Sitting of 14 March 1933

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Torquay) Bill.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Sheffield) Bill.
Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    AEROPLANES (EXPORTS).
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELLasked the President of the Board of Trade the quantity and declared values of the exports from the United Kingdom of aeroplanes and parts thereof during the year 1932?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: 300 aeroplanes of United Kingdom manufacture, valued at £641,428, 452 aeroplane engines valued at £467,409, and other aeroplane parts valued at £632,594 were exported from this country during the year 1932.
    Mr. GRENFELL: Can the right hon. Gentleman inform us whether the exports of 1932 are much better than those of the previous year?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I should like to have notice of that question.

    JAPANESE IMPORTS.
    Mr. MANDERasked the President of the Board of Trade the imports in 1932 by various parts of the British
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    Empire from Japan; and the proportion which these bear to the total export trade of Japan?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): As the answer involves a tabular statement, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:

    Statement showing the value of merchandise exported from Japan to British Empire countries during 1932, together with the proportions which these exports bear to the total export trade of Japan with countries outside the Japanese Empire.

    Thousand yen.

    Total exports

    1,409,992

    of which exported to:—

    Proportion of total exports. Per cent.

    Great Britain

    59,658

    4.2

    Hong Kong

    18,041

    1.3

    British India

    192,492

    13.7

    Straits Settlements

    25,550

    1.8

    British Borneo

    51

    0.0

    Aden

    8,307

    0.6

    Canada

    8,562

    0.6

    Cape Colony and Natal

    16,418

    1.2

    Eastern Africa

    15,760

    1.1

    Australia

    36,895

    2.6

    New Zealand

    2,993

    0.2

    Total to above British Empire countries

    384,727

    27.3

    Notes to the above table.

    (a) The value of the total exports is in respect of merchandise exported from Japan proper to countries outside the Japanese Empire. Exports to Korea, Formosa, etc., are excluded, but those to leased territory in China are included.

    (b)The British Empire countries are those distinguished in the official trade returns of Japan, particulars in respect of other British countries not being available. "Eastern Africa" is, however, included, as the trade with this area is probably mainly with British countries in East Africa.

    (c)The par and average rates of exchange are as follows:

    Yen.

    Par

    9.763

    £1.

    Average rate of exchange (1932)

    12.528

    Mr. ROBINSON (for Mr. CHORLTON)asked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the effect on home trade of Japanese imports into Empire countries and the failure of any attempt to stop it, he will consider giving a compensating bounty to the industries in this country?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given him on the 6th March, to which I have at present nothing to add.
    Mr. HAMMERSLEY: Are we to understand from that reply that, however abnormal the circumstances of Japanese competition may be, no help will be forthcoming in this difficult situation?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, Sir. That would be a wrong deduction.
    Mrs. COPELANOasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of the china ware imported from Japan during the months of January and February; and how such imports compare with those for similar months in 1930–31?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: As the answer involves a number of figures I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mrs. COPELAND: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware of the seriousness of Japanese competition with English pottery, owing to the fact that the tariff to-day is considerably lower than it was under the Safeguarding Act; and is he also aware that an order given to one of our English firms was cancelled, and that it was an order for one thousand dozen cups and saucers and Japan got the order?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: We shall take into consideration any facts which my hon. Friend cares to lay before us.
    Following is the answer:
    The following table shows the total declared value of china, including translucent pottery and all pottery known as china or porcelain, other than electrical ware, imported into the United Kingdom and registered during the months of January and February of each of the years 1930, 1931 and 1933, as consigned from Japan.

    Year.

    January.

    February.

    £

    £

    1930

    1,441

    1,994

    1931

    2,218

    2,027

    1933

    5,635

    1,733

    Note.—The above figures for 1930 and 1931 relate to imports consigned from Japan (including Formosa and Japanese leased territories in China) while those for 1933 relate to Japan, including Formosa only.

    DENMARK.
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Presi
    dent of the Board of Trade the progress made with Denmark in the negotiations
    for a trade treaty; and whether he will suggest to those concerned the need for
    expedition in reaching a settlement?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Substantial progress has been made in the trade negotiations with Denmark, and I can assure my hon. Friend that they are proceeding without any avoidable delay.

    IMPORTS.
    Mr. CAMPBELLasked the President of the Board of Trade how the volume of retained manufactured imports
    in 1923 and 1924, respectively, compared with that in 1932?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Eliminating the effect of price changes, the volume of the retained imports into the United Kingdom of 'articles wholly or mainly manufactured was in 1923 about the same as in 1932. In 1924 it was greater than in 1932 by about 18 per cent.
    Mr. CAMPBELL: Do not these figures indicate that more protection for our best industries is required if they are to succeed?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: My hon. Friend is quite capable of drawing his own deductions from my statement.
    Mr. CAMPBELL: But will my right hon. Friend take suitable action?

    TARIFFS.
    Sir EUGENE RAMSDENasked the
    President of the Board of Trade how many complaints have been received that
    foreign countries have infringed the spirit of the most-favoured-nation clause
    in our commercial treaties with them during the last three years by special
    sub-division of their tariff schedules, lead ing to virtual discrimination against British goods; what foreign countries were concerned; and what action, if any, has been taken by His Majesty's Government in each individual case and with what result?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot recall any important cases of this kind which have arisen during the last three years.
    Mr. D. GRENFELLasked the
    President of the Board of Trade whether

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    he is satisfied that the trade of this country is getting full benefit from the operation of the most-favoured-nation clause; and whether he will propose to the World Economic Conference the adoption of more directly reciprocal measures as a means of reaching agreement to lower tariffs all round?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am satisfied that the most-favoured-nation clause in this country's commercial treaties has been an invaluable safeguard to its external trade. As regards the second part of the question, I have nothing to add to the answer that was given to the hon. Member on the 21st February.

