Sitting of 7 November 1933

Preamble
The House—after the Adjournment on 28th July for the Autumn Recess—met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS [Lords].
Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with—MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, brought from the Lords and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely: —
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Worthing) Bill [Lords].
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Wellington, Salop) Bill [Lords].
Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.

WARRANTS FOR NEW WRITS.
MR. SPEAKER informed the House that he had issued, during the Adjournment, Warrants for New Writs, namely:—
For County of Derby (Clay Cross Division) in the room of Charles Duncan, Esq., deceased.
For Borough of Fulham (East Division) in the room of Lieut.-Colonel Sir Kenyon Pascoe Vaughan-Morgan, O.B.E., deceased.
For County of Ayr and Bute (Kilmarnock Division) in the room of the Right Hon. Craigie Mason Aitchison, K.C. (His Majesty's Justice Clerk and President of the Second Division of the Court of Session in Scotland).
For County of York, West Riding (Skipton Division) in the room of Ernest Roy Bird, esquire, deceased.
For Borough of Manchester (Rusholme Division) in the room of Sir Frank Boyd Merriman, O.B.E., K.C. (President of the Probate, Divorce, and Admiralty Division of the High Court of Justice).
For County of Parts of Kesteven and Rutland (Rutland and Stamford Division) in the room of Neville Woodford Smith-Carington, esquire, deceased.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  SCOTLAND (ILLEGAL TRAWLING).
  Mr. KIRKWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has considered the representations from the Kyle of Lochalsh on behalf of west, coast fishermen who have suffered damage because of illegal trawling within the three-mile area; and will he consider the advisability of the Government proceed-

  3
  ing with the construction of a new fishery cruiser speedy enough to deal with the most modern trawlers offending within the three-mile limit?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir Godfrey Collins): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The whole question of illegal trawling is engaging my close attention including the possibility of strengthening the protection fleet.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that for the last 10 years the Secretary of State for Scotland has given practically the same answer and yet nothing is done; and that the fishing industry is faced with ruin?
  Sir IAN MACPHERSON: Are not all the relevant facts relating to illegal trawling in the right hon. Gentleman's Department, and is he not now justified in taking immediate action?
  Sir G. COLLINS:In reply to the latter question, I think that I have all the relevant information at my disposal, and, as I have stated, this question is engaging my close attention, and I hope at a later date to make a statement on the subject. In reply to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), I am not aware of all the different answers given by my predecessors during the last 10 years. As the hon. Gentleman well knows, this question has engaged the attention of Secretaries of State not only for 10 years but for 20 or more years, and I hope very shortly to be able to make some announcement on the subject.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    OVERTIME.
    Mr. GORDON MACDONALDasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is now in a position to state by what method he intends to reduce the amount of overtime worked in and about the coal mines of Great Britain?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Ernest Brown): This question has now been raised officially by the Miners' Federation. I discussed it at a meeting I had recently with their executive, and they have given their support to a proposal somewhat similar to that made by
    4
    the hon. Member in July for a special investigation into the problem over the country as a whole. I have agreed to this course, and I am considering the most convenient and effective way of carrying out the inquiry without delay.

    OIL EXTRACTION.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines whether he has any further information to give the House on the extraction of oil from
    coal?
    Mr. E. BROWN: No, Sir, not at present.

    RINGROSE AUTOMATIC ALARM.
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines whether replies have yet been received from the various interested parties, including the inventor, to whom the report on the pit trials of the Ring-rose automatic alarms was submitted for consideration; and, if so, what action has been taken or is proposed to be taken on the matter?
    Mr. E. BROWN: The inventor has circulated in print his comments on the pit trials. I have since discussed with the Miners' Federation and the Deputies' Federation tile general position now reached, and last week, following those discussions, I received resolutions passed by their Executives to the effect that a proportion of the men engaged at the working faces ought to be provided with some approved type of firedamp detector. Both resolutions include in that term the flame safety lamp as well as other types of detector. The resolution of the Miners' Federation asks that such provision shall be made compulsory on a definite scale and that the choice of the detector shall rest with the workmen. The resolution of the Deputies' Federation states that they are not yet agreed among themselves as to the proportion of men to be provided with detectors or as to the places in the mine where detectors ought to be used. I am seeing Mr. Ringrose in a few days. As I have not received any communication from the two other representative bodies concerned, I am asking them to discuss the matter with me; when that has been done I will make a statement as to the action I propose to take to deal with the general problem.
    Mr. SMITH: Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication when he will be in a position to make that statement?
    Mr. BROWN: I cannot say at present, but, if the hon. Gentleman will put down a question in the first stages of the new Session, I hope to be able to make a statement then.

    IRISH FREE STATE.
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he has any statement to make on the subject of our relations with the Irish Free State?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): I explained the position in the House on July 27th, and I am not at present able to add anything to the statement which I then made, except that the Government have been watching most carefully the developments which have since taken place in the Irish Free State.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    RUSSIA.
    Mr. ANSTRUTHER-GRAYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any trade agreement has yet been signed with Russia; and, if so, in what terms?
    Mr. MANDERasked the President of the Board of Trade the present position with regard to negotiations for an Anglo-Russian trade agreement?
    Mr. T. SMITHasked the President of the Board of Trade the present position of the negotiations with the Soviet Government for a new trade agreement?
    Mr. SMITHERSasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement and give the present position of the negotiations for a trade agreement with the Soviet Government?
    Mr. MITCHESONasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is in a position to make any statement with regard to the future commercial relationships between this country and Soviet Russia?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): Negotiations are still proceeding with the Soviet Delegation. Progress has been made but it
    6
    is too early yet to make any more detailed statement on the subject.
    Mr.ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in August, Russia imported into this country more than £2,000,000 worth of goods, whereas we sent to Russia only a few hundred thousand pounds worth of goods; and will not the Government take action to prevent this unsatisfactory balance of trade until some agreement can be reached?
    Sir MURDOCH McKENZIE WOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the herring fishing industry is anxiously awaiting the result of these negotiations, and can he give some idea whether an agreement is likely to be reached within the next week or so?
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the last temporary agreement with the Soviet lasted for 12 years, and will he see that a definite statement is made with regard to the claims of British nationals, and that they are not put off by being told that there will be a subsequent treaty?
    Mr. T. GRIFFITHS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that America is entering into negotiations with Russia—.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise out of the answer.
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: All these various facts will be taken into consideration.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Cannot the question of British nationals be dealt with in this agreement?

    FOREIGN TRADE.
    Captain P. MACDONALDasked the President of the Board of Trade how the proportion of British imports from and exports to Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and the Argentine for the past four months, respectively, compare with similar proportions for the same four months in 1932?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: As the answer involves a number of figures, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    Particulars of the aggregate value of our trade with individual countries are normally compiled in respect of calendar years and quarterly periods only and the figures for four months are not, therefore, readily available. The following table shows the total declared value of merchandise imported into and exported from the United Kingdom, as registered during the three months ended 30th September, 1932 and 1933, respectively, together with the amount and proportion consigned from and to each of the countries specified.

    —

    July to September, 1932.

    July to September, 1933.

    Amount.

    Proportion of total.

    Amount.

    Proportion of total.

    £'000.

    Percent.

    £ 000.

    Percent.

    Total imports of which consigned from:

    …

    160,243

    100.0

    167,486

    100.0

    Germany

    …

    7,300

    4.6

    7,569

    4.5

    Denmark

    …

    10,995

    6.9

    9,834

    5.9

    Norway

    …

    1,906

    1.2

    1,821

    1.1

    Sweden

    …

    3,290

    2.1

    4,962

    3.0

    Argentine Republic

    …

    12,600

    7.9

    10,6115

    6.3

    Total domestic exports of which consigned to:

    …

    84,074

    100.0

    93,100

    100.0

    Germany

    …

    3,273

    3.9

    3,981

    4 3

    Denmark

    …

    2,282

    2.7

    2,971

    3.2

    Norway

    …

    1,429

    1.7

    1,353

    1.5

    Sweden

    …

    1,550

    1.8

    1,889

    2.0

    Argentine Republic

    …

    2,886

    3.4

    3,398

    3.7

    Total re exports of which consigned to:

    …

    9,698

    100.0

    11,960

    100.0

    Germany

    …

    1,695

    17.5

    2,086

    17.4

    Denmark

    …

    99

    1.0

    112

    0.9

    Norway

    …

    108

    1.1

    69

    0.6

    Sweden

    …

    142

    1.5

    137

    1.1

    Argentine Republic

    …

    40

    0.4

    52

    0.4

    JAPANESE COMPETITION.
    Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to make any further statement with regard to the outcome of the discussions in India between representatives of the Indian, British, and Japanese cotton industries with regard to the allocation of world markets?
    Mr. HAMMERSLEYasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a report on the progress of the negotiations respecting Japanese competition?
    Captain DOWERasked the President of the Board of Trade the result up to the present time of any negotiations which have taken place with Japan with the object of restricting Japanese competition on existing lines; whether satis-
    8
    factory progress has been made and what further action is still to be taken?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Discussions regarding the Indian market for cotton and rayon textiles have taken place in India between a United Kingdom industrial delegation under the leadership of Sir William Clare Lees and representatives of the Indian and Japanese industries. A statement of the agreement reached between the United Kingdom delegation and certain representatives of the Indian Industry has already been published in the Press. Discussions are still proceeding between the Governments of India and the official Japanese delegation. The United Kingdom delegation are now on their way back to this country and ate due to arrive at the end of this week. On their return, the discussion of markets other than India will be commenced with

    9
    representatives of the Japanese industries, some of whom are already in this country where they have been making a preliminary examination of the position.
    Captain MACDONALD: Pending agreement or otherwise with the Japanese Government, are the British Government going to allow the dumping of Japanese goods into this country and our colonies indiscriminately without taking any action whatever?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The negotiations will proceed as rapidly as possible, and I hope that we shall be able to deal with these subjects in due course.
    Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDEMAN: Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea of what is actually happening in Lancashire on account of this Japanese competition?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, I think our information is very full and complete on that subject.
    Captain DOWER: Are the Government to be represented in the negotiations that are going to take place an London?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The Government will be represented and they will be kept fully informed of what takes place. They will have a representative present, I hope, at the discussions.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will the consumer be present at the discussions?

    TRADE AGREEMENTS AND NEGOTIATIONS.
    Captain P. MACDONALDasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to make any further statement regarding the Anglo-Argentine trade agreement and the negotiations arising out of this?
    Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Anglo-Argentine Agreement is now completed; and if the tariff concessions to this country by the Argentine Government will be published for the information of British industrial organisations?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The Supplementary Agreement provided for in Article 3 of the Convention of the 1st. May was signed at Buenos Aires on the 26th September. Particulars of the tariff concessions accorded by the Argentine Government to goods produced or manufactured in
    10
    the United Kingdom were published in the Board of Trade Journal for the 19th October and hon. Members can obtain a reprint of those particulars from the Stationery Office in the usual way.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: Has the complete document yet been translated?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I do not think the translation is quite complete yet, but, as my hon. Friend knows, there are a great many technical difficulties.
    Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a statement to the House on any trade agreements which have been in process of arrangement during the Parliamentary adjournment?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The negotiations with the Soviet Union and Argentina are the subject of other questions on the Paper. Apart from these the only active negotiations carried on during the Recess have been those with Finland, which resulted in an agreement signed on 29th September. The text of the agreement has been laid before the House.
    Mr. HANNON: May I ask whether, in the progress of these negotiations, the right hon. Gentleman is in consultation with representatives of industry and commerce in this country—before His Majesty's Government come to a conclusion with regard to the terms?
    Mr. HOLFORD KNIGHT: May I ask whether it is the main intention of these negotiations to promote British trade in every possible direction?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The answer to the question of my hon. and learned Friend is in the affirmative. With regard to the question put by the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon), I can say that we have kept in touch with all the industries which are concerned with Finland trade.

    UNITED STATES.
    Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade the figures representing the import and export trade of the United States with this country during the first nine months of the present year as compared with the corresponding periods of 1931 and 1932?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: As the answer involves a number of figures, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL. REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The following table shows the total declared value of merchandise imported into and exported from the United Kingdom in the trade with the United States of America, as registered during the periods specified.

    Period.

    Imports consigned from the United States.

    Exports consigned to the United States.

    Produce and manufactures of the United Kingdom.

    Imported Merchandise.

    January to September.

    £

    £

    £

    1931

    72,701,974

    12,640,653

    6,284,911

    1932

    58,809,908

    11,079,368

    4,488,819

    1933

    52,241,241

    13,914,110

    5,721,102

    HATS (IMPORTS AND EXPORTS).
    Captain DOWERasked the President of the Board of Trade the nature of the latest information in his possession with regard to the effect on the hat trade of the existing import duty, and the efforts made to promote such British exports, especially to Scandinavian countries?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The existing import duties on hats have been in force since the 27th June, 1933. Since the introduction of these duties the percentage of unemployment in the industry has fallen to 10.7 per cent. as on the 25th September last compared with 12.7 per cent. a month previously, 14.3 per cent. in September, 1932, and 17.3 per cent. in September, 1931. Since the Ottawa Conference various reductions have been made in the duties on hats imported into Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Newfoundland and India from the United Kingdom. As regards the Scandinavian countries, a tariff concession of benefit to the more expensive types of felt hats was obtained under the Danish Agreement. Particulars of the imports and exports of hats are published monthly in the "Accounts relating to Trade and Navigation."

    COTTON INDUSTRY.
    Mr. SUTCLIFFEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any of the recent trade agreements which have been concluded between this country and Other nations have yet resulted in improved exports of British cotton textiles; and, if so, to what extent?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: New Trade Agreements with Denmark, Iceland. Norway and Sweden came into force at various
    12
    dates in June and July. Although it is too early as yet to measure the effect of these agreements on particular trades it is satisfactory to note that our exports of cotton piece goods to each of the countries concerned were substantially greater in the three months July to September than in the corresponding period of last year.
    Mr. SUTCLIFFE: In any future negotiations will my right hon. Friend keep in view the very serious state of the cotton trade?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, Sir, certainly.
    Mr. SUTCLIFFEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any British Colonies have, since July, given increased preference to British cotton textiles and, if so, whether he will give the details?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): No increased preference for British cotton textiles have come into operation in the Colonies since July, with the exception of a preference of 12½ per cent. forming part of a new general system of preference in St. Helena.

    PORTUGUESE PORTS (FLAG DISCRIMINATION).
    Sir ASSHETON POWNALLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a final agreement has yet been come to with Portugal on the question of flag discrimination?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir John Simon): I am happy to be able to inform my hon. Friend that a satisfactory agreement was concluded on the 14th October

    13
    with the Portuguese Government, who have undertaken to abolish all forms of flag discrimination in Portugal and the adjacent islands (Madeira, Porto Santo and the Azores) by the 1st July, 1934, and in the Portuguese possessions overseas by the 1st July, 1936. The text of the agreement is to-day being laid before Parliament.

    CANADA AND AUSTRALIA (IMPORT DUTIES).
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS (for Mr. MITCHESON)asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what progress has been made by the Canadian and Australian tariff boards in reducing the duties on United Kingdom goods?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: I understand that the Canadian Tariff Board have heard and are considering evidence in support of an application for a reduction of the duties on woollen and worsted goods, and that they are making arrangements to hear evidence in respect of several other applications. As regards Australia, I understand that, in accordance with recommendations made by the Commonwealth Tariff Board since the date of the Ottawa Conference, the duties on United Kingdom goods have been reduced in 67 items or sub-items of the Tariff and increased in five items. In addition, reductions ranging up to 12½ per cent. ad valorem are to be made in the protective duties applicable to British goods, in partial relief of the depreciation of Australian currency in terms of sterling, in relation to approximately 850 items and sub-items in the Tariff. The primage duties on United Kingdom goods have also been reduced or abolished in many cases.
    Mr. HANNON: Has there not been, since the Ottawa Conference, a general disposition on the part of the Dominions to meet the conclusions arrived at at the conference, and to help us as far as possible in the development of inter-Imperial trade?
    Mr. THOMAS: The figures clearly demonstrate the value of the Ottawa Conference and the Agreements, not only to ourselves, but to the Dominions and Colonies.

    TARIFF TRUCE.
    Mr. HANNON (for Mr. LYONS)asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
    14
    if he will now make a statement on the position of the tariff truce?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have been asked to reply. Since the adjournment of the Monetary and Economic Conference, notices of withdrawal from the truce have been given by the Netherlands, the Irish Free State, Sweden and Switzerland, while reservations have been made by France and Denmark. His Majesty's Government have carefully considered the whole matter, and they have come to the conclusion in all the circumstances that. the truce is no longer of practical value. Notice has accordingly been given of the withdrawal of this country, to take effect as from 7th December.
    Mr. HANNON (for Mr. LYONS)asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the industries which up to date have applied for an increased duty but in respect of which duty has been refused because of the tariff truce?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): My hon. Friend will recollect that, as I stated in reply to a question by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams) on the 15th May, the position is that the Import Duties Advisory Committee have been continuing to carry out their statutory obligations, including the receipt and examination of applications for new or altered duties, but the Government announced that during the operation of the truce they would refrain from making Orders for increases of Customs duties in respect of any applications which had not' been received by the Committee before the 12th May. No recommendation has, in fact, been received from the Committee for an increased duty arising out of such an application.

    DUKE OF ATHOLL'S APPEAL.
    Mr. ISAAC FOOT (by Private Notice)asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department is he has any information to give in relation to the appeal to the public for money, recently made by the Duke of Atholl; and further, if he is in possession of the figures showing the amount received, the expenses of the scheme, and the moneys distributed amongst charities; and whether the whole fund has yet been distributed; and

    15
    if he proposes to take any action in the matter either as to the Duke of Atholl's scheme or any similar enterprise in future?
    Mr. HANNON: On a point of Order. Is it not a fact that a summons has been served on the Duke of Atholl in this instance, and is not the case sub judice? Is it in order, therefore, to raise this matter before the House?
    Mr. FOOT: On that point of Order. My notice was given before there was any announcement as to a summons, and, in consequence of what has happened, I have altered, since that time, the form of my question, so that only matters of public interest are raised in it.
    Mr. HANNON: On the point of Order. A summons, I understand, has actually been served, and therefore, the case is before the courts. In these circumstances, I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that the matter should not have been brought before the House.
    Mr. SPEAKER: If the question is sub judice, any answer given will undoubtedly take that fact into consideration.

    Unemployed persons on, the registers of Employment Exchanges in Greet Britain.

    Date

    Males

    Females

    Wholly unemployed (including casuals)

    Temporarily stopped.

    Total.

    Wholly unemployed.

    Temporarily stopped.

    Total.

    21st September, 1931

    …

    1,674,392

    448,148

    2,122,540

    482,468

    206,607

    689,075

    23rd October, 1933

    …

    1,683,529

    280,220

    1,963,749

    257,555

    77,449

    335,004

    COAL INDUSTRY.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Minister of Labour what was the number of mineworkers totally or partially unemployed in September, 1931, and at the latest possible date?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: At 21st September, 1931, there were 208,468 insured persons in the coal mining industry classification in Great Britain recorded as wholly unemployed, and 109,291 temporarily stopped. At 23rd October, 1933, the corresponding figures were 223,090 wholly unemployed and 106,193 temporarily stopped.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): I have no information regarding the appeal referred to other than that which has already been published in the Press. The question of the legality of the scheme will, I understand, be coming before the courts in the course of a few days, and, while the case is pending, it would be improper for me to make any statement on the matter.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    STATISTICS.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Minister of Labour what was the number of males and females totally or partially unemployed in September, 1931, and at the latest possible date?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton): The total numbers on the registers were 2,811,615 on 21st September, 1931, and 2,298,753 on 23rd October, 1933. The further details asked for are given in a table which I will circulate, if I may, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the table:
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that these figures are an advertisement for the virtues of the Coal Mines Act?
    Mr. LUNN: Does the right hon. Gentleman also consider it is an advertisement of the success of the National Government?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: If the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn) will look at the figures for the last few months, he will see that there has been a great deal of improvement.

  AGRICULTURE.

    POTATOES (MARKETING).
    Mr. KIRKWOODasked the Minister of Agriculture what action is to be taken in view of the interdict action in the High Court, Edinburgh, in regard to the potato marketing plan under the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1930; if he still intends to proceed with the negotiations to apply the marketing plan to this year's crops; and, if not, will the scheme be proceeded with with a view to its adoption for next year?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot): The effect of the proceedings in the Scottish Courts was that an interim writ of interdict was first granted and then recalled on an undertaking given on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland that he would not lay, or consent to the laying, of the scheme before Parliament without giving the complainers an opportunity of renewing their application to the courts. That undertaking has now been fulfilled. Unless the statutory procedure is further barred by legal process, my right hon. Friend and I hope to lay a draft of the modified scheme before Parliament in the near future, but I am unable to state at present when the scheme, if approved by Parliament and accepted by the, requisite majority of producers, will come into full operation.

    RASPBERRIES (PRICES, SCOTLAND).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture the average wholesale and retail price for raspberries in Scotland for the last three seasons?
    Sir G. COLLINS: The average wholesale price per lb. for raspberries sold in the Glasgow market during the years 1931, 1932 and 1933, was 5¼d., 7½d., and 7½d. No official statistics as to the retail prices of raspberries are collected and as there is great fluctuation in prices I could not give an average figure without extensive inquiry. Information from one large firm of traders indicates an average price of about 7½ per lb. in 1931, 9d. in 1932, and 9½d. in 1933, but these figures differ from those obtained from two other sources both as regards the average price in any one year and as regards the rise or fall of price in the three-year period.
    Captain ARTHUR HOPE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what was the price of raspberries in Kilmarnock last week?

    WHEAT (WORLD POSITION).
    Mr. PETHERICK (for Mr. SMITHERS)asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can give the House in broad outline the wheat position in the world; and what is the estimated quantity for export from the main wheat-growing countries for 1933 as compared with 1931 and 1932?
    Mr. ELLIOT: I have been asked to reply. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving the information for which my hon. Friend has asked.
    Following is the statement:
    On the basis of present estimates the position is as follows:
    The 1933 Wheat Crop in North America has been exceptionally small, amounting to approximately 360,000,000 bushels less than in the previous year. No figures for the crops of the southern hemisphere are yet available, but estimates for the area sown show a contraction in Australia of approximately 670,000 acres and in the Argentine of approximately 1,500,000 acres. The 1933 crop in Europe has been exceptionally abundant, and is estimated (excluding Russia) at 152,000,000 bushels more than in the previous year. The Russian crop is also understood to be large.
    Under the recent International Wheat Agreement, export allocations between the chief exporting countries have been made as follows, based on the assumption of a total world's import demand of 560,000,000 bushels for the year 1933–34:

    Wheat, including flour.

    Million Bushels.

    Canada

    …

    200

    United States

    …

    47

    Australia

    …

    105

    Argentine

    …

    110

    Danubian countries

    …

    50 to 54

    This leaves a balance of 44 to 48 million bushels to be provided by Russia or other unspecified exporting countries.
    Exports from the main wheat-growing countries for the years 1931–32 and 1932–33 were as follows:

    Wheat including Flour—Million bushels

    ——

    1932–33. (August to July.)

    1931–32 (August to July.)

    Canada

    261

    206

    United States of America.

    29

    109

    Argentina

    131

    140

    Australia

    148

    154

    Russia

    16(a)

    66(a)

    Bulgaria

    3

    11

    Hungary

    7

    18

    Rumania

    (b)

    37

    Yugoslavia

    1

    15

    Total of above

    596

    756

    (a)Wheat only. Data up to 31st May. For 1931–32 this is evidently a revised figure, as previously exports for the whole year were estimated at 63 million bushels.
    (b)Less than 500,000 bushels (up to the end or June).

    HOURS OF WORK (YOUNGPERSONS).
    Mr. DENMANasked the Home Secretary whether he has completed his negotiations for limiting the hours of employment of young persons; and whether he can now assure the House that the Government's undertaking to legislate on this matter will soon be fulfilled?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I assume that the hon. Member refers to the proposals for further limitation of the hours of young persons employed in the distributive trades. The negotiations on this subject have now reached an advanced stage, but I am not yet in a position to make any definite statement as to the introduction of legislation.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any idea of when he is likely to reach a conclusion and introduce some legislation?
    Viscountess ASTOR: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that we have had vague assurances like this since 1912; and will he bear in mind that the Juvenile Advisory Committee for Scotland said that it was imperative to have legislation respecting juveniles? Will the Prime Minister bear that in mind?
    Mr. GEORGE BALFOUR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the vast amount
    20
    of unemployment caused by Measures of this kind?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I can assure my hon. Friends that this matter is not being neglected by the Government, and I hope to be able to make a statement at a later date.

    LOTTERIES AND BETTING (ROYALCOMMISSION).
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Home Secretary whether the Government have reached any decision on the Report of the Royal Commission on Lotteries and Betting; and, if so, what action it is proposed to take?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The Report of the Royal Commission on Lotteries and Betting has been engaging the close attention of His Majesty's Government, and although I am not at present in a position to give any undertaking,. I hope that it will be possible to introduce next Session legislation dealing with the subject.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that if the Government acted more quickly on these reports they would get less opposition?
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the British Museum, which was started by means of a lottery, has already spent the small and reduced grant made by Parliament, and will he consider the desirability of holding a lottery in order to get it some funds?

    DISARMAMENT CONFERENCE.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the present position with regard to the Disarmament Conference?
    Mr. D. GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make on the present position of the Disarmament Conference; and whether any results have accrued front the recent conversations that have taken place between the President of the Conference and various representatives of foreign countries on the subject of disarmament?
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any statement to make with regard to the present position of the Disarmament Conference?
    Sir J. SIMON: I shall be making a statement on the present position with regard to the Disarmament Conference later to—day.

    MANCHURIA.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any statement to make with regard to the situation in Manchukuo?
    Sir J. SIMON: Apart from the discussions between the Soviet-Russian and Manchurian authorities regarding the Chinese Eastern Railway, which, I understand, are continuing, I am not aware of any particularly important recent developments in Manchuria which would call for a statement in answer to my hon. Friend's question.

    POOR LAW RELIEF.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Minister of Health the total number of persons receiving out-relief in September, 1931, and at the latest possible date?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Shakespeare): The total number of persons (men, women and children) in receipt of out-relief in England and Wales (excluding persons in receipt of domiciliary medical relief only) on Saturday, 26th September, 1931, was 786,771. The corresponding number on Saturday, 21st October, 1933, was
    1,106,871.
    Mr. LUNN: May I ask the hon. Gentleman if we may with reason add those numbers to the total number of the unemployed, as we now have them?
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Is it not a fact that every person on the register of the public assistance authorities who is in fact an insured unemployed person, is also included on the live register of the Employment Exchanges? [HON. MEMBERS: "No"]
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: That is not the fact.

    HOUSING (SLUM CLEARANCE).
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Minister of Health the number of local authorities that have submitted schemes for slum clearance, and the number that have been approved by his Department?
    Mr. HICKSasked the Minister of Health what progress has been made in slum clearance?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: My right hon. Friend understands that the questions refer to the later stage of schemes included in resolutions and orders under the Housing Act, 1930, and not to the earlier stage of submitting programmes in response to my right hon. Friend's Circular of 6th April last. As to the former, up to 31st October, 236 local authorities in England and Wales submitted to the Minister resolutions declaring 1,265 areas, comprising 32,839 houses, to be clearance areas; 878 clearance and compulsory purchase orders affecting 23,012 houses, were submitted for confirmation, and 619 Orders made by 139 local authorities, affecting 13,133 houses, were confirmed; in addition, 1,013 houses were purchased by local authorities for demolition without a Compulsory Purchase Order.
    Mr. DAVIES: Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell the House whether the Minister is satisfied with the progress made in this direction?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: My right hon. Friend was not satisfied. That is why he reversed policy and issued the Circular.
    Mr. THORNE: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what the Department are doing for the purpose of speeding up the local authorities and getting on with the work of finding men jobs all over the country?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: May I ask where the hon. Gentleman has been during the last six months?
    Mr. MCENTEE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that schemes that were presented over two years ago have been passed only within the last two or three weeks, and is he satisfied with that rate of speeding up?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: That may be true, but the policy has now been changed, and we are speeding up. We inherited a problem, and we are speeding up. My right hon. Friend is to make a

    23
    statement at a later stage to show what a remarkable response is coming from the local authorities, and how the problem is being attacked.

    DISTRESSED AREAS (GRANT).
    Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Minister of Health whether he can now give full information as to the disposal and allotment of the £500,000 grant to the distressed areas?
    Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The distribution of the grant has been made on the basis set out in Command Paper No. 4374, which accompanied the Estimate. As the amounts allotted to individual areas involve a considerable number of figures I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing the approximate amounts for England and Wales. If information is desired in regard to the allocation in Scotland, an inquiry should be addressed to the Secretary of State.
    Following is the statement:
    County or County Borough and Amount of Grant.

    Counties.

    £

    Cumberland

    …

    3,785

    Durham

    …

    94,772

    Norfolk

    …

    6,508

    Anglesey

    …

    1,537

    Carmarthen

    …

    5,679

    Glamorgan

    …

    66,722

    Monmouth

    …

    16,210

    Pembroke

    …

    1,260

    County Boroughs.

    Barnsley

    …

    3,861

    Bootle

    …

    3,887

    Gateshead

    …

    11,831

    Grimsby

    …

    2,352

    Kingston-upon-Hull

    …

    20,783

    Lincoln

    …

    7,722

    Liverpool

    …

    57,302

    Newcastle-upon-Tyne

    …

    17,822

    Norwich

    …

    9,674

    Rotherham

    …

    2,492

    St. Helens

    …

    4,375

    Sheffield

    …

    58,533

    Sunderland

    …

    10,094

    Walsall

    …

    3,550

    West Ham

    …

    19,289

    Merthyr Tydfil

    …

    9,960

    Total

    …

    440,000

    UNITED STATES (BRITISH DEBT).
    Lieut. Colonel Sir VIVIAN HENDERSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is in a position to make any statement as to future payments by this country to the United States of America on account of War Debts; and whether any negotiations or discussions have taken place on this subject since the end of July between representatives of the two countries?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any statement to make on the subject of our War Debt to the United States of America?
    Mr. HAMMERSLEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether the Government proposes to make payment of the instalment of the British debt to the United States due in December;
    (2) whether any negotiations have taken place on the subject of Britain's War Debt to the United States; and, if so, will he give details?
    Captain DOWERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement regarding any negotiations which have taken place, either with the United States of America or with any other allied countries interested, during the Recess with respect to the payment of War Debts?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The discussions in regard to the War Debt have now been concluded. It has, unfortunately, not proved possible to reach agreement for a final settlement. His Majesty's Government recognise, however, the difficulties which exist in the way of reaching such an agreement at the present time, by reason of the unsettled economic and financial situation, and they have accordingly informed the United States Government that they are prepared to make, on 15th December next, a further payment of 7,500,000 dollars in United States currency, in acknowledgment of the Debt, pending a final settlement. His Majesty's Government have stated that they are ready to resume negotiations on the general question whenever, after consultation with the President, it may appear that this can usefully be done.

    25
    President Roosevelt is making a statement in Washington to-day in regard to the discussions. After briefly referring to the origin and result of the conversations, the statement continues as follows:
    "It has, therefore, been concluded to adjourned the discussions until certain facts in the world situation—commercial and monetary—become more clarified. In the meantime I have, as Executive, noted the representations of the British Government. I am also assured by that Government that it continues to acknowledge the Debt without, of course, prejudicing its right again to present the matter of its readjustment, and that, on the 15th December, 1933, it will give tangible expression of this acknowledgment by the payment of 7,500,000 dollars in United States currency. In view of these representations, of the payment and of the impossibility at this time, of passing, finally and justly, upon the request for a readjustment of the Debt, I have no personal hesitation in saying that I shall not regard the British Government as in default."
    The text of the Notes exchanged between His Majesty's Government and the United States Government, and also of President Roosevelt's statement, is given in a White Paper, copies of which will be available in the Vote Office after questions.
    Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the Prime Minister or the Chancellor whether there is any intention to give the House an opportunity of discussing the White Paper and any further statement that the Chancellor may make on the subject?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will wish to have a look at the White Paper first, and if, after that, representations are made through the usual channels, no doubt consideration will be given to them.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I am quite aware that, like everybody else, I can look at the contents of the White Paper, but I want to be certain that the House will have an opportunity—very little time is apparently available—if it so desires, of discussing it. That is all that I asked the right hon. Gentleman.
    Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Am I right in understanding from the statement of my right hon. Friend that the payment to be made on 15th December
    26
    will be made on the same conditions as that which was made on the last due date—in all respects on the same conditions?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir, that is So.

    WORLD ECONOMIC CONFERENCE.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the present position with regard to the World Economic Conference?
    Mr. SMITHERSasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement as to the present position of the World Monetary and Economic Conference; if it is proposed to ask the delegates to reassemble; and, if so, on what date?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Since the Conference adjourned on 27th July, the development of the monetary and financial situation has not been such as to make it possible to resume the work on the questions which the Monetary and Financial Commission had before it, nor to make any substantial progress on the questions of tariffs, quotas, and commercial policy in general which were dealt with by the Economic Commission. There remained a number of questions on which the Conference felt that their work could and should be pursued. These included the international organisation of production in relation to various commodities (such as coal and copper), veterinary questions, and matters of Customs administration. The date of the re-assembly of the Conference and the organisation of the work to be carried out in preparation therefor is a matter for the Bureau of the Conference, which appointed an executive committee for this purpose. The position is being kept under review, but I am not in a position to make any definite statement on the matter at the present time.
    Mr. MANDER: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer say whether the Geological Museum is still retained by the Government for future meetings of the Conference?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir.

    BEER DUTY.
    Sir A. POWNALLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount to the last available date of the assessments for beer duty at the lower rate of duty, and how it compares with the assessment for the similar period last year?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The total amounts of Excise duty assessed on homemade beer brewed during the months May to October (both inclusive) in the years 1932 and 1933, were in 1932 £37,300,000, and in 1933 approximately £28,578,000.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that with, £4,000,000 he could give every child in England half-a-pint of milk, whereas he has given £14,000,000 to the brewers?
    Sir WILLIAM WAYLAND: Considering the very good result which has followed the reduction by ld. a pint, will the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the interests of the Exchequer, consider further reducing the Duty
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I cannot anticipate the Budget statement.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS(for Mr. MITCHESON) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total receipts from the Beer Duty to date since the reduction of the Beer Duty, and, for comparison, the corresponding amount for the similar period of last year?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The total receipts from the Beer Duty during the months May to October (both inclusive) in the years 1932 and 1933 were in 1932 £40,333,000, and in 1933 £31,151,000. The figures for 1933 include Excise duty charged at the old rate on brewings from the 1st to the 25th April.

    NATIONAL FINANCE.
    Lieut. Colonel J. SANDEMAN ALLENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is making progress towards a considerable reduction of taxation in the forthcoming Budget?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The improved condition of the country which is evidenced in many ways enables me to look with confidence for a favourable
    28
    financial outturn on the present financial year. I cannot now make any statement as to the revenue or expenditure of the succeeding year 1934–35.

    CIVIL SERVICE (ROYAL COMMIS-SION'S RECOMMENDATIONS).
    Sir A. POWNALLasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if any further decisions affecting the Civil Service have been arrived at arising out of the report of the Royal Commission?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hore-Belisha): My hon. Friend is already aware of the action taken in regard to temporary staffs and stabilisation of pay. Of the other major recommendations of the commission, those in regard to superannuation and the employment of women respectively are under discussion between official and staff representatives, and considerable progress has been made towards agreement.

    ARMISTICE DAY (WHITE POPPIES).
    Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKE(by Private Notice) asked the Home Secretary what action he proposes to take with regard to the proposal to offer white poppies for sale on Armistice Day in the streets in certain districts; and whether, seeing that Armistice Day is a day of remembrance on which Flanders poppies, made by disabled ex-service men, are sold for the benefit of needy ex-service men and the widows and orphans of the fallen he will recommend all chief constables to forbid the selling of white poppies in the streets on that day?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have no power to intervene in the manner suggested in my hon. Friend's question. So far as I am aware, however, the proposal to sell white poppies in the streets on Armistice Day has been abandoned.

    PALESTINE.
    Mr. D. GRENFELL(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any statement to make on the disturbances in Palestine?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: On 8th October the Palestine Arab Executive

    29
    Committee passed a resolution in favour of a general strike to take place on 13th October, accompanied by a demonstration by means of a procession in Jerusalem, to protest against Jewish immigration and the sale of land to Jews. The officer administering the Government very properly warned the Executive, in the interests of public order, that any such demonstration would be prohibited, giving them at the same time an assurance that any representations that they chose to make in the proper manner would be laid before the High Commissioner immediately on his return from leave in a few days' time. Despite the Government's prohibition, however, which had been publicly announced, a persistent attempt at a demonstration was made in Jerusalem which had to be dispersed by the police, who behaved with great judgment and forbearance.
    The Arab Executive then announced their intention of holding a similar political demonstration at Jaffa on 27th October. On 25th October the High Commissioner received the President and Members of the Arab Executive and replied to representations with regard to Jewish immigration. The High Commissioner also informed them that no political procession or demonstration would be allowed in Jaffa, but that members of the Executive would be permitted to proceed to the District Office and there hand a written statement to the District Commissioner for transmission to the High Commissioner. Despite the High Commissioner's prohibition, the Arab Executive persisted in holding a demonstration at Jaffa. This took place about mid-day on 27th October, and was followed later by disturbances in Haifa and Nablus. These disturbances were of a serious character and the police were subjected to frequent attacks including the use of fire-arms. After endeavours had been made to quell the riots by baton charges, the police were forced, in some cases, to fire before order could be restored.
    Attempts were made to organise demonstrations in other towns but the High Commissioner reports that thanks to the commendable discretion and powers of persuasion shown by Administrative and Police officers on the spot the crowds were persuaded to disperse without endangering public security or clashing with the Police. As a precautionary
    30
    measure an Order-in-Council was brought into force by the High Commissioner on 30th October to enable him to exercise special powers to deal with the emergency. In view of the loss of life which had occurred, the arrangements for the festivities which were to have accompanied the ceremonial opening of Haifa harbour were cancelled by the High Commissioner. In other respects the ceremonial opening took place on 31st October according to plan.
    Members will, no doubt, have followed the Press reports of the communiques which have been issued daily by the High Commissioner, and I do not think I can usefully add any detailed information to the full account which is given in those communiques. I may, however, remark that, apart from three incidents at Jerusalem on the 29th of October, and a demonstration at Ammam on the 31st of October, which dispersed quietly, no incidents of any consequence are reported as having occurred throughout Palestine and Transjordan since the disturbances at Haifa on the morning of the 28th of October, and the general strike which began on the 29th of October ended on the night of the 3rd of November. The admirable conduct shown by the police at the outset of the disturbances has been maintained throughout under most trying conditions, and the House will, I am sure, have noted with satisfaction that active intervention by the military authorities was nowhere found necessary.
    Let me repeat once again the firm assurance of His Majesty's Government that their duty under the Mandate, which is a duty to both Arabs and Jews, will be discharged with scrupulous fairness. I would add, what I know the House will endorse, that no officer could be found better qualified by knowledge, sympathy and experience to discharge that duty on the spot than the present High Commissioner.
    Captain P. MACDONALD: What action is the right hon. Gentleman taking to restrict the illegal immigration of Jews into Palestine?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I should like to have that question on the Paper. There has been such immigration and very practical steps are being taken to deal with it, but I should like to have the question on the Paper.
    Mr. JANNER: Are any steps being taken in order that the thousands of people who come from Transjordan and are not Jews shall not be permitted to come in the manner that they have been in the past?
    Sir P. CUNLIFE-LISTER: Certainly it would be very wrong of me to attempt to answer a question of that kind without sifting the facts very fully.

