit people, will he ask Glasgow Corporation particularly to review their decision on this matter?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I shall be happy to discuss the particular matter of the Corporation of Glasgow with hon. Members in this House. I understand that applicants dissatisfied with the amount granted have the right, as they have always had, and will continue to have, to appeal to the Department of Health.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is it not a reason why the family maximum should be abolished, seeing that they retain that right and that the family maximum is not necessary if they retain that appeal?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The hon. Member suggests a revision of the family allowance, which would involve legislation.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: You have issued circulars to decrease it.

    OLD AGE PENSIONS.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether there has been any change in policy whereby local authorities are compelled to take their pensions books from sick people who are undergoing hospital treatment or to refuse them public assistance on leaving the hospital for a period, even though the pension during the period of treatment has been spent on providing additional nourishment to the sick person by the dependant to whom the book was allocated?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I am not aware of any statutory provision that requires a local authority to collect the pension books of old age pensioners admitted to hospital for treatment, but I understand that some local authorities make arrangements for the safe custody of the books. In regard to the remainder of the hon. Member's question, the decision as to whether relief is necessary in any particular case rests primarily with the local authority subject to the right of any applicant refused relief to appeal to the Sheriff.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Am I to understand from the right hon. Gentleman that there
    730
    has been no change within the last two years?
    Sir G. COLLINS: There has been no change on the part of the Corporation of Glasgow during the last two years.

    SCHOOL ATTENDANCE.
    Mr. MAXTONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of children between the ages of 12 and 14 years who were exempted from school attendance during the last 12 months, and the number of children between the ages of 14 and 15 years who continued in school attendance in higher grade advanced division and elementary schools, respectively?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The number of children between the ages of 12 and 14 who were exempted from school attendance during the year ended 31st July, 1935, was 5,188—2½ per cent. of the corresponding age block. At the end of the school year 1934–35 the number of children between the ages of 14 and 15 in voluntary attendance at public schools was approximately 23,000—33 per cent. of the corresponding age block. About 50 per cent. of the 23,000 were in higher grade and secondary schools 42 per cent. in advanced divisions of non-secondary schools, and 8 per cent. in primary schools.

    PROPOSED EXHIBITION, STOCKHOLM.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether any assistance is being given by his Department to the exhibition of Scottish goods to be held in Stockholm from 15th to 29th January, 1936;
    Captain WALLACE: I regret that the proposal to hold such an exhibition in the early months of next year has fallen through. My hon. and gallant Friend's question does not therefore arise.

  MINISTERS (PRIVATE BUSINESS).
  Mr. MANDERasked the Prime Minister the constitutional practice with regard to members of the Government being prohibited from engaging in private business; and whether this applies equally to private partnerships, directorships of public and private companies, doctors, accountants, solicitors, and other professions?
  The PRIME MINISTER: As regards directorships, the rule was laid down by Sir Henry Campbell - Bannerman, in answer to a question on 20th March, 1906, in the following words:
  "The condition which was laid down on the formation of the Government was that all directorships held by Ministers must be resigned except in the case of honorary directorships, directorships in connection with philanthropic undertakings, and directorships in private companies."
  This rule has been observed by all subsequent Governments, and is still in force. As regards the other activities, no necessity has ever arisen to supplement with specific rules the traditional standards of public life in this country.

  CURRENCY STABILISATION (LOANS).
  Mr. DAYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what long-term loans, and

  Long-term Loans issued mainly or wholly for the purpose of currency stabilisation since 1919.

  Date.

  Borrowing Government.

  Total amount of loan.

  Amount outstanding.

  Rate of interest.

  Per cent.

  1926

  …

  Belgium

  …

  £8,500,000

  £7,802,000

  7

  $50,000,000

  $45,800,000

  Swiss Fcs. 32,000,000

  Swiss Fcs. 29,400,000

  Swedish Kr. 9,000,000

  Swedish Kr. 8,300,000

  1928

  …

  Bulgaria

  …

  (a) £5,400,000

  (b) £5,400,000

  7½

  1927

  …

  Estonia

  …

  £700,000

  £647,500

  7

  $4,000,000

  $3,668,500

  1924

  …

  Germany

  …

  £21,720,000

  £16,550,000

  7

  $110,000,000

  $59,600,000

  Lire 100,000,000

  Lire 77,500,000

  Swiss Fcs. 15,000,000

  Swiss Fcs. 11,500,000

  Swedish Kr. 25,200,000

  Swedish Kr. 19,900,000

  1928

  …

  Greece

  …

  £4,100,000

  £4,000,000

  6

  $17,000,000

  $16,600,000

  1924

  …

  Hungary

  …

  (a) £14,200,000

  (b) £10,400,000

  7½

  1927

  …

  Poland

  …

  £2,000,000

  £1,320,000

  7

  $62,000,000

  $43,700,000

  1929

  …

  Roumania

  …

  £2,000,000

  £1,811,000

  7

  $69,000,000

  $62,900,000

  French Fcs. 561,600,000

  French Fcs. 510,800,000

  1931

  …

  Yugoslavia

  …

  French Fcs. 1,025,000,000

  French Fcs. 1,014,300,000

  7

  The service of the Belgian, Estonian and Polish Loans has been duly met in accordance with the original Loan Contracts.

  Details of the position as regards the remaining loans are given in the Annual Reports of the League Loans Committee and of the Council of Foreign Bondholders.

  (a) Tranches other than sterling converted at exchange rates at date of issue.

  (b) Tranches other than sterling converted at present rates.

  of what amount, which have been issued to foreign governments mainly or wholly for the purpose of currency stabilisation since 1919 still remain unpaid?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): I am issuing in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving the information asked for.
  Mr. DAY: Will it give the total amount?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It gives total amounts.
  Mr. DAY: Does it include banking credits and Treasury operations as well?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It answers the question on the Order Paper.
  The information is as follows:

  FIGHTING FORCES (STATISTICS).
  Mr. MANDERasked the Prime Minister the proportions which the armies, navies, and air forces of Great Britain, France. Italy, Germany, and Japan bear to each other, respectively, according to the latest available information?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The latest authoritative information regarding the land and air forces of the Powers named is given in the Armaments Year Book of the League of Nations for 1935, a copy of which is being placed in the Library. The figures therein quoted for Germany are, however, prior to the development of her forces now in process of taking place. The present strength of the navies is shown in the latest edition of "Fleets," Which is about to be published. It is expected that it will be laid before the House on Thursday next.
  Mr. ALEXANDER: Will the right hon. Gentleman accompany that statement with a White Paper explaining the policy of the Government at the Naval Conference?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot answer that question without notice. I think I made our policy clear in my opening speech at the Conference.
  Mr. THORNE: Will the statement show the big ships as well as the small ships that are being built by the naval Powers?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I regret that I cannot answer that question because I have not studied this particular book myself.

  ESTIMATES (SELECT COMMITTEES).
  Sir J. NALLasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the desirability of moving to set up separate select committees on Estimates to examine and report upon the several classes of Estimates before they are submitted to the Committee of Supply?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I am unable to adopt this course. A similar suggestion was carefully considered in 1932
  734
  in connection with the recommendations of the Select Committee on Procedure, but His Majesty's Government did not feel able to adopt it as it involved a major departure from present constitutional practice and was otherwise open to serious objection. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of a statement made in the House on 2nd May, 1933, when announcing the decision of His Majesty's Government.

  IMPORT DUTIES ACT (SHIPYARD IMPORTS).
  Mr. STOREYasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the quantity and value of the goods imported into registered shipyards in the United Kingdom and on the North-East Coast, respectively, free of duty, under the provisions of Section 11 of the Import Duties Act, 1932, to the nearest convenient date?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. W. S. Morrison): The value of the goods liable to duty ad valorem and admitted duty-free, or on drawback of the duty, into registered shipbuilding yards in the United Kingdom from 1st March, 1932, to 30th September, 1935, was approximately £980,000. The values of goods liable to specific duties are not recorded. A great variety of goods is concerned and information as to the quantity of each description is not available. I am unable to supply my hon. Friend with particulars for shipyards on the North-East Coast, as these are not separately recorded.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    COLLIERY SALES (SUBSIDIARY COMPANIES).
    Mr. LEACHasked the Secretary for Mines whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that certain collieries possess subsidiary companies to whom they sell their coal production at unreasonably low prices, basing the miners' wages on such improperly low prices; and whether he will take steps to put an end to this practice?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Captain Crookshank): I am aware that the practice to which the hon. Member calls attention does exist, though I do not

    735
    think it is general. It is my intention, in considering the proposals to be submitted to me for the re-organisation of the selling side of the coal industry, to secure that a proper price for colliery sales is brought into account for the purposes of wages ascertainments.
    Mr. LEACH: Will this practice then be brought to an end so far as it affects wages?
    Mr. H. G. WILLIAMS: Is it not the duty of the accountants to satisfy themselves that all the coals are transferred at fair market prices?
    Mr. PALING: Are we to understand that an inquiry has been made into this kind of thing?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I did not say anything about an inquiry. I said that in considering any proposals put before me, my intention will be to secure proper prices.
    Mr. PALING: Are we to understand that the Minister will get to know how many of these people are guilty of this practice?
    Mr. LEACH: When the Minister says "proper prices," does he mean proper wages?

    Number of persons killed and seriously injured during the eleven months ended November, 1935, in and about mines under the Coal Mines Act, 1911.

    Place or Cause of Accident.

    Number of Persons.

    Killed.

    Seriously Injured.

    Underground—

    By Explosions of Firedamp or Coal Dust

    …

    …

    37

    58

    By Falls of Ground

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    410

    1,356

    Shaft Accidents

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    13

    55

    Haulage Accidents

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    162

    712

    Miscellaneous

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    69

    562

    Total Underground

    …

    …

    …

    691

    2,743

    Surface—

    On Railways, Sidings or Tramways

    …

    …

    …

    29

    101

    Other Surface Accidents

    …

    …

    …

    …

    45

    164

    Total on Surface

    …

    …

    …

    74

    265

    Total (Underground and Surface)

    …

    765

    3,008

    Captain CROOKSHANK: Proper prices for the purpose of wages ascertainments.
    Mr. GARRO-JONES: In view of the secrecy which surrounds this method of selling prices, will the Minister say how he proposes to ascertain to what extent the practice exists? Can I have an answer?
    Mr. PALING: In view of the importance of the question, cannot we have an answer?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Minister has answered the question on the Order Paper.

    ACCIDENTS.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines the number of persons killed and seriously injured in the mining industry during 1935, and the causes of the accidents?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: The figures for the 11 months, January to November, 1935, at mines under the Coal Mines Acts, are 765 killed and 3,008 seriously injured. As the remainder of the reply involves a statistical statement I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The information is as follows:

    EXPORTS (HUMBER PORTS).
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines the total quantity of coal exported from the Humber ports, respectively, during 1935 and the f.o.b. price per ton, and the comparative figures for 1930?

    Quantity and the Average Value per ton (f.o.b.) of coal exported from the Humber Ports during the 10 months ended October 1930 and 1935.

    Port.

    Ten months ended October.

    1930.

    1935.

    Quantity.

    Average declared Value per ton (f.o.b.).

    Quantity.

    Average declared Value per ton (f.o.b.).

    Tons.

    s.

    d.

    Tons.

    s.

    d.

    Goole

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,233,841

    14

    2

    659,049

    14

    10

    Grimsby

    …

    …

    …

    …

    235,360

    14

    8

    73,537

    14

    6

    Immingham

    …

    …

    …

    1,962,450

    14

    1

    1,310,536

    14

    9

    Hull

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,687,655

    15

    4

    705,857

    15

    8

    Total

    …

    …

    …

    5,119,306

    14

    7

    2,748,979

    15

    0

    It should be noted that the figures for the earlier period were affected by the Central Collieries Commercial Association's Voluntary Scheme.

    CONSETT IRON COMPANY (WAY-LEAVES).
    Mr. WALKERasked the Secretary for Mines if he is aware that the decision of the Court of Appeal in the case of the Consett Iron Company v. Clavering and Towneley Trustees, under the Mining Industries Act, 1926, has given an interpretation of the Act contrary to that given by a Scottish court in a similar case; that no appeal can be made to the House of Lords for a final ruling on the matter; and that by the said decision of the Court of Appeal the Consett Iron Company is compelled to pay an annual way-leave of £6,000 as against the £270 fixed by the Railway and Canal Commissioners, which places a heavy burden upon the collieries owned by the company; and whether he is prepared to introduce legislation forthwith amending the 1926 Act so as to remove this state of affairs and to relieve the colliery industry of excessive land charges?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: The answers to the first three parts of the question are in the affirmative. With regard to the last part, the question is being carefully considered in conjunction with other
    Captain CROOKSHANK: As the reply involves a statistical statement, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL RETORT.
    The information is as follows:
    important problems affecting the coal industry. I cannot say more than that at the moment.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Will not the proposed legislation in regard to mining royalties necessitate the amendment of the Act which governs this particular problem?

    MINE WORKERS (YORKSHIRE).
    Mr. G. GRIFFITHSasked the Secretary for Mines the number of mine workers employed at the West Yorks and South Yorks mines for the years ending November, 1930, 1933 and 1935?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: The information is as follows:

    Year ended November.

    Average Number of Wage-earners on Colliery Books.

    South Yorkshire.

    West Yorkshire.

    1930

    116,600

    51,800

    1933

    97,700

    44,400

    1935

    94,900

    42,600

    RETAIL PRICES.
    Mr. MAXTONasked the Secretary for Mines whether the large increase in the retail price of coal which has taken place in certain districts in recent months is general throughout the whole country; and whether any increase in cost of pro-

    739
    duction or distribution has necessitated these increases?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: The statistics collected by my Department do not permit of comparisons between the increases in coal prices in one district and another. I understand, however, that the majority of the recent increases to consumers correspond with increased pithead prices.

  OIL (SALES TO FOREIGN-OWNED COMPANIES).
  Mr. THURTLEasked the Secretary for Mines the comparative figures of the sales of oil by the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company to foreign-owned companies for the period covering October and November, 1934, and October and November, 1935, respectively?
  Captain CROOKSHANK: Oil is sold by the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company in many parts of the world, and I should not feel justified in asking the company to furnish details of their commercial transactions such as are asked for by the hon. Member.
  Mr. THURTLEasked the Secretary for Mines whether he has any information as to the extent to which oil which is being sold by British-owned companies to foreign-owned companies is being resold to Italy?
  Captain CROOKSHANK: No, Sir.
  Mr. THURTLE: Will the hon. and gallant Member obtain such information, because there is a desire for it in the House?

  POST OFFICE.

    TELEPHONE SERVICE.
    Mr. DAYasked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to, and has he received any reports on, a new service which has been introduced for the convenience of subscribers on the Paris telephone exchange whereby on the telephone subscriber dialling S.V.P. the operator will switch the caller to an information service which will answer any reasonable questions; and will he consider affording the same service and advantages to London telephone subscribers?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Major Tryon): My attention has been drawn to this new service; and I am making inquiry into its working with a view to considering whether its introduction, in its present or in a modified form, in this country is practicable and desirable. The Paris service is operated by a private company, though access to it is obtained through the Post Office telephone system.
    Mr. DAY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the inquiries he has made have led him to believe that there is a satisfactory service in Paris?
    Major TRYON: I cannot say whether the service is satisfactory, but as a charge of 2s. 6d. is made for each of these questions, perhaps the hon. Member would find it rather expensive.
    Mr. H. G. WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman supply one to the hon. Member for Central Southwark (Mr. Day)?

    BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION (TRADE UNION CONDITIONS).
    Mr. PARKERasked the Postmaster-General whether, in the British Broadcasting Corporation, as a public corporation, trade union rates and conditions are observed in all grades?
    Major TRYON: The rates of pay of the staff employed by the British Broadcasting Corporation are, under Clause 7 of its Charter, a matter for the Corporation to determine. I understand, however, that the Corporation pays rates of wages and observes conditions of labour not less favourable than those recognised by trade unions for the grades concerned.

  TRANSPORT.

    ROADS, WESTERN ISLES.
    Mr. M. MacMILLANasked the Minister of Transport, in view of the promise of 100 per cent. grants to Highland counties for roads, whether he will consider the allocation to the authorities of Inverness and Ross and Cromarty of 100 per cent. grants for the specific purpose of constructing new roads and repairing and improving existing roads in the Western Isles?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Captain Austin Hudson): The roads to

    741
    be dealt with under the scheme for the reconstruction and improvement, on the basis of 100 per cent. grants, of certain Class I roads in the crofter counties have been agreed—I think with appreciation—with the county councils concerned, and do include certain roads in the Western Isles. When a special measure of assistance such as this is given, my right hon. Friend feels it should not be treated as an occasion for further demands, and it must be realised that it enables the county councils to devote additional money from their own resources to the remaining roads in the counties.

    PROPOSED SEVERN BRIDGE.
    Mr. PRICEasked the Minister of Transport what opportunities will be offered before this House for stating the case of those who see in the construction of a bridge across the Severn at English-stones a danger to the trade and commercial interests of the Upper Severn ports and towns?
    Captain HUDSON: A Bill has been deposited by the Gloucestershire and Monmouthshire County Councils for authority to construct the proposed bridge, so that ample opportunity will be afforded to interests concerned of presenting their cases to Parliament.
    Mr. PERKINS: Have not the Government already offered 75 per cent. of the cost of this bridge?
    Captain HUDSON: There has been a Government grant, and there will have to be a Parliamentary Bill, which can be debated in the House.

  AGRICULTURE.

    BACON FACTORIES, YORKSHIRE.
    Mr. TURTONasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the grave concern that is being occasioned to the Yorkshire pig producers by the delay of the Bacon Development Board in giving their decision upon the application of the Yorkshire Farmers' Bacon Factory (1932), Limited, to construct a new factory at Norton, and that a number of Yorkshire: pig producers have been prevented from accepting the 1936 contract through their uncertainty whether there would be adequate factory accommodation in Yorkshire; whether he will draw the attention of the Bacon Develop-
    742
    ment Board to the inconvenience that is being caused by this delay; and whether he will take all the steps that lie in his power to secure that there shall be factories of an adequate number and size in Yorkshire to take the Yorkshire pigs?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Ramsbotham): I am informed by the Bacon Development Board that in the light of certain present conditions the Board have come to the conclusion that it would be undesirable-to grant licences for new factories to come into operation in 1936. They intend, however, at the earliest possible date after March, 1936, to consider the desirability to granting licences for 1937 to the following classes of applicants:—

    (a) those who propose to transfer factory accommodation from foreign countries to the United Kingdom, especially where they are in a position to sell the bacon which they produce direct to the consumer;

    (b) those who can satisfy the Bacon Development Board that ample supplies of pigs can be obtained within a reasonable distance to support the proposed factory without substantially reducing the quantity of pigs handled by existing curers.

    Mr. TURTON: Is the hon. Member aware that as a result of this decision contracts for over 20,000 pigs in Yorkshire will have to be refused in the next contract period, and that the whole of the pig marketing scheme will break down in Yorkshire if it is allowed to continue? Will he represent to the Bacon Board the extreme gravity of the situation?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: The hon. Member will realise that there is a certain shortage of supply, and that this is hardly the moment to extend factory accommodation to other parts of the country.
    Mr. TURTON: But is it not most cruel and uneconomic to send pigs over 100 miles from a farm?
    Mr. PETHERICK: Is the hon. Member also aware that this applies to other counties besides Yorkshire?
    Sir J. NALL: May I ask whether priority will be given for new licences to new premises which replace old ones.

    743
    There are cases where persons are not allowed to transfer to another factory.

    BACON (PRODUCTION).
    Sir J. NALLasked the Minister of Agriculture what quantity of bacon has been produced in the United Kingdom during the present year to the latest available date; and what quantities were produced in the corresponding periods of 1933 and 1934?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: The quantity of bacon produced in the United Kingdom in the first ten months of this year is estimated at 2,387,000 cwt. The corresponding figure for 1934 is 1,797,000 cwt. These figures do not include the output of small curers not registered under the Great Britain Bacon Marketing Scheme. I regret that I have not any corresponding information for 1933.

    The Average Prices of the Principal Descriptions of Imported Wheat for the five years ended 1931, together with the Average Price of Home-grown Wheat as ascertained under the Corn Returns Act, 1882, and the Corn Sales Act, 1921, are as follows:—

    Description.

    1927.

    1928.

    1929.

    1930.

    1931.

    Average of 5 years.

    Cwt.

    Cwt.

    Cwt.

    Cwt.

    Cwt.

    Cwt.

    Wheat.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    Home-grown

    …

    …

    11

    6

    10

    0

    9

    10

    8

    0

    5

    9

    9

    0

    Australian

    …

    …

    …

    12

    10

    11

    11

    11

    1

    8

    11

    5

    11

    10

    2

    Canadian:

    No. 1 Manitoba

    …

    …

    14

    0

    —

    —

    8

    5

    6

    5

    9

    7

    No. 2 Manitoba

    …

    …

    13

    7

    12

    5

    11

    10

    8

    11

    6

    1

    10

    7

    No. 3 Manitoba

    …

    …

    12

    10

    11

    8

    11

    7

    9

    0

    5

    10

    10

    2

    Argentine

    …

    …

    …

    12

    5

    11

    3

    10

    4

    8

    4

    5

    3

    9

    6

    WHEAT PRICES.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture the average price of imported wheat for the five years ended 1931 and the price for English-grown wheat for the same period, and the comparable prices for imported and English-grown millable wheat for 1933, 1934 and 1935?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: As the reply contains a number of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT giving the desired information.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Can the hon. Member assure the House that a reasonable price is being paid by millers for English-grown wheat?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: The hon. Member will gather that from the figures I propose to provide for him.
    Following is the statement:

    MILLABLE WHEAT.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture what quantity of English-grown wheat of millable quality on which deficiency payments are made is sold for feeding meals; and the average price received for it?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: Under the Wheat Act, 1932, deficiency payments are made to growers on all properly certified sales of millable wheat of their own growing without regard to the use which may be made of the wheat when sold. I have no information regarding the quantity of English-grown wheat sold for feeding meals or the average prices received for such wheat.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Can the hon. Member ascertain what quantity of millable wheat we can depend upon for feeding pigs?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: It will be generally agreed that the Wheat Act is working extremely well.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. ATTLEE: May I ask the Prime Minister what business will be taken on Thursday?
The PRIME MINISTER: Thursday's business has been somewhat rearranged. The first Order will be a Motion for an Address to His Majesty for the erection of a monument to the memory of the late Admiral of the Fleet Earl Jellicoe. On this will follow the Second Reading of the Public Works Loans Bill and the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution; Committee and remaining stages of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill; Committee stage of the Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) (Extension) Money Resolution, and consideration of outstanding Import Duties Orders.
Mr. MAXTON: Does that mean that the Eleven o'Clock Rule will be suspended on Thursday?
The PRIME MINISTER: I hope that we may not have to do that so early in the Session.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Is it to be taken that there have been conversations as to agreement or otherwise on these Bills passing unopposed?
The PRIME MINISTER: I do not think that there is a great deal in them to arouse controversy.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  KING'S SPEECH.

    DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS.
    [SIXTH DAY.]
    Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [3rd December],
    "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:—
    Most Gracious Sovereign,
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[Mr. Wakefield.]
    Question again proposed.
    3.55 p.m.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words
    "but humbly regret the absence from the Gracious Speech of constructive proposals for absorbing unemployed persons into industry, both by initiating international co-operation for the progressive reduction of the obstacles to trade and by a comprehensive policy of national development."
    I regret that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George) is not here to move this Amendment, and in his place I seek to put before the House certain reasons for its adoption. This Amendment is much more limited in scope than that which the House has been considering during the last two days. It is limited to two matters of cardinal importance which we think are of the utmost consequence in the present halting state of world recovery, and also having regard to the needs of our domestic situation. There has been a great deal of discussion during this Debate on the relative merits and demerits of Capitalism and Socialism. That discussion has not led to any very definite conclusions, and I cannot feel that such discussions have any real practical value, because the question is one that cannot possibly be brought to a practical issue within the life of the present Parliament, or indeed at any time which is easily foreseeable at present.
    The plain truth of the matter is that the present system or congeries of systems under which we seek to satisfy
    758
    our wants and organise our industrial affairs will continue, just as long as the plain, ordinary people of this country feel that it will give them a square deal. When they cease to have that belief, then they will turn to something else. What, I think, the country and the unemployed at this time are entitled to seek from Parliament is that it should devote itself to an attack on poverty and unemployment by all the means which are at present available to it, and which can be brought into operation within the next five years. It is not Communism or Socialism, Capitalism or Fascism which is the source, at the moment, of the world's major ills. The chief single cause of poverty and unemployment to-day is none of these things, but the state of anarchy which prevails in international commercial arrangements between the peoples of the world. That is the major cause of our troubles and economic disabilities at the present time.
    We are often told that Capitalism has failed. Capitalism has had many failures. If it had not, it would be the only human institution of which I am aware, which has not had experience of failure. Having regard to the extraordinary developments of science and the application of science to the solution of the problems of production, it would be just as easy to argue that at the present time Capitalism is more triumphant and successful than it has been at any other time since it became an organised system. If one says that, one must go further and point out that it is the failure of statesmanship to direct the distribution of the goods which we have learned to produce, and the fact that statesmanship throughout the world has effectively neutralised the benefits which have accrued in the last 25 years—it is that which is the cause of the failure of the capitalist system to benefit from the extraordinary progress made under it.
    When the onset of the economic crisis became acute in 1930 every Government was driven to consider the malady within its own boundaries, without regard to the state of things amongst its neighbours, although the malady afflicted them in almost precisely the same way. They were driven to defend their own interests, and they did so by means with which we are all familiar: they tried to

    759
    entrench themselves behind barriers of tariffs, quotas, exchange controls and the like. Recovery the world over is taking place in a greater or less degree. There has been a substantial degree of recovery in most countries. It is now, according to the best information available, beginning to halt. The state of anarchy which arose owing to the development of these defensive measures by the different countries has led to the machinery of international trade becoming clogged. Although the worst effects of the crisis are now passing away, the machinery is more clogged than it has been at any time. No country in the world wishes this state of things to continue; every one of them deprecates it. In every country of the world the statesmen have, even as they proposed these measures, regretted them, and expressed the hope that the time may come when they would be able to dispense with them.
    We believe that the influence of this country and of the British Empire in international commerce is supreme. We believe, therefore, that we have a better chance, and if we have that better chance we have a greater duty to try, to lead the world out of the morass in which it is struggling at the present time. I would fortify myself in the expression of that view by the opinion of the Economic Committee of the League of Nations. That is a body which, sitting at Geneva, is able to take a detached view of the malady from which the world is suffering, a view free from the prejudices which arise from the spirit of economic nationalism, a detached view not blurred by the special interest of any particular country. The considered view of the Economic Committee of the League is that:
    "While the crisis tends to diminish the machinery of international trade becomes more and more jammed. Of these two things the latter is now the more serious and calls the more urgently for treatment. The restarting of the international machinery of trade takes precedence of all other needs."
    That is our view, and that is the reason why we are moving this Amendment to the Address. Holding these views, we welcomed particularly the new departure which seemed to be made in the policy of the Government by the Foreign Secretary in his speech at Geneva. That
    760
    speech seemed to indicate a new recognition of the political necessities of the world to-day. It is quite true that it was related not so much to the general trade question in particular, but to the necessity of making it clear to the countries dissatisfied with economic conditions, within the League and without it, that we for our part were prepared to consider any disabilities, any legitimate cause for complaint from which they considered they were suffering, by peaceful means rather than by leaving the questions to go on smouldering until the countries in question might seek to burst the economic fetters by means of war. It is true that that was the immediate cause of the pronouncement of the Foreign Secretary in his wholly admirable speech at Geneva. No less did we welcome the pronouncement of the Foreign Secretary in his broadcast speech to America. I would like to remind the House of the words he used, for they seem to confirm us in our opinion that the Government were making a new departure in international trading policy. The Foreign Secretary's words were:
    "It seems to me that the lowering of the barriers to international trade, slow and difficult as the task must inevitably be, is one of the most fundamental of the tasks of the present time. It is a task that must be persistently and courageously pursued, not only by Ministers of Commerce who desire to promote the economic welfare of the world, but also more by all those who wish to promote international friendship and to serve the great cause of peace."
    Experience has taught me that there are very few statements, if any, which can be made in this House without their leading to contradiction from some quarter but I venture to hope that that statement made with the authority of the Foreign Secretary, a man who commands the affection and confidence of this House, is one which will not be contradicted in any quarter of the House. In that belief I cherish the further hope that there will be unanimity in the House, at all events with regard to the first part of the Amendment which I have moved. I will trespass on the attention of the House by inviting them to consider some further words spoken by the Foreign Secretary in the course of the same broadcast. He invited his listeners to consider and read a handbook, "Re-

    761
    marks on the Present Phase of International Economic Relations," issued by the League, and he said:
    "That little book I would commend to all my listeners this evening. It is a sermon on the folly of our times. Its text may be summed up in this one quotation:
    'The malady from which the world is now suffering is no longer entirely the crisis, but rather the inability of the countries to co-ordinate their several efforts to emerge from the crisis.'"
    That, as we see it, is the position today. We would ask whether these pronouncements by the Foreign Secretary are merely to be regarded as ballons d'essai, or whether they foreshadow, as we believe, a very important and proper departure from recent economic policy, and what steps the Government propose to take to give effect to them. We were surprised indeed to find that there was no reference made in the King's Speech to this question which we regard as of the uttermost consequence. We regret that no indication has been given to the House of any definite steps which are to be taken to promote this desirable policy. Is it intended to re-summon the Economic Conference at a convenient time? We were told that that body when it broke up did not part to meet no more but was only adjourned. Surely a day will come when it may be possible to ask them to meet again. Or are the Government prepared to take the step which we think they ought to take, namely, to offer full access to the markets under our control to all those countries, whether British or foreign, which are prepared to offer equal facilities to us in their countries That is a step which we think ought to be taken. It might have the effect of breaking the vicious circle in which the countries of the world are moving now. At all events we would be glad to know what is the mind of the Government with regard to this matter. More than any other single policy which they can adopt will it bring relief to the unemployed.
    If our overseas trade could be brought back to the level of 1929 we should no longer be talking of 2,000,000 unemployed, for the number would be nearer 1,000,000. I cannot point to any other single step or development of policy which would have that result. It would have an immediate effect on the deplorable position in
    762
    all our ports. With the exception of London, which enjoys a specially favourable position owing to the new orientation of industry in this country and owing to the fact that London deals largely in products like oil which are not subject to tariffs, practically every port in the country has to-day a volume of unemployment 100 per cent. more than that in 1929. The Merseyside district as a whole has well over 100,000 unemployed, as against 60,000 in 1929. There we have the tragic circumstance of the long-term unemployed, those who have been out of work for three years and more, and a large number of black coated unemployed, and all those distresses which are particularly aggravated by the chronic depression at the ports. Not the Merseyside alone, but all the ports of the country, with the exception of London, are suffering in that way.
    This new policy which we thought the Government were adopting is one of the steps which would do more than any single thing to restore hope in those districts where chronic depression reigns. I shall expect to be asked in this House who would respond to such an invitation if we gave it. I expect to be reminded of the efforts made by the late Mr. William Graham, so honourably and affectionately remembered by many in this House, who went to Geneva and failed. I might have my attention drawn to the agreements made by the President of the Board of Trade. Certainly I have no wish to belittle any scheme, however small, which will do anything to ameliorate the position, but I cannot refrain from pointing out that the trade agreements hitherto made by this country are really a mere homeopathic remedy in comparison with the enormous evil and the state of anarchy which prevail in international relationships.
    What I wish to impress on the Government is that there has been a very remarkable change in sentiment with regard to this matter in recent times. The fact that the evil has become manifest, and the fact that the condition of the crisis in different countries has to some extent become ameliorated, have led to a saner and wiser view being taken of the matter in many countries. I would remind the House that the United States Government have recently made an important change in their Constitution, in their economic practice,

    763
    in giving powers to President Roosevelt to lower tariffs in response to concessions from other countries. That is a remarkable thing. As hon. Members know full well, the Americans do not lightly change their Constitution; but they have taken this remarkable step. I could, but that I hesitate to bore the House, justify my statement that there has been a remarkable change of opinion in this regard by various quotations, but I think I can abridge my argument and also convey what I wish to lay before the House by quoting the opinion of Sir Arthur Balfour, as he then was—he is now a member of another place—on his return from the International Chambers of Commerce Conference. He described the Congress as the biggest and most representative one of the kind that had ever been held, and he said:
    "The Congress has, for the first time, shown serious concern at the present state of trade barriers. The proceedings of the Congress have revealed a momentous change, from every point of view, in the attitude of producers in Protectionist nations. In that respect it has proved an eye-opener. Delegates from countries who a few years ago only gave lip service to a fair system of international trade are now really anxious for a change in the situation. As regards France and the French delegation, the change is simply astonishing. It has really been a great manifestation in favour of a relaxation of the shackles which are now hampering international commerce. This has been accompanied by a strong desire on all sides for a revival of currency stability, without which there can be no security in international trade,"
    I think that is eloquent testimony to the change that has taken place and the more favourable atmosphere, unfortunately marred at present by the course of the African war, and it gives good reason to hope that there may be in the near future an opportunity of taking this matter up effectively. Mr. Cordell Hull, the United States Secretary of State, made a speech which I should like to see recited as a sort of general confession by all Ministers of Commerce of all the States of the world, if we could only get them together in unison. Mr. Cordell Hull said:
    "We willingly and frankly admit that we erred in the past, and that we have now repented. Just as we set a vicious example in erecting trade barriers in the form of high tariffs, which induced others to follow us, so we now ask other nations to join us in the attempt to undo the damage that our collective action has done. We want to break down all artificial and
    764
    excessive impediments put in the way of world commerce, not only in our own interests, but for the benefit of all others as well, as only by restoring the whole world can individual countries hope to remain economically healthy for long."
    That is the case for the first part of the Amendment which we are asking the House to consider, and I am glad to think it has not evoked any dissent from any quarter of the House up to the present. I am looking hopefully in the direction of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, who, I understand, is to reply.
    I turn now to deal briefly with the second part of the Amendment, in which we regret, as we do most profoundly, the absence from the Gracious Speech of any comprehensive and detailed proposals for national development, using the phrase in its widest terms, which are really commensurate with our domestic needs. There seems to be a lack of definition and precision about the economic proposals of the Government, and we are entitled to expect something more definite from them. I do not want, and the House would not expect me, to recite or to lay before them the major items of national reconstruction which we have placed before the House and the country and which indeed have been placed before this House by abler people than myself, but that policy is based upon the call to do something for the unemployed of this country and upon the urgent necessity of seeing that our national equipment in all its branches is at least as good as that of any other country in the world. It is also based upon, if I may borrow the words of Mr. Stewart, one of the Commissioners for the distressed areas, the necessity for replacing, bearing in mind the fact that we are an old industrial country, many of our national assets which the application of science to modern methods is making daily more obsolete. Again it is based upon the profound economic truth that if you have resources—and nobody doubts that this country has greater wealth and resources than any other—it is only an economy to refrain from using them if by so refraining you make it certain that they are going to be put to some other and better purpose. That is the general economic basis of the argument for national development, and it is as true to-day as when it was first announced in