    BANKRUPTCIES (ALIENS),
    Mr. STOURTONasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of naturalised aliens who have been declared bankrupt during each of the past 10 years, including those who may have during that period anglicised their names?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The information desired is not available.

    EMPIRE ECONOMIC CONSULTATION.
    Mr. D. GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether His Majesty's Government is paying the expenses involved in the work of the Committee on Economic Consultation and Co-operation for the British Empire; and, if so, under what Vote it will appear?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): Each of the Governments represented on the Committee is bearing any necessary expenses of its own representatives. The Committee have accepted an offer by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom to arrange for any assistance required from this country in the way of secretarial assistance and office accommodation. Any expenditure not met from existing services will be charged to the Dominion Services Vote.
    Mr. GRENFELL: Is there any reason why this country should pay these expenses for secretariat and staffs for the representatives of the other countries which are coming here?
    Mr. THOMAS: There is no reason why except this—that this is a committee
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    founded as a result of the Ottawa Agreements to see whether it is possible to co-ordinate the whole of the existing agencies. Canada is responsible for calling the committee, and all the Dominions are paying the expenses of their representatives and the least that the British Government could do would be to offer secretarial facilities when the conference is being held in our own country. That is the least we would be expected to do, and that we are doing.

    NEW ZEALAND (RATE OF EXCHANGE).
    Mr. DINGLE FOOTasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether his attention has been called to the recent alteration in the New Zealand rate of exchange from £110 to £125 New Zealand currency for £100 sterling; and whether, in view of the effect such alteration is likely to have on exports from the United Kingdom to New Zealand and in view of the tenor of the Ottawa Agreements, he has made or proposes to make representations upon the subject to His Majesty's Government in New Zealand?
    Mr. THOMAS: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to a similar question on 14th February, of which I am sending him a copy.

    BRITISH INDUSTRIES FAIR.
    Rear-Admiral SUETERasked the
    Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he is aware that at the
    British Industries Fair a purchaser of what he thought was a British-made clock
    found, on reaching his home, that it was made in Switzerland; and whether he willtake steps to see that clocks of British manufacture are sold at the British
    Industries Fair and not those of foreign origin?
    Lieut.-Colonel J. COLVILLE (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department):
    Under the regulations governing participation in the British Industries Fair, all goods to be eligible for exhibition must have been manufatured or produced mainly within the British Empire, and in conformity with this condition, it may have been possible for a clock to be sold at the fair containing a movement of foreign manufacture. The general regulation governing the admissibility of goods for display at the fair as applied to watches and clocks was decided upon some years ago in consultation with the

    1765
    trade associations concerned. In view of developments in the United Kingdom clockmaking industry, it is now proposed to review the position in order to determine whether modification of the regulations is desirable.
    Rear-Admiral SUETER: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that this clock was bought by Admiral Sir Lewis Clinton-Baker from the Riverside Manufacturing Company and that it had the words "Made in Switzerland" on the face of it?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I shall be glad to have any further information which my hon. and gallant Friend can give me, but, as I have said, we are examining the general question with a view to considering whether any modifications of the regulations are desirable.
    Sir COOPER RAWSONasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he proposes to take any action with regard to the American device manufactured at Holyoke, Massachusetts, advertising a product of Detroit, United States of America, and exhibited on Stall B 102 at the British Industries Fair, with a view to keeping a closer check in future on foreign exhibits?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: My hon. Friend will be glad to know that the specimen of paper which he sent me, obtained from Stand B 102 at the recent British Industries Fair, was not displayed there as the advertisement of the product of a foreign firm. One of the exhibits upon this stand was that of a British manufacturer of "dandy rolls" which are used for producing water marks in paper, and the specimen in question illustrates the use of the British firm's rolls by paper makers in the United States of America. A close check is kept to prevent infringement of the regulations of the fair in the manner suggested by my hon. Friend.

    FALSTEE ZEALAND BRIDGE CONTRACT.
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can make any statement as to the restrictions placed by the Treasury upon the raising of capital needed for the construction of the Falster Zealand Bridge?
    Mr. STOURTONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention
    1766
    has been called to the fact that a contract has recently been awarded by the Danish Government to Messrs. Dorman Long for the construction of a £2,000,000 bridge; and if, in view of the importance of this contract, involving an order for £1,000,000 of British steelwork, he will be prepared to make an exception in this case to the general embargo on foreign loans, so that the conditional proviso that part of the sum required is raised in this country can be fulfilled?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hore-Belisha): My right hon. Friend has this question under consideration, but is not yet in a position to make a statement about it.

    IMPORT DUTIES.
    Mr. LOUIS SMITHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the country's nett adverse balance of trade for 1932 is calculated at £39,000,000; and whether, as the restriction of imports of manufactured goods and agricultural produce has so far been achieved more by the reduction of the value of sterling in terms of gold than by the Import Duties, he will take steps to ensure that the Import Duties on manufactured goods and agricultural products are raised correspondingly to the rise in the value of sterling in terms of the currencies of countries still on the Gold Standard?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The adverse balance of payments for 1932 has been estimated by the Board of Trade at £59,000,000. My right hon. Friend must not be taken as agreeing with the assumption underlying my hon. Friend's question that the fall in imports is due more to the reduction in the value of sterling than to Import Duties. As regards the last part of the question, there is a procedure laid down by the Import Duties Act for dealing with changes in the rates of duties and my right hon. Friend sees no reason for modifying it.
    Mr. SMITH: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that already in several industries the Import Duty is insufficiently high to effect the purpose for which it was imposed?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: If that be so, the Import Duties Advisory Committee is the proper body to deal with it.

    SHIPBREAKING (DUTY).
    Mr. BERNAYSasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the 20 per cent, duty payable on British-owned vessels built abroad if conveyed to British ports for breaking up purposes has resulted in ships being taken for demolition to countries where no such tax exists, and a consequent loss of employment for British shipyards; and whether he will revoke the order imposing the said duty?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am not aware that the imposition of a duty on ships imported for the purpose of breaking up has had the effect referred to by the hon. Member. It is, however, open to the interests concerned to make representations to the Import Duties Advisory Committee in regard to the matter.