    MALTA.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any statement to make on the present situation in Malta?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: As the House will be aware from the official announcement issued during the Recess, His Majesty's Government have recently found it necessary to take action with regard to Malta. With their full approval the Governor on the 2nd of November discharged the Ministry, dissolved the Legislature, and again assumed the administration of the Island in virtue of a provision inherent in the Constitution by which, in the event of a local emergency, he is entitled to invoke his reserved powers. The House will remember that when responsible Government was restored in 1932 it was made subject to certain stipulations regarding the languages to be taught in the elementary schools. It was laid down that in these schools the children should be instructed in Maltese and English only, adequate provision being made for the teaching of Italian in the secondary schools. Both on the grounds of educational efficiency and of the practical interests of the children themselves these provisions were held to be amply justified. The policy of His Majesty's Government on this matter was confirmed by an Act which was passed unanimously through both Houses of Parliament; and hon. Members will, I am sure, recollect the importance which the House rightly attached to the language question.
    The Maltese Ministers were well aware of the conditions upon which responsible Government was restored. Unfortunately, by a series of actions of which the cumulative effect is unmistakable, they have made it clear that the main object of
    32
    their policy has been to frustrate the effective operation of these conditions. In addition to this, the general administration of the Island has presented features which His Majesty's Government were bound to view with grave concern. The estimates for the current year contemplated an expenditure. of £151,000 in excess of the revenue estimate of some £900,000, and further supplementary expenditure was proposed which threatened the Island with a virtual depletion of the reserve fund which stood to its credit when the Imperial authorities transferred the administration in 1932. The financial administration in other respects presented unsatisfactory features. Ministers were warned by the Governor of the inevitable consequences which must follow unless their policy were radically altered. They have disregarded these warnings and have persisted in a policy which is at variance with the spirit of the Constitution, which had undermined the finances of the Island, and which is clearly prejudicial to Maltese and British interests. In these circumstances His Majesty's Government were bound to act as they have done.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is a further election in the early or distant future contemplated in Malta? Secondly, now that the right hon. Gentleman insists upon English being taught in all the Maltese schools, will he take steps to prevent Maltese men and women being prosecuted for high treason for reading books written by George Bernard Shaw?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I do not pretend to understand the point of the second question. The provisions about the language are not only provisions upon which I insisted but provisions upon which the whole House in every quarter most firmly insisted. It is perfectly plain, in the circumstances of Malta today, that this country must administer the government for the time being.
    Brigadier General Sir HENRY CROFT: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will take steps to see that all these lessons in democratic experiments are conveyed to the Select Committee on Indian Reform?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether the British Ambassador in Rome has been fully informed of the policy of His Majesty's

    33
    Government in regard to the Italian language in Malta, and is in a position, if need be, to make representations to, or to answer objections from, the Italian Government?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: His Majesty's Ambassador in Rome has been kept in most complete and full touch and has had the fullest information throughout.

    GERMANY (BRITISH JOURNALIST'S ARREST).
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has had any communication with the German Embassy concerning the imprisonment of Mr. Panter, and if he has any statement to make?
    Sir J. SIMON: On learning of the arrest of Mr. Panter and on the failure of His Majesty's Consul-General in Munich to obtain his release, I made vigorous representations to the German Government, both through the German Embassy here and through His Majesty's Embassy in Berlin, and pressed to know what was the charge against him. As the hon. Member is aware, Mr. Panter has now been released and has returned to this country. After Mr. Panter's release and as he was required by the German authorities to leave Germany though no charge could be formulated against him, I have been in further communication with the German Foreign Minister. Herr von Neurath informed His Majesty's Ambassador in Berlin on 4th November that no order of expulsion has been made against Mr. Panter and that he is therefore free to return to Germany. No charge or other penalty lies against him.
    Mr. McENTEE: May I ask the right lion. Gentleman whether he proposes to publish all the correspondence in this case?
    Sir J. SIMON: No, Sir. I think that when a matter has been dealt with as this matter has been, and when the German Foreign Minister has made the statement that he has made, it would be very undesirable.
    Captain P. MACDONALD: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any assur-
    34
    ance that this gentleman will be allowed to continue his calling in Germany if he returns there?
    Sir J. SIMON: I have stated, in answer to the original question, the relevant information. No doubt inquiries will be made on other points by Mr. Panter himself.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the German Government are proposing to give compensation to Mr. Panter?
    Sir J. SIMON: No, Sir.
    Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSON: Has my right hon. Friend any reason to think that in future British Consuls will have immediate access to British citizens when they are arrested?
    Mr. MANDER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any assurance has been received as to the future treatment of British journalists in Germany?
    Sir J. SIMON: No, Sir. This is the case of a particular gentleman, and, I think, in all the circumstances, it has been handled thoroughly and fairly, because we addressed a question to the German Foreign Minister, and the German Foreign Minister has removed the misapprehension by the statement that no order of expulsion has been made. I think that in those circumstances this particular matter must rest where it is.
    Mr. MABANE: Can the House be told why Mr. Panter was imprisoned?
    Commander OLIVER LOCKER-LAMPSON: Can he go back now and tell the truth?
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: As I understand, my right hon. Friend received an assurance from the German Foreign Minister which stated that no order of expulsion had been issued. Was Mr. Panter told that he must leave?
    Sir J. SIMON: I do not think that my right hon. Friend heard my original statement perhaps completely. I said, and I repeat, that after Mr. Panter's release, he was required by the German authorities to leave Germany though no charge was formulated against him. I made inquiries, and the answer I received I have just told to the House. It says:

    35
    "No order of expulsion has been made against Mr. Panter. Herr von Neurath informed His Majesty's Ambassador in Berlin on 4th November, that no order of expulsion has been made against Mr. Panter and that he is therefore free to return to Germany."
    That is the answer.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. LANSBURY: Is the Prime Minister able to tell us to-day when the Unemployment Insurance Bill will be introduced, and also the business for the week?
The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): The Unemployment Insurance Bill will be presented to-morrow and copies circulated to Members with the Votes on Thursday morning.
As regards the business for the week, the House is already aware that it is the intention of the Government to move the Adjournment of the House to-day in order to debate foreign affairs. The Foreign Secretary will open the Debate. In consequence, the business previously announced for consideration to-day will not be taken, except the Second Reading of the Expiring Laws Continuance (No. 2) Bill. This stage of the Bill is usually treated as formal. The Committee stage is the effective stage, when Amendments can be discussed.
The business for the remainder of the week will be as follows:’
To-morrow; the remaining stages of the Expiring Laws Continuance (No. 2) Bill; the Second Reading of the Firearms and Imitation Firearms (Criminal Use) Bill [Lords]; Second Reading of the Local Government Bill [Lords]; and the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Thursday; Second Reading of the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Bill [Lords]; and the remaining stages of the Firearms and Imitation Firearms (Criminal Use) Bill.
The business for Friday will be announced later, and on any day, if there is time, further Orders may be taken.
Mr. BUCHANAN: Just before we Adjourned the Lord President of the Council, in response to a request by the
36
Leader of the Opposition and myself, said that the House would be given time to discuss the question of Health Insurance and Pension rights of very many people. In view of the promise given by the Lord President of the Council, will the Prime Minister now state if any arrangements have been made for that Debate to take place, and, if so, can he give us any idea of the day on which it will be taken and what form it will take?
The PRIME MINISTER: The promise of my right hon. Friend has not been overlooked. As a matter of fact, at this moment conversations are proceeding through the usual channels as to how the Debate shall be arranged.
Sir W. DAVISON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether time will be given for practically an agreed Measure to come up on Report stage, namely, the Protection of Birds Bill?
The PRIME MINISTER: That Bill is on the Paper to-day and perhaps my hon. Friend will see me later on.
Captain HAROLD BALFOUR: May I ask the Prime Minister if, in view of the restricted time available to-day for Back Bench Members to express themselves on the question of Disarmament, there will be a further occasion for another Debate in the near future?
The PRIME MINISTER: At the present moment I can make no definite promise, but my mind is open.

NEW MEMBERS SWORN.
The Right Hon. Arthur Henderson, for County of Derby (Clay Cross Division).
John Charles Wilmot, esquire, for Borough of Fulham (East Division).
Kenneth Martin Lindsay, esquire, for County of Ayr and Bute (Kilmarnock Division).

ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 169.]

DISARMAMENT.
3.53 p.m.
The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir John Simon): I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
The arrangement which has been made that on our reassembling to-day there should be this opportunity for discussing the international situation and the present position in regard to Disarmament will, I feel sure, be generally approved. That situation is undoubtedly serious. But deplorably exaggerated and excited language has been used about it by some people and in some places outside this House, and it is very necessary that the House of Commons, in free debate, should examine it seriously and with clear eyes, but calmly and fairly. The language of panic is not only unjustified in itself, but it is utterly foreign to the fundamental steadiness and good sense of the British people.
The Government therefore welcome the opportunity of laying before the House and the country the true facts of the situation and of initiating a discussion, as I propose to do, on Britain's attitude in regard to it. There are some illusions that we want to dissipate. There is help in our heavy task that we shall be glad to receive from any quarter. And, if there be any critics, well, we are anxious to meet them here, face to face. When the position and action of the Government are plainly stated and fairly judged, there will be no doubt in the mind of any reasonable man or woman that our own devotion and efforts in the cause of Disarmament have been constant and sincere.
It is just over three weeks ago that Germany, for the second time, withdrew from the Disarmament Conference, and this time she has given notice of her intention—an intention which cannot be carried out for at least two years—to leave the League of Nations. I would call the attention of the House to this significant association of facts. That announcement was immediately accompanied by a long and carefully drafted "Appeal to the German people"; by an elaborate proclamation by Chancellor Hitler; and by a decision which showed that all arrangements had already been made to dissolve the Ger-
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man Reichstag and to hold new elections, under conditions which Government candidates in this country might well envy, on 12th November.
Now these things necessarily involve previous consultation and long and mature preparation. It is obvious, therefore, that the idea, if it ever has been entertained in any quarter, that the proceedings at Geneva of the Bureau on the 14th October were the cause of the German announcement on that very morning, is quite untenable. Indeed, I read in the papers to-day a very important statement, which was made yesterday in Berlin by the German Foreign Minister, which in itself implied that the step that had been taken is one that had been taken after very long reflection.
And, in fact, there was nothing in the proceedings of the Bureau on 14th October which, could justify the adoption of shock tactics of that nature. Anyone at all familiar with the working of the Disarmament Conference under the Presidency of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Clay Cross (Mr. A. Henderson) knows that that is so, for those proceedings, the record of which, as the House knows, has been printed in the White Paper, were similar in their nature to proceedings which have taken place more than once in the course of the work over
which the right hon. Gentleman presides. That reason, therefore, may be dismissed. But the important thing is not to spend our time discussing the alleged reasons. The important thing is for us to examine with candour what is Germany's real reason, what is really at the back of Germany's mind which causes Germany to do this, and for that purpose it is necessary to survey the course of preceding events.
I will be as brief as I can be, but I think I shall be serving the House if I state, in due order of date, a number of important steps which took place at Geneva. The Disarmament Conference, the calling of which is contemplated in the Covenant itself, first assembled as long ago as February, 1932. There were high hopes that it would reach definite results without great delay, for the Preparatory Commission, in the work of which every

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previous Government of this country, of whatever complexion, since 1925 had taken an active part, had spent many years in going over the ground, and with much labour had produced a schedule of many clauses—a schedule, I am bound to say, which had this shortcoming, that wherever figures were needed, the schedule consisted of nothing but blanks. The moment that we pass away from general declarations to real business, the essence of any Disarmament Convention that will operate must be figures, sizes and dates. An example, in passing, is furnished by the Naval Treaties of Washington and London.
This preparatory scheme—I do not wish to belittle the work, but we must face the facts—had another very great defect. If hon. Members will look at it and examine Article 53, they will find that this preparatory scheme kept alive the provisions of the Peace Treaties as regards limitation of armaments, the provisions in Part V of the Treaty of Versailles with regard to Germany, for example, and for that reason Germany gave notice before ever the Disarmament Conference met that she would not accept the draft scheme. For various reasons this first essay was soon discarded by general consent. The moral to be drawn from it is not, indeed, that the men of all parties through all that work and long labour were reckless and foolish, but they found it difficult to formulate the definite terms of an agreement dealing with this vital subject to which nations big and small all over the world could agree.
As the discussions proceeded at Geneva, various alternative documents and declarations of a general character made their appearance. There was the British programme of work. There was the Hoover plan. There were two documents from the French which put the necessity for security in the forefront, and there were others. Meanwhile, the Disarmament Conference adopted, with practical unanimity, a number of general propositions. I mention two—the resolution that international disarmament by agreement must proceed by stages. Everyone voted for that, Germany voted for it. Then, again, there was the resolution which approved the method of what was called qualitative limitation,
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that is to say, that you should proscribe certain types of weapons which are specifically to be regarded as offensive, the abolition of which, therefore, may be supposed to assist the defence against the attack.
Those were general resolutions, but general resolutions, though they stimulate for a time, do not in themselves lead to concrete agreement on essential details. It is the details that count, and the Disarmament Conference was in danger of losing its way. It was beginning, I think, to splash a little aimlessly about when it was given a new and a definite direction last March by the production of a British Draft Convention. I am not here in the least to blow the trumpet of the British Draft Convention, and to claim all the credit for it, but I do say that not only was that draft the result of long and detailed work in the Foreign Office and the Cabinet, but it was a draft which has been of immense service to every practical worker for Disarmament at Geneva ever since. It was presented to the Conference by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 16th March. It was subsequently expounded by me both at Geneva and in the House of Commons, and, of course, it was made available in the form of a White Paper.
May I remind the House of two features of that British draft which constituted much of its value? The contents of the British plan were selected with a view to suggesting what appeared to be, as nearly as possible, the probable greatest measure of attainable general consent. We put it forward knowing that it contained some provisions which, as yet, were not acceptable, let us say, to A or to B. but in the hope that by co-operation and mutual concession it might he welded into an agreed whole. And the special merits of that plan, as we thought, were first, that it presented the picture of a complete settlement, because if you go on discussing a particular corner of the Draft Treaty you will get people refusing to consider it until they know how they are to be treated in another corner. This was a picture of a complete settlement, though in some places gaps naturally had to be filled in. The second feature of it was that it had the boldness and originality to suggest and to write down numerical limits on such matters as

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military effectives and aeroplanes where the principal countries of Europe were concerned. Of course, we never claimed that it was verbally inspired. The Prime Minister was careful to say that our plan was subject to amendment, and might need alteration, and in these circumstances it was adopted by the General Commission of the Conference, first as "a basis for subsequent discussions" and later, on June 8th" as the basis of the future Convention."
Let me make one other observation about the plan. It was universally regarded at Geneva as a real and valuable contribution towards world Disarmament. It was accepted in principle by both France and Germany, and it was the first time, to the best of my belief, that has ever happened in these Disarmament discussions. It was widely welcomed in debate here in the House of Commons, and I recall that it was the subject of congratulations addressed to the Government by the executive committee of the League of Nations Union. I do not wish to be unduly complacent, but I admit that until quite recently I had supposed that this British draft had been generally regarded as, at any rate, a good and useful piece of work. Certainly the President of the Conference has relied upon it as a basis ever since.
I am sorry to make a reference to a Member of the House who is not here, but I read that, in a particularly violent speech at Bristol on 28th October, the hon. and learned Member for Bristol East (Sir S. Cripps), referring to the British draft, used these words:
"We have offered a Disarmament Convention which might well make the gods laugh if they desired the destruction of the human race."
Well, Sir, the hon. and learned Member desires the destruction of so many things, that I can form no sort of estimate of where he wants to stop; but we are really entitled to know, I think, in this Debate where the official Opposition stands in this matter. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition will, perhaps, let us know. in the course of his speech, whether on this point he has capitulated to his learned and dictatorial colleague.
Although the British draft was, after long debate, adopted without dissent on what at Geneva was called its First Reading—and it takes a
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great deal longer at Genes a than First Readings do in this House—though that was so, that discussion produced a crop of reservations and qualifications, most of them in general terms, from a large number of other Powers, which was very disappointing. No progress at all was made in the essential matter of agreeing numbers, and by the end of June it was so clear that it would be impossible to enter upon the Second Reading of the draft in the General Commission, that it was decided to adjourn the Conference until October, in order to give an opportunity for conversations between various interested Governments. I ask the House therefore to note that the proposal for conversations between certain Powers was not a malign conspiracy privately entered into by three or four great Powers. It was the decision, the request, of the Conference itself. The President was at the same time requested to use his best endeavours to harmonise the views of various Powers, and for this purpose he visited Paris and Rome and Berlin as well as holding conferences in London with my-self and other representatives of the British Government.
Mr. McGOVERN: Who is the President?
Sir J. SIMON: He is one of the latest additions to the party opposite, the right hon. Member for Clay Cross who, I have no doubt, the hon. Member now recognises as his leader. The President made a report to the Bureau on 9th October, and it showed that while he had certainly worked hard and accomplished useful work, a very formidable list of matters, including some most difficult and important questions, were. still without any agreed solution at all.
I come to the question of how this affects Germany, because I most wholeheartedly agree with the view that what we have to do is to see inside the mind of those in Germany—whatever we may think of what they have done—and try to understand why it is that they have exhibited this vehement resentment. Well, all this consumption of time without achieved result was not only deeply distressing to all who were working sincerely for agreed Disarmament, but it must have made Germany increasingly impatient. We all of us, I hope, have the

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good sense and generosity to see that that is not to be wondered at. While it is untrue to say that Germany's disarmament under the Peace Treaties was conditional upon the prompt achievement of general disarmament by others at a given date, it is clear, it is clear on the face of the Treaties, it is clear in the Clemenceau letter, that German disarmament provided for in the Peace Treaties was contemplated as a first step towards general disarmament. The signatories to the Covenant in terms recognised that—
"The maintenance of peace requires the reduction of national armaments to the lowest point consistent with national safety and the enforcement by common action of international obligations."
I allow myself at this point to include an observation which refers to our own country. Britain has set the example, has led the way. No reasonable or instructed person can possibly suggest that we have not reduced our own armaments to the lowest point to which we could go by unilateral action. It will not be thought a waste of time if I give the House three or four figures. Take the Navy—I am not going to give comparisons with the end of the War, when we had piled up enormous forces; I am going to the year in which the War began. Since 1914 the capital ships of the British Commonwealth have been reduced from 69 to 15; its cruisers from 108 to 54, its destroyers from 216 to 152, and its submarines from 74 to 59. In 1914 we had a class of vessel called a torpedo boat, of which there were 106 in commission in 1914. They have disappeared entirely. At the same time there has been a reduction in personnel, as compared with 1914, from 152,000 to 90,000.
Take the Army. Since 1914—we all remember the size of our own Army in 1914—the regular Army has been reduced from 258,996 to 205,534. This has been effected by disbanding nine regiments of cavalry, 61 batteries and companies of artillery, 21 companies of Royal Engineers, and 21 battalions of infantry and three batteries of Colonial troops. At the same time the Special Reserve has been reduced from 80,120 in 1914 to 24,600; and there has been a reduction in the Territorial Army during this period of 141,702. In 1914 it was some 312,000; to-day it is 170,000. In addition, during
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the same period 18 regiments of cavalry, 31 battalions of infantry and seven battalions of pioneers have been disbanded by the Indian Army. That has resulted in an approximate reduction of 17,000 men.
Take the Air Force, which was in its infancy in 1914. No valid comparison in this or in any other country can be made with that date, but, although Great Britain was one of the two leading air Powers in the world at the end of the War, and although she relies more than any other Power on the Air Arm in connection with some of her mandatory duties, her first line aircraft have been reduced to little more than 20 per cent. of her post-war strength, with the result that the United Kingdom now stands in the number of her military and naval aeroplanes only fifth in the list of States. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"] I beg hon. Members not to express or to entertain that view. I think it is to the credit of this country that we have done our utmost. It should be further realised that of the aircraft authorised for home defence by His Majesty's Government in 1923, 20 per cent. have not, in fact, been constructed.
I am concerned to make this point, which I feel every British subject should be prepared to prove by chapter and verse and, therefore, I ask leave to make it plain by various quotations from Members from different sections of the House. Let me take first a very much respected Member of the official Opposition, Mr. Tom Shaw. Speaking in the House on the 24th of March, 1931, the right hon. Gentleman said:
"Whatever the Government has been since the War ended, whatever colour it has heel, it can claim to have played a part in the comity of nations which has been a peaceful part…. There has been no question as to the policy of the Government. It has been stated perfectly clearly that unilateral disarmament has gone far enough, that it is not helping, and has not helped, towards international disarmament, and that only disarmament by agreement will be successful in the future."OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th March, 1931, col. 292; Vol. 250.]
Let me quote from a speech made by Mr. Alexander, who also held Cabinet office in the last Labour Government. He said:
"We have pleaded for disarmament. You can go too quickly in this matter unless you get other countries in Europe

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to go just as quickly as you. You find a steady decline in our naval expenditure and a steady rise in almost every other country."
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) is not in his place to-day, and all the more so because I hear that he is confined to his house with a painful muscular attack. But the right hon. Gentleman when he was a member of the British Delegation at Geneva made, as we should expect him to make, a close and analytical statement and pointed this out:
"On the basis of the figures published in the League Armaments Year Book it will be found that the expenditure of the United Kingdom on armaments has been reduced between the year 1925 and the year 1930 by 15 per cent. Since that date further reductions have been made which give a total reduction of 20 per cent. in seven years. If a simple cut were made in expenditure on the basis of the present year, that would not represent an equal reduction as between countries which in recent years have reduced their budgets and countries which have not done so…. It is essential that the Conference should not ignore reductions already made."
I have not exhausted all the streams which together make up the full flood of House of Commons opinion. I have here a quotation from a most distinguished man who is not a member of the official Opposition or in immediate association with the right hon. Member for Darwen. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) made a speech in September which I think most of us read and noted with great pleasure. In his speech at Bar-mouth he said:
"Germany disarmed; Britain followed, and even anticipated that process of disarmament, but she stood alone in carrying out her obligations."
What a pity it is that the right hon. Gentleman, when he became a movie star and took to the films with, as I understand, an international circulation, forgot altogether to mention this exception in favour of his own country. I have his words here, and every word which comes from him on a subject like this has rightly tremendous influence. He declared, and hundreds and thousands of our fellow subjects listened to the words:
"The victors undertook that if Germany disarmed they would follow suit. So far from disarming they have actually increased their armaments."
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Not a word to inform those vast and attentive audiences what the right hon. Gentleman so properly said in his speech in Wales, that there is an exception, an honourable exception, to be made, because "Great Britain disarmed, and even anticipated that process of disarmament, although she stood alone in carrying out her obligations."
And the worst of it is that the right hon. Gentleman has imitators, I will not say allies, who put it more crudely. I am glad to see the hon. and learned Member for Bristol, East (Sir Stafford Cripps) is now in his place. In the speech to his constituents from which I have already quoted, he made the monstrous assertion in connection with Disarmament:
"We have done nothing."
When he said that he was not speaking generally and collectively of the victors. He was speaking of ourselves. It was addressed to ourselves. The phrase "we have done nothing" appears immediately before that other gem, in which he said that "the British document would cause the gods to laugh." The hon. and learned Member is too young to recall how the town was taken by storm when Gilbert and Sullivan first produced "The Mikado", but possibly he may have heard the lines of the Lord High Executioner who had" a little list" (I will vary one word) in which he refers to
"The gentleman who praises, with enthusiastic tone, All centuries but this, and every country but his own."
I think that his fellow-countrymen will long remember that statement of the hon. and learned Gentleman about the efforts which this country has made since the War for Disarmament, when he declared that "we have done nothing", as a classic example of the morbid delight which same Englishmen take, in face of the plainest facts, in fouling their own nest.
When the appeal is made, and rightly made, for fair play for Germany, we are entitled to demand fair play for Britain too. There is no ground whatever for reproaching this country with having failed to do its utmost to promote world disarmament. I would add that in other matters also we have led the way. This country has led the way in restoring Germany to her position as an equal partner, and in re-

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moving the discriminations which pressed upon her. Let the House remember that it was we, this country, which took the chief part in making Germany a member of the League of Nations and a permanent member of the Council—positions which she is now spurning. It was we who pressed for and secured the withdrawal of the army of occupation from the Rhineland. The history of reparations, from the Dawes Plan to Lausanne, furnishes another illustration.
The Prime Minister came to Geneva to conduct and carry through terribly difficult negotiations which ended in the Five-Power Agreement of last December, and it was that agreement, signed by France, the United States, Italy, Germany and ourselves, which declared that the principle of equality for Germany was accepted in a system which would provide security for all nations. No doubt it is difficult for a people, a great people with a proud tradition, to be patient when they sincerely feel that the remedy for their grievance is overdue. But it is 'a gross injustice to this country to forget all that Britain has done during these years to promote good relations in Europe after the War by obliterating distinctions between victor and vanquished; and it is an even greater outrage for any man or any party in this country to seek to exploit the peaceful sentiments and deep anxieties of British homes by falsely pretending that there is any difference between us all as to the urgency of Disarmament.
Undoubtedly recent events have created a special difficulty. It is no good simply going back and saying that if people had done so and so this might not have happened. We must look at the thing as it is. Germany has not only withdrawn, but some of the declarations made in recent months with authority in Germany have undoubtedly made the task of international disarmament more difficult. A week before Germany withdrew, the President, now the right hon. Member for Clay Cross, declared in Geneva, in a speech to the Bureau, that some of the more important questions still to be settled in the Disarmament Conference were questions
"the approach to which is manifestly influenced by the present unsettled state of Europe and the ensuing distress and alarm."
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Everyone knows that that is true. Lord Cecil, as soon as he heard on that Saturday of Germany's withdrawal—he was at Geneva—made a speech in which he pointed to her "flaming propaganda and reckless policy as the chief cause of anxiety in Europe, and traced the connection between this anxiety and the unwillingness of some highly armed States promptly to disarm; and he added that
"it would be folly for us to ignore that recent events in Europe have unquestionably increased this fear."
If anyone wants to see a very sober and measured statement to the same effect he will find it in the last public declaration which was made in London by the late Lord Grey.
All this is indubitably true. But how is this situation to be alleviated? I ask for the general assent of everyone when I say that there can be no doubt at all that the most material contribution to the restoration of confidence in Europe would be an international agreement on Disarmament, to which, of course, Germany must be a party. Since I have had a great deal of work to do on this subject, let me point out to my colleagues in this House a consideration, very elementary in itself, the true force of which is not always realised by disarmament enthusiasts who call for this country to give a lead. We have given a lead. The point however is that what we are seeking to bring about is an agreement between nations—an agreement, and you do not necessarily produce an agreement by striking an attitude, by proclaiming that you are willing to disarm. Still less do you produce an agreement by pointing to the fact that we ourselves have disarmed and that therefore we should like other people to do the same. From some points of view the actual negotiation of an agreement acceptable to other Powers would be rendered simpler if we were able to say "If you will do this or do that, this is what we will do."
To a very large extent the difficulties with which we are all struggling at Geneva, and which every serious minded man desires to understand, are not reduced but are increased by the circumstances under which this agreement is being sought. It was with the object of trying to get that agreement that the exchanges of views took place between some of the principal governments con-

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cerned during the summer, and from 23rd September onwards there followed a period of intensive discussion, largely at Geneva, between, for example, the French and Germans and ourselves and the Italians and Americans, and sometimes others came in. What was the object of those discussions? The whole of the discussions were to try to arrive at a method for carrying into practical effect the principle which had been acknowledged on all hands, namely, the principle of equality for Germany in a system which would provide security for all nations.
In this negotiation we had something in our favour. The achievement was undoubtedly assisted by two factors. There was an agreement which was universally accepted, that disarmament must be reached by stages. Secondly, there was the suggestion of the establishment of a system of international supervision of armaments by a permanent disarmament commission.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: General supervision.
Sir J. SIMON: I was just going to make that point. To that proposal Germany said she would raise no objection, provided that the system was generally applied. I shall point out in a moment the attitude that we took up. Working on these two factors the conception began to develop along these lines—that certain provisions or 'operations in the British Draft might first be put into force, e.g., the transformation of Continental armies, which affects France and Italy and Poland as well as Germany; a reduction in effectives; together with the setting up of an adequate system of international supervision. The idea began to emerge that that could be done as a first step, and should be followed by substantial disarmament by the heavily armed Powers, involving the complete abandonment of types of specially offensive weapons by everyone, and accompanied by complete qualitative equality between Germany and the other States as to the types of weapons which were internationally permitted. In other words, there would be an end once for all to the system which said, "That particular instrument is permitted to me, but it is not permitted to you."
I confess that it appeared to me and to my colleagues of the British Government that this scheme was entirely con-
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sistent with the principles of the British Draft, that the security which the actual establishment of international supervision would provide would do much to restore confidence between nations—and you can do nothing unless confidence is restored. Actual disarmament would he reached by international agreement and the equality of Germany would be vindicated.
I want to take up a point just mentioned by my right hon. Friend opposite. In these discussions, sometimes between two or three and sometimes more, the United Kingdom Government, represented by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and myself, insisted that the Disarmament Convention must contain, from the moment of its signature, the detailed and specific amount of disarmament referred to above. We said to the French: "We will have nothing to do with a convention which as its first stage provides for such and such and then says, We will wait to see what disarmament takes place in the second stage.' "We said," Put it down at the beginning." It was to be defined and definite. Germany, we said, was entitled to know beforehand not only what the ultimate disarmament would be, but she was entitled to something else; she was entitled to know whether the decision as to whether the provisions of the first part of the Convention were duly observed was to be arrived at by an impartial international body, or whether each nation was to be judge for itself. We insisted that not only should supervision be generally applied, but that it must be the verdict of this impartial international inquiring body which would decide, aye or no, whether the Convention was being observed.
That was the basis of the tentative scheme, of the tender plant which we were doing what we could to cultivate. While there remained some important matters outstanding, it did appear to promise prospects of adjustment which were encouraging, and this sense of encouragement was by no means confined to the Government of this country. know very well that it was shared by the representatives of other nations. For example, the approach to a common viewpoint between France and Italy was undoubted, and that is an improvement in the relations between these two great countries which everybody must be glad to see. Co-operation with the United

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States has always a special character. It had never been more intimate, it had never been more valued and it had never been more cordial. I do not for a moment suggest that Germany's representatives at Geneva were agreeing on all points, but they were there; they were discussing this and that, they were raising questions as to this or that and, as the White Paper shows, when the right hon Gentleman the Member for Clay Cross asked for some account of the latest discussions he was provided with the information in language which certainly did not contain a single provocative word, and the information which he was given was promptly confirmed by the United States, by France, and by Italy.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for interrupting, but this is really very important. The Foreign Secretary has given an extraordinarily lucid account of the proposals of the Prime Minister in March, but I do not think he has been quite clear as to what the variation was which led to the departure of Germany from Geneva. For instance, I would like to ask him one or two questions. First, he has not explained the period of probation. Then I would like to ask him whether, during that period of probation, supervision is to be general or merely unilaterial. For instance, is the League of Nations to have supervision over the arms of all nations, so as to know exactly what the position is? Another question I would like to ask is whether any of the other Powers are to comply with the provisions of the Prime Minister's draft and begin immediately the first stage of Disarmament; whether they are to wait until the period of probation is over, and whether meanwhile there is to be no reduction anywhere?
Sir J. SIMON: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, and I think his intervention is most useful. I was rushing a little, because I feel that I am occupying a lot of time.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is very vital.
Sir J. SIMON: I am quite prepared and am very glad to deal with each of the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman. There was a great deal of misunderstanding when we began to talk about eight years. I mean in this country. I was unaware of it because
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I was in Geneva, but the actual proposals I will now state more specifically to the House. Before I do so, however, let me make it plain that this was reporting to the Bureau the direction in which suggestions were being made. No one was tabling a plan, but in view of the fact that in the last three months many of us had been asked to interchange views, it was natural for the President to ask, and I think quite proper for us to reply to the question: "Will you tell us what is the general nature of the changes which are suggesting themselves in these discussions to the various Governments?"
With that preamble, let me deal with the specific points raised by my right hon. Friend. First, "the period of probation" is a phrase, and not only a phrase but a conception, which we of the British Delegation had rejected publicly and privately throughout. Our point was "if you are going to get agreement, let us say with the French, then you must aim at a programme which might possibly meet with their acceptance. "If you proceeded to say that these things were all to happen at once, the result might be that you could not get any disarmament at all. Therefore, the idea was a programme which was modified in point of time, under which the first three years or it might be four years, would be occupied in the transformation of the Continental armies, not only Germany's but those of France, and Italy and others, and in the setting up of a system of international inspection.
I come to the second question. International inspection from beginning to end was to be applied to everybody, and there was a very good and practical reason why it should be so applied. One of the things that we thought might be included in this first period, was the provision that no Power, however heavily armed, should provide itself henceforward with any form of weapons which under the scheme of the Treaty were to be scrapped and abandoned. For that purpose, inspection of each country was obviously necessary. I assure my right bon. Friend that there never was a moment when there was reason for misunderstanding about that point. I am sure I shall be confirmed by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary when I say that I explained that point plainly and with the greatest clearness. What can be said, and quite

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fairly said, about this suggested modification is that it did involve certain portions of the original plan of disarmament being postponed. That is certainly true. It involved that the French, for example, would abandon their big weapons, not at once but according to some programme or schedule which it was not contemplated would begin to operate immediately and might not operate for three years or four years.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That was the period of probation.
Sir J. SIMON: The right hon. Gentleman will not mind if I do not use that phrase. I have always protested that it is not quite accurate. I cannot put the thing more plainly than it has been put in a great newspaper, not always very friendly to the Government but which seemed to me, two days afterwards, to state the position exactly. I will read to the House a portion of the leading article in the "Manchester Guardian" on 16th October. This is what that paper said referring to Germany's sudden withdrawal:
"If the, decision comes as something of a shock to other countries that is because Germany was on the point of gaining so much of what had hitherto been denied her. The Treaty of Versailles did not give any undertaking that disarmament by the other Powers would follow that of Germany either immediately, or within any given time. It did exact German disarmament in order to render possible the initiation of a general limitation of all armaments. And now, after too long delays, this was, for the first time, promised to Germany. It was, as Sir John Simon said on Saturday, an essential part of the proposed Convention that it should lay down an actual concrete programme for the abolition of the major arms which would come into force at the end of the first or preliminary period of three or four years. For the first time France, Poland and Germany's other armed neighbours would have bound themselves in the fetters of legal dates and figures, bringing them towards equality with Germany. The price for Germany was submission to a system of inspection"—
As I have said that inspection was to be general—
"and abstention for another three or four years from the major arms. The resentment of the German people that nothing was done for ten years to remove their inferiority of status has long been recognised in this country to be just. But in the Convention they were asked to accept, the advantages to them enormously outweighed the disadvantages. Herr Hitler talks of persecution' at the moment when
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the spirit of persecution of Germany has gone out of European politics. This is the moment when the Nazi Government has chosen to destroy the whole agreement at Geneva to secede from the League of Nations, and to complete the moral isolation which the triumph of the Nazi system has gradually brought on Germany."
I think I have stated plainly what then was the position. Lord Cecil in the speech which I have just referred to declared that Germany had left Geneva "for reasons that no one outside Germany would accept," and that "she had done her best to prevent international disarmament. "The President composed a telegram which the whole of the Conference approved, regretting that this grave decision of the German Government should have been taken "for reasons which he was unable to accept as valid. "Much else may be said in criticism of Germany in this matter, but I am not going to say it, because the Government's chief concern and the chief concern of all of us is to pursue the work for disarmament which that action of Germany has so rudely disturbed.
I do not wish to say anything that would make its resumption more difficult, but we must face the central fact as it is. The central political issue is how to reconcile Germany's demand for equality with France's desire about security. Regarded as a direct issue that is a question between those two Powers and their respective peoples. It is a terrible problem charged with the most potent and persistent of all the historic influences which divide nations. That is memory—the memory of invasion on the one hand and the fear which it leaves behind, the memory of defeat on the other hand and the resentment and sense of humiliation which it engenders. Can one say that either sentiment is unnatural, and that in like circumstances we should not feel it ourselves? I do not think so, and for that reason the whole of British policy has been directed, not to denying or belittling either sentiment, but in the effort to promote reconciliation between them and to meet the supreme need of the world for peace, by turning the minds of both from the past and inviting their co-operation in the future.
"I believe that we have a very special role to play, because it was Britain who

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brought the parties together and secured the signatures of both for a declaration of equality in a regime of security. We have used every effort, we are using every effort, and we shall go on using every effort, whether Germany is at Geneva or not, to that end. We have the most urgent national reasons for doing so, if only because the present inequality in armaments affects not only Germany but ourselves, and the very last thing we want to see is a process of rearmament either here or elsewhere. We stand, as we believe the vast mass of our fellow-countrymen stand, for international co-operation with a view to firmly establishing peace, and, at a time like this, when the international system set up since the War is in jeopardy, we declare ourselves, without any qualification, believers in and upholders of the League of Nations as the best available instrument for international co-operation.
I must be allowed to say a word about isolation. We shall not get out of our difficulties by crying isolation when the conditions for isolation have disappeared and cannot exist. We shall not increase our influence for peace by declaring that it does not matter to us what our neighbours in Europe do or do not do. We have an immense moral authority to assert, for Britain has disarmed and has a right to speak. We seek to use that authority in the only way open to us, by making no special or select alliance with or against any Power, but by working for friendship and peace between all.
Now, Sir, I do apologise to the House for detaining it so long, but let me say something on the Locarno Treaties. The House may think it useful if I make a brief statement as to what the Locarno Treaty actually provides. Before we give any countenance to a campaign against the Locarno Treaties, which were devised to be one of the most effective instruments for peace in Western Europe, let us at least have a clear view as to what the Locarno Treaties say. The main instrument is a treaty of mutual guarantee between the United Kingdom, Belgium, France, Germany, and Italy, signed in 1925, on the 16th October, a day which I believe is also the birthday of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain).
Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Initialed on that day.
Sir J. SIMON: Yes, initialed. Many a birthday cake is marked with initials. The House will forgive me for making a very obvious point, but it is desirable that everybody outside the House should know. This Treaty is not an alliance of Britain and France against Germany; it is an inclusive agreement in which Germany, Belgium, France, Great Britain, and Italy are all parties. The arrangements made are purely defensive and are supplementary to the Covenant of the League. They do not constitute in any sense an alliance between certain Powers directed against other Powers. The signatory Powers severally and collectively guarantee the territorial status quo resulting from the frontiers between Germany and Belgium and between Germany and France, the inviolability of those frontiers, and the demilitarisation of the Rhineland.
What are our obligations under the Locarno Treaty? I am not going to argue the case on one side or the other, but just to state them. Our obligations may be summarised under four heads. First, if the Council of the League finds that a violation of the undertaking not to go to war against each other, contained in Article 2, has been committed by Germany, France, or Belgium, we are bound immediately to come to the assistance of the Power against whom the act complained of was directed. I observe that it is the Council of the League which is to make that finding, and in that case, as we are a permanent member of the Council, our assent is necessary to any finding. I do not suggest that it would not be given in a proper case, but our assent is necessary.
Secondly, if the Council finds that a breach of Articles 42 and 43 of the Treaty of Versailles—relating to the demilitarisation of the Rhineland zone —has been committed, we are bound to come immediately to the assistance of France or Belgium as the case may be. There again, let me state that our assent is necessary to the finding of the Council. That is the second case.
Thirdly, in the event of what is called a, flagrant violation of one or other of the above undertakings, which would really mean the case of something happening in so much of a hurry that you could not

