Sitting of 19 December 1934

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
CHIEF PRESIDENCY MAGISTRATE, CALCUTTA.
Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: I beg to present a petition from six residents in Calcutta asking this honourable House to inquire into the allegations set forth in the petition against the Hon. S. J. Sinha, the Calcutta Chief Presidency Magistrate.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  LAKE TSANA (ENGINEERING SCHEMES).
  Captain CUNNINGHAM-REIDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the nature and extent of the projected engineering schemes in connection with Lake Tsana, in which the Abyssinian, Egyptian, and Sudan Governments are jointly concerned; why an American engineering firm has been entrusted with preliminary surveying work at the expense of the Egyptian Government; and whether he will consider representing to the three Governments concerned, two of which have close relations with the British Empire, the pre-eminence of British engineering firms in schemes of development in remote countries?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir John Simon): No report having yet been furnished on the most recent survey at Lake Tsana, I am unable to express an opinion as to the nature and extent of any engineering projects which might ultimately, in the opinions of the several Governments concerned, be considered desirable. With regard to the second part of the question, my hon. and gallant Friend will be aware that Lake Tsana lies wholly within Ethiopian territory: it is thus for the Ethiopian Government to decide who should be entrusted with any works
  1126
  connected with it. On the other hand, it is only equitable that those countries which may ultimately profit as the result of any schemes of development that may be executed should be responsible for the expense incurred. Previous surveys were carried out at the expense of the Sudan and I am happy to say that the Egyptian Government were consequently readily prepared on this occasion to assume responsibility for the costs of exploratory work upon a project which, if it materialises, will be equally beneficial to Egypt and to the Sudan.
  As regards the last part of the question, the Ethiopian Government, while fully informed of the ability of United Kingdom interests to carry out any works that might be decided upon, resolved in this instance to make their own arrangements with a firm entirely unconnected with any of Ethiopia's limitrophe countries.

  CHINA.

    RAILWAY LOANS (BRITISH INVESTORS).
    Mr. MOREINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with regard to the continuing default of the Tientsin-Pukow railway loan, whether payments are being regularly made as promised into a reserve account intended for the eventual liquidation of the loan; and, if not, when the last payment was made and what instalment it represented?
    Sir J. SIMON: The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is, No, Sir. In regard to the second part, I am informed that the last payment was made in October of this year representing the instalment due in September of last year.
    Mr. MOREING: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, may I ask whether he is aware that the Tientsin-Pukow Railway Company now claim that their traffic receipts are greater than they have ever been and yet evade every obligation under the original concession, including an obligation to appoint an English traffic manager? Will the right hon. Gentleman bring the utmost pressure to bear, through the appropriate channels, on the Chinese Government to see that this default is ended?
    Sir J. SIMON: His Majesty's Minister has frequently made representations on the subject of this indebtedness and will continue to press for a full and prompt carrying out of the promises made by the Chinese Government in this connection.
    Mr. MOREINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply he has received from the Chinese Government to his suggestion made at the beginning of the year that the competent department of the Chinese Government should forthwith, in consultation with the commercial counsellor of His Majesty's Legation, devise means for resuming the interest services of the railway loans now in default?
    Sir J. SIMON: In response to the suggestion from His Majesty's Minister to China a representative of the Chinese Ministry of Railways was appointed to discuss with His Majesty's commercial counsellor the question of railway loans in arrears. Discussion were duly initiated and were repeated at intervals during the present year until the departure in August last of His Majesty's commercial counsellor for duty in this country where he is discussing the position with British interests concerned. On his return an opportunity will be sought of renewing the discussions with the object of achieving a practical solution of the problem.

    RAILWAY ADVISER.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir MERVYN MANNINGHAM-BULLER(for Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDEMAN) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet been able to obtain any reports from his representatives in China regarding the appointment by the Chinese Government in the spring of this year of a German professor as railway adviser?
    Major GEORGE DAVIES (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. The Press report of such an appointment was brought to the attention of His Majesty's Minister, but no confirmation has been received either from him or from any other quarter.

    ARGENTINA (BRITISH INTERESTS).
    Mr. RANKINasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his
    1128
    attention has been called to the action taken by the Argentine authorities against British meat interests, British tramway interests, and other commercial undertakings in which British subjects are interested; whether he will inquire from the British Minister to Argentina what are the reasons for these different steps; and whether they represent any official line of policy with regard to the development of Argentina by British capital?
    Sir J. SIMON: I am carefully watching developments affecting British interests in Argentina, with regard to which His Majesty's Ambassador at Buenos Aires is keeping me fully informed, and I am also in touch with representatives of those interests here. As regards the second part of this question, I should explain that His Majesty's Ambassador is already in communication with the Argentine Government in connection with this matter. I see no reason to assume that the actions of the Argentine authorities to which my hon. Friend refers are to be interpreted as he suggests.

    MEMEL.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will inform the House as to the present position in the Memel territory and state whether he is satisfied that the terms of the Four-Power Statute are being correctly observed by the Government of Lithuania?
    Sir J. SIMON: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on the 4th December. A provisional directorate is now in office in the territory. The Diet met on the 13th December, but owing to the absence of a quorum could not proceed with the agenda. Negotiations for the reconstitution of the directorate are continuing. His Majesty's Charge d'Affaires at Kovno, who attended the session of the Diet, and has kept a close watch on the situation, reports that the Lithuanian Government appear to be endeavouring to restore the normal functioning of the constitution in the territory.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his reply. If I

    1129
    lay before him certain specific cases which appear to show that the Lithuanian Government are, and have been, consistently flouting the terms of the Four-Power Treaty will he consider them?
    Sir J. SIMON: I shall be happy to do so.

    YUGOSLAVIA AND HUNGARY.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the fact that on Friday and Saturday last further Hungarian refugees were deported from Yugoslavia; and, in view of the recent agreement, whether His Majesty's Government propose to take any action in the matter?
    Sir J. SIMON: I think my hon. and gallant Friend can be satisfied that mass expulsions definitely ceased more than a week ago, and though a limited number of deportations would seem to have taken place since for reasons which cannot be stated with certainty the majority of them are the result of the normal application of the Yugoslav aliens regulations.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these unfortunate people are ex-Hungarians or Yugoslavians; and if they have become Yuglosalvians through the Treaty of Trianon, whether it is constitutionally correct for a country to deport its own nationals?
    Sir J. SIMON: My information is that the individuals in question are not Yugoslav subjects, but of course I cannot assert with confidence that fact in regard to every case. I am having inquiries made into the whole subject.
    Mr. MOREING: Is it not the fact that the Yugoslav Government are in friendly relations with this country, and acted as our allies during the last War? Is it not undesirable that questions should be asked in this House making reflections on Yugoslavia?
    HON. MEMBERS: Why not?
    Sir J. SIMON: I do not altogether agree with the hon. Member. It is important that such questions should be couched in moderate terms because we desire to maintain friendly relations with everybody, but these expulsions have naturally attracted notice here, and His
    1130
    Majesty's Government, without going beyond their proper functions, are doing what they can to restore good feeling between the two countries.

    SAAR PLEBISCITE.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps are being taken to deal with the continued German wireless campaign inciting to violence against individuals in the Saar?
    Sir J. SIMON: I have no information to confirm the statement contained in the hon. Member's question.
    Mr. MANDER: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the specific statements in the "Times" to-day? Are they to be taken as correct?
    Sir J. SIMON: I am not prepared to take a statement in any newspaper as necessarily true, but the statement in the "Times" this morning, I observe, contains this passage:
    "The feeling to which that unfortunate affair gave rise has been agreeably countered by a striking change of tone in the broadcast comments of the German wireless stations."
    Mr. MANDER: May I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to other statements a few days ago in a contradictory sense?

    ABYSSINIA AND ITALY.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the situation with regard to the dispute between Abyssinia and Italy; and what reports he has received from British representatives on the boundary commission?
    Sir J. SIMON: I have nothing at present to add to the very full statement which I made in answer to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) on Monday.
    Mr. MANDER: May I ask whether the matter has been referred to the League of Nations for report or for action?

    PALESTINE AND TRANSJORDAN (MINING LEGISLATION).
    Duchess of ATHOLLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) the reasons why the mining laws of

    1131
    Palestine and Transjordan have been caused to cease to function;
    (2) whether he is aware that, when the mining laws of Palestine and Transjordan were recently suspended, a British group who were prepared immediately to develop the Dead Sea oilfield in the furtherance of the interests of Palestine and Transjordan and as a means of providing a British-controlled and British-protected oilfield vitally necessary to our defence services, were unable to commence operations; and whether, when mining laws are once more in force, this group will be given an opportunity of making further proposals?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): It recently became apparent that some revision of the mining legislation in Palestine and Transjordan will be required in the interests of a proper search for oil and the development of any oil resources that may be found in these territories, and it has therefore been decided that no further exploration permits shall be granted until this revision has taken place. At the time when this decision was reached, several applications for permits had been received. When the necessary amendments of the legislation have been enacted, further consideration will be given to these applications. The revision of the legislation is at present proceeding.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea when the law will be revised, and when that takes place will he bear in mind that oilfields should be developed in the national interest and as much as possible by British efforts?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I cannot say when the legislation will be completed. While there should be no unnecessary delay, it is important that it should be in the best possible form. I can assure the Noble Lady that one of the matters in which I thought the legislation was slightly defective was in securing that when a lease is granted you should get adequate advantages from the owner.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir ARNOLD WILSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is very improbable that there is an oilfield there?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: All I can say is that as far as scientific exploration has gone the figures up to date are not frightfully optimistic.

  AVIATION.

    AERODROMES (LIGHTING).
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Undersecretary of State for Air which public civil aerodromes, north of London, are at present equipped with permanent flood lights for night landings; and whether any others are about to be erected?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Philip Sassoon): No civil aerodrome, north of London, licensed for public use at present has permanent flood lights; and so far as I am aware no arrangements have been made for providing such equipment at these aerodromes.
    Mr. EVERARD: Does not the Undersecretary agree that we are behind in this matter? Cannot his Department bring pressure to bear on municipalities to light their aerodromes at night?
    Sir P. SASSOON: We think it advisable, and one or two authorities are contemplating doing so.

    BRITISH AND FRENCH AIR LINES.
    Captain CUNNINGHAM-REIDasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he has been approached by the French Government with a view to considering the best means of improving, by collaboration, the economic, yield of the British and French air lines, as has already been arranged between France and Germany; and, if so, what progress the negotiations have made?
    Sir P. SASSOON: A proposal of the nature referred to was made by the French Government in connection with the recent negotiations in regard to Imperial Airways' services across France. The question was regarded, however, as being primarily a commercial one for discussion between the operating companies concerned, and in any case the particular negotiations out of which it arose are, I am glad to say, in course of settlement.

    LICENSED PILOTS (PHYSICAL EFFICIENCY).
    Captain CUNNINGHAM-REIDasked the Under-Secretary of State for

    1133
    Air whether the Secretary of State has considered the recommendation of the Gorell Committee on Civil Aviation that the medical regulations regarding the standard of physical efficiency of pilots holding B licences should contain special recognition of the position of older pilots of ripe experience and proved ability; and whether he is proposing to take the necessary action to implement this recommendation?
    Sir P. SASSOON: Yes, Sir; my Noble Friend proposes to act in accordance with this recommendation of the Gorell Committee in appropriate cases. No amendment of the existing regulations is necessary.

    FLYING BOATS.
    Rear-Admiral Sir MURRAY SUETERasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he can give the chief characteristics of the larger flying boat now being constructed at Toulouse and compare this machine's dimensions, etc., with the largest flying boat being constructed in this country for civil aviation?
    Sir P. SASSOON: I understand that the flying boat referred to will be about 103 feet in length and 161 feet in wing span, and have an all-up weight of some 69,000 lb. There is no flying boat of similar size at present under construction in this country.

    EMPIRE AIR ROUTES (EUROPEAN SECTION).
    Mr. LOUIS SMITH(for Mr. LYONS) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether arrangements have yet been completed for Imperial Airways to fly over France or Italy so as to eliminate the train journey, Paris to Brindisi; whether this will include any night flying; and from what date it will be effective?
    Sir P. SASSOON: An agreement with Italy has been signed and, as I informed the House a few days since, a provisional understanding having been reached with the French Government, I am hopeful that a similar agreement in respect of France will be formally concluded in the very early future. When this latter also has been signed, there will still necessarily be a considerable amount of preparatory work to be undertaken before Imperial Airways can put this section of
    1134
    the route into actual operation; and, until the organisation is further advanced, I shall not be in a position to give a date for its completion or information as to the company's future timetable and precise methods of operation.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    FIGHTING AEROPLANES.
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether it is proposed to fit wheel brakes to the new types of fighting machines to be used in the Royal Air Force?
    Sir P. SASSOON: All new types of fighting aeroplanes are being fitted with wheel brakes.
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he has under consideration the use of closed fighters for the Royal Air Force?
    Sir P. SASSOON: Yes, Sir; and experiments are being made.

    ACCIDENTS.
    Mr. THORNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he can give any information to the House in connection with the three men who were killed as a result of a collision in midair of two aeroplanes near Castle Bromwich aerodrome, Birmingham; if he can state how many Royal Air Force men and aeroplanes have been involved in accidents this year; and how many men have been killed?
    Sir P. SASSOON: As regards the first part of the question, the investigation is still proceeding and I am not, therefore, in a position to supplement the answer which I gave on Wednesday last to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, East (Mr. Mander). As regards the remainder of the question, 68 Royal Air Force aircraft have been involved this year in accidents in which the occupants were killed or injured, the number killed being 31 and injured 58: the latter figure includes four members of other services flying on duty in Royal Air Force aeroplanes. I am glad to be able to add that the number of deaths to date this year is the lowest on record.
    Mr. THORNE: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that this inquiry will be able to prove how it was that these two planes came into collision?
    Sir P. SASSOON: I shall have to await the result of the investigation before expressing an opinion.

    SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE.
    Sir M. SUETERasked the Undersecretary of State for Air whether he is in a position to say when the Supplementary Estimate for Air Services will be introduced; and whether an opportunity can be arranged for a discussion on this Estimate?
    Sir P. SASSOON: It is anticipated that a Supplementary Estimate for Air Services will be introduced in February. The time available for discussion of this Estimate will depend on the state of public business at the date of its presentation.
    Sir WALDRON SMITHERS: Can my right hon. Friend say what the amount will be?
    Sir P. SASSOON: I cannot say.

    STONEHENGE.
    Sir PERCY HURDasked the First Commissioner of Works why his Department has decided to make a ear park on land adjacent to Stonehenge?
    The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): Cars and chars-a-banc are at present parked in the immediate neighbourhood of Stonehenge, and, with a view to removing this unsightly spectacle which disfigures the view of the monument, the National Trust have very kindly agreed to an arrangement by which cars will be parked further away from the stones, and will be far less conspicuous. The National Trust have not alienated the site of the car park but have made the Commissioners of Works guardians of it under the Ancient Monuments Acts.
    Sir P. HURD: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the concern that is felt by those who created the movement which safeguarded Stonehenge; and will he be willing to receive representations before the car park is made?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have been very much concerned to remove the existing nuisance and to get the cars farther away from the monument to a place where they will not be visible from the
    1136
    stones. I also propose, if I can see my way to the finance, to remove the two unsightly cottages, so that we may improve the monument. As the aim of myself and of those for whom my hon. Friend is expressing his views is identical, I do not see what there is to be gained by suggesting that I am doing something very wrong.
    Sir P. HURD: Would it not be of value if my right hon. Friend had some local knowledge brought to bear on the matter?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have been there myself; my chief advisers have been there; and I have received representations from local people asking that it be removed. I know of only one person in Wiltshire who objects.
    Sir ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL: In view of the increased number of visitors to Stonehenge, and the danger of defacement of the stones, will my right hon. Friend consider the appointment of more custodians?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have two custodians there. One admits visitors and collects the sixpences, which provide a considerable revenue, and another is always on the look-out. I have not had any evidence of defacement of the stones.

  MERCANTILE MARINE.

    WAGES OF CREWS.
    Mr. CLARRYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state the respective general wage rates of seamen and stokers in the British Mercantile Marine, together with the comparable rates paid by the principal foreign maritime countries; and if he will differentiate between those rates which do not include workmen's compensation, health, and social services similar to the British standard?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): As regards the first part of the question, I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the latest available information about comparative wages for seamen and firemen in a number of maritime countries. I regret that I am unable to furnish the information asked for in the latter part of the question.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that the interests

    Comparative table of Monthly Wages of Able Seamen and Firemen on foreign-going vessels.

    Country.

    Able Seaman.

    Fireman.

    In National Currency.

    In Sterling.

    In National Currency.

    In Sterling.

    £

    s.

    d.

    £

    s.

    d.

    Great Britain

    …

    …

    £8 2s. 0d.

    8

    2

    0

    £8 12s. 0d.

    8

    12

    0

    Belgium

    …

    …

    837 francs

    *7

    16

    2

    903 francs

    8

    8

    5

    Denmark

    …

    …

    158 kroner

    7

    1

    1

    162 kroner

    7

    4

    8

    Finland

    …

    …

    825–875 F. marks

    3

    12

    9–

    860–910 F. marks (Greaser).

    3

    15

    10–

    3

    17

    2

    4

    0

    3

    France

    …

    …

    585 francs

    7

    14

    2

    635 francs

    8

    7

    5

    Germany

    …

    …

    103 marks

    *8

    5

    8

    113 marks

    9

    1

    10

    Greece

    …

    …

    —

    4

    16

    0

    —

    5

    6

    0

    Holland

    …

    …

    80 florins

    *10

    16

    3

    84 florins

    11

    7

    0

    Italy

    …

    …

    470 lire

    *8

    1

    0

    498·2 lire

    8

    10

    8

    Japan

    …

    …

    40 yen

    2

    5

    0

    40 yen

    2

    5

    0

    Norway

    …

    …

    144 kroner

    7

    4

    9

    149 kroner

    7

    9

    9

    Spain

    …

    …

    135 pesetas

    3

    13

    8

    150 pesetas

    4

    1

    11

    Sweden

    …

    …

    152 kronor

    7

    16

    8

    152 kronor

    7

    16

    8

    NOTES.—(1) Currencies have been converted at the rate of exchange on 14th November, 1934.

    (2) *On gold standard.

    (3) The figures for Italy relate to cargo vessels only.

    FOREIGN DISCRIMINATING REGULATIONS.
    Mr. CLARRYasked the President of the Board of Trade which countries inclusive of the Dominions, enforce discriminating regulations against British shipping, whether by rates, rebates, subsidies or differential port facilities?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: A number of countries give financial assistance in one form or another to their shipping, but, with one or two exceptions, I am not aware of the existence of any overt discrimination against British shipping of the kinds referred to by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. CLARRY: Has my right hon. Friend also in mind any question of retaliatory measures against those countries which discriminate against British shipping?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have particularly in mind the discrimination by the Portuguese colonies. I am glad to say that, by arrangement, that is now coming to an end.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in certain ports British liners are forbidden to land their passengers from their electric pinnaces,
    of the workpeople in reference to wages are taken into account?
    Following is the information:
    and does he not think it is rather unfair that they should be compelled to take very unseaworthy tugs to land passengers when they have adequate launches on board?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot without notice answer a question as to a particular instance such as that mentioned. If my hon. Friend will let me have particulars, I will look into them.

    STEAMSHIP "QUEEN MARY" (CLYDE DREDGING).
    Lieut.-Colonel SANDEMAN ALLENasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the expenditure of £12,000 plus in dredging the Clyde to permit the passage of the "Queen Mary," is to be paid for by the builders, the port authorities, or local authorities?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have no information on this subject.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    MACHINERY IMPORTS.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the retained imports of

    1139
    machinery in the last 11 months amounted to £9,657,000; and, as approximately 80 per cent. of this total belongs to classes which the Import Duties Advisory Committee has decided can be produced efficiently in the United Kingdom, if he will state what steps he proposes to take to secure for British workpeople the employment represented by the unnecessary importation of approximately £7,750,000 worth of machinery?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The procedure for duty free importation under licence does not apply to every class of machinery. In many cases, therefore, the question whether a particular consignment of machinery is of a kind procurable in the United Kingdom has not been before the Import Duties Advisory Committee. Accordingly it cannot be assumed that all the retained imports of foreign machinery could be procured in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Does my right hon. Friend endorse the statement of his Parliamentary colleague that all this importation is necessary on the ground that this machinery cannot be manufactured in this country?
    Sir FRANK SANDERSON: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the linseed crushing industry in this country has been brought to a state of ruin owing to the low import duty on linseed oil, and the imposition of a tax on linseed from the Argentine?

    COTTON INDUSTRY (SURPLUS SPINDLES).
    Mr. CROSSLEYasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is prepared to grant assistance by way of a Government guaranteed loan in order to accelerate the scheme of Lord Colwyn's committee for the elimination of redundant spindles;
    (2) whether he has any statement to make on the Government's attitude towards the scheme for the elimination of surplus spindles drawn up by a committee appointed by the Federation of Master Cotton Spinners under the independent chairmanship of Lord Colwyn; whether the scheme requires legislation to render it effective; and, if so, have the Government decided to introduce it as a matter of urgency?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have followed with deep interest the discussions which have been proceeding in the spinning section of the cotton industry as to methods of improving the condition and competitive power of the industry. I have been in close touch with representatives of the interests concerned. I have informed those responsible for the scheme to which my hon. Friend refers that if the proposals for the elimination of surplus spindles received the support of a sufficiently influential proportion of the trade, I shall be prepared to ask Parliament for statutory sanction for the collection of the necessary levy. As regards finance, the scheme on which the ballot is being taken is based upon a levy on 30 million running spindles. The committee responsible for the scheme state that such a charge would not impose an undue burden upon the industry if spread equitably over all firms. I have assured the committee that if, notwithstanding statutory sanction for the levy, they are unable to borrow the necessary loan on the security thus provided—and the success of the scheme is thereby endangered, the Government would find some way to assist them to borrow the money.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, am I right in saying that in fact an adequate majority has been assured?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The answer to that question must turn on what is meant by "adequate." I am glad to say that there is a much larger majority for this scheme than for any of its predecessors.
    Mr. THORNE: Has the right hon. Gentleman got any approximate estimate of the number of redundant spindles in Lancashire?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: It is very largely a matter of opinion. For the purpose of discussion, I have accepted the view of the representative committee.
    Mr. CROSSLEY(for Lieut.-Colonel Sir WALTER SMILES) asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that many owners of spinning mills are anxious to adapt their machinery to the spinning of Indian cotton but are unable to obtain the necessary finance for this; and whether the Government will be prepared to grant

    1141
    special assistance for this purpose and will issue a statement on the subject?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: My information is that the plant now available in Lancashire for spinning Indian cotton, or capable of being adapted to such use at a moderate expenditure within the normal resources of the firms concerned, is sufficient to deal with a greatly increased consumption of Indian cotton and that the provision of finance by the Government for this purpose is neither necessary nor desirable. I may add that the consumption of Indian cotton in the United Kingdom in the first nine months of this year was three times as large as in the first nine months of 1932.
    Mr. CROSSLEY: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the last three months it has gone down very heavily; and is he further aware that there are a large number of firms who are constantly anxious to spin this cotton but who cannot obtain finance at the present time?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The whole question is mixed up, not only with the increase or decrease during certain periods, but with technical problems which are of first-rate importance.

    TRADE AGREEMENTS AND NEGOTIATIONS (PERU).
    Mr. KIRKPATRICKasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is negotiating, or intends to negotiate, a trade agreement with Peru?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Government have agreed to the request of the Peruvian Government to' enter into commercial negotiations.

  POST OFFICE.

    IRISH SWEEPSTAKES (TICKETS AND CORRESPONDENCE).
    Mr. PIKEasked the Postmaster-General whether correspondence addressed to Northern Ireland suspect of containing matter relative to the Irish Hospitals Sweepstakes is liable to opening and search by his Department; and under what statutory authority such action is taken?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Kingsley Wood): Yes, Sir; postal packets suspect of containing matter relative to the Irish Hospitals Trust Sweepstakes addressed to persons in Northern Ireland
    1142
    would be liable to be detained in pursuance of the powers referred to in Section 56 of the Post Office Act of 1908.
    Mr. PIKE: In view of the fact that the Act of 1908 was passed before the Betting and Lotteries Act of 1934, Section 33, Subsection (3) of which states that it does not apply to Northern Ireland, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the powers under the 1908 Act are not annulled by the 1934 Act?
    Sir K. WOOD: No, Sir. I am advised that they are not.
    Mr. PIKEasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that on the evening of 12th December, 1934, the Belfast (Northern Ireland) postal authorities held in transit, pending instructions from his Department, 50,000 tickets and counterfoils in the Irish Hospitals (1935) Sweepstake; whether these steps were taken at his instruction; and, if so, under what statutory authority?
    Sir K. WOOD: No, Sir; I have caused inquiries to be made and I have ascertained that there is no truth in the story.
    Mr. PIKE: If there is no truth in that story, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on 26th November, no less than 120,000 tickets were seized at Banbridge and removed to the Customs station at Newry and that two Dundalk men who were in charge of the tickets, were released pending instructions?

    LAW CASE, BIRMINGHAM.
    Sir A. WILSONasked the Postmaster-General whether he has considered the observations made by the county court judge at Birmingham, on 14th December, on a case in which his Department was defendant; and what, if any, action is contemplated in the matter?
    Sir K. WOOD: I understand that the solicitors acting on behalf of the applicant have given notice of appeal, and the case must therefore still be regarded as sub judice.

    TELEPHONE CHARGES (NEW YEAR'S DAY).
    Mr. NEIL MACLEANasked the Postmaster-General, in view of the fact that he has extended the cheap night rates for Christmas from 5 p.m. on Christmas Eve to 2 p.m. on Christmas Day to enable the public to exchange Christmas greetings by telephone, that the cheap facilities for the New Year are

    1143
    only to midnight on 31st December, and that normal rates will be charged on New Year's Day, whether the normal rates mean that the night rate will operate from 12 midnight until 5 a.m. on New Year's morning; and, if not, whether he will consider continuing that rate during those hours to give subscribers in Scotland a similar opportunity of exchanging greetings with their friends on the day which at that period is observed generally by Scottish people?
    Sir K. WOOD: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; the second part does not therefore arise.
    Mr. MACLEAN: The first part of the question refers to Christmas Day and the second part to New Year's Day in Scotland—two separate days. I am asking the right hon. Gentleman whether the night rate will operate from 12 midnight until 5 a.m. on New Year's morning to give Scottish subscribers facilities similar to those which are to be available at Christmas, and I want an answer to that part of the question to allay public feeling in Scotland?

    —

    Halifax County Borough.

    Huddersfield County Borough.

    Bradford County Borough.

    Per 1,000 Live Births.

    Per 1,000 Total (Live and Still) Births.

    Per 1,000 Live Births.

    Per 1,000 Total (Live and Still) Births.

    Per 1,000 Live Births.

    Per 1,000 Total (Live and Still) Births

    1931

    3·21

    3·10

    4·99

    4·73

    4·91

    4·68

    1932

    9·25

    8·75

    5·19

    4·88

    5·97

    5·69

    1933

    10·94

    10·28

    9·24

    8·81

    4·87

    4·65

    Average 1924 to1933

    7·19

    —

    5·73

    —

    5·35

    —

    N.B.—During the decennium1924–1933, the basis of maternal mortality rates was changed from live births alone to the total of live and still births. As figures for the earlier years of the decennium are available on the original basis only the ten years' averages have been calculated upon that basis; and for purposes of comparison the figures for the last three separate years are given upon both bases.

    BOX HILL (BUNGALOWS).
    Sir P. HURDasked the Minister of Health in what circumstances he has approved of the erection of 25 bungalows at the foot of Box Hill, in Surrey; and what were the reasons which led the Dorking Urban District Council and its Town Planning Committee, the Surrey County Council, and the National Trust to oppose the plans as being detrimental to the amenities of the district?
    Sir K. WOOD: I will gladly do so. As I read the question, I thought the first part of it was a recital and that it ended up with the question whether "normal rates" meant that the night rates would operate from 12 midnight to 5 a.m. on New Year's Day and my answer to that is in the affirmative.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Thank you.

    MATERNAL MORTALITY (YORKSHIRE).
    Mr. GLEDHILLasked the Minister of Health the figures of maternal mortality for the last three complete years in Halifax, Huddersfield, and Bradford, and the average maternal mortality rate in each of these boroughs for the past 10 years?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Shakespeare): As the answer involves a tabular statement, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate the statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: My right hon. Friend's decision in this case was given upon an application made to him under Section 10 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, after consideration of the report of one of his inspectors who held a local inquiry into the matter. It is understood that the Dorking Urban District Council themselves propose to zone this area for residential purposes at a density of two houses to the acre.

    1145
    If account is taken, as it should be, of a part of the site which the owner is prepared to reserve as an open space, the development will be in conformity with these proposals of the council. The opposition to the application was based mainly on the view that buildings of the type proposed would be likely to mar the view from Box Hill and otherwise detract from the beauty of the locality. As regards this, my right hon. Friend has made it a term of his decision that the trees on the estate, other than those whose removal is necessary for the erection of the buildings, shall be preserved. It is clear that buildings of one storey screened by trees are less conspicuous than large buildings of two or more storeys, and in view of this and of the other considerations to which I have referred, my right hon. Friend did not feel justified in refusing the application.
    Sir P. HURD: May I ask whether the Ministry is not concerned with the opinion held on the subject by the Surrey County Council, which is the town planning authority for the area, and also by the National Trust?
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is a much larger question than one of the amenities of the district; that Box Hill is one of the beauty spots of London obtained at much expenditure of money and also by the generosity of local landowners; and that the tops of these bungalows will be visible from the hill and will be a grave spoiling of the landscape?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: I can assure my hon. Friends that all these matters were very carefully inquired into when the inspector held the local inquiry, and the opinions of the various bodies were taken into consideration then. In all these matters of town planning, it is a question of arriving at a compromise between controlled development and the preservation of amenities, and I think the best solution in this case has been found.
    Sir W. SMITHERS: On the wider question, what principle guides the Ministry and why do they support local authorities in some cases and turn them down in others?

  AGRICULTURE.

    FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
    Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHSasked the Minister of Agriculture how many cattle and pigs have been destroyed in the West Biding of Yorkshire in this last outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease?
    Major G. DAVIES: I have been asked to reply. The numbers are 61 cattle and 110 pigs.

    HOME-GROWN BARLEY (BREWERS' PURCHASES).
    Mr. de ROTHSCHILDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the proportion of home-grown barley used in the manufacture of British beer in the year June, 1932, to June, 1933, and the year June, 1933, to June, 1934; and whether he is satisfied that the Brewers' Society are implementing the undertaking given to him in April, 1933, to take all possible steps to increase the proportion of home-grown barley used by British brewers in consideration of the reduction in Beer Duty granted by the Finance Act of 1933?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Duff Cooper): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on the 29th November to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Louth (Lieut.-Colonel Heneage) and my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall).
    Mr. de ROTHSCHILD: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these figures were asked for by the Council of Agriculture and were refused; will he consider whether he cannot give the House the figures that he has at present and the names of the firms who refuse to give these figures to the farmers; and does he realise how dissatisfied the farmers are at present that the brewers are not implementing the promise which they made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the last Budget?
    Mr. COOPER: As I have already informed previous hon. Members who asked the same question, these figures are not available. They do not exist so far as the Government are aware. I also said, in reply to the second part of the question, that we have no evidence to prove or to show that the brewers are not implementing their share of the bargain.
    Mr. de ROTHSCHILD: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the brewers have refused to give these figures to the Council of Agriculture, and will the Government give this House those figures that the Government have at the present time, and publish the names of those brewers who refuse to give these figures?
    Mr. COOPER: The Government have no figures to give the House.
    Captain PETER MACDONALD: Can my hon. Friend not ask the brewers to give these figures or to state the reason why they will not?
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: Is the hon. Gentleman making inquiries as to whether the brewers are in point of fact carrying out their undertaking to the Government?
    Mr. COOPER: I have already informed the House that, so far as the Government are aware, so far as they have been able to ascertain, the brewers are doing their best to implement their promise.
    Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: How can the Government ascertain it if they do not ask the brewers for the figures?

    CHRISTMAS (PEACE PROPAGANDA).
    Vice-Admiral TAYLORasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider taking such steps as may be necessary to inaugurate a two minutes silence immediately following upon the broadcast of His Majesty's speech on the afternoon of Christmas Day, in order that all those who earnestly desire peace in the world may be united in their efforts at this time to attain this end?
    Sir F. SANDERSONasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the desire prevailing among all nations for international peace and the spirit of goodwill that is more in evidence at this season of the year than at any other, he will use the opportunity that now offers to further the cause of peace by inaugurating in Christmas week a two-minutes silence, during which interval all true seekers after peace may, by their united thoughts, promote the advent of a lasting peace amongst the nations of the world?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): While I fully appreciate and respect the motives prompting my hon. Friends' questions, which I have no doubt the public also will have in mind, I do not think that the particular expression of them which they suggest is one that the Government can inaugurate.
    Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: While thanking the Prime Minister for his sympathetic answer, may I ask him whether he is aware of the immense power of mass concentrated thought and the enormous help which could thereby be given to the furtherance of world peace, especially at this season when there is already such a great foundation of peace and good will? May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider that answer, in view of the fact that millions of people not only in this country but throughout the world will be listening on Christmas Day to the gracious message of His Majesty, and not to miss this unique opportunity of advancing the cause of peace?

    ROYAL WEDDING (POLICE SERVICES).
    Mr. THORNEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he intends recognising in some way the services that were given by the police officers and constables who were on duty at the Royal Wedding on 29th November?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): I am not sure what form of recognition the hon. Member may contemplate, but I may perhaps remind him that the services of the police on the occasion of the Royal Wedding have already been the subject of a special message of appreciation and thanks from His Majesty the King.
    Mr. THORNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman not consider giving some recognition to the police in the shape of a monetary consideration?

    MINISTERS OF THE CROWN (ARMAMENT SHARES).
    Mr. COCKSasked the Prime Minister whether there is any rule forbidding Ministers of the Crown holding

    1149
    shares in armament firms; and, if not, whether he will consider issuing such a rule?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative: the rule against holding any directorships is quite a different matter. It is impossible to draw the line between armament and non-armament firms or between firms incidentally concerned in producing some element which might be used for war, and others. The effective safeguard lies in the traditional standards of public life in this country.
    Mr. COCKS: Would not the Prime Minister consider the inadvisability of Ministers holding shares in firms of contractors for the Government, such as Vickers?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That question ought to be put down separately. As a matter of fact, I think they do not.

    SUBSIDIES AND GRANTS.
    Mr. LAWSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total cost to the Exchequer up to 30th November, 1934, and the estimated amount payable up to March, 1935, for subsidies and other payments for the assistance of various industries?
    Mr. COOPER: I understand that the hon. Member desires the total cost as from October, 1931. Subsidies and similar payments made in respect of civil aviation, beet sugar, cattle, milk, herrings, light horse breeding, mechanical transport and Western Highlands and Islands transport services during the period October, 1931, to November, 1934, amounted to £12,589,000 approximately, and the cost between that date and 31st March, 1935, is estimated at £4,212,000 approximately. The approximate housing subsidy figures for the same periods are £47,320,000 and £6,700,000 respectively.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can furnish an estimate of the cost in a full year of the aggregate expenditure involved in the shipping, beef, and milk subsidies, the Depressed Areas Bill, and including the additional expenditure arising from the new regulations under the Unemployment Act, 1934?
    Mr. COOPER: The various items of expenditure to which my hon. Friend refers differ so widely both as regards the incidence of cost and the period of time covered by the grants that I fear it would be misleading to attempt to give any such figure as he requests. The cost to the Exchequer for the financial year 1935 will, of course, appear in the annual Estimates.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    CUSTOMS AND EXCISE.
    Mr. LEONARDasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what increase has taken place in the staff of the Department of Customs, either by additions or transfers from other Departments, since 1st February, 1932; and what has been the additional annual cost?
    Mr. COOPER: The increase in the number of staff of the Department of Customs and Excise from all sources, from 1st January, 1932, to 1st October, 1934, the nearest dates for which figures are readily available, was 1,968. The increased cost per annum is estimated at approximately £400,000.

    WAGES.
    Mr. BANFIELDasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the number of non-industrial workers and industrial workers, respectively, in receipt of less than 35s. a week, 40s. a week, 50s. a week, and 60s. a week in the different branches of the Civil Service other than the Post Office, giving, in each case, the type of worker which is receiving this remuneration?
    Mr. COOPER: Information in the form desired is not immediately available. I am, however, causing the necessary inquiries to be made, and will communicate the results to the hon. Member in due course.

    WOMEN (SALARIES).
    Miss CAZALETasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the number of women holding posts in the Civil Service whose salaries are less than those of men whom they are supervising?
    Mr. COOPER: I regret that the information desired by my hon. Friend is not immediately available, and the extensive investigation which would be

    1151
    necessary in order to obtain it would not, I feel, be justified. The cases which my hon. Friend has in mind must, I think, be rare.
    Miss CAZALET: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that the position of these women as regards pay is both unfair and undignified, and will he take steps to see if he cannot rectify the position, even if there are only a few cases?
    Mr. COOPER: There may be a few cases, but it is equally possible that there are cases where men in a superior position are receiving less than men working under them.

    RUSSIA (BRITISH CLAIMS).
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the Treasury has any claim against any banking or trading firms trading in this country under the Tsarist régime, either as creditor or under bonô vacantia; and, if so, whether it is proposed to prosecute these claims?
    Mr. COOPER: The Treasury has claims as a creditor against certain banks and trading firms incorporated under the law of Tsarist Russia, and formerly carrying on business in this country, which are being wound up under the provisions of the Companies Acts. Proofs in respect of these claims have been lodged in the liquidation and the claims are being prosecuted. The question whether any title to a surplus arising in such liquidation accrues to the Crown as bonô vacantia will be considered in due course.
    Mr. WHITE: May I assume from my hon. Friend's reply that the Government are in fact doing everything possible to clear up the uncertainty in regard to these very large sums of money?
    Mr. COOPER: Yes, Sir.

    UNEMPLOYMENT (PUBLIC ASSISTANCE).
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Minister of Labour whether, in computing the allowance to be paid to families under the Unemployment Assistance Act Regulations, the cost of free milk supplied to mothers and children or the cost of school meals will be taken into account?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. R. S. Hudson): I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend on Monday last in regard to these points.
    Dr. ADDISONasked the Minister of Labour whether it will be open to the commissioners administering the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1934, in respect of persons now receiving assistance from public assistance committees and who may hereafter be dealt with by the commissioners, to require repayment of assistance granted as provided in Sections 49 to 51 of the Poor Law Act, 1930?
    Mr. HUDSON: I am afraid I do not understand the meaning of the right hon. Gentleman's question; perhaps he will speak to me and put it down again. I may mention, however, that the Unemployment Assistance Board will have no power to give assistance on loan.

  KENYA.

    DEFENCE FORCE ORDINANCE.
    Major MILNERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the law relating to conscription in Kenya Colony includes the oath of allegiance to His Majesty the King?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The Kenya Defence Force Ordinance, to which I presume the hon. and gallant Member refers, does not provide for the taking of an oath of allegiance.
    Major MILNER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why not, and whether the recruitment of a conscript force holding no allegiance to His Majesty has the approval of the Government?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Every citizen of this country or of any dependency of the Crown owes allegiance to His Majesty, but the question of the particular oath of allegiance to be taken by this force was carefully gone into at the time, and I can send to the hon. and gallant Member a note of the answer given at the time, giving the reasons.
    Major MILNER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the object of the recruitment of this force? Is it to overawe the natives?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, most certainly not. The object of the recruitment of civilians in this force is the same now as it was when the Labour Government were in office.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES(for Mr. DAGGAR) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why some 200 male British residents in Kenya Colony have been taken to a detention camp for refusal to observe the requirements of the Kenya Defence Force Ordinance, seeing that the Ordinance provides for the exemption of conscientious objectors?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am informed by the Governor of Kenya that there is no foundation for the rumour to which the hon. Member refers.

    CONDUCT OF NATIVES.
    Major MILNERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there has been any native disorder in Kenya during the past 10 years; and, if so, what was the cause and character of such disorder?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am happy to say that nothing which I think can properly be termed "disorder" has occurred in Kenya during the past 10 years.

  TRANSPORT.

    PEDESTRIAN CROSSING-PLACES, STRATFORD.
    Mr. THORNE(for Mr. GROVES) asked the Minister of Transport what steps have been taken to implement his promise to arrange changes in traffic regulations and, in conjunction with the local highways authority, safety crossings immediately adjacent to the Town Hall, Stratford?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Hore-Belisha): I am glad to be able to inform the hon. Member that it has now been possible, in accordance with the hon. Member's suggestion, to make the necessary changes in the traffic arrangements at the Town Hall, Stratford, and to provide pedestrian crossings opposite to it.

    GOODS VEHICLES (LICENSING).
    Mr. JOHN LOCKWOODasked the Minister of Transport whether he will consider representations being made by the Road Haulage Association as to the
    1154
    hardship caused to many road transport concerns, owing to the loss of claimed tonnage when modernising a fleet with lighter vehicles?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The licensing of goods vehicles is within the discretion of the traffic area licensing authorities, from whose decisions there is a right of appeal to the special appeal tribunal set up under the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933. I have no power to intervene.

    PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (ST. STEPHEN'S PORCH).
    Captain FULLERasked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that the decorative plans on each side of the doorway in St. Stephen's Porch are, in spite of a warning notice, being damaged by fingering and dust; and whether he will consider placing an effective ventilated glass covering over them to prevent deterioration?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: My hon. Friend's suggestion was considered two years ago, but owing to the expense and the disadvantage arising from reflections on the glass, I decided that glazing was unnecessary. I have recently examined the paintings and am unable to find any trace of damage. I am, however, arranging for the paintings to be dusted more frequently during humid weather. The glazing of the paintings would not remedy the nuisance arising from dust but would, I think, be calculated to make it worse.

    GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL,
    "to make further provision for the government of India," presented by Secretary Sir Samuel Hoare; supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Baldwin, Sir John Simon, the Attorney-General, and Mr. Butler; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 29th January, and to be printed. [Bill 17.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on the Educational Endowments (Scotland) Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 41.

Division No. 25.]

AYES.

[3.32 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Glossop, C. W. H.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A

Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

Orr Ewing, I. L.

Albery, Irving James

Goff, Sir Park

Patrick, Colin M.

Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd. N.)

Peake, Osbert

Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

Pearson, William G.

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

Graves, Marjorle

Petherick, M.

Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

Greene, William P. C.

Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

Apsley, Lord

Grimston, R. V.

Pike, Cecil F.

Aske, Sir Robert William

Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

Assheton, Ralph

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Atholl, Duchess of

Guy, J. C. Morrison

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd)

Procter, Major Henry Adam

Balniel, Lord

Harbord, Arthur

Radford, E. A.

Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

Harris, Sir Percy

Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th. C.)

Hartington, Marquess of

Rea, Walter Russell

Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)

Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

Bernays, Robert

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham

Blindell, James

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Reid, William Allan (Derby)

Borodale, Viscount

Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U

Bossom, A. C.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Boulton, W. W.

Holdsworth, Herbert

Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Rothschild, James A. de

Boyce, H. Leslie

Howard, Tom Forrest

Ruggies-Brise, Colonel E. A.

Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Brass, Captain Sir William

Hurd, Sir Percy

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Broadbent, Colonel John

Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Salt, Edward W.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T

Ker, J. Campbell

Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

Kerr, Hamilton W.

Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

Burnett, John George

Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

Butler, Richard Austen

Kirkpatrick, William M.

Savery, Samuel Servington

Cadogan, Hon. Edward

Knight, Holford

Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

Knox, Sir Alfred

Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Caporn, Arthur Cecil

Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

Carver, Major William H.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

Law, Sir Alfred

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W)

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Smithers, Sir Waldron

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

Levy, Thomas

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

Liddall, Walter S.

Soper, Richard

Christie, James Archibald

Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

Clarry, Reginald George

Lindsay, Noel Ker

Spencer, Captain Richard A.

Clayton, Sir Christopher

Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Lloyd, Geoffrey

Stones, James

Colfox, Major William Philip

Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton

Conant, R. J. E.

Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

Cooke, Douglas

Mabane, William

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

Cooper, A. Duff

MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

Sutcliffe, Harold

Copeland, Ida

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)

Croom, Johnson, R. P.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Cross, R. H.

Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

Crossley, A. C.

McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

Culverwell, Cyril Tom

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian

Touche, Gordon Cosmo

Curry, A. C.

Magnay, Thomas

Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Maitland, Adam

Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Davison, Sir William Henry

Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

Drewe, Cedric

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Watt, Captain George Steven H.

Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

Weymouth, Viscount

Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

White, Henry Graham

Eady, George H.

Miffs Major J. D. (New Forest)

Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

Milne, Charles

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Elmley, Viscount

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Moreing, Adrian C.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Fleming, Edward Lascelies

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Womersley, Sir Walter

Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

Ford, Sir Patrick J.

Moss, Captain H. J.

Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

Fox, Sir Gifford

Munro, Patrick

Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Fremantle, Sir Francis

Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

Fuller, Captain A. G.

Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Ganzonl, Sir John

North, Edward T.

Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Nunn, William

George Penny.

Gledhill, Gilbert

O'Connor, Terence James

NOES.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Batey, Joseph

Cape, Thomas

Attlee, Clement Richard

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Banfield, John William

Buchanan, George

Cove, William G.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Hamilton Burgh Order Confirmation Bill,
Aberdeen Corporation Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.