    765
    the parable of the steward who wrapped his one talent in a napkin and buried it until his master came back again.
    An hon. Member above the Gangway here, speaking the other day, said it was not possible to understand the outlook and the experience of the unemployed unless one had been unemployed oneself, and I think he spoke a true word when he said that, but I would like to say further that those of us who represent constituencies where there is chronic depression, where, whenever we are in them, we are surrounded day after day by friends and acquaintances who are enduring the pinched, meagre and restricted life of the unemployed, which they endure with a patience that passes my understanding, know that, although we do not have the physical experience of the unemployed and do not have to endure their life, we do share their mental anxiety and outlook, and, therefore, we think it is intolerable that anything which is possible to be done, whether big or small, should be left undone which could bring some ray of hope and some relief to them in their distress.
    I wish, without any intention of giving offence, that some of His Majesty's Ministers would consider the form of the pronouncements which they make with regard to unemployment. We should not lose sight for a moment of the mental anxiety and hopelessness of the unemployed. I would quote the statement of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer during the Election, on 30th October, when he said:
    "The Government has plans that will keep the record level of unemployment up to its present mark."
    It is good news that the Government have plans. It carries us a long way from the days when the Lord President of the Council, then Prime Minister, assured us that it was no part of the Government's duty to take the initiative in providing work in any special area, but to consider sympathetically any proposal which might be made to them. While we welcome the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Government have plans, we would like to ask whether we know all those plans now and whether they are all in the Gracious Speech. The right hon. Gentleman said:
    "The Government has plans that will keep the record level of unemployment up
    766
    to its present mark, or perhaps more, for a period to come."
    What a grim, harsh message for the 2,000,000 who are still unemployed. I cannot believe that the ambition of the Government is limited to keeping the level of unemployment on its present basis for years to come, and I hope my right hon. Friend, who, we all recognise, is a man of action and energy, will tell us that that is not the limit of the Government's ambition, but that they have in mind something more than they have put in the Gracious Speech, something more ambitious than keeping things simply as they are. That would indeed be a policy of despair, because we know on the best economic authority that is available, and we know from the Government's own advisers that there is not much hope of things advancing from their present basis unless we can restore international trade.
    I would like to ask my right hon. Friend for a little further information on one or two points of practical importance. We all recognise with satisfaction that great and rapid progress is being made in doing away with the scandal of the slums. We are not, however, unaware that while that has been going on, there has been a check in building in other directions, with the result that in many parts of the country the evil of overcrowding, so far from having abated, has actually increased. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any idea of the progress that is likely to be made with regard to the development of the attack upon overcrowding? Is it the case that nothing can be done until the survey has been completed by the local authorities in April next and that after that there will have to be a period during which plans will be prepared, and then passed by the Department, so that it may be two years before anything substantial is done? In my own town, for example, where overcrowding is absolutely deplorable, where something like 25 per cent. of the population live under conditions of overcrowding, we should feel it intolerable that progress should have to be delayed for a long period of time such as seems to be possible under the present arrangement.
    I should also like to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is determined, and can give us an assurance, that this vital service shall not be held up for lack of

    767
    adequate financial help to the authorities. I am informed—in fact, I know—that there is in the mind of some authorities uncertainty on this point. It may be a misunderstanding, but it is felt that the financial assistance is to be limited in the main to those schemes which are devoted to housing and rehousing in flats and tenements on sites which may be expensive. The problem of overcrowding will not be solved until there is an adequate supply of houses which are within the reach not only of those who are low paid but of the lowest paid as well. We hope that it is my right hon. Friend's intention, as far as he is concerned, to see that nothing will stand in the way of that programme being carried out. National development does not consist only in major works such as housing and land development. It consists also in the improvement of our transport system in order to prevent the toll of carnage of the roads of which we hear every week, and in a careful study of every conveivable means that will do anything to help to lessen the general volume of unemployment. We welcome the proposal to raise the school age, for we believe that that Measure, coupled, it may be, with further part-time education, will be an important contribution towards helping the unemployment problem. If there is to be a great deal of enforced idleness over a long time, it is a common sense plan that it should be concentrated on those who are of an age to benefit from it, that is, those of an age to be educated; and, I would add, those who are entitled to retire from their labour and enjoy leisure after a life spent in industry.
    I rather regret the turn which the discussion took yesterday on the question of pensions. A good deal of fun was made of the fact that hon. Members above the Gangway had stated that they favoured a reduction of the pensionable age and an increase in the amount. I favour that, too; I know that many hon. Gentlemen opposite favour it, and I hope that the Government favour it. I hope that the last word on that matter was not said yesterday. I would like to ask the Government, as it is a matter of great importance, whether they have made any inquiry into the possibility of carrying it out, and whether, in particular, they have made, or will make, a survey of the exist-
    768
    ing superannuation arrangements made by public authorities and by private employers and wherever superannuation schemes are in existence, in order that they may know the volume and size of the problem which remains. From the indications of a private inquiry which is being made, I have some reason to believe that the problem may not be so unmanageable as it appears, and I invite my right hon. Friend to give sympathetic consideration to the question.
    Another matter in the same field, that is, in the smaller matters of national development, is the policy for increasing consumption which was argued in the House on Friday by my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby). He pointed out the futility of trying to solve the problem of poverty in the midst of plenty by doing away with the plenty, and emphasised the necessity of studying all means by which we can possibly increase consumption. He put his finger on one means by which we can do that; it was by abolishing the household means test. I agree with him in what he says on that point. If there is anything on which there is complete agreement in the House, it is that the charge for maintaining the able-bodied unemployed should be a national, and not a local charge. That being the case, I would like to ask what justice there is in maintaining a system that not only quarters a considerable portion of the cost of maintaining the unemployed on certain localities where unemployment is most severe, but further clamps it on those families in the community where unemployment is actually present? We do not know the intentions of the Government in this matter. Views have been expressed on it from dilerent parts of the House, and I cannot think that when they look into the matter they will consider it either justice or sound economy to maintain a system of that kind.
    I now leave the second part of our Amendment because my hon. Friend the Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) will, I hope, develop it a little more in detail. We have felt obliged to put the Amendment on the Paper because we were unable to discern in the Government's programme in regard to international commerce and development anything which, either in spirit, determina-

    769
    tion or scope seems commensurate with the immense needs of the present time for trying to get the international machinery of trade moving. Far less can it be said to be commensurate with the needs of the unemployed of the nation.
    4.36 p.m.
    Mr. W. ROBERTS: I beg to second the Amendment. In doing so, I ask for the special indulgence of the House. As a new Member it is all the more difficult for me to follow such an able and experienced speaker as my hon. Friend the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White). I shall resist the inclination, which I have observed is shared by other Members of the House, to tell them all about my election, but I would like to say that I owe my presence here to two causes. The first is that in the north of England, whence I come, the farmers feel that if they have not been forgotten they have at least been neglected. The second is that while many of my constituents live in a special area, we are all neighbours of it, and we have watched with dismay the policy of the Government with regard to their neglect of the tragedy of unemployment. The poverty in the towns of the north of England reacts directly upon the agricultural community, and there are more farmers besides myself who believe that in order to restore prosperity to agriculture we must restore purchasing power to our customers. The position of the farmer in the north, for whom I can speak with some little knowledge, is worse to-day than it was in 1929. Similarly, none of our great export trades have recovered the volume of trade which they enjoyed in 1929.
    These two facts mean that the average individual, whether he be an agriculturist or industrialist, is suffering to-day from what used to be called poverty, but what nowadays we call bad distribution or under-consumption. For the agriculturist it is under-consmption of the manufactured products of the town. For the industrialist it is under-consumption of the foodstuffs which the farmer produces. My hon. Friend who has just spoken has dealt fully and ably with the question of restoring our export trade. That is clearly the most direct way of restoring prosperity to our industrial districts and thereby restoring prosperity to agriculture. If that policy be not
    770
    possible, we are definitely thrown back upon the second part of the Amendment, that is, to a comprehensive policy of national development. If I may start with the problem as it faces the agriculturist, I would like to say at once that we recognise the efforts which the Minister of Agriculture has made. Those efforts, however, have not been successful, and the position is still very serious. I noted with concern and surprise that there was nothing in the Gracious Speech with regard to agriculture except unemployment insurance for farm workers. I support that proposition, and hope that the special arrangement of six-monthly hirings, which are common in the north of England, will receive special consideration when that Measure is brought in. I would like to remind the House that in the last four years 28,000 workers have left the land. Some of us on these benches have advocated a policy of land settlement and small holdings, and the Government, I understand, are considering plans by which 280 men may be replaced on the land. That just shows how little the policy of restoring prosperity has as yet succeeded in maintaining employment on the land, or of replacing men by settlement.
    I believe that the fundamental problem of agriculture not only in this country, but all over the world, is that of the under-consumption of food. In the north of England we specialise on livestock products, which are the most expensive products and most needed for maintaining physical fitness. In the Debate on the Address I have been surprised to hear so few statements with regard to agriculture, but there was one notable exception. That was the speech of the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby), and I find myself much in agreement with his statement. He pointed out that investigations which have been made recently by Sir John Orr and others showed that there was a great deal of under-nourishment among the workers. In fact, Sir John Orr went so far as to say that nearly one-half of the population were unable to purchase sufficient of the more expensive products, such as milk, eggs and meat. Nearly half the population—20,000,000 was his figure—are unable to buy sufficient of those products to keep themselves up to a maximum of physical

    771
    efficiency. There are many different ways of defining malnutrition. I should consider my farm stock was suffering from malnutrition if, as a result of their feeding, they were not at their maximum efficiency. If that be true of 20,000,000 of the population of this country it is a serious indictment of circumstances as they are to-day.
    The Minister without Portfolio made what I feel was a characteristic reply from the Government Benches. In the first place he took credit for the inquiries which had been made; in the second place he claimed that the Government's policy had increased consumption; and thirdly he found that there would be great difficulty in following out the suggestions made by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen. The words of the Gracious Speech tell us that special regard is to be paid to the distressed areas, and just as the Government may claim credit for this research done by Sir John Orr so they have investigated and explored the problems of the special areas and allied problems, and they have appointed committees and commissions, but in actual practice they have done very little indeed. As to the claim that the Government's policy has increased consumption, I have followed very closely the Government's agricultural policy, and what has increased consumption is the world fall in prices. The Government's policy up to now has been to try to prevent that fall and to maintain prices wherever possible. They have been rather unsuccessful in that policy, and therefore consumption has increased in spite of what has been done.
    I am not unmindful of certain small things which have been carried out recently, not unmindful of the school milk scheme. I myself have customers in the schools of Cumberland who refer to me as the tallest milkman in the world. I am not unmindful of that scheme, and I know that there are difficulties in extending the type of scheme which will make surpluses available for the classes which most need them, but if the boards tackled that job I believe they could do it. In West Cumberland there was a scheme by which milk was supplied to unemployed men and their families at very cheap rates—so cheap that the consumption was enormously increased. It
    772
    was only a small, experimental attempt, but it did achieve the result of getting families which had not known such a thing as fresh milk to drink considerable quantities of it. That scheme came to an end after the Milk Board started its operations. I believe abortive attempts have been made to do something of the sort in South Wales. If there were a determination to carry out this type of scheme it could be done, and the machinery of the various boards could be used for the purpose. I advocate these things not only from the point of view of the industrial consumer, but from the point of view of the farmer, because I am certain that is the only way in which our problem can be finally solved.
    The position in the North of England at present is a result of the poor purchasing power of our customers. We as farmers are driven to find markets further afield, and the bulk of our milk and milk products, which used to be consumed in the North of England, to-day find their way to London, and quite possibly hon. Members of this House consume some of them. That is expensive in carriage, it is inconvenient and it is undesirable from the farmers' point of view. We would rather sell our produce at our door, if our customers had the money to buy. I have tried to touch on two ways in which I think this problem of poverty in the North of England can be dealt with, first, by increasing our export trade, and, second, by measures to promote increased consumption, chiefly by cutting down the cost of distribution and by making special arrangements for special classes—the unemployed, the children under school age, expectant mothers, and so on.
    I believe there are two other methods by which the problem can be attacked. The first is by the policy frequently referred to as a policy of public works, and the second by the introduction of new industries into the North of England. The Commissioner for the Special Areas recently told us that within 100 miles of the centre of his area in the North of England there are 13,000,000 consumers, whereas within 100 miles of London there are 17,000,000 consumers, but the consumers within that radius of 100 miles in the North are either within the Cumberland special area or within the Tyneside special area, or within Lancashire, which is nearly as bad. There are thousands of

    773
    them on the means test, many other thousands who draw only the low wages that exist in the coal trade. Because we are poor, new industries do not come there. Because we have not the purchasing power, industrialists go to London and start their factories on the Great West Road. Poverty breeds poverty and prosperity attracts prosperity.
    I believe there is a place for a policy of public works. A policy of public works could break that vicious circle of unemployment and under-consumption and of low purchasing-power. There are two particular forms of public works which I should like to mention in passing. One is land drainage. Living as I do very near to the Scottish border I have never been able to understand why it is right to give a subsidy for land drainage in Scotland and wrong to give it in England, and if the Minister of Agriculture had been here I should have liked to have asked him the reason. The other form of public works is electrification. Both forms would permanently improve the equipment of the countryside. I ask whether the Government will not give us assistance for land drainage and speed up the electrification of the countryside, whereby our efficiency in production can be increased and the possibilities of starting small industries in the northern towns would be greatly assisted.
    The Government have made certain proposals with regard to railways and roads of which we shall hear more later, but if those proposals, especially those concerning the roads, are to throw a greater burden on the local rates they will defeat their own object, and I hope that that will not be the case. The right policy is to finance those public works by loans, but I agree with those who say that though a policy of public works and nothing else may stave off the evil day the unemployment will appear again when the work is finished, and I feel that we must carry on at the same time a vigorous policy of introducing new industries into the north. The Prime Minister said there was a moral obligation on industrialists who have benefited by Protection to put their plants in the North of England. I say that moral obligation rests on the Government. The conditions in many of our distressed areas are due directly, if not to the action of this Government, to that of previous Governments. We wanted munitions and warships, and in-
    774
    dustrial plant was developed which is now idle. The men were assembled in those areas at that time but are now left unemployed. From that point of view there is undoubtedly a moral obligation on the Government.
    I should like to draw attention to the reasons given by the Commissioner for Special Areas why new industries are not started in the North of England. He gave five reasons. The first is inaccessibility to markets. As I have tried to suggest, the potential market is there. The people are there, but they have not got the money to make it a profitable market. The second is high rates. That is certainly a matter which the Government can put right, can adjust, if they have the will to do so. The third is the fear of industrial unrest. On that I will cite the case of one town in the North of England with mixed industries which are not entirely dependent upon the export trade. In that town of Carlisle I do not recollect a single industrial dispute of any importance in the last 10 years. The fourth is the fact that for some years these areas have been suffering from industrial depression. Trade brings trade, says the Commissioner. That point I have already dealt with. Lastly, and this is the point upon which I wish to lay emphasis, there is the difficulty of obtaining finance with which to start new industries.
    When the special commissioners of the distressed areas were appointed an amendment was moved from these benches to give them the power to lend money to public utility societies. I ask the Government to consider the question of giving the Commissioners these powers now. There is a need for capital with which to start small industries. That capital could be provided through public utility societies, with dividends to be limited to a fixed percentage. That may be assisting private enterprise, but I say the Government has a moral obligation to assist private enterprise in those areas. I have been wondering what objections may be raised to this Amendment. It seems to me there may be three main objections. The first is that our suggestions are socialistic. Perhaps hon. Members above the Gangway on this side of the House will be able to persuade the Government that that is not so. In any case, the proposal to start a trading

    775
    estate on Tyneside is just as socialistic as the proposal that the Government should lend money to public utility societies. I myself do not think there is much chance that a policy of setting down beehives and hoping that the bees will swarm into them will be very successful. I should like something much more radical than just building a factory and hoping that an industrialist seeking one will put his industry there. Something much more searching than that is needed.
    Secondly, it seems to me that one of the great objections one meets with in asking for a vigorous policy in the North is that Members on the Government Benches think that Protection will eventually solve the problem. Protection, we did at one time hear, means work for all, and some of those hon. Members may think that in time that will happen. I do not see how protection, however, is going to assist the coal trade. You have your trade agreements, but any benefit which may have arisen from those has now been fully exploited. In answer to a question to-day it was stated that negotiations are now in progress with Peru and the Dutch East Indies. I do not think there is very much hope for the industrial North from those negotiations. Any benefit which may have been possible to obtain by unilateral trade agreements has now been obtained. If there is one district in the whole world which is likely to suffer from the policy of economic nationalism which has been adopted by the present Government it is the North of England.
    Lastly, I do appeal to hon. Members on all sides of the House to give this Amendment their careful consideration. The last objection which I feel may be raised, the last argument against what we are putting forward, is that this is in fact the Government's policy. If that is so—and I am a novice in the procedure of the House of Commons—if it is stated from the Government benches that this is what the Government intend to carry out, I ask "Why cannot they accept this Amendment?" If that is not possible I appeal to the Members on all sides of the House to give the matter very careful consideration. The North of England and the men and women who live there have played their part very fully in building up the greatness of this country in the
    776
    past. They have given their lives and work not only in the North but all over the Empire and all over the world, and I do ask for your consideration and your energetic support for a policy which will bring back some ray of hope to the distressed North.
    5.4 p.m.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: I am sure that the first thing the House would have me do is to congratulate very sincerely on its behalf the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) on his maiden speech. It was a speech of admirable lucidity on a very trying occasion—it was not very many years ago since I made my own maiden speech—and of much thought, and I am sure the House will wish to hear him on many future occasions. This Amendment was moved by the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White), in a more apologetic way than I have ever heard an Amendment moved before, both in its first part in dealing in international trade, and in its latter portion dealing with reconstruction at home. The hon. Member put forward a proposition to the House. He said that the Government should propose that full access be given in all markets under our control to all countries who will grant full access to us in their markets. He went on to say that he did not know whether that suggestion would be acceptable to any country, and indeed it is a suggestion which deserves some examination both in principle and in practice. I can tell him at once one country which would accept it on the spot. That country is Japan. If we were to promise Japan completely free access to the whole of our Colonial Empire and to this country, Japan, who knows perfectly well that we cannot compete with the products she makes, would be willing to grant us full access to her country.
    But there is a greater principle than that at stake. That is the principle of the most-favoured-nation Clause. If the principle which the hon. Member proposes were put into practice the mostfavoured-nation Clause would go. The most-favoured-nation Clause is the last legacy of the Cobden tradition. I think it is still very valuable in our trade. I have made an intensive study of it, particularly as it applies to the cotton trade. The abolition of the most-

    777
    favoured-nation Clause from agreements would lead, in the cotton trade, to an increase in our trade of some 150,000,000 square yards. Its abolition in countries which might make agreements with our trade competitors would lead to a far greater loss than that. It is a proposition which has some advantages and some disadvantages, but on balance I believe it would be the last stage in tariff warfare, and it would be a stage of that warfare in which we would take the initiative.
    We were the last people to impose tariffs. We did so reluctantly. Most people on these benches did so with great reluctance. I did myself. At the same time we had to do so because we found every other country had preceded us. If we were to take this step of cancelling the most-favoured-nation Clause, we should be taking the first step in another stage of tariff warfare. At present every trade agreement which the Government can make leads to a reduction of that country's tariffs, not only against ourselves but against other countries, and I for one on these benches welcome that development.
    May I examine the proposal a little deeper in practice The hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) the other day made an intensively interesting speech in which he drew a distinction between the export of consumers' goods and the export of capital goods. I believe he said, very rightly, that the two principal outlets for increased capital goods were the British Empire and Russia. I think the hon. Member for East Birkenhead would agree. But he also said that the areas most depressed in the country were the exporting areas. We can all agree there. The main exports which are depressed are coal, textiles, iron and steel—iron and steel much less depressed than hitherto, and coal and textiles the worst. Textiles are consumers' goods. The hon. Member who has just sat down said if we made a trade agreement with the Dutch East Indies he did not think it would be of very much benefit to the North. But the Dutch East Indies is the second largest textile market in the world. It is next to India, and China has now gone below it. If you go round the world, what is the real cause of the loss of that trade and many other trades too? That trade
    778
    is symbolic of our loss of consumers' goods throughout the world. Let nobody suppose that in practice we are ever going to get back a large share of the China market again, because she is developing herself and has Japan at her door. India now produces 85 per cent. of her own consumption in textiles. Most of the tropical countries of the East are beginning to produce for themselves. Russia and Brazil, the great markets of the past, produce entirely for themselves, and they are quite determined to go on producing for themselves.
    What steps can the Government take except to make agreements singly with country after country? I should like a proposition to be put forward for a new world economic conference. During the election I said I would support such an idea, but would there be at the present moment any chance of success for such a conference? I believe the hon. Member really began to look facts in the face only when he came to the second part of his Amendment, which dealt with reconstruction at home. There again he outlined several proposals, but he did not, so far as I can see, differ very strongly from the Government's policy. If I did not think I could get the sort of policy he outlined, I should not be on these benches. If I may make another friendly remark to the hon. Member who has just made his maiden speech, I should say that he must not expect to find that it is only on that side of the House that the most progressive people sit. You will find a very considerable proportion of our party here progressive, and indeed I do not believe he will find progress goes with party alignments in the least. The one thought that was continnually running through my mind during both the speech of the Proposer of the Amendment and of the last speaker was that I could not help wondering why they were not here helping us to put such a policy through.
    The hon. Member regretted the absence of a number of items from the Gracious Speech. If the Gracious Speech were to contain what everybody in this House wanted it to contain it would be a sort of portmanteau. Our attack on unemployment has gone some way in a comparatively short time. It took a century of higgledy-piggledy laissez faire capitalism to bring us to the stage which we have reached in this country. We have gone wrong. We have gone off the

    779
    rails. Now we have to reconstruct. All parties recognise that. Our housing policy is well on the way to reconstruction. You cannot reconstruct in a day or a week, and the great achievement of the term of the last Parliament was that we have at last returned to a point where we can say we are now in a position to reconstruct and are financially powerful enough to do so. If I did not think we could get that reconstruction I should not be standing at these benches.
    The main lines of reconstruction, as I hope to see it in the next few years, are these. I hope to see a land settlement scheme, not a very large one, because I do not believe it is desirable or possible. It entirely depends on whether you can make agriculture pay, and whether you can make it pay partly depends, as the hon. Member for Northumberland said, on whether we can improve our marketing schemes, and partly on whether we are prepared to offer sufficient Protection to agricultural products. I do not think you can divorce the two. Ottawa has led to a greatly increased consumption from this country. It has also led to the Dominions being willing to take immigrants again. Australia will probably be able to do so very soon, and I hope that migration will be started within the next year or two. I agree with what the hon. Member said about training estates. They are very desirable, but they ought to be accompanied, if necessary, by some measure of compulsion, in order to ensure that new industries are started in areas where they are most needed. The raising of the school-leaving age will be a definite contribution to a solution of these problems.
    There is another point, which I would discuss at a little greater length. It is the question of mass production and the turning out of young men of 18 years of age untrained for any form of skilled work. There are a great many factories in this country working overtime, of which they have reason to be ashamed, but it is not always their fault. They cannot obtain skilled labour, and the people who are working that overtime like doing so. That is a fact, although it is socially undesirable. The apprenticeship system has broken down, because it is such a temptation to parents to send children into mass production jobs to obtain the wages for a year or two and not to look into the future when those children will
    780
    be turned out untrained. I see a significant glance from the hon. Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson), and I agree with her. Sometimes they cannot afford to look into the future. It is desirable that something should be done to regulate and perhaps to restore the apprentice system.
    I throw out this idea as a possible contribution to the solution of the problem: Would it not be possible for those firms who turn out these young men at 18 and take on other children only to turn them out when they get to 18 years of age, to pay a levy towards the training of skilled workers, of which there is a real shortage? That training at present falls on the State, but it is not yet sufficiently developed by the Ministry of Labour. It would be very desirable. I will name one trade, a well paid trade on the whole, in which there is a shortage of skilled labour, and that is skilled engineering and fitting. The increase in the manufacture of aeroplanes is being regarded with great fear by many firms who are turning out other products and who are afraid that their workmen will be taken away to make aeroplanes. Aeroplane making generally pays higher wages because it can afford to do so. I believe that an improved training scheme for young men who are turned out of work in that way would be very desirable, and that the suggestion is worthy of the consideration of the Government.
    There are one or two other sides of unemployment which I hope will be attacked. Trade facilities, which were mentioned by the hon. Member in his maiden speech are one. He spoke also of the desirability of electrification. I am not sure that electrification leads as a rule to employment, but trade facilities are in the mind of the Government. At 7.30 to-night we shall pass to what is tantamount to a trade facility, in respect of the payment of something like £30,000,000 to the railway companies for development. A great road scheme is in progress. The plans are in. Many other schemes have been set in motion and will be set in motion, and I hope they will be co-ordinated. If that is not a great programme. I do not know what hon. Members want. Do they simply want the payment of very large sums of money on un-remunerative work which will, at the end of that work, leave people idle and adrift again? If they do not want that, I say

    781
    that the Government can vet every scheme which comes up, form schemes where possible, re-plan areas, and go in for its great housing programme and press that to a conclusion. It is true that some sorts of housing progress is slowing down. House building by private enterprise has nearly reached the conclusion of its boom and is being replaced by municipal house building. That, I believe, is a great programme.
    I will conclude by suggesting that there is not very much dividing ourselves from hon. Members on the Liberal benches. They do not any longer ask for Free Trade and I cannot see why they should not be sitting here. During the Election I received a good many documents from a body entitled "The Council of Action"—I think it has been called the "council of faction"—and a good many telegrams. They went into my waste-paper basket because they definitely asked me to give up my right of free representation of my constituency for no other reason. [Interruption.] It was the third question.
    Mr. DINGLE FOOT: Will the hon. Member spare a minute to say in exactly what way he was asked to abandon his right of free representation?
    Mr. CROSSLEY: Certainly. I was asked to join a group and to vote according to the majority decisions of that group.
    Mr. FOOT: Would the hon. Gentleman give the quotation?
    Mr. CROSSLEY: I have not the document with me.
    Mr. FOOT: I went into this matter exceedingly carefully and I found that there was no question of anything being issued to Members of this House.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: I believe there was no quibble. It was perfectly clear in that document that I was asked—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member will listen to the end of my sentence I will tell him. It was clear in that document that I was asked to attend a meeting of a group, in which I should be able to express any views if I wanted, but if a decision were taken by the group on any matter I was expected, if I were going to follow the Council of Action, to
    782
    follow the majority decision of the group. The whole thing was couched in terms of "I pledge myself," and I was not willing to pledge myself. As a matter of fact it was a most delusive document and proposal. It was no doubt the foster-child of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and its complete failure is best evidenced by the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is now going off to take a six months' holiday.
    It remains a fact that Members who sent in their election addresses without signing anything in that document sometimes got its approval. I did not even send in my election address; if I had done so the Council of Action would have found that it was at least as progessive as its own proposals. I believe that the verdict of the country in the Election was a verdict that you could find progress—
    Miss WILKINSON: Might I ask the hon. Gentleman this? If he claims that his election address was at least as progressive as the proposals of the Council of Action, is he prepared to do what I think he would do for the Peace and Reconstruction Council, and vote against his party, if necessary, to get it enforced?
    Mr. CROSSLEY: The hon. Lady was not in the last Parliament. If she had been, she would have known that two or three times I did that, and on a matter of principle I would do so again. This is a personal matter which is not really worth going into. The proposals of the Council of Action are not more progressive than those which I believe the Government will produce during the next three years. In only one item is there a difference, and that is in the Council's agricultural policy, but that, I believe, would lead to such high Protection, if their results were achieved, as to cut off something like £100,000,000 worth of our imported foodstuffs. Otherwise the Government's plan would, I believe, produce a programme just as progressive as that of the Council of Action. That is the real gist and meaning of the verdict of the country at the Election. It is for those reasons that I believe this Parliament will lead to real reconstruction, to which I wish hon. Members of the Liberal party opposite would give their constructive help.
    5.27 p.m.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: It would be intriguing to follow the hon. Member in some of the observations that he has made, but I hope that he will have the patience to sit for a time till I return to the glorious results of the trade agreements and to some of the proposals which he makes for a re-orientation of our industrial, economic and social life. At the moment, I want to deal fairly briefly with the terms of the Amendment and to review as briefly as possible, not ignoring any of the essentials, the results of the four years of effort of the past Government, who, I think it can be claimed, used almost every card in their political pack. I have listened during this Debate to the Prime Minister, the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), the Attorney-General and the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and scarcely a glimmer of light came to me as to what they anticipate doing in the next four years, so far as any fundamental change is concerned in the economic system that produces unemployment with all its evil consequences to the vast numbers of our people.
    There may be some doubt about this or that question of policy, but there is no doubt about one thing, which is that we have still 2,000,000 people unemployed. We are still spending £100,000,000 per annum in maintaining those who are unemployed through no fault of their own, and a vast proportion of our working-class population is still suffering from destitution and demoralisation. I have been in this House long enough to see a policy of unfettered Free Trade, when we had poverty and destitution, and a policy of half Free Trade and half Protection when there was still unemployment and destitution. For the last four years we have had full-blooded Protection and at the end of the period we still have 2,000,000 of unemployed. All that the Government have said in regard to their future policy is that they will pay special regard to the depressed areas, a policy of bits and odds and ends here and there. There is to be no fundamental attack upon the cause of unemployment. That must remain where it is during the Government's term of office.
    I want to see, not only the removal of international obstacles to trade, but the removal of the great obstacles of
    784
    rent, interest and profit, because I see no possibility of complete absorption of the unemployed until that side of our economic and financial life is dealt with by some courageous Government who really want to solve the problem. The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White) suggested that Capitalism and Socialism had been debated almost ad nauseam in this House. That is true, and I suppose that Capitalism and Socialism will be debated until finally Socialism is applied, for outside Socialism there seems to me to be no hope for the unemployed. There seems to be no hope even for the Liberal party, and I do not see any possibility of their retaining their identity very much longer. But, just as the Liberal party seems to have as many doubts as it has sections at the moment, so Members of the Government express doubt from time to time as to what they feel regarding the fiscal policy of the country. The Prime Minister, speaking on this question since the adoption of tariffs, said:
    "Though we have adopted a tariff policy, this has not been done in order that we may join in the building of ever higher tariff walls. That way lies the destruction rather than the development of international trade. The fallacy of prohibitive tariffs lies in the assumption that a country may thus make itself prosperous in a poverty-stricken world. This is a delusion."
    Those of us who sit on these benches entirely agree with that. The Prime Minister, therefore, has little or no confidence in the efficacy of tariffs as a means of solving our economic or unemployment problems. The Secretary of State for the Colonies, whom one really ought not to quote, because he means so little to anyone, said:
    "They must not assume that mere tariffs were going to affect the 2¾ million unemployed. He only supported tariffs to get rid of them."
    That is exactly what one would expect from the right hon. Gentleman. The President of the Board of Trade, a very responsible Minister in the Government, and one who, after all, has an important political past, speaking in Newcastle, in the centre of shipping, where they have suffered perhaps more acutely than in any other part of the country as a result of tariffs, said:
    "Now our national policy has brought us right into the industrial sphere. We cannot

    785
    help that. Once we step into the world of high tariffs we put an end to that very freedom of international exchange which is the essence of British industry and commerce."
    The result of our having entered, as the right hon. Gentleman said, into the heart of the tariff world, was an announcement to-day by some Minister or other that another subsidy is to be given to the shipping industry. They knocked the shipping industry out of existence, or at least aimed a deadly blow at it; they recuperated it by a subsidy of £2,000,000; and now a further subsidy is proffered by the Government. One of the shipping magnates, referring to the policy of Protection pursued by this Government, said that that industry had lost approximately 2400,000 per annum in freights through subsidised sugar, £375,000 through subsidised wheat, £200,000 through the subsidised restriction of bacon imports, and similar amounts in the case of meat and coal. It is no wonder that certain sections of the shipping industry are by no means prosperous.
    We find ourselves in this position as regards the fiscal policy of the country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has no confidence in Free Trade, the Prime Minister has no confidence in Protection, and the President of the Board of Trade has less confidence in national development schemes; and I am anxious to know whether the Minister of Health is going to tell us of anything in which any Minister in this Government has any confidence, except the capitalist system which has produced all the problems with which they are confronted. The Government during the past four years have used every card in the political pack. Now, apparently, they are relying on some confidence trick, and we are anxious to see what it is. In any case this is their system. It is a system that has produced unemployment, and they are responsible for and to its victims in all parts of the country. It does not matter whether or not they persist in supporting or preserving Capitalism or any other ism; they have the responsibility for about 20,000,000 of our people, and something infinitely more tangible than the progress they have so far made ought to have been forthcoming in this Debate.
    They have had four years of office, with unlimited dictatorial power. Their main proposals have been applied in some form
    786
    or other. When they were returned in 1931, they asked us to wait until the World Economic Conference arrived, when they would remove all world obstacles, and would usher in a new heaven and a new earth. Then, of course, Ottawa was going to be a bright Imperial spot. The application of Protection would put on the final touch. All these things have been attempted, and we ought to see exactly what the net result has been. There are committees, commissions and commissioners—a sort of faith, hope and charity—but we are still confronted by those 2,000,000. I want to make a very brief reference to the efforts that the Government have made and how they have made them. The ex-Prime Minister, referring to the World Economic Conference, said:
    "I place great reliance, great hopes upon the World Economic Conference."
    Later he said:
    "We must not fail."
    Later still he said:
    "The Conference is going on. It is as lively in spirit as any I have seen. It has sat down to business."
    The next that we heard of the Conference was the then Prime Minister reading the funeral ovation. Apparently the World Economic Conference was drowned in its own spirit, and, so far, nothing further has been heard of it. Then we had the Ottawa Agreements. I regret that the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley) has left his place. The President of the Board of Trade, the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade boasted in June or July, when dealing with the Board of Trade Estimates this year, of the marvellous results of the Ottawa Agreements, and the hon. Member for Stretford made reference to them also. I wonder if the hon. Gentleman has sat down to examine the figures and see what they really mean in terms of trade and employment, and how nearly our 1929 or 1930 trade with the Dominions has been restored. The Parliamentary Secretary, in the course of the Debate, gave a multitude of figures which nobody could follow, and on the face of it it did appear as though wonderful progress had been made; but what are the facts?
    The President of the Board of Trade and the Parliamentary Secretary declared that, while our exports to six countries, Canada, Australia, New Zea-