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call a meeting of the Council of the League, we are bound immediately to come to the help of the injured party, if we are satisfied that the violation constitutes an unprovoked act of aggression, and that immediate action is necessary. In this case we are the sole judges as to whether our obligation is applicable.
Fourthly, and lastly, if either France, Belgium, or Germany refuses to submit a I dispute to peaceful settlement or to comply with an arbitral or judicial decision, we are bound to comply with any proposals which the Council may make as to the steps to be taken. In that case our assent is necessary to any and every proposal that the Council may make.
The House will therefore see—of course hon. Members mostly know it, but it is not a waste of time to state it for everybody—that, with one exception, the decision to be taken before the Treaty has operative effect must be taken by the Council of the League. The Council can take no such decision unless it be unanimous, and since the—Unite Kingdom is a permanent member of the Council, it is clear that no decision can be taken without our assent. The one exception that. I have mentioned arises if it is alleged that there is a flagrant violation of the undertaking not to go to war, and so forth, by one of the parties. Such a case might be so urgent that there would be no time to take it to the Council, and consequently we are bound to go immediately to the help of the injured party, but we are the sole fudges as to whether this obligation has become applicable. And in all this—a; very important fact—Italy stands in exactly the same position as we do ourselves.
The House will, therefore, observe that no British Government is blindly fettered by the Treaty of Locarno. We have by that Treaty assumed certain important obligations — I do not minimise them—along with Italy and the other Powers, in the interpretation of which we have a decisive voice. I must point out further that the Treaty which came into force in 1926 between the five European Powers cannot be denounced by us or by any other signatory by way of a unilateral act. It can be terminated only in the circumstances stated in Article 8, which, the House may take it, are not material to this purpose.
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Now Locarno was entered into as a contribution to the stabilising forces of Europe, and I would submit to the House that Locarno has not exhausted its influence in that respect. We shall not increase the power of those stabilising forces by announcing that we are completely indifferent whether the events referred to in the Locarno Treaty take place or not. It is the fact that we have pledged ourselves not to be indifferent which exercises restraint and which helps to keep solid the fabric of European relationships, and it provides an argument which we will use to all proper lengths to produce the limitation and reduction of armaments in other countries.
There is another question raised in certain quarters as regards the Treaty of Locarno on which I would say a word. The question is whether the obligations of this country would be ended if Germany, two years hence, carried out the intention of which she has given notice to leave the League of Nations. Let me first observe that Germany has the opportunity of withdrawing that notice at any time during the next two years, and the Government and, I am sure, the whole House earnestly trust that the course of events will result in her doing so. Besides, a great deal can happen, and a great deal will happen, in the next two years, and every influence that we can use will be on the side of reconciliation and peace. Do not let us speak to-day as if the march of future events was beyond the control of men of good will. The view of the Government, after consulting the Law Officers of the Crown, is that the withdrawal of any party to the Treaty of Locarno from the League does not of itself and by itself involve the release of all parties from their obligations under the Treaty. But the withdrawal of Germany, if indeed it ever were to become effective, would raise issues of so far-reaching a character that it would be impossible to make any public statement upon them without careful consideration in consultation with the other parties to the Treaty.
I would most earnestly deprecate the discussion of these hypotheses, which can only serve to create apprehension and, it may be, to cause misapprehension. Much as we deplore Germany's recent action, and unjustified as we think it to be, that is no reason for treating the door which she has slammed as though it was bolted,

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locked, and barred, and we shall seize every opportunity of getting and keeping in touch with her as well as with the other signatories of the Treaty of Locarno. Our own influence in the cause of disarmament would not be increased—it would be fatally prejudiced —if the existence and effect of the Locarno Treaty were not fully borne in mind. I think I heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs whisper an observation, which was quite justified. The promotion of general disarmament was one of the objects envisaged by the Treaty; there were speeches made in the Locarno Debate in 1925 which stressed this very point; and while it is true that, without apportioning blame, there has been sad delay in achieving agreed disarmament, (but not a moment has been lost in working for it), no friend of the cause should make disarmament more difficult than ever by suggesting that assurances to which Britain has put her hand are assurances which we are prepared to ignore.
Here again we shall be glad of a little information from the official Opposition. I notice that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, their Leader, was one of a small band of 13 who voted against the Locarno Treaty when it came before the House eight years ago. It is a perfectly consistent attitude to oppose a treaty at the time of its negotiation, but to accept it and stand by it after it has been ratified and approved. And in a recently published pamphlet called, "Labour's Foreign Policy, "to which the right hon. Member for Clay Cross puts his name, the Locarno Treaty is treated as an obligation upon which the Labour party would insist. It will be interesting to know from the right hon. Gentleman whether this is the view of himself and his party as a whole.
There is one remaining point that I must make. The House will have seen reported in the newspapers of to-day a speech made in Berlin last night by the German Foreign Minister. It is, of course, a speech made in the final stage of the general election campaign, and in so far as the speech contains an attack upon the structure of the League of Nations and the contents of the Covenant it will, I am sure, be read with sincere regret by all who have honestly striven to work this new Geneva system with
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due respect for the rights of others and with a real understanding of Germany's feelings. But it is not that passage of Baron von Neurath's speech to which I wish to direct special attention. There was a final paragraph in which the German Foreign Minister declared that the Germans were making to the other Powers an "honest and trustful offer, "and in which he invited foreign Governments "to take the hand Germany stretched out to them. "I recall in the same connection the statement made a short time ago by Chancellor Hitler in which he indicated his wish to get into closer communication with the French with a view to trying to promote accommodation. We most earnestly trust that these statements may lead, in some form or other, to the renewal of contact, and that this object will be pursued by whatever method is found most useful and appropriate. The British Government have shown themselves prepared to consult with other Governments in this spirit. We have never been sticklers for method if we can help the result, and we shall continue our efforts and invite other Governments to continue theirs.
I have laid before the House to the best of my power, as I undertook to do, a plain statement of the attitude of the Government and of the position of this vital question. We believe our attitude to be not only the attitude of the Government, but the feeling of the nation. These recent events abroad have given occasion for a demonstration of the intense devotion of this country to the cause of peace and of its overwhelming desire to see general disarmament brought about. Peace and Disarmament are not party issues. It is no service to Peace, it is no service to Disarmament either, to try to make them party issues. They are the common interest and the common objective of every one of us; and the Government have done and are doing and will do everything that can be done to promote and to attain this first and over-riding purpose of international policy.
5.18 p.m.
Mr. LANSBURY: The right hon. Gentleman, in his concluding words, said that peace was not a party question and that everybody desired peace. That is perfectly true, but peace is like many other good things that people hope to achieve; people very often fall out as to

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the means by which to attain their end, and we profoundly disagree with the right hon. Gentleman and his Government. The right hon. Gentleman has been rather badly served to-day by his political devils. I hope that his legal devils do not serve him so badly. If they had treated him better, he would never have made that pernicious attack on my hon. and learned Friend. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Why not? "] In the first place, young as my hon. and learned Friend may be, he is in excellent company for the sort of denunciatory language used about him by the right hon. Gentleman. I happen to have sat upstairs in the period from 1876 to 1880, when I heard Mr. Gladstone denounced in exactly the same language by Tory speakers of that day simply because he took up an attitude against Mr. Disraeli. The recent letters published in connection with that episode in the life of Mr. Gladstone show that that denunciation was supported in very high quarters indeed in this country. To be told, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has been told to-day, that he is a friend of every country but his own because he happens——[HoN. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear! "] All that it means is that the right hon. Gentleman happens to disagree with us. That is all.
Sir J. SIMON: I have no personal feelings in the matter, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell me what is his view of the statement made by the hon. and learned Gentleman.
Mr. LANSBURY: If the right hon. Gentleman will have as much patience as the rest of us have had, I will tell him. I shall not match his legal eloquence, of course. I am perfecty certain, after having heard him in this House make very able speeches on one subject two ways, that he is able to make as good a case for as against. I cannot hope to match that. I am only an ordinary person.
Mr. O'CONNOR: The right hon. Gentleman has done the same.
Mr. LANSBURY: I am not trained that way, and I am very glad I am not. If the hon. and learned Gentleman will have the decency just to behave himself —now the Attorney-General is interrupting. I suppose it is a case of trade unionists taking care of each other. The
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right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary was good enough to say that in taking a line against the Convention to-day we were doing something which we had not done previously. We never have accepted this Convention. In the discussion that took place on the Consolidated Fund Bill on 23rd March this year, my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) and the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) spoke for us. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower said:
"We recognise the dangers in putting figures forward in that way…. I have gone into those figures, and I find that there is room for considerable reduction before any marked advance is made in the direction of disarmament…. I would like the House to look at those figures with me, and I think we shall find that the best proposals that the Primo Minister could make provide for a personnel of 2,000,000 in land forces serving at home in Europe, with an additional 500,000 … for service at home and abroad. Those are the figures prescribed in the Prime Minister's plan for disarmament—2,500,000 land forces, making no allowance for the forces by sea or in the air. Those figures, we submit"—
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take notice that we queried the basis of the Convention from the start—
"are much too high and do not register any marked advance towards Disarmament."
That was our position nearly a year ago, And it is our position to-day.
"We are to have, under the plan, 200,000 soldiers for serving at home, and we are to have an additional 200,000 for service at home and abroad."
The hon. Member for Gower went on to say:
"We believe that Disarmament should be discussed not with a view to maintaining the balance of Europe"—
he meant the balance of power in Europe—
"not with a view to maintaining the relative strength of the great Powers compared with the small Powers, not with a view of satisfying the ambitions of any one country at the expense of the other, but we believe that Disarmament should be discussed as a problem of real Disarmament, of doing away with arms. We understand that the House, and the Prime Minister too, at one time, believed that safety was not possible so long as we carry arms in our hands. No safety can be found in that way. The only way to get safety and security is by renouncing war, as it has been done in the Kellogg Pact, the Pact of Paris."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 23rd March, 1933; cols. 521–25, Vol. 276.]

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Then my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Bristol made a very long statement on the subject in which he pointed out that the Covention, from our point of view, was
"based upon this sort of Principle—1' We stand largely where we were as regards our chief armament, other nations are reduced in their chief armaments, and Germany is allowed to re-arm.' That does not seem to us to be the conception which lay behind the Treaty of Versailles. The idea behind that treaty was that the disarmament of Germany was to he a first step, to which others would come later. It was never agreed or understood that Germany was later to come up to the level of the others, and any Convention which proceeds upon the basis of a substantial re-arming of Germ many must, in our view, be following a wrong idea. The most that one can say of this Convention is that it is a very meagre step towards Disarmament, and, on the whole, if Germany is to be permitted under it to re-arm to the strength indicated, it may well be a worse thing than having the present state of affairs."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st March, 1933; col. 608, Vol. 276]
It seems to me that the gentlemen who look up quotations for the right hon. Gentleman might have taken the trouble to look up that Debate. The charge was that in saying that the Convention would make things worse my hon. and learned Friend was saying something new. The right hon. Gentleman wanted to know what I thought about it, and I am telling him that nearly a year ago the same thing was said in this House. I am sure that the Foreign Secretary is as well able to understand that as I am. The right hon. Gentleman was at some pains to tell us how unanimously it was received as a basis, and almost in the same breath he told us that in June, because everybody thoroughly disagreed with it, the Conference had to break up and adjourn until October. It seems to me that he is on very weak ground indeed there. The right hon. Gentleman was very indignant, and the Lord President of the Council wrote letter the other day expressing great indignation at the malicious statements that were being made about the danger of re-armament and the fact that the Tory party was not in favour of Disarmament.
The right hon. Gentleman takes a good deal of notice of what happens at Labour party conferences and warns the nation against the terrible consequences of carrying out their policies. I suggest
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to him that if he wants to know the mind of his own party on the question of Disarmament he should read the resolution passed by his friends, because his caucus has as much weight with his party as ours does with us. I know that we are supposed to be living, or are going to live, under the beneficent rule of a sort of trinitarian arrangement which is to be arrived at, and are to have our old friend the Tory party dressed up in another name; but for the moment we will take them as they are. First of all, I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that he has also been badly served about the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). He was on the talkies, and for a couple of days he was on the pictures, and then dropped out of the pictures all of a sudden, and nobody quite knows why. When the company which was showing the pictures was asked for the reason it gave no reason at all. It put on afterwards admirals and generals, retired and otherwise, and they all warned us solemnly that if this pernicious pacifist policy, either of the Government or the Opposition, were continued—well, woe to England. It was said that we must have more armaments. Whether it is to be another case of "We want eight, and we won't wait" I do not know, but the picture of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs was taken off and jingo pictures were put on. But to come back to this Conservative Conference of which the Lord President does not seem to have heard. Lord Lloyd—I do not know if you know him; apparently his name causes some surprise—received a tremendous ovation both on rising and when he concluded his speech. He moved the resolution:
"That this Conference desires to record its grave anxiety in regard to the inadequacy of the provisions made for Imperial defence"
In his speech he said:
"We are sick and tired of seeing the Conservative party pledged to these internationalist doctrines and these pacifist doctrines."
Very much what the right hon. Gentleman interpolated in his speech this afternoon. Lord Lloyd went on to say:
"It is nothing but folly to go on disarming when everybody else refuses to follow that example."
Yes, but I would like to ask Lord Lloyd, or whoever speaks for the Government,

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to tell me who it is we wish to arm against, which of our Allies it is that we are preparing to "go for. "I would like to know. Nobody will answer that question. Then there was Lord Londonderry, speaking on 27th October. He is a member of the Government, and I dare say the Lord President has beard of him.
This is a good disarmament speech:
"Our armed forces are the insurance for peace and the wealth of this country, and if we are called on to pay a higher premium, well, we are willing and anxious to do it."
Further, he said:
"We may have aimed too high. Some people believe we might have formed a convention to eliminate war. That was an idealistic conception. We must do our hest to influence people in every part of the world that war shall be postponed as long as possible."
The First Lord of the Admiralty also made a speech, and said:
"We cannot have any more one-sided disarmament. We cannot always be idealists, we must face realities, and remember that it is not peace time Navy estimates that cost money; it is war. And wars are not made by a strong British Navy, they are prevented by it."
Then as to what is happening now. Sir Ernie Chatfield said at Sheffield—that is a good place for the gentleman to make his speech—at Sheffield, the home of munition manufactures:
"The nation must take stock of its defence position and consider whether, on its present naval expenditure, it is maintaining a naval strength in accordance with its policy."
Sir Walter Iiunciman—I beg pardon—the President of the Board of Trade, put in his spoke at the same dinner. Speaking of Sir Ernie Chatfield's speech, he said:
"I have no doubt that to-night he was right when he said that we are working right up to the limit of the London Naval programme. I hope we are, not only for the sake of the nation, but for the sake of Sheffield."
Nothing like leather. The municipal elections were the next day. What about party propaganda there I Then there is Lord Lloyd again, speaking at the Navy League dinner in London on 19th October:
"The leaders of every party have preached pacificism. They forget that when Nelson expected every man to do his duty, he did not expect every man to do his duty by Geneva or the League of Nations."
He is a good internationalist. I am sorry he is not here. Next I would like
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to call attention to this, because apparently we take notice of newspapers now. The right hon. Gentleman does not always quote the "Manchester Guardian. "A paper which is not at all friendly to me or to my friends, that is, the "Times, "in a leading article on 12th October, commenting on this Resolution—of which the Lord President, of course, had not heard—Said:
"The second attack was delivered against the alleged inadequacy of the provision made by the Government for national defence. Here the assailants scored a tactical victory by securing unanimous approval for a resolution which, if literally interpreted, enjoins an immediate measure of rearmament by this country."
I think the right hon. Gentleman owes my friends an apology for sending that very strong denunciation of them to a candidate in the by-election at Skipton. We can only judge by what his party say through their recognised organisation, and I think that what I have read proves that we were justified in saying that the Tory party were demanding an increase in armaments, which in our view must inevitably lead to war. Then the right hon. Member for the Spark-brook Division (Mr. Amery) —I am sorry he is not here, but that is not our fault —said:
"If those theorists could not tell them what was going on in the world and had no memory to remind them of history the Conservative party at least could give a straight answer to those Socialists and dreamers— "
Remember, we are all Socialists now—
"by unanimously passing this Resolution". That is the resolution to which I called attention. He went on:
"Armaments were not the cause of war. They were the instruments by which the aggressor brought about that war. They were equally the instruments by which the peace lover kept the peace."
Then there is a gem from the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), which I am so sorry he is not present to hear, because he was a Member of the Liberal Government from, I think, 1906 to 1914, and was responsible, with Lord Grey and the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, for the policy of the Liberal party up to the time of the War. This is what he says about his colleagues:
"It was the bleatings of Liberal pacifists which encouraged pre-War Germany to build her Navy."

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So the people now responsible for the War are not the Kaiser, not the War Lords in Germany, but the bleating Liberal pacifists. I am not sure that the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) was not one of the bleaters. The point I want to make on this is that we are living in days, as I would remind the Lord President, when more people read than ever before, when more books are written than ever before, and when statesmen write about one another during their lifetime more than ever before. [Interruption] No, you do not. I said "statesmen.' I am not sure that it is not a compliment to leave out the right hon. Gentleman. I will say to his face what I have said behind his back, that I do not believe he would be capable of writing the muck that has been written by some statesmen about men they have for years worked for, simply to get themselves out of any responsibility for actions for which they were responsible. As I was saying, people are able to read now and are able to weigh up the sort of situation which arises out of the conditions which the Conservative Conference has set going. No one can say that there is not in this country grave unrest, and a very great feeling of distrust, not because of anything we have said, but because of the things said and written by members of the Tory party, and influential members of it at that. The Government must clear them out of the way before they drop on us.
There is another thing which is causing a great deal of unrest. Armament firms are now doing remarkably well in this country. To whom are they supplying arms? I understand that we supply about one-third of the total world export trade in armaments, and I think it is a, disgraceful thing that we should be doing that. I said we are supplying about one-third of the total world export trade in arms, that is, we are supplying more than one-third of the total arms that are exported by manufacturing countries to other countries. During October, 340 highly skilled armament workers were taken on by Sheffield firms. Those people had been unemployed for years. The exports of nickel, a very large percentage of which is used in
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making armaments, have amounted to 13,000 tons during the past 10 months, an increase of 700 per cent. over the same period last year. Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited, are extending their explosive works at Ardeer, in Ayrshire, where at present they are employing 2,000 men. Since 12th March armament shares have risen. On 21st October, that is, in seven months, they had risen as follow: The Birmingham Small Arms shares had gone up 109 per cent. Armament firms, I am talking about. [Interruption] This will not do. I think hon. Members will find that I am quite right. The de Havilland Aircraft Company, Limited—I dare say that you will tell me that they do not make bombers, but their shares are now standing at 42. Imperial Chemical shares have gone up 20 per cent.
I have here a long list of people who hold shares in these armament firms, and if hon. Gentlemen will have patience they will know the point of this in a minute. It may very well be that many of us on this side say nothing that is worth while listening to, but we do listen to you. I am going to make a point about the armaments later on, and if hon. Members take no notice of what I am saying now, they will not understand the point. I was saying that I have a long list of names of ministers, ex-ministers, bishops and other respectable people who hold shares in these concerns. I think that they ought not to do so. The capital of Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited, is £70,000,000. They control the whole British chemical industry, with perhaps one or two small exceptions, and the principal and interest on their 5 per cent. guaranteed debentures—this is a point that I want hon. Members to grasp—are guaranteed by His Majesty's Government, which means that it is considered necessary to see that Imperial Chemical Industries are kept going, so as to be ready when you want a little poison gas. I should like to ask—and I hope that someone will give me an answer—that au inquiry should be made, either through the Board of Trade or some other Department, in view of the secrecy that prevails over the whole question of the private manufacture of armaments, in regard to instituting in this country a definite system of Governmental inspection of armament firms, together with the

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publication of all figures of armament production in this country month by month. That would show the nation how much money private people are making out of the sending abroad of armaments which might be used against our country, if unhappily we went into war, and what armaments we are producing for our own use in this country.
I want to touch on some points which the right hon. Gentleman left out of account, and the first is that 12 months ago, when we discussed this question, every speaker agreed, in regard to the World Economic Conference, that the settlement of the economic conditions of the world was a condition precedent of any settlement of the Disarmament question. I want to make it quite clear that we do not think that peace and Disarmament alone can preserve the peace of the world. We think that it is a terrible mistake that the Economic Conference should have faded out as it did, and that apparently no immediate effort is to be made to reconstitute it. We do riot think that you can settle this question of the peace of the world—that is, ordinary peace and war, as men and women understand it—until you have settled the economic and financial warfare that goes on day by day between nations. We also think that until you get international control of raw materials and markets, by some authority set up by the nations, by which you can have equitable distribution of the raw materials of the world, you will never be able to be certain that peace will be secured, no matter to what agreements you may come.
If I may give an instance of what I mean, no one at present worries about the Sahara Desert. There is nothing there of any value to anyone. No one wants to annex it, though I was told the other day that, owing to the development of flying, we may be falling out as to the control of the air stations in certain portions of that desert. I hope that we shall not. Anyhow, I think that I am correct in saying that it is those portions of the world where there are rich natural resources that cause nations to go to war with one another. A further fact is that the right hon. Gentleman has taken a great deal of trouble—and I admire the skill with which he did it—to make out his case about the Disarmament Conference itself, but he left out of account,
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in our judgment, the most fatal blunder and, in our view, the worst part of the Government's policy and the worst failure of the League of Nations. I was asked to-day about Locarno and so on. All that is quite true. I voted against the Locarno Treaty. It is also true that our party, like every other party, is bound by treaties until we can negotiate and remove the treaties. To-day I heard, in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, that in the last resort the Government, that is, this Government, or the French Government or any other Government pledged by the Locarno Pact, individually were to be the judges of what action they would take. I think that I am correct in saying that in the Treaty itself there is no word of war or armed force. Any Government might agree to quite other measures of trying to deal with a recalcitrant nation or Government that was opposing what was considered to be the best interests of those who had made the agreement.
Therefore, I do not think that I am called upon to do more than to say that we know perfectly well that if there is a treaty we cannot say that that treaty is wiped out without first negotiating with the other parties concerned. I want to say to the House and to the right hon. Gentleman that you must not pick and choose what treaty you are going to adhere to. There is the Covenant of the League of Nations. One of the greatest countries in the east of the world has smashed that to atoms, and it has also smashed the Kellogg Pact and the Nine-Power Pacific Treaty. Until this country, and all other nations, measure out to small and weak nations, and to powerful and strong nations, the same treatment, there is not much hope of getting respect for treaties—none at all. Our charge against the Government all through has been their supineness in this matter.
I know that the right hon. Gentleman has made very learned speeches about the Japanese situation, but he has never been able to get over the fact that Japan acted like an international pirate, is now still in possession of her neighbour's territory and is threatening war against the Russian Soviet Republic. I respectfully point out to the House that you cannot have respect for treaties if you sit down and accept that situation merely by getting a resolution through the League

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Assembly condemning what has taken place. I think that action ought to have been taken long ago to deal with that. [An HON. MEMBER: "What sort of action?"] I have already told the House what sort of action. It is provided for under the League of Nations. I am standing by the League of Nations right through and all the time, even though some of the provisions would be against what I would like to do. I should stand by it, because it is only by collective action that anything can be accomplished. All nations who signed the Kellogg Pact agreed that disputes of whatever nature or of whatever origin that might arise among them, shall never be settled by other than pacific means. It may very well be that I do riot understand the English language, but when I read that and cheered it in this House, I thought that it meant that we were outlawing war altogether, and that there would not be any more need for armaments.
The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that we and the people who think like us are unfair and unjust to the Government. We are not. All that we ask is that the Government shall be just to themselves. They are responsible for making the nation, and all nations believe that, when the Kellogg Pact was signed, the men who put their names there meant what it said, that no dispute should ever go to the arbitrament of war. The reason why people are losing faith is simply because nations and statesmen either do not understand what they sign or do not mean what they sign. It must be one or the other. When ordinary people, like those with whom I associate, have to sign a document, they are supposed to understand what they sign. If they go to a lawyer afterwards and complain that they did not understand it, the lawyer says to them: "You should have employed one of us, and we would have told you what it was. "The language of the Kellogg Pact is so simple. It is so explicit, and yet we are faced with the fact that Japan has smashed it and, so far, the League of Nations appears to be absolutely powerless.
Then there have been the South American nations who were also members of the League. They have gone to war with each other quite cheerfully, after signing those pacts. Is there any wonder that people like me ask: "What do
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these people mean? "As I said a moment ago, either they do not understand what they have signed or they do not mean it. We must take this other thing into account in judging the present situation. The one nation that has got back what it felt should never have been taken away from it is the Turkish nation, who took back Constantinople by force. The great Powers that had sworn to defend the treaties left this country, as it were in the lurch, and Kemal Pasha was practically able to dictate his own terms. Can you wonder that people are asking themselves why it is that nations signing these agreements should continually throw them over in this way? I should be very glad if some person more experienced in foreign affairs will try to explain to me—not only to me but to the country—why these things happen, and why it is that, when a treaty is signed, statesmen do not stick to it. There have been dozens of these pacts and agreements—Four-Power, Five-Power, and the Covenant of the League of all the Powers—and at the end we are in the position in which we are to-day, of facing a European situation which, in our view, has been brought about mainly because the Peace Treaties which were forced upon the conquered nations contained within them the seeds of future wars. Until these are all brought up for revision, I do not think you can expect, even within Capitalism, any sort of settlement in Europe.
There is a party in the country here that is devoting itself to the task of securing a revision of the Treaty concerning Hungary. A number of representatives from all over the House have gone to Hungary. I have received a very big book about the condition of things in Hungary, and I have received a statement signed by a large number of Members pledging themselves to secure a revision of the treaty concerning Hungary. I know also that other nations besides Germany and Hungary are asking for revision, and the reason why they are asking for it, and the reason why Members of this House of all parties can see the justice of it in the case of Hungary, is because the conditions imposed were impossible conditions, and bound to lead to the situation with which we are faced now.

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We are faced, too, with this—and I want to make this clear when speaking on revision. We who sit here would never vote for placing any more people under the control of any Fascist rulers in Europe. If this were forced on us, we could not help ourselves, but with our good will neither Germany nor Hungary nor anybody else can have the sort of revision which would bring other nations within the scope of revision while they are persecuting people in the fashion in which they are being persecuted in Germany to-day.
The other thing that I want to say on that line is that, when we are obliged, as the right hon. Gentleman said we are obliged, to be, as it were, friendly towards the Hitler regime—that we cannot go to war to change the rulers in Germany, Austria or elsewhere—that is true but it is equally true that we must find some means of negotiating with them in order to bring to an end if possible the present difficulties. I want to say this about them. I do not know whether Herr Hitler is an honest man or not. I listen to him over the wireless very often, and I know that he must be a very effective speaker anyhow. But I also know this, that at the moment he and his friends are in control in Germany, and, not once, but several times, they have said they are willing to accept the same disarmament as everybody else. They have asked for equality of status. Stalin, who acts as another dictator on another line in Russia, put forward, through M. Litvinoff, the statement at one of the Conferences, and has never gone back on it: "If you want disarmament, let us disarm. "He said that they were ready to disarm right down to the very lowest; and I have seen a statement by Signor Mussolini that Italy is willing to go down to the very lowest with everybody else. Why should not our Government take them at their word? Why should not we say the same thing?
Our charge against the Government with regard to these last 12 months—the last two years—is that for a long period they took no real active interest. Other people made proposals, and these proposals again and again were more or less turned down or damned with faint praise by the Foreign Secretary whenever he had to speak, and he asked that a cer-
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tarn Commission should examine details as to what armaments should be scrapped. We think it is time that all these experts were put out of the business altogether. When you get one naval expert glorifying the British battleship as the best security for peace in the world, we think that is rather "tall, "but we also think that it is no argument against the abolition of the battleship. We think, further, that discussing battleships and submarines and tanks is all beside the point. Today I want to put to the House the perfectly simple proposals that were gut forward at Hastings. The Prime Minister, I have no doubt, has read these proposals, but we are going to ask him whether we can have a day to discuss them definitely. We should prefer not to put them down as a Vote of Censure, because we should like to take the considered judgment of the House on them as proposals to put before the Disarmament Conference. We desire that people shall be able to vote fairly and squarely on them, without being forced to vote for censure with which, perhaps, they will not agree. Of course, if we cannot get a day without putting censure in, we shall most certainly censure the Government, and be very glad to do so, but we are always told that we are partisans, that we think more of our party than we do of peace, and we want to give the House the opportunity of thinking about peace instead of about party. I am sure a number of the Liberal Members will agree with what I am going to read out, because I notice that the Liberal candidate at Skipton has adopted them nearly all. It may help them to vote with us if we leave the censure part out, because it is very difficult for them to censure a Government which they so frequently support.
I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he will give an answer, through whoever is going to reply to the Debate, as to whether he will agree that we shall continue this discussion, but with a Motion embodying these proposals: that we shall affirm our belief in the total disarmament of all nations throughout the world, and the creation of an international police force, and call upon the British Government at the Disarmament Conference to abandon its retrograde attitude on the question of air bombing—
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to insist upon his epithet?
Mr. LANSBURY: I will read it again:
"That this House favours the total disarmament of all nations throughout the world, and the creation of an international police force; calls upon the British Government at the Disarmament Conference to abandon its retrograde"—
the right hon. Gentleman wanted to leave that out. Leave it out if you like; that is all right. You see, you are all so full up with your own. party spirit that you cannot believe that I want to do something that will take us above party. I am perfectly willing to leave the word "retrograde "out, and to say:
"to abandon its attitude on the question. of air bombing, and to submit proposals for a large and important reduction in the expenditure of all nations on armed forces, for the general abolition of all weapons forbidden to Germany by the Treaty of Versailles, for the abolition of military aircraft, for the international control of civil aviation, and for the suppression of all private manufacture of and trade in arms"—
that is why I made that statement just now; I wanted to show what a very lucrative business it is in this country—
"for the suppression of all private manufacture of and trade in arms, and for strict international inspection and control of the execution of the Disarmament Treaty."
That is not so long a document as the right hon. Gentleman and the Prime Minister produced in the early part of the year for Geneva. We produced this at Hastings, and we would like it to go to Geneva as the basis for a convention between the nations. It may be, of course, that it will be turned down, but I want this House to say what it wants done, not what other people want done. What we want is that our nation shall say quite definitely and distinctly that this is our policy, which we advocate and which we invite other people to support. If we are turned down, we cannot help it, but let us take our stand on realities; let us be realists for once. These proposals really contain the whole of the proposals necessary to bring Germany into line with ourselves, and us into line with Germany.
I want to say this, too; I think I have already said it, but I must repeat it here. This means disarmament. As we understand the Government's proposals, and
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that is why we objected to them nine months ago, they mean re-armament by Germany, and we are confident that, if Germany starts re-arming—some people say she is already doing so, and has been doing so—that ought to be stopped quite definitely. But, further than that, our case is that, if you allow Germany to increase her armaments by a Convention, that must of necessity mean war in the very near future. Nations do not arm merely for the fun of the thing, and we believe that the only way out, and the only proper line to take, is to bring the whole of the armaments of Europe down, and not allow Germany to re-arm in any way whatsoever.
I hope, when the right hon. Gentleman asks me what our policy is, that he will understand that these proposals that I have read out are the proposals of the Labour party, they are the proposals to which we all adhere and they are the proposals which, one way or the other, we shall ask the Government to give us facilities for discussing at the earliest possible moment. We do not want them treated as an ideal, as something to reach forward to. We believe that it is practical politics for all the countries that signed the Kellogg Pact. It is the logical outcome of the Kellogg Pact. We want them to be voted upon by the House as instructions to the Government and as the basis on which a new road to Disarmament and Peace may be laid. We do not at all put them forward as anything tentative, but as proposals to which we want to pledge the Government.
Finally, we are not isolationists, neither are we in favour of the old balance of power theory of safety. Neither do we accept the theory that one group of capitalist Governments is more worthy than another. We really believe in the League of Nations. We do not want five-Power pacts, or any other unit of nations. We want the League of Nations to be an all-embracing League, embracing the whole of the nations, including Russia, Japan, America and Germany. I know that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will be able to gibe at me because of my ultra-pacifist views on war and armaments generally. There is a certain amount of inconsistency even in living in a world such as we live in to-day. I am under no delusion about that. I am not speaking here as one who considers himself any better or worse than the average

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man. The position in which the world is, as far as I can see, is exactly the same as it has been over and over again in the history of my not short lifetime. I have heard similar speeches made in this House by great men, statesmen and others, who have told the country what would save them, and they have always been wrong. The ordinary people have always been right.
The average man and woman who live in the back streets do not want war. They do not understand why people should want war, and they only go to war when they are told by people like those who sit around me here that the country is in danger. I do not know how many thousands of my people, boys whom I knew when they were born, went out to the War. We sent a bigger percentage from my division than I believe any other area. Hardly any of them came back. I shall attend at the Cenotaph on Saturday and have a vision of those boys marching behind the drums when they first enlisted. There was not a boy, there was not a mother who did not believe that they were going out to fight to end war. There is not one of you who spoke on the recruiting platform who did not hold that out. I may be a fool and I may be a dreamer, but you practical men —you men who have all the power in your hands—see to it that you are true to those who went out with that slogan ringing in their ears— "Never again. "Also try to have a vision of the nearly 50,000,000 people bruised, battered, disease-ridden and destroyed in the War. Some people say you get a period of peace after a great war. No, not peace to those who are at the bottom. There can be no peace in the world, there never will be peace in the world until men learn to trust not to the power of their fists, not to the power of the gun, but to the power of righteousness and love for one another.
6.22 p.m.
Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: The whole House will regret that when discussing these grave matters of public policy, we are deprived of the counsel of my right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). His absence is felt nowhere more keenly than on these benches. The problem of peace, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred so feelingly in his concluding sentences, is perhaps the most fundamental political
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issue which this House or any other Assembly can discuss at present, for upon its solution not merely the future of our own country, the fortunes of nations and the destinies of Empires, but the survival of civilisation depend. The world has not yet recovered from the last War. One great nation crumbled into ruin and chaos. It is quite certain that, after a war fought with weapons more destructive even than those that were employed in the last, a, nation which survives will be fortunate indeed. Therefore, I hope and believe that the first result of this Debate will be to make it clear that there is among Members of all parties a unanimous, earnest and sincere desire for peace. I have friends among the leaders of every party, and almost every section of every party in the House, and I can testify from my own personal knowledge that there is not one who does not ardently desire, and would not make every sacrifice to preserve the peace of the world. The House and the people of Britain are united in their will for peace. Therefore, the Foreign Secretary was amply justified in claiming that peace is not a matter of party politics.
But equally justified was the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken in pointing out that, when we come to discuss the means whereby we are to secure peace, there are honest differences of opinion, and I hope the second result of this Debate will be to define more clearly the views of the different schools of thought and to make clear the differences of opinion that are held among different sections of the House. To say there is agreement when there is no agreement is like saying peace when there is no peace, and if we are insincere in attempting to gloss over these differences of opinion as to the methods to be adopted to secure the peace of the world, we shall find it the harder to convince foreign countries of our sincerity in the pursuit of our main objective of peace.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) made some reference to certain very strong expressions of policy, different from that which has been expounded to us to-day by the Foreign Secretary, which were made at the Birmingham Conference of the Conservative party. I think it is important for men of all parties to realise what actually was discussed and decided at that conference. There was, for

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example, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), who said:
"Ever since the War it had been the fashion of all the world to pay lip service to disarmament. Great Britain alone had taken it seriously. Had we contributed to the cause of peace? No. Armaments in themselves were not the cause of war"
There is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), who said:
"We had steadily disarmed, partly with a sincere desire to give a lead to other countries and partly through the severe financial pressure of the time. But a change must now be made. We must not continue longer on a course in which we alone were growing weaker while every other nation is growing stronger."
Again, what was even more significant was the action which that Conference thereupon took upon a motion that was upon the paper to approve the disarmament policy of the Government and to approve the reservation, which was originally made but of which I understand the Government in certain circumstances offered to consider the withdrawal at the request of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), on air bombing. The Conference refused to pass that part of the resolution which referred to disarmament, but passed the part which approved of bombing. At the same time, there was throughout the cinemas of the country and in the Press the beginning of a deliberate propaganda in favour of re-arming. These men whom I have quoted are all honourable, sincere, patriotic men, men who have rendered great services to the State and men of influence, leading important sections of public opinion in the country. I believe they all sincerely desire peace, but they do not believe that it can be attained by international negotiations through the League of Nations. Therefore, I think it is idle and harmful for the Lord President of the Council to pretend, as he did in that message which has already been criticised, that everyone is united in his party, great as his own services have been to the cause of disarmament and those of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham and Lord Cecil—it is idle to pretend that the whole of his party is united behind the policy of Peace and Disarmament which the Government are now pursuing.
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But there are also two schools of thought in the Labour party. There are those who follow the lead of the right hon. Member for Clay Cross (Mr. Henderson) and believe in a constructive policy of Peace and Disarmament through the League of Nations, and there are those who follow the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, who has told us many a time that in his hearts of hearts he believes in disarmament by example—unilateral disarmament. He has voted on many occasions for the abolition of the forces of the Crown. He has assured us to-day that he thinks we are bound by the Treaty of Locarno, and must stand by it. He further says—and I agree with him—that the re-armament of Germany must be prevented. How can it be prevented if the young men of the country listen to the appeal that he made to them the other day and refuse to enter the fighting services? There would then be no power left to prevent the re-arming of Germany. I, therefore, believe that this Debate will reveal that there are four main schools of thought in this House on the question of Peace and Disarmament. There are those who believe in disarmament by example. I think that such disarmament as we have carried out in the last few years, as has been shown by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to-day, is an essential part of the policy of this country, but it has met with no direct response in the reduction of armaments by other countries. Other countries have not, in fact, disarmed in the same proportion. We see abroad a pacific country like Switzerland, which remained neutral in the last War, now being compelled to fortify its frontier. Denmark, which went as far as to disarm completely, far from evoking any similar response from Germany finds that German propaganda is directed against her frontiers, and is now forced to re-arm. I believe that the practical effect of any further attempt to follow here the line of unilateral disarmament would be to increase the insecurity of Europe and to provoke further armament among those nations who are now content to rely in part upon us to stand by our obligations which we have assumed under the League of Nations. There are those who believe in a Continental alliance. That, to my mind, would be a fatal policy for us to pursue. It

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would inevitably lead to a counter-alliance and the precarious restoration of the balance of power. And it would lead also to the disruption of the British Empire, because undoubtedly the great countries of the British Empire would never allow themselves to be tied to a purely Continental foreign policy.
There are those who believe in the policy of isolation—an Empire in isolation, walled in behind tariff walls and quotas, behind battleships, submarines, aeroplanes and tanks. Armed cap-a-pie militarily and economically, such an Empire would inevitably attract the hatreds and jealousies of the whole world. The financial burden of its armaments would be such as to postpone indefinitely all hope of the recuperation of our national finances, of the lightening of the burden of taxation, and of the resumption of the march of social reform. Nor would the Dominions ever agree, on the one hand, to share in that almost overwhelming financial burden which such a policy would impose, or to cut themselves off from the United States of America and other countries and deprive themselves of that position of independence and influence in the councils of the world which they occupy at Geneva. I would say to the Imperialists who hold that doctrine that support of the League of Nations is a condition of British Imperial unity and co-operation. There remains the fourth policy, which is the constructive policy of Peace and Disarmament through the League of Nations. It is not easy: it is no panacea. It is not going to work quickly, but I have reached the conclusion, after examining all the other possible policies, that it is the only way in which we can reach the objective of a secure peace and disarmament.
I will very briefly examine what the main features of such a policy should he. I would say, firstly, collective guarantees of peace and the assurance of help against aggression. We therefore welcome the declaration which has been made both by the Government and by the Leader of the Opposition to-day—and we associate ourselves with those declarations—that this country is determined to stand by its obligations under the Locarno Treaty. The knowledge that the whole country is behind the Government in those undertakings is the stoutest bulwark of peace in Europe in these troubled times. Such guarantees are the only means of solving
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the problem, to which the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs referred, of reconciling the German demand for equality with the French demand for security.
Secondly, there must be a real, substantial and immediate reduction of armaments. Thirdly, no re-armament of Germany. I agree entirely with the Leader of the Opposition that such re-armament would indeed be a fresh and formidable factor of insecurity. We are not blind to Herr Hitler's writings or deaf to those exhortations which come through the ether to the German people to prepare for a coming war. Germany's neighbours—this country—would never consent to the re-armament of Germany. But, fourthly, Germany must be treated fairly and justly. It is true that we have a great record in this matter. This country helped Germany into the League, but the fact remains that the Allied countries have declared their intention of disarming and have not, in fact, disarmed. That intention must be fulfilled. For ten years Germany has been waiting for its fulfilment. The Nazi movement in Germany has thriven on the refusal of the Allies to implement that intention. Now is the time when it must be fulfilled. We have promised Germany equality of status in armaments. We must give it. We Liberals detest Hitlerism; we detest its revolting manifestations of tyranny and barbarism and its spirit of racial jingoism, but it battens on the refusal to meet Germany's just grievances, and can only be exorcised by fairness in the treatment of German claims. For the German war-monger we have nothing but resolute opposition, but we must assure the German people of our friendship and good will and our respect for their national dignity.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say what practical steps he proposes to prevent Germany from re-arming and to get the other nations in Europe to disarm?
Sir A. SINCLAIR: As regards the second question of the hon. and gallant Member I am now outlining a constructive policy of Peace and Disarmament but I do not intend to answer his first question. Before anybody would threaten Germany with any steps which might be taken if she did re-arm, we want proof that she is in fact re-arming. To issue a threat to

