Sitting of 19 June 1934

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with).
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Wantage Urban District Council Bill [Lords].
Sheffield Gas Bill [Lords].
Tyne Improvement Bill [Lords].
Durham County Water Board Bill [Lords].
Middlesex County Council Bill [Lords].
• Bills to be read a Second time.
Provisional Order Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with).
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, brought from the Lords and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order. Confirmation (Steyning and District Water) Bill [Lords].
Bill to be read a Second time Tomorrow.
Provisional Order Bills [Lords] (No Standing Orders applicable),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, brought from the Lords and referred on the First Read-
172
ing thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Milford Haven) Bill [Lords].
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Morley) Bill [Lords].
Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.
West Gloucestershire Water Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
London Passenger Transport Board Bill (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow, at half-past Seven of the clock.
Taunton Corporation Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow, at half-past Seven of the clock.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    SCOTTISH EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (ECONOMIES).
    Mrs. SHAWasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, along with the reduction of education grants to local authorities, he has effected any economy in the central administration of the Scottish Education Department since the financial crisis of 1931; and, if so, to what extent?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): As a result of measures taken since 1931, the staff of the Scottish Education Department has been reduced by one staff officer, two executive officers, six clerical officers and one temporary clerk. The annual saving from this reduction of staff is estimated at £2,700. Other economies in office administration, inspection, travelling, the expenses of the Royal Scottish Museum, etc., bring the total annual saving up to approximately £9,350 on a vote of £146,523—about 6.4 per cent.
    Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: Can the hon. Gentleman say if there has been any loss of efficiency from the financial economies which he has effected?
    Mr. SKELTON: No, Sir, I have not detected any.

    WAR SERVICE.
    Mr. SALTasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the approximate percentage of the male members of His Majesty's Civil Service who were of military age in 1914 to 1918 (17¼ to 51 years) who served in His Majesty's Forces during the War and are still serving in His Majesty's Civil Service?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hore-Belisha): It is estimated that of the total male non industrial staff of the regular Civil Service on 1st August, 1914, excluding men over military age and men unfit for military service, about 77 per cent. were released to His Majesty's Forces. I regret that the further information asked for is not available.

  SCOTLAND.

    SHERIFFS-SUBSTITUTE (REMUNERATION).
    Sir MURDOCH McKENZIE WOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the disparity between the remuneration paid to sheriffs-substitute in Scotland and that paid to judicial officers of the same status in England; whether he is aware of the widespread anxiety in Scotland lest the efficiency of sheriff courts should suffer through members of the bar of the necessary professional attainments being unprepared to accept appointment as sheriffs-substitute on the present terms; and whether he proposes to take any steps to deal with the matter?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir Godfrey Collins): The comparison drawn between the remuneration of sheriffs-substitute and of judicial officers in England is necessarily subject to qualifications; but in considering the remuneration of the sheriffs-substitute the necessity for maintaining the efficiency of the sheriff court will of course be borne in mind. The matter is now under my consideration.

    RATING RELIEF.
    Mr. N. MACLEAN(for Mr. KIRK-WOOD) asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of industrial firms and companies in Scotland which have been derated under the 1929 Derating Act; and what is the annual amount they receive in derating and the total rebate since 1929?
    Mr. SKELTON: I have no information as to the number of industrial firms and companies which have been derated under the derating provisions of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929, but the total annual rate-reduction due to those provisions is, on the basis of the standard year (1928–29), approximately £3,340,000. Of this amount it is estimated that about half, or £1,670,000, represents the benefit applicable to industrial subjects. Figures for later years are not available, but I have no reason to suppose that the amount of relief has varied substantially. Accordingly, the total relief for the four years since 16th May, 1930, may be taken as roughly £6,500,000.

    ARREARS OF RATE, BURNTISLAND (WAGE DEDUCTIONS).
    Mr. N. MACLEAN(for Mr. DAVID WILLIAMS) asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the town council of Burntisland has arrested for arrears of rates the wages of five workers on the first payment of wages they received after a long spell of unemployment, and that one man had £3 15s. 6d. deducted from his wage of £5 1s. 6d., another £3 14s. 6d. from £4 18s. 6d., a third £2 10s. from £3 10s., and the other two had the whole of their wages of £2 3s. 4d. and £2 0s. 4d. arrested, and, further, that this council intends in future to arrest 20 per cent. of wages of £2 10s. and 30 per cent. of wages over £2 10s.; and what action he will take to prevent any further treatment of this nature?
    Mr. SKELTON: I am informed that the facts are substantially as stated in the first part of the question. As regards the second part my right hon. Friend has no powers which would enable him to interfere with the exercise by the local authority or any other creditor of their rights to enforce by process of law payment of debts due to them.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is it not the case that whore powers of arrestment have been

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    granted to anyone in Scotland by a court in Scotland there must be a certain amount left, in order to provide the individual whose wages are being arrested with sufficient to purchase food and clothing during the particular week?
    Mr. SKELTON: I could not answer that legal question without notice, but I think I might say now that even so I do not think that would give the Secretary of State any powers.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is it not the case that the entire wages of the two individuals in this instance were arrested, leaving absolutely nothing for them to purchase-food for their families?
    Mr. SKELTON: I can only repeat that I could not answer that legal question without notice.
    Mr. THORNE: Are there any courts m Scotland similar to those in England, namely, county courts, where people have to go in matters of this kind?
    Mr. SKELTON: Again, I say that I cannot answer any legal question without notice.
    Mr. MACLEAN—
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman has already answered that he cannot reply to the question without notice.

    GAS AND PIG IRON PRODUCTION, LANARKSHIRE.
    Mr. N. MACLEAN(for Mr. KIRK-WOOD) asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the proposal of Lanarkshire firms to construct coke-oven plants at blast furnaces on condition that they can obtain a market for gas as a by-product; and will he arrange a conference between the firms concerned and Lanarkshire company gas undertakings for the purpose of securing an agreement which would co-ordinate the production of pig iron and gas in that area?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): I am aware of the proposal to which the hon. Member refers. I understand also that an offer has been made to sell the surplus gas, amounting to 10 million cubic feet a day, to the Glasgow Corporation, but that the corporation has not seen its way to accept this offer. Apart from the
    176
    corporation, the Lanarkshire gas companies, even if they were to purchase their entire requirements, could only take altogether a little more than one million cubic feet per day from the coke-oven owners. In these circumstances, it does not appear that the conference suggested by my hon. Friend would serve any useful purpose.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    OVERTIME (INQUIRY).
    Mr. GORDON MACDONALDasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the investigation into the working of overtime in the mining industry in Lancashire and Cheshire; and whether he intends a similar investigation in other districts?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Ernest Brown): I have received the report of this inquiry, and I have decided to publish it. I hope that it will be in the hands of Members in the course of a few days. With regard to the second part of the question, I propose to consult the Mineworkers' Federation, and the other interests concerned in the matter after the publication of the report.
    Mr. MACDONALD: Will the Secretary for Mines continue to use all the pressure he can to get this question of overtime settled?
    Mr. BROWN: As the hon. Member knows, I have done a good deal about it.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether further inquiries are likely to be made in Yorkshire?
    Mr. BROWN: That will depend upon the conversations I may have.

    GAS DETECTORS.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines if he is in a position to make a statement with regard to the suggested regulation for the compulsory use of gas detectors underground?
    Mr. E. BROWN: It is an essential condition of effective action in this matter that the workmen individually and through their organisations shall cooperate willingly and actively to give effect to any regulations that may be made. Otherwise, the regulations would

    177
    be ineffective. The reasons why this is s0 were fully stated in the unanimous report made some years ago by a representative committee—the Miners' Lamps Committee—and they are reasons which hold good to-day. In these circumstances, it is of the first importance that I should if possible find a basis of action by agreement with the workers' representatives, and I propose to invite them to a further discussion of the objections they now feel to the proposals put forward by me.
    Mr. SMITH: Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication when he is likely to complete the investigation?
    Mr. BROWN: Not without notice.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether, when the federation came away from his Department on the last occasion, it was intimated to them that the hon. Gentleman had already made up his mind, and will he tell us what purpose can be served if, before the arrival of the deputation, he had made up his mind?
    Mr. BROWN: I could not accept that statement at all.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is the hon. Gentle man aware that that was the statement which was made to the Miners' Federation Executive?
    Mr. BROWN: If the hon. Member will read the answer he will see that it shows that that was not the case.

    UPTON COLLIERY (MINER'S DEATH).
    Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHSasked the Secretary for Mines what has been done in regard to the death of Horace Turner and the breaches of the Coal Mines Act?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I have now examined the evidence and reports relating to the death of Horace Turner at Upton Colliery on 22nd May. There appears to have been some neglect of statutory duty on the part of certain officials of the mine, and so far as evidence is available, legal proceedings will be taken under the Coal Mines Act.

    WAGES, YORKSHIRE.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary for Mines the average day wage paid to Yorkshire mine-workers for the year
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    1933 and the average number of days worked per week?
    Mr. E. BROWN: The average cash earnings per manshift worked by all workers employed above and below ground at coal mines in Yorkshire during the year 1933 was 10s. 1.80d., and the average number of shifts worked per week was 4.12.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Has the hon. Gentle man any idea whether there is any likelihood of an improvement in the number of days on which the Yorkshire miners can work?
    Mr. BROWN: I would point out that in 1932 the average number of shifts worked per week was 4.05, so that there is an improvement in that it is now 4.12.

    FLOODING (LANARKSHIRE).
    Mrs. SHAWasked the Secretary for Mines if he has any information regarding the closing, due to flooding, of Bredisholm Colliery, Uddingston; and what steps he proposes to take to deal with the spread of flooding in the mines of Lanarkshire?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I am informed that as the result of the closing of mines to the west of Bredisholm Colliery, the water formerly pumped at those mines was expected to come through to the lower seams at Bredisholm. The owners decided that they were not in a position to incur the additional expense of pumping this water, and accordingly in 1933 they abandoned the lower seams and continued to work the Glasgow Upper Seam only. This working is now being discontinued, but I understand that its abandonment is not due in any way to the water problem, but to other economic considerations. With regard to the second part of the question, I am afraid that this problem is too complicated to deal with by way of question and answer, but I shall be very pleased to discuss it fully with the hon. Member if she desires.
    Mr. N. MACLEAN: Is not the hon. Member aware that the question of flooding in the mines surrounding this particular area and Glasgow has been a vexed question for a considerable period, and is he in a position to hold an inquiry into the matter to see whether joint action can be taken by the mine owners to remove the stumbling blocks?
    Mr. BROWN: There are a good many stumbling blocks in the matter.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Many serious ones?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    DOMINIONS TARIFF BOARDS (APPLICATIONS).
    Mr. HEPWORTHasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether his attention has been called to the fact that not a single application made to a Dominions tariff board by British exporters has yet been the subject of a decision; and whether he will make representations to the Dominions concerned as to the desirability of expediting matters?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): My hon. Friend must, I think, be under a misapprehension. In Australia and in Canada the respective tariff boards have submitted a number of reports, which have resulted in the main in the reduction of the tariff rates on United Kingdom goods. In New Zealand, the only other Dominion concerned, the Royal Commission which has been conducting a comprehensive review of the New Zealand tariff will, it is understood, present its report shortly.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great dissatisfaction in the wool textile industry in Yorkshire regarding the results of the particular application made on behalf of that industry, and are the Government prepared to bring pressure upon the Canadian Government to implement the Ottawa Agreements?
    Mr. MABANEasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (1) whether he intends to publish as a White Paper the Interim Report of the Canadian Tariff Board on the application of the wool textile industry for the grant of a preference to this country in the tariffs on wool textiles imported into Canada;
    (2) whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction in all sections of the wool textile industry at the manner in which the application to the Canadian tariff board was treated; and, in view of the discontent created by the failure of the board to grant any preference, what steps he
    180
    proposes to ensure that home industries are not in future put to useless expense in making similar applications?
    Mr. THOMAS: I am causing a copy of the interim report of the Canadian tariff board on wool textiles to be placed in the Library of the House. No representations have reached me on this matter. I understand that certain other applications to the Canadian tariff board are at present under consideration by the board, and there would appear to be no ground for action on my part such as is suggested in my hon. Friend's question.
    Mr. MABANE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the serious dissatisfaction in the West Riding of Yorkshire with the manner in which this application has been treated and the feeling that West Riding industries have been put to very considerable expense to no purpose?
    Mr. THOMAS: I hope that West Riding people will be more satisfied when they get the full report. The only report now is an interim report.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: Is not the interim report quite definite that the West Riding is to receive nothing from the Ottawa Agreements, and is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to tell the House that he will put pressure upon Canada to implement the Ottawa Agreements?
    Mr. THOMAS: No one knows better than the hon. Gentleman that the time to make any comment is when there is a full report. I would be accused of being hasty if I acted on the interim report.
    Mr. MABANE: Is it correct to say that, before the final report is submitted, the representatives of the West Riding-will be required again to send delegates to Canada? If the right hon. Gentleman could make that point clear, I think it would help very much.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to tell the House that a decision, after nine months' negotiation, could be termed a hasty decision?

    AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND (FOREIGN SHIPPING).
    Mr. LESLIE BOYCEasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what communications have been received from the Governments of Australia or

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    New Zealand regarding the unfair competition of foreign subsidised shipping in their waters; and what, if any, replies have been sent?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: Communications have taken place and are taking place with His Majesty's Governments in the Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand, but I am not at present in a position to make any statement on the subject.
    Mr. BOYCE: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the question of policy involved is entirely a matter within the discretion of the Australian and the New Zealand Governments?
    Mr. THOMAS: I have already said that communications are taking place between both Governments.
    Mr. BOYCE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he is likely to be in a position to make a statement if I put down a further question on the subject?
    Mr. THOMAS: No, but I will undertake to let my hon. Friend know.
    Mr. BOYCE: Thank you.
    Mr. BOYCEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any information as to the level of Wages paid by the American subsidised Matson Line running in competition with British interests in Australia and New Zealand shipping between America and New Zealand and Australia; and whether such wages are higher or lower than those paid by Australian nd New Zealand shipowners?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Such information as is in my possession at present suggests that the wages paid by the Matson Line are lower than those paid by Australian and New Zealand shipowners.

    DANISH BACON (PRICES).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade the price of Danish bacon per cwt. for the month of June in each of the last three years?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: According to information collected by the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, the average price (wholesaler to retailer) in London of first quality Danish green bacon was 60s. 6d. per cwt. in June, 1931, 66s. in
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    June, 1932, and 77s. 6d. in June, 1933. The price of Danish smoked bacon was 8s. higher than green bacon in June, 1931, and 10s. higher in June, 1932 and 1933.
    Lieut.-Commander AGNEW: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the price paid to British farmers for bacon pigs shows a corresponding rise?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The question refers only to Danish bacon.

    NATIONAL SHIPBUILDERS' SECURITY, LIMITED.
    Mr. PEARSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the anxiety which is felt regarding the activities of National Shipbuilders' Security, Limited, in buying up and dismantling shipyards, and in disposing of the sites under restrictions against further use for shipbuilding; and whether he is satisfied that the operations of the company are not prejudicial to the interests of the community?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am aware of the anxiety to which my hon. Friend refers, and I have otained from the company some explanations and assurances on the subject. The company have informed me that, so far as is consistent with their objects of assisting the industry by eliminating redundant and obsolete shipyards, their policy is to buy up berths for dismantling as evenly as possible between the shipbuilding districts of the country and as between all classes of work. The existing shipbuilding capacity is still far in excess of any likely requirements, and at no time during the last 10 years have more than half the berths available been occupied with work. Last year work was proceeding on only 5 per cent. of the building berths and at the present time, when the position of the industry has somewhat improved, the percentage is still only 27. The company have also assured me that they make every effort, in conjunction with local interest, to dispose of disused sites for employment by other industries and that they have succeeded in doing so in several instances. Moreover the policy of the company does not involve the withholding of consent to the further use for shipbuilding of land sold under restrictive covenant where it can be reasonably shown that the interests of the

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    nation or of the industry make it desirable to re-establish a shipyard; and if the company were satisfied that in fresh circumstances any site could be profitably re-employed, they would not stand in the way. Such restrictive conditions as have been imposed would, the company state, never be utilised to jeopardise output in any time of national emergency.
    Mr. MAXTON: Is it possible for us to get a full report as to the operations of this company?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I will consider that matter. I have given all the information that I possess.
    Mr. LAWSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the activities of this company in the long run make it certain that some shipyards will never be used again, in spite of the statement which they make?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am afraid that that is not the only reason which would account for the fact that some shipyards will not be used again.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: Is it not the case that the operations of this company are based on the assumption that the tariff policy of the Government is not in the interests of shipbuilding?
    Mr. MAXTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether this company, which I understand exists for the destruction of capital, makes a dividend?
    Mr. DICKIE: May I ask whether this company is to be allowed to pursue its activities without any regard to the social consequences?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: If the hon. Member will study the answer, which I am afraid I read with great rapidity, he will probably see that therein lies the answer to his question.

    AUGLO-FRENCH AGREEMENT.
    Mr. GEORGE HALLasked the President of the Board of Trade the present position in the negotiations for a trade agreement with France?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: A trade agreement between the two countries was initialled on Saturday, the 16th. It is expected that this will be signed very shortly, and that the arrangements embodied in it
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    will then be brought provisionally into force pending ratification. I am not in a position to give detailed information in regard to the agreement pending its signature, but I may say that it will result, amongst other things, in the restoration to this country of her full share of the French import quotas, and in the withdrawal of the 20 per cent. Surtax on certain French goods imposed in this country by the Order of the 9th February last. Discussions are also being set on foot for the conclusion of a further agreement regarding the treatment of persons and companies and other miscellaneous questions.
    Lieut. - Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that in making this agreement the Interests of agriculturists have not once more been given away?
    Captain STRICKLAND: Can the right hon. Gentleman make any statement with regard to the artificial silk position in this Trade Agreement?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, Sir. I cannot make any further statement than the one I have read to the House.
    Mr. HANNON: Will the agreement be published as soon as it is signed?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, immediately it is signed. The hon. and gallant Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte) is not justified in saying that we have given away any national interest. We have guarded them all.

    TRADE BALANCES.
    Mr. MABANEasked the President of the Board of Trade the countries with which this country had a favourable visible trade balance in the year last ended?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 22nd February to a question by the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis).

    FEDERATION OF BRITISH INDUSTRIES (MEMORANDUM).
    Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade if he has considered the memorandum from the Federation of British Industries relating to the compulsory marking of foreign imported goods, and urging that the pro-

    185
    tection of British industry can best be achieved by tariffs and quotas; and if he will make a statement on the policy of His Majesty's Government in relation to submissions embodied in this statement?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The memorandum referred to by my hon. Friend was sent in response to a request from the Board of Trade for the federation's views on a proposal that the Merchandise Marks Act, 1826, should be amended in such a way as to require all imported goods to bear an indication of origin. The federation is opposed to the compulsory marking of all imported goods. They say that there is clearly a considerable difference of opinion on the subject, and they express the view that any attempt

    The following table shows the total number and declared value of motor oars and chassis imported into and exported from the United Kingdom in the trade with the United States during the year 1933.

    Description.

    Total imports consigned from the United States.

    Domestic exports consigned to the United States.

    Quantity.

    Declared Value.

    Quantity.

    Declared Value.

    Motor cars, etc:

    Number.

    £

    Number.

    £

    Private cars (including cabs)

    1,373

    202,406

    26

    8,029

    Commercial vehicles (including motor omnibuses, motor Are engines and motor ambulances, but not including tractors).

    17

    1,666

    —

    —

    Chassis for motor cars, etc:

    With engines

    683

    82,049

    39

    40,059

    Without engines

    60

    3,300

    —

    —

    Mr. HALESasked the President of the Board of Trade if the recent reduction in duty on British motor vehicles imported into the United States has been made in consideration of similar concessions in duty on American motor vehicles or other commodities imported into Great Britain?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, Sir. The duties hitherto imposed in the United States on motor vehicles and certain other articles have varied according to the duties levied by other countries on similar goods of United States origin. I understand that the United States Government now take the view that such forms of discrimination are inconsistent with the most-favoured-nation provisions of their Treaties and have accordingly decided to
    to impose marking orders on industries would be widely resented. The memorandum, which I have only just received, is at present under consideration.

    MOTOR VEHICLES (IMPORTS AND EXPORTS).
    Mr. HALESasked the President of the Board of Trade how many motor vehicles were imported into Great Britain from the United States during the year 1933; how many British motor vehicles were exported to the United States during the same period; and what was their value?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: As the answer involves a tabular statement, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPOT.
    Following is the statement:
    apply uniform rates in future to all imports of such goods.
    Mr. HALES: Are we to understand that this spontaneous gesture of good will is without any corresponding advantage to the United States on goods we import from them, and is not this entirely in opposition to their usual fiscal policy?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I would rather not express any opinion on the fiscal policy of the United States.

    VICTORIA CENTENARY (TRADE EXHIBITION TRAIN).
    Mr. HEPWORTHasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether his attention has been called to the proposed British trade exhibition

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    train to tour Victoria during the centenary celebrations; and what steps are being taken to secure adequate representation of British staple industries on this train?
    Lieut.-Colonel J. COLVILLE (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Department of Overseas Trade is co-operating with the London office of the Australian Association of British Manufacturers with a view to bringing this project to the attention of United Kingdom manufacturers, and His Majesty's Trade Commissioner at Melbourne, who is now on an official tour in this country, is also drawing the attention of manufacturers to the possibilities presented by the exhibition train whenever a suitable opportunity occurs.
    Mr. HANNON: Will any financial assistance be given by the Government to this admirable project?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: That question has not yet been raised.

    RUSSIA.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the value of orders placed in this country by the Soviet Government during the first four months of this year, and comparable figures for 1933?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: For the reasons stated in my previous reply I have no official information. My attention has, however, been drawn to a statement in the May number of the "Monthly Review" issued by the Moscow Narodny Bank, indicating that the value of orders placed in the first four months of this year amounted to £3,449,335 as compared with £1,433,736 in the same period last year.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: May I ask if the hon. and gallant Member is now satisfied with the results of the ratification of the agreement?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I am not satisfied until the increase continues for a period, but the indications are that substantial orders are being placed.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: Can my hon. and gallant Friend say why there has been such a large fall in the exports from Russia in the first five months of
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    this year as compared with the first five months of last year, and such a large increase in the imports to Russia?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question hardly arises out of the question on the Order Paper.
    Mr. N. MACLEAN(for Mr. KIRKWOOD) asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department how many orders have been placed in Scotland by Russia since the completion of the Anglo-Russian trade agreement; and what action is contemplated by the Government to arrange terms for the placing of Russian shipbuilding orders in Scotland?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: There are no official figures, as United Kingdom firms are under no obligation to disclose the orders which they receive from abroad, and such unofficial figures as I have do not separately distinguish orders placed by the Soviet in Scotland. As regards the second part of the question, I presume the hon. Member has export credits in mind. His Majesty's Government do not contemplate taking any special action to arrange terms for the placing of Russian shipbuilding orders, and I would remind him that since July, 1931, export credits guarantees have not been available for the sale of construction of ocean-going vessels for any country. Guarantees are, however, available for special craft such as dredgers.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Have the Government no means of ascertaining which of these orders are for goods or products manufactured in this country, and which are for goods re-exported to Russia in the nature of raw materials?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: Yes, Sir. As I have tried to make clear, we cannot tell the total number of orders placed, because it is not necessary for firms to make returns to us of all orders placed; but we can see at the end of the year, from the trade returns, the proportions of domestic exports and of re-exports.

    IMPORTED OVERALLS.
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY(for Mr. THORP) asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that 22,000 dozen khaki shirts have been recently imported into the United Kingdom from Poland, and that they are now

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    being sold by retail in Cardiff and elsewhere at 6s. 11d. per dozen; and whether he will take steps, by negotiation or otherwise to prevent further dumping of this kind?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: My hon. and learned Friend has informed me that his question relates to overalls. My attention has not hitherto been called to this matter. As my hon. and learned Friend will realise, the question of any increase in the protection given to the home industry is, in the first place, a matter for the consideration of the Import Duties Advisory Committee.
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: This seems to be a question of dumping pure and simple; is that provided against?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, Sir; machinery is already provided for the examination of any case of that kind.

    AFFORESTATION (DERELICT AREAS).
    Mr. TINKERasked the hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, if they have had any applications from local authorities to take in hand for planting purposes those areas of land which, owing to the closing down of collieries, are derelict and unsightly to surroundings; and will he say if it is the intention of the Forestry Commissioners to consider applications of such a nature?
    Colonel Sir GEORGE COURTHOPE (Forestry Commissioner): The Forestry Commissioners have received from time to time suggestions of the character referred to, but such areas are, as a rule, unsuitable for the production of timber or too small in extent for economical management.
    Mr. TINKER: Have the Commissioners any power to help such areas as Cannock Chase even though it may be uneconomical? The land itself could be made a beauty spot whereas it is now unsightly.
    Sir G. COURTHOPE: I do not know whether the area in Cannock Chase can be regarded as a large plot of land, but I would remind the hon. Member that local authorities and other owners of land, both corporate and individual, are eligible for grants for planting from the Forestry Commissioners.

  AGRICULTURE.

    LIVESTOCK INDUSTRY.
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can make any statement on the Government's proposals to assist the livestock industry?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave yesterday to a question on the subject by my hon. Friend the Member for Horncastle (Mr. Haslam).
    Mr. EVERARD: May I ask whether, in view of the urgency of this matter, as it affects 70 per cent. of the farmers of this country, the right hon. Gentleman will give an undertaking that something will be done before the Summer Recess?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I do not think it will be possible for me to give such an undertaking.
    Lieut. - Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: Does not the Minister realise that it is absolutely essential that something should be done before the autumn?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I am fully acquainted with the urgency of the situation. I merely say that it is not possible for me to give such an undertaking as that desired by the hon. Member.

    MILK IMPORTS (OTTAWA AGREEMENTS).
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture if his attention has been drawn to the statement of the chairman of the Milk Board at the annual general meeting to the effect that the Ottawa Agreement prevents action of a satisfactory character to regulate imports; and what steps the Government propose to take in the matter?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I was aware of the statement referred to by my hon. Friend. Government proposals for meeting the present situation are embodied in the Milk Bill now before the House.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Does my right hon. Friend think it desirable that the chairman of the Milk Board should make an implied attack on the Dominions when the real trouble comes from foreign imports?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I accept no responsibility for his statements any more than I accept responsibility for statements made by the hon. Member.

    IMPORT DUTIES (CANNED FRUITS).
    Mr. D. GRENFELLasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether a report has yet been issued by the Import Duties Advisory Committee as to the representations made for increasing the duties on canned fruits; and whether, having regard to the incidence of the existing burden of 15 per cent. on these imports upon the general consumers in this country, he will give an assurance that full consideration shall be given to any further proposals for adding to the price of these commodities?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The Committee recently announced that they had this matter before them, and invited representations from interested parties. I have no doubt that they will give full attention to all relevant considerations.
    Mr. GRENFELL: Will the hon. Gentleman inform the House how representations from the consumer can reach the advisory committee before an order is approved?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: They can reach the advisory committee in writing.
    Mr. GRENFELL: Do the advisory committee still invite people to make representations to appear before them?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The committee have invited representations to be made in writing.

    CHARITABLE COLLECTIONS.
    Mr. OSWALD LEWISasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has yet come to a decision as to whether there is any action that he could usefully take for the better control of house-to-house collections and collections in such places as shop arcades and railway stations for charitable purposes in the Metropolitan Police District; and, in particular, whether he will make it obligatory for all persons taking part in such collections to have a permit from the police as recommended in the report of the Advisory Committee on Street Collections for 1933?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): Since my hon. Friend asked me a question on the same subject in April, I have given the matter my careful consideration. As he is probably
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    aware, the Departmental Committee on the supervision of charities which reported in March, 1927, recommended among other things that a system, of licensing for door-to-door collections should be introduced, and this proposal was included in the Collecting (Charities (Regulation) Bill which was introduced by the Government in 1929. This particular proposal, however, met with great opposition and the Bill was not proceeded with. In the absence of any reason to suppose that there has been a material change of feeling I do not see my way to introduce fresh legislation for the purpose, and in any case there would be no opportunity for legislation this Session.

    FIRES (INQUIRIES).
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Home Secretary if he is now in a position to make any statement as to whether he proposes to introduce a Bill to enable inquiries into fires to be held throughout the country in the same way as they are held in the City of London under the provisions of the City of London Fire Inquests Act, 1888?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No, Sir. I regret that I am not in a position to add to the reply which I gave to a question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Blackpool (Captain Erskine-Bolst) on the 13tih November last. I have already sent a copy of this reply to my hon. Friend.

    FIRST OFFENDERS (PRESS REPORTS).
    Mr. CROSSLEYasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of recent cases where magistrates have bound over first offenders with the express purpose of enabling them to regain their self-respect and reform themselves, and where their object in so doing has been defeated by sensational Press reports, he will introduce legislation to enable magistrates or county court judges at their discretion to forbid the publication of evidence in cases where their verdict is to bind over an offender not to offend again?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: As my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, there are in the Children and Young Persons Act of 1933 provisions for the protection of children and young persons on the lines which he sug-

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    gests As regards older offenders, I recognise that indiscreet Press reports may make it more difficult for a first offender to rehabilitate himself, and it is very desirable that those responsible for reporting criminal cases in the Press should bear this point in mind. While, however, the need for proper discretion on the part of the Press is fully recognised, it would be contrary to the principle which has hitherto been regarded as fundamental in our jurisprudence to give justices a power to prevent the publication of information about their proceedings in dealing with offenders other than children and young persons. In many cases it is desirable that the public should know the reasons which have prompted the Court to deal leniently with an offender.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: Would not the fundamental principle to which my right hon. Friend refers be adequately safeguarded by the publication of the findings of the court and the holding of the trial in open court, and not by sensational Press reports?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: That no doubt would make a narrower limit, but, of course, it would necessitate legislation, for which there is no opportunity at the present time.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    TRANSPORT (ROAD SURFACES).
    Mr. THORNEasked the Minister of Transport whether he has received any report from the borough surveyor of West Ham and other local authorities upon the iron plates with diamond-cut tops laid by them in certain streets; and whether he can state the life of the iron plates; and whether they have proved effective to stop skidding in damp or greasy weather.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam): These surfaces are being kept under careful observation, but as experience only extends over three years, it is not yet possible to forecast the life of the material or, at the present stage of wear and tear, to draw final conclusions as to its other properties.

    ASSYRIANS (RESETTLEMENT).
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a definite plan of resettlement of Assyrian Christians in Brazil has been worked out; and whether, in the event of its proving acceptable. His Majesty's Government will participate financially in this scheme?
    The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. Eden): The Committee of the Council of the League which has this matter in hand reported to the Council on the 5th June that the scheme for resettling in Brazil those Assyrians who wished to leave Iraq had broken down owing to the recent adoption by the Brazilian Constituent Assembly of a restrictive measure on immigration in general. The second part of the question therefore does not arise. I should add that on the 7th June the Council instructed its Committee to persist in its efforts and to make fresh representations to the Governments of countries whose territories might lend themselves to the settlement of the Assyrians. The Council in the same resolution addressed an urgent appeal to the Governments to which the Committee of the Council might make requests, to give favourable consideration to such requests and to facilitate the Committee's task in view of the great importance of the problem. The Committee has, I understand, since addressed appeals to a considerable number of Governments.
    Mr. MANDER: Is it proposed to continue the negotiations with the Brazilian Government?
    Mr. EDEN: No; they have passed restrictive measures of immigration.

    BOLIVIA AND PARAGUAY (ARMS EMBARGO).
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the present position with reference to the proposed agreement for a general embargo on the exports of arms to Bolivia and Paraguay; and whether the British Government proposes to act independently of other countries, on the analogy of the traffic in dangerous drugs and slave trading and in accordance with the precedent set by President Roosevelt?
    Mr. EDEN: The Governments of 34 countries have announced that in principle they are prepared to agree to the imposition of this embargo. The Italian Government have, however, made their agreement conditional on agreement by the Japanese Government. The latter have not yet given formal agreement, though they have explained that no exports of arms have in fact been sent from Japan to Bolivia or Paraguay. The formal coming into force of an embargo is accordingly for the moment delayed. As regards the second part of this question, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are continuing to hold up the issuing of licences for the export of arms to the two belligerents, but they are not prepared to give an undertaking that this unilateral action would be pursued indefinitely and in all circumstances.
    Mr. MANDER: Can my right hon. Friend say when the matter will come before the Council of the League for discussion or decision?
    Mr. EDEN: I cannot say definitely. We are taking what action we can. We have made representations to both the Italian and the Japanese Governments in respect to their reservations.
    Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSON: Is it a fact that the Italian Government made it a condition of consent to this embargo that existing contracts should be carried out first?
    Mr. EDEN: I should like notice of that question.

    DISARMAMENT CONFERENCE.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the terms of reference of the four sub-committees of the Disarmament Conference recently set up at Geneva; which British Minister, if any, will attend; the names of the chairmen; the date when each will commence or has commenced work; and when the General Commission meets again?
    Mr. EDEN: The terms of reference of the four committees of the Disarmament Conference referred to by the hon. Member are' contained in the Resolution adopted by the General Commission on the 8th June, the text of which has been published in the Press. I am circulating the text of the Resolution in the OFFICIAL
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    REPORT. The Committee on Security, the chairman of which is Monsieur Politis, held its first meeting on the 18th June; the Committee on Guarantees of Execution and Supervision, under the chairmanship of Monsieur Bourquin, held its first meeting on the 13th June; the chairman of the Air Committee is Monsieur de Madariaga and the chairman of the Committee on the Control of the Manufacture of and Traffic in Arms is Monsieur Scavenius. The chairmen are empowered to fix the dates for the first meetings of the two latter committees. It is not intended that any British Minister should attend the meetings of the committees at the present stage. No date has been fixed for the next meeting of the General Commission.
    Mr. MANDER: Can my right hon. Friend say who will represent the British Government? If Members of the Government do not themselves attend, surely there will be some civil servants, and cannot my right hon. Friend give the names?
    Mr. EDEN: The Government will be represented but no Minister will be present, nor will Ministers from any other Government.
    Mr. MANDER: Has it not been the practice in the past to give the names of those who will be representing the British Government, and will not my right hon. Friend be good enough to give the names?
    Mr. EDEN: I do not think there is a precedent for it, but I will look into the matter.
    Mr. MANDER: Is it not a fact that there is a precedent, and will not my right hon. Friend be good enough to look it up?
    Following is the text of the Resolution:
    The General Commission:
    Taking into consideration the resolutions submitted to it by the delegations of the six Powers, the Turkish delegation and the delegation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics respectively;
    Taking account of the clarification of its work, resulting from the French memorandum of 1st January, 1934, the Italian memorandum of 4th January, 1934, the United Kingdom memorandum of 29th January, 1934, and the German declaration of 16th April, 1934;
    Convinced of the necessity of the Conference continuing its work with a view to

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    arriving at a general convention for the reduction and limitation of armaments;
    Resolved to continue without delay the investigations already undertaken:
    I.
    Invites the Bureau to seek, by whatever means it deems appropriate and with a view to the general acceptance of a Disarmament (Convention, a solution of the outstanding problems, without prejudice to the private conversations on which Governments will desire to enter in order to facilitate the attainment of final success by the return of Germany to the conference.
    II.
    Having regard Co the peculiar importance presented by the study and solution of certain problems to which attention was drawn at the beginning of the general discussion,
    Takes the following decisions:
    (1) Security.
    (a) Since the results of the earlier work of the conference have enabled certain regional security agreements to be concluded in Europe during the past year, the General Commission decides to appoint a special committed to conduct such preliminary studies as it may consider appropriate in order to facilitate the conclusion of further agreements of the same nature which may be negotiated outside the conference. It would be for the General Com mission to determine the relationship, if any, of these agreements to the General Convention.
    (b) The General Commission decides to appoint a special committee to study the question of guarantees of execution, and to resume the work relating to supervision.
    (2) Air Forces.
    The General Commission instructs its Air Committee to resume forthwith the study of the questions mentioned in its resolution of 23rd July, 1932, under the heading: 1. "Air Forces."*
    (3) Manufacture of and Trade in Arms.
    The General Commission requests its special Committee on questions relating to the manufacture of and trade in arms to resume its work forthwith, and, in the light of the statements made by the United States delegate at the meeting of 29th May, 1934, to report to it as early as possible on the solutions it recommends.
    These Committees will carry on their work on parallel lines; and it will be coordinated by the Bureau.
    III.
    The General Commission leaves it to the Bureau to take the necessary steps at the proper time to ensure that when the President convenes the General Commission it will have before it as far as possible a complete draft Convention.
    IV.
    Recognising that the proposal of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics delegation that the Conference be declared a permanent institution under the title of the
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    Peace Conference calls for careful study, the General Commission requests the President to submit that proposal to the Governments.
    * The Conference, deeply impressed with the danger overhanging civilisation from bombardment from the air in the event of future conflict, and determined to take all practicable measures to provide against this danger, records at this stage of its work the following conclusions:

    1. Air attack against the civilian population shall be absolutely prohibited;

    2. The High Contracting Parties shall agree as between themselves that all bombardment from the air shall be abolished, subject to agreement with regard to measures to be adopted for the purpose of rendering effective the observance of this rule.

    These measures should include the following:

    (a) there shall be effected a limitation by number and a restricting by characteristics of military aircraft;

    (b) civil aircraft shall be submitted to regulation and full publicity. Further, civil aircraft not conforming to the specified limitations shall be subjected to an international regime (except for certain regions where such a regime is not suitable) such as to prevent effectively the misuse of such civil aircraft.

  HOUSING.

    WOODEN HUTS, SHEFFIELD.
    Mr. HAMER RUSSELLasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there are in Sheffield some 700 or 800 wooden huts, erected in 1915–16, for the purpose of providing temporary accommodation for munition workers; that the huts are now used permanently for human habitation; that they in no way comply with the building by-laws; that many of them are infested with bugs; and what steps he is prepared to take to deal with the matter?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Shakespeare): My right hon. Friend is aware of the existence of these huts, the demolition of which is contemplated by the Corporation of Sheffield. Their slum programme is a large one, extending to the demolition of some 9,000 houses in five years, and the Corporation propose to deal first with the worst houses. My right hon. Friend understands that they are advised that these huts are not so bad as other property with which they are dealing at the present time.
    Mr. RUSSELL: Does my hon. Friend accept the statement of the local authority that there are worse houses in Sheffield than wooden bug-infested huts?

    SLUM CLEARANCE, SOUTHAMPTON.
    Mr. YOUNGasked the Minister of Health (1) whether he is aware that under the Housing Act, 1930, Mrs. J. Neale, of 23, St. Kenya Avenue, Hove, was ordered in October, 1932, to demolish Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4, Victoria Court, Southampton; that the demolition charges in connection with the same amounted to £43; that legal and other charges amounted to £42 10s.; that the municipal authorities of Southampton do not intend to purchase the site; that Mrs. Neale is not permitted to sell it to a private person for building purposes; and wheher he proposes to take any action in the matter;
    (2) whether he is aware that Mrs. J. Neale has recently been served with an order to demolish Nos. 1 and 2, Vyse Court, Southampton, in the Wickham Court clearance area; that she is unable to pay the costs of demolition and to engage legal assistance to represent her interests at the inquiry; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The houses in Victoria Court were included as being unfit for human habitation in a Clearance Order confirmed by my right hon. Friend under the Housing Act, 1930. The Act provides that such properties shall be demolished by the owners, or in their default, by the local authority who may recover from the owners any expenses so incurred, and no compensation is payable. An owner has a right to appeal to my right hon. Friend at any time against restrictions imposed by the local authority on the development of the cleared site. Mrs. Neale has not exercised this right of appeal. The houses in Vyse Court are included in a Clearance Order which is at present receiving consideration. The objection lodged on behalf of Mrs. Neale will be carefully considered and my right hon. Friend's decision will be reached in the light of a report by his Inspector following an inspection of the properties. It will be open to Mrs. Neale to attend the inquiry which is to be held on the 26th June either in person or by any agent she may appoint.
    Mr. YOUNG: With reference to the last part of the second question, may I ask what will happen to this lady, who is now entirely without means, if the council decide to demolish her property and she is unable to pay their bills?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: That is a matter between the council and the lady in question.

    AFRICA (PROTECTION OF FAUNA AND FLORA).
    Mr. OSWALD LEWISasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is yet in a position to make an announcement with regard to the ratification by this country of the convention concluded at the International Conference in November last for the protection of the fauna and flora of Africa?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): I regret that I am not yet in a position to make an announcement in regard to the ratification of this Convention.
    Mr. LEWIS: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate how greatly a strong lead from this country would improve the chances of co-operation between the various countries concerned in this matter?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Yes, and we gave a very strong lead at the Conference; indeed, we were largely responsibl for its success; but a large number of colonies are concerned, and we want to be perfectly certain that in this respect they will work in common.

    KENYA (EUROPEAN RESIDENTS).
    Mr. OSWALD LEWISasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention has been called to a suggestion put forward by the Kenya Society for race improvement, supported by a number of doctors in practice in Nairobi, that research should be undertaken into the effects of the East African climate on European residents; and whether, having regard to the important bearing of this question on the problem of white settlement, he will himself initiate some such inquiry?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I know nothing of this suggestion beyond what has appeared in the Press; and my hon. Friend will not expect me to form an opinion upon such slender material.
    Mr. LEWIS: Will my right hon. Friend make further inquiries?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think I had better await developments.