    787
    land, India, South Africa and Southern Rhodesia, in 1932 were little more than £100,000,000, by 1934, as a result, it was declared, of the Ottawa Agreements, our exports to those countries had gone up to £126,000,000, a colossal increase of no less than 26 per cent. Those figures were perfectly accurate, but what did they mean in fact? In the first place, the President of the Board of Trade started in 1932, when our exports to those countries were the lowest for, perhaps, 10 or 20 years. He made his start right at the bottom of the trough, and declared that there was a wonderful increase of 26 per cent. in two years. But to those six countries, to which we sent in 1934 £126,000,000 worth of goods, we sent in 1929 £222,000,000 worth; so that, despite the Ottawa Agreements, despite all the efforts of the Government, we are a very long way from the normal trade of 1929, and it seems to me that there is little to boast about in that particular. I hope the hon. Member will look up these figures before he repeats the statement he made to-day, and gloats over the magnificent results of the Ottawa Agreements.
    The Government applied Protection in 1932, and again we heard the President of the Board of Trade telling the House of the magnificent results of the application of Protection. I do not want to worry the House with a large number of figures, but it is interesting to note that, despite the application of their full fiscal and other economic and Imperial policy, in the present year, 1935, the estimate of our exports is round about £410,000,000 to £420,000,000 worth of goods. In 1929, however, which I repeat was regarded as a normal year, our exports were £729,000,000, and the increase in 1935 as compared with 1932, when the world was at the bottom of the trade trough, is round about £50,000,000. That is not necessarily due at all to Protection; it is largely due to a general improvement in world trade; but, if the same rate of progress is to be maintained, namely, £50,000,000 in three years, until we get back to the 1929 figures, it will be another 18 years before our exports reach £729,000,000, and in those 18 years scientific progress will be such that we shall have 18,000,000 people out of work. That seems to be the maximum that the Government hope for at the moment.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: I entirely agree with all the figures quoted by the hon. Gentleman, but he left out one. We are today, in our exports, enjoying a greater percentage of world trade than we were in 1932, and also a greater percentage than we were enjoying in 1929.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: After all, the hon. Gentleman's correction, if it can be termed a correction, really means nothing as applied to the problems confronting this country. Even the Minister of Health, though he is too old a Parliamentarian to attempt to reply to any of the substantial points that have been raised, would find it extremely difficult to satisfy Members sitting in any part of the House who have any feeling for those 2,000,000 people who are unemployed and for those untold numbers 'who will subsequently become unemployed as a result of the further use of mechanisation and applied science. The problem here seems to me to be that, with such results, Members of the Government should be so satisfied, so happy, so indifferent to this great human problem; but that seems to be the only thing one can extract from their speeches and their general demeanour.
    We have seen the results of the World Economic Conference, the Ottawa Agreements and the application of Protection. What about home trade? In 1934 the President of the Board of Trade said that our home market had reached the point of saturation. A few months since he said we had not quite reached saturation point, but he could only express himself in terms of restrained optimism. In point of fact, he did not expect that our home internal trade would expand very much more. What is he willing to do for the purpose of stimulating home trade? He is now a supporter of Protection but he has no confidence in Protection. He thinks our home market has reached saturation point and yet, when confronted with the question of public development schemes, he said, "We are abandoning this policy once and for all." Where, therefore, do the Government stand? It seems to me that they have only one policy, a policy of trading estates or a policy of transfer, which they explain in about 17 different languages. Even their policy of transfer is sabotaged by another policy pursued by the Government. There are voluntary agencies in various parts of the country attempting

    789
    to transfer unemployed persons from distressed areas to less distressed areas. They take first a son or daughter, for whom they find employment, and then they endeavour to transport the families of the young men and women for whom work and houses have been found, but the moment the voluntary agency wants to transfer the family the Government means test commences to apply. The transfer policy is a hopeless proposition so long as the means test remains in existence. The ex-Prime Minister, who has no solution for any one of these problems, declared in 1933 that:
    "If the greater facility of mechanical invention means a greater volume of production with a substantially less number of employed, we shall have to face a very serious problem of permanent unemployment."
    He seems to have settled down to that. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said not too long since that there was little or no hope of reducing the unemployment figures to low numbers for about 10 years. The present Prime Minister is as optimistic as his colleagues. What are we to expect? The Minister of Health might tell us all about it. He is a very useful servant to the Tory Party in the propaganda department and every other department. Now that their general fiscal, Imperial and other policies have been applied, and they have no belief or confidence in one fiscal system or the other, or in schemes of national development, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us exactly what the Government intend to do during the next four years to avoid an increased rate of unemployment instead of the decrease that they hope for but never expect to get. We have almost reached the stage where the word "Ichabod" ought to be written over the Tory headquarters.
    I want to make two very brief references to questions relating to drainage in various parts of the country. The Ouse Catchment Board operates in one of the most difficult areas in the country from the point of view of lack of drainage. Schemes have been produced and ultimately the Board has satisfied the Minister that the work ought to be undertaken at once. I am only referring to it as one of the schemes which might have been dealt with years since but which the Government in their stupidity have refused to take in hand. The Catchment Board has now produced a scheme which
    790
    the Minister of Agriculture has accepted, but he only offers a grant of a third of the total of £1,190,000. He knows that the county borough councils are hostile to the scheme because they know they will have to pay some £600,000 of the total expenditure. Therefore work is held up. Will the Minister of Health not consult with the Minister of Agriculture and see whether they cannot effect a compromise with the county boroughs by increasing the grant, no matter how slightly or how largely, so that, instead of the work being spread over 10 or 15 years, it may be put in hand at once? Three times in 18 months thousands of people have been homeless. We do not want to see a repetition of that. If the work is to be held up for 15 years, all the people in the area will be drowned before the scheme is finally undertaken.
    There is the case of the 3,000 acres of land in Hampshire to which so much publicity has been given. Dr. Addison suggested that power should be taken to deal with any land where the owner refused to utilise it himself or to allow other people to make use of it. He was sneered at and the Land Utilisation Act has been disregarded by past Governments and, so far, by the present Government. Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Minister of Agriculture whether he will utilise the Land Utilisation Act to take over the 3,000 acres from this absentee owner in Hampshire so that useful work can be found for people who are really anxious to get back to work as soon as possible?
    Another question that I should like to put is in reference to credit as affecting Russian trade. It is well known that during all the years that Government guarantees have been made Russia has never once defaulted. It is, as the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby)) says, the one country to which we may supply for long periods large quantities of capital goods. I believe it is the stupidity of hon. Members sitting behind Ministers who have intimidated them into withholding decent terms to Russia. Conditions have changed in that country. While in 1931 they were indebted to foreign countries to the extent of £140,000,000, their liabilities to-day are less than £12,000,000. It is no longer necessary, therefore, for them to pay 11 per cent. for guarantees of credit and discounting their bills, for they can pick

    791
    and Choose in the world markets where the best terms can be obtained. The opportunity is there and the Government ought to take it. They ought very largely to expand our trade with that country and provide a goodly proportion of work for our people. With regard to the Amendment before the House, it will be helpful to remove international obstacles but it will not be a solution. To initiate national schemes of development will also be helpful but will not be a solution. Unless and until this or some other Government will go a long way towards reducing rents, interest and profits and increasing the spending power of the multitude of workers we shall still have a large army of unemployed. For that reason we shall not oppose the Amendment but we shall not support it in the belief that it is going to solve all our problems.
    5.55 p.m.
    Mr. LOFTUS: In the early part of the hon. Member's speech there kept coming back to my mind a remark made by the seconder of the Amendment that under-consumption was really the cause of unemployment. I believe we all make a wrong approach to the problem of unemployment. That is the assumption that the objects of human life and of the State is to find everybody work. I am sure if we would only approach the problem from a new angle and try to increase consumption, in the process of doing that we should largely solve unemployment. I seemed to detect also in the hon. Gentleman's speech the idea that there is only a limited fund of wealth or money and that, therefore, you must abolish the profits in order that there should be more money or wealth available to the mass of the people. I am sure that that also is a wrong approach. The proper angle from which to look at the problem is that there is a vast untapped reservoir of wealth in potential production which must immensely increase year by year, and that we must rid our mind of the conception of a limited amount of wealth which has to be shared out.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Surely the hon. Member is not representing me accurately. My point was that, if your machine is so capable of producing in large quantities but the spending power is not there so that the goods can be
    792
    consumed, unemployment will become inevitable and, even if you export goods which cannot be consumed here because of the absence of spending value, you cannot even buy the goods that are imported.
    Mr. LOFTUS: I have not time to follow the hon. Member in his argument, but if he will refer to former speeches of mine he will find I have expressed much the same idea he has just now. I intervene in the Debate because for many months past if have been struggling with the problem of international trade. I realise that it is so intensely linked up with the question of peace and war. I have felt for some time, and have expressed it in this House and in every newspaper that I could get it into, that unless we arrange to allow the discontented nations, Germany, Japan, Italy, to import freely we are bound to intensify the position in such a way as to lead probably to world war. I have come to the House to these debates on the Address hoping to find definite ideas which would help to solve the problem, but I have not heard any practical proposals. I have listened to the official criticism of the Labour party and it boils down to this, that the only solution is international Socialism, but surely, even if one admitted—and I do not admit it—it is a counsel of utter despair, because the economic pressure in Japan, Italy and Germany is increasing month by month. We see the pressure forcing action by Japan in China and by Germany and Italy elsewhere, and something has to be done within the next year or so, otherwise that pressure will lead to war. Incidentally the Attorney-General pointed out that the semi-Socialist States to-day had not solved the problem. I would add that every country has to contribute something to the solution, and that the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics could make a very big contribution. Italy has to import raw materials in increasing quantities year by year to keep up the standard of life of her people, poor as it is. She can obtain many of those raw materials from Russia, and it would be interesting to know whether the Government of that great country is willing, as a contribution to the peace settlement to-day, to make an offer to Italy and say, "We will take your machines and your manufactured goods, and when peace is re-established

    793
    we will take these in payment for the raw materials, metals and oils and so on which we have in abundance and can export to you."
    I listened to the speech of the Mover of the Amendment, the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White), and I frankly confess that I was disappointed. I had hoped for some definite proposals to cure, or to suggest the lines of cure of this cancer which is destroying the peace of the world, and I could not find any. I wanted to know, for instance, the attitude with regard to the necessity of establishing some international currency and price stabilisation. What is his proposal? Does he believe in going back and stabilising on the old Gold Standard? Does he believe that the United States will de-sterilise gold, coin it, mint it, issue it and raise prices in the United States, stop their export trade, and import vast quantities of manufactures? That is the only way it can be established, paying for them by the export of their gold, and I do not think that you would find the States will do it.
    Take another question. What about prices? International conferences constantly point out that the price level of commodities and raw materials is too low. What is the policy behind the Amendment on this matter? Does the hon. Gentleman propose to do anything about international debts? The hon. Member pointed out that the economic blizzard of 1930 had caused high tariffs and protection everywhere. What was the cause of the economic blizzard? Was it not possibly due to the vast mass of international debts of all kinds and to the fact that the creditor nations would not receive goods in payment? Can he give us any indication of how to restore the international trade? It is no use talking of lowering tariffs to-day unless you settle simultaneously the question of international exchange and assure debtor nations that their financial systems will not be wrecked in future by the power of the creditor nations to demand gold in lieu of goods in payment. I notice that an hon. Friend opposite is very impatient, and rightly so, but I have put these points forward because I feel intensely that we have to get international trade going in much greater abundance than we ever imagined in the past. We have to give every nation the assurance that it will be able to import its necessities
    794
    if it works and produces exports for them.
    Mr. MacLAREN: Did you not advocate tariffs during the Election?
    Mr. LOFTUS: I never mentioned tariffs once during the Election. That is utterly beside the point. We have to devise something new, and I can only lay down certain principles which I think might help. The principles I would suggest are, first, the old truism that exports can and must be paid for by imports, that any nation exporting goods must be prepared, directly or indirectly, to take the goods offered in payment by the importing nation. If you accept that principle ipso facto it stops the creation of new international debts and the trading in gold, which is what I desire. It means that you have an international money system which will force the exporting nations to take payment in the currency of the importing nation which it can only use for the purchasing of the goods of the importing nation. What I suggest is that with a very greatly increased flow of international trade allowing for the fullest export—and the only object of export is to import for the requirements of the people—you must have a technique which will allow very full imports without damaging essential home industries. I am not speaking of this country only, because in every country of the world people have discovered that modern mass production machinery enables them to produce a greater abundance of wealth in manufactured goods than is produced by mere agricultural goods. We shall have to invent that technique, and I should be quite willing to consider even such things as import boards—I know that that might be called Socialistic, but it does not matter. I believe that we shall come to that ultimately in the Milk Marketing Board—with the control of imports as well as home production.
    My final point is that imports and international trade on a large scale would be for the benefit of humanity. It would mean in every country in the world—not in this country only—a very great increase in the standard of living. That is inevitable. That brings me back to my original point that if you seek to increase consumption you will solve, in the process of doing it, both the problem of international trade and the problem of unemployment. I will con-

    795
    clued with this remark which, I hope, will not give offence to hon. Members opposite. In listening to these Debates, both in this Parliament and the last, I have felt that we were hampered by the inheritance of the 19th century ideas. I feel that many minds are closed because they brood over and hold to the fixed dogmas of that very dogmatic century. [An HON. MEMBER: "Such as?"] The Opposition, the Labour party, inherited from the 19th century all the fixed dogmas of Marx. The Liberal Opposition inherited, I will not say dogmas but the tendency towards international Free Trade. I believe that all those doctrines are out of date in this new and modern world where science is daily increasing the productive power, and where the possibilities of science in the next few years are colossal. We have to approach these problems with new minds. Therefore, I support the National Government because we have full liberty to discard old fixed ideas and to put forward any ideas which we believe will contribute to the advancement of this country and the world.
    6.10 p.m.
    Mr. DINGLE FOOT: We on these benches entirely accept the definition that the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) gave just now of our attitude as a tendency towards a freer international trade. The House ought to be grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) and my hon. Friend the Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts)—and I should like to add my congratulations upon that admirable maiden speech we have heard to-day—for introducing a note of reality into this Debate on the Address. I must say that we on these benches have listened with a certain amount of impatience to the rather academic Debate on Socialism and anti-Socialism which we have heard during the past five or six days. We had a speech yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Hackney (Mr. H. Morrison) whom we are all glad to see back in this House. After having given an exposition of Socialist principles, he devoted a part of his speech to proving how very Socialistic were some of the leaders of the present administration. I entirely agree with him. If one
    796
    wished to see how close the two Front Benches above the Gangway are drawing, one has only to look at the words used last night by the right hon. Gentleman on the subject of foreign trade. He said:
    "If our industries were publicly owned the controversy about tariffs would go. We should control our import and export trade as a nation. If we wanted to import we should import, and if we did not want to import we should not import. That would be an infinitely more straightforward way of doing things than tariffs and quotas and subsidies or agreements between capitalists themselves."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 9th December, 1935; cols. 679–80, Vol. 307.]
    I take it from that that the right hon. Gentleman was advocating a system of import boards, but for the life of me I cannot see how that system is any different in principle from the system of import quotas which has been practised by the present Government for the best part of the last three years. There may be certain differences in machinery, I agree, but in each case you have the regimentation of trade. Whether it be an import board or a quota you have someone in authority, the Minister in one case and the board in the other to decide exactly how much bacon we should purchase from the Danes in any given year and how much meat from Argentina. The machinery is different, but I submit to the House that there is absolutely no difference in principle. If the result had been different and the party above the Gangway had made their way as a result of the election on to the Treasury Bench, there would not have been very much difference in the trade policy of this country and the people would have soon found that new Morrison was only old Elliot writ small.
    In this Amendment we are putting forward an entirely different point of view from that of the Government or of the party above the Gangway. We are asking for greater freedom of trade and for a greater stimulus to industry within our own frontiers. It is useless to deny—and we do not seek to deny it—that the Government have won a great victory at the polls and a very much greater victory than most people expected. I share the view that has been expressed by a number of hon. Members in this Debate that really what it amounted to was a vote of confidence in the Prime Minister. I think that the Government would be making a great mistake if they took it

    797
    as being a complete endorsement of every item in their programme and in their record. Some hon. Members during the last day or two have pointed out quite rightly that there was scarcely anyone in the industrial constituencies, whether they were for the Government or whether they were against it, who had defended the way in which the means test is being administered in their particular division. I do not suppose that there is an hon. Member opposite, except hon. and right hon. Members who sit on the Treasury Bench, who would go to his division and say that he was entirely satisfied with the administration in his own part of the country.
    I give that only as an example. I think there has been and there is now a very strong feeling not only on this side of the House but on the other side as well that we need a very much more vigorous policy in order to stimulate industrial recovery in this country. We do not deny that there has been a reduction in unemployment and that there has been a certain measure of trade recovery. The Government may take credit for that, as they did most successfully at the General Election. I have never sought to deny that there has been a considerable reduction in the figures on the live register, but the effects of that recovery, such as it is, are not felt equally over the country. There is still a very great disparity not only between the depressed areas and the rest of the country but between one part of the country and another. In Greater London only one in 14 of the industrial population is now unemployed; in Scotland the proportion is one in five, in Wales one in three, and we have heard in this Debate that there are a great many areas where the proportion is very much larger than that.
    If you want to see the other side of the picture you have only to look at the very ominous rise that has taken place in the last three or four years in the figures of those drawing Poor Law relief. In my constituency, in September, 1931, the number of those drawing poor relief, with their dependants, was 4,158, and in September of this year it was 8,737, an increase of more than double. If you take the whole of Scotland the figure for 1931 was 189,661 and in September of this year 341,654, an increase of something in the neighbourhood of 80 per cent.—[An HON. MEMBER: "Ninety-
    798
    three per cent."]—in the numbers of those who, with their dependants, were living on Poor Law relief in Scotland. I am not making the error of saying that those figures are necessarily additional to the figures on the live register. I admit that the figures are not strictly comparable. While a certain number may have been re-absorbed into employment the fact remains that the Poor Law figures, which have increased so steadily in the last three or four years, throw a very sinister light on the condition of those who are so unfortunate as to remain unemployed. It also shows that their position is deteriorating and that whatever may be happening to their more fortunate comrades they themselves are sinking deeper and deeper into misery and destitution.
    We are putting forward the proposition, which we shall continue to put forward in season and out of season during the lifetime of the present Parliament, that the only permanent way to bring back prosperity to this country is by recapturing our overseas markets. We are told of the comparatively trifling improvements which have taken place from month to month. In the first 10 months of 1929, up to the end of October, British exports, in round figures, were of the value of £701,000,000. In the first 10 months of this year the figure was £396,000,000, leaving a deficit compared with 1929 of £304,000,000. One does not have to look very much further than that to see the reason why we have still a very high unemployment figure in Scotland, Wales, and in many other industrial districts of this country which used to live by export trade. Whenever this point is made by Liberal speakers some spokesman for the Government is sure to respond by talking about trade agreements. We cannot help feeling that these trade agreements have a much greater political value than they have a commercial value. They figure very largely in the speeches of the Home Secretary and the President of the Board of Trade or, if they do not put them in their speeches, they put them in their letters, because they are most accomplished letter writers.
    Let us look at the value of these agreements. They have been the stock-in-trade of Government speakers for two or three years. Whenever the question of overseas trade is raised in the House or in the country these trade agreements with

    799
    foreign countries are trotted out. Let me take the trade agreement countries. I am not now referring to the Ottawa Agreements, which have been referred to by speakers from these benches, but the trade agreements with foreign countries. I have worked out the figures of nearly all the trade agreements made since 1933, and it is a fair comparison, if we want some idea of the value of these agreements, to compare the figures of British exports in 1932 with the figures in 1934. In 1932 our exports to the trade agreement countries amounted in value to 118.87 million pounds and in 1934 to 125.64 million pounds, an increase in those years for all the trade agreement countries of 6.77 million pounds. I want to be perfectly fair to the Government. I admit that those figures include Soviet Russia and Germany. There were particular circumstances in connection with Soviet Russia and Germany, the embargo, in one case, which was imposed in 1933 for a short time, and the peculiar economic conditions in Germany. Therefore, we can leave out of account Soviet Russia and Germany. In each of those cases there has been a decrease. Leaving Soviet Russia and Germany out of account and taking the other trade agreement countries, our increase in exports in 1934 as compared with 1932 was only 12.18 million pounds. I am not saying that that amount of extra trade is not worth having, but it is a perfectly fantastic argument to trot out when the Government are asked what they are going to do to recapture the £300,000,000 of export trade that we have lost since 1929. Additional export trade of £12,000,000 is a mere flea-bite compared with the trade lost during the past six years.
    The question that I should like to put to the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply is, how much further this process of trade agreements is going to go? We were told at Question Time to-day that negotiations are now proceeding with Peru and the Dutch East Indies. How many other trade agreements do the Government contemplate? How many invitations have they received from foreign countries and in how many cases will they themselves take the initiative in opening conversations with a view to trade agreements? There has been some reference in the Debate to the United
    800
    States of America, where President Roosevelt has taken powers from Congress to cut his tariff by 50 per cent. in making trade agreements. The United States has been making trade agreements throughout last year. She has already made agreements with seven countries, including European countries, and is in process of making several more. Why cannot we do something in that direction? If we could get a trade agreement with the United States, that very great market in which we used to sell such a large quantity of our manufactured goods, it would be worth more to British industry, particularly the textile industries, than all the former trade agreements put together. Why is it that no attempt to bring about such an agreement has so far been made by His Majesty's Government?
    Let me say a few words on what was said by the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Crossley). He said that the proposal put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for North Cumberland would involve the cancellation of the Most Favoured Nation Clause. We wish to make it clear that the cancellation of the Most Favoured Nation Clause altogether is not what we desire, but if the process of trade agreements is to be carried much further it does seem obvious to me, and I think a great many other hon. Members take the same view, that we shall have to have some modification of the Most Favoured Nation Clause. I am speaking from memory, because I did not know that the point was to be raised, but I think it will be found that such an exception was made when trade agreements were made in 1923 with the Baltic countries, Esthonia and Latvia. Those agreements were excepted from our most-favoured nation rights. It is along those lines of special exception in the case of commercial agreements, particularly multilateral agreements, that we can best get round the Most Favoured Nation Clause.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: Has the hon. Member considered how such exceptions could be carried so far without immediately raising up retaliation on the part of other countries? My belief is that you cannot bring about these exceptions without almost immediately raising widespread retaliation on the part of other countries with whom we trade.
    Mr. FOOT: Probably so if you proceeded only by way of bilateral agreements, but the risk would be very much less if you proceeded by means of multilateral agreements. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman in his reply will tell us whether the Government have entirely ruled out of consideration proceeding by multilateral trade agreements. We put this forward as the long-term policy, and as we believe the only effective long-term policy, for reviving industry and employment in this country. I am not going to deal with the proposals for national development which have been made from these benches. There are hon. Members in all parts of the House familiar with their own district who could of their own knowledge mention projects which would enrich the country and would have the effect, at any rate for a time, of diminishing unemployment. The sum total of our policy as expressed in our Amendment is that we want to see a policy adopted which will not restrict enterprise but will encourage it. Right through the last Parliament the keynote of the policy generally associated with the Minister of Agriculture was restriction. Again and again the emphasis was laid on restriction of production. Powers were given to the Minister or to a marketing board to say to the farmer: "You shall not be allowed to produce more than a basic quantity." That is a policy which we wholly reject and which we did reject in the last Parliament. We want to see a consumers' policy such as the one advocated by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) a few days ago and by my hon. Friend the Member for North Cumberland in his maiden speech to-day.
    I do not want to stand between the House and the Minister of Health, but I should like to make one further reference to the speech of the hon. Member for Stretford. He stated that during the Election he did not answer the question of the Council of Action. He said that he was asked to pledge himself to follow the majority decision of the group, and that he would be abandoning his representative function if he did so.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: Free representation.
    Mr. FOOT: That he would be abandoning his right of free representation. I sent for a copy of the questionnaire, and I gather that his objection was to
    802
    the third question in the questionnaire. The third question reads like this:
    "Do you pledge yourself that you will on all occasions consistently support and vote for this policy even should the Government of the day fail or refuse to carry it out?"
    Mr. CROSSLEY: That is in conjunction with the second question, which says that you pledge yourself to agree to work in co-operation with the decisions of the council.
    Mr. FOOT: The second question was:
    "Will you, to whatever party you belong, join an inter-party group of members similarly pledged and undertake on all issues which concern the carrying into effect of this policy to act in conjunction and co-operation with that group to bring, the utmost pressure to bear on the Government to implement the policy?"
    The hon. Member was asked to commit himself not to a caucus or to any group to decide on a policy, but to say whether he would work with an inter-party group in order to see the policy carried out.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: I doubt very much whether that was the meaning.
    Mr. FOOT: I myself never had any doubt about the meaning of the questionnaire, but I imagine that there were people who had the same doubts as the hon. Member. Before I dealt with the questionnaire I got into touch with the organisation and asked whether there had at any time been any question of giving orders to Members of Parliament or tell them what interpretation they should put on the policy should they be returned. I was told that it had never been under consideration, that there was no question of issuing a Whip or giving orders to anybody.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: What is the point in the whole thing?
    Mr. FOOT: The point is the same point that is made over and over again at every election when we are asked whether we are in favour of a certain policy or proposal. The hon. Member was asked to say that, and the difficulty which he found existed entirely in his own imagination.
    Major PROCTER: Suppose the policy involved the ruthless use of tariffs, how would you get along?
    Mr. FOOT: The answer is that it did not. If the hon. and gallant Member

    803
    looks he will find that that phrase does not occur anywhere. We are putting forward the Liberal Amendment to the Address, and we make no sort of apology for putting it down or taking up the time of the House in discussing it. If we were not here in this House the voice of Liberalism would never be heard within these walls. Yesterday we had a speech from the right hon. Member for South Hackney and a very moving peroration. He told us all that Socialism meant to him. I ask hon. Members above the Gangway to believe me when I say that to us Liberalism means just as much and is just as vital as Socialism is to them. After the General Election we cannot help being conscious—naturally I am—of certain gaps which have been created in our ranks. In several cases our colleagues in the last Parliament were defeated not by candidates of the Labour party but by candidates belonging to the Conservative party. We bear the Conservatives no sort of malice on account of that. Representing as they do an entirely different creed and point of view, they are entitled to oppose us if they choose and beat us if they can. We shall endeavour in the constituencies concerned to overturn the result at the first opportunity. Meanwhile we can congratulate them on their temporary success.
    But we cannot congratulate them on their allies during the General Election, some of whom, while protesting their own devotion to Liberalism, did all they could to bring about the defeat of Liberal candidates in other constituencies. We had a speech the other day from the Home Secretary. He is very good at quoting the former speeches of other people. Let me give one or two quotations from his own utterances. On 8th November, 1935, as reported in the "Manchester Guardian" the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "He admitted that there were too many Conservative members in the House of Commons."
    It will be interesting to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether that is still his view. Although he was of the opinion that there were too many Conservative members in the House of Commons he nevertheless sent his letter or, shall I say, his coupon to the whole of the 450 Conservative candidates who stood at the Election. How true it is of the right hon. Gentle-
    804
    man and his followers that circumstances alter cases. The Home Secretary a day or two ago in this House said:
    "It is idle to argue in what proportions you are going to find this or that party in support of this Government of national co-operation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th December, 1935; col. 166, Vol. 307.]
    The right hon. Gentleman did not always take that view. I have here an extract from a speech he made on 8th December, 1918, as reported in the "Times." Speaking at York he said:
    "Mr. Lloyd George had complained of the unreasonableness of the criticism that his Government was likely to prove in social policy a reactionary government, but it was Mr. Lloyd George himself who had consented to the plan by which the next House of Commons should contain twice as many Tories as Liberals."
    I wonder what the Home Secretary would have said if the proportion had not been two to one, but ten to one. But that was the arrangement to which the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues lent themselves at the last General Election. Let me say a final word about our own position. I know that in our endeavour to rebuild the party and the movement to which we belong we shall have many obstacles and difficulties to encounter in the next few years, but we comfort ourselves with the reflection that we can look back on a very long history and that these things have sometimes happened before; yet we have always managed to survive. The Prime Minister is fond of quoting from Sidney Smith. Let me also quote from Sidney Smith, who in referring to the state of affairs a century ago said:
    "From the beginnings of the century to the death of Lord Liverpool was an awful period for those who ventured to maintain Liberal opinions, and who were too honest to sell them for the ermine of the judge or the lawn of the prelate. A long and hopeless career in your profession, the chuckling grin of the noodles, the sarcastic leer of the genuine political rogue."
    That might almost have been written of the present time. Whatever may be said of us and whatever gibes may be cast at us on the smallness of our numbers we shall continue to make our own independent and individual contribution to the proceedings of this House. We shall continue to resist on every occasion we can the growing powers of the executive and its growing stranglehold over Parliamentary government in this country. As we are doing in this

    805
    Amendment we shall lose no opportunity of insisting on the vital importance to this country of expanding our overseas markets, and in the meantime of using every effort in order to expand our own national resources and bring immediate relief to the unemployed and the depressed areas. We have had many invitations issued to us during the last few days—one was issued across the Floor of the House to-day. We decline all these invitations without thanks. We propose to preserve our separate identity as a political movement. We do not propose to be the hangers-on or the galley slaves of any other political party. Although there may be temporarily only a small handful of Liberals in this House we are yet able to say
    "All is not lost,
    Our banner torn, though flying
    Streams like a thundercloud against the wind."
    6.42 p.m.
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): Something seems to have gone wrong with the junior Member for Dundee (Mr. Dingle Foot). I do not propose to follow him in the latter part of his speech because I have only a few minutes left in which to reply, and other important matters are to be raised this evening. We have had a most interesting Debate and an excellent speech from the hon. Member for Northern Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts). He certainly did not address the House in anything like the spirit of the junior Member for Dundee. His speech was very interesting because it was a surprise to me to find that there had been a Liberal win in any part of the country. The hon. Member is responsible for that occurrence. He gave us two reasons for his victory; and I would remind Liberal Members that neither one of his reasons had anything whatever to do with their programme. He said that he won because there were a number of disaffected farmers and a certain amount of disappointment in certain special areas, but he did not claim—and I was not surprised—that his victory was in any way due to any particular Liberal programme or policy. After hearing the hon. Member my own view is that it was largely his own personality and powers which secured him his seat. I am sure that we are all glad to have him in the House of Commons, especially as some of
    806
    us remember his father who served here and did such fine work.
    The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White) opened the Debate in a moderate and persuasive speech. I must comment upon one or two statements which he made. He said that during the last two days we have debated the question of Socialism and Capitalism but had reached no definite conclusion. I must remind him, as he and his friends apparently have forgotten the fact, that there was a Division last night in which victory was secured against Socialism by 242 votes. I was surprised to hear an hon. Member on the Labour side say that they were going to vote for the Liberal Amendment because they did not believe in it. Certainly that is a handsome return as far as the Labour party are concerned. I am sure we all regret, especially as this Amendment has come from the Liberal benches, the absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). He ought to be piloting this Amendment. We have heard many statements during this Debate about what people said in the last Election, but I think the most poetic utterance of all was the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs to the effect that the result of the Election meant that winter was not over, that there was still a keen chill in the air and spring had not yet arrived. I suppose it is in consequence of that fact that the right hon. Gentleman has quite properly gone to a much warmer climate.
    I wish to comment on one or two of the statements in this Amendment, and I must do so rather hurriedly because there is so little time at my disposal. In the first place, the Amendment complains of the absence of constructive proposals for absorbing unemployed workers into industry by initiating international co-operation for the progressive reduction of obstacles to trade. I have listened carefully this afternoon to hear what are the complaints of hon. Members opposite and what proposals they themselves have to make in reference to this matter. As I understand the position, the programme of the Government has been before the country and has been adopted by a large majority and I think it is now the responsibility of anyone who wants to make any suggestion concerning it or to displace it, to state exactly what their own pro-

    807
    posals are. Having heard what the hon. Member for East Birkenhead had to propose it seemed to me that it all came to some suggestion, very ill-defined, of a conference in some part of the world or another. With that single exception I have heard nothing definite proposed this afternoon by hon. Members opposite. I would remind them, on the other hand, of the real efforts which were made for such a conference by a man who was held in very high respect in this House, the late Mr. William Graham. He worked hard for a tariff truce conference and actually got one convened in Geneva in February, 1930. It is interesting to recall that as a result of that conference a Convention was drawn up under which the Powers concerned were to pledge themselves not to increase the existing protective duties for a period of years, but by January, 1931, only 12 States had agreed to ratify that Convention, while 10 had made increases in their tariffs during the progress of the negotiations, three of these having conditionally signed the Convention. The project, as hon. Members will recall, was abandoned owing to the impossibility of reaching agreement.
    What have been the results of our own tariff policy and of the agreements which we have made with 19 other countries It is all very well to criticise what has been accomplished, but it would be better if those who have criticisms to offer had also practical suggestions to make. I have obtained from my right hon. Friend figures showing the results of the 19 agreements which have been secured by the Government during the last two years and which have led to the reduction of foreign tariffs, the repayment of debts due to United Kingdom traders and the provision of exchange to pay for current trade. These results are very interesting and are well worth having from the point of view of the country as a whole. In the first six months of 1935, the exports to the foreign countries with which agreements were then in operation, were greater by over £7,500,000, or 17 per cent., than they were in the first half of 1933, when these agreements were not in operation. Compare that result with the increase in exports to other foreign countries, which was £5,000,000, or only 9½ per cent.
    I can assure those who have submitted this Amendment that in carrying out this
    808
    method of agreements we are following out the desire of the League of Nations Assembly itself, which passed a resolution in September, 1935, saying that in their judgment this was one of the best ways of achieving the object which we all desire. I sum up on this point by saying that our tariff policy and the trade agreements that have followed it have achieved several things. They have checked the upward tendency of foreign tariffs against us; our adverse balance of payments has been wiped out; and we have again become the foremost exporter of manufactured goods in the world. Our employed population is the highest ever recorded, and, on top of it all, the import duties are contributing some £30,000,000 annually to the national revenue. That is an achievement which I am sure the House as a whole would not desire to minimise, as hon. Gentlemen opposite seek to do.
    I turn now to the last part of the Amendment, which complains of the absence of a comprehensive policy of national development. What I heard on that subject this afternoon seemed to me to be our old friend "We Can Conquer Unemployment," all over again. As regards the policy of the Government, we, equally with every other section in the House, desire to develop and to reorganise wherever necessary our national resources and to improve national conditions. Inasmuch as I have been invited to state the policy of the Government in this matter, I desire at once to say that finance need be no obstacle to any sound and solid scheme. That statement, of course, could not have been made two years ago. It can only be made now because, thanks to the efforts of the Government in many respects, confidence has been restored, our credit is good and money is plentiful.
    Questions have been put concerning the action which the Government propose to take in regard to particular schemes, but as I have only a few minutes left I must confine myself to one matter in regard to which a great contribution has been made to the employment situation in the country. I refer to the present housing position. I make this assertion—that the Government's policy in this respect has had a profound effect in decreasing unemployment. Building generally, and particularly house-building, is now producing results and providing employment on a scale hitherto unknown. At the end of