    EXCHANGE RESTRICTIONS.
    Mr. ROBINSON (for Mr. CHORL-TON)asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has yet been able to make arrangements to overcome the effect on our export trade of the frozen remittances regulations in many countries; and, if not, what action he proposes to take?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The lines on which His Majesty's Government are endeavouring to meet the position are indicated in the replies given to my hon. Friend on the 20th October and 13th February.
    Mr. HAMMERSLEY: Can my right hon. Friend say when the report from the committee which is looking into this matter may be expected?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, Sir, I am afraid I cannot say, but I have no doubt that they are pressing on with their work as rapidly as possible.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    RESERVISTS (PAY).
    Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if, in view of the recent cut in the pay of the reservists, and taking into account that payments are not made in advance and that many reservists are now suffering privations, he will arrange for the payment to be made monthly?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Duff Cooper): In
    1768
    view of the extra work and expense that would be involved in making these payments 12 times a year instead of four as at present, I regret that I am unable to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.

    DISTINGUISHED AND MERITORIOUS SERVICE FUND.
    Brigadier-General SPEARSasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) if he will give the names of the officers in receipt of grants from the Distinguished and Meritorious Service Fund; and the amount of the grant in each case;
    (2) what would be the annual cost of publishing in the Army Estimates the names of the officers receiving grants from the Distinguished and Meritorious Service Fund; and what was the cost of doing so in 1914?
    Mr. COOPER: The list of rewards to officers was removed from Estimates in 1925 at the same time as the list of rewards to Warrant Officers and Non-Com-missioned Officers and Victoria Cross annuitants. This was done as a measure of economy both in printing costs and in clerical labour. I cannot put an exact figure on these costs, but I should be unwilling to restore them, and I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to note that the rewards to officers are now confined to those with limited means which provides an additional reason for not making them public.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    EX-SERVICB MEN.
    Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if in order to support the claims of the unemployed ex-service men, he will issue instructions that those taking part in the present recruiting campaign should recommend to employers that they should give preference to ex-service men and Territorials in offering employment?
    Mr. COOPER: I presume that my hon. Friend refers to the recruiting tour for the Territorial Army undertaken by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and the Director-General of the Territorial Army. This tour is not directly concerned with the employment of ex-service men, but every opportunity is being taken, I understand, to press the claims of the Territorials upon employers.
    Mr. CROOKE: Is the Financial Secretary aware that his Noble Friend is leaving out of his calculations altogether the claims of ex-service men?
    Mr. COOPER: This particular tour is concerned with recruiting for the Territorial Army, and my Noble Friend cannot take into consideration every claim that may be put forward but of course he is in favour of ex-service men as much as Territorials.

    ROYAL COMMISSION (RECOMMENDATIONS).
    Mr. McKEAGasked the Prime Minister when it is intended to introduce legislation to give effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Unemployment Insurance; and whether such legislation will give additional assistance to the depressed areas?
    The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Mr. Baldwin): The recommendations of the Royal Commission are under consideration by the Government. The position in the distressed areas is very closely related to certain of them and must be considered with them. I am unable at the moment to say when legislation will be introduced.
    Mr. McKEAG: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the report of this Commission was published in November last, and that the dalliance of the Government in dealing with it is causing grave dissatisfaction in the depressed areas?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I am aware when the report was published, and, if the hon. Gentleman had any responsibility for promoting legislation in this House, he would not consider three months dalliance.

    SCOTLAND (AGRICULTURAL WORKERS' WAGES).
    Mr. KIRKWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the wage cuts imposed upon shepherds and ploughmen, which reduce the wages of married men to £30 per year with the usual small perquisites, he will take steps to bring such classes under the provisions of the Agricultural Wages Act?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir Godfrey Collins): I think the hon. Member is under a misapprehension as to the current rates of
    1770
    remuneration of married shepherds and ploughmen in Scotland. So far as I am aware the cash wages are not as low in any district as the figure mentioned in the question and in most districts are much higher. Further, in the districts where the cash wages are lowest the value of the allowances or perquisites such as house, meal, milk or potatoes is relatively high and represents a substantial addition to the cash wages. I have no evidence that there is any general desire on the part of Scottish farm servants for amending legislation to extend the provisions of the Agricultural. Wages (Regulation) Act of Scotland.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: If I put before the right hon. Gentleman facts regarding the shepherds in Caithness-shire, who are living under the conditions stated in the question, £30 a year with small perquisites, will he go into the matter and see what he can do to alleviate the terrible conditions which prevail in Caithness?
    Sir G. COLLINS: I shall be glad to look into any facts on the subject which the hon. Member will bring before me.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    HOURS OF WORK (PROSECUTIONS).
    Mr. TINKERasked the Secretary for Mines the number of prosecutions instituted by His Majesty's Inspectors of Mines during the year 1932 for alleged breaches of the 7½ Hours Act, and how many have resulted in convictions?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr, Ernest Brown): Proceedings were taken against one colliery company during the year 1932 in respect of breaches of the law in regard to hours of work, and & conviction was obtained in respect of failure to keep a register in the prescribed manner.
    Mr. TINKER: Is the Secretary for Mines aware that a large amount of overtime is being worked with which, apparently, the inspectors cannot deal? Will he see that the Act is strengthened in order to deal with this matter?
    Mr. BROWN: It depends entirely on what is meant by overtime. It may be-emergency overtime, and that is an entirely different matter. If it is a breach

    1771
    of the law, and the hon. Member has any facts he can put before me, I shall be glad to have them brought to my notice and to act upon them.
    Mr. TINKER: It is the weakness of the present Act, which I want altered.
    Mr. D. GRENFELL: Will the Secretary for Mines give close attention to this and find whether what is regarded as overtime by his inspectors is not a violation of the law?
    Mr. BROWN: There again the issue is determined, as in every case, by facts-Unless hon. Members can bring facts before me, I am not able to make up my mind as to whether there has been a breach of the law or not.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Has the hon. Member looked into the case of the Ollerton Colliery, where 7.3 per cent, overtime has been worked?
    Mr. BROWN: I will have that assertion looked into, but I cannot vouch for the facts. The hon. Member must be responsible for his statement.

