Sitting of 1 May 1934

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely :
London County Council (Money) Bill.
Bill to be read a Second time.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating In the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely :
Watchet Urban District Council Bill [Lords].
Wandsworth Borough Council Bill [Lords].
Bills to be read a Second time.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  COAL INDUSTRY.

    OVERTIME.
    Mr. TINKERasked the Secretary for Mines if he is now in a position to make a statement on his investigation of overtime worked in the mines; and will he say if an opportunity will be given to the House for a discussion upon it?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Ernest Brown): With regard to the first part of the question, I have at present nothing to add to the answer I gave on Thursday last to a question by the hon. Member for Hamilton. With regard to the second part, I suggest that the hon. Member should await the result of the investigation.
    Mr. TINKER: Is the hon. Member aware that the method of investigation in Lancashire has not met with the approval of the workers, and will he, before he comes to a decision, consult the workers, so that he will know their opinions?
    Mr. BROWN: I should like to hear any representations which the hon. Member may wish to make.
    Mr. T. SMITH: Can the hon. Member say how many of these investigations are being made?
    Mr. BROWN: At the moment, they are being made in Lancashire.
    Mr. GEORGE HALL: What is the objection to consultation taking place with the representatives on the spot?
    Mr. BROWN: I have answered that question before. If the hon. Member will put the question down, I will give him a considered reply again.
    Mr. DUNCAN GRAHAM: When will the hon. Member be able to tell us when the other investigations will take place?
    Mr. BROWN: I made it clear in initiating these investigations, that it will depend upon the facts that come out at the investigations whether wider investigations will be justified or not.
    Mr. EDWARD WILLIAMSasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that miners engaged at Raglan Colliery, South Wales, are compelled to work excessive overtime in moving conveyors after the termination of their statutory working hours; and whether he will take steps to prevent these breaches of the law?
    Mr. E. BROWN: Inquiries have been made, and I am not satisfied that the overtime worked recently at this mine is justified. The question is still under consideration, and I hope that a decision will be reached in a few days.

    OVERWINDING.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines what progress is being made by the departmental committee appointed to inquire into precautions against overwinding; and whether a report in the near future is contemplated?
    Mr. E. BROWN: The committee have almost completed the hearing of oral evidence on the subject remitted to them. Their recent meetings have been devoted to examination at the collieries of various types of apparatus in operation. I understand that they hope to hear the final witnesses during June and to prepare their report soon afterwards.

    WAGES (REGULATION).
    Mr. BATEYasked the Secretary for Mines if he will take the necessary steps to introduce legislation to amend Part IV of the Mines Act, 1930, so that a national wages board will be established to regulate miners' wages nationally?
    Mr. E. BROWN: No, Sir. In present circumstances I am afraid that I do not see any direction in which the provision in question could be amended so as to make it an effective instrument for the purpose which the hon. Member has in mind
    Mr. BATEY: As the Minister has withdrawn the Mines Bill, which was to amend Part I, cannot he use the time to amend Part IV?
    Mr. BROWN: The hon. Member must understand that Part IV of the Act of 1930 has not been an effective part. The problem is not to put up a general idea, but to get it into practical operation.
    Mr. BATEY: As Part IV is practically a dead letter, does the Minister not think that the time has come when something should be done to amend it?
    Mr. BROWN: The general word "something" does not carry us any further.
    Mr. D. GRAHAM: Is not Part I part of the 1930 Act?
    Mr. BROWN: Part I has proved possible of amendment, with the good will of the industry, in practical terms.
    Mr. BATEY: Is the Minister aware that what we propose is an amendment of the Act to make it effective?
    Mr. BROWN: I understand that nobody at the moment has found any way of doing it by voluntary arrangement, except by compulsory arbitration, which no one wants.
    Mr. BATEY: Cannot samething be done to make it effective?

    STEAM ROAD VEHICLES (COAL CONSUMPTION).
    Mr. G. HALLasked the Secretary for Mines the amount of coal used by steam road vehicles for each of the last three years?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I regret that I am not in a position to give the desired information as official statistics are not available, but it has been estimated that the annual consumption is nearly 1,000,000 tons.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    EMPIRE MARKETING BOARD.
    Mr. RANKINasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he can now make any further statements with regard to the winding-up of the Marketing Board and the extent to which its activities will be continued in other ways?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): In accordance with the recommendations of the Imperial Committee on Economic Consultation and Co-operation which reported in 1933, certain of the economic and statistical services previously carried on by the Empire Marketing Board, namely, (1) periodical market intelligence notes and (2) world surveys of production and trade, are being conducted on a co-operative basis as part of the work of the Imperial Economic Committee. As regards the research schemes financed from the Empire Marketing Fund, the position was explained in the reply given on the 15th March to the hon. and gallant Member for Hitchin (Sir A. Wilson) of which I am sending a copy to the hon. Member. Of the remaining activities of the Empire Marketing Board, the Film Unit and the Film Library have been taken over by the General Post Office for an experimental period.
    Mr. HANNON: Is it not a fact that most of the activities of the Empire Marketing Board, which were so important

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    to this country and the Dominions, are now being carried on by other Departments?
    Mr. THOMAS: Yes. That was in consequence of a number of the Dominions being unable to see eye to eye with us on the question of continuing the work of the Empire Marketing Board.

    COTTON INDUSTRY.
    Mr. CHORLTONasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that further cotton-manufacturing concerns are closing down; and if he has anything yet to report of the methods which it is proposed to institute to prevent the continuing depression of the cotton trade which will result in that part of Lancashire becoming derelict?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): I am very conscious of the continued difficulties of the cotton industry, and I am following with close interest the progress of the efforts which are now being made by certain organisations in Lancashire with a view to improving the present situation.
    Mr. CHORLTON: When does the right hon. Gentleman hope to make some announcement of what he and his Department are doing for Lancashire in connection with this matter?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am afraid that I cannot mention any date at the present moment.
    Mr. THORP: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that three mills have closed down in Nelson and Colne since the General Election and that nearly one-third of the operatives are still out of employment; and will he give some indication when the situation in Lancashire is likely to be dealt with?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am sure that my hon. and learned Friend realises that it is impossible to deal with all these problems by way of one solution. We are co-operating and are always ready to co-operate with the industry itself, as well as taking steps ourselves.
    Mr. THORP: In view of that answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.
    Lieut. - Colonel Sir WALTER SMILESasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the percentage
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    of the United Kingdom for the years 1932, 1933, and 1934 of the total imports of cotton piece goods into the Argentine Republic; and how does this figure compare with Japanese cotton piece goods imported into the Argentine for the same years?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Imports of cotton piece goods into the Argentine Republic in 1932 amounted to 25,121 metric tons, of which 9,984 metric tons or 39.7 per cent. were imported from the United Kingdom and 1,754 metric tons or 7.0 per cent. from Japan. Similar information for any later period is not yet available.

    RETAINED IMPORTS.
    Mr. ALAN TODDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the retained imports of articles wholly or mainly manufactured, but excluding non-ferrous metals and oils and fats, were over 20 per cent. higher in the first three months of 1934 as compared with the same period of 1933; and, in view of this, if he can state the policy of His Majesty's Government for dealing with this rapid growth of competitive manufactured imports?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am aware of the fact to which my hon. Friend draws attention. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Perkins) on the 28th March.
    Mr. REMERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the retained imports of plate and sheet glass for the first quarter of 1933 were 235,400 cwts., and in the first quarter of 1934 449,339 cwts., an increase of 90.8 per cent.; and whether he will make the necessary inquiries and ascertain the reason for this importation?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am aware of the figures to which my hon. Friend refers. I understand that the increase in imports is due in part to an improvement in demand and in part to a tendency this year for merchants to increase their stocks.
    Mr. REMERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the retained imports of cotton piece-goods in the first quarter of 1934 amounted to 3,892,000 square yards as compared with 2,755,000 square yards in

    127
    the corresponding period of 1933, an increase of 41.2 per cent.; and whether, in view of the stress in which the cotton industry finds itself, he will indicate what measures he proposes to take in the interests of employment?
    Mr. HARTLANDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that in the first quarter of 1934 the retained imports of cotton yarns amounted to 811,608 lbs., as compared with 419,092 lbs. in the corresponding quarter of 1933, an increase of 93.6 per cent.; and whether, in view of the difficulties which the spinning industry is at present experiencing, he will take steps to restrict the importation of cotton yarns of foreign origin?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am aware of the increases in imports to which my hon. Friends refer. While it is open to the spinners and manufacturers concerned to apply to the Import Duties Advisory Committee with a view to increased duties upon these goods, I would point out that retained imports of cotton yarns and piece-goods in 1933 amounted respectively to about one-fifth and one-third of 1 per cent. of the 1930 production of similar goods in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. REMERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the retained imports of tissue paper during the period of January to March, 1934, are 92 per cent. higher than in the period January to March, 1933, having risen from 52,000 cwts. to 101,000 cwts.; and whether he will obtain the information as to the number of persons who have failed to find employment by reason of this increased importation from abroad?
    Mr. HARTLANDasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the retained imports of woollen goods in the first three months of 1933 have increased from £379,118 to £598,284 in the first three months of 1934; and whether he will obtain information as to the effect upon employment in the woollen industry of this increased importation;
    (2) whether he is aware that the retained imports of boots in the period January to March, 1934, amounted to 44,725 dozen pairs as compared with
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    25,951 dozen pairs, an increase of 72.3 per cent.; and if he will obtain information as to the effect of this increased importation upon employment in the boot and shoe industry?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am aware of the figures of importation referred to by my hon. Friends, and while it is not possible to relate these figures directly with the statistics of unemployment, I am informed that the average number of insured persons unemployed declined in the first quarter of 1934 compared with the first quarter of 1933 by 2,169 in the paper and paper board industry, 20,387 in the woollen and worsted industry and by 2,071 in the boot and shoe industry.
    Mr. REMER: In view of the disquieting figures of increased imports referred to in all these questions, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has any evidence of any kind of subsidy paid by foreign governments which would account for the increase?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, Sir, I could not say without notice.
    Mr. TODDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the retained imports of clocks in the first quarter of 1934 have risen by 22.4 per cent. over the imports for the corresponding period of 1933, and the imports of clock movements by 82.2 per cent. during a similar period; whether this increase is greater than was anticipated when the concession was made to the German industry in the recent trade agreement; and, if so, whether he will take steps to rectify the matter?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am aware of the facts to which my hon. Friend draws attention. As regards the second and third parts of the question I would refer to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for Wycombe (Sir A. Knox) on 17th April.

    INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT (SURVEY).
    Dr. McLEANasked the President of the Board of Trade when he will give to the House the result of the survey of industrial development in the United Kingdom since January, 1933, to which reference was made in the Board of Trade Journal of 29th June, 1933?
    Mr. STOURTONasked the President of the Board of Trade how many

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    new factories were erected during the year 1933 and the number of people it is estimated they give employment to?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: A recent survey has been made by the Board of Trade, in co-operation with the Factory Department of the Home Office and with the Ministry of Labour, of factories engaged in the manufacture or processing of goods for sale, but excluding factories engaged in the provision of services. The survey has been confined to factories employing 25 or more workers each.
    During the year 1933, 409 factories falling within this description were closed down. On the other hand, 463 new factories were opened during the year employing at the end of December, 29,500 workers. There are also recorded 95 cases of factory extensions during the year.
    I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a tabular statement snowing the distribution of these undertakings by districts.

    Region.

    New Factories.

    Employment.

    Factory Extensions.

    Factories closed down.

    South and South West England

    20

    1,150

    4

    10

    Greater London

    …

    …

    220

    13,450

    25

    107

    Wales

    …

    …

    2

    450

    —

    2

    The Midlands

    …

    …

    63

    3,450

    27

    94

    Eastern Counties

    …

    …

    17

    1,850

    8

    12

    North West England

    …

    …

    94

    6,200

    17

    109

    North East England

    …

    …

    33

    1,750

    10

    46

    Scotland

    …

    …

    14

    1,200

    4

    29

    Total

    …

    …

    463

    29,500

    95

    409

    INTER-IMPERIAL TRADE.
    Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that in the first quarter of 1934 our imports of currants from Greece rose to 106,569 cwts. from 76,328 cwts. in the first quarter of 1933, whilst those from Australia have remained practically stationary; and what steps he proposes to take to assist Australian producers to obtain a larger share of the home market;
    (2) whether he is aware of the fact that the imports of tinned and bottled fruit from the United States of America have risen by over 100 per cent. in the first quarter of 1934, as compared with the first quarter of 1933, namely, from
    A detailed Report showing the products of these new undertakings and certain other particulars, including the towns and areas in which they are situated, together with revised statistics of the factories covered by the similar survey for 1932, will be published next week.
    Dr. McLEAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman call the attention of the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland to this survey, as it is of great importance to town-planning schemes and housing schemes of local authorities?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will see the answer that I have given in reply to the Question.
    Mr. CHORLTON: Will the statement include Lancashire and the cotton trade?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I should not like to say definitely, as I have not the statement before me at the moment.
    Following is the table :
    232,122 cwts. to 628,641 cwts.; and whether steps will be taken, in view of the fact that we have no trade agreement with the United States of America, to divert this trade to home and Empire sources;
    (3) whether he is aware that, whilst the imports of maize from British countries in the first quarter of 1933 were 1,485,188 cwts., in the corresponding quarter of this year they have virtually ceased, while at the same time the imports of maize from Argentina have risen from 8,183,886 cwts. to 16,271,872 cwts. over the same periods; whether he can state the cause of this change; and whether he will take steps to re-establish the imports of maize from Empire countries?
    Major PROCTERasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware that the imports of oats from Russia in the first months of 1934 constituted one-third of the total imports, having risen from 102,148 cwts. in the first three months of 1933 to 486,590 cwts. in the corresponding period of 1934; and whether he will take such steps as will ensure our requirements of imported oats being supplied by British countries;
    (2) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that, in the first quarter of 1934 the imports of Russian wheat amounted to 2,226,000 cwts., as against only 250 cwts. in the corresponding period of 1933, and that imports of wheat from Canada fell from 13,885,000 cwts. to 7,693,000 cwts. over the same periods : and whether he proposes to take any steps to eliminate the dislocation of the market which these fluctuations in the imports of Russian wheat produce?
    Mr. GLOSSOPasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware that the imports of oat products from Canada during January, February and March of 1934 have fallen to 83,999 cwts. from 104,359 cwts. in the corresponding period of 1933, while at the same time foreign imports have risen from 29,316 cwts. to 77,000 cwts. in the same periods; and whether he is prepared to take any steps to rectify this state of affairs in favour of the Dominions;
    (2) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that imports of meat from the United States of America rose in value from £628,310 in the first quarter of 1933 to £1,016,751 in the corresponding quarter of 1934; and, in view of the serious situation with regard to meat and to the fact that we have no agreement with the United States of America in respect of imports from that country, will he take steps to give Empire countries the opportunity of obtaining this market?
    Mr. WHITESIDEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that the imports of foreign barley in the first quarter of 1934 stood at 4,253,280 cwts., as compared with 1,764,632 cwts. in the corresponding period of 1932; and whether steps will be taken to divert this
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    influx of foreign barley to British and Empire producers?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am aware of the figures to which attention is directed, but I would point out that it is often misleading to consider by themselves statistics relating to specific and limited periods and to specific countries. As an illustration of this fact I may mention that in the case of wheat, imports from Canada increased from 7,165,342 cwts. in the first three months of 1932 to 13,885,000 during the same period of 1933; in the case of oats, the increased imports from Soviet Russia in the first three months of 1934 are more than offset by the reduced imports from Argentina in the same period. As regards maize, the surplus available for export in Empire countries from the 1933 crops was unusually small, owing in the main to a short crop in the Union of South Africa.
    Considerably increased duties were imposed in January last on imports of oats and oat products from foreign countries, and in the case of most of the other commodities mentioned, Empire countries have the benefit of either free entry or preferential duties. While no favourable opportunity will be lost of developing inter-Imperial trade, I could not contemplate discriminatory action against the produce of particular countries merely because imports from those countries happened to show an increase in a particular period.
    Mr. HANNON: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his comprehensive reply to a series of questions, may I ask him whether the Board of Trade will carefully watch all cases in which increased imports of competing commodities from foreign countries are affecting our trade and take appropriate action at the right time?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: We are watching these movements carefully and I need not remind the hon. Member that the Ira-port Duties Advisory Committee are also easily stirred on this matter.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: Have the Import Duties Advisory Committee any concern with the matter referred to in Question 20—the imports of meat? What steps have been taken in that direction?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot add to the full reply I have given.
    Mr. GLOSSOP: Is it not a fact that these increasing imports from foreign

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    countries make it difficult to get the Dominions to restrict their imports of agricultural products? Would not a reduction of imports from foreign countries and an increase from the Dominions give a much better chance of helping agriculturalists in this country?
    Major PROCTER: The right hon. Gentleman says that he is watching the situation. That is exactly what Nero said.

    SHIPPING INDUSTRY.
    Mr. STOREYasked the President of the Board of Trade if he can now make a statement upon the steps he proposes to take to assist British shipping to meet foreign subsidised competition?
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he anticipates that it will be possible to make a statement as to the measure of assistance which the Government proposes to give to the shipping industry before the Whitsuntide adjournment?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot add anything at present to the reply I made on this subject on the 24th April. Discussions are still proceeding with the various organisations.

    IMPORTED BUTTER (PRICES).
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state in sterling the selling prices in this country and in the country of origin of butter from Denmark, Holland, Russia, and New Zealand, respectively?
    Mr. DREWEasked the President of the Board of Trade the domestic price of butter in Denmark and also the price at which it is exported to Great Britain?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: With regard to Denmark and Holland I would refer my hon. Friends to the answers given yesterday to the hon. Member for Devizes (Sir P. Hurd). The wholesale price in this country on 21st April of Russian butter was 68s. per cwt. and of New Zealand butter 69s. Information as to the wholesale prices of butter in Russia and New Zealand is not available.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that prices in the country of origin are three and four times the amount of the price of butter sold in this country, and does he not think that this is getting very near
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    dumping, if it is not altogether dumping, and that action should be taken as soon as possible?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have pointed out in the answer I have given that there is only 1s. per cwt. difference in the price of Russian butter and New Zealand butter.
    Sir W. DAVISON: What is the price of butter in Russia? Is it not 25s. per lb.?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Nobody in Russia can have butter.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the wholesale price of Russian butter is the same as the c.i.f. value?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot say without notice.
    Sir BASIL PETO: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is impossible to get information on such a simple question as the wholesale price of butter from one of our Dominions?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: We can get the information perfectly well, but I have not been asked for it.

    ARMS (EXPORT LICENCES).
    Mr. BERNAYSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any licences have been issued by the Government for the export of arms to Germany since the meeting of the Disarmament Conference in 1932; and, if so, for what quantities and descriptions of arms?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No licences have been issued.
    Mr. MANDERasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state in general the reasons why seven applications for licences for the export of arms were refused during the years 1930 to 1933?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The applications were refused on the advice of the Foreign Office and Service Departments that the export of the arms to the intended destinations would not be in the national interest.
    Mr. MANDER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what was the destination?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, Sir.

    UNITED STATES (RECIPROCAL TRADE).
    Sir PERCY HARRISasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the declaration by Mr. Cordell Hull, the United States of America Secretary of State, on the 23rd April, to the effect that the present movement towards extreme economic nationalism is choking international trade and spells disaster if continued, and that it is all important that the United States of America should adopt a programme of international economic co-operation; and whether the Government will approach the United States Government with a view of bringing about a reciprocal trade agreement?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I would refer to the answer I gave on the 10th April to my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert).
    Sir P. HARRIS: In view of the statement of Mr. Cordell Hull, are the Government considering re-summoning the adjourned Economic Conference?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: That is quite a different matter.

    FRANCE (TRADE NEGOTIATIONS).
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the President of the Board of Trade the present position with regard to the negotiation of a fresh trade agreement with France?
    Mr. G. HALLasked the President of the Board of Trade when the discussions with the French Government for a new trade agreement are to be resumed?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: A draft agreement on establishment and other miscellaneous questions has been submitted by the French Government and is now under our consideration. I am not at present in a position to state the date when the discussions relating to quotas and kindred matters will be resumed.

    BACON (IMPORTS).
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that, although the total amount of bacon imported into this country from Denmark and other sources fell in quantity to 1,900,410 cwts. in the first quarter of 1934 compared with
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    3,031,375 cwts. in the first quarter of 1932, the value of such imports actually rose from £7,270,151 to £7,645,009, he will now consider whether the present quota system of limiting these imports could be revised so as to ensure that greater benefit will result either to the British revenue or British bacon producers from this increase in the value of bacon?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I would refer to the answer I gave to a similar question by my hon. Friend on 20th February to which I have nothing to add.

    SAND BALLAST.
    Rear-Admiral Sir MURRAY SUETERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether early action will be taken to standardise the method of delivery of sand ballast, as the need of the trade for some standard is now acute?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: This matter is under active consideration but I regret that I cannot yet say when it will be possible to introduce legislation on the subject.

    GERMANY (PAYMENTS FOR GOODS).
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the difficulties experienced by British traders in obtaining payment for goods sent from the United Kingdom to Germany; and whether the Government will further consider the desirability of forming some kind of clearing house which would enable exports and imports to be set off against each other, special regard being had to the fact that the balance of trade is at present in Germany's favour?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I fully appreciate the difficulties experienced by British exporters to Germany. Certain suggestions have been made to the German Government with a view to meeting these difficulties. Pending the receipt of the German Government's reply, it would be premature for me to make a further statement.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Does my right hon. Friend realise how reasonable is the suggestion in the question, that when Germany has, as at present, a favourable balance of trade, something should be done to enable payment to be made of the money due from Germany to our traders who export goods to Germany?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: When I have received the German Government's reply I shall be prepared to make a further statement.

    WHEAT STARCH (IMPORTS).
    Mrs. TATEasked the President of the Board of Trade what quantities of wheat starch were imported into this country in the years 1931, 1932, and 1933, respectively?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I regret that the desired information is not available, as the imports of wheat starch are not separately recorded in the trade returns of the United Kingdom.
    Mrs. TATE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a firm in this country has offered to put up plant to supply the whole of the wheat starch used in this country, but is unable to do so because of the quantity which is being dumped on the market at the present time; and would be, therefore, consider having wheat starch imported into this country in a separate category?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: So far as the returns are concerned, we are always reluctant to add to their complications, but I will consider the suggestion made by my hon. Friend.

    SILK DUTIES.
    Captain STRICKLANDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will inform the House as to the position of the resumption of the inquiry by the Tariff Advisory Committee into the question of the silk and artificial silk duties; what difficulties prevent that resumption; and whether he will expedite the matter?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that every effort is being made to expedite this matter and I hope shortly to be in a position to make a further statement about it.

    CUNARD STEAMSHIP COMPANY (CONTRACTS).
    Mr. LEONARDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that a substantial part of the furnishings of the "Lusitania" and "Aquitania" were satisfactorily performed by Scottish furniture firms; if he will draw the attention of the Cunard Company to the public advantage to be gained by the spread of contracts for No. 534 over as large an
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    area as possible; and, in view of the large percentage of unemployment amongst Scottish furniture workers, will he direct the company's attention to the ability of Scottish furniture firms to meet their requirements?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I will communicate the hon. Member's suggestion to the Cunard Company.

    RUBBER INDUSTRY (RESTRICTION SCHEME).
    83. The following question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. HUTCHISON :
    "To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can now make any statement as to the course of the negotiations for the restriction of output of rubber."
    Mr. HUTCHISON: Owing to the question asked yesterday by the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winter-ton), I wish to withdraw this question.

  NEWFOUNDLAND (FISHING INDUSTRY).
  Mr. E. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the commissioners appointed by His Majesty's Government to serve in Newfoundland are taking steps to promote co-operation as regards purchase and marketing among the fishermen?
  Mr. J. H. THOMAS: The Commission of Government is, I know, giving close attention to this question, which was specially recommended for investigation by the Royal Commission on Newfoundland.

  SOUTH AFRICAN PROTECTORATES.
  Mr. OSWALD LEWISasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if his attention has been called to the declaration made by General Hertzog to the effect that the time is ripe for the transference of the native Protectorates of Bechuanaland, Basutoland and Swaziland to the South African Government; and if he will intimate to the South African Government that the British Government have no intention of parting with the control of these territories?
  Mr. J. H. THOMAS: I made a full statement yesterday, in reply to the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn), as to the position in this matter maintained

  139
  by successive United Kingdom Governments, including the present Government. I am not able to add anything to that statement.
  Mr. LEWIS: Can the right hon. Gentleman now give the House a clear undertaking that these territories will not be transferred to the Union of South Africa unless and until the majority of the native inhabitants have expressed themselves in favour of that policy?
  Mr. THOMAS: I have nothing to add to the statement that I made yesterday. As I explained in that statement, I am expecting a communication from the Prime Minister of South Africa. It would be discourteous to anticipate that communication, and I do not propose to do so.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is it not necessary to reassure these people, who have been carrying on the Government of these Protectorates very well? It must be very disturbing to them. There is no question but that these people are entitled to govern themselves.
  Mr. THOMAS: I do not know whether the hon. and learned Gentleman was present yesterday. If so, he will remember that the object of making that full statement was to allay any feeling that might arise.

  FIXED TRUSTS.
  Mr. BURNETTasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, for the protection of private investors, he will take steps to ensure that when invitations are made to the public to subscribe to fixed trusts or to units thereof, they should be accompanied by a disclosure of the remuneration, commission, fees, and profits to be obtained by the managers of the trust as distinct from the trustees?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have no power to require the disclosure of the information suggested by my hon. Friend.
  Mr. BURNETT: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the danger of possible exploitation by these trusts with a view to taking measures against it?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have no power to require a disclosure of these facts.
  Mr. JOHN WILMOT: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the urgent necessity of amending the law relating to industrial and provident societies with a view of preventing that machinery being used for evading the provisions of the Companies Act?
  Mr. THORP: Is it not the case that industrial and provident societies are used by co-operative societies?
  Mr. THORNE: Yes; and why not?

  TRANSPORT (MOTOR INSURANCE).
  Mr. HUTCHISONasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of companies insuring motorists which have failed in the last 12 months?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: The number is two. For further particulars I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which was given to the hon. Member for East Cardiff (Mr. Temple Morris) on the 19th April.
  Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will bring forward the Bill which his Department have under consideration in connection with insurance companies?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot say at the moment.

  COMPANIES ACT.
  Mr. WILMOTasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the number of public companies which at 20th April, 1934, had not complied with Sections 109 and 110 of the Companies Act, 1929, in respect of the year 1933; and will he state what steps the solicitor to the Board of Trade has taken to improve the machinery by which more punctual observance of this Section of the Act may be obtained?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: The number of these companies in default on 20th April in respect of the statutory requirements referred to by the hon. Member was 190. Companies to which Sections 109 and 110 of the Companies Act apply are companies not having a share capital and practically all are companies not trading for profit. About half of them are incorporated by licence under Section 18 of the Act under terms which enable the Board to secure

  141
  due compliance with requirements, and the remainder come within the scope of the general arrangements introduced to expedite the furnishing of annual returns by public companies.
  Mr. WILMOT: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the authorities concerned will take active steps to see that the Act is complied with?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: There has been a very great improvement in regard to the lodging of returns in the last two years.

  ECONOMIC ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Prime Minister if he has any statement to make with reference to recent changes made or contemplated in the staff of the Economic Advisory Committee?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): Mr. H. D. Henderson has resigned as from yesterday his position as one of the joint secretaries of the council on his election as a Fellow of All Souls College, Oxford. His colleague, Mr. Francis Hemming, now becomes sole secretary of the council, and Mr. P. K. Debenham and Mr. D. H. F. Rickett, at present assistants on the staff of the council, have been promoted to be assistant secretaries to the council.
  Mr. HANNON: In view of the monopoly of economic knowledge possessed by the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) should he not be added to the council?

  ARMAMENTS (PRIVATE MANUFACTURE).
  Mr. BERNAYSasked the Prime Minister whether he will propose to the chief European Powers the summoning of an international conference to consider the problem of the private manufacture of armaments?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The Government sees no advantage in this. The Disarmament Conference is still in being, end the question of private manufacture is one of the aspects of disarmament under consideration by that conference.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (PROCEDURE).
  Mr. LEWISasked the Prime Minister what action the Government propose to take with regard to the recommendations made last November by the Select Comittee on Procedure on the subject of the Guillotine?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I would ask my hon. Friend to await the statement which I propose to make when moving the Time-table Motion for the concluding stages of the Unemployment Bill.

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    INCOME TAX AND SUE-TAX (COLLECTION).
    Mr. WILMOTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount of Income Tax due but unpaid at the close of the financial year 1933–4 and the corresponding figure for the previous year; and what was the amount of tax collected in the month of April, 1934 and 1933, respectively?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The only estimate available of Income Tax in arrear at the close of a financial year is the amount of tax then outstanding which it is expected will be collected during the ensuing financial year and the figures for this arrear at the end of 1932–33 and 1933–34 were £24,000,000 and £20,000,000 respectively. The Exchequer receipt of Income Tax in the month of April, 1933, amounted to £9,974,000 and the Exchequer receipt for April, 1934, amounted to £8,817,000.
    Mr. WILMOT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that important financial institutions withheld payment of amounts collected from their clients until after the close of the financial year and thus considerably reduced the visible surplus?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No Sir, I am not aware of that fact. Perhaps the hon. Member would give me the information if he has any.
    Mr. THORNE: What effective steps are being taken to make these defaulters pay up?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: They are not defaulters, although they are not punctual payers.
    Mr. WILMOTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any consideration is being given to the evasion of Surtax by various methods; whether he is aware that these methods have been increasing during the last few years and that books explaining how to defraud the Revenue have been published; and whether it is proposed to introduce provisions in the Finance Bill which will prevent further loss to the Revenue?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As the hon. Member is no doubt aware provisions designed to check legal avoidance of taxation have from time to time been placed upon the Statute Book. While I am not proposing to include further preventive legislation in this year's Finance Bill, the hon. Member may rest assured that the matter is not being lost sight of and that if circumstances so require there will be no hesitation in taking whatever steps may be considered necessary to deal with it.
    Mr. WILMOT: Has the right hon. Gentleman any evidence that there is a very considerable increase in what might be referred to as scientific tax evasion?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Some increase.

    ESTATE DUTIES.
    Sir M. SUETERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total amount of Estate and Succession Duty paid during the last 20 years?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The total amount of Estate Duty, Legacy Duty and Succession Duty paid in the 20 years 1914–15 to 1933–34 inclusive was £1,142,000,000.
    Captain HAROLD BALFOUR: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long we shall have to go on using this capital as annual national income?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is not all being used as annual income. Some of it is being applied to redemption of debt.

    INCOME TAX ASSESSOR, SHOREDITCH (REMUNERATION).
    Mr. LEWIS JONES (for Mr. SUMMERSBY)asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that an assessor-canvasser in the employ of the Commissioner of Taxes, in the Tower Division, canvassed the Church District of Shoreditch, as a result of which
    144
    £2,700 was paid in Income Tax; is he aware that the £8 paid to the canvasser as wages was only at the rate of 3d. per hour for the time employed; and will he see that such canvassers are properly remunerated in future?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I assume the work to which the question refers is the compilation of a conjectural list of persons liable to Income Tax. This is a normal part of the duty of an assessor who is paid on a basis which takes due account of the work necessarily done during the year. The assessor referred to was appointed late in the financial year 1931–32 and the amount of £8 was paid to him in respect of that fraction of the year for which he acted. I cannot accept the suggestion that the result of his activities was an increase of £2,700 in the yield of Income Tax.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    REMOUNTS (PURCHASES, IRELAND).
    Sir GIFFORD FOXasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, with a view to preventing the purchase as Army remounts in Northern Ireland of horses which have been smuggled over the border from the Irish Free State, he will take steps, in the interest of the horse-breeding industry in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to obtain sufficient particulars with regard to remounts so purchased in order to ensure that they are not from the Irish Free State?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Duff Cooper): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for Dorset East (Mr. Hall-Caine) on 22nd February, to which I have nothing to add.

    TERRITORIAL ARMY (TRAINING PAY).
    Mr. MACQUISTENasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what would be the cost of restoring the cuts in the pay of the personnel of those units of the Territorial Forces whose fortnight's annual training is taken wholly or partly prior to the 1st of July; and will he restore the cuts of such personnel?
    Mr. COOPER: The cost would be approximately £800. With regard to the

    145
    last part of the question, as my hon. Friend is aware, the decision of the Government is that the restoration should date from 1st July.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Can the hon. Gentleman not persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government to expedite the payment of this miserable sum to men who are devoting a great deal of their own time to this work, with practically no reward beyond what barely covers their out-of-pocket expenses?

  SCOTLAND.

    SCHOOL INSPECTORS (WOMEN).
    Mrs. SHAWasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the recommendations made in paragraph 414 of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service with regard to the employment of women in inspectorates; and whether he proposes to give effect to these recommendations when making appointments to the post of inspectors of schools in Scotland?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): The answer to both parts of the question is in the affirmative. In the paragraph to which my hon. Friend refers, the Royal Commission dealt only with the inspectorate under the Board of Education; but the principles underlying their recommendations are applicable to the Scottish inspectorate, and my right hon. Friend has decided to give effect to them. In future, therefore, women will be eligible, equally with men, for appointment as inspectors and sub-inspectors of schools in Scotland, and for promotion to the higher posts in the inspectorate.

    GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (ADMINISTRATIVE POSTS).
    Mr. LEONARDasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his discussions with the Treasury have succeeded in gaining a greater apportionment of civil servants to the Departments under his control who have qualified at entrance by examination for higher administrative positions?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir Godfrey Collins): The establishment of the Scottish Office includes provision for direct recruitment
    146
    from the administrative class examination, but such provision is not at present made in the case of the Departments in Edinburgh under my control. The various considerations involved in any change in the existing establishments are engaging my attention, but no conclusion has yet been reached at to what changes should be made in the staffing arrangements of the Edinburgh Departments.
    Mr. LEONARD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the lack of officials with these qualifications is considered in Scotland to be a grave reflection on the status of these Departments, to say nothing of the Secretaryship of State for Scotland?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The point raised by my hon. Friend is actually under consideration. The matter is engaging my personal attention at the moment.

    HOUSING (ROSS AND CROMARTY).
    Mr. LEONARDasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has considered the communication from the Scottish Farm Servants' Union to the Department of Health for Scotland, on the 21st March, 1933, with regard to the failure of the county council of Ross and Cromarty to take notice of complaints lodged by the union, under the Housing and Public Health Acts, until their attention was called to the complaints by the Department of Health, after which a decision was issued that it is impracticable to introduce water or provide water closets; in view of the failure of the county council of Ross and Cromarty to exercise its statutory powers and of the repeated requests to the Department to take action, under Section 37 of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, will he cause a reply to be sent to that request; and will he state what action he proposes to take?
    Mr. SKELTON: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The communication referred to dealt with five groups of cottages; and replies have already been sent dealing with the different complaints involved and stating the action taken. I may add that Section 37 of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, is not applicable except in cases of general failure to deal with housing conditions, and in any case does not apply to complaints concerning a

    147
    water supply. Action has been, or is being, taken by the county council, except in respect of the introduction of water and the provision of water closets in two of the groups of cottages, three and four in number respectively. With respect to the introduction of water into these two groups, the county council are of opinion that this is not reasonably practicable on grounds of expense. My technical advisers do not agree with this view. There has been some doubt as to whether the decision of the local authority that the introduction of water into a house is not reasonably practicable is final, or whether the Department of Health can raise the matter in the Sheriff Court under Section 146 of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897. My right hon. Friend is considering the question of raising a test case to have this question decided.
    Mr. LEONARD: In view of the time that has elapsed since this matter was raised, will the hon. Gentleman see fit to expedite it, especially in view of the fact that his own inspectors on two occasions have reported that the complaints could have been stronger than they actually were?
    Sir IAN MACPHERSON: Will the hon. Gentleman approach the county council again to see whether they will arrange this matter amicably?
    Mr. SKELTON: Yes, Sir, I will consider that.
    Mr. NEIL MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the total number of slum houses to be cleared in Scotland under the five-years' programme and the number of new houses to be built in replacement; and whether he will consider the publication of the particulars for each local authority?
    Mr. SKELTON: Information as to the total number of unfit houses to be cleared is not available, but according to the programmes for the five years 1934–1938 submitted by 208 out of 228 housing authorities in Scotland it is estimated that 59,774 houses are required to replace unfit houses and that 42,948 new houses or 72 per cent. of the estimated requirements will be erected for this purpose. Neither of these figures is final, as the Department of Health for Scotland are in communication with certain local authorities
    148
    as to the adequacy of their estimated needs and of their proposed rehousing programmes. As a result of these communications revised programmes are still being received. With regard to the latter part of the question, publication of the numbers for each authority will be considered as soon as the necessary information is available.
    Mr. MACLEAN: May I ask whether the Department are taking any action in the case of those authorities which have not complied with the request?
    Mr. SKELTON: Yes, Sir, action has been taken, and as a result the great majority of the authorities have now sent in their schemes.

    POLICE GAZETTE.
    Mr. ANSTRUTHER-GRAYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has yet received the views of the police authorities of Scotland on the publication of a police gazette in Scotland on the same lines as that issued by Scotland Yard?
    Sir G. COLLINS: Of the 48 police authorities, 43 have agreed to participate in the scheme, three have refused to participate, and two have not yet submitted final replies. Looking to the large majority in favour of the scheme steps are being taken to institute the gazette referred to.
    Mr. ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Could the right hon. Gentleman give the names of the two authorities who have failed to submit replies after all these months?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I should prefer not at the moment. I hope that with a little further delay we may secure a unanimous scheme.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is there any need for a police gazette so long as we have the "News of the World"?

    MALTING BARLEY (MARKETING).
    Mr. HENDERSON STEWART (for Mr. STUART)asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has received the report of the committee, composed of representatives of the farming and distilling industries, set up by him to inquire into the marketing of malting barley; and, if so, whether he will publish it before the Committee stage of the Finance Bill is reached?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the last part, arrangements have been made for the publication of the report on Monday next.

  AGRICULTURE.

    CONDENSED MILK.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture whether the scheme for the voluntary restriction of the import of condensed milk will be worked on a monthly, quarterly, or an annual basis; and whether the restrictions will apply jointly or separately to condensed whole milk and milk powder?
    The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): I have been asked to reply. The regulation of imports of condensed whole milk as from the 1st April is being arranged on a monthly basis. Imports of that product and of milk powder are being regulated separately.
    Mr. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture if his attention has been drawn to the recent heavy fall in the price of skimmed condensed milk; and, under these circumstances, what further steps he proposes to take to deal with this new danger to our dairying industry?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Prices of imported condensed skimmed milk have recently declined, but prices of the home product are being maintained. Imports are at present regulated quantitatively by voluntary arrangements with exporting countries, and the market situation is being kept under close review in that connection.

    MEAT (MARKING).
    Mr. ANSTRUTHER-GRAYasked the Minister of Agriculture what steps are being taken towards adopting the recommendations of the Standing Committee on Marking in their report of November last as to the marking of imported meat?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: My right hon. Friend regrets that he is not in a position at present to add to the reply given on 22nd March to a similar question by my Noble Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perth (Duchess of Atholl).

  UNEMPLOYMENT (BENEFIT).
  Mr. MABANEasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the fact that the date for restoring the rates of unemployment insurance benefit to the previous figure has been fixed at 1st July, not in consideration of cost but purely on account of the administrative difficulties of making retrospective payments, and in view of the further fact that these administrative difficulties would be avoided by the introduction of an ad hoc Bill to restore the rates of benefit at some date earlier than 1st July and to cover the period between that earlier date and 1st July, he will undertake to introduce such a Bill immediately if assurances can be obtained that the Bill will not be opposed at any stage?
  The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton): No, Sir. I regret that this is not possible.
  Mr. MABANE: Would it not be possible by a simple Amendment of the National Economy Act, 1931; and, in view of the fact that the majority of Members of the House would be very willing to accept such a Bill, could it not be done if no cost is involved, as the right hon. Gentleman declared on the 23rd April?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: I am advised that it would need first a Financial Resolution with all its stages, and then a Bill with all its stages; in addition, there is a great deal of administrative work to be done in consequence of the change of the rates of benefit. Having regard to the fact that to-day is the 1st May, I doubt if anything could be done before the 1st July.
  Mr. MABANE: Could it not be done to take effect on the 1st June?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: No, for the reasons I have given, I do not think it could, and the saving of time would be infinitesimal if we adopted the suggestion of my hon. Friend.
  Mr. TINKER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a matter like this we should do all we could to get the Bill through quickly?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: I am delighted to hear that, and I would remind the hon. Member that as soon as the Unemployment Bill gets through a large number of people will benefit.

  EDUCATION (COST).
  Mr. POTTERasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education the cost per child in respect of elementary education in England and Wales for the year ended 31st March, 1934, and the comparative figures for the years 1930, 1931, 1932, and 1933?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Ramsbotham): The average cost per pupil for education in elementary schools in England and Wales for the years ended 31st March, 1930–1933, is as follows :

  £

  s.

  d.

  1930

  12

  15

  6

  1931

  13

  2

  6

  1932

  12

  12

  5

  1933

  12

  2

  7

  Figures for the year ended 31st March, 1934, are not yet available.
  Mr. POTTERasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education the cost per pupil in respect of secondary education in England and Wales for the year ended 31st March, 1934, and the comparative figures for the previous four years, respectively?
  Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: The average net cost, after deducting receipts from fees, for the years ended 31st March, 1930–1933, is as follows :

  £

  s.

  d.

  1930

  26

  1

  0

  1931

  25

  17

  0

  1932

  24

  9

  0

  1933

  23

  3

  0

  These figures do not include provision for administration which, it is estimated, amounts approximately to £2 per pupil. Figures for the year ended 31st March, 1934, are not yet available.

  PRISONS (PHYSICAL EXERCISES).
  Mr. ANSTRUTHER-GRAYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether physical exercise classes under a qualified gymnastic instructor now form a part of the regular curriculum in all the larger prisons?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): Yes, Sir. Men who are physically fit receive physical training daily under the supervision of qualified officers
  152
  unless they are employed on outdoor work of a kind which makes such exercises less necessary. In addition, gymnastic classes under specially qualified gymnastic instructors are held in the evenings at practically all establishments, except those where the age or physical condition of the prisoners make it undesirable. In women's establishments the numbers suitable for physical training are small, but classes are held where possible and there is a qualified physical training instructress at Aylesbury Borstal Institution.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that this gymnastic instruction does not have any effect in increasing the skill and qualifications of the cat burglar?

  LIFT ACCIDENT, PICCADILLY, LONDON.
  Mr. THORNEasked the Home Secretary if he has received a report from his inspector in connection with the serious injury sustained by a youth who was trapped for nearly two hours in a lift at the Popular Café, Piccadilly; whether proper appliances are in use at this hotel for the purpose of safeguarding their employés; and, if not, what steps he intends taking in the matter?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I have received a report on this unfortunate occurrence. The accident appears to have been due to the youth having overbalanced while travelling on the lift, though it was intended for goods only and was full of baskets; and there was a notice strictly forbidding employés and carmen to travel on the lift. I have no powers as regards dangerous practices or safeguards on hotel and restaurant lifts and no information indicating that any general action on the subject is called for. In the present case, however, I am arranging for a factory inspector to discuss with the firm whether there are any further precautions which can usefully be taken to prevent any repetition of such an occurrence.