    ARMAMENTS (PRIVATE MANUFACTUEE).
    Mr. MANDERasked the Prime Minister if he will consider the advisability of appointing a special committee to investigate the charges made that private armament interests in this country have been responsible for fomenting discord between nations with a view to their own financial profit?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): I do not know to what specific charges the hon. Member refers. I am not aware that any such charge has been formulated by anyone in a manner sufficiently concrete or substantiated to warrant or bear examination. In reply to a question on the 23rd April, I informed my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North (Mr. Bernays) that no useful purpose would be served by the appointment of a commission of inquiry. Nothing that affords a reason to alter that view has since been brought to my notice.
    Mr. MANDER: If I can bring to the attention of the Prime Minister some charges of this kind, will he be good enough to give the matter further consideration?
    The PRIME MINISTER indicated assent.
    Mr. MAXTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman conversant with the publications of the Union of Democratic Control, which include this statements
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, but it is rather old material.
    Mr. MAXTON: You were responsible for it.
    Mr. HANNON: May I ask whether there is a single case on record at the War Office or in any Defence Depart-
    202
    ment of any armament firm in this country trying to create discord among the nations?

    UNITED STATES (BRITISH DEBT).
    Mr. CURRYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the fact that there is a large number of unemployed people in the United States of America, and that there is now a prospect of the Government of the United States of America being willing to accept the value of this country's indebtedness to them by payments in kind, he will explore the possibility of paying the American debt by the trans-shipment of boots, clothing, and other goods manufactured in this country, which could be purchased by His Majesty's Treasury for that purpose and used in the United States of America for the relief of destitution there?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): As the hon. Member is aware, this matter was referred to in the Note recently addressed to His Majesty's (Government by the United States Government. A reply to that Note is at present under consideration, and I should prefer not to make any statement on the matter at the present moment.

    INCOME TAX.
    Lieut. - Colonel Sir ARNOLD WILSONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will consider the desirability of initiating test inquiries in typical areas with a view to ascertaining, approximately, what proportion of the total sum of £101,000,000, shown at page 67 of the 76th Annual Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, as the assumed cost of repairs for the purposes of Income Tax, Schedule A, under Section 30 of the Finance Act, 1933, is in fact so expended by property owners?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The actual expenditure on the repair and maintenance of property only comes under review of the Income Tax authorities in cases where the taxpayer claims a supplementary allowance on the ground that the actual expenditure, taken over an average of five years, exceeds the flat-rate allowance made in the assessment. The Inland

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    Revenue Department have no knowledge of the actual expenditure in other cases, nor have they any power to require property owners to furnish any information in regard thereto. It is therefore quite impracticable to undertake an inquiry of the kind suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend.
    Mr. CURRY: In the event of local authorities requiring specific repairs to be done to council property under the 1930 Act, will allowance be made by the Treasury with regard to Schedule A assessments?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I hesitate in reply to a supplementary question to lay down the law. If the hon. Member will give me notice of the question, I will be only too happy to answer it.

    PALESTINE (IMMIGRATION).
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction at the action of the High Commissioner for Palestine in restricting the number of Jewish immigrants to 5,600; and whether, in view of the undertaking to assist the Jewish people to build Palestine, the efforts which have made it possible to absorb Jewish labour and the large number of Jewish exiles at the present time, he will enter into consultation with the High Commissioner as to the desirability of allowing an increase in the number of Jewish immigrants?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The figure referred to by the hon. Member is the Labour Schedule for six months. The total number of immigrants is considerably in excess of that figure, the total for the first two months of this year being 4,890. As the hon. Member is aware, His Majesty's Government has always insisted, as is their duty under the Mandate, that immigration into Palestine must be governed by the economic absorptive capacity of that country. I am sure too that it will be generally agreed that the absorptive capacity can best be judged by the High Commissioner on the spot.
    Captain STRICKLAND: Is it not a fact that the addition to the ordinary quota has been advanced for the forth-
    204
    coming half-year; further, will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House the number of certificates applied for by the Jewish agency and whether the Jewish agency were convinced that they could find employment for such a number; if so, what was the reason for cutting it down to a very small proportion?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I could not answer a number of detailed questions involving figures. I can take responsibility without notice for saying that the decision as to the number of immigrants that should be admitted was arrived at by the High Commissioner simply and solely on his authoritative judgment as to what was the genuine absorptive capacity of the country, looking both at the present and the future.
    Captain STRICKLAND: Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that there has been Government restriction, that he denied the other day?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir, most certainly not. There has not been any change whatever in the policy which every Government have pursued in the last 15 years ever since the mandate was undertaken. We are pledged under the mandate that the High Commissioner shall decide the number of immigrants on the absorptive capacity of the country.
    Captain STRICKLAND: Is that not a restriction on the number asked for?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Of course, it is a restriction.

    COTTON MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL.
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY (for Mr. THORP)asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the wages cost of weaving a piece of artificial silk in Lancashire is 8s., and that the wages cost for weaving the same material in the vicinity of Bradford is only 4s. 6d.; and whether he will take the necessary steps to extend the geographical limits prescribed by the Cotton Manufacturing Industry (Temporary Provisions) Bill?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. R. S. Hudson): My right hon. Friend has no precise information as to the

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    respective wage costs involved in weaving artificial silk in the areas mentioned by my hon. Friend, but I would remind my hon. Friend that the purpose of the Bill is to make temporary provision for enabling stautory effect to be given to rates of wages agreed between representative organisations in the cotton manufacturing industry.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: Is there no method of checking whether the statement made in the first part of the question is correct or not?

    SWANSEA PRISON STAFF (PROMOTION).
    Mr. JOHNasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the officers on the Swansea prison staff are being neglected in the scope for promotion; how many officers have been promoted to the rank of principal officer during the past eight years to the nearest convenient date; how many officers have been awarded the Imperial Service Medal during that period; and whether there is any ground for differentiation in the treatment of the staff of this Welsh prison?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The hon. Member is mistaken in thinking that the claims of the prison staff at Swansea have been neglected in considering promotion to the rank of principal officer or awards of the Imperial Service Medal. When a vacancy occurs for a principal officer at any prison, all senior officers who are qualified for promotion are considered, and promotion is offered to the one who appears best suited for the post. During the last eight years the number of vacancies so filled has been 286, and it so happens that none has been promoted from Swansea, which has a small staff. During the same period there have been 10 retirements from the discipline ranks and two awards of the Imperial Service Medal at Swansea. There is no ground for the suggestion that there has been differentiation in the treatment of the staff at Swansea.

    MILK SALES (PROSECUTIONS).
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE(for Brigadier - General CLIFTON BROWN) asked the Minister of Health what is the number of producers of milk in England and Wales who have been prosecuted during the last 12 months under the Food and Drugs Adulteration Act, 1928; in how many of these cases was a fine imposed; and the total amount of these fines?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: Prosecutions for offences under the Food and Drugs (Adulteration) Act, 1928, are undertaken by local authorities. The information supplied to my right hon. Friend does not distinguish between producers and other vendors of milk. My right hon. Friend regrets, therefore, that he is unable to give the required information.

    MR. SPEAKER.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I have to ask the indulgence of the House for a moment. The University of Oxford has honoured me by proposing to confer a degree upon me to-morrow. As this proposal is, no doubt, due to the office to which the House has called me, I ask the permission of the House to be absent on that occasion.
    HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

    NEW MEMBER SWORN.
    Major John Arthur Herbert, for the County of Monmouth (Monmouth Division).

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 55.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  PETROLEUM (PRODUCTION) BILL [Lords].
  Order for Second Residing read.
  3.52 p.m.
  Mr. MICHAEL BEAUMONT: On a point of Order. Before we proceed to the discussion, I want to ask your Ruling, Sir, whether we are, or are not, entitled to proceed with the Bill at this stage. The Standing Order lays down that in any case of a Motion made in the House which imposes a charge upon the people
  "the consideration and Debate thereof shall not be presently entered upon, but shall be adjourned till such further day as the House shall think to appoint and then it shall be referred to a Committee of the Whole House before any Resolution or Vote of the House do pass therein."
  Inasmuch as Clause 1 takes away from the people of this country a contingent property which they now possess, namely, the right to petroleum under any land they may happen to possess, I suggest that it involves a charge upon the people and, as such, I cannot see why we should be in order in proceeding with it until a Financial Resolution has been passed by a Committee of the House.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member only gave me very short notice that he was going to put this point of Order to me, but I make no complaint of that as the question was in my mind, before he raised it. The only Standing Orders that might be concerned with this case are Standing Orders 63 and 68 which do not deal with the kind of transaction raised by this Bill. These Standing Orders deal with monetary charges, a charge upon the public revenue, which is the phrase used in Standing Order 63, and a charge upon the people, which is the phrase used in Standing Order 68. As regards property, petroleum is in a rather different category from other forms of property, in consequence of the Petroleum Act of 1918, which makes it necessary for any owner of land to obtain a licence before he can bore for petroleum; but, with regard to property in the ordinary sense, there are several precedents for the transference of property to the Crown without any Money Resolution preceding a Bill.
  3.51 p.m.
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runcitnum): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  The object of the Government in asking the House to give a Second Reading to this Bill is to facilitate the search and boring for and the getting of petroleum. The importance of this question is not political, but is economic. This country, as far as I know at present, has such small sources of petroleum and there have been so many difficulties in the way of those companies which wished to search for petroleum, that we have to depend entirely on outside sources for our liquid fuel, with the solitary exception of the steps which were taken earlier this year and last year to obtain liquid fuel from coal. The discovery of petroleum here is of increasing importance for industrial purposes. A large and increasing number of factories and works are dependent upon petroleum for their fuel, the amount of internal combustion machinery in this country is constantly on the increase, and a very large and increasing amount of petroleum is used in its various forms for propulsion purposes afloat as well as ashore. If we were to continue, as we are at the present time, almost entirely dependent upon foreign sources for our supplies, it is clear that we should not only be hampering our own economic development here, but we should be placing ourselves in a position in regard to national defence such as we occupied from 1914 to 1918, when the liquid fuel necessary for the Fleet and other purposes was brought in tankers along routes which were dangerous. It came in convoys, which, thank God, were nearly always successful, but there is no doubt that the position was one of considerable peril.
  If we can, during times of peace, do anything to develop our own reserves—I do not care whether it is coal or oil or any other natural product—it is the bounden duty of this House to grant the necessary facilities, while at the same time safeguarding all rights which exist at the present time. I doubt very much whether there is anyone here who would say that he desired to impede the search for or the getting of petroleum. It is one of the objects which Parliament has declared more than once in the past and no doubt will declare once more to-day.

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  The question that we have had to ask ourselves in dealing with this subject is a simple one: Does the existing system seriously hamper the search for oil? The answer to that is quite certain. It does interfere with the search for oil, and if it interferes with the search for oil, we ought to do what we can to grant facilities while, as I say, safeguarding such rights as at present exist. But let us be quite clear on the first point, that we do desire to facilitate the search for oil.
  The second point that I would wish to make is this, that if we desire to facilitate the search for oil, we must examine carefully the rights what at present exist. As far as we know, there are very small petroleum rights to be found anywhere in the United Kingdom. It is certain that landowners and site owners in various parts of the country have never imagined for a moment that petroleum was adding to the value of their property. If petroleum were found in any area or under any land or site, I am sure it would only be in rare instances, and they are provided for in the Schedule to the Bill, and it would come as a great surprise to the landowner. Secondly, those who at present may hope to find oil under their properties have done little or nothing in the way of exploration, and, as far as I know, there has been no land, of large area or small, which has changed hands with oil bearing any part in the consideration. No money has been paid for the transfer of any oil under a property. Parliament has, moreover, held in the past, and certainly in one Measure if not in two Measures, that property in petroleum is in a different category from property in coal, and very largely for that simple reason, that nobody imagines for a moment at the present time that there has been any transaction which was dependent on the knowledge that oil was found under any site or land.
  Any boring for the ascertainment of coal, comparatively complicated as it is, is a simple matter compared with the ascertainment of the position of petroleum, if there be any. Imagine the difficulty in which an oil company would be placed which wanted to make an exploration under licence as it is entitled to under the Act of 1918. It sets to work; imagine that it finds oil. To whom does
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  that oil belong? Does it belong simply to the freeholder on whose surface the drill first made its penetration, or does it belong to all the landowners who have oil under their properties? At the present time no one is able to say. It is quite certain that if, for instance, we took an important county like the county of Rutland, and allowed boring in Rutland, it would be necessary to deal not only with the freeholder who owned the site on which the bore hole was placed, but with all the thousands of freehold and site owners who are in the county of Rutland. Can anybody imagine for a moment that that would be an ordinary, suitable, simple, business transaction? It shows how impossible it would be for any of the considerations which have previously been provided for in Acts of Parliament, protecting coal or other minerals, to apply to the problem of petroleum.
  So far as the practical working of the petroleum industry is concerned, it is absolutely essential that we should find some solution of this very complicated and increasing obstacle. We must get that out of the way, otherwise we can make no progress. The Government have considered every alternative that has been before a Royal Commission or a Committee or before Parliament in any Session in the past, and they have come to the conclusion that there is no possibility of assessing these innumerable rights, if they exist. In the first place, we hold the view that these rights, if they exist at all, are purely imaginary and have no practical value, and never have had any practical value. The only method by which these multifarious problematical rights can be brought into some sort of businesslike uniformity is by vesting the rights in the Crown. That is the only way in which you can deal with it. We have taken care in this Bill to provide for the three instances in which rights are said to exist. They are set out in the Schedule. But, as far as the procedure is concerned, it is essential that we should find something a great deal simpler than anything which is provided under the ordinary law at the present time.
  After eliminating all the possibilities, we have come to the conclusion that the only way in which it is possible to simplify matters and to remove the obstacles to the operations of the oil

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  properties which would give any chance of adding to the national wealth and national security by means of petroleum, is to vest those oil properties, if they exist at all, in the Crown. Having reached that conclusion, we ask the House to endorse it to-day. If we proceed along those lines, in the first place transferring to the Grown these various rights, what must we safeguard? We must be sure that the licences which are issued shall be issued fairly and squarely, that we do not provide for any hole-and-corner business. That aspect of the problem was mentioned in the course of discussion in another place, and was disposed of in a way that makes it clear, but I should say at once that this is not the first proposal to confer such powers on a Government Department. It is part of the normal procedure as long as we have to trust in the honesty of Government Departments, and is a perfectly proper procedure. If the House at any time decided that these public Departments were not fit to be entrusted with a duty like this, we should need to have something not short of a revolution in our Civil Service. I can imagine no authorities more likely to be trustworthy than those to be found in the principal Departments of State. We therefore turn, quite rightly, to this means alone to provide for the selection and issue of licences. It has been asked that there should be as much publicity as possible given to the issue of these licences. I would point out that, of course, it is not practicable that there should be publicity before the licences are actually granted. That would lead to all sorts of transactions which would not be fair to the prospective licensee. But immediately the licences have been granted, we are prepared to give publicity in the usual way and through the usual channels, and such advertisement as may be necessary for public purposes would be made by the Department concerned.
  The next point which I would like to examine is this: Is there any new departure in the steps which are now being taken? There is only one new departure, and that is in the transfer of these royalty rights to the Crown. Otherwise there is precedent for everything suggested here. Precedent is to be found, for instance, in the steps to be taken in the early stages in the Mines (Working Facilities
  218
  and Support) Act, 1923. Clause 3 of the present Bill applies that Act to the petroleum working, and also provides certain supplementary provisions. Let me point out some of these provisions. The House will, no doubt, be interested, as it ought to be, in the preservation of our amenities. It is very easy to destroy the appearance of a countryside by an industry, and we shall do everything we possibly can to mitigate what may be necessary, or to prevent what may be unnecessary. For the first time in the history of legislation of this kind, the Railway and Canal Commission is directed to
  "have regard … to the effect on the amenities of the locality of the proposed use and occupation of the land."
  I would suggest to the House that that is a very proper proceeding. I can only express my regret that it has not been adopted in the earlier history of industries when many of the more beautiful parts of our country were destroyed.
  I come to the second point I would make on this procedure. If anyone is subjected to disturbance, it is only right that he should be compensated. The question is to what extent he should be compensated. The view we have taken is that in making a departure of this kind we ought to err rather on the side of generosity than on the side of meanness. We have, therefore, provided that compensation shall be paid, giving an additional allowance of not less than 10 per cent. on account of the compulsory acquisition of the facilities asked for. I submit to the House that that is a very generous proposal, and it is one of which I trust the House will approve. If you take together these two proposals, first of all that the Railway and Canal Commission, when appealed to, should have regard to the effect on the amenities of the neighbourhood, and, secondly, that sufficient compensation is paid to the owners in those cases, then, I think, we may say that we have taken two valuable steps in the right direction for the preservation of our amenities. At all events, it is quite certain that our amenities are much more likely to be safeguarded by controlled than by uncontrolled development. I hope that some of my hon. Friends who are interested in this aspect of the problem will keep that well in mind.

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  I have no doubt that many Members of the House have seen what has happened in the United States of America, where uncontrolled development has led to the disfigurement of long stretches of territory, and at the present time, I am sure, there is not an American publicist, or indeed any American citizen, who would not envy us an Act similar to the one which, I hope, this will be when it has passed through its various stages. In America, uncontrolled development has led to the most amazing anomalies. There has been not only disfigurement of the countryside, but there has been the most awful confusion of private rights. There being no provisions such as those embodied in this Bill, a bore-hole has been sunk in an area the size of this House, and immediately alongside a rival has sunk another bore-hole, until hundreds are grouped round one centre, and in some of the best oil-bearing areas in the Southern States of America the confusion has been so great that an attempt has been made many times in the past to clear up those rights in the courts, but the attempt to do so has been, on the whole, a failure. Cases have run on in the courts 11, 12 and 13 years, and provided no solution. Recently in conversation with one of the most important younger men engaged in the oil business in America, having read the discussions in the House of Lords, he said that he had come to the conclusion that we were far wiser and far more foresighted than the people of his own country, and that he and others who are interested would give a great deal to have placed on their Statute Book the Bill which we are now presenting to Parliament. Do not let us repeat here the errors made in the United States of America.
  I would like to remind the House that what we are asking Members to do today is not to take an important political step, but a most important industrial step. It is quite possible to exaggerate the importance of what we are doing now from a purely business point of view, but, at all events, I want to see the obstacles removed to allow for the necessary development of our country. This is one of the regions in which we have been least active, and if now we can induce some responsible oil concerns, who have the necessary resources and are prepared to venture large sums of capital in the
  220
  exploration of oil, to embark on those explorations in these islands, I do not say that I believe oil will be discovered, but I know that we shall be taking the only step possible to ascertain what wealth there is below the surface. It is quite possible that the only oil which can be produced will come from such great depths as to make it commercially impossible, but let us see that in making that attempt we shall not allow any interests other than those of the public to be considered.
  I know it is possible that there are some Members of the House who will express their surprise at this Bill being introduced by me. I am not as a rule associated with any Socialist propaganda, nor am I now. All that I am asking is that the House will grant facilities whereby private enterprise may have a chance of developing this national resource, and, in giving private enterprise that chance, I have no doubt that we shall be doing a good turn for British industry as a whole. Whatever may be the feeling which some of my hon. Friends have about this Bill, I hope that they will constantly keep in mind what the Government have before them, namely, to give us a chance of developing our own national resources to the best of our ability and for the full advantage of the public.
  4.13 p.m.
  Mr. GEORGE HALL: I know that no one speaking from this side of the House in dealing with a matter of this kind will have an easier task than I have this afternoon. With the exception of one or two phrases in the right hon. Gentleman's speech, I think we can say that we are in entire agreement with him. As far as the principle of the Bill is concerned, let there be no mistake about it—we are in agreement. As far as I can see from the Order Paper, the only opposition which the right hon. Gentleman is to get to the proposals in this Bill will be from some of his hon. Friends behind him. That was the experience, of course, when the Bill was in the other place. I think that the Members of the other House who represent the same view as we do on these benches were silent with one exception. Throughout the whole of the proceedings in the other place, I think there was only one speech made from a colleague of ours there, and that was in support of the Bill. As

  221
  a matter of fact, if the Bill needed seconding, I should be quite prepared to add my name to that of the right hon. Gentleman.
  It is not without interest that the Second Reading of the Bill is moved by the right hon. Gentleman, and that it was piloted through another place by the Secretary of State for Air. It is, indeed, a very good combination of one who is presumed to represent the Liberal side of the Coalition in the National Government, and another who represents the Conservative side. It is a Bill which, after all, whatever may be said by the right hon. Gentleman as to whether it is industrial or political, is changing the law concerning the value of a commodity in the interior of the earth in this country. We on this side of the House are pleased that the Prime Minister and his few National Labour colleagues in the Cabinet have asserted themselves and that they are to have just a small piece of Socialism in their time. We have been waiting for nearly three years for some evidence that this is a National Government. For the last three years we have had Conservative legislation, but, as one of my hon. Friends says, deep down in the earth we are getting a little to justify the existence of those Members of the Cabinet who say that they believe in Socialism. I wonder what would be the fate of this Bill if it had been introduced by myself or any of my hon. Friends from this side of the House, and if we had asked that the Bill should go a little further than is proposed. With the exception of the right hon. Gentleman's reference to the fact that the exploitation of oil is to be handed over to private enterprise, and the difficulty concerning the ascertaining of the ownership of the fuel, owing to the fact that it is in liquid form, it might well be said that every argument that he has put before the House can be applied to those minerals which are now held to be owned by the owners of the surface rights.
  We agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said with regard to the importance of petroleum. We recognise the growing dependence of this and other nations upon this liquid fuel. There can be no doubt that we are living in an age of petroleum. Our Navy, a very large proportion of the Mercantile Marine, road and air transport are depending upon this fuel and, as the right hon. Gentle-
  222
  man pointed out, not only is there an. increasing use of petroleum for industrial purposes, but we find that inroads are being made into the heating of a large number of places in the country as the result of the use of this new fuel. It is remarkable to remember that during the last 30 years the world output of this liquid fuel has increased something like 10 times. Last year the increase in the world's production of oil was 9 per cent. above that of 1932 and, notwithstanding the fact that we on this side of the House are pleased to think that coal is still the dominating fuel, the increase in the world's output of coal was only 2½ per cent.
  We would ask the Government to do all they possibly can to encourage the production of this liquid fuel, as the result of legislation of this kind, perhaps going a little further than the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to go, searching and obtaining the oil, if it is there, and doing all that we possibly can to produce oil from coal. An industrial nation such as we are possesses so far as is known at the present time little or no oil resources within its own shores, and within the British Empire we only produce about 2 per cent. of the world's output of oil. We think that a Measure of this kind will assist, and much work might be done. Notwithstanding the gloomy prophecies of the right hon. Gentleman, it is true to say that some experts have declared their belief that oil may exist in this country, but so far no effort of a substantial kind has been made to discover it. The only effort made was as a result of State money which was voted in 1918–19. A sum of £1,000,000 of public money was voted, of which something like £570,000 was spent. As a result of the spending of that money some oil was discovered, and that suggests that there may be oil still in the earth of this country. No one suggests that the efforts that have been made have exhausted the possibilities of finding oil. I saw a report in one of the week-end newspapers which gave a very exaggerated view of the possibilities of oil production in this country, largely as a result of this Bill. The correspondent visualised huge gushes of oil in various parts of the country and said that we should have great oil production. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) has seen and I have seen

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  huge gushes of 250,000 gallons of oil a day in other parts of the world, but I am afraid that the optimism of that correspondent is not going to be justified.
  We think that the Bill is necessary. It will protect the rights of the State and, if oil is discovered, it will decide once and for all as to the ownership of the oil. It is interesting to note that this is about the first piece of legislation introduced into this House during the history of Parliament dealing with the ownership of minerals. The question of the ownership of some minerals such as coal and minerals of that kind was decided nearly 400 years ago, and since that time little or no legislation has been introduced to interfere with that ownership. I am not suggesting that that ownership does not interfere with the rights of working the minerals. So far as the ownership of minerals is concerned, with the exception of gold and silver, I think it is true to say that the ownership is vested in the landowner who owns the surface rights. It is not without interest to speculate what would have been the economic state of this country to-day if the judgment given in 1568 which gave to the landowner the ownership of the minerals, had been different. It is indisputable that, if any broadly conceived national policy is to be pursued in the production of the mineral wealth of the country, the minerals should be owned by the State. The distribution of the minerals among a large number of owners, as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, places innumerable obstacles in the way of efficient organisation of all industries connected with the mining of minerals.
  We claim definitely that the present system of royalty ownership is a clog on the free development of mining enterprises. That is proved, for there has been no inquiry into the difficulties with which the coal industry of this country has been confronted during the last 25 years without reference being made to the difficulties which have arisen as the result of the private ownership of minerals. The Sankey Commission in their report may have been divided on many questions, four different reports were submitted, but there was no doubt about the unanimity of all the members of the Sankey Commission as to the (difficulties which have arisen because of
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  the ownership of that important mineral, coal. The same may be said with regard to the report of the Commission presided over by the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) in 1925, when it dealt with the same matter. The Coal Mines' Reorganisation Commission in its report published late last year dealt with the same difficulty. I might quote their reference to the difficulty which has arisen as a result of this private ownership. The Commission refer to the part which the nationalisation of royalties was originally intended to play in making the changes which they were asked to bring about, and they go on to say:
  "Even if those structural changes were successfully made, the present system of mineral ownership would stand in the way of effective and lasting reorganisation. This weakens incentive to face the difficulties of making them. 'What,' we are asked, is the use of doing all these troublesome things, eliminating waste, secure planned development and get rid of superfluous units, so long as so much still depends on the accident of mineral ownership, and our plans may always be stultified by the opening or re-opening of mines without regard to corporate efficiency or national need?' We can only answer this question by saying that Parliament will presumably remove sooner or later—whether by nationalisation or some less sweeping reform—an impediment that so seriously obstructs the fulfilment of its policy."
  That is the position concerning coal, and now that we have a new industry which is likely to grow up we say that the Government are taking proper and necessary steps to see that the organisation of that industry shall not be impeded as is the organisation of the coal industry at the present time. In addition to the difficulties to which I have referred, my hon. friends on this side of the House know that there is nothing that has given greater cause for discontent among the miners than the fact that a portion of their living has been filched from them and handed over to other people who have made no contribution at all to the industry. There is an instance in South Wales at the present time where the royalty charge upon a ton of coal is 1s. 4d. In addition, there are wayleaves, so that, including wayleaves and royalties, the income of the landowner is something like 1s. 6d. or 1s. 7d. per ton of coal. I will not pursue that argument further, but we have already seen in the desire to search for oil in this country that similar diffi-

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  culties have arisen regarding the granting of leases as we have had to meet in dealing with coal. I should like to give a quotation from the "Oil News" of 29th March of this year. Referring to this Bill it says:
  "The main defect of the 1918 Act"
  to which the right hon. Gentleman referred—
  "was that under it, although anyone could get a licence to drill, practically no one could make an agreement with landowners on reasonable terms for the would-be licensee. That, to our knowledge, has prevented scores of desirable parties from applying for licences."
  Not that they had any doubt at all that they might be successful in obtaining oil, but because difficulties arose as a result of failing to get an agreement with the owners of the land. On 31st March of this year the "Petroleum Times" said:
  "The British Government has at last taken what appears to us a sensible step in cutting the Gordian knot which has deterred oil exploration in the past. While surface owners will be safeguarded, the ownership of the oil beneath will be vested in the Crown, and measures are to be taken to remove the almost insuperable lease and royalty difficulties which previously hampered oil research."
  Therefore, exactly the same difficulty has been experienced in dealing with the exploitation of oil as in dealing with the production of coal.
  I can say on behalf of my hon. Friends that we welcome this Bill. It is a revolutionary departure from the common law, under which a landowner owns everything beneath his land. It is indeed remarkable that a freeholder should be held in law to possess not only the surface rights but whatever minerals may lie below, at whatever depth they may be made available. We claim that the private ownership of the interior of the earth in this country cannot be defended on any reasonable ground, and we are pleased that this Bill is introduced, for it will determine the ownership of some mineral products, however limited they are, and it should enable the nation to realise the difficulties with which it has been faced concerning other minerals. If this Bill, without compensation, took for the State the ownership of the oil discovered, I do not know that anyone could complain; but generous compensation is provided in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Rail-
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  way and Canal Commission will take all questions into consideration; first, the market value of the land; secondly, the question of amenities; and in addition to the market value of the land and the amenities there is to be 10 per cent. added to the owner as compensation for working oil under his land. We think that the Government have overstepped the mark in the generosity of their compensation.
  The right hon. Gentleman mentioned that licences already in existence are to be continued. We would like to see the licences in existence lapse with the 1918 Act, for we must take note that some of these licences have been in operation for some time. The licence to work or search for oil in the county of Derbyshire was granted in 1923. I ask the Secretary for Mines, who is to reply, to tell us whether that licence has been used in any way, and whether the person who holds the licence has spent a single penny for the purpose of ascertaining whether oil has been discovered in the area for which the licence is taken out. The same question might apply to the other licences which have been granted, one over four years ago and the other three years ago. We would like to know something also as to the regulations. What kind of regulations have the board in mind for the granting of these licences, and on the question of payment of royalties? We were a little startled by what the right hon. Gentleman said, that, EIS far as the Government were concerned, all they were going to do was to grant licences to private enterprise for private enterprise to try this out. We wish the Government would have courage to go the whole hog and do what Sub-section (1) of Clause 1 indicates that they can do. We would have liked the Bill to have gone much further in the matter of the ownership of royalties. We regret very much that other minerals are left out. But we support the Bill and will give the right hon. Gentleman all the assistance possible to get it through, for if oil or natural gas is found in this country its ownership under this Bill will be secured. In our opinion it will enable a new industry to develop in an ordinary way without the waste caused by the interest of the landowner being first considered. This Bill puts the interest of the nation before all others, and the nation should reap the benefit.
  4.35 p.m.
  Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH: I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will believe me when I say that it is with sincere delight that I am able to support whole-heartedly a Bill introduced by himself, assisted by his hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines. As the last speaker said, we were really committed beforehand to support of the Bill by the attitude we adopted with regard to coal. We were in favour of applying to the coal industry the principles now put forward, and if the late President of the Board of Trade had included such a provision in his Bill under the last Labour Government, it would have received our support. I agree, however, that there are reasons which make it far easier and much smoother to apply the provisions to oil than to coal. I am just wondering what would have happened if past ages had been able to obtain a vision of our industrial development. If early Kings, such as William the Conqueror, in making grants of land to their supporters had been able to foresee the future and had preserved to the Crown the mineral rights, the industrial development of this country would undoubtedly have gone very much more smoothly. Some fortunes which had no foundation in justice perhaps would not have been made, but the welfare of the country would have been vastly increased. By these proposals no injustice is done to anyone.
  The House is rightly jealous of the rights of property, properly understood, but I believe that property should not be regarded and respected as an abstraction, in which case it may be a vicious principle, but that what should be regarded are the rights of legitimate expectation. When an institution has existed, however illegal its foundation, and in the course of history a mining right has been bought and sold and value given for it, it becomes very difficult indeed to deal with it without doing injustice to someone. When a man has either himself or by his ancestors paid over solid money for a right which the nation now no longer regards as proper to exist, naturally he demands some kind of compensation. It, therefore, makes the whole problem very much simpler if statesmen have the foresight and courage to deal with the matter at the beginning before these vested interests have grown up. I congratulate the Gov-
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  ernment on taking this step now, when the vested interests that have grown up are negligible, and when the future of this kind of industrial development Can be assured.
  There are, of course, and there are bound to be, opponents of a Measure of this kind. I am rather afraid that we might rather increase the difficulties of the President of the Board of Trade by the warmth of our support, because some hon. Members opposite might think that anything supported by us must have a catch in it somewhere. I can assure them that I thought rather the same when I saw the names attached to their Amendment. I hope, however, that the House will not decide this question by looking at the names of the people on the one side or the other. The President of the Board of Trade has put before us a plain and businesslike proposition which I think the House ought to accept, and those who are alarmed by seeing Socialist and Liberal support given to a Bill of this kind can at least reflect that there are more responsible sponsors for the Bill. The Bill has come to us from another place, where, I have no doubt, it was under very careful consideration by those who were alive to all the kinds of considerations which are foremost in their minds. I do regard this as proper work for a National Government to do. I think that the National Government is doing to-day what some of us were inclined to think it was refusing to do only yesterday, that is to say that it is to-day making a wise and far-sighted effort to secure national wealth for national use. For that reason I and my friends support the Bill. We hope it will be passed. Then it will only remain to discover a little petroleum.
  4.40 p.m.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add "upon this day three months."
  I would like, on behalf of the Government of which I am a supporter, to thank the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) and the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. K. Griffith) for the support they have given to the Bill, and I have no doubt that the two Radical land-taxers who represent this Bill on the Front Bench are very pleased at their new alliance with the official Opposition.

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  I myself am a keen supporter of the National Government, but I am not quite sure how far these alliances are helpful to its continued existence. The hon. Member for West Middlesbrough said he wondered what the effect on the development of our coal seams would have been if coal had remained in the hands of the Crown. There is very little difficulty in finding out. There is coal in the hands of the Crown to-day in the Forest of Dean. That is Crown property. It is without exception the worst laid out and the worst conducted coalfield in the country.
  Mr. G. HALL: It does not pay royalties, anyhow.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: But the hon. Member is quite satisfied apparently; he does not mind how badly a coalfield is laid out and how distressing the conditions may be, so long as no loyalty is paid. I am afraid that my light hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who introduced this Bill, will think that I am taking up a rather ungracious attitude in opposing it when he has taken the trouble to insert in it a special provision exempting my family and our oil well, from its operation. I rather feel that I am biting the hand which fed me. But there are questions of principle involved in this Bill, and I feel bound to oppose it, although justice has been done to me in particular.
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: In inserting that provision in the Schedule, I had no consideration as to whether I disliked or liked anyone. I was only doing what I thought was common justice.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I quite appreciate that, and I was not suggesting that this was a personal favour. But there are certain advantages in one's position. I think I am the only Member of this House who has had practical firsthand experience of drilling for oil in England. I am to-day the owner, or a member of the firm which is the owner, of the only oil-producing well. The hon. Member for Aberdare asks whether anything has been done with the licence owned by my family. The answer is "Yes." We sank a very considerable amount of capital in sinking two wells to a considerable depth. We found data which are of very considerable value, but we discontinued drilling, partly because
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  the costs were very great and the price of oil at the time was very low, but much more because coal is being worked in that same neighbourhood. The difficulties of an underground manager are great enough already without people boring holes for oil through the strata which he is working. It is necessary to leave a pillar of coal about 2½ acres in extent around each drilling, and that makes working for oil absolutely impossible. As the coal is a certainty and the oil is not, and the coal will be worked in a comparatively few years, we decided to suspend drilling until such time as the seams are exhausted. That is the answer to the hon. Member's question. We have obtained certain results which are of value for the future.
  My opposition to the Bill is based on three main grounds. The first is that it is wrong and bad in principle, in that it is a return to the old, vicious system of Royal monopolies, against which Parliament fought for 200 years before it was finally successful. Secondly, it must tend to make the ownership of land less attractive that it has been in the past, must tend to diminish the sense of security in ownership of land, and thus to diminish the flow of capital into the land, which is essential if the agricultural policy of the Government is to succeed. It will, therefore, have a definitely bad effect on the agricultural policy of the Government. The third objection is that as an oil policy it is definitely wrong, is obstructive rather than constructive, is absolutely unnecessary, and is going to have the effect—indeed, has already had the effect as I shall be able to show—much more of delaying and impeding the search for oil than of promoting it.
  Since the beneficent advent of the National Government my interventions in Debate have been few and very brief, but this is a very big subject, and one about which, I say it with all diffidence, I do not know a great deal, and therefore I hope the House will bear with me in making a speech of almost intolerable tedium, because I have an enormous amount of ground to cover. First, I will deal briefly with the position of Royal monopolies. Hon. Members have talked of this new Bill as though it contained some new principle. Nothing could be further from the facts. These Royal monopolies are as old as English history. Parliament struggled against them for

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  centuries, not because it was opposed to the Crown, but because these monopolies were found in actual practice to be an almost intolerable restraint upon legitimate trade; as I believe this monopoly will be found to be if the House is rash enough to grant it to the Government.
  There was a four days' Debate in this House on the subject of Royal monopolies in 1601. As a result, Queen Elizabeth adopted an extremely conciliatory attitude. She made a very amiable address to the House, she promised to grant no more monopolies, and even to withdraw those which were already in existence. Having created a favourable atmosphere she, as might be expected, waited until the excitement died down down and then did exactly the same as before. The Royal monopolies went on until they were finally abolished in 1660. They were made illegal in 1624 and another Act was passed in 1641, and in 1660 Parliament finally believed it had disposed for ever of these Royal monopolies. The Act declared that they were finished for ever. As I say, that was not because Pariament was opposed to the Crown, or hostile to granting them to the Crown, but because these monopolies did tend to restrict trade to such an intolerable extent. I would like to quote from one speech in the Debate of 1601. Mr. Lawrence Hide said:
  "I confess, Mr. Speaker, that I owe duty to God and loyalty to my Prince. And for the Bill itself I made it and I think I understand it: and far be it from this heart of mine to think, this tongue to speak, or this hand to write anything, either in prejudice or derogation of Her Majesty's prerogative Royal and the State … And, Mr. Speaker, as I think it is no derogation to the omnipotency of God, to say that he can do no ill, so I think it is no derogation to the person or Majesty of the Queen to say so."
  And this from another speech:
  "Out of the spirit of humility, Mr. Speaker, I do speak it: there is no act of hers that hath been or is more derogatory to her own Majesty, or more odious to the subject or more dangerous to the commonwealth than the granting of these monopolies."
  In that day loyal Members were prepared to grant the Queen revenues, but decided that the monopoly system had led to a restriction of trade. Now we have this system advocated as a new Measure, as a progressive development, whereas all we are doing in fact is to
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  put back the hands of the clock some 300 years.
  My second point I can deal with nearly as briefly, though it is one of very great importance, having regard to the agricultural policy which the Government are pursuing. The Government have embarked, and rightly and wisely embarked, on a far-reaching scheme of agricultural reconstruction. They have adopted a policy based on the view that as a nation we cannot allow our agriculture to fall further into decay, that the rot must be arrested even at the risk of raising prices to consumers. In some directions that policy has met with a certain amount of success; in others it has not yet been fully successful. In the case of meat and milk it may yet prove that the climate and the seasons will do more to raise agricultural prices than all the appointed persons and marketing schemes and boards of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture. But there is the deliberate agricultural policy of the Government, and it has the overwhelming support of this House. My submission is that it is quite useless to adopt a policy with the object of restoring prosperity to agricultures if at the same time we adopt a policy which will make the ownership of land more onerous, risky and speculative, and hence diminish the flow of capital into the land. For a long time past the prosperity of agriculture has depended very largely on the capacity of the land to attract capital to it.
  For years past possessors of capital have been willing, for various reasons, to accept a lower rate of interest on money invested in land than was available from other investments, and that has been of immense value to agriculture. A Bill of this kind, which takes away, or tends to take away, the possibility of rises in value must tend to make land very much less attractive than it has been in the past, and if it does hinder the flow of capital into the land it will do a great disservice to agriculture. The first essential of a successful scheme of agriculture is that people should be willing to put money into land, and be willing to maintain it there, as they have done in the past, even with a lower rate of interest than they could get from other securities. One of the main reasons which has accounted for the fact that until recently land has not been without capital is that the possession of land has given a great

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  sense of security. Land has had various values which have accounted for the willingness of capital to accept a low return. There is the amenity value and the sporting value, and, until quite recently, the ownership of land conferred a certain social status. Some of those causes operate to-day and some do not.
  The main reason why capital has always been available to finance the farming of the land has been the feeling of security and the fact that the ownership of land was absolute. The old saying "Land cannot run away" was responsible for the fact that the country gentleman was prepared to go on sinking money in his land, putting in drains and financing agriculture in the countless ways in which an agricultural landlord does, because he did feel that he was secure. This Bill, even by itself, must do a great deal to damage that sense of security. The hon. Gentleman opposite made it quite clear that this Bill would be regarded as a precedent. Hon. Members opposite must always go further than we do. They will come into office at some time or other, and they are bound to go a great deal further than we propose to go in this Bill, and it is certain that further attacks on the very existence of property as an institution will be based upon this Bill. It is a perfectly natural and perfectly understandable feeling on the part of hon. Members opposite, and is shared to some extent by hon. Members on this side of the House, that while an owner may have a perfect right to his surface value, he is not justly entitled to the accidental values not created by himself, or to mineral values the very existence of which he did not know about until a few months ago. That feeling is shared by a great many people. I am not going to argue that point now. It was the feeling at the back of the increment duty introduced before the War which did such an enormous damage to housing and accounts for the fact that to-day thousands of people are without houses who otherwise would have them.
  If we take away from the ownership of land every hope of increment and leave only the certainty that there will be outgoings, which oh an agricultural estate must always, in these days, exceed the income, we may well produce a state of affairs in which no one will be left to sink money in the land, and if we do that
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  the condition of agriculture will be vastly worse than it is to-day. If the Government do produce conditions of that kind, under which no one will be willing to bear the onus of owning agricultural land, I believe that even a Socialist Government will come to realise that they have bitten off more than they can chew. I am sorry to have spent so much time on that point, but it is one which has not been fully realised, and it ought to be brought out in view of the fact that the Government are doing a great deal to try to restore prosperity to agriculture, which is a very important consideration.
  We come to the third and by far the most serious objection. I object to the Bill on the ground of principle, but I object to it far more as one who has been engaged in the practical search for oil, and getting it, on the ground of its probable effect upon the production of petroleum in England. My right hon. Friend told the House that this was a Bill to promote and expedite the search for oil in England, and that that search could not be made under the most favourable conditions unless this Bill were passed. What are the facts? In a written answer to me about a month or so ago my hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines stated that no fewer than five applications to bore for oil had been held up by the introduction of this Bill. Those applications were made on varying dates, some going as far back as 18 months. Some licences had been refused before the introduction of this Bill, but these five had been held up by the introduction of the Bill. Pending the introduction of this Bill it had been decided to grant no further licences. For many years, since an effort which was made towards the end of the War, little or no interest had been taken in the search for oil in this country by individual capitalists or by the Government. Then five people come along and ask for licences.
  As the House may know, no one can bore for oil without a licence from the Government. Five people asked for leave to bore, and the Government refused leave, and for reasons which they will not tell me. I asked my hon. Friend why he refused the licences, and he would not say. But all the licences were refused and the Government now come to the House and say they must have this further Bill before the search for oil can be made. The information for which I ask is in-