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take action against a country when it is not proved that she is arming would be a most improper policy. Certainly I say that we ought to be prepared. I join both with the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Leader of the Opposition and, I believe, with the whole of this House, in the determination that there shall be no re-armament of Germany.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR Vice-Admiral TAYLOR rose—
Sir A. SINCLAIR: I am very anxious not to keep the House; I know that a great number of Members want to speak, and I think I had better not give way.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman prepared to admit that this country should use force to prevent Germany from re-arming?
Sir A. SINCLAIR: I am not prepared to threaten force to anybody who has not been proved not to have fulfilled their obligations. The time to threaten force is when proof is given of failure to do so. I have certainly made it clear that whatever methods might be used, they must be effective. I would put it like that Whatever methods were taken they must lie such as would be effective to stop the re-armament of Germany, and I gather that is exactly what the Leader of the Opposition and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs have said. Of course. such steps as would be taken would not be taken by any one Power or by two Powers acting in alliance, but would be taken under the aegis of the League of Nations as a whole. I would say further to the hon. and gallant Member that if such an emergency arose, it would be of fundamental and essential importance that the peoples of the world should feel that they were on firm moral ground, and that just and fair treatment had in fact been offered to Germany.
What I would state as an instance in regard to which I am doubtful as to whether justice has in fact been given to Germany is the question which the Foreign Secretary raises of disarmament by stages; which was in its inception and in essence a fair proposal but which seems to have degenerated into the conception of a period of probation. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has repudiated the idea of a period of
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probation, but he has not made it clear that it was generally repudiated at the Disarmament Conference, or that he there definitely opposed it, and I hope that it will now be made clear that we are not asking Germany to accept a period of probation. It is, moreover, abundantly clear that if the nations insist, as they ought to insist, on Germany remaining without certain weapons, then all nations must equally accept the abandonment of those weapons. Fourthly, we think that no scheme of armament limitation would be complete without a scheme of budgetary limitation. Fifthly, we think, too, that the problem to which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition referred, and which we have often raised also—the problem of the private manufacture of arms—is one which must be seriously tackled in any Convention. Lastly, but by no means least important, must be a universal, real. and thorough inspection and supervision of armaments equally applied to all countries.
Therefore, I hope that as a result of this Debate four useful purposes will be served. Firstly, our sincerity and unity in the cause of peace and disarmament will be clearly shown. Secondly, as regards the methods we should pursue, to define clearly the views held by the different schools of thought. Thirdly, to show, as only a frank and open debate can satisfactorily show, that the overwhelming majority in this House is in favour of the constructive policy of Peace and Disarmament by agreement through the League of Nations. And I hope that the fourth result of this Debate will be to spur the Government to redouble their efforts to bring about an agreement between those Powers who are still members of the Disarmament Conference, and ultimately between those Powers and the Government of Germany.
It would be idle for me to pretend that we on these benches are pleased with the achievements of the Government in the field of disarmament. On the contrary, we are profoundly dissatisfied and concerned about the situation with which we are faced at the present time. Far be it from me to under-estimate the good work which the Government have done. When the Prime Minister tabled that Draft Convention to which the Secretary

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of State for Foreign Affairs referred, I paid my tribute to the courage that he had shown in putting down the facts, the figures and the dates of disarmament. Far be it from me to suggest that the Government are solely responsible for the failure so far to achieve that end, but they must share the burden of the responsibility. The will of the people of this country is for peace and disarmament, and it is clear and strong. The peoples of the world demand it and will not forgive failure. Success will be the reward of consistency of purpose, energy and faith.
6.47 p.m.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I agree with so much of what the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has said that I would rather dwell upon that agreement than follow him into some thoughts which he uttered and some statement he made which I think he would find it hard to justify. He called attention, however, to one point which I think to all of us must be very satisfactory. Once again, after considerable commotion and emotion, a great subject of national policy is brought upon the Floor of this House, and the first result is not to emphasise differences but to mark agreement as to the fundamental conditions on which British foreign policy has to be carried out, whatever men and whatever party sit upon that bench. Therein lies our strength, and I hope that that unity of national feeling may not be obscured by differences of methods or of reasons. I shall excuse myself also from following the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition in his wide survey of the world, literally from China to Peru, but there was one observation of his on which I hope he will permit me one word of comment. He said that he must confess that for one of his pacifist leanings there was some inconsistency even in continuing to live in a world organised as ours is. I hope that he will continue that inconsistency for many more years. We should be very sorry to lose him from this House, and his friends would be very sorry to lose him outside.
The Debate has not taken altogether the turn that I had expected. So far as the previous speakers who represent the views of parties in this House are concerned, they all appear to demand, not that we denounce Locarno, but to assert
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that we will maintain it. They have all agreed that though there have been deficiencies in the progress made towards the fulfilment of the hopes that we held out to Germany when she was called upon to accept disarmament, this country has shown a great example. Except for the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who believes that that example if carried to the point of complete disarmament would be more powerful still, there has been no voice in this House to suggest that we can safely go further except by general agreement. I had hoped that before I spoke my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) would have given his views to the House.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am going to do so.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I know that the right hon. Gentleman is going to give his views after I have spoken. He would have given me very real satisfaction if on this occasion he had been ready to speak before me and to have allowed me to follow him. The right hon. Gentleman has published broadcast to the world at large, and in a foreign Press, charges against his country and the Governments of his country which he may perhaps, I hope he will, be prepared to modify after listening to the speech of the Secretary of State to-day. His article—he knows the article to which I am alluding—did not, I think, serve the cause of Peace. Doing less than justice to his own country, that article and his other utterances have become welcome party propaganda of the dominant party in Germany. I do not suppose for a moment that that was my right hon. Friend's intention, but I do appeal to him in these matters to weigh his words a little more carefully and to remember that he is read by a wide circle and that the Germans are allowed to read only that which supports the very impression that the German Government want to produce upon their own people.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that one of the first essentials of an understanding of foreign affairs was to try to get into the mind and behind the mind of the other party and to understand why he does a certain thing. I agree with him. It is important that we should ask ourselves and try by any

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means open to us to ascertain why Germany left the Disarmament Conference and why she left the Disarmament Conference at that particular moment. She must have left it in the hope that she would bring the Disarmament Conference to an end, not with the good will of our Government or of our people. Be Germany present or be she not, we hope that that Conference will go on until it has framed a Convention, which will then be open to signature by Germany. In the framing of it we should be glad to have her co-operation, but it will be framed even if she refuses her co-operation. That Convention will be open to her signature and dependent for its operation upon her acceptance and ratification of it, and if that acceptance and ratification be refused all the world will know which country has disappointed its hopes and shut the doors against that new and better feeling which we hoped was entering into the relations of nations with one another.
I beg the House to remember that this is not the first time that Germany has prevented a Conference aimed at promoting peace and disarmament from reaching a successful result. It was Germany that prevented the Tsar's initiative at the Hague Conference from coming to fruition. It was Germany, in the years before the War, that repulsed with scorn and indignation every effort of the Liberal Government of the day to come to some terms for a limitation of the race in naval construction, and now it is Germany again who leaves the Conference and, as I say, seeks to bring it to an end. Why? Why at that moment? It is a very grave question, and the answer may be graver still.
What had happened? It is true that while no obligation was taken towards Germany on Disarmament on the part of the victorious Powers as a consequence of her signing and accepting the Treaty of Versailles, hopes were held out that that would be the first step to a general limitation of armaments. But I speak within my own knowledge when I say that no member of the British Government responsible for the Treaty of Versailles, responsible for the declaration in the Preamble of the Disarmament Section, or having responsibility for the letter which M. Clemenceau addressed
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to the Germans, in the name of the Allies—no member of the British Government contemplated that the limitation of armaments would be of such a character as to reduce the victor Powers to the level of disarmament which was imposed upon the vanquished. I say more, that when this very question was raised in the course of negotiations at Locarno—free negotiations, at which fall the Powers met as equals, where there was no "dictator "and no imposed peace, but an agreement freely reached—before these Treaties were initialled and long before they were signed the negotiators for this country and the negotiators for France told the Germans that, though we trusted and believed that the conclusion of the Treaty of Locarno would facilitate and hasten a large measure of disarmament, it was an unreasonable proposal to make that we should come down to the level which they had had to accept. And they signed the Treaty of Locarno in full knowledge that that was the view of the then British Government and the then French Government. It is no longer the view of the British Government and it is no longer the view of the French Government.
A year ago Germany withdrew from the Conference. We may well ask ourselves, when she has withdrawn a second time, whether it was wise to run after her and purchase her return. What good has it done us? What effect has it had except to persuade Germany that by such action she can extort her own terms instead of negotiating in a position of equality and as among friendly nations combining for the same purpose. At any rate, advances were made. The promise of equality of status by stages was given, and the Convention which was visibly shaping at the moment when Germany withdrew from the Disarmament Conference for the second time and gave notice also of her withdrawal from the League, was one which would have implemented that promise and given effect to it within a reasonable, indeed in a, very moderate, time. I understand from my right hon. Friend's speech and from what I have read in the papers that two periods of four years have been spoken of, but that there was no decision taken upon that and that the

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exact period either of the first stage or of the second was open to argument and adjustment.
What else was there? From the very first moment after the signature of the Treaty of Versailles, and even before it, the Germans protested vehemently against a section of the Versailles Treaty which was very dear to the heart of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs; that which refused them a conscript army and limited narrowly the number of the forces which they might maintain, and required that the men enlisted should be enlisted for a long period of years. They protested vehemently, and that is one of the chief grievances which they have consistently alleged, and one of the hardships—as they have said—of which they have most persistently complained, from that day till the moment when they saw a Convention taking shape that removed that grievance on condition that they were content with a militia the same as other countries would have, and did not continue this long-service army. They had said from the very early days of the Treaty that there must be inspection, at least they had said that they would accept inspection, provided that it was applied to all countries equally. When they said that, America was on record as saying that she would never accept it, and we were maintaining exactly the same ground. Then the American and British Governments, in order to facilitate the progress of this Convention and to get disarmament, agreed to waive their objections and to accept inspection on an equality applied to all countries irrespective of whether they were on one side or the other during the last war.
There were two vital claims: the main German claim to equality of status by stages being embodied and named in the Convention and their claim not to be condemned only to have this long-service army accepted, together with their claim that inspection should be general and their promise to accept it if it were equally applied. That is the moment at which they withdraw! Nobody in this country or in any other, after the mere recital of the facts by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary this afternoon, is going to say that the decision of the German Government was taken after his speech at Geneva, and still less on account of it.
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There may be some few fools in this world capable of believing it, but I think that they are all under restraint. Why did they choose to withdraw Is it because they have made of their hundred thousand men a body of officers and non-commissioned officers capable of filling those ranks in the vast army which is provided by the various Nazi forces, nominally civilian, but more highly disciplined, more highly trained than our own territorial forces? Is it because of this fact that, although they asked for this and nursed it as a grievance, yet when their claim is admitted they do not want to accept that for which they asked, and must find some way of preserving this force of elite, this spear-point for a great army, some way by which they can retain it and seek to shift the blame on to other shoulders?
The same thing is true with inspection. They said, "We will accept an inspection which is common to all, "knowing that America had said she would not accept it, knowing that we had said that we should hot accept it. When we are converted and consent, she then goes out. Are you not driven to ask if that claim was put forward not in the hope that it would be met, but in the hope that it would be refused: to give her an excuse for that re-armament of which my right hon. Friend below me spoke a few moments ago. I ask myself—and I wish I could give myself a reassuring answer —Did Germany come into this Conference sincerely desiring the limitation of armaments by others so that she might enjoy the security which they themselves sought; or did she come into it intending to secure through its failure some moral claim to re-arm, in order that she 'night once again—hot immediately but presently—use force as an instrument of policy to achieve her aims, be they Anschluss with Austria; be they the stripping of the Danish provinces from Denmark again; be they the recovery of Alsace and Lorraine, or be they some alteration of her Eastern frontiers which she is pledged again and again, by one treaty after another, not imposed at Versailles but voluntarily accepted since, never to seek except by peaceful means?
It is a grave question, and it has to be in the minds of all of us when we are deciding what policy we are to pursue. It does not shake my allegiance to the League of Nations; it does not shake my

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desire to see, in the interests of our own people and of all peoples, a great reduction in armaments. The withdrawal of Germany ought not in my opinion to prevent a Convention for that purpose from being signed, though it may be, with Germany out, that the Convention will be less favourable to Germany and less favourable to us all than it would have been if she had remained in. But it does mean that it is fatal to allow the German Government to suppose that by mere withdrawal it can extort terms which were not yielded to reason. It is fatal to allow it to suppose that there is the slightest weakening in the will of this nation, or in any other outside it, to maintain the Treaties we signed and to carry out our obligations, if they arise, in the spirit as well as in the letter.
If Germany withdraws from the League of Nations, if she withdraws from the Conference, she cannot withdraw from the Treaty of Locarno, and she is still bound, not merely by the Treaty of Guarantee to which we are a party, but by the Treaties of Arbitration which she signed with France, with Belgium, with Poland and with Czechoslovakia. She is still bound, if she cannot settle any dispute with any one of these nations by ordinary diplomatic or legal methods, to go to the arbitrament of the League, the Council of the League, of which she will become for the purposes of this dispute again a member. I was so much engaged in, and my name is so much connected, with those negotiations that I should sooner have left this to be said entirely by other people, but it is my firm conviction that, as the signature of the Treaty of Locarno did bring immediate relief from the tension of the preceding years, so it is just as we are loyal to the Treaty of Locarno and maintain it that we can hope for better things in the future and the relaxation of the present tension. I believe that if the key of peace can be said to be in the keeping of any one nation, it is on our hands, and that the knowledge of our loyalty—a knowledge not untested and not unproved—to our engagements—is the firm rock on which alone you can ever hope to build the reconciliation of France and Germany and to establish a stable peace on the Continent of Europe. If we withdraw, if we cast doubt upon our willingness to carry out
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our obligations, then as sure as I stand here our children, or it may be our children's children, will see let loose again upon a world still riot recovered from the disasters of the last War, another war more destructive and more fatal still.
7.15 p.m.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: My purpose in intervening in the Debate is to put a few questions to the Government, but before I do so I must say a word or two in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain). At the beginning of his speech, he administered a very characteristic rebuke to me. I say characteristic because he rather assumed to himself the position of a very portentous scolder, and said that I was responsible for delivering some speech which was not useful to the peace of Europe. I am not sure to what speech he was referring.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I was referring more specifically to the right hon. Gentleman's article which was published in the "News Chronicle "and copyrighted by the Hearst Press of America.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will deal with that later; and I propose to justify it. But I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he thinks that his speech is helpful to the peace of Europe? Does he think that at a time when advances are being made, to which the Foreign Secretary has referred in a most admirable and conciliatory spirit, it is helpful to the peace of Europe to make an attack upon the good faith of Germany? The right hon. Gentleman is naturally very proud of Locarno, and when he says that the peace of Europe depends upon the nations carrying out the obligations which they have undertaken I am entirely with him. But does he say that the signatories to the Treaty of Versailles, or to the Treaty of Locarno, have carried out their oligations in respect of disarmament? If he does, then he has not taken the trouble to ascertain the facts before he made his attack upon Germany.
May I give an explanation to the Foreign Secretary about my omission to repeat the statement, which I had already made in another speech, that this country had done its best to carry out her obligations under disarmament. The Foreign Secretary admitted that I

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said so in my speech, and may I add that w hen I wrote an article afterwards for the Hearst Press—[Interruption.] It has a gigantic circulation in the United States of America and anyone who laughs at this powerful organisation is not a friend to this country—I repeated the same statement and said that Great Britain had set an example and that Great Britain alone had done so. I did not even except the United States of America. Having made the statement twice I came to the "talkie," and I had not the advantage which the Foreign Secretary and his colleagues have of access to the Broadcasting Corporation whenever I want to make a speech. I had not a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes to ex-press my views on Disarmament, I had only three minutes, and you cannot present the whole of the arguments in that time. Had I known that it was not merely for this country, that it would he repeated abroad, I should certainly have put it in. I was told that it was purely for this country and did not put it in because I had already made the statement two or three times. I regret that I did not repeat my statement in that broadcast speech, and the moment I discovered that it was sent abroad I was exceedingly sorry that I had not put the statement in. It would have been just as well to have put it in seeing that the film might be used in Germany. I did what I could afterwards by writing an article on the subject.
Now I come to the questions I should like to ask the Government. First of all, with regard to the trouble that has arisen which has ended in the departure of Germany from the League. I am expressing no opinion as to whether Germany was justified or not on that occasion, but I should like to know the circumstances under which she left. When the Prime Minister produced his scheme in March Germany accepted it in principle. It was given a first reading; I am not sure whether it was given a second reading, but at any rate after a prolonged debate it was accepted and Germany recently has said "we stand by the British Draft Convention. "They have used those words officially. I want to know what has happened not perhaps to drive Germany from the League but to give her occasion for leaving the League. The Foreign Secretary was
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very clear in his explanation of the Prime Minister's proposals. When the Foreign Secretary wants to make himself clear there is no man in the House who can make a more lucid statement, but when he does not, when he wishes to be vague, a little confused, there is no one in the House who can do it better, not excepting even the Prime Minister.
I have been reading during the last few days the speeches of the Foreign Secretary explaining what happened at Geneva. I read his speech at Geneva. The relevant fact is that Germany is out for some specific reason which she gives. The question is whether there is any foundation for that. I read the broadcast of the right hon. Gentleman and reread it, and I cannot tell even now what it was that was proposed to Germany to which she objected. It clearly was not the MacDonald plan. What she objected to was the Simon plan, or some other plan, if the right hon. Gentleman repudiates parentage. There was obviously a difference. The 'Royal Institute of International Affairs have given a very clear explanation and they say that Germany objected for three reasons. The first was that a probationary period was imposed. They say that under the MacDonald plan there were several stages before reaching equality. Germany was prepared to accept that and was also prepared to discuss what those stages should be; she was not going out because the stages were too small or inadequate. But she said that a probationary period was interposed during which there was to be no disarmament on the part of any nation except Germany. The term was four years. The right hon. Gentleman says it was a subject of discussion. I believe that the United States suggested 18 months; but that does not matter, there was a probationary period, and during that period neither France, Poland, Czechoslovakia or Italy were under any obligation to reduce their armaments by a single gun.
What was their second objection? They said that during that period the supervision and control, or rather the inspection, was unilateral. I was glad to hear the Foreign Secretary's speech on this point because it is the first time it has been said. I want to know whether, during this probationary period, the inspectors of the League of Nations are entitled

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to go not merely to every workshop and every chemical factory in Germany, and without that inspection is of no use, but whether they are equally entitled to go to every arsenal in France, to every chemical factory in France, and to every aeroplane factory in France, in order to find out how many guns, heavy and light, —and also tanks the French and the Poles and the Czechoslovakians have—what they have in their arsenal for the production of new guns, or is the inspection—and this has been my impression gathered from the documents issued by the Royal Institute of International Affairs—during the probationary period to be unilateral. If the Government will declare definitely—and I understood from the Foreign Secretary that it was the case—that during the probationary period the inspectors of the League of Nations will have the same right and the same obligation to go to all the factories and arsenals in France and Italy, and in this country, and find out exactly what there is, as they have of going to Germany, it would be a great advantage. I am not asking this as a criticism because I welcome the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman. It is the first time it has ever been stated.
Sir J. SIMON: I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is the first time it has been stated, but at the same time I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I am not going to interrupt him any more because my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will answer these questions, and I think that the answer to his second question will completely satisfy him.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is a very valuable statement. If, as the right hon. Gentleman says, it has been stated before I must have missed it, because I have taken care to read everything that the right hon. Gentleman has said. At any rate the right hon. Gentleman has made it quite clear; he has answered that question. But I put the question again with regard to the period of probation. Does it mean that during the probationary period no other nation is under any obligation to begin any stage of the disarmament indicated in the document of the Prime Minister? That is very vital. Just see what it means. At the end of that period the Commission of Control
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might say that the Brown Shirts were a military formation and were a breach of the Treaty of Versailles. They may say to Germany, "You have 50,000 or 100,000 rifles more than the Treaty of Versailles permits. "Are the other countries then in the position, although after the probationary period is over the stages are to begin, to say that they are not to begin at all until Germany disbands her Brown Shirts, until there arc no Brown Shirts in the demilitarised area, or that Germany may not have 50:900 or 100,000 rifles more than are permitted by the Treaty of Versailles? If so we are in exactly the position in which we were before under the Treaty of Versailles.
I put this to the Government: Is it necessary to have the probationary period if you have inspection? The Prime Minister's document is a document of disarmament by stages, accompanied by complete supervision and inspection by an independent body of the League of Nations. Take the first year. During that year every arsenal in Germany could be inspected, every factory and every workshop could be inspected, and if at the end of the period it were discovered that Germany had concealed arms and was manufacturing some weapons which she had no right to manufacture, then the other Powers would be in a position to say, "You have broken the Treaty and until you stop that business further stages are stopped. "What is the need for this probationary period? It simply makes it impossible to come to terms which I think could he achieved at this moment.
My own view of the whole position is this: I think the victors have broken the Treaty, that they have riot honoured their signatures. Germany has therefore undoubtedly a case. I wonder whether anyone here has taken the trouble to read the Report of the Control Commission on the arms surrendered or broken up by Germany? I ask the Government to publish that information. We had a conference of the leaders of the various parties in this House, sitting in the Prime Minister's room to consider the whole question of disarmament. It met in the summer of 1931, just before the formation of the National Government. My right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) and myself represented the Liberal Party. The Government was

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represented by the Prime Minister, the Dominions Secretary, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, then Mr. Snowden, and the right hon. Member for Clay Cross (Mr. A. Henderson). It is very remarkable that we came to a unanimous conclusion, that the report of that conference was unanimous. Why? Because we had all the facts put before us. Without the permission of the Prime Minister I am not entitled to give the facts to the House, but I can indicate their character.
We had the facts with regard to the arms surrendered by Germany, and the arms broken up by the Control Commission. The figures were prodigious. There were scores of thousands of guns. That is not a secret; it has been published. It ought to be published in a White Paper. I forget how many rifles there- were, whether it was 5,000,000 or 6,000,000. There were tens and scores of millions of shells. But the most remarkable thing of all was the number of machines for the production of war material that were broken up. Practically all the machinery for the production of war material was broken up under the control of an inter-Allied Commission, and only just enough was left to enable Germany to renew her two or three hundred guns.
We were also told what were the arms of every country in Europe, including our own country—France, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Italy, Russia, and also the United States and Japan. We had for the first time authentic figures given to us, not by Ministers, but by the staffs of the various departments. Why are these figures withheld now? What objection is there to the House of Commons having them? The House is discussing the most vital issue that can come before it; that is the question of peace or war, and it depends upon disarmament. We are discussing it without the slightest knowledge of the essential facts.
I made a statement to the House in 1929 as to the arms of France. I knew something about them. My statement was challenged, but I understated the facts. I stated to the House that France had, with reserves, an Army of 4,000,000, that she could put 1,500,000 men in the field with reserves. But it meant more than that. It meant that with an Army of 1,500,000 men France had the most perfect equipment that any Army has ever had, and an infinitely more powerful
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equipment than Germany had in 1914. She is perfecting it, she is increasing it in power. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) was very angry about Germany, about the way she has not kept her treaties. The reason assigned for the Treaty of Locarno was that it would enable the League of Nations to proceed with disarmament. What has happened? Since Locarno France has increased her guns and her bombing aeroplanes. She has increased her aeroplanes by 50 per cent. Do Members of the House realise how France has increased her submarines and torpedo boats I We have honourably done our best to carry out the obligations we entered into. Can anyone name any other Power that has done it?
France and the United States of America talk more about peace than all of us put together. Let, me give some figures to the House. France and Poland are not the only countries that stand in need of security. Take torpedo destroyers. In 1914 we had 135,000 tons. We are up to 197,000 tons now. France in 1914 had 35,000 tons; she has now 198,000 tons. She has more than we have. The United States of America had 40,000 tons in 1914; she has now 259,000 tons. It is all very well to lecture Europe about disarmament and to charge us with being bellicose. Here is a formidable figure: Japan in 1914 had 4,470 tons; she has to-day 125,000 tons. That is torpedo destroyers. Let us come to submarines. At this very moment I am going through the details of the submarine campaign and writing it up, and I shudder to think how near a thing it was. The submarines came nearer to destroying our power than anything that has ever happened.
In 1914 we had 47,000 tons in submarines; we have now 61,000 tons. France in 1914 had 33,000 tons; she has now 97,000 tons, or 36,000 tons more than we have. The United States in 1914 had 16,000 tons; to-day she has 77,000 tons. Japan had 3,264 tons in 1914, and she has now 77,000 tons. I believe that Italy, too, has more than we have. We have not even reached a one-Power standard in these things. Most of that development has happened since Locarno. Why did not my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham, when he started scolding us, say something about that? Let me give him the budgets of the signatories to the Treaty of Locarno

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which is "the foundation of peace." The spirit of Locarno, in my judgment, is no longer drinkable; it is charged with too much picric acid. France has almost doubled her armaments budget in the course of that period. The United States has increased from 590,000,000 dollars to 709,000,000 dollars. Italy has increased and Japan has increased. That is all since Locarno. How can the House of Commons judge fairly without getting these facts? You have Germany whose gigantic armaments were broken. You have the report of the Inter-Allied Commission. It ought to be published again.
Mr. COCKS: The final report.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is right. The final report. Germany could not manufacture armaments. She might be able to turn out rifles. I do not know if she would be able to turn out machine guns without somebody knowing of it, but at any rate it could only be done with difficulty. But I defy anybody to organise the manufacture of big guns without the fact being known throughout the world. It cannot be done. Her armaments are shattered. She might be able to build up clandestinely armaments that would be formidable in defence as weapons used behind trenches. The rifle, after all, is a terrible weapon if you are behind something. But what is the good of attacking entrenchments with it? You cannot shatter barbed wire with it. They might as well, if they were going to invade France, go with their pockets full of pebbles as go with rifles. They must have big guns, and they cannot manufacture them. And yet we talk about a period of probation.
Let us have the real facts. President Hoover said there were 30,000,000 armed men in the world to-day or 10,000,000 more than before the War. All I know is that the nations that surround Germany have, between them, 7,000,000 of trained men and thousands of heavy guns. Germany has not one heavy gun and that is admitted to-day by both France and Belgium. Yet we say, let us have a period of probation. Germany has said—she said it before leaving the League of Nations and she has said it since: "We stand by the British Draft Convention. "Why not get back to it? Is it worth while imperilling the peace of Europe after an acceptance of that kind,
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which is the most valuable thing that has happened for years and years when a practical proposal has been made by the British Government and all the nations accept it? Then we suddenly say: "We must have a period of probation for one party and that, the party which has disarmed." I beg the Government to go back to and to stand by the position which they held a few weeks ago.
It is no use saying that there has been a change in the conditions in Germany. Herr Hitler and his Nazis and Brown Shirts came into power in January with all their policy. They talked about rearmament and they paraded the streets with their Brown Shirts. The Prime Minister proposed his plan in March, two months later. There has been no change of any sort in the conditions since the right hon. Gentleman proposed his plan. Italy was willing to do without the period of probation. The United States only accepted it in order to propitiate France but they were quite willing to go without the period of probation. If Great Britain had taken the same line firmly and said "No; we put this plan forward after Herr Hitler became dictator of Germany and knew all the facts and therefore we mean to stand by it, "France would not have stood out. I again ask for information, first of all about the period of probation and, secondly, I ask will the Government in their White Paper give us the arms of Germany that were broken up on surrender? There cannot be any harm in doing that because it has been published already. Thirdly, will they tell us what their estimate is of the armaments of other nations? Finally, I beg them once more to go back to the position which they took up in March, to stand by their proposal and to put it through. Then and then only will there be peace in Europe.
7.50 p.m.
Mr. AMERY: I do not propose to answer the case put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) because, however eloquently he has pleaded the special point of view of Germany, I doubt whether he has in any way affected the judgment of the House after the speeches which we have already heard. In any case, I have no desire to continue

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this "Who killed Cock Robin? "discussion. I would rather ask the House seriously to answer the question whether the time has not come for a reconsideration of the whole of our policy in connection with Disarmament, that policy which, so far, however well-intentioned, has failed to lead anywhere and which I cannot see is going to lead anywhere; and whether we had not better, under these conditions, make up our minds to change our policy and to adopt a course more consonant with our security, with our own interests and I believe, incidentally, with the peace and security of the world.
The Foreign Secretary made an admirably lucid and clear defence of the actual course of British policy in connection with this matter. But the better the defence, the worse becomes the case for a policy which has so obviously failed. I entirely agree with him that not only under this Government but under previous Governments
"our devotion to and our efforts for the cause of Disarmament have been constant and sincere ".
I admit that no other country has ever done so much by precept or by practice, by exhortation or by example, to try to make a success of the Disarmament Conference. It has failed, as it was bound to fail. Failure was inevitable owing to the circumstances of the case and the temper of the nations concerned. We have listened to a powerful indictment of Germany's policy in this matter by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain). We have listened to a powerful indictment of everybody else by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. Those very speeches show how impossible it was to get both sides together. It was never possible, in my belief, to frame a Disarmament Convention that you could reasonably have asked France to accept and to which Germany would have agreed.
What is the position of Germany? Germany wants to re-arm. Germany means to re-arm. Germany is going to re-arm, and nobody is going to stop her. That is the fact, and what hope can anyone at the bottom of his heart entertain of the future of this Convention? The speech of the Foreign Secretary shed no light on the question: How are you going to find a new Convention that will be acceptable to Germany after what has
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happened? Is France going to accept immediate, unconditional disarmament, relying on a system of inspection of the value of which she knows nothing? How far do you think Germany, which recently arrested Mr. Banter for reporting an ordinary public parade, is going to facilitate the inquiries of a disarmament commission? Indeed, how can you ask the ex-Allies and the other nations who were at Geneva recently, and who agreed to certain terms, to whittle down those terms any further in face of Germany's attitude? How, after a triumphant verdict next Saturday, do you think Chancellor Hitler is going to regard these proposals? Things being what they are, why should we any longer deceive ourselves? The Disarmament Convention is dead and no one is going to be able to galvanise it into life. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham did indeed suggest that it should have a dignified and suitable funeral; that the other Powers should agree upon all the details of a Convention and go through the ceremony of presenting it to Germany in order that she might refuse it. That might be more decent than leaving the corpse to be thrown on one side. But it is not going to resuscitate the Disarmament. Conference.
That being so, had we not better ask ourselves: Is there not an alternative policy more worthy of following than one which is leading to nothing but irritation and failure? I believe there is. I believe that if only we would stop this wild-goose chase after mechanical, reach-me-down schemes of world disarmament and peace, and leave Europe to settle her own affairs, the profound desire of the peoples of Europe for peace, the economic forces which are bringing them together, will themselves, through the ordinary flexible adjustments of international intercourse, bring about a much more lasting and real solution.
Europe, I believe, is already beginning to find herself. The elements of a new crystallisation on the Continent are showing themselves, not at Geneva but in the different capitals of the various Powers. Nothing has been more remarkable in recent European history, nothing has been more remarkable since the War, than the recent constitutional pact by which the three Powers of the Little Entente have formed themselves into a new political unit

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with a single council to conduct their affairs. Some centuries ago three little cantons in Switzerland met together and formed a league out of which grew the Swiss Confederation. I believe that this union of the Little Entente may mean much more to the future peace and stability of Europe than anything that has been done at Geneva. Their example has been followed in the last few weeks by Turkey and Greece. There is to-day a continuous going to and fro in Central and South-Eastern Europe and a movement in the direction of bringing the whole of its countries into a single economic combination. That may well, favoured as it is to-day by both France and Italy, lead to something much more real, solid, and enduring than the schemes which have been hatched at Geneva.
Nobody at this moment has contributed so much to this re-grouping and consolidation of Europe las Germany herself, by her aggressive methods and her aggressive language. So long as she maintains that aggressive attitude, so long will she strengthen the unity of the rest of Europe, and, I quite agree with the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, so long will her power to do mischief amount to very little, in face of the overwhelming margin of strength which is enjoyed by the Powers which are concerned in the preservation of the status quo in Europe. Let her re-arm. As long as the other Powers keep together, they will not be forced into any race for re-armament. The answer to a threat is not always more expenditure on armaments, but in making other friends and consolidating the position. In the end, if Germany once realises that no re-armament on her part can ever put her into a position in which she can reverse the general settlement of Versailles by force, the recognition of that fact, the pressure of economic forces, and the need of markets, may even bring her in the long run into the European consolidation.
The best help that we can give is to encourage that consolidation, and at any rate not to interfere with its evolution. If we are out to help, let us make the most practical contribution we, can, land that will be to waive our claims under the most-favoured-nation Clause, which at present prevent the nations of Europe
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which wish to co-operate with each other from giving each other preferences such las the nations of the Empire have given to each other at Ottawa. In any case, let us stop nagging and pestering France and every other European nation into disarmament schemes in which they do not believe, and as the price of which they are bound to ask us for guarantees of support which will only entangle us ever further in the European situation.
I shall be told that I am advocating a policy of isolation. Isolation is a relative term. Clearly we cannot stand alone. But, after all, what matters is the nations to whom we are going to stand close. In the first place, we have got to stand close to our own Dominions. The unity of the Empire is infinitely more important than any association with any other Power. Secondly, it is vital to us to stand close to the United States of Amercia, and akin to us in race and tradition and bordering us along 4,000 miles of an open frontier. My strongest objection to a policy of continuous meddling in Europe is that it isolates us from the Dominions. The more our policy commits us to intervention in European affairs, to the probability or even the possibility of another European war, the more determinedly will the Dominions avoid sharing our responsibilities and stand aloof from any attempt at a closer and more effective organisation of the Empire for a common policy. I believe that the same is in large measure true of the United States. The more the United States identify us in their minds with the affairs of what they regard as a quarrelsome and irrational continent, the more will they keep aloof from us. The key to Anglo-American co-operation lies in teaching the Americans to dissociate us in their minds from the affairs of Europe and to associate us more closely with the affairs of the Dominions, whose policy and mentality they understand and appreciate.
I know perfectly well the stock arguments that are always advanced against such a policy. They were hinted at by the Foreign Secretary in his speech. We are told that the aeroplane has so diminished the advantages of our insular position, has brought us so near to Europe, that willy-nilly we must continually go on intervening in European affairs. I cannot for the life of me see

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the force of that argument. If the air forces of Europe are so formidable, I should have thought. that that was a reason for avoiding embroilment in European affairs. Canada, with 4,000 miles of open frontier, is even more vulnerable to American aeroplanes. Does she draw the inference that she ought therefore continuously to intervene in the internal affairs of the United States? Of course not. But I will add this: if the aeroplane has brought us nearer to Europe, has it not also brought us much nearer to the rest of the British Empire? Has not the whole possibility of Imperial co-operation been immensely enhanced when men like Kingsford-Smith and Ulm have shown that it is possible to fly to Australia in a week? The aeroplane is not the only invention which has modified and transformed the political geography of the Empire. To-day the statesmen of the Empire can have direct personal communication at any moment over the wireless. Science in this respect has obliterated and annihilated the vast spaces that once separated us. But science has not obliterated the barriers that are interposed by differences of speech and of mentality. Melbourne and Ottawa have been brought next door to us. Paris and Berlin are still as far away as ever.
We can never, of course, wholly disinterest ourselves in the affairs of Europe so close to us. The control of the coast of the Channel opposite our shores by a Tingle aggressive, dominant Power is a danger against which, League of Nations or no League of Nations, Locarno Treaty or no Locarno Treaty, we might, in accordance with our historical tradition and necessity, at all times have to take measures, in the future as in the past. From that point of view, I believe that our people, and indeed the Empire, might be well prepared to endorse the continuance of our guarantee of Belgium, and, indeed, also the Locarno Treaty, in so far as that Treaty deals with the limited and, I believe, remote contingency of direct aggression by a dominant, aggressive Power against one of our neighbours across the Channel.
To my mind, the real danger to our peace is not the Locarno Treaty, which —I entirely agree with the Secretary of State and with what the Under-Secretary
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of State said recently in a very able speech—in practice always leaves us free to make up our own minds when the time comes. The danger lies in a course of policy which, in the professed interests of a system of collective peace, is calculated continually to involve us in moral responsibilities from which we cannot escape, and to drag us into quarrels in which we have no real interest, while at the same time tending all the time to deprive us of the control of our own defence. I may be told that the policy I advocate will involve us in unlimited rearmament. I entirely dispute that. The armaments which we need for our security —and I admit that they are far from adequate at this moment—as an Empire, on sea, on land, and in the air, will in the main be governed by factors which lie far away from the European situation. If they are sufficient for those wider needs of Empire, I think they will be sufficient to give us reasonable defence against any unprovoked, sudden attack by any European Power, and indeed I can hardly imagine such an attack taking place without finding others whose intervention would promptly follow. But if they are insufficient for those wider purposes of Empire, then I doubt whether any scheme hatched at Geneva is going to help us on the Khyber Pass or keep secure for our commerce the freedom of the China Seas.
I have felt bound to use words, possibly not consonant with the general trend of the speeches that have been delivered this afternoon, which may call for rebuke from those virtuous and admirable persons who continue to delude themselves with the idea that you can bring all the forces and passions which animate national life, not into some new group of natural development, but into some mechanical scheme. I know that anybody who takes the view that I do, who is prepared to say what he believes on the situation, is regarded as a cynic, a reactionary, and an immoral person. But I cannot help thinking of the story of the Emperor's robes, in Hans Andersen's fairy tales, which some of us may have read in our youth; of the charlatan tailor who came to court and said that he could produce the most beautiful clothes in the world, but that they had this rare quality, that they were only visible to those whose conduct had been above reproach and