    AYRSHIRE COAL (SALES, LIVERPOOL).
    Captain MacANDREWasked the Secretary for Mines if he has yet caused inquiries to be made from the secretary of the Scottish Board with regard to the recent sale of Ayrshire coal in Liverpool; whether the price paid was in accordance with the terms of the Act; and if he will make a statement on the matter?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend that the administration of the schemes is in the hands of the coal owners, and I have no power to intervene. The Central Council of Coal Owners have under consideration an amendment of the central scheme to provide for inter-district co-ordination of prices which would enable cases of this kind to be dealt with. While I have heard allegations that the Scottish pithead price was much below Lancashire prices, there has been no suggestion, so far as I am aware, that the sales of Ayrshire coal in Lancashire have been at prices below the minimum prices fixed by the Scottish Executive Board.
    Captain MacANDREW: Has there been anything in the nature of a breach
    1772
    of the Coal Mines Act as a result of Ayrshire coal being sold in Liverpool?
    Mr. BROWN: I have already said that, as far as I know, prices are not below those fixed by the Scottish Executive Board.
    Captain MacANDREW: Are the Ayrshire coal producers entitled to develop their Lancashire markets?
    Mr. BROWN: The hon. Member is now entering upon a subject which admits of a good deal of argument.

    ROYAL NAVY (DOMINION CONTRIBUTIONS).
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary
    of State for Dominion Affairs the amount contributed by each Dominion towards
    the upkeep of the Navy?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: Apart from the contribution made by New Zealand towards the cost of the Singapore Naval Base, the Dominions do not contribute directly towards the upkeep of the Royal Navy. Most of the Dominions do, however, maintain at their own cost naval forces and establishments. Particulars will be found on pages 295–300 and 463–485 of the current Navy List.
    Mr. MANDER: Is there any prospect of obtaining a contribution more in keeping with the services rendered by the British Navy?
    Mr. THOMAS: If the hon. Member will look at the amount of their contribution towards their own Navy, he will be able to make the right deduction.

    IRISH FREE STATE.
    Mr. JOELasked the Secretary of
    State for Dominion Affairs whether he proposes to recommend additional measures to raise the sum of money equivalent to the sums of money received by the Irish Free State from the land annuities and now confiscated by the Government of the Irish Free State?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 7th March to my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill)

    1773
    and to previous questions on the subject, to which I cannot at present add anything.

    VISITING FORCES (BRITISH COMMONWEALTH) BILL.
    Sir HERBERT SAMUELasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs which of the Dominions have enacted legislation on the lines of the Visiting Forces (British Commonwealth) Bill now before Parliament; whether any other of the Dominions have intimated that they propose to do so; and whether such legislation contains provisions which would deprive members of United Kingdom forces which may visit those Dominions in future of the right they have hitherto enjoyed, if it is alleged that a military court has exceeded its jurisdiction, or otherwise acted illegally, of recourse by writ of habeas corpus to the civil courts of part of the British Commonwealth?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: As regards the first part of the question, legislation on the lines of the Visiting Forces Bill has already been passed by the Parliament of the Union of South Africa. As regards the second part of the question, I understand that similar legislation has recently been introduced into the Canadian Parliament; the question of legislation in other Dominions is still under consideration. As regards the third part, the legislation already passed by the Union Parliament is in terms substantially identical with the terms of the Visiting Forces Bill. I have not yet seen the text of the Bill introduced into the Canadian Parliament, though it is understood that it was the intention of the Canadian Government to introduce legislation in identical terms.
    Sir H. SAMUEL: Will the right hon. 'Gentleman answer the last part of the question, namely, whether such legislation would deprive members of United Kingdom forces visiting these Dominions of the right of recourse by writ of habeas corpus to the civil courts of the Dominions?
    Mr. THOMAS: The object of this particular legislation was clearly to give the Dominions the power of governing their own particular forces according to the circumstances of their own agreements
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    but if my right hon. Friend puts specifically to me whether the legislation denies the right to which he refers, that is a legal point which I cannot answer.
    Sir H. SAMUEL: That is precisely the question which is on the Paper.
    Mr. THOMAS: It is because we have no reason to anticipate that that right will be interfered with that I have given the answer which I have given.

    BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION.
    Mr. DORANasked the Postmaster-
    General whether, in the interests of national economy, he will take steps to
    reduce the amount of the grant to be made to the British Broadcasting Corporation out of public funds in the coming financial year, as recommended
    by the May Economy Committee?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Kingsley Wood): The British Broadcasting Corporation have agreed to make a contribution of £250,000 in respect of the coming financial year; and I desire to add that their action in this matter is appreciated by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself.
    Mr. DORAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this question was first submitted to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and was transferred without any word to me, or any authority; and, in view of the very unsatisfactory replies to this and many other questions, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the Adjournment.
    Mr. MAXTON: Was the right hon. Gentleman's visit to Glasgow last week on behalf of the British Broadcasting Corporation or in connection with his ordinary duties as Postmaster-General?
    Sir K. WOOD: It has nothing to do with the British Broadcasting Corporation.