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  formation which, the House has a right to have before it goes on with the discussion of the Bill. There is some mystery in this matter. The House has not yet been told what is the real reason for the introduction of this Bill. The reason which my right hon. Friend adduced, that it will promote and expedite the search for oil, definitely falls to the ground. My own well, the only oil-producing well in this country, Hardstoft No. 1, struck oil almost exactly seven months after I formally started the machinery. I believe the drillers had drilled some few feet before the formal opening, the "spudding in," as it is called, but it is roughly correct to say that oil was found at 3,077 feet seven months after they first started. Some of these applications for licences which the Government have held up are more than seven months old, and it is true to say that if it had not been for the deliberately obstructive attitude taken up by the Government we might know at this moment whether oil existed in those places or not. The House has a right to further information on that point.
  The Government have also said that that the Bill is necessary in order that proper control may be exercised over such drilling as may take place, and that without the Bill we might get reckless or wasteful exploitation, such as occurred in some parts of America, or we might get an unnecessary destruction of the amenities of the countryside. Again, I believe there is no shadow of foundation for that contention. As the House has already been told, under the law as it stands to-day nobody may bore for oil without a licence from the Government, and that licence may be issued to cover such area and with such conditions as the Government think fit. Nothing in the world, I am afraid, will ever prevent a successful oil field from being an eye-sore but if regulation can do it the Government have the power now. I wonder how much the Members of the Cabinet knew about these facts when they decided to introduce the Bill. I am sorry that the Lord President of the Council is not here. I wonder whether he knew of these facts when the Cabinet decided to embark on this legislation. We are told that the Bill was considered necessary in order that oil might be searched for. Did the
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  right hon. Gentleman know that a Department of the Government was deliberately holding up five applications for licences to search for oil?
  My hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines in his reply to me suggested that in some cases these licences could not go through because the leases had not been completed. That may be so in some cases but in the cases which have been brought to my notice the leases had been signed sealed and delivered and the whole thing was complete. All that was wanted was the Government's permission and that was deliberately withheld. Did the Government know that an existing licence could be used to cover any area which the licence holder thought fit? I agree that some measure of control is necessary but the reasons which have been adduced by the Government, are, for the most part, entirely fallacious. The existing licence system gives very full power of control indeed and if the Government really desire that oil should be searched for all they want to do is to be a little less sticky about the issue of licences and the matter will look after itself very well.
  I think I have shown to the House that, so far from promoting the search for oil, the Government's action has been definitely holding up that search. I think I have also shown that the licence system gives full power for the exercise of that control which we all admit to be necessary. But another reason has been given for the Bill which might carry more weight with hon. Members, especially those on this side. It is said that petroleum cannot be treated like an ordinary mineral, because it is fluid and migrates from place to place. There is something in that point, but very little. It is suggested that owner A on whose land oil has been discovered, may drain the oil from the lands of owners B, C and D in the immediate neighbourhood and that A may get all the value while B, C and D get nothing. In order to meet that difficulty the Government propose to say to owner A, "We shall pinch your oil too." That is not a very satisfactory way of dealing with the suggested difficulty, but, actually, there is no legal difficulty at all. As the law stands, the oil discovered on a man's land is his oil and neighbouring owners have no rights.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that supposing oil were discovered in Rut-

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  land, the exploiting company would have to deal, not only with the landowner on whose property the well was situated, but with, I think he said, thousands of other owners in that county. That, if I may say so, is the purest balderdash. It is utter bunkum. The land of Rutland, as far as I know, is not essentially different from that of the neighbouring county of Derbyshire where we are, to-day, getting oil about a quarter of a mile from the boundary of our property and no difficulty of any sort or kind, legal or otherwise, has arisen and I am advised on the best authority that the suggested legal difficulty simply does not exist. It is only the man on whose land the oil rises who is the owner of the oil. Other owners might conceivably think that they had a grievance and this House might think that they had a moral grievance if oil could be drained from considerable areas, but the short answer is that oil does not drain from any considerable area.
  The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Our Number 2 and Number 3 wells are both situated within 200 yards of our Number 1 well. The Number 1 well has been producing oil for 15 years, but neither Number 2 well nor Number 3 well has ever produced one gallon of oil. It is not the case that the oil will go to the well. The well has to be dug down to the oil. There are exceptions, but, speaking generally, the migrating power of oil is very limited, ranging from about 100 feet up to—in exceptional conditions—as much as 1,000 feet, which does not represent a very large area. The idea of oil percolating over a great area is unfounded. I wonder whether we shall learn in this Debate who told the Government all these things.
  There are solid reasons for control, but they are not those which the Government have so far advanced. They are reasons which cannot be explained in a short time, and if hon. Members are not satisfied upon this question I would urge them to investigate the matter for themselves. They can go to the Science Museum at South Kensington and inspect plans and diagrams of the lay-out of existing oilfields. I wonder, incidentally, if the Members of the Cabinet in considering this Bill knew of the existing practice in Trinidad. There no question of owner ship can arise because the oil is Government owned, and there to-day wells are
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  being sunk no more than 30 yards apart. So they are in Russia, where, again, no difficulties about property can arise. You cannot bore for oil in the middle of a town, and the number of areas outside a town where ownerships are less than 30 yards in extent must, therefore, be very small, and, as I have said, the difficulty does not really arise. But, even supposing that it did arise and even supposing that this House did show an extraordinary tenderness for the rights of property, to try to solve the difficulty by saying that you will bag A's oil as well as the oil of the neighbouring owners does not seem to offer much prospect of giving any real assistance.
  I repeat that there are definite and solid reasons why the control of oil development is desirable, and I hope the House will bear with me if I try to explain to some extent the conditions under which oil may be expected. There are various theories about the origin of natural oil, but the one generally held is that it is the product of the fleshy parts of those marine creatures whose boney parts—shells and skeletons—have made up the rock" which we know to-day as limestone all over the world. In the process of formation the oil production was probably not continuous. While the main part of the limestone in our own country was being formed or was being laid down the conditions were unfavourable for the production of oil. They were open-sea conditions. Towards the end of the process of the formation the sea changed its nature owing to disturbances of the land, and possibly owing to the breakdown somewhere else of a glacial period, with the result that the process of limestone formation was arrested and the sea bottom became covered with a layer of mud or clay. I have here some specimens which, perhaps, hon. Members would like to see. I have here, in the first place, a specimen of our oil which is of very high quality. I have also a specimen of the kind of rock formation which may be expected to produce oil, and if the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade will take these two specimens and knock them together he will find that even now they give out a distinct odour of petroleum.
  The thory is that when the limestone formation was brought to an end there

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  was a deposit of mud or clay of some sort on the top, under conditions which bottled up, as it were, in these forming rocks a certain amount of the organic remains of these marine creatures, and by a process known as selective putrefaction these special conditions gave rise to what we find to-day. This is what happened millions of years ago. Other rocks covered that formation—in Derby shire the whole range of the coal measures—and in most cases these rocks became folded into the formations which are the hills and valleys of to-day.
  I am sorry to have detained the House so long on this subject but it is important as bearing on this question of flowing oil because what concerns the petroleum technologist is not so much whether oil has been there but whether it has been kept in position there. In the Pennine Range we have the necessary conditions for oil formation but the rocks are so much fissured that it is almost certain that the oil has escaped millions of years ago. The petroleum seeker is concerned to find not whether oil was ever there or not but whether there is a stratum securely sealing it up and capable of holding it. Without those conditions even if there were any oil there it would not be commercially exploitable. Far from it being the case that the oil flows freely from place to place, it is the case that unless the oil is securely imprisoned and immobile and has been so for millions of years, it is not commercially exploitable.
  I drew a diagram this morning which may help to give the House an idea of the simplest and most ideal form of oil-bearing structure. You nearly always have gas on the top measure and almost invariably you find that below there is water sealing in the oil. This is where control is necessary and where there is necessity for the unitary development of a given oil bearing area in order to get the oil to the best advantage. If this gas top is drilled harm is done to the whole of the oil field. The oil itself will not flow for a great distance but the gas pressure can be distributed over a considerable area and the wasteful tapping of that gas can do definite and irremediable damage. Again, tapping near the top where the oil is highly charged with gas can also do harm. For some reason gas dissolved in oil, dissolved gas as it is called, has a greater effect
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  upon oil than free gas and to contract the gas-containing oil in a given area diminishes the fluid mobility of the whole body of oil in a given reservoir. Therefore, control is very necessary but that control can be efficiently exercised through the existing licence system.
  I have here another diagram giving a representation of the same oil-bearing structure as seen from above which will enable hon. Members to understand the position of the gas charged oil which had better not be drilled. My argument is that licences can be issued to cover a field of that kind. These areas are not enormous. We talk of them as being very large but a grant of 2,000 acres in Trinidad the other day was important enough to be mentioned in almost every paper dealing with oil. These areas as I say are not large and even though you should get divided ownership on one structure the difficulty is by no means insuperable and if any grievance does exist it ought not to pass the wit of man to frame measures for dealing with it. There has been some difficulty in America but there must always be difficulties where oil is actually being got. Where oil production has not begun there is no real difficulty. In America they are much more tender for the rights of property than we are here, and the ordinary royalty there ranges from the sixth to the eighth barrel, while the highest I have ever heard suggested here is 2s. and what is more normally contemplated is 9d. In America the owner of land gets a sixth or an eighth of the gross value of the oil from his land. While those rights are in existence, obviously very great difficulty arises, much greater difficulty than would arise herein allocating oil ownership. Oil does not actually flow very far. Anyone who is extremely tender for the rights of property might maintain that an owner whose oil is not got because getting it would be injurious to the whole oilfield might hold that such an owner is entitled to compensation, but I do not think that Parliament need concern itself much with that difficulty. It is a fact that on Government land in Trinidad, where no property rights arise, wells to-day are being sunk 30 yards apart. In Russia, where again no question of oil property can arise, wells are being sunk which are almost touching each other. This sort of thing is going on, and oil is being successfully got all over the country with the

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  wells much closer than the right hon. Gentleman led the House to believe.
  What becomes of the Government's case for the Bill? It is not necessary to have a survey made. It is not necessary to secure control. The licence system provides ample opportunity for control. It is not wanted in order to deal with the alleged proprietary difficulties; they do not really exist. What is the real reason? The House is entitled to very much more information than has been given. We know little about the object of the Bill. We know that it was not introduced as a result of any public demand. There has been no Press agitation demanding a Bill of this kind. Until the Bill came on I did not know of a public demand of any sort. I would hazard the suggestion that the Bill did not originate spontaneously from the Cabinet. It may be the case—I do not know—that the Prime Minister may have come down one morning and said, "Well, boys, we have conquered unemployment, we have solved the Disarmament problem, all the milk and meat farmers are happy, everything is OK., and there is nothing whatever to do except to bring in a Bill to deal with any oil which may be found in England." That is possibly an explanation of this Bill, but I would hazard a guess that it was not the right one. I believe that someone has been talking to the Government about the Bill, and I should like to know who it is. Has the right hon. Gentleman or his Department or the Government been in communication with any oil company operating in any part of the world about this Bill? The House is entitled to an answer to that question before it goes on with the Bill.
  I beg of the Government to proceed cautiously in this matter. I would remind them that the greatest scandal which has ever taken place in connection with oil has not been the recklessly competitive development in Texas and other parts of America but the "Teapot Dome" scandal—where the oil and the land alike belonged to the Government. That broke the Harding regime in America and led to the death of the President and the flight or arrest of most of his friends. I hope that we shall not get into that position in this country, but we are dealing with very serious matters. I would remind the House that the Bill not only confers upon the Crown a monopoly of
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  property in oil, but it also confers upon a Government Department, working in conditions of complete secrecy, the right to withhold concessions which may be worth many millions of pounds. It is true that the Government have to give particulars in public of what concessions are granted to anyone, but there is no publicity of any kind about the withholding of concessions. That is difficult and dangerous ground. We ought to know what is really at the back of the Bill before we decide to proceed with it. I have told my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council my reasons—and they are weighty and serious reasons—for believing that things are not as they should be in connection with the introduction of the Bill. I beg of them to take that warning in time.
  I shall be bound to divide the House on this Bill in any case, even though I get very little support, but meanwhile I venture to put a suggestion to the Government that they refer the Bill to a Select Committee. I know that that is an unusual course, especially in view of the fact that the Bill has already been discussed elsewhere. It is not a party Bill, but one dependent upon a great mass of technical details. These details ought to be considered by a committee which can hear the evidence in a judicial and an impartial way. It would really be impossible, I believe, for the House to deal with the details pi this Bill in Committee of the House. It would make it really impossible to get a proper thrashing out of the details of the Bill which is very necessary. I know that the Government do not want to use their great powers to do anything which they should not do. I believe that there is a grave risk of their doing something very wrong indeed and something which we may regret for generations if they do not give the Bill greater consideration than has been the case up to now. Even upstairs in Committee the party system must prevail to some extent and you cannot get the judicial kind of consideration which is desirable in a technical Bill of this kind. I do not want a drawn-out Bill, and if it goes upstairs in Committee I shall not attempt to kill the Bill by time. I think that a far better system would be that the Bill should be considered by a Select Committee upstairs.
  Mr. K. GRIFFITH: A Select Committee is not judicial.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I hope that this House is not incapable of creating a committee if we are not in conjunction with another place, in which we might get back to the idea of the judicial committees of the past. I put that consideration to the Government. We are dealing with very important matters of principle, and of policy and expediency besides. I, therefore, suggest to the Government that the Bill should be considered by a Select Committee, and meanwhile I beg to move the Amendment.
  5.25 p.m.
  Mr. M. BEAUMONT: I beg to second the Amendment.
  I am hampered in seconding the rejection of the Bill by not having at my disposal the knowledge and erudition of the Noble Lord who has delivered such a weighty indictment against the Measure, but there are certain considerations which I would put to the House and which I would like to reinforce by specific questions to the Government. I agree with the Noble Lord that we have had nothing like enough information in respect of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade skated very lightly over some very important points when he was making his introductory speech. He told us that the present system did not work, and the only evidence he gave us of it was a statement about the county of Rutland, which, I think, on reflection, even he will regard as considerably exaggerated. He told us that there was a need for the Bill, but he did not tell us why, and no solid reason has yet been adduced why the Bill has been presented. There is no question whatever that there is considerable anxiety about the matter both inside and outside this House. If there has been a recrudesence of interest in the finding of oil, we should like to know why and what evidence there is of such recrudesence.
  The right hon. Gentleman has said that it was the present law which prevented the proper examination and investigation of the question of boring for oil. I am informed, on the contrary, that it is the extreme improbability of finding it which is really at the back of the search for oil. The fact that a very careful geo-
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  logical survey of this country shows that there is oil only in very small quantities and in a very small number of places, is really at the bottom of the fact that there has been no widespread search in this country. If the Government have any reason to believe that the geological information has been adequate, before this Measure is passed we have a right to know the facts. The hon. Member says that it is not Socialism. I think he is right. Socialism is nationalisation in the presumed interest of the country. We are afraid that this is confiscation in favour of the oil interests, and on that we want re-assurance before we pass the Measure. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman what is being freely said both inside and outside this House, namely, that the oil interests have reason to believe that at a lower strata than that hitherto examined, there are large quantities of oil, and that they are holding a pistol to the head of the Government, using the argument of the desirability of developing oil in order to give a larger profit to themselves by removing the royalty. That is being freely said.
  The right hon. Gentleman, when he spoke, said, "Trust the Government." I cannot imagine that there is any hon. Member of the House who would suggest that the Government would knowingly be a party to anything that was improper. The Secretary for Mines says that I am doing it. I am doing no such thing. I assure the Secretary for Mines that I do not suggest for a moment that the Government would knowingly give way to those interests. I want to be assured that they have taken steps to assure themselves that there is nothing going on behind the scenes. That is what I am asking. I have sufficient faith not only in this Government but in any other Government not to believe that they would be influenced by any outside interest, but I have not sufficient faith in anybody's judgment not to believe that on occasion they may be hoodwinked and misled by powerful interests. I want a statement from the Minister that he is quite certain he has made every possible investigation and is satisfied that nothing of that sort is taking place. I should definitely like a statement from him of reasons that make the Bill necessary and a refutation of the arguments put by my Noble Friend, in which he says—and I

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  must say that although my information is not drawn from such expert knowledge it agrees with his—that as far as is known the present system works perfectly well, and is adequate.
  I want to turn to a point which was more lightly touched upon by my Noble Friend, and that is the, question of amenities. It is an interesting coincidence that the present Secretary for Mines was. connected some few years ago with the promotion of a Bill which, he said, was to safeguard amenities, and which we believed safeguarded nothing, but high rates and quick ribbon development. My Noble Friend and I were associated in opposition to that Bill, and I believe results have proved that we were fully justified. Now the Minister produces a Bill which must have a very deleterious effect upon the question of amenities. He will reply that there is in the Bill a provision that the Railway and Canal Commission in granting a licence shall have regard to local interests.
  Let me put this question. What representations will it be possible to make to the Railway and Canal Commission, and how much will questions of amenities weigh against the pressure of those who have a licence? It may be that local authorities will be able to make representations, but some of us hold that local authorities are by no means the very best people to safeguard amenities. I want to know whether local residents, owners of property, will have an opportunity of making representations at any inquiry? I also want to know on what ground he believes that the Bill is going to increase facilities for seeking oil? There is one thing which you are certain to get, every owner of property, as far as he is personally concerned, will be resolutely opposed to allowing anybody to investigate the question of oil on his property. Once it is found he is in this position, that he may be compelled to sell to the licence holder a small portion of his property, I agree at a fair price, the value of the land plus 10 per cent. for compulsory purchase; but once he has sold it, it may be only a field, the operations of the oil company in that neighbourhood will make the whole of his property perfectly untenable and he has to sit there while the character of his home is changed, the district made
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  horrible and large fortunes made by other people out of his property.
  Mr. HOLDSWORTH: Will the hon. Member explain where the position for the landowner is made worse by the Bill? Is there not an added protection given by the Bill?
  Mr. BEAUMONT: The difference is simple. Under the Bill he is deprived of the extra compensaton which he gets now by royalties. At the present moment he gets royalties, which may be some slight compensation for the disturbance he has to suffer. He is to be deprived of that, not for the benefit of the State, but for the benefit of other people. That is neither justice nor common sense. It is going to place owners of property almost unanimously in opposition, doing their best to prevent the necessary investigations to see whether oil is there or not. I do not want to weary the House at this stage and I will conclude by emphasising the reasons which have been so ably given by my Noble Friend against the Bill. I believe the Bill to be unnecessary, inequitable, unreasonable, and against every principle of justice and property for which I at any rate have always stood, and if no hon. Member goes with me into the Division Lobby I shall nevertheless oppose the Bill now and at every other stage.
  5.34 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir ARNOLD WILSON: Few of us when we entered the House this afternoon expected that we should listen to such an extraordinarily interesting disquisition on the demerits and merits of the Bill as we have heard from the Noble Lord the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington). It would really have done credit to the field or general manager of an oil company. I was deeply interested by his explanation of the geology of the question but may I say as one who has been the manager of an oil company and has had some connection with the legal side of the oil industry that his arguments are not of universal application. I was recently in Germany and visited one of the oilfields. I was told that it was necessary for them to acquire rights over two or three thousand different holdings before they could proceed with the developments on the salt domes. The question of gas pressure is not quite so simple as I think the Noble Lord would

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  suggest. He took us back in his historical research to William the Conqueror. I will not go as far back as that, but I would point out that an Act of Edward I, passed in, 1287, known as the Apex Law, gave to those who sought for tin and lead the right, if they discovered it on one piece of land, to follow it on land belonging to other owners, subject only to compensation for surface rights, in order to give the discoverer the full fruits of his labour.
  This Bill is not an unfair analogy. Its object is not to introduce Socialism or nationalisation but to enable private enterprise to benefit from the results of its own initiative. The hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) suggested that the Government should invest money in the search for oil. I would remind him that so far only two Governments have done so and in each case with disastrous results. The Australian Government spent £500,000 or more money and lost it; the Government of Argentina spent many millions of pounds, and to the best of my knowledge have never made one penny. In this country His Fajesty's Government have spent £500,000 or more and again got nothing. I do not think it would be a good way of investing any further surplus which may accrue to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The main justification for the Bill is that suggested or rather inferred by the President of the Board of Trade; the danger of offsetting. Under the present law it is impossible to prevent one landowner from putting up wells all round the edges of his neighbour's land. This is offsetting and it is terribly wasteful. America has become a byword for wastefulness for it has proved impossible to control production there—
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I am reluctant to interrupt the hon. and gallant Member but in my own case I am prevented from sinking any well within 100 yards of the boundary.
  Sir A. WILSON: One hundred yards is certainly much more than the average. One hundred feet is much more general in America and I should certainly object if I were in the position of the Noble Lord.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I should have said feet.
  Sir A. WILSON: One hundred feet may be ample, it depends on circumstances. I submit that the Bill is justified by all experience in America. The Noble Lord spoke of the danger of royal monopolies. I have had some experience of obtaining concessions in foreign countries where royal monopoly actually exists, as in Argentina, in Spain, in Venezuela and Colombia, and I confess that there has been very little dishonesty or corruption, as far as I know, in regard to the administration of royal monopolies. It has been possible to lay out and plan in advance the general structure in a way which has certainly redounded to the credit of those responsible. The greatest and most successful oilfields in the world are those which have been started under the egis of a royal monopoly. The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. M. Beaumont) referred to the question of amenities. I think that question can be overstressed. The greatest of all amenities is livelihood, and there is no step we should not be willing to take in order to secure a livelihood for our own people from our own land. From my own personal knowledge there are practical difficulties which arise from the absence of any definite system of control or licence. The provisions of the 1918 Act were made exceptionally unattractive to anyone who desired to go further in the matter. Licences could have been granted, but in fact nobody asked for them until very recently. Let me revert to the question of amenities. I have been connected with oil produced in California and Colombia, where so far from agricultural interests being damaged very little damage indeed was done to the soil other than in the immediate vicinity of the bore hole. The odour that arises from petroleum is not so serious as to interfere with the raising of cattle. I think the hon. Member rather overstressed that point.
  I have a strong conviction that without this Bill there is no possibility of progress. It is not to be supposed that anyone expects to find great oilfields in England. The German Government during the heat of the War made desperate efforts to find oil, but were only able to produce some 130,000 or 150,000 tons. There is reason to think, according to geological theory, that the strata beneath England is not dissimilar to the strata

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  beneath Germany. We have that at least in common with Germany. The difficulties which arose in Germany were largely the same difficulties which arise in this country to-day, the necessity of dealing with great numbers of smallholdings. The German Government under its present constitution finds it impossible to stimulate oil production by subsidies or grants because of the practical difficulty of getting permits from the various landholders, and after 20 years they have only doubled their production, which is now in the neighbourhood of 350,000 tons. This is being used to produce lubricants. We can produce most of the petrol we require from coal, but we cannot produce an excellent lubricating oil from coal. When we get oil it will be used to produce lubricants, and will be of the greatest value to national safety.
  Government control abroad in the oil industry has not had the results which the Noble Lord suggested. In my experience it has been reasonable and free from corruption, and I rather resent the reference to the "Teapot Dome" scandal in connection with England's green and pleasant land. I do not think it was worthy of the occasion. As for the insecurity of agricultural land, I do not think that argument should be taken very seriously. The possible areas of England are very little limited, and the probability that any large area will be involved in oil is exceedingly small. When in foreign countries private properties are appropriated in order to produce oil-fields, they do not in practice, as was suggested by the hon. Member for Aylesbury, take a few fields and leave the rest The invariable practice is to buy a whole estate. I do not feel nervous, in the light of my experience, of the prospect of Government officials acting unreasonably or arbitrarily in such matters. I feel that we have a far better chance from our own officials than I have ever had in my own business experience abroad from officials of foreign countries, and I earnestly and confidently commend the Bill to the House, and hope that it will have a fair passage.
  5.46 p.m.
  Mr. TINKER: I am in a curious position to-day, for I am supporting a Measure that has come from the House of Lords and which is opposed by the scion of a noble family. I have always believed that nothing useful to the community
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  could come from the Lords, but on this occasion they have brought in a Measure which we on this side are bound to support. I suppose that they are seeing ahead of their time, that they realise this is a national need, that somehow or other we shall acquire oil, and that they want the nation to take charge of it. They are far-seeing and wise in adopting the attitude they have. I am rather curious to know how the opposition to the Bill has developed. I must thank the Noble Lord who moved the rejection of the Bill for his lesson in geology. Although I have attended mining schools, he gave me an outline in the finding of oil of which I had no knowledge at all. I did not know how oil had developed and he has told us the theory as to the formation of oil deposits. I can, however, see nothing else good in what he has told us. He seems to be very narrow-minded in his attitude to the whole of this question. He first told us that there was little or no hope of any oil being found in this country, and that therefore it was hardly worth while the Government taking any control at all. Then he went on to say that the people who had possession of land were entitled to all the values that might be found underneath, and that unless they had that right we should see very little land bought or owned. That is to say, people would not own land if they knew that they would be deprived of something of which there was very little hope, and, because of that, they would get away from the land and have nothing to do with it. When that time comes it will be a good thing for this country, for the land and land values will then pass into the control of the State, and we shall be a step nearer Socialism.
  We have always heard from the other side about the integrity of the House of Lords. This afternoon hon. Members opposite have criticised the House of Lords for having adopted a Measure like this. They said in a sense that the House of Lords had no control over passing this Measure for they were merely the handmaidens of somebody behind the scenes, and that they had been forced to bring in a Measure in which they did not believe. That is a sad reflection on the House of Lords. I hope that when the Noble Lord ultimately gets there he will examine his speech to-day and see what he has said about it. He said, in effect, what we have always

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  said about the hereditary principle, that it should have no place in the Constitution, that it ought not to govern us, and that it really had no voice at all. The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. M. Beaumont) challenged the President of the Board of Trade for concealing something and asked him to give the whole story. It is a grave matter for Government supporters to come out with remarks like that. The hon. Member said that someone behind the scenes, some oil magnate or someone else was pulling the strings behind the Government and forcing their hands.
  Mr. M. BEAUMONT: I know that the hon. Member does not wish to misrepresent me, and it may be that I did not make myself clear on this point, but I would like to do so. I did not suggest for a moment that the Government are having strings pulled by those interested. I did suggest that it is possible that they are being misled by those interested.
  Mr. TINKER: I have heard the hon. Member very often and his speeches are always very clear and show that he thinks a position out Very well. I heard him last week on the Mosley episode, and when he says anything it is well thought out. I hope that he will read what he said about the Government. He inferred that the Government were being driven by somebody behind the scenes. If he did not, why did he demand the whole story? What is the whole story? It must be something that the Government have not brought out and to say that to a Minister of the Crown, who, after all, does make clear and definite statements, is a sad reflection on Members of the National Government. If it had come from this side there would have been a howl from hon. Members opposite. It has come from two hon. Members on the other side who occupy high positions, and I hope the Minister will deal with them in the manner in which they ought to be dealt with.
  The President of the Board of Trade said that the landowners ought not to claim oil that came from their estates, and he gave certain sound reasons. I maintain that no landowner has any right to oil found under his land, and that it is a matter for State control. The Noble Lord argued that deposits that were laid
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  down millions of years ago should in the twentieth century belong to the individuals who happened to own the land under which the deposits existed. Surely what nature has done in times past does not belong to any particular mortal in this age. It ought to be used for the benefit of the whole community and not for any particular person because he happens to own a piece of land. Therefore, the Government are following on the right lines in this Bill. They recognise what is likely to happen and are now getting ready to arrange for State control of any oil that may be found. I wish it had been done many years ago in regard to coal. It would certainly have given us more satisfaction than what we are enjoying now.
  I strongly appreciate the provisions in this Measure dealing with amenities. I put a question to the Forestry Commissioners to-day dealing with this point. I asked whether the commissioners had any power to do anything with derelict parts of the country where collieries have closed down and left unsightly heaps. I was told that it was unprofitable to plant trees in such places, which meant that these unsightly heaps will have to continue for a long time. Where coal mines have been worked and coalowners have taken all the value from the land, they have left scars on the countryside, and the poor unfortunate people who cannot get away from them have to live as best they can near these spots. We have no power over the coalowners to make them do anything. The provisions in this Bill dealing with similar circumstances in connection with the finding of oil are very satisfactory. They mean that where oil is bored for, those who take the oil, namely, the State, will have to put the countryside back to its natural condition. That recognises that the people should have the benefit of that to which they are fully entitled. Up to the present, private enterprise has never thought of anything like that, and where factories and mines have been established there has been no question of the effect on the countryside. There are isolated cases, of course, just as there are good employers, but they are not many.
  No one can take objection to the State taking control, and no one on this side will object to what has come from the House of Lords in this instance. We are threatened with a Division and we are

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  interested to see what will happen. I do not think there will be any Division. The Noble Lord suggested a committee as a way out of voting against the Government, and the hon. Member for Aylesbury said that if the Noble Lord went to a Division he would follow him. I have heard that talk about Divisions before, and I do not think there will be one. The two hon. Members will regret what they have said when they read their speeches. We on these benches welcome the Bill, and I frankly take it as an instalment of Socialism. I was speaking to a Noble Lord not long ago, and he told me that in his opinion it was a step towards Socialism. It is not going the whole way, of course, but it puts into the hands of the State the power to take over what ought to be national property. Because of that, I shall support the Measure with my colleagues if it goes to a Division.
  5.59 p.m.
  Captain WATERHOUSE: I will tell the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) straight away that unless something un foreseen and very much hoped for happens, there will be a Division on this Bill. I should like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade on the cordial support he has received for the proposals of this Bill from the Leader of the Opposition, from the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. K. Griffith), and from the hon. Member for Leigh. I have always noticed that when matters involving real vital principles are raised in this House there is a curious tendency to cross vote. We on this side think that we are straight in our Conservative views, and hon. Members opposite that they are straight in their Socialist views. But when a direct issue arises there always occurs to some of us some reason why we should not be too Conservative, and to some of them why they should not be too Socialistic. On this particular occasion I propose to devote my remarks to only one main point in the Bill, that is, the first two or three lines of Sub-section (1) of Clause 1, which reads:
  "The property in petroleum existing in its natural condition … is hereby vested in His Majesty."
  It is as well, when we have to consider a major issue, that we should get as near as we can the basis on which we rest our principles. In this particular regard, we
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  have to decide for ourselves our position vis-a-vis the State.
  In this Island there were individuals long before there was a State. The State is the creature of the individual, and we are not the servants of the State. It is true that we have by common consent given the State very great powers, but we expect from the State very great duties; possibly the principal duty of the State is to protect the life, liberty and property—all three—of the subject of that State. It is only so long as we can be sure that those whom we put to govern us in the State are proceeding on those lines, that they have any right to call for our allegiance to the State. In giving the State those powers we have said, for example, that for certain misdemeanours we may lose our lives, our liberty or our property, and that if a certain eventuality arises we may be told categorically by the State that what we have considered our rights in the past may no longer be our rights in the future. We agree that property has great responsibilities and great duties as well as rights. If we had come to no agreement on those lines, the ownership of property would have been absolutely impossible in this country. So far we have never agreed that a specific section or type of property belonging to a small group of individuals should be confiscated without compensation and without appeal, and I, for one, will set my face as resolutely as I can against the inception of any such principle in this country.
  Now I turn to the question which was raised by the noble Lord the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) and which so intrigued the hon. Member for Leigh, which was as to why this Measure has suddenly become necessary. Why has this bolt from the blue descended on us from the House of Lords? What is behind it all? That, is what we want to know. My right hon. Friend who moved the Second Reading was not very convincing. It may have been that he felt that he had not a very good case, or that he felt that he had something that it was not desirable to disclose. If there is anything of that sort, let him come forward and say so. We are not prepared to press him to make disclosures which he thinks are not for the common welfare. If there is something there, either let him disclose it or let him say that the time is not

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  opportune to make any statement. Do not let him leave us with the feeling that pressure has been put upon him from some source, possibly because the British Government are very large shareholders in a large oil corporation. I do not know, but these questions are bound to arise when one gets this dreadful system of a State-owned trading company. We know that the British Government have the majority of shares in a certain oil corporation.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that we could not permit sporadic development throughout the country, and that we should have a general system. Let us see where we stand. It was only a few months ago that the Government introduced a Measure to back a great scheme for producing oil from coal which was generally welcomed by hon. Members opposite, as well as from this side. Many hon. Members opposite represent the coal mining districts, and are supporting a Bill for the development of the natural oil resources of the country. Have they thought what their position is to be before their coal-mining constituents? Are they going along to them and say, "We have decided that coal mining is becoming rather obsolete. We may get a certain amount of oil from coal, but it had better be got from crude oil. It will not benefit our constituents it is true, but we take a much broader view. If we can develop an oil field somewhere else it will be much better for the State as a whole and, therefore, you, for the moment at any rate, can lump it." Is that the attitude that they will take up? If not, we shall be interested to know what it is. Boring for oil will take very few men, as compared with the large personnel required in producing the machinery for the distillation of oil and the still larger indirect labour required for the production of the coal to work in that plant.
  I want to go back to the main argument of the right hon. Gentleman that if we are to develop oil in this country it is necessary to have some scheme of nationalisation of royalties. He based that on what he said was the fact, which was disputed by my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire, but was supported by the hon. and gallant Member for Hitchin (Sir A. Wilson) that there might be great difficulties with
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  royalty owners over areas where there are a large number of small landlords. If that were so and if there were a difficulty, could it not be surmounted without flying in the face of the convictions of so many of those who, I believe, are the Government's best supporters on these benches? Would it not be perfectly practicable, instead of putting in these two or three lines at the beginning of the Bill, to set up a commission with power to grant licences on a specific royalty, and, after deducting from it their expenses and, if you will, a tax for the benefit of His Majesty's Government, to distribute the residuum to the owners of the land under whose property the oil was won Would not such a system be practicable? It might be, and probably would be, cumbrous, but it would not be definitely and clearly dishonest.
  I realise the importance of a vote which is cast in this House. I do not think I have ever voted against the Second Reading of a Bill introduced by the Government that I support. I have put before myself this general guide, that unless one thought that an issue was important enough to face one's constituents upon at an election for Parliament, we have no right to expect to be carried upon the backs of our friends. I support not only my party but also the National Government. I do not sign letters to the Press to suggest that we should give up our party label, any more than I should suggest that Liberal or Socialist supporters of this Government should give up theirs. I am a supporter of the National Government and would do a great deal to maintain it. If my right hon. Friend had come down with another reason; if he had said that the Government were much too Conservative, that he was approaching the matter as a Radical, that the attack on royalty owners or potential royalty owners was in accordance with fair and logical Radical principles; or if he had said that the Prime Minister or his Socialist supporters looked upon this as a necessary counterbalance to certain proposals which have been introdced lately, I should have been inclined to waive my objections, and to have supported the Bill for the sake of the National Government. I do not believe that that is the situation at all.
  So far as I know, since the Prime Minister has been in a responsible

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  position, either on this side or when he led the party opposite, he has never suggested confiscation without compensation. It is a very great misfortune that it should have rested with the National Government to introduce such a principle. I believe that the Bill is not based upon any national principle, but that it is the result of mere thoughtless idleness. It is thoughtless because right hon. Gentlemen did not take the trouble to realise the tremendous repercussions which it will inevitably have. We have heard Debates in another place, and the speech of one of the Leaders of the Opposition who said that the Bill would be quoted as a lasting precedent for the nationalisation of royalties. It is idleness because right hon. Gentlemen have not taken the trouble to investigate all the possible other ways of achieving the perfectly legitimate object of the Bill. The Bill outrages what we have always considered to be one of the main principles for which we stand as a party. Unless my right hon. Friend makes some statement I am afraid that it is not possible—though I very much hope that it will be possible—for me to go into the Lobby in support of the Bill this evening.
  6.13 p.m.
  Lord EUSTACE PERCY: May I, in supporting the Second Reading of the Bill, and replying, as far as I can in these few moments, to the arguments of my hon. Friends who oppose it, begin by saying that when I hear a case supported by vague suspicions as to something that may be happening behind the scenes, I always begin to have serious doubts as to the strength of the case. That may be because I spent my early years in diplomacy, and that I learnt from bitter experience that the people who are always looking so hard for the cards under the table that they could not see the cards on the table, were the worst guides in international affairs. My noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) challenged the Government to reveal, divulge and say. I am not sure that, my noble Friend ought not to be challenged to say what he meant. He started with a vague reference to the most resounding scandal in one country that has ever taken place, and then, as I gathered, he indicated to right hon. Friends of his own that he was not satisfied that all was right, and he hoped
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  that they would take warning. Really, an elusive statement of that kind is likely to create, not, I think, in this Chamber, but outside, impressions which I do not think my Noble Friend ought to create without saying exactly what he means.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: When the time comes.
  Lord E. PERCY: It is not a question when the time will come, but a question whether the time has not arrived now. As to my Noble Friend's specific question whether the President of the Board of Trade had ever talked to any oil company engaged in international business, I sincerely hope that he has. I hope that the Government are not launching upon any policy without consulting the experience of the people who have the most experience in this matter, and I do not think the fact that they have oilfields in more than one country should make them bad advisers of His Majesty's Government as to what sort of administrative policy should be pursued in this country. But let me assure my Noble Friend that at any rate I have not talked to any oil company since I left an oil company some 10 years ago, and that my speech is not based on any such surreptitious and suspicious communication as that.
  A question like this can be discussed either as a matter of individual property rights or as a matter of public policy. The question of individual property rights has not been raised prominently by those who have spoken in favour of the Amendment, with the exception, I think, of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Leicester (Captain Waterhouse). I would only say on that question that, if you are to defend and hold the old Tory position of the rights of property, you must not elevate those rights into an abstract dogma which has no relation to reason at all; those rights must have a reasonable and a practical basis. My hon. and gallant Friend may be surprised to know that, when this question of the discovery of petroleum came up at the end of the War, more than one of the oldest Tory landowners in this country were very strongly of the view that for them to assert a property right in a windfall of that kind would be equivalent to giving away completely any chance of really defending the real rights of property. That is a Tory view which I should hold myself, and I think the Tory

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  party—because I am a Tory rather than a Conservative—will be very badly advised if they ever revert to a purely Whig attitude about the rights of property.
  But that, as I have said, has not been the basis on which this case has been argued to-day. It has been argued frankly by my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire as a matter of public policy, and the case of the opponents of the Bill is a case with which I have the very greatest sympathy. It is that the private ownership of property, and the private ownership of mineral rights in this country, has been a sounder principle of government, and has secured sounder development, than the State monopolies of mineral rights in other countries. That is a very tenable proposition, but it is made entirely untenable if you start your history, as my Noble Friend did, with the history of royal monopolies. What a royal monopoly of trade and Empire has to do with the ownership of minerals I cannot conceive: the issues raised by the two things are wholly different.
  As a matter of fact, we have arrived at our position in this country, as usual, entirely by haphazard and chance There are certain minerals, namely, silver and gold, which are royal monopolies, and have been since the beginning of time. There are certain minerals to which, anyway up to the end of the Middle Ages, the principle of search and following, to which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hitchin (Sir A. Wilson) has alluded, applied. But I am not going through the complicated history of mineral rights in this country. There is no dispute about the fact that as a general principle, given a tabula rasa, no Government to-day would abandon its monopoly of mineral rights. No British administrator in a British dependency would abandon Government ownership of mineral rights, and I do not think there is any administrator in India who does not regard as one of the worst mistakes over made by a Secretary of State for India an obiter dictum of, I think, Lord Cranbrook, in this House resigning the mineral rights of the Government in Bengal under the Permanent Settlement.
  But, while that is the general principle, it is the fact that a Government monopoly of mineral rights, where you have a
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  tabula rasa, does not work particularly well. I, like my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hitchin, have been in the position of a concessionaire of Government mineral rights, and I cannot say that I have a very high opinion of the forethought or the planning or the ideas of conservation which governments in that position entertain. That is why there is much to be said for the view that in this country we hit upon a better expedient. Mineral rights, at any rate the most important mineral right of coal, came into the hands, generally speaking, of very large landowners, men who were rich enough to be able to forego the profits of over-rapid and wasteful development, and at the same time were reasonably anxious, like all human beings, to accumulate as much wealth as possible for their descendants.
  They were also men who lived a leisured life, and, therefore, were naturally particularly anxious for the amenities of the countryside; and, apart from the question whether they did not get too much money out of it, and are not getting too much money to-day—that is quite another question—as planning authorities I think there is a great deal to be said for the proposition that, as a matter of public policy, the great landowner was a much better planner than the Government would have been of mineral development, just as he was a much better planner, at- that time, of urban development where he was the one big landowner controlling the development of a whole town. If anybody doubts that, they might compare the development of Grimsby with the development, say, of Hull on small freehold land. It is a matter of opinion, but at any rate there is a great deal to be said for the proposition as a matter of public policy.
  It depends, however, upon the large landowner, who does own the whole of an urban site, or who does own a very large mineral area; and all Governments, including the present Government, and all parties, including the Tory party, have to recognise that, where you have surface ownership split up among a number of comparatively small people, mineral rights must not be similarly split up. Tory Governments have recognised that fact. You have only to look at Mr. Wyndham's Irish Land Purchase Act, 1903, where it was recognised, and where