    809
    June in this year the number of people insured in the building trade and at work had reached the figure of 865,290. That, I think, is a wonderful contribution. It has been suggested by various speakers during the last two or three days that there is some danger of the Government's efforts in this direction being relaxed. Such, of course, is not the case. It is true that the demand for houses for sale may be less during the next year or so. But, to counteract that, we must take into account, in calculating whether our building activity will continue or not and in making an estimate for the next three years, the various plans that we have in connection with slum clearance and the relief of overcrowding.
    I hope I am not too optimistic, but I do not think it would be unreasonable to say that there is every possibility that we shall have, at any rate, the same amount of house building in one form or another during the next three years as we have had in the past few years. I think that activity will be directed in the right directions and will meet a great need of the present time. Many people have spoken of the need which exists for houses to let at rents which will be within the means of the lower paid workers. I assure the House that I shall do all I can to help in the achievement of this important object. I am sure it will be gratifying to hon. Members, in whatever part of the House they may sit, to learn that small houses to let at low rents are now being erected at the rate of 90,000 a year, a higher rate than has been recorded at any previous time. That, I suggest, shows the right tendency in more than one respect because of the 90,000 houses 40,000 are being built by private enterprise and are small houses of the "C" class. I shall be publishing to-morrow a return showing that this output may be expected to increase steadily, the last week in November having been particularly productive, not only in the case of the large authorities but in the case of a number of the small authorities distributed all over the country.
    I think I can also make this statement: It can now be said that houses provided in relation to slum clearance and relief of overcrowding will be available at lower rents than have been practicable under any previous scheme. What is equally important, they will be made
    810
    available for those who are now living under bad housing conditions, which could not have been said about other housing accommodation provided with the State assistance by local authorities. It has not always been the people who have the greatest need who have secured the accommodation provided. The House can be assured that in our slum clearance scheme and in our work to abolish overcrowding we shall proceed vigorously in the direction I have indicated. The hon. Member for East Birkenhead expressed the hope that it would not be necessary to wait until next year for plans for dealing with overcrowding. I have already suggested to local authorities that they should not wait for the result of the survey that is being made before they present their proposals and I am glad to tell the hon. Gentleman that already a number of authorities have placed proposals before us.
    The hon. Member asked another important question which has also been put by many other people who are interested in housing. It has been pointed out that generous subsidies are to be given in the case of flats built for the purpose of reducing overcrowding—and in the case of flats the subsidy is, of course, automatic, because they cannot be built to let at the required rents without State assistance—and the question has been asked, "What about cottages?" Cottages are, of course in a different position, but I can say this to the House that the Act enables ample subsidies to be paid wherever they are needed, and there is certainly no bias in my mind in favour of flats as against cottages. I believe that I shall administer that part of the Act in a spirit which will commend itself to the House.
    Questions have been asked in relation to the health proposals of the Government. They are very germane to a discussion on national development, because our plans are of little avail unless we build up on the foundation of a healthy, vigorous and educated nation, and it is for that reason that the Government have given prominence in their programme to an ordered plan for the improvement of the health and social services. In my judgment the fact that so many women die in child-birth is a tragedy. While the causes of our comparative failure in this matter are not yet fully understood, we are giving unremitting

    811
    attention to that part of the problem. But we do know that there is an urgent need of a salaried midwifery service in order to ensure for every woman who requires it skilled care in child-birth. I would like to tell the House that a Bill for this purpose is now being drafted and we hope to introduce it early next year. I shall in the interval consult with the appropriate associations, including representatives of the important voluntary associations who are interested.
    Another question has been put to me in relation to two other proposals the Government have made. There is a very obvious gap in our system of health insurance which we propose to fill—the period between the time when a boy or girl leaves school and his or her 16th birthday. It is a critical period for future health. They are no longer cared for by the school health service and are not yet eligible for medical benefit under the insurance service. The other proposal is in relation to the old age, widows' and orphans' contributory pensions scheme. Anxiety certainly plays a part in causing ill-health, and I hope in this matter to get support from every quarter of the House.
    At present many people who work on their own account are unable to enter the pensions scheme although their circumstances do not differ from those who are eligible. We shall introduce legislation to deal with this important matter, and steps are now being taken in that particular connection. Anyone who has had experience of pension legislation knows that it is complicated, and to work out details and put the proposals in the form of a Bill must necessarily take some little time; but the necessary work is being done as rapidly as possible, and we hope to present these measures to Parliament at an early time in the Government's period of office.
    I regret that I am unable, owing to the arrangements that have been made, to answer in more detail many of the matters that have been put before the House. I will endeavour to pass on the suggestions of hon. Members to my colleagues who are particularly associated with some of the proposals that have been made. I must apologise to the House for having dealt so rapidly with
    812
    many of the matters that have been brought forward this afternoon. I would like to give this general assurance in connection with all these points of national development. Undoubtedly the Government of the day has received an unprecedented verdict. It is in many respects a verdict also for the democratic system in this country. Everyone may have views about the result of this Election. Probably some of the most interesting views of all we shall never hear in public. One thing is clear. In an age when so many people in so many countries are either deriding or sneering at our democratic system we have given a great example to the world of how millions of people can go and vote, free, unfettered and unchallenged, and express their own decision and will. It is for the good of the country that we should have a firm and stable Government for the next four or five years. That will be of benefit not only to this country but to the world, and, speaking, I am sure, for all my colleagues, we regard this unprecedented verdict not only with some satisfaction—we are not in the habit of being unduly elated over our opponents—but as a great responsibility and a great trust, and we are determined to do our best to carry out the will of the people.
    Mr. LOGAN: Could the right hon. Gentleman give us any information with regard to the voluntary system of insurance? Is it possible for these Measures to come in the next Session?
    Sir K. WOOD: I am afraid not; I should like it myself, but the hon. Gentleman will see the long programme that we have got. There is the education programme and there is my Maternity Bill, and I cannot expect to have everything in the first year. But no time will be lost. As the hon. Gentleman knows—he is skilled in national insurance—it will take some time to work out a scheme, but I hope that we shall push forward as rapidly as Parliamentary time will allow, because I think that one of the things that has appealed to the country has been this very scheme.
    Question put, "That those words be there added."
    The House divided: Ayes, 143; Noes, 350.

    Division No. 3.]

    AYES.

    [7.10 p.m.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Potts, J.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Price, M. P.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Hurdle, G. D.

    Quibell, J. D.

    Adamson, W. M.

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

    Ammon, C. G.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Riley, B.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Ritson, J.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

    Banfield, J. W.

    Holland, A.

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Barnes, A. J.

    Hollins, A.

    Rothschild, J. A. de

    Barr, J.

    Hopkin, D.

    Rowson, G.

    Bellenger, F.

    Jagger, J. H.

    Salter, Dr. A.

    Benson, G.

    Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

    Sanders, W. S.

    Bevan, A.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Sexton, T. M.

    Broad, F. A.

    Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Silverman, S. S.

    Bromfield, W.

    Jones, J. J. (Silvertown)

    Simpson, F. B.

    Brooke, W.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

    Buchanan, G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

    Burke, W. A.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Cape, T.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

    Charieton, H. C.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Chater, D.

    Lathan, G.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Leach, W.

    Stephen, C.

    Cocks, F. S.

    Lee, F.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Compton, J.

    Leonard, W.

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

    Leslie, J. R.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Daggar, G.

    Logan, D. G.

    Thorne, W.

    Dalton, H.

    Lunn, W.

    Thurtle, E.

    Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

    Macdonald, G. (Ince)

    Viant, S. P.

    Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    McGovern, J.

    Walker, J.

    Day, H.

    McLaren, A.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Dobbie, W.

    Maclean, N.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Ede, J. C.

    MacNeill, Weir, L.

    Westwood, J.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    White, H. Graham

    Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

    Mander, G. le M.

    Whiteley, W.

    Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)

    Marklew, E.

    Wilkinson, Ellen

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Marshall, F.

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Foot, D. M.

    Mathers, G.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Gardner, B. W.

    Maxton, J.

    Williams, T. (Don Valley)

    Garro-Jones, G. M.

    Messer, F.

    Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Montague, F.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Gibbins, J.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Owen, Major G.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Paling, W.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Parker, H. J. H.

    Sir Percy Harris and Sir Hugh

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    Parkinson, J. A.

    Seely.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J.

    Albery, I. J.

    Bracken, B.

    Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

    Alexander, Brig.-Gen. Sir W.

    Brass, Sir W.

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (E'kn'hd)

    Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

    Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Aske, Sir R. W.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

    Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.

    Assheton, R.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Craddock, Sir R. H.

    Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

    Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

    Critchley, A.

    Astor, Visc'tess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Bull, B. B.

    Crooke, J. S.

    Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

    Bullock, Capt. M.

    Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Burton, Col. H. W.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Butler, R. A.

    Cross, R. H.

    Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Crossley, A. C.

    Balfour, G. (Hampstead)

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Crowder, J. F. E.

    Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

    Cary, R. A.

    Cruddas, Col. B.

    Balniel, Lord

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Culverwell, C. T.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Cautley, Sir H. S.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C.

    Barrie, Sir C. C.

    Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester)

    Davison, Sir W. H.

    Baxter, A. Beverley

    Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.)

    Dawson, Sir P.

    Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    De Chair, S. S.

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

    De la Bère, R.

    Bernays, R. H.

    Channon, H.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Birchall, Sir J. D.

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Denville, A.

    Blair, Sir R.

    Christie, J. A.

    Dodd, J. S.

    Blaker, Sir R.

    Clarke, F. E.

    Donner, P. W.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Clarry, R. G.

    Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

    Borodale, Viscount

    Cobb, Sir C. S.

    Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Cochrane, Comdr. Hon. A. D.

    Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Colfox, Major W. P.

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    Bower, Comdr. R. T.

    Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir G. P.

    Dugdale, Major T. L.

    814

    815

    Duggan, H. J.

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Duncan, J. A. L.

    Latham, Sir P.

    Reid, D. D. (Down)

    Dunglass, Lord

    Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Dunne, P. R. R.

    Law, R. K. (Hull, S. W.)

    Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

    Eales, J. F.

    Leckie, J. A.

    Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

    Eastwood, J. F.

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Eckersley, P. T.

    Lees-Jones, J.

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Leigh, Sir J.

    Rowlands, G.

    Edge, Sir W.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

    Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)

    Ellis, Sir G.

    Levy, T.

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Elliston, G. S.

    Lewis, O.

    Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

    Elmley, Viscount

    Liddall, W. S.

    Salmon, Sir I.

    Emery, J. F.

    Lindsay, K. M.

    Salt, E. W.

    Emmott, C. E. G. C.

    Little, Sir E. Graham-

    Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

    Sandys, E. D.

    Entwistle, C. F.

    Loder, Captain Hon. J. de V.

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

    Errington, E.

    Loftus, P. C.

    Savery, Servington

    Erskine Hill, A. G.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Scott, Lord William

    Everard, W. L.

    Lumley, Capt. L. R.

    Selley, H. R.

    Fildes, Sir H.

    Lyons, A. M.

    Shakespeare, G. H.

    Fleming, E. L.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

    Fox, Sir G. W. G.

    MacAndrew, Lt.-Cot. Sir C. G.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Fraser, Capt. Sir I.

    M'Connell, Sir J.

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Fremantle, Sir F. E.

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

    Furness, S. N.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

    Simmonds, O. E.

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    McEwen, Capt. H. J. F.

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

    Gibson, C. G.

    McKie, J. H.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

    Maclay, Hon. J. P.

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Gledhill, G.

    Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

    Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

    Gluckstein, L. H.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

    Magnay, T.

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Goldie, N. B.

    Maitland, A.

    Somerset, T.

    Goodman, Col. A. W.

    Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

    Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

    Gower, Sir R. V.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Graham Captain A. C. (Wirral)

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, E.)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Maxwell, S. A.

    Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Spender-Clay Lt.-Cl. Rt. Hn. H. H.

    Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

    Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)

    Spens, W. P.

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

    Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Drake)

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Storey, S.

    Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Stourton, Hon. J. J.

    Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N. W.)

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

    Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

    Guinness, T. L. E. B.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Gunston, Capt. D. W.

    Moreing, A. C.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Guy, J. C. M.

    Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H.

    Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

    Hamilton, Sir G. C.

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Hanbury, Sir C.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

    Tate, Mavis C.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Harbord, A.

    Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Munro, P. M.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Harvey, G.

    Nall, Sir J.

    Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

    Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

    Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H.

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

    Touche, G. C.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Train, J.

    Hepworth, J.

    O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Tree, A. R. L. F.

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Turton, R. H.

    Holmes, J. S.

    Palmer, G. E. H.

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

    Patrick, C. M.

    Walker-Smith, Sir J.

    Hopkinson, A.

    Peake, O.

    Wallace, Captain Euan

    Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

    Peat, C. U.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir R. S.

    Penny, Sir G.

    Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

    Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

    Howitt, Dr. A. B.

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Warrender, Sir V.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

    Peters, Dr. S. J.

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Petherick, M.

    Wayland, Sir W. A.

    Hunter, T.

    Pilkington, R.

    Wedderburn, H. J. S.

    Hurd, Sir P. A.

    Plugge, L. F.

    Wells, S. R.

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

    Jackson, Sir H.

    Porritt, R. W.

    Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

    James, Wing-Commander A. W.

    Power, Sir J. C.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Jarvis, Sir J. J.

    Pownall, Sir A. Assheton

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

    Procter, Major H. A.

    Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel G.

    Jones, L. (Swansea, W.)

    Purbrick, R.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Keeling, E. H.

    Radford, F. A.

    Womersley, Sir W. J.

    Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

    Raikes, H. V. A. M.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

    Wragg, H.

    Kerr, J. G. (Scottish Universities)

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

    Kimball, L.

    Ramsden, Sir E.

    Kirkpatrick, W. M.

    Rankin, R.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

    Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

    Mr. Blindell and Major George

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Rayner, Major R. H.

    Davies.

    Main Question again proposed.
    7.23 p.m.
    Mr. LEES-SMITH: We wish, in accordance with the statement made by the Opposition Leader this afternoon, to initiate a short debate on the war between Italy and Abyssinia, in the light of the new information that has been published in the Press in the last 24 hours, and I think it is important that the Debate on the Address is still open, so that we may continue the discussion of this subject on the Address instead of under some special urgency Motion. There have been very full reports, published first in the French newspapers and now in all the newspapers everywhere, which assert that they indicate the general line of the proposals at present being put forward as a basis of settlement. The Prime Minister this afternoon, when asked about the accuracy of these reports, said that there was considerable difference in matters of substance, but I noticed very carefully that he did not in fact say that the reports were mere idle conjecture. It is clear that these reports are based on a leakage, as he said, and do tell us a large amount of what is in the mind of the Foreign Secretary and, I presume, of the Government, in the proposals which they are going to make.
    We do not know yet the full degree of accuracy of these reports, but if they are accurate up to only 50 per cent., they are a contradiction of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and, more serious still, or just as serious for our purpose, they are an abandonment of the foundation upon which the Government fought the last Election and as a result of which they practically came to an understanding with the British people, all parties combined, and as a consequence of which understanding they sit where they are to-day. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Largely as a consequence of that understanding. One of the main arguments was their unqualified support of the League of Nations, and the whole effort of the Government was to show that, so far as that question was concerned, their support of the League of Nations was more unflinching even than ours had been.
    I would point out at the beginning that the Government stand in a very special responsibility on this question. There would probably have been no election at all if this question had not arisen. They
    818
    chose support of the League of Nations as an issue on which they asked for a national mandate. They now have a national mandate, and I say that not only have they a national mandate to support the League of Nations through thick and thin, but they are bound by that mandate, and that when there are suspicions aroused by these reports that what they are finally going to do is to put forward proposals which are a kind of compromise between the League of Nations and the Imperialist desires of Fascist Italy, those are proposals which, if they are half true, are quite unlike anything they put before the country at the Election. In those circumstances it is the duty of the Opposition, before an irretrievable step has been taken, to give the Government an opportunity either to repudiate any idea that such proposals have been suggested, or to correct them before it is too late.
    On this matter it seems, to me we ought to be guided by a very simple principle. Italy has been condemned by the League of Nations under Article 11 as a wanton aggressor, and the simple principle which we ought to support is that a wanton aggressor shall not in any way or in any degree profit by the aggression of which she has been found guilty. Indeed, I go further, and I say that finally, when the League of Nations authority is established, as it will largely be established if we maintain our position in this critical issue, the aggressor will be expected to pay reasonable compensation for the material damage she has caused. We do not go so far as that at present, but we say that it is our duty, it is the duty of the Government, in accordance with the mandate for which they asked at the Election, to make it clear that Signor Mussolini shall in no way profit because he has chosen war instead of choosing to put his claims to the arbitral decision of the Council of the League of Nations.
    The reason why we have raised this Debate is that the terms of the settlement proposed have been published. In order to deal with the most authoritative statement of those terms that we have, I will read a summary of them from this morning's "Times" and then explain why, if these terms are 50 per cent. correct, it is impossible for this country to make itself responsible for them with-

    819
    out utterly discrediting itself in the eyes of the world. These are the reported terms:

    "1. Italy would receive Danakil and the eastern part of the Tigre, including Adowa and Makale, but not Aksum.

    2. Ethiopia would obtain the port of Assab in Eritrea and a corridor to that port through Italian territory, or alternatively the port of Zeila.

    3. Italy would receive in the south all the territory included between the frontier of British Somaliland, the eighth parallel of latitude in the north and the 36th degree of longitude in the west, including most of the Ogaden.

    4. Within her new frontiers Ethiopia would preserve her full independence and would receive League assistance for her development and the carrying out of necessary reforms."

    I will take these terms in order. By the first of them Italy, although Signor Mussolini has distinctly said that he is not going to lay claim to anything but the non-Amharic portions of Ethiopia, will receive Tigré. She will thus receive possession of one of the most purely Amharic blocks of the whole country, and if we accept that we are not only going further than the League of Nations, but further than the principle which Signor Mussolini has himself laid down. Ethiopia is then to receive the Port of Assab, with a corridor through Eritrea. That corridor would always be at the mercy of Italy. This is no concession, therefore. All that it means is that Ethiopia lays her neck upon the Italian block. The last important statement made here is that Italy is to receive Ogaden up to the 36th degree of longitude in the west and the eighth parallel of latitude in the north. That is to say, Italy is to receive territory which, after she has started a war, she has not herself yet been able to win, territory which it is by no means certain that she will ever be able to win on her own account. I have been reading for some time since the war began all the military appreciations in various newspapers by highly expert correspondents of military experience upon the prospect of the Italian campaign, and I have learned from them that it is generally believed that, if Italy is to succeed, she must succeed quickly, that she must have practically forced the Ethiopian army to a decisive issue and defeated her, not only before April, when the full rains begin, but
    820
    probably well before the end of January, when the rains are about five times as heavy as they are between October and January.
    I would ask the Government a particular question. The 36th degree of longitude in the west is mentioned. The reports in the newspapers, obviously with a good deal of inside information, have been for weeks pointing out that there has been a disagreement in opinion between the British Foreign Office representatives, who wish the line to be fixed at the 40th degree of longitude, and the French representatives, who wish it to be fixed at the 36th. If that be so, according to these reports we are not only giving away to Italy a large part of territory which she is unable to win, but we are giving away the most extreme demands that have yet been put forward. If Italy is to receive this fresh block, it means she is to receive a number of towns, she is to receive the chain of lakes to the south of Addis Ababa, and she is to receive a frontier which will bring her nearer to Addis Ababa and will make her a perpetual menace to whatever of Abyssinia is finally left. These are the proposals, and it will be well to see, if anything like them are accepted, if they are half way to the reality, how inconsistent they are with the principle laid down by the Minister for League of Nations Affairs in the Debate of the 23rd October:
    "There is no question of a bargain in some unknown way, and still less is there any question of some Imperialist deal, as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to suggest."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd October, 1935; cols. 222–3, Vol. 305.]
    I hoped that, that statement having been made in the House only a few days ago, it would be enough to repudiate any vestige of truth in this report in the "Times." I can understand the difficulty of the Government. I can understand the dilemma in which they find themselves. The dilemma is obviously this: They wish to support the League of Nations and at the same time they do not wish to endanger the position of Signor Mussolini and the Italian regime. That is admittedly and publicly stated as the policy of the French Government. If the British Government come to an agreement with them on anything like those lines, it means that now, as in so many years gone by, they are following the policy of France instead of our own.

    821
    Here we have once again an example of that dualism in the Government's foreign policy to which the Leader of the Opposition referred. Dualism and indecision have been the curse of our foreign policy for the last four years, and it is here once again.
    Our view is fairly clear; it is a view we have always taken. You have to make the choice between the League of Nations and the maintenance of the safety of the present regime in Italy. It may well mean that if Signor Mussolini receives a serious diplomatic defeat, his whole situation may be endangered. Our view is simple. It is that it is the duty of the Government to maintain the understanding with the British people and with all parties in the British State on account of which they are now in office. It is the duty of the Government to stand unequivocally for the whole Covenant of the League of Nations and to leave the internal affairs of the Italian people to settle themselves.
    There is one last consideration. I cannot see how anything like these terms can be accepted by the Negus unless by the threat that his almost unarmed troops shall be met by bombs and poison gas. They cannot be accepted with any willingness by the Negus, and I cannot see how they are finally going to be accepted by, at any rate, a large number of nations in the League of Nations. I can quite understand the Government and France making an arrangement which will carry a number of countries with them in support of these proposals, but there are bound in the end to be all those countries which are able to take an independent view, which will condemn the proposals as a betrayal of the League and of the principles upon which we asked the verdict of the people. If anything like these proposals goes forward, it can result in the whole of this story in which we were playing a leading part in September utterly and finally ending in the discredit of the British name.
    7.42 p.m.
    The MINISTER for LEAGUE of NATIONS AFFAIRS (Mr. Anthony Eden): I can speak again only with the leave of the House, but, if I may have it, I think I can best serve the House and also the international situation, which is, after all, our chief concern—
    822
    or should be—if at the outset I recall to the House the origin of the conversations which have been taking place in Paris in the last few days, because there seems to be some doubt and no inconsiderable misunderstanding as to them. I would remind the House that last November, when the Co-ordinating Committee of the League, that is to say, the body of 50 members who have been co-operating to carry out the sanctions which have been imposed, agreed upon the sanctions which are now in force, it at the same time specifically approved of attempts to find a basis of discussion between the two parties. It particularly welcomed the suggestion that His Majesty's Government and the French Government should seek to find such a basis. I would like to quote one or two speeches then made in order that the House may understand the work upon which we have been engaged and why we have been engaged upon it. M. Laval then said:
    "I shall therefore stubbornly pursue my attempts, from which nothing will deter me, to seek for elements that may serve as a basis for negotiation. I have thus taken the initiative in the matter of conversations, without the slightest intention, however, of putting the results into final shape outside the League. It is only within the framework of the League that the proposals can be examined and decisions reached."
    Again, our own Foreign Secretary said:
    "It is common talk during the last few days that there have been conversations taking place between Rome, Paris and London on the possibilities of such a settlement. There is nothing mysterious or sinister about those discussions. It is the duty of all of us to explore the road of peace. That is what we have been doing and that is what we shall continue to do. Up to the present the conversations have been nothing more than an exchange of tentative suggestions. They have had as yet no positive outcome. There is, therefore, nothing to report. If and when these suggestions take a more definite form we shall take the earliest opportunity to bring them before the Council in the most appropriate manner."
    The House will observe that that is entirely consistent with what my right hon. Friend said the other day in this House during the Debate on the Address:
    "Nothing could have been made clearer by France and ourselves than that we were working within the framework of the League that we wished at the earliest possible moment to share our special responsibility with the other members of the League, and that any proposals that might emerge from these or other discussions must be acceptable to the three parties to the dis-

    823
    pute —the League, Italy and Abyssinia."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1935; col. 343, Vol. 307.]
    That declaration of policy remains the policy of His Majesty's Government at the present time. I will not weary the House, but I could give extracts from other speeches which were made in that debate at Geneva approving the suggestions that the British and French Governments should undertake this unenviable responsibility. The Prime Minister of Belgium sponsored the suggestion that the Committee, these 50 nations as a whole, should show their approval, and the President, after that suggestion had been endorsed, wound up by saying:
    "He felt sure he was speaking for the Committee in saying the members of the League assembled in that Committee noted the hope expressed by the first delegate of Belgium and gave it their full approval."
    In other words, since the beginning of last month we have, with the knowledge and approval of our fellow-members of the League, been engaged upon this task of attempting to find a basis of negotiation, a basis of conciliation, which would enable the parties to talk. What we are now doing, therefore, is interpreting the League's wish, which was and is that the search for conciliation should be concurrent with the imposition of sanctions, and I am bound to say that to me that seems an eminently wise and reasonable course. Clearly that was the course which the League approved, the course which we have followed. We have no mandate from the League, because the Committee to which I referred had no power to give us one, but it did express its approval of, and its good wishes for, the work in which we have been engaged. The fact that these conversations have been proceeding is a surprise to no one, nor have we ever had any illusions about the difficulty of the task in which we are engaged. In any event this is only the first step in a long and complicated enterprise. If it should happen that this basis which was discussed in Paris, the basis for negotiation, should commend itself to the principals in this dispute, then a beginning, but only a beginning, will have been made in the task that still lies before us.
    Now I turn to a subject to which the hon. Member referred, the question of publicity. It is perfectly true that Press reports have appeared in a number of
    824
    papers in this country and in foreign countries purporting to give an account of the proposals which were discussed and provisionally agreed in Paris. I cannot flatter myself that I have had the time to look at the reports in all the papers, but in all of those I have seen there are inaccuracies—important inaccuracies—and many of them are mutually contradictory. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that in the account which he read to us there certainly are important inaccuracies. It is not possible for me or for His Majesty's Government at this time to make public the proposals discussed. An hon. Gentleman expresses surprise, but I think I shall be able to ask for his personal support when I give our reasons. From his own experience he will know that we cannot make public these proposals at this time, any more than we could ever in the past or in the future make public any similar proposals under similar conditions.
    The House must appreciate what the position is. The procedure in connection with these proposals has yet to be completely agreed between us and the French Government. I anticipate that it may be agreed to-night. The proposals have not been despatched to either of the parties to the dispute, and surely it must be clear to the House that it would be unprecedented at this stage to make public proposals, which we hope will make a basis upon which the principals will talk, before the principals have even had a chance to read them.
    Now I come to the hon. Gentleman who interrupted. To transfer the conditions of international life to industrial life, if you are trying to make two parties to a dispute come to a settlement, can you imagine a worse way than to tell the world what you are going to tell them a little later on? To do that would be to make failure absolutely certain, and I do not believe there is anyone in this House, in whatever quarter he sits, who can really want to do that. It is not possible for us to make public these proposals now, not possible for us to correct inaccuracies, because that would be to make public the proposals by another method.
    It is not possible for us to do that for another reason. We cannot do it until the League organisation concerned has

    825
    considered these proposals and has decided what to do with them. All through the summer the various committees which have considered this dispute, the Committee of Five, the Committee of Thirteen, and others, have uniformly adopted the same procedure, and it is the only possible one. Neither of the parties nor any of the Governments have ever made public the documents or the proposals we have made. They have been made public at Geneva at the moment when, in the view of the Committee, it seemed possible to make them public without damage to the chances of a peaceful settlement.
    The hon. Gentleman when he spoke just now said that in this dispute we should uphold the Covenant and take no heed to the particular form of government in the country which has been found Lo he the aggressor. I make no complaint on that declaration; we have always made it clear that the interest of this country in this dispute is only its interest as a member of the League, and we are not concerned in any way with the internal government of Italy. That is our position to-day, and will remain our position throughout this dispute.
    At Question Time a right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench said that we were not an "honest broker" in this matter. I do not know about that, but I am quite sure that after an expression of opinion such as was given at the Committee of the League at the beginning of last month it was not possible for us to sit still and do nothing. The proposals which have been agreed to in Paris do not necessarily represent the point of view of the French Government or the point of view of His Majesty's Government, but they do represent suggestions which, in the judgment of those who took part in the conversations in Paris, might enable the parties to get together, and that is all those proposals were intended to do.
    We have never said that either party must accept the proposals, we are not seeking to impose terms on anybody—we have no authority to do it—but we are trying to find out, by communication with the parties, whether we can find a basis upon which peace negotiations should be possible, and I make no apology for that. Surely it would be unwise for third parties to condemn the proposals before
    826
    they fully know them, to express opinions upon them before they know whether they are going to prove acceptable to the principals. Let us be frank about this; let us face the facts. If Italy and Abyssinia and the League accept to discuss on the basis of the suggestions made in Paris, there is nobody here who is going to say No, even if some of those proposals may not be particularly appealing to us.
    I was asked at Question Time "Have you gone beyond the terms of the Committee of Five"? It is a perfectly fair question, but I can show the House by an example how difficult it is to give at once a full and satisfactory answer. The Committee of Five included among its proposals suggestions for the exchange of territory; they are one of the annexes to the documents which our Committee issued; but the Committee of Five did not go into the subject of what those exchanges of territory should be, for the reason that there were various views as to which form of exchange was most likely to secure agreement between the two parties. If the two parties had accepted discussion on the basis of the report of the Committee of Five then of course the nature of the exchanges of territory would have been gone into and argued, but on this occasion, in Paris, in order to be constructive at the stage which the dispute has reached now, it was necessary, indeed inevitable, to be more precise. Therefore, the proposals in Paris do contain, as the Committee of Five proposals did not, exchanges of territory in detail.
    This will explain the difficulty in which I am placed to-night—a difficulty which is much enhanced by the complicated nature of the proposals themselves, the inevitably complicated nature—in giving even the broad principles upon which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and the French Prime Minister have worked in Paris. Nevertheless, I am going to try. These proposals were based on three main principles: An exchange of territory, conveying definite advantages to both sides; League assistance to Ethiopia for the purpose of social, economic and administrative developments; special facilities for Italian settlers and Italian companies in connection with that economic development. Those are the three principles upon which these proposals were based. If

    827
    the right hon. Gentleman will carefully consider them he will see that they are at variance with the examples he gave to the House this afternoon. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes. I can only ask the right hon. Gentleman to examine them.
    I come to a point which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman that what the Government is now engaged in doing, he maintains, is contrary to the League and contrary to the principles of the Covenant. If that be so then, surely, it is for the League to say so. If they do say so we shall make no complaint. We shall be ready to accept their judgment just as we have been ready to take our part in this very unwelcome task. The League placed its confidence in us when it approved of our undertaking the task. We have every confidence in the judgment of the League when they come to examine these proposals.
    I have told the House all I can at this stage, and I can only ask them to appreciate both my position and my responsibility. I go to Geneva to-morrow to represent His Majesty's Government, and I go there because the policy of His Majesty's Government remains based upon its membership of the League of Nations. I shall hear at Geneva the views of my colleagues from many countries. I shall discuss with them aspects of this complicated situation. I will seek with them to determine the best course to pursue to further the two objectives which we have had constantly before us throughout these anxious months—establishment of peace and the maintenance of the authority of the League. I would beg the House not to seek to pledge me beforehand to particular forms of procedure in the work I have to do. I ask for latitude and for confidence in a task which no one can envy me, and in the discharge of which I trust that all parties will seek to bring me aid.
    8.3 p.m.
    Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH: I shall endeavour to follow the request made by the right hon. Gentleman and not attempt to commit him to definite decisions beforehand, when he is obviously going to negotiate. He has given to the House a very interesting account of how these proposals came to be made. If I may venture to say so, no one has
    828
    attempted to challenge him on that point. No complaint was made by the right hon. Gentleman above the Gangway that these proposals had been made, but what he did point out was that the nature of those proposals as reported in the Press was such as must raise the very greatest alarm and despondency amongst all lovers of peace. We have not had from the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench any contradiction of the general correctness of those reports. Inaccuracies he has said there are. I have no doubt there may be, but if the situation has been that the whole report in the "Times" and other papers was a sheer travesty, we think we should have been told so at once in unmistakable language.
    We are, therefore, entitled to assume that what has leaked out, unfortunately it may be, is not entirely divorced from the truth. We are entitled to discuss it on that basis on broad lines. I want to do so with every sense of responsibility. I am rising to continue this discussion with one feeling foremost in my mind, that the burden of responsibility on His Majesty's Ministers at this moment in dealing with foreign affairs is not only heavy; it must be almost a crushing burden. We have supported the policy of imposing sanctions. At my own election, although I stood for the imposition of sanctions the National Government candidate was opposing the Government on that issue. But these things are only of local interest and I will not pursue them. We on these benches, and the bulk of the nation, in giving the Government backing in its policy did so with a clear understanding of what sanctions were. We did not suppose it was a lighthearted adventure on which one would enter for the sake of watching the wheels go round and seeing if the League would work. The imposition of sanctions means the interruption of trade in the first place, the embittering of international relations—it cannot be helped; it is part of the inevitable price—and it does fill the atmosphere of the world with a very dangerous electricity. His Majesty's Ministers must be anxious, as any one of us would be anxious, to put an end to this situation as soon as they can on terms consistent with honour and with justice, and that is a very important proviso. If we end the situation otherwise, if violence is at long last allowed to win prizes, glittering results which

    829
    could not have been obtained by judicial arbitration, certain results will follow: Throughout the world the League, though it may still be regarded as an instrument of peace, will cease to be regarded as an instrument of justice.
    I hope that His Majesty's Ministers and rulers all over the world understand that the most dangerous thing you can do is to divorce the two ideas of peace and justice. Even the fairest name in the world may be smirched and sullied, even that of peace, and if the world gets the impression that peace as interpreted at Geneva is a thing which has no relation to fairness and justice, what lesson will you be teaching? A lesson that every man and nation must trust to the strength of his own right arm because that is the only thing that can avail him; because if he calls in the world police they will only assist in the division of the spoils that the victor has claimed. That would be a most dangerous result. It would mean that the smaller nations of the world who have their place in the League and are amongst its most valuable supporters, would come to the conclusion that though they might get peace through the League they can only get it at a price; that over the door of the League of Nations at Geneva there were written the words, "Abandon half all ye who enter here—half your authority, half your territory and half your prestige," and that only on those terms could the League work for the weaker nations.
    Indeed, the same might apply to the stronger nations. What if France were to find herself in difficulties and the other nations were to say, "There is Alsace and Lorraine. I think you should consent to give up Lorraine, and if you do not do that, we really cannot concern ourselves with settling the dispute"? It is a very dangerous precedent that is being set if only one portion of the reports in the Press is true. I would ask the Government also to consider the effect upon our prestige as a nation, with which is included their own prestige as a Government, though I am sure they put the first thing first. If they came to this lame and impotent conclusion or anything like what is outlined in the Press, what is the verdict to be on our own policy of to-day, the policy of sanctions? We have offended Italy. We have to face that. We have embarrassed France. We have to face that. And when we have tried out all
    830
    the elaborate machinery of the League what is the result? A division of territories which quite possibly Abyssinia might have effected with the force of her own spears.
    I cannot imagine any more lamentable conclusion than that the League, which should have been the guardian of the peace of the world, should become the distributor of spoils after a victory which is yet in doubt. I am sorry to have made a speech which is so full of misgivings and foreboding. I would not have made it if the Minister had removed all my fears. I fully appreciate the position which he has explained, and I hope that before long he may be able to give us a new declaration. I would not ask for that if he could repeat some of the declarations that have been made in the past. On 7th June of this year, as reported in the OFFICIAL REPORT, the right hon. Gentleman who was then Lord Privy Seal said:
    "It has been our constant, our persistent endeavour, to help to bring about a permanent settlement mutually satisfactory to Italy and Ethiopia; a settlement which would take Account of our responsibilities and those of France and Italy in the Tripartite Treaty of 1906, by which we, France and Italy agreed to co-operate in maintaining the political and territorial integrity of Abyssinia."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th June, 1935, col. 2210, Vol. 302.]
    That is the point. If these suggestions are true, can anyone call it a mere exchange of territory? Is it not obviously a violation of the political and territorial integrity of Abyssinia? I ask that that point should be regarded and that we should have regard to what was said by the Foreign Secretary at the League Assembly at Geneva on 11th September. He said:
    "We believe that small nations are entitled to a life of their own and to such protection as can collectively be afforded to them in the maintenance of their national life. And we believe that backward nations are, without prejudice to their independence and integrity, entitled to expect that assistance will be afforded them by more advanced peoples in the development of their resources and the building up of their national life."
    Is the treatment accorded to Abyssinia the treatment to which we are prepared to consent? Is it going to be on the lines made out in either of those speeches, with which I would agree? We want to have an assurance as soon as it can, consistently with the obligations of secrecy,