  LANDLORD AND TENANT ACT.
  Mr. MITCHELLasked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1927, does not afford any relief whatever to lessees of small

  153
  properties whose freeholds are being purchased by groups of speculators who serve on the tenants severe schedules of dilapidations with a view to obtaining possession; and whether, since many houses are springing up in the London area and will be increasingly subject to methods of this nature, he will consider the desirability of introducing an amending Bill at an early date?
  The SOLICITOR - GENERAL (Sir Donald Somervell): I have been asked to reply. The attention of my right hon. and learned Friend has not been specially called to cases of hardship arising in the circumstances mentioned, but if my hon. Friend will give particulars, inquiries will be made into the matter.
  Mr. MITCHELL: Will the Solicitor-General consider the decision in the case of Abell versus Imperial Hotel (Exmouth) which apparently gravely impairs the value of the 1927 Act?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I will consider the decision, but I am not at present aware of that case.

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    STAFF (PENSIONS).
    Mr. CRAVEN-ELLISasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many of the English staff of the League of Nations are eligible for pensions; and what will be the estimated annual charge upon the Treasury?
    The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. Eden): The majority of the officials of the League of Nations of whatever nationality are members of a contributory pension fund established in 1931, to which the League contribution for 1934 amounts to 1,783,742 gold francs. Of this sum His Majesty's Government provide approximately one-tenth. Precise information as to how many of the English staff of the League are members of this fund is not available in the Foreign Office, but if my hon. Friend so desires I will cause inquiries to be made.

    CONTRIBUTIONS.
    Mr. CRAVEN-ELLISasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps, if any, are being taken to collect the arrears from the countries
    154
    which have defaulted in their payments to the League of Nations?
    Mr. EDEN: This question was publicly and thoroughly discussed last autumn by the Assembly of the League of Nations which adopted certain detailed amendments in the Financial Regulations. I am happy to be able to say that there has been a gratifying increase in the amount of the arrears collected during the first three months of this year as compared with the first quarter of 1933.
    Mr. CRAVEN-ELLIS: In the case of the League of Nations being wound up, who will be responsible for these expenses?
    Mr. HANNON: May I ask whether those nations which have not yet paid their contributions to the League of Nations are to have voting power in the Assembly and the Council?
    Mr. EDEN: That is another question, but there has been a very material improvement in the situation in the first quarter.
    Mr. HANNON: But will they still have the vote?
    Mr. EDEN: Certainly.

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Minister of Health whether any decision has been authorised disentitling from sickness benefit an insured woman unable to follow her usual occupation owing to ill-health if she attends to her normal unpaid household duties provided the state of her health permits this?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Shakespeare): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Parkinson) on the 26th March last, of which I am sending him a copy.
  Mr. MANDER: Do I understand that there is no reason why a woman in the circumstances stated should not carry on with her ordinary household duties?
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: If a woman is receiving benefit and at the same time performing a whole-time household task for which ordinarily a wage is payable,

  155
  it is difficult to substantiate a claim that she is incapable of her ordinary work and entitled to draw benefit.
  Mr. MANDER: But if no wage would be payable for it if she was not there, and if her health permitted her to do that work although she was not well enough to do her ordinary work, would she not be entitled to do it?
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: Yes, provided it was not a full day's work for which she would engage a help.
  Mr. BATEYasked the Minister of Health whether he will introduce legislation to amend the National Health Insurance Act, 1932, so as to restore medical benefit and old age pension benefit at 65 years of age to unemployed workmen?
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: This matter was fully debated during the passage of the National Health Insurance Act, 1932, and again in November last, and nothing has since transpired to call for the reopening of the question. I would, moreover, point out that the position under the Contributory Pensions Acts of the insured person who has suffered from prolonged unemployment is fully safeguarded up to the end of 1935.
  Mr. TINKER: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware of the severe hardships imposed on these classes of men, who are to all intents and purposes derelict, and ought not we to do something for them on the lines of restoring the economy cuts?
  Mr. BATEY: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this question was put down to the Prime Minister, as, in view of the Budget surplus which has been achieved since the subject was discussed in 1932, I want to know whether the Government will reconsider this matter with a view to righting this wrong to so many of the unemployed?
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The Budget surplus has nothing to do with making national health insurance non-contributory.
  Mr. BATEY: May I ask the Prime Minister to give personal attention to this matter? I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.
  Mr. THORNEasked the Minister of Health if he has received a Report from his inspector relative to a printer and a builder who appeared at the Tottenham police court and were fined for the non-payment of health and unemployment insurance contributions in respect of their employés; and whether these employés will lose any benefit rights through the default of their employers?
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The inspector has reported the conviction of the employers concerned, who were also ordered by the court to pay the arrears of contributions. Pending compliance with the magistrate's orders, it is not possible to state whether the benefits of any of the employés will be prejudiced, but in any case if any health insurance benefits should be lost through the employer's default, the employés have a statutory right to recover from the employers the amount of any benefit so lost. Any question as to unemployment benefit is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.
  Mr. THORNEasked the Minister of Health if he has received a report from his inspector in connection with the application for 176 summonses against an East London builder for offences under the National Health and Unemployment Insurance Acts; and what action he is taking in the matter?
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The inspector has reported that the summonses have been issued for hearing at an early date. As the matter is therefore sub judice, my right hon. Friend cannot properly make any statement as to the further action to be taken.

  HOUSING (TILES).
  Mr. TODDasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the retained imports of tiles in the first quarter of 1934 were 293,144 cwts. as compared with 111,046 cwts. in the corresponding period of 1933, an increase of 163.9 per cent.; and whether he will make representations to local authorities and public bodies requesting that British-made tiles should be used in all possible cases?
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The figures quoted by my hon. Friend relate to the total imports of tiles in the period mentioned.

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  My right hon. Friend has no reason to suppose that Local Authorities generally are not making use to the utmost extent practicable of goods and materials of home production, in accordance with the advice which he has already given to Local Authorities. I am sending to my hon. Friend a copy of the relevant circular.

  DEFENCE SERVICES (MEDICAL BRANCHES).
  Dr. HOWITT (for Captain ELLISTON)asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he can now announce the decisions of the Government as to the recommendations of the Warren Fisher Report on the medical branches of the defence services?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hore-Belisha): The Government have adopted the recommendations of the Committee in their application to the medical branches of the Army and Royal Air Force. As regards the Royal Navy, it has been considered necessary to modify the scheme recommended in certain particulars. The changes will take effect from to-day and details will be found in the various orders which are on the point of publication.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. ATTLEE: May I ask the Prime Minister what business he proposes to take to-day?
The PRIME MINISTER: After the Time-table Motion has been disposed of the remainder of the Sitting will be available for the consideration of the recommitted Clause 19 of the Unemployment Bill, and, in the event of there being time before Eleven o'Clock, the Government would proceed with the consideration of Orders Numbers 4 and 5 on to-day's Order Paper, namely, the remaining stages of the Post Office (Sites) Bill, and of the Land Settlement (Scotland) Bill.

BILLS REPORTED.

  EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY BILL.
  Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee B.
  Leave given to the Committee to make a Special Report.
  Special Report brought up, and read.
  Report and Special Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.

  ASSESSOR OF PUBLIC UNDERTAKINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords].
  Reported, without Amendment, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
  Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered To-morrow.

STANDING ORDERS.
Resolutions reported from the Select Committee;
1. "That, in the case of the North Lindsey Water Bill [Lords], Petition for additional Provision, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permitted to insert their additional Provision if the Committee on the Bill think fit."
2. "That in the case of the Ramsgate Corporation [Lords], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
Resolutions agreed to.

CHAIRMEN'S PANEL.
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Sir Cyril Cobb to act as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Scottish Bill (in respect of the Poor Law (Scotland) Bill); and Sir William Jenkins to act as Chairman of Standing Committee D (in respect of the Gas Undertakings Bill [Lords].
Report to lie upon the Table.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE A.
  Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they

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  had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A : Lord Apsley; and had appointed in substitution : Lord Dunglass.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Incitement to Disaffection Bill); Brigadier-General Spears; and had appointed in substitution : Mr. Petherick.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Diseases of Fish Bill [Lords]) : Lieut.-Commander Bower, Brigadier-General Clifton Brown, Mr. Conant, Sir Robert Hamilton, Major Hills, Sir Alan McLean, Mr. Neil Maclean, Sir Mervyn Manning-ham-Buller, Major Mills, and Mr. Skelton.

  SCOTTISH STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committtee; That they had added the following Ten Members to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Poor Law (Scotland) Bill): Mr. David Adams, Mr. Craven-Ellis, Colonel Crookshank, Captain Arthur Hope, Mr. Law, Mr. Munro, Mr. West Russell, Mr. Salt, Mr. Soper, and Lord Colum Crichton-Stuart.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Accrington) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Watford) Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amalgamate the South Devon and East Cornwall Hospital, Plymouth, the Royal Albert Hospital, Devonport, and the Central Hospital, Plymouth; to make provision with respect to the property and funds of the said hospitals; to provide for the incorporation of the governing body of the amalgamated hospitals; and for other purposes." [South Devon and East Cornwall Hospital, Plymouth, Royal Albert Hospital, Devon-port, and Central Hospital, Plymouth (Amalgamation, etc.), Bill [Lords].

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  SOUTH DEVON AND EAST CORNWALL HOSPITAL, PLYMOUTH, ROYAL ALBERT HOSPITAL, DEVONPORT, AND CENTRAL HOSPITAL, PLYMOUTH (AMALGAMATION, ETC.) BILL [Lords].
  Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
MINES (WORKING FACILITIES) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 109.]
CONTRACEPTIVES BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 110.]

UNEMPLOYMENT BILL (ALLOCATION OF TIME) (REPORT STAGE AND THIRD READING).
Order [19th December] Unemployment Bill (Allocation of Time), read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Order be amended as follows :
Leave out from the end of the Table, to the words 'On the conclusion of the Committee stage,' and insert :—
'(2) Report Stage.
Five allotted days shall be given to the Report stage of the Bill, and the proceedings on each allotted day shall be as shown in the second column of the following Table; and those proceedings shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion at the time shown in the third column for that day.

Table.—Report Stage.

Allotted Day.

Proceedings.

Time for bringing Proceedings to a conclusion.

P.M.

First day -

Now Clauses

7.30

Clauses 1 to 4

11.0

Second day-

Clause 5

7.30

Clauses 6 to 13 -

11.0

Third day -

Clauses 14 to 17 -

7.30

Clauses 18 to 35 -

11.0

Fourth day-

Clauses 36 to 38 -

7.30

Clauses 39 to 44 -

11.0

Fifth day

Clauses 45 to 65, new Schedules, Schedules, and any other matter necessary to bring the Reportstage to a conclusion.

11.0

(3) Third Reading.
One allotted day shall be given to the Third Reading of the Bill, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion at 11 p.m. on that day'."—[The Prime Minister.]
3.40 p.m.
The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): I would say very little to take up the time of the House on the Motion. Last Thursday I informed the House that the Government were doing their best to come to an agreement. We have decided to allot six days to the remaining stages of this Bill. We were very anxious indeed that the allotment
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should be made with the consent of all parties in the House. I suppose that that, as an ideal, cannot always be carried out, but I can assure the House that we have done our very best, and that the Table which I now propose, and which is embodied in the Motion, has been passed after very full consultation and that it represents the maximum of agreement that there can be.
The House will perhaps be pleased to hear that we did quite sincerely make the attempt on this occasion to have the Table passed by a committee representing all sections of the House. I should have liked to see the experiment tried, because I have always been in favour of a guillotine being worked in this way by a committee, the Government first of all saying how many days, in view of their programme for the whole Session, they will allot to any particular Measure, and then handing over those days to a representative committee to allot. We found insuperable difficulties on this occasion, but it may be that, by removing a certain very substantial obstacle which appeared in the course of the discussion, we may at last come to the very happy conclusion that there will be no guillotine without a committee. I can assure the House that we have gone as near to that as we possibly could on this occasion, and that the Timetable which I move and which is embodied in this Motion is the result of those negotiations.
3.43 p.m.
Mr. ATTLEE: On this side of the House we are desirous to take as little time as possible in discussing this Motion, because we want the time for the full discussion of Clause 19 which has been recommitted. We are glad that the Clause has been recommitted. There was a very large number of Clauses—a quite unusual number—which passed through Committee practically without any discussion. We think that the allocation is the best that there can be within the limits of time allowed by the Government, but that the allocation of five days is too small for the Report stage. The Committee stage showed, without any suggestion of obstruction, that a mass of very important Amendments was not discussed and that many important principles embodied in the Measure were not fully discussed.

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With regard to what the Prime Minister has said about a committee and a time-table, in our view that is a matter that should be fully discussed by the House. A committee was set up under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) which made a number of suggestions for dealing with matters of business, but we think it would be undesirable to alter the practice of the House in the middle of the stages of a Bill by applying only one of those suggestions, and that that should be done through the usual channels without the House having an opportunity of discussion. It is very desirable that the machinery of the House of Commons should be quickened, and we shall welcome an opportunity for discussing the report of the committee. In view of the fact that we consider that five days are far too few for the discussion of this very important Measure—the most important Measure that has been before the House for years—we shall oppose the Motion.
3.46 p.m.
Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: We, on these benches, on the other hand, concur in the Motion that has been made. We express our appreciation of the efforts made by the Government to meet the general convenience of the House in this matter, and we appreciate the fact that they have agreed to recommit the Bill, which is a step for which we pressed in regard to the Clause dealing with the debt. As to the desirability of having a committee for allocating such time as may be available for the stages of an important Government Bill, here again I do not find myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) who has just spoken. I think the Government were wise to suggest to the House that an experiment should be made in a particular case, and no difficulties or obstacles were raised by us to the adoption of that proposal. It would have been quite feasible for a committee to have been set up consisting of various parties to decide precisely what the allocation should be within the general Guillotine Motion in order to meet the general convenience of Members.
It is true that it is desirable that there should be changes in our procedure, and
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that the report of the committee which was presided over by the hon. Gentleman who is now Minister of Mines should receive the attention of the House on some definite occasion allotted for that purpose. On the other hand, we might well have proceeded, as this House often does proceed, by way of trial and experiment in particular cases, allowing experience to show whether the procedure adopted should be made permanent or should be modified. Having said so much, it is unnecessary for me to say more, except that we shall support the terms of the Motion now proposed to the House.
3.48 p.m.
Mr. OSWALD LEWIS: This is the second time that we have discussed a Time-table Motion in respect of the Unemployment Bill. I believe that some hon. Members hold the view that the guillotine method of closure is not the proper way to deal with the difficulties of getting a contentious Bill through Committee of the Whole House but, whether that be so or not, I think all are agreed that if we are to use the Guillotine the present method of deciding upon the time to be taken and the allocation of that time is unsatisfactory. Some very significant words were used by the Prime Minister when we were discussing the Time-table Motion before on the Bill. On 19th December of last year he said :
"It is only fair for the House to know what time the Government believe they can afford for the full discussion of this Bill through all its stages."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th December, 1933; col. 1140, Vol. 284.]
This is not the right way to approach the question of the time to be given to the Bill. It is not a question of what time the Government of the day think they can afford, but of what time is necessary for the adequate discussion of the Bill. If the present principle is to be followed, there is nothing to prevent a Government from deliberately overloading their programme and saying that all the time that they can afford for a particular Measure is so many days, that time being, in fact, grossly inadequate. Valuable as the experiment which the Prime Minister suggested might be, of taking days already decided upon and of deciding their allocation by a committee representing the different parties, I suggest that that method would not

175
really go to the root of the matter. I would urge the House to consider whether the time has not come when the question of how many days should be given to a Bill in Committee or on Report should be decided, not by the Government of the day, but by some impartial Committee of the House set up for that purpose. Until that is done, the Opposition of the day will never feel that they have been really treated fairly by the Government in respect of the allocation of time, and, while the feeling persists that they have not been treated fairly, it is obviously bad for debate in this House. I have taken the opportunity of making these remarks because it is the only chance that we get to discuss the subject.
3.51 p.m.
Captain CROOKSHANK: I should like to ask one question, in order that we may be quite clear. The Prime Minister
said that he would have liked to see this amended Time-table discussed by a Committee set up on the lines of the recommendation of the Committee on Procedure, but that on this occasion there were insuperable difficulties. I should like it to be made quite clear to myself and other Members whether that means, as was apparently suggested by what was said by the hon. Gentleman opposite, that, while the Labour party lose no opportunity of saying that they want to see the procedure of the House improved and speeded up if possible, when at last there comes a practical opportunity of adopting a very sensible suggestion they will have nothing to do with it, and that therefore their attitude on this as on so many other questions is one of sheer hypocrisy.
Question put.
The House divided : Ayes, 303; Noes, 39.
Ordered,
"That the Order be amended as follows :—
Leave out from the end of the Table, to the words 'On the conclusion of the Committee stage,' and insert :—
' (2) Report Stage.
Five allotted days shall be given to the Report stage of the Bill, and the proceedings on each allotted day shall be as shown in the second column of the following Table; and those proceedings shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion at the time shown in the third column for that day.

Table.—Report Stage.

Allotted Day.

Proceedings.

Time for bringing Proceedings to a conclusion.

P.M.

First day -

New Clauses

7.30

Clauses 1 to 4

11.0

Second day-

Clause 5- -

7.30

Clauses 6 to 13 -

11.0

Third day -

Clauses 18 to 35 -

7.30

Clauses 14 to 17 -

11.0

Fourth day-

Clauses 30 to 38 -

7.30

Clauses 39 to 44 -

11.0

Fifth day -

Clauses 45 to 65, new Schedules, Schedules, and any other matter necessary to bring the Report stage to a conclusion -

11.0

(3) Third Reading.
One allotted day shall be given to the Third Reading of the Bill, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion at 11 p.m. on that day.' "

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  UNEMPLOYMENT (RE-COMMITTED) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

  UNEMPLOYMENT (RE-COMMITTED) BILL.

    CLAUSE 19.—(Treasury advances to Unemployment Fund.)
    4.3 p.m.
    The CHAIRMAN: The first two Amendments on the Order Paper in the names of the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) and two of his hon. Friends—in page 16, line 32, after "shall," to insert "in respect of one-third of the sum total of any such advance"; and, in line 42, to leave out "two million seven hundred and fifty," and to insert "nine hundred and fifteen"—are, I think, clearly out of order, as they impose a charge. With regard to the succeeding three Amendments in the name of the right hon. Member for Hill-head (Sir R. Horne) and others—in page 17, line 1, to leave out "seven hundred
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    and fifty," and to insert "five hundred"; after "each," to insert
    "until the expiry of the last of the periods for which rates of interest were fixed by the Treasury before the commencement of this Part of this Act, and thereafter of two million pounds each";
    and, in line 24, to leave out "and one half"—I think that they can be regarded as one Amendment. As to the first two of those Amendments, I think that they are clearly in order, but with regard to the third I am not quite so certain. It is a difficult question to decide, because it depends on what would be, or might be, the result if the Bill were so amended, but at the moment I am inclined to think that the Amendment probably is in order. In those circumstances, I suggest that it would be for the convenience of the Committee, if the right hon. Gentleman so agrees, that the three Amendments could be discussed as one. In that case I must reserve my rights, and if facts are brought to my attention which may make me change my opinion with regard to the third Amendment, I shall have to deal with that accordingly.
    Mr. LAWSON: If you are calling upon these Amendments, I take it that the discussion will be within the limits of the Amendments, and, therefore, there can be no general discussion until we reach the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill"?
    The CHAIRMAN: It seems to me that the question which is raised by taking the three Amendments as one is a question which obviously needs arguments of some wide scope. I do not want to restrict unduly any discussion which may properly be said to bear upon what I take to be the avowed object of these Amendments, namely, to lighten the burden upon the Unemployment Fund. Therefore, I think that the discussion might be permitted to be a reasonably wide one, but it is quite possible that questions which should be raised on the Question of the Clause standing part, really could not be raised on these Amendments.
    Mr. LAWSON: May I suggest to you, Sir Dennis, that the trouble in the Committee and the House during the whole discussions on this Bill, and particularly in reference to this Clause, has been that we could neither discuss it generally as a sort of Second Reading Debate on the

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    Clause, nor were we quite sure of the limits? Therefore, I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman's Amendments should be strictly limited to the words of the Amendments, and that the general discussion should be taken upon the Clause standing part. Otherwise, I am afraid that, with the best will in the world, we shall find ourselves in exactly the same position as previously.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman will pardon me for saying that there is a slight mistake in what he has said. I do not think that the Committee has had any experience at all of discussion of this Clause.
    Mr. LAWSON: We had the Money Resolution.
    The CHAIRMAN: Yes, the Money Resolution, but I think the hon. Gentleman's point only confirms what I said. Obviously, the Amendments in the name of the right hon. Gentleman raise a very important point. I do not want unduly to restrict discussion, but I gather from the hon. Member who speaks for the Opposition that the Opposition desire to have an opportunity of discussing the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." That being so, if we get that opportunity in the ordinary course, as far as time is available, I think that the Opposition can do as they wish so long as they do not go beyond what are the reasonable bounds of discussion in regard to the Amendment before the Committee, and can speak on the Amendments or on the Clause, or both.
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): I take it that your Ruling does not preclude the somewhat wider scope for the discussion of the Amendment which you contemplated when you first got up, and I take it that this offers one way of indicating the views of hon. and right hon. Members upon the burden which now lies upon the fund? It seems to me that it might be difficult both for them to make their case and for me to make any case that I wanted to make in reply, without going a little beyond the actual terms of the Amendment. I venture to suggest that that would not preclude discussion of what the Opposition desires to discuss upon the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," even although it happens
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    to be touched upon on the Amendment?
    The CHAIRMAN: I think that the right hon. Gentleman has rightly interpreted what was in my mind. I said that I regarded this Amendment as one of such importance that I should not want unduly to restrict discussion upon it. In order to explain what I mean, perhaps I may put this point. There are certain Amendments which have been ruled out of order, and, obviously, there is a certain common object in the minds of hon. Members who put down those Amendments and in the minds of the right hon. Gentleman and his friends. Therefore, I had it in mind that it would not be possible to shut out from this discussion the general question of whether the burden upon the Unemployment Fund should or should not be lightened. The right hon. Gentleman said that, quite obviously, it leaves open certain points which the Opposition or any other hon. Members of the Committee may wish to raise on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," and it may be that points which they would wish to raise could be raised equally well either on the Amendment or on the Question, "That the Clause stand part." I must leave it entirely to hon. Members to make their own choice as to whether they devote their remarks mainly to the Amendment or to the Question, "That the Clause stand part."
    Captain CROOKSHANK: As you have indicated that you are going to call my right hon. Friend's Amendment next, may I ask what is happening to the Government's Amendments, because, although they do not appear on the Order Paper to-day, there are Amendments down to this Clause for the Report stage. It seems to me most extraordinary. Probably they are only drafting Amendments, but I should like some information.
    The CHAIRMAN: It is beyond me to understand what the hon. and gallant Member is talking about. I know nothing of any Amendments to this Clause except those which are on the Order Paper.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I thought you would not understand because I myself did not understand, but this morning, on glancing through the Amendments which are down for the Report stage of

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    the Bill, I found, on page 843, three Amendments to Clause 19 in the name of the Minister.
    The CHAIRMAN: I understand now that the hon. and gallant Member is trying to deal with something which does not arise on the Committee stage of this Clause.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: May I ask whether it is possible to put down Amendments to a Clause for the Report stage of a Bill when the Clause has not been disposed of in Committee, and whether, if the Amendments are to be discussed at all, they should not come on the Committee stage? The Minister ought to tell us whether they are drafting Amendments or Amendments of substance?
    The CHAIRMAN: I should like to make clear to the hon. and gallant Member that that is not a point which can be raised now. There is nothing down with regard to any Government Amendments in the Committee stage. We are now in Committee, and the Committee is concerned only with the Committee stage. I cannot answer, and it would not be in order for the hon. and gallant Member to raise questions of that kind as to the Report stage.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: Is it in order to put Amendments on the Paper for the Report stage——
    The CHAIRMAN: That is, obviously, not a point for the Chairman.
    4.14 p.m.
    Sir ROBERT HORNE: I beg to move, in page 17, line 1, to leave out "seven hundred and fifty," and to insert "five hundred."
    I am very much obliged to you, Sir Dennis, for the indication you have made as to the kind of course this Debate may follow. I think that I shall have no difficulty before I sit down in making it plain, in my general argument, that the part of the Amendment to which you have referred as being doubtful does not, in reality, transgress any of the Rules of Order.
    In moving the Amendment which stands in my own name and the names of several of my colleagues who represent all sections
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    of the House which support His Majesty's Government, I may say that we are a few only of a very large number in this House who hold similar views with regard to the incidence of the debt upon the Unemployment Fund. In the course of the Budget Debate, we thought, and we still think, that it is inequitable to fix upon the insurance scheme and upon those insured persons who, if I may use the phrase, played the insurance game according to the rules, the whole burden of the debt, much of which, it is not contested, was due to attempts by various Governments not to apply insurance regulations but to succour people who had fallen out of insurance. We also thought and still think that inasmuch as the contributions to the Unemployment Fund were considerably raised in the time of the emergency of 1931 it would be appropriate that as soon as means were available that burden should at least be attempted to be mitigated for two reasons. First because these contributions were fixed with a figure of 3,000,000 unemployed in mind whereas the figure is now down nearer to 2,000,000 and secondly because the present rates are a serious charge upon industry. Moreover we thought then and still think that it was more important to devote the realised surplus of last year's Budget to the reduction of this debt where its influence would be both penetrating and powerful than to devote it to an exiguous reduction of the great mass of debt which the country has to bear where its effect has not nearly so much significance.
    But, of course, we entirely realise that there are other opinions to the contrary. I know that these are genuinely and sincerely held and in particular they are held by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    To-day so far as our major proposition is concerned we are entirely in his tender and gentle hands. The surplus of last year's Budget has disappeared. It has gone to the payment of debt. It can no longer be called back. It is dissipated in the fortunes of the country. It is true that you might by borrowing raise another sum to put in its place but the surplus has gone and so far as the present Bill is concerned you could only apply any money so borrowed for the purposes of this Bill if you brought in a new Financial Resolution and passed it

    185
    through its Second Reading, Committee and Report stages and thereafter based a Clause of the Bill upon it. But in this connection there is one great factor that is clear to all of us. The only person who can borrow for such a purpose is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Indeed he is the only person who can suggest borrowing for such a purpose. If anyone of us was to make a Motion our words would immediately be choked back in our throats by the action of the Chairman, because a private Member cannot make a Motion which involves a charge upon the revenue. Such a Motion can only come by a very laudable and useful arrangement in our financial system from the Government Bench. Are we in that situation entirely powerless to achieve anything at all to mitigate a situation which to some extent many of us deplore? I do not think we are entirely powerless. The problem can be tackled from a different aspect. We cannot achieve what we desire, we cannot achieve even anything big but we can, I think, achieve something : and it is towards obtaining that more moderate result that these Amendments are directed. The general idea of the Amendments is that we should attack this problem from the side of reducing the annual charges for sinking fund and interest on the Unemployment Fund.
    I now beg the attention of the Committee to the Clauses of the Bill dealing with that matter in order that I may explain exactly what I desire to reach. It is provided in Clause 19 that there shall be paid towards the annual charges on the Unemployment Debt in each year two instalments. The Committee will find the relevant provisions at the top of page 17. Two instalments of £2,750,000 each are to be paid in each year and it is provided that nothing in the Clause shall be construed as preventing the application towards the discharge of debt of sums additional to these instalments and that the appropriate rate of interest to which reference has been made in a previous part of the Clause shall mean :
    "as respects each advance, the rate of interest which has been fixed by the Treasury, before the commencement of this part of this Act, for the period for which it was fixed, and after that period the rate of three and one-half per cent. per annum."
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    At this stage perhaps it is as well that I should make an explanation of the facts which I obtained in answer to a question that I put yesterday. This debt is to a considerable degree at present in the form of documents granted by the Treasury to the National Commissioners of debt and these operate only for five-year periods. I think the last date is approximately in 1938, and the average rate of interest upon the debt until these documents come to an end is 4⅝ths per cent. These arrangements have been made by the undertaking of contractual obligations. The National Debt Commissioners have borrowed the money which they lent to the Unemployment Fund from the Post Office and the Trustee Savings Banks upon definite terms as to the rate of interest to be paid. The Post Office and the Trustee Savings Banks in their turn have based the interest which they allow to their depositors upon the rates that they are to obtain from the Unemployment Fund. Although I should have liked to do something to get rid of this high rate of interest in the period immediately in front of us, I do not propose to make any such suggestion for two very good reasons. In the first place, my suggestions would be out of order, because it would undoubtedly involve an additional charge upon the revenue. The Consolidated Fund has guaranteed these payments of interest, and if you lessened the rate of interest you would be putting an additional charge on the Treasury. The second reason, which I regard as even more important, is that I would do nothing to weaken contractual obligations of that kind incurred to the Post Office and the Trustee Savings Banks. It is one of the very things that we fought the Election of 1931 to guard against. I think these are obligations to which the House must undoubtedly pay attention, and it must see that they are fully implemented. Accordingly, I cannot make any suggestion that the rate of interest can be completely dealt with until all these documents have completed their full run, but after that I suggest that the rate of interest upon the debt should not be 3½ but 3 per cent. That in no way involves creating a charge upon the revenue. The rate of interest that may be arranged now is one that must of course be acquiesced in by the National Debt Commissioners. If they choose to lend at

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    3 per cent., there is no extra charge involved of any kind. As the answer to my question yesterday disclosed the interest which the Unemployment Fund pays is paid directly to the National Commissioners of Debt. There is accordingly involved nothing at all that will bring upon the Treasury any increased charge, Of course there would be behind that—if any doubt still remained—the fact which is known to everybody that the Treasury may be able to borrow money at a reduced rate. If they chose to meet this debt by short-term borrowing, they would be able to borrow their money at very much less than 3 per cent. and make a profit. So that upon every ground it would be impossible to rule this Amendment out of order.
    Why do I say that this rate of 3½ per cent. should be reduced? Even upon a much longer term debt than this is ever likely to be and indeed one that can only be redeemed at the option of the Government, to wit, the 3½ per cent. Conversion Loan, if you look at the quotations on the Stock Exchange you will find that the Government are borrowing that money at 3½ per cent. and the stock stands in the market at a price of nearly 104. It is accordingly obvious that this rate of 3½ per cent. is too high. What rate ought it to be? That is not a matter upon which I choose to dogmatise very strongly, but if you take a 20 years loan as a parallel you will find that today the Government 3 per cent. loan which is due to be paid at latest in 1953 stands at slightly over par—I think about 100½. Accordingly a 3 per cent. rate for a loan to the Unemployment Fund does not seem in any way too generous.
    I accordingly move as my first Amendment that the rate of interest in this Clause should be reduced from 3½ to 3 per cent. That would, I believe, involve a saving of £500,000 in the present year. Probably the saving would decrease each year as the amount of the debt decreased, but at present half a million is something substantial for which we ought to be grateful. If, for example, the Chancellor had taken the £30,000,000 surplus of last year and applied it in payment of a portion of the debt upon the Unemployment Fund, at an interest rate of 3 per cent., £900,000 a year would have been saved. But since we are deprived
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    of that particular remedy, it would seem at least a substantial mitigation of the burden on the fund if we were able to save £500,000 in the present year and thereafter a sum not quite so much but certainly always appreciable. I accordingly move my Amendment in that sense.
    The CHAIRMAN: There is one thing I should like to make clear to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. When I said that these three Amendments were in effect one, I meant that they should be discussed together. I take it that the Committee will agree that if the whole discussion is taken on the formal question of the first Amendment in the name of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, the other Amendment should only be divided upon if necessary and should not be discussed, the whole of the discussion on the three Amendments to be taken on the first Amendment.
    Sir R. HORNE: My Amendments are all part of one scheme, although it would obviously be possible to pass one or other of the Amendments without passing all.
    The CHAIRMAN: We could have a discussion on them all.
    Sir R. HORNE: As far as I am concerned and for the purpose of my argument I present them as one scheme. I come to what is involved in the first Amendment, which I think logically is better taken after the one which I have already discussed. The proposal in my first Amendment is that the two instalments of £2,750,000 in each year should be replaced by the figure of £2,500,000. That is to say that you would bring down the amount which had to be found in each year for sinking fund and interest charges by £500,000. I think that there is an obviously good ground, which must spring to the mind at once, for the suggestion which I am now making. The figure of £2,750,000 by two instalments in each year was fixed at a time when the debt was £115,000,000. The debt is no, longer at that level. At the time of the Budget it had already gone down to £105,000,000 or £106,000,000, and I am informed, although the Chancellor of the Exchequer knows very much better than I do, that by the month of July it will have fallen to £100,000,000. Accordingly we are dealing with a more modest proposition than

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    that with which people were dealing when they drew up this Bill, and it is a very obvious reason for mitigating the amount of the charge which you are going to put upon the fund. My object, as the Committee will readily see, has been all the way to bring nearer the point of time at which the Statutory Committee will be able to propose to reduce the contributions.
    Mr. MAXTON: Or increase the benefits.
    Sir R. HORNE: I would remind my hon. Friend who makes that interruption that we have restored the benefit to the amount at which it stood at the time of the emergency in 1931, but we have still to restore the rate of contributions. My hon. Friend perhaps does not remember that in 1931 the workmen's contribution was raised from 7d. to 10d. and the employers' from 8d. to 10d., and the contribution of the Government from 7½d. to 10d. That is one of the sacrifices which still remains to be dealt with. Obviously it imposes a burden upon industry which is worth consideration. What does it amount to? The extra burden imposed on employer and workmen in 1931, leaving out the contribution of the Government, was £10,000,000 a year. That sum means a great deal to industry at the present time, particularly when it is a form of impost which remains whether business is prospering or not. It does not depend upon profit. If you only employ a man you pay : employment is the thing which is penalised. Accordingly it is of the first necessity that we should get the rate of contributions down. Is it nothing that the workmen's contribution should be raised by 3d. per week? I think that the Committee will agree that this is a matter which ought to be dealt with as soon as ever means are available to deal with it. This is one of the ways I suggest that mitigation might take place now, and the relief to the contributors come afterwards. That is the point I am endeavouring to make. If you are able to reduce the annual amount which you have to pay to sinking fund and interest obviously you have the fund in a very much better position from the point of view of the reduction of contributions.
    There occurs, as one sees in this Clause, a proviso that the Statutory Committee
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    may decide to devote more to the payment of debt than the amount prescribed in the Clause, and perhaps it would seem logical that I should append to my Amendment a suggestion that that proviso should be deleted, and that the Statutory Committee should not be able to take more than the specified amount, for this purpose. The reason why I did not put that forward is because, if the account which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave us of the rate at which he anticipates this debt may be paid off proves to be accurate and his anticipations are justified, you may very easily have a situation in which the Statutory Committee will be able to do both things. They will both be able to make some reduction of the amount of contribution and at the same time contribute more to the paying off of debt than is stipulated for in the Clause. I hope indeed, that that may be so. If the debt is being paid off at the rate that has been rendered possible during the course of the last 12 months, that is an anticipation which anyone of us may fondly cherish. Accordingly I do not propose to suggest that the proviso should be deleted, believing and—I hope that I am justified in my belief—that the Statutory Committee will in all the circumstances, see that they have a duty to perform with relation to the reduction of the contribution before they proceed to deal too generously with the paying off of debt by sums in excess of the compulsory amounts which are stipulated in the Clause.
    I think that I have now expounded the full effects of the Amendments which I propose except for one other point. We suggest that when the period of contractual obligations finishes and the new rate of interest begins, a similar diminution should at the same time be applied to the Sinking Fund; and we propose that the Sinking Fund should then have devoted to its payments in two instalments each year £2,000,000 instead of £2,500,000. It is obvious that if your rate of interest has come down to 3 per cent. it does not require nearly so large an instalment to enable the Government to meet the charges on the fund. Accordingly, that forms part of this catena of Amendments, first that the amounts to be applied to the instalment payments should be at the rate of £2,500,000 each half-year instead of £2,750,000; second, that when the rate

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    of interest has come down to 3 per cent., as we hope, the amount to be applied to the instalment payments should be £2,000,000 instead of £2,500,000; and in the third place, that there should be substituted for 3½ per cent. in the rate of interest a figure of 3 per cent. I hope that I have made the Amendment clear to the Committee, and I suggest that it is one which in all the circumstances is fully justified. It involves no extra charges, but on the other hand it performs one great service which I am sure the Committee would like to see performed, and that is, to mitigate the charges which exist on the Unemployment Fund and give an earlier opportunity of reducing the burden on the contributors to unemployment insurance.
    4.41 p.m.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: I and my Friends on these benches will certainly support the Amendment which has been proposed by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) and his Friends. I do not wish to dissent in any important matter from anything that he has said in recommending the Amendment to the Committee. I cannot help feeling, however, that the Amendment which he proposes would, if carried, go a very little way to effect the major purposes which he has in view or to bring about that substantial relief of the fund that he would have been able to do if the rules of the House and indeed the condition under which this discussion is taking place, had allowed him to make proposals which would have had a much greater effect on the interests of industry and of the unemployed. I make no quarrel with the very salutary rule which prevents a private Member or anybody save the Government from coming to the House with a proposition which places a charge upon the Exchequer, although I certainly think that in this instance it has prevented the moving of an Amendment which would have been in accordance with the wishes of the House and also, I think, with the wishes of the country. I do not propose to pursue that matter any further.
    There are many grave and important reasons why Amendments should be made or why steps should be taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce the emergency levy which was placed upon the fund in 1931. I think
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    there is a general feeling growing that something less than justice has been done in that the benefits have been restored largely as the result of maintaining the emergency levy upon industry, and upon the employed at the rate of 10d. per week. There are possibly many disadvantages in having an Unemployment Bill like this before Parliament for such a long period of time, but there is one advantage. It has enabled informed public opinion to take effect with regard to the various provisions of the Bill. Opinion throughout the country gradually developed and became unanimous on the subject of the restoration of the cuts. Informed opinion from the day of the introduction of the Bill and its Second Reading has been unanimous in regard to what was called the old Clause 18, and which is now Clause 19. From the very initial discussions upon the Bill, informed public opinion has become unanimous that something should be done to remove the burdens which were placed upon the Insurance Fund under Clause 19. I have very clearly in mind a statement made by the Minister of Labour early in his Second Reading speech when he was dealing with the confusion into which the fund had got owing to the heavy liabilities which had arisen, and in which he said that a state of things had arisen which could not be maintained by any Insurance Fund whatever. The effect of Clause 19 is to make the Insurance Fund endure something which clearly no Insurance Fund ought to have been asked to endure or sustain, or could sustain.
    Opinion with regard to this matter has indeed been formidable, and it has been unanimous. The "Times", the "Manchester Guardian," the "Economist," the "Spectator," journals varying widely in their outlook, have been unanimous that something should be done to give this relief. In this House we have had speeches from all quarters urging that something should be done to alleviate the burden. The right hon. Member for Hillhead said something about the burden upon industry. Indeed it is a very formidable matter. This country spends more money on its social services than any other country in the world. We spend more on unemployment insurance than any other country. I do not state that as a matter of criticism or objection, for I take pride in the fact.