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  no one disputed the fact that, if you are going to sell to a number of smallholders the land which they have farmed, you must reserve, as we reserved to the Land Commission, the mineral rights involved. That is the kind of atmosphere in which you have to consider the question of public policy. You have to consider it in a wholly different light. To-day, with the exception, if I may make a personal remark, of my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire and a few others, the great landowner is disappearing, and you are dealing with a multiplicity of small owners; and you cannot expect that mineral development will take place under such a regime in anything like the same way in which it took place under the regime of the big landowner.
  We now come to the particular question of this Bill. My Noble Friend directed two arguments against it. One was that this nationalisation of mineral rights as regards petroleum would divert capital from the land. I really cannot see that it would. If the investment of capital in the land is to depend on the purely speculative development of one man having some petroleum rights which are worth developing, surely that element is insignificant, and surely, if any man is going to speculate in petroleum, he is not going to do it through the purchase of land. The rights in regard to petroleum are of far too little speculative value for any man to invest in land for that purpose. Then my Noble Friend proceeded to try to demolish the argument of the President of the Board of Trade as to the necessity for this Bill, and tried to show that, so far from development being held up by the present position, it was this Bill which was holding it up. I do not think that his first point, that five licences were being held up pending the passing of the Bill, was a very strong one. A change of policy is involved, and it is only natural that a Ministry should hold up administrative measures which cut across a particular piece of legislation. Personally, I should be willing to wait two or two and a-half years if after that I could have ordered and planned development.
  But, quite apart from that, says my Noble Friend, there is no reason for this Bill at all; you can do under your present licensing system all that you want. And then, if he will allow me to say so, he
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  rather rode off on an injudicious remark—if he in turn will allow me to say so—of the President of the Board of Trade about oil going from one man's property to another. Of course it is quite true that, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hitchin has said, the rate at which oil travels varies very much, according to the strata in which it is travelling. My Noble Friend, in his very interesting geological lecture, did not sufficiently explain to the House that the formation in which the oil is found is not necessarily, or even probably, the limestone formation in which it is generated. The oil may be in a very porous medium like very porous sandstone, when it will travel considerably greater distances than my Noble Friend gave the House to believe. But that is not the gravamen of the reason for this Bill. When hon. Members ask what can be the reason for this extraordinary development on the part of the Government, I really wonder whether they have devoted any thought to what the ownership of property in minerals really means. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Leicester said that surely it would be quite easy to get over it in a different way. You are to see that the sacred rights of property in minerals are respected, but you who own the mineral are not to be allowed to bore for it without a Government licence, and we have a right to give a licence to anyone we like over any area of land we like. It will be for him to say on whose property in that area he will drill and, where he drills, there he will pay royalties.
  It is not a question of the distance that oil will travel. It is a question of the holding formation of the oilfield. It may be a long anticline extending over five or six miles. The chances are that, if you get good holding oilfield in one anticline, you will have neighbouring anticlines and subsidiary anticlines, and any oil company that wants to do planned development will want to own not only the whole of one anticline, but the whole of the area of subsidiary anticlines, and possibly the neighbouring one. They may open their mouths too large, I am not dogmatising on how much of the property a single oil company ought to have but it is quite likely to cover an area of five, six, eight or twelve or more large farms. It may cover a large number of quite small properties, cottages and so on, in

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  individual tenure, and if each of those people has a right in the oil under his property, the State is exercising a pretty large discrimination in saying, "No, you shall not keep your own property, because we think it desirable to hand it over to someone who will drill on this bank of the anticline first and then on the other bank of the anticline, leaving the subsidiary anticline for five or ten years before he drills, and all the time you, who enjoy the sacred ownership of your own property, are not to be allowed to work it, and probably will never be, because if you are quite a small holder the well will not be put down on your property and the neighbouring man will get it."
  I ask the House to consider that a property right of that kind, interfered with arbitrarily by the State in all those ways, is a property right that is not really worth having. It would be worth having if a big landowner were owning the whole of the anticlinal formation, but if it is a case of a number of small people, it is almost impossible for the State to act fairly between them. The only reasonable policy in that situation is to take over the mineral rights in the interest of property development. It seems to me obvious. I think all these laboured attempts to prove that it is not necessary are flying in the face of common sense. It has nothing particularly to do with the peculiar nature of oil except in this one respect, that you are not dealing with a static seam. You are dealing with a structure tampering with which at one point on one person's property may seriously damage development elsewhere, if only because you will release the pressure on which you depend elsewhere for flowing wells and to save the cost of pumping.
  I have given the reasons why I shall support the Bill and I would ask those who are opposing it to consider the problem not in the controversial spirit that they have exhibited hitherto. No one admires more than I do my Noble Friend's extraordinarily fine and cogent debating speech, but it was very controversial. We should consider this far more in relation to the broader issues of industrial development, with the protection of the rights of property on a reasonable and logical basis which it is possible to defend, and the importance of defending
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  agricultural interests and the interests of agricultural land on grounds which it will be possible to defend.
  6.36 p.m.
  Mr. RHYS: I think that the whole House will be grateful to my Noble Friend for having placed the Debate upon a very high plane. I think the House can well afford to spend a little time discussing the very fundamental change in principle which is involved in this Measure. It has always been a principle of law that minerals below the surface belong to the surface owner. Times may change, and it may well be that in years to come it will be found necessary, for the benefit of the State, that minerals under the surface shall be nationalised. But I believe, when we have the opportunity that is afforded to-day of discussing this problem, it may well be taken, because there are a very large number of people who have a very pertinent interest in the matter. I think the House would be well advised to take note of the very frank statement of His Majesty's Opposition, who may well become His Majesty's Government in the course of a number of years, that they will regard this Measure as a first instalment of nationalisation. Nationalisation may be a good thing or a bad thing, but I think the House should also take note of the fact that His Majesty's Opposition, in frankly stating that they take this as a precedent, are being presented with the precedent of nationalisation of minerals without compensation. That seems to me a negation of official policy, which hitherto has always been that the State should not deprive one of its citizens, an individual of the State, of any property that he may possess without compensation. I think we should, indeed, pay some attention to that fundamental declaration. The declaration is to refer, I understand, to land as well.
  A few months ago I had occasion to call upon one of my constituents, and he told be he had been running with Labour but now he was running away from it, because they were robbers. I was a little startled at this strong language and I inquired the reason. He said he had listened to Mrs. Sidney Webb on the wireless. She had recently been to Russia and she said Russia was a paradise because there were no landlords. My constituent owns one and a half acres

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  of land with two houses upon it. I very much fear that Mrs. Sidney Webb has lost two votes for the Labour party. I only tell the story because the landlords to-day are not a few large ones, but a very large number of small ones and the House should think carefully before it assents to the principle of confiscation or nationalisation, without compensation, of the interests of a very large number of individuals. I hope to see the nationalisation of mining royalties on a reasonable scale with compensation, because I think it would remove a great deal of friction which at present exists, and I am not necessarily opposed to the State acquiring property from individuals, but I question very much the wisdom of laying down this principle of confiscation without compensation.
  We are asked to agree to the Bill on two grounds, one that there is as yet no vested interest and, therefore, it is easy to acquire, and the other, that it will be practically impossible to apportion whatever oil there may be among the various owners. There are other minerals which at present are in the hands of the Crown. I do not know that there is any silver in England and I only know of two small gold mines, and they could not possibly afford any such complications as this Bill will introduce. It is said that oil is a fluid and is, therefore, in a different category from coal or stone, which is static. I do not think we ought to pin ourselves entirely to the fact that oil is a fluid. So is water, and I know of no law which prevents an individual from sinking a well on his land and drawing what water he requires. It is evident that he must be drawing water from underneath the land of a neighbouring owner. One of the greatest difficulties about mining is to keep water out.
  But, suppose for a moment that the Government have made a case for the introduction of this Bill. I should like to have heard exactly what are the reasons that have stirred the Government into action. I make no attack when I say that but, when there are so many other things requiring the pressing attention of the Administration, and we are suddenly asked to deal with a Measure so fundamentally altering the conception of property, I think we might have had a little more explanation as to why it is necessary. If the Minister says that it is in
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  the national interest, I do not want to press him any further, but when we are dealing with this great matter we ought to be told a little more about it.
  No speaker has so far dealt with the actual provisions of the Bill apart from the one that vests oil in the Crown. I do not believe that the House in the least understands what it is being asked to do once the oil is nationalised. As I understand the Bill, the Board of Trade is going to have complete discretion to grant licences. There is to be no public information, no public notice, that the licence is being asked for. It is true that the Board of Trade have to lay regulations on the Table of this House describing how licences may be applied for, and that it is possible in due course for this House to alter the regulations, but there is no power to revoke any licence which is given in the meantime. That means that Parliament is parting with a very great deal of power. We may not always have the same President of the Board of Trade or the same Minister of Mines, and this House will have no control in certain circumstances of the licences that the Government may grant. I do not know whether hon. Members have such complete faith in a Government Department as to want to give them that power. We have gone a long way in this Parliament towards divesting ourselves of real control of policy. We allow Orders-in-Council to an unprecedented degree, and I feel that the moment has come when a halt may be called, or at least a protest registered about the increasing tendency on the part of the Governmnet to take over a new nationalised industry and to take such power to themselves that this House will no longer have any control over it.
  I would like the Minister, when he replies, to deal also with this question of amenities. What is amenity? I believe it is almost undefinable. Any hon. Member who goes to Stonehenge and who has not seen it for a number of years will be horrified at the action of a Government Department in disfiguring Stonehenge and Salisbury Plain around. If ever it is proposed to build a gasworks or a row of houses which may spoil the view of Richmond Hill, in Surrey, there is an immediate outcry, even though that gasworks may be five miles away. I believe it is almost impossible to define amenities. Again, whether that is an

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  assessable asset or a liability in computing compensation is almost impossible to say. The other great power which the Government are asking us to give them is what is described in one of the Clauses of the Bill as an ancillary right. That is the right to enter upon any land that they may desire, not, I would ask the House to notice, the actual land upon which the oil well may be drilled, but they take power to deal with the carrying away of the oil. As no inquiry is necessary beforehand, an owner of land two or three miles away from the well may suddenly find himself compelled to give access for pipe lines or whatever other method may be required, without having had any opportunity of making his own suggestions in the matter.
  I do not want in the least to stop the granting of oil licences or to hold up the development of the oil industry, but when my right hon. Friend says that it would not be fair to those applying for licences to have any publicity in the matter, I venture to say that there are other people who have the right to expect some fairness, and those are the people who have interests in the neighbourhood. If it is not fair to one party, it equally is not fair to the other. Therefore, I hope some kind of modification will be made by which those interested in the neighbourhood may have an opportunity of putting their case. In this matter of compensation, I can readily conceive that perhaps it is inevitable—the march of time is such that these matters sink into comparative insignificance, but, after all, we in this House are here to represent the interests of all who live in the land—that as a result of action on the part of the Board of Trade the erection of pipe lines, engine houses, pumps, and so on may well diminish the value of, or even render entirely valueless, land and property which had a considerable value before.
  I ought perhaps to have said earlier, when I spoke about houses and gasworks being only five miles away, that in the case of the Anglo-Persian oil works near Swansea, in a certain wind, you can smell them 20 miles away, and a very offensive smell it is too. It may well be that these projects may reduce very heavily the value of land, and if that is done by the arbitrary action of a Government Department, will any compensation
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  be payable in. that connection? After all, a man may recently have spent very large sums upon a piece of land, and the State may immediately afterwards render that expenditure entirely nugatory. I do not go so far as my noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) in condemning the Bill out of hand, if a strong case for the public interest can be made. The march of time may be such that it is inevitable, but we must be very clear what it is that we are assenting to, and I hope the hon. Gentleman, when he replies, will make some attempt to deal with the position in the Bill and tell us the answer to some of the questions that I have endeavoured to put to him.
  6.52 p.m.
  Mr. T. SMITH: The hon. and gallant Member for South Leicester (Captain Waterhouse) asked what Members would do in their constituencies in regard to this Bill. I think I can tell him right away. We believe that if there is any natural gas to be exploited, it can be exploited better under national control than it can if left in private hands, and from that angle we are supporting this Bill. The Debate has been very interesting, with regard to the merits of private as against public ownership, and when hon. Members talk about the Opposition quoting this as a precedent, I may say that I do not think this Bill will have any bearing at all upon future questions of nationalisation. I support this Bill entirely apart from that question. I think you will be driven by sheer economic necessity to nationalise your basic industries before long, apart altogether from this Bill.
  The Noble Lord the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) is a defender of the private ownership of mineral royalties, and I do not blame him—he has done very well out of it—but the point that seems to be missed in regard to our opposition to the private ownership of mineral wealth is this: It is not merely that £5,500,000 a year is taken from the industry, although, in our opinion, that is far too much, especially when you remember that in some pits there is a royalty of nearly 6d. per ton when the actual tonnage rate paid to the men at the coal face for getting the coal is equal to about 1s. per ton. But that is not the real case. The Secretary for Mines knows, or there is sufficient data

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  in his Department to tell him, that tens of thousands of acres of good coal have been lost to this country through the private ownership of minerals. That fact has been brought out before repeated commissions. The Noble Lord knows that prior to 1923 the landowner had the absolute right to say whether his minerals should be worked or not, and it was only in 1923, when the Miners Facilities Bill passed through this House, under a Conservative Government, that some colliery companies obtained the right to go before the Railway and Canal Commission and obtain further coal to work which had been denied by the mineral royalty owners.
  The hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Pike) may be interested to know that in his constituency, in connection with the pit at which I worked for 22 years, there were scores of acres of good coal lost that can never be recovered, simply because some royalty owners absolutely refused to allow that colliery company to work them.
  Mr. PIKE: Is it not the case that the mineral rights in that case were owned by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners?
  Mr. SMITH: Not in the particular case that I quote. For the hon. Member's information, may I say to him that when the Mines Facilities Act was passed in 1923 the the royalties that that company was able to obtain as a result of that Act put 15 years life on that colliery. Therefore, we say that the private ownership of coal royalties has wasted tens of thousands of acres of good coal in this country that can never be recovered. The attitude of the hon. Members opposite appears to be that whatever happens to be underneath the earth belongs to the landowner. I wonder why they do not claim that the air ought to be taxed. I suppose it is simply because they have not been able to enclose it. But while the defenders of the private ownership of mineral wealth defend their own interests in season and out of season they believe in public ownership in some respects. They are quite prepared to have the Army and Navy kept up by the nation and to have the taxpayer provide all that is necessary in that direction, but when it comes to a question of the possibility of extracting money for nothing, they want private ownership.
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  In addition to that, experience has shown, and the Coal Mines Reorganisation Committee has stated clearly and definitely, that the private ownership of mineral wealth is stopping the reorganisation of the mining industry. Therefore, in a word, our position is that we do not believe that this will bring in the millennium, we do not believe you will make any material difference to the coal mining industry one way or the other by this Bill, but we believe that if there is petroleum to be exploited, it can be better exploited under public control than in the hands of private owners; and because we believe in that principle, we shall assent to the Second Reading of this Bill.
  6.57 p.m.
  Viscount WOLMER: I can certainly join with my hon. Friends in opposing this Bill because of the very fundamental questions that it raises. We have only to listen to the speech of the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith), who has just sat down, to realise the sort of thing that is going to be said all over the country about the Bill. I would remind my hon. Friend that he started off by saying that he thought the Bill had nothing to do with the question of coal, but he devoted the greater part of his remarks to coal.
  Mr. T. SMITH: I said that the passing of the Bill had no relation at all to the question of nationalisation.
  Viscount WOLMER: Yes, and then my hon. Friend went on to argue in favour of the nationalisation of coal. I merely mention the matter to show that you cannot possibly deal with this question of private property in petroleum as if it were a mineral quite apart and by itself, and as if the same question of equity, the same right of private property, did not obtain in petroleum as obtains in all other minerals in this country, except gold and silver, which exist here only in minute quantities. However, what brought me to my feet was the speech of my Noble Friend the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), who, with his extraordinarily ingenious mind, developed a new theory which, to his satisfaction, differentiated the case of petroleum from that of coal. My Noble Friend said that our ancestors were wise in upholding private property in minerals, because in those days all landlords were big landlords, and the big

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  landlords were not only the best developers of coal mines, but they were also the best guardians of the amenities of the countryside, and, therefore, purely as a question of national policy, private ownership in minerals in those days was to be commended. It seem" to me that, on my Noble Friend's own showing, the disappearance of the big landlord destroys the case for private ownership in minerals altogether. There is not the slightest doubt that the introduction of this Bill is going to be hailed by the Socialist party throughout the length and breadth of the country as an abandonment by the Conservative party of the principle of private owner ship in minerals. That is injurious not only to the reputation of the Conservative party, but to the whole State, because I believe that respect for private property is one of the essential fundamentals to confidence in this country, and to activity in trade.
  Once you do anything that shakes the faith of the public that Parliament will respect what have hitherto been regarded as the rights of property, you undermine all business initiative. I know my hon. Friends say: "How can you be injuring private property when people do not know whether they have got the oil under their land or not?" That is the argument that has been used by the Government both in this House and in another place. Lord Londonderry, of all people in the world, speaking in another place, suggested that there was no unfairness in the State confiscating, or rather declaring its ownership of oil which has not yet been discovered, because there was no person or section of persons who could say: "This is my oil." It was not known to be there, and because they could not claim it there was no hardship or injustice in taking it away. On similar arguments to that, you could really undermine the whole theory of private property, and I agree with my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) that it is a great mistake to think you could make one radical departure of this nature without having a profound effect on public opinion in regard to all questions of private property.
  Lord Londonderry's argument reminded me very much of an argument from Mr. Philip Snowden, as he then was. Twenty-
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  five years ago when his views were very different from what they are to-day, I remember him coming down to the Oxford Union and saying he could nationalise all property in this country without any compensation and without doing any injustice to anybody by a very simple expedient, which was to pass an Act of Parliament to say that nobody born after the passing of the Act would inherent any property. He argued very plausibly that the unborn could not possibly have any grievance against Parliament and you could not do an injustice to people who did not exist. Therefore, you could nationalise all property without inflicting an injury on any one person. That is very much like the argument that you are not attacking private property by declaring State ownership of petroleum, because all the supplies of petroleum have not yet been discovered. I do not believe you can declare it is equitable for the State to enter on petroleum in other people's land without profoundly affecting the whole public opinion in regard to the equity of owning property at all, and it is because I have always regarded the Conservative party as a bulwark in favour of the maintenance of private property against the Socialist party who have risen up to challenge that principle that I am distressed to see the Conservative party being asked and induced once more to throw its principles to the wind on some one particular case which the Government have brought forward.
  I was profoundly impressed by the speech of my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire, who has great technical knowledge in this matter, and I do think that case wants answering. I do not think, if I may so with all respect, that the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings was any adequate answer at all. It is perfectly true that petroleum has to be mined and the winning of petroleum must be governed by technical considerations. My Noble Friend may be right in saying that the present Act is imperfect, but there could be an arrangement by which once the oil was located it could be arbitrated upon with expert advice. The owners of the property in that area could share in the royalties to be derived from the extraction of the oil, and it could be governed by an arbitrator's decision. The technical case could easily be answered in a

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  manner of that sort, and it is no answer to the Noble Lord the Member for West Derbyshire to say that, because you have got to take the oilfield as a whole, it is impossible to pay compensation to the many different owners of the surface ground. I think the owners of the surface ground will have the very greatest cause for complaint if the oil is taken from under their property and the whole of their countryside is disfigured and they have no share in the prosperity that results.
  They may get compensation and the Bill tries to arrange that they should have it for loss of amenities. Everybody knows that is an extraordinarily difficult thing. When the wealth is being taken from their property and their homes are being made unpleasant as a result of industrial development, it seems to me most unjust that they should have no share in the prosperity. I would like to say something on the question of publicity, and I think that is a matter which has not received attention from the House. I am not going to make any charge against the President of the Board of Trade or any of his advisers. We know perfectly well we have far and away the most honest and upright Civil Service in the world. I believe one of the reasons, though not the only one, that is so, is that Parliament in the past has taken great care that everything should be done in the light of day. When you are dealing with a matter in which millions of pounds may be involved, when there are great powerful corporations interested, it does seem to me to be extraordinarily dangerous that these licences should be granted, or rather withheld, and these negotiations should be conducted and decisions made entirely secretly. Just contrast the policy of the Government in this respect with their marketing policy of which I am a strong supporter. If I want to get a monopoly of selling hops or black currants or any other agricultural product, which is what the Marketing Act confers, there have to be inquiries and notices which extend the period in which everybody concerned has notice to nine months. You cannot get a marketing scheme through in less time, and at every turn there are, very appropriately and rightly, opportunities for everything to be examined publicly and for interested people to be heard. I am glad to say a
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  great many of these provisions were inserted when the Conservative party were in opposition and the Socialist party in office, because the Conservative party were then prepared to agitate in favour of these safeguards.
  It is going to be far easier to get an oil monopoly than it is to get a marketing scheme through, and it does seem to me to be very dangerous and wrong that these things should be done without there being a public inquiry. After all, if you are going to treat this as a question of public policy, as it must be treated, in a democratic country or in any country, the only safeguard you have against scandals creeping in, is that these things should be done in the light of day. I should like to hear from my right hon. Friends what the objection is to a public inquiry.
  On the question of amenities, I should like the House to realise that if the Crown is to have a monopoly of the oil, no local authority, no private individual will ever be able to bring a case against the Crown if it commits an atrocity against the amenities of any district. Just consider; we have an example in the case of Carlton House Terrace. I do not wish to suggest that I entirely agree with those who agitated against the decision of the Office of Works in that matter, but how much change did they get? It is impossible to influence a Government department in a matter of that sort. They simply snap their fingers at you. Look at Regent Street. No private owner would have dared to treat its tenants as the Crown treated its tenants, and, if the Duke of Westminster had been guilty of such conduct, every radical orator in the country would have stood on a soap box wherever there was room for him to stand.
  A Crown monopoly is a most dangerous thing to the liberties of the subject, if he happens to be in a small minority. The people of England, as a whole, will not tolerate general oppression and dictation from Whitehall, but they are frequently very unsympathetic when the oppression falls on a few selected individuals, and that again is a matter in which I think the Bill is seriously faulty. Therefore, this Bill is not one that I can support. If the existing Act is unworkable and should, for technical reasons, be amended, let the Government come forward and say so, and explain

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  why. That is no reason why we should establish the principle that the State has the right to confiscate minerals under the soil without compensation.
  I think it is deplorable that the Conservative party, in defiance of its principles and traditions, should be lending itself to such a policy. I think it is a positive injury to our national life. At the present time our national life is suffering very severely from the public witnessing the Prime Minister agreeing to the abolition of the taxation of laud values, and the Lord President of the Council agreeing to the nationalisation of minerals. That is the sort of thing that confuses public opinion and leads to a belief that politicians are fundamentally dishonest, that they can stand for one thing all their lives and when they get into office they do the opposite. On every ground this Bill raises far greater issues than the President of the Board of Trade suggested, and I shall certainly join with my hon. Friends in opposition to it at every stage.
  7.32 p.m.
  Mr. HOLDSWORTH: The Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer) assured us that he is a Conservative. The Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) assured us that he is not a Conservative but a Tory. I had always thought that Conservatism was enlightened Toryism, but I preferred the speech of the Tory to-day to the one to which I have just listened. I want to compliment the President of the Board of Trade on the introduction of the Bill, I look upon it as good Liberal policy. It takes for the State that to which it is entitled. It does not allow to the individual something he has never created and to which he has never had any claim. By a system of licensing it allows development by private enterprise, when the State has given its authority.
  Many complaints have been made about the speech of my right hon. Friend in introducing the Bill. The hon. and gallant Member for Leicester South (Captain Waterhouse) complained that the speech was too brief. I thought that it was perfectly concise. The hon. and gallant Member also said that the speech was not clear. To me it was perfectly clear. I have no complaint to make upon those grounds. Whatever may be said
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  about the right hon. Gentleman not being clear as to why he introduced the Bill, the opponents of the Measure have made their position perfectly clear. Their position is that the system which I have always looked upon as being wrong in principle, that is to say, the private ownership of royalties so far as minerals are concerned, is right. Their contention is that that system should be perpetuated in this Bill and that they should be compensated for something which they do not know as yet exists. No one knows whether we are going to get petroleum in large or small quantities, or at all. If we do secure petroleum, the opponents of the Bill say: "We will take the profits to be derived from it." The hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Rhys) referred to the principle of compensation for rights. I cannot see what right there can be in something that does not exist, so far as we know. Hon. Members talk about confiscation. Confiscation of what? Is there any landlord who would suggest that any kind of estimate was made, any sort of calculation made in the price that he paid for any land he now holds, because there might be some petroleum underneath it? That would never he contended by any Member of this House.
  I should like to deal with the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Derbyshire, West (Marquess of Hartington). He opposed the Bill on three grounds. His first ground was that it was wrong and bad in principle, and that it was a return to Royal monopolies. He spoke of the fifteenth century and of certain things that Queen Elizabeth gave up and took back to herself afterwards. He said that the right of Royal monopoly was finally done away with in 1660, and that by returning to it in this Bill We were putting the clock back for 3O0 years. Listening to the speech of the Noble Lord, I thought that I was listening to a voice 300 years old. Does the Noble Lord suggest that the State will use this power that is asked to be given to it in this Bill in the same way as the Royal monopolies were used 300 years ago? Surely, there has been a great development since that time. There can be no suggestion that the State will use this particular power to further the ends of any particular individuals, as was done 300 years ago. There can be no valid objection on that ground.

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  The Noble Lord's second objection was that the ownership of land would be made less attractive. I wonder why? Later on he explained Why. He said that in America those who held land which yielded oil took one-sixth or one-eighth of the products. I could quite imagine that if any landlord has been looking forward to such compensation—compensation to which he is not entitled in justice or equity—and he is going to lose one-sixth or one-eighth of a product, it would be a very useful addition to his income if he could be given the same privilege which the American has got. It is obvious that there is no legitimate objection to the action of the Government in this matter. One can imagine that it would be a very attractive proposition if the landowner could get one barrel out of every six barrels of oil produced.
  The Noble Lord's third objection was that the oil policy in the Bill was definitely wrong. I was at a loss to follow Ms argument. Ho gave us a learned and technical discourse about geological formations, which was very interesting, but it seemed to me not to be related to the Bill. I cannot see how the system that is suggested in the Bill for granting licences has anything to do with the Noble Lord's contention that the policy in the Bill is wrong. It seems to me that it will be perfectly open to a person who receives a licence to develop a particular undertaking in the most scientific way possible. How the Bill affects that particular matter I fail to understand. The Noble Lord also attacked the Bill on the ground that it would make the ownership of land more onerous. That was a very interesting statement, but I heard no argument to prove it. It is all very well to come to the House and try to frighten everybody without proving his contention. I do not think there is a single owner of land in this House or in the country who would seriously put up the argument that because of this Bill the ownership of their land is to become more onerous. Is there any landlord in the country who ever expected any results from petroleum on his land? The Noble Lord also argued that it was essential for people to put their money into land. I do not think anyone would dispute that. How this Bill prevents that from being done I fail to see. The speech—a speech, if I may say so with respect, well delivered
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  —was as to nine-tenths of it unrelated to the Bill.
  There was one statement of the President of the Board of Trade in introducing the Bill with which I disagree. He said that this Bill was not an important political step but an important economic step. It is also an important political step, and in that sense I agree with those who are opposing the Bill. If there is to be development of an industry like the petroleum industry, surely hon. Members opposite are not prepared to see repeated the kind of struggle that has been going on for all these years in the coal mining industry. Every report that has been given on that industry has condemned the private ownership of mineral rights. If we are to have a new industry do not let us create a private vested interest that might develop in such a way that the new industry would suffer as the coal mining industry has suffered. There was one omission that I noted in the speech of my right hon. Friend, and that was that no reference was made to natural gas. I am not an expert and I do not know anything about the discovery of natural gas in this country—
  The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Ernest Brown): It is covered in the Bill.
  Mr. HOLDSWORTH: I know that it is covered in the Bill, but the right hon. Gentleman made no reference to it in his speech. [Interruption.] The hon. Member opposite is the last man in the world to talk about possessing natural gas. Let him sit quiet on that subject. It is interesting to note the results of discoveries in Vienna on this subject. A concession was granted to an American firm and they have tapped a remarkable source of natural gas which, I understand, would feed the whole of Vienna so far as gas is concerned. It is interesting to note the very cheap way in which it can be distributed by a few men simply by the manipulation of valves. After the first few hundred thousand pounds had been spent in boring, tremendous results can be got. I suggest to hon. Members opposite that that is due to geological formation and not to the efforts of individual landowners. The Government are entitled to say that if such a discovery were made here the State shall reap the reward from it.

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  I am sorry that the noble Lord the Member for Aldershot has left the House. He twitted us by saying that if certain events occurred we Radicals would go up and down the country making speeches. He has no complaint to make against the Government so far as regulations go. No person in this House has been more in favour of marketing schemes than the noble Lord. He is particularly attached to a certain marketing scheme, and, if a new scheme were to come before the House and we found that it created a monopoly for certain pig producers, he would be one of the biggest supporters of that particular scheme. Personally I thank the President of the Board of Trade for the introduction of the Bill. I have always had a very great admiration for his Liberalism. I used to follow him very faithfully indeed, and I am glad to see that even at this eleventh hour he has persuaded the Government to bring in one Measure to which Liberals can give the whole-hearted support.
  7.31 p.m.
  Mr. DAVID REID: I am sorry that on this occasion I find myself in opposition to the Noble Lord who moved the rejection of the Bill, and to a number of other hon. Members with whom I am usually in cordial agreement. I find myself supporting a Measure which is supported by the Front Bench opposite, and my main purpose in rising is to explain that I do not support the Bill for any reason which they or any hon. Member on that side of the House has suggested. My view is that there is no deep principle involved in the Bill. There is no scheme for the nationalisation of mining royalties or the nationalisation of anything else, in my opinion. One opponent of the Bill spoke of the ownership of minerals. Various hon. Members have talked of owning minerals as if a landowner had some specific grant of things called minerals. A man owns the surface of the land and the sub-soil, and if something called a mineral is found in the sub-soil he owns that. So far as I know the question of the ownership of petroleum has never yet arisen in England.
  A good many years ago, before the passing of the Act of 1918, when certain firms and persons were prepared to test the resources of this country for getting
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  petroleum, it happened that I was called in to advise them on a number of points, land they directed my attention to this question. I remember that I consulted a number of the American authorities, but they did not seem to throw much light on the subject, and I came to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that petroleum, being a fluid, in law holds much the same position as water or brine. Take the case of water. In this country anyone is at liberty to sink a well on his own property and to draw water from it, even though in doing so he is drawing the water away from his neighbour's land. There is no property in underground water or rather in percolating water. But there are parts of the country where the water found is of a peculiar value, for instance for brewing, and where prohibitive clauses against the sinking of wells or the drawing of water have in certain circumstances to be inserted. There is the still stronger case of brine. There is no doubt that brine is simply rock salt dissolved in water. Rock salt in a solid state is a mineral and belongs to the owner of the soil, but when water penetrates into the fissures and so on it can be brought to the surface in the form of brine. Petroleum is found in the soil, but it is fluid. I think the Noble Lord under-estimated the fluidity of petroleum. Hon. Members have stated from experience that petroleum might flow or percolate over a considerable area. It seems to me that the only right of property in anything which is worth having is a right of property which you can assert. You cannot possibly have that right in a substance which may flow on to your neighbour's land or under your neighbour's land, and which, when it does so, he is able to extract without being under any liability.
  The law being as it is, and the substance being of that kind, there is no effective right of ownership in petroleum, in my opinion. What then is the wisest thing to do? In these circumstances if you want the mineral worked, or attempts made to work it, you must find some way by which some exclusive right can get into someone's hands. The best way is to vest the right of property in the Crown and for the Crown then to grant such rights for working as are required. No one is going to make a bore-hole at considerable expense knowing that if he

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  strikes oil someone may put a bore-hole down on a piece of land close to him. Unless you have some restriction no person is likely to spend money in sinking wells, to find that if he is successful anyone else can sink a well close to him and compete with him. Therefore, some Measure of this nature is called for. But I think the Bill will require very careful consideration in Committee. There is here not only the right for searching and boring, all of which might not require very much land, but it goes on to refer to storing, treating, and converting petroleum, and so forth. In the case of these powers people should not only be compensated for land taken, but anyone whose land is injuriously affected should have compensation. That does not seem to be provided for in the Bill. But those are Committee matters.
  7.42 p.m.
  Captain PEAKE: We have listened to an exceptionally interesting Debate, in which experts on oil have vied with exponents of political theory. I was very much interested in the extraordinarily able speech of my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington). I thought that he to some extent exposed a weak flank when he put forward what I might call the agricultural portion of his argument. Personally, I could not see that, because the State was taking away from a landowner a mineral oil lying 3,000 feet below the surface, the landowner was likely to put less manure upon the surface. I could see only a very remote connection between the two. But it struck me, as I listened to my Noble Friend, that possibly at the back of his mind there was the idea that some day some Government or other will follow up this present Measure by unifying the mineral ownership in coal, and it occurred to me that possibly my Noble Friend was not allowing this opportunity to go by to-day, so that he should not be precluded from substantiating a claim, and in my opinion a very just claim, to compensation, if ever such action should be taken.
  With regard to the speech of the Seconder of the Amendment, my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. M. Beaumont), I confess I was struck dumb by his versatility. He appeared before us last Thursday as a declared admirer of Fascism and the methods of
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  Mussolini, with all in the way of sacrifice of individual rights that that creed involves. This afternoon he appears as the champion of an individualism which is positively Victorian. When I saw this Bill the first question I asked myself, as one interested in coal, was: Is the State justified in taking steps to develop oil in this country when we have such enormous deposits of coal? Upon reflection I came to the conclusion that there is a good deal that is complementary and not competitive as between the oil and the coal industries. We need large supplies of liquid petroleum in this country. It is true that it is chemically possible to produce these supplies from British coal, but it is a very, very long way from being economically possible, even with the very large preferences which our fiscal system gives to home produced oil; and it seems to me that it is probably a mistake to try to produce by synthetic methods what is, in effect, a natural product existing in great volume throughout the world. I do not believe that it is possible to produce it in that way on an economic basis, though at the same time it is right to give a preference to fuel produced at home. It seems to me that we shall never make a success of the primary production of petrol from coal without regard to the other fuels to be produced. The process which is most likely to be economic in this country is the production of oil from coal as a by-product, the main object being the production of smokeless or semi-solid fuel.
  Having convinced myself that it was wise to try, both on the grounds of finding employment and of national safety, to develop the home oil industry—I inquired what was the present position. It is obvious that under the Petroleum Production Act, 1918, it is absolutely impossible to get any steps taken to encourage the production of oil to-day. The position of the licensee is one of very great doubt and difficulty. I had always imagined, and until this afternoon I had not thought it was possible to challenge the theory, that the owner of the surface was the owner of what lay under the surface also, and, therefore, that the oil belonged to the owner of the surface. My Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire has put forward the proposition, which rather startled me, that anybody was entitled to sink an oil well,

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  and that the oil that came up the well, or was drawn up, was the property of the person upon whose land the well was Blink. I was surprised to hear him put forward that proposition. It may be the law, but, if so, it is a very curious state of affairs, because the Noble Lord bases his opposition to this Bill upon the principle that private property is sacred, whereas the proposition he advanced was that it is open to one landlord, by sinking a well, to pinch the oil belonging to a neighbouring landlord. When the Noble Lord talked of pinching oil, I thought to myself, "If I had any oil under my property I had much rather, on the whole, that it was pinched by the State than by my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire."
  The position of the licensee under that Act being one of very great doubt and difficulty, it is obvious that if there was to be any development the Government must take steps to clarify the position. When we consider what the Government ought to do, two great considerations arise. The first is that I do not think that public opinion to-day will stand for the sort of accidental personal enrichment which has taken place in days gone by through the exploitation of coal. I do not honestly think public opinion would stand for that to-day, yet if we were to declare for private ownership in mineral oil we should be giving a fresh impetus to that sort of accidental personal enrichment. The classic example of enrichment of that kind is the case of a North country landlord who derived a considerable fortune from the minerals under his property but, getting tired eventually of the sight of collieries and slag heaps and colliery villages, decided to invest a portion of his money in a part of England where, as he thought, he was never likely to see a colliery again. After considerable reflection he purchased a very nice property in the eastern part of Kent—and it was not 15 years before coal was being developed there‡ It is possible, to justify these incomes from royalties only upon the ground that any other system would be worse. I think my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire would only seek to justify them on the ground that they are a necessary evil in the process of development.
  The second consideration which appeals to me when I consider what course the
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  Government ought to take is this: Most of us believe to-day that we ought to try to produce a greater degree of planned order in industry than has existed in the past. I myself, in a humble way, have been trying in West Yorkshire to obtain greater co-operation among the producers of coal there. Many schemes have been discussed, but it is not the stupidity or the recalcitrance of a few owners which is the principal obstacle to our schemes. The really great obstacle to any successful scheme is the principle of individual mineral ownership. I wonder whether hon. Members realise that it is not possible to close down a colliery—and there are a good many collieries which ought to be closed down—or even to abandon a seam in a colliery, unless you are prepared to pay compensation to the mineral owner. You can only close down a colliery if that colliery is hopelessly bankrupt and there is not any chance of the landlord getting anything in the winding-up; and even after the liquidation has taken place the landlord is free to develop his property again himself, upon his own lines, or to re-lease it, if he can, to a new tenant. It is upon obstacles of that kind that any attempt to control industry co-operatively breaks down. It may be that in the early stages of a developing industry there is as good development where the minerals are privately owned as where they are publicly owned, but when that industry is fully developed and in a static condition if there is diverse ownership of the minerals it is difficult to get any united action on the part of the tenants. In my opinion there was no alternative to the Government unifying the ownership of oil in the way they are doing under this Bill.
  There is one point of doubt in my mind, as to the method which the Government are adopting. The Crown is to be the owner of these minerals, and the Board of Trade are going to exercise the functions of ownership. Ownership is a skilled business; the ownership of minerals is a special skilled business, in my opinion. I wonder whether the Board of Trade have ever owned anything before. Do they know anything about ownership? Is there anybody in the Board of Trade, except my right hon. Friend the President, who knows anything about ownership? I think there is something to be said for setting up a

