Sitting of 31 May 1934

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

ARMAMENTS (PRIVATE MANUFACTURE).
Mr. MACLAY: I beg leave to present a petition organised by the women of Glasgow under the auspices of various representative women's societies, and signed by 64,540 men and women in the Parliamentary constituencies of Scotland. The petition states that:
"whereas the declaration contained in the Covenant of the League of Nations, Article 8, paragraph 5, declares that the manufacture by private enterprise of munitions and implements of war is open to grave objections, and whereas the petitioners believe that for the maintenance of peace among the nations and the attainment of disarmament it is requisite that the influence of personal gain be removed from the manufacture of armaments, the petitioners humbly pray:
That the manufacture of armaments and munitions by private persons and companies be suppressed, and that the manufacture and sale of armaments and munitions be carried on only under international control representative of all nations."

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Edinburgh Corporation Order Confirmation (No. 2) Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    DEPENDENT CHILDREN (BENEFIT).
    Mrs. SHAWasked the Minister of Labour if it is intended that the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee shall differentiate in the payment of benefit to non-insured dependent children and insured dependent children who have left school?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton): The Unemployment Bill does not make any distinction as regards the payment of dependents benefit between insured and uninsured children between the ages of 14 and 16 who have left school. It will be open to the Statutory Committee, however, when dealing with questions of surpluses or deficiencies in the fund, to recommend any amendment as regards dependants benefit which they consider desirable.
    Mrs. SHAW: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the social services available to dependent children from infancy to school-leaving age place them in a much more favourable position than that of the newly-insured dependent children who will pay contributions, and will the Minister take that into consideration in determining the amount of benefit to be paid to those dependent children?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: No doubt all those considerations will be taken into account by the Statutory Committee in making any recommendations which seem to them desirable.

    INSURANCE CARDS (STAMPING).
    Mr. TEMPLE MORRISasked the Minister of Labour how many cases have been reported to him within the last 12 months in which employers did not properly stamp the cards of employés; how many of such omissions have been followed by prosecutions; and what has been the reason why, in the balance of such cases, no action has been taken?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I regret that the first figure asked for is not available. During the year 1933, criminal proceedings were instituted in 1,731 cases of irregularities in connection with the stamping of unemployment books, but my hon. Friend must not assume that no action was taken in other similar cases which were not made the subject of such proceedings. There are many cases in which, for various reasons, it is not appropriate to institute criminal proceedings, but in all known cases of failure to stamp unemployment books properly steps are taken, as far as practicable, to secure payment of any arrears of contributions due.

    BENEFIT AND TRANSITIONAL PAYMENTS (SUPPLEMENTATION).
    Mr. DAGGARasked the Minister of Labour whether, after inquiries, he is

    331
    now in a position to state if Mr. John Evans, an unemployed mechanic, Mr. John Evans, an unemployed miner, and Mrs. Pallis, the wife of an unemployed ship's riveter, three of whom recently broadcast speeches, had facilities at their disposal for getting supplementation from the Poor Law authorities?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: It is within the power of any public assistance authority to supplement transitional payments or unemployment benefit in any particular case, if they consider that, having regard to the circumstances of that case, the amount of transitional payments or unemployment benefit is not sufficient to meet the needs. With regard to the particular cases referred to by the hon. Member, I have made inquiries, and I am informed that none of them had made application to the public assistance authorities for supplementation.
    Mr. DAGGAR: Is the Minister not aware that, as in the case of the Birmingham man, no provision is made for supplementing transitional payments from the Insurance Fund unless the man can prove that there has been a case of sickness?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I do not accept that. What is quite certain in regard to Birmingham is that there is a right to go from the relief committee of the public assistance authority to what is known as the Special Cases Subcommittee, to which such cases that the hon. Gentleman has in mind can, of course, be taken.
    Mr. LAWSON: Is the Minister aware that Mrs. Pallis, of Sunderland, found herself in very much the same position and that she has been badgered by some of the officers of his Department, or some other department, in a way that I am sure he would not desire; and may I further ask, in view of the fact that the public assistance committees are now embarrassed by the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary and are not quite sure whether they will be surcharged by the auditor, if he or the Minister of Health will send out a very definite statement and instruction on this matter, for the benefit of public assistance committees?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I should not have thought that there was any need for that. In regard to Sunderland, I am informed that there is a right of appeal to the committee if, in any particular case, it is thought that there is hardship.
    Mr. LAWSON: May I press that point further and ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is not aware that there is very real embarrassment among members of public assistance committees now upon this question of giving relief in special cases in addition to the transitional payments; and will he take steps to clear the matter up for the benefit of the public assistance committees by issuing instructions?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I am at a loss to understand why there is any embarrassment. Supplementation has been given in a number of cases both in Birmingham and in Sunderland, and I am at a loss to understand why public assistance committees should be embarrassed to exercise a right which they have already exercised in a number of cases.
    Mr. LAWSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why the Commissioner in Durham has challenged case after case—whole masses of them—and will not allow this?
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether there is on record in this House or outside any instruction addressed to public assistance committees informing them that they can give these additional allowances, and, if not, why has all this unnecessary hardship been permitted for the want of instruction?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I will look into it and see if any instruction is desirable or necessary, but, as at present advised, I am at a loss to understand why it is necessary at all. As I have already said, the right of appeal has been exercised all over the country, including Birmingham and Sunderland.
    Mr. DICKIEasked the Minister of Labour if he will inquire whether John Evans, a mechanic, of Perry Common, and others of the unemployed who have spoken from Broadcasting House, have received any allowance for rent; and, if not, will he impress on all the bodies concerned the importance of following the method of the Commissioner for transitional payments in the county of Durham,

    333
    by whom this factor is invariably taken into account and an allowance made in conformity with the needs of the applicant?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: The question whether any special allowance should be made for rent is a matter for the local authority concerned, with whose discretion I have no right to interfere.
    Mr. DICKIE: In view of what has already been stated from the other side, would it not be advisable to issue some form of instruction to the public assisttance committees advising them and instructing them to familiarise themselves with the powers which they already possess?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I can only give the same answer that I gave to hon. Gentlemen opposite. I will consider this matter to see whether any instruction is desirable or necessary, but as at present advised I am at a loss to understand why the question has arisen.
    Mr. LAWSON rose——
    Mr. SPEAKER: There cannot be any further discussion on this matter.

    EXCHEQUER CONTRIBUTION.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Minister of Labour if the list of provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Acts, amendment of which may be recommended by the statutory committee in Part II of the Third Schedule of the Unemployment Bill, includes the provision of the 1929 Act which fixed the Exchequer contribution at a rate equal to one-half of the aggregate amount of the contribution paid in respect of the employed person by himself and his employer?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: The answer is in the negative.
    Mr. WHITE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if I am right in assuming from his reply that the Statutory Committee would be debarred, under the Bill as now drafted, from making any recommendations varying the rates of contribution between the contributors, and will he give that matter further consideration?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: No, Sir. We fully considered this when the Bill was before the House, and I am satisfied
    334
    with the position in the Bill as it left the House.
    Mr. WHITE: Is the right hon. Gentleman seized of the fact that this prevents any variation between the three partners of the scheme; and was that matter before the House?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: Certainly; that is a matter which could have been relevantly raised when the Bill was before the Committee. I cannot accept any alteration now.

    TRANSITIONAL PAYMENTS.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Minister of Labour if he has now communicated with the public assistance committees with reference to an early reconsideration of all cases of transitional payments as from 1st July?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: Yes, Sir. A circular was issued to authorities on 24th May. I am forwarding a copy to the hon. Member.
    Mr. MANDER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the desire of the Government that as from 1st July next there shall be an all-round increase of 10 per cent. in all transitional cases?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: If the hon. Gentleman will look at the circular, of which I am sending him a copy, I think he will see that I have covered his point.

  BETTING AND LOTTERIES BILL.
  Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can furnish an estimate of the amounts staked annually on horse racing and dog racing, respectively?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Douglas Hacking): I regret that I have no information on which I could base an estimate of the volume of betting on horse racing and dog racing.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: Having regard to the fact that this matter is likely to be before us at an eary date, will my right hon. Friend examine the information that was submitted some years ago to the Royal Commission and add to it, so that we can have the information before the Debate arises?
  Mr. HACKING: I will consider the matter, but I doubt very much whether we can get a close estimate.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Are not the Government of opinion that there is far too much dog racing and horse racing?
  Captain ARTHUR EVANSasked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to bring the present Session to an end at the beginning of August; and if it is proposed to move for the Committee stage of the Betting and Lotteries Bill to be taken on the Floor of the House or to be referred to a Select Committee for consideration?
  The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Mr. Baldwin): As regards the first part of the question, a statement will be made at the appropriate time in the usual way. As regards the last part of the question, until the Bill referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend is received from another place, I am not in a position to make any statement.
  Captain EVANS: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is in the position to say whether it is the considered intention of His Majesty's Government to take whatever steps are necessary to pass this Bill into law during the present Session?
  Mr. BALDWIN: I am sorry that I can add nothing to the answer I have given, because I have no cognisance of what may go on in another place. Until the Bill gets here, I know nothing about it.

  JIB CHANES (SAFETY REGULATIONS).
  Mr. CULVERWELLasked the Home Secretary whether the jib crane regulations now in draft form have been agreed; and, if so, in view of the considerable increase in accidents due to the overloading of cranes operated under present conditions, when is it proposed to issue orders?
  Mr. HACKING: The draft regulations have not been agreed. Many objections were received, and the points raised have been the subject of further inquiry and consideration. I am informed that the figures for accidents due to overloading of cranes at premises affected by the
  336
  draft do not show any material alteration for the last three years, notwithstanding increased trade activity.
  Mr. CULVERWELL: Could my right hon. Friend say whether the enforcement of these regulations was postponed on account of the extra expense; and, new that trade conditions have improved, will he give early attention to their enforcement?
  Mr. HACKING: The reason for the delay is disagreement. We are doing our best to get the regulations agreed as soon as possible.

  TRANSPORT.

    ACCIDENTS (POLICE VEHICLES).
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Home Secretary the number and nature of accidents in which police motor-cars or cycles have been involved in the last year in the Metropolitan Police area?
    Mr. HACKING: The records kept of accidents include every case of damage, however slight, to a police car, and during the 12 months ended 31st March, 1934, there were 874 cases in which the damage was so trifling that no question of a claim arose. In addition, there were 168 more serious cases in which payments were made or recovered. One hundred and one cases involved personal injury. Two of them were fatal, but the police driver was exonerated from blame in both.
    Mr. CRAVEN-ELLIS: What is the per-centage of accidents as compared with the number of cars held by the Department?
    Mr. HACKING: Perhaps my hon. Friend will work it out for himself; there are about 600 cars.

    PRIVATE MOTOR CARS (POLICE USE).
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Home Secretary the practice of the police in making good damage to private cars commandeered by the police; how many such cars were commandeered in the Metropolitan area in the last 12 months; the number of cases in which such cars were damaged; and the aggregate expenditure paid to the owners?
    Mr. HACKING: The police have no power to commandeer private motor cars.

    337
    They may ask a driver to help them by affording transport when they are following a criminal or responding to an urgent call, and in the Metropolitan Police District that was done in 35 cases during the year ended 31st March last. The practice in cases where a car is damaged while being used in this way is to see to it that the driver is not out of pocket as a result of his public-spirited action; but such cases are comparatively rare. In only three out of the 35 cases referred to was any damage done to the cars. The damage was in every instance very slight, and in only one case did any question of reimbursement arise. This was a claim for 15s. in respect of a broken window, which was duly paid.

    BICYCLE ACCIDENTS (CHILDREN).
    Mr. ANSTRUTHER-GRAYasked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the large number of fatal bicycle accidents to children under 16, he has considered the need for an age limit under which children may not ride bicycles on the public roads?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam): The number of bicycle accidents to young people is a matter of great regret, but I think that the adoption of a minimum age limit for cyclists would impose an unjustifiable degree of hardship on a large number of persons.

  ARRESTS.
  Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the arrest of Mr. Ronald John Roberts, of Lawn Villa, Harlesden, by plain clothes officers, on a charge of being a suspected person when he was posting a letter late at night, his subjection to finger-print recording, and his immediate discharge by the magistrate next morning without a stain on his character; whether he can state the police explanation of these proceedings; and whether he proposes to institute an inquiry into the whole affair?
  Mr. HACKING: My right hon. Friend has received full reports of the circumstances leading to Mr. Roberts's arrest, from which it appears that he was kept under observation by two police officers from 10.55 to 11.15 p.m., and during that period was seen apparently paying special
  338
  attention to two different houses, outside one of which he stopped for several minutes on two occasions. He was not seen to post any letter. The officers then approached him and produced their warrant cards, but in reply to their inquiries he refused to give his name and address or to give any account of his movements beyond stating that he was having a walk. He was thereupon taken to Willesden Green Police Station and charged with loitering with intent to commit a felony. As the case appeared to be one which ought to be dealt with by a court, the charge was accepted. While he was at the station his finger-prints were taken, with his consent; they have since been destroyed, in accordance with the usual practice. My right hon. Friend much regrets the inconvenience to which Mr. Roberts was put by his arrest and temporary detention and by his appearance in court, but he finds no ground for thinking that the officers concerned acted otherwise than in good faith, and no further inquiry appears to be called for.
  Mr. SOMERVILLE: Arising out of my right hon. Friend's reply, for which I thank him, may I ask him whether he is not aware that this man, who is an employé of a very large firm in London, and has a guarantee bond of £500 for his good behaviour, went out to post a letter, was arrested, and was not allowed to communicate with his home, and his mother was unaware of what detained him; and, inasmuch as this is the second case that has taken place in Willesden within the last three months, cannot some action be taken to ensure more care in making these arrests?
  Mr. HACKING: One of the main duties of the police is to prevent crime, in addition to detecting crime, and, if this particular individual, who knew that he was being interrogated by police officers, had given his name and address in the first place, there would have been no further trouble.
  Viscountess ASTOR: Is it not amazing that there are not more mistakes, considering how many people look like criminals?
  Mr. SOMERVILLEasked the Home Secretary the number of cases of arrest in the Metropolitan police area in which the magistrates have dismissed the charges, with the intimation that there

  339
  was no evidence whatever against the defendants, in the last six months; and whether he will consider the desirability of suggesting to the police authorities that greater discretion should be observed to avoid making wrongful arrests?
  Mr. HACKING: On an average some 50,000 persons are arrested every year in the Metropolitan Police District, and, without detailed examination of every case over a period, it is impossible to say in how many the charge was subsequently dismissed with some comment of the kind to which the hon. Member refers. Such inquiry as it has been possible to make in the time available indicates that the number is negligible, perhaps amounting to half a dozen in a year. The police are fully aware of the need for care and discretion in making arrests, and my right hon. Friend sees no need for the issue of any further instructions on the point. The primary duty of the police is to prevent the commission of crime, and, so long as they act reasonably and honestly, the public interest requires that they should not be hampered in the exercise of proper vigilance by the fear that on rare occasions they may prove to have been mistaken.
  Mr. SOMERVILLE: Is it not a fact that most of these wrongful arrests are made by young inexperienced officers in plain clothes, who are anxious to get promotion and make arrests without really sound cause?
  Mr. HACKING: My hon. Friend speaks of "most of these arrests," but I have told him that these wrongful arrests have been only six out of about 50,000—not a very large number. I honestly think that the police are doing their best.
  Mr. GARDNERasked the Home Secretary (1) whether he is aware that Alfred Thomas Hodges, of 155, Harold Road, Upton Park, E.13, while under arrest on 1st May, 1934, at East Ham Police Station, asked to be allowed to go to his employer's office near by; that he was allowed to go, still under arrest, escorted by two police officers, who accompanied him into the presence of his employer's representative; that Mr. Hodges had to explain who the police
  340
  officers were and why they were with him; and that he is a man of unblemished character, who served in the Army during the Boer War and again in 1914–18; and whether, as this arrest has seriously prejudiced Mr. Hodges with his employer, he will state on what information, on whose information, and on whose responsibility this arrest was made;
  (2) whether he can state the reason for the arrest in the street on Tuesday, 1st May, 1934, of Alfred Thomas Hodges, of 155, Harold Road, Upton Park, E.13, who was taken to East Ham Police Station at 10 o'clock in the morning by two plainclothes police officers and detained about an hour, then taken to Plaistow Police Station and put in a cell for three-quarters of an hour, and then placed with other men for purposes of identification and later discharged from custody; and whether a warrant had been issued for this arrest?
  Mr. HACKING: My right hon. Friend has made inquiries and is informed that Mr. Hodges was arrested on the strength of a statement by a private person who positively identified him in the street as having been concerned in a case of stealing money by means of a trick. Mr. Hodges was within sight of East Ham Police Station and after it had been verified that his appearance was similar to the circulated description of the wanted man, he was taken to the station and the circumstances were explained to him. No warrant of arrest had been issued and none was required. An identification parade was arranged at Plaistow Police Station, and when the person from whom the money had been stolen failed to identify him the charge was refused and Mr. Hodges was released with a proper expression of regret for the inconvenience caused to him. I am informed that he was in custody for about an hour and a quarter and that before leaving the station he expressed satisfaction with the way in which he had been treated; and further that the incident has not prejudiced his employment in any way.
  Mr. GARDNER: Is it not the ease that Hodges was informed that he was arrested on suspicion of being concerned in a burglary with two other men at Plaistow? Hodges told me this, and it is in the newspapers?
  Mr. HACKING: No. The facts of the case are as I have described them.

  PRISONERS (READING MATTER).
  Mr. GROVESasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that Mr. A. H. Ansell, who was recently released on appeal, applied for a book to be issued to him when in the condemned cell, and was provided with a volume of American murder stories the title of which was "The Hanging Judge"; whether such books are usually issued to men under sentence of death; whether he will see that such practice is discontinued; and, further, whether similar works were issued to Ross, who was in the next cell?
  Mr. HACKING: On reception Ansell asked to be provided with light reading in the form of detective stories or tales of a similar kind. He was supplied with a bound volume of American magazines containing stories of this kind, but there was no story entitled "The Hanging Judge." Ansell was seen by the Deputy Governor on the first afternoon after his reception, and asked if he would like to change the book. He replied that he would like to keep it, as it was the kind of reading he wanted. A similar book was not issued to Ross. As regards prisoners lying under sentence of death, it is the practice to comply with any reasonable request for literature so far as the resources of the prison library permit.
  Mr. GROVES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Ansell himself has made the statement in print, under his own hand, signed by him, that the book was issued to him in the ordinary way, and was entitled "The Hanging Judge"; and, in view of the fact that the man himself has made this statement, will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries?
  Mr. HACKING: I have seen the statement made in the Press, and have also seen one of the books in question; and, as far as I can find out, there is no tale in it which is entitled "The Hanging Judge."
  Mr. GROVES: It is not the title of a tale, but the title of the whole book. Should not the issue of such books to condemned men be discontinued?
  Mr. HACKING: I have seen the books in question. They are American magazines in a bound volume, and I can assure the hon. Member that there was no tale
  342
  with that title. I think that Ansell must have made some mistake. But, apart from the question of this particular case, it has now been decided that no books of this character shall be allowed to be circulated in prisons.

  TWO-SHIFT SYSTEM.
  Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Home Secretary whether he has now set up a committee to inquire into the working of the two-shift system; and will he state its constitution?
  Mr. HACKING: My right hon. Friend proposes to set up a Committee for this purpose. Sir Malcolm Delevingne, K.C.B., K.C.V.O., has consented to act as Chairman of the Committee, and my right hon. Friend hopes to be in a position to announce its full constitution in the course of a few days.

  HEATON BLEACHING MILLS, BLACKLEY (ACCIDENT).
  Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that four youths lost their lives recently in an accident at Heaton bleaching mills, Blackley, Manchester; that evidence produced at the coroner's inquest proved that a safety recommendation made some time previously to the firm by His Majesty's factory inspector had not been carried out; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
  Mr. HACKING: My right hon. Friend has only just received the reports on this most unfortunate case and there has not been time to consider them. I am therefore not in a position to make any statement, but my right hon. Friend will communicate with the hon. Member in due course.
  Mr. DAVIES: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the point that these four deaths might easily have been prevented if the recommendation for safety in these mills, made long before the accident by the factory inspector, had been carried out? Will he also look into the question whether it is not possible to take some action against employers who will not carry out the recommendations of factory inspectors in this way?
  Mr. HACKING: Careful inquiries are being made. I cannot make any other remarks upon the case until a full report has been made.
  Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDEMAN: Has it not been pretty well shown already that it was entirely an accident?
  Viscountess ASTOR: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that we have enough factory inspectors, so that when they have warned employers they can keep on at them until things are put right?

  CRUELTY TO ANIMALS AND BIRDS (PUNISHMENT).
  Mr. CLYDE WILSONasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a case at Dorchester on Saturday, 26th May last, in which two men received the maximum sentence of three months' imprisonment, with bard labour, for cruelty to a chicken by tearing off its wings and breaking its legs, the bird being still alive when found in this condition; whether, in view of the frequency of such cases of gross cruelty, he will consider introducing legislation to enable a heavier penalty to be inflicted; and whether he has any statement to make?
  Mr. HACKING: I have seen a news report of the case referred to. Such cases are happily less frequent than in the past and my right hon. Friend does not see his way to introduce legislation in the sense suggested.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: Will my right hon. Friend consider reviving the old custom of forcing men convicted of this insensate cruelty to be marched through the streets with a placard on their chests showing what they have been guilty of? It has been done in Germany with great success.

  EDUCATION.

    SCHOOL BROADCAST SERVICE.
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether the educational series of broadcasts is at present allowed to form part of the curriculum of any State-aided schools; and, if so, under what circumstances and in what places?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Ramsbotham): A considerable number of grant-aided schools are now making use of the school broadcasting service as part of the school work. The circumstances in which advantage is taken of this service are a matter for the discretion of the local education and school authorities, but the board have instructed their inspectors to take careful note of broadcasting in the schools and to do their best, when there is bad reception, to impress upon teachers and others concerned that they are not taking full advantage of the educational opportunities offered by the medium. Information is not available in the Department as to the particular schools or districts in which broadcast lessons are received.

    SIZE OF CLASSES.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will publish a statement showing, at the latest available date, the number of classes with over 50 pupils on the roll in public elementary schools in each county, county borough, and urban district of England and Wales?
    Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: My Noble Friend proposes to publish a statement of the size of classes in public elementary schools as on 31st March, 1934, as soon as the figures have been collected and tabulated.

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    SWIMMING BATHS.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the desirability of suggesting to all local authorities possessed of swimming baths the necessity of insisting upon a rigid standard of purity of the water?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Shakespeare): A report on the purification of water in swimming baths was prepared by the Ministry in 1929. The report emphasised the importance of clean water in public baths and explained the best method of purification. Local authorities are well aware of the recommendations in the report and my right hon. Friend proposes again to call attention to them in the forthcoming annual report of the Ministry.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Does it cover also pools which do not belong to local authorities, like these swimming pools which have been created in such large numbers?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: In a case like that, if the water were impure, it would constitute a nuisance under the Public Health Act, and local authorities already have power to deal with it.
    Mr. LEVY: Do the inspectors of public health take periodical tests of the water?

    ICE CREAM.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the Minister of Health whether he will bring in legislation or regulations to ensure that no article may be sold as ice cream which is not made from fresh cream?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: My right hon. Friend has no power to make regulations to the effect suggested, and he could not undertake to introduce legislation to deal solely with this matter. The general question of legislation to enable definitions of articles of food to be prescribed is receiving consideration in connection with the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on the Composition and Description of Food which has recently reported.
    Lieut. - Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Will this matter be considered with the others?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: I think so.

  UNITED STATES (BRITISH DEBT).
  Captain PETER MAC DONALDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is now in a position to make any further statement with regard to the Anglo-American War Debt and the payment which falls due on 15th June?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Cardiff South (Captain A. Evans) on Tuesday last.
  Captain MACDONALD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the question was postponed in order to give the Government time to make up their mind?
  346
  Does he not think it is time they told the American Government most emphatically that, as long as they persist in passing legislation which makes this Government defaulters, they need not expect any kind of payment?
  Captain A. EVANS: Is it a fact that in the absence of any statement by the Government this country is regarded as a defaulting nation under the recent Act of Congress?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have said I hope to be in a position to make a statement shortly.

  AGRICULTURE.

    ONIONS.
    Mr. LENNOX-BOYDasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state the acreage of onions in Bedfordshire in 1920 and in 1933, and the imports of onions from the Netherlands in 1920 and in 1933?
    The MINISTER of AGRICUTURE (Mr. Elliot): The acreage returned in June as under onions in Bedfordshire in 1920 was 1,275 acres, and in 1933 281 acres. Imports of onions from the Netherlands in these two years were 1,209,264 bushels and 3,713,047 bushels respectively.
    Mr. LENNOX-BOYD: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps in the forthcoming treaty with Holland to make sure that nothing is done to prejudice the revival of that industry?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I will take note of my hon. Friend's desire.
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Will my right hon. Friend also take steps seriously to curtail the very heavy increase of Dutch products coming into this country?

    EGGS.
    Mr. LENNOX-BOYDasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the absence of any official service of foreign economic intelligence supplying information on the imposing and lifting of restrictions by foreign countries on eggs, he will consider the desirability of taking steps to create such official service in the interests of the poultry-keepers of this country?
    Mr. ELLIOT: There are serious practical difficulties in the way of an official service of the kind which, I understand, my hon. Friend has in mind. I should, however, be prepared, if desired, to discuss with my hon. Friend the possibility of supplementing the present sources of information.
    Captain HEILGERSasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state the percentage reduction in the imports of eggs from foreign and Empire sources, respectively, for the last convenient four weeks of this year, as compared with the corresponding period of 1933?
    Mr. ELLIOT: The figures published in the United Kingdom Trade and Navigation Accounts for April, 1934, show that the decline in that month in the imports of eggs in shell into the United Kingdom compared with April, 1933, was 21.5 per cent. from British countries and 22.6 per cent. from foreign countries.

    TUBERCULOSIS ORDER, 1925.
    Captain HEILGERSasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state the amount paid in compensation for animals slaughtered under the Tuberculosis Order of 1925 for the year 1933?
    Mr. ELLIOT: The total sum paid in compensation for animals slaughtered under the Order in 1933 was £71,827.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is it the policy of the Government to slaughter all tuberculous cattle?
    Mr. ELLIOT: It is the policy to slaughter those that come under this Order.

    IMPORTED MEAT (RESTAURANTS AND HOTELS).
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will bring in legislation or regulations to compel restaurants and hotels which supply imported meat to notify this fact on their menus or in some other manner which will ensure that their customers know that they are not being supplied with English goods?
    Mr. ELLIOT: Legislation of the nature indicated by my hon. and gallant Friend would not, I am afraid, be practicable, and I regret I am unable to adopt his suggestion.
    Lieut-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Would it not be of great benefit to everybody if such legislation could be brought in?
    Mr. ELLIOT: The case was examined when the Merchandise Marks Act, 1926, was going through the House. It would be too long to explain the full case now, but it was thought to be impracticable then.

  CROWN LEASES, REGENT STREET (GROUND RENTS).
  Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the highest rate per square foot charged for ground rent fixed since the War in Regent Street; what is the lowest; and what are the reasons for the difference between these two amounts?
  Mr. ELLIOT: Omitting premises in. Upper Regent Street and Lower Regent Street, where different conditions obtain, the highest rate charged was 37s., as a result of an offer obtained by competitive public tender in 1923, and the lowest rate was 17s. 10d., agreed after private negotiations immediately after the War, in January, 1919. Apart from the factor of open competition, the higher rate of 1923 may be ascribed to the rise in the general market value of land since 1919 and to the fact that the site concerned was a corner site with additional frontage and therefore had a special value.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: In view of the economic changes which have taken place in the last 10 years, will my right hon. Friend be prepared to give consideration to the grossly excessive rents that are now being charged?
  Mr. ELLIOT: I am always ready to give consideration to any representations made to me by my hon. and gallant Friend.

  JERSEY (SURVEY OF LEVELS).
  Sir ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUELasked the Minister of Agriculture whether it is contemplated to make a survey of levels of Jersey; whether the Jersey authorities have requested that the survey should be made and for what purpose; and upon whom will the total cost fall?
  Mr. ELLIOT: The Ordnance Survey has an old system of levels in Jersey. At the request of the Jersey authorities this system has been amplified. The cost, which is very small, is falling on the Jersey authorities.

  POST OFFICE.

    UNPAID TELEPHONE ACCOUNTS.
    Mr. CRAVEN-ELLISasked the Postmaster-General on what authority his Department is claiming precedence for distresses on account of unpaid telephone accounts over distresses by landlords for rent?
    The POSTMASTER - GENERAL (Sir Kingsley Wood): The position of the Postmaster-General in enforcing a judgment which has been recovered in the courts is the same as that of any other Government Department, and it is a well-known rule of law that in such cases as the one instanced by my hon. Friend the Crown's rights shall always be preferred except where the Legislature has otherwise provided.
    Mr. CRAVEN-ELLIS: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the effect of taking proceedings may cause landlords to insist upon telephones not being fitted in their houses?
    Sir K. WOOD: No, Sir, I do not think so.

    TWENTY-FOUR-HOUR CLOCK.
    Mr. WHITEasked the Postmaster-General whether it is his intention to use the 24-hour clock in connection with the general work of the Post Office, in view of the experience of the British Broadcasting Corporation since their adoption of this system?
    Sir K. WOOD: I understand that the experiment is still proceeding, and I have not therefore come to any decision on the matter.
    Mr. WHITE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the experiment has brought to light the fact that a great number of people are opposed to it?
    Sir K. WOOD: I am aware that some differences have been expressed.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Is it not a grave abuse of the British Broad-
    350
    casting Corporation's privileges to carry on this experiment?
    Sir K. WOOD: I do not regard it otherwise than as an experiment.
    Major JESSON: Is it not rather ridiculous to find the British Broadcasting Corporation announcer saying that something will happen at 19 o'clock when your own timepiece is chiming seven?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    FRANCE (MERCANTILE MARINE WAGES SUBSIDIES BILL).
    Mr. TEMPLE MORRISasked the President of the Board of Trade how British exporters will be affected by the provisions of the Mercantile Marine Wages Subsidies Bill which has been passed by the French Chamber; and when it is expected to come into force?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): I understand that the Bill, in the form in which it passed the Chamber of Deputies, provides that the cost of the subsidy shall be met by a maximum increase of 3 per cent. in customs duties and also by a maximum increase of 80 per cent. in the statistical duties. I am unable to forecast how British exporters are likely to be affected by this measure, should it become law, or when it is likely to come into force.

    GERMANY (IMPORTS).
    Sir MURDOCH McKENZIE WOODasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the German Government has cut down the sterling allotment for imports into Germany to 10 per cent. for the month of June against 25 per cent. for May, 35 per cent. for April, and 45 per cent. for the summer season last year; and whether he has taken, or proposes to take, any action to deal with the matter?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The situation referred to is being most carefully watched, but as the action of the German Government is non-discriminatory I do not consider that action on the part of His Majesty's Government can be taken at the moment.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Is it not the case that under Article 10 of the Commercial

    351
    Treaty with Germany there is absolute veto of prohibition, and does this not absolutely conflict with that Article?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am advised that it does not conflict.
    Mr. HENDERSON STEWART: Is one to assume from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that no action is being taken or can be taken by the Government?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I should not like to commit myself as to the future. All I said was that the situation is being watched, and that if action be called for it will be taken.

    HERRING (RUSSIAN PUECHASES).
    Mr. H. STEWARTasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether an agreement has yet been reached for the purchase by the Soviet of Scottish herring in the present season?
    Lieut.-Colonel J. COLVILLE (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): Yes, Sir. I understand the Soviet purchasing authorities have agreed to the purchase of 70,000 barrels of herring at a price of 27s. 3d. a barrel.
    Mr. STEWART: Can my hon. and gallant Friend say if that is likely to be the only bargain made this year, or may we hope that another supplementary agreement may be made?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I cannot do more than say that I hope that it is only the beginning of further purchases under the agreement, and it should be recognised that there were no herring at all purchased last year.
    Sir N. STEWART SANDEMAN: Is that a paying price, may I ask?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: Prices must be settled between buyer and seller. The price is 2s. 3d. more than the last price obtained.

    RUSSIA.
    Mr. T. SMITH (for Mr. THORNE)asked the President of the Board of Trade the amount of exports and imports to and from Soviet Russia from April, 1933, to the nearest available date in 1934?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: During the period April, 1933, to April, 1934, inclusive, the
    352
    total declared value of merchandise imported into the United Kingdom and consigned from the Soviet Union was £19,339,000. Exports to the Soviet Union during the same period amounted to £4,435,000, including re-exports valued at £1,388,000.

  SCOTLAND.

    HOUSING SCHEMES, GLASGOW (SUBSIDY).
    Mr. NEIL MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that, owing to a trade dispute over which they have no control, the corporation of Glasgow will be delayed in completing certain building schemes within the time limit for obtaining the higher subsidy and that there is a possibility of a heavy financial loss; what representations have been made by the Glasgow Town Council on the matter; and whether it is proposed to take steps to extend the period in which the subsidy can be obtained?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): The corporation have reported that they anticipate that, owing to the dispute referred to, the completion of a number of houses which they are at present building will be delayed till after the 30th June next, in which event subsidy at the rate of £3 instead of £9 per house will be payable; and they have made representations in favour of extending the period allowed for the completion of the houses in question. My right hon. Friend regrets that he can hold out no hope that legislation such as would be necessary to give effect to this suggestion will be introduced. The hon. Member will recollect that, when the Order fixing the period for completion was before the House, I undertook that the Department of Health would facilitate the transfer of the maximum number of uncompleted houses to the Act of 1930 under which a generous subsidy is available. That undertaking, of course, still holds.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Since the total loss which will be sustained by the Glasgow Corporation will amount to over £250,000 and will fall upon the citizens of Glasgow, and as the contractors are indemnified against any loss sustained by a direct clause in their contract, will the hon. Gentleman reconsider the matter and see to it that the Glasgow Corporation do not

    353
    lose a capital sum of £250,000 in respect of a dispute over which they have no control?
    Mr. TRAIN: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Corporation have entered into this dispute in so far as they are paying the contractors what the men are demanding, and that the strike is not affecting the Glasgow Corporation at all?
    Mr. MACLEAN rose——
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Minister can only answer one question at a time.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is it not in order——
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Minister must be allowed to answer.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: The hon. Member opposite has made a statement of the employers' side.
    Mr. SKELTON: Without entering into the questions raised by the second supplementary question, I would say to my hon. Friend opposite that I am aware that there will be a loss to the Glasgow Corporation, but, on the other hand, a large number of houses under the 1924 Act have been built by them at a rate of contribution which I understand is definitely less than that contemplated under the Act. It has also to be taken into consideration that a considerable number of the houses in question are capable of being transferred to the 1930 Act, and I do not think that the hardship is one that would necessitate the legislation that would be involved.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is it not the case that the deputation which waited upon the Scottish Office prior to the Whitsuntide Recess made is perfectly clear to them that the offer of the Corporation to the men who were on strike had not been accepted by any large body of men, that the loss they are likely to sustain is the figure I have stated, and that the impression left on the House by the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Catheart (Mr. Train) is not a correct one.
    Mr. SKELTON: I am answering the question on the assumption that the figure of 2,000 houses or thereby would turn out to be correct.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Arising out of that reply——
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind the hon. Member that there are other questions on the Order Paper.

    DISTURBANCES, GLASGOW.
    Mr. T. SMITH (for Mr. THORNE)asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has received a report in connection with the riots that took place in Glasgow on the 26th of May; and if he can give any information as to the cause of the riots?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir Godfrey Collins): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I understand that in the case of the first disturbance the police were attacked while endeavouring to arrest a man participating in a street fight involving the members of a local gang; and that the second disturbance also followed the apprehension of a man by the police.

  COMMISSIONS AND COMMITTEES (PERSONNEL).
  Mr. CHORLTONasked the Prime Minister if he has considered the letter dated 8th May from the Parliamentary Science Committee urging the desirability of including scientists and technicians in the personnel of all Royal Commissions, Departmental Committees, and other committees which deal with scientific and technical matters; and what action he proposes to take thereon?
  Mr. BALDWIN: I have noted the views expressed by the Parliamentary Science Committee and made enquiries into the three particular cases to which they drew my attention. The object is always to obtain the best possible guidance, and, while in view of the variety of circumstances I think it would be inadvisable to lay down any general rule, I can assure my hon. Friend that the importance of including scientists and technicians in appropriate cases is and will be fully borne in mind.

  BRITISH GUIANA (DISTURBANCES).
  Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of persons arrested or charged in British Guiana since 1924 in connection with disturbances caused by demonstrations, and the terms of the proclamation, dated 12th

  355
  August, 1933, which restricts or forbids the right of assembly, and the circumstances which are held to justify its continuance?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): I regret the figures which the hon. Member desires are not available. If the proclamation to which he refers is still in force I have no doubt that the local authorities are satisfied that the circumstances render this desirable, and I should not be prepared to interfere with their discretion in this matter. As the proclamation is of some length, I will arrange for a copy to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the proclamation:
  THE OFFICIAL GAZETTE (EXTRAORDINARY) OF BRITISH GUIANA.
  Published by Authority of His Excellency the Governor.
  Georgetown,
  Saturday, 12th August, 1933.
  PROCLAMATION
  By His Excellency Sir EDWARD DENHAM, Knight Commander of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Governor and Commander-in-Chief in and over the Colony of British Guiana, Vice-Admiral of the same,
  &c., &c, &c.,
  EDWARD DENHAM,
  Governor.
  Whereas it has come to the knowledge of the Government that persons who are desirous of making representations with regard to the conditions of their employment are being advised to assemble or congregate or process in large numbers at Georgetown or on the way thereto in support of such representations;
  And whereas an assemblage of numbers of persons in such circumstances is likely to lead to accidents, disturbances and breaches of the peace and to the injury of persons;
  And whereas it is essential to the peace and comfort of all inhabitants of the Colony that law and order shall always be maintained and preserved:
  Now, therefore, I do hereby proclaim and make known to all persons as follows:—

  1. That for the reasons given no such procession or assembly of persons will be permitted to form or gather or proceed towards, from or in the City of Georgetown, and that all such processions and assemblies will be dispersed:

  2. That the above prohibition will in no way prevent such persons or their
  356
  representatives submitting any representations, petitions or appeals they may wish to make for the consideration of the Government through the channels for such presentation either through the Heads of Department concerned, the Immigration Agent General or through a Member of the Legislative Council in the ordinary course or by a request that a deputation of a selected body of persons, which shall be strictly limited in numbers, be received by Government:

  3. That assurance is given that all such matters will receive the early and careful attention of Government.

  Given under My hand and the Public Seal of the Colony at Government House, Georgetown, Demerara, this twelfth day of August, 1933, in the twenty-fourth year of His Majesty's Reign.
  GOD SAVE THE KING.
  By His Excellency's Command,
  T. MILLARD,
  Acting Colonial Secretary.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    AIR DEFENCE (LONDON).
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if, in view of the shortage of technical equipment, whereby in one instance six Territorial anti-aircraft batteries in London have to share one important instrument, and also seeing that the gun-lorries are so old that they are lighted on the road by acetylene lamps, he will confer with the authorities of the City of London regarding the present position of their defences against air attack; and is he satisfied with the security afforded by the present position?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Duff Cooper): I am aware of the shortage of technical equipment for these batteries, and steps are being taken with a view to improving the position generally as financial circumstances permit. I do not know in what way consultation with the authorities of the City of London would help to solve this particular difficulty.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: May I ask whether there is any objection to the City of London making up the shortage in equipment, if they so desire?
    Mr. COOPER: No, Sir, there is no objection. I am sure the War Office would welcome such an act on the part of the City of London.

    ROYAL DEFENCE CORPS.
    Mr. ANSTRUTHER-GRAYasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether recruiting has already started for the Royal Defence Corps, Territorial Army; and, if so, how many applications have been received towards the total strength required?
    Mr. COOPER: Enrolment for the Royal Defence Corps, Territorial Army, has begun, but I am not yet in possession of any figures.

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    NEW BUILDINGS (CONTRACTS).
    Mr. CRAVEN-ELLISasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what percentage of the expenditure contributed by Empire countries towards the total spent on the building and the furniture of the new League of Nations building and amounting to 8,440,832.62 gold francs out of a total cost of 29,940,194.13 gold francs, went by way of orders to the British Empire?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The last figure quoted by my hon. Friend is not the total cost of the new League of Nations building but the total sum contributed by States Members of the League in the 13 years since its foundation in respect of expenditure on League buildings and furniture in general. The percentage asked for by my hon. Friend in the early part of his question might be worked out with considerable difficulty by the Secretariat of the League but the result would be one from which false deductions might easily be drawn. By far the largest item of expenditure on the new League building is the actual constructional work in which for geographical reasons, British firms are obviously not interested. For similar reasons no Empire firm outside Europe could compete for any of the contracts in connection with the new building. As far as can be ascertained the total value of contracts in which British firms might be interested is roughly 5½ million Swiss francs. This figure includes contracts in respect of the Library which is being paid for exclusively by funds from the United States and contracts which have not yet been allotted. Of this total, contracts to about the value of 1 million Swiss francs have so far been secured by British firms.

    MANCHURIA.
    Mr. TEMPLE MORRISasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if any countries have recognised Manchukuo; and what action the British Government proposes to take at the next meeting of the Assembly of the League of Nations, in view of the decision that all nations belonging to the League should not adopt this policy?
    Mr. BALDWIN: As my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, the Japanese Government some time ago accorded recognition to the present régime in Manchuria. I am informed that similar action has now been taken by the Government of San Salvador. As regards the second part of the question, I am not in a position to make any statement.

    ARMS TRAFFIC CONVENTION.
    Mr. WHITEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the names of those countries which have ratified the Arms Traffic Convention of 1925?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The full position regarding the ratifications of the Arms Traffic Convention of 1925 is set forth on page 44 of the League of Nations Document No. A6 (a) 1933 V Annex. The only addition since the publication of this document is the accession of Iraq on the 8th April, 1934.
    Mr. WHITE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say without notice how many further signatories are required before the Convention is put into operation?
    Mr. BALDWIN: Not without notice.

  TRAWLER "SCULCOATS."
  Lieut.-Colonel WINDSOR-CLIVEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has made any representations to the Soviet Government with regard to the events which occurred when the trawler "Sculcoats" went aground off the coast of Lapland on 10th March?
  Mr. BALDWIN: His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow has been in communication with the Soviet Government on this matter; but I am not aware of any ground for representations against the action of the Soviet authorities, which appears to have been in accordance with Soviet law.
  Lieut.-Colonel WINDSOR-CLIVE: Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is the fact, as stated in the Press, that after the crew of this trawler had taken to their boats they endeavoured to return on board in order to recover their belongings and were prevented from doing so?
  Mr. BALDWIN: I am afraid that I cannot answer that question without notice.

  DIPLOMATIC SERVICE (WOMEN).
  Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it has been definitely decided that women are to be admitted to the British diplomatic service; and, if so, on what conditions and on what date?
  Mr. BALDWIN: No, Sir. The committee which, as the House will be aware, was recently set up by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to report to him on the question of the admission of women to the diplomatic service, has not yet completed its labours.

  DISARMAMENT.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will consider the advisability of publishing the British note verbale of 28th March, which was withdrawn at the request of the British Government from the recent French blue book on disarmament?
  Mr. BALDWIN: No, Sir. The note verbale referred to was supplemented by the letter of the 10th April from my right hon. Friend to the French Ambassador which defined more fully the questions to which His Majesty's Governmet wished to obtain the reply of the French Government. This letter has been published in the White Paper issued on the 18th April, as well as in the recent French blue book.

  COLOMBIA AND PERU.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any statement to make with reference to the 1,650 Colombian officers and men who sailed on 22nd May from Trinidad under the command of General Vargas to launch an attack on Peru, and with regard to the Peruvian destroyers which also called recently at Trinidad with sealed orders?
  Mr. BALDWIN: I have seen a statement in the Press to the effect that certain Colombian troops sailed from Trinidad for the Amazon on the 22nd May. I see no reason to believe the allegation that these troops are destined for an attack on Peru. In this connection I would invite attention to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to a question put by the hon. Member last Tuesday when the House was informed that a protocol of friendship and co-operation was signed between Colombia and Peru on the 24th May. As regards the second part of the question, my right hon. Friend was informed some little time ago that it was contemplated that two Peruvian destroyers, coming from the Amazon, would call at Trinidad on or about the 29th April. My right hon. Friend has received no information as to whether this visit did in fact take place.
  Mr. MANDER: Is it not rather important to watch the situation in view of the fact that there are now British subjects manning a portion of the Colombian Navy?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. ATTLEE: May I ask the Lord President of the Council what business will be taken next week?
Mr. BALDWIN: On Monday and Tuesday, Finance Bill, Committee stage;
Wednesday: Supply (7th Allotted Day), Post Office Vote;
Thursday: Licensing (Permitted Hours) Bill, Committee, and remaining stages; Milk Bill, Second Reading; British Sugar (Subsidy) Bill, further consideration;
Friday: Consideration of Motions to approve the Additional Import Duties Order No. 18, which relates to the iron and steel industry, and Orders Nos. 15, 16, 19 and 20.
On any day, if there is time, other Orders will be taken.

GAS UNDERTAKINGS BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee D.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 128.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Amendments to—
Birmingham United Hospital Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to vest in the Crown the property in petroleum and natural gas within Great Britain and to make provision with respect to the searching and boring for and getting of petroleum and natural gas, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid." [Petroleum (Production) Bill [Lords.]
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to constitute and incorporate a joint board consisting of representatives of the county council of Parts of Lindsey, Lincolnshire, the urban district councils of Brigg and Scunthorpe and Frodingham, and the rural district council of Glanford Brigg; to empower the urban district council of Scunthorpe and Frodingham to construct waterworks and to transfer those and other waterworks to the said board; to confer upon the board powers of supplying water; and for other purposes." [North Lindsey Water Bill [Lords.]
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Tynemouth to construct additional waterworks and a street improvement; to confer further powers upon them and make further provision with respect to their water and electricity undertakings; to make further provision for the health, local government, improvement, and finance of the borough; and for other purposes." [Tynemouth Corporation Bill [Lords.]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Corporation of Torquay to construct additional waterworks, to execute street improvements, and to acquire lands; to authorise the acquisition by the Corporation of certain lands and to make special provision with regard to the use, management, control, and development of the said lands and certain other lands belonging to the Corporation; to confer further powers upon the Corporation with respect to their water, harbour, and electricity undertakings;
362
to make further and better provision in relation to the improvement, health, local government, and finance of the borough; and for other purposes." [Torquay Corporation Bill [Lords.]

NORTH LINDSEY WATER BILL [Lords].
  TYNEMOUTH CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
    TORQUAY CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
    Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE D.
  Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee D: Viscount Borodale, Sir Charles Cayzer, Sir Park Goff, Mr. Grundy, and Admiral of the Fleet Sir Roger Keyes; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Grimston, Mr. Leonard, Captain Lumley, Mrs. Tate, and Mr. Tree.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee D (in respect of the Shops Bill [Lords]): Viscountess Astor, Captain Balfour, Sir Reginald Blaker, Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. Denman, Sir John Gilmour, Colonel Goodman, Mr. Hacking, Mr. Kenneth Lindsay, and Mr. Mabane.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

MILK [MONEY].
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.
[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That it is expedient—
(1) to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be necessary for securing that if, in the case of any month falling between the end of March, nineteen hundred and thirty-four, and the beginning of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, the cheese-milk price for the month, as certified by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State for Scotland, is less than the standard price for the month, the Minister within the meaning of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1931 (hereinafter referred to as 'the Minister'), shall, in certain circumstances, pay to the board administering any scheme under that Act for regulating the marketing of milk (hereinafter referred to as 'a milk marketing scheme ') a sum not exceeding the difference between the two prices aforesaid, in respect of each gallon of milk produced in the area to which the scheme applies with respect to which the Minister is satisfied—

(a) that, having been delivered on the sale thereof by a registered producer otherwise than to the board or on the sale thereof by the board, it has, in that month, been used (elsewhere than at a farm) in manufacturing cream, butter, cheese, milk powder, or condensed milk; or

(b) that it has, in that month, been used by the board in manufacturing cream, butter, cheese, milk powder, or condensed milk; or

(c) that, having been produced by a registered producer, it has, in that month, been used by him in manufacturing cheese at a farm in his occupation;

(2) to provide for requiring that if, in the case of any month falling between the end of March, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, and the beginning of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight, the cheese-milk price for the month, as so certified, exceeds by more than one penny the standard price for the month, the board administering any milk marketing scheme shall pay to the Minister a sum equal to the difference between the standard price for the month, increased by one penny, and the cheese-milk price for the month, as so certified, in respect of each gallon of such milk used in manufacturing cream, butter, cheese, milk powder, or condensed milk, as Parliament may hereafter in the present Session determine; and for requiring the Minister to pay into the Exchequer all sums paid to him as aforesaid by any such board;
368
so, however, that a board shall not be liable to pay as aforesaid any sum in excess of the aggregate of the sums which have become payable to that board in accordance with paragraph (1) of this Resolution;
(3) to provide for securing that, as respects any payment payable or paid in manner hereinbefore provided to or by the board administering a milk marketing scheme, the board administering any milk marketing scheme which revokes the first-mentioned scheme shall be treated as if it were the board administering that scheme; and for securing that, in the event of the winding-up of the board administering any milk marketing scheme, the amount of any sums which have become payable to that board in accordance with paragraph (1) of this Resolution (less the amount of any sums paid by that board in accordance with paragraph (2) of this Resolution) shall, in certain circumstances, be deemed to be a debt due from the board to the Crown;
(4) to authorise the payment, in certain circumstances, out of moneys provided by Parliament to the Government of Northern Ireland—

(a) of a sum not exceeding two hundred thousand pounds in respect, of milk produced in Northern Ireland which has, in the year beginning on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-four, been used in manufacturing cream or butter at premises registered under any Act of the Parliament of Northern Ireland relating to the marketing of dairy produce; and

(b) of such sum (if any) as may be agreed between the Treasury and the Government of Northern Ireland in respect of milk so produced which has, in the year beginning on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, been so used as aforesaid;

and to provide for the repayment, in certain circumstances, to the Exchequer of any sums paid to the said Government in accordance with this paragraph;
(5) to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of sums not exceeding in the aggregate seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds, to be applied by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State for Scotland, respectively, during a period of four consecutive years, with the object of securing, so far as practicable, that the milk supplied for human consumption in Great Britain is pure and free from the infection of any disease; and to provide for requiring boards administering milk marketing schemes to make payments after the end of that period to registered producers in respect of milk produced by them in such circumstances as may be prescribed by the Minister with that object;
(6) to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of sums not exceeding in the aggregate one million

369
pounds, to be applied by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State for Scotland, for the purpose of making to boards administering milk marketing schemes contributions not exceeding one-half of such expenses incurred by the boards respectively in giving effect to approved arrangements for increasing the demand for milk, as are attributable to any time before the end of two years from the day on which the first such arrangements as aforesaid are approved: and to provide for treating as part of the expenses incurred by the board administering any milk marketing scheme in giving effect to such arrangements as aforesaid, such sum as may be certified by the Minister, with the approval of the Treasury, to be properly payable to the board by way of compensation by reason of the fact that milk has, in pursuance of the arrangements, been sold at reduced prices for certain specified purposes;
(7) to provide for extending the functions of boards administering milk marketing schemes:
(8) to provide for regulating the manner in which milk is described for the purposes of advertisement and sale;
(9) to provide for such matters as are incidental to, or consequential on, the matters hereinbefore mentioned;
For the purposes of this Resolution—

(a) the cheese-milk price for any month shall be taker "to be the excess over one penny three-farthings of the average price per pound at which cheese such as is commonly known as" New Zealand finest white "and" Canadian finest white "was sold wholesale in Great Britain during the immediately preceding month; and

(b) the standard price for any month falling between the end of March in any year and the beginning of the next following October shall be taken to be five-pence, and the standard price for any month falling between the end of September in any year and the beginning of the next following April shall be taken to be sixpence.—(King's Recommendation signified.)—[Mr. Elliot.]