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    But that does not do away with the fact that at the present time it all means a very heavy charge upon industry. It is, moreover, a charge on industry at a time when industry requires all the help it can get. There are some reasons for believing that the recovery of trade which is taking place is due to causes some of which are transitory, and every little help at the present time the whole country will welcome.
    The right hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills) said nothing less than the truth when, speaking in connection with the Budget, he appealed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do the generous thing because he felt that that was what the country wished him to do in that particular regard. It is very important that something should be done, even if it is only the small measure which can be achieved under this Amendment. It is true that it is not the only possible alternative. If the rules will allow me I will make one or two suggestions which might be taken into consideration. There is an even more important reason for reducing the contributions under this Bill than any which has so far been brought to the notice of the Committee.
    The Minister of Labour, and indeed the Government as a whole, have been at very great pains to ensure the continuity and the integrity of the Unemployment Insurance Fund proper under Part I. I certainly agree with them in their anxiety to do everything they can to keep the fund upon a solvent and self-supporting basis, but it is quite clear that from the moment when Part II of the Bill comes into operation the contributions which employer and employed will be called upon to pay every week will assume a very different aspect, having regard to the desirability of maintaining a solvent and permanent contributory system with fixed payments. From the moment that Part II begins to operate, if it carries out the duties prescribed for it, charged with the duty of relieving all the needs of the unemployed man who comes under it, including his rent, under a system from which the Poor Law stigma has been removed, a system in which, as we have been assured, the man who draws benefit will be as good a citizen as the man who draws benefit under Part I, a system under which the highest level of benefit prescribed under the contributory scheme in Part I will not be the ceiling of benefit but the ground
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    floor, a system in which benefits will be given over and above the fixed benefit laid down in Part I, the Committee will readily see that in the mind of the unemployed men the question will arise, "Is it worth my while to go on paying 10d. a week in order to get perhaps a lower amount of benefit than a friend going down to the same Employment Exchange, and very likely to the same counter, who has really no stamp record and no industrial record at all worth speaking of, whereas I for years have been making my contributions and am now compelled to pay an emergency levy of 10d. in order to obtain this benefit?"
    Where is the attraction of that scheme? How is it going to continue? How is it going to be possible to administer it? Would not the same question present itself to the mind of the employer? He sees men going to the exchange and drawing allowances to which there has been no deterrent in any shape or form. There is to be no stigma. The Prime Minister assured us at Seaham that the means test in future was to be humanised or administered in such a way that it was not to be a deterrent to a man seeking benefit. I am driven therefore to the conclusion that unless there is some catch in Part II——
    Mr. ANEURIN BEVAN: Obviously there is a catch.
    Mr. WHITE: I am stating the Government case and accepting the Government's statements at their face value. I have, perhaps, said enough to convince the Committee that there is from that aspect an urgent need to do something, and, I would say, something much more drastic. I am told that it cannot be done now. But the matter is in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and he can do it with the assent of the House. There is no question about that. We cannot do it; we cannot table any suggestion. But from that point of view, from the point of view of social justice and the restoration of the cuts, from the point of view of the vital importance to industry and the not unimportant matter of the preservation of the contributory scheme under Part I, it is essential that something should be done. I do not think any Member of the Committee can fail to be driven to the conclusion that

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    it is inevitable and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer must take some steps. If he cannot take any other step let him at least accept this Amendment.
    Here I am a little in doubt as to whether I shall be strictly in order, but I think that with a little ingenuity there are other ways of dealing with the matter. My right hon. Friend is proceeding on the principle of reducing the charge on the debt. There are other ways in which that can be done. The finance of the Bill is based upon an assumption of a certain number of unemployed on the live register. If my right hon. Friend were to justify his optimism and to assume that there would be another 100,000 less on the live register, that would give him a basis of £3,000,000 to £4,000,000 more in the fund, and, utilising that, he would be able to come to some different arrangement which would go perhaps even further than the suggestion of the Mover of this Amendment. He might raise the contribution of the State to 1s. and reduce the contribution of employers and employed forthwith to 9d. That would cost him about £4,000,000. But it is important that we should aim at a reasonable contribution for unemployment insurance benefit. I think that for such a contribution at the present time we should keep in our minds 6d. for the employer and 6d. for the employed.
    If we cannot go all the way now, we should at least go some of the way. On the other hand it might well be that a sliding scale of contributions could be devised upon the principle that the contributors, the employers and employed, should never bear less or more than one-third of the charge of the debt which exists on the fund; that is one-third together. That is not a matter which would present very great difficulty, and I have no doubt that the Treasury with their resources would be well able to devise something of the kind. It is quite true that in connection with the Budget statements these arguments have been stated before. But I have been struck by the lack of answer from the Government. To the right hon. Member for Hillhead there has been really no answer. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in reply to the right hon. Gentleman's very powerful speech, said : "Oh, it is the customary thing and the orthodox
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    system to repay a debt when money has been borrowed." That is indeed a proposition from which no one would dissent in a general way. But in this case, as has been pointed out by more than one speaker, this is the repayment of debt, and it is moreover a repayment of debt which is running at a rate of interest higher than that of any other Government scheme except the Five per cent. Conversion Loan.
    Then there has really been no effective answer given to the economic and social arguments which have been put forward against the general proposition under Clause 19, that this debt should be a charge upon the fund. We unfortunately could not move an Amendment which was devised to give effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission. It is true that the Royal Commission, after very mature consideration, said it was fair that employers and employed should bear some portion of the repayment of this debt. But I was always struck, in reading that portion of the report, by one observation which was made. The Commission said : "We have had in mind the immediate necessities of the Exchequer." It is not unreasonable to assume that if the Royal Commission were reconsidering this matter, if, for instance, the Chairman of the Royal Commission had been asked to give advice on the matter, the Commission might very well have come to a very different determination from the recommendation which they made at the time the report was issued. The Royal Commission did make that recommendation, which I think, on the whole, recommends itself to the common sense and fairness of the country, and I think the Committee should be satisfied with nothing less. I think it is the allocation of the debt recommended by the Royal Commission that the Committee would wish to see put into the Bill.
    I have thought about this matter a good deal, and I do not see any flaws in the arguments introduced by some of my hon. Friends in all quarters of the House. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, rebutting this suggestion the first time it was made, said he objected to the proposal
    "because it seems to me to encourage that slovenly sort of idea that if you put a charge on the State, nobody is going to have to pay it. I cannot conceive a worse way of starting a new fund on a self-supporting basis than to suggest that it does

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    not matter what money the fund runs up in the way of debts, because in the end the State will bear it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th December, 1933, cols. 1355–6, Vol. 283.]
    That is an observation with which I am in complete agreement, but I would suggest to the Committee that it is not applicable in the present case, because His Majesty's Government have devoted themselves with great ingenuity and care to the setting up of a Statutory Committee whose one object is to keep the Insurance Fund under constant and vigilant supervision and to see that there shall be nothing done which will allow it to get into debt or to approach in any way the state of insolvency or difficulty at which it had arrived before the emergency legislation of 1931. I sincerely hope my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have regard to the important and weighty arguments which have been addressed to him from all quarters of the House and that he will see his way not merely to accept the Amendment of my right hon. Friend, but to do something far more substantial, because that is what I think the country expects.
    5.3 p.m.
    Lieut.-Colonel CHARLES KERR: It is with some trepidation that I intervene, in view of the two very able speeches that we have had on these Amendments. The Amendments on the Paper are aimed at helping the fund, and I beg my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be sympathetic in considering them. What is one of the reasons why this Clause is in the Bill at all? It is well known that during a certain period—I want to be as non-controversial as possible—there was a large number of people who received transitional payment who ought not to have had it, and that undoubtedly swelled the debt on the fund. I feel that, that being so, it is very hard on those who have, so to speak, played the game and contributed to the fund that their interests should be adversely affected in any way through that fact, and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will bear that in mind in considering these Amendments. My right hon. Friend the Member for Billhead (Sir R. Horne), who moved the Amendment, seemed to suppose that there was no hope that this 4⅝ per cent. should be in any way reduced at the present time. I have read the answer that was given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury
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    yesterday, and I am wondering whether, behind those words, there is not a doubt that something might be done. He said :
    "The average rate of interest on the debt now outstanding is for the time being 4⅝ per cent."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th April, 1934; col. 31, Vol. 289.]
    What does "for the time being" mean? Does it mean that the arrangements that have been made for the money that has been borrowed at various times for five years have got to go on definitely, each borrowing, for five years? We have had conversion loans and we have had the paying off of debt and the re-issue of loans at a lower rate, and I am wondering whether it is possible now, in view of this very high rate of interest and of the fact that the Government can borrow very easily at 3 per cent., to pay off some of these outstanding debts earlier than the exact length of time for which they have been borrowed and, as I say, make a new loan at a lower rate. When we consider that it is the Government borrowing from one pocket and lending to another, because that is what it really is—it would be so in a business—I feel that something of this nature, in view of the state of the money market, ought to be considered and might be possible.
    The rate that is paid by the Post Office Savings Bank and so on is only 2½ per cent. There is a tremendous difference between that and 4⅝per cent., and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will bear that in mind and see whether, in spite of what has been said in the Budget and in spite of what has been arranged—I take it that the Government, in a matter of this sort, are all-powerful—this 4⅝ per cent. cannot in some way be reduced at once. Behind all this—I am speaking now for myself—I feel that we ought to aim at some comprehensive insurance scheme which would embrace many more things than unemployment only, such as pensions and so on. I do not know whether I am getting out of order, but that is what is at the back of my mind. In this reconstruction of all insurance, I feel there is a great aim that we all have at the back of our minds, a great extension of the general idea of insurance; and with those few words I support most heartily the Amendment so ably moved by my right hon. Friend.
    5.9 p.m.
    Mr. JAMES REID: In my view, the question of principle, which will later fall

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    to be discussed on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," is not involved in any of these Amendments. My mind has fluctuated to some extent on that question of principle. There are very powerful arguments for the view put forward by the Royal Commission, and there are also very powerful arguments, which have not been developed but have been indicated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a contrary direction, and in order to support this Amendment, it does not seem to me in the least necessary that I should have made up my mind one way or the other on the general question of principle, as to whether the whole debt should be imposed on the fund or a part of it assumed by the Exchequer. For the purpose of this Amendment, and indeed for the purpose of the Measure as a whole, I have assumed that the Chancellor's decision is final—I am not inclined to dissent from it too violently—and that the fund is to bear the whole debt, but let us see whether that principle is in any way in conflict with any of the Amendments which appear on the Paper in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hill-head (Sir R Horne) and others.
    When the Bill was drafted, the debt was £115,000,000. I do not know whether the exact rate of interest at that time has been published, but the Chancellor has himself said that 18 months ago £5,500,000, namely, the instalment proposed in the Bill, was required for interest alone, and accordingly, unless there had been some fall before the Bill was introduced, it is plain that in the first year, if things had remained the same as last autumn, there would have been no sinking fund provision at all and the £5,500,000 would all have been required for the purpose of paying interest.
    Now let us take the present position. We know that the debt is in the neighbourhood of £106,000,000, and we know that the average interest now payable is 4⅝ per cent., and, if my arithmetic is right, that means that if things remained in the position in which they are at this moment, the interest charge would be £4,900,000 per annum. Therefore, the instalment which we propose—leaving in the first year the somewhat negligible sinking fund of £100,000—in the altered circumstances produces exactly the same
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    result as the instalment which the Government proposed in the circumstances of last autumn. We do not ask that that instalment should be altered for a period of four to five years from the present date. Next year a certain amount of the high interest on the debt will have been paid off, and a certain amount of that will have been re-borrowed at 3 per cent. or 3½ per cent. Accordingly, this year there will be considerably more than £100,000 to put towards the sinking fund, and by the time the last of those loans runs out there will be over £1,000,000 per annum to put to sinking fund. That seems to me to put it very much in the same position as the fund would have been in if the circumstances had remained unaltered since the Bill was first introduced.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If I understood my hon. Friend correctly, he suggested that the £5,500,000 at the time when the Bill was framed and introduced represented interest alone. If that was what he said, I think he is under a misapprehension. The phrase of mine to which he referred was merely a quotation from the Report of the Royal Commission, who stated that at the time they made their report £5,500,000 was required for interest alone.
    Mr. REID: I thought I had explained it, but perhaps I have been rather too brief. I intended to say that 18 months ago £5,500,000 was required for interest alone. I have no figures. I have not been able to discover the average rate of interest in October last, but it certainly was not less, I take it, than the 4⅝ per cent. which is the average to-day, and if I multiply £115,000,000 by even the figure of 4⅝ per cent., which includes, as one can see from published statements, a certain amount of money borrowed recently at 3½ per cent., I find that the amount of interest required for £115,000,000 is £5,300,000. Even if there has been no fall in the rate of interest between October last and the present date the initial interest charge contemplated when the Bill was drafted must have been at least £5,300,000, whereas the initial interest charge required now is only £4,900,000. Accordingly, on any method of calculation, the interest alone requires £400,000 per annum less in the present circumstances than it required in the circumstances of October last. Therefore, I am entitled to say that the first

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    Amendment merely brings up to date the principle which the Government themselves enunciated in October last.
    The whole question which we have to discuss this afternoon can be stated very shortly. Is it desirable that the fund should pay large instalments and pay off its debt quickly, or is it desirable that the fund should pay smaller instalments and pay off the debt more slowly? I have not been able to calculate the exact figures, but I should imagine that if you take the present £106,000,000 of debt and apply the £5,500,000 instalment to it, you will pay off the debt in something like 30 years. The exact figure can be calculated, but it is certainly less than 40 years, whereas the Royal Commission recommended 65 years. It seems to me that it is better to achieve the results which we all desire by way of the restoration of the 1931 position at the expense of a somewhat prolonged period of repayment, rather than incur a higher burden, which will not benefit this generation, but will only benefit the people who will be living in the period of 30 to 60 years hence. It is those people the Government are trying to benefit. They are not benefiting the present members of the fund and they are not even benefiting themselves, because they are not benefiting the Budget, so far as I can see.
    It is obvious that if a larger instalment is insisted upon it will not be available for the Chancellor of the Exchequer next year for the purpose of spending on, say, more aeroplanes, but it will have to be applied towards the reduction of the debt. It will not be available for the general purposes of the Budget. Therefore, it is not as if the question were whether we are on the one hand seeking to benefit the fund, and making it more difficult to restore the allowances to the Income Tax payer, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer obviously cannot use the fund's money to give to the taxpayer. That would be impossible. The fund's money must be used for paying off the fund's debt. Let us leave out of mind the question that this money which the Government are getting over and above what we think they should get can be applied to ulterior objects. It cannot be applied to the restoration of allowances, to Supplementary Estimates or to an annual rise in such things as pensions. It must be applied to the reduction of
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    this debt, and nothing else. Therefore, the sole argument between us is, is it better from the point of view of the fund and the country that the fund should pay off its obligations quickly or slowly. I can see no other point involved in any of the three Amendments.
    I come to the second Amendment. That Amendment proposes that when the rate of interest falls from 4⅝, which is the rate at present, to 3½ per cent. as the Bill proposes, or to 3 as we propose, the annual instalment should fall by £1,000,000. The annual saving as between this date and 1938, when all the five year notes have expired, the saving in interest will be considerably over £1,000,000, even if the third Amendment is not accepted. If we accept the 3⅛ per cent. the fall in interest will be 1½ per cent. on £106,000,000, which amounts to a considerable and appreciable excess over £1,000,000. Therefore, there will still be quite a reasonable Sinking Fund available in five years from now even if the instalment then payable is reduced to £4,000,000. The sum available for Sinking Fund will, of course, grow from year to year as the rate of interest payable on the debt falls. It may be that the figures which we propose would mean a very long period of amortisation, perhaps 50, 60, 70 or 80 years, but it does not seem to matter very much from the point of view of the stability of the fund or, the credit of the country whether the period of amortisation is 30 years, 50 or 70 years. We are paying off our National Debt in 30 years and yet the credit of the country is second to none in the world. Why should not the credit of the fund be equally good if the debt is being paid off at a slow rate?
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer recognises that in the present circumstances it would be highly injudicious to pay off the National Debt at any rate except by way of such surpluses as he can gather. Equally, would it not be highly injudicious in respect of the fund to pay off the debt by annual instalment? Would not the better way be to take chance windfalls in the same way that the Chancellor of the Exchequer takes chance windfalls by way of surplus to pay off the National Debt? I should like to see the Committee in a position where they can, if they want, accelerate the amortisation of the debt. If they come to a prosperous series of years then no doubt they would pay off

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    the full £5,500,000 and perhaps more, while on the other hand if they come to a year which is not so good, obviously, it will be better to keep down the payment of debt for that year rather than have to stir up trouble by cutting down benefits or increasing contributions. This will give a measure of elasticity. In a bad year if the Committee are entitled to reduce the payment of debt for that year they could maintain the benefits and contributions at the old level, but if they are under a hard-and-fast rule as to the payment of debt then they will have to go through the trouble of altering either the benefits or the contributions.
    It would be very much better that the payment towards debt should fluctuate than that the benefits or the contributions should fluctuate. We are, however, talking about a somewhat remote future in this matter. Under our Amendment the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to obtain almost as much for the next five years as he is asking for in the Bill. It is only after the five years have elapsed that there is any serious discrepancy between the amount that the Chancellor of the Exchequer asks for and the amount which the Amendment proposes. The immediate discrepancy is only £500,000 and the ultimate discrepancy is £1,500,000, a considerable sum. I do not want to detain the House by repeating the arguments in favour of the statement that it is worth saving £1,500,000, even if it means prolonging the payment of the debt for another 30 years.
    5.25 p.m.
    Mr. MAITLAND: I do not intend to follow my hon. Friend in discussing the Amendments in detail, but I should like to thank my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) for the very clear statement he made and the lucid way in which he made his case. May I bring to the notice of the House one or two matters that were in the minds of the Royal Commission in regard to the circumstances in which the debt was created. On all sides in this Debate has been shown a desire to maintain the solvency of our insurance scheme and also to put it on a self-supporting basis. When the Royal Commission were dealing with this aspect of the unemployment insurance question they made the observation
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    that if the scheme is to be self-supporting it must provide for benefits and the cost of administration out of its own resources. On the question of solvency they remarked that no scheme could claim to be solvent whilst it had a debt of £115,000,000.
    The debt of £115,000,000 is a debt arising over a period, roughly, of 11 years, from July, 1921, to March, 1932, and there can be no question that some portion of that debt was created by the giving of extended benefits, uncovenanted benefits and transitional payments which were outside the original scope of the Unemployment Insurance scheme. That definitely represented the action of successive Governments in dealing with an abnormal situation through the machinery of the Unemployment Fund. Therefore, to some extent the action of the State itself is responsible for the amount of the debt. Benefit was paid to persons who had fallen out of insurance or had forfeited their insurance rights in one form or another. So far as I can see, the argument that no fund can expect that a debt in respect of its work should be transferred to the Exchequer, is plausible, but not quite complete. Another argument equally plausible, that no Government should shoulder obligations upon a fund beyond the objects for which the fund was created or in excess of the restrictions originally imposed is likewise incomplete. If these conditions were rigidly adhered to it would prevent any necessary alterations based upon wisdom and accruing from experience. That would surely be unfortunate.
    The Royal Commission recommended that two-thirds of the charge of Debt Redemption should be borne by the Exchequer. I have always thought that the best answer from the Exchequer point of view to that suggestion is that of the £115,000,000, £76,000,000 represented the accumulation of debt over two years from April, 1930, wholly attributable to insurance benefits when the whole cost of transitional benefit was also borne by the State. It is just as well to bear in mind in considering the arguments that are being advanced to-day, that the Exchequer has made definite contributions over and above the original statutory commitments, and that it is not a question of the Exchequer trying to get rid

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    of liability. We must bear in mind that the Exchequer is responsible for one-third of the contributions to the fund and also that the Exchequer has recently made a grant amounting to £3,000,000 per annum to the local authorities in respect of public assistance.
    It is well that we should have these facts in mind. Suppose that the £31,000,000 surplus was applied as suggested by the right hon. Gentleman—in reduction of this debt—and that the period was extended to 65 years instead of the 40 years, as proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if that was done it would mean an annual charge for interest and debt redemption of about £3,000,000. The proposals of the right hon. Gentleman are very modest, they do not go nearly as far as was recommended by the Royal Commission; and I personally do not think we should go as far as the commission suggested. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot accept the Amendments of the right hon. Member for Hillhead I would ask him to consider extending the period of 40 years to that recommended by the Royal Commission. That would cover a period of 65 years, and the rate of interest upon which they based their calculations was 3½ per cent. If he could accept their recommendation with regard to the term the effect would be that the solvency of the fund would be undoubted, the annual payments would be reduced, and it would also be possible, at an earlier stage, to review the question of the contributions or consider an increase in benefits.
    There is one more thing I should like to say. There is something more than the sheer aspect of pounds, shillings and pence involved. The question has a psychological aspect. There is in the mind of a large number of people who are engaged in occupations under the unemployment scheme a feeling that they should not be expected to bear the whole cost of the fund. I agree that the exact proportion represented by actions of the Government, in the way of extended benefits and charges which have been involved by heavier calls made on the fund, is a matter of opinion, but in the interests of the members of the unemployment scheme and the desire of the Committee to maintain it in a state of solvency, to make it beyond all question
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    self-supporting, I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can revise these proposals in the spirit in which so many national problems have been met during the last few years. I ask him to consider a revision of his first proposal, especially having regard to the changed financial considerations and the psychological aspect of the matter. No one desires to convey to those who pay unemployment contributions week by week that we are not prepared to meet their peculiar difficulties in the same national spirit as those in which other national difficulties have been faced.
    5.35 p.m.
    Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH: An extremely interesting speech on the exact effect of the Amendments before the Committee has been delivered by the hon. Member for Stirling (Mr. Reid), and I am sure we are indebted to him for explaining the matter so clearly. At the same time, if I thought there was anything in it but a question of paying off by large or small instalments I should not regard the Amendment with the same amount of interest as I do at present. What I value is the principle, which the hon. Member for Stirling said he was ignoring. I do not think that the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) was ignoring the general principle, in fact, I gather from a question which he put to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that he was trying to find out something which would be in order, which would not increase the charge, but which at the same time would enable him to put before the Committee the general principles of the fund. Hon. Members who are supporting these Amendments are not, I think, so much concerned with the narrow question of large or small instalments, they desire to reduce the burden on the fund. I regard the Clause which is now Clause 19 in the very closest connection with the preceding Clause, which is now Clause 18. I am thinking all the time of what the Committee will have to face when every February they make their report as to the financial position of the fund.
    The present financial position, in the opinion of the Government's advisers, has enabled them to restore the cuts imposed on the unemployed, but that

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    restoration of cuts is an extremely precarious matter. It was not originally regarded by the Government as possible, but then employment improved and they thought it could be done. When a review takes place February after February the Committee will always have to consider whether it is possible to continue these benefits without increasing contributions, a matter which no one can contemplate with equanimity. It is an extremely precarious matter, and a comparatively small retrogression in employment may enable the Committee to say that they could not carry it further. The first thing they will have to consider in making their financial review is this fixed provision for repayment of debt, and as long as that remains the ability of the fund to pay out to its ordinary shareholders is prejudiced by this rather large debenture issue which is hung round their necks from the start. That is what we have to deal with. I am no friend to the Bill as a whole, but I am friendly to the objects of the Government, which I have no doubt are to give the squarest deal they can to the unemployed. But they are not really giving themselves a chance in starting off again, in making this new start to the system of unemployment insurance, if they burden it from the beginning with the whole of this burden which does not altogether belong to the fund at all.
    The psychological aspect, to which the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Maitland) called attention, is also of the gravest importance. Any credit that the Government may gain in the eyes of the nation for restoring the cut on the unemployed is to a large measure discounted if they are made to feel that it has not been done by the Government at all, that it is an accident, and that it is liable to be swept away by an accident in another direction. An enormous effect would have been created in the nation if the Government, by some action of their own had showed that they were prepared to share prosperity now with the nation generally, just as the nation shared with the Government in the time of crisis. As long as this burden remains undiminished it is inevitable that those who suffer most are not getting the relief that they ought to get; and I am afraid it will continue. I do not know whether the
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    Chancellor of the Exchequer has noticed the strong expressions of opinion not only in the Press generally but in the "News Letter," which not only supports the Government but which has no other object on this earth except to support the Government. That is what it is for, and they press on the Government :
    "Is it too late to revise the schemes of the Budget and the Unemployment Bill so as to make this valuable concession."
    From what has been said by the right hon. Member for Hillhead I gather that he has altogether despaired. I am sorry to hear that. He, apparently, is content to take this small measure which he has managed to squeeze within the rules of Order in its place. I take anything, however small, which goes in the right direction. I ask hon. Members to consider the general question and to show the Government by their vote that they regard the assumption of this burden now put on the Unemployment Fund as intolerable, as unjust to the contributors to the fund, and something which for the credit of the nation should be removed at the earliest possible moment.
    5.41 p.m.
    Mr. AMERY: I should like most earnestly and in the most friendly spirit to support the appeal which has been made to my right hon. Friend from all quarters of the Committee. It is true, as the hon. Member for Stirling (Mr. Reid) has said in a very lucid speech, that the Amendment does not traverse the principle, if it be a principle, which has been laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that this burden must rest upon the contributors to the Unemployment Insurance Fund. But it does to some small extent meet the principle upon which we are all united, that is, of doing some justice to the actual present contributors to the fund. After all, there is a very strong case to be made out for the employed workers as well as for the unemployed. The employed workers, the men who have been employed throughout all these difficult years, or who have only fallen out for a short time, represent the very cream of the working classes in their trades. To many of them it is in some sense a hardship that they should be compulsorily invited or made to pay for the unemployment of others. But they are quite willing in an insurance scheme to bear their contributions

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    to insurance, even if they have no need of it.
    What is not fair is that they should have to bear another burden, the burden of the uninsurable unemployed, which by this Bill the State admits to be its own concern and not the concern of the fund—a view which was taken by the commission. To my mind it is no answer to the suggestion of the commission that two-thirds, or £76,000,000, should be borne by the Exchequer, for the Exchequer to say that in another direction they have incurred more expenditure in the relief of local authorities. That may help people who are uninsured, who are beyond insurance, but it does not help the contributor to the actual scheme. Nor to my mind is it any answer to say that the scheme is better off than it was. It is of the greatest importance that the scheme should be better off, both in order to show that insurance is better than public assistance, a point of no small value, and also to redress the cut imposed on the insured workman when his contribution was increased from 7d. to 10d. two and a-half years ago.
    It seems to me that there you have a case for redress quite as strong as that of any other class of the community, a case to which my mind would only be fairly and fully met by relieving the fund of the £76,000,000, as the Royal Commission recommended. But it would, at any rate, be met in some small part by the Amendments. These Amendments, even if they still leave the burden on the fund as a whole, ease the position for the man who has been in insurance during the last few years and who is in insurance and paying the extra contributions to-day, instead of relieving somebody in 30 or 40 years hence. From this point of view I cannot help suggesting to my right hon. Friend that it would be a grave disappointment to those among the supporters of the Government in the House of Commons who approve of the general principles of the Measure, if he were not prepared to make, at any rate, this little concession as a sign of good will, even if he is not prepared to make the major concession which some of us consider ought to be made.
    5.46 p.m.
    Sir JOHN SANDEMAN ALLEN: I think we are all in sympathy with the
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    purpose underlying the Amendments. While I am sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had the matter under close consideration, and will, if possible, do something to meet the case which has been made, I trust that anything which he may see his way to do will not be in the form proposed in the Amendments. We have been much occupied, and rightly so, with the Unemployment Insurance Fund, but it should not be forgotten that this matter affects another fund as well, and that is the Savings Bank Fund. I hope the danger of interfering with the one fund for the benefit of the other will be borne in mind, because there is a certain amount of anxiety on that point.
    Sir R. HORNE: I did not suggest infringing that fund in any way.
    Sir J. SANDEMAN ALLEN: I realise that such is not the intention of my right hon. Friend, and I merely rise to call attention to the possibility that by cutting down the interest you might produce a dangerous effect as regard that other fund. I have not gone into the details thoroughly, and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) has had all the facts before him. I feel sure, however, that the Committee will excuse me for intervening briefly in order to call attention to this matter.
    5.50 p.m.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: We have now had a number of speeches from all parts of the Committee—at least all parts but one—and all in support of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne), and I dare say there are other hon. Members who would desire to speak in the same sense. I think the time has now come when it would be convenient for the Committee if I were to make a statement as to the attitude of the Government upon the considerations which have been put before the Committee. It has been, I think, made clear that those responsible for the Amendments which we are considering have only put them down because they found that those Amendments represent the furthest they can go under the Rules of Order, towards the much larger proposition which many of them would like to press upon the Committee. I should find it a little difficult to make plain the position which I take up on this matter unless I touched for a few

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    minutes upon that larger question. The situation in regard to the relations between the debt of the Unemployment Fund and the Treasury has changed considerably since the report of the Royal Commission in 1932. It has changed even more recently than that. It changed on the day on which I made my Budget statement. It will be remembered that before that statement was made the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) appealed for a reconsideration of the decision to leave the debt largely on the fund. He made his appeal upon the basis that it would be impossible to restore the cuts unless the fund were relieved of the debt. Perhaps it would be convenient if I read his actual words :
    "If the fund is charged with £5,500,000 a year that is almost exactly the amount that would be required to restore the cuts. If it is to be paid to the Exchequer, those cuts cannot be restored until the money is available from some other source. … There is a widespread feeling that at least the report and recommendation of the Royal Commission should be adopted and that this is essential if, in the near future, the cuts are to be restored."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1934; col. 1658, Vol. 285.]
    The Budget statement made shortly afterwards showed that the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken in that view, and that it was possible to restore the cuts although the debt still remained a charge upon the fund. Therefore, that is no longer the basis of the appeal or the representation that the burden of the debt should be taken over by the Exchequer. What, then, is the ground of this representation? It is still partly the report of the Royal Commission. It is, I think, partly the argument which has been repeated several times, and last by my right hon. Friend the Member for Spark-brook (Mr. Amery) that this debt was incurred for people who had fallen out of insurance. It is also partly based upon the view that the increased contributions by employers and employed are a heavy burden upon industry, and that it would be to the general interest of the country that they should be reduced.
    I think I have fairly stated the principal grounds upon which the representation is made. With regard to the question of how the debt was incurred, I need only recall once again to the Committee a passage in the Report of the Royal Commission which seems often to be forgotten,
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    in which they point out that no less than two-thirds of the debt was entirely incurred in insurance benefits and not for people who had fallen out of insurance. As to the rest of it, they say there are no data available to show how much was incurred for insurance benefit, and how much for extended or un-covenanted benefit. Therefore, although I frankly admit that there may be some part of the remainder which was used for that purpose, we cannot tell how much. We know definitely, however, that two-thirds of it was incurred for insurance benefit alone. In regard to the contributions, I entirely agree that the increased contributions must form a considerable burden upon industry, and I am very anxious to see them reduced. I cannot take the view, however, if the view indeed is held—and I am not sure it is held—that the increased contributions were part of the emergency measures which were generally classed together under the name of "the cuts."
    The fact was, as the Royal Commission themselves point out, that the fund was in an increasingly insolvent condition owing to the continuous rise in the figures of unemployment and these contributions, if the fund had been properly administered, ought to have been raised a considerable time before. Of course, as unemployment comes down it is reasonable and natural to suppose that the consequence should be reflected in some reduction in the increased contributions that were put on to meet the phenomenal rise of unemployment. The Committee is now well aware that there is every prospect, with unemployment moving as it is at present, that there is going to be in this fund a substantial surplus after paying the debt charge and after the restoration of the cuts. It is true that under the provisions of the Bill the disposition of that surplus is not in the hands of the Government but in the hands of the Statutory Committee, but, of course, it is provided in the Schedule that among the matters which the Committee may take into consideration, and on which they may make recommendations, is this matter of the contributions. Therefore, without saying anything, which it would be very improper of me to say, which might be interpreted as a direction to the Committee, nevertheless it is clearly within their power to recommend that there

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    should be a reduction of the contributions, and it seems to me pretty clear that there will be a surplus which will allow them to make some recommendation of that kind.
    Mr. LAWSON: I am sorry indeed to interrupt, but I must say that I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is addressing himself to the Amendment on the Paper. The Committee will observe that we have not said anything at all upon this matter, because we have thought from the first that there is a more fundamental way of dealing with it by which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could have replied to the really important point. We have past experience of the limitations attaching to discussing this matter as we are discussing it now. But if the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to be allowed to widen the discussion in the way that he is doing, then it seems to me that there is going to be a Second Reading Debate upon what is, after all, a very petty point compared with the whole principle at issue in this connection.
    The CHAIRMAN: I have been following the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, and I noted what he said at the outset as to introducing this matter. I think I can see sufficiently far ahead to appreciate what is in his mind and to realise that he is definitely leading up to a point on the Amendment now before the Committee.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I hope before very long to come to the particular point of the Amendment, but I must prepare the way a little, and deal with the various matters which have been raised by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in connection with these Amendments. I desire once again to refer to the report of the Royal Commission, because its recommendation is one of the principal reasons which, as it seems to me, have been advanced to show that the Government ought to take over part of the debt. I must remind the Committee of the circumstances in which the report of the Royal Commission was made. The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) purported to quote from the report certain words. Those were not the exact words of the Commission's report. They are, I think, in substance, to be found there, but in application to an entirely different
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    point from that to which the hon. Member was directing them. He said that in making this recommendation—that is, the recommendation to which he had been referring—the Royal Commission stated that they had been guided by the present exigencies of the Exchequer. I think the hon. Gentleman will remember that, as a matter of fact, the words used by the Royal Commission about the exigencies of the Exchequer did not at all refer to the proportions of the debt which should be paid by the fund and by the Treasury respectively, but to the number of years over which repayments should be spread. They were recommending that the Exchequer should take over two-thirds of the charges upon the debt, in other words, £3,000,000 a year, on the assumption, as the hon. Member pointed out, that the repayments would be spread over 65 years. It was in that connection that the Royal Commission said they had in mind the present exigencies of the Treasury upon whom they did not wish to put too great a burden at that particular moment. When we consider the recommendations of the Royal Commission that the Exchequer should take over two-thirds of the debt, do not let us forget paragraph 677 of their report, from which I should like to read a few words :
    "In the case of the Exchequer contribution"—
    this is not the contribution to the debt, but the contribution which is parallel to the contributions of employers and employed—
    "we are of opinion that in principle the main cost of insurance against occasional unemployment should fall upon industry, and accordingly that the Exchequer contribution should, in principle, be less than the contribution of either employers or workers."
    They go on to say how they think the Exchequer contribution should be fixed, and they continue :
    "So long, however, as the finances of the Insurance scheme remain in their present precarious position, we cannot recommend that the principle of a smaller Exchequer contribution should be translated into practice."
    I beg hon. Members to weigh very carefully the meaning of those words. As long as the fund was in the precarious position at which it stood at that time, the Royal Commission could not recommend

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    that the Exchequer contribution should not be less than the contributions of the employers and the employed. The obvious conclusion was that when the fund was out of that precarious position, when it had once more become solvent, the principle which they put forward could be brought into practice. The Government have not adopted that proposal. They have kept the Exchequer contribution at one-third of the total contributions, and they are not proposing to alter that. But that must be borne in mind when hon. Members refer to the recommendation about the debt, because the two things must be coupled together, and if you take one into account you must not forget to take into account the other also.
    There is one other point I want to put forward. I know that a great many hon. Members feel strongly on this subject and that they are moved by a number of considerations, all of them, no doubt, considerations which are proper. I do not wish to criticise them in any way, but I do ask them to believe that if I take a different view from them on the matter, I hold my convictions just as strongly and sincerely, and that I have to take into account information which perhaps is not equally available to the whole House. Once more I want to put this point. The reduction in unemployment, when it comes and as it comes, is promptly translated into benefit for the Unemployment Insurance Fund. It shows an immediate surplus and an immediate change in its position. The reduction in unemployment does not show itself with equal rapidity in the finances of the nation. Ultimately, we get the benefit, but it comes very slowly. When people talk about what is fair to those who are concerned with unemployment insurance, they ought not to forget that they owe, also, fair treatment to the taxpayer in general, and I who am continually hearing and reading every day of how next year it is hoped that various other taxes may be reduced, or that various other cuts may be restored, or that various items of expenditure may be found possible, I see building up in front of me an amount of extra expenditure or extra demands upon income which make me feel that, if it is a question of who can spare the money, the fund is in a very much better and sounder position
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    than the Exchequer. Therefore, I have not felt able to accept the view that any part of this debt should be charged upon the Exchequer. Since Amendments to that effect are out of order, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead has put the three Amendments on the Paper. I want to come now——
    Mr. LAWSON: This is pretty thick. This is a Second Beading speech.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am speaking within the Ruling of the Chair. With regard to the Amendments on the Paper, I say at once that I am very anxious, if I possibly can, to show those who have been making the appeals to me that I desire to meet them. I have examined the Amendments very carefully with a view to seeing how far it is possible for me to go in the direction of my right hon. Friend. The three Amendments are to be taken together. The first has the effect of reducing the annual payments from £5,500,000 to £5,000,000; the second reduces it after a definite period to £4,000,000; and the third reduces the rate of interest. As they are being taken together it does not matter which one I speak on first, and I should like to come to the third Amendment. What was my right hon. Friend's argument on that point? He said that at the time when the arrangement for 3½ per cent. was made between the Treasury and the National Debt Commissioners, that rate represented fairly the current rate of interest for loans of about this term. Since then, he said, the rate of interest had fallen so that it was now possible to borrow much cheaper than it was then, and that therefore it was reasonable to ask that the rate of interest should be reduced. I do not know whether, if the rate had gone the other way, my right hon. Friend would have asked us to revise the bargain from the 3½ per cent. upon which we had agreed to something which represented the rate of interest to-day.
    It is clear, I think, that I am not on very strong grounds in asking the National Debt Commissioners to go back on the arrangements made with them because the rate of interest has moved in our favour since. Nevertheless, I think it is possible to say that nothing has been paid under the first arrangement and that the actual bargain has not begun to operate, and that, since the rate of interest now prevailing would not

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    mean a loss to the National Debt Commissioners, I could ask them to reconsider the rate. I am prepared to do that, though not at the figure which my right hon. Friend put down, because it must be recognised that the figure of 3 per cent. is below the actual rate at which we are borrowing. My right hon. Friend said that the price of the 3 per cent. Funding Loan, the circumstances of which were not very different from the circumstances we are now considering, was just over 100. That is an error, for the price, I think, is now about 98.
    Sir R. H ORNE: I said that to-day the price of the 3 per cent. Funding Loan, 1948–53, is 100¼.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have made inquiries, and I am told that it stands at 98 3/16.
    Sir R. H ORNE: I am referring to the 3 per cent. Funding Loan, 1948–53.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am referring to the last loan. The fact is that the rate at which we can borrow to-day is represented by a figure of about 3⅛, and in dealing with the National Debt Commissioners, although some hon. Members credit me with a great deal of influence with them, I can only maintain that influence if I ask them to do things which are reasonable, since they have, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, their responsibilities to the depositors in the trustee savings banks. I am quite prepared to ask the National Debt Commissioners to revise the arrangement that has been made at 3½, and to substitute for that figure the current rate, which is 3⅛. That will go a very long way towards my right hon. Friend's request, and as far as I can go, because if I went below the current rate, that would mean a loss to the Exchequer and a new Financial Resolution.
    What effect would that have upon the annual instalments? It has been pointed out correctly that the debt has now been reduced to somewhere in the neighbourhood of £106,000,000. Taking the instalments that are provided in the Bill, it would mean that the period of time it would take to repay the debt would be shorter, and it would come down to something like 34 or 35 years. Assuming that we leave it where it is, the reduction in the rate of interest would not make a very large difference in the amount of the annual instalments,
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    but if we were to fix the instalments at a figure of, say, £5,000,000, or a reduction of £500,000 in the sum in the Bill, the debt would be repaid in about 37 years. But that would not be quite in accordance with the second of the three Amendments, which suggests that after a certain date the instalments should be reduced to £4,000,000. As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mr. J. Reid) this could not affect the Treasury, but it does affect the term over which these repayments would have to be spread, and I am advised that if the instalments were brought down to as low a figure as £4,000,000 it would be 55 years before the debt was repaid. It does not seem right to me that the debt should be spread over so long a period as that. As a matter of fact the difference of £1,000,000 in the annual instalments will not make a very great difference in what the Statutory Committee can recommend, and seeing that we do not know what circumstances may arise in the future I feel it would be improper to postpone the repayment of the debt for 55 years. I suggest, therefore, that we might reduce the instalments to £5,000,000 instead of £5,500,000 and that we should reduce the rate of interest to 3⅛ per cent., subject to the assent of the National Debt Commissioners. In going as far as that I have endeavoured very sincerely to try to meet the views of those who have backed this Amendment, and I hope they will feel that I have gone a very long way towards meeting them.
    6.17 p.m.
    Major HILLS: My right hon. Friend has not met the larger issue that lies behind this Amendment. The reduction of half a million a year in the instalments is something; but it does not meet the demand which exists in this House, and I believe in the country too, that the Exchequer shall bear more of this burden. The promise to reduce the rate of interest from 3½ to 3⅛ per cent. is, of course, a concession but I would point out to the Chancellor that it does not operate for several years. The contractual period lasts, I understand, until 1938, and until that period is over the concession in the rate of interest cannot come into effect. Am I not right in thinking that the reduction would not begin to operate until the contractual period is over?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The contractual period is not a period which covers the whole debt but is a period which applies to each particular five years' certificates, and, therefore, the new rate of interest would begin to apply as soon as any certificates mature.
    Major HILLS: I understand that as each five-year period expires fresh money will be borrowed at 3⅛ per cent. and that those five-year periods fall in at different times. I agree that that is a concession, but if I may respectfully say so, it does not go to what is the root of the demand that exists in this House and, I am sure, exists in the country. It does not meet the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), for it does not meet the point of the insured man and his position in respect of uncovenanted benefit.
    6.20 p.m.
    Mr. A. BEVAN: On a point of Order. This Debate has now been going on almost for four hours, and the Members of the Opposition have not made any speeches at all, because we desire to speak on what hon. Members are all saying in their speeches that they desire to speak on, and that is the exemption of the fund from any debt at all. I suggest with every respect, Captain Bourne, that hon. Members have been out of order almost the whole of this evening. They are trying to make Second Reading speeches under a subterfuge. The Committee ought to get rid of these Amendments in order that we may discuss what hon. Members say they want to discuss, and I suggest, with all respect, that we are entitled to be protected from what is now developing into a Second Reading Debate on very narrow Amendments.
    6.21 p.m.
    Sir R. HORNE: I would like to assist the Committee in any difficulty which may be experienced. I listened with very great care to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, and I have consulted with some of my hon. Friends who are responsible for the Amendments on the Paper. On my own behalf and on theirs I wish to express our consideration to the Chancellor for the way he has met us. Personally, I feel indebted to him for the sympathy as well as the courtesy which he has shown to us. We are prepared to accept what the Chancellor has
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    offered. If I might make a suggestion, we might, perhaps, deal with the first of the Amendments now, because I gather from the Chancellor's speech that he would accept that Amendment and have it incorporated in the Clause. I refer to the Amendment which reduces the sum from £5,500,000 to £5,000,000. I think we might deal with that at once. In the matter of interest, I gather that while he has said that he is himself in favour of reducing the rate of interest to 3⅛ per cent. he has, as a matter of ordinary routine, to deal with the National Debt Commissioners. I do not gather that there is likely to be any difficulty about it, and at any rate I am perfectly content, and so are my hon. Friends to rely on that idea being carried out, and that we may be able to insert 3⅛ instead of 3½ in the Clause upon Report stage. May I add that, as I suspected, my right hon. Friend and I were dealing with different securities in the controversy we had a few moments ago as to the rate of interest. I erroneously referred to the 3 Per Cent Funding Loan, which is yielding the rate of interest which my right hon. Friend said, but what I was really thinking of, though I incorrectly described it, was the 3 Per Cent. Conversion Loan, which is now standing at rather over par. But there are no more controversies now so far as this Amendment is concerned, and I do not seek to raise any more.
    6.23 p.m.
    Mr. A. BEVAN: Do we understand that the three Amendments in the name of the right hon. Gentleman and his friends are withdrawn? If there is no intention of withdrawing them I must persist in the point of Order which I raised, namely, that the Debate ought now to be strictly confined to the merits of the Amendments themselves, and that we shall have an opportunity to get on with the major issues.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne): I understand that this Amendment is to be accepted and that the right hon. Gentleman will not move the other two. In that case, I could then put the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." I cannot help thinking that that would be the best way of dealing with the matter.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I understand the right hon. Gentleman does not desire to move the other two Amendments.
    Sir R. HORNE: No.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    6.25 p.m.
    Mr. LAWSON: In rising to speak against the Clause standing part of the Bill I should like to emphasise the point put by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) that it is a remarkable thing about the Debate that hon. Members have been giving reasons not merely for the concession which the Chancellor has made but reasons against the principle that the fund shoulid accept responsibility for this debt. The debt has been laid upon the fund under the assumption that the people who are members of the fund are responsible for it, or that the insurance system is in some way directly responsible for the debt. When this Bill becomes an Act, if we accept responsibility for this debt, it will be laying upon the fund a burden which the wildest dreams of those versed in finance never conceived that it should bear. I was in the House when this fund started. There are not many Members here who were in the House at that time. It was a small, limited Insurance Fund, started in 1911. There was no conception at that time that it would have to meet such conditions as have prevailed since the War. It was one of the funds set up to meet the troubles of a limited number of craft organisations. There were about 2,000,000 members of the fund. It was not widely known outside those crafts, and it was not considered as anything more than a very meagre experiment to meet the limited unemployment of pre-war days. No one thought for a moment that it was likely to be used to meet an emergency like this.
    After the War there were great masses—literally millions—of people who ceased work when the "Cease fire" went forth. A certain number were people who had never been in industry before, and it was a certainty that they would not remain in industry very long; but there were great masses of people unemployed, and there was a very strong spirit abroad. Men were returning from the War, and in
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    many cases had no work. There were the munition workers. Those of us who were in the House at that time and were looking at the question from the centre of things could see, as the Government of the day saw, that there were all the possibilities of a very urgly situation. First of all the Government used what was known as the "out-of-work benefit," which was simply a payment out of Treasury funds for the purpose of keeping the people quiet. This continued for some time. Then the Government mobilised the Insurance Fund to meet this great emergency. I ask the Committee to note that it was a great new question, touching great masses of unemployed who were the product of the War and of the disorganisation of industry as the result of the War, and the Government had, in the first instance, simply to pay those people out of the Government's own coffers. The Government attempted to use this small and limited fund for the purpose, and it is not to be wondered at that there was a debt round about £20,000,000 in the first 12 months.
    The first point I want to make is that it cannot be proved by the Chancellor or the Minister of Labour that this fund, which started as a sort of hand-to-mouth business, was at all meant to meet the problem that it was called upon to meet, or that it was founded for that purpose. Great masses of the people for whom the Government had recognised responsibility were put upon that fund, and it was called the Insurance Fund. Many of those people would have been surprised to know that they were insured. If the people who were plumped upon that fund had been told that they were getting the money as insurance, they would have been very much surprised. I am not so sure but that that was not the origin of the term "dole." The Government carried on for some time in those circumstances, and did their best to adapt this petty thing which was the nucleus of an insurance organisation, and which was not meant originally to meet the kind of exigency to which it was finally applied. So the Government, through the Ministers of Labour, tried to adapt it to the new problem. The right hon. Gentleman the present Minister of Labour was in the House at the time. It was like using a pint pot to bale out the sea, so to speak, and