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  national fuel commission of experts charged with the duty and the responsibility of ownership. Apart from experience ill ownership we need to have continuity of policy, and the Ministers of Mines and the Presidents of the Board of Trade whom we have had over the last few years have certainly not been of the same complexion. There is a great deal to be said for an Amendment of the Bill to set up a commission to discharge the functions of ownership, which are vital and very responsible. If we had such a commission, when the next great step is taken, and by the next great step I mean the unification of the coal deposits of this country, we should have in existence a commission with some experience who could give their whole time and attention to the very important problems which the ownership of mineral deposits raises.
  In conclusion, we have heard a good deal of political theory this afternoon, a lot about Socialist principles. Liberal principles and Conservative principles. I do not think the country is very much interested in what we all think of the principles of our respective parties. We were sent here as a Government to deal with practical problems, and to deal with them in a practical way. The Government are tackling this problem in a practical way, and I wish them God speed with their Bill.
  7.57 p.m.
  Mr. GEORGE BALFOUR: I do not propose in my few remarks to traverse the ground which has been so well and ably covered by my hon. Friends in this House who think as I do upon this subject; nor do I desire to take this opportunity of exposing what has been already admitted, and that is the unadulterated Socialism upon which this Bill rests. We listened to a speech from the Opposition Front bench in support of the Bill which might well have been made from the Treasury Bench. I content myself with whole-heartedly supporting what my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) said, but I wish to raise an issue which has not so far been touched upon in this Debate, but which I think is of serious consequence. In my opinion, this Bill represents a considerable departure from Parliamentary practice. For the first time in such an important matter
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  there is a proposal to set up a new method of granting concessions. It is true that the word "licence" is used in the Bill, but, in fact, we must read for the word "licence" the word "concession," because that is what is meant. We are considering to-day a machine for the granting of concessions, and very important concessions affecting the whole territory of Britain, and we find that the Board of Trade, a Department which I naturally hold in the highest esteem and respect, and which I am sure would never be suspect of anything favouring in the least of corruption, have thrust upon them the duty, and I think the unfair duty, of granting a concession after, presumably, the only means they can take, a private discussion with the prospective concessionaires.
  Following upon these discussions with the Board of Trade a concession is granted. Then, for the first time in these proceedings, does a proprietor learn that his rights, either as regards his property or his liberty, are affected. At that stage a "Gazette" notice has to appear intimating the grant of the concession. Up to that moment, although his rights are seriously affected, the proprietor is not conscious of any raid either upon his property or his liberty. That, I think, marks this as a serious departure in Parliamentary practice. No doubt my hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines when he replies will say that this is a matter of pressing importance and a matter which brooks no delay. He will say "These concessionaires come to us in secret, not for any corrupt purpose but because it is necessary that nothing should be disclosed to the public." But what have they to disclose? They come to seek the grant of a concession in exactly the same manner as any other concessionaire. I could follow up this argument by showing the various effects which this procedure will have upon private property rights and individual liberty, but that aspect of the question has been well covered already.
  Let us assume that under the 1918 Act sufficient interest was not being taken in this matter and concessionaires were not coming forward. What is the remedy? Let it be known that the Government will welcome applications for concessions by the ordinary method of giving notice in the "Gazette" that a concession is desired to search for and to work oil in

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  certain places. Then all the parties who are directly affected or those who believe themselves to be affected, can take the ordinary measures of protection by lodging objections to any concession. Probably some of those objections would be frivolous, but a large number would be serious, and, on the hearing of those objections, protective conditions would be inserted in the Measure before it left the committee of investigation. It is alleged that this is an expensive method and would occupy a long time.
  I suppose that of all the Members of this House or indeed of all the people of this country, I should be the last to propose the method of Provisional Order or Private Bill procedure. The companies with which I am associated, must have promoted scores of Private Bills or Provisional Orders. I have suffered by having to go through these formalities, and I know the difficulties and the expense and time involved. Only a few years ago after an expenditure of over £50,000 in an important promotion by a company with which I was associated the powers sought were not granted. I felt that we would succeed, but we failed. I make no complaint of that, however, and I have no right as a concessionaire to say that my interest must be regarded as a prior right coming before the rights of individual property and individual liberty. As long as we adhere to the established practice of Parliament, all citizens have an opportunity of considering the matter and of petitioning against any infringement of their rights. The moment we depart from that practice we are taking a wrong course. I would impress upon the President of the Board of Trade and the Secretary for Mines that this is no frivolous debating argument. It is one which I would rather not make, because, for my own personal reasons, it would suit me very well and suit the companies with which I am associated, to know that we could arrange for the grant of concessions here and there without all the tortuous procedure and the expenditure of time and trouble involved in the other method of procedure.
  I think I have made a case to show that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen should think seriously and long before deciding that a National Government, supported in this House by, I think, 470 Conservative Members, should make such
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  a break with Parliamentary tradition and Parliamentary practice. While a National Government is in being, they would do well to pledge themselves not to take any action which would impinge upon the principles of the greatest section of political thought among those in the country from whom they draw support. I do not press that argument, however. It is merely an ancillary argument which touches one personally as a Member of the House. But I would beg the President of the Board of Trade and the Secretary for Mines to reconsider their decision and to introduce a simple Bill extending the provisions of the 1918 Act if necessary, but in no circumstances giving absolute concession rights, without ensuring to all the protection of that procedure which the House has so long followed and justified.
  8.7 p.m.
  Captain HUNTER: I think one must visualise this Bill, whatever one may think about it, with a view to the possibility of there being a large or an appreciable supply of oil in this country. That may be only a possibility, or it may be a probability. But it does not require a great deal of argument to emphasise the importance of oil in quantities to this country. There are two most important aspects of the question. One is the financial importance of oil, if indeed it is to be found in this country, and the other is its military or defensive importance. As regards the financial side of the question we are at this moment expending a very large amount of money in payment for the oil which it is necessary for us to have. That expenditure, I believe, verges on an annual payment of £30,000,000 and any obviation of that large payment, or even portion of it, would be of the utmost value in relation to our balance of trade. When one looks at the question also from the point of view of our relations with foreign countries one recognises still further its great importance. We are bound to have these oil supplies; we are also bound to pay for them and therefore, we are bound to countenance agreements with other countries which we might possibly not accept were our hands untied.
  Even more important than these considerations is the military or defensive aspect. Our naval, military and air forces to-day are highly mechanised. Practically the whole of our forces would be rendered almost immobile if we had

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  not an adequate supply of oil. Our imports of oil are drawn in about equal quantities, on the one side from the Western area, that is the United States and on the other side, from the East. In the event of war we are confronted with the danger of our Eastern supply being cut off at the source. We are also faced with the difficulty of transport from the West in view of possible enemy action. It must, therefore, appear that if indeed there is a supply of oil in this country we are bound, in the interest of the nation, to deal with that supply by the best and most efficient methods which we can devise. Were boring for oil in this country to be undertaken in a haphazard way we would have a situation analogous to that which arose in the United States in earlier years. There would be far-reaching results of an undesirable nature, there would be no control as to the output of oil and no provision for a national reserve in case of emergency.
  I agree at once, therefore, that national control over any oil obtained in this country is essential, and that being the case I would welcome this Bill wholeheartedly if I had any reason to suppose that it was an emergency or temporary Measure. I have no reason to suppose anything of the kind and when I look at this Bill as a Measure which is intended to control a possibly large oil supply in this country I must confess that I am filled with misgivings and alarm. In my view it does not go far enough and is not adequate. There are several objections to this Bill. The Government are to exercise control through the medium of the Mines Department. I can conceive circumstances in which for reasons of foreign policy, the Government under this Bill might be obliged, either by the pressure of a foreign country or through the exigencies of international finance, or the expediency of the moment, to take action which might not be in the national interest. The rights of the private individual are very largely ignored, which is a great mistake. In this matter, I place the private individual a long way behind the nation, but he cannot and ought not to be ignored. It is a moot point legally whether the individual owner has actually any ownership in petrol, but at least he may have a right, which I do not think can altogether be ignored. Another point of objection is that in the circumstances that I have
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  visualised it would be necessary to create a national reserve of oil, which is not as far as I know, provided for in any way.
  No restrictions are made for prohibiting the participation of foreign capital or for ensuring that none but British nationals are eligible to apply for licences to drill for oil. All those points are matters which the Bill ought to cover adequately, and I cannot say at the moment that that is the case. There is one suggestion which I advocate wholeheartedly and which, I believe, is on the right lines. I do not think that an asset of this importance to the country ought to be under the control of any Government of the day, not because I have any imputation against either this, or any other Government of the past, but because there are certain things, and this is one of them, which are a great deal better under non-political control. The whole operation and control of the boring for oil in this country ought to be in the hands of a national trust composed of men drawn from all sources whose only qualification should be that individually they had the confidence of the country as a whole. They should be assisted by as much expert advice as they feel is necessary, and their functions should be to regulate the licences issued, to secure that the terms of the licences are fulfilled to the uttermost, to ensure that over production does not take place, and to enforce provisions for an adequate national reserve of oil, upon which I place a great deal of importance.
  By those means, I believe that it would be possible to make fair provisions for the individual landowner concerned, because under the scheme I have visualised I have made apparent the participation of landowners under the trust, which might be summarised under the following general principles. The whole boring areas should be divided under expert advice into units and allocated to each individual whose land lay within the unit in proportion to the acreage he possessed, whether there was or was not a bore hole on his property. The expenses should be provided first, by the licences of the land, and secondly, by the natural oil obtained by developing the individual group. Out of the sums received from this source, 51 per cent. should be paid to the Exchequer by the national trust and 49 per cent. divided among the

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  various landowners on the basis I have indicated. I hope that the House may hear, when the Minister winds up the Debate, that consideration of these points will be given by the Government. I believe them to be in certain circumstances extremely important, and, as the Bill stands, I shall support it on Second reading, only with a good deal of hesitation and reluctance. I should like to add my plea to that made by hon. Members earlier in the Debate for an inquiry into the why and the wherefore of the Whole matter.
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. WISE: I rise rather at a loss as to which side of the House in future is to rest my weary body, always having imagined that I was a Member of the Conservative party which had a considerable majority in this House, even though it was supporting a unified Government, but when I hear a Measure moved by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade received with thunderous applause by the Socialist and the Liberal parties, and in solemn silence by the majority of his own—[An HON. MEMBER: "No."] I hear an hon. Member say "No." I did not at the time hear his voice uplifted in enthusiastic applause, but I must have missed its delicate tone among the harsher notes of the supporters of my point of view here. I would suggest that no ground has as yet been advanced in this House as to why we should accept this Bill unless we accept with it the logical implications which were correctly pointed out by the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell), that if you nationalise oil supplies, why not nationalise everything else?
  The only logical support of the Bill has come from hon. Members of the Socialist party. They at least are not departing from principles which they have always preached and consistently supported. In spite of the fact that the hon. and gallant Member for North Leeds (Captain Peake), who, I am sorry to say, has left the Chamber, told the House that one of the first duties of an efficient Government would be to put their principles into the wastepaper basket and work by expediency, I still think that the only logical support of this Bill can come from hon. Members opposite. Naturally, nobody expects logicality
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  on anything from the Liberal party, which, as usual, is absent. The only thing we can gather from their speeches is that that group of peripatetic philosophers are ready for another move, and that they will be able to cross the narrow Gangway which separates them from their masters in the last Parliament. Whether they will be welcomed or not is not for me to discuss, but I am sure that it will be no great strain to them to make this move.
  What are the points advanced in support of this Bill? The first is that there is very little oil boring done in this country. That is perfectly true; but where, until quite recently, was the incentive to do anything? Until recently there was no question of a protective duty on oil supplies, and up to quite recent times the demand for oil was much smaller. There has been a large increase in the number of motor cars using oil and the increased use of oil for fuel and other purposes has been equally large. If anyone believes in private enterprise, then it is a perfectly natural consequence to say that if there is any oil to be got it will be got in the ordinary way without this form of State interference. It has been suggested that there is no harm in removing from a man that which he does not yet know he possesses. That is not a valid argument. It is true that the owner of land may not know that he has oil underneath it; the owner of agricultural land in Middlesex did not know that the Great West Road was to be built through his land, but his increment is just as much unearned as that of the owner of oil. If you are logical, then, if you confiscate the oil, you must confiscate the increment.
  Again, therefore, in logic, the only support of this Bill can come from hon. Members opposite. I cannot see why those who have consistently proclaimed that they support the right of the owner of property to increment which has accrued not because of his efforts but because it is his property can depart from that principle now. It is not a bad principle. I think it is a good principle. I only wish I had had the good fortune to purchase property on the site of an arterial road. Another reason advanced in favour of the Bill was that it only created one new precedent, as if that in itself was an excuse. In other words, after coquetting with Socialism the right hon. Gentleman has pro-

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  duced one illegitimate child. What did he think we expected him to produce? Did he think we expected him to produce triplets and nationalise two other industries as well as this? Might I suggest that this one unwanted bantling is large enough and ugly enough to take the place of many lesser ills. It is not only confiscation which we are being asked to support to-night but confiscation without compensation.
  Mr. RADFORD: Might I ask the hon. Member how it would be possible for any landowner who found that there was oil below his land and tapped it to know that he was drawing his oil and not oil from land of an adjoining landowner?
  Mr. WISE: The hon. Member has raised a point which was ably dealt with by the hon. Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington), that the supplies of oil are in fact localised. The principle in law is that where oil is found where the shaft is sunk it is the property of the person on whose land the shaft is sunk. That is the common law. We were informed by the President of the Board of Trade that the reason for the introduction of this Bill was the unsatisfactory state of the law that it was quite unfair that one man should have the sole benefit of oil under his property when it might belong to someone else. The Government cannot have it both ways. They cannot say that it is the law. and that it is not the law.
  I want to point out the dangers or this unfortunate method. If I were a Member of the party opposite, I should welcome the Bill as they did, and I hope that I should be as frank as they have been, and not be tempted to stoop to cunning, and adopt the arguments of the Government, that after all it was only one little thing which had never been done before except in the reign of King John, when gold and silver were reserved as Crown property. The conditions in King John's time were a little different from those of to-day. In those days property was extremely bady defined, it was difficult to know "whose property was which," and, therefore, a Measure by the Crown was equivalent to what we do in our own Colonies to-day, that is, reserve Crown rights on undeveloped land, on savage land, a very different thing from annexing a man's property. I hope the House will record its emphatic protest
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  against this principle. The Conservative party is attacked now, unfortunately, on many sides. It is in the position of a dying Caesar. Having first been stabbed by an envious Casca and his 99 associates in a manifesto, he turns and finds his favourite adopted son, the President of the Board of Trade, and looking at this new Brutus, he can only say, "You, even you, my son," and then fall dead at the foot of Gladstone's statue.
  8.34 p.m.
  Lord WILLOUGHBY de ERESBY: When I came to the House this afternoon I did not intend to speak, and I can assure hon. Members that I will not detain them very long. I realise only too well that it is extremely dangerous for anyone as inexperienced as myself to launch forth at any great length without adequate preparation and before having a complete understanding of the Bill. My only excuse for intervening in this Debate is that the President of the Board of Trade made a reference in his speech to what might be the consequences of oil being found in Rutland. My family happen to own land in Rutland, and I began to sit up and take notice and wonder what would be the consequence if oil were found there. When members of my family buy or sell land in Rutland, we do so, as the relatives of my family have always done in the past, on the understanding, with the possible exception of gold or silver, that everything above the land as far as heaven and everything below the land as far as hell belongs to us as rightful owners and lawful possessors of the land.
  It is true that on two occasions minerals have been found on our property, of which I have no doubt my ancestors were blissfully not aware at the time of the purchase. In one case, I do not hesitate to say that we are richer to-day from royalties having been paid owing to the discovery and working of those minerals. In the other case we would undoubtedly have been better off to-day if those minerals had been discovered subject to the provisions of the present Bill. Considerable damage has been done to the property, the amount paid in royalties is negligible, and there does not seem to be any hope of any further compensation being acquired from the destruction of the property. In the one ease we have been

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  winners, and in the other we have been losers, so I think we are now all square.
  I feel, as a landowner in Rutland, that I might possibly be allowed to look upon this question from an uninfluenced point of view. I have come to the opinion that it is in the interests of the country that in the development of petroleum and the working for petroleum the State should have some concern, and that unregulated and unrestricted control is not in the best interests of the nation or the countryside as a whole. As a landowner, I am prepared to hold my land under the conditions laid down in this Bill.
  There is one point which is a matter of some concern to me, and it is my real reason for rising now. I would like to have some assurance from the Government that adequate compensation will be given to owners of property adjacent to land on which oil has been discovered. Inquiries into past experience in other countries show that large tracts of country stretching very often 20 to 30 miles are seriously affected by oil works and also rendered in many cases completely unhabitable. A very near relative of mine raised the question in another place, and the substance of the answer which he received was that a man with his legal knowledge should know the answer. Since then, with the assistance of my near relative, I have looked up the Common Law of this country. We are still not thoroughly satisfied that the compensation which can he obtained by the owners of adjacent and surrounding property will be proportionate to the amount of damage which may be done—damage not only of a material value, but, what is equally important in many cases, of a sentimental value. I would ask the Minister who replies to give some assurance that this aspect of the question will be fairly and justly treated.
  8.39 p.m.
  Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDEMAN: I would like to beg the powers-that-be to send this Bill to a Select Committee upstairs. The Noble Lord the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) made a speech which held the whole House, and it proved to me that the rest of us do not know very much about it and that it is a question that should really be closely inquired into.
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  The Noble Lord was temperate; he did not try to overstate his case. He was listened to with that attention which proved that few of us, not even my hon. Friends on the Labour benches, knew much about oil wells. I have only seen oil wells in Rumania, and I must say they were not a beauty spot on the countryside. I am told by the Minister for Mines that the modern way of extracting oil is just as beautiful as the pylons all over the countryside. I would very much like to know what the town planning authorities will say about it if there is a chance of oil being found in a place like the Isle of Wight. What is the law on that subject? I would also like to know why this Bill is brought in at all. I have heard from a pretty good source that there is no oil in this country worth speaking of. Why, then, stir up the Conservative bee-hive by introducing this Bill?
  Mr. GROVES: To pour the oil on troubled waters.
  Sir N. STEWART SANDEMAN: You have to get the oil before you can pour it on troubled waters. Why introduce this Bill now? It makes us wonder what is behind it all. We have heard of vested interests and that somebody is going to get these oil rights. Is it not possible for the Minister to give us a wrinkle as to why the Bill is introduced? I do not suppose it will throw oil shares up a great deal if it is known that a great deal of money is to be spent in looking for oil which most of us do not believe exists. Why cannot the Minister take us into his confidence a little bit more and still that Conservative conscience which feels that the country is being rather led up the avenue. The best way to do that is to send the Bill to a Committee upstairs where it can be inquired into. If it does not go through by the end of the Session, the Government can always bring it in again, and they can then bring in a clean horse which will run with a good chance instead of this rather suspect animal.
  8.43 p.m.
  Mr. MOLSON: The hon. Member for Middleton and Prestwich (Sir N. Stewart Sandeman) has reverted to the allegation made by a number of hon. Members that there is something mysterious and inexplicable in the origin

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  of this Bill. We have been told clearly what is the reason for the introduction of the Bill. After a number of years in which nobody has taken great interest in the possibility of finding oil in this country, interest has again been aroused. That is a Parliamentary way of saying that after this Bill has been passed there is some likelihood of a survey being made in this country by some oil interests with a view to proving whether there is oil here or not.
  Sir N. STEWART SANDEMAN: If you take the analogy of gold, that is, of course, a Crown monopoly which nobody can mine except the Government. There is gold in this country, and nothing is done.
  Mr. MOLSON: I do not quite follow the relevance of that interruption. Gold is the property of the Crown, but, if that were not the case and there were a prospect of a gold rush, it is possible that a Bill similar to this Measure would be introduced to deal with gold. One hon. Member suggested that the Bill has been introduced because the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister for Mines wish to demonstrate the fact that they are still Liberals. If the President of the Board of Trade has one merit more than another—and I think the has nearly all the merits—it is that he appears to approach all matters from a purely practical point of view. Of that we can be assured. I have heard from another source that there is a certain oil company which would be willing to carry out the survey, if there were any prospect, after oil has been discovered, of a concession being given on workable conditions.
  It has been made plain by the right hon. Gentleman's speech that the present state of the law is extremely unsatisfactory. It is unsatisfactory for two principal reasons. First, although it is necessary for anyone who wishes to bore for oil to obtain a licence from the Board of Trade, he has after that to negotiate with each owner of land; and, secondly, he has no power to go to the Railway and Canal Commission in order to obtain those easements, surface rights and so on, which are necessary for the development of an oil concession. Those are, we have been told, the reasons why the Bill is being introduced. The present law also suffers from one great dis-
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  advantage which I should have thought would appeal to Members of the Conservative party. Under the present law a licence is only given to one individual for the opening of a well upon a certain piece of land, and, if in the area of that licence there are other landowners, all the royalties accrue to the owner of the land where the well happens to be.
  In the Debate, which has been extremely controversial, all speakers have agreed that, if oil is to be developed in this country, there must be centralised control, and that, whatever may be the size of a deposit of oil, that deposit must be developed in the most economical and scientific manner possible. It is because that has been agreed by all speakers that I hope the Bill will receive in Committee greater support than it has received so far.
  I may perhaps be allowed to contrast two oilfields which I have seen. I have seen the oilfield of Burma. There, in the case of about one square mile, in the middle of the area which is being developed by the Burma Oil Company, a concession is given to a small syndicate. When this syndicate had taken out its concession the Burma Oil Company found it in the interests of their shareholders to try and draw away as large a proportion as possible of the oil that was under the land of their neighbour. As a result—I have a photograph which I shall be pleased to show to any hon. Member—there are three lines of oil wells all along the border, which is a most extravagant and wasteful method of tapping oil. After that I went to Persia, where the whole of the oil in the southern part of the country has been given in the form of a single concession to the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. There one found a model of the subterranean deposits of oil, the geologists were calculating carefully the pressure of the gas and the level of the oil, and when gas had come up it was actually pumped down again into the earth in order to make certain that in future years the largest possible proportion of the oil deposits might be developed and worked. So it will be here, owing to this legislation and the way it has been framed, and the Board of Trade can decide how our oil deposits, if they exist, are to be developed.
  I sincerely congratulate the Government upon having adopted a method of

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  this kind, which I believe to be in accordance with the best and most enlightened administrative and scientific opinion all through the world. After what has been said by the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Wise), who claimed to speak for hon. Members on that side of the House but really only for a small section of them. I should like to assure the President of the Board of Trade that there is another section, also small, for which I can speak, who sincerely congratulate him and which is just as pleased at the introduction of the Bill as any Member of the Liberal or Socialist Opposition.
  Before I sit down I should like to say something upon the argument that has been put forward, that this Bill contains something in the nature of confiscation of existing rights. The argument appears to show a mentality which is not the true mentality of the Tory party. We have never been over concerned with abstract principles, but have always been anxious to deal with concrete problems in the best and fairest possible way. I hope that I accept most fully the duty of Conservatives to defend the legitimate rights of property as they exist, but that does not oblige us to allow new vested interests to spring up in the future. I have never denied that I regret very much that, owing to the decision of the court in Queen Elizabeth's reign, which court I think wrongly interpreted the law as it existed at that time, in the case of Northumberland versus the Queen, royalties ever got into private hands. I would say to the official Opposition that those royalties have been in private hands for so long, and have been bought and sold, that they have become a legitimate form of private property, and if any proposal were put forward—it has not yet been put forward—for the confiscation of those royalties without compensation, I would support my hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick.
  But I see no objection to applying the principle of this Bill to the case of coal, in parts of the country where coal is not known to exist or where there is so little likelihood of it being developed that it has not entered into the value of the land. This cannot be regarded as any real interference with the rights of property. There is here only a purely hypothetical and possible adventitious increment in
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  value. The hon. Member for Smethwick completely gave his case away when he referred to the fact that the British administration in colonial areas has taken over unoccupied undeveloped land, nationalised it and held it in the interests of the population as a whole. Surely, the analogy between that undeveloped land and the case of the petroleum which may or may not exist, and may or may not be workable, is a very close one, and that, providing there is no destruction of vested property rights which exist at the present time, there can be no objection to our laying down a law which will prevent, in the case of this development, rights accruing which most of us regret have accrued in the case of the coal-mining industry. Therefore, I congratulate the Government very warmly upon their Bill, and, although I hope that a few changes may be made in Committee, particularly for the purpose of preserving the amenities of neighbourhoods which it is proposed to develop for oil purposes, I hope that the Bill will be given a very large majority on its Second Reading.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: I think that the Minister in charge of the Bill can be congratulated upon its general reception to-day, and upon the narrowness of the ground on which the opposition to it has been based. Indeed, we find that the most unrelenting opponents of the Bill base their opposition on purely personal rights. There is no technical opposition to the Bill; there is no suggestion that it is not a workable Bill; the opposition is based entirely upon unwillingness to allow any invasion of private rights in what is regarded as the ownership of land and minerals. The note that has been struck by the opponents of the Bill is almost monotonous in that regard. I think that the House also can be congratulated upon the testimony which has been received from all quarters of the House that enlightened opinion here, and, we believe, in the country, is not going to tolerate that insistence in these days, and that, when private ownership and assumed private rights come into conflict with the national interest, they must give way to what is really the interest of the whole community.
  I was much interested by some of the speeches this afternoon, and especially by that of the hon. and gallant Member for

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  North Leeds (Captain Peake), who spoke as a coalowner with intimate knowledge of the fuel industry of this country and of the difficulties of operating the great mining industry in view of the manifold private interests which are involved in that industry. He drew upon an experience which is shared by Members on this side of the House as to the, difficulties of accommodating what are regarded as private interests with the interests of the industry and the national interest. There have been many audible meditations on the nature of property itself, and the limits to which property claims can be extended. The Noble Lord the Member for Rutland (Lord Willoughby de Eresby) took us to great heights, with which I am not very familar, and downwards to a region with which also I am not acquainted, and with which I hope never to become acquainted. He said that on his estates he claimed the right to go up and down as far as his imagination could carry him. That shows how utterly ridiculous are these claims. Even the most ancient Member of the House must realise that we live on a globe, and that on the other side of this globe there are people who hold rights of private property and could come at least half-way to meet us; and when the point is reached where the interests of the Antipodes and our own interests come into conflict, there is no superficial area; it is merely a point, and both sides would come to a point where there is no possibility of extension and no possibilty of establishing any kind of claim. That only shows how ridiculous are claims that you can go down as far as you like in the exercise of your rights of private ownership.
  But the most difficult thing in this regard was referred to by the Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer). He said that we were concerned with the rights of petroleum owners who had not yet been discovered. I am much more concerned with the fact that the petroleum has not yet been discovered. If it had been established that petroleum existed over any area, the claim of ownership would soon be determined by people who are interested, but I find it exceedingly difficult to acknowledge the claim of ownership of petroleum which has not been located or discovered in any way, and I cannot follow those who argue that they can
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  assert ownership over any object which has not been located or identified.
  We have heard this afternoon disquisitions upon rights of property in water, brine, and liquid substances of that kind, but the claim to the ownership of petroleum is now to be vested in His Majesty. Nobody objects to His Majesty exercising the right of ownership over all forms of wealth, because His Majesty in this regard represents the community, the whole of the people of this country. Because of the difficulty and impracticability of asserting private rights of ownership, the Bill says that, where petroleum is found, the rights shall be vested in His Majesty in the name of the law and of the authority of the State in this country. The Noble Lord who moved the Amendment spoke with a great deal of knowledge, proving that he had not only made a study of the immediate conditions of his own neighbourhood, in which he is interested as a landlord and as a prospector for oil, but also that he. knows a great deal about the occurrence of oil in the petroliferous areas of the world.
  I do not think I am venturing too far into the realm of the geologist when I say that oil has not been found in any large quantities in any of the older rocks which compose the crust of the earth. The rocks of the primary period do not contain oil. Those of the secondary period contain, I think, a little. But the greater part of the oil of the world is discovered in the tertiary formations, which are not very widely represented in this country. We have some tertiary rocks, but not those peculiar formations in which oil has been discovered. A large extent of our Island is covered with the older formations, from the coal measures downwards, but we are not so largely furnished with the formations in which oil is usually found in the oil-bearing regions of the world.
  The Noble Lord gave an explanation of the cause of the existence of oil, and described its history. We are all familiar with the history of coal; the Noble Lord has extended our knowledge by giving the version of geologists of the existence and history of the liquid form, namely, oil. This combination of hydrocarbons, which is almost identical with the solid fuel that we know as coal, exists in a liquid state, not in the same geological epochs or formations, and not due to the

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  same form of organic decomposition which produced our coal measures. But neither the Noble Lord nor anyone else standing here for any short period of time could explain the various conditions under which this mobile fuel exists, not fixed and stratified and laid down in its position for all time by Nature's processes, as coal is. This petroleum, which moves about and which occupies interstices in the crust of the earth under conditions where a great deal of folding and fracture has taken place, cannot be located and held to be the personal property of any one person. Indeed, when the existence of this fluid has been determined, it is very difficult to know, without a very wide survey, upon whose particular piece of property you will put your borehole and draw the oil from any known area. The hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) and I went to Russia in 1925 and spent some time in the Baku oilfield. We found they were doing very considerable work in surveying that almost devastated oil bearing region. We found that there had been 250 companies operating on a few square miles of land, one boring on an anticline here, the other on a syncline there, the convolutions of the ground lending themselves to all kinds of changes in the disposition of the liquid reservoirs themselves and leading to all kinds of disappointments in the operation of the respective companies. After the revolution, when the Russian Government came into the possession of these oil measures, they had to adopt a plan by which those 250 separate operating companies could be brought under one control, in order to plan surveys for future operations. We recognise the difficulty of establishing the private exploitation of oil deposits under those conditions. There is the difficulty of determining to whom a particular area of oil belongs and there is the difficulty, having bored a hole in a certain spot, of determining how far you will draw on the resources of neighbouring areas, and whether, because you have bored on the surface of your own estate, you are entitled to draw oil from underneath your neighbours' estate and despoil him of the opportunity of exploiting the oil. There is the question of flooding. If you take oil out something takes its place and it is usually water.
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  We have heard a good deal about these private rights and I am sure they have not been closely enough examined in the past. There is the story of the Kent coalfield. A very early geologist who had a remarkable insight into the problems of geology, a man named Godwin Austen, in 1845 or 1847, after a considerable study of the formation of strata extending from Ireland through South Wales into the South of England, to the North of France, Belgium and Germany made the deduction, which it was very difficult to arrive at in those days, that the chalk in Kent lay immediately upon coal measures and that, when the chalk had been bored, coal would be found immediately underneath. He was scoffed at, and among those who derided him with the most contempt were the landowners of Kent. He was followed by a better known geologist, Boyd Dawkins, who proved that his friend's theory was tenable and bore-holes were sunk. The landowners opposed the sinking of shafts. They did not want coal to be found in Kent at all. They said Kent was the garden of England, a county for apples and hops, and it was no coalfield and they obstructed it as strongly as they could, but ultimately the existence of a vast coalfield was proved and has now become known to the whole world. There is an example of the landowners' obstruction to the development of our mineral resources. No one can say that the landowner in Kent has the slightest title to claim royalties for coal found under those conditions.
  I doubt the existence of this liquid fuel. With my limited knowledge of geology I do not see these vast stores of oil underneath the surface of our country, but if it is found, it does not belong to any landowner, who has never made the slightest contribution toward the knowledge of petrology and the means by which oil can be discovered and exploited. Hon. Members have spoken of compensation. If I understand English, compensation means a payment to balance a loss. I would ask those who claim compensation what they lose if the oil is taken. Hon. Members have made very strong claims for the recognition of compensation for amenities. We know how badly marred the surface of the country is by industrial operations, but do the representatives of the land-

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  lords believe that they are the only people who suffer loss of amenities? I am a nature lover as much as any landowner. Why should a landowner be paid because a beautiful valley has been made haggard and ugly. If there is a loss of amenities, why should not I be given compensation? I certainly am not objecting to compensation for amenities but the compensation should be paid to a public fund, from which there should be promoted the largest possible measure of repair for the loss of amenities. We do not criticise the Bill for its general machinery. I am not as strongly of the opinion as some on this side of the House that this is Socialism. It is not my Socialism. My Socialism goes very much further. I shall shock the House of Commons some day, but for the moment I know it is no use talking about Socialism to the defenders of landlordism and capitalism whom I see before me. I support the Bill not because it is Socialistic but because it is the only practical plan for the exploitation of whatever lies beneath the surface of the country.
  9.14 p.m.
  Mr. E. BROWN: I would point out to some of those who oppose the Bill that, merely because certain propositions are unwelcome to them, to argue that this is Socialism is a very dangerous thing to do, for if this is, as the Government believe, a practical proposition, a wise proposition and a right proposition, if you are going to label that Socialism you run the danger of making Socialism popular, and that is the last thing that I or any supporter of the Government wants to do. I suggest that no Member of this House can understand the meaning of the term "Socialism" in any of. its varying classical expressions, and compare that theory with what is in this Bill. It is the very opposite. It is true that in the heart of the Bill the assumption by the Crown of the mineral right in petroleum is nationalisation, but nationalisation is not Socialism. It depends entirely on the purpose for which it is applied. For what are we applying this nationalisation of minerals? Not for Socialism, but to provide the only practical basis on which private enterprise can operate. It is the conclusion of the Government that there is no alternative to this particular proposition if private endeavour in the search
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  for and winning and use of oil are to have a fair opportunity of operating in this island.
  The hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) is quite right. I think the Government can congratulate themselves upon the varied support which they have had for the Bill in this Debate. There have been a number of speeches against the Bill, representing approximately the same view, although not quite the same, and those who analyse those speeches carefully will find that there is more than one inconsistency to be found in the arguments used. This Bill has a single basis, but the arguments of those who oppose the Bill have varying bases. There is the appeal to fear, there is the appeal to suspicion, there is the appeal to prejudice, there is the appeal to interest, there is the appeal upon the ground of organisation and detail, and there is, finally, that very fine appeal, which is always listened to with pleasure and interest whenever it is made with sincerity, the appeal to conviction. All these varying appeals have been heard in the course of this Debate, but let us look at the inconsistencies.
  Some of these appeals have been based on the statement that no oil in any degree will be found to justify operations of this kind in this island, and inside of five minutes the same speakers have been saying that you will take away millions and millions of pounds' worth of oil. We have had the appeal, first of all, to the assumed fear that no oil exists within our little island, and the same speakers, within a moment or two, have been appealing to us not to do certain things because of the gravity of the financial interests affected. I suggest that the House will be wise to brush aside inconsistencies of that kind, for things which are fundamentally inconsistent are fundamentally frivolous, and arguments of that kind are frivolous. You can build nothing upon them. Let us look at the Bill itself. I am asked by speaker after speaker why the Bill has been introduced.
  Captain WATERHOUSE: Hear, hear‡
  Mr. BROWN: The hon. and gallant Member for South Leicester (Captain Waterhouse) says "Hear, hear"; and why? The noble Lord the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) made a very remarkable speech.

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  We are all sorry enough that he does not take a larger share in the general Debates in this House, when he gives us his specialised knowledge. He feels very strongly about this, but I think he will find, on reflection, that that speech was marred by suspicion. He asked why the Bill was introduced. For no other reason than this, that the Government, surveying the situation and the needs of the present time, having had indications of renewed interest in the search for oil, have surveyed the whole ground, have taken the best advice, have exhaustively examined all possible alternatives, and have produced this Bill for the assent of both Houses of Parliament and of the country as the only practical scheme which will enable a thorough search for and controlled development of this mineral oil to be made in our own country. That is the only reason, and if my hon. Friends do not accept that, I can only reply that surely to build opposition to a Bill on grounds of suspicion of some undefined interest behind, which has no foundation in fact, is not a sound basis on which to oppose a great piece of constructive legislation.
  I may remind the House that this Measure has had an unusually detailed examination in another place and has now-come down to us. Why? I suggest, for these five reasons—first of all, that it is generally agreed that if there are subterranean treasures in oil, it is in the national interest that they should be won, worked, and used to the full; second, that these processes should be carried out by competent and capable persons; third, that the development should not be an indiscriminate and haphazard scramble, but a controlled and unified process; fourth, that it should involve the smallest possible interference with our amenities; and last—and I think this will be generally agreed, although I gather that the Noble Lord the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) does not agree with it—that none of these proposals will be realised under the present law and in present conditions, as the difficulties confronting private endeavour are too many and the law, as has already been pointed out, in some respects apparently is too inequitable to give competent, practical persons any incentive to do this most valuable national service.
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  The Noble Lord in one respect misled the House, I am quite sure unwittingly, but he really did misrepresent the answers given to him in this House. He based the major part of his argument, which was concerned about the present situation, on the assumption that the very introduction of this Bill had held up development. If the Noble Lord will reread the very detailed and full answers that I gave him in this House—I will give hon. Members the dates, as I do not wish to detain it too long by reading the whole of these long answers, but the first was given on the 9th April and the second on the 26th April of this year—I think he will come to the conclusion that unwittingly he misled the House this afternoon. We had not held up a single licence until the Government had decided to introduce this Bill. Two were refused because the applicants were not considered fit persons to hold them, and all the suspicion appears to be based on the fact that it is impossible, from the public interest on the one hand—and, I may add, equally in the interests of the public on the other hand—that names on the one hand and areas on the other should be stated in advance of the licence being granted.
  The Noble Lord the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Lord Willoughby de Eresby) gave the complete answer in his most admirable speech, on the whole supporting the Bill, just now, when there were only too few to listen to it. He had not intended to speak, but because my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade used the county of Rutland merely as an illustration, thinking it was the illustration most unlikely to mislead anybody, the Noble Lord said he pricked up his ears. Of course he did, and so would the general public prick up their ears if names and areas were given in advance of licences being granted. It is the very fact of the unknown quality about petroleum under the land that makes it essential that this shall be done by responsible people and by those responsible to Parliament, under regulations, as are laid down in this Bill, approved by Parliament, before a single licence can be granted—
  Viscount WOLMER: If the Government are going to have a monopoly of the oil, what does it matter if people prick up their ears? Why should not there be two applicants for a licence instead of one?
  Mr. BROWN: There may be 20, but the Noble Lord will know that it will not always be in the public interest to distribute this information.
  Viscount WOLMER: Why not?
  Mr. BROWN: The answer must be obvious in the nature of the problem. I suggest that only prejudice can fail to appreciate that answer. Let us see the problem with which the Government, were faced. Previous Governments have found it necessary to pass special legislation with regard to petroleum. The Act which is now administered is administered by my Department, which is a small but competent one. I do not think anyone who knows anything about the valuable work done by our experts in advising British subjects all over the Empire and all over the world will fail to appreciate what I have said. When the Noble Lord was making his speech, what was his proposition? That the Government should take advice. The Government have very skilled expert advice at their disposal and, although the Noble Lord gave us this afternoon a very able analysis based on personal knowledge with regard to what happened in drilling two boreholes in Derbyshire, that is a very small basis on which to build conclusions for the whole field of this country or the varied processes and methods of dealing with oil throughout the world. Previous Governments, I say, have found it necessary to enact special legislation. The Act of 1918 is at present being administered by the Board of Trade and by the Secretary for Mines. What is the position now? The Noble Lord asked questions about the number of licences. When he told the House that the present situation gives ample incentive, the answer is in the record of the last 15 years. The answers I Have given to him prove that in this period 10 licences have been applied for, seven of them have been granted, four of them have lapsed, and there are only the three now named in the Schedule of the Bill which operate.
  The very nature of the oil under the surface brings a whole series of complications in regard to surface rights and, therefore, those who drafted the Act of 1918 and carried it though both Houses of Parliament laid it down that no one could bore for oil in this country except by the possession of a licence from the
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  Government? What does that mean? It means that when a licence is applied for, it may be for an area four or five miles square or more, there are, as my right hon. Friend said, in some cases thousands of conflicting surface rights. In some cases there are scores. The present law makes the position that once one licensee has been given the right to bore no other person can bore inside that area. No other landowner can bore on his own land. This seems to be approved by my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire. I was surprised that he should appear to be arguing that as long as one surface owner got the royalty the other 90 or 900 did not matter.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I hesitate to interrupt my hon. Friend, but he is misrepresenting the case. No case of 90 or 900 royalty owners in a given borehole can arise.
  Mr. BROWN: I am not talking about a given borehole, but of a licensed area, and I shall contend, with all respect to the Noble Lord, that there are cases where there may be scores or hundreds of surface rights. That is the present situation, and the fact that these arrangements in 15 years have given us no adequate search for oil, and in the judgment of the Government are not likely to give us any adequate search, has led the Government to say that three things are necessary: first, the settlement of royalty questions as a basis; secondly, licences for areas wide enough to get unified control with due regard to the amenities not merely of the neighbourhood of boreholes, but as regards the working and transporting of the product; and, thirdly, that if competent and capable persons are to be encouraged to develop oil in our country there must be sufficient working facilities granted under the law, so that they will not be hampered unreasonably in their search.
  The Bill proposes three main things. First of all, it proposes to vest property in petroleum in the Crown, and I notice one of my hon. Friends was saying that the law was at present that petroleum was the property of the surface owner. I should not contest that, but neither would I say that it is so. I do not think any Member of the House is entitled to say that it is so. The fact is that it has not been laid down in a court of law, and there are conflicting opinions about it.