    831
    be given—and may I say it seems rather hard that such tremendous discretion should be observed in London when no sort of discretion is observed in Paris—an assurance that the Italy which has been found in the eyes of the world to be a convicted law-breaker, shall not gain greater advantages than those which were put before her for consideration before the peace talks. That at least we are are entitled to ask.
    I have endeavoured to avoid anything which would unduly embarrass the Government because I realise their tremendous responsibilities, but if they will believe me, I realise my own, because any private Member who gets up and urges the Government in any way to continue with a condition of affairs which we recognise to be fraught with danger takes upon himself some part of the responsibility of the Government, and I am bound to recognise that I am doing so to-night. I am speaking only according to my lights. I was sent here, like every one of us, to speak my mind as I could upon the affairs of the nations. I am sure of this, that there are no affairs so momentous or so fraught with infinite possibility for good or for ill as those which we have been discussing in the last hour. It is not only a question of the future of our own affairs: it may well be a question as to whether civilisation as we know it is to be submerged or is to survive.
    8.16 p.m.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman the Minister for League of Nations Affairs concluded his speech by saying that he hoped that this House would still continue to place in him the confidence that has hitherto reposed in him. How I wish he could still have that confidence, but it is gone. Only two months ago everyone in this House saw in the action of His Majesty's Government the hope for the future of mankind, in that they were at last going to put Great Britain at the head of the new collective movement for peace, extending the safety of the British Empire to the whole League of Nations. If that were to be a success there was one obvious thing; we must have one case where the authority of the League triumphed over wrong—just one case. We lost over Corfu, we lost over Paraguay
    832
    and we lost in other directions. In every case that has come up, hitherto the authority of the League was as nothing. Its capacity for making peace after war has taken place was undoubted, but its authority had never been asserted and had never been successful. By England placing itself at the head of the movement, the League authority for collective responsibility had, sponsored by us, suddenly opened the eyes not only of this country but of the whole world, to the magnificent role that England could play to save civilisation.
    All along, that attitude has been sapped by the old enemies of peace and by the old enemies of England. I do not speak as a partisan any longer in this House. I think I am a unique example in the history of Parliament, returned to this House on the nomination of all three parties. Not only that, but my words during the Election in my own country were printed by the hon. Member who represents me and by the Solicitor-General who sits for a neighbouring constituency, and they were broadcast by them. Why? Solely because I supported the Government's attitude in leading the world towards peace and England towards leadership.
    It is quite clear to-night. It was put forward quite clearly by the Minister for League of Nations Affairs. He is going on a deadly dual policy: peace at any price, and the authority of the League, He is still trying for both. The authority of the League is getting a little lower, and peace at any price is getting a little stronger. Those two aims and objects are diametrically opposed. It has always been possible to secure peace through the League of Nations. You watch which way the war is going and then you have conference after conference and polite indignation, and in the end the conqueror gets what he has conquered. Peace is made. It is easy to do that. If you are going on a dual policy you can always carry out one side of it easily. You can always make peace—but the authority of the League, how about that other side?
    We have had a long story to-night from the right hon. Gentleman of all the steps that have been taken, how every action he has taken has been in accordance with the League, which asked France and England to act as honest brokers between the two parties in order

    833
    to see if they could devise some scheme and some terms of peace. What sort of honest broker is it that consults only one party and does not consult the other? Then they draw up this amazing basis of peace. I have no doubt that it will be accepted by Italy and I have no doubt that it will be rejected, and rightly so, by Abyssinia. I am not really interested in Italy or Abyssinia. I do not much mind what the terms of peace are. What I am interested ir4 is saving the authority of the League.
    You have this peace plan put forward and agreed to by the Foreign Secretary. When that scheme is put before the League of Nations at Geneva to-morrow or the next day, what will be the attitude of His Majesty's representative? Will he support that scheme, or will they say, as they might still say if they would save the situation, "This is the only basis upon which Italy will make peace. It is up to the League of Nations to decide, as before, whethey they will accept it or whether we shall carry on on the old lines." If that were the attitude taken to-morrow by the Minister, the situation might still be saved. I do not believe for one moment that the League of Nations, and those 50 nations who have backed us in the past, will not then reject, with the same unanimity with which they have accepted sanctions, this leaked document, as a basis for discussion. It destroys all the hopes that have been built up in the last six months so far as the small nations are concerned.
    Are we going to coerce the League of Nations? Is this disastrous alliance with France—or rather, I should say with M. Laval, because I do not know how much of France he represents—going to continue in face of the League of Nations or not? It is said that any agreement will have to be agreeable to both parties and to the League of Nations. Is that merely a façon de parler? Are we really going to leave it to the League of Nations? Are we going to express our English views as to the necessity of saving the authority of the League or are we going to the League to say, "This is the best we can do. We had better accept it just as we accepted all the other. The League of Nations has failed again"? If the League of Nations say "No, we cannot accept these terms," is England going to go on? Are we then going to have that sanction of oil, the prohibition
    834
    of oil, or has that, too, vanished? Are we going to have the continual pressure of further sanctions in order to secure League authority?—and it may be secured yet. Are we going to leave this Chamber to-night uncertain as to what the Government are going to do?
    We do not ask what the exact terms are, but we do ask the Government, "Are you going to force this monstrous solution upon the League of Nations; and, if they reject it, are you going to continue to support the League of Nations to impose further sanctions, although Mussolini has accepted this particular scheme which was evolved in Paris?" That seems to me to be the critical thing. If these 50 nations come in as before; if England is still going on with the majority of the League, is France going to wreck that policy because she wishes to agree with Italy. After all, France does not export any petrol. If our position is made clear, the situation may yet be saved and the authority of the League may yet be triumphant. On the other hand, if the Foreign Secretary, from his peaceful refuge in Switzerland, is going to carry still further the policy of peace at any price and justice forgotten, then the English Government will not only fail to secure the authority of the League, but they will be damned in the eyes of all those small nations and all those innumerable people in America and throughout the world who have pinned their faith upon the honesty of the British Government. They will be condemned far more than they would have been if they had never gone in for this attempt to save civilisation. We have had to-night a quotation from an hon. Gentleman on the Liberal benches. The correct quotation comes from a gentleman called Dante, who enjoyed drawing pictures of his enemies in hell—a very fitting protagonist for Italian propaganda. The exact words, I think, are:
    "Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate."
    That really means in this case,
    "Leave all hope those who enter the League of Nations and pin their faith to the British Government."
    I think that a little less Italian propaganda might be well, even from Members of the House of Commons. Years ago I was in the French Chamber when they were debating the question of a strike of the railway workers, and the Chamber

    835
    was finally carried away by a magnificent speech by Jaurès. In the French Chamber you stand on the tribune with the Ministers all below you ready for denunciation. I remember him pointing his finger at the Prime Minister, M. Briand, and saying to him:
    "You, Briand, who in the eyes and the hearts of our young men stood as a bright light from a guiding star, whom now they name only as a proof that there is no truth in this world."
    I never in my life heard such denunciation; it was a charge which smashed M. Briand and his Government at that moment, the words might well echo in all our hearts. Are we, who have been the bright light guiding the hope of the peoples, going to be just one more example that there is no truth and honesty in politicians?
    8.31 p.m.
    Mr. STEPHEN: I venture to intervene in this Debate because the party I represent takes a line in this matter different from that of any of the other parties in the House. I have noticed that Members and Ministers speaking from the various benches have always been ready to say that the whole country is behind this policy of sanctions, and there is no one who has ventured to say other than that he is putting his faith in the League. The Independent Labour party from the outset has taken a very definite line, and is opposed to the policy of sanctions; and if we needed any justification for the line we have taken, I think we have had that full justification to-night in the speech from the Front Opposition Bench, and also in the very pitiful speech of my hon. Friend behind me on the Liberal benches. Surely the Labour party will now begin to understand how, in putting their trust in the League of Nations, they have taken an altogether wrong line.
    As I listened to the Minister for League of Nations Affairs, I could not see that he was making out a very strong line. He asked any Member of the House to point out any contradiction between what the Government were doing to-day and the policy that the Government had pursued previously, and I did not notice any great anxiety on the part of any Member on this side of the House to challenge the statement of the Minister
    836
    in that respect. As I see it, the Government are pursuing the logical development of the line that they have taken throughout, and it only proves that the League of Nations is a fraud and an imposture. Long ago a great Russian leader called it a thieves' kitchen, a collection of bandits; and the present position in connection with the Italo-Abyssinian dispute makes it plain that, in spite of the entry of the Soviet Union into the League, it remains a thieves' kitchen or a league of robbers. The Minister, in his plea that nothing should be done or said to make his task heavier at Geneva, seemed to me to be talking truly in the language of the League of Nations.
    A speaker on the Liberal bench protested that he did not want to do anything which would embarrass the right hon. Gentleman at the League in view of his statement that he was not prepared to deny that the reports in the Press were substantially correct. I believe every Member of the House is of opinion that what has been in the Press is more than 50 per cent. accurate—is practically wholly accurate. Hon. Members above the Gangway believe that that is an accurate statement of what has been arrived at in Paris but, in the face of that, and in face of the Minister's statement that he is confident that the other nations in the League will back them in what they are doing, I cannot understand how hon. Members above the Gangway can go on following this fraud and imposture with regard to the provision of a real settlement of international dispute. The Socialist position with regard to international troubles was stated long ago, that you will have international trouble and war so long as you have a capitalist economic system. I remember once addressing a demonstration in Glasgow under the auspices of the No-more-war Movement. I was telling the late John Wheatley all about it and he smiled and said, "I wonder that in a country like this, where we are troubled with so much rain, no one has ever founded a society for the prevention of rain." When I looked at him he said, "It is just as reasonable to expect that you will have no more war in a capitalist world as it is to expect that you can by the work of a society arrange to have no more rain." I think that is true and, if those who hold the Socialist faith realise

    837
    that war is simply an incident in the working of the capitalist economic system, you will not have the great Labour party putting all its faith in the League of Capitalist nations as a means of ending war.
    I wanted to say that because I also want hon. Members to face up to a question which is very obviously in the mind of His Majesty's Government. The Government, as a member of the League, has embarked upon this policy of sanctions, and it has been said that, if there is one issue upon which the country has decided to back the Government, it is this question of sanctions. I believe if there is one question about which the people were not at all clear was this question of sanctions. I believe the people were prepared to back the Government in the policy of sanctions only if sanctions did not lead to war. What they had in view was the avoidance of war at practically all costs, and they were assured that sanctions would be sufficient to prevent Italy carrying out her designs in Abyssinia and that the world would be saved from the dreadful prospect of another world war on even a greater and more terrible scale than the last. That is how I interpret the mind of the country during the Election, and I notice that, so far as Scotland is concerned, members of the Tory party and the Labour party alike ran away from the policy of sanctions other than sanctions which did not result in war. Prominent members of the Conservative party said they were not prepared that a single British life should be lost in the arid wastes of Abyssinia. Prominent members of the Labour party said they were prepared to back economic sanctions, but they were not prepared to give any adherence whatever to military sanctions.
    Then this question occurs, and it appears to me that it is one of the questions that has worried members of the Government. The policy of economic sanctions has been carried a certain distance and it does not appear to be meeting with any great success. Now the oil sanction is going to be invoked. If Italy decides that the imposition of the oil sanction is a case of war, and we are engaged in war, what then? If the present basis fails and the Government goes on with its policy of sanctions and it results in war, are conscientious objectors above the Gangway prepared to back the
    838
    Government in carrying on war? If they are not, they are not entitled to back the policy of sanctions at all. Sir Walter Citrine said at the Trades Union Congress they had to realise that it might come to war, and they had to be prepared for that. I hope in this serious situation no one is going to support the Government in its policy of sanctions and, if it leads to war, to find excuses for not assisting the Government in carrying on the war.
    We are opposed to the policy of sanctions. It may fairly be asked, "Is your policy then simply a negative? Are you prepared to stand aside and see Italian Fascism having its own way and over-running Abyssinia?" There have been a lot of Abyssinians killed in spite of your sanctions, and this constructive policy of backing the fraud and the imposture of the League of Nations has not carried you very far. The Minister is very confident that whatever Britain and France agree upon, all the other pigmies of the League will agree to afterwards. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is your League."] I would not say it is our League. I would say possibly it is British and French Imperialism's League.
    As far as working-class policy is concerned, we have not the slightest doubt, but that a constructive policy is one not of saying to the Government, "We will support you and we will support the League," but of seeking to rouse the working classes of this country for the overthrow of British Imperialism and appealing to the workers in other countries for the overthrow of the Imperialism in their respective countries. After the end of the war in 1918, and after the Russian Revolution and the German Revolution, and when revolution was in the air, there was not so very much being said by governments about the need for building up armaments as you hear to-day. They were afraid of a working class that might overthrow their Imperialism, and I believe that the right line for the working-class movement here is not a policy of isolation.
    The Minister for League of Nations Affairs the other night joined the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) with Lord Beaverbrook, Mr. Garvin and Lady Houston as being supporters of the policy of isolation, and he seemed to think that these people were sinners above all, or people in this country that were

    839
    to be regarded with the greatest amount of ridicule. I could quite well understand that a year or two ago he would have quoted Mr. Garvin as being a great authority. But the policy of the Independent Labour party is not a policy of isolation, but a policy of the solidarity of the working classes in opposition to the Imperialisms of the different countries, and it is only by the solidarity of the working class that you have the real sanction—the sanction of organised working-class power for the overthrow of the Imperialist system. That is the one sanction that can be an effective sanction. I notice the Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), and I would ask him to-night the position of his party.
    Mr. GALLACHER: Not to-night. Some other time when I can speak back.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Speak to-night.
    Mr. GALLACHER: I cannot. I have already spoken in the discussion.
    Mr. STEPHEN: The hon. Member can answer me on some future occasion. I am asking him if his party will not have misgivings now if this thing happens with regard to Abyssinia. If a future dispute comes along and Soviet Russia is in a similar position to that which Abyssinia is in, will the Communists of the world depend upon M. Laval and the Minister to the League and the people of the League for their defence? I say definitely that in our opinion the League of Nations is nothing but a fraud and an impost and can be no real instrument for bringing peace to the world. Only through the overthrow of the capitalist economic system and the bringing into being of the Socialist commonwealth can we establish world peace.
    9.0 p.m.
    Mr. COCKS: Like the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. K. Griffith), I feel the responsibility which should be attached to every Member of this House in taking part in this particular discussion. I realise very fully the dangerous and difficult nature of the international situation, and I would not wish to add, by any words which I may use, to the danger of that situation. There is something more to be said. In the first place, the silence which has been observed throughout this Debate by Members on
    840
    the opposite side of the House is no indication at all that those supporters of the Government are satisfied with the policy which seems to have developed in the last few days in Paris. I think that it is true that one of the reasons for the success of the Government at the recent Election was the fact that the electors felt that the Government were carrying out the policy of supporting the League of Nations and the collective system. The Minister for League of Nations Affairs said last week that he thought that the foreign policy of the Government represented the real feeling of the people, and went on to say:
    "I have not heard in the whole course of this Debate one single speech advocating that we should turn our backs on the League."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1935; col. 431, Vol. 307.]
    By which, I understand, he means not merely turning our backs on the League but upon the principles for which the League stands. What are those principles as related to the present situation? They have been stated by the Foreign Secretary on two or three occasions and repeated in a State document addressed to the French Government. In one of the most notable speeches of the present year, and indeed of the last two years, he said:
    "The Leaguestands, and my country stands with it, for the collective maintenance of the Covenant in its entirety, and particularly for steady and collective resistance to all acts of unprovoked aggression."
    The meaning of that is that, in the first place, we are pledged to respect the independence and integrity of every State Member of the League; and, secondly, we are pledged to support steady and collective resistance to any act of aggression. Those are the two principles by which the Government and the country stand. There are one or two other utterances which, I think, it is as well to put on record again to-night. The Minister for League of Nations Affairs, speaking on 7th June, said that it was the Government's endeavour
    "to bring about a permanent settlement mutually satisfactory to Italy and Ethiopia a settlement which would take account of … the Tripartite Treaty of 1906, by which we (Britain), France and Italy agreed to co-operate in maintaining the political and territorial integrity of Abyssinia, and a settlement which would lie within the framework of the Covenant of the League, the Kellogg Pact and the Italo-Ethiopian Treaty of friendship of 1920."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th June, 1935; col. 2210, Vol. 302.]

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    Speaking only last week he said that:
    "In working for terms of peace we are seeking for terms which shall be acceptable to the League and which shall be accepted by Abyssinia and Italy, the two parties to the dispute."
    He went on to say:
    "The great majority of the nations judge this dispute as being not a Colonial war, not a matter of economic enterprise or of economic difficulty, but as a dispute wherein the whole conception of the new peace system is at stake."
    Therefore, his conclusion was:
    "Those nations are determined to do all they can to maintain that system"—
    the new peace system—
    "in which they believe the greatest hope of their future security lies."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1935; cols. 427 and 429, Vol. 307.]
    That is perfectly clear. The last statement I want to put on record is one which was made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the same Debate, when he said:
    "Any proposals … must be acceptable to the three parties to the dispute—the League, Italy and Abyssinia. I state these facts once again lest anyone should be so foolish as to harbour suspicions that the French and ourselves are attempting to sidetrack the League and to impose upon the world a settlement that could not be accepted by the three parties to the dispute."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1935; col. 343, Vol. 307.]
    It is important that all these references should be placed on record in this discussion. I have no intention of going into the miserable history of this affair. I have no intention of dealing with the many treaties, some of a somewhat scandalous nature, which have been concluded by various countries relating to Abyssinia during the last 10 or 15 years. I do not intend to deal with what I consider the Government's great failure at the beginning of the year to prevent the war breaking out, nor do I intend to criticise the delays which have taken place in imposing effective sanctions, delays largely owing, I understand, to the policy of M. Laval, the reason for which I appreciate, because I know the difficult position of France in regard to this matter. I would simply say that any proposal which does not conform to the utterances I have quoted, or any suggestion, or the basis of any plan, which enables the aggressor to gain any advantage at all from the fact that he has committed an aggression, should not be considered
    842
    either by the Government or by the League. We do not know what the proposals are. We have seen a statement in the newspapers. My right hon. Friend who opened the debate has read some of them, but the Minister for League of Nations Affairs says that they are inaccurate in certain respects. Inaccurate is a very moderate word.
    Mr. EDEN: Not in my mouth.
    Mr. COCKS: "Inaccurate" does not mean that they are without foundation. It has been suggested, without going into the geographical details, that the plan means the transference from Abyssinia sovereignty of 150,000 square miles of her total area of 350,000 square miles—nearly half the country. That may be inaccurate. It may be only 10,000 square miles, but a suggestion of that nature, that Italy, because she has wantonly attacked Abyssinia, against all her pledges, should be rewarded by being given large extents of Abyssinian territory, should not be considered by the Government or the League of Nations. Even to buy oft Italy by giving her a British colony like British Somaliland or by giving her a French colony like Tunis, would be a wrong thing to do. To give her a large part of Abyssinia would be a shameful act.
    Mr. McGOVERN: How would you prevent it? Are you in favour of military action?
    Mr. COCKS: I will deal with that matter at the proper time and place. [Laughter.] There is no reason for hon. Members to laugh. I have stated my position over and over again.
    Mr. McGOVERN: What is it?
    Mr. COCKS: The hon. Member has been in Parliament long enough and he has heard me state my position.
    Mr. McGOVERN: Continually in this House we have people stating their policy, at one time as pacificists and then as militarists. I want to know whether the hon. Member has changed his attitude and whether he wants military action.
    Mr. COCKS: I have not changed my attitude. I have always supported the League and the Covenant and the principle of collective action, in its fullest application.
    Mr. McGOVERN: The policy of the conscientious objector.
    Mr. COCKS: I was not a conscientious objector. The hon. Member is as ignorant as he is impertinent. I am dealing not with the idiosyncracies of hon. Members below the Gangway but with the Government's policy and with the proposals suggested in Paris for a basis of discussion. I was saying that the Minister for League of Nations Affairs tried to explain the proposals as well as he was able to-night. He said that they were based on three points. The first point was an exchange of territory. To a fair exchange of territory no particular objection could be made, but to suggest that we should take from Abyssinia large provinces in exchange for a small port, would not be a fair exchange of territory. Another point was that a part of Abyssinia should be reserved for Italian settlers. I suppose that in that settlement they would be independent of the Abyssinian Government. I should like to ask the Minister for League Affairs whether he would suggest that an Italian settlement of that nature in Kenya or Tanganyika would be acceptable to this country. If such a proposal would not be acceptable to the British Empire, clearly it ought not to be acceptable so far as Abyssinia is concerned.
    The danger that I foresee is that these proposals may be put forward and sent on to Italy, that Italy may accept them as a basis for discussion, and because they have been so accepted by the Italian Government the French Government might then say that owing to the fact that Italy had accepted the proposals as a basis she declined to go on with the policy of oil sanctions. That seems to me to be a distinct danger in the situation. In that event we must, with the other members of the League, go on and impose oil sanctions even without the co-operation of France. What is really happening at the present time is that M. Laval, for reasons that are quite understandable, is fighting tooth and nail for his ally, for military reasons, and not for the sake of Abyssinia. There are those who are fighting tooth and nail for the maintenance of the Fascist system. The duty of this country ought to be to fight tooth and nail for the Covenant of the League of Nations and to see that the way of the aggressor is made stony,
    844
    thorny and, most important of all, barren. I think that is the view of the people of this country.
    Abyssinia is in a very strong military position, in a strong strategic position, while Italy is in a weak one, and the application of the oil sanctions would bring the war to an end in a few months. In view of these facts the people of this country would be inclined to say to the Emperor of Abyssinia: "If we were you we would go on fighting until every Italian soldier had left your territory, and we would not make peace so long as the Italian army was there." If the basis of the proposal is anything like those that have been suggested to-night and if it does not conform to the utterances of Members of the Government that I have quoted, on the principle that the aggressor should not be allowed to succeed, then when the members of the League get the proposals I hope they will reject them. To the Government I would say: "If you dishonour your word and break the Covenant or allow the aggressor to succeed, not only future generations but the present generation will rise up and curse you."
    9.5 p.m.
    Miss RATHBONE: Several speakers have remarked that it is impossible for any private Member to take part in this Debate except with reluctance and a deep sense of responsibility. I feel that strongly. We are under a double disadvantage. The Debate has taken us by surprise, and we have had no time for that elaborate preparation of written speeches which Mr. Speaker so much deplores, but which is sometimes such a comfort to nervous and inexperienced speakers. Still more we are under the disadvantage of not knowing fully the case we are arguing. We cannot assume that the terms which have been announced in the newspapers are precisely the real terms which are being offered. We know indeed that they are not exactly the terms which are being offered. Anyone who listened to the statement of the right hon. Minister for League Affairs must have had his misgivings deepened rather than lightened by what he said. If the reports in this morning's newspapers had been a travesty, an exaggeration of the terms, he would have used very different language this afternoon, and we are bound to draw the conclusion—indeed, no other conclusion

    845
    can be drawn—that if the newspapers have not got it quite right they are pretty nearly right.
    What is the position? Is there any ordinary plain man or woman who has been interested in this dispute since June when it first came before us who can read the terms which have been printed this morning and not feel that they represent a tremendous surrender, a real climb down? The Debate in this House on 11th July was the first occasion when the Abyssinian question was fully discussed. I thought it was one of the most impressive debates to which I had listened during the course of six years in the House. From every side of the House, from the Foreign Secretary, from the Minister for League of Nations Affairs, from the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), from the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), and the right hon. Gentleman the late Member for Darwen, Sir H. Samuel, whose absence those who care for the dignity and efficiency of the House of Commons so much regret, came the same warning, that we were at a turning point in the history of the League and collective security. Let me quote a few lines from the most impressive of those speeches, the speech of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham:
    "We are coming very near to what may be a test case for the League as to whether it does mean collective security; whether it does mean anything for anyone or nothing for anyone. It is not to be supposed that the League can be flouted under the eyes of Europe, that League methods can be repudiated, a policy of force and conflict engaged in, and that the League can pass all that by because it happens to occur in Africa and not in Europe without thereby destroying the value of collective security not for Africa only but for Europe."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th July, 1935; col. 568, Vol. 304.]
    It may be said that nothing that has happened in connection with the peace terms now really contradicts that statement, and that in a sense it is going to be a victory for the League and for the system of collective security. It is a strange sort of victory which allows an aggressor who has made war after six months warning from the League, an aggressor who has defied the authority of the League and broken all his obligations, should be offered, three months after he has gone to war, terms incomparably better—if the terms are any-
    846
    thing like what we are led to believe—than he was offered before he went to war at all. Does the Prime Minister or the Minister for League of Nations Affairs deny that the terms which were agreed upon between France and Great Britain are immensely better than the terms which were offered in Paris three months ago? If he did he would bring great relief to our minds. He has not denied that they are an immense improvement on those terms. Is that a victory for the League? In any other realm of human affairs if an intending offender was warned that he did it at his peril and that the whole of authority and power would be brought to bear against him if he transgressed, and if after the transgression had taken place he was offered a way out on terms almost as good as he ever wanted, and infinitely better than the terms offered before the transgression took place, would that be looked upon as a victory for authority?
    The right hon. Gentleman the Minister for League of Nations Affairs told us that three principles were to be observed. With two of them I have not much to say. There is to be League assistance in social and industrial development, and special facilities for Italian settlers in Abyssinia, apparently not only in the parts which are to be given right out to Italy, but in the rest of Abyssinia. A very welcome kind of settlers they will be in Abyssinia proper! But the principle which attracted my attention was that of exchange of territory. That sounds reasonable enough; but what sort of exchange? Is it the exchange which is foreshadowed this morning, the small port of Zeila to be handed over to Abyssinia, with a connection with the rest of Abyssinia going through hostile territory, which would be under the control of Italy, and that in exchange for that Italy is to have something like 150,000 square miles of Abyssinian territory? If that is the exchange it will be like an arbitrator suggesting to one disputant that he should hand over 6d. and in exchange for that he would get £1,000. Is that a fair exchange? That is the kind of exchange which this exchange of territory contemplates.
    We are told that these terms, good or bad, are only a beginning. In what sense are they a beginning? Apparently they

    847
    may be repudiated by the League, and the Minister for League Affairs said that if they were so repudiated, the Government would accept the decision of the League. Or they may be repudiated by Abyssinia. We would like to know, and we have a right to know, in what sense is the League to be free to accept or reject these terms. What I mean is, is it free, are the other members of the League, the other 50 nations, who have agreed to impose sanctions, free to say that they object to these terms? What will happen if they do? Will His Majesty's Government still be willing to take part in the sanctions which have already been imposed? Will they be willing to take part in the sanction which the Foreign Secretary said the Committee of Eighteen had accepted in principle and will be put into execution at their next meeting—the oil embargo? Every expert has said that an oil embargo is dreaded by Italy and disliked by France, just because it is likely to be successful.
    The Foreign Secretary led us to believe that the oil embargo would be imposed by the Committee of Eighteen if the peace terms had not been agreed upon in the meantime. Supposing that the peace terms are not agreed upon in the meantime because other nations in the League, Russia for instance and also the small nations, refuse these proposals on which France and Great Britain have agreed. Will the Government still be willing to impose that really effective embargo, the oil embargo? If not, in what sense can we say that the League is free to accept or to refuse these terms? We all know that Great Britain and France are the only two really great Powers remaining in the League. Upon them, necessarily, the greater part of the onus of imposing sanctions must fall. Therefore, how can we say that the League is free to accept or reject these terms, if Great Britain and France are going to stand out and say "If you refuse the terms which we think we ought to offer to Italy and Abyssinia, then we will not take any further part in the imposition of sanctions." How can we expect the United States, which has given in many ways such reassuring indications of its anxiety to do what it can to prevent the arming of the disputants on either side, to continue in that attitude, if we are going to stand out of
    848
    the oil embargo? Unless it is made clear to the other nations of the League that, if they refuse these terms, we shall go on just the same with the imposition of sanctions and that we shall be willing to impose the one really effective sanction, namely, the petrol embargo, then I say it is a mockery to assure us that the League is free to accept or reject these terms.
    The other question I want to ask is: In what sense is it true that Abyssinia is free to accept or reject these terms? Supposing that Abyssinia says, "No." It would not be surprising if Abyssinia did so. Which of us would say "Yes" if we were asked to part with nearly half our territory. In this case it is the territory of the one independent nation left in Africa, whose independence and integrity the League is pledged to protect. Who of us in that position would agree to having these vast territories taken away in exchange for the port of Zeila? Supposing that Abyssinia says "No" what is to be the position of Abyssinia? Supposing that the rest of the League has been forced to consent to these terms, is Abyssinia to be told, "You can refuse them if you like; you have a perfect right to do so, but in that case the sanctions will be withdrawn"? Is that the attitude which will be adopted in that case? It is as though the right hon. Gentleman came across a highwayman who had got hold of a passenger and said to the man who had been attacked, "I was coming to your rescue but this highwayman has kindly consented to let you go if you give him all you possess. You are perfectly free to refuse, but if you do refuse, he will cut your throat and I will not interfere." Is that carrying out our obligations to Abyssinia? I say it is treachery to Abyssinia. It is a betrayal of Abyssinia.
    I wish to put just two more questions. The first is: Why are we forced into this disgraceful surrender? What has forced us into it? Is it because Italy has so far been so successful in the war against Abyssinia? Nobody would have thought so to read the papers, though we recognise that the accounts given in the papers are very imperfect. Is it because sanctions have failed? Surely not. The imposition of sanctions has only begun. Is it because the projected sanction is likely to fail or is it because that sanction is likely to be only too successful and

    849
    that therefore France, and Great Britain following France, are afraid of imposing it? Or is there some real substantial reason such as even those who care most for their obligations to the League might have to accept? Is it, perhaps, because the Government have discovered that if Italy is not allowed to get its way in reality if not in theory, if we do not make this tremendous surrender to Italy, we shall have war with Italy and Germany too? It it is war with Italy cannot we, with all the other nations of the League standing by our side, afford to risk that rather than risk the destruction of collective security for years to come? Is it not the smaller risk of the two? If there is really risk of war from Germany, we have a right to know it, because to we plain men and women it seems that the real risk from Germany would be in allowing Italy to succeed.
    Suppose that the moral of all this dispute is that Mussolini, the head of one of the weaker of the five great Powers, has been able to defy the 50 assembled nations of the League. Suppose that Italy has been able to get almost everything it wants from the League, simply by making a big show of force and defying the League. Then, if Italy can get that by defying the League, what cannot Hitler get if he takes similar action? And what will be the position of the smaller countries in the League knowing that to be so? What price the League of Nations for any small country, if Italy is to be allowed to get away with it, as these terms are going to allow her to get away with it? And what shall we have got out of it? We shall not have got the friendship of Italy. We have alienated Italy for some years to come. Italy will know perfectly well that if we yield to these disgraceful terms it is because we have not the courage to hold our position. We shall not win the real respect or friendship of Italy in that way but we shall have lost the respect of all the coloured peoples of the world if we betray one of those coloured peoples. After all, this Empire is the greatest Empire of coloured peoples in the world and that is not the way to defend the interests of the coloured peoples.
    I may have spoken too bitterly and from imperfect information. It is a necessity of the situation that we have to speak from imperfect information. But there is not a man or woman in this
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    chamber or in Great Britain whose honour is not at stake in this matter. There is not one of us who is not deeply concerned in whatever action has taken place behind our backs in conference at Paris, with a Foreign Secretary who has now gone away on the sick list. By those conversations our honour and our future, as far as it is bound up with the collective system of security, may be taken away and we are perfectly helpless. We are not even allowed to know the truth. These terms are to be presented to the League to Abyssinia and to Italy before we are even allowed to know what they are. I do not think that is a position in which the sovereign Parliament of this Kingdom ought to be placed. I think we ought to know a little more of the truth and especially ought we to know the replies to the two questions which I have asked, namely, What is to happen if the League refuses these terms, and, what is to happen if Abyssinia refuses the terms, before we can give the Government a doctor's mandate to go ahead in this matter.
    9.24 p.m.
    Mr. PETHICK - LAWRENCE: The Debate to-night has, in my opinion, been one of extreme importance. It is almost certainly the last opportunity which the House will have of discussing the terms of peace before they are adopted and handed over to the persons concerned for their approval or rejection. The Minister for League of Nations Affairs told us that a better opportunity for discussion would come later after the terms had been presented to the League. He told us that we would then be in possession of the terms and would have the whole facts before us instead of the imperfect information which we have at present. For our purpose that Debate would come too late. It is essential that our protest should be made to-night before these terms are definitely fixed and before they are handed to Signor Mussolini and the other persons concerned with this dispute.
    We have not had contributions from hon. Members on the other side in this Debate. We have had an eloquent contribution, to which I am sure hon. Members have listened with the greatest pleasure, from the hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone), and I think the powerful points which she made should be

    851
    answered by the Prime Minister if he is to reply. We have not had definite speeches from hon. Members sitting on the benches opposite, who support the Government, but I watched their faces when the Minister for League of Nations Affairs was speaking, and I came to the conclusion that there was no reason to doubt the accuracy of what the "Times" said to-day, that these proposals had created an unfavourable impression on the rank and file of Government supporters in the House of Commons. I beg the Government not to assume that, because hon. Members have not taken part in this Debate, they are behind them in supporting terms similar to those which have been reported. They know better than I do that hon. Members do not like to oppose the Government in their speeches, particularly so early in the Session, and they have means of finding out that the silence is not one which gives consent.
    I think that large numbers of Members on the opposite benches are alarmed and disquieted by what they have seen in the papers to-day, and it is no wonder that that is the case. With the exception of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) and one or two others who followed his line of country, the whole of the Members supporting the Government at the General Election gave out in no unmistakable way their support for the League of Nations and collective security. A great many of my hon. Friends on this side of the House said, as we were entitled to do, that the Government was only a late convert to this policy. We quoted statements by the Prime Minister and by other Members of the Government not many months ago, in which they scouted collective action and trusting to the League of Nations. How were we met by electors in the country? They said, "It may be, as you say, that the Government have not always been a great supporter of collective action and the League of Nations, but we have read the speech which the Foreign Secretary made at Geneva, we have heard on the wireless the utterances of the Prime Minister, and we have read and heard the utterances of the Minister for League of Nations Affairs, and whatever may have been their failure in the past there is no doubt to-day that they are standing
    852
    up to this business and that they are going to see the matter through."
    I would remind the House of the words of the Foreign Secretary, who said on 22nd October: "We cannot condone the multiple breach of treaties and let the League survive." The Prime Minister at an earlier stage in our present Debate on the Address said, not that the terms of peace must be accepted but that they must be acceptable to all the parties in the dispute, meaning the League of Nations, Italy and Abyssinia. The question that we put in this discussion is—are these pronouncements to be honoured not merely in the letter but in the spirit? My hon. Friend, in opening the discussion, pointed out that the ideal thing is that where a person breaks a covenant and is responsible for the death and mutilation of large numbers of people, he should not merely get nothing but should suffer some form of punishment, and that the lowest punishment that can be inflicted is that he should pay some reparations for the terrible damage that he has done. He also pointed out that at this stage in the development of the League of Nations that was probably too much to ask.
    We on this side of the House have a great deal of sympathy with what the Prime Minister said earlier, that however much he supported sanctions he felt it necessary to try by every means in his power to obtain a peace which would end this horrible slaughter of men, women and children, which would bring this terrible war to an end, and which was a peace that, however imperfect, would be better than a continuance of this terrible struggle. The Minister for League of Nations Affairs told us that in the efforts to find a peaceful solution he had the support of members of the League of Nations, and he asked plaintively, why then should we not accept the peace efforts of the Government as an earnest of their desire to bring this war to an end, and was it not to be expected that the League of Nations would applaud and not quarrel with what the Government have done?
    In that debate to which the Minister referred several members of the League of Nations pointed out that the peace must be one within the framework of the League, and we on these benches say that the peace must be one which accords with the spirit of the League of Nations and

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    not merely with the letter. The question is, is that definition fulfilled by the terms which are under discussion at present? It will be said from the other side that we do not know the terms. That, of course, is meticulously the case—we do not know the precise terms. But we have not merely a shrewd suspicion of the terms. We know pretty well what they are. Apart from the fact that the Press has revealed these terms to us, and we have little doubt of some of the sources from which they are derived, we have evidence in the speeches to-day that the basis of the terms is that which has been revealed.
    In the course of answering my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister spoke definitely of there having been a leakage in the French Press. If the French Press reports were mere guesswork and were largely or even considerably different from the terms which are actually under consideration, he would not have used that word "leakage." Leakage implies that these reports have got very near to the truth. Then the Prime Minister went on to explain his words, and, having carefully refreshed his memory, because he was not quite sure about it, he told us that there were differences of substance. He would not have used those mild words, and he would not have had to refresh his memory by discussing with his colleagues, if they had been fundamental differences. Then the Minister for League of Nations Affairs watered it down still further. He did not even say they were differences of substance; he said there were certain inaccuracies. It is open to the Prime Minister to say that these differences are far greater than we imagine, but I do not think he can really say to us that they amount to a really substantial alteration in the basis of the settlement which is under discussion.
    That being so, what are these terms that we are told are going to be offered to Italy? Do not let us hide them up by a number of geographical expressions, to discover the meaning of which many of us have to look at the map. In the first place, it is proposed to hand over a great strip in the North adjoining Eritrea; in the second place, it is proposed to hand over a great corner on the South East; and, what is far more important, it is proposed to hand over
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    to Italian colonisation—a nice, gentle phrase; not "annexation," but "colonisation," which reminds me rather of the nice distinction between the nationalisation and the unification of mining royalties—an enormous strip in the South of Abyssinia. If you examine those territories with a map, you will discover that at least half the country of Abyssinia is being handed over in this way to Italian domination. The Minister for League of Nations Affairs said it was an exchange of territory. I join with my hon. Friend the Member for the English Universities in asking what sort of exchange it is when half the whole country of Abyssinia is to be handed over to Italy, and in exchange Abyssinia is to have some rather indifferent access to the sea, possibly by a corridor which will be entirely under Italian control, or possibly by some harbour facilities on another part of the coast.
    Finally, the Minister for League of Nations Affairs told us that another recommendation to Abyssinia would be that she would have the assistance of the League in her future affairs. If I represented a country that had not a white population, I should say, "Thank you very much for your offer of assistance from the League." My impression is that this offer simply means putting the one part of Abyssinia that is left under its tutelage, which would be very nearly the same as annexation. If the terms which in fact are being put forward are in any respect similar to those, surely they cannot satisfy the meaning of the words used by the Prime Minister. It is a misuse of words to say that they fall in with what has been promised. We know that they may be forced down the throat of the League; they may be forced down the throat of Abyssinia, though that would be difficult; but they will not be forced down the throat of the people of this country, who believe that words are real things and that they should not be scrapped at the convenience of Ministers. I am certain that the publication of the news in the papers to-day has come as a great shock to the people of this country, and when they learn, as I fear they will learn, that these suggested terms are in fact and in substance the terms which are being offered to Italy, that shock will become dismay and consternation.