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    Ministers of Labour had to get up to all sorts of tactics—I should say that they had to use all kinds of tricks to make this organisation, which had been grabbed for the purpose, fit the needs.
    So we get to what was called "un-covenanted benefit." Everybody knew what uncovenanted benefit was. It was the old payment to the unemployed under another name. There was a theoretical period of people being insured when the fund first began. Great masses were never insured, and Ministers were particularly asked to try to make this thing fit. There was the device that was called "the Minister's discretion." I do not know what happened to Ministers at the time when they were supposed to use their discretion. I should think that life was a general nightmare. The Minister of Labour knows something about that. Hon. Members who were here at that time will recall that the Ministers were constantly assailed upon various grounds connected with principles of insurance that were very shadowy indeed, if they existed, except that somebody really needed something and that his need had to be met. Ministers used to be bombarded every day for long periods with matters of that kind.
    Uncovenanted benefit, Minister's discretion and all the rest of it, were only attempts to adapt this new machinery to something which it was never meant to meet, for the reason that there was a great new problem upon us which had scarcely any relation to the unemployed problem as it was in pre-War times; fundamentally it is the same, but it has been altered by the sweep of new powers and by the new forces that have come into operation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that there came a time when the Government accepted responsibility. They tried to get proposals accepted, and, instead of having what were called transitional cases, the Government definitely tried the plan of 30 stamps, eight stamps, 30 stamps in two years, and 30 at any time. Various conditions were laid down. Ministers stood at the Treasury Box and proclaimed that one day we should get back to the old 6 per cent. of unemployment. I remember a Minister of Labour telling the House of Commons that all his figures were based upon an unemployment figure
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    of 6 per cent. annually, and so he laid down the rule about the 30 stamps with various qualifications. The 6 per cent. turned out to be nearer three times that figure, for the simple reason that conditions, as conceived during the time when the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1911, was put into operation, had altogether been revolutionised because of the changed conditions in the world and of the new forces. That did not work at all either, so finally the Government of the day said, "We will accept direct responsibility for the people who are on transitional payments." The Chancellor of the Exchequer said :
    "It may be said that the people who are on transitional payments might have been responsible for something like two-thirds."
    Members of the Royal Commission said that it was quite true——
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I said just the opposite.
    Mr. LAWSON: I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was quoting. Members of the Royal Commission said, at any rate, that it was quite true that a great part of this debt——
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: What I said was that two-thirds of the debt, at any rate, had been incurred by insurance benefit, and that as to the rest there was no data to say how much there was of transitional payment and how much of benefit.
    Mr. LAWSON: That is the point. The Government were not in the position to say accurately for how much the transitional people were responsible, but they knew that they were responsible for some of the debt.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Insurance benefit was responsible for two thirds of the debt.
    Mr. LAWSON: That depends upon how you define "benefit." At one time benefit was defined in a much wider way than it is defined in the present Bill, The Government have come down to the 26 stamps and the possible 52 extension in regard to the 52 weeks. They want to make the fund solvent by laying upon it a mass of debt which is over £100,000,000—it ranges to £115,000,000, as a matter of fact. We say that the people who are

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    on this fund are not responsible for the debt, which was incurred to meet a great national emergency and which was just as much a social insurance as is the interest that was paid to the people who lent money in time of war to secure us against the ravages of an enemy. After the War, the debt was incurred through simply buying off people who might otherwise have been difficult to deal with.
    Everyone knows what were the sentiments and feelings that prevailed at that time. The soldiers had been told that they were fighting for a world fit for heroes to live in, and they had been encouraged by every possible means to give the best of their services. The great mass of the soldiers returned and found that there was no work for them. The money was used, some of it out of the original fund, for the purpose of keeping those people quiet. It was a social insurance. It was buying off people who might have made trouble. In no sense could it be said that it was a debt incurred by the people who are now members of the Insurance Fund. On all grounds—from the origin of this debt onwards; in all its practice; with the various attempts and the various subterfuges that the State has made in order to try to apply the Insurance Fund to a new set of conditions; on any grounds you like, this £100,000,000 should not be laid upon the people who are members of the fund. It will be very unjust if that is done, and we say that the State ought to take responsibility for this money. The right hon. Gentleman gave us a hint during his speech, and I wondered whether he meant that we could not expect unemployment to continue to fall in the future at the same rate as it is at present. I shall read over to-morrow with very great interest what he said, because I think it was a very significant passage.
    We have been talking about the possibility of reducing the contributions, but I am not one of those who ever accepted the theory that unemployment contributions are a real burden upon industry. If they were a burden upon industry to anything like the extent that they are said to be, America should have been in a very healthy condition now. We have not only had unemployment insurance, but health insurance, and various other responsibilities for social services; but
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    America, without these things, does not seem to be as active and prosperous as one would think she should be from some of the arguments that are put forward. It is very desirable, of course, that in the future contributions should be reduced if possible, but one of the first things to be done—and the Bill makes it clear—is that the fund has to be kept solvent. If the fund is to be kept solvent in the future, can it afford to pay the £5,000,000 which the right hon. Gentleman suggests will be the limit in four years' time, or at any rate within a certain number of years? At the best, what he has accepted is that the interest to be paid on the debt will be limited now to £5,000,000 a year, and the question is, can the fund, if it is to be solvent and if it is to do all the things that are expected of it, afford to continue paying that £5,000,000 a year?
    It may be that at the present time we are really in something like a boom. Do not let the Committee be under any illusion about this. The real fact is that practically every other country in the world is sharing in this improvement in trade, as is shown by the figures of the International Labour Office. The question is, is employment going to remain as it is, or is it going to improve? We hope that it is going to improve, but in these days of disturbed trade, when even the most accurate and mathematically minded economists are very chary about making prophecies, are we not likely, if this fund has to pay £5,000,000 of interest annually, to place it in a position in which in future years the contributions might even have to be increased in order to meet the needs and keep the fund solvent? We say that it would be good business, from the point of view of a solvent fund, to cancel this debt and relieve the fund of this £5,000,000 a year interest, in order that the fund might be put in a more substantial condition as regards increased benefits or reduced contributions, or so that, at any rate, if bad years come in the future, it would stand the test much better than it will even from the point of view of the fathers of this particular scheme.
    We do not, however, believe in the division of the unemployed into two sections. The Minister of Labour in this Bill extends the period from 26 weeks to 52 weeks under certain conditions,

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    and, if the debt were abolished, it might give a greater chance in the future of enlarging that period, so that the great mass of the unemployed who are on transitional payments might be in a better position than at present, and might have a longer period of benefit. But the present Government have been in the position of making presents, under the name of subsidies and other names, to various people from whom they hope to gain support—millions of money which, when they are totalled up, much exceed the relief for which we are asking on behalf of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. I am certain that, from the point of view of the conditions under which the debt was incurred, from the point of view of a solvent fund, and from the point of view of justice to the unemployed people who are on the fund, it would not only be good business, but would place the fund in a position to do much better things than it can do at the present time, if this relief were given. The right hon. Gentleman does not agree; his preliminary speech was an answer to our speeches against this Clause. It does not look as though he were going to agree, and I should be very much surprised if he did. The Government have a theory that if you help the prosperous you make everybody else prosperous :
    "Whosoever hath, to him shall be given."
    It is a good principle for business, it is a good principle for national life, to build up those whose conditions are already fairly substantial, and to give, if you are giving at all, in fractions to those who are in want. I dare say the right hon. Gentleman thinks that he is as human as anyone else in the House, and he is. He is just as kindly personally as anyone that there is, either in the House or outside it. But the right hon. Gentleman stands for a principle, a view of society, in which he firmly holds that it is necessary to relieve and fortify financially those who are best off. I am sure that if he could have a proper appreciation of the needs of the great masses of people who are on transitional payments or on benefit—if he could know the lives of those people, their struggles, their efforts to live decently—if he could see how from morning until night those people, with just as exalted views of life as himself and the
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    best Members here, who struggle to maintain not only their character and their integrity but their homes—I am sure that if he considered all these things, the right hon. Gentleman would think it a very meagre gift to accept the responsibility for this £115,000,000 of debt in order that in future he might possibly include a whole lot of people who are now outside the benefit system, and in order that he might improve the position of those who are on benefit. I am not permitted to argue the wider question on this Clause, but, if unemployment insurance is to be made watertight, if it is to be built on a sound foundation, if it is to give decent returns to the people when they are unemployed, if it is to enlarge its boundaries as far as possible so as to include a great many people who are on transitional payments and outside transitional payments at the present time, the right hon. Gentleman and the Government will have to do what is decent and just. If they did that, they would accept responsibility for the whole of this debt. We shall vote against the Clause because we think that it is not only uneconomic but unjust to those who are members of the fund.
    6.57 p.m.
    Major HILLS: The hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) has traversed such a wide field that I hope he will forgive me if I do not attempt to follow him. I will only say that I do not agree with him. I think he is unfair to the Chancellor; I think he might have looked more to the value of these concessions; and, although I want the Chancellor to go further, the hon. Member was not right in saying that he is giving to those who have, nor was he right, in my judgment, in saying that insurance contributions are not a tax on industry. I think they are a heavy tax, and the worst form of tax, because they increase as an employer does his duty and employs more labour. At any rate, whether they are a tax on industry or not, they are a tax on the workman, and a very heavy tax, too.
    The Chancellor told us with great force that, although there were convictions in the minds of those who wanted an increased contribution from the Exchequer to the Unemployment Insurance Fund, he had equal convictions on his side, and more information, and he had to consider

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    the position of the taxpayer. All those things I admit, but the contributor to the Unemployment Insurance Fund is also a taxpayer, and he has suffered a cut, or rather, an increased payment, which is the equivalent of a cut. He pays a tax which is very onerous, and I think that, as between the employer, the workman and the general taxpayer, by far the strongest claim is in favour of the employer and the workman, and that a, lowering of contributions would be more just and more useful than the infinitesimal effect that would be caused to the taxpayer. I wish to give credit to the Chancellor for all that he has done. I quite recognise that he has made some concessions. In the first place, the decrease of £500,000 in the yearly contribution will especially affect those members of the fund whose contributions were increased in 1931. I take it that a great many of them are the same people, and they may see the time when their contributions are decreased to the old figure, or come rather nearer to it. To that extent, therefore, the Chancellor has helped the people who bore the burden in 1931. Then he has given a concession of ⅜ths per cent. interest on all those blocks of the debt which fall in and can be reborrowed. Lastly, he has pointed out to the Committee that the present Bill might have followed the reform suggested by the Royal Commission in paragraph 677 of their report and might have placed the Exchequer's contribution on a lower level than that of the workers or employers.
    I would, however, point out that the first concession, the £500,000, is no burden on the Treasury. It merely means that the term of repayment is increased. The three-eighths per cent. is no burden on the Treasury. The Chancellor is satisfied that he can reborrow the money at that rate, and the Exchequer, therefore, will not suffer. These concessions, therefore, do not affect the Exchequer, and the only one that does is the possible claim that the Exchequer might have reduced their contributions below the level of that of the employers or the men. Against that you have the general feeling that it is the duty of the Exchequer—and of the taxpayer, who stands behind the Exchequer—to help the Unemployment Fund out of the rut and to help those people who contribute to it. The Royal Commission went as far as to suggest that the Exchequer
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    should take two-thirds of the burden. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hill-head (Sir R. Horne), in his speech on the Budget, only suggested that the Chancellor should devote his realised surplus of £31,000,000 to that object instead of to the repayment of debt, and I ventured to make the same suggestion myself. I beg the Chancellor to consider the strong feeling that exists, among his own supporters and in the country, that a claim of that sort is a just claim and ought to be met by the Government. I do not ask that he should go as far as the Royal Commission suggested, but I do think that to remit one-third, or thereabouts, of the present debt of the fund would be common justice to those who are in the fund and contribute to it. It would also be in consonance with the opinion of many hon. Members of this House and with a large body of opinion outside.
    I do not want to enter into a dispute about figures. It is quite easy to argue one way or the other as to how this debt was incurred. Does not the Chancellor see, however, that he is acting as though the Exchequer had no responsibility at all for any part of the £106,000,000? He is charging the whole on the fund; for his concession of £500,000 off the instalments, and a reduction of the interest does not meet the point that he leaves the whole of the £106,000,000 on the fund. That is where I join issue. It ought not to be on the fund, and it is entirely wrong that it should be on the fund. However you may juggle with the figures, there must be some liability on the Exchequer—for extended benefit, or uncovenanted benefit, or transitional benefit, or whatever name you like to give to it. The Chancellor admits no liability whatever. He is giving a chance to the present people on the fund of a reduction of their contributions, but he leaves on the fund and on its members of the future the burden of repaying the whole of the debt. On that point the Royal Commission were purposely explicit. They said :
    "It would not be equitable for employers and workmen to contribute equally with the Exchequer."
    That is, I believe, the opinion of the right hon. Member for Hillhead, who does not speak rashly or without thought, and I believe it is the opinion of the majority of hon. Members of this House.
    The Chancellor had a most successful launching for his Budget. It was well received

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    in this House and in the country. I confess, however, that it would have been rounded off, and the social side of it would have been further weighted, if he had done something to repay the capital liability on the fund. I should have liked to see him do it in a dramatic manner by taking up and handing over his realised surplus. I believe that Governments sometimes do not appreciate how much people are ruled by emotion and imagination. He has not done that, but let him consider whether he cannot take part of this debt on to the Exchequer. It is a debt which the State ought to incur and did incur. It is a payment which the State should make for the fund supported people who would otherwise have come upon the Exchequer. For all those reasons I hope my right hon. Friend has not said the last word. I know that he wants to protect the taxpayer and to do what is fair by all the different people whose salaries were cut, and whose positions were worsened in 1931. Is he not leaving out the present contributors to the fund? I do not appreciate the distinction that he made between the cut and an increase of contribution. Surely they are the same, and surely these people have to pay that contribution even now.
    7.8 p.m.
    Mr. A. BEVAN: I wish first of all to congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon his proper estimate of the real substance in the rebellion which was blowing up this afternoon. All the speeches to which we have listened from the Government Benches were speeches against the debt itself. There was no substance in most of the speech of the right hon. Member the Member for Hill-head (Sir R. Horne), or in that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Sparkbrook Division of Birmingham (Mr. Amery), except a root-and-branch objection to the fund starting off with a debt at all. It may be clear to the Committee that the Amendments which were on the Order Paper were not the Amendments that these hon. Gentlemen would have liked to put there, but may have been subterfuges adopted in order to press the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the entire substance of the debt.
    Mr. AMERY: And yet keep in order.
    Mr. BEVAN: Now the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken away that
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    excuse, but the Clause is still here. There was no need for the Amendments at all to enable the right hon. Gentleman to give effect to their desires; they can walk into the Lobby this evening and vote against the Clause. What, therefore, was there in the speeches we heard? Pure and unadulterated hypocrisy. All that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done is to give the unemployed something which costs him nothing and which has the effect of reducing the annual burden on the fund by £500,000 a year, a suggestion which was made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer from these benches when the Financial Resolution was before the Committee. There is nothing new in what the right hon. Member for Hillhead said to-day, although I admit that he said it with great charm, grace and lucidity. The suggestion was made in the earliest stages of the Bill that the money could be borrowed at far lower rates of interest than those which were charged, and that it was possible now to convert the debt to a lower rate of interest. I myself made the suggestion to the Chancellor that such a conversion was not only expedient but was also desirable and fair to this fund. Now, after all these months, the House is packed with Conservative Members listening to portentous and pretentious speeches from the benches opposite asking that this be done. The Chancellor, who knows his supporters by now, gets up and gracefully says he will do it, and £500,000 is saved to the fund, a result with which he is very pleased.
    If, however, right hon. and hon Members were sincere when they said that they wanted not merely to secure these Amendments but also to abolish the fund root and branch, why are they not on these benches now, making their speeches? Why will they not go into the Lobby this evening and vote against the Clause itself? No wonder the country loses its faith and confidence in men who get up in this Chamber and speak in that way. It is not fair to the Committee, it is not fair to the country, that they should hang on to such narrow Amendments and such wide considerations and then run away from them afterwards when they have the opportunity of squaring up. The position which we take up is a very simple one. I do not wish to go into the general argument between insurable and uninsurable benefit,

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    because, quite frankly, my simple education has never enabled me to understand it—unless the distinction is made to give the right hon. Member for Spark-brook an opportunity of insulting the unemployed by referring to those who are on insurable benefit as the cream of the working men.
    Mr. AMERY: The hon. Member entirely misunderstood me. I said that in other trades the men who have been in employment throughout are naturally the best of the workers. I agree that there are trades in which the best of the workers have been unemployed for years, but on the whole, in those trades, those who are in employment are the best of the workers.
    Mr. BEVAN: What the right hon. Gentleman says is a direct confirmation of what I am telling him. He says that those who continue in employment are the cream of the workpeople. I entirely and emphatically repudiate that suggestion. In many of the larger distressed areas the best of the workpeople are out of work. This division, this distinction which has been wrongly drawn between insured and uninsured is merely la device to enable people to get up in this House and refer to a certain class of unemployed man as an undesirable citizen. The right hon. Gentleman himself did it to-day.
    Mr. AMERY: I did nothing of the sort.
    Mr. BEVAN: I do not wish to misrepresent anyone, but there can be no other way of interpreting the statement that those who are in employment regularly are the cream of the workpeople and are more desirable citizens than those who are unemployed. Am I unfair in assuming that?
    Mr. MOLSON: Yes. I cannot remember exactly what my right hon. Friend's words were. I do not know why I should be intervening except that the hon. Member pointed to me.
    Mr. BEVAN: The hon. Member was in disagreement with me. That is why I am referring to him. I say I am correctly interpreting the right hon. Gentleman, and I am pointing out that that is one of the consequences of drawing this purely artificial distinction between insurable and uninsurable people. Indeed, I am satisfied it is one of the reasons, apart from that of saving money
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    at the expense of the unemployed, why the distinction is persisted in. I emphatically repudiate the suggestion that those who have been idle the longest are necessarily, because of that, less desirable than those who are in continuous employment. In the mining industry, where there are 280,000 out of work, and in the textile and ship-building trades men are unemployed through conditions over which they have not the slightest control, and it is monstrous that men in these circumstances should have the least taint attached to them. It is one of the consequences of this purely artificial classification of the unemployed.
    Why is there a debt on the Unemployment Fund? It is very largely a consequence of the fact that there never has been an insurance scheme at all. The scheme has always been based upon far too narrow a segment of British industry, and indeed it has been based upon those industries which are most exposed to the shock of world competition. It is just where competition hits hardest, in the basic trades, depending as we are on world trade and depending upon the general prosperity of the country, that unemployment has been most acute since the War. Unemployment insurance contributions are in substance derived from those industries. The fund would have been actuarially solvent all the way through if, instead of having been industrial insurance, it had been social insurance, as it ought to have been. That is why we protest against these distinctions all the time. We say that all the citizens of the nation have benefited by maintaining their employment, and, therefore, all the citizens of the country ought to contribute. Instead of that, by having the Insurance Fund so narrow as to render it actuarially insolvent whenever economic distress begins, you place the maintenance of unemployed people upon unemployed people, or on those areas where unemployment is most acute.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer made the astonishing suggestion that the fund is in debt because high benefits were paid. Of course, if we did not have any benefits at all, you would not have any debt. If you kept on lowering the benefits you would wipe the debt out. You would wipe the men out too, but that does not matter. The debt is there because of this attitude towards insurance. You sacrifice

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    the unemployed man to some mysterious actuarial god to which this House is always offering up libations—some extraordinary principle of actuarial and financial solvency which must be preserved at all costs. Unless you do it, the whole of society will be shaken to its foundations.
    Sir FRANCIS FREMANTLE: As happened in 1931.
    Mr. BEVAN: I am counting 1931. The hon. Gentleman need not be afraid. In 1931 the suggestion was made, I think by Sir Richard Hopkins—and it was the beginning of the whole crisis—that perpetual borrowings by the fund, which obviously could not repay them, was an unmistakable sign of an unbalanced Budget. The Chancellor's Budget is balanced, but the debt is there. According to that statement, no debt could be accumulated, but the annual outgoings should be met by the annual income. Is it being met? The fund still owes. £106,000,000. When we were bringing Motions for loans before the House of Commons, it was argued on more than one occasion that those loans ought not to be incurred. They ought to be chargeable to the annual Budget, if the Chancellor had the courage to raise money for the purpose. The Chancellor is not wiping out the £106,000,000 on the annual Budget. He is carrying it as a loan. What is his getaway from that? It is that the Unemployment Insurance Fund will be able to pay it back in 37 years. How does he know? He cannot tell. As a matter of fact, he cannot tell what is going to happen to the fund next year. That is why he was so guarded to-day. He introduced into his speech a very mysterious sentence. He said, "Of course, there is information available to me which I cannot give to the House of Commons." What does he mean by that? He means, obviously, that what is happening to the Insurance Fund is that it is suffering from a surfeit of riches. It has too much money.
    If you took this £5,000,000 away, what would the Statutory Advisory Committee do? It would be embarrassed by the £5,000,000. That is the suggestion. It would do something silly, because the industrial outlook is by no means settled. If they had this additional £5,000,000, they might reduce the contributions or they might increase benefits. If they reduced
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    contributions without increasing benefits, there would be a great hue and cry, because people would regard it as monstrous, while you are still paying only 2s. a week for a child, to use the surplus to reduce contributions. If, on the other hand, they used the £5,000,000 for the purpose of increasing the rates of benefit, Unemployment Insurance benefit would be higher than agricultural wages in many parts of the country. So that to give this £5,000,000 to the Unemployment Insurance Fund to handle would be very undesirable from the Chancellor's point of view. If you used it to raise the scale of benefits or to reduce contributions, and unemployment increased next year, you might have to raise the contributions again or reduce the benefits, and, though a committee might be exceedingly popular when it increased benefits or reduced contributions, it would soon lose its popularity if it had to increase contributions and reduce benefits again. So that what the Chancellor is attempting to do by resisting our arguments is to prevent the Statutory Advisory Committee from having a sum of money at its disposal which it might use in a way which would be an embarrassment to the Government in the future.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury will not answer that case by getting up and giving us a few more mysterious lessons upon the wisdom of orthodox finance. We want to know whether it would not be far better for the Unemployment Insurance Fund to start off now with no debt at all. If you believe that you have a good scheme, start it off under the best auspices. Let them use the £5,000,000, if they wish, to reduce contributions, although I am satisfied that any decent meeting of workpeople, if they had the question put to them, "Are you in favour of reducing contributions or abolishing the means test?" would vote for the abolition of the means test. There is no desire on the part of workpeople to have a reduction in contributions at this moment at the expense of keeping their comrades on the means test.
    Mr. CURRY: Will the hon. Member explain how the contributions affect the means test? I understand that there is no means test on the insured population who draw in respect of contributions.
    Mr. BEVAN: It is perfectly easy to answer the hon. Member. Under this

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    Bill a certain number of people are taken off the means test by the extension of statutory benefit from 26 to 52 weeks, under which the Chancellor gets a present of £6,000,000. He could easily use the £6,000,000 to increase the 52 weeks to 100. That would take more men off transitional payment and put them on to Unemployment Insurance benefit. It would, at the same time, put an additional sum of money into the Chancellor's hands, because he would no longer have to find the money for those men from the Budget, and he could use it to abolish the means test for those who would still be on it. That is exactly what he has done under the Bill. He has increased the number of weeks during which men may receive statutory benefit from 26 to 52. That means that he is taking them off the Budget and putting them on the fund. At the same time he takes them off the means test and puts them on to Unemployment Insurance benefit. He uses that £8,500,000, the surplus now of the fund, and saves the Chancellor of the Exchequer £6,000,000, which he is paying out in transitional payments to those men. If he extended insurance benefit by using up £5,000,000, he would take more men off the means test and put them on to the fund. At the same time he would have an additional sum of money at disposal to make the conditions of those on the means test more favourable. So that in point of fact the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by using his £5,000,000 to liquidate debt, is using it in such a way as to prevent the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee from coming to the assistance both of the unemployed men and of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and therefore I suggest that, if you put the question to any meeting of workpeople, they would not accept a reduction of contributions until justice had been done to all the unemployed people.
    But that does not end the story by any means. Even suppose the Committee would not hold the view that the surplus should be devoted to a reduction of the number on the means test or to an increase in benefits, a reduction of contributions would be of some importance. I am not putting this forward as the first case, but merely assuming that the other devices have not been resorted to and that a reduction of, contributions would
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    bring some relief to those industries which are already distressed. It is insufficiently appreciated that the industries which contribute the larger proportion of the Unemployment Insurance Fund are those which have been depressed since 1921—coal mining, the textile industry, shipbuilding and engineering. A reduction of the rate of contributions would be a relief to those industries which at the moment need it most. It is nonsense for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to talk as though there was no difference between a reduction in Income Tax and a reduction in insurance contributions. The incidence is different. A wise Chancellor of the Exchequer at the moment would be more interested in taking the burden off distressed trades than in reducing the Income Tax.
    Those are some of the considerations which have influenced my hon. Friends and me in opposing the proposal now before the Committee. We think that it is callous and unstatesmanlike and the giving of assistance where assistance is least required and withholding it where it is most required. We shall vote against the Clause, and we are satisfied that opinion in the country will support us. It is monstrous in these circumstances that the moneylender should be preferred to the unemployed. If the debt is to be carried, it ought to be carried as part of the general debt of the country and not imposed upon a fund already far too much circumscribed by the nature of our legislation, so placing burdens upon industry which industry cannot afford to carry at the moment, and which may prevent the Statutory Committee from raising children's allowances and giving all those other improvements which informed opinion in Great Britain is satisfied ought to be brought about at the earliest opportunity.
    7.35 p.m.
    Mr. CURRY: I apologise to the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) for interrupting his speech, but I was anxious that he should develop for my benefit the point which he was trying to make, which was, that the insured workers themselves would prefer a continuation of benefits along the present lines, with an extension of the period of covenanted benefit, than a diminution of contributions at the present time. I think that such an opinion coming from the hon. Member should be seriously

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    weighed by the Government and by the Committee which will in due course review the finances of the fund. During the Committee stage of the Bill a great deal of dissatisfaction has been expressed in different quarters at the working of the Guillotine, and we are obliged to the Government for recommitting the present Clause. The Debate which has taken place to-day is ample justification of the wisdom of the action which the Government have taken, but it cannot help but give rise in the minds of many of us to what might have happened if equally important Clauses which were passed without any discussion could have been recommitted. The dissatisfaction and misgiving which is bound to exist with regard to the operation of this Bill is not allayed by the failure of the Government to recommit the whole of the Clauses which escaped discussion altogether.
    Perhaps the most striking thing about the discussions on the Bill is the way in which public opinion has changed as the discussions have been prolonged. I remember that on the Second Reading, when I raised this very point about the debt and referred to the iniquity of commencing this scheme, I was greeted by all sorts of opposition from the benches opposite. We were told from the Front Bench that it was a Liberal principle to repay debt, and were asked how we would propose that this debt should be repaid. We find to-night that the desire to rid this fund of debt comes in very large measure from those sections of the House who were most anxious to support the Bill in its entirety when it was first introduced.
    One cannot help but take stock of the position. Some of us who regard it as a mistake to place this debt upon the fund when we are starting off with a new scheme of this sort cannot possibly be satisfied with what the House has been pleased to refer to as the concessions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is properly examined there is really nothing in the nature of a concession by the Treasury to this fund. The concessions will not mean an extra charge upon the Revenue, and they will not place any burden upon public funds, and therefore they are not, properly speaking, concessions at all. The Chancellor
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    has promised to see the Commissioners with a view to reducing the normal rate of interest, and the annual payment of £5,500,000 is to be reduced to £5,000,000, but that does not alter the relationship between the Treasury and the Unemployment Insurance Fund. It only prolongs the period during which the employed people of the future will be forced to pay for the unemployment of the past. That is all that it does. No concession will be of any value so long as no Amendment is made to the proviso in Clause 19 which gives the committee power to repay in excess of the amount stated in the Bill. The Financial Secretary, I think, will agree that the amount stated in the Bill is the minimum amount which it is being made obligatory upon the Insurance Committee to repay to the Treasury. It says that :
    "provided that nothing in this Sub-section shall be construed as preventing the application, … of sums out of the fund towards the discharge of the said liabilities in addition to the instalments therein mentioned."
    Therefore, the concession which has been announced from that Bench this afternoon simply means that the minimum amount has been reduced nominally, but the freedom of the committee to apply a surplus in quicker and speedier redemption of debt is not abated in any way, and we may find, if a surplus follows—we are told this afternoon that in all probability it will follow—that a larger amount than £5,000,000 can be applied on the recommendation of the Commission. That is our objection to the Clause. It is not merely that we are starting off a new scheme with an old debt, but we are giving to the committee complete power, without any effective Parliamentary control, to deal with the finances of the fund.
    That brings me to the real principle which is involved. Surely, if we start a scheme of this sort, even those of us who have opposed this Bill from its inception would desire nothing but good to come out of it. If the Bill works as its supporters hope and believe it will work, no one will be more delighted to see it working well than many of us who have opposed it on the Floor of the House. Certainly that is my opinion. I should be very glad afterwards to have all my fears removed by the actual experience of the working of the Bill. But if we look at

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    the effects which may follow from the introduction and the enactment of this Clause, in relation to what may follow in the administration of Part II of the Bill, there is the possibility, if Part II is worked as its supporters believe it will be worked, generously, efficiently and humanely by the Public Assistance Board, while at the same time under Part I of the Bill you have heavy contributions being paid by insured workers for benefits which appear to be inadequate, that we shall be placing in jeopardy the whole principle of insurance. Either Part II of the Bill is going to place in jeopardy the continuation of civil peace in this country, or it is going to kill, by its experience, the principle of insurance. There is great ground in the contention of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale that the public generally fail to appreciate the difference between unemployment benefits drawn from insurance and unemployment benefits drawn from the State. The higher the contribution, the sooner will the principle of insurance be questioned by public opinion. A contribution levied in this way is a direct tax upon industry, and it is also a direct tax upon employment itself. Therefore, the more onerous the tax, the more quickly will the notion grow that insurance is hardly worth while, and that you had better transfer this insured population to the Public Assistance Board and be done with it.
    This high contribution has the effect, too, not only of penalising industry in its competition with the industry of the world, but it has a direct detrimental effect in bringing into employment the juvenile population of this country. I had a personal experience of that a week or two ago in interviewing some boys who were required for temporary occupations, I found that more than one of those boys had been engaged in some sort of work until they became old enough to have an insurance card, and that then they had lost their employment. The lower you can get your contribution the less will that reluctance to continue juveniles in employment remain.
    So, on all grounds, I think the Government should have paid more heed to its own supporters this afternoon. After all, this Bill is really a great attempt by the Government to deal with the most
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    difficult of all our social problems. One would have thought that a Government that was making such a vast attempt would have had sufficient affection for its child to start it off free of debt. Looked at from every point of view, from the point of view of the finances of the country, from the point of view of maintaining in our State the principle of social insurance, from the point of view of relieving industry from a burden which is onerous at a time when industry is carrying more burdens than it should bear, the Government might have yielded to the general feeling of the House and of the community, and might have relieved this particular fund from this particular debt in order that the time maybe expedited when either industry can be relieved of its burdens or the insured unemployed get greater benfits in the period of their distress.
    7.48 p.m.
    Mr. BAILEY: I have listened with the greatest interest to the arguments of the hon. Member who has just spoken. He suggested that the Government should take this burden upon their shoulders in order that the beneficiaries of the Unemployment Fund might be more satisfied with the benefit they receive. When we consider the facts, what is there in that argument? On the present rate of benefit, making no allowance for future increase, in 26 weeks an unemployed man is receiving the equivalent of his contributions for 19 years. What other insurance in the world of a private character offers its beneficiaries terms half as generous as those? Therefore, I say that the mere taking away of this debt from the Unemployment Fund to the National Exchequer is not desirable. I am sure that those who are not now satisfied with what they get will be no more satisfied with what they will be likely to get. There are always those who think that insurance is a wicked thing, and that if you cannot work you should be paid as much as you would receive if you were at work. Those who believe that should be frank and say so : they should say that they do not believe in the insurance principle at all. But I am sure that you will never get anyone to like this scheme as an insurance scheme if they do not like it now when they are receiving the equivalent of 19 years' payments in 26 weeks' benefit. In dragging this subject into the mire of

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    political controversy we obscure how generously people are treated here in comparison with the people of other countries. While we may be gaining a little political advantage we are doing a great deal of harm to the character of the people.
    Mr. CURRY: I would remind the hon. Member that this matter was introduced by the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) this afternoon.
    Mr. BAILEY: I am not suggesting that even the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) is always without spot. I am sure he was on this occasion. It is a question of how an argument is put, and I was dealing with the argument of the hon. Member. I listened with the greatest interest to the speeches by the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) and the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan). Both of them used the words "callous," "meanness," and almost every other form of abuse that a wide vocabulary can contain in the case of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale. Does anyone think that if the Government were to concede everything that the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale is demanding his abuse would be any less intense? He accused those who spoke from the Government Benches of unadulterated hypocrisy. I could not help recalling the words in the Old Book : "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone."
    I cannot help thinking that these criticisms against the Government are purely Opposition criticisms. They are certainly not criticisms borne out by the facts. Here are the Government, which they accuse of being mean, able to restore the cuts which were imposed because of the lamentable inefficiency of the Government that the two hon. Members supported. That is a fact which we should try to drive home to the country more than we do. We have no need to be ashamed of this Bill on the ground of lack of generosity. We have every reason to say that it compares most favourably with what the Socialist party were able to do. At any rate we are restoring some of the things that they compelled to be put upon the very people of whom they now claim to be the servants. It makes me almost boil
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    with indignation when I hear the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale talking about the large things he would do if he got into office, and of our meanness, for I think of what he and his friends did, and what they will do again if they get an opportunity, for the unemployed and the rest of us. It ill becomes the hon. Member to accuse anyone of unadulterated hypocrisy.
    It is a very striking thing that the cautious finance in this as in other matters which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has pursued, criticised though that finance has been on the ground of meanness, has enabled him to be the one Chancellor of the Exchequer in the world to hand out benefits when everyone else has to impose burdens and increase taxes. There were two or three specific points that were given us in the speeches to which I have referred. First, it was asked why this money should be handed over to the unemployment committee. That only struck me as an additional reason for supporting the wise action of the Chancellor. It was said that the Chancellor was most unfair, that there should be no distinction between an insurable person and the person who is not insurable, that they should all be treated the same way. It is very easy indeed to make general observations of that kind and to suggest that those who do not agree with you are casting an aspersion upon the uninsurable worker. Of course, that is far from the truth. We all know that even in the Labour party there are different stars, each shining according to his own magnitude, and to suggest that one star shines rather less brightly than another would not be casting any aspersion at all.
    It is true that as a general principle those who have justified the receipt of benefit on the ground of insurance should have preferential treatment over those who come as recipients of charity. I represent a division in which there are as many unemployed as there are anywhere in England, and I am sure that one of the greatest criticisms they have against the treatment of the unemployed by successive Governments is that there is a failure to distinguish between the man who has been out of work perhaps all the time, and the man who has suddenly fallen on evil days. Among working people themselves there is a general

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    recognition that distinction should be drawn between the person in insurable benefit and the person receiving un-covenanted benefit. Any small increment that can be obtained is very much better kept where it is.
    Another criticism was that the Government were holding back this money because they did not want too many gifts to be given at once, that if the trade of this country should not go on as brightly as it is going now and there should be a relapse, they would have to come to the rescue. I do not know whether that is true, but if it is true surely the attitude of the Government is reasonable. Surely, it is a good deal better that they should keep some reserve with which to come to the assistance of this fund, if assistance is necessary, than that they should begin now a standard of benefit that they might not be able to maintain in the future. The whole matter seems to be this In the old days in politics it was an offence to bribe with other people's money, politically at any rate, but you were allowed to do it to an unlimited extent with your own. Now it is a very grave offence to use your own money to gain a vote, but as long as you are using only other people's money you are justified in your action. I cannot help feeling that it is going to be very bad for our country if we are to divide ourselves into two sections who are prepared to give the most irrespective of the justice of giving.
    When I take this Bill as a whole, and particularly this part of it, while there are portions which individual taste might reject, it is a very much better contribution to putting this thing on a permanent basis and a more generous basis, than that which the Labour party could possibly have done, carrying on the affairs of the country as they were doing. It is very unfair on every little point to criticise and to make party capital about what is, after all, a great attempt on the part of the Government to settle a question which deals with the fortunes of the most unfortunate part of our population, and an attempt to deal with it upon a non-party basis.
    7.59 p.m.
    Mr. BANFIELD: I must express my astonishment at the speech to which we have just listened. The hon. Member for
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    Gorton (Mr. Bailey), who represents an almost purely working-class constituency, says that he has a very considerable number of unemployed in his constituency. He has come here and has made a speech which would be repudiated by three out of four of the Conservative Members of the House. If the hon. Member would only go to his own constituency and repeat that speech, his constituents would at the very first opportunity venture a verdict on him which he would not desire. We have heard a lot of rather stupid arguments, if I may say so, such as that if a man becomes unemployed and draws 26 weeks' benefit, he receives back something like 90 years' contributions. I have had considerable experience in paying out trade union benefit, and I know that the man who has no reason to draw trade union benefit is the happy man; he is the man who is pleased and proud to pay his contributions, so as to enable his less fortunate brother to draw out considerably more than he has paid in or can ever hope to pay in. As a matter of fact, that must be the basis of an insurance scheme.
    We have heard it said too that unemployment benefit is positively harmful to those who receive it. I agree that when a man has been unemployed for a year, two years, or three years, as men have been in my constituency, it is harmful to the man, to his wife, and to his family, but it is no disgrace to the man, nor is it a stain upon his character. It is more an indictment of our present state of society, which refuses to enable a man who is willing to work to get work. This Clause places this great debt upon the Insurance-Fund, and I think it is admitted by everyone that the debt was incurred simply because the scheme in itself was not sound, because people were in need, because the Government felt that they must take some responsibility for them, because public opinion, in short, would not allow men and women to starve. It is absolutely true that the money that was paid out was paid out in the interests of the nation as a whole, and hon. Members know as well as I do that had it not been paid out, a far more serious state of things might have occurred in this country among working people than has occurred up to now.
    I am convinced that as this money was paid out in the interests of the nation, the present debt on the fund should have been made a national charge. You are

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    placing a burden on the fund for 37 or 40 years, and even the intelligence of the present Government Front Bench is unable to look forward 40 years and calculate that in that time nothing will happen to stop the payment of £5,000,000 a year out of the fund, and the fund still remain solvent. Everyone knows that the present condition of trade is not such as to make all of us look with confidence over even the next 10 years. It may be that the fund itself, in a comparatively short time, instead of showing a surplus may again show a deficiency, and if it is really intended that this scheme should be placed upon a basis of insurance, I think it would have been far better to have started with a clean sheet, to have had no debt on the fund at all, and to have used the accumulated reserves for the purpose of reserves, so that the money would be there to meet the lean years which inevitably must come.
    We saw to-day a very fine exhibition of tactics on the part of the Government. We saw an Amendment moved, and we saw the Chancellor of the Exchequer gracefully accept it. There has been such a strong opinion, not only in the House, but in the country, that something different should be done about this Clause that the Government have decided to bow in some measure to the public opinion created and have made paper concessions which, in my opinion, amount to very little at all. The Chancellor says, "Yes, you can pay £5,000,000 a year instead of £5,500,000, and we will see what we can do so far as the interest on the fund is concerned." But those things in themselves amount to very little, because, as has been pointed out so often, there is nothing to stop the Board of Control, who have it in their power, paying more in repayment if they wish, and there is no guarantee yet that actually the fund will only pay 3 per cent. interest instead of 3½ per cent.
    On these benches we feel that the debt should not have been placed upon the fund, in view of the fact that here is a Bill which we are told is to settle the whole question of unemployment insurance for many years to come. If the Government believe that unemployment can be dealt with on the basis of insurance, they have done their best in this
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    Bill to make it almost impossible for this to be a real insurance scheme at all, and someone or other in the not far distant future will be coming to this House and confessing that the whole scheme has broken down. I notice that very urgent appeals are made by financial leaders that there should be some reduction in contributions, and I suggest that for the most part they are more concerned with getting a reduction in the employers' contributions than almost anything else that has been mentioned to-day. That is the real and fundamental point that has been made from those benches. They have said, "Let us get contributions reduced; let us take a burden from the employers, or from industry." The workers, however, are entitled to have some say in this matter, as they pay 10d. a week out of very small wages, and many of them in my constituency pay 10d. out of their full week's wage of only 35s.
    I put it to the Committee that the badly-paid workers—and they are in this country by the million—are making greater sacrifices, so far as this fund is concerned, than any other section of the community, yet they themselves would not desire to have their contributions reduced if it meant worsening the conditions of men who have been out of employment for a considerable time through no fault of their own. It has been said that in some way or another it is the best men who have been left in employment, but that is not at all true. Some of the best workmen in this country have been unemployed for 18 months, two years, and even three years—skilled workmen and craftsmen—and hon. Members who come here and talk like that do not recognise that the machine displaces skilled men and that there is no place for them again in industry. If it comes to a question of some men being better than others, I am of the opinion that it is not the best men who have been left in employment; it is rather the best men who have been displaced from their employment because of the introduction of machinery, because of new methods, and because of the working of our social system.
    When the hon. Member for Gorton spoke about these people on transitional benefit receiving charity from the nation, I was astonished. He said he was indignant about something or other. I