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  The House was warned by the late Mr. Bonar Law in 1919 quite frankly concerning the doubt about this matter. In 1919 the Attorney-General of that time, who is now the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Hewart, said that in his opinion it was so, but Mr. Bonar Law, about the same time, came down to the House and said the matter was under consideration, and, pending a decision, it was the policy of the Government to withhold licences. Until the Government had reached a decision the purchasers of land and petroleum rights were warned not to assume that the ownership of petroleum was vested in the holders of the surface rights. That is the opinion of a responsible Minister of the Crown, not a decision of a court of law. I am being, as I always am, quite frank and stating the case fairly. It has not been stated fairly by all speakers to-day. It has been said that the law is that it is the property of the surface owner, and I say that it is a moot point. An hon. Member spoke about the removal of doubts. This Bill is brought forward to remove all doubts and to make it quite clear.
  We are asked to reject the Bill because it is said to be confiscation. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower, who said it was not Socialism as he understood it, was a little more careful than some of his friends on that bench, because it will be clear from the Schedule that there are three exceptions to the vesting of ownership in the Crown. I expected to be twitted with a logical, or at least a verbal, inconsistency in exempting these three licence areas from the Bill. Why was it done? Because the Government meant to make it clear that if there were what might be termed an admitted right they would admit it. The hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Molson) stated the situation quite accurately. Where admitted rights are found they are to be admitted and, of course, compensated for if they are taken away. That is why the three exceptions are in the Schedule of the Bill, and I do not think thoughtful Members can fail to understand that the Government have taken every point very carefully into consideration. Hon. Members talk of confiscation. Confiscation of what? The fact is, that not a single acre of land in this country has changed hands at the added value of one single coin because oil was suspected to
  312
  be underneath it. Not one single acre to-morrow morning will change hands for that reason. Since the determination of the royalty question is vital if there is to be proper, unified control and development by those who are capable of doing it for the national interests, the Government say that this is the only practical basis on which it can be done. I would ask the House to reflect for one moment on the whole of the Debate and to note that, apart from the suggestion that the present system might go on, and apart from two suggestions about procedure, not one solitary Member has put forward any constructive alternative to the proposition which forms the basis of the Bill.
  Mr. RHYS: Will the hon. Member be good enough to say why he refuses to allow his House to ratify any licences granted, even if it is done in secret? Is it not a fact that the House entirely abrogates its right over any licences granted?
  Mr. BROWN: The answer is in the machinery of the Bill. I am going to explain what the machinery of the Bill is. The machinery of the Bill provides that the Board of Trade shall be given power to issue licences, but before a licence can be granted under the terms of the Bill regulations have to be made. Those regulations have to be laid on the Table of this House for 28 days, and they can be challenged, debated and annulled by this House, if the House does not think that they are adequate and suitable for the purpose. No licence, then, would be granted until the House has had an opportunity to discuss all the particulars to be laid down in the licence as to working, and the conditions which are laid down in the Bill. Further, when a licence is granted, what is the position? It seems to be assumed that the whole of the Bill runs upon the basis of compulsion. That is a complete misreading of the Bill. The basis of the Bill is voluntary agreement. It is because the Mines (Working Facilities) Act, 1923, is not fully appreciated by hon. Members that they appear to assume that the whole procedure of the Bill rests upon the basis of compulsion. Nothing could be further from the fact. The machinery is, that once the Board of Trade is satisfied, under the terms of the regulations

  313
  approved by this House, that the licensee is a fit and proper person to exercise the right to drill, as the law now stands, he will make his own voluntary arrangements with the surface owners in the area with which he has to deal.
  Mr. G. BALFOUR: The hon. Member said "approved by this House." Does he not mean, not disapproved by the House?
  Mr. BROWN: I stand corrected. In a matter of this kind, especially in regard to the first regulations, Parliament will be very careful to see that they meticulously examine the regulations. I am sure that the Noble Lord and those who follow him will see that they avail themselves of the opportunity of examination and that Parliament will annul them if the regulations are found not to be competent for the purpose. I am sure that they will take full advantage of the machinery provided. The licensee will make his voluntary arrangements with the surface owners. That, surely, means that if we are to have licences for areas wide enough, and if we are to have unified control, with due regard to amenity, it will be the best endeavour of every licensee to come to the best possible arrangement with the surface owners before he thinks of applying under the machinery of the Mines (Working Facilities) Act, 1923. Even then, the House must understand that the machinery of the Act of 1923 cannot operate unless the court, that is, the Railway and Canal Commission, which is a branch of the High Court, is satisfied as an over-riding condition that it is in the national interest that such facilities should be granted.
  There are four special conditions in the Act of 1923 which have to be satisfied before application can be made to the court. In addition to those four special conditions, which are contained in Section 4 (1), there are two other additional propositions which we have laid down in the Bill, (1) that the Railway and Canal Commission must have regard to amenities, and (2) that if compulsion is exercised for the granting of these ancillary rights, added compensation of not less than 10 per cent. must be awarded by the Commission, in addition to the compensation they would award in the ordinary way. In case some hon. Member thinks that this is cumbrous and costly machinery for the surface owner, let me
  314
  say that the Bill makes it clear that only in one case will the landowner have to pay his own costs. In no case will he have to pay the licensee's costs. If the court decides that it is in the national interests, having due regard to amenity and having been prepared to add the compensation under the law, and that the compensation assessed by the Commission is lower than an offer made in writing by the licensee to the surface owner, in that case only will the surface owner have to pay his own costs before the tribunal.
  There are a number of other details which it is not my duty to go into, but I suggest that, on reflection, thoughtful Members will come to the conclusion that it is very much in the national interest to have this search prosecuted. If, as some hon. Members have suggested, there is no likelihood of oil being found, the fears and suspicions of hon. Members need have no weight in the Division Lobby. If, on the other hand, there is national treasure in oil there, it is surely the duty of a National Government, before all other Governments, to see that obstacles, based on the present law and the present conditions, in the way of a competent search, are removed. The Bill has no inception except the Government's belief that at its root the policy of encouraging the search for domestic petroleum is in the national interest and that this Bill provides the only practical and fair way in which such a search can be carried out by competent and capable persons, with due regard to amenities.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: May I ask the hon. Member for a definite answer to the question that I put to him? Why were the Government unwilling to grant the five applications for licences which had been made while this Bill was pending? He says that I unintentionally misled the House.
  Mr. BROWN: I was reluctant to detain the House too long. Let me read the answer in full. It was given on 9th April:
  Marquess of HARTINGTON asked the Secretary for Mines how many applications for licences to bore for petroleum have been received in the last 10 years from British and foreign undertakings, respectively; and how many of each have been refused?
  Mr. E. BROWN: During the last 10 years, 10 formal applications for licences were received by the Petroleum Department, of

  315
  which two were granted, two were refused, one was withdrawn, and in the remaining cases the formalities connected with the issue of licences had for various reasons not been completed when the Government announced that pending the consideration of the Bill now before Parliament no further licences would be issued. A number of inquiries regarding licences have also been received during the last 10 years, which did not, however, proceed to the stage of a formal application. There is nothing in the Petroleum (Production) Act, 1918, under which licences have hitherto been granted, to prevent a foreign undertaking from applying for a licence, or from providing capital required by a licensee. It would appear that all the formal applications received were made by British concerns, but the Department has no information as to how far foreign interests might have been concerned in the applications or inquiries. It should be borne in mind that the amount of interest displayed in this question cannot be measured entirely by the number of applications received, but depends rather upon the standing of the applicants or inquirers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th April, 1934; cols. 17 and 18, Vol. 288.]
  Subsequently, on 26th April, there was a further question:
  "Marquess of HARTINGTON asked the Secretary for Mines the names of the five applicants for licences to bore for petroleum whose applications have been held up pending legislation; the dates of applications; the areas to which the applications applied; and why the applications could not be granted pending legislation?
  Mr. E. BROWN: All applications for licences under the Petroleum (Production) Act, 1918, were treated as confidential until the licence was issued, and I regret that I am not, therefore, in a position to furnish the particulars asked for in the first and third parts of the question. In reply to the second part, the dates of the applications were between January, 1931, and February, 1933. As regards the last part, the Government decided that as the whole situation in regard to the development of oil in this country is brought under review in the legislation now before Parliament, it was undesirable that any further licences should be granted until Parliament had had an opportunity of reaching a decision on the new legislation. Before a licence was issued under the 1918 Act, certain conditions and formalities had to be complied with, the more important of which were the furnishing of evidence that the applicants had acquired rights to enter on at least a portion of the area in respect of which a licence was sought, ability and willingness to undertake a certain amount of drilling, and the shape and dimensions of the area to be licensed. In each of the five cases some of these matters were outstanding when the Government announced their decision."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th April, 1934; cols. 1893 and 1894; Vol. 288.]
  316
  That is the, whole answer, and, as between the Noble Lord's speech and those answers, I leave the House to say whether this is not a fair statement of my reply to the Noble Lord.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: With all respect to my hon. Friend, in the answer which he has read at such unnecessary length he gave the figures two, two and one, which I believe make five. That number subtracted from 10 also leaves five. That is to say, five applications were outstanding. My hon. Friend has given a number of reasons why licences might be refused, but he has not given the reasons why these particular five licences were refused. He said that in every case some reason was given. May I press him for an answer on that point? It has been drawn to my notice that at least in one case a lease was signed, sealed and delivered, and nothing was wanting in order to start oil drilling except the permission of a Minister. Why was the licence refused?
  Mr. BROWN: That is the sole reason for the introduction of the Bill. Indications were given to the Government that renewed interest was being taken in the subject, and those were among the indications. It was in the light of this that the Government surveyed the whole problem and came to the conclusion, quite rightly I think, that it was not right to give any licence until the House had made up its mind whether the Government's Bill was or was not the right solution.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: May I ask whether the Government have been in consultation with any oil company prior to the production of the Bill? That is a question to which the House is entitled to have an answer.
  Mr. BROWN: The answer is that the Government, of course, have done what any Government must do; they have taken advice of every kind and form, to survey the whole field. Indeed we were charged in a speech by one of the Noble Lord's hon. Friends with having been idle in the matter. It is because we have surveyed the whole field that this is being done.
  Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 29.

  Division No. 294.]

  AYES.

  [3.39 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe

  Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C,)

  Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

  Balllle, Sir Adrian W. M.

  Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

  Agnew, Lieut.-Com, P. G.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Bernays, Robert

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Blindell, James

  Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Balniel, Lord

  Boulton, W. W.

  Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

  Ansley, Lord

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Aske, Sir Robert William

  Beaumont, M. W. Bucks., Aylesbury)

  Boyce, H. Lesile

  Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

  Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Hartland, George A.

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

  Procter, Major Henry Adam

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

  Pybus, Sir Percy John

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

  Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

  Browne, Captain A. C.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Ramsbotham, Herwald

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Hepworth, Joseph

  Ramsden, Sir Eugene

  Bullock, Captain Malcolm

  Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

  Rankin, Robert

  Burgin. Dr. Edward Leslie

  Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Burnett, John George

  Hornby, Frank

  Ray, Sir William

  Burton, Colonel Henry Walter

  Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

  Cadogan, Hon. Edward

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham-

  Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Reid, David D. (County Down)

  Caporn, Arthur Cecil

  Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

  Remer, John R.

  Carver, Major William H.

  Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)

  Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hurd, Sir Percy

  Rickards, George William

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Jamleson, Douglas

  Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

  Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

  Ruggies-Brise, Colonel E. A.

  Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

  Kerr, Hamilton W.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Christle, James Archibald

  Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

  Runge, Norah Cecil

  Clayton, Sir Christopher

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Law, Sir Alfred

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Leckie, J. A.

  Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

  Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

  Conant, R. J. E.

  Lees-Jones, John

  Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

  Cook, Thomas A.

  Leighton, Major B. E. p.

  Salt, Edward W.

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

  Copeland, Ide

  Lewis, Oswald

  Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Liddall, Walter S.

  Savery, Samuel Servington

  Crooke, J. Smedley

  Lindsay, Noel Ker

  Selley, Harry R.

  Crossley, A. c.

  Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe.

  Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G.(Wd.Gr'n)

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

  Loftus, Pierce C.

  Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

  Davison, Sir William Henry

  Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

  Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Mabane, William

  Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  Denville, Alfred

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Seaham)

  Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dlne, C.)

  Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Smithers, Sir Waldron

  Dickie, John P.

  Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

  Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

  Drewe, Cedric

  McLean, Major Sir Alan

  Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

  Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

  McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

  Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

  Duggan, Hubert John

  Magnay, Thomas

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

  Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

  Maitland, Adam

  Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)

  Dunglass, Lord

  Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

  Stones, James

  Eady, George H.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Edmondson, Major Sir James

  Milne, Charles

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. Waiter

  Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tfd & Chisw'k)

  Thomas, James p. L. (Hereford)

  Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

  Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

  Touche, Gordon Cosmo

  Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

  Morgan, Robert H.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

  Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Fraser, Captain Sir Ian

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

  Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

  Morrison, William Shephard

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Moss, Captain H. J.

  Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

  Gledhill, Gilbert

  Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Gluckstein, Louis Halle

  Munro, Patrick

  Watt, Captain George Steven H.

  Goff, Sir Park

  Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour

  Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

  Whyte, Jardine Bell

  Granville, Edgar

  Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

  Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

  Peake, Captain Osbert

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Graves, Marjorie

  Pearson, William G.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Peat, Charles U.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Guy, J. C. Morrison

  Percy, Lord Eustace

  Wise, Alfred R.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Perkins, Walter R. D.

  Womersley, Sir Waiter

  Hales, Harold K.

  Peters, Dr. Sidney John

  Worthington, Dr. John V.

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  Petherick, M.

  Hanbury, Cecil

  Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Pike, Cecil F.

  Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir

  Harbord, Arthur

  Potter, John

  George Penny.

  NOES.

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Davies, Stephen Owen

  Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Ztl'nd)

  Banfield, John William

  Dobbie, William

  Harris, Sir Percy

  Batey, Joseph

  Edwards, Charles

  Hicks, Ernest George

  Brown, C. W- E. (Notts., Mansfield)

  Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

  Holdsworth, Herbert

  Buchanan, George

  Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

  Jenkins, Sir William

  Cape, Thomas

  Gardner, Benjamin Walter

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Curry, A. C.

  Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

  Lawson, John James

  Daggar, George

  Griffth, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

  Leonard, William

  Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

  Griffths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

  Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Hail, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Logan, David Gilbert

  208

  209

  Lunn, William

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

  Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

  Mainwaring, William Henry

  Smith, Tom (Normanton)

  Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

  Mander, Geoffrey le M.

  Thorne, William James

  Wilmot, John

  Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

  Maxton, James

  West, F. R.

  Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Pickering, Ernest H

  White, Henry Graham

  Rea, Walter Russell

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Mr. John and Mr. G. Macdonald.

  Division No. 295.]

  AYES.

  [9.51 p.m.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke

  Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)

  Munro, Patrick

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

  Nathan, Major H. L.

  Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

  Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W.Riding)

  Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Agnew, Lieut.-Com. p. G.

  Groves, Thomas E.

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

  Albery, Irving James

  Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

  Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

  Appiln, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  O'Donovan, Dr. William James

  Aske, Sir Robert William

  Guy, J. C. Morrison

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hales, Harold K.

  Owen. Major Goronwy

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Peake, Captain Osbert

  Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  Pearson, William G.

  Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

  Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

  Peat, Charles U.

  Banfield, John William

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Penny, Sir George

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Harbord, Arthur

  Percy, Lord Eustace

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

  Harris, Sir Percy

  Perkins, Walter R. D.

  Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

  Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

  Peters, Dr. Sidney John

  Batey, Joseph

  Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

  Petherick, M.

  Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th, C.)

  Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n.Bilston)

  Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

  Hepworth, Joseph

  Potter, John

  Blindell, James

  Holdsworth, Herbert

  Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Hornby, Frank

  Preston, Sir Walter Rueben

  Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

  Howard, Tom Forrest

  Radford, E. A.

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

  Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

  Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

  Ramsbotham, Herwald

  Brass, Captain Sir William

  Hume, Sir George Hopwood

  Ramsden, Sir Eugene

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

  Hurd, Sir Percy

  Rea, Walter Russell

  Brown, Col. B. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

  Reid, David D. (County Down)

  Browne, Captain A. C.

  Jamieson, Douglas

  Reid, William Allan (Derby)

  Burnett, John George

  Jenkins, Sir William

  Rickards, George William

  Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

  John, William

  Robinson, John Roland

  Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

  Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

  Cape, Thomas

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

  Caporn, Arthur Cecil

  Jones, Lewis (Swansea. West)

  Rothschild, James A. de

  Carver, Major William H.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Christie, James Archibald

  Ker, J. Campbell

  Runge, Norah Cecil

  Clarke, Frank

  Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

  Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

  Clayton, Sir Christopher

  Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Lawson, John James

  Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

  Cook, Thomas A.

  Leckie, J. A.

  Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

  Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

  Cripps, Sir Stafford

  Lees-Jones, John

  Salmon, Sir Isldore

  Crooke, J. Smedley

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Salt, Edward W.

  Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

  Leonard, William

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Lewis, Oswald

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

  Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

  Liddall, Walter S.

  Savery, Samuel Servington

  Culverwell, Cyril Tom

  Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

  Selley, Harry R.

  Curry, A. C.

  Lindsay, Noel Ker

  Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

  Daggar, George

  Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Davidson. Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

  Lloyd, Geoffrey

  Shute, Colonel J. J.

  Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'ndsw'th)

  Sinclair, Mal. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)

  Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

  Loder, Captain J. de Vere

  Skelton, Archibald Noel

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Loftus, Pierce C.

  Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Smith, Tom (Normanton)

  Davies, Stephen Owen

  Lovat-Pierce, James Alexander

  Smithers, Sir Waldron

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

  Somervell, Sir Donald

  Dickie, John p.

  Lunn, William

  Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

  Dobbie, William

  Mabane, William

  Spencer, Captain Richard A.

  Drewe, Cedric

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  Spens, William Patrick

  Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

  MacDonald. Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

  Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)

  Eady, George H.

  McEntee, Valentine L.

  Stones, James

  Edge, Sir William

  McKeag, William

  Strauss, Edward A.

  Edmondson, Major Sir James

  McLean, Major Sir Alan

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Edwards, Charles

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

  McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

  Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

  Macmillan, Maurice Harold

  Turton, Robert Hugh

  Elliston, Captain George Sampson

  Magnay, Thomas

  Ward. Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

  Mainwaring, William Henry

  Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

  Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

  Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

  Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

  Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

  Mallalleu, Edward Lancelot

  Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour

  Fermoy, Lord

  Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

  White, Henry Graham

  Fleming, Edward Lascelles

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Whyte, Jardine Bell

  Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

  Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

  Fraser, Captain Sir Ian

  Milne, Charles

  Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

  Fuller, Captain A. G.

  Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'trd & Chlsw'k)

  Williams. Thomas (York, Don Valley)

  Gardner, Benjamin Walter

  Mitcheson, G. G.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertl'd)

  George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

  Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

  Womersley, Sir Walter

  Gillett, Sir George Masterman

  Moreing, Adrian C.

  Worthington, Dr. John V.

  Gluckstein, Louis Halle

  Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

  Goff, Sir Park

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Morrison, William Shepherd

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Graves, Marjorie

  Moss, Captain H. J.

  Captain Austin Hudson and Dr.

  Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

  Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

  Morris-Jones

  318

  319

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Law, Sir Alfred

  Stourton, Hon. John J.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

  McKie, John Hamilton

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Nail-Cain, Hon. Ronald

  Willams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks.,Newb'y)

  Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Peterst'ld)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Hugh

  Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Wise, Alfred R.

  Dixon, Rt. Hon. Herbert

  Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

  Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

  Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

  Ray, Sir William

  Everard, W. Linday

  Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

  Marquess of Hartington and Mr.

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Scone, Lord

  M. Beaumont.

  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[Captain Margesson.]

  PETROLEUM (PRODUCTION) [MONEY].
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.
  [Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]
  Resolved,
  "That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to vest in the Crown the property in petroleum and natural gas within Great Britain and to make provision with respect to the searching and boring for and getting of petroleum and natural gas, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise—

  (a) the payment into the Exchequer of all moneys received by the Board of Trade under the said Act; and

  (b) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of all expenses of the Board of Trade under the said Act."—(King's Recommendation signified.)—Mr. E. Brown].

  Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

  MILK BILL.
  Further considered in Committee [Progress, 13 th June].
  [Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]
  10.3 p.m.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  Before we deal with the first Amendment, I have a question which I should like to put to the Patronage Secretary. It is now three minutes past 10, and, seeing that Members of the National Government have occupied some 80 or 90 per cent. of the whole of the time to-day up to the present, I would like to know how far he hopes. to go with the Milk Bill.
  10.4 p.m.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Captain Margesson): When the business was announced for to-day the Government said they would like to get the Second Reading of the Petroleum Bill, to conclude the Committee stage of the Milk Bill and to conclude the Committee stage of the British Sugar (Subsidy) Bill. We have now completed the first part of our task. I always like to feel that I am meeting the wishes of the House, and I think that if we abandon the final part of our task and content ourselves with getting the Committee stage of the Milk Bill the Government will be satisfied. We made a good start a few nights ago, there is only a little left to be done, and I hope that the Committee stage may be concluded without the House having to sit unduly late.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: I hope the right hon. and gallant Gentleman appreciates that there are several Amendments on the Order Paper which are of vital importance, and, much as we desire not to waste time, I rather fear that his reply means that the Committee will have to sit till a late hour.
  Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and negatived.

  MILK BILL.

    CLAUSE 11.—(Contributions from Exchequer towards expenses of milk marketing boards.)
    10.5 p.m.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I beg to move, in page 14, line 6, to leave out "he thinks fit" and to insert "Parliament may determine."
    It may be convenient if in moving this Amendment I refer to the two Amendments in my name later on the Paper, which relate to the same point. If this Amendment were passed it would be necessary to insert words providing for some other kind of control by Parliament

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    over the proceedings of the Minister. The subsequent Amendments to which I refer, therefore suggest that instead of the particulars of these schemes being merely laid before Parliament as suggested in Sub-section, (3) of the Clause, they should be laid before each House of Parliament and should not take effect unless within 20 days of their presentation they are approved by resolution of each House. I take this opportunity of expressing the hope that some day Government draftsmen and Ministers will realise that, until some such provision as this is normally placed in Bills submitted to this House, someone on one side of the House or the other will always protest that there should be more control by the House of Commons over public expenditure.
    It will be seen that this Amendment is supported on the Paper by the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg), who is, I might almost say, the father of this whole scheme, and who unfortunately is absent from the country on business. He has asked me to say that he hopes the Committee will realise that, so far as his own proposals with regard to milk are concerned, he thinks it vital that the House of Commons should maintain some control over expenditure under this Clause. The Clause seeks to provide, on a pound for pound basis, up to £500,000 of public money for assisting milk marketing boards to encourage the drinking of milk. There are two ways I understand in which it is intended to do this. First, there is ordinary advertising, and secondly, there is the increased use of milk by school children. As the Bill stands the Minister would be empowered to spend the £500,000 without the House of Commons knowing what proportion was spent on purely advertising and publicity purposes and what proportion was spent on the school children. It seems to us that when the Minister decides how the money is to be allocated between those two methods, the House of Commons should be entitled to approve of it. If we are to give a sum running up to £500,000 to these boards for general purposes of publicity and advertising, the House ought to have the right of an affirmative Resolution.
    I recognise that in the later Amendment we mention both Houses of Parliament, but I do not stress that point. I want the House of Commons at any rate to have the right to approve. We are doing
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    something here which is new in the technique of public finance. We are going to grant a large sum of money—we do not know what proportion of the £500,000, but probably the larger part—to a board which is not a public corporation in the same sense as various gas and electricity undertakings, the amount of whose profit is statutorily limited. We are to pay this money to a board which is trading for the profit of the people concerned and to the amount of that profit there is no limit as far as this part of the Bill is concerned. That seems to be something which ought not to be left as this Clause provides, to be dealt with by the Minister as he thinks fit.
    That is the gist of the argument. We ought to try to maintain, under this new system which is growing up—because I have no doubt that this proposal will be made a precedent—the principle that when public money is given to boards, however worthily constituted and however worthy their objects, if those boards are trading for private profit there should be at some stage some control by the House of Commons. I am not particularly concerned as to the exact form of words which the Minister would think it wise to adopt for that purpose. But in this Clause he gets right away by giving us no control at all and that alone makes it important that we should adopt some kind of check from the House of Commons. I hope therefore, he may find it possible to agree to the insertion of some words on these lines, especially when he bears in mind that our proposal has the support of the hon. Member for Altrincham.
    10.13 p.m.
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): I am obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for having so succinctly put a point which I know he considers to be of great importance and one which he has submitted on more than one occasion, namely, the point of Parliamentary control. I hope to satisfy him that his object is met in the proposals before the Committee. I was interested to hear him say that as long as proposals in this form were brought forward, an Amendment of this kind would always be moved by him or some other hon. Member on one side or the other, while almost in the next sentence, he admitted that in this

    323
    Amendment he was proposing to adopt the unprecedented course of giving another place control over moneys provided by the House of Commons. That could not stand constitutionally and therefore his Amendment would have to be drawn in some other form. I do not stand upon that, however, because that is a matter which I have no doubt my hon. and gallant Friend would himself have made right if he were moving this Amendment with the serious intention of pushing the point home on this occasion.
    I hope it will not be necessary for him to divide the Committee on this Amendment. I ask the Committee to consider that this would be an innovation. The Committee rightly seeks to exercise control over proposals by a Minister, but this proposal would be pushing that procedure to hitherto unheard lengths and lengths which I shall be able to show would stultify the very desirable reform which the House of Commons have already sanctioned, namely, the provision of milk for school children, at the earliest possible moment, at cheap rates. That reform has been proposed for the purpose both of helping the school children and of devoting the milk surplus to its obvious and most appropriate use, that of being drunk. The expenditure of public money comes under the control of Parliament on this occasion in many ways. We are working here under a Financial Resolution by which the House of Commons has already sanctioned the sum, and the Clause is drawn in accordance with that Resolution. The gross sum is there limited to £1,000,000, so that the Minister cannot go beyond that amount.
    Next, I should point out that all the expenditure within this limit will have to appear in Estimates or Supplementary Estimates submitted to Parliament by the Minister. Not a penny of this sum is being given away beyond the control of Parliament at all. It comes within the control of Parliament in exactly the same fashion as other sums. If my hon. Friend were logical he would, in fact, move that the Minister should be subject to a series of permanent Resolutions in detail, and on this Estimate and other Estimates also clearly the House would tie itself in a tangle of its own procedure from which it could never escape. It is most desirable as abroad general
    324
    principle that the time of the Ministers responsible for the general good administration of the sums placed within their control should not be cut into, especially at this stage when the burdens upon Parliamentary time are so great. As to the effect of this procedure in this particular case, a better example of the way in which the Committee could stultify itself if it accepted the Amendment could scarcely have been designed. It is not to have effect until after the twentieth day. Consider the twentieth day on which this House has sat. I have worked out a draft Amendment for the purpose of showing what the proposals of my hon. Friend would look like if I were to accept an Amendment of that kind in this Bill. Sub-section (3) would read something as follows:
    "The Minister shall, before approving any arrangements submitted to him for the purpose of this Section by the board administering the milk marketing scheme, lay particulars of the arrangements before the House of Commons"—
    and proceeding, by the Amendment which I am sure he will desire to make—
    "and shall not approve the arrangement until after the twentieth day on which that House has sat after the particulars are laid before it, nor if before the end of that date the House resolves that the arrangements be not approved."
    That means that the board can take no steps whatever until the Bill has passed both Houses of Parliament and receives the Royal Assent. Next, this procedure, which is admittedly intended to be taken seriously, and to give the House an opportunity of scrutinising these schemes, would have to be carried out as follows: For 20 Parliamentary days these proposals would need to be laid before the House. Let the Committee consider where this would take us. Long after the House had adjourned for the summer no proposals could be undertaken. The desire of the House to see that the surplus milk is brought to the children in the schools would be completely stultified by the procedure we are asked to adopt. The summer Session would go by, school holidays would go by and nothing could be done. The children would return, and nothing could be done. Parliament would not be sitting, and nothing could be done until the House reassembled, perhaps in October or November. Further Parliamentary days would continue to run out, and some time about Christmas, when the

    325
    milk surplus had entirely disappeared, it would be possible for the House to sanction a scheme with which, but for this cumbrous procedure, we might be able to get well ahead before the House rose for the Summer Recess.
    I ask the Committee whether they desire to inflict a procedure like that upon the progress of schemes which we all desire and on this occasion to see that it is impossible to accept this means of control over public expenditure in place of the general principle in our financial procedure which has governed the public expenditure for so long in this House, that the Minister has to account on the Floor of the House for the way in which he has spent money which Parliament has, in general, entrusted him to administer.
    10.20 p.m.
    Sir FRANCIS ACLAND: I have had no consultation with the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank), but I think it is possible that the reason for the suspicion he has expressed is partly that in the early stages of the schemes, and in the Financial Resolution, it was definitely stated that one of the main objects of this expenditure up to £2,000,000, that is £1,000,000 of our money and £1,000,000 of the Milk Board's money, was to be for milk for school children. There is no mention of that in the Bill and, therefore, it will be perfectly legal for the Minister to allow the whole £2,000,000 to be spent on the board's posters. If the Minister could give us some indication as to the line he intends to take on two later Amendments to the Bill, that he will accept a general direction that a fair proportion of the money to be spent shall go to the supply of milk to school children, we should be satisfied.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne): I think that the right hon. Gentleman is anticipating an Amendment which he himself has on the Order Paper.
    Sir F. ACLAND: My point is that as the Clause now stands the Minister might approve schemes which have nothing to do with the spending of money on the feeding of school children.
    10.22 p.m.
    Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: The hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) is anxious to preserve democratic control through this
    326
    House, just as I am. The difficulty which he constantly meets every time he makes these protests is that the existing procedure of the House does not enable democratic, control to be exercised in matters of this sort. The Minister has truly said that if expedition is to be used in bringing in reforms of this sort it is impossible for the House, in existing circumstances, to exercise proper control over financial matters. He illustrated clearly that this innovation, this suggestion of control, with the consequent necessary delays, would defeat his purpose in getting these schemes through quickly. That answer can, of course, be given on practically every occasion by practically every Minister, and no doubt as long as the present procedure continues will continue to be given by every Minister. But this is not an ordinary case. We are here dealing with a subsidy, not the ordinary expenditure of the Minister in the course of administration. It is the case of granting a subsidy for the purpose of increasing the profits of a particular industry. I am not discussing the merits of a subsidy, but clearly that type of expenditure is one over which the House is entitled to have as much control as it has in any other case.
    I suggest that the time has arrived when the Government should seriously consider the question of revising the procedure of this House so as to enable us to have expedition and control. At the present time the two things are impossible. Unless we can devise some system of functional committees where matters of this sort can be dealt with expeditiously away from the Floor of the House, and yet with representatives of all parties present, I do not believe that it will ever be possible to get what the hon. and gallant Gentleman and I want, that is, an efficient democratic control and, at the same time, an efficient and quick means of getting legislation through the House of Commons. It is time that the Government began to consider that problem.
    10.26 p.m.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: I do not think we can lightly dismiss this merely as a matter of procedure. The hon. and learned Gentleman comes to the help of the hon. and gallant Gentleman and puts the blame on the existing machinery of the House. It is very old machinery, I

    327
    admit, but on the whole it has been a protection of the public against the inroads of Government Departments spending public money in a way that Parliament does not approve. We should be very jealous of parting with this control, and the Minister should really satisfy the House that it is going to keep a grip on the way this money is to be spent. The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly clear. We are giving a lump sum, which may be spent in publicity or on milk for school children; 75 per cent. may be spent in the latter way and 25 per cent. in the former. We ought to have some control over the large subsidy on this new experiment in administering a great and important industry. The right hon. Gentleman, who was very anxious to disarm criticism, can put as many arguments in a short space of time as any Member of the House. He first suggested one thing as a defence of the procedure and then another. First, he said there are the Estimates. Are we to understand that this £1,000,000 will not be spent until an estimate is presented to the House? Later on, he said that there was the accountability of the Minister for expenditure. That is another thing altogether. It is one thing to try "and stop money being spent in a particular way, and another to call the Minister to account after the money has been spent, which really means passing a Vote of Censure on the Government. That is a much less satisfactory way of controlling expenditure.
    The primary purpose of this House and the most fundamental principle on which all our traditions and procedure have been built, is the control of the public purse. We are making this great new experiment for which the whole Committee wishes well, for anything that will help the milk industry and make the consumption of liquid milk more popular has the good will of the whole Committee. We are, however, going to spend money in an entirely new way. I will not say through a private board, but through a model organisation responsible, not to the Minister, or to the House or to private shareholders, but to the industry itself. In making this new experiment, therefore, we ought to be very jealous not to hand over to any Minister, however capable, competent and enterprising, this
    328
    large sum of money until we know exactly how it is to be spent. The right hon. Gentleman made great play about delay. It is an important point. Here we are to have this great new experiment to give milk to children, which is to be a help for agriculture, and we do not want this to be held up while the House goes into Recess. I consider that that point can easily be met. This proposal does not say that you have to wait 20 days, but it says "within 20 days." I understand that we are not to rise until early in August, and that there is the prospect of our sitting over Bank Holiday. Surely we can sit up one night for an hour or two after eleven o'clock to pass this expenditure, in order to maintain the sacred principle of the right of the House of Commons to control the purse strings. We should support the proposal of the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough—not necessarily in his words—to keep this power in the hands of the House of Commons.
    10.31 p.m.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I do not want to press this matter any further to night if the Minister will agree with this proposal. I quite take the point of the possible delay and of that continuing into the autumn, just because the House is not sitting. There is always an alternative. I expect the Minister knows what kind of scheme he has in mind; why should he not formulate that scheme and add it to the Bill as a schedule? Then, before the House passes the Bill, we should know what is proposed under this Clause. That does not seem impossible, and I hope that he will consider it. His general answer that the House retains control through the Estimates is theoretically but not practically true. Unless my memory is wrong, we have not yet seen the, Estimates of the Minister's Department, although it is towards the end of June and half the Supply days are gone, and for all we know we may never see them. If we do, it does not follow that this particular item would ever be discussed. We want to ensure that before the scheme is started there shall be general approval of the House of Commons on the detailed internal distribution of the £500,000. I therefore suggest, if the Minister cannot see his way to adopt this before the Report stage,

    329
    that he would see whether he can introduce a complete scheme and include it in the form of a Schedule to the Bill.
    10.33 p.m.
    Sir BASIL PETO: Did I hear the Minister say that so far as this Amendment is concerned any expenditure would have to be on a Supplementary Estimate? It is very important. The Bill is only for two years, and if the Committee are to consider a separate Supplementary Estimate for the expenditure, that gets us out of the difficulty that several hon. Members feel.
    10.34 p.m.
    Mr. ELLIOT: I can assure the hon. Baronet the Member for Barnstaple (Sir B. Peto) that the sum called for this year would require a Supplementary Estimate. That is the information I have from my advisers.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: If the main Estimates have not been closed before the end of Supply, we shall not have a separate Debate on the Supplementary Estimate.
    Mr. ELLIOT: It is a little, difficult to see how the ancient procedure by which Supply days are selected by the Opposition is to be altered solely in order that the Committee shall more meticulously examine the details of what is proposed here. I hope I may meet my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) by saying that, although it would not be possible to lay out a scheme as a Schedule to this Bill, because any alteration could not take place without some form of Amendment having to be passed by the Commons and Lords and receive the Royal Assent, I certainly desire, in the course of the discussion on this Clause on this stage of the Bill and on the Report stage, to give the House some general indication of the proportions in which, for instance, we hope to allocate the sum, and the progress which is being made by the scheme. As to the making of a full scheme, I would ask the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough to consider that because of the elections it is only within the last few days that the Milk Marketing Board have begun negotiating. It was impossible to negotiate before the new board came into existence, and we have pressed on as quickly as possible. As I have said, I
    330
    hope to be able to give my hon. and gallant Friend details of the proposals during the passage of the Bill, and as soon as possible thereafter to lay the details of the scheme; and I hope that perhaps he will not find it necessary to press the matter further on this occasion.
    Amendment negatived.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The next Amendment that I. select is that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Oswald Lewis)—in page 14, line 29, after "milk," to insert
    "which has been derived entirely from cows free from the infection of tuberculosis."
    Mr. Oswald Lewis.
    The next Amendment that I select is that standing in the name of the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland)—in page 14, line 33, at the end, to insert:
    "Provided that not less than half of the moneys provided by Parliament shall be expended in repayment to the Board in respect of milk for consumption by children attending public elementary schools, or by mothers, or children under school age attending clinics under schemes approved by the local public health authority."
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Before the right hon. Baronet moves his Amendment, may I ask whether the previous Amendment in ray name and those of two of my colleagues—in page 14, line 33, at the end, to inserts:
    "Provided that not more than half the amount of the moneys provided by Parliament shall be expended otherwise than by way of compensation to a board in respect of milk sold at reduced prices for consumption by children attending public elementary schools."
    is not the broader Amendment of the two? My submission is that at present not only the education authorities but the public health authorities have the power, and exercise that power, to provide a supply of milk to mothers and children in certain circumstances at welfare centres at a cheaper rate than that at which similar milk is obtainable elsewhere. If that be so, any concession which the right hon. Gentleman may make out of the funds made available by Parliament for this purpose would perhaps exonerate the local education committee from footing the bill which they now incur, whereas under the other Amendment any concession that might be

    331
    made would be exclusively for the purpose of helping to provide milk for elementary school children. On the face of it, therefore, we submit that, while the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet may seem to be the broader of the two, in fact we think that it considerably limits the milk that may be made available by the right hon. Gentleman for elementary school children.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member may be correct about the facts, but the effect of selecting his Amendment would be very considerably to narrow the scope of the Debate.
    10.38 p.m.
    Sir F. ACLAND: I beg to move, in page 14, line 33, at the end, to insert:
    "Provided that not less than half of the moneys provided by Parliament shall be expended in repayment to the Board in respect of milk for consumption by children attending public elementary schools, or by mothers, or children under school age attending clinics under schemes approved by the local public health authority."
    I do not think that the question which has just been raised would be very fundamental in the discussion, because probably both groups of Members who have put down Amendments which very nearly cover the same ground have put them down more as a method of obtaining declarations of policy from the Government than because they hope that any particular detailed scheme will be adopted by the Government. So far as my Amendment enables the question of the provision of milk, especially under this scheme, for mothers or for children under school age, to be raised, it seems to me to be the broader, and I feel sure that these purposes in themselves are not matters to which my hon. Friends on the Labour Benches really take any exception, but are, on the contrary, regarded by them with great friendliness. Already the Minister has gone a long way towards meeting my point of view, and I think it is important that he should, as he says he will, indicate, in a broad fashion at any rate, what his intention is. Consultation will no doubt be necessary with the Milk Marketing Board with regard to the question of supplies for school children and the other classes that I mention.
    There is nothing whatever in the Bill that provides that any money is spent
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    for this purpose at all. That we think wrong, and we and hon. Members above the Gangway would be very glad if words of some kind could be inserted to make it clear that some fair proportion is to go to this purpose which all the House regards as so important. When the Minister was dealing with it on the Second Beading I could not follow the reasons that he gave why it was not possible to say that one of the main purposes of the Clause should be to see that milk went to the school children, and I am still not in the least satisfied that it is not possible to put something of that kind into the Bill. If you are going to advertise a particular big expenditure on something that everyone can understand, it is more effectual in the long run than to be sparing and not make any really big public effect. It would undoubtedly have a real effect on the health of the children if you could have a system working for a couple of years or so under which in area after area, as reasonably safe supplies were available, all the children in the schools received this milk, whereas under the scheme that the Government contemplate, as I understand it, you are not as likely to get a real effect on public health.
    If this is done in a way that necessitates payment by and on behalf of the children, and not in a really liberal way which will enable free distribution to be made to all children, you are going to put on the teachers an almost intolerable administrative difficulty. Under a system under which the milk is only delivered on payment, you will have, in practically every school, three classes of children who have to be differently looked after by the teachers. You will have the minority, for whom the medical officer says milk must be provided free, you will have a certain proportion who will come with their daily halfpennies and get milk, and you will have a certain proportion, who need the milk most, who will not get it because they will not be able to bring the daily halfpenny, and the teachers will have to keep watch and see that the milk is only given when the daily halfpenny is produced, and to collect the halfpennies and make sure that the number of halfpennies collected corresponds with the number of bottles of milk delivered is an administrative difficulty with which the teachers ought not to be forced. They are amazingly