3.40 p.m.
The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): We have before us to-day the Financial Resolution in connection with a Bill which will shortly be introduced to deal with the milk situation and to bring about certain reforms which are considered advisable in the production of milk in this country. These Measures will vitally affect one of the greatest of British industries, whether we regard that industry from the point of view of the sums of money involved in it, or from the point of view of the number of persons engaged in it, or from the point of
370
view of its significance to the health of the nation, or from the point of view of its Imperial and international repercussions. The annual value of the products with which we are about to deal is £63,000,000, and the Committee may appreciate that figure better when I say that it is £11,000,000 greater than the total electricity supply revenue for the whole of Great Britain. There are about 3,400,000 dairy cows in the country, and the number of persons engaged in the industry is estimated at 320,000. That is more than the total of those engaged in the manufacture of woollens and worsteds. It is larger than the combined totals of those employed in blast furnaces, steelworks and iron foundries and in the manufacture of nails and screws, etc. It is even larger than the figure for the electrical engineering and shipbuilding industries put together.
It is clear, therefore, that the preservation of this industry is a matter of the greatest importance, not merely to the industry itself, but to the nation, since the employment and revenue figures which I have given show that we must count it among the greatest industries in the land. As to the importance from the trade point of view of this great dairy produce traffic—the manufacture at home and the importation from abroad—we may see that from the statement that over 80 per cent. of the world's export of butter and over 50 per cent. of the world's export of cheese are sold and consumed here. The importance of this market to Dominion producers is even more marked. The United Kingdom is practically the sole market for New Zealand and Irish Free State butter, and it takes about 90 per cent. of Australia's supply. As regards cheese, we take practically 100 per cent. of the New Zealand exports, over 90 per cent. of Canada's exports, about 90 per cent. of Australia's exports and practically 100 per cent. of the exports from other Empire countries.
The milk position is so technical and complicated that I should not like to have to give a complete exposition of it to the Committee this afternoon. I have before me the commission's report drawn up under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) and I am sure that he would admit, in spite of the great services which he and his Commission rendered, that they were not able fully to cover every aspect of the

371
situation. It would take me many hours to read the report of the commission aloud to the Committee, and I shall not embark upon that formidable task. But if I omit any feature of importance from my review I trust the Committee will not hold it up against me, but will take my omissions in good part and seek to extract further information from me in the later stages of these discussions.
In dealing with the present position, which is so clearly brought out in the report of the Grigg Commission, may I say first that the milk crisis is not a thing of yesterday. The difficulties in connection with the milk position have been growing since the War, and, since 1922, efforts have been in progress to grapple with them in an organised fashion by means of what was known as the Permanent Joint Milk Committee, a committee of producers and distributors. But these voluntary efforts were working with increasing difficulty and as is so clearly brought out in the report, and as was agreed to by all the parties who gave evidence before the commission, something further was necessary. Consequently a scheme under the Agricultural Marketing Act of 1931 was introduced. It passed a public inquiry, was submitted to both Houses of Parliament and passed by them and was submitted subsequently to the producers themselves who voted in favour of it by a very large majority. We have, therefore, an organised industry and in spite of the great difficulties which any scheme of organisation is bound to encounter, particularly a scheme covering in a few months a trade which employs more people than the shipbuilding and electrical engineering industries put together, I think we may flatter ourselves, as the President of the National Farmers' Union recently said, that although 25 per cent. of the milk producers may have suffered under the scheme 75 per cent. have derived substantial advantages.
Nobody can pretend that such a scheme is in any way perfect or that it will not require a great deal of overhauling. But that is not the task to which the Committee has to address itself this afternoon. The task to which we have to address ourselves is the consideration of the Resolution which has been tabled on behalf of the Government for carrying out the statement of policy which I recently made. We have to address ourselves to
372
the questions: first, are the objects there set out desirable, and, secondly, are the steps which we propose to take calculated to secure those objects adequately I As to the first question, I think the mere fact that this formidable Resolution has been on the Order Paper for weeks and that no Motion for rejection has been put down from any section of the House shows that the objects which we seek to achieve commend them selves to the good sense of the House of Commons as a whole. As to the question of whether the machinery which we adumbrate here—for we do no more than that—is sufficient to carry out that task, we can best examine it in detail on the Financial Resolution itself and on the Clauses of the Bill which is to follow.
As to the general policy of the Government, the objects which we seek to achieve are a bigger consumption of milk and—to secure that bigger consumption—a clean-up of the herds. To secure both those things we shall require time, and we cannot allow the industry to sink while the House or the Government are considering the ideal conditions under which milk should be produced and consumed in this country. We, therefore, have to consider this policy both as a long-range and as a short-range policy, the short-range policy being emergency advances for the purpose of putting a bottom into the market for manufactured milk, and the long-range policy, the cleaning-up of the herds and, based upon that, a campaign of publicity and, if we can, of cheapness, for increasing the consumption of milk and thereby dealing in the only satisfactory manner with the great glut which is upon us at present.
We have chosen the line of insuring the organised milk producers to some extent against the difficulties of the present low values for milk products, which are due, I think, largely to heavy importations, and in some cases to depreciated currencies as well. We have to ensure against the bottom levels, because the bottom levels of manufactured milk were the levels at which the whole of the milk scheme, and indeed the whole of the milk industry of this country, was courting destruction. In the unorganised state of the market a year or two ago, milk in my own part of the country, in Wigtownshire and Galloway, was being sold as low as 3d. per gallon. You cannot produce to

373
sell milk in this country at 3d. per gallon. Milk at this low price is no advantage even to the consumer, because he is getting the milk below replacement value; the industry is running into bankruptcy, and in those circumstances sooner or later milk would not be produced in this country at all.
Mr. KIRKWOOD: That 3d. was not to the consumer?
Mr. ELLIOT: It was not to the consumer. I am saying that whoever paid 3d. per gallon for milk would derive no benefit. Although he would receive a temporary advantage, the industry would break under that strain, and, in fact, the production of milk in this country would come to a stop. We have had to take measures to guarantee a minimum price of 5d. and 6d. for milk although in fact the market price of milk for the cheaper products is more like 3d. to-day.
It has been said that the price structure of the milk supply in this country is a most artificial one and that the steps which the Government are taking to deal with the matter are wrong. One of the criticisms which I have seen made by those who favour a national minimum and who have recently sent round a document to Members, is that it is a mistake to use any public funds for assisting cheese-making and the manufacturing side of the industry, and that the whole of this money should be devoted to increasing the consumption of liquid milk in schools. As soon as we look at the respective sizes of these two supplies, we see that that would be totally inadequate to deal with the situation. Let us take it that some 10,000,000 gallons a year are being con sumed in the schools by roughly 1,000,000 children. If that were doubled in the first year—and it would be a considerable increase—an additional 10,000,000 gallons would be utilised. Milk used for manufacture in 1933 is estimated to have totalled 160,000,000 gallons. Therefore, it is clear that the relief given to the milk market by the consumption of an extra 10,000,000 gallons in the schools would not be any use at all to preserve the industry. At the same time, we have to take steps to deal in some way with the 160,000,000 gallons which are used for manufacture. Even milk made into cheese on the farms may amount to 45,000,000 gallons. When we are dealing with figures of that kind, it is clear that
374
unless we tackle this 200,000,000 gallons as well as the problem of greater consumption, our ship will sink while we are attempting to remedy the problem by means of the extra 10,000,000 gallons or so which it might be possible to secure by an increased consumption of milk in the schools.
The policy of the Government, of course, is conditioned by our international engagements, and the chief of these engagements is the Ottawa Agreements. It may be desirable at the beginning to clear up that position completely. There is no suggestion that we desire to modify the Ottawa Agreements in any way whatever. We have set our signature to the Agreements and they stand. We make no proposals for any reduction of milk products from the Dominions. Those who suggest that some pressure is being put on the Dominions just now to reduce their dairy imports into this country are under a complete misapprehension. Indeed, that misapprehension stands on the face of it. In the White Paper which was published recently giving the interchange of communications between my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs and the Government of New Zealand, in response to the inquiry made by the Government of New Zealand whether His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom considered it desirable that there should be a restriction on dairy produce imported into this country, we said that we had made our arrangements to deal with the situation; that our arrangements were embodied in the statement of policy recently made on behalf of the Government by the Minister of Agriculture, which would run for the next two years; that the question, therefore, was an entirely academic one, and that it was a matter purely for the Dominions themselves whether they desired to organise the imports of dairy products into this country. Therefore, let the Committee as a whole realise that in our Debate to-day inter-Imperial questions do not enter in any way whatever. We have chosen a line to deal with the situation which does not involve any infraction of the Ottawa Agreements or any request to the Dominions to consider an infraction of those Agreements. In these circumstances, we may say, truthfully, that we have completely and absolutely carried out, as we intend to continue to

375
carry out, the bond to which we set our hands at Ottawa. We have, therefore, to work within the limits which are available to us. I have given a broad outline of these proposals in my opening remarks.
I come now to the Resolution itself, and I wish to refer generally to the proposals covered by Paragraphs (5) to (9), which are those which deal with the cleaning up of the herds and the campaign for increasing the demand for milk. Paragraph (5) provides the money to launch a campaign for securing a pure milk supply. "We know that we cannot build a campaign for a larger consumption of goods except upon public confidence in the quality of those goods. We know that the whole of this question has recently been exhaustively reviewed by the Committee of the Economic Advisory Council under the Chairmanship of Sir Gowland Hopkins, whose report has been published and is now in the hands of Members. It is unnecessary to argue further the case for Paragraph (5). I think it is true to say, that whatever may be the merits of pasteurisation, a universal compulsory scheme is at present entirely impracticable, and so far from touching the main problem, that of tuberculous milk, I would quote the words of the Hopkins Committee on page 91 (paragraph 26):
"The total eradication of bovine tuberculosis from all herds is the only complete solution of the problem of tuberculous milk."
I say that from the point of view not merely of the consumer, but of the producer, because it is not a paying business to have to feed tuberculous bacilli. To find diet for cows is already sufficiently difficult without giving it to tuberculous bacilli which pay no dividends. That solution could not be obtained for many years and without considerable expenditure, but, as at present advised, we propose to use our £750,000 primarily for making a start on this great problem. It was recently said by one of the great scientists of our country, Dr. John Orr, that the present position of the dairy cows is a reproach both to the Department of Health and to the Department of Agriculture. I think that that is true, and I think, furthermore, it is a reproach to the nation also which permits those conditions. I sometimes think that
376
if we had spent half the attention on the improvement of the milk supply that we have spent on many far less urgent and important questions, we should not have had that reproach laid at our doors today, because many other countries have tackled this problem, and with a great deal of success—sufficient success, anyhow, for us to resolve here and now that we will no longer suffer under this, out will do our best to see that in quality of milk as in quality of stock our dairy herds are the best in the world.
In the present unfortunate circumstances both of the Milk Board and of the producers, I think that it is impossible to expect them to bear the cost of the scheme for the establishment of tubercle-free herds as well as the scheme for the Roll of Accredited Producers which, following the recommendations, of the Grigg Report, is about to be undertaken in England and Wales by the Milk Marketing Board itself without Government aid. But it is essential that continuity should be guaranteed to the scheme, and the Bill to be laid before Parliament will enable the Ministers concerned to require the boards to make provision for the continuance of the campaign without further assistance from the Exchequer. I shall, of course, have more to say on this subject when the Bill comes before the House, but the Financial Resolution does not prejudice the consideration of the Clauses of the Bill in any way, and I am sure that some of those points will be more usefully reviewed when we can see the Clauses of the Bill actually before us.
Paragraph (6) of the Resolution authorises a contribution of £1,000,000 from the Exchequer on a £ for £ basis for a period of two years for the purpose of increasing the demand for milk. The milk marketing boards are, of course, to contribute the other pound. The boards will be required to submit schemes for the approval of the Government; the grant will only be available for the execution of approved schemes, and, as was stated in the announcement made in the House of Commons on 22nd February, the programme submitted by the boards will not be approved unless it contains provision for the supply of milk to schools at reduced rates. Let the Committee observe again that that merely says one of the things which the schemes are to contain. It does not in any way prejudge

377
the question as to what other provision the schemes might contain. It allows as much latitude and discretion in the tackling of this new problem as possible, and, consequently, I hope that generally the House will be able to approve the proposals in the Financial Resolution, and, if possible, reserve further criticism until we get to the details of the Bill.
I do not suppose that anyone desires to argue the general ease for increasing the consumption of milk. The consumption of milk is low as compared with other countries, although the extraordinary lack of reliable data on this subject can best be realised when I say that when inquiring as to the consumption of milk per head in other countries, I could not get, in many cases, statistics which came down later than 1922, and, consequently, the figures as to the comparative consumption of milk per head in this country compared with the consumption in other countries must be taken with a certain amount of reserve. We must also take into account the very great consumption of milk products such as butter and cheese which goes on in this country as compared with some of the other countries with which we are making comparison, but if we could have increased even a year or two ago that consumption by, quite a small percentage, it might have been unnecessary to present this Financial Resolution to-day or to introduce the Bill for which it is the foundation.
We have this £1,000,000 for milk publicity, some of it for direct campaign publicity, and some of it for a campaign which will advertise the product through the product; for I believe that the product itself is its best advertisement, and I believe that after a year of experience of the increased milk diet in schools which will be possible under this scheme, you will have a self-increasing advertisement which will go on continually, as against the necessity of continually renewing wide schemes of publicity. But I will not be taken as one desirous altogether of ruling out the possibility of increasing milk consumption by means of direct publicity. When one sees the amount of effort and expenditure which great firms find it remunerative to undertake to convince us that Guinness is good for us, I am sure it should not be out of the
378
question for us to consider whether other liquids also might not, in some small measure, come into the same laudatory category.
This will take time, and we have to handle the crisis which is upon us just now. Therefore, we come back to paragraph (1) of the Resolution—because without that paragraph I assure the Committee that it will be impossible for us to hope for success in the campaigns covered by the other paragraphs—the emergency advances. Paragraph (1) seeks authority for the payment to milk marketing boards for two years from 1st April, 1934, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of such sums as may be required to raise the value of milk manufactured in certain commodities to a minimum price of 5d. per gallon in summer and 6d. per gallon in winter—the standard prices. The normal method of valuing milk for manufacture into cheese and butter in this country has been for a number of years to take the value of manufacturing milk per gallon at the price of imported cheese, that is, to take a pound of cheese as a gallon of milk less l½d., which is assumed to represent the cost of manufacture. This method has been adopted for the purpose of the present proposals, and the cheese milk price is taken as the average price per lb. of New Zealand and Canadian finest white cheese in the previous months less lid. At present cheese prices, that works out at 3½d., that is to say, we insure the milk producer against the disastrously low level of 3½d. per gallon, and raise it by means of advances from the Exchequer to a minimum of 5d. No one could say that a minimum of 5d. was an exaggeratedly high price for a gallon of milk, but that is the figure which represents not an unreasonable one in comparison with the price which manufacturing milk has fetched in recent years when disaster did not beset the industry.
Of course, the existence of these two levels—this very low level of manufactured milk and this relatively much higher level for milk for liquid consumption is clearly an anomaly, and one to which we should bend all our efforts to get rid of; but it is not going to be an easy task. It arose through the efforts of the permanent Joint Milk Committee, the object of those concerned in the industry

379
being to deal with the question of a temporary flush of milk, and it is interesting to note that attempts to deal with the milk situation have been tried very much on these lines in Norway and Sweden, the Netherlands, Austria, and the United States of America. In all those countries it has been found necessary to make provision for the flush of milk to be drawn off at prices below the prices prevailing for the normal consumption of liquid milk. We cannot get away from the fact that you always will have a flush of milk in the summer, and even in the winter time now we have an excess of milk over liquid requirements amounting to some 20 per cent., while in the summer it may rise as high as 40 per cent. I should hesitate to say that we should try to reduce that consumption to a point where it only just balanced, in case Providence were to laugh at us— "Well, you want less food, and you shall have it"—and some day or other a disaster might come upon us to which we should have to admit we had contributed to some extent, and confess that we had brought it upon ourselves. I recommend that Clause to the right hon. and gallant Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair), whose support I hope to have in all stages, and indeed for other Measures we may bring forward of the same kind, because we do not forget his eminent services as Minister of Agriculture in Scotland—when, of course, he was jointly responsible for launching many of those great schemes—and for his other eminent services in support of my hon. and right hon. Friends opposite when, against considerable criticism from this side, he forced through and placed on the Statute Book the Act under which these marketing schemes have come about.
Advances will be payable in respect of the milk sold under the marketing scheme for the manufacture into cream, butter, cheese, milk powder or condensed milk, or used by the boards in the manufacture of those products. The rate of advance payable in respect of milk manufactured in factories will be determined monthly, and will be the difference between the standard price and the cheese price, or between the standard price and the net price of a gallon of milk, whichever difference is less. Advances will also be payable in respect
380
of milk manufactured into cheese on the farm for which the boards have agreed to assume full responsibility. From the figures I gave earlier in my remarks, the Committee will realise that that is a very important factor, and unless some measure were taken to clear up this milk, it might easily go through unaccustomed channels, breaking that fine structure of the industry, and bringing disaster not only to the producers but eventually to the consumers also. We have not made provision for milk manufactured into butter on farms. It is less mobile, because it is intimately associated with stock-raising.
The Committee will desire to know what the total amount of the advances is likely to be. It is difficult to estimate the amount in the first year, because it depends upon two factors, first, the quantity of milk which will be covered, and, second, the rate payable per gallon. But, assuming that 160,000,000 to 180,000,000 gallons will qualify for advances, then the expenditure in the first year should not exceed £1,000,000; but as there are two unknown factors it has been thought prudent to budget for a maximum expenditure of £1,500,000 to £1,750,000. As to the second year, I do not think it is necessary to make a forecast now. We shall be able to forecast that more accurately when we see the working of the scheme in the first year. At the end of two years the system of advances ceases and the repayment under paragraph 2 begins, but only provided that the cheese-milk price exceeds the standard price plus a penny. In that case the board will be under an obligation to repay the difference between the standard price augmented by 1d. and the cheese-milk price.
The liability of the boards will be limited to such sums as they have drawn for the first two years, and at the end of March, 1938, the boards are relieved of liability for any balance not repayable by that date, because clearly if these very low levels of price for butter and cheese products continue the nation will have gained a great deal more than ever it will have lost by the writing off of these repayable advances. If prices rise the boards certainly could commence to repay some of the money which they have been borrowing, but if prices do not rise it is difficult to see how it will be possible for

381
them to repay these advances, and I am very anxious not to put the nation or the boards into a position where it was actually desired to screw up the price of milk so that a very large area of consumers should be drawn upon in order to repay the relatively small advances made to guarantee the producers against disaster.
Sir FRANCIS ACLAND: Is there in this Financial Resolution a limitation of £1,500,000 for the first year?
Mr. ELLIOT: No, Sir, that is merely our estimate. It is desirable that the House should have some estimate; but clearly it is not within our power to give a firm estimate, and accordingly a firm estimate is not found in the Resolution.
Mr. de ROTHSCHILD: Is not the estimate given as £3,500,000 for the first two years?
Mr. ELLIOT: Yes, but I am not capable of saying what the figure will be as between one year and another year. I am taking the figure for the two years. It may well be that less or more is required in one year than in another. We have to deal generally with this matter, because we are working with two unknown factors, and there is a third unknown factor, consumption of milk, which it is difficult to estimate. I would draw attention to the fact that since I made my statement in the White Paper the Government of Northern Ireland have found it possible to frame proposals which will be introduced shortly to carry through a similar series of reforms in Northern Ireland. Their legislation will be different in detail from ours, in some ways it will be more drastic, as legislation in that country is a little apt to be, but the Government there are carrying out the broad general principle of grading the milk, of cleaning up the herds and saving the industry from disaster, and also are providing a supply of milk to the children in schools.
I am sure the Committee will be glad to learn that the proposals made to this House have commended themselves to another Government and that the Government of Northern Ireland are following a path which will remove from their country a reproach which has weighed upon it equally with this country as to the quality of its milk. We are at the
382
beginning and not at the end of the discussion of these proposals. Probably a great many points will be brought out during the Debate on which we shall require to give answers from time to time; but I am certain that the policy is sound and I hope the machinery is adequate, and if we are resolved, as I think we are, without distinction of party, to carry out the policy, I am certain the House will not shrink from giving whatever additional powers or resources are necessary to ensure that the ideals we have set before ourselves in this Resolution and in this statement of policy are translated into practice.
4.21 p.m.
Mr. T. WILLIAMS: It is so long since I made my last speech from this Box that I almost feel that I ought to claim the indulgence of the Committee. I am very pleased to be present, if only to be able to offer a mutual welcome to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, who has been a fellow victim. He and I can have fellow feelings, and all the time that he was speaking this afternoon I could not, despite my hostility to his sins of omission and commission in connection with this scheme, help picturing him on his sick bed and feeling sympathy for him. I ought to say at the beginning, and on behalf of the party I am representing, that we entirely agree as to the importance of the dairy industry. Not only is it worth £63,000,000 to £65,000,000 to the producers, hut, when all the distributors and the middlemen and the manufacturers of machinery are included, it is an industry which may be said to be worth somewhere about £125,000,000 to £130,000,000. Whatever our attitude may he to the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman, and I fear that it will not be as sympathetic as he anticipated, I must point out that this is one more instance of the breakdown of unregulated competitive capitalism. The right hon. Gentleman is fast acquiring the title of chief of the industrial red cross society in this country. We can blame world factors, imports from the Dominions and imports from foreign countries, dumping from Scotland and dumping from Ireland, the transfer from arable to dairy farming or any other cause we may choose for the present state of affairs, but all the same this is one more instance of

383
organised society coming to the rescue of disorganised industry.
These proposals must come as a shock to many old-fashioned Conservative Members, and, indeed, to many old-fashioned Liberal Members, who, for generations, have chanted, "Hands off industry." The right hon. Gentleman has never had his hands off industry since he took office, and I do not blame him, because I am one of those who realise that sooner or later Government will have to control and regulate industry infinitely more than has been the case in the past. We have dealt already with sugar, wheat, fruit, pigs and bacon, and now the right hon. Gentleman comes to the rescue of milk. No Conservative or Liberal, especially no National Liberal, will be able to condemn any future Socialist Government for interfering with industry. The present Government have given ample precedents for control, regulation, restriction, subsidy, loans or any other course. The proposals before us this afternoon can be placed in two categories instead of three. The proposals for securing a purer supply of milk, the maintenance of prices, of manufacturing milk, publicity, and milk for children can be placed in one category. Plans for a purer supply of milk are not put forward before they are due.
I commend to every hon. Member the report of the Hopkins Committee, which contains some amazing revelations. Not only is it a damning indictment of the dairy farmers but a damning indictment of our larger local authorities and, in fact, of all past. Governments. The figures in that report would disturb the most undisturbable creature. They show that no less than 40 per cent. of our milch cows react to the tuberculin test, and that there is no sign of any diminution in the number. They show that of the samples of milk taken in four large cities in Scotland 10 per cent. were tuberculous infected, and that of the local authority samples taken in this country 7 per cent. are tuberculous infected. We are a long way from that happy day which the right hon. Gentle man suggested ought to be our goal when we shall have the cleanest herds in any part of the world. Forty per cent. of the cows in this country are tuberculous, as
384
compared with 4 per cent. in the United States and 12 per cent. in Canada. Also, we have a long way to go in the matter of increasing the consumption of milk. I do not see how we can hope to increase consumption until we can guarantee a much purer supply of milk than we have at the moment.
Not only does the existence of tuberculosis militate against the consumption of milk, but it is also very costly to the farmer. This report tells us that the average life of a milch cow is about 5½ years, whereas it ought to be somewhere between 11 and 12 years, and that 5S per cent. of the cattle that are disposed of prematurely are killed off because of disease. I accept no responsibility for the figures. The Committee toll us that it is calculated that this means an annual loss of anything up to £3,000,000 to dairy farmers. If by creating confidence in the milk supply we can assist an increased consumption of milk we shall assist to solve the problem of the surplus, which is worrying the right hon. Gentleman in his sleeping and waking hours.
Our local authorities have some power to deal with this problem of disease, but what have they done during the last few years? I would commend to the attention of the Committee pages 132 and 139 of this report. There they will see bow many local authorities have really been alive to their responsibilities not only to the farmers but to consumers of milk. I will give one or two instances to indicate the sheer indifference of local authorities as to ensuring a purer milk supply. In Bedfordshire there is no whole time inspector and in Berkshire no whole time inspector. Devonshire had neither a whole not a part-time inspector. Gloucester, Huntingdon, Lancashire, the Isle of Ely, Lincoln have part-time inspectors. In London and Middlesex they have one full-time inspector. In Norfolk and Northampton they have neither a whole-time nor a part-time inspector. Coming to my own part of the country to its everlasting disgrace—not to the disgrace of the West Riding, because they are the best example—in the East Riding of Yorkshire they have one whole-time inspector but they never carry out any inspections.
It seems to me therefore that the agricultural counties and past Governments

385
have been guilty of negligence. The Committee state that they are not quite sure that the supply of milk is as clean as it should be either for children or for adults. The "Manchester Guardian" says:
"Without strong and drastic efforts for safer milk we shall, as the 'Lancet' says, be running the serious danger of tackling the problem from the wrong end. The medical profession, to quote the 'Lancet,' is constantly affirming and demonstrating that the present ordinary milk supply is not safe and it is a vehicle for the spread of disease, yet agricultural interests have, on the whole, been unresponsive to the demand for safe milk, and have opposed the measures which authorities advising the medical profession regard as necesary to provide a satisfactory supply."
The first proposal of the right hon. Gentleman is fully justified except that it is so ridiculously inadequate for the job, that one' is almost amazed that he should have produced his policy. He says that £750,000 will be set apart to be expended in four years to clean up all the herds, 3,000,000 in number in this country, 40 per cent. of whom are suffering from tubercular affection. That will mean £180,000 for four years to give us a pure milk supply. I am not an authority on this matter and I am not a statistician, but I have heard it said by fairly responsible people, who say that they can demonstrate this statement in fact and figures, that to clean up all the herds in this country would cost anywhere between £30,000,000, £40,000,000 and £50,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman proposes to expend £180,000 per annum.
What does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do with that £180,000 per annum? 'Is he going to provide Grade (A) T.T. milk, or is he going to provide a national veterinary inspectorate to inspect all these animals as they should be inspected from time to time, instead of leaving the responsibility purely a local one? Disease, as the report says, knows no boundary. You may have one county dealing effectively with the problem from their point of view, but an adjoining county which has no inspectors to carry out any inspection can disturb the equanimity of a clean county owing to the movement of cattle all over the country. We on these benches agree that if money is to be spent on procuring a pure milk supply, then the report of Sir Merrik Burril on page 99 of the report ought to be applied as quickly as possible. Despite any criticism from
386
local authorities, responsibility ought to be taken out of their hands. There ought to be as part of the policy a national organised service of inspectors who are thoroughly trained and fully qualified to do the job, and no boundaries ought to intervene between them and their duties to the State and the people. While we agree that everything that can be done to procure a pure milk supply, to relieve fears, to stimulate demand for the consumption of liquid milk ought to be done, we say that this £750,000 is merely a shield for the second and third part of the policy of the right hon. Gentleman. With regard to the maintenance of minimum prices, publicity, and cheap milk for school children, we think there may be a germ of wisdom in the latter proposal, but even that is so small as not to be commendable to those who sit on these benches. If the right hon. Gentleman said: "Because of unregulated production and competition and the other individual elements within the dairying industry, a surplus of milk has been produced, and there are no customers to consume it or no customers who can afford to buy it at the price, we must do something temporarily, because we have neglected our duty so long in the past," we might have agreed with him, but it seems to us that instead of subsidising the production of cheese or the manufacturing of milk products, except as a purely temporary measure, the whole time of the right hon. Gentleman and his Department should be occupied, and the State funds that are being made available for this purpose should be utilised for increasing the consumption of liquid milk, and particularly making supplies free to every elementary school child in the country.
Having said so much about the failure to secure a pure milk supply I might say in regard to the dairying industry that there are few industries that are improving their efficiency more than the dairying side of agriculture. We know that they are experimenting on improving their pastures for grazing and hay, the selection and breeding of cows, for milk yield, methods of feeding, rationing and balancing labour operations, all of which have been going on for a long time, with the result that from 1925 to 1931 the increased yield has been from 452 to 532

387
gallons per annum or an increase of 12 per cent. Without a single additional milking cow there is a 12 per cent. additional supply of milk available. Apparently, nobody has considered where that milk is going to. Consequently, we are suffering from a surplus. We are not suffering from lack of a potential demand. If the purchasing power of working class people was as I would like to see it I do not think that surplus milk would be there. From 1925 to 1931, according to the Hopkins Report, output has increased from 1,117,000,000 gallons to 1,425,000,000 gallons, a tremendous abnormal increase.
If we are going to guarantee prices for liquid milk, for manufacturing milk, if we are to guarantee certain money annually for advertising purposes, will not that attract a greater production of milk, and if so what will happen to that milk I We should prefer always to devote our time to developing consumption rather than restricting output, particularly because of the peculiar commodity under review at the moment. The sum referred to by the Minister for the first year and the unknown figure for the second year devoted exclusively to subsidising manufactured milk will not necessarily do anything of a tangible character permanently to solve the liquid milk surplus problem. We think that to a very large extent that money will be wasted. I know that it is supposed to be an advance and that at the end of two years if cheese prices reach a certain point there will be repayments. What will the price of cheese be before they commence repayment? Unless it reaches a price where it is no longer possible for the poor to buy the cheese, there will be no repayment at all, and we shall have a subsidy of £3,500,000 to £4,000,000 to the agricultural industry on this account.
We recognise that the consumption of liquid milk is very largely a question of purchasing power, and in the absence of increased purchasing power a very powerful stimulus will have to be provided before we can hope to consume the surplus on potential output. Publicity may be useful, but it is not enough. The Minister's proposal of £500,000 for two years on a pound to pound basis with the Milk Board is totally inadequate. Educate the parents by all means, educate the children and you will create a milk
388
consciousness through the child which will provide you in future with the biggest market, a permanent market, that the dairy farmers in this country have ever had. I do not object to the right hon. Gentleman competing on the hoardings with Bass, Guinness and Bovril, or to his putting large profits into the pockets of advertising companies, but I should very much prefer to see the right hon. Gentleman putting milk into the stomachs of the poorest children. We think that when State funds are used for any purpose they ought particularly to be devoted in that direction.
On the question of the daily, weekly or annual consumption of milk, a very fine investigation took place in Cardiff last year. It was conducted on very sound lines by local authorities, the retailers and all who could render any assistance. They took a good middle-class area, a good working-class area, 'a new housing scheme, and a poor working-class area. Every house up to a specified number was carefully examined and watched over for a period of time, and it was discovered that in the good middle-class house the amount of liquid milk per person consumed was 3.8 pints per week, in the good working-class area 1.87 pints, in the new housing scheme, where the rents have been increased to the tenants, 1.32 pints, and in the poor working-class house 1.1 pints. In the houses examined the number of occupants were practically identical. In the middle-class area every house took its regular supply of milk. In the good working-class area 9 per cent. of the houses took no liquid milk. In the housing scheme 15 per cent. of the houses took no liquid milk. In the poorer working-class houses 26 per cent. took no liquid milk at all.
If we look at such milk as they are using, it will be readily conceded that the poor working-class homes only receive sufficient liquid milk for use in tea, cocoa or coffee. Out of one pint per week per person, there is not enough for milk puddings, and there is little or nothing for any children. Consequently, what milk they get must be of a very cheap quality. These are the figures with regard to skimmed milk taken in the same homes in the same area The good middle-class house took per week a quarter of a pint per person, a good working-class house 1.94 pints, a new housing scheme house

389
3.04 pints, and a poor working-class house 3.24 pints per week per person. It will be observed, therefore, that the poorer the family the smaller the quantity of fresh liquid milk it consumed and the larger the quantity of miserable skimmed milk as a substitute. I ought to point out that these poor working-class houses are not what the Cardiff City Council would characterise as in a slum area, but it demonstrates that the fact of the situation is that the quantity of liquid milk consumed is fixed in accordance with the purchasing power of the home. Therefore, purchasing power, above advertising or anything else, and above any change of habit, is necessary, but all these things will be necessary before we can rid ourselves of the surplus that the right hon. Gentleman declares is on the market.
It may be argued by some hon. Members that the tenants of good middle-class houses have a higher appreciation of food values than have the occupants of the poorer class houses, but that is not borne out by the facts, for in these same good middle-class, good working-class, new housing scheme, and poorer working-class houses as between where there are children and where there are none we see an extraordinary change in the consumption of fresh liquid milk. For instance, where there are children, in the poorer working-class house the Consumption is 1.1 pints per week per person, but where there are no children in that same area they consume 2.08 pints per week per person. It is clear, therefore, that the fewer the children, the more liquid milk they consume. I want to put another point with regard to these figures, which I think the right hon. Gentleman ought to take home with him. He ought at least to take them back to the Department. In the good middle-class homes, with children, every home was supplied with fresh liquid milk. In the good working-class homes, there were 9 per cent. of the homes where no liquid milk entered at all, and there were 12 children, only one of whom received any milk when at school, so that in the case of 11 children they received no fresh liquid milk. In the new housing scheme houses, 14 per cent. of the houses had no liquid milk, and out of 26 children there, 16 were under seven years of age and only two of the 26 received milk at school, so that 24 received no fresh liquid
390
milk at all. Of the poor working-class homes 26 per cent. received no fresh liquid milk, and there were 31 children resident there, four of whom were supplied with milk at school, and 27 received practically no fresh liquid milk.
I could quote from the British Medical Association's report on nutrition and so forth, but the facts are so well known as not to need repetition here. I would emphasise that in the poorer districts of Cardiff—and I do not think Cardiff is untypical—a quarter of the homes of the working-class received no fresh liquid milk. If the right hon. Gentleman asked us to spend public money on the provision of milk for children born in working-class homes, through no fault of their own, we should be infinitely more sympathetic to his proposals than we are now. Low wages, unemployment, and long periods of depression have seen the consumption of milk in certain working-class areas slowly decline, because the occupants could no longer afford to buy it. Milk is one of the first things to go. Therefore, what ought to be our policy I Starting from the basis of an undisposable surplus, ought we to subsidise manufactured milk on the lines suggested by the Government, or ought we to see if we could dispose of the liquid milk in the most sensible direction?
The right hon. Gentleman referred to the capacity of the factories for a consumption of 200,000,000 gallons, whereas the elementary schools last year only got 10,000,000 gallons of milk., Assuming that the whole of the 6,000,000 elementary school children, without discrimination, were given half-a-pint of milk per school day, plus the same quantity during holiday periods, that would come to somewhere in the region of 80,000,000 gallons per annum, and it would be no more costly than the right hon. Gentleman's present proposals. Last year, say the Board of Education, 900,000 children in this country attending elementary schools received on an average one-third of a pint of milk per day, but they paid a penny per day for it, or 3d. per pint, or 2s. per gallon. We make the working-class mother pay 2s. a gallon for this milk that the children receive at the elementary schools, and we are subsidising milk at the factories to the extent of making the price 5d. a gallon. The thing does not bear examination.
Mr. ELLIOT: The hon. Member has devoted a good deal of time to pointing out that skimmed milk is taken by the poorest people in the land.
Mr. WILLIAMS: Merely because they cannot afford to buy the fresh milk.
Mr. ELLIOT: And we are subsidising the cheapest form of milk which is consumed.
Mr. WILLIAMS: My point is that instead of subsidising condensed milk, or cheese, if we subsidised or made free of all charge a daily supply to all the children attending the elementary schools, that would help us largely to get rid of the surplus, and it would do more. It would create a milk consciousness in the rising generation, which would grow up and provide the recipients of this free milk with a real appreciation of the value of milk as a food. Let me give the right hon. Gentleman an illustration. I happen to be one of 14 children, whose parents were poor. The whole family at one time depended on the wages of one individual. Does the right hon. Gentleman imagine that when there were about nine or 10 of us in the home, and only one worker, we could afford to have fresh liquid milk? It may be interesting to the right hon. Gentleman if I tell him that I did not know the taste of milk until I was perhaps in the teens of years, not because I could not have consumed the milk, and indeed he knows that I should have looked more like a man if I had had plenty of milk in my younger days. What applies in my case applies in tens of thousands of other cases. If the parents have not enough money over long periods to buy fresh milk, habits are created that take generations to eradicate.
We suggest that if we were to make provision, not to charge children 2s. a gallon for the little drop of milk that they are able to get at the elementary schools, but for half-a-pint each per day, we should find that, from a health point of view, a splendid investment for the future, as any member of the British Medical Association would tell you, but it would do more. It would create that milk consciousness that the dairy farmer really needs, and it would provide the best permanent market that the dairy farmers in this country have ever had. To subsidise milk consumed at elementary
392
schools would be a good policy and would cost no more, and probably less, than the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman. I do not intend to deal with the question of pasteurised milk, or Grade "A" milk, or tuberculin-tested milk. I think this document that I have in my hands is sufficient to last either myself or any other hon. Member a long time, if only it is consumed adequately and clearly understood after it has been read.
We agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we ought to set to work to clear up our herds and to provide a pure milk supply, but we think the right hon. Gentleman's proposals have no real relation to the problems confronting the dairy farmers, and also we think that while you may spend money on hoardings, on trying to educate the parents, on cinemas, and so on, so long as you implant the idea into the minds of people that milk is an essential food, especially for children, side by side with educating the parents you must let the child have some milk, and if millions are to be hurled away, we think they should be hurled at the heads of the children in the form of free milk. I would say, in conclusion, that we think the Government have started at the wrong end. They will not clear up the herds so long as they leave it in the hands of county councils run by farmers and landowners. Rather should there be a nationally organised service, for only then will there be a real chance of clearing up the herds of this country. The Government are subsidising at the wrong end. We might forgive the Government if this was merely a temporary expedient, so long as a long-term policy was based on supplying children with what they urgently need and what many of them do not get, but because of these defects in the policy of the right bon. Gentleman, I am afraid we shall have to vote against it.
4.58 p.m.
Mr. de ROTHSCHILD: May I join the last speaker in congratulating the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture on his return to the House I All of us on these benches were very glad to follow him in his happiness, but we were sorry to hear that he was interrupted and had to retire for a period. However, I am glad to see that on his return here he is in robust and, I hope I shall not

393
offend by saying, rude health. I can say the same about the hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), who has just sat down, whom we are all glad to see back again.
As regards the Resolution which is before the Committee to-day, although I am prepared to agree with it on principle, I should like to point out that it includes three distinct projects, two of which are no doubt admirable in their intention and may possibly be well carried out, but the third I am not prepared to approve, and indeed I consider that it is fundamentally inconsistent with the other two. Many other hon. and right hon. Members of this House no doubt find both good and bad in this Resolution, and I have no doubt that the Minister has presented many Members with a choice of evils, either to vote for provisions with which they disagree or to vote against provisions they favour. It is a well-known method of Parliamentary procedure, and it is not for me to quarrel with it. This House is certainly in favour of taking steps to increase the consumption of milk in this country, and, although it is usual for the industry itself to provide the funds, I think there is some reason why it should be helped by the Government in this case. A national contribution in the case of milk may well be justified because of the beneficial effect of milk on public health which has been shown on many occasions, and especially, as we have heard to-day, in the case of the younger generation. There can be no doubt that money spent on the consumption of milk may produce an economy later on in the health services, and may therefore become a truly economic proposition.
I am glad, nevertheless, that the milk industry itself is to make a contribution to this campaign and that the right hon. Gentleman is taking a leaf out of the book of his predecessor in this House and is going to advertise in company with Guinness on the hoardings of our towns. I entirely approve, of course, of the proposal that milk should be given to schools. In fact, I agree with the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that this aspect should be given greater attention and extension than in this Resolution. For all that, this part fits oddly with the rest of the scheme, because the rest of the scheme and the policy of the Milk Board forbid the producer to sell milk below a certain price, and now the State comes
394
and buys milk at that price to give away. We must remember also that the success of these measures will depend ultimately on the industry itself. You may approve of measures to improve the consumption of milk, but it depends on the quality whether the consumption is increased. The industry must be able to produce not only an adequate supply of high quality milk, but to convey it to the public at a reasonable price, and this can only be done by a drastic reduction of the margin of distribution.
I sincerely welcome the provision of £750,000 to increase the purity of the milk supply. Whether it will be sufficient to obtain the object I do not know; anyhow it is making a good beginning. If the increased consumption of milk is to benefit the health of the public, there must be improvement in the standard of purity and freedom from disease, and especially is this the case as the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out in relation to bovine tuberculosis. Medical opinion, he says, is agreed about this. There is one thing that medical opinion is not altogether agreed about, and that is the question of pasteurisation, and it is one of the first things I submit that should be examined under this proposal. The question is indeed very important, because we cannot reach the desired standard of purity in unprocessed milk for many years as the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out. Pasteurisation must never be regarded as a substitute for pure unprocessed milk. The right hon. Gentleman has pointed out, and read from the report, that pure natural milk must be our object. I feel the gravest apprehension lest the adoption of pasteurised milk should retard our progress towards that goal. The present conflict in medical opinion is no doubt very acute. It may be very sincere, but it is worrying and intriguing the milk-consuming public.
Certain quarters support pasteurisation because they see in it a possible substitute for a supply of pure natural milk. There is no doubt about that. It allows large distributors to foster low-grade production, and this is a policy that we know the great distributors have pursued for years past, and they desire to continue it. It allows them a high profit margin, because it depresses wholesale profits, and they process the milk. May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman who is

395
dealing with this Resolution that we can only find out by experiments the relative values of raw and pasteurised milk. These could be conducted in schools over a sufficiently long period. Such an experiment, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, was tried in the Lanarkshire schools but proved rather inconclusive. This is the opportunity for a scheme of that sort to be carried out on a large scale which will satisfy the public and give confidence that we are drinking milk which, whether pasteurised or not, will be conducive to health. I know opponents of pasteurisation will agree that there is a present outcry that all milk given to children should be pasteurised, but I think at present it would be beneficial were this not so but if part of it were pure T.T. milk. We could then see whether they progress better on that milk than on pasteurised milk. I should like to see some of the money under this Resolution devoted to that object.
I have pointed out that the campaign to increase the consumption of milk can only succeed if the industry makes cheap supplies available. In the same way the campaign for purity can only succeed if the producer is encouraged and rewarded with higher prices for higher quality. At the same time it is essential that the price to the consumer should not be so high as to place pure milk in the luxury category. The distributor's margin for high quality milk can be drastically reduced because no processes are necessary, and his costs are the bare costs of distribution.
May I come to the provisions which I find some difficulty in commending to this House and to my colleagues on this bench and which I find it difficult to reconcile with those I support? I mean the provision of £3,500,000 to guarantee higher prices for surplus milk. It seems to me a strange proceeding that, while we are voting £1,000,000 towards a campaign to increase consumption and so absorb the surplus milk, we should at the same time vote some £3,500,000 to guarantee a higher price for the surplus, with the inevitable tendency to produce a greater surplus. Why is there such a colossal surplus now? It is largely because the Minister has promised the dairy farmers a better time as the result of the marketing scheme. This has led them to extend production. He comes now holding out
396
further inducements to production and has pointed out to-day that he considers that about £1,250,000 will be spent in the first year. According to the White Paper, he considers that not exceeding £3,500,000 will be spent in the two years. That leaves a considerable margin for the second year—the difference between £3,500,000 and £1,250,000. Does the Minister really think the farmer is going to sit down under this promise and not increase the surplus in the second year? I should be very much surprised, and if this surplus is really increased and comes to very much bigger figures even with the additional grant made by the public, we may find the price reduced from what; it is to-day.
The Minister was very vague in adumbrating his views about Ottawa. He said that nothing changed or would be changed in regard to these agreements for at least two years. What has changed is that there is a war of subsidies between the Dominions and ourselves. The Dominions are subsidising their dairy exports to this country, and we are going to subsidise the surplus here. This competition in subsidy and assistance will lead to a chaotic state in a very short time. It is circumventing the Ottawa Agreements. There is an expression the Minister used to-day and has used repeatedly. He says he is putting a bottom in the scheme by guaranteeing a minimum price, but may I point out that you cannot put a bottom in the milk market or any other by eliminating the natural check on uneconomic production which is an uneconomic return? That is what the Minister is now attempting. I wonder if he has studied the report of the Fat Stock Commission. In discussing pig production, the report brings forward the case of surplus production and says:
"We think there is to-day scope for an increase in the pig population of this country, but that beyond this reasonable increase which may in the interests of elasticity he useful, surplus control operations may be necessary. Whatever method is used should be designed to discourage and not to encourage the production of further surpluses bearing in mind that any scheme which causes the surplus to be absorbed at an economic price to the producer implicitly encourages further surpluses."
This appears on page 74, and it has a very obvious bearing on the present case. It is curious that it was thought necessary to include it in this report, and it is

397
indeed an illuminating commentary on our economic plans. Further, it is very interesting that the report was addressed to the Minister himself. I wonder how they dared to give such a warning to the high priest of the economic faith of the twentieth century. Were they thinking in advance of the financial proposal we are now discussing?
Perhaps one day we shall be treated by one of the Members of the Front Bench—perhaps by the right hon. Gentleman himself—to a book on the 20th century economic theory. Some of us dullards will find it very helpful, because we cannot easily deduce its principles from the practical steps to which the right hon. Gentleman is trying to lead this House. They seem to be rather contradictory. On the one hand, we have a surplus of potatoes and on the other a surplus of milk. To deal with the surplus of potatoes we fine the farmer who grows more than a specified acreage, and to deal with the surplus of milk we give the producer a remunerative price. I am looking for the new "Wealth of Nations" to be published, and in it I know that these problems will be adequately dealt with, no doubt in the chapters on the economics of glut. I am looking forward to learning how we can reconcile two diametrically opposed remedies for the same problem.
The new planning is full of these inconsistencies. I will quote another example. The present proposal assures an increased price for the surplus, yet at the same time the appointed persons have settled the summer prices for liquid milk at lower prices than the distributors are prepared to pay. There can be only one reason for this, and that is to discourage production. Whether the arbitrators on this occasion were carrying out a policy inspired by the pundits of the Ministry of Agriculture I do not know, but there can be no doubt that they were helping the policy of the Ministry. I am not merely stating this on my own account, but on the authority of a well-known man, Professor Ashby, who was president of the milk inquiry.
Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: Does not Professor Ashby say in his speech that he has no inside knowledge of the Milk Board?
Mr. de ROTHSCHILD: Yes, he certainly says that.
Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: Then his statement has no more value than those of the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. de ROTHSCHILD: But he had been on the Milk Commission, and he must have had a little more inside knowledge than either the hon. and gallant Gentleman or myself. I will go further and say that the measures to make the surplus production more remunerative defeats the end of the campaign to absorb the surplus, but it is inconsistent with the other proposal to improve the quality of the milk supplies. The marketing scheme now operates to level out milk prices. It has, therefore, encouraged the production of low-grade milk, and this low-grade milk is cheaply produced because it is largely seasonal and unstable. It is not burdened with the costs which must be entailed in producing stable supplies of high-grade quality milk.
This proposal to make surplus milk production remunerative will have other important effects. I fear that it may encourage the growth of the manufacturing section of the milk industry based on subsidy, and anticipating improved prices for manufactured milk products two years hence. Improved prices, according to what the Minister has said, are still in the Utopian stage, and there is a grave danger that the trade is already increasing its factory plant because it anticipates continuing to buy subsidised milk at the present artificial price. If we are to have a chain of uneconomic factories fastened on the country, we may have to feed them permanently with a supply of subsidised milk.
The real point is that the rapacity of the distributors has been too much for the Milk Marketing Board. It has been too much for the Ministry of Agriculture. Only one share of the spoil is definitely safeguarded, and that is the distributors' margin of profits. The milk drinking public pays 2s. per gallon, and can therefore only afford to drink 60 per cent. of the available supply; notwithstanding that, they must subsidise the other 40 per cent. so that it can be sold at 3¼d. per

399
gallon for manufacturing purposes. That is a Gilbertian situation. We know that small distributors are working on a margin of 5d. or 7d., and that large distributors have insisted on a margin twice as large and the scheme has given it to them. The margins to-day have been stabilised at this high level. This proposal, brought forward by the Minister for encouraging the production of low-grade milk irregularly and cheaply produced, will play further into the hands of distributors, from whom it should have been the main object of the marketing scheme to protect both producer and consumer.
5.21p.m.
Sir EDWARD GRIGG: I rise to support the Resolution in spite of what has been said by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) whom we all welcome back to the House. If we had been considering a long-range policy, I should have been prepared to give his speech complete support, but we are dealing with an emergency policy to meet a critical situation in the milk industry. Giving milk to school children will not solve the emergency problem; it is impossible to give milk to all school children to-morrow, for the very good reason, as the hon. Member pointed out, that there would be instant complaints of the quality. The medical profession in this country naturally pay particular attention to the milk which is being given to school children. While I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Don Valley that the provision of milk for school children is one of the ways by which the milk industry will be put on a thoroughly sound basis, I do not agree that that can be regarded as a substitute for the emergency measure which the Government are now proposing.
The marketing scheme is still in its infancy. It is not in full working order, and meanwhile the industry is passing through a very critical stage. Farmers throughout the country are giving a great deal of criticism to the Milk Marketing Board, but that is not in any way the fault of the board or of its working. The board have done admirably during the very short time in which they have been in existence. It is difficult to criticise the Ministry when considering
400
the measure of success which the milk marketing scheme has achieved in securing the objects for which it was introduced. The first object was to stop undercutting of prices in the liquid milk market. There can be no question that that has been effectively achieved. There is no more undercutting in the milk market. The success of the pooling mechanism, which is very difficult and complicated, is a testimonial to the efficiency which has been shown in the setting up of the board.
Farmers may complain of minor difficulties in the scheme; there are plenty of them, and there was bound to be. Regions complain about unfairness as between one region and another, and producers complain, with even more justice, of unfairness as between one class of producer and another. I regret that the schemes were run even for six months in a manner which certainly penalised the better farmer. Those are defects which may be remedied, and I do not think that there is a just foundation for the wealth of criticism being levelled at present at the Milk Marketing Board. Moderate farmers recognise what the board have done for them. At a meeting of protest in Chippenham last week, called by farmers who were complaining that justice had not been done by the Government to their industry, I was very much struck with the fact that, amid all the complaints, never was any question raised of getting rid of the Marketing Board. On all sides there was general agreement that, however badly the board might have functioned, it should be retained. So far so good. Its record up-to-date in dealing with the undercutting of prices and the pooling system is a testimonial to the efficiency of those who had the task of setting up the marketing scheme.
Things are not so well with the other two main objects of the scheme. One, dealt with at some length by my right hon. Friend when he introduced this Resolution, was the object of raising or maintaining the value of the milk going into manufacturing. The board have done their best. They established a scheme under which manufacturing milk is paid for by realisation value, and that has been a distinct improvement. In spite of their efforts and in spite of the fact that they have successfully raised the prices of certain classes of milk going

401
into manufacturing, prices have been falling, and it was quite inevitable that our prices for manufacturing milk should fall at the same time. When the Commission reported, manufacturing prices in this country stood at 5d. That is low enough, but 3½d. is absolutely-impossible from the dairy farmers' point of view. Up and down this country farmers are saying, and being told to say by critics of the Government, that that situation is due to inefficient restriction of imports. There is no ground for that criticism, and I deny altogether its foundation. The Government have done their utmost to deal with imports. I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that he had been careful to avoid any strain in our relations with the Dominions. If manufacturing prices have fallen, it is for reasons with which no marketing scheme or any Government could possibly have dealt. If the Government had attempted to go further in dealing with imports, there was the danger that they would not only quarrel with the Dominions but would begin to set up dangerous quarrels between the farming industry in this country and the industrial interests. That would end up much worse for the farmers than for the industrial interests, which have much greater influence in this country. The marketing scheme has been shaken by the fall of prices, and I entirely agree that the right hon. Gentleman's emergency Measure was necessary to deal with the situation thus created.
The third object which the marketing scheme was intended to secure, and to which the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Mr. de Rothschild) made a very interesting reference, was that of raising the prices paid to the farmer in respect of liquid milk sold to the consumer. The board have done their best in that respect also, but the arbitration has gone completely against them, and there can be no question that the distributors have got the best of the bargain all along the line, so far. I am not going to join in criticisms of the arbitrators. I rather agree with the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely that the price in itself is not unwise, and I believe that that was said by one of my colleagues on the Milk Commission. Certainly, taking a long-range view of the interests of the dairy industry, it is questionable
402
whether the actual price for milk could have been put any higher than it was. Much graver than the price of milk, however, was the additional charge for transport risk which the arbitrators placed on the milk industry. That is the real gravamen of the complaint, and there is much more justice in it. I think it is an illustration of the criticism which has been made of this system of arbitration, namely, that it is arbitration by men who are brought in at the last moment without intimate day-to-day knowledge of the industry and therefore very likely to make a mistake of that kind about details, much more important, perhaps, than they themselves realise until they know more about it.
The general result has been that the distributive margin has not only been stabilised, but increased, because the distributors are no longer taking any risk for surplus, and the result of the marketing scheme so far, on this side of its operations, is that it has not merely stereotyped the advantage which the distributors have always had, but has actually increased it, and has improved and strengthened their position. The board is not to blame for that, and I wish to make that very clear because I have been quoted as criticising the board for this result. I do not think the board is to blame for it in the least; it is a result of the system and the board could have done no more than it has done.
The industry, therefore, is certainly in a very serious predicament. I believe it to be a passing predicament, but it is a serious predicament, and the Government are fully justified, in my opinion, in introducing an emergency Measure to deal with it. After all, this is a proposal to spend something between £4,000,000 and £5,000,000 over a period of two years, some of it as grant and some of it as repayable advances, and for both of these forms of support I shall certainly vote with complete good will to-night. It shows that the Government really intend to do all they can for this most important industry at the present time. It should put heart into the industry, and I believe that the farmers will be wise to show some gratitude for what is being done for them at the present moment by the Government. I hope they will not continue always to lend an ear to those who say

403
that this is nothing, and much more could have been done. It is really a very valuable contribution to the dairying industry at the present time, and the farmers of this country will be very unwise if they pretend that it is nothing and underrate it.
I have said all this in support of the Resolution, because I believe an immediate stimulant to be necessary; but we have to recognise that the after-effects of stimulants are not all agreeable or salutary. I believe we must also recognise that, having taken these emergency measures, which we cannot avoid taking and which are, I believe, indispensable, we shall find that some correctives are needed afterwards, and that measures must be devised without too much delay to deal with the fundamental problem of the industry—something more permanent than anything we are considering this afternoon. I support this as an emergency measure, fully believing that long-range measures which go more thoroughly into the problems and difficulties of the industry will be presented to us before long. I should like to make the grounds of that perfectly clear.
Let us consider the probable aftereffects of this Resolution. Let us consider, first of all, its effect on manufacturing prices. Under this Resolution, the rise of manufacturing prices will in fact be fixed at 6d. in summer and 7d. in winter, because if they rise above those figures repayment to the Government will begin. We must, therefore, regard this Resolution as putting a definite limit to the possible rise in the manufacturing price after the two years period. A rise to 6d. from the present price of 3½d. is only a rise of 2½d., and it is a rise which takes effect on only one-sixth—that is to say the surplus—of the total sales of the Milk Marketing Board. A rise, therefore, of 2½d., which is the limit of what can be achieved on the surplus milk, is less than ½d. in its effect on the total pool price. What the Government are doing now will not mean very much above ¼d. to ½d. But when this period of two years is over, and the repayment conditions come in, the rise will be limited to something like ½d. on pool prices.
Of course, the Government may waive this repayment. The right hon. Gentle-
404
man suggested that that might prove to be necessary when the time comes. But, even if they do waive repayment, I do not believe it is going to be found possible to raise manufacturing prices very seriously; I think it will be found in practice that this same limit will be fixed by other considerations—first of all by the consumer. There is a great deal of feeling in the country at the present moment on the subject, for instance, of butter. Butter imports have increased enormously, and people are saying on a hundred platforms that this butter ought to be kept out, and that butter ought to be supplied by our own dairy farmers. I do not believe that that is a practical argument at all. The consumption of butter in this country is increasing at the present time for the very reason that the price is so low. In homes all over the country people are eating butter who never had butter before. Perhaps they had nothing in that way at all; perhaps they had dripping, perhaps margarine. Now they are eating butter, but only because the price is so low, and, if you exclude these imports which are coming in at this cheap rate, you are not going to get them to eat English butter at a higher price; they will go back to less butter, to dripping, or to margarine. Therefore, the idea that you can go very far in raising prices to the consumer on the manufacturing side, particularly as regards butter and cheese, is, I think, very misleading.
There is the further fact that, if you are really going to try to deal drastically with prices and with imported butter and cheese, you are going to be faced with a serious disagreement with the Dominions. After all, we are practically their only market for these commodities, and I do not see that there is really very much guidance to be got from the formula, which is now being recited everywhere, of putting our own farmers first, the Dominions second, and the foreigner third. By all means let us give the Dominions a preference over the foreigner, but, when we talk about putting our farmers first and the Dominions second, we have to decide exactly where the interests of this country lie, and where the interests of the Empire lie, and it would be very easy to interpret that formula in a way which would mean that the Dominions

405
were kept entirely out of our British market.
It seems to be that the only possible principle for us to adopt in dealing with the Dominions in regard to our farm products is the principle which we have asked them to accept in regard to their manufactures, that is to say, that we should concentrate on things which we can produce on a reasonable economic basis. That is what we are asking them to do in regard to manufactures, and we are bound to take the same line in regard to our own farm products. There is strain at the moment in the Dominions. It arises not from anything that we have done, but from anxiety and uncertainty. They do not know what we are going to do in the future, and the sooner some principle like that is laid down in regard to our agricultural products—a principle which is the same as that which we have asked them to lay down in regard to their manufactures—the better it will be.
I am sure that the application of some principle of this kind will also be claimed by the industrial interests of this country, who are interested in export markets, and it would not really be in the interests of our agriculture to resist it. After all, there is a new spirit in this country towards agriculture, but it is still a delicate plant, and you do not want to encourage or stimulate any reaction on the part of the great industrial vote in this country against the interests of the farmer. I think, therefore, that we have to recognise as a fundamental fact that it will not be possible to raise pool prices very much from the manufacturing end, whatever may be attempted in other directions. It is a grave disservice to the farmer to suggest to him that the restriction of imports is the key to the prosperity of his industry. It is misleading him completely.
I believe that, if we try to put the dairy industry on a stable foundation, we shall be driven to deal with the other end of the industry—with the liquid milk market and subsidiaries to the liquid milk market, such as the market for fresh cream and the market for cheese made on our farms. The scheme which the Government have put before us this afternoon does something in this respect. It does begin to give definite encouragement to quality production, and it does at least make a beginning in the en-
406
couragement of demand by giving more milk to school children; but here two difficulties are going to arise when the scheme terminates. When these grants terminate, the whole cost for whatever has been set up will fall upon the board, and the board, therefore, will have to meet heavier charges as a result of what has happened in these two years through the assistance of the Government. The board will be accumulating liabilities all this time, which it will be very difficult for them to escape afterwards, and, if they are to meet those liabilities in two years' time, and, indeed, to develop on the lines on which the Government wish them to develop, there must be an improvement in the price which the farmer receives from the liquid milk market.
The Milk Marketing Board is doing something itself—and I think that this deserves recognition—to deal with this question of the price for liquid milk. It is abolishing the idea that the retail price of milk is to be governed by what is called the prevailing regional price. That was a system under which the distributors fixed the price and then the board became responsible for enforcing it. The distributors in many cases during the past winter months have fixed what seemed to me to be quite exaggerated and improper prices, and the board have had to take the responsibility. That, I think, was a very undesirable system, and the board are quite right in escaping from it. They are going to lay down, I am informed, as an alternative, a system under which they fix minimum margins for distribution; that is to say, in certain places where distribution is comparatively simple, the margin is to be 8d., in other intermediary places 9d., and in the great cities 10d., or something of that kind, and the minimum margins are to be fixed at that figure. Of course, the margins may be greater if distributors so choose. At any rate, this introduces the element of competition, and it may be effective up to a certain point in reducing the distributive margin and keeping the retail price at a reasonable level. But even so, these margins are very wide and the danger, from the dairy farmer's point of view, is that every increase of the wholesale price to him will produce either a deadlock, such as occurred between the distributor and the producer before this scheme came in, which may always occur