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    am indignant to think that men who have done service to the community, who have worked when they have had the chance to work, and who are only too willing to work again should be looked down upon and scorned as if they were receiving charity, simply because, unfortunately, they have been receiving transitional benefit. I put it to the Committee that the unemployed man is the victim of circumstances, and it is not his fault that he is unemployed. He is entitled to be treated as a human being, and he should never be sneered at, at least by a man who pretends to represent a working-class constituency, and told that he is simply receiving charity. The Government have a tremendous majority inside this House, but I suggest that they have not got that majority in the country, and that when we take this Bill to the country for their verdict, the Government will not feel quite so happy about it as they do now. The country will declare that if the Government were in earnest in bringing in an Unemployment Insurance Bill, and if they believed in the doctrine of insurance as the basis of unemployment pay, they should have shouldered the burden of the past and started the fund free from debt.
    The Bill in many respects is so unsatisfactory that those Members who believe that the concessions which the Chancellor has so gracefully given them this evening are likely to please public opinion outside will find themselves woefully mistaken. It is true that it does not take very much to please some hon. Members. They go away and say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made a very fine concession, but unemployed men and workers will realise that what has been done to-day has been no help at all. The position of the party on these benches is clear. We are against the payment of this debt from the Unemployment Insurance Fund, and we will fight against it. We are not pleased with the concession that has been made, and we are not inclined to say, "Thank you kindly, good Sir, for what you have done." We declare that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done nothing at all to help the great mass of the unemployed and to put this Bill on a sound insurance basis, and for those reasons we shall be justified up to the hilt, and the country will justify us, in going into the Lobby against this Clause.
    8.15 p.m.
    Mr. MOLSON: The hon. Member, like the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan), has criticised those of us who have tried to persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take a more generous view than he has done, and because by putting down certain Amendments we have succeeded in obtaining some small concessions. The Labour party have done nothing to get concessions, but have declared their hostility to the whole Clause. I am perfectly prepared to meet the hon. Member anywhere in the country and to justify the action which Conservative Members have taken in trying to draw up Amendments which it was possible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to accept, as a result of which we have been able to achieve something for the cause of the unemployed. To adopt a purely negative and, on many occasions, a merely obstructive attitude such as the official Opposition have adopted is not in the interests of those whom they claim to represent.
    I find myself in some agreement with the Opposition in thinking that the concession which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made is not really a very substantial one. Had we not ourselves drawn up those Amendments I think the Government themselves would have been obliged to make some such alteration in the Bill. When the Bill was orginally introduced the fund was not more than just solvent, and at the present time it is paying off debt at a very satisfactory and very rapid rate. As the whole finance of the Bill was calculated upon a debt of £115,000,000 I do not think the Government could have put it upon the Statute Book if, by that time, the debt had been reduced, as we hope it will have been, by something like £15,000,000, and have still charged the fund with the sinking fund which was considered necessary when the debt was at a higher total.
    I remain impenitently of the view that it is not fair and equitable that the whole of the debt should be made chargeable to the fund. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has pointed out that £76,000,000 of the debt was incurred in the two years during which the Socialist Government were in office and when transitional payments had already been taken over as a charge upon the Exchequer; but even

    251
    he had to admit that in the earlier years, when the debt was at first being accumulated, certain portions of the debt were being incurred in what is called un-covenanted benefit, and even about half the transitional payments were being paid out of the fund. Therefore, a considerable portion of the debt was incurred by the making of payments which to-day are recognised as being the responsibility of the Exchequer.
    In the case of standard benefit also, it is perfectly arguable that even there some of the debt which has been incurred ought not really to rest upon the fund. The Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out the other day, when another Clause was under discussion, that in the Act of 1920 the responsibility was imposed on the Treasury of making certain that the fund did not become insolvent, and that they were to make certain of its solvency either by increasing contributions or by reducing benefits. In his speech this afternoon the Chancellor of the Exchequer only referred to the possibility of increasing contributions. He said that those people who were in the fund and had not had their contributions raised as soon as they should have been raised, had to that extent benefited during those years when the debt was being accumulated and, therefore, it was fair that they should now be called upon to make a contribution towards its redemption. I suggest that where the real blame lay was that the cut in benefit was not made as soon as it should have been. It was only when this Government came into power, after the financial crisis had arisen, that a check was put on the accumulation of the debt which, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted on another occasion, has been due to maladministration and to the fact that successive Governments—especially the last Socialist Government, because the largest amount of debt was accumulated at that time—have shown a regrettable unwillingness to adopt those strict actuarial principles which are now being applied, and will be applied in future.
    Therefore, in regard to payments which were made in respect of extended benefit, in regard to a certain part of the transitional payments, and in regard to some of the money which was paid in standard
    252
    benefit, there is a very clear equitable claim that a portion of the debt should be undertaken by the Exchequer. We arrive at the same conclusion if we look at the matter from another point of view. If it had not been that the principle of unemployment insurance benefit was stretched in order to pay benefit to persons who were not strictly entitled to have any benefit, or if it had not been paid out at too high a rate, there would have been an equivalent burden either upon the ratepayer or upon the taxpayer. Therefore, from both points of view it seems to me that there is a strong equitable claim that some part of the debt should be undertaken by the Exchequer. There is a still stronger claim under this Bill, because by Clause 3 the Chancellor of the Exchequer will get a certain benefit by the extension of standard benefit to a maximum period of 52 weeks. Here it can again be said that some of the money which is now in the fund is being applied to a purpose which if it were not for Clause 3 would be a liability which would fall directly on the Exchequer.
    I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not seen his way to accept the force of these arguments, and I am particularly sorry that although in so many matters, especially in the more unpopular features of the Bill, the Government have relied very largely upon the authority of the Royal Commission on Unemployment Insurance, in this case where the Royal Commission came to the definite conclusion that it would be inequitable to put the whole debt of the fund upon the fund, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not seen fit to follow them. In a reply to the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) the other day, he pointed out that the contribution which was being paid by the Exchequer was larger than was recommended by the Royal Commission. He suggested that the two things must go together and that as the contribution being made by the Exchequer was larger, the claim that the Exchequer should undertake part of the debt did not arise. He took the view that the two things were intimately linked together. If he looks at the Report of the Royal Commission I think he will find that that is not the case, and that Mr. Trouncer only took that view. A footnote makes it clear

    253
    that it was not the majority of the Royal Commission but one dissentient who thought that there should be any connection between the two.
    In spite of what the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale has said and in spite of the gibes which he has directed at the supporters of the Government, we feel that we have achieved something useful to-day, that we have done something to reduce the burden on the Unemployment Fund, which will be to the advantage of the unemployed. Although it is a small concession and one for which I cannot feel any great gratitude, I thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for it, and I shall not at any rate vote as I had intended against the Clause standing part.
    8.26 p.m.
    Mr. GORDON MACDONALD: Hon. Members on this side of the House fail to see that the concession made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be of any advantage to the unemployed, and as long as Sub-section (3) of Clause 18 remains in the Bill it cannot be of any advantage. It says that if the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee at any time considers that there are sufficient funds available to increase the instalments, they may do so. As long as that paragraph remains we fail to see what advantage this so-called concession can be to the unemployed. Our attitude is clear. Who should bear the present debt the unemployed, or the whole nation? The debt was incurred principally because of the distress throughout the country over a prolonged period. The insured population throughout that period made a substantial contribution towards the maintenance of those in distress, indeed, they made a bigger contribution than any other section of the nation, and we consider that they have discharged their responsibility towards the unemployed. For the Government to say now that there is a certain amount of the cost which they failed to meet and they are going to allow them to meet it during the next 37 or 40 years is wholly unfair to this section of the nation. If it was argued that the insured population had not done its share towards meeting the problem of the unemployed, and that the Government were going to give them another 40 years in which to discharge the remainder of their responsibility, I could understand it, but I do
    254
    not expect the Financial Secretary to say that the insured population have not made their fair contribution towards meeting this problem.
    The right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) emphasised the manner in which this debt had accumulated. I was rather surprised that he should feel so self-satisfied with what was said in reply, and I am also surprised that the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Molson) should feel satisfied with the reply. All that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said was, "I am impressed by what has been said. The speeches I have heard do carry out what we as a Government thought might be done. We think we might lessen the annual contribution of the Unemployed Fund towards this debt and so we propose to prolong the period it will have to pay the debt." There is no value in that concession, at least, we fail to see any value, and it is not because we are not prepared to give credit where credit is due. It does not in any way meet our objection to the Clause. The hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Bailey) tried to show that 26 weeks' benefit was equal to 19 years' contributions. If that is the mentality which is going to decide the treatment of this section of the population, who are through no fault of their own unable to find a job, then I am not sure that representative Government is the best form of Government. If the representatives of the people in this House are going to argue that since benefits for a certain period are equal in amount to contributions for a much longer period and that therefore no one has any cause for complaint, if that is going to be their attitude, then those who elected them will feel dissatisfied with their representation. The hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield) was quite right, even the Tory party will repudiate the assumptions underlying the argument of the hon. Member for Gorton.
    The argument of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) did separate those who have kept their jobs from those who have lost them, but his reference to the persons who keep their jobs as being the cream of the working classes was a most unfair reflection on those who have lost them. The miners in Lancashire who are out of work are equally as good as the men in work, and the miners themselves would be the first

    255
    to admit that their comrades who have lost their jobs are just as good men as they themselves. The Bill itself is not quite free from putting a stigma on the person who has been unemployed for a long period. The differentiation in the treatment of a man who has been unable to get work for a certain number of weeks as against the man who does, is, in our opinion, unjustifiable. I can never see why a man who has been out of work for 27 weeks should receive different treatment from the man who has been out of work for seven weeks. It is no use saying that we should betray the principle of insurance because it has never been applied. Those who have been out of work for 27 weeks are in far greater need of unemployment benefit than the man who has been out for seven weeks, and I can never understand on what basis this differentiation is made.
    The Clause is very objectionable. Does the Parliamentary Secretary think that its deletion would make the Bill worse? I agree that from a Conservative point of view this is a genuine attempt to deal with a difficult problem, and I should not expect a Conservative Government to go any further than the Bill proposes. But how would the Bill be made worse if this Clause were deleted? It is a start by the Government to deal in a comprehensive way with a most difficult problem, and if the Government are anxious for it to be a success then they should place this huge debt in its entirety on the Exchequer. The Royal Commission made many recommendations with which we on this side do not agree but we do agree with the suggestion that to place the whole of the debt on the Unemployment Fund would be inequitable.
    We think that if the fund is to have any chance and if the better treatment promised to the unemployed is not to be considerably delayed, this Clause should be deleted. Our case is that the workers, both the insured section of those in employment, and the insured section of those out of employment, have made their contribution to dealing with the fund and that it is unfair to continue their contribution in this manner. It not only delays that better treatment of the unemployed to which they are entitled but it makes it impossible either for contributions to be reduced or for benefits to
    256
    be increased. I agree with other hon. Members that if the workers themselves had to choose they would prefer to maintain the contribution at the high figure of 10d. per week for an adult rather than reduce the benefits payable to those who are unemployed. They would also prefer to keep the contribution at 10d. and to abolish the means test than to retain the means test in operation with reduced contributions. The placing of this debt on the fund prevents either reduction of contributions or increase of benefits. Hence we on this side have only one course open to us and that is to vote against the inclusion of the Clause in the Bill.
    8.37 p.m.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
    We are discussing a Clause dealing with a very important financial question and there is no representative of the Treasury present. Whatever differences there may be between hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench and myself, I hold that they are entitled to the courtesy which is usually extended to an Opposition and I think that for the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to have gone out while an hon. Member was speaking from the Opposition Front Bench was not courteous. We are entitled to the presence of a representative of the Treasury on this occasion. We on this side are entitled to the courtesy which would be given to any other Opposition and it is most unfair for the Financial Secretary deliberately to walk out, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not present and only the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour is here to answer our arguments. I take it as an insult to the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. G. Macdonald) that the Financial Secretary should walk out in the middle of the hon. Member's speech. That is not good for Parliament; it is not good for the Financial Secretary himself and it is not good for the other Members of the House of Commons. I am not going to argue the case or go into the merits of this question until we have a representative of the Treasury present.
    Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
    The Committee divided : Ayes, 62; Noes, 208.

    Division No. 226.]

    AYES.

    [3.54 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Clayton, Sir Christopher

    Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

    Albery, Irving James

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Goff, Sir Park

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

    Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

    Goldie, Noel B.

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Apsley, Lord

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd. N.)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Cooke, Douglas

    Granville, Edgar

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Grimston, R. V.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Croft, Brigadler-General Sir H.

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C)

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

    Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Galnsb'ro)

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Bllndell, James

    Cross, R. H.

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Borodale, Viscount

    Culverwell, Cyrll Tom

    Hales, Harold K.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon)

    Boulton, W. W.

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Dickle, John P.

    Harbord, Arthur

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Dixey, Arthur C. N.

    Hartlngton, Marquess of

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Hartland, George A.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berke., Newb'y)

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Dunglass, Lord

    Heligers, Captain F. F. A.

    Buchan, John

    Eady, George H.

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

    Buchan-Hepburn, p. G. T.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Bullock, Captain Malcolm

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Burnett, John George

    Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

    Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Calne, G. R. Hall.

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool)

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Howard, Tom Forrest

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (P'rtsm'th, S.)

    Filnt, Abraham John

    Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    Hurd, Sir Percy

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Blrm., W)

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston)

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

    Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton le-Spring)

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leolric

    Gauit, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

    Jamleson, Douglas

    Christie, James Archibald

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Jesson, Major Thomas E.

    Clarke, Frank

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.)

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Munro, Patrick

    Smithers, Waldron

    Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Knight, Holford

    Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

    Soper, Richard

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Lamb. Sir Joseph Quinton

    Nunn, William

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Peaks, Captain Osbert

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Pearson, William G.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.)

    Penny, Sir George

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

    Leckle, J. A.

    Parkins, Walter R. D.

    Stevenson, James

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Petherick, M.

    Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Stones, James

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bllst'n)

    Storey, Samuel

    Levy, Thomas

    Pickering, Ernest H.

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Lewis, Oswald

    Potter, John

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton.

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe.

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G.(Wd. G'n)

    Pybus, Sir Percy John

    Sutcllffe, Harold

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'ndsw'th)

    Ralkes, Henry V. A. M.

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Mabane, William

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. C. G. (Partick)

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Todd, A. L. S (Kingswinford)

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham.

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Train, John

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Raid, William Allan (Derby)

    Tree, Ronald

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Remer, John R.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Rickards, George William

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Macmillan, Maurice Harold

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Waterhause, Captain Charles

    Magnay, Thomas

    Runclman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Maitland, Adam

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tslde)

    Weymouth, Viscount

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Salmon, Sir Isidore

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Salt, Edward W.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Milne, Charles

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Wills. Wilfrid D.

    Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chlsw'k)

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Scone, Lord

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Morris. Owen Temple (Cadiff. E.)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —

    Morrison, William Shaphard

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Sir Victor Warrender and Mr. Womersley.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Banfield, John William

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Thorne, William James

    Batey, Joseph

    Healy, Cahir

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

    Buchanan, George

    Jenkins, Sir William

    West, F. R.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Daggar, George

    Lawson, John James

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Leonard, William

    Williams. Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Dobble, William

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Thomas (York. Don Valley)

    Edwards, Charles

    Lunn, William

    Wilmot, John

    George Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Parkinson, John Allan

    Mr. G. Macdonald and Mr. D. Graham.

    Division No. 227.]

    AYES.

    [8.40 p.m.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyko

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Milner, Major James

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Owen, Major Goronwy

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Banfield, John William

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Pickering, Ernest H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Buchanan, George

    Healy, Cahir

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Cape, Thomas

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    West, F. R.

    Curry, A. C.

    Kirkwood, David

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Daggar, George

    Lawson, John James

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Leonard, William

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Dobble, William

    Lunn, William

    Edwards, Charles

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —

    Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Mr. G. Macdonald and Mr. D. Graham.

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Mallalleu, Edward Lancelot

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

    NOES.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Llverp'l, W.)

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Mitchell. Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Applln, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd. N.)

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolle

    Greene, William P. C.

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Bailey, Eric Alfred George

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Unlver'tlos)

    Barrie, Sir Charles Couper

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Morrison, William Shepherd

    Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

    Hales, Harold K.

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Botterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

    Hammersley, Samuel S.

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Bllndell, James

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Boulton, W. W.

    Hanley, Dennis A

    Nunn, William

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    O'Donovan, Dr. William James

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Harbord, Arthur

    Oman Sir Charles William C.

    Bralthwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hn. William G. A.

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Peake, Captain Osbert

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Pearson, William G.

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Peat, Charles U.

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Hornby, Frank

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Burnett, John George

    Horobin, Ian M.

    Petherick, M.

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Peto, Sir Basll E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

    Potter, John

    Casels, James Dale

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)

    Radford, E. A.

    Christie, James Archibald

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Clarke, Frank

    Hurd, Sir Percy

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Clayton, Sir Christopher

    Jamleson, Douglas

    Rankin. Robert

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Jesson, Major Thomas E.

    Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

    Remer, John R.

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

    Rickards, George William

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Lamb. Sir Joseph Quinton

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Law, Richard K. (Hull. S. W.)

    Ross, Ronald D.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Lewis, Oswald

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tslde)

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

    Russell, R. J. (Eddlsbury)

    Cross, R. H.

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

    Salt, Edward W.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Llewellin, Major John J.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Dawson, Sir Phillp

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Dickle, John P.

    Lovat-Fraser. James Alexander

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Mabane, William

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Dunglass, Lord

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Eady, George H.

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

    Elmley, Viscount

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Shute, Colonel J. J.

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Macmillan, Maurice Harold

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Magnay, Thomas

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast)

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool)

    Maitland, Adam

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Smithers, Waldron

    Fleming, Edward Lascelles

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Somerville. D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton. E.)

    Soper, Richard

    Gautt, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

    Mills. Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Gillett. Sir George Masterman

    Milne. Charles

    Spens, William Patrick

    Goff, Sir Park

    Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tfd & Chisw'k)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

    258

    259

    Stevenson, James

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Wills. Wilfrid D.

    Stones, James

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Wilson, Lt. Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

    Storey, Samuel

    Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Wallace, John (Duntermline)

    Withers, Sir John James

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    Captain Austin Hudson and Mr. Womersley.

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Whyte, Jardine Bell

    Templeton, William P.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Question again proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    8.47 p.m.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I rise to continue the discussion on this Clause. Whatever effect the concession which the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced will have on the Insurance Fund, it will have little effect on the conditions of the unemployed. The Committee to-day has been discussing questions of insurance and insurance rights, and one of the points in the discussion that has struck me is the fact that this fund has never been on an insurance basis at all. As a matter of fact, large sections of the working-class are outside the Insurance Fund and a great number of those who are outside are the best lives. The whole of the Police Force and the school teachers, and a large section of municipal employés are outside the insurance scheme, and they comprise the best lives from an insurance point of view. As long as large sections of people who should properly be inside the scheme are outside, we have no right to describe it as insurance at all. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A Bevan) said something on which he was challenged which I should like to repeat. He said that the working-people of this country would sooner have the 10d. per week contribution imposed on them, high as that premium is, than have it lowered at the expense of benefits to their fellow workmen. I want to subscribe to that view whole-heartedly.
    I want to refer to the agitation behind the Amendments on the Order Paper, and I hope I shall not be accused of being unfair to my colleagues if I say that I do not think that agitation would have been anything like so strong had it not been that employers are affected equally with the workpeople. Employers' manifestos have contained the constant demand for a reduction in their contributions. There has not been from the trade unions, from the Trades Union Congress or from any responsible body of
    260
    workpeople, a single demand for a reduced contribution. Since 1931 when the contributions were raised, there has been no demand from any section of the working-people to have their contributions lowered. Such a demand does not even come from non-political unions such as that presided over by Mr. Spencer. On the other hand, the Engineering Employers' Association through their leading officials have asked for a reduced contribution, as also have the Federation of British Industries and large bodies like chambers of commerce. I should not mind the agitation if it meant what used to be a part of the Labour movement's policy, namely, that the system should be non-contributory. If it became non-contributory, I would accept the employers' recommendation, but I see behind the agitation for smaller contributions a desire either to lower benefits or to keep benefits from being improved. The first charge on the fund ought not to be the lowering of contributions but the improving of benefits.
    We argue wrongly that we have restored the cuts. We have not restored the cuts. We have given to those who are covered by insurance the amount of money that they formerly had, but that is not restoring the cuts. The number of people now covered by insurance is less by one-third than was covered in 1931. You are cutting down from 72 weeks' insurance benefit to 26 weeks. It means, in fact, that only those in insurance will have the cut restored. Those outside insurance are not safeguarded in that way. Consequently, you have restored the cuts only to those who are inside insurance. The Parliamentary Secretary nods his head. I am dealing with the point raised by the Amendment. We are restoring the cuts only to those covered by the 26 weeks, that is, those who came under what was formerly the normal practice, namely, 72 weeks or 30 stamps in two years, which allowed a person to draw benefit for 72 weeks. That means that the numbers affected are considerably less, and we have

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    restored the cuts only to those affected by the 26 weeks. Other cuts were imposed on the working classes. The means test was a cut to them. It affected the amount of money received in a large number of cases, and was therefore a cut. So there were three cuts on the unemployed—the amount they received, the amount of standard benefit they received and the means test. We have restored only one out of the three cuts, and before we can talk of restoring the cuts to the unemployed we must restore the other cuts.
    I want to challenge the Financial Resolution on other grounds. The chief case of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day was that of the £106,000,000, of which £6,000,000 has now been paid, at least two-thirds was accumulated on behalf of those receiving standard benefit. He did not tell us this, that it was standard benefit at that time but not standard benefit as we know it now. It was standard benefit for 72 weeks, not for 26 weeks. If we calculated it on the present basis it would not be two-thirds now, but much less, because the number now affected is considerably less, and I question whether one-third of the debt could be said to have been accumulated by standard benefit. The point is that the insured contributor may have taken on the debt and may have not taken on the debt. The debt was put on to the insured contributor without his having any say one way or the other. It was the House of Commons which fixed the debt, in succeeding Parliaments; it is not the Labour party or the Conservative party alone who are concerned, but all parties. Therefore, to me, the mathematical argument arising over one-third or two-thirds does not matter. The debt was contracted by Parliament putting it on to the fund, and Parliament ought to take it off the fund.
    What the ordinary man or woman cannot understand is this : Great Britain has, for good or ill, cancelled chunks of debt all over the world. We have given chunks of debt to France, Germany and Italy. Even in this Parliament we have raised loans for Austria which will never be repaid. The ordinary man in the street asks, "How is it that all these countries can get their debts cancelled whereas I cannot get this debt taken off my back?" He says : "How is it that I see that under the Export Credit Scheme and other schemes great companies contract
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    debts and nobody pursues them with the ruthlessness with which we working men are pursued?" He says "How is it that we do not insist on other countries paying their debts to us while our poor people are being asked to pay this debt to the last penny?" Those are questions which I find it difficult to answer. He says "I fought in the War, but I am taxed for this debt. If you had not paid the money to the unemployed you would have had disorder and have had to pay a police bill and a criminal bill. Seeing that it was an insurance premium for your whole social system, why am I left to pay it?" That is another question I have great difficulty in answering, because it was not so much an insurance scheme for the working man as an insurance scheme for the wellbeing of the State and the community.
    He says, further, "Here is a new scheme brought in by a new type of Government, a scheme based, they say, on something like insurance conceptions, a scheme to a large extent wiping out the past and letting us start anew. Why, it the past is to be buried, are not the whole of the past debts buried as well?" I confess that I see no answer to that. These working men are paying their 10d. a week. We hear about the difficulties of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I do not under-estimate them. I often think that many of the Chancellor's own supporters are very mean. On the one hand they badger him to undertake expenditure and then go for him with vehemence if he dares to say that further taxation must be imposed. It shows very little consideration for their own Chancellor. These working people pay their 10d. a week, as the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield) said, sometimes out of a wage of only £2 a week, and they do it with little grumbling. The Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot produce one resolution from working men asking for the contribution to be lowered, yet 10d. is a large contribution to take from them, even in the case of skilled men. In my own trade the wages of skilled men are about £3 1s. a week, and out of that they pay 10d. for unemployment insurance, 9d. for health insurance and 2s. to their union, plus infirmary contributions. Every week there is a tax of at least 4s. out of every £3 they earn, yet they pay, and they never grumble. But

    263
    here in the House of Commons we hear rich men grumbling about 5s. in the pound for Income Tax.
    The sacrifice which it is said we are asking of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is nothing to the sacrifice which the working people have made each week, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer might take the step we ask if only as a tribute to those men for the years of sacrifice they have made. I was not present when the Income Tax was discussed during the Budget Debates, but I read the discussion. Hon. Members were rising, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead and others, to say what great difficulties we were facing, and of the need to reduce taxes. I have listened to Income Tax payers who are being relieved talking about their difficulties in regard to their school children. The ordinary worker who pays 2s. a week has difficulties greater than any of those people, and yet he has never complained. He has never said a word—not because the burden upon him is not great, but because he has felt that if he said a word it might be construed to mean that he was in favour of doing something wrong to his unemployed fellow-workers, so he has remained silent and paid the money. He has gone quietly about, and he will go on doing so.
    The only thing he feels to be unfair at the moment is that the nation should not do something for him. He feels that the nation would do something decent if it wiped out this £100,000,000 of debt. [Laughter.] Hon. Members laugh. If we were talking of a foreign country, instead of our own people, who had said that they were not going to pay their debt, and had made trouble for us, hon. Members would find 100 excuses for wiping out the debt. If it were a rich company which had received export credits but had gone bankrupt, they would also find an excuse for wiping out the debt. I am not going into the export credits question, but hon. Members know that vast sums have been advanced. The workers say : "You would do it for those people; why not do it for us?" Is there anything deadly in it? I confess that I cannot find an answer.
    I do not want to follow the hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) in the word that he let slip, because I feel
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    sometimes that it is unfair to pick up a thing which a man has said. I have said things which I would not like to have picked up. It was a remark which might be accused of unfairness, but, taking the basis of what the right hon. Gentleman said, it was that those men needed it. The men do not ask for it. They are asking for three simple things. Talk about employer's difficulties, what are their difficulties compared with the difficulties of the wife of an unemployed man trying to rear a child on 2s. per week? Their difficulties are trivial. Let them try to rear and give a decent life to a child on 2s. a week. Theirs are no difficulties. Their difficulties are nothing compared with those of the ordinary working fellow, who only wants three simple things. He desires the abolition of the means test, because he has seen homes broken up and cruelties imposed. He wants children's allowances increased, and he wants the benefits extended. If he gets those three things done, and the debt wiped out as a means of doing that, he will continue his payment of 10d. per week. He might find it hard, but he will go on paying with the knowledge that he is making a contribution and a sacrifice in order to make less fortunate people a little happier.
    9.10 p.m.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: There are two points which have been dealt with by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) with which I desire to deal. I speak for myself and I cannot speak for my hon. Friends when I say that I came to the conclusion more than two years ago that we should be wise to change the insurance scheme into a non-contributory scheme. It is no balanced scheme when you have a three-tier system, in which you have a man 26 weeks upon a certain rate of benefit, then put him on Part II, and afterwards in other circumstances transfer him to public assistance. To say that you are operating an insurance scheme is, I think, a false claim. I do not think that this is the occasion to follow that line of thought, but it has some reference to one other point to which the hon. Member for Gorbals referred. Last week a very interesting Debate was opened by the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) upon the incidence of employers' contributions upon the burden of unemployment. I do not say for a moment

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    that I would put a lowering of contributions before the raising of certain types of benefit, but there is a real point, which was made by the Noble Lord and also by the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne).
    During my journey to London in the train to-day, I was speaking to a gentleman to whom I wrote last week asking him to tell me what he paid in employers' contributions in health and unemployment insurance. He sent me a letter telling me that the figure was £7,500 per annum. It is just as well that we should remember that that kind of thing is encouraging such men to employ workers upon overtime rather than to take on new men. It is a serious point. Like the hon. Member for Gorbals, I have no time for those who talk about doing away with the employer's contribution while still retaining the employe's contribution. The subject is well worth study, as it is affected by this Clause. The Clause not only takes on the debt of £115,000,000—or £106,000,000—but there is one very important provision in the Clause which I will read. It is :
    "Provided that nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preventing the application, on the recommendation of the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee, of sums out of the fund towards the discharge of the said liabilities in addition to the instalments therein mentioned."
    The Chancellor has given absolutely nothing away this afternoon in accepting the Amendment moved by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead. Under this provision, when the £5,000,000 per annum is met, the remaining balance can be taken each year, if the Statutory Committee suggests it, to wipe out further blocks of debt. I should have liked to see those Members who put their names to the Amendment going much further and moving an Amendment to delete that particular thing. It not only affects the benefits of those who are drawing unemployment benefit, but it can very seriously affect any lowering of contributions, and provide an incentive to people to employ labour on overtime rather than take on new workers.
    The gentleman to whom I was speaking said, "If I were to take on extra hands, I should have to get more machinery. I am not prepared to put extra capital into my business and take on more hands, and then", because I do
    266
    so, be punished in the contributions which I make towards health and unemployment insurance. "On those grounds, I believe that the incidence of the contributory scheme makes against the taking on of extra men. As far as I understand—unfortunately, I did not happen to be in the Chamber at the moment when the Chancellor was making his speech—the only effect of what he has granted this afternoon is to extend the time for repayment. It does not seem to me that, so far as the Exchequer is concerned, those concessions are going to make one penny of difference. Personally, I think that this is one of the worst Clauses in the Bill. The debt was created, not by meeting contractual obligations, but by meeting extended benefits for uninsured people, and now this debt, created for uninsured people, is being put on to the insured people. Surely that is a very wrong thing to do. So far as I am able to see, children yet unborn will be called upon to pay this debt. I can see no logical reason why the subscriptions of those who are now in employment should be used to pay off debt which they themselves have not created.
    All Governments have done this. Governments of the Conservative party and of the Labour party have continued payments to those who were not insured, and I suggest, accordingly, that this debt ought to have been treated as a national charge. What is being done is to shift the whole burden, which should be borne by the nation, on to a section—the employed section of the community. I cannot understand, and so far as I have been able to gather from the Debates there has been no adequate explanation, why the recommendation of the Royal Commission was not carried out. The Royal Commission suggested quite definitely that two-thirds of this debt should be taken over by the State. I do not know whether the Chancellor referred to it in his speech; if he did I beg his pardon; I am sorry that I was called out at the time——
    Mr. LAWSON: You did not miss anything.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: I am not one of those who are guilty of unfairness to the other side, even if they disagree with me. Many of the recommendations of the

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    Royal Commission have been carried out in trying to make the Bill a workable Bill and in some respects to make the Unemployment Insurance Fund solvent, and I think it would have been much fairer from every point of view if at least two-thirds of this debt had been taken over. It would then have been borne by the general community, and it was the general community who spent it, through their Government representatives. Instead of that, those people who happen to be in employment, and therefore paying insurance contributions, are being asked to carry the burden of the unemployed for whom they have no responsibility. Personally, I shall not have the slightest doubt about going into the Lobby and voting against this Clause, and I am certain that, if a free Vote of the House were allowed on it, there would be an absolute majority for the recommendations of the Royal Commission being carried into effect.
    9.20 p.m.
    Major NATHAN: I am not so rash as to suggest that a Government is under any compulsion to accept the recommendations in the Report of a Royal Commission, but I think the House of Commons is entitled, when a recommendation is rejected, to have from the Government some explanation more convincing and satisfying than any that has been given in the course of these Debates. As I have listened to the Debates, I have been irresistibly reminded of an old legal maxim, that you cannot at the same time both approbate and reprobate a contract. You cannot, that is to say, take the benefits without accepting the obligations; or, conversely, you cannot be asked to accept the burdens unless you are also given the advantage of the benefits. That is not only a legal maxim, but is now a generally accepted axiom of everyday life. Here, however, under this Clause of the Bill, the insured unemployed are being asked to accept the burden of this debt without any possibility of ever deriving any advantage from that obligation. It is true, of course, that there may be some, their number increasingly few, who, at the time when the debt was incurred, had some advantage from it; but it is abundantly clear that, as the years pass, the obligation to repay this debt will fall upon people who
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    not only had no part of the advantage, but were not even alive when the obligation was incurred. In ordinary life, whether a man will accept a burden or not is in most cases a matter for his own judgment, but in this case the obligation is placed compulsorily upon the insured without their having any possibility of reaping the advantage.
    I am not suggesting for a moment that the sovereign authority of Parliament is not adequate to impose any kind of obligation upon every citizen, but time and again it has been said in the House of Commons, not merely in these Debates but over a long period of years—indeed, ever since the insurance scheme was first instituted—that, although not a contract, for Parliament cannot contract with any of its citizens, yet the insurance scheme is in the nature of a contract, imposing upon the State obligations which are of their nature contractual, obligations to find a certain amount of benefit in return for certain contributions paid. Nevertheless, in this case the implied contract has in effect been broken, or I would say, rather, is being broken, by placing upon the Unemployment Insurance Fund an obligation which has no relation to it regarded as an insurance fund.
    The truth of the matter is that, just as this debt is not an obligation of the Insurance Fund, so it is no debt to the Treasury at all, but is in reality merely a convenient book entry—simply a writing in a ledger. The money was not raised from the lenders on the security of the fund; it was raised from the public upon the security of the national finances. No person who lent money which afterwards became included in this fund, wrongly, as I conceive, called the debt, looked to the fund either for repayment or for interest; he looked to the Exchequer, and exclusively to the Exchequer. So little did these lenders look to the fund that they did not know, and, in the nature of the case, could not know, the purpose to which the actual sums they subscribed were ultimately to be devoted.
    The debt lies outside the province of insurance altogether. Even those who cling most firmly to the scheme of this Clause would not question that. The scheme in its essence contemplates insurance—perhaps not in any event a very apt term in relation to a scheme of this kind, but one that has become common

    269
    form nowadays—against temporary unemployment and seasonal changes. It has been said time and again that the scheme was never framed with the intention of coping with prolonged or extraordinary unemployment, nor was it framed, in the form in which it is drafted, to provide maintenance. This so-called debt was incurred, not to implement the scheme in its integrity, but to meet the necessities of a situation created by what has so often been called the "economic blizzard." You can insure against showers, you can insure against storms, and I suppose you can even insure against blizzards. The point of the matter is, however, that, as far as this insurance scheme is concerned, nobody ever contemplated a blizzard, and the scheme was designed as an insurance against the showers of normal bad weather and not against the blizzard of an extraordinary season.
    Such being the case, and the results of the blizzard falling, as they have fallen, upon the community at large, it falls to the community at large to meet those results, and not to leave the burden to be borne by one of its sections alone. Moreover, that section is under no legal obligation at all, except in so far as one is imposed by the book entry or by this Clause, and it is certainly under no obligation that has any moral backing. The Treasury would have had to find the money anyhow. It was not an obligation, it was not a fund which was found from the public purse as part of the Insurance scheme. The disaster of excessive unemployment overtook the country and imposed an inescapable burden upon the Treasury and upon Parliament to find the resources with which to combat it. The public Exchequer, in any case, would have been responsible. It simply happened that, while there was no other convenient machinery ready to hand, there existed in the Insurance Commissioners and the Insurance scheme a readily available conduit pipe through which the payment could be made. In most cases where there is a debt or a burden imposed upon third parties, there are some assets to represent the burden or the debt. Here there are no assets, for the fund simply passed through the conduit pipe.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, for reasons which seemed good to him and to the Government, refrained from acceding
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    to what I sincerely believe is the widely and deeply-felt wish of hon. Members of this House of whatever party, and of the country as a whole, that the burden should be taken by the Treasury and that the people of this country would willingly accept the additional responsibility. Yet only a week or 10 days ago, on the occasion of his opening the Budget, he placed in the hands of hon. Members a White Paper showing the very remarkable figures of the debts due to this country from foreign Governments which had either been remitted or, to all intents and purposes, written off. It is an odd thought that the Government should view—I will not say with equanimity, but at all events, without creating difficulties for the debtor, enormous sums of money borrowed from theis country, and yet fail to respond to the will of the House of Commons and of the country in regard to-this Debt. We have remitted reparations due under a solemn compact from the foe that was defeated, and yet the obligation which this Clause imposes upon the unemployed is itself in the nature of reparation, if not for the War, at least for the aftermath of the War. It is reparation resulting from the mistakes and the miscalculations, not of a section of the nation, but of the whole nation. Is it not rather a bitter thought that, while the foes who were defeated should be excused their payments of reparations, this obligation should still be imposed upon the victors and the sons of the victors?
    9.32 p.m.
    Mr. MACMILLAN: I rise only for a very few minutes, as one who took some part with my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) in the examination of this Clause, and held—and perhaps expressed—some views concerning it, to explain the attitude which I propose to take upon this question. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in replying earlier in the course of the Debate upon the series of Amendments moved by my right hon. Friend, divided the case of those who object to the principle of this Clause into three categories. He said that they relied partly upon the recommendations of the Royal Commission, partly upon the character of the debt, and partly upon the desirability of reaching at an early date a stage when contributions could be reduced or benefits increased. He argued, as he always

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    argues, powerfully and effectively against those views. I do not wish to embark at this stage of the Debate on a long or reasoned argument upon these points. I only wish to say that I remain unconvinced upon the merits of the case. I still hold the view expressed by many of my hon. Friends in the course of these discussions : that it would have been a wiser step had the Government decided to deal otherwise with the debt.
    It is true that the use of a text of the Royal Commission rather as if it were some kind of Holy Writ has its advantages. It has often been the practice in this House to quote conflicting parts of these gospels for and against, and I have noticed that hon. Members usually pick out the parts which are on their side and omit to refer to the parts which are against them. Those who give a good deal of attention to the report of the commission do not base themselves solely upon that ground. There was a general feeling in the country that the sharing of this debt between the fund and the Treasury in some proportion would have been an equitable and a wise solution of the problem. With regard to the character of the debt, I think the right hon. Gentleman hardly did justice to the actual terms of the Royal Commission's observations upon it. While I agree with him that very grave misstatements have been made, and the case for a different view has been very much injured by misstatements, while admitting to the full that two-thirds of the debt was incurred in the paying of standard benefit, and not extended benefit, yet there is a considerable portion of the debt which was incurred in the paying of standard or contractual rates of benefit. Indeed, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry only three months ago made the following observations on the Second Reading :
    "One of the main reasons why the present insurance system got into financial difficulties and suffered so much public disrepute was that Government after Government went on paying men week after week and month after month money which they led the men to believe was contractual."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1933; col. 1614, Vol. 283.]
    If distinguished Members of the present Government like to refer to the Debates that took place in December of 1930, Debates which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
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    might be amused to refer to, they will see that the Foreign Secretary declared that in no circumstances could he conceive this debt ever being repaid. The present Minister of Health declared that it was hypocrisy for the House to proceed by way of incurring debt when everyone knew that no one ever meant to repay. However, these right hon. Gentlemen have no doubt changed their views. With regard to the desirability of reducng as early as possible the rates of contribution or increasing the benefits, I think it is admitted that it is all important, if we are to preserve the contributory system at all, that the rates of contribution should not be oppressive either to the employers or to the employés, and since under the structure of this Bill, so far as I can see, the main, if not the only, benefit to those who draw under Part I as against those who draw under Part II is that they escape the application of the means test, I think we must be careful that the rates of contribution are not higher than that slight gain would justify.
    At the same time, although I know the Chancellor will not expect me to do anything except maintain the views that we have put forward, I want to say quite frankly, and with the knowledge that it may be regarded as weakness on my part—I do not think, whatever faults are attributed to me, timidity or sycophancy can be put down to me—having come to the House to-day with a strong determination, had the Government been adamant altogether, to vote against them, I shall not now record my vote against the Clause. After all, one has to be a realist to some extent. The Chancellor has met us upon the Amendments that we were able to frame within the terms of order, and we are grateful that he has been able to do so. At any rate, we were the only body of Members who succeeded in framing an Amendment within the terms of Order—on this Clause not a very easy thing to do. I recognise, of course, that the Government are not willing to consider the whole thing de novo involving, as it must, fresh financial Resolutions to the Budget and to the Bill, and a vote now would be nothing more than a demonstration. I am all for making a demonstration when you cannot get any concession, but, when you can get something, it is bad manners, as well as bad tactics in the hope of future concessions, not to

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    accept it. I hope that hon. Members who have acted with us will take the same course in not dividing against the Clause.
    9.40 p.m.
    Mr. DENMAN: As one whose name was attached to the Amendments that were discussed earlier on, I should like to add my thanks to the Chancellor for the way in which he has met us. He was right in his inference that the Amendment expressed less than we desired. Of course, we wanted much more. We believe that it would be better that an appreciable share of this burden should be borne by the State. One argument that weighed rather specially with me was that the general National Debt is borne from year to year in ways that the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day thinks fairest. He can always be adjusting the burden of the National Debt to meet the circumstances of the moment. By the method that we are adopting to-day we are placing that burden definitely for all time on a limited number of shoulders without really being able to foresee how they will be able to bear it in the future. That seems to me a very strong argument for placing at least a considerable portion of it on the National Debt.
    But I fully recognise the force of the Chancellor's arguments on the other side, that in this year, in something on a transitional stage in our finances, we cannot lightly add to the burdens of the general taxpayer. I admit that this year that is an extremely forcible argument, and I freely accept it. My purpose in rising now is merely to say that, though in form we are accepting a solution which is valid for the whole period of this debt, I wish to reserve to myself and those who act with me the right to raise the matter afresh in future years. We cannot tell what the financial position will be a year hence, or later on, and there might be circumstances in which the Chancellor might revise his decision and be willing to transfer some of this burden to the National Debt. While accepting the concession, for the purpose of safeguarding my future action, I reserve full right to take what course I like in future years.
    9.44 p.m.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: I have no desire to interfere in the quarrel between the
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    Chancellor of the Exchequer and his supposed supporters, led by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne), because I have always held that, as long as the Unemployment Insurance Scheme is a contributory scheme, there will always be room for debate, and they can lead us into such a maze that we fancy that we are getting concessions when we find in the working out of it there is no concession for the working-class at all. If ever that was proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, it has been proved in the Debate on this Clause. Nothing will satisfy those benches short of the deletion of Clause 19. I am satisfied that there is no one better pleased than the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the ease with which he is going to manage to get the Clause passed. He knows better than anybody what is involved in this Clause. Ever since he came to this House, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has propounded the idea of decentralisation in every Bill with which his name has been associated. I heard him propound the idea of decentralisation in the first speech he made when he came to this House. It is the throwing back of the responsibility on to the community. He has done it in regard to education, he has done it in regard to the Poor Law and he is doing it here. He has always propounded the idea that the Unemployment Fund should be solvent.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here dealing merely with pounds, shillings and pence. I readily admit that it is his job to look upon everything he does from the monetary point of view, but it is the responsibility of this House to see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not ride off on every subject from, a pound, shillings and pence point of view. There is a human side, and it is human beings with whom he is dealing here. It is not powerful America. It is not a question of, "We will see what we can do when we are a bit better off than we are to-day." It is not so with the unemployed. The fund has to be made solvent, and he says to the unemployed man and woman that after a certain length of time they are to be cut off.
    Mr. MOLSON: May I interrupt the hon. Member?
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: No. It might be thought that it was his own fault that