BILLS REPORTED.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (CUMBERLAND AND LANCASTER) BILL,
  Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (GLOUCESTER AND WARWICK) BILL,
  Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HOLLAND AND KESTEVEN) BILL,
  Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HOLLAND AND LINDSEY) BILL,
  Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LEICESTER AND WARWICK) BILL,
  Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE ACT, 1934.
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [17 th December],
  "That the draft Unemployment Assistance (Determination of Need and Assessment of Needs) Regulations, 1934 dated the eleventh day of December, 1934, made by the Minister of Labour, under the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1934, a copy of which was presented to this House on the said eleventh day of December, be approved."—[Mr. Stanley.]
  Which Amendment was, in line 5, to leave out "be approved," and to add instead thereof:
  "will be inadequate to ensure the maintenance of unemployed persons and their dependants in health and physical efficiency."—[Mr. Greenwood.]
  Question again proposed, "That the word 'be' stand part of the Question."
  3.43 p.m.
  Mr. O'CONNOR: When the House parted with the Unemployment Insurance Bill this year I fear that I probably was not alone in having misgivings as to the magnitude of the task which the House had imposed on the board. It was a novel task, and one beset with almost insuperable difficulties. It was no less than that of erecting a national system, which should possess both uniformity and flexibility for meeting the needs of the able-bodied unemployed who were under Part II of the Insurance Act. We have now reached the stage at which we have to consider the first work of the board, and I join with the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) in saying, as he said, that the duty of preparing regulations has been discharged by the board with conspicuous success. A good deal of the criticism which has raged round the regulations in the last two or three days has been, I think, directed, impotently rather, at the Act which imposed these duties on the board than at the regulations themselves. It is manifest that the discussion has been necessarily somewhat circumscribed, and circumscribed by the decision that Parliament reached when it passed the Act.
  I shall have a word to say in a moment or two about the attitude adopted by the official Opposition towards these regulations,
  1166
  but let me first say how, for my own part, I reacted to them. It appeared to me that the board had not only discharged its duty with complete success, in the words of the right hon. Member for Wakefield—that we, at any rate, should have expected of the right hon. Gentleman who presides over the board, and whose reputation for humanity, discretion, tact and vision is so well known to every Member of this House—but that they had done more than that. These regulations mark a very real advance both in the method of treating a frightfully difficult problem, and in the generosity of that treatment itself, notably as regards children, as regards the element of rent and also the application of the means test, which I think anybody who fairly examines these regulations must conclude has been shorn of some of its worst features.
  The first thing which, as it appears to me, many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have overlooked is that these regulations are no law of the Medes and Persians. This is the first instalment; this is no more than a general framework; and, indeed, the Act which we recently passed, by Section 52, provides that it shall be the duty of the board to lay before the Minister regulations "from time to time." So that what we are discussing here is the skeleton, which I have not the smallest doubt will have to be modified and will have to be invested with flesh in accordance with administrative experience based upon the working of the scheme in the course of the next two or three months. It is necessarily somewhat experimental, and I think the hard cases to which attention has been called by many speakers opposite are cases upon which we cannot pronounce now and which must be reviewed in the light of further working. I therefore welcome very much indeed the promise of the Minister, which I hope will be implemented and supported by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary when he comes to reply, that when some experience has been gained we shall have placed in the Library of the House specific instances showing how the commissioners are exercising their discretion in individual cases and in individual circumstances.
  Nothing could have been more difficult than to attempt to obtain at one and the same time uniformity and flexibility. It

  1167
  is an almost impossible task. On the one hand the lack of uniformity, the disparity in the assistance given between one area and another, was, I think, universally condemned. On the other hand many of us felt that the system of local administration did afford a contact and an understanding of specific problems which might be lacking in the case of a nationally-administered system. I was delighted therefore when I looked through the regulations to find that they were plastered with opportunities for the use of that discretion which alone can make the administration of a somewhat bureaucratic scheme humane.
  A good deal of criticism was levelled at the fact that the procedure under which these regulations come before the House is unsatisfactory, that the House is unable to alter a line or a comma of the regulations. I very greatly regret that half an evening should have been devoted to a completely futile discussion over whether a letter in a certain word was a "t" or an n". I for one felt that it might very properly be said of right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite that they were so bankrupt of ideas upon which to formulate an attack upon these regulations that they had to take refuge in a technicality in order to escape that criticism.
  As regards the procedure, it seems to have been forgotten that the Act provides a better opportunity of discussing these regulations than was provided by right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite. They gave the House no opportunity of discussing the regulations made under the Anomalies Act. They did not even give an opportunity of discussing regulations made under another Act which is more analogous to this Bill. I refer to the Poor Law Act for 1930, for which the Opposition were responsible. There was an Act which covered a very large number of the people whom we are now to include in the operation of these regulations. A vast number of poor people were included, but nothing in that Act provides for discussion of the regulations that are to be made by the Minister; they are simply to be made by him and that is all.
  Criticism has gone behind the regulations themselves and has, as usual, mainly centered round that well-known topic, the means test. I have said before in this
  1168
  House, and I say again, that it is impossible to justify the administration of relief without a means test of some sort. I am convinced that what people have complained about is not the existence of the means test, but the method of its administration, and particularly the association of that test with the Poor Law authorities. I much prefer the first thoughts of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) when, in his unregenerate days, he frankly said that he was not prepared to allow public assistance to be given without an inquiry into means to his later, old-school-tie attitude which persuaded him to sacrifice his beliefs in the interests of the team spirit and of the doctrines of the party in which he so greatly believes.
  The discussion in this House on the regulations does not mirror the reaction of the country. The reaction of the country towards the regulations is far more favourable than has been made out by the official Opposition. I think that is so for a particular reason. The electoral freak of 1931 has been responsible for a good many things. It has perhaps made some of us on this side of the House insensitive to the movement of public opinion. We have been inclined to think that the large majority we possess is still reflected in the country as a whole, but I have never thought that that is true. I also do not think that the opinions of hon. Gentlemen opposite who were returned in 1931 mirror the opinions of the country as a whole. They represent, in the main, areas where the terrible canker of unemployment and distress has bitten deeper than in any other areas. They come to the House, therefore, with an experience which, happily, is not a true sample of the general experience of the country. They come from areas where there has been prolonged and devastating unemployment, and they naturally look on these regulations from the angle of those areas.
  For that reason, they have, I think, a somewhat faulty perspective upon these regulations, and they ought to put themselves more into touch with the feeling of the great urban districts and the great rural districts of the country where unemployment is only a proportion of the population, and where, side by side, are people living on comparatively good

  1169
  wages and people who have suffered the incidence of unemployment. If they would adopt that perspective, they would agree that the suggestion that a person who is in a household and is in enjoyment of enough to maintain himself or herself and to have a surplus should not contribute towards the means of the less fortunate members of the household is an affront to the workers themselves. The compactness, solidarity and loyalty of our family life is one of the characteristics of this country. We have only to bear in mind those who are employed in service or who are working in a town distant from their homes and to recollect the way in which they send home week after week their little remittances for the support and succour of their fathers and mothers, and of other relatives, to realise that that is a spontaneous thing which comes from the feeling of family solidarity. To deny its existence, and to say that no such responsibility is recognised among those who inhabit a home, is to misrepresent the outlook of the workers.
  In further exercise of that perspective, let them look in a particular working district of a town which has not witnessed quite as much the horrors of unemployment as some of those hon. Gentlemen have in their own areas, for example, a, city like my own, and consider what would be the feeling of a man earning say 45s. to 50s. a week living next door to a family into whose house from £6 to £8 a week was coming, and where one of whose members was out of work. Is it not perfectly clear that if you were to allow the level of relief to rise above the normal level of wages in the district, you would be introducing a discordant element of friction between those two households? A man in receipt of 45s. a week having next door to him people who in the aggregate were better off than himself would rightly have a feeling of resentment at the imposition of a scheme which burdened him with the obligation of finding the means of keeping an unemployed member of the family next door. His tobacco, his beer, his omnibus fares, and almost everything that consumed would go to provide the fund to meet the relief bill, while next door to him there would be a family which, in the aggregate, was well able but not unduly anxious to discharge its responsibility to one of its stricken members.
  1170
  I am very glad that the means test has been retained, and that it has been made humane and been deprived of much of the sting that it possessed under the administration of the local authorities.
  I am also glad that a brilliant and successful attempt has at last been made to separate as a distinct element the provision of shelter. Until rent is sorted out from the family budget, it is impossible to say what is the revenue for the maintenance of a man and his wife and children. This provision, introduced into the regulations with imagination by the Chairman, is one which, will have far-reaching effects upon the social policy which we shall devise in future years in this House. I have nothing to say in regard to the depressed areas, because I am not familiar with the problems of those areas in the detail that would qualify me to express an opinion. Judging from the speeches which I have heard and read from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, it may very well be that in areas where the quantum of savings has been diminished, where unemployment has been chronic for a considerable period, and where therefore the balancing element of small savings or of an additional wage earner in the household does not come in to assist the family budget, these regulations will need to be revised.
  I feel some sympathy, therefore, with the request made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield that at the end of a period, say three months, a report should be made upon the working of these regulations with a view to seeing whether in these specific areas of the country they are operating with humanity, as I am satisfied they will operate, taking the country as a whole; but it must be borne in mind that the only way in which you can really secure any parallel of alleviation of distress as between the depressed areas and the other areas of the country is to get the depressed areas back to work. There is no substitute for that. Without offence, it is possible to conceive that you might make their position even worse by the indiscriminate application of relief, and that certainly would not assist the problem. In one or two ways it would make it more difficult, because all the reports from the commissioners on this subject show that one of the difficulties which beset industries

  1171
  in these areas is that the people are riveted to the spot by the fact that there is, at any rate, a social service upon which they can fall back, and which prevents them from reaching the uttermost bitterness of misery which under any other system they would have reached.
  For these reasons, I feel that these regulations command, and ought to command, the support of the House, as they certainly command the support of public opinion outside the House. The organ of the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Gentlemen opposite, representing as it does a very much larger area of opinion than they themselves do, has accorded this scheme a very real and genuine welcome. It was not confined to the "Daily Herald," because looking through my local newspaper, which is an organ of the Starmer Press, not very favourable to the Government as a rule, one of the syndicated Liberal journals of the Starmer Press, I read:
  "The scheme is well entitled to a reasonable administrative trial. Our National Government has implemented nothing more satisfactory to the nation's social conscience than this children's starting point."
  This has, of course, been made possible by the policy of the Government which has provided the funds, which has buttressed the unemployment insurance position in such a way that this starting point could be made upon what is nothing less than a real social revolution. I look upon it as an edifice on which we can build, and an edifice which nobody opposite, I venture to think, will attempt to tear down when their time of responsibility comes, if it ever does come. I look upon it as an edifice of real, national, mutual succour and support for those for whom we have done little enough at a time when they deserve all the help we can give them.
  4.4 p.m.
  Mr. PALING: The Government have been suffering from a regular spate of criticism from their own supporters of most of the Bills brought before this House in recent months, and I think the hon. and learned Member who has just spoken has fulfilled the role of critic, on more than one occasion. That being so, I am sure the Government will be very well satisfied to know that on this occasion they have the hon. and learned Member's support. He said that these
  1172
  regulations are no law of the Medes and the Persians—they are an instalment. We hope so, but we are not so sure about it. It is quite true that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) asked that there should be a report in a short time to give us an opportunity of seeing what is being done, but I do not know that it has been promised. We hope that it will be granted, but we are very much afraid about it, because this is a bureaucratic machine. It is, I think, brought forward for the purpose of getting a kind of machinery that can keep away criticism that can be levelled against such things in the House of Commons and by the elected representatives on the local authorities. I think it has been made bureaucratic so that that kind of criticism could have no effect.
  The hon. and learned Member said that there were no opportunities for discussing the regulations on the Anomalies Bill. I do not remember whether that was the case, but I do remember that we could get nothing through this House unless we got the support of some of our political enemies, either Liberals or Tories, and we were always concerned in between them about getting anything done. If the hon. and learned Member finds any satisfaction in the fact that we did not give three days' discussion on those regulations, I think he is entitled to it. Then the hon. and learned Member says that the present proposal has been well received. I dare say he goes into places where I do not, and among people whom I do not mix among. It may be that in some of those places it has been well received. I dare say among wealthy supporters of the Tory party it is thought that because a child gets a shilling or two more a week, it is the end of all things, and we have reached Paradise. There are, however, other people in my class who see differently, and who are full of fear about this. The hon. and learned Member thinks that because, as he says, it has been well received, it is going to be a good thing for them at the Election. I will content myself with saying that if the hon. and learned Member or any other of his colleagues on those benches think that these regulations at the next Election are going to provide them with a return ticket for this House, they will be very much mistaken.

  1173
  During the discussion of the Bill, we were very much afraid, in regard to the second part of it in particular, that the figures to be laid down by the Unemployment Assistance Board would be very much on the same basis as the figures for standard benefit, and possibly less, and we voiced those fears on more than one occasion. If my memory serves me aright, we were told by the Parliamentary Secretary and the then Minister, that there was really no ground, for these fears, that this was an entirely new departure, and that the fact that certain benefits were paid under the other part of the Measure did not necessarily mean that the same benefits should be paid under this part, either more or less, but the assurance which they tried to give, or the atmosphere which they tried to create, was that they hoped that under this board the amount of assistance to be given might be greater and much more beneficial than under standard benefit. I suppose that, as far as children's allowances are concerned, particularly the first two or three children, they can claim that that is so. I think that that is practically, or mainly, the only claim except with regard to rent. But there are lots of other things where we are afraid that men and women and boys and girls are going to suffer. "We admit that," says the Minister, "but we think in the aggregate there is going to be more money paid out to these people than has been paid out in circumstances as they are now, and that the men and women will benefit." That remains for the future to show, but we view the working of this machinery with some element of alarm.
  I want to deal, first, with the question of children. This question of children's allowances has been discussed for months upon months by all sorts of people and all kinds of scales have been drawn up. The British Medical Association considered that to preserve health the food basis was round about 3,500 calories and about 60 grammes of protein. That was promptly denied by the Ministry of Health, who contended that 3,000 calories and from 40 to 50 grammes of protein were sufficient to keep life in an adult. There was discussion about that, and what always struck us was the fact that the Ministry of Health, of all people concerned, should be talking about what was the least amount necessary to keep life in men and women—not how much we could give
  1174
  them out of the vast wealth of the world and all the foodstuffs now in such superabundance; not how best we could distribute these things among this most necessary part of the population, but how, in spite of all this, we could use our scientific knowledge to find out the very minimum wage upon which subsistence could be based. It struck us as being ironical, and the Ministry cannot escape its responsibility in the matter.
  Sir FRANCIS FREMANTLE: Is the hon. Member aware that those two committees met, and are not now in conflict?
  Mr. PALING: I will tell of something else that the Ministry has done, but we will get to that in good time. There was another scale, and the people who drafted it went down to a very low level. There was a meeting of the Central Council for Health Education at which Professor J. A. Nixon spoke. It was quoted in the "Morning Post."
  Viscountess ASTOR: Oh!
  Mr. PALING: Will the hon. Lady accept that as an authority for her party?
  Viscountess ASTOR: Not my section.
  Mr. PALING: A large section accepts the "Morning Post" as the be-all and end-all. This is what Professor Nixon said:
  "The minimum amount of food which really just spells under-nourishment can be brought up to be adequate by taking a small amount of water with the meal. You may make a little food go a long way by drinking small quantities of water during the meal."
  Surely if the Government are interested in cutting down these scales, they might send out information of this description to the man who has been getting 26s., and who in future is to get 24s.
  We have been told by the Minister that he has gone into all sorts of quarters to obtain information to enable him to lay down these scales and regulations. We have not, however, been told to what quarters he went and what policy he is following. I understand that the other House is in a better position than we are. I understand that a Committee of the other House got the lawyer of the Ministry of Labour to come clown and tell them all about these matters. I think that we might have been told also. We

  1175
  have got the scale and the memorandum. The senior Member for Dundee (Mr. Dingle Foot) complained that the memorandum did not tell us much in addition to the scale, and I think he was right. We might have been told more about that aspect of the matter. After the British Medical Association's scale had been laid down, the Ministry of Health appointed a committee, to inquire into the question of nutrition, and, following a Question which I put in the House, I have received a copy of its report. It is entitled:

MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
  ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUTRITION.

    REPORT TO THE MINISTER OF HEALTH
    ON
    DIETS IN POOR LAW CHILDREN'S HOMES.
    The committee consists of seven members, and I do not think anyone will deny that they are people well qualified to deal with the subject. Their names are as follows:
    Professor Major Greenwood, D.Sc, F.R.C.P., F.R.S. (Chairman.)
    G. F. Buchan, Esq., M.D., M.R.C.P.
    Professor E. P. Cathcart, C.B.E., M.D., D.Sc., F.R.S.
    Sir Frederick Gowland Hopkins, D.Sc., LL.D., F.R.C.P., P.R.S.
    Miss Jessie Lindsay.
    Professor E Mellanby, M.D., F.R.C.P., F.R.S.
    Professor V. H. Mottram, M.A.
    I have read their report with great care, and I should like to know whether the Ministry of Labour, in laying down the scales in these regulations, took into account the scales recommended by the Committee. Among other things the Committee point out that it is already provided, under the Public Assistance Order, 1930, that:
    "The Poor Law Authorities shall prescribe for children maintained in Children's Homes separate dietary tables for the different classes, or the maximum quantity of specified articles of food which may be issued in each week in respect of each child."
    Then follows a very important statement:
    "Providing, nevertheless, that each child should be fed according to appetite."
    There has been a disposition lately for the Government, in Bills submitted to this House, to say: "In future we are not going to have a scale which goes up and down; we are going to give a fixed amount, and you can do as you like with
    1176
    it. If you spend more, you will have to find it yourself; if you do not, well and good." They are following this principle as regards the children of the unemployed. If the Government, instead of laying down a certain amount of money and telling people they must do the best they can with it, had adopted the phrase which I have just read:
    "Providing, nevertheless, that each child should be fed according to appetite,"
    we should not have had so much criticism to offer. I think that that was a very good start on the part of the Committee. Again, they say:
    "In the main the children"—
    that is to say, those in the homes which they visited—
    "appeared bright and cheerful, with a good colour, and, although some of the visits took place in wintry weather chilblains and colds were not unduly prevalent. We do not doubt that in general the children were better fed than they would have been in ordinary homes of children of a like class."
    That is not because, in the main, the parents of children in working-class homes do not know how to feed their children. They may not always do as well as they might do, but in the circumstances they do very well indeed. The fact observed by the Committee is due, in the main, to there being more money at hand to feed these children, and, if the same principle were applied to the children of unemployed people, there would be approximately the same result. In their recommendations the Committee say that:
    "(a) A pint of milk per day per head should be allowed"—
    that is not a bad start—
    "and special care should be taken to secure that the full amount is, in fact, received by each child under 16. A note to this effect should appear on all diet sheets.
    (b) All diet sheets should also contain a note to the following effect: 'It is most important that an ample supply of vegetables should be included in the diet daily…. As regards raw fruits, two apples or two oranges, preferably the latter, should be supplied weekly.'"
    I wonder how many apples or oranges will be allowed for in the scales that are now to be laid down? I wonder how many of the children affected by these scales will get their pint of milk per day, including the free milk that they are supposed to get in the schools? I think the Minister himself said that the British

    1177
    Medical Association's scale was too high now, because it took into account a certain quantity of milk which the children are now getting at school.
    One would imagine, from what is now going on, that there was a shortage of these things, including milk, which is the most necessary thing that there is for children; but there are abounding quantities of them at the present time—more, perhaps, than there has ever been in this country. Only yesterday, hon. Members who were in the House will have heard from supporters of the Government four questions relating to the milk business in Scotland, which suggested that there is such a huge surplus that it cannot be got rid of, and that the whole milk scheme is likely to burst up as a result; while only a month or two ago a question was asked as to what had been paid to account for the relations between the Milk Board of England and that of Scotland, and the reply was given that some hundreds of thousands of pounds had been spent by the English Distribution Board and given to the Scottish Distribution Board in order that Scottish milk should be kept out of England, the reason being, I suppose, that England had more milk than it could distribute. If you accept the pint of milk per head per day recommended in this latest scheme of the Ministry of Health, I think that, at any rate for a good while, you would overcome the difficulties of the surplus, and you would be giving to every child that which it needs in order to grow into a healthy human being. Is it beyond the capacity or imagination of the Ministry of Labour or of Members of the Government to find a solution of this problem in both its aspects—that of the child suffering physically because of the want of milk, and that of the farmers and producers who are suffering because they cannot get rid of the huge surplus which they have on their hands? I should like to know if the Government when arranging their scales had regard to the regulations in this report. The last recommendation of the committee says:
    "In a home containing about 200 children we estimate that the weekly cost, allowing one pint of milk per child daily, would be about 4s. 6·d. per head if all provisions were bought at contract prices."
    I think I am right in suggesting that by buying at contract prices a saving of something like 20 per cent. might be
    1178
    effected. If it be anywhere round about that figure, the amount that the ordinary father and mother would have to pay retail for the same diet, instead of being 4s. 6½d. per head, would probably be nearer 5s. 6d.
    What have the Ministry done in this respect? They have laid down a scale of 4s. 6d. downwards, and if the number in the family is more than five, 1s. is deducted. I do not know whether I am quite correct in this, but my impression is that, if the family consists of the father, the mother and four children, the figure for the fourth child would be subject to a deduction of 1s. because it makes six in the family, and, therefore, the provision for that child would be only 2s. instead of 3s. I find that, if you reckon up these figures for a family with six children, the children will get about 19s. for the lot, and, dividing that by six, it comes to about 3s. 2d. per head. In a home with 200 children, the lowest cost of supplying the diet necessary fox-healthy life is 4s. 6½d. per head at contract prices, and it would probably be 5s. 6d. at the retail prices which parents would have to pay. If that be so, how can anyone expect that working-class parents, even with the extra money that is going to be paid in respect of the children, will be able to provide their children with sufficient food for a decent and healthy life?
    Mr. PIKE: The hon. Member says that the amount received for six children will be 19s. Would it not be fairer to take the ages of the children before making such a statement?
    Mr. PALING: I am assuming that the ages would be two, four, six, eight, ten and twelve, and I was careful to say that after the fourth child the amount received would be 2s. each instead of 3s., since in that case 1s. is taken off. But even if the other shilling were given, it would only make a difference of a copper or two, and the provision does not compare with what is laid down in the report of the Ministry of Health's own committee. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour whether he took into account the meals suggested by that committee. Will the House listen to this? I imagine that, if the children of any unemployed people had put before them a dietary like this, the mouths would literally water. The committee suggest,

    1179
    not only that sufficient food should be provided, but that there should be variety, and they lay great stress on variety. I will read their suggested menu for 200 children for one day:
    "Breakfast.—Porridge (with milk and sugar), cocoa (with milk, water and sugar), baked fish roes, bread and margarine."
    They say in another place that the margarine should be of a very superior quality, equivalent to summer butter.
    "Dinner.—Steamed steak (including carrots, turnips, onions, haricots), potatoes, steamed treacle pudding, custard sauce (milk).
    Tea.—Tea (with milk and sugar), bread and margarine, buns, watercress."
    And for supper of all things:
    "Pomegranates."
    Viscountess ASTOR: What a ridiculous thing you are quoting.
    Mr. PALING: They suggest fruit for the supper of these children all the week. When they were making these regulations, did they have any regard to this aspect of the case and to the last issue by the Ministry of Health on the question of nutrition?
    I want to deal with the question of the reduction from 26s. to 24s. for a married couple. The Prime Minister, when he was tackled recently as to whether the amount of standard benefit was enough to maintain life decently, said that it was never intended that it should fulfil that obligation, the implication being that it was not sufficient to maintain life decently and properly. But that is not the opinion of the Minister of Labour and of the Government Bench generally. They are of opinion that 24s. is enough, assuming that the standard rent is 7s. 6d. I think the Minister himself made this excuse. He said, "We have been criticised because we have not given the British Medical Association scales to children, but we cannot be criticised on this account because the British Medical Association does not recommend any more than we have put down." I wonder if the Government are prepared to argue that 24s. is enough for a man and wife who have to pay rent and buy food to keep themselves in decent physical condition to allow them to tackle a job whenever a job is offered.
    1180
    I have a newspaper cutting here in which a lady visiting some of these depressed areas talks about the difficulty not only of finding food but of finding clothing, and underclothing in particular. Is it possible for a man and wife out of 24s. to pay rent and meet all the calls that come upon them and provide decent clothing and one of the things that they lack most because it cannot be seen—decent underclothing. I saw a picture in a newspaper of the Personal Service League packing up clothing to send to the depressed areas. I remember in 1926, when we had our dispute and were out for such a long time, our people got short of clothing and an appeal went out to charity. Clothing came in bundles, but with a relatively limited number like that and in a relatively short time the result of that appeal was entirely inadequate, and I do not think the Minister or the Under-Secretary would suggest for a moment that this question of clothing could be met from charitable funds. Miss Rosita Forbes, the well-known explorer, is making a tour of the industrial districts. At Gateshead she met a youth, who asked, "What can we do when there is just one street after another?" He told her that there was a club with a course of physical training and most of them wanted to keep fit, but it was a question of underclothing. Miss Forbes gathered that the youths of Gateshead did not care to reveal the absence of anything under their shabby clothes by stripping in the gymnasium. The "Times" yesterday said in its leader:
    "The chronically unemployed are being maintained as with a pension but are being overtaken, nevertheless, by physical and spiritual decay."
    Even if you maintain that continued idleness tends to deteriorate men, I maintain that starvation and the anxiety of men and women, particularly where there is a family, as to how they can keep their children fit has a bigger deteriorating effect, and, if you cannot find them work and prevent deterioration in that way, at least you can do what you do for the upper classes who are idle and provide them with the means to keep themselves in a state of physical efficiency. I have here a circular from the Industrial Christian Fellowship. They say:
    "The Fellowship is in frequent touch with clergy in many parts of the country, who have constant opportunities of observing

    1181
    over long periods of time exactly how unemployed families live and to what extent they suffer distress. The testimony of such clergy is definite. Physical distress is frequently to be observed among the families of the unemployed who depend upon unemployment benefit, transitional payment or public assistance."
    I wonder if the Minister is aware that we have in the mining districts what is known as a subsistence wage. This was paid to miners because it was thought that their wages were so low, even when working full time, that there was not sufficient to buy food in quality or quantity to maintain the physical efficiency necessary for work in the pit. I went to the dictionary to-day and I find that "subsist" means to continue to exist, to remain in being, and most people will agree that that is the general interpretation of the word. We have these scales to enable the miners to exist and to continue in being. In order to do it, we had to increase their wages from 3d. to a 1s. per day, but I can assure the Under-Secretary that the wages even before the subsistence allowance was put on were above the 24s. that he is going to give. Even the increase of 24s. which he allows was not thought sufficient by the people in the mining areas, and by the employers themselves, to keep men in physical efficiency. I ask the hon. Gentleman, in face of all these things, which can be gathered all over the country in a hundred different ways, is it not time to decide to take these regulations back and to deal in a more generous manner with this most necessary of all the classes in the country.
    I now come to the question of rent. The Minister has been asked on a number of occasions what is going to be done in highly-rented places, and in London in particular. He gave some indication that this was being taken into consideration. I do not know whether he meant that it would take days or weeks, but I should like to ask whether he has any answer to give to the questions that have been asked him on this matter. The right hon. Gentleman laid down a policy which appeared to me rather curious, coming from a Tory Minister. He said:
    "It is wrong that there should be no discriminating allowance for rent at all, and it is equally dangerous that there should be an automatic and inevitable payment of the exact rent. The knowledge that the State was standing behind the tenancy of such large numbers with an automatic increase of rent whatever it may be would
    1182
    be a direct incentive to profiteering by the landlord and would raise considerable dangers of collusion between landlord and tenant."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December, 1934; col. 844, Vol. 296.]
    I have said some hard things about landlords in the past, and shall probably say a few more in the future, but I do not know that I have ever said anything that suggests more than this statement of the Minister. We are telling the unemployed man: "We recognise the difficulty of your increased rent, but it would not do for us to give it to you, because the probability is that the landlord would take it and, in order to prevent you being robbed by the greedy landlord, we are going to rob you first." In the West Riding a larger amount is given in rent than anything that can accrue under these regulations, and I have never heard any complaint about it. The Public Assistance Committee only give a man and wife 20s., but they give up to a maximum of 9s. in rent, so that they do not think the wicked landlord will purloin the extra amount from the unemployed man. What is more, they are more generous to the unemployed man or woman under the Poor Law to the extent of 4s. 6d. than the right hon. Gentleman.
    The regulations say that the total amount payable to an applicant must not exceed his normal earnings, were he employed. I agree that there is a qualification Clause which says that the commissioners shall have discretion, but it is laid down definitely that they must not exceed the normal earnings when employed. This is the old Tory bogy that, if you give a man more money for being idle than for working, you will utterly demoralise him.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Of course.
    Mr. PALING: Then there must be a lot of demoralised people in the Noble Lady's class. I have never seen a man demoralised by being given more money than he could earn by working, but, if you want to settle this question, you will not settle it by starving people. The only way you can settle it is by offering them jobs, and you cannot do that. When the capitalist system has solved the question of offering jobs, it will solve the other question too. I remember a discussion in the House when I was portraying the woes of the miners and their low

    1183
    wages and poverty. Hon. Members on that side of the House got up and said, "They get more than the agricultural workers." That embodies the policy of the Tory party. That is the way they look at it. While there is somebody getting less the Tory party hold that they have no case about which to quarrel or grouse. I do not think that that is good policy. I heard the Postmaster-General say, in answer to a question in this House about a fortnight ago, that there were in his Department over 800 adult persons working for wages of round about 35s. a week. If one of those employés was the father or five or six children and he became unemployed and had to seek public assistance, he would receive, if he were given the money to which he was entitled, 41s. or 42s. In that case the man and his family would be denied 6s. or 7s. because the public assistance allowance would be that much in excess of his former wages. The fact that a man has been in a low-paid industry and has been receiving low wages means that he has had a pretty rotten and miserable time and has never been able to keep himself decently, and it is appalling that, because he has always been condemned to a low wage level, you should still maintain that it is good policy, when he has to go to the public assistance authorities or to the Unemployment Assistance Board, that he should continue on that low level. Is that the Tory doctrine and the attitude of hon. Members opposite in drawing up these regulations? It is absolutely unfair. It is brutal and not worthy of Members even on the Front Bench opposite. It is much worse than anything we expected of them.
    This is an entirely new departure, and we on these benches desire that the Government and their supporters should view it in a broad and generous manner and display originality, and, if you like, magnanimity. They think that they have ideas and imagination, and yet the only thing they have done is to make a slight increase in respect of the first, second and third child, and a slight increase in repect of rent. In all other cases there is to be a serious reduction. How can hon. Members justify their attitude at this time of the day with the world teeming with wealth and with hundreds of millions of pounds lying idle and with
    1184
    milk and potatoes in such abundance. I read to-day that there is such a surplus supply of potatoes that an effort is to be made to see whether they cannot be sold cheaply in the distressed areas. There is a superabundance of coal, cotton, boots and everything the unemployed want, and all that the Government can do is to present us with this wretched Bill. The two young men who profess to be among the "Y.M.C.A." men on those benches, each of whom has criticised us for lack of vision and imagination, have been presented with an unparalleled opportunity to do things and with the Government behind them, the most that they can do is to present us with this set of wretched regulations.
    4.49 p.m.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: My hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (Mr. Paling) will perhaps acquit me of intentional discourtesy if I do not attempt to follow him into the detailed examination of those aspects of the regulations which he has placed before the House with such force and sincerity. On whatever matters we may be at variance in connection with these regulations, we shall all be agreed that the regulations which are now before us are the most important piece of domestic legislation which this Parliament has passed. As the Debate over the last two days has developed, I have found myself confirmed in the belief to which I had come, and it has not sensibly been altered by the able speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Central Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor), which was couched in terms of qualified optimism. That belief is that the Unemployment Assistance Board and the regulations which emanate from it are not a suitable instrument for dealing with the intimate needs and conditions of life of the people of this country. That is the belief which I formed during our previous Debates, and which I still hold.
    It is a lamentable thing that Parliament should have divested itself of, and voted away, or, if I may adopt the jargon of these days, adopted a policy of abdication or surrender of its rights of control and free and unfettered criticism over this matter concerning its traditional responsibility for the condition of the people. That is an important aspect of this matter of which we cannot lose

    1185
    sight. I oppose the board because it takes away the direct control of Parliament over its affairs and because Parliament should not divest itself of its direct responsibility for the national task of looking after the able-bodied unemployed. We preferred, and still prefer the responsibility of the Ministry of Labur. It is well within the capacity of the Ministry of Labour to carry out this task. The policy of setting up a great machine and duplicating the offices of the Ministry of Labour in most towns of the country is a defeatist policy. It only becomes intelligible if one assumes that we are to be faced with a large mass of unemployed able-bodied people indefinitely. That is a policy and a view of the future which I do not think that either this House or the country is willing to accept.
    Mr. PIKE: On a point of Order. Is it in order for the hon. Member to criticise an Act to which this House has already given consent for the purpose of establishing an argument as to why these regulations should not be accepted by the House?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think that there is anything out of order in what the hon. Member has said.
    Mr. WHITE: It is very difficult to dissociate these regulations, which come from the Act, from the provisions of the Act itself, and my remarks were certainly devoted to criticising the regulations which I find myself at the moment unable to do without making some reference to the Act. It is a monstrous thing that Parliament should be asked to pass regulations dealing with most intimate matters of control of the daily lives of the people in which they cannot alter even one letter. I associate myself entirely with what the hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham said about the task of the Unemployment Assistance Board. Within the limits prescribed by the Act, they did their best with a very difficult task. I do not think that there is any question with regard to that. Further—and this is what we would expect from a board presided over by Sir Henry Betterton whom we know so well in this House—I think that the regulations bear evidence, having regard again to the narrow limits prescribed, of a desire to give effect to the wishes which were pronounced in all quarters of the House during our discussions last year.
    1186
    Taking the whole of these regulations over the country, I do not think that it can be denied that they are an improvement on present practice. If they mean what they say, and if the financial forecasts set out in the Financial Memorandum are accurate, then £3,000,000 more is to be distributed, and that, in effect, must mean better conditions. I do not ignore the cases of special hardship to individuals or districts which have been laid before the House during the last two days, but, even if it be the case, and if things mean what they say, there must be some improvement in the conditions, if not of all people, of a considerable number.
    I do not propose to say anything more about the children's allowances, of which we have heard so much during the past two days, except to say that it is a step in the right direction. They do not go far enough, especially in the case of the larger families, but it is a beginning, and it is a step in the right direction. The adjustment of rent is, again, an important improvement on the existing practice. The desire to establish uniformity as between district and district is also undoubtedly a step in the right direction, but one would regret and deplore that this should be brought about, as it must be brought about by reductions in respect of allowances in some districts which will be greater, as has been stated—and no one has contradicted it—than the original cuts made at the time of the emergency regulations in 1931. Uniformity is a desirable thing. We know over past years what distress and annoyance has been caused by different conditions prevailing in different parts of the country, and one may ask whether uniformity is not being bought at too great a price. The switching over of £5,000,000 from the rates to the national Exchequer is a move in the right direction, and will do something to reduce the incidence of a charge which was very unfairly laid. Even if these regulations were not open to criticism and did not enshrine the items and features of the means test which we sought to adjust or to remove last summer and failed, even if their provisions were reasonable in every respect, and if, for example, the conditions in the means test with regard to the application to investments and savings and the like were fair and reasonable, there is still another reason why

    1187
    we on this bench could not accept them unconditionally and without an undertaking that they should be reconsidered and brought back to this House again at an early date.
    Everyone who has followed the development of unemployment insurance in this country over the last 10 years must be aware that Bills which have been debated with care and at length in this House, when they have reached the Statute Book and have passed into the sphere of practice, have very frequently, in translation into practice led to results which Parliament had never foreseen or intended. I cite as an example of that, the practice developed under the Anomalies Act with regard to seasonal workers, and a more serious example still was the notorious development of the not-genuinely-seeking-work clause. Such developments are inevitable in the application of regulations of this kind.
    These regulations were described in the Memorandum as being elaborate. They certainly are. Member after Member has risen in his place and asked for an explanation of certain items to see whether the ideas which he himself had formed are accurate. When one contemplates what is likely to take place when this scheme comes into force, one must realise that there will be an enormous number of difficulties and administrative anomalies arising. For example, who is to define what is a lodger? There will be an immense number of cases of eligibility. Who will say whether a man is able-bodied? The case will be rendered more difficult because we have not here any co-ordinating authority as we have under the Unemployment Insurance Act. It is clear that in regard to administrative details alone there must be many matters which will turn out in practice very far from being what we consider the intention of Parliament.
    Again, there will be the repercussion on the local authorities and the local services. There will be conflict between the local authorities and the public assistance committees over the bodies of many men in doubtful cases. There will be the effect of these proposals upon the unemployment scheme itself. I can picture what will happen in my own constituency. In cases of married men with families, with the exception of a married man with one child only, all applicants
    1188
    corresponding to conditions under the Unemployment Assistance Board will have a larger amount than those on unemployment benefit, rising in the case of a man who has five children to a difference of 6s. 9d. a week. I do not wish the House to think that I am complaining of this; I am not. I am only pointing out the extraordinary confusion which is likely to arise in the local administration of these proposals.
    On the other hand, when we come to the operations of the public assistance committee—again I will go to my own constituency for an example—the only people who will derive a larger sum by way of allowance under normal conditions from the Unemployment Assistance Board will be the married couples with children. When we come to the single adults who are living as members of a household or on their own, they will be subject to considerable decreases. All these anomalies will develop as time goes on, and for all these reasons, even if these proposals were above criticism in other respects, we on these benches should be unable to accept them without the assurance asked for by the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) and by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Central Nottingham that there should be a review by or a submission of these regulations to the House at no distant date, in view of the experience which will have been derived.
    There have been many strange and unforeseen events which have happened as a result of the practice of unemployment insurance, but when I come to the application of the overriding condition in this case, I think it is Regulation 5 in regard to wages, the possibilities almost stagger one's imagination. When we apply that regulation to the case of shipyard workers, the causes of confusion seem to be almost unlimited. I can give an actual case. Take two labourers working in the same shipyard, one employed on repair work at 48s. gross per week, and the other receiving 41s. gross. How is the regulation to be applied to these men? It must be remembered that these jobs are interchangeable and that when the yard becomes a little slack a man may switch over into the new work from the old. There is constant oscillation going on between the different forms of occupation.

    1189
    It will be a matter of urgent necessity to bring these regulations back to the House again for further consideration, or in the form of new regulations, in the light of experience. We have possibly abandoned in these proposals Poor Law principles to some extent and we have abandoned to some extent Poor Law technique. We have made a step on to the plane of maintenance rather than the plane of subsistence, and having done that, it is unfortunate that the Unemployment Assistance Board have not carried the step to its logical conclusion, especially with regard to the case of the families.
    Mr. ANEURIN BEVAN: I am sure that the hon. Member would not wish to misrepresent the position. Will he say in what respect these regulations have abandoned the Poor Law principle?
    Mr. WHITE: My hon. Friend will have noticed that I did not make an unqualified statement. I said that we have possibly abandoned in these regulations a good deal of the Poor Law principle. I need not go over the various items to prove that statement. I do not put it higher than that. What I said was that having come away to some extent from Poor Law principles and Poor Law technique it is regrettable that the board have not carried the step to its logical conclusion in regard to the larger families. If we are to pass away from the policy of subsistence and to enter upon the plane of maintenance, it places much greater responsibility upon the board and also upon the Government to adopt a more active policy of stimulating work. It is clear that the policy of tariffs plus economy, plus an attitude of impeccable financial rectitude is recognised as being inadequate to meet the situation.
    I should like to refer to a point raised by my hon. and learned Friend opposite in regard to the technique of this business. He went so far as to say that there would be a large number of other regulations that would have to be brought before the House in due course. I hope that will be the case, because while these regulations are perhaps the most important part of the functions of the board, it is clear that they are only a fraction of the duties which must be covered by regulations and rules. I should like to know definitely whether it
    1190
    is a fact that the Government do intend to carry out the rest of the policy by means of regulations to be brought before the House. If the policy is to be carried out, as it may be carried out, by a policy of secret instructions to the officials, I think the situation is likely to become difficult and serious. I do not defend these regulations nor have I any liking for this particular machinery but while it is in force I am anxious that it should work smoothly and for the benefit of those brought within its scope. That is a matter on which we are all agreed, whether we oppose or support the regulations. If the policy of bringing all these regulations and rules to the House is not carried out there will inevitably arise a feeling of widespread misunderstanding and complaint. We know from experience that if there are secret regulations or instructions and part of them is circulated by leakage, there is misunderstanding, misconstruction, suspicion and general dissatisfaction.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: If the hon. Member will look at Section 52 of the principal Act he will find that the board have the duty imposed upon them of proceeding by regulations and of bringing those regulations before the Minister from time to time.
    Mr. WHITE: I had Section 52 very much in my mind. If the Parliamentary Secretary will deal with this point when he replies, I have no doubt that he will be able to satisfy any uncertainties or anxieties which may be in the minds of hon. Members on this point. Even consideration of the type that we have been able to give to the regulations on this occasion will be better than none. No one can foresee what the outcome of these regulations will be. No one can say what will be the effect on the medical services and the remaining services of the local authorities. The question must arise in the minds of anybody who considers these matters whether they are in fact an instalment of a general policy of centralisation and whether the logical outcome, perhaps the inevitable outcome, will be that the Government will have to go a stage further and centralise the medical services as a whole.
    The processes of social legislation which we have carried out in this House during the past 25 or 30 years have produced in

    1191
    this country the best social services in the world, but that should not make us complacent. We must realise that these services have not been brought about always as the result of carefully prepared plans. Only too often they have been forced upon Parliament by a sudden economic emergency or a sudden social stress, or something of that kind, and the result is that the whole field of social services—I cannot develop this, point in detail as it would be out of order—is littered with anomalies and in some cases with conflicting tendencies. In the institution of the Unemployment Assistance Board we have one of these disturbing factors, and the Government could do no better service to the country than by setting on foot some impartial, well-qualified body to investigate the field of operations of future policy in regard to all these different types of help which we give to those who are in need. I view some of the tendencies that are being set up in various directions with very grave misgiving.
    I should like to ask one question, and that is in regard to the position of men who have been in receipt of Poor Law relief by way of loan. Under this new scheme they come under the Unemployment Assistance Board. What becomes of the liability for the loan? Will the man who is taken over by the board contract out of the liability for the loan? Will he be treated as a special case and be given an extra 5s. per week so that he may discharge his liability to the local public assistance committee, or will he by simply being taken over by the board avoid all further liability for that transaction, or does he become a client of the Unemployment Assistance Board for a year and then if he succeeds in getting work be liberated from the Unemployment Assistance Board for work where he will be obliged to discharge his liabilities to the public assistance committee? That is a matter which has been exercising the minds of some of us and we should like to have it cleared up.
    I should like to have some information with regard to investments which bring in no yield. At the present time many small savings are in the form of war savings certificates, and I should like to know whether they are to be taken into account or to be disregarded. Is the owner expected to cash them and take
    1192
    into account the amount of the proceeds? I have tried to give some of the reasons why we do not like this procedure. I can only protest once more that important proposals are being brought forward, touching the lives and the well-being of great masses of the people, without Parliament having any opportunity of amending them.
    5.16 p.m.
    Mr. LOVAT-FRASER: I am sorry to say that on the question now before the House I am somewhat at variance with some of my hon. Friends. I confess that I am not happy about the figures set out in the regulations. It is the duty of the Government to see that the unemployed and their families shall be free from malnutrition, that they shall have sufficient to provide the minimum needs of a man, his wife and family. One of our great difficulties in discussing this matter is the want of a proper scale of the cost of living. We have no such scale. Various scales have been put forward by different parties. There is the scale of the Advisory Committee on Nutrition of the Ministry of Health, which it is generally agreed is quite unsatisfactory. There was the scale drawn up by the Week-end Review of which Professor Bowley was Chairman, and a scale produced by the Economic Research Department of the Manchester University. There is also the report of the Sheffield Social Survey Committee. All these scales are at variance one with the other.
    The most important of the scales is perhaps that of the Committee of the British Medical Association, which has been relied upon more than any other by the Government in the production of their own scales. To me it is an unsatisfactory scale. The British Medical Association stated that their scales were constructed on two sets of figures, one the average of prices over two years, in one town, Stockton-on-Tees, and, secondly, the average of the figures of seven medical officers of health during a fortnight in the summer of 1933. I express the opinion that this scale is highly unsatisfactory and insufficient, the districts being too few and the time too short. What we want is a thoroughly satisfactory scientific scale of the cost of living drawn up by experts. The hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Miss Rathbone) asked the Minister how the scales

    1193
    had been produced; and all the information we had, until this morning, was contained in the speech made by the Minister on the first day's discussion:
    "I want the House to realise that our scales are the result of a very careful survey by the board of the primary needs of the people for whom they have been responsible. There are, in addition, these various social surveys which have been carried out and which have produced some theoretical figures as to needs. All those the board have had within their purview."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December, 1934; col. 840, Vol. 296.]
    That is not satisfactory. What we want, and what the Ministry ought to have worked out, is an authoritative scale of the cost of living drawn up by people who knew on the basis of undeniable facts. The hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. White) has referred to the desirability of appointing a committee to go into the matter. I want to press that point. We do not want a committee like those mentioned by the hon. Member opposite from a document which none of us can get, but a committee composed of the wives of working men, shopkeepers, small tradesmen, with a certain number of sociologists, and members of trade unions and co-operative societies, who could give valuable information. From such a body we could get a satisfactory scale of the cost of living, and instead of blindly groping in the dark, as we are now, we should have something upon which we could rely to base our conclusions.
    I am specially concerned about the children. Although the health of the country, considering everything, is remarkably satisfactory—in 1933 we had the second lowest infant death-rate in our history—there is no doubt that side by side with this satisfactory fact is the knowledge that there are in the large centres of population children who are suffering from malnutrition. The report of the Army for 1933 shows that 52 per cent. of the young men who applied for admission were rejected as unfit, and most of them were between the ages of 18 and 19 years. In the northern towns the figure was as high as 70 per cent. In many cases where malnutrition of the children is to some extent avoided it is due almost entirely to the sacrifices of the mothers. If the children do not suffer from malnutrition, their mothers do, and there is no doubt that the high death-rate in child birth among the working
    1194
    classes is largely due to the bad and unsatisfactory health of the mothers, owing to their having denied themselves for their children.
    Sir F. FREMANTLE: Does not the hon. Member know that maternal mortality is as high in the upper classes as it is in the lower classes?
    Mr. LOVAT-FRASER: I do not accept that statement. The figures are to the contrary. We want a standard of malnutrition. At the present time the figures as to malnutrition among children vary in a most amazing way. Let me give some figures published by medical officers of health. In Leeds 31 per 1,000 of the children suffer from malnutrition; in Wigan, 9; in Twickenham, which we associate with villas and comfort, 70; in Kettering, 2; and in Bootle there is 12 times as much malnutrition among children as in Liverpool. This is a question which should be cleared up. We want a satisfactory standard of nutrition and of malnutrition. If we had a satisfactory inquiry many doubts would be cleared up. It is constantly said by certain types of people that the working-class mother does not bother about the food of her children and that she feeds them on tinned foods. As a matter of fact, investigation has shown that this is not true. According to a survey of the Merseyside the only tinned food which working-class mothers give in anything like quantities to their children is condensed milk. There is another matter which I will mention because it may interest hon. Members. Let me read a passage from the "Newcastle Journal" of the 27th of October:
    "The extensive malnutrition that exists among juveniles on Tyneside is revealed in a comprehensive report dealing with junior instruction centres which has been prepared by Mr. Valentine A. Bell. Signs of underfeeding and malnutrition were obvious at Jarrow, Hepburn, South Shields, Sunder-land and Bishop Auckland, where Mr. Bell was struck by the pinched faces and undersized bodies of several of the boys. Lads had to be excused physical exercises because they were not strong enough to stand the strain."
    And then comes this remarkable sentence:
    "Much of this infficiency in the opinion of the superintendents was due to too much cigarette smoking."