    KING'S PROCTOR.
    Mr. McKEAGasked the Attorney-
    General the total cost for 1932 of the Department of the King's Proctor, and
    also the number of eases in which the King's Proctor intervened during the
    same year?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Boyd Mierriman): It is not possible to state exactly the total cost of the Department of the King's Proctor as it is a branch of the Treasury Solicitor's office and there is one staff common to both. The total salaries of the staff who are engaged from time to time on the work of the King's Proctor's Department amounted in 1932 to £4,083 4s. 2d. The net expenditure apart from salaries was £5,122 14s. lid. During that period the King's Proctor intervened in 30 cases.
    Mr. McKEAG: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that, quite apart from the question of economy, certain eminent judges of the High Court have expressed themselves in favour of the abolition of this department, and, in those circumstances, will he consider the advisability of abolishing it?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I am
    aware that judges of the High Court from time to time direct the King's Proctor to intervene in cases, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General is not prepared to consider the abolition of the King's Proctor.

  TRANSPORT.

    TRAFFIC COMMISSIONERS (REPORTS).
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONESasked
    the Minister of Transport whether he has received the annual reports of the
    traffic commissioners as provided by Section 65 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930:
    and whether it is his intention to publish such reports or otherwise to make them available to Members of both Houses of Parliament?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Oliver Stanley): The first annual reports of the traffic commissioners covering the period up to the 31st March, 1932, were published last November and copies were then made available for hon. Members through the usual channels.

    MOTOR INSURANCE.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONESasked
    the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that a considerable number of the
    policies of insurance purporting to be issued in accordance with the provisions
    of Part II of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, do not afford a full cover to the owner
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    of the motor vehicle in respect of which the policy is issued; and whether he will take such steps as he may deem desirable for inquiring into the administration of this part of the Act?
    Mr. STANLEY: I am aware that there are insurance policies which do not undertake to cover the policy holder in the event of his using 'his vehicle in a manner or for a purpose excluded by the terms of the policy. It would be impracticable to make all motorists take out policies which afforded them unconditional and universal cover, and it is a matter for the insured person to satisfy himself that the use to which he proposes to put his vehicle is covered by the terms of his policy.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONES: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that cases are constantly occurring in which persons who have been injured on the road find when they endeavour to recover from the driver and owner of the car which has caused the injury that his policy does not cover the case; and will some inquiry be made into the terms of these policies with a view to making them cover, if possible, all the risks on the road which the Road Traffic Act intended should be covered?
    Mr. STANLEY: As I have told the hon. Member, I do not think that it would be practicable to cover all risks, but there are one or two aspects of the matter which I am considering now.

    SEVERN BARRAGE SCHEME.
    Mr. L. SMITHasked the Minister of Transport the policy of the Government in relation to the final report of the Severn Barrage Committee?
    Mr. STANLEY: The report of this committee, which gives the result of a long and intricate inquiry, is at present under consideration by His Majesty's Government. Before coming to any decision the Government naturally desire an opportunity of learning the views of local authorities and other interests concerned.
    Mr. SMITH: Before the hon. Gentleman spends any valuable time in considering this doubtful scheme, will he give consideration to other more useful schemes, in which no financial assistance

    1777
    is required and by which employment can be found, such as the Humber Bridge scheme?
    Mr. STANLEY: I cannot specify any particular scheme, but clearly this scheme will have to be considered in conjunction with other schemes for Government assistance.

    LICENSING ACT (PERMITTED HOURS).
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONESasked
    the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that in certain licensing districts the licensing justices have in the exercise of their powers under Section 1 of the Licensing Act, 1921, fixed permitted hours for the sale of in toxicating liquor during the period of summer time different from the permitted
    hours during the remainder of the year; and whether he can inform the House of
    the number of licensing districts in which this course has been adopted and under
    what statutory authority the licensing justices have made this differentiation?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I am afraid that I have no information as to the number of licensing districts in which the action mentioned has been taken. The last part raises a question of interpretation of the terms of the Statute in regard to which, as the hon. Member may be aware, some difference of opinion exists, and which can only be settled by the decision of a court of law.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONES: With regard to the dilemma in which licensing justices are placed in various parts of the country, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to have this matter cleared up, in the courts if necessary?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I do not think that that is my province.

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    MATERNAL MORTALITY.
    Dr. JOHN WILLIAMSasked the
    Minister of Health whether he will give, for the latest possible year, the five
    highest and five lowest maternal mortality
    1778
    rates in county councils and county boroughs, respectively?
    Captain AUSTIN HUDSON (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. The information asked for for the latest year for which figures are available, namely, 1931, will be found in Table 10 of the Registrar-General's Statistical Review for 1931 (Tables, Part I).

    HOSPITALS.
    Dr. J. WILLIAMSasked the
    Minister of Health if he will furnish a statement for the latest possible date of the numbers and beds in hospitals the lines of the statement given in the
    House of Commons on 4th December, 1930, giving in addition the average cost
    per patient per week in each type of hospital?
    Captain HUDSON: My right hon. Friend will furnish the hon. Member in due course with such information as is available on these points.

    RATES (ASSESSMENTS).
    Mr. TOUCHEasked the Minister
    of Health whether he has now received any recommendation from the Central
    Valuation Committee as to the desirability of issuing a communication to local
    authorities regarding the assessment of houses upon which work has been done
    as a result of local campaigns to relieve unemployment?
    Captain HUDSON: My right hon. Friend's suggestion to the Central Valuation Committee was that they might themselves consider it desirable to address a communication to local authorities and he understands that they have decided to do so.