407
again, or an increase of price to the consumer, which would be even worse.
I believe, therefore, that in any adequate dairy farmers' organisation an impartial arbitral element will be found to be absolutely indispensable in securing the support of the public. I admit that the present system of arbitration is unsatisfactory, and I have no doubt that the board will now go ahead and attempt to dispense altogether with any system of arbitration. They are entitled to do that. The system expires, under the Resolution which we passed last year, I think on 6th October, and the board are perfectly entitled to go on and see what they can do without arbitration, but I am convinced that they will find that arbitrators are necessary and, without an arbitral element which will keep them right with the public and will also be able to deal with the great distributing interest, I think the hope of the producer getting an adequate share of the price paid by the consumer is very small indeed.
I believe also that he will not go very far in getting a better share of the price unless he gets the co-operation of the distributors. The system of distribution, after all, is an extremely elaborate one, and in a city such as London the task of distribution is immensely difficult. It is not merely that milk has to be delivered all over a vast area. There are also very difficult balancing functions to be carried out between the requirements of weekends, requirements during the week, and so on. This very complex and delicate machinery has been built up entirely by private enterprise and with a considerable investment of share capital, and it seems to me impossible, unless this House changes the policy of the country, to put an organisation of that kind, carrying a very large amount of share capital, conducted and created by private enterprise, entirely at the mercy of a statutory monopoly working in an essential commodity. I therefore think that the producers must get, if they can, the co-operation of the distributors, and that they will find that co-operation indispensable if the system of distribution is to be simplified and cheapened. I believe both these things are possible. They are the real key to the prosperity of the industry, and somehow or other that fundamental problem of the industry must be tackled. I do not wish to be
408
in the position of one crying his own wares, but we attempted to deal with this in the report of the Milk Committee. There may be other ways of dealing with it. All I say is that the right hon. Gentleman will not put the dairy industry on a firm foundation until he has tackled this question of distribution and the costs and profits arising from it.
Furthermore—this is what will be necessary in addition to these emergency measures—the demand for milk must be increased, and for that purpose the price must be lowered. It is no good to denounce from farming platforms the people who buy tinned, skimmed milk. They buy it because they cannot afford anything else. It is ridiculous to abuse them as though they bought it because they preferred it to better milk which the farmers of this, country should produue for them. If milk is to be more widely drunk, the price of it must be reduced and at the same time, of course, the quality must be improved. That I believe to be possible, but only through the co-operation of the whole milk industry, including the distributors. Never try to proceed by the method of a war between the two sections of the industry—a war in which, whatever arrangements you make, the producers will always get the worst.
I think we have to spread the consumption of milk, and the key to that is the school children. I was very much surprised at the observations that the right hon. Gentleman directed to this subject. It was practically the only part of his speech with which I did not find myself in agreement. He seemed to suggest that the provision of milk to school children could only be made to deal with a comparatively small part of the surplus in the liquid market. I really do not believe that to be the case. I would go even further than the hon. Member for Don Valley. I believe the supply of milk to school children would consume something like 300,000 gallons a day, or 9,000,000 gallons a month, and that is a very large part of the surplus with which the Milk Marketing Board have to deal. Here is the Milk Marketing Board's report. The surplus in the first month, October, was 7,000,000 gallons, in November 8,000,000, in December 9,000,000, and of course, it has risen row to 15,000,000. Nevertheless, this provision of milk for school children is going to

409
deal very effectively with the greater part of the surplus which the Marketing Board has to dispose of, and, if you add, as I believe you ought, milk for infants not yet of school age and assistance to nursing mothers, you will find that the whole of the surplus can be used very effectively indeed. The hon. Member for Don Valley made, as I thought, a most impressive case, though not as an emergency measure. If he had argued it from that point of view, I should certainly have agreed very fully with him.
There are certain difficulties about providing milk for school children. The right hon. Gentleman is tackling one of them. He is endeavouring to improve the quality. That is essential, of course, but we have to go further and face the great difficulty of providing milk on a large scale for school children of whom some pay and some do not. That makes a great difficulty for the teachers, and it produces a discrimination in the school between children which seems to me very undesirable. I do not agree that a system under which milk is paid for by those whose parents can afford to give them pennies to bring to school is at all desirable. It makes great complication for the teachers which they dislike and resent. They dislike having to collect the pennies and having to make the discrimination. That method should be avoided. On the other hand, I can quite see that there are strong objections to an entirely non-contributory scheme. It is true that, if the Government is going to spend money on the milk industry anyhow, it is better that they should spend it at this end than in any other way, but there are objections to a non-contributory scheme, and I would, therefore, beg the Government to consider the possibility of establishing something in the nature of a new children's health insurance fund to which contributions shall be paid by the milk industry and by the parents and made up so far as is necessary by the Government. Probably all parts of the House would join in supporting a measure of that kind. It might prove of the greatest value to all children while entirely removing discrimination between children whose parents can afford to pay and those who cannot. I have only been tempted to make these observations because this industry is so vital to the country and because I lived with its problems for
410
something like nine months continuously. I believe, with the right hon. Gentleman, that a prosperous dairy industry is just as necessary to the health of the nation as it is to the welfare of agriculture, and anything that this House can do to assist the industry over the stile it ought to do. For that reason, I give my whole-heared support to the Resolution.
5.57 p.m.
Mr. LAMBERT: I agree with very much of my hon. Friend's speech. He has made a very valuable contribution to the Debate, as would be expected from one who has lived for nine months with the problems of the industry, and I am sure, though I disagree with one or two points that he has made, that he has the interests of the industry at heart, as we have. May I add my word of congratulation to the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams). He was so vigorous that I think he must have been indulging in a milk diet. Then we come to the Minister. We are all glad to see him back. He is the mainspring of the whole machine. The Resolution has been on the Paper for a month and it could not be taken because he was not here. Personally, I wish he had been married twelve months ago. Then he would have learnt more about marketing. Under this Resolution we are to vote a considerable sum of money until the beginning of April, 1936. I want to know what is going to happen then. Are we to have before that a long range policy for the milk industry? My hon. Friend says we cannot expect higher prices. If we cannot expect higher prices, tell the people so, because the milk industry is one that cannot be built up in a moment. It takes some years to build up and, if you are not going to give them higher prices for its products, tell them so. Do not lead them into the illusion that this subsidy will come to an end at that time. I am asking on behalf of the milk producers. It is very easy to talk about milk and milk distribution here, but my mind goes down to the thousands of small milk producers in Devonshire who are working not six, but seven days a week, and many hours a day, and they cannot at present make a living. It is our duty to see that such men can make a living.
I am going to ask one or two questions of my right hon. Friend. I do not understand why the milk industry has been

411
dealt with in a different way from other industries. These milk schemes were the progeny of the Ministry of Agriculture. We must not talk about them having emanated from the farmers themselves. The Milk Marketing Board was set up by my right hon. Friend. I am very doubtful if these marketing schemes will succeed unless they are very considerably altered. I am certain that this marketing scheme cannot succeed unless it deals with the distributors. At the present moment the farmers, who are presumably working the scheme, are under all sorts of restrictions. They are at the producing end, but they have nothing whatever to do with the selling end of the business. I have figures here from Devonshire proving that actually the distributors in this matter are getting a larger percentage of the total profit than before. I understood that marketing meant that the producer was to get more, the consumer was to pay less, and that the retailer would get a lessened margin. The contrary has taken place.
I have the figures for Torquay. In 1913 the retailers' margin was 5d. a gallon, in 1918 it was 8d. per gallon, in 1933 it was 9d. a gallon, but now under this marketing scheme the producer gets 10¼d. and the retailer sells at 1s. l0d. The retailer buys at a shilling a gallon and there is l½d. taken off for carriage. I am only talking of Torquay, and I have obtained the figures from a very well-known milk producer. In most cases the carriage is very much higher. I am giving the figures to prove that the retailer is actually, under this marketing scheme, getting a larger share of the profit than before. The retailer buys at a shilling and sells at 1s. 10d. Therefore, instead of obtaining a margin of 9d. as in 1933, he gets a margin of 10d. a gallon. The producer, even in this favoured case, only gets 10¼d. for production. Can that be right?
Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: As the right hon. Gentleman is speaking of my constituency, would he permit me to say that I know a very large number of people in the constituency who only get from 8d. to 9d. as producers, which makes the position far worse than that shown by the figures he has given.
Mr. LAMBERT: My hon. Friend who represents one of the constituencies in Devonshire knows that I am always moderate and try to put the moderate side of the case. These figures were given to me by a very well known milk producer in the County of Devon. If my hon. Friend makes the case stronger, all well and good, but I am only stressing the point to show that the distributors-under the marketing scheme are getting a larger share of the profits than before. If that be so, cannot the position be altered I My right hon. Friend the Minister appointed the arbitrators, and if the three arbitrators are to fix a given sum without any idea as to the cost of the production of the milk, the milk producer will be in the cart. We know that there is no one more zealous in promoting the agricultural interests than my right hon. Friend. He has shown it on every occasion, and therefore I want to help him to make his policy a success. I want to help hon. Members who think with me because in 1936 a General Election will be very near, and I do not want to see the hon. Gentlemen who now sit on the opposite side of the House on this side. I tell them that quite frankly. It is one thing I am living for at the present moment. I want my right hon. Friend to realise these difficulties.
We heard a great deal from the hon. Member for Don Valley about the purity of milk. You can get milk as pure as you like if you are prepared to pay for it. It is a question of cost. I happen to be Chairman of an institution, the Seale Hayne College in Devon. We produce Grade A (T.T) milk, but it is costly. The hands of the milkers have to be clean, and the milk has to be cooled and bottled, which is a costly business. If you are to increase the purity of milk it will cost more money, and I do not understand how the hon. and gallant Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) can remedy that position. I know something about the production of milk and the keeping of cows and all the rest of it. It is said that all the tuberculous cows must be killed. That would cost a tremendous lot of money. In our college some of the cows had to be killed off, and it cost the college £500. That is not the way to decrease the cost of milk. We can have milk perfectly clean, but we shall have to pay for it.
Sir FRANCIS FREMANTLE: I would point out to my right hon. Friend that the report did not as a matter of fact suggest that the cows should be killed, but that when tuberculous cows were taken about the country measures should be taken to avoid the infection of other cattle.
Mr. LAMBERT: To tell you the honest truth I do not take an awful lot of notice of this particular report. It is drawn up by a number of gentlemen who sit in London and who do not know anything about milk production or they would not talk so freely about it. I do not take much notice of it. I want my hon. Friends to understand that if you have a cow reacting to the tuberculin test, if you are honest, you do not sell it. It has to be got rid of, and therefore it is a loss. Hon. Members opposite talk so much about the purity of our milk, but what about the purity of supplies which come into this country? I have here the statistics of the milk products which come into this country from several Northern countries. I took them from the Board of Trade Returns. There are milk products from Soviet Russia, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. From Soviet Russia we received in the first four months of this year 96,430 cwts., and from Finland 47,000 cwts. I will not bother the Committee with the other figures. These are the milk products which are coming into this country, and I would ask whether all the conditions laid down in this report are practised in those countries? Can anybody tell me that the butter and milk products which come from Russia do not come from tuberculin cows I Can anyone say so? We are entitled to fair play, and if we are compelled to produce under these very clean conditions, then we must compel our competitors to do so too.
It is very curious that you must not interfere with any import which is called food. You can call anything food even though it is made under the most filthy conditions. I am full of suspicion that in some of these Northern countries milk is not dealt with under the cleanest and most hygienic conditions, and I do not suppose that butter is made under conditions which would pass the test of the committee which issued this report. When my right hon. Friend is dealing
414
with this question I want him to tell us what he is going to do, when spending a large sum of money in cleaning up our own herds, to prevent competition from herds which are not as clean as ours. I ask the question as a matter of fair play for the home producers. At the moment I think that a very sympathetic interest is being taken in the agricultural industry. The people in the large towns want to know what they are buying. They do not want to buy butter produced under disgusting conditions. I ask these questions of my right hon. Friend, not in any spirit of criticism, but because I want to help him in this matter. As we are spending this considerable sum of money, the dairy farmers of the country want to know where they are. I hope that the Milk Marketing Board will succeed. I have always had my doubts about it, and they were confirmed when I read the forms which were sent to me the other day. It will take a lawyer like the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) to understand them. I shall never understand them.
Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: I will advise the right hon. Gentleman if he wants me to do so.
Mr. LAMBERT: Provided the right hon. and learned Gentleman does it under the Socialist system.
Sir S. CRIPPS: We have not a Socialist system yet.
Mr. LAMBERT: It must not be under the Capitalist system. In Devonshire there has been something like a riot going on, and I hope that the difficulties will be smoothed out. The Government must bend their energies to this task, otherwise the milk industry, which must be given assurance of permanence, cannot prosper.
6.14 p.m.
Mr. LEONARD: This matter has been introduced to us to-day by a very explanatory statement from the Minister of Agriculture, and I know that he will understand me when I say that it was adequate as far as detail was concerned but of very vulnerable character so far as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) was concerned. I listened with great interest to his statement as to the strength of

415
this industry in comparison with others, and while it may be the case that there are 220,000 connected with the dairy side of the farming industry, we must not forget that they are producing a product of tremendous importance to the whole of the community, and as some 21,000,000 of people are depending on it for some of their energy to earn their livelihood, we have to look carefully on the matters brought before us.
While it is true that we have to pay greater attention to the improvement of our herds, one of the most important of the proposals in the Resolution, that referring to a greater production of milk, will be to the ultimate advantage of the people of the country provided it is made accessible to them. That is one of the points which is very often missed, or rather which is not given its proper place in our discussions. I see no hope for the milk industry at all unless the things they produce are made more accessible to the people, and if it is not going to be in the form of an increase in wages it must be attended to through the price. These are emergency proposals, and as long as we confine ourselves to emergency proposals we are simply putting off the day when we shall have to face up to the position which confronts us in this industry. I accept the position that we cannot shut out of consideration our relationship with other parts of the Empire. We have received a statement from the Minister of Agriculture to the effect that Ottawa and its Agreements are a thing apart and do not touch these matters at all, but I am afraid that I cannot accept that proposal.
Before passing to a consideration of one or two of the details I should like to say to the right hon. Member for South Molton that I have rather an intimate connection with farmers. I myself do not farm, although I have farmed in other countries, and without disparaging farmers at all I must say that I have never yet met a farmer who has been satisfied with the conditions on his farm. They have always been dissatisfied, and are never prepared to say that they have had a good crack of the whip. There is a point in what the right hon. Gentleman said in regard to conditions in other countries. If we are going to do anything here we are entitled to look at the conditions which prevail in other countries;
416
at the same time, it is our job to put our own house in order. There was the case which has been put forward by the hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) and, therefore, irrespective of what other countries may do, we must put our own house in order and then we shall be in a better position to tell those countries which do not come up to our standard that they will have to conform to them in some way or other. Until that is done we have rather a poor case for insisting on better conditions in other countries.
In the past there has been a tendency on the part of Government supporters to deplore the policy of subsidies, and I find that in the Resolution now before us the word is not mentioned. We have to countenance the possibility of a payment for two years of £1,750,000 a year, although according to the interjections it may possibly exceed that figure in any one year. I do not know whether if the total is swelled in the second year we shall be able to exceed the £1,750,000 in the next year. However, these payments are to be called repayable advances, and the hope is that the price of home milk products will be sufficiently raised, by artificial means, to enable repayment to be made. To my mind the position in two years from now, so far as these repayable advances are concerned, or what I may call a subsidy, will be such as to enable farming cheese makers not only to make a profit but sufficient to enable them to make a repayment of the loan; and this will certainly be done by an increase in prices to the consumer. Again, on the question of imports, I cannot see how that can be done unless there is recourse to a policy of a restriction of imports which does not confine itself to foreign countries but extends to Empire sources as well. This is all because the people of this country are not getting the wherewithal to buy the milk which is essential to keep them in a fit bodily condition. The winter surplus is about 20 per cent. of the total milk under contract. During this summer it will be about 40 per cent., and from another source I am informed that it may be 50 per cent.
May I deal with the 5d. and 6d., and make this one point with regard to the computations which take place. They are based upon the average of two prices, the price of New Zealand cheese and the price of Canadian cheese. I am informed

417
that Canadian cheese is from 12s. to 14s. above that of New Zealand cheese, and also that the imports of Canadian cheese are very much below the imports of New Zealand cheese, that is in quantity. Therefore, I ask whether any consideration was given—I am not making any point about it—to the weighted average instead of the straight average, because of the difference in the amount coming from New Zealand as against that coming from Canada and the higher price obtained for the smaller quantity. As regards quality, everyone will agree that it is of tremendous importance. Public confidence will react if the quality is made better, but I wonder whether it is right to ask the taxpayer of the country to foot the bill. We have milk producers giving low quality milk and others giving high quality milk, and as far as I can ascertain they are all receiving the same price. I should like to know what methods are going to be taken to see that proper standards are complied with. I should be much more in line with the desire expressed in the report dealing with the question of the grading of milk, which was—
"No liquid milk should be sold which does not attain a fixed standard of cleanliness."
I do not know whether the taxpayer should be required to pay for cleanliness. There are farmers, indeed whole districts, producing a good standard of milk without having directed to them special payments for the purpose, and I should like to know whether it is the intention to pay bonuses as one of the means of obtaining the desirable object of a better quality of milk. The Minister of Agriculture has already stated that many other countries are facing this problem with success, and perhaps when he comes to reply we may be told how these countries have coped with the problem of the purity of milk and whether it was by means of bonuses or not. In connection with publicity a sum of £500,000 a year is to be directed. The Resolution is drawn rather wide and we do not know what the board may be able to do in the name of publicity. It may of course advertise its product through its product, but I think part of it will be directed to the schools. On this point the Minister of Agriculture was hesitant to-day and rahtre overcritical of the claims made by
418
the hon. Member for Don Valley, which, however, have been more than supported by the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg). I was wondering why any hesitation was displayed by the right hon. Gentleman. May I remind him of the speech he made at Truro on 23rd February of this year, in which he said:
"Unquestionably the provision" of milk for school children at cheap rates would have far-reaching effects on public health, unquestionably the milk in schools movement offers a most promising field for the development of liquid milk consumption and the alleviation of the surplus milk difficulties of the dairy industry."
I hope that the Minister of Agriculture intends to stand by that statement, but I was a little doubtful when I saw his attitude towards the hon. Member for the Don Valley. Let me say a word in regard to paragraph (7), which deals with the extension of the functions of the board. It is very indefinite, and I should like a little more detail as to what these extensions may be. Do they mean the erection and control of centralised factories throughout the country and, if so, what relationship will they have to factories already functioning and producing the necessary products I Paragraph (8) deals with advertisements and descriptions. The words are:
"to provide for regulating the manner in which milk is described for the purposes of advertisement and sale."
I agree that if this censorship, as it might be called, is going to prevent the introduction into newspapers and other journals of misleading advertisements referring to the quantity of milk contained in some given product, a matter which requires to be very carefully investigated, it is all to the good, but if it is to be some form of control over the manner in which milk is described for the purposes of advertisement and sale, the board may be inclined to get into controversial issues. Reference has already been made to a question which has not yet been settled as between raw and pasteurised milk. If it is going to allow the board to take up an attitude as between raw and pasteurised milk before the matter has been properly settled, it will contain elements of danger which will require and should receive detailed attention in the future. To my mind the position was properly stated by the hon. Member for Altrincham

419
when he said that he does not see much chance of repayment. This is a subsidy. The first subsidy was given in the case of bacon, now we have a subsidy for milk, and I suppose we are going to have a subsidy in regard to sugar. What is it to be next? I put it again to the Committee that if a subsidy is the only way of dealing with this matter, if the taxpayer and the consumer have to pay, then they have a right to some degree of control. This control must either be in the form of public control and management or an integral part of the duty of the board which is in charge of this scheme. Until such time as that is done, my hon. Friends and I will have to continue the opposition to this proposal which has been indicated.
6.30 p.m.
Mr. OSWALD LEWIS: I suppose most Members of this Committee regard with the greatest sympathy the strenuous efforts which the Minister is making to restore prosperity to different sections of agriculture in turn. It is a task from which a man less bold might easily have shrunk. I, for one, certainly wish him "God-speed" in it, but when any Minister comes to the House of Commons and asks that money should be voted by way of a subsidy or by way of advances the repayment of which is very problematical, we as Members of this Committee have a double duty to perform. We have to consider not only the effect of these payments upon the industry which they are designed to benefit, but also the burden which is cast thereby upon the community as a whole. I want to examine the proposals outlined in this Resolution from those two points of view.
As I understand it the Minister's case for the Resolution may be summarised in this way—that the marketing scheme is endangered by the present large surplus and the prospect of a future even larger surplus of milk supplies over the amount required for liquid consumption; that most of that surplus is used to make cheese or butter and that the prices of those commodities are depressed chiefly owing to importation at low prices from abroad. I think the Minister might have made some reference to the fact that dairy farmers in this case have a distinct grievance because many of them were induced to join and help to work the
420
marketing scheme on the distinct understanding that effective measures would be taken to control those imports—which from one cause or another has not yen been done. The Minister reminds us than under the Ottawa Agreements free entry is accorded to cheese and butter from the Dominions up to November, 1935, and, that being the situation, he proposes, I understand, to deal with it by guaranteeing a standard price for cheese-milk, over two years, at 5d. in the summer and 6d. in the winter. He hopes to accomplish that purpose by making advances of an uncertain but undoubtedly large total amount, which may or may not be repaid. The repayment in any case will depend upon a substantial advance in the cheese-milk price and the maintenance of that advance during the two years ending in April, 1938.
The Minister also tells us that to increase the probability of this better cheese-milk price, on which repayment depends, he proposes to make a great effort to increase the consumption of liquid milk and so reduce the surplus for manufacturing purposes. In order to do this he brings forward a proposal to spend £750,000 over four years on improving the purity of the herds and £1,000,000 over two years in increasing the demand for liquid milk. The first criticism which I have to offer is this. I cannot help thinking that it would be advisable if the period of the advances were limited to 12 months. That would have the effect of retaining much more effective control of the scheme in the House of Commons. I do not know if any Members of the Committee have noticed the words of the Memorandum on the Financial Resolution—Cmd. Paper 4597—with regard to this matter. On page 3 it is stated:
"The advances from the Exchequer are estimated to amount to from £1½ to £1¾ million in the first year. In the second year the advances will be of a similar order but an accurate forecast cannot be given."
The Minister went even further in his speech, and made the somewhat surprising statement that in his opinion it was not necessary to make a forecast for the second year. In amplification of that statement he said he would be in a better position at the end of the first year to know what was required for the second year. No doubt that is true but surely it is trying this Committee rather

421
highly to say to them, "We want you to authorise the spending of a certain approximate amount this year and the spending of a lot more next year, but we shall not know until the end of this year the amount which we now ask you to give us authority to spend next year." It would be preferable if the Minister had to come again to the House of Commons in a year's time for the supply necessary to make the advances in the second year. I am aware that one criticism which will be used against that argument is that owing to the incidence of the Ottawa Agreements the position will not materially change in 12 months because those Agreements do not run out until November, 1935. But I venture to remind the Committee that the Dominions, though very important sources of the supply of milk products to this country, are not the only sources of that supply and I cannot help thinking that more might have been done in the meantime by way of restriction of supplies of milk products from foreign sources. I heard with some astonishment an observation on that point by the hon. and gallant Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg). He said that in his view the Government had done all they could by way of restriction of imports. If that be his view to-day, it would appear that he has receded some way from the view set out by the Commission of which he was chairman. The Reorganisation Commission for Milk make this observation on page 137 of their report:
"We consider that, in so far as protection is to be afforded to the home dairy industry, cream is the product which should claim first attention. In our opinion, a much higher duty than the present might be imposed on all supplies of fresh and sterilised cream and it might even be considered whether the duty should not be prohibitive."
The Government do not seem to have adopted that recommendation.
Sir E. GRIGG: I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that I had to cover a wide range of subjects, and I specially said that I thought the industry could be helped inside the liquid milk market and the market for fresh cream and the market for farm-made cheese. I made those exceptions, and I do not recede from anything in the report of the Commission.
Mr. LEWIS: I took it that the hon. Member said that in his view the Government had done all they could by way of restriction of imports. Of course, if he makes reservations of that kind one can understand his attitude, but his statement surprised me at the time. A good many of us think that more might be done in the direction of limiting these foreign supplies and that, to my mind, is an additional argument for limiting the period of the advance to 12 months. During that 12 months the Government could see whether further steps might not be taken in that direction.
I do not know what reasoning has led the Government to fix upon the particular figure in the price above which repayment of these advances is to be made. I listened intently to the Minister's speech, and if he made any reference to the subject, it escaped me. I would ask him later in the Debate to tell us why these advances are not to be repayable in the event of the price for milk during the two years ending April, 1938, reaching the standard price. Why does he go one penny beyond that price before requiring that any repayment is to be made? These advances are held out to the Committee as not being a subsidy in the ordinary sense. We are invited to expect the return of the money. The repayment is always problematical. It is severely limited in point of time to two years for reasons which the Minister gave and it seems to me that we are making it additionally improbable if it is to depend on the turn of a penny in the price. I hope the Minister will give us some explanation of how that figure was arrived at and why. With regard to the encouragement of the consumption of liquid milk the Government have more than once announced that such encouragement is their policy. In the statement of milk policy issued by the Minister in Cmd. Paper 4519, we read, on page 2:
"The expansion of the liquid milk consumption of the country would not only be of the greatest benefit from the public health point of view but would alleviate in the most satisfactory way the difficulty of surplus milk."
I submit that that statement, standing alone, is not quite true. There is a qualification which does not appear in that statement. It is this—provided that the increase in supply does not keep pace with the increase in demand. We have

423
heard nothing of any precaution in that respect. I think it a great pity that it has not been found possible to follow in this respect the admirable precedent of the Wheat Act. In that Act it was a condition that if more than a certain quantity of wheat was produced only a proportion of it could claim the benefit of the guaranteed price. As a result of that and the other excellent arrangements under that Act we see from the latest report that the wheat growers have received a price about 80 per cent. above the price which they would otherwise have received. This has been accomplished at a negligible cost to the consumer and imposes no burden upon State funds at all. I would like to see something of that kind attempted in the case of milk.
I regard it as a cardinal point that, if anything of this kind is being done, there should be some limit on the amount of production which is to rank for the benefit of the standard price. The only possible hope that I can see in that direction, under the Government's proposals, is the somewhat indirect one that, if an endeavour is made to clean up the herds of the country, in the course of that effort a certain number of cows will be eliminated. To that extent you will diminish the source of supply. As against that, as the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) has clearly pointed out, are the constantly improved methods of production resulting in a higher yield per cow. As far as I can see, the inducements held out in the Resolution are calculated rather to increase the supply of milk which will come forward to benefit by the standard price than to diminish it. That, in my view, is a serious difficulty in the ultimate success of the scheme. In regard to the question of the methods to be pursued to secure an improvement in the health of the herds, we have not heard very much from the Government about what is proposed. I suppose that they want, quite naturally, somewhat of a free hand in the matter, but it would be interesting to know whether, broadly speaking, the idea is to provide financial inducements to the owners of individual herds to make them disease-free.
I can imagine very strong arguments that might be brought forward in favour of the ultimate benefit to the country of
424
such a course, but at the same time I cannot help wondering what will happen at the end of the four years. The hon. Member for Altrincham used the expression "the after effect of a stimulus." That is a fair parallel. The Government must have some idea in their own minds, and the Minister might take us into his confidence a little and say whether they have in mind a water-tight system which will last just for four years, and not require to be continued, or whether, when they talk of four years, they really mean 40 years and propose that they and following Governments should come to the House for a continuance of these payments. These are matters which will eventually affect the public purse of which we in this Committee are the ultimate guardians. The hon. Member for Don Valley was rather scornful about the amount to be devoted for this purpose. After all, the Minister might, in justification, say that he is making a beginning, and that if it is only £750,000 it is still that amount more than any Labour Government ever devoted to the same purpose.
With regard to the question of advertising a product by offering the product, in other words, by trying to increase the demand for liquid milk by supplying quantities at low prices or free of cost to certain sections of the community, a difficult problem is raised on the medical side of the question. Hon. Members may have noticed that I have one or two Amendment on the Order Paper, but I do not propose to delay the proceeding by moving them. The last one makes a suggestion as to the qualifications which should be required before public money can be used for the distribution of milk below cost, qualifications, that is to say, as to the condition of the milk. It is a thorny problem on which doctors disagree very violently as to what is the best treatment for milk, whether it should be pasteurised, or what the respective risks and merits of a greater consumption of raw milk by the population may be. I feel that I am inadequately equipped to enter into the details of that controversy, but I think we might put this point to the Minister. It is clearly undesirable indiscriminately to increase consumption of raw milk regardless of the possibility of spreading disease. Obviously, some qualification is required, and I think it might assist

425
matters at a later stage if someone on behalf of the Government could assure us that they have in mind some definite qualifications to be laid down with regard to the raw milk to be supplied to schools or other purposes which are to be made possible under the Resolution, qualifications which are to be carried out before that milk can be so supplied. In conclusion, I want respectfully to wish the Minister the best of luck with his proposals, but at the same time I would advise the Chancellor of the Exchequer to keep a close eye on him.
6.51 p.m.
Sir F. ACLAND: The more I read this Financial Resolution the more envious I am of its ingenuity. One can speak of the first two paragraphs in two very different senses, and I have already seen them spoken of in two different ways. Those who wish to show what great things the Government are doing for the industry talk of this as a grant to help the milk industry. Those who are anxious to show how careful the Government are of the national finances talk about this proposal as a loan. Either word is equally applicable or inapplicable as one likes, but, looking at it from the point of view of it being intended to be a loan, there is something I would like to say on the financial principle. It is a habit, which, I hope, these marketing boards will not be encouraged to get into, to come to this House when they want to borrow money. This, of course, does not apply to farmers only, who are just as human as other people and no more covetous, but inevitably when people borrow from the Government they regard the loan, not as something they must automatically repay, but as something which they must automatically try to get out of repaying if they can.
People have different standards in money relationships when it is a question of the State and when it is a question of a private individual or an ordinary corporation. We all remember during the War how men used to come home who would never have dreamt of taking a mutton chop out of a shop, but who boasted of having scrounged, or wangled, or annexed something and posed as almost great heroes for having done it because it was merely Government property which belonged to everybody and was therefore fair game. One cannot
426
help feeling that if we are to lend money to these boards we cannot preserve our attitude of detachment from them and their operations quite as much as we have been doing lately. Whenever anyone suggests that the board does anything wrong and asks that it should be put right, the Minister inevitably replies that these boards really have very little to do with the Government as they are set up by the farming community, and the Government have no say as to their operations, and that things are wholly within the board's own control. Some of my hon. Friends recently were interested in the salaries, alleged by some people to be unduly high, paid to the officials of the Milk Marketing Board. If people can do that work efficiently, they are worthy of considerable salaries, and my fear is that no salaries will be sufficient to get people to do the work which is to be done by these marketing boards. That information in regard to salaries was refused because we were told that the board is nothing to do with the Government, but that it is the farmers' own concern.
Do not lend money to boards of that kind, because, once you begin to lend, the claim for control over the operations of a board is bound to grow up. In general, on the point of loans to these boards, the principle is surely right that if bodies of this kind require money, and if their security is good enough, they ought to go to the open market and get it, like a big corporation has to do, from the Public Works Loan Board or something of that kind. They can get their money very cheaply. If they cannot get their money in that way because their security is not good enough it ought not to be for the Government, the State and the taxpayer to advance the money.
Mr. ELLIOT: Does the right hon. Gentleman approve of steps being taken to improve the milk position at the present time?
Sir F. ACLAND: I am only putting in a caveat against a habit which I do not want to grow, because this is the second time that a proposal to lend money to a marketing board has come before us. I am putting in a caveat against the general policy of doing that. The present instance, of course, is a hybrid; it is a sort of mixture between a grant,

427
a loan and a subsidy, and I admit it would not have been possible for the Milk Marketing Board to go to the money market with any scheme of this kind, for no outside body would have lent a penny on the security which is held out in paragraph (2) of the Resolution.
While I am on financial principles, let me make another point. I do not like passing a Financial Resolution which gives the House no definite idea of the liability it is incurring. I remember in years gone by how a very honoured and respected authority on the financial procedure in the House of Commons—Sir Frederick Banbury—used to make the point time and time again that in all Financial Resolutions there should be a limit. He would not have been satisfied, and quite rightly, with the Minister saying, "I think it will be £1,750,000 for the first year, and it may be the same or something like it for the second." He would have said, and all the other financially-minded Members would have agreed with him, that it was better to put in some definite figure like a maximum of £4,000,000 so that we would know where we were, and so that if that sum were exceeded the Government could come back and ask for more.
It is not sound finance to grant money of an unknown amount and not to be told what the liability will be. Some maximum ought to be stated. It is perhaps merely a matter of meticulous financial susceptibility for me to ask the Government to put in a figure on the Report stage of £4,000,000, or whatever sum they like, so that at any rate we shall know where we are likely to be. There is not, when one looks into it, much chance of any of this money being repaid. The arrangements under paragraphs (1) and (2) surely make that clear, and I think it is difficult to understand why the proposal has been made in the form in which it has been. You state that for two years certain grants may be possible. So far as we can tell the money we shall have to pay will be quite as much in the second year as in the first. Then we are told that for two years after that and during those two years only the money is to be paid back again, not if the price continues as it was, but if the price goes up one penny higher. That is right and natural if
428
there is some real prospect of cheese prices from New Zealand changing at the end of two years. It would be right if there were a reasonable expectation of a change in your subsidy to ask the House to regard this as a loan.
The point I want to make is that the Government have not put before us any reason to expect any change of policy en their part, or on the part of the milk industry of New Zealand, which is likely to make any of this money repayable at all. It would be straighter and better and more natural for the Government to keep out the very shadowy proposals with regard to readjustments and to say: "We look to get a subsidy of a possible total of £4,000,000 for the two years," and to make it clear on that basis. We know quite well why these cheese prices at present are so low. It is because of the Ottawa Agreement, and because the milk industry of New Zealand gets a subsidy for dairy products. Our effort so far as the Government are concerned will stop in two years' time. The Ottawa Agreement will have expired by then. The Minister was perfectly right in making it clear that he did not intend during the currency of the agreements to interfere with them, but will he put up with a different basis when they have expired, or will he do what we on these benches would like to do, penalise subsidised products which come here, whether from foreign countries or the Dominions, either by total exclusion or by countervailing duties? If that is the policy of the Government as soon as they are made free, by the Ottawa Agreement coming to an end, then it is sensible and right and a natural provision to suggest that this loan should be repaid; but, if nothing of that kind is going to be done, it seems to me almost a farce to put in paragraph (2) of the Resolution at all, and to encourage us to think that this money will ever come back.
Captain CROOKSHANK: Do I understand that the Liberal party now agree that subsidised imports should be totally prohibited?
Sir F. ACLAND: My hon. and gallant Friend is not up to date. We have always taken the view—either by a countervailing duty, or totally prohibiting subsidised imports. That has been a part of our policy.
Captain CROOKSHANK: It has been kept in the background.
Mr. ELLIOT: Do I also understand that the right hon. Gentleman extends this exclusion to any country with a depreciated currency?
Sir F. ACLAND: That is a different matter entirely. It is difficult to deal with currencies in the same way, as experience has shown when that was done against Germany. It was suggested two years ago, and I believe we supported the measures taken by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). In regard to subsidised products, we have always said it is perfectly legitimate to stop them in the way I have indicated. The question which must be in the minds of hon. Members is really this; granted that there is a serious temporary emergency, is it necessary in order to meet that emergency, to make these proposals in the way that they are put before us to-day? If you meet an emergency by something which is to last for two years, you are turning that emergency into a habit. There is this emergency during the present summer season. I can imagine that it is right to help things during this summer glut of milk. I can equally imagine that, although the emergency is very much less in the winter months, as was shown by the fact that the Milk Marketing Board, on the whole, made a considerable success of their operations during the first six months after they came into existence, it would be natural enough to prolong your subsidy over the succeeding six months of winter. But if you not only pay the industry for this summer and the following winter, but do it again for next summer and next winter, there is really nothing to prevent the industry saying: "Why on earth should you not go on with this indefinitely?" Emergencies ought to be regarded as emergencies, and it is wrong to prolong them into habits, and bad habits from the point of view of getting committed to a permanent subsidy.
The publication of the report of the Economic Advisory Council puts the matter in a new light and ought to encourage the Government to change the basis of the policy which is put before us in this Financial Resolution. I have been making as good use as I can of my time in reading that report, and I wish it had given clearer and tighter consideration to
430
the administrative and financial aspects of its recommendations. At any rate, the report does concentrate on one thing, the practicability and desirability of the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. They say that that is possible and that it ought to be done. I have on it just two short comments to make. First, I do not see how you could do it as long as you allow to be sold, as the report proposes to be allowed to be sold, milk uncertified, to use the report's title—that is, milk cleaner than it has to be now, but not derived from tubercular-free herds. As long as you allow that sort of milk to be sold for human consumption, it will be sold, and you will not clean up your herds. With regard to that, I suppose the Committee would say: "One step at a time. Let us see how far we can get by offering a higher price for clean milk and by giving inducement to clean up the herds. Let us not anticipate the prohibition of the sale for human consumption of milk that is not tubercular-free." But if these recommendations mean anything at all, they mean that some time—I do not know when; it may take 10 years—you have got to make it illegal to sell tubercular-infected milk for human consumption.
The second point is this: I believe that there is more of a chance of immunising herds by inoculation than one would conclude from what has been put before us in this report. I have been for my sins very much in the hands of doctors who deal with inoculation, and I believe I can help the Government advisers to the services of a man who has, perhaps, worked on this more than anyone else. In spite of my cross-examining of him every day I go to see him, he is perfectly certain that by two simple inoculations of young calves he can render them immune from tubercular infection for the rest of their ordinary lives. That side of it, the side of research on immunisation by inoculation, is surely a matter which ought now to be taken up with the very greatest activity.
In view of the possibility which this report brings before us of cleaning up herds, the Government's proposal in this Financial Resolution seems to be out of perspective. First, there is an indefinite subsidy, up to £4,000,000 or so, as we know, to help the price of milk. That is the lack of balance I want to bring out. Three quarters of a million spread over

431
four years, less than £200,000 a year, is to be spent on cleaning up the herds and £1,000,000 a year in advertising the pro-duet by increasing the demand for milk. Surely it is a sound principle of advertising that it you have not got a good article advertise it and hope for the best, but if you have got a good article, or if you can make it a good article, make it good first and advertise second. I should have thought that in view of the possibility of really cleaning up our herds, as recommended in this report, the Government ought to concentrate on getting the article good first and then advertising it.
Those who have spoken about the question of milk for schools are perfectly right. I would rather delay that until we have a certainty of a tubercular-free and wholly sound supply for the schools. The policy of spending five times as much on advertising as you are on cleaning up must be wrong, because you are liable to waste your advertising if you are advertising an article which really is not sound and free from the possibilities of tubercular infection. The right line would be not to let the subsidy, or loan, which the Government propose to give to become so much established as it will inevitably be in the two-year period. Let us tide over the emergency of this summer and next winter, and then see where we are. Let us put all our power behind the policy of cleaning up the herds and then, when we have really made progress with that, let us concentrate on the advertising side of the campaign.
Here I want to say just a word in conclusion about the side of this proposal dealing with milk in the school. I am proud to have my name associated with those of others as backing up the policy known as the Children's Minimum, which in this connection asks that milk should be provided free to all elementary school children and for necessitous children under five, and for expectant and nursing mothers. I am not going to try and make out the case for it because I think it will probably be made out better by other people.
Sir F. FREMANTLE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, does he qualify support of the Bill by saying we should wait until clean herds have been obtained?
Sir F. ACLAND: I am very much afraid, if you rush into this proposal of distributing milk to schools, that you will get some medical officer saying that some child has acquired tuberculosis from milk. That will be a fearful handicap and do away with all the good of the advertising and pasteurisation of milk, which undoubtedly can be done and will be done. I think it is much the best way of advertising your milk and establishing the milk habit. I am very much afraid of the attempt to establish the milk habit going wrong, if the milk is not made absolutely clean and tubercular-free. I would rather put it off for a year, or two years, until you could be certain of an adequate supply of really tubercular-free milk.
The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): Does the right hon. Gentleman apply the same principle to the supply of milk to children in their own homes?
Sir F. ACLAND: Oh, no; I am one of those who think that on the whole we do a great deal more good by getting more milk drunk than by saying that nobody should ever drink milk which has not been approved by all the medical authorities in the country. I think many medical officers of health very much overdo their pursuit of pasteurisation and so on. I believe there is very little pasteurisation which is really foolproof. Pasteurisation is a very critical physical condition, and, as far as I know, no one has laid down the exact conditions for it. I am glad to see among the recommendations one that all apparatus to be used for pasteurisation should be approved by the National Physical Laboratory. It is one thing to say, as I do, that I believe we do more good on the whole by having more milk consumed, even though we are not quite sure about all that milk, and another thing to bring milk into schools as part of a Government campaign if some medical officer is in a position to report against that milk, because all the good done by popularising milk as by far the best human food—as it is—would then be undone. But for this report I would have said, "Go ahead with more milk and risk it," but, in view of the possibilities contained in this report, I say that if we cannot be really sure of the supply we ought to delay the

433
"boost" to the schools until we can be certain that we have a product which will stand "boosting." I had not finished my speech, but I see that a number of other hon. Members wish to take part in the Debate and, therefore, I will not stand any longer between them and the Committee.
7.17 p.m.
Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: I am sure the Committee must have listened with surprise to the speech of the right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland). It was an exposition of the laissez faire school at its best, or at its worst, a cry of "Put off to to-morrow what ought to be done to-day." Another surprising passage in the right hon. Gentleman's speech was that which explained how the Liberal party which sits with my right hon. Friend would deal with the question of imports into this country. I heard with some surprise that it is part of the Liberal faith that if imports should reach these shores from some foreign country or even, I think, from some Dominion, which were subsidised or the subject of export bounties or had come with State-assisted shipping, they would be definitely excluded from these shores. I think goods from countries with a depreciated currency did not come under the ban, or at any rate that point was left open to doubt. I welcome this announcement, because the burden of my few remarks will be to ask the Government to take steps very much on those lines. Before I come to that point, however, I would like to say a word on the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg). With the first part of his speech, which dealt with the Milk Marketing Board, I found myself in entire agreement. He gave it as his opinion, an opinion which must carry great weight not only in this Committee but outside, that the Milk Marketing Board was worthy of the support of all milk producers in this country. The more often that is stated the better. If the operations of the Milk Marketing Board were to cease there would be a complete collapse of the milk industry. Therefore, I welcome the opportunity of supporting that part of his speech, though later I shall differ from him just as wholeheartedly regarding another part of his speech.
434
I turn now to the proposals of the Government to deal with the serious situation in the milk industry. I am certain those proposals will be welcomed not only by the milk industry but by agriculturists generally, because no branch of the tree of agriculture can wilt or fade without the tree as a whole suffering. I would call the proposals of the Government the policy of the three Ps. First, steps are taken to deal with the plurality of our milk supplies, secondly with their purity, and thirdly with publicity for milk. I selected the word "plurality" designedly because it is not sufficiently realised that there is no glut or surplus of home-produced milk on the home market. The home market is more than large enough to absorb every gallon of home-produced milk, either in its liquid form or in the form of butter or cheese or some other processed product. It is the plurality of milk in our markets which has created the present difficult and grave situation. For the truth of that statement I have only to turn to a speech made by the Minister of Agriculture in this House on 22nd February. After stating that the surplus in the winter months would be in the neighbourhood of 20 per cent. and in the summer months 40 per cent. he went on:
"This surplus milk has to find a market in manufactured form, chiefly as butter and cheese."
I do not think I make a wild statement when I say that the butter-making industry in England is already dead—dead entirely. Then my right hon. Friend went on to say:
"Prices of butter and cheese are at very low levels, owing to exceptionally heavy imports and present market conditions generally."—[Official Report, 22nd February, 1934; col. 501, Vol. 286.]
That is a statement on behalf of the Government that this situation has been brought about by exceptionally heavy imports. If that is so, and our own butter industry is destroyed, surely we ought to look around to see whether we are taking all the steps that are open to us to deal with such a grave situation. We know that the per capita consumption of milk in this country is not as high as in some other countries, but while that is a contributory cause of the present situation the real explanation for it is to be found in the fact that the surplus of milk and milk products in

435
our own home market is excluding that portion produced at home. The Government propose to meet this situation by a subsidy. It is welcome and it is necessary in the circumstances, but I think the Committee ought to inquire whether the subsidy is to be given in the best way and will be adequate to the situation. I rather think that the grant of a subsidy is a contradiction in view of the statement of my right hon. Friend on 22nd February, because a subsidy will do nothing to deal with superfluous imports.
As regards imports being abnormal, I will give a few figures which will provide a comparison between 1933 and 1928. In 1928 just over 6,000,000 cwts. of butter were imported into this country, and in 1933 just under 9,000,000 cwts. In five years there was an increase of nearly 50 per cent. in butter imports. Do we wonder that our butter industry is dead? The population has not increased by 50 per cent., but the butter has gone into consumption, and that must mean that some producer has fallen out of business. It is the home producer who has fallen out of business. He has been displaced by this abnormal increase of imports. One may take the analogy of a sponge. When dry a sponge is capable of absorbing a large amount of moisture, but there comes a saturation point, and our capacity for consuming milk in all its forms appears to have reached saturation point. There is only one way by which one can make the sponge take up more liquid, and that is by squeezing a portion of it, and I suggest that the part of the sponge that has been squeezed is the home producer, who has been squeezed out of business. Therefore, my first criticism is that the Government's method of tackling this situation is not adequate, however welcome the subsidy is and however necessary it is.
My right hon. Friend mentioned in his speech to-day that we are taking, I think he said, 90 per cent. of the dairy products of Australia and 100 per cent. of the dairy products of New Zealand. In the year 1928 we were equally taking 90 per cent. and 100 per cent. of the produce of those two Dominions, but the imports from those Dominions in 1933 as compared with 1928 have gone up immensely. The 100 per cent. is now 200 per cent. in rela-
436
tion to 1928. For instance, Australia sent us butter to the extent of 872,000 cwts. in 1928, but last year the total had gone up to 1,693,000 cwts. Therefore, they had doubled their butter supplies to this country in five years. New Zealand in 1928 sent us 1,223,000 cwts. and in 1933 the figure was 2,512,000 cwts., almost double the quantity. Therefore, when the right hon. Gentleman says that we take 100 per cent. and 90 per cent. respectively of the dairy produce of those two Dominions, I ask him: "What is the measure by which that percentage is gauged. Are we to go on and in another five years' time to take double the quantity of that which we are receiving at this moment from the Dominions?" If so, there will be nothing left of the milk industry in this country.
I agree with my right hon. Friend when he says that this country intends to honour the Ottawa Agreements, to which we have set our hands. Of course, we shall honour them in the letter and in the spirit, but I must ask him to keep before him the significance of the figures which I have quoted. While we are perfectly willing to take 100 per cent. of the imports of any given Dominion at this moment there must be a limit to which the 100 per cent. may grow in the future, if we are to have any regard for our own home production.
Sir E. GRIGG: Would the hon. and gallant Member apply the same conditions to the imports of our manufactures to the Dominions? Are they never to increase?
Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: I think the hon. Member will agree that our manufactures imported into the Dominions have not increased to one-tenth the extent that the figures which I have just quoted have increased. If it were on a fifty-fifty basis, or if the whole thing were absolutely equal, it might be a question then for high Government policy as to what particular industries we should limit in this country and what industry should be limited in the Dominions.
Sir E. GRIGG indicated dissent.
Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: The hon. Member shakes his head. I would ask him to deny the statement that I have made. Does he suggest, with the vast increase in the imports of dairy produce

437
from the Dominions, that we have increased in those five years our exports of manufactured goods in a similar degree. I have challenged the hon. Member and I do not think that he is able to reply.
Sir E. GRIGG: Now that the hon. and gallant Member has said that, I must reply. I understood him to say that in future we ought to say that Dominion imports are not to increase by more than a given amount. I asked him whether he was prepared to accept the same limitation in regard to the imports of our manufacturers into the Dominions?
Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: That is no answer to my challenge. I ask my hon. Friend quite definitely whether he is prepared to say in the face of these vast increases in the imports of dairy produce from the Dominions, that there are comparable increases in the exports of our manufactured goods to the Dominions.
Sir E. GRIGG: The hon. and gallant Member challenges me on a subject to which I have not referred, and I do not intend to take up the challenge.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: Now that my hon. and gallant Friend has given us the figures of imports from the Dominions, will he say something of imports from foreign countries?
Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: Certainly, I shall be delighted to do so, if I may trespass further on the time of the Committee. I will give the figures for the Soviet Union and Denmark. In 1928 the butter imports from the Soviet Union were 336,000 cwts., and in the year 1933, 669,000 cwts., an increase of about 70 per cent. Denmark has not increased to that extent but only by about 20 per cent. in the five years. From all countries during the five year period the butter imports increased from 6,000,000 cwts. to just under 9,000,000 cwts., an increase of nearly 50 per cent. I give that as one of the reasons why we are faced with this crisis in our home milk industry to-day.
The price of world butter, especially butter coming to this country, has fallen in a most amazing way. In the year 1928 the butter which the Soviet Union sent
438
to this country was priced at 157s. per cwt., but the butter which the Soviet Union has been sending to us during the first three months of this year has fallen in price to 41s. per cwt., an enormous drop. What is the effect of that drop in price on our milk situation at home? It has already killed our home butter market, it has damaged very much our cheese market, and we are finding ourselves with all this surplus liquid milk upon our hands. We do not know what lies behind this very low price of butter from the Soviet Union, but we know that the State for reasons best known to itself desires to undersell all other countries not only in regard to butter but other products. The result is that not only is our home producer being gravely affected by the low price of butter but our Dominions are also suffering. One of the reasons why the Dominions have almost doubled their dairy imports into this country is that the price has been half what it was, so that both the Dominions and the home farmer is suffering very gravely in consequence. I will not say more on the plurality side of the subject.
I should like to say something on the purity side. I am sure that the proposals of the Government in this respect are welcomed by everybody. It is proposed to provide £750,000 over a period of four years in order to increase the purity of our milk supplies. I find myself in agreement with the right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) when he says that in view of the magnitude of that subject that does not appear to be a very large sum, but nevertheless it is extremely welcome. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) uttered some very profound truths when he drew the attention of the Committee to the costliness of a pure milk supply. Not only is it going to be a costly process to get tubercular-free herds in this country, but the maintenance of a pure milk supply will be costly. One of the reasons why the milk industry is finding itself in a good deal of difficulty and why a price has had to be set for wholesale liquid milk is that the amount attached to the depreciation of milch cows has been appreciated. The normal depreciation of the herds of England is very great and if we shorten the life of a milking cow by even one year, the yearly overhead charges become very much

439
larger than would appear at first sight. Therefore, if we are to enter upon the process of cutting down the herds by any such drastic method as slaughter the; cost will be prohibitive. The encouragement to milk producers to obtain a, higher standard of purity is all to the good, and very welcome.
In regard to publicity it is very necessary that there should be a greater measure of publicity in regard to milk. Here, however, I will enter the caveat that I do not think that any real results will be achieved, even by the most ably conducted publicity campaign, if we allow the cancer of subsidised foreign milk products to continue to grow. I do not believe that in such circumstances a publicity campaign will be successful. I think the Government will be forced into the position of dealing with these foreign milk supplies, which are very largely sent in under subsidised and artificial conditions. The proposal of the Government to make it a condition that part of the money to be spent in connection with the publicity campaign should be devoted to providing school children with milk will be welcomed everywhere. Let us remember that the school children are to get their milk at a reduced price, I presume at or below the manufacturing price ruling—I am not clear on that point—but the fact that the milk will be consumed, while all to the good, will not materially help what we are trying to do, namely, to get a higher average price level for wholesale milk. That statement is not a criticism but merely an observation on a point which ought to be mentioned.
The fact that the Government are so alarmed at the gravity of the situation is a fact which the farming community as a whole will appreciate. They realise that we have a Government who intend to come to the rescue of the great industry of agriculture. As agriculturalists we believe that the Government's purpose in that policy is twofold. They are actuated by high purposes. They realise that this country cannot be restored to complete health unless the great industry of agriculture is restored to health. Further, they recognise that the industry of agriculture alone almost among the great industries of the country is capable of great expansion. Many of our great
440
industries have reached saturation point. We in agriculture are saturated not with our own output but with the output of other countries. I believe that if it can be felt among the agricultural community of this country, as indeed it may be felt, that the Government will not be content and will not rest until they have really restored to the home producer that share of the home market which the home producer has had promised to him, it will give them great satisfaction.
7.46 p.m.
Captain HEILGERS: I find myself in agreement mainly, as regards the Milk Marketing Board, with what was said by the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg). The Milk Marketing Board has rendered a very great service to the producers of this country by finding a market for all their milk. I recollect an experience of my own. Just before the election in 1931, I was told by one of the big distributors in common with all the producers in my neighbourhood, that my milk was no longer required after the expiration of 10 days' notice. I spent some four days in travelling around London and trying to sell my milk, which came from a herd producing high grade milk, a herd which had achieved a fair reputation as a pedigree herd, and yet nobody wanted that milk. Under the milk marketing scheme that has been changed. We have disarmed the big combines and got security for the producer. The Milk Marketing Board cannot be blamed for the position to-day. I do not think the point has been made yet that they have kept up the sales of liquid milk. The Milk Reorganisation Commission estimated that between 607,000,000 and 730,000,000 gallons of liquid milk were the annual need of this country. The Milk Marketing Board sold between 6th October and 31st March 311,000,000 gallons, and usually there is a larger consumption of liquid milk in the summer, so that they look like going very nearly to the amount that was needed in 1931, if not beyond it.
I would emphasise one thing on the subject of imports. I compare the imports for the first three months of this year with the imports for the first three months of 1932, before the Ottawa Agreement, and I find that there has been an increase of 25 per cent. in butter, that alone amounting to 140,000,000 gallons. Without wearying the Committee with all