    1195
    There is a matter which wants to be investigated. Most hon. Members know their Dickens and will remember the man in "Pickwick" who said that tobacco was meat and drink to him. Tobacco is unsatisfactory meat and drink to underfed juveniles. An exhaustive and careful inquiry would clear up these matters. I endorse the suggestion that there should be an early reconsideration of these scales. The right ton. Member for Wake-field (Mr. Greenwood) suggested that they should be reconsidered in three months time. Perhaps that is a rather short period, but at all events I would urge that the Government should ask such a committee as that to which I have referred to take these matters into consideration, and when they have received their report they can then reconsider the whole question and give the unemployed sufficient to enable them to live a healthy and efficient life.
    5.29 p.m.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: The hon. Member for Lichfield (Mr. Lovat-Fraser) has demonstrated that the regulations are futile to meet the situation. I am delighted that the party to which I belong decided, after great pressure was put upon them, to have nothing to do with appointing a representative on this Committee. I wish other parties had done likewise. I can see written large over these regulations an individual who has administered the Poor Law for many years, an individual who has no heart, no conscience at all, but simply administers it as if it was a machine. These regulations are drawn up on behalf of an unfortunate section of the people. One would think that they had been drawn up for criminals instead of for an unfortunate section of the working classes, those who are unemployed through no fault of their own. The Government and the head of the Government, in particular, have had experience in trying to find out whether the unemployed were a section of the community who had been dealt with unfairly or whether they were a section of the community that should be treated as criminals. Not only this Government, but several Governments have devised ways and means, or have tried to do so, for handling this unemployment problem so as to find work for the unemployed; in other words to find justification for giving them the where
    1196
    withal in order that they could have a comfortable life. In every attempt that Governments have made up to now they have miserably failed. There are not hundreds or thousands of our fellows, but millions who are denied the right to a comfortable life through no fault of their own.
    Faced with that situation, the present Government, whose supporters are eternally twitting the Opposition with the accusation that Labour did no better—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—Hon. Members may say "Hear, hear," but the fact remains that the present Government appealed to the country because Labour did not do what supporters of the present Government said Labour would do. The country took the present Government at its word and gave it the most powerful majority that any Government in this country has ever had. There is nothing that this Government desires to do that it cannot put through the House. We may be few in numbers, but the fact that these regulations are produced, the fact that they come from a committee that is outwith the power of this House, is proof beyond a shadow of doubt that, small in numbers though we may be, we have used up every Labour Minister that the Government have put up against us. The last Labour Minister, a great, big, powerful fellow, mentally and physically, well equipped for the job, good-natured and willing to meet us as far as he could—even he was breaking down under the strain of the pressure that the Labour benches were putting on him. We come not from smug respectability but from the working class. We live among the folk among whom we have always lived. We keep ourselves entirely apart, or some of us do, systematically keep ourselves from having anything to do with the wealthy people of our own or any party. Therefore we all come fresh from our own folk without being trammelled with any of this bribing away, and always having before us the awful conditions under which our folk live, move and have their being—our own folk, our own kith and kin, and our own relations, as good men and women as any who are in this House, as able mentally and physically as any in this House, not excluding her Ladyship the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor), who would not stand a ghost of a chance with the women of my class.

    1197
    Those individuals, upon whom the regulations will be imposed, are not criminals. Therefore they ought to be treated with justice and respect. But the regulations will not treat them with justice or respect. The Government are cutting things down to the very bone in these regulations. My colleagues on the front bench to-day gave figures and data, not from Socialist sources, but from the committees that have been set up by the Government. They were figures which showed that the Government had analysed how little it is possible for a child to live upon. That is the point from which the Government start—how little a child can live upon. This great and powerful Government, this great and powerful Empire that boasts it is the mightiest Empire the sun ever shone on, this wealthy Empire, starts with the children. The fathers and mothers may be anything you like to designate them, but what about the children? What harm have they done? Are they criminals? Why is it that in our day and generation we should start in such a callous and brutal fashion to analyse how little it is possible for these little children to live upon? The hon. Member for Lichfield was interrupted by the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle). The hon. Member for St. Albans is a doctor, and it always strikes me as very strange that his mental outlook is so perverted and different from what I would expect it to be, for he is educated and a medical man. Time and time again he interjects on the same lines. He said that the mortality amongst the children of the wealthy section of the community is as high as that amongst the poor.
    Sir F. FREMANTLE: I said the maternal mortality was as high.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: That is another question. It does not say very much for this powerful Government if the mortality of child-birth among the wealthy and among the poor is about as bad to-day as it was 20 years ago. It need not be so, and there is something seriously wrong. Let me turn to the city that I know best, my native city of Glasgow. The Glasgow School Board took a census of the different districts in Glasgow. The census covered Pollock, which the Home Secretary represents, and Kelvinside, which is represented by the present Minister of Agriculture, and also took
    1198
    part of the division of Bridgeton, the Calton district. What did they find? That boys and girls living in the single apartments of Calton, compared with the boys and girls in the other two constituencies I have named, excluding the working-class section of Kelvinside, were 2½ inches lower in height at 12 years of age. Apart from that the death-rate was absolutely alarming. In the Home Secretary's constituency the death-rate among children of one year and under is 24 per thousand. In the Bridgeton division among the working-class it is 113 per thousand. We are eternally hearing not only fro mTories but from so-called Socialists that there is no class struggle in society. Here it is with a vengeance. The mothers in the Home Secretary's constituency are no better than the mothers in Bridgeton. The working-class mothers are just as good as the mothers in any other section of the community, and it is damnable that that terrible death-rate should go on among my class.
    Viscountess ASTOR: It is not your class.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: The hon. Lady says it is not my class.
    Viscountess ASTOR: It applies to all classes.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: It is not a case of all classes. I have tried to show that the contention of the hon. Lady and of those who hold like opinions is erroneous. Here I am comparing a working-class district, which I know, with another district which is not of a working-class character and the death rate in the one is terrible as compared with the death rate in the other.
    Viscountess ASTOR: I am sure the hon. Member would not wish to do any injustice, and, if he will look into the statistics of maternal mortality, he will see that it is not something which concerns one section of the people alone.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: I was referring to the death rate among children.
    Viscountess ASTOR: I beg the hon. Member's pardon.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: The two districts which I have mentioned to the House are within a penny tram ride of each other, and yet we have that terrible

    1199
    death rate among the children in the one compared with the other. I want the House to realise what that death rate means. It shows a terrible state of affairs, a state of affairs for which I consider I share some responsibility with other hon. Members. I feel that I would not be doing my duty if I did not, regardless of jeers and gibes, wherever they may come from, draw attention to what is going on at present, I consider that I would be failing in my duty if I did not stand up here to say that we are not playing fair in these matters. The unemployed are not getting a square deal.
    I put it to any hon. Member. I speak as one who knows what it is to have a family of five children under 10 years of age and to have only 36s. a week. I was just as capable, just as physically fit, just as well-equipped mentally as the next individual, but that was all the money I could earn by working every hour that I could get. I know the struggle which my wife had in the circumstances. I can never forget it, but my earnings represented double what is going to be allowed under these regulations. We could not have afforded to pay 7s. 6d. a week in rent. I challenge any man or woman in Britain to say that it is possible to rear a hardy intelligent family on the amount of money that is to be paid out under these proposals. It could not be done, and I say to hon. Members, "You have no right to ask any other person to do what you know you could not do yourself." I have had to sit here time and time again and to hear the section of the community who suffer in this way, being traduced and told that they are not capable. Well, if they are not capable, that is a reason why they should get more and not less consideration. But I would like the House to consider this aspect of the matter. If a war were to break out, where would you get your soldiers? Where would the First Lord of the Admiralty get his navy men? From this very class, and no matter how you treat them if they were asked to go to war to-morrow they would go, because they believe in their innermost hearts that they have a country to fight for. But here they are to-day and they have nothing to fight for. They are offered these regulations which propose to hand out 24s. a week to a man and woman
    1200
    as their subsistence, when everybody knows that it is impossible for people to maintain themselves in decency on that sum. With regard to the 4s. for the child I have advocated repeatedly in this House and voted for an allowance of 5s. a week for a child and 30s. a week for a man and wife.
    A remarkable feature of these regulations is the way in which one section of the community, the property-owners are to get a guarantee in respect of rent. In some way or other that I have not yet been able to fathom they have got that guarantee. Here are regulations which are to be applied to the folk who won that great War of which we have heard so much, and under those regulations, which give such scanty sums to those people, the property-owners, the individuals who own the homes—such as they are—of those people are to get a guarantee of their rent. They never had such a guarantee before. I have always instilled into my constituents this advice: "Never mind the rent. We can see about that later on, but feed your weans. Spend the money on food." Now apparently that is a thing of the past and the factors, as we call them in the West of Scotland, are to be guaranteed their rent in a manner never known before. A man and wife and child are to get 28s. a week but of that sum 7s. 6d. is to be docketed for rent, leaving the handsome sum of £1 0s. 6d. per week for that family. That is to say a man with all his faculties with his own ideas of life, with all the requirements of modern civilisation causing greater demands to be made upon him than were made 50 or 60 years ago—such a man has to provide for himself and his wife and child out of £1 0s. 6d. a week.
    Most hon. Members upon Tuesday next will probably be joining in singing and doing honour to Christmas. It is hypocrisy under existing conditions and in face of such proposals as these, coming from a Government with all the power of the present Government. There can be no comparison with the Labour Government because the Labour Government never had a majority. But this Government have the power to put into practice what they preach, at Christmas at any rate. When we asked last week for an extra bag of coal the Prime Minister smiled and shook his head and said that it could not be done. All that this great

    1201
    powerful country and this great powerful Empire can do is to produce these regulations. There is not the least bit of humane kindness in them. There is no consideration whatever for the people affected. Yet on Christmas morning, hon. Members will probably be worshiping at the shrine of One who was "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." If that is not hypocrisy, I do not know what is. Think of what happens here every day. We open the proceedings of this assembly with the Lord's Prayer. I need not repeat it, but after it all this is what we get—these regulations. All that this powerful Government can offer are these regulations which mean that on the Clydside—and of this I can speak authoritatively—men will suffer a reduction on what they are getting now.
    As a result of what the Government have said to the effect that we are rounding the corner, other sections of the community are receiving increases. The Government have even decided to give back half the reduction imposed upon Members of Parliament. Practically every municipal authority in Britain has given back the cuts to its employés. There are very few who have not made good those reductions. Yet here the Government, with all their power, with all their supporters declaring that they have stabilised the whole financial situation of the country, with all their statements about the power of the Government and what they can do, instead of doing away with cuts on the unemployed produce these regulations. The Prime Minister used to be a great individual for making a gesture. We had a gesture on the introduction of the last Budget, for which I give credit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because I always appreciate anything, be it ever so little, from whatever quarter it may come, that is done for the unemployed. I know what it is to be unemployed, not to have any job, not to have a friend to put in a word for me for a job, to go to gate after gate asking if there is any chance of a job, and to be turned down.
    The Government, instead of going on the general trend of to-day and increasing the purchasing power of the people, have done the opposite. There is a general atmosphere being created, and I am doing my very best to create it in my union, to get them to demand an increase
    1202
    in wages. I think the time is opportune, and if I can get them to go on strike and break up this peace in industry, you can take it from me that, with the way in which the Government are behaving, I will use all my influence in that direction. We have had too much peace in industry, and this is the price we are paying for it. It is possible that some will say, "It is a good thing you have not very much influence," but you will see. Here you had the opportunity to introduce regulations which could have given the unemployed an increase in their purchasing power. Every political economist to-day of any note, and politicians on all sides of the House, on the public platform, in the country, and when they are writing articles, all proclaim that this is the age of abundance and that the remedy is to distribute that abundance. Now there is no way given among men under present conditions to distribute that abundance other than by giving to folk the power to buy it back.
    Here is a section of the community that is starving for every necessary of life, not only food, but clothing and furniture. Go into the unemployed man's home to-day. I do not care how industrious he is, I do not care if, like myself, he neither smokes nor drinks, I do not care if he spends nothing on luxuries but lives a simple life and has few wants—he can go to the kirk every Sunday if he likes and stay there all day on Sunday—let him be as good living as it is humanly possible to be—I say that you can go into that man's home, and you will find bare walls, no furniture, no bedding, no clothing, and the man glad to get the cast-offs of anybody. Men whom I know, who would not accept anything through charity, who would refuse, and have refused, to take a coat to shelter themselves from the cold blasts of my native land, I have seen reduced to accepting charity for their children. That is the type that is dealt with here. That is what these regulations have to meet. Will they supply the need? Will that 24s. to that man and wife supply the bare necessaries of life, when we take the 7s. 6d. off for rent? Everybody in the country knows that it is an utter impossibility. The most able man in this House—I do not care how able he is, how well equipped he is, mentally and physically—neither he nor all the women in this House put together could main-

    1203
    tain a home in decency on that allowance. It cannot be done.
    The Government had a wonderful opportunity of setting the wheels of industry going if they had issued regulations which would have given the unemployed the right to go and buy the food, clothing, furniture, and shelter, that they are desperately in need of. If they had issued regulations along those lines, then they would have done something. It would have been possible to justify the idea of taking away from this House the power, which is the inalienable right of the Members of this House, to have the Minister of Labour here before us, to criticise him, and to put him through it, as we have been in the habit of doing. I would even have sacrificed that if regulations had been issued as a result of a dictatorship that was determined to put into force noble, humane ideas, with a human spark, that would meet the situation and give the unemployed a chance in life which they have never had. Until either this Government or some Government tackles this unemployment question along the lines which we Socialists have indicated, the unemployment question will tumble every Government that comes before the country.
    6.11 p.m.
    Viscountess ASTOR: It is very difficult to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood). He spoke about jeers and gibes, but he is the last person in the world whom anyone would jeer at. He told of times when he had no friends, but he has never been short of friends since he got among what he calls his class enemies here. We may be what he calls in a different class, but I think nobody approves of that particular class of which he speaks so bitterly, and I feel sure that in spite of his words he realises the great difficulties with which the Government have been faced. The hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Paling) lashed himself into a passion, and I know he feels deeply about the unemployed, as we all do. Anybody who has been in the devastated areas must do, and you do not need to go there; you have unemployed men and women in your own constituency, and you know how pathetic and how appalling is their plight. But I do not think the case of the unemployed has been made better by making it a political issue, and when I
    1204
    hear hon. Members above the Gangway here, much as I admire and like them individually, talking about humbug, well, it gives me to think. I think they forget. They are like the Bourbons. They have forgotten nothing and learned nothing when they talk about what the National Government have done.
    One hon. Member asked if the Government thought these regulations were a return ticket for the House of Commons, but the Government did not come in on a return ticket. They came in as a salvage corps. They came in to clear up the mess made by hon. Members above the Gangway, who went all over the country making speeches like those we have heard in this House during the last three days. You had people believing in them when they read "Labour and the Nation," and that is why they got the country in a mess. They told the country what they were going to do if they were returned to power. I heard the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) lashing himself into a passion about the Poor Law. Has he forgotten the guardians of Chester-le-Street and what happened there? It is because of that sort of thing that the National Government are trying to take this thing out of politics and to put it on a proper basis, and nobody will be more grateful than the Labour Members, when they come in if they ever do. I can prove it to them in a minute.
    I think it is a very remarkable thing for a Government to have done to have dealt with this question of the insured and uninsured unemployed in the way they have done. It was only three short years ago that, because of the hon. Members above the Gangway and their wonderful promises, the country was paying £1,000,000 a week towards the insurance scheme.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: It could afford it.
    Viscountess ASTOR: You would have had no social services at all if you had gone on. That is why the country turned you out. Members below me here know all about it; they know what a mess we got into. I remember having to fight an election when the first Insurance Act came along, and it gave 1s. a week for a child. We said that it was not enough, but that we were grateful for it, and Members above the Gangway and their party said, all over the country, that

    1205
    the Tories were saying that 1s. a week was enough for a child. We never said it, but we said that it was better than nothing. The Labour people came in shouting and yelling promises, and what did they do for the children? They gave 2s. a week, but we never said that they held it was enough. We knew that it was all they could do. Here is the National Government giving to the child of the uninsured unemployed man more than the Labour party gave to the child of the insured man. What the Government have done is something astounding, and it amazes the whole world. I am grateful to them because they have kept our social services going. There are now unemployed men and women under public assistance who will live at a higher rate than employed men and women all over Europe to-day. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"] It may be a shame, but it is true, and nobody knows it better than hon. Members on the Opposition Benches. Then they come here and make a hullabaloo about a heartless Government without any feeling for the poor.
    Hon. Members of the Labour party have made a great point about the younger men having to contribute to the family. May I remind the right hon. Gentleman who is one of my great favourites in the party—[Laughter.] We can all have different political views, but that does not mean that we have not respect for one another or that there is any personal bitterness. That is the beauty of British politics. It is only when people become class conscious that they become bitter, and instead of belonging to one class they belong to no class. They are un-classed. Here is what the Labour party brought forward: That it shall be the duty of a father, grandfather, mother, grandmother, husband or child of a poor person, if possessed of sufficient means, to relieve and maintain that person. The Labour party brought that in in 1930. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Perhaps they have forgotten it, but they cannot get away from it. Not only did the boy in work have to contribute, but the grandfather, grandmother and everybody else had to do so. Hon. Members may have forgotten it, but we have not forgotten it, and I do not believe that the country has forgotten it. [An HON. MEMBER: "You are a mother."] I am a grandmother, too, and that makes me all the wiser. Really, let us be honest about
    1206
    these things. Let us give credit where credit is due.
    I agree that these regulations are not perfect, but there is nothing more difficult than distributing public assistance. It is the most difficult thing in the world. Hon. Members opposite have been talking for years about making the relief of the unemployed a national charge. Now that the Government have done it, can hon. Members suggest a better way than that which the Government are proposing? We have not had a constructive suggestion so far from them. We do not expect any, for if they had any ideas they would have done it years ago. They criticised for years and years when they were in Opposition, and then they came in with the promise of work for all or full maintenance grants for the unemployed, and pensions for all widows, but while they were in office they had not an idea in their heads. We ought to be very grateful to the National Government for reorganising our insurance system. It was the dream of Mr. Sidney Webb, who said that some time some Government ought to do it. He did not think they would, but the National Government have done it. I do not think the scheme is perfect. The hon. Member for West Willesden (Mrs. Tate) made a good point about women and rent, and perhaps the Government can do something about it. Although it is not perfect, it is far more perfect than most people thought it would be. It is a remarkable performance and a great credit to those younger men who have brought it about, and a great credit to the older men to have accepted it.
    I am perfectly ready to criticise the National Government and any other Government when I think they need it, but I am not prepared to listen to the most humbugging speeches I have ever heard in my life. Hon. Members talk as though they were the only guardians of the poor, but there would have been nothing but poor if they were their only guardians. I quite agree with some of the Members who want to bring down the capitalist system; they are perfectly right——
    Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: Hear, hear.
    Viscountess ASTOR: I wonder what the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) has got to say about bureaucratising the Poor Law,

    1207
    which an hon. Member said that these regulations meant. I have a little quotation here from the hon. and learned Member, the gist of which is that they could not have legislation delayed by debating it in the House of Commons. These great saviours of society would brook no delay. When the Government use experts to look into social questions they are called bureaucrats, but when the other side want to do it they are called saviours of society. The Labour party will have to use a number of experts when they get in next time. The Government have done a remarkable thing. They have entirely reorganised our Poor Law. That process began in 1929, and this is not the end. It is a further step forward and thousands of people in the country will be grateful. The Government may have to fight about it, but it will not be a very hard fight. People are making great sacrifices to support the uninsured unemployed, but it is not to be expected that they can be supported at the same figure as employed men receive. No country in the world has done that. Not even that paradise Russia would think of doing it. Hon. Members know that if they got into power to-morrow they would not do it. Some day they will be very grateful to the National Government for clearing up things so far as to make them fool-proof for Governments which come after.
    6.23 p.m.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: The Noble Lady showed a remarkable facility for ringing the changes, and I do not propose to follow her in all her observations. Perhaps the most incredible of all her statements was her announcement that she is a grandmother. We congratulate her. I have heard the present Government described by many terms, but this is the first occasion on which I have heard them described as a salvage corps. They may regard themselves as a body comparable to a salvage corps, but what should we think of a corps which itself gave the alarm of fire and, when they got to the seat of the supposed fire, found that no fire existed and they remained on the spot, just standing around? That is the origin of this salvage corps, and we are now examining some of the so-called salvage Work which they have been trying to carry out. The Minister
    1208
    of Labour in his speech on these regulations made a comprehensive survey of the work of providing unemployment insurance over the last 20 years. He said there had been many improvements and he referred in detail to the changes that had taken place. No one on this side of the House will deny that there has been an improvement in insurange against unemployment. We began it a couple of years before the War, and in 1920 a great addition to the scheme was brought into existence. Since then two or three times every year we have paid attention to unemployment insurance legislation, until to-day there is a great improvement over the conditions in which we commenced the system about 20 years ago.
    Despite the improvement which we have witnessed and in which we have all participated, it cannot be denied that the plight of the unemployed to-day is worse than it has been for a considerable time. It is much worse than it was in those days, of which we are so frequently reminded, when a Labour Government was in office. By 1931 a considerable improvement had been achieved. Large numbers of people retained their rights to benefit, and full benefit was paid regardless of other considerations. It was this National Government, this salvage corps, that brought about the change, the degradation and the disadvantages which we witnessed in the Economy Act, 1931. It is well that we should remember what took place in 1931. This later chapter of the story of unemployment insurance began with the Economy Act, 1931. We had, it is true, a very large body of unemployed and we were paying benefit to the unemployed and their dependants to the extent of over £100,000,000 a year. Their scale of benefit was fixed at 17s. for an unemployed man, 9s. for his wife or dependant, and 2s. for each dependent child.
    I have taken out figures which show that the average rate of benefit per applicant was just in excess of £1 per week. In the county of Glamorgan the payment made to each applicant averaged £1 1s. 8d. In the neighbouring county of Monmouth the average statutory benefit—without deduction owing to extraneous conditions—was £1 1s. 3d. a week. It will thus be seen that this Unemployment Fund, which in 1931 cost £100,000,000 a year, provided only just over £50 a year

    1209
    for every recipient of benefit, not a very large sum of money having regard to the fact that the £50 had to meet the needs of the families and dependants of applicants where families and dependants existed. In 1931 the whole basis of insurance was changed, because of the alleged burden of debt on the Unemployment Fund, which was due to false actuarial assumptions in previous years and to the recommendations of the experts of various Governments, adequate provision was not being made to meet the services of the fund. The first thing the Government did was to raise the contributions from each of the three contributing parties. That may be regarded as a great improvement, but at any rate it did not introduce any new principle into the scheme of insurance.
    Under the Economy Act an addition of 33⅓ per cent. was made to contributions. Additional contributions were claimed from the employed workers, from their employers and from the State in various proportions. The larger proportionate increase was demanded from the workers in employment. Their contributions were increased from 7d. per person per week to 10d., an increase of 42 per cent. The contributions of the employers and the State, were, therefore, less than 33⅓ per cent. respectively. The effect of these increases was to raise the total contribution in respect of every person employed from 1s. 10½d. per week to 2s. 6d. Those increases brought an enormous additional revenue to the fund, an addition of about £16,000,000 or £17,000,000 a year. That did not show any ingenuity, or statesmanship, or special capacity on the part of the "salvage corps." Anybody could have done that. Anybody can make any fund solvent by raising the contributions sufficiently high. There is the first explanation of what is regarded as the improvement in the insurance conditions of the people.
    Not content with raising the contributions by £16,000,000 or £17,000,000 a year, the Government, in the same Economy Act, introduced changes in the rates of benefit. There was a universal cut of 10 per cent. in standard benefit and the imposition of the means test, and these together meant a reduction of well over £25,000,000 in benefits. By the acquisition of increased contributions amounting to £16,000,000 or £17,000,000, and the
    1210
    reduction of £25,000,000 in benefits, £42,000,000 a year was taken from one side of the balance sheet of the Unemployment Fund and put on to the other side. The Government now take credit for doing that. They say that shows their capacity in contrast with that of the Labour Government. I do not think the "salvage corps" ought to take credit for having destroyed the property which they were set up to save. After all, the object of the insurance scheme was to maintain the human property of the State in a fit working condition, in which it could render service to the State, and when the Government claim credit for having reduced the standard of efficiency and of comfort of those citizens who came under this scheme, we charge them with having been false to the idea of insurance and lacking in the discharge of their responsibilities to the people.
    The Minister also claims credit for having in Part I of the Act established a definite scheme of insurance based on sound principles. I cannot see that there is any sound principle; indeed, I make this allegation, that in 1931 the principle of insurance was destroyed. Not since 1931 has the principle of insurance been operating under Part I. The Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee were set up and entrusted with all kinds of responsibilities, given the power to make all kinds of alterations in the conditions of insurability. We find now that there is no settled scheme of insurance at all. There is no insurance policy that any responsible client would look at if it were offered to him by an insurance company. There can be variations in contributions on the instructions of the Statutory Committee, and also variations in benefits. Contributions may be changed without the consent of the insured person, and so may the benefits. The value of the policy may be changed without consulting the insured person, who as a contributor, even if not as a citizen, ought to be consulted.
    I will come now to Part II. I should have said that even under the scale of statutory benefits the condition of the unemployed has been worsening and worsening in direct proportion to the length of time they have been unemployed. They have got deeper and deeper into poverty, and their plight has become more desperate. Part II lays it down

    1211
    that all able-bodied persons insured or insurable are to be dealt with in accordance with the needs of themselves and the people with whom they are associated in life. The working man who has been unemployed for a long time is to have these regulations applied to him; he is to live under these regulations. The regulations have been put before the House and explained in great detail by representatives of the Government, and they have been examined by Members in all parts of the House, and instances and illustrations of their working in a variety of cases have been submitted, but the House is not to adjudicate upon the regulations. It would be wrong to assume that the House can exercise the slightest influence upon the regulations. The House is told to take the regulations, or to reject them. Hon. Members opposite, pledged to support the National Government dare not defy the Government. I will not believe that everybody sitting on the benches opposite, where there are representatives of all sorts of constituencies, is so little acquainted with the conditions of the people as to say that these regulations represent the best the country can do for the unemployed. But those Members are behind the National Government and they will vote for the Government, although in giving their support to the National Government I am sure they are not pronouncing their real feelings about these regulations.
    The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. J. Reid) was in a Very inquisitive mood yesterday. I do not find fault with that, because I think even the most learned Member has a right to ask questions, but before he comes to the House to put forward those questions he ought to make as many private inquiries as he can on the subject; and I lay this charge against the hon. Member, that before coming down to the House to make that speech he had not played his part by a previous study of the subject. The hon. Member raised so many questions that I shall not deal with more than two. One point he raised was the connection between the rate of benefit to be paid under Part II and the rate of wages payable to certain classes of people. He warned the House against the danger of paying benefits under Part II which were greater than the sums received in wages by certain classes of
    1212
    people. I do not think this House ought to pay any attention to that warning. We have been told that after inquiries and investigations, after the appointment of a special board and the appointment of I do not know how many committees, scales have been drawn up which represent the needs of individuals and of families. But the hon. Member says, "Oh, but if you pay people under these scales, based on the elementary needs of family life, you may find that you do an injustice—not to the person who is to receive that measure of satisfaction, but to his neighbour who is receiving a smaller wage."
    There are a large number of people, I think between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 people, earning no more than 25s. a week. Here I would throw out a suggestion to the Lord President of the Council and the Members of the Government. Now that we have embarked on this kind of legislation they would confer a service on the House by furnishing more statistics of wages paid in this country than are available at present. We do not know what wages are being paid. We do not know what number of people are receiving 20s. or 21s. a week. We are assured, however, that about 3,000,000 people in the country earn not more than 25s. a week. The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk says "Be careful. Do not commit an injustice against these people by paying a neighbour who lives next door a scale of unemployment benefit which is higher than the other man's wages." No regard is to be paid to the fact that the plight of this low paid wage earner has gone unheeded for year after year. The only sympathy to be shown towards him is not by giving him more but by giving his neighbour less. I have never heard a more ridiculous argument from a learned person. The longer I sit in this House, the better able I am to judge the value of the title "learned."
    The hon. Member said something else which was equally fantastic, that the rent allowances will be an encouragement to working people to move to better houses. It is suggested that the working man who now pays 9s. a week because he cannot get a cheaper house will, by reason of the rent allowances—paltry, I call them—in these regulations be tempted to move into a new council house or privately-built house at a rent of 15s., 16s. or 17s. a week. The argument is too ridiculous,

    1213
    and I do not think that I should be asked to pursue it at any length. I make this allegation: the application of the means test in the area best known to me has been very largely responsible for the curtailing of building operations and for diminishing the supply of houses which would have meant cheaper rents for our people. I could give the House the benefit of figures.
    I would make a suggestion to the hon. Member who was so concerned with the working people who are badly paid in this country. I would advise him to associate for one week with the working people in the town which he represents, and I suggest that he starts next week. Christmas Day is an ordinary day in Scotland, so I suggest that he starts next Monday and associates for a whole week with the working people. Let him have a night out every night in the week. Let the first night out be with a navvy, the second with a miner, the third with a bricklayer, the fourth with a mechanic, the fifth with a railwayman and Saturday night with a road man. Then the hon. Member can go to Church on Sunday to learn about his duty to all his fellow-men. I am sure that he will learn very much more if he follows my suggestion than he has learned for a very considerable time on some of the subject matters which are laid before the House.
    We object to the principle of the means test, but on this occasion we cannot go fully into that principle. Our Amendment says that we are opposed to the scales because they are inadequate. I challenge the whole thing; I am opposed altogether to the means test, as I have been from the commencement, and I stand unrepentant to-day, with very much less learning than some hon. Members and very much less sophistry, and say that I could make a convincing case to the majority of the people of this country. These scales are based upon previous scales. I ask the House not to attach too much importance to this rigid mathematical assessment of people's needs. We have heard of the British Medical Association's scales, of the Ministry of Health scales and lots of other scales, and we are asked to decide whether 3,500 calories or 3,000 calories are an appropriate meal for a navvy or a navvy's wife. I express very strongly a definite opinion on the subject of calories, and that is if
    1214
    I want a reliable opinion I will ask the navvy about them. I am sure his reply would be much more intelligent and more to the point than many of the reports which we have had on the subject.
    These scales of transitional payments are put forward ostensibly as increases in the rate of benefit, but let hon. Members mark that the first change to be found is the reduction of benefit to a man and his wife. The statutory benefit paid to man and wile is 26s. per week, but under this scale there will be a reduction of 2s. The provisional assessment provides for 24s. a week. What a travesty of justice and sympathy all this is. A few weeks ago we were invited to throw our hats into the air because the Government had restored the 10 per cent. cuts in standard benefits and, at a later date, to the persons receiving transitional benefit. What do we find to-day? The 10 per cent. is almost entirely taken off. Ten per cent. was put on last July and 8 per cent. of it is taken off in January in respect of a married man and his wife. That is taking off with one hand what the Government have professed to give with the other. The Government claim that they are giving more to the people who have come down from 26s. to 24s. because of the children's allowances, but the average number in a family is less than two, and therefore for the average family there is not one penny piece of advantage to the man, wife and children.
    I can give the House what I regard as a very hard case the like of which has not been mentioned before in the House, and which, I think, illustrates the final argument of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) and the lot of those people who reside in industrial districts. I will ask the House to examine with me what would happen to a family of seven persons in which the father is unemployed, a son, aged 26 years of age, who by great encouragement and wise direction has learned to be sufficiently efficient as an electrician—I am speaking of a case I know—earns £4 a week, the next son 24 years of age is unemployed, the next son 22 years of age is unemployed and there are two young children, one seven years of age and the other four years of age. The rent is 9s. per week. Apply these scales to the family. The father and mother receive the provisional allowance of £1 4s. per week, the eldest

    1215
    son 10s., the second son 8s., the third son 8s., the elder of the two children 3s. 6d. and the other 3s. To that we have to add one-third of the first £ of the earnings of the young man of 26 and one-quarter of his three remaining pounds. The young man is earning wages which are higher than those generally current in the industry, and he gets the 6s. 8d. on the first £ as his personal allowance and 5s. for each succeeding £, making 1s. 1s. 8d. I add the provisional assessment for the father and mother, brothers and sisters and the personal allowance for the young man, and find that the total is £3 18s. 2d. This young person of 26 years of age, earning £4 a week, is condemned to keep all the family himself, and not one penny piece comes in in respect of the unemployment of the father or the other brothers.
    I know something about working-class life, and a good deal more than any of the experts, and I submit to the Minister and to the experts who work with him that you cannot feed that family of seven on less than 50s. a week, that is seven persons for seven days per week at 1s. per person per day. I am putting it at the very lowest. I add 9s. rent to that. Fuel and lighting I put at 6s., which is a very low figure. Clubs and insurance I put at 4s. Anybody who knows anything about working-class life knows that that is very low also. In regard to trade unions, there is only one member of the family working, and he pays 1s. per week. Household utensils and soap are 4s., medical attendance and occasional medical provision are 3s. and 'bus fares 3s. I find that I have spent every penny of the money provided by the one wage-earner in the family; I have not left one penny for clothing, newspapers, books, tobacco, cigarettes or beer, and the family have nothing but the plainest of food and the barest of necessities. I invite the Parliamentary Secretary or any hon. Member to say whether they defend a condition of that kind. It is a scandalous condition of affairs, because it is condemning that young man to the repudiation of all the reasonable sentiments and ambitions of life, and compelling him to sacrifice his life to the needs of the family. Talk about the principles of insurance: that is putting the burden of all insurance
    1216
    upon the back of that young man, and upon the community to which he belongs.
    I will now speak of the area in which I live. Let us consider two industrial counties, Monmouthshire and Glamorganshire. In Glamorganshire there are at the present time 75,000 people receiving transitional payments and in Monmouthshire, 26,000 people. On the authority of those most competent to offer information it is stated that the loss to those people in Monmouthshire under the proposed scales will be no less than £250,000 and in Glamorganshire between £500,000 and £750,000 per year. I make the prediction that if these scales—these laws of the Medes and Persians—are applied to the payment of public assistance, the whole of the depressed areas of South Wales will lose not less than £1,000,000 per year. What is the use of sending a commissioner down to South Wales with only a fraction of £2,000,000 to spend when not less than £1,000,000 a year is taken away from the same district? Unemployment benefit is paid at the rate of £20,000,000 a year less than was paid in 1921.
    I make no apology for what I am saying as the representative of the distressed areas of South Wales. People suggest that we are dependent on the rest of the community and that the distressed areas of South Wales are taking money from the Treasury and from the taxpayers of this country. It is true that we have to be supported from outside sources to the extent of £10,000,000 a year, but I invite the House to put a proper valuation upon the services given by the limited number of men who are employed in the area and upon the quantity of coal which is produced in South Wales. On that, we can hold our heads erect and face this House and the country without an acknowledgment of debt on our part, but owing to our living in a condition of things in which wages, salaries and obligations are assessed on all kinds of flimsy bases, we are supposed to be drawing a contribution. We shall insist upon a higher measure of contribution being given to us in the circumstances, and we shall protest most strongly against its reduction. The National Government have a duty to the people of the country. I do not look upon the Government as a National Government, because they certainly are not, but they have chosen to

    1217
    wear the name and they must accept responsibility. Their responsibility is to every individual; not to some mythical taxpayer who pays all the money, but to all the people in the country who find the money by the exchange of goods and services and the contributions they make from time to time. The Government have a personal responsibility to the community.
    I stand here as one who has known poverty. I am not ashamed. I do not lack filial respect. I suffer from pride. I have great family pride. I remember the parents responsible for my upbringing, and remember the conditions then. I left school at 11 years of age, not to prepare a way to come here, for I never had any intention of coming here. But I have come here, and I never forget my responsibility to the people who are under similar conditions to-day. They are quite as good as any people in any part of this House. I deny superiority to any class of people in this country. We are reducing our people to a dead level of destitution from which there is no escape. The Government should put a placard over the doorway of every unemployed man's house, "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." We escaped from poverty by the contributions of my brothers and myself. When I came to 21 years of age, my parents insisted that I should prepare for my own responsibility in life. Responsibility should be placed on the heads of families—and long may the family reign with those family virtues we all respect. But under this Bill the Government are endangering the family. While you put responsibility on young people to maintain their family, you must give them the opportunity before their wedding day of preparing for marriage, otherwise you are taking from the pockets of young men the key to their new homes to which they will bring their bride and where they will rear their brood. You are denying to young men a decent community life.
    It is for that reason, and many other reasons, that I support the Amendment. I ask the Minister and the Lord President of the Council whether they will give a promise that the narrow, hard, rigorous and rigid scale embodied in this scheme shall not operate beyond a time limit of three months, and that when the predictions that we have foreshadowed
    1218
    follow, there will be another opportunity of pronouncing upon it?
    7.4 p.m.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. R. S. Hudson): We are approaching the close of the third day which has been devoted to the discussion of these regulations. Last week we devoted three days to the future political condition of 350,000,000 people in India. This week we have devoted three days to what, I believe, the House will agree is no less an important question, the material conditions of some 17,000,000 of our own people. The question we are really discussing to-day is, Do these regulations carry out the task that was laid upon the Unemployment Assistance Board by Parliament in the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1934, the task of providing for the needs of applicants? The scales that are contained in these regulations are not statutory sums to which the applicant is entitled as a right, but represent the sort of general standard that the board believe to be reasonable as a general average. But they do not in any way override or remove the primary duty of the board, its officers, and the Appeals Tribunals to relieve need. These scales have been criticised from many quarters.
    Let me deal first with one preliminary point. Some hon. Members have suggested that the scales should have been such that in no circumstance would any man suffer monetarily through the change-over from the public assistance authority to the board. My right hon. Friend the Minister dealt with that, and showed that if you really wanted such a system the board would have to go through every scale in the country and take out the highest figure and incorporate it in one scale, with a result that would have no relation whatever to ordinary circumstances to-day. The board have proceeded on a much sounder line, setting out to see whether there was any general line or standard adequate to provide the average family with healthy subsistence. It so happens that there have been recently a large number of detailed inquiries. I do not propose to bore hon. Members by going through details. It serves for my purpose to point out that, so far as food is concerned, the general conclusion of these inquiries is that the amount required for the healthy subsistence of an adult male lies between

    1219
    5s. and 6s., and for the healthy subsistence of a female somewhere between 4s. and 5s. That, incidentally, is an answer to the hon. Member for West Willesden (Mrs. Tate), who last night queried why the scale for women should be less than for men. The cost for children varies according to age upwards of 2s.
    I said that these scales had been criticised on the grounds of inadequacy. One of the most striking points about the surveys is that they show that food represents much less than a half of the expenditure to be provided for in a British working man's household, the other requirements being shelter, clothing, fuel and light. There are definite scientific standards for food. No such scientific standards can be found for rent, which varies infinitely in different parts of the country as between different households. But it has these common characteristics, first, that it has to be paid, and, secondly, that it is difficult or impossible to find alternative or cheaper accommodation. Therefore, the board, rightly I believe, provided that there should be a general provision for the payment of rent. The hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Paling), I think, said, "Why do you not say that in every case the rent actually being paid could be reimbursed to the applicant?" The answer is perfectly clear. If you have an automatic, strict rule in the regulations that the actual rent paid should be reimbursed to the applicant, you would encourage the danger of profiteering, but by not having such a rule you do not inflict any hardship on the applicant. If the actual rent is higher than the average, it becomes a matter of discretion for the board's officer to pay it wherever reasonable. What is left? Two other items—that for clothing, and that for fuel and light. The item for clothing depends very largely on conventional standard, which varies from generation to generation. The amount required for fuel, again, varies in different parts of the country. Neither is susceptible to exact mathematical calculations. The hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell), who made a speech we all admired, begged that there should be no rigid mathematical assessment of men's needs. I entirely agree with him. The proposal is to avoid that rigid assessment of need.
    1220
    That is why we have put this wide discretion in the hands of the board's officers and the Appeals Tribunal.
    The scales published are, in the board's opinion, the rates which in the average case will provide the heads of families with sufficient, after they have provided for food, for rent, and an adequate margin for clothing, fuel and other incidentals in the ordinary weekly needs. These scales have been criticised by various persons, in particular by what is known as the Children's Minimum Committee. The hon. Lady for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone), when she spoke yesterday, admitted that these scales represented a big increase on anything that had gone before for smaller families, but she took exception to what she alleged to be their inadequacy where families were larger. I started off by saying that these scales represent, in our view, the average conditions in the country. We have made complete provision, we believe, for discretion where there is not sufficient to meet needs.
    Let me give the House one or two figures. I apologise for giving so many figures, but we have been criticised in detail. In July of this year, the total number of men in receipt of transitional benefit was 760,000–480,000 men with dependants, 455,000 wives and 770,000 children. The average family in this count had 1½ children. The biggest group of all was that of parents with one child, which numbered 120,000. The next-biggest—those with two children—numbered 90,000. There were 155,000 married couples without any children, and the number of families in receipt of transitional payment with seven and eight children represent a completely negligible proportion. The biggest single group is that of married couples with one child, and that is precisely why the board put in the figure of 4s. for one child, which, I venture to think, astonished everyone, not least of all hon. Members opposite. We recognise that, when young people get married and have their first child, that obviously involves them in increased expense, and, therefore, the board was fully justified in providing, where there is only one child, that that child, irrespective of its age, shall receive not less than 4s. Let me point out incidentally, as the British Medical Association's scale has been

    1221
    quoted by hon. Members opposite in support of their allegations, that the allowance for the married man without children and the allowance for the married man with one child are both equal to or in excess of what are regarded by the British Medical Association as the minimum requirements.
    Taking the case of the family with two children—the next biggest group—the allowances there for the man, his wife and two children are actually in excess of the present rates of benefit. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan), in the course of the Debate in this House on the Bill, said that hon. Members were perfectly entitled to assume that under Part II the board would not treat an unemployed man as well as an unemployed man was treated under Part I. I have said on many occasions that that assumption was not justified, and we can now say that we are right, and that the hon. Member was not justified in saying that the board would not treat men under Part II as generously as they are treated under Part I.
    While I am on this question, let me say a word about a document that has been circulated to hon. Members by the Children's Minimum Committee. In the first place, the figure quoted for the typical family of a man, his wife and three children, in the green document circulated by that committee some little time ago, does not correspond with the figure given in the British Medical Association's scale. The British Medical Association's figure was 20s., and the figure quoted in the document was 21s. 8d. I see that yet another different figure is quoted, for the same sized family, in the document that was circulated to hon. Members this week. There is also a further misstatement. It is suggested that an inquiry by my Department has shown that only 2 per cent. of the adult males in the industries mentioned were drawing wages of 45s. or less. The calculation of that figure of 2 per cent. was based on the quite false assumption that, if an industry has an average wage of 45s., there are no people in that industry who are drawing less than 45s. The actual figure is not 2 per cent., but 20 per cent. The document goes on to assume that the wages stop Clause would operate in accordance with the average wages paid to the men in the
    1222
    district. There is not a word about that in the regulations. The regulations say that the wages stop Clause shall merely have regard to what the man himself and the earning members of his family would earn if they were at work. Finally, there is a suggestion that free milk and meals should be disregarded, implying, possibly, that they were not going to be disregarded. If any member of that committee had taken the trouble to ask anyone in my Department in general, on any day last week, they would have found that free milk and meals are going to be disregarded.
    Let me now turn to the allegation made by hon. Members opposite that there was no justification for the scale for a single man living at home being 10s. instead of 17s., and I will deal at the same time with the allegation that it was unfair that, in areas where high assessments were being given at present, those assessments should be reduced. I think the brief answer on the question of the adequacy of the figure of 10s. is that, in a very large number of areas to-day which are under the administration of the party to which hon. Members opposite belong, the figure actually is 10s., and is regarded by the Labour parties in those areas as sufficient. In particular, in London, which is at present under the administration of a Labour county council, the actual figure for a single man living at home is, not 10s, but 9s.
    Mr. G. R. STRAUSS: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the rent is added to that, and that actually, in the average case, it comes to about 17s. or 17s. 6d., and is very much more than is going to be allowed under these regulations?
    Mr. HUDSON: That may be so in the case of a single man who is not living at home, but in the case of a single man living at home it is 9s. I took the trouble to have that checked before I came into the Blouse. I will quote another case—I have plenty of alternatives. I will quote the case of Sheffield, where the figure is 10s. In Manchester it is below 10s., and I can quote innumerable cases all over the country in which it is generally recognised—as, indeed, it was in many areas in South Wales up to June of this year—that 10s., or something less than 10s., was adequate in that case.