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    willing to do things which they believe to be for the better health of the children, but you cannot reasonably ask them in every class every day to be looking after three different classes of children who will have to be dealt with differently. There is the obvious point about the real value to the children, to the nation, and to the farmers, ultimately making a real impression on the public mind by getting greater publicity and popularity for milk consumption. I am certain that from the farmers' point of view, quite as much as from the children's point of view, it will pay over and over again to give as large a proportion of this money as you possibly can for milk for consumption by the school children and the other persons covered by my Amendment.
    10.46 p.m.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: We, of course, support the right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) in the plea which he has now made. It is really supplementary to what most of us said, both below and above the gangway, in the Second Reading Debate, and if the Minister has something really pleasant to tell us, I should like to hear it as quickly as possible. As we see the situation, the Government are to make available for two consecutive years £500,000 each year as a maximum; therefore, each year there will be £1,000,000 made available. The Amendment asks that 50 per cent. of the Government grant shall be set aside for the provision pf cheaper or free milk for either elementary school children, nursing mothers, or children attending clinics. That means that only £250,000 is called for by the Amendment for 12 months for cheapening the supply of liquid milk, leaving £750,000 to be expended. on publicity. We understand that Guinness have done fairly well by advertising, that Bass have not done too badly, and that Bovril seem to keep their end up on the hoardings, but I imagine that £750,000 expended on the hoardings for this particular purpose is sufficient and that the other small proportion of the £1,000,000 should be made available for the consumption of liquid milk by children.
    If the right hon. Gentleman has a scheme in his pocket, we ought to know what it is, but even if the Amendment is to be accepted, it will not help the sur-
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    plus milk problem very much. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that merely to subsidise some milk for some children in elementary schools will be extremely difficult in administration, will contribute very slightly towards solving the problem confronting the dairy industry and the Minister, and will cause all sorts of anomalies. Last year we understand that 900,000 children were receiving milk at our elementary schools, that they were paying for that milk at the rate of 2s. per gallon, and that they were consuming approximately 10,000,000 gallons of milk in the year. If the right hon. Gentleman accepts the Amendment and sets aside £250,000 per annum for free or subsidised milk, it means, if he were to halve the price, 5,000,000 gallons, not actually the full 10,000,000 gallons now being consumed in elementary schools. We are anxious that the Government should take some action. If the child is ever so small, we shall welcome it, but we want to see, if this money is to be expended in this direction, that the child in the elementary schools who needs the milk most will be able to obtain it. We do not wish, for instance, that the right hon. Gentleman should halve the cost to those who now receive milk at elementary schools leaving those who cannot afford to pay for any milk at all without any supply. We have already brought to the right hon. Gentleman's notice that in a city like Cardiff, which I imagine is not untypical, in the poorest section of the community 25 or 26 per cent. of the homes have no fresh liquid milk at all. Surely it is these children who require milk. The right hon. Gentleman who has this small sum at his disposal, which we hope will be larger in future years, should be able to give us something more than a skeleton of a scheme, and Members in all parts of the Committee are hoping the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what his scheme is.
    10.51 p.m.
    Sir JOSEPH LAMB: I should be sorry if the whole support for giving milk to school children came from the other side of the Committee. Some of us feel very strongly, and if we are more silent it is because we do not wish to delay proceedings. If this Amendment were carried it might be an unfortunate thing, because it would mean that a quarter of the whole would go to the purchase of this milk.
    Sir F. ACLAND: The Amendment says "not less."
    Sir J. LAMB: My point is that if you put this in as a minimum there is a danger that it might be regarded as the sum which should be used for this particular purpose, and I think it is better to leave it open to the Minister, in conjunction with the board, to decide later on when they know the conditions, how much they can spend for this purpose.
    10.52 p.m.
    Miss RATHBONE: I am not going to stand long between the Committee and the Minister's reply, but I would like to put to him one or two definite questions. My right hon. Friend who moved this Amendment admitted that he did so mainly for the purpose of trying to draw the Minister, but I must say that when I read the Amendment I was myself rather startled by its moderation. It asks that not less than one-half of the amount provided by the Government should be assigned to the purpose of providing milk for school children. We all know that it is possible in a case like this for the minimum to become the maximum. As long ago as last February or March, when the Government proposals first became known to the country, those who were studying the subject had some reason to believe that the scheme actually in contemplation proposed that not a half but two-thirds of the money provided jointly by the Government and the board on a pound to pound basis should be devoted to cheapening the milk for the children. On that assumption we made a calculation that if the price at which the milk was supplied was neither the retail nor the wholesale price, but something between the two, say 1s. a gallon, it would be possible for from 2,000,000 to 2,500,000 children to receive a daily ration of a third of a pint of milk for 200 school days at a ½d. At present there are fewer than 1,000,000 children getting the ration for one penny. The least we would get out of the scheme would be that the number of school children would be more than doubled, and they would be getting it for a halfpenny instead of a penny.
    That did not seem to be a magnificent advance. There are 6,000,000 school children, so that nearly two-thirds would go unsupplied. They would all go un supplied except on the 200 school days in the year. We had no assurance that anything would be provided for the children
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    under five years, or anything for pregnant and nursing mothers. If I am right in my apprehensions, the prospect before us is far poorer than we ever thought possible. We thought that there was going to be an improvement, and that at least one-half of the money would be used for the school children. The question is not merely how much of the money is to be used for the school children, but at what price is the milk to be supplied. We cannot judge what the proportion of one-half means unless we have some idea what kind of use is going to be made of the money to cheapen the milk. The other day, on the Second Reading of the Bill, extraordinarily vague replies were given by the Minister of Agriculture and the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland. The Minister talked as though the price that would be paid for milk would be not a special wholesale price but the full price of 2s. per gallon. With regard to the suggestion put forward that the whole number of school children should be provided for and that something should be left for non-school days and for children below school age, and for pregnant and nursing mothers, he told us that that would involve about 90,000,000 gallons of milk, and would cost £9,000,000. When he was challenged as to price he said specifically that he calculated the price at 2s. a gallon.
    I cannot believe that he really meant the House to suppose that if the amount of milk delivered to the schools and other places where it was to be supplied was to be multiplied nine times, or even if it was multiplied by two and a half times, as it would be if the very moderate estimate put forward that the number of children supplied was to be doubled, that the price would be the same. Making allowance for the cost of distribution, does he mean to say that if four gallons were delivered at a school it would cost as much as if one gallon were delivered, even allowing for the business of bottling? The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland spoke of 1s. 4d. a gallon. Do they mean 2s. or 1s. 4d., or do they mean that 1s. would be the price of the milk? The Committee is entitled to more precise indications of what the Minister expects to do for the children than he has yet given us. He has really told us nothing. I have read every word that he has said in the Debates. I have scrutinised every

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    word that representatives of the Government have said. They told us practically nothing, except that they did intend, although it is not in the Bill, that part shall go to the children.
    I do not think it is fair for the Minister simply to say to the Committee, "Shut your eyes and open your mouths and see what I and the kind Milk Board are going to give you." At best we gather, from the very small amount of money assigned to this particular purpose, that it is going to be a poor and disappointing scheme. We gather that possibly for two years at least these mothers—there are hundreds of thousands of them—who know that their children are suffering gravely in health because they can afford to give them practically no fresh milk, have to "wait and see," to wait until all the demands for cheapened manufacturing milk has been filled, and that then perhaps, in two or three years' time, not they but their younger brothers and sisters will be able to drink a little milk. I wonder whether the Minister would be quite so patient if it was a child of his own that was wasting away for want of sufficient nourishment and had to be content with a mere assurance that just a little was going to be given under this Bill, and that if the scheme succeeded perhaps a little more (might be done two or three years hence. Do let the Minister tells us what he does mean, how many children he expects to be able to provide for and at what price, how much the children will have to pay and what the further stages of expansion of the scheme are likely to be.
    11.2 p.m.
    Mr. HENDERSON STEWART: I ask permission to put another point. So far the discussion has been entirely upon the first of the two purposes for which this £1,000,000 is to be used, namely, the wider consumption of milk by children and so on. But there is another and second purpose. In his Second Reading speech the Minister said that there would have to be submitted to him the proposals of the Milk Board for the expenditure of this money, and that he would have to approve the schemes. Clearly, from what he said, one of the methods is to be pure publicity. I want to stress the very great importance of that. I know that there is, amongst State Departments, a sort of feeling that publicity is a cheap
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    thing, that it is not the sort of matter that should be of first-class importance, and that it should be relegated to some third-rate cheaply paid clerk. I put this point to the Minister and to the Milk Board: This board is one of the greatest food trading concerns in the country. In some respects it is the biggest food producing and selling concern there has ever been in the country. It is handling one of the most important items of food in our national diet. Its task, therefore, is one of supreme importance, and it is essential for the board to retain the good will of the public. I am not going to make any undue criticisms of the Milk Board and other boards for what they have done or have not done. Some of them have been in existence only for a few months. But, talking with some knowledge of publicity, I must say that what has been done so far is completely futile. I have seen scarcely a single paragraph in any newspaper in favour of the boards.
    The CHAIRMAN (Sir Dennis Herbert): The hon. Member is getting somewhat wide of the Amendment.
    Mr. STEWART: Of the two purposes for which the £1,000,000 is to be used, one is publicity and the other is the use of milk in schools, and I submit that the Amendment does make a reference to that. The point I make is that in view of the importance of their task it is essential for the Board to devote a considerable part of this money to really scientific, well-thought-out, expertly managed publicity. I beg the Minister not to be led away by these eloquent appeals to use all the money in the one direction, but to insist that among the schemes is a properly planned scheme of publicity, because I believe that along that line alone will the Board attain success, and, what is most important of all, sell clean, wholesome milk for consumption.
    11.6 p.m.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: As one whose name is attached to this Amendment I want to assure the Minister that it was put down as a really constructive suggestion, and with no idea that it would raise all this discussion. I think the argument of the hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) was too wide of the scope of the Clause. As to what the last speaker

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    said, our view is that the best way of advertising milk is to create in the children an appetite for milk. There may be something to be said for spending money on publicity and advertising, but just as the advertising of all other beverages has succeeded by creating an appetite for them we think the best means of increasing the consumption of milk is to get children used from an early age to drinking milk. The reason we put down this Amendment was that during the Second Reading Debate hon. Members in all parts of the House did agree that the best way of making milk popular is to provide school children with it. We are not raising here the full question of the distribution of free milk, but asking that under this particular Clause not less than half of the money shall be used for that purpose, and I hope the Minister will give us some satisfaction.
    11.7 p.m.
    Mr. ELLIOT: I readily respond to the appeal of my hon. Friend the Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth), whose interest in this subject we all recognise, and whose contributions to our Debates have always been most friendly and most constructive. He wishes to be informed as to what we have in view, and that is a desire which we willingly meet. I was a little surprised that my hon. Friend the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) without waiting to hear anything about the scheme, should have characterised it in advance as being a poor and disappointing scheme. So far from cutting down the vast sums which other people have devoted to this problem we are embarking on a new departure. She said she had hoped that two-thirds of the money would be available for this purpose, and was gravely disappointed to learn by, I suppose, a sort of telepathy, from the authors of the Amendment, that they had reduced their hopes as low as one-half or even one-quarter. I fly to reassure her; I can meet her, and more than meet her, and also meet my hon. Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. H. Stewart). The proportion which we shall be spending in this matter is much more like six-sevenths than one-half or two-thirds. I say that, not with any desire to minimise the importance of the expenditure stressed by my hon. Friend the Member for East Fife, but on the assurance that
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    the proposals have been gone into, as I understand, on behalf of the Milk Marketing Board by one of the greatest experts in the country and the sum which is at present suggested as reasonable to devote to this object is a sum of, say, £50,000 a year in England or £100,000 in all, which leaves the English share of the grant at £430,000 a year or £860,000 in all. It will be clear that the schemes which have been considered go far beyond the proportion which is suggested in the Amendment, and having elicited that information, I am sure my hon. Friends will not desire to press their Amendment, because the mere existence of these words might be taken by the bodies concerned as an indication that the House of Commons desired them to reduce the amount of the expenditure on the school children and to enlarge considerably the amount spent on publicity. I think in the present circumstances we should do better under the proportion which I have suggested—something like six-sevenths for school milk and one-seventh for publicity—than under any of the proportions which have been suggested.
    Sir F. ACLAND: I sincerely thank the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    11.13 p.m.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I beg to move, in page 14, line 33, at the end, to insert:
    "(3) With a view to ascertaining whether any and, if so, what sums are payable under the foregoing provisions of this Section by the Minister to the board administering a milk marketing scheme, any person authorised in writing in that behalf by the Minister may, at any reasonable time, enter any premises occupied by the board and request any person whom he finds in the premises to produce to him such documents and give him such other information as he considers necessary."
    The Clause may be summarised as providing for a subsidy for the purpose of creating an increased demand for milk, and the point of my Amendment is merely a point of accounting. As I see it, the Minister with the approval of the Treasury certifies the expenses incurred by the milk boards in selling milk at reduced prices. The question I want to raise is how these expenses are verified. Clearly, they can only be verified by some sort of investigation at the offices of the boards, but there appears to be no provision in the Clause as it stands

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    for such investigation. It is in order to give the Minister power for that purpose that I move the Amendment. Those who happen to be on the Public Accounts Committee will appreciate the importance of this proposal. I do not complain of the number of boards which are being set up by the Minister, but it is important with the increasing number of boards that there should be some effective check on the amount of money spent on particular services. It is to enable the Minister to satisfy himself as to the accuracy of the accounts that I ask him to accept these words.
    11.15 p.m.
    The UNDER-SECTETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): The Committee will appreciate the motives of the hon. Gentleman, and will agree that before moneys are paid out under the provisions of this Clause, or any other Clauses of the Bill, there must be a careful check to see that the moneys to be received by the Marketing Board have in fact been earned. The ordinary method of having the necessary dockets, receipts and other evidence is the proper way in which to deal with the matter, just as it is in the case of a trustee, who does not pay out any money until he has satisfactory documentary or other evidence that the money has been earned. That is the real answer to the very natural anxiety and preoccupation of the hon. Gentleman, and, that being so, I need not point out the weakness of the proposal. I very much doubt whether any extra information of a relevant sort would be discovered by this proposed right of entry. I do not think that that would be a very likely source from which to glean the extra information. No method in view of the necessity for obtaining detailed receipts, documents and other evidence, could be more inept than giving the Minister power of entry upon premises at any reasonable time to request from any person who might be found on the premises to produce such documents and information as he considered necessary. I do not think that that would be a very useful method. The Milk Board as a responsible body will have to show all the necessary receipts, dockets and documentary evidence and satisfy the Ministry and the Treasury that the money has been earned. In these circumstance?, I ask the hon. Gen-
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    tleman not to press the Amendment, the mere moving of which I think has satisfactorily raised the question he had in mind.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I am sorry to say that I have not been convinced by what the hon. Gentleman said, but I will at the present time ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    11.18 p.m.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I should like to ask the Minister whether he cannot provide us with a little more information as regards the expenditure of this money. I could not raise the point on the Amendment, as it would probably have been out of order. The right hon. Gentleman has only told us that he intends to spend six-sevenths or some such proportion of the money upon the, provision of milk for school children, but he has not informed us at what price, by what method, and the periods for which that milk is to be distributed; whether it is to be limited to the school terms or is also to go on through the holiday period; whether any sum at all has to be paid by the children, or whether the distribution is to be free; and whether there is to be any provision as regards differentiation between different children, that is to say, whether some are to get it free and some are to pay for it? We are very anxious to learn the precise circumstances on the matters I have mentioned as regards the distribution of milk. We were very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say earlier in the evening that he and his hon. and learned Friend have now realised that the most useful purpose to which milk can be put is liquid production, and not to keep the cheese factories going as was suggested in an earlier part of the Debate. We are delighted that light is stealing on to the Treasury Bench, although by slow degrees. It is also heartening to us to know that although the amount of money devoted to it is inadequate, it is perhaps one of the first steps towards planning the prices of the commodity, and I imagine that the Minister is going to plan the price of milk distributed to schools irrespective of the cost of the commodity. That is an important principle to introduce into the

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    industrial life of this country. Once you introduce that principle you must inevitably, without any doubt, arrive at the position where private ownership and the means of production is entirely eliminated. We welcome it as a useful step in that direction.
    11.22 p.m.
    Mr. H. STEWART: I want to refer to the amount which has been set aside for the purposes of publicity. The right hon. Gentleman says that £50,000 per annum is to be set aside for advertising this immense industry. Speaking with some experience of advertising foodstuffs, I say deliberately that, if the amount is to be limited to that figure, it will be money completely wasted. I can give the right hon. Gentleman countless examples to show what it costs to produce a really effective campaign. I am not concerned with any interests, I am offering the benefit of what experience I have. The amount should be at least doubled or not spent at all. I hope the Minister will reconsider this matter. It would be better to spend these few thousands in providing more milk for the children than spend it in a way which will have no real effect.
    11.23 p.m.
    Mr. ELLIOT: I respond readily to the desire of the Committee for further information, as far as is possible, about the proposals in the Clause. I note the desire of the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. H. Stewart) that a larger proportion of the money should be spent on the cost of pure publicity, but I would beg of him to consider that the people who have examined this question have done so with a genuine desire to find the most useful sum which can be spent, and have come to this conclusion after full consideration. I can assure him that it is not a hasty decision. Now as to the proportion which is to be devoted to making the product advertise the product, making those who consume the product living examples of the usefulness of the slogan, "Drink more milk." The Committee welcomed the proposal I have already made, that about six-sevenths shall be devoted to this purpose. The hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) asked me to give further details as to the price at which we hoped to supply milk, and the conditions under which we
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    hoped to supply it. We intend to work upon the scheme which has been in operation for some time under the National Milk Publicity Council.
    This scheme, which is now supplying something like 900,000 children with milk, is working well, and I think it is the desire of all sections of the Committee to build upon the existing foundation. We shall thus have the benefit of previous experience and of working along lines which the new people who are to be brought in will be able to see in operation. Under that scheme, milk is supplied while the child is attending school, and that is the line along which the initial arrangements, at any rate, will be made. The method is to supply a separate bottle to each child with a straw through which to consume the milk. That makes sure of absolute cleanliness and of slow absorption of the milk, which makes it more easily digested. On the question of price, we set before ourselves the ideal of at once halving the present price charged to schools, and I am sure that will meet with the approval of the Committee. Milk is at present supplied at one penny for one-third of a pint, and we hope as soon as we get the sanction to proceed under this Bill to reduce it forthwith to one halfpenny. That will apply to all those who are already receiving milk and to all new entrants. We hope that halving the price will act as an excellent advertisement, because I cannot imagine any more excellent advertisement for any food product than for people to realise that it can be bought at half the price it was before. The extent to which we can spread the milk at one halfpenny depends on the arrangements we are able to make with the Board and the arrangements the Board are able to make with the distributors. We shall do our best when sanctioning schemes to see that as hard a bargain as possible is driven, but I do not think we shall be able to drive distributors down to the rate suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), who suggested one penny as a reasonable cost for distributing a gallon of milk.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: If the right hon. Gentleman will care to examine the OFFICIAL BEPOKT he will find that the tentative suggestion was 6d. As the

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    people using manufacturing milk were to pay 3½d., there would be a margin of 2½d. in favour of the school milk. A penny or other copper was mentioned as suitable once a perfect scheme had been produced, but I never suggested a penny to meet all the cost.
    Mr. ELLIOT: I had worked out a few details on that basis which I was going to give to the Committee. My hon. Friend mentions a penny or other copper, no doubt suggesting some larger copper coin which covers more than a penny, but I will not press him too far on that. It may be that in his part of the country larger and nobler copper coins circulate. I will not, however, press this point since we agree that some cost will have to be allowed for distribution and that that cost should not be unreasonably inflated. In passing this Clause, the Committee will sanction a stage in the Bill which will provide for the extension of a scheme which has already been tried out by experience and covers something like 1,000,000 children, and under which the difficulties foreseen by the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol and others, in regard to the necessitous child are not nearly so dangerous in practice as they seem in theory. Hon. Members will be passing a Clause under which we should be able forthwith to bring down the price of milk from one penny to one halfpenny. That will come into operation as soon as may be. I doubt if it will be possible for it to come into operation before the school holidays, because I doubt if the Bill will be on the Statute Book before that time. If we get the Bill on the Statute Book in good time, we shall be able to bring it into operation the moment the children return from their school holidays. We should be able, on that basis, to find an arrangement by which, when the two years are up, the board themselves may continue a scheme. We hope that within the two years we can work out a scheme which can be continued after the expiry of State assistance. Without any hesitation, I say that this is a very considerable step forward in our agricultural and social policy. If this Clause is passed, it will not, as an hon. Member suggested, prove to be a poor and disappointing scheme, but a scheme which will be welcomed most heartily in all the homes in the land,
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    and there are millions of them who will benefit.
    Miss RATHBONE: The Minister has given some reassuring information. Will he tell us what he estimates will be the price paid to the trade per gallon for the milk; and, secondly, can he give us any idea of how many children will be able to receive milk under the scheme?
    Mr. ELLIOT: The price per gallon is under close negotiation just now, and it will not be possible for me to give information. The new Milk Marketing Board have only just begun negotiations. On them, the hon. Lady will see depends the answer to her second question. I can certainly assure her that the number runs into millions, but it depends on the price which will have to be paid per gallon.
    11.33 p.m.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: We appreciate that it will be impossible for the Minister to give close details of a scheme which is more or less in the air. We do not expect him to tell us all about what may happen six months hence, but perhaps he will answer a question. It is recognised that the 900,000 children who are now receiving milk, and are paying at the rate of 2s. per gallon, will welcome the announcement that in future they will receive the milk at the rate of 1s. per gallon, but, so far as we understand, the unfortunate families who are unable to pay anything, either because the incomes are absurdly small or the families absurdly large, will be excluded from the scheme altogether. We should like to know how they are covered.
    11.34 p.m.
    Mr. ELLIOT: If I understood my hon. Friend correctly, his question is as to whether we can allow the milk to go for even a lower sum than one halfpenny. I do not think that a flat rate of a halfpenny per day is an extravagant charge. I think the hon. Gentleman would agree that the distribution of the milk in the schools has rather been in those in connection with which certain interests have taken up and pressed forward a scheme rather than in districts whether the stress of poverty is greater or less. It is the energetic organisation of schemes under these general proposals that is necessary,

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    because, however poor the circumstances of the family, there are many hundreds of thousands more than already drink milk to-day who will be able to make the not very exaggerated contribution of ½d. towards a drink of milk for their children.
    Captain HEILGERS: Would the Minister consider ear-marking for rural areas say one-seventh of this sum which is to be devoted to school children, because under the present system of distribution it seems likely that the rural areas will get hardly any of this money when it comes to be distributed, and, from my own experience of managing milk schemes for school children, the rural areas will need special consideration?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I do not think I could undertake to ear-mark a portion of the sum for one locality or another. When the scheme is formulated it will be seen that it will be possible for all sections of the community to take advantage of it, and it will be up to any section to organise and press forward with a scheme. In that way we shall bring the benefit of these proposals to the rural as well as the urban areas, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that there will be those who will. be willing to ensure that the rural areas do organise and press forward with schemes.
    Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 12.—(Extension of junctions of milk marketing boards.)
    11.37 p.m.
    Mr. ELLIOT: I beg to move, in page 15, line 12, to leave out from "and," to "or," in line 16, and to insert:
    "has been produced in circumstances determined by the Minister or by the board with the object of securing, so far as practicable, that the milk is pure and free from the infection of any disease."
    This is really a drafting Amendment to ensure that it will be possible for these proposals to be continued, if it can be done, by agreement, and not necessarily by an Order. Owing to a slight mistake in drafting, the Clause as it stands only makes it possible to continue these payments under the Bill if an Order has been made. We think it probable that it will be possible to continue them by arrangement, without an Order.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. ELLIOT: I beg to move, in page 15, line 27, at the end, to insert:
    "(2) For the removal of doubts it is hereby declared that any power of the board administering a milk marketing scheme to determine the price at, below or above, which milk produced in the area to which the scheme applies, or any kind, grade, or description of milk so produced may be sold by any registered producer, includes power to determine in relation to milk so produced or any kind, grade, or description of such milk, as the case may be, different prices by reference to the different classes of persons to whom, or purposes for which, it is sold.
    (3) The board administering any milk marketing scheme may from time to time determine the places or areas at or within which milk produced in the area to which the scheme applies, or any description or quantity of milk so produced, may be sold or offered for sale by any registered producer.
    (4) Where, in conformity with a milk marketing scheme, any contract whereby a registered producer undertakes to sell, otherwise than to, or through the agency of, the board, any milk produced in the area to which the scheme applies, purports to confer on the board any right to recover from the purchaser the whole or any part of any damages for which the purchaser may be liable under the contract in respect of a breach of warranty on his part, then, without prejudice to the effect of sub section (2) of section seventeen of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1933, the board may enforce that right against the purchaser, notwithstanding that the board are not parties to the contract and notwithstanding that, as between the board and the purchaser, there is no consideration.
    (5) The board administering any milk marketing scheme may enter into and carry into effect an agreement with the board administering any other such scheme whereby the first-mentioned board, for such consideration and subject to such conditions as may be specified in the agreement—

    (a) undertake that, during a period specified in the agreement, they will exercise their powers in such manner as may be so specified; or

    (b) undertake that, during a period specified in the agreement, they will make to the other board payments of such amounts and at such times as may be so specified."

    It is only fair to the House to say that one portion at least of this Amendment, that is to say, the new Subsection (3), raises a point of substance. Doubt has been expressed whether the provisions of Section 5 (e) of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1931, which enables a scheme to provide for the determination from time to time of the prices at which, the regulated product, or any quantity

    349
    thereof, may be sold by any registered producer, would enable the Milk Marketing Board to determine the price of milk to be sold to schools at a lower figure than the price of liquid milk sold to other consumers. It is the desire of us all that that should be done and, in case there is any doubt about it, we are inserting this Amendment. I have received deputations from the distributive trade, representatives of the co-operative societies, national creamery proprietors and United Dairies and they desire that I should look more closely at this Section, which gave them some misgivings. I gave an undertaking to give consideration to the points that they raised between now and Report and I repeat that assurance here.
    The remaining paragraphs of the Amendment deal with a somewhat wider field. They also have been criticised by the distributive trade. They enable a certain amount of rationalisation of the trade to take place so that the product should be consumed as near as possible to the point of production. It is clearly undesirable that agricultural produce, particularly of a perishable kind—and milk of course is highly perishable—should be railed or motored from place to place, thereby incurring perfectly useless transport charges which have in the long run to come out of the pocket of the consumer or the producer. It is highly desirable that those cross-currents of agricultural produce should be reduced to a minimum. I think these powers exist in principle in the 1931 Act, which allowed classes of persons to be prescribed through whom the product might or might not be sold, but it did not cover areas, therefore this makes the rationalising process more practicable and it undoubtedly raises the dangers to which the deputations drew attention. Because of the very fair way in which they put forward their case I am most anxious to do what I can to meet their point and I have undertaken to look into the matter between Committee and Report. I think this power should exist and should be placed upon the Statute Book. If it were possible to ensure that it should not be wantonly or carelessly exercised by the board it would also be a good thing. Using a colloquialism, one of the members of a deputation that I saw to-day said it was most desirable that the board should not throw its weight about under the powers of this
    350
    Sub-section and I said, if he could draft in Parliamentary language a provision that the board should not throw its weight about, I should have great pleasure in putting it into the Statute. The task, however, baffled us in the time at our disposal. The object that we have in view, namely, that this should not be wantonly applied and should not be used to wreck long established distributive channels or to cut off supplies, is one with which we should all sympathise and which I should certainly do my best in drafting or administering the Act to co operate with in every possible way.
    Sir J. LAMB: Did any of the distributors throw their weight about?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I should hesitate to criticise the conduct of deputations which came to me, and I should not wish to imply anything which would be taken as reflecting in any way on the conduct of anyone who came before me, but we have known cases in the past of distributors who did throw their weight, about to a considerable extent, and I am sure a better spirit has come over all of us who are concerned in working out the technique of these very intricate matters. It is true that danger might arise that the board might do something unjust or arbitrary under these powers, but we must trust the board. They must learn to exercise their powers in a just manner. There is machinery whereby, if they exercise their powers unjustly, they can be called in question, and it would be impossible for us, in one or two particular instances, to determine ways in which the board should not be unjust or exercise their powers in a harsh manner. I hope very much, therefore, that the Committee will allow this Amendment to be inserted, because I am sure that with its general power of rationalising distribution we shall all sympathise.
    11.48 p.m.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: We welcome the right hon. Gentleman's pronouncement, and in view of his promise to look closely into the matter and all its consequences between now and the Report stage, we prefer to reserve our case until that time. The right hon. Gentleman is aware of what has transpired in Scotland, and he also knows what has transpired with regard to the multiplicity of machinery in the case of sugar.

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    Therefore, we prefer to reserve our observations until the Report stage, by which time we hope the right hon. Gentleman, with the Co-operative Societies and other interests involved, will have been able to find a way out of their difficulties.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 13.—(Interpretation.)
    11.49 p.m.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir ARNOLD WILSON: I beg to move, in page 15, line 34, at the end, to insert:
    "'pure' milk means milk which has not been treated by beat in such a way as to destroy or modify its natural characteristics and to which no foreign matter such as water, skimmed milk, fat, or other sub stances have been added;
    'free from the infection of any disease' means—

    (a) of a standard of bacteriological purity; and

    (b) of nutritional content at—

    (c) a given temperature within a—

    (d) given number of hours after production, which shall be fixed from time to time by the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Health after a public inquiry at the cost of the Milk Marketing Board."

    The object of the Amendment, is twofold. In the first place, it is to exclude pasteurised milk and milk treated by heat in other ways from the financial benefit of Clause 9. It is clear that were it to be included, it would wreck the scheme, but there are other reasons, and in the second part of this Clause the object is to set up a scientific body which would give scientific study to the great question of milk in all its aspects. That is exactly what the People's League of Health advocated in its memorandum of October, 1931, to encourage further critical study of the effect of a compulsory standard of pasteurisation on the nutritional qualities of milk and its influence on the distributional aspect of the milk problem. I am reluctant to detain the Committee for any length of time on this complicated subject, but the Hopkins Report, which has been in our hands for some time, deals only incidentally with the question of pasteurisation, which was scarcely within its terms of reference. I am very much impressed
    352
    on giving it careful study with the grudging support it gives to pasteurisation throughout. May I read a few extracts which have a direct bearing and which have induced me to put down this Amendment? It admits that vitamin C is undoubtedly destroyed to a greater or less degree by the process of pasteurisation and goes on to say that this deficiency, if it occurs, can be fortunately corrected by the use of orange and lemon juice, which are now so easily obtainable. But it is by no means easily obtainable. It costs anything from 6d. to 1s. per child, and in many parts of England it is, practically speaking, unable to be secured.
    The Committee go on to say, while far from praising pasteurisation, that there is no evidence that it has been in any way responsible for such diseases as are known to result from vitamin deficiency. A little further on it is stated that there is no clear evidence of greater vitamin deficiency in districts where the greater part of the milk is pasteurised than in areas where it is not. Again, a most equivocal approval. It mentions that, in America, where a large number of children were fed on pasteurised milk they promptly became Ticketty and the deficiency was only cured by the administration of an antiscorbutic diet of fruit juice. I could continue to quote at length from the report.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid there was a point which had escaped my attention. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will help me. I cannot find any reference to "pure milk" anywhere in the Bill. If the expression does not occur, I do not think it will be in order to propose the insertion of a definition of "pure milk."
    Sir A. WILSON: The words "pure and free from the infection of any disease" occur in the additional Clause which has just been moved by the Minister.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: The words "milk pure and free from the infection of any disease" do occur. It is "milk pure" not "pure milk."
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. and gallant Gentleman might possibly have raised the point on Clause 9 where it says that:
    "the Minister … may expend out of moneys provided by Parliament such sums as he thinks fit, with the object of securing so

    353
    far as practicable that the milk supplied for human consumption in England or in Scotland, as the case may be, is pure and free from the infection of any disease."
    It is too late to do that now and I am afraid I must rule this Amendment out of order. It is a definition of something which does not occur in the Bill at all.
    Sir A. WILSON: May I leave out the word "pure" and continue to discuss the words "free from the infection of any disease"?
    The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid not. The hon. and gallant Gentleman can raise that, perhaps, by an Amendment on Clause 9.
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Clause 14 (Short title and commencement) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 151.]
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
    It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at Four Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.

MINES (WORKING FACILITIES) BILL [Lords].
Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee C.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Monday next.

ARCHITECTS (REGISTRATION) BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 145.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Darlington Corporation Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the law with respect to betting on tracks where sporting events take place, including the law in respect to totalisators on horse racecourses; to authorise, subject to restrictions, the establishment of totalisators on dog racecourses; to prohibit betting on tracks with young persons and pari mutuel betting except by authorised totalisators; to amend the law with respect to lotteries and certain prize competitions; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid." [Betting and Lotteries Bill [Lords].]
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the urban district of Leek." [Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Leek) Bill [Lords].]
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Wycombe and District Joint Hospital District." [Min-
210
istry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Wycombe and District Joint Hospital District) Bill [LORDS].]
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Weymouth and Portland Joint Hospital District." [Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Weymouth and Portland Joint Hospital District) Bill [Lords].]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the city of Stoke-on-Trent." [Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Stoke-on-Trent) Bill [Lords].]

BETTING AND LOTTERIES BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 150.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LEEK) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 146.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WYCOMBE AND DISTRICT JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 147.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WEYMOUTH AND PORTLAND JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 148.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (STOKE-ON-TEENT) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 149.]
  COLONIAL OIL-SEEDS (FOREIGN MARKETS).
  COLONIAL OIL-SEEDS (FOREIGN MARKETS).
SCOTLAND.
  PERTH PRISON (REDECORATION).
  PERTH PRISON (REDECORATION).
  MARR TRUST.
  MARR TRUST.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
DARLINGTON CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

SHERIFFDOM OF PERTH AND ANGUS ORDER, 1934.
Considered on Report from the Special Orders Committee.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL): My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order be referred to a Select Committee.
Moved, That the Special Order be referred to a Select Committee.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

MEXBOROUGH AND SWINTON TRACTION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
ST. HELEN'S CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PRO- VISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to he printed, and referred to the Examiners.
SOUTHEND-ON-SEA CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PRO- VISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION (COAL MINES) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
GAS UNDERTAKINGS BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
WEST GLOUCESTERSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered and agreed to.
SOUTH WESTERN SUBURBAN WATER BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
SOUTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO- VISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMA- TION (LEEK) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO- VISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMA- TION (WYCOMBE AND DISTRICT JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO- VISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMA- TION (WEYMOUTH AND PORT- LAND JOINT HOSPITAL DIS- TRICT) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO- VISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMA- TION (STOKE-ON-TRENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO- VISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMA- TION (WEY VALLEY WATER) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO- VISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMA- TION (SOUTH MIDDLESEX AND RICHMOND JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).

CLERICAL DISABILITIES ACT, 1870 (AMENDMENT) MEASURE, 1934.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP or CANTERBURY THE LORD ARCHBISHOP or CANTERBURY moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House
4
do direct that the Clerical Disabilities Act, 1870 (Amendment) Measure, 1934, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The most reverend Primate said: My Lords, let me say at once that the desirability of this Measure has been fully affirmed by the Bishops and clergy in both Houses of the two Convocations. There was indeed some difference of opinion in the Upper House of Convocation of Canterbury, but when the Measure itself was presented after careful consideration by a Committee to the Church Assembly it passed the stages both of general approval and of final approval without a division. The Ecclesiastical Committee of Parliament has recommended that it should proceed and I understand that it has been approved in another place. I think therefore it may be regarded as uncontentious. That fact does not absolve me from the duty of giving a full explanation of its objects and provisions, but I hope its uncontentious character may render it unnecessary for me to make that explanation either long or tedious.
Your Lordships are aware that, I think quite rightly, persons in holy orders in the Church of England are subject to certain civil disabilities. They cannot become Members of Parliament, they cannot follow any other profession—the bar, the law, or medicine. They cannot engage in any other business except teaching, or farming a limited number of acres (that is intended to enable them, if they are rash enough, to farm. their own glebes). Otherwise they are subject to these disabilities. It came to be recognised that certain circumstances might arise in which a man might reasonably claim that relief from those disabilities should be given. Accordingly, from 1864 onwards there were prolonged discussions on the matter in Convocation. Three principles seemed to have been recognised: first, that there should be no question as to what is called the indelibility of holy orders, or the possibility of these orders themselves being relinquished; secondly, that it should be possible by some approved procedure to enable a man to relinquish the exercise of those orders; and thirdly—a point which I would ask your Lordships to note—that some provision should be made by which, with due safeguards and for good reasons, a man who had relinquished the exercise of his orders might be permitted to resume it.
Accordingly an Act, the Clerical Disabilities Act, 1870, was passed. It made provision, under due procedure, by which a man in holy orders could execute and have enrolled a deed of relinquishment of the exercise of those orders, but the Bill originally contained a clause, Clause 7, to which I invite your Lordships' attention. That Clause 7 provided that any person who had executed a deed of relinquishment and desired that it should not be made final could petition the Archbishop, and the Archbishop if he thought fit could cause a. deed of revocation to be similarly recorded, after which the person would become to all intents in law as if he had not executed the deed of relinquishment under the Act. When the Bill came before your Lordships' House in 1870, on the motion of the then Bishop of London that clause was struck out, doubtless because the Bishop persuaded your Lordships to feel that there was a danger lest, if that clause were passed, the clergy should feel at liberty to give up and resume as they pleased the exercise of their orders. The Amendment was agreed to with great reluctance by the House of Commons, and the Bill was passed without the clause.
The situation then was that it was clear that no question of the relinquishment of holy orders arose, only the relinquishment of the exercise; yet the law made no provision whatsoever by which a person who had executed a deed of relinquishment could resume the exercise of his orders. There was no prohibition in the Act, and that is important, but inasmuch as the law made no provision for a man resuming the exercise of his orders, it was regarded as presumed that the law intended the relinquishment to be permanent. The result is that cases from time to time occur which I think your Lordships will agree involve a real hardship.
Let me give only two of which I have personal knowledge. The first is the case of a singularly high-minded man, well known to me, who in the most conscientious and right-spirited manner, entertaining grave doubts about the faith which he was supposed to represent, felt that he could no longer continue his ministry. He had a wife and family to maintain. He had no wish to be idle. He therefore executed a deed of relinquishment. In the course of time his faith was restored to him, deepened
6
and strengthened, and he at once desired, most naturally, that he might resume the exercise of the ministry to which but for that difficulty he was devoted. Or I may give another case of a clergyman who for conscientious reasons felt bound to join the Roman Catholic Church. Being married he had to live as a layman, but he had to maintain himself and his family. Afterwards for equally conscientious reasons he desired to return to the Church of England, but as the law stood it seemed impossible for him to resume the exercise of his ministry.
Now, my Lords, what is to be done in cases of that kind? The principles of the Church of England forbid such a man to be re-ordained, and the provisions of the law seem to contemplate that he may not resume the exercise of his ministry. Consequently, hitherto, when eases like this have arisen, the only thing that such a man could possibly be told is: "You have involved yourself in a situation from which there is no escape; you must abide by the consequences of your act." I think that that is a most unsatisfactory position, and it is the more unsatisfactory because if a man has been convicted by due process of moral offences, even he, by the provisions of the Clergy Discipline Act, 1892, may be restored to preferment if the Archbishop and the Bishop of the diocese allow him to be restored. Can it be just that restoration is permitted to a man who has once been proved guilty of moral offence and deprived, and denied to a man who with the most conscientious motives has voluntarily relinquished the exercise of his orders and desires to resume?
I think your Lordships will feel that that is a most unsatisfactory position. This Measure seeks to put it right. Of course there must be the strongest safeguards against abuse. No one would wish that the profession of a clergyman in holy orders should be regarded as an experiment, a matter which a man can give up or resume as he pleases; but I think your Lordships may be satisfied that the provisions of this Measure, which only reproduce the original Clause 7 of the Bill of 1870 and make it stronger, furnish adequate safeguards. In the first place, a man who desires to revoke a deed of relinquishment must petition the Archbishop. The Archbishop is empowered and enjoined

7
to make the most careful inquiry into all the motives and circumstances, and only after being satisfied by such inquiry is he entitled to allow the man to execute an order vacating his original deed of relinquishment. In the second place, even after that has been done it is provided that he is incapable of holding any preferment, even a licensed curacy, for a period of two years, and after the probationary period of two years he is not permitted to hold any preferment except with the consent of the Bishop of the diocese.
When it is considered that a man who wishes to resume the exercise of the office must satisfy the Archbishop as to his motives and as to all the circumstances and must go through a period of two years probation, and that even then any preferment must be subject to the full consent of the Bishop, your Lordships will realise, I think, that the safeguards are sufficient. No doubt this is a Measure which will only apply to comparatively few cases, but where hardship exists or injustice is done to individuals we must give heed, and moreover, certain principles must be observed. Although it is a Measure modest in character I trust that your Lordships will be pleased to direct that it be submitted for His Majesty's Assent.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Clerical Disabilities Act, 1870 (Amendment) Measure, 1934, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COTTON MANUFACTURING IN- DUSTRY (TEMPORARY PRO- VISIONS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Applications for Orders and proceedings thereon.
1.—(1) If an organisation of employers in the cotton manufacturing industry
8
(hereinafter referred to as "the industry") and an organisation of persons employed in the industry make to the Minister of Labour (hereinafter referred to as "the Minister") in the prescribed manner a joint application for the making of an Order with respect to any agreement made between the organisations as to the rates of wages to be paid to any persons employed in the industry, the Minister shall, unless he is satisfied that the organisations do not respectively represent the employers controlling the majority of the looms in the industry and the majority of the persons employed in the industry of the class or classes which will, if such an Order is made, be affected by the rates of wages provided for by the agreement, appoint a board to consider the application and report to him thereon.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ROCHESTER)THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ROCHESTER) moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "any persons employed in the industry" and insert "persons employed in the industry of any class or description specified in the agreement." The noble Lord said: The object of this, together with other Amendments, is to make it clear that rates of wages can be fixed, if desired, for sections of the industry, provided that the organisation of workers who make the agreement with the organisation of employers is representative, not merely of the section for whom the rates are fixed, but of the whole grade of workers right through the industry.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out from the third ("to") to the second ("the") in line 14 and insert ("persons employed in the industry of any class or description specified in the agreement").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "class or classes" and insert "grade or grades." The noble Lord said: This Amendment and the next are moved to safeguard the position raised by Lord Askwith on the Second Reading. I then undertook on behalf of the Government to substitute "grade" for "class" in Clause 7 and in anticipation of your Lordships agreeing to that alteration I am moving these two Amendments.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 18, leave out ("class" or "classes") and insert ("grade or grades").—(Lord Rochester.)
LORD ASKWITH: I am obliged to the noble Lord. The Amendment makes it