441
the figures, I would like to say that the net increase was 137,500,000 gallons for the three months. If you work that out, you will find that it totals up to an average of 550,000,000 gallons a year, which is very nearly the total of all the sales of liquid milk in this country, and that has been added to the handicap which the Milk Marketing Board or anyone who might have had control of milk sales in this country has had to face in the narrow space of two years alone. We are still facing troublesome times in beef, and bad beef makes much milk.
Turning to the actual terms of the Resolution, I have heard numerous hon. Members representing industrial constituencies, both this afternoon and previously, making the point that this subsidy given to manufacturing milk would be likely to increase the production of milk. The hon. Member for Altrincham said it amounted to between a farthing and a halfpenny a gallon. I believe that it is nearer a farthing a gallon, and such a very small amount cannot possibly be any inducement to producers to produce more milk in this country. Actually, I believe it is already earmarked by the Milk Board for a purpose advocated by many hon. Members, including the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Colonel Ruggles-Brise), namely, for publicity, less 10 per cent. for research.
Next I come to the paragraph in the report which deals with the question of clean milk. I, as a Grade "A" producer, regard that as the most important provision in the whole of this Resolution. I welcome the fact that the Minister has seen fit to give accredited producers a chance to get a reward for the labours that they have carried on now for some very considerable time. I am sorry the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) has gone out of the House, because I want to put up some ninepins for him to throw down, if he can, later in the Debate. In my opinion, the doctors have done a tremendous amount to kill the production of clean milk in this country, and not only have they done that, but by crabbing the milk supply day in and day out they have succeeded in making it most difficult for the Milk Marketing Board to raise the sales of liquid milk in this country. If only they had gone out and said that milk was definitely slimming, there would have been another tale to tell, but they have
442
plumped for pasteurisation, and imperfect pasteurisation, such as there is today, as is acknowledged in the Economic Advisory Committee report, and so they have played into the hands of the distributors in this country.
The big combines of distributors see in pasteurisation the very chance they want of getting the whole control of the milk supply of this country into their own hands, and, as this report says, dirty milk cannot be made clean by pasteurisation. The report goes on to say that if only the farmer would grasp that fact, he would soon produce cleaner milk. I agree that a pre-pasturisation standard is needed, but you cannot force the farmer to produce cleaner milk unless he gets a reward for so doing. After all, certified milk costs nearly 3d. a gallon extra to produce, and if we are to produce clean milk, we must get more for it, as is advocated in the case of the accredited producers. Another point that I would like to mention as regards pasteurisation is this: Not very long ago I went to Reading, and there I saw a large number of rats being fed on raw milk and on pasteurised milk. At the time I was there the experiment had not been concluded, but they found they could not get rats fed on pasteurised milk to live beyond the second generation, but rats fed on raw milk were still alive and breeding to the fifth and sixth generation.
I feel, with the Minister, that it will be a great thing if we can only clear tuberculosis from this country, but I feel also that the doctors have not given the producers a fair deal as regards the dangers which they have represented as arising from tuberculosis. The odds are 2,200 to one in any year against any child getting tuberculosis, and the mortality rate for measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, and other diseases is much greater. In the countries in Europe where double as much milk is consumed as in this country—and raw milk too—the incidence of tuberculosis is considerably less than it is here.
Finally—the point has already been made to-day—why should we not account for the incidence of bovine tuberculosis in this country as coming from imported butter and cream and even perhaps imported beef. I hope that any hon. Member of the medical profession who may be

443
speaking later in the Debate will reply to my remarks. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) made the statement that it would cost between £25,000,000 and £50,000,000 to eradicate tuberculosis from this country. I think he is absolutely right, and I believe that the only way is to raise a huge loan in this country and tackle it in the right way. I do not believe you can do it piecemeal. Only last week-end, as a matter of fact, the hon. Member for Don Valley and myself were at the University of Wales, where we saw their Grade "A" tuberculin-tested herd, which had been free of tuberculosis for four years, and which had suddenly got 11 reactors, obviously coming from outside. We must tackle the whole question in one fell swoop.
I want briefly to refer to the question of the provision of milk for children. That has met with almost unanimous approval, but it seems to me that it ought to be administered and paid for by the Board of Education. The effect on the children would be just the same, and I cannot help having an uncomfortable feeling at the back of my mind that while this provision will have a tremendous indirect value in future, the actual value to the producer at the present moment may be a minus one. He is going to lose £500,000 on the children who at present are supplied with milk, and he is going to gain a problematical £2,000,000 on the 4,000,000 children who do not get milk to-day. But what is the distributor going to get out of it? Supposing you supply milk at 1s. a gallon to the children, the distributor will make 8d. or 9d. out of that, and the producer will only get what amounts to a manufacturing price for it.
No one is a stronger supporter of milk for children than I am. I was responsible in my own county for experiments on those lines, and I would point this Committee to experiments conducted by Dr. Corry Mann at the Foundling Hospital. He divided his children into seven groups. One group was given a pint of raw fresh milk, and the other six groups were given sugar, casein, watercress, and other forms of nourishing food; and one of the six was given no milk at all. At the end of the year the group which got raw fresh milk increased by 6.98 pounds, and the remaining group, including the
444
one that did not have any milk, increased in bulk by 3.85 pounds; in height the milk group had increased by 2.63 inches and the other group by 1.84 inches. That seems to me very conclusive proof of the value of milk.
There is one other suggestion I would like to make. I believe it is the Milk Marketing Board's intention to try to extend the rate of cheap milk, not only to schools but also to factories, mines, and workshops. I would like to suggest to the Minister that he should institute a national roll on the lines of the King's Roll for ex-service men. If he would get a national roll and make employers, as the hon. Member for Don Valley put it, milk conscious, and stimulate competition to be on the roll, it would do more than anything to encourage the production of milk in this country. If only employers on that roll would undertake to supply the employés with milk at 11 o'clock each morning, there would be an enormous increase in the consumption of liquid milk. Finally, I would respectfully offer my congratulations to the Minister on having the courage and wisdom to bring in the proposals contained in this Resolution. If he succeeds in getting the milk of the country purer and getting the people to realise that milk is a beverage better than any other beverage or commodity in this country, it will do more than anything else towards producing good health, and substituting for a C3 nation an Al nation of which we can be proud.
8.1 p.m.
Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN: Like my hon. Friend who has just sat down, I speak from the point of view of a milk producer who depends on the board for his money for his milk, and who is glad, if the board cannot be helped in any other way, that the Minister is alive to the necessity of keeping it in a position to pay the bill. After all, it is not only the farmers who are concerned, but our milkmen and labourers depend on a fair price for milk. This Resolution, whether we agree with it altogether or not, will give the Milk Board some time to consider the difficult position in which they find themselves. There is to be an election next weak which may or may not enable them to feel that they still represent the majority of producers. At all events, they will

445
hear plenty from those who think they have done badly. Personally, I am in a favoured part of the country. We were told that this scheme would cost us money and we should have to pay more and not come well out of it. Although we expected to lose money, I do not think the Milk Board ought to lose the confidence even of those who were least inclined to vote for the scheme when they came into office. In the six months the board have been in office, there has been a bad summer and they have had to meet an extraordinary situation of importation to this country, as I think will be admitted by the leaders of the co-operative movement.
Although I think it is a pity—and my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) agrees—that this milk scheme was hurried so quickly, and therefore will have to be amended, I do not want to see the same mistake committed again. The board is ready to amend the scheme when it knows what amendments are needed, and I should not like to hurry the board into an amended scheme. Perhaps they will take another year to think it over and bring in what is necessary to amend the scheme. Since they have been in office we have had the report referred to by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) and others, and this may be among the things that will change this scheme. However much we farmers may grumble, no one can deny that we have had some sad experiences. We have never forgotten how we were let down in the Corn Production Act, and it makes us suspicious. Although it is an old saying that you should never look a gift-horse in the mouth, we are inclined to look very carefully. The question on which I should like to be quite sure is what is to happen in two years' time. The advances made to bring the price up to 5d. and 6d. a gallon will not have to be repaid unless the price goes up to that figure in the meantime. There is a certain amount of doubt among those who are willing and anxious to have this £1,000,000 given to school children to know whether at the end of two years milk will be expected to be sold at the price of 1s. or 1s. 0½d. per gallon. I suppose the Board of Education or some other authority at the end of two years will carry on that liability.
While I am somewhat suspicious about these subsidies and repayments of loan,
446
it is important, if the board are going to make plans, to make it clear that, we shall not be treated like the Bacon Board, and have to repay. I also regret we cannot now lay down more of a permanent solution of some of these troubles the board have to face. These schemes would never have come into operation if the farmer had not expected protection against the dumping of foreign products. Even from the point of view of cleaning up the herds of which the report speaks, it is recognised that there is a danger from the health point of view in the imports of milk products. The question of tuberculosis is raised in the report, which says that cheese is not likely to harbour infection if kept in store as the chemical changes destroy the tubercle bacillus. Dried milk is rendered safe by the process of manufacture, but butter, cream, cream cheese and ice cream from raw milk are capable of carrying infection. The hon. Member for Altrincham has particularly mentioned the question of cream, and that is one of the things which ought not to be allowed to come into this country. If we stopped it, it would help us to deal with the surplus milk of this country which even he, as a Free Trader, thinks we might consider. I hope that the board will take notice of this.
When the Marketing Bill was brought in, we voted for it in the belief that we were to get protection against the foreigner, and I am disappointed that Section 2 has not been used more against foreign manufactured products. I do not see any necessity for apologising or going back on our word to the Dominions at Ottawa. I have seen very little effort in Parliament by the Board of Trade or the Government to put Section 2 into effect in dealing with the dumping from Denmark and Holland of milk products which help to make a bigger glut than ever in our markets. I should not like the board to feel, by this bolstering up by subsidies, that they have not got to stand on their own feet. They should have the Government behind them in insisting on putting Section 2 of the Marketing Act into operation whenever unfair foreign competition makes it difficult to sell their goods.
8.12 p.m.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: I was delighted to hear the Minister state that the Ottawa Agreements are to stand, and

447
that there will be no restriction in the imports of dairy products from the Dominions during the duration of this agreement. There has been, undoubtedly, some uneasiness in the Dominions in this matter and that declaration will be received with the greatest pleasure by them. I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Colonel Ruggles-Brise) is not in his place, because he was attacking the Dominions as being the cause of the depression of the market here and antagonistic to the interest of the British farmer. He said, as an example, that products from Australia had doubled in a certain number of years. He omitted to tell the Committee the reason for the increased products. He omitted to say that we have a large amount—I think about £470,000,000—of British money invested in Australia, and the only way in which Australia or any other Dominion in which we have vast sums of British money invested, can pay the interest on the loans and money invested there is by our buying their goods or accepting their services. There is no other possible way in which the Dominions can pay. The prices of the products are halved, and naturally Australia and other Dominions, in order to pay us, have had to increase their exports to us. There is an Empire policy and there are many Members supporting the National Government and presumably supporting the Empire policy, but there are far too many, in my opinion, with all respect to them, who makes speeches continually attacking the Dominions and blaming them for the depression in the agricultural market in this country. I consider that such statements are neither correct nor fair.
With regard to butter, which was mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon, as a matter of fact the total import of butter from British sources in 1933 was 4,584,654 cwts., while from foreign countries it was 4,249,860 cwts. We received from foreign countries very nearly the same amount as we received from British countries. With regard to milk and milk products practically every atom of condensed milk and skimmed milk came from foreign countries, and practically none whatever from the Empire. Hon. Members who are so ready to criticise the Dominions ought, in fairness, to mention the imports from foreign countries, but they generally omit to do
448
so. As the Minister said to-day, the Empire is entirely dependent for some of its products upon our market in this country, because there is no other. If we restrict that market, there is no future for Empire policy. The problem of imports and depression of price to the British farmer has been very much influenced by the import from foreign countries, not necessarily of vast volume. In the case of butter, quite sufficient volume" have been imported at a very low price to have had the result of depressing the whole of the price market in this country. That is an absolute fact, and that is what has killed the price for the British farmers, not the import from the Dominions as is so often stated.
In this matter of restricting foreign imports the Government have not taken all the steps which they should. They ought to take steps to prevent the import of products which depress the price in this country to such an extent that it is entirely uneconomic. If there is to be any prosperity for the farmer, we must not only raise the price to the producer, and that is one essential which is being dealt with as an emergency to-day, but we must increase production and increase the purchasing power of our people, in order to spread over a far wider area than exists to-day, the people who are enabled to buy the products of the British farmer. That is the problem. I do not agree in principle with the restrictive measures which are being taken with regard to agriculture. We presumably desire to rehabilitate agriculture. We must get back on to the land of England as many people as that land will hold, and we must cultivate the land to its utmost, to its full production. That must be our aim. We must increase production, but we must also make it possible for the people of this country to buy the products, and the policy should not be as it is in the case of potatoes, where a man is fined if he has more than a certain acreage under potato crop, but the policy of increased production and distribution.
The restrictions which are the policy of the Government with regard to agriculture are entirely wrong in principle in my opinion. What we have to do is to increase the production of this country to the utmost capacity of the land, to enable people to buy the products and

449
to give a remunerative price to the farmer. There are immense imports from foreign countries, and there are also immense imports from the Empire. There is no room to-day for the full production of this country, the production of the Empire and the production of foreign countries. There is an immense volume of imports from foreign countries which we have the power to restrict and should restrict. That has not been done by the Government. We are told that the Ottawa Agreements are being carried out; that is true so far as the Dominions are concerned, but I would be far more satisfied if the Minister had told Us something about the measures which the Government were going to take with regard to the restriction of imports from foreign countries which directly affect the imports from the Dominions.
Since the Ottawa Agreements we have made various trade agreements with dairy-produce countries, such as Denmark and Sweden, and now we are negotiating with the Netherlands. They are dairy-producing countries who export to this country, and in every instance we have made those agreements to the detriment of the Empire and to the advantage of the foreigner. That is not strictly carrying out the spirit of the Ottawa Agreements. I realise that the trade agreements were made in order that we might sell more coal to those foreign countries, but, so far as our country is concerned as a market for the Dominions, they are diametrically opposed to the advantages to the Empire which were obtained by the Ottawa Agreements. I hope that the Government will take more active measures to restrict foreign imports into our markets, and to develop our own production and the production of the Empire as far as it is possible for us to do so.
Now I would like to deal with the expenditure of £750,000, which is to be spread over four consecutive years with a view to securing as far as practicable that the milk supply for human consumption in Great Britain is pure and free of infection of any disease. Every hon. Member will agree with that object. It is essential that the food placed on the market for the British people to consume should be as pure and as free from disease as possible. That restriction, however, should not only apply to
450
British-produced food, but should apply to foreign-produced food as well. I have in mind a particular article which is imported here, skimmed condensed milk, which is labelled "Unfit for Babies" with a large label on each tin to that effect. It is well known to the right hon. Gentleman I am sure. I entirely sympathise with those who, unfortunately, are too poor to buy expensive food or to buy the best grade of milk; but it is monstrous that this country, which has done so much, and proposes to do more, to insist upon the purity of the food which the British producer shall produce and place on the British market, should allow the import into this country from a foreign country of food which is so low in its food value that it has to be labelled as unfit for babies.
That import ought to be prohibited. It has no right to come into this country at all. While we are expending £750,000 in order to impose upon the British farmer certain restrictions and regulations which will ensure that he is placing on the British market pure food—which of course means food having the largest food value and' raises the cost of the British product—to allow those regulations to be stultified by the import into this country of food which has to be labelled as unfit for babies is monstrous in my opinion, and ought to be stopped. There is no reason for it whatever, and I would like an assurance from the Minister that some steps will be taken to prohibit the import of this absolute trash so far as food value is concerned, because it must be remembered that, although it is labelled as unfit for babies, there is no guarantee whatever that those people who, unfortunately, cannot afford to buy good milk, are not constrained to give this condensed skimmed milk to their babies and do inestimable harm. It cannot be argued that it is cheap. It may be cheap to buy over the counter, but it is extremely dear when you consider that the children who have to drink it are receiving practically no nourishment from it at all, so I hope that the Government will take steps to prohibit the import of this skimmed milk.
Suppose that factories in this country were to start the manufacture of condensed skimmed milk here, what then would be the attitude of the Minister?

451
He is bringing in regulations, and he is going to spend £750,000, in order to get pure food, but supposing that a factory here were to manufacture this condensed skimmed milk, which has no food value at all, I wonder what action the Minister would take. Would its sale be allowed? It would stultify the advantages of the production of pure food under these regulations. I fully realise that it is necessary in the emergency to bring in these regulations in order to save the farmer, but this is only dealing with one small item of the problem, and it will be of no ultimate advantage to the farmer, if it remains by itself and nothing else is done. The real problem for the Government is to tackle the reorganisation of the dairy industry of this country as a whole. As regards marketing and distribution, we have already been told by various hon. Members that there is too large a margin of profit for the distributor. If that be true, something more can be done in reorganisation to make possible a greater distribution of good milk over a larger area of the population.
There is one more point that I should like to make. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) made a really blood-curdling speech so far as the parents of this country are concerned. Any mother reading the speech of the right hon. Gentleman would shun milk as she would shun the Devil; she would never allow any child of hers to drink another drop of British milk again. I protest in all seriousness against speeches of that sort being made. They must do incalculable harm. All the efforts of the Minister will be brought to naught if speeches of that description were to be made up and down the country. Naturally they frighten people, and I hope that when the Minister replies he will be able to reassure us and nullify the very bad effect which that particular speech must have produced, and assure the consuming public that the average supply of milk in this country is perfectly good and sound for them to drink. It is most necessary that more milk should be drunk in the country, especially by children, owing to its great nutritive value, and I hope that the efforts of the Minister in that respect will be crowned with success.
8.32 p.m.
Mr. McKIE: I am sure that, whatever opinion may be passed in the Empire tomorrow about the sentiments which have fallen from various hon. Members who have spoken in this Debate, the speech of the hon. and gallant Member who has just addressed the Committee will be received with universal approbation in all parts of our far-flung Empire. I am very glad, Captain Bourne, to have been able to catch your eye this evening, and to be the first Scottish Member, at all events from a rural constituency, and, incidentally from the largest area under cultivation in Britain, to have the privilege of taking part in this Debate, more especially because my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture alluded in the opening part of his speech this afternoon to the constituency which I have the honour to represent. He drew attention, very rightly, to the terribly low price which the dairy farmers in Galloway had up to a very short time ago been receiving for the milk which they had to offer on the market. I am exceedingly glad to be the humble bearer of congratulations from dairy farmers in all parts of Galloway to the Minister on what his scheme has been able to do for them up to the present. There are among farmers many critics of these schemes, and certainly the milk scheme has not been immune from a great deal of hostile talk, but I am glad to be in the happy position of saying, speaking from a purely selfish point of view, that those whose cause I have the honour to plead have perhaps come off better than arty dairy farmers in any other part of the country.
In all parts of the Committee general satisfaction has been expressed at the emphasis which the Minister this afternoon placed upon the value of advertisement with regard to agriculture in general, and milk products in particular. We all know that it pays to advertise, and on more than one occasion I have taken the liberty of stressing, to those with whom I come in contact in agricultural matters, the value of acting on this line. Agriculturists, and perhaps Scottish agriculturists in particular, have been remarkably reticent with regard to advertising the wares which they have to offer on the market. While I do not wish to bore the Committee, I might perhaps give one instance of what I mean in this

453
connection. A friend of mine who was at a shooting lunch not very long ago, enjoying the particular cheese that was handed round, asked what it was and was told it was Wensleydale. He said, "I have a cheese which I think equally good which comes from my part of the country," but no one had ever heard of it. Wensleydale is really only a glen, it is true, in a great historic English county. Galloway is a great, far-reaching province entirely concerned with livestock raising and with milk production in particular. But our cheese, largely through reticence on the part of our producers, has not the, I will not say world-wide but countrywide reputation that it undoubtedly ought to enjoy.
Having said a word of praise of the Minister, I must go on to make one or two criticisms with regard to what he has told the Committee. I was rather surprised at What he said about the Ottawa Agreements—surprised rather with regard to the way in which he said it. He said "Come what may, the Ottawa Agreement will stand for two years." I do not say this in any carping way, but I hope that does not mean that the Government may fall in two years. Of course, this country stands by the Ottawa Agreements. We always stand by our pledged word. But with regard to these Ottawa Agreements, there are several possibilities in the two years mentioned by my right hon. Friend. Revision is possible, and he has also on more than one occasion said there was ample scope for voluntary restrictions where necessary between the various Dominions which are serious competitors in the home market with regard to agricultural produce. I hope that what he said does not mean that he will not use every loophole to revise the agreements where necessary—and there are many loopholes and many ways in which the agreements ought to be revised for the benefit of our home producers. I hope he will do all he can, in the very tactful way that he possesses, in getting the Dominions to agree to that voluntary restriction about which he has so often spoken in the House and on the platform.
He received an unexpected ally in the hon. Gentleman the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg). The Committee listened with the greatest respect to what the hon. Gentleman had to say. He has done most valuable service to the cause
454
of farming, and dairy production in particular, within the past few years. What he has to say always commands, at all events, respect if it does not always win unanimous approval. He praised the Government, as we are all bound to do, for having in the two and a-half years since they have been confirmed in office undertaken more agricultural legislation and set more schemes afoot than any other Government that has ever presided over the destinies of the country. He went on to refer to the critics of the Government who state that imports coming from foreign sources and from Dominion sources, too, are very prejudicial to the interests of our own producers, and, if I understood him correctly—and I think I did—he denied the value of such suggestions in toto. I wonder if the hon. Gentleman, who represents a division which is very largely agricultural, would go down there, or stand on any platform in the country, and maintain such a statement. If he did, I should be very happy indeed to be in the audience and to listen to him. I think it has been made pretty plain that imports coming in haphazard from foreign sources and, despite what my hon. Friend said, from inside the Empire too, are a very serious handicap and hindrance to our home producers in the great battle that they are fighting. Many of us who endeavour, in the most helpful way, without any wish to carp at the Government, to point out these facts are very often brushed aside, as it seemed my hon. Friend was inclined to brush us aside, with the suggestion that we are merely following out the dictates of Beaverbrook, Rothermere or Mosley. That suggestion is very wide of the mark.
We are being asked to vote a very large sum of money to assist the dairying branch of farming. We are asked to do it in an emergency, to meet a crisis. Of course, we all wish to assist agriculture in every possible way and, in view of what has been said about the great work of the Milk Board, we wish to give those associated with the board every facility for carrying on their good work. But I wonder, and I am sure many Members wonder, if this subsidy is the most direct method of securing what we want. I think it is a very indirect and roundabout way. It is taking two steps and then remaining on the same spot—a step forward

455
and a step back again. You are dipping your hands into the pockets of the taxpayers to provide this £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 to assist the Milk Board to give the home producer an assured price—a bottom in the market, as the Minister calls it—and at the same time you are allowing this flow into the country of agricultural products, and milk products in particular, to continue as before no matter whether they are from foreign sources or from the Dominions or Colonies.
The Minister went on, in outlining his scheme, to talk about the possibility at the end of the two years' period of the board being unable to repay the money, but he said it would be all right. We should be compensated in the cheap prices and the universal prosperity that would ensue. I wonder if the farming community will see matters in that light. I rather doubt it from conversations which I have had with fairly prominent agriculturists in Scotland within the past few weeks and months. Members of the farming community are not a bit interested in the debating points for which we all in this House have a weakness and which we like to score from time to time. They want a direct, vigorous and drastic policy. They only want the statement of governmental policy, which has been made repeatedly since the first Debate on the Address in reply in the Gracious Speech from the Throne in the first Session of this Parliament, to be carried into effect. What is it? First, preference in the home market for the home producer, in the second place preference for the Dominions and Colonies, and in the third place, if space remains, for foreign countries who wish to send their agricultural produce here. That statement has been made over and over again. I remember in the Debate on the Ottawa Agreements the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for the Dominions, being interrupted in the course of his speech and pressed upon this point, declaring with great emphasis at that Box that that was the goal and ambition of the Government, and that by their statement they would stand. I very much hope that the Government are still of that opinion. The farming community hope that they are still of that mind, but they wish to see their good intentions a little more speedily trans-
456
lated into action than they have been since what many of us considered the, in some directions, ill-timed Ottawa Agreements were carried into law.
This afternoon we have heard two speeches from prominent Members of the Liberal party in this House. I see that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Althincham has now re-entered the Chamber. While he was out I took the liberty of commenting upon one or two points in his valuable speech. I think—and I hope that I do not do him an injustice—that his speech this afternoon was conclusive evidence that he has not forgotten his good training in the Free Trade school, but we had other speeches from avowed Free Traders this afternoon. We had the usual negative criticisms poured upon not merely Government ideas and policy, but upon any proposal from any source for dealing in a constructive way with the agricultural problem. Most of those speeches, it is true, went off into side issues compared with the main theme; side issues with regard to the purity of milk in all its branches, etc. When they came back to the main line of attack, the comments that were made were of a purely negative kind, and, I might say, of a destructive character. That is not going to win approval from the farmers or from any practically minded body of men or women. Those who are interested in, and have their living to gain from, agriculture are not concerned about the principle underlying Ottawa, but about the way in which that principle has so far been applied.
This afternoon we are voting £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 of public money to assist the Milk Board to carry on, and are allowing this flow of foreign and Dominion imports coming into the country to the detriment of our home producers to continue as before. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) twitted Conservatives in this House with being a party to undue State interference. I do not think that he can really seriously ask the Committee to believe any such remarks that he made a few hours ago. The Conservative party, it is true, have always stood for the smallest amount of State interference as contrasted with the Liberal party, who have stood for the doctrine of complete laissez-aller and

457
laissez-faire. The Tory party have always insisted that there are times when it is absolutely necessary for the State to intervene and to assist industries and groups of men and women when it can conclusively he proved that it is only by outside assistance that they can work out their salvation.
The Minister of Agriculture in one of his great speeches in this Parliament emphasising the dire position of farming said that it was a time for action—I forget exactly what the Debate was about—and remarked: "You ask for action, here it is." I very much hope—I believe it too—that my right hon. Friend will be as good as his word. If there is to be a Division to-night I shall have no hesitation, because the milk scheme has to be assisted, in supporting this grant with my vote, but I sincerely hope that the Government are going to act upon the lines which they have enunciated so often from that Box and from platforms in all parts of the country, and to see to it that our home producers are assisted by protection from all sources whether it is from the foreigner or from inside the Empire, because the position is so critical that only drastic remedies can be indulged in.
8.53 p.m.
Sir F. FREMANTLE: I want to confine my few remarks to the question of the purity of milk, which is one of the main objects of the Measure which we are discussing this afternoon. I am always asked, as a medical officer of health, not to exaggerate or perhaps not to emphasise the danger of disease arising from milk. But I have to speak not only as a medical officer of health—that I am no longer except in what is called a consultant capacity, which is never consulted—but also as an active and practical dairy farmer with 32 cows and a loss which is carefully calculated for me every year in order that I may really find out the position of affairs, and as president this year of the Central Council of Milk Recording Societies, one of the main features of the progressive side of the dairy industry. No one who knows anything about the subject would wish to exaggerate or intensify the fears of people in regard to infection from milk. Sometimes professional medical men, who may
458
see only one side of the question, may possibly exaggerate the dangers, but, on the other hand, those agriculturists, and there are some hon. Members in this House, who try to belittle the amount of disease which may arise are doing the worst possible injury to the dairy industry. The first thing one learns on entering public life is to size up your enemies and your difficulties, and those who belittle facts which have been clearly demonstrated by professional societies and associations and criticise the finding of a professional body concerned simply with ascertaining the truth in regard to this subject are doing a great dis-service to agriculture. The actual facts are clear. The People's League of Health established a very strong veterinary council and medical science council, and between them they established a combined commission for studying questions relating to milk supply. They reported last year, and in April of this year sent a deputation to the Minister of Health and the Minister of Agriculture. They presented an extremely carefully drawn up statement and proposals, which were emphasised by the report of the Economic Committee of the Privy Council. I will read what they said:
"In the first place the cow suffers from several conditions which serve as a source of disease in man, and among the diseases so conveyed are tuberculosis, undulant fever and septic sore throat. Of these tuberculosis is the most important, and the facts are serious. A very large proportion, at least 40 per cent., of the cows in this country is infected with tuberculosis."
That has not been sufficiently met by those who speak for the dairy industry. It is not only tuberculosis in human beings, but in the cows as well:
"At least one in every 100 cows is actively discharging tubercle bacilli into the milk or elsewhere. Anything from 5 to 13 per cent. of the milk sold for human food contains living, virulent tubercle bacilli. On the human side we find that about 2,000 deaths in England and Wales, mostly in children, occur annually from infections with the bovine bacillus…and not less than 4,000 fresh cases of tuberculosis of bovine origin occur every year."
These figures are borne out later in the report, where the number of deaths is stated to be 2,500 for Great Britain, that is including Scotland, but there is another side to be considered, with which the medical profession is concerned, and that is the nutritive value of milk.

459
Gentlemen interested in the dairy industry constantly speak of the magnificent nutritive value of milk and take the advice of the medical profession, but at the same time deride the dangers of infection. The nutritive value of milk must be considered in conjunction with its infectivity. About eight years ago we were referring to a series of extraordinary experiments by Dr. F. Mann, a well-known children's doctor, as to the nutritive value of milk on children in a Poor Law institution over a period of several years. Some were fed on an extra diet of milk, and others were not, but were given a corresponding amount of ordinary cereal food. The result was perfectly astonishing as regards weight and height and general well being. There is no question that the nutritive value of milk is very great. But how are you going to combine the two things? It is absurd to say that the medical profession ought not to pay any attention to the comparatively small amount of tubercular milk. If one looks at the sufferings of crippled children, on the streets and in our hospitals, to say nothing of the 2,000 deaths per year and the 4,000 fresh cases which arise every year, it is no use saying that we ought to take the risk. We can leave such speeches out of account, we can march straight through them.
There are certain devices which are perfectly possible. I know that the dairy industry object to any suggestions which will involve expense, and that they have objected to the idea of pasteurisation. It is perfectly simple. It is a process of treating milk in order to render it innocuous. In France the housewife as a matter of course always boils the milk. We go much better, and we have discovered that if you simply bring it to scalding point you do not destroy the nutritive qualities of the milk or its flavour. The difficulty is the machinery, but that it seems to me is solving itself. About 95 per cent. of the milk which comes into London for consumption is pasteurised, but in farms and in out of the way places, where there is only a small consumption and also a small staff, there is almost as much danger in the use of this machinery as there was when using filters for water. There is a danger in using these methods as it requires a good deal of intelligence
460
and ingenuity if the machinery requires to he repaired.
We come back to the idea which was the only practical conclusion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland). He referred to the proposals of the Children's Minimum Committee with which his name is associated. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman suggests that we should wait for 10 or 20 years in order to ensure a tubercular-free supply of milk. If we put it at that we should be a great deal more realistic than the right hen. Gentleman was. He suggests that every home can look after its own milk. They can do so but they will not always do so and the proper attitude is to do anything that can be done with the methods at present available. If you provide milk for schools it will be under the authority either of the school medical officer or of the medical officer of health advising the education and public health authorities. They will have to consider what is the best way of protecting, as far as possible, the milk supply which is to be given in that way. I feel strongly that the greater number of them will say that it is possible to pasteurise milk cheaply and that in any case the nutritive value of the milk will be infinitely to the advantage of the children and they will desire to give as large a supply to the children as can be allotted.
The fact is that on this question of cleanliness we have advanced considerably during the last decade. We certainly have advanced in popular knowledge and understanding of the difficulties and of the manner in which progress can be made. We have to distinguish clearly in this matter between the short-term policy and the long-term policy. The short-term policy is represented by the measures already referred to such as the pasteurisation or boiling of milk. The long-term policy is the policy of the eradication of tubercle from the herds. I hope the Committee will not err either on the side of imagining that that is an impossible task or on the other side of imagining that it can be done in one or two years. It is not an easy business. It will be most difficult, but I believe that it can be done by a proper long-term policy and that long-term policy is set out in the two reports to which I have referred. The main question, which, I am glad to see is strongly emphasised

461
in the last report, is that we want greater support for the veterinary profession in connection with the supervision of the condition of dairy cattle. Secondly, we want a system of tuberculin testing and the isolation of tubercular cattle from those which are not tubercular. That will require large measures, and I hope that it will be taken in hand under the proposals which we are considering to-day.
The veterinary profession hitherto has grown locally, very much as the medical profession grew in past centuries, and it has not advanced with the times. There are prominent instances of men who have, despite the difficulties, shown themselves all the greater by their manner of dealing with those difficulties, but ordinarily speaking the veterinary profession has suffered through want of proper training such as is arranged for in many other countries. The difficulties in connection with the Veterinary College are well known and the possibility of increasing proper educational facilities and bringing up a new generation of veterinary officers is one which should receive consideration. You cannot have proper veterinary inspection without properly trained veterinary officers. You cannot have properly trained veterinary officers without the adequate machinery of college and staff and you cannot have that machinery unless you are going to attract the right people to the profession. Hitherto we have not offered sufficient attractions to bring into the profession men of corresponding status and learning to those in the other professions. You have men who enjoy an open-air or an agricultural life and who have taken up veterinary work in order to get that kind of life, but you want to attract to the profession men who are students as well as agriculturists. You will not get them unless there is the proper machinery for their training and unless they are offered a career which is worth having.
We must recognise the value of real scientific work for the prevention as well as the cure of disease in dairy cattle. We must recognise that such work is worth paying for and that we ought to have the services of veterinary surgeons, as they are called, who will do work in connection with cattle such as the medical officers of health for 50 years have been organised as a profession to do in con-
462
nection with diseases among human beings. I hope that every county and county borough will before long have its proper veterinary staff and equipment on those lines and that men of high standing will be attracted to the profession and will help to work out the elimination of this plague of tuberculosis as well as other infectious diseases which pass from cattle to human beings. We feel that that is a necessity before we can get a supply of clean milk such as can be publicly recommended to everybody as safe apart from any kind of treatment whatever.
Finally, I would say that despite all the difficulties, the nutritional element in milk is immense and it would be an enormous gain if the proportion of food given to children in the form of milk every day could be increased. Whether it can be increased by the means suggested in connection with these proposals-I do not know. There is a danger in-stimulating the supply too much and creating a too sudden change. One danger is that if a child is suddenly given a large supply of milk in the middle of each day and if the child's parents are unemployed or are in great poverty there will be a tendency on their part to think that they need not give that child the full amount of the ordinary meals at home. The tendency in certain homes might be to deprive the children of other food because they were getting the milk at school land perhaps in the long run some of the children would be getting less food and not more and the new milk supply would only be looked" upon as a means of relieving the family budget. If you were to distribute milk on a large scale straight away free of any charge even to those who can afford to pay for it a great deal of the expenditure might be wasted. But if the system is carefully introduced and the proper proportions are observed I am certain that we can give a large measure of help to the dairying industry in this way and also help the children of to-day and the future generations of this country by means of the proposal which we are glad to support this evening.
9.15 p.m.
Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: I should like to refer to something which the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie) said, namely, that the Conservative party had.

463
always been prepared for a certain measure of State interference. The supporters of the Conservative party are always prepared to demand a certain measure of financial assistance from the State—which is rather a different proposition: Whenever they see that the profits in a particular industry like milk are diminishing or have diminished, they hurry almost indecently to this House and demand that they shall be given some form of dole, and be it noted that there is never any means test connected with that dole. There are no doubt many hon. Members in this House who own dairy herds and who will get the benefit of some of the money which they are voting to-day under this Financial Resolution. I venture to suggest that if the means test were applied to them very few would qualify for it. When it comes to the question of increasing or creating profits in an industry, it seems to be one of the primary principles of the Conservative party that it is indecent to consider anything like a means test.
When one looks at the question of the disposal of the so-called surplus milk, the arguments that are put up strike one as slightly fantastic. As I understand it, we are told that this milk is too impure to give to school children, that it is so full of disease. The Minister does not say so, but we have been told to-night that this milk is really too impure to give to school children and that therefore we ought to subsidise its manufacture into some other article.
Sir F. FREMANTLE: I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman did not take my remarks as suggesting that that is the case, because it is certainly not the case
Sir S. CRIPPS: I gather that the hon. Member did not take that view, although he, like myself, considers the danger a very serious one which ought to be dealt with by the State and that the advantages of milk consumption by children is often out-weighed by the disadvantage which comes from the impurity of the supply. The hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) stated that it would not be wise at the present time to try and give any increased supply to the school children because the quality of the milk really was not such as could be properly offered to them. The Minister, I am glad to see, does not take that view at all. If
464
the quality of the milk is good enough, though not so high as it should be, why is it, if we want to get a greater area of distribution for liquid milk, that we should subsidise its use for manufacture rather than subsidise its use as liquid milk?
The right hon. Gentleman intervened when my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) was speaking to point out that the poorest people were forced to drink this manufactured milk, and that if you subsidised the manufacture you were therefore subsidising the poorest people. Surely it would be simpler to subsidise the poorest people direct with liquid milk rather than put it through the process of manufacture in order to get it to them as a cheap and much less desirable article. It seems that if your only purpose is to subsidise the poorest people by subidising the manufacture of liquid milk you are putting yourself to a great deal of unnecessary trouble, and furthermore putting the poor people whom you subsidise to the disadvantage of having to drink tinned milk instead of having to drink liquid milk, which would be far preferable and better for them. Of course, this loan is a pure farce, as everybody to-night has realised.
If we are going to subsidise milk at all, it would be far better to pick out that portion of the population that everybody admits requires milk and see that it gets it. That would be the sort of sensible proposition of anybody who was in charge of any community. You find in a certain area a great admitted want. You have, on the other hand, a great over-supply as it is called. It is perfectly possible to bring these two together. There is nothing to stop it. Yet instead of bringing these two together—the demand of the children and the over-supply of the farmers—you divert it through the canning factories or the manufacturing processes in the hope, the Minister tells us, that the poor people will get it back in a cheap form after it has been through the manufacturing process. I venture to suggest that nobody outside Hanwell or some such institution would think of such a device, unless it were the necessity for maintaining the profit-earning system. I see that the right hon. Gentleman does not like that.
Mr. ELLIOT: I find it very amusing.
Sir S. CRIPPS: Perhaps one day the right hon. Gentleman will be walking outside the walls of Hanwell and somebody will beckon to him and say, "Why don't you come in here?"
Mr. ELLIOT: Some people say that the hon. and learned Gentleman is there already.
Sir S. CRIPPS: I feel like it when I am so close to the right hon. Gentleman. The trouble with regard to the over-supply arises from the confusion between what is the need of the people and what is the effective demand which those people present as purchasers for milk. If the whole of the needs of the people could be made vocal in the market there is very little doubt that, practically speaking, the whole of the liquid milk available in this country could be consumed. Our consumption per head is vastly lower than that of many other countries, and we could very easily, if our people had the means of making themselves vocal in the market and making their demand effective, absorb this liquid milk without going to this device in order to get rid of it in making cheese, handles for knives or anything of that kind. In order to do that, it is true that we must first of all make sure that the supply is such that it does not damage people in their health and frighten them and does not allow such persons as Mr. A. P. Herbert to put across on the wireless a talk comparing beer with milk, in which milk comes off a very bad second. It is enough to make one's flesh creep when one hears of the dangers that are contained in a glass of milk as advertised by him over the wireless.
Therefore, it is essential that some really large measure should be taken for the purpose of cleaning up the herds and the methods of producing milk on the farms and when it passes from the farms into distribution. We do not think that the allocation which is made in this Financial Resolution will be able really to begin to tackle that problem, if it is to be tackled, and that it would have been far better to make a real frontal attack on this problem in order to make a basis for the wider distribution and the advertising, if we are to resort to advertising, in order to get a distribution. This report of the Economic Advisory Council as to the condition of milk is not a very happy basis for advertising. If you advertise on the placards and hoard-
466
ings of this country what is said in the report I do not think the right hon. Gentleman will get much success as regards a wider distribution of milk. Of course, if you try, within our present system, to bring about a better condition in the milk trade, you are necessarily forced to try to keep up prices. That is one of the penalties which you have to pay for our existing system. You cannot force down wages; therefore you have to try to force up prices, and every time you force up prices you make your difficulty of distribution greater, because you narrow your area of consumption. For every penny per gallon milk goes up, so many fewer people are able to buy the same quantities which they could buy before and you are always met, as you must be met under our present system, with the necessity of imposing control to bring scarcity, rather than imposing control which will enable you to create an abundant supply. That is why in this scheme to-day you are forced to try to put milk into manufactured products rather than try to put milk into liquid consumption, and the whole of this scheme is to try to invent a means of getting rid of milk from the liquid market in order that the liquid market may have a higher price for its milk. That is being done by an attempt to restrict the market.
Something has been said about distribution. This difficulty which arises on distribution and the enormous power of the distribution combine is one which is in no way peculiar to this country. When I was recently in the United States of America I had a long discussion with the person who was in charge in the Department of Agriculture of the milk distribution scheme in the United States of America. I was told that the problem of milk distribution, owing to the large combines there, and also owing to the racketeering which has got into the milk business, was one that it was almost impossible to solve. However, the person who was speaking to me said, "We have got one district in which I am glad to say that the distribution is operating with great success both for the consumer and the producer." I ventured to say to him, "Well, I will guess which that is; it is Milwaukee." There has long been a Socialist administration in that city, and they had municipalised the

467
whole distribution of milk, to the enormous benefit both of the farmer and of the consumer.
I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, if this trouble as regards distribution is to be got over in this country, it will never be got over until these big combines are put out of the business of distribution, and it is either turned over to co-operative or to municipal distribution. You will not be able to narrow down this enormous market in regard to which, as the right hon. Gentleman for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) showed, since 1913 the distributive margin had gone up by over 100 per cent. Whereas it was 5d., it has gone up to 10d. That has been a gradually increasing margin with the increasing strength of the distribution combines, and their reaction on the rest of the trade. They have gradually been sucking more and more out of this milk distributing business and naturally leaving less and less for the producer, until at the present time there is something like sharing the price between them. The producer gets half and the distributor gets the other half. That problem, which has not apparently been alleviated very much by the recent arbitration proceedings, is one for which I believe there can be no solution so long as you allow these enormously strong capitalist combines to control the distribution channels of milk.
We believe that that is one of the vital deficiencies of a scheme such as this, though, of course, any scheme in which you retain the profit basis at the very centre is almost bound to work out on the same sort of lines—that is, prices going up, the State drawn in to give subsidies of one kind or another, and the consumer left to pay a greater and greater ransom. We believe that that will be the fate of this scheme—no doubt it is the fate to which the right hon. Gentleman looks forward for all these agricultural schemes to which he is putting his hand—but it is not one which we believe to be consistent with the best interests of the community.
9.31 p.m.
Mr. SKELTON: We have had a most interesting Debate and one most interesting to listen to from this bench. Many
468
valuable opinions have been expressed, and it has been interesting, and indeed gratifying, to watch the way in which, so soon as criticism of one part of the Financial Resolution was made from one quarter of the House, it was immediately destroyed from another. My right hon. Friends and myself have been to a large extent sitting in clover in this instance. None the less, the Debate has raised some interesting questions that demand discussion and reply. Let me recall the nature of this Financial Resolution. It has three main heads. The first is the sum, broadly estimated at £3,500,000, to be spent in the next two years for the purpose of giving an economic return to the milk used for manufacturing purposes. The second head is the £750,000 which is to be used for beginning a process of cleaning up the milk supplies of this country. The third main head is the £1,000,000 to be used within two years or so for the purpose of increasing the consumption of liquid milk. One criticism has been with regard to the proportion which these three sums bear in the Financial Resolution. I do not propose to discuss that at great length, because various tastes might distribute these sums by different means.
I will say a word as to why we have selected the distribution of these sums in the way in which they are based in the Financial Resolution. Take, first of all, the money which is to be spent with regard to giving an economic return to the milk used for manufacturing purposes. More than one hon. Member, and particularly the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, seemed to think that there would have been some special advantage to be gained had that item been devoted to increasing the consumption of liquid milk, and he specifically invited me to say a word on that point in reply. I do so with pleasure, for the method which we have adopted in regard to the use of that sum will result, we hope and believe, in maintaining a very important agricultural and rural industry, namely, the making of cheese in this country. There are districts both south and north of the Tweed, large and important agricultural districts, whose prosperity in the past has been founded on cheese-making—a most expert and important industry which develops a very high class of agricultural worker, which is of great value, and which, so far as

469
its results are concerned, produce cheeses which are unrivalled among the cheeses of the world. Therefore, to say that it would have been better in principle to do nothing except to help the consumption of liquid milk, and to allow this most important rural industry to continue to decline at the rate at which it has been declining in the last few years, throwing permanently out of employment a very highly skilled class of workers, is to put forward a proposition which has only to be looked at to be rejected. Let me add a word about the tinning of condensed milk, which will also be helped by this money. Is it of no value that we should substitute for the imports of foreign condensed milk condensed milk manufactured at home?
Sir S. CRIPPS: Why not substitute liquid milk?
Mr. SKELTON: Because, as my hon. and learned Friend must, I think, be aware, it is not poverty alone which makes many people use condensed milk. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Then is it also poverty which has so much increased the use of other canned foods in this country? Not at all. All these canned foods, including milk, are used to some extent, and increasingly so, on account of their greater convenience. Especially is that so in the case of milk, because families who use only small quantities of milk find that a tin of condensed milk will keep for two or three days. Everybody who was through the War, to put it no higher, knows the convenience of condensed milk.
Mr. KIRKWOOD: The working-class regard tinned fruit as a luxury, but condensed milk is recognised as an absolute necessity. That is the difference.
Mr. SKELTON: That may be the difference, but my hon. Friend's observation merely brings out the point I am trying to make, that it is astonishing that one substance in a tin should be regarded as a luxury and another as a hardship. I fancy that I have had as much experience of condensed milk as any Member in this House. However, I leave that point, only emphasising that there is a real advantage in substituting home-produced condensed milk for foreign. The fact that so much more work will be given to people in this country may not interest
470
hon. Members opposite, but it is the basis of our general economic policy, a policy which is securing a reduction of unemployment and an increase of purchasing power. I come now to the item of £750,000 to be expended on cleaning up the herds. It has been said that more might have been spent, but it must be pointed out that this money is being spent to some extent experimentally. It is the beginning of a work which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) has said, has been long delayed. I do not think any hon. Member can cavil at the fact that we are at last making a beginning.
To turn again to the £1,000,000 to be spent on increasing the use of liquid milk, those who desire that more should be spent in that way ought to be satisfied that we are likely to spend £1,000,000, because that is at least of some value. On this topic the most remarkable diversity of view has been expressed. The hon. Member for Don Valley rather indicated that he would like to have seen the whole of the money available spent upon increasing the consumption of liquid milk, but the right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) presented a very remarkable proposition, because he said that, eagerly as he desired to see the consumption of liquid milk increased, he would postpone the consumption of a single gallon or pint of liquid milk in the schools until he had entirely cleaned up the herds.
Sir F. ACLAND: I am sorry if I gave that impression. I intended to say that we should not let the supply of milk for the children be outrun. I would not delay any supply until everything had been cleaned up.
Mr. SKELTON: I am glad that what I have said has enabled my right hon. Friend to make that explanation, because I think all hon. Members who were present will agree that what I have said represented the impression left by his speech.
Sir F. ACLAND: It was my mistake.
Mr. SKELTON: I do not think he need have any fear that there will be an inadequate supply of safe milk for the children of this country. There is a considerable and growing number of certified herds,

471
and what is as important from the point of view of safe consumption is that, certainly as far as London is concerned, the great bulk of the milk if not the whole of the milk is pasteurised. I do not think we need postpone encouraging the consumption of liquid milk on account of any fear that there may not be a sufficient supply of safe milk. Into the question of pasteurisation or clean herds I will not enter, though it has been discussed this afternoon. It is a large and difficult and scientific problem, but the Committee will agree that prevention is better than cure, and that if we can clean up the herds we secure a degree of safety which we can never attain by pasteurisation, which has anxieties and dangers of its own.
The next main topic which appeared in many speeches was whether under the existing Milk Board the distributors both in England and Scotland get too large a profit. Until the milk scheme came into operation there was no organised body on the side of the producers at all equivalent to the various organisations which represent the distributors, and therefore it cannot be a matter of surprise if in the early months of the life of the Milk Board a final figure for the proper costs of distribution has not been reached. I think we all agree that the experience of the Milk Board up to date shows that the ascertainment of the proper costs of distribution is one of the most vital matters ahead of the milk scheme. There is an increasing realisation on the part of the board, the producers, the consumers and I believe the distributors that the distributors must satisfy the nation as a whole that in the organised system which the milk scheme has produced they get their fair share, and no more than their fair share, of the costs and the profits, but that is a very different thing from saying that the figure, the opportunity for inquiring into which is so new, should have been finally and infinitively ascertained.
I have dealt with the main matters which have been raised, but one or two special questions were also referred to. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) whose self-control in not moving his Amendment I greatly appreciate, raised a matter on which he had put down an Amendment. He was anxious
472
to ensure by a provision to be inserted in the Bill or in the Financial Resolution that only milk of the most safe sort should be supplied in schools, and that conditions should be laid down in the Financial Resolution and the Bill absolutely to secure that. On that topic we are in principle entirely at one with the hon. Member, as no doubt the whole Committee are, but that is another matter from seeking at this point to lay down an actual standard in the Financial Resolution. We think that that would be an unwise thing to do. In certain circumstances in certain districts safety may be secured by pasteurisation, elsewhere by the development of certified milk, and there are even rural districts where the normal raw milk supplied is so clean that certificates by local medical officers will, we believe, be a sufficient guarantee that it may safely be used in schools. These are matters which ought to be carefully explored and looked into when the scheme is in operation, and we de-sire that our hands should be left free so far as the phraseology of the Financial Resolution is concerned.
There is hardly any other question to answer in detail, because the main topics covered a variety of separate questions. Therefore I would conclude by saying a few words on the speech of the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps). He was very eloquent on the subject of restriction and the dreadful career of crime that we were pursuing in our general agricultural policy. What legislation enabled us to pursue this career of crime I Surely it is very largely if not exclusively the Marketing Act of 1931.
Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Surely the hon. Member will not suggest that the Agricultural Marketing Act of 1931 gave a licence to any Government to subsidise the sale of diseased milk.
Mr. SKELTON: No legislation ever has been or ever will be passed to do that. I was only reminding the hon. and learned Member that the legislation which we are calling in aid is legislation in which he was greatly interested, and I do not think that it lies in his mouth to accuse us of going off on a rake's progress of restriction when our guide and compass is an Act of Parliament passed by himself and his friends.
Sir S. CRIPPS: The Marketing Act of 1931 did not lay down any necessity for restriction or scarcity of supply, but it might equally be used for scarcity or abundance. The further step to have been taken would have been the elimination of the profit-earning system.
Mr. SKELTON: That last horrifying statement of the hon. and learned Gentleman shows once again how often in the history of Britain fate steps in at the right moment, and in that case fate stepped in with great effectiveness and decisiveness, and it appears that we shall have to wait for some time until that beautiful sequel of the Marketing Act of 1931 takes place. I have dealt with the various topics that have been raised. I know that although criticism has been made, and very properly made, this Financial Resolution will pass with the good will of the great body of the House, and that it has strong underlying support even from those who are determined to vote against it. I believe that they would be in their hearts extremely sorry if they were to find themselves in a majority, for it is from academic and theoretical reasons that they are going to record their votes against proposals in which they adherently believe
9.52 p.m.
Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: I should like to congratulate the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland on a very skilful speech. He has covered a great deal of ground in a very short time with wonderful clarity, but he has not yet dealt with the important and very able speech made by the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Mr. de Rothschild) which dealt with the financial side of the Resolution, and particularly with the matter of subsidy. I congratulate the Under-Secretary most sincerely on having avoided a difficulty. This is a very long Financial Resolution. There are bits of it with which almost every one of us would agree, and there are bits of it on which one finds oneself in agreement with most strange persons. I find myself almost in agreement with the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps). He may be improving; there is always hope.
The extraordinary thing about the whole of the arguments that we have heard to-day is that in this Financial Resolution there is no financial limit laid
474
down and no real time limit laid down, by a House of Commons which was elected to look after the finances of the country, and we have not once from beginning to end had the attendance of any Finance Minister. I will not develop that matter, but there is a serious point which I feel deeply as an agriculturist. In the Resolution there are all sorts of things laid down. It is provided that milk for consumption by children shall be pure and free from infection. We are all agreed upon that, as far as possible. It would be better if the House of Commons spent its time in seeing that some of the foreign milks that come here are free from any sort of infection.
I should like to refer to the speech of the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) with regard to the effect on the whole milk position. I want to help the Government as much as I can, and any criticism that I make is because I sincerely and honestly believe that the method of the Financial Resolution is the wrong method. The hon. Member for Altrincham congratulated the Minister on the fact that the Milk Board had succeeded in preventing undercutting. I am in an extraordinary position. Some people in whom I am interested have done very well under the milk scheme, but others in whom I am interested, and who happen to be voters in my division, have done amazingly badly under this scheme and are finding that, instead of being saved from undercutting, they are cut very nearly 50 per cent. compared with this time last year. That means that that land, which is most suitable for clean milk production and which is near to a town, will go out of milk production in the immediate future in all probability. That is a disastrous thing to happen.
The second point is that the hon. Member for Altrincham, who was full of praise for the Minister—and no one delights more than I do to see him back, well and sane and able to work for his Department—said he had failed in regard to the middleman. Any of us who have been connected with farming questions for most of our lives know that that is the essential question to deal with at present. I am entirely sympathetic with the Minister, because I think the thing that is killing him at present is the perfectly imbecile Marketing Act of 1931. If it were not for that imbecility, which he

475
thinks he must use, he would do much better. If he had the courage to get up and say, as some of us have, that it is a thoroughly wrong and badly constructed Act, and if he had scrapped it in the beginning, he would be far nearer to-day to getting a proper marketing system. That is my conviction. I say this system is entirely wrong and has misled the right hon. Gentleman from the beginning.
The trouble with which we are trying to deal in this Financial Resolution is that the bottom of the milk market has dropped out, and there is no way in which we can deal with it except, in the first place, by increasing consumption. We have got to get milk as a common article of diet for millions more people, and to do that we do not want to bolster up the price, either by subsidy or in any other way. A helpful part of this Resolution is that part which, although it is uncontrolled and badly regulated, helps to bring milk closer to the school children. I am not going into the controversy that has been raised by those who like hair splitting on small points, as to whether it is better to get a little milk more quickly to a few school children, or whether some wretched medical officer will come in and say, "Here is a school child who is tuberculous through tubercular milk," and thereby make milk unpopular. All that is immaterial. Although I dislike subsidies, if we are to subsidise anything, I would subsidise school children first every time, and particularly the school children in the very heavily necessitous areas. It would be far better to spend money in pouring milk into those districts than in many of the ways in which we are spending it at the present time.
But after increasing consumption we must do something to limit the extraordinary amount of milk and milk surpluses coming to this country from various sources, and that is why I think the Minister is wrong in pinning his faith to the Milk Marketing Board. The best and the only way in which we can deal with this ever-growing amount of stuff that is coming in is deliberately to say that certain foreign countries cannot import more than they were importing, say, five or six years ago, and to make
476
an effort in that way to limit our surplus. That, after all, would be taking us back to the time when we had a very considerable trade. I say that, not because I wish generally to limit development, but because I believe—for various reasons, one of which, and the worst of all, except perhaps the financial one, is this matter of subsidies—that you have got to deal with this question of surpluses in an entirely fresh way.
We are to-day in this absurd position, that we are offering a subsidy to the milk suppliers of this country, and we are offering it in direct competition with the subsidies given by some of the Dominion Governments. What is the good of the taxpayer in this country finding money to subsidise milk production here, and the taxpayer in Australia and in New Zealand doing the same thing in their own countries? Would it not be better to come to some sort of fair wages agreement, and get it in through your Dominions settlement, whereby it would be agreed as a primary factor in all trade agreements within the Empire that there must be no subsidy of any sort or kind for the goods going either from here to the Dominions or from the Dominions to this country? It is nothing new. It is only what Canada is doing. It is quite easy to arrange, and I believe that if it were put in that way, it would assure that the Dominions would have, not merely a share, but a growing share, in our markets; and unless that share can be a growing share we cannot hope to deal with the emigration problem, which is essential for our own unemployment question.
It would be far better if this House, instead of building up a steadily growing system of subsidies, turned its attention to the elimination of subsidies, which would save the taxpayers' money and at the same time to making definite agreements, which would help us with our Dominions overseas. We are dealing in this Resolution with what seems to be, to some people, an emergency, but this question of a milk subsidy has been growing for many years now. It is not something which is new or sudden. This may be a more or less temporary Measure, and I want to see, not something temporary, but something which can be accepted by men of goodwill in all

477
parties and something which is permanent. I have had, the whole of my life, some connection with agriculture, and nothing has been better for agriculture than the good will which has been growing up, slowly, between the towns and the countryside during the past few years, while nothing has been worse for agriculture than the Corn Production Act, which was passed after the War and which had to be repealed because it was unjust and exacted subsidies from taxpayers and because the country could not afford it.
I see subsidies being brought in for all sorts of things, and I do not believe they are sound. I believe it is possible to go to work in some other way, and I say, as an agriculturist who has lived practically the whole of his life, except while here in the House of Commons, in the country, that I am convinced that if you are going on subsidising and building up subsidies, you will come to the same position as Parliament was in from 1918 to 1922, when the Corn Production Act was brought in and almost immediately repealed. I personally have not the slightest intention of voting for this subsidy. Nothing would induce me to vote for something which I think is going to put agriculture
in a false position with the towns at present. There are very few agricultural voters in my division, and a great number of town voters. It is absolutely wrong at the present time to ask the House of Commons to adopt these temporary patching-up measures for two years. It would be better to cut out some of our foreign competitors in this country and work on such lines as would increase the home market for our own people. I am glad to see that the cheese producers' business is to be more successful, but the worst thing under this scheme is that it does not help those districts and areas which are the best natural milk-producing areas. To-day your best and most natural milk-producing areas are being driven out of existence and many areas which ought to be growing wheat or corn are producing milk because of the natural contraction of prices in the last few years. Unless you can reverse that process, as we are doing in the wheat subsidy which is on sound lines, you are not working in the interests of agriculture or of the country as a whole.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 177; Noes, 43.