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    a man was unemployed for six months or a year, or that he was a bad workman, but such is not the case. I wish the Government would listen to the voices from these benches which are in direct contact with those who are affected.
    Mr. MOLSON: You set up a commission to make the fund solvent.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Good workmen are unemployed in this country through no fault of their own. Why then should they be penalised? They are victims of the system, and of the idea of rationalisation in shutting down the workshops and scrapping the shipyards and the mines. Whole districts are becoming derelict. Is that the fault of the workmen? The Government have now appointed outstanding personalities upon whom the Cabinet, at all events, can rely, to go into these several districts and make inquiries to find out the actual conditions. It has been brought home to the Cabinet at last, that there are parts of this country that are becoming derelict. It is not simply the countryside or works that are becoming derelict, but human beings, the most valuable asset which the British Empire possesses. The youths and young men who, through no fault of their own, have never worked, are not criminals, but Clause 19 treats the men who have been unemployed for six or eight months as though they were criminals, instead of treating them with justice and respect. That is what we ask should be done, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, "We have paid out move to these folk than they have paid in."
    The theory underlying his idea is that you cannot go on paying more out of the Insurance Fund than is paid in. It is true. I remember the speeches which the right hon. Gentleman used to make during the Labour Government when he always wanted them to get the fund solvent and on to an insurance basis, and now he is going to get it on to an insurance basis, but at whose expense? At the expense of human life and of increasing human misery. The House has no right to let the Chancellor of the Exchequer get away with this as easily as he is getting away with it. In fact, when he formulated the proposal he never dreamed that he would get it across the
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    Floor so easily. This means driving the workers further down. There are no two ways about it. The Government attempted to find work for them, and discovered that they could not do it. They set up a new Department for the purpose of finding work for the unemployed. They did what they liked with the Government. The Prime Minister said that the right hon. Gentleman was one of the finest and ablest men he ever hoped to meet on this side of Heaven. After he had been on that tribune the Prime Minister dispensed with his services. [HON. MEMBERS : "Who was it?"] The Minister for Unemployment, the right hon. Gentleman who is now Dominions Secretary. The Government did away with the Department entirely. That was after they had used all their power and had got a free hand from this House to find work for the unemployed. They could not do it. Are we to sit calmly here after that? The unemployed are innocent.
    We on these benches are satisfied that there is enough and to spare for everyone in this country, whether working or not. It is the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to find ways and means whereby those who are unemployed can live. Talk about his £30,000,000 of surplus. What does it mean? I was one of those who were delighted that the Chancellor gave a concession to the unemployed. But what does it mean? It means that the £30,000,000 was a miscalculation. Do not forget that. He may well "kid" the Tories that it is a surplus, but we know that it was a miscalculation. I know that it is a difficult task to say how much the taxes that are put on this and that and the next thing will produce. But that is the Chancellor's job. If he was in ordinary business, in a co-operative society or in our trade union movement, and this happened, he would be turned out, as a man who made such a blunder as to charge more than was required.
    That is what the Chancellor did. That is all his surplus is; he simply charged more than he required. But not more than was required in the country. The section of the community that is to be affected by this Clause 19 the right hon. Gentleman was starving. Here was a section of the community that could have used that £30,000,000, had he given them the chance. This £30,000,000 that he has

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    saved he has saved out of the stomachs of working-class children, out of the poor of the country—[Interruption.] Do not interrupt me for goodness' sake. This is no laughing matter for the folk who will be affected, for the unemployed who are up against it. You had a fine sample of it on Friday night, when one of my class, one of my constituents, Rankin, broadcast the story of an unemployed man's wife who was trying to rear a family of three, a man and wife and three children, on 33s. a week. That 33s. was all that stood between them and starvation. Yet hon. Members boast about this being the richest country on which the sun ever shone. I ask the Chancellor to reconsider the whole of the implications behind this Clause. It is going to act detrimentally to the people of this country. What does it matter if we save money? What does money matter if we allow our own flesh and blood, our own kith and kin, to deteriorate?
    "Ill fares the land to hastening ills a prey,
    Where wealth accumulates and men decay."
    Men are decaying. It is an easy matter for the boys that are well fed in this House to laugh. [HON. MEMBERS : "You are well fed, too!"] Of course, I am well fed, and I look it. I am never ashamed to say that I am well fed. I do not hide myself behind the bushes or behind the party either. I appeal to the Chancellor to reconsider this Clause and its implications to the working classes. The reason why I was so pleased that he restored the cuts to a section of the unemployed was that I realised perfectly well that by raising the standard of the unemployed he was bound to raise the entire standard of the working classes. As long as the cuts were continued it was very difficult for us to improve the conditions of those who were employed and were just above the unemployed.
    But this Clause 19 is going to worsen their conditions to such an extent that we shall do all that we can constitutionally to resist it. This is not the finish of this Bill. We shall vote against this Clause to-night, but the country, the constituents, the voters who have sent these Tories here, under whatever guise they may have come, national or otherwise, will ask them questions that they will not be able so easily to get
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    over as they get over our questions tonight, by saying that they are quite satisfied that they have got some concession from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or, as one of them said, that he is leaving himself free for the years to come. He intends to be here for years, but I do not think he will be. He is leaving himself free for the years that are to come, so that he can raise this question. The Labour movement will raise this question in the country in no uncertain fashion, so that when the first opportunity presents itself, either at by-elections or at a General Election, we shall turn this Government out.
    10.7 p.m.
    Mr. ARTHUR GREENWOOD: The Debate that we have had to-day goes to show that there is a certain uneasiness in all quarters of the House about Clause 19, and indeed, though many of us would like to have seen the whole Bill recommitted—I know I was making a very large demand, that would not be satisfied, when I asked for that—the fact that the Government agreed to the re-committal of this one of the many Clauses that were not discussed in Committee goes to show that they also were a little apprehensive as to the feelings of their own followers with regard to the position of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. I would like to remind hon. Members of the history of this question, because when we started unemployment insurance, shortly before the War, it was very limited and confined to a small handful of people. The War intervened before we had had any experience of its working at all, and in 1920, about 18 months after the War, the Coalition Government of the time felt bound, because of the menacing signs of unemployment then on the horizon, to make provision, as they thought, of a more or less permanent character for unemployment insurance.
    That Act of 1920 was a leap in the dark. Nobody knew what would flow from it. The figures of contributions and of benefits, the waiting period, and the terms during which unemployment benefit could be drawn, were all purely arbitrary. It was a gamble with half-a-dozen unknown quantities. It was not insurance. It never has been insurance, as I have said on this side of the House many times; and from that time onward a debt has

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    accumulated because successive Chancellors of the Exchequer have juggled about with the six unknown x's and added more unknown quantities—purely arbitrary. As has been pointed out today, there need have been no debt whatever on the fund if contributions had been trebled or quadrupled, if benefits had been reduced to a third or a quarter, or if the State contribution had been trebled, but, as a matter of fact, successive Governments, by determining their own values for the x, y, z's of unemployment insurance contributions, benefits and periods for receipt of benefit, have themselves contributed to the size of the debt. That is the history, and it is as much, in my opinion, a National Debt as that large sum which we know by that name.
    What has happened to-day? The right hon. Gentleman has made a small concession, a very small concession. Our chief case is not with regard to the payment of £5,500,000 a year, absurd as we think that to be; our chief case is against the capital debt itself. The Government now are building up an annual surplus. In the last two years they have altered the x, y, z's, they have altered rates of contribution, they have altered the terms on which, and the periods during which unemployment insurance can be paid, and they have reduced benefits, and because of that, and because of the fall in registered unemployment, the Government are now building up an annual surplus. Yet, notwithstanding that and notwithstanding the very rapid rate at which the debt on the fund would be extinguished by this growing annual surplus, the right hon. Gentleman still sticks to his plan of this levy of, now, not £5,500,000 but £5,000,000 a year. That is all that we are getting out of him—half-a-million pounds a year, at no cost to the Exchequer. This is one of his many gestures. It is like the restoration of unemployment insurance benefits for those in receipt of standard benefit. This concession that he has made to-day does not call upon him for the contribution of a farthing of national funds for the aid of the unemployed. Either the right hon. Gentleman had this up his sleeve as a concession all the time, in order to throw it as a sop to satisfy the growing hunger
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    for something real on the part of hon. Members who support the Government, or, on the other hand, it is an admission of the fact that the claims that we have made and that have been made on all sides of the House are justified. But it is hopelessly inadequate.
    Other suggestions have been made, that the surplus which the right hon. Gentleman accumulated by his conservative estimates of last year might have been devoted to the reduction of the debt. The Royal Commission proposed that twice that sum, that two-thirds of the debt, should fall upon the Exchequer and only one-third upon the fund. The right hon. Gentleman's answer to that—in fact, it has been said by the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Macmillan)—was that people quote from the Royal Commission's Report those passages that are favourable to their own views. That is a human failing, but the right hon. Gentleman, while he has been prepared to swallow most of the Royal Commission's Report, when it comes down to this question of finance, which has not got direct repercussions on the Budget itself, but which has very serious repercussions on the standards of life of the unemployed and the employed workers, has not accepted it. We would go further and say that the right thing to do, in view of the history of the matter, is to regard the debt as a national obligation, created as the result of actions taken by successive Governments who have figured it out wrongly, or who were prepared to face a national debt rather than increase contributions, or reduce benefits, or make harsher terms for the receipt of benefit. We take that line because we believe, what the Government profess to believe, that unemployment ought to be a national responsibility.
    When the Minister of Health first made his statement informing the House that the Government were prepared to make unemployment a national responsibility, that statement was received with the wildest enthusiasm on the part of hon. Members who support the Government. It was thought then that the term "national responsibility" meant that the whole burden was to be taken over by the nation as a whole. If the Government were being true to the principles on which they allege—I say "allege" advisedly—this Bill is based, they would

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    have been prepared to take over as a national responsibility the debt on the Unemployment Fund. It is Hot as though this were a debt on an insurance fund; it is not. It is a debt on a fund which has been raised by compulsory contributions from a limited section of the people, to which the State has added its own contribution. It is not a fund which has fallen on the whole community in any justifiable proportions. The employer pays, the workman pays, and both of them again pay their contribution to what is paid by the State, but the people who are not inside the fund as employed persons under the Unemployment Insurance Act or as employers, are not paying a fair proportion of the charge. This accumulated debt of just over £100,000,000—so small in relation to the total population and wealth of the country, its annual income and its national revenue—might have been taken over definitely as a national responsibility.
    The Statutory Committee is to be set up as the watch-dog of the Treasury. Its primary function is not to care for the unemployed but to make the Unemployment Fund solvent and to keep it solvent. I am not arguing now whether that function is right or wrong, but I say that the Government are deliberately harassing them in the task they have to perform by requiring as a prior charge, before any money can be paid to the unemployed, £5,000,000 a year for the redemption of the debt. It is, in a sense, crippling them to the extent of £5,000,000 a year in their handling of this problem for the next generation, if it lasts for a generation, which I am prepared to prophesy it will not. But he is putting upon the Statutory Committee the responsibility of finding this £5,000,000, and to that extent crippling them from either reducing contributions or increasing benefits. It is an attempt by a back-door method to stabilise the rates which have been established in the Bill. In one way and another the Clause keeps £5,000,000 out of the pockets of the unemployed population, not directly it is true, but by reducing the possible disposable surplus by £5,000,000 a year, which might have been used for increasing the rates of benefit for certain classes of persons, or reducing contributions. That money has gone.
    The right hon. Gentleman in his Budget statement, not in the Budget,
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    announced to the world that he was going to restore unemployment benefit so far as statutory benefit is concerned at a cost of over £4,000,000 a year. That, as I have said before, is tardy justice. It was right that it should be restored, but before the right hon. Gentleman decided to do that he had in effect made up his mind to take £5,000,000 there for the use of unemployed people, out of the fund in order to redeem the debt. We regard this concession as one of the smallest possible kind, a concession which does not deal with what we regard as the major problem. It would have been a real act of generosity with some substance in it if the right hon. Gentleman had taken over the responsibility for the debt on the fund. The Bill is intended to be a permanent Measure. It is the attempt of the Government to solve the problem of the treatment of the unemployed. I do not agree with it, but it is their solution. If they meant the scheme well, they ought to have sent it out on its way without a debt of over £100,000,000 hanging round its neck. It should have been given a fair start.
    What would it have cost the right hon. Gentleman? It would have been well worth while for him to have utilised some of the large surplus which he disclosed to us a fortnight ago, in taking over the debt and making himself responsible, clinging, if he likes, to the principles of the Bill, for which he is largely responsible, but saying that he was going to allow the Bill to start with a fair chance. It is not for me to plead with the Government to give their own Bill a fair chance. My argument rests on the injustice of keeping this debt like a millstone round the necks of the workers, employed and unemployed, and of the employers for the next generation. There is no part of our National Debt so-called which is more creditable to the State than the debt on the Unemployment Fund. When I look at the debt of £7,000,000,000 which has been piled up for destructive purposes as the result of massacre after massacre and compare what this debt has done in maintaining the physique of our people, I say we ought to be proud to make this £106,000,000 a National Debt in the true sense of the term. We could do it financially. It is a flea-bite. It is a small sum relatively compared with the staggering debt which costs us three times

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    as much every year in interest and redemption. This small sum might well he added to the National Debt, in honour not of those who lost their lives in the War and in the spending of that £7,000,000,000, but in honour of the survivors of the War who are suffering from the fruits of the War.
    10.27 p.m.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: At an earlier stage the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) expressed some indignation because under a ruling given by the Chairman, I had, he said, answered in advance the speeches which he and his friends wished to make.
    Mr. LAWSON: That was not the case. My point was that the right hon. Gentleman was allowed to go into things which were completely out of order.
    HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must not make comments of this nature on the action of the Chair.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Hon. Members have had plenty of time since and have taken full advantage of their opportunities to say all they wished to say, but, for my part, I feel that I need detain the Committee but a few minutes now, because I certainly do not consider that it would be any help to them if I were to repeat what I said earlier. I, therefore, confine myself to touching upon one or two of the points made in the course of the last hour. A good deal has been said which seemed more relevant to a discussion on whether an insurance scheme should be an insurance scheme or merely another form of handing out relief. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), who is nothing if not emphatic, appeared to think that I was the author of the idea that the unemployment insurance scheme should be self-supporting. Perhaps he has forgotten that it was the Government of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) was a Member which appointed this Royal Commission, with terms of reference which, I think, must have escaped his memory.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is that the May Committee?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, I refer to the Holman Gregory Commission on Unemployment
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    Insurance. It was appointed to inquire into the provisions and workings of the Unemployment Insurance Scheme and to make recommendations with regard to its future scope, the provisions which it should contain and the means by which it may be made solvent and self-supporting. Those were the terms of reference drafted by the hon. Member's own Government. It was they who desired to make the scheme self-supporting, and it was the Royal Commission which they set up which made the recommendations which have been the subject of so much discussion to-day.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: That may be so, but has not the right hon. Gentleman been eternally hammering that into the House of Commons ever since he came to it?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member thinks that by hammering away at that nail I convinced his Government and his friends, he gives me more credit for persuasiveness than I give myself. The contention has been put forward by several hon. Members that, as a matter of fact, all that this debt did was to pay for expenditure which in any case, if it had not been borrowed by the fund, would have had to be provided gratis by the State. If that be the contention, why did not the Government which was in office during the time, as the Royal Commission says, the greater part of this debt was being accumulated, provide for that expenditure out of voted money, instead of misleading the country and the House and those concerned with the Unemployment Insurance Fund by leading them to believe that by borrowing this money while times were hard, it would be repaid when times were good?
    That argument will not do. At the time this money was borrowed the Government intended that it should be ultimately repaid. There were some, as the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Macmillan) reminded us, who expressed their doubt whether that payment would ever be made, but it was not the view of the Government. The Government did not accept that view. On the contrary, they maintained that this was in fact a loan and that it would have to be repaid in future. I have given my reasons why I still maintain the view that it is neither equitable nor fair to

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    the taxpayer that he should be asked to shoulder this additional burden. I wonder whether it is realised how much the Exchequer has already done in this matter. In the years 1928 to 1933, whereas the contributions of employers and employed amounted to £163,000,000, the Exchequer contribution was £196,500,000; and the Royal Commission point out that during those years, while the burden upon the employers and employed was increased by one-third, the burden on the taxpayer was multiplied by no less than six times. It must be admitted, in view of those figures, that the Exchequer has been most generous and liberal towards the fund, and that it has constantly borne the major share of the burden upon the fund.
    Although I am not able to accept the view which is held—and sincerely held, I know, by many of my hon. Friends—that some part of the debt should be accepted by the taxpayer instead of by the fund—I have endeavoured to meet my hon. Friends as far as I possibly could. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) says that that is a very small concession. A little while ago he said that £106,000,000 was a very small amount. Everything, no doubt, is relative. I suggest that the concession I have made is not a very small concession if you have regard to the size of the debt. It amounts to practically
    one-tenth of the debt, namely, to between £10,000,000 and £11,000,000. That is, I suggest, a very substantial concession, and I am gratified to find that my hon. Friends have recognised that I have done what I could to meet their views, and that I have done something which will really help forward what they have in mind.
    The hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) has reserved his right to raise this question some years hence. Nothing can take that right away from him but one circumstance, which I am sure we all hope will not happen, and, of course, it is possible that some successor of mine, some future Chancellor more fortunate than I am, finding the revenue flowing in and despairing of any means of distributing it, may, in a fit of generosity, say, "I will take over the rest of the unemployment debt"; and, if he can persuade the House of Commons to accept that point of view, the arrangement which is made in this Bill will be upset. But, as I say, that will be for some future Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider. I have to consider the circumstances of to-day, and as I conceive my duty towards the taxpayers I should not be doing my duty if I were to go any further than I have gone on this particular point.
    Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided : Ayes, 270; Noes, 67.

    Division No. 228.]

    AYES.

    [10.37 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Albery, Irving James

    Bullock, Captain Malcolm

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.)

    Burghley, Lord

    Eastwood, John Francis

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Apsley, Lord

    Carver, Major William H.

    Elliston, Captain George Sampson

    Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Blrm., W)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Bailey, Eric Alfred George

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Christle, James Archibald

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

    Clayton, Sir Christopher

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Fleming Edward Lascelles

    Bateman, A. L.

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Beauchamp. Sir Brograve Campbell

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portem'th, C.)

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Gauit, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

    Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Bllndell, James

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Gledhill, Gilbert

    Boulton, W. W.

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Glucksteln, Louis Halle

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Galnsb'ro)

    Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Cross, R. H.

    Goldle Noel B.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Culverwell, Cyril Tom

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Greene, William P. C.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Guest. Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    GuInness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Mills, Sir Fredsrick (Leyton, E.)

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Gay, J. C. Morrison

    Milne, Charles

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

    Hacking. Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chiaw'k)

    Shute, Colonel J. J.

    Hammersley, Samuel S.

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast)

    Hanley, Dennis A.

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardin, E.)

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Harbord, Arthur

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Unlver'tles)

    Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-ln-F.)

    Hartland. George A.

    Morrison, William Shepherd

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Munro, Patrick

    Sopar, Richard

    Heligers, Captain F. F. A.

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Spens, William Patrick

    Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

    North, Edward T.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

    Nunn, William

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

    Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

    O'Donovan, Dr. William James

    Stevenson, James

    Hornby, Frank

    Oman. Sir Charles William C.

    Stones, James

    Horobin, Ian M.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hn. William G. A.

    Storey, Samuel

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Peake, Captain Osbert

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Peat, Charles U.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

    Penny, Sir George

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton.

    Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)

    Petherick, M.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Peto, Sir Basll E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Jamisson, Douglas

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Templeton, William P.

    Jesson, Major Thomas E.

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

    Radford, E. A.

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Ralkes, Henry V. A. M.

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wtck-on-T.)

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswlnford)

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Tree, Ronald

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Rankin, Robert

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.)

    Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham.

    Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Remer, John R.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Rickards, George William

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Wells, Sidney Richard

    Llewellin, Major John J.

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Weymouth, Viscount

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Whyte, Jardine Bell

    Lyons, Abraham Montagu

    Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tslde)

    Wills, Wllfrid D.

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Llverp'l)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Salmon, Sir Isldore

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    McKle, John Hamilton

    Salt, Edward W.

    Wlse, Alfred R.

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Womersley, Walter James

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Scone, Lord

    Commander Southby and Dr. Morris-Jones.

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Milner, Major James

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Hall, George H. (Mertnyr Tydvll)

    Owen, Major Goronwy

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Banfield, John William

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Pickering, Ernest H.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Buchanan, George

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

    Cape, Thomas

    Jenner, Barnett

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Curry, A. C.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Daggar, George

    Kirkwood, David

    West, F. R.

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lawson, John James

    White, Henry Graham

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Leonard, William

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Dobbie, William

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Edwarde, Charles

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Wilmot, John

    Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

    Lunn, William

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Mr. D. Graham and Mr. G. Macdonald.

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Maxton, James

    Bill reported; as amended (in Committee and on re-committal), to be considered To-morrow.
    Clause 19, as amended (on re-committal), to be printed. [Bill 107 (1).]

POST OFFICE SITES (RECOMMITTED) BILL.
Considered in Committe, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

ADJOURNMENT.
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
Adjourned accordingly at Ten Minutes before Eleven o'Clock.

  JAPAN.
  JAPAN.
  SOUTH AFRICAN PROTECTORATES.
  SOUTH AFRICAN PROTECTORATES.
  CYPRUS (SEDITION, SENTENCES).
  CYPRUS (SEDITION, SENTENCES).
  CHINA.
  CHINA.
  TAXI-CAB FARES, EDINBURGH.
  TAXI-CAB FARES, EDINBURGH.
  CONGO BASIN TREATIES.
  CONGO BASIN TREATIES.
POST OFFICE.
  TELEPHONE SERVICE (FLATS).
  TELEPHONE SERVICE (FLATS).
  SIXPENNY POSTAL ORDERS.
  SIXPENNY POSTAL ORDERS.
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
  BEET SUGAR FACTORY COMPANIES.
  BEET SUGAR FACTORY COMPANIES.
  SMALL POX, BLACKBURN.
  SMALL POX, BLACKBURN.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  LANCASHIEE.
  LANCASHIEE.
  TRANSITIONAL PAYMENTS, NORFOLK.
  TRANSITIONAL PAYMENTS, NORFOLK.
  CHATHAM AND GRAVESEND.
  CHATHAM AND GRAVESEND.

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Earl of Inchcape—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

SOUTH DOWNS PRESERVATION BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I rise to commend to your Lordships' favourable consideration the South Downs Preservation Bill, and perhaps I should explain in doing so that while I am not myself one of the actual promoters of the Bill I do nevertheless speak for others besides myself. I have behind me the authority of the National Trust, a body which, as your Lordships are no doubt aware, exists for the purpose of acquiring and preserving for the nation properties of historic interest or of natural beauty. Since the Trust was first incorporated by Act of Parliament early in the present century it has acquired, and now holds, a very large number of properties scattered widely over the country. When once a property passes into the hands of the National Trust, it is safe for the nation for all time.
Perhaps I might commend to your Lordships, as an example of successful action on the part of the National Trust, the case of Stonehenge. When the National Trust first interested itself in Stonehenge the actual stones, in a small tract of territory, were in possession of His Majesty's Commissioner of Works, but it was obvious to us that if building was to take place on what I may describe as the Stonehenge skyline, all the charm and attraction of Stonehenge would be irreparably destroyed. As a result, consequently, of an appeal which we made to the public, we were able to raise between the years 1927 and 1929 the sum of£35,000, Which enabled us to purchase 1,400 acres of Salisbury Plain and so secure for the nation for all time Stonehenge and its neighbourhood. But experience has shown
908
that we are not always able by our unaided efforts to secure for the nation properties which clearly ought to be preserved for it. That brings me to the particular part of the country with which the Bill now before your Lordships' House is concerned.
For some years past the National Trust has been striving, with only partial success, to safeguard the Sussex Downs for the nation in the same way that it was successful in safeguarding Stonehenge. We have been able to acquire some 400 acres of farm and downland embracing two of those famous cliffs known as the Seven Sisters, and we are much indebted to the Corporations of Eastbourne and of Seaford for securing other pieces of territory in the neighbourhood; but, though we have tried one plan after another, we have so far failed to secure the preservation of the greater part of the down-land in that locality. Your Lordships can understand, therefore, with what satisfaction it is that we hail the action of the East Sussex County Council in promoting this Bill—a Bill which is designed to preserve in its present state some 40,000 acres of downland, so typical of the beauty of some of the stretches of our English landscape, some 40,000 acres running in an are with an average depth of some two and a half miles for thirty miles westward from Beachy Head.
It may be said that there are already in existence Acts which are designed to enable local authorities to preserve property of this kind. There is the Town and Country Planning Act. Why then, it may be asked, appeal to Parliament for a special measure? Why not allow local authorities under existing Acts to undertake the safeguarding of the Sussex Downs? The answer to that question is really a two-fold one. In the first place, there are far too many local authorities concerned with this tract of country to render it in the least likely that an agreed scheme can be brought into operation in time to serve the purpose which those who have promoted this Bill have in view. It is notorious that all experience has shown that the normal processes under the Town and Country Planning Act are extremely slow. In this case, apart from the two County Councils of East and West Sussex, there are no fewer than twelve local authorities under the Town and Country Planning Act who would be concerned.

909
Then again, there is a question to which in the interests of justice to the owners of the land I personally attach great importance. The question of compensation where it arises will present far less difficulty under the Bill now before your Lordships than it would under existing town planning legislation. I say that for this reason. Under this Bill compensation where it arises would be spread over a wide area, over the area, that is to say, controlled by the two County Councils and by the County Borough Councils of Brighton and Eastbourne. Under existing legislation compensation would fall to be dealt with by the large number of smaller authorities to which I have already referred, some of them with comparatively low rateable values, who would obviously find it difficult to bear the burden which might be imposed upon them.
Your Lordships may ask: What is the danger against which this Bill seeks to give protection? In the first place, building, particularly unplanned and unsightly building. I wish that any of your Lordships who may be interested in this aspect of the case would travel to that unsightly and unplanned conglomeration of houses which is known euphemistically as Peacehaven, which flaunts itself on the eyes of the traveller between Brighton and Newhaven. All I can say is that when, in my capacity of Chairman of the National Trust, I paid a visit of inspection to the downs, and the sight of Peacehaven fell upon my view, I was staggered by what I saw. There is no order, no properly-planned streets, so far as I could make out, no organised sanitation. There is a mere hotchpotch of buildings of every shape and every size, dumped down in utter confusion upon what still is a commanding, and what at one time was a beautiful, tract of the Sussex Downs. I can assure your Lordships that no nightmare could present the achievements of the jerry-builder in such ghastly guise as they have assumed in the crude and stark reality of Peacehaven.
Protection against the reduplication of Peacehaven is one of the things we seek. But quite recently a danger of another kind has presented itself. A short time ago application was made to the Portslade Urban District Council, which is the town-planning authority for the
910
particular area concerned, by the Brighton Corporation and by the Brighton Motor Racing Track Syndicate for an interim development order under the Town Planning Act permitting them to develop land as a motor racing track. There are others who can speak with greater personal knowledge of this particular proposal than I can claim myself, but as representing the National Trust I say that in our view it would be a desecration of this tract of typical beautiful English scenery if its quiet and its solitude were to be invaded by an enterprise of that kind.
The body which I represent regards the matter of the preservation of this tract of country as one of national rather than of local importance, but it is nevertheless interesting to see what are the views of the local residents with regard to it. The resolution in favour of the promotion of this Bill in the East Sussex County Council was carried by forty-three votes to two with eight members abstaining, and that decision was confirmed at a subsequent meeting by a majority of fifty-two votes to three with only one member abstaining. The East Sussex County Council had been at pains to ascertain the views of the local residents, both the landowners and the public, with regard to the matter before they promoted the Bill. At a conference of the principal private landowners a resolution strongly in favour of the principle embodied in the Bill was passed, and a similar resolution was passed by the East Sussex branch of the Central Landowners' Association, whilst apart from the two County Councils, two only of the twelve authorities representing, I must suppose, the population at large, showed themselves to be opposed to the principle of the Bill.
That is not to say that there may not be matters of detail which both landowners and local authorities may wish to press when this Bill reaches the Committee stage. That may very well be. Indeed, the Eastbourne Borough Council have taken power to petition against the Bill, not because they are not in sympathy with its main object, but merely because they wish to press a certain point upon the promoters of the Bill when it reaches the Committee stage. But these are matters with which we are not concerned to-day. All that your Lordships are asked to do to-day is to

911
agree that a case for a thorough investigation of the matter has been made, and if your Lordships are prepared to give this Bill a Second Reading this afternoon, an investigation of that kind, at which all those whose interests are in any way affected can be adequately represented, will take place. It is in the confident expectation that such a course will prove to be one which commends itself to your Lordships that I now venture to ask you to give a Second Reading to the Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(The Marquess of Zetland.)
THE EARL OF KINNOULLhad given Notice that on the Motion for the Second Reading he would move, That the Bill be read 2a this day six months. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time this day six months. The Bill is of a most drastic character. It will absolutely prohibit the erection of any new houses (except possibly in connection with agriculture) on any part of the area, defined in the Bill as "the South Downs." It will also prohibit the making of any excavations for the laying of sewers and drains, gas and water pipes, and electric lines, even in connection with existing houses in the South Downs. Moreover, it prohibits housing development in part of the area defined as the South Downs, but parts at any rate of this area are not downlands and are suitable for housing development. It also prohibits the laying of sewers and drains and water pipes; and that prohibition might have serious consequences. The prohibition of the laying of gas pipes and electric lines is very unreasonable indeed.
The Bill is really unnecessary. I was not impressed by the arguments used by the noble Marquess when he referred to the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932. I know that one noble Lord who is in favour of this Bill knows the Town and Country Planning Act very well—I refer to the noble Viscount, Lord Gage—and I think he will agree that this Bill is totally unnecessary, having regard to the existing powers under the Town and Country Planning Act. The Brighton Corporation have themselves spent considerable sums of money upon this object by purchasing land not only within the area defined in the Bill as the South Downs but outside that area, and both within and without their Borough. They
912
have also permitted large areas of their land to be reserved as downland either in their own town-planning proposals or in those of other authorities.
The Bill seriously affects the Brighton Corporation as undertakers for the supply of water and electricity. The Corporation's areas of supply for water and electricity include the whole of their Borough and many districts and parishes outside. A large part of those areas is in the South Downs. As regards the Brighton Corporation's water undertaking, the Bill, if passed, would prevent the Corporation from making any extension in the South Downs of their system of water mains, or supplying water to any houses in the South Downs not now being supplied. It would also prevent them extending their system of underground adits for collecting water and conveying it to their existing pumping stations (of which there are four close to the land defined in the Bill as the South Downs) in so far as the extensions would be under any part of the South Downs. The Bill would also prevent the Corporation erecting a contemplated pumping station at Balsdean, to the east of the Borough, where adits have already been driven and the yield of water has already been proved. Thus a large sum of money which has already been spent on those works will be wasted. Further, as regards the Brighton Corporation's electricity undertaking, the Bill would prevent the Corporation from laying down or erecting any new mains, cables and works for the purposes of the undertaking in any part of the South Downs not now being supplied.
Generally, the Bill would prevent the Brighton Corporation from developing or allowing to be developed for housing or any other purposes any parts of their lands which are within the South Downs as defined in this Bill. The Corporation of Brighton, and incidentally I myself, believe that the primary if not the sole purpose of the promotion of the Bill is the prevention of the construction and use of a motor racecourse upon lands in the urban district of Portslade-by-Sea which belongs to the Corporation. The Brighton Corporation are under obligation, if called upon, to lease the land for this purpose, and they have stipulated conditions which they think adequate for the preservation of the amenities. They deny that the track would seriously affect

913
the amenities of the South Downs, but on the other hand they are of opinion that it would be of great value to their Borough and the neighbouring authorities. I may say, in passing, that Brighton has always been exceedingly keen on its own amenities, and I am perfectly certain that Brighton would never have authorised or suggested a motor racecourse if they had thought that it was going to spoil the amenities of the district.
Further, under the general law relating to town planning, an appeal to the Minister of Health against the refusal of the Portslade Council to permit development of the land in the manner proposed, has already been lodged. I submit that no case can be shown for special legislation for dealing with this matter which is now under the consideration of the tribunal appointed to deal with these matters by the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932. The Bill is far too rigid in its terms, particularly Clause 3. No provision is made for the modification of the restrictions imposed by that clause by an independent tribunal if future circumstances should render such a course proper.
Finally, why was this Bill introduced in February? The right time of the year to introduce Bills is in the autumn—in November. Why is it such an urgent matter that it must be rushed through at this time of the year, which is not the right time of the year? I really!hope, my Lords, that you will not give this Bill a Second Reading.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now") and at the end of the Motion insert ("this day six months"). —(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
EARL BUXTON: My Lords, with the leave of the House I would say a few words in regard to this matter. I will endeavour to be as brief as possible, because I know that your Lordships are interested in another measure which is to be considered to-day; but I would like to reply to my noble friend behind me who, on behalf of the Brighton Corporation, is opposing, this Bill. May I point out to him two things? In the first place he does not seem to be aware that this Bill deals solely with what you may call the bare downs, above the developed part of the country,
914
and that there is no prohibition in the sense which he has suggested of all those matters to which he has referred. There is a prohibition in principle against buildings and against works of any sort which are likely to interfere with the amenities of the downs and make them less popular and less useful to the public at large; but in the case of the area covered by the County Council, that Council will be able to agree to any proposal which seems to them reasonable within any possible development of the downs, combined with protection for the public interest.
Moreover, the noble Earl behind me has stated that the Brighton Corporation will be unable to carry out various works which they have to do, if this Bill is passed. He is entirely wrong in that idea. If he will look at the Bill, he will see that what is part of the present authority of the Brighton Corporation is excluded from the authority of the County Council, and remains under the full authority and control of the Brighton Corporation. Therefore all his remarks with regard to the limitation on Brighton's activities are not arguments which ought to be used against this Bill. Then he asks what is the urgency in regard to this matter. The urgency has already, I think, been explained by the noble Marquess who introduced the Bill in, if he will allow me to say so, a very interesting and admirable speech. The urgency is this, that for some years past, under the Town Planning Acts, various authorities in East Sussex have combined together in a joint advisory committee. That committee sat for some six years. It was promoted by the Brighton Corporation. Its chairman was a Brighton alderman, and its honorary secretary the town clerk of Brighton, and Brighton took a very honourable part in this matter, as indeed it has done in the past in regard to the protection of the downs. That committee, however, has been unable to come to any real conclusions, and as the noble Marquess opposite said just now, it has really shown that to carry out such a very delicate and difficult occupation as that of town-planning, covering a large area and a large number of authorities, it is almost impossible for the diverse interests of large bodies, with the difficulties of arrangement, to come to any degree of unanimity such as would enable these town plannings to become Acts of Parliament.

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The result was that the Brighton Corporation—I am not in any sense blaming them for it, because I think they have a good reason for their action in one way—have withdrawn from the town-planning committee, their argument being that this committee has been too long an advisory committee, and ought now to undertake executive powers, and that it has been unable to do. The effect of the renunciation of their membership by the Brighton Corporation resulted in a complete break-down of all this town planning, which it was hoped would come to fruition by general agreement. The result will be that unless this Bill is passed, or some other authority put in possession of this stretch of the South Downs, which is purely downs and has nothing to do with the country below, there will be nothing whatever to prevent any of these authorities, or the owners of this land, from doing what they like with regard to these downs, and they could carry out these various operations, which in my opinion would not be advantageous from the downs point of view.
The noble Marquess referred to a place which is notorious in this country—Peacehaven. That has been due to the fact that no town-planning scheme was in operation in that part of the country at the time when Peacehaven was undertaken. It is too late, however, to remedy that. Proposals are before various authorities to extend building operations, such as at East Dean and in two places near Brighton, all of which will encroach enormously on the amenities, advantages and beauties of the downs, and above all there is this matter of the motor racing track, to which I will refer in a few minutes. My noble friend behind me complains on behalf of the Brighton Corporation that their authority is going to be undermined by the County Council. I have pointed out to him that that is not so, and that so far as their present position is concerned it will not be interfered with. They do, in fact, own a considerable part of the downs, but that is under another authority, and they will be treated like any other owner, who will receive proper treatment under the provisions of the Bill.
The best argument, I think, as against the argument of my noble friend behind me, as to whether this Bill is required
916
and how far it meets the general opinion in East Sussex, is shown by the fact, which has been already stated, that no fewer than twelve out of fourteen authorities are in favour of the Bill in principle, although in some cases they reserve the right to suggest Amendments. Only two authorities are opposed to it and they are the County Borough of Brighton and the Borough of Hove. That appears to me to be an immense argument in favour of this Bill. I am perfectly prepared to agree that in some respects the Bill is rather too harshly drawn. The reason for that, I understand, is that in the case of a Private Bill of this sort, when it goes to a Committee, you cannot extend its provisions but you can always allow greater elasticity, and I have no doubt whatever, though I have no authority to speak on their behalf, that the promoters will endeavour to meet all legitimate complaints, because it is their object that the Bill shall work smoothly.
If I may say just one word further with regard to the reasons why the Bill is introduced, one of the great reasons—the noble Earl behind me says it is the main reason—is that it has been proposed in the Brighton area, on land leased by Brighton, to create what is called a super-racing track on one spur of the downs. That part of the downs, if this proposal is carried through, will have all its amenities, and advantages from the public point of view, completely destroyed. The proposal is that 1,100 acres of pure downland should be leased by the Brighton Corporation to this company. On this land they will enclose 400 to 500 acres, and within that have a racing track of four and a half miles, fencing it all in. A great part of it will be on the skyline, and the whole of it, with the exception of a few acres, above the 300 ft. contour which comprises the bare downs above it. It seems evident that such a proposal as that will entirely destroy all the advantages and all the amenities of the Sussex Downs in that part of the county.
I say frankly it is not so much the actual track itself to which I object. It is more the fact of there being that track, which will bring immense numbers of people there, over the downs, to the destruction of the amenities. The promoters estimate that some half a million

917
of people will attend these meetings. These half million have to come and go. They cannot come and go by sea, and they will not, many of them, come round by Brighton or Portslade. They can only come therefore over the downs themselves, and one can figure to oneself what that would mean from the point of view of the maintenance of these downs as open spaces for the public benefit. It would involve large, wide roads, and the whole of the amenities, and especially those of the Devil's Dyke, the most beautiful part of the country, would be destroyed by this track. I appeal to your Lordships on the ground of urgency: unless this Bill is passed there is nothing whatever to protect the South Downs from incursions and disfigurement of that sort. It will, it seems to me, be a most fatal error on the part of those who are proposing this track unless we can obtain the Second Reading of this Bill. I am quite sure that when the Bill has been read a second time all the points to which my noble friend behind me referred will be met as far as they possibly can be, so that when this Bill becomes an Act it will carry out the object of preserving the beauty of the downs while, at the same time, suitably meeting any objections that may be made.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, I do not wish to express any opinion on whether or not it is advisable that the public should have the enjoyment which my noble friend beside me (Lord Zetland) says he thinks they ought to have, but if they are to have that enjoyment they ought to pay for it, and they ought to compensate the owners. I find that Clause 11, the compensation clause, says:
"No person shall be entitled to compensation under the provisions of this Act in respect of—
(a) any structure erected or act or thing done after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-four…."
I venture to appeal to the Lord Chancellor upon this question. That is retrospective legislation. It says that when a man has done something under the belief that he had the power to do it, my noble friend comes along and says: "Oh no, you must not do that, because we have fixed an arbitrary limit, January, 1934, before which you can have compensation but after which you cannot have
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compensation." That seems to me to be an extraordinary provision in a Bill promoted by a Conservative. We are living in queer times, but I sincerely trust that when the Bill goes to Committee the Select Committee will take out that clause and substitute another clause which will give proper compensation to everybody whose property is affected.
THE CHAIRMAN or COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to say one or two words to your Lordships on the previous history of Bills of this kind. Within my recollection in your Lordships' House there have only been two for a number of years past—namely, the Whitgift Bill, which was to interfere with certain buildings at Brighton, and the Adelphi Estate Bill of last year. Of course there have been other Private Bills the rejection of which has been moved on Second Reading, but they were not quite on all fours with the present Bill. In regard to the Whitgift Bill, the noble Earl, Lord Donoughmore, who then occupied the position which your Lordships have done me the honour to entrust to me, urged upon your Lordships that it was desirable that the Bill should go to a Committee upstairs, but the House, without a Division I think, decided to reject the Bill on Second Reading. I need not, I think, refresh your Lordships' memory as to what occurred with regard to the Adelphi Estate Bill of last year. That went to a Committee which dealt with it, and eventually it was passed—I hope to the satisfaction of all concerned.
Now we have a Bill of a similar kind, and I would respectfully urge your Lordships not to refuse this Bill a Second Reading, but allow it to go to a Select Committee, where it can be thoroughly considered, and witnesses and counsel can be heard, and all interests represented. By doing so your Lordships will not by any means lose control of the Bill. That has been well-established with regard to other Bills, but it will give an opportunity for every interest to be heard. The noble Earl opposite who invited your Lordships to reject this Bill mentioned a very large number of subjects which, I gather, seemed to him to require careful consideration. It seems to me that is an argument for sending the Bill to a Select Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Banbury, also raised a point on a clause

919
which he hoped the Select Committee would take out, so that my noble friend also is agreed that the Bill should have a Second Reading and should go to a Select Committee. I think that would be the most satisfactory course. I am not dealing with the merits of the Bill, about which I am afraid I know little. But, as regards procedure, I think it is desirable that the Bill should go to a Select Committee.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, it so happens that no less than seven years ago I was called in by the people behind the idea of making a motor race track at Brighton in order to give them some sort of opinion as to whether the track, if constructed, would be a good one, and as to whether the position generally was suitable. Before giving any opinion I asked them whether they would assure me that they would in no way interfere with, or allow to be interfered with, the amenities of the area in question. A number of reasons have been advanced by the noble Marquess and the noble Earl opposite as to why this Bill should be given a Second Reading. They have quoted Peacehaven. There is nothing to be said for the collection of shacks which composes that hamlet. But the real reason why this Bill has been introduced has undoubtedly to do with the proposed motor race track, and there has been an extraordinary amount of misrepresentation and prejudice with reference to it. The noble Earl opposite has stated that the area affected is only 1,100 acres in extent. The noble Marquess in introducing the Bill explained that the area, covered by the measure was thirty miles east and west and about fifteen miles north and south. An area of 1,100 acres cannot really be said seriously to interfere with so large an area of territory.
When a motor race track is talked about everybody imagines a sort of Brooklands. Nothing of the sort is contemplated here. All that is intended is to construct an ordinary road, with no concrete banking, and no unsightly buildings. The area is close to the old fever hospital, which is hardly a thing of beauty. It is close to the Brighton Golf Club, and there are some very unsightly buildings round the area, so that it cannot be said that the area is exactly sacrosanct. Something has been said about the opinions of the people in the
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area. One thing that has not been mentioned is that the other day there was an election there, for the Portslade Urban District Council, and four of the candidates who opposed the track on the Council were defeated, while the people who were in favour of the track were elected. Therefore it cannot be said that opinion is entirely on one side in this matter. I shall not oppose the sending of this Bill to a Select Committee. All I want to do is to remove from your Lordships' minds a prejudice which exists against motor race tracks. It is, of course, not intended to have motor racing on this area of the downs every day throughout the year. The meetings will be limited to about half-a-dozen at the outside.
LORD HAMPTON: My Lords, I have had the privilege of sitting in your Lordships' House for a considerable number of years, but this is the first occasion on which I have ventured to address your Lordships, and I therefore ask for that consideration which your Lordships invariably give to one addressing you for the first time. I think that there will be few of your Lordships found to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill, and I should not have risen to speak on this occasion, on a somewhat crowded afternoon as regards business, if it had not been that two points which I and those I represent have put to the Sussex County Council have not been met, in fact, have not received any satisfaction whatsoever. There is a danger in a Bill of this kind that in an excess of zeal for preserving open spaces and beauty spots a certain amount of needless restriction may be placed upon people who have used those spots for various reasons, and there are two words in the definitions in this Bill which come into this category. They may be small points, and I should not have mentioned them were it not for the fact, as I have said, that we have not been able to receive any satisfaction regarding them.
In the definitions the word "excavation" includes any disturbance of turf, and under the definition of "structure," curiously enough, we find the word "tent." This is the first time I have seen a tent described as a structure, and it is just another example of the extraordinary stretch of which our language is capable. These two words taken in

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conjunction with the next clause of the Bill mean that all camping over this large area, not all of which is entirely downland, is going to be made very difficult, if not impossible, far those who wish to camp there. Your Lordships will have been aware that during the last few years there has been going on in this country rather a remarkable phenomenon; I think I may so describe it without exaggeration. There has been almost an historical reaction against the crowdedness of modern methods of living, which is sending young people particularly in larger numbers every year for their holidays under canvas. I think it is almost as important that we should preserve and seek to encourage this sort of holiday as it is to preserve our open spaces, because, after all, the two things run very much in conjunction.
What finer way of visiting the South Downs could there be than to camp within easy reach of them or even on them Therefore we take exception to that particular point. It is particularly important at this juncture in our history, when the statistics as regards the physical health of the younger people especially are not very encouraging, that we should take that point into consideration. I am bound to admit that this new enthusiasm has had two very unfortunate results. It has given rise in the first place to what. I may term the "camp hog." We probably all know him, and some of us who live by the sea suffer very much from him. There are two sorts of campers. There is the person who does not realise that camping is an art to be practised and for which a good deal of training is necessary, and I really think the term "camp hog" properly describes such people who root up the turf, leave behind them insanitary conditions and make themselves generally a nuisance. Another result has been as regards those who are used to camping in a proper and orderly manner under supervision. It has been found that sites are not easily obtainable and are getting more and more scarce and more and more expensive, especially within convenient reach of great centres of population.
I do hope this Select Committee will take these points into consideration and will avoid as far as possible doing anything which will upset or in any way interfere with this new urge, of our young people to take their holidays out-of-
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doors. This is not the first time we have been faced with the same difficulties. On at least two occasions Bills have been promoted in Which camping has been barred or very seriously threatened. In the case of these two other Bills we were successful, and I appeal to the promoters in this case. I certainly would congratulate the East Sussex County Council on bringing this valuable Bill forward, but I urge that when the Bill goes to Select Committee these points with regard to camping may be taken into consideration. After all it is very easy to prohibit things. Prohibiting a thing costs nothing. It is very easy to do; but it is not always good legislation. Surely it is better in all these schemes that we should make allowance for the new urge of camping, as is done in America, and in Germany and in many other parts of the Continent, and make definite arrangement for it by scheduling certain areas where camps may be held, thus making the South Downs easily get-at-able by people who cannot afford motor cars and cannot afford in other ways to visit them.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I am sure the whole House will appreciate the speech which has been delivered by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, and recognise the authority with which he can speak with regard to camping and. holidays for the younger generation. I feel confident that the point he raises will be considered very sympathetically by the Committee to which this Bill will be referred. I am personally very glad to hear him speak of the new urge for country life amongst the young. I thought people could only enjoy themselves in these days in company with a motor horn and a wireless set and a couple of gramophones wherever they went. I speak as a Sussex man. This is not a political question, and I part company with my noble friend behind me. Poor unfortunate Sussex is suffering for its beauty and popularity. The attack has begun from the south, and from Chichester right up all the way beyond Brighton the coast has been desecrated by lines and rows and groups and masses of ill-built, ill-designed, shabby buildings which are spreading like a malignant growth over the countryside. It is really very pressing from the Sussex point of view that it should

923
be protected. These downs are undoubtedly one of the great beauties of England and should be preserved at all costs. Therefore, I am warmly in favour of the Bill.
The matter of a motor racing track is not such a little matter as my noble friend Lord Howe believes. It does not represent simply a harmless little bit of alteration in the downlands. I remember quite well when Brooklands was first started and its promoters said: "There is nothing in this. It is just a circular route for a few cars to run on." I do not think anyone considers Brooklands a very fine rural area now. It is the crowd, as the noble Earl said, which is important—it is the crowd which such a track will bring, that will mean still further desecration of this beautiful part of the country. Whatever our feelings on the details may be, I consider that the noble Marquess, Lord Zetland, has made out a strong case for this Bill going to a Select Committee and I hope your Lordships will vote in favour of it.
On Question, Amendment negatived, and Bill read 2a accordingly.