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whose conscience was clear. In consequence nobody, either at court or in the crowds in the streets, dared say a word when the Emperor paraded the streets of his capital in his underclothes, until finally a child ventured to say, "Why is not the Emperor wearing any clothes" For a good many years now it has been considered immoral to venture to doubt the reality and efficacy of these mechanical policies. I do doubt them, and I do hope that the House of Commons will face this issue, will get away from these ready-made schemes, and will see how far the peace of the world can be helped by such great groups as those of our own British nations and by encouraging other groups of nations to constitute themselves.
I believe that the decisive issue in politics in the next few years is going to be between those who believe in a policy of national and Imperial strength, development, and consolidation, and those who still hanker after a policy of internationalism, both in economics and in politics. It is on that issue that the future is going to be decided, and while I confess that we have not had a very definite lead as yet from the Government on this matter, it is on that issue, above all others, that sooner or later this House of Commons and the nation will want to know where they stand. We have to stand on one side or the other. We may not wish to renew party strife in any sense, but if the affairs of this country are to be successfully administered, they must be administered on a definite principle and by people who unitedly believe in that principle.
8.15 p.m.
Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: This afternoon we have heard speeches from many eminent personages who have a reputation in this country and a reputation in Europe which should not be forgotten when they speak in this House or outside. I was concerned to find that we have wandered away from the subject of Disarmament into all kinds of conflicts and dangers of the European situation, and of foreign policy, quite apart from the policy of Disarmament. As representing a party which is a party of peace, a party known throughout Europe as a party pledged to international co-operation, I am very anxious that any word of mine shall not militate in the slightest
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against the prospects of improved international relations at the present time. Never before in the history of Europe has it been more necessary that caution should be used in public utterances, and I deplore the fact that to-day men whose experience ought to have led them to speak with much greater caution have allowed their sympathy with this country or another to colour their views and the expression of those views. The speeches made this afternoon will be printed and published in other countries in Europe in justification of their purely nationalistic policies, and that will aggravate the situation.
Everybody knows that the situation is bad enough. Never before have we known so much inflammable material; never have we known such pent up possibilities of an outbreak of war; never before have we known such confusion in the minds of nations and of people regarding the outcome of possible hostilities. This danger is not a danger to one country. It should never be looked upon as a danger to one country or another. It is a danger to all, a common danger to mankind. In the last War, if I remember rightly, every European nation with the exception of six was involved. I doubt whether it would be possible for six European nations to keep out of a conflict which occurred now. It would really mean a world war if the worst fore bodings of this afternoon's Debate materialised. I feel some confidence that later words spoken from this side of the House and, I hope, from that side too, will do something to redress the tone and tendency of to-day's Debate, that the summing-up of the Debate will go forth as an indication that Great Britain is really concerned about the world situation and about the perils of the partial failure—the temporary failure, we hope—of disarmament, and that we shall send forth a solid expression of our belief in the imperative necessity of a disarmament agreement Which will make the world safe for all for some time to come.
This question of disarmament is based mainly upon the Conference which has been taking place in Geneva for some time, and on this side of the House we do not conceal our disappointment with the progress made there. I do not wish to attack the Government or to hold them or its representatives solely responsible. We know the situation is

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difficult. There are national antagonisms and susceptibilities that find their expression in Geneva every day. There is great reluctance on the part of those who meet there to show willingness to disarm, and there is very great difficulty there because confidence has been lost. Nobody's word is believed these days. There has been so much manoeuvring for position and advantage on the part of one country and another that the nations are very reluctant to accept anything said on behalf of any Government at Geneva. I think that we must come back somehow or other to the Geneva Conference with a determination to accept each other's utterances at their face value. We must go there somehow or other to convince those sitting with us that we are in earnest about this problem. Everybory looks at this problem from his own point of view. Everybody's view is coloured by his own national or imperial interests, and it has been impossible thus far to get anybody to believe that the delegates at Geneva are keen upon disarmament all round.
It has been said this afternoon that we on this side of the House at one time accepted the Prime Minister's plan. We accepted that plan only in part, as was expressed from this side of the House about eight or nine months ago. A few of us, speaking in a debate on foreign affairs, said that we thought that it would be an advantage as a basis of negotiation to have figures inserted to represent the armed forces of each of the countries of Europe and each of the countries represented at Geneva. I still believe that. If disarmament is to come universally, if it is to come by gradual steps, the standard and the basis must be fixed for each country at the beginning; but that must only be adopted as a level from which each country should work downwards. The real value of the British Government's plan, as I see it, is that there is this uniform standard, but if we content ourselves with the British Government's plan with its figures for land forces and other forces for each country laid down as a permanent basis, then we really are deluding ourselves and making it impossible for the future permanent agreement at which we hope to arrive by the further negotiations in Geneva.
A good deal has been said about Germany's reason for breaking up this Conference, and some measure of blame has
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been apportioned to Germany. Indeed, doubt has been expressed whether she entered the Conference at any time with the desire to share in a general agreement. I do not think that it will profit us to inquire whether Germany has a bona fide interest in this Conference, but she has gone out of the Conference and we should not allow the absence of one discontented party in Europe to destroy the possibility of the agreement which might be arrived at if every other party entered the Conference in good faith. Germany is passing through a period of very great difficulty. I have not the slightest sympathy, no one on this side of the House has the slightest sympathy, with the present Government in Germany. The people in Germany with whom we have political sympathies are in concentration camps. If they are outside the camps they may be in the streets and in their offices, but they are dumb, their voices are not heard, their influence is not felt in the common life of Germany. We have no means of establishing contact with the people who hold similar views to ours, and of ascertaining how far they are prepared to submit to the general policy of the Government which is responsible for their incarceration, or for the complete system of censoring which prevents the German people from knowing what takes place in the outside world, and prevents us knowing what takes place inside Germany.
The German Government is the complete repudiation of democracy. It has for the moment broken with the world comity of nations. It has come to a kind of epidemic of nationalism which has thoroughly poisoned the German national system. She is living in a condition of high temperature which has become a great danger to her and to us. That condition of things in Germany is causing grave apprehension in neighbouring countries—countries like Denmark, for example, where Disarmament has been tried to a greater extent than any other country in the world. Denmark did adopt a system of almost complete disarmament, serving as an example to every other country, but the Danish people feel the influence of this aggressive spirit of nationalism coming across their frontiers, and grave apprehension exists in Denmark on that account.
We must have regard to the susceptibilities of other countries border-

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ing on Germany, and while we do not wish to throw stones or to make it difficult for the German people to come back to this Conference, we in this House of Commons should try to understand why the unwillingness of Germany to remain in the League must cause apprehension to countries immediately around her, into which the German could "step over." Even without arms, even without heavy guns and aeroplanes, they could cross the frontier and invade those countries. That forces these neighbouring countries to hold the arms mentioned in the Debate. For example, there is Poland, a country which for hundreds of years was denied its freedom, and was condemned to a sense of national inferiority because it had lost its nationhood. It now has national independence, after hundreds of years of subjection to Germany, Russia and Austria. The Poles are a people smaller in numbers than the German people, and there is a country which, even without waiting for Germany to re-arm, stands in immediate fear of an attack by Germany and of an invasion which would take from her the freedom which she values so much. There is also Czechoslovakia. Those countries stand in fear of Germany, and we should not be oblivious of their position. While we speak to Germany to-day in terms of a generous and broad-minded appeal to her to come back to the conference at Geneva, we should not ignore the dangers.
It is not a question of the danger in which we ourselves stand, and perhaps not a question of the danger in which France stands, but of the danger to Germany's weaker neighbours because of the possibilities arising from the fact that there is living next door to them a nation with a population of 68,000,000 people. Those countries, some almost completely disarmed or unarmed, are living next door to Germany with that country in the mood in which Germany finds herself at present. With Germany in that mood our motive should be to gain time. Whether disarmament to the extent which we desire can be achieved this year or next year, it is indispensable to gain a year or two or five years' time. I think it is vital that we should gain time. When the question of a probationary period was being discussed, and taunts and gibes were thrown across the Floor of the
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House, I felt in sympathy with those who were willing to consider a short period of probation. I do not say the probationary period should be five or 10 years, but some short period of probation is necessary. We cannot get the French or Polish people to disarm to-morrow. They want to know first how far the German nationalist movement is prepared to accommodate itself to a world in which peace is the rule and in which disarmament is to be the order of the day.
Another point which I think is vitally necessary is to have some kind of supervision. We shall not be able to hold the smaller countries of Europe in peace if rumours spread abroad—and one knows how fast rumour flies—without a very close and well-organised system of super. vision. All kinds of rumours might get around the world. Germany might 'be wrongly accused of arming when she was not, and the position would be aggravated by the absence of a system of supervision which would enable the world to know exactly what Germany was doing and what France was doing in regard to armaments, and what even the smaller countries were doing. This system of supervision is a vital necessity while we are gaining this breathing space of a year, or two or three years, during which the world can settle down and we can regain confidence. While we are waiting for that it is vitally necessary to have a system of supervision under the League of Nations. Even though all the countries of the world were not prepared to accept such a supervision, I think the system should be offered. The League of Nations and the Disarmament Conference should make it a definite condition. It should not be supervision for Germany alone, hut supervision in all countries, with regular reports to the Bureau of the Disarmament Conference, in order that everybody might know what was being done. In that way we should discount possible alarmist rumours which might spread from one country to another.
After the question of the probationary period, with supervision, comes the question of the fixing of armaments. We on this side have never committed ourselves, and never shall commit ourselves, to any fixed figures—to allowing Britain to have so many guns of given dimensions, so many battalions or army corps, so many cavalry regiments, so many battleships, so many cruisers. We cannot imagine

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that such a balancing of figures will serve the world for ever and maintain peace. On behalf of the party I entirely dissociate it from that conception. It might be a useful, and perhaps an essential preliminary to the wider agreements which would end in total disarmament, but to conceive of a constant balancing of the armed forces of the world is to imagine a vain thing, and we could not give our support to any such proposals. We are very anxious, while giving expression to what is in our minds, to give no occasion, which we might regret later, for other feelings to be created. What is needed at the present time is the utmost coolness, the utmost calmness and the utmost impartiality. The world is in very great danger indeed.
We are drifting back into the stage of mutual antagonism which has been recalled here to-day by men who were themselves international leaders during the period of the Great War and in the postwar period. But it is no use going back to those things. It would not serve the House or the country to go back to the Treaty of Versailles and to say, "This should have been done then, "or to say that the conditions in that Treaty have been neglected or ignored and that the Treaty of Versailles should have been carried out. We say quite plainly that in our view the Treaty of Versailles was in itself an improper instrument for settling European affairs. It is no use blaming countries for not carrying out the Treaty. The Treaty of Versailles was an unjust instrument, and the effects of that Treaty are still with us. In the economic sphere we have found the Treaty causing grave injustice to nations. Germany herself suffers gravely from the Treaty of Versailles, but it is no use invoking that treaty in favour of Germany. It is no use harking back.
Again, it is no use analysing the Treaty of Locarno, and trying to decide whether certain things in it ought to have been left out, or whether certain dangers exist because of the terms of that Treaty. What we have to face is the present situation. It is bad enough in all conscience. It is a situation frauglht with menace to the whole world, one of danger from the military standpoint and of hopelessness from an economic standpoint.
This question of Disarmament I believe to be vital to the maintenance of peace in Europe, but do not let us imagine that
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any settlement of the question of arms alone is going to maintain peace in Europe. I hope that the Foreign Office is not blind to the economic conditions and to the disabilities from which Germany and other European countries suffer. There is immense genuine poverty all over Europe. Millions of people are driven to desperation. Despair rules over Europe at the present time. Poverty is increasing day by day. Hungry and desperate men will swallow any nostrum or gospel prescribed to them by men equally desperate who occupy high office in various countries. We must try to come back from that condition of intoxication, and to face our problems as well as we can, not forgetting the economic issues which lie underneath, but insisting —I hope that everyone present in this House who is responsible for public opinion outside will also insist—that this country shall extend its hand and try to draw within its sphere of influence all those in the world who are prepared to agree not to re-arm but to disarm as rapidly as possible and to set up in Europe and in the world, not States rivalling each other in force and in power, but the conditions under which the nations of Europe and the world can co-operate for their mutual benefit.
8.37 p.m.
Sir REGINALD BANKS: I find myself in agreement with much that the last speaker has said. I think that he, like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), brought us into an invigorating atmosphere of reality and out of that realm of slogans and catch-phrases that have done more to produce the mischievous situation in which we find ourselves to-day than anything else in the world. Of course, the hon. Gentleman is right. It is a change of heart and an altered mentality—what our ancestors in their curious way used to call the grace of God—that is really going to make the difference. While I am entirely in agreement with him and with the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the view that to disarm is helpful, it is not in itself a solution. If it were, there would never have been any wars in the world. People split one another's skulls with flint axes before the aeroplane was invented, and they will fight with their naked hands after aeroplanes and big guns are abolished, unless

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there is a change of heart. As for getting rid of those more expensive and formidable weapons of war, a course in which some people affect to find a remedy, that is only to substitute for an expensive kind of belligerence what a friend of mine, in a phrase I like very much, called a Woolworth war, but not the less deadly for that.
It was the realism of the hon. Gentleman's speech that I liked. Here is another thing that is true. Germany has made up her mind, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook has said, that if other people will not disarm promptly she is going to re-arm, and I agree with him in saying that nothing that we can do or say is likely to stop her in her present mood from pursuing that resolution. One falsehood, I hope, has been finally and completely repudiated this afternoon. I do not see how any reasonable man, to whatever party he belongs, having heard the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, can go on being unscrupulous enough to say in public or in private that this Government has war plans or is indulging in war propaganda. Believe me, I get resolutions from the most pious and estimable people in my constituency begging me to do what I can in this House to oppose the war plans of the present Government. Unless the Lord has deprived them of reason or they are saying that which they know to be untrue, I do hope that they will read what the Foreign Secretary said this afternoon. They are bound to agree that the facts are beyond dispute. It does not matter in what quarter of this House we sit; we are all striving for peace and none of us have any war plans.
At the same time, some of us are far from believing in those nostrums to which we have had to pay a simulated respect for so many years. I think that it is worth while considering—I go no further than that—whether we ought not to speak a little more bluntly about the League of Nations. That is a holy thing. We have all got to genuflex and cross ourselves when that sacred word is mentioned in this Chamber, and, apparently, in the Press; but outside this Chamber, in even more frequented apartments, in the country, wherever I go, I can find none so poor as to do it reverence.
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They all think that whatever it may have been in its younger days it is becoming senile and decrepit, if not in articulo mortis in 1933. Unless that League of Nations can be revived in same form or other and made a real thing, we had better speak the truth about it and say that most of us consider that it is just a great and expensive institution for disseminating international quarrels. None of the nations do any serious business in the council chamber. Open diplomacy? It is a farce and a superstitution. It is dune over a whisky and soda, or over a cup of tea, or on the golf links. It is as secret and private at Geneva as ever it was in the old and wicked days of secret diplomacy.
Again, how shall we really call it a "league of nations," when Germany and Russia are outside it and Japan has left it, when the United States that begot it has repudiated its own paternity and when Latin South America, and many other nations, though they are pleased to be members of a reputable club, cannot be found to pay their own subscriptions year by year? I do not see why this country should be responsible for paying most of the bill, and be condemned to raise its hat in superstitious veneration to something that in the future had better be judged on its merits and on its merits alone. Here is a set of circumstances, in which we are—I go no further than this, as I say—entitled to consider our position in international affairs de novo. I do not like shams, and that is why I do not like the way in which the Locarno Treaty is defended. Legally there can be no question about the exposition of the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary. Very few people will be found to cavil at him when he expounds the law. What does it come to He says: "Do not be worried. Do not be anxious. There is no conceivable set of circumstances that I can think of in which you will not be entitled to say, if you want to, We shall do exactly what we like'."
He went through them all. I am not going over them again, but there were three sets of circumstances in which the judgment of the Council was necessary, and, since it cannot be unanimous without our assent, our assent is necessary. What does it mean? If we like to say, "We do not care a rap about this; we

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are not going to do anything about it," nobody can complain. In the fourth set of circumstances, we were the sole judge of what we should do and what we should not do. In a word, Germany can fly at the throat of France, or France can fly at the throat of Germany, or there can be any number of imbroglios all through Europe, and we can say, although we have solemnly signed the Locarno Treaty and nothing in the world would make us so dishonourable as to repudiate our signature, "Here is the letter of the text, and here is Article this and Article that, and we are not legally bound to do anything at all unless we want to. "That is the legal interpretation, and it is correct. If that is all the Locarno Treaties are worth, they are not worth a rap to any country in the world, and I cannot see why there was all the enthusiasm for them when they were originally signed, or why they were so important. Germany was to come into the League of Nations and have a permanent seat on the Council, on the fundamental principle that Great Britain, with all the might, majesty, power and dominion of our Empire, and all the King's horses and all the King's men, was going to guarantee these frontiers for the future.
Whatever the legal interpretation of these Clauses may be, the world will hold us to a moral interpretation of them if ever the difficulty arises, and our moral responsibility was conditioned upon one circumstance: these treaties were not to be valid unless Germany came into the League of Nations and obtained a seat on the Council. If Germany did not come in, if she did not get a seat on the Council, then the Locarno Treaties fell to the ground. If her entry into the League was a condition precedent and a sine qua non, surely that does not mean that she should be there to-day and gone to-morrow. It must be a condition that she should not only go into the League of Nations, but remain in the League of Nations. Whatever the Law Officers of the Crown may choose to say about it, Europe will say the consideration has failed. I can remember that, in the Debate on the ratification of the Treaty, complaint, and bitter complaint, was made by the Foreign Secretary himself that we had been temerarious enough to allow Poland to come in, and, therefore, the composition of the Council of the League of Nations, that final tribunal of
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arbitration, was altered. Did not everyone know that we only signed this treaty on the basis that Germany should come in, and that the Council of the League of Nations should be exactly as it was, plus the membership of Germany? Germany has gone, Japan has gone since then, and the whole tribunal is altered. Is it not at least time that we reconsidered our position?
"Isolation" is another of these catch- fords. If anybody is rash enough to say: "I would rather not like my country to be tied up by I do not know how many conventions and security pacts and guarantees; I would rather like to feel that, if there is another fight in this European saloon bar, I can take whatever attitude seems to me to suit myself and my people best when the time comes, "that is not necessarily isolation, is it? Surely, you are not isolated because you refuse to say that, if there is a row, you are in all circumstances going to back the man in the brown ulster as against the man with the trilby hat? I do not know how many obligations we have; nobody does. It would have been interesting to hear the Foreign Secretary rehearse them this afternoon. But, really, one has got tired of reading about them, and about the golden pens, and green baize, and the outbursts of popular panegyrics when there has been a new pact, a new renunciation of war, a new Covenant in the Treaty. Under how many obligations are we here? The old motto that was once written on a Spanish sword was a good one:
"Do not draw me without reason; do not sheath me without honour."
If there is one thing that every man in this world knows, it is that England is never going to start an aggressive war against anybody, but I should like to feel that I could go down to my constituents and say to them: "So long as I am the Member for Swindon there is not one man from the Great Western Railway Works that is going across to endure what we had to endure because European countries are flying at, one another's throats in a quarrel with which we have no concern. "I should like to feel that, if we had to go, I could appeal to them, unfettered and unbound, to fight for justice, and for nothing else in this world will this country ever fight. That being so, the sooner we revise our position and let the world know that if, after all these

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years of pleading, after all these years of good example, after all these years of good European citizenship, they will not have a change of heart, if they will not come to our view and if they will not play the game as England has done, England will stand for herself and the interests of her Empire, unfettered and unbound, until the occasion arises, the better it will be.
8.51 p.m.
Mr. HANNON: The House will have listened with the greatest respect to the eloquent discourse we have just had from my hon. and learned Friend, but, while I have very great sympathy with most of the proposals that he submitted, I hope it will not go forth from this House in any circumstances that an obligation honourably undertaken at a time of great crisis will ever be repudiated by the people of this country or of Scotland. My reason for rising to offer a, few observations to the House is because of the speech made this afternoon by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. Unfortunately, owing to the fact that I was engaged, during part of the time he was speaking, with a deputation outside the Chamber, I did not hear what he said, but I am informed that he made a charge against the armament firms of this country as being contributory factors to the maintenance of the present unrest in Europe; and I believe he said that one particular armament firm, namely, the Birmingham Small Arms Company, had made a substantial profit during its last financial year because it was engaged in the production of armaments.
Mr. LANSBURY: I never said anything of the kind. I said its shares had gone up.
Mr. HANNON: Then I want to repudiate the inference, which might follow from my right hon. Friend's statement, that the shares had gone up because this firm was engaged in the production of armaments. There is not a shred of foundation for any suggestion of that kind. The Birmingham Small Arms Company, as the right hon. Gentleman would have seen if he had taken the trouble to read the reports in the newspapers, is a holding company of a, large combine or group of several companies engaged in the production of motor cars,
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of motor bicycles, of bicycles, of steel, and of machine tools; and the profits which the Birmingham Small Arms Company has to its credit during its last operative year in business are derived entirely from the particular sources which I have just mentioned, and only in an infinitesimal degree from the present production of arms of any sort or description. The profits made from the arms section—the production of rifles and shotguns—of the Birmingham Small Arms Company, and I have personal knowledge of what the company is doing, represent a mere fraction of the operations of the company as a whole, and I want to say, if the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for doing so, in order to make the situation perfectly clear, that within my knowledge there is not a single firm associated with the production of rifles, guns or machine guns in this country today engaged in the execution of a single order which could be interpreted as the preparation of organisation for the purposes of war.
Mr. LANSBURY: It is a pity the hon. Member was not here when I made the statement. I was contradicted and I was told at first that the Birmingham small Arms Company did not manufacture any war material at all. I knew that was not true, and I am glad that the hon. Member confirms me. As to what proportion of the increased productivity which has enabled its shares to go up is due to the manufacture of machine or other guns I am not in a position to say, but it is a curious fact that with the increased export of arms, which no one denies, the shares are going up.
Mr. HANNON: I tried to make the right hon. Gentleman understand that in the business of the Birmingham Small Arms Company the part played by the production of anything that can be described as arms is the merest fraction of the whole of its productivity. The real earning capacity of the company is derived from motor cars, motor bicycles, bicycles and high speed steel. I have the greatest respect for the right hon. Gentleman, and I know he would be no party to the spreading of a statement which was not absolutely justified by the fact, and I think it is a great pity that he should mislead the House in making the suggestion that firms engaged in the ordinary process of industrial

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organisation are engaged in the production of weapons for the purpose of war. There is not a single armament firm in the country which can be described as executing a single order for the preparation of any kind of weapons for the purpose of prosecuting war. I hope the House will be convinced that that is the actual fact, and the right hon. Gentleman has no right to make the suggestion he did.
8.58 p.m.
Mr. MANDER: The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Swindon (Sir R. Banks) made an attack on the League of Nations and said it was ineffective. That is obvious to all of us, but one has to realise that the League of Nations is merely a piece of machinery and only functions as those Ministers make it function who are sent there by different Governments, and, if, as we know, it has recently been going badly, the best thing to do is for each country to send better and more effective Ministers and better and more effective policies to make it work more successfully in the future than it has done in the past. The only alternative to the collective international work of the world through the League of Nations or some organisation of that kind is the same kind of thing that happened before the War. There is no effective alternative to some machinery of that kind.
In this Debate it seems to me that there is not much purpose served in laying blame on any body or any nation for what has happened in the past. We can blame ourselves. We Can blame the Allies generally for not having carried out their promises. We can blame the present Government to some extent for their policy in respect of disarmament, not recently but 18 or 12 months ago. I think their action over Manchuria was an absolutely fatal blunder and a fatal precedent for what has been happening recently. I believe Chancellor Hitler has done exactly what the Japanese did. They used force and got away with it and no one did anything to them. Hitler thinks, "The Japs got away with it, why should not I, too, leave the Conference and re-arm? No one will do anything to us. "The question that we have to devote our minds to is what is going to be done about it. At the beginning of the Disarmament Conference, if the
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British Government had come forward resolutely and firmly, as they did 12 months later, with a definite draft programme, at any time during the first three months, when a democratic regime existed in Germany, you could have obtained a satisfactory disarmament convention without the difficulties which have now arisen.
When the Foreign Secretary claims that all along the British Government have acted wisely and well, I think he claims too much. But in the last few months I believe the British Government have firmly, honestly and sincerely worked as hard as they could to get agreement between all the nations of the world for an effective convention. I do not think that any other action that they could have taken would have produced a different result. I agree wholeheartedly with the admirable speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain). I believe Germany had no intention of agreeing to any effective disarmament convention. They do not want inspection. Above all things they want to avoid that, because they know well that they are re-arming, and have done so to a considerable extent already. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) asks for the publication of the report of the Inter-Allied Commission, I hope that will be published, because we have been told recently, in letters to the "Times" by Professor Morgan, who was a member, that the Commission never reported that Germany had carried out their obligation to disarm. I hope we shall have all the facts before us. By all means let them be published.
I believe the German Government had made up their mind to re-arm and that the task that lies before us is to make up our minds how that is going to be prevented, because it would be a first class disaster to the whole world and would lead to the certainty of another war worse than the last. There is a tendency—we have heard something of it to-day—to regret the situation, to say it is deplorable that Germany is tending to re-arm or is re-arming, to say it is a great pity but we cannot do anything about it and that we must, therefore, build up huge armaments. The Leader of the Opposition in his broadcast speech

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the other day, which I did not think very helpful, used these words:
"We will not support an increase of armaments, but we shall also refuse to support our own or any other Government in any endeavour to apply penalties or sanctions against Germany."
Is not that a direct invitation to the German Government to go on with the good work of re-armament and, so far as the Labour party is concerned, no one will lay a finger upon them? If it means anything, it means that, and it seems singularly unhelpful. We have either to deal with the situation now, when it can_ easily be dealt with, or it will have to be dealt with in 10 years' time at the cost of an enormous sacrifice of human blood once more. The question is what can we do, what is the effective policy to pursue? I should like to support the policy which I understand to be that of the Government, that they shall press on in every way they can with disarmament conversations and conventions, that they should go further than they have recently. I suggest that they should agree now to abolish at the end of the disarmament period all those weapons that were forbidden to Germany in the Treaty of Versailles and not only certain selected ones because, if that is not done, it means that at the end of the disarmament period, eight years as suggested, Germany would be in a position to claim re-armament according to the Government's plan. She would have the right then to build a certain number of tanks and large mobile guns, and certain other things as well. We should be wise in meting out to ourselves the same measure that was then meted out to Germany.
With regard to the probation period, I think that it is only reasonable, in view of the sort of gang who are in power in Germany at the present time, that some period, call it what you like—I think "probation" is an unfortunate word; I do not know how it arose—of pause or of control should be interposed. I am wondering whether it could not be got over by really, in effect, starting disarmament at once, but making it, for a period only, of a token nature. If you did it for the first six months, say at the rate of 24 per cent., gradually rising in the later periods, you would be able to maintain that disarmament to some extent had actually started, and you would
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avoid the psychological humiliation which certainly does arise from the German point of view when that country is told that no disarmament of any kind is going to take place for a period. I would urge, therefore, that we should place ourselves upon the unassailable foundation of a just Disarmament Convention offered by the whole world to Germany. That is the strong factor before everything else. We should offer it to Germany; urge it upon her. But what if she rejects it? What if she finds, as she has already found, some reason or excuse for not accepting it? Are we going to allow her simply to go on and re-arm? I submit that it is necessary to take action of some kind.
Various Members in the House to-day have used words such as "collective action" and "guarantees" which really are the measures which actually would have to be taken. It seems to me that in that position we must take action of some kind. It might he brought into operation under Article 16 of the League of Nations. The first step, surely, would he economic sanctions. I know that Members on the Front Bench cannot use language of this kind, but there is no reason why a bank-bencher, speaking without the responsibility of Members of the Government, should not say exactly what people are thinking and what we shall have to make up our minds about. I suggest, first of all, that the right course would be economic sanctions, and international blockade of all German exports, which would, I believe, if done immediately. achieve the result desired. That course should be applied to any nation in the world whichever it might be which was defying the world opinion and acting in a way dangerous to mankind.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: If nations are already disarmed, will the hon. Gentleman explain who will carry out the blockade and apply the sanctions of which he has been telling the House?
Mr. MANDER: Perhaps I have not explained my argument clearly. This would happen at once before disarmament had taken place.
Vice-Admiral TAYLOR: If disarmament had taken place, what would you do then?
Mr. MANDER: I am suggesting that action of this kind should be taken before disarmament has taken place. It would have to be dealt with at once by the world as it is at the present time. Supposing the nations were unable to agree, as might be the case, about economic sanctions, the question might be asked— my hon. and gallant Friend, I am sure, will put it— "Would you in any circumstances be willing to apply force to Germany or to any other nation who might be a danger and an aggressor to the rest of the world?" That is the question one has to answer. As an extreme measure in order to prevent such a disaster to the world as the rearmament of Germany would be, I say "Yes". Surely, we realise that for a long time in this world force is going to rule in human affairs. It is better that that force should be in the hands of some central authority rather than in the hands of parties to the dispute. It is what we have done inside our own borders, and it is what is bound to come to the whole world in due course.
Personally—I am speaking for myself only—I think that we shall be driven to having some form of international police force, preferably an air police force. I believe that recent events are showing that you cannot effectively go on relying simply upon good will and the desire of all nations to work together. You must have some sanction behind it, and I would not hesitate for a moment to see something of the kind organised upon an international basis. It is easy to pour ridicule upon it and to point out difficulties and dangers. These can be faced in national problems, and they can be faced and solved in world problems, too. After all, the object of an army is to break the law. The object of the police is to preserve the law and to see that it is preserved. I urge the Government to go forward with their policy which they have so clearly set forward to-day, pursuing every possible channel by obtaining agreement and by submitting a better and more effective Disarmament Convention, if possible, to Germany, and pressing it upon her to the utmost. I believe that we are faced to-day with as grave a danger as existed in the summer months of 1914. The difference is that nobody then realised what was coming, but now we do realise it, and I hope that the
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Government will succeed in saving us and the world from another disaster which might well bring civilisation to an end.
9.13 p.m.
Mr. MAXTON: I do not know how the rest of the House feels about to-day's Debate, but I must say that it leaves me with a sense of profound dissatisfaction, which started with the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary and increased to perhaps a maximum point with the speech of the hon, Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander). He who has stood in this House as perhaps the most enthusiastic denouncer of the use of force has just concluded a. speech—
Mr. MANDER: Force in the right place.
Mr. MAXTON: I am afraid I do not accept that definition as being of any value, because the right place for me is exactly where I want to use it, and for him also and for everybody else, including Herr Hitler in Germany.
Mr. MANDER: Is my hon. Friend willing then to abolish the Metropolitan Police? That is the logical result of his argument.
Mr. MAXTON: I would start there. I made a speech here when the Home Secretary was introducing his new methods of organisation pointing out that the Metropolitan Police was a menace to the public safety. But I do not want to be dragged off the issues involved in this Debate. As I was informed about this Debate through the medium of the public Press, I learned that it was to be a Debate about the Locarno Treaty. The field of Foreign Affairs has been ranged over rather than the limited question raised by Locarno. I think the statement of the Foreign Secretary on the meaning of Locarno was the most awful piece of specious pleading that ever I heard in this House. He analysed Locarno and showed that it meant precisely nothing, or, rather, that it only means as much as the British Government care to make it mean. I was forcibly reminded of the nature of the understanding that Britain had with European countries just before 1914. My old friend, Keir Hardie, on many occasions before 1914, when the Liberal Government was in power, stood up in this

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House and wanted to know the nature of the commitments between England and France and other European countries in the event of war breaking out, and he invariably received the answer from the Foreign Minister of the party to which the present Foreign Minister was then attached, that we were committed to nothing at all. We had no commitments in Europe that compelled this nation to go to war.
That is what we were told to-day by the Foreign Secretary, but every one of us knows that by the 3rd August, 1914, our honour was involved so deeply that it would have been a disgraceful and discreditable thing for Great Britain not to partake in that war. At least, that was what the statesmen of the day said. That is what Viscount Grey said, and what the pacifist Liberal Government of that day said to the people. Although they said before August, 1914, that we had no commitments in Europe—we had no commitments in Europe so far as the mass of the people knew—the men had to march because our honour was involved. That is exactly the position put up by the Foreign Secretary to-day. Locarno means nothing. We are committed in no way, but if any one of the countries with which Britain is associated in that Pact were to get into any of the troubles indicated in the various points in the Pact, again we should be told that our honour was involved and that it was absolutely necessary that we should stand 100 per cent. with them.
Therefore, I express my profound dissatisfactibn with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. If Locarno means no more than he indicated to-day, then let us abolish it altogether. Why should it stand there as an international obligation, if it means nothing at all? If it means something, if it means anything, it means that British working people have been promised to any European conflict that may arise to any of the contracting parties to the Locarno Treaty. I voted against the Treaty when it was introduced into this House, and I hope that I shall have the opportunity of voting for its repeal. I hope that not many hon. Members will subscribe to the position put up by one hon. Member that a Treaty, once entered into, remains binding for all time. I have heard that doctrine propounded here a dozen times
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in regard to a dozen different things. A more preposterous doctrine one could not imagine. When one realises that a Treaty which was valuable in particular circumstances has become a menace, then to suggest that although we realise that it is a menace it must be maintained because we have entered into it, means that we shall be put into a series of complications that, would be indefensible.
What is more terrifying—I do not think that is too strong a word—about to-day's Debate is the complete spirit of hopelessness, in face of the war danger, that has run as an undercurrent through every speech. Unilateral disarmament, which we have made more than any other country, has failed. I, like the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), would have all the facts produced and broadcast to the people of this country. Every detail that is known to the Foreign Secretary or to the Prime Minister or to any of the Service Ministers should be known to every person whose life may be involved in the circumstances that we are discussing to-day. Why there should be any refusal on the part of the present Prime Minister to give us the most full information as to all the facts, I cannot understand. There is something worse than secret diplomacy, and that is keeping secret the facts around which the diplomacy operates. There can be no justification in doing that in the circumstances in which we are to-day. Every fact that is available to any of the Ministers should be available to the whole of the people.
We are told that unilateral disarmament has failed. Obviously, confronted with the complete breakdown of the Disarmament Conference, multi-lateral disarmament has failed. All things are at a deadlock. And the spirit of this House to-day has obviously been that, since unilateral disarmament has failed, since the attempts at general disarmament have failed, to talk about disarmament at all is so much nonsense and that we should start arming to the teeth. [Hox. MEMBERS: "Nonsense!" "Why not?" "No!"] There is very strong disagreement. An hon. Gentleman behind me says "Why not? "The hon. Gentleman in front says "Nonsense. "There have been definite speeches to-day suggesting that, since the moves towards disarmament that have been going on since the end of the War have failed, Britain must

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fall back on herself and must recognise that the attempt to keep a disarmed world is futile, is pursuing a fantasy, and the only alternative of a practical nature that has been suggested here to-day is to arm ourselves, and preferably to arm the Empire as well if we can.
I want to ask the men who have been more closely engaged in this matter, both the Government representatives and the right hon. Gentleman who has just come into the House and has also been very heavily involved in every operation through his position as the President of the Disarmament Conference, and I want to ask the armament-mongers of this House, whether the failure is due to the fact that the proposition has been tackled at the wrong end; whether the failure of the Disarmament Conference is due not to difficulties about so many aeroplanes, so many submarines, or so many torpedo-boat destroyers. The breakdown of the Disarmament Conference is due to the same fundamental causes as those which led to the breakdown of the World Economic Conference. The trade antagonisms which are inherent in the existing social system drove all the elements in the World Economic Conference apart, although common sense seemed to indicate that they should get together. Common sense brought the Conference together, but the basic economic antagonisms were too strong when its elements got together, and they were driven apart. The antagonisms of armaments are merely a cruder expression of the economic antagonisms underneath.
I suggest to the Prime Minister and to the Government that the key problem in the world to-day is not the problem of disarmament or of war; it is the problem of unemployment. You have to find the cure for unemployment before you can find the way to remove the trade antagonisms, and you have to remove the trade antagonisms before you can remove the competition in armaments. I cannot see, and have not seen, in this House any attempt to alter the economic foundations in such a way as would lead to the cure of unemployment. I cannot see any realisation in this House that the trade antagonisms can possibly be done away with. Indeed, I see to-day a keener trade antagonism than ever before. I see a more strenuous and less scrupulous
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struggle for markets than ever before. Therefore, I am bound to recognise that it is only reasonable to expect a more strenuous struggle in armament building. The only hope that I have in the matter is that outside this House the Government that tries to inveigle the people into being marched out to destruction will meet with a resistance such as they have never met before, a resistance from the common people, who are not sufficiently far away from the last War to have forgotten what it meant. I hope that the Governments in the various countries of the world, including Germany and France, will meet with a similar resistance from their countrymen.
Any attempt to precipitate another war in Europe will lead to an upheaval along entirely different lines, and create the basic conditions which would enable the establishment of a world peace and world disarmament. These conditions are not present to-day. They are not being brought any nearer by anything that the Government have done. We have to recognise that good intentions in the way of disarmament and peace are not enough to secure disarmament or even to check any downward tendency. If I read the meaning of this House to-day, the overwhelming opinion is in the direction of starting an increase of armaments. To such a policy any resistance that we here can offer we shall offer, and any resistance that we can raise outside we shall do our best to raise.
9.32 p.m.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Hon. Members, during the whole of the day, have debated the means by which we can keep the peace abroad. I shall venture only for one moment to stray from that theme in order to make a contribution towards keeping the peace at home. I notice that there is a very considerable proportion of people in this House and in this country who keep all their loving-kindness for export—I am not sure than my hon. Friend who spoke last is not among them—and who keep their rancour and ferocity entirely for the benefit of their fellow-countrymen. I listened to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, and I was touched by his conclusion that we must rely on the power of righteousness and love one another. But I read another speech only yesterday in the "Times" newspaper—I rely upon the report, and

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the right hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong—from which it appears that the right hon. Gentleman said:
"The workers who were serving in the Army and the Navy were their own people, and they swore allegiance not to a Tory Government but to whatever Government was in power. He believed that when the Socialists got into power the mass of the soldiers and sailors would back them up. As for their officers, the Socialist Government would know what to do with them, if they became treacherous in the day of trial."
Mr. LANSBURY: The only thing I have to say is that I also related that to the Curragh Camp insurrection against the Liberal Government, and I said that I was practically certain that the soldiers would not allow their officers to debauch them from their loyalty to this House and to the Crown.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the words which I have read? We are dealing not with matters of 20 years ago, but with the present day. I will analyse these words very briefly.
"The workers who were serving in the Army and the Navy were their own people. "What does he mean by that? Why should he, with a minority of wage-earning voters behind him, dare to say that they alone represent the Forces?
"They swear allegiance not to a Tory Government but to whatever Government was in power."
They do nothing of the kind. They swear allegiance to the Crown, which is a higher and superior loyalty— —
Mr. LANSBURY: Rubbish.
Mr. CHURCHILL: —which is a higher and more general loyalty— —
Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—
Mr. CHURCHILL: I am not going to give way, and it is no good the right hon. Gentleman getting so very angry. He made the speech and he has to listen to his own speech. That is all that he has to put up with.
"He believed that when the Socialists got into power the mass of the soldiers and sailors would back them up."
Back them up in what? What are the plans which the right hon. Gentleman is nursing against us which he wants to
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have backed up by the Army and Navy? Then follows the sentence without which I would not have challenged the right hon. Gentleman.
"As for their officers, the Socialist Government would know what to do with them if they became treacherous in the day of trial."
It is a mean thing to try to separate the officers from the soldiers and sailors. It is a needless, gratuitous and ungrateful thing. Twice we have had a Socialist Government in power with a minority, and with a country anxious to dismiss them, and never has there been any failure of the Services to obey orders which they have received from properly constituted authority. Here is the right hon. Gentleman, who is always preaching the doctrine of universal loving kindness as long as it concerns countries outside this, a man who holds a responsible position in our hierarchy, who does not hesitate to use language about the armed Forces of the Crown which is utterly uncalled for, and which I have no hesitation in characterising as shameful and disgraceful.
I leave the right hon. Gentleman and come to my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). I do not think that he has distinguished himself very much during the Parliamentary Recess. I think he wrote quite a good letter to the British Broadcasting Corporation, but, apart from that, his interventions have riot contributed greatly to our enlightenment or to the consolidation of peace. My right hon. Friend seems to have in his mind a belief, a feeling, that he is entitled to some special claim to interpret the Treaty of Versailles, and other treaties which ended the War. It is quite true that he had a great deal to do with the making of that Treaty, and he wrote into it a great many of its most stringent aspects. I do not know whether "Hanging the Kaiser" actually got into the Treaty. That fell down perhaps at the General Election, but, at any rate, once a treaty is signed it becomes an international instrument which everyone can judge, and I have no hesitation in saying that, personally, I prefer to take the measured opinion of the jurists, upon who the Foreign Office relies, to the highly coloured account as to what is or is not meant in the Treaty which emanated from the right hon. Gentleman.