    1223
    Let me deal with the other point, that it is unfair and wrong that assessments at present given at high rates in South Wales and other areas where Labour parties are in power ought not to be reduced. I have here a number of cases in which a family was in receipt of transitional payments at a high rate of assessment, and, having for one reason or another ceased to be entitled to transitional payments, has had to go to the Poor Law; and, without any change of circumstances whatever, except that now they are a charge on local money instead of having Government money distributed to them, the assessments of those families have been substantially reduced. I can quote cases in South Wales in which, living in the same family, there is an unemployed son in receipt of transitional payments, his needs being assessed by the public assistance committee, and a brother who is not entitled to transitional payments, but is dependent on the Poor Law. Their needs are assessed by the same committee, but the one man is drawing 17s. because he is being paid out of Government money, while the other is drawing 13s. because he is being paid out of the rates. In the face of evidence like that, how can hon. Members say that in no circumstances should the present high assessments be reduced? The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale asks, "Why not?" Because his own public assistance committee in South Wales considers that a smaller sum is sufficient.
    I will now deal with the point raised by the hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) about the regulations. Several hon. Members have criticised us for bringing in regulations which could only be approved or rejected, and are not subject to amendment. The Solicitor-General dealt with that point very fully yesterday, and pointed out that it is the usual practice to submit regulations to this House which have to lie on the Table and can only be rejected if a Motion for their rejection is put down. We have gone further, and said that these regulations were so important that the House of Commons should have a full opportunity of discussing them in detail before they were finally either approved or rejected. The hon. Member for Abertillery compared these regulations with the Anomalies Regulations, and said that we might say what we liked about
    1224
    the Anomalies Regulations, but at all events they had been before an independent committee. So, equally, have these. The hon. Member said that the Anomalies Regulations only affected 1,000 persons—I think that was a slip of the tongue—while these affected 4,000,000, and that therefore these were more important than the Anomalies Regulations. But the Anomalies Regulations were introduced under an Act which was brought in and passed by hon. Members opposite. Let the House compare the results of the two sets of regulations. The Anomalies Regulations threw 250,000 off unemployment insurance and deprived them of benefit, while we are distributing £3,000,000 among the existing recipients of transitional payments.
    Finally, I will deal with one or two detailed points that have been put to me. The hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) asked me what would happen in the case of persons transferred from public assistance to the board who had outstanding against them sums which had been granted to them on loan. The answer is that those sums will remain outstanding against them until they get work. Public assistance committees to-day do not grant extra money to applicants in order to enable them to pay off loans to themselves, nor do the board, and the situation will remain exactly as it is to-day. Some hon. Members have asked me what would happen to War Savings. War Savings producing no interest will be regarded as not having any value as far as income is concerned, and they will be disregarded. When they belong to the applicant or his wife or father or mother, they will be taken into consideration just as any other savings are; when they belong to someone other than the applicant, his wife or father or mother they will be treated as I have indicated, within the limits. I was also asked what would happen to the money received by persons who get maternity benefit, or who get money grants for extra nourishment from the tuberculosis services, and similar sums of that sort. They will all be disregarded, because they will be looked upon as being necessary to meet the extra needs of the applicant.
    I was asked what would happen to the excess over £1 in the case of disability pensions. The whole of the first £1, as hon. Members know, will be disregarded.

    1225
    Any sums over that will be treated as resources, except in any cases where, owing to the special nature of the disability, extra need arises which would make an inroad on the first £1. All school meals which are provided on doctors' orders as the result of definite physiological need will be disregarded; and free milk, the provision of cod liver oil, and services of that kind, will also be disregarded.
    Hon. Members opposite were particularly anxious to know what would be done in the case of customary deductions from wages. The broad rule will be, especially in the mining areas, that the sum shown on the miner's ticket will be accepted as his net wages, and the board will agree to all the ordinary deductions in accordance with the custom of the industry—deductions for insurance contributions, hospital, check weighing, with regard to which I was asked particularly, and so on. Travelling expenses will be allowed as a personal requirement, because they are not normally deducted by the employer. Trade union subscriptions are not normally deducted by the employer, but even where they are they will not be accepted as deductions from wages. The sharpening of tools will certainly be regarded as a legitimate deduction.
    Mr. T. SMITH: It is not merely a question of the sharpening of tools. There is the renewal of tools, which has to be paid for out of earnings. Under Income Tax that is allowed.
    Mr. HUDSON: It is very difficult to answer questions like that categorically without notice, but we may be quite sure that the officers of the board will treat that sort of thing reasonably and, whatever the views of the officer of the board are, the man will always be entitled to appeal.
    There is a final point to which I should like to reply. It was put by the hon. Member for Gower and refers to the family of seven persons. That brings me back to what I said earlier, that these regulations and scales are meant to deal with average cases. Hon. Members opposite will forgive me for pointing out that, in order seriously to challenge them, they have had to go into the highways
    1226
    and byways of their personal experience, and, when I point out that of the present recipients of transitional payment after July—760,000 of them—the overwhelming majority have families of an average of one and a-half children, to suggest that a family of seven persons or, as was suggested yesterday, a family with five unemployed sons is the average, or is even common, is, of course, absurd. Such a case is entirely exceptional and will be dealt with as an exceptional case subject to the overriding duty of the board to meet need.
    The hon. Members for Ince (Mr. G. Macdonald) and Leigh (Mr. Tinker) yesterday raised two points. One was as to what would happen in the case of a widow with a dependant's pension for her son killed in the War and what would happen to the 7s. 6d. allowance given to a man over 65. In the case of widows' pensions generally a calculation will be made, and she will be allowed the amount of her scale allowance under these regulations with that of the children, and anything left over will be disregarded as being for her personal requirements. In other cases she will be regarded as entitled to her scale allowance, a third of the difference between her scale allowance and the pension will be allowed for her personal requirements, and the remainder will be taken into account. As regards the pension, I think I am, safe in saying that, subject to the over-riding discretion about need, normally a man will be allowed to keep a third of the pension for his own personal requirements and the remainder will be regarded as the available reserve for the household. I understood from hon. Members opposite that the most convenient course would be if I were to answer the details of the Debate now and reserve any more general remarks about the regulations for the Amendment that is to be moved by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). I hope I have satisfied the House that as far as this Amendment is concerned, they can safely reject it.
    Question put, "That the word 'be' stand part of the Question."
    The House divided: Ayes, 286; Noes. 75.

    Division No. 25.]

    AYES.

    [3.32 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Albery, Irving James

    Goff, Sir Park

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

    Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd. N.)

    Peake, Osbert

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Pearson, William G.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Graves, Marjorle

    Petherick, M.

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Greene, William P. C.

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

    Apsley, Lord

    Grimston, R. V.

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Assheton, Ralph

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Balniel, Lord

    Harbord, Arthur

    Radford, E. A.

    Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th. C.)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

    Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Bernays, Robert

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham

    Blindell, James

    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Borodale, Viscount

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U

    Bossom, A. C.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Howard, Tom Forrest

    Ruggies-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

    Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Hurd, Sir Percy

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Salt, Edward W.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Burnett, John George

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Butler, Richard Austen

    Kirkpatrick, William M.

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Knight, Holford

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

    Carver, Major William H.

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W)

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Levy, Thomas

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Soper, Richard

    Christie, James Archibald

    Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Clayton, Sir Christopher

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Stones, James

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Cooke, Douglas

    Mabane, William

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Cooper, A. Duff

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Copeland, Ida

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)

    Croom, Johnson, R. P.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Cross, R. H.

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Crossley, A. C.

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

    Culverwell, Cyril Tom

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Curry, A. C.

    Magnay, Thomas

    Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Maitland, Adam

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Drewe, Cedric

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Weymouth, Viscount

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    White, Henry Graham

    Eady, George H.

    Miffs Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Milne, Charles

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Elmley, Viscount

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Fleming, Edward Lascelies

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

    Ford, Sir Patrick J.

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Munro, Patrick

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    North, Edward T.

    Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Nunn, William

    George Penny.

    Gledhill, Gilbert

    O'Connor, Terence James

    NOES.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Batey, Joseph

    Cape, Thomas

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Banfield, John William

    Buchanan, George

    Cove, William G.

    Daggar, George

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Paling, Wilfred

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Kirkwood, David

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Thorne, William James

    Dobble, William

    Lawson, John James

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

    Leonard, William

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Lunn, William

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Lianelly)

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

    Mainwaring, William Henry

    Mr. John and Mr. D. Graham.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Milner, Major James

    Division No. 26.]

    AYES.

    [7.37 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Albery, Irving James

    Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Alexander, Sir William

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Macmillan, Maurice Harold

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Magnay, Thomas

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Maitland, Adam

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Fleming, Edward Lascelles

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Ford, Sir Patrick J.

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Mason, Col. Glye K. (Croydon, N.)

    Apsley, Lord

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe

    Galbralth, James Francis Wallace

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    Milne, Charles

    Bailey, Eric Alfred George

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Molson, A. Hugh Eisdale

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Gledhill, Gilbert

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

    Glucksteln, Louis Halle

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Blaker, Sir Reginald

    Goldie, Noel B.

    Morgan, Robert H.

    Blindell, James

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Boothby, Robert John Graham

    Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'tles)

    Borodale, Viscount

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Graves, Marjorle

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Munro, Patrick

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Greene, William P. C.

    Nail, Sir Joseph

    Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

    Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Grigg, Sir Edward

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Bracken, Brendan

    Grimston, R. V.

    North, Edward T.

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Nunn, William

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    O'Connor, Terence James

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt Hon. William G. A.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Buchan, John

    Harbord, Arthur

    Peake, Osbert

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Pearson, William G.

    Bullock, Captain Malcolm

    Hastam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Peat, Charles U.

    Burghley, Lord

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Burnett, John George

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Petherick, M.

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Hepworth, Joseph

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

    Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Carver, Major William H.

    Horobin, Ian M.

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Cassels, James Dale

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Pybus, Sir John

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Radford, E. A.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W)

    Hurd, Sir Percy

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Jennings, Roland

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Christie, James Archibald

    Jesson, Major Thomas E.

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Clayton, Sir Christopher

    Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

    Robinson, John Roland

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Repner, Colonel L.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Kirkpatrick, William M.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Cooke, Douglas

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Copeland, Ida

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Salt, Edward W.

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Craven, Ellis, William

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Levy, Thomas

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Galnsb'ro)

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Scone, Lord

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)

    Selley, Harry R.

    Cross, R. H.

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Crossley, A. C.

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunllffe

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Dickie, John P.

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Donner, P. W.

    Lyons, Abraham Montagu

    Smithers, Sir Waldron

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Mabane, William

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Somerville, Annesley A (Windsor)

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Soper, Richard

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Elmley, Viscount

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

    Wells, Sidney Richard

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Whyte, Jardine Bell

    Spens, William Patrick

    Train, John

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Tree, Ronald

    Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

    Stones, James

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Cammander R. L.

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Templeton, William P.

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Sir George Penny and Lieut.

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    NOES.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Banfield, John William

    Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

    Maxton, James

    Batey, Joseph

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Milner, Major James

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Buchanan, George

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Cape, Thomas

    Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

    Cove, William G.

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)

    Curry, A. C.

    John, William

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Daggar, George

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Thorne, William James

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Kirkwood, David

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    West, F. R.

    Dobble, William

    Lawson, John James

    White, Henry Graham

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

    Leonard, William

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Lunn, William

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Wilmot, John

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carn'v'n)

    McGovern, John

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Mainwaring, William Henry

    Mr. Paling and Mr. D. Graham.

    7.45 p.m.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I beg to move, in line 5, to leave out "approved," and to add instead thereof:
    "disapproved inasmuch as they should be subject to the following modifications, namely:
    In Regulation IV. 1, Part I.,—
    '30s.' should be inserted for '24s.'
    '24s.' should be inserted for '16s.'
    '20s.' should be inserted for '14s.';
    and
    'if under the age of 14 years 5s.' should be substituted for all the words from 'if,' to the end of paragraph (d) and in many other respects they will be inadequate to ensure the maintenance of unemployed persons and their dependants in health and physical efficiency."
    My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) and my hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) and I had no intention, when we put down this Amendment, to cut across my hon. Friends the Members of the official Opposition. We were rather timid about the position, but we thought that, seeing that the Amendment incorporated many of the ideas of my hon. Friends, they
    1230
    might have taken it over as their own Amendment. I am not much concerned as to who moves an Amendment provided the object is achieved. I do not intend to go over the feuds of the days of the Labour Government or to speak of the wrongs and the misfortunes except to say that everyone realises the battle of words which took place on those occasions. My hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston said that he was very anxious to know the future attitude of the Labour movement in relation to these things. I am not keen on raking up the past if I can avoid it. But decent men and women are wondering whether the figures which the Labour party are supporting will represent Labour policy in the future. Are those the figures which men and women will have the right to expect when, after the next election, the Labour party will, I believe, be the Government of the country? Hon. Members may laugh and sneer, but I am convinced that a Labour Government is inevitable, and that no force can keep it back. Some people, looking at the position from different angles, may either

    1231
    deplore or welcome the prospect, but that Labour will come into power I do not think there is any doubt. Are these scales to be a part of the policy of Labour in the future, as they are now that the party is in opposition. There is no doubt that the regulations under the Anomalies Act affected many people. It does not matter how many people were affected, whether they were few or many. An injustice is wrong whether it affects five or 5,000,000. Regulations cannot be defended on the score of numbers.
    For 12 years the House of Commons has debated unemployment insurance. It is difficult to find anything new on this subject as we have hammered at it and have raised it almost week in and week out. For three days we have debated almost every possible point, and it is difficult to find a new point. We are now discussing a Measure which seeks, first of all, to take the care and maintenance of the unemployed outside politics. Whatever else is sought to be accomplished, whether high scales or low scales, the first thing about these regulations is that they are an attempt by the Government to lift the issue of the care of the unemployed out of the political struggle. This is not the first Government who have attempted this sort of thing. Ever since I have been in the House it has been the object of almost every Government. The Blanesburgh Commission was set up, minute evidence was taken, their report received the sanction of this House, and a Bill was passed, and it was thought by the sponsors of that Measure that the putting of unemployment insurance on to a proper basis would mean that party politics would know the subject no longer. When future Governments appointed commissions there was the same idea.
    When dealing with unemployment insurance, I am not much concerned with party play about what has been done in London and what has been done elsewhere. When we discuss what has been done and what has not been done, we have to remember the human beings who are affected. We are not really discussing unemployment insurance or unemployment assistance, but life in every aspect. Do hon. Gentlemen opposite mean to tell me that we can dismiss the lives of 2,000,000 unemployed from party politics? Do they think that 6,000,000
    1232
    people can be taken out of politics and placed outside party warfare? Are they not as much entitled to come to party meetings and ask how their home is to be kept going as a Tory is entitled to ask how his country is to be defended by arms? Have they not as much right to discuss their little but and ben as hon. Members have the right to discuss Imperial policy? They may have their reports and all the commissions they like, but this is the only live issue in British politics to-day for the mass of the people. It is said by some that they cannot be bothered with unemployment insurance and that it is only a patched up and temporary solution and that they want to plan for work. That is the usual sort of thing. During the 12 years I have been here every Government has planned for work, but the unemployed have remained, their numbers sometimes mounting up and sometimes coining down. It is no answer to say that you are planning for work. These people are human, and they demand their needs to be met. The Act is the biggest attempt yet made to try and lift them out of the political arena.
    I want to deal with the proposals from another aspect. I am not going to argue whether the claim of the British Medical Association is right or wrong. I have a liking for doctors in their professional capacity, but when they start to tell me how to live they are no better informed than I am. Although I have a brother a doctor, and, in spite of the regard I have for him, if I wanted to know how to live I should prefer the opinion of my wife or of my mother who know much more about it. I do not accept the standards of the British Medical Association as being other than a contribution to a consideration of the problem. When we have discussed these Bills we have been told that we were not discussing the question of maintaining the unemployed. It was always said that the scales were never regarded as being sufficient to maintain them, and that 24s. was not enough to keep a man and his wife, but was a contribution of the State to help. We have now departed from that position. Hundreds of thousands of these men will never work again. This allowance will be their income or wages, and the only thing they will ever get. It is not a temporary situation. The Government are deter-

    1233
    mining that 24s. a week is to be the wage or income for two adults for the rest of their days. That is what they are doing. This is not a temporary thing to tide them over a certain period. It is a permanent thing. You are creating what is sometimes called in Socialist jargon a definite proletariat, a definite class outside the ranks of the workers. Every unemployed man has been an unemployed worker, but to-day you acre putting large classes of men outside the category of an unemployed worker. They are not in competition with others.
    What is the defence for the difference between standard benefit and this benefit? May I take it that the defence is that one is paid for and the other is not? We have heard that the man who comes out of work will get 26s. for his wife and himself. The 24s. a week man has no resources, because we are talking about him not at the beginning of the industrial depression but 12 years afterwards. What is the justification for the difference to which I have referred? A man comes out of work and is to get 26s., but at the end of 12 months' unemployment, when his resources have gone, he is to get 24s. Is there any justification for that? On what kind of basis is it calculated? If he needs 26s. when he comes out at first, how is it to be justified that he needs only 24s. when he has been out of work 12 months? There is only one reason for this difference of treatment, and that is that the 26s. a week man is a definite unit in the industrial population. He is out of work temporarily and has to be kept fit. He has to be re-equipped to enter employment again, to enter the capitalist army. The 24s. a week man has not to be kept fit. He can do with a lower standard. He is not to enter the industrial battle again.
    Can anyone defend the 24s.? Leaving aside the play about the London County Council and the Labour party, leaving aside the play about the commissioner's reports, let us take the consideration that is before us to-day. The one question to be answered is whether or not 24s. is enough. Who can say that a man and woman can live on 24s. a week, paying their rent and meeting their liabilities? Can it be done? Are there two people, with the best will in the world, clean and industrious, who can do it? I claim no advantage over any soul in this House,
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    but I say that it cannot be done in human decency.
    Has any hon. Member ever sat at an Employment Exchange or on a Poor Law authority, and watched these men come in after two, three and four years' unemployment? You can tell that they are not living. Look at their sunken jaws, look at their teeth, look at every mark on them, and it is hell, not life. That is what happens now, even when the allowance is 26s. The sum of 2s. is to be taken from them. I am not going into the talk about the extra allowance for a child. The fact is that 2s. is being taken from the 26s. That reduction means misery to these people beyond anything contemplated by most of us here. The Government seek to defend themselves. They say: "We are giving £3,000,000 more." The "Daily Herald" talks as if something a little more generous is being given.
    What did the Government spokesman say yesterday? In this House I have often feelings of passion, but I can say truthfully that afterwards I have very seldom had ill-will towards any hon. Member, but yesterday I felt positive hatred of a man, almost for the first time in my life. I have been in more scenes possibly than most men and usually I am much more sorry about them than the man I have attacked, but yesterday when the Solicitor-General spoke, I felt real hatred. I felt like rising from my seat, getting hold of him and almost squeezing the life out of him. I do not know whether any other hon. Members have felt like that, but I felt it yesterday. I watched him in his smug, complacent fashion talking about figures and how the thing was to be done. He gave a little explanation here and there, and I looked at him, a man who perhaps had not been in an Exchange, playing about with human beings as though they were figures on a draughtboard. It was not nice. The Government might have got somebody to do it who knew what these things mean to the people.
    In my callow Parliamentary days I was taken in by every Government, because I believed them. I am now a cynic. I have little belief in anything. I have not much faith even in human life itself, but in my early days I believed in things. I remember particularly the "not-genuinely-seeking-work" provision. I sat with

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    Campbell Stephen, who was the hon. Member for Camlachie at that time, and for a whole day we battled about it. We were told, as the Solicitor-General told us yesterday, how it was to work, and how every objection would be met. The Solicitor-General said: "Surely to goodness you are not in favour of giving benefit to anybody who is not genuine? We only disqualify the non-genuine." In language he was unanswerable. The Government were right in language then, and to-day they are possibly right in language. But I am right in practice. They may play about by telling me how the courts of appeal are going to work. They may tell me that there are to be exemptions. But how are these regulations to be interpreted? What was responsible for the not-genuinely-seeking-work Clause? The boards constituted much the same as these.
    We are told that we must have uniformity, but the boards will interpret things as they want to do. What guarantee is there even about the figures? We have no guarantee. What guarantee is there even about the scales laid down? I remember an Act which was passed in 1924, the Health Insurance Act, when the right hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) occupied a very honourable place on the back benches and fought along with us. The question that played a prominent part in that discussion was the 7s. 6d. allowance. How has that provision worked? Some people talk about the distinguished services of this board. I am under no illusion about that. I pay the board no compliments. I have nothing but contempt for the board. I do not believe that it is a good board. There is one man on the board who was the head of a great Poor Law authority, and when I went to see him to ask him to carry out the law he said: "I am not carrying out the law. Who are you to tell me to carry out the law? I am not carrying it out." It took seven years after the passing of the Act before Mr. Reynard granted us the 7s. 6d. in Glasgow. True, it was the present Government that made him do it.
    We are told that a sum of £3,000,000 more is being granted. Is that true? I do not think that it is true. It is the same kind of argument that the Parliamentary Secretary uses about seasonal
    1236
    workers. It is only half the truth. He says that the seasonal workers get so much benefit out of the fund, but he never tells us that when the seasonal workers go to work there is a saving on the fund. The figure is worked out on a basis which Whitehall alone knows. On that basis they say that £3,000,000 more is to be given. Let us take that statement to be true. What are the facts? Suppose these regulations had not been introduced and the Act had been carried on as it was. Last November, for good or ill, the composition of large numbers of town councils was altered, and the composition of the public assistance committees was altered. They turned from being Tory to Labour. Hull is a notable example, and to its credit the first thing it did was to increase the scales of benefit. If there had been no regulations in force, what would have happened is that with the change in the composition of town councils the Government would have been lucky if they had got off with £6,000,000. To-day, not merely labour town councils but tory town councils, like Liverpool, see the writing on the wall, and are a little more generous. In fact, the Government are not giving us £3,000,000 more. If they had not introduced these regulations, it would have cost them much more than £3,000,000 with the change in the composition of borough councils up and down the country.
    May I be permitted a word on the scales in regard to young folk. I wonder if hon. Members have realised what 14s. a week means to a single woman. I do not want to harrow the feelings of hon. Members, and things may not be so bad, but no one can have read the recent criminal trial at Brighton without a feeling of revulsion. An allowance of 14s. per week cannot keep a woman. In my view, a woman who is unemployed needs much more than a man—That is my experience. I have seen them going to look for work. They have to be well dressed. The two things in which I have noticed the most advance during my life are the care of children and the improvement in women. In my youth they used to go to the mills and factories clad in shawls and bad boots, but to-day you can see them in the Bridgeton division beautifully dressed. You cannot walk through a Glasgow factory without noticing that the women are well dressed and well shod. The

    1237
    shoes must be good, and the coat must be good. This standard of living cannot be maintained on 14s. per week.
    It is proposed to bring in a Bill dealing with overcrowding. What do the present regulations mean? They mean that women, in order to live, will have to herd together. While in one Bill we are seeking to stop overcrowding, with another Measure we are driving them together, like herds of cattle. Overcrowding is not so much a housing problem as it is a problem of income. If their income comes down, they go into one room instead of two. It means one fire instead of two, and one light instead of two; they have to herd together in order to live cheaply. These proposals from every point of view are wrong. The method of approach to the problem is wrong. The Government do not consider how much they can give, but how little they can give. They make mathematical calculations as to how much they shall have when they are working and how much when they are idle. It is said that those who are in work will not stand for a man who is idle getting more than those who are at work. This is a new doctrine. In Glasgow they pay high scales of Poor Law relief, but I have never met anybody in work who grudged them one single penny they got. I have spent possibly more time at the Employment Exchange than most hon. Members, and I have never heard a man at work talk about those who are idle drawing unemployment pay. These regulations are supposed to be the draftsmanship of brains. They say:
    "No applicant shall be assessed at a sum which is equal to or greater than the amount which would ordinarily be available by way of earnings for the support of the household."
    It is a play upon words. You do not know the people who have to administer these things. I know them. In my own division there is a big iron works, the Dickson Works, in which the wages are 35s. per week. I have never met any one in those works who cried out if someone else got more than himself. I have sometimes felt a little annoyed with the Labour movement, but there is at least this to be said for hon. Members of the Labour party. They have fought for the teachers, people with incomes higher than most of my constituents, but my constituents have never grumbled. There was a great display the other day, and
    1238
    we gave a couple £27,000. I have no ambition myself for wealth; my only ambition is to keep my present house and the amount I am getting now. I do not envy the man with millions, as long as I have enough to live upon. I do not envy the rich. And I have never heard working people complain that the Government can find the money for them. Do not think that I am going to discuss Republicanism. That is not my job. But it is £27,000 for two and 24s. for another two. I shall be told that there are reasons. You will find an excuse. There is no genuine excuse that can be found.
    The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) asked who formed the Army. There is no Army apart from that great mass of the population. Who join the Army? Go to Hamilton barracks or to the barracks at Perth. Who are in the Army? Not the sons of the school teacher and the doctor, but the sons of the poor, who have been driven there by a force greater even than conscription—starvation. They are the Army, they are the defenders of your nation. People say, "You spend millions of the nation's money in its defence. Why cannot you spend something also on the human beings of the nation, the men and women and children?" I have never heard it argued that the nation is too poor to do it. There is no crisis to-day. There is money available. We give millions to Clydeside to build a millionaires' ship that will take millionaires across the ocean a day more quickly. We vote millions to people for beet and for tramp shipping. We pour out millions and no one can say that we are poor to-day. Then why are not millions given to the human beings that make up the nation? The only reason is that you do not think our people are as good as your people. It is not that they do not need it. It is not that they are a wasteful class. You think that they are not as good as you.
    I would tear up these regulations; I would scatter them and the men who made them, both in the Government and out of it. It is horrible, it is shocking to think that a Prime Minister who could never have been where he is if he had not climbed to office by attacking the things that we are now attacking, is head of a Government which brings in these regulations. I know that later a clever speech will be made telling us how some

    1239
    one else did it. Let Ministers play with words. All that I know is that in my Division and throughout the country poor people will be made poorer on 7th January. They do not curse the Government; they are too kindly to do that. But they will be annoyed. The Government is to punish them. I hope that the Cabinet, with all my hatred of them, will never be punished in the way that they are punishing the poor.
    Mr. McGOVERN: I beg formally to second the Amendment.
    8.32 p.m.
    Mr. LOFTUS: I feel a great deal of diffidence in speaking after the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). If he will not think it impertinent of me, I will say that he spoke with even more eloquence and force than we habitually expect from him. He said that when these regulations come into force they will increase poverty. Speaking for myself, I confess that since I had the honour of being elected to the House, I have had no moment that gave me greater satisfaction than when I read these regulations for the first time. The senior Member for Dundee (Mr. Dingle Foot) said that naturally Members would judge by the effect of the regulations on their own constituency. Naturally I judge them accordingly. It is true that in my constituency and in my county the scales are low.
    One hon. Gentleman stated yesterday that the scales would be low in consequence of the lack of political energy. I do not think that such an easy explanation suffices. There are many complicated factors in the matter. In my area of East Suffolk the causes of our low scales are partly historical and partly physical, due to the nature of the territory itself. It is an area where the land is either light or very heavy and where the agriculture must be arable and practically the whole country is dependent on agriculture and fishing. Even a few years ago when the grassland farmers of the rest of England were, if not prosperous, at any rate able to carry on, in Suffolk because of the nature of the soil and the impossibility of carrying on grassland farming there, we had a desperate position. The result was that we had the lowest agricultural wages in England, namely, 28s. a week. That figure
    1240
    has now been raised by 2s. Combined with that intense depression in agriculture three or four years ago, when 80 per cent. of our farmers were rapidly losing their capital we have had an equally bad state of affairs in the fishing industry. These are some of the factors which account for the low scales in that area.
    I have gone into the effect of these regulations in my constituency—and I may mention that both before and since my election I frequently communicated with my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health on the many hard cases which arose in connection with these matters. I find that an ordinary family of husband, wife and one child gets 20s. or 20s. 6d. under the existing public assistance scale. It is true that there are certain supplemental items such as boots, extra food and so forth which are generally given under medical orders but the ordinary figure is what I have mentioned. Under the new scale in that case, if the rent is 10s.—which is the normal rent—they will get 30s. 6d. If the rent is 7s. 6d. they will get 28s. as against 20s. 6d. A man, wife and three children to-day would get 24s. 6d.—again with the supplemental items which I have already indicated. Under the new regulations if the rent is 7s. 6d. they will get 34s. and if the rent is 10s. they go up to 37s.
    Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHS: What are their wages now?
    Mr. LOFTUS: If the hon. Member will wait I am coming to that point. Our main industries being agriculture and shipping these men do not come under transitional payments. The figures which I have given are subject to Regulation VI about average earnings—and here is a point of which I gave notice to the Minister. Regulation VI states:
    "No applicant shall be assessed at a sum which is equal to or greater than the amount which would ordinarily be available by way of earnings" etc.
    I particularly want to bring before the Minister the case of the share fisherman. The Solicitor-General yesterday said that he could not deal with particular cases, but this is not a particular case because it affects thousands of men. He also said that short time would not be taken into account but would be ruled out altogether. Again, this is not a case of short time. It is a peculiar case. The

    1241
    share fisherman is paid a kind of advance of 20s. a week and he then shares in the profits of the boat. In an ordinary year he gets at the end of the fishing a sum which varies according to the fortunes of the boat. It might amount to £80. But many of the boats made no profit at all this year or last year. The men, however, have had the advance which I have mentioned as a kind of payment on account, and, therefore, their average earnings have been only 20s. a week for two years. Naturally they would not undertake the hazardous work of fishing—and five men have lost their lives at it within the last few weeks—unless there was a chance of a return to better times. I trust that that point will be dealt with before the close of this discussion.
    There is one other point. As I say, the conditions in my area will be immensely improved, and naturally I am filled with the keenest desire to have that improvement made as soon as possible. I realise that it is practically impossible to bring in these scales until March. I realise the mass of work which is involved, and the point which I would put to the Minister is this. Suppose that in view of these scales now published the county council were to raise their present standard, approximately to the level of these scales—the children's standards in any case—I take it that such action would not meet with any objection from the Ministry of Health. I want to bridge the gap which is represented by the six or seven weeks of January and February. Those are the hardest weeks of the year. The fishermen then will just be coming back from what has been, on the whole, a disastrous fishing, and some additional help during that period would be intensely welcome.
    There were some other matters with which I wished to deal but I gather from certain murmurs I hear that I have already exceeded my allotted time for the day. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] There is one matter to which I shall refer as shortly as possible. The hon. Member for Gorbals said that hundreds of thousands of men who are out of employment to-day are permanently out of employment. I do not agree with that view for two reasons. If the hon. Member means that the chances are that if our civilisation continues to progress, machinery will become more and more
    1242
    efficient and will displace more and more men I would agree, but we have had the examples taken from the Austin Motor Works and elsewhere to prove——
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Does the hon. Member really think that any man of over 57 years of age in an industrial district who is unemployed to-day has a cat's chance of getting a job?
    Mr. LOFTUS: I would agree that labour-saving machinery will become more and more efficient, if our civilisation progresses, if we do not smash it up by a war or by social experiments, or by a disbelief in the value of life itself. But I feel that if we could get the whole productive machinery of the nation at work 90 to 100 per cent., there would be very little unemployment. There is a vast amount of work to be done, but to get the productive machinery of the nation working to anything like full capacity we should have to raise the consumptive power of the nation. It would be out of order to go into that question to-night, but I would say that the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, in that intensely valuable report of his, in one paragraph with which he concluded it, has given a very useful indication of the lines on which we must approach that problem, and in a speech recently made, not in this House, he again gave a still clearer indication of the lines on which the problem must be solved.
    8.46 p.m.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: The hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) will not think me discourteous, I am sure, if I do not follow him in the particular line which he took. I know little or nothing about share fishermen, and I never like to say anything in this House about which I do not at least understand something. I was rather interested, when listening to the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), to hear him make one remark which I think was disproved by the whole of his subsequent remarks. He told the House that he had become a cynic, that he had lost faith in human nature, and then he made what I consider to be one of the most passionate and eloquent speeches on behalf of human nature that it has ever been my privilege to hear. He does himself less than justice when he claims to be a cynic. That would never be a creditable thing to be, and I am certain that nobody will

    1243
    believe it of the hon. Member for Gorbals. There was one thing that I think permeated the whole of his speech, and that was the desire to see that every man, woman, and child in this country should be afforded an adequate standard of living. I cannot imagine anyone in this House challenging that desire, but we do hear different views on what is an adequate standard of living.
    I was rather interested to listen to the Parliamentary Secretary's very clever debating speech, which he began by saying that last week we were discussing what was to happen with regard to the constitution of India for 350,000,000 inhabitants of that great Continent, and then he went on to say that during the last three days we had been discussing a subject equally important. That understates the importance of what we have been discussing in the last few days. The working men and women of this country are far more interested, whether we like it or not, in these regulations than in the Indian question, and I believe that the Division which took place about an hour ago was probably the most important Division that has taken place in this Parliament, so far as the ordinary men and women of this country are concerned. Speaking for myself, I can truthfully say that I have given more serious consideration to these regulations than I have given to any subject which we have previously discussed in this Parliament. I think it is right to say that these scales will have a tremendous influence. One good thing about them is that they have laid down at least that this is a minimum amount to cover existence, and consequently it must be the minimum wage that will have to be paid in this country in the future. I think these scales will have a remarkable influence from that point of view.
    I am not arguing whether or not they are adequate, but I think all Members of the House must have given serious consideration to these scales, and from several points of view. One had to give consideration to the cost involved in these scales. I know that hon. Members above the Gangway will not agree with me when I say that we had to have regard to what happened in 1931. I believe also that there was the consideration of what I call the balance of justice between employed and unemployed, but I think the
    1244
    paramount thing that we had to consider was the giving of adequate maintenance to those unfortunate members of the community who will draw these allowances. I cannot take the attitude of the Labour party. I was interested yesterday to turn up the Debates on the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill which took place in this House in December, 1929, and to compare with the Amendment moved on that occasion, and resisted by the Labour party of that year, the Whips put on to defeat an increase of a woman's allowance from 9s. to 10s. and an increase of a child's allowance from 2s. to 5s. I believe that from that date began that sort of ostracism of that particular section of the Labour party who felt that they really meant what they said when they were addressing public meetings in this country, I cannot help but feel—I do not use these words in any offensive way——
    Major MILNER: Where were the Liberal party then?
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: The Liberal party have not put down the scales which are now on the Order Paper as an Amendment.
    Major MILNER: Did they support the Labour party then?
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: Some did, and some did not. The scale suggested by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan), who made an impassioned and offensive speech, is absolutely in contradiction to the vote he gave in December, 1929, and I want to repeat to the Labour party the question put to them in a very kindly way—more kindly than I anticipated would come from the hon. Member for Gorbals—Are you going at an election to suggest that if you come into power, which I believe you will inevitably do some day, you are prepared to see that these will be the scales that you will give? That kind of scale is very useful as an election stunt, but I believe that the party that seems at the moment to offer the only alternative Government to the present Government ought to remember that the electors will expect that the pledge which they have now given will be redeemed, if they come into power. I want to put that question seriously to them. I do not believe it is the thing to kid the electorate, as we say in Yorkshire. A man who puts his

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    name to this Amendment must take up the attitude that when they are in office they will be carried out, but I have not the slightest doubt that they have not been put down for that purpose. They have been put down for the simple purpose of attracting votes at the next election.
    I hesitated a long time before coming to a decision about my own vote on these regulations. I felt that I was placed in an impossible position. I agree with some of the provisions and not with others, and what can one do in those circumstances? I do not think I could vote for the regulations if I thought that they gave justice to some and created injustice for others. Most of the scales are more generous than those now being paid in Bradford and some are slightly worse, but very few. The scales for a family with a large number of children are slightly worse than they are in Bradford. The Parliamentary Secretary put up the case that if that be an injustice it affects only a few. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] He did not use those words, but he said that we have to deal with the average case. In other words, what is the use of worrying about the abnormal case?
    Mr. SPENS: The Parliamentary Secretary said that an overriding discretion was available to deal with the abnormal rather than with the average case.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: That does not relate to the question of families with a large number of children. In any case, it does not affect my argument, which is that if there be so few cases of families with a large number of children, why was not this scale made adequate? If there be so few families like that, it would have meant a very small increase in cost. I can see no justification for taking off 1s. for a child above three; that is what the scale amounts to. My chief objection is to the adult personal allowances, and I hope that whoever replies for the Government will deal with that question more adequately. I should not be in order in discussing whether we ought to have a means test or not. The fact is that a means test is in existence, and the average decent-minded person does not so much mind the test as the way in which it is administered. The case I have in mind is that of a man and wife with two adult children, a male and a
    1246
    female. The man and wife will get an allowance of 24s., the male 10s., and the female 7s., a total of 41s. Take the case where the adult male member of the household earns £2 a week and the young lady 35s. a week, making a total income of 75s. The regulations give 11s. 8d. to the adult male as his personal allowance, and 9s. 2d. to the young lady, and there is no allowance to the applicant if he is the householder.
    Some cases in Bradford have been brought to my notice of young men and women leaving home because of the harsh administration of the means test. I feel sometimes as if many hon. Members have not the slightest idea how ordinary people live or how ordinary family life is run. In Yorkshire, when an adult reaches 21 he arranges with his mother to pay so much a week for his board and lodgings. Out of the remainder of his wages he purchases his clothes, and he has what he has left for his personal expenses. The same applies to the girl adult. What would be a reasonable amount for a man at home to pay for his board and lodging? I do not think I shall exaggerate it one way or the other if I suggest that £1 per week would be a reasonable amount for him to pay, and 15s. for the girl to pay. In that household, therefore, there would be 35s. a week going to the mother, and out of that she would have to provide rent, clothes for herself and husband, and for any little pleasure they may get, in addition to keeping four adult persons.
    I am not suggesting that the adult members of the family should not be asked to contribute towards the upkeep of their parents if the father is unemployed. The hon. Member for East Newcastle (Sir R. Aske) made a certain suggestion, but I do not think I should be prepared to go quite so far. I think, however, that if you had taken that £1 a week and said to the lad, "If you were in lodgings you would have to pay £1 a week"; if then you had taken the allowance under the regulations of an adult male member which is 10s.—I cannot understand how an adult male member of a Yorkshire family is going to be kept for 10s. or a girl for 7s.—and had taken it from the £1, and said to his mother, "That is the profit which you are making on this boy's food"; if you had taken the 7s. from the 15s. that the

    1247
    girl gives, and said, "You are making a profit of 8s." then the two sums together, 18s., could be deducted from the 24s., and a grant of 6s. a week could be given. That would be performing a greater measure of justice than is done in these regulations. I have always agreed with the means test, and I disagree with some of my friends that it should be a mere personal test. A son and daughter have every duty, when their father is out of work, to contribute towards his maintenance, just as the father has a duty to contribute towards the maintenance of his son and daughter if they are out of work. The son and daughter have also got rights, and surely it is not to be suggested that if an adult male goes to work you are allowing him too much if you allow him to keep £1 out of the £2 of his wages.
    The idea of these regulations is that these people shall be able to keep themselves in such a way that they do not lose their desire and ability for work. If we say to them that £1 is too much as spending money, or for clothes, or for providing for a home, what sociological effect is that going to have? Surely every one in this House desires that a young man should be thrifty enough to provide himself with a respectable home when he takes a young lady to be his wife. The same consideration applies to the girl. Am I to be told that 15s. a week would be too much for a girl? I think the hon. Member for Gorbals was quite correct. Take the changed position of women in the matter of dress. When I was a young fellow the girls used to be seen leaving the textile mills in Yorkshire with baskets in their hands and shawls on their heads. To-day you cannot find a girl with a shawl or a pair of clogs. They look almost as well dressed—in fact, they do look as well dressed—as any teacher or any girl in a profession; and the girls go to Woolworth's and buy bags, instead of the old basket, in which to take their food. There is a wonderful pride among people of that class. How concerned they are to be as well dressed as the next-door neighbour. I suggest that these people have rights which ought to be considered.
    The last point I have to make is that I object to the discrimination shown in these scales between males and females. We listened last night to a very able
    1248
    speech from the hon. Member for West Willesden (Mrs. Tate) and she made that point. In Bradford the allowance for the householder, if an individual, is more in the case of a female than in the case of a male, because there they have always taken the view that the dress allowance needed by a girl or a woman is far greater than that of a man; and I think every married man in this House will agree that that is true. I know that the Undersecretary quoted the British Medical Association scale which allowed more for a man than for a woman. There may be some truth in that if they are all living together, but there is less truth in it when they are living as individuals, and I cannot see why there should be any discrimination between the male and the female. After I had given serious consideration to the scales as I previously mentioned, I came to the conclusion that, although there are some of them for which I would willingly have voted, I am put in the impossible position that I have either got to accept the scale or reject it. I believe that the regulations could have been far more generous, particularly as regards the question of personal allowances.
    9.10 p.m.
    Mr. LEONARD: I will endeavour to confine my remarks to as few minutes as possible, because, like the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) I wish only to show the relationship of the present proposals to the actual facts in my own district. In this case Glasgow. Before I do that may I express regret that the authorities concerned with the administration of this matter were not furnished with adequate details before the Press had them. I am informed by the city council of Glasgow that in the initial stages they had to pick up what information they wanted from the Press, and I feel that they ought to have been given the details as quickly as possible. I have no desire to belittle the efforts that any person may make in order to relieve the anxieties and the hardships which affect so many people in Great Britain, but I do not look upon this effort as one that has given due weight to known factors. I have listened to what has been said about the figures supplied by the British Medical Association and the Ministry of Health, and I agree heartily with the statement of the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan)

    1249
    that other persons might be taken as a guide. He mentioned his mother and wife. If such evidence were regarded as being too prejudiced I would suggest an impartial investigator such as Mr. Seebohm Rowntree, who has been intimately associated with the conditions of working people and has from time to time placed facts before us which make us feel anything but proud of the position of this country. Another thing which has caused me regret is that a scrutiny of these regulations shows that many of the expectations which were created during the Debates on the Unemployment Act have not materialised.
    I would like to deal with the position in Glasgow, which has gone to the trouble of giving us its views on this matter. In the case of a man and wife the regulations provide for an allowance of 24s. a week, and presume that a rent of 7s. 6d. a week has to be paid. In Glasgow at present the allowance is 26s., and that also covers rent, but it has been calculated that 75 per cent. of the able-bodied applicants in Glasgow pay less than 7s. 6d. in rent. Therefore, under the new regulations there will be a direct reduction of 2s. in the allowance to a man and wife, and having regard to the latitude that is allowed under the regulations it is possible, that that sum may be further reduced in view of the lower rents in Glasgow. After a careful survey, the city council of Glasgow and the town clerk say there is a possibility of a man and wife receiving only 23s. as their allowance under these regulations.
    Reference has been made to the family resources in the assessment of means. The savings of the people used to be regarded as money put by, in the main, to provide for their declining years, but by the application of the means test those savings have now to be used to keep together the family, who, although willing to work, are unable to obtain work. The board's attitude in that respect will bear very harshly upon many families in this country. Glasgow's scale compares very favourably with the proposed scale in respect of family resources. Each case is taken on its merits. During the Debates a point has been made with regard to the preparation for marriage and in our opinion sufficient latitude is not allowed for that purpose.
    1250
    The proposal of the board is that the first 5s. of earnings are to be retained in respect of a man and wife. Glasgow went into this matter very carefully. Competent persons who have been trained in assessing the requirements of families such as are affected by the present proposals came to the conclusion that that was a fair assessment of needs. Where not more than three shifts are worked per week, the deductions from the allowance are, for the first shift, one-sixth of the weekly allowance under the scale, for the second and third shifts all amounts in excess of 25 per cent. of earnings, and in spare-time occupations all sums in excess of 33⅓ per cent. of earnings. Where the father of an applicant is a householder and working, 30s. is disregarded, and 50 per cent. over the 30s. is also disregarded. In the case of an adult member of a family with the father unemployed, the first member retains 20s. plus 50 per cent. of anything in excess of 20s., and the second and subsequent adults retain the first 15s. or 50 per cent. of the whole, whichever is the greater.
    A comparison has been supplied to me by the public assistance department showing the difference between the present scale and the proposed scale of the Unemployment Assistance Board. Take a household of father, mother and son where the father is earning 40s. and the son is idle. The personal allowance by the public assistance department is 35s.; that of the board will be 29s. The deduction from the allowance of the idle member is only 5s., but under the proposals of the board 11s. will be deducted. Take another case of father, mother and son where the son is earning 40s. per week and the father is idle. The public assistance department give an allowance of 30s., but the board drop that to 21s. 8d. The deduction from the allowance of the idle member is 10s., but under the board it will be 18s. 4d. The next illustration is that of a family consisting of father, mother and daughter, the daughter earning 25s. and the father idle. The public assistance department give an allowance of 22s. 6d., but the board will only allow 15s. lid. The deduction from the allowance of the idle member is 2s. 6d., but under the board it will be 9s. 1d. Those cases give justification for the attitude which has been adopted in the city of Glasgow, and not only by those

    1251
    who are in the majority upon the corporation. I came to London with one of the truest Tories of the corporation, and she was coming down to interview Members of the Conservative party in this House to ask them to do their very best for those who are protesting at the reduction.
    Let me take the case of the adolescents—and it will be my last illustration. This concerns members of a family who are over 16 years of age. In Glasgow, boys and girls between 16 and 17 receive 5s. 6d.; those between 17 and 18, 8s. Under the new proposals they will all receive 6s. Males and females over 18 receive 10s., but under the new scale that figure will not be reached until they are over 21 years of age. The first male will receive 10s. and the first female 8s. Subsequently males will receive 8s. and females 7s. I am endeavouring to place on record the actual facts in relation to Glasgow, and I think that what I have stated shows quite clearly that we are entitled to protest against the proposals of the board.
    The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. J. Reid) and an hon. Member upon the Liberal benches made certain charges against the Labour Government. They must not forget that when the Labour Government were in office the people who dominated the situation were those who were in the middle of the see-saw, namely, the Liberal party. They cannot get off as easily as that. Let me add a personal appeal to what was said by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), who made a most moving appeal with which I entirely associate myself. We must remember that this is not a meanwhile problem, but that we are legislating for the future. We have to know what the effect will be. The authorities who have been inquiring into the health of the people have performed a useful service, and I wish to quote from an official report which says that in 1933
    "In England and Wales there were about 3,000,000 people who were suffering so badly from some form of neurosis as to need definite treatment. The amount of human suffering was clearly appalling, and the inefficiency caused by such illness was a serious national problem. Three million people are treated for nervous troubles in Great Britain at a cost of £40,000,000
    1252
    annually, and, in spite of this costly treatment, there are 16 suicides in Great Britain every 24 hours."
    It is the case that in this and other countries there has been advance made in the forms of life. It is also true, as one hon. Member has stated, that men and women going to their work are better dressed and that they have cinemas to go to for enjoyment, but they have one thing to-day which they did not have in earlier days, and that is anxiety and worry continually attending upon them. The result is displayed in the facts and figures which I have given. I trust that the matter will not rest where it is proposed to leave it, and that the House will come to a speedy realisation of what the proposals of the board mean before they are put into action.
    9.24 p.m.
    Major MILNER: I rise only to put two questions. I cannot refrain, however, from commenting upon the speech to which we listened a few minutes ago from the hon. Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth). It is clear that he was not in the Parliament of 1929–31. When I put a question to him, upon his raising the point as to why the Labour Government did not put forward higher rates, and asked him what the Liberals did, he said that some voted one way and some another. That was precisely the position. One could never rely in those days, any more than to-day, upon the Liberal party doing anything as a whole. Some always voted one way and some another.
    Mr. HOLDSWORTH: If they did anything else they would cease to be Liberals. The hon. and gallant Member has missed the point that I was making which was, are they going to carry out these schemes when they come into power?
    Major MILNER: The hon. Member is running away. He endeavoured to blame the Labour party for something for which the Liberal party were to blame not only in that but in many other matters. I doubt very much whether my hon. Friend's constituents will think much of his Yorkshire forthrightness in noting that nine-tenths of his speech was of a commendatory character, while in his last few words, in which all of us imagined he was going to say he would vote for the Government, he came down on the other side of the fence, and said he would vote against them.