SOUTH DEVON AND EAST CORN WALL HOSPITAL, PLYMOUTH, ROYAL ALBERT HOS PITAL, DEVONPORT, AND CENTRAL HOS PITAL, PLYMOUTH (AMALGA MATION, &c., BILL). [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH (PRO VISIONAL ORDER (ACCRINGTON) BILL
Read 3a, and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDER (WATFORD) BILL
Read 3a,and passed

PERSONAL STATEMENT BY THE DUKE OF ATHOLL.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, I crave the indulgence of the House and beg to ask your Lordships' permission to make a very short personal
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statement. In view of the fact that the Attorney-General has, in another place, denied the accuracy of a statement I made in your Lordships' House the other day, and as that statement concerned, to a certain extent, the Bill that is shortly going to be before your Lordships' House, I wish to say that I see no reason to alter one word of what I said to your Lordships on Thursday. It seems to me unfortunate that the Attorney-General, before making his statement, did not communicate with me first, either with a request for further information, or for the corroborative evidence which, fortunately, happens to be available, but relied solely on ex-parte information. I am glad, however, to learn that, although the police were sent to Blair Atholl by the instructions of the Public Prosecutor, they had no authority from him for some of the statements which I re-affirm were in fact made to me.
I have only to add that, before the summons was applied for, the Public Prosecutor was personally made aware by my legal advisers of the impropriety of the police action. One would have thought that, had there been no ground for this allegation of impropriety, the mere fact of its having been made would have been sufficient to cause the authorities to insist upon tendering the evidence so that the circumstances in which it was obtained could be fully investigated. At the trial, however, no attempt was made to use the evidence obtained by these police officers at Blair Atholl. I feel bound to take this, the first, opportunity of making this short statement, as not only do I feel that my personal honour as a member of this House has been impugned, but also because the Attorney-General, in the language he used, has conveyed the impression that, had my statement been made elsewhere, I might have laid myself open to the possibility of some unspecified criminal proceedings. I beg to thank your Lordships for the courtesy you have extended to me.
NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear.

BETTING AND LOTTERIES BILL. [H.L.]
Debate resumed (according to Order) on the Amendment to the Motion for the Second Reading,—namely, That the Bill

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be read a second time this day six months, moved by Viscount Bertie of Thame last Thursday.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: My Lords, I know there are many who desire to speak, so I do not propose to occupy any considerable extent of time, and it is less necessary for me to do so for, notwithstanding the different opinions expressed during the last debate, there were one or two principles on which I think we were all agreed. We were all agreed that the State has not the duty of interfering with betting between private individuals. It is only called upon so to interfere when organised betting has reached the pitch that it leads to grave social consequences. The other principle on which I think we were agreed was that, as a matter of fact, betting has greatly increased during recent years and that from it there have come grave social consequences. I need not spend time in urging the accuracy of that position. I can only say from my own personal experience—for ever thirty years until quite recently I have been roost closely connected with large industrial districts—that during that time I have seen many changes, most of them for the better, but during that time, and especially since the War, there has been a rapid increase in betting and gambling, in the amount which is spent in this way, and in the number of people who take part in it.
The evidence brought before the Royal Commission showed quite plainly—and the Commission in its Report accepts the evidence—that through this increase of betting crime has often been caused, poverty has been intensified, and character has frequently deteriorated. The Commission expressly points out the evil effects of this increase in betting and gambling on those who belong to the younger generation. Where young men and lads have been seized with the gambling habit, as some of them have, all other interests pass away. There was very striking evidence brought forward in this connection, and noble Lords who doubt that can test it for themselves if they are in connection with any old school or college mission. If they ask the manager of such a mission, whether he be clerical or lay, and if he has had considerable experience there, he will say that during the last years one of the most
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difficult problems he has had to deal with has been this increased betting and gambling among the boys in his club.
I think that on these matters we are agreed, but where we differ is as to whether the State can rightly and usefully interfere with this betting. There are a number of speakers who have suggested that the causes of betting and gambling are such that the State cannot rightly interfere. We are told that the increase of betting and gambling has been partly due to a reaction from the excitement of war, partly it has been due to the intense desire for some escape from the monotony of daily life, and it has been partly due to the desire suddenly to get rich and to live the kind of life which is presented day by day in so many of our films. I am quite ready to recognise the force of all these reasons. I sympathise with the motives which lead many people to take to gambling. I could not possibly pass a sweeping condemnation on the individuals who are actuated by these things, but these are not the only causes of the increase of betting and gambling. There is another cause, and that is a cause which can quite legitimately he dealt with by the State.
As the Royal Commission found, one of the main causes of the increase in betting and gambling to-day is that the organised facilities for gambling have increased, and that there has been a deliberate exploitation of the gambling propensity for the sake of private gain. I venture to read two very short extracts from the Report of the Commission:
"One of the main causes, perhaps the most potent, in the growth of gambling, has been the increased facilities for organised gambling."
Again:
"We see before us the mass exploitation for private financial gain of the instinct or propensity to gamble."
There have come into existence a number of new companies and associations whose prosperity or decline depend upon the increase or decline of gambling. Their dividends depend very largely on the amount which they are able to receive from those who go to various forms of amusement not for the sake of the sport which is there but so that they may have opportunities for gambling.
It is riot good for the State that there should come into existence societies and companies who make private gain

927
through encouraging the anti-social habit of excessive betting and gambling. If these societies and companies are allowed to flourish they may eventually become a real danger to the nation. They will possess in the course of time considerable wealth and they may use it, as has been done in other countries, in an attempt to manipulate the Press, to bribe the Police, and to influence representatives in Parliament. I am not at all sure that signs of this are not already visible. I understand that members in another place are being deluged by postcards which are all in almost identically the same terms and which are evidently due to the promptings of some organisation. The State has not only the right, but it has the duty, to control and, if needs be, to stop those who are attempting to exploit gambling propensities for the sake of private gain.
This Bill, as far as I understand it, does not attempt in any way to interfere with private betting and gambling. It contains, as far as I can see, no penalties that are directed against the individual who gambles. Its whole purpose is to control and check those who are trying to organise gambling so that they can make private gain from it. This is, I think, plain in connection with the clauses in the Bill which deal with greyhound racing. This is a new amusement which has come very rapidly into popularity. I noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, in his speech, was rather doubtful as to whether he should call it a sport or an industry. I am doubtful, and I was glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Dalzell, was also doubtful, whether it ought to be called a sport. Our objection to greyhound racing is not to the racing itself. The racing itself has nothing whatever objectionable in it. Nor can any charge be fairly brought against the crowds who attend these gatherings. Our objection to greyhound racing as it is very often practised is that it becomes very largely an excuse for gambling on a very large scale.
On the two occasions when I visited dog-racing tracks I was very much struck by the great rings of bookmakers. A friend who was with me, who is much more accustomed to horse racing than I am, tells me that they were in proportion far in excess of anything you see on
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the ordinary horse-racing course. What also struck me was that the majority of the people were not showing any interest in the actual racing. They were showing great interest in the bookmakers, but comparatively little interest in the actual racing. I could quite understand it. The first race or two that I saw thrilled me. Afterwards I found the performance became boring beyond all words. Out of the two hours or two-and-a-quarter hours of the performance, I think only four or five minutes were actually taken up with the racing. Many of the people kept their eyes the whole time on the board which was to have numbers hoisted on it and paid no attention to the racing. Another thing which struck me was that crowds of quite young men and youths were taking part in the betting in the lower-priced seats.
The evidence which was brought before the Royal Commission shows that there has been a great increase in betting and gambling through the coming into existence of these greyhound courses. Two of the noble Lords who spoke last week, Lord Askwith and the Duke of Sutherland, gave us a most vivid and attractive picture of these courses. From their speeches I think we might gather that these courses were run by kindly and philanthropic people in order to give the working classes some amusement in the evening. We had a picture of the man and his family enjoying a happy, healthy evening in the open air. I could understand the account given by the noble Duke because he told us he had not attended one of these racecourses for a very long period. I was rather more perplexed by the account given us by the noble Lord, Lord Askwith.
The noble Lord fortified his opinion by quoting a description given by the late Viscount Brentford when he was a member of the other House and Home Secretary. I feel that even if Viscount Brentford in 1928 passed a favourable opinion on these courses, that would hardly apply to-day. Then there were only forty-five of these courses in existence whereas now there are something like 230 or more. When I looked up the speech made by Sir William Joynson-Hicks, as he then vas, I saw that the Home Secretary said that the first thing he had learned from the reports of the police was that there was a great deal of betting. He said:

929
"I am bound to draw the conclusion that there is very much betting. That is one point that appears quite clearly, that dog racing and I am inclined to say must be, associated with a very large amount of betting indeed…. That is the first fact that emerges from the opinion of all the police forces."
If that was true some six years ago, it is much more true to-day.
This Bill deals with dog racing in three ways. It gives local authorities some opportunity of saying whether they desire this kind of racing or not. It is really almost intolerable that to-day a company may decide that it desires to start a racecourse in the midst of some locality, and that although the local authority and the great mass of the people may be most violently opposed to it, there is no possible way of stopping it. This Bill, if it becomes law, will give the local authority some power of stopping a course being thrust upon a reluctant population. I am bound to say that I wish the reasons given were rather fuller. Reasons of police and reasons of traffic may be right, but I cannot see why moral and other reasons should not be also included. Next, the Bill limits the number of days on which there can be betting. It does not interfere with the number of clays upon which they can have racing. I think there was some confusion in connection with this in the minds of some of the noble Lords who have spoken. If the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, and the other philanthropists, wish to continue giving this healthy recreation for the working classes in the evening, night by night, there is no reason why they should not do so. It is true that they will not be allowed to have the totalisator every night, and they will not be allowed to have bookmakers every night, but with those exceptions they can continue having this racing, and if people go there simply for the sake of the sport and simply for the sake of spending an evening with their wives and families, surely they can still continue allowing these races to go on night by night.
Then the Bill will also legalise the totalisator on dog-racing tracks. I find myself quite unable to resist or criticise this proposal. If you are going to allow betting on a dog track it is, I think, right that they should have the opportunity of what is generally regarded as the cleanest and fairest form of betting. But if they are to be allowed to have the
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totalisator, I trust that the Government will not withdraw or modify any of the restrictions which they have placed upon it in this Bill. The difference between the totalisator on a horse racecourse and the totalisator on greyhound tracks while it was still in operation, was that the latter was used for private gain, and it is this element of private gain which we desire to see taken out of the totalisator. If private gain is allowed to come into the use of a legalised totalisator on every greyhound race track, I believe that the greater part of the value of this Bill will be lost.
I want to spend only a few moments on the question of lotteries. Here again, the Government have distinguished: they have decided to allow the smaller lotteries and they have directed their attack on the great organised lotteries—lotteries which are advertised highly and which stimulate the gambling instinct, and incidentally in some cases mean that very large sums of money leave this country. I know that we have an alternative: it has been pressed upon us that we should have in this country sweepstakes for the sake of the hospitals. The noble Duke, the Duke of Sutherland, told us that he was greatly disappointed because, while in a previous debate in this House the Government spokesman had said that his view and the views of others should receive careful consideration, apparently nothing that they had suggested was to be found in this Bill. Personally, I am not over-optimistic when noble Lords on the Government Front Bench, whatever Government may be in power, tell us that proposals are going to receive careful consideration; but in this case I think many of us may feel that our views did receive careful consideration, for I think the weight of the argument in that previous debate was against lotteries for the sake of the hospitals. I think it was shown that by far the greater part of the money which was raised for the hospitals never reached the hospitals at all, but went into the pockets of the private individuals and agents who were organising those lotteries. Of course, the lottery law is at the present time in a hopelessly inconsistent condition.
I think the most serious feature of this Bill is that it fails to deal with street betting. Street betting is illegal, and it is practised in almost every street.

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The law is brought into contempt by the way in which that law is set at naught. I am not, however, proposing for one moment that any attempt should be made to enforce the present law. I doubt whether popular opinion would stand it. Nor am I proposing that the present law should merely be strengthened; but I think that sooner or later some Government with positive proposals will have to deal with what is admittedly a very serious evil.
This is not a Bill which has been drawn up by anti-gambling societies. If those who are opposed to all forms of betting and gambling had drawn up a Bill dealing with these problems, it would have been a very different Bill from the one which is now before the House. I venture to think that in some ways it would have been a very much better Bill. It would have been a Bill which dealt with street betting, a Bill which dealt much more drastically with all the advertisements and announcements of betting; it would probably have been a Bill which refused to legalise the totalisator; and it would have been a much more drastic Bill. But this Bill has one definite aim as far as I understand it, and that is to check and control organised betting—the organised exploitation for the sake of private gain of the propensity to bet—and because I believe that this Bill, if carried into law, will do something to check organised betting on a large scale, which has grave social consequences, I for one shall unhesitatingly vote for its Second Reading.
LORD BAYFORD: My Lords, after the speech which we have just heard I as a mere layman should not for a moment venture to pronounce any sort of opinion on what after all is a very difficult ethical problem, and that is, just where you draw the line between that which is perfectly innocent and that which is undoubtedly the reverse. The difference, for instance, between winning a turkey in a raffle at a village bazaar and breaking the bank at Monte Carlo seems to me to be one not of essence but of degree. Everyone would agree, I think, that the first was practically innocent; everyone would agree that the second was anything but innocent. There are infinite gradations between the two, and the difficulty with which the State has to deal in tackling a question like that is to know exactly where the line is to be drawn.
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I think we all fully admit what the last speaker said about the misery caused by gambling. What is not so often mentioned is the amount of pleasure, and very often quite innocent pleasure, which gambling in a mild degree does give. There was no better judge. I suppose, of various kinds of pleasure than Charles James Fox, who devoted to the racecourse and the gambling table what time he could spare from the furtherance of Liberal politics; and it was the opinion given by Charles James Fox that the greatest pleasure which existed was to win at cards, and the next greatest pleasure was to play cards and lose. That is an extreme case, which I do not suppose that any one in this House would endorse for a moment, but it is the fact that an enormous amount of innocent pleasure is got out of mild gambling. After men have been working hard, whether in an office in the City or in a factory or workshop, a good many of them leading fairly drab lives, the amusement to which they look forward is sometimes playing a rubber of bridge in the evening, or sometimes, if they are working at a factory, going to see the dogs run at one of these greyhound racecourses. A great deal of that pleasure is perfectly innocent, and the real difficulty with which the State has to deal is exactly where to draw the line.
I certainly am not going to vote against the Second Reading of this Bill. I think the present position is absurd. The attitude which the State has taken up in the past seems to me to be expressed somewhat in this sort of way: "Really it is wrong to gamble at all, but the practice is too popular to stop, and so we will put every sort of pettifogging difficulty in the way." Though I am not an authority upon the law on this subject, I believe that it is legal to make a 210.000 book, but it is very doubtful whether it is legal to have a whist drive. That is a question upon which I believe the Police authorities and the legal authorities in the country decline to express any opinion. So far as the present Bill clears up these difficulties, I think we ought to be grateful for it. That is all that I want to say on the general question, but I want to speak, not on the dog-racing part of the Bill at all but on Part II of the Bill, which deals with what the law is to be in the future with regard to lotteries,

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especially as they affect the clubs throughout the country.
I am speaking on behalf of the Association of Conservative Clubs of the country, of which I have the honour to be the Chairman. They number 1,500, and they have about half a million members. It is on their behalf that I want to say a word or two on Part II of the Bill. These clubs have "sweeps" on the big races, and they often have Christmas draws for turkeys, or something of that sort. Until now there has been no interference with that practice at all. The Royal Commission dealt with the matter and said:
"It is the practice of the Home Office to issue circulars to the police in England and Wales on matters affecting police work. The police have been informed in Home Office circulars that … private lotteries confined to the members of a genuine club, or society, should not be interfered with."
And they have dealt with the matter in one or two other paragraphs. When, however, we come to this Bill, and the provisions which are made, under Clause 22, to exempt private lotteries from the existing law, which declares all lotteries to be unlawful, the Bill goes on to impose certain conditions, and it is to these conditions that the workingmen's clubs take the most serious objection. These clubs have hitherto beer permitted to promote these lotteries without outside interference.
In Clause 22, subsection (2), paragraph (g), it is laid down that:
"before selling any tickets or chances, the promoters shall give by registered letter to the chief officer of police a notice, signed by each of them, stating the purposes for which they intend to promote the lottery and the full names and address of each of the promoters."
Now clubs are properly regarded as private concerns, and they feel that if they care to promote a sweep on the Derby, or a draw for a turkey, it should not be incumbent on them to acquaint the local police by registered letter, failing which each of the promoters of the lottery shall be "guilty of an offence." It is a new practice. In the past no such notice has been necessary. This obligation, and others imposed on such private promotions, have caused considerable irritation amongst the members of these various clubs who regard them as undue interference with their private concerns.
Now I come to Clause 25 of the Bill, which deals with search warrants. I do
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not want to say that it, would not be administered impartially. I have no doubt that, it would be, but you are sure to get the accusation made that there is one law for Pall Mall and another for Poplar, and any good you may do is really not worth the ill-feeling which such an allegation as that would cause. Then there is Clause 28 of the Bill. Under it any person guilty of an offence under any section contained in Part II of the Act shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding£100, and in the case of a second conviction to three months imprisonment or a fine not exceeding£200, or to both, while on conviction on indictment the maximum penalties are a year's imprisonment and a fine of£750, or both.
I do not propose to say for a moment that such extreme penalties are likely to be imposed for any irregularity in connection with an ordinary "sweep" or Christmas draw promoted in connection with a workingman's club, but the Bill provides for their imposition, and members of these clubs see the Bill, or see quoted in the papers paragraphs about the Bill, and they do not realise that these very heavy penalties are not going to be inflicted upon them. Naturally, they are regarded as out of all proportion to any offence which wittingly or unwittingly might be committed, particularly as hitherto such promotions could be instituted and carried through without any outside interference whatsoever. Further, under Section 28 (3) anything seized by the police, money, etc., is to be forfeited, while all documents, tickets, etc., relating to the lottery can be ordered by the court to be destroyed. This affects a great many clubs.
Altogether there are 14,300 registered clubs in England and Wales alone. Their total membership is probably about 3,000,000, of whom the majority are weekly wage-earners. They are decent, law-abiding citizens, and none the worse citizens for occasionally putting a shilling on a horse or in a sweepstake. Is it necessary to hedge round private lotteries, occasionally promoted by bona fide clubs as innocent diversions, with all the restrictions, obligations and penalties contained in this Bill?—obligations which are regarded by clubmen not only as irritating but insulting, They have been allowed to have their "sweeps" and Christmas draws without let or hindrance in the past, and no dire consequences have happened either to the participators

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therein or to the nation. It is really employing a Nasmyth hammer to crush a nut.
Why not let well alone? If the Government intend to proceed further with Part II of the Bill, or at any rate Clause 22 of it, that paragraph which necessitates giving notice of a, private lottery promoted by a bona fide club to the police, really should be eliminated altogether, and also Clause 25, giving magistrates power to issue search warrants. Clause 28, which deals with penalties and forfeitures, also seems to need drastic amendment, and I propose on the Committee stage to put down Amendments to that effect. I have been at a recent conference of Conservative clubmen in different parts of the country, and I have been surprised at the strong feeling which exists against these club regulations in the Bill. That part of it dealing with private lotteries and sweepstakes in a club is regarded as an unwarrantable interference, and that is a view which there is good ground for believing is shared by the vast majority of the 3,000,000 people who belong to these bona fide clubs.
LORD ELTON: My Lords, as this is the first occasion on which I have had the honour of addressing this House I shall not venture to detain you for more than a few minutes, and I shall confine myself entirely to Part II of the Bill, to which, I think, less attention has so far been devoted in the course of this debate, but which I think raises issues of little, if any, less importance to the public interest than those involved in Part I. If I may turn at once to Clause 20, the Irish Hospital Trust is engaged in promoting the sale of its tickets in other countries besides Great Britain, although, of course, Great Britain is by far the most lucrative field exploited, and in most of those countries, as in Great Britain, the sale of these tickets is a breach of the law. I think that the spectacle of this widespread and intricate commercial organisation, busily engaged in encouraging the citizens of other countries to break their own laws in the financial interests of the Irish Hospitals Trust, is a spectacle to which your Lordships will be very ready to put an end. There surely has been something grotesque in this country imposing special duties in an
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endeavour to recover from the Irish Free State an equivalent of moneys which we believe to be improperly withheld from us and at one and the same time permitting, at any rate since June, 1932, this large annual illegal subvention to the Irish Free State Exchequer.
In view of all this, I cannot help thinking that if there is any doubt present in your Lordships' minds about this provision of the Bill, it is likely not to be whether it is desirable, but only whether it is likely to be effective. If that is so, we are at once faced with the question, should we encourage in this country a substitute for the now prohibited sweepstakes organised across the Irish Channel? Well, more than one noble Lord who has already spoken in the course of this debate has professed himself ill-qualified to discuss the moral aspects of the lottery, and I should certainly be the last person to propose myself as an exception to that self-denying ordinance; but I do feel that possibly for our present purposes it may not be indispensable after all to consider the moral aspect of the lottery. For I must confess that for my own part I have been convinced by the Commission.
I feel that it has substantiated its view that if there is to be a successful lottery in this country it must be a monopoly; and therefore, if there is to be a monopoly, I myself follow the Commission in thinking that it must be a State monopoly. For, as I understand it, the fundamental conception of this Bill is that, if there is to be betting, the gambling instincts of the people shall not at any rate be exploited for private gain. If that is so, it seems to me that the conclusion follows readily, and I cannot think that the Government can have hesitated long before deciding not to add to their already numerous obligations that of promoting national sweepstakes. It would indeed, I think, be remarkable if during the last two and a half years, while the Government has been constantly and rightly exhorting us to practise the sober virtues of economy and hard work, it should at the same time have been using all its powers of persuasion, and possibly pressing into its service the vacant hoardings of the Empire Marketing Board for suitable advertisement, to encourage us to spend our money on a one-in-a-million chance of getting something for nothing.

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Whatever may be said for State lotteries, it cannot be denied that we have got along very well without them since they were prohibited in 1826, and the time to re-introduce them is surely not a moment when the people of this country are slowly and painfully raising themselves by the virtues of self-denial and patience from the trough of an unparallelled slump—itself, as many think, largely due to over-speculation. It was after considerable and varied experience, extending over several generations, that the Select Committee of 1808 decided against State lotteries, in good round English of which the noble Marquess who introduced the Bill has treated your Lordships to an example. As your Lordships are very well aware, 1808 was not a period in which rigid moral Puritanism was in the ascendant. It was a period deeply impressed by the genius of that Charles James Fox of whose tastes in gambling the noble Lord, Lord Bayford, has just given us such a vivid description, and I cannot but believe that the Select Committee of 1808 came to its conclusions, not as moral censors, but as statesmen; and in the passage of a hundred years for my part I see no change of circumstances which should lead us either to discard their experience or to differ from their conclusions.
There is just one further aspect of the public lottery—for so I think it must be described—and it has hardly been touched on so far in the course of the debate in your Lordships' House, and that is the great newspaper competitions for£15,000,£10,000,£1,000 a year and so forth. It is very interesting to see from the Report of the Commission that on that issue there is a deep conflict o' view within the Press itself. What I may perhaps be allowed to call the large circulation Press—I believe "mammoth" is the correct journalistic term—takes the view that giant competitions are part of the essential business of a newspaper. So deeply rooted is that view that the journal which represents the views of noble Lords opposite, while rarely ceasing to visit unearned income with opprobrium, is itself through these competitions almost weekly creating new owners of them.
The noble Lord who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench, Lord Sander-
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son, spent some time in his speech in contrasting the present system with a future state at which he and his friends desire to arrive, and in which, he assured your Lordships, there would be both less desire and less need for betting. When, however, I see the powerful journal which shares, and indeed officially represents, the noble Lord's views, simultaneously denouncing the so-called capitalist system and busily organising lotteries to create new capitalists, I find it very difficult, not to think that, if the noble Lord ever succeeds in arriving at his New Jerusalem, he may not find it, at any rate as regards its betting proclivities—and, I must add, its logic—not quite such an improvement on the present state of affairs as he has been led to expect.
Witnesses for the powerful section of the Press which takes this view about competitions and which, we are led to understand, retains permanent special technical staffs to conduct them, hold the view that without these competitions their great circulations could not be either obtained or subsequently maintained. On the other hand, the Press which enjoys a comparatively smaller circulation—and that section of the Press includes not only the bulk of the provincial Press but a great national and indeed international institution like The Times—takes on the whole the contrary view. It does not hold that the great competition is part of the essential business of a newspaper. Rather significantly, one of the witnesses before the Commission said that a provincial newspaper is "bought to be read." I suggest to your Lordships that the striking contrast which, broadly speaking, can be observed between the whole journalistic standards of the competition Press and the no-competition Press is not a coincidence.
I do not want to say anything about the effect on public morals of the great competitions, but I should like to say this final word as to their effect upon the Press of this country itself. That section of the Press, to put it mildly, which bases its large circulations upon such methods, is not the most reputable or the most responsible section. Foreign observers of this country have often expressed surprise that a country of such great political stability and political responsibility should have a popular Press

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which, despite good humour and public spirit, does exhibit so little of either of those qualities. For myself I believe that the people of this country—and I think this is particularly true of the working class—want their daily newspaper to be reasonably responsible and reasonably detached in the views and the news which it brings to their breakfast table. It is these great artificial adjuncts to the ordinary business of a newspaper which induces them to give this kind of Press its gigantic circulation. Your Lordships will, I hope, readily agree that the more these mammoth prizes enable the Press to rely upon such methods of gaining circulation the less will it have to rely upon presenting responsible and detached news and views in its columns.
I have spoken too long for one who has the honour of addressing your Lordships for the first time, and I only want to end by appealing to your Lordships on behalf of the Bill as a whole. If Solon and Socrates were working in conjunction to construct a measure upon betting and lotteries they could not hope to produce a measure which would win the comprehensive support of your Lordships, and I have been surprised, as I have listened to the course of this debate, at the degree of support which has emerged for this Bill. This is a Bill which is likely to end several vexatious anomolies, and it is further a Bill which is likely to earn no popularity and very few political dividends for its authors. That fact was used as an argument against it by at least one noble Lord, and possibly two, in the course of the debate. For myself I must confess I think it is an argument for the Bill. We have had to wait for a strong Government and an all-Party Government to introduce an unpopular measure, and I hope your Lordships will deem that an additional reason for supporting it.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I wish to congratulate my noble friend Lord Elton on his maiden speech, and I hope that in future he will take frequent occasion to intervene in our debates. I have long observed that there are two subjects on which Governments, of whatever political complexion, always hesitate to legislate—namely, licensing and betting. I had the honour of being associated with the recent Royal Commission on Licensing. Its Report appeared about two
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years ago. It is a moderate and constructive Report. Although the membership of the Commission represented nearly every section of opinion the Report was almost unanimous. Yet so far nothing has been done to give effect to any of our recommendations. I am not complaining of that, for I know that the Government have their hands full of other important matters, but I hope the subject is not being forgotten.
I can, however, congratulate the Government on introducing this Bill which, in my opinion, is a substantial measure of social reform. We had evidence before the Royal Commission on Licensing to the effect that while the evils of excessive drinking had largely diminished in recent years, gambling on the other hand was increasing to an alarming extent. The Royal Commission on Lotteries and Betting emphasised the increase in the gambling habit and the large amount of money turned over. They reached the conclusion that the total turnover in money to-day is probably at least as great as at any recent date and much greater than it was at the beginning of the century or earlier. Further, the amount of money expended represents a considerable spread in the gambling habit, since a larger proportion of the turnover than at any previous time is represented by the relatively small bets of the poorer classes of the community. Why has excessive drinking so largely diminished and gambling so largely increased? In the main, because the opportunities for gambling have largely increased and the facilities for drinking have been much curtailed. New opportunities for gambling have arisen and the existing law is unable to cope with them. The present Bill goes a long way to control those opportunities.
I wish to congratulate the noble Marquess on his speech on Second Reading. He took his stand on high principle, and challenged the opposition to the Bill in his presentation of it as a concrete recognition of duty. The Government have been accused of uncalled-for meddling with a system which were better left alone. The noble Marquess answered by declaring that:
"The control of gambling by clear legislation and legislation as definite as can be is a responsibility which no Government, and least of all a National Government, has the right to evade."

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Although I should have wished that the Bill had contained all the recommendations of the Royal Commission, I am satisfied that the Government have pursued a sound and courageous course. Some of the new opportunities of gambling are dog racing on greyhound tracks, lottery devices, certain newspaper competitions, and the football pool.
Greyhound tracks are spreading throughout the country with remarkable rapidity. As Lord Askwith reminded us, the attendances are generally large at those race-meetings, but it is the amount of money that is turned over that matters, for that tends to show whether or not the main object of the attendance at the meetings is sport or gambling. The Royal Commission have given us some indication as to the amount of money turned over. According to the Report, it appears that on tracks affiliated to the National Greyhound Racing Society the gross turnover on the totalisator, before it was declared illegal in 1932, was approximately£8,000,000 a year. In addition there was betting on licensed tracks carried on with bookmakers and betting on unlicensed tracks carried on with bookmakers and the totalisator. At several of the licensed greyhound tracks as many as 200 or 300 bookmakers are present when racing takes place. The Commission concluded that the total turnover of betting on greyhound tracks must be very considerable, probably several times the amount of the turnover on thetotalisator—that is, several times£8,000,000 in the course of a year.
These figures show, I think, that the attraction to these tracks is the gambling rather than the sport. The rapid hold that dog racing has secured on the younger members of the community has greatly strengthened and increased during recent years. Reference has been made to the late Lord Brentford, and I shall also refer to him. In 1928, speaking on the Second Reading of the Dog Racing Bill, he said it was clear that, in a Police view, very few young people took any part in betting on greyhound tracks. Four years later, in 1932, one of the witnesses before the Royal Commission estimated that the exclusion from greyhound racing tracks of young persons apparently under the age of twenty-one lowered the attendance by 35 per
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cent. These figures had been given to him as the result of observation.
The granting of control over the establishment and development of dog racing tracks is of great importance, and will prevent financial interests imposing tracks on reluctant communities. The Bill proposes that the licensing authority should be the county council and the council of the county borough. It has been suggested that these bodies are inappropriate for this work, and it has been further suggested that the standing joint committee of the county and the watch committee of the county borough are the most appropriate bodies. I have nothing to say against the standing joint committee or the watch committee, and I am quite content with the county council and the county borough as the licensing authority, but if any change in the licensing authority is to be made in the Bill, might I suggest for the consideration of the noble Marquess that the Justices of the Peace for the county and for the county borough should be substituted. A non-elected body has in many respects qualifications for this kind of duty which are not perhaps possessed by an elected body. It would be disastrous if organised bodies of bookmakers were to intervene in local elections and spend large sums of money in furthering their own views. Moreover, the substitution of Justices for the county council and county borough council would be in keeping with precedent. Under the Racecourse Licensing Act of 1879 the Justices in Quarter Sessions are the licensing authority, and it would save confusion if the Justices were to become the licensing authority under the Bill as well.
The Bill proposes a moratorium of five years for existing tracks. Inasmuch as many of those tracks were put down in opposition to the expressed mind of the community, the period of five years is generous. Indeed, it might with advantage be curtailed. It will doubtless be said at the end of the five years that the adjoining occupiers have become used to the nuisance or inconvenience and should continue to put up with it. If the proposals of the Bill are adhered to they will go a long way to restrict and control the facilities for gambling now so freely offered at greyhound tracks, and I hope there will be no modification of these restrictions.

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The Royal Commission were unanimous in their judgment against the legalising of public lotteries. The provisions in this Part of the Bill are to be welcomed as tending to clarify and strengthen the law against such lotteries. The Bill makes it an offence to print and publish advertisements, results, reports and other matters relating to foreign sweepstakes which would in any way serve as an inducement to participate. I believe that these provisions will do much to check the lottery menace. There is a laudable movement on foot at the present time on the part of trade unions and many employers to shorten the hours of labour so that workpeople may have mere leisure. It would be a travesty if the present opportunities for gambling were to continue to be provided whereby people may be induced to spend their additional leisure in gambling at dog tracks and similar places. It is idle to say that the Bill is a piece of class legislation. On the contrary, it aims at remedying a great social evil. It seeks in the interests of the people to control and regulate organised gambling and provides for fair dealing between the bookmaker and the backer, and endeavours so far as it goes to establish clean sport in the interests of all.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I hesitate to intervene on this subject, and I do so only because of the fact that I was for many years a London Member of Parliament and in that capacity had frequent opportunity of coming in contact with the views of my constituents and of all sections of them. I have never in my life had a bet on a horse, on a dog, or a motor car, or anything else, and I am entirely disinterested in the matter. I have no sort of connection whatever with any enterprise, either direct or indirect. Like many of your Lordships who have already addressed the House, I do not want to see an indefinite extension of gambling, but when I have said that, neither do I want to see any unreasonable restriction of the ordinary harmless pleasures of the working-man.
The noble Marquess when introducing the Bill the other day appealed to your Lordships to approach this matter with an open mind. He further went on to say that the ordinary Party divisions are not reflected in the attitude towards a Bill of this nature. No, the ordinary
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Party divisions are certainly not reflected. On the other hand, I am sure the Government must realise perfectly well that if this Bill errs on the side of severity, if it goes too far in interfering with what the industrial population regard as their freedom to enjoy harmless pleasures, then, I submit, the Government will have to take the blame, and the Conservative Party as the largest Party in the National Government will undoubtedly get the major portion of the blame. In that I agree very much with the noble Viscount who moved the rejection of the Bill.
I have listened to most of the speeches so far made upon the Bill. There seems to be a certain confusion of thought. Many of the speeches would have been better directed to a Bill which proposed to do away with all forms of gambling in every shape and form. But that is not the Government idea. The noble Marquess when introducing the Bill stated that the Government had two principles in dealing with it. He said private morals were a matter for the individual conscience and tire improvement of individual behaviour must be left to the influences of religious education. We cannot attempt, he said, to determine the vexed question whether gambling is or is not immoral. He also went on to say that the question the Government have had to face is a practical question—namely, what measures are required in the public interest to prevent the exploitation of certain facilities which, if unchecked, are universally recognised as potential sources of danger to society. I quite agree with all that. At the same time I think there is a danger in this Bill, so far at any rate as Part I is concerned, that it may go too far and by doing so may make it impossible for many of the greyhound racing tracks to continue.
We may, or may not, like greyhound racing, but at any rate it has an enormous public, and I submit that what we want to do with regard to greyhound racing is exactly what the Government have in mind—to prevent the exploitation of the public. On the other hand, we do not want to go so far as to make it impossible for a properly conducted greyhound track to continue. Every one of us must wish to see the end of dog casinos, and in this connection perhaps your Lordships would allow me to recite

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just one or two causes which have given rise to such institutions. In 1927 the National Greyhound Racing Control Club was formed and also the National Greyhound Racing Society. In 1930 and 1931 the "tote" was declared to be legal both in Scotland and in England, with the result that many tracks were immediately formed and grew up round the "tote." These tracks were merely au excuse to have a "tote," a sort of gambling machine, not at all the sort of idea which any of us would favour. Most of the tracks formed under these auspices have not been recognised by either the Club or the Society. They hold as many as twelve meetings a week and they include Sundays in their operations. The companies who promote these tracks own the dogs and are financially interested in the betting. There is any amount of substitution. Dogs are painted all sort of colours and, in fact, I believe the only way you can tell whether a dog has been substituted or not is by the colour of its toe-nails. In fact, one may say that the racing is entirely subservient to the betting.
The Greyhound Racing Control Club and the National Greyhound Racing Society did what they could to meet the situation. They introduced a system of licensing, with the result that fifty-eight. tracks are licensed, and I am informed that they include all the best tracks in the country. Some figures were given to your Lordships by the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, last week, but there are one or two figures which perhaps your Lordships would permit me to give. First of all the attendances at these licensed tracks—I am not including unlicensed tracks—amount to something like 20,000,000 a year. Then the licensed, properly conducted tracks give away a large amount of money every year in prizes to the owners of the dogs. The noble Lord, Lord Askwith, told your Lordships that there are no fewer than 21,000 private owners of dogs. Those 21,000 owners compete for a sum which aggregates£416,000 in prize money.
Your Lordships listened to, and I am sure enjoyed, the remarkable speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Dalzell, and for my part I entirely sympathise with what he said when he pointed out how important it was to keep the sporting idea to the fore in this matter. When it is realised that there
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are 21,000 private owners of dogs—many of them working men who pay sums of£20 or£30 in order to own a dog—and that they compete for so large an amount of prize money, I think we can say that so far as licensed tracks are concerned there is a real element of sport. These tracks are not just dog casinos. There are other figures which I could give your Lordships. For instance, the amount paid to the Government is very consider able—some£200,000 odd—and the amount paid in local rates is no less than£50,000 odd. That all comes from licensed tracks.
The first objection which I wish to submit to your Lordships with regard to the present Bill is that it errs on the side of excessive restriction. I have made inquiries and I understand that it is simply not possible for the ordinary track or, indeed, for any track to exist with only 104 meetings a year. That number of meetings will simply not provide the revenue required to pay out prizes. It will mean that these men who have invested their money in buying their dogs will find that their dogs are worth nothing. I do not know why one class of people, whom I consider ought to be encouraged, should be treated with such severity. Then there is the question of the fixation of clays. It is proposed by this Bill that there shall be only two days a week, that those days shall be fixed by the local authority, and that meetings in the same area are to be all on the same day. I submit that this must entail cutthroat competition of a very severe character. It also entails the result that racing may be legal on one day and illegal on another, or if the days are lumped together by the local authorities, as is possible under this Bill, racing at one period of the year will be legal and at another period of the year illegal. That, I submit, is not what we really want. We want reasonable liberty for greyhound racing.
I do not wish to see anything done to greyhound racing that is not done to any other form of sport. To deal too severely with greyhound racing, and to allow other forms of sport such as horse racing to continue without the same restrictions, would be to lay ourselves open to a charge of class legislation. I would like to make another point with regard to this fixation of days. No allowance is made for weather. It is quite obvious that if racing is restricted by local authorities to

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certain days, and there is no provision for changing meetings to some other day of the week or some other portion of the year, it may happen that if the owners of a track strike a patch of bad weather, of fog or rain, it will be difficult for them to continue to operate.
Then there is the question of licensing by county councils. On that I would like to suggest to your Lordships that county councils were not established with this idea. It is likely to give rise to all sorts of difficulties. I think personally that it is likely to introduce the trouble that has appeared from time to time in connection with licensing under the drink laws. It is likely to bring greyhound racing into Party politics. Undoubtedly, candidates will get questionnaires: Are you or are you not in favour of greyhound racing? Are you or are you not in favour of betting? That is a most undesirable thing to be brought into county council affairs. I must say that I agree strongly with the attitude of the London County Council as outlined the other day by the noble Lord, Lord Snell. I would like to point out also that there is no sort of appeal provided against the decision of the local authority. I think there should be some sort of appeal allowed. Otherwise a local authority, after a period of five years, out of pure caprice might put an end to a perfectly well-conducted track. IF that is done in connection with greyhound racing, why should it not be done in connection with the Derby or with the cricket test matches—perhaps that is not a very good instance, because there is no betting there—or in connection, say, with the Football Association cup final? Why should we single out this sport for so severe a restriction as that embodied in this Bill?
With regard to the operation of the totalisator, it is true that the Bill provides that greyhound racecourses may operate the totalisator, but I should like to submit to your Lordships that no totalisator can possibly operate at so low a percentage as 3 per cent. It leaves no provision for recouping capital cost, and it would simply mean that the management would have to concentrate on encouraging people to bet—quite the last thing that we really want them to do—in order to pay the cost of the totalisator's operation, and there would be the danger that the betting might become more important than the sport. I have
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here certain figures with winch I have been provided which relate to certain actual specified tracks, and they may be of interest.
These are the figures relating to Wembley, one of the most important tracks in the London area: The capital cost of the installation of the totalisator on that track was over£21,000; the revenue at 10 per cent. of the pools plus breakages was 252,000 but the cost of the operation of this track was no less a sum than£21,800 and the percentage of expenditure to pools was 4.5. If the totalisator had been operated on the basis of 3 per cent. and breakages to the nearest penny, it would have shown a loss in the period in question, the year 1932, of£5,971. That is one of the best conducted tracks in the London area, I am told.
I also have here the figures for the Welsh White City at Cardiff. Again, if the totalisator had been operating on the basis of 3 per cent. with breakages to the nearest penny, it would have shown a loss for the period of£4,270. Those are two of the biggest tracks in this country. With regard to the White City, a track with which probably many of your Lordships are acquainted, I am informed that there the average salary paid to the totalisator staff per meeting was£150, and to meet this item alone, on the basis of 3 per cent. it would be necessary for the management to take 100,000 shilling units per meeting, a figure considerably higher than the average taken when the totalisator was in operation before. I merely mention these figures in order to show that as the Bill stands at present greyhound racing is being altogether too severely dealt with under the Bill. Another point I should like to put forward is that the Bill makes no provision for the adequate supervision of the operation of the totalisators. If we are going to have totalisators on the greyhound racecourses, I think they ought to he properly supervised and there ought to be some protection for the public to ensure that they are not victimised.
I submit that this Bill is going to perpetuate and aggravate all the worst features of greyhound racing and is going to eliminate some of the best of them at present. It makes no provision to ensure the honesty of racing or to protect the workingman against fraudulent management and dishonest bookmakers.