Division No. 260.]

AYES.

[10.8 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Conant, R. J. E.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

Cook, Thomas A.

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

Albery, Irving James

Craven-Ellis, William

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

Crooke. J. Smedley

Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Galnsb'ro)

Hills. Major Rt. Hon. John Wall r

Appiln, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

Croom-Johnson, R. P.

Hornby, Frank

Apsley, Lord

Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

Horsbrugh, Florence

Aske, Sir Robert William

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Dower, Captain A. V. G.

Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Drewe, Cedric

Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)

Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

Duckworth, George A. V.

Hurd, Sir Percy

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C)

Duncan. James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

Jackson, Sir Henry (Wanoswarth, C.)

Bernays, Robert

Edmondson, Major A. J.

James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

Blaker, Sir Reginald

Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Blindell, James

Elliston, Captain George Sampson

Ker, J. Campbell

Bossom, A. C.

Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

Boulton, W. W.

Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

Knight, Holford

Bowyer Capt. Sir George E. W.

Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

Fleming, Edward Lascelles

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Brass, Captain Sir William

Ford, Sir Patrick J.

Lees-Jones, John

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Fremantle, Sir Francis

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

Fuller, Captain A. G.

Lewis, Oswald

Burghley, Lord

Gillett, Sir George Masterman

Liddall, Walter S.

Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

Gluckstein, Louis Halle

Loder, Captain J. de Vere

Burton. Colonel Henry Walter

Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

Loftus, Pierce C.

Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

Greene, William P. C.

Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

Caporn, Arthur Cecil

Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)

McCorquodale, M. S.

Carver, Major William H.

Grigg, Sir Edward

McKie, John Hamilton

Castlereagh, Viscount

Grlmaton, R. V.

Macqulsten, Frederick Alexander

Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Magnay, Thomas

Clayton, Sir Christopher

Hales, Harold K.

Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Manningham-Buller, Lt. Col. Sir M.

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Rankin, Robert

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

Reld, William Allan (Deroy)

Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gtn, S.)

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Remer, John R.

Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

Milne, Charles

Renwick, Major Gustav A.

Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

Rickards, George William

Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

Turton, Robert Hugh

Moss. Captain H. J.

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. Hull)

Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

Runge, Norah Cecil

Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

Munro, Patrick

Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

Wardlaw-Milne. Sir John S.

Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

Normand, Rt. Hon. Willrld

Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeou

Nunn, William

Salmon, Sir Isldore

Wells, Sydney Richard

O'Donovan, Dr. William James

Salt, Edward W.

Whyte, Jardine Bell

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

Willoughby dc Eresby, Lord

Patrick, Colin M.

Savery, Samuel Servington

Wills, Wilfrid D.

Pearson, William G.

Selley, Harry R.

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

Penny, Sir George

Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

Petherick, M.

Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

Windsor-Cilve, Lieut.-Colonel George

Pike. Cecil F.

Shute, Colonel J. J.

Wise, Alfred R.

Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Unv., Belfast)

Womersley, Walter James

Radford, E. A.

Skelton, Archibald Noel

Worthington, Dr. John V.

Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Ramsden, Sir Eugene

Spens, William Patrick

Commander Southby and Dr. Morris-Jones.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke

Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

Griffiths, George A. (Yorks,W. Riding)

Milner, Major James

Attlee, Clement Richard

Grundy, Thomas W.

Rea, Walter Russell

Batey, Joseph

Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Z'tl'nd)

Sinclair. Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

Holdsworth, Herbert

Smith, Tom (Normanton)

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Jenkins, Sir William

Tinker, John Joseph

Cripps, Sir Stafford

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Jostah

Daggar, George

Kirkwood. David

White, Henry Graham

Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

Lawson, John James

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Dobble, William

Leonard, William

Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

Edwards, Charles

Logan, David Gilbert

Williams. Thomas (York. Don Valley)

Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

Gardner, Benjamin Walter

McEntee, Valentine L.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

Mainwaring, William Henry

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Mr. John an d Mr. P. Creham.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  BRITISH SUGAR (SUBSIDY) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBEET in the Chair.]

  BRITISH SUGAR (SUBSIDY) BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Extension of period in respect of which subsidies are payable under 15 & 16 Geo. 5, c. 12.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    10.17 p.m.
    Mr. LEONARD: On the Financial Resolution I had to go into considerable detail on this matter, covering the profits which had been enjoyed by the beneficiaries of the subsidy, the sources of capital of some of the companies, and the intricacies of the subsidies which have been paid to producers of sugar. Since then I have heard of no satisfactory reason for continuing the subsidy as
    480
    proposed in this Bill. I have entered into discussion and listened to many individuals. I have even sat through a rather long explanation of the incidence of this matter upon military practices going back to Napoleon. Notwithstanding all the discussion, I am still of opinion that we have paid enough money in subsidy to this industry. I should have thought, if the statements made in regard to Empire subsidy had been put forward by those who are rather keen in expressing themselves on that line that a little more attention would have been paid to parts of the Empire which are capable of giving greater satisfaction in regard to productivity than this country, than to continuing to bolster up one of the most uneconomic crops that could be grown in this country.
    A lot of detail was entered into, in the years when the refining interests in this country were not deemed to be suitable to be taken under the wing of an Agricultural Marketing Act, and in these days the present Secretary of State for Scotland made speeches in regard to these interests and the relationship to them

    481
    of a subsidy. It would be very interesting to hear those speeches made to-day from the benches opposite. Lord Olivier, at the request of the British Government, paid a visit to the British West Indies, and he made it quite clear that the sugar industry in that country was applying the most economical methods possible to get the best result that could be got in any part of the world, with the exception, in his opinion, of Java. That part of the Empire was capable of giving greater satisfaction for the production of beet sugar than can he given in this country.
    It surprises me that a Government such as this, which is so strong in Empire policy, does not pay a little more attention to the possibilities in that direction. I think that the 10 years' experience that we have had is sufficient. We have been paying, during part of that 10 years, no less than £l per cwt., in some respects to Dutch capital, for sugar that we could have got from Empire sources for a payment of 5s. per cwt., and I think we are entitled now to look rather minutely on any further proposals to give help to an industry which has taken so long to give a satisfactory answer as to whether it should continue or not. The purpose of the Bill is to allow of the preparation of a scheme to cover the interests that would be left, as it were, in the air if the subsidy were withdrawn, and I think it right to ask for an explanation of the attitude that has been adopted. In the first place, we find that it has been the policy in the past—I speak subject to correction——
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member seems to be making a Second Reading speech. The question before the Committee is that Clause 1 stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. LEONARD: My point was that this proposal is for the purpose of giving time for those interests in the sugar industry to prepare a scheme, and I thought I should have been in order in saying something with regard to the scheme as far as it has appeared at the present time.
    The CHAIRMAN: That would not be in order.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: On that point of Order. Clause 1, as I understand it, is
    482
    for the purpose of continuing the subsidy for a limited period, and the question which my hon. Friend is raising is as to the purpose of that continuation for a limited period. There has been discussed recently, at a public inquiry, a marketing scheme for sugar which deals with the very sugar in respect of which the subsidy is to be paid, and I submit to you, Sir Dennis, that it is in order in a discussion on this Clause, which relates to the period for which the subsidy is to continue, to discuss the reasons why that period should be inserted in the Clause.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member was proposing to discuss the scheme, and I have ruled that he cannot do so on the question which is now before the Committee.
    Mr. LEONARD: I accept your Ruling. I want to make a point with which I can deal within your Ruling. I want to refer to the promise which was made in the House in March, 1932, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who gave an undertaking to the House that, before we were asked to proceed, as we are now being asked to proceed, there would be an inquiry into the sugar industry. We waited for that inquiry, but up to the present have not received any report from the Committee. It should have reported before the end of the subsidy period: that was the specific undertaking that was given; but the Committee, which it was then thought would be speedily put into operation, has only been appointed a few weeks. We feel, therefore, that, because of the failure to honour the promise made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that occasion, the Government are not entitled to come forward with this Bill at the present moment before we have the details of the inquiry.
    My intention was to go into some of the aspects which I think should have been put before the House, and which would, in my opinion, have been put before the House had the committee of inquiry been put into action. That has not been done, and I regret that the opportunity does not occur now to touch upon some pertinent details that should have been displayed as regards the relationship of the Government to the interests concerned, the discussions that have been taking place, the promises that the Government have made, and as to whether a public utility basis should not

    483
    be the basis in future, as against monopoly powers which everyone now is fully conscious are to be put forward as the basis for the industry in the future. The possibility that the people who have already received £40,000,000 in subsidies will be able to take £46,000,000 in the next 10 years is sufficient reason for making no further progress until we receive a report from the committee.
    10.26 p.m.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: This is a most extraordinary Clause. Whoever heard of a Clause to extend a period for 11 months? It is one of the most awkward periods of the year, and we should have some very strong explanation of it. My first objection is that you are extending it till August, and that is not a convenient time. If you are going to extend the beet-sugar subsidy, it should be to such a time, September or October, or even later, as is convenient for preparing the ground for the coming year's crop. August is well before the crop has been gathered and you are thinking of preparing the ground for next year, and to extend it to August is bad from that point of view. I could understand a date about December or January, which would cover the subsidy for the period in which the crop has been marketed and made into sugar. That would be sensible, but I do not think it is right that the Government should bring in an absurd date such as this. It is the sort of silly, half-baked thing that might have been done by their predecessors. I have the strongest objection to seeing a good, sensible, honest Minister, controlled by an able Parliamentary Secretary, playing the fool in the stupid sort of way that their predecessors did. I do not wish to be unkind, but it really is not sense to bring in this particular time. If you look at it from the point of view of finance, August does not coincide with the financial year in any way, and from that point of view it would have been far better to extend it until next April. But what really appeals to me is that you are continuing the time at all. I am convinced that subsidies are wrong, and I will do what I can to make it inconvenient for any Government to bring in subsidies of this character. It has
    484
    been the accepted policy of a very great number of Members at the earliest possible moment to repeal this subsidy and deal with sugar-beet in a proper method.
    I suppose the Minister will use as an excuse or reason for this 11 months the fact that this committee of inquiry has been going on. I do not think the House of Commons wants committees of inquiry. What we want is action. It would have been simple and easy to have repealed the whole of this matter and to have put on a duty. It would net have been necessary to have had this Bill, or awkwardness at this time of the night. What was necessary could have been done under the Budget. There is plenty of ability in the Ministry and among Members of the Government to decide these things without any committee of inquiry, which only wastes time in making reports. This is a thing which nine-tenths of the Members of this House could settle straight away by a duty on foreign imports, and a bounty on English and Colonial sugar. I regret that the time of the House should be taken up by a Measure of this kind, when a simple Clause in the Budget would have dealt with the whole thing.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid that I have allowed the hon. Member to go on too long.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Naturally I do not desire to discuss anything which has to do with the Budget, but I object to the extension of the period in this way by the Government. I know that the Government have a lot of docile followers who, if the period had been 11 or 32 months, would, in all probability, vote for it in the hope that the best thing would turn up. The Government have done so many good things that it is almost impossible, when you get a Clause of this sort, for one to realise that they are doing wrong. The Government are making a fundamental blunder.
    10.33 p.m.
    Mr. ELLIOT: I am sure we all realise that at this time of the evening some-thing rises in the head of my hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) like wine. We, who have admired his skill in opposition cannot reasonably complain if, from time to time, he gives us a dose of the medicine

    485
    which he has administered in such liberal doses to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. We think that he has, perhaps, not shown his full technical skill, though all his wonted Parliamentary skill has appeared in the skilful manner with which he discussed a new Clause in the Budget, the suggested introduction of a bounty system, a preference for Dominion sugar and several other subjects equally remote from the matter under discussion. Although he was able to show good Parliamentary skill, he confirmed, I am afraid, the statement he made earlier this evening, that there were very few agriculturists in the great Division of Torquay which he represents. The great sugar-beet areas of Torquay have, no doubt, escaped his attention. The times at which sugar-beet is lifted in Torquay, owing, no doubt, to their taking place in the remote parts of the town, have not been brought to his attention, and therefore he thinks that the period of 11 months is due to some political technicality, not realising that it is founded on fact.
    The period was chosen by practical men who have had experience of the working of the Act and in accordance with the run of the seasons, not with any nefarious intention by His Majesty's Government. The proposal to extend the subsidy for 11 months is in order to bring the statutory year into line with the actual manufacturing campaign. When the Act of 1925 was drawn up with the support of the hon. Member for Torquay, the practical aspects of the industry had not assumed a settled condition and no sugar or molasses were manufactured before 1st October, but there have been occasions since when the season has finished in January and some factories have commenced operations during the last half of September: possibly the tourist season in Torquay has obscured this fact from the hon. Member. In 1933 manufacture began in the autumn of that year and ran to the autumn of 1934, so that sugar-beet planted in the spring of 1934 and harvested before the autumn of that year would qualify for subsidy at the rate intended for the 1933 crop. That has led, on occasion, to a decrease in the subsidy rate, but by agreement with the Department the factories have refrained from claiming the subsidy at the higher rate to which they were legally but not morally entitled. I am
    486
    sure that such a stickler for procedure as the hon. Member will agree that to ask factories to waive rights to which they are entitled under the Statute is toally wrong and that it is desirable to bring the Statute into accord with the facts of the case, which is what we are doing in this case. That is why the present Bill proposes to terminate on the 31st October instead of the 30th September, 1935, and thus avoid a recurrence of that situation. I hope he will agree that I have done my utmost to meet his point and will be satisfied with the explanation I have been able to give.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to certain factories and their claims, the position as to their claims at different dates, the 31st August and the 30th September. Suppose he had taken it for the extra month—I am trying to bring myself into line so that I can vote for the Clause-can he say what he would save by getting the extra month? If he can give us the figure in actual cash, I shall be much more satisfied.
    Mr. ELLIOT: The bon. Member will agree that factory owners should not make claims which they are not entitled to make. Nobody would be more indignant than the hon. Member if I made a prophecy which I could not substantiate. I merely say that there is a loophole for irregularities and that we are closing that loophole. If we had not done so, I am sure that we should have heard from the hon. Member on some future occasion. The hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. Leonard) spoke on the position of the Clause as a whole. It is extremely difficult to argue in favour of the Clause without recapitulating arguments which were used on the Second Reading. The whole position of the British sugar industry is at present under inquiry. The Bill continues the subsidy during that period. I think none of us would wish by deleting this Clause to throw operations in the sugar-growing districts into chaos and cause widespread unemployment in areas of the country which have little other resource. The general arguments have been threshed out ad nauseam, and it is because repeated defences of the proposed operations by Governments of many complexions have not brought full conviction

    487
    to the House or the country that the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised an inquiry under Mr. Wilfrid Greene, which is now sitting and the report of which we shall have, before we set this industry on a permanent basis. I do not think there is any specific point on which I can reasonably answer the hon. Member. The points which have been raised are points which concern the whole working of the sugar scheme and can only be dealt with when we have the report of the impartial inquiry which is going fully into the matter under very wide terms of reference.
    10.42 p.m.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I do not think that the advantages of democratic government are shown very clearly by the discussions which are introduced by the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), which seem to be mere fooling, to use a term which I think he used himself. This Clause raises a serious point. Under it, the Government purport to continue for a further period the subsidy to this industry. Over two years ago an undertaking was given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that before the period of the subsidy expired, under the then existing Act, a full inquiry would be made and the result of that inquiry would be laid before the House of Commons in order that the House might determine whether the subsidy should continue or not. If this Clause were not passed and if chaos were to supervene in the industry, the responsibility would be solely that of the Government. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say to the Committee, "You must pass this Clause or there will be trouble in the industry," -when the Government have purposely and designedly held up this inquiry for their own reasons. They have done so in, order that they might enter into negotiation with the large sugar industries in this country to try to get out a scheme which they could present as a completed scheme to the Wilfrid Greene Committee so that the House of Commons would not have the proper opportunity to which it is entitled, before it discussed a problem of this gravity.
    This is a singular breach of undertakings given to this House by His Majesty's Government, and we protest
    488
    violently against that procedure. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, categorically, is it not a fact that as early as the beginning of 1933 he and his Department were discussing in detail with the interests concerned in the sugar industry the substitution for this continuance of subsidy of another scheme by which a levy should be made upon sugar for the benefit of the sugar interests. I ask him whether that scheme has not been discussed and worked out in the intervening time before the Wilfrid Greene Committee was set up to inquire into the whole matter. I ask him whether the delay has not been for the purpose of having this matter discussed, naturally behind closed doors, and with all the interests in the trade, and whether he thinks it fair, while those discussions are being so conducted and while the Government are refusing to implement their pledge, to come to the Committee and ask them to vote a large sum to continue this subsidy. In our opinion it is not a fair procedure. The right hon. Gentleman should have said, if it be the fact, that some other arrangement was being contemplated and that this was a temporary measure which the Government intended to substitute by some other means or method, which would be linked up with the marketing scheme which has recently been discussed and reports of which have appeared in the Press. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to state categorically "aye" or "no" if such discussions have been proceeding since the beginning of 1933, and why, if those discussions were proceeding, was not the Wilfrid Greene Committee set up at the beginning of 1933.
    10.46 p.m.
    Mr. MALALIEU: We have listened to an extraordinarily interesting and amusing speech from the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), and there is only one reason for which I regret the speech. That is because it enabled the Minister of Agriculture to get away with a speech not giving a single reason why this Clause should be accepted, in spite of the weighty criticism that had been levelled at it by the hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. Leonard). I hope we shall have some answer to the pertinent question put by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps). A good many of

    489
    us have been most alarmed at the delay which has been shown in the appointment of the Wilfrid Greene Committee. Some definite answer should be given by the Minister of Agriculture before he asks us to vote upon this Clause. This day will be memorable to many Members of the Committee. The first part of the day we were discussing the economies of glut in one way, and now we are being called upon to discuss the economics of glut in a different way. In the first case, the Government were trying to do away with some of the glut of milk, and now, owing to the fact that most European countries have been subsidising the production of sugar at home until there is a complete glut, the Government are asking us to go still further and continue a subsidy which will make the glut even worse; and this in spite of the complete dislocation which this subsidy must cause and continue to cause in many of the sugar-growing Colonies for which we profess to have so much respect—that is, for which some of us have so much respect, and for which the Conservative party and the National party only profess respect.
    Mr. ELLIOT: What form does the hon. Gentleman's respect take?
    Mr. MALLALIEU: The respect which my party always has taken of leading them along the path of freedom, in the teeth of hot Conservative opposition for the most part. It has not been to encourage them to prey upon other members of the Empire, nor indeed has it been in the form of discouraging the natural production on their land by unnatural production on our land.
    Mr. ELLIOT: Would the hon. Gentleman sweep away all the preference given to the sugar-growing Colonies?
    Mr. MALLALIEU: I did not say that we would do that. What I said was that I would not hinder the Colonies by the un-economic production of sugar in this country, which is a different thing.
    Mr. ELLIOT: The hon. Gentleman would not give them any financial assistance?
    Mr. MALLALIEU: I certainly would not. I do not believe in subsidies. It is there where I differ from the right hon. Gentleman. I do not deny that this subsidy, if continued, will continue to put a
    490
    certain amount of benefit into the pockets of a very limited class of the community. There are a certain number of companies which own factories which are making a very good thing out of the subsidy. There are also some companies which are so inefficient that they cannot make proper profit, even with the vast subsidies that have been given. Nevertheless, I am bound to admit that some have made very good profits as the result of the largesse which this Government seeks to continue by this Clause to certain of the companies. I do not deny that there has been a certain amount of employment given, again in very limited areas in this country, as the result of the subsidy. But from all other points of view, especially from the point of view of the dislocation the subsidy has caused in the Colonies to which I referred, surely the whole thing has been a most lamentable and complete failure. In passing this Clause we are also doing something else. We are not only continuing the subsidy, but we are depriving the Exchequer of sums which would have been paid into the Exchequer were the sugar imported from foreign countries or from the Colonies. Therefore, there is this two-fold way in which the country is being mulcted merely for the uneconomic production of sugar in this country. It is not so long ago since the President of the Board of Trade showed up the whole folly of this subsidy which we are asked to continue.
    The CHAIRMAN: I think that I must stop this discussion going on on the lines of a Second Reading Debate on the Bill. It is perfectly true that very often it happens with the first or some other Clause of a Bill that technically it is not irrelevant to discuss the whole principle of the Bill. Within certain limits that may be reasonable for a speech or two at the beginning, but it is, in my opinion, an abuse of the procedure of the House to have a Second Reading Debate on any Clause of the Bill in Committee and I do not propose to allow it.
    Mr. MALLALIEU: I am bound to bow to your Ruling, but it does seem to me exceedingly difficult to discuss whether or not a subsidy should be continued unless one is to say whether the subsidy is a good thing in itself in the first place.
    The CHAIRMAN: That is exactly what I say is not in order—to discuss the principle of the subsidy, whether it is good or not.
    Mr. MALLALIEU: I am endeavouring to discuss the question whether or not this subsidy should be continued, and I have attempted to limit my remarks to that question alone. I was pointing out in the opening remarks of my speech that things have not been made any easier for those of us who criticise the Bill—indeed, for those who support it—by the fact that the Committee to which reference has been made was not appointed earlier. We do not know whether—to use the words of the President of the Board of Trade in 1927—we are simply squandering the national money over two continents. We cannot debate seriously the question that we really have to debate, to decide whether or not this Clause should be accepted. We simply do not know if we are throwing money away with both hands. As he said, with reference to this very subsidy, we are getting no adequate return and we do not know whether it is still "the worst example of crazy finance" he has ever known. Those are the words of the President of the Board of Trade. All the time we have had delay for months on end by this great master of men, the Minister of Agriculture, who could not find time to appoint a committee to enlighten the country on these important matters. Yet only a few weeks ago he was administering some sort of rebuke to his seniors in the Cabinet because they were not sufficiently active. I suppose he thought that the country would replace them by him [lnterruption]——
    The CHAIRMAN: I must warn the bon. Member of the Ruling I have already given, and I must ask him not to proceed with a Second Beading speech.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: Are we not justified in saying that this particular subsidy should not be extended for 10 months?
    The CHAIRMAN: I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Baronet bas heard my Ruling, but I endeavoured to make it perfectly plain that I was not going to allow any further discussion on the Question that Clause 1 stand part
    492
    of the Bill on the lines of a Second Reading debate on the principle of the Bill. I adhere to that Ruling. I ask the hon. Member in possession of the Floor to adhere to it.
    Mr. ATTLEE: On that point of Order, may I ask whether, in discussing a Clause of a Bill, one is not entitled to discuss the principle of the Clause? The essential principle of this Clause is, whether this subsidy should be continued, and I take it one is perfectly in order in giving reasons as to why this extension should or should not be made.
    The CHAIRMAN: That depends entirely on whether such reasons come within what was the very clear and definite Ruling which I have just given
    Mr. MALLALIEU: I really will attempt to keep within your Ruling, Sir Dennis. The difficulty I am in is that I am asked to discuss—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Well, we feel it our duty to discuss the vast sums of money which it is suggested we should throw away. We cannot tell whether this subsidy ought to be continued. We have our own suspicions, based upon the experience of past years, but the Government have deliberately foiled all attempts to have an impartial investigation of this question.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now offending against another rule by repeating what he has said. He has had an opportunity of saying what he wants to say on Second Reading—he may have done so—but he must not do so now.
    Mr. MALLALIEU: I will endeavour not to repeat myself. I would remind the Minister of Agriculture of the very important question put to him by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) and ask him to give a definite reply. If he will do so I will leave him time to reply.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: Are we not to have a reply from the Minister to the questions put to him? He appears to be bubbling over with anxiety to reply to questions not put to him, but is not prepared to answer questions which are addressed to him. I will sit down immediately if he gives us an assurance that he will reply.
    Mr. ELLIOT: Surely it is clear to the Committee that within the next few minutes it will be quite impossible for me to reply. [HON. MEMBERS: "Tomorrow."] Well, I shall be pleased to do so. I was intending no discourtesy either to the Committee or to my hon. Friends below the Gangway opposite or to my hon. Friends above the Gangway who have put questions, but it would require more than the two minutes so generously conceded by my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Mallalieu) to reply to these questions. I can only say in answer to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) that I have a full and complete reply which I shall be pleased to communicate to him and the House. I have a complete answer to the suggestions made that some underhand work is going on—not made by him, I agree, but by others, including the Cooperative Congress. The organisation which is being proceeded with under the Marketing Act of 1931 is an organisation of which the House is very well aware. It has been explained to the House time and again in answer to questions by my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Sir G. Fox) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Colonel Chapman). It will be perfectly
    494
    possible to show that the House has been kept acquainted at every stage with these proposals for organisation, but I do not think it is possible to do it in ten seconds.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I am glad to have the assurance that we shall have a full reply on these points. There is another point on which we have had no explanation, and that is why there has been a departure from the pledge given to the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this subsidy should not be extended until we had a full report from the Committee. The House is entitled to have the Chancellor here to explain, because the word of a Minister is very important.
    It being Eleven of the Clock, the CHAIBMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved,
  "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at One Minute after Eleven o'Clock.

  GREYHOUND RACING (BETTING FACILITIES, SCOTLAND).
  GREYHOUND RACING (BETTING FACILITIES, SCOTLAND).
NATIONAL FINANCE.
  ESTATE DUTY (AGRICULTURAL LAND).
  ESTATE DUTY (AGRICULTURAL LAND).
  PLAYING CARDS (CUSTOMS DUTY).
  PLAYING CARDS (CUSTOMS DUTY).
  DEFENCE EXPENDITURE.
  DEFENCE EXPENDITURE.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (LONG-ROOM DUTIES).
  CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (LONG-ROOM DUTIES).
  COLONIAL OFFICE (STAFF).
  COLONIAL OFFICE (STAFF).
  MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE (STAFF).
  MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE (STAFF).
  COTTON CLOTH (WEAVING TESTS).
  COTTON CLOTH (WEAVING TESTS).
  LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANIES (FRAUDULENT PRACTICES).
  LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANIES (FRAUDULENT PRACTICES).
  PENNY POSTAGE.
  PENNY POSTAGE.
  ROYAL NAVY AND ROYAL MARINES (BOYS AND MEN ENTERED).
  ROYAL NAVY AND ROYAL MARINES (BOYS AND MEN ENTERED).
  WOMEN POLICE.
  WOMEN POLICE.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
WESTON-SUPER-MARE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Read 2a
NORTH LINDSEY WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
TYNEMOUTH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
TORQUAY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

ROAD TRAFFIC (COMPENSATION FOR ACCIDENTS) BILL. [H.L.]
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to enable persons injured on the road by a motor vehicle (other than motorists themselves) to recover compensation, in certain cases, without proof of negligence on the part of the defendant; and to make other provision in connection with the matters aforesaid. I move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Danesfort.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

CLYDEBANK AND DISTRICT WATER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Considered on Report (according to Order).
IRVINE AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Considered on Report (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LEEK) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WYCOMBE AND DISTRICT JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).

POST OFFICE (SITES) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, it will not, fortunately, be necessary for me to detain you in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. The Bill is in the usual form, but it concerns only one site—namely, that which lies between the Central Telegraph Office and King Edward Street, E.C., and adjoins premises already owned by the Post Office in King Edward Street, Angel Street, and Roman Bath Street. It is put forward in order to increase the accommodation necessary for housing the Department of the Chief Engineer, which for many years past has been in a very unsatisfactory position. In 1925 the situation was eased for a time by the renting of a large. building known as Alder House, but in spite of this the Department continued to grow, as I am afraid these Departments do, and the result is that at the present time the Department of the Chief Engineer of the Post Office is housed in no fewer than seven different buildings, some from 200 to 300 yards away from Alder House. The total staff to be housed is about 1,060.
It is desired to end this extravagant arrangement by Christmas, 1938, by which time there is a break in the lease of Alder House premises, and it is therefore necessary to acquire the new site at an early date. Several of the occupiers are unwilling sellers and it will not therefore be possible to acquire the new site without compulsory powers. As regards cost, the valuation of the site according to an Inland Revenue estimate is £151,650 and according to an estimate of His Majesty's Office of Works the total cost of acquiring the site

651
will be £155,000. The rough estimate of the cost of building is £282,000. I may say that this expenditure will be met by a Post Office loan and not by money voted by Parliament. As regards the annual cost of the proposed scheme, allowing for the interest on the cost of the site and for interest and depreciation on the cost of the building, it is estimated that the annual cost will be £16,705. But against this the saving of rent will be £18,657 and the rental value of excess accommodation in the new building amounts to £15,000. I see the noble Lord, Lord Banbury, in his place and I am sure he will be glad to hear that the Government think they will be able to save roughly £17,000 a year by this arrangement.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I hope you will continue to do that to a still greater extent.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: I need only add that agreement has been reached with the several public authorities having interests in the Bill and they do not oppose it. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed.

WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION (COAL MINES) BILL.
Order of the day for the House to be put into Committee read.
LORD ROCKLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Rockley.)
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I do not wish it to be thought that I object to the principle of the Bill and the last thing I would suggest is that the noble Lord in charge of it is responsible for the drafting of the measure. But I think I ought to draw the attention of the noble Lord to the great alterations which are suggested by the Amendments placed on the Paper by the noble Lord. The Bill as it has come up from another place consists of about 360 lines in six clauses. Of these it is now proposed to invite your Lordships to omit something
652
like 200 of these lines and to insert about 200 new lines leaving only about 167 lines of the original Bill. If any illustration was required of the necessity for this House I do not think you could have a better example. The Bill requires revision from one end to the other and that is admitted by the promoters. Whilst the principle of the Bill ought to be accepted, I am going to move a few small verbal alterations, and I thought it right at this stage to draw the attention of the House to the great changes that will be made in the text of the Bill if the noble Lord's Amendments are carried.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Insurance of owners of coal mines against liability to their workmen.
1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the owner of a coal mine shall not, at any time, employ any workmen for the purposes of that mine unless there is in force between the owner and an authorised insurer a contract of insurance insuring the owner against all liability under the principal Act to those workmen in respect of their employment by him for those purposes in the course of some period current at that time:
Provided that, for the purposes of this subsection, a contract of insurance shall not be taken to be other than a contract insuring the owner against all such liability as aforesaid by reason only that the indemnity afforded by the contract does not, in the case of any injury by accident or disease resulting in incapacity for work, extend to payments by way of compensation in respect of the incapacity which become payable before the expiration of a period of twenty-six weeks from the date on which the incapacity begins, other than payments which are outstanding at the time of, or become payable after the happening of any of the following events, that is to say:—

(a) the owner becoming bankrupt or making a composition or arrangement with his creditors; or

(b) if the owner is a company, the company commencing to be wound up, or a receiver or manager of the company's business or undertaking being duly appointed, or possession being taken, by or on behalf of the holders of debentures secured by a floating charge, of any property of the company comprised in, or subject to, the charge.

(2) If the owner of a coal mine employs any workmen in contravention of this section, he shall, for each week in the course of which he so employs workmen at any time, be liable on summary conviction to

653
imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds, or to both such imprisonment and such fine; and where an offence under this section committed by a corporation is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to have been facilitated by any neglect on the part of, any director, manager, secretary or other officer of the corporation, he, as well as the corporation, shall be deemed to be guilty of that offence and shall he liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly:
Provided that where any person is charged with an offence under this section in respect of the employment of workmen at any time for the purposes of a coal mine by the owner thereof, it shall be a defence to prove that at that time—

(a) there was in force an instrument (hereafter in this Act referred to as "a compensation trust") conforming with the requirements of the Schedule to this Act, for securing by means of a special trust fund the discharge of all the owner's liability under the principal Act to workmen in respect of their employment by him for the purposes of that mine in the course of some period current at that time; and

(b) all the owner's obligations for the time being under the compensation trust had been discharged.

In this subsection the expression "week" means a period of seven consecutive days beginning on Sunday.
(3) The trustees under any compensation trust shall be deemed to be trustees not only for the owner of the coal mine and his legal personal representative, if ally, but also fur the workmen, and the due administration of the trust shall be enforceable accordingly, and the provisions contained in a compensation trust in accordance with the Schedule to this Act shall be valid, notwithstanding any rule against perpetuities.
(4) In this section the expression "authorised insurer" means—

(a) an insurance company or an underwriter in whose case the requirements of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909, with respect to deposits by assurance companies and deposits and guarantees by underwriters are complied with; or

(b) a mutual indemnity association;

so, however, that a mutual indemnity association formed after the end of the year nineteen hundred and thirty-three shall he deemed, for the purposes of this section, not to be an authorised insurer unless the association has deposited the sum of twenty thousand pounds with tile Accountant General of the Supreme Court in pursuance of the following provisions of this Act.
LORD GAINFORD LORD GAINFORD moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "for the purposes of" and insers "in or about." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is really one of a legal character, dealing
654
with a drafting point. The noble Lord, Lord Rockley, seeks to alter the words in the original Bill and to insert new words, as indicated by the Amendment Paper, so that the subsection would read "for the purposes of the undertaking carried on at that mine." The words in the Bill, "for the purposes of," are quite vague. They are not Parliamentary words at all, they are not applicable to coal mines, and we have to go to the Coal Mines Act, 1911, where we find in Section 80 these words:
"Where, in or about any mine, whether above or below ground, any accident occurs…"
The words I want to introduce are the words that appear in that Act, "in or about" the mine. Everybody in the coal trade knows who the men are employed in or about a mine. They would not know who the men might be, if they were referred to in a part of this clause coming after such vague words as "for the purposes of."
As an illustration of my point, it might be to the interest of a coal owner to cut wood "for the purposes of" obtaining pit props or some other purpose; but if he did that, we will say in a plantation some distance away, it would obviously be "for the purposes of" the mine, but the men employed "in or about" the mine would not be so employed. The Act of 1911 states quite clearly who are the people who are intended to be covered—all those people who are on the wage lists connected with the colliery. There is no justification for the words adopted by the noble Lord. The noble Lord later on, in the Definition Clause, adopts the words of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, and therefore this Amendment is quite consistent with the Bill in that respect.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 8, leave out ("for the purposes of") and insert ("in or about").— (Lord Gainford.)
LORD ROCKLEY: Referring in the first instance to what Lord Gainford said about the alterations in this Bill, I quite appreciate his remarks that, though I moved the Second Reading, I was not responsible for the drafting originally. But I would certainly endorse and emphasise his observation that the number of Amendments to the Bill that may be

655
necessary in this House shows how very valuable the revising functions of your Lordships' House are. Anybody who wished to argue that a Second Chamber was necessary could not have a better illustration than in this Bill, which is wholly non-Party and yet requires so much amendment after it has left the House of Commons.
As to the specific Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, I quite appreciate that these words are used in the Coal Mines Act of 1911, but I understand that there is some doubt legally whether they are the best possible words to use, and the words which I am proposing—"for the purposes of the undertaking carried on at that mine"—are an effort to come to a compromise on this rather difficult interpretation. Whatever words are used I presume would be inserted by insurance companies and mutual indemnity associations in regard to the cover which they give to coal owners, and the words actually used in such documents now, I am told, differ widely. It seems therefore desirable that we should endeavour to use the best possible words in this Bill that we can arrive at. While I think I must for the moment press that the words which stand in my name should be here inserted, because they are also inserted in Amendments to other parts of the Bill, which would make it a little difficult at the moment to change them, I am quite willing to leave the matter open for further consideration on Report.
LORD GAINFORD: The words which the noble Lord has suggested are absolutely vague. The Coal Mines Act of 1911 defines who are the men "in or about" a mine. This is a Compensation Bill for coal mines, and therefore it is absolutely important that we should now insert the proper words, for the legal definition of the men employed "in or about" a mine. These words are known, they are understood by the Home Office. they are understood by everyone in the trade, whereas the words which the noble Lord proposes would extend to a great number of people employed in different kinds of work connected with the purposes of the colliery and yet quite outside the colliery. If the noble Lord desires at a later stage to deal further with the matter he may do so,
656
but at the moment I wish to press my Amendment.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I would remind your Lordships that the expression "in or about" contained in the noble Lord's Amendment was carefully considered when the Bill was drafted, and at that time those words were rejected on the ground that they were of too geographical a nature and might be held to exclude men actually employed in connection with the mining part of the undertaking at some place not actually on the mine premises. On the other hand, at that time it was felt it would not be right to compel a colliery company to insure in respect of men employed, not for the purposes of the mine, but in some other industry such as iron and steel works or shipping, and the plan adopted in drafting the Bill was to require insurance in respect of men employed "for the purposes of" the mine and to define men in such a way as specifically to exclude any part of the mine premises in which the manufacturing part of the undertaking is carried on. In these circumstances the Government have been advised that it could hardly be held that the Bill applied in respect of the employment of workmen for the purposes of the manufacturing part of an undertaking, still less could it be directed to workmen employed on ships run not merely for the purposes of the mine but as shipping undertakings, although under the same company. Although the Government approve of the principle of the Amendment, they feel that the words proposed by Lord Rockley would fulfil the purpose better than the words of the noble Lord opposite.
LORD GAINFORD: After all, I have some knowledge of this subject, and I repeat that the words in the Bill are much too vague. The men employed "in or about" the mine come within the jurisdiction of His Majesty's inspectors of mines, and they include all the men who are shunters and engine-men and anyone who works at a colliery whether above ground or below ground. Therefore, it seems to me only right that at this stage we should put in words which are understood by everyone in the trade and understood by the workmen them-

657
selves, and not introduce these slovenly words which may open the door for other people to be included.
LORD ROCKLEY: May I point out that the noble Lord himself uses the words "for the purposes of" the mine in a subsequent Amendment on this clause Therefore, I imagine there is something to be said for the use of these words. I repeat that I am quite willing, if he win let my words stand to-day, to consider the matter further on the Report stage and see if we cannot devise better words which will please him.
LORD GAINFORD: The words "for the purposes of" the mine in my later Amendment have nothing to do with the men employed. It is because the
Resolved in the affirmative and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
LORD ROCKLEY LORD ROCKLEY moved, in subsection (1), after "for the purpose of," to insert "the undertaking carried on at." The noble Lord said: This is really an attempt to meet Lord Gainford's point. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 8, after ("of") insert ("the undertaking carried on at").—(Lord Ruckley.)
words in this case are used in relation to the particular men this Bill is intended to affect that it is important a distinction should be made.
LORD ROCKLEY: I can only hope that the noble Lord will accept my words, offered ih a spirit of compromise at this stage, with the promise that they will be carefully considered later.
LORD GAINFORD: I feel that the matter is so important that I must press it to a Division.
On Question, Whether the words proposed to be left out shall stand part of the clause?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 50; Not-Contents, 21.

CONTENTS.

Sankey, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Hereford, V.

Hardinge of Penshurst, L.

Knutsford, V.

Hindlip, L.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Jessel, L. [Teller.]

Addington, L.

Kilmaine, L.

Bathurst, E.

Amulree, L

Kylsant, L.

Bradford, E.

Askwith, L.

Lamington, L.

Feversham, E.

Atkin, L.

Latymer, L.

Fortescue, E.

Banbury of Southam, L.

Merrivale, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Biddulph, L.

Mildmay of Flete, L.

Lucan, E.

Boston, L.

Oxenfoord, L. (E. Stair.)

Mar and Kellie, E.

Carrington, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Munster, E.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Redesdale, L.

Peel, E.

Rennell, L.

Plymouth, E.

Conway of Allington, L.

Rockley, L. [Teller.]

Cranworth, L.

Strathoona and Mount Royal, L.

Astor, V.

Danesfort, L.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Daryngton, L.

Templemore, L.

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Ellenborough, L.

Woodbridge, L.

Hailsham, V.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

NOT-CONTENTS.

Reading, M.

Mersey, V.

Hutchison of Montroes, L.

Illingworth, L.

Buxton, E.

Arnold, L.

Polwarth, L.

Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

Clwyd, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Denman, L.

Rhayader, L. [Teller.]

Dudley, E.

Ernle, L.

Sanderson, L.

Gainford, L. [Teller.]

Stanmore, L.

Esher, V.

Greville, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Strachie, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY LORD ROCKLEY moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "force" down to the proviso and insert "either—

(a) a contract of insurance subscribed by an authorised insurer, being a contract which (subject to the exception mentioned in the next following subsection) insures the owner against all liability under the principal Act in respect of the employment of workmen by him or any other person for those purposes at that time; or

659

(b) an instrument (hereafter in this Act referred to as a 'compensation trust'), conforming with the requirements of the Schedule to this Act, for securing by means of a special trust fund the discharge of all the owner's liability under the principal Act in respect of the employment of workmen as mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection."

The noble Lord said: This is purely a drafting Amendment except that it puts the compensation trust on the same footing as the two permitted methods of insurance. In so far as the proof of the commission of an offence is concerned, I would note that the owner is responsible for the insurance of workmen employed by contractors, and this Amendment is to make quite clear that the whole extent of the owner's liability under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925, is included in this Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page line 9, leave out from ("force") to the end of line 13, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY LORD ROCKLEY rose to move the omission of all words in the proviso in subsection (1) down to and including "outstanding" and to insert:
"(2) The exception allowed by paragraph (a) of the foregoing subsection is as follows, that is to say, that the indemnity afforded by the contract of insurance need not, in the case of any injury by accident or disease resulting in incapacity for work, extend to payments of compensation in respect of the incapacity which become payable before the expiration of a period of twenty-six weeks from the date on which the incapacity begins, other than payments which are due."
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: Perhaps I had better say at once that I have had handed to me a manuscript Amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, which, if your Lordships accept it, will entail a number of other manuscript Amendments in other clauses consequential thereto. Perhaps I had better read the manuscript Amendment. It is to strike out of the proposed new subsection the word "incapacity," in line 6 and the words that follow, in order to insert the words "total or partial incapacity for the first twenty-six weeks of such incapacity."
LORD ROCKLEY: I was under the impression that this was only a drafting Amendment and that it would be dealt with accordingly. It has been carefully
660
considered by the interests concerned and I did not know that there was any serious objection to the words proposed.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 14, leave out from the beginning of the line to ("at") in line 6 on page 2 and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Rockley.)
LORD GAINFORD LORD GAINFORD moved to leave out of the proposed new subsection the first "incapacity" and all words thereafter and to insert the words "total or partial incapacity for the first twenty-six weeks of such incapacity." The noble Lord said: I quite appreciate the intention of the noble Lord in moving this Amendment, but this is a technical matter and I think he does not appreciate that the words he proposes would not apply to existing conditions under the law. At the present time if a man is injured and is away from work, say, for three weeks and then is given a light job for three weeks but is again incapacitated owing to the original injury, he is paid for the whole period of incapacity even if the twenty-six weeks is not a continuous period. Even if there are breaks in the period he can still claim to be paid compensation by the employer for twenty-six weeks. Hewould be paid even though the broken periods of incapacity extended over a year instead of being twenty-six consecutive weeks which the noble Lord's words would cover.
The words which I propose would enable a man to get his full compensation for twenty-six weeks even if there were a series of breaks during that period when he was receiving full wages or partial wages. It is the custom in the industry to pay compensation to a man and then, if on a doctor's certificate that he can work he goes back to work for a time but breaks down again owing to the original injury, he is compensated, not by an insurance company, but by the employer. It is in order to meet the case of breaks in a period of incapacity that it is necessary to insert the words which I propose and I hope that the noble Lord will accept them.
Amendment to the proposed new subsection moved—
Line 6, leave out all words after ("the") to the end of the subsection and insert ("total or partial incapacity for the first twenty-six weeks of such incapacity").—(Lord Gainford.)
LORD ROCKLEY: I feel some difficulty in arguing this matter with the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, but I understand that his proposal has been carefully considered by the parties chiefly concerned and has been turned down. It would be very helpful if we could have legal opinion on the matter, because I am not quite sure of the effect of shortening the period as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Gainford. I am informed that the matter has been carefully considered by technical authorities, who think the other wording is better.
LORD GAINFORD: I am sorry to disagree with the noble Lord, but I know what I am talking about and his words do not meet the case of breaks in a period of incapacity. It is in order to protect the workman and to prevent him being deprived of full compensation in the event of going back to work that I ask that these words be inserted. It is in the interests of the workman and of everybody concerned. I do hope that the noble Lord will accept this Amendment because I have taken the best legal advice I can and I am assured that it is in the interests of the men that it should be made.
LORD ATKIN: I should like to suggest to my noble friend that he should bring up this Amendment again after giving notice so that we might have the opportunity of considering it. It is difficult to deal with an Amendment of this character as a manuscript Amendment which we have not had before us. The Amendment moved by Lord Rokley is a drafting Amendment to carry out what was agreed to in another place. If we are to consider another proposal I think it would be better to have the Amendment before us.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I hope my noble friend will agree to the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord. It is extraordinarily difficult to pronounce a legal opinion upon an intricate matter of this kind without having the words before us.
LORD GAINFORD: In the circumstances I will withdraw my Amendment now, and put it down on Report.
Amendment to the proposed new subsection, by leave, withdrawn.
On. Question, original Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY: The next three Amendments on the Paper are drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 2, line 27, leave out ("is proved to have") and insert ("has")
Page 2, line 28, leave out from the second ("or") to ("facilitated") in line 29.
Page 2, line 34, leave out from the beginning, to the end of line 5 on page 3.—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY LORD ROCKLEY moved to leave out subsection (3). The noble Lord said: move to leave out this subsection because it deals with a matter for which provision is made in a new clause which I shall move be inserted after Clause 4.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 8, leave out subsection (3).—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD GAINFORD LORD GAINFORD moved, in subsection (4), to substitute "nineteen hundred and thirty-four" for "nineteen hundred and thirty-three." The noble Lord said: As I explained on Second Reading, this Amendment is necessary to enable the Bill to operate fairly in regard to existing companies. The Bill as drafted would not give mutual indemnity associations a fair opportunity of setting their house in order before the end of the year. There are only three of them and they are large, substantial concerns which can deal with the situation between now and the end of the year. This is a retrospective measure. These three large companies are quite prepared to do what is necessary between now and the end of the year, and in order that they should be dealt with fairly is necessary that the date should be changed to 1934. The main argument for the provision that a sum of £20,000 should be deposited was that it was necessary in order to prevent the mushroom growth of little associations, but if you penalise existing concerns by asking them to deposit £20,000 before the Bill comes into operation you will be doing something which is grossly unfair. It would only lock up money and instead of helping insurance it would have the reverse effect.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 27, leave out ("three") and insert ("four").—(Lord Gainford.)
LORD ROCKLEY: On this matter I understand from the noble Lord who has moved this Amendment that there are only two or three indemnity associations which are really concerned with this Amendment, one in North Staffordshire, one in Lancashire, and one, I think, in Cumberland. Against the Amendment it should be pointed out that the £20,000 to which the noble Lord referred, when deposited, will still form a part of the association's reserves, although of course it can only be used in the event of liquidation. It should not therefore be necessary for those associations to start with a larger initial reserve merely and solely because of the fact that £20,000 of their reserve money will be deposited with the Supreme Court rather than with their own bankers. The reason for this provision is that it is naturally desired to hinder the formation of new mutual indemnity associations which might not have adequate financial resources. It must be obvious that if this Amendment were passed, possibly some associations unsound financially might be formed, and associations of that nature would be a very real danger. That is the reason why I think the noble Lord's Amendment would be a mistake.
I would like to add, again with some diffidence, in regard to those special cases, that where the whole situation is quite bona fide, I believe it would be possible for the bodies concerned to alter their articles of association and to meet the case by that means. It is not a very difficult matter to alter articles of association. They need not re-form themselves into a new association. If they are already existing they have merely to go to the High Court and go through the usual procedure to alter their articles of association to suit the position.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I should like to amplify the words which have fallen from the noble Lord behind me. I understand that the object of the noble Lord's Amendment is to exempt from making the deposit certain mutual indemnity associations formed between the end of 1933 and the date upon which this Bill is to come into operation, January 1, 1935. One should consider the object of the important provision which is at present in the Bill. At present the mutual indemnity associations are not under the obligations of ordinary insur-
664
ance companies laid down by the Assurance Companies Acts, with a view to securing their financial stability. Any small group of employers can form themselves into a mutual indemnity association.
The intention of the provision in this Bill, in Clause 1, subsection (4), is to discourage the formation of unsound mutual indemnity associations which might to some extent evade the intentions of the Bill. For example, as has been quoted, a few coal owners might comply with the letter of the law as regards compulsory insurance by forming themselves into a small mutual indemnity association with insufficient financial backing, and much evil might obviously arise in consequence of the formation of such an association. It is accordingly proposed to require a deposit from associations formed after December 31, 1933, that is, a date just before the publication of the Bill. I understand that the motive behind the noble Lord's Amendment is to enable certain coal owners to wind up their own mutual indemnity companies and form a new one without having to make a deposit. This procedure is, I understand, not necessary in order to meet the requirements of the Bill. It appears that they can simply amend their articles of association, that is, the old mutual indemnity association, for that purpose, without winding up the company and forming a new one. The procedure which they are understood to contemplate might have the advantage to the coal owners of saving them something in Income Tax, but it would obviously have the effect of weakening the resources of the mutual indemnity association, and this of course would be contrary to one of the chief objects of the Bill. Therefore, for these reasons strong objection can be taken to the Amendment, especially as it is two years since the Mining Association urged that full cover should be given, and in the opinion of His Majesty's Government the coal owners ought to have taken steps dealing with this matter previous to the end of 1933.
LORD GAINFORD: Of course, with the Government against me I shall not go to a Division, but I must protest against the suggestion that there are likely to be any mutual indemnity societies of this sort formed by coal owners between now and the end of the year. We have already told the Home

665
Office as plainly as coal owners can that by the end of the year every workman will be fully covered whether a firm goes into liquidation or not, and therefore the whole of this Bill is really unnecessary. We do not object to the principle; we want every workman to be covered properly, and it is only in the interests of three mutual indemnity societies—and quite big ones—that this Amendment is moved. I suggest that it is unnecessary that they should be compelled to put up £20,000 and be penalised in the way suggested by the Home Office. Although I think it is very unfair, I shall not go to a Division.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 [Information as to insurance to be given to workmen]:
LORD ROCKLEY: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 33, after ("of") insert ("the undertaking carried on at").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: The noble Lord, Lord Gainford, has handed in a manuscript Amendment on page 4, line 2, and also another manuscript Amendment later.
LORD GAINFORD: None of them arise.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: As none of them arise, with the noble Lord's permission I will not put them.
LORD ROCKLEY: My next Amendment is really a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 2, leave out from ("Act") to ("and") in line 6 and insert ("in respect of the employment of workmen, within a specified period current at that time, for the purposes of the undertaking carried on at the mine").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY: I beg to move the next Amendment standing in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 22, leave out from ("Act") to ("and") in line 26, and insert ("in respect of the employment of workmen, within a specified period current at that time, for the purposes of the undertaking carried on at the mine").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY: The next Amendment is purely consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 5, leave out ("by the owner").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY: The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 5, at end insert:
("Provided that where by reason of the death of a person who, at the time when the compensation trust came into force, was the owner of the coal mine to which the trust relates, his personal representative is the owner for the time being of that mine, any notice signed by the deceased owner For the purpose of paragraph (b) of this subsection shall have effect for that purpose as if it were also signed by the personal representative").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 [Effect of certain contracts of insurance]:
LORD ROCKLEY: I have nothing further to say upon the first Amendment all Clause 3.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, leave out lines 25 and 26 and insert ("in respect of the employment of workmen for the purposes of the undertaking carried on at that mine").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY: The next two Amendments are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 5, line 26, at end insert ("and in the following provisions of this section the expression 'claim to which this section applies' means, in relation to any such contract of insurance as aforesaid, any such claim under the contract as arises out of a liability under the principal Act in respect of the employment of a workman after the commencement of this Act for the purposes of the undertaking carried on at a coal mine.")
Page 5, line 32, leave out from ("claim") to the end of line 35 and insert ("to which this section applies").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY: The next is a drafting Amendment too.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 30, leave out from ("claim") to ("has") in line 43, and insert ("to which this section applies").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY LORD ROCKLEY moved to leave out subsection (4) and insert:
"(4) For the purpose of determining, as regards any liability under the principal Act in respect of employment after the commencement of this Act for the purposes of the undertaking carried on at a coal mine, whether the workman has any, and if so what, rights by virtue of subsection (1) of Section seven of the principal Act in relation to a contract of insurance to which this section applies, but for no other purpose—

(a) the insurer shall be deemed not to be, and never to have been, entitled to avoid the contract on the ground of any misrepresentation or non-disclosure of material facts on the part of the insured, or on the ground that the answer to any question required to be answered by the insured in making any proposal for the contract was false or incomplete; and

(b) any admission or agreement whereby the said liability under the principal Act was established against the insured shall be treated as binding on the insurer, notwithstanding that it was made or entered into without his authority."