    ROYAL SEAMEN'S PENSION FUND.
    Sir ROBERT HAMILTONasked the Minister of Health the number of years that a crofter-fisherman would require to serve before he could reasonably expect to be granted a pension under the scheme of pensions now being administered by the governing body of the Royal Seamen's Pension Fund?
    Captain HUDSON: The conditions governing the award of pensions out of the Royal Seamen's Pension Fund are

    1779
    contained in the scheme for the administration of the benefits out of that fund, a copy of which has been placed in the Library in accordance with the hon. Member's request. There is no reason to think that the governing body of the fund, who are responsible for its administration, have departed from the terms of the scheme. If, however, the hon. Member is aware of any case in which he considers that the terms of the scheme have not been observed, and will furnish my right hon. Friend with particulars, he will see that inquiry is made into the matter.
    Sir R. HAMILTONasked the
    Minister of Health whether he is aware that when a pension is refused by the
    governing body of the Royal Seamen's Pension Fund the applicant is not in
    formed of the reason for such refusal; and whether steps can be taken to ensure
    that such reasons are given in all cases?
    Captain HUDSON: My right hon. Friend is informed by the governing body of the Royal Seamen's Pension Fund that it is their normal practice to inform an applicant of the reason for the failure of his application for a pension.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: If I have cases in which no reason is given for refusing an application, may I draw them to the attention of the Minister?
    Captain HUDSON: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be only too happy to receive them.
    Sir R. HAMILTONasked the
    Minister of Health whether it is open to an applicant who has been refused a pension by the governing body of the Royal Seamen's Pension Fund, on the ground
    of an insufficient number of pensions being available, to renew his application
    on a subsequent occasion?
    Sir MURDOCH McKENZIE WOODasked the Minister of Health whether applications for pensions from the Royal Seamen's Pension Fund are entertained from applicants who have been unsuccessful with previous applications; and, if so, whether he can state for the guidance of seamen the conditions under which such subsequent applications are permitted?
    Captain HUDSON: My right hon. Friend is informed by the governing body
    1780
    of the Royal Seamen's Pension Fund that it is their normal practice to advise unsuccessful applicants for pension of their right to submit a subsequent application if there is any probability of such an application being successful.

    HOUSING (BUILDING MATERIALS).
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Minister of Health whether he has any information as to the principal classes of foreign materials which local authorities find it necessary to use, especially in regard to schemes of housing and slum clearance?
    Captain HUDSON: The Ministry of Health have urged local authorities to make use, to the utmost extent practicable, of goods and materials of home and Empire origin, and any right hon. Friend has reason to believe that this practice is being very generally observed, but no general information of the kind suggested is supplied to him.

    FLOODS, DON VALLEY.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture what communications he has received from local authorities in the Don Valley area relating to floods; and will he state the nature of his reply?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Major Elliot): Various communications have been received from the urban district council of Bentley-with-Arksey as to the recent flooding in that area. I do not think, however, I can say more than that every effort is being made to secure the passage into law of the Doncaster Area Drainage Bill with" as little delay as possible.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: In the reply to the communication from the Bentley Council, was any promise of financial assistance from the Treasury made, or any other assistance promised that may secure an early undertaking of this work?
    Major ELLIOT: No promise of any financial assistance from the Treasury has been made. The main desire of the council which it pressed upon us, was that the law should be put into force as quickly as possible.

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    DEFENCE EXPENDITURE.
    Mr. MANDERasked the Prime Minister whether consideration will be given to the question of effecting large economies in expenditure by substituting the Royal Air Force for the Territorial Army for the defence of the country from invasion?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The defence of this country from invasion is a matter of cooperation between the three defence services, and is kept constantly under review.

    BEER AND TEA DUTIES.
    Mr. LEWISasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what would be the estimated loss of revenue in a full year if one penny were taken of the Beer Duty;
    (2) What would be the estimated gain in revenue in a full year if an additional tax of 2d. per pound were levied on foreign tea and an additional tax of Id. per pound were levied on Empire tea?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: My hon. Friend will realise that to estimate the gain or loss involved in changes of taxation it is first necessary to estimate the yield of taxes on the existing basis. This is usually reserved for the Budget statement and my right hon. Friend is not prepared at the present time to commit himself to figures in regard to next year's estimates of revenue: still less to the effect of hypothetical changes of taxation.
    Mr. THORNE: Can the hon. Gentleman state what it would cost the Exchequer if we took a penny a pint off beer?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: No, Sir.
    Mr. STOURTONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in order to counter the heavy decline in beer consumption, he will consider reducing the duty upon the standard barrel by such a sum as would enable the price of beer to be reduced by 2d. a pint if the brewers are prepared to bear 25 per cent, of the estimated loss of revenue to the Exchequer?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: My right hon. Friend has noted the suggestion.
    Mr. STOURTON: In considering this question, will the Chancellor of the Exchequer bear in mind that it would be well worth while to deal with the matter
    1782
    boldly, for whereas a reduction of one penny a pint would be a step in the right direction, a reduction of 2d. would so enormously increase consumption as to make good a large proportion of estimated loss of revenue?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I will call my right hon. Friend's attention to what my hon. Friend has said.

    INCOSCS TAX (CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government propose to adopt the recommendations of the committee appointed to inquire into the position of co-operative societies in relation to Income Tax?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Questions involving taxation are Budget matters and my right hon. Friend cannot anticipate the Budget statement.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: In the interests of the safety of the National Government, can the hon. Gentleman make an early statement?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: That interest is well preserved.

    TRUSTEE SECURITIES (NEW AND CONVERSION ISSUES).
    Mr. LEWISasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the restrictions on optional conversion issues which rank as trustee securities and involve either underwriting or an invitation to the public to subscribe new cash will be removed?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: New issues of securities of the trustee class are being made rapidly; there have been about a dozen in the last six or seven weeks. The limited restriction referred to in the question is necessary to prevent congestion of the market and my right hon. Friend is not in a position to indicate when it can be withdrawn. I take this opportunity of indicating that the restriction does not prevent local authorities in this country from issuing stock for the purpose of funding mortgages, subject to agreement with the Bank of England as to date and amount of issue.

    WHEAT PRICES.
    Sir M. WOOD (for Mr. GRAHAM WHITE)asked the President of the Board of Trade what are the prices of

    1783
    wheat in local currency and in terms of gold at the latest date for which figures are available in Great Britain, Belgium, France, Germany, and Italy?

    The following statement shows the prices, so far as they are available:

    Home-grown Wheat.