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I should like to reinforce the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Dalzell, which I think was that the National Greyhound Racing Club should be recognised and should be given power by the Government to license tracks. If this is impossible, I should like to submit to the Government that an ad hoc body should be formed to license all the tracks of the country. That ad hoc body could easily include representatives of local authorities, so that they would still come in and be able to have their say as to whether tracks should be licensed or not; but at any rate it would avoid the possible hardships which might arise under the Bill.
There are various Amendments which at a suitable stage, if it is possible, I shall desire to put forward. One is that there should be not less than four meetings per week and that there should be not more than eight races at any one meeting. That would, I think, be a reasonable provision and would prevent undue betting and gambling. Another Amendment which I should wish to propose would be that there should be no fixed days and there should be freedom of choice to the management. This would allow for local difficulties and weather conditions. Then I would also propose that there should be no local licensing; that the percentage from the totalisator should be more in the region of 8 per cent. than in the region of 3 per cent.; that there should be freedom of choice as to the actual totalisator used; that there should be legalisation of pari-mutuel betting on the course as in horse racing; and that the Bill should be amended to ensure that greyhound racing is carried on under a proper code of rules.
I must apologise for having detained your Lordships all too long in this matter, but my one anxiety is, first of all, that we should not unduly restrict the pleasures of the workingman, and that unless we are going to say that betting is entirely immoral and should be stopped, we should not unduly restrict the opportunities for it. After all, any one of your Lordships who can afford a telephone and is in touch with a bookmaker can, I understand, have a bet at any time when you want to do so, and I think that if we unduly restrict the opportunities of the workingman' for
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betting we do again lay ourselves open to the charge of passing class legislation. I really want to see a square deal for the properly-conducted greyhound racecourse. I am entirely in favour of such parts of the Bill as deal with unlicensed courses, and also with Part II of the Bill which deals with lotteries and so on.
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Reading, owing to indisposition, is not in his place, for be would have preferred to indicate the prevailing view of those who are generally associated with him in regard to the provisions of this Bill. I rise merely to say that those on these Benches are prepared to give a wholehearted and general support to the Second Reading of the Bill, reserving to themselves, of course, the right of expressing their varying views upon Amendments such as those to which the noble Earl who has just sat down has referred, when we reach the Committee stage. On behalf of those with whom I am associated I should like to thank the Government for the courage which they have shown in introducing a measure of so contentious a character, and also I would congratulate the noble Marquess who is in charge of the Bill on the very lucid exposition of a somewhat complicated Bill which he delivered in our previous debate. And may I sympathise with him in the fact that on a fine afternoon like this he has not been able to be in another place on the first day when a very important meeting is being held?
Personally I see no sin whatsoever in backing an opinion or a choice, or in trying one's luck from time to time if occasion presents itself, but the betting laws seem to me to be uncertain, anomalous and illogical, and they do require amendment. Many of the proposals of the Government, I think, commend themselves to those with whom I am associated. We welcome not so much the legalisation of certain matters new in form which are now illegal in connection with betting, but we do welcome proposals which are going to restrain children and young persons from taking the opportunities now before them, and which if left unremedied are likely to produce evils in connection with their careers. We welcome the provision which enables the days of racing to be

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limited, at any rate where public gambling is associated with the meetings. We also are glad that some control will be given to representative bodies in connection with these race meetings, whether they are of one kind or another.
There has admittedly been in this country an increased tendency to gambling and, as has already been mentioned, there has been a considerable increase in the exploitation for private gain of the public tendency to bet—an exploitation that ought to be abolished. The evils attending gambling are known to us all. We have all seen homes wrecked, and misery and poverty produced, by excessive gambling on the part of those who have not got very much money to spend on betting, and those of us who have been in business have often seen young careers ruined by debt contracted in connection with horse racing. Men have then been tempted to take money, with no intention of committing any fraud whatsoever, but when their investments on other horses have failed they have been found out, their careers have been ruined, and in some cases they have ended up with a term of imprisonment for embezzlement.
Personally I believe that all sport and all recreation can be conducted without the amount of wagering which to-day is rampant. In my younger days, when playing cricket and football for my University and county, I never recollect any case in which anybody playing those games found it necessary to have a wager of any kind, and yet all enjoyed the sport just as much. To-day, in connection with football, I am afraid there has grown up a spirit of taking a pecuniary interest in the game rather than of playing it for the love of the game, and I should like the old system to be more prevalent. deplore the irregularities which have occurred in horse racing, known as in-and-out running of horses, and the "pulling" which is probably due to individuals associated with horse racing or the stables being allowed to back horses. I remember that on one occasion at a race meeting I saw a horse which I rather fancied being led by a rather glum boy round the paddock. I got near him and said under my breath: "Are you on the job to-day?" And he said: "No." I watched that horse, and although I cannot say he was "pulled" he came in with the ruck. We deplore racing and betting
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if it is going to lead to irregularities of that kind, but if this Bill passes it is a satisfaction to us to feel that there is going to be considerable discouragement of these sweepstakes, which in my opinion have become almost an abomination
I am told that the hospitals in Ireland have gained about£25,000,000 by the sweepstakes raised in that country, that enormous sums of money have been given in prizes, and that 75 per cent. of the amount contributed has been contributed by the people of this country. Only a short time ago in the South of France a man ran after me with a ticket in one of the Irish sweepstakes, for they are being distributed in all foreign countries. It is time that this evil was put an end to, and I believe that this Bill will do a great deal to put a stop to it. I hope the Bill will reach the Statute Book, with no doubt a certain amount of amendment, and that it will tend to diminish many of the evils which at present occur. I hope and believe that it will assist in promoting and recognising healthy emulation in the conduct of sport, recreation and amusement. Fondness for recreation and sport is characteristic of the British people, and I believe a great deal of the monotony and deadly dullness of industrial and commercial life is neutralised by one's being able to attend these meetings, which I hope in future, after the passage of this Bill, will be conducted in s different spirit than that in which some have been conducted in the past.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, I do not intend to inflict upon you a speech at this hour of the night, but I should like to make two points which occur to me as rather important. I do not think it is necessary to support the Bill, which was so ably introduced by the noble Marquess, further than to say that there is still a general opinion in many quarters that the voluntary hospitals of this country are in danger and ought to be supported by sweepstakes or lotteries. I would like to point out in the first place that the voluntary hospitals of this country are in a very flourishing condition, if we consider the very bad times through which we have gone in the last few years. Secondly, I would like to point out that the money given to the voluntary hospitals last year and previous

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years is very much in excess of what may be believed to be the case.
Let us take the case of the London hospitals. In 1931 the aggregate surplus for the year on the whole of the hospitals in London, after deducting all deficits, was£76,000; that is to say, some of them did badly but others did well, with the result that there was an aggregate surplus of£76,000. In 1932, the latest year for which I can give your Lordships figures, the aggregate surplus was£101,000, and without knowing what the figures for this year will be we are pretty certain that they will be better than those for 1932. With regard to the voluntary gifts to maintenance and building and endowment, Sir Arthur Stanley gave the Royal Commission the 1930 figures for the provincial hospitals as well. If we include what was given for the support of London hospitals in 1930, you have a total given in that year of between£12,000,000 and£13,000,000. I think that is a very sound figure, and one which will make you consider that the view still held in many quarters that our hospitals must be supported in this extraordinary way by sweepstakes and lotteries, is unfounded. I do not say that our voluntary hospitals will lose all this voluntary support if we give them the support of lotteries and sweepstakes, but I do ask your Lordships to bear in mind that we should thereby be jeopardising a gift of approaching£13,000,000 a year. That ought to be borne in mind, as well as the fact that London hospitals have shown a large surplus.
LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE: My Lords, at this late hour I do not wish to detain you, but first of all I want to congratulate the Government upon attacking this extremely difficult national question. They have shown great courage in doing so, and I am delighted that my old friends on the Liberal Benches have been so unanimous in praising this Bill. I can remember a time in another place not very many years ago when I myself and another member were the only two who went forward to try to legalise and to minimise the difficulties of betting in dealing with the Totalisator Bill. We have advanced since those days, and undoubtedly the Government are trying in this Bill to deal with a problem that is not only cutting right across the moral condition of our people but is a real social
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necessity. This problem has remained for years and years without any legislation. Not for a moment do I say that I agree with all that is in this Bill, but I do say that there is a very great deal in it which is good. I am delighted that the noble Marquess in the name of the Government thought fit to withdraw Clause 3. It led to a great deal of heart-burning and complaint of unfair treatment, and I am delighted that at the early stage that they did they decided to withdraw that rather difficult clause.
When we talk of gambling there is always a tendency to think that it is a question only of horse racing and dog racing. There is a very much more pernicious form of gambling on the Stock Exchange and other places, which is often entirely overlooked. Therefore, I think that those who are opposed to gambling as a whole should look upon our human frailties with a little more consideration than they do. The Bill deals with a great many points which of necessity had to be dealt with, but there is one point which was brought out most clearly I think by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Dalzell—namely, that the licensing authority for dog racing should not be the local authority. The local authority will bring it into local politics. I realise quite well that it will only happen once in five or seven years. Still, you bring the whole question of dog racing into the affairs of the local authority by making them the body for licensing tracks, and I should have thought it was far better to have some ad hoc authority, composed of people of standing who could adjudicate on the necessities of areas, and would avoid the political troubles which we undoubtedly shall have if the question remains in the hands of local authorities. Such a body could, after all, well take into consideration the views of local authorities, and therefore to a large extent give effect to the wishes of the local authorities in the matter.
My noble friend Lord Howe raised the question of the totalisator in regard to dog racing. It is ridiculous to suppose that a totalisator can be run at all with a profit of 3 per cent., and if it is the intention of the Government to suppress this form of betting altogether, well, why not say so Any one who has had any experience of the cost of running a totalisator properly—and I have had

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some experience abroad—must agree that this percentage is far too low. If you are going to allow the totalisator for horse racing and the percentages deducted there are such as allow for the expenses incurred before anything is paid in the way of dividends, I think that dog racing ought to be treated on the same terms, and I suggest to the Government that this clause requires amendment. If the Government could have foreseen in 1928 what was going to happen in the running of the totalisator, I believe that they would have had little to do with the Betting Control Board; and I think the Government are very wise indeed not to go and step into the totalisator on dog racing and bring in a board with some Government control. I am perfectly certain that at the present moment the finance of that concern is in a very difficult position.
Another point to which I wish to draw attention is this. It may be very suit able to have 104 days in the year for dog racing. I do not say that that number is either excessive or too little; but I think that to say that all dog racing where betting is allowed must be on the same day of the week in an area. is ridiculous. I suggest that if there were a Jockey Club for dog racing the one thing they would avoid would be the holding of racing on the same clays in the same area. I suggest that, instead of increasing the number of days in the year on which betting can take place at dog racing tracks, the Government should examine the possibility of having dog racing on different days in the various localities. After all, it is a sport which the poorer people enjoy. They go in large numbers to see it, and if we can enable dog racing to he conducted under proper conditions, I think it is a very good thing to encourage people to enjoy their sport if they want it. I believe in the freedom of the individual to enjoy himself as he wants to and, as long as he does not become a nuisance to the community, I do not see any reason why he should not enjoy himself in his own way.
There are two other small points. The first arises under Clause 22 (2) (q). I think it is a hardship to say that clubs which want to run lotteries should have to apply to the police and give particulars. Clubs run various sweepstakes, and naturally they consider that it is
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their private business. Another point is raised in Clause 25. I think that clause wants very careful looking into. In that clause you give the power to search. I do not know what noble Lords think about it, but I think that the power to search should be given with very, very great care, and some Amendment ought to be made to that clause. At present it lays down that any Justice of the Peace can, on certain information, give the power of search, which lasts for a month. I for one would hesitate to agree that that is a right and proper thing to do. But, notwithstanding all these minor points, on which undoubtedly there is great controversy, and in regard to which Amendments will no doubt be moved, I congratulate the Government on this Bill, and I give the Second Reading wholehearted support.
THE EARL or KINNOULL: My Lords, when I first saw the text of this Bill I thought it such a rotten Bill that I put down a Motion for its rejection. After I had heard the speech of the noble Marquess who moved the Second Reading I rather suspected that he thought it was a rotten Bill too, because he was very conciliatory in his speech. But on more mature reflection I came to the conclusion that this Bill could be amended. The first criticism I would make is this. This Government is a National Government, brought in at a time of alleged crisis to deal with that crisis, and it was given no mandate whatever to tinker with betting. This Bill is sheer class legislation; you cannot get away from that. The noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, who referred to me in his speech, said he was sure that I had that in mind. It is quite true; I did have it in mind. This Bill restricts the poor man's sport. I cannot see why on earth poor people should be deprived of their sport. Rich men can go racing every day of the week, but the poor man under this Bill is restricted to two days a week.
It has been said that greyhound racing is a social menace. I believe that the figures show that on the track in Liverpool, where 1,500 people attended every night, or 20,000 a week all told, it worked out that they each spent 2s. per head, per week on everything, including entrance fee, betting, and refreshments at the club. Is that a social menace? I am very surprised that this Government has not

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even concurred with the Interim Report of its own Royal Commission, because I think it is in paragraph 77 of the Interim Report that the Commission definitely suggest that the totalisator at greyhound tracks should be abolished as soon as possible.
Of course, you cannot deal with gambling by legislation. I think the noble Marquess said that in his speech, and I absolutely concur. To start with, the whole capitalist system is based on gambling, as the noble Lord said just now when talking about gambling on the Stock Exchange. You can bet on anything. The other day I heard a story of a man in a public-house with some friends who started to make a book on what sort of hat the next person coming through the swing doors would be wearing. He was laying two to one against a squash hat, three to one against a bowler hat, four to one against a top hat, and so on. Everyone backed his fancy, but they all lost their money as the next man to enter was a man with a fez selling carpets. It is absolutely absurd to think you can restrict gambling by legislation; it just cannot be done.
The other day I received—I have no doubt every member of your Lordships' House received—a summary of statement on the Betting Bill made on behalf of the British Greyhound Tracks Control Society, Limited. I read it through. Although I did not agree with everything in it, I thought it was a very excellent statement. For instance, I do not agree that 234 days' racing is enough. Personally I think greyhound racing should be allowed every night. of the week except. Sunday. Then they suggest payment of dividends "to the nearest penny under." That is no doubt very sensible. Also they say that the hand." tote "should be permitted as on a horse racecourse and they say the hand" tote "is used on the vast majority of racecourses. Probably only Ascot and Newmarket have electrically-operated "totes." I should like to point out to my noble friend Lord Sanderson that actually the mechanical "tote" is a thing of the past.
The next point they make is that chartered accountants should be present at meetings. I think everyone will agree with that, because the public must have some sort of protection. It is usually a firm of chartered accountants so that a
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man cannot be "got at" as it were. They probably send a different man every time and the public do get a safeguard, and can see that they are not being swindled. The present system is unfair because it gives merely approximate odds. Supposing there are a thousand bets and the approximate odds are three to one and only 2s. 9d. is paid, it would mean that 3,000 pennies would be lost to the public. It is therefore very necessary to have chartered accountants. Then, the society say:
"All units betted to be shown during the progress of betting and finals pools exhibited prior to the commencement of the race."
That is very sensible because the public can definitely tell how the betting is going on, and they can work it out for themselves if their dog wins.
The next point is:
"All electric and mechanical 'totes' to show units betted; this excludes 'totes' which only show approximate odds."
That is of course the point I have just dealt with. Then they deal with purlmutuel betting. Here may I say I did think when I first read the Bill that the only good clause in it was the football pool clause? And now the noble Marquess has informed us he is withdrawing that. If they withdraw the clause about football pools why on earth should they not withdraw the clause about pools on dog racing? This double and treble system is most popular. Practically everyone who goes racing indulges in doubles and trebles and even quadruples. Then the society says that "off-the-course" betting should be allowed as on horse racecourses. If it is allowed on horse racecourses, why on earth should it not be allowed on dog tracks? I cannot see any difference between the two. It seems to me very illogical.
With regard to licensing by local authorities, I think that is a sensible provision, with all due deference to my noble friend Lord Snell., who spoke on behalf of the London County Council. I think they are the people who should license these tracks, because they know the amenities of the district and they are the best qualified. The next point the society makes is that all tracks should race under one code of rules. That seems to me to be fair, but they suggest that
"as at the moment only ninety tracks out of 225 or more existing, race under any racing rules, the remaining 134 should be

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compelled to join up either under the rules of the B.G.T.C.S. or the N.G.R.C. This would entail amongst other provisions the registration and identification of dogs—these prevent substitution and guarantee the public a fair deal."
I think most people know that very often at these unlicensed tracks not run under any rules at all dogs can be substituted. You get a good dog put in in the name of another man and that sort of thing. I think that what is proposed is very sensible.
Then they also suggest that betting facilities should he optional to the track managements—betting by totalisator only, betting by bookmaker only, or betting by both, and that it should be carried on at the discretion of the management of the track. That seems to me perfectly fair. I cannot see why bookmakers must be allowed on the tracks whereas the totalisator is optional. It does not seem at all reasonable. When they come to the charges to bookmakers for admission, they suggest a minimum of£. 10s. and a maximum of£5. If you deduct the difference between the admission charged to racecourses and the admission charged to dog tracks, it shows it is quite normal, because the average admission price at the racecourse is somewhere about 6s. or 7s. whereas the average admission price for dog tracks is in the region of sixpence. I think that is a very helpful suggestion.
Then they say:
"No credit on-the-course betting to be permitted. This has the effect of minimising gambling and has a tendency to bring betting within reasonable proportions; the big gambler who usually bets on credit being a distinct menace."
I rather agree with what they have to say. They suggest a minimum deposit by bookmakers of£10 and a maximum of£40. That is to safeguard the public, to guarantee payment, and to prevent welshing. They suggest also that competitions of skill should be allowed on events taking place on the track on the same day. I think it is these people who have a track where they give away£50 free every night to any one who can forecast the exact order of the dogs. This costs the public nothing, and personally I cannot see any objection whatever to it. Then we come to Sunday racing. I entirely agree that dogs should not race on Sundays any more than horses do.
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I am sorry to detain your Lordships so long and I shall summarise as much as possible, but I should like to deal with the speech made by Lord Hamilton of Dalzell. The noble Lord is an undoubted authority on horse racing, but I cannot see that ipso facto he should speak authoritatively on greyhound racing. Is the noble Lord not aware that there are licensing bodies other than the National Greyhound Racing Club who licence and exercise very efficient control over other greyhound tracks? I refer to the originators of the leaflet, of which all noble Lords have had a copy, issued by the British Greyhound Tracks Control Society. I disagree most profoundly with the establishment of any control board for greyhound racing, but even if an authority such as this were given legislative sanction, I put the claims of this society on a par with the society which the noble Lord mentioned in his speech. My opposition to a control board should not be taken to mean that I am opposed to licensing bodies such as the British Greyhound Tracks Control Society or the National Greyhound Racing Club in so far as they lay down rules for the conduct of the actual racing itself. With regard to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, he covered up the fact, whether intentionally or unintentionally I do not know, that at least one other body licenses and controls the sport of greyhound racing. This other body, which I referred to in my remarks a moment ago, is the British Greyhound Tracks Control Society. Before anything is done, I must suggest that the licensing authority for which the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, speaks should be asked to cooperate with the other licensing body and bring forward joint Amendments to the Bill.
I would like to refer for a moment also, very briefly, to the speech of the most reverend Prelate the Bishop of London. He used the Royal Commission's Report to substantiate his case. May I point out to the House that the evidence given by the greyhound interests was given before the totalisator was declared illegal, which would necessarily make such evidence not so comprehensive as would otherwise have been the case? The most reverend Prelate's arguments were levelled against gambling in general, and I must ask him, if greyhound racing were curtailed does he

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suggest that money invested in the dogs would not flow into other channels? Does he suggest that the money invested on dogs would be lost altogether? I suggest it is merely a transference from one pocket to the other, and, surely, the balance which goes to the management is also not lost but is circulated in the form of wages, the purchase of dogs, and a multitude of other things.
Incidentally, while on that point, I may say it is perfectly true, if the Bill stands as it now is, 3 per cent. only is to be allowed to the totalisator. I think the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said it would be utterly impossible to carry on dog-racing at all on those terms. It has been shown in the case of horse racing that the Betting Control Board were forced to allow 10 per cent. or 12 per cent., and even then they had to take off-the course, money in addition before they could show a profit. Therefore, with only two, days a week allowed for dog racing and only 3 per cent. to the totalisator, it means that automatically greyhound facing tracks would close down. Among the things that that would mean is that thousands and thousands of dogs would be placed on the market, for greyhounds are of no earthly use except for this racing. Greyhound breeding has become quite a big industry. You have only to look at the stud books to see that racing greyhounds have quadrupled themselves in two years. It has actually become a big industry, and one should have regard to that fact. It is always easy to be destructive and not always so easy to be constructive. But in this case I think all that is wanted is a quite simple Bill to legalise the totalisator on greyhound tracks. I think all sections of public opinion, with the possible exception of the very few who want to prohibit all forms of betting altogether, are in agreement that totalisators on these tracks should be legalised.
The second provision I would suggest would be that these tracks should be allowed to hold one meeting every night, except Sunday, and in addition one matinee, say on a Saturday afternoon or some other afternoon. After all, why should the poor man be forbidden his little bit of sport in the evenings while rich men go racing every day of their lives? Surely the noble Marquess who moved the Second Reading of the Bill, who is himself a well-known owner of
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racehorses, will see the fairness of this. Would he like to be restricted to going to races on only two days a week? It is grossly unfair thus to penalise the working class. The next point I make is that independent chartered accountants should be in charge of the totalisators and should produce to the public the odds as to the various dogs at the beginning of each race. This, as I have said, is designed to protect the public from any possible. swindling, and I think it must be acceptable to everyone. The final suggestion that I have to make is that the deduction for expenses taken by the owners of the track from the totalisator should be 5 per cent. This is only 2 per cent. higher than that suggested in the Bill, and I think that, with racing six nights a week and one matinee, the owners should make what is a fair and proper profit. This will also stop those who in the past have tried to get rich quick on the small tracks by taking a large percentage from their totalisators and not telling the public how much they were taking. I hope the Government will see their way either to withdraw this Bill altogether and introduce a fresh Bill on the lines I have suggested, or accept such Amendments to this Bill as will give effect to the suggestions I have put forward.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, after the eloquent and constructive speech we have just heard—I am afraid I did not hear nearly so much of it as I would have desired—and as time is getting very short, I wish to say only a very few words. The noble Lord, Lord Snell, on behalf of the London County Council, the other night mentioned that the County Council had passed a resolution that they did not think it right that the duty of being a licensing authority should be cast upon the London County Council. It is very rare indeed that the London County Council passes a resolution unanimously. There are only two Parties in the County Council now, arid they agreed to pass this resolution. My purpose in rising to-night is to say that the City of Westminster also passed a similar resolution—not from any desire to run counter to the County Council—that the County Council of London should not be the licensing authority. The reason for that is very obvious. The police district does not coincide with the administrative

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county of London. In the Bill there seems to be some little hitch. Probably I am wrong, perhaps I have not understood the Bill as a trained lawyer might, but as I understand it, if a local authority belongs to the London County Council that local authority is debarred from being heard. London has always had separate legislation.
I am not going to discuss the merits of the question whether other county councils should have this power or not. I am not so sure that they should, because to my mind it is somewhat alien to the duties of a local authority. For many reasons I think that county councils should not have the power of granting licences. I may be told that one of the duties of the London County Council is to license racecourses. I do not think that power has been exercised in recent years. On the other hand, it may be asked: Where in London, especially in the centre of London, are you going to have a dog track? You might have someone, especially some member of the House of Commons moving that all the railings be removed from Hyde Park, and you might have a dog track there. Before such a thing as that came to pass what a discussion there would be!I do not wish to stand any longer between the House and the noble Earl who is to reply for the Government. I hope some central board will be set up for the whole of the country, or at all events some special measure will be devised for the purpose of licensing in the districts of the County of London, and also the districts adjacent to the County of London. I had some remarks to make on other portions of the Bill, but I will refrain from making them now. I wish to urge, however, that local authorities should not be burdened with the duty of licensing.
LORD LUKE: My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Marquess in charge of this Bill for his statement on hospital finance. In brief, he said that if lotteries on a large scale were to be held in aid of these charities they would dry up the present sources of voluntary effort. At the same time, this Bill has very wisely permitted competitions which contain an element of skill, including football pools. No doubt these football pools are to be permitted because entrants must have some knowledge of football form and must
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take thought before putting down the club names, and though the result may be much more a matter of chance than skill, the competitor thinks his skill predominates, and in a moral matter of this kind the thoughts of the entrant are important. There will be many other competitions that are on the border line so far as skill is concerned, and I am sure there can be no desire to run the risk of having to prosecute, especially in the case of charitable bodies who have no money to waste. Therefore questions of sufficiency as regards skill should be settled before the competition starts, and I propose in Committee to move an Amendment that will supply a method of effecting this.
With regard to competitions for charities, with an entrance fee of a shilling or so, it is not only that large sums have been found for hospitals and other charities in this way, but it gives an opportunity of advertising the charity through the post and the Press to a very wide circle many of whom may not have realised that the hospitals require money. Nowadays when the fifty-guinea contributors are less able to give, it has become all the more important that the money should come in from those who can only spare shillings. In one of the British Charities' competitions the entrant had to pick out the best twelve of twenty-four "Help the hospitals" slogans, and over two million entered. Thus in, say, a million homes the hospitals slogans were studied by possible entrants. That amount of educational publicity for hospitals could not be got in any other way without very great expense.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, the noble Marquess who moved the Second Reading of this Bill said that it would provide an opportunity in your Lordships' House "of listening to the dispassionate opinions of those who have had the opportunity of studying the effects which opportunities for speculation in different forms have on the wellbeing of the community at large." I believe that your Lordships will agree with me when I say that the quality of the many excellent speeches that have been made in the debate that has taken place on Thursday last and to-day has proved the correctness of the prophecy made by the noble Marquess. I should

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like to take the opportunity—if the noble Lord, Lord Elton, will not consider that in my present position I presume—of congratulating him on a very powerful speech, and of expressing the hope on behalf of your Lordships that we shall have the opportunity of hearing the noble Lord, who I am sorry to see is not now in his place, on many other occasions.
At this late hour it will be somewhat difficult for me, in replying on behalf of the Government, to cover all the points that have been raised by various speakers. I should like in the first place to endeavour to dispel certain misrepresentations that have been made in regard to this Bill by some who have referred to it as class legislation. The noble Viscount who moved the rejection of the Bill said:
"…the Bill is regarded as class legislation,…because it interferes with the poor man's amusement and does not affect the rich man."
I would like to point out that there are only 700 days provided upon which the public can enjoy horse racing. Under this Bill there will still be allowed 20,000 days racing on greyhound racing tracks. That in itself, if I may say so with due respect, points to the fact that although the provisions of this Bill tend to limit the days per calendar year upon which greyhound racing with betting facilities can take place, there will still be a very large margin in favour of the man who is confined to a restricted area owing to his income. I would further like to point out that even if the argument were correct—which I hold with Lord Hamilton of Dalzell is not the case—that horse racing is confined to the rich man, the amusement that can be provided for the poor man, as he has been described in this debate, is not in any way prohibited by this Bill: it is merely restricted.
I would also like to refer to the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, who most clearly emphasised that this Bill is aimed at preventing collective action by persons who endeavour to exploit the gambling tendency of the public by organised gambling facilities. He said that the harm which has been done in the last four or five years is not to the type of person that a certain section of your Lordships would wish to see have no control placed upon their liberty to do as they would wish in sporting activities, but it is to that weaker element of the population who,
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because of the collective action that is provided by these increased gambling facilities, go, perhaps without the knowledge of their elders or their parents, to participate in greyhound racing, with results, as your Lordships have heard in this debate particularly from the right reverend Prelates, which in industrial towns have been most detrimental not only to a particular district but to the community at large. Therefore, on that ground the Government's proposals can, I think, be defended to a very conclusive degree.
I would point out, as the noble Marquess said in introducing the Bill, that the exploitation of the gambling propensity of the population through the introduction of greyhound racing has created a situation that no Government can ignore. The speech delivered by the noble Lord opposite, Lord Sanderson, if the views expressed by him are representative of those of the Party to which he belongs, has shown that that Party would, if they had the opportunity, take more restrictive measures in limiting the existing facilities which are offered. Much comment has been made both by the noble Viscount who moved the rejection of this Bill and by other noble Lords, to the effect that the Bill is piecemeal, and that it does not sufficiently cover the whole scope of the Betting Acts, which are agreed by most people to be anomalous. But I would point out to the noble Viscount that a comprehensive Bill dealing with all the matters covered by the Report of the Royal Commission would have included, in addition to the present contents of the Bill, provisions relating to betting off the course, to betting inducements, and to gaming.
As regards betting off the course, the main problem is that of street betting. The Royal Commission took the view that the only way to tackle this problem was to provide some alternative facility, and they unanimously recommended that cash postal betting should be legalised as an alternative facility, and that as a corollary bookmakers should be registered. As regards betting inducements, the main proposals of the Royal Commission were that drastic restrictions should be imposed on bookmakers' advertisements and that the activities of the professional tipster should be prohibited. As regards gaming, they said

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that there was no urgent need for amendment of the law, but that in all these three sections clarification and consolidation were necessary when the Government had greater time to deal with a Bill of a more comprehensive character. I would welcome, and I feel confident that His Majesty's Government would be pleased at, an opportunity to make the Bill more comprehensive, but I would point out to a certain section of your Lordships who have addressed the House that such a Bill, being more comprehensive, would have led to greater conflict, and that it is in accordance with the traditions of this House and of Parliament that such matters should be taken by degrees.
The noble Lord, Lord Bayford, and several other noble Lords have raised a point with regard to Part TT of the Bill, which is confined to the question of lotteries. The noble Lords, Lord Bayford and Lord Hutchison of Montrose, criticised Clause 22, subsection (2) (g), saying that under that paragraph it would be necessary, in the event of a club, such as the club which the noble Lord quoted, instituting sweepstakes, for the promoters first to obtain sanction from the Police, and to have police supervision. The object of the proposal is to prevent the growth of undesirable clubs formed especially for the purpose of promoting large lotteries under the guise of exempted private lotteries. No permission from the police to run a lottery would be required by such a club as the noble Lord, Lord Bayford, ha instanced. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government will give the most careful consideration to the views put forward on behalf of the clubs which he has in mind.
Severe criticism has been directed to the point that the line of demarcation which His Majesty's Government have drawn between lotteries which will be legal and lotteries which will not, under the proposals of this Bill, be accepted, is based neither on a moral nor an ethical line, but is confined really to a limitation of the size of a lottery and the point whether it is of the magnitude which the noble Lord, Lord Elton, quoted, or the common form lottery of the bazaar. It was necessary in framing this Bill on the one hand to take into consideration the restrictions necessary to prevent large lotteries being formed
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under the guise of such small organisations as are at present tolerated by the administrative action of the police—on the one hand to prevent abuse of the restrictions which are to be imposed—and on the other hand to prevent pettifogging restrictions being made which would raise difficulties in lottery sweepstakes of the type to which I understand your Lordships' House takes no exception.
It has been suggested by my noble friend the Duke of Sutherland, by the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, and by the noble Lord, Lord Hutchison of Montrose, that provision should be made to legalise large lotteries. As the noble Marquess behind me has already said, the Government
"are in agreement with the conclusion of the Royal Commission, that large-scale lotteries, whether promoted by the State for the direct benefit of the Exchequer or by a Statutory Board for charitable objects, or by individual charities under a system of permits, are socially undesirable. History shows that State lotteries take their place among the expedients which are resorted to by Governments when other and more reputable methods of finance have failed."
We have only to turn to the Act of 1823 and to the former history of this topic to appreciate that lotteries organised by the State have not fulfilled the end for which they were originally instituted, that after a number of years the size, extent, and scope of those lotteries has decreased, and that if an attempt were made to raise funds by lottery either under the auspices of the State or under charitable boards for certain charities such as hospitals, it would he found that that system would not raise a sufficient sum to take the place of the voluntary contributions which the hospitals are now enjoying from individuals.
I think it stands to reason, and indeed many of your Lordships would know better than myself, that the State having inaugurated or tolerated the inception of lotteries for the purpose of raising money for hospitals, there would not be the same response from private persons, or the same individual interest taken by private persons in the maintenance and upkeep of certain hospitals in which they themselves are particularly interested. Therefore on that ground, and on the ground of past experience, I hold that the Government have taken a wise

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decision in emphatically stating there should be no future State lottery. I hope that with this explanation I have sufficiently answered the point raised last Thursday by the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, who asked that provision should he incorporated in the Bill which would allow at some future date a licence to be given for a State lottery to be inaugurated.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester has to-day given a most powerful speech in support of the Bill, but he, on his part, has said that his only sorrow is that street betting is not included in the provisions of the Bill. I have endeavoured shortly to state the reasons why it is impossible within the scope of this Bill, which deals with betting on the course and only on the course, to consider that matter further.
Several times during this debate reference has been made to the matter of a licensing authority. On the one hand it has been strongly advocated that the licensing authority be taken out of the hands of the county council or county borough council, and placed in the hands of the standing joint committee. If it were placed in the hands of the standing joist committee there are two important points to consider, which I think will prove to your Lordships the undesirability of reverting to that practice. In the first place the standing joint committee is composed, as to 50 per cent., of Justices of the Peace, and that committee has no staff wherewith it can recognise the conditions that are provided for in Clause 6. In Clause 6, subsection (1), paragraphs (a), (i) and (ii), it states that the local authority may refuse a licence if it is satisfied that the existence or user of the track would injuriously affect the health or the comfort of persons residing in the neighbourhood of that track, or would seriously impair the amenities of that neighbourhood. I would ask whether the standing joint committee is constituted to make such a decision as to whether the existence or user of a track will affect the amenities of a particular district or the health and comfort of the people in that neighbourhood. Surely it is the functions of the local authority to decide upon such matters. They in former Statutes have the precedent of deciding what is, and what is not, in the nature
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of an amenity of the district in which they reside, and therefore I do not think, for those two reasons, that the standing committee is the right authority to deal with these matters.
Another suggestion was put forward, that the Court of Quarter Sessions should make this decision. It has been said that the Court of Quarter Sessions has already a precedent for granting licences on race horse tracks. I think, my Lords, that that is not entirely applicable to the whole country, for I understand that that granting of licences only applies to the London area, and to courses within a certain radius of London City.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: Have the borough councils—have the local authority—a right to refuse to allow anyone to start a dog racing track?
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I think the right reverend Prelate is really referring to county borough councils, although he said borough councils, which are not the licensing authority. The county council and the county borough council are the licensing authorities, and they have the right to refuse a licence under any of the conditions contained in Clause 6. I think it was Lord Amulree who strongly put forward the opinion that if neither the standing joint committee nor the Court of Quarter Sessions be adopted in place of the licensing authority in the Bill, it would be better—an opinion shared by certain other noble Lords—to bring a statutory board into existence. It has been said that there is a precedent for a statutory board in the Racecourse Betting Control Board, but that is only in respect of the totalisator operating on licensed racecourses, and I think it has been suggested by Lord Askwith, and by several of your Lordships who have addressed this House, that such a statutory board should control not only the totalisator but also the greyhound racing tracks, and generally the supervision of the sport, as it is named.
I think that would be contrary to any scheme that has been put forward on previous occasions, and as Lord Hamilton of Dalzell said, it took one hundred years for the Jockey Club to receive complete control of horse racing. Is it possible for us to say that greyhound racing has been going on sufficiently long, and that it is

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of the same national interest and importance as horse racing, and should have a statutory board to supervise completely its control, where such a board has not existed for horse racing? On behalf of the Government I can say in the most decisive terms that such a board would be contrary to the findings of investigations that the Government have made, and that for that and for many reasons, which I think will spring to the mind if the noble Marquess's speech is very carefully studied, a statutory board will be unacceptable both to the local interests, to the many different interests which exist in the greyhound racing community, and to the public generally.
The number of days allotted to greyhound racing, 104, has been very severely remarked upon. It has been suggested that the number should be increased to 208. I should like to point out that there has been some element of confusion. inasmuch as the provision of 104 days does not include any number of meetings that may held, and that it would be impossible to think of allowing greyhound racing organisations to have a greater number of days, because if the number were increased to four, or even to six or seven days a week, which is the number now in some cases, it would mean that the object of a Bill of which your Lordships approve in principle would be defeated. If the recommendation be accepted that the local authority do not make the same days operative in a given area, then, as Lord Sanderson pointed out, on Thursday last, it would be possible for residents to go from Leeds to Bradford or from Bradford to Leeds and obtain six or seven days' racing, which is considered to be undesirable for that element of the population to which the right reverend Prelate has referred.
I am afraid it has been impossible to answer all the points that have been raised, but I can assure your Lordships that such points as are more suitable to be dealt with at a later stage will have the full consideration of the Department which I have the honour to represent. You are asked this evening to approve of the principle that that weaker element of the population that now has facilities for indulging in the gambling instinct almost thrust upon it, should to some extent be safeguarded by the action of the State. In no sense does His Majesty's Government take the view that we should
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adjudicate upon the ethics or the gambling habits of the community at large; but we do say that when the industry of sport has been allowed to grow up to what it is to-day, then it is time that action should be taken.
VISCOUNT BERTIE or THAME: My Lords, notwithstanding my noble friend's contention that this is not class legislation, I still regard it as such to some extent, because my noble friend seems to forget that the rich man can travel, and the poor man cannot. When this distinction is realised up and down the country the electorate will think it is class legislation. It is true that there are now greatly-increased facilities for betting, but it is now rather late in the day to stop that it is rather like locking the stable door when the horse has been stolen. It is true also that increased facilities for betting and gambling cause misery, but, in the world as it is to-day, the minority has generally to suffer for the sake of the majority. Once the voters have tasted blood they will vote against any Government which tries to restrict their liberty, and, if I may say so without offence to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, I think that if the National Government were defeated and the Socialists returned the misery would be much more general than it is now. I sympathise with the noble Earl in having shirked the introduction of a general Bill to deal with betting and gambling, because I know that he will have controversy enough over this Bill, but I do hope that, unless this Bill is very drastically altered in Committee, your Lordships will reject it on Third Reading. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Amendment to the Second Reading Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Bill read 2a.

PROTECTION OF ANIMALS BILL.
Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Thursday next.

ILLEGAL TRAWLING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Penalties for illegal trawling]:
THE UNDER-SECRETARY or STATE Fox WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL): On the Second Reading of this Bill the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition suggested that the penalties on the owner of a trawler for a third offence under Clause 1 (3) should be increased by providing that the owner should be liable to imprisonment, and not merely to a fine. At the time I gave the noble Lord the answer which I thought was adequate for the occasion, but I promised that the matter should be further considered; and, in accordance with that promise, further consideration has been given to the point, with the result that the Government do not feel able to agree that such a modification of the Bill is desirable. The owner is liable on a third conviction to a fine of£500, in addition to forfeiture of gear, and the Government consider that this will be a sufficient deterrent.
There are, however, two other considerations which are worth bearing in mind. It should be remembered that the owner's offence under Clause 1 (3) is an imputed crime, and in a given case the owner might be only legally, and not morally, responsible for one or more of the previous infringements, because he may have done what he could to prevent the skipper from illegal trawling. Also, the infliction of imprisonment might work out unequally as between, on the one hand, individual owners, and, on the other hand, companies, in regard to which the application of the penalty of imprisonment would obviously present difficulties. In these circumstances the Government do not feel able to accept the noble Lord's suggestion, and I very much hope therefore that he will, as he promised, not press it.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I only desire to thank the noble Lord for his courtesy in considering my point so fully and treating it just as if I had put an Amendment on the Paper. I did not
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put an Amendment on the Paper because the noble Lord was good enough to intimate to me the reasons why the Government could not accept it, but I thank him very much for his explanation.
Clause I agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to. Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMA TION (BURNHAM AND DISTRICT WATER) BILL. [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Burnham, Dorney and Hitcham Waterworks Company, Limited, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That she Bill be now read 1a.— (viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (HERRIARD AND DISTRICT WATER) BILL [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating; to the Herriard and Lasham Water Company, Limited, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill he now read 1a.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (SHEPPEY WATER) BILL [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Sheppey Water and Lighting Company, Limited, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.— (viscount Cage.)
On Question. Bill read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WEY VALLEY WATER) BILL [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Wey Valley Water Company, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (STEYNING AND DISTRICT WATER) BILL [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Steyning and District Waterworks Company, Limited, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Manchester Corporation (General Powers).
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

  RIGHTS TO WORK MINERALS.
  RIGHTS TO WORK MINERALS.