    855
    I have attempted to inquire what really is the genesis of these terms, and the more I have inquired, the more unpleasant have been the revelations that have come to me. When I look back over the history of our negotiations with Italy over the question of Abyssinia, I find that we have for a long time past made arrangements with Italy for the partition of Abyssinia. The Minister for League of Nations Affairs told us that there was no question of some Imperialist deal. I wonder whether that is the reason why, as I understand the progress of these negotiations, Signor Mussolini has been kept informed throughout of what has been going on. I do not say kept informed by the right hon. Gentleman here, but there is no doubt, I think, that he has been kept informed, by other parties to this question, of what has been taking place, and I would like to ask the Prime Minister whether the Negus of Abyssinia has equally been kept informed throughout of the negotiations that have been going on, because if there is to be anything like equality, surely it applies to that case as well as to the other.
    If these terms are carried out, and if there has been a juggling with the scales of justice in the matter, it is an outrage that the people of this country will not forgive. Hon. Members opposite may think that, after all, this is a very convenient and happy way of making peace. I wonder whether they saw that cartoon of Low's recently in the "Evening Standard," in which there was the prostrate figure of a Chinese gradually being eaten up by a tiger, called Japan, and the Chinese on the ground said, "All lite, all lite, eat up, but only eat so far." I wonder whether, if Signor Mussolini is given permission only to eat up so much of Abyssinia, he is likely to stop there, whether he is likely to stop in that part of Abyssinia, or whether he may be expected to go on, having eaten the whole of Abyssinia to eat other parts of the world as well.
    We cannot forget the talk that is going on in that country about re-creating the Roman Empire, and I ask the Government whether they hope by the terms that are now put forward to solve not only the immediate problems, but the problems of the future. I ask the Government to realise that there is a
    856
    large underlying opinion in this House and outside which distrusts this settlement and believes that if it is carried out it will do a very great injury in many respects. I hope that even at this twelfth hour they may see the wrong of the step they are proposing to take, and that they will take different action. If this policy is allowed to go unchallenged, it will not only betray Abyssinia and strike a blow—perhaps a fatal blow—at the League of Nations, but it will greatly damage British prestige and destroy all confidence in the word of British statesmen. It will usher in a future so threatening and so black that none of us can contemplate it without horror and dismay.
    Hon. Members on these benches feel so strongly on this question that they find it necessary to express their opinion in the form of a vote. In ordinary circumstances, they would not take the unusual course of giving a vote against the Address to the Throne. This Debate has arisen unexpectedly, and though in the form of a Debate on the Address, it is, in fact, a discussion on the policy of the Government on this one particular point. We are quite certain that it will not be regarded as any discourtesy to His Majesty, but that it will be regarded as the only means open to us of entering our emphatic protest against the terrible crime which seems likely to be committed. It is only that that leads us to take the unusual course on this occasion of voting against the Address.
    9.47 p.m.
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): We can take no exception to the last words which fell from the lips of the hon. Gentleman. We think that this is the only course open to the Opposition, who desire to express dissent from the conduct of the Government. I shall be but a short time to-night. I have seldom spoken with greater regret, for my lips are not yet unsealed. Were these troubles over I would make a case, and I guarantee that not a man would go into the Lobby against us. It is some years since the hon. Member was in the House, and as Members of his conviction must come to this House, I welcome one who was a Fellow of my old college. But I had forgotten what a suspicious nature he has. I can assure him that, so far as I know, no communications of any kind such as he suggests have gone either to

    857
    Addis Ababa or to Rome. He informed me as to the feelings of my own supporters. I generally have a knowledge of what they are thinking; but I quite agree that on occasions like this there is always anxiety when proposals are made, the full history of which is not known and cannot be disclosed. I remember quite well anxiety in many quarters when the suggestion was being put forward before the war broke out that a port should be obtained for Abyssinia at the expense of this country. I have great sympathy with all those anxieties. I would perhaps thank the hon. Gentleman for the compliments he paid me for my use of English language, and I would not say that the deductions he drew are false.
    I shall be a very short time because there is really nothing that I can say beyond what was said by my right hon. Friend the Minister for League of Nations Affairs. Some people speak of the League of Nations as though it were a kind of celestial body which is always right, whereas it is really a human body of fallible nations gathered in council and represented by fallible statesmen trying to do what they can to build up a League, which in time may perform all those services for humanity that we dreamed of when the League was first founded. I do not propose to-night to say anything about its constitution or its difficulties in the absence of certain great nations. I have often spoken on that. I do, however, want the House to remember that, much as they critcised the Government, and much as they may say that the League ought to do this or that, we, after all, cannot control the League of Nations. We have an influence there, and we use it, and shall continue to use it, but there are 50 nations in that League, and I would put to hon. Gentlemen opposite that it is no easy matter to get decisions or a continuous course from a body of 50 nations. There are gatherings, such as the Labour Conference at Brighton, where they all have the same ideals, seek to attain the same ends, and speak the same language, yet I am fully conscious that the proceedings are not always characterised by unanimity and that results are not always reached without difficulty; and, mutatis mutandis, conferences are the same at other places, whether they are held at Bournemouth or elsewhere.
    When you have a conference of many different nations with many different
    858
    histories and constitutions, trained in many different ways, and speaking different languages, the difficulty of securing unanimity and of securing a continuous course is almost insuperable, When this history comes to be written, I think every one will consider it remarkable how far the League has travelled and how much it has done. I listened, as every one in the House did, with great respect and interest to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for the Combined Universities (Miss Rathbone). I do not think, however, that these matters are so simple as she would have us believe. I tell her quite frankly that I should tremble if she were Foreign Secretary at this moment. The difficulties with which we are surrounded at present are difficulties that from their very nature I am unable to discuss in this House at present for fear of imperilling considerably the future in every way.
    I invite hon. Members opposite to look at any observations I have made on the League of Nations or anything that I have written, I was going to say, for years past. I do not think there is a word that I would retract, and I do not thins that, consciously, I have been false to a word that I have said. I have at times said things that have brought upon me the indignation of the League of Nations Union when I have hinted at the possibility of the League failing in its earlier attempts to secure peace by collective action. I have always recognised the possibility of that, and I was brought to book for it by the League of Nations Union; but, after all, I have never taken the view that if the League should fail we are to despair. It should be merely an incentive to try to do better next time.
    What I want to say to the House to-night is this, and it really sums up the whole position. We shall go on, as we have gone on, in conjunction with other members of the League, as far as those other members will go, as far as we can all go together. Unilateral action we do not propose to take now any more than we have ever proposed to take it. Our power is not absolute. I grant that our prestige is great. Hon. Members have said that it may be impaired by what is taking place to-night, and by our action. It may be so, but I hope not. Prestige rises and falls, and I think that in time people will appreciate the circumstances.

    859
    We may, perhaps, in detail have gone farther than some members would have gone. But, after all, you must remember that we were commissioned to make this inquiry with the French. My right hon. Friend will make his report. When he goes there my right hon. Friend is not going—not if he wished to do so—to enforce that basis of settlement on the League if the League do not want it. He cannot enforce it on Italy. He cannot enforce it on Abyssinia. We do not know at this moment what any of those three parties are going to say. If nothing results we have to try again later, by and by. This dualism is not impossible and, I am perfectly certain, will commend itself to the country. We shall have to consider again the whole question of how far sanctions may go. The hon. Lady spoke as though it were the simplest thing to stop oil going into Italy. It really is not. It is extraordinarily complicated. If you are going to do it you must be sure that your prohibition is effective. That is carrying out the dual policy that we have been carrying out.
    The hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) made an observation which, I believe, is really true. He said that a large number of the voters at the election would support sanctions but did not wish for war. I believe that is perfectly true. I do not believe anybody in this country wants war. There are very few people in Europe who do want war. The people of this country are following with the keenest interest what is now taking place. I say frankly and I assure the House that there is no cynicism in it, that we are learning and have learned a great deal in the last three months, as to what is possible at present in the world and what is not. The time will come when we
    shall be able to give our full experience to this House, and this House and the country may well have to consider, in the light of what they have learned, what we may be able to do in furthering the work of the League of Nations in the future.
    Beyond that there is really nothing that I could usefully say to-night. We are going on with exactly the same policy as we have been pursuing. We work in consonance with the League as far as and no further than it goes. It must be all or none. My right hon. Friend is, as he said, going to Geneva to-morrow, and we shall know very shortly what the reactions may be to the course we have been pursuing. Now I would ask the House whether it would be convenient to take the Division, because the time before Christmas is short. We have gladly given this extra time for this discussion, but we are most anxious to get the Committee stage of the Financial Resolution on the Railway (Money) Bill, on which hangs a great deal of employment. If we cannot get it to-night that will make it more inconvenient to try to get it before we rise at Christmas, which we very much want to do.
    Mr. GARRO-JONES: May I ask one question before we take the Division Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether these terms have been submitted to Italy and Abyssinia, and, if not, are they going to be submitted?
    The PRIME MINISTER: They are certainly going to be submitted.
    Mr. GARRO-JONES: When?
    Main Question put.
    The House divided: Ayes, 281; Noes, 139.

    Division No. 4.]

    AYES.

    [10.2 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

    Blaker, Sir R.

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Albery, I. J.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)

    Bower, Comdr. R. T.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)

    Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Channon, H.

    Aske, Sir R. W.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Assheton, R.

    Brass, Sir W.

    Chorlton, A. E. L.

    Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Clarry, R. G.

    Astor, Visc'tess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)

    Cobb, Sir C. S.

    Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

    Cochrane, Comdr. Hon. A. D.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)

    Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J.

    Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

    Bull, B. B.

    Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Burton, Col. H. W.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)

    Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury)

    Butler, R. A.

    Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)

    Butt, Sir A.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Bernays, R. H.

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.

    Birchall, Sir J. D.

    Cartland, J. R. H.

    Craddock, Sir R. H.

    Bird, Sir R. B.

    Cary, R. A.

    Crooke, J. S.

    Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.

    Jarvis, Sir J. J.

    Rankin, R.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Joel, D. J. B.

    Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)

    Cross, R. H.

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

    Rayner, Major R. H.

    Crossley, A. C.

    Jones, L. (Swansea, W.)

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Crowder, J. F. E.

    Keeling, E. H.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Cruddas, Col. B.

    Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)

    Remer, J. R.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C.

    Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

    Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

    Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil)

    Kerr, J. G. (Scottish Universities)

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Dawson, Sir P.

    Kimball, L.

    Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'nderry)

    Denville, A.

    Lamb, Sir J. O.

    Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)

    Dodd, J. S.

    Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)

    Rowlands, G.

    Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.

    Law, R. K. (Hull, S. W.)

    Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)

    Dower, Capt. A. V. G.

    Leckie, J. A.

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop)

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    Levy, T.

    Salt, E. W.

    Dugdale, Major T. L.

    Lewis, O.

    Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)

    Duggan, H. J.

    Liddall, W. S.

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

    Duncan, J. A. L.

    Lindsay, K. M.

    Savery, Servington

    Dunglass, Lord

    Little, Sir E. Graham-

    Scott, Lord William

    Dunne, P. R. R.

    Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.

    Selley, H. R.

    Eales, J. F.

    Lloyd, G. W.

    Shakespeare, G. H.

    Eckersley, P. T.

    Loder, Captain Hon. J. de V.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Loftus, P. C.

    Shepperson, Sir E. W.

    Edge, Sir W.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Lumley, Capt. L. R.

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

    Ellis, Sir G.

    Lyons, A. M.

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Elliston, G. S.

    Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)

    Smith, L. W. (Hallam)

    Emery, J. F.

    MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G.

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    Emmott, C. E. G. C.

    M'Connoll, Sir J.

    Somerset, T.

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)

    Entwistle, C. F.

    McEwen, Capt. H. J. F.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Errington, E.

    McKie, J. H.

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, E.)

    Erskine Hill, A. G.

    Maclay, Hon. J. P.

    Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.

    Fildes, Sir H.

    Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.

    Spender-Clay Lt.-Cl. Rt. Hn. H. H.

    Fleming, E. L.

    Magnay, T.

    Spens, W. P.

    Fox, Sir G. W. G.

    Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Furness, S. N.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir M.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Stewart, J. Henderson (File, E.)

    Gibson, C. G.

    Maxwell, S. A.

    Storey, S.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)

    Stourton, Hon. J. J.

    Gledhill, G.

    Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.)

    Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)

    Gluckstein, L. H.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Goldie, N. B.

    Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Goodman, Col. A. W.

    Moreing, A. C.

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Gower, Sir R. V.

    Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)

    Tate, Mavis C.

    Graham Captain A. C. (Wirral)

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Granville, E. L.

    Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Grigg, Sir E. W. M.

    Nall, Sir J.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H.

    Thomson, Sir J. D. W.

    Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N. W.)

    Nicolson, Hon. H. G.

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Guinness, T. L. E. B.

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Touche, G. C.

    Gunston, Capt. D. W.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.

    Tree, A. R. L. F.

    Guy, J. C. M.

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Palmer, G. E. H.

    Turton, R. H.

    Harbord, A.

    Patrick, C. M.

    Wakefield, W. W.

    Harvey, G.

    Peake, O.

    Walker-Smith, Sir J.

    Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)

    Peat, C. U.

    Wallace, Captain Euan

    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Penny, Sir G.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

    Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.

    Ward, Irene (Wallsend)

    Hepworth, J.

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Peters, Dr. S. J.

    Wedderburn, H. J. S.

    Herbert, Captain S. (Abbey)

    Petherick, M.

    Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon)

    Plugge, L. F.

    Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)

    Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Hopkinson, A.

    Porritt, R. W.

    Wilson, Lt.-Cot. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

    Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

    Pownall, Sir A. Assheton

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir R. S.

    Preston, Sir W. R.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Procter, Major H. A.

    Womersley, Sir W. J.

    Howitt, Dr. A. B.

    Purbrick, R.

    Wragg, H.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

    Radford, F. A.

    Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Ralkes, H. V. A. M.

    Hunter, T.

    Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Mr. Blindell and Mr. James Stuart.

    James, Wing-commander A. W.

    Ramsden, Sir E.

    NOES.

    Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Benson, G.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Banfield, J. W.

    Bevan, A.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Barnes, A. J.

    Broad, F. A.

    Adamson, W. M.

    Barr, J.

    Bromfield, W.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

    Batey, J.

    Buchanan, G.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Bellenger, F.

    Burke, W. A.

    862

    863

    Cape, T.

    Jagger, J.

    Quibell, J. D.

    Charieton, H. C.

    Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)

    Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)

    Chater, D.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.

    Riley, B.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

    Ritson, J.

    Cocks, F. S.

    Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.)

    Compton, J.

    Jones, J. J. (Silvertown)

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Rothschild, J. A. de

    Daggar, G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Rowson, G.

    Dalton, H.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

    Salter, Dr. A.

    Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

    Kirby, B. V.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Lathan, G.

    Seely, Sir H. M.

    Day, H.

    Lawson, J. J.

    Sexton, T. M.

    Dobbie, W.

    Leach, W.

    Shinwell, E.

    Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)

    Lee, F.

    Silverman, S. S.

    Ede, J. C.

    Leonard, W.

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    Leslie, J. R.

    Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

    Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

    Logan, D. G.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.

    Lunn, W.

    Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

    Frankel, D.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Gallacher, W.

    McGovern, J.

    Stephen, C.

    Gardner, B. W.

    Maclean, N.

    Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)

    Garro-Jones, G. M.

    MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

    MacNeill, Weir, L.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Gibbins, J.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Thorne, W.

    Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)

    Mander, G. le M.

    Thurtle, E.

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Marklew, E.

    Viant, S. P.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Marshall, F.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Maxton, J.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    Milner, Major J.

    Watson, W. McL.

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

    Montague, F.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Morrison, Rt. Hn. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Westwood, J.

    Hardie, G. D.

    Naylor, T. E.

    White, H. Graham

    Harris, Sir P. A.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Wilkinson, Ellen

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Paling, W.

    Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Parker, H. J. H.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Parkinson, J. A.

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Holland, A.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Hollins, A.

    Potts, J.

    Hopkin, D.

    Price, M. P.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Mathers and Mr. Whiteley.

    Resolution agreed to.

    Resolved,
    "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth—
    MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN,
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."
    To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of His Majesty's Household.

    SUPPLY.
    Resolved,
    "That this House will, To-morrow, resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to His Majesty."—[Captain Margesson.]
    Ordered,
    "That the Estimates presented to this House during the present Session be referred to the Committee of Supply."

    WAYS AND MEANS.
    Resolved,
    "That this House will, To-morrow, resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be granted to His Majesty."—[Captain Margesson.]

  RAILWAYS (AGREEMENT) [MONEY].
  Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 69.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That, with a view to enabling effect to be given to an agreement made on the thirtieth day of November, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, between the Treasury, the Great Western Railway Company, the London Midland and Scottish Railway Company, the London and North Eastern Railway Company, and the Southern Railway Company, a copy whereof was laid before this House on the third day of December, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, it is expedient—
  (a) to authorise the Treasury to guarantee the payment of the principal and interest of securities to be issued by the

  865
  company to be formed in pursuance of Clause 3 of the said agreement:
  Provided that the amount of the principal of the securities to be so guaranteed shall not in the aggregate exceed an amount sufficient to raise twenty-six million five hundred thousand pounds;
  (b) to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required for fulfilling the said guarantee and the payment into the Exchequer of any moneys received by way of repayment of any sums so issued;
  (c) to exempt the said agreement and other agreements mentioned in paragraph (b) of Clause 2 of the said agreement from stamp duty;
  (d) to make certain provisions ancillary to the matters aforesaid."—(King's Recommendation signified.)—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
  10.15 p.m.
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): Hon. Members who were Members of the late House of Commons will remember that in June I had occasion to introduce a very similar Resolution to that which is now on the Paper. That Resolution was in connection with the scheme for the extension of works by the London Passenger Transport Board. The present Resolution is in connection with another project, and this time it concerns not London alone but a very much wider field, namely the whole country as covered by the four main-line railways. This project is just another example of the policy of His Majesty's Government in promoting further useful schemes of public works which offer a prospect of providing considerable employment and of adding to the valuable assets of the country.
  I remember that on the last occasion to which I have referred the Resolution was received with approbation, I might almost say with enthusiasm, by the Opposition, some of whom even suggested that it was a piece of their thunder which had been stolen by the Government. I am quite ready to argue that point, but I would only express the hope that the present project will receive full approval from the benches opposite. In this case, the works to be provided by the four main-line railways are of a very extensive character. They are described more fully in the schedule to Command Paper 5027, but I may just summarise them by saying that there are, among them, new lines, extensions of existing lines, electrification of existing lines, reconstruction of a number of
  866
  stations including the re-construction of Euston, which is the most important and largest single item in the list, the construction of over 400 new steam locomotives, the construction also of a number of other vehicles and the provision of safety signalling and other equipment. Altogether it may be said that this project, if carried through, will provide employment in a great number of different districts in the country, including, I hope, the special areas, which are to have preference, other things being equal, and that it will add considerably to the comfort, convenience and safety of passengers.
  I would add that this programme is entirely additional to the ordinary programmes of the railways which from time to time are published in the papers. It is a programme which could not have been carried through if it had not been possible for the Government to offer the railways peculiarly favourable financial terms for the raising of the necessary funds. The Resolution, upon which I am speaking, will authorise a Bill, the Second Reading of which will be taken on Friday. It will be only a short Bill, containing two operative Clauses. It will be particularly necessary that the Bill be passed before Christmas, in order that we may be quite certain of making sure of the present financial situation, and that the work will be put in hand as soon as possible. For that reason I am going to cut my remarks as short as possible this evening, in order that other Members may have an opportunity of making any points that they wish to make. I would, however, remind them that there will be further opportunities for debate on the Report stage and on the Bill itself, and I hope, therefore, that it will be possible for me to get the Committee stage of this Resolution by eleven o'clock this evening.
  For the benefit of hon. Members who were not Members of the last Parliament, I think it would perhaps be convenient if I were just briefly to describe the method of procedure which it is proposed to adopt in order to carry out the finance of this proposal. The method is the formation by the Treasury of a Finance Company. This Finance Company, when formed, will issue securities, which will be guaranteed as to principal and interest by the Treasury, for the

  867
  purpose of raising a sum of £26,500,000, and from the Finance Company in turn the railway companies will borrow as and when they require the money to undertake the works specified in the Schedules, provided, of course, that the railway companies obtain from Parliament the powers which it will be necessary for them to get before they can put the works in hand.
  The loan which is to be raised by the Finance Company will be of comparatively short duration. Hon. Members will no doubt appreciate that, the shorter the period the lower the rate of interest that will have to be charged. It will be from 15 to 25 years. The exact period is left to be settled by the Treasury in the light of the market conditions prevailing. The loan, when it matures, will have to be repaid, and the railway companies, as there is no sinking fund, with one small exception, will have to borrow again, in order to repay the sums which they have borrowed from the Finance Company, when those sums become due.
  That is the procedure. It may perhaps give rise to two questions, which I will answer in anticipation. The first is: Why is it necessary to have a device of this kind? Why have a statutory company? Why not let the railway companies themselves raise the money? That is a very natural and reasonable question, and it is one which, as I say, I anticipated. The reason is this: The railway companies will have to get statutory powers before they can carry out these works at all. That will take some time. By forming the Finance Company, the money can be raised at once, and we do not have to wait, therefore, until the statutory powers have been obtained by the railways. At the present time, as I have said, the prevailing rates of interest are exceptionally low. I have no reason to suppose that in the course of the next few months they are going to rise, but I cannot say that they will not rise, and, as the whole project is really dependent upon the power of the railway companies to obtain this money very cheaply, it is just making certain of the project by raising the money now, when we know that the conditions are favourable.
  There is a second point, which is not of such importance. The Finance Company will raise the whole of the money
  868
  at once. The whole of the money will, of course, not be required at once, and what is not required will be invested by the Finance Company until it is wanted. Of course it would be possible for the railways to do the same thing, but I think the House will probably agree that it is reasonable to suppose that the Finance Company, dealing with the whole sum, will be able to invest what is not at once required more conveniently than four separate railways, each undertaking to invest a smaller amount on its own account.
  The second question that may be asked is, Why is the total amount which the Finance Company will be authorised to raise only £26,500,000, whereas the total cost of the works that are in prospect is estimated at £29,500,000—a difference of £3,000,000 between the two figures? The answer is that the other £3,000,000 will be provided by the railways themselves, or some of them, out of their own resources. The agreement itself is scheduled in this Command Paper. There are a number of Clauses and, if I had had a greater amount of time, I would have devoted myself to explaining some of them in more detail.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Why not now?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If we do not get the Committee stage by eleven o'clock to-night it will throw the Timetable out of order and there is a risk that we may not get the Bill before Christmas, which I am sure the Committee will not wish. I do not want to shirk any questions that anyone may desire to put on any particular Clause and, although I think that most of the Clauses are self-explanatory, there may be some obscure points on which Members would desire further information and, if so, the Financial Secretary or I will answer them. Without saying any more at this stage, I commend the Resolution to the Committee.
  10.29 p.m.
  Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: The Committee will appreciate that, owing to the arrangement arrived at through the usual channels, we are commencing, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, very late in the consideration of this Resolution. I do not know whether the Government has any suggestion to make to meet the difficulty, but there are several

  869
  Members who wish to speak on this side and, while we do not wish to raise undue difficulties, we should like it to be possible in some way for facilities to be given for adequate discussion, which is obviously impossible if the Resolution is to go through by eleven o'clock to-night. I hope the Government may be able to make some suggestion upon that point in order to facilitate business. I should like to say, in the first place, as I said some weeks ago, that, in important financial matters of this kind which affect the relationships between the State and great private statutory undertakings, it is unfortunate that such arrangements between the State and private capital should be announced in the middle of an election campaign. It is undesirable and it leads people to suspect that the railway companies and the Government have come to an agreement for political purposes. The Government are open to be shot at in that direction, and that is our business. But it will be a pity, looking at the matter from the point of view of their own interests and the respect which this House has for such undertakings, if these great statutory undertakings, which have constant relations with the State and with Ministers, should lend themselves to a situation which leads not unreasonably to the interpretation that the railway companies have co-operated with the Government for the purpose of electoral advantage.
  Sir ROBERT HORNE: Let me assure the right hon. Gentleman at once that these negotiations were entered into between the railway companies and the Government long before there was any thought of any Election.
  Mr. MORRISON: That I understand, but if the negotiations were conducted for a long time, it is a pity that they did not finish well before the Election. Frankly, if I had represented the railway companies and had been in the position of the right hon. Gentleman as chairman of a railway company, I should have said within 10 days of the Election, "There is going to be no public agreement until this Election is over." That is what he ought to have done. I suppose that this device which the Government are using does not come within the category of unification referred to in connection with mining royalties yesterday. But what
  870
  does it indicate? This Financial Resolution very clearly indicates that private enterprise or private capital can no longer stand upon its own feet in particular undertakings. That is an admission of very serious import and, involves the Committee and the country in considerations of what should be the best method and the consequences of these financial guarantees on the part of the State to private statutory undertakings. At any rate the bringing forward of this Resolution by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is an admission that the old boast that private capital can finance itself and can be self-reliant without intervention by the State is no longer true, and we now get the position established that the State has to prop up private capitalist undertakings in order that they can function. I warn hon. Gentlemen opposite that the distance from that point to the recognition of the full Socialist case is not very far, and to that extent we are not undisposed to welcome this Resolution to-night as a good example and as an argument which will be useful to us, and that in fact private capitalism is in part breaking down and can no longer stand upon its own feet.
  I should like to know from somebody speaking for the Government whether all these works which it is proposed to put in hand are strictly abnormal works which in no case the railway companies would have put in hand without this State guarantee. I am bound to say that in looking through the list of works which are to be financed under a guarantee of the taxpayers quite a number of them are the kind of works which I should have expected the railway companies to put in hand anyway. Frankly, I am not disposed to agree that the railway companies would not have done this work if the State had not given a guarantee.
  What I am apprehensive about is this: If private undertakings get into the habit of thought that they can go to politicians, to Ministers—they are politicians—and can tell them: "Look here, we can provide a certain amount of employment and, incidentally, we can provide you with a good electoral story if the State provides a guarantee for the expenditure," I say to the Committee in all seriousness and with very great earnestness that if that process continues far it will not be long before private

  871
  undertakings have degenerated from the former status which hon. Members regarded them as holding, that of courageous private enterprises, and will have degenerated into a poor law, public assistance frame of mind. It will be exceedingly serious if captains of industry like the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne), the chairman of a great railway company, gets the idea into his mind: "It is no longer necessary for my company to be self-reliant, no longer necessary for it to show enterprise, because I can, provided that a right case is put up, get assistance or a guarantee from the State that will help us in our troubles." When you get to that point that private undertakings can no longer be relied upon to stand on their own feet, you are in danger of demoralising them and destroying their self-reliance and their initiative, and when you get to that point you had far better be occupied in socialising transport as a public concern than in playing about with private undertakings in this way.
  I should like to know how much of this programme is strictly abronmal work which the companies would not have put in hand in any case. I shall need a good deal of convincing, and so will my hon. Friends, that all this work, certainly the bulk of it, would not have been done in any case even if the State had not put up this guarantee. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has not told us how many man years of employment will be given by this work. The present Colonial Secretary used to be a great authority on man years. I am not saying that in any critical way. I have very great sympathy for the life he led at that moment, and I have sympathy of another sort for the life he leads at the present time. Perhaps sympathy is not the word, but I will let it pass. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has not told us, and we ought to be told, how many man years of employment this programme involves. The House ought to have this information. Another point is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the guarantee which the Government gave with the assent of this House to the London Passenger Transport Board, but I would point out that this guarantee is in a very different category from that given to the London Passenger Transport Board. That Transport Board is a public
  872
  authority. It was defined as a public authority by Act of Parliament and it has the status of a public authority. These railway companies are private capitalist undertakings. It is true that they are statutory undertakings but nevertheless they are private undertakings. I will be quite frank about this matter. We on this side cannot look upon guarantees to private statutory undertakings with the friendliness that we should look upon State guarantees to public authorities conducting a service primarily for the public advantage.
  I have roughly covered the points with which we are concerned, and I would add this: We have an apprehension that this addition to railway capital, with a State guarantee, without any conditions, without any concern as to the internal finance of the railway companies, without any element of public control following that State guarantee, is dangerous from the point of view of the public interest. It is undoubtedly the case that British railways are grossly over-capitalised at the present time. They are carrying a very high proportion of capital which undoubtedly is no longer productive. When trade unions are met by the railway companies and arguments are submitted to the Railway Rates Tribunal about charges the argument is often based—I think not so much in the case of the tribunal which is concerned with the standard revenue under the Railways Act, 1921—on the amount of interest per £100 of nominal ordinary stock that is paid to the shareholders. That argument is no longer sound in the case of British railways. It is time that there was a complete clean up of railway finance and a reconstruction of the capital of railway undertakings. It is wrong, and indeed unhealthy, that the railways should nominally be carrying a capital which is seriously in excess of the real productive capital employed in these undertakings.
  My last point is that these are new developments, and it is probable but not certain that the State will not have to make any financial contribution at the end of the day, assuming that the railway companies do not fail. If they fail presumably the Finance Company would have certain rights in respect of the debentures it is to receive as collateral security. But if this process is going to extend the State guarantee to provide capital we are bound to raise the ques-

  873
  tion, and we shall do when we get an opportunity of raising it in a concrete form, as to the desirability of saying to the great undertakings that if they want a State guarantee there must be a reasonable proportion, it may be a small proportion but it will have to grow, of representatives of the State on boards of directors. That is the line upon which the Opposition are thinking. At any rate, it ought to be a consideration which Ministers should have in mind in view of these developments which the Government are encouraging and under which private enterprise will tend to extend over an increasing field in order to get State money. We, therefore, are in the position that we shall not, although we have some misgivings, resist the Resolution to-night. We appreciate that there will be some advantages to the public in the improvement of travelling facilities and we do not propose to vote against the Resolution or to divide the House. But that decision has been come to with some doubt and after some discussion, because we really are rather apprehensive on the two points—the tendency of capitalist undertaking to form up in a Poor Law queue at Whitehall outside Ministers' doors waiting for some assistance by the State, and that the guarantee is not accompanied by proper State representation in the internal management of the undertaking. We intend, therefore, not to dissent from the Resolution, but our dissent must be taken to be subject to the very serious reservations I have indicated.
  10.44 p.m.
  Mr. D. EVANS: I do not wish to stand between the Committee and its approval of the Resolution, but I want to associate myself with some of the remarks made by the right hon. Member for South Hackney (Mr. H. Morrison). My friends and I do not propose to oppose the Resolution, and one reason why I do not propose to take up the time of the House now is that I am anxious to see this work, whatever extent it may cover, put in hand at the earliest possible moment. We believe that it will give facilities for employment to many people who are now unemployed. I appeal to the Committee to consider this Resolution on its merits. I do not know what were the motives of the Government in announcing the scheme at the
  874
  particular moment when it was announced. Let us, at any rate, forget that matter and consider the merits of the Resolution itself. In view of the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has indicated that there will be other opportunities of discussing it, I do not propose at this stage to do more than ask for some further information from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I associate myself with the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Hackney. I, too, wish to have an assurance, such as he asked for, that the work to be done under this scheme is extra to the work which would normally be included in the programme of the railway companies for the next five years.
  As to the allocation of the money which is to be provided I notice that the Great Western Railway Company, under this Resolution, is to spend an extra sum of about £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 over five or six years. That seems a very small amount and I should have thought that the Great Western Railway Company, with its financial structure as it now is, could easily have provided that money out of its own resources. I also want some assurance with regard to the guarantee of work for the special areas. There is a provision under the agreement that work is to be given to firms in the special areas. What check is there upon the railway companies in that respect. What means are there of discovering whether the work is being given to firms in the special areas and upon what terms. I understand the Minister of Transport is to supervise the allocation of the work. What machinery is there in his department to secure that a fair share of the work is given to the distressed areas? I am thinking particularly of South Wales.
  In regard to the work in the schedule of the Great Western Railway Company I would point out that beyond the rebuilding of one station, Llanelly, and a small branch line at Porthcawl, there is not any work on that great railway system for South Wales although South Wales has, I think, been responsible to a great degree for providing the revenue of the Great Western Railway. What security is there that special work will be provided in a distressed area like South Wales by the Great Western Railway Company. Suggestions have been made in the Press that railway extensions