    —

    Description,

    Date of Quotation.

    Price in local currency.

    Price in Gold £ per cwt.

    Great Britain

    …

    English "Gazette Average."

    March 4

    5s. 2d. per cwt

    0·184

    Belgium*

    …

    —

    —

    —

    —

    France

    …

    Official price at Station or quay, Paris.

    March 7

    104 francs per 100 kilograms.

    0·421

    Germany

    …

    Official price at Station, Berlin.

    March 4

    211·5–212 Reicbmarks per metric ton.

    0·525

    Italy

    …

    Soft wheat. Turin (of home origin) free ex station.

    Feb. 4

    104–110 lire per 100 kilograms.

    0·600

    Imported Wheat, Canadian (Manitoba).

    Great Britain

    …

    No. 2 spot, Liverpool

    March 7

    5s. 7½d. per 100 lbs.

    0·200

    Belgium

    …

    No. 2 spot, delivered terms, Antwerp.

    March 7

    5–10 Dutch florins per 100 kilograms.

    0·212

    France*

    …

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Germany

    …

    No. 2 c.i.f. Hamburg

    March 4

    5·05 Dutch florins per 100 kilograms.

    0·210

    Italy*

    …

    —

    —

    —

    —

    * Comparable information not available.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS (STANDING ORDERS AND DIVISION LISTS).
    Sir BASIL PETO: I desire to ask you, Mr. Speaker, a question of which you will have had notice, and that is whether you have an announcement to make to the House about the recommendation made by the Select Committee on Procedure that a technical committee should be appointed to revise the Standing Orders?
    Mr. SPEAKER: In accordance with the recommendations which were made by the Select Committee on Procedure, I have appointed a small technical committee composed of the following: Sir Dennis Herbert, Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, who has consented to act as Chairman, Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson, Sir John Ganzoni, Mr. Neil Maclean, Sir Murdoch McKenzie Wood, and Sir Horace Dawkins, Clerk of the House of Commons. Their terms of reference will be the following:
    " To examine the Standing Orders relating to Public Business, and to make such sug-
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: As the answer involves a table of figures, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    gestions as they may think fit for the removal of ambiguities, for the repeal of those Orders that are found to be obsolete, and for the amending of others to bring them into conformity with present practice."
    Sir B. PETO: May I also ask you, Mr. Speaker, a question arising out of one that I asked 10 days ago, namely, whether you have yet had an opportunity of consulting the parties in the House as to the adoption of the recommendation of the Publication and Debates Committee that in the interests of economy Division Lists should not be printed in the Votes and Proceedings of the House?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Since the hon. Baronet put that question to me a short time ago I have, in accordance with my promise, ascertained the views of the various parties in the House as to whether they would agree to the suggested economy by discontinuing the printing of Division Lists in the Votes as well as in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I have failed to get agreement to this

    1785
    change from all the parties, and so I am afraid that that economy cannot be effected.
    Mr. THORNE: May I ask whether, in your opinion, the terms of reference will give the Committee power to examine and to report as to what time the House shall meet and at what time it shall adjourn?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The terms of reference which I have given to the Committee will not enable them to alter the Standing Orders, but merely to clarify them and to bring them into conformity with present practice. It would not enable them to make any such recommendation.
    Mr. THORNE: Would they be entitled to recommend that the House should meet earlier and adjourn earlier?
    Mr. SPEAKER: No.
    Mr. THORNE: I think they ought to be able to do so.
    Mr. MAXTON: Arising out of the announcement of the appointment of the Committee, may I ask you, Sir, if there will be a Motion on the Paper in the ordinary way setting up this Committee, and if it will be in order for those of us who sit in this part of the House to move that one other person be added to the Committee, so that the very definite views which we have upon the Standing Orders may find expression in that Committee?
    Mr. SPEAKER: No, this will not appear on the Order Paper. It was a recommendation to me personally to set up a Committee.
    Mr. MAXTON: Will you be prepared to receive privately representations on the lines of my suggestion?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I am always prepared to receive representations from any quarter of the House.
    Sir H. SAMUEL: With regard to the proposed economy in not printing the Division Lists in the Votes and Proceedings, will there be any opportunity for the House to express an opinion as a House on that most desirable proposal?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That would hardly be for me to say. A Motion dealing with this question could no doubt be put down.
    Sir JOSEPH LAMB: Would it be possible for the House to know which party it was that did not agree to this economy being introduced; and may I also ask whether the question was considered of discontinuing to print the Division List in the Votes and Proceedings but to continue them in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The latter part of the question is exactly the point upon which I asked the views of the different parties. As regards which party did not agree, that does not concern me—as long as one party did not agree.
    Sir J. LAMB: Is there any way in which the House can know as a House which party it was?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Not from me.

    PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
    Sir ARTHUR STEEL-MAITLAND:
    May I have the leave of the House to make a personal statement? My attention has been drawn to a statement which I made in the Debate on Carlton House Terrace about Messrs. Pinchin Johnson and Co., to the effect that that company was controlled for all practical purposes by foreign capital. The managing director of the company has informed me that the statement was not justified, and has shown me facts which convince me that the information on which I made it is incorrect. I should dislike to be the author of any inaccurate statement in this House, and not to correct it when asked to do so by those whom, it affects, and I therefore wish to withdraw that statement unreservedly, and to say that only a very small fraction of the shareholding is in foreign ownership, and therefore I am satisfied that the control of the company is for all practical purposes wholly British.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. Baldwin. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 253; Noes, 39.

Division No. 80.]

AYES.

[3.30 p.m.

Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

Fremantle, Sir Francis

North, Captain Edward T.

Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

Fuller, Captain A. G.

Palmer, Francis Noel

Albery, Irving James

Ganoni, Sir John

Patrick, Colin M.

Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

Peake, Captain Osbert

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Pearson, William G.

Apsley. Lord

Gluckstein, Louis Halle

Perkins, Walter R. D.