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    The two matters I want to raise quite shortly are, first, whether the Government do not think it very desirable and essential to give some definition of the word "household." I have just taken considerable trouble to count the number of times the word "household" appears in the regulations, and it totals 15. Yet no definition is given, though the term is used in "household means," "household resources" and "members of a household." One knows that committees often have great difficulty because of the lack of any such definition. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to say that a definition or instruction will be issued to show what the word "household" ought to mean. The second question I want to raise is in regard to the allowance of the first £1 a week of any wounds or disability pension, which, under Part II of the regulations, on page 6, paragraph (I, b), is to be disregarded. On the other hand, in page 7, under paragraph VI, it is stated:
    "No applicant shall be assessed at a sum which is equal to or greater than the amount which would ordinarily be available by way of earnings for the support of the household if he and other members of the household whose needs have been taken into account were following the occupations normally followed by them."
    The point I wish to put is that, suppose a man with a disability of £1, and with a wife and two children and a rent of 7s. 6d. applies for an allowance. Normally the Unemployment Assistance Board would presumably allow the rates in the table totalling 32s. 6d. Will he get that full 32s. 6d., which, with the £1 disability pension, makes a total of £2 12s. 6d., if he is a labourer whose normal earnings are £2 5s.?
    Mr. HUDSON: Certainly.
    Major MILNER: I am very grateful to the hon. Member, because there has been a good deal of confusion in regard to that. It has been the practice in the past, even where the wage has been less than the total amount of the pension and the scale combined, that the full amount is paid. I am quite sure that all concerned will be grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that quite clear.
    9.30 p.m.
    Sir F. FREMANTLE: I am glad to have an opportunity, from the point of view of the medical profession and
    1254
    medical officers of health especially, of saying that despite the partisan views held and given voice to for and against these regulations, there is no question that this is a very great Measure dealing with a very great problem. We are glad to say, particularly from the point of view of the medical officers of health, that a direct attack is being made by a general scheme, which does not simply try to do it, as so often happens, by a vague general solution. The scientific method of setting out an analysis with the different factors provides a machine capable of very great development for the future. There is far more elastic machinery in this than in any other of our social services hitherto. I think it is very remarkable that it should come into force in this year 1934, an exact century after what was considered the greatest reform in its time, the Poor Law Reform Act, 1834, though this will have to undergo, I expect, as long a series of changes as that did.
    Many of those who have addressed us from the opposite side of the House have brought their passions to a white heat on the subject of their sympathies with hard cases with which they are cognisant. I think all of those who have dealt intimately with this class—the distressed class—at one time or another, as doctors have to do also, will echo those feelings as intensely. Many of us would have loved to indulge in the luxury of pure sympathy with the hard cases. But that is not our object in Parliament; it is not the duty of Parliament. We have committed to us the stewardship of national assets in England. We have got to see that Measures which are laid down and undertaken are fair to those who work and pay, as well as those in the unfortunate position of not being able to pay or work. It is not enough to give sympathy to hard cases: cold thought should be given to the question as to where the money is to come from and who pays it. We know that we have got to be businesslike in this world, and the more businesslike these schemes of social reform are the better. They may not get you headlines in the paper the next day, but the fact is you have got to have warm hearts and yet keep cool heads and be businesslike in these proposals.
    I was surprised to hear speeches such as those from the hon. Members for East Fulham (Mr. Wilmot) and Chester-le-

    1255
    Street (Mr. Lawson). They ask for detailed rules to be laid down, though it is recognised that detailed rules would mean a system of rigidity—the worst form of bureaucracy. The elasticity in this scheme may work well or badly, but it is one thing you do want if you are to have an organisation run by officials; otherwise it would become extremely hard and burdensome, and not responsive to the needs of the case. With regard to the question asked yesterday by the hon. Member for West Willesden (Mrs. Tate) and by the hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Janner) as to why the scale is less for a woman than a man, everybody knows that, wherever you have to compare costs as between men and women, you have to allow more for a normal man than for the average woman——
    Mr. JANNER: Would the hon. Gentleman carry that argument a step further, and say how he would deal with the case of a man with dependants, one of whom is a young woman and the other a young man, on the question of their accommodation?
    Sir F. FREMANTLE: There are many other cases, but, taking the question of cost of food alone, unquestionably there is this difference. Constant references have been made to the scale of the British Medical Association and other scales, and the Parliamentary Secretary gave general figures, which are from 5s. to 6s. for a man and from 4s. to 5s. for a woman, according to the particular scale adopted. As regards the other points of difference between men and women, we have to remember that we are not dealing with the particular kind of developments that are usual in working-class families, but are dealing particularly with those who are able-bodied and unemployed, and whose necessary requirements which have to be taken into consideration are not the same as would be the case if they were in full occupation. I do not want to go into the details, but it seems to me that there is reason for this discrimination, certainly as regards food costs.
    As regards growing children, the regulations make a difference, but I think that that is a case where really a little further elaboration is needed. This is one of the most difficult points that was
    1256
    raised by the British Medical Association, and it is one about which the medical officers of health feel very strongly. I was at the meeting of the Council for Health Education to which reference was made by an hon. Member on the Front Bench opposite, and at which Professor Nixon, who was misquoted by an hon. Member opposite, gave a very important and instructive, address on this question of nutrition. It was surprising to learn what a very large amount of food is required by infants in comparison with their weight. In the ordinary way, the actual requirement of an infant is 20 calories per pound of body weight, while the adult requires only 50. The actual amount allowed in the scale for cost of food is 2s. 6d. for the infant, or only about half as much as is provided for the child between 12 and 14, namely 4s. 6d. The growing child's requirement is really heavy, and it is a serious question whether the scale, if it were rigidly followed, would provide a sufficient allowance for the children. As regards cost of food, I do not think it is sufficient, but there are other overhead expenses which do not reach anything like the same amount in the case of a child.
    One cannot generalise on the subject, but the criticism that is generally made by those who have gone into this question from the point of view of the British Medical Association and the medical officers of health is that, while the scale which has been laid down is on the whole a generous scale, and meets the case of a family consisting of a man, his wife and two children, yet, when there are more children that that, it tends to be rather below the standard that is required, according to the British Medical Association. There are, of course, different standards. The hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities spoke specially for the Children's Minimum Committee, who have done such splendid work in this direction, but their report does not mention the scale laid down by the equally, and perhaps more, efficient Advisory Committee on Nutrition appointed by the Minister of Health. The advisory committee's scale was dealt with by the hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Paling), but not adequately. The hon. Member suggested that the Minister had hurriedly appointed that committee

    1257
    after the committee of the British Medical Association had reported, but as a matter of fact the advisory committee was originally appointed in 1931 to deal with the whole question of food and nutrition. It is a standing advisory committee. That committee put forward a lower scale considering that 3,000 calories were enough for a man as compared with the British Association's figure of 3,400. There being this discrepancy, the two committees met, and the result of their conference is shown clearly in the report of the chief medical officer of the Ministry of Health last year. These two bodies of men, who were colleagues, knowing one another well and respecting each other's opinions, discussed the difference between their findings, and decided that the all-round average requirement for the entire population, or for large mixed groups of people, at the present time, was about 3,000 calories per day, as against the British Medical Association's figure of 3,400, and this figure, they said, could be safely employed for the calculation of mass requirements, but would not necessarily be applicable to individuals or single families, whose condition might require separate treatment.
    Miss RATHBONE: Is it not the case that the unemployed household in which the man is actively seeking work is rather in the position contemplated by the scale of the British Medical Association than that contemplated by the advisory committee? Was it not explained at the conference that there was no real difference between them, but that the British Medical Association's scale was more apposite to the unemployed man who was seeking work?
    Sir F. FREMANTLE: I think their actual conclusion was that the advisory committee's figure of 3,000 calories was right for a man who was not engaged in work at the time, and that the British Medical Association's figure of 3,400 was right for those who were actually employed. That is roughly the division between them as it was summed up at the conference. Anyhow, the scale which we are now discussing is within the general requirements for the population. It may need revision in certain directions, especially as regards the children of larger families. The larger families are a small part of the problem, but that is no reason why they should not be dealt
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    with, and I hope we shall hear from the Government spokesmen as regards the possibility or probability of revision of these regulations. It is left vague in Section 52 of the Act. Apparently the board is to report to the Minister from time to time. How soon is the first time going to be? I hope hon. Members will not expect it to be as soon as has been suggested. Three months would be absurd, because there is not time to get settled down, but within a certain time we ought to be able to have some idea as to how the scales are working. We can only agree to these being proper scales with which to begin if we recognise that, in the first place, they are going to be adjusted in accordance with special circumstances and, in the second place, that they will be open to revision. In those conditions it seems a proper experiment to make.
    Another point that the British Medical Association particularly want to have recognised is the provision in the regulations to meet large families in the economic sense of making a reduction for quantity in payment per head. It is reasonable to make some such suggestion. When the family is large there should be a reduction in the allowance per head when the family is living within its income, but, if the family is living on the absolute minimum, there is very little reduction possible. After all, these are cases which, to a large extent, are living a very small margin, so the reduction per head for quantity is a very serious difficulty with them. At the same time, we rest on the assurance that there is to be adjustment in special cases.
    I must ask hon. Members not to rely so very closely upon these actual determinations of food values in calories. At the conference that has been referred to one of the professors who spoke poured cold water on the whole question of calories, and showed how little you could trust to them. We know that a great deal depends on the quality of the food and on digestion and so on, and it is difficult to lay down actual figures. I suspect these standard diets, but it is the only way in which you can arrive at some systematic arrangement for feeding people. But you must recognise how very open to criticism they are, and how very little they meet the realities. We know that the value of food depends very

    1259
    largely on a mysterious essence called vitamins, and lots of these foods would be perfectly useless if they had not a sufficient amount of vitamins. If you have good digestion and fresh food you can get on with a good deal less than the standard as laid down. What you must have all the way through in carrying out these regulations is the human touch. If we are going to have elasticity in administration, we are going to have that human touch. If we have it, all may be well, and I believe all will be well, but it will require to be watched.
    I am not going to mention the question of rent. We all recognise the immense possibilities for good, and also for bad if it is not properly worked out, which lie in laying down a definite standard of rent with all the adaptations which will be possible. What actual co-operation is there going to be between the Board of Education, the Ministry of Health and the Unemployment Assistance Board in the actual working out of these tests? There are various ways in which one Government Department can help another. For instance, if you are really looking about for cases of malnutrition in an early stage you want the medical officers of the Board of Education to advise the officials of the Unemployment Assistance Board of families which seem to them to require assistance. In the same way, are the officials of the Employment Exchanges going to be asked to draw the attention of the board to cases which seem to them to require need? I only make that suggestion as being a later development. If we compare the conditions in this country with those in any other, and the advance made in this country with conditions in the past, we have every reason to feel that we are doing the right thing. We are leading the world in this experiment. We have gone ahead greatly in the last 20 years, and I think we shall go ahead still more on the lines of these regulations.
    9.53 p.m.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: One of the most remarkable features of this Debate has been the extraordinary emptiness of the Government Benches almost throughout the three days. On Monday the Government were reduced to such a pass that they dare not even have a Division, because they had so few people in the House. Anyone who witnessed the
    1260
    excursions and incursions of the Whips about that period of time must have realised that boxing entertainments and cinematograph entertainments for which free tickets had been issued to Members were more attractive than a Debate on this subject.
    Sir F. FREMANTLE: On Monday evening, when a Count was called, the party opposite stayed outside and tried to have the House counted out.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: That is a common practice, in which the hon. Baronet, like everyone else, has indulged, in order to try to get enough Government Members in the House. It is very often the only way that the Opposition can get an audience. The practice that has arisen of people trooping out of the House immedately an Opposition speaker gets up must have been noticed often enough not to need comment. Another remarkable feature of the Debate is that nearly everyone who has spoken has had some criticism to make of these regulations. Even the hon. Baronet, who started off in such flowery terms of praise that one thought nothing would be good enough for the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary, became rather a doubting Thomas when he arrived at the children's allowances. We were glad to hear him, with his great scientific knowledge, tell us at least that all this calories stuff was nonsense, and that we could disregard it, because it really was not reliable and was not worth discussing, and I think that in that we agree with him. An hon. Member below the Gangway said that by far the better people to test this question are the mothers and wives in the working-class houses and not the doctors in Harley Street. That is why we have always insisted on the importance of the maintenance of some measure of democratic control over the administration of schemes such as this one.
    I should like to answer the question which was put by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), very justifiably and very courteously, as regards the intentions of the party to which I belong concerning the figures which are common to his Amendment and the one which was put on the Order Paper by us. These figures are put forward as being the considered figures of the united Labour Movement as part of a programme of Socialism, and that programme will only

    1261
    be possible if the party which attempts to carry it out has a majority in this House, and as far as I am concerned I should be absolutely against any attempt to take on the Government without that majority in the House. So I think that the answer is that those are firm figures to which the party expresses its complete adherence.
    Certain general considerations arise from the result of these regulations to which it is worth drawing the attention of the House. The hon. Baronet the Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) mentioned that we were at the hundredth anniversary of what was called the New Poor Law in 1834. During those 100 years we have learnt to improve the technique of production in quite an unrecognisable manner. If any one who was in that Parliament in 1834 could walk about our streets and factories to-day he would probably die of an apoplectic fit through fright because of the speed and efficiency of the machinery which is used to-day. And yet the tragedy is that now, 100 years later, we are meeting to consider a far worse problem of poverty than that which they were meeting to consider 100 years ago. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Hon. Members say "No," but look at the figures and see whether the numbers we are considering as able-bodied poor to-day are not infinitely in excess of the figures that they were considering in 1834. Of course they are. Hon. Members may say there has been a big growth of population. So there has, but the problem has grown. The enormity of the problem is exampled by the mass of legislation with which this House has had to cope since the War dealing with the problem of unemployment in one way or another, and in spite of all the advance in 100 years of the technique of production, we find ourselves to-day obliged to maintain these millions of people idle while other people want the products that they might be producing. I would like to quote the words which were spoken in this House 100 years ago by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in introducing the Poor Law Bill—words which might well have been spoken from this Box, and almost words spoken from this Box but a few days ago.
    "He confidently anticipated that the Bill would have the effect to restore the British labourer to that degree of independence for
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    which he was once proverbial, and to raise him from the condition of a pauperised slave…. It had been said that poverty ought not to be visited as a crime"—
    I seem to remember that argument in quite recent times.
    "In that sentiment he most entirely agreed; but it was impossible to prevent it as a misfortune."
    Precisely the same attitude is taken by His Majesty's Government to-day, that it is impossible to prevent the misfortune of unemployment. In our view, unemployment, as long as you have the imposition of such things as a means test, is still treated as a crime, and people who are subject to it are segregated in a different class of society in this country, for whom special provisions are made, to whom special rules are applied, whose diet is considered in term of calories, as though they were machines, and as though you were contemplating the tons of coal that a machine, requires to consume to give out so much power. Other portions of the population can dine in the hotels and restaurants in the West End of London, and are not told that they should require only so many calories when they go into a restaurant, and need not have any more than that because it is not good for them.
    As long as the Government insist upon clinging to this outworn economic system, so long, of course, will they be faced with this problem of unemployment. But even admitting that they, at least, must maintain this system, why is it that we are bound to attempt—and I want the hon. Gentleman, if he will, to answer this question—to pension the young able-bodied man and let the old man go on working in his place? Why are we bound to attempt to give these partial educational courses to young people who are thrown out of industry and yet are unable to complete the education of the children? Why cannot we tackle this problem from the two ends, and not from the centre? All that we are doing by these regulations is to set up a pension system for the able-bodied, many in the very prime of life, and many of them young fellows who are anxious to work, while we allow the older portion of the population to linger on in industry when their efficiency is not as great as that of the younger men. Why cannot we pension them off and allow the younger men to take their place in industry? If we

    1263
    were to do that, clearly we should be beginning with a sensible solution of this problem even under capitalism, granting that you must have unemployment, as, of course, you must, within that system.
    There is another extremely painful consideration which arises out of the examination of these regulations, and that is the acknowledgment on the, face of the regulations, that at this period of our industrial history wage levels in this country are below the level of subsistence. There are the safeguards that these regulations, which only purport to provide a bare subsistence level, should not be allowed to compete with wages which do not provide a bare subsistence level. Surely that, in itself, is a sufficient criticism of the society in which such things can take place, that you are forced to admit in your legislation that the full-time wage levels in portions of our industry and agriculture are to be lower than what you calculate is the minimum subsistence level which you have to give to the unemployed man. If that is not so, then let us delete this paragraph from the regulations. It has no meaning. Its operation shows the state of affairs that exists in some of the sweated trades and the agriculture of this country to-day.
    Let me draw attention to one further point which is worth bearing in mind. We have had many discussions upon the rates of pay under the Poor Law and under unemployment regulations in the last two or three years, and hon. Members from the Government side have strenuously resisted the argument that those rates have been such as to bring hundreds and thousands of people below the starvation level. Here, at last, we have a complete admission that all those accusations were justly and truly made. Hon. Member after hon. Member coming from backward areas in this country to-day have given instances of the grossly underestimated amounts which have been distributed by the Poor Law authorities in those areas, amounts which the Minister of Health has never criticised.
    The hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) this evening spoke of a family, a man, his wife and one child in his district where there is a payment of 20s. 6d. a week, of which 10s. a week goes for rent, leaving 10s. 6d. a week for the man, wife and child to live upon. Naturally, the
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    hon. Member is delighted with the proposed scale, and I should be delighted if I were in his place; but what a criticism it is that for three years the Government have allowed that to go on in Lowestoft. It is worth bearing in mind that although these standards are clearly improvements on the standards which we get in such areas as those, they are not-improvements upon the standards in more enlightened areas. In fact, where you have industrial organisations upon which political consciousness has been built you have had the people asserting their democratic rights and forcing the local authorities to give fair payments to those who are so unfortunate as to be able-bodied unemployed. It is just these very people who under these regulations are going to bear the brunt of the suffering.
    We are told by the hon. Member how advisable it is to reduce these things to a level, to even them up. He says that it is so much fairer. I think he used the phrase: "We want to take a mean." A very good description of these regulations. "Mean" is a word which applies to them splendidly. What is the good of telling a man in South Wales who is going to get 5s. or 10s. a week less, that he need not worry about it, because some half-starved person in Lowestoft is going to get 10s. more. You cannot treat human problems by the average. You have to deal with human problems as problems which have to be tackled as individual problems. The right hon. Gentleman seems to think that this is how Socialism deals with them. It is not. When he is in the position of one of the people who have to come under these regulations under a Socialist Government, we shall give him individual treatment.
    The truth is that in these widely flung areas which have been called "distressed" or "depressed" areas—I am not now referring to the Government Front Bench—you will find in almost every case that these proposed standards are very much lower than the standards at present applying. Indeed, it is not only so by comparison with the public assistance standards in those areas. We are entitled to compare them with such things as the unemployment benefit it self. The Parliamentary Secretary stated in the speech which he made at 7.30 tonight that we had been taking, as it were, exceptional tests, abnormal cases. He has not yet nswered the question put

    1265
    to him by the hon. Lady the Member for Willesden, West (Mrs. Tate) whether it is now considered abnormal in this country to have daughters and not sons. He has not yet said whether that is an abnormal case. Let me take a very normal case, that of two people, man and wife. Let me remind him of what the Prime Minister said in a broadcast message:
    "Unemployment benefit is not a living wage. It was never meant to be that."
    If we take the 26s. for a man and wife it is to be reduced under these regulations to 24s. in a normal case. What conceivable justification is there for reducing a figure which is admittedly not a living wage, to use the Prime Minister's own words, by 2s.? The hon. Gentleman says: "But when the first child comes, they get 4s. Then they will be as well off as before." He knows as well as I do that perhaps the most important period in the life of that family is the nine months before the first child is born. We have heard enough about maternal mortality in recent years to know the importance of that period. Anybody who reads the Chief Medical Officer's description of the diet which the young mother should have before the child is born will know how far 24s. will go towards providing that diet. The hon. Gentleman cannot get out of it by saying that that is an exceptional case. It is one of the most ordinary and usual cases, a normal case. How can he justify in that normal case the reduction of 2s. which is brought about by these regulations? That is what he has to justify.
    It is no good his saying, as I think he said, that a family of seven was a large family, an abnormal case. In that he was supported by the hon. and learned Member opposite. Will the hon. Member tell me what he means by an abnormal case? If he looks at the regulations he will find that in a normal case they provide for a number of children up to any number. They actually go so far as to say that when there are more than five members there shall be a reduction of the amount allowed. The hon. and learned Member suggested that they will get more when there is a family of seven, because that is an abnormal case. If I may say so with respect, it is complete nonsense to talk about that as being an abnormal case. It is a normal case for a family of seven, and if you want to have
    1266
    some special circumstances you have to find a family of seven which is unlike other families of seven, because in a normal case you have in your regulations laid it down what you will do with a normal family of seven.
    A great deal has been said by the hon. Member on the question of flexibility. He said that under this scheme it does not really matter what you find here, and that it is just amusing for Parliament to discuss it, because nobody is going to pay attention to it. They are only going to pay attention to the needs, irrespective of these regulations. That is not what this document says, and this document is going to be the law of the land. It is not some loose document sent round as a circular by his Department. This document will have the same force as an Act of Parliament. What is the scheme of these regulations? They deal with two matters, with normal cases and special cases, and lay down procedure for both. There is no variation in a normal case at all, absolutely no variation. The only variation possible in a normal case is in paragraph 3, a case where in arriving at a provisional determination you can say: "This sum does not differ substantially from what the man would get under the scale, and therefore we shall disregard the difference, whether it be more or less." That in itself is an extremely dangerous thing. If these scales were so high that no one could doubt their generosity then a little more or less does not matter, but when they are the bare minimum a little less makes all the difference. In paragraph (3) you have these delightfully vague words:
    "Unless the amount by which they are so less or greater is substantial when considered in relation to all the circumstances of the case."
    That is the only latitude which disregards a small difference. No other latitude is given in paragraph (3). In paragraph (7) you get another latitude:
    "where special circumstances exist."
    That is the non normal case. That does not operate in normal cases at all, and, similarly, when you come to the paragraph upon which the Solicitor-General relied which says:
    "A final concession may in any case where special circumstances exist, be adjusted by way of increase or reduction."

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    In the normal case it is not permitted; and it also says:
    "A final assessment may be increased to provide for needs of an exceptional character by such amount as is reasonable."
    Not in the normal case. There is absolutely nothing in these regulations which entitles anybody in a normal case to do otherwise than what is laid down. Therefore, the dilemma which the hon. and gallant Member for St. Albans tried to raise is a dilemma for the Government not for the Opposition. You are tied down in the normal case, and it is only in special circumstances, or exceptional cases, that you are given any latitude at all. In our view that might conceivably be a perfectly proper thing to do if the scales were right, provided there was some form of democratic control. But when you have regulations like these, which are removed from the control of any local authority or the Government, when one sees the breeding of the animal got by Socialism out of bureaucracy, one begins to doubt whether the C.O.S. will not be the administrators. One or two hon. Members have commented on the fact that these regulations have been laid before the House without the possibility of amendment. That has been justified because it was done in the case of the Anomalies Act. I think it was just as wrong to do it with the Anomalies Act as it is in this case. It is no excuse for a bad system of democratic government that it has existed for a long time.
    Mr. PIKE: You were responsible.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I regret to say that I was not responsible for the constitution of this country. If I had it would not be what it is now. I am delighted that hon. Members realise the necessity for a change, and, speaking seriously on this matter, I should like to take this opporunity of appealing to the Lord President of the Council. Obviously, this form of legislation by Orders in Council which cannot be amended is highly unsatisfactory for everybody. Is it not possible to try an experiment in Parliamentary procedure by which these Orders in Council would come before some regular Committee in the course of drafting, where all parties would have an opportunity of proposing constructive or other Amendments, and then have a final stage before the House when they are passed without
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    Amendment. That would enable the House, without having to spend three days in discussing them, to keep a control over the legislation of Ministers. I believe that if democracy is to be made to work in this country it is absolutely and vitally necessary to develop some new and more efficient means of carrying it through. That, however, is perhaps a little outside the scope of the discussion in which we are engaged.
    If I may, I would draw attention to one or two matters in the regulations themselves. First of all as to the definition of "net earnings." The learned Solicitor-General told us that the word "net" contained the authority to make all the necessary deductions, and the Parliamentary Secretary has told us the sort of classes of deductions that are being made. But this document is the document which the unemployed man has got as his only charter. Surely in those circumstances such matters ought to be mentioned in it at least. How is the unemployed man to know? Of course he has no rights. He cannot claim anything. He cannot sue anyone for anything. He is at the mercy of the board in that sense. How is he to know what his rights are? I think I can say with complete accuracy that there is not an hon. Member who would define what comes into or out of net earnings. Certainly I could not, and I do not think hon. Members as a whole could. They can say what they think may happen, but they cannot say what their rights would be under the expression "net earnings." I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will at least see that there is issued some document which gives an authoritative interpretation which is to be used.
    I think it was in connection with that subject that the Solicitor-General opened a most appalling prospect with regard to these regulations. He said that there would be built up a body of case law under them. What a position for the unemployed man trying to wade his way through a mass of case law to know to what he is entitled at the end of the week. I hope that there is not going to be an attempt to build up a body of case law under these provisions. Let me come to the question of the regulations on page 7, paragraph 5, sub-paragraph (4). It has been suggested that as regards this paragraph—this again was suggested by the learned Solicitor-General—that in classes

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    of people such as, I think it was the black-coated workers, it would be possible to make an extra allowance because special circumstances would exist in their cases. I certainly do not so read this provision. This is in connection with a person's employment, not with a class of persons' employment, and this is dealing with special circumstances in an individual case just as all the other special circumstances apply in individual cases. I suggest that it would be impossible to prove in an area where they are largely black-coated workers and where similar circumstances apply to all—it would be impossible for an applicant to prove that there were special circumstances in connection with his employment because he was a black-coated worker.
    If it is going to be said that this is to be interpreted to mean in the case of classes of people, then I hope too that either a new regulation will be issued making that clear, or that the Minister will make it clear beyond any possibility of doubt to-night that this paragraph is intended to refer to classes of people and not only to individuals. If this only refers to individuals within a class, it does not meet any of the eases which we were told it would meet.
    Then we come to Regulation VI, paragraph (1). This is an entirely new provision in the Poor Law of England. Never before, as far as I know, has there been a provision which has limited the amount of money which can be given in a normal case to the amount of wages which the man would normally earn in his occupation. This is not to be read, as the Solicitor-General suggested, as if the three paragraphs in the proviso followed one after the other in point of time. It is a well known criterion of construction that in such a case these three paragraphs must be read together. You have to make them all effective together. The mere accident that one is printed before the other has nothing to do with it. Therefore the question is, when you read all these together, what is their net effect? It is clear that in the normal case there is an absolute prohibition against exceeding a sum which is equal to or greater than the amount which would ordinarily be available by way of earnings. I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman cannot deny that proposition of construction, taking the normal case, with no special
    1270
    circumstances and no needs of an exceptional character.
    I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what this really means. Take the case of a seasonal worker. Take, for example, the case of a waitress at Blackpool. Suppose that she is out of employment in the autumn for a period of time which brings her under these regulations. What is the amount which would ordinarily be available by way of earnings in her case? Take the common case of a jobbing gardener who does four gardens a week at 7s. a day but is capable of doing six. Are his normal earnings 28s. or 42s.? What is the ceiling up to which, without special circumstances, his allowance can be raised? Take the very common case of the normal agricultural labourer. In almost every case where he has a family of any size—and some of them have families of considerable size—he will find that this is a limitation, because in many places his maximum will be 29s. 11d. Where then does like treatment arise here? You are not going to treat everybody alike. It will depend on what trade the people concerned are in what treatment they will get. If they are in a highly-paid trade—and therefore likely to suffer less, because they may have periods of employment at decent wages—they will get the highest payments since there will be nothing to limit them. But the man who has been in a sweated trade or in agriculture will be limited by this paragraph. Obviously, that is its purpose, because to-day, as everybody knows, within this system, you are bound to create a large labour market or else you find your costs running up dangerously.
    Let me put two more cases which I want the Minister to deal with. We have not to rise at 11 o'clock because the Rule has been suspended. [HON, MEMBERS: "Not for this!"] I would direct attention to paragraph 2 (b) on page 6 dealing with the case of a lodger. As I understand it, the position will be this: Suppose there is a lodger between 18 and 21 years of age with an unemployed family, and that lodger is paying 20s. a week, which we have heard is the ordinary thing. I understand that 4s. of that is to be counted towards the family's income. In other words, unless they are going to starve, under these regulations they must take 4s. of his

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    money to pay for their food, and not for his. He has contracted with them to supply him with 20s. worth of food and accommodation, and is not the result of this that you are forcing those people to fail to supply that which they have promised the lodger to supply, that is, the full value of the food and lodging, and in fact you are taking the money from the lodger, not from the family at all? Surely it has never been the intention of regulations such as these to deprive the lodger of part of his income.
    I have one other question. What is the position where mortgage interest is paid instead of rent? I cannot find any reference at all in this document to mortgage interest being counted as the equivalent of rent, as clearly it ought to be, and, as I read it, there will be no allowance at all for mortgage interest. It will not come into the 7s. 6d. or into any larger sum, and, therefore, a person who has part bought his house will be in a far worse position than a person who has rented his house. I should be glad if the hon. Gentleman would give us his explanation on that point.
    We object to these regulations for the general reasons that I have given, and we believe moreover that, so long as you preserve the present system, you will be obliged to try compromises of this kind. You will try them, and it will depend upon the administration as to how great the hardship will be. The experience of such places as Durham leads us to believe that the hardship will be intense, because the administration will be unsympathetic, and we believe that when these scales are operated in the country, the effect will be to make the workers of this country realise that, so long as they keep the present outworn system, they are bound to continue to suffer as they do to-day.
    10.33 p.m.
    Mr. HUDSON: The hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) has asked me a large number of questions, which I will do my best to answer, and I had perhaps better start in the reverse order. He asked about mortgage interest and said he could not find any mention of it in the regulations. If he will look at the top of page 3, he will see that there is specific provision for mortgage interest, among other things. He asked
    1272
    what was to happen about lodgers who paid 20s. I have yet, and I imagine every hon. Member in this House has yet, to meet the landlady who takes in a lodger for 20s. with the intention of giving him the full 20s. worth of board. Obviously when a man pays 20s. for board and lodging the landlady expects to make something out of him, otherwise she would not take him in. Then the hon. and learned Member asked about net earnings. I think the questions that have been put to me about net earnings in the course of this three days' Debate provide him with the answer. When the board were originally considering the wording of this provision, they were inclined to use the words "customary deductions," but the infinite variety of deductions in the industries of this country made it clear, when we looked into it, that it was better to use some word like "net," which everyone understood, rather than endeavour to use words——
    Mr. LANSBURY: Did the hon. Gentleman help to draft the regulations?
    Mr. HUDSON: No.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I understood the hon. Member to say, "When we were drafting them."
    Mr. HUDSON: I meant the board, but these are our regulations for the moment. They are the Ministry of Labour's regulations until the House passes them, when they become the board's. They were the board's originally, and are now ours.
    Mr. A. BEVAN: We accept that. We will remember that.
    Mr. HUDSON: The hon. and learned Gentleman asked me a question about pensions.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: May I ask a question about earnings? In the City of Glasgow the normal thing is that everybody stops work for a fortnight, when there are no wages. Am I to understand that for that fortnight there will be no income allowed as in that period there can be no normal earnings coming in?
    Mr. HUDSON: If they were not working for that fortnight, there would be sufficient stamps on their cards to entitle them to benefit.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: They will have no wages for those two weeks because the

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    places are shut down. Am I to understand that they cannot get any unemployment allowances because they would thus be getting more than at normal times?
    Mr. HUDSON: That illustrates the point which I made in my earlier speech that the overriding duty of the board is to relieve need. Obviously, there would be the need of the people to exist in those weeks, and it would be the duty of the board, whatever a man's normal earnings, to make an allowance. The hon. and learned Gentleman asked some pertinent questions about the position of normal earnings. Again, that will be ultimately a matter for decision by the Appeal Tribunal in the light of all the local circumstances and customs. He tried to urge that the result of these regulations would be injustice to the farm labourer, because, he said, the allowance of the farm labourer woud come up to the wages stop Clause at an early stage. In the overwhelming majority of cases the farm labourer, when he is out of work, does not pay any rent, so that he will have a 7s. 6d. margin. If he does pay rent, he does not often pay more than 3s., so that he will have a margin of 4s. 6d. If there were a case in an agricultural village where it was obvious that the need of the man was in excess of the wages he would normally get, it would be the duty of the Appeal Tribunal to meet his needs and give him an allowance in excess of the normal agricultural wages.
    The hon. and learned Member also asked about pensions, and asked why we did not try to solve some of the difficulties of unemployment by getting men in the older age group to retire so that the younger men could take their places in industry. The hon. Member for one of the Newcastle Divisions put a question to me on this very subject to-day, and asked if it were possible to form any estimate of the number of persons who would be absorbed into industry if all those over 60 were withdrawn. I replied that it was impossible to form any estimate. The only thing that could be said with any degree of certainty was that the number of younger people who would find jobs would be substantially less than the number of older people withdrawn. Therefore, that is no solution at all. The hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham
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    (Mr. O'Connor) asked me about the review of the regulations. The duty laid on the board by the Act is to keep the whole matter constantly under review, because they have to provide an annual report, which will be published. There will be a further opportunity, when we have to submit Estimates, for hon. Members to criticise the administration.
    One hon. Member asked if we would give a promise to call for a report at the end of three months on the working of these regulations. That would not be practicable, for the simple reason that it will only be on the 1st March that we shall have finished taking over the transitional payments class, and then we take over those who are able-bodied but now in receipt of Poor Law relief; but I have no doubt whatever that we shall be able to arrange at a reasonable date for some form of report to be issued, and certainly the board will naturally keep the whole matter under constant review. The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) suggested that one of the great difficulties in the City of Glasgow of accepting the figure of 24s. for a man and a wife was that the great majority—I think he suggested all—of the recipients of transitional payments were to-day without resources, owing to the very long period they have been out of work. I am sure that he and the House will be relieved to know that one of the most encouraging results of a special inquiry we made to see how these regulations would affect Glasgow was that it showed that in spite of the depression, in spite of the length of time so many persons had been out of work, far more than half the recipients of transitional payments were also possessed of resources.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: May I ask the hon. Gentleman who made the inquiry? Who were the persons who were interviewed? Were they unemployed? Why was not I asked? I think I know something about it. Why not come to me? Why not go to the unemployed? I do not think they have ever been to an unemployed person. What kind of inquiry was it? Why have this secret document?
    Mr. HUDSON: There is no secret document at all. The whole of the information is available at the offices of the Public Assistance Committee in Glasgow, who are investigating the cases week by

    1275
    week and have the information in their case papers. It was only necessary to take a sample inquiry in the offices of the Public Assistance Committee.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: It is not correct.,
    Mr. HUDSON: The hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. Leonard) suggested that the allowances were insufficient, or that great hardship would be caused, because, according to him 75 per cent. of the present recipients of transitional payments in Glasgow paid rents lower than 7s. 6d. I do not know where he got his information, but the information I have from the public assistance committee of Glasgow does not bear that out at all. It may possibly be true of present recipients of Poor Law relief, but only 40 per cent. of the recipients of transitional payments pay rents below 7s. 6d., and 60 per cent. pay 7s. 6d. or over; and the number of people in receipt of transitional payments is six times as great as the number of persons in receipt of Poor Law relief in Glasgow. I think the hon. Member got mixed up between the recipients of Poor Law relief and transitional payments.
    Mr. LEONARD: The document I quoted stated that no special allowance was made for rent in the corporartion scale, but that 75 per cent. of the able-bodied unemployed relieved in Glasgow paid less than 7s. 6d. in rent.
    Mr. HUDSON: It is mixing up transitional payments and Poor Law relief. Perhaps I might deal with the point about earnings which was raised by the hon. Member for St. Rollox. He suggested that because the figure in Glasgow was higher than we suggest, therefore ours was wrong. The Solicitor-General yesterday gave particulars of Scotland. The amount allowed for personal requirements to a man earning 40s. per. week varies from 7s. to 33s.; the amount that is taken for household purposes varies from 10s. to 30s. In the face of those wide discrepancies, allowing a man to get 21s. 8d., I think that on the whole we have struck a fair average. The hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) wanted to know whether the 20s. advance given to fishermen is to be regarded as their normal earnings. I was sorry I was not here to hear the hon. Member, but I gathered
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    that that was his question. The fishermen hope to share in normal times in the proceeds of the catch. In a case like that, 20s. would not be regarded as the normal earnings.
    I think I have dealt with most of the individual questions. One or two general matters have been raised, especially the question of democratic control. The same question was raised during the Debates on the Bill by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) who indulged in rather violent language, if I remember rightly. This is what he said:
    "No public assistance committee, no Member of Parliament, no elected person of any sort will be able to intervene with these paid officials of the Unemployment Assistance Board. Anyone who has had any experience of Poor Law administration knows very well that you can never trust a permanent official to treat the poor decently."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th February, 1934; col. 35, Vol. 286.]
    In the course of some researches that I was carrying out the other day I happened to have to read again the Minority Report of the Poor Law Commission of 1909, which was signed, among other people, by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. I commend that document to hon. Members. They will find it a treasure-house of information. This is what the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues said:
    "If the administration is to be democratic in its nature and if the will of the people is to prevail it is absolutely necessary that the application to individual cases of the rules laid down by the board should be determined evenly, impartially and exactly according to instructions, by a salaried officer appointed for this purpose."
    Mr. LANSBURY: That is quite true, but under democratic control.
    Mr. HUDSON: What better democratic control can we have than the House of Commons? [Interruption.]
    Mr. A. BEVAN: We have not got it.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) made a speech two days ago when he was listened to by the House. The least thing he can do is to allow the Minister to reply.
    Mr. BEVAN: Entirely unnecessary.
    Mr. SPEAKER: Does that remark apply to me?
    Mr. BEVAN: I said that if that remark applied to me, in view of the fact that interjecting in Debate is quite customary, it was quite unnecessary.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member will please withdraw that remark.
    Mr. BEVAN: If the expression that I used reflected on you, Sir, in any sense, I withdraw, but I wish to point out that in the course of this Debate we have been frustrated very often in making legitimate claims on the Government and that we are entitled to take part in the Debate.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not want to pursue the subject. I accept the hon. Member's withdrawal.
    Mr. HUDSON: I think, considering the importance of the discussion that we are carrying on, that the speeches made have on the whole not been provocative, each hon. Member having tried to put his case fairly though some hon. Members have their characteristics. Many hon. Members have referred to the wages stop Clause. The scale suggested in the regulation comes very closely to, and, indeed, in the case of families with numbers of children and high rents, may exceed the lower level of wages in this country. No one standing at this box would say that people prefer idleness to work. I believe that 999 out of 1,000 people are anxious to get work. But it is useless to shut our eyes to the danger you have if workpeople can get as much for being idle as for working, which would inevitably result in the main incentive to work disappearing.
    The right hon. Gentleman for Wakefield (Mr. A. Greenwood) suggested in the Second Reading Debate that this Bill is going to reduce working people to the level of Greek slaves. According to the hon. Member for Gorbals we should run a great risk of doing that. The House will remember that the Commission on Unemployment Insurance examined this question closely and decided that if you were going to promise the people of any country maintenance on a full standard living in return for no work, that could only be done where the State had complete control of industry and was prepared to control not only the industry but also the workers, and decide their level of wages and conditions of work. That, indeed, would be reducing the
    1278
    workpeople of this country to the level of slaves. Whether hon. Members like it or not, the margin that exceeds and should exceed the level of wages over relief is the price paid by British workmen for the right to select their own employer and have a decisive voice in the wages they accept.
    Hon. Members have suggested that the scales under the regulations will kill insurance. There is a risk, but I believe it can be exaggerated. The British working man has a great pride, but he knows that when receiving unemployment benefit he is receiving that for which he has paid and to which he has an inalienable right. We have removed the stigma of the Poor Law from Part II, but we might just as well realise that the allowances paid under Part II come directly out of the Exchequer in return for no previous contribution, and partake of the nature of a discretionary grant. I believe that the British working man would sooner be independent, would sooner retain his initiative and responsibility, and would sooner have something for which he has paid, even though it might be lower than something that he can get as a mere pensioner of the State. The hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) smiles, but in doing so he does less than justice to the working man.
    I would also beg the House to remember that this service which we are discussing to-day cannot be treated in isolation. It is the newest part of the whole scheme of social services of this country. Hon. Members opposite have criticised us because under a capitalist system there are still 2,000,000 people unemployed, and there are still large numbers of people earning but low wages. The State has always recognised its responsibility; it recognises those conditions; but, instead of subsidising in cash the lower wages paid in certain industries, it has preferred to put at the disposal of persons engaged in those industries, and suffering these disabilities, a whole range of social services, the great majority of them free. On the Third Reading of the Bill I reminded the House that the cost of those services has grown from some £30,000,000 in 1900 to £490,000,000 last year. We have seen the rates of unemployment benefit grow from 7s. for a man and nothing for his wife or child in 1911, to 28s. for a man, his wife and one child

    1279
    to-day. We have seen the State contribution increased from 1¾d. in 1911 to 10d. to-day. In the case of Poor Law relief, the difference is even more striking. When the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition wrote that report in 1909, the Poor Law rate for a man, his wife and one child was in the neighbourhood of 8s. 4d. In 1914 a committee was set up under the chairmanship of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Clay Cross (Mr. A. Henderson) and the present Prime Minister were members. That committee laid down a scale, for a man, wife and one child, of 13s. 6d., a figure which is worth to-day something between 18s. and 19s. at present-day prices. Compare that with the figure of 28s. for the same family which is included in these regulations.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I do not want it to go on record that I wrote the minority report. I signed it, but I want to pay tribute to the Webbs, who were its authors.
    Mr. HARTLAND: You never did anything.
    HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw!
    Mr. LANSBURY: I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman who made that remark and had not the courage to repeat it.
    Mr. HARTLAND: I have no hesitation in saying that what I said then I meant. The right hon. Gentleman has been criticising the Government in a perfectly reasonable way, and I think Government supporters are perfectly reasonable in criticising him. All I said was that he has never done anything. If I have been offensive to the House, I shall be most willing to apologise, but I think I have said nothing more than I was entitled to say.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I have no intention of asking the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his opinion. He is entitled to it.
    Mr. HUDSON: I was giving the right hon. Gentleman credit for that very excellent work, which I greatly appreciate. I am going to pay him the compliment of reading two more extracts, if the House will bear with me:
    1280
    "The saddest feature of all is that no small proportion of the 234,000 children whom in the United Kingdom the destitution authority elects to bring up upon outdoor relief—in the course of a year probably as many as 600,000 children—are today, without any interference by those authorities, chronically underfed, insufficiently clothed, badly housed, and, in literally thousands of cases, actually being brought up at the public expense in drunken and dissolute homes."
    I am prepared to admit that that is a correct picture of those days, but, if you compare it with conditions in London, where in a total school population of over 500,000 only 29 children were found to be physically mal-nourished, and you find that in 1933 the number of undernourished children was the lowest on record, I think the criticism of the ex-Solicitor-General is not justified. We have spent the best part of three days in discussing the provision of cash allowances, but the provision of cash allowances is only part of the duty of the board. They were entrusted under the Act with the duty of helping unemployed people to be fit for entry into or return to regular employment. One of their first duties was to get the machinery going to appoint 6,000 officers throughout the country, to set up appeal tribunals and to draft these regulations and the necessary rules. But the most important part of their task still remains to be done. The hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) last night painted the results, as he saw them, of unemployment, not merely poverty but the corroding influence on men's minds and characters of having nothing to do. That most important task still lies before the board, and is one which I believe they are now setting their hands to perform. The House will perhaps allow me two more quotations from the OFFICIAL REPORT. During the debates on the Bill the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) said:
    "The hon. Member said that he was sorry he voted for 3s. because he thinks 3s. is too little and that under Part II more can be given. Hon. Members in all parts of the House have said that under Part II it will be possible to give more. Of course; but there is nothing more improbable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th May, 1934; col. 1565, Vol. 289.]
    The House will observe that in the case of a single child the allowance is not 3s. but 4s. Now a personal quotation. I said on 20th February:

    1281
    "I assume, without giving any guarantee, that when the board comes to draw up its regulations, which will be submitted to the House, it will make provision for assessing the needs of a child of 15 at a different rate from that of the child of two years." The hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) interjected:
    "That is an assumption. What right have you to say that?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th February, 1934; col. 278, Vol. 286.] The board have adopted a sliding-scale ranging from 3s., not to 5s., but to 8s.
    The board have justified our confidence in their first test. It is in the belief that they will continue to justify that confidence in the future that I commend these regulations to this House.
    Question put, "That the word 'approved' stand part of the Question."
    The House divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 47.