  875
  should be provided to connect the coal areas with the western region of Wales so as to distribute the coal more economically in West Wales. We have heard from the Prime Minister and other Ministers that one of the great drawbacks in connection with the distressed areas is the fact that those areas are not good distributing centres. What is proposed to be done by the Great Western Railway Company to make the South Wales area which has provided such a large amount of its revenue in the past, a better distributing centre for Wales and the West of England.
  There is also the question of the electrification of the railways. There is not a word in this schedule about electrification except in regard to the London Midland and Scottish and the London and North Eastern railways. Surely there must be ample opportunity for suitable schemes of electrification in South Wales and Glamorganshire. I should like to have further elucidation on these points from the Minister. And again, on the point which the Chancellor explained of the necessity for having a Finance Company, does it not increase the cost of this financing to have this buffer Company? In that case the whole of the money will not go towards providing work for the unemployed.
  Mr. H. MORRISON: I ought to make it clear that whatever we may do tonight, the Chancellor will understand that on the Committee and other stages of the Bill we must be free to move Amendments. Perhaps the Chancellor would indicate the future course of the Measure?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: In reply to that request for information, it is obviously impossible to give any reply to-night to the questions raised by the right hon. Gentleman and others. For reasons which I have given before, we are extremely anxious to get the Committee stage of the Resolution to-night. I think the succeeding stages will give the House all the opportunity they require to have the questions elaborated and discussed. It is proposed to take the Report stage of the Resolution to-morrow night—that will be exempted business after eleven o'clock—but to devote the whole of Friday to the discussion of the Bill; and,
  876
  of course, all these points that have been raised on the Resolution can be raised also on the Bill, because the agreement will be a Schedule to the Bill.
  10.53 p.m.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I am afraid that I cannot accept the Chancellor's suggestion on this matter, and speaking for myself and my friends it is our purpose to divide on this Resolution to-night. We were not parties to the earlier discussions which delayed this Bill, and if this Bill be delayed the responsibility is not on us. If people like to go and upset other arrangements which have been made and throw them aside they must not shift the responsibility for that on somebody else. The second Debate to-morrow will be on the distressed areas, on a Motion moved by the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell). Everyone knows that there will be a Division on it and that it cannot finish much before 11.15, and thereafter the discussion on this railway development must be very limited. Some cognizance ought to be had of the fact that more and more private Members ought to insist between 11 and 11.30 on some right to the adherence of private Members' time. It is for Mr. Speaker to say what discussion will be allowed on any stage of a Bill, and once the Financial Resolution has gone through this House, perhaps the most valuable opportunity for discussion has gone, because once you have granted finance, that becomes the overriding power and in many respects is the final consideration.
  Let me say to my Liberal friends who supported a subsidy on the last occasion when it was discussed in this House that I am not here to sneer at the smallness of the numbers of the Liberal party, because we have an affinity in that regard, and largeness or smallness does not usually make a case right or wrong, but I thought we had a common belief that we should fight against the use of State money for private subsidies. The last occasion on which the right hon. Gentleman and I crossed swords on this question was on the grant of £4,000,000 or something like that for the building of the "Queen Mary." It was then held out that public money ought to be used for the building of a great ship, and the same reason was given that some kind of work

  877
  would be given to someone or other. To-night everybody could come to this House and say the same thing. I have only just left a constituent of mine who has a cap factory and makes children's wear, and he tells me with great sincerity that if the Government would only guarantee him capital and interest for the next five years, he could build a great factory and employ tens of thousands of people. Every private capitalist in Britain would say the same.
  Indeed, when I hear this talk about private enterprise I look at the Co-operative movement, which is not a statutory undertaking, and those of you who boast of great financial genius may take a lesson from that movement. Here is the great Co-operative movement, run by working people of diverse political views and interest, expanding day by day and week by week, without coming and begging of this or any other Government for financial guarantees. If they did, the first people to rise in this House and object would be the Conservative Members, led by the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne). Just imagine the Co-operative movement coming here and asking from the late Labour Government, headed by the right hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) for a loan. It would simply mean that the Co-operative movement had come begging and borrowing from the Exchequer.
  I must differ from most of my colleagues on all sides of the House, just as I differed on the "Queen Mary," on this idea that it is providing work. To that I most emphatically and deliberately dissent. I am a Socialist, and, generally speaking, I take the view that the more efficient you make capital, the more you make it more comfortable for me to travel, and even more safe, the greater you have made the difficulties of the working people. What has happened with your amalgamations, taking your mining and your shipping industries? You have amalgamated your industries and made them more efficient and able to produce more, but each time you have done it you have led to social wastage, and that social wastage is the human beings who have put their lives into the
  878
  industry. I see a distinguished Member opposite from the same city as myself, and I knew he would be here to-night when we were discussing railways, but I do not know what Scotland is to get out of this. Scotland is to get the additional carriage and storage sidings at Edinburgh, Craigendoran, and Cowlairs, and additional facilities at Bathgate Junction and Broxburn. I know we may get a share here and there. There is the London, Midland and Scottish Railway Company. I plead guilty to not being an authority on finance. The two things I dodge, as I am not an authority on them, are finance and foreign affairs. I find my interest in Gorbals enough. I do not know the capital of the London, Midland and Scottish Railway, but it must run into a considerable sum of money—
  It being Eleven of the Clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to continue certain expiring laws, it is expedient to authorise the payments, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of such expenses (if any), and the payment into the Exchequer of such receipts (if any), as may be occasioned by the continuance of the Debts Clearing Offices and Import Restrictions Act, 1934, being expenses and receipts directed by section five of that Act to be respectively defrayed out of such moneys and paid into the Exchequer."
  The remaining Order was read, and postponed.

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE [MONEY].

    ADJOURNMENT.
    Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
    Adjourned accordingly at Two Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

UNEMPLOYMENT.
  ASSISTANCE (CHRISTMAS AND WINTER ALLOWANCES).
  ASSISTANCE (CHRISTMAS AND WINTER ALLOWANCES).
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS, SCOTLAND.
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS, SCOTLAND.
  ASSISTANCE BOARD CIRCULARS.
  ASSISTANCE BOARD CIRCULARS.
  PONTYPRIDD.
  PONTYPRIDD.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  HOUSING.
  HOUSING.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  LEAGUE OF NATIONS (TARIFFS).
  LEAGUE OF NATIONS (TARIFFS).
  EXPORT TRADE (STATISTICS).
  EXPORT TRADE (STATISTICS).
  CANADA AND UNITED STATES (COMMERCIAL AGREEMENT).
  CANADA AND UNITED STATES (COMMERCIAL AGREEMENT).
  PARAGUAY (BRITISH ARMS EXPORTS).
  PARAGUAY (BRITISH ARMS EXPORTS).
  WIRELESS RECEIVING LICENCES.
  WIRELESS RECEIVING LICENCES.
INDIA.
  EMERGENCY POWERS ACT (INTERNEES).
  EMERGENCY POWERS ACT (INTERNEES).
  AMIR HYDER KHAN.
  AMIR HYDER KHAN.
  MR. MUZAFFAR AHMAD.
  MR. MUZAFFAR AHMAD.
  GOVERNMENT OFFICES (FURNITURE).
  GOVERNMENT OFFICES (FURNITURE).
  AGRICULTURE (PIGS).
  AGRICULTURE (PIGS).
  FISHING INDUSTRY (TRAWLER NETS).
  FISHING INDUSTRY (TRAWLER NETS).
  MOTORISTS (DRIVERS' LICENCES).
  MOTORISTS (DRIVERS' LICENCES).
  PASSPORT VISAS.
  PASSPORT VISAS.
  SPAIN (CAPTAIN KANE'S IMPRISONMENT).
  SPAIN (CAPTAIN KANE'S IMPRISONMENT).
  GERMAN EMBASSY (PAMPHLET).
  GERMAN EMBASSY (PAMPHLET).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

INDIAN ORDERS COMMITTEE.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper. This is the Committee which your Lordships sanctioned by the Amendment to Standing Orders which I moved last week.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all drafts of Orders laid before Parliament under Sections 309 and 475 of the Government of India Act, 1935, in the present Session; and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee—

M. Zetland,

M. Reading,

V. Goschen,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Rankeillour,

L. Hutchison of Montrose.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ROTHESAY CORPORATION GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Considered on Report (according to Order).
BRIDGE OF ALLAN GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Considered on Report (according to Order).
NATIONAL TRUST FOR SCOTLAND ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Considered on Report (according to Order).
PERTH CORPORATION ORDER CON FIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Considered on Report (according to Order).

HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT (CON VENTIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill which passed your Lordships' House in all its stages during the last Parliament—a Bill to carry out certain draft International Conventions relating to the employment of women during the night and to hours of work in automatic sheet glass works; to amend the law relating to the hours of employment of women holding responsible positions of management who are not ordinarily engaged in manual work; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid. I beg to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

VOLUNTARY HOSPITALS (PAYING PATIENTS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD LUKE: My Lords, last Session the House passed this Bill as it is now reintroduced. It received its Second Reading in the other House last July, but there was no time available for its later stages. In moving the Second Reading again to-day, I desire merely to clarify the considerations which animated those responsible for its introduction and to remove certain misconceptions. The object of this Bill is to put all hospitals on a level, as far as possible, in their power to meet certain present-day needs. Voluntary hospitals with modern trust deeds have no legal hindrance to prevent them providing for all classes who need hospital treatment. Their primary function is to provide beds for the sick poor in the ordinary sense of the term. They often provide a comparatively small number of pay beds for the blackcoated poor of the middle and professional classes, who are able to pay a moderate weekly charge, but cannot afford what they would have to pay elsewhere. They sometimes also provide a still smaller number of beds for patients who need treatments which, however well-off they may be, these patients are often unable to obtain anywhere except at a hospital,

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and who are charged at rates proportionate to their means, thus yielding the hospital a profit which helps it to pay for its poorer patients.
The need for these new services results partly from the modern developments of elaborate and expensive methods of diagnosis and treatment, and partly from recent economic changes which have produced what are called the new poor. These new services have been provided in addition to, and not in diminution of, the maintenance and extension of the ordinary beds. But at some hospitals the trust deeds were settled long ago, when medical treatment was a very simple and inexpensive affair and hospital accommodation was only needed by the very poor. The result is that, at some hospitals, these ancient trusts are so worded that the hospital cannot legally provide for any patients, other than the sick poor in the original sense of the term, even with money specially collected or received for the purpose; and, if the hospital has occasionally to treat any other patients, because the treatments are unobtainable elsewhere, it has no legal power to charge them what they are able to pay. Nor can it provide special accommodation for them, even if it could do so at a profit. It is certainly hard on the older hospitals not to be able to provide these modern facilities which some other hospitals can provide. It is also hard on particular neighbourhoods not to be able to enjoy these modern facilities which other neighbourhoods can enjoy.
The object of this Bill is to give the Charity Commissioners power, in suitable cases, to remove these anomalies, by enabling such hospitals to provide pay beds so long as this is not done at the expense of, or to the detriment of, the primary work which they are doing, of providing for the sick poor. The Bill contains ample precautions against any risk that trusts for the direct benefit of the sick poor will be disregarded. In addition to the control given to the Charity Commissioners, there are special safeguards, introduced into the Bill last Session by the Government, to ensure that funds and property acquired under the original trusts cannot be diverted to any other purpose. In actual practice experience shows that fie provision of pay beds benefits the whole community, including the sick poor themselves. The hospital with pay beds serves patients
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who would otherwise be unable to obtain the latest treatments and who often become grateful supporters. Patients who can afford to pay can be charged what they can afford; and there is often an actual profit which helps the hospital to carry on its ordinary work. There need be no fear that anything in this Bill would enable hospitals to diminish their work for the sick poor, even if they wanted to do so. The safeguards in the Bill would prevent them from reducing their ordinary work: the powers given by the Bill would assist them to increase it. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Luke.)
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I only desire to say on behalf of the Government that when this Bill was first introduced the Government, as your Lordships may recollect, intimated that provided certain changes were made in the text, to ensure that the objects of existing trusts would be maintained, they would support the Bill. Various Amendments to secure that the objects of the original trust should be maintained and the rights of poorer patients safeguarded were agreed between the promoters and the Government and they reappear in this Bill. In those circumstances the Government fully support, the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (REPRINT ING) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

MALTA.
LORD STRICKLAND LORD STRICKLAND had given Notice that he would call attention to the defence possibilities of Malta and the political and economic conditions of the Island; and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it may be permissible to congratulate His Majesty's Government on the great change in strategy in Malta since last July. Then it was generally held, and confirmed by facts more eloquent than words, that the strategy was based upon a belief that Malta could not be defended from air

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attack, and that in certain circumstances the Island would have to be abandoned, with the expectation that it would be easily reconquered after a long war, which it was assumed would be necessarily successful. Last July, from these Benches, His Majesty's Government was reminded that the abandonment of Malta for any reason whatsoever would be a most horrible going-back from covenants and pacts entered into between His Majesty's predecessors at the end of the Napoleonic wars and the representatives of the Maltese nation. After that—I do not say because of that—there was a hasty rearmament of Malta. The defence that had apparently been altogether neglected was pushed forward with marvellous and efficient rapidity. That Malta would be held became abundantly plain. Every possible landing-place is now protected by barbed wire. If you go to see a friend you are not asked into the drawing room, but into the gasproof chamber. Ladies who are leaders of society are photographed in their gas-masks. There are rehearsals of the putting-out of the lights in case of air-raids at night.
Much more, however, remains to be done to obliterate the very far-reaching and dangerous impression that Malta cannot be defended from air attack, an impression which has been the subject of unchecked propaganda among members of the Service to such an extent that it has almost invited preparations for a coup de main, which we have witnessed very ably arranged within less than an hour's flying distance from Malta. A debt of gratitude is due by Malta and His Majesty's Government to General Godley, who was recently relieved of his responsibilities at the end of his term of office as Governor of Gibraltar. He has published in the London Press the valuable opinions of an expert to the effect that the consequences of an air attack on Gibraltar need not cause apprehension, for the reason that the underground galleries are so ample and so available that the stores and munitions necessary for defence are quite safe from attack. There is also room for the shelter of the civil population. What has, according to that weighty authority, been done in Gibraltar is more easily achievable in Malta inasmuch as the rock of Gibraltar is hard and has to be blasted,
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whereas Malta stands on ground which is easily quarried without blasting, and the result of quarrying there has a market value as building stone.
About ten years ago the necessity of arranging underground hangars in Malta was put forward from the back benches of the House of Commons, but it received no attention. To-day in Berlin there is the largest centre of air activity in the world. The administration buildings contain more than 2,200 rooms, and the aerodrome is surrounded by underground hangars that are invisible and bombproof. If in Malta there be concentrated a sufficient force of aircraft for counterattack under such conditions that that air force cannot be bombed or destroyed, I put it to your Lordships' House that, even if you could not say that there never would be an attack, one would be very unlikely. It becomes most improbable that there would be an attack on Malta if a counter-attack could be delivered with the certainty of return and the forces for achieving it could be kept in reserve with the certainty that they could not be destroyed.
The point that I particularly wish to submit to your Lordships' House is that if an air raid were attempted on Malta, the bombs would not be wasted in attempts to destroy fortifications and buildings, much less on the population, but the landing-places provided for aircraft that alights on wheels would be broken up and rendered useless in a manner which would necessitate a long time for repairs and which might be arranged for at a critical moment. The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, who made his maiden speech in this House with the assertion of the authority of experts that expenditure on additional facilities for the alighting of aircraft that comes down upon the water is a waste of money and quite useless, not to be recommended or encouraged even remotely, lost sight of what I have brought to your Lordships' notice as regards the possibility of destroying the landing-places of aircraft which does not alight upon water. There is a further point. The aircraft that is advisable for counter attack must be of the most rapid description, of a description that with difficulty takes off from land and finds a greater difficulty, if not an impossibility, in alighting otherwise than on the water. I therefore submit that expenditure on an air force of any description must be use

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less unless we set to work as early as possible to provide the type of aircraft for defence by counter attack which can alight upon water.
That is the main point which I beg leave to urge upon His Majesty's Government as a paramount necessity for defence. There is no difficulty in locating and bombing land aerodromes by night or in rainy and bad weather. As far as Malta is concerned, cross-bearings are easy and the location is very well known. On the other hand, the aircraft which is to land on the sea knows full well that its landing-places will always continue level unless disturbed by wind and weather, and it is against wind and weather that permanent protection can be easily achieved. When the strategy of non-defence and abandonment was so much talked of in July, and was made believable by facts more weighty than words, it should have been remembered that if Malta were abandoned, in view of the congestion of the population, at least 50 per cent. would have to die of hunger and the value of everything in Malta would be affected to the extent. of at least 80 per cent. The duty of His Majesty's Government to consider those contingencies and the promises made to the Maltese appear to have been the subject of a very salutary reconsideration since last July.
Moreover, for six months in Malta the representation of the King has been entrusted to the hands of a member of the Colonial Service. It has often been denied that anyone but a Military Governor could govern Malta efficiently—an assertion which has been contradicted by so high an authority as Lord Curzon, when Viceroy of India. Certainly, if there is any place in the world which can give us a parallel example, it is India, where military considerations are of the greatest weight, and where the selection of a Viceroy is not confined to a small class of senior military officers, selected by the Army Council for reasons of seniority and promotion, and not for reasons of the benefit of India in the civil line. And during the tenure of office in Malta of a member of the Colonial Service, as representative of the King, we have witnessed a marvellous development and change in considerations of strategy for Malta.
A Civil Governor can co-ordinate the activities of the Army, Navy and Air Force without undue partiality and free
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from a lifelong training in one compartment of ideas as regards defence. If Malta is to be defended permanently—and the serious trouble of defending Malta is not likely to arise for three or four years, in the opinion of the best experts upon that question—then Malta, properly defended by the Air Force, and having to rely principally on the Air Force, with the small military force necessary to prevent landing, in the absence of the Fleet, can furnish no argument for saying that a Civil Governor should not deal with the defence of Malta, the coordination of the needs of the three arms, side by side with and adjusted to the position of a civil population and their rights under the contracts entered into in their behalf. It is a fundamental feature of defence that the relations between the defence forces and the civil population should be of the best—that there should be co-operation and co-operation based on education, sentiment, patriotism and, above all, ties of blood.
To India this Imperial Parliament, last Session, granted self-government by legislative enactment which is so complicated that it has already had to be amended and made the subject of legislation by compartments, which at best will probably be Utopian. That effort, a very praiseworthy effort, is traceable to the necessity of dealing with the inferiority complex and the superiority complex. That problem is certainly much more difficult in India than it is in Malta, where representative institutions have been known for nine hundred, years, and where they were granted and upheld by the Norman kings of Sicily, of the type practised in the Channel Islands—a measure of representative government which has been promised and guaranteed by the successive rulers in Malta who succeeded the Norman kings. The Grand Master of the Order of St. John had to swear that he would preserve the rights and institutions of the Maltese. Similar promises were made in the name of our King-Emperor's predecessors, when Malta was annexed to the British Empire.
I ask your Lordships to have patience to consider what the racial problem means in Malta. It is complicated by the rapid increase of the population, which is more congested now than anywhere else in Europe. There are roughly a quarter of a million souls and additions of 3,000 every year. The bulk of that population

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is of Phœnician extraction. They talk the language of Hannibal, and have no desire to be assimilated by the descendants of those who destroyed Carthage. I might ask your Lordships to remember that the peasantry in Malta grow their own bread and wine, and cotton for clothing, and pay very little in indirect taxation for imported luxuries. There is no direct taxation in Malta except Succession Duties, no Income Tax or rates. There are 30,000 Britishers who are not Maltese. The facilities of travel to-day attract the wives and families of those who are serving the Crown. Travel is cheap, the climate is attractive, and life is more pleasant in Malta for a larger portion of the year than anywhere else that I know. It is that section of the community, together with the Anglo-Maltese, that pays the largest share of taxation.
The Anglo-Maltese, who in the near past have been treated politically as nonexistent, are increasing in number, not only because of the facility of travel and residence but because the relaxation of the rigour of the canon law as to mixed marriages has become increasingly operative. The standard of remuneration and allowances in the Services, particularly in the ratings of the Navy, is so high that in these days of modern culture and education in the Services there is a. growing departure from that condition of society which used to be described by saying that a sailor had a wife in every port. Anglo-Maltese families, the result of mixed marriages, are growing in number, and any attempt to hold Malta indefinitely must be based upon a recognition of their position and claim to consideration, because blood is thicker than water, and the bribery and corruption which make administration in Malta difficult are less operative where there is British culture combined with descent.
The other class of the population of Malta to which I ask your Lordships to give attention is the Siculo-Maltese contingent. They number perhaps some 3,000 to-day. They are fast dwindling in importance and influence in comparison with the other sections of the community. But that class still has a paramount hold on the administration, a paramount hold in the Church and in are Courts, and they are able under present conditions to edge in one imported administrator after another. During the reign of the Knights of St.
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John the official language was Latin because the Knights were a cosmopolitan Order. When the Knights were eliminated, those who succeeded them had to find professional services in the nearest market, and that was Sicily. Very naturally those Sicilians and some of them who inter-married, who in culture and education formed a class, became the masters of administration and arranged their monopoly by introducing trilingual education, trilingual examinations, and the pushing into office of those who knew the three languages. Naturally the rights of the Phœnician Maltese, the aboriginal inhabitants of the soil, were nowhere. Much less were the British or the Anglo-Maltese. But when a Constitution was granted in 1921, with a. larger measure of representative government than the Constitution of 1887 gave, the sons of the soil, the Anglo-Maltese and the British came to have equality of opportunity.
Now that that Constitution is suspended those in the Civil Service who have gathered around the Governor claim to be exempt from criticism, to enjoy stagnation—otium cum dignitate; to be supported in the commission of abuses and favouritism, the putting into office of their sisters, cousins and aunts, or their husbands, the making of examinations less important. All those abuses, against which there was an outcry in 1887 accompanied by a demand for representative government, which had been promised to the Maltese, are growing again to-day to an extent which is not creditable to British administration. Last July I asked for the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the method in which Malta is being governed and the difficulties of obtaining redress of grievances and abuses under the present system. That request was denied, and I do not repeat it to-day. What I ask for to-day is very little. Two years ago two distinguished and experienced officers, trained in the Colonial Department, came to Malta and remained there for some weeks to advise, inquire and report. I ask here that that procedure be repeated and that some practical system be set up, so that we may have a feeling that grievances can be redressed, that it is of some use working for progress in Malta.
Your Lordships' House is the only place where anyone born in Malta, claiming a right to vote and to speak in the

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language of his birth, can enjoy freedom of speech. The most drastic Press laws have been enacted that are a veritable disgrace and reproach to those administering institutions under English liberty. Moreover, when the Constitution was suspended, at the annual meeting of the parish priests, the Governor addressed them saying that constitutional government had been set aside for reasons of non-co-operation. It was suggested that nobody in Malta was suitable to stand for election and that henceforth the Governor would be responsible for every single decision. That might be possible sometimes in ideal but unachievable circumstances, but when Malta is an armed camp, on the frontier as it were, when a system of strategy and defence has to be devised and put into execution that will keep Malta British if troubles arise again three or four years hence, that is more than one man's job. Dealing with a civil population in these circumstances is more than one man's job even if he is in the best of health, at the best age of life, and with every possible gift and achievement the thing cannot be done. Therefore the Colonial Office is forced to declare that it will support the Governor right or wrong, and when the Governor is supported right or wrong those immediately below him want to be supported right or wrong, and have to be support ed right or wrong. So the system goes on all the way down.
Not only was the Constitution set aside on the supposition or allegation that nobody was suitable to seek the franchise and the confirmation of the electors, but the electors themselves were deprived of the right given to them by the Constitution—a Constitution declared by Lord Milner who enacted it or advised it to be more democratic than that of New South Wales; a Constitution confirmed by this Imperial Parliament and by your Lordships' House in order to increase the status of that Constitution and give recognition to the loyalty of the Maltese. That loyalty has been proved beyond measure by the Jubilee festivities a few months ago. There is no doubt as to the loyalty of the Phœmician Maltese, of the Anglo-Maltese, and of the Britishers in Malta. They as electors could have been, and should have been, trusted to turn out a Ministry dismissed for alleged disloyalty on the allegation that it had wrecked the finances to an extent that
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justified Imperial intervention. The assertion of that wreckage was so far from truth that it has been condemned in the Maltese Courts of Law in language unrepeatable in this House but proved in the presence of the Maltese Law Officers of the Crown, and neither the Judges nor the Law Officers objected to the veracity of that condemnation.
There was no deficit in Malta, although two Secretaries of State, one after another, have been induced somehow or other to represent that there was a deficit and that this deficit was so terrible as to justify Imperial intervention. We had no debt in Malta, and we had an ample margin for fresh taxation. That shows how false assertions and false reports have to be supported by the Colonial Office. The Colonial Office is not able to reprimand those responsible for misleading them and for causing Secretaries of State to cut that deplorable figure in the Parliament of England.
Under present conditions I am not one to say that responsible government should be immediately re-established in Malta. That proposition is now under appeal on points of law to the Judicial Committee of His Majesty's Privy Council. Therefore I must refrain from going into technical points of law, but on the main principle, and as regards the sacred, promised rights of the Maltese, I do, and I must, go so far as to say that the suspension of representative government as contrasted with responsible government is entirely unjustifiable and a slur on the honour of England. There is no escape from the argument that these pledges have been given. I sympathise with the noble Earl who represents the Colonial Office in your Lordships' House in the difficulty he has of finding any argument whatsoever in reply to, this contention.
I marvelled at the ingenuity with which, last July, instead of an argument, there was an attempt to find a distinction between a treaty and a solemn compact. These solemn compacts made between the Crown and the Maltese were asserted and confirmed in the Treaties of Amiens and Paris and by the Congress of Vienna, and that association is sufficient to describe them as treaty rights; but let the word "treaty" be left out and let them be called solemn compacts. To deny these solemn compacts, which have been asserted and reasserted and admitted by one statesman after another

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for 135 years in both this House and in another place, is to me an appalling attempt to escape from duty, an attempt so appalling and so far-reaching in its consequences that I hope it will not be repeated without a Cabinet Minute authorising that change from a policy that has been established for 135 years.
In conclusion, I wish to appeal for the sympathy of your Lordships' House in the period of transition which must elapse after the decision of His Majesty's Privy Council on points of law —not on points of administration, such as the declaration or non-declaration of a state of emergency—and before legislation can be framed and passed to establish the form or, representative government similar, perhaps, to that of the Channel Islands but within the scope of the privileges conferred by the Norman King of Malta and repeated by dynasty after dynasty. There should be some abatement of the friction and discontent, growing every day in Malta, caused by the despotic and arbitrary use of power by officials who think they can never be brought to book and never be reprimanded. Of course when they know that the Colonial Office will support mistakes, right or wrong, they act accordingly—that is the atmosphere of the Civil Service at present in Malta. It is quite possible to have brought from Palestine to Malta one who taught Arabic, not trained at all in the Colonial Office, who would bring to the Government of Malta methods suitable for dealing with the Arabs in Palestine.
At the bottom of all these difficulties is the inferiority complex. Many in this country think that the Maltese are not a white European race as were the Phœnicians from whom the bulk of the population is descended. Whatever may be the willingness of some Maltese to put up with treatment as camp followers and accept favours and other considerations from those who have power over them as superiors, that mentality is not going to be adopted by the Anglo-Maltese or the English in Malta. None of the Maltese Britishers has the right to the franchise in Malta, nor have the Phoenician Maltese, who are the original lords of the soil. These elements will not put up with the exercise of the inferiority complex and be respectful and cognisant of the principles of British liberty, the teachings of Magna
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Charta, and the teachings of our constitutional lawyers. Some method must be found of abating these causes of friction and discontent to-day. May I say that our troubles in Ireland arose from the same causes? What was called the Saxon garrison in Ireland, namely, the descendants of Normans of non-Irish and of mixed marriages, were known there as ipsis Hiberniis Hiberniores, that is to say, more truly patriotic in regard to Ireland than those Irish who were indigenous. That is the analogy in Malta with reference to those Anglo-Maltese who want to spread a culture that is British and thereby to assure Imperial co-operation and the permanent defence of Malta by ties of mentality and of blood which are more reliable than ties produced by threats and favours.
But the Siculo-Maltese culture still dominates notwithstanding reforms in the recent Letters Patent and the great benefit to the Empire and to Malta conferred by the present Secretary of State for Air when he was Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister with language reforms long overdue and still defied. Notwithstanding the gratitude due to him for that enactment those under anti-British influence are able to defy the reforms; they control examinations, they arrange- the details of legislation, and in other ways they still are able to defeat the very object of the noble Viscount's great achievement. But these acts in defiance of reform, as in the case of other mistakes and abuses, are almost invariably supported by the Colonial Office—right or wrong—to the extent that, for example, to-day Latin is not being taught in Malta in the secondary schools either in the Maltese or English language but through another language that is foreign. The superseded Letters Patent are upheld even in the Government schools where education is free. I will not detain your Lordships and I hope allowance will be made for the earnestness with which I have addressed your Lordships' House. It is the fact that freedom of speech under the privilege of Parliament is now entirely impossible in Malta, because of the suppression of our Parliamentary institutions. The loyal and the disloyal are equally degraded without any intelligible reason. It is here that in the name of English liberty we beg leave to demand redress. I beg to move for Papers.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH): My Lords, the noble Lord has worded his Motion in such a way as to enable him with complete justification to range over a very wide field, but it has left me at this disadvantage, that I was not aware of the actual points which he intended to raise. I hope, therefore, that, your Lordships will excuse me if I do not reply to the noble Lord at any very great length. The first matter that the noble Lord referred to was the question of the defence of Malta, and I am sure your Lordships will have listened with very great interest to the observations which he had to make upon this particular subject. I fully admit that the problems that he touched upon are of very great importance. I hope, however, that he will forgive me if I do not follow him in detail through the various topics which he has introduced into this discussion, for a number of reasons.
They involve difficult technical questions of defence which it would be hardly appropriate for me to enter into on this occasion even if it were in the public interest that I should do so; out I desire to say that the question of the defence of Malta, both at present and for the future, is one which is engaging the close attention of His Majesty's Government. In the careful review which is being made of this matter full weight is being attached to the necessity for safeguarding the interests of the Maltese population as well as the interests of Imperial defence, in which the Island plays a very prominent part. The noble Lord referred more particularly to the air defence aspect of the position in Malta, and he raised a subject which has been discussed in this House, in one form at any rate, as recently as last week—that was the relative merits of defence by means of seaplanes and landplanes. My noble friend the Secretary of State for Air dealt with that point, I thought very completely, during the course of the discussion last week, and there is, therefore, very little that I can add to-day with regard to that particular matter; but I trust that the noble Lord will see that there are two sides to this problem.
I can only say that as far as the Government are concerned they do not share the view that a seaplane base is less open to attack than would be aircraft on
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shore. To begin with, the seaplanes, while riding at anchor, might themselves be bombed, but, apart from that, the slipways, hangars and workshops on the shore, on which they depend for their maintenance, are just as open to attack as any other building. The noble Lord then proceeded to the subject of underground hangars. As far as that is concerned I merely want to say that this is an aspect of the problem which has not escaped the consideration of the responsible authorities. They have considered the possibility of providing these hangars. The conclusion reached is that very great expense would be involved and that the aircraft in time of war could only be fully protected by that method at the price of their losing most of their readiness for taking the air against the invader. That is the considered opinion; of the responsible authorities on this particular subject. Further than that I do not feel it right that I should discuss detailed matters in connection with the defence of Malta at this particular juncture and, if I may, I will now pass on to deal with one or two other matters which the noble Lord raised.
The noble Lord animadverted to one of his favourite topics, and that was the relative advantages of having a Military Governor as opposed to a Civilian Governor in Malta, and he attempted to strengthen his argument on that point by drawing an analogy between Malta and India in this particular connection. I think you cannot possibly maintain an analogy between India and Malta from this particular point of view. There really is no similarity between the two places whatsoever. But the noble Lord attempted to argue that since the Military Governor, Sir David Campbell, had been away and his place temporarily taken by a Civilian Governor, the policy in Malta had entirely changed. There is no truth whatsoever as far as that is concerned. There has been no change of policy in any respect there, and the Colonial Office are prepared to shoulder full responsibility for everything which has taken place. Policy a nay have changed, but merely because circumstances have changed; it is an evolution of policy and in no way a, change of policy. I should have thought that recent events in the Mediterranean would

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have shown the advantage rather than the disadvantage of having a Military Governor controlling the situation in Malta.
The noble Lord went on to discuss the history of Malta at considerable length. I am sure that, with his great knowledge, what he told us will have proved of very great interest to noble Lords present, but I venture to say that there was not anything in what he said that called for any answer on my part. He concluded by making a severe attack on the Colonial Office generally, and I think the gravamen of his charge was that the Colonial Office were compelled in some mysterious way—I could not quite make out how—to accept the decision of the Governor of Malta, whether he was right or wrong. So far as I know there is absolutely no truth in that statement. Every question is decided upon its merits. I do not know what he has in his mind when he makes such accusations as he has made to-day. He further complained that the people of Malta had no opportunity to make representations to the Government except through the House of Lords and I suppose in another place as well. That really is not true. The people in Malta are in exactly the same position as the people in any other Colony. They have the same rights as every British subject in the Colonies to make representations to the Secretary of State on any matter through the usual channels, through the Governor. I really do not quite understand what he means when he says that British subjects in Malta have no opportunity of making representations except through him in your Lordships' House.
He then made reference to the constitutional position. I agree with him that the legal aspect of that particular question is at present sub judice and that therefore it would be improper to attempt to discuss it. But he referred to other aspects of the constitutional position all of which he raised in a previous debate and which were then discussed at very considerable length. I am afraid I cannot follow him into the details of those matters. I gave my answer on the last occasion upon which they were debated in your Lordships' House as recently as July, and I really have nothing to add to what I said at that time. Those I think were the principal problems raised, and in view of the fact that we have several times in this House
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discussed the question of Malta in some detail, I am afraid there is nothing further I am able to say this afternoon.
LORD STRICKLAND: My Lords, I must express my astonishment at the statement of the noble Earl representing the Colonial Department that anyone in Malta is in the same position as any other inhabitants of the four dozen or so of Colonies under the Colonial Office. He is right in reference to the Virgin Islands or St. Helena, where a, British subject is in exactly the same position as in Malta, but in most other Colonies there are degrees of representation. Even where the majority is not white, namely, in the Federation of the Leeward Islands, of which I had the honour to be Governor, there is a Federal Council and an elected Assembly in four Presidencies except the Virgin Islands. Elected members can ask questions and speak under privilege of Parliament. Heads of Departments have to answer in public for advice given to the Governor and for blunders, and redress can be demanded in debate. But the loyalists of Malta are in the position of those in St. Helena or Ascension Island. In Malta even the Executive Council is suspended, and yet the noble Earl says that the people of Malta are in the same position to demand redress as anybody else, on large matters and small matters that may be killed by delay.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I said the individual subject.
LORD STRICKLAND: The individual subject is not in the same position because in other Colonies he has the right to vote for an elected representative and he can have questions asked forthwith in public and get redress through him from a Governor who has heard both sides. As to the noble Earl's objection to Malta being compared to India because India is large and Malta is small, I would say that human nature is substantially the same everywhere and has been but slowly changed through the ages. Because the population of Malta is a quarter of a million and Ireland, say, four or five millions, as compared with India's population of four hundred million or five hundred million, it does not follow that the same argument does not apply when racial or psychological questions are considered.