9
much more clear and much less likely that there will be dispute, or the possibility of dispute, as to what grade a man belongs to. "Grade," is narrower than "class."
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCHESTER: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 15, leave out ("class or classes") and insert ("grade or grades")—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD AMULREE LORD AMULREE had given Notice of an Amendment to insert at the end of the clause:
"The board in enquiring whether it is expedient that an Order be made under this Act shall have regard to the differentials in wages and piece prices made under any practice, agreement or award in operation in any outlying place or places within the areas specified in the Schedule to this Act."
The noble Lord said: Since I put this Amendment on the Paper I have heard that local negotiations are on foot with regard to coming to a decision on the subject covered by my Amendment and various other matters. If agreement is reached it will be unnecessary to include my Amendment in the Bill. I have no wish to disturb local negotiations and in those circumstances I do not propose to move my Amendment.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:
Making of Orders.
2.—(1) If the report of the board appointed to consider any application made under the last foregoing section with respect to any agreement contains a unanimous recommendation that an Order he made bringing into force the provisions of the agreement relating to the rates of wages to be paid to persons who will be affected by those rates, the Minister may make such an Order.
2 An Order made under this section shall set out the rates of wages thereby brought into force, and any provisions of the agreement as to the conditions for earning or the method of calculating such wages, and the Order may contain such further provisions, if any, as the Minister considers necessary for making plain who are the employers and the employed persons affected by the rates of wages brought into force by the Order, but no such Order shall modify the terms of the agreement.
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "the provisions of the agreement relating to the rate of
10
wages to be paid to persons who will be affected by those rates" and insert "as respects all persons employed in the industry of the class or description to which the agreement relates, the rates of wages provided for by the agreement." The noble Lord said: This Amendment makes it clear that the rates to which legal effect is given by an Order apply not only to members of the organisations but also to workers of the same description who are outside those organisations.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 34, leave out from ("force") to ("the") in line 36 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved, in subsection (2), before "no such order," to insert "save as aforesaid." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is to ensure that while the Minister of Labour is not empowered to modify the terms of the agreement, he may insert provisions in the Order to make clear who are the employers and the employed persons affected by the rates of wages.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 2, after ("but") insert ("save as aforesaid").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 [Effect of Orders]:
LORD ROCHESTER: The next three Amendments together raise the same point and are designed to bring out more clearly the intentions mentioned in a preceding Amendment—namely, that when the Order is made the rates of wages affect not only those members of the organisations who were parties to the agreement, but also persons outside those organisations.
Amendments moved—
Page 3, line 7, leave out from ("industry") to ("and") in line 9, and insert ("as respects whom a rate of wages is provided for by the Order")
Page 3, line 14, leave out ("who is affected by the agreement") and insert ("as respects whom a rate of wages is provided for by the Order")
Page 3, line 21, leave out from ("industry") to ("provided") in line 22 and insert ("as respects whom rates of wages are").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Loan ROCHESTER: The next two Amendments state in rather shorter form what is the obligation upon the employer

11
concerned—namely, to keep conspicuously exhibited in his premises a copy of the Order. The Order, of course, will contain a list of the rates of wages payable.
Amendments moved—
Page 3, line 23, after ("keep") insert ("a copy of the Order conspicuously")
Page 3, line 24, leave out from ("employed") to ("and") in line 27.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4 [Revocation of Orders]:
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved to insert at the end of subsection (1):
" Provided that if before the expiration of that period the request is, by notice in writing addressed to the Minister, withdrawn by the organisation by which it was made, the Minister shall not make such an Order as aforesaid but shall forthwith cause to be published in the London, Gazette notice of the withdrawal of the request and of the fact that no further proceedings will be taken thereon."
The noble Lord said: Subsection (1) of Clause 4 enables either of the organisations who made the original application for the making of an Order to request the Minister of Labour to revoke that Order either wholly or in part. When that request has been made the Minister has no option but to revoke the Order at the expiry of three months from the date of such request. This Amendment is to give the organisation making the request an opportunity of altering its mind and withdrawing its request for the revocation. Second thoughts are sometimes best and this will give an opportunity for the two organisations to come together again and see whether the Order that is in operation cannot be allowed to remain in operation. The Amendment is obviously a reasonable one.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 6, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to.
Clause 7:
Interpretation.
(2) For the purposes of this Act all weavers employed in the industry shall be deemed to form a single class, and other classes shall be determined in like manner by reference to the several occupations of the persons employed.
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved to leave out subsection (2) and insert:
"(2) In determining for the purposes of this Act whether an organisation was at any date representative of the employers controlling the majority of the looms in the industry, no account shall be taken of the looms in any factory in which during the period of twelve months immediately preceding that date no looms had been used;"
The noble Lord said: I ask your Lordships to consider the next Amendment, as it appears on the Order Paper, in two sections, because I want to safeguard a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, on the Second Reading. By Clause 1 (1) the employers' organisation for the purpose of making an agreement must, represent employers controlling the majority of the looms in the industry, and the first part of this Amendment is designed to make it clear that for the purpose of calculating the majority of employers of that organisation, only active factories are to be taken into account. This method of calculation is almost the only one that can be applied with certainty. An alternative suggestion has been to calculate this majority by reference to looms being used, but this is almost impossible to do; for it is almost impossible to check in a factory that is, for instance, working short time how many looms were idle and how many looms were used, whereas it is a matter that can be reduced to a certainty whether the whole factory has been idle or working.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 1, leave out subsection (2) and insert the said words.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LOUD ROCHESTER LOUD ROCHESTER moved, after the words last inserted, to insert:
"and in determining for the said purposes whether an organisation was at any date representative of the majority of the persons employed in the industry of any grade or grades, all weavers employed in the industry shall be deemed to form a single grade, and other grades shall be determined in like manner by reference to the several occupations of the persons employed."
The noble Lord said: This, the second part of the Amendment, together with the Amendment to Clause 1, page 1, line 13, is intended to make it clear that rates of wages can be fixed for sections of the industry, but that the applicant organisation on the workers' side must represent

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the majority of the persons employed in the industry of the grade affected by the rates of wages provided for by the agreement. For example, where an agreement provides rates of wages for some weavers, the application must, nevertheless, be made by an organisation representing a majority of all weavers. The object is to prevent the Bill from being used to give legal effect to a local agreement without the assent of the central organisations concerned. This is necessary to ensure orderly and effective negotiation, since the rates in any one group or district may have repercussions on other groups or districts. It is the point raised by Lord Askwith on the Second Reading, when I undertook on behalf of the Government to substitute the word "grade" for "class"; but after looking into it further, as I promised to do, I saw that it did not quite meet the whole of his purpose. If the people making application to the board have not been specifically informed, then the board must make it abundantly clear to whom the award will apply. I think that this second part of the Amendment does cover that point, and I hope that it will meet my noble friend.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, after the words last inserted, insert the said words.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Schedule [Areas in which cotton manufacturing industry in carried on]:
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved to leave out the first three lines of the Schedule and insert:

"The Administrative County of Lancaster.

The County Borough of Barrow-in-Furness.

The County Borough of Blackburn.

The County Borough of Blackpool.

The County Borough of Bolton.

The County Borough of Bootle.

The County Borough of Burnley.

The County Borough of Bury.

The County Borough of Liverpool.

The County Borough of Manchester.

The County Borough of Oldham.

The County Borough of Preston.

The County Borough of Rochdale.

The County Borough of St. Helen's.

The County Borough of Salford.

The County Borough of Southport.

The County Borough of Stockport.

The County Borough of Warrington.

The County Borough of Wigan.

In the West Biding of the County of York—"
The noble Lord said: This Amendment and those which follow are purely drafting. So far as Lancashire is concerned, the Bill is to apply throughout the County, including in that expression the county boroughs; accordingly, the County is described as the "Administrative County of Lancaster" and then all the county boroughs are set out by name. This follows the description of the localities in the Local Government Act of last year.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, leave out lines 4, 5 and 6 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 7, line 11, leave out ("Luddenenfoot") and insert ("Luddendenfoot")
Page 7, line 20, leave out ("Derbyshire") and insert ("Derby")
Page 7, line 25, leave out ("Cheshire") and insert ("Chester").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

BETTING AND LOTTERIES BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOB AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY): My Lords, in moving the Third Reading of this Bill, I wish to explain to your Lordships that there are one or two points raised by noble Lords on the Report stage, which I promised to consider further on behalf of the Government, and which are still outstanding. I may perhaps refer, in particular, to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Snell, in connection with the position of standing joint committees to which county councils may desire to delegate their licensing functions, and that raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, regarding bonds redeemable by annual drawings. All these matters are receiving our careful attention, and, on behalf of my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Home Affairs, I can assure my noble friends that, while consideration of these points has not yet been completed, the Government will introduce Amendments to the Bill in another place, where this course is found necessary. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I was not able to be present at the important stage, the Committee stage, of this Bill, owing to public duties, but I have some knowledge of part of the matters contained in the Bill, notably greyhound racing, which I should like to give to your Lordships. As I listened to various speeches on the opening day, in particular a speech from the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of London, I rubbed my eyes and wondered whether we were talking about the same thing. Throughout many speeches, especially his, there ran the phrase "social mischief" as applied to greyhound racing. Even my noble friend who is in charge of this Bill, to whose courtesy and patience in this matter I should like to pay tribute, spoke of the social mischief and shook his head.
Now where does the social mischief lie? It is a Very good question to ask to-day. Is it in the amount of betting which takes place? Well, I do not think that can be so. I have been at pains to get what figures are available, and I think there is no doubt whatever—and I challenge contradiction—that there is at least eight times more betting on horse races than there is on greyhound races. But is it not a little amusing to have all this shaking of heads about the social mischief of betting when your Lordships' House is depleted to-day because, as we all very well know, most members of the House are at Ascot viewing the horse races, as I am sure I wish I could be myself? But I have a quotation here which I think is applicable and which I found by hazard, and it seems to me the only proper thing to say about all this wagging of heads over social mischief, when eight times as much betting goes on in connection with horse racing, which I personally love.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: May I ask the noble Lord whether he has studied the Report of the Royal Commission?
LORD MOTTISTONE: I have indeed; I have read every word of it, and if my noble friend will forgive me I hope to make good my case whatever the Royal Commission said. Is it the amount of betting that goes on? That cannot be
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justified when there is eight times as much betting on horses as there is on greyhounds. I quote Lord Maeaulay's words in his essay on Moore's Life of Byron:
"We know no spectacle so ridiculous as the British Public in one of its periodical fits of morality."
Take out "British public" and substitute some of the speakers on this matter and I think that is a true remark. If it is not the volume of betting, as I think I have proved, then is it the method—is it the presence of bookmakers? They are the same in both cases, but if that be so we ought to give every opportunity for betting with the totalisator, which avoids that evil.
I am at a loss to understand what the meaning of all this talk about social mischief can be. Of course people will bet. It is admitted that they bet far more on horse racing, but if you are going to enquire into the real social mischief of betting, let us look at the loss of money and waste of time involved in playing cards. It does not seem to occur to the Bishop of London, whose friendship I am proud to enjoy, that if he looks round his flock he will see that the real mischief is to be found at card tables and not at horse racing or greyhound racing. That is where the social mischief lies most deeply. It is very difficult to form an exact estimate, but there can be no comparison between the waste of time involved in greyhound racing and in card playing. I know of a case of two people who profess to cut the cards at breakfast time and play right on till two o'clock next morning. We all know of numbers of people who spend nearly all their time, in all classes of society, playing bridge or some other card game infinitely more demoralising than these open-air sports of horse racing and greyhound racing.
I hope that what I have said will do something to prevent people going on with this talk about moral mischief; that it is something you cannot stop, that it is wicked and evil. It is neither one nor the other. I know something about it, because I am Chairman of the Empire Stadium at Wembley. As the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, knows and as the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, pointed out, Wembley is concerned with other things in even greater degree than with greyhound racing—football matches,

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Empire games, and the rest—but it does not alter the fact that I have to go to Wembley from time to time to see greyhound racing. I have been there very often. Not long ago I took my noble friend Lord Gainford, one of the most right-thinking men I have ever known. What happened? The noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, has announced he has never made a bet on a totalisator; I have never made a bet on a greyhound in my life; but Lord Gainford in his kindness of heart made several bets on greyhounds for the benefit of my children. When it was all over I said to him: "Well, what do you think of it all?" His comment was illuminating "Well, it is not so exciting as horse racing, but it is a very pleasant way to spend an evening." "Do you see anything wrong with it?", I asked. "No, good gracious, why should I?" he replied. There is the point of view of a man whom all your Lordships respect, and who has permitted me to quote him. If you go to a well-conducted track you will find people there behaving themselves extraordinarily well. The Police make no complaints. The whole thing when well-conducted is in my considered judgment a good thing for the people.
The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Dalzell, struck the right note when he said that what was wrong about this new sport was that in many cases there were these hole-and-corner affairs where bookmakers own the dogs. What you want is control. It so happened that I took the chair at a meeting when we planned a greyhound racing track divorced from all the interests connected with the actual racing. I repeat that it is a good and well-conducted sport, and all the Police reports testify to that, but these hole-and-corner race meetings ought to be stepped, and if I may say so, Sunday racing ought to be stopped. That is a bad thing. I hope that when this Bill goes to another place, or even when it returns here, the noble Marquess will use all his efforts to see that these hole-and-corner meetings are stopped and that Sunday racing is absolutely prohibited.
Finally, I wrote to the managing director of Wembley Stadium, who naturally must be more concerned with these great football matches, Empire games, and bicycle racing than he is with greyhound racing. I asked him whether
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he would tell me candidly what he thought was the social effect after all the years he had been watching greyhound racing. This is what he says:
"My personal opinion on the social effects of greyhound racing after years of first-hand experience is that it is in more ways than one a very definite social asset. The provision of a well-conducted sport, where those who would gamble in any case, can have small bets in the open air—
instead of at the card table—
"under the best possible circumstances, to my mind acts as a tremendous antidote to social unrest of all kinds."
That is a very strong opinion. I would defend greyhound racing from the point of view of the working classes of this country who attend in such large numbers. Are they all guilty of social evils? If you go to see, these things in a well-conducted place you will find the working classes represented there, men and women, orderly and enjoying themselves in the open air without any thought of contributing to social evil.
I have heard it said in the course of these debates that if we had no betting on greyhound racing there would be no greyhound racing. The same thing might be said of horse racing. But if the idea is that the working classes only go to these open air spectacles because of the betting—although I fully admit if you deprive them of the opportunity they will bitterly resent it, whether horses or greyhounds are concerned—I would point out you have a practical answer in the fact that in the case of the sport imported from Australia, speedway racing at this very place, Wembley, where this sport is conducted and where there is and can be no betting, partly because it happens so rapidly but partly because there is no chance, far more people attend bicycle racing than attend anything else there except the great football matches. On behalf of the working classes, if I may venture to speak for them. I would resent the suggestion that in attending this harmless outdoor sport they are contributing in any way to a social evil. I trust that this Bill will pass with Amendments which will stamp out all the bad parts of it and especially Sunday racing, and I shall be prepared to support the Bill.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, we have heard a new aspect of the case from the noble Lord who has just spoken and

19
who was not here during the Committee debates. I was here during the whole proceedings on the Bill and there are one or two remarks I should like to make. I confess that, with all due respect, I have never felt more dissatisfaction with any measure promoted by a Government which I was trying to support. First of all, the Bill is divided into two Parts, neither of which has anything to do with the other, and in neither Part does there appear to be either principle or logic. Members of your Lordships' House who are interested in one Part of the Bill have been obliged to sit through discussions on the other. Part II—I mean the Part relating to lotteries—coming at the end of a very long and contentious Part like that relating to greyhound racing, has really not had a dog's chance of being considered on its merits.
Very few members of your Lordships' House are really interested in dog racing, but many of you have felt it a duty to examine the Bill closely, and if it had been left to a free vote I believe that the measure would have been altered considerably for the better. Personally I think it is a pity that the Government should have troubled to go so closely into the domestic details of dog racing. I think it would have been far better to have made a ring fence round the business and to have told those connected with it that the Government would not interfere so long as they behaved themselves and obeyed certain general regulations. It would have been sufficient, I think, if the Government had dealt with the question of the totalisator and interfered with very little else. I have been unable to understand the attitude of the Government and some of their supporters in the House whom we know to be opposed to dog racing. They have definitely recognised dog racing as a matter concerned with social welfare as it is described in one part and done nothing to stop it, but, on the other hand, they have opposed any measure whereby dog racing could be properly controlled and run as cleanly as it is possible to run it in the interest of all concerned. That the Government have resolutely opposed.
There was a great opportunity to insist on an approved dog racing control board of disinterested persons being set up independently by the organisations themselves, under a single set of rules,
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which would have seen that betting was properly conducted and that there was no swindling with regard to the dogs themselves. While I had not expected much support for anything that I have to say on the Bill from the right reverend prelate the Bishop of London, at least I had expected that he would have supported me on that particular point instead of giving it his definite opposition Frankly, too, when the noble Marquess who is in charge of this Bill told us that morals did not enter into the question, I found it very difficult to reconcile the fact that it may be moral to bet on Monday and not moral to bet on Tuesday.
Regarding the second Part of the Bill, in which I personally am more interested, I feel that if it had been left to the unfettered vote of your Lordships' House a very different Bill would have emanated. The majority of your Lordships' House support the Government and are not anxious to vote against it. There are very few members of this House, I believe, who do not look upon lotteries, properly conducted, as a somewhat harmless form, perhaps, of sin, and a very large number of them, I should think, are absolute sinners in this respect. To have attended the discussions of the Lotteries Part of the Bill they would have had to sit for many weary hours listening to the debate on the Greyhounds Part and would even then, probably, have abstained from voting, for reasons which I have already given. It also got about, I think with some possible substratum of truth, that the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill had instructions from the Home Office to give way on no single point and, therefore, it was not worth the trouble of attending for a foregone conclusion. One has to remember in this respect that members of your Lordships' House do not all like being thought to be mere sub-labels of the National Government.
We have to remember that there is no organisation behind those who wish to see lotteries run on reasonable terms in this country, whereas their opponents are not only vociferous but thoroughly organised, and with paid secretaries, while the Home Office has been literally honeycombed with anti-lottery ideas for the last three generations. For these reasons the majority of your Lordships' House and the public have only looked

21
upon the recent debates as a means of bringing to the surface the ideas of the Government in order to assist members of another place to be forewarned so that they may have concerted action now that the views of the Government are known. As a test of opinion the public absolutely discount the opposition to lotteries in this House because the extent of that opposition is already known, and is deemed incapable of taking—I was going to say any wider view, but I do not wish to be offensive: at any rate I think their minds are made up on that point.
The sum total of the Bill, so far as I can see, after all the time that has been spent on the Bill, is that small lotteries, like those at church bazaars, are re-introduced and safeguarded for the future with the approval not only of anti-gamblers but also of members of the Church in this House and under enough regulations to rule a continent. Again, innocent domestic lotteries like club lotteries and so forth, which were doing no harm at all, are curtailed, made more difficult and often impossible for the purpose for which they were intended, such as helping charities, golf clubs and so forth. The only redeeming part of the Bill, which would have been sufficient in itself, is that which is designed to stop outside lotteries which are not only not under the control which is wished but which have also robbed the British taxpayer of many millions of pounds. The Government, in my opinion, make a real mistake in not accepting in some form or another the running of a large sweepstake under known and controlled management in this country, for, as I have said already, if they did so they would have the majority of the people on their side and every citizen of good standing would help them in their effort to stop undesirable outside lotteries. In addition, they would have helped to put out of business a large number of undesirable people who at present are making a thriving profit.
So far as I cam see the chief people who have benefited are those who run football coupon competitions. These people are to be firmly entrenched so that they can continue the beneficent work which they now carry on amongst the young. Nothing is done to deal with the question of ready-money betting, which is a difficult one I admit but not incapable of solution. But one thing is
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assured and that is that in no possible circumstances can the sick and suffering of this country be helped by any species of lottery. That is absolutely cut out, and yet the only way that I can see of helping hospitals and medicine generally is by a lottery of some sort. But an innocent lottery, carried on by that particular body for its own benefit, is now absolutely forbidden. Last but not least I would deprecate a statement made more than once during the debates on this Bill from the Government side of the House and reiterated just now by the noble Marquess himself, that we have got to do these things because the Royal Commission on betting said so. There is nothing sacrosanct about the findings of any Royal Commission, but there is something valuable in the free and unfettered opinion of Parliament in a matter of this sort. In my opinion it would still be wise if the Government were to invite the members of another place, who are more in touch with the people of this country than we are, to give their own views uncontrolled by Party ties on a question which is a matter of concern to all parties.
THE LORD AECHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, the last thing I expected when I came here this afternoon was that we should have a resumption of a Second Reading discussion o£ this whole Bill. I am very loth to take up any of the time of your Lordships, but I can scarcely let the speech just made by my noble friend Lord Mottistone pass without a certain good-natured retort. I am not going to follow him into a disquisition upon the rival effects upon public morals of horse racing, bridge-playing and greyhound racing. Nor am I going to consider for a moment what I regard as the irrelevant question of the amount that happens to be spent upon these various forms of social indulgence. The point about greyhound racing is not the amount of betting which goes on but the extent of it. What matters is the extension of betting in this very easy way over an immense multitude of our people. It is mainly in very small bets that betting on greyhound racing takes place, but it is not in the least degree less harmful because the amount of the bets is small. The point is whether or not it increases the habit of betting and gambling among the community.

23
With regard to that, from such experience as I have had I should say that beyond all question the extension of that habit is bad for the industries of this country. It produces a certain recklessness and an impatience of mind in regard to earning wages by honest work which is very serious. More than that, we all know that the time is coming when much will depend upon the use of leisure, and meanwhile anything that tends to extend the habit of gambling tends to poison the way in which that leisure is to be used. As to what the noble Lord called—he almost derided the term—a "social mischief," I agree with the noble Marquess. The evidence taken with immense care, and so far as I know with impartiality, by the Royal Commission established two things—the social evil of the extension of the habit of betting and gambling and the contribution to that habit made by greyhound racing. I know I have not the experience of proprietorship of a greyhound track which the noble Lord possesses, and that may be a disqualification to my expert knowledge but not, perhaps, to my impartiality. I venture to think, having regard to the careful conclusions reached by the Royal Commission, that your Lordships' House would not be justified, even after his admirable and good-natured observations, in supporting the noble Lord.
LORD SANDERSON: My Lords, when I spoke on the Second Reading of this Bill I said that I thought the Bill contained some good points which I should like to see carried, but I also said I thought it was not a good Bill. In the course of its passage through the House the Bill, in my opinion, has not been very much amended in the direction of improvement. There were, of course, two Amendments which I moved with regard to betting with young persons on the course and the employment of young persons on the course which the noble Marquess was good enough to accept. Those Amendments I regard, perhaps naturally, as improvements. There were some improvements made, I think, with regard to the arrangements in connection with the licensing of tracks, but apart from those I think the main Amendments have been disastrous to the Bill.
I begin with the new Clause 3. The Government in that clause went back on their original intention of making football pool betting and other forms of pool
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betting off the course—except pool betting off the course through the totalisator on; the course—illegal. The noble Marquess himself said that pool betting was a form of betting which was particularly open to fraud of a kind difficult to detect. Pool betting was strongly condemned by the Royal Commission and also by the Football Associations of England, Scotland and Wales in the evidence they gave before the Royal Commission. It is a form of betting which is increasing considerably. It is very popular with young people and I believe it is quite unnecessary to allow it, because if people want to bet on football there are plenty of opportunities for betting where fixed odds are given, opportunities of betting much less open to fraud. This clause opens the door for pool betting or pari mutuel betting on all kinds of sport. I understand it is already creeping into cricket, which I think is to be deplored. Notwithstanding all this the Government have not made illegal this form of betting, which is a very bad form of betting, in a Bill which sets out to be a measure of social reform. They have left this form of betting, which is an extremely deleterious form and likely to increase in the harm it does.
The other main Amendment which I think has been disastrous to the Bill is the Amendment increasing the percentages and the change in regard to breakages in the operation of the totalisator on greyhound courses. With regard to this Amendment I should like to say a few words as to the procedure which was adopted on the Report stage. An Amendment moved in the Committee stage by the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Sutherland, was put down again and appeared on the Marshalled List of Amendments on the morning of the day of the Report stage. That Amendment had been rejected by the Government a week earlier on the Committee stage, and rather firmly rejected, I may say. I naturally thought, certainly my noble friends behind me thought, and a great many other noble Lords probably thought, that the Government would not be likely to give way on that Amendment. Then at the last moment on the Report stage, in a rapidly thinning House, three manuscript Amendments were brought in, and we were told that they had been practically agreed outside the House. I am not saying that

25
there was anything technically wrong in that procedure of your Lordships' House. I know that the procedure of the House is very informal, and rightly so, but I think that the very fact of its informality ought to be sufficient to protect your Lordships from that kind of procedure. I am not in the least saying that it was unfair; I will not use the word "unfair"; but I do consider that it was very unfortunate procedure. I do not think it is an exaggeration when I use the word "unfortunate." It was an important Amendment. We needed time for consideration, and more time should have been given for a fuller discussion of such an important matter. I think, if I may say so, that the noble Marquess was perhaps a little too good-natured in giving way to the pressure which I have no doubt was put upon him for those Amendments to be brought forward in that way and dealt with in that way.
I myself think that those Amendments are disastrous Amendments. I made my protest at the time and I am not going to repeat it now, bat I want to add just one point with regard to that question of the percentages and the question of making greyhound tracks pay their way. I had a paper sent me the other day called, the Greyhound Express. I have it here. Probably many of your Lordships had it sent to you. That, I understand, is a paper entirely devoted to greyhound racing, and it represents the views of most of the people who are supporting greyhound races. In this paper there is an open letter on the Betting Bill from the editor. I do not know what his name is. In the course of that letter he says that there are a large number of existing greyhound racecourses which have no justification at all and that there are many which are dishonestly conducted. In another place he argues strongly for a control hoard on the lines of the Betting Control Board. He lays down certain conditions which that control board should adopt with regard to the licensing of these courses; and he says that at least three-quarters of the greyhound tracks would not qualify for licences under the conditions which he himself lays down. I ask why the Government should go out of their way to raise the percentages and the breakages in order to make these greyhound courses pay their way—greyhound courses many of which are dishonestly conducted and
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three-quarters of which would not pass a reasonable qualification for a licence.
So much for the Amendments. Passing to what I regard as the bad points in the Bill, most of them unfortunately still remain. The totalisator has been legalised on greyhound tracks with certain safeguards. On the Committee stage the noble Marquess kindly referred me, on the question of safeguards, to the First Schedule. Of course I had read that Schedule before; I always make a point of reading Bills—or having them read to me—before I speak upon them. As I say, I had read it before, but I read the Schedule again, and I still remain unconvinced that those safeguards really are a protection against betting. I still believe that although they may make the totalisator less open to fraud, they will in so far as they succeed in doing that make it a better gambling instrument, and will have the effect of increasing betting on these courses.
With regard to the second Part of the Bill, the Bill certainly makes big sweepstakes not merely illegal but more difficult to carry out, and so far it is good. That is one of the strong points in the Bill, I think; but with regard to newspaper and other competitions, I think the Bill might have gone much farther. The clause which forbids competitions except those in which a substantial degree of skill can be shown is not worth very much, and leaves the matter pretty much where it is. I have been rather surprised that we have not had the pleasure of hearing some of the distinguished legal authorities who are members of your Lordships' House on this very curious and vague phrase—so it is to me—"a substantial degree of skill." I am not a lawyer, but it does sound to me somewhat vague and not worth very much. I should have liked to hear the views of some of the noble and learned members of this House upon it.
I think the noble Marquess has had a very hard task in piloting this Bill through the House. The Bill was necessarily a compromise, and compromises are never wholly satisfactory to anybody. He has had to steer a course between more liberty on the one hand, and more social order, for which I and my noble friends behind me stand, on the other hand. Now of course increased

27
liberty means in this case not merely more liberty to people who want to bet but more liberty to people who want to make profits and exploit the people who want to bet, the gamblers. The Government, I am sure, have had to resist a good deal of pressure on the side of those who are financially interested in betting. There has been a great deal of pressure applied both outside the House and inside the House by people who are determined to make greyhound racing a paying business, and their determination has often been very thinly disguised under a rather flimsy pretext of an interest in the amusements of the working people.
The noble Marquess has gone some way in the direction of opposing that pressure, and I think the reduction in the number of days racing is one of the strongest things in the Bill. Personally I should have liked to have seen the number of days reduced still further, and I hope very much that the Government will not go back on that question, and will not increase the number of days for racing on greyhound tracks when the Bill gets to another place. On the whole, however, the pressure of those financially interested in racing, and dog racing especially, and football people, seems to have been too strong for the Government, and I think it is most unfortunate that it has been impossible for the noble Marquess to oppose some of the Amendments which have been accepted. Looking at the Bill as a whole the Government, after all, have only touched the fringe of the matter, and they have only really tinkered with the fringe in a somewhat half-hearted manner, whereas the Bill might have been a great measure of social reform, dealing in a comprehensive and thorough way with the whole subject of gambling and betting.
LORD ASKWITH: My Lords, the noble Lord who has just sat down has proceeded at considerable length. I am not going to follow him, or any of the other speakers who have made Second Reading speeches, but the noble Lord has thought fit to attack me, firstly by saying that I was unfair, and then withdrawing it and saying that it was an unfortunate proceedure which was adopted on the Report stage of the Bill. The noble Lord is still more unfortunate in his procedure in making such a speech as he has on the Third Reading of the Bill, in a depleted
28
House, when no one could possibly expect it. The reason why a change was made on the Report stage of the Bill was that originally an Amendment to substitute 7½ per cent. was down in the name of the Duke of Sutherland, who had to go away on other duties, and my name was added to it. Certain remarks were made by the noble Marquess during the Committee stage. I think his words were, that he was going to give very careful attention to the question of the "tote," but he said that he could not accept 7½ per cent.
I will read what he said:
"I have a suggestion to make after the noble Duke has finished his remarks, which I have no doubt your Lordships would like to hear. It may guide his remarks if I tell him that there is certainly no desire on the part of the Government to be unreasonable in this matter. We are quite unable to accept the proposal that the deduction should be increased to 7½ per cent., but I can assure your Lordships that if a case is made out for a slight increase in the pools, the Government will certainly consider the matter further at a later stage."
Part of the difficulty of putting down Amendments on Report, after Committee stage, is that there is no Order Paper in this House from Friday morning until Tuesday morning, and therefore if shortly after the Committee stage the Report stage is put down for the following Tuesday morning, unless Amendments are put down almost immediately they cannot be in the Amendment Paper until Tuesday morning. I heard that the noble Marquess was not going himself to propose an Amendment of the 7½ per cent, which was ready to be put down for the purpose of raising discussion and explanation, but that he would prefer that the proposal should be made by myself on behalf of the noble Duke.
Accordingly I handed to him the proposal to be made, and I emphasised it with argument and appeal to the figures which the noble Duke had used after the concession had been made on the Committee stage, and the noble Marquess was able to accept a proposal which was certainly in three Amendments, though practically all one, for a slight amelioration of the amount allowed in percentages and breakages. I am not going into the question whether the concessions given to this industry were sufficient to enable it to be run at a profit, but I merely wish to explain how it was that the manuscript

29
Amendments were handed in on the Tuesday afternoon when the Report stage of the Bill was taken in this House.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Amendments (Privilege) made.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

STATUTORY SALARIES (RESTORA- TION) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Stanhope, who usually conducts the business of the Treasury in your Lordships' House, it falls to me to move the Second Heading of this Bill. It will be within the recollection of your Lordships that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech on April 17 last, informed the House of Commons that it was the intention of the Government to restore, as from July 1 next, half the cuts in the salaries defrayed from public funds which were imposed by the second Finance Act of 1931. This Bill, your Lordships may be aware, deals only with salaries which are actually laid down by Statute. In all other cases these half cuts can be restored by administrative action. I think there is only one Ministerial salary among all the Ministers of the Crown which is affected by this Bill, and that is the salary of the Minister of Agriculture, actually fixed at £2,000 a year. In addition there are the salaries of the Speaker of the House of Commons, the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and the Governor of Northern Ireland. The cost of restoring the cuts on fixed salaries for the present financial year will amount to £21,000, or £28,000 in a full year. It will be observed that in subsection (1) of Clause 1 the Government have taken power to remove the cuts altogether, thus avoiding the need for further legislation should they, as they hope to do later on, see fit to restore the other half of the cuts. This Bill is a certified Bill under the Parliament Act. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Templemore.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, as the noble Lord has pointed out, this is a Money Bill, and therefore outside our competence. These occasions are,
30
however, very often used by your Lordships to express criticisms of official policy, and it is in the name of my colleagues who sit on these Benches that I venture to add a few words to the criticisms which the Government will receive during the course of the debate. We cannot congratulate His Majesty's Government, on the generosity which they claim for restoring half the amount of the cuts in the salaries of public servants from the month of July. We maintain that the whole amount of the reduction in the salaries of these public servants should have been restored, and not merely from a future date, but immediately. We agree entirely with the contention of the Government that, owing to the returning tide of economic prosperity, and owing to the fact that the country has proved its national solvency, the moment has come when those who were called upon to make sacrifices during the national emergency in 1931 should have their reward. We agree entirely with the Government on that point, but we maintain that they have not behaved in a generous fashion in giving public servants only half of what they lost owing to the financial crisis, and we urge that, as the Income Taxpayer has received the complete restoration of every farthing of sacrifice that he was called upon to make, the same treatment should have been accorded to those in the public service.
It appears to us, to speak quite frankly, that the satisfactory surplus which the Chancellor showed in his Budget speech has been used to benefit the more well-to-do section of the community, rather than the poorer section. The sum employed in order to restore half the amount of reduction in the payment of Government servants represents a part of the £30,000,000 surplus and a part of the approximate sum of £10,000,000 of that surplus which it is fair to say goes either to the lower middle class, or to the artisan class, or to the labouring class, or even to the unemployed. But we cannot agree that that distribution is in any sense fair—that one-third only of the total surplus of £30,000,000 should have been used to improve the position of the poorest members of the community and that the remaining two-thirds, approximately £20,000,000, should have gone into the pockets of the Income Taxpayer, and, mind you, of the comparatively well-to-

31
do Income Taxpayer as against the man whose income ranges from £300 to £600 or £700 a year. The argument that this is the greatest possible stimulus to industry is not one that we share, because exactly the same benefit would accrue to industry if the distribution of the budgetary surplus had been made in a different fashion and if the middle and lower classes had received a fair share of the national profits. That is our view, and it is a view that we would urge your Lordships seriously to consider.
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

UNEMPLOYMENT BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 21:
Amendments as to arrangements with associations of employed persons.
(2) Any quest ion arising under this section shall be referred to and determined by an insurance officer, court of referees, or the umpire as if it were a question arising under Section seventeen of the principal Act and the said Section seventeen shall have effect accordingly.
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "to and determined by an insurance officer, court of referees, or the umpire," and to insert "and determined." The noble Lord said: My Lords, the clause as it stands is inconsistent in that it requires questions to be referred to the insurance officer, court of referees, and umpire "as if they were questions arising under Section 7 of the principal Act." But the principal Act requires such questions to be dealt with in accordance with regulations, and it is by regulations, and not by the Statute, that such questions are referred to the insurance officer, etc.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 20, leave out from (" referred ") to (" as ") in line 21 and insert (" and determined ").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25:
Amendment of s. 41 of principal Act, and application of Acts to officers of reserve forces.
2) Any payments made before the commencement of this Part of this Act to the Unemployment Fund in respect of
32
men discharged between the said thirtieth day of June and the commencement of this Part of this Act Shall be increased by such an amount as may in the opinion of the Treasury be necessary, having regard to the foregoing provisions of this section.
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "to the Unemployment Fund" and insert "under the said Section forty-one by way of employers' and employed persons' contributions." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment designed to carry out what was always the intention of the Bill. The fighting Services make a lump sum payment in respect of each man discharged from the Forces to meet the cost of unemployment benefit to which the man may become entitled. Of this sum a proportion has to be paid to Northern Ireland in respect of men resident there. This payment is, however, made to the Unemployment Fund for Northern Ireland, and does not pass through the British Unemployment Fund. It is, therefore, necessary to omit the reference to the "Unemployment Fund" in Clause 25 (2) of the Bill, so as to make the subsection cover the paymentsto Northern Ireland. I must be quite frank with your Lordships and say that since it concerns payments in respect of men discharged from the Forces the Amendment is undoubtedly a Privilege Amendment. The other House, however, may be expected to waive the Privilege on the ground that the Amendment is necessary for carrying out their intentions.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 26, leave out (" to the Unemployment Fund ") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 58 [Transitory provisions as to benefit]:
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved to substitute "a claim" for "an application." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is another of the Amendments required to remove confusion in the use of the terms "claim for benefit" and "application for benefit," the need for which I explained on the Committee stage on an Amendment to Clause 4, page 4, line 19. There is a great number of these Amendments carrying the same point, and I am sorry to say I omitted this one.
Amendment, moved—
Page 57, line 16, leave out (" an application ") and insert (" a claim ").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 5 [Minor Amendments]:
LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved to add to the reference to (he Unemployment Insurance (No. 3) Act, 1931:
" Section 5.—For the definition of ' prescribed ' there shall be substituted the following definition:
' Prescribed ' means prescribed by an order made under Section one of this Act."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is purely consequential on the conversion of Anomalies "Regulations" into Anomalies "Orders," which was an alteration effected by the other House.
Amendment moved—
Page 79, line 35, insert the said new words.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 9:
NINTH SCHEDULE.
Repeals.
PART I.

Session and Chapter, or Year and Number of Order.

Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

11 & 12 Geo. 5. c. 15.

The Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1921

Sections four and ten.

15 & 16 Geo. 5. c. 70.

The Widows'. Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1925.

In subsection (1) of Section thirty - seven, the words "and to unemployment benefit under the Unemployment Acts, 1920 to 1924."

LORD ROCHESTER LORD ROCHESTER moved to add to the reference to the Unemployment Insurance. (No. 2) Act, 1921, "and in Section sixteen the definition of ' the deficiency period.'" The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is desired to add to the repeals. The point
34
is that the deficiency period is defined in the No. 2 Act of 1921, but the term is obsolete and a definition is therefore not required. This should therefore be added to the repeals set out in the Schedules of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 86, line 27, at end insert (" and in Section 16 the definition of ' the deficiency period ' ").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, the next Amendment is purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 86, line 36, at end insert (" and the First Schedule ").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LOUD ROCHESTER LOUD ROCHESTER moved, to leave out the reference to the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1925. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is required for the purposes of the Consolidation Bill which it is proposed to introduce. The repeal of the subsection of the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1925, which provides that benefit shall not be payable to a claimant who is over the age of sixty-five, is not required by anything in this Bill, and is therefore unnecessary.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, leave out lines 4 to 8.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, the next Amendment is consequential on Clause 8, subsection (2), of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 23, after (" two ") insert (" in subsection (1) of Section four the words from ' of six weeks ' to the end of the subsection ").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, the next Amendment is also consequential on the conversion of Anomalies "Regulations" into Anomalies "Orders" which was effected in the other House.
Amendment moved—
Page 88, line 17, leave out from (" and ") to the end of line 18 and insert (" in Section five the definition of ' regulations ' and subsection (3) ").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, the next Amendment includes in the Repeals Schedule two provisions relating to rates of benefit which are now repealed by Clause 5 of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 88, line 21, at end insert (" and Article two and the Second Schedule ").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, the next two Amendments are drafting Amendments to correct the order in which Sections 5 and 14 are mentioned.
Amendments moved—
Page 88, line 34, leave out (" Section fourteen ").
Page 88, line 35, after (" five ") insert (" Section fourteen ").—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LICENSING (PERMITTED HOURS) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
House adjourned at five minutes before six o'clock.

WALTHAMSTOW CORPORATION BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
RAMSGATE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
AMENDMENT TO THE HOPS MARKETING SCHEME, 1932.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That they have examined the Amendment as required by the Standing Orders of the House; that in their opinion the Amendment raises questions of policy and principle which have been accepted already by the House when passing the Agricultural Marketing Acts, 1031 and 1933, under which the Amendment is submittted for approval; that the Amendment is not founded on precedent, inasmuch as no proposal for the amendment of a Scheme has hitherto been submitted to the House; that in the opinion of the Committee the Amendment can be passed by the House without special attention, subject to any arguments on the merits which may arise in debate, and that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolution approving the said Amendment: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

CENTRAL (COAL MINES) SCHEME (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1934.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That they have examined the Amendment us required by the Standing Orders of the House; that they have received and considered a report from the Board of Trade; that in their opinion the Amendment raises questions of policy and principle which have been ac-
38
cepted already by the House when passing the Coal Mines Act, 1930, under which the Amendment is submitted for approval; that the Amendment is not founded on precedent, inasmuch as no proposal for the amendment of a Scheme has hitherto been submitted to the House; that in the opinion of the Committee the Amendment can be passed by the House without special attention, subject to any arguments on the merits which may arise in debate, 'and that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolution approving the said Amendment: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

NORTH OF SCOTLAND MILK MARKETING SCHEME, 1934.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That they have examined the Special Order as required by the Standing Orders of the House; that they have received and considered a report from the Secretary of State for Scotland; that no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Order; that in the opinion of the Committee the Order is founded on precedent, and can be passed by the House without special attention; that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolution approving the said Order: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

HOYLAKE ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1934.
NEWCASTLE-UNDER-LYME ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1934.
SOUTH MOLTON GAS ORDER, 1934.
WALLASEY ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1934.
FESTINIOG ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1934.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

BRIDGEND GAS ORDER, 1934.
  SHREWSBURY GAS ORDER, 1934.
  Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders; that they have received and considered reports from the Board of Trade upon the Orders; that they have considered Amendments proposed by the Board of Trade and recommend their adoption to the House, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.