The noble Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 3, leave out subsection (4) and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Rockley.)
THE MARQUESS OF READING: Would the noble Lord mind telling me how it is possible for an Amendment requiring at least three paragraphs to be merely a drafting Amendment?
LORD ROCKLEY: It is a redrafting of subsection (4) which it is hoped will read more intelligibly to noble Lords.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY: All my other Amendments to this clause are merely of a drafting nature.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: In the circumstances I will put all the remaining Amendments in the name of the noble Lord to this clause together.
Amendments moved—
Page 6, line 27, leave out from ("Where") to ("insurer") in line 30, and insert ("an")
Page 7, line 1, leave out from ("the") to the second ("may") in line 2, and insert ("appropriate court")
Page 7, line 3, after ("insured") insert ("or his estate")
Page 7, line 5, leave out ("under") and insert ("by virtue of")
Page 7, line 9, at end insert:
("In this subsection the expression 'the appropriate court' means any court having bankruptcy jurisdiction, being a court within the area of whose jurisdiction the insured resided at the time when the workman acquired rights against the insurer by virtue of subsection (1) of Section seven of the principal Act, or, if the insured is a company, any court having jurisdiction to wind up the company.")—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4 [Deposits by mutual indemnity associations]:
LORD ROCKLEY: The Amendment to this clause is merely consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 39, after the first ("of") insert ("undertakings carried on at").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
LORD ROCKLEY LORD ROCKLEY moved, after Clause (4), to insert:
Incidental provisions as to compensation trusts.
"5.—(1)The trustees under any compensation trust shall be deemed to be trustees not only for the person creating the trust and any person representing his estate, but also for the workmen to whom payments are to be made out of the trust fund, and the due administration of the trust shall he enforceable accordingly and the provisions contained in a compensation trust in accordance with the Schedule to this Act shall be valid, notwithstanding any rule against perpetuities.
(2) So much of Section sixty-seven of the County Courts Act, 1888, as limits the jurisdiction of a County Court with respect to the execution of trusts, shall not apply in relation to any compensation trust."
The noble Lord said: This is merely a new clause explaining compensation trusts.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 4, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5:
Interpretation.
5. In this Act the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say,—
"Mine" and "owner" have the meanings respectively assigned to those expressions by Section one hundred and twenty-two of the Coal Mines Act, 1911;
LORD ROCKLEY LORD ROCKLEY moved to omit the definitions of "mine" and "owner" and insert:
"'Mine,' includes every shaft in the course of being sunk, and every level and inclined plane in the course of being driven, and all the shafts, levels, planes, works, tramways and sidings, both below ground and above ground, in and adjacent to and belonging to the mine, but does not include any part of such premises on which any manufacturing process is carried on other than a process ancillary to the getting or dressing of minerals or the preparation of minerals for sale."
The noble Lord said: This is a definition Amendment of what a "mine" means, and meets with the approval of legal authorities.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, leave out lines 35 to 38, and insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Buckley.)
LORD GAINFORD: The whole of the Amendments to Clause 5 are merely reciting words which are already in the existing Act, and in the opinion of my legal advisers the Amendments are quite unnecessary. Why is it stated that those who receive a royalty are not to be included when these exceptions are not in the original Bill? I do not take exception to the noble Lord's words, but they are unnecessary.
LORD ATKIN: I quite agree with my noble friend that the addition of these words does not add to what is already in the Bill, but most of us, and especially those who construe Statutes, have an objection to legislation by reference. It is far better that, definitions should appear in the Bill, and all, as I understand, that the Amendments do is to put into the Bill words which are now in the Coal Mines Act of 1911. I think it is a very good principle.
LORD ROCKLEY: Lord Atkin has replied exactly as I had intended to reply. I think many of us who have been in the House of Commons have heard legislation by reference denounced over and over again. It is a very inconvenient practice, and Committees in the House of Commons have repeatedly denounced it. It is really to carry out the principle that we should not have legislation by reference that these Amendments are moved.
LORD GAINFORD: I quite agree as to the inconvenience of legislation by refer-
670
ence, but my observations were really intended to apply to the second Amendment of the noble Lord.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
"'Owner,' in relation to any coal mine, means any person who is the immediate proprietor or lessee or occupier of the mine or any part thereof, and in relation to a mine the business whereof is carried on by a liquidator or receiver, means the liquidator or receiver, but does not include any person who—

(a) merely receives a royalty, rent or fine from the mine; or

(b) in the case of a mine subject to any lease, grant or licence for the working thereof, is merely the proprietor of the mine; or

(c) is merely the owner of the soil and not interested in the minerals of the mine; or

(d) is merely a contractor for the working of a part of the mine or for the execution of any particular work thereat").—(Lord Rockley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Schedule:
SCHEDULE.
Requirements as to Form, Administration, and Provisions of Compensation Trusts,
7. The trust shall also provide for the following matters, that is to say—
(1) for requiring the trustees to effect, maintain, and enforce such contracts of insurance as may be necessary to cover the risk of the trustees having to make payments out of the fund by way of compensation in respect of the deaths of five or more workmen resulting from any one accident, and for securing that any sums paid to the trustees in settlement of a claim under any such contract of insurance shall form part of the fund; and
LORD ROCKLEY: All my Amendments to the Schedule are of a drafting character.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: That being so, with the permission of the Committee I will put them en bloc.
Amendments moved—
Page 10, line 7, after ("between") insert ("the person who, at the time of the execution of the deed, is")
Page 10, line 8, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 10, line 11, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")

671
Page 10, line 12, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 10, line 18, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 10, line 25, leave out from the second ("that") to ("for") in line 37, and insert ("whenever, by reason of any award or judgment against, or agreement or admission entered into or made by or on behalf of, the settlor or any person representing his estate, any sum becomes payable by way of compensation (being compensation which the settlor or his estate is liable under the principal Act to pay in respect of the employment of a workman, in the relevant period, by the settlor or any other person for the purposes of the undertaking carried on at the coal mine to which the trust relates) the trustees will, on behalf of the settlor or the person representing his estate, as the case may be, pay the amount of that sum out of the fund to the person entitled under the principal Act to receive it")
Page 11, line 3, leave out ("by the owner")
Page 11, line 7, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 11, line 11, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 11, line 12, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 11, line 14, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 11, line 33, leave out ("to meet emergencies")
Page 11, line 36, leave out ("owner's")
Page 11, line 45, leave out from ("reserve") to ("necessary") in line 46.
Page 12, line 4, leave out ("of the owner")
Page 12, line 9, leave out ("of the owner")
Page 12, line 25, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor or the person (if any) representing his estate")
Page 12, line 28, leave out ("of the owner")
Page 12, line 30, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 12, line 31, leave out from ("forthwith") to ("by") in line 32 and insert ("after any certificate has been duly transmitted")
Page 12, line 43, leave out from ("make") to ("resulting") in line 45 and insert ("out of the fund payments of compensation in excess of fifteen hundred pounds in respect of deaths of workmen").—(Lord Rockley.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD GAINFORD LORD GAINFORD moved, in paragraph 7 (1), after "deaths," to insert "in excess." The noble Lord said: I do not know whether the noble Lord in charge of the Bill understands the usual
672
practice in connection with these trust concerns. The practice is for the responsibility for the payment of compensation for the first four, five or six deaths to be undertaken by the firm itself, and that could not exceed at the outside £3,000. Therefore it is usual (and I have a policy in my hand) to insure for all in excess of five, rather than insure the whole lot at double the rate of premium which they would have to pay for a policy covering any deaths. There is no risk whatsoever run by the workmen's representative of failing to get, say, £400, £500, or £600 compensation for an accident, because it is inconceivable that any firm carrying on a colliery should not possess sufficient assets to cover that amount. Therefore the practice has grown up to reduce the rates of premium to about ninepence—or up to 1s. 8d. in the most dangerous collieries—when the employer takes all the risk of the first five deaths in an accident; whilst any serious accident endangering the lives of more men would be insured against and the premium would be just half the amount if the smaller number of deaths is excluded. It is in order to meet this general practice in connection with all insurances of this kind that I move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 45, after ("deaths") insert ("in excess").—(Lord Coinford.)
LORD ROCKLEY: I think my Amendment with regard to amounts in excess of £1,500 really meets the noble Lord's point. My Amendment says that the trust fund has to insure only for death claims which exceed £1,500 in one catastrophe. This figure is based on the fact that the average cost of a death in the mines is £300, so that it is equivalent to insurance of all deaths over five in number. It would therefore seem to be what Lord Gainford really desires to accomplish, and the Amendment meets his case.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: As the noble Lord, Lord Rockley, has just said, his Amendment to the Schedule, page 12, line 43, is, I think, a compromise and has to some extent met the point of the Amendment of the noble Lord opposite. The plan of the promoters of the Bill is simpler, inasmuch as it does not involve any averaging and other like difficulties, for the actuary can base his calculation on the assumption that anything in excess

673
of £1,500 will be recovered from the insurance company by the trustees. I am told that the official statistics show that the average cost of a death claim in the mining industry is about £300, so that £1,500 represents the normal cost of five such claims.
But I would like to point out that there is much to be said far leaving the Bill in its present form. The present position is regarded as being a reasonable and simple compromise between the representations of the coal owners and the arguments of others that the Bill should be amended in the opposite direction and that the figure "five" should be altered to "four," or three, or even (though this would be very complicated) that the trustees should be required to re-insure in respect of disablement as well as fatal cases resulting from a catastrophe causing more than a certain number of deaths or disablements. In another place there was much discussion on the question of allowing compensation trusts, and as to requiring the trustees to re-insure some of the risks, and at that time assurances were given to the miners' representatives that the provisions in the Bill as to compensation trusts offered a sound alternative to the coal miner insuring all the risks with an insurance company or a mutual indemnity association. It would appear important that the Bill should err on the side of financial soundness of the trust funds, especially as these trusts are in the nature of an experiment. I hope therefore that your Lordships will approve of the compromise that the promoters of the Bill have endeavoured to reach by not accepting the Amendment of the noble Lord opposite, but agreeing to that which your Lordships have already approved of in line 43.
LORD GAINFORD: I will not press the point, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD ROCKLEY: The remaining Amendments are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 13, line 1, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 13, line 5, leave out ("owner") and insert ("settlor")
Page 13, line 9, after ("trust") insert ("and any remuneration which by the terms of the trust is payable out of the fund to any of the trustees")
Page 13, line 10, at end insert:
("(4) for securing that all such obligations to make payments to the fund as are imposed by the trust on the settlor in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this Schedule shall, where the settlor is an individual, be binding on his estate; and")
Page 13, line 28, at end insert:
("In the application of this paragraph to a compensation trust which is governed by the law of Scotland, there shall be substituted for the reference therein to Section one of the Trustee Act, 1925, a reference to the Trusts (Scotland) Act, 1921.")
Page 13, line 34, leave out from ("means" to the end of line 41 and insert ("liability under the principal Act incurred by the settlor or any person representing his estate in respect of the employment of workmen by the settlor or any other person for the purposes of the undertaking carried on at the coal mine to which the trust relates, and the liability under the principal Act which is so incurred in respect of the employment of workmen as aforesaid in any particular period shall be taken to be the compensation liability attributable to that period")
Page 13, leave out lines 43 to 45 and insert ("being a member of one or more of the following bodies, that is to say—

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales;

The Society of incorporated Accountants and Auditors;

The Society of Accountants in Edinburgh;

The Institute of Accountants and Actuaries in Glasgow;

The Society of Accountants in Aberdeen;

The London Association of Certified Accountants, Limited;

The Corporation of Accountants, Limited").—(Lord Rockley.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

PETROLEUM (PRODUCTION) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY):My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, before we proceed to the Amendments which have been put down I should like to make an observation. I

675
do not know the procedure in your Lordships' House sufficiently well to know to what extent it is usual to have these important Amendments put down on Third Reading. Some drafting Amendments are often put down on Third Reading, but I do not remember Amendments of this importance being put down at this stage. I should like to call the attention of the noble Marquess also to the fact that I think the majority of these Amendments were rejected on Report, and were, I think, also rejected on the Committee stage. The noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, no doubt feeling liberated from the very strict procedure that is usual in another place, seems to me to be stretching the procedure in your Lordships' House to rather extreme limits.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, perhaps I may reply to what has been said by the noble Lord. I think I may say that none of these Amendments was rejected on a previous occasion. The noble Earl, Lord Dudley, will speak for himself, but, if I remember rightly, he withdrew his Amendment, hoping that something would be arrived at. I should be prepared to explain that the first of these Amendments was not one that had been put and rejected, and, as to the second one, that arose out of something on the Report stage, when it was too late to move an effective Amendment, and it is a question of new matter altogether. I therefore submit to your Lordships that in view of the fact that these are new Amendments, particularly the last one, I have not abused the procedure of your Lordships' House by putting them down.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I do not desire to discuss the exact nature of the Amendments standing in the name of Lord Rankeillour until he has expounded why they are of such a new character and why it became necessary to put them down at this stage for the first time. I confess, when I had read them, they seemed to me to be very reminiscent of discussions which had already occupied your Lordship's House for a considerable time, and in which my noble friend had been unsuccessful in persuading your Lordships to take his point of view. I do not wish to say more about the Amendments because I do not desire to say anything that would prejudice their discussion, but I would
676
agree, if I may say so, with what the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has said as to the undesirability of using the flexible procedure of your Lordships' House in the direction of putting down Amendments on Third Reading so as to turn the Third Reading into a kind of glorified Committee or Report stage. In this House, differing from another place, we have this extra latitude, this last opportunity of alteration, even after the Third Reading, on the Motion "That the Bill do pass," and it is open to a noble Lord to put down an Amendment for that stage, although we have been careful to mark the fact that this is an exceptional procedure by making it a rule that such an Amendment can never be even moved unless it has been printed and has appeared on the Order Paper. While it is a very convenient practice to have this reserve power, I think, if I may speak as one who, in some sense, is the custodian of the traditions of the House, it would be a very great misfortune if the existence of this power were utilised as an excuse for bringing up afresh and restating, with whatever ingenuity, points which had already been disposed of in Committee or on Report.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Clause 2:
Licences to search for and get petroleum.
2.—(1) The Board of Trade, on behalf of His Majesty, shall have power to grant to such persons as they think fit licences to search and bore for and get petroleum.
(2) Any such licence shall be granted for such consideration (whether by way of royalty or otherwise) as the Board of Trade with the consent of the Treasury may determine, and upon such other terms and conditions as the Board of Trade think fit.
(3) The Board of Trade shall, as soon as may be after granting a licence under this section, publish notice of the fact in the London Gazette stating the name of the licensee and the situation of the area in respect of which the licence has been granted, and, if the said area or any part thereof is in Scotland, the Board shall also publish the said notice in the Edinburgh Gazette.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY THE EARL OF DUDLEY moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert:
"Provided that where two or more separate applications are made for a licence or licences under this Act to search and bore for and get petroleum within an area or areas in which there is situate any land of which one or more of the applicants is or are the estate owner or estate owners the Board of Trade if satisfied that such

677
estate owner or such estate owners or any of them is or are able and willing to operate effectively the licence or licences for which he or they have applied shall not grant a licence to any person other than such estate owner or one of such estate owners or two or more of them jointly. For the purposes of this section and of the proviso to Section (Appeals) of this Act 'estate owner' means the owner of the legal estate in the fee simple of the land in relation to which tie expression is used."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment has never been rejected in your Lordships' House. I have moved other Amendments which were rejected, and I was careful not to put them down again at this stage. Those of your Lordships who were present at the Report stage will remember that during the discussion on this Amendment I received considerable sympathy and support from many of your Lordships in regard to the principle which it embodies. The noble Viscount the Leader of the House was good enough to assure me, although he gave no guarantee, that he would do his best between the Report stage and the Third Reading to try and find words, either in the Bill itself or in the regulations, which would embody this principle, and for that reason I did not press the Amendment to a Division. Since the Report stage the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill has been good enough to communicate with me, and a very serious attempt, I know, has been made to embody words which give force to this principle. I understand that so far the noble Marquess has not been able to find such words. The principle, I think, is obvious, and is deserving of consideration and support. The principle is that where several applications are made to the Board of Trade for a licence to bore for petroleum and one or more of these applicants are surface owners, and the surface owners concerned are able effectively to operate that petroleum, the surface owners should have a preference of being granted a licence over outside companies or persons who have no interest in the locality or in the surface. I think that is a principle which receives the sympathy of the great majority of your Lordships.
I should like to put a case to the noble Marquess. Say, for instance, a licence was granted to a company, the AngloPersian Oil Company or any other, to bore for petroleum in Derbyshire. Sup-
678
posing they operated that licence and found petroleum in commercial quantities. That would stimulate interest in the possibilities of surrounding districts where, we will say, the company in question had not applied for or been granted a licence. There would in that case be a large number of applications to the Board of Trade for licences to bore in surrounding districts. In that case I consider the surface owner or surface owners, who have probably great geological knowledge of their own district, who are in every way capable of working that petroleum, and who have great sympathy with the amenities of their district, are the right people to bore and work that petroleum, provided they can operate their licence effectively. I understand that the position is complicated by the question of multiplicity of ownership, and I do not suggest that the Board of Trade should be denied the right to limit the number of licences granted. If there are applications from several owners, surely it is easy enough to divide a district into areas and grant so many licences for the entire district, and if there is more than one application for a certain district then the Board of Trade can force the surface owners to associate and work the district as an association.
I cannot see that there is any difficulty in embodying this principle. I think it is a principle which might well be embodied in the regulations rather than in the Bill itself. I feel that the noble Marquess is in sympathy with the principle, and I am sure the noble Viscount the Leader of the House is, because he gave me the definite assurance on the Report stage that he was. I hope they will continue, when the regulations are drafted, to embody this principle in the regulations if it can possibly be done, and I see no reason why it cannot be done.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 6, at end insert the said new proviso.—(The Earl of Dudley.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I have no desire to quarrel with the noble Earl for putting this Amendment on the Paper, because I know it is one over which he is considerably exercised. He has not, if I may say so, completely and accurately stated the case,

679
because as a matter of fact the Amendment was negatived on a previous stage; it was not withdrawn. But I think your Lordships are aware that that was owing to a misunderstanding which I should like to explain. The noble Viscount who leads this House made an offer to the noble Earl which the noble Earl was willing to accept, but the Amendment was put, and my noble friend was under the impression that that offer had not been accepted. That is one of the reasons why there is no Amendment on the Third Reading which carries out the object which the noble Earl has in mind. So the noble Earl himself has put down the Amendment which appears in the Paper. As the noble Earl says, he has been good enough to discuss this matter with me, and it has given me great satisfaction and pleasure to do what I could to meet him. I will only say at this time that I have certain sympathy with the object the noble Earl has in view and this is a matter which will continue to be watched. The Bill will pass from this place to another place, and will go through all its stages in another place, and I can assure the noble Earl, as I have done already, that this matter will be in our consideration, and when we feel something can be done to carry out the points he has in view without raising a vast number of anomalous difficulties, I can assure him that those steps will be taken.
But in relation to the Amendment itself, I would ask your Lordships to consider it from all points of view. The noble Earl envisages an owner as an individual who owns a large tract of land and is capable, from his knowledge and his financial position and his capacity to develop industry, of being able to undertake these duties, and that owner sees the possibility of somebody else obtaining-a licence unbeknown to him and searching for oil under his land. The difficulty which we have had to contend with is not in considering the position of the surface owner who is capable of discharging those duties which belong to a licence, but we have had to realise that there are owners and owners. I think it is accepted that for the finding and development of oil it is necessary to mark out large districts, and we might find, in a district so marked out, not one or two owners but, it may be, thousands of owners who occupy houses and villas and may own an acre of land
680
or less. The noble Earl is really saying that when it has been discovered that there is oil, or that there is a possibility of finding oil, then the owner of the land shall be allowed to come in and have a preference over someone else who may be applying for a licence. That means that when the oil is on the high road to being proven, the owner, who has had all these opportunities before of applying for a licence, will then come in and claim that he has a prior right to obtain a licence before another individual who does not belong to the district or, as the noble Earl says, is not so familiar with the geological aspect of the district over which he is desirous of receiving the licence.
In the position to which I have ventured to allude, that of there being a large number of owners, there is a great danger if the State took upon itself to say that an owner owning the surface should have a prior right. We might then find that individuals would go before the public proclaiming that oil had been found in the neighbourhood, and that oil would be found under the soil over which the surface owners in the area exercised a right at that moment. We might find a number of people imposing on a credulous public. We know from past history that that is not a very difficult thing to do. We might find them inveigling the public into putting up money for the purpose of searching for oil on the land and applying for a licence, as they might do under the noble Earl's Amendment, to bore for oil. There are thus many difficulties which crowd in, and make it very difficult to carry out the undertaking which my noble friend gave, although he put in the guarding words "all things being equal." But it is not possible to implement them by an Amendment in phraseology which would be satisfactory to your Lordships' House and which would make the administration of a Bill of this description a success. That is the difficulty with which we are faced at the present moment. I would venture to say that in no circumstances do I desire to close the door. During the time that this Bill is before another place I shall be in negotiation with those who have been advising me, and advising me with great skill, all through the stages of this Bill, and I can assure the noble Earl I will keep in close touch with them and, if it

681
is possible for phraseology to be put in which will cover the point that he is raising, that will be done.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Marquess, for his explanation and for his assurance that words will be embodied in the regulations, if words can be found. I hope your Lordships agree that this is a principle of considerable importance, and that if the noble Marquess fails to embody something which would cover surface owners against this injury considerable hardship would ensue. The position as the Bill stands at present is clearly this, that an outside company who may, or may not, be desirable people to do the work of finding oil in a certain district, go to the Board of Trade and apply for a licence, and there is no publicity whatsoever in connection with the application. The application can be granted to them by the Board of Trade in secret, and without anybody in the district—the surface owners, local authorities or anyone else—knowing anything about it until the licence is granted. The company in question then goes down and makes its arrangements with the surface owners locally. If those negotiations break down, the whole case goes for arbitration to the Railway and Canal Commission, and the surface owners have to stand by the ruling of that Commission and have no redress whatsoever.
They are in an invidious position. These surface owners may be people who have owned and worked the minerals under their soil for centuries, who have collected all the available geological data in the district, and who are in touch with the local authorities and have sympathy with, and regard for, local amenities. Yet these people might find themselves completely ruled out by an outside company who come in with a licence granted by the Board of Trade without any publicity whatever. I hope the noble Marquess will really realise that hardship and will continue to do something to amend a situation which at Present can be described in no other way than as socialisation. I beg leave of the House to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD RANKEILLOUR LORD RANKEILLOUR moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "as soon as may be after" and insert "before." The noble Lord said: My Lords, although this
682
Amendment, to which there is a series of consequential ones, may be reminiscent of what happened in earlier stages, I can assure your Lordships that neither in form nor in substance was this present proposal put to your Lordships' House at an earlier stage. Similar Amendments were moved by myself or others, but they were always bound up with proposals and contingent on proposals for a public inquiry of some sort. Now I have to recognise that the idea of a public inquiry before a licence is granted has been settled by your Lordships' House and I do not attempt to raise that question again. All I do raise in this Amendment is that in this matter of licences Parliament shall preserve to itself a control over the Department issuing the licences. The substance of this is merely that after a licence has been granted there should be a short space of Parliamentary time in which Parliament can review the licence and can, if necessary, annul it. I should imagine that only in very rare cases would Parliament annul these licences.
After all, it is a protection for hasty and ill-considered action by the Board of Trade, which Parliament should have the chance to revise. In this Bill a new departure is foreshadowed and powers are about to be given to a Department to make the developments which are thereby involved. It is surely right that Parliament should not leave an absolute discretion to the Department, but should preserve to itself an opportunity for revision. I know it will be said that if the Minister does wrong in a matter like this his salary can be challenged in another place, but I think those of your Lordships who have been for any length of time in another place will realise how futile is that precaution. In the first place the mischief will have been done, and, secondly, when the question is raised it will be a matter of confidence, the resignation of the Minister will be involved and the whole Party machinery will be turned against any one who raises it. If, as I suggest, there should be a Notion to annul a licence the matter could be decided on its merits, the resignation of the Minister would not be involved, and if Parliament decided that a mistake had been made that could be corrected. I have perfect trust at present in the Board of Trade, but even the best

683
Board of Trade may make mistakes now or in the future. It seems to me only a matter of common sense that some protection should be inserted.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 12, leave out ("as soon as may be after") and insert ("before").—(Lord Rankeillour.)
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, I suppose I am as much opposed to this Bill as the noble Lord who has moved this Amendment, but it seems to me that the effect of his Amendments taken together would be, I will not say to wreck the Bill, but to stultify it. Although I am entirely opposed to the whole principle of the confiscation of the oil belonging to landowners, yet I am bound to recognise that the House has settled that question and it seems to me that, that being so, all we can do is to try to get as many concessions as possible. Speaking as a landowner and a royalty owner, I think the Government have met us to a large extent, and although they have not given us as much as I should like, we are now treated better than was proposed by the Bill originally. As I read these Amendments they will make it almost a farce to proceed under the Bill, because before anyone could get a licence from the Board of Trade there would have to be long preliminary steps, and then that licence would have to be laid before your Lordships' House and before another place and could not be effective until both Houses approved. If one House dissented—
LORD RANKEILLOUR: It would have effect automatically unless one House dissented.
LORD STRACHIE: It seems to me, reading all the Amendments together, that the effect would be exactly as I have said, that it would be very difficult indeed to proceed at all. I would much rather the noble Lord had said on the Motion for Third Reading that the Bill was so bad that he would divide the House against it. In that case I should have been ready to go into the Lobby with him, but as the House has passed the Third Reading we have to think what is the best way of carrying out the Bill. Concessions have been made to a large extent and, as I read the Bill, when a licence has been granted the questions can be looked into. Under an Amendment which was agreed to by the noble Marquess regula-
684
tions "might" be made by the Board of Trade and the noble Marquess agreed that that should be compulsory. Now it is necessary that all regulations for carrying out the Bill shall be laid before both Houses. Those regulations must lay down certain rules as to licences and if the regulations are not satisfactory it will be open to your Lordships or to the other House to amend those regulations or declare them null and void. If they were declared null and void the effect would be that it would be impossible to proceed further with the licence.
I cannot see that there is any failure to give protection to the landowner or royalty owner in this matter. A very valuable concession was made by the noble, Marquess when, on the Report stage, he put into the Bill this provision:
"Nothing in this Act shall be construed as conferring, or as enabling the Board of Trade to confer, on any person, whether acting on behalf of His Majesty or not, any right which he does not enjoy apart front this Act to enter on or interfere with land."
I may be wrong in my reading of that, but I think the ordinary plain man would say that that entirely protects landowners and royalty owners. I am quite aware that there may be certain difficulties, but as regulations have to be made it will be possible to amend them or reject them altogether. I speak of course under correction, but it seems to me that the fact that those regulations have to be made and laid before both Houses of Parliament is a very great safeguard. For the reason that I think it is no good trying to stultify the Bill, I think myself justified, in consideration of the concessions made, in opposing this Amendment.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I think the noble Lord who has just spoken has made the proper reply to the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour. The Amendments which the noble Lord has put down on the Paper provide for publicity before the grant of a licence, for confirmation by Parliament after its issue, and apparently in his later Amendment for the possibility of annulment by the Railway and Canal Commission.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: That really is another point. That is not consequential at all. The last Amendment is an entirely different proposal.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think that at this stage of the Bill it would be as well for me to deal with as many Amendments as I can and therefore I am dealing with the Amendments on the Paper. The noble Lord on more than one occasion has endeavoured to secure a provision of this nature in spite of the decision of the House having been taken against him. The noble Lord changes his point of view with great rapidity and really it is somewhat difficult to follow him. In the first stage he appeared as the champion of the landowner's rights. He complained that the Bill infringed those rights very seriously indeed. When I endeavoured to demonstrate, and I think succeeded in demonstrating to the satisfaction of the majority of your Lordships, that the rights of landowners were safeguarded, the noble Lord put down an Amendment to secure that the amenities of the neighbourhood should be properly safeguarded. The noble Lord was not successful with that Amendment and he followed it up by a letter in The Times in which his main complaint was that we have not interfered sufficiently with the rights of landowners and are allowing a landowner to dispose of his own land under such conditions as he pleases provided a voluntary arrangement can be made. Presumably the present series of Amendments is designed to achieve the same object as he outlined in his letter to The Times.
The noble Lord now raises no further objection where compulsory rights are applied for, but seeks to ensure that before a licence is confirmed the amenities of the neighbourhood shall be considered in every case, including those in which voluntary arrangements may be reached between the licensee and the landowner. As in the case of some other Amendments, the noble Lord includes words which I venture to say indicate very clearly that he has not yet fully appreciated the provisions of the Bill. For instance, the words in the last of this set of Amendments, "within five miles of the site of any work that may be authorised by the licence," would make the whole Amendment entirely valueless, as the licence does not authorise any works of any sort. Further, under the last Amendment it would be sufficient for any local authority merely to submit that
686
they objected to the confirmation of the licence on the ground of injury to the amenities of the neighbourhood to require the Court to annul the licence. If such a provision were accepted it would not be worth while proceeding any further with the Bill; we might as well drop the measure at this moment.
The Amendments which the noble Lord has put down are really on the same footing as the Amendments which have been put down before, and on which I ventured to address your Lordships at some considerable length. I have no further arguments to adduce in addition to those which I put forward upon that occasion for asking your Lordships to reject the Amendment which has now appeared on the Paper at this stage of the Bill. I have referred to one Amendment which comes later, and I would venture in that connection to say that it would not be right in our view that the responsibility for the decision should be passed on to the Railway and Canal Commission. The noble Lord now goes even further, and suggests that the Minister's exercise of his responsibility, which under one of his Amendments is to be subject to the approval of Parliament, may even after such approval be overridden by the Railway and Canal Commission. I am afraid, therefore, that I find it impossible to accept the Amendment which the noble Lord has put down.
EARL PEEL: My Lords, may I say one word upon this question, because I must confess that I did not entirely follow the argument of the noble Marquess on this point. I am not concerned and what I am saying is not dealing with a series of Amendments, because I am not interested in the proposed new subsection (4), and these matters about a local authority. I am dealing solely with the Amendment which I understand is before the House, and I really do not know why my noble friend discussed those questions of the local authority, five miles, and so on, because in my view they have nothing to do with the Amendment before us. Anything that I say is confined solely to the matter which is before us. I have never known before a series of Amendments which are not taken together and some of which are not necessarily relevant to each other, brought into the argument. I hope I may say respectfully to my noble friend, that I

687
am not interested so much in his letter to The Times,or even in his tergiversations, if such there were. Upon those grounds he has been criticised by the noble Marquess. May I therefore confine myself to the one Amendment before us in which I am interested, and that is this: that such licence shall be laid before the Houses of Parliament "and shall be deemed to have been granted unless it is annulled by a Resolution of either House"?
This point of course we have discussed in this House, and it has been discussed in another place, several times, and not necessarily upon this Bill. But the principle is a very much larger principle, I think, than the noble Marquess has told us; it is the question whether there shall be unfettered discretion in the particular Department to deal with these very important matters of licences, or whether this House or the other House shall have some control over the Executive. My noble friend, with his great knowledge of another House, has said: "What is the use of merely saying that you can attack the salary of the Minister?" We do not attack the salaries of Ministers at all, and therefore that sort of procedure, which might be useful in another place, although my noble friend says it is of no value, is certainly of less value in this House, where we do not proceed in that way. The only control which this House can have is by some Resolution of that kind, and I do submit that we ought not to diminish the authority which this House has, but ought rather to support it.
I hope that there are other noble Lords who feel that in a matter so controversial as this, where so many important interests are at stake, your Lordships should at least have an opportunity of some final word which does not delay this business more than about 28 days of the sittings of your Lordships' House. I therefore ask your Lordships entirely to sever this Amendment from the others, although the noble Marquess, with controversial ingenuity, has tried to suggest that this Amendment is involved with others which have no relation to it whatever, merely because they are placed on the Paper in the name of my noble friend. I therefore do hope that we shall confine ourselves to this Amendment and assert the right and authority of this House over the Executive.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Earl who has just spoken complained that my noble friend Lord Londonderry was dealing with these Amendments en bloc,and thought that this particular point had not been dealt with in my noble friend's argument, perhaps it is courteous at any rate to the noble Earl that I should endeavour to remind your Lordships of the position. The noble Earl has said that the question which is raised by the particular Amendment is one which has often, been discussed before in your Lordships' House. It certainly has been discussed before in your Lordships' House, and on this Bill, at least three times. There was some discussion about it on Second Reading; it was discussed again in Committee; it was discussed again on Report, and now it is brought up for the fourth time. It is remarkable that those of your Lordships who are speaking in favour of and supporting this Amendment, and who are discovering that some great principle of Parliamentary propriety is involved, happen to be those who are opposed to the Bill and who have done their best to defeat it from the time when it was introduced in this House. The answer which my noble friend Lord Londonderry made has been made so often, that he really repeated it in shorthand by reminding your Lordships of the previous arguments which have been submitted to this House.
We really must try to understand what it is that we are here dealing with. We are not here dealing with the question of taking rights to interfere with the surface or of obtaining oil compulsorily anywhere; we are dealing only with the question of the grant of a licence to a firm, a company, or an individual, to search for oil, and when that licence has been granted, then, as the noble Lord, Lord Strachie, pointed out, comes the question as to the negotiations which have to be entered into with any landowner before there is any possibility of entering upon anybody's land. The point, which was made so often that I almost hesitate to repeat it, is that the purpose of this Bill is to encourage people to search for oil in this country. We regard it as of great importance that if oil be present in commercial and payable quantities in this country it should be discovered and

689
worked. It is very important from the point of view of exchange, very important from the point of view of national wealth, and very important from the point of view which affects the Department of which I have the honour to be the political chief, the point of view of defence, that if oil can be found it should be worked.
What is the position with regard to searching for oil? It is a matter which requires very great geological skill and experience in order to determine what are the places in which oil can probably be found. It is a complete fallacy to imagine that anybody can go and dig in his back garden and expect to find oil, or that every owner of a villa or a plot of ground can sink a little well, perhaps with the assistance of a dowser, and proceed to find that he has got oil in payable quantities underneath it. That is not the way the thing is done. In fact, you have to study the geological conditions prevailing probably over a very large area; you have to bring a very great wealth of experience in other parts of the world to bear in order to determine whether the indications are such that in a particular district, which may be a very large one, there is a possibility of oil existing.
At present, all over the world people are searching for oil in likely places. If this Bill were passed only with the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, has so often sought to insert, under which there is to be publicity given and under which there are to be discussions and opportunities given to a variety of people to come in before the licence is effectively granted, then you may be sure that the persons whose business it is to search for oil will go to places where they are not subject so such interferences. There is no reason at all why they should come to England when they can obtain oil in other countries without running any such risk. It is essential, as has been pointed out before, that those who are to be encouraged to bring their great knowledge, experience and skill to bear in engaging upon this very expensive task of searching for oil should, before they start, be assured that if they by their efforts and skill and expenditure come to the conclusion that a particular area is likely to be oil-bearing, they shall not find all their labour and skill thrown away by
690
their application being made public and their knowledge given to somebody else, before they get a licence.
Therefore, we have always regarded it, and your Lordships have equally regarded it, as essential that if the Bill is to be effective for the purpose for which it is designed, those who apply for a licence shall be able to go to the Board of Trade and make their application, and if they satisfy the Board of Trade of their responsibility and reliability they shall then be able to get an effective and firm licence to seek for oil, without any risk of their labour being filched from them and their work and experience being frittered away, and their application being made public. It is only after a licence has been granted that any question comes in of whether they should have any right of interfering with the surface. Then it is quite right that everybody whose land may be affected should have a right to be heard, and that right is provided by the Bill.
It is vital that in the grant of licences a person who applies for a licence shall be able to obtain a licence from a responsible Department, without risk of competitors being practically invited to share the results of his labour and to put in objections and attempt to get a licence in his place, either in Parliament or before the Railway and Canal Commission or in any other way. Therefore we are bound once more to ask your Lordships to reaffirm, as you have said before, that this licence should be granted by the Board of Trade to applicants firm and not subject to review by Parliament. What is to be subject to review by Parliament under the Bill is the regulations which govern the grant of licences. Parliament has to be satisfied that the regulations are fair and that they provide for proper precautions to ensure that the right people shall get the licences. That is provided in the Bill as it stands. Once the regulations have been approved by Parliament then the grant of the licence under those regulations must be a Ministerial act.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I want to say only one word. I wanted to say something on a previous stage but reasons beyond my control prevented my attending here and taking

691
part in any debate. What I desire to say is that I hope there will be no question of passing the Amendment now proposed by Lord Rankeillour, because I cannot but think that if we did pass that Amendment it would tend very strongly to destroy what is the object of this Bill. I am not going into the arguments so well put by the noble Marquess who is responsible for the Bill, and by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House. All I desire to say is that whilst I am, as a rule, in favour of keeping control in this House, so far as is possible, I do not think we have ever sought to extend that control in the manner which is now attempted. If we were to attempt to say that a licence granted should be laid upon the Tables of the Houses of Parliament we should be making it impossible to carry out the measure.
The only other observation I desire to make is that I support the Bill, but not, as Lord Strachie said he supported it, because I am against the Bill. All that I desired was to get certain explanations from the Government, and now after what has taken place I support the Bill and hope it will be carried. I think the Government are doing a wise thing in bringing this Bill before your Lordships. especially having regard to the concessions which have been made to meet the views of noble Lords in several directions. Surely if there is oil in any quantity in this country, we should take every step we can to make it easy and not difficult for prospecting to take place, and it can never be done unless some step of this character is undertaken. For reasons into which I need not enter I hope that the Bill will now be passed.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, I am not sure that I understand the position, but I think it simply comes to this. The Board of Trade under the Bill, if the Amendment is not carried. will have the power, though merely a Government Department, to grant a licence to anybody they choose. I am not at all sure that in the circumstances that might not lead to corruption, because if there is any oil in this country, and it can be found in any quantity, it will be a very profitable undertaking What I understand my noble friend desires is not that the Board of Trade shall not have power to grant licences, but that, a licence having been granted,
692
it is not to be effective unless, within twenty-eight sittings of Parliament, there has been no objection advanced against it. Why on earth should not that be done? Where is anybody hurt? We have waited for I do not know how many years, and so far as I know have not found oil. Why should we not safeguard our position and retain to this House some control over Government Departments in a matter of this sort? I cannot conceive how anybody can be hurt, but I can conceive that if the Amendment is carried there can be some control exercised over what are pecuniary considerations by Government Departments. In my own opinion we have got too much in the habit of granting powers to Government Departments and taking those powers out of the hands of Parliament. If the noble Lord goes to a Division I shall have much pleasure in supporting him.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will press his Amendment to a Division, and that your Lordships will support it, because I regard this method of secret negotiation as the most objectionable part of the whole Bill. It is the main point of difference between those who are opposing the Bill and the Government, and I cannot see why publicity before a licence is granted, and control by Parliament for a period of twenty-eight days, can possibly make any difference to the incentive put forward which the Government seems to be so anxious about.
The noble and learned Viscount in his reply just now talked about knowledge of the applicant for the licence being filched from him by this publicity, but what knowledge can he possibly have before the licence is granted? He cannot possibly have more knowledge than is possessed at the present time by the surface owners and the local authorities, who have all the geological data that have been collected for centuries. The company which is applying for this licence does not have access to the land until the licence is granted and until it has had its negotiations with the surface owners. Therefore it is impossible for that company to put down experimental boreholes or to have access to knowledge of the geological peculiarities of the district which is not available to everybody else. So there cannot pos-

693
sibly be any secret knowledge which they possess before the licence is granted which is not known to the entire district.
What can be the objection? We have never yet, I submit, had a satisfactory explanation from any member of the Government. Of course, your Lordships will realise that it is absurd that control by your Lordships' House should prevent any incentive to boring in the future. And in view of the fact that these secret negotiations can go on under the Bill between the Board of Trade and any company, who may be desirable or who may be very undesirable, unknown to anybody either in Parliament or, more important still, in the districts concerned, and the licence may be granted to an undesirable company without your Lordships having any say in the matter, I hope you will do everything in your power to oppose such a state of affairs.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, the noble Marquess made a considerable speech, the greater part of which was not directly against this Amendment at all, but against another one which I propose
to move. The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, was addressing himself, I cannot help thinking, to a former Amendment of mine, not this one. He spoke of the danger of cross-examining the promoters and of getting out their secrets. That forms no part of this Amendment. This Amendment deals only with one thing—namely, whether the Board of Trade shall have discretionary power to grant licences without the control of Parliament or whether within one Parliamentary month Parliament may revise that licence if it wishes. It does not require the licence to be laid on the Table for approval by Parliament; it only gives Parliament an opportunity in either House, if any serious objection arises against it, to protest against it. I cannot see my way to withdraw the Amendment.
On Question, Whether the words proposed to be left out shall stand part of the clause?
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 61; Not-Contents, 32.

CONTENTS.

Reading, M.

Halifax, V.

Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

Mersey, V.

Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)

De La Warr, E.

Ullswater, V.

Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.)

Feversham, E.

Hindlip, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Winchester, L. Bp.

Kilmaine, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Lawrence, L.

Mar and Kellie, E.

Addington, L.

Luke, L.

Midleton, E.

Alvingham, L.

Meldrum, L. (M. Hunlly.)

Midlothian, E. (E. Rosebery.)

Askwith, L.

Merrivale, L.

Mount Edgcumbe, E.

Boston, L.

Palmer, L.

Munster, E.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Plymouth, E.

Rennell, L.

Stanhope, E.

Clwyd, L.

Rhayader, L.

Strange, E. (D. Atholl.)

Cornwallis, L.

Rochester, L.

Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

Cottesloe, L.

Saltersford, L. (E. Courtown.)

Danesfort, L.

Sanderson, L.

Astor, V.

Daryngton, L.

Somerleyton, L.

Esher, V.

Denman, L.

Stanmore, L.

Exmouth, V.

Ernle, L.

Strabolgi, L.

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.) [Teller.]

Strachie, L.

Goschen, V.

Gainford, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Hailsham, V.

Greville, L.

Templemore, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Sutherland, D.

Radnor, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Hampton, L.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Harris, L.

Chelmsford, V.

Jessel, L.

Bradford, E.

Hambleden, V.

Lamington, L.

Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

Hereford, V.

Latymer, L.

Lloyd, L.

Dudley, E. [Teller.]

Annesley, L. (V. Valentia.)

O'Hagan, L.

Effingham, E.

Banbury of Sontham, L.

Oxenfoord, L. (E. Stair.)

Iddesleigh, E.

Carnock, L.

Polwarth, L.

Leven and Melville, E.

Carrington, L. [Teller.]

Rankeillour, L.

Peel, E.

Cranworth, L.

Redesdale, L.

Shute, L. (V. Barrington.)

Resolved in the affirmative and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
LORD RANKEILLOUR LORD RANKEILLOUR moved to insert the following new subsection:
"(4) The operation of every such licence shall be suspended until confirmed by the Railway and Canal Commission. Within two calendar months from the date of publication under this section Petitions may be addressed to the Commission by persons praying to be heard in opposition to the licence. The Commission shall not refuse to allow any such Petitions unless after a preliminary hearing they are of opinion that no prima facie case of injurious affection has been made out by the petitioner:
Provided that no Petition be disallowed by the Commission if it is submitted on the ground of injury to the amenities of the neighbourhood by any local authority having jurisdiction within five miles of the site of any work that may be authorised by the licence.
The expression "local authority" for the purpose of this section means the council of a county or county borough, of a municipal borough or of an urban or rural district; in Scotland the expression local authority' means the council of a county or of a burgh or of a district."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, perhaps it may be convenient for me to say that I do not move the next short Amendments—they are consequential. I propose to move a new subsection (4). In regard to this Amendment I wish first of all to repudiate the charge that I am abusing the forms of the House by bringing it forward. It is really brought forward for the first time. What happened was that on the Report stage an entirely new development took place and it appeared from the statements of spokesmen of the Government that the procedure, and the effect of the procedure, under the Bill was quite different to what had been anticipated before. The only way of clearing up the matter was to move to omit the whole of the main part of the clause. There was no time to devise anything constructive, and therefore this proposal has not been before your Lordships at all. What happened before was merely a technical means of eliciting a statement from the Government. In the second place I want to repudiate that I have changed my attitude in the matter. The noble Marquess said I was entirely in favour of the landlords' rights. As a matter of fact, I did not oppose the Second Reading, but I have opposed the procedure in this Bill because I think it is extremely inimical not only to the
696
landlords' rights but to the public rights, and it was on that ground I opposed it.
The noble Marquess, I think, misunderstood the effect of this Amendment. He said it would be in the power of a local authority to block the whole scheme provided any petition is disallowed by the Commission if it is submitted by the local authority. All I mean is that the local authority should have the right to be heard. It will not prejudge or fetter the discretion of the Commissioners in the least, and I think the noble Marquess cannot have fully appreciated the words in the Amendment. We had considerable discussion earlier on as to the proceedings before the Railway and Canal Commission, and various views were expressed, but it was not until the Report stage that it was made clear that in many cases the Railway and Canal Commission would not come into the matter at all. A good deal was said about compensation, about amenities and the rest, but that was all dependent on the matter coming before the Commission; but it came out in the Report stage that very often the Commission would not function at all in these matters. We know now that if the licence is granted the licence holder can take it and give compensation to the owners of the surface, and if the owners of the surface can be arranged with and terms made with them, then nobody else can protest at all. There will be no hearing before the Commission and no interested parties whatever can appear. The neighbouring landowner will not be able to petition in the matter; the occupiers will not be able to petition; the local authority will not be able to petition; and the whole question of public rights and the amenities of the neighbourhood depends on some landowners, it may be against their own material interests, standing out against the inducements offered to them by the licence holders.
I submit that that is an entirely wrong principle and destructive of the old tradition of Parliament. Nay, I think I may say it is destructive of the new practice of Parliament; because what did we have yesterday? Yesterday your Lordships passed these words with regard to licences for racing tracks on which betting is to be allowed:
"Upon the consideration by the licensing authority of an application for the grant of a licence, the following persons, in addi-

697
tion to the applicant, shall be entitled to be heard in person or by a representative, that is to say, the chief officer of Police, any responsible authority under a planning scheme in force in an area which includes the track or any part thereof, the local authority of the district in which the track or any part thereof is situate, the local authority of any adjoining district, any person owning or occupying premises in the neighbourhood of the track and the governing body of any institution in the neighbourhood of the track."
That was what your Lordships passed yesterday. Before a licence can be granted for betting on a racing track anybody has a right to petition and protest on the ground that the amenities of the neighbourhood will be injured or that the studies of the children in an orphanage will be disturbed, but under this Bill the local authority cannot make any protest on the ground that the amenities of the neighbourhood will be destroyed. A neighbouring landowner or occupier will not be able to protest that his water supply may be contaminated or that his interests in any other way may be adversely affected.
Why do I say that this is against the tradition of Parliament? Because of long practice and many precedents going back, I imagine, for hundreds of years, gradually ripened and developed. The utmost care has been taken by Parliament that when undertakers come forward with a scheme everybody who may be injuriously affected by that scheme shall have an opportunity, at any rate, of petitioning to be heard and of proving a prima facie case. It was my office for some eight years to administer the scheme of Private Bill Legislation, and I know how careful and meticulous Parliament has been so that all may be heard whose interests are affected. I submit that something of this kind is necessary, that it should not depend on the opposition of the surface owners whether a licence shall be carried out or not, but that those who are affected in the neighbourhood, and in particular the local authority, which ought to be the guardian of the amenities of the neighbourhood, and whose assessments may be most seriously affected by the provisions of this Bill, should at least have a chance of being heard. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 18, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Rankeillour.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this is an Amendment which comes under the category of those that I have described before. The noble Lord is desirous of protecting the locality from the licence owner. I have endeavoured on more than one occasion to try to explain to the noble Lord that the licence does not carry with it any power to injure the locality. The licence carries nothing with it except the power to negotiate with the landowner, and, if the negotiations come to nothing, the licence holder will have the possibility of going before the Railway and Canal Commission to obtain what he wants. That is how the matter stands now. But the noble Lord desires, although the owner may have come to some arrangement with the individual who is desirous of finding oil, that persons should have some right of access to the Railway and Canal Commission before the licence can be confirmed. That really is asking a power which I hardly think can possibly be granted. The amenities of the district will certainly be taken into consideration, but the reparation which the individual will obtain is the reparation which he can obtain at Common Law. I cannot see how in any measure of this kind you can go further than is allowed in any other Act of Parliament. After all, if one considers the industrial history of this country, I do not know what would have been done if these powers had been in existence in the past. The position now is that a licence may be granted, and the individual will then have to negotiate with the surface owner and come to some arrangement with him, but to say that
"no petition be disallowed by the Commission if it is submitted on the ground of injury to the amenities of the neighbourhood by any local authority having jurisdiction within five miles of the site of any work that may be authorised by the licence "
is something we cannot contemplate.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: May I point out that the petition is only a request to be heard? They can, of course, disallow his objection afterwards. It is merely asking to be heard.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Railway and Canal Commission before whom these matters will come in the event of the individual or company being unable to agree with the owner, is a Court of Law, and that Court of Law can make its own rules and has its

699
own jurisdiction. I think that is the answer to the Amendment, which is one we cannot possibly accept.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, I can merely say that if no provision of this kind is made the amenities of the countryside and the rights of the neighbours will be solely dependent upon the surface owners with whom the licensed holders may or may not agree, and as for Parliamentary precedents for those who are to be heard, as I have said already, we passed enough of them yesterday.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 5:
Account of receipts and expenditure under Act.
5.—(1) The Board of Trade shall keep an account in such form and manner as the Treasury may direct of their receipts and expenses under this Act and that account shall be examined and certified from time to time by the Comptroller and Auditor General.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to leave out subsection (1) and insert:
(1) Before the first day of October in the year nineteen hundred and thirty-five and each succeeding year an account shall be prepared by the Board of Trade, in such form and in such manner as the Treasury may direct, of the moneys received and expended by bite Board under this Act during the last preceding financial year, and the Comptroller and Auditor-General shall examine and certify every such account and shall lay copies thereof, together with his Report thereon, before both Houses of Parliament."
The noble Marquess said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment to make it clear that the Board of Trade shall prepare an account each year and that the Report shall be laid before Parliament. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 10, leave out subsection (1) and insert the said new subsection.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6:
Power to make regulations.
6.—(1) The Board of Trade shall make regulations prescribing—
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH moved, in subsection (1), after "The Board of
700
Tade shall," to insert "before granting any licence under this Act." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I move this Amendment for the sake of greater clarity and precision.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 19, after ("shall") insert ("before granting any licence under this Act").—(The Earl of iddesteigh.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, it was never intended that licences should be issued before the regulations have been made. The Amendment which the noble Earl has moved does clarify the position and I shall be glad to accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments (Privilege) made.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

BETTING AND LOTTERIES BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be again put into Committee read.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, in moving that the House do again resolve itself into Committee on the Betting and Lotteries Bill I desire to state that we are proposing to continue the debate on this Bill after dinner to-night.
Moved, That the House do now resolve into Committee.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 14:
Prohibition of betting With young persons.
14.—(1) If on any track—

(a) any bookmaker or commission agent has any betting transaction with a person apparently under, or known to him to be under, the age of seventeen years; or

(b) any person engaged in operating a totalisator has by means thereof any betting transaction with a person apparently under, or known to him to he under, the age of seventeen years,

then, in the first case, that bookmaker or commission agent and, in the second case, the occupier of the track on which the totalisator is set up, shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Upon a charge under this section in respect of a person apparently under the

701
age of seventeen years, it shall be a defence to prove that, at the time of the alleged offence, he had in fact attained that age.
LORD SANDERSON LORD SANDERSON moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (1), to leave out "seventeen" and insert "eighteen." The noble Lord said: When I considered putting down this Amendment my first thought was to suggest the age of twenty-one, and I think that would not have been an unreasonable thing to do. I believe that betting transactions with persons under the age of twenty-one are illegal in many of our Dominions, and of course it is illegal in this country to invite young persons under twenty-one to make bets or to send them betting advertisements. Therefore, it would not have been unreasonable, I think, to ask the Government to substitute the age of twenty-one for seventeen in this clause, but with the moderation which I always display in your Lordships' House I am only asking for eighteen.
I shall no doubt be told that the age of seventeen has been selected because seventeen has been laid down in certain other Acts as the age of young persons. It may be desired to keep this Bill in line with other legislation on this point, but if that is the view of the Government I cannot believe that it is necessary to be quite so rigid as that. I cannot believe that the ingenuity of lawyers would not be able to devise a way out if that is the difficulty. Again, it may be said that there is not much difference between seventeen and eighteen. I think there really is a difference. That year would make quite a considerable difference. It, is well known that the effect of gambling on the character of young people is extraordinarily bad and that there has been a great increase in gambling by young people. Therefore it is important to keep them out of temptation as long as possible, especially at a time when, as the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, said last night, there are so many young people without occupation and for that reason more exposed to temptation. I hope the noble Marquess will agree to accept my Amendment and so in quite a considerable way help in preventing deterioration of character in the coming generation.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 27, leave out ("seventeen") and insert ("eighteen").—(Lord sanderson.)
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: I hope the Government will accept this Amendment because if it be a fact that greyhound racing is such a social menace as was described by the noble Marquess yesterday, it is clearly obvious that the people you want to exclude from that social menace are the young people. Quite apart from that fact young people are very gullible. After all, at the age of seventeen hardly a member of your Lordships' House had left his public school. It is well known that on any track, whether it be a horse racing track, a dog racing track, a motor racing track, or any other track, there are plenty of very plausible gentlemen going round inviting "pigeons," as I think they are called, to bet and to give them their money. I do think that this is a very necessary precaution. I myself would have preferred the age of twenty-one, as would my noble friend below me, but at any rate I hope the Government will accept this Amendment.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: I should like to support this Amendment. The evidence before the Royal Commission was very emphatic that young people were gravely injured by the prevalence of betting and gambling. Those who have attended dog racing tracks have been struck by the very large number of lads and young men between the ages of sixteen and twenty-one who crowd round the bookmakers and bet with them, and there is almost unanimous evidence from the managers of clubs in the poorer parts of our great towns that the increase of betting and gambling among boys has been very great. Some prohibition of this kind up to the age of eighteen is really of great importance.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment which has been proposed by the noble Lord who sits opposite and supported by the right reverend Prelate is one certainly of great importance. It is an Amendment to which I do not feel unsympathetic. The noble Lord has spoken of rigidity. It is not really a question of rigidity but of uniformity. The Amendment proposes that a book

703
maker or totalisator operator on a track shall not have any betting transaction with a person under eighteen years of age, instead of any person under seventeen years of age, as proposed in the Bill. I think your Lordships will agree that it is undesirable to have juvenile protection extending to one age for one purpose and to another age for another purpose. The Racecourse Betting Act, 1928, prohibits any betting transactions on an approved horse racecourse with young persons under seventeen years of age; and the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, defines a "child" as a person under the age of fourteen years and a "young person" as a person who has attained the age of fourteen years and is under the age of seventeen years. When one finds that for a great many purposes persons under seventeen years are being subject to special protection, it is undesirable (without very special cause) to substitute a different age for an isolated form of protection.
I know exactly what is the desire of those who suggest eighteen and hope that it will be twenty-one. It is to protect young people from the ravages which can be said to accrue to those who indulge in betting. I am not certain that any age limit would satisfy some of those people. A great many of them who are against betting in all forms would like to put the age limit higher and keep everybody off racecourses. But as the age of seventeen has been laid down in so many cases I think it would be unfortunate to change it to eighteen in this Bill. As, however, I agree so much with the object of the Amendment I certainly will not shut the door upon it. The matter can be considered, and if it is thought advisable that it should be accepted after further consideration of its merits, I will certainly mention it again on the Report stage.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBRDE: I am very glad to hear the noble Marquess's remark at the end of his speech, and my noble friend certainly will not press the Amendment now if we may have an assurance that it will be reconsidered before the Report stage. I felt that in his remarks the noble Marquess was entirely sympathetic to the Amendment and that it was only the tidiness and uniformity of Government offices which was preventing him from accepting it. But
704
we are grateful to him for that assurance, and I will ask my noble friend to withdraw the Amendment.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: We all sympathise, I am sure, with the general idea of the Amendment, but I would like to point out that under the standing orders of the Greyhound Racing Totalisator Control Board it is provided that a member on whose racecourse a totalisator is in operation shall have no transaction by means of the totalisator with a person apparently under the age of seventeen, and also I would point out that if it is brought to the notice of the National Greyhound Racing Club that any betting with juveniles takes place on a licensed track, the licence issued to such track may be withdrawn entirely and immediately. That is really why I was asking yesterday to have some kind of control, I do not say necessarily in that particular manner, but unless you get control over all the tracks it will be extremely difficult to carry out the Act.
LORD RHAYADER: May I express the hope that the noble Marquess will not be too much influenced by a desire to maintain uniformity? I am afraid that the extension of the totalisator to greyhound racing will inevitably mean a considerable extension of betting, and therefore if it is a case of making a new rule, when all the evidence points to the fact that boys under the age of eighteen years, with very few opportunities at the present time for finding work, go to these greyhound race meetings in very large numbers, it appears to me that it is most desirable in their interests and in the interests of the nation to put the age as high as you reasonably can. I do not think anybody will contend that eighteen is too high to fix the age at which the provision of betting facilities should begin. If uniformity is desirable I should suggest that opportunity should on some future occasion be taken to amend the Acts previously passed.
LORD SANDERSON: I should like to thank the noble Marquess for his undertaking to reconsider the matter before the Report stage. I should also like to apologise to him and to the House for using a wrong word: I used the word "rigid" when of course "uniform"