    Division No. 27.]

    AYES.

    [11.6 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Knight, Holford

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Cross, R. H.

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Crossley, A. C.

    Leckle, J. A.

    Albery, Irving James

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe

    Apsley, Lord

    Dickie, John P.

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Assheton, Ralph

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'ndsw'th)

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Bailey, Eric Alfred George

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Elmtey, Viscount

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Mabane, William

    Belt, Sir Alfred L.

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Bernays, Robert

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Blaker, Sir Reginald

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Blindell, James

    Fleming, Edward Lascelles

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Bossom, A. C.

    Ford, Sir Patrick J.

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Boulton, W. W.

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Magnay, Thomas

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Gledhill, Gilbert

    Meller, Sir Richard James

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l' d., Hexham)

    Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Goldie, Noel B.

    Milne, Charles

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Buchan, John

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Graves, Marjorle

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Burghley, Lord

    Grimston, R. V.

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Burnett, John George

    Gulnness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Morgan, Robert H.

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Carver, Major William H.

    Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon)

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'tles)

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Harbord, Arthur

    Mulrhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)

    Munro, Patrick

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Nail, Sir Joseph

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Hepworth, Joseph

    O'Donovan, Dr. William James

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Christle, James Archibald

    Horobin, Ian M.

    Peake, Osbert

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Pearson, William G.

    Clayton, Sir Christopher

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Peat, Charles U.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Penny, Sir George

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Petherick, M.

    Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Hurd, Sir Percy

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Radford, E. A.

    Cooke, Douglas

    Jennings, Roland

    Ralkes, Henry V. A. M.

    Copeland, Ida

    Jesson, Major Thomas E.

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

    Ramsay T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

    Rankin, Robert

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Ratcliffe, Arthur

    Read, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Tree, Ronald

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Soper, Richard

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Robinson, John Roland

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

    Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Spens, William Patrick

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Whyte, Jardlne Bell

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Stones, James

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Salt, Edward W.

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

    Scone, Lord

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Selley, Harry R.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Womersley, Sir Waiter

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.)

    Todd, Lt.-Col. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

    and Dr. Morris-Jones.

    NOES.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Mainwaring, William Henry

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Maxton, James

    Banfield, John William

    Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

    Milner, Major James

    Batey, Joseph

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Paling, Wilfred

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Cape, Thomas

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    John, William

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Cove, William G.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Kirkwood, David

    West, F. R.

    Daggar, George

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lawson, John James

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Leonard, William

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Dobbic, William

    Lunn, William

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Mr. McGovern and Mr. Buchanan.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Main Question put.
    The House divided: Ayes, 258; Noes, 61.

    Division No. 28.]

    AYES.

    [11.16 pm.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Burghley, Lord

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Burnett, John George

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Albery, Irving James

    Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

    Dickle, John P.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Carver, Major William H.

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Edmondson, Major Sir James

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Apsley, Lord

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Assheton, Ralph

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Eimley, Viscount

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Balley, Eric Alfred George

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Christle, James Archibald

    Fleming, Edward Lascelles

    Bateman, A. L.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Ford, Sir Patrick J.

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Clayton, Sir Christopher

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Belt, Sir Alfred L.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Bernays, Robert

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Ganzonl, Sir John

    Blindell, James

    Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    Bossom, A. C.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Boulton, W. W.

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Bower, Commander Robert Tatton

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Gledhill, Gilbert

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Cooke, Douglas

    Gluckstein, Louls Halle

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Copeland, Ida

    Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

    Goldie, Noel B.

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Graves, Marjorle

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Grimston, R. V.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Cross, R. H.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen.H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Buchan, John

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon)

    Harbord, Arthur

    Meller, Sir Richard James

    Selley, Harry R.

    Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenn'gt'n)

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Milne, Charles

    Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

    Hepworth, Joseph

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

    Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

    Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.)

    Horobin, Ian M.

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Somervell, Sir Donald

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Morgan, Robert H.

    Soper, Richard

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'tles)

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

    Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Munro, Patrick

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Hurd, Sir Percy

    Nail, Sir Joseph

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Jveagh, Countess of

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Spens, William Patrick

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)

    Jennings, Roland

    O'Donovan, Dr. William James

    Stones, James

    Jesson, Major Thomas E.

    Orr Ewing, I. L.

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

    Peake, Osbert

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Pearson, William G.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

    Peat, Charles U.

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger

    Penny, Sir George

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Leckie, J. A.

    Petherick, M.

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Todd, Lt.-Col. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Radford, E. A.

    Tree, Ronald

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'ndsw'th)

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

    Loftus, Pierce C.

    Rankin, Robert

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Ratcliffe, Arthur

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Read, Arthur C. (Exetar)

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Mabane, William

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Wells, Sidney Richard

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Whyte, Jardine Bell

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Robinson, John Roland

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Wise, Alfred R.

    McLean, Major Sir Alan

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Womersley, Sir Walter

    Magnay, Thomas

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Salt, Edward W.

    Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Scone, Lord

    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward

    and Dr. Morris-Jones.

    NOES.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Mainwaring, William Henry

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Banfield, John William

    Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)

    Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Batey, Joseph

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Maxton, James

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Milner, Major James

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    Buchanan, Georga

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Cape, Thomas

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cove, William G.

    Janner, Barnett

    Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    John, William

    Smith, Tom (Normanton)

    Curry, A. C.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)

    Dagger, George

    Kirkwood, David

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    West, F. R.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lawson, John James

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Davies, Stephen Owen

    Leonard, William

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Dobble, William

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Lianelly)

    Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

    Lunn, William

    Wilmot, John

    Fool, Dingle (Dundee)

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Gardner, Benjamin Walter

    McGovern, John

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. D. Graham and Mr. Paling.

    Bill read the Third time, and passed.

    Resolved,
    "That the draft Unemployment Assistance (Determination of Need and Assessment of Needs) Regulations, 1934, dated the 11th
    1286
    day of December, 1934, made by the Minister of Labour, under the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1934, a copy of which was presented to this House on the said 11th day of December, be approved."

    EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    As amended (in the Standing Committee) considered.

    CLAUSE 2.—(Amendment of S. 3 of 18 and 19 Geo. 5. c. 30.)
    11.25 p.m.
    Sir MURDOCH McKENZIE WOOD: I beg to move in page 2, line 15, after "colleges," to insert "secondary schools."
    I regret that this Bill should again come before the House at an inconvenient time. We finished the Committee stage last week, under the impression that the Bill was likely to reach the Statute Book before Christmas, and I think Members of the Committee would not have been prepared to assent to the rushing of the proceedings at the end of the last sitting had they realised that that object was not to be achieved. This Amendment was omitted by accident when the Bill was going through Committee. There is a widespread opinion that the commission that has been reviewing these educational endowments has not given full value to the need for providing competitive bursaries, particularly at secondary schools. The Under-Secretary of State, in meeting this point on the Second Reading, quoted statistics to show the number of bursaries which the commission had left in being, and I accept the figures which the hon. Gentleman gave. All I can say is that there are some glaring cases in which bursaries have been taken away and those are the cases which have impressed me. I thought there was good reason for giving some additional instruction or direction to the commission to have special regard to this matter. The position is being changed considerably by the Bill. The original Act of 1928 gave certain directions to the commission. They were to pay special regard to three sets of circumstances. The Bill proposes a fourth. Clause 2 provides that there shall be added to Section 3 of the Act, a paragraph directing the commission to pay special regard to
    "the need for continuing the provision from endowments of competitive bursaries at universities, central institutions, training colleges or other educational institutions of a similar character."
    1288
    It is remarkable that the Government should think it necessary to give that direction and should deliberately omit from it the secondary schools. It is a positive direction to have regard to the need for competitive bursaries at those institutions mentioned, but negatively it has also a certain validity as a direction. The deliberate omission of secondary schools from the direction means that the commission will give and must give even less consideration than heretofore to the need for providing competitive bursaries at secondary schools. I do not want to labour this question at this late hour, and I know that certain representations have been made to the Government already, so I hope they will now be able, with sympathy, to consider this Amendment. It would go a long way towards allaying a certain amount of uneasiness among secondary schools and those interested in them, if the Government could accept the Amendment, and I hope they will be able to meet us. The hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State has not met us too well in the consideration of this Bill heretofore.
    11.31 p.m.
    Mr. GEORGE MORRISON: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Attendance at these institutions which are mentioned in the Clause involves for many young people either travelling daily or living away from home in lodgings. But many have to do that in order to attend a secondary school. I know that the local authorities have the power under the 1918 Act to assist qualified people. I have no desire to repeat what I said in the Second Beading Debate, but many people in Scotland still believe that nothing should be done to prevent or to discourage young persons of capacity from earning a bursary or a scholarship to make it possible for them to get the best education that is open to them. The case I have specially in mind is that of a county where there are only one, two, three, or four secondary schools. As things are, it is better nowadays to enter a secondary course in the appropriate school about the ago of 12. It is not a good thing to take young people away from home at that tender age. Also I have no desire to multiply examinations, especially at that age, and in any system of

    1289
    examinations at that age I should lay a good deal of stress on the general school record, more than on anyone examination, but to use the words "competitive bursaries" does not rule out the possibility of employing methods of testing which do not involve cramming, with the attendant evils of which the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) spoke in Committee upstairs. The remedy for that kind of thing is to set a kind of examination where cramming does not pay. I hope the Amendment will be accepted.
    11.34 p.m.
    Mr. BURNETT: The hon. Member for Banff (Sir M. McKenzie Wood) has spoken about the widespread opinion that there is in favour of the Amendment, and the principle which it involves, the principle of the continuance of bursaries at secondary schools, is one that has been supported, not only by secondary school authorities, but also by universities and by the Convention of Royal Burghs. The only reason which has been given against it is the fact that educational grants can be made. After all, an educational grant is different. There are two points which we have to bear in mind. There is no compulsion on the education committees to make these grants, and we cannot tell whether they will make them in corresponding numbers. They will be guided in their policy by the general opinion of members as to how much the county can afford, and not by the amount of educational endowments which have been given in the past. The other point is whether we would get from the educational grants the same material that we got from competitive bursaries. The general opinion, especially at the universities which are the prime authorities in that matter, is that the material has not been so good when the recipients of educational grants have gone to the universities as when they have received competitive bursaries. The important age for these bursaries is when boys and girls are thinking of leaving school and taking up employment; and the temptation of a parent, especially if he is in poor circumstances, is to try to find employment for the child so that the resources of the family can be helped. The parent will not be very willing to acquiesce in an educational grant for the child. It is different if a competitive bursary is won by the child
    1290
    in open competition. There is much more chance in that case of the parent being willing to consent.
    I do not want to mention again the question of the Fordyce bursaries and the amount which Fordyce's Academy is likely to lose in that direction. The school has done great things since these bursaries were left to it, and those who have been trained there and gone on to the university have distinguished themselves in many walks of life. Now it is proposed to take away the bursaries completely. It will be a great loss to the school and the substitute measures as to the provision of tools, travelling expenses, exhibitions and training colleges, of which there are none in Banff, will not make up for the loss of bursaries. That is an example of how important it is to have bursaries in secondary schools, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will seriously consider this Amendment and the importance which is placed upon it by secondary school authorities and by all those interested in education.
    11.38 p.m.
    Lord SCONE: I wish to reinforce the plea of the hon. Member who moved this Amendment and of my hon. Friend the Member for Forth Aberdeen (Mr. Burnett). My reason is that during the time I was a member of the education authority of my county I was a member of the higher education and bursary committee, and therefore had a good deal to do with this subject. At this hour I do not propose to take up time by giving instances, but I can from my personal experience fully endorse what has been said. I hope the Government will see their way to accept the suggestion. By doing so they will relieve a considerable amount of apprehension and anxiety in the minds of many people in Scotland, and they will take a step which will be for the benefit of Scottish education as a whole, not merely in regard to secondary schools, but in regard to the later stages at the universities and training colleges.
    11.40 p.m.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): The mover of the Amendment and the other hon. Members who have spoken have made abundantly clear what it is they want. My hon. Friend the Member for

    1291
    Banff (Sir M. McKenzie Wood), when he said, it was remarkable that in the new provisions we have put into this Bill we did not refer to secondary schools no doubt expressed what was the real feeling in his mind. Hon. Members will see that the new provision in Clause 2 says that the commissioners must pay special regard to
    "the need for continuing the provision from endowments of competitive bursaries at universities, central institutions, training colleges or other educational institutions of a similar character."
    All these are post-school institutions. The special reason why the Clause is confined to post-school bursaries is that the Education Act, 1918, gives a different degree of responsibility to education authorities as regards the provision of secondary education and assistance towards post-school education. Section 6 of the Act of 1918 says:
    "It shall be the duty of every education authority within 12 months after the appointed day to prepare and submit for the approval of the Department—
    (a) a scheme for the adequate provision throughout the education area of the authority of all forms of primary, intermediate and secondary education in day schools (including adequate provision for teaching Gaelic in Gaelic-speaking areas) without payment of fees, and if the authority think fit for the maintenance or support (in addition and without prejudice to such adequate provision as aforesaid) of a limited number of schools where fees are charged in some or all of the classes."
    That means that it is one of the primary duties of education authorities to give this comprehensive opportunity for secondary education. Their duties with regard to post-school education are set out in Section 4 of the same Act. Instead of saying, as in Section 6, "It shall be the duty to prepare a scheme," Section 4 runs:
    "It shall be lawful for an education authority, with a view to securing that no child or young person resident in their education area who is qualified for attendance at an intermediate or secondary school, and in their opinion, formed after consideration of a report from the teachers concerned, shows promise of profiting thereby, shall be debarred therefrom by reason of the expense involved"—
    so far as secondary school facilities are concerned, that is the language—
    "to grant assistance in the case of any such child or young person by payment of
    1292
    travelling expenses, or of fees, or of the cost of residence in a hostel, or of a bursary or maintenance allowance, or any combination of these forms of assistance, or otherwise…. It shall also be lawful for an education authority similarly to assist any duly qualified person resident in their education area to attend a university"
    and so on. The provision of adequate secondary education and an opportunity for making use of it is one of the primary duties of an education authority. When we get to post-school education then their duty, though said to be lawful, is less compulsory on them. That is the first reason why, in drawing the attention of the commissioners to the necessity of retaining competitive bursaries, we have concentrated on that area of education—post-school education—where the responsibility of the authority is slightly less. That is the first reason, and though I agree with much in the observations of the mover and seconder of the Amendment, I must confess that I am most anxious—and the Government are most anxious—that we should retain this distinction as to the bursaries in an area of education where the responsibility of an education authority is slightly less and not confuse that, as we think, rather important issue by dragging in secondary schools, where the responsibility of the education authority is greatest. Bursaries for universities are far more important than those only for secondary schools. This proposal deals with competitive bursaries, but if you mix up secondary school bursaries with post-school bursaries, it does not seem, with sufficient clarity and directness, to direct the attention of the commissioners to that upon which we want their attention fixed.
    I think it will be information to many Members who are interested in this subject that a great many of the secondary school bursaries came into existence through the action of the commission of 1882, which was specially charged with the duty of furthering secondary education, because in 1882 secondary education in Scotland was in a rudimentary stage. They deflected a great deal of money, which had previously been used by the old-fashioned hospitals, to bursaries for secondary schools. What happened to those bursaries which had their origin in the commission of 1882 is extraordinarily

    1293
    interesting. Hon. Members will find it in Section 30 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, which said that bursaries for secondary schools which had their origin in the 1882 commission were to be treated in the following way: Where the revenue is less than £50 it is to be handed over to the education authority to be used for bursaries in accordance with their scheme. The Section goes on:
    "If on the average exceeding fifty pounds but not exceeding one thousand pounds per annum, shall, notwithstanding any provision of the scheme hitherto regulating the number, amount, conditions of tenure, or method of award of the bursaries, be applied by the governing body"
    in accordance with the district bursary scheme of the local authority. That is, in relation to those endowments where the bursary revenue is over £1,000, they remain in the form in which the 1882 commission left them. All the others have already been handed over to the education authorities. I mention it for the reason that Parliament in 1908 clearly felt that when dealing with bursaries for secondary schools it is very much less important in whose keeping they may be and whether they be competitive bursaries or not. I believe that was the right decision.
    We should weaken the force of the new provision which we have put in, and to which I and all the Members of the Government who have spoken on this Bill have said that we attach great importance, because it concentrates the attention of the commission on the need for maintaining competitive bursaries for university and post-school education. We should confuse the issue and not achieve the object which all Members who have studied this subject desire if words be introduced dealing with the entirely alien matter of bursaries not for post-school but for secondary school education. It is on those grounds, after very careful consideration and with an interest in competitive bursaries not in any way inferior to that of Members who have raised the matter, that I urge them not to press the Amendment. The reasons which I have given lie very deep down in the good conduct and development of the highest type of education in Scotland.
    Sir M. McKENZIE WOOD: Would the hon. Gentleman deal with the point
    1294
    which I made as to the negative effects of this Clause?
    Mr. SKELTON: I will. I am sorry I did not actually do so, but by implication I did. It is clear from the present form of the Clause that the matter referred to deals with post-school education. I do not think there is any reflection upon what the commissioners may or may not do with regard to school bursaries. The record I gave of how the commissioners have dealt with school bursaries is surely most satisfactory. Out of £20,000 odd, £19,000 must be used for these bursaries, while £1,000 or so can also be used. Only £180 out of the actual total of £20,900 has been deflected in schemes other than school bursaries. The reason for the deflection is that these endowments are so small that the commissioners decided to apply them to other purposes, none of the trustees in the three endowments involved objecting to the change. I think with that record and the knowledge that various debates have given us, we can say we are conscious of the importance of competitive bursaries.
    Amendment negatived.

    CLAUSE 4.—(Memorandum to be prefixed to scheme submitted to Department.)
    11.52 p.m.
    The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Normand): I beg to move, in page 2, line 31, to leave out from "Where," to "a," in line 35, and to insert:
    "with a view to the re-organisation of any endowment the Commissioners, in pursuance of section eighteen of the Act of 1928, cause to be printed the draft of a scheme, or, in pursuance of section twenty or section twenty-two of the said Act, submit for the approval of the Department a scheme, or amended scheme, they shall prefix to such draft or scheme or amended scheme."
    This is the first of a series of Amendments the purpose of which is to give effect to an undertaking given in the Committee stage. As Clause 4 stands at present the commissioners are bound to include in their explanatory memorandum reasons for any action taken at two stages—at the stage of framing a scheme for presentation to the commissioners, and at the stage when framing the amended scheme. In Committee my right hon. Friend undertook to amend the Clause, so that reasons for action should be included in a memorandum, not only at these two stages,

    1295
    but also at an earlier stage when framing the draft scheme sent to the trustees who hold the endowment.
    11.54 p.m.
    Sir M. McKENZIE WOOD: I am glad the Government have put this Amendment down, for I am sure it is important. I suppose it will be convenient to take the Amendments all together, but I should like the right hon. Member to look at the third Amendment. Should not the Amendment include Section 22, which deals with the amended scheme? I think it will be necessary.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 2, line 40, after the second "the," to insert "draft or scheme or amended."—[The Lord Advocate.]
    11.55 p.m.
    The LORD ADVOCATE: I beg to move, in page 3, line 5, to leave out "Section," and to insert "Sections eighteen and."
    I have considered the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Banff (Sir M. McKenzie Wood), but I do not think it is necessary to carry out his suggestion. The procedure under Section 22 of the Act of 1928 is the procedure under Section 20, and accordingly the Amendment would include the application of the provision to amended schemes in all circumstances.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In page 3, line 7, leave out "a scheme or," and insert "the draft of a scheme or to a scheme or to."
    In line 9, leave out from "part," to the end of the Clause, and insert "thereof."—[The Lord Advocate.]

    CLAUSE 7.—(Citation and construction.)
    11.56 p.m.
    The LORD ADVOCATE: I beg to move, in page 4, line 18, at the end, to add:
    "(2) This Act shall he deemed to have had effect as from the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-five."
    It was hoped that the Bill would have passed through all its stages by the 31st December of this year. The position is that, on the 31st December this year, the powers of the commissioners will expire unless this Bill becomes law, and accordingly it is necessary that it should
    1296
    include a provision such as the one which I am now moving. Otherwise, not only would the commissioners cease to function, but, under the terms of the Act, the Department would take their place and would be the authority for the preparation of schemes. My recollection is that notice was given during the Committee stage that an Amendment of this nature would be necessary.
    I may perhaps explain that, if the Bill had been one for the purpose of continuing the entire Act, and not merely a certain provision of the Act, namely, that as to the powers of the commissioners, the Amendment would have been unnecessary, because there is in an Act of 1808 a general statutory provision that, where a Bill is introduced for the purpose of continuing an Act, if the Act expires before the Bill is passed, the Bill will have the effect of continuing it as from the date on which it expired, unless the terms of the Bill clearly show a contrary intention. But, while that Act of 1808 completely fits the case of a Bill introduced for the purpose of continuing an entire Act, it does not fit the case where only a section or a power contained in the Act is to be continued.
    11.59 p.m.
    Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: Assuming that this Bill does not become law by 1st January next, are we to take it that the commissioners will cease to function, and that, if the Bill becomes an Act later on, it will not reconstitute the commission?
    The LORD ADVOCATE: The effect of the Amendment will be that, after the new Act comes into force, the Commissioners, who otherwise would find themselves moribund, will be able to function as if they had never been threatened with that condition.
    Mr. N. MACLEAN: After 2nd January they will be in a state of suspended animation.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: The Lord Advocate said that if the Bill had not been passed the commissioners would have died. During their decease what will happen to their functions?
    The LORD ADVOCATE: Nothing will happen to their functions during their decease if it is a decease. All that we

    1297
    want to secure is that, in January or some subsequent date not much after, they will be again in operation. That will be secured by this Clause.
    Sir M. McKENZlE WOOD: What will be the position of the commissioners between 1st January and the date upon which the Bill becomes law? Are they to go on functioning as they are doing at present or will they be re-appointed?
    The LORD ADVOCATE: No. Neither the one nor the other. They will enjoy a temporary rest.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    12.2 a.m.
    Mr. N. MACLEAN: I am sure we are grateful to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) for attending this Debate, and he ought to be grateful to us for the lesson we have given him in expedition.
    12.3 a.m.
    Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: I should like to express my congratulations to the Government on their success in piloting the Bill through the House. Undoubtedly some of the acts of the commissioners have aroused a certain amount of alarm, for the most part unjustifiable alarm, but this Measure meets any alarm that may be regarded as legitimate. I congratulate the Government and the Under-Secretary of State, who has taken great personal interest in the subject, on the firmness with which they have withstood the pressure and clamour which have been raging in many parts of Scotland and from many directions and have carried a Bill which reinstates the commissioners in full possession of the effective powers which they have on the
    1298
    whole used very wisely and, I am sure, with fruitful results to Scottish education.
    12.4 a.m.
    Mr. SKELTON: I think this is a very clear example of the fruitful results of careful consideration of a problem which gave great anxiety to the Government. We are particularly obliged both to the hon. Gentleman who led the Opposition in Committee, to my right hon. Friend who has just spoken and to my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. J. Reid). The question is now more fully understood and I think Scotland is satisfied with the new conditions. I would remind those who fear that the commissioners may still have some power of treading on their toes that safety can only be secured by eternal vigilance.

    SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
    Resolved,
    "That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the urban district of Frimley and Camberley, which was presented on the 13th day of November, 1934, be approved."—[Captain, Crookshank.]
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
    It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at Five Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.

UNEMPLOYMENT.
  AGED WORKERS.
  AGED WORKERS.
  DRAFT ASSISTANCE REGULATIONS.
  DRAFT ASSISTANCE REGULATIONS.
TRANSPORT.
  SPEED LIMIT (CONVICTION).
  SPEED LIMIT (CONVICTION).
  PEDESTRIAN CROSSING PLACES.
  PEDESTRIAN CROSSING PLACES.
  APPEAL TRIBUNAL.
  APPEAL TRIBUNAL.
  RIBBON DEVELOPMENT.
  RIBBON DEVELOPMENT.
  ELECTRICITY SUPPLY, MINCHINHAMPTON.
  ELECTRICITY SUPPLY, MINCHINHAMPTON.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  KENYA (DEFENCE FORCE).
  KENYA (DEFENCE FORCE).
  MALAYA (VACCINATION LAW).
  MALAYA (VACCINATION LAW).
  UGANDA (MILITARY TRAINING).
  UGANDA (MILITARY TRAINING).
  AFFORESTATION (SOUTH WALES AREAS).
  AFFORESTATION (SOUTH WALES AREAS).
  INDIA (COTTON IMPORT DUTIES).
  INDIA (COTTON IMPORT DUTIES).
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I beg to move that leave be given to the Lord Ampthill to postpone the Motion standing in his name for this day until after the Motion standing in the name of the Viscount FitzAlan of Derwent. I have put down this Motion with the assent of all parties interested. Your Lordships appreciate that we are sitting a little earlier than usual because of the amount of business that has to be got through, and my noble friend Lord Ampthill is unable to be here at three o'clock, having previously made arrangements to be here at the time he anticipated his Motion would come on, about four o'clock.
Moved, That leave be given to the Lord Ampthill to postpone the Motion standing in his name for this day until after the Motion standing in the name of the Viscount FitzAlan of Derwent.—(Discount Hailsham.)
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, the Opposition were consulted on this and are very much obliged to the Government for their courtesy. We are entirely in agreement with the Motion.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and leave given accordingly.

HAMILTON BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
ABERDEEN CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

ROAD CROSSINGS FOR PEDESTRIANS.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL THE EARL OF KINNOULL rose to draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to the present anomalous position
580
of pedestrian crossings, and to ask what regulations, if any, are to be introduced with regard to pedestrians; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, in view of the fact that there was considerable discussion last night in another place in regard to the matter of pedestrian crossings, I do not intend to take up more than a few moments of your Lordships' time. Unfortunately the OFFICIAL REPORT this morning did not give the speech of the Minister of Transport, and therefore, except from what I have been able to gather from Press reports, I have not been able to read that speech or to know exactly what the Minister said. I must, therefore, ask your Lordships' pardon if in my remarks I cover any ground that the Minister has already been over.
I think an anomalous position has arisen with regard to these crossings. As I understand it—I may be wrong—if a pedestrian is crossing between the studs and he unnecessarily loiters, he can be what is commonly called "pinched"and fined 40s. by a magistrate. On the other hand, if he should be a few yards outside the crossing then, I understand—again, I may be wrong—that he is liable to no fine. That seems to me rather an anomalous position. I should have thought it would have been far better to fine people who do not use the crossings than to fine those who do use them. The next point I want to mention is that the average pedestrian takes very little notice of these crossings. People crossing the road wander about at all sorts of angles. I am not saying that that is very reprehensible when there is little traffic, but in a busy street it is very annoying. While I drive a car myself, I am also a pedestrian and have to cross the road like anyone else; but when one is driving it is annoying to have pedestrians running across the road at all angles when, within a few yards, there is a crossing of which as a motorist I take some notice.
You may also have another very irritating experience when you are driving along a thoroughfare like Oxford Street. If at one of the side roads the light is green you naturally accelerate in order to get over the crossing without delaying other people and also because you are probably in a hurry yourself. Pedestrians, however, take no notice of

581
the lights at all. Exactly the same thing happens when you are held up by a policeman. At the last moment, just as the policeman waves you on, a pedestrian makes a dart for it and you have to stamp on your foot brake in order not to knock him down. Things like these cause very bad feeling between motorists and pedestrians. The motorist gets annoyed and thinks that the pedestrian can jolly well get out of the way of the car and, if not, it serves him right for being knocked down, while the pedestrian has the feeling that the motorist ought to stop for him. I think the Government ought to make quite clear what the regulations really mean.
There may have been cases of pedestrians being fined for loitering on a crossing, but I have not seen any case reported. There is this further point that where, for instance, there are subterranean crossings or perfectly good "Belisha crossings" pedestrians take no notice of them at all. I have many times seen pedestrians cross the road within three or four yards of a crossing. Motorists are equally to blame because often they take no notice of the crossings. The other day I was passing the entrance to this House on my way to Transport House when a couple of people, who, no doubt, had been looking over the Houses of Parliament, started across the "Belisha crossing." I pulled up and waited for them to cross, but to my intense astonishment a motor van came up on my near side and these people had to jump very hurriedly back to the pavement in order to avoid being knocked down. That is the sort of thing that is going on. Most motorists will not pull up, and pedestrians are equally to blame because they take no notice of the crossings.
Another point I want to make is that these crossings are frequently placed in awkward positions. Very often the crossing is placed just in front of an omnibus stop. If a pedestrian wishes to cross when an omnibus is stationary there he has to walk in front of the bonnet of the omnibus. The pedestrian cannot see what traffic there is behind the omnibus and drivers coming up behind the omnibus cannot see if a pedestrian is crossing in front. I noticed an instance of that this morning. A man twice began to cross and twice had to jump back to avoid being knocked down. I think the
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Ministry of Transport in fixing the position of these crossings should have more regard to that point.
There are also other cases of crossings being badly placed. Practically outside where I live at Regent's Park, you have an island refuge in the middle of the road. It is not exactly outside the main entrance to the Underground Station but it is within five or six yards of the entrance. The "Belisha crossing" has been placed no further away from the refuge than the steps of the Throne are from where I am standing now. Would it not have been very much better to have put the crossing where there is this refuge in the roadway? The average pedestrian would far rather cross the road where there is a refuge on which he can stand for a moment, if necessary, than cross at a point five or ten yards away where there is no refuge. Naturally a pedestrian standing in the middle of the road is more nervous of being knocked down than if he is standing on a refuge which no vehicle is likely to run into. I would like to ask the noble Earl who will reply whether the Ministry can consider these two points.
Another example which I might give of a badly placed crossing is to be found at the top of Great Portland Street where the road divides. The crossing has been placed at a point where pedestrians cannot see traffic coming round the corner and motorists cannot see pedestrians. If the "Belisha crossing" were put a few yards down the road both would be able to see each other. Another matter with which I want to deal is the question of the way in which the crossings are marked. I have always thought that the painted lines which were used at first were much better than the steel studs that are now being put down. You could see the painted lines whereas the studs, especially on a wet day, are very difficult to see. They are set at a considerable distance apart and if you cannot see the "Belisha beacon," which is sometimes hidden by an omnibus, it is very difficult to note that there is a crossing. In some places the white line which used to be put down in the middle of the road has been replaced by a strip of metal. You can see that and it also has the advantage of being more flush with the road surface than the stud. I can understand there is difficulty in renewing

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the painted lines, but I think something ought to be done in the matter because motorists cannot see the studs on a wet day or at night.
There have been complaints also—I noticed an article in a local newspaper published in Bromley—that because the studs are above the level of the road they have caused motor cars to skid. I cannot say that I have suffered in that way—my own car, fortunately, does not skid much—but people have complained of that and I would respectfully draw the attention of the noble Earl to that point. But to my mind the question comes down to night driving, because in the day-time people know more or less where these crossings are, but at night it is difficult to see them. On wet nights, when you can see only a very short distance by the aid of the windscreen wiper for the driver, I am quite certain that it is very easy to run over a pedestrian simply because you do not see him at all and you do not know where the crossing is. I understand from the Press to-day that the Minister is considering lighting these beacons. I think that would be a very excellent thing; or if he does not light them could he at any rate see that at these crossings there is sufficient light to enable people to see? I know myself what the difficulty of the motorist is. It is all right in Piccadilly or in Regent Street or at any place where you can see well, but if you get into some of these dark side roads, or roads next to parks—for instance, next to Battersea Park, where there are a lot of "Belisha beacons"—you really cannot see a thing if it is dark.
The street lighting is very bad there. If you switch on your headlights you are very apt to get a driver coming towards you switching his on also, in which case neither of you can see anything at all. If you keep them off you cannot see any pedestrian who is dressed in dark clothes unless he is immediately in front of you. I would suggest lighting the beacons, but really more important still is good lighting at the crossing places. I would also suggest that it is easier for the motorist to see when the light is in the centre of the road, as it is in many places, because with a light on the left-hand side, if it is a wet night and you have only one windscreen wiper, you have the dazzle of the drops on your wind-
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screen to obstruct your view and it is really very difficult to see at all. I hope that the Minister may consider some suggestion which would deal with that matter.
I have nothing further to say except that I hope that the reply which we shall hear from the noble Earl will rather clarify these regulations and tell us what is the actual position of a pedestrian—whether he should wait for the policeman's hand or the traffic lights and let traffic go through, or what is the real position—because I think that no motorists and very few pedestrians to whom I have talked really understand what they should do. Each bows to the other if they are polite, and each crosses in front of the other if they are not polite. I think it would be of benefit to the public generally, to know exactly what the Minister does mean by his regulations. I beg to move.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for the fairness with which he has dealt with this matter. I think everybody is now agreed that pedestrian crossings of some kind are necessary. Parliament confirmed it in the Road Traffic Act of this year; and as I see it, the only issue which now remains is in regard to the construction of these crossings. Upon this particular point experiments are being made by those who are dealing with this matter, and clearly it is only experience that can show us in time what type of crossing is the best suited for the particular purpose which is in view. The acid test in the last resort must clearly be as to whether these crossings will have the effect of lessening the number of accidents upon the roads It is of course much too early to attempt to draw any kind of conclusion from the experiments which have up to now been made, but I have some figures here which I think may be of interest to your Lordships, and which, even if, as I say, one is not justified in drawing any conclusions from them, are at any rate encouraging.
During the quarter ended September 30, 1933, an average of 4.1 persons were killed every day in the Metropolitan Police District. In the corresponding quarter of this year the number was reduced to 3.7, but the point of particular

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interest is that out of the reduction of 43 persons, 42 were pedestrians. In the case of injuries, though the daily average has gone up in the September quarter of this year as compared with the September quarter of last year, the number of pedestrians injured has been actually reduced by 584. I think those are interesting figures, though, as I say, it would be extremely rash to attempt to draw any conclusions from them.
Shortly the case for the yellow beacon can be put in this way. The most careful examinations, tests and investigations have been carried out recently with regard to these crossings, and those who have been conducting the examinations have definitely, and I think everybody will agree rightly, come to the conclusion that the studs which are now being used by themselves under certain conditions are not sufficiently visible, and indeed are very often not visible at all until the vehicle in question is very close upon them. It was therefore clear that something further was necessary in order to draw the attention of motorists to these crossings. The only satisfactory way of marking these crossings, having regard to the limitations of cost, was found to be the placing of these beacons at the various crossing places. It is absolutely necessary for the crossing to be indicated both to motorist and to pedestrian, and no other form of carriageway marking overcomes the difficulties of visibility so well. A good deal of attention has been drawn to these beacons and people have attempted to pour ridicule on them, but I would like to remind the House that these beacons are not entirely new. They have been used in connection with various signs in the Metropolitan area for some considerable time past. I think it was as long ago as 1926 that they were used to mark alternative routes running parallel to Oxford Street, and they have also been used in connection with the indications of one-way streets.
But I do not wish to pursue that matter for the moment, and I should like now if I may to refer to the various points which the noble Earl raised. The first point to which he referred was the anomaly, as he put it, of people being liable to fines for loitering between crossings, whereas they are not liable to fines if they loiter on the carriageway outside these crossings. I really do not think that there is anything very
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anomalous in this if you examine the actual position which obtains. The regulations say that:
"No foot passenger shall remain upon any crossing longer than is necessary for the purpose of passing from one side of the road to the other with reasonable dispatch."
Drivers of vehicles approaching a crossing are required to proceed at such a speed as to be able, if necessary, to stop before reaching the crossing unless they can see that there is no foot passenger on the crossing. Drivers are also required to allow free and uninterrupted passage to any foot passenger who is on a crossing at any point where traffic is not for the time being controlled by a police officer or by light signal, and to give precedence to pedestrians on the crossing.
In view of the great responsibility and onus which is placed upon the drivers of motor vehicles, it would be possible for a pedestrian to hold up the traffic unnecessarily by loitering on a crossing where there is no control, unless it were made an offence for him to do so. As a matter of fact I believe that in certain parts of the Metropolis it was found that children, discovering the power they wielded so far as these crossings were concerned, proceeded to walk on to them and remain there dancing a jig and holding up the traffic. I understand that they could be dealt with by being charged with obstruction, but this is perhaps a rather unwieldy way of dealing with the situation, and it was thought, therefore, that regulations of this kind would be more appropriate. The pedestrians outside these crossings are not given any special protection by regulation. It is perfectly true that the Minister has power, which was given to him under the Road Traffic Act of this year, to make regulations governing the actions of pedestrians in the vicinity of crossings, and it may eventually be found necessary for him to make use of this power and to pass regulations, but the Minister does feel that this should be avoided unless experience definitely shows that it is necessary.
Then the noble Earl referred to the fact that pedestrians take little notice, if any, of the lights and policeman's signals in crowded crossings, such as an Oxford Street crossing. I do not know whether that is true or not. My experience, on the other hand, tells me that

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on the whole they do pay as much attention as they can to the traffic signals and to the police constables who are controlling various crossings, but there undoubtedly is a difficulty in regard to a number of crossings, which, if your Lordships will allow me, I will try very shortly to explain. There are certain crossings controlled by traffic lights where there is what is known as an "all red" period, and in that case the pedestrian is able to make use of these crossings with 100 per cent. security. I mean it stops the traffic completely, and he has a considerable time in which he can cross the road. There are other crossings where, owing to traffic reasons, this is not possible, and it is necessary, that is to say for traffic reasons, to allow vehicles to filter through, and in that particular case the position of the pedestrian is undoubtedly a very difficult one. Quite frankly, we have not been able to find the correct solution of this difficulty up to now, but the matter is being very closely examined and it is hoped that in a comparatively short time we shall be able to find some kind of method by which it will be possible to give more assistance to the pedestrians, and a better lead to pedestrians, than it is possible to do at present, as to when they should cross the road at these particular points.
I pass to another matter. There are the dual points that the noble Earl made—namely, the refusal of motorists to slow up where there are crossings used by pedestrians, and the refusal of pedestrians, on the other hand, to use these crossings and other means that are given to them, such as subways, to get to the other side of the road. This question really is almost entirely a matter of education, and it is bound to take some time until all motorists will conform properly to the regulations as they are laid down. I think, on the whole, both motorists and pedestrians have taken very well to the new regulations, but without a doubt there are a limited number of motorists who do not conform to regulations in the right spirit, and still a certain number of pedestrians who make reckless use of the roads. As I think was stated recently in another place, more active measures are to be taken by way of prosecution to secure a compliance with these regulations. So far as pedestrians are concerned, once again
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that is really a matter of education. I think in time pedestrians will find that they are quite definitely safer upon the crossings than they are upon the rest of the carriageway, and will no doubt use these crossings to an increasing extent. In that connection I may quote these figures. Out of 35 people killed last week in the Metropolitan District 20 were pedestrians, and not a single one of these was killed at a pedestrian crossing. Therefore it is perfectly clear that these crossings do afford security to the pedestrians, and as that truth is realised by the pedestrians so will they use these crossings to an increasing extent.
The noble Earl made some complaint of the positions in which these crossings had been placed, and, I am quite prepared to admit, probably not without some justification. It must be realised, however, that it has been an enormous undertaking to put down these crossings in a comparatively short space of time, and in spite of the enormous amount of care and attention given to individual problems, I do not think it is a matter of surprise that there should be one or two cases where the ideal position has not been found. The consideration of omnibus stops, which the noble Earl particularly mentioned, in relation to pedestrian crossings, is being actively pursued, but some time must elapse before final adjustments can be made, and I want to assure the House that the Minister is always very ready to investigate any representation that may be made to him that a particular crossing place is badly sited, or that any omnibus stop in its vicinity needs alteration.
Then the noble Earl referred to the question of the steel studs, and intimated that he thought it possible that the old white-line crossing might be more suitable than the steel-stud crossing. I am afraid that on this point I disagree with him. Not only is there the question of cost to be taken into account—and in this connection I would like to inform your Lordships that in busy streets it would cost something between £30 and £40 a year to keep these painted line crossings in such a condition as to be of any effect or value, whereas you can institute one of these steel-stud crossings, together with the beacon, for something

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under £10, and that, of course, is permanent—but, apart from that, I think it is generally accepted now that these painted crossings really are liable to disappear altogether in wet weather, and so long as the weather remains wet it is practically impossible to repaint them. We have been in very close contact with Paris on this particular question of studs. Those who have studied this question have expressed certain doubts as to whether we have discovered the best type of stud, and as to whether we have made use of it in the proper way, but as the result of these representations a consignment of studs has been ordered direct from Paris. They are now on their way, and although they are very little different from the studs we use here, it is intended to experiment with them and see whether any better method can be found.
The noble Earl also dealt with the question of lighting the beacons. This is a question which concerns the general lighting of the highways and a good many of our London streets are not at present adequately lighted. But the beacons are designed primarily to attract the notice of drivers, and they should do, I think, without any doubt where the street lighting is adequate. Where it is not adequate, and where the local authority is unable to improve it, the Minister again has indicated his willingness to approve of illuminated beacons which are situated in places where there is not sufficient light to make them reasonably visible at night. It might interest your Lordships to know that up till now no local authority has made an application for this purpose. I think I have dealt with the main points which the noble Earl raised. I would like, in conclusion, to refer to his complaint that the regulations were not clear in the minds of the public. There has been a great deal of publicity, through the Press and by broadcast addresses, to bring home to all classes of road users as simply as possible the effect of the regulations with regard to these pedestrian crossings. Further reiteration will, no doubt, be necessary, and the revised edition of the Highway Code for which, as your Lordships know, we secure a very large circulation indeed, will contain clear instructions on the subject. We hope and believe that, as a result of experience, we shall in due course find the best method of dealing with this difficult problem.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, I must thank the noble Earl for his very full reply. I was pleased to hear some of the things he said. It is perfectly true that the education of both motorist and pedestrian is the only real solution of this question. The studs at present are not very visible, as the noble Earl agrees, and the object of the beacons was to ensure that people should know where these crossings are. But the main trouble to-day is that, in the case of a road where there is a lot of traffic, you cannot see the beacon. If they were placed in the middle of the road, say at the corners of a refuge, that, I think, would be better. I should like the noble Earl, when he confers with the honourable gentleman the Minister of Transport, to bear that in mind. His figures are exceedingly interesting and definitely show that these crossings are doing something to bring down the terrible death rate on the road. I was also particularly pleased to hear that in places where the lighting is not very good the Minister is considering the illumination of the beacons. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

INDIA: PROPOSED TRANSFER OF TANGASSERI.
VISCOUNT FITZALAN OF DERWENT VISCOUNT FITZALAN OF DERWENT had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether their attention has been called to a memorial to the Viceroy of India from the inhabitants of Tangasseri now in the Trimwelly district of Madras against a rumoured proposal that they should be handed over to the neighbouring State of Travancore; whether the 2,000 inhabitants of Tangasseri are not almost entirely members of the Roman Catholic Church; whether for about 500 years they have not been under the rule of European nations and for the last 140 years enjoyed the protection of the British Government; whether there is any precedent for the British Government handing over a purely Christian community against the wishes of the people to a Hindu State, and what, if the alleged intention of so doing is true, is the motive inspiring such a proposal; and to move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I am afraid your Lordships may feel that you are suffering from rather a surfeit

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of India, but I must explain that my Question was put down for a much earlier date, and I postponed it to suit the convenience of the House. I have made the Question very full. I think it covers most of the points. Tangasseri is a romantic spot, I understand, and appeals to our imagination. It covers only ninety-nine acres. It is absolutely and entirely British territory, and though I have in my Question put the population as 2,000, I understand from the statement made in the House of Commons by the Under-Secretary of State for India that it is, to be exact, 1,733. I take it that there have undoubtedly been intrigues going on between certain Tranvancoreans and Tangasserians with regard to this matter, and no doubt it originates with questions connected with trade. According to the Under-Secretary of State, this question has been cropping up at different periods ever since 1860. He alludes to 1860, 1882, 1884 and 1897, so it is an old story.
I do not want to suggest for a moment that the present position is due to the situation of the whole Indian question. I have no doubt, from what I have been told, that the administrative difficulties of managing this small isolated tract of land are rather considerable, and our nearest government post is something like seventy odd miles from this territory. But I want also to point out, à propos of an expression used by the Under-Secretary to the effect that he did not think the Christians in Tangasseri had much grievance because there were several of their fellow-Christians in Travancore, that that is no doubt true, in fact, I am sure it is, for this very reason. According to the evidence I have received, there is no doubt whatever that Christians in Travancore are losing their jobs, but I do not say that they have been persecuted because of their religion. The reason, I understand, is this. As we all know, there is in India a great deal of nepotism and a great deal of employment given because of caste. As I understand, in the last year or two there have been in Travancore changes in caste management and in some of the industries there, with the result that the Christians have been turned out wholesale. But I repeat that that is not on account of their religion.
I have no evidence whatever that there has been any persecution of Christians in Travancore on account of their religion, and I do not know to what denomination these Christians belong. I have no evidence to show that they belong to my own denomination. But in this little place, Tangasseri, they apparently all belong to the Catholic religion. I was very relieved by the statement made by the Under-Secretary in another place that he was quite certain that we might rest assured that the people in this small territory would not be handed over to another State against their will. I hope my noble friend below me (Lord Halifax) will re-echo that statement. I should like to quote words which, I am sure, are most familiar to him, and no doubt to your Lordships—words taken from King Edward's Proclamation of 1908:
"No man amongst My subjects has been favoured, molested, or disquieted by reason of his religious belief or worship."
Those words might be interpreted as applying to the past, but I submit they apply also to the present and to the future for all time. It is quite impossible to believe that any Government could hand over this community, no matter how small the population may be, no matter what their religious denomination may be, to a Hindu State if they object.
I hope that the Papers which the noble Viscount will be able to lay will give us some explanation of the history of this question, and that he himself will give an absolute confirmation of the forecast issued by the Under-Secretary in another place. The only criticism I have to make at the moment about this question is, to use a term which I think is rather familiar to my noble friend at this moment— "dilatory"—I think the Government have been very dilatory in obtaining information on this Question. They have had plenty of time; my own Question has been down long enough. Madras is a long way from Simla and from Delhi, but I really think a little more expedition might have been shown in obtaining information on the matter. I beg to move for Papers.
LORD AMPTHILL: My Lords, I hope you will forgive me for intervening for a moment on a trivial matter. It is only a matter of a misprint. It is stated on the Paper that Tangasseri is in the

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"Trimwelly" district of Madras. There is no such district in the Madras Presidency. It is undoubtedly the Tinevelly district which is referred to. I think the first five letters should be "Tinev" instead of "Trimw." I think it is a pity to have a misprint of this kind included in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
VISCOUNT FITZALAN OF DERWENT: I am obliged to the noble Lord. I have no doubt it is my mistake.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, for correcting the printer's error. As we have had experience in another place, such errors sometimes exercise a deleterious influence upon the proceedings of Parliament. As a matter of fact, while correcting the printer's error, the noble Lord said the first five letters should be "Tinev." Should I not be right if I corrected him and said that the first five letters are "Tinne"?
LORD AMPTHTLL: I accept the noble Viscount's correction.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I do not intend to move the adjournment.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: I am extremely glad that the noble Lord opposite has relieved any apprehension I might have otherwise entertained. That point being settled, I am at liberty to turn to the point of greater substance that my noble friend has introduced to our notice. He has introduced it, as always, with the lucidity and conciseness that your Lordships have learned to expect. He began by saying that this place, Tangasseri, is one of considerable romance. It is indeed a place that perhaps exhibits as well as any other the quality of that mosaic which is India, that is responsible for a great many of the difficulties that your Lordships have had in mind during the four days' debate on Indian Constitutional Reform. It is quite true that it is only ninety-nine acres in size, but both by its history and by its present geographical position it has an interest all its own. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to tell you, if you do not already know it, that it was formerly a Dutch and Portuguese settlement, and was acquired by the East India Company from the Dutch at the end of the
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eighteenth century when Cochin was captured, and has therefore been a British East-Indian territory since 1795.
The noble Viscount asks whether His Majesty's Government are aware of the Memorial that has been submitted to the Viceroy by the inhabitants of this place against the rumoured proposal that they should be handed over. The answer is that we are aware of that Memorial being submitted. The next part of the Question is whether the population is almost entirely composed of members of the Roman Catholic Church. I am not able to give him precise figures, but I am inclined to think, on the information available, that the majority of them are members of the Orthodox Syrian Church, but there are a great many of his co-religionists among them, and he is quite correct in saying that the population is almost completely Christian.
The difficulty is that to which he has quite fairly called attention—namely, that this little enclave is now administered as part of the Tinnevelly district, but the headquarters of that district are some seventy miles away as the crow flies, across the intervening territory of the State of Travancore. The present administrative arrangement is that the State of Travancore, by a system of annual leases, controls the manufacture, import, and sale of liquor, opium, and, I think, salt, and handles the Customs, but the civil and criminal jurisdiction of the place remains in British hands. The quite evident inconvenience of that arrangement has given rise, as the noble Viscount told us, to various proposals in past years for the cession of this enclave to the State of Travancore. I was rather sorry to hear the noble Viscount suggest that the emergence of this question again was due to intrigues going on because, if that is so, intrigues have been going on for the last three-quarters of a century.
VISCOUNT FITZALAN OF DERWENT: That is exactly what I meant. I did not mean that there was anything particularly novel in the situation. I did not mean intrigues by the Government but by the two populations.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: As to that have no information, and I was only concerned to make it plain, what indeed I hope was not in the noble Viscount's mind, that there was nothing in any way

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peculiar about the raising of the question at the present time which had not been implicit in its emergence at all these various intervals to which he alluded during the last seventy-five years.
VISCOUNT FITZALAN OF DERIATENT: I specifically said so.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: I accept, of course, entirely everything the noble Viscount says. When the question was raised on one of these occasions—in 1882, I think—the Secretary of State used these words, which are perhaps worth quoting, in a Despatch to the Government of India:
"The inhabitants of Tangasseri object strongly to the proposed transfer, and although your Government have made inquiries and have apparently satisfied yourselves that they would suffer no substantial hardship thereby, I am unable, in the fare of their distinct opposition, to assent to the measure proposed."
In 1927 the matter was raised again, and was very strongly argued, but on that occasion again the Government of Madras did not feel able to give any support to the request of the Government of Travancore, having regard to the same considerations that had influenced the Secretary of State—namely, the strong objections likely to be felt by the inhabitants. That, therefore, has been in the past the position of the Government, although, I think, it would be true to say that the Government of India, certainly when I was there and the question was raised in 1927, was inclined to agree that there was a very strong case on every administration ground for the transfer, and we are inclined to think that the apprehensions of the inhabitants might in fact be groundless, having regard to the fact that the noble Viscount mentioned, to which perhaps I should attach greater importance than he did, of the very large percentage of Christians among the total population of the State of Travancore. I believe I am right in saying that the Christian population totals something like a quarter of the total Indian Christian population in India.
The proposal was renewed by the State of Travancore this year. I think my noble friend Lord Hastings, when he was in India on the States Inquiry Committee, was made aware that the State of Travancore intended so to renew it, and it has been renewed on substantially the
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same grounds as have been prayed in support of it on all these previous occasions. The Government of India have not, as yet, had the views of the Government of Madras upon it, and I do not think it is entirely reasonable on the part of my noble friend to reproach His Majesty's Government here of being dilatory when I am sure he would be the first to recognise that it is quite impossible for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for India to express an opinion on a matter of this kind without having before him the considered views both of the Government of Madras and the Government of India. Therefore it is not possible for me to answer the last Question of the noble Lord's on the Order Paper without further knowledge.
As far as I am aware there are no precedents for the British Government handing over a purely Christian community to a Hindu State against the wishes of the people concerned, and I can only repeat to him quite definitely what was said by the Under-Secretary to the India Office in the House of Commons, that although, as I have tried to make plain I think, there is a very strong case indeed on grounds of administrative convenience for the cession, and although I personally hope, from my own knowledge of the question, that on further examination the inhabitants may not feel it incumbent upon them to maintain their attitude of opposition, yet, if that opposition is ineradicable, I am quite sure my noble friend may rest content that neither this Government nor any other would wish to insist upon any transfer being made.
VISCOUNT FITZALAN OF DERWENT: My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend for the answer he has given. I want to make it quite clear—I do not think he understood; I dare say it is my fault—that I made no suggestion or insinuation whatever that the present suggestion or attempt to hand this small population over to a Hindu State was due to the present controversy about India. I thought I had made that quite clear. At the same time I want to repeat what I said, that in Travancore itself not only great dissatisfaction but great unhappiness and discomfort are being caused to the Christians by the fact that they are losing their posts in some of the big public works in that territory. My noble

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friend has assured me that in no circumstances whatever will this small population be handed over if it is quite clear that it is against their will. I admit what he said, from what I have been told and have learned, that the administrative difficulties are considerable, and I quite understand that from the administrative point of view it might be a popular move to hand these people over, but it would be an absolutely impossible thing to do, I repeat, against their wishes, and I am very glad to learn from my noble friend that that is his opinion too.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: My Lords, with the leave of your Lordships may I say in one word to my noble friend that if appeared to misinterpret anything he had said I would ask him to allow me to express to him my regrets and apologies?
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

ARMY RESERVE.
LORD AMPTHILL LORD AMPTHILL had given Notice that he would call attention to the fact that there is no adequate Reserve for the Regular Army seeing that the Militia is no longer in being and that the Territorial Army may not be used for drafting; ask His Majesty's Government whether the Militia will be reconstituted in the event of war or whether it is intended to introduce some new system of providing the Army Reserve which will be required before the Reserve Army is sent abroad; and move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to explain the Motion that stands in my name. It is a long time since I have asked your Lordships to listen to a Motion of mine and I make no apology for doing so now. It was against all my personal inclinations—the inclinations of a man who is advanced in years—to place my Motion on the Order Paper and thus commit myself to a certain amount of unwelcome effort. But I am in the position of one who has chanced to observe signs of some danger and has to choose between passing on or going out of his way to give warning to any persons who may be concerned. There was a time long years ago when I took part in many a Militia debate in this House, but little did I think that it would ever fall to my lot again to raise the question of the
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Militia. The time, however, is opportune for calling attention to the existence, though merely on paper, of that Militia which is older than the Regular Army and used to be known by the significant names of the People's Army or the old Constitutional Force.
Strangely enough the Militia has again and again been forgotten during the course of our history until a national emergency forced our statesmen to realise the existence of the force. During the South African War it was left to the Sovereign, to Her Majesty Queen Victoria herself, to remind her Ministers that the Militia was there, and the result of that timely reminder was that the Militia was embodied and sixty-one infantry battalions were sent to the front while a further nine battalions were sent overseas to serve in Egypt and elsewhere. Those momentous facts, however, were forgotten by the late Lord Haldane on the last occasion when he took part in a Militia debate in this House and it fell to the lot of my noble friends, Lord Salisbury and Lord Selborne, to tell him that they themselves had taken their battalions abroad. I am very sorry that both my noble friends are obliged to be absent on acount of ill-health as they have assured me that I have their full support.
I say that the time is opportune for again calling the Militia to remembrance and I say so because during the past six months we have been obliged to reconsider the whole question of national defence. The policy of universal disarmament which we strove to get adopted by setting an example fraught with grave danger to ourselves has definitely failed for the time being. Europe has been rearming while we have been disarming and there is now general agreement in this country that we must raise all our armed forces to a more adequate strength. We have also had occasion to recognise that nothing except a state of military preparedness can give us an effective voice in the counsels of Europe. The Navy and the Air Force have received some attention in Parliament and also on the public platform, but not so the Army. The Army, however, is no less important than the other two branches of the forces of the Crown. Ships and aircraft cannot go everywhere but there are many places on land to which the British soldier might have to

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go. So long as we maintain an Army at all we must envisage the possibility of that Army having to go to war. Our Army, therefore, must be ready to take the field at any moment and what is more, it must be ready to keep the field. An Army which cannot last out for even a short campaign is, of course, not fit to take the field. Every Army in the field requires constant reinforcement after the first few weeks. Even if there are no casualties from actual fighting there is always a great drain caused by sickness, a drain which is usually greater than that caused by killing and wounding. That means that the Army must have a Reserve over and above those men who have not completed their engagements and had to rejoin on mobilisation.
An Army without such a Reserve is not an effective instrument of war and our Army is at present in that position—that very dangerous position. We have a Reserve Army but not an Army Reserve and the nation has been lulled into a false sense of security because the general public cannot discern the immense difference which is connoted by the transposition of those two words. The Reserve Army is, of course, the Territorial Army which cannot be used for furnishing drafts to the Regular Army and is, therefore, not an Army Reserve. The only possible Army Reserve under our present system is the Militia which has been reduced to a state of suspended animation. The Militia, in short, only exists on paper. My object to-day is to show that in that event of war, which we cannot rule out as impossible, the Army will be useless until the Militia has been reconstituted, and I also wish to suggest that nothing is more likely to tempt foreign nations to go to war than the spectacle of England in a state of military weakness. The latter, however, is too large a theme for discussion on this particular issue. What I have said is an explanation as brief and concise as I can make it, of the object of my Motion, and now I want to show that the re-constitution of the Militia may prove to be the solution of other great difficulties which are causing us much anxiety and perplexity at the present time.
Recruiting for the Regular Army has become slack to an alarming extent and the Territorial Army is rapidly vanishing. Those are the difficulties to which I refer and I have now to show that they
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are closely connected with this question of the Militia. Just about three weeks ago the noble Viscount, the Secretary of State for War, made a speech which delighted me even more than most of his speeches do. It was a speech after my own heart and when I chanced to see the report in a provincial paper I was encouraged to hope that the noble Viscount would be sympathetic and not disappoint me this afternoon. The occasion for the speech was the opening of the Scots Guards Loan Exhibition. The noble Viscount said that ever since he had assumed his present high office it had "seemed to him a very curious thing, and a very unfortunate thing, that there should be any difficulty at all in these days in getting enough recruits to join the Army," and he went on to expatiate in stirring words on the advantages of Army life. I may perhaps quote some of the things he said a little later on. Now, will the noble Viscount allow me to tell him why there is this difficulty about getting recruits for the Army? The reason is well known to every regimental officer, but, judging from past experience, it is very probably ignored at the War Office. The reason is simply and solely because the Militia has ceased to exist.
Before the War the Army used to rely on a large and constant stream of recruits from the Militia. The Militia was regarded as a sort of ante-chamber to the Regular Army because most young men preferred to get a taste of military life by a trial trip in the Militia before they would commit themselves to an Army engagement. If, therefore, the Secretary of State wishes to revive recruiting for the Army he has a sure and certain means of doing it by merely re-constituting the Militia. He will at the same time be extending to a large number of physically fit young men who are unhappily among the unemployed all those physical and moral advantages of Army life of which he spoke so eloquently and so truly. I said that the Territorial Army was vanishing and I must, of course, explain what I meant by that. The facts, so far as I have been able to ascertain them, are as follows: The latest War Office returns reveal a total loss in eight months—that is, from the 31st December, 1933, to the 31st August, 1934—of 6,679 officers and men of the Territorial Army. The worst previous

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Territorial year was 1932 with an all-ranks total of 127,068 men. The total strength of the Territorial Army as shown in the last return—up to the 1st September, 1934—is now 126,057. This is a loss of 1,011 men on 1932 and is the lowest total ever reached. The establishment of the Territorial Army is 172,086 all ranks. Therefore, there is now a shortage—mark this, please, my Lords—of 46,029 officers and men. It is of course a very serious matter that our Reserve Army, with all its new responsibilities, should be in that condition and it behoves us to look into the causes in order that some remedy may be found.
Now here again, may I be allowed to tell the Secretary of State for War what causes this alarming falling off in recruiting for the Territorial Army? What I have to tell the noble Viscount is not merely my own opinion but the opinion. which is widely prevalent among officers and men of the Territorial Army. It is again simply because we have no Militia. The Territorial soldier is afraid that in spite of all pledges to the contrary, he will be used for drafting to the Regular Army as soon as war breaks out. He has sense enough to see that that is bound to happen as long as the Army is without its time-honoured and unfailing source of reinforcements in the shape of the Militia. He communicates that fear to his friends and neighbours, and the mothers, above all, who cannot forget the Great War, take alarm and will not let their sons join the Territorial Army. That really is at the root of the whole matter. That is the chief reason why recruiting for the Territorial Army is falling off, in spite of the general belief that war is no longer unthinkable, and it will continue to fall off until His Majesty's Government make some definite statement as to what they intend to do to provide the necessary Army Reserve. What is wanted is some definite statement such as that which the late Lord Haldane made in 1907. The "Haldane Plan," as it was called, told us where we were and rendered it possible to make those detailed preparations which enabled us to enter upon the Great War without initial chaos and disaster.
All these things are set forth and explained in detail in a pamphlet which has been written for the Militia Club, an association of old Militia officers which
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has had a Field Marshal and several eminent Generals among its members and is concerned to preserve the Militia tradition for the good of the nation. The writer of that pamphlet was Major Breffit, a Staff officer of recent and wide experience who has just retired from the Army. I have of course submitted copies of that pamphlet to the noble Viscount, the Secretary of State for War, and his advisers at the War Office, and I shall be happy to send a copy to any noble Lord who may do me the honour and favour of asking for one. I do not wish to take up your Lordships' time by showing how the British Army has always depended upon the Militia for reinforcements in time of war. It seems to me and to all those with whom I have been able to discuss this matter that the Army will undoubtedly require the reconstitution of the Militia whenever we have to go to war again unless meanwhile we adopt the Continental system of universal military service. But nothing short of a revolution is likely to bring about such a change in our military system, and if we wish to avoid revolutionary movements like those which are disturbing the nations of the Continent we cannot do better than adhere to the Militia tradition, the tradition of that old Constitutional Force which used to be described as the People's Army.
The present position is that we are depriving half the population of the opportunity of military service under that voluntary system on which Englishmen pin their faith. We are only affording that opportunity to those who can give Territorial Army service, that is to say, who can do mid-week drills or week-end soldiering throughout the year. But the other half of our young manhood, who are equally keen and make equally good soldiers, can only give Militia service, which means one month of continuous training in each year. This difference, of course, is a matter of occupation and place of residence. For instance, it is obviously not possible for the agricultural worker to attend weekly drills on Saturdays and Sundays in a town which is some distance from his village, but he can attend a Militia training at the time of year when agriculture is slack. Similar difficulties apply to the man who works in great towns. No system which does not give equal opportunity to all classes

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of able-bodied and patriotic young men can possibly be regarded as efficient seeing that it wastes half the human material available for the making of soldiers. The officer class is in precisely the same position. There are those who could do an annual training but cannot do week-end drills throughout the year.
There is one other point that I must mention and that is that a reconstitution of the Militia, which might in the first instance be confined to certain districts, would be a wonderful palliative of the present evils of unemployment. With the six months recruit training of former days you would be doing for a considerable number of young men all those things which our numerous voluntary agencies are trying to do at the present time, and you would be doing it in a much more effective way as you would be giving those young men the self-respect which comes from the knowledge that they are actually serving King and country and that they have got a definite job. You would be giving them all those things which were so eloquently described by the noble Viscount, the Secretary of State for War, in his eloquent speech to the Scots Guards. I cannot resist quoting the noble Viscount's words once more. He said:
"When one sees the kind of career which is offered to the young men of to-day to join the ranks of any great regiment, the physical training which they get, the educational advantages which are given to them, the life of interest and adventure which they are likely to embark upon, and finally the opportunity for employment and the vocational training which the Army affords, one would have thought that so long as there are any physically fit young men unemployed there ought to be no dearth of candidates for the Army."
I am very much afraid that I shall be told that this is all very well, but where is the money to come from? I have an answer to that probable objection. I suggest that you have got the money and that something can be done on the lines which I have suggested without any increase of the sums at present voted for national expenditure.
In the first place, there will be a large saving on the money voted for the Territorial Army so long as there is a shortage of nearly 50,000 officers and men. Secondly, you will be making a permanent saving of money at present expended to mitigate the evils of unemployment if you give healthy physical and
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moral training in the Militia to, say, 100,000 of the young men who have never even had a job. And thirdly, I suggest that some retrenchment of present Army expenditure ought to be possible when it is a matter of providing a necessary Reserve for the Regular Army. I am asking for Papers and I can best explain what sort of Papers I want by putting a single question to the noble Viscount. My question is this: If war broke out and our Army were sent abroad, what would happen three weeks after the war had started? I beg to move.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I think we must all agree that we have heard a very informative speech from the noble Lord who has just sat down. He said in the course of his speech that the cream of the Militia went into the Army. I must confess that I quite agree with him because I entered the Army through the Militia. However, I am not going to discuss the Militia, because the noble Lord has told us in the course of his interesting speech a great many facts as to which I thoroughly agree with him. Everyone connected with military matters knows what a tremendous interest the noble Lord has taken in this subject and how well he did during the War. I well remember him at Felixstowe at the head of his regiment; and there was no finer regiment. The brigade was commanded by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, and I well remember going to Lord Salisbury and asking how he liked it. He said that his most efficient battalion was the noble Lord's, and he said that he himself has never in his life felt such a "swell" as when he commanded the brigade, though having, as your Lordships know, filled very many high offices of State. But as I said at the commencement of my remarks, I do not propose to deal with the Militia, with many of the facts connected with which I am fairly conversant, but, talking about reserves, I should like to say a few words about the Territorials.
Your Lordships may well question me as to my right to do so. After having served in the Army for a good many years, I was connected as honorary Colonel with one of the most splendid battalions in the County of London. Last February, the matter came before the Association of London Mayors, of which I am President, and it was then agreed to look into the

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whole question of the Territorials as part of our civic duties; because I may remind your Lordships that out of the ten divisions two are London divisions and those London divisions are 40 per cent. under strength. The question was how they could be helped to recruit. Various suggestions were made, and I sat upon a committee which was helped by the secretary of the County of London Territorial Association.
We came to the conclusion that the trouble lay firstly in the location of the various headquarters, some of which were old and some of which are now rather remote from the industrial portions of the population. Another reason was the fact that men moved—for labour is very mobile in London—and that to go back to their old regiment they had to travel. That took up a lot of time for which they received no travelling allowance. You can quite understand that a man who has been attached, say, to a corps in St. Pancras and goes to live at Battersea, while he does not want to leave his corps, finds after a time that it costs him so much to go that he has to give it up. One of our suggestions was that travelling allowance should be given. Above all, your Lordships will remember that during the time of economy measures only 30s. bounty was allowed; it was cut down from £5, and we suggested that a further grant should be given for the bounty. A recent illustration of the movement of population is afforded by what happened the other day in the City of Westminster. Curiously enough it was named the City of London Fusiliers, but its headquarters were in Westminster. That battalion was very much under strength. It then moved to Wandsworth, end had new headquarters there—its old headquarters were not bad—and it struck a new patch altogether. The result is that the battalion is now over strength.
There is also art opportunity now of looking into this question in London—because, as I have said, it is practically one-fifth of the whole of the Territorials of this country—and of seeing whether arrangements cannot be made to move some of the headquarters and get better drill-grounds in less populated areas. We are very much concerned in this matter, because we feel that London should not be behindhand in doing its best for the Territorial Army. I cannot help thinking
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that the noble Lord has done very good service in bringing the matter forward, and drawing attention to the lack of Reserve. I am not going to argue, the question of the Militia. His figures have thoroughly demonstrated how lacking we are in the matter of the Reserve. No one who went through the last War will be in favour of war, but it is no use pretending to the country at large that we have a Reserve at all adequate even for the police duties required in this great Empire. I do not want to take up more of your Lordships' time, but the Mayors of London have been very anxious about this matter. They have represented their views very strongly to the War Office, and have suggested all manner of means for improving recruiting. Our object is the same as that of the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, to try and help the country to get a better Reserve for whatever needs the country may be called upon to fulfil.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, may If be allowed first of all to say how grateful I am to my noble friend Lord Ampthill for the very clear and emphatic words he used with regard to the necessity of being prepared for emergency, and of not overlooking or ignoring the claims of the Army owing to the inure popular needs of its younger brother in the air. I am grateful to him, too, because the fact that this debate is taking place and the Question which he has been good enough to put to me give me an opportunity of clearing up certain misconceptions and, I hope, of relieving to some extent, at any rate, certain anxieties. The sense of public duty which has moved my noble friend to bring this matter forward is, I think, shown by the fact that my noble friend and those associated with him have actually gone so far in their desire to help the War Office, as to intimate that they were willing that the principal function of the Militia—which, as he truly said, is the old Constitutional Force of the country—should be to find drafts for the Regular Army, rather than remaining in its own units to go overseas as a separate branch of the forces. I know that in making that suggestion he is making a very great concession from what he would himself best wish to see.
I have to thank him, too, for his courtesy in supplying to me the pamphlet to which he made reference, and which

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sets out very clearly the case of the Militia Club and those interested in it—their case for the revival of the Militia, either in its own name or under the title of Special Reserve. I notice that in that pamphlet the Secretary of State for War is exhorted to "put his cards on the table," and a little later on I am urged, not to declare, but confess, "with tragic veracity," that I have got nothing up my sleeve. I am going as far as I can to respond to this invitation. I shall put my cards on the table, so far as is possible without betraying important military secrets, and I hope to show, even if I am not as fully equipped as I should wish, that I have one or two cards of whose existence, I think, my noble friend bad no suspicion.
Before I come to deal with the arguments which my noble friend put forward, not in a spirit of controversy, and I do not wish to be contentious, I should like to begin quite frankly by saying that if I had unlimited funds available for Army purposes I should be very glad to see the Militia resuscitated. I recognise that it would be undoubtedly of use, because it would tap recruiting sources which at present are not touched by the Territorial Army. I am not quite sure that they would be quite such freely flowing springs as my noble friend thinks, but undoubtedly it is true that the existence of the Militia or Special Reserve would enable a certain number of people to give military services which at present they do not feel themselves able to give. In addition, the existence of the Militia or Special Reserve would relieve the Regular Army of one of the manifold tasks which it has to carry out to-day, and that is the task of creating out of its own resources the machinery for absorbing the immature and temporarily unfit men on mobilisation, and for training drafts for the maintenance of the Regular Army in the field. Unfortunately it is not true to say that I have unlimited resources. We have to cut our coat according to our cloth, and I am afraid the result under present conditions is that the coat is not nearly big enough properly to fit the body which it is designed to cover. We have not just to accept all the suggestions which we think useful, but we have to see how far the funds available can be distributed so as to get the best possible value for
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every penny we are able to obtain from the Exchequer.
My noble friend, I think, foresaw that that difficulty might be present in my mind, and he made three suggestions with regard to the provision of the necessary funds. He said, first of all, as is unfortunately true, that the Territorial Army was far below its peace establishment, and he said, "There you have a lot of money saved." Of course in the Budget estimates we do not take the funds necessary to maintain the Territorial Army at its peace establishment. I wish we did. All we take are the funds which are necessary to maintain it at what we think will be its recruited strength during the coming year. Then my noble friend said that money would be saved on unemployment expenditure if we got men into the Army or Militia. It is true it would be, and I should be personally glad if I could only hope to see some of the funds diverted to that purpose, but I am afraid that there I should find very considerable difficulty in persuading the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take quite the same view. Then he said that we could make a retrenchment on Army expenditure in order to make up the deficiency. That is only saying in another way that we could spend the money on the Militia instead of spending it on something else. The fact is that we have not got enough to spend even on the things which we regard as necessary, and that there is nothing which we could cut down in order to provide the necessary money which would be required.
The actual cost of the Militia, as my noble friend knows very well, but as some of your Lordships may not know, was, I think, in the last year before the War £1,380,000. When in 1923 there was a good deal of consideration given to the question of its resuscitation, there was a Committee set up and the estimate of what it would then cost was in the neighbourhood of £2,500,000 per annum; so that your Lordships see that a very considerable sum of money is necessarily involved. But because we have not been able to afford to revive the Militia or the Special Reserve in the shape which it took before the War, that does not mean that we have been content not to devise any means to provide for the need which that force was designed to supply in 1914.

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My noble friend put a very pertinent and conclusive question when he concluded his speech by enquiring what would happen three weeks after war broke out, if the Army had to take the field under existing conditions, and his case, as I understood it, was largely based on the hypothesis that although in the Territorial Army we had a Reserve Army, we had to-day, in the absence of the Militia, no Army Reserve. That, of course, if it were true, would he a complete condemnation of the whole of our military organisation to-day because, as my noble friend truly said, it is quite useless to have an Army which is at the necessary minimum war strength when war breaks out, but which has nothing to fall back upon to make good the wastage in the early days of the war before fresh recruits can be trained. Your Lordships, I hope, will not be surprised to know that that somewhat elementary truth had not escaped the notice of those very brilliant and skilful generals and soldiers whose duty it has been to conduct the organisation of the Army and to advise Secretaries of State at the War Office. To have done nothing in the direction of supplying an Army Reserve would have meant, as my noble friend himself indicates, that the mobilisation of the Regular Army would be practically impossible or, if it were mobilised, it would be practically a useless force.
In fact, that position has been considered and has been met. I know that my noble friend will be relieved, and I think your Lordships will be relieved, to learn that measures have been taken to deal with it. I propose to deal principally with infantry, because it is the infantry which the Militia mainly supplied. It is not only the largest arm, but also it is the one which is, I think, principally in the mind of my noble friend. There are, of course, technical corps, the Engineers, the Signals, the Royal Army Service Corps, the Medical Corps, and so on; and with regard to all of those we have at this time what is known as a Supplementary Reserve, which is substantially the same as the Special Reserve of those arms was before the War, but fortunately their establishment is larger than it used to be in pre-War days.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: What is the strength of that Reserve?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am afraid I shall have to get those figures. I can give them in a moment. Then, if I may, I will deal with the infantry position. The hypothesis, I think, on which my noble friend's argument proceeds is that the number of Army reservists which would be available on the outbreak of war would only suffice to bring up the Regular Army units from peace establishment to war establishment strength; and that it follows that there would be no supply of reservists to make good any wastage until the time at which post-war recruits would be sufficiently trained to take their place in the field. And I think also he would say, if he were pressed, that in the absence of the Militia there is no adequate machinery, such as existed by virtue of the Militia before the War, for training these post-war recruits and to make them fit.
Now I am glad to be able to tell your Lordships that that is not, in fact, the position. What we have done is this. We have provided by the terms of service in the infantry battalions a scheme under which there will be at any given moment sufficient reservists not merely to bring the units up to their war establishment, but also to replace casualties during those months which must elapse before post-war recruits are available to act as drafts. In addition to that we have evolved machinery for the reception of any soldiers who, on medical grounds, or age, or lack of training are not able to accompany their units overseas and to train men also who join the Colours after the outbreak of war. That latter machinery is provided by the altered system of regimental depots, which would be suitably expanded as soon as war actually broke out. That does mean that the Regular Army is to that extent undertaking functions which were discharged by the Militia in 1914, and it is a fair question to ask whether that can be a cheaper method than reviving the Special Reserve for the purpose. The answer is that it is a cheaper method, and I should like, if I may, to explain how the method works.
I hope I shall state these matters, which are perhaps a little technical, in simple language. Your Lordships will realise that the war establishment of any unit is based primarily on military considerations; that is to say, in fixing what

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is to be the war strength of any particular unit, you decide on military grounds what would be the proper strength, and you do not take some arbitrary figure based on the number of men whom you think likely to be available at any given moment. But while the war establishment of a unit to-day is, for technical reasons, substantially lower than it was in 1914, the reduction in the peace establishment of an infantry battalion as compared with 1914 is very much less, and the reason for that is that, in fixing the strength of the peace establishment of an infantry battalion at home, the factor to which you have regard is the main function of an infantry battalion in peace time, that is to say, the function of supplying drafts for its linked battalion which is engaged on duty overseas. As your Lordships know, under the Cardwell system each battalion going overseas has its linked battalion at home, and we fix the strength in peace time of the home battalion with reference to the number of men necessary to supply drafts in time of peace.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: Would my noble friend give us the figures—what is the establishment and what was the establishment—so that we can form a judgment?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I did not anticipate that this House was going to form itself into an expert Committee to decide whether or not the establishment was adequate. If I had imagined that I should have been able to bring forward every figure. I can, however, give the figures the noble Earl asks. In July last the figures for the Supplementary Reserve were: 1,234 officers, 17,333 other ranks. The point is not what the figures were, the point is what the relative figures are. The relative figures are so arranged that you will have on the outbreak of war the necessary number of reservists in order to bring any given battalion up to its war strength, and sufficient surplus to constitute the necessary reserve strength to make good the wastages which in prewar days were supplied by the members of the Special Reserve. I am not saying, and I hope neither my noble friend nor the House will imagine I am saying, that I am prepared to undertake that at any given moment—at this given moment—there is every man that we need or every reserve that we need either in men or
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in material. The whole scheme on which the Army plan is now based consists in so regulating and adjusting the comparative war strength and peace strength as to ensure that, given normal recruiting, there will be available in the existing Army Reserve—the people who have done their service with the Colours and are still on the Reserve—sufficient men not only to bring the battalion up to war strength but also to supply the wastage which will normally arise during the first months of a campaign.
My noble friend has said that he realises that recruiting is not altogether satisfactory. I have said it myself, and I am very grateful to him for reinforcing that observation. I had not known that the speech which I was privileged to make at the luncheon of the Scots Guards had obtained any wider publicity than that particular dining room, and I am grateful to him for giving it a wider currency. I stand by every word I said then. I think it is a matter of profound regret that when, there are so many young men who would benefit immensely by the Army training, physically and mentally, who would gain opportunities of widening their whole outlook on life, who would gain the chance of interesting times abroad in time of peace, who would gain an opportunity for that vocational training which the Army affords, who would have the greatly improved prospect of obtaining work at the end of their Colour service which those who leave the Army, I am glad to think, to-day enjoy—that when there are all these young men available they are somehow dissuaded, I am afraid, often by people who ought to know better, from availing themselves of these opportunities. Anything that could be done to make these advantages and opportunities better known would be a real national service. Unfortunately it is not only in men that there is a shortage to-day. The policy of unilateral disarmament which every successive Government in this country has pursued in the hone of inducing other countries to follow our example has undoubtedly resulted in the accumulation of serious deficiencies, particularly as regards stores and material; but I am glad to think that these deficiencies, serious as they are, are not so serious in the way of man-power as my noble friend, not unnaturally, had supposed.

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I do not propose this afternoon to go into the question of the Territorial Army, because my noble friend Lord Jessel will forgive me for saying that is not directly raised by the Motion which Lord Ampthill has on the Order Paper; but I should like to say that the suggestions which were made by the conference to which he drew our attention—the conference of the London Mayors—have been communicated, as he knows, to me personally. They have been discussed by me with my noble friend Lord Strathcona, who is immediately responsible for the Territorial Army, and with the Director-General and other prominent officials, and the suggestions which that conference put forward are among the suggestions which are under very careful examination at the present moment. I am not in a position to make a statement about them, for reasons which my noble friend will understand. I am sorry I cannot say to my noble friend Lord Ampthill that we are going immediately or at any given moment in the future to reconstitute the Special Reserve. We still have it, as he knows, in the Army List. It is true it is only a skeleton at present. It may happen as circumstances alter and as opportunities arise, that we may find it necessary or possible to revive that force in some shape or another, but for the time being the financial position does not lead me to hope that is possible. The fact to which he called such pointed attention—namely, that the Territorial Army is so much below its strength—makes me feel that the first thing we have to do in the way of increasing our man-power is to try and get a better response to the appeal for Territorial recruits.
I should like to see the Reserve Army brought up to strength before I explore this fresh avenue for the supplementation of the Army Reserve. If the opportunity should occur, if the necessity should arise, and if the funds were available, we have there in existence the names, at any rate, of the old Militia who have, as he truly said, for so many man centuries rendered yeoman service to this country, and I am quite sure if those in authority, whenever the time comes, think that is the best way of increasing our strength either for recruiting purposes or for the purpose of reserve, they will find in any Militia force which they call upon to come to their aid the same patriotism end the same material as we have so often
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relied upon in the past. I am sorry I have not any Papers to lay, but I have given such information as is in my power, and I hope my noble friend therefore will not press his Motion.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: My Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, has done great service by bringing this Question forward, but I must honestly say the answers of my noble friend seem to be wholly inadequate. I have never in my life heard the Secretary of State for War asked such a Question in this form—"to call attention to the fact that there is no adequate Reserve for the Regular Army." He might have condescended to figures to show whether there is or not an adequate Reserve. He has given us the War Office theory as to how the Regular Army is to be mobilised, but what I ask him is, what numbers are available? Unfortunately, he has not provided us with those figures. There are officers all over the country who know perfectly well that if you want to make a regiment a thousand strong for the purpose of mobilisation, you must be able to count upon a certain figure already existing in the regiment before you proceed to pour in the Reserve. There have been discussions over and over again in the House of Commons in days gone by as to whether the normal strength of a battalion should be, say, 700 or 800. Surely my noble friend is in a position to tell us what the normal strength is at the present time. Everybody has a right to know. We ought to be told whether the normal strength is 700 or 800 or what it is, so that we may be able to judge whether the total strength is so weak that it will really imperil the condition of the whole battalion if it is sent into the field.
I am not going to pursue the matter to-night, because I regard a great deal of what fell from my noble friend as to the position of the Government with respect to the Army at the present time as being very grave. I know perfectly well the difficulties in which we are at this moment. We are in the absurd position of having a large number of young men with nothing whatever to do, drawing Government pay for doing nothing because they can find nothing to do, yet who must not be trained even voluntarily so that they might serve their country if they were ever called upon to

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do so. All that makes the position of the Secretary for War very difficult. I notice that the opinion of both the Under-Secretaries of State in that office who have served in this House is the same as my own. In the new year, not at this the tail end of the sittings this year, it is absolutely necessary that this House should know, and that the country should know, what Army we have to depend upon.
I hope that under no circumstances for many years may we have to send an Army on to the Continent again, but I feel that we ought to know what really is the condition of the Army, and whether the figures which have been put before us on this occasion to some extent by my noble friend opposite as regards our national defence generally, are correct. We had some discussion on a Motion by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, the other day, and some figures were then given. We ought to be told whether these figures really represent the proper and safe position in which, in the opinion of the Government, we ought to stand. If the Army is, let us say, one-third less than it was in 1914, I think we ought to know it. I am sure my noble friend will not feel it discourteous if I ask him when we bring forward this question again to arm himself with all those figures which we must know in order to form a proper judgment on the question.
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Lords, I will not take up more than two minutes of your time, but I should like, and I think your Lordships would like, to get the comparison a little clearer. So far as my memory serves me, before the War there was a class of men known as Schedule D men. Do they exist now or are they now included in the figure of, I think, 17,000, which the noble Viscount gave us as the Reserve for casualties? I am using the term "Reserve for casualties" in rather a loose way, but I understood him to say that after filling up the battalions to war strength there was a further Reserve of 17,000 on which we would be able to draw to replace the first casualties in the field. I gather that they may, or may not, include what we knew as Schedule D men before the War, but, from the point of view of the argument, the figures seem to compare with a force of 63,000 men which I think constituted the Militia or the Special Reserve in 1913–14. The noble Viscount shakes
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his head. It is just to clear up those points that I have ventured to ask these questions.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I can only speak again by leave of the House, but the Supplementary Reserve to which I called attention is a Reserve merely for what I call the technical units—that is to say, it does not include the infantry battalions. I am sorry it was not clear. It includes the Engineers, the Army Service Corps, the Medical Corps and so on. It has nothing to do with the Infantry Reserve, which is quite a different figure, and a figure which I do not wish to give to the House even if I had it at the moment because it involves disclosing our mobilisation figures which we do not make public. The peace figures of the battalions can be given and are to be found in the Estimates.
LORD AMPTHILL: My Lords, I hope the House will not think that my interpellation has wasted the time of your Lordships, because we have obtained a very interesting statement from the noble Viscount the Secretary of State for War. If I may, I should like to thank him for having been at such pains to answer my Question with so much elaboration. I fully appreciate the fact that he has been overburdened with other work, and I am, therefore, all the more grateful to him for having taken so much trouble over the matter. I quite understand that we could not expect any different kind of answer at the present time, but I am not going to let this matter drop and I am going to do my best to see that others keep it up. I hope that by that means we shall persuade His Majesty's Government to reconsider their attitude about this matter. As I understand it, a neat calculation has been made between peace establishments and war establishments which will give us a rather larger Reserve on the outbreak of war. That is a matter of actuarial calculations of which it is impossible to judge when you hear them put by word of mouth across the floor of the House. I hope the noble Viscount will seize an early opportunity of presenting such Papers as would enable people to understand the system.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am sorry, but it really would be most undesirable to do that, and I am sure my noble friend would not wish to press me to give our war figures for mobilisation.
LORD AMPTHILL: We must content ourselves then with the noble Viscount's statement. I do not wish to take up your Lordships' time and I will, of course, withdraw my Motion for Papers. But I do want to make my own position clear. The noble Viscount seized the opportunity of pinning me down, or he thought he had pinned me down, to what he considered a very important concession—namely, that the Militia, if reconstituted, was to be used solely for furnishing reinforcements. I want to make my attitude clear. I should agree to the Militia, the Third Battalions, being used for furnishing drafts in the first instance, but I should not agree to see the terribly fatal mistake repeated which was made in the Great War. That was in not sending the Third Battalions out after a certain stage when the casualties had come home and together with recruits had swollen those battalions to three times their establishment, so that an ample training nucleus would have remained at home while the Third Battalion at war strength went abroad. It was a matter of bitter regret and resentment to all true Militia officers at the time of the War that that honour, as we regarded it, was only given to the Fourth Battalion. Most of us had to find other means of getting to the Front by joining other battalions. I admit that Third Battalions must be used for drafts in the first instance but a stage comes when they reach enormous numbers. I had 2,000 under my command as a battalion. When they come to that stage obviously they can go out as a unit and leave behind a drafting battalion of more than ordinary strength. Once more allow me to thank the noble Viscount. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

JUDICIARY (SAFEGUARDING) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

DEPRESSED AREAS (DEVELOPMENT AND IMPROVEMENT) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ROCHESTER): My Lords, in moving the
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Second Reading of this Bill, I should, in the first place, like to present it as a Government contribution to the great national movement to assist the depressed areas, which has been one of the most encouraging features of a difficult and at times tragic situation. One of the leading members of the Party represented by the noble Lords opposite stated in his speech on the Third Reading of the Bill in another place that he wished to pay a tribute to the great section of public opinion which had not only been deeply disturbed and concerned by this problem, but had at times shown that concern, in a voluntary and magnificent way, worthy of the best traditions and sentiments of this country. I very fully concur in that expression of view, and I hope that I shall be able to convince your Lordships that the Bill, if it does not fully satisfy the wishes and expectations of all your Lordships, does at least go some way to respond to the general public desire for action, and suggests a hopeful and experimental course, which may ultimately lead to a large measure of success. If I cannot succeed in commanding the complete assent of noble Lords opposite, I do at least hope that they will agree to the contention that this Bill does in a concrete, definite, if in their view limited, way attempt to grapple with the problem on orderly and carefully planned lines.
I will not trouble your Lordships by rehearsing at length the history which has led up to the presentation of this Bill. It will be enough to remind you of the fact that there was an investigation by four investigators into the conditions of what are known as the depressed areas, though if I may repeat the observation of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, they may be distressed but they are not depressed. The Government have very carefully considered the Reports of the investigators to which tributes have been widely paid in the Press and in the country, and I should like, if I may, to add my voice to that eulogistic chores. As a result of those investigations, taking into account the broad lines which were common in the Reports, the Government have prepared this Bill which I am now submitting to your Lordships for Second Reading. I will, in a moment, briefly explain the various clauses one by one. I would, however, anticipate that detailed explanation by two or three

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general observations, which I hope will tend to clarify certain doubts which have arisen in the course of the debates in another place, and which may also help to exhibit the broad lines of the Bill.
In the first place it is a Bill to set up two Commissioners with regional Sub-Commissioners, who are charged with the duty of initiating, organising, prosecuting and assisting measures designed to facilitate the economic development and social improvement of the depressed areas scheduled to the Bill. It will be observed that these two Commissioners are completely separate from all Government Departments, and the object has been to concentrate in the hands of two people duties which, if spread among a number of Departments, would tend, or might tend, to be too much dissipated to serve the purposes of the emergency in which admittedly we find ourselves. In order to secure that the Commissioners shall be able to do the work imposed upon them, the Bill is so framed, as within the powers conferred upon the Commissioners, to give them the freest possible power of movement. They are necessarily, in both cases, responsible to a Minister of the Crown; this is in order to bring them within the four corners of constitutional practice. Subject to this, however, and to the necessary financial control which the voting of their monies imposes, they will be in a freer position than any other executive officers of the Crown.
It is the Government's policy, and wish, that they should be encouraged to experiment freely, with the knowledge that some of such experiments may fail; they may even make mistakes and thus prove that mistakes are not the sole prerogative of members of the Government! The first striking point, therefore, in the proposals in the Bill, is that the Commissioners have wide powers which they can freely exercise. The second point of general importance is the amount of money placed at their disposal. Here I do not for a moment desire to shirk the issue. It has been freely alleged that £2,000,000 is a pill to cure an earthquake. That, however, is a question of the size and contents of the pill and the seismic powers of the disturbance to which reference is made. If the pill is not merely gilded, but solid gold, and if the extent of the depressed area more especially affected by the economic earthquake is
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not unduly exaggerated, I submit to your Lordships, that the amounts placed at the disposal of the Commissioners are not insufficient for the experimental purposes for which they are intended. It is stated in the Bill, in terms, that the £2,000,000 are voted for the existing financial year, that is, up to the end of March, covering, therefore, a period of roughly three months. It is also clearly laid down that further sums thereafter may be voted, to the amount that Parliament may determine.
It would, I suggest, have been rash and inexpedient to devote a larger sum for the first three months, until the Commissioners had, as a result of their preliminary investigation of their problem, been able to submit to Ministers their view as to any additional funds they would ultimately need for their purposes. It is both unfair and premature to assume that this sum is the whole or indeed necessarily a considerable part of what the Government, at the request of the Commissioners, may subsequently ask Parliament to allot. I should, therefore, like to make it abundantly clear to your Lordships, that the £2,000,000 is in the nature of a token vote and merely a preliminary figure for the three months ending next March, and therefore that the criticism of the smallness of the amount is beside the point in view of the definite provision in Clause 3, subsection (2), to the effect that this amount can be augmented as Parliament may determine. The idea of this arrangement is that the Commissioners shall start off with enough money to make it certain that they will be enabled to undertake any experimental work which they think is necessary and that thereafter, as and when the Government and Parliament think that more money should be given to them, that will be done.
In the third place there has been much discussion on the area to which the Bill applies. It has been argued that the four selected areas, which are scheduled in detail to the Bill, by no means exhaust those parts of the country in which distress is prevalent and extensive. Upon this, I would emphasise that the Bill is experimental in its nature, and relates in the first place to those areas by common consent the worst in respect of unemployment, the worst in average, in particular localities, and in duration. Secondly, it is essential for successful ex-