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

Petherlck, M.

Balllie, Sir Adrian W. M.

Golf, Sir Park

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Goldle, Noel B.

Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'prn, Bilston)

Balfour, Capt, Harold (1. of Thanet)

Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

Pickering, Ernest H.

Balniel, Lord

Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

Pike, Cecil F.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Granville, Edgar

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Barrle, Sir Charles Coupar

Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

Ralkes, Henry V. A. M.

Beauchamp, sir Brograve Campbell

Graves, Marjorle

Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Porttm'th.C.)

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

Belt. Sir Alfred L.

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Ramsbotham, Herwald

Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

Grlmston, R. V,

Ramsden, Sir Eugene

Bernays, Robert

Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

Rankin, Robert

Blrchall, Major Sir John Dearman

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Rathbone, Eleanor

Bllndell, James

Hales, Harold K.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Borodale, Viscount.

Hamilton, Sir George (llford)

Rea, Walter Russell

Boulton, W. W.

Hamilton, Sir R.W.(Orkney & Z'tl'nd)

Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

Hammersley, Samuel S.

Reid. William Allan (Derby)

Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

Hanbury, Cecil

Renter, John R.

Boyd-Cerpenter, Sir Archibald

Hanley, Dennis A.

Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

Brass, Captain Sir William

Harbord, Arthur

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

Hartland, George A.

Robinson, John Roland

Brocklebank, C. E. R,

Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Brown. Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

Brown, Ernest (Lelth)

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Ross, Ronald D.

Browne, Captain A. C.

Hepworth, Joseph

Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)

Runclman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Burgln, Or. Edward Leslie

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

Runge, Norah Cecil

Burnett, John George

Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Cadogan, Hon. Edward

Hore-Bellsha, Leslle

Russell, Richard John (Eddlsbury)

Calne, G. R. Hall-

Hornby, Frank

Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

Howard, Tom Forrest

Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Llverp'l)

Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

Salmon, Sir Isidore

Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

Hurd, Sir Percy

Salt, Edward W.

Caporn, Arthur Cecil

Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nhant)

Castlereagh, viscount

Jesson. Major Thomas E.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

Savery, Samuel Servlnnton

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Kerr, Hamilton W.

Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh. S.)

Kirkpatrick, William M.

Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Knebwarth, Viscount

Skelton, Archibald Noel

Clarry, Reginald George

Lamb, Sir Joseph Qulnton

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

Leckle, J. A.

Smithers. Waldron

Colman, N. C. D.

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Sotheron-Estcourt. Captain T. E.

Conant, R. J. E.

Levy, Thomas

Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

Cook, Thomas A.

Lewis, Oswald

Spencer, Captain Richard A.

Cooke, Douglas

Llddall. Walter S.

Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

Cooper. A. Duff

Lindsay, Noel Ker

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

Copeland, Ida

Lister. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

Steel-Maltland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Courtauld, Major John Sewell

Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)

Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

Lloyd, Geoffrey

Storey, Samuel

Craven-Ellis, William

Locker-Lampson, Rt.Hn. G.(Wd. Gr'n)

Stourton, Hon. John J.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Crooke, J. Smedley

Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

Culverwell, Cyril Tom

Lyons, Abraham Montagu

Sutcliffe, Harold

Dalkeith, Earl of

Mabane, William

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Davison. Sir William Henry

MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)

Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

Dawson, Sir Philip

MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

McCorquodale, M. S.

Todd. A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

Dickie, John P.

McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

Touche, Gordon Cosmo

Conner, P. W.

McKeag, William

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Doran, Edward

McKie. John Hamilton

Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

Drewe, Cedric

Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

Wallace. Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

Duckworth, George A. V.

McLean, Major Sir Alan

Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

Maltland, Adam

Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Duggan, Hubert John

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour.

Dunglass, Lord

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Wells, Sydney Richard

Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

Weymouth, Viscount

Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

Elmtey, Viscount

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Wills, Wilfrid D.

Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

Wlndsor-Clivei Lieut.-Colonel George

Essenhlgh. Reginald Clare

Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

Everard, W. Lindsay

Morrison, William Shepherd

Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzle (Banff)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Muirhead, Major A. J.

Young, Ernest J. (Middiesbrough, E)

Fleming, Edward Lascelles

Munro, Patrick

TELLERS FOR THE AYES —

Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

Captain Austin Hudson and

Fox, Sir Gifford

Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

Commander Southby.

1788

1789

NOES.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

Grundy, Thomas W.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Maxtan, James

Batey, Joseph

Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

Parkinson, John Allen

Buchanan, George

Hicks, Ernest George

Price, Gabriel

Cape, Thomas

Hirst, George Henry

Thorne, William James

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Jenkins, Sir William

Tinker, John Joseph

Cove, William G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphity)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Daggar, George

Kirkwood, David

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Davles, David L. (Pontypridd)

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

Dobble, William

Logan, David Gilbert

Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

Edwards, Charles

Lunn, William

Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

McEntee, Valentine L.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

McGovern, John

Mr. John and Mr. Groves.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE A.
  Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Comimittee of Selection; That they
  1790
  had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Assurance Companies (Winding up) Bill [Lords]): The Attorney-General, Dr. Burgin, Mr. Campbell-Johnston, Mr. James Duncan, Mr. Dingle Foot, Mr. Haslam, Mr. Lennox-Boyd, Mr. Meller, Mr. Milne, and Major Milner.

  STANDING COMMITTEE B.
  Mr. William Nicbolson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Wheat Act (1932) Amendment Bill): Sir John Sandeman Allen, Lieut.-Colonel Sandeman Allen, Mr. Banfield, Mr. Brocklebank, Mr. Buchan-Hepburn, Major Elliot, Lieut.-Colonel Heneage, Major Muirhead, Mr. Ormsby-Gore, and Mr. Graham White.

  SCOTTISH STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the False Oaths (Scotland) Bill): Mr. Buchan-Hepburn, Colonel Crookshank, