Sitting of 13 November 1933

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  INDIA.

    ADEN.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for India whether His Majesty's Government have come to any decision with regard to the proposed transfer of the administration of Aden from the Government of India to the Colonial Office, in view of the fact that both Houses of the Central Legislature of India, to whom the matter was referred by the Government of India, have unanimously opposed such transfer?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Sir Samuel Hoare): No decision has yet been reached.

    HOUSES REQUISITIONED, PESHAWAR.
    Mr. D. GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that 18 Indian families in Peshawar have been informed by the military authorities that they are to yield possession and tenancy of their homes on the ground of public necessity; that these houses have been for more than 80 years in the occupation of these families and are privately owned, and have been in peaceful possession for the full period of the cantonment at Peshawar; whether the rights of the owner-tenants have been examined by him as a result of the representations made to him; and whether he will authorise an inquiry, so that the protests or other representations made by the 18 Indian house-owners may be fully considered?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have no doubt that the Government of India acted within their legal powers and after full consideration of all the circumstances.
    Mr. GRENFELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the matter
    536
    should be left where it is? Will he give his personal attention to it and report to the House?
    Sir S. HOARE: I am satisfied that no injustice was done and that this was the only action that could be taken in the circumstances. If, however, the hon. Gentleman would like information, I will obtain it for him.

    RAILWAY ORDERS.
    Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOXasked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the Government of India has recently ordered railway equipment from the Royal Hungarian State workshops, which are subsidised by the Hungarian Government, so enabling them to supply equipment at uneconomic prices, and that British bondholders have agreed not to enforce their claims for interest due on loans granted to the Hungarian Government; and whether he will take steps to ensure that the British locomotive builder is not, in this way driven from the Indian market?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir WALTER SMILESasked the Secretary of State for India if he is aware that the Indian Government is placing substantial orders for locomotive work with Hungarian State shops, whose operations are subsidised by a Government which is in default to British bondholders; and if he will suggest that all such orders should be placed in future with British firms?
    Sir S. HOARE: The subject which these questions raise is principally one for the consideration of the Treasury. So far as I am concerned, I am aware that orders for locomotive equipment have recently been placed with the Royal Hungarian State Iron and Steel Works. This is in accordance with the practice which has been frequently explained in this House and which I am not in a position to alter.
    Sir A. KNOX: Is it not possible for the right hon. Gentleman to make representations to the Treasury, as it is an impossible situation that money due to British bondholders should be used to subsidise employment in Hungary?
    Sir S. HOARE: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman had better put a question to the Treasury.

    MR. SUBHAS CHANDRA BOSE.
    Sir W. SMILESasked the Secretary of State for India if he will represent to the Government of India that Mr. Subhas Chandra Bose, ex-Mayor of Calcutta, should be re-arrested on his return to India on the ground of his disloyal and hostile conduct during the period of his release from detention in Bengal in order to proceed to Switzerland for medical treatment?
    Sir S. HOARE: In releasing Mr. Bose, the Government of India retained complete freedom of action in the event of his return to India.

    ANDAMAN ISLANDS.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the fact that the Report of the Indian Gaols Committee was accepted by the Government of India, which intimated in March, 1921, its decision to abandon the Andaman Islands as a penal settlement., he can explain what steps have been taken to carry out that decision; and how many of the six or seven thousand prisoners still in the Andamans can be classed under the heading of political prisoners?
    Sir S. HOARE: Since 1921 the convict population in the Andamans has been reduced from 11,500 to 6,500. Owing mainly to lack of gaol accommodation in India itself, it has not been found practicable to make any more speedy

    Imports into India of Hosiery (including Stockings and Socks, Underwear and other sorts)* from Japan, from January, 1930.

    Value—Rupees.

    —

    1930.

    1931.

    1932.

    1933.

    January

    …

    …

    …

    10,19,056

    3,16,378

    2,17,672

    4,02,878

    February

    …

    …

    …

    11,60,922

    3,45,969

    1,73,415

    3,61,105

    March

    …

    …

    …

    11,05,614

    3,93,505

    2,98,537

    4,57,618

    April

    …

    …

    …

    9,90,044

    2,93,241

    3,84,093

    5,01,360

    May

    …

    …

    …

    10,15,942

    2,42,991

    4,32,940

    6,24,800

    June

    …

    …

    …

    8.98,216

    2,71,474

    5.63,616

    5,66,840

    July

    …

    …

    …

    5,21,914

    2,73,770

    6,53,058

    5,83,063

    August

    …

    …

    …

    6.41,670

    3,98,863

    7,30,629

    9,72,797

    September

    …

    …

    …

    5,63,448

    5,11,235

    7,19,858

    October

    …

    …

    …

    9,93,628

    8,17,135

    6,19,667

    November

    …

    …

    …

    6,21,264

    4,35,601

    4,48,774

    December

    …

    …

    …

    9,49,359

    2,24,740

    3,38,406

    Total for year.

    Total for eight months.

    98,81,077

    45,24,902

    55,80,665

    44,70,461

    * Separate figures for each of these classes of hosiery are not at present available for any later period than the year ending March, 1932.

    reduction, but vigorous steps have been taken to improve the conditions of life in the settlement, particularly from a health point of view, and the malaria swamps have been cleared at a cost of 23 lakhs of rupees. The settlement is gradually being transformed into a free colony, and transportation is now normally on a voluntary basis. There is no separate classification of political prisoners under Indian rules, and I cannot therefore answer the last part of the question, but I have already told the House that no civil disobedience prisoners or detenus have been sent to the Andamans.

    JAPANESE IMPORTS.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for India what increase in Japanese hosiery imports into India has taken place during the past year, and the number of hosiery factories in India closed down during the same period?
    Sir S. HOARE: I am circulating some statistics in reply to the first part of the question. I have no information in regard to the second part.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to secure the information sought in the last part of the question?
    Sir S. HOARE: Yes, I will look into that request.
    Following are the statistics:
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the protest of the Burma Indian Chamber of Commerce to the Government of India on 26th September with reference to the dumping of rice by Japan in India; and what steps, if any, the Government of India propose to take in the matter?
    Sir S. HOARE: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. No doubt the Government of India are taking account of it in connection with the negotiations which are now in progress.
    Mr. SMITH: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government of India are being urged to take any action, and, if so, the nature of such action?
    Sir S. HOARE: No; I have no information to that effect.

    FLOODS.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for India what area of the Rohtak district of Orissa has been affected by floods; the number of villages destroyed and people rendered homeless; and what steps are being taken to help such victims?
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Secretary of State for India whether he can give any estimate as to the amount of damage caused by the recent rains in Delhi, Rohtak, and the adjoining districts; and what steps are being taken to prevent a recurrence of the flooding?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have no information beyond what has appeared in the Press, but I will make inquiries from the Government of India if the hon. Member so desires.

    IRRIGATION SCHEMES.
    Duchess of ATHOLLasked the Secretary of State for India if he will state the number of irrigation schemes submitted by provincial governments which have been approved since 1921; and the total expenditure sanctioned on such schemes?
    Sir S. HOARE: The information is being collected and will be circulated when ready.

    PLAGUE, POONA.
    Mr. R. DAVIESasked the Secretary of State for India whether he can
    540
    give the House any information as to the prevalence of plague in Poona; and what steps are being taken to combat it, and with what success?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have no recent information except what has appeared in the Press, but I will make inquiries if the hon. Member so desires.

    ROADS.
    Duchess of ATHOLLasked the Secretary of State for India whether the powers to schedule certain roads as of military importance, to prescribe the method of construction and maintenance of such roads, and the amount to be spent on them by provincial governments reserved to the Governor-General in Council under No. 12A of the Devolution Rules have been delegated to the Road Board?
    Sir S. HOARE: So far as I am aware, no such delegation has been made.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: Are we to understand that these most important powers are being exercised by the Governor-General in Council?
    Sir S. HOARE: If no such delegation as the noble Lady mentions has been made, that would be the case.

    MARRIAGE REGISTRATION (SARDA ACT).
    Major MILNERasked the Secretary of State for India whether he will consider the advisabilty of instructing the Government of India to make the registration of marriages compulsory throughout India in order to make the Sarda Act more effective?
    Sir S. HOARE: This is a matter which has recently been fully considered by the Government of India and Provincial Governments. The subject is a Provincial Transferred subject, and I must therefore leave the decision to the Provincial Governments.

    OUTRAGES
    Duchess of ATHOLLasked the Secretary of State for India the number of murders and outrages generally committed by terrorists in Bengal in 1932, and for such months of 1933 as figures are available?
    Sir S. HOARE: I am circulating a tabular statement. The totals are 75 for 1932 and 11 for the first six months of 1933.
    Following is the statement:
    Classified Statement of Outrages, etc., in Bengal in 1932 and 1933.

    1932.

    1933 (first six months).

    Murderous outrages

    5

    1

    Attempts at outrages

    6

    1

    Dacoities

    31

    3

    Attempted dacoities

    2

    —

    Robberies

    19

    3

    Attempted robberies

    6

    3

    Bomb throwing

    3

    —

    Bomb explosions

    2

    —

    Armed raids

    1

    —

    Total

    75

    11

    CENSUS.
    Major MILNERasked the Secretary of State for India whether the Report and full census figures of India are now available to Members of this House?
    Sir S. HOARE: One copy of Volume I of the Report, which contains the all-India figures, has been received and can be consulted at the India Office. Other copies are on their way from India, and one will be placed in the Library of the House on their arrival. Most of the other volumes, which contain the figures of individual provinces, states, cities, etc., are available at the India Office. In accordance with precedents it is not proposed to place these in the Library.

    MURDER, MIDNAPORE.
    Mr. STOURTON (for Mr. Law)asked the Secretary of State for India what provision is being made for the widow of the late Mr. B. E. J. Burge?
    Sir S. HOARE: I hope that this matter will be shortly settled, and I shall certainly deal with it most sympathetically when I receive the Government of India's recommendations. I have reason to hope that, pending a decision, Mrs. Burge is not being embarrassed by the delay.
    Mr. DORANasked the Secretary of State for India what steps have been taken by the Indian Government to secure the arrest of those persons connected with the assassination of Mr. R. Burge in Midnapore; if any persons have been arrested so far; and what precautions have been taken to afford the new magistrate additional safeguard?
    Sir S. HOARE: Of the two actual assailants, one was shot dead and the other died of his wounds. I understand that nearly 40 arrests were subsequently made in connection with the murder, and that the trial of 13 accused is about to begin. In addition to the necessary personal protection for the new magistrate, further steps have been taken to control the movements of Hindu youths, to quarter additional police, and to strengthen the Intelligence Service.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: Is it the case, as has been alleged, that the first official sent down to Midnapore from Calcutta went, not to inquire into the circumstances of the murder, but to investigate some allegation that had been made against the police?
    Sir S. HOARE: No, Sir. I have seen that statement made before. It is grossly and entirely untrue.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    JAPANESE COMPETITION.
    Mr. R. 0DAVIESasked the Secretary of State for India whether he can make any statement as to the results of the conferences of the Lancashire textile delegation with the Indian millowners and the delegates from Japan?
    Lieut.-Colonel J. COLVILLE (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): I have been asked to reply. As indicated in the reply which my right hon. Friend gave on 7th November, a statement of the agreement reached between the United Kingdom Textile Delegation and certain representatives of the Indian industry has already been published in the Press. A statement has also been published regarding the Anglo-Japanese textile industry conversations at Simla. The hon. Member will appreciate that while the Government took the initiative in suggesting these discussions, the arrangements for the United Kingdom Delegation were made by organisations representing the industries concerned, and further information will not be available until the delegation has reported to those organisations. The delegation returned on Saturday, 11th November, and will present its report to the Lancashire Committee on Japanese competition on Tuesday. I understand that a statement will be made to the Press on Wednesday.
    Mr. DAVIES: In view of the tremendous interest that must be taken in Lancashire, particularly regarding the work of this delegation, will it be possible to secure a copy of that report otherwise than through the Press or direct from the delegation itself? Is the Government contemplating issuing a report?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: The report is from the industrial delegation to the parent body, so I cannot answer that question.

    CONTRACT, LATVIA.
    Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what communications have passed between his Department and British firms in a position to tender for the construction of the hydro-electric power station across the River Daugava, in Latvia?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: My hon. Friend will appreciate that the terms of communications between the Department of Overseas Trade and firms are necessarily confidential, but whenever a real prospect of remunerative business arises, it is at once brought to the notice of British manufacturers through the usual channel.
    Mr. HANNON: Will my hon. and gallant Friend make it clear to the House that in every case of this kind his Department will do what it can to secure the offer of these contracts to British manufacturers?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: Yes, Sir, I can give that assurance to my hon. Friend. Members of the Department do and will do their best to make them known.

    Commercial Agreements in force with Countries the produce and manufactures of which are entitled in the United Kingdom to most-favoured-nation treatment in the matter of Customs Duties.

    Country

    Insturment and Date of Signature,

    When Terminable.

    Abyssinia

    …

    Treaty, May 14th, 1897

    …

    No provision for termination.

    Albania

    …

    Notes, June 10th, 1925

    …

    At any time on 3 months' notice.

    Argentine

    …

    Treaty, February 2nd, 1825

    …

    No provision for termination.

    Austria

    …

    Treaty, May 22nd, 1924

    …

    February 11th, 1935, or thereafter on 12 months' notice.

    Belgium

    …

    Notes, July 27th, 1898

    …

    At any time on 3 months' notice.

    Bolivia

    …

    Treaty, August 1st, 1911

    …

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Brazil

    …

    Notes, September 11th, 1931

    …

    September 10th, 1934, or thereafter on 6 months' notice.

    Bulgaria

    …

    Notes, November 12th, 1925

    …

    At any time on 3 months' notice.

    Chile

    …

    Notes, October 15th, 1931

    …

    At any time on 15 days' notice.

    China

    …

    Treaty, December 20th, 1928

    …

    No provision for termination.

    Colombia

    …

    Treaty, February 16th, 1866

    …

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Czechoslovakia

    …

    Treaty, July 14th, 1923

    …

    At any time on 12 months' notice

    TREATIES (MOST-FAVOITRED-NATION TREATMENT).
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the President of the Board of Trade how many and with which countries is there a commercial treaty in operation with a most-favoured-nation clause; what notice has to be given for the withdrawal of this privilege; and whether such notice has been given in any case?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: As the answer contains a tabular statement I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. There are commercial agreements in force with 43 countries under which the produce and manufactures of these countries are entitled to most-favoured-nation treatment in the United Kingdom in the matter of Customs duties. The following list shows the countries concerned and indicates the period of notice of denunciation which operates in each case. In no case has notice of termination been given.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Can my hon. and gallant Friend say, generally, whether it is the policy of the Department now that we are making tariff arrangements with particular countries to deal with that country only and not have the matter complicated by having to think of its effect on other countries who have treaties with a most-favoured-nation clause?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: That is too big a matter to review in reply to a question.
    Following is the statement:

    Country.

    Instrument and Date of Signature.

    When Terminable.

    Denmark

    …

    Treaty, February 13th, 1660–1; July 11th, 1670. Agreement, April 24th, 1933.

    No provision for termination. June 20th, 1936.

    Egypt

    …

    Notes, June 7th, 1930

    February 16th, 1934, unless further prolonged.

    Estonia

    …

    Treaty, January 18th, 1926

    At any time on 12 months' notice(1).

    Finland

    …

    Treaty, December 14th,1923 and Agreement, September 29th, 1933 (2).

    At any time on 6 months' notice.

    Germany

    …

    Treaty, December 2nd, 1924

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Greece

    …

    Treaty, July 16th, 1926

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Guatemala

    …

    Treaty, February 22nd, 1928

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Hayti

    …

    Notes, February 25th, 1928

    At any time on 6 months' notice.

    Hungary

    …

    Treaty, July 23rd, 1926

    July 26th, 1937, or thereafter on 12 months' notice.

    Iceland

    …

    Treaty, February 13th, 1660–1; July 11th, 1670.

    No provision for termination.

    Agreement, May 19th, 1933

    June 27th, 1936, and thereafter on 6 months' notice.

    Italy

    …

    Treaty, June 15th, 1883

    At any time on 12 months' notice.;

    Japan

    …

    Treaty, April 3rd, 1911.

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Latvia

    …

    Treaty, June 22nd, 1923

    At any time on 12 months' notice.(3).

    Lithuania

    …

    Notes, May 6th, 1922

    At any time on 3 months' notice.

    Netherlands

    …

    Treaty, October 27th, 1837

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Nicaragua

    …

    Treaty, July 28th, 1905

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Norway

    …

    Convention, March 18th, 1826

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Agreement, May 15th, 1933

    July 7th, 1936.

    Panama

    …

    Treaty, September 25th, 1928

    April 8th, 1939, or thereafter on 12 months' notice.

    Persia

    …

    Treaty, May 10th, 1928

    In force provisionally.

    Poland

    …

    Treaty, November 26th, 1923

    At any lime on 3 months' notice.

    Portugal

    …

    Treaty, August 12th, 1914

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Roumania

    …

    Treaty, August 6th, 1930

    May 12th, 1934, or thereafter on 6 months' notice.

    Salvador

    …

    (Notes, August 8th, 1931, provisional)

    September 15th, 1934.

    Siam

    …

    Treaty, July 14th, 1925

    May 30th, 1936, or thereafter on 12 months' notice.

    Spain

    …

    Convention, April 5th, 1927

    At any time on 3 months' notice.

    Sweden

    …

    Convention, March 18th, 1826

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Agreement, May 15th, 1933

    July 7th, 1936.

    Switzerland

    …

    Treaty, September 6th, 1855

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Turkey

    …

    Treaty, March 1st, 1930

    November 3rd, 1935, or thereafter on 12 months' notice.

    United States

    …

    Convention, July 3rd, 1815

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    Venezuela

    …

    Treaty, April 18th, 1825

    No provision for termination.

    Yugoslavia

    …

    Treaty, May 12th, 1927

    At any time on 12 months' notice.

    (1) Extended to 15 months by Notes, July 15th, 1933, which operate until July 21st, 1934.

    (2) The Agreement of September 29th, 1933, has not yet been ratified; it will remain in force for three years from its date of coming into force and thereafter will be subject to termination on six months' notice. It provides that no notice of termination of the Treaty of 1923 shall take effect during the currency of the Agreement.

    (3) Extended to 15 months by Notes, July 6th, 1933, which operate until July 14th, 1934.

    NORWEGIAN GRANITE SETTS AND KERBS.
    Sir BASIL PETOasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that, since the signing on the 15th May last of the trade agreement with Norway, in which the Government undertook not to
    546
    increase the present tariff on granite setts and kerbs above 15 per cent., in four months, May to August (inclusive), the imports from Norway into this country have been 65 per cent. higher than the same months last year; and whether the Government propose to resume their liberty to protect this branch of the

    547
    quarrying industry in this country at the earliest possible date?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Dr. Burgin): According to the official records imports of granite setts and kerbs from Norway in the period May to August, 1933, exceeded those of the same period in 1932 by some 51 per cent., but imports from that country are still much lower than in 1931 and earlier years. The commercial agreements recently entered into with Norway, Sweden and Finland provide that no increase in the duty on granite setts and kerbs produced in these countries shall be made during their currency.

    FRANCE.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade if he can give particulars of the Franco-British trade agreement which has been signed in Paris?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: As far as I am aware no such agreement has been concluded recently.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Do I understand that the statements in the Press are without any foundation?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: There is no such agreement.

  PASSPORTS.
  Mr. McENTEEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many new passports have been granted in the past year; what has been the extra cost of such passports; and whether this Department is now making a profit or losing money?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Eden): The number of new passports issued during the 12 months ended on 30th September last was 114,437. I regret that I am not clear as to the meaning of the second part or the hon. Member's question. The total cost of the Passport Office has at no time exceeded the revenue derived from passport fees.

  GERMANY.

    BRITISH CLAIMS.
    Sir ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUELasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the German authorities are discriminating on the defaulted German foreign obligations to the disadvantage of British creditors and traders as compared with other foreign creditors and traders; and will he suggest to the German authorities that an exchange clearing by Britain, an import limit on German goods, and a control regulation of Anglo-German trade will provide a convenient method by which the annual balance of approximately £12,000,000 of Anglo-German trade in favour of Germany can be used to avoid the discrimination between equally ranking foreign creditors of Germany now operating to the disadvantage of British creditors and traders?
    Mr. EDEN: Representations on this matter have recently been made to the German Government. I am not in a position to make any further statement at present.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a preferential treatment is being given to Switzerland and Holland against us?
    Mr. EDEN: My right hon. Friend has already made representations on the matter raised by the question.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: Does not the Government propose to take any action in regard to what in British law would be an illegal preference by a defaulting debtor against a creditor?
    Mr. EDEN: I think that we had better await the outcome of the representation.

    DISARMAMENT
    Mr. COCKSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will publish the Final Report of the Inter-Allied Commission for the Supervision of the Disarmament of Germany?
    Mr. EDEN: The Final Report of the Inter-Allied Military Control Commission in Germany was communicated to the League by the Ambassadors' Conference on the 22nd July, 1927, and is retained in the archives of the League Secretariat at Geneva. The question of its publication would be a matter for the League.

  IRAQ (ASSYRIANS).
  Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is taking any, and, if so, what steps to secure safety and justice for the Assyrians in Iraq?
  Mr. EDEN: The future of the Assyrians is at present being considered by a committee of the Council of the League of Nations. This committee was set up on 14th October last by the Council of the League of Nations, when it considered the Assyrian problem at the request both of the Assyrian Patriarch and of the Iraqi Government. The first duty of this committee, on which His Majesty's Government are represented, is to seek, in collaboration with the Iraqi Government a means of settling outside Iraq, those Assyrians who may wish to leave the country. This task is being actively proceeded with. In the meanwhile the Iraqi Government have provided additional police protection on a considerable scale in the areas where Assyrians reside. They have also taken measures, which have been entrusted to the supervision of British officers in the service of the Iraqi Government, to care for the families left destitute in consequence of the deplorable events of last summer, and to rebuild and re-stock villages wholly or partly destroyed during those events.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Who is responsible for our scuttling out of Iraq without protecting these people, and why was I falsely informed in the House at the time that all necessary precautions were being taken to safeguard them?
  Mr. EDEN: I am afraid the actions to which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman refers were taken by a previous Government.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I know they were taken by a previous Government, but they were taken by British officials out there.
  Mr. EDEN: The responsibility must clearly be the responsibility of the Government.

  BRITISH TRAWLERS "DANE" AND "ST. BRELADE."
  Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement with regard to
  550
  the recent incident in the White Sea, when the British trawlers "Dane" and "St. Brelade" were boarded by armed seamen from a Russian inspection ship and forced at the point of a revolver to sign a document in Russian in connection with unlawful fishing?
  Mr. EDEN: I have no information beyond what has appeared in the Press. My right hon. Friend is, however, now awaiting the receipt of reports which are expected shortly from the British Vice-Consul at Tromsö and from the masters of the vessels concerned.
  Mr. HANNON: Have the Government asked the Vice-Consul for a report or is he dependent entirely on the announcement in the "Times"?
  Mr. EDEN: We have asked for a report.

  RUSSIA.

    LENA GOLDFIELDS LTD. (ARBITRAL AWARD).
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present position with regard to the demand for payment by the British Government from the Russian Soviet Government of the arbitral award of approximately £13,000,000 in favour of Lena Goldfields Limited; and what proposals have been made in this regard in the course of the negotiations still in progress relating to the new temporary trading agreement between this country and Russia?
    Mr. EDEN: Inasmuch as the Soviet Government have made no further offer in respect of the claim of the Lena Gold-fields Limited, the position with regard to this claim remains as stated in the reply returned by the Lord President of the Council to my hon. Friend on 13th March last. The importance which His Majesty's Government attach to a settlement of the claim has been impressed upon the Soviet representatives during the present trade negotiations. No fresh proposals for a settlement have so far resulted, but the matter is still under discussion.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the House to understand that the British Government are now negotiating a further agreement with the Soviet Government without hav-

    551
    ing obtained satisfaction for breach of a previous trading agreement, damage having been ascertained by an arbitral tribunal and payment having been refused?
    Mr. EDEN: The matter is still under discussion, and I clearly cannot say more.
    Sir W. DAVISON: What is the object of negotiating a fresh agreement with a Government which has declined to fulfil a previous agreement?
    Sir B. PETO: May I ask the categorical question, whether His Majesty's Government propose to enter any further agreement, either temporary or permanent, with the Soviet Government until that Government recognise satisfactorily the claims of British nationals?
    Mr. HOLFORD KNIGHT: May the House take it that the discussion of these claims will not be allowed to impede the conclusion of an agreement, which is so important to the trade and industry of this country?
    Sir MURDOCH McKENZIE WOOD: Does the hon. Gentleman realise the situation which has been created at Yarmouth just now by the failure of these agreements with the Russians?

    PROPAGANDA.
    Sir A. KNOXasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been drawn to the issue by the Comintern in Moscow to Communist agents in India of detailed instructions for subversive activities against the rule of Britain in India; and what steps he proposes to take?
    Mr. EDEN: I have seen a Press statement to this effect; and my right hon. Friend has called for a report on the matter from His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow.

  DANZIG.
  Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action His Majesty's Government proposes to take in connection with the suppression of two newspapers at Danzig, the imprisonment of their editors, and the exclusion from the police and official posts of all who are not Nazis?
  Mr. EDEN: I have not yet received the communication referred to by my
  552
  right hon. Friend in reply to the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on 8th November. My right hon. Friend has asked me to take this opportunity to correct a misapprehension arising out of that reply. It was Mr. Rosting, the Acting High Commissioner, and not Mr. Lester, who made the appeal to the League of Nations referred to in that question.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether there is any possibility of a change in the representation at Geneva and at Danzig?
  Mr. EDEN: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman mean the High Commissioner? Yes, Sir.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: When will the change take place?
  Mr. EDEN: I think in January.

  CONSULAR FEES (PAYMENT, GENEVA).
  Sir W. DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the British Consular representative at Geneva refuses to accept English money in payment of Consular fees, and requires payment in Swiss currency at the old parity of 25 francs to the £, which necessitates an expenditure of approximately 30s. in payment for a stamp marked £1; and whether this has the approval of the British Government?
  Mr. EDEN: I am aware of the position stated and it has the approval of His Majesty's Government. Under the terms of Note 5 to the Consular Fee Table, which forms a part of the Consular Fees Order-in-Council (No. 1) of 1921 and has the force of law, British currency, except gold coin, may not be accepted in payment of Consular fees; and, if these fees are collected in local currency, the currency equivalent of the sterling fees must be calculated at a rate not lower than the par rate of exchange.
  Sir W. DAVISON: Is a similar practice adopted in cases where the currency is at a discount? Surely, it is very unfair that a person should have to pay thirty shillings for a one pound stamp in a country where there is appreciation of

  553
  currency as compared with the £ and not have the benefit in a country where the £ is at a discount?
  Mr. EDEN: I am afraid that I must have notice of that question.

  CUBA.
  Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the continued bloodshed in Cuba and to the decree of President San Martin declaring a state of war following the third revolution within three months; and if he will consult with the United States Government with a view to avoiding further loss of life and the protection of British residents in the island?
  Mr. EDEN: Yes, Sir, my right hon. Friend's attention has been drawn to this situation, and His Majesty's Government are watching developments closely. My right hon. Friend does not feel, however, that such consultation as my hon. Friend suggests would serve any useful purpose at the present moment. I am happy to say that His Majesty's Minister has reported that there are no British casualties, and I have every confidence that he will continue to take such steps as seem most appropriate with a view to affording protection to British residents.
  Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: Is my hon. Friend aware that if this undesirable state of things is allowed to continue in Cuba, it may have a very important bearing upon and repercussions in other parts of the world?
  Sir A. M. SAMUEL: Is this not a case where His Majesty's Government might well invoke the good offices of the great Republic of South America?

  AGRICULTURE.

    IMPORTED EGGS.
    Sir JOHN WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Minister of Agriculture what quantity of eggs has been imported into the United Kingdom from the Dominions in the past 12 months as compared with the previous three years; and what regulations exist to prevent the sale of such eggs as new-laid?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): The quantity of eggs in shell imported into the United Kingdom from the Dominions during the year ended 30th September, 1933, amounted to about 5,800,000 great hundreds. During the previous two years imports were at about the same level, while in the year ended 30th September, 1930, the quantity imported amounted to 5,600,000 great hundreds. I am not aware that the term "New Laid" has been legally defined, but my hon. Friend will realise that as all imported eggs are required to be marked with an indication of origin, this in itself is evidence, so far as imports from distant countries are concerned, that the eggs have been chilled or otherwise preserved.
    Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNE: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it has been brought to his notice that these marks of Origin are not always clear?

    WHEAT IMPORTS.
    Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Minister of Agriculture to what extent bounty-fed wheat has been imported into this country in the past year; and what action is being taken to counteract these unfair imports and restore fair conditions to the growers in this country?
    Mr. ELLIOT: During the 12 months ended 31st October, 1933, wheat was, so far as I am aware, imported into the United Kingdom from only one country, namely, France, in which there was is operation a direct bounty on exports. Imports from France during that year were practically confined to the months of August and September, and formed a negligible proportion of the total imports of wheat during the year. The imports from France have ceased for the time being, as it is understood that the trade is now unprofitable, owing to the low price of wheat in this country and the high price in France. In reply to the last part of the question, I would remind my hon. Friend that wheat growing in this country has been dealt with under the Wheat Act, 1932, and I do not consider that any further action is called for at the present time.
    Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNE: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the bounty system is still in operation?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I am afraid that I cannot do so without notice.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not the case that poultry feeders enjoy the luxury of a short price for bounty-fed wheat as a, feeding-stuff in this country?
    Mr. ELLIOT: That is one of the factors in the situation.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether the wheat imported into this country in the month of October from Russia was not valued on a much lower average than the wheat from other countries?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I am afraid that I should need notice of that question.

    PIGS AND BACON.
    Marquess of TITCHFIELDasked the Minister of Agriculture whether any losses made by pig curers will be sustained by the producers in future contracts?
    Mr. ELLIOT: The insurance scheme which has been agreed to by the Pigs and Bacon Marketing Boards, and which is being facilitated by an advance under the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1931, provides that if an over-estimate has been made of bacon prices under market conditions during the first contract period, producers' returns will in effect be averaged out as between this and the next two subsequent contract periods. The Debate on the Bacon (Imports Regulation) Order, 1933, on Wednesday next, will afford an opportunity for a fuller statement on this subject.
    Mr. THORNE: Can the right hon. Gentleman state the reason why there is a difference between the price paid for black pigs and other pigs?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture the estimated quantity of bacon to be imported into Great Britain during the quarter ending 31st December, 1933, showing the quantity from each separate country and comparable figures for the quarter ended 31st December, 1932?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I am arranging for a statement to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:

    STATEMENT of estimated quantity of Bacon and Hams to be imported into Great Britain and Northern Ireland during the quarter ending 31st December, 1933, and imports for the quarter ended 31st
    December, 1932.

    Country

    Quarter ended 31st December, 1932.

    Quarter ending 31st December, 1933. (Estimated of basis of provisional allocations.)

    Cwt.

    Cwt.

    Denmark

    1,835,219

    1,125,000

    Holland

    385,739

    170,000

    Poland

    266,042

    165,000

    Lithuania

    156,330

    83,000

    Sweden

    85,046

    78,500*

    Estonia

    28,191

    15,000

    Finland

    12,864

    9,000

    Latvia

    13,063

    8,000

    U.S.S.R. —

    5,107

    8,500

    Argentina

    27,082

    12,500

    U.S.A.

    123,869

    109,000

    Canada

    56,920

    206,000

    Irish Free State.

    70,775

    82,000

    Other Countries

    2,114

    12,500

    Total

    3,068,361

    2,084,000

    * The percentage allocation to Sweden is still under discussion. Pending further consideration, and without prejudice, Sweden is by arrangement shipping at the rate of 4·8 per cent. of foreign allocations. On this basis imports from Sweden in the current quarter would be about 85,000 cwt.

    MEAT COMMISSION (REPORT).
    Marquess of TITCHFIELDasked the Minister of Agriculture when the Meat Commission is likely to report?
    Mr. ELLIOT: In view of the magnitude of their task, and of the experience which we are all desirous they should gain from observation of the marketing schemes now coming into operation, I do not anticipate that the report of the Commission will be available until early in the New Year. I should, however, like to acknowledge the valuable advice which I have already received from them from time to time on points on which they have been consulted.

    MILK.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is satisfied that the increase in the retail price of milk which his board has

    557
    achieved has not been accompanied by a reduction in the demand and an increase of waste milk?
    Mr. ELLIOT: Retail prices are settled by agreement among the retailers in each area. I understand that in certain areas an increase has taken place, but I have every reason to suppose that the Milk Board is keeping closely in view the necessity of promoting the consumption of milk, and that the board will therefore give close consideration to questions such as those raised by the right hon. Member.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Has the right hon. Gentleman any figures to give us as to the amount of the additional price that is being paid for milk by the consumer each week, so that we can form some sort of idea as to what the cost is likely to amount to?
    Mr. ELLIOT: That is very far from the question on the Paper.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Pardon me. The question on the Paper is:
    "Whether he is satisfied that the increase in the retail price of milk …?"
    Surely, the right hon. Gentleman must know how far the increase of the retail price has so far taken effect?
    Mr. ELLIOT: As the right hon. and gallant Gentleman may be aware, the Milk Board, which has only been a very short time in operation, is now analysing all those figures, and I have no doubt whatever that the Milk Board, formed to promote the consumption of milk, is taking into close review that possibility and with it an increase in price.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman state the number of districts where prices in excess of normal winter prices is being charged by the retailer?
    Mr. ELLIOT: Not without notice.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in my own constituency the price has been put up to 6 ½d. a quart?
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Minister of Agriculture what progress has been made in the negotiations for the restriction of milk imports from the Dominions?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I assume that my right hon. Friend refers to imports of milk
    558
    products. As regards supplies of processed milks, I hope that the standstill arrangement reached for the months of June to August last will continue to the end of the year. As regards other milk products the situation is unchanged.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Does the right hon. Gentleman expect to reduce Dominion milk product imports during the rest of the year?
    Mr. ELLIOT: The amount of imported processed milk products has been reduced. I cannot give the figure without notice, but it is a standstill agreement with the Dominions, and there is a reduction of 20 per cent. in the imports from other countries; that is for processed milk. As regards butter and cheese, the position is that we have not been able to secure a reduction in the Dominion consignments.
    Mr. BATEYasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that at a meeting in Durham on 28th October, 1933, the prices of milk were fixed in some parts of the area at 6d. per quart and in other parts at 7d. per quart, and one housewife will pay 6d. whilst another only a few yards away will pay 7d.; and can he state what remedy those have who pay 7d.?
    Mr. ELLIOT: As I informed the hon. Member on Thursday last, I have no special knowledge of the prices fixed by milk retailers in the various districts. I hope that any complaints with regard to such prices will be capable of settlement locally but if not they will be investigated by the bodies under the Acts of 1931 and 1933 which are now in process of formation.
    Mr. BATEY: Is it not time that the Minister of Agriculture obtained this information? Is he aware that in the case of two housewives supplied by the same milk retailer even from the same milk can one pays 6d. and the other 7d.? Surely it is time the right hon. Gentleman was getting to know.
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Minister of Agriculture if he proposes to arm the Milk Marketing Board with powers to cheek the excessive retail prices of milk?
    Mr. ELLIOT: As I informed the right hon. Gentleman on 9th November, machinery is provided under the Agricultural Marketing Acts for the settle-

    559
    ment or any complaints about the effect of marketing schemes upon consumers of the regulated products. Should the Committee of Investigation report to me that retail milk prices, either generally or in particular districts, are excessive as a result of the operation of the milk marketing scheme, or as a result of any action or omission of the Milk Marketing Board, it would then be open to me to consider, after consulting the Board of Trade, what action I should take to rectify the matter?
    Mr. LAMBERT: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that some retailers in putting up the price of milk are endangering the scheme by antagonising the consumers, arid that unless he takes action quickly there may be a considerable reaction against the Milk Marketing Board?
    Mr. ELLIOT: Surely, pending the report of the Committee of Investigation which has to judge the issues as to whether or not prices are excessive, I ought not to come in now into a discussion about milk prices.
    Sir FRANK SANDERSON: Is this not a clear indication that any attempt to socialise an industry increases the price to the consumer?
    Lieut.-Commander AGNEW: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the intention of the Investigation Committee to hold local public inquiries where desired?
    Mr. ELLIOT: The Committee of Investigation will be the judges of their own procedure and will obviously draw it up after a consideration of the problems to which they will have to address themselves.

    BRITISH BARLEY (BREWERS' PURCHASES).
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGEasked the Minister of Agriculture if he has any figures to show how the purchase of British barley by brewers compares with last year?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I understand that the Brewers' Society are in course of collecting particulars of the purchases of British barley by brewers this year and last year, and that from the information so far available it is estimated that purchases of British barley by the brewers
    560
    concerned have increased by 530,000 cwt. as compared with the same period last year.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these increases are increases owing to consumption, or increases owing to the additional percentage of British barley brewed?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I am afraid that I cannot. say without notice, but shall be happy to inquire if my hon. and gallant Friend desires.
    Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: Is it not a fact that on all markets there is very clear evidence that since the new crop has been available a larger proportion has been used and the price has been a far more economic one for the farmers concerned?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I believe a much larger quantity has been used, and the price has shown a considerable improvement.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Are not very large quantities of barley coming from Russia?
    Sir H. CROFT: Is it not a fact that the shipments from Russia go into chicken food?

    WAGES REGULATION ACT.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture how many county wages committees operating under the Agricultural Wages Regulation Act., 1924, have reduced agricultural workers' wages or extended hours or both during the present year; in how many cases the Minister has objected to the reduction; and how many reductions have been approved without alteration?
    Mr. ELLIOT: During the present year effect has been given by Orders of the Agricultural Wages Board to decisions of 10 Agricultural Wages Committees reducing the minimum weekly rates of wages for ordinary adult male workers and of two other committees increasing the hours in respect of which the minimum wage is payable. The determination of minimum rates of wages for agricultural workers is a matter solely within the powers of the Agricultural Wages Committees, and their decisions are not subject to revision by any other authority. Section 6 of the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act merely enables me at my discretion to direct a committee to reconsider any minimum rate which has

    561
    been fixed by them. In none of the cases in question did I feel that the circumstances called for the exercise of this discretionary power on my part.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Are we to understand that notwithstanding the numerous financial gifts which have been made to agriculture by the present Government the right hon. Gentleman thinks it necessary for farmers to reduce farm workers' wages still further?
    Mr. ELLIOT: It would be a, bad thing if I were incautiously entrapped into making a, statement of that kind in this House.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: In view of the fact that 12 wages committees in 12 separate counties have recommended reductions in wages, does the right hon. Gentleman think all those reductions are justified, and that there is still need for further reductions in wages?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I must demur to the statement that I think every reduction is justified, and also, in the second place, to the statement that I think there is need for a further reduction in wages. I shall continue my efforts to raise prices to a remunerative level, and I hope that in that endeavour I shall have the hon. Gentleman's support.

  TITHE RENTCHARGE.
  Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Government will set up a commission to examine the position of those who have to pay tithe under the 1925 Act?
  Mr. ELLIOT: I have recently discussed the position with deputations representative of tithe-payers and tithe-owners, and the views put forward by the interests concerned are receiving my full consideration. I am not at present in a position, however, to make a further statement on the subject.
  Sir J. WARDLAW-MILNE: Would my right hon. Friend consider whether, in view of the widespread dissatisfaction, it is not desirable to have an inquiry to settle finally whether the tithe-payer has a grievance or not?
  Mr. ELLIOT: It is, in the first place, a question for tithe-payers and tithe-owners to settle between themselves.

  SEA-FISH COMMISSION.
  Sir M. WOODasked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Sea-Fish Commission, provided for by the Sea-Fishing Act, has yet been set up; and, if so, whether he can announce the names of the members?
  Mr. ELLIOT: I am glad to be able to announce that the Ministers responsible for the appointment of this Commission have been fortunate in securing the services of Sir Andrew Duncan as Chairman. I hope to be in a position at an early date to announce the names of the full Commission.

  CROWN LEASES, REGENT STREET (RENTS).
  Captain HERBERTasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the aggregate amount of the annual ground rents in Regent Street; and what was the amount of arrears on 1st October, 1933?
  Mr. ELLIOT: The aggregate amount of the annual ground rents in Regent Street is £522,830. The amount of arrears on 1st October, 1933, was £101,167, of which £17,813 has been paid since that date.
  Captain HERBERT: Is it not a fact that a considerable proportion of tenants have paid only a small amount, or a proportionate amount, of their rent during the past two years, and no action has been taken against them; and is it not a further fact that the Crown Commissioners dare not take action against them for fear of turning out well-established tenants whom they could not possibly replace at the present rents?
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Is not this a case against the nationalisation of land?
  Captain HERBERTasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the rack rents obtainable for Crown property in Regent Street are, in a large number of instances, barely sufficient to cover the ground rent; and if this cover is considered a sufficient security for the capital value of this class of property?
  Mr. ELLIOT: Rack rental values of business premises vary with the fluctuations of trade, and I am aware that in Regent Street as elsewhere the rack

  563
  rents obtainable for certain premises at the present time are much lower than were contemplated at the time when the leases were granted. If this were regarded as a permanent condition the security for the ground rents would be inadequate, but I have no reason to believe that, taken over a term of years, the ground rents in Regent Street will not be found to be fully secured.
  Captain HERBERT: Is it not a generally accepted principle of good estate management that the rack rent should afford two and a-half times cover of the ground rent?
  Mr. ELLIOT: You have to take the rough with the smooth in these matters and average over a period of years.
  Captain HERBERT: But in this case do not the Crown Commissioners take all the smooth and the ground renters get all the rough?
  Mr. TH0RNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Government that there is an easy way of raising millions of money by taxing ground values?
  HON. MEMBERS: This land belongs to the Crown.

  DEFENCE SERVICES (MEDICAL BRANCHES).
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir VIVIAN HENDERSONasked the Prime Minister what action he proposes to take on the Report of the Committee on the Medical Branches of the Defence Services?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay Mac Donald): Certain aspects of the report have been felt to require further consideration; but my hon. and gallant Friend may rest assured that there will be no avoidable delay in reaching a conclusion.

  HERRING FISHERY INDUSTRY.
  Mr. HENDERSON STEWARTasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware of the situation which has arisen in Yarmouth following upon the curers' announcement of their inability to accept further supplies of herring; if he is aware that, as a result of this decision, most of the boats will have to return home at
  564
  once before expenses have been covered; and if he proposes to take any immediate steps to mitigate the hardship likely to be suffered by members of the fishing fleets?
  Mr. ELLIOT: I am aware of the situation which has arisen in the herring fishing industry due to the falling off in the demand for British cured herrings abroad. As my hon. Friend is aware, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are discussing the position this evening with representatives of the industry now in London. It is difficult to see what immediate steps the Government can usefully take to relieve the present situation. As my hon. Friend is aware, some success has already attended the Government's efforts in recent commercial negotiations to expand foreign markets, and this aspect of the matter is being fully borne in mind in other negotiations now proceeding.
  Sir M. WOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present position is exactly similar to that of two years ago, and again last year; and do not the Government acknowledge some responsibility for the present position?
  Mr. ELLIOT: I am discussing the matter with the representatives of the industry this afternoon. Surely, all parties bear a certain responsibility if in a glut situation they continue to overproduce.
  Sir M. WOOD: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no glut, that a much less quantity of herrings has been caught this year than formerly; and that the curing of herrings at Yarmouth this year is less than half that which it was as late as 1930?
  Mr. ELLIOT: These seem to be exactly the propositions that I shall have to discuss when the Secretary of State for Scotland and I meet the representatives of the industry this afternoon.
  Sir A. M. SAMUEL: In view of the constant recurring difficulty in the herring export trade, ought we not to take steps to improve the general internal distribution of fish in the towns and villages of England and thus get rid of surplus and gluts?

  WIRELESS LICENCES.
  Mr. GLOSSOPasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the difficulty which many persons are having in finding a lump sum of 10s. for the renewal of their wireless licences; and whether he will consider the introduction and sale of wireless licence stamps of a value of 6d. each so as to enable 20 such stamps to be bought in advance of the date of renewal and which would be accepted in payment of a licence?
  The POSTMASTER- GENERAL (Sir Kingsley Wood): Facilities suitable for this purpose are provided by the Post Office Savings Bank. A stamp savings book can be obtained at a post office, and 6d. savings stamps can be purchased and affixed in the book. When 20 of these stamps have been accumulated they can be cashed at a post office and the sum of 10s. can be used for the purchase of a wireless licence.
  Mr. GLOSSOP: Can the Postmaster-General arrange to broadcast that valuable information for the benefit of listeners?
  Sir K. WOOD: Already a certain amount of publicity has been given to this matter, and I have no doubt that the question of my hon. Friend will at any rate creep into the newspapers which circulate in his constituency?

  UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE BOARD (STAFF).
  Mr. HICKSasked the Minister of Labour whether it is intended that the staff of the Unemployment Assistance Board, which is proposed under the new Unemployment Insurance Bill, shall be full-time or part-time civil servants; and, if not, what will be the status of these employés?
  The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton): It is proposed by the Unemployment Bill that the salaries and allowances of officers and servants of the Unemployment Assistance Board shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament, and it is contemplated that their terms and conditions of service, including superannuation allowances for the permanent staff, shall in general be the same as those of the Civil Service. I am
  566
  unable to say at present how far staff, other than full-time staff, may be employed by the board.
  Mr. THORNE: Has the right hon. Gentleman made up his mind as to the salary to be paid to the five statutory commissioners?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: That is an entirely different question, and I am not in a position to make a statement upon it.

  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (UPHOLSTERY).
  Sir V. HENDERSONasked the First Commissioner of Works whether any chairs or sofas in the Palace of Westminster have been upholstered during the recent Adjournment; and, if so, whether skins or hides of Empire origin were used?
  The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; and to the latter part in the negative. I have now given definite instructions that none but skins of Empire origin will in future be used for upholstery in the Houses of Parliament.

  INCOME TAX (CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES).
  Sir B. PETOasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the instructions issued to co-operative societies by the National Co-operative Authority to increase the rates of depreciation and wear and tear, and reduce the allocation to reserve, now liable to Income Tax, in order to escape taxation; and whether co-operative societies will be permitted to reduce the capital value of their assets by larger percentages than are permitted to private traders under Income Tax law?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hore-Belisha): I am aware that the National Co-operative Authority has recommended certain lines of policy to co-operative societies in relation to their Income Tax liability, though I do not understand them to include a recommendation that rates of depreciation and wear and tear should be increased in order to escape taxation. In any event, my hon. Friend may rest assured that in the matter of deprecia-

  567
  tion and wear and tear, as in other respects, the provisions of the Income Tax law will be applied to co-operative societies in precisely the same way as to private traders, and there is no question whatever of any greater rates of allowance being obtained by the societies than those granted to other concerns.

  POLICE (PROPOSED WOMEN'S RESERVE CORPS).
  Major NATHANasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what communications have passed between his Department and/or the Chief Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and the women's reserve corps now in course of creation under the command of Commandant Allen; whether any grant of public moneys to the organisation has been made or is contemplated; and what information he has as to the constitution, objects, numbers, and activities of the organisation?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): No communications have passed between the Home Office or the Commissioner of Police about a proposed women's reserve corps, and I have no information about it. No grant of public money to such a corps has been made or is contemplated.

  TRANSPORT.

    ROAD ACCIDENTS.
    Mr. CADOGANasked the Minister of Transport if he can give the figures relating to road accidents in England, Scotland, and Wales for the last six months to the nearest convenient date, stating how many persons have been injured and killed as a result of such accidents during that period?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I am about to issue a preliminary analysis of fatal accidents occurring on the roads during the first six months of the year and would ask my, hon. and gallant Friend to await the return which I hope will be available in a few days' time. As regards other accidents, I understand that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has asked for a special return from all police forces
    568
    in England and Wales of the number of accidents for the first nine months of this year. These figures which will be available in a day or two will include non-fatal as well as fatal accidents.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Can the Minister of Transport say whether there will be a comparison with previous years showing the number of fatalities this year as compared with previous years?
    Mr. STANLEY: Not in the statement that I am going to issue. That is an analysis of the causes, and there will be no comparison with the figures of previous years. The other return by the Home Secretary will be published by the Home Office.

    MOTOR COACH SERVICES, ESSEX.
    Sir V. HENDERSONasked the Minister of Transport whether there was any application from either local authorities or the public for an express service of coaches between Chelmsford, Brentwood, and London as well as the former intermediate service; whether he is aware that the express service to which Hillman's coaches have now been confined is not greatly used, and that this additional service adds to the congestion on the roads; and whether the decision in regard to the new arrangement of the coach service between Chelmsford, Brentwood, and London is for an indefinite period or can be reviewed on expiry of licences in 12 months' time or later?
    Mr. STANLEY: So far as I am aware there has been no application by local authorities or the public for a service of express coaches between Chelmsford, Brentwood and London. As to the imposition of a minimum fare of 6d. on that service so that it. might fulfil the role of a limited stop service in the eastern area, I would refer my hon. and gallant friend to the first part of the answer which I gave to questions by him on 29th March last, of which I am sending him a copy.
    In the Metropolitan Area the Commissioner decided to impose a minimum fare of 1s. which, on appeal, I reduced to 6d. When these decisions were made known, representations were made by local authorities and members of the public that there would be a lack of facilities for short stage passengers on this route, par-

    569
    itularly between Chelmsford and Brentwood. The Commissioners thereupon made arrangements for the short stage services to be strengthened before the minimum fare became operative on the Hillman service. Road service licences have a maximum validity of 12 months, and the question whether a licence should again be granted and, if so, under what conditions, comes up for reconsideration by the Commissioners on each application for a new licence.
    Sir V. HENDERSON: If the express service continues not to be patronised, does the Minister propose to continue it as well as the local service?
    Mr. STANLEY: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is aware that it is not primarily a matter for me. No doubt application will be made to the Traffic Commissioners, and if any party is dissatisfied with their decision it will come to me on appeal.

  BRAZIL (BRITISH INVESTORS).
  Sir BERTRAM FALLEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is now in a position to inform the House whether the Brazilian authorities have completed their investigation and have readjusted the tramway and ferry fares of the Leopoldina Terminal and the Cantareira Companies so as to end the loss caused to British investors in those companies?
  Mr. EDEN: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which was given on the 9th November to my hon. friends the Members for Newcastle-upon-Tyne North (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle) and Aberdeen North (Mr. Burnett). There is at present nothing which I can add to that reply.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE.
  Mr. DORANasked the Postmaster-General when he proposes to introduce the new party telephone-line system for general use in London; what the cost of rental will be to the private subscriber; and what degree of privacy will be assured?
  Sir K. WOOD: I am not yet in a position to make any statement on the matter referred to by my hon. Friend.

  SWANSEA DOCKS (COAL SHIPMENTS).
  Mr. D. GRENFELL(for Sir WILLIAM JENKINS) asked the Minister of Transport whether he has been informed of the breakage of coal in course of shipment at the Prince of Wales Dock, Swansea; and whether he will communicate with the dock authorities with a view of getting improved tipping arrangements at this dock?
  Major GEORGE DAVIES (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. My hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines has received representations on this subject which are at present under consideration by his Department and mine.

  DISARMAMENT.
  Mr. LANSBURY(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether the Government propose to publish any further White Paper dealing with the events which preceded the meeting of the Bureau of the Disarmament. Conference on 14th October?
  The PRIME MINISTER: So far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, we should be perfectly ready to publish records of previous communications, if this was demanded, but we feel that in the wider interests of the constructive work, of future discussion of agreement, it would be better not to take this course, if it can be avoided. For this reason, the Government venture to hope that the request will not he pressed.
  Mr. LANSBURY: On that let me say that we on this side would have preferred to have pressed the Government to publish the papers, but in view of the request of the right hon. Gentleman we do not intend to do so.

BILLS REPORTED.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WARWICK) BILL [Lords].
  Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WELLINGTON, SALOP) BILL [Lords].
  Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered Tomorrow.

DISARMAMENT.
3.36 p.m.
Mr. MORGAN JONES: I beg to move,
"That this House regrets that the strong desire of the country for international agreement on disarmament has not been reflected in the policy pursued by His Majesty's Government at the Disarmament Conference and, realising the growing opinion in favour of the total disarmament of all nations throughout the world, this House calls upon the Government to submit to the Conference proposals for—

(a) the complete abandonment of all air bombing;

(b) the general abolition of all weapons at present forbidden to Germany by the Treaty of Versailles, namely, tanks, heavy artillery, capital ships, aircraft carriers, submarines, and all naval and military aircraft;

(c) the international control of civil aviation;

(d) an immediate reduction by all nations in their expenditure upon armaments;

(e) the suppression of all private manufacture and trade in armaments;

(f) international inspection and control of armaments in all countries;

(q) the creation of an international police force; and

(h) the definition of aggression on the basis of the proposals made by the Conference Committee"

This Motion stands in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and of several of my colleagues as well as myself. Perhaps it would be convenient if I recalled to the mind of the House something that happened in the Debate last week. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition made to the Government an offer the purport of which was broadly this: He intimated that we desired to continue the discussion initiated last Tuesday and that we would prefer that that discussion should be continued in a more or less non-party atmosphere, in the hope that we might be able to put before the House proposals in regard to disarmament, and that having put them before the House we might test the opinion of the House upon the proposals regardless of party affiliations. We would have preferred not to have embodied this Resolution in the form of a Vote of Censure, if that method were possible; but the Government found it impossible to accept and adopt that suggestion, and we therefore are obliged—we make no apology for it—to put on the Order Paper the Motion which I now submit.
580
Before I come to the details of the Motion, I would like to make a reference to the concluding portion of the speech of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the Debate last, Tuesday. The hon. Gentleman gave expression to a criticism which is very commonly applied by Members of the Government party to the Opposition nowadays in relation to this matter. They accuse us of using the disarmament difficulty for party purposes. The Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs gave point to that criticism and made an appeal to us, as I understood him, to cease from that kind of activity. I challenge the right of the Government to demand that we shall hold our tongues when we differ from them in policy. This is His Majesty's Opposition, and, if we come to the conclusion that the Government are following the wrong policy either in domestic matters or in foreign affairs, we claim the right—I repeat, the right—to express our point of view, without the good will of the Government's friends in any part of the House.
Suppose, however, that there was something in that criticism, I could find ample precedent for such a course. The Tory party have not always been silent when Governments from which they were dissociated politically followed certain lines of policy in foreign affairs. Let me recall one incident. When the first Labour Government—which I think the Prime Minister still recollects occasionally—was in office, it was engaged during September, 1924, in discussions at Geneva. The result of those discussions was the emergence of the instrument known as the Geneva Protocol. Shortly afterwards that Labour Government went out of office. Did the succeeding Tory, Government accept that instrument and follow the line of policy laid down by their predecessors? Far from it. One of the first things they did in foreign affairs was to abandon the Geneva Protocol and to follow their own line. do not blame them. They were entitled to do so, but, if they are entitled to follow their own line in foreign affairs, are not we equally entitled to follow ours? I can say this to the Government frankly, and I am sure I 'shall carry all my colleagues with me in saying it, that so far as we find the Government pursuing peace we shall with great heartiness afford them our support,

581
but in so far as we consider their policy to be inimical to the interests of peace we claim the right to challenge that policy in the place where it ought to be challenged, namely, in the House of Commons.
I turn now to the terms of the Motion which I am submitting to the House. It contains three propositions to which I shall invite the attention of hon. Members as I proceed. First, it posits the proposition that the country entertains a strong desire for international agreement regarding Disarmament. Is there any Member in any quarter of the House who will dispute that proposition? In the Debate of last week all the speakers, the official spokesmen of the Government as well as others, were agreed that there is a deep-seated desire among the citizens of the land that a policy of Disarmament should be faithfully prosecuted and brought to a successful issue. In regard to the first proposition, I submit there can be little controversy. If proof were required of the state of public opinion on this question, I need only recall two recent electoral events. One is the result of the East Fulham by-election. Whatever the merits or demerits of the opposing policies generally, it is quite certain that the question of peace entered very largely into the decision of that election in one of the suburbs of London. Then there was the Skipton by-election, and I noticed that the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was sent down post-haste by the Government in order, if possible, to stem the tide of opinion which was flowing against them and to declare in categorical terms that the mind of the Government was fixed on the prosecution of peace. Those events give ample proof of the strength, the truth, the accuracy of the first proposition which I am submitting to the House.
We pass from that which is agreed ground to the second proposition, namely, that the national will for Disarmament has not been reflected in the Government's policy at Disarmament Conferences. Here, no doubt, there will be some controversy. I have already indicated I think that, whether our propositions be conceded or not, our right to challenge the Government on these points cannot be disputed, and I proceed to develop as best I can a case in support of the second proposition in this Motion. There is, first, a point which has a very
582
practical bearing upon the whole Disarmament situation. I must recall to the Foreign Secretary, to the Prime Minister, and to their colleagues in the Government that what happened in the Far East last year could not but have had a profound influence upon the attitude of the world towards the problem of Disarmament. I shall not enter into the minutiae of the developments which took place there. The effect was that Japan ultimately left the League of Nations and she had, I verily believe, been encouraged—I will not say deliberately but encouraged almost inferentially, certainly by this Government in the policy which she prosecuted in the Far East. Not only was she encouraged by the Government in the way I have indicated, but speeches were made by leading Members of the Tory party in this House last year deliberately encouraging Japan in the course upon which she had embarked.
Viscountess ASTOR: Who were they?
HON. MEMBERS: Give the names.
Mr. JONES: I cannot stop at this moment to do so. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I can recall three. There was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery). Another was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), and a third was, I think, one of the hon. Members for Liverpool——
Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: To my astonishment the hon Gentleman has named me in that connection. Will he read any passage from my speeches which justifies his allegation
Mr. JONES: I will reply to that in this way. Certainly I ought to have fortified myself with actual quotations. I will not deny that, but the right hon. Gentleman will recall that he devoted a very considerable proportion of that speech to justifying Japan in large measure, on the ground of the difficulties created for Japan by the disturbances in China.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: If to be enabled to see two sides of a question is to be a partisan on one side, then there is perhaps some foundation for the hon. Gentleman's charge. I endeavoured to show, before condemning the action of Japan, that at least I understood what

583
had led to it, and my condemnation was outspoken. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] If, after that, the hon. Gentleman persists, I say flatly that there is not the slightest foundation for his argument.
HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw!
Mr. JONES: Am I to be allowed to proceed, Mr. Speaker I am not going to withdraw a single word. I repeat that the inference of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in the main was in the direction which I have indicated. If that was not the intention of the right hon. Gentleman, I cannot help it.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: That is not so.
Mr. JONES: Very well, we disagree.
Mr. HANNON: On a point of Order. The hon. Member makes a statement, and my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) repudiates the accuracy of that statement. Is it in order to make a statement, in any part of the House, which is immediately repudiated by another hon. Member, and to make no apology?
Mr. SPEAKER: There is no point of Order.
Mr. JONES: I hope my time will not be taken up with interruptions. I turn from that to a further point. The effect of the policy pursued by the Government and supported by individual Members of its own supporters in this House was to encourage Japan, which led ultimately to the conquest of large sections of territory and the development of the belief—and this is the important point in this discussion to—day—that strong and important Powers could do what they would, without expecting any violent action on the part of the League of Nations against them. The consequence was that once you had sown the belief that the League of Nations was impotent in regard to strong and powerful nations, you developed a lack of faith in the efficacy of the League itself. I pass from that except to repeat that the Government cannot be absolved from their share of responsibility for what has happened in regard to the development of a lack of faith in the League.
584
Let me turn from that to a particular discussion of the 1932 Disarmament Conference. It is not without significance that not one spokesman for the Government last week attempted to say a single word in justification of the record of the Government in relation to disarmament during 1932. History for them last week began in March, 1933, when the draft disarmament plan appeared. The Government had been in office nearly two years before that—a year and a half certainly—and they know very well that the record which stands opposite their name in relation to disarmament last year, 1932, is a record of which they have no right whatsoever to be proud. Let me recall to the House one or two facts. Shortly after the Conference itself began, if I remember rightly, in February last year, there was presented to that Conference a series of plans or schemes. One of the biggest of them was the Italian plan. What happened to that? Of course, the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary at once began, in a characteristic way, to hand over bouquets by way of compliments on every hand—"A lovely plan," "The Government was interested; it would give it its attention; it would study it very particularly." But what have we done? Nothing at all.
The Hoover plan came along a few months later, and again a veritable plethora of compliments. The right hon. Gentleman is deadliest always when he is most friendly. Compliments galore, fine buttered phrases, but what has been done? Nothing at all. The Russian plan came along. It may have been, from the point of view of hon. Members in this House, far too advanced, far too thorough-going, but it was a plan. What happened to that plan? What was the reaction of the Government to that plan?
The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir John Simon): What was the Russian plan?
Mr. JONES: The Russian plan was for total disarmament.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: Immediate disarmament?
Mr. JONES: The hon. and gallant Member had better look up the facts himself. The next was the German plan. Here again was a scheme put forward. What again was the action of the Gov-

585
ernment? Any number of compliments, an endless number of fine and courteous words, but, so far as plan was concerned, definite reaction, definite contribution, I think the Government cannot but admit that the sum total of their contribution during 1932 amounted to very little indeed. We made a contribution. The right hon. Gentleman propounded conundrums. Admiral Pound got in one of those commissions, and Admiral Pound, speaking of battleships, said they were as precious as rubies, but they could not be regarded as offensive weapons. The proposition was made that tanks over 20 tons should be abolished. How many did it mean that you would give up? We were told at the time that that proposal involved giving up one tank. That was prodigal generosity. That was allowing the spirit of peace to run away with you. What was the sacrifice you made? What were you prepared to give up? [An HoN. MEMBER: "The British Empire!"] The right hon. Gentleman cannot deny that at the end of that Conference one who cannot be accused of being Labour in sentiment or kindly disposed to our Labour movement—I refer to Signor Grandi—used these words in relation to that situation:
"The Fascist Government now deem it necessary to say that it is not enough for the Powers here assembled to make a declaration of good will couched in general terms in order to make an impression on the peoples of the world who are seeking and waiting for definite and positive results. The Italian delegation, after having sincerely and unsparingly collaborated to secure the triumph of those prnciples which in the general framework of armaments would have enabled the Conference to secure positive results, is compelled to state that the effort made has been a vain one and entirely inadequate when compared with the wishes and hopes of the world."
If I ventured to quote to the House, not that statement merely, but the translation of an article written by Signor Grandi in the "Populo d'Italia" on 31st July, I think it would shock the House as indicating the view of the share taken by our own country in the discussions that had hitherto been proceeding in Geneva. In fact, it is not unfair to say that, at any rate, during 1932, the contribution of this Government by way of indicating what this country was prepared to give up, what sacrifices we were prepared to make, was a contribution hardly adequate to the necessity of the times.
586
The right hon. Gentleman last week spoke of fouling nests. I wonder how many nests were fouled in Geneva last year. Anyhow, our point is that if the responsibility lies anywhere upon any one nation in regard to the failure of Disarmament discussions last year, and certainly in regard to the proposals of other nations, that responsibility lies heavily at the door of the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary.
I do not dwell upon the actual nature of our proposals during 1932 beyond saying that there were proposals, it is true. There was the proposal that all submarines, for instance, should be abolished. I am all in favour of abolishing submarines, but then hon. Gentlemen must not forget that it happens to be convenient for us that submarines should be abolished, and, therefore, we proposed it. But it is not convenient for us to abolish battleships, and, therefore, it was not proposed. What was proposed was that battleships of the sort then in existence should be retained until 1936, and that smaller battleships, and more of them, should be built thereafter.
The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Sir Bolton Eyres Monsell): Will the hon. Gentleman quote exactly'?
Mr. JONES: Hon. Members must really give me fair play. If I am saying what is not a statement of fact, hon. Members will have opportunities of their own to reply.
The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): I am perfectly certain the hon. Gentleman does not make a serious statement without having at his finger end the facts. He has just made a statement that the desire was to have smaller first-class battleships, and more of them. Has he got any justification for the latter part of his statement?
Mr. JONES: For the moment, I think I am nonplussed. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, and will give me a chance, I will return to it later. Let me pass on from that to the next point. I want to be perfectly fair to the House, but I must be allowed to go on. The next point was in regard to air armaments. We invited other nations to come down to our level, and after that there was to be general reduction all round. The effect of this was to create a general

587
sense of depression at Geneva, and especially was this depression present to the minds of the German delegates. Everyone will recall that at the end of 1932 a very serious internal situation was developing in Germany. That situation finally culminated in the triumph of Herr Hitler, who subsequently became Chancellor of Germany. Early in 1933 Germany was out of the Disarmament Conference, and the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister speedily journeyed to Geneva and propounded what he called the Draft Disarmament Plan.
Sir J. SIMON: Germany was never out of the Conference in 1933.
Mr. JONES: Does the right hon. Gentleman tell me that the Germans were never out of the Conference at all before this occasion?
Sir J. SIMON: Let me get the dates right. The withdrawal of the Germans from Geneva took place, if I recollect, in July, 1932. Negotiations which brought them back were completed in December, 1932, and they returned, therefore, to Geneva to the Disarmament Conference, not in 1933 but in 1932.
Mr. JONES: Then I beg pardon. I made a mistake in reading my notes. To return to the main point. The Germans have been out of the Conference. The right hon. Gentleman went to Geneva and propounded a Draft Disarmament Plan, and from that point, I cordially admit, Britain had before the Disarmament Conference a definite scheme, not perhaps as advanced a scheme as I desired, but, still, there were proposals in the name of Britain which could be very fully discussed. I want to say, on behalf of my hon. Friends and myself, that any criticisms we advance concerning the Government's attitude on this matter of Disarmament, do not in any way whatsoever imply or express any sort of approval of what has been going on internally in Germany. We have the utmost abhorrence of all the incidents that have taken place there, for we regard it as a crime against civilisation that whole bodies of people should be subjected to the treatment to which they have been subjected. In spite of that, we really must keep some sense in regard to this matter vis à vis Disarmament.
588
We used to argue with hon. Gentlement opposite, when they cited what they deemed to be excesses in Russia, that what happened in Russia was a matter primarily for the Russian people. Similarly we argue that what happens inside Germany is a matter for the German people, and that they themselves must address themselves to their problems. But just as we argue that Russia should be in the League of Nations, so we say, equally categorically, that Germany ought to be inside the League of Nations and all its constituent bodies similarly. This plan of the Prime Minister was accepted as a basis of discussion, and in due time representatives of various nations began to express their point of view regarding it. I hope that hon. Gentlemen will forgive me if I emphasise this point. To me the vital thing in this matter is to convince the German people that they can get a square deal from other nations at the League of Nations and all its constituent bodies. What they call a square deal is quite precise. They insist upon what they call equality of treatment. It is not a new proposition. As a matter of fact, I have in my hand the Notes for Speakers issued by the Conservative party on 2nd November, and in this document the Conservative party invites its speakers to point out to their audiences that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham in this House on 24th March, 1925, used these words:
"It is essential that Germany should enter the League of Nations on a footing of equality, both of obligations and of rights, with the other great and small nations."
That was a statement of the right hon. Gentleman, which he will recall, after the Locarno discussions in 1925. He was not alone in that matter.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Of course, it had not the slightest reference to Disarmament, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, if he looks at the speech.
Mr. JONES: Surely the right hon. Gentleman will not deny that you cannot be conceding equality of treatment in one respect and denying it in another. If she is equal with other nations with regard to some propositions, she must be equal with other nations in this matter. But let me assume that the right hon. Gentleman was not speaking of Disarmament when he used those words.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Nor were the Germans when they put forward the claim to which I was replying.
Mr. JONES: The right hon. Gentleman takes upon himself to interrupt over and over again. I concede his point.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member quotes me incorrectly, I think I am within the Rules and Privileges of the House to point that out.
Mr. JONES: Since the right hon. Gentleman presses it so much, I may tell him that this quotation in the Conservative speakers' notes is used as part and parcel of an argument indicating the approach of this Government towards the question of German armaments. It is used in connection with that argument. If it were not so used, there would be purpose in having the quotation there at all. Therefore, if the right hon. Gentleman will be good' enough to look at the notes, he will find that I am not at all abusing my opportunity in referring to him on this particular point. Let me take the point further. Suppose the right hon. Gentleman did not use it in that sense, in what sense did the leaders of the Powers use it on 11th December, 1932? These are the actual words that were used:
"The Governments of the United Kingdom, France and Italy have declared that one of the principles that shall guide the Conference shall be the grant to Germany … of equality of rights in a system which will provide security for all nations, and that this principle shall find itself embodies, in a convention binding on all sections of the Conference."
It seems to me therefore that whatever might have been the particular interpretation individual people might fairly put upon those words, it is clear that German people put that very clear and precise interpretation upon it, namely, that they were to enter these conferences on the basis of strict equality with other nations. That cannot be conceded merely as an afterthought because the point was made by Count Bernstorff at the Preparatory Commission; the same point was made by Herr Bruening and Herr Nadolny in 1932, by Herr Von Schleicher in January, 1933, and by Herr Hitler in May, 1933; and if the published document which was referred to in another place as being presented by Count Bismarck at the Foreign Office is authentic, that same point was presented by him on the 6th
590
October this year. You must concede this thing as a matter of justice, and, if it is conceded, you cannot barter with it, for, after all, you cannot barter with the principle of justice in that way.
In the intervening period between the 6th October and the 14th October, when the right hon. Gentleman spoke at Geneva, there were doubtless conversations between the Foreign Office and the German Foreign Office. A question was addressed to the Prime Minister this. afternoon, and he gave a clear and specific answer. I will not carry that discussion further. I gather that the Government take the view that it is not wise or discreet to publish certain official documents conveying information of some discussions that took place during those days. All I will say is that it is clear that whatever was in the view of the representatives of the Governments who discussed with the German representatives, the nature of the discussions that took place, the Germans still take the view that the situation in regard to equality of treatment has undergone a substantial change. I think that the Germans were exceedingly foolish in leaving the Conference at all, and I shall be very glad—for it is vital to the peace of Europe that it should be so—to see them return at a very early date.
If they are to have equality of treatment in regard to armaments, what follows? It can only be conceded in one of two ways. Either we must disarm or Germany must re-arm. [HON. MEMBERS: "We?"] The rest as well. Either other nations must disarm as Germany has disarmed, or, if there is to be equality of treatment, Germany must re-arm to preserve the principle of equality. I will not traverse the ground covered last week in this matter, but I will ask this question: What is the mind of the Government regarding German rearmament? It is vitally important that we should know. If I correctly interpret the phrase used by the Foreign Secretary, and if I understand the position aright, it seems to me to imply that in the second stage, instead of there being disarmament, there was n definite concession to re-arm. The words to which I refer were:
"A common list of permitted arms which would be the same for all countries as a result of the abolition of various kinds of armaments and a prohibition against their further use."

591
Does that mean that after some appointed date the Germans are to be free to possess armaments hitherto refused to her by the Treaty of Versailles? Is she to have aeroplanes, tanks, mobile guns and any other implements that are allowed to other nations under the phrase "a common list"? Is she to possess whatever instruments of warfare other nations possess? That is an important point. I understand the Government to keep on saying, "We will not have rearmament for Germany." If this means what I think it means—I hope I am wrong—clearly, instead of there being disarmament on the part of the other nations, there is a concession of rearmament for Germany after a certain period. That is a most important point which must be cleared up, because, if it be so, we have to visualise in a few years a new race of armaments in Europe. We are not encouraged to believe that all will disarm. What we are encouraged to believe is that all will be armed up to a certain agreed measure.
That is reversing the clock entirely, and is leading Europe in entirely the wrong direction from the point of view of disarmament. That proposal can only lead to trouble. If there is to be no rearmament for Germany equality of treatment involves disarmament on our part; and disarmament on our part cannot leave greater armaments for us than there are for Germany because that would not be equality. It means that all should be treated in exactly the same way. Because of that, we submit the third part of our Motion, namely, the body of proposals dealing with methods of disarmament which we as a Labour movement advance.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: Is the hon. Gentleman advancing a numerical equality of armaments, or armaments in accordance with the varying responsibilities of nations?
Mr. JONES: The hon. and gallant Gentleman puts me a proposition which clearly is a matter for a disarmament conference to examine in every possible detail. All I need say to him is that we have put down in this Motion point by point the lines upon which we demand disarmament to be carried on among all nations. I admit that there are technical difficulties against immediate disarma-
592
ment here and now. I am not asking that. All I am asking is that this Government shall go to the Disarmament Conference with this programme in mind, and invite other nations to accept it as the basis of discussions and the object of their ultimate endeavours.
I do not think I need trouble the House with each single detail of this programme. Some parts of it have already been the subject of discussions at Geneva on the initiation of other nations, but from our point of view we would insist that there cannot be security for the peoples of the world outside the adoption of these proposals. Hon. Gentlemen will recall a speech made by the Lord President of the Council in the House some 12 months ago in relation to aerial bombardment, in which he said that experts could not be found anywhere who could guarantee to any people immunity from invasion or from bombardment from the air on the occasion of war. If we cannot guarantee to our people immunity of that sort, what is the sense or reason of inviting men and women to put a blind faith in instruments of this sort which we know we cannot guarantee will give security for their hearths and homes?
Our Motion includes reference to the private manufacture of instruments of war. How many hon. Gentlemen who are now Members of the House can recall the speech made by Mr. Philip Snowden, as he then was, from this side of the House in the days before the War? In that speech he showed how private armament firms were influencing opinion here through the Press and otherwise, and especially how armament firms abroad directly owned instruments for the creation of public opinion; and he indicated to the House that, as long as the manufacture of armaments remained in the hands of private individuals, so long would private interest militate against the public interest which disarmament involved. Lastly, there is the question of the internationalisation of defence. I associate this with item (g) of our Motion, namely, the proposal for an international police force. I know that hon. Gentlemen in, many parts of the House, though otherwise sympathetic with our Motion, have some difficulty about this item. I have always been against the application of force of any sort in the decision of international disputes. But if there are nations which feel insecure without some

593
sort of international body to be placed at their disposal, very well, here is a concession that can be made to them, which will give everyone mutual security and offer to none any sort of offence.
We suggest to the House that this Motion is the only logical solution which can be offered once you have granted the principle of equality for all nations in this matter. I understand that the Government keep the door open for Germany to return to the Disarmament Conference. I want to know on what terms. Are they coming back frankly on the basis of equality? If so, this proposal which we are putting forward is, in our judgment, the only proposal which can effectively guarantee equality of treatment in the matter of armaments. In one final word let me say this: This House will cover its name with shame if it does not speedily make it clear to the world, on behalf of the people of this country, that it insists that the Government of Britain shall work in the council of the nations in the interests of real disarmament; for without complete disarmament there can be no security for man, woman or child, nor can there be peace in the hearts of men.
4.33 p.m.
The PRIME MINISTER: I confess that I had some doubts as to what was to be made out of this Motion, and I am sorry to say that I am now in still greater doubt. The last sentence uttered by the hon. Member was a very encouraging one, however. He said the programme he was offering to the House is the only way to peace. There are eight items in his programme. Four have been taken from the Government's plan, and of several of the remaining four he himself confessed that he was not quite sure of them. The process of conversion is getting on. But I must say this before trying to follow the hon. Member: In the name and on behalf of the House I protest most strongly against a statement made by the hon. Member, without any foundation, which, when challenged, was not withdrawn, that this Government—he had forgotten about my right hon. Friend, and it was then "the Government"—by their action at Geneva had encouraged Japan. That is not true. Having been challenged on that the hon. Member said: "Well, leading Members of the Government." Challenged again, he ventured to indicate my right hon.
594
Friend, Challenged by my right hon. Friend, he could give no reason at all why he had indicated him; and when my right hon. Friend, quite properly feeling that even the hint of an accusation like that required to be followed up; pressed for a withdrawal, neither justification nor withdrawal was forthcoming. Unfortunately, those statements are not confined to these four walls, nor are they confined to this country. Before he left this subject he actually argued that the British Government, having proved to Japan that within the League of Nations she had a doughty ally who would forgive all her faults, and that that discovery on the part of Japan induced Japan to leave the League of Nations. Really, if we cannot have facts we must have some common sense. He also laid down the law that the League of Nations ought at that time to have taken violent action against Japan.
Mr. JONES indicated dissent.
The PRIME MINISTER: The hon. Member has been received in a very indulgent way to-day, but he really must not deny what he himself has said, because I took it down as he said it. He said: "Violent action should have been taken against Japan." What sort of violent action; and when he said that, was it part and parcel of an official pronouncement from the Opposition? Can anyone imagine an appeal being made to East Fulham on the cry: "Violent action by the League of Nations"? Some of us never thought very much of the old cry that we should end war by war. The ranks of those whom we regarded as mistaken have been joined, apparently, by the hon. Member this afternoon. Violent action by the League of Nations in order to establish the League of Nations on a secure foundation!
This is a queer Vote of Censure. The hon. Member repeated what the Leader of the Opposition said the other day: "We do not want a Vote of Censure. We want to get a Hastings resolution down on the Order Paper of the House of Commons and have a Debate upon it." The hon. Member knows perfectly well that that is not the way to do Parliamentary business—for a party—it does not matter what party—to go to a party conference and then return here and ask the Leader of the House, the personal

595
custodian of our time, to give him a day to discuss the resolutions passed at that party conference. If I had agreed to that I would have been no longer worthy to remain as the custodian of the business of the House of Commons. It is like somebody who does not know the rules of the House very well, but rises impulsively and asks Mr. Speaker to hear him on some plea or other which is just as improper as were his previous attempts to get Mr. Speaker to call upon him. There is one way and one way only of bringing such business before this House, and nobody knows it better, or ought to know it better, than the right hon. Gentleman, and that is by a Vote of Censure on the Government. That has now been done. As I say, they have put down a Motion of Censure, half the contents of which is borrowed from the Government's own documents and with the most important item in the remaining four partly rejected by the chosen spokesman of the Opposition when moving this vote of no confidence.
Although I do not want to be very long, I should like to do the Motion of Censure more honour than the hon. Member who moved it. Regarding air policy, in Article 34 of our Draft Convention there is a declaration in favour of the complete prohibition of bombing from the air, and then an exception is made in the matter of police purposes in certain outlying territories. The hon. Member, who was so shocked at that reservation, so conscience stricken about it, wants to console people who may be rather frightened about complete disarmament by establishing an international police force, to which this sort of thing, among others, would be committed. The hon. Member shakes his head. Imagine some rather wild and difficult region, both as regards the territory itself and the individuals, where trouble is brewing. The hon. Member has got his international police force, but he will not allow a raid. What is he going to do to stop it? We cannot have these snippets of detached points of opinion. There is to be no bombing from the air by the police force. This is not to be an international police force that is going to bomb, to march and to sail; this police force is going to do nothing of the kind. It is not going to Use the air or the sea, and it is not going to use the land. It must be a fourth
596
dimensional force, in order that the squeamish conscience of the hon. Member may be accommodated in his disarmament ideal.
In regard to the police bombing part—I can assure the House, although I have not been at Geneva very much, that there has not been an hour wasted by the Disarmament Conference in discussing this reservation, which has never at any time been raised as a serious obstacle to an agreement. This reservation, made in view of experiences and circumstances which everybody in our position knows about, has never been regarded as something that was going to stand finally between an agreement that could be come to but for that one point. It is one of those points about which you may very well say that it has been gone into. When the hon. Member tries to censure us for it, he is trying to censure us for exactly the opinions and the outlook that we share with him.
Why the censure? There is censure one minute, and no censure the next; one minute peace, and the next minute violent action on the part of the League of Nations. The whole thing is trifling with a situation that is one of the most difficult at this moment in Geneva; trifling with a problem that is one of the most important, and is going to be one of the most important, in the immediate history of the world. Hon. Members of the Opposition, without having made up their minds about it, have not produced a programme which really justifies a sharp division. I hope that the House will not waste too much time in coming to a decision in this matter, or that it will allow countries outside to assume that we take a very serious view of the situation in which we find ourselves this afternoon.
Let us take the next proposition. The hon. Member talked a great deal about plans—this plan in 1932, that plan and the other plan. I confess that my feelings about 1932 were that there were far too many plans, and that 1932 was a year when everybody who wanted to produce a plan produced it. Those plans, coming in one after another and being held in order for discussion, blocked one another, and wasted weeks and months of the time of 1932. It is greatly to the credit of the Government that in 1932 they produced no plans at all, but that they did their

597
best, all the time, to get the various plans that had been produced sifted, so that at last individual plans would cease to pour in, and conjoint action could be begun. That was the policy of the Government in 1932, and it has been perfectly justified. Hon. Members opposite have been in Hastings; we have been in Geneva. That is just the difference between us. We are working for an international agreement; not for a party propaganda declaration.
Take these propositions. Abstract from them what has been covered by the action and the declarations of the Government. What is left? Such things as police bombing and an international police force. How long is the Disarmament Conference to sit, in order to get an international police force created? That is not to be done in a week or a month; that is not to be done by resolution, or by an instrument of 20 or 30 clauses. What does this mean, this international police force? How is it to be created, and who is to officer it—a French general, an Italian airman, a German naval officer, a British soldier or the head of the staff from one or other of the Services? That would be an international police force drawn from exactly those people who, in every country, are strongest in their national loyalty because it is their business to be so; a collection of great soldiers, airmen, naval men—because they must be men of competence—simply joined together and considering plans, perhaps of offence against some of their own countries. And moved how? By a majority of the Council of the League of Nations, or unanimously? I leave it to the House to work that out and to imagine what sort of disarmament agreement you are going to get with an instrument establishing that, and embodying those consequences. If hon. Members do not mean that, why do they bring that proposition forward as an element in their censure to-day? Their censure to-day refers not to some very remote action on the part of this Government when it has been in office perhaps for 40 or 50 years, but it refers to this Parliament. Hon. Members really must be careful what they say. This is not a demand made upon this Government years and years ahead, but is a demand that the House of Commons should censure this Government because it has not, in connection with the existing Disarma-
598
ment Conference, embodied something about an international police force.
Let us take another point, that in regard to civil aviation. This is one of the very attractive things that might be all very well on a platform. I pay great tribute to hon. Members for selecting things that may be misleading but which centre the hopes of people. Separated from their point about bombing from the air is a proposal, made in this programme, about the control of civil aviation. We have made it a condition, and we will continue to make it a condition, that civil aviation shall be controlled internationally, more particularly in so far as civil aviation can become an immediate and a serious menace to the civil population, should war unfortunately break out. To scrap our air force, and to allow development without control on the lines that are now being pursued so rapidly and so successfully by our splendid engineers in charge of civil aviation, because there are great opportunities for development of that service over a vast continent or a collection of continents, would, in our geographical situation, be not only madness but criminality. There again, that point is embodied in our plan. Our plan calls for an immediate conference on this subject. We have tried to get it. The control of civil aviation raises the question of nationality at the head of the controlled force, and the question of manning the civil aviation. It raises the question of the building of the machines and of the relations between the civil aviation policy and the possible military policy. Again, months and months must he spent in working out plans that will be satisfactory to everybody, and clauses upon clauses must be drafted in order to make our position secure in a disarmament agreement. Do hon. Members mean to hold up disarmament until the Disarmament Conference has settled that?
There is one other point—equality. So far as disarmament is concerned, I want the House to be perfectly sure of this. The equality that was granted in principle was, on every hand, agreed to be reached by stages. I happened to preside over the conversations which discussed the matter, and which agreed to a recommendation to the Disarmament Conference. It was clearly understood to be by stages, the armed Powers making their contribution in the form of

599
disarmament, and the disarmed Powers—of which there was only one present at the Conference—to make its contribution in the form of increased security. The increased security was to be a declaration that the five Powers there present would not seek to resort to force, in order to redress grievances, for a period of years. So that, when bon. Members talk about equality, either inside this House or outside, they must remember that it was equality clearly understood to be reached by stages when it was first of all accepted. When the Draft Convention was moved by me on behalf of the Government in Geneva in March, I emphasised that point in my speech. The German delegate, who was present, followed, and he made no demur to that statement; and not only that, but, after it had been printed and considered and circulated, a debate took place in Geneva about it, and the German representatives agreed that that draft was to be the basis of the new Disarmament Convention. There is no doubt about that at all. Those who try to change the situation—because it is a change in the situation—and encourage the Germans to ask for things which they themselves never had any intention of asking for, are not helping disarmament.
The Government problem at the moment is an international agreement. It is no use getting two or three people to agree. That may be all right as a declaration at the moment, but, if we are to have disarmament, if we are trying to have an active movement in disarmament, there must be an international agreement, including Germany, for that purpose. But to-day there are several possibilities of helping that problem. The conditions are still involved; the results of yesterday have still to be observed, have still to be seen; and I feel perfectly certain that this House would not wish the Government here to say by what precise means they are going to use the existing unfortunate situation—to say how they are going to use it in this way or that way or the other way in order to get an international agreement. Sufficient for to-day is this: The Government believe that in the end there must be an international agreement if good is to come, and that, if that should fail, it will be their duty to make it clear to the
600
world on whose shoulders the blame for it must rest.
We are in close touch with France and Italy; the United States will be kept informed; and we are in touch with other nations, especially the smaller European nations, who have a great stake in this; and they, being at Geneva, are available for consultation. We ask the Germans to come in, not at the end, but now. We want Germany to be its own representative and its own spokesman. The exchanges of views and conversations to which I have made reference are not anti-German, but pro-European; they are not to punish, they are to establish peace in Europe. The problem we are trying to solve, and the way we are trying to find, in this entanglement of passion and propaganda and expectation and despair and hope, is the way to enable us, to enable the Governments of Europe, to enable the League of Nations, to establish peace in Europe. Whatever form those conversations may take will not involve any weakening of our loyalty to the League of Nations, nor any diminution of its status or authority. If there is anyone who says that, in order to deal with present difficulties, we should be asked to join in the destruction of the only existing machine of international co-operation, a machine for which no alternative has ever been proposed, our answer is "No."
As to the Disarmament Conference itself, we cannot admit that because Germany has withdrawn from it the work for disarmament ought not to go on. Germany's withdrawal has unquestionably greatly complicated the work of the Disarmament Conference, as I have just said. Germany's withdrawal, therefore, necessarily involves the consideration of ways and means and methods, and it would be unreasonable, as I have already said, to ask the Government to declare now and to-day its final view of all these questions. One thing is quite clear: the moving of this Censure Motion, and some of the proposals which it contains, would not be of the slightest assistance in helping to arrive at the best method of improving relations in Europe. I also want to make this clear. In these deliberations between Governments, and exchanges of view, no Government can compel any other Government to accept

601
risks which it believes are too great. We can put our case, we can argue, we can expound views, we can look round, with them, the whole of the problem and weigh up the pros and cons; but we cannot—and this is the difference between going to Hastings and going to Geneva—[HON. MEMBERS: "Or Birmingham !"] Certainly; but nobody from Birmingham has asked the Government to give a day for the discussion of a Resolution.
Mr. LANSBURY: I wish they would !
The PRIME MINISTER: If hon. Members would not mind—they know that I must be very careful in what I say, and I hope I may be allowed to proceed without interruption. I say that in these deliberations and exchanges of view no Government can compel any other Government to accept risks which it believes are too great, and, in any event, we cannot extend our international commitments as the price of what may be asked for in an ultimate agreement. Our Draft Convention remains the basis of Geneva deliberations; it has not been abandoned. When I moved it, I said that, if after examination it was found to require some amendment, we would consider the proposals that were made. My right hon. Friend, in making his last speech, which has been so much misreported and misinterpreted, made it quite clear that he was reporting, on the invitation of the chairman of the conference, on the result of the conversations he had had with certain heads of Governments upon the British Convention. That is the position in which it was then, and in that position it is now. I firmly believe that, if between now and the Division the Opposition would master the idea of the Convention and its contents, and remember the international position in which we are, remembering that what is expected and wanted of them now is to contribute to peace, not half-a-dozen would go into the Lobby in support of a Censure which has no substance in it, but can only damage the purpose for which it professes to have been moved.
5.12 p.m.
Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: There will be no doubt in any quarter of the House as to the strong feeling upon this subject which exists throughout the country, a feeling which must find its reflection
602
within these walls. The nation expects from the Government a clear objective, a strong resolution and an effective skill in reaching that objective. The country is not in the least interested in allocating blame for a failure. The right hon. Gentleman says that it is important to make clear, if a failure occurs, on whose shoulders the blame rests, but that is not a matter in which the nation takes the smallest interest; what the nation wants is a success. The nation cannot negotiate; Parliament cannot negotiate; Parliament can approve or oppose the general lines of a policy, but only the Executive can act, and Parliament must judge by results. If those results are successful, then the Ministers who achieve them are applauded; they are welcomed as generals returning after a victory. If the results are failure, they cannot escape a measure of condemnation.
The PRIME MINISTER: Perhaps I misunderstood my right hon. Friend, but I am very anxious that there should be no misunderstanding about one point. My right hon. Friend uses the word "blame". What I had in my mind was that, if everything fails in the future, then the world would know where the blame rests. I did not mean now.
Sir H. SAMUEL: I would much rather that a British Prime Minister should look forward contemplating success, and be determined to achieve it, than envisaging, apparently, a failure after which all that would remain would he to make it clear who was responsible. If I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman, I certainly shall not pursue the point, for I have no desire to impute to him any pessimism which might be read into his speech, and which apparently he did not intend to convey.
So far as the conduct of the Disarmament Conference is concerned, from its initiation a year and a-half ago until the present day, I am bound to say that I concur in the general judgment passed a few days ago by Lord Cecil in another place, that the action of the Government throughout has been inadequate to the need. There has frequently been a lack of energy, there has been a postponement of vital issues until after the propitious moment, sometimes, had passed. In order to bring home the point more clearly, I would specify three particular questions on which the action of the

603
Government has not conduced to the successful development of the Conference.
The first is that it should have been made clear from the beginning that French insistence upon security meant that it was vital to establish a machinery of effective international control, of supervision and inspection of armaments, that that was of the essence of the matter, but until quite recently the British Government, always holding back on the point, was unwilling to concede any really effective measure of inspection and control. Secondly, the whole of the naval side has been put into the background so far as capital ships are concerned and all that has been proposed is not that there should be any reduction in capital ships at present but that in future years, when the time came for replacement, the size of capital ships should be somewhat smaller than the size of those ships to-day. Thirdly, another essential issue is budgetary limitation. If you are going to give freely to various Powers the right to accumulate a large range of armaments below the specifically excepted aggressive weapons, there is no means of checking a great competition in armaments unless you have some measure of budgetary limitation. There again, the British Government have not endeavoured to frame any effective scheme of budgetary limitation, but have left it to the technical committees to work, almost without guidance, on minor points. It has not laid down any bold declaration of policy on the necessity for limiting expenditure.
In general, looking at the whole as from a distance, during the last year and a-half, although certain members of the British Government have worked zealously and hard at Geneva, in the main there is not that earnest urge on the part of the British Cabinet as a whole which is really essential to secure success. [Interruption.] The hon. and learned Gentleman is inviting me to make a statement which it would be exceedingly improper for me to make. I do not propose to say what were my relations with my colleagues or what memoranda may have been presented, or what discussions took place during that time. It is certain that, while there are many Members of the Cabinet who are quite zealous on the matter, the Government are somewhat held back by elements in the country,
604
particularly powerful in the Conservative party, which are sceptical, to use a mild word, with regard to the whole movement for disarmament and international control.
Sir BASIL PETO: The right hon. Gentleman is urging very strongly that budgetary control over armaments is essential. How does he suggest that it is possible to have any budgetary control when there are no operative Parliaments in most of the great countries in Europe?
Sir H. SAMUEL: The hon. Baronet has not given the subject the close attention which he usually gives to political questions. Of course, every country has its Budget, and the Budgetary Commission of the Disarmament Conference has drawn up the most elaborate forms for possible budgetary control with which any country which acceded to them would have to comply. Also a general system of inspection and control would apply to this as to other matters. The hon. Baronet has made an altogether false point.
There are very many elements in the country which have great faith in our own armaments and very little faith in the disarmament of other people. They will be quite prepared to see this country in a position of isolation. They anticipate, and would not greatly regret, the collapse of the Conference, and they do not perhaps fully realise that its collapse would mean a possible competitive race of armaments in which this country would be involved in enormous expenditure, for it is these same elements in the country which often are pressing most keenly for reductions of taxation and complain most bitterly of the taxpayer's burden. They accept that maxim which appeals very much to every simple honest citizen—more expenditure and less taxation.
Then here as elsewhere there are the armament interests which are powerful. I was a little surprised that the President of the Board of Trade, speaking not long ago at Sheffield—a point to which attention was drawn by the Leader of the Opposition—said he hoped we were working right up to the limit in our naval programme, not only for the sake of the nation but for Sheffield. That is a very dangerous course to take, to allow the country to be influenced in its armaments, and possibly to begin a race of

605
armaments, in order to give employment to certain armament firms and districts. I did not think that speech was really the voice of a crusader for Disarmament such as we are asked to believe all the present Government are. We have another element in the country, the ultra-Imperialists; for example, Lord Beaverbrook, with his powerful Press, who would have been regarded as reactionary even by the cavemen, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), who attack disarmament and the League of Nations in the interest, as they think, of the British Empire. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spark-brook, speaking in the House the other day, in effect said we should look not to Geneva but to the British Commonwealth. We must make a choice, and we ought to subordinate international co-operation to commonwealth co-operation.
This is a point of immense importance in these discussins to which I would ask the House to give its attention for a few moments, because I have lately returned from an inter-Imperial conference at Toronto which discussed precisely these points. About fifty unofficial representatives gathered together by the Canadian Institute of International Affairs with the co-operation here of the Royal Institute of International Affairs, met at Toronto to discuss Commonwealth relations—many of them men of administrative and Parliamentary experience, some of them representative of the younger generation of this country, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India, having no official responsibility at all but representing very considerable bodies of opinion. The conclusion that was arrived at—I shall be confirmed in this by three Members of the House who were present, the Solicitor—General, whom I congratulate on his appointment, the hon. Baronet the Member for Wimbledon (Sir J. Power) and the junior Member for Oldham (Mr. H. Kerr), all Members of the Conservative party—was that Dominions representatives attached supreme importance to the maintenance of a collective system of the management of international affairs and to the loyal co—operation of all parts of the British Commonwealth in the League of Nations. Every step away from the League is not a step towards the Dominions. It is a step away from them also, for they are in
606
the League and of it, keen and loyal members of it. If you go away from Geneva, Geneva includes them. Britain's loyalty to the League and participation in its activities is a powerful factor, and on occasion might be a decisive factor, in the Dominions' attitude towards the British Commonwealth itself. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook or Lord Beaverbrook in their enthusiasm for Empire think that by criticising, depreciating and attacking the League of Nations they are rendering any service to Imperial unity, they are profoundly mistaken. Nothing would be so likely to alienate the Dominions than for Great Britain in any degree to abandon the League.
The fact remains that there is this tendency towards inaction. Political supporters of the Government do not bear them forward, but rather hold them back. Their own enthusiasm, energy and zeal do not greatly carry them forward, for these are qualities, I am afraid, not native to this Government. They are kept up to the mark by public opinion, by the electorate and by this House, and the House ought not to take any action—I certainly should not cast any vote—which would add to the complacency which is native to this Government, or be construed as giving the impression that the country is satisfied with the action taken in the matter of disarmament. I believe the country is not. It is essential that a proposal should be made to Germany which enlightened opinion in this country, in the Dominions, in the United States and throughout the world will regard as just, and which Germany could be reasonably expected to accept. There is, of course, the natural reaction of the average liberty-loving Englishman, who feels an intense revulsion against many of the things that have been done in Germany, and in this and other countries there are many who are inclined to say we should make no concession, we should seek no agreement with people who make themselves impossible. Holding that they are a peril to Europe, the only course to be taken is to apply to them a measure of that force of which they are themselves devotees. I do not think that is a right course.
There are some who might expect that I, in particular, in view of the attacks upon the race to which I belong, the

607
monstrous insults and gross oppression, he flagrant denial of elementary justice —as a consequence of the bitter resentment and intense indignation which I, personally, must feel, would be naturally disposed to take that view; but I have always held that any man who has any responsibility in public affairs, who allows personal feelings to warp his political judgment is of little service to his fellow-countrymen. So I put all that aside, and I ask only what course is wise in the presence of the Germany of to-day. It seems to me certain that the present situation with regard to disarmament in Europe cannot continue indefinitely. If, after the Napoleonic wars, at the Congress of Vienna the Powers had said to France, "You have kept Europe in turmoil for 20 years, now that you are defeated you shall be disarmed and shall remain disarmed in the presence of an armed Europe," no wise man at that time would have expected that that could last through the Nineteenth Century. It would have been an impossible proposition. And the Conference at Paris in 1919 did not attempt to lay down any such proposition. On the contrary, insisting upon disarmament for the defeated Powers, they did definitely anticipate that that would be followed by a general measure of disarmament, and that was specifically declared.
That is the situation in which we find ourselves to-day, 15 years after the, Declaration of Peace. I would wish that the moral opinion of the world should continue to be outspoken in disapproval of many of the measures which are proceeding inside Germany, and that the censure which has been expressed, as it has been, has already, possibly, had some effect, and may have some effect in the future. Germany has been proud that by common agreement of all the countries of the world she has held, and has been recognised as holding, a foremost place in the ranks of civilisation, and if she has now done things which brings her down to a lower level, and if the other countries make her feel that they so regard her, then, sooner or later, I believe the eyes of her people will be opened. They will be ashamed of some of the things which have been done, and there will come a change. Meantime, the armament issue exists. It is here. It is real. It is urgent. It is not to be put
608
aside by generalities, aspirations, formulas, platitudes. We must do something or do nothing, and to do nothing is in itself an action. If Germany rearms, and there are rumours—I do not know whether they are well-founded or not—what then? The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said the other day in the Debate in this House:
"We are confident that, if Germany starts re-arming—some people say she is already doing so, and has been doing so—that ought to be stopped quite definitely." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1933; col. 80, Vol. 281.]
That is his view. By whom and how? Suppose Germany does re-arm, and suppose she refuses to answer any questions, denies the authority of anyone to challenge such action as she may be taking. What then? Her neighbours may call for intervention. The League of Nations may have to take cognisance of the matter. It will have a choice of courses. The worst course that could be chosen would be to threaten and not to act. It was a wise saying of Senator Elihu Root.
"The country which shakes its fist first and its finger afterwards soon falls into contempt."
And if action is taken and troops march and aeroplanes attack, and there is resistance on the part of Germany or of some elements in Germany, it is very essential that public opinion—the general body of public opinion in this country and throughout Europe, in America and in the Dominions—should feel sure that the League of Nations is acting with full justification. That is why it appears to me to be so essential at this juncture that the nations should make an offer to Germany which Germany could reasonably be expected to accept. The Prime Minister just now said that Germany had accepted the basis of the Draft Convention and that, so I gathered from him—I am not quite sure that I interpreted what he said rightly—there had been no change since then to justify Germany's withdrawal. But there is one very great change. The latest proposal involves the postponement of the greater part of the action to be taken for four years, or for such period less than four years as might, after discussion, be agreed. But four years was the period quoted. During that time arrangements should be made for

609
reducing the armies of Europe to what may be called a militia level. No new aggressive weapons were to be obtained by any of the adhering Powers, but, on the other hand, they were not to be required during that period to get rid of any of the armaments which they now possessed. There was to be merely a promise of future action, definite no doubt if it could be obtained, but just a promise. The Foreign Secretary objects to the term "probationary period." May I call it a promissory period?
Meantime, the one effective thing to be done was to set up a system of international inspection and control, and the Foreign Secretary emphasised the fact that that is to be applied to all alike. There is no inequality so far as Germany is concerned. If she is asked to accept inspection, so are all the rest of the Powers. But what is the purpose of the inspection? What are the inspectors to do? They are to see to it that the status quo is preserved; that Germany is not to obtain any of the weapons or increase her armaments in any way beyond, possibly, the reorganisation of her army; that she is not to do anything new; and the Powers themselves undertake not to do anything new, and are subjected equally to the maintenance of the status quo. It is not to make sure of the reduction of armaments in the armed States, but that there shall be no increase of arms in the disarmed State, so that it displays an apparent equality in order to perpetuate a real inequality. During this initial period we should see actually in being a system of inspection established by the League of Nations at Geneva which should go about Germany checking the reality of the completeness of her present disarmament, and go about the other countries merely to secure that their present enormous armaments were not being further enlarged. It may be apparent equality, but it is not equality in fact.
So that I suggest very earnestly that this matter should be re-considered, and a fresh offer made on definite lines. For two reasons. Firstly, if this is done, and if some definite action should have to be taken against Germany in the near future for breach of the treaties, we should all feel sure that we were on strong moral grounds, and, secondly, because it appears to be most desirable that we should envisage as our objective the return, not perhaps immediately but ulti-
610
mately, of Germany to the League. Her withdrawal was unjustified, and if it can be reversed it should be reversed. We should also envisage, and our policy should be directed to securing it if possible—I do not say by the surrender of principles to which we attach great importance, but by a carefully considered policy—the return of Japan, and possibly the entry of Russia and ultimately, maybe, the United States. For not until then can the collective system in which we believe be fully established.
The Motion which is before the House is, in my view, utterly wrong in its form. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said that he did not desire to put down a, Motion of this sort. He said:
"We should prefer not to put them down as a Vote of Censure, because we should like to take the considered judgment of the House on them as proposals to put before the Disarmament Conference."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1933; col. 78, Vol. 281.]
But, owing to the exigencies of the Parliamentary Rules, he has been obliged to put them down in this form, on which the House of Commons cannot really give a considered judgment. In any case, as I said at the beginning, it is not for the House of Commons to endeavour to conduct negotiations. That must be left to the Executive of the day. Suppose the other Parliaments concerned were all to table resolutions in a different form—France, Italy, Germany, if she still has a Parliament, though I am not sure at the moment, all the different countries all over the world were to draw up lists of specific proposals in detail and put them down as instructions to their Governments? Would that he likely to result in an international agreement at the Conference? Would it not rather tie the hands of negotiators? In fact, the Resolution raises a new issue of principle as to how far the legislature should seek to go in matters of detail when an international negotiation is proceeding.
Take one point to which the Prime Minister has drawn attention. Included in these heads from (a) to (h) is the letter (g), which proposes the establishment of an international police force, to which to—day this House is asked to express its assent by passing this Resolution. If all the nations were disarmed completely, or almost completely, I could conceive that it would be essential to

611
have something in the nature of an international armed force in order to prevent minor disputes and to maintain international order. I realise the ideal which is in view, but in the world as it is, what is to be the nature of this international police force, and how is it to operate? There are some who think that it would be easy at Geneva to establish a large number of formidable bombing aeroplanes, and if any dispute arose anywhere in the world an air squadron should come out of the sky, like an archangel in the Apocalypse with a flaming sword, and drive back an aggressor and stop a war. But aeroplanes are mundane things. They have to operate from a base not far away, and in case of resistance, undoubtedly, they would have to be supported by ground troops, and possibly, in some cases, by naval forces. It may be said that they might not be resisted, but they might.
By calling it a police force you are merely begging the question. What you term a police force might prove to be several army corps, and a fleet of battleships. For example, in the Manchurian dispute, do you envisage a course of events in the nature of sending a constable of the Metropolitan Police to hold out his hand to stop the Japanese army? Or in some comparatively minor dispute as between Paraguay and Bolivia, do you envisage sending out a force from Geneva if one or other party proved recalcitrant and did not accept the proposal made, in order to occupy the capital of that country, or even to occupy the contested territory in the Chaco? And in many cases which have already been settled by the League—disputes between Italy and Greece, Greece and Bulgaria, this country and Turkey, this country and Persia, if any of those had become acute, would it have been a strength to the League and increased its authority if it had had power to draw upon all the various Powers to send a coercive force against the one which appeared to be in the wrong?
I believe that this proposal would not assist the League, but would greatly hinder it. It is hard enough already to secure unanimity in the Council of the League for any course of action in time of crisis. But if unanimity meant calling up an armed force from various territories, it would be a great hindrance in
612
securing effective action. The constitution of the United States definitely forbids any such participation, so that would be a further barrier to its taking part in the work of the League. How many of the countries would be in a position to pledge their Parliaments in advance that on any occasion when called upon they would be willing to vote the money and to send the men which these operations would require? This proposal would try the League too high, and I, who am a convinced adherent of League policy and regard the establishment of the League as by far the greatest event in the modern history of mankind, would strongly deprecate the advocacy of this proposal, for I believe that so far from helping, it would do the League of Nations injury at the present stage. I do not demur to other proposals in this list, but if they are to be entered upon the Order Paper of the House of Commons, the House must have the opportunity of expressing a considered opinion with regard to them. It is not enough to say that these are a list of proposals of this or of that party conference, This is not a party conference, nor is this a debating society. This is the Parliamentary assembly of the British House of Commons, asked to give directions to the Government of the day as to the course they should take in making proposals to the whole world, and it is not consonant with the dignity of the House that they should be asked to accept as a single whole a series of propositions without the fullest opportunity for consideration.
The Government have said that the door is open for further negotiations, and we rejoice in that. I would earnestly hope that they will not be deterred by the enormous difficulties of the international situation from proceeding along those lines. From 1914 to 1918 Britain clung tenaciously to her task of winning the War, and such tenacity has been regarded by historians as one of the chief characteristics of this nation. I hope that the British people will show the same tenacity in establishing the peace.
5.46 p.m.
Mr. WILMOT: I do not propose, as a new Member, to presume to occupy the attention of the House for more than a few minutes. I listened with very great interest to the speech of the Prime

613
Minister and to the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, as I listened to the speech of the Foreign Secretary on my first day in this House, and I am bound to say, with great respect, that those speeches filled me with dismay. They seemed to me charged with a sense of impending disaster, as if those who are responsible for the foreign policy of this country are beginning to lose hope of the possibility of ever securing any real and effective measure of disarmament. I believe that it is that feeling, that the Government have lost control of the situation, and that after 15 years of waiting the British people see very little hope of tangible and immediate results, which is responsible for the somewhat remarkable results registered in recent by-elections. I speak as one who has lately come to this House as the result of a by-election in London, about which there has been some considerable comment. On my first day here I listened to charges, and I think they were repeated to-day, against myself and others with regard to the conduct of that campaign.
It has been said that we went about fomenting terror and using that terror for the purpose of snatching votes for party ends. As one of those most nearly concerned in the election which I have mentioned, I would beg to say that such a statement is entirely untrue. This election campaign put before the people, in what was a consistently Conservative Division of London, the Labour party's policy; the campaign had not been in progress for more than a few days before it was obvious to everybody that there was being shown in that election, as a symptom of what is a general feeling, a passionate and insistent desire for peace, not merely a purely nebulous desire for peace, but a demand that that desire should he translated into some practical disarmament accomplishment. It was the registration of that feeling of loss of faith and loss of hope that the Government were going to accomplish something real and sound which was responsible, in my view, for the turnover of nearly 20,000 votes in that particular division, and also for the repetition of a similar thing on not quite so large a scale in both the by-elections which have followed; in both those by-elections the Government secured many thousand votes fewer than the anti-Government candidates.
614
I submit, with all respect, that this feeling of the public on the question of peace is not a thing which we are called upon to deplore. It is something in which we should rejoice. If it is true, as I believe it is, that public opinion among plain and ordinary men and women is in advance of the Government of the day on this question, that also is a matter about which we should rejoice on both sides of the House. I believe the time has come when some definite action must be taken. Something must be done soon to prevent the whole elaborate machinery of collective peace, which was brought into being largely through the initiative of this country, from crumbling away. I do not believe that it will sustain many more shocks of the kind that have been delivered against it during the last two years. My final word is this, and I say it with all respect to the House, that I feel that we who are English people should demand that the greatness of our country should once again be registered in leading the world; leading in a positive policy to secure tangible results at the earliest possible moment.
5.51 p.m.
Colonel GRETTON: Not in any conventional sense, but frankly and definitely, I congratulate the hon. Member on his maiden speech. He will not expect all of us to agree with all that he has said, and I will not endeavour to disturb his electoral satisfaction as to the causes to which he attributes the majority which has made him a Member of this House. He ended his speech, as others who have spoken before him ended theirs, by saying that something definite must be done, but he was not able to enlighten us as to what that definite action should be, to promote peace and save the League of Nations. In these Debates a tone of pessimism has arisen. May that not be due to some recognition of the real underlying facts of the present position? There is no one who wants war; indeed, everyone desires to promote and maintain peace. The only difference between us is as to the most effective means of promoting peace.
The right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), spoke with great force on the necessity of the League of Nations preserving peace, but he was not able to tell us how that is to be done. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan

615
Jones) said that violent action, or words to that effect, should be taken by the League, and I think the right hon. Member for Darwen, although he did not use the word "violent," said that something like decisive action should be taken. What action can we take? There is a large body of opinion in this country which thinks that the Government have gone too far in their disarmament policy, that its members have not, perhaps, described fully the situation in which we find ourselves, and that we have incurred great risks and are daily incurring risks owing to the position to which this Government and other Governments have allowed our national defences to decline. What are the facts, or some of the facts, of the situation? The League of Nations has never had on it all the representatives of the great Powers. Russia and the United States have never been members of the League, and Japan and Germany have withdrawn from it.
How can we expect or anticipate general disarmament when four of the great Powers of the world are outside the Disarmament Conference and outside the League of Nations? America has not been and cannot be a member of the League. President Wilson came to the Peace Conference and was one of the principal authors of the League of Nations, and he desired to pledge his country to support it to the full, but the Foreign Relations Committee of the Senate and the Congress would have nothing to do with tying the United States to the skirts of an assembly in Geneva. They decided then, and they still hold, that the foreign policy and action of the United States should remain in their own hands and not he subject to the control of any convention or League of Nations whatsoever. Notwithstanding, they have sent observers to take part in the deliberations and to voice the views of the United States, but neither those observers nor the President of the United States are able to enter into agreement to bind that country to action unless they can obtain the sanction of the Foreign Relations Committee of the Senate.
How are we to bring Germany back into the League of Nations and the Disarmament Conference? The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken and others agree that it is desirable that they should come back, but on what terms?
616
It will not help matters to take part in negotiations if by those negotiations the German Government is encouraged to make higher demands. One cannot ignore the results of the vote taken in Germany only a day or two ago which gave an enormous majority of German voters approving the withdrawal of Germany from the League of Nations. That vote makes it much more difficult for any German Government at the present time to reverse the verdict of the German people and go back again into the League of Nations against their expressed will. To-day the newspapers contain the definite statement, which has not been denied in this Debate, that Itady also proposes to withdraw from the Disarmament Conference and is to stand there only as an observer taking no part in the proceedings.
Some years back there was the Treaty or Pact of Locarno, which was made above the heads of the League of Nations, outside the League, and which depends in many of its provisions on the arbitration of the questions in dispute before the League of Nations. That part of the Pact of Locarno seems to have been forgotten. It seems to have been forgotten that many of its provisions say that in matters of dispute action must be taken before the League of Nations before resort to the arbitrament of war. How can that be done in the case of a country which has left the League of Nations, repudiated the League, and which refuses to act as member of the League? Germany by withdrawing from the League of Nations has shattered the Pact of Locarno, which has been so greatly extolled by some hon. Members. What has happened to the complicated and difficult question, that we in this country shall come to the aid of any one party to the Pact in case of attack? I would observe that it is by no means clear that in case Great Britain should be attacked by another Power there is any undertaking in the Locarno Treaty that any of the other signatories would come to our aid. The truth of the matter is that Locarno has served its purpose. Now that Germany has left it the foundations of Locarno have been shattered and it provides no guide or assistance to foreign policy.
But are we in a position to fulfil our part in the Locarno Pact? Have we

617
armaments or the power to enable us to carry out the undertakings which we may be called upon to fulfil? Let us look at the case as it might arise. Suppose France were attacked by Germany; do our armaments to-day suffice to enable us to carry out our undertaking to go to war? Let us make no mistake about it. Why did we go to war in 1914? We did so to defend the neutrality of Belgium, and the Treaty of 1830. Why did we make that Treaty? We made that Treaty because we though that the neutrality of Belgium then, and ever since, was necessary for the safety of this country. Our own security was involved by the attack made on Belgium's neutrality.
Mr. DAVID MASON: Will the right hon. and gallant Member allow me——
Colonel GRETTON: That is all clear, it is a page of history. Suppose France should make an attack on Germany, go into the Ruhr or the Saar Valley, and be judged by the League of Nations to be the aggressor. We are called upon under the Locarno Pact to ally ourselves with Germany; and we do so. Will our Air Force allow us to do so? Will our Navy in the English Channel, with the present number of torpedo boats and submarines and cruisers, enable us to take a free and independent part in such an action? That is a matter which may be answered by the technical experts responsible for our military and naval forces, but laymen outside have the greatest doubts of our ability in such a case. The Government are talking all the time about disarmament. We are disarmed already, far more than any other great nation of the world. We have reduced our armaments, and our power of negotiation has gone. We are asking other nations to follow our example. Does anyone imagine that this Government, or any other Government, responsible for the safety of this country would undertake to cut down our defences in military, naval or air strength below the point at which they now stand unless all the other great Powers cut down their armaments to a point which has not yet been contemplated by the most sanguine of those who expect great things from the Disarmament Conference?
The fact is that we have been disarming and all the other great Powers arming; and some of the lesser Powers, too.
618
The United States, armed. The Treaty of London, the Naval Pact of London, or whatever name it bears, was an agreement to disarm down to the level to which the United States was prepared to build. We and Japan agreed to that Treaty; we agreed that there should be equality between our Navy and that of the United States, and to establish that equality the United States had to build in all branches of the naval service except capital ships. Japan obtained a small increase; but no other great naval Powers entered into that Pact. France and Italy, the two principal nations outside that agreement, have been expanding and improving their fleets, as it seemed good to them, without let or hindrance. The United States of America, as part of her reconstruction programme, is to spend, I see, about £47,000,000 upon reconstructing her navy, including the reconstruction of her battleships. The United States has increased her navy; and the naval rivalry between Japan and the United States is a factor which cannot be left out of calculation in the international situation.
Has Russia disarmed? Is she disarming? Rather the reverse. She is speaking with increased minatory language to Japan and threatening war if she does not get the consideration she requires. What is happening in Europe? France is nervous, as she well may be having suffered two great invasions during the lifetime of many present, and will not drop her defences unless she is absolutely assured that she will be safe from attack again. Switzerland, also bordering on Germany, is arming and taking measures to defend her frontiers in case of aggression; and Switzerland has no money in her budget to waste. Belgium is spending large sums of money on frontier fortifications. It is clear that the European situation has been greatly disturbed by the action of Germany—and Germany's demand is for equality in arms. Make no mistake about it, that is the German demand. What are we to do in these circumstances? It seems to many of us that this constant running after conferences, this desperate anxiety for international agreement, is only provoking disagreement. It seems to me that by the more skilful old-fashioned diplomacy much more might be accomplished.
Has not the history of the last few years taught our Government that all these

619
great international conferences and leagues are failures in deciding the great questions of the world? There are other means of arriving at international agreement. You can do so by patient diplomacy, by preparing the ground for agreement, and by giving evidence of sincerity while the negotiations are taking place. There is little to be hoped from the Disarmament Conference at this stage, and I suggest that it would be wiser and better for the world, better for the advocates of peace and more effective in promoting peace, that this unhappy and ill-starred conference, to which so much effort and exertion have been devoted for two years past, should be dropped at any rate for the time being and that we should proceed to settle the differences which are causing disturbance and disagreement by other means. Are we not proceeding from the wrong end? Are we not beginning at the wrong place? Would not disarmament be more hopeful and make better progress if the grievances of nations were more fully settled? It seems to me that those people who talk of disarmament and cry "peace" when there is no peace, are doing a disservice to their own country and to mankind. In the case of war, should it unhappily occur, we require strength and ability to maintain our neutrality, so that we shall not be buffeted or be the victim of contending nations. I am one of those who think in the old-fashioned way that Englishmen and Britons ought to be patriotic and let their country come first. We should take care that our armaments in an armed world are sufficient to maintain the security, honour and peace of our own country.
6.16 p.m.
Mr. MURRAY-PHILIPSO N: It is with considerable diffidence that I rise for the first time to address the House on a subject of such vital importance as disarmament and international peace, but if the House will bear with me I feel that I may be excused for a very few minutes, because it is really vital that we should endeavour in these discussions to get down to a basis of reality as opposed to a basis of talk. I wish to approach this problem on two distinct lines of thought, namely, what hope and expectancy have achieved, and what reason and reality have taught. In
620
the first place, on the basis of hope, it is an undoubted fact, that Great Britain has reduced her armaments to an extent which is not only an example to the rest of the world, but to an extent which, in my opinion, definitely places this country in a state of danger. There is no question, that in the air we are grossly underarmed and are incapable of protecting ourselves or looking after our responsibilities throughout our Empire. This Government and every Government since the War, has made the best of its opportunities and endeavoured in every way to see that other nations were in harmony of thought with ourselves.
The Motion which has been moved is not only hypocritical, but is brought about by a spirit of disbelief in what we have done, and can therefore do no good whatever at present or the future. From among the many conferences in which our statesmen have been engaged the Locarno Treaty emerged, and I will have a few words to say about that when I put the other side of my argument, namely, what reason tells us as opposed to what we like to hope. Germany has left the League of Nations, and if we follow the same principles as we have been following since the War we hope, first, that she will return, and, secondly, that she will not re-arm. The Government in all endeavour to reconcile the Opposition have actually gone so far as to try to persuade the Opposition that it was not going to help their point of view to bring forward a Motion of this kind when the question of disarmament was being discussed. In other words, we are left high and dry in this House with a feeling that there is nothing to hope for. I have listened to every speech on the subject and have searched in vain for any constructive policy.
I turn, therefore, to what reality and reason tell me to be the answer to the question regarding disarmament. What has happened as the result of our example? As I have said, we have disarmed to the point of danger, and yet no other nation in the world has followed our example. Reason, therefore, tells me that we have gone far enough on that line, and that it is time to consider seriously what we are to do in the future.

621
Then with regard to the conferences which every Government, including the present Government, has been engaged in for years in an attempt to find a solution of the difficulties that confront Europe. The reason why the conferences have failed is that the part which the British Government has had to play has been an impossible one. The British Government have been trying to reconcile irreconcilable points of view. We have had on the one hand the French point of view, and on the other hand the German point of view. It has been found impossible, in spite of the efforts which have been made by statesmen of all parties, to reconcile those two points of view, because the wounds left by the Great War and by the war before that, have been too deep to make reconciliation possible. Those who condemn the present Government for not having done their best entirely omit the main reason why agreement has not been reached, namely, that it has been am impossible situation with which the Government have had to deal.
Let me refer to my third subject, Locarno. If we look up the Treaty, we find quite clearly that Locarno means nothing and this is confirmed by the highest authorities. Therefore, I suggest in all sincerity that it should be stated once for all that the Locarno Treaty has not only been broken flagrantly by every signatory except Britain, but that it means absolutely nothing. I beg that we should begin to bring some air of reality into our discussions, for to leave a matter of such importance to the imagination is not likely to help towards a solution of our difficulties regarding Germany. I have said that we all hope Germany would re-enter the League. But does any one in this House seriously think that Germany is going to re-enter the League in the course of the next week or month or year? If Germany does not—I am sure that is the expectation of almost all hon. Members—why not face the facts? I believe that if we honestly face facts which are incontrovertible, we shall be more likely to find a solution of our problems than we shall by following the course of make belief. There is the question of the re-armament of Germany, to which I have referred under the heading of "Hope." It is common knowledge
622
that Germany has partially re-armed; not only that, but probably a little bit more. I suggest that it is impossible to under-estimate the position resulting from that state of affairs. I hope it will be possible not only to find a solution of the difficulties resulting, but that we shall go forward on a new course based on realisation of the facts instead of empty hope.
I suggest that the Government take the Opposition in this House slightly too seriously. Every speech which has been made to the Opposition from the Government Benches has dealt solely with the Opposition's point of view. In taking too international an outlook the Government do perhaps succeed in pleasing Socialist Members, but at the same time they definitely alienate an immense amount of their own supportees throughout the country. Most seriously I suggest that the time has come when we must face facts. It is not possible to think of the present state of affairs without realising that we have got lost in international conferences which are going to lead us nowwhere. I urge that our destiny as a great race has never lain necessarily or altogether in Europe. We have an Empire of which we have never made the best use. We have spent our energy and money in attempts to bring about agreement amongst nations. I hope and trust the Government will seriously consider developing the Empire along lines or on a scale which will lead not only to the well-being of the English people, but of all those who speak the English tongue throughout the world.
6.26 p.m.
Sir GEORGE GILLETT: In the first place, I wish to offer the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Murray-Philipson) my sincere congratulations on his maiden speech. I am sure that the House will be only too glad to hear him on other occasions when he may wish to speak. I entirely agree with the hon. Member that what we need in this Debate is to grasp the realities of the position. On that account I am rather glad that we have had the speech of the right hon. and gallant Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton), because it seemed to me that he painted the picture of the European and world position in

623
about as dark a way as it was possible to paint it. While he was speaking I asked myself, even if everything that he said was correct, what did he suggest should be done in order to improve the position? The right hon. and gallant Member referred to the rivalry between Japan and the United States in naval armaments. He was quite correct. Both those countries are increasing their navies. Both of them have their budgets unbalanced. If we are to adopt the policy of the right hon. and gallant Member, where is a bankrupt world going to? That is taking no other outlook than the mere monetary outlook. Several States in Europe are bankrupt to-day. Several States in South America are in difficulties. Even what are called the great nations of the world hardly know how to make both ends meet. Yet at the present time the total expenditure on armaments throughout the world is in the neighbourhood of £1,000,000,000, which might be used in other ways. If the League of Nations fails, if we do away with it, as the right hon. and gallant Member has suggested——
Colonel GRETTON: No, I did not suggest that we should get rid of the League, but that we should drop the Disarmament Conference at the present juncture.
Sir G. GILLETT: The Conference seems to me to be an integral part of the whole policy of the League. If we are not going to disarm, if we are not to come to an understanding on this great question of armaments, how is the world going to face the industrial and social problems that lie before it? I cannot see that there is any hope for the world except in some organisation like the League of Nations. It is only upon such lines that we can build up the system of our civilisation in the future. As to the Vote of Censure which has been moved, in one respect I think the Government may consider themselves happy, in that already they have been criticised for not having done enough, while on the other hand the right hon. and gallant Member for Burton has expressed the view that they have already gone too far. Personally, I think it very unfortunate that these great international questions should have to be brought into the world
624
of party politics. If it were possible to leave them outside party politics, it would be much better, especially under the present very difficult condition.
I cannot understand the arguments used by some speakers, including, I understand, my hon. Friend who moved this Motion, in regard to the action of this Government concerning the Japanese controversy. I should like to remind my hon. Friend of the fact that one of the first moves which Japan made was made at a time when this country was passing through very acute financial difficulties. Another move was made at the time when America was passing through her great financial difficulty. When some ardent pacifists such as my hon. Friend ask that action should be taken against Japan, I ask them in turn: What action do they consider that the Government ought to have taken at that time? If a boycott had been organised by the nations of the world, what would have been the inevitable result? Surely, Japan would have attempted to break the boycott and would have taken action in China which would have brought us face to face with the question of whether we were going to war in order to defend China or not. It is exceedingly difficult to understand the outlook of those who, on the one hand, say that they are pacifists and, on the other hand, ask that this violent action should be taken in regard to Japan.
Turning to another question raised by this Vote of Censure, there is, as far as one can gather, complaint by the Opposition that the action of the Government has not been sufficiently strenuous at the Disarmament Conference. It is exceedingly difficult to criticise the Government in this matter, because we never know what has been done by our Government to suggest to those with whom we are working that certain action should be taken. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) was challenged as to what action he had taken in the Cabinet. He said he was unable to state what he had done as a Member of the Cabinet, and we have to accept what was done as the united action of the Cabinet. It is the same in the case of those who are working- together in a Conference of this kind. If a policy has failed we cannot know which member of the alliance is actually to blame for its failure. Thus it is difficult in a Debate

625
of this kind to discuss this question from the standpoint adopted by the Opposition.
I listened with interest to what the Prime Minister said on the Government's position as regards Germany. The right hon. and gallant Member for Burton has explained the German position from the standpoint of those who take a very gloomy view of the present situation. We cannot tell what is in the minds of the Germans, but it seems to me that as far as we are concerned we have to go on working for a Disarmament understanding. What is required is that those nations who are left in the League and left in the Disarmament Conference should get together—and I understand that this is the policy of the Government—and draw up their proposals for a Disarmament Convention. If that Convention is turned down by Germany, then at any rate we shall know exactly where all those countries stand on this question and where Germany stands. Until we have made such an attempt, to cease in our efforts would only bring upon us the very evils of which we have such fear.
Any new policy in connection with Germany has to envisage three main points. The first is equality of rights. While we are making the proposals contained in the Draft Convention now before the Conference and while other nations are bringing forward their measures of Disarmament, we have to ask Germany that she should not re-arm. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition when he says that he considers that Germany ought not to re-arm. Of course the only chance at the present time of bringing about an understanding is that Germany should agree to wait for a few more years. I recognise that Germany has a complaint against the other nations. When the Versailles Treaty was made, Germany was compelled to disarm, and the impression was created that the other nations would disarm. To-day no other great nation, except Great Britain, can be said to have made any contribution towards real Disarmament. But even granting that to be the case, still we have to make our contribution by offering to carry out the measures of Disarmament necessary to bring about that element of equality between the great nations which seems fundamental to a solution of this problem.
626
Then there is the question of collective security. I have listened with special interest in this Debate to the references to an international police force. It is well-known that this proposal is exceedingly distasteful to the extreme pacifist section and I observed the way in which my hon. Friend the Mover of the Motion slurred over that question. Obviously the proposal was part of the programme which he had to adopt but it was distasteful to him. The Leader of the Opposition may be interested to know that I was at a meeting a short time ago at which reference was made to the right hon. Gentleman's position on this question. One ardent pacifist at that meeting said that the Leader of the Opposition had declared in favour of the total abolition of the Army, the Navy and the Air Force—a proposal which met with his entire approval. But, he added, a short time afterwards the Leader of the Opposition had declared himself in favour of an international police force. The speaker then metaphorically threw up his hands and declared that he felt the position of the right hon. Gentleman to be hopeless.
As I say, I have listened with interest to the discussion of this matter, and especially to the very able way in which my right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen referred to the difficulties connected with it. While recognising these difficulties I believe it is a part of the problem which is before us. The nations have never yet thought out the great question of carrying out the work of the League of Nations and of the police force, if it may be so described, that may be necessary, in some form or another, as a part of any organised system of law among the nations of the world. Criticism has been made of the Government in regard to the line taken on such questions as tanks and air bombing and the size of battleships. I feel that those who have made those criticisms have not sufficiently realised how many of these questions have to be faced by our Government from a standpoint which is quite different from the standpoint of the continental nations. We had, I was going to say a most enthusiastic speech—though that might be hardly a fair description—from an hon. Member of the Liberal party on the subject of air bombing. He pointed out the value for police

627
purposes of the use of aircraft on the Indian frontier but then apparently feeling that he was becoming a little too enthusiastic, he went on to say that of course he did not believe in the Air Force doing that kind of work at all. If they had to do anything of the kind, however, he acknowledged that there was a saving of life by that method as compared with the loss of life that might be suffered under other methods.
The League of Nations can survive only if it is recognised by friends of the League all over the world that what we are attempting to do is to build up for the world a system of law and organisation similar to that which we have in all civilised nations. In this country in days gone by each nobleman had his own retainers and made his own laws. That is the sort of situation which exists in the world to-day. But those noblemen were finally subjugated and brought under a greater power, the power of the Crown. In the world to-day a great international court will have to come into being and we shall ultimately have to recognise, while retaining our passionate devotion to our own country, that the interests of the world are greater than the interests of any country. The relationship between the nations will have to be organised in the same way as our legal system in this country has been organised. The efforts of every friend of peace must be devoted to that end.
In the past the energies of scientists and inventors have been devoted to building great battleships and to perfecting the machinery of war. The same devotion, the same wealth, the same ability and the same energy must be put into the cause of peace to-day if we are to pull through the present crisis in the world's history. Because of that that I was, in a sense, glad to hear the pessimism poured out to the House by the right hon. and gallant Member for Burton. I would, on the other hand, beg of those who believe in the ideal of a world organised for peace not to despair but to devote themselves with still greater ardour, energy and devotion to the cause which at the present time so imperatively demands their support.
6.43 p.m.
Mr. WALLHEAD: The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken described the
628
speech of the right hon. and gallant Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) as pessimistic. What I do not like in this Debate, however, is the complacency of the speeches made on behalf of the Government. It must be apparent to every thinking person that the condition of the world to-day is vastly different from what it was even a few years ago. Internationally we seem to have passed into a different atmosphere, and I think it is right that we should have an opportunity such as is provided by this Motion, of attempting to discover what has brought about the change. Why is the atmosphere so different to-day from what it was two or three or four years ago? It is 15 years now since the end of the War, which we were told was a war to end war, which was to make the world safe for democracy and remove the burdens of militarism from the shoulders of the peoples. It was to lead to the use of the wealth expended on militarism for a more social purpose, for increasing the well-being of the whole of the people. Labour was to be made a participant in industry. No longer was it to be a mere commodity; it was to be a partner, and to take an honoured place in its control and direction.
But here we are, 15 years after that, and militarism is more in the ascendancy now than it has been in my time or in that of most of those who are present, excepting during the actual years of the War. Democracy is pretty well killed, with the exception of here and in one or two exceptional places on the Continent. The condition of the working class all over the world is infinitely worse than it has been. [Horn. MEMBERS "No."] What is the use of saying "No"? I come from a place where despair fills the minds of countless thousands, for whom no one can offer much hope. I am not blaming any Government for that. It is the outcome of economic causes which they cannot control. It is no use saying that the conditions are not bad, because they are. Never mind the technical question whether they are farthings per week worse off or better off; the mere fact that they are unemployed and in the state in which they are makes them worse off anyhow. That is what I want this House to remember; and the rest of the

629
world is in the same position. President Roosevelt is making an attempt over there to establish an improved order, but it does not look as if he is going to succeed. What are the things that are foiling us? How are they used? Who operates them? How do they work? Why should they foil the best intentions of men in the way they do? These are questions that we have a right to ask and that press upon us at a time like this.
Take the question with which we are more particularly concerned to-night, which is, after all, the question of peace. This is the one question that could be mentioned in this House upon which there would be absolutely universal agreement. We all agree that peace is universally desired. We all pay lip-service to the theory and the idea of peace, and we all say that we would go far and do much to establish peace. It is when we come to consider how peace is to be obtained that we begin to differ. It is the details that elude us and evade us, and surely it is a good thing that we should attempt to discuss these problems.
I want to refer to a speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain). He returned to London from Locarno on the 23rd October, 1925. He had achieved a great piece of work, but he will excuse me if I say that I voted against his proposition, because I thought it might be dangerous. I am not sure now that it will not be, unless we take the point of view that it does not mean anything at all. If we take the point of view that it means something, however, obviously the danger is greater now than was probably foreseen by the right hon. Gentleman when he had so much to do in bringing it into operation. At any rate, he had done a great piece of work. He had got into touch with the Germans in a way in which they had not been got into touch with before. The animosities engendered by the War had been broken down, and the right hon. Gentleman came back to this House and said that all the delegates were animated by the same determined will to pull Europe out of the rut of suspicion, hate, and fear in which she had lain those 10 years past. We have recently had the speeches of 26 peace experts, in which they tell us that
630
Europe is rattling to war at an alarming rate.
To revert to the peace work that the right hon. Gentleman did, he was highly honoured for it. His Majesty conferred a high honour upon him, and I hope he will excuse me for saying that that was probably not entirely due to his own personal qualifications, great though they had been, or to his personal achievement as Foreign Secretary, but was more probably an expression of the relief felt by the whole country that he had been able to get into touch with the Germans, to express to them the desire of this country to establish better relationships than had been existing in the past, and to wipe out some of the fears that oppressed them as well as their neighbours on the Continent. At any rate, it was a signal honour that was done him, and it did express something, I think, to which we were all glad to give expression. But now the right hon. Gentleman, speaking in this House on the 13th April last, said:
"I view the present situation with grave anxiety. I think that the position in Europe, the state of public opinion and the actions of Governments are more menacing to-day and threaten peace more directly than anything which we have known since the close of the Great War.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th April, 1933; col. 2756, Vol. 276.]
I submit that those are grave words, coming from the right hon. Gentleman. Considering the position that he has occupied in this House and the country, those are words which this House should listen to with gravity and should ponder with care.
Then there is the Lord President of the Council, who, speaking, I believe, at Birmingham in the first week of October about the peril of rearmament, said:
"If rearmament should begin, psychologically we should be back in 1914, with more knowledge than we had then, and I have never disguised my own view that another war in Europe would be the end of the civilisation we know."
That is gravity piled on gravity. Two foremost political leaders in this country, speaking with great authority, have made those pronouncements, and I cannot understand the complacency with which the general situation is viewed by some who speak in this House and in the country as well. The Lord President of the Council must know the mind and intention of the Government, and we have

631
a right to ask, Does he intend to disarm? That is to say, does he accept the rejection of war as a means of settling international disputes? We want a plain answer to that question, and I think we are entitled to it. Let us look at the situation a little more closely. We have had discussions here about the actions of the League of Nations lately. The League of Nations is not a Socialist device. It was the best thing that capitalist Governments could do arising out of the War of 1914–18. It is not a perfect instrument. I suppose that no one expected that it possibly could be. Bred in a world that was full of suspicions, rivalries, and jealousies, it was bound to be difficult to get into operation, and, therefore, every care should have been taken that, whenever it made decisions—and they were bound to be extremely rare, I think—those decisions should be acted upon as far as was humanly possible.
The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary rather resents his policy in the Far East being discussed or criticised. In my opinion, the Government's policy in the Far East has been of a disastrous character, and that to a large extent we can trace the beginnings of our difficulties in Europe to-day to the disastrous line which the Government took there in 1931. It is well known in this House and in the country generally that for years the great preoccupation of successive Conservative Governments has been Russia. Russia has been their bogy man. Both internationally and nationally they have feared Russia.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: With very good cause.
Mr. WALLHEAD: There you are. Put it there, only do not run away from the conclusions that are bound to be drawn. If hon. Members say: "With very good cause," that is their excuse for policies arising out of their suspicions. We have had a general improvement in our international relationships up to two years ago, but then a Conservative Government came into power with a huge majority. Am I not justified in assuming that Japan would begin to see that she would have a better chance in Manchuria than she had had in the previous two years? [HON. MEMBERS: "What would you have done?"] Hon. Members ran away from it. It is an undoubted fact that the Lytton Commission condemned Japan and
632
said that their policy was inimical to the Covenant, that they were wrong in every detail. There is no denying that, and in so far as this country was a party to the Covenant, we joined in that protest. The difficulty, of course, was this. The Foreign Secretary made no pretence about his view that Japan was acting illegally, but he excused her from the realistic point of view. He said that we had got to be realists, and that while legally Japan was right, technically Japan was not wrong. I say that the whole thing was a breach of the Covenant and was wrong from beginning to end.
You may say that it gave you an important ally in the Far Eastern provinces of Russia, that it helped to keep Russia in check on the Pacific. You are not saying it, but I say that you may say it, and I believe that if you did say that, it would find some support among the hon. Members who sit behind me on the Government Benches here. At any rate, that is my view. Japan took advantage of that position. She flouted the League, and we stood by and saw Articles 10 and 16 of the Covenant broken, because it is a breach of Articles 10 arid 16 of the Covenant not to stand by and enforce the decisions of the League when it pronounces judgment.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: Then does the hon. Member suggest that the League of Nations could have brought the Sanctions Clause of the Covenant into force?
Mr. WALLHEAD: I will speak for myself. That is all the hon. and gallant Member asks me, is it not? I say that Japan should have been checked by the immediate establishment of an economic boycott. I believe that economic boycotts can be made successfully, and although you may tell me that an economic boycott is a dangerous weapon, the situation is dangerous anyhow, and is becoming increasingly dangerous. The first result is that Japan leaves the League. Then what happens? Australia "gets the wind up" and the result has been, according to the "Morning Post" and the "Daily Herald" —which, on this issue at least, are in agreement—that Australia and New Zealand, after conference with Canada and the Imperial Defence Committee, have begun to strengthen their defences on the Japanese or northern side of Australia against

633
possible attack by Japan. I saw a notice the other day to the effect that part of the British Atlantic Fleet had been ordered to Australian waters for the purpose of strengthening defences there. So, you see, you do not escape danger; there is no escape from it. We think we are avoiding one danger, and we run into others. Indeed, it would appear as a lamentable fact that one result of the policy has been that Japan and America have now begun a gigantic race in armaments the effects of which none of us in this House can possibly foresee or foretell. It is because of that that I condemn the right hon. Gentleman's policy. I say that the Government could have stood by the League and assisted in carrying its decision out. I should not ask that this country should act by itself, but I say that it could have acted as a member of the League, acted with the League and supported the League all the time by all the means in its power, using every possible device to strengthen it and not to weaken it.
One of the results of the policy has been that Germany is now in the same position. Germany now thinks that if one member—Japan—can flout the League, she can flout the League. It is an undoubted fact that a dangerous situation is developing. We do not know in this House where we are going to see the end of it. The leader of my party only a day or two ago said that in no circumstances would we consent to re-armament. Nor will I; I am a pacifist.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: We have just become aware of it. The hon. Gentleman's speech was full of pacificism.
Mr. WALLHEAD: I hope that if I am presented with two evils I will take the least I possibly can. At any rate, in view of the philosophy that is now being preached in Germany by the leading supporters of the German Government, how on earth is it possible to expect that France will disarm? Even holding my views, I would hesitate to offer advice of that description. It is no use going into the reasons for French and German hostility. Most of us are conversant with the main points of the history of those two countries for the last 200 or 300 years; even if we do not know all the details, at least we know the main points of their antagonisms. The fact for us is
634
that these antagonisms exist and have to be dealt with. There was a point when people were right to believe and were expecting that they might have been assuaged, but the whole issue of the policy that has been pursued has begun to give colour and support to a philosophy which has been preached by the leading members of Chancellor Hitler's Government. A sorry state of affairs begins to develop so far as Europe is concerned.
Whether we succeed or fail, the policy enunciated in this Motion is the one which this Government should pursue. I know it will be difficult. I do not believe that we shall ever succeed out of capitalism itself. The antagonisms go deeper than that; the antagonisms are in the commercial system; they arise out of a constant competitive squabble for raw materials, dominance and power. I believe that the surest way is by the establishment of successive Socialist Governments. I believe that they might find a way where others have failed. Hon. Members may smile at that suggestion or may think it absurd or ridiculous, but, at any rate, what we Socialists can always smile at—if it is a matter for smiling—is that all preceding Governments have failed. At least we should like to have a chance, where they have failed, to succeed by our own economic system.
Nor do I believe that isolation is possible for us. Whether we like it or whether we do not, I do not see how we are going to carry it out. If we have not succeeded in the past—and there has never been a century from Julius Caesar's time to the present day in which we have not at some time or another been dragged into continental embroilments—if British statesmen failed in the past century under a vastly more localised system than the one we have to contend with, how should we hope to succeed where they failed? The one hope that remains to us is that we shall continue this work in which we are engaged. I would strengthen the hand of the Government by all means in my power. We are not here wholly condemning. All that we say is, "You are too slow; get on with the job; be more emphatic. If you are, you will have our help as far as we can give it—reserving all the time the right to put forward our specific Socialist theories with regard to the economic structure of modern society. "We should base our action

635
solely on that point of view, and I believe that we should stand a chance of succeeding where hitherto successive Governments have failed.
7.10 p.m.
Earl WINTERTON: In view of the last speech, it is necessary for me to address a question to the Labour party which I very much hope will be answered by the hon. and learned Gentleman who is going to wind up the Debate to-night. As I understand the attitude of that party as expressed by the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, supported by the loud cheers of his colleagues, it would have applied economic sanctions to Japan last year when the lamentable breakdown occurred in the relationship between Japan on the one hand and the League of Nations and the rest of the world on the other.
Mr. WALLHEAD: I spoke for myself.
Earl WINTERTON: Judging from the cheers which the hon. Gentleman received he spoke also for his party. Suppose that the result of putting into operation those economic sanctions had been—as they well might have been, and as every expert in the country will tell you that they would have been—that Japan had treated it as an act of war; would the hon. Member have advised this country and the other countries concerned to go to war with Japan? Would his party, the pacifist party, have supported the country in that war?
Mr. WALLHEAD: I said, "If the contingency arose."
Earl WINTERTON: I am perfectly willing that the hon. Gentleman should answer if he wishes to do so, but I thought that it would be better for his leader to answer.
Mr. WALLHEAD: I said that I should deal with that situation when the contingency arose. I said that we should be acting with the rest of the world supporting the League of Nations.
Earl WINTERTON: You cannot act in these things when the contingency arises; if you wish to be responsible statesmen you will have to say how you will act in such a grave situation. The right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) appeared to contemplate that a situation might arise in which Germany rearmed,
636
and in which it might be necessary on behalf of the League of Nations to move troops and aeroplanes against Germany, Does he really believe that that situation is going to arise, and does he really think that in the interests of peace and of the League it is desirable to refer to the matter? I can tell him one thing. He said, "In those circumstances, if Germany or a portion of Germany rearmed." Troops might have to he moved into Germany even if a section or all Germany opposed them. I am neither pro-Nazi, pro-German nor anti-German, but I have just been to Germany, and I can tell him that if those circumstances did arise he would have every man, woman and child in Germany against him. Does he really think that it is helping the cause of peace to refer to those contingencies, at this of all times? If that is really the view of the Liberal party, all I can say is that their public professions in the last few years have been very different.
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman another question. At the beginning of his speech he made one or two most tendentious references. Does he or any hon. Members of his party deny that this country—not under one Government alone, but under all, because I give the Labour Government, the Conservative Government, the Coalition Government, every Government the same praise in that respect; every Government that has been in power in this country since the War—has made a far greater contribution to effective disarmament by active disarmament than the Government of any other country in the world? Does he deny that? If not, what is the meaning of his wounding and injurious reference at the beginning of his speech to the paucity of the efforts made by this Government in the cause of disarmament, to its feebleness and lack of endeavour? I do not know whether that lack of endeavour, incidentally, dated from before or after the time that he left the Government, or whether this feebleness was shown during or after the period when he and his colleagues were in office.
Certainly, as far as the pursuit of peace and attempts at disarmament are concerned, no charge of lack of endeavour can be brought against this or any other Government. Relatively and absolutely, Great Britain is probably weaker to-day

637
than she has ever been at any time in her history. Compare the figures: look at the position in which we were in 1914 or at any other time. Can any hon. or right hon. Gentleman honestly rise in this House and bring that charge against any Government that has held office in this country: that it has not attempted to disarm by the most effective means? I would ask the right hon. Gentleman a further question. Does he or any Member of his party, or does any Member of the Opposition to-night, believe that the one scheme which has been put before the Disarmament Conference which is, or was at any time, likely to succeed, was not the Scheme put forward by His Majesty's Government? It is the only Scheme that has had a chance of success.
What is the need, then, for all this talk? What is the need for the tendentious speech—as I must describe it—of the right hon. Gentleman? I would say this, and I would lay it down as a challenge to the Opposition whether they are an open or a hidden Opposition: If you put this question to the people of the country, "Are you willing to support a policy of continued unilateral disarmament when other countries are not only not disarming, but are actually rearming," I have not the slightest doubt what the answer would be. It would be "No." Do not let anybody in this House who cares for peace, from whatever angle he approaches the matter, have any delusion on those grounds. I have not the slightest doubt that sooner or later hon. Gentleman opposite will form a Government: I hope that it will be later rather than sooner. When they do and they enunciate the doctrine—it will be the first time that any Government has enunciated such a doctrine in this country— "We are going to disarm entirely quite apart from any other circumstances, whatever other countries may do," they will not have the support of this country for a single day. I would remind them, and especially the Leader of the Opposition, that when the Labour Government were in power they laid down in the clearest possible language through the mouth of, I think, a Minister who is not at present in the House, that His Majesty's then Government did not support the policy of unilateral disarmament on the ground not only that it was a foolish and an unsafe policy, but that it could not lead to peace in the world.
638
I wonder what really becomes of the Motion which is put upon the Paper, because the latter part of it is really an argument for unilateral disarmament. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Certainly, unless you can persuade other nations to do the same. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) smiles. Does he really think, in the present state of Europe, that you are going to persuade them to do that?
Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: Yes.
Earl WINTERT0N: He thinks that France would agree to everything in the Motion?
Sir S. CRIPPS indicated assent.
Earl WINTERT0N: Compared with the hon. and learned Gentleman, Mark Tapley was a pessimist. I ask the indulgence of the House to submit a point which is not generally supported by the House or by public opinion. I think that the House and the Government are wrong in thinking that the Disarmament Conference, for reasons due to no one cause, certainly not to a particular nation, has not completely failed and wrong in thinking that it can ever succeed. In my opinion, great mischief was done at the time that Germany withdrew from the Conference on the 14th October by a suggestion in some quarters, some of which, at any rate, were connected with the Government, that by Germany's action and by what was obviously the breakdown of the Conference the cause of peace in Europe for the moment was completely destroyed. I do not believe that is so. I do not believe that by the action that Germany took or by what I believe to be the virtual breakdown of the Disarmament Conference everything is lost. I believe that it is still possible to get a workable agreement between European nations even though the Disarmament Conference is, as it is in fact, dead and buried.
Sir H. SAMUEL: Is it helpful to the peace of the world to say that?
Earl WINTERTON: If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to go on to my next sentence, he will see that there is another way by which the peace of the world can be secured. What is most unhelpful to the peace of the world is to suggest that the instrument which has obviously failed is the only instrument by

639
which you can attain your end. Great mischief has been done by the suggestion that, because a particular conference has for a moment failed, you can do nothing else. That is the mischief which is being caused, I say frankly, by more than one set of persons in this country. We ought carefully to distinguish between the general interests of peace and the personal interests of individual statesmen, however great, who have chosen to stake their reputations upon fallible instruments, as they have proved, for promoting that peace. If the danger of war can be averted by some means, who cares, provided they are honest and honourable means, what those means are? Why are we to be bound to a. particular method and a method which from the very first has been far too spectacular and connected with far too many extraneous matters that have nothing whatever to do with the cause which every quarter of the House has most deeply at heart—that is, the cause of peace?
There is no doubt that the pre-requisite to any moral or physical disarmament in Europe is good will and understanding between France and Germany. That is the point of the whole situation. Everyone talks round the subject, they refer to disarmament and questions of arms—tanks, machine guns, cruisers, whatever they may be—but the central situation which can be seen by anybody who has travelled in Europe recently or has read the history of Europe since the War, the central focal point is the feeling at the moment between France and Germany. What is the situation? Everybody is aware how France knows and fears that Germany wants equality in status and everything else in order to secure certain revisions of the Treaty of Versailles. France knows that Germany is as determined to get those revisions somehow, some day, in some way as only a people united on a single issue can be determined. That is the situation. Why not face it?
How are we to deal with the situation? What is the use of trying to meet a situation like that by ingenious mechanistic plans, devised in Geneva by, perhaps, the representatives of Haiti or Abyssinia. It is true that great virile nations like France and Germany do not really do business in that way, and, since peace
640
in Europe primarily depends upon an understanding between these two people, and peace is a desperate need for Europe, we ought not to relax our efforts to see if in some way by some means this terrible generations-old misunderstanding cannot be cleared up. The whole situation is based upon the attitude of France and Germany the one to the other.
Is such an understanding impossible? I should not have thought it was. I should have thought that in Herr Hitler's broadcast, even after the withdrawal of Germany from the Conference, there was a hope of such an understanding. I should have thought that in the recent speeches of the Prime Minister of France there was hope of such an understanding. I believe that it would be possible with our help and good will and with the help and good will of Italy, which is certainly forthcoming in such a matter; and, if it were offered, with the help and good will of Russia, which has been drawn very much into the picture lately by her obvious understanding with France. I know that someone may say that to do this is to ignore the interests of small nations. They will ask, "What is to happen to the Little Entente and to Poland if you do that? They may be left out in the cold." They may say that it will also ignore the whole elaborate postwar machinery, so vast and, I much fear, so painfully ineffective, that we have built up in order to try and bring about peace. None of these things matter compared with the vast importance of getting an understanding between France and Germany because everything depends upon that.
I would like to say this to the Government even at the risk of receiving laughter from the Opposition. I think that the position into which this situation is leading the Government is an exceedingly dangerous one electorally. I foresee two more years of endless discussion through the semi-moribund Disarmament Conference—nothing done and the situation getting gradually worse. On the one hand, the Government will be attacked at the next election by those who may without offence be called patriots, who will say, "All this time while you have been talking other nations have been rearming"; on the other hand, they will be fiercely attacked by those who call themselves

641
pacifists, who will say, "As a result of your being in office things are worse than they were." Everyone who knows the situation realises that no one Government can really affect the situation, but those will be the charges brought. Is is not time to turn over a new leaf and to see whether it is possible to bring about what we all desire by some other means?
Finally, I must say this, if the House will again give me its indulgence for taking an unpopular view. I cannot see what good is being done by the support which the House gives to moral exordiums from different parts of it addressed sometimes to one country and sometimes to another. At one time it is to Japan to whom moral exordiums are addressed, supported by those respectful cheers which always show the House to be at one. Another time it is to Italy, another time to Russia, and another time to France for her huge army; at another time it is to Germany because of her internal policy and her treatment, which all of us deplore, of certain races and communities. Is that the way to bring about peace? We are far removed from the days of Exeter Hall and Mr. Gladstone. It is true that in the days of Exeter Hall and Mr. Gladstone these admonitions by the House of Commons or by public opinion here to Europe and the world were listened to with respect; but, if I may be cynical, they were listened to with respect because in the background even Mr. Gladstone could beckon to the British Navy if he wanted to do so, and in the last resort we could say it with guns.
Is public opinion to-day prepared to back up their attitude towards these foreign countries and say to them, "If you carry on as you do we will treat it as a hostile act towards us"? We know that we cannot. We cannot be pacifists and jingoes at the same time. In the interests of peace we cannot allow ourselves the moral virtue of criticising the policy of every other country. I have yet to see what has happened since the War that would lead an unbiased and impartial person to suppose that the present methods of conducting negotiations between countries are more fortunate than the old-fashioned methods, even though they were referred to by the name of "secret diplomacy," when it was carried on by men who were trained and paid for the purpose. I do not believe
642
that those spectacular aeroplane flights about Europe, those journeys by elder statesmen from one capital to another can really effect what everyone wants to see effected. I believe that we still have in this country and in most of the European countries as excellent a diplomatic service as ever we had. Would it not be as well to allow the men who are there for the purpose to conduct at least some of those negotiations which are being carried on? You talk of open diplomacy. Has open diplomacy in 15 years made Europe more peaceful than it was before the War? I see no signs of it.
Mr. MABANE: What about the last War?
Earl WINTERTON: I will answer the hon. Gentleman in this way. For many years before the War, through the seventies, eighties and nineties and in the early nineteen hundreds this country was often in imminent danger of being involved in a European war. That danger was always averted by two things. One, I believe, was the existence of a supreme Navy, and the other was the existence in this country of the best trained diplomatic corps that the world has ever seen. At any rate, I am not concerned with that. I am concerned with this aspect, that in 15 years of so-called open diplomacy there has been more ill-feeling between the nations of the world than at any other time. I am not suggesting that the League of Nation's should be abolished, far from it, but I am suggesting that these spectacular conferences are not really effecting their purpose 'at the present time. Therefore, my cure for this terrible situation is to try to see whether we cannot have a working arrangement between the European nations that really count, and whether we cannot approach that working arrangement by a method that at least would not prove to be, shall I say, mare infructuous than those adopted during the last 15 years?
7.31 p.m.
Mr. BERNAYS: The Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) is always consistent in his speeches in this respect, that he is invariably offensive to Liberals. I gather that he was complaining that my right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) had made a speech this afternoon which was

643
not helpful to the cause of peace. If I heard the Noble Lord aright, this was one sentence that came from him: "The Disarmament Conference has failed." I put this question, and I think it is a fair one, to the Noble Lord: "Is it helpful to say that a Conference has failed when it is still in being?"
Earl WINTERTON: I am sorry to interrupt, but, as the hon. Member puts that question to me, I say that I think it is better to recognise failure as failure when it clearly is failure.
Mr. BERNAYS: Such a statement is surely not helpful in turning that Conference into a success. He also complained that my right hon. Friend had discussed the possibility of what this country should do in the case of German re-armament. What is the Noble Lord himself going to do in the case of German re-armament. Is he going to sit back and allow Germany to return to precisely the same position in which she was in 1914? If so, I think he has very few friends in support of that policy in this House. He complained that open diplomacy was responsible for our present situation. What has secret diplomacy attained? He says we were spared war owing in the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century owing to our having better diplomats than at any time in our history, and that we then had a stronger navy than ever before. I would remind him that we have probably never had better diplomats than we had in 1914, and that the British Navy was at that time stronger than it had ever been.
Mr. McG0VERN: So was the Liberal party.
Mr. BERNAYS: Grave criticisms can obviously be made of the Government policy in the handling of the Disarmament Conference, but I think it is only fair to say that those criticisms can be made of any Government which has been in power since the War. In failing to follow Germany in disarmament we have broken, if not the legal obligations of the Treaty of Versailles, at any rate the spirit of the Clemenceau letter. Successive British Prime Ministers, in failing to stand up to France, have been responsible to some extent for the growth of the Nazi movement, a movement which has
644
now reached the terrifying total of 92 percent, of the electorate. I say "terrifying" when one remembers the methods of barbarism which have been in operation to produce it. But the Labour party, who moved this Vote of Censure, cannot really escape responsibility for what has happened. After all, they themselves have been in power. They were in power—in office—in 1924, and the situation then had never looked more hopeful. Dr. Stresemann was Chancellor in Germany; M. Herriot was Prime Minister in France; Chancellor Hitler was, I think, in gaol. The international situation had never looked more hopeful. What was the gesture towards disarmament of the Labour Government? To build five new cruisers. They cannot say that the Liberals made them do it, because the Liberals voted against them and they relied for support in the Division Lobby upon the Conservative party. Practically every Member of the Opposition Front Bench now censuring the Government voted in that Lobby. They are censuring the Government to-day for failing to do something which, when they were in office themselves, under far more favourable circumstances, they made no attempt to achieve. I see my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition there. He voted for those five cruisers. The record of the right hon. Gentleman in the matter of disarmament is really most remarkable. I have here an interview he gave to the "Star" newspaper on 23rd October last:
"I would like to see the workers of every country refuse to make the foul weapons of modern warfare, and risk starving rather than lend a finger to this devil's work."
I have been trying to make some arithmetical calculations as to the amount of this devil's work for which the right hon. Gentleman himself has been responsible. He voted for the five cruisers. He has supported in the Division Lobby, when his party have been in office, three lots of Service Estimates of about £115,000,000 each. At a rough computation he has voted for about £450,000,000 worth of devil's work, yet he is now asking the workers not to lend a finger to it. He even goes further, and asks them to starve for an ideal for which he himself would not even risk resignation. On the subject of the record of the Labour party on disarmament I find it difficult to keep myself within the limits of Parliamentary order in describing it. So far as their

645
record of the past is concerned, I can only describe it in the words of Mr. Disraeli: their record on disarmament is an organised hypocrisy; and I think we should get a little further in disarmament if they said more often in office what they say in opposition. I find very little to quarrel with in the Motion on the Paper as a programme of peace. I even support, and here I speak only for myself, the ultimate ideal of an international police force, for I cannot see that there can be any hope of permanent peace until we establish among all countries the same kind of reign of law as is established in each individual nation; but, obviously, those are plans for the future.
We have to examine Germany as she is at this moment, and the world as it is. In a speech that I ventured to make before the Recess I tried to point out some danger spots in the German situation. When I made a return visit a month ago I found those impressions heightened and confirmed. The right hon. Member for Carnavon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has been providing—I am sure to his own dismay—the Nazi movement with a very valuable election poster on breaches of the Treaty by the Allies. In Germany to-day, walking down Unter den Linden, one can play an amusing game by trying to see how many breaches of the Treaty by Germany one can see in a few minutes. First of all I saw a change in the uniforms of the Brown-Shirts. They now have green, red, black and yellow tabs. I asked what these meant, and was told that the Nazi forces are now regionally organised like the old conscript army. So that the legend, thin from the start, that these Brown-Shirts were merely an auxiliary police force has collapsed. Then there were the blue uniforms of the Air Force, an entirely new feature, the result of the extraordinary air raid over Berlin when nobody saw aeroplanes except Government officials and no one saw the leaflets they are supposed to have dropped. The attitude towards France at this moment is provocative in the extreme. In Nuremberg I saw the Chancellor receive a banner emblazoned "Strasburg" from a section of the Brown-Shirts. How should we feel if the Spanish Government received a banner emblazoned "Gibraltar," or Signor Mussolini started receiving deputations about Malta?
Earl WINTERTON: They do.
Mr. BERNAYS: I fully agree with the Noble Lord when he says we ought to do our utmost to take Chancellor Hitler at his word. He drew attention to the speech made by him yesterday, but side by side with that speech we must, as realists, take the speech of General Goering who, after all, is Prime Minister of Prussia, in which he told the German people to thank the Lord—why they should particularly thank him I do not know—that Germany had now re-established an army which had made the world shudder. It is argued by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs that Germany is not dangerous because all the surrounding States have powerful guns and potent weapons of destruction. I am just old enough to remember the same sort of argument used at the beginning of the War. It was said the forts of Liege would hold out for months, but the Germans brought up their big siege guns—we had never heard of them—and in a few hours Liége had collapsed. The German Army swung west to Namur and again the experts said: "Namur is impregnable." It fell in 49 hours. There are inventions in the direction of poison gas that make the most powerful fortifications in the world just scraps of paper. That is why I find it difficult to understand the speeches of my distinguished colleague in the representation of Bristol when he advocates the calling of a general strike in the event of war. Is he not thinking of the last war? What is the good of calling a general strike when there are 100 bombing aeroplanes over Bristol? What is the good of declaring yourself a conscientious objector when you see the hideous, yellow poison gas creeping up the Severn?
We have to ask ourselves what should he done. An hon. Member says: "What is the good of anything?" I am only trying to put forward what I think may be of use. First of all, it seems to be vital to get Germany back to the council chamber. It cannot be done by vague gestures or half-hearted surrenders. The Nazis must be made to realise that they cannot get what they want by force. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will be able to repeat the pledge that he made on a former occasion to Austria. The key to the situation is in Vienna. There is the weakest link in the chain, and Germany has been trying to break it. We should give a further pledge to Chancellor Dollfuss that, through the League of

647
Nations, we shall give him our utmost support in his gallant defence against the bluster of Berlin.
Secondly, it is very important to establish machinery for the revision of the Treaty of Versailles. Disarmament itself is not enough. For peace, surely it is necessary to disarm hearts as well as hands, but that will never be done so long as some of the more glaring grievances of the Versailles Treaty remain unredressed. You have only to make a cursory examination of Europe to see that the problem of minorities is a perpetually running sore. I have seen charabanc loads taken up from Breslau over the Polish frontier to have their nationality inflamed. One hears stories of farmers whose duck pond is in Poland and whose ducks are in Germany, and whenever those ducks go across the frontier they are arrested by the Polish gendarmerie. There are stories of brothers separated from each other by, perhaps, five minutes walk, who, in order to visit one another have to go 20 miles to get a visa and then 30 miles more to find a policed road. I do not believe, with the Opposition, that war is a capitalist conspiracy. I think that it far more often occurs because the passions of men have been roused by this kind of indignity and injustice. You see how the frontier is taken right through an industrial district of Germany and day after day and month after month German boys see in the distance in Poland the spectacle of the smoking chimneys of a town that once belonged to Germany. You hear the same sort of story in Bulgaria and in Hungary. When you visit these minorities in Bukarest and Danzig, immediately you suggest revision they say, "Put the frontier five miles back, and that means war." I suggest that this attitude cannot be allowed to continue, and that this Government should propose a real measure of immediate disarmament.
The Foreign Secretary says that he hates the probationary period; that he hates the word "probation." Cannot we get rid of the idea? Cannot we propose, here and now, an immediate measure of disarmament? We can do so with perfect safety. Why cannot we agree to abolish all offensive weapons? We can
648
do so with perfect safety, and it will be a fair and reasonable step. Chancellor Hitler talks peace; let us give him the fullest possible chance for ensuing it. If not, and if Germany is determined to rearm, then there is no alternative but the collective front and joint action by economic blockade. Is that or is it not the policy of the Government? With all that sincerity that is in me, I hope that it is. May I suggest that if that is the policy of the Government, it is not unreasonable to ask that we should have more driving force behind it. Is it too much to ask that, for the rest of the Disarmament Conference, there shall be, in continuous presence at the sessions at Geneva, a Cabinet Minister?
I wish too, that there was some evidence that the Government were all of one mind on this question. Reference has been made to a speech by the President of the Board of Trade. That speech was preceded at the Cutler's Feast by an examination, by the First Sea Lord of the Admiralty, of the dangers in which the Navy were. No doubt he spoke with very great authority. I suggest with all respect that the First Sea Lord is a servant of the Government, and that he has no right to make a speech in public which, whether he means it or not, is bound to give further ammunition to the big-Navy school.
Rear-Admiral SUETER: I think you will find that he had permission to make that speech.
Mr. BERNAYS: It is all the worse. Then there is the speech of the Financial Secretary to the War Office. Speaking in Bournemouth on 7th November he said:
"I do not believe that, armaments are the pause of war."
in direct contradiction to the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council who said, at Birmingham, that once rearmament began in Europe, the danger of war would become very clear. Then there was the Secretary of State for Air who said that we must do our best to influence people in every part of the world so that war shall be postponed as long as possible. What should we have thought of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs had he said in the height of the War, in a

649
message to the nation, that we must do our best to see that defeat is postponed as long as possible. I do not quote these speeches in any sense to create a party atmosphere, but there is a tremendous anxiety in all parties in this country that the whole force of the Government should be behind their disarmament policy, and it does suggest to minds not unfavourable to the Government that there is a lack of sincerity in some of its Members on this all important question.
This question of peace and war makes some of our domestic controversies appear very small. As I sit here listening to our wrangles on great questions of the day like unemployment insurance, State control of industry, tariffs and now, apparently, the great question that is agitating the electors, to judge by our post bags, the protection of wild birds, I sometimes wonder what is the use of it all, unless we scotch the peril of war. I suppose that most of us in this Parliament will carry away, as their most vivid memory, the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council, in which he spoke of the next war. He told us, in an atmosphere more macabre than I have ever experienced in this House—that there were inventions in the last war so horrible that nations fighting for their lives shrank from using them. To concern ourselves with purely domestic matters while this overshadowing question is in the balance, is as futile as if the crew of the "Titanic" had spent their last moments on earth decorating the grand saloon when the ship was sinking.
7.54 p.m.
Colonel WEDGWOOD: If I believed, with the last speaker, that it is possible to secure a change of spirit in Germany by revision of the Peace Treaties, and if I felt that we could bring France, the Little Entente and the other nations to agree to modifications of the Treaties, so that the Danzig Corridor, Silesia and various frontier questions were righted, I should heartily support him and the excellent speech which he has delivered, but surely we all know that, make what concessions you like to the Nazis in Germany, you will not change the spirit that rules in Germany to-day. There you have a party who have seized power, and who can only retain power by perpetuating
650
the idea of a grievance among the German people. Their policy demands that this grievance shall be continued. I do not care what revision you make of the Versailles Peace Treaty, you will not stop the rearmament of Germany, or the threat that the rearmed Germany will hold over the whole of civilisation.
The danger that we are in to-day is the belief that we are still dealing with the sort of world with which we were dealing for 14 years after the Armistice. Now you have a very different position. You have that nation which has always shown itself the most powerful in war, determined to rearm itself, and to prove to a world which certainly does not like it that, if it cannot be loved, it must at least be feared. That is a new fact, which is illustrated by the determination of those people to rearm Germany. I do not know what excuse they gave for leaving the Disarmament Conference or the League of Nations, but I am certain of their determination to rearm Germany, and no invitation to them to come back into the League of Nations or the Disarmament Conference will have the slightest attention in Germany, if it is intended to curtail the power of rearming Germany. That is one fact that we must appreciate.
The second fact is that you cannot stop them. No international control, no inspection and no threats of the League of Nations will stop Germany rearming now; in fact, they are rearming. All they need is the machinery of warfare—the aeroplanes, the great guns and the tanks. The only obstacle in getting these things is not lack of enthusiasm, or lack of men or of intention, but lack of money, and the fear that, before they have them, Europe may step in. Everybody in this country realises that to-day. Everybody realises that although, for 15 years, ever since the War, we have been talking about the dangers of war, for the first time there is a real danger-spot for the people of England. That is why East Fulham went over—fear of another war. That is why the country will go over, and quite rightly.
Cato—I think it was the elder Cato—used to end up all his speeches, "Delenda est Carthago," an excellent motto, and he finally carried it out. I do not say that I want to destroy Germany, but it seems to me that the most urgent duty

651
of all who love civilisation is to put an end to the sort of spirit that is ruling in Germany to-day. There you have a complete negation of justice. There you have the spirit of the Middle Ages impinging upon, and threatening, the twentieth century. We were in danger, although perhaps we did not all know it, in 1914; we are in infinitely greater danger to-day, partly because our inviolable frontier and barrier of the sea has vanished. We are in infinitely greater danger because, while to be under the Kaiser's heel would not be pleasant, to be under this awful Frankenstein in Germany would be infinitely more terrible to every civilised race on earth. Therefore, the danger is greater to-day, both because the frontiers have gone and because the results of the next war, even if we are not all exterminated, will be far more fearful. That is only to say that really we need not waste our time now in talking about disarmament; what we have to concentrate our attention on is seeing that we know exactly what this Government must do.
The Government must make up its mind when and at what point it is going to put down its foot. They are absorbing Danzig now. We shall not fight about that. They are absorbing the Polish Corridor to-morrow; they are absorbing Austria later on. Where do we stand now? Where does the League of Nations, where does the collective civilisation of the world step in and say, "No further"? I do not think it is necessary for the Government to tell it to the public, but the people who are interested, the people upon whom we must count to help us if the worst comes to the worst, are the people who ought to know. Some people think we should not have had the War in 1914 if France had known beforehand with certainty, and, above all, if Germany had known, beforehand with certainty, that we should fight. Let us avoid that difficulty next time by knowing clearly beforehand how far we can allow Germany to exercise force and change the treaties, and how far they must not go. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not a yard."] I agree, but we must not ask too much from the Government. What we want to know is when the Government will say to the French Government, and to the Italian
652
Government, and to the League of Nations, "We will back you on this if we will not back you on that." Foresight is what is wanted. Goodness knows, I am not a war-monger; I have seen too much of it; but there are certain things for which it is legitimate to fight. I do not mean King or country, but when it is a question of fighting for justice and the right I think we have to remind my hon. Friends on these benches that there was a certain man called Patrick Henry, who once said:
"Is life so sweet, or peace so dear, as to be purchased at the price of chains of slavery? I know not what course this may take, but, as for me, give me liberty or give me death."
I think there is, at the long last, a justification for the use of force, and I would far sooner be using that force in the interests of humanity, to stop this horrible thing that is going on in Europe, than for purely nationalistic ideals. That is not all. For the last 15 years the defences of the country have not seemed really important to any of us. We have had Debates on every Estimate that has come up, but we felt that the country was perfectly safe, that there was no risk of war, that it did not really matter. Now it does matter; now we have to realise the danger ahead of us.
I heard the other day that one of the questions that were exercising the great brains in our Admiralty was the question of a possible war with the United States of America. They were complaining that the United States of America were building big battleships, and were saying that the only reason why they were building battleships, costing £4,500,000, was that America had them. Where you have a real danger, for goodness sake scrap from your plans all the imaginary dangers. Nobody but a pernicious lunatic could imagine that we should ever go to war with America. There are three reasons why it is not possible. One is that it would break up the Empire, because the Dominions would not take sides; the second is that we should not fight; and the third is quite conclusive, namely, that we should be beaten if we did, and England never set her foot on a rotten bridge. That, therefore, is out of the question. I do not think we are going to fight Japan, in spite of the right hon. Gentleman. There, again, I would give the warning that Japan is too tough

653
a customer for Great Britain to take on 5,000 or 6,000 miles away. Therefore, you can rule out Japan, and scrap the Singapore Docks. There is one real danger; guard against that.
It may be observed that, whatever else the Germans do, they will not build a navy; it costs too much. Therefore, as we have not to consider a German navy, and really need not bother about the Japanese and American navies, we might reduce our Naval Estimates and apply the money where it would be more useful. The great difficulty in dealing with these Services, all three of them, is that they are so conservative—not national, like the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council, but sheerly conservative. They regard the country as existing for the benefit of the Services, not the Services as existing for the benefit of the country, and the result is that you have these old-fashioned methods continuing for ever. Think what a struggle we had in the War to get tanks, to get shrapnel helmets, to get any of the mechanical improvements of warfare, and think how during that War we maintained for the whole time 40,000 cavalry behind the lines eating their heads off—cavalry which could not be used against barbed wire; and observe that we are still keeping cavalry regiments going to-day. The Services have got to have a firm reforming hand upon them. Since the time of Haldane we have not had at the War Office anybody who has sought to impose his own will upon that Service. Ministers, both at the War Office and at the Admiralty, have more and more become merely the mouthpieces of the Service. They are advocates with the Treasury, they are advocates with the Cabinet. Since the time of Winston Churchill when he was at the Admiralty there has not been a soul who has dared to contradict an admiral.
Mr. McGOVERN: Nobody bothered about them.
Colonel WEDGWOOD: Nobody bothered about them, but now it is getting a bit too dangerous. Could we not now, through the Committee of Imperial Defence, provide some sort of reorganisation? Think of these bigs ships, costing £4,500,000, crawling slowly across the ocean, with the chance of being destroyed at any moment by some great gun, such
654
as the Germans had in Belgium, 100 miles away, or of being destroyed in five seconds by an aeroplane bomb. What is the use of pinning your faith to these things when at Jutland, during the War—when they did not cost anything like so much as they do now—the Admiral thought fit to withdraw the British Fleet in the face of the enemy lest they should lose one of these——
Viscount WOLMER: Nobody did that.
Colonel WEDGWOOD: Nobody thinks that a ship costing £4,500,000——
Viscount WOLMER: That account of the Battle of Jutland is not strictly accurate.
Colonel WEDGWOOD: There are two accounts of the Battle of Jutland, Lord Jellicoe's and Lord Beatty's, and I think Lord Beatty was right. If I were in charge of expensive eggs like that, I should clear them out of the risks of warfare. But that is one of the things which have to be considered. In the light of the new danger to this country, we have to see that our Fleet, if it can be of any use at all, shall be used to good purpose, and we have to see that a proper allocation is made in cash as between the Fleet and the new Air Service. Just as the last War was a complete revolution as compared with the one that preceded it, so the next will be a revolution as compared with the last. The last War invented barbed wire and the tank; the next war will be a war in the air and a war underground. If you leave it to the War Office and the Admiralty without any strong hand from above, without any direction, without any shaking up, you will start the next war worse situated than you were when you started the last. We have to have in your politicians the knowledge of where we are going to put our foot down, and how we can best stop a war coining upon us; and we have to ask from the Services a better plan of campaign than they slowed last time, and more sacrifice of the interests of the Services in the interests of the safety of the country as a whole.
The Prime Minister, apparently, does not approve of this Motion being put on the Paper. I think that the actual Motion which has been put down is admirable. I do not see why the Prime Minister should complain of the inter-

655
national police force. He used to be a great advocate of what was called the Protocol de Genève, which was exactly the same. Personally, I did not like the Protocol de Genève, and, personally, I do not like the international police force, but I am coming round to it. I voted against Locarno—there were only 13 of us who did so—but, once having got that as a treaty registered between us and the French, I would no more dream of dishonouring it than I would cancel my debt to America. And when we come to consider the impossibility of an international police force, we have to remember that in the past mercenaries have always been loyal to their salt, in fact, more loyal and more trustworthy than national armies, and I can recommend strongly to those people whose minds will still look forward to the distant future, when we can have a certain amount of real safety from the German menace, to the time when we may have a League of Nations able to act, that the Swiss in olden days were the best mercenaries that ever existed. I cannot think the Nationalist difficulty is really an obstacle in the way of an international police force, as the Prime Minister made out. All these questions of what we should put before Europe as a possible means of disarming Europe and destroying the fears under which we live to-day are out of place in this new world where we have a real, tangible, ever-present danger before us. What I am afraid of is that the Government will go on trusting to a Disarmament Conference instead of thinking themselves what they must do if a crisis should come upon us.
8.16 p.m.
Brigadier-General SPEARS: Although I cannot support this Motion, I am most grateful to the Opposition for having put it down, for it gives an opportunity to humble back benchers like myself to express their views on this all-important question of Disarmament. I remember reading some time ago an excellent book on Japan called "The Honourable Picnic." I felt, as I listened to the Debate on Tuesday, that I was assisting at something infinitely more august, that is, a right honourable picnic. Indeed, the only opportunity that back benchers had of Addressing the House was during that hour when every self-respecting right hon. Gentleman was having his dinner. It is
656
not always remembered on the Treasury Bench, which after all decides upon the time that is allocated to any Debate, that the most insignificant of us back benchers represents exactly as many electors as the Prime Minister himself, and, strange as the idea may seem, that there are actually some back benchers who may have something to contribute to these Debates. As I sat through the Debate on Tuesday, tealess and dinnerless, the speech I enjoyed most was one made by a back bencher, if I dare claim as one of us, the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Sir R. Banks), although I suspect him of having his foot on the steps of the Throne, so to speak. Although I disagreed with every word that he said, I felt the immense value there was in hearing a point of view in opposition to your own clearly expressed.
In discussing this Motion, one is naturally influenced by last week's Debate, and one of the outstanding speeches was that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). It was a little difficult, as one listened to him, to remember that he is the only survivor of the powerful triumvirate which was mainly responsible for the Treaty of Versailles. It seemed to me that he omitted the one real explanation why the Treaty that he complained of so bitterly has riot given the results that he said he expected from it. The fact simply is that, when the Allies promised Germany that they would eventually disarm, France agreed to that proposition because she felt secure in the guarantee that had been given her by England and by the United States that they would stand by her in case she were attacked. That guarantee never materialised, thanks to a clever clause inserted by the right hon. Gentleman that it would only operate if it were ratified by the United States. The sense of security that made France envisage with calm the idea of disarmament in the future disappeared. It was clever of the right hon. Gentleman to insert that clause, too clever perhaps, but it ill behoves him to-day to rail against a nation which was robbed of the security which it had been guaranteed. The clue to the whole problem is the question of the relationship between France and Germany. The whole of the Peace Treaty was built up on the foundation of the guarantee that we and the United States

657
gave to France. When that guarantee was withdrawn the whole edifice of the Peace Treaty cracked, and we have been attempting ever since to find some means of giving the security which was then withdrawn.
Turning to another point; thanks to the speech of the Foreign Secretary on Tuesday we can debate this Motion with full knowledge of the facts which have led up to the present situation. We listened to his admirable speech with rapt attention. He told us at great length how disarmed we were. But it is quite obvious that our disarmament has not given any nation a sense of security. In a few words that is the story of our disarmament, and it seems to me that it is not a very successful story. What the right hon. Gentleman had to say about Locarno I thought was more distressing still. The whole burden of his argument was, "We have signed it. Of course, we will honour our signature, but it is we who will interpret the Treaty. It is for us to judge whether we are called upon to take any action or not." The whole implication is that we are completely free. We are both judges and parties in the dispute. No one will know until the very last moment what our action will be. How can anybody consider an instrument of that kind as anything upon which you can build peace? The whole effect of what the right hon. Gentleman said on this subject must certainly be to weaken the sense of security in Europe. I have not read all the papers which have been published, although I have read a good many, but I certainly think that what I have just said is justified by the facts. The greatest impetus to re-armament in Europe to-day is ignorance on the part of other nations of what part we are to Play.
We should look upon this great question of peace and Disarmament as a business proposition. Is it good business on our part to prevent war in Europe, or is it not? The answer of the overwhelming number of our fellow citizens would be in the affirmative. But if it is good business, how much is it worth our staking to maintain peace? Is it worth while our taking out an insurance against war? If so, what premium are we prepared to pay? I gathered from what the Prime Minister said that we are not prepared to pay much. I was very sorry indeed when I heard him say that. If we refuse to pay
658
a premium for peace and if we refuse to assume any responsibility for maintaining it, what will happen France and Germany's other neighbours, faced by a Germany which is arming, will, in the first place, forthwith strengthen their military alliances among themselves. That is an extremely important point.
We have heard a great deal about Germany. We have heard much less about France, and nothing about the Little Entente. After all the Little Entente, which really came into diplomatic being thanks to the Four-Power Pact, is now a solid block of 70,000,000 people. That is something. I am sure that the House would be interested to know their point of view, and their point of view, as far as I can make out, is that of France itself. In the first place, they will bind themselves together more closely, and the next thing is that they will begin to increase their armaments. France will certainly begin to increase her armaments in order to keep the advantage she now has over Germany. There is no doubt about that at all. One thing of which I am certain, after very careful inquiry, is that even the most Socialistically inclined people in France will vote any sum for which the Government may ask of them for arms. There is no doubt about it. To ask people who are so minded to place themselves on a footing of absolute equality with Germany, which has twice invaded them, without giving them a guarantee that they will receive support if they are attacked, seems to them to be the wildest folly.
If we stand aside, I feel certain that the armaments race will begin, and it will begin soon. We have very little time to lose. To some extent it has begun, and if we go on wavering as we have been doing, and it becomes clear that we are not going to make up our minds, the Continental nations will be compelled to adopt a course of their own, and it is exactly the one I have outlined. Once the armaments race has begun we certainly shall be unable to influence the course of events.
The race in armaments will not mean immediate war. I know that the French nation would not go to war to-day. What will happen is that the burden of armaments will become ever more crushing, and there are those in that country, the nationalists, for instance, who will come

659
along and say: "Why go on like this? Why go on postponing the inevitable? Germany is re-arming. Attack her while we still have some advantage." That will mean war. I have ventured to draw the attention of the House to one dangerous result of our attitude. I notice in the papers the very significant change in the attitude of Italy. If there is one thing more certain than another it is that if this country gave a strong lead Italy would follow. She always has done so. The prestige of the League of Nations is being undermined. The Prime Minister spoke words of comfort. I hope that they will be given tangible form, but it is no use beating about the bush. It strikes me that the only friends the League has had have been the small nations, the Little Entente, and France.
Let us, if we want peace, decide to pay the premium necessary to ensure it. That premium is to undertake to stand by any nation that it attacked, that is, to give practical interpretation to Article 10 of the Covenant. If we do that, there will be no war, because there will be no attack. England seen from the Continent is like a lump of ballast. If you put it on the scales on one side, down go the scales on that side, and nothing you can do on the other side will make it go up. If a country is made aware that in case of conflict it must add to its potential enemies the enormous forces of this country it will know that the opposition is too much for it and that it cannot take it on. That was true of an all-powerful Germany in 1914. If she had known that we were on the other side she would not have taken it on. That is as true to-day as in 1914. If it is known beforehand that we will come down with all our strength on the side of the attacked nation, there will be no attack. If, on the other hand, we act as we did in 1914, the events of 1914 will be repeated, and this time; there will be no excuse.
8.36 p.m.
Mr. EMRYS-EVANS: The Motion refers to
"the growing opinion in favour of the total disarmament of all nations throughout the world."
Is that a true statement of the position? Is it really true that there is that feeling throughout the world. I do not think that the cause of peace will be served by hiding from ourselves unpleasant and
660
inconvenient facts. The most unpleasant and inconvenient fact with which we are faced at the present time is the coming into power of the Nazi regime in Germany. It is not only the action that they have taken inside Germany itself—which is an internal question, which must nevertheless affect the world—but it is their attitude towards their neighbour, towards Austria, which has caused fears and anxieties to arise such as we have not known since the War. She has proved herself during this period not to be a good neighbour. Germany is speaking to-day with two voices, the voice of peace and the voice of the drill sergeant. It was so in the days before the War.
The German Imperial Government protested on many occasions their devotion to peace. The world believed them, because the world wanted to believe that those protestations were sincere, but at the same time Germany was pressing forward with preparations for war. All the Governments of the world were also making preparations for war. There was an armaments race and alongside that armaments race there was that spirit in Germany which believed that only along the paths of military glory lay the future of Germany. That spirit disappeared for a time but it has come again and there can be no doubt that it has gained a very strong hold on the whole of the German nation. It is true that to-day the position is very different from that which existed in 1914. At that time the German Imperial Government were in command of the greatest military machine the world has ever known. To-day, even if Germany is rearming—and the arrest of Mr. Panter shows that she has much to conceal—I do not believe that there is any immediate prospect of a conflict. There is still time, but there is a chance, indeed a great possibility of an armaments race.
During the Debates that we have had in this House it has often been said that if there was an armaments race in Europe, Germany, with her greater resources and her larger man power would overhaul France. I do not see an armaments race in that light. I do not believe that if Germany challenged the world again that she would have to race against France only. She would have to race against all nations and she would have no chance of success. During these 15 difficult years, no country in the world

661
has shown more sympathy with Germany's efforts to re-establish herself as a great nation than this country. I do not think there has been anywhere a greater welcome to Germany's efforts. Germany has made the Disarmament Clauses of the Treaty the touchstone of her rights to come back into the comity of nations. There were many unjust and many impracticable Clauses in the Treaty of Versailles but I believe that the Disarmament Clauses were justifiable at that time.
When we think of the time when those Clauses were made, when we think of the bitter memories which were then so fresh in the minds of the victorious Powers, can we believe that it would have been possible then to place a time limit within which the victorious nations could have been expected to say that they would disarm? I do not think that it was possible. The victorious Powers have not behaved as some would have us believe they have behaved. They did make preparations fairly soon after the signature of the Treaty of Versailles for bolding a Disarmament Conference and that Disarmament Conference, which they pushed forward, was a really genuine effort on the part of the Allied Powers to establish peace in Europe. That Conference was not broken up by the then victorious Powers, but by Germany.
The deadlock which has arisen has naturally caused us in this country to examine the position both here and in Europe and our attitude towards international problems. A great deal has been said about isolation. I believe that isolation is against all the lessons of history. There has never been a major and a general European conflict from which we have been able to keep out. We have tried often to remain neutral and stand aside but we have inevitably been drawn in. The changed conditions of warfare have swept away the barriers which were so strong in the past, and if we were not able to keep out of conflicts in the past I do not think that it would be possible to keep out at the present time. If we have any doubt in regard to our present position let us consider the position of the United States, a country which has greater isolationist traditions than we have, a country which does not believe in foreign entanglements. The United States attempted to keep out of the last
662
War, but with the wide Atlantic between Europe and its own shores it was gradually driven by circumstances until it became a decisive factor in the conflict. Even if we were able to remain outside a conflict and stand aside, I do not think it would avail us anything for in the general ruin which would inevitably follow a European war we should share with all the nations of the world.
The crisis has brought forward various proposals from the Opposition. At their meeting at Hastings they made it quite clear that if they are in power when a major European crisis arises, they will make this country ineffective in international affairs and will silence its voice in Europe. They have laid it down that, however great the outrage, however just the cause, they will strike and not fight. They twill make Locarno useless, and deal a mortal blow at the League of Nations. The passing of these academic resolutions is merely playing with a problem which affects the fate and happiness of many millions. The Leader of the Opposition, during the course of his speech last week, said that the Conservative party had had their conference at Birmingham and that several significant resolutions had been passed. A Government must be judged by its deeds and an Opposition by its intentions. Hon. Members in this House have a great respect for the sincerity of the right hon. Member the Leader of the Opposition, but in the speeches he has made during the last few weeks I do not think he has shown any real sense of the brutal realities and the practical side of war. He does not seem to realise that many factors contribute to the establishment of peace and the maintenance of order, education, healthy public opinion, increasing common sense and, in the last resort, the use of force.
The failure to realise that the task of establishing peace is an arduous one has led to the irresponsible campaign which has been carried on up and down the country. We have to go back and hold to the barrier which was set up by the Peace Conference, that bit of ground gained in the course of those difficult days for peace, and that is the League of Nations. It has been the endeavour of the Government to build up satisfactory machinery for dealing with

663
international problems. I should like hon. Members to go back to those difficult days in June and July, 1914, and remember the efforts made by the then Liberal Government to reconstruct the Concert of Europe, to try and get the nations of Europe to see where they were going and make one effort to stop the conflict which was then upon us. How useless it was. There was no real machinery. We have the machinery to-day. It may not be effective; it may not be strong, but it is machinery which there is still a chance to make strong and effective. It can do two things. It can consolidate the opinion of the world when an aggressor makes it clear that he is going to attack. It may stop the attack merely by a movement of the little finger, but if it is impossible to cheek the aggressor by uniting world public opinion, it will be able to marshal the nations against the aggressor.
To abandon the League of Nations is to abandon all hope of settlement. We should abandon even more than disarmament, we should abandon the hope of a new international order. I do not think it will be easy or that the disarmament and pacification of Europe will come quickly. A Convention, if we do arrive at one, can only be a beginning; and it is by deeds and not by words that we shall really restore the confidence of European nations. The Noble Lord the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) said that he was taking a rather unpopular line by suggesting that France and Germany should be brought together. I trust that it is not an unpopular line. I can imagine nothing better than that Germany and France should come together, and I do not think that His Majesty's Government will stand in the way, but will rather do all they can to help to bring about that result. It is only along the line of establishing confidence between these two great nations that it will be possible in the end to arrive at that feeling of confidence and security which alone is the foundation for a happier and better Europe.
8.52 p.m.
Mr. COCKS: When I came into the House just now the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle- under- Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) was making a speech which I judged would have been more appropriate to the naval or military
664
Estimates, but I felt that he was quite right in taking the line he did for, although the House may not realise it, it is clear that the Disarmament Conference is dead, and it was killed to-night by a single sentence from the Prime Minister. In the statement which the Prime Minister read and which, therefore, I presume was a Cabinet statement, he made use of words like these:
"No Government can compel another Government to take risks they feel too great for them, and for our part we say that we cannot extend our obligations in order to induce them to do so."
In that one sentence the Prime Minister has destroyed the Disarmament Conference, and has made the fortunes of the armament firms.
The PRIME MINISTER indicated dissent.
Mr. COCKS: I want to deal, in the first place, with the point that Germany has left the Disarmament Conference. We have been told from certain quarters that the rise of Hitlerism in Germany, and the present mood of Germany, is due to the fact that other Powers have failed to carry out their promises given at Versailles and have not disarmed. I doubt whether that is really the case. The rise of Hitlerism in Germany is due to many causes, some of which do not concern us to-night, but I do not think that the chief cause is the fact that other nations have not disarmed. If I were going into the various reasons which have caused Germany to take up the attitude she has, I might take the Treaty of Versailles itself, and I am confirmed in that by a speech made a week ago by Baron von Neurath, the German Foreign Minister, in which he includes amongst the German grievances matters like the partition of Upper Silesia, the Eupen-Malmely referendum, the treatment of Danzig and Poland, the question of the Saar, and the question of the German colonies which were taken away from her. To these I might add the Polish Corridor and the fact that the British Government at that time was the leading Government which imposed on Germany the whole cost of the War, which, incidentally, she has not paid. It is said that Germany is disarmed, I do not know. A statement was made in the "Times" the other day by Professor Morgan, a member of the Interallied Military Commission which supervised the disarmament of Germany,

665
in which he said that when the final report is published:
"The whole world will be convinced that Germany was never disarmed, never intended to disarm, and for seven years did everything in her power to obstruct, deceive, and counter-control the Commission whose duty it was to disarm her."
And to-day Germany who has removed pacifism and internationalism from her vocabulary, in the words of her leading statesman, who is threatening unarmed and defenceless Denmark and an impotent Austria, who is trying her best to separate Britain and France, who is preaching on every side the gospel of militarism and war, that country is arming at the present moment ac headlong speed with the aid of supplies of spelter and nickel and scrap iron which are being poured into her by British capitalists and the capitalists of other countries; and she is being aided by British armament firms, who are advertising in Germany arms which are forbidden Germany by the Treaty of Versailles. [An HON. MEMBER: "Name the firm!"] The name of the firm that is advertising tanks, which are forbidden to Germany, is Vickers Armstrong. That fact has been published and is well known. The result of the election at Fulham, which the Prime Minister describes as an amusing incident, is a revolt against the armament firms who are thrusting to-day into the hands of Germany and of Japan the very sword with which civilisation may be destroyed. If those swords are drawn and we suffer as a result, the blood of us and of our children will be on the heads of a Government which declines, even when asked to do so by the French Government, to control the traffic in arms.
The second point which has led to a position for which the Government are indeed greatly responsible, is the failure of the League of Nations in the Far East. To-clay we see established on the main- land of Asia a formidable treaty-breaking Power which has broken not merely the Covenant of the League of Nations, the Kellogg Pact and the Nine-Power Treaty, but is a country which regards treaties and tears them up as if they were scraps of paper, and regards the League and Internationalism with contempt. And it has done all that with the bland acquiescence of our Foreign Secretary and Foreign Office. Over and over again last year,
666
before the crisis reached the present point, we begged the Foreign Secretary and the Under-Secretary—I do not blame the Under-Secretary, because he is not a free agent—to say something or do something which would restrain the action which the militarist party of Japan, as against the civil party, were taking at that time. They refused to do anything of the sort. They refused not only to protest, but to sign a note which the United States sent and asked us to sign, to say that we would not recognise any territory taken as a result of the breaking of those treaties. By this action we encouraged Japan to go forward, and as a result we have established in Asia a formidable Power which may become a menace to the British Empire, as it is certainly a menace to all who stand for international peace and reorganisation.
It is largely due to the weakness of the British Government in this respect that the present movement in Germany has developed. I have said that the Disarmament Conference has failed. The right hon. Gentleman who leads the Liberal party said that he felt that too, in the gloom which was produced by the speeches from the Front Bench. But the Disarmament Conference has failed, and it will always fail, unless the Government moves from the attitude it has unfortunately taken up. I make an appeal to the Prime Minister to alter his attitude, because it was not always his attitude. When I consider the work that has been done for disarmament since the Armistice, I feel that the work reached its culmination in the Protocol at Geneva in 1924, during the time of the Labour Government. I see that the Prime Minister agrees with me. When I consider the work he did along those lines for Disarmament I regret that he bas not gone on with it and I hope he will use his great influence inside the Government to revive the Protocol which was afterwards repudiated. Since the idea of pooled security has been abandoned by the British Government not one single step has been taken in the direction of disarmament or international peace. We have not made any progress, for the simple and common-sense reason which appeals to people without question of party, that no nation will disarm unless it feels secure, and no nation will feel secure when its arms are limited, unless

667
it feels absolutely certain that if it is attacked unjustly by some other Power all the other nations will come to its assistance and defend it against the aggressor nation. It is only within the realm of armed peace and armed justice that disarmament can be accomplished and peace be preserved.
The Foreign Secretary said last Tuesday that the great problem before the Government and the world was to reconcile the German idea of equality with the French demand for security. But it is not merely the French who are demanding security. The demand for security is the demand of the humanity of the world, and the only way by which humanity can be secured from those dreadful things which the Lord President of the Council foreshadowed in a famous speech some time ago, is by a system of collective peace. There are three essentials. You will have to set up a system of compulsory arbitration, collective arbitration with an international court—not the Council of the League of Nations, which must have unanimity, but an international court such as is suggested by the Protocol at Geneva, a court whose decision shall be final. Secondly, you might have behind that court an international police. I agree with the Prime Minister that there are many objections to it. I do not consider that it should be a squadron of bombing aeroplanes, but it might consist of swift aeroplanes with unarmed officers coming down to the frontiers and having behind them the prestige of the whole of the forces of the world. Behind that the Council will have to call on the national but limited forces of the States.
Thirdly, you must have automatic definition of an aggressor. It is necessary that the nation should know exactly where they stand and what they will have to do in the event of the peace of the world being broken. The definition of an aggressor in its simplest form would be, "The nation which goes to war in defiance of the court—the nation which refuses to arbitrate and goes to war or the nation which refuses to accept a decision of the court and then goes to war." I have heard certain subsidiary objections to this plan but the only serious objection which I have heard is that mentioned to-night by the Prime Minister, namely,
668
that we are not prepared at the present time to extend our responsibilities.
I ask hon. Members on all sides to consider that in a proposition of this sort it is not a question of extending our responsibilities but of extending and strengthening our own defences. Under a system of that sort, if this country were ever unjustly attacked we should be able to call upon the forces of the other countries of the world to defend us, just as we would defend any of the other countries if they were unjustly attacked. I do not regard that as an extension of our responsibilities. It has often been said that the greatest interest of this country is peace and therefore by defending peace, we shall not be extending our responsibilities out of all proportion to our interests? In any case as the hon. and gallant Member for Carlisle (Brigadier-General Spears), with whose words I fully agree, has said we have to pay the price of peace and that price is simply to put our naval, military and air power at the service, which is no mean service, of international justice. I believe that to be the only way in which peace can be preserved. Reject that plan and I believe that war will become inevitable.
9.7 p.m.
Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: I am sure that of the interesting speeches we have heard to-day few can have intrigued the House more than that of the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. S. Cocks). No doubt he expressed a great deal of magnificent idealism and we all hope some day, though some of us think it may not be for many hundreds of years, the world will be ready to offer its sons in defence of any nation whatever the quarrel may be and however distant it may be. I agree that that is a magnificent ideal and I do not think that the hon. Member should be blamed for holding it, but it must be confessed that while we listened to the hon. Member's speech, so full of that magnificent ideal,-we felt that we could not have heard much more sabre-rattling than he indulged in during his oration. First there was a fierce diatribe against the Japanese. Then there were his strictures against Germany, in which he pointed out that the fears of war entertained in various sections of the House were justified. Then we had as the final dose, the statement that this country

669
would have to place its Fleet, its Army and its Air Force at the disposal of the League of Nations to fight in any war anywhere if the peace of the world was broken.
These are dangerous speeches, because they confuse the public. I suggest that the greatest harm is being done to the cause of peace by these everlasting debates about War and Disarmament. Year after year our pacifists in the pulpit, at the by-elections and in the Press, keep this question of war in front of the people. I suggest that this constant talk of War and Disarmament is creating fear which has always been the parent of war. A Debate such as has been initiated to-day by the Opposition does not help the cause of Peace. Debates of this kind set the countries of the world counting once more their men, their ships, their aeroplanes. The hon. Member who spoke just now from such a truly idealistic point of view will agree I think that everyone in this House wants peace and the people who want peace more than anyone else are those who know what bloody war means, day after day and month after month, those who have seen the hell of war for themselves. They desire peace just as much as the gentlemen who are always frightening the old women of this country by making them believe that there is a war just round the next corner.
I wish to say a few words upon the attitude of the Opposition towards this question. The Leader of the Socialist party is responsible for this Vote of Censure—though having read it carefully it seems to me that in some respects it is really a vote of praise because its terms have been so largely poached from the various endeavours of this Government and other Governments to find a solution of the problem. The right hon. Gentleman in his recent utterances has adopted a line which has given great cause of uneasiness to many of his supporters. They do not know where he is. First, he made a speech in which he called upon the young men of this country not to join the Army, Navy or the Air Force. That is serious advice coming from one who holds such a responsible position and who, no doubt, aspires some day, when he has reached more advanced middle-age, to be the Prime Minister of this country. If any humble agitator were to take such a line he would bring himself very close to the law.
670
The hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) knows all about these things. He is going to be greater than the law one of these days, and he is probably aware that under Section 98 of the Army Act a person who without due authority directly or indirectly interferes with the recruiting services of the Forces is liable on summary conviction to a fine. Never before in this country has anyone holding the responsible position of the right hon. Gentleman made a statement of that description. An agitator, for instance the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) might be run in for taking an attitude of that kind in the North of this country, and I cannot see why there should be one law for the poor and another for the Socialist Member of Parliament.
But the right hon. Gentleman made another speech. Having urged the young men of the country not to join the Forces of the Crown he made a speech two or three days later in which he said that this country ought to have coerced Japan. Later on we learned from him that Germany must not be allowed to re-arm, and finally he told us that when his party got into power the masses of the soldiers and sailors would back up him and his friends.
Mr. KIRKWO0D: Hear, hear—against capitalism, and that is right.
Sir H. CROFT: I may say that the hon. Gentleman who interrupts is dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's" of his Leader, so that the people of this country outside may clearly understand that if a Socialist Government is to be returned, the armed forces of the Crown, whose recruitment he has tried to destroy in the meantime, are not to be used for national defence, but are to be used as a kind of Nazi force to compel the people of this country to swallow Socialist measures which they loathe and detest. I find it rather hard to square these statements with the Sermon on the Mount which is so frequently invoked in the speeches of those who support this Motion. There is a similar confusion of thought, it seems to me, on the Front Bench here, where I know the hon. Gentleman wants to qualify in the realm of accuracy, with regard to the Treaty of Versailles. The hon. and learned Member for East

671
Bristol, whom I am glad to see in his place, stated recently:
"In 1919 we pledged our honour as a country that we would disarm as soon as possible and other countries did the same. In the face of that Germany accepted the Treaty of Versailles."
The hon. and learned Gentleman still has not read the Treaty of Versailles, and he still believes apparently that his statement was sincere and correct. The terms are—I do not know whether he will dispute the actual words:
"The maintenance of peace requires the reduction of national armaments to the lowest point consistent with national safety and the enforcement by common action of international obligations."
You cannot square that with the speech which the hon. and learned Gentleman made in the country. I suppose it is not necessary for our embryo Hitlers in this country to use the same accuracy as an ordinary constitutional lawyer would naturally have to adopt. Even so, when he is discarding the wig and the gown for the toga, I think people will look to him to give some semblance of facts with regard to great and vital matters such as the Treaty of Versailles. This country, as every fair-minded man and woman of British blood will admit, and every foreign statesman that any of us has ever met will admit, and will generously admit, has gone far beyond any kind of pledge that we have made. Certainly, there was no pledge in the Treaty of Versailles which we have not far exceeded in the matter of limitation of our armaments. In fact, we have reduced our armaments to such a degree that not only, as has been pointed out, has our example not been followed, but we have actually arrived, in the solemn words of a Member of the Cabinet, at the edge of risk.
I want to point out how I believe that the pursuance of that policy is likely, not to make for world peace, but to defeat that very object, which is so dear to the Prime Minister and those around him. When the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol states that we have done nothing in this connection, words fail me. It is a frigid and calculated reversal of the facts, which, if I was not standing in Parliament, I might describe by a very much better known but shorter English word. He and his friends are bringing this attack upon the Government on the ground that they have not gone farther
672
in the matter of disarmament. I was very surprised to hear the hon. Member, in his really fair attack on everyone, state that this failure has gone on for the last eight years. He did not exonerate even his right hon. Friend who sat below him, but when the attack is made on the Government because they have not disarmed far enough, though I do not think it is a matter of praise, I think that if they searched, they would discover that actually the Coalition Government and Conservative Governments reduced our armed forces to a greater extent than their own Governments did; and if that be the case, the indictment of the hon. and learned Member of the criminals who are to enter the dock at eleven o'clock to-night falls on those sitting around him now, and not on those on the Government Bench opposite.
I beg the House to remember—I do not want to labour it, because the hon. and gallant Member who spoke just now so admirably expressed the point of view of the French fears—that we have to realise, as anyone who has visited France recently will have done, that among the very humblest in the land there is this real terror. The taxi driver who drives you to the hotel, the man who welcomes you at your hotel, the humblest people in the land, have this clutching dread upon them the whole time, and it is no good saying that that is a militarist feeling. It is a feeling of great and deep-seated fear among the French people. The French are a logical race, and they have not, like us, got the blue ocean to protect them. They have not the Channel separating them from their neighbours. They are logical, because they have been taught logic by the fact that twice they have seen mighty armed hosts pour over their frontiers, desolate their provinces, and, in the last case, slay and lacerate some millions of their people. These things are very fresh in French minds, and because they are so logical, they say: "Who was it who broke the Treaty of Versailles?" I am merely describing the views that I have picked up from ordinary people in France. They say: It was the Germans who broke the Treaty, when they declared that they could not pay the costs of the War, which they had given their solemn obligation to do." Then, following it up with their logical mind, they say: "How, if they had to break ale Treaty on the ground of their poverty,

673
can they afford to re-arm as they are so clearly doing now?"
That is one side of the case. I have no personal animus against the people of Germany. I think they are a very brave race. I think they are a great and proud people. At the same time, one has to realise that at present that people is mobilised in mind and thought in the same way as it was mobilised at the commencement of the War. I have studied the whole of the announcements of Herr Hitler recently, in order to try to find what he is really out for, and I notice that there was one phrase which might be taken by those who have not studied anything to do with war as a very generous utterance on his part. He said, in his manifesto:
"The German Government and people renew the vow joyfullly to agree in any real disarmament of the world and are ready to destroy the last German machine gun and dismiss the last man from the army if the other nations desire to do the same."
Let us come back absolutely to realities. If that were done, Germany, with her great population, would have a greater number of trained men and would be on an absolute equality with her neighbours. She would be able to run through Austria, Poland, Denmark, and Belgium, and obviously Germany would be in a very strong position at that time. Precisely the same is the case with regard to Russia, which proposed a similar plan. Russia said she was prepared to join in complete universal disarmament, but it is estimated that she has 8,000,000 men who have had some form of military training, some of them a very high form of military training, and if everybody was armed merely with a rifle, what an appalling danger that would be for the whole of the countries on her western frontiers.
I am going to ask the House a question which, I know, is very unfashionable, but I think it is just as well that we should search our hearts and ask if we are being quite honest with ourselves in regard to this whole matter. Can anyone tell me of any war which actually commenced on account of armaments? I ask that question, because I should very much like to have an answer from the Government benches this evening. If we were sincere with ourselves, faced facts and came down out of the clouds, we should say that for 100 years the peace of this people, and largely the peace of Europe,
674
has been preserved by the fact that there was a great and mighty fleet in the hands of a nation whose only desire was peace.
Mr. LOGAN: I hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not suggest that the right hon. Member said that the last War was caused by armaments.
Sir H. CROFT: I merely want to reinforce this argument. I am not a militarist; I do not want any fighting, but can anyone doubt that if we had listened to Lord Roberts in 1910, 1911 and 1912 and enlarged our Territorial Force so as to have 1,000,000 men behind the Regular Army, and if we had told the truth to Germany in 1913 and 1914, the War would have been—I will not say avoided for ever, but postponed? It was my privilege to meet a number of very distinguished Germans soon after the War. I asked them all again and again, "Would the War have taken place supposing Lord Roberts's ideas had been fulfilled and we had had an additional 1,000,000 men trained and mobilised?" They all answered:" Of course, if we had really believed that you were coming into the War and had that force behind you, we could not have risked it." The risk would have been far too great, and I believe that any student of affairs would have agreed that this was true. The Great War was an awful fact that is still fresh in our memories, but I wonder if it is generally appreciated that in the Civil War of the United States of America, with a population far smaller than ours, there was a greater slaughter of men of our own blood and a greater loss in British dead than in the European War. They had no armaments at all.
I beg hon. Members not to sacrifice too much to the idea that merely by saying "Disarm! disarm!" they will, in fact, disarm the world. We have to get the spiritual idea through the world; it is much more important than any action of that description. I am convinced that every sane man here and in every other country would desire to see the great expense of armaments reduced in order that nations should balance their budgets and that taxpayers should be relieved from these burdens which make people so angry and so sour with life. Obviously, the greatest blow at disarmament was struck by the United States of America when we offered to

675
reduce the size of our battleships, and of our guns. That was a great blow at world sanity. It would obviously be good to get rid of heavy guns, tanks and submarines, provided that the riddance was universal all round; that must, be for the advantage of the world. But if you succeed in doing this, do you think that it is going to make any difference in the long run to whether a nation desires or intends to go to war or not? Had I time I should have liked to tell the House of all the extraordinary differences in view of the recent announcement of Herr Hitler and his colleagues in Germany, compared with the hook which was published and translated into English at the beginning of this year. I beg hon. Gentlemen to get hold of the original book and either translate it or have it translated for them, because they will find the most terrible indications of a complete recrudescence of the old Prussian ideals in Germany. I should like to read one extract in particular to hon. Gentlemen:
"The settling of accounts with France would be useless if it were made the sole objective of our foreign policy. It can only begin to mean anything when it is covering our rear for an expansion of territory in Europe."
That is a very alarming statement coming from the gentleman who is to-day Chancellor. We will hope that his utterances of last week are different and that he has abandoned the utterance in this book and that which he wrote in his appeal to the young people of Germany:
"The smallest youngster must he taught to pray: 'Almighty God, bless our Arms; render justice as Thou wert ever wont; do Thou judge now if we are worthy of freedom; Lord, bless our battle.'"
These two vital extracts did not appear in any English translation, hut if we, who have suffered so much as a people and as a race—as the whole world has suffered—ignore these facts, we, are doing a very ill service in the cause of peace.
In all the history of man there have been only 268 years of peace against 3,154 years of war.
Viscountess ASTOR: Because women never had the vote!
Sir H. CROFT: I do not want to engage in any political controversy on such a vital subject. I know there are some things in which all the men in the
676
world have failed and that women will take their places—I hope they can; they have not so far shown much likelihood of doing so. But we who live on this earth, in our short span of life are mere specks against that great passage of time. How can we really imagine that because we say in the pulpit, "There will be no more war," and say, "No more war, do you hear? you wicked English people!" war will really cease? Let us go down on our knees and pray that there will be no more war; let us do everything in our power to bring the countries of the world together along peaceful lines.
I, for one, have never doubted the sincerity of the right hon. Gentleman, and all that he has done in this respect. But there is no good in denying the fact that up to now this policy, which has been tried with tremendous faith and energy, has not succeeded. I ask hon. Members and the people of this country whether with our present weakness in defence we can so surely influence our friends in different parts of the world to a more peaceful line of action as if we were able to say, "Here we are, still the great, proud race which five times has prevented Europe from falling under the heels of the dictator in the past, and which, when the time comes that we find our own country and our great Empire subjected to great danger, will take action; and if we find small nations about to be subjugated by some great Power acting as a bully, we shall be prepared to intervene again." I do not like written agreements which might possibly commit us to send our children into a great and terrible war on one or other side to help a Power with which we may have no sympathy. I am glad to learn to-night that we retain our freedom, for I feared that we did not.
In conclusion, it is my fundamental belief, first that if the British Empire with its real desire for peace is strong, it can do much more to help the Powers of the world to come together than if it were weak. I desire to say in the fullness of my heart that I do not believe it is altogether wise to tie your country up to this and that agreement for any long period of years, although I admit that it may have helped the situation in the last five or six years. I believe that in the long run we ought only to offer the lives of our people in the cause of right against

677
wrong, and that when we see the devilish forces setting up all over the world and making war upon Christianity, this country ought not to be finally committed to any one course. We ought to be a strong, peace-loving people free to intervene if we have to do so in such a way as to show the world once more that this country really stands by great ideals.
9.36 p.m.
Sir S. CRIPPS: The hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) who, I am sure, has as profound a desire for peace as any of us in this House, believes in the old doctrine of armed security and of individual action being taken by this country as and when it desires. It is a profoundly different policy from that in which we believe. He stated, I think quite accurately, that mere disarmament will not bring about peace. He said that the whole psychology of the nations has to change, and he might have added that the whole international economic system had to change as well. I prefer the opinion of the united nations of the world immediately after the War to his as regards the value of disarmament. In Article VIII of the Covenant, they said:
"The members of the League recognise that the maintenance of peace requires the reduction of national armaments to the lowest point consistent with national safety and the enforcement by common action of international obligations."
That Article is dealing, of course, with the enforcement by common action of international obligations, and not enforcement by individual action of individual obligations. Then the hon. Baronet charged me with having said that there was a moral obligation under the Treaty of Versailles that we should disarm, and I venture to suggest that nearly everybody already acknowledges the moral obligation. With regard to Part V of the Treaty of Versailles, the German delegation made the following reservation:
"Germany is prepared to agree to the basic idea of the Army, Navy and Air Force regulations … provided that this is a beginning of a general reduction of armaments."
To that the Allied Powers replied:
"The Allied and Associated Powers wish to make it clear that their requirements in regard to German armaments were not made solely with the object of rendering it impossible to resume her policy of military
678
aggression. They are also the first step towards the reduction and limitation of armaments which they seek to bring about as one of the most fruitful preventives of war, and which it will be one of the first duties of the League of Nations to promote."
I venture to suggest that that fully justifies the statement that it is the moral obligation of this country as well as of other countries in the world to bring about as speedily as possible a measure of disarmament comparable to the measure of disarmament of Germany at the time of the Treaty of Versailles.
Sir H. CROFT: May I quote once more the words which the hon. and learned Member used? He said:
"In 1919 we pledged our honour as a country that we would disarm as soon as possible."
Sir S. CRIPPS: Certainly, and I think there could be no clearer pledge of our honour than that letter of Clemenceau to the Germans. I want to say a word before I come to the main subject on the Foreign Secretary's remarks on a speech I made at Bristol. The Foreign Secretary was a little anxious after the East Fulham by-election to bolster up the National Government, which felt its foundations in a somewhat quivering state. He adopted what I might call a slightly petulant style, rather the sort of style of someone who is feeling a bit rattled. He reminded me of some of the things that General Goering said at the Reichstag fire trial. The precise matter of which he complained was that I stated, with reference to the disarmament of Germany under the Treaty of Versailles, that we had done nothing to disarm, and I repeat that statement in the House now. Everybody knows that our forces have been mechanised and rationalised since the War, and that does not decrease their efficiency. In fact, it has been said by spokesmen for the Government with considerable pride that the mechanisation of our Army has increased its efficiency. That, indeed, was the reason put forward for mechanisation.
There are only two possible ways by which you can test the degree or the fact of disarmament, which implies, of course, abolishing something. The first is to test Whether there has been any total abolition of a classified kind of arm, and as to that, of course, no question arises in this country. The other is to take the total expenditure upon armaments. [HON.

679
MEMBERS: "No!"] Hon. Members who say "No!" will appreciate that that is one of the criteria that has been put forward at the Disarmament Conference as a test of disarmament. It is not much good selecting the number of men if you mechanise your forces and reduce the number of men. If one takes the total expenditure and compares it, not with 1913 as the right hon. Gentleman did, but with what is more usually taken in calculating these figures, the average pre-War figure; if you take the post-War figures and reduce them by the proper factors owing to the rise in prices since the War——[An HoN. MEMBER: "Oh!"] The hon. Gentleman does not appreciate that that gives the better comparison from his point of view, because it reduces a figure of £115,000,000 or £120,000,000 by a very considerable amount. He would have been the first to complain if I had put forward the comparison without making that reduction. If one takes those figures, one finds that the increase in expenditure in armaments in this country has been very considerable throughout the post-War period. Indeed, in the last two years it bas been very large indeed.
There was a very informative pamphlet published in 1930 by "The Economist"—not a particularly Socialist paper—dealing with the armament expenditure of the world. The author of it was formerly a member of the Economic Section of the Secretariat of the League, and was Secretary-General of the Economic Defence Council of Sweden, and presumably knew something about the matter. He sums up the position up to 1930 as regards Great Britain in this way:
"If the expenditure for non-effective services be deducted"—
that is, pensions and so on—
"the effective charges are £64,000,000 on the average of the five pre-War years, and £102,000,000 on the average of the years 1995 to 1929, an increase of 58 per cent. The Budget charges for armaments have thus increased at the same pace as the rise in prices, and represent very nearly the same proportion of the nation's income as before the War. The British taxpayer is still burdened with charges for preparations in view of the possibility of future wars which are as high as those in 1909–1913, before the Great War was won."
So far as that gentleman is concerned, he clearly is of opinion that there has been no measure of Disarmament on that criterion. If one carries forward those
680
figures to the last two years—the present year and the year preceding it—one finds, taking the total figure, that the figure of £70,200,000 pre-War has now grown—being reduced in accordance with the wholesale index figure of 100—in 1932 and in 1933 to £108,900,000. If anybody examines those figures it is perfectly clear that one cannot say, and it would not be the fact to say, that this country has disarmed since the pre-War period. Whether hon. and right hon. Gentlemen like it or not, that is the fact. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense!"] I venture to suggest that it is a complete misunderstanding of the position to say that merely because there have been changes, that more money has been spent on one thing and less money spent on another thing, that there has been a measure of Disarmament.
What is absolutely true, and is a matter for which this country and this Government are perfectly entitled to take the credit, is that our armaments have not been allowed to grow as rapidly as in some other countries. That is perfectly true, and no one that I know has ever suggested that they have been allowed to grow as rapidly as in other countries. Fortunately, we have not yet been stampeded into the fresh race for armaments into which some countries, like America, with her recent naval expenditure, have been stampeded. Those being the facts—[Laughter.] Well, perhaps hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will get the facts out for themselves. Some hon. Gentlemen are apparently unable to appreciate the arguments based on the money system. Those being the facts, it is quite clear the reason for those facts is the failure of the Disarmament Conference. The object of the Disarmament Conference was to enable all the countries of the world to agree upon a measure of disarmament, so that they might each carry out disarmament in their own field, and it is because they have been unable to agree that, naturally, they have been unable, so far, to disarm. That the situation is extremely grave at this moment there is no doubt. I will read the House a message which has just conic from the Geneva correspondent of the "Daily Herald." As it happens to be a statement by the President of the Disarmament Conference, I thought the House might be interested. Everybody knows

681
there were rumours this afternoon that he had resigned his position owing to difficulties in the Disarmament Conference. He says:
"I have not decided to resign, but the present situation is most unsatisfactory. Unless there is a change in the present situation I cannot continue as President of the Conference. No results are likely to be achieved by the attitude adopted by delegations at the recent meetings, and it is useless for me to remain here for months unless their attitude changes."
It is because we are trying to persuade His Majesty's Government to change their attitude, in order that the Disarmament Conference may not come to a sad and tragic end speedily, that we brought forward this Motion to-night.
Viscountess ASTOR: Could the hon.and learned Gentleman tell us—[HoN. MEMBERS: "Order."]
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain Bourne): The Noble Lady cannot rise unless the hon. and learned Gentleman gives way.
Sir S. CRIPPS: I would be glad to give way if I were not trying to make time for the Foreign Secretary. I want now to come to the first part of the Motion, which is the charge against His Majesty's Government for not having pursued a policy at the Disarmament Conference which was likely to lead to success. I do not want anybody to suppose that I am accusing either the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary or the Under-Secretary of being bloodthirsty or wanting war. I am perfectly certain that they, like everyone else in the House, have a sincere desire for peace, but it is not a question of intention, it is a question of policy, and we believe the policy that they have followed and are following will result in war and not in peace; because they have failed absolutely to give their unstinted support to the collective peace system which has been set up, and unless that is given we feel perfectly convinced that we shall get back into the anarchy of war which some people seem to desire.
Mr. ALBERY: What is the collective peace system?
Sir S. CRIPPS: The collective peace system, which the hon. Member does not seem to have heard about, is like any other system of law: it can only function
682
if the principal members of society give it their support—not their lip service but their support by action. This country is one of the most powerful and influential members of the society of nations and we believe it has the greatest power and opportunity of making the collective peace system, under the Covenant of the League of Nations effective. The hon. Member will have heard, perhaps, of the Covenant of the League of Nations. We believe that the Government have embarked upon this adventure of disarmament in the true spirit of compromise. They have tried all the time to support the League of Nations, and also to give full rein to the technical experts, and retain those weapons which they have been advised that this country needs if there is a war. We believe they have got to choose between the two courses, both of which have been pressed upon them to-day: one, to abandon the League of Nations and to rely upon our own strength and our own individual security; and the other, to abandon the idea of being able to support peace by our own armed strength and go in boldly for the policy of collective peace. We think the tragedy of the Disarmament Conference started with the Sino-Japanese dispute. A speech made by the Minister of Agriculture and reported in the "Daily Telegraph" of 1st November this year shows, I think, either a complete misunderstanding of the position by the Government or else their election to take what we believe to be the wrong course. He said:
"We have a record for peace loving that no party can surpass. We can challenge any party, certainly Mr. Lansbury's party.
He went on to recall how my right hon. Friend and his friends had "howled" for sanctions to be taken against great nations in the East, a course which might have led this country to the verge of war. Exactly. If it had led this country to the verge of war, it would have been a war that was fought to support the collective peace system. The same complete misunderstanding of the situation was shown by the Prime Minister's speech this afternoon, when he asked what was the use of asking this country to give up police bombing if you propose to have an international police force. I might ask him a question: "What is the good of asking garroters not to garrote people in the streets, if you are going to have

683
a police force? "The very object of a police force is to stop individual anarchic action and to enforce a co-operative peace system. [Laughter.] Hon. Members may well laugh, but they do not seem to appreciate that when they entered into and signed the Covenant of the League of Nations and the Optional Clause they bound this country to undertake the defence of the co-operative peace system, and bound this country by its honourable word to protect that peace system. Now they are laughing at it, as a piece of paper.
I quite appreciate that some hon. Members think that the League of Nations is a rotten idea, that the Disarmament Conference should be abandoned and that we should get back to the old pre-war system. I quite appreciate that attitude of mind, but there is the other attitude of mind that, having bound ourselves by those solemn covenants we have got, in honour, to support that system. [HON. MEMBERS: "What with?"] With economic boycott and with armed forces if necessary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Bombs! War!"] Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen do not seem to realise that this country is pledged at the present time. It is not a question of this country selecting what it will do; it is pledged in honour. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) was pointing out the other day our obligations under the Treaty of Locarno. We are pledged in honour under the Treaty of Locarno, until it is altered by negotiation, to take certain action in the event of certain occurrences. [An HON. MEMBER: "Will you call a general strike?"] The hon. Member need not be so anxious. I hope that he has done me the honour to read what I have said about it. I have said that a general strike would be the way of stopping this country acting contrary to its obligations under the Covenant of the League of Nations.
It is because of the Government's action and failure of action, in regard to the Sino-Japanese dispute, that we say that they caused the first serious setback to the cause of disarmament. Japan was declared an aggressor by the whole world, and it was the duty of this country, whatever personal sympathies and national sympathies were, if it desired to support the collective peace system, to take, or
684
to urge upon the League of Nations to take, immediate steps to stop the Japanese entering into Manchuria. I think that the attitude of the more conservative members of the Conservative party was put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) in his speech in this House on 27th February, 1933, when he said:
"The worship of unrealities to which this country, above all countries, has been giving itself at Geneva since the War is not going to conduce to the peace of the world. … There is a good deal of conscious or unconscious hypocrisy when we talk about the League of Nations, about disarmament and about peace."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1933; col. 84, Vol. 275.]
No doubt the National Govenment in their attempt to satisfy everyone—they are always trying to do that—have paid lip-service to the Covenant of the League, but by their actions, and especially by their action and their failure of action in regard to the Japanese dispute, have, in fact, sabotaged the whole collective system. The League of Nations Union, of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham is so distinguished a Member, on 27th July, 1933, expressed the opinion in a resolution that His Majesty's Government ought to invite the assistance of the United States of America to help the League of Nations in the boycott of Japan.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not know for what purpose the hon. and learned Gentleman thought it necessary to introduce my name at this point. Since I have been a member of the India Committee it has been impossible for me to attend meetings of the executive committee of the League of Nations Union. I should have preferred to resign, and will do so, if I am to he held accountable for resolutions passed in those circumstances.
Sir S. CRIPPS: I naturally accept the right hon. Gentleman's explanation. Knowing that he was such a distinguished member of the society I naturally thought that an important resolution of this sort would have had his concurrence or his denial. There are many other distinguished members, and no doubt some of them took part in the framing of the resolution. I quote it to show that there is a large body of opinion in this country, and not only on these benches, that takes the view that economic action ought to

685
have been taken against Japan, in the interests of the Covenant of the League. The repercussions of that have been tremendous. Let me remind the House of what Herr Frick, who is now one of Hitler's lieutenants, said some months ago, after the Japanese incursion into Manchuria. He said: "I pay the League my respects, but I thank Japan for her example." Herr von Papen, in that famous speech which was so widely reported, the blood-and-thunder speech, asked, "What right have the Members of the League to condemn Germany hypocritically for fighting merely a moral fight against an immoral treaty, when they did not raise a finger to stop countries that had resorted to war and broken all treaties?"—referring, of course, to the action of the countries of the world as regards Japan. The effect, of course, is only so far as Germany is concerned. It has already been mentioned this evening, and I will not go into it again, but the re-arming in the United States, and the action which is being taken by Australia and New Zealand in strengthening their armaments, are all repercussions from this. All arise from the refusal of the Governments of the world, and the refusal of our Government to lead the Governments of the world, in initiating action against Japan. I think that perhaps that great organ the "Morning Post" has described the situation most picturesquely:
"The Covenant has been pierced with a keen Samurai sword, and the League trampled into the dust by the jackboot of Hitler."
If there are conditions of that sort in the world, it is hardly surprising that people should feel insecure, and that one of the essential forerunners of disarmament is a feeling of a measure of security.
I pass from that point to the question of the Disarmament Conference itself. The same tragic vacillation and indecision accompanied the Government's actions in the Disarmament Conference, especially in the very precious early months of that Conference, when something might have been done. They were always trying to compromise between an expression of opinion favourable to the Covenant and an actual retention of those armaments which we value most, in particular, of course, the battleships. It is perfectly obvious that, if disarmament is ever going to be carried out, everybody
686
has to surrender what they feel is most valuable to them, or there will never be any effective surrender at all. It is impossible for us to keep battleships because we rely on them, and expect other people to get rid of submarines, upon which they mainly rely—France, for instance; yet our proposals in the early stages were the complete abolition of submarines and no alterations as regards the battleship programme. Time after time, in the early stages of the Conference, proposals were put forward by country after country, and we either damned them with faint praise or did worse than that and turned them down altogether. At the very outset, Germany pressed for the position of equality in disarmament—something which, as is shown by the passage which I have already quoted, had been clearly foreshadowed in the letter of M. Clemenceau before the Treaty of Versailles. One would have thought that the definition of "aggressive weapon" was sufficiently clear in the Treaty of Versailles when it said that the weapons were being forbidden to Germany because of her aggressive action in the military field, and at that time, clearly, all the nations in the world were of opinion that those things which were forbidden to Germany were properly described as aggressive.
It was the failure very largely to give a lead in the Conference as regards the equality of Germany in those early stages that caused such a tremendous waste of time, at the very time when there was a Government in Germany with which we could hope to do some bargaining and from which we could hope to get some consent. The campaign of Hitler followed, based very largely upon the action of the Allies in the Disarmament Conference, and the refusal of equality to Germany; and the danger, of course, now is that what we would not give to a democratic Germany Hitler thinks he can drag from us by threats of violence; and I hope he will not succeed in that. There were the Italian, the German, the French, the Russian and the United States proposals, none of which were accepted by this country, some of them hardly welcomed, and in the result there were the following propositions, for which this country did not vote at the Disarmament Conference in the early days:

687
As regards navies, the abolition of capital ships over 10,000 tons, and the abolition of aircraft carriers.
As regards the land, the direct limitation of land material, the abolition of heavy mobile artillery, the abolition of tanks, and the transference of heavy artillery to the League of Nations. Our Government voted in favour of none of these.
As regards the air, there was the internationalisation of civil aviation, the transference of bombing aircraft to the League of Nations, the abolition of bombing aircraft, the total abolition of military aviation, and the creation of an international air force. None of these were supported by the vote of our Government.
The only things that the Government did vote for in those early days were the abolition on land of offensive weapons particularly dangerous to civilian population, and the abolition of heavy artillery above a certain calibre; and, in naval affairs, the reduction of tonnage and maximum gun calibre in individual ships and the abolition of submarines. There were no votes on any matter connected with air disarmament at all—that disarmament of which the Lord President spoke in such tragic terms just about a year ago in this House, when he said, I think, that it was the duty of the younger men to take this job over—the old gentlemen could not deal with it any longer. I very much regret that the young men, of whom the Under-Secretary is such a very charming example, have not been able to influence the policy very much more violently than apparently they have. [An Holy. MEMBER: "What about your side?"] We, unfortunately, have no power with the Government; we can only blame them, and cannot make them do things. In February, 1932, a very inadequate suggestion was put forward by this country—certain vague and general proposals with no definition except the abolition of mobile guns over a certain calibre and of submarines. It was a suggestion ludicrously behind those of any of the other countries, such as Italy and France, which put forward suggestions at that time. Then, in April, 1932, there was the resolution on qualitative disarmament which was brought forward by the Foreign Secretary, and in which, I gather now, this Government do not believe, because I have here a quotation from
688
the Financial Secretary to the War Office, who, speaking during the East Fulham by-election, said:
"I frankly do not believe the way to peace lies in getting rid of one particular article of war. When a country is fighting for its life, it will use every weapon it can to defend itself. War is a costly, murderous business, but I think we are quite right in not agreeing to limit any one particular section of our armaments."
I gather, therefore, that the policy of the Government does not now go to the limitation of particular sections or particular armaments. That suggestion was made by the Foreign Secretary, and he then had to leave Geneva, and left in charge of the naval part a gentleman known as Admiral Pound, who made this somewhat extraordinary remark. I do not say that I quote his words, but this is the substance of it:
"Battleships were harmless weapons of defence, and more precious than rubies to those who possessed them."
In fact, he argued that qualitative disarmament did not apply to navies at all. It was not, therefore, very curious that Japan suggested immediately that no artillery was aggressive unless it was over 16 inches, which seems to be a fair size for a defensive weapon, and France suggested that no tank was aggressive unless it was over 20 tons, which also seems to be a fair size. In fact, of course, the whole thing was reduced to a roaring farce. The right hon. Gentleman, being pressed to define "aggressive weapon," used picturesque phraseology about the man who could not define an elephant but could recognise one when he saw it, to which the very appropriate reply was made that the trouble with the Foreign Secretary was that, while he could apparently recognise an elephant, he could not recognise a whale when he saw it.
In the result, of course, the experts in every country showed conclusively that the weapons that they were interested in were only defensive and could not possibly be aggressive weapons. Instead of adopting the definition of the Treaty of Versailles and sticking to something solid as regards aggressive weapons, the whole thing was thrown into the melting pot by this qualitative disarmament resolution and it gave the technical experts their opportunity, which they used to the full, to defeat any possibility of a disarmament programme. Then there fol-

689
lowed the private talks which the right hon. Gentleman initiated at the Beau Rivage Hotel, which became known the Beau Rivage talks, from which Germany was excluded, and, being excluded, of course she had her suspicions aroused This was in the summer of 1932. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman was, perhaps, staying at the Beau Rivage Hotel. It sounds rather like it. Then there was the Hoover proposal, which amounted, practically speaking, to a cut of a third in capital ships, a third in sub- marines, a quarter in cruisers and a quarter in destroyers, and which would, so far as this country is concerned, have meant a reduction in some 76 units in the Navy. That was rejected and an alternative proposal put up accepting a reduction in submarines, because of course we have always been keen to get rid of the submarine which is the thing we are afraid of. [Interruption.] Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that we are not afraid of submarines?
Sir H. CROFT: Such a statement in any other country would not be tolerated from anyone.
Sir S. CRIPPS: I thought it was a matter of the commonest knowledge to everyone in this country that the weapon we were most frightened of was the submarine. Instead of that we proposed the substitution, after 1937, of smaller battleships for those battleships which we have at present.
I promised the right hon. Gentleman that I would let him start as near 20 minutes past ten as I could, and I must, therefore, hurry through the rest of the sad story. [Interruption.] I wish I could complete it, but I am afraid I have not the time. In July, 1932, Germany left the Disarmament Conference, and it was not until December that she came back and in March the Draft Convention was submitted by the Prime Minister, again in our view hopelessly inadequate as regards a basis of disarmament and, in fact, if adopted, leading in the net result to the rearmament of Germany. It is impossible in the time to criticise it detail by detail. I must finish up by dealing with the main underlying point which we say has been missed by the Government and to which I would ask the right hon.
690
Gentleman to give us an answer. Is this country prepared, either as regards the definition of the aggressor or the taking of action against the aggressor, to sacrifice its own individual right to decide its own individual action? If it is not, if it insists on maintaining its individual rights in all circumstances, the League of Nations, the collective peace system and the whole of the rest of it is absolutely useless.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: That is the Covenant.
Sir S. CRIPPS: I am talking about the Disarmament Conference.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: You were talking about the League of Nations.
Sir S. CRIPPS: I am saying that, unless the Government are prepared to accept the position as regards aggressor and aggression under the Disarmament Conference, the League of Nations will be of no use. You will not be able to support the collective peace system in the Covenant of the League unless you are prepared to sacrifice to the idea of the international collective peace system some portion of your own domestic sovereignty. You cannot remain absolutely independent and at liberty to arrive at your own decision in these matters and give that security which is essential if a collective peace system is to work. Where we differ from the attitude which is taken up by the Government is that we believe that that sacrifice must be made in the interests of peace, and that unless this country is prepared to make it—and I quite understand that some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen are not—and to say definitely that in these matters it does not want the last word, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested it should have in the Locarno matter, then in our submission the whole of the collective peace system will inevitably fail. Nobody will feel safe in relying upon that peace system if they know that this country or any other country can dodge in or out of it as they wish. For these reasons, which I should like to have been able to elaborate had there been time, we say that His Majesty's Government, whatever their good will and wishes may be, have adopted a policy which has made it impossible to get the security which is necessary if disarmament is to come.
10.22 p.m.
Sir J. SIMON: The hon. and learned Gentleman at the beginning of his remarks dealt with, or attempted to deal with, the speech which he made on the subject of Britain's contribution towards disarmament from which I felt it my duty to quote in the Debate last week, and now that we have heard from the hon. and learned Gentleman there is no difficulty in fixing the facts. First of all, there is no dispute that he did say what I quoted. There is no doubt about it. There is no doubt that that has reference to the Treaty of Versailles. He said that in reference to disarmament:
"We have done nothing."
The hon. and learned Gentleman had an example before him, if he had cared to use it, in the way in which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) had dealt with a faulty statement on the same subject. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs made a speech in which he declared and truly declared:
"Germany disarmed; Britain followed, and even anticipated that process of disarmament, but she stood alone in carrying out her obligations."
When I called the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that he had not repeated the wording of that exception in favour of his own country in some subsequent declaration, the right hon. Gentleman did what we should expect him to do—what I think we should have expected almost any hon. Member in this House to do—he was ready to admit that he had made a mistake, and he put himself right with the House and the country by a manly admission of the truth. There is, however, another method, and that is the method of trying to brazen it out. The particular method by which the hon. and learned Gentleman is trying to justify his statement is one which is almost more amazing than the original misstatement itself. He tries to excuse his statement by referring to the fact that the actual amount of our annual expenditure expressed in coin of the realm in 1933 is greater than it was in 1914. Then he offers some calculations which are perfectly fantastic and which I will now proceed to try to correct. [Interruption.]
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This is a very important Debate and we should get on better if neither side interrupts.
Sir J. SIMON: I hope the House will be prepared to listen to these figures. In 1914 the net total Vote for the Navy was £51,500,000. In 1933 the net total Vote for the Navy was £53,500,000, but if you will take the Navy Estimates for 1933, namely, £53,500,000, at pre-war rates and prices the figure will be £34,250,000. Therefore, as regards the Navy, the actual fact is that there is a reduction as compared with the figures of 1914 of approximately 34 per cent. As regards the Army, the net total of the expenditure in 1914 was £28,800,000 and in 1933 it was £37,900,000. You can test these figures either way. While the Army Estimates in 1933 were £37,900,000, if you were to express the 1914 expenditure in present prices it would be over £40,000,000. There is not a vestige of truth in the hon. and learned Member's arithmetical justification if proper calculations are made. One further point, on which I hope to secure the support of everyone. One of the reasons why there has been, on the figures, an apparent increase is that the percentage increase in the remuneration of the men of the Navy, compared with 1914, is 114 per cent., and in the Army about 62 per cent. There is not therefore the faintest shadow of excuse for the statement which the hon. and learned Member made when comparing the expenditure of 1914 with the expenditure of 1933. The total expenditure from 1914 was £80,000,000 and in 1933 £108,000,000. These two figures together alone are sufficient to enable any fair-minded person to see at once that, having regard to the fall in the value of money, there must have been a material reduction in armaments.
I now want to refer to the speech made at the beginning of the Debate by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) and I hope he will excuse me for mentioning a correction, the importance of which he will see. The hon. Member quoted from an Italian newspaper and, by mistake, said that the author of the statement was Signor Grandi. Signor Grandi, as is well known, is the welcome and honoured Ambassador of Italy in this country, and it is my duty to say—and the hon. Member agrees with me—that it was a mistake for him to say that the author was Signor Grandi; it was not Signor Grandi. A more remarkable case of forgetfulness occurred in another portion of the hon. Member's speech. He

693
made an allegation that in some quarters of the House there had been a strong expression of views which amounted to backing Japan against China, and be selected as the particular source of these assertions the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain). The hon. Member got quite cross when he was asked to give a quotation. I will give a quotation. The occasion to which the hon. Member was referring was the Debate of 27th February, 1933, in the course of which the right hon. Member for West Birmingham made a very powerful speech which was received with general acceptance in the House. Who followed the right hon. Gentleman in that Debate? It was the hon. Member for Caerphilly.
Mr. MORGAN JONES: The speech to which I referred was that of 2nd of March, 1932.
Sir J. SIMON: I can only express my extreme surprise because the sentiments of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham in the speech I refer to dealt with the subject of the Japanese and Chinese situation. Who followed him? It was the hon. Member himself. I will only quote the opening sentence of the speech of the hon. Member for Caerphilly, who immediately followed my right hon. Friend in that Debate:
"I think the whole Committee will join with me in expressing thanks to the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken on the very valuable contribution he has made to our discussion. The right hon. Gentleman knows that I rarely find myself able to congratulate him upon the sentiments that he expresses, and it is a pleasure therefore to do so to-day."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1933; col. 71, Vol. 275.]
I can only say that I hope that the gratification was mutual.
We have also had a very able contribution from the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), and there are one or two things that I should like to say with reference to his speech. The right hon. Gentleman expresses the view that the policy and conduct of the Government in the matter of disarmament has been "inadequate throughout." My right hon. Friend left the Government at the end of September, 1932, and therefore during almost the whole of 1932 we had the full advantage of his co-operation. It is, of course, not the fact that his leaving the Cabinet had anything to do with disarmament; he left it on the fiscal issue.
694
It is natural and pardonable, perhaps, that my right hon. Friend should think that things have gone worse for the country since the country has been deprived of his aid in the Cabinet, but I must make it entirely plain that his colleagues, before they parted with him, took care to ascertain that it was not on the disarmament issue that he was obliged to leave us. As my right hon. Friend said, neither he nor I can go into our Cabinet discussions on that point. But I reflect with some consolation that my right hon. Friend was party to all the Cabinet work on the subject of disarmament right down to the moment when he left us, and that he himself took part as a delegate at Geneva. Therefore, I can only express some respectful surprise that lie now finds it proper or consistent to declare that the work for which he was responsible was "inadequate throughout."
My right hon. Friend, if he will allow me to say so, made a most acute analysis 01 one of the eight items which are listed in this Motion—the item about the international police force, the method, one might suppose, by which the collective peace system is to be sustained. If the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite really takes the view which he appears to take, as to the way to maintain the collective peace system of the world, I am not surprised that he is anxious to insist that we have not reduced our armaments. But there are indeed extremely great difficulties in the way of an international police force. An international force involves an international general staff. But, though a general staff may he international, the individuals who are on the general staff are nationals. The object of a general staff is to make secret plans in advance to meet hypothetical cases, as for example, if you have to put pressure on A, B or C, what is the best way to do it. I must say that I see some difficulty in imagining that distinguished officers coming from country A and country B and country C will continue to work out these plans in complete secrecy, so that they may be used in the only way in which the plan of a general staff can be used, without previous communication, if the occasion unhappily arose.
What exactly the international force is to be composed of, or how it is to act. I have not the least idea. Most people

695
who talk about it think it as an air force. What kind of air machine is suitable for the international police? I cannot conceive of any, except that which is condemned in advance by the first of the eight paragraphs of this Resolution, namely, the sort of machine which drops bombs from the air. I recall and repeat with great pleasure the only joke that was made at Geneva in six months, and it was made by M. Litvinoff. He was discussing this subject and he referred on the one hand to the proposal that there should be an international air force, and on the other hand to suggestions for defining the aggressor. He went on to say that he thought there were certain attractions about the plan but that experience showed that it was very difficult to define which of two people was the aggressor. So he supposed that the idea would be that the international air force would drop bombs, at the beginning of the dispute, on both sides, to make sure that the aggressor was bombed. Anybody who believes in that will vote for the Motion of Censure.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen expressed fears for the working out of a system of budgetary limitation. I do not think my right hon. Friend was quite fair in what he said about that, but after all it is since he left the Government. As a matter of fact this difficult question has been very closely and laboriously examined. There is a great deal in the point made by an hon. Member behind him (Sir B. Peto) that while we in this democratic country have a budgetary system under which we can make quite certain how much is spent on various objects, it is by no means certain that similar figures can easily be ascertained in all the other countries of the world. We have a gentleman here called the Comptroller and Auditor-General who cannot be removed except by a vote of both Houses of Parliament, and whose duty it is to see that every penny that we vote is spent for the purpose for which it is voted. How many other countries have such an official? How many countries may there not be whose expenditure on armaments is to some extent wrapped up in other votes? How do you propose to make sure that countries, some of them unhappily not members of the League of Nations like Russia, are really themselves going to comply with the strict rules which may be drawn up in theory?
696
I hope I shall not be felt to be speaking too well of my own country when I say that one of the prominent facts about this country is that when we have signed a convention which requires that we shall endeavour to apply our local law to carrying it out, such as the Drug Traffic or the White Slave Traffic Conventions, we have really and truly done our utmost to apply that law. If you are going to make a success of budgetary limitation you must be reasonably sure that everyone else will do the same. Therefore, what has been done recently at Geneva, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen may perhaps not have observed, is this. We have urged that we should at any rate make a beginning by having budgetary publicity; that we should get machinery which will bring out the facts as to how much is being spent in the different countries. All that will be necessary if you are going to have budgetary limitation. If you can get such machinery as that working so that the facts will be on the ground and you can see what you have to handle and provide for, then you will have made a very suitable beginning to budgetary limitation.
I regret very much that I must spend a few minutes in going back over some portion of the history of the Disarmament Conference especially as the popular vogue in certain quarters seems to be to say that the account which I gave last week was selective and imperfect. The suggestion is that nothing whatever happened in 1932. Really, we must get some sense of perspective in this matter. The Disarmament Convention that we are all trying to bring about is one of the most complicated tasks in the world. It does not mean that this House, or this Government, or that Opposition is prepared to proclaim certain propositions either in general or in detail. It does not mean the stringing together of seven or eight general headings such as we find in this Motion. It means detailed clauses covering the whole ground accepted by 64 States throughout the world.
When we went to Geneva in February, 1932, there had been a vast amount of work most laboriously done to clear the ground. It was surely right to see whether the scheme, which had been prepared over five and a half years, was one that could be practically applied. I regret very much that by common con-

697
sent it was found not to be as useful as some had hoped, for the reason that it did not contain a single figure, or a single date, or a single size, and because if, indeed, it had been accepted, it would have maintained the differential provisions as regards armaments of the Treaty of Versailles. It is true that, as the hon. and learned Gentleman said, the United Kingdom put forward the proposal for qualitative disarmament, but I should like to ask: Is that a proposal which is regarded as useless, futile, and misleading? Let me remind the House that some 15 months later, in May, 1933, President Roosevelt issued a Message addressed to the heads of 54 States of the world taking part in the Disarmament Conference, and this is a sentence from his Message:
"If all nations agree wholly to eliminate from their possession and use weapons which make possible successful attack, defences automatically will become impregnable, and the frontiers and independence of every nation will he secure. The ultimate object of the Disarmament Conference must be the complete elimination of all offensive weapons. The immediate objective is a substantial reduction of some of these weapons and the elimination of many others."
That is the solemn declaration of the President of the United States, in May of this year, and I should have thought it was very good common sense. I am not dealing in the language of complacency—everyone seems to think that because you do not fall into hysterics, you are complacent—but I am entitled to say that that very proposition, worked out with a good deal more detail, was laid before the Disarmament Conference by the United Kingdom Government, not in May, 1933, but in February, 1932. Then came, in July, a declaration of British disarmament policy, which is Command Paper 4,122. There may be hon. Members in this House who think that that declaration did not go far enough. I am very willing indeed to listen patiently to that criticism, but I must point out to them that it was a declaration that went a, great deal further than many other States at Geneva were prepared to go. Frankly, our object in this matter is to try to propose a basis upon which agreement is possible, and we repudiate altogether the idea which is found in the always welcome speeches of the Leader of the Opposition, that we should go on disarming, disarming, disarming, whatever other people do.
698
The proposal which we made in July, 1932, was such strong meat for the Disarmament Conference that before it could be put into a resolution, it had been whittled down into the meagre language of a resolution which anyone can find on the records, and it was that meagre shadow of the British proposal which immediately preceded Germany's first withdrawal from the conference. I do not consider, looking back, that that was in any way the fault of this country. We insisted, though Germany had gone, that an adequate scheme must contain more drastic measures. There was a declaration—the date was the 17th November, 1932, and it is Command Paper 4,189, which can be obtained in the Vote Office—and it was that declaration and the negotiations which followed it which brought Germany back into the Disarmament Conference in December, 1932.
The other criticism which is made, and which I want to clear out of the way, is this, that we have departed from the British draft of March, 1933, and substituted some other and conflicting document. This is the true relation between the British Draft and the Report of the Bureau of 14th October. We have never abandoned the British Plan; the plan, however, became so overloaded with reservations and qualifications by other people that the Conference itself determined that it could not go on until those modifications had been sifted. The Conference itself adjourned in the month of June in order to give opportunity for conversations to be held between the various interested parties. The Bureau was to meet on 14th October to hear the result of those conversations. That is not a case of substituting one draft for another. It is a complete confusion to treat it as if it were the introduction of a rival or contradictory plan. What was presented was a Report confirmed by a series of other States as to the trend of suggestions made for modification. The British Government was not the author of those modifications. The part which we played—the part which we were asked to play—was to try to arrive objectively at a judgment of what was the greatest common measure of opinion in the light of the actual situation.
Can it be disputed that the actual situation had become seriously overcast by recent German declarations? I

699
recall, and other hon. Members will, I dare say, recall, a Debate here last May—which was two months after the British Draft Convention was presented, in which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham West took part and in which, I recall, my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton) spoke for hon. Members below the Gangway on this side. What was then said by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland is exactly in point. This reflected last May, not merely the attitude of my hon. Friends there, but the general feeling in the House. He said:
"The attitude that Germany, unfortunately, adopted recently, had the most disastrous results. France, who was beginning to look at things in what the Englishman is inclined to call a more reasonable light, immediately took fright again. This country, which had growing feelings of amity and friendship towards Germany, was horrified at what took place and drew hack. We have had the speech of the Chancellor, which has indicated to the world that the attitude of Germany is not to be what we feared it might be, and we can only hope that what the speech of the Chancellor does really indicate is what the attitude of the German nation is to he, and that that speech will be translated into effect, and will not merely remain in high phrases."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th May, 1433; col. 1478, Vol. 278.]
Thereupon it was confirmed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen himself.
The real situation was this. When we were invited to consider what were the possible adjustments of this Plan which might commend themselves to a large number of Powers, we were dealing with a situation which, whether we liked it or not, had changed for the worse, and inasmuch as the only thing which we can hope to do at Geneva is to make proposals which may meet with general agreement, it is not a case of proposing a different Plan. We were merely concerned in working out for the Conference as a whole, with the assistance of others, a scheme of discussion with Germany on lines which we thought might be acceptable. I should be glad, if I had time, to point out further the complete confusion that exists if everyone imagines that we were proposing to deny Germany equality rights. It is utterly fallacious to suppose that we were imposing upon Germany in the first instance what is called a "period of trial." Of course, if supervision were
700
only going to apply to one Power, then that would be a period of probation; but it was not. All the other countries were bound by terms which were supposed to operate in the first place. Thay were not to increase their armaments to any degree; they were, in the case of continental Powers to transform their own armies with the result that France, for example, would very considerably reduce her military strength. The whole subject from beginning to end is misunderstood if it is imagined that we are trying to substitute a new draft for an old one.
Very little has been said in this Debate about what is the kernel of the Motion, namely, the eight propositions which are formulated. When I read them, I felt that I had made a mistake when I referred the hon. and learned Gentleman the other day to Gilbert and Sullivans "Mikado." The right reference would have been to another of those musical comedies, namely, "Utopia, Limited." What we are engaged in is not to strike an attitude, but to get agreement, and for that action we have to take a more sensible line. We want a Disarmament Convention. That has been our object throughout. That was the purpose of our Draft Convention. We hoped, and we still hope, to secure by negotiations in this first stage that there might be established an equality for Germany by coming down as near as possible, and perhaps very close, to the present German level. But the broad point is this. What is the alternative to international agreement? It is no agreement. And what is going to happen then? That will get us back not only behind the British Draft Convention, but behind the disarmament discussions altogether. We can only succeed by getting the world to act with us. The fundamental danger is differential treatment. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has completed only two volumes of his war recollections, we do not know yet who is responsible for the Treaty of Versailles. In the meantime, it seems to me that the only sensible basis of policy in this matter is to remember that wise French saying:
"La politique est l'art du possible."
It is no good trying to perform the impossible in order to comfort your own moral sense. What we have to do is to strive by every possible means to secure agreement, to try for the reduction of

701
world armaments to the lowest possible measure, and to secure limitation of armaments in every country of the world in an agreement into which every country voluntarily enters.
This is a Vote of Censure, though a very odd one. It is put down to get discussion much like an hon. Member gets up and says, "On a point of Order," while it is not a point of Order, and he only wants to interrupt. I am entitled to appeal to the House, and I appeal to it now, to give the Government its support in the Division, for I claim that if this record is fairly considered it will be seen that in the face of difficulties innumerable we have with constancy and courage pursued the course we will continue to pursue: that is, to leave no stone unturned to secure for the world the enormous benefit which international disarmament accomplished by world agreement would bestow upon us and our children.
Question put,
"That this House regrets that the strong desire of the country for international
agreement on disarmament has not been reflected in the policy pursued by His Majesty's Government at the Disarmament Conference and, realising the growing opinion in favour of the total disarmament of all nations throughout the world, this House calls upon the Government to submit to the Conference proposals for—

(a) the complete abandonment of all air bombing;

(b) the general abolition of all weapons at present forbidden to Germany by the Treaty of Versailles, namely, tanks, heavy artillery, capital ships, aircraft carriers, submarines, and all naval and military aircraft;

(c) the international control of civil aviation;

(d) an immediate reduction by all nations in their expenditure upon armaments;

(e) the suppression of all private manufacture and trade in armaments;

(f) international inspection and control of armaments in all countries;

(g) the creation of an international police force; and

(h) the definition of aggression on the basis of the proposals made by the Conference Committee."

The House divided: Ayes, 54; Noes, 409.

Division No. 301.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

Maxton, James

Banfield, John William

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Milner, Major James

Batey, Joseph

Groves, Thomas E.

Nathan, Major H. L.

Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

Grundy, Thomas W.

Parkinson, John Allen

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

Hicks, Ernest George

Price, Gabriel

Buchanan, George

Jenkins, Sir William

Rathbone, Eleanor

Cape, Thomas

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Smith, Tom (Normanton)

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Thorne, William James

Cove, William G.

Kirkwood, David

Tinker, John Joseph

Cripps, Sir Stafford

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Wallhead, Richard C.

Daggar, George

Lawson, John James

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

Leonard, William

Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

Davies, Rhvs John (Westhoughton)

Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

Dobbie, William

Logan, David Gilbert

Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

Edwards, Charles

Lunn, William

Wilmot, John Charles

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carn'v'n)

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

McEntee, Valentine L.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

McGovern, John

Mr. John and Mr. D. Graham.

NOES.

Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

Brass, Captain Sir William

Ainsworth, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

Albery, Irving James

Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm Ih.C.)

Broadbent, Colonel John

Alexander, Sir William

Belt, Sir Alfred L

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Bernays, Robert

Brown.Brig.-Gen.H. C(Berk.,Newb'y)

Anstruther-Gray. W. J.

Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

Browne, Captain A. C.

Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reqlnald V. K.

Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn)

Buchan, John

Aske, Sir Robert William

Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G T.

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe

Blaker, Sir Reginald

Bullock, Captain Malcolm

Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

Bossom, A. C.

Burgln, Dr. Edward Leslie

Atholl, Duchess of

Boulton, W. W.

Burton, Colonel Henry Walter

Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Butler, Richard Austen

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

Butt, Sir Alfred

Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

Cadogan, Hon. Edward

Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

Boyce, H. Leslie

Caine, G. R. Hall-

Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Bracken, Brendan

Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

Bateman, A. L.

Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

Caporn, Arthur Cecil

Carver, Major William H.

Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

Cassels, James Dale

Gower, Sir Robert

Lyons, Abraham Montagu

Castlereagh, Viscount

Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

Mabane, William

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Granville, Edgar

MacAndrew, Lt.-Col C. G. (Partick)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Hugh

Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

Chamberlain, Rt.Hon.Sir J.A.(Blrm.,W)

Graves, Marjorle

McCorquodale, M. S.

Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston)

Grenfell, E. C.(City of London)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Chapman, Col.R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

Grigg, Sir Edward

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Christie, James Archibald

Grimston, R. V.

McEwen, Captain J. H.F.

Clarry, Reginald George

Gritten, W. G. Howard

McKie, John Hamilton

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.

Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

McLean, Major Sir Alan

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

Gunston, Captain D. W.

McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

Colman, N. C. D

Guy, J. C. Morrison

Macmillan, Maurice Harold

Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian

Conant, R. J. E.

Hamilton, Sir Georqe (llford)

Magnay, Thomas

Cook, Thomas A.

Hammersley, Samuel S.

Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

Cooke, Douglas

Hanbury. Cecil

Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

Cooper, A. Duff

Hanley, Dennis A.

Marsden, Commander Arthur

Copeland, Ida

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

Courtauld, Major John Sewell

Harbord, Arthur

Mayhew, Lieut. Colonel John

Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)

Meller, Sir Richard James

Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

Cranborne, viscount

Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Craven-Ellis, William

Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

Milne, Charles

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tl'd & Chisw'k)

Crooke, J. Smedley

Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Strealham)

Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

Heneage, Lleut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Mitcheson, G. G.

Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

Hepworth, Joseph

Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres

Croom-Johnson, R. P.

Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)

Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

Cross. R. H.

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Crossley, A. C.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Moreing, Adrian C.

Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

Morgan, Robert H.

Culverwell, Cyril Tom

Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hornby, Frank

Morrison William Shephard

Davidson Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

Horobin, Ian M.

Moss, Captain H. J.

Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)

Horsbrugh, Florence

Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Howard, Tom Forrest

Munro, Patrick

Davison, Sir William Henry

Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

Murray-Phillipson, Hylton Ralph

Dawson, Sir Phillip

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.)

Nail, Sir Joseph

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Hume, Sir George Hopwood

Nall-Cain, Hon. Ronald

Denville, Alfred

Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)

Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

Dickie, John P.

Hurd, Sir Percy

Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

Dixey, Arthur C. N

Hurst, Sir Geraid B.

Nicholson, Rt. Hon. W. G (Petersf'ld)

Donner, P. W.

Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romford)

Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid

Dower, Captain A. V. G.

Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

North, Edward T.

Duckworth, George A. V.

Iveagh, Countess of

Nunn, William

Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

O'Connor, Terence James

Duggan, Hubert John

James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

O'Donovan, Dr. William James

Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

Jamieson, Douqlas

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Eales, John Frederick

Jennings, Roland

O'Neill. Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Eastwood, John Francis

Jesson, Major Thomas E.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

Eden, Robert Anthony

Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

Palmer, Francis Noel

Edmondson, Major A. J,

Johnston. J. W. (Clackmannan)

Peake, Captain Osbert

Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Pearson, William G.

Elliston, Captain George Sampson

Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

Peat, Charles U.

Elmley, Viscount

Ker, J. Campbell

Penny, sir George

Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

Percy, Lord Eustace

Emrys-Evans., P. V.

Kerr, Hamilton W.

Perkins, Walter R. D.

Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

Kimbali, Lawrence

Petherick. M.

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Knight, Holford

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Erskine-Boist, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

Knox, Sir Alfred

Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada

Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Pike, Cecll F.

Falie, Sir Bertram G.

Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

Potter, John

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Law, Sir Alfred

Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

Fleming, Edward Lascelles

Leckle, J. A.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Flint, Abraham John

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Fox, Sir Gifford

Lees-Jones, John

Procter, Major Henry Adam

Fraser, Captain Ian

Leiqh, Sir John

Purbrlck, R.

Fremantle, Sir Francis

Lennox-Boyd. A. T.

Pybus, Percy John

Fuller, Captain A. G.

Levy, Thomas

Ralkes. Henry V. A. M.

Galbraith, James Francis Wallace

Lewis, Oswald

Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

Gauit, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

Lindsay, Kenneth Martin (Kllm'rnock)

Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

Gibson, Charles Granville

Lindsay, Noel Ker

Ramsbotham, Herwald

Gillett, Sir George Masterman

Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunllffe-

Rankin, Robert

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

Ratclifte, Arthur

Gledhill, Gilbert

Lieweilln, Major John J.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Glossop, C. W. H.

Lloyd, Geoffrey

Ray, Sir William

Gluckstein, Louis Halle

Locker-Lampson. Rt. Hn. G. (Wd.Gr'n)

Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

Lockwood, John C. (Hackney. C.)

Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham-

Goff, Sir Park

Lockwood, Capt, J. H. (Shipley)

Reid, David D. (County Down)

Goldie, Noel B.

Loder, Captain J. de Vere

Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

704

705

Reid, William Allan (Derby)

Somervell, Sir Donald

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Remer, John R.

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wlck-on-T.)

Rentoul Sir Gervals S.

Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

Touche, Gordon Cosmo

Renwick, Major Gustav A.

Soper, Richard

Train, John

Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

Turton, Robert Hugh

Rosbotham, Sir Thomas

Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

Ross, Ronald D.

Spencer, Captain Richard A.

Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

Runge, Norah Cecil

Spens, William Patrick

Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield,B'tside)

Stevenson, James

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)

Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)

Watt, Captain George Steven H.

Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Wayland, Sir William A.

Salmon, Sir Isidore

Stones, James

Wells, Sydney Richard

Salt, Edward W.

Storey, Samuel

Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

Stourton, Hon. John J.

Whyte, Jardine Bell

Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

Strauss, Edward A.

Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

Savery, Samuel Servington

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

Scone, Lord

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Selley, Harry R.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

Wise, Alfred R.

Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Summersby, Charles H.

Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

Sutcliffe, Harold

Womersley, Walter James

Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A.(P'dd'gt'n,S.)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

Templeton, William P.

Wragg, Herbert

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'V'noaks)

Slater, John

Thompson, Luke

Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Thorp, Linton Theodore

Captain Margesson and Mr. Blindell.

Smithers, Waldron

The Orders of the Day were read, and postponed.

DISARMAMENT.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at a Quarter after Eleven o'Clock.

TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  TARIFF TRUCE.
  TARIFF TRUCE.
  BACON (WHOLESALE AND RETAIL PRICES).
  BACON (WHOLESALE AND RETAIL PRICES).
  CLAIMS AND RECORD OFFICE, KEW (STAFF).
  CLAIMS AND RECORD OFFICE, KEW (STAFF).
  LAND RECLAMATION SCHEME, BILSTON.
  LAND RECLAMATION SCHEME, BILSTON.
  MINISTRY OF LABOUR. BILSTON INSTRUCTIONAL CENTRE.
  MINISTRY OF LABOUR. BILSTON INSTRUCTIONAL CENTRE.
  POOR LAW RELIEF (MATERNITY BENEFIT).
  POOR LAW RELIEF (MATERNITY BENEFIT).
  TELEPHONE CHARGES (GREATER LONDON).
  TELEPHONE CHARGES (GREATER LONDON).
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
  INDIA (PENSIONS).
  INDIA (PENSIONS).
  FIRES (INQUIRIES).
  FIRES (INQUIRIES).
  FLOUR SACKS (WEIGHT).
  FLOUR SACKS (WEIGHT).
  DISARMAMENT (DRAFT CONVENTION).
  DISARMAMENT (DRAFT CONVENTION).
  ALIENS (LANDINGS WITHOUT LEAVE).
  ALIENS (LANDINGS WITHOUT LEAVE).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
FIREARMS AND IMITATION FIRE- ARMS (CRIMINAL USE) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with an Amendment.

ROAD AND RAIL TRAFFIC BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Licensing of goods vehicles.
1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, no person shall—

(a) use a goods vehicle on a road for the carriage of goods for hire or reward, or cause or permit a goods vehicle to be so used; or

(b) use a goods vehicle on a road for the carriage of goods for or in connection with any trade or business carried on by him, or cause or permit a goods vehicle to be so used,

unless there is in force a licence authorising the use of the vehicle by him for that purpose.
(2) In this Part of this Act the expression "goods vehicle" means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods or a trailer so constructed or adapted, and the expression "licence" means a licence granted under this Part of this Act.
(3) For the purposes of this Part of this Act—

(a) the delivery or collection by a person of goods sold, used or let on hire or hire purchase in the course of a trade or business carried on by him;

(b) the delivery or collection by a person of goods which have been, or are to be, subjected to a process or treatment in the course of a trade or business carried on by him;

(c) the carriage by a person engaged in agriculture in any locality of goods for or in connection with the business of agri-
168
culture carried on by another person in that locality, so long as the goods are carried in a vehicle which the person carrying them is authorised by a licence to use for the carriage of goods for or in connection with his business;

(d) the carriage of goods in a vehicle in respect of which a licence has been taken out by a manufacturer or dealer under Section nine of the Roads Act, 1920, or by a repairer under Section fifteen of the Finance Act, 1922, in accordance with the regulations applicable to that licence;

(e) the carriage of goods in a vehicle by a manufacturer, agent, or dealer, whilst the vehicle is being used by him for demonstration purposes;

shall not be deemed to constitute a carrying of the goods for hire or reward.
(4) It is hereby declared that, for the purposes of this Part of this Act, the performance by a local or public authority of its functions shall be deemed to be the carrying on of a business.
(5) This section shall not apply—

(a) to the use of a vehicle (including a trailer drawn thereby) in any case where the excise duty in respect of the vehicle under section thirteen of the Finance Act, 1920, is chargeable at one of the rates applicable to vehicles specified in subparagraph (a) or sub-paragraph (d) of paragraph 4, or in sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph 5, of the Second schedule to the Finance Act, 1920, as amended by the Finance Act, 1933, or any subsequent enactment, for any of the agricultural or other ancillary purposes for which exclusively the vehicle must be used I if the duty is to remain chargeable at that rate;

(b) to the use for any purpose other than the carriage of goods for hire or reward of a trailer when drawn by a vehicle constructed solely for the carriage of not more than seven passengers exclusive of the driver and their effects;

(c) to the use of a tramcar or trolley vehicle in pursuance of the powers of any special Act of Parliament or any order having the force of an Act;

(d) to the use of a public service vehicle as a stage carriage, express carriage, or contract carriage in pursuance of a licence granted under the Road Traffic Act, 1930;

(e) to the use of a hackney carriage as defined in Section four of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act. 1888, when being used as such a carriage;

(f) to the use of a vehicle for road cleansing, road watering or the collection or disposal of refuse, night-soil or the contents of cesspools, or for the purposes of the enactments relating to weights and measures or the sale of food and drugs by a local authority or any person acting in pursuance of a contract with a local authority;

(g) to the use of a vehicle for police, fire brigade or ambulance purposes;

(h) to the use of a vehicle for towing a disabled motor vehicle or for removing goods from a disabled vehicle to a place of safety;

169

(i) to the use of a vehicle for miners' rescue purposes under the provisions of Section eighty-five of the Coal Mines Act, 1911;

(j) to the use of a vehicle for any purpose specified in regulations, or the use for any purpose of a vehicle of any class or description so specified.

(6) If any person uses a vehicle, or causes or permits a vehicle to be used, in contravention of this section, ho shall be guilty of an offence under this Part of this Act.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY)THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY) moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "carriage of goods" in paragraph (a), and insert:
(" (a,) for hire or reward; or
(b) for or in connection with any trade or business carried on by him;
except under a licence."
The noble Marquess said: This Amendment consists of a simplification of subsection (1) of Clause 1. The words "or cause or permit a goods vehicle to be so used" have been omitted both in paragraph (a) and in paragraph (b). This is rendered possible by the precise definition of "use" which is contained in the next Government Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 12, leave out from ("goods") to the end of the subsection, and insert the said new words.—(The Marquess of Londoaderry.)
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I shall put that the words from "goods" in line 12 to the end of page 1 stand part.
LORD ILIFFE,who had an Amendment on the Paper to leave out paragraph (b) of subsection (i) said: I am going to ask your Lordships to disagree with this Amendment and so clear the way for the next Amendment which is on the Order Paper. I desire to oppose this Amendment because it requires the private carrier, who does not carry goods for hire or reward, to be licensed. I desire, and I hope your Lordships will agree with me, to remove the C licences altogether from the scheme of licensing under the Bill. The holder of a C licence is a private carrier; that is, a merchant or manufacturer who uses a goods vehicle exclusively for the purpose of his own business. The owner of an A licence is a public carrier who uses a vehicle only for carrying goods for hire or reward, and the holder of a B licence is a person who uses a vehicle partly for his own business
170
and partly to carry goods for hire or reward. No fewer than 75 per cent. of the total number of the goods vehicles on the road come within the C category. The licensing authority has no control whatever over the number of licences issued. A holder may obtain just as many licences for as many vehicles as he chooses. The Royal Commission on Transport recommended that the licensing system should not extend to those vehicles, and that is a very important point.
Furthermore the C licence is quite unnecessary for the enforcement of the security conditions in Clause 8 of the Bill; that is, as to the fitness of a vehicle and the safety limits of the hours of duty. These are all of them statutory requirements which, if not observed, can be enforced by prosecution and by fine. The safety of the vehicle can be ensured by examiners under the clauses of the Bill because their powers extend to all vehicles, including exempted vehicles, and are not limited in any way to licensed vehicles, and the records which the C licence holder is required to keep involve a good deal of additional clerical work and in my opinion really serve no useful purpose whatever. The public expense is very greatly increased by including these additional quarter of a million licences. Under the Bill the Government have seen fit to exempt the farmer's lorry from licensing and I can see no reason why this exemption should be denied to the grocer's vehicle or the brewer's or the corn merchant's or any other similar type of vehicle. The main objection to a C licence is that it throws an unnecessary burden on the trade of the country and, as I have already pointed out to your Lordships, the Royal Commission on Transport was against including these vehicles, which are really private vehicles only used for the carriage of goods for the business of the licensee and not used in any way for hire or reward. The Royal Commission on Transport, as I say, was against it and it seems to me really to be rather unnecessary to add this further complication to an already very complicated world.
LORD SANDHURST: May I be allowed to add a few words to what the noble Lord, Lord Iliffe, has said, because I am not in the same position as most of your Lordships? I am in the position of one who has had control of a vehicle

171
which would come under a C licence. In other words, I have been a small trader—admittedly a very small trader. I was in business up in Scotland and, for the purpose of that business and in order to attract to it the custom of the farmers of the district, I initiated a system of petrol supply by which I not only delivered petrol to the farmer at his farm, but delivered both petrol and paraffin to the farmer's tractor on the field where it was ploughing. Under the provisions of this Bill it would have been necessary for me to have had a C licence for that vehicle, and every time I. received a telephone message from the farmer to say that his tractor mechanic had omitted to fill the tractor with paraffin and that he wanted another four gallons to enable him to carry on his work, it would have been necessary when I sent out the motor cycle and side-car, which I had specially adapted for the purpose of carrying that paraffin to the tractor in the field, for a clerk to make a note of all the particulars of that journey. My profit on that paraffin would have disappeared. In fact, it would not have been worth my while to do the work at all. I submit that in that way C licences will cause very great hardship.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH): The noble Lord, Lord iffe, has made a speech which he would naturally have made upon his own Amendment which follows and he did so in order to safeguard himself. The effect of his Amendment would be to exempt private carriers entirely from the early provisions of this Bill. I hope your Lordships will not agree to that Amendment. It is perfectly true that the Royal Commission on Transport did not recommend that what are called ancillary users should be brought under this provision. On the other hand, the Salter Conference was unanimous in recommending that they should come under the provision for C licences. They recommended that they should be given licences freely, but at the same time they considered it was quite essential for the proper regulation of traffic upon the road that they should come under these provisions of the Bill.
It is really absolutely essential that these private carriers should be subject not only to the safety provisions, but also
172
to the provisions of Clause 14, which deals with the keeping of records as to hours of work, journeys, loads, and various other things of that kind. I think your Lordships will see that, in view of the fact that between 70 and 80 per cent. of the goods vehicles on the road are goods vehicles which belong to these private owners, it is quite essential that they should come under these provisions. I should like to make a further point that it is notorious that some of the worst offenders in matters of the kind I have indicated are the small operators who under the provisions of the Bill would be regarded as private users and would be required to take out C licences. I therefore most earnestly beg your Lordships to pass the Government Amendment and not to accept the Amendment which follows because I think otherwise the whole structure of this Bill will be upset.
LORD ILIFFE: In view of the statement of the noble Earl I do not propose to proceed with my Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to insert after subsection (2):
"(3) When a goods vehicle is being used on a road for the carriage of goods, the driver of the vehicle, if it belongs to him or is in his possession under an agreement for hire, hire purchase or loan, and in any other case the person whose agent or servant the driver is, shall, for the purposes of this Part of this Act be deemed to be the person by whom the vehicle is being used.
(4) Where at any time goods are carried in a goods vehicle, being a vehicle which has been let on hire by the person who at the time of the carriage of the goods is within the meaning of this Part of this Act the user of the vehicle, the goods shall be deemed to be carried by that person for hire or reward."
The noble Marquess said: This Amendment consists of the addition of two new subsections which are intended to remove any ambiguity as to the person who is "using" a vehicle under a licence, within the meaning of the Bill. Without some such precise definition it would not be possible to fix responsibility for the observance of the conditions attached to a licence. The first of the two new subsections provides that the driver if he is the owner, or has effective possession, of the vehicle, and in any other case the person whose agent or servant the driver is, shall be deemed to be the person by whom the vehicle is being used. In other

173
words, the driver if he is the owner of the vehicle, and otherwise the person who employs the driver, is regarded as the person in effective control of the vehicle, and therefore responsible for its proper operation under a licence. The second subsection is declaratory in character. It states in effect that a person who lets out on hire a vehicle with a driver in order to carry someone else's goods shall be deemed to be carrying goods for hire or reward. This point is of importance in the delimitation of the operations that can be carried out under A and B licences on the one hand and C licences on the other. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 11, at end insert the said new subsections—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 28, after ("his") insert ("agricultural").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two are drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 2, line 29, leave out ("in respect of which a licence has been") and insert ("which is being used under, and in accordance with the regulations applicable to, a licence").
Page 2, line 33, leave out from ("1922") to the end of line 35.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (5), after paragraph (b), to insert:
"(c) to the use of a vehicle constructed for the carriage of not more than seven passengers and adapted or equipped for the carriage of samples of goods by a commercial traveller or agent where no goods except samples are carried in the vehicle and where the weight of the goods so carried does not exceed three hundredweights."
The noble Earl said: I hope your Lord-ships will allow me to give a few reasons why this Amendment comes to be moved. This point was debated first of all in Standing Committee and on the Report stage in another place, and was left undetermined. It relates to the commercial traveller's ear, which in some cases would
174
be a "goods vehicle" within the definition on page 2, line 7—namely, "a motor vchicle constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods." The difficulty arises out of the expression "adapted for use." The Amendment proposes to exempt from the licensing system under the Bill a private car used by a commercial traveller for the carriage of samples, and adapted for that purpose, with a locker or cabinet for convenience in handling his samples. Your Lordships have no doubt seen many vehicles of this description on the roads to-day.
If some Amendment of this kind is not made, the vehicle is liable to be treated as a goods vehicle and would require a C licence. The point was raised in Standing Committee by several Amend-ments, and the Minister made several points with regard to it in another place. He said that he was sure. that the mere fact of putting some racks to carry dresses in the back of a private car would not bring that car within the definition of a "goods vehicle," and therefore would not bring it within the scope of the Bill, and there could be no need for apprehension that a traveller who merely fitted up the back of a private car for the carriage of his samples would bring himself within the scope of the Bill. He then said:
"I will certainly tell the Committee that we are at one on this, that we all want to exclude from the operation of the Bill the man who merely puts samples in the back of his private car, and, although I am advised that the position is clear now, I will make quite certain, between now and the Report stage, that in fact a case of that kind is covered."
Then he made another promise:
"The promise that I give is with regard to the ordinary passenger car which may have been adapted for the carriage of samples. I give no promise whatsoever with regard to the ordinary goods vehicle which may or may not be said to be adapted for the carriage of samples, but which can in fact be used for the carriage of goods in the ordinary way."
The difficulty in this connection, I submit, 'arises from the fact that, instructions have been given to local authorities who issue motor car licences that private ears adapted for the ea triage of goods (which would include the rail for dresses or the locker or boxes) are to be classed as goods vehicles for the purposes of

175
licence duty. The Minister admitted that this was not the intention. His objection to the Amendments moved in standing Committee was that they went a very long way beyond that, and would have enabled any one to have a ten-ton lorry and escape the provisions of the Act by calling the goods "samples." This objection is met in the Amendment now proposed, by the words "constructed for the carriage of not more than seven passengers." This is the ordinary definition of a private car. On Report stage in the House of Commons, when this Amendment was moved, the Minister resisted it but promised to look into the matter again. Unfortunately, the Bill does not seem to have dealt with it. The Bill carries its own definition on page 2, and the licensing authority under the Bill may take a different view from the Inland Revenue authorities who control the issue of the Excise licences under the Finance Act. The Amendment was originally proposed in order to give effect to the Minister's promises already referred to, and it was framed with the definite object of limiting the weight of samples which might he carried.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 25, at end, insert the said new paragraph (c).—(Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I hope your Lordships will not accept this Amendment. The view of the Government is that the proper test in cases of this kind should be whether the vehicle in question is properly taxable as a private car or not. The definition of "goods vehicle" in subsection (2) of Clause 1 is "a motor vehicle constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods." Adaptation is a question of degree. If the adaptation results in what is substantially a goods carrying vehicle the vehicle should be treated as such and not as a private car. The definition of "goods vehicle" in the present Bill is in this respect the same as the definition used in the Finance Acts for the purpose of the assessment of Excise licence duty. If a vehicle, used by a commercial traveller, has been properly assessed as a motor car in the "horse power" class it would not be a goods vehicle for the purposes of the present Bill. On this 'and other similar points it is desirable that the Finance Acts and the present Bill should
176
march together and the Amendment is on these grounds undesirable.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved to insert after paragraph (b) in subsection 5:
"(c) to the use of a vehicle constructed and used for the purpose of a caravan or moveable dwelling and for no other purpose."
The noble Earl said: This Amendment is to cover the case of the caravan. The Minister promised in Standing Committee in the House of Commons to consider the point raised there, and said he accepted the principle that a vehicle generally used as a caravan dwelling should not be subject to the provisions of the Bill. The concluding words that I have submitted have been added to meet the risk of evasion, but the Amendment, I submit, is necessary, for otherwise you will have the curious situation that a trailer caravan, drawn by a private car, will be exempted, while a motor car which is a caravan will not be exempted, and because it carries furniture may be classed as a goods vehicle.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 25, at end, insert the said new paragraph (c).—(Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I do not think this Amendment is at all necessary. If the vehicle is in fact used as a caravan or moveable dwelling and for no other purpose it is perfectly clear that it is not used in connection with any trade or business, and therefore would not come under the licensing provisions of the Bill. If, on the other hand, the vehicle is a caravan which (for example) carries goods for sale, then it would, and should, fall within the licensing provisions of the Bill. I do not think the instance that the noble Earl suggested is one which could possibly lead to any misunderstanding.
EARL HOWE: I cannot quite follow the explanation of the noble Earl. I do not know whether he has actually dealt with the point, as to a four-wheeled vehicle used as a caravan and manœuvring under its own opwer.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: That would not be a goods vehicle used in connection with any trade or business, and therefore would not come under the provisions of this Bill.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (1), after paragraph (e), to insert "(f) to the use of a vehicle for the purposes of funerals." The noble Marquess said: The effect of this Amendment is to exempt motor hearses from the licensing provisions of the Bill. These vehicles are technically goods vehicles, but their use is by their very nature restricted and highly specialised. The Minister undertook in the House of Commons to provide for their exemption from the licensing provisions of the Bill if there were any general desire in the industry to this effect. Although the industry is not unanimous on the point the British Undertakers' Association have by a substantial majority of their members asked for the exemption. The vehicles will, however, always he liable to inspection under the provisions of Clause 16 and they will have to conform with the general law and regulations as to the construction and use of motor vehicles.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 37, at end insert the said paragraph.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two Amendments are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 3, line 33, after ("use") insert ("by a local authority, or a person acting in pursuance of a contract with a local authority")
Page 4, line 1, leave out from ("drugs") to the end of line 3.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
EARL HOWEhad on the Paper an Amendment in subsection (5), after paragraph (g), to insert:
"(h) to the use of a vehicle constructed or adapted for use as a hearse and used for that purpose only."
The noble Earl said: This point has already been covered by the Minister's Amendment. Therefore I do not move.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 16, leave out ("or causes or permits a vehicle to be used").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:
Classes of licences.
2.—(1) Licences shall be of the following classes:—

(a) public carriers' licences:

(b) limited carriers' licences:

(c) private carriers' licences.

(2) A public carrier's licence (in this Part of this Act referred to as "an A licence") shall entitle the holder thereof to use the authorised vehicles for the carriage of goods for hire or reward or for the carriage of goads for or in connection with his business as a carrier of goods, or, in the case of a person operating a canal, dock, or harbour undertaking, for or in connection with that undertaking subject to the condition that no vehicle which is for the time being an authorised vehicle shall be used for the carriage of goods for or in connection with any other trade or business carried on by him except such storage or warehousing of goods as may be incidental to his business as a carrier.
(3) A limited carrier's licence (in this Part of this Act referred to as "a B licence") shall entitle the holder thereof to use the authorised vehicles, as he thinks fit from time to time, either for the carriage of goods for or in connection with any trade or business carried on by him, or, subject to any conditions attached to the licence, for the carriage of goods for hire or reward.
(4) A private carrier's licence (in this Part of this Act referred to as "a C licence") shall entitle the holder thereof to use the authorised vehicles for the carriage of goods for or in connection with any trade or business carried on by him, subject to the condition that no vehicle which is for the time being an authorised vehicle shall be used for the carriage of goods for hire or reward.
(5) In this Part of this Act the expression "authorised vehicle" means in relation to any licence a vehicle authorised to be used thereunder.
(6) The vehicles authorised to be used under a licence shall be—

(a) such motor vehicles, being vehicles belonging to the holder of the licence or in his possession under a hire purchase agreement, as are specified in the licence;

(b) such number of motor vehicles, or of motor vehicles of any particular type or types hired by the holder of the licence, as is specified in the licence;

(c) such number of trailers, or of trailers of any particular type or types belonging to the holder of the licence, or in his possession under a hire purchase agreement, or hired by him, as is specified in the licence;

(d) in the case of a C licence, any motor vehicle belonging to the holder of the licence or in his possession under a hire purchase agreement, but acquired by him, or coining into his possession under such an agreement, only after the grant of the licence:

Provided that a motor vehicle which is acquired by or comes into the possession of the holder of a C licence after the grant

179
thereof shall cease to be an authorised vehicle on the expiration of one month from the date on which it was acquired by him or came into his possession unless before the expiration of that period the holder delivers to the licensing authority a notice in the prescribed form of the vehicle having been acquired by him or having come into his possession.
(7) A motor vehicle specified in a licence shall not, while it remains so specified, he capable of being effectively specified in any other licence.
(8) A person may be the holder of two or more licences whether of the same class or of different classes.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (2), after "carrier of goods," to insert "whether by road transport or any other kind of transport." The noble Marquess said: The object of this Amendment is to make clear that the expression "carrier of goods" is not confined to a single form of transport.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 27, at end insert the said words.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "or, in the case of a person operating a canal, dock, or harbour undertaking, for or in connection with that undertaking subject to the condition" and to insert "but it shall be a condition of the licence." The noble Marquess said: This is a drafting Amendment, designed to remove an element of obscurity which resulted from the interpolation in lines 23 and 29 of the reference to canals, docks and harbours. The interpolation was made by way of an Amendment in the House of Commons.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 28, leave out from the beginning of the line to ("that") in line 30 and insert the said new words.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two Amendments are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 4, line 35, at end insert:
("In relation to a licence held by a person carrying on a canal, clock or harbour undertaking, the reference in this subsection to use of vehicles for the carriage of goods for or in connection with the business of the holder of a licence as a carrier of goods, shall include a reference to the use of vehicles for the carriage of goods for, or in connection with, that undertaking ")
Page 5, line 1, leave out ("attached") and insert ("which the licensing authority, in the exercise of his discretion to attach conditions to a B licence, may attach")—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD COZENS-HARDY LORD COZENS-HARDY moved, in subsection (4), after "him," to insert "or in association with him." The noble Lord said: In introducing the Bill the noble Marquess mentioned as one of its objects the prevention of overcrowding in the transport industry. Without an Amendment to some such effect as this there would certainly be a tendency to increase quite unnecessarily the number of vehicles on the road. Many large businesses which are not merely holding companies have other companies closely associated with them, sometimes even occupying part of the one works. Very often it is convenient for one of such companies to perform various services for both. Transport is one of those services, and it can often be economically provided by the larger company. Under the Bill as it stands the larger company must cease to use its lorries to help its associate unless the larger company forfeits the right to a C licence. The case is not answered by saying that the larger company can get an A or a B licence in such cases. The C licences admittedly have advantages, and there is no reason why the company should be deprived of those advantages. The larger company would, of course, be carrying goods which technically were not "for or in connection with" its own trade, and it would technically also be carrying goods "for hire or reward."
There are cases of this kind in which associated companies carry on a trade within the works of a larger company, enjoying the common facilities of the works. The larger company may possibly manage the business of the associate without even holding a controlling interest in it. I think your Lordships will agree that in such cases a C licence should be applicable, and it is to permit this that I have put down this Amendment. I have tried in a subsequent Amendment to define "associated trade" so as to confine it to genuine cases where the transport of goods in common between the two companies is only an incident of their association, and your Lordships will observe that one of the requirements of the Amendment is that

181
the holder of the C licence must either hold a substantial interest in the associated company—and I should be prepared to accept 51 per cent. as a definition of "substantial interest"—or the holder of the licence must be actually managing the manufacturing operations of the associated company. I have had some discussion with the Minister's advisers on these points, and I have endeavoured in this, which is a revised, form of the Amendment, to meet some of the objections which have been raised. Unfortunately, time has not permitted the discussion of the Amendment in this revised form, but I hope that the noble Marquess will be able to indicate acceptance of the principle, if not of the actual wording.
I submit that this is really a question which has not been fully considered by the Government. It would appear that an easy course has been adopted, with the result that the Bill as it stands puts obstacles in the way of arrangements of this kind, which are economical to the associated companies and cannot in any way defeat the objects of the Bill. I understand that the Government are prepared to accept an Amendment standing later on the Paper in the name of my noble friend Lord Melchett, which brings 90 per cent. subsidiaries within the C licence, but that does not in any way cover the cases that I have in mind. I should be interested to know why there is charm in 90 per cent. as compared with 51 per cent. Why should evasion be feared with 51 per cent. and not feared with 90 per cent.? Then there is the other class of case, where the business of the associated company is managed by the holder of a C licence, the business being probably inside his own works. Why should the advantages and economies of a C licence be denied to the holder in those cases? Any attempt on the part of a C licence holder to use the associated company for carrying on the business of an ordinary carrier is prevented by paragraph (b) (i) of my later Amendment. If the noble Marquess does not feel able to accept the Amendment in its present form, I would press for real consideration of this question. The cases I have referred to are of real importance and should, I think, be met in some way. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 7, after ("him") insert ("or in association with him").—(Lord Cozens-Hardy.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Lord can be quite sure it would give me no satisfaction or pleasure to refuse any Amendment he puts forward, but I am bound to say after having listened to his speech, and with every desire to meet him in any way, I have not been able to find any special reason why we should depart from the attitude we took up when he had previous conversation with the advisers of the Ministry of Transport. I quite follow what the noble Lord said. He is averse from what I may call the rigidity of the Bill, but I think he will agree with me when I say that the definition he makes in the word "association" is very loose, and I go so far as to say there might be very little connection between company No. 1 and the other companies in existence under the same holding. We have agreed, as the noble Lord is aware, to accept the Amendment which has been put down in the name of my noble friend Lord Melchett, and that covers the ground where there is 90 per cent. of the control in the hands of the holding company.
I did not gather from the speech of the noble Lord that he had any instance in mind. It seems to me that if there are only one or two companies that is a case on which we might have come discussion with the noble Lord, but if there is an association which extends over a very wide area the loose connection of all these companies might mean there was very little connection between one and the other, and that would be no reason for granting one C licence to the holding company as representing all the others. I think the noble Lord will also agree with me that it would place the licensing authority in a very difficult position, and impose responsibilities on them which we should not ask them to assume. In these circumstances I can only say to the noble Lord that, while we are prepared to accept the provisions of the new clause to follow Clause 10, as far as I can see we cannot possibly accept the Amendment which has been moved.
LORD COZENS-HARDY: The noble Marquess did not deal with the ether side of the Amendment, which is the case

183
where the holder actually manages, so to say, inside his own works, business on behalf of the associated company.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: It is very difficult to legislate for every particular case. No doubt there are special cases. The general rule, I am instructed by the Ministry of Transport, is covered by the clause which has been put down by Lord Melchett. Beyond that there are special cases which I quite agree are matters for discussion, but as far as I know the noble Lord has not put forward a ease which has had the effect of convincing those who are advising me in the matter.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of subsection (4), to insert:
"Notwithstanding anything in this part of this Act, the licensing authority may. in a case of emergency and subject to such conditions as ho thinks fit to impose, authorise the holder of a C licence to use an authorised vehicle for the carriage of goods fur any person to whom he lets the vehicle if the authority is satisfied that the needs of that person cannot conveniently be met from other sources."
The noble Marquess said: As the Bill is now drafted the holder of a C licence (and indeed any member of the public) is entitled to let out a goods vehicle on hire as a chattel (that is, without driver), the control of the vehicle thereby passing entirely to the hirer and the vehicle being "used" under the hirer's licence. The holder of a C licence, however, would not be able to let out a vehicle on hire with driver as this would constitute using a vehicle for the carriage of goods for hire or reward. This will be found in the declaratory Amendment in the form of the new subsection (4). The proposed Amendment would enable the licensing authority, in case of emergency and subject to such conditions as he may think fit to impose, to authorise the holder of a, C licence to let on hire an authorised vehicle with driver if the licensing authority is satisfied that the needs of the prospective hirer cannot conveniently be met from other sources. I think it will appear to your Lordships that this degree of latitude is desirable as otherwise the holder of a C licence would be unable to assist another C licence holder whose vehicle was temporarily out of action. Generally speaking, however, the
184
letting of vehicles out on hire with driver would be the prerogative of the holders of A. and B licences and could only be carried out under licences of those classes.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 9, insert the said new words. —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to omit paragraphs (b) and (c) in subsection (6) and insert:
"(b) motor vehicles from time to time in the possession of the holder of the licence under an agreement for hire or loan, not exceeding at any time such maximum number as is specified in the licence;
(c) trailers from time to time belonging to the holder of the licence or in his possession under an agreement for hire purchase, hire or loan, not exceeding at any time such maximum number as is specified in the licence."
The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is little more than drafting and rearrangement. It makes clear, however, that the number of vehicles to be specified is a maximum, and it also brings in vehicles on loan as well as vehicles on hire.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 19, leave out lines 19 to 27 and insert the said new paragraphs.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection 6 (d), after "C licence" to insert "subject to the provisions of the next succeeding subsection." The noble Marquess said: This is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 28, after ("licence") insert ("subject to the provisions of the next succeeding subsection").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in the proviso in subsection (6), to leave out "Provided that a motor vehicle" and insert:
"For the purposes of paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) of this subsection, different types of motor vehicles or different types of trailers, as the case may be, may be distinguished in a licence and a maximum number may be specified in the licence for vehicles or trailers of each type.
(7) A motor vehicle"
The noble Marquess said: This is a consequential Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 34, leave out ("Provided that a motor vehicle") and insert the said new words.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 35, after ("or") insert ("under a hire purchase agreement").(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Duration of licences.
3.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the period for which a licence may be granted (in this section referred to as "the currency period") shall be—

(a) in the case of au A licence, two years;

(b) in the case of a B licence, one year;

(c) in the case of a C licence, three years,

from the date on which it is expressed to take effect.
(2) The Minister may prescribe the dates in the year on which licences, other than licences hereinafter referred to as short-term licences, shall expire, and a licence shall, unless previously revoked, continue in force up to and including that one of the prescribed dates which occurs next before the expiration of the currency period thereof, or up to and including such earlier date, being one of the prescribed dates, as the licensing authority may, at the time of granting the licence, for special reasons, determine.
(3) With a view to enabling goods vehicles to be used temporarily—

(a) for the purposes of a seasonal business;

(b) for the purposes of the execution of a particular piece of work;

(c) pending the determination of an application for the grant of a licence for the currency period; or

(d) for any other purpose of limited duration,

a licence (in this Part of this Act referred to as a "short-term licence") may be granted for a period less than the currency period, but not exceeding three months.
(4) If on the date of the expiration of a licence, other than a short-term licence, proceedings are pending before the licensing authority on an application by the holder of that licence for the grant to him of a new licence in substitution for the existing licence, the existing licence shall continue in force until the application is disposed of, without prejudice, however, to the exercise in the meantime of the powers of suspension and revocation conferred by this Part of this Act.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved in subsection 3 to leave out paragraph (c). The noble Marquess said:
This Amendment and the three succeeding ones are partly drafting and partly designed to assist the licensing authority to spread out the work of licensing more or less evenly throughout the year. With this object in view it is provided that on a first application for an A licence a short-term licence may be granted, pending the determination of the application, for a period not exceeding twelve months, and in the case of a B licence six months. I think your Lordships will understand that without some such provision all A licences and B licences would start from the same date and fall to be renewed at that date in succeeding years. The short-term licences envisaged in the new subsection (4) would not invalidate the claim of an applicant for an A licence or for a B licence in respect of his "standard year" tonnage on the first licence granted for the full currency period.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 28, leave out paragraph (c).—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two Amendments are consequential drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 6, line 31, leave out from ("licence") to ("may") in line 32, and insert ("of any class")
Page 6, line 33, after ("months") insert ("and any licence granted under this or the next following subsection is in this Part of this Act referred to as a short-term licence'").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after subsection (3), to insert:
"(4) Where an application has been made for a licence for the currency period, the licensing authority, if for administrative reasons he deems it desirable so to do, may, pending the determination of the application, grant to the applicant a short term licence for a period not exceeding—

(a) in the case of a first application for an A licence, twelve months;

(b) in the case of a first application for a B licence, six months; and

(c) in any other case, three months, but any short-term licence so granted shall cease to have effect as from the date on

187
which a licence granted for the currency period is expressed to take effect."

The noble Marquess said: This Amendment deals with the same point as we have already been discussing.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 33, at end insert the said new subsection (4).— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
LORD ILIFFE LORD ILIFFE moved to amend the proposed Amendment by inserting at the end: "Provided that nothing in this subsection shall interfere with or affect the grant of a licence under the provisions of subsection (2) or subsection (3) of Section seven of this Act." The noble Lord said: This Amendment appears to me to conflict with subsections (2) and (3) of Clause 7, under which, on the first application within six months after the passing of the Act, applicants for A and B licences are entitled to receive their first licences for two years and one year respectively, and no objection can be made under Clause 10. In order to safeguard Clause 7 (2) and (3) I propose this Amendment.
Amendment to proposed Amendment moved—
At end insert the said proviso.— Lord Iliffe.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I hardly think that the Amendment which the noble Lord has proposed is necessary. The object of the Amendment which I proposed is to relieve the licensing authority in a work which will be very heavy in any case; but I will promise the noble Lord that if there is a requirement for the Amendment which he has proposed, I will look into it between this stage and the next stage; and at the same time I can also assure the noble Lord that that stage will be taken very shortly.
EARL HOWE: May I ask the noble Marquess whether he can give a definite assurance that there is really nothing in the Amendment which he has proposed which is intended to vary the conditions of A and B licences? I think if we could be given an assurance to that effect, it would have a considerable effect upon the people for whom I speak.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: As far as I know, no, but I will look into that before the next stage.
Amendment to proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4:
Licensing authority 20 & 21 Geo. 5 c. 43.
4.— (1) The person who is the Chairman of the Traffic Commissioners for any traffic area within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, and any person for the time being appointed by the Minister under subsection (7) of Section sixty-three of that Act to act as deputy to the Chairman, shall have the power and be charged with the duty of granting licences under this Part of this Act, and is in this Part of this Act referred to as "the licensing authority."
(2) This section shall have effect as respects the Metropolitan traffic area with the substitution of a reference to the Traffic Commissioner for that area for the reference to the Chairman of the Traffic Commissioners.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendments to this clause are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 7, line 5, leave out ("and") and insert ("including")
Page 7, line 6, leave out ("under subsection (7) of Section sixty-three of that Act").— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5:
Procedure on applications for licences.
5.— (1) A person applying for a licence shall submit to the licensing authority a statement in the prescribed form—
(2) A person applying for a licence shall give to the licensing authority any information which he may reasonably require for the discharge of his duties in relation to the application and, in particular, an applicant for an A licence or a B licence, shall, if required by the licensing authority, submit to the licensing authority in the prescribed form— (a) such particulars as the licensing authority may require with respect to any business as a carrier of goods for hire or reward carried on by the applicant at any time before the making of the application and of the rates charged by the applicant;
LORD DE CLIFFORD LORD DE CLIFFORD moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (2), to leave out "and of the rates charged by the applicant." The noble Lord said: I am moving this Amendment because when I

189
raised this point on Second Reading, the noble Earl who replied did not give me any answer. I still fail to see why the rate charged by the applicant should be laid before the Tribunal. It should be well noted that this Bill gives no power to control rates for road transport. The Attorney-General said, in the House of Commons Standing Committee, that there is no intention of prying into the future or controlling the rate to be charged in the future. I do not see why then it should be necessary for the licensing authority to acquire particulars of the rates charged. Rates are definitely excluded from the conditions of a licence in haulage business where rate cutting has been most marked. I think that road hauliers may justly fear that if this requirement is laid upon them, it may be used detrimentally to their business.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 10, leave out ("and of the rates charged by the applicant").— (Lord Clifford.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. I think that it is very important that the licensing authority should have this information. In fact, I think that it is essential that he should have it in order that he may come to a conclusion as to whether or not there is a genuine demand for this particular kind of traffic in his area. It is essential for him to know that for this particular reason: it is quite possible that a fictitious demand, as it were, might have been created by the fact that particular carrier was quoting rates below those quoted by the general run of carriers in that particular district, and he might quite easily, having done that, come and say: "The demand upon me is very great and I ought to have an additional number of licences." It is perfectly clear that if an application of this kind is objected to, the objectors will make allegations of this kind if they are true, and therefore, in order to enable the licensing authority to come to a fair conclusion, I maintain that it is absolutely necessary that he should have evidence with regard to rates. I hope your Lordships will not accept this Amendment.
LORD SANDHURST: My Lords, I am afraid that the answer that has been given does not entirely convince me, because if the objectors are going to raise
190
the question of the rates which are going to be charged, they can surely make it necessary that, in order that he shall receive his licences, the applicant shall produce the rates. If he does not agree to produce them he will be in rather the same position as the defendant in a criminal charge who does not go into the witness box and the case will be taken by default. I submit that this Amendment is clearly essential to save the perfectly honest contractor from placing his business and his business figures in the hands of his opponents.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 5 agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to insert the following new clause after Clause 5:
"No information obtained under the provisions of the foregoing section shall, unless the owner of the undertaking agrees thereto, be made public and any person who obtains any information in the exercise of the powers contained in the said section shall be required to make a declaration of secrecy in such form as may be prescribed by the Minister and any person who discloses any information so obtained by him shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds."
The noble Viscount said: Under the Coal Mines Act there is a penalty provision for anybody who in the course of his official duties discloses any information so obtained by him. That, of course, is a very serious offence under the Coal Mines Act. This is not quite so serious but there is a fear amongst applicants for licences that their rates may be disclosed to their competitors. I have taken Section 8 of the Coal Mines Act as far as possible as my model, but I have not included the provision contained in that section for imprisonment. I have made it simply a matter for a fine. If competitors are advised by officials what the rates of their competitors are then I think that some provision should be put in to make it a punishable offence. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 5. insert the said new clause — (Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The clause which my noble friend suggests requires that any information obtained under the provisions of Clause 5 of the Bill shall be kept secret, subject to a penalty for any person who discloses

191
any information so obtained. The clause is unworkable in its present form and I think your Lordships will agree that in any ease it goes too far. The information to be supplied under subsection (1) of Clause 5 will have to be published in the proceedings of the licensing authority in order to give other operators an opportunity of lodging objections. If the scope of the new clause were limited to the information to be supplied under subsection (2) of Clause 5 there would be something to be said for it. On the other hand similar information is required to be furnished to the Traffic Commissioners by operators of public service vehicles under the provisions of Section 76 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, and no conditions as to the secret or confidential character of the information is attached in that Act. It is obviously undesirable that there shall be a difference in practice between applications on the part of operators of public service vehicles under the Act of 1930 and. applications by operators of goods vehicles under the present Bill: particularly as the Chairman of the Traffic Commissioners under the 1930 Act is the licensing authority under the present Bill.
Again, the information furnished to the licensing authority under subsection (2) of Clause 5 may be relevant to the decision reached by the authority as to the grant or refusal of a licence, or any condition that may be attached thereto. Should the licensing authority's decision form the subject of appeal, obviously the information furnished under the provisions of subsection (2) of Clause 5 would need to be made public.
My noble friend possibly has in mind the provisions of subsection (4) of Section 14 of the London Traffic Act, 1924, which requires particulars supplied to the Minister under that section to be treated as confidential except where the Minister considers that it. is in the public interest that they should be included in a Report to Parliament under the Act, or where the Minister considers that the disclosure of the same is requisite for the purposes of any inquiry under the Act or, in cases where legal proceedings are taken, for the purpose of those proceedings. It may be pointed out that the information under Section 14 is supplied to the Minister and not to the authority granting the licence. The two cases are,
192
therefore, not parallel. I regret we are unable to accept my noble friend's Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: After the noble Marquess's very full explanation I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment. It is true that under the Road Traffic Act the provisions are not the same as these. That entirely escaped my attention.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6:
Discretion of licensing authority as to grant or refusal of licences.
6.— (1) Subject to the provisions of the next succeeding section, the licensing au thority—

(a) on an application for an A licence or for a B licence, shall have full power in his discretion either to grant or to refuse the application, or to grant the application in respect of motor vehicles other than those of which particulars were contained in the application, or in respect of a less number of vehicles than that for the use of which authorisation was applied for; and

(b) on an application for a C licence, shall grant the application, unless the applicant is the holder of a licence which is suspended, or unless a licence previously held by him has been revoked, in either of which cases the licensing authority shall have full power in his discretion either to grant or to refuse the application.

(2) The licensing authority in exercising his discretion shall have regard primarily to the interests of the public generally, including those of persons requiring, as well Os those of persons providing, facilities for transport and, in particular, shall have regard in the case of an application for an A licence or for a B licence—

(a) where the applicant is the holder of an existing licence of the same class, to the extent to which he is authorised to use goods vehicles thereunder for the carriage of goods for hire or reward:

(b) to the previous conduct of the applicant in the capacity of a carrier of goods;

(c) to the number and type of vehicles proposed to be used under the licence; and, in the case of an application for a B licence, also to the extent to which the applicant intends that the vehicles proposed to be used under the licence shall be used for the carriage of goods for hire or reward.

(3) In any case in which the licensing authority refuses to grant a licence or grants a licence which differs from the licence applied for or imposes conditions to which the applicant does not agree, the licensing authority shall, if requested by the applicant, state the reasons for his decision.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The first two Amendments in my name to this clause are drafting. I beg to move
Amendments moved—
Page 9, line 11, leave out ("the application") and insert ("a licence")
Page 9, line 14, leave out ("a less number of vehicles than that") and insert ("motor vehicles or trailers less in number than, or differing in type from, those").— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD ILIFFEhad an Amendment on the Paper to add to paragraph (a) in subsection (1) the words "but shall not refuse an application for the renewal of au existing A or B licence except on the grounds on which the licence may be suspended or revoked." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is consequential upon an Amendment I propose to move at a later stage and therefore I will not move this Amendment now.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved to insert at the end of paragraph (c) in subsection (2) "and the necessary provision for substituted vehicles on occasions when authorised vehicles are withdrawn from use for repairs." The noble Earl said: This Amendment refers to the hiring margin. The other day the point was raised in the Second heading debate, but I do not think the noble Earl who replied for the Government really dealt with the position. The position is this. Our Amendment; is designed to make provision for substituting vehicles on occasions when vehicles are withdrawn for repairs. Take the case of a man— I believe there are quite a number of such cases— who has only one or two vehicles. It is quite possible that the licensing authority will not be able to approve of a hiring margin for such a man amounting, as it would perhaps in the case of a man owning one or two vehicles, to 50 per cent. We therefore desire to try to get over this difficulty by authorising in our Amendment the use of substituted vehicles. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 38, at end insert the said words.— (Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I think there is undoubtedly some substance in what the noble Earl has said. Undoubtedly in practice in coming to a
194
decision the licensing authority would take into consideration this fact, but, as there appears to be some doubt about it, if the noble Earl will move the Amendment in this form instead of his Amendment the Government will be prepared to accept it:
"(d) in determining the number of vehicles to be authorised, to the need for providing for occasions when vehicles are withdrawn from service for overhaul or repair."
I do not know wheather the noble Earl would agree to move the Amendment that form.
EARL HOWE: Yes, I think I shall be quite prepared to accept the Amendment moved in this form and I should desire to express my thanks to the noble Earl for having found himself able to do this.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 38, at end insert ("(d) in determining the number of vehicles to be authorised, to the need for providing for occasions when vehicles are withdrawn from service for overhaul or repair.")— Earl Howe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (3), after "state" to insert "in writing". The noble Marquess said: This Amendment provides that the reasons of the licensing authority, if required to be stated, shall be stated in writing. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 5, after ("state") insert ("in writing").— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 7:
Special provisions as to certain applications.
7.— (1) If, on an application for an A licence, the applicant satisfies the licensing authority that any of the authorised vehicles will be used exclusively for the purposes of a contract entered into by the applicant with a person carrying on a trade or business (not being the business of carrying or arranging for the carrying of goods) for the carriage of goods for or in connection with that trade or business during any continuous period of not less than one year, the licensing authority shall, unless he is satisfied that, having regard to the previous conduct of the applicant in the capacity of a carrier of goods, he is not a fit person to receive a licence, grant the application so far as regards those vehicles, subject to conditions

195
for securing that those vehicles shall be used exclusively for the purposes of the contract and shall at the termination of the contract cease to be authorised vehicles unless the licensing authority on an application made to him with respect thereto otherwise directs.
(2) If, on an application for an A licence made not later than six months after the date on which Section one of this Act comes into operation, the applicant shows to the satisfaction of the licensing authority that during the year beginning on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-two, he used any goods vehicles belonging to him, or in his possession under a hire purchase agreement, mainly for the purpose of the carriage of goods for hire or reward, the licensing authority shall grant the application in respect of vehicles having an aggregate weight unladen not less than the aggregate weight unladen of any such vehicles so used by him at any one time during the said year.
(3) if, on an application for a B licence made not later than six months after the date on which Section one of this Act comes into operation, the applicant shows to the satisfaction of the licensing authority that during the year beginning on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-two, he used any goods vehicles belonging to him, or in his possession under a hire purchase agreement, partly for the purpose of the carriage of goods for hire or reward, and partly for other purposes, the licensing authority shall grant the application in respect of vehicles having an aggregate weight unladen not less than the aggregate weight unladen of any such vehicles so used by him at any one time during the said year, and shall not, in the exercise of his discretion to attach conditions to a B licence, attach to the licence any conditions which would constitute a substantial interference with the carrying on of any trade or business for the purposes of which the vehicles were used as aforesaid.
(4) A vehicle shall not be included in a computation of aggregate weight for the purposes of more than one application for a licence by the same applicant, but the applicant may elect as to the application for the purposes of which a vehicle is to be included.
LORD DE CLIFFORD LORD DE CLIFFORD moved to insert after subsection (1):
"(2) if on an application for an A or a B licence the applicant being a person using horse-drawn vehicles for a carrier's business satisfies the licensing authority that the licence is required in order to enable the applicant to substitute motor vehicles for horse-drawn vehicles the licensing authority shall unless he is satisfied that the applicant has used horse-drawn vehicles in order to take advantage of this provision or that having regard to the previous conduct of the applicant in the capacity of a carrier of goods he is not a fit person to receive a licence, grant to the applicant a licence to use a goods vehicle or goods vehicles of an aggregate load capacity not less than the
196
horse-drawn vehicles for which it is proposed that the goods vehicles shall be substituted."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment provides for the case of a carrier who is now using horse-drawn vehicles but who might wish at some future date to change over to motor vehicles. Unless some provision such as the new subsection which I propose is inserted in the Bill his application would almost certainly be met by objections under Clause 10 and he might have his application refused. The Minister in another place said that this provision was unworkable for various reasons, and he gave assurances that the licensing authority would not refuse such an application. I fail to see how the Minister can give an assurance that an authority outside Parliament will not refuse a licence. The licensing authority is the one authority which has full discretion and I think licences will be refused unless some such provision as that contained in my Amendment is made. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 24, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord de Clifford.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I am afraid that the Government cannot accept this Amendment in its present form. I really think that in its present form it is quite unworkable, if for no other reason, because of the rate of difference in loading capacity of motor vehicles as compared with horse-drawn vehicles. At the same time I recognise that there is some substance in the contention of the noble Lord, and it is the intention of the Government to move an Amendment on Report stage to Clause 6 which will instruct the licensing authorities to have regard to the number of vehicles that an operator with horse-drawn vehicles has used hitherto. I hope that in these circumstances the noble Lord with withdraw his Amendment.
LORD DE CLIFFORD: I thank the noble Earl for his statement. Of course the licensing authority will be an expert authority and would be able— or at any rate should be able— to judge between the capacity of horse-drawn vehicles and motor vehicles. After what the noble Earl has said I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "six months after the date on which Section one of this Act comes into operation" and insert "the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-four, or such later date as the Minister may appoint." The noble Marquess said: Assuming that the Bill receives Royal Assent before Parliament rises, the Government does not see any reason why preparations should not he sufficiently advanced to allow of applications being submitted before 1st April. In the event of unforeseen circumstances arising, however, it is desirable that the Minister should be able to postpone the date if necessary. beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 26, leave out from ("than") to ("the") in line 27, and insert ("the first clay of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-four, or such later date as the Minister may appoint").— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved to amend the proposed Amendment by substituting "June" for "April." The noble Earl said: The reason I desire to move this Amendment is that ever since this Bill was introduced, ever since the period was first talked about, a promise was definitely given to the road transport industry that they would have a period of six months from the passage of the Bill into law. Now at this very late stage the Government propose to alter this period to a lesser one. I submit that this will inflict hardship on a number of small people. It will not matter so much to the big firms in the industry. They are sufficiently well organised to get in their applications by April, but there are a number of people outside the big transport organisations, small men who are scattered about all over the country, and I really think that the Government ought to make out a better case and give more reason than they have given so far for shortening the period. I would appeal to the noble Marquess to give this point further consideration before the Report stage. If he can give an assurance of that kind it will go a long way to help.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
Leave out ("April") and insert ("June").— (Earl Howe.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think my noble friend is under a mis-
198
apprehension. No one will operate under a licence for some period which may be longer than is now contemplated. The Government Amendment would enable preparations to be made. No one will be required to operate under licence until a period of six months has elapsed.
On Question, Amendment to the proposed Amendment negatived.
On Question, original Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 37, leave out ("him") and insert ("the applicant").— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (2), to leave out the last two words— "said year "— and insert "three years ending on the thirty-first day of March nineteen hundred and thirty-three." The noble Earl said: This Amendment is designed to enable figures to be taken for three years. The reason I ask your Lordships to extend the period proposed in the Bill is that, because of trade depression and trade fluctuations, one year is not a sufficiently representative time to take. A carrier whose business had suffered a temporary set-back during the period proposed would riot he fairly treated. I have a letter from a firm which I am informed is one of the oldest and best organised road haulage firms and this is how that firm would stand: based on the highest aggregate unladen weight in actual operation during the year ending 31st March, 1933, 1,206 tons; based on the two years ending 31st March, 1933, 1,300 tons; based on the three years provided in my Amendment 1,380 tons. In other words if you take two years instead of one year there would be an increase of 7¾ per cent. on the maximum tonnage, and if the period was extended another year that would mean an increase of 14½ per cent. Part of the difference between those figures is accounted for by ordinary fluctuations of trade, because in times of depression there is a reduced demand for transport services. This applies to local as well as to long distance services.
The second reason for this difference is that this particular firm has deliberately

199
withheld replacements of certain vehicles. Their fleet contains steam vehicles of considerable unladen weight and because of the uncertainty prevailing with regard to taxation and the general regulations covering the various types of vehicles which they have in this fleet they have not replaced them. The third reason is that since the Royal Commission on Transport first began its inquiry it has been clear that the operation of road transport was likely to be subject to increased regulation. In the interim, more particularly with regard to long distance services, the industry has been disorganised. It will be seen that you might positively as the Bill stands be penalising the man who really has been doing his hest and trying to operate his fleet in the spirit we should all agree to— namely, that the drivers should have proper hours and be properly paid, and the fleet not operated so as to contravene the law as it will be under this Bill. I submit, therefore, that the Government might well take into consideration extending this period. I am sure your Lordships will have seen, from the extracts that I have read to you of a letter from a very good firm indeed, that the date mentioned in the Bill is likely to operate hardly and to their detriment, and that a three-year period would certainly give a far fairer idea of the position, having regard to the depression in trade which has had its maximum effect during the last year. It is only since March last that things have begun to get better, and it is probably since that date that this fleet, in common with other fleets in this country, may have been able to put more vehicles on the road.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 37, leave out ("said year") and insert ("three years ending on the thirty-first day of March nineteen hundred and thirty-three.").— (Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I honestly do not believe that this a good Amendment, even from the point of view of the carrier in question. To begin with it would be hard enough to check claims put forward by applicants in respect of the one year ending March 31. 1933, and it would be infinitely more difficult to check claims for the three years before March 31, 1933. Again, it seems doubtful whether an alteration of this particular subsection in the sense suggested is going to help the applicant himself. If you look
200
at the census figures you will see that they show a steady increase in the number of goods vehicles licensed in the last three years— namely, 1930, 344,600; 1931, 356,700; and 1933, 366,100. Therefore it definitely shows that in most cases applicants would be considerably worse off if the standard were spread over three years, than if it were spread over one year. In addition to that there is this condition, that if the applicant can make out a case for more vehicles, he can perfectly well be granted a licence for more vehicles by the authority.
EARL HOWE: May I ask the noble Earl whether he will give an assurance that in such cases these facts will be definitely taken into consideration? because there is considerable nervousness in the minds of people as to how they will be treated by the licensing authority. It is probably quite true that figures have gone on an ascending scale and not, as in this particular case, on a descending scale, but I would like to remind the noble Earl that this particular firm have held back because of the licensing question under this Bill, and there is also the very intense nature of the competition which has undoubtedly been building up in the last two or three years. I hope that this matter will be considered sympathetically by the licensing authority.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I feel certain that the authority will take that kind of matter into consideration in coming to a decision. There is quite definitely a bias created in favour of the operator. Clause 6 (2) (a) says:
"where the applicant is the holder of an existing licence of the same class, to the extent to which he is authorised to use goods vehicles thereunder for the carriage of goods for hire or reward."
That is the section I meant to refer to, but I think it is perfectly clear that in coming to a decision the authority will have to take into account that kind of consideration.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is the same as I moved just now.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 39, leave out from ("than") to ("the") in line 40, and insert ("the first day of April, nineteen hundred and

201
thirty-four, or such later date as the Minister may appoint").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out "April" and insert "June". The noble Earl said: I desire to move this Amendment for exactly the same reasons as I desired to move a previous Amendment on the same point, and that is that the industry has looked upon it as a definite promise of six months before applications have to be in, and now the period has been shortened. I hope the Government can give us this little concession.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
Leave out ("April") and insert ("June").— (Earl Howe.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think the noble Earl must be under a misunderstanding as to what I have said. No licence would come into operation for a period of at least six months. The month of April was adopted to give an opportunity for applications to come in before that date, and I think the noble Lord need be under no apprehension that licences will be in operation for a period of at least six months from now, as they were promised.
On Question, Amendment to the Amendment negatived.
On Question, original Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 6, leave out ("him") and inert ("the applicant").— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ILIFFE LORD ILIFFE moved to insert after subsection (4):
"(5) If on objection being made to an application for the renewal of an existing licence the licensing authority refuses to grant the renewal of the licence or imposes mw conditions on the grant of the licence and the applicant proves to the Appeal Tribunal that the refusal of the new conditions will reduce the value of the business for which he intended to use the vehicle the Appeal Tribunal shall award to the applicant such an amount of compensation as shall appear to the Tribunal to be just in all the circumstances and such compensation shall be paid to the applicant by the party or parties who made objection to the application and if there is more than one such party the amount of the compensa-
202
tion shall be paid by them in such proportions as the Tribunal may determine."
The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to prevent the licensing authority from taking away an existing licence from a carrier who has broken no condition attached to it, unless compensation is provided. As the Government have recognised the right of an existing person operating a road haulage business to a licence for a period of two years, I submit that that right should be continued indefinitely and not taken away from a holder, provided he has obeyed all the conditions of the licence. Alternatively, if it be decided that a haulier's business should be sacrificed in the national interests, or in the interests of his competitors, then he should be compensated for having to give up his property. If it is an injustice, to-day, to refuse to grant licences to enable an existing business to be carried on, why is it not an injustice still if postponed for two years? If it is an injustice to-day, it is an injustice in two years time.
I understand that the Minister in another place stated that he was anxious not to create a vested interest. Is the granting of a licence a thing of value? Obviously it is, and particularly is this so when one remembers that one of the reasons for this Bill is to regulate business and prevent a throat-cutting competition. If a licence is refused the licensee is deprived of something of value, and unless he has done something to deserve that his licence Should be revoked I am sure your Lordships will agree that he should be compensated. The compensation, I submit, should be paid by his competitors, the people who directly benefit by that licence being revoked. I have great faith in the Ministry of Transport and in the Minister of Transport, and I do not believe in practice that they will refuse a licence on the ground of redundancy unless they have the right to grant compensation to the licensee whose licence has been refused. Unless a provision to that effect is made in this Bill the power to prevent competition will vanish. We have many instances in other legislation of the necessity for providing compensation when a licence is taken away. You have the case of public-house licences. If it is considered in the interests of the public as a whole that a licence should be taken away the licensee is compensated out of the fund provided by the trade,

203
and in my opinion, in order to make this Bill a workable Act, the Minister of Transport should reserve to himself the right to make the refusal of a licence depend upon adequate compensation being forthcoming in cases where the licensee himself has carried out all his obligations.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 17, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Iliffe.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I am afraid I cannot agree with the noble Lord. I really do not think this proposal is a very reasonable one, and it is certainly contrary to the expressed intention of the Bill. The result would be that the licensing authority would have no power to take into consideration the question of demand and redundancy in coming to a decision as to what licences he should grant and to what extent he should grant licences. Furthermore, as the noble Lord says, the effect of this Amendment would virtually be to create a freehold for existing operators. Clause 18, on the other hand, says:
"It is hereby declared that nothing in this part of this Act is to be treated as conferring on the holder of a licence any right to the continuance of any benefits arising from the provisions of this Part of this Act, or from a licence, or from any conditions attached to a licence."
The same kind of situation clearly arose in connection with passenger service vehicles in the Road Traffic Act, and no provision was made in the Road Traffic Act for the payment of compensation in cases where the operators were not allowed to continue on certain routes. In those circumstances, I hope that your Lordships will not accept this Amendment.
LORD ILIFFE: I am afraid the reply of the noble Earl does not really satisfy me. He cites the case of the passenger service vehicles. I think it is public knowledge that there have been many corn-plaints about the hardships which have arisen in the case of passenger service vehicles through licences being removed without compensation. I am most anxious that this Bill shall be workable, and I cannot believe that these licences will be withdrawn on the ground of redundancy unless the licensee obtains some compensation from those who benefit by the fact that his particular licence is revoked. I feel that this Bill will not be workable unless the Minister
204
is able to look freely into this question of redundancy and to reduce licences where they are unnecessary. He will never do that unless he feels that he can he fair to the person whose licence is taken away, and can grant that person some compensation. If the Government are not willing to accept this Amendment now I hope they will reconsider the matter and produce an Amendment on the Report stage.
EARL HOWE: I do not consider that the reply of the Minister is adequate. I fail to see that two wrongs make a right Here you are possibly going to take away a man's livelihood— not only the livelihood of the owner of the vehicle but also that of a number of his employees. There are analogies for compensation in such cases. There is the analogy already alluded to by Lord Iliffe, whereby the licensed trade compensates the licences extinguished. I do not think we are asking a great deal of the Minister. There should be some system for giving compensation for the revocation of licences. I cannot see why a man has not some right to continue to exist. You suddenly take his livelihood away. Are we really to tell him: "That is all right. Although you have conducted your business perfectly satisfactorily, you have no right to compensation because, if you had, we might thereby be recognising some freehold"? Surely we are not asking a great deal in urging some further reconsideration of this point.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I know that the Minister has given this matter very careful consideration indeed. I feel certain he will consider the representations which have been made here to-day, but I am certainly not in a position, in view of what I have said, to hold out any great hope that he will reverse the decision he has come to.
EARL HOWE: I shall put the Amendment down again on the Report stage, and I shall hope to press it somewhat further.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8:
Conditions of licences.
8.— (1) It shall be a condition of every licence

(a) that the authorised vehicles are maintained in a fit and serviceable condition;

205

(b) that any provisions (whether contained in any statute or in any statutory rules or orders) with respect to limits of speed and weight, laden and unladen, and the loading of goods vehicles are complied with in relation to the authorised vehicles,

(c) that in relation to the authorised vehicles the requirements specified in Section nineteen of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, with respect to the time for which drivers of certain vehicles may remain continuously on duty are observed;

(d) that the provisions of tilts Part of this Act relating to the keeping of records are complied with.

(2) It shall be a condition of every A licorice and of every B licence that the provisions of Section ninety-three of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, as amended and applied by this Part of this Act, are complied with in relation to the persons to whom that section is so applied.
(3) Subject to the provisions of subsection (3) of the last preceding section the licensing authority may in his discretion attach to a B licence, as respects the user of the authorised vehicles, or any of them, for the carriage of goods for hire or reward, all or any of the following conditions, that is to say—

(a) a condition that they shall be so used only in a specified district;

(b) a condition that certain classes or descriptions of goods only shall be so carried;

(c) a condition that goods shall be so carried only for specified persons;

(d) such other conditions (not being conditions with respect to the rates to be charged) as the licensing authority may think fit to impose in the public interest and with a view to preventing uneconomic competition.

(4) The licensing authority may, from time to time, on the application of the holder of the licence cancel or vary any conditions attached to a B licence in pursuance of subsection (3) of this section.
(5) If any person fails to comply with any condition attached to a licence, he shall be guilty of an offence under this Part of this Act.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I understand that the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, will move an Amendment he has down on the Paper to this clause, with reference to the provision of a speedometer, on the Report stage.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two Amendments are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 29, after ("1930") insert (" (as varied or amended by any order under that section or by this Act or any subsequent enactment)")
Page 11, line 31, after ("duty") insert ("and the hours which they are to have
206
for rest").— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL THE EARL OF KINNOULL moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "A licence and of every B." The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to extend the fair wages clause to the C-class licences. The Road Traffic Act, 1920, provides certain machinery which makes it possible to apply the fair wages clause to the licences issued to the passenger road services, and the present Bill in effect applies that machinery to the road haulage of goods. The holders of the A and B licences to be issued under this Bill are so covered. A recommendation of the Salter Report says that hauliers and ancillary users should be subject to regulations enforced through the grant of licences as regards fair wages and conditions of service and the maintenance of their vehicles in a state of fitness, and Mr. Stanley, on the Report stage in another place, said;
"From theoretical considerations I should like to have seen the C-class licence holders made subject to this fair-wage provision."
I think the only explanation given was that it was not a practical proposition, owing to the diversity of the undertakings and the conditions of employment.
An estimate was given on the Second Reading of the Bill in your Lordships' house to the effect that the proportion of goods haulage which will be covered by C licences is about 75 per cent. Therefore the very great majority of the work-people in this industry are directly affected by the decision on this matter. The number of people so affected has been estimated at a quarter of a million, but I think it is probably more likely 300,000. The assumption is that it is generally admitted that for 25 per cent. of the industry the existing machinery for the making of trade union agreements is sufficient and that this part of the industry should follow those agreements, but that it is not admitted that for the remaining 75 per cent. these agreements are suitable nor can they be applied, nor is it possible to utilise any other form of machinery which may be in existence.
First of all I can assert that as a matter of fact there is not the slightest difference in the work of drivers employed by general hauliers

207
and a great proportion of those employed by ancillary users. General hauliers frequently contract to supply vehicles in large fleets or singly to firms who are ancillary users. The employees of the general hauliers will be working alongside the employees of the ancillary users, doing precisely the same work. General hauliers sometimes contract to supply all the vehicles required by a certain undertaking while another undertaking in the same industry will decide for reasons of its own to run its own vehicles. Again, in both instances the employment will be the same, but the conditions of the licences under which the vehicles run will not be. The prospect of cheap labour will induce traders to cease placing contracts with proper haulage contractors and to secure their own fleets. This will not make any difference in the nature of the employment of the drivers— it will merely mean that their wages and conditions may be worsened. Secondly, I have to point out that some of the heaviest and most difficult of vehicles on the road will come within the category of C licences. They are the kind of vehicles that require the most careful and skilled management, and yet it is proposed not to ensure that the drivers are properly paid. The vehicles coming within this category are used in the following trades: Iron and steel, ballast, building, constructional engineering, cement, sand and gravel, quarrying. Other trades using heavy vehicles include: Paper, furniture, petrol and oil distribution, meat (wholesale), milk (wholesale), provisions (wholesale). In all these cases the drivers are fully employed on, or in connection with, their vehicles and their work is very similar to that of the men employed in general haulage.
We are of the opinion that these, together with many other and similar industries, will account for the greater proportion of the drivers of vehicles for which C licences will be granted. The English and Scottish C.W.S. alone have over 800 such vehicles, and admit that their drivers are fully engaged in work in connection therewith. Even in the retail trades there are very large fleets of vehicles owned by the large stores apart from the Co-operative Stores, and in all these cases the men are fully employed as drivers. With regard to the small owner the Labour Party has already
208
indicated its willingness to exclude from the operation of the proposal the owners of three vehicles or less. That, or a similar concession, is quite sufficient to meet the difficult cases, except that a provision might be made for larger owners requiring exemption to be given the right of appeal. Such cases could be dealt with on merits by a special voluntary tribunal set up for the purpose by the Minister.
Thirdly, there is the question of practicability. The appropriate clause in the Bill, which is Clause 27, gives to the Industrial Court instruction to "have regard to any determination which may be brought to its notice relating to the wages or conditions of service of persons employed in a capacity similar to that of the persons to whom the reference relates," having already been decided either by a joint industrial council, conciliation board, or other similar bodies, or in an agreement between employers and a trade union. There is no instruction to the Industrial Court that they should have regard only to the wages operating in the haulage industry. I think it is well known that inquiries have shown that in all the main industries in which transport is used as ancillary there are agreements governing the wages and conditions of transport workers. Instances of many such industries have been given during discussions on Committee and in the House. The Minister on Report stage referred to the Federation of Iron and Steel Manufacturers as being one of the sections of employers who have claimed that it is impossible to apply the conditions to them, yet in Committee Mr. Lewis Jones, speaking for the same industry, said: "No industry in the country has a better system of conciliation and wages conditions," clearly indicating that the machinery is there and ready to be used by the Industrial Court as required. The Minister also referred to the Engineering Federation, the Gas Employers' Federation, the Mining Association, the Shipbuilders' Employers' Federation, and the Wool Textile Employers' Federation. In all these industries there are trade union agreements, and it would not be difficult to find a fair basis for transport workers in those industries if they are not already provided for. The same can be said of all the heavy industries, manufacturers and wholesalers.
The retail distributive trade has been quoted as being the most difficult of all. Here again there are agreements, however. All the co-operative societies are so covered, and so are the London retail stores. Even if it were admitted that some drivers employed by smaller shops or even by larger concerns spend only part of the time upon the vehicle, in the interests of public safety some control is necessary. To work a full day in a shop or a warehouse and then to take a lorry to market indicates a working day longer than the normal. Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act does not apply here because the work is not "in connection with the vehicle," and yet a very fatigued man can take a vehicle on a road. The only way to control this is by trade union agreement, or the observance of Section 93 of the Road Traffic Act. I beg to move.
Amendment moved.
Page 11, line 36, leave out ("A licence and of every B").—(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The effect of this Amendment would be to extend the application of the condition as to fair wages and conditions of employment to the holders of C licences as well as to the holders of A licences and B licences. A similar Amendment was moved in Committee and on Report stage in the other place, and on each occasion was withdrawn. At the close of the discussion of the Amendment on Report the Minister of Transport gave an under taking that he would take an early opportunity of discussing the whole question with the representatives of the trade unions concerned and carefully consider their views and representations. The Leader of the Opposition stated that, if the Minister was prepared to meet the unions with a perfectly open mind and re-discuss the matter with them, he would on behalf of his friends ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. The Minister has since met representatives of the unions, but their arguments have not overcome what he regards as insuperable practical difficulties to the application of the fair wages conditions to the holders of C licences.
The noble Earl who has moved this Amendment assumed that a C licence holder will run a grave risk of not being paid proper wages, but I hardly think that that is likely to happen. When I moved the Second Reading of this Bill
210
I endeavoured to put before your Lordships the reason why, while agreeing to the fair wages clause for A and B licences, we were of opinion it should not be applied to the holders of C licences, and my noble friend in winding up the debate said it was the intention of the Minister for Labour to consult with the various organisations of employers and workpeople with a view to the establishment of a joint voluntary body or bodies which would have as their object the settlement of proper working conditions. It may seem illogical that the clause has been m de to apply to the holders of A and B licences and has been withheld from the C licence holder, but your Lordships will, I think, agree that the conditions which govern these classes are really f a totally different character. As you Lordships are aware, the whole conditions of labour wages in this country are based on voluntary arrangements which are, if I may use the expression, more or less satisfactory— certainly more than less. The fair wages provision brings in an element of compulsion which I do not feel is necessary on this occasion, and also I am of opinion that it will interfere to a certain extent with the working of the other conditions under which wages are determined. That is the view the Government are taking, and it seems to present a difficulty to have one portion by fixed arrangement and the other governed by voluntary and elastic conditions.
With regard to those holding C licences, it may be that the transport portion of those industries to which they belong will only represent a certain portion and perhaps a very small portion of the working day, and I think that your Lordships will understand that grave difficulties must arise if for that portion of the industry which relates to transport, the fair wages conditions should operate, while during the remaining portion of the day for which that operative is employed the conditions are of a totally different character. It does seem to the Government that in these circumstances it is far better to adopt the policy which they have put forward; that is to say, to accept the fair wages conditions for the A and B licences, but to leave the C licences outside the scope of this provision.
The noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition raised this question on Second

211
Reading, and I understand that I was not able to convince him by the arguments which I put forward; but I hope that he will take into consideration the very grave difficulties which must arise through the complexities of the situation connected with the holders of C licences from that point of view which I have endeavoured to put forward— that the transport work which a workman might have to undertake would be, or might be, only a very small portion of his operation in the week, and under the fair wages clause lie would be entitled to receive remuneration as if that remuneration were connected with his transport connection; and in relation to the other industries, those matters are dealt with by the trade unions belonging to those industries; and it seems to me that that is an operation with which we do not want to interfere. In fact I think the industries themselves would object to any inroad being made into the jurisdiction which they hold at the present moment. In the circumstances the Government feel that they cannot accept the Amendment which has been moved.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I must confess that we on this side of the House are very disappointed at the announcement which has just been made by the noble Marquess. We had hoped that in the interval between Second Reading and the Committee stage the Minister of Transport would have had an opportunity of reconsidering the matter and coming to a different conclusion from the one at which he had arrived. It happens that this is a matter of considerable importance, because it applies to such a very large number of the people affected by this Bill. I gather both from what the noble Marquess had said and from what was said by the Minister of Transport in another place, that in principle they are in favour of the fair wages resolution being applied, if possible, and that their excuse for not adopting it is its impracticability.
I have listened very carefully to the noble Marquess to hear what it was that made it so impracticable, and I must confess that I did not hear any real argument. Here we have workers on work about which there is no distinction whatsoever, workers doing precisely the same sort of work, and yet a discrimination is made between them in the conditions of
212
their employment. That seems to me to be an anomaly which ought not to be allowed to appear in this Bill. The noble Marquess said that in some cases they might be employed upon haulage for a very small proportion of their time; but in other cases they might be employed upon it for nearly the whole of their time, and I do not see why you should pick out one small difficulty. My noble friend Lord Kinnoull, I think, showed in his remarks directions in which some adjustment could be made, and that a scheme could be devised which would be quite practicable. I do not want to detain the Committee, but I am afraid that we shall have to register our protest on this particular Amendment by dividing your Lordships.
EARL BUXTON: I was responsible for the original fair wages resolution when, nearly forty years ago, it was passed in the House of Commons and in your Lordships' House, and I therefore look with considerable jealousy on anything which may tend to diminish the effective application of that resolution. The resolution was originally introduced in order to ensure that in Government contracts employers should pay the recognised rates of wages. It was found on many occasions that when applying for Government contracts a cut was made in the labour bill in order to give a footing to a lower estimate than that put in by other persons with whom the tenderer was competing, and that clause was adopted and became a resolution as regards Government contracts; and I am glad to believe that it has been recognised by public bodies all over the country, and also voluntarily by a very large number of employers.
I confess that I listened with some fear to what fell from the noble Marquess. The position is a very complicated one; that I entirely admit. It is difficult, and there are difficulties on both sides. As I understand, the fair wages clause, which is designed to obtain a fair rate of wages for the men, is to be enforced in the case of the A and B classes, but in class C it is not to be applied; and yet I believe— so it was stated, and not, I think, contradicted by the noble Marquess— no less than 70 per cent. of the men in question belong to Class C. It does appear to me that if

213
the fair wages clause is to be put into force for the two smaller classes, which represent only some 30 per cent. of the men affected, as I understand, it ought to be applied equally in the case of the other 70 per cent.
An appeal was made to the difficulties of the case. As I understand the noble Marquess, the difficulties are two-fold; in the first place, that some employers are not employing very large numbers of men and it might be difficult to say what is the fair wage in that case; and secondly, that in some cases the men are employed for only half of their time upon the particular work affected by the fair wages clause and are on other work at other times. As regards the first case, I do not see where the difficulty arises, because if there is a recognised rate of wage for these men and it can be put into force in the case of A and B licences, therefore if any employer pays his Class C men below that recognised rate he will be under-cutting labour and will be sweating his men. It will be easy enough to ascertain what is the fair rate of wages even in the case of a few men, as it is recognised already by the trade as a whole that there is a rate which is to be applied to the other two classes.
I admit the difficulty as to the man who is doing this work for part of his time and for the remainder of his time is doing other work. That, I admit, has to be considered; but I also think that the noble Marquess did not quite recognise what fell from the noble Earl who moved this Amendment— namely, that he is quite prepared to exclude from its operation the smaller employers, those who are employing only a few men, in whose case there may be some difficulty in ascertaining whether they are paying the fair rate of wage. I think the bulk of those companies and firms who come under Class C are large organisations employing many hundreds of men, with whom there would be no difficulty in ascertaining what the fair wage would be, and it is very unfair to my mind that that should not be applied to them equally with the other two classes. The noble Marquess, I understand, suggests that the matter could stand over until we see by experience how it works out, and he objected to it in regard to Cass C. I accept that, not as a satisfactory answer, but as an indication, at
214
all events, that the Minister of Transport and his representative here do see that there is a considerable amount of possible injustice in regard to this matter. I do not know that it is something calling for a Division. I recognise the difficulty, and I think the noble Earl who moved this Amendment must be satisfied that it is now recognised that his point is one which deserves to be raised in your Lordships' House, and one in regard to which we can perhaps hope that on Report stage we may get the Government to go further than they have agreed to do so far.
LORD ASKWITH: I should like to say a word in support of what the noble Earl has just said. He has talked about the working of the fair wages clause in other industries. I was Chairman of the Fair Wages Advisory Committee for eight years and we had a great many of these cases coining before us. I can assure your Lordships, from experience, and from knowledge of what I saw, that the clause worked without great difficulty, and that it caused, by its being worked, a great reduction of unrest and trouble that might otherwise have arisen. I think it was a very good thing indeed. If the noble Marquess would take into further consideration whether more thought could be given to this matter, I should be glad if your Lordships could feel you had taken some steps to reduce the amount of unrest and trouble which so frequently arises through the non-application of the fair wages clause.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I cannot possibly be insensible to the remarks which have fallen from my noble friend who sits behind me (Lord Askwith). He has asked if it were possible for the Government to give fuller consideration to this matter. Your Lordships are well aware that the time at our disposal is now very short, and that, instead of having, as is customary, many days to consider this matter we have to face the fact that Parliament rises on Friday, and that the Report stage will naturally have to be taken in a very short space of time. The speeches which have been made by my noble friends show that there is a desire (shall I put it?) on the part of the noble Earl who sits opposite to divide in favour of his Amendment, and on the part of my noble friends of suggesting that we might consider this

215
matter more fully. No one, speaks with greater authority than the noble Lord who sits behind me. He perhaps has had more experience and has more knowledge of labour matters almost than any one in this country, and when he makes a suggestion of the kind he has made it is one that naturally must be fully considered, but I would venture to put before him the reasons which have already been stated in your Lordships' House.
It is quite true that the holders of C licences will constitute a very large percentage of the licensees; indeed they will be more than the number of those who are holding A and B licences, but I think your Lordships will also agree that in the circumstances the C licence holders do find themselves in a totally different condition from the conditions which operate in the case of the holders of A and B licences. The conditions under which A and B licence holders operate only exist to a very small extent in the case of the greater number of those who hold C licences. In the road haulage industry proper the transport workers constitute the principal grade of work-people employed, but as to the industries whose workers will be holding the C licences, it is impossible for me to give actual figures, because I have not them in my possession. I think it will be found that the conditions to which I have made reference will govern the workpeople in question. I think that when the provisions come to be put into operation it will be found that there will be so many restrictions and so many exceptions, that many of the conditions will produce anomalies which could hardly he removed unless the fair wages provision was so hedged about with exceptions and qualifications that it would be almost impossible to enforce and practically useless as a protection.
Words to that effect were used during the Second Reading debate, and I am given to understand from those who advise me, and on whose behalf I am putting this Bill before your Lordships, that this is a factor of the greatest importance, and that, notwithstanding their desire to carry out all these provisions and all those intentions which are in the minds of my noble friend who sits behind me and of the noble Earl (Lord Buxton), and of the noble Earl who sits opposite, the difficulties would be so great that the conditions which my noble friends
216
have asked for could not be given effect to at, this moment. I would remind your Lordships of what was said in the speech of my noble friend Lord Plymouth in winding up this debate, and that was that there was a desire on the part of the employers organisations and work-people to come together and discuss these very points. I feel when these matters can be discussed, as they will be discussed at no very distant date, we shall have then a much clearer view as to whether the proposition which is contained in this Amendment is best for all concerned, or whether the suggestions which come from the Ministry of Transport and are contained in this Bill are best suited to the "C" case as it appears to us at this moment.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I confess after listening to the noble Marquess I still find it difficult to understand why it should be so complicated a matter to draw a distinction between licence holders A and B and licence holders C. When he made the statement on Second Reading it seemed to me there were such complications that it, was impossible to give effect to what is desired, and I was rather inclined to accept that view from him, because I know these matters have to be enquired into by the civil servants whose business it is to give their time and attention to them. I cannot understand now, however, why there should be this complication, particularly after what has been said by the noble Earl who moved this Amendment. He was quite prepared to agree that exceptions should be made in the case of the small trader. It seems a little difficult for your Lordships now to make the exception when you are dealing with the users of the road in all the three classes. You have men working very much the same hours and under the same conditions, and I am quite unable to understand why there should be any complication. If there are any special difficulties they can be met. One does look for some reason why you should draw a distinction respecting the fairness of a rate of wage. The noble Earl, Lord Buxton, had much to do with the introduction of the fair wages clause, and it has been followed throughout the country for a great number of years. Why is there now this complication which makes it impossible to apply it equally to licences A and B and C? I would appeal

217
to my noble friend at this moment, notwithstanding the lateness of the stage, to consider whether there may not be some way of meeting this difficulty, though he may not go the whole way. I am both to have to vote against him in a Division on this particular measure, but so far I confess I do not understand why there
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two Amendments on the Paper are drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 40, leave out line 40 and insert ("the authorised vehicles").
Page 12, line 5, at end, insert ("or between specified places").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to leave out subsection (5). The noble Marquess said: This subsection,
Should be a difference between A and B and C licence holders.
On Question, Whether the words "A licence and of every B" shall stand part of the clause?
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 65; Not-Contents, 29.

CONTENTS.

Sankey, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Wicklow, E.

Greville, L.

Harris, L.

Wellington, D.

Astor, V.

Hawke, L.

Chaplin, V.

Heneage, L.

Oamden, M.

Churchill, V.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Zetland, M.

Cobham, V.

Hutchison of Montrose, L.

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

lliffe, L.

Albemarle, E.

Goschen, V.

Irwin, L.

Balfour, E.

Hailsham, V.

Kinnaird, L.

Derby, E.

Hutchinson, V. (E. Donough-more.)

Lamington, L.

Bowe, E.

Luke, L.

lddesleigh, E.

Knutsford, V.

Marks, L.

Leven and Melville, E.

Meldrum, L. (M. Huntly.)

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Alvingham, L.

Merthyr, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Barnard, L.

Oriel, L. (V. Massereene.)

Midleton, E.

Butler of Mount Juliet, L. (E. Carrick.)

Ormonde, L. (M. Ormonde.)

Morton, E.

Palmer, L.

Mount Edgcumbe, E.

Carrington, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Munster, E. [Teller.]

Ohesham, L.

Remnant, L.

Onslow, E.

Cottesloe, L.

Rennell, L.

Plymouth, E.

Danesfort, L.

Rochester, L.

Radnor, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Selsdon, L.

Stanhope, E.

Faringdon, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Wigan, L. (E. Crawford.)

NOT-CONTENTS.

Reading, M.

Conway of Allington, L.

Mendip, L. (V. Clifden.)

Cozens-Hardy, L.

O'Hagan, L.

Buxton, E.

Darling, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Strafford, E.

de Clifford, L.

Rathcreedan, L.

Gainford, L.

Rhayader, L.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Gladstone of Hawarden, L.

Russell of Liverpool, L.

Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.) [Teller.]

Sanderson, L.

Addington, L.

Sandhurst, L.

Amulree, L.

Jessel, L.

Snell, L. [Teller.]

Askwith, L.

Mamhead, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L. (L. Sheffield.)

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Melehett, L.

Swavthling, L.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

which deals with the penalty attaching to non-observance of the conditions attached to a licence, now appears in the new clause put down by the Government to follow immediately after Clause 8. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 19, leave out subsection (5).—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: On the Question that Clause 8 stand part of the Bill, I should like to refer for a minute or two to the duties and powers conferred upon the Traffic Commissioners. They are so far-reaching in character and

219
extent that I think it is worth while summarising them to your Lordships. In the first place they have to see that every vehicle is in a serviceable condition and to continue to see that it shall he in that condition. They have to see that every rule relating to speed, to weight, and to the method of loading is complied with. That also is a continuing duty. They have, moreover, to ensure that the hours of duty are observed and that adequate records are kept—also a continuing duty. Each Traffic Commission consists of two gentlemen, one of whom is a nominee of the Government. As regards licences their powers are as follows: They can say that a vehicle shall not work except in a specified district, and, according to the Amendment just put in, between specified places. Secondly, they can control the class and the description of the goods carried in every vehicle of this description. Thirdly, they can limit the carriage of goods to specified persons. Finally, they can impose any other conditions they think fit, so long as it does not refer to the rates charged. I can imagine nothing more calculated to impair the mobility and fluidity of the vehicular traffic than those powers and duties conferred upon this large number of Traffic Commissioners, scattered all over the country.
Your Lordships may recall what happened a few years ago, when there was a great dislocation of railway traffic and recourse was had to the motor traffic, and many of your Lordships, I dare say, saw the central parks of this Metropolis occupied by hundreds and thousands of motor cars, which were carrying milk to London. The freedom with which those vehicles were allowed to operate in the milk traffic, and the ease with which they could move from their normal traffic to this traffic, was such that the health and security of London were maintained. Now, supposing we have got Commissioners who do not think that those things should be permitted during a strike, and that the Commissioners of Wiltshire or Buckinghamshire or Hertfordshire may say that these cars are not licenced to carry milk or coal, or whatever it may be, and shall not work between their area and London; and, finally, that they shall only carry goods for specified persons, which, of course, is incompatible with the general needs during a crisis such as occurred a few
220
years ago—I venture to say that those gentlemen can paralyse the food supplies of London, or of any other area, if they are minded to do so. I suppose your Lordships desire this power to be conferred upon these gentlemen. For my part I think it would be extremely dangerous, and those who were concerned in that crisis a few years ago do not need any assurance that at that time there were persons of very high authority who were anxious that the crisis should not be solved. All I can say is that if those persons concerned should be nominees of the Government the danger may be such as in particular circumstances might prove to be disastrous.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: We have listened to the speech which has fallen from the noble Earl, and if I may venture to say so I think you will agree with me, and so also will the noble Earl, that that speech would have found better place on the Second Reading of the Bill, because, in the speech which he has delivered, the noble Earl has really called into question the whole principle on which the Bill is founded. As to what the noble Earl has said with reference to licensing authorities, those are the conditions which the licensing authorities may impose, but those conditions will have to be carried out by the police and other officers appointed under the Bill. With regard to the second part of his speech, in which he is under the impression that the provisions of this Bill may further paralyse the life of the country, I think all those difficulties which he has enumerated can be dealt with under the Emergency Powers Act, which could be called into being if such a situation arose. I do not feel, after the debate which we have already had on this Bill, that I can usefully add anything to what I have already said on the Second Reading of this Bill.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to insert the following new clause after Clause 8:
Penalty for non-compliance with and exception from conditions of licences.
".—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, any person who fails to comply with any condition of a licence held by him, shall be guilty of an offence under this Part of this Act.
(2) Notwithstanding that a vehicle is an authorised vehicle, the conditions of the

221
licence shall not apply while the vehicle is being used for any purpose for which it might lawfully he used without the authority id a licence."
The noble Marquess said: This new clause is largely a matter of redrafting and rearrangement. The first subsection of the new clause is in effect a reproduction of subsection (5) of Clause 8. By a previous Amendment that subsection has been struck out of the clause. Subsection (2) of the new clause is required to make it clear that the conditions of a licence shall not apply while an authorised vehicle is being used for any of the exempted purposes set out in subsection (5) of Clause 1.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 8, insert the said new Clause.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9:
Variation of licences.
9.—(1) On the application of the holder of a licence, the licensing authority by whom the licence was granted may at any time during its currency vary the licence by directing that additional vehicles shall be specified therein or that vehicles specified therein shall be removed therefrom, or that the number of motor vehicles or of trailers specified in the licence in pursuance of paragraphs (b) and (c) respectively of subsection (6) of Section two of this Act shall be increased or reduced.
(2) The foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act as to applications for licences of any class (except provisions as to the licensing authority to whom applications are to be made), as to the grant or refusal of licences of any class (except the provisions of subsections (2), (5) and (4) of Section seven), and as to the attaching of conditions to B licences shall apply in relation to the variation of a licence of that class:
Provided that the licensing authority shall be bound to grant an application for a variation consisting only of the removal of a specified vehicle from the licence, or of a reduction in the number specified as aforesaid or of the specification in the licence in substitution for a specified vehicle of a vehicle of the same or of a less weight unladen.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendments to this clause are drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
page 12, line 27, after ("the") insert ("maximum").
Page 13, line 1, after the first ("the") insert ("maximum").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 10:
Objections to certain applications for licences or variations o f licences.
10.—(1) The licensing authority shall publish in the prescribed manner notice of an application to which this section applies specifying the dine within which, and the manner in which, objections may be made to the grant of the application.
(2) It shall be the duty of the licensing authority, on an application to which this section applies, to take into consideration any objections to the application which may be made by persons who are already providing facilities, whether by means of road transport or any other kind of transport, for the carriage of goods for hire or reward in the district, or between the places which the applicant intends to serve, on the ground that suitable transport facilities in that district, or between those places are or, if the application were granted, would be, either generally or in respect of any particular type of vehicles, in excess of requirements, or on the ground that any of the conditions attached to a licence held by the applicant has not been complied with:
Provided that on an application for the grant or variation of an A licence, the licensing authority shall not be bound to take into consideration objections made by a person who holds a B licence and does not also hold an A licence.
(3) This section shall apply to every application for the grant of an A licence or a B licence, or for the variation of such a licence by a direction' that additional vehicles shall be specified therein or that the number of motor vehicles or of trailers specified in the licence in pursuance of paragraphs (b) and (c) respectively of subsection (6) of Section two of this Act shall be increased or in the case of a B licence that the district specified in the licence within, which the vehicles can be used for the carriage of goods for hire or reward should be varied or extended, not being—

(a) an application which the licensing authority is bound to grant; or

(b) an application for a licence to expire not later than an existing licence under which the vehicles to which the application relates are authorised to be used for the purposes of a business which the applicant has acquired or intends to acquire;

(c) an application as respects which 4-he licensing authority is of 'opinion that, having regard to its trivial character it is not necessary that any opportunity should be given for objection;

and to every application for a short-term licence, unless the applicant satisfies the licensing authority that the application for the licence has been made with reasonable expedition and that the demand for the use of the vehicles to be authorised under the licence is so urgent as to render compliance with the requirements of this section impracticable, or unless the application is for a short-term licence pending the determina-

223
tion of an application for the grant of a licence for the currency period.
(4) The licensing authority may hold such inquiries as he thinks necessary for the proper exercise of his functions under this Act.
(5) Where on an application for the grant of an A licence or a B licence, the licensing authority proposes to grant the application in respect of vehicles other than those of which particulars were contained in the application, he shall publish notice of his proposal as if that proposal were an application to which this section applies, and thereupon the provisions of this section with respect to the making and consideration of objections shall apply accordingly:
Provided that it shall not be necessary for the licensing authority to publish such a notice if he is satisfied that the variation, subject to which he proposes to grant the application, will not materially increase the total carrying capacity of the vehicles to be specified in the licence.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next three Amendments are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 13, line 35, leave out ("attached to") and insert ("of").
Page 14, line 2, after ("grant") insert ("for the currency period").
Page 14, line 4, after ("the") insert ("maximum").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next is a drafting Amendment to bring the clause into conformity with Clause 5 (1) (c).
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 9, after ("which") insert ("or the places so specified between which").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 10, leave out ("should") and insert ("shall").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I beg to move the two following Amendments standing in my name.
Amendments moved—
Page 14, line 24, leave out from the beginning of the line to ("has") in line 26, and insert:
("(4) This section shall apply to every application under subsection (3) of Section three of this Act for a short-term A licence,
224
Or short-term B licence, unless the licensing authority is of opinion either—

(a) that, having regard to the trivial nature of the application, it is not necessary that any opportunity should be given for objection; or

(b) that the application ")

Page 14, line 30, leave out from ("impracticable") to the end of the subsection.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, at the end of subsection (4), to insert: "and such inquiries shall be held in public unless the licensing authority intimates in any case that in the interests of justice it is expedient that the inquiry should be held in private." The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to provide for a public inquiry and at the same time to preserve the right of a private inquiry should it appear to be right. The point was raised by me on the Second Reading the other day and the noble Marquess then gave an assurance that inquiries under the Bill would be held in public. The purpose of this Amendment is merely to make that quite clear.
Amendment move—
Page 14, line 36, at end, insert the said words.—(Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I think the noble Earl must have misunderstood what was said on the Second Reading. What I think was said was that there was no desire to maintain any secrecy about these inquiries, but the provisions with regard to inquiries have been placed in the Bill in the interests of applicants. If every inquiry is to be taken in public the expense to the applicant would have to be much greater than it would be if the Bill goes through in its present form, by which there would be a simple application in writing. There is really ample provision for publicity with regard to these matters if there is any serious question at stake. To begin with, in the case of revocation of a licence the holder of the licence will be in a position and have the right to ask that the inquiry should be held in public. Furthermore, if there is any question of an appeal the appeal will go to a Tribunal and all Tribunal appeals will naturally be heard in public. Therefore I do not think there is any sound justification for the noble Lord's fear that there will be undue secrecy. I can assure him that that is not the

225
desire of the Government, and I think that the Bill amply provides for seeing that the applicant does not suffer in any respect from that cause.
EARL HOWE: I was under the impression the other day that the Minister gave us a quite definite assurance that inquiries held under the Bill would be public ones. Any impression to the contrary would, I think, be most unfortunate. We have no information as to how the licensing authority will conduct its inquiry, or as to whether the evidence given before it will be on oath. Will it be just tittle-tattle collected from common informers? How will that, evidence be collected? Still more, how will it be presented? It is most desirable that there should be no suspicion whatever of any hole-and-corner work, or of any doubtful evidence being given or acted upon. It does not seem to me very much to ask that the inquiry should be in public while, at the same time, its private character should be preserved if it became necessary to do so. The noble Earl said that the public inquiry would very largely increase the expense, but I do not follow that. I cannot see why a public inquiry should be much more expensive to the licence holder than a private one. I think there are all sorts of loopholes for suspicion under the Bill, and it will be very much better if the noble Earl could give us the concession we ask for
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I am afraid it is not possible for the Government to do that. I think I gave sufficient reasons to show that the effect of laying down that every inquiry should be held in public would be to increase the cost very much. At present it is possible for an application to be granted by correspondence. That clearly saves a lot of money. Instead of a man having to come up to attend the inquiry personally at the headquarters of the licensing authority these simple applications will go through without any fuss, and with very much less expense than if the inquiry had to be in public. If there is any question of the wrong kind of evidence being taken into consideration, there is a remedy at once in the fact that the applicant can appeal, and his appeal will have to be heard by the Tribunal. The inquiry by the Tribunal will be held in public, and if there is any attempt to use evidence that
226
should not be used an appeal to the Tribunal will reveal that at, once, and it is perfectly clear that public opinion will be such that that kind of way of conducting these inquiries could not possibly be maintained.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 8, leave out ("vehicles to be specified in the licence") and insert ("authorised vehicles").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
LORD MELCHETT LORD MELCHETT moved to insert the following new clause after Clause 10:
Provisions as to holding and subsidiary companies.
".—(1) Where a holding company on an application for a licence signifies to the licensing authority its desire that the provisions of this section should have effect as respects a subsidiary company specified in the application, then, in relation to the application and to any licence granted thereon to the holding company and to the use of the authorised vehicles, this Part of this Act shall have effect—

(a) as if goods vehicles belonging to, or in the possession of, the subsidiary company, were vehicles belonging to, or in the possession of, the holding company:

(b) as if, where a goods vehicle is used in circumstances in which, but for this provision, the subsidiary company would be deemed to be the user thereof, the holding company were the user thereof:

(c)as if a trade or business carried on by the subsidiary company were a trade or business carried on by the holding company:

(d)as if a person employed by the subsidiary company as a driver or statutory attendant of an authorised vehicle were a person employed by the holding company:

(e)as if the subsidiary company were an applicant for the licence.

(2) The provisions of this section shall cease to have effect as respects any subsidiary company—

(a) if the holding company gives notice to the licensing authority that it desires that this section should, as from any date, cease to apply to that company, as from that date; or that it desires that this section should cease to apply to that company; or

(b) as from the date on which that company ceases to be a subsidiary company of the holding company.

(3) In this section the expression holding company 'means a company which is the beneficial owner of not less than ninety per cent. of the issued share capital of another

227
company, and the expression subsidiary company,' in relation to a holding company, means a company not less than ninety per cent. of the issued share capital of which is in the beneficial ownership of the holding company.
Where a subsidiary company (as herein-before defined) is the beneficial owner of any shares of another company, those shares shall be treated for the purposes of the foregoing definitions as if they were in the beneficial ownership of the holding company."
The noble Lord said: This clause is designed to remove certain anomalies that would occur between companies and their subsidiary companies as organised in industrial units. The principle has been discussed this afternoon, has been discussed in another place, and has been accepted really from the beginning by the Government. It was also raised on the Second Reading by the noble Marquess opposite (Lord Reading). The object is to enable companies, which are organised as holding companies with subsidiaries, to carry their own goods, whereas, as the Bill is drafted, that would not be the case. The matter has been discussed by the representatives of the. Federation of British Industries and the Associated Chambers of Commerce with the advisers of the Ministry of Transport, and the present clause is agreed between them. The noble Lord, Lord Cozens-Hardy, raised the question of why 90 per cent. had been chosen as tie definition of a subsidiary company. The cases of subsidiary companies are continually being defined in legislation, and 90 per cent. was agreed because it is the definition taken in Section 55 of the Finance Act, 1927, and Section 42 of the Finance Act, 1930. We should have been pleased to have 51 per cent., but the Government did not see its way to agreeing to that, and therefore we should be quite prepared to take 90 per cent.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 10 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Melchett.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I do not feel that, after the debate which has taken place on this subject, there is any need for me to add to what I have already said. The noble Lord has told your Lordships that this clause is the result of discussions which have taken place between the Federation of British Industries and the Ministry of Transport, and they have come to the conclusion that 90 per cent. must be the figure in-
228
cluded in the Bill. At an early stage this afternoon I endeavoured to point out to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cozens-Hardy, that in our opinion, with a lesser percentage than 90 per cent., the ramifications of many associated companies would be of so loose a character that the provisions which we seek to impose in this Bill could not possibly be carried out. For this reason we are prepared to accept the clause moved by my noble friend.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL THE EARL OF KINNOULL moved to insert the following new clause:
Drivers' licences.
".—(1) A person shall not drive a goods vehicle on a road unless he is licensed for the purpose under this Part of this Act, and a person shall not employ any person who is not so licensed to drive a goods vehicle on a road.
(2) A person shall be disqualified for obtaining a licence to drive a goods vehicle unless he is over the age of twenty-one and fulfils such other conditions as may be prescribed:
Provided that the above-mentioned limit of age shall be dispensed with if the applicant shows to the satisfaction of the licensing authority that he was during the six months immediately preceding the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, regularly employed as a driver of a goods vehicle.
(3) A licence to drive a goods vehicle may be limited to such type or types of vehicles as may be specified in the licence.
(4) An application for a licence to act as a driver of a goods vehicle shall be made to the licensing authority for the area in which the applicant resides.
(5) The provisions of Sections seventy-nine, eighty, and eighty-two of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, shall apply to any licence granted under this section as though it were a licence granted under the provisions of Part IV of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, with the substitution of the licensing authority for the Traffic Commissioners referred to in the aforesaid Act."
The noble Earl said: The drivers of passenger service vehicles under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, must hold a special licence in addition to the ordinary driving licence to enable them to drive such vehicles. The object of this new clause is to provide for similar licences for the drivers of goods vehicles, the same machinery for the issue of the licences being used. Subsection (2) provides that nobody may drive a goods vehicle unless he is over the age of twenty-one. I think that is a very excellent provision,

229
as practically everybody will agree that people under twenty-one are inclined to be reckless. In the same subsection it is provided that if the driver has driven for six months before the 1st of January, 1933, he is exempted horn this provision. I think in the interests of public safety this Amendment should be made. I notice it is argued that the driver of a public service vehicle is a special case, but the driver of a goods vehicle, after all, can endanger those passengers. The goods vehicle is frequently larger and heavier than anything else on the road, and, unless it be in the hands of an expert, it may prove the source of great danger to others using the roads. We are dealing here with a special type of vehicle to which should be applied the same test as is applied to passenger vehicles.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 10 insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: A similar clause to the one which has been moved by the noble Earl was moved in another place on the Committee stage and again on Report and, after a debate on each occasion, was rejected on a Division. The effect of the clause would be to require drivers of goods vehicles to be licensed in the same manner as drivers of public service vehicles under the Road Traffic Act of 1930. The clause would also impose a minimum age limit of 21 for drivers of goods vehicles. At the present time, under Section 9 of the Act of 1930, this age limit only applies to drivers of locomotives, motor tractors and heavy motor cars. The age limit for the lighter types of goods vehicles, which fall into the motor car class, is 17; and it seems to me, while this higher age might be imposed for drivers who deal actually with passenger traffic, still it is a matter which I think would require much further consideration before limiting it in the manner in which the noble Earl proposes to limit it by his Amendment.
There is a good deal to be said in favour of a driving test for drivers of goods vehicles, though the arguments are not so strong as those in the case of drivers of public service vehicles. But if the drivers of goods vehicles are to be subject to a test it would logically follow that the same requirement should be placed on the drivers of all motor
230
vehicles. It is quite probable that Parliament may reach this decision, but I feel sure your Lordships will agree with me when I say that such a provision should be of universal application. It seems to me illogical to apply this regulation piecemeal to the drivers of goods vehicles in the present Bill. The Minister of Transport proposes to review the whole question of statutory requirements relating to the driving of motor vehicles when the official investigation which is now being carried out into the causes and circumstances of fatal road accidents is completed, and when that examination and that investigations has taken place the Minister of Transport will then be in a position to make recommendations on definite information in the direction which the noble Earl suggests. We are not able to accept the Amendment.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I rather hoped the Government would accept something of this kind, because this is a safety provision, and I think it would have been a great advantage to bring this into the Bill. The noble Marquess said they could not draw a hard and fast line in insisting on tests for the drivers of these heavy goods vehicles and not for the drivers of ordinary cars. I think there is a great distinction between the two. I have always seen the difficulty of having tests for all motor cars, but in this case you have a man who has got to drive whether he likes it or not, who has got to go on driving whether he likes it or not, whatever the weather, and that is not the case with the private motorist. Therefore I hope that this is a matter which may be taken into very close consideration when the Minister of Transport has before him all the facts in regard to road accidents. I would almost say it is a matter which requires his urgent attention.
EARL HOWE: I only rise for a few brief seconds to emphasise the fact that the noble Marquess has just made a statement which, if I heard him aright, is of the greatest possible importance from the point of view of all motor users throughout the country. I understood the noble Marquess to say that it was quite probable, as the result of the investigations which the Government are carrying out into motor accidents, that tests would be imposed by Parliament for all drivers. If that is so, if I heard him aright, may I say how very much I welcome the fact

231
that there is a possibility of this being carried out? I must join issue with the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, who spoke just now and tried to draw a distinction between drivers who have to carry on whatever the conditions and those drivers who have not to carry on. That is an absolutely impossible distinction. I do not see it for a moment. A driver may be caught out at any moment in unfavourable conditions on the road, and Parliament ought to insist that a driver so caught out in these conditions, whether on private service or on public service, whether he is a goods driver or any other, ought to be a competent man. It is very unsafe to allow anybody but a competent man to have charge of a motor vehicle. I welcome the statement the noble Marquess has just made, which I consider to be of the utmost possible importance.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 11:
Power to revoke or suspend licences.
11.—(1) A licence may be revoked or suspended by the licensing authority on the ground that any of the conditions attached to the licence have not been complied with;
Provided that the licensing authority shall not revoke or suspend a licence unless he is satisfied, after holding a public inquiry, if the holder of the licence requests him so to do, that owing to the frequency of the breach of conditions on the part of the holder of the licence, or to the breach having been committed wilfully, or to the danger to the public involved in the breach, the licence should be revoked or suspended.
(2) In any case where a licence is revoked or suspended the licensing authority shall, if requested by the licence holder, state in writing the grounds for the revocation or suspension.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 11, after ("authority") insert ("by whom the licence was granted").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: This also is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 12, leave out ("attached to") and insert ("of").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ILIFFE LORD ILIFFE moved, in the proviso in subsection (1), to leave out "he" and
232
insert "the holder of the licence or a person employed by him has been convicted of an offence of having failed to comply with the conditions attached to the licence and unless the licensing authority." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is designed to prevent a licence being revoked unless the holder or his servant is convicted of an offence under the conditions of the licence in a court of summary jurisdiction where evidence is taken on oath. The licensing authorities apparently are not concerned to take evidence on oath, and as the refusal to renew a licence or the decision to revoke a licence is a very serious matter it is very unsatisfactory that such a step should be taken without the evidence being taken on oath. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 15, leave out ("he") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Iliffe.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: We cannot accept this Amendment, which really strikes at the root of the Bill, one of the main objects being that the granting of a licence should be a sanction for the proper observance of the conditions which are laid down. It is notorious that up till now these regulations have been constantly broken, and the threat of a comparatively small fine has not been sufficient to deter those who have been breaking them. The power to revoke a licence is one which we believe will have very great effect. I think it is right and proper that the authority should be entitled to take into consideration any evidence, from whatever source he believes to be the right one. For instance, the Industrial Court might determine that the holder was not paying fair wages nor observing proper conditions of employment. This would not be a conviction, but if the noble Lord's Amendment was passed it would not be open to the authority to revoke this licence, even if the Industrial Court proved the licence holder had not been paying fair wages. There are other forms of evidence which it is only right and proper should be taken into consideration. I should like to draw the noble Lord's attention to the fact that there is a subsection in this Bill which requires a licensing authority, before revoking or suspending a licence, to hold a public

233
inquiry into the matter should he be requested to do so, and there is always the right of appeal.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 18, leave out ("on the part of the holder").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to add to the clause:
"(3) The licensing authority may, in lieu of revoking or suspending a licence, direct that any one or more of the vehicles specified therein shall be removed therefrom or that the maximum number of motor vehicles or of trailers specified in the licence in pursuance of paragraphs (b) and (c) respectively of subsection (6) of Section two of this Act shall be reduced, and references in this or any other section of this A to the revocation or suspension of a licence shall be construed as including a reference to the giving of a direction under this subsection."
The noble Marquess said: It has been represented that the revocation or suspension of a licence under the provisions of Clause 11 would carry with it such serious consequences to the operator—in most cases it would put him completely out of business—that the powers conferred on the licensing authority in that behalf would rarely, if ever, be exercised. The provisions of the new subsection proposed to be inserted by this Amendment, would enable the licensing authority to suspend or revoke a licence in part, that is to say, in respect of specified vehicles. There would be the same right of appeal to the Appeal Tribunal in respect of a partial suspension or revocation as in the case of a complete suspension or revocation.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 25, at end, to insert the said new subsection.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
EARL HOWE: On a point of Order, I am afraid I did not realise that the noble Lord had moved the Amendment in page 15, line 18; at least I understood that he said something about it being a drafting Amendment, but really it contains a point of great substance to the motor transport industry about which we are anxious.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I understood that it was a drafting Amendment, and I am afraid it has been passed.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 12 agreed to.
Clause 13:
Appeals to Appeal Tribunal in connection with licences.
13.—(1)Any person who,—
(c) being the holder of a licence, is aggrieved by the revocation or suspension thereof, or by any variation of the conditions attached thereto,
may within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner appeal to the Appeal Tribunal to be constituted under this Part of this Act (in this Part of this Act referred to as "the Tribunal").
(7) Where the Minister proposes to appoint a person to be a member or deputy member of the Tribunal, he shall, before making the appointment, require the person whom lie proposes to appoint to declare whether he has any, and if se what, financial interest in any undertaking which provides facilities for the transport of goods.
(15) Where a person who has applied for a new licence in substitution for a licence held by him and in force at the date of his application appeals to the Tribunal, the existing licence shall, notwithstanding the provisions of this. Part of this Act as to the duration of licences, continue in force until the appeal has been disposed of, without prejudice however to the exercise in the meantime of the powers of suspension and revocation conferred by this Part of this Act.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYmoved, in subsection (1) (c), to leave out "or by any variation of the conditions attached thereto." The noble Marquess said: This is a. drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 4, leave out from ("thereof") to the end of line 5.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
EARL HOWE: The noble Marquess says that this is a drafting Amendment, but it seems to me that the proposal is to omit words which permit of an appeal to the Tribunal against the variation of the conditions of a licence, and I should like to ask the noble Marquess why it is desired to omit these words at this stage, observing that it was not considered necessary to do so when the matter was before the House of Commons.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: In amplification of this drafting Amendment, I would point out that an appeal against a refusal to make a variation is already provided for in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of Clause 13.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I understand that the noble Marquess is good enough to accept the next amendment and therefore I formally move the insertion of the words appearing in the Marshalled List.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 42, at end insert ("If any person being a member or deputy member of the Tribunal acquires any financial interest in any undertaking which provides facilities for the transport of goods he shall within four weeks after so doing give notice thereof in writing to the Minister specifying the interest so acquired and the Minister after taking the matter into consideration may, if he thinks fit, declare that such person has vacated his office").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (9), a manuscript Amendment, to leave out the word "may" ["Such rules may provide"], and insert "shall." The noble Viscount said: I have not had an opportunity of approaching the noble Marquess on this question, and I therefore do not wish to press it to-night; but if your Lordships will refer to subsection (9) on page 17 of the Bill and will look at line 12, you will see that it reads "Such rules may provide that an appellant shall be entitled to be heard in person, in support of his appeal, or by counsel, solicitor or agent." If your Lordships will look at Clause 24 of the Bill, which deals with regulations made under the Bill, you will observe that it reads: "Any regulations made by the Minister under this Act shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as may be after they are made," and that they may be annulled. It seems to me rather a peculiar position that an appellant in a case of this sort should not be entitled to be heard in person or by his counsel or agent, and therefore I do hope that the noble Marquess will consider the matter between now and the Report stage, and if he agrees, I should be very much obliged to him if he would himself move the Amendment, because unfortunately I cannot myself be present.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 12, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").—(Viscount Beetle of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Viscount who moved this Amendment is such a determined purist that I am diffident in venturing to cross swords with him, but I am informed that the words "the Tribunal may" are the phraseology which is invariably used, and consequently that phraseology has been adopted in the present Bill.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The noble Marquess has not given me any precedent for this. If he can do that between now and Wednesday next I shall be very much obliged, because if I cannot be present myself on that occasion I can get some other noble Lord to move the Amendment for me. In the meantime I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (15), after the second "licence," to insert "other than a short-term licence." The noble Marquess said: The effect of this Amendment is to make it clear that it is only a licence for the full currency period which can continue in force pending an appeal to the Tribunal, otherwise a short-term licence which had been granted only for a special purpose or for administrative convenience might continue indefinitely pending the decision of an appeal.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 6, after the second ("licence") insert ("other than a short-term licence").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14:
Records as to hours of work, journeys, loads, &.
14.—(1) Subject to the provisions of reguiations made under this section, the holder of a licence shall cause to be kept, in accordance with the regulations, current records showing—

(a)as respects every person employed by him as a driver or statutory attendant of an authorised vehicle, the times at which that person commenced and ceased work and particulars of his intervals of rest;

(b)as respects every journey of a vehicle on which goods are carried under the licence, particulars of the itinerary of the

237

journey and of the greatest weight of goods carried by the vehicle at any one time during the period to which the record relates and the description and destination of tie goods carried,

and the regulations may make provision for requiring drivers of authorised vehicles to carry the prescribed documents and to make the prescribed entries therein.
(2) The Minister shall consult with the Transport Advisory Council constituted under this Act as to the form in which records are to be kept under regulations made under this section.
(3)Subject to the provisions of the regulations made under this section a. licensing authority may dispense with the observance, as respects the carriage of goods under a licence granted by him, of any requirement of those regulations, and may grant such a dispensation either generally, or as respects any particular vehicle, or as respects the use of vehicles for any particular purpose, but he shall not grant such a dispensation unless he is satisfied that it is not reasonably practicable, having regard to the nature of the business concerned, for the requirement dispensed with to be observed:
provided that in the case of vehicles used in the business of agriculture, or in the business of a travelling showman, he shall grant a dispensation except in so far as he is satisfied that for special reasons the observance of any requirement of the regulations is desirable as respects particular vehicles, or as respects vehicles used for any particular purpose.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 21, at end insert ("keep or").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQESS OF LONDONDERRY: The object of the next Amendment is to ensure that an owner-driver shall not be relieved of his duty of keeping a record.
Amendment moved—
Page 18. line 28, at end insert ("and the like information as respects himself when acting. as such a driver or attendant").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL THE EARL OF KINNOULL moved, in subsection (1), at the end of paragraph (a), to insert "and of the wages paid and the method of payment." The noble Earl said: I must apologise for putting both this Amendment and two subsequent Amendments at such short notice. The object of this Amendment is to include the amount of wages paid and the method
238
of payment on the record cards of drivers, because there are several different methods of payment of drivers. There is, for instance, payment on mileage loading, in which case the driver gets nothing, or practically nothing, on his return journey when his vehicle is empty, and it tends to make him hurry, and possibly causes accidents through excessive speed. Also there is payment made by way of tonnage bonus. I should say here that in most cases—in fact in nearly all cases—there is a small overriding wage paid, but it is totally inadequate. It has been felt that in the case of an accident it would help the police when taking particulars to see on the record card the amount of wages and the method of payment in order to fix the onus of blame
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 28, at end insert ("and of the wages paid and the method of payment").—(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: This Amendment has been handed in by the noble. Lord in manuscript. The effect of the Amendment is to require records to be kept by the holders of licences of the wages paid to the drivers. I think that would be regarded as inquisitorial. The records to be kept under this Bill are those which have a bearing on public safety; by which I mean the prevention of overloading and excessive speed, and also excessive hours of driving. I think this extra proviso which the noble Lord desires is really unnecessary. If a man is dissatisfied with his wages he has a proper redress. He can apply to his trade union and have these matters looked into. I am inclined to think that to have this added is quite unnecessary.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD ILIFFE LORD ILIFFE moved, in subsection (1) (b), to leave out "the" ["the licence"] and insert "an A or B". The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to make it unnecessary for C lience holders to keep records except in regard to the hours of work and intervals of rest. The C licence holder would be obliged to keep records in respect of persons employed by him, and the times at which the persons commence and cease work, and particulars of intervals of rest. But if this Amendment is agreed to it would not be necessary for him to keep records in respect of every journey of a

239
vehicle in which goods are carried, particulars of the itinerary of the journey and weight of goods carried, and records with regard to the description and destination of the goods carried. Noble Lords will realise that vehicles which are subject to C licences are vehicles which only carry goods the property of the licence holder, and do not convey goods for hire or reward. In my opinion it is most undesirable that the licensees should be required to provide records which really seem to serve no useful purpose.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 30, leave out ("the") and insert ("an A or B").—(Lord Iliffe.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I am afraid the Government cannot accept this Amendment. The object of journey records is to ensure that the statutory limits of weight and speed are not exceeded. Vehicles operating under C licences are just as likely to be guilty of infringements of these limits as those operating under any other licences. I honestly cannot see that there is justification for a complete exemption of C licence holders from these requirements. I would like to remind the noble Lord that regulations with regard to these records will only be made after consultation with the Transport Advisory Council, upon which the owners of goods transport vehicles will be represented. Furthermore, the licensing authority has already, or will have, powers under this Bill to dispense with the observance, of certain regulations if the situation warrants it. I dare say there is a good reason for exempting some C licence holders in certain cases from having to record certain facts which would be applicable in the case of other holders of C licences, but there are powers already in the Bill for the licensing authority to do so.
LORD COZENS-HARDY: I desire to support this Amendment particularly in relation to the words in paragraph (b). Why should it be necessary to give in the case of the C licences the description and destination of the goods carried? These records would give complete information as to the holders' customers and the amount of trade done with those customers. That is very important information which a C holder should not, I submit, be required to divulge, and under
240
the paragraph he would have to divulge it to any person authorised by a police officer. I submit that the requirement to give information of that kind in regard to C licences is unnecessary to achieve the purpose of the section.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (1) (b), to leave out "the itinerary of." The noble Marquess said: The retention of the words "the itinerary of" might be held to require the record of journeys in unnecessary detail, and the specification of every village through which a vehicle passed on a particular journey.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 31, leave out ("the itinerary of").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (1) (b), after "weight," to insert "or number of packages." The noble Earl said: I am moving this Amendment in order to try to secure, if I can, an answer from the Minister with reference to the question of weight as against the number of packages. This Amendment was moved in another place and the Minister, I understand, said he would consider any other form of words if they could be suggested, or if his Department could think out any other alternative form of words in the meantime. I therefore move the Amendment in order to get an explanation, if I can, from the Minister.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 32, after ("weight") insert ("or number of packages").—(Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I can only repeat what I have said, that the object of keeping the record is to see there is no infringement as regards weight and speed. As far as weight is concerned, we know the number of packages, and if you do not know their weight, to record it is no use to any one. I think that is perfectly clear. I had not realised that the Minister in another place had undertaken to see if he could find words which might meet the arguments put forward by the noble Earl's friends, but I can only repeat to him that there are already regulations which make provision

241
for exemptions in certain circumstances where the nature of the work being done warrants it.
EARL HOWE: The Amendment was moved because there are many descriptions of goods which are carried about the country where the weight cannot possibly be given, such as timber, which is measured by feet, and there are other cargoes of various descriptions, but if the Minister is satisfied that this clause is all right as it stands I will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD COZENS-HARDY LORD COZENS-HARDY moved in the prosviso in subsection (3), after the first "vehicles," to insert "operated under C licence or." The noble Lord said: For reasons I advanced in connection with an earlier Amendment I fail to see that it is necessary to require such things as the description and destination of goods carried to be recorded in order to secure that there is no infringement of the regulation. Why is it necessary to have a description of goods carried in order to see whether the man has gone too fast or has worked too long? For that reason I suggest the addition of the words "operated under a C licence."
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 12, after ("vehicles") insert ("operated under a C licence or").—(Lord Cozens-Hardy.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I cannot accept the Amendment moved by the noble Lord. Its effect would be to exempt all holders of C licences from the requirements as to the keeping of records, etc., laid down in the clause. It goes even further than the earlier Amendment in the names of my noble friend Lord Howe and others at page 18, line 30, in that if the present Amendment were adopted the holder of a C licence would also be exempted from the requirement to keep records showing the times of work and rest of drivers and statutory attendants. It follows, therefore, a fortiori that as the Amendment in the names of my noble friend Lord Howe and others has been rejected the present Amendment should fall.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15:
Enforcement of obligation to maintain goods vehicles in serviceable condition.
(2) An examiner shall at any time, on production if so required of his authority, he entitled to enter and inspect any goods vehicle, and for that purpose to detain the vehicle during such time as is required for the inspection, and may at any time which is reasonable, having regard to the circumstances of the case, enter any premises on which ho has reason to believe that a goods vehicle is kept and, if any person obstructs an examiner in the performance of his duty, he shall be guilty of an offence under this Part of this Act.
(3) If on the inspection of a goods vehicle it appears to an examiner that the vehicle, owing to any defects therein, is, or is likely to become, unfit for service until the defects have been remedied, he may prohibit the use of the vehicle on a road for the carriage of goods:
Provided that, where in the opinion of the examiner the defects are such as can be remedied within any period not exceeding ten days and are not defects which involve immediate risk to public safety, the prohibition shall not conic into operation before the expiration of that period, and shall not come into operation upon the expiration of that period if any examiner, being satisfied that the defects have been or are in course of being remedied, withdraws the prohibiting before the expiration of that period.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "kept" and insert "at the time." The noble Viscount said: Clause 15, subsection 2, reads as follows:
"An examiner …may at any time which is reasonable, having regard to the circumstances of the case, enter any premises on which he has reason to believe that a goods vehicle is kept …"
I think that the word "kept" may be held to have a rather restricted meaning. The vehicle would be kept generally at some central garage, but it might be temporarily on some other premises and I think that an examiner ought to have the right to enter and inspect the vehicle at any place. If your Lordships accept my Amendment he will be able to do so.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 8, leave out ("kept") and insert ("at the time").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I do not find myself altogether in disagreement with the noble Viscount, but I think it would be best to keep the wording as it is in the Bill. The intention

243
which I think the noble Viscount has in mind is that a vehicle is being "kept" on whatever premises it happens to be at the time. The wording is the same as in subsection (3) of Section 69 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, and if it were altered in the present case some doubt might be thrown on the scope of the section in the Road Traffic Act. Therefore I suggest that the noble Viscount might withdraw his Amendment.
VICOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: After the explanation given by the noble Marquess, I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in the proviso to subsection (3), to substitute "forty-eight hours" for "ten days". The noble Viscount said: Under Section 71 of the Road Traffic Act, forty-eight hours is the time allowed. There is a very great difference in this Bill which extends the time to ten days. I understand there are some difficulties about reducing the time to forty-eight hours because Sunday or Christmas Day might intervene, but I should have thought that five days would give ample time and I throw out that suggestion for the noble Marquess to consider.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 20, leave out ("ten days") and insert ("forty-eight hours").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
EARL HOWE: I should like to be allowed to say that those for whom I speak very much object to the proposal to reduce the time stated in the Bill from ten days to forty-eight hours. They say it would not give them time in all cases to remedy even minor defects. I cannot see why there should be any objection to the ten days.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: If the accident is slight it can easily be remedied in five days.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think the noble Earl has really put the case against this Amendment. As regards goods vehicles the period has intentionally been extended in the present Bill to ten days. For this there are various reasons. In the first place goods vehicles in many cases have a wider area of operation than passenger-carrying vehicles which operate on fixed routes and gener-
244
ally return to their headquarters either the same day or perhaps the day following. Again in the case of passenger vehicles, the convenience and comfort of passengers have to be taken into consideration as well as their safety. I think also that it should be noted that the proviso in question is governed through-out by the consideration that the examiner shall be satisfied that the defects are not such as would involve immediate risk to public safety.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Clause 16:
Further powers of examiners and powers of police constables.
16.—(1) An examiner may at any time, on production if so required of his authority, require the person in charge of any goods vehicle to produce, and permit him to inspect and copy, any document which by or by regulations made under this Part of this Act is required to be carried on, or by the driver of, the vehicle and for that purpose may detain the vehicle for such time as is required for the inspection and copying and, if any person, when required by an examiner so to do, fails to produce to the examiner any such document as aforesaid, or to permit him to inspect or copy any such document, that person shall he guilty of an offence under this Part of this Act.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (1), after "Act" to insert "or the Road Traffic Act, 1930". The noble Marquess said: The Amendment which I have the honour to move is for the purpose of enabling examiners and certifying officers to inspect documents required to be carried under the Road Traffic Act, 1930. By that I mean driving licences and certificates of insurance, as well as documents required to be carried under the provisions of this Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 21ine 39, after ("Act") insert ("or the Road Traffic Act, 1930").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved to amend the proposed Amendment by inserting, after "1930":
"Provided that if within five days after an examiner has required the production of a driver's licence or a certificate of insurance issued under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, the driver produces the licence or the certificate as the case may be in person at such police station as may have been specified by him at the time its production was required he shall not be convicted of an

245
offence under this subsection by reason only et failure to produce the licence or certificate to the examiner."
The noble Earl said: The purpose of my Amendment to the proposed Amendment is to make it quite clear that the examiner cannot require, like a police man, production of the insurance certificate and the driver's licence. Noble Lords will no doubt remember that under the Road Traffic Act permission is given to a motor driver, if he dues not carry his licence and his insurance certificate on the vehicle, to produce it at any police station he may choose within five days. I submit that it is undesirable to force drivers to carry their insurance certificates and their driving licences on their vehicles. They can easily get lost, and they can easily get damaged. It is very much better from the point of view of the authorities that they should be left at home. If a vehicle happens to be stolen it would be very much better that the insurance certificate should not be on the vehicle. I cannot see any reason why the examiner should wish to know whether a vehicle is insured. It is very necessary for the police to know, but I do not think it is any part of the duties of an examiner to lied out whether a driver has a driving licence and an insurance certificate.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
After ("1930") insert the said proviso.—(Earl Howe.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I am not in disagreement with the mover of this Amendment, but I would venture to say that the Amendment does not come in the right place nor is it very conveniently worded. This, however, is a matter which we have under consideration and it can be dealt with on Report.
EARL HOWE: After what the noble Marquess has said I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 17 to 22 agreed to.
Clause 23:
General power of making regulations.
23. The Minister may make regulations for any purpose for which regulations may be made under this Part of this Act and for
246
prescribing anything which may be prescribed under this Part of this Act and generally for the purpose of carrying this Part of this Act into effect and, in particular, but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provisions, may make regulations with respect to any of the following matters,—
(d) the means by which vehicles are to be identified, whether by plates, marks or otherwise, as being authorised vehicles under a licence;
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment standing in my name is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 8, leave out ("under a licence").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: May I point out that the insertion of the new clause after Clause 24 will require an alteration in the title? There is no Amendment on the Paper to that effect.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 24 agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after Clause 24, to insert the following new clause:
Variation of traffic areas.
".—(1) Whereas it is expedient that the existing traffic areas under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, in England should be varied—

(a) by the abolition of the Southern Traffic Area and the transfer of the areas constituting it to other Traffic Areas; and

(b) by the transfer of part of the East Midland Traffic Area to the Eastern Traffic Area:

Now, therefore, as from the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-four (in this section referred to as "the said date")—

(i) England shall be divided into the Traffic Areas specified in the first column of the First Schedule to this Act and those Traffic Areas shall consist of the several areas respectively specified in the second column of that Schedule;

(ii) the said First Schedule to this Act shall he substituted for Part I of the Third Schedule to the Road Traffic Act, 1930, and references to that Schedule in any enactment shall be construed accordingly;

(iii)the offices of the Traffic Commissioners for the Southern Traffic Area shall he abolished.

(2) The Minister may by order make such consequential and incidental provisions as appear to him to be necessary or expedient

247
in consequence of the variations of traffic areas effected by this section and, in particular, but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing words, provision may be made in the order with respect to—

(a)the effect, as from the said date, of licences previously issued or backed, and consents previously given, by the Commissioners for any traffic area abolished or otherwise affected;

(b) the effect of applications for licences or consents made before the said date to the Commissioners for any traffic area abolished or otherwise affected, the Commissioners to whom applications relating to any such area may be made between the date of the order and the said date, and the Commissioners by whom and the places at which any such applications as aforesaid may be heard, either before or after the said date;

(c)the continuance of appeals pending at the said date against decisions of the Commissioners for any traffic area abolished or otherwise affected; and
(dthe recovery of any sums due at the said date to the Commissioners for any traffic area abolished.

(3) Any order made by the Minister under Section sixty-two of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, for varying the number or limits of traffic areas may contain such consequential and incidental provisions, including provisions with respect to any of the matters mentioned in the last preceding subsection, as appear to him to be necessary or expedient in consequence of the variations of areas to be effected by the order.
(4) For subsection (3) of the said Section sixty-two, there shall be substituted the following subsection:—
(3) An order made under this section shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and shall be of no effect unless and until it has been approved by a Resolution passed by each House of Parliament."
The noble Marquess said: I propose with your Lordships' permission to add a new Clause 25. Under the provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, England and Scotland are divided into thirteen traffic areas under Traffic Commissioners set up under that Act, for the licensing and control of public services of omnibuses and motor coaches. The constitution of the areas is set out in the Third Schedule to the Act of 1930. The main object of the present clause is to provide for the abolition of the Southern Area the headquarters of which are at Reading, and the distribution of this area among the adjacent areas. This course is being adopted for reasons of economy and more convenient administration. The clause at the same time provides for a readjustment of the boundary between the
248
Eastern Area and the East Midland Area. Although the decision to do away with the Southern Traffic Area as from 1st January, 1934, was reached in July last, it would not have been possible to conform with the procedure laid down in the Act of 1930, as the House of Lords would not have sat for the necessary 28 days before the 1st January, 1934. This last date cannot be altered as it is proposed that on that date the scheme for the licensing of goods vehicles provided for in the present Bill shall come into effect, and it is essential that the redistribution of the areas should take place at the same time. It has therefore proved necessary to provide for the abolition of the Southern Area in the present Bill. This course has the advantage of setting out the new areas in a complete Schedule which can readily be referred to.
Subsection (4) of the new clause substitutes the procedure of an affirmative Resolution on the part of each House of Parliament for the more cumbersome procedure laid down in the Act of 1930 with regard to any future orders made by the Minister for varying the number or limits of traffic areas. Subsection (2) of the clause provides that the Minister may by order make consequential and incidential provisions with regard to such matters, for example, as the effect of licences granted by the existing Commissioners for the Southern Area and the procedure to be followed in respect of applications pending before the same Commissioners. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 24, insert the said new clause.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I apologise to the noble Marquess. My remarks were meant for this Amendment, when I intervened a few moments ago and said that the title would require alteration.
EARL HOWE: The interests for which I speak are very much concerned at this proposed reallocation of the areas, and certain associations have already protested against the proposal. Objections have been made by local operators. I would like to point out to your Lordships that the Southern Traffic Area comprises the Counties of Oxford, Berkshire, Wiltshire, Dorset, Hants, the Isle of Wight, and part of Bucks. This area, I

249
submit to your Lordships, is found to be very convenient from the point of view of operators, and the administration of public service vehicles in the area on the whole has been extremely good and economical. The new arrangement involves adding parts of this area to the South-Eastern, Western and East-Midland Areas, which will not be nearly so convenient for the operators concerned, and certainly not any cheaper.
I submit to your Lordships that the work of the Southern Area now in progress will suffer considerable dislocation as a result of any such change. The Minister, as I think the noble Marquess has already pointed out, at first intended to make the alteration by Order-in-Council, and it is provided by Act, of Parliament that such Order must lie on the Table of each House for twenty-eight days. The Minister made an Order with reference to this matter on July 25, before both Houses rose, and time is now running out, but will not expire before the end of the present Session. Consequently the Order would have to be made again in the new Session, and the twenty-eight days will not expire till after the Christmas Recess. The operators affected object strongly to the matter being rushed, by adding a clause to the Bill at the end of its progress through Parliament. They wish to have the full time for laying objections which they had under the procedure of the proposed Order. In effect the proposal which the noble Marquess has laid before us curtails the statutory period which Parliament in its wisdom has provided for objections to be laid. I submit that before we pass this new clause we ought to ask for further explanation from the noble Marquess.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I cannot help feeling that there is a good deal in what the noble Earl has said in protest, with regard to this clause. The clause has appeared only within the last few days, and I think that so drastic an alteration ought to be before Parliament for some little time, in order that the interests concerned, and members of both Houses, should have time to consider it. It is really undesirable that such a great alteration of the Bill, which Lord Bertie of Thame thinks would need an alteration of the title, should be introduced by a side-wind, within three days of the end of the Session, and without adequate
250
time for discussion. I listened to the statement which the noble Marquess made, and I did not hear any really strong argument why the Southern Area should be abolished. I think we ought to know whether the local authorities of the Southern Area are satisfied with the alteration; whether the alteration is due to any break-down, or to the unsatisfactory character of the administration of the traffic in that area; whether, indeed, there is anything except mere economy on the side of the change; and whether efficiency is being sacrificed to a rather petty economy. I agree with the noble Earl that we have not had sufficient explanation of so drastic a change.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): May I be allowed to give an explanation, and I agree that some explanation is necessary. It is not quite accurate to say that this is a change suddenly sprung upon Parliament. The truth of what happened is that under the Act of 1930 there can be a redistribution by Order-in-Council. That has to lie on the Table of each House for twenty-eight sitting days. In fact this alteration was made by Order-in-Council on July 25, and but for the accident that there are not twenty-eight sitting days between July 25 and January 1 it would have come into force by January 1; but in the result it would come into force, if we did nothing, some time later on—indeed it might run into February if we had such a vacation as no doubt the noble Lord opposite and I would like to enjoy. That, however, will not do, because the goods-licensing plans which are embodied in the present Bill come into force on January 1, and you must have got, therefore, the redistribution effected by that time.
In those circumstances, although it is true we are putting it into the Bill at a late stage—for which I am sorry, because apparently the Ministry had not realised that twenty-eight Parliamentary days would not have been properly used by the time that the Christmas Recess arrived—we are not making a new proposal at the last moment. We are making a proposal which already Parliament has said can be done by Order-in-Council, with regard to which an Order-in-Council has been made—and published, of course—many months ago, and in regard to which therefore there has been ample time to

251
consider the point in behalf of those interested. The question is an important one because of the enormous and unwieldy size to which the Metropolitan Area has grown—it has nearly wiped out the South-Eastern Area—and which has rendered it imperative to have some reallocation of the Southern Area in order to make the different areas at all workable and convenient. Those are the reasons for the provision which your Lordships are asked to embody in this Bill, and I should like to say, with regard to the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, that as usual he is quite accurate when he says that it will involve an alteration of the title of the Bill, which we shall have to make later on.
EARL HOWE: I do not gather that the noble and learned Viscount contests the statement I made just now that the statutory Parliamentary time allowed, twenty-eight days, has in effect been curtailed. I quite realise the force of what he has said, but at the same time I should like to consult further with my friends, and, if necessary, put down something else on the Report stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to insert the following new clause after the clause last inserted:
Extension of s. 63 (7) of the Road Traffic Act, 1930.
".—(1) The power of the Minister under subsection (7) of Section sixty-three of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, to appoint a person to act as deputy to the Chairman of the Traffic Commissioners for any traffic area in the case of the illness, incapacity or absence of the Chairman may be exercised also if the Minister considers that, owing to the number of applications under Part 1, of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, and under this Part of this Act, the duties to be performed by the Chairman (or any deputy appointed by reason of the illness, incapacity or absence of the Chairman) cannot conveniently or efficiently be performed by one person.
(2) A person appointed under this section shall he appointed upon such terms and conditions, including conditions as to the time which he is to devote to the duties of his office, as the Minister may determine, and shall act for the Chairman in such matters, whether arising under this Act or under the said Act of 1930, as the Chairman (or any deputy appointed by reason of the illness, incapacity or absence of the Chairman) may from time to time direct, or as the Minister may from time to time by general directions require, and for that pur-
252
pose shall exercise and perform all the powers and duties of the Chairman.
(3) This section shall have effect with respect to the Metropolitan Traffic Area with the substitution of a reference to the Traffic Commissioner for that area for any reference to a Chairman of Traffic Commissioners."
The noble Marquess said: The Minister already has power under subsection (7) of Section 63 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, to appoint a person to act as deputy to the Chairman of the Traffic Commissioners for any traffic area, "in the case of illness, incapacity or absence." The object of the present clause is to enable the Minister to appoint a deputy on grounds other than those I have mentioned, that is, if the Minister considers that, owing to the number of applications under Part IV of the Road Traffic Act, 1930 (as regards the licensing of passenger services), and under the present Bill (as regards the licensing of goods services) the duties to be performed by the Chairman "cannot conveniently or efficiently be performed by one person." The deputy so appointed would be in a position to act for the Chairman in matters arising either under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, or under the present Bill. The pressure of work will be so great, when the present Bill comes into operation, in some of the traffic areas, in particular the Metropolitan Area and in some of the areas covering the industrial districts in the North and the Midlands, that it may prove necessary to appoint a deputy, as a temporary measure at any rate, to assist the licensing authority. The volume of work that will follow the bringing into operation of the present Bill cannot be estimated with any accuracy and it is desirable that the Minister should have this power of providing relief to the licensing authority rather than that there should be any risk of a breakdown.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 24 insert the said new clause.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I understand that the next clause raises matters of controversy. Probably, therefore, this might be a convenient point to move that the House do resume.
Moved, That the House do now resume.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed accordingly.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE (No. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, when I addressed the House last week on behalf of a Department which I do not serve I thought it expedient to read my brief. To-day I represent seven or eight Departments, in none of which I serve, and I have a brief which is certainly correspondingly large. I see some anxiety lest I should again read my brief, but I do not propose to do so. In fact, there are only two points to which I need draw attention. This Bill is in. its usual form, and the two points to which I shall refer are in the Schedule. The first is the Dyestuffs (Import Regulation) Act, 1920. That Act was due to come to an end on January 14, 1931, but your Lordships saw fit to put it into the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill in order that the dyestuffs industry should be protected. That has been carried on till the present time. Last year the matter was referred to the Import Duties Advisory Committee, and they have now issued a Report, published as Command Paper 4411, in which the action taken by your Lordships has been supported by that Committee. The Government have announced in another place that they intend to give effect to the Report of that Committee, but it is possible, of course, that that legislation will not have passed both Houses of Parliament before the end of this year. It is, therefore, proposed that this Act should be again included in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, but I have every reason to believe that this is the last time it will appear in this Bill. That is true of several other matters which appear in the Schedule, but perhaps I should be unwise if I specified them more particularly.
The other point to which I wish to refer is the last item in the Schedule, the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930. We had some debate last year on this matter. The Lord Chairman raised it, and also Lord Rankeillour, and objection was taken to Section 1. It is now proposed that Section 1 should come to an end when schemes which are before the various Departments on December 31
254
next, that is to say in about seven weeks' time, have been dealt with, and that no further schemes shall then be considered, and Section 1 will drop. I hope your Lordships will feel that, in spite of a debate opposed to this proposal in another place, your Lordships' action has been justified, and that the Government have acceded to a request made last year. The remainder of the Act is being continued, and I understand that the Lord Chairman is even now not content, and wants to raise a question about Section 2. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Earl Stanhope.)
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I am very glad to see that the Government have thought fit to withdraw from their present Bill Section 1 of the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930, which has been regarded with some misgiving both by my noble predecessor and myself, and that misgiving was, I think, shared by many of your Lordships. I gather that the Ministry of Transport, the Scottish Office and the Ministry of Health altogether have only had seventeen schemes under Section 1 since this Act has been in operation, and there are four now under consideration. I think the very small number of schemes for which the Act has been utilised justifies the Government in reverting to the ordinary practice of Parliament.
As regards Section 2, which my noble friend mentioned, I understand the object of continuing this section is that the special procedure which it authorises is regarded as convenient for the purpose of acquiring land for public works, but I am doubtful whether it is vital to the purpose or whether the more usual procedure whereby it is necessary to come to Parliament would not really suffice. However, it is a fact that 298 cases have occurred where this procedure has been taken, and I understand it is intended to review this and possibly abolish it in another year. I think your Lordships will agree that the special procedure which is already in force for certain purposes, and permits not coming to Parliament, is one that should be subjected to careful scrutiny. But there is another point. Section 2 extends the purpose for which local authorities and

255
statutory undertakings may acquire land compulsorily, to enable them to provide aerodromes, open spaces, town halls, and so forth. This is a measure which is designed to increase employment or to facilitate works to diminish unemployment, and I hardly think that this particular use which is made of it, to acquire land for this purpose, is satisfactory. The acquisition of land for aerodromes, town halls, and so on is a matter for permanency, it is not a question of unemployment relief. It is a matter in which there is plenty of time to proceed in the ordinary way. It is not really germane to the Act, and I think it ought to come under different legislation. Certainly it should not come under a temporary measure. I venture to ask my noble friend what action he proposes to take to put this matter on a firm basis.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, it is quite true Section 2 is not intimately connected with unemployment, but I disagree entirely with my noble friend when he says it has no effect.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I did not say it had no effect. What I did say was it was not necessary. In buying land for aerodromes or town halls it is not necessary to have this emergency procedure. I did not say it would have no effect on unemployment; I quite agree it has.
EARL STANHOPE: Obviously, if an aerodrome is to be made or a town hall built, the sooner it can be begun the better for those who are going to get some part in the making of these particular things. From that point of view the shorter procedure is well worth while. The only alternative is to proceed by Provisional Order, which takes about twelve or eighteen months, and I am informed that the time taken under the procedure of this Act is one-quarter of that and the cost is about one-quarter. As the law stands at present, local authorities have no power to acquire land
256
for aerodromes except by agreement, and I understand that the Secretary of State for Air is considering what steps should be taken to put this on a regular basis. He will, of course, do so before this Bill comes before your Lordships in a year's time. As regards the other Ministries affected, particularly Transport, they all have promised to consider the whole matter. So have the Ministry of Health; and in this way the whole question will be fully reconsidered before the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill comes before your Lordships again. I cannot of course give a definite promise. My noble friend knows as well as I do how difficult it is to get legislation through both Houses of Parliament, and therefore it may happen that this Act will reappear, but it is the intention of all the Ministries concerned to give further consideration to the matter before the Expiring Laws Bill appears next year.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, may I in a word express my gratitude to Lord Hailsham and the Government for leaving out Section 1? It involved a very dangerous precedent, and I am glad to see it gone.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ROAD TRAFFIC (COMPENSATION FOR ACCIDENTS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of Day read for resuming the debate on the Report stage.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I understand my noble friend Lord Danes-fort is not here. It is probably convenient that this Bill should be postponed until to-morrow, as this is not quite the time to indulge in contentious discussion.
Debate put off till to-morrow.
House adjourned at five minutes minutes before eight o'clock.