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I believe that the Treaty has been maintained in the letter and also in the spirit. It is not true to say that this country—I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvan Boroughs withdraw that aspect of his case—or the great countries with whom we have been associated, have violated the Treaty in the letter or in the spirit. So far as the letter is concerned, that rests entirely upon the statement in the dispatch of the Government of August, 1932, which laid out the whole case in a most masterly manner. So far as the spirit is concerned, it is well known that ever since the Treaty was signed mitigations have been constantly introduced, far more than the Treaty contemplated. The evacuations of German territory have been carried out with greater rapidity, while the great scheme and structure of reparations has been swept away altogether, and the conquerors, the victors, in the struggle, have lent a thousand million sterling to Germany over and above anything they have been paid. It is altogether wrong therefore to suggest that the late Allies in the War have failed in the letter or in the spirit to carry out, broadly speaking, their Treaty obligations.
My right hon. Friend made to-night a deeply interesting speech, to which I listened, like everyone else with admiration, at the persuasive charm and skill with which he pressed his point. There is nothing that my right hon. Friend can do so well as to draw one side of a picture in the most glowing manner and then reduce the other side to small and pitiable proportions. He gave an account of the state of Europe. He represented that Germany might have a few thousand more rifles than was allowed by the Treaty, a few more boy scouts, and then he pictured the enormous armies of Czechoslovakia and Poland and France, with their thousands of cannon, and so forth. If I could believe that picture I should feel much comforted, but I cannot. I find it difficult to believe it in view of the obvious fear which holds all the nations who are neighbours of Germany and the obvious lack of fear which apparently controls the behaviour of the German Government and a large proportion of the German people.
The great dominant fact is that Germany is re-arming, has already begun to re-arm. I have no sources of informa-
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tion but those of the public Press, but we read of large importations of scrap iron and nickel and war metals, quite out of the ordinary. We read all the news which accumulates of the military spirit which is rife throughout the country; we see that a philosophy of blood lust is being inculcated into their youth to which no parallel can be found since the days of barbarism. We see all these forces on the move, and we must remember that it is the same mighty Germany which fought all the world and almost beat the world; it is the same mighty Germany which took two and a half lives for every German life that was taken. No wonder when you get these preparations, these doctrines, and these assertions openly made that there is alarm throughout the whole circle of nations which surround Germany, an alarm which concerns not only the countries involved in the late War and still affected by the antagonisms of the War, but countries which observed strict neutrality during the War, like Denmark, Holland and Switzerland. Switzerland, indeed, has been forced to make a large credit, this peaceful country, quite impartial, Germans as well as Frenchmen living there, in order to defend herself. There is no doubt where the fear lies. I do not know, no one knows exactly, what is the position of German armaments; all we know is that the greatest anxiety has been caused to all her neighbours by her armaments and by her doctrines.
The Leader of the Opposition said just now that he and the Socialist party would never consent to the re-arming of Germany. I was very pleased when I read that. I agree with him. I should feel very much safer if I felt that that would not happen in my lifetime or in that of my children. But is the right hon. Gentleman quite sure that the Germans will come and ask him for his consent before they re-arm? Does he not think that they might omit that formality, and go ahead without even taking a card vote of the Trades Union Congress? Then the right hon. Gentleman said, "But in order to prevent them re-arming I should like to see all the other countries, their neighbours, disarm, "and that has been the burden of his speech and of many other speeches. But I doubt very much whether the other Powers are going to take any notice. I do not see why they should. In the next breath

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the right hon. Gentleman said that if they take his advice, and if it should turn out wrong and they find themselves exposed to attacks and getting into trouble, the first thing he will do will be to call a general strike in order to prevent any aid being lent them. If the right hon. Gentleman is not going to take the slightest responsibility for these people, even if they do take his advice, I am inclined to think that they will be quite entitled to say to him, "Mind your own business."
But it is our own position that weighs upon us most of all here in this House, and it is about that that I will say a few words before I make room for the right hon. Gentleman who is to wind up the Debate for the Labour party. I was very glad to hear the definition given by the Foreign Secretary of our obligations under the Treaty of Locarno, and also that given in the very admirable speech in the country some days ago by the Under-Secretary. It is perfectly clear, as I have several times contended in this House, that whether in regard to the general Clauses of the Treaty or in regard to the special obligations under the emergency Clause, we still remain the judges of the event; we are the honourable judges of the event, but we still remain the judges, and we are free to choose. That is a very great re-assurance to the country, for in many parts it has been suggested that the decision would rest with someone outside the control of this country altogether. We are free to choose; and such declarations as that made by the Under-Secretary some days ago and not controverted by the French Government will henceforth rule in the interpretation of this Treaty. I am bound to say that I welcome those interpretations very much indeed. Now we have our freedom, our freedom to decide, let us be very careful that we do not corn-promise it or do not whittle it away.
That is why I am so glad that this period of what is called probation, this interval, has been introduced into this dangerous process of disarmament in Europe, which has played a noticeable part in raising the temperature to its present level. if we wish to keep our freedom, we must recognise the fact—I mean our freedom within our obligations, for far would it be for me to suggest
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that we should abandon our obligations, whatever they are—it is of the utmost importance that we should forthwith recognise that our role in Europe is more limited than it has hitherto been considered to be. Isolation is, I believe, utterly impossible, but we should nevertheless practise a certain degree of sober detachment from the European scene. We should not try to weaken these great Powers which are in great danger, or feel themselves in great danger, and thereby expose ourselves to a demand that we should come to their aia—a demand interpreted in the very strictest sense.
I have deprecated these schemes which we have laid before the Disarmament Conference prescribing the size of all the armies and navies and air forces of Europe. I am not going to take up the limited time I have in analysing these schemes, the MacDonald Plan as it has been called. It never had the slightest chance of being accepted—never. I told the House in March that it never had the slightest chance of being accepted. How could you expect those countries that feel themselves in so great danger to make the very large reductions which were asked for in their armaments, their air forces and armies, while at the same time substantial increases were offered to the Germany with which we are now confronted? I know that it is natural for Ministers, for the Prime Minister, to wish to play a great part on the European stage, and to bestride Europe in the cause of peace, to be as it were the saviours of Europe. You cannot be the saviours of Europe on a limited liability. I agree with the statement of the late Mr. Bonar Law, who said that we cannot be the policemen of the whole world. We have to discharge our obligations, but we cannot take upon ourselves, our people do not desire us to take upon ourselves, undue obligations into which we shall certainly come if we are the leaders in compelling and pressing for a great diminution in the strength of France and other Powers which are neighbours of Germany. How lucky it is that the French did not take the advice that we have been tendering them in the last few years, or the advice which the United States has given them —I am glad the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs quoted the figures—

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advice tendered from the safe position 3,000 miles across the ocean If they had accepted it war would be much nearer, and our obligation to come to their aid would be much more strictly interpreted.
Mr. DAVID MASON: No.
Mr. CHURCHILL: I think that is so. At any rate, it is not the Gold Standard we are discussing. I do feel that there should be recognition of the fact that we ought not to place ourselves continually in the most prominent position and endeavour to produce spectacular effects of disarmament in Europe, because as surely as we do a good deal of our discretionary power will be gradually whittled away and reduced. I would not like to speak in this Debate without giving a definite counsel, because I think one ought to do that. The hon. Gentleman who preceded me said that the situation was hopeless. I am not so sure that it is hopeless. It seems to me that there is a fairly general measure of agreement as to the course which we should now pursue. I think we should adhere to the League of Nations. I did not agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs when he mocked and scolded the League, not to-day but in a speech in the country. Nor do I agree with those poor friends of the League who say that just because the League was incapable of dealing with the situation in the Far East, on the other side of the world, it will have no efficacy in dealing with the European situation. What could you expect of the League in far off Asia? China and Japan—what do they care for the League of Nations. Russia and the United States—neither of them Members of the League. Those four countries comprise half the population of the globe. They form another world, a world in itself, and you should not judge of the success or power of a great international instrument like this by the fact that it has not been able to make its will effective at the other end of the world. Very different is the case in Euope. In Europe you have at least erected it upon the basis of the Treaties of Peace. That is the foundation on which you can build and not only is it erected on that foundation but powerful nations stand fully armed to defend those Treaties and if necessary to make themselves the agents and authorities of the League of Nations.
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I believe that we shall find our greatest safety in co-operating with the other Powers of Europe, not in taking a leading part but in coming in our proper place, with all the neutral States and the smaller States of Europe which will gather together anxiously in the near future at Geneva. We shall make a great mistake to separate ourselves entirely from them at this juncture. Whatever way we turn there is risk. There is peril on every side. But I believe that the least risk and the greatest help will be found in recreating the Concert of Europe through the League of Nations, not for the purpose of fiercely quarrelling and haggling about the details of disarmament but in an attempt to address Germany collectively, so that there may be some redress of the grievances of the German nation and that that may be effected before this peril of re-armament reaches a point which may endanger the peace of the world.
I have only one thing more to say, and it was suggested to me by what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said at the close of his speech and by those figures which he gave of our disarmament and other people's rearmament. I see in the House some of the Ministers responsible for Defence Departments. I have been in that position myself in the years of baffling uncertainty through which we passed before the Great War, and I should like to tell those Ministers this, which I give from my own experience. In such circumstances every kind of pressure will be put upon them to reduce what they consider and what they are advised to, be the necessary provision for our security. The papers will write leading articles. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his bounden duty and the Treasury are bound to put their case. The economists will give their views, and in Parliament there will be pressure for cutting down this and cutting down that. But if trouble should come, none of these gentlemen, none of the able editors, none of the stern economists will be at hand to defend the Ministers. When the Service Departments are found to be hopelessly lacking in the essentials of our safety it will be no use to turn round and say to this or that newspaper, "You wrote an article saying that there must

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be a great cut," or in saying to this or that Member of Parliament, "You voted against any increase." These people will be among the very first to say, "Oh, you took all this money and yet you have not even provided what was necessary."
In these circumstances, proved as it is that we have disarmed to the verge of risk, nay, well into the thick of risk, a very great responsibility rests upon the Ministers for the Defence Departments to assure us that adequate provision is made for our safety and for having the power and the time if necessary to realise the whole latent strength of our country and also, let me add, for us to be able in any case to maintain our neutrality effectually—a neutrality from which, as I have said before, we should never be drawn except upon the conscience and the will of the overwhelming mass of our people.
10.0 p.m.
Mr. ATTLEE: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) opened his speech with a lecture to the Leader of the Opposition which was perhaps not entirely germane to the rest of his speech. I gathered that he was dealing with the ethics of the loyalty of the armed forces of the Crown. He disposed of it all quite glibly and I should feel quite satisfied, if I had not during the last fortnight been reading an admirable work by the right hon. Gentleman, about his distinguished ancestor, in which the exact position of a leader of the armed forces of the Crown, torn between divided loyalties is treated with very great fairness and acuteness. As a matter of fact the point made by my right hon. Friend and by the right hon. Gentleman is really germane to the whole question that we should be discussing in a disarmament Debate, because, as I hope to show, the question that we have to face is whether we are in favour of the absolute loyalty of citizens to individual and sovereign states or whether those individual loyalties are to be subservient to a greater loyalty to a world state. Therefore the point that has been raised is, I think, very close to the matter.
I wish to deal first with one or two points from the speech of the Foreign Secretary. I think his arguments had a rather mixed pedigree. They did not all seem to be from the Geneva stable. A
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good many of them were obviously by Trocadero lunch out of East Fulham. The Prime Minister, I noticed, at that very auspicious luncheon on a very auspicious day of the week stressed the need for propaganda and the Foreign Secretary supplied it. The speech, it seemed to me, explained to anyone who listened to it, the right hon. Gentleman's great success at the Bar and his failure as a Foreign Minister. It was an eminently forensic speech. I always notice the extraordinary skill of the right hon. Gentleman in the art of omission. When he tells a story he always begins at a convenient point and leaves off at a convenient point. He generally starts his disarmament history somewhere about the Resolution of 22nd April, 1932, or perhaps the bringing back of Germany to the League, or perhaps even the Draft Convention of March, 1933. He always omits that period—perhaps it was his period of apprenticeship—in which the Disarmament Conference went from proposal to proposal all of which proved abortive.
He says that the British plan is the one that was discussed. Yes, but that was because all the other plans were met by him with coldness or indifference or hostility. The Russian plan, the Italian plan, several French plans were all brought forward and all cast aside. There vas also the Hoover plan. It is said that we have always been ready to do everything, but the right hon. Gentleman left out of his story our reservation about bombing and our objection to the Hoover plan about the tanks. It is so unfortunate that these obstinate foreigners will always find difficulties and differences about details in our plan, whereas we are always perfectly willing to accept their plans—except in one or two important matters in which we must have reservations.
We heard the story again of proposals brought forward under the MacDonald plan, which was lost at Geneva, and there the Prime Minister went off to Rome and conferred with Signor Mussolini on a Four-Power Pact. Above all, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs omitted perhaps the overriding matter that has caused most trouble in regard to disarmament and that, quite apart from any propaganda of the Labour party, is a thing that you find talked of in all circles up and down the country where people

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are interested in peace, and that is the failure over the Sino-Japanese dispute. That apparently has been put quietly to bed now. A question was asked about it, and the Foreign Secretary said, "Nothing is happening; it is quite all right." Everybody knows that in that Sino-Japanese dispute the whole question of security was bound up, and it is that failure of the League of Nations that has really stultified the disarmament programme right the way through. I noticed too that when he talked of British disarmament and the abolition of cavalry, the Foreign Secretary did not mention the creation of the Tank Corps. In all these little things we notice the forensic touch at its most efficient.
The rest of his speech was really a paean of praise of this country. We have done every thing right, and everybody who has suggested anything to the contrary had some old and well-turned phrase that has been thrown at the Liberal party during the last five or six decades. Hence the cheers of all the Jingoes. The general tone of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech, though it is very agreeable to hear one's country praised, was perhaps not very happy, because at the back of it all was not merely praise of ourselves, but depreciation of all other countries. It was followed by speeches from two elder statesmen, who seemed to me to revive the fervid emotions of the war period. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) delivered a philippic—I do not say it was not well deserved—against Germany, and the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) attacked France and her satellites, and each thought the other's speech was mischievous. I think probably both were right. Certainly, I loathe and detest the present German regime and the whole spirit of the Nazi movement. I am entirely opposed to Fascism and to the Fascist State and the kind of pretext given by the sham election now going on that the whole of Germany is united behind Herr Hitler. It is the same silly assumption that the Prime Minister makes when he speaks about the National Government and no more return to party strife.
Mr. CHURCHILL: He does not use the same methods.
Mr. ATTLEE: I agree, but at the back of it all, although we get a different method, we get the same kind of idea, and that is an inflated nationalist idea and the conception of the nation, and not only the nation but the State, overruling the individual views of all the citizens. That, of course, is supposed to be the besetting sin of the Socialists, but as a matter of fact it is put forward most of all by your neo-Conservative, whether he wears a black shirt, or a brown shirt, or any of those various shirts that seem to be the popular wear in politics nowadays. The party on this side, as I say, loathe the German regime probably more than anyone in this House, but we have to recognise that this Frankenstein has been made by the victorious Powers. That has happened, and a mere attack is not going to cure the trouble. We have had example after example of the way in which you have attacked nations because you have considered that they were being oppressed by some small gang. The same old thing was said by the Kings of Europe against the French revolution, and it was said by the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) against the makers of the Russian revolution; and I do not believe that it is very much use in this House to indulge in strong language against the Nazi regime.
I do not believe that you will do very much by outlawing the Nazi regime. I recognise that probably most of us feel that we should like to do so. It is the natural thing to say, "It is detestable; let us have nothing to do with it, "but we have to look to the future of the world, and the first point to remember is that, whether we like it or not, we have to live in the same world as Germany under its present rulers. On these benches we long ago recognised that, however much you liked or disliked it, you had to live in the same world with Russia and the present rulers of Russia, and therefore it is useless, if you believe in anything like world peace, to think that you can have relations only with those States whose internal organisation or policy you like. It seems to me that nowadays we have to realise that the whole conception of nationalism is out of date, that we need internationalism, and that the whole failure since 1919 has been the failure to implement and develop what really was recognised at the time

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of the Peace Treaties, namely, that you have got beyond the individual States and that you have to have some super-government of the world.
We have been paying lip-service to that idea. I think there is a good deal of lip-service about still, and only lip-service, to the League of Nations. We have had a very frank speech from the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Sir R. Banks). He did not call it lip-service, but a simulated respect for the League of Nations. I thought, however, that in his accents I caught perhaps the true voice of a very large section of the Conservative party, who are really out against the League of Nations and the whole of that idea. Curiously enough, I caught very much the same thing in the speech of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. Quite obviously he did not really believe that when the various nations joined the League of Nations they were all friends. He did not seem to think that an armed America would be any protection to this country, or an armed France either. He was obviously in this respect quite pre-War. Be was still considering a separate lot of warring nations, all ready to fall upon each other at any time.
I can remember only a short time ago in this House when people actually said, "if France is armed, it is a great protection to us. "The same is true with regard to America. It seems that we are getting a long way from that, and now we are going to look upon everybody as potential enemies. The question has been put more than once by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition when we have had discussions on the Army, Air and Navy Estimates— "Who is your enemy? "It is also very relevant to the question whether our forces are large enough or small enough because the comparison is always made to pre-War days when there was no League of Nations and when there was no collective protection. When I listen to a speech like that of the hon. and learned Member for Swindon, when I read the Resolution passed at the Conservative Conference, and when I try to square them up with the speech of the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister I find it rather difficult. I have to take refuge in that cryptic remark of the Prime Minister at the luncheon the other day in which be
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spoke of himself and his colleagues as being
"separated in ideals but united in objects."
It is an admirable phrase, but what it means I do not know.
I want to put it to the House that it is not much good thinking that you can get very far in disarmament unless the disarmament is to be linked up with security. The question is: are we going in for full security or, as some people even now suggest, are we going to go back and just strengthen ourselves and stand alone in this world. I agree with the Foreign Secretary when he says that isolation is impossible to-day. When you say you are going in for full security what exactly does that mean? I believe that the acid test is the readiness to surrender a large part or, at any rate, a considerable part of your individual sovereignty. I do not believe that numbers of people with then lip support of the League of Nations realise that this is the essential thing. People have mental reservations and I think that the Foreign Secretary lent them some support in his description of the League of Nations when he said that if the worst came to the worst you can after all always decide your own destiny. That simply means that although you belong to a team you must have your individual right to make the rules and, if necessary, to walk off the field. I believe that the failure of the Disarmament Conference hitherto and the apparent failure of the League of Nations is due to the fact that if you want full security you have to surrender sovereignty. The League of Nations will never work on the constitution of the Polish Diet. You have to go a great deal further than you have gone. You have to make the League of Nations a real League and you have to put loyalty to the League of Nations above loyalty to your country. That is a hard saying for many people. It cuts against all kinds of old instincts.
When you work out what the position of the citizens of this country is with all the covenants we have signed and all the obligations we have undertaken, unless we have undertaken them with our tongues in our cheeks, if we really believe what has been sworn on our behalf, we have a higher allegiance than to our own country. If our country were declared to he an aggressor State, it would be right

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for all to go against her. If we put that forward many people would say it is treason. If you think that that is treason you have not accepted the principle of the League of Nations. We would like to see that principle enshrined in our laws in this country and in the laws of every other country.
Mr. O'C0NNOR: Would you support that principle by the Army—by force?
Mr. ATTLEE: Certainly, if we have to have sanctions, and as long as we are to have the Army, the Navy and the Air Force. If we are in a League like that we must be prepared to take risks for peace. We on this side propose entire disarmament. We believe in an international police force. I do not believe that we could get satisfactory sanctions by means of a number of individual national forces which would have to be called up by a central authority. I think we have to go much further than that. I want to see air forces abolished, and an international air service. I should like to see navies abolished, and an international mercantile marine. I should like to see all the armies of separate States abolished, in exactly the same way as, in civilised countries, we make people hand over their revolvers and rely on the police force. Of course, there-must be a police force which is loyal to the ideals. But I also suggest that, without that, we may get a useful breathing space by qualitative disarmament.
We may get a mood which may bring Germany back into the League if we can work for all-round disarmament, but I would not have Germany brought back into the League if the price be re-armament. I believe that the Disarmament Conference has got to continue its work despite Germany having gone out of it. I believe, still more, that the League of Nations has got to be made effective, and I do not believe that it will be effective as long as we have the unrighted wrong of the Far East remaining. Finally, I suggest that it would be perfectly ridiculous to surrender any of our sovereignty to the League of Nations while at the same time believing so strongly in private enterprise as to allow the private traffic in arms. I believe that is having a very great influence upon events. I do not think that hitherto this country has done nearly enough, in fact.
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I think it has done very little, in the direction of preventing private traffic in arms.
Finally, I would say that whatever may be done in the matter of disarmament, whatever may be our feeling with regard to the dangerous condition of the world caused by national animosities, we must remember that the disease from which the world is suffering is an economic disease, that if the patient had not been in a debilitated state owing to the breakdown of economic conditions these fevers, such as the Nazi fever and others, would not have caught hold of the patient. Therefore, we say that the failure, the complete failure, of the World Economic Conference is most intimately bound up with the question of the survival of the League of Nations and the success of world disarmament.
10.24 p.m.
The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Eden): I think that no one who has listened to the course of this most important Debate will be left in any doubt as to the very real value of the discussion which has taken place. It is at once a stimulating and a sobering reflection that this is now one of the very few assemblies in the world where such a free and frank discussion of events could, in fact, take place. That is a source, I think, at once of pride and satisfaction, although it is perhaps also a responsibility.
Before I deal with Disarmament, would like to say something on the subject which has been prominent in the speeches both of the Leader of the Opposition and of the hon. Member for Lime-house (Mr. Attlee). There seems to be a strain of complaint in their declarations that much of our trouble to-day, and a large percentage of the difficulties of the Disarmament Conference, are due to feeble and infirm handling of the situation in the Far East a year or more ago. I must frankly state that I am not in agreement with hon. Members opposite. It never seems to me that anyone, judging at once the authority and the limitations of the League, would have anticipated any other course of events, so far as the League was concerned, than actually took place. I am not asking hon. Members to accept my judgment or verdict in regard to the League's handling of the Far

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Eastern dispute. I fully appreciate that since hon. Members believe that the League has failed, even more criticism falls upon His Majesty's Government. I will merely quote, if I may, the judgment of one who was extremely well qualified to speak on this matter, the late Lord Grey, who, in March last, speaking about the Far Eastern dispute, said:
"The attacks on the League for its handling of the Far Eastern trouble were not justified. The League had been a restraining influence from the beginning."
There were those who said that this Far Eastern dispute was a test case, and that by it the League of Nations would stand or fall. In the opinion of Lord Grey it was not a test case. The dispute in the Far East, lie said, was a dispute between two nations on the other side of the world, and it was different from a European question. What more, he asked, could the League have done? That is a question to which we have never yet had a positive answer. Lord. Grey said:
"I do not like the idea of resorting to war to prevent war. It is too much like lighting a large fire in order to put out a smaller one. Anyhow in this case it seems to me it was peculiarly unsuitable for any action of that sort on the part of the League of Nations. Economic pressure could not have been applied on Japan unless it was done in co-operation with the Government of the United States. I am delighted that the United States has joined with the League as much as it has in this conflict, but I do not for a moment. believe that the United States Government has been so bashful that it has been anxious to do much more and has only been waiting to be invited to do so. So far as I am aware the British Government and the League have shown no backwardness in supporting anything which the United States Government proposed, and to have proposed more than the United States Government was ready to co-operate in would not have been effective and would not have been wise."
That is all that I want to say about the Far Eastern dispute. I want to concentrate my reply upon the criticisms that have been made against the Government for its disarmament policy. I confess that as I listened to the Debate it seemed to me that the Government were not so much under fire as that they were spectators of a cross fire, which is always the more agreeable position for a Government to occupy. So far as I understand the criticisms levelled against us, they are two-fold. The criticism from
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the right hon. Gentleman opposite is that our Draft Convention itself was utterly inadequate— "a very meagre step" was the phrase that I took down; whereas from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) the criticism is that we should have departed from this really admirable document. Let me take first the criticism of the document itself. It is quite unnecessary to repeat to the House at this hour what that document sought to do. It is, perhaps, enough to enumerate briefly the amount of disarmament it proposed. Had the nations of the world accepted it, if they would now accept it, we should have reduced the term of service in the conscript armies to eight months; we should have very largely reduced the number of men under service in all the conscript armies of the world; we should have virtually abolished all heavy artillery—there would be no guns left larger than the 4.5-inch —scarcely more than a field gun; we should have abolished all heavy tanks; we should have provided for the-total abolition of military and naval aviation, provided that a scheme could be worked out, and that is an indispensable condition, for the control of civil aviation. We outlined immediate and drastic reductions, in any event, to, in some instances, nearly a quarter of their present figure, of the air forces of the world.
I maintain without hesitation that, had all the nations accepted that Draft Convention when the Prime Minister put it down at Geneva, we should, in fact, have realised by far the greatest measure of agreed disarmament that the world has ever attempted. I am not going to ask hon. Members opposite to accept my judgment upon it; there are others better qualified. For instance, the representative of the United States Government spoke in terms of warm approval of this draft Convention, on account of the amount of disarmament contained herein; and, to quote a domestic authority, there is a newspaper which does not support the Government—the "Star"—in which there appeared, the night or the day after the Prime Minister's speech in Geneva, a leading article headed "What we think," with the encouraging opening:
"Sign, Please."
It went on to say, in reference to this draft Convention:

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"If the Powers were to sign the Prime Minister's disarmament proposal to-day, there is no doubt that it would be all to the good. Not a home in Europe would be less safe. The war spirit would receive no encouragement. The financial saving would he enormous. Nobody would lose a penny except the armaments makers and their shareholders."
Then follows a sentence for which I apologise to the right hon Gentleman opposite:
"Any half-wit can pick holes in such a scheme";
while later on it says:
"The statesman (so called) who in any country tries to hamstring this plan, should be sent into private life by the force of public opinion."
Mr. LANSBURY: They did hamstring it in June.
Mr. EDEN: The right hon. Gentleman's complaint is not foreign but domestic criticism. The article concludes:
"To refuse this olive branch of sanity"—
the olive branch of sanity so well de scribed by the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps)—
"will be the kind of mad folly which a man from Mars would find it impossible to believe."
I do not want to debate any further the, merits or demerits of the Draft Convention. It was never suggested that that document had any super-quality, but I am confident that it was accepted at Geneva as being an honest and sincere attempt to save the Conference on Disarmament. It has been, in fact, our sheet anchor ever since, and if we had not had it we should have drifted to disaster long since.
I come to the next question, the criticism that in this Convention other people come down while we stand pat. It is not altogether accurate, because we do go down in proportion as others go down, and others go down more than us because we began the process long before them. In any Draft Convention that seeks to bring about equality in reduction, account must be taken of those who have effected their reductions in an earlier period. That is the only sense in which our Draft Convention may be said to take care of our own position, that we ask others to do what we have done before or what we are prepared to do now. There could not be a better example than naval disarmament. The Navy is,
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perhaps, in a special sense our sphere. If the great land military powers had made reductions comparable with those that we have made on what we may call our element, perhaps the Geneva Conference in its present form need never have sat at all. Then the right hon. Gentleman gave us certain proposals which, as I understood it, he wished even now to put before the Conference. He will appreciate that we have not a copy of those proposals and we have had no time yet to study them, but they will be studied and perhaps discussions to decide as to a Debate can then proceed through the usual channels.
The right hon. Gentleman made great play with the private manufacture of arms. He complained that many of our industries at home were active and that some of their activity was due to the fact that they were turning out arms. These statements are not very difficult to make but they are admittedly very difficult to check, because in those industries which are concerned with the manufacture of arms in most cases that manufacture is comparatively a by-produt of the industry itself. For instance, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Birmingham Small Arms Company, and I am informed that the cause of their increased activity is in the main the success of the motor branch of their trade. I am sure he would not wish to withdraw from the Government the modicum of satisfaction that they can find from increased activity in the motor trade. Again he complained about explosives. I understand that the increased sale of explosives by one of the companies that he mentioned, a very great chemical combine, is due to the fact that the mining industry is doing a, little better and to the fact that the Minister of Health is engaged in slum clearance schemes which include the demolition of houses. Even explosives are not always used for the sinister purpose which he at once has in mind. I do not suppose that he will complain of the ever increasing amount of explosives used in slum clearance schemes.
There are two directions in which the right hon. Gentleman complains about the manufacture of arms. He says that we ourselves are increasing the manufacture of arms at home for domestic purposes. The answer to that is quite simple. We cannot do so beyond the actual figures of

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expenditure laid down in the Estimates passed by this House. There is no question of increased domestic expenditure on armaments and presumably therefore the right hon. Gentleman refers to increased export. As regards export, we have signed a Convention which was drafted at Geneva but has never come into force, not owing to any fault of our own but owing to the failure of Governments in other manufacturing countries to sign it. We have to-day by far the most effective system of licensing that exists, and no shipments of arms from this country may be made to any other country without a licence from the Government. I do not think that the House would ask me at this hour to say that it is an acceptable proposition that we should handicap our manufacturers further if the only result is that other foreign competitors obtain the trade. Any further action which can be taken should be taken, but it can only be taken internationally.
May I turn from that to the criticism of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs? He complained that we had thrown over our Draft Convention and that we had busied ourselves with amendments to it. I would like to assure him that we have never thrown over that Draft Convention, that we have not thrown it over, and that we still stand by it now. Perhaps the slight confusion of thought that there is in it is due to some of the language which has been used. What happened in June was that the Conference itself, in face of the fact that there were a great many reservations on various articles in our Draft Convention, decided that it was impossible to embark upon a Second Reading without first attempting to negotiate the difficulties which survived on the First Reading. Consequently the Conference instructed the Governments to initiate conversations with a view to overcoming these difficulties and harmonising the views of various Governments. The report which was made to the Bureau of the Conference on 14th October did not lay down the lines of a new plan or a new proposal. It did not indicate that we were departing from our Draft Convention, but it did explain the point of view which we had encountered in the course of the conversations which we had entered into at the request of the Dis-
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armament Conference. We want to be quite clear about that.
In the Draft Convention itself there is a proposal—if it is carefully studied it will be seen—that no actual destruction of material takes place until a year has elapsed. That is in order to allow machinery to get to work. If that period were extended from one year to three or to four years it would certainly be a debatable point. It is certainly a matter as to which a disarmed country might wish to state her own point of view or even to disagree, but I respectfully suggest that it is a matter for negotiation, and not an occasion for walking out of the Conference. If we are to be fair in this matter in our anxiety to do justice to the point of view of some, we must not be unjust to others, and it was no France who walked out of the Disarmament Conference a second time.
I am reminded in this connection of a story which I once heard of two distinguished statesmen, one from France and one from Germany, who were engaged in conversation as to the origin of the War. The German said to the Frenchman, "After all, when the history of the War comes to be written it will be difficult to decide where the greater measure of the blame lies, "and the Frenchman replied, "Well, my friend, the one thing that history will not say is that Belgium invaded Germany. "I think that in our genuine and right desire to do justice to the German point of view we must be careful that we do not do an injustice elsewhere.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Does the hon. Member mean that the British Government is not committed to what is known as the period of probation? I am not referring to the year which it takes in order to begin. I am referring to the extension of the year to four years, as it was proposed. Am I to take it that the British Government are not committed to that pronosal but are simply in process of negotiation and discussion?
Mr. EDEN: Certainly, in the process of negotiation. We were prepared to support it if it found support in the Conference. It did find a measure of support. The negotiations had reached a point when it seemed that several nations w ere prepared to accept something of that kind. I must emphasise the fact that

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since that negotiation has failed, of course, the Draft Convention still stands The attempt to secure agreement on amendments to enable the Conference to accept the draft Convention failed and we have to try and find, if we can, some other means.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: If you are not committed to the probationary period, it should be known that the British Government has not committed itself to the period of probation, apart from the year.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Why is the British Government alone to be committed?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We are dealing with the British Government, and it is vital to know whether the British Government is committed. If the British Government is not committed, there is no other Government committed except that of France.
Mr. EDEN: Do not let the right hon. Gentleman be under a misapprehension. We were working in an attempt to secure agreement and we had very great reason to believe that this lengthening of the period from one year to three or four years would have resulted in a full measure of agreement. Certainly, the record of the conversations given by my right hon. Friend to the Bureau of the Conference was approved by Italy, by France and by the United States, and we had reason to believe that we might secure agreement thereupon. Quite obviously, we have now got to consider the situation as it confronts us, and I think we are entitled to just the same liberty as any other Government must enjoy in like circumstances.
To turn from that question to answer a categorical question about supervision, let me be absolutely clear that the supervision which was intended should be applicable not only to Germany but to every other signatory to the Convention—
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: During the probationary period?
Mr. EDEN: Even during the probationary period. The right hon. Gentleman may ask what was to be done during the first period. I will not use the phrase "probation." During the first period what was to be done in regard to super-
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vision? From the very first there would be a stoppage of the production of those arms which in the Convention were to be destroyed. Therefore, no country signatory to the Convention, subsequent to the Convention, would continue to manufacture such arms. Therefore a truce was to be supervised in other countries in that respect, just as the conditions applied to Germany would have had to be supervised in Germany. There was no discrimination as to supervision. Do not let it be thought that only disarmament in the first period was to be done by Germany. It is true that Germany was to transform her Reichswehr into a conscript army. I do not know how much disarmament there was in that. There was a time when Germany demanded that she should be allowed to do that. At the same time that Germany was to do that and to transform her Reichswehr into a conscript army, other nations, France and other conscript nations, were to carry out their part of their transformation. I want the House to appreciate how much disarmament there was in that.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Intentional disarmament.
Mr. EDEN: I am dealing for the moment with the idea that no nation would do anything in the first period except Germany. If that had been accepted the length of service of all the conscript armies of Europe would have been reduced to eight months, which is virtually-the militia term of service. If you con, trast that with the three years' service just before the War by the conscript armies of France, I think it will be appreciated that there is in that a very real measure of disarmament. If we could have succeeded in reducing all the conscript armies of Europe to a virtually militia basis, we should have seen a real measure or disarmament.
The right hon. Gentleman said that ha had read my right hon. Friend's broadcast twice with very great care. If he had read it correctly once only he would have found that the right hon. Gentleman did in fact deal with this question of supervision of armaments. He said:
"In discussing this scheme, Germany stipulated, quite rightly, that the disarmament of the second stage must be all laid down in detail in the treaty itself, and that the supervision must be applied generally and not to one or two countries alone. With all that I quite agree, and I certainly

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thought that we were finding in our discussions a much closer approach to a possible basis of agreement than ever before."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That applies to the second stage.
Sir J. SIMON: No, it applies to the first period as well.
Mr. EDEN: It must be entirely clear to the right hon. Gentleman that supervision applied from the beginning. There was never any question about that.
Me. LLOYD GEORGE: All I said was that, to anyone reading without the declaration, that is what it meant. It is the Foreign Secretary who made the claim, at which I rejoice. That obviously, on the face of it, applies to the second period, and therefore anyone reading it without having this specific declaration would have come to that conclusion.
Mr. EDEN: I am quite convinced that, whatever the doubts of the right hon. Gentleman, the German Government had absolutely no doubt at all of the position. The German Government were fully aware that, if there were supervision, it would begin at once and everywhere. May I say a word about prospects? The fact is that we were recently engaged in that period of negotiation. At one time we hoped that the negotiation would succeed and result in an agreement acceptable to all. In this hope we have been disappointed; our negotiations railed, and our efforts have in a measure been spent in vain. I am afraid that is not a new experience to anybody engaged in disarmament negotiations. In truth, the last phase of these negotiations was not unlike others that have gone before. But that is not a cause for counsels of despair. We have got to try again. We have got to do so, if only because an agreement is the only alternative to an armaments race. We have to do so, because this Conference has become a great test of the capacity of nations to agree in consultation, and it is a test that cannot be allowed to fail.
One refreshing aspect of this Debate is that a policy of isolation has scarcely any friends. But if we do not intend this country to pursue a policy of isolation, we do not want to see any other country doing so either. We shall always regret to see a policy of isolation pursued by any nation, whether by this country,
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England, Germany, Russia, the United States—the world is too closely interdependent in these days for any of us to be able to afford these luxuries. That is one reason why we so much regret Germany's departure from the Disarmament Conference. We regret it because we wish to work in co-operation with Germany, as with all other nations, in friendship, and that task is not facilitated but complicated by Germany's departure from the Conference. We regret it also for, after all, it was largely British policy that played a part in securing Germany's entry into the League of Nations, and we hope that long before the two years are up that the notice will have been withdrawn.
In conclusion, may I say a word upon what perhaps might be done in this country to strengthen the League of Nations in a time of trial. I believe that the League will survive this trial, but it is a condition of its survival, an indispensable condition, that. we should assist in ensuring that the League of Nations and its future is not dragged into the party arena in this country. I fully understand, perhaps I may sympathise with, the temptation, when prolonged negotiations like these are taking place, to try and make a certain amount of party capital out of the failure of the Conference. Admittedly some mistakes are inevitable; in a two years' negotiation every Government has probably made them, and we certainly do not pretend to any immunity from them at all. I only ask that when these attacks are made those who make them should consider whether every word they utter is truly delivered in the interests of the League and in the cause of peace, or whether perhaps their darts are envenomed with hatred of His Majesty's Government. There is also this deep distinction between foreign and domestic policy. On the main issues of domestic policy the electorate is conscious of its ability to decide for itself, but in foreign affairs it necessarily relies, and is conscious of relying, on public men of all parties to guide them. Especially is this true of the complex issues of disarmament policy. Inevitably they must look for guidance to the leaders of all parties. To abandon that leadership and sink to the level of a camp follower is a responsibility which lies equally

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heavily on all parts of the House. Particularly is that true when the issue is peace or war. Peace is not an issue of party politics, and any attempt to make it so must fail because peace is the deep concern of every one of us. The country knows that, and knows that every party in the state regards peace not only as the need of the nation but of the civilisations of the world. I warn hon. Members opposite, although I do not flatter myself that they will listen to me, that if they try to persuade the country that the National Government in the midst of its task of re-creating Britain is turning aside to pursue a bloodstained phantom of war it is a hopeless attempt and one which will lead them to the universal and deserved contempt of their countrymen.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE
  (No. 2) BILL.
  Read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[Captain Margesson].
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Two Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

NORTHERN RHODESIA.
  VICTORIA FALLS AND TRANSVAAL POWER Company.
  VICTORIA FALLS AND TRANSVAAL POWER Company.
  NATIVE LABOUR (WAGES).
  NATIVE LABOUR (WAGES).
  SMALLHOLDINGS, SCOTLAND
  SMALLHOLDINGS, SCOTLAND
  FISH (IMPORTS)
  FISH (IMPORTS)

Preamble
Reassembling after the Summer Recess, the House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Saterford (E. Courtown)—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

ROAD AND RAIL TRAFFIC BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY): My Lords, it is just a year since the subject of competition between road and rail was debated in your Lordships' House. Your Lordships will remember that you then agreed to a Motion, moved by my noble and learned friend Lord Buckmaster, which called upon the Government to take legislative action without delay. On that occasion my noble friend Lord Plymouth, who spoke on behalf of the Government, explained the reasons which rendered it impossible, at that particular time, for the Government to give a definite undertaking to introduce legislation in the next Session, but he also made clear
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to your Lordships the deep concern of the Government and our full realisation of the need for dealing with this matter at the earliest possible opportunity. The Road and Rail Traffic Bill, which it is my duty to recommend to your Lordships for Second Reading to-day, was introduced in another place on the 7th of April last, and for fourteen days during the months of May, June and July was considered by a Standing Committee. It was presented to this House and read a first time on the 25th of July. I hope that your Lordships will that the Government have dealt with this matter in Government have dealt with this your Lordships' desire, as expeditiously as possible.
I need not weary your Lordships with any history of the rivalry between road and rail, which developed in the years after the War. Alike on the passenger and the goods side, the struggle threatened to become a national menace, and towards the end of 1928 His Majesty appointed a Royal Commission on Transport, under the able Chairmanship of Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen, and on that Commission, as your Lordships are aware, your Lordships' House was represented. The terms of reference to the Royal Commission were wide, and covered practically the whole field of inland transport and particularly the problem of the better co-ordination of the various forms of transport one with another. The second Report of the Royal Commission was published in