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periment that it should be concentrated as narrowly as possible on the areas most urgently in need of assistance; and thirdly, while it is true that there are other areas in need of assistance, in those other areas there are in nearly every case internal powers of recovery and otherwise favourable circumstances which make their case at least less urgent and less compelling. We have therefore three general points. First, that the Commissioners have wide powers to be freely exercised; secondly, that the moneys to be placed at their disposal are by no means limited to the £2,000,000 mentioned in the Bill; and thirdly, that the areas chosen are deliberately chosen as those which, for the purposes of the present experiment, are most urgently in need of aid.
I come now to the clauses, which I will attempt to explain as briefly as possible. Clause 1 provides for the establishment of the two Commissioners. I have already stated their general functions as designed by the Bill. In particular they are: (a) To act in association with the Unemployment Assistance Board in matters relating to the promotion of the welfare of persons covered by the Unemployment Act, 1934—a very wide power if the powers of the Unemployment Assistance Board are borne in mind—and (b) to recommendations to Government Departments and local authorities, as to the removal of existing difficulties in the exercise of their powers. Here again I anticipate that the intervention of the Commissioner, as a sympathetic third party, will in many eases act as the solvent of those interdepartmental difficulties which, often despite the good will of the Departments, are an inevitable deterrent to rapid progress. The Commissioners coming in from outside with the single object of improving the condition of the depressed areas will certainly be able to exercise a wide and useful influence in this regard.
On the other hand their powers are limited, and I think your Lordships will agree, properly limited, in certain respects. I have already indicated the first limitation, which is that of area, and I have explained the reasons for that limitation. There is the second important limitation of not being able to assist undertakings carried on for the purposes of gain, except in the class of case that is covered by proviso (i) to subsection 5
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of Clause 1, namely, those whose primary object is to establish an unemployed person in a position of independence or partial independence. I would say in further explanation of this proviso, which has given rise to certain misapprehensions in another place, that its principal object is to assist such undertakings as those of the cultivation of small holdings where some part of the produce may be sold, but which are not conducted primarily for profit, but only for securing a livelihood for the persons engaged therein. In other words, this limitation is to prevent assisting private enterprise which involves competition. In the next place, the Commissioners' powers do not permit them to grant financial assistance by way of grant or loan to any local authority except in respect of expenditure on works by local authorities not covered by grants from Government Departments, or towards the provision of small holdings or allotments. The object of this provision is to prevent the otherwise inevitable overlapping between the powers of local authorities and the Commissioners, an overlapping which would tend to rob the Commissioners' work of much of its usefulness. There is, however, a wide field of effort in the ground left open to them, and in order to secure that, even here, there shall be no confusion of function, it is provided that help shall only be given in such cases with the consent of the appropriate Minister.
Clause 2 is a new clause interpolated as a result of representations made in another place and provides for the possible appointment of a Deputy Commissioner for England and Wales. It was represented in another place that the Bill as then drawn only made it possible to appoint two Commissioners, and it was felt in some quarters that experience might indicate the wisdom of appointing a third Commissioner, while the terms of the Bill as originally drawn gave the Minister no powers in that behalf. The Government were not of opinion then, and I want to make it abundantly plain to your Lordships that they are not of opinion now, that a third Commissioner will be necessary, seeing that the Commissioner in England will already be assisted by Regional Sub-Commissioners. The Government are, however, perfectly ready to provide for the possible contingency of the appointment of a further

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Deputy Commissioner, and the provision in Clause 2 is therefore inserted.
Clause 3 contains the financial provisions of the Bill. I have already made a reference to the £2,000,000 to be provided by Parliament; in addition sums received by the Commissioners in the exercise of their functions, as for instance from sale of land, will be paid into the Depressed Areas Fund. The Commissioners may with the consent of the Treasury accept any gift or bequest for purposes within their functions as is set out in the Second Schedule, but any sums so received will be administered separately under Clause 3, subsection (3). The remaining subsections of Clause 3 provide that the necessary Parliamentary control shall be exercised over the expenditure of the Commissioners by means of Estimates and for the preparation of accounts and their audit and submission to Parliament by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Commissioners may appoint and pay such officers and servants as are required, subject to the consent of the Minister of Labour or the Secretary of State as the case may be, and the Treasury. The cost of this staff, together with such sums as may be paid (with similar consent) to the Commissioners should such payment be necessary (although in point of fact the proposed Commissioners will in fact, like the Paymaster-General, be unpaid), will be regarded as part of the expenses of the Commissioners as is set out in the Second Schedule.
Clause 4 enables the Commissioners to acquire land. Read with the relevant Schedule—namely, the Third Schedule—its intention is to provide an expeditious means in the Commissioners for this purpose. It will be realised that it may be necessary in the course of the Commissioners' work that the normal methods of acquisition of land should in this particular emergency be amplified. The provisions, however, are carefully drawn to safeguard existing rights. With necessary modifications they are the same as those contained in the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930, which your Lordships will remember was an Act passed to expedite the procedure for empowering local authorities and statutory undertakings to execute works which would contribute to the relief of unemployment and facilitate the acquisition of land required for the purposes of their
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function. That latter Act was passed in order to provide more speedy machinery in this direction, in substitution of the somewhat protracted methods provided by the Land Clauses Acts.
The object of Clause 5 is to enable the Commissioner for England and Wales to work through the local authority, if he so desires, in the provision of land for cultivation by unemployed men in the depressed areas. The county councils may wish to act as agents for the Commissioner, and the clause would permit of this. On the other hand, if they prefer to exercise powers already vested in them in the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, for the purpose of providing such land, the Commissioners will proceed in accordance with subsection (1) of Clause 5. In that event the land will be acquired by the small holdings authority and will be vested in them as part of their small holdings estate, and will be used by them for letting to unemployed men. The subsection in such cases will enable the Commissioner to give a supplementary grant if it be required.
Clause 6 provides for the application of the Bill to Scotland, and needs no further explanation, but I am sure my noble friend Lord Strathcona, who so ably represents the Scottish Office in your Lordships' House, will heartily agree that the appointment of a separate Commissioner for Scotland is both necessary and desirable. Clause 7 provides for the continuance of any powers or duties which may still be regarded as appropriate or necessary, in the Unemployment Assistance Board upon the termination of the Act. The Unemployment Assistance Board are charged with the promotion of the welfare of persons covered by the Unemployment Act, and therefore it appears appropriate that the similar functions more widely exercised, though over a limited area, should, when they are no longer exercised by the Commissioners, be handed over to the Board. The reference to such transfer of powers is only to those powers which concern the welfare of the unemployed. Any other powers or holdings of land are to be transferred to the appropriate Government Department, so far as may be necessary for completing or carrying on something already begun, or winding up the Commissioners' affairs, but not so as to enable a new exercise of the powers to be begun. Clause 8 is the short title,

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extent and duration of the Bill. The duration of the Commissioners powers under this clause is roughly two years and a quarter—namely, to the 31st March, 1937. Then I come to the Schedules. The First Schedule specifies the depressed areas, and I have already explained the grounds upon which these particular areas are chosen. The Second Schedule relates to the proceedings of the Commissioners and is in common form, so far as appointment of officers, etc. is concerned and I think needs no further comment. The Third Schedule is also in common form and relates to the acquisition of land.
This, my Lords, is a brief statement of the detailed provisions of the Bill. I have not claimed for it, and the Government do not claim for it, anything more than that it is a beginning, but we believe it to be a spirited beginning to the ultimate solution of the acute difficulties that have arisen in these particular areas. We know that the final cure rests, not in the acts of the Government, but in the good will and determination of the British people to continue to assert themselves until they reach their full and merited prosperity. Nevertheless, the acts of Government are an essential ingredient in that recovery, and in so far as this Bill, in a particular direction, starts a new and hopeful process, I confidently submit this Bill to your Lordships for Second Reading. I would only add that it must not be supposed that this particular measure is the whole of the Government's programme in respect of the general problem of unemployment. Nothing is further from the facts, for there has been steady and continuous action, and I think that we are justified in claiming that the employment figures, which are over 800,000 more than they were when the Government took office, are in themselves proof that the Government have not been idle. I would not have your Lordships suppose that we are content with the progress made. We are not. We are continuing our efforts in all the directions already initiated, and in others also, of which this Bill is but one, and I hope a fertile, example. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Rochester)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, let me say at once, and let me assure my noble friend who introduced this Bill,
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that those of us who occupy these Benches welcome, just as warmly as those immediately responsible for the measure, any steps that may be taken, whether voluntary or obligatory, whether their source is private initiative or legislation passed through Parliament, towards alleviating the lot of those who must be counted as the outcasts of our present social order. We welcome the opening of social clubs in these distressed areas; we welcome the planting of settlements; we welcome the setting up of centres where unemployed men can learn to produce things with their hands that are of use to them in their homes; and we welcome the admirable work that has been done by the National Council of Social Service and by the Personal Service League. These are signs that the spirit of Christianity, a spirit which lives in individual minds rather than in institutions of orthodox religion, is still alive, and that the sentiment of solidarity is able to overcome even the most rigid of class barriers.
But, and it is evident in this matter that the Government are of our opinion, voluntary effort, however widely it may be supported, can only scratch the surface of the problem. We are glad to see that the Government, realising the gravity of the situation and seeing quite clearly that men of goodwill cannot meet single-handed a national emergency, have stepped into the breach and produced the present measure; but, glad as we are to see that public money is to be spent in these areas, that a large sum of money is to be thus spent, we regret very deeply, and must express our profound dissatisfaction at, the inability of the Government to implement the recommendations of those members of Parliament they themselves appointed to investigate the economic and social conditions in these areas.
I would refer very briefly not to the more general, and admittedly more difficult, proposals that these Commissioners suggested, but to two very practical schemes which the Government Bill appears to have neglected. In the first place, a suggestion was put forward by at least two of the four individuals who were responsible for this Report, that encouragement should be given to local industries, and that they might be developed on the spot by some such scheme as a Public Development

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Company. That is a small matter, but it is one which would touch the particular economic resources of the localities concerned. Again, one of the immediately practical recommendations of those Commissioners was that powers should be given for the undertaking of land development on a fairly large scale—what we should call general farming as opposed to the very minor agricultural undertakings that are possible when people are limited to small holdings and allotments. It is evident that from an economic point of view larger scale agricultural undertakings are more likely to be profitable and efficient than work done on a smaller scale and without proper co-ordination. We therefore regret that this is another recommendation which seems so practical and yet has been ignored by the Government.
But our dissatisfaction has far deeper roots than those which I have already mentioned because I think it stands to reason that the root causes of this grave malady of unemployment and poverty, which is exhibited at its worst in these depressed and almost derelict areas, are not to be found in the areas themselves, that they cannot be segregated and allotted to one locality, but that they must be sought in the wider sphere of our national economy, and indeed in the sphere of international economic relations. And may I remind your Lordships that this elementary observation was made, and made very pointedly, by one of these Commissioners, if I may use that term, who are supporters of the Government and who drew up the present Report. This Member of Parliament who, being Civil Lord of the Admiralty, is a person of considerable weight, suggests that,
"just as the really derelict towns and villages cannot be dealt with in isolation, so it is impossible to promote effective measures for the rehabilitation of any one area without reference to the country as a whole."
Those are the words of Captain Euan Wallace, a man who has spent much time and much labour in enquiring into the situation on the spot, and who comes back with a Report which, so far as its major recommendations are concerned, is completely neglected by the Government.
When we survey this grave malady from the angle from which it should be approached, that is to say, on the large
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national scale, we see the extraordinary gravity that this domestic question has assumed in recent years. We have—and I hope this is relevant, because after all I am trying to indicate that you can only help the worst-hit areas by helping on a national scale, and that all the social evils which are present in our system are only exhibited to a greater degree in these particular localities—we have in the first place, at a time when economic recovery has set in, a standing army of 2,000,000 unemployed men. We have besides at least 1,000,000 families living under conditions which are unhealthy and unnatural owing to overcrowding, or which have been described by the Minister of Health in another place as "radiating centres of depravity and disease." We have, according to the Chief Medical Officer of Health, approximately 50,000 children who are either malnourished or under-nourished, that is to say, who are not provided with sufficient sustenance or sustenance adequate in quality to make them healthy, normal, happy, human beings. And the statistics do not include many mothers of families who starve themselves because they cannot endure to see their children withering before their eyes. We have besides—and it is all a symptom of this same phenomenon of unemployment and poverty—the rising rate of maternal mortality, and a rate which may be observed in the depressed areas to exceed by a very considerable extent the average over the whole country.
I am not suggesting that the Government do not wish to proceed on broader lines, but I am suggesting that they have not yet produced any measure which can be said to attack at the source the great social problems of unemployment and poverty. We maintain that the remedy should be sought in the first place by a bold scheme of public works on a national scale, and by a greatly accelerated housing programme. I am not denying that the Government have got a housing programme of their own, and one which is unique when compared with housing programmes which have been set up in the past; but the inadequacy and inefficiency of preceding Governments is not a standard that we can take when we wish to judge the merits of the Government now in office. The Commission on Housing, which was not composed of politicians but of housing experts primarily and of

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business men, suggested that a million houses were needed in the next ten years at an inclusive rent of under ten shillings a week. We believe that scheme is one which should be proceeded with, and we challenge the Government to tell us that their housing programme will go anywhere near that, or that they will be able to provide anything like that number of houses at the rent I have mentioned, which alone makes these houses at all a possible economic proposition for the lowest paid members of the working class.
And finally, it should be possible to raise the school-leaving age from fourteen to fifteen, and gradually to approach the upper limit of sixteen years. This, indeed, is a contribution to the unemployment problem on the one hand, because those children are taking work that could be done by men; and on the other hand, it would be a constructive human investment to make our working class more robust and more capable of exploiting the possibilities of life than they are at present. We believe, besides, that it, should be possible to open new channels on the land by afforestation, by land drainage, by schemes for making the surface of the soil fit for agriculture, and that this is a great undertaking which would employ many men and render the land suitable for cultivation in years to come.
My last word is this. We maintain quite frankly that public works, even on a national scale, are not enough. We believe that the roots of unemployment and poverty are fixed in a capitalist economy and that so long as we continue to labour under our present economic régime it will be impossible to cure either unemployment or poverty. Our grounds for that assertion are simply that, on the one hand, owing to the almost complete cessation of international trade, the capitalist system has reached its limits for the production of wealth; and that, on the other hand, under a system in which a small class, owing to its monopoly of the means of production, acquires a major share of the national income, there is bound to be a large section of the population living in poverty in order that a few may enjoy luxury. That is why, looking to these very deep-rooted causes, we challenge any scheme that the Government may intend to set up, and why, judging the present
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measure both as an immediate step to alleviate conditions in these areas and as a more far-reaching step towards alleviating unemployment and poverty, we cannot but consider it is entirely inadequate and merely trifling with a great problem which should be dealt with on an infinitely larger scale.
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I am not going to follow the noble Earl who has just addressed you upon the question whether the present difficulties in what I regard as distressed areas can best be met by State regulation of industry and by carrying it on under the different system advocated by the Socialist Party. What I rise to do is to ask two questions of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill. I may say that in the district from which I come, the County of Durham, distress has existed since 1926, when we had a very prolonged cessation of colliery operations in the County. Although things might have improved slightly in 1929, yet the distress of that County has been continuous ever since 1926, and during the last five years it has existed to an even greater extent than is the case at the present time. It does seem to me that the steps the Government are now taking come somewhat late in the day, or rather, I might put it this way, they ought to have taken steps two or three years ago at least to deal with the situation that has arisen. We have got to remember the condition of the men and the families who reside in the County of Durham owing to the loss of work for which they are well suited in the collieries—some 30,000, probably, out of work and their families all suffering; the shipbuilding yards all lying idle, both on the Tyne and Tees; and unemployment in the various limestone quarries, blast furnaces, and other industries in that district. There has been considerable distress, and it has been very sad for us to live amongst it, although we have been doing our utmost to try to secure work for as many people as we possibly could.
What I resent, and what the people of Durham resent, and probably the people of other districts resent as well, is what the noble Lord admitted to be the unfortunate title of the Bill—" depressed areas." I am going to ask the noble Lord and the Leader of this House if they would kindly see if it is not possible

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to meet what may be regarded as a somewhat sentimental objection, but is really a very strong objection that we have to that particular title. I see, on nearly every page of this Bill, the words "depressed areas." Is it not possible to amend the Bill throughout, and instead of calling them "depressed areas," to call them "distressed areas"? I believe it would be quite simple for the Government to introduce Amendments substituting "distressed areas" for "depressed areas" throughout. In that event the Title of the Bill would have to conform to the provisions of the Bill and subsequently be altered in the same way. I press that because we do resent the idea that we are necessarily depressed; we are only distressed owing to the conditions of trade and the lack of work in many of our industries.
The next point I want to press on the noble Lord is whether he cannot introduce an Amendment—I know it is no use our introducing an Amendment from this side of the House, unless it is to be accepted by the Government—to include in these areas the small area across the banks of the Tees. Here in this Bill you propose to deal with the distressed areas on both sides of the river Tyne—places like Wallsend and Newburn, which lie on the north bank, and on the other side, Jarrow and Hebburn, all named in the Bill, all struggling in the depression of the industries on each bank of the Tyne; but when you come to the Tees, you deal with the distress on one bank, and you decline to deal with it on the other. Of course, these districts are contiguous on both sides of the river; there are the same industries and the same class of people, and in the Middlesbrough area, and along the south bank of the Tees, in Cleveland, there is as much distress as there is in any part mentioned in the Bill. It does seem to me to be reasonable that the Commissioner who is dealing with the County of Durham and certain areas in Northumberland might have his duties extended to those places on the south bank of the river Tees. It is a matter that I believe has been raised in another place, and has not been met, but there is no reason whatever why this experiment—and I admit it is an experiment—in Durham and Northumberland should not be extended to this small area on the other side of the river Tees.
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In regard to the Bill generally, I have nothing to say except that I think it ought to have been introduced before this. It is an experimental measure, but it seems to me to go in the right direction. It is admittedly a matter on which £2,000,000 may be spent in the next three months, and the Government may come forward and say how much more may be spent in order to carry out, what is most desirable after this experiment has been made during the next three months. I take no exception to these provisions. I welcome the measure, and I am quite sure those who are associated with me on these Benches do the same.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, I would support as strongly as I can the appeal which has just been made by my noble friend Lord Gainford for the omission of the word "depressed," which appears in the Bill repeatedly, and the substitution for it of the word "distressed." The noble Lord speaks with great knowledge, as your Lordships are aware, of the feeling in this matter in the County of Durham; and, indeed, that feeling is not confined to the County of Durham. There have been letters in the newspapers protesting against the unnecessary use of this word, which is calculated to impede, in all probability, the action of the Commissioners, and in some ways to make it less agreeable for the persons concerned to co-operate with them. Indeed there was a remarkable letter in The Times the other day from the Bishop of Jarrow, who has great experience of the distressed area in the County of Durham, in which he expressed very strongly practically the same views as those which have just been stated by my noble friend Lord Gainford. Sentiment goes very far in dealing with such matters as employment, poverty, and social troubles of that sort, and if there is no necessity, as I believe there is no necessity, for using this word "depressed," which is so strongly objected to in many quarters, I do appeal to the Government to make the change necessary.
It will not hurt them; it will not hurt the Bill; it will be an improvement in the Bill. It is quite true that if an alteration is made in the operative part of the Bill a similar alteration will have to be made in the Title of the Bill. There is no difficulty in this House in altering the titles of Bills. It is continually done.

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I have made inquiry as to whether there would be any difficulty in altering the Title when the Bill goes back to another place, and I have been assured upon the highest authority on these matters of procedure in the House of Commons that there would be no difficulty whatever as far as procedure goes. What happens there is that if Amendments are introduced into a Bill which make it desirable to alter the Title, then the Title is altered. There is no Rule or Standing Order or anything else in the House of Commons against it. In these circumstances I urge the Government to make the alteration. I am glad to see in their places not only the noble Lord in charge of the Bill, who commended it to us so admirably, but also the noble Viscount who leads the House, and I appeal as strongly as I can to them to make this alteration which, I believe, will result in the smooth working of the BM and the removal of the objections which have been taken very widely against this wholly inappropriate adjective.
LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE: My Lords, I only want in a few minutes to say how much I support this Bill. I support it because I think it is the beginning of a movement by the Government to deal with this vast problem of our depressed areas, and also with small holding development. We have heard in another place that the Government are only too willing to accept all ideas, from whichever side of the House they may come. I hope, when the debates not only in your Lordships' House but in another place have been read, that many suggestions will have been made which will be of great value to the Commissioners and to the Departments concerned, and that those suggestions may be absorbed by them.
I was surprised to find that the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading of this Bill had expressed the view that the Commissioners were so very independent that they would be able to do practically as they liked in this matter. As a matter of fact, when you begin to look into the Bill, you find that they have to work through Departments and, of course, will have to justify expenditure to the Treasury. To my mind it would have been a better Bill if there had been more freedom, and a Board with an allocation of money. The mem-
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bers of such a Board would have been able to devote their talents to this question. After all, the success of this experiment is bound to rest on the character, quality, brains, and tenacity of the various Commissioners who are appointed. I hope and trust that they will be very successful. It is a problem that requires to be tackled, and it is a scheme, when it has been tried in these areas, which will undoubtedly be used by the Government as the basis of a much wider scheme for the development of small holdings and for helping the country to deal with the vast problem of unemployment. We have this great number of two millions unemployed, and I am certain that the problem of dealing with these two millions must be handled by the Government.
I do not want to delay your Lordships long this evening, but I would like to make a few observations on how best in these areas these Commissioners can work. Some years ago, in another place, I was Chairman of a Committee examining agriculture, and especially the problem of small holdings. I wandered in my search for knowledge into various parts of Europe, and I venture to say that if you are going to tackle the very difficult problem of small holdings you have to do it in a different way from that in which it was tackled by the Government after the War. Money was largely wasted in putting up buildings and all kinds of paraphernalia in connection with these small holdings. The best application of money in relation to small holdings that I have seen was in Germany. There they work from their depressed town or area outwards. First of all there is the provision of suitable land at no great distance from the place where the people live. Then there is the development of very cheap or free transport for individuals from the townships in which they live to the areas where they work their small holdings, and, finally and most important, the provision of markets for the produce. Not only in this way do you get a cheap development of the small holding idea, but afterwards, as it develops, as money is collected by the individual small holders, buildings can he placed on the various holdings.
The importance of markets in relation to small holdings is absolutely essential.

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Without markets the small holder gradually drifts into the production of a small amount of food for himself or his family. It is only when he can bring what he produces from a short distance away to townships, when he is able to sell what he produces at first hand to the consumer in the townships, that you can make a success of small holdings. I have examined one or two places in this country, and I am interested in a society dealing with the subject of markets. There is one experiment at East Grinstead, where a lot of ex-soldiers have been developing small holdings, and they have been most successful. In other parts of the country, in Norfolk especially, the marketing development has not been a success, largely because the produce gets into the hands of those who are handling foreign produce. It is that kind of thing which has to be carefully watched. It must be seen that the produce of the small holder does not get into the hands of those who are dealing with overseas produce. Marketing has to be done on a co-operative basis by the small holders themselves. Experiments are also going on now at Salisbury Plain and at Bulford, and I am sure the Secretary of State for War who leads the House will know a great deal of the efforts of the Commander-in-Chief of the Southern Command in this connection. They are just beginning to move in that direction and I congratulate the military authorities on giving an example to the civil authorities of the way in which these markets can be developed.
There is another point I should like to raise in connection with these depressed areas. It is too late for me to develop at any great length the various ways in which the small holding problem can be tackled, but I would like to express the hope that the Commissioners will not make the mistake of putting buildings on the land and trying to start small holdings in that way. The more practical way is to give men cheap transport from the district in which they live so that they can go backwards and forwards to their holdings. Another point I wish to bring to the notice of your Lordships is that very useful work can be done in some of the depressed areas on the coast by dealing with harbours. A lot of small harbours along our coasts are undoubtedly derelict and quite unfit for
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any trade at all. A great deal of work can be done there to develop a useful trade with small craft round the coast. The suggestion has been made before and I am very glad to bring it forward now. The last thing I wish to say is that I hope that this small sum of £2,000,000, which is altogether inadequate to deal with this vast problem—though I realise of course it is only for the rest of the financial year—will not be frittered away on too many different kinds of activities, but that the Commissioners will concentrate on two or three main schemes and try to carry them through to success, so that they may be an example of what can be clone and so that ultimately they can be applied to the whole country.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord who has just spoken with such refreshing vigour will forgive me if I say no more about his speech than that I fully agree with every word. In this non-Party atmosphere perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say that my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition wishes me strongly to support the plea of the noble Lord on the Liberal Benches, Lord Gainford, for a change in the Title of this Bill. We very much hope that the Government will give way to the arguments of the noble Lord and also those of the noble Lord opposite, Lord Danesfort.
I want to offer some very brief observations on this measure. My noble friend the Earl of Listowel, who spoke after the noble Lord, the Paymaster-General, referred to the young people and the tragic spectacle of unemployed youth in these districts, and the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, knows very well that the awful problem in Durham is accentuated by the fact that mothers who used to take pride in their boys going down the pit are now discouraging them from doing so. It is a most dreadful thing that the old family pride of the young men following in their fathers' footsteps is disappearing owing to the appalling conditions of the industry. My noble friend did not mention another very serious problem—that is, that the Commissioners, with the best will in the world, following out all the suggestions of the noble Lord who preceded me, will not be able to do much for the old people. There is a great tragedy for the elderly people who fall out of employment to-day and I very

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much regret that the Government have not undertaken some policy to help the aged. We had a most interesting debate a few months ago in your Lordships' House, initiated by my noble friend Lord Sanderson, with regard to children and the raising of the school age, but this problem of old people is particularly acute and their plight is all the worse in the distressed areas—to adopt what I hope will be the new term—because the younger members of the community will be moved away whenever possible. Surely the time has come when some boldness is required here, and I think the Government should consider lowering the pensionable age and raising the amount of the pension on condition that the pensioners leave gainful employment.
Last Sunday I assisted at an immense meeting held in one of the London suburbs, a non-party meeting attended by 2,000 people, to consider this very question. There is really a rising feeling in the country that there is something wrong with the body politic when you have elderly people toiling because of their poverty when they are really past work, while young men are standing idle at the street corners. If you can get the old people out of industry by lowering the pensionable age and increasing the amount of the pension, I believe you will do a great deal to help the position not only in the distressed areas but throughout the country. Such action needs great boldness, and when the Chancellor of the Exchequer says that we cannot afford it I would remind him that money paid out to old people in the form of pensions is all spent in this country over the shop counters and gives employment, and that in effect it does not cost the country anything.
There is one other matter want to deal with that has not been mentioned in the debate. I am sorry that the Government are not pursuing a vigorous policy with regard to afforestation. This refers particularly to the country from which the noble Lord, Lord Hutchison, comes. We are still importing £70,000,000 worth of timber into the country each year and the visible supplies of timber are diminishing. Except in New Zealand, there is very little new planting going on anywhere in the world although the consumption of timber for all the different industrial uses to which it is put is mount-
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ing all the time. We have only scratched at that problem in this country. This is a policy which, if really pursued in the most vigorous manner, would do a great deal to help the whole question of employment in this country and would help also to balance our economic position.
I want also to draw your Lordships' attention to what I consider is an extraordinary state of affairs, in regard to which I hone the noble Lord the Paymaster-General will be able to give your Lordships some information. It has been ventilated in the Press and it has been referred to in another place, and I think it is time that your Lordships took up the matter. It undoubtedly affects the distressed areas because it affects the shipping industry and therefore also the coal industry and the iron and steel industry. On the one hand, His Majesty's Government propose to subsidise the tramp shipping industry. On the other hand, we had the Bill before your Lordships' House for the Atlantic merger by which the country is committed to pay an immense subsidy for building two gigantic liners for the luxury trade across the Atlantic. So far so good. Many defenders can be found for both policies, for subsidising tramp shipping and for building luxury liners.
But there is a new type of transatlantic traffic that has arisen, traffic that caters for what I may call the small man who wants to go across the Atlantic cheaply. He is not a pauper. If he can get a passage across the Atlantic for £10 or £15 and buy food as he requires it he will be glad to go. He belongs to that great public who go on cruises to the Mediterranean and so on. If you look around industry to-day you will see that the callings that pay are those that cater for small people. Cinemas, cheap restaurants, small hotels, cheap forms of transport, the light motor car industry—all these are flourishing for the simple reason that they cater for the masses of comfortably-off people, not wealthy, not poor, but people who want the best that their money can afford. If you can attract that immense travelling public with a cheap line of special steamships—not the great luxury liners, in which you have to pay about ten pounds a day for the most modest quarters, combined with great luxury in catering and so on; not that type of ship at all, but the moderate-sized liner, which incidentally (and this

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will interest the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, as President of the Navy League) is only of use to you in wartime as an auxiliary cruiser or transport, whereas your great super-liners are not suitable for that purpose—that line will flourish too. It must be a line of smaller or medium-sized liners catering for the small man who wishes to cross the Atlantic cheaply. It is those which, according to the best opinion, could be made to pay.
Very well. Without any subsidies, without any assistance from the Government, a group was formed to purchase from the Americans the Red Star Line, which flies the Blue Ensign. It was to be a British company. The money was available, and a workable scheme was got out. It would have given employment to British officers and seamen, to dockside workers and so on, and later on it was intended to build new ships. And what happened? The Treasury, through the Bank of England, let it be known in the City of London—I am betraying no secret because this has been exposed to the world—that anyone providing that financial assistance would be persona non grata to His Majesty's Government; and things are so that a threat of that kind in the narrow upper circle of high finance in the City of London is equal to a command. I repeat, no subsidy was asked for, no assistance was asked from the State, and here was a businesslike proposal to run a new form of traffic which would not have competed with the luxury traffic organised by the Cunard-White Star Line, but His Majesty's Government come down, through their Treasury and through their connections with the Bank of England, and veto it. I see the Lord Chief Justice in his place; I would have thought that he would have had something to say about this matter, but I bring it to his attention now as a fair example, not of bureaucracy interfering with the liberty of the subject, but of bureaucracy by a sort of invisible form of government exercised by the Treasury, and avowed in another place by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
On the one hand, I repeat, subsidies for tramp shipping at the taxpayer's expense; on the other hand subsidies for the building of great luxury super-liners; immense distress in certain areas which is occasioning this Bill; and yet when people propose to act on their own account and bring in a new line of shipping traffic across the Atlantic they
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are vetoed by the Government, or rather those who are prepared to find the money are told that it will be made very uncomfortable for them, or that they will incur the displeasure of the highest authority who are in touch with the Government, if they do. That is a very extraordinary state of affairs, and I should like the Paymaster-General, if he will be so good, to say whether this matter has received further consideration. I am glad to say that when the matter was ventilated before, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not completely shut the door. I now understand that those who are fathering this enterprise are prepared to meet the Government with regard to not building ships except after a certain period, and no doubt in collaboration with the Board of Trade. That is the situation. I think it is deserving of your Lordships' attention, and I would request the Paymaster-General to give us what information he can. After all, this country's interest in and dependence upon its shipping are overwhelming, and it is because our overseas trade carried by our shipping is in such a condition of decline that your Lordships are asked to pass this Bill to-night. What I have said, therefore, has a direct bearing upon it, and I would beg your Lordships' attention to it.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies may I say one word in support of the suggestion which the noble Lord, Lord Hutchison, made with regard to the small harbours of this country? Let some of the money devoted to relieving unemployment be applied to improving the small harbours of this country. I would not detain your Lordships for a moment but for the fact that I have some special knowledge of this question owing to my life-long connection with the lifeboat service. I think it is true to say, and I do not think anybody can contradict it, that although we are the greatest maritime nation, the condition of our smaller harbours in the indented coastline of Great Britain and Ireland is far inferior to the condition of the harbours in almost any other country in the world. I raised this question in the House of Commons when I was first elected nearly thirty years ago, and I have been urging it ever since.
If I may, I would ask the noble Lord, bringing a fresh mind to bear upon the

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problem as he is now doing, to ask his Department to see whether what I say is not true, that totally unlike the small harbours of France, of Belgium, of Holland, of Germany, even of poor Portugal, which is poor in money, even of Spain and of course, of Italy, our small harbours, which used to be so vitally important to our fishing fleets, are now, in many cases, almost derelict. It is a most astonishing thing to see, as I see constantly as I am going about either inspecting lifeboats or in my own boat, wonderful little harbours which even when I was a boy bad a good depth of water and were properly buoyed and marked, now left really derelict, silted up and with no proper marks. If a survey be made of the coast of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and since we are speaking of lifeboats one would wish to include Southern Ireland, because fortunately the lifeboat service is still one, including that country, it will be found that there is an immense amount of work to be done. It would not involve the employment of millions of people, but it would involve the employment of a great many. It ought to be done, and any impartial man or any foreigner would certainly say, as many have said to me, that it ought to be done without delay.
I know that money is not unlimited, but as well as being the greatest maritime nation, we are undoubtedly the richest nation in Europe, and it does seem a strange thing, and it astonishes all those who come from abroad, whether they are here on life-saving service or not, that we allow our small harbours to decay more and more, while all other countries are caring for theirs with a view to encouraging their fishing fleets and facilitating their life-saving service. I would therefore respectfully beg my noble friend to bring his fresh mind to bear upon it and at last take the action which all of us would say is highly desirable in the interests of our naval supremacy on the one hand and our life-saving service on the other.
LORD ELTON: My Lords, I had certainly not intended to take part in this debate, and I am not going to detain your Lordships now for very long, but I have been very much inspired and interested by the succession of contributions made from all angles without any Party feeling, and if I may say so I have
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thoroughly agreed with the suggestions which fell not only from the noble Lord, Lord Hutchison, on this side of the House, but from the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, opposite. In the course of this brief discussion the only noble Lord who has advanced any criticism of the Bill is the noble Earl who first spoke from the opposite Benches, Lord Listowel. I do not intend to follow him into his possibly somewhat academic essay upon the rival merits of Socialism and Capitalism, but I would like to say just one word on his general criticism, which I take to be that this is a very small measure. I think the striking metaphor of the pill and the earthquake came from the Paymaster-General, but that was, I think, the general attitude adopted by Lord Listowel.
It is possible that it may prove to be a very small measure—I do not think we can tell yet—but I think that it contains within it very great possibilities. If the Commissioners use their powers as we all hope they will use their powers, and if their relations with the Government Departments prove to be what we all hope they will be, then I think that we shall have a road opened to us towards supplying something of the lack of which some of us who support the Government have been very sensible during the last few months. In the third subsection of Clause I the Commissioners are instructed to make suggestions to, and to co-operate with, the Government Departments—in the plural. This, my Lords, is an age of plans, and plans may be classified by their relative remoteness from reality. At the extreme end of the scale you have the professional theorist with his almost annual paper Utopias, of which one constant feature is their invariable divorce from reality. A little nearer reality you get the various apostles of the New Deal. I do not think that any actual new deal has produced any very striking material results for its people, but there is no doubt it has produced in more than one case astonishing psychological results and consequently immense political dividends. Mr. Lloyd George has recently announced that he is prepared to give us a new deal, and the gusto with which he announced it makes one suspect that the dealer is well aware of the position of the aces in the pack. That announcement is the kind of announcement, in the

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present state of public feeling, to win a ready response.
At the other extreme we have had our own Government proceeding along the line of steady advance, producing very solid results, but up to very lately leaving the public unhappily conscious of the lack of a new sense of direction. It does seem to rue that in this subsection, with its instruction to the Commissioners to make suggestions to Government Departments, if they really make suggestions and if the Government Departments are really going to co-operate with one another, we have the thin end of what may be a very valuable wedge. Personally I regard what the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, said with regard to the struggle between Socialism and Capitalism as almost as much out of date as the struggles between Tories and Whigs. What is wanted is not an "ism" but an empirical plan growing out of the novel age in which we are living. I think that if the Government will make the use of this Bill of which it is susceptible, we have there a valuable possible avenue towards that empirical plan which some of us are anxious to see.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, may I first of all pay my need of thanks to all the noble Lords who have spoken, for their response to this Bill? It seems to me that there has been very little actual criticism, but a good many statements have been made as to the insufficiency of the Bill, and the wish has been expressed in more than one quarter that the Government could see their way to go further. Speaking generally, I think the Government cannot be displeased with the reception which the Bill has received in this House. Having said that, may I deal seriatim with the points which have been raised? First as to my noble friend Lord Listowel. I should like to thank him for his contribution to the debate and to say, as to the constructive suggestions that he made, that I will see that they are brought to the attention of my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour. If they cannot be usefully employed in this connection I am quite sure that they will not be pigeon-holed, and I feel there is little doubt they may even yet be the germs which may be utilised on some future occasion. After all this is only an experimental Bill.
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Now, as regards my noble friend Lord Gainford, I confess quite frankly that he placed me in a little difficulty. He raised two points definitely, in addition to his general approbation of the Bill. As I understood him his two questions were, firstly, as regard the Title, and secondly, as to the extension of the area. Perhaps he will allow me to deal with the second point first. In reply to the point as to the extension of the area, I would say this, that Middlesbrough was not covered by the investigation, and in fact its unemployment figure, though high, is substantially lower than that of Jarrow. The line for experiment, I am sure he will appreciate, must be necessarily drawn with a certain arbitrariness, bat in this respect I do feel that it is defensible, and with the best will in the world the Government have come to the deliberate conclusion that, as regards this experiment, they are not able to extend the area covered by the Bill. I would in that connection reiterate what I tried to say in moving the Second Reading. I said that they have chosen those parts which by common consent are the worst in respect of unemployment, the worst in average, in particular localities, and in duration. The Government feel that it is essential for successful experiment that it should be concentrated as narrowly as possible on the areas most urgently in need of assistance, and while they do not for one moment suggest that there are not other areas which should be considered, they do not feel able to extend the areas as regards this experiment.
As regards the point that my noble friend raised as to the Title of the Bill, there I confess that he has a good deal of support in this House. My noble friend Lord Danesfort and my noble friend Lord Strabolgi, speaking as he said with the full authority of the Leader of the Opposition, supported that contention. I want to say, speaking as a member of the. Government, with a full sense of responsibility, that while I cannot concede the point at this moment I can say that the Government have given the matter most sympathetic consideration. The only suggestion I can make, in view of the extreme paucity of time, because we are going to ask your Lordships to give us all the remaining stages of the Bill to-morrow—and I make the suggestion with great

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diffidence and reservation—would be this, that if one of the noble Lords who have spoken to-night would put down an Amendment to delete the word "depressed" in order to insert the word "special" I would see that it was brought to the immediate attention of the Minister of Labour, and if any persuasive powers of mine are of value, I would do all I can to see that it has every possible consideration to-night. I would like to add, because we are so short of time, that scarcely think the word "distressed" instead of "depressed" would be suitable.
LORD GAINFORD: I do not like the word "distressed" myself, but it was the word used by the right reverend Prelate and referred to by the noble Lord. I think the word which he now suggests is a better one, and if the suggestion which he makes is carried out I believe it would be adopted.
LORD ROCHESTER: I think the noble Lord will agree that I was only quoting the right reverend Prelate. I want to make it abundantly clear that as I am speaking for another Department than my own I cannot commit the Government; but I can say that it has already received very sympathetic consideration, and if an Amendment is put down in this sense I will do all that in me lies to try and see whether I can persuade the Government to accept it. But I am sure noble Lords will appreciate that if am giving no pledge, and I feel that that is as far as I can go in answer to all those who have raised the question of Title.
My noble friend Lord Hutchison, if he will forgive my saying so, need make no apology for his contribution to the debate. It was most helpful and constructive, and it was especially valuable on the point as to how the Commissioners should encompass their task. He laid stress upon the importance of the provision of markets for small holders. I thank him for that suggestion, and assure him that it shall not be overlooked. In the absence of the Leader of the House perhaps I should be divulging no confidence if I told him that he has a very sympathetic hearer in the noble Viscount, because to my knowledge the War Office have actually lent their representative, to whom he referred, to the Commissioners who are being appointed under this Bill, so that
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the noble Lord can rest assured that his suggestions will receive the fullest possible consideration.
The next speaker was the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. He asked us for consideration for the aged. I can assure him that the Government need no conversion on that point. But it scarcely comes within the purview of this Bill. If he will allow me to take note of that contention, without suggesting for a moment that it can be dealt with in this connection, that is as much as I can do for him. As regards his suggestion about afforestation, I will see that that matter also is brought to the notice of my right honourable friend.
Then he came to another subject which is one which I feel I must deal with in rather more detail. He referred to the Red Star Line. Now, I should like to point out that the originator of that scheme proposed that the two ships should be built at Belfast. That was his original suggestion, and therefore it would scarcely help the difficulties that we are dealing with in this Bill. The originator's second proposal does not include the building of any ships, and I suggest therefore that the proposal as regards the Red Star Line would scarcely be of material assistance to the distressed areas. I noticed his remark about stewards and those who would be indirectly affected. But they would scarcely be so numerous as to make an appreciable impression upon the problem with which we are concerned. Nevertheless I will see that his request is not only noted, but is brought to the attention of the Treasury.
LORD STEABOLGI: One of the ships is coal-burning, so that has a greater effect, but I am really only linking it up with the distressed areas. Has the Paymaster General any further information as regards the Government's action, because the time is slipping away, and these ships may be bought by another nation?
LORD ROCHESTER: I will bring to the attention, of the Treasury the noble Lord's remarks, but I scarcely think that they come within the purview of this Bill.
LORD STRABOLGI: Will you communicate with the Treasury?
LORD ROCHESTER: I certainly will. As regards the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, he asked me to bring a fresh mind to the problem. I would remind him that I too am getting into "the sear, the yellow leaf," because I was in the House of Commons with the noble Lord, nearly thirty years ago and I remember the assiduity with which he has always stressed this point. A great deal is to be said for the survey to which he referred. He and Lord Hutchison dealt with the question of the small harbours round our coasts that are almost derelict. I can only say in that connection that as we are dealing with specific areas under this Bill it would not have that omnibus effect to which he referred, but it may be that his suggestion may possibly bear fruit in another connection, and I can assure him that no suggestion coining from him or from Lord Hutchison falls upon deaf ears as far as the Government are concerned. Perhaps in this connection he would allow me with great respect to pay my meed of praise to him for the invaluable and indefatigable work with which his name is always associated in our minds connected with the lifeboat service in this country.
As regards Lord Elton's speech I am sure he will not expect me to deal with it, because in essence it was rather a reply to the first speech to which we listened. I think I have now dealt with each one of the speeches made to-night. If there is any point I have missed I have not done it intentionally, but I do ask, in view of the close proximity of the Recess, that your Lordships will be good enough to give the Bill a Second Reading to-night, and I hope you will be equally good in allowing us to take all the remaining stages to-morrow. But if the Amendments to which I refer are put down they must be put down at once. As regards the Title, I will see that every consideration is given to that.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the very accommodating speech in which he has met all the criticisms, and on behalf of my noble friends I desire to say that we should appreciate very much the change from "depressed" to "special." That would meet our objections completely, and I understand that that Amendment is going to be put down in the name of a noble Lord from each Party, and we are depending on the
648
noble Lord to use his influence with the Department in question in order to get that Amendment accepted. I think perhaps the noble Lord just a little overstressed our enthusiasm for this Bill. We really do not regard it as anything very remarkable, but we hope it is an experiment that will succeed. I return to the simile that I used in an earlier part of the Session. I regard this as dealing with sores and wounds on the body, without really going to the fundamental cause which has produced them. It is like poulticing a mortifying limb, instead of really getting to the cause of the disease. But we wish it well, naturally, and we hope that the experiment will prove successful. The very fact that there is a line drawn round the area which prevents the Government from dealing with anything outside that line is in itself something in the nature of an absurdity. But we hope that the efforts that no doubt will be put into this enterprise will be successful.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, if I may speak again with permission of the House, may I thank the noble Lord for what he has said? I want to be equally frank as regards the Amendment. Though I used the singular there will he more than one, because apart from leaving out the word "depressed" in order to insert "special" it will be necessary to make a consequential Amendment in subsection (1) of Clause 1 and right through the Bill wherever the word appears.
LORD PONSONBY or SHULBREDE: We will have that done.
LORD ROCHESTER: In Clause 1 (1), line 11, it will be necessary to add words after the word "Act".
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Vice-President of Court of Appeal.
2.—(1) Subsection (4) of Section six of the principal Act shall have effect as if at the end thereof there were inserted the words following, that is to say—
"and may appoint to be Vice-President of that Court one of the Lords Justices of Appeal who shall preside when sitting and acting in any Division of the Court of Appeal if no ex officio Judge of that Court is sitting in that Division."
(2) For the purposes of giving effect to the provisions of the last foregoing subsection the amendments specified in the second column of the Schedule to this Act shall be made in the provisions of the principal Act specified in the first column of that Schedule.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SANKEY)THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SANKEY) moved, to add to the clause:
"(3) The provisions of this section shall not affect the persons holding office as Lords Justices of Appeal at the date of the passing of this Act and accordingly those persons shall have rank and precedence in all respects us if this Act had not been passed."
The noble and learned Viscount said: Your Lordships will remember that a difficulty arose with regard to the seniority of the present Lords Justices of Appeal if Clause 2 of this Bill remained as drafted. We were greatly indebted for a satisfactory solution of this difficulty to a suggestion made by the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, and I promised to put down an Amendment to secure the desired result. This is the Amendment which I am now proposing for your Lordships' acceptance. May I be permitted to add that it is a very happy ending, and one which gives me certainly great personal pleasure, that the names of the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, a former Lord Chief Justice, to whom we are so much indebted, and of Lord Howart, the present Lord Chief Justice, are coupled with my name in support of and in putting down the Amendment?
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 39, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, may I ask, in view of the urgent necessity of this Bill, whether it cannot be passed through its remaining stages to-morrow? The adjournment is on Friday, and if the Bill is passed through its remaining stages here to-morrow it can be sent to the other place in time.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am much obliged to the noble Lord. We propose to do as he suggests, and I hope the Bill will be sent to the House of Commons by Friday.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House whether it will be possible for us to meet at three o'clock to-morrow? I understand there is no judicial business.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I had not anticipated the business would take so long, but my noble friend thinks there will be a great deal to be said which will make it necessary for us to meet earlier. He has ascertained that there is no judicial business. I have also got the same information and, of course, we shall meet his wishes. My doubt was whether it would be necessary to meet earlier.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I do not want to press it. I thought it would be for the convenience of noble Lords who were going away.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: It is purely a matter of the convenience of the House. Perhaps I had better put it down for three o'clock.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I appreciate the fact that the noble Viscount is quite ready to meet me, but perhaps it would be more convenient for us to meet at the usual time.
House adjourned at six minutes before seven o'clock.

TAMWORTH ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1934.
  SWINDON GAS ORDER, 1934.
    MANSFIELD GAS ORDER, 1934.
      LIVERPOOL GAS ORDER., 1934.
      Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
SITTINGBOURNE AND MILTON URBAN DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1934.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order, that there is nothing in this Order to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House, and that they have considered a modification proposed by the Board of Trade and recommend its adoption to the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
WESTON-SUPER-MARE GAS (No. 2) ORDER, 1934.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the special Order, that the Order contains departures from precedent which have been satisfactorily explained to the Committee, that they have received and considered a Report from the Board of Trade upon the Order, and that they have considered a modification proposed by the Board of trade and recommend its adoption to the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
BOURNEMOUTH GAS ORDER, 1934.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order, that they have received and considered a Report from the Board of Trade upon the Order; that the Committee have doubts whether the Order is intra vires in its present form, but that modifications have been proposed by the Board of Trade to remove these doubts and that the Committee have considered the proposed modifications and recommend their adoption to the House, an undertaking having been given to the Committee by the Bournemouth Gas and Water Company that they will apply forthwith for a new Order or Bill to extend their limits of supply to include certain areas which have been excluded by the proposed modifications: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.