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Ireland has suffered under Dublin Castle rule and is now separated as to Southern Ireland by the faults of the bureaucracy of which we complain. There is an analogy as to mentality and reciprocal promises. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD DE CLIFFORD.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY moved to resolve, That it is not obligatory for Peers to wear hats when attending the trial of Lord de Clifford on 12th December. The noble Marquess said: My Lords a little more than a month ago the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack issued a circular with reference to the approaching trial of a member of this House. In that circular, as your Lordships will remember, there was a paragraph stating that those Peers who attended the trial of course would have to wear their robes and cocked hats. Upon receiving that circular I addressed a letter to the noble and learned Viscount calling his attention to the fact that I did not think that the wearing of hats was obligatory upon Peers attending a trial, and stating that as I had been present at the last trial of a Peer in Parliament—that of Earl Russell in 1901—I was able to state from memory that we did not wear what are called cocked hats. The correspondence ended with a letter from the noble and learned Viscount in which he told me that there was a difference of opinion upon the point and that it was a matter for the House to decide for itself.
I therefore put down the Motion which stands in my name and I will give your Lordships the reasons that lead me to recommend that the wearing of hats is not compulsory on an occasion of this sort. To begin with I think the description "cocked hats" is a misnomer. I have looked through the most recent edition of the procedure of the House of Lords—the twelfth edition brought up to this year—and in that there is a very voluminous account of the proceedings at the Russell trial. There is, however, no nutrition in it of cocked hats, nor is there any mention of cocked hats in the very long report of the trial which was published in The Times on 19th July, 1901. I think the meaning to be
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attached to the statement that Peers uncover at the reading of the Commission and any Proclamation of the Sovereign is that those who are covered, those who have hats on their heads, take them off in the same way as when the King's Speech is read from the Woolsack by Commission those who happen to be wearing hats take them off. There is not a word in any report of the trial of Peers about the compulsory wearing of hats.
I have said that the description "cocked hats" seems to be a misnomer. These hats are three-cornered, and I think in the old phrase they were called shovel hats. But, whatever they are called, I remember vividly that on the occasion of the Russell trial—I was sitting in the Barons' Bench at the very top of the Royal Gallery and had a view of all the Peers present—these three-cornered hats were worn by the Law Lords and only by one or two others. It seems to me an omission that the Select Committee which sat to consider the proceedings to be followed at the trial of Lord de Clifford did not include any Peer who was present at the Russell trial. There are still in this House about a dozen Peers, I believe, who were present at that trial on 18th July, 1901. Among them was the late Chairman of Committees, the Earl of Donoughmore, and also I think the Earl of Shaftesbury, the Lord Steward, the Earl of Malmesbury, Lord Hamilton of Dalzell, and some five or six others. I should like any of them who were present to say what their remembrance is of the procedure on that occasion.
We assembled in this House in our robes, and Lord Halsbury, the Lord Chancellor, was appointed Lord High Steward to act on the occasion. After we had left this House we marched to the Royal Gallery. There had been a temporary Throne erected at the far end, and a chair was set for the Lord High Steward and the proceedings opened. I can say that the few Peers who did have their three-cornered hats on of course removed them when the Royal Commission was read, but certainly the bulk of the Peers present were not covered. It is said that this will be the last trial of a Peer. I do not believe it, but I am certain that if we go by former times we should follow our precedents strictly and it should not be made obligatory upon Peers, if they wish to attend the trial of

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one of their own body, to wear three-cornered hats. They should be allowed to wear them if they like, and if they do not wish to, they should not have to wear them. I therefore beg to move the Motion which stands in my name.
Moved to resolve, That it is not obligatory for Peers to wear hats when attending the trial of Lord de Clifford on 12th December.—(The Marquess of Huntly.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I had hoped that some of your Lordships might be able to respond to the invitation of the noble Marquess, but unfortunately none of you who were present seem to have availed yourselves of his invitation, and therefore it is left to me to answer the Motion. I am a little sorry in some ways that this is the subject of debate in this House. I am sorry, not because it is not perfectly legitimate for any one to raise any point in your Lordships' House, but because disrespectful people may perhaps think that it is not very dignified, when these grave questions are being debated outside, for us to spend much time on the consideration of what clothes we shall wear on the day after to-morrow. The noble Marquess based his argument, as he told your Lordships, on his recollection that on the occasion of the Russell trial, which was the last occasion when a noble Lord was indicted for felony, members of your Lordships' House did not have hats. I did not understand him to say that they wore any other hat than their ceremonial cocked hat—they did not appear in bowlers or top-hats—but that they had no hats at all.
As the noble Marquess has told you, he wrote to me some two months ago and said that he was right in that recollection. Naturally I had no recollection or knowledge myself, but I invited the learned Clerk of the Parliaments, who had himself been present at the trial, to give me his recollection and also to reinforce it as far as he could by others who were there. Human memory is naturally often at fault, and I can only tell your Lordships that he told me that he had a very clear recollection that hats were worn or carried, and that such inquiry as he was able to make corroborated that memory. Among others whom he was able to ask were some of those who were professionally
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engaged in the trial, and their recollections accorded with his own.
Further than that, he looked up the record, the formal Minutes, and, as the noble Marquess has said, there appear in the Minutes several references to the covering or uncovering of the Peers on that occasion. For instance—I only take this because it is perhaps the clearest reference—when the Commission was read at the beginning of the trial, the record in the Minutes provided that
"The Peers uncover themselves, and they and all others stand up while the Commission is read."
The noble Marquess had obviously seen that passage; he said it only meant that those who were covered uncovered themselves and the rest stood up as they were. The matter does not, however, rest merely on that negative testimony, because I have, since the noble Marquess first wrote to me, been at pains to have search made in the contemporary Press, and I find these three quotations—I believe there are others—as to what actually happened at the trial.
On July 18, the Evening News said, describing who were there:
"Peers wearing mantles of scarlet and ermine and gold and with quaint black cocked hats on their heads…"
The reporter at any rate thought he saw the Peers covered with hats. Then on the following morning, July 19, the Morning Post, reporting the Russell trial, said:
"Peers wore their robes of scarlet barred with ermine and carried cocked hats in their hands."
The Globe, reporting the trial, said:
"Each Peer"—
I call your Lordships' attention to that word—
"wore or carried a black cocked hat."
So that those who were reporting the trial at the time recorded that they had seen the Peers each of them wearing or carrying a black cocked hat. Even the best of memories after thirty-four years is perhaps not quite so reliable as the contemporary record of what happened.
In addition to that, the learned Clerk of the Parliaments has procured a copy of the illustration of the trial, which was published in the Illustrated London News at the time in 1901. That is on the Table, if any of your Lordships should

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care to look at it. If you look at the drawing—it is of course on a small scale—you will observe that the Peers are depicted sitting in the Royal Gallery with their black cocked hats on their knees. They were not wearing them, apparently, when they sat down. I think what happened was that, as the procession was formed and passed from this House into the Royal Gallery, the members of the procession walked covered, wearing their cocked hats, and that when they arrived in the Royal Gallery and took their seats they took their hats off and put them under their seats or on their knees. That being the record of what happened at the time; that being also the recollection of such persons as I have been able to inquire from; that being also the record of the Minutes, I venture to think that we may take it as fairly certain, in spite of my noble friend's recollection, that in fact cocked hats were either worn or carried, although no doubt he may have carried his and not actually worn it.
It is open to your Lordships, of course, to make any modification in dress which you think desirable. I do not think it would effect any substantial economy in the present case, because all those of your Lordships who are proposing to sit in judgment on Thursday and take part in the trial will have sent in their names and presumably by this time have equipped themselves for the trial by the acquisition of their robes and their hats, which, after all, form part of the ceremonial dress. It is open, of course, to this House to determine that your Lordships should sit without hats, or, for that matter, without robes. I think that there is a good deal to be said for taking the view that this manner of trial has outlived its usefulness, and that your Lordships' House might think it desirable, perhaps on an early occasion, to express an opinion to that effect. But this is not the moment to do that, and I am prepared to suggest to your Lordships, and to my noble friend, that perhaps so long as the old method of trial is maintained, it would be more in consonance with the dignity of this House and with its traditions if we maintained the method of trial which prevailed apparently in 1901, and certainly in every other trial of this kind of which we can find any record, and that so long as that method of trying Peers indicted for felony continues the old form should be main
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tained and the old tradition should be followed. It is for these reasons that I venture to suggest to your Lordships, and to my noble friend, that it would not be advisable to pass the present Motion.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, I rise to address you for one reason only. I also happened to be present at the trial of Lord Russell. I was not at that time a member of your Lordships' House, but nay father was Lord High Steward, and he asked me to act as his secretary. Therefore I was present at the trial. I was not present at the part of the trial which took place in this House, but only at that part of it which took place in the Royal Gallery, and my recollection is in accordance with that of the noble Marquess. It was an occasion which impressed me very much, as your Lordships can understand; but having told your Lordships that, I go on to say that I entirely agree with my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack that memory is not a thing that you can say is going to tell you exactly what happened. After the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has called our attention to these contemporary accounts of the trial, I can only say that I think my memory must be at fault.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY: May I ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack what is the use of carrying a hat in your hand? If by only carrying a cocked hat in your hand you conform to usage, surely the time has arrived when it would be wise to say that you can dispense with it.
On Question, Motion disagreed to.

THE ABBOTSBURY SWANNERY.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD THE EARL OF CRAWFORD rose to draw attention to the danger to the Abbotsbury Swannery arising from the projected firing range for the Royal Air Force; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg leave to refer to the danger to a famous Swannery on the coast of Dorsetshire, called the Abbotsbury Swannery. Not only is it the only thing of its kind in this country, but it is the only thing of its kind in Europe. Its value is in many ways incalculable, and once lost it would be of course irreplaceable. Many of

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those who are best acquainted with this place believe that the danger to the birds from machine gun practice is very real; not at the nesting place of the birds, but at their winter feeding ground. They nest at the western end of the bays, or "fleets" as they are called, and during the autumn move eastwards to the winter feeding grounds. Only a few days ago this majestic procession of birds moved eastwards to the area where the water weed zostera nana grows. There is not much of this weed, and the result is that the swannery is not much more than 500 in number. The flock goes there because it is the only place where the birds can get this sustenance.
At one time the flock, or as the Charter of 1591 calls it, "the game of swans," amounted to 1,400 in number. However, the food supplies are adequate for the smaller number; and I need not remind your Lordships that artificial feeding is quite inadequate for these birds. It is precisely within the danger area that the new machine gun range will be established. The birds, which are very tame when nesting in the spring, become wild and easily disturbed during the autumn and winter months, and once the birds are dispersed it is very doubtful whether they will ever collect together again. I should like, incidentally, to remind your Lordships that this swannery, which is already scheduled under the Wild Birds Protection Act, also contains a large number of very interesting and scarce wild bird colonies.
I would like to say a word about the nature of land involved. Chesil Bank or Beach is a long, narrow neck of land, eight or nine miles long, lying between two sheets of water—between the lagoon on the land-side and the open sea to the south. It is a bit of the Dorsetshire coast, 100 yards in width, and in places from twenty to thirty feet high. In itself this bank is of the utmost interest to botanists and geologists. Wild England is represented in a unique fashion in this little bit of seaward land. And machine gun targets are to be placed upon it!Apart from the natural history point of view, there has been much criticism of this siting of targets on purely technical grounds. The target in the first place is fixed, which is
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not a condition normal in time of war. Not only is the target fixed, but the distance of the target from the aerodrome is equally fixed, and equally emphatic, because the target on this narrow neck of land must be within a few yards, you might almost say within a few feet, of the water line, which of course marks the area of the target as nothing else in the world could do; so that the distance from the aerodrome being known to a yard, and the distance from the water edge being equally known, it must surely provide a very mediocre type of practice ground.
Under service conditions picking lip the enemy objective is quite as important as the actual firing, and certainly requires as much practice. Now a place is chosen where that condition is notable for its absence, and it seems a very poor and unvarying type of exercise and education. The situation of the target ought not to be as unchangeable as it must be upon the bit of land chosen. A few weeks ago, in the summer, the Air Ministry was good enough to allow some of my friends to see a demonstration of firing at Long Sutton. There also the firing was directed against fixed targets —targets visible a mile away. I noticed that the aeroplanes flew very low and very slowly, and yet the shooting was very erratic. I noticed in particular a smoke bomb which fell at least 200 yards away from the target. We are told by the Air Ministry that no bullets will fall into the sea on Chesil Bank, nothing but empty cartridges. Well, my fears in that respect were not dispelled by what I saw last summer at Long Sutton.
But I think really that apart from the nature of the target, Chesil Bank is badly chosen on technical grounds because of restrictive pledges which have been already given by the Air Ministry, such as those given to the Borough of Weymouth. I think I am right in saying that the noble Viscount (Lord Swinton) has given a. pledge that no flying of aeroplanes shall take place over the built-up area of Weymouth, and presumably over its suburb of Chickerell as well, nor must there be flying at night. I am not sure whether those are facts, but that is the general belief in that area. If so, the Air Ministry has deliberately precluded itself from approaching the target from due east; in other words, a very important type of practice, that is, flying towards

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the objective with the sun low down in your eyes at sunset, is going to be impossible. That, again, strengthens the view, which I know is held by professional people, that this area has been badly chosen from a technical point of view. There are many other objections, to which I do not propose to refer, economic objections—the fisher folk for instance—and very fine farm land has to be taken. But I am not going to refer to that; I am limiting myself to the other aspects of the problem.
It is no good saying that this site is inevitable. I should like to say that, again speaking with very good local advice, it appears that an alternative site is available not far distant, similar to this site, with the same climate, the same conditions of light and wind, with equal accessibility to Portsmouth, to Salisbury Plain and to London, and not more expensive. I think it would be a very good thing if all these practising grounds were not so much concentrated in Hampshire and Dorsetshire.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE, FOR AIR (VISCOUNT SWINTON): What is the situation of the alternative site?
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: It is to the west.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I thought so.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: It is close on to the west, but on the same assumption of lines of attack, would just spare the water where the zostera nana, the little under-water weed, thrives, the only place where it grows. I think there are so many training areas in Dorsetshire and Hampshire, for tanks, for rifle ranges, for seaplanes, for gunnery targets, for mining areas, for mine-sweeping, for submarines, that Abbotsbury might be spared. The local feeling on the subject is very strong. I see the noble Earl His Majesty's Lieutenant of the County, Lord Shaftesbury, who will be able to say how keenly exercised the local feeling is, and I shall not insist upon that, but I should like to say that what you might call the learned societies are very much concerned. The Trustees of the Natural History Museum are very much interested in the preservation of these birds and the lovers of nature all over England are united in this matter. We asked for an experiment to be made, a trial while the birds are on their winter feeding grounds. But
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even this was refused. The Air Ministry have been good enough to say that they will change the targets later on if the Swannery is injured. But surely it would be better, would it not, to make the test before the injury is done? I am confident that, once dispersed by firing, the birds will get frightened, will scatter, will get killed, and this unique Swannery will never be rehabilitated.
I speak on behalf of a great -group of lovers of nature, on behalf of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England. It is a federation of scores and hundreds of societies, including many public authorities, who are actuated by the motive of preserving rural England, as typified in its name. This Council knows perfectly well that the siting of aerodromes is a very complex affair. We admit that interference with all sorts of things is necessary when an aerodrome is set up—with shipping, with fishing, with industry, with agriculture, with residential areas and so on. And we most fully recognise the responsibility of the Air Ministry. To show our good faith, I should like to say that, though we are constantly approached by people who object to aerodromes being set up in their midst, we have never yet asked the Air Ministry to review or revise its decision on these matters—never once. This time we are doing it because we are confident that our case is really important, and because we believe that another site can be found.
Really, this Abbotsbury Swannery is a very precious asset, a real national asset. The very idea of its loss and dispersion fills my mind with horror and consternation. Do I exaggerate, if I rank it as one of the wonders of Britain, if I compare it with Kingley Vale, with Wicken Fen, with Rannoch Moor? For Abbots-bury Swannery in nature is what in human achievement are Maiden Castle, the Roman Wall and Stonehenge—great, glorious things which are irretrievable and irreplaceable. There is something solemn and grandiose about these great silent birds which have lived and thriven for 700 years in the lagoons called the Dorsetshire fleets. Now the interest in the preservation of nature is keen and it is growing constantly. We in Britain are now the best naturalists in the world We have got bird sanctuaries which are being extended all over the Empire. We have been very insensitive to these things

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in the past. We have allowed our country and our flora and our fauna to suffer very much from our heedlessness. We have lost the great bustard of the plains. We have lost the pine martin. In the last few years we have lost no fewer than thirty-five different kinds of wild flowers that have disappeared from our land—gone for ever. But we are making great efforts to try to arrest these losses. The eagle and the wild cat, the bittern and some of the greater lepidoptera, are no longer on the verge of extinction, but very much is still threatened. We cannot afford to lose any of the really wonderful things which still survive. That is why I ask your Lordships to be sympathetic about this Swannery at Abbotsbury. Its collective value, its value as a Swannery, is, as I say, unique and inestimable. I very earnestly press the Secretary of State to reconsider his decision. I beg to move for Papers.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: My Lords, bear with me for a few moments while I add a remark or two to the arguments which have been so well put forward by the noble Earl who has introduced this subject. Born and bred in the County of Dorset I, with all others intimately connected with and intimately interested in that County, look askance at the proposals of the Air Ministry and at the plans which they have in view. I fully appreciate, and I am sure every noble Lord in this House will appreciate, the dire necessity that has forced the Air Minister to find some wild and remote spot free from harm and danger to the neighbouring district where the ever increasing numbers of the Air personnel can be trained, but here he seems to have lit upon a spot which, apart from its natural beauty, should, I think, claim to be immune from (shall I say?) his somewhat barbaric treatment. Take Chesil Beach for example.
As the noble Earl has told us, this is of real archæological interest. The age of it is, I think, not really known. It was formed certainly in prehistoric times, probably not much earlier than 2000 B.C. It is therefore of extraordinary geological interest, and were it not for this breakwater the Island of Portland would now be right out in the sea with the waves washing the chalk cliffs east and west of the point called Ridgway Hill, which is between Weymouth and Dorchester.
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Chesil Bank, as the noble Earl has said, is seven or eight miles long, and it has this curious property, that it grades its shingle continuously from west to east, from Bridport Bay to Portland. It has always been a surprise to me that this has not been long ago scheduled as an ancient monument. If it were so, I suppose we might have been treated to the spectacle of the Air Minister and the First Commissioner of Works scrapping over the carcase.
Not only has this Chesil Bank remarkable value, but there is also, as the noble Earl has told your Lordships, a danger inherent in these proposals to this Abbotsbury Swannery. This is, as must be realised by now, not only of local but also of national and European value and interest. It is absolutely unique and of paramount interest to all lovers of nature and of bird life. Cogent and weighty arguments were put forward by great authorities when the Air Minister was kind enough to receive a deputation, and weighty arguments have been put forward by the noble Earl this evening. Therefore I do not want to dwell upon this point. Suffice it for me to say that we on the County Council of Dorset have twice passed unanimous resolutions strongly deprecating these proposals, whilst our Archæological Society is really seriously perturbed and alarmed at the harm that may ensue. I really think that the swans might be allowed to rest in peace and pursue their peaceful practices unmolested and undisturbed by the marauding hand of man. I make this final appeal to the Air Minister that he should further seriously consider the objections we have raised, and that he should find some other spot altogether away from the County of Dorset, but if he cannot do that, let him take into consideration moving further west where the same objection cannot be raised.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I am very glad that the noble Earl has raised this question in your Lordships' House, because it gives me the opportunity of making a very full statement, and I am sure your Lordships would wish to have a full statement about the whole position of the proposed firing range. The matter was exhaustively considered by the Air Ministry before I went there and decisions had been taken, but in view of the representations

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which I received from the noble Earl and others, and the great interest rightly attaching to the Swannery, I felt it my duty to review the whole question myself.
I came to it entirely new and with a completely unprejudiced mind. No, that is hardly true. I came to it rather with a prejudiced mind because I came to it with the natural inclination to find some way out which was agreeable to everybody. In a great national undertaking like the expansion of the Air Force one has a very keen desire to carry everyone with one, to get the maximum of co-operation and the minimum of friction. I also came to it frankly with a prejudice that it must be possible to find some alternative site somewhere along the British coast. I want to give your Lordships the facts, as I have found them to be, from the national point of view, and I am sure your Lordships will give me credit for having made a very close personal investigation of all the considerations involved.
Under the expansion scheme in which the Home Air Force will be at least trebled, it is absolutely necessary for us to have nine or ten of these machine-gun ranges. These ranges have got to be in constant use in order to give the necessary training, and if you select a site for a range that you can only put to a limited use and use at certain seasons only, that means you must have a larger number of ranges, because ten is, I think, really the minimum number required for the central training of the Force. Every single squadron has to undertake this form of training every year. There are a number of factors every one of which has to be present in a range which is to afford a satisfactory training ground. First of all the range must be suitable for two types of training. My noble friend said that this would be a bad place because a stationary target was not in itself enough. That is perfectly true, although firing at a stationary target is a very necessary part of training. We have all of us who were trained to use rifles had to fire at a stationary object upon a rifle range.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Stationary in the sense that it, cannot be moved, because the ground on which it is situated is so narrow.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I do not think the opinion of the experts—and I have to rely upon expert advice for this—is that this is a very material consideration. But you have to have two types of firing. There is not merely the firing at a target on the ground, there has to be firing at a moving target out at sea, and both of these kinds of practice must be done by every single one of these aeroplanes. You therefore have to have not only a target on the ground but you have to have what we call a "towed" target—a target which is towed along behind the aeroplane, and at which the other plane, in order to carry out its practice, fires. That, of course, involves the width of the danger zone. The result of that is that all the ranges that are selected must be upon the coast. That is the second condition. Then, because you have to have both types of firing made possible, you have to have a danger zone which will extend to three miles out to sea in order to ensure safety when you are firing against this moving target in the air.
It follows, as another condition, that you must find a site which interferes as little as possible with shipping or fishing and which does not inconvenience a populous area. There is a further consideration which, I am bound to say, had not occurred to me at first but which is very necessary, and that is that the meteorological conditions of the air should be suitable. You must be able, if you are to carry out your training, to carry it out day after day, and you cannot, therefore, select some site, which might otherwise appear suitable, if there is a constant prevalence of low cloud or of fog. Another consideration is that you have to have unobstructed approach to the target. These machines, as an essential part of their practice, must dive out of the air in order to descend upon their ground target. That is an essential part of their practice for the work required of them in war. That means that you cannot take a site with hills close behind you, a fact which in itself rules out a very large number of sites. It rules out, incidentally, a site further to the west to which the noble Earl referred. The Ministry has most carefully considered this particular site which was suggested to us, with a very genuine anxiety to adopt it if it were possible to do so, but I am advised that to adopt

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that site would definitely be either to render your fire largely impracticable or to involve a risk which, if diving is to be done, you would not be justified in asking your men to undertake. Lastly, you have to have a range which is reasonably near either to an existing aerodrome or a place where you can site an aerodrome, because you have to move these squadrons into their training camp one after another, and they must be able to get fairly quickly from the aerodrome to the target.
Every one of those conditions has to be present in any range which is taken. The whole coast of England and Wales and Scotland has been most carefully surveyed in order to find a suitable range, and we have not yet succeeded in getting the minimum number that we require. There are four already in existence out of the nine or ten required—Catfoss, Yorkshire, North Coates Fittes, Lincolnshire, Sutton Bridge, Cambridgeshire, and Leuchars, Fifeshire (which is well known to the noble Earl). Two more have been selected and approved—a place appropriately called Hell's Mouth, Carnarvonshire, and Luce Bay, Wigtownshire. There are, further, two provisional sites, of which Chesil Beach is one and the other is in Northumberland. We have even gone as far afield as Cromarty Firth, which is now under investigation, although it is expensive and inconvenient to have a site so far away from where the squadrons undergo their ordinary training and from their ordinary stations. The mere fact that we are investigating there, and probably shall have to go there if it is practicable, does show your Lordships how wide is our search to find suitable places and how far afield we are prepared to go.
Now, my Lords, these are facts which I simply could not get away from in coming to a decision on this matter. I felt, as I am sure any of your Lordships in my position would have felt, that, charged with the duty of seeing this expansion scheme go through in a short space of time, and the necessity of maintaining efficient training during that period, when one squadron would succeed another, and in the period coming after, nothing but the very strongest grounds could justify me in reversing the action already taken and taking a decision which I honestly felt, and could not help but honestly feel,
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would be definitely prejudicial to national defence. That is the national case for this site. Let me come to the objections. Objections were taken on three grounds, only one of which is urgently pressed in your Lordships' House to-day. There were certain objections originally raised by the Weymouth Council in respect of which, they tell me, they are completely satisfied.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Was I correct in saying what I did about that?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Yes. Assurances have been given, and given frequently, in the case of Weymouth, that there will not be flying by night over the town, but that does not include Chickerell. I am advised that the noble Earl is wrong in his assertion that those assurances will prejudice us in the use of the range. I am bound to give the noble Earl the considered view of my expert advisers, and I would ask your Lordships to accept that. As regards the fishing interests, the Ministry of Agriculture, who are always consulted with regard to any of these ranges, advise us that no site in the southern area was likely to cause so little interference with fishing. That is their considered view. Fortunately there is no shipping along this route, and your Lordships will appreciate how difficult it is, when you must have a three mile danger area out to sea, to find an area where you do not cause some interference with either coastal or other shipping. Special arrangements have been made in order to protect the interests of the seine fishermen, who fish from the ridge of Chesil Beach and who will have free access to the whole of the area of the beach except over 1,000 yards at the time of actual firing. I think the maximum that is possible has been done to meet their case.
The real issue, I quite agree, is the case of the swannery. I have already dealt with the question of the site considerably further west to which the noble Earl referred. We would have taken that with the greatest pleasure if it had been practicable, but because of the hills it is not a site which we could use as a range. It was originally proposed, as the noble Earl will remember, that the range should be sited rather further to the west; but we were asked not to do that because that would interfere with

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what I think is called the "summer range" of the swans. Therefore the present site was selected. That involves possible risk when the swans are on their winter feeding ground, to which they are attracted by a weed which grows in this particular place and which forms their winter feed. Any one who is not familiar with air experience would naturally think that any bird is likely to be terrified by an aeroplane flying over it, particularly if it is flying low, and by the firing of machine guns from aeroplanes. But I would ask your Lordships, in weighing the merits of this case, as it has been my duty to do, to take into account the accumulated experience which has been gained by the Air Ministry on other ranges of the same kind. There is Leuchars, where firing has been going on for years. There a ternery runs right up to the targets, and a bird sanctuary lies between the aerodrome and the targets, I think only a mile and a half away.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Less, about a mile.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: This bird sanctuary is only a mile away from the targets, and the birds continue to live there between where the aeroplanes take off and the actual target at which they shoot. It is interesting to note that long before there was any controversy over this particular site there were photographs in Country Life of the birds on the ranges, showing how little could be the effect of guns and aeroplanes upon them. Then there is Leysdown, in Sheppey, where there is an armament school and where firing experiments take place and have taken place for twenty years. Yet, summer and winter, every kind of wild fowl congregates and stays there. Then there is Lydd, near Dungeness, where we have another of these targets, and I would like to quote to your Lordships a letter written recently to The Times by Mr. Reginald Denham. He wrote:
"Those ornithologists who criticise the decision of the Air Ministry regarding Chesil Bank would do well to pay a visit to Lydd, where aeroplane target practice is a regular occurrence throughout the year. A mile to the east of the target field is the well-known Dungeness ternery; a mile to the west the Midrips, a series of saltwater fleets, 'where almost any bird may be seen any day of the year.'
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I have been present several times this year while firing has been in progress, and have seen swans, shelduck, grey plover, whinbrel, innumerable terns, duck gulls, and waders completely unperturbed by the 'terrifying swoops' of aeroplanes driving over the fleets.
This summer there has been an enormous increase of trippers to the. Camber Sands near by. Their bungalows disfigure the coastline, and their sardine tins desecrate the foreshore. Fortunately these people are forbidden to approach or overrun the Midrips owing to danger from aeroplane fire. The birds may therefore be said paradoxically to be protected by target practice."
It is true that we have never had a target at a swannery, but on that point I should like to quote a letter from Sir Kenneth Crossley, who lives at Comber-mere Abbey, Shropshire. He wrote a letter to The Times in which he said:
"Judging from my own experience the Trustees of the British Museum and the Council of the Linnean Society need have no apprehension as regards the swans being disturbed by aeroplanes. There are frequently between 50 and 100 swans on my mere, and I can fly at 100 ft. above them without their taking the slightest notice. It is the same with Canada geese, which are much wilder birds. Mallard occasionally swim into the reeds, but never rise."
I need not read the rest of his letter, but he goes on to say that there is a heronry which he constantly flies over when the birds are nesting.
In view of the accumulated experience I think one is bound to come to the conclusion that what are quite natural anticipations of serious risk and cause for anxiety are really very unlikely to materialise. It fell to my unhappy lot to have to take the decision as to whether, in the face of that evidence, I was to do a thing which I must say without hesitation to your Lordships would seriously prejudice the training and efficiency of -the Air Force. If I could find another site, I would take it to-morrow and take it thankfully, but the question I had to face was whether the use of this range at Chesil Beach was to be stopped with the certain knowledge that if I did stop it I was going to prejudice, and prejudice seriously, the training of a large number of squadrons in the Air Force. I am perfectly certain that any of your Lordships if put in my position of responsibility could have come to no other conclusion than to say, as I said, "I must endorse the decision previously taken."

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By that I must stand, but I am most anxious to do anything to avoid any possibility of risk to this Swannery. I made the suggestion that in the winter, if serious disturbance were caused to the swans, the targets could be put out at sea. It would be highly inconvenient, but we would do it. I have another suggestion provided the area is satisfactory, and I think it would be, from a technical point of view. There is no question about the summer time, when the swans are away in the Swannery to the west. In that time, no injury can possibly be done. It is a perfectly reasonable site for this range during the summer. The anxiety is in the winter months, when they are on this narrow triangle of water where the weed grows most extensively. What I would suggest is that, as the swans move, so we should move, and that when the swans come on to their winter feeding-ground we should move the target a distance of about two miles to the west, which would be rather near to the site which was previously considered, but was found unsuitable for them on their summer range. If that is, from a technical point of view, a possibility for the Air Force, I would undertake that it should be done. In that way I think we could do the maximum possible to ensure that, whether the swans are in their summer or their winter quarters, they shall incur the least possible risk.
I am afraid I have spoken at rather great length, but I felt that your Lordships had a really genuine anxiety in this matter—as I had. I want your Lordships to appreciate the national side as well as—I am not going to call it the local side; the two national aspects of this question. I hope after what I have said that your Lordships will agree that I have taken the only decision which was possible to one who has my responsibilities, and that I have given such undertaking as is possible to make this further variation, which I hope will insure against any conceivable risk, however remote.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, may I be allowed to thank the Secretary of State for his very interesting reply? I will not comment on many controversial things that he has stated, but I should like, if I may, just to thank him for his concluding words. It is difficult to appreciate off-hand without large-scale maps the exact connotation of what he
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proposes. I hope it means that his advisers feel that there may be a possible alternative site, variable according to the season of the year, to the west of the proposed targets.
VISCOUNT SWINTON; No, my Lords, I do not want my noble friend to be under a misapprehension. It would mean that during the summer we use the site which is at present selected, but during the winter, when, as I understand, the swans move to the water immediately behind that target, we should move further west and have a target to the west during the winter months.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: That is to say that the movement of the swans should vary inversely with that of the airmen. I am very much obliged to my noble friend. I will merely ask him in conclusion if he will permit us to talk the matter over with him in his office at his leisure. I wish, if it he your pleasure, to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

THE LATE EARL JELLICOE.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, before the House adjourns, I think I ought to tell your Lordships that arrangements have been made for a Motion to be moved in another place on Thursday in connection with a memorial to the late Earl Jellicoe. I think perhaps it would be your Lordships' wish, following precedents in other similar cases, that an opportunity should be taken simultaneously in this House to enable us to pay our tribute to the Admiral's memory.
  GREAT HANISH ISLANDS.
  GREAT HANISH ISLANDS.
Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had received (by post) from the Principal Clerk of Session in Scotland, Minutes of the meeting held on the 15th November last of the Peers of Scotland for the election of their representatives to sit and vote in the ensuing Parliament of the United Kingdom; and also, Return by the Principal Clerk of Session in Scotland concerning titles of Peerages called at the said meeting, in right of which respectively no vote had been received and counted for fifty years last past as at the date of the said meeting: Ordered that the said Minutes of Election, etc. be printed.

LORD DE CLIFFORD.
Witnesses ordered to attend the trial and to produce documents.
Ordered, That notice be forthwith given to Edward Southwell, Lord de Clifford, to appear at the Bar of this House on Thursday, the 12th day of this instant December, at eleven of the clock in the
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forenoon, in order to answer to the Indictment which has been found against him.
Ordered, That notice be forthwith given to the bail of the said Edward Southwell, Lord de Clifford, to acquaint him of the said Requisition.
Ordered, That upon the appearance of Edward Southwell, Lord de Clifford, at the Bar of this House on Thursday, the 12th day of this instant December, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod attending this House do forthwith take into custody the body of the said Edward Southwell, Lord de Clifford.
Ordered, That in case the said trial shall last more than one day, the Lord de Clifford shall remain in the custody of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (BOROUGH OF ABINGDON ORDER).
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act, to the Borough of Abingdon:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.