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October, 1929, and contained detailed recommendations regarding a system for licensing and regulating vehicles used for the purpose of carrying passengers by road. These recommendations were immediately adopted, almost without modification, in a Bill which subsequently received the Royal Assent in August, 1930, under the title of the Road Traffic Act. I think that the experience of the past two and a half years proves beyond doubt that the system of licensing for which that Act provides has gone far to remove the evils which it was designed to cure.
The final Report of the Royal Commission was presented in December, 1930. It included unanimous recommendations for the licensing of road vehicles carrying goods, with a view to the greater safety of users of the roads and the organisation of the road haulage business as an essential precedent to its co-ordination with other forms of transport. The Commissioners' recommendations provoked acute controversy. They were criticised in some quarters as going too far, and in others as not going far enough. There was wide divergence of opinion on the question of the proper functions of road and rail transport, and of the nature and extent of the regulation, which, in the economic development of to-day, should be applied to goods transport by road and rail. On these highly specialised questions the Government decided to seek the assistance of experts, and appointed a Conference consisting of the four chief officers of the main line railways and four persons experienced in the transport of goods by road, under the Chairmanship of Sir Arthur Salter, whose distinguished reputation as an economist is well known to your Lordships.
This Conference submitted in July, 1932, unanimous recommendations designed to assist both sides of the goods haulage industry to carry out their functions under equitable conditions, which were calculated adequately to safeguard the interests of trade and industry. In its application to public hauliers the Conference scheme aimed at dealing with what the Road Haulage Association has called "the evils of overcrowding and unbridled competition in the transport industry." They proposed accordingly that, while the ancillary user should be granted freely such licences as he might The Marquess of Londonderry.
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seek for the carriage of his own goods, subject to statutory conditions, the licensing authority would not be required to grant those sought by public hauliers, if the grant would be against the public interest, it being considered that existing transport facilities suitable to meet the public requirements to be served by the applicant were already sufficient.
Your Lordships will find that the Bill which is before your Lordships now gives effect to this principle. I think I should add for your Lordships' information that the recommendations of the Conference do not conflict with the recommendations of the Royal Commission in so far as they relate to the subject of the present Bill. But on the question of the licensing of goods vehicles the Conference went further than the Royal Commission. The Royal Commission proposed to deal only with vehicles used for the carriage of goods for hire or reward, while the Salter Conference were unanimous in recommending that the system of licensing should embrace all vehicles used for the carriage of goods, including those used by persons who own vehicles as ancillary to their commercial undertakings When I say that it is estimated that 75 to 80 per cent. of the total number of vehicles are so used, the inclusion of these vehicles is obviously necessary if adequate control of the situation is to be taken. This measure is thus based at many points upon the recommendations of the Royal Commission, but in a number of important respects follows the more comprehensive recommendations of the Conference.
What, my Lords, quite briefly are the grounds for introducing a licensing scheme I Before the introduction of the licensing system for public passenger vehicles, the position was, by general admission, largely one of complete chaos. In many areas there was no licensing control of public passenger vehicles, with the result that many vehicles quite unfitted to carry passengers were running on our roads. Competition between road operators led to racing and other undesirable practices. It was carried to such lengths that the financial position of many of the operators became unsound. Parliament then realised that in the matter of passenger transport the public does not gain, but rather loses by competitive services, when that competition

5
results in the inadequate maintenance of vehicles, in the cutting of rates, and in the lowering of the conditions of employment of the drivers. In passing, it may be added that congestion of the roads involves unnecessary expenditure which falls heavily upon the ratepayer.
Under the scheme of licensing set up by the Act of 1930, the passenger services have been brought to a high state of efficiency and regularity. Road operators now enjoy a stabilised position, and recognise increasingly that they form one of our great public utility services. Much has been done by this means to relieve the congestion of the towns through which the coaches pass, and a beginning, at any rate, has been made towards coordination between the road operators and the railway companies, who have themselves become interested to a substantial extent in some of the most important road companies.
There are equally strong reasons for introducing a general scheme for the licensing of goods vehicles. In their recommendation to this effect the Royal Commission explained that they were influenced by two main considerations. First, they believed that it would be greatly to the advantage of the road haulage industry itself if it were placed on an organised basis Secondly, they were of the opinion that the organisation of the industry is an essential precedent to any attempt at general co-ordination with other forms of transport. The Government agree with these views, which received the support of the Salter Conference.
It is, I regret to say, notorious that in many respects the existing law is not observed whether, fess example, it be in the matter of speed or in the hours of driving. It is difficult for the Police Force to exercise the necessary supervision in these matters, unless they are given the additional assistance of some special machinery for dealing with what is not an ordinary police problem. Even when cases are taken to the Courts, the fines inflicted are either negligible or such that the offender finds that it will pay him better to meet them and continue to ignore the restrictions. He thus gains a quite unfair and illegitimate advantage over his competitors, whether they be the railway companies or other law-abiding
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road operators. The Government have come to the conclusion that compliance with the provisions of the existing law relating to the maintenance of vehicles in a fit condition and to the restrictions upon excessive speeds and excessive hours of driving, can only be effectively secured if offenders are made liable to lose their right to go upon the roads at all.
As I shall explain in a moment, we propose to establish a body of special examiners of goods vehicles and to adopt the recommendation, which the Salter Conference regarded as essential, to require operators to carry records which will show the weight of the load carried, the time spent on the various journeys and the hours during which the driver is kept on duty. We attach very great importance to the provisions of the Bill which are designed to take this new, much-needed, and, as we hope it will be, effective control over goods transport by road.
It will, I think, be convenient to your Lordships if I now pass to the clauses of the Bill itself and explain its provisions without going into too great detail. At the same time, I shall endeavour to make clear its essential proposals and to point out any matters in which the provisions differ materially from the recommendations of the two bodies to whom the Government are greatly indebted for having so ably and carefully examined the problems remitted to them. The objects of this Bill then arc, first, to establish a system for the licensing and regulation of motor goods vehicles. This is dealt with in Part I of the Bill. Secondly, the railway companies, under Part II of the Bill, are authorised to charge "flat" or "composite" rates, subject to the approval of the Railway Rates Tribunal. The existing law in regard to the regulation of railways is also amended in certain minor respects. Finally, in Part III, following the unanimous recommendations of both the Royal Commission and the Conference, it is proposed to establish a Transport Advisory Council.
Part I of the Bill divides carriers into three main classes; the private carrier, who carries only for the purpose of his own trade or business; the public carrier, who carries goods for hire or reward; and a further class, the limited carrier, who carries for the purpose of

7
his own trade or business and also for hire or reward. For the private carrier we propose a licence with a three years currency, for the public carrier one with two years, and for the limited carrier, whose position presents problems of a special character, we propose an annual licence. The Royal Commission, as I have already reminded your Lordships, contemplated the licensing only of hauliers, while the Salter Conference proposed also the licensing of ancillary users, a category which was to include not only those who carried merely for the purpose of their own trade or business, but also those who carried for hire within a ten mile radius.
Clause 1 provides that it shall not be lawful for any person to use a motor goods vehicle on a road for the purpose of carrying goods for hire or reward or for the purpose of trade or business unless the use of the vehicle is either authorised by a licence or is exempted from the licensing system. I will not trouble your Lordships with all the details of the proposed exemptions from licensing. They include those agricultural vehicles whose restricted use qualifies them for the reduced rates of taxation under the Finance Acts, public service passenger vehicles carrying parcels, and vehicles used for certain local authority or police services. The basis of those exemptions is that these employments form no part of the problem which the scheme is designed to meet. Besides the exemptions from licensing, there are certain exceptions which enable a private carrier to undertake work which might be deemed to be "carrying goods for hire or reward."
Your Lordships will wish to know something of the proposed licensing procedure. It is proposed that the licensing authorities shall be the Chairmen of the Traffic Commissioners who are charged with the duties of licensing public service passenger vehicles under the Road Traffic Act. An application for an A or B licence is to be made to the licensing authority of the particular area in which is the permanent base or centre from which the vehicles will normally be used. In the case of a C licence, the area is that in which the applicant has his head office or principal place of business. I take first the simple case of the private carrier or C licence for the man who will use the authorised vehicles for the
8
carriage of goods in connection with any trade or business carried on by him, but for no other purpose. The applicant has merely to supply the licensing authority with the number and description of the vehicles for which a licence is sought. The application is automatically granted, because the licensing authority has no discretion in the matter unless the applicant is the holder of a licence which has been suspended or revoked, nor is he required to publish notice of the application, and no opportunity is provided for objections. The C licence is for a period of three years.
I now come to the A (public carrier) and B (limited carrier) licences. The public carrier or A licence relates to the man who proposes to use the vehicles for the carriage of goods for hire or reward and in connection with his business as a carrier but, in general, for no other purpose, while the limited carrier or B licence will be required by the man who wishes to use vehicles for the carriage of goods, either in connection with any trade or business carried on by him, or for hire or reward. The applicant for an A or B licence has to inform the licensing authority of the number and description of the vehicles proposed to be used and also the facilities which he proposes to provide. If he applies within a stated period and can satisfy the licensing authority that during the twelve months ended March 31 of this year, he owned and used goods vehicles, he will be entitled to receive from the licensing authority a licence authorising an equivalent tonnage to that used by him at any one time during those twelve months. This means that the applicant will be able to continue to provide the same facilities, for two years if he is a holder of an A licence and for one year if he holds a B licence.
In the case of other applications for A or B licences, the licensing authority must publish a notice of the applications made and must consider, at a public inquiry if he thinks fit, any objections that he may receive from persons who oppose the grant of an application. Objections may he made on two grounds. First, that adequate and suitable facilities already exist; secondly, that the applicant has failed to observe some condition attached to a licence held by him. Only holders of an A licence are entitled to oppose an application for an

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A licence, although both holders of A or B licences may object to an application for a B licence. Having considered the application and any objections the licensing authority has complete discretion whether to grant or refuse the application.
When a licence is granted, certain conditions must be attached to it. Your Lordships will find these set out in Clause 8, and will observe that they require that authorised vehicles shall be maintained in a serviceable condition; that the law regarding speed and loading shall be complied with; that the holder of the licence shall observe the provisions of the Road Traffic Act relating to the time for which drivers may remain continuously on duty; that certain records shall be kept, and further, in the case of every A or B licence, that the fair wages and conditions of service provisions of the 1930 Act shall apply. So far as A or C licences are concerned, the licensing authority will have no power to attach any other condition. As regards B licences, however, it will be within the discretion of the authority to attach conditions regarding the use which may be made of the vehicle; for example, he may attach a condition that the vehicle shall be used only in a specified district, or for the carriage of certain classes or descriptions of goods, or for certain specified persons only.
Your Lordships will see that the holder of an A licence has an advantage over the holder of a B licence both as to the period of the licence (two years as opposed to one) and as to the special conditions which may he imposed. This is the deliberate intention of the Bill and is designed to recognise the different position of the provider of regular transport facilities by road, as opposed to the person who offers more or less haphazard facilities and uses his vehicles for his own trade or business. After carefully considering the matter, in the light of the representations made to them, the Government have come to the conclusion that it would not be expedient to apply in the case of the C licence granted to the private carrier, a provision relating to fair wages and conditions of service. We recognise, of course, the necessity of safeguarding, so far as possible, the interests of public safety and of guarding against the risks.
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inherent in the driving of a vehicle by a tired man; but, from this point of view, as your Lordships will remember, Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, already lays down maximum working hours for drivers employed by the holders of A, B and C licences alike.
It may appear logical to treat C licences in the same way as A and B licences in respect of the fair wages provision, on the ground that the occupation of the worker is the same, but the two cases are in reality governed by widely different conditions. In the road haulage industry proper, transport workers constitute the principal grade of workpeople employed, whilst in other industries transport is an occupation ancillary to the main business of the industry which is carried on by the great majority of the workpeople. The traditional method of fixing wages and conditions in the different industries in this country is a voluntary system of collective bargaining, which has been developed in the course of many years and which, on the whole, works satisfactorily. The fair wages provision, on the other hand, introduces a different principle, and it is apprehended that the element of compulsion which it embodies could not be introduced into the existing voluntary system without risk of disturbing the network of industrial agreements which now covers a great part of the industrial field.
That is the view of the Government, and indeed it is obvious that wages and conditions in an industry require to be fixed in relation to the general circumstances of the industry, and that complications may arise if the wages and conditions of one grade of the workpeople in an industry are not kept in proper relationship with the wages and conditions of the other grades. An arrangement under which the wages and conditions of the transport workers in an industry were subject to compulsory arbitration whilst those of the rest of the workpeople continued to be regulated by the existing voluntary system might raise these difficulties in an acute form. Apart from this consideration, serious practical difficulties would arise in connection with small employers, and also some large employers, whose workpeople are often employed for part of the time as transport workers and for the rest of

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the time in other occupations. It is admitted even by those in favour of attaching the fair wages provision to C licences that an exception would have to be made to meet the case of employers who owned not inure than, say, three vehicles. Such an exception would, however, produce anomalies which could hardly be removed unless the fair wages provision were so hedged about with exceptions and qualifications that it would become almost impossible to enforce and practically worthless as a protection to the great body of workpeople or the haulage industry itself.
Strong representations have been made to my honourable friend on behalf of a large number of important industries which employ transport workers as an ancillary grade, and after giving full weight to the counter-representations of the trade unions, he has reached the conclusion that, in all the circumstances, the fair wages provision ought to be imposed only on the holders of A and B licences, leaving the wages and conditions of transport workers employed by C licence holders to be regulated for the present in the same way as the wages and conditions of the rest of the workpeople.
I propose now to return for a few moments to the conditions which must be attached to all licences. If your Lordships will go back to Clause 8 of the Bill these conditions will be found in subsection (1). They are designed to secure the safety of all users of the highway, and may properly be described as "safety" conditions. First comes the requirement that vehicles shall be kept in a fit and serviceable condition. It is not the intention of the scheme that every vehicle shall be examined periodically, as is the case with public service vehicles, but there will be a body of examiners who, on production of their authority, will have power to examine any vehicle in order to test whether the requirement is being observed. The examiner may examine the vehicle in the garage or on the road, but he is given no power to stop a vehicle in motion. If he considers it to be in a dangerous condition he will be empowered either to prohibit the use of the vehicle or to give the owner a limited time up to ten days in which to remedy defects if he considers that they are not such as involve immediate risk to public safety. If an owner is aggrieved by the
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refusal of an examiner to remove a prohibition, he may have the vehicle inspected by a certifying officer appointed under the Road Traffic Act and if, in turn, the certifying officer declines to remove the prohibition, the owner is given the right to appeal to the Minister.
The second safety condition relates to speed and loading—both matters which your Lordships have discussed on a number of occasions. The condition does not involve any new regulations; its object is to provide a means of enforcing existing law by utilising the services of the examiners and to prevent as far as possible the driving of overloaded vehicles at excessive speeds. Similarly, the third condition, relating to the time during which a driver may drive continuously, is to secure that existing law is respected and observed. Lastly, there is the condition that certain records shall be kept regarding the hours worked by drivers and the journeys taken and the loads carried.
A considerable volume of criticism has been directed to this condition. It has been said the keeping of records will impose an intolerable burden upon the holders of licences and that the records themselves will be useless. Nothing is further removed from fact, as I hope to be able to show in a few words. First, the records will not contain any information different from that which is required for the purpose of any reasonably organised business. Even the smallest operator wants to know the hours for which he has to pay his driver, the journeys which the driver has made and the goods which he has carried. On the form which the record is to take the Minister is required to consult the Transport Advisory Council, upon which road users are well represented. Nevertheless if, in fact, there are practical difficulties in particular cases, the licensing authority is given the discretion to dispense with the requirements, or any of them, of the regulations which will be made in this matter. But there is even greater justification for requiring these records to be kept, since they will themselves supply the evidence upon which it can be decided whether the law is observed or flouted. The examiners and the police will have power to demand the production of any of the records that are carried on the vehicle or kept elsewhere. All records must be preserved for at least

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six months and for a further period not exceeding six months if the licensing authority or the police so require.
Failure to comply with these conditions is made an offence, for which the penalty is a fine. In the case of the driving of a vehicle, the use of which has been prohibited because of some dangerous defect, the penalty is either a fine or imprisonment or both; this is the only offence for which the Bill provides imprisonment, but I do not think that your Lordships will consider that in the circumstances that penalty is too great. In addition to the penalties prescribed in the Bill, however, there is still another, and it is one which possibly your Lordships, will be inclined to regard as having an even greater deterrent effect than fines. It is proposed to give the licensing authority power to revoke or suspend a licence on the ground that any of the conditions attached to it have not been complied with. Before the authority can take this action, however, he must he satIfied—after holding a public inquiry, if the holder of the licence requests him so to do—that the penalty is merited by the frequency or wilfulness of the breach of conditions or by the danger to the public involved. It is possible that there are operators who would be prepared to take the risk of a conviction and the payment of a fine, but I venture to think that there are few who would not hesitate long before deliberately risking the licence upon which their livelihood is so largely dependent.
There is, perhaps, one other point to which I should refer before passing from this Part of the Bill—namely, the provisions relating to appeals by holders of licences from decisions of the licensing authorities. In the case of passenger road services, there had for many years before the passing of the Road Traffic Act been a right of appeal to the Minister against the decision of a local council acting as a licensing authority: and when the licensing duties were transferred by the Road Traffic Act to the newly created Traffic Commissioners, Parliament, while widening the Tight of appeal, retained the appellate position of the Minister. In the licensing of goods vehicles we are entering an entirely new field and Bill proposes a separate tribunal to hear appeals against the decisions of the licensing authority. The Tribunal will consist of three members, of whom one—
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the Chairman—will be a lawyer appointed after consultation with the Lord Chancellor, and the other two will be appointed after consultation with the President of the Board of Trade and the Secretary of State for Scotland. The Tribunal will make their own rules; their decisions will be final; and they will have power to award costs. I might add, for the information of those of your Lordships who may be interested, that appeals from decisions of licensing authorities in Scotland will be heard in Scotland.
I come now to the railway side of the problem, as to which our proposals are contained in Part II of the Bill. It has been urged in some quarters that equalisation of the condition of the competition between road and rail might be brought about not by ally increased regulation of road traffic but by some relaxation of the regulation of the railways. Many of your Lordships have no doubt read and heard the oft-repeated assertion that the difficulties of our railway companies are due in large measure to the mass of statutory restrictions under which the railway managements labour. The Salter Conference, while it recognised that the system grew up in a period when the railway companies were enjoying a large monopoly, took the view that a considerable measure of uniformity, and consequently of regulation, was an inevitable concomitant to the organisation of an industry in large units and that this handicap could not be substantially reduced by any change in law or administration. All this notwithstanding, the Government considered that any comprehensive measure for dealing with transport problems should afford relief from any existing restrictions upon the railway companies which could be shown to be burdensome or unnecessary in the circumstances of to-day. Accordingly, the Minister of Transport invited the railway companies themselves and the leading trade organisations of the country to say which, if any, of the existing statutory provisions regarding railway rates and charges or railway facilities constituted in their view an unnecessary and undesirable restriction upon the operations of the railway companies and could, without detriment to the public interest be removed or modified. The

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response in the way of specific suggestion was disappointing.
Meanwhile, a situation arose which called for action. As your Lordships are aware, the charges made by railway companies for the conveyance of traffic on their railways are governed by the Railways Act, 1921. Each description of merchandise traffic is included in a classification in which there are twenty-one classes, and a standard scale of charge per ton per mile is fixed in respect of each class. This is the "standard rate," which the railway companies must charge except in so far as they quote exceptional rates, lower than the standard rates; but exceptional rates, if less than 5 per cent. or more than 40 per cent below the corresponding standard rates, have to be submitted to the Railway Rates Tribunal for approval.
Towards the end of last year the Railway Rates Tribunal gave an important decision in what has become known as the Robinson case. A railway company had sought approval to the granting, as an exceptional rate, of a flat rate to be applied to all traffic of a particular firm within a defined area, irrespective of distance. The Tribunal held that such an arrangement was not admissible under the Railways Act as it involved a complete departure from the basis of charging per ton per mile. They accordingly had no alternative but to reject the application for approval. This decision, which was upheld by the Court of Appeal, obviously hampers the railways in competing for traffic with other forms of transport, which are at liberty to charge on whatever basis they think fit, and the railway companies accordingly asked the Government to amend the law so that they might be enabled to quote on a flat or composite basis.
The Government came to the conclusion that under proper safeguards—and there are ample safeguards in the clause—such a system would be to the advantage both of the railway companies and of traders, and that the companies and their customers should be allowed to arrange the basis of charge according to mutual convenience so long as each arrangement was subject to the approval of the Railway Rates Tribunal. This decision has been embodied in Clause 31 of the Bill. In the course of examination of the clause in another place the safeguards for the traders have been strengthened, and
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I think I may say that the clause in its present form is generally regarded as fair and reasonable, while at the same time it will accord to the railway companies freedom to adjust their methods of charging to present conditions and the requirements of their customers.
Before I leave this matter, in view of certain criticisms which have appeared lately, I should like particularly to emphasise to your Lordships the very important protection which the clause gives to the private trader who considers that his business has been or will be detrimentally affected by an agreed charge. Not only may he lodge an objection to any proposed flat rate which he considers injurious to him, but he may also apply to the Tribunal to fix a charge for the carriage of his own merchandise, if it is the same merchandise as, or similar merchandise to, the merchandise to which the agreed charge relates. He can also at a subsequent date ask the Tribunal to review any agreed charge which he can show is operating to his detriment.
The position of harbour authorities and coastwise shipping has also been specially taken into account. Clause 33, which deals with the position of coastwise shipping, has been accepted by the Chamber of Shipping, and the railway companies, while disclaiming any intention of using their powers unfairly or oppressively, have acquiesced in its terms. I am happy to add that the canal authorities and the railway companies, as the result of mutual discussion, have also reached an agreement for consultation and co-operation among themselves. I will now pass on to Part III of the Bill without making a specific mention of certain minor amendments of the existing law, which will, we hope, afford the railway companies a certain measure of relief from some of the less important requirements of existing statutes.
Part I deals with the carriage of goods by motor vehicles and Part II with certain railway questions. These are in a sense separate problems, but they are all inter-connected in the great question of transport. That great question of transport involves many other classes of the community beside the road haulier and the railway company. I have already referred, incidentally, to docks, canals and coastwise shipping; but we

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must not for one moment lose sight of other important classes of road traffic, the pedestrian, the cyclist and the horse-drawn traffic. The local authorities responsible for the maintenance of the roads have a large interest in all questions relating to the use of the roads; and organised labour is necessarily concerned in all those matters which involve the rights or duties of the transport worker. Behind all these stand the vast trading interests of the country (including those of the important industry of agriculture), for the movement of whose goods and products transport exists.
For these reasons, following the recommendations of the
Royal Commission, endorsed by the Salter Conference, we propose, in Part III, a Transport Advisory Council, representative of all the interests which I have named, to assist the Minister in his continuing duty of watching and facilitating the improvement and development, along sound lines, of the transport system of this country. We do not claim that the proposals which we are now submitting to you represent a final solution of all these difficult problems; but in the confident opinion that they represent a substantial contribution to the advancement of the public safety and convenience and of a better and more economical organisation of our inland transport, we ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Road and Rail Traffic Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, this Bill, which is most certainly needed, has had a very quiet passage through the House of Commons, where it was steered with great skill and tact by the Minister of Transport. I think we are fortunate here this afternoon in having the very complex provisions of this Bill so clearly explained by the noble Marquess who has just sat down. The noble Marquess had two great handicaps. In the first place, he was speaking for a Department for which he himself is not responsible, and, in the second place, he was commending this measure to your Lordships' House, your Lordships having abolished the Ministry of Transport, I think only a few months ago From what I gather, some of your Lordships seem to nave forgotten that fact, but a Motion was
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most decidedly passed in this House abolishing the Ministry of Transport.
We on this side of the House welcome this measure up to a point, but we regret that it has not gone further. We regret that the great opportunity for a national co-ordination of the transport services has not been carried out in full measure. This transport problem is occupying our attention very closely just now. We could quite easily be distracted from the main purpose of this Bill by discussions on safety, which really come under the Bill, but as the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, has a special Motion down for next week we shall have an opportunity then of discussing more closely the question of safety. But safety does arise under this Bill; in fact one of the most important objects of the Bill is to render the roads safe; and we in looking at this Bill are concerned also about the men who are employed with the machines. We are concerned more especially about the human factor, and we want to see the provisions fairly carried out so that the people who have the great responsibilities of driving these heavy vehicles on the public roads may be properly safeguarded in their work.
I wish now to touch only on a few points of the Bill where we desire amendment or where we are inclined to suggest criticism. I was very sorry to hear the noble Marquess express the decision of the Minister of Transport not to allow the fair wages clause to be applied under the Bill to drivers of vehicles who receive C licences. I think that he was inclined to describe the holders of C licences as if they were an entirely different category, as if their work was on entirely different lines to those of the holders of A and B licences. To begin with I would remind the noble Marquess that in the Salter Report, to which he has referred, it is stated:
"We consider that both hauliers and ancillary users should be subject to regulation, enforced through the grant of licences, as regards fair wages and conditions of service and the maintenance of their vehicles in a state of fitness."
That is to say, that Conference did recommend that the fair wages clause should be extended to the drivers having C licences. There is really not any difference in the work of the drivers employed by general hauliers and a great proportion of those employed by ancillary

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users, and we are dealing here not with a small or negligible proportion, but with 75 per cent. of the men that come under this Bill.
I would call your Lordships' attention to the fact that general hauliers contract to supply vehicles in large fleets, or singly, to firms who are ancillary users. The employees of the general hauliers will, therefore, be working alongside the employees of the ancillary users and doing precisely the same work. General hauliers sometimes contract to supply all the vehicles required by a certain undertaking, while another undertaking in the same industry will decide for reasons of its own to run its own vehicles. Again, in both instances, the employment will be the same, but the conditions of the licences under which the vehicles run will not be the same. I think that this is an unsatisfactory state of affairs. It is not a matter of a small tradesman here and there with a motor vehicle which he is sending out from his shop. The vehicles which come under the other category are used for iron and steel, for ballast, for building, for constructional engineering, for cement, sand and gravel, and for quarrying. These are the larger vehicles. They are precisely the same in character as the A licensed vehicles, but under the Bill as at present drafted the drivers will not have the same opportunity of getting fair wages. A question of public safety certainly is involved in seeing that a man has a decent wage. It is also very necessary that the men should not be worked in such a way as to have their work on the vehicle supplemented by long hours at a different sort of employment. As a matter of fact, a great many or them will be simply used for purposes of hauling and really ought to be treated in a similar way to those that come under the A and B licences.
There is this further point which I should hope the Ministry of Transport would take into account. I refer to the absence of any statutory or voluntary machine for the regulation of wages and conditions in the whole of the goods transport industry. That would appear to be wanted. There ought to be some national organisation for the general regulation of wages and conditions. I rather understand that the Minister of Transport has the matter under consideration, and that if it is not accorded
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in this Bill it is likely to be accorded at a later date; but it would seem to be necessary to do it at the present time in order that by means of a national, central authority you can get control of some of the anomalies and some of the very undesirable elements which exist in the present system. There are payments which very likely require to be abolished, such as trip money, tonnage money, mileage bonus and inducements to drivers to break, if they can, surreptitiously, the law and the regulations. All these matters should be gone into and the Minister of Transport should have the power through some central authority to regulate matters such as those.
I now come to a provision which I consider to be of very great importance but which is not contained in the Bill, and on this point I hope to enlist the sympathy of those noble Lords who, on various occasions, have shown themselves most desirous to enforce regulations which will ensure safety on the roads. The provision which I desire to see is one for the issue of special licences for the drivers of goods vehicles. The driving of goods vehicles is a most difficult job when one considers the size of some of these vehicles. It is a highly-skilled job and it really requires more skill than is needed by the driver of a locomotive on the railway which has set lines and signals. Only last week I saw one of those gigantic eight-wheeled vehicles being driven across the High Street of Winchester which is a good deal narrower than this Chamber. If the driver had not been extremely skilful he would certainly have done a lot of damage to people on the pavement and in the street. This is a highly-skilled matter and unless we get people who are up to the work from the point of view of driving we shall continue to have a number of accidents. A special licence ought to be issued in addition to the ordinary driving licence. That is the case with passenger service vehicles and we consider that it ought to be the case with the drivers of goods vehicles. There is no difference whatever. It is true that the passenger vehicle contains passengers, but the man who is driving a heavy goods vehicle can be such a danger on the road as to be a menace to the lives, not only of pedestrians, but of people in passenger vehicles and private motor cars.

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I believe that the Government are making inquiry into the whole question of tests for drivers. In your Lordships' House I have spoken against tests for drivers of motors cars, but I think this is a different matter. After all, the driver of a private car can stop in bad weather. He can stop and he can go to the nearest inn or hotel or lodgings. He can do what he likes. He is a free man. But the driver of a heavy goods vehicle is obliged to go on. He has his schedule, he has his orders, he has his destination to reach, and he is not allowed to do what he likes. Therefore: he really comes in a different category and he should be given a special licence. That would be welcomed by the Transport Workers' Union and labour in general, because it would mean that these specially licensed men would set up a high standard on the road which would be likely to be followed by others. I believe some difficulties are suggested with regard to the manner in which you should test these men and give them licences, but under the Road Traffic Act, and with the money which comes from the issue of licences, there should be no difficulty in setting up a, training school. Neither would there be any practical difficulties in establishing this special-licence system as a prospective practice, allowing those who are established drivers at present to have these special licences, with a provision that anybody coming in as a driver of such vehicles in future should be tested before he could obtain a licence.
I did not hear the noble Marquess refer to a very important point which was raised in another place—a point not only raised by the Opposition hut given a very great deal of support from all quarters of the House. That was the question of a driver taking his rest actually away from his vehicle. I do not think I need enlarge on the point. My noble friend who is going to take part in the debate later has many instances to show how necessary it is that "rest" should mean rest away from the vehicle. All I need do is to remind your Lordships of what the Minister of Transport said in the debate on the Report stage in another place, after he had listened to the debate on Report as well as in Committee and had been, as he admitted, greatly impressed. I do not think I need read any lengthy quotation from his remarks. It is sufficient to say that, although he
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made no actual promise, I think his words might be interpreted to mean that he was going to consider the question with a view to finding a suitable provision. The Minister said:
"… I am alarmed at a possible expansion of the double-bunk system, and I will certainly consider whether an Amendment can be inserted in another place on the lines suggested to meet the point."
I may have missed a passage in the speech of the noble Marquess in which he dealt with that point but I think he did not refer to the matter. I hope that the Minister who replies for the Government will satisfy us on this side of the House that that point has been met by an Amendment which will be introduced by the Government next week.
There is another question to which I want to draw the attention of the Government and that has reference to variation of the Orders made by the Ministry of Transport. At present variations are allowed under Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act and they have not been found to work satisfactorily. Members of a joint conference of employers and workers have, I think, conveyed to the Ministry of Transport their view that in regard to Orders made by the Ministry to secure variations adapted to meet the differing circumstances of passenger transport throughout the country it was impossible that Orders could be issued by the Ministry to cover all cases. A suggestion was made that some alternative machinery should be instituted for dealing with this problem and that the Minister should take steps to secure power to implement agreements which had been made between the representatives of organised labour and the representatives of undertakings engaged in road passenger transport—subject, of course, to such review as he might deem necessary to ensure that the public interest is served and public safety protected. It is necessary that there should be variations. What is known as the spread-over has, in some cases, not been arranged in such a manner as to be fair to the workers. It has been found that there have been reductions in the number of straight duties—that is to say, consecutive duties—and a substantial increase in broken periods of duty with long and objectionable spread-overs. Allowing these agreements between the employers and the workers to lay down

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what variations may be necessary in certain districts, and in certain circumstances to get these variations confirmed by the Ministry of Transport, seems to be the sensible way of dealing with it, and I hope the Government will consider that point.
There is one other matter. We regard the Bill all the way through from the point of view of safeguarding the interests of the people working in this industry and we feel they must be amply safeguarded in this new, untried, arduous and in some ways dangerous work. Attention has been called to the fact that a large group of omnibus operators, the Tilling-B.A.T. group adopt the attitude that their employees should not be members of a trade union and, where they are, the companies in this group refuse to recognise or to negotiate with the unions acting for the men. Whatever prejudice there may be against trade unions in your Lordships' House I am sure your Lordships will unite in thinking that that is an unfair attitude. Considering the complexities of the law, the difficulty of realising what makes a man liable, in what circumstances a man may be convicted, how it is possible in circumstances not under his control or within his knowledge that a man may have his licence taken away and his employment lost for life—that a man in such circumstances, working all day long and unable to go into the intricacies of Acts of Parliament and regulations should not have the opportunity of being represented by those who make it their business to study the matter and safeguard the men, seems to me most unfair. I hope the Government will take this point into account.
We shall use the Committee stage for pressing the Amendment with regard to rests away from the vehicle. I am sure we shall get a great deal of support in the House on that point, and I hope the Government will yield on it. We shall press again for the fair wages clause to be applied to the C licences and there may be one or two other points on which we shall put down Amendments. But in general we regard this Bill as greatly wanted and, indeed, overdue. We only regret that the Government have been so timid and frightened of their supporters as not to go the whole way and get a really rational central authority which would deal with the whole question.
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Nationalisation is a sort of bogey word which frightens people and yet at the same time the tendency is to go more and more in that direction nowadays and it is only in that direction, with a great and growing industry of this sort, that it is possible to get satisfactory control.
In another place Mr. Winston Churchill was quoted as a supporter of the nationalisation of railways. I do not think that would carry much weight with the Government. Mr. Thomas, the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, has also supported nationalisation of railways, and I have a quotation here which puts the Socialist point of view in this connection extremely well:
"The Socialist view of the enfranchised and responsible workman is the only view which supplies a true answer to the dominant question of the time: how can we supply a motive for work which will enlist the whole man and not only part of the man? The feature of these schemes is that bureaucracy is eliminated and that the administration of industry, whilst not brought outside the ultimate responsibility of the civic State, is to be a task conducted by a specialised organisation built up not from officials appointed from outside, but from officials and functionaries drawn from the working organisation itself and belonging to it. There is organisation, a better organisation than that of Capitalism, there is centralised knowledge radiating downwards, but the whole scheme is the very antithesis of bureaucracy because it depends for its success upon the co-operation of every person and group of persons employed, and is conscious and responsible right from bottom to top. Orders are executed and a mechanism is worked, but the orders come from the system itself and the mechanism belongs to the whole thing as a going co-operative concern."
That passage, which is very well put, is from the Prime Minister, and I think the Government have made a mistake in not adopting the Prime Minister's former views on this occasion and in taking his later views. They have missed an opportunity and have nibbled at this question instead of attacking it with some sort of courage. What there is in the Bill may do good and I hope it will. We look forward to its passage and we hope it may yet be tightened up in certain respects. Its timidity has been the fault, but perhaps there is yet time for some of the fault to be corrected.
THE MARQUESS OF BEADING: My Lords, I hope it will not be expected in this debate that we shall follow the noble Lord in the last part of his speech, with

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its reference to the Prime Minister, which is introducing a subject not strictly relevant, although I agree there was an opening for the criticism that came from the noble Lord. I rise merely to say that those associated with me gladly welcome this Bill. It is a step helping in the co-ordination, improvement and development of road and railway traffic and, without entering into detail now, we propose to support the Second Reading. All I need say for those associated with me is that we are very interested in what was aptly termed the human aspect and we shall be desirous of doing everything that can be done to safeguard that aspect.
With regard to the C licence, I understand that the fair wage part of the Bill is net to apply. That is what I gathered from my noble friend who explained the Bill, to whom we are grateful for his exposition of this difficult and complicated measure. Those who might not have read the Bill or the debates would have understood just where we were with regard to the main provisions and I presume that is what a Second Reading speech in opening a Bill should be. I will not go further save to say that, although the special provisions of the so-called fair wage clause which is to be introduced under this measure will not apply to C licences, and only applies to licences A and B, nevertheless it follows that all the ordinary provisions of the common or statute law will apply to men employed under licence C. There is nothing in the Bill, as I understand it, which in the slightest degree interferes with the application of the general law to those men. All that it does is to draw a distinction between licences A and B and licence C, in this respect, that it says that in licence C we do not introduce special provisions as regards fair wages, but leave the men employed to the ordinary law. As I understand, the vital difference between those three licences is that licence C, which has been termed a private licence, is a licence granted to the owners of goods who wish to deliver and collect them in the ordinary course of trade or business, and the other two licences both relate, one in whole and the other in part, to the business of haulage. I imagine that the one thing to be borne in mind is that licence C is to be granted to a man who is going
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to deal entirely with his own goods and not attempt to apply for hire. For that reason it seems to me, subject to anything which may be said in the course of debate, that there is good reason for making this distinction as regards licence C.
I do not propose to take up your Lordships' time by discussing the details of the measure, for the reason that we on these Benches are heartily in support of the Bill, and will wait to deal with points of detail if they come up during the Committee stage. There is, however, one point to which I wish to draw the attention of the Government in regard to this Bill, and I shall be glad if the noble Marquess will give me his attention for one moment. I only raise the point now because it will have to be raised at some time in Committee, and I wish to give notice of it. It is a matter which has engaged attention, and I press the Government to deal with it. Licence C, as I have said, is called the private licence, and is defined—I am not saying that "defined" is the strict term to be applied, but the language which is used in the Bill makes it quite clear that it is to apply to a person who has sold goods in the ordinary course of trade or business. It extends a little further than that, but I will not trouble your Lordships with it because it is not necessary for the purpose I have in mind. What is "a person"? That is the real difficulty which must be confronted.
Take for example a limited company carrying on business. It is legally "a person." It is a legal entity. Now that company is the owner of goods and no difficulty will arise in the first instance; but assume that that company has a number of subsidiary companies. The shares in those subsidiary companies are owned entirely by the company I first mentioned. That head company is the owner of goods, strictly speaking, not only belonging to the head company but also of goods belonging to the subsidiary companies, but the legal entity with regard to a subsidiary company is the subsidiary company, and the owner is not the head company but the subsidiary company. It surely cannot be intended that difficulties are to be placed in the way of business by making different licences necessary for each of these companies. Let me take company A, a head