705
was what I meant. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD POLWARTH LORD POLWARTH moved to insert the following new subsection:
"(5) Any person who causes or procures or attempts to cause or procure any young person under the age of seventeen to convey or deliver any slip, note or message, verbal or written, which relates to any bet or wager, or to convey or deliver any information, advice or money for the purpose of making or procuring the making of any bet or wager, or which relates to any bet or wager already made, to any bookmaker, and any bookmaker who accepts from a young person any such slip, note, message, information, advice or money, shall each be guilty of an offence."
The noble Lord said: My object in patting down this somewhat long Amendment is to give effect to the recommendation of the Royal Commission on Lotteries and Betting which will be found in paragraph 379 on page 112 of their Report, which reads:
"Police witnesses and other witnesses suggested the application to England of the Betting (Juvenile Messengers) (Scotland) Act, 1928, which prohibits the use of persons under sixteen years of age in the conveyance of bets. We have reason to believe that many boakmakers in England would welcome a prohibition of the employment of child messengers by backers.
"We consider that the Scottish Act of 1928 is a useful measure. We recommend, for the sake of uniformity with our proposal in paragraph 378, that the provisions of the Act should apply to persons under seventeen, instead of sixteen years of age. The provisions of the Act, thus amended, should apply to England and Wales as well as to Scotland."
I think that this Amendment really speaks for itself. I believe that the Act works quite well in Scotland. Of course there must be many cases in which child messengers succeed in conveying messages without being detected. They are not all so simple as the messenger in a case which I recently observed reported in the Press, where a small child, the bearer of a betting slip from its mother, timidly approached a policeman on duty, and said: "Please, Sir, where can I find the bookie?" The result was inquiries by the policeman as to who had sent the child, which resulted in the prosecution of the parent. I rather think that the mother got off with an admonition.
I may be told by the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill that this Amend-
706
ment was inapplicable as it applies mainly to the carrying of messages off the track; but it seems to me that it might quite well apply to a person sending a message by a small boy to a bookmaker within the premises of the track. People would know that they would find him there and they might quite well send a message. With those words I leave the matter in the hands of the Committee. I feel that we are all at one in desiring to save children from being mixed up in this business more than can be helped. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 2, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Polwarth.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw this Amendment, because it really is one which deals more, as he said himself, with off-the-course betting. I am also given to understand that the use of young persons in the conveyance of betting slips is not believed to be a problem on the track, so I hope the noble Lord will accept what I say, that this really is a matter which is included in off-the-course betting, and I hope he will feel that the Amendment is really not applicable here. Off-the-course betting is not included in this Bill: this is a smaller measure than that, and I do feel that this particular provision is so closely associated with off-the-course betting, that it is really not relevant to the Bill which is now before your Lordships.
LORD POLWARTH: After that explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 14 agreed to.
LORD SANDERSON LORD SANDERSON moved, after Clause 14, to insert the following new clause:
".It shall be unlawful for any bookmaker or commission agent to employ in any business connected with betting any person under the age of eighteen."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is of somewhat the same character as the last two Amendments which we have discussed. I am rather surprised that those responsible for the Bill have not dealt with this matter, which was of course before the Royal Commission and upon which the Royal Commission made a definite recommendation. If it is a

707
bad thing for children under seventeen to have anything to do with betting, it is surely a bad thing for them to be employed by bookmakers and to be right in the midst of the betting atmosphere. The noble Marquess may say that this is ruled out on the ground that it comes under off-the-course betting, but I do not think that it can quite be dismissed in that way, because trying to prevent bookmakers employing young people under seventeen or eighteen years of age on the course is rather different from the other cases which we have had. I therefore hope that the Government will consider the Amendment and accept it, and so make it illegal for bookmakers to employ children under the age of eighteen. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 14, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Sanderson.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think the same arguments apply to this Amendment as to the previous Amendments. The question of differentiating between the ages of seventeen and eighteen is a very difficult matter, as the noble Lord knows quite well. I have pointed out that there are many Acts of Parliament which have taken seventeen as the particular age. As I have said on previous Amendments, this is a matter which is being carefully considered, but it is surrounded with great difficulty. If the noble Lord will allow me to leave it at that, I will ask him to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD SANDERSON: Of course it rather depends on the decision of the noble Marquess on the other Amendments. If he cannot go beyond seventeen with regard to young persons generally, I would of course accept seventeen in relation to this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD POLWARTH LORD POLWARTH moved, after Clause 14, to insert the following new clause:
"It shall be unlawful to admit any child under the age of fourteen (or such age as may from time to time be fixed at which a parent ceases to be under an obligation to cause him to attend school) to any track, as defined in the Bill, where betting by way of bookmaking or by means of a totalisator is carried on."
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment I should like to repeat what
708
I stated to a very small number of your Lordships at a very late hour last night, that I would never have presumed to move this Amendment as it were on my own account. I am not so presumptuous as to suppose that my interest in the welfare of children and young people is greater than that of any other member of your Lordships' House. I am certain that every one of us is anxious to safeguard, as far as possible, the young people of to-day from the many and grave dangers and temptations which beset them, no matter to what class of life they belong. But in moving this Amendment I am not speaking only on my own behalf, but on behalf of the Scottish National Council of Juvenile Organisations, of which I have the honour to be Chairman. That body has on it representatives of all the organisations which take a leading part in promoting the welfare of young people—scouts, guides, Y.M.C.A. and many similar organisations —and also members representing educational and other interests. That body has for many years been watching and considering the dangers and bad effects of betting and gambling upon young people. In fact, as they say in their resolution, for the last ten years they have been considering many aspects of this question and wondering what can be done to deal with it. They are grateful for many provisions of this Bill which are in accordance with the resolutions that they passed, but they are urging very strongly that no child below the school age should be allowed to he present on any race track.
We have a precedent for this. Children are not allowed to enter a public house, and no objection is taken to that. As a matter of fact it is not, I believe, the practice for children to attend a race meeting. I made it my business to visit a track last Monday night in the City of Edinburgh. I had heard about the happy family parties which frequented such gatherings, but the whole crowd—it was a comparatively small one—was made up of very seedy looking youths, about eighteen to twenty years of age, either unemployed or unemployable. There were very few women there, two or three girls, and hardly any middle-aged men. I do not think we wish that children so early in life should be

709
initiated into all that unfortunately takes place on these race tracks. I am, of course, only speaking of children of school age. School children have plenty to occupy and engross their minds without having them distracted by racing. They have, or ought to have, their own organised games and interests, and they will be all the better if they are not allowed to frequent these racing tracks. I very much hope that the Government will give really serious consideration to this matter and will recognise that it is the universal desire so far as I have been able to ascertain of persons interested in the welfare of children that they should be saved from the dangers and evils that are so unfortunately connected with these racing tracks. I beg to move this Amendment as earnestly as I possibly can, and I appeal to noble Lords who have the interests of the young at heart to support this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 14, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Polwarth.)
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: Naturally none of us would wish to see children under fourteen going to these race meetings. Personally I do not bet, and I am not interested from that point of view, but the noble Lord himself has told us that he went to one meeting and could not see any school children there. He has mentioned various pious resolutions from societies in Scotland, but not one has stated that it saw any children under fourteen years of age on these race tracks. If they are not attending these race tracks there is no offence, and I cannot see the use of cramming this Bill with what I might almost call a bogus Amendment, which does not function and is not needed. It is unnecessary to include it in the Bill. The noble Lord took a great deal of trouble to say that it is for school children only. The main thing is that these meetings are held at night. Publicly controlled courses do not want these children there, and on the non-controlled courses, one of which the noble Lord attended, they do not seem to be present.
LORD POLWARTH: I do not know whether it was controlled or not.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I do, because it was reported that the noble Lord went there. These races, as I have said, are
710
held at night, and the children ought to be in bed; in the day they are at school. Although I am in sympathy with the object of the noble Lord I think his Amendment is unnecessary.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: The speech of the noble Duke to which we have just listened is really very strongly in favour of the Amendment. He says he does not wish children to attend racing tracks, that the Greyhound Racing Association does not wish them to go there, and, that, it is bad for them to attend. In those circumstances why not pass the Amendment? After all greyhound racing does take place on Saturday afternoons, when children can go. We are agreed that it is undesirable they should attend these tracks, and therefore why not pass this Amendment?
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: In the discussion it seems to have been assumed that this Amendment will only apply to greyhound racing tracks, but if you look at the definition clause at the end of the Bill, Clause 18, you will see that "'track' means premises on which races of any description, athletic sports or other sporting events take place." I do not think the mover of the Amendment really means to exclude children from places where other sports are taking place, even if a bookmaker did happen to be present, nor, from my own experience, do I think it is at all necessary to exclude children from a field in which point-to-point racing is taking place, merely because a bookmaker may happen to be in another part of the field. I think the Amendment goes farther than is necessary in the interest which the noble Lord has at heart.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I do not think that any one will disagree with the object which the noble Lord has in view. We know quite well that it is not in the interests of a child's physical health that it should attend a track for several hours at night, and in all weathers, and it is hardly a proper part of its education that it should be introduced to the paraphernalia of betting at an early age. The Royal Commission on Lotteries and Betting received a good deal of evidence about the presence of children and young persons at greyhound

711
tracks. The problem appears to be more acute in Scotland than it is in England. I should, however, like to point out the limits to the extent of this problem. In the first place it was established before the Royal Commission that the great majority of the children at dog tracks attend under the charge of parents and adults. Unaccompanied children are kept out of most tracks, mainly of course because they are a nuisance to the management, who do not desire that up-attended children should be wandering about a racecourse.
In the second place the Bill proposes in Clause 14 that it should be an offence to bet with persons under seventeen, either by means of bookmaking or by means of the totalisator. In substance, therefore, the question before the House is whether children who are under the charge of adults and who will not be allowed to engage in betting should be excluded from tracks licensed for betting. We take the view that the prohibition of betting with young persons under seventeen goes a long way to deal with the mischiefs of the attendance of young persons at these tracks; but if the House feels strongly that the provisions in the Bill are not sufficient we will consider the matter further on Report. One matter which would have to be considered further is whether it would not make administration difficult to have children under fourteen kept out of the tracks, young persons from fourteen to seventeen admitted but not allowed to bet, and persons over seventeen admitted and allowed to bet, On the whole, I would ask the House to rely on the existing provisions in the Bill prohibiting betting with persons under seventeen to check the evils which admittedly exist.
LORD POLWARTH: In view of the statement of the noble Marquess I think the Committee will probably desire me to withdraw the Amendment. With reference to what the noble Marquess said regarding unaccompanied children, there is nothing at present to prevent the owners of an impecunious racecourse—and yesterday we were told that many were impecunious—from admitting unaccompanied children for the sake of the money they could bring in. There is the further danger which might arise that
712
special attractions might possibly be offered by unprincipled owners of tracks in order to bring children in and get the gate money which otherwise they would lose. But, as the Government have promised to reconsider the matter of the admission of children and young people, I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 15:
Revocation of licences.
15.—(1) A licensing authority may at any time, after giving to the holder of the licence an opportunity of being heard, revoke a, licence in respect of a track in their licensing area—

(a) if they are satisfied that the track has been conducted in a disorderly manner or so as to cause a nuisance; or

(b) if on a report made to them by the accountant appointed under the First Schedule to this Act, or upon a refusal of that accountant to give such a certificate as is mentioned in the said Schedule, they are satisfied that any totalisator on the track has been maintained or operated otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of that Schedule; or

(c) if the holder of the licence is convicted of any offence (whether at Common Law or under this or any other Act) in connection with the management of the track;

and, if they revoke a licence, shall forthwith send notice of the revocation by post to the holder of the licence.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in subsection (1), after paragraph (a), to insert:
"(b) if without their approval, to he given after such notice as they deem proper, the accommodation for spectators on the track as stated in the notice under subsection (2) of Section five of this Act has been substantially increased, or the exits from the track as described in that notice have been materially altered, and they are satisfied that undue congestion of traffic or serious prejudice to the preservation of law and order has resulted therefrom; or"
The noble Earl said: This Amendment is consequential on the Government Amendment to Clause 5, page 2, line 31. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 9, at end insert the said paragraph.—(The Earl of Feversharm.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 18, after ("licence") insert ("or, where the holder is a corporate body, any director or the manager thereof").—(The Earl of Feversham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASKWITH LORD ASKWITH had on the Paper an Amendment in paragraph (c) of subsection (1), to leave out "(whether at Common Law or under this or any other Act)" and insert "under this Part of this Act." The noble Lord said: The noble Marquess in the case of Clause 6, subsection (1) (b), regarding an application for a licence, was unable to accept similar words applying to that very odd clause, and that clause has not got, as the Bill stands, any possibility of appeal. In this case, which is the case of the revocation of a licence, there is an appeal allowed. Therefore, there is the discretion not only of the licensing authority but also, in necessary cases, of the Quarter Sessions. In these circumstances I do not move the Amendment.
LORD JESSEL LORD JESSEL moved, at the end of paragraph (c) of subsection (1), to insert "or of any offence involving fraud or dishonesty." The noble Lord said: The Government accepted similar words on Clause 6. I understand that they will accept this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 21, after ("track") insert the said words.—(Lord Jessel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert "and to the chief officer of Police." The noble Earl said: This Amendment provides that where a licensing authority has revoked a licence it shall send notice of such revocation to the chief officer of Police, in addition to the holder of the licence as proposed by the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 24, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16 agreed to.
Clause 17 [Amendment and interpretation of Racecourse Betting Act,1928]:
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL moved to insert the following new subsection:
714
"(4) The purposes for which the Racecourse Betting Control Board, acting under paragraph (6) of Section three of the Racecourse Betting Act, 1928, may, in accordance with a scheme approved by the Secretary of State, apply moneys comprised in the totalisator fund shall include purposes conducive to the advancement and encouragement of veterinary science and education."
The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is that veterinary science and education may be included among the purposes to which the profits of the totalisator under the Racecourse Betting Act, 1928, may be devoted. At present these purposes are limited by that Act to "purposes conducive to the improvement of breeds of horses or the sport of horse racing." I should have thought that the advance of veterinary science and education would have been advantageous to the breeding of horses, but we have been advised that there is at all events considerable doubt upon that point. I am sure your Lordships will agree that there is no more suitable object to be found for the spending of money than that.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 37, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Government will be pleased to accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, after Clause 17, to insert the following new clause.
Saving for totalisator and bookmaking at motor race meetings licensed by Royal Automobile Club.
".—(1) Nothing in this Part of this Act shall apply to betting on the results of motor races run on a motor racing track licensed by the Royal Automobile Club and nothing in this Act or any other enactment or rule of law shall prevent the provision of betting facilities for the purpose only of betting on the results Qf such motor races by the setting up and operation of a totalisator or by bookmaking carried on by bookmakers by leave of the lessees of the track and under such conditions as they may impose.
(2) On any motor racing track where a totalisator is operated the conditions under which it may be operated shall include a condition that the person by whom the totalisator is operated shall distribute or cause to be distributed the whole of the

715
moneys staked on any race or races by means of the totalisator among the persons winning bets made by means of the totalisator on that race or those races after deducting or causing to be deducted not more than ten per cent, of such moneys.
(3) If and whenever leave is given by the lessees of any motor racing track for the provision of betting facilities on any such motor racing track space shall be made available on the track for bookmakers to carry on bookmaking in connection with the motor races run on the track subject to such conditions for securing good behaviour as the said lessees may think fit to impose and the charge made to any bookmaker for admission to the track or a specified portion thereof to carry on bookmaking shall not be higher than the charge made in like circumstances to any other bookmaker for that purpose."
The noble Duke said: This Amendment, which I move on behalf of my noble friend Lord Cottenham, is very much the same as the new clause after Clause 18, an Amendment down in my own name. With the leave of the House I will take them together. I have a short note with regard to the matter by the Secretary of the Aero Club, and it applies to both these Amendments. Therefore I will read it:
"The object of this clause is to keep aerodromes and aeroplane races outside the scope of Part I of the Bill. The definition of 'track' in Clause 18, page 16, line 16, is as follows: '"track" means premises on which races of any description, athletic sports or other sporting events take place'; and the effect of the preceding Clauses 1 to 16 is to prohibit betting on a track except under a licence granted by the local authority, and subject to all the conditions laid down in those clauses. The Royal Aero Club are the representative body controlling all aeroplane races, and in the past it has been their practice to permit betting on the races at the aerodromes. The facilities so provided have been much appreciated by supporters who come to watch the start or finish of racing, and no complaint has ever been made that any other control for the betting is required than that provided by the Club. With regard to the totalisator it may be convenient to make provision for this as an alternative to bookmaking, and clubs are advised that unless some provision is made in the Bill giving sanction for the totalisator the decisions of the Courts under the Betting Acts would prevent a totalisator being operated at an aerodrome."
Exactly the same thing applies to Brook-lands, and in each case the manufacturers concerned are in favour of reasonable betting under proper control. I shall not say any more than that because I do not want to delay the Committee.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 17, insert the said new clause.—(The Duke of Atholl.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment which the noble Duke has moved in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Cottenham, and the similar Amendment which comes in his own name later on, are really more far-reaching than the speech of the noble Duke would lead us to suppose. The Bill sets up an elaborate scheme for regulating the provision of betting facilities on the course, and as the Bill is drafted the system of regulation is to be applied to all tracks alike on which races of any description, athletic sports or other sporting events take place. The effect of this Amendment would be to exempt altogether from the scheme of control prescribed in the Bill tracks on which motor races are run if the tracks are licensed by the Royal Automobile Club. There would be no limit to the number of days on which betting facilities could be provided on such tracks, although horse racing, dog racing and all forms of athletic sports would remain subject to a statutory annual maximum number of betting days. It would be open to the Royal Automobile Club to license as many motor racing tracks as they thought fit, and there would be nothing to prevent the management of such tracks from conducting or allowing betting facilities thereon every day of the week.
One of the main objects of the Bill is to impose such restrictions as are thought to be reasonably necessary in the public interest on the provision of organised facilities for continuous gambling, and if this Amendment were accepted one of the main purposes of the Bill would be defeated. The Amendment would put it in the power of a private and unofficial body such as the Royal Automobile Club to decide the extent to which gambling facilities on certain types of track should be allowed, and in the Government's view this question of public policy is a matter for the decision of some responsible public body, acting under the guidance of general principles laid down by Parliament. I think I have shown to your Lordships that this Amendment will affect one of the main objects of the Bill, and I hope your Lordships will join with the Government in resisting it.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I would remind the noble Marquess that there is a good deal of difference between dog racing tracks and the Royal Aero Club and the Royal Automobile Club, which exist to a very great extent to bring out new machines and to encourage a great trade; and where meetings are held, not for the purpose of betting, but for the purpose I have mentioned, there is a great deal of difference between such a track and a dog racing track, which exists solely and only, as far as I can make out, for the purpose of betting.
LORD STRABOLGI: May I ask the noble Duke if it has occurred to him that a great many people object to betting on aeroplane races because it may lead to loss of life, and that the same thing also applies to motor racing? Many of us look upon it as very objectionable to have gambling in any form connected with motor racing or air racing.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: That may be so, but both official bodies have suggested there should be betting.
LORD STRABOLGI: With great respect to the noble Duke I have had a good deal to do with both bodies, especially with the Royal Aero Club, and while I appreciate all they have done for sport, I am both surprised and disappointed to hear they have officially put forward a plea for betting on aeroplane racing in this country.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 18 agreed to.
Clause 19 [Illegality of lotteries]:
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: Before this clause is passed I should be glad if the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill would describe to the House what he means by a lottery, as the words in the clause, "all lotteries," seem to me to be rather sweeping. It is just as well that the public should know not only what constitutes an offence such as we find in this Bill, but also what constitutes a lottery. My reason for asking this is that ignorance on this point may lead virtuous people astray and involve them in a heavy fine and imprisonment. For instance, all members of your Lordships' House have received a notice of a ballot, of which apparently the Lord Chancellor is the promoter. They have been asked to sub-
718
scribe 7s. 6d. each for the chance of obtaining a prize in the shape of a seat for the ceremony of Trooping the Colour on June 4. All the money subscribed is to go to expenses. The money is to be enclosed with the application, and in no circumstances will the money be returned, although it is not known whether the amount received will be sufficient to pay for the erection of the stands or whether it will be in excess of the amount required. Perhaps the noble Marquess will tell me in what way this so-called ballot differs from a lottery. If it does not, I feel that I should warn a certain high dignitary of this House as well as the Secretary to the War Office that lotteries promoted for good or national objects in this country are not always looked upon favourably by the authorities, and that the Police, while they are active in these days, sometimes exceed their instructions.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Duke has asked me a specific question as to what is a definition of a lottery. I should have thought that the noble Duke could have enlightened your Lordships on that point and could have given us a specific definition himself, but I have now had placed in my hands a definition of a lottery which is: "A scheme for the distribution of prizes by lot or chance."
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: That, I understand, is the same as a ballot.
Clause 19 agreed to.
Clause 20:
Offences in connection with lotteries.
20.—(1) Subject to the provisions of his section, every person who in connection with any lottery promoted or proposed to be promoted either in Great Britain or elsewhere—

(a) prints any tickets for use in the lottery; or

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (1), after "lottery," to insert "except as regards printing elsewhere." The noble Duke said: The purpose of this Amendment, if the Government think it necessary, is that a printer should not be prevented from printing tickets for foreign lotteries or sweepstakes which, to all appearances, are not intended for circulation in Great Britain and which are not likely to offend against our laws. It would certainly be a restriction on a perfectly legitimate

719
trade, in which our printers excel, if we were to put difficulties in their way as has been suggested. Quite possibly this is dealt with under subsection (2), and if the noble Marquess will assure me that this point is covered, then I will withdraw this Amendment. It is quite a friendly Amendment, and I am not quite certain whether it does not go further than was intended.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 39, after ("lottery") insert ("except as regards printing elsewhere").—(The Duke of Atholl.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I am not quite clear as to the noble Duke's intention, but I presume he means that the printing of tickets outside Great Britain should not be an offence. If this is the object he has in mind the Amendment is quite unnecessary, as all the offences under Clause 20 must be committed in Great Britain.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: The printing has got to be done before the offence is committed. Supposing there was a sweepstake in some foreign country: there is no reason why our printers should not print the tickets so long as they are honest people and it is not against the law in this country. I am not quite certain whether it is covered in a later Amendment I am going to press.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: May I ask the noble Marquess whether foreign premium bonds which might be printed in this country for foreign Governments would not come under this Bill?
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I will make inquiries.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: If the noble Marquess makes inquiries before Report I shall be content.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 20 agreed to.
Clause 21:
Exemption of small lotteries incidental to certain entertainments.
21.—(1) A lottery promoted as an incident of an entertainment to which this section applies shall be deemed not to be an unlawful lottery, but the conditions specified in the next succeeding subsection shall be observed in connection with the promotion and conduct of the lottery, and, if any of those conditions is broken, every person con-
720
cerned in the promotion or conduct of the lottery shall be guilty of an offence unless he proves that the offence was committed without his knowledge.
(2) The conditions referred to in the preceding subsection are that—

(a) the whole proceeds of the entertainment (including the proceeds of the lottery) after deducting all expenses, not being expenses incurred in connection with the lottery, shall be devoted to purposes other than private gain;

(c) tickets or chances in the lottery shall not be sold or issued, nor shall the result of the lottery be declared, except on the premises on which the entertainment takes place and during the progress of the entertainment; and

(3) The entertainments to which this section applies are bazaars, sales of work, fetes and other entertainments of a similar character, whether limited to one day or extending over two or more days.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (2), to leave out "not being expenses incurred in connection with the lottery." The noble Duke said: The whole of this subsection is rather involved, but I assume that it means there are to be no expenses incurred in connection with the lottery, and that otherwise such expenses might be wrongfully buried in the proceeds of the entertainment. But I would point out that tickets have to be printed, and therefore some expenses must go towards lotteries. Sometimes it is the custom to purchase an article at a cheap rate and sell it at an enhanced price for the benefit of the bazaar or entertainment. I hope, for this reason, the words to which I object will be omitted as being quite unnecessary in small transactions of this kind.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 25, leave out "not being expenses incurred in connection with the lottery").—(The Duke of Atholl.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The existing provisions in the Bill are to the effect that in the case of those small lotteries, promoted as an incident to a bazaar or sale of work, which are to be made legal, the whole proceeds must be devoted to purposes other than private gain and that no deduction must be made for expenses in running the lotteries. The noble Duke's Amendment would allow expenses to be deducted. The provision that no expenses must be charged for

721
the promotion of the lottery, as your Lordships will see, is the main safeguard to ensure that the exemption operates only in favour of those harmless raffles and things of that sort at charity bazaars and the like for which it is intended. If private gain is allowed to enter, under colour of expenses or otherwise, then the exemption will attract those individuals who make a living by lottery promotion, whose activities the noble Duke from his personal experience deplored in his Second Reading speech, and all manner of undesirable schemes will be liable to be promoted.
The noble Duke, I am sure, sees the great difficulty in which we are placed. We have to look round the whole question and see that we do not, by some apparently harmless words incorporated in an Amendment, open the door for something which he himself desires to prohibit just as much as we do. No expenses are necessary in the promotion of bazaar raffles and undertakings of that description. I would certainly ask the Committee to reject this Amendment and would give them an undertaking that the Government would introduce an Amendment on the Report stage which would allow the expenses incurred in the printing of tickets for bazaar raffles to be admitted. That seems to me the only possible legitimate expense which can be incurred with a raffle of this description. This Amendment, which I am foreshadowing, would, therefore, bring the scheme for bazaar lotteries into closer line with the scheme for club lotteries which comes later on in the Bill. I hope, therefore, the noble Duke will not press his Amendment.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I only meant printing and stationery.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved to omit all words down to and including "except" in paragraph (c) in subsection (2) and to insert "the result of the lottery shall be declared." The noble Duke said: My Amendment suggests that the words from "tickets" to "except" inclusive should be deleted and the words "the result of the lottery shall be declared" inserted in their place. It does seem rather absurd that for such small entertainments or bazaars, to which alone this clause refers, tickets should be
722
allowed to be sold only on the premises. It surely is in your Lordships' knowledge that it is a constant practice for people to undertake to sell a book beforehand, and in small communities it may be the only way of raising sufficient money for the purpose of the bazaar or entertainment. As I have said, since it only refers to small entertainments, it seems to be a rather hard and unnecessary provision. People may adjourn to dinner from a bazaar and may sell some tickets at a neighbouring house perfectly innocently. It seems absurd not to allow such a thing to be done. It is also hard that no one should be allowed to sell tickets round a neighbourhood for small affairs.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 30, leave out from ("(c)" to the first ("on") in line 32 and insert ("the result of the lottery shall be declared)".—(The Duke of Atholl.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Bill proposes that tickets in a small lottery promoted at bazaars and sales of work of the type allowed under Clause 21 shall only be issued and sold at the bazaar or sale of work. The noble Duke proposes that this requirement should be deleted. The result would be that the lottery could become a public lottery in which tickets could be hawked from door to door or sold in the streets without any restriction whatsoever, and the professional lottery promoter could evade the general prohibition of large-scale lotteries by the simple expedient of conducting his lottery as an incident of a bazaar which he had organised specially for this purpose. The connection with the bazaar would be simply that the drawing was arranged to take place there. The noble Duke's proposal, especially if coupled with his earlier proposal that expenses should be allowed in the conduct of those lotteries, would mean that large public lotteries could be promoted under the guise of this exemption framed in favour of small schemes such as raffles.
As your Lordships are aware, the Government, having decided that large lotteries are undesirable, cannot agree to any proposal which would have the result of enabling large schemes to be promoted under cover of the exemptions for club sweepstakes and bazaar raffles. Even under the noble Duke's own scheme it

723
would be ridiculous that large lotteries should be promoted by virtue of Clause 21 as amended by him when, in a later new clause, he is proposing that large lotteries should only be promoted by the State or under licence of the Secretary of State subject to rigid conditions. If, as the Government propose, the sale of tickets in the exempted lotteries under Clause 21 is confined to the bazaar or sale of work in connection with which the lottery is promoted, the other requirements can be reduced to a minimum. This is highly desirable, since there are manifest objections to any scheme under which the raffling of articles left unsold at a bazaar should be subject to a long catalogue of conditions. In these circumstances I think your Lordships will agree that this Amendment cannot be accepted.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I would suggest that it is surely not difficult to find some machinery to prevent it developing into what the noble Marquess calls a national lottery or something of that sort. I am only thinking of some small church bazaar or village bazaar. It is always for something in kind and never for any valuable prize. It would be easy to say that the value should not be more than a certain sum. I think the Government might think out something which would cover the point.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: It seems to me that there is something false in the Government's argument. It is suggested that it should be perfectly legal to have a small lottery in the rectory garden and illegal to have a slightly larger one somewhere else. There is no sound principle in it—especially when one remembers that quite unconsciously the small lottery is often far more dishonestly run than the larger one. I hope the Government will consider this rather more carefully. I have one particular lottery in mind which has raised very large sums for charity with the minimum of expense and was only stopped by the action of a common informer some three or four years ago. It seems a pity that such a lottery should not be allowed to go on. In that particular case it was run in connection with a three days' fête and tickets were sold all over the South of England. I hope the Government will consider the ethics of the case, if I may so put it, and will allow the larger lottery as well as the
724
small one, under proper safeguards that there should be no private profit.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Earl has made a speech which seems to imply that the officials of the Home Office have taken no steps to consider this matter carefully. By far the easiest course we could pursue would be to prohibit raffles altogether, and I am sure that would receive support from many members of your Lordships' House; but taking into account the fact that the public do not believe that raffles are harmful we have spent a good deal of time in endeavouring to see that raffles are made as harmless as possible. I think the noble Earl should appreciate—I think the noble Duke does appreciate—that we have put forward proposals in quite good faith for dealing with this matter. Immense schemes might be put forward if an Amendment which appears to be of a very harmless character is inserted in the Bill. I would venture to ask for the noble Earl's commiseration rather than his criticism in dealing with a matter which bristles with difficulties. I would invite the noble Earl to help us instead of suggesting that the officials of the Home Office are so lax that they have not taken proper trouble to consider this subject.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: I was only suggesting that a somewhat larger lottery might do no more harm than a small lottery.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: It might perhaps meet the convenience of your Lordships if we adjourn the discussion at this point and resume our duties at 9.15.
[The sitting was suspended at five minutes before eight o'clock and resumed at a quarter past nine o'clock.]
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI moved, in subsection (3), after "entertainments," to insert "affording scope for skill and." The noble Lord said: When we adjourned I had ringing in my ears the remarks of the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill about the great efficiency of his advisers at the Home Office, with every word of which I entirely agreed. When I move this Amendment, which is of an exploratory nature, I do not want the noble Marquess to suppose for a moment that

725
I consider that these things have been overlooked, but the unfortunate lieges outside, the simple people who find themselves on occasions quite unexpectedly prosecuted—I do not refer here to the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, but to other people who find themselves within the clutches of the law when they never expected it—are very puzzled indeed about the meaning of certain clauses of this Bill, including Clause 21. Therefore I have put down this Amendment to add the words which appear on the Order Paper to subsection (3) of this clause.
If your Lordships will look at subsection (3) as drawn you will see that it says:
"The entertainments to which this section applies are bazaars, sales of work, fêtes, and other entertainments of a similar character…"
I take the word "entertainments" to mean amusements at fêtes, sales of work, and so on, and I am going to move to insert the words "affording scope for skill and". With that addition the subsection would read:
"The entertainments to which this section applies are bazaars, sales of work, fêtes and other etnertainments affording scope for skill and or a similar character…"
It might be read into my Amendment that I was pretending that sales of work afforded scope for skill, but that is not the intention at all. As a matter of fact, any one who has organised a sale of work knows that it takes not only a great deal of skill but a great deal of tact, and that if you get through the organisation of a bazaar or anything of that kind without making a dozen mortal enemies, you are very fortunate. But leaving that aside my Amendment must be read with a later Amendment which I have proposed to the Second Schedule, to deal with the Gaming Act, 1853, which is the most extraordinary Act on the Statute Book, I believe, as regards drafting, but to which I will not refer at this moment.
My object is really to get a declaration from the Government that the fears of certain people who operate various entertainments are not well grounded, in that they will not come within the scope of the Bill and be liable to prosecution. The entertainments to which I refer are those which were familiar to many of your Lordships in your younger and perhaps happier days on village fair
726
grounds. I think the most simple and obviously the most harmless of all is the cocoanut shy. There is no money prize there; the prize is a cocoanut. I dare say the noble Marquess remembers having enjoyed himself in his younger days throwing wooden balls at cocoanuts. Is that an exercise of skill? I know that the noble Earl, Lord Feversham, has not forgotten his cocoanuts on those village fair grounds. But now we come to other forms of entertainment, where the prize is not a cocoanut but a clock or a lady's handbag. There is an entertainment known as "Aunt Sally." During the War "Aunt Sally" was the Kaiser or the Crown Prince of Germany; to-day "Aunt Sally" is the Prime Minister or Mr. Hitler or some other prominent person. A clay pipe is inserted in the month of this figure, and the lieges enjoy themselves very much throwing wooden balls and trying to break the clay pipe. When they have broken the clay pipe they get a clock or some other prize. Apparently these people are going to be liable to prosecution.
But I am going to take the matter a little further. It appears that there is an entertainment—a game—of semi-skill called the "Bombing Aeroplane." This will be of particular importance in the mind of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Air. He obviously wants to have an air-minded people and I dare say he is not averse from seeing the people playing with these means of entertainment. The aeroplane, I understand, is flown across the machine and if you are sufficiently skilful to drop its bombs inside the clock tower or the church tower or whatever it is, you gef a small prize or you get your money back. I am advised by learned counsel who advise the amusement caterers and travelling showmen and others who make their living in this way, that the Bill will still further strengthen the law against them. Indeed, I am told that the game of darts in the village inn—in which, as your Lordships will know, there is a target marked with numbers, and those frequenting the inn each have a dart and they play a game or a competition and I suppose the loser pays for the drinks, or there is a small prize, or they pool their stakes or whatever it is—may come within the provisions of this Bill.
Are these people engaging in an illegal lottery? Are they engaging in gaming? Is the Bill intended to apply to them? The noble Marquess has said that he is not dealing with off-the-course betting in this Bill, but he has already proposed to your Lordships' House, and he has successfully proposed, to exempt the pari mutuel and the football pool. I suggest that the situation is at present very complicated indeed and needs clearing up. The object, therefore, in moving this Amendment, which must be read in conjunction with my proposed Amendment to the Schedule later on, is to know whether the Government intend to leave things as they are with regard to these games of semi-skill, where a certain element of skill enters in. I am sure that not one of the occupants of the Ecclesiastical Bench in your Lordships' House nor one social reformer will ever maintain that any one has been ruined or morally damaged by these harmless games of semi-skill played or competed in for prizes usually of quite small value.
The actual words which I have put down may be not very well drafted, but then a great deal of this Bill is not very well drafted. It may be that the noble Marquess or his advisers have some better form of words, in which case I will be quite content to accept them. I only want to be perfectly certain that the harmless games that I have described, such as the "Bombing Aeroplane," "Aunt Sally," the game of darts and so on, will not create a new offence as illegal lotteries, and that people whom I am sure it is not intended by the Government to damage will not find themselves prosecuted by perhaps over-officious local authorities for unwittingly breaking the law as laid down in this Bill which is before your Lordships.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 40, after ("entertainments") insert ("affording scope for skill and").—(Lord Strabolgi.)
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: The noble Lord who has moved this Amendment has done so with this proviso: instead of the clause being defined to apply to entertainments such as "bazaars, sales of work, fetes and other entertainments of a similar character," at which lotteries can be conducted, in his Amendment he has added to that wording with "affording scope for skill and of a similar
728
character." In moving the Amendment the noble Lord has properly said that it is not his intention to limit that Amendment to such entertainments as bazaars, sales of work and other entertainments which the noble Lord himself admits do not afford any scope for skill, but I submit that the noble Lord in moving his. Amendment has placed it in the wrong line of the clause. If his Amendment stands as he has expressed it, it will imply that the bazaars and sales of work which are to be held will be considered as entertainments of skill. The noble Lord has confined his remarks to entertainments of such a character as fairs and the places at which side shows are held, such as the "Aunt Sally" which the noble Lord quoted, and with which he took for granted I was familiar, and cocoanut shies.
I would point out to the noble Lord that one of the conditions prescribed in paragraph (a) of subsection (2) is that the proceeds of the entertainment shall be devoted to purposes other than private gain, and many of the side shows to which he has referred are not run on this basis. Further, in this Bill there is no restriction on such side shows as the noble Lord has made reference to. That is controlled by the Second Part of the Act of 1853, to which the noble Lord will no doubt make reference on his later Amendment to the Second Schedule, but I can assure the noble Lord, who seems to be under some misapprehension, that the scope of this Bill in no way deals with gaming, to which he attached a large portion of his remarks, and that particular type of amusement; that the Bill is restricted to gambling and betting on the premises of a racing track; and, further, that by his subsequent Amendment, to which this has reference, he would in fact be repealing the Second Part of the Act of 1853.
Therefore, I think it can be clearly understood that the side-shows to which the noble Lord opposite has made reference, such as cocoanut shies, "Aunt Sallies," and the particular amusement called houp-la, will not be restricted by the clause as it now stands, but that if this Amendment were carried, with the subsequent Amendment which the noble Lord has on the Paper, then it would control the Act of 1853, with which this Bill has no connection. On those grounds

729
I hope the noble Lord will see his way to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am very much obliged to the noble Earl for his clear and lucid explanation, and after what he has said I have no intention of pressing my Amendment. I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 21 agreed to.
Clause 22:
Exemption of private lotteries.
(2) A private lottery shall be deemed not to be an unlawful lottery, but the following conditions shall be observed in connection with the promotion and conduct of the lottery, that is to say—
(d) every ticket shall bear upon the face of it a statement of the persons to whom the sale of tickets or chances by the promoters is restricted, and a statement that no prize won in the lottery shall be paid or delivered by the promoters to any person other than the person to whom the winning ticket or chance was sold by them, and no prize shall be paid or delivered except in accordance with that statement;
(e) no ticket or chance shall be issued or alloted by the promoters except by way of sale and upon receipt of the full price thereof, and no money so received by a promoter shall in any circumstances be returned;
(f) no tickets in the lottery shall be sent through the post; and
(g) before selling any tickets or chances, the promoters shall give by registered letter to the chief officer of police a notice, signed by each of them, stating the purposes for which they intend to promote the lottery and the full names and addresses of each of the promoters.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in paragraph (d) of subsection (2), after "it", to insert "the names and addresses of each of the promoters and". The noble Earl said: Paragraph (g) of Clause 22 (2) proposes that the promoters of an exempted "private lottery" shall, before selling any tickets or chances, give by registered letter to the chief officer of Police a notice signed by each of the promoters stating the purposes for which they intend to promote the lottery and the full names and address of each of the promoters. This proposal has been criticised on the ground that it subjects club lotteries to supervision by the Police and imports a new restriction to which clubs have not been subject in the past.
730
I should like to emphasise, however, that the clause in the Bill does not give the Police any power to supervise club lotteries, nor does it require that the lottery should be approved by the Police, nor does it empower the Police to invade club premises for the purpose of exercising supervision. As the Bill stands, the only circumstances in which the Police can enter club premises in which a lottery is being conducted are if they can satisfy a magistrate, by information on oath, that there is reasonable ground to suspect that the club is not complying with the conditions to be observed in connection with the promotion of an exempted lottery.
Paragraph (g) was designed for the purpose of providing machinery for preventing unlawful lotteries from being promoted surreptitiously under the guise of the exemption in favour of club lotteries. Another object was to provide machinery for enforcing the requirement that tickets in a club lottery should be sold by the promoters only to members of the club, and it is for this reason that it was proposed that the promoters should notify their names and addresses to the Police. The Government, however, realise the strength of the feeling which has been manifested against the proposal requiring clubs to notify to the Police the intention to promote a lottery. They have also been impressed by the possibility of difficulties arising in the case of a lottery promoted by a club at short notice. There is also the further consideration that notification to the Police might be taken to imply that the Police had some responsibility for the conduct of the lottery.
The Government have accordingly decided that the purpose which they had in view could be met in another way, which they think is not open to objection. The effect of this Amendment is that the name and address of each of the promoters is to be printed on the face of any ticket issued in connection with an exempted private lottery. I believe that this Amendment will provide the machinery for the purpose of facilitating enforcement of the provision that tickets in exempted private lotteries should be sold by the promoters only to members of the society or club. I hope that the Amendment will meet the criticism which was raised by Lord

731
Bayford on Second Reading, and I have at some length gone into the purpose of the Amendment in order that the noble Lord who has an Amendment to move will be satisfied with the arrangement that the Government have made.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 4, after ("it") insert ("the names and addresses of each of the promoters and").—(The Earl of Feversham.)
LORD JESSEL: My noble friend Lord Bayford is here, but this Amendment has been rather sprung upon him, and I should like to ask the noble Earl who is replying for the Government exactly what is meant by "the name and address of each of the promoters" as regards tickets. It is well known that in many clubs there are no tickets at all. I am only asking for information, for I am sure the Government have considered the matter fully. Will it be sufficient to put the name of the club and the name of the secretary, or will it be necessary to put the whole of the names of the committee or of some responsible person? Perhaps the noble Earl will give us an indication of exactly what is meant by the Government Amendment and also deal with the matter I put forward, that in the case of many of these sweepstakes on Derby lotteries no tickets are issued at all. A man goes into his club, puts his name down opposite a number, and that is all. It will be a great convenience if the noble Lord will tell us what is meant by this proposal, because there is no doubt a great deal of anxiety in the country regarding this matter.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: The proposal of the Government is that the names and addresses of the promoters of the lottery should only be issued in connection with those lotteries for which the promoters have found it necessary to issue tickets. If the promoters of any lottery desire, as in the past, that no tickets shall be issued, that arrangement will in no way be changed by the Bill. It is only in those cases where it is found expedient that tickets should be issued that the Government have seen their way to ask that the name and address of the responsible person or persons should be notified to the public in order to avoid the necessity of notification to the Police. I hope that explanation will meet the question raised by the noble Lord.
LORD BAYFORD: The explanation given and the Amendment on the Paper satisfy the point I raised, and I am quite content with the arrangement.
LORD STRABOLGI: I do not think the noble Earl is really familiar with the way these things are done. Has he never been to a church bazaar? Has he never been accosted by a young lady with a cushion in her hand? Has he never been asked to take a ticket for a cushion he did not want and in return receive a numbered ticket, and at the end of the evening's entertainment the prize is drawn out of a hat? You cannot have the names and addresses of the promoters of a lottery in such a case, and that is a lottery within the meaning of this Bill. Really the thing is unworkable, with great respect to the noble Earl and all his advisers.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: I should like to reinforce what has been said by the noble Lord opposite. The Amendment is to insert the name and address of each of the promoters. The noble Lord has made it perfectly clear that this provision virtually is confined to the village lottery. In the case of a properly conducted village lottery the promoters are the whole village. In the case of the perfectly conducted village lottery every member who is going to the fete, sale of work, or entertainment is a promoter, and by virtue of his position feels bound to take a ticket in the lottery. That is the perfect village lottery, but if each ticket is to carry all their names and addresses a Bible will be needed for the purpose.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I would point out that both the noble Lord opposite and the noble Earl who last spoke are under some misapprehension, because this clause has nothing whatever to do with the lotteries that have been quoted—that is, bazaar lotteries. Those lotteries are dealt with under a different clause. If, as I have previously said, the promoters of a lottery have in the past, for the expediency of the organisation of such lotteries, found it necessary to issue tickets, they will in future issue the same tickets with the names and addresses of the promoters of such lottery, but the references to the particular class of lottery which have just been made do not have any connection with or bearing upon the present Amendment.
LORD STRABOLGI: Surely, under Clause 22 (1) (a), they have. A church society or boy scouts organisation often run a bazaar in the summer time at a country house and they have just the kind of lottery I attempted to describe. However, I am sure the noble Lord will bear these things in mind for a later stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: The next Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 17, at end insert ("and").—(The Earl of Feversham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved to add to paragraph (f) in subsection (2) "except to members of the society for whom the lottery is promoted." The noble Duke said: As it has already been settled that tickets can only be sold to members of a club or a society, it does seem rather absurd that tickets which have the names of individuals marked on them cannot be sent to the individuals concerned. People have to send them out, and surely they ought to have a receipt if they are living at a distance and cannot visit the premises of the society or club to which they belong. It is a matter of common sense and would do no harm.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 19, after ("post") insert ("except to members of the society for whom the lottery is promoted").—(The Duke of Atholl.)
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: There are, I think, two reasons why the Amendment of the noble Duke could not be accepted.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: One is enough.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: As the noble Duke says one reason is enough, I will confine my remarks to the first one. The lotteries which exemptions are intended to allow are relatively small in size. It is not desired to encourage a nation-wide organisation such as the Royal Automobile Club to promote a large lottery on a national al scale, and the restriction that the post must not be used for private lotteries will, I think, help to achieve this object. It is not practicable for the Post Office to distinguish between illegal lotteries, exempted lotteries, and illegal lotteries masquerading as exempted
734
lotteries. For reasons of administration it is essential to have a clear line either that the post is not prohibited to any lottery promoter or that it is prohibited to all. I think that reason against the Amendment is sufficient to convince the noble Duke.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: It is not nearly enough to convince me, but the hour is getting late and I am quite prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: The next Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 19, leave out from ("post") to the end of paragraph (g).—(The Earl of Feversham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 22, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 23 agreed to.
Clause 24:
Restriction, on certain prize competitions.
24.—(1) It shall be unlawful to conduct in or through any newspaper, or in connection with any trade or business or the sale of any article to the public—

(a) any competition in which prizes are offered for forecasts of the result either of a future event, or of a past event the result of which is not yet ascertained or not yet generally known;

(b) any other competition success in which does not depend to a substantial degree upon the exercise of skill.

(2) Any person who contravenes the provisions of this section shall be guilty of an offence, without prejudice, however, to his liability, if any, to be proceeded against under the preceding provisions of this Part of this Act relating to lotteries.
LORD SANDERSON LORD SANDERSON moved, in subsection (1), to leave out paragraph (b) and to insert: "(b) any competition for which entrance fees are required." The noble Lord said: I am moving this Amendment because I am not satisfied with the method suggested for dealing with these competitions. I do not think that the phrase "substantial degree of skill" is sufficiently definite. What does it mean? I understand that there is no legal meaning at all. If you adopt the clause as it stands I think the result will be that things will be left much as they are with regard to these competitions. Of course there are many small competitions involving a considerable degree of real skill,

735
for which not very large prizes are offered. I think those do not do much harm and they probably give a great deal of amusement to those who enter them. On the other hand, there are competitions in which huge prizes are offered, which really are nothing more than veiled lotteries, and they are not very much veiled. Probably they are familiar to your Lordships.
There are competitions in which prizes of as much as £2,000, or £10 a week for life as an alternative, are offered. Those are very big prizes. There have even been prizes, I believe, of as much as £100,000. Such competitions are really lotteries. Then there are crossword puzzles, any number of them, with very large prizes offered. They are competitions in which there are literally millions of solutions. Mathematicians, I am told, have worked out some of them and have calculated that there are millions of different solutions. That means that people who go in for them simply have to try to guess the solution which is in the desk of the editor of the paper—a feat against which there are ten million chances to one. That is a lottery. I do not think it can be called anything else. In the earlier part of this Bill the Government have taken some very drastic measures for the prevention of lotteries, measures with which I entirely agree, but if they really mean to deal thoroughly with this question of lotteries, I think they must do something more definite than say that they are going to make legal competitions where a "substantial degree of skill" is shown.
The newspapers promoting some of these competitions to which I refer demand entrance fees, 1½d., 3d. or 6d.—6d., I believe, is the usual fee. It is out of those sixpences and threepences that the prizes are paid. The Royal Commission discovered that in a single year no less than £3,000,000 went through the Post Office in postal orders and stamps in connection with these competitions. If the newspapers can get £3,000,000 a year out of their contributors they can naturally afford to give pretty good prizes. I suggest that if the Government really want to deal with this subject in a thorough manner they should make illegal entrance fees to these competitions. That would not, of course, stop the competitions altogether, but there
736
would not be such large prizes offered, you would not have people buying dozens of papers, and they would be smaller affairs altogether. Smaller prizes would be offered and probably they would be comparatively harmless. I think that is the proper way to deal with the subject.
That is not at all a new suggestion; almost precisely the same plan was suggested by the Joint Select Committee on Lotteries which sat in 1908. I do not think there would really be much opposition from the Press if this plan were adopted. I believe that the higher-class papers would be in favour of a proposal of that kind, because at present they are obliged to continue that kind of competition owing to the competitions of what I may call the less high class of papers. I do not think there would be much opposition there, and if the Government really want a satisfactory solution of the problem, I believe that the suggestion contained in my Amendment is the best, and that it really is a satisfactory solution. I hope the Government will accept the Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 15, leave out paragraph (b) and insert ("(b) any competition for which entrance fees are required").—(Lord Sanderson.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Under this proposal competitions which are promoted by newspapers or trading firms would be restricted by prohibiting the charging of entrance fees instead of, as under the Bill, prohibiting those which do not contain a substantial element of skill. The noble Lord's objection to the proposal which is embodied in the Bill, an objection which he expressed in the Second Reading debate, is that he believes that "a substantial degree of skill" is not easily defined and will give a good deal of work to the lawyers. The argument which the noble Lord puts forward in favour of his Amendment is that it would deprive newspapers of the large sums of money out of which at the present moment they pay prizes. Newspapers could still have competitions with a view to increasing the sales of their papers, but as the prizes would not be provided out of the entrance fees of the people taking part in the competitions there would not be such large prizes. The Joint Select Committee of 1908 on Lotteries and Indecent Publications

737
recommended that it should be made illegal to charge any form of entrance fee, including the purchase and return of coupons for the prize competitions in newspapers and periodicals. I think, therefore, it will be seen that this is a wider recommendation than that made by Lord Sanderson, but some reference to coupons is clearly required if a wide loophole is not to be left open, since a newspaper can so arrange matters that instead of requiring entrance fees they require or encourage competitors to purchase several copies of the newspaper in question.
The Royal Commission considered the recommendation of the Joint Select Committee, and pointed out that coupons cut from the newspaper are frequently used as entry forms and are a convenience to competitors and promoters. The Commission accordingly proposed that the restriction should take the form of prohibiting the promoters from receiving from competitors money or valuable things other than the return of a single coupon. The Commission found, however, that many newspapers promoted competitions in which prizes amounting to thousands of pounds were offered without entrance fees being required from competitors, and the Commission accordingly proposed that there should be the further restrictions that not more than one hundred pounds should be offered in a single prize and that the newspaper or other promoter should not knowingly accept more than one entry from each competitor. If one looks at the Press, one finds support for the Commission's view that large prizes are offered even although entrance fees are not required from competitors.
The Government found the greatest difficulty in framing any proposal on the lines suggested by the Commission because it is difficult to exclude competitions of real skill which no one desires to prohibit. The Government were therefore driven to the conclusion that the only way to legislate on the subject was by reference to the degree of skill in the competition. If a competition calls for a substantial element of skill it is far removed from those schemes which, because of the large element of chance in them, are akin to lotteries and which present many of the undesirable features of large scale lotteries. It is not believed that the newspapers will experience any diffi-
738
culty in framing competitions which comply with the law. If eases in the Courts do arise out of the interpretation of this provision they will relate to competitions in which a newspaper has been sailing very close to the wind and trying to import into a competition as large an element of chance as the law permits. In those circumstances, I think the noble Lord will see that his Amendment is not very necessary.
LORD SANDERSON: I am afraid I am not convinced by the noble Marquess. I think he has almost shown that it is necessary. He has not shown why, if he cannot adopt my Amendment, he cannot adopt the suggestion of the Royal Commission, which I think would be better still.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI moved to leave out paragraph (b) and insert "(b) any other competition which does not afford scope for the exercise of skill." The noble Lord said: The Amendment in my name is to alter the wording of subsection (b) to "any other competition which does not afford scope for the exercise of skill." I believe those words are clearer and better, and I am not without hopes that the noble Marquess will prefer them to the words originally put in the Bill. In passing, I must say that I think it is a very great pity that this question of newspaper competitions has been interfered with at all. It is really outside the scope of the Bill, with great respect. No one has suggested that anyone has been ruined by newspaper competitions, even when they send in a sixpenny postal order as entrance fee. Indeed, newspaper competitions provide a harmless form of amusement and recreation for a great many people and if there is an element of skill in them I do not see why anyone at all should object. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 15, leave out paragraph (b) and insert ("(b) Any other competition which does not afford scope for the exercise of skill").—(Lord Strabolgi.)
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: The noble Lord who has moved this Amendment has very briefly given the reasons for moving such an Amendment, which the Government consider to be one of considerable importance. I therefore think

739
it necessary to point out to your Lordships that under the existing law any competition which does not afford scope for skill is a lottery, which has been judicially defined as "a distribution of prizes by lot or chance." The Courts have taken the view that if a scheme involves an element of real skill, it is not a lottery within the meaning of the Lottery Acts. The existing position is therefore that under the guise of "competitions" schemes are promoted which are in substance indistinguishable from lotteries, though they are technically so framed and involve just sufficient of the element of skill as to escape the prohibition of lotteries.
The Bill seeks to strengthen the law in regard to these competitions and under paragraph (b) of Clause 24 a competition would not be immune unless it involved a substantial degree of skill. The effect of the Amendment would be to leave unchanged the existing law relating to competitions, except as regards forecasting competitions, which I gather the noble Lord would agree should be prohibited. The Government have no desire to interfere with competitions other than forecasting competitions, involving a substantial degree of skill, which are promoted for amusement and entertainment, but if the noble Lord's Amendment were accepted, and if any competition involving only the slightest degree of skill were to be allowed, I contend that Parliament would be stultifying itself if, on the one hand it prohibited large lotteries, and on the other hand framed the Bill so loosely as to afford scope for the promotion of schemes which I would point out to your Lordships present all the undesirable features of large-scale lotteries. Therefore the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord cannot be accepted.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am very disappointed indeed with the noble Earl's explanation, and still more with his reasons. Here is this present Government faced, they tell us, with the greatest difficulties which ever assailed a nation, and they bring in this Bill to interfere with the perfectly harmless amusements of poor people throughout the country. They leave untouched street betting, rigging of the stock market and other things, while they descend on the people
740
who send in a sixpenny postal order and go in for competitions in which there is some skill. I am sorry that they should waste the time of the House with such pettifogging legislation.
LORD JESSEL: I would like to say that I think the noble Lord opposite is a little inconsequential. We heard a good deal of denunciation of the principle of betting and so forth, and he wanted to increase the number of days of racing and yet went into the Lobby against it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME had on the Paper an Amendment, at the end of subsection (1), to insert:
"In this section the expression 'trade or business' shall not be deemed to include the business of a bookmaker as defined in Part I of this Act or the business of conducting pool betting or pari mutuel betting."
The noble Viscount said: I do not propose to move this Amendment having regard to the following Amendment in the name of the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, but when that is moved I wish to make some observations.
THE EARL OF FEVER SHAM THE EARL OF FEVER SHAM moved to insert at the end of subsection (1):
"Provided that nothing in this subsection with respect to the conducting of competitions in connection with a trade or business shall apply in relation to pari mutuel or pool betting operations carried on by a person whose only trade or business is that of a bookmaker as defined in Part I of this Act."
The noble Earl said: The Committee yesterday accepted a new form of Clause 3, which was proposed by the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill for the purpose of implementing his undertaking that the Bill would be amended so as to allow office pari mutuel betting on football matches and on horse races to be carried on in the form in which they are at present legally conducted. There is nothing in the new form of Clause 3 which would prevent such pari mutuel betting on football matches and on horse races from being carried on by bookmakers in their office; but it is possible that such forms of betting might be prohibited by Clause 24, which prohibits all forecasting competitions conducted "in or through any newspaper or in connection with any trade or business or the sale of any article

741
to the public". Football combination betting would appear to be a forecasting competition within the meaning of paragraph (a) of Clause 24 and is prohibited by that clause if it is conducted "in connection with any trade or business". Football pool competitions are a department or branch of the business of a bookmaker, and it is possible that the Courts would hold that they are conducted "in connection therewith". The object of the present Amendment is to remove all doubts, and it expressly provides that the prohibition against forecasting competitions in Clause 24 shall not apply to pari mutuel or pool betting operations carried on by a person whose only trade or business is that of a bookmaker as defined in Clause 18 of the Bill. Lord Bertie put down an Amendment on the Order Paper with the same object as that of the present Amendment, and it is hoped that your Lordships will accept this Amendment in view of the Amendment which the noble Viscount had intended to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 17, at end, insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Fevershom.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The interests on whose behalf I speak are much obliged to the noble Earl for his Amendment, but a doubt has arisen, and it is this. It is not quite clear that the definition of a bookmaker which appears on page 15 of the Bill will include a person whose only trade is that of conducting pool betting, and for that reason the interests concerned would prefer to have added to the Government Amendment the last few words of my Amendment—namely, "or the business of conducting pool betting or pari mutuel betting." I do not propose to move an Amendment to the noble Earl's Amendment this evening, but I should be grateful to the noble Earl if he would consult his advisers to see whether such words are necessary, or whether a person who only carries on the business of pool betting is considered a bookmaker.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD LUKE LORD LUKE moved to insert the following new subsection:
"(3) Notwithstanding anything contained in this section a corporate body established before the passing of this Act for a charitable purpose may conduct for any such purpose any competition in which
742
success depends partly upon the exercise of skill (other than a competition such as is referred to in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of this section) in respect of which such corporate body shall have submitted to the chief officer of police of the area in which their principal office is situate a copy of the rules and conditions of the competition together with the opinion of counsel that success in the competition depends to a substantial degree upon the exercise of skill and the chief officer of police shall not within fourteen days after such submission have intimated his disagreement with such opinion."
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment I would say that we are very anxious to preserve for hospitals this competition source of revenue which seems to be threatened under the provisions of this clause. The ambiguous word "substantial" is introduced in defining the amount of skill required to keep a competition within the law, and the Amendment provides for a decision as to the legality of competitions run by charitable bodies before a charity concerned has incurred the expense of launching the competition. It is very undesirable that voluntary workers endeavouring to raise funds for a charity should be open to prosecution and penalties when they are acting in accordance with the best legal advice obtainable, and it is equally undesirable that the charity for which they are acting should incur the risk of losing several thousands of pounds which may have been spent on printing and advertising. Unless the Amendment, or some other provision on similar lines, is embodied in the Bill, it will mean that charitable bodies must either face these risks or forego an important source of revenue. The British Charities Association have run competitions for ten years. Last year they distributed £21,000 to the hospitals, which brought their total distributions to over 900 hospitals up to about a quarter of a million pounds. Their competitions have usually been part skill and part chance, but not one of them has, ever been challenged in the Courts.
It would be impossible to run a competition entirely dependent upon skill if you were going to allot prizes, because you cannot define skill down to, say, a one hundred-thousandth part, and that would be necessary when you have over one hundred thousand competitors. There is bound to be a considerable element of chance, but the competitor

743
usually thinks that his skill is a more important factor than it really is, and if it is the moral aspect that the Bill is dealing with, this is important. Prize competitions for charity are both popular and harmless and charities can ill afford at the present moment to be deprived of this source of income. The position of a hospital or other charitable body running a competition after the passing of this Bill, if unamended, would be that they would run the risk of an action to show whether the skill element was substantial or not. If the competition had started, this action might come at a critical time and cause loss to the organisation, whether the skill was proved as substantial or not. As the charity depends upon the public sending in 6d. or Is. entrance money, the mere talk of litigation would spoil the chance of success. May I say with regard to the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson, that the only competitions which his Amendment would stop would be those for charity because obviously there has to be an entrance fee if any money is to come to charity. An aspect of this question that must not be lost sight of is that magistrates' views may differ very much as to what is a "substantial" amount of skill, possibly due to their holding varying views as to the morality even of a competition. Charitable bodies cannot take the risk of a gamble as to whom their case will be tried before, especially when there is no yardstick by which they can gauge the amount of skill required. This Amendment seeks to settle the matter for each competition prior to the charity starting operations. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 22, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Luke.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: As your Lordships are aware, the noble Lord, Lord Luke, is the Chairman of the British Charities Association which, under his authority, has made great contributions to charities and hospitals. The noble Lord apparently accepts the principle in the Bill that competitions conducted in or through a newspaper should not he lawful unless success in them depends to a substantial degree upon the exercise of skill. His Amendment is designed for the purpose of providing machinery which would enable the
744
legality of competitions promoted by charitable bodies to be determined in advance. He proposes that such competitions should be lawful if the promoters have submitted to the chief officer of Police for the area in which the promoters' office is situated a copy of the rules and conditions of the competition, together with the opinion of counsel that success in the competition depends to a substantial degree upon the exercise of skill, and if the chief officer of Police has not within fourteen days intimated his disagreement with such opinion it is presumed that the competition is a legal one.
One can sympathise with the noble Lord in his desire that the British Charities Association should be allowed to promote competitions without any danger of criminal proceedings, but the solution which he proposes—and in fact any solution with a similar object—could not be entertained. The question whether any particular competition is or is not lawful can be determined only by the Courts. On the face of it a competition might be perfectly harmless and legitimate, but the legality of it would depend, at any rate to a certain extent, on the way in which the competition is conducted. The question can only be authoritatively determined after the event. The noble Lord's Amendment would have the effect of removing from the Courts the duty of deciding what was or was not legal, and it thus introduces a new principle into our law which could not be accepted.
Quite apart from the ground of principle, the actual scheme which is proposed by the noble Lord is open to the strongest exception. The responsibility could certainly not be placed on the Police for deciding whether or not the opinion of counsel as to the legality of any particular scheme was or was not correct. Different counsel will express different opinions in regard to the same scheme, and what is the unfortunate chief officer of Police to do when he is presented with counsel's opinion? He can only take the opinion of another counsel, and the possibilities of dispute and friction would be endless. Moreover, chief officers of Police are quite independent and exercise jurisdiction only in their own areas. The question whether a competition was to be allowed would depend upon a de-

745
cision taken by the chief constable in whose area the promoters themselves were situated, although the competition might extend to the whole country through the medium of national newspapers. The Amendment would have a further result. In this country it is open to any person to institute criminal proceedings. The effect of the Amendment would be that if one chief constable decided that a scheme for a competition did not infringe the law, it would not be open to any other person in any part of the country to test the legality of the scheme. I am afraid, therefore, it is quite impossible to accept the Amendment.
LORD LUKE: I am sorry the noble Marquess, though sympathetic, is unable to make some suggestions on these lines. As a mere layman, I suggest it is better to prevent an illegal act than afterwards to detect it and fine the individual who has committed it. But this, together with the next Amendment in my name I will leave over to Report, to see if I can suggest anything that will more meet the wishes of the noble Marquess.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, after Clause 24, to insert the following new clause:
Exemption for State and licensed lotteries.
—(1)Notwithstanding anything in this Part of this Act contained it shall be lawful for the Treasury or for any person or persons firm or body corporate licensed by the Secretary of State as hereinafter in this section provided to promote a lottery for the benefit of any charitable or national object and any lottery so promoted or licensed as aforesaid shall not be deemed unlawful.
(2) For the purposes of this section the Secretary of State shall have power to grant licences authorising the promotion of lotteries for the benefit of any charitable or national object approved by him and may attach to licences granted by him under this section such conditions as he may think fit and particularly but not exclusively provisions for—

(a) prescribing or regulating the manlier in which the lottery shall he held conducted and managed;

(b) limiting the amount which may be applied out of the money received from the sale of tickets in the lottery for paying the expenses incurred in holding the lottery;

(c) prohibiting or limiting the number of tickets in the lottery which may he issued free;

746

(d) prescribing or regulating the number of prizes which may be distributed in the lottery and the amounts of such prizes whether as specified sums or as specified percentages of the money received from the sale of tickets in the lottery or otherwise; and

(e) prescribing the persons by is hom the accounts of the lottery shall be audited."