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company, owning 100 per cent. of the capital of companies B, C, D, E and F. In ordinary parlance, and strict truth, company A is the owner of all the goods of the subsidiary companies, hut according to the Bill it would not be, and that point requires attention, because it would make a great difference to those carrying on business under the Joint Stock Acts.
Although no conclusion was reached on the matter in the other House, I have reason to think that a different view may be taken by the Government in this House. All I will say is that short of technical language it is as simple as possible. It means that you must give effect to your Bill, which says that the person who is owner of the goods shall be entitled to a C licence, and say that he will not be plying for hire or reward if carrying the goods of a subsidiary company, or is a subsidiary company carrying the goods of the head company. That is a matter which will require attention, and I have only indicated it now in order to show that it is a matter which must be dealt with, otherwise you will be placing very great difficulty in the way of the great companies that carry on business in this country. I sincerely hope that the Government will be able to meet the point when it is brought before them. I will not press it any further now, especially as I understand that it has been under consideration, and that something may be said about it later. All I wish to add now is that we think that the Bill, as introduced here, although it does not go quite as far as one would wish if there were more time, is yet a definite step in advance and will help to cure some of the evils from which we are suffering in the matter of road traffic, and I hone it will meet some of the difficulties of the railway companies.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, as has been pointed out by all those who have spoken this afternoon, this Bill is one of absolutely vital importance for the road transport industry. But what is perhaps not realised by all of your Lordships is that the Bill refers not only to heavy motor lorries, motor omnibuses, and so on, but to all motor traffic, to cyclists and horse-drawn traffic, and, in fact, to everything that moves upon the road. There is one particular clause in this Bill under which the Minister seeks power to restrict the use of the roads by any form
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of traffic whatever. Clause 25 is absolutely unlimited in its scope. It gives the Minister power to prohibit the use of roads, if necessary, to cyclists, to horse-drawn vehicles, to light motor cars, in fact, as I say, absolutely to anything that moves on the roads to-day. I mention this at once because at a later stage those with whom I am associated and on whose behalf I am able to speak will certainly move Amendments designed to confine the scope of this clause within proper limits, that is to say, to limit its operation to heavy vehicles and so on.
The transport industry of the country realises—I think everybody realises and everybody is agreed—that some measure of regulation has been absolutely inevitable for the motor transport industry. But it is a great industry. It is an industry which has grown up and which has made vast strides in the last few years. It is an industry upon which many other industries depend. Many of the distributing trades depend very largely upon the motor transport industry for the transport not only of goods but of food-stuffs also. I think everything depends upon the administration of this Bill. The motor transport interests, I believe, on the whole welcome the Bill, but naturally they are somewhat nervous with regard to many of the provisions which it contains. There are provisions in this Bill which, if they were used in, shall we say, an unscrupulous way, are capable of very seriously hampering this great industry. There are large numbers of men who depend entirely upon this industry for their livelihood—how large not many people realise. I do not know that I realised it until the other day. This is, I am sure, a point that will appeal to the noble Lord who spoke on behalf of the Opposition.
Many of us on this side of the House were disappointed that a certain by-election in London recently did not turn out as successfully from the point of view of the Conservative Party as some may have hoped, and many inquiries were made with regard to this. I happen to know that at least one large transport company has its headquarters in the Fulham area, and I also happen to know that they employ well over a thousand men, and those men, nearly all f them voters in the constituency, for the most part did not vote at all, because they felt that under this Bill the Govern-

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ment were seeking powers which might possibly have the effect, if they were so used, of taking away their livelihood. I only mention that as a point to show that it is not necessarily only the owners of the vehicles, or the people connected with the management of great concerns, who are affected, but it is also the workers who depend upon them for their daily bread, and who will be very largely affected if the provisions of this Bill result in harm to the motor transport industry.
Under this Bill it is difficult to see how road transport can make any further development. Some people may think that is a desirable thing, but that is not the opinion of those who know how much this industry has been able to serve the public, notwithstanding competition from other sources. They know that if any harm were done to this industry it might lead to very serious results indeed. At the same time, this Bill is likely to stabilise the road transport industry on a 1932 and 1933 basis. I would remind your Lordships of what has happened under the laws and regulations affecting motor omnibuses and motor coaches. I believe I am correct in saying that no new routes whatever have been brought into operation since those regulations were made, and no more omnibuses and motor coaches are now employed. hope—and I know that the road transport interests hope—that the administration of this Bill will be such as not; absolutely to throttle the road transport industry or to make it quite impossible for it to expand further. After all, it is not only the road transport interests which depend upon this industry; there are other interests which are concerned with the manufucture of the vehicles and the sale of them. The home market for these interests is very important if we are to have any prospect of development overseas, as we hope we may.
There are certain provisions in the Bill with regard to which, when we come to the Committee stage, the interests on whose behalf I am able to speak will certainly do what is possible to secure Amendments. For instance, one Amendment that we shall certainly ask for is compensation for those at present operating road transport, who, under this Bill, will not be able to obtain a licence, and whose livelihood will have been taken away. We shall also desire Amendments
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in connection with the keeping of records. We do not consider, for instance, that it is any part of the province of the driver to be responsible for the records; we consider that that should be the responsibility of the owner. I have already alluded to the matter of restricted roads. No explanation has so far been given by the Minister or by anybody speaking on his behalf as to why the Minister should seek powers to restrict all vehicles on all roads throughout the country. We think it is reasonable perhaps for him to have power to restrict heavy traffic on unclassified roads, but we do not think that his powers should extend to light motor traffic, to horse-drawn traffic, and to cyclists. Then again, we shall move an Amendment to deal with level crossings which also come within the scope of this Bill, and probably another Amendment to deal with inquiries under the Bill. We are very anxious indeed that there should be no secret inquiries. Secret inquiries under this Bill would be likely to give rise to grave suspicion, and we hope that when appeals are being heard they will be hoard, as far as possible, in public.
There is one matter which has not been dealt with by any speaker this afternoon. I do not propose to deal with it at any length, only just to mention it. The Minister has given notice to the Road Transport Federation of his intention to move a new clause dealing with weak bridges, on the Committee stage of the Bill. I would ask the Minister to be extraordinarily careful about this new clause. As the clause stands it could easily have the effect of bringing all the motor transport of the country to a standstill; and not only the motor transport, but all the omnibus traffic in London. No fewer than 105 bridges in the London area are affected by the clause as it now stands. But I shall not dwell on that point, as your Lordships perhaps have not had an opportunity of seeing the clause.
The total volume of traffic affected by this Bill is very large. It is anticipated that no fewer than 370,000 vehicles will have to be licensed. A great deal of discussion this afternoon has centred round the C-class vehicle. C-class licences are expected to number a quarter of a million, and the subject is of the greatest possible importance. I am quite certain

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that there is a great measure of agreement on all sides of the House with what has been done in order to secure fair wages and fair operating conditions on behalf of the men. I shall not take up the time of your Lordships' House longer. I shall only say that the interests for whom I speak do not wish to oppose this Bill. On the contrary, they wish to facilitate its passage; but they do hope that when they are doing that the Minister will try to give the most favourable consideration he can to the Amendments which we shall have to move at a later stage.
VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: My Lords, we must all congratulate ourselves that the noble Earl who has just sat down is amongst us again. I think it would be a great satisfaction to this House if he would refrain from attaching himself to that dangerous employment that seems to amuse him and in future travel by the railways, which would convey him, if not with greater speed, at any rate with greater safety than he seems to enjoy at present. We owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Marquess who moved this Bill. Eminently he is the right nobleman to do it because, being Secretary of State for Air, he, of course, views from above the two interests which up to now have shown a certain opposition to each other. I trust that the Bill which he has introduced will be the end of the quarrels, or, anyhow, that it will lessen the disastrous quarrels, as we may call them, which have existed between road and rail transport. I do not propose to take up much of your Lordships' time, but I happen to be a railway director of some fifty-three years' standing and therefore, although wrongly, a certain bias will be ascribed to me. Anyhow, I ought to be able to bring to you the feeling that the railways have in connection with this Bill. I hope that in addressing your Lordships I shall not overstress the railway point of view or in any way belittle the railways' appreciation of the advantage to be hoped for in these competing industries lying down in peace together.
The Bill, we believe, tempers the wind to the shorn lamb. I regard the railway interests as the shorn lamb, and I am sure some of your Lordships have good reason to appreciate that. Your Lordships will know that much of the
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wool borne by the railway lamb has been taken from it and is now being worn to keep other bodies happy and flourishing —a perfectly legitimate transference if the conditions enjoyed by the shearer were equally to be enjoyed by the sheared. This Bill, we feel, makes the shearing somewhat fairer, and the public has the satisfaction of knowing that if the shorn lamb gets in the way of national interests or stands too much in the way of competing interests, occupying a place it ought not to do on the highways provided largely at the expense of the State and the rates, or if it occupies such a place on the high seas or on the ways provided free by the Almighty, the public has a way of putting the lamb in its right place by appealing either to the Railway Rates Tribunal, the Transport Advisory Council, or the Appeal Tribunal, all safeguards set up by this Bill. The attitude of the railways is to accept this Bill, not by any means because they accept every point of it or because it gives them all they want, but in the hope that it will lead to that co-ordination so much to be desired between all the competing interests. Admittedly it gives the railways less than the Salter Conference recommended. That Report, your Lordships will remember, was unanimous, and it was unanimous largely because the railway members, although they were trying for other matters, agreed for the sake of unanimity to acquiesce in certain clauses of which they did not altogether approve.
During the debates the Minister of Transport indicated that the Bill was an essential preliminary to co-ordination of the kind suggested in the Salter Report. The railways accept it as such, and the House will recognise therefore that this Bill is an important and far-reaching attempt to solve the difficulties and differences which up to now have been so prominent among the competing interests. The Bill before your Lordships is an agreed measure. That is largely due to the conciliatory discussions which took place before the Bill came before the other House, and also to the able manner in which the Minister of Transport conducted the Bill through that House. It may be, indeed, it inevitably must happen, that none of us have got all that we wanted, but I suppose the next best thing to getting all you want is to get as much as you can, and that seems to express the position of us all. But I cannot too strongly emphasise the absolute neces-

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sity, the long-felt necessity, of such a Bill, partly to relieve the railways from intolerably unfair competition and also to alter the conditions under which they were working—conditions which, when imposed, were perfectly fair, because the railways then had a monopoly of the transport system.
One word more. Under Part III it is proposed to set up a Transport Advisory Council. The railways welcome such a council, and note that the Minister of Transport has already agreed to transmit to that Council two matters of major importance, one being the proper division of functions between road and rail, and the other being the control and regulation of charges for transport of goods by road. It is most earnestly hoped that the Transport Advisory Council will lose no time in considering these matters, and, by the advice that it is able to give to the Ministry, bring about an equitable condition for all forms of transport and eventually co-ordinate them for the good of the State.
LORD ILIFFE: My Lords, it was far from my intention to intervene in a debate on the first occasion it has been possible for me to exercise the privilege of attending a sitting of this House as a member. There are, however, one or two points in connection with the Road and Rail Traffic Bill which I feel require amendment, and I should be doing very much less than my duty if I did not call attention to them. I will, however, as becomes a new member of your Lordships' House, be as brief as possible. The main principles of the Bill I do not question, and I hope it will speedily become the law of the land. There are, however, one or two points I would like to raise on the Second Reading in the hope that the Government may see their way to fall in with the views I am about to express.
First of all, it seems to me that the Bill, as it stands, creates a hardship in that it permits the Minister to refuse to renew an existing A or B licence although the applicant has an absolutely clean record and has done nothing whatever to warrant his licence being taken away. Presumably the ground upon which such a licence would be refused in such a case is that the licence is redundant; in other words, that there are other licences granted which are sufficient to take care
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of the carrying in a particular district. When this clause was debated in another place it was suggested that the licensee should be compensated if a renewal of his licence was refused, but so far as I am aware no suggestion was made as to the fund out of which that compensation should be paid. In my view, and in the view of certain of my noble friends who are associated with me in this matter, the Minister should be required to renew all existing licences, provided the licence holder has not infringed the regulations, unless the renewal is opposed by other licence holders on the grounds of redundancy. In the case of refusal those who oppose the granting of the licence should be made responsible for providing the compensation. This compensation could easily be fixed by the arbitration tribunal which is provided for in the terms of the Bill. Unless this is done I fear that every application for the renewal of a licence will be automatically opposed.
Furthermore, a person whose business it is to convey goods by horse-drawn vehicles should have definite rights to be granted a licence should be desire to re-place those horse-drawn vehicles by motor vehicles. Alternatively, he should be granted compensation if that licence is refused. Unless such a provision is inserted in the Bill great hardship will result to those who have organised a carrying business and are arbitrarily obliged to curtail their activities for the common good of their competitors. Such a provision in the Bill would reduce the number of objectors to the renewing of a licence, and it would reduce the opposition to the grant of a new licence in the ease of those who wish to supersede their horse-drawn vehicles by mechanically-propelled vehicles. The objectors to a licence before they laid objection would take care to arrange that all who benefit by the reduction in the number of licences should provide their quota of compensation.
There is just one other provision in the Bill to which I should like to direct your Lordships' attention, and that is in regard to the unnecessary filling up of returns. Those noble Lords who are engaged in commercial avocations will, I think, agree with me that one of the major operations to-day in connection with our businesses is the filling up of forms. It requires a special department

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in many large businesses to deal with the many returns which are required by Government Departments, and this House will be doing a real service to the commercial community if it insists that no returns are required unless some really useful purpose is being served. The Traffic Commissioners under the Bill cannot refuse to grant C licences; that is, as we have been told by the noble Marquess, to licence the persons or firms who provide transport for their own goods, and I suggest it is quite unnecessary to licence these carriers of their own goods at all. Alternatively, if they are licensed, they should not be required to keep elaborate records as to journeys and weights and other things which the Bill now requires them to do.
Then Clause 14, subsection (2), imposes the duty on the drivers of licensed vehicles to keep records and make entries in a prescribed form. I submit that the average driver of a lorry is not the sort of person upon whom a statutory duty of this kind could safely be imposed. The responsibility for keeping records should be imposed in every case upon the holder of the licence and not upon the man whose job it is to drive a particular vehicle. This should apply to all A and B licences but not to C licences, because in my opinion the C licence holders should not be required to keep these statistics at all. These, my Lords, are some of the major objections to the Bill as it stands. The noble Earl who pre-ceded me advanced other objections and with these I sympathise. I feel if these criticisms can be met it ought not to be necessary to occupy too much of your Lordships' time when this Bill reaches its Committee stage.
THE EARL OF KTNNOULL: My Lords, I put down a Resolution some few months ago with regard to lorry drivers and the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, was good enough on behalf of the Government to agree with me that the hours worked by some drivers was nothing short of a scandal and that the law was being flouted also—he qualified that by saying "by the less scrupulous type of employer." He was also good enough to accent my Resolution. He further assured me that the Government would introduce legislation to remedy the matter. The Bill now before your Lordships for Second Reading would appear to be the legislation then foreshadowed. But this
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Bill does little or nothing to better the position which I am about to put before your Lordships.
The first point with which I wish to deal has reference to C-class licences. As the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, has explained to your Lordships, C-class licences extend to vehicles owned by, and to men employed by, firms whose primary business is not that of firms of contractors. Under the terms of this Bill the safeguards as to fair wages and proper hours do not apply to C-class licences in the same way as they apply to public-service vehicles. The number of vehicles owned by firms whose primary business is not that of firms of contractors is certainly 60 per cent., very likely 70 per cent. and more probably 75 per cent. of the total number, of lorries on the road to-day, and so at least 60 per cent., probably 70 per cent. and more likely 75 per cent. of the drivers of these vehicles are concerned. It was about the conditions of work of those drivers that I complained some few months ago. They are left entirely untouched by the provisions of this Bill.
In the first place, as my noble friend Lord Ponsonby has said, the drivers of lorries which come under the C-class licence do not have to pass any test such as that imposed on the drivers of public service vehicles in whose case a stringent test of reversing, getting a vehicle into proper place and generally having proper control of the vehicle is required. Thus any youth who is old enough to obtain a driving licence can be put in charge of a heavy lorry without having the slightest experience of driving such a vehicle. Driving a heavy lorry is a very different-proposition from that of driving an ordinary light motor car. Some of your Lordships may have had the experience of driving a lorry. I have myself. Everything is very much heavier. Changing gear is a wearisome business. It is not like the latest type of car with synchromesh and fluid fly-wheel. Most of the lorries on the road to-day are ancient. They are six or seven years old and still have the old type of gear change.
Then, too, it is a heavy business to steer them. I have no doubt that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will agree with me when I say that the steering is frequently worm driven, and is very heavy and tiring to handle for any length of

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time. Then there is the length of the vehicle to be considered. Anybody who has tried to drive an omnibus will know what it is like to get round a corner. You have to take into consideration the length of the vehicle and, if you are not careful, you will go over the kerb with the back of it. Driving these heavy vehicles is a job that certainly needs a considerable amount of skill. And yet anybody who is old enough, as I said a moment ago, to hold a driver's licence is allowed to drive one of these lorries. It does seem to me most extraordinary that the Minister of Transport should allow such a dangerous weapon of potential homicide as a big lorry to be in the hands of a person who probably has no experience of driving this type of vehicle, and who has never undergone any test whatever as to his fitness to drive it. It would make more for public safety if an extra licence had to be granted by the Commissioner of Police to the drivers of these C-class vehicles in the same way as to drivers of public-service vehicles.
As I have said before, when I put down my Resolution a few months ago the noble Earl, Lord Plymouth, was good enough to say that the Government would tighten up existing legislation. Since then in reading the newspapers I have seen week by week cases of people being prosecuted for breaking the law. It is not that there is an occasional case: on the average there are two or three per week. I have here some instances taken within the last two months and I will quote to your Lordships one which was reported in the Manchester Guardian on August 15, 1933. The report says:
"At an inquest to-day at Leicester on Reginald Daniel Jesse Rushton, a lorry driver, of Boston, employed by Alec Joseph haulage contractor, of Boston, the employer was severely censured by the jury.
Rushton was fatally injured by his lorry's colliding with a tram standard at Leicester early on Friday morning. His widow said he only had an hour and a-half's sleep in the four days from Monday night till Friday morning. He went with loads of potatoes from Boston to Rochdale on Monday night"—
and then she gave details of his journey. The report continues:
"Hare, the employer, said to the deputy coroner that he thought Rushton would get some rest between his journeys.
"The Deputy Coroner: Where was the time?
"Hare: After he delivered his loads.
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"The Foreman of the Jury: I hope you do not treat your other men like this.
"The Deputy Coroner: I should call it slave driving.
"The Foreman: The jury return a verdict of accidental death, but think the blame practically rests upon the employer for his inhumanity.
"The Deputy Coroner: I agree he is morally responsible."
I take another case reported in the Manchester Guardian. I am careful not to quote the Daily Herald because your Lordships possibly do not like that paper. This case was reported in the Manchester Guardian on August 24, 1933. The report begins:
"The suggestion that a fatal road accident was caused through the driver of a heavy motor-lorry falling asleep on to the steering wheel while returning from a two-day journey was made at a Bolton inquest to-day."
The report goes on to state that a witness said:
"Waugh [that is the driver] had been driving continuously, except for a few minutes when they stopped to fill up with petrol, since nine o'clock the previous night."
The witness who said that, Waugh's mate on the lorry, gave the actual schedule. He said they left Glasgowhat 1 p.m., reached Lanark at 1.30, stayed there until 4.15 p.m., and then drove on to Carlisle. He also gave the rest of the schedule.
There is another case which I want to quote and I am sorry that this is taken from the Daily Worker of September 28. The report says:
"'Being asleep is no excuse,' said Mr. Griffith Jones to W. W. West, lorry driver, of Wingham Well, who was summoned at Tower Bridge Court yesterday for driving without due care and without a licence.
"Defendant said he had been working ail the previous day and at 5 p.m. left Sandwich to drive to Covent Garden. On the way hack he fell asleep and woke up to find another lorry coming towards him. He swerved to avoid it and struck the milk barrow. As he had no foot brake he was unable to pull up sooner.
"Many Kentish lorry drivers worked all day and drove all night at this time of the year. They picked and loaded in the day, drove all night to Covent Garden, where they unloaded, and then were expected to drive back again.
"Defendant was fined forty shillings."
That is what is happening to-day. Drivers on the road to-day are going about in a state of semi-consciousness. They are a danger to themselves and a

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menace to other road users, injuring and frequently killing themselves, as I have just illustrated by the cases I have quoted, and strewing death in their path as they pass over the roads too sleepy to keep properly awake, collapsing even at the side of the road from exhaustion.
There was a case the other day where a man driving a lorry, in order to comply with the law, went into a field to have half-an-hour's sleep. He lay down in a turnip field. It was raining and he went to sleep. A policeman happened to see the lorry, woke the man up and actually arrested him, saying that he was drunk. The man was proved not to be drunk. He was drunk from want of sleep; that is what it comes to. The newspapers are full of statistics of the butchery and murder occurring on our roads to-clay, but I ask your Lordships, is it the men themselves who are the murderers? No, it is not. These poor fellows are trying to do the humanly impossible in order to keep a house over the heads of their wives and children, to put bread and butter into the mouths of their families and save them from the indignities of the Poor Law. Is it the employers who are the murderers? In part, perhaps, because it is through their avarice for a larger margin of profit that they are working these poor men as even slaves did not have to work in the galleys. Or is it the Government themselves who are the murderers? The Ministry of Transport, by its failure to enforce the existing provisions under Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act of 1930, is largely contributing to the carnage on the roads. Mr. Oliver Stanley himself has admitted that the law governing lorry drivers' hours is practically a dead letter, the police and the magistrates having never made any legal attempt to enforce it. I challenge the noble Marquess and the Government to tell us what machinery has been set up to deal with this question of hours. No machinery has been set up and now in this Bill nothing is done upon this vital question.
There is one more case, the most recent I have noticed except for case which I saw in the paper to-day, and I will quote it from the Daily Herald of October 28:
"A lorry driver, giving evidence at Dewsbury (Yorks) Police Court yesterday, stated that he began work on September 3 at 4 a.m., and continued without sleep or rest until 2.30 a.m. on September 5, a total of 40½ hours. Messrs. Garlick, Burrell & Edwards, Ltd., haulage contractors, of
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Chappell street, Liverpool, were fined £5 and costs for having employed Joseph Lancaster for more than eleven hours in twenty-four. It was stated that there were forty-two previous convictions for various motor offences against the company since 1922. Lancaster described an accident which occurred on September 5 and said the fatigue of working so long was a contributory cause. When he reported the accident to the company he was discharged. For the company it was stated that Lancaster was not dismissed, but walked out saying: I have shopped you"'.
I naturally wondered who this firm was with 42 convictions for motoring offences since 1922; and what do I find?* I find that Mr. Edwards, who is a partner in this firm, is Chairman of the Federation of Transport Employers and, further, that he was a member of the Salter Conference. It is surprising that this Mr. Edwards, who is a member of a firm which works its employees 46 hours without any rest and has had 42 convictions since 1922, is the best that the Ministry can find to serve on the Salter Conference. If he is the best what must be the record of the worst?
I pass to a reference to the question of the fair wages clause, which the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, dealt with fairly exhaustively. The fair wages clause applies at present only to the public-service vehicle. I understand it is now to apply to A and B licences. But what about C? About 70 to 75 per cent. of the vehicles on the road conic under C licences and I understood the noble Earl to say that 250,000 to 300,000 men are employed. It seems ridiculous that there is no proposal in this Bill covering the C licences. In conclusion I would appeal to those who have the safety of the public at heart, noble Lords like Lord Buck-master and Lord Danesfort, who I am sorry to see are not in their places, to help in the Committee stage of this Bill to secure Amendments which will give the public some safeguards against the menace of the over-fatigued driver of these death-dealing instruments, and put an end to the terrible condition endured by these men who, through the fault of a rapacious system which takes no heed of anything but profit, are a danger to themselves and to the lives of the community.
LORD DE CLIFFORD: My Lords, I will not detain you for more than a few minutes. We must all accept this Bill

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as a necessity. I do not consider that all the provisions in it are as desirable as might have been expected, but we must take what we are given and, I suppose, make the best of it. I think we must all agree with the noble Earl who made a. plea for liberality, of administration. I cannot conceive that it is the policy of the Ministry of Transport to bring this industry of transport and haulage on the roads to a standstill because, if that is their aim, they are about to cripple a most important industry which has yet barely come to life. If administration is to be upon what I scarcely like to call the inhuman methods, but the rather unfeeling methods so prevalent among civil servants and others, a good deal of hard ship may be caused to the small transport men in this country. I think that they, probably unrepresented to a large extent and unable to make their weight felt, are going to be more penalised than anybody realises under this Bill. I would like to ask for a little information as to the position of the small haulier with, say, four or five lorries running regularly. Supposing, during working, one of the lorries meets by misfortune with an accident or a breakdown, I see no provision by which he can go to the maker of lorries or another firm and hire for any specified time a lorry to take its place. It may be said that if he is prudent he will have another lorry in reserve. But there is nothing in this Bill which gives him power to take out any form of licence to cover a margin and I think it will be a serious thing for these people if there is not to be some method by which they can transfer a licence from one lorry to another they may have to hire under, and only under, necessity. In the circumstances I think there will be a tendency, through no fault of the individual, to pass businesses over to big firms which can have the margin they wish.
There is another point on which I would like information. I see that when a man applies for a licence he has to state the rate he is going to charge. The statement of these rates, as far as I can see, under this Bill, will have no definite bearing on the issuing of licences, because whether the rates are too high or too low does not necessarily debar the applicant from having the licence for which he has applied. I think it is an unnecessary and rather an unusual thing
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to ask an applicant to lay before the Commissioner a statement as to what are his charges and what are his methods of doing business, and I should like to be given some real reason why an applicant should be compelled to put forward his rates. I do sincerely hope that this Bill will work. I think it is a necessary Bill. Although perhaps it is not quite in the form in which I should have liked it, I think there is some necessity for it, and I can only hope that it will work and work to the benefit of the country. There is only one gleam of hope that I can see for the users of the road which has emerged from this debate, and that is the large step forward which Lord Ponsonby has taken towards joining the ranks of those who have demanded tests for drivers. I think that the talk of death-dealing vehicles running on our roads is equally applicable to any form of combustion engine in use upon our roads to-day, and, having seen him take one step boldly, we are encouraged to hope that he will soon take another, which will complete his conversion to our cause.
LORD LUKE: My Lords, I will only delay your Lordships for a few minutes. We cannot think of road traffic without bearing in mind that motor accidents are now counted by the hundred thousand and the killed and injured by over 200,000 per annum in Great Britain alone; but the results would be much more serious were it not for the hospitals, large and small, that exist in the towns and villages all along the motor roads. These hospitals were not put there by the motoring public as casualty stations, but were built mostly by local voluntary effort for the benefit of the local sick poor, They are run by kindly people, who always take in the most urgent cases, and these happen to be nowadays largely the result of motor accidents. So much so that local patients have to wait their turn after these casualty cases of strangers to the district.
These hospitals are not asking motorists to pay something towards the buildings and equipment that have so fortunately been placed in sites adjacent to the motor accidents, but they have been asking that the out-of-pocket expenses of these motor accident cases should be met, not by the local inhabitants, but by the motorists. Your Lord-

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ships realised this point of view in 1929–30, and amended the Motor Traffic Bill which was then before this House, but legal and other difficulties have stood in the way of the hospitals reaping anything like a full refund. The annual cost to the hospitals is estimated at £230,000, and they recover only about one-eighth of this. It is estimated that in 1931 £34,000 was recovered, and claims for £58,000, arising out of 6,000 further cases, were still unsettled when the statistics were compiled. As hospitals dislike pressing their claim by legal action, they probably now obtain under a quarter of the expenditure incurred. The whole £230,000 is not a large matter if it were divided over all the motor insurance policies, probably under 2s. 6d. each, hut it becomes a very heavy tax when it has to be met in a large measure by the hospitals that happen to be near the highways upon which motor accidents are most numerous. If motorists really understood the true position I think they would not be content to have these comparatively poor hospitals continually acting as the Good Samaritan to motorists, and in my humble opinion no Road Traffic Bill is complete unless it amends the law, and enables these hospitals to get pretty full repayment of their out-of-pocket expenditure in connection with motor accident cases.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (TIM EARL OF PLYMOUTH): My Lords, I think I can safely claim that although this Bill has been criticised in certain respects its general principles have been accorded a very favourable reception in your Lordships' House. Many of the criticisms were in regard to matters of detail, which I think perhaps can be more properly dealt with on the Committee stage, but I should like, as far as I am able, to give a reply to a number of the questions which were addressed to me during the course of the speeches which have been made. Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, the Leader of the Opposition, made a criticism which is very often heard in connection with a Bill of this kind—namely, that, although he supported it, he did not think it went far enough. I doubt very much whether the solution of the problem before us which he has in mind is one which would appeal to the majority of your Lordships, but I do think we must keep this in mind,
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that it is far better to go cautiously in a matter of this kind. Very many good causes have been spoilt by going too fast. We ought to go forward gradually in the light of experience gained, and I think we can claim that this Bill has gone a considerable way towards a solution of the problem with which we are faced in regard to transport and particularly road transport.
The noble Lord devoted the greater part of his speech to the fair wages clause and its application in this Bill. He complained of the fact that the fair wages clause was only to apply to the holders of A and B licences and not to the holders of C licences. There are arguments, I know, which can be brought forward on both sides with regard to this matter. I know that my honourable friend the Minister of Transport was anxious—I think I can go so far as to say that—to apply the fair wages clause to C licence holders, if it were found possible to do so, but after very careful consideration, as the noble Marquess has already told your Lordships, he came to the conclusion that the practical difficulties were such that it really was not possible, at any rate at that stage. The noble Marquess who introduced the Bill has, I think, explained to you very clearly, and at some length, the reasons which actuated the Minister of Transport in coming to that decision, but I am authorised to make a further short statement on the matter, which I hope may go some way towards satisfying the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition.
The provision of this fair wages clause, as applied to A and B licence holders, represents in itself a greatly increased field of compulsion, and it is reasonable to await experience of its operation before embarking on a step such as tile application of the provision to the large number of C licence holders as well. It is fully realised that the position with regard to organisation and agreements in the case of road transport workers is unsatisfactory, and that difficulty may arise in the application of the fair wages provisions even to the holders of A licences and B licences. It is desired to take all possible steps to endeavour to secure that agreed conditions may be brought into existence to which the Industrial Court may refer. With this object my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour proposes to consult

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with the organisations of employers and workpeople with a view to the establishment of a joint voluntary body or bodies which will have as their object the settlement of proper working conditions. It is to the interest of all concerned that such agreed conditions should be settled and every effort will be made to establish a pasition in which this will be possible. I believe that that statement may go some way at any rate towards satisfying the noble Lord, and I think it is perfectly clear that if a state of affairs such as that can be reached—although actually the drivers for C licence holders may not come under these provisions in the Bill—that decision will react and permeate throughout the industry and have a considerable effect.
The noble Lord dealt further with the conditions of employment of drivers in the industry. He stated that there were at the present moment a great many inducements to break the law, inducements which were brought to bear, as it were, by the employers on the employed drivers. That may be so at the present moment, but there are undoubtedly provisions in this Bill which will make it much more difficult to do so in the future. To begin with, there is a provision by which records will have to be kept, and no doubt details with regard to hours of employment and various labour conditions will have to be referred to in these records. Therefore if there is any breach with regard to them it will be far more easily detected if this Bill becomes law than it is now. The noble Lord has mentioned specifically the point of a driver taking rest away from his vehicle, and said that his Party would press this matter to a conclusion on the Committee stage. I am glad to say that I am in a position to tell him that the Government are prepared to bring forward an Amendment with regard to this matter which I think will prove satisfactory to all those who are concerned.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: Hear, hear.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: The noble Marquess, Lord Reading, had very little criticism to make of the Bill, and he gave the Government his warm support. With regard to the matter which has been raised by the noble Lord opposite, the fair wages clause and its application to the various classes of licence holders, he
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saw the difficulties which undoubtedly exist. I think he put the case very fairly. The difficulties are very great. They were clearly explained by the noble Marquess who introduced the Bill, but I was able to make the statement a moment ago which I think will go some way towards meeting the case, and which will probably have the effect of making this provision applicable to all those C licence holders where the conditions do not make it quite impracticable. I think that will probably be the general effect of it. The noble Marquess, Lord Reading, raised a point with regard to holding companies and subsidiary companies held entirely by the first company. On that point I am able to tell him that the Minister is prepared to consider any Amendment in practicable terms which would enable the holding company and its 100 per cent. subsidiaries to operate under one C licence. That is a matter for Committee, and no doubt by that stage some suggestion will have been brought forward by the noble Marquess or his friends.
I should like to say a word or two in reply to the noble Earl, Lord Howe. He began by saying that this Bill would probably have the effect of closing down all development in the road transport industry. With due respect to one who has a far greater knowledge of this matter than I have, I venture to differ from him on that point. I really do not believe that will be so. To support his argument he quoted the effect of the Road Traffic Act on the road passenger transport industry and said there were fewer vehicles on the road now than there were when it was passed. I maintain that the number of vehicles on the road cannot possibly be taken as the criterion of prosperity or otherwise of an industry. What that Act did do was to produce order out of chaos, and unless some Act of that kind had been passed into law the road passenger transport industry would have wrecked itself and I really believe the same argument applies almost in its entirety to the road transport industry.
The noble Earl raised a number of questions of detail which he said he was going to refer to in Committee. I do not think it is necessary therefore for me to attempt to deal with them now. He did, however, complain of the possibility of there being secret inquiries

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under this Bill. I really think that he is under a misapprehension. All appeals to the Tribunal will, of course, be in public, and I think I am also right in saying that on the revocation of a licence it is possible for the applicant to ask that the inquiry shall be held in public. I am not quite clear on that point, but I think that is so. At any rate, there is absolutely no intention that these inquiries should be held in secret. There is no ulterior motive, and the only object of not making them all public straight away is to try to avoid expense as much as possible. I think that consideration will probably appeal to your Lordships.
The noble Earl also referred to Clause 25, which gives the Minister certain powers with regard to the closing of certain roads to different kinds of vehicles. Of course, there is no intention of keeping bicycles and things of that kind off particular roads. The whole object really is to close roads to these heavy vehicles, and I think the noble Earl himself believes that that is a perfectly legitimate object to have in view. But I would also point out to your Lordships that before the Minister can make any Order of this kind he has to lay before both Houses of Parliament such an Order, and it will not be of any effect unless it receives an affirmative Resolution of both Houses. That is a very different thing from the way in which Orders are very usually dealt with in your Lordships' House.
I want just to refer to the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Knutsford. He welcomed this Bill, too. He said once again that perhaps it did not go far enough, as far as he was concerned, from the point of view of the railways, but he did welcome it for the reason that it put the railways in a more advantageous position vis-à-vis the road transport industry than it had occupied in the past. I think he referred particularly to the clause in this Bill which enables the railways to introduce what is called the flat or composite rate, that is, an agreed charge which can be made to certain traders. I feel I ought to emphasise the arguments in justification of that clause. At the present moment, as your Lordships know, the railways have to quote charges of so much per ton per mile. Furthermore, they are under obligation to give no undue preference to any particular trader. This method of charging
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is very inconvenient and very clumsy, but the real point was referred to by the noble Viscount—namely, that these conditions were laid down at a time when the railways had a virtual monopoly of inland transport. The position is a very different one now. That is a point which does not require to be emphasised; it is perfectly obvious. Since then the road transport industry has grown up. It has become very powerful, and it is in a very advantageous position compared with the railways. It is perfectly free to make any charges it likes; it is perfectly free to make any contracts with any particular trader it likes; and, furthermore, it is under no kind of obligation with regard to undue preference. It can quote one rate to one trader and another rate to another trader. In short, it can do anything it likes.
There is every reason why the railways should be put on a basis of equality with the roads so far as this particular matter is concerned. There are absolutely adequate safeguards so far as the trader is concerned. As has been pointed out by the noble Marquess who introduced the Bill, the trader has ample powers of objecting, either himself or through his representatives, and, furthermore, he can ask that if an agreed charge is approved by the Railway Rates Tribunal he himself should be accorded a fixed charge, if he thinks that his business is in any way deleteriously affected. I think it is perfectly clear that both the Tribunal and the railways will be forced to have regard to the position of other traders, and this fact should be a very great deterrent to any unfair advantage being taken of this clause.
I pass on. I should like to say a word or two about the remarks of my noble friend Lord Iliffe. Here may I say in parentheses, though most sincerely, we very greatly welcome his first speech in this House, and we hope he will find many opportunities in the future of joining in our debates. He viewed with a certain amount of alarm the possibility of the licensing authority refusing to renew the A or B licences. I should like to point out to him that the Minister has inserted in the Bill a provision creating a bias in the decisions of the licensing authority in favour of existing licence holders. That will be found in Clause 6 (2) (a). I think it is clearly impossible to create a vested interest in this

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respect in favour of all the existing operators or of future licence holders. These were the arguments which actuated the Minister in coming to this conclusion, and they are arguments which have very great force. With regard to C licence holders, Lord Iliffe suggested that it really was hardly necessary for them to keep records. I venture to disagree with him on that point. I think it is most essential that they should have to keep records in order to check any flagrant abuses of the law. It is the small man very often who in the future may be a C licence holder. He is very often among the worst offenders in this respect. The nature of the records will be decided by the Minister after consultation with the Advisory Council, and will vary according to the nature of the industry.
The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, referred to a number of very flagrant instances of breaches of the law in respect of the hours of employment. It is a subject which had already been dealt with by Lord Ponsonby. All I would say is that there seem to be provisions in this Bill which will make it very difficult for breaches of the law to be carried out without detection in the future, especially when those who may be inclined to effect those breaches in the law will know that their licences will in all probability be suspended. The suspension of the licences is a deterrent which probably will have more effect than any of the other penalties included in this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, referred to the case of the small haulier who might have some three or four vehicles, one of which might break down, and he might be in the position of not being able to obtain another vehicle at short notice. I understand this difficulty is covered in the Bill. The applicant is entitled to a hiring margin; I think it comes in Clause 2 (6) (b), and I understand that the difficulty has been foreseen by the Minister and is considered to be adequately covered by that provision.
I have dealt fairly fully with the various criticisms which have been made about this Bill. As I said earlier they were mostly criticisms of detail which would no doubt be brought up again on the Committee stage and fully thrashed out then. But before I sit down let me refer to the remarks of Lord Luke. I
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am sorry I did not refer earlier to what he had to say with regard to hospitals. That is, of course, a matter we have discussed on several occasions here, and I know that the representations that he has made are always in the mind of the Minister, and what he says will naturally receive consideration. In conclusion, I merely want to say that, as the noble Marquess who introduced the Bill has stated, the Government put forward no claim that by this Bill they have settled all the problems created by the modern development of mechanical transport, but we do feel that this measure represents a very definite step in the right direction. For guidance in planning in the future on sound lines the Government look with confidence to the members of the Transport Advisory Council, who represent many and varied interests, and who, I am certain, will give of their best in the service of the nation. In this connection I think the recent settlement of old difficulties between the railways and the canal companies is a very happy augury for the future. We have heard a great deal of late about this unhappy controversy of road versus rail. The Government's desire is to substitute for that competition, co-operation between road and rail, and we feel that the first step towards that end must be the stabilisation of the road industry itself, which up to now has been in an almost chaotic state, and it must be a stabilisation which shall rest on the sure foundation of security, of decent conditions of employment for the driver, of the road worthiness of his vehicle, and of due respect for the life and limb of other users of the road. I hope your Lordships will now give this Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PONSONI1Y OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, before we adjourn perhaps the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House will tell us when the Committee stage of the Road and Rail Traffic Bill will be taken, and also at what, time the House will meet to-morrow?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for ask-

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ing the question. I am afraid we shall have to ask your Lordships' House to meet on Monday of next week, because it is desired to get the Prorogation by Friday. I do not see how it is possible to arrange that unless we have the Committee stage of the Bill on Monday next. I hope, therefore, that noble Lords who have Amendments will be good enough to put them down as soon as they conveniently can so that your Lordships may have an opportunity of considering them before they are discussed. If the Committee stage should take more than one day then I shall propose to go on with it on Tuesday the 14th.
With regard to to-morrow, there are, as your Lordships know, two Motions down, one in the name of my noble friend Lord Peel with regard to China, and the other in the name of the noble Lord the
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Leader of the Opposition (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) with regard to the Disarmament Conference. Neither of those is a topic which we would desire to have hurried. Both are matters of grave importance. I have ascertained from the judicial authorities that it would be no inconvenience to them if your Lordships' House were to meet at three o'clock to-morrow. I propose, therefore, that we should meet at that time to-morrow and then we will take first my noble friend Lord Peel's Motion. I understand that the Bill of my noble friend Lord Jessel will only take a few minutes for a statement to be made upon it. Then we can proceed to take the Motion which stands in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.
House adjourned at twelve minutes past seven o'clock.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT , 1932 (RURAL DISTRICT OF STROOD ORDER).
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the rural district of Strood:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (BOROUGH OF HORNSEY ORDER).
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Hornsey:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.

SEA-FISHING INDUSTRY ACT, 1933 (SEA-FISHING (REGULATION OF LANDING) ORDER,:1933).
Order, dated August 15, 1933, made by the Board of Trade under Section 1 of the Act:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.