The noble Duke said: This Amendment is important and fundamental. At the present moment we see millions of pounds being taken from this country by outside sweepstakes. The whole of my activities during the last few months, so far as they concern lotteries, have been directed to urging the Government to stop this money going to Ireland while none was being returned for our own charities or for the benefit of the Exchequer. So weakly have successive Governments dealt with this problem that it has amounted almost to connivance, with the result that an enormous number of people have found that they can purchase Irish sweepstake tickets practically with immunity, while the whole forces of the law are arrayed against them if they sell tickets for a British lottery or sweepstake intended to help the sick and suffering of this country. The Government now rightly propose to take stern measures regarding these outside sweepstakes, but in my opinion, if they do this without giving people an opportunity of purchasing tickets in a large lottery promoted in this country, they will defeat their own object, because they will have millions of people—and I am not over-stating the number—trying to evade the law. The Government may make it difficult for the Irish sweepstakes, but on the other hand, a new element of sport will be added, and it will become a kind of exciting game between the Government on the one side, and the promoters and those who buy tickets on the other, without any idea of shame about it.
It is to a great extent like drug taking. The people of Britain have been allowed to take these lottery drugs to excess, and the Government will find it impossible to stop the habit all at once. For that reason, they should treat the matter almost on medical lines, allowing a ration, possibly gradually decreasing until the habit ceases. But for this they will have to set up an organisation to run a lottery or lotteries on this side under proper control. If they do this, they can then attack those who sell

747
illegal tickets and appeal to the patriotism of the people of Britain with some hope of success. Otherwise the Government have not the slightest chance of stopping the new game of smuggling lottery tickets into England and out again. A big lottery—one might almost call it a State lottery—might be run for various charities or national objects, including, perhaps, the National Debt. The Government may rest assured at all events that people who purchase tickets are seldom much concerned with the ostensible object for which such lotteries are promoted. There are also smaller, but still large, lotteries.
I am the last person to make use of the hospitals as a tag for promoting lotteries, but undoubtedly all is not well with the finances of our hospitals. I have recently allocated large sums of money from what has been described as a lottery to 118 hospitals and similar institutions. All of them, including the great London hospitals, excepting one to which I did not send a donation, have written most grateful letters of thanks, and almost all of them have expressed the hope that I shall be able to inaugurate another scheme on similar lines for their benefit. I could read you any number of extracts, but I will only read one because I believe it is one that will carry some conviction even to those of your Lordships who do not agree in any way with me. It is written from the Treasurer's House, St. Thomas's Hospital, and reads:
"I have been informed that you have been kind enough to send £500 out of your fund to this hospital. You will, of course, receive a formal acknowledgment, but I must write one line to thank you personally for your kindness in the matter. I am afraid that the whole thing must have given you an immense amount of worry and trouble, but I do hope that you are in some degree repaid by the grateful thanks of all those who, like ourselves, have received one of your grants.—Yours ever, Arthur Stanley."
If 118 hospitals have received benefits from me and have expressed grateful thanks I should think that at least double that number of charitable medical institutions have asked for assistance, and, as I have said, practically all of them directly or indirectly asked me to voice their views as I am doing to-day. There is no reason at all why lottery subscriptions should clash with voluntary subscriptions. Lottery subscriptions are,
748
after all, voluntary subscriptions in another form and it is quite simple for them to be allocated, if necessary, to capital expenditure and research, while voluntary subscriptions go to maintenance. It has been suggested that a clause might be inserted allowing hospitals to hold lotteries for themselves, which many are anxious to do. Personally I think it would be better to have a central lottery and give a definite proportion of it for hospital purposes in order to get better control and to prevent overlapping, and that it should be run under proper auspices.
While, of course, I should be only too pleased to withdraw my new clause in favour of a clause proposed by the Government stating that they are prepared to have a State lottery right away, I feel that such a hope is quite vain, and I do not anticipate that I shall have to withdraw this clause. I do anticipate that I shall probably have to divide upon it. The way I have put it means that the Government will have time to consider this matter. Those properly interested will be able, with the Government, to draw up a scheme which can be authorised at any time under the permission given by this clause. It would enable the Government either to run a lottery themselves, which is unlikely, or to authorise definite bodies such as hospitals or a body corporate to promote a lottery. By a body corporate I mean commissioners who would be allowed to carry out the lottery themselves or authorise others to do it according to the powers conferred upon them. I think that might be the best plan. It would get the Government out of a difficulty and would to a certain extent satisfy the country.
Such a lottery would be entirely different from the smaller lotteries permitted by this Bill. It seems to me to be a happy and reasonable compromise upon which I hope the Government will agree. I think that if this were granted it would help the passing of the Bill, not only in your Lordships' House but also in another place, and would tend to prevent other efforts to do what many people want but at present are not allowed to do. If the Government are prepared to accept my general idea, I shall be prepared to withdraw my new clause in favour of a new clause of their own, or to accept such verbal alterations as they may think

749
necessary after further study. I therefore hope that the Government will not put me to the necessity of dividing on this clause; but if some clause of this sort is not accepted I confess that I shall find some difficulty in supporting the Bill as a whole. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 24 insert the said new clause.—(The Duke of Atholl.)
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: I should like to say one very brief word in support of the Amendment moved by the noble Duke. I have already spoken twice in your Lordships' House on this subject, and therefore it is not my intention to say anything more to-night beyond the fact that I also am convinced that a national lottery in this country, for national objects, must one day come, as in France, Italy, Spain, and other countries. I am very glad to see that an Amendment similar to this is to be moved in another place. I would like warmly to support the Amendment of the noble Duke, and to say that I hope the Government will consider this point most carefully and see whether they can see their way, at any rate before the Bill passes into law, to do something on these lines, either in this House or in another place.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: I hope very much that the Government will not accept this Amendment. Only last year a very important Royal Commission reported upon this particular matter. That Commission consisted of important men, none of them representative of anti-gambling societies and so on. They entered into the matter with their minds, on the whole, in favour of large public lotteries, but after hearing all the evidence and after considering the matter most carefully they came to the conclusion that these large public lotteries were undesirable. They said that the evidence showed that there was no large public demand for these lotteries at the present time, and that those who advocated such lotteries had not taken into consideration the serious objections against them and the disadvantages which attended them. Among the disadvantages which attend lotteries is the fact that they can be successful only if they call into existence a large number of agents, who make their profits through
750
the sale of tickets. The Commission state:
"We should not be prepared to recommend the setting up in this country of a system by which people can make large incomes by persuading others to buy sweepstake tickets from them."
If these lotteries are to be successful it would be quite inevitable that such a system would be set up. There is no way of avoiding it.
Again, the noble Duke has told us that he is anxious that this lottery should be in the interests of the hospitals. The way in which previously in the House the two noble Dukes have urged these great lotteries in support of hospitals is very striking, but I think it is undoubtedly true that the majority of the hospitals are not asking for these lotteries. I think it is true to go further and say that the majority of them believe that they would lose, and lose heavily, if such lotteries were started in their support. We have only to look at the Irish hospitals sweepstakes to get support for that view. The Irish hospitals are losing in ordinary subscriptions through these great public lotteries, and the actual statistics published show that it is only the smaller proportion of receipts which reach the hospitals. The majority of the receipts go into the private pockets of those who promote these lotteries. I hope therefore that the Government will not accept this Amendment.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: May I put to the right reverend Prelate one point? I quite agree as to the undesirable features of the large lotteries that are run now, but I meant that tickets could be sold over the post office counter. With regard to the hospitals, over 200 hospitals and institutions in this country asked me for the money before I sent it.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: That I quite understand, but it is quite another matter for the hospitals to say that they approve of such lotteries becoming a regular method by which they are to receive help.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: They ask for it to go on.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: May I venture to say a word and to express the hope that your Lordships will not accept this Amendment, which I think would be very serious in its effect, with its possi-

751
bility of jeopardising the voluntary contributions now made to hospitals. On the Second Reading of this Bill I ventured to give your Lordships the amount now given to the hospitals by the system of voluntary gifts. The noble Duke who moved this Amendment told us that the hospitals had never failed to accept his gifts. I did not think for a moment that it was the duty of any hospital to refuse those gifts. It is only natural that they should accept them with gratitude to the noble donor. But that does not say at all, as the right reverend Prelate has pointed out, that they approve of the system of lotteries in any way.
I showed your Lordships on the Second Reading that the voluntary hospitals of London are now in a better position than they have been in for some time, in spite of the tremendously bad period through which we have gone. The number of hospitals which now have deficits is fewer than before; the amounts of the deficits are less than they have been in the last few years. The number of the surpluses is greater and the amount of the surpluses is greater. The fact that they received a gift with gratitude is natural enough. They can always spend more money. We all know that. Every hospital can put forward new schemes and new departments and the money can be expended. But the extraordinary thing is that in the last few years the voluntary system has kept itself up well and is in better condition now than it was before. If lotteries are permitted the effect may be to reduce the amount now given by voluntary contributions. That has been shown by the right reverend Prelate to have been the effect, in Ireland, of taking up a new system which is rather alien to our own views in this country and also alien to the intentions of the Bill as brought in by the Government. I therefore venture to hope that your Lordships will not accept this Amendment.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: May I say one word to point out to the opponents of this Amendment that there is nothing in this which compels anybody, not even the Government, to conduct a lottery of any sort or kind? It is purely permissive in its action and, even if that is taken advantage of, the Government, and the Government alone, according to the Amendment, can impose such regulations
752
on any lottery as will ensure that it is conducted in accordance with the views of people who have expressed fears as to the troubles arising from lotteries. It does not, as I say, compel anybody to conduct a lottery. It merely gives permission to conduct a lottery if thought fit, and it seems to me that it is a very desirable part of a Bill, which deals with betting and gambling, that that particular power should be placed definitely in the hands of the Government instead of its being left to perhaps a subsequent Bill and a subsequent Government, who will place it in the hands of anybody who cares to conduct a lottery.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment which the noble Duke has proposed in the form of inserting a new clause is a very important Amendment, but I am hoping that your Lordships will not accept the Amendment and will reject it if the noble Duke goes to a Division. The noble Duke has mentioned the Irish sweepstakes. I can assure him that I personally regret that so much money has gone out of this country to Ireland from those who are encouraging the Irish sweepstake; but I am hopeful that, under the provisions which are included in this Bill, a great deal of the steps which have been taken to stop that Irish sweepstake will be unnecessary in the future.
The noble Duke, and also the Duke of Sutherland, have spoken about charities, and I hardly think there is any necessity for me to supplement what has been said by the right reverend Prelate. I happen to be chairman of two hospitals in London, and I have strenuously opposed any organised system of lotteries for the purpose of supplementing hospital finance. I am inclined to think that I have perhaps more experience of the contributions which come to hospitals than either of the noble Dukes, who apparently believe that the way to bolster up their finance is to leave them dependent upon lotteries. I think one of the matters on which we have reason to be proud in this country is the great fountain of charity that comes from all sections of the community, and it would surprise your Lordships if I could give you the figures subscribed by all sections of the community to hospitals in this country. The contributions which are received are not large contributions, such as may come

753
from lotteries, but are small contributions of sixpences, shillings and even pennies, and sometimes subscriptions in kind, because the contributor cannot afford more. I think your Lordships will realise that if any system of lotteries were established in this country to which charitable organisations would have to look for their revenue, all that fountain of charity of which we have so much reason to be proud would be dried up. I think from what we have heard that this has already happened in Ireland, and that those charitable contributions which were formerly forthcoming are now non-existent.
The Duke of Sutherland surprised me by the remarks he made to urge us to adopt lotteries, because he said they have been adopted in other countries, and I think he mentioned Spain, Italy and France. I wonder whether your Lordships would wish to change the financial condition of this country for that of any other country, or of some of those which the noble Duke mentioned. I hardly think we should enjoy the position which we occupy at the present moment if we adopted lotteries for the purpose of making our position more secure than it is at present. The main principle on which Part II of the Bill is based is that large lotteries are undesirable and should not be allowed in this country. I think your Lordships will remember that the House gave the Bill an unopposed Second Reading, and I think I am entitled to say that your Lordships endorsed that principle. The Government are in agreement with the conclusion of the Royal Commission that large scale lotteries, whether promoted by the State for the direct benefit of the Exchequer, or by a statutory board for charitable objects, or by individual charities under a system of permits, are socially undesirable.
As regards State lotteries, history shows that lotteries take their place among the expedients which are resorted to by Governments when other and more reputable methods of finance have failed, and it is significant that in this country lotteries were abandoned when more assured sources of income became available to the State. Lotteries appeal with special force to those in straitened circumstances, and to those whose economic position is insecure, since they hope to
754
gain financial stability by winning a prize. Lottery tickets are purchased by such individuals with money which for the sake of their well-being should have been spent otherwise. As has already been said in this debate, the Royal Commission examined at length schemes for the promotion of lotteries for charitable or national objects under licence and reached the conclusion that such schemes were both undesirable and open to the gravest practical objections. All these social objections to large lotteries apply and in addition there are most serious practical difficulties, which are analysed by the Royal Commission. I feel that in all the circumstances to go back to a system which has been rejected by every Royal Commission which history records would be a retrograde step.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 25:
Power to issue search warrant.
25. Any justice of the peace, if satisfied by information on oath that there is reasonable ground to suspect that an offence under this Part of this Act in connection with a lottery or proposed lottery has been, or is being, committed on any premises, may grant a warrant under his band authorising any constable named in the warrant, at any time or times within one month from the date thereof, to enter, if necessary by force, the premises named in the warrant and every part thereof, and to search for and seize and remove any documents or money found therein which he has reasonable ground to suppose are on those premises for any purpose which constitutes an infringement of any provision of this Part of this Act relating to lotteries.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, after "oath," to insert "by members of the Police force." The noble Duke said: The object of this Amendment is to prevent any justice of the peace who may be a crank or who may have conscientious scruples from exercising his powers without taking into consideration both sides of the question. I think it is only right that the information should come from the Police, and not from a public informer, for although some of us may sometimes have differences with individual members of the Police I think most of us appreciate the high standard of morality which prevails in the force.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 24, after ("oath") insert the said words.—(The Duke of Atholl.)
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: The Amendment, I understand, would provide

755
that a search warrant in respect of a lottery offence could only be granted by a justice of the peace after information on oath by members of the Police force. The Bill provides that a search warrant issued under Clause 25 can only be executed by a constable, but there is no ground whatever for providing that the information on which the justice of the peace satisfies himself that there is reasonable ground to suspect that an offence is being committed on premises must be provided by constables. The Director of Public Prosecutions in England or the Procurator Fiscal in Scotland might wish to lay the information, or it might often happen that the essential information on which a magistrate would grant a search warrant was in the possession of a private individual, either acting as a witness for the Police or as a private prosecutor. Therefore His Majesty's Government hold that the Amendment suggested by the noble Duke, that a search warrant in respect of a lottery offence should only be granted by a justice of the peace, is on these grounds considered unacceptable.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD BAYFORD LORD BAYFORD moved to leave out Clause 25. The noble Lord said: I want to ask the noble Lord first of all whether the Police have not got this power already.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Yes.
LORD BAYFORD: They have? Then, what is the good of the clause? If the Police already have this power, why put it in? The other question I want to ask is whether it will apply to clubs, because from what the noble Marquess told us just now I gathered that lotteries held in Clubs are lawful, and so the question in that case would not arise. I am moving the Amendment on behalf of the Conservative Clubs, and if it does not apply to them at all I am perfectly satisfied, but I desire to get an explanation on both these points, so I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out clause 25.—(Lord Bayford.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Clause 25 proposes to empower a justice of the peace, if satisfied by information on oath that there is reasonable ground
756
to suspect that an unlawful lottery is being conducted on any premises, to issue a search warrant authorising the police to enter the premises by force and to search for and seize and remove documents and money found therein which the Police have reasonable ground to suppose are on the premises for any purpose constituting an infringement of the law. Noble Lords who criticise this clause overlook the fact that it is in substitution of even more drastic provisions in the existing law. It is a modification of present laws which are being repealed by the Second Schedule of the Bill. Thus the Gaming Act of 1802 has a provision in Clause 4, the effect of which is that on complaint or information upon oath any justice by special warrant may authorise any person by day (or by night in the presence of a constable) to break open and enter any house or place and arrest all persons discovered therein, who shall have knowingly aided or assisted, or been in any way concerned with any such offender against law and public peace. Such persons are deemed to be rogues and vagabonds and are punishable accordingly, the punishment being fine or imprisonment or both. Persons hindering or resisting the Police may be fined, imprisoned, and whipped. Again Section 59 of the Lotteries Act, 1823, contains a provision in almost identical terms.
It will therefore be seen that the provisions of the existing law are far more drastic than the provisions in Clause 25 of the Bill. Under the existing law where a magistrate issues a warrant in respect of any premises, offenders on those premises must be arrested, whereas Clause 25 contains no such provision. In effecting an arrest the Police are empowered under the Common Law to search the premises on which the arrest is effected and to seize any documents or articles on those premises which are or may be material as evidence of the offence in respect of which the offender is arrested. All that Clause 25 does is to empower a magistrate to issue a warrant for the seizing of documents or materials issued in connection with an unlawful lottery without the necessity of arresting the offender. I think that I have shown your Lordships that the provisions which are embodied in Clause 25 are much less

757
onerous and drastic than the provisions which exist in the law at the present time.
LORD STRABOLGI: It may be that under the Gaming Act of 1853 and other early Victorian measures these powers exist, but none the less they are very dangerous powers. We are living in Very curious times. The Government has been seeking by devious means to equip itself with powers for searching the premises of private persons. The noble Lord, Lord Bayford, spoke of the workingmen's clubs. They are very jealous of invasion by the Police and quite rightly too. They declare that the Police do not often raid the Reform Club or the Carlton Club in London; and why should they raid their clubs? But there is another reason. This is a private person's house and my noble friends and myself object very much to the present trend of the Government's policy in that direction. We think it is the British Conservative form of Fascism to enable anyone's house to be broken into, in the words of the clause, "by force" and any money or documents seized on the permission of one magistrate in any part of the country, one policeman or one person who is not a police constable. As the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, elicited from the Government, some informer goes to a magistrate, not quite up to date in his ideas, a reactionary, and then they may search anyone's premises, break open any cupboards, cabinets, safes or anything else, search their persons, and no doubt discover what they are looking for
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I did not make myself clear. I was trying to answer my noble friend and telling him that the provisions of Clause 25 were less drastic than the present law.
LORD STRABOLGI: The noble Marquess has told us he has those
powers and is re-enacting them in Clause 25.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Lord misunderstands. They are not re-enacted. The powers in Clause 25 are much less drastic than the powers previously existing.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am sorry I have not explained myself quite clearly. Let me put it briefly and clearly. We want to delete Clause 25 altogether and also delete from the Schedule this power of search and substitute something a great deal less drastic. We object very much to one magistrate having this power, whether it is existing legislation or new legislation. That is what I wish to convey to the noble Marquess. We feel strongly indeed about this matter and for the reasons I have endeavoured to explain we think that the present system should be seriously curtailed. My own views are that no search warrant should be issued without the Director of Public Prosecutions being informed. I think the power is far too wide at present as Governments tend to use the power. What has happened in many countries in Europe was unheard of in this country a few years ago. We were extremely jealous and we still are of the use of the extreme powers by the Police or by the Executive against the liberties of the subject. For that reason we are very sorry that this Bill, which in other ways is a very curious Bill, does contain this extremely objectionable provision. If my noble friends support me I shall certainly divide against the clause.
LORD BAYFORD: The noble Lord opposite has convinced me that this clause is necessary.
On Question, Whether Clause 25 shall, stand part of the Bill?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 41; Not-Contents, 5.

CONTENTS.

Sutherland, D.

Onslow, E.

Hereford, V.

Plymouth, E.

Mersey, V.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Radnor, E.

Strange, E. (D. Atholl.)

Winchester, L. Bp.

De La Warr, E.

Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

Effingham, E.

Addington, L.

Feversham, E.

Astor, V.

Askwith, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Bayford, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Chelmsford, V.

Denman, L.

Midlothian, E. (E. Rosebery.)

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Elton, L.

Munster, E.

Halifax, V.

Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

Hampton, L.

O'Hagan, L.

Somerleyton, L.

Heneage, L.

Polwarth, L.

Strathcon and Mount Royal, L.

Jessel, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Lamington, L.

Rhayader, L.

Templemore, L. [Teller.]

Luke, L.

Rochester, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.) [Teller.]

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Sanderson, L.

Redesdale, L.

Strabolgi, L. [Teller.]

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative and Clause 25 agreed to accordingly.
Clauses 26 and 27 agreed to.
Clause 28:
Penalties for offences under this Act and forfeitures.
(3) The court before which a person is proved to have committed any offence under Part II of this Act in relation to a lottery or proposed lottery shall order to be forfeited any coins and bank notes in the hands of the police whidh are shown to the satisfaction of the court to represent the price of tickets or chances, or prize money, or prizes in the lottery, and shall order to be destroyed all documents (other than bank notes) in the hands of the police which are shown to the satisfaction of the court to relate to the promotion or conduct of the Lottery.
LORD BAYFORD LORD BAYFORD moved to leave out subsection (3). The noble Lord said; The point I want to raise on this Amendment is that in the case of a club it surely seems rather a strong measure to raid a club and to confiscate any moneys found there when they may belong to perfectly innocent members of the club. If you convict certain organisers in the club of having got up a lottery, there may be a case for confiscating any money that comes to them, but to confiscate the money of an innocent subscriber to the lottery does seem to me rather a strong measure to take. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 26, leave out subsection (3).—(Lord Bayford.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Subsection (3) of Clause 28, which this Amendment proposes to delete, provides that a Court before which a person is convicted of an offence against the law relating to lotteries shall confiscate any money in the hands of the Police which is shown to the satisfaction of the Court to represent subscriptions to an unlawful lottery. A provision on those lines is necessary for the purpose of disposing of material seized by the Police in
760
executing a search warrant issued in pursuance of Clause 25 of the Bill. Unless there were power to confiscate such material, it would be necessary for the Police either to deliver it to the promoter or to endeavour to return the money in their possession to each individual subscriber. When a lottery promoter has been convicted of an offence and the lottery, having been declared illegal, is stopped, it is clearly undesirable that the proceeds of the lottery should be returned to the promoter, who would thus reap considerable financial benefit from his defiance of the law. On the other hand, there are obviously the strongest objections to throwing on the Police the responsibility for returning money seized to individual subscribers.
The necessity for a power to confiscate is clearly demonstrated by a recent experience. In the autumn of 1931 a Christmas draw was organised in Swansea purporting to be for the benefit of the Glamorgan County Cricket Club. For this purpose a large number of tickets headed "Glamorgan County Development Club" were issued and sold at a price of 6d. each to such of the general public as were willing to purchase them and a large sum of money was received by the promoters from the sale of these tickets. The lottery came to the knowledge of the Police who, on December 9, prosecuted the promoter at the Swansea Police Court for offences against the Gaming Act, 1802, and the Lotteries Act, 1823. The promoter pleaded guilty to the charge under the Gaming Act and was fined £25 and after an adjournment he was bound over on the Lotteries Act charge in the sum of £250, on condition that all moneys at the bank or in cash received in respect of the lottery should be paid by him into an account in a bank to abide any order made by the Home Secretary as to its disposal. In pursuance of this order of the Court, a sum was handed over amounting to approximately £6,000. The Home Secre-

761
tary has declined to undertake any responsibility for the distribution of the fund since he had no power to make any order for the purpose, and since 1931 there has been a series of actions for the purpose of determining the disposal of this money. I think under these circurnstances the noble Lord will see that it would be very dlifficult to accept his Amendment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE EARL OF RADNOR THE EARL OF RADNOR moved, in subsection (3) to leave out the first "shall" and insert "may." The noble Earl said: On behalf of the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, may I move this Amendment, which I think is a very harmless one? It is to insert the word "may" instead of "shall." I quite agree with the noble Marquess as to the necessity for the power to confiscate the money, but surely the Court concerned might at least have a discretion. There may be cases of a technical offence, where a prosecution is necessarily undertaken, where the Court might have a discretion not to confiscate the money. There might be a small village lottery in which, quite unwittingly, an offence is committed. Perhaps if the noble Marquess would consider it on those lines and give the Court a power to use a discretion it would not be asking a great deal.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 28, leave out ("shall") and insert ("may").—(The Earl of Radnor.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: This Amendment would constitute a discretionary power of forfeiture for the mandatory power which is proposed in the Bill. I ventured just now to point out when I spoke on the last Amendment that it was clearly necessary that the law should be amended to provide a power of confiscation. The only question at issue, therefore, which arises on this Amendment is as to whether that power should be discretionary or whether it should be mandatory. I would put it to your Lordships in this way. If Parliament is really in earnest in the desire to prohibit large-scale lotteries, it does seem to be essential that the promoters of illegal lotteries or the agents of lotteries promoted abroad should be made fully aware that in no circumstances would they be allowed to reap the benefit of their illegal activities.
762
There is a further important consideration, that to give Courts a discretionary power in this matter of forfeiture would place them in a very invidious position. It would appear that in equity, if money is to be confiscated in respect of any illegal lottery, it should be confiscated in all alike. But apart from the considerations of equity, what is the criterion which should determine the Court's decision, and in what circumstances should the money he returned to a lottery promoter or his agent who has been convicted of promoting an illegal lottery which, as a consequence of his conviction, must necessarily be abandoned? I think the noble Earl, on reflection, will see the very difficult position in which the Courts would be placed, and as the suggestion of the Bill is that it is mandatory and as the object of the Bill is to frustrate those promoters of illegal lotteries who desire to promote those lotteries for their own gain, I think the noble Earl will see that putting the mandatory power in this Bill is infinitely better than leaving it to the discretionary power which the Amendment proposes.
LORD BAYFORD: May I ask if the power contained in this clause is the existing law, or is an alteration of the law?
THE EARL OF RADNOR: It is new
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule:
FIRST SCHEDULE.
Provisions regulating the establishment and operation of totalisators on dog racecourses.
1. A totalisator set up under this Act on a dog racecourse shall be a mechanically or electrically operated apparatus complying with such conditions as a Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe.
2. The person, whether the occupier of the track or a person authorised in writing by the occupier, by whom the totalisator is operated (in this Schedule referred to as "the operator") shall distribute or cause to be distributed the whole of the moneys staked on any race or races by means of the totalisator among the persons winning bets made by means of the totalisator on that race or those races, after deducting or causing to be deducted such percentage, not exceeding three per cent., as he may from time to time determine.
Provided that—

(a) where the amount payable to a person winning a bet includes a fraction of a penny, that fraction of a penny may be retained by the operator; and

(b) the terms on which the operator invites persons to bet by means of the totalisator may include a condition entitling the operator to retain any sum payable to a person winning a bet, unless the money won on the bet is claimed within a specified time.

4. The accountant and his technical adviser and their respective servants authorised in that behalf in writing may, at all reasonable times, enter the premises in which the totalisator is set up, and examine any part of the mechanism and test and watch the working thereof, and may require the operator and any servant of his to give to them all such information, and to produce to them all such accounts, books and other documents, as they deem necessary.
8. Without prejudice to his duties under the preceding paragraphs, the accountant shall, as soon as may be after the close of each calendar year, audit the accounts of the operator for the year and, if such be the fact, shall certify thereon that satisfactory statements of account have been submitted to him monthly in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 5 of this Schedule and have been examined by him, and that to the best of his information and belief, formed after consultation with his technical adviser, the accounts for the year are complete and accurate and the totalisator complies with the prescribed conditions and has throughout the year been maintained in proper working order and properly operated in accordance with the provisions of this Schedule; and the operator shall forthwith cause the accounts and certificate to be printed and shall transmit two copies thereof to the licensing authority, who shall cause one of those copies to be deposited at their offices for inspection at any time during office hours by any member of the public free of charge.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND moved to leave out paragraph 1. The noble Duke said: The first paragraph of this Schedule requires that
"A totalisator set up under this Act on a dog racecourse shall be a mechanically or electrically operated apparatus complying with such conditions as a Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe."
All that greyhound racing asks is that it should have the same freedom in the choice of its equipment as horse racing already has. In point of fact the types of totalisator prescribed by the Schedule are those which have been scrapped on nearly all horse racecourses because of their expense of operation. A manage-
764
ment should be entitled to choose for itself the type of equipment which most suits its own circumstances, and it should not be debarred from taking advantage of improvements in the design and manufacture of such equipment. It is especially important that managements should have this freedom if the totalisator percentage is to be at a low figure. It is only where there is a very large public that an all-electric totalisator is commercially possible; moreover, even at the biggest tracks, the operation of double-event betting has been universally effected through hand-operated systems. If the supervision of a chartered accountant is considered by the Government to be sufficient in the case of a mechanical totalisator, it should be equally so in the case of a hand-operated pool.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 5, leave out paragraph 1.—(The Duke of Sutherland.)
THE EARL OF ROSEBERI: The noble Duke seems to think, or has shown, that there is differentiation in this Bill between dog racing and horse racing. I would like to point out to your Lordships that the cases are on an entirely different footing. I speak with some knowledge of this subject because I am one of those who represent the Jockey Club on the Betting Control Board, and we have to provide for sometimes forty horses in a race. On no course except one is there more than sixteen days racing in the year, and we find the electric "tote" economically unsound. It has the advantage of being much surer and affords much less chance of fraud, because the human element is eliminated. I can assure the noble Duke that if we had a racecourse on which we were allowed to race 104 days in the year, with not more than six horses, we would be glad to use the electric "tote" and would look upon it as a veritable gold mine.
THE EARL OF EFFINGFIAM: I have an Amendment on the same lines as that of the noble Duke, and for this reason I support him very strongly. I do not know whether the Government is aware of the fact or not, that their opposition to pari mutuel betting on the course by any other means than by the use of mechanical or electrical apparatus will have the effect of disqualifying the use of the hand-operated machine, not only

765
for doubles and trebles events, but for ordinary win pools betting. The argument has been advanced by the Government's spokesmen that the First Schedule was drawn up in order to safeguard the public from the possibility of the manipulation of the figures betted by the public during the progress of the betting. The Government must be aware, however, that it is possible to operate pari mutuel betting by hand machines in quite as efficient a fashion as by mechanical or electrical means. This could be done by chartered accountants collecting the units invested by the public from the betting tickets used as betting progresses, and circulating these units to the main blackboard by telephone.
Do the Government realise, in spite of their reiterated statements that they do not wish to exterminate the sport, that if the hand-operatod machine be not permitted it will have the effect of closing down (out of 225 tracks engaged in the sport) approximately 75 per cent of these venues? It is well known that only the larger tracks with large capital have installed electrical machines, which cannot be bought for a less sum than £7,000 or £8,000. How in view of this large cost would the smaller tracks instal this costly apparatus? And since the Government have made the point that the public who attend these meetings should have alternative forms of betting, can they still insist on no other apparatus being used than either mechanical or electrical apparatus?
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: I should like to support the Amendment. I was not impressed with the arguments used by the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, because he forgot to say that in point-to-point races they do not have a totalisator in the ordinary sense at all. They have a totalisator worked by a girl in a tent, but they do not even put on the blackboard the approximate odds that you are going to get. It is grossly unfair to allow horse racing tracks to use any kind of totalisator, and not to allow the same facilities to greyhound racing tracks. I have an Amendment on this, and it seems to me that we are asking for a very reasonable thing. We are asking, for instance, that a chartered accountant should be present and control everything, and that the units should be written up
766
so that everybody can see before the beginning of each race.
LORD ASKWITH: I also support this Amendment. I put it on two grounds. I think it is an unfair thing that invention should be tied down in regard to this new instrument to a particular line in this way. A celebrated person connected with art said the other day that he strongly objected to the regimentation of art. I strongly object to the regimentation of invention, and the invention may be produced that would make these electrically and mechanically controlled machines available for this purpose, but at the present time they are not available at all. When we were on Clause 3 the noble Marquess produced a new clause in which he purported to allow pari mutuel betting on greyhound courses under certain restrictions. It was to be allowed only on a licensed track, "being a dog racecourse in accordance with the provisions of this Act which relate to totalisators and dog racecourses." That was governed by this Schedule. The Schedule deals with mechanically and electrically controlled apparatus and confines the machines that you may use to those particular kinds of machines as approved by the Home Secretary. I find that this kind of machine is not used and has been stopped as very difficult to employ and as causing very great expense.
But on one class of betting that is very usual, and which there is no reason should not be employed if betting is allowed at all—double-event betting—the hand machine is absolutely the only one that is used. It is said—and I called for a report from experts on the matter—that double-event betting is universally done by hand machines; and although a machine has been invented by one manufacturer none has, in fact, ever been used. That is the expert opinion. The expense of operating such a machine is prohibitive. It has to sell no fewer than thirty-six combinations, and it has to have an enormous indicator showing the figures of betting on its thirty-six combinations, which would constitute a blot on the landscape. It would have to be an entirely separate machine from the ordinary win-and-place pools, and it would be used for only one bet a night. Further it would cost about £30,000.

767
Really, to pretend to give pari mutuel betting and then to insist that it should be confined to certain machines which are not capable of doing the work properly, that they should be the only machines that can be used, that they should be the only kind of invention of which note should be taken, and that they should be subject to the control of the Government who would have to pay experts to decide which are the best machines—to do that seems to me to be pretending to give a gift and placing round it such restrictions that the gift is scarcely worth having at all.
The Amendments of the noble Duke and the noble Lord seem to be very fair suggestions on this matter, and, even if the wording is not correct, at any rate the matter should be taken into consideration and some definite proposition put forward which would meet the facts of the case, the practical knowledge that exists, and the control that is necessary. If a chartered accountant can control mechanical machines and look after their interests, with an expert mechanician to assist him, surely he can equally easily look after and control the hand machines which are the usual method by which pari mutuel betting is carried on. The draftsman of the Bill seems to have thought that the best way of doing it is by a machine. A knowledge of the practical working of the actual system seems to be quite beyond the draftsman of the Bill. I venture to support the noble Duke and hope he will divide on his Amendment.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I am sure your Lordships will have been pleased to hear the maiden speech delivered by the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery. I feel I may, on behalf of your Lordships, express the hope that we shall often hear his contributions in your Lordships' House. Those of us who are of the older generation have a distinct and clear recollection of his illustrious predecessor, and the best we can hope is that the noble Earl may follow that illustrious example.
The Bill proposes in paragraph 1 of the First Schedule that a totalisator set up by the occupier of a licensed dog track shall be a "mechanically or electrically operated apparatus complying with such conditions as the Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe." But I would
768
like to say that there is no compulsion to use the totalisator at all. It is in the discretion of dog racecourses to use totalisators or not use them. But if they do make up their minds to use them they must comply with such conditions as the Secretary of State has by regulation prescribed. I think the noble Earl to whom I have just ventured to refer gave the proper answer to this Amendment and I do not feel that there is any necessity for me to go more deeply into the question than the noble Earl did in his speech. We understand that it is objected to this proposal that it is unfair to require the dog totalisator to be mechanically operated at a time when the Racecourse Betting Control Board has practically discontinued the use of mechanical totalisators on horse racecourses. The answer to this criticism is twofold. In the first place, the totalisator on horse racecourses is not conducted for private profit and is operated and supervised by a responsible statutory board. The reasons why the Government cannot agree to the establishment of a similar board in respect of the totalisator on dog tracks have already been explained on several occasions and we would have had a debate on that subject if the noble Duke had moved his Amendment.
In the second place the conditions on horse racecourses are not comparable with those on dog racecourses. The mechanical totalisator on horse racecourses has proved not to be an economic proposition because on the great majority of horse racecourses racing only takes place on a few days in the year, the average number of racing days being about seven. Experience has shown that though the mechanical totalisator is much to be preferred it is not economic to maintain costly and elaborate mechanical apparatus which can be used so rarely on each course, and the Board have been reluctantly compelled to abandon the use of the electrical totalisators on racecourses other than those used more frequently or those which are specially lucrative. The position is quite different in the case of greyhound racing, since on each licensed track the totalisator will be allowed to be used on 104 days each year. I think this really answers the Amendment which the noble Duke has put forward and I hope your Lordships will not accept it.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: There is one point I think the noble Marquess did not take into consideration and that was that on horse-lacing courses 12 per cent. is allowed on the "tote" while on these courses only 3 per cent. is at present provided. That would make a good deal of difference to the expense of operating the totalisator.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: There is one other point to which I would draw the noble Marquess's attention. He says it is not compulsory on these tracks to have totalisators. That is quite true, but to use a familiar phrase, if to-day is a betting day they will have betting of some sort on these tracks, and if they cannot have a totalisator because it is far too expensive you will give the betting into the hands of the bookmakers rather than the totalisator. It seems to me the totalisator is rather better than a bookmaker, or less worse.
THE EARL OF EFFINGHAM: How does the noble Marquess suggest that the smaller greyhound courses can possibly spend £7,000 or £8,000 on a dog "tote" and with an allowance of 3 per cent. deduction make any sort of a living and keep their courses going as they should be kept, employ chartered accountants and so on?
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I have been trying to explain to noble Lords that there is no compulsion to pay this £7,000. There is no necessity for the smaller courses to have a totalisator. I hardly think the management of any course would run a totalisator if they found it was a burden on their finances.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL THE EARL OF KINNOULL moved to add to paragraph 1:
"Amongst such regulations shall be one directing that the operator shall cause to be shown during the progress of the betting all units betted, both by means of mechanically or electrically operated apparatus, or otherwise, and final pools shall he exhibited prior to the commencement of the race by the operator, his servant, agent or assistant."
The noble Earl said: Before I move this Amendment I should like to say, in view of the fact that in the report in The Times of yesterday's debate there is a cross heading "A Labour Alternative," that the Amendments I have moved have
770
not been moved on behalf of the Labour Party but entirely on my own behalf. A few minutes ago I more or less stated the object of this Amendment. There are many types of totalisators—the clockfaced type, the pillar type and so on—and I feel it is in the interests of the public that they should know the number of units on each dog. It is for that purpose that I move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 8, at end insert the said words,—(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: The whole object of this provision is to avoid the necessity of prescribing details in the Statute. I can assure the noble Earl that the Government will give careful consideration to the matter and at some future date regulations will be framed which will cover the point raised by the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: May I take it then that the Government will consider between now and Report whether they can do anything about this Amendment?
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I think the undertaking I have given is sufficient. Your Lordships will agree that detailed rules prescribing the method by which these operators should work are unnecessary in the Statute, but the substance of the Amendment will be included after careful consideration in any rules that are made under the sehedule.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, Withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND moved, in paragraph 2, to leave out "three" and insert "seven and one-half." The noble Duke said: By paragraph 2 of the First Schedule greyhound totalisators are to be limited to a three per cent. deduction. No totalisator as laid down in the Bill at any racecourse in the country can be operated on this basis, and the restriction proposed is so severe as to amount to a continued refusal of "tote" facilities to the greyhound racing public. If there is an intention to grant the "tote" to them then it must be given under conditions that at least make its operation reasonably possible. The percentage of expenditure in the operation of the totalisator to

771
the total pools varies according to the size of these pools. I would like to read to your Lordships actual figures for the operation of the totalisator at a number of licensed racecourses in different parts of the country. They speak for themselves. In London, at Wembley, the capital cost of installation was £21,574; total pools for the year, £470,894; revenue (10 per cent. of pool plus breakages), £52,235; operating and other costs, £21,810; percentage of expenditure to total pools, 4.63 per cent. In the Midlands, at Perry Barr, Birmingham, the capital cost of installation was £8,800; total pools for the year, £90,000; revenue (10 per cent. of pools plus breakages) £10,700; operating and other costs, £6,000, percentage of expenditure to total pools, 7.1 per cent.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Perhaps the noble Duke would like me to interrupt him at this stage, because I have a suggestion to make after the noble Duke has finished his remarks, which I have no doubt your Lordships would like to hear. It may guide his remarks if I tell him that there is certainly no desire on the part of the Government to be unreasonable in this matter. We are quite unable to accept the proposal that the deduction should be increased to 7½ per cent., but I can assure your Lordships that if a case is made out for a slight increase in the pools, the Government will certainly consider the matter further at a later stage.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: I wish to thank the noble Marquess very much. That will be a very great help, but I think it would perhaps be right that I should continue to some extent with these figures, to show what the position is at the present moment, and then they will be on record. For instance, take the figures of the Welsh White City at Cardiff: capital cost of installation, £12,448; total pools for the year, £83,449; revenue (10 per cent. of pools plus breakages), £9,829; operating and other costs, £7,567; percentage of expenditure to total pools, 9.07 per cent. This expenditure does not include any charge for rent, rates, or management expenses. Depreciation and amortisation has been calculated on the basis of 15 per cent. On cost of installation. Interest on capital has been calculated on the basis of 5 per cent.
772
In the case of all these racecourses a considerable proportion of the revenue was derived from hand-operated pool betting for the "daily double," etc., which the Bill as it stands debars. Moreover, these figures are with a "breakage" of 3d., which is the same breakage as allowed in horse racing, and not the drastic minimum of a penny. In actual fact the cost of the operation of the electric totalisator for ordinary win and place pools in the case of Wembley was approximately 5½ per cent. of the total pool. If the totalisators quoted had been operated on a basis of 3 per cent. deduction and a 1d. breakage, the loss incurred in each case for the period of operation would have been as follows: Wembley, £5,971 (nine months only); Perry Barr, £3,064; Cardiff, £4,570. In the case of the White City in London the average salary paid to the totalisator staff per meeting was £150, which I think is not excessive. On a basis of 3 per cent. the management would require to take a pool of one hundred thousand one shilling units per meeting to cover this cost alone. This figure is very considerably in excess of any pool when the totalisator was in operation.
The restrictions upon greyhound racing in regard to the "tote" proposed by this Bill at present—I am very glad to hear that the position is to be ameliorated—are not equitable when the conditions given to horse racing are considered. I do not want anybody to think that I am saying one word against horse racing. On the contrary, nobody would like to see horse racing prosper more than myself. I can only compare one with the other. The Racecourse Betting Act of 1928 lays down no restrictions whatever upon the percentage to be deducted. In point of fact the horse race "totes" started at 6 per cent., but later the amount had to be increased, and to-day it is approximately 12 per cent. There seems to be a general idea that horse racecourse managements Are debarred from any interest in totalisator takings, but this idea is quite erroneous. These managements in fact take 1 per cent. of all off-course "tote" betting, while by an agreement mentioned in the Control Board's Annual Report for 1929 the managements are also to take 60 per cent. of any surpluses from on-course "tote" betting as well. If the principle is right for horse

773
racing it is right also for greyhound racing. That is the only reason I mention it.
By axing the "tote" percentage at too low a figure the Bill will provide a direct incentive to managements, in fact a compulsion upon them, to stimulate the maximum possible amount of betting in order to cover expenses, thus defeating one of the main objects of the Bill and creating a most undesirable state of affairs. If the percentage is low the turnover must be as big as possible, and managements will be forced to employ every device to make the public bet as much as possible. In the case of the White City just quoted, for example, the management would have to secure the investment of 100,000 units at 1s. before they could even pay the wages of the "tote" staff. Thus from commercial necessity, even on the better courses, the sport will be subordinated to the betting and made dependent on it.
From the figures quoted it will be seen that the fixing of a percentage deduction of 7½ per cent. will allow in some cases for the making of a profit, but in others a loss will be incurred. If the Government will not agree to the establishment of a statutory authority to operate the totalisator or the sliding scale of deductions according to circumstances, it necessarily follows that any reasonable figures arrived at will deal hardly with one racecourse while benefiting another. The figure of 7— per cent. was only suggested as a mean, and I am very glad indeed to hear the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill say that, although that figure cannot be agreed to, some figure between the proposed figure of 3 per cent. and 7½ per cent. will be decided on. The suggestion has been made by the Government, I think in the Second Reading debate, that, the totalisator being an added facility on a greyhound racecourse, it would be reasonable to suppose that any deficit due to the operation of the "tote" could be set off against increased admission charges to the public. That would be very difficult. It would be equally reasonable to suggest that the price of a cup of tea should be increased. Greyhound racing caters for the man of limited means, and any increased admission charges would in many cases preclude his attendance. High prices mean lower attendances. I beg to move.
Amendment move—
Page 27, line 16, leave out ("three") and insert ("seven and one-half").—(The Duke of Sutherland.)
LORD ASKWITH: I am very glad that my noble friend has brought these facts and put them upon record, because they will be very useful for consideration when the noble Marquess comes to look more closely into the matter. I am sure that every piece of information which he may desire will be given to him. That would meet my view of the matter, because I think these clauses have been drafted without practical knowledge of how the totalisator works; and if those who have had practical experience of it can give any information upon the point, I am sure that they will be very ready to do so and to assist in a settlement of this difficulty which will lead to the whole of the trouble on both sides being settled in a better way than seemed possible when this very drastic suggestion was put down in the Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: At this late hour I am not proposing to follow the noble Duke in the remarks which he has made. I will only say that I do not accept the whole of the statements that he has made. I would point out to the noble Lord who has just spoken that this matter has been very closely gone into; it has been very closely investigated. I have given the noble Duke an undertaking that we are naturally considering this matter from every point of view. We are considering exactly what can be done, and I have told him that if we can see that there is a case to be made out we shall not be unwilling to increase the percentage of the deductions from the pools. That is the undertaking which I gave to the noble Duke some quarter of an hour ago.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: I should like to thank the noble Marquess. I only quoted those figures in order to try to make out a good case on which he could go, before finally coming to a decision.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I know, but I do not accept them.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL THE EARL OF KINNOULL moved to add to proviso (b) in paragraph 2: "and a further condition that where the ticket,

775
coupon, form or statement of such bet be lost, torn, defaced or unclaimed the money represented or obtainable upon the presentation of such ticket, coupon, form, or statement shall accrue and be paid to the occupier of the track." The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to prevent the occupier of a track having to pay out on tickets, coupons, forms or statements of bets which are torn, defaced or unclaimed. This really only brings it into line with what has been already prescribed by the Racecourse Betting Control Board. It is very easy for people to forge these torn-up tickets, and it leads to a lot of trouble and a lot of unnecessary work on behalf of the track. I know it may be said that some track owners are unscrupulous themselves. I am not going to press this Amendment, but I do think that some words should be inserted here in order to bring it into line with the course already adopted by the Racecourse Betting Control Board.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 26, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I am glad to hear that the noble Earl is not going to press his Amendment, because I think it would have unexpected and undesirable consequences which perhaps he has not taken into consideration. There may be no attempt at fraud, and the ticket may be quite legible, and easy to identify, yet the slightest tear or damage or defacement would entitle the operator to refuse payment. On those grounds I think the Amendment would be unfair.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: I agree entirely with the noble Earl, but would it be possible to give general effect to my idea? I confess I am not satisfied with my own Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF EFFINGHAM THE EARL OF EFFINGHAM moved, in paragraph 4, after "deem necessary," to insert "and shall be present at all times at race meetings, calculating dividends, and issuing therefor certificates on the next following working day. He shall have power to authorise his clerk, assistant, or servant to act for or on his behalf for such purpose." The noble Earl said: We think it very important that either a chartered accountant or an incorporated
776
accountant should be present at all and every meeting, in charge of the whole operation, in conjunction with a mechanic or other servant for the purpose of calculating dividends or any pools whatsoever. It may mean employing on some of the larger tracks four to six accountants. It should also be compulsory for the chartered accountant to certify the following working day that all dividends calculated were correct. It must be a sine qua non that, whichever of the two great bodies of accountants supply the accountants, they must be of such quality, status and integrity that their certificates would be acceptable without question by the Inland Revenue authorities for the preparation of accounts for Income Tax purposes. As the elaborate "tote" is both fool- and fraud-proof the mechanic suggested in the Bill is given undue prominence. Were he placed in the position which the Bill gives him it would be very difficult for the management to determine his services, he having power to question the bona fides of their working of the "tote." The chartered accountant is the expert who would decide equitably and exactly, not the mechanic.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 42, at end, insert the said words.—(The Earl of Effingham.)
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I understand that the effect of the Amendment would be that the accountant and the technical adviser of the accountant would cease to be supervisors of the operation of the totalisator, as is proposed in the Bill, and they would be placed in the position of being operators of the totalisator. The scheme in the Bill is that the operator of the track should operate the totalisator, and that his operations should be subject to supervision by an accountant, and it is held by the Government that the Amendment would in fact place the accountant and his technical adviser in the position of being operators. On those grounds the Amendment, I am afraid, cannot be accepted.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD BAYFORD LORD BAYFORD moved to insert at the end of paragraph 8:
"Provided that, where the licensing authority is a joint committee appointed in accordance with the provisions of Section 4 of this Act, the operator shall transmit to the licensing authority such number of

777
copies of the accounts and certificate as are sufficient to enable the licensing authority to keep one copy at their offices for the purpose of record and to deposit for inspection as aforesaid one copy at their offices and one copy at the offices of each of the councils by whom the licensing authority was appointed."
The noble Lord said: I understand the Government are prepared to accept this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 6, after ("charge") insert the said proviso.—(Lord Bayford.)
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second Schedule agreed to.
House adjourned at ten minutes before twelve o'clock.

RAMSGATE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to he proposed by the Committee of Selection.
SOUTH DOWNS PRESERVATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Carnock be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Earl of Iddesleigh: Read, and agreed to

SOUTH MOLTON GAS ORDER, 1934.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Mayor, aldermen and burgesses of the Borough of South Molton:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

BRIDGEND GAS ORDER, 1934.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Bridgend Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WALLASEY ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1934.
Special Order in respect of part of the Borough of Wallasey:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

LAND SETTLEMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Bill had been endorsed with a Certificate from the Speaker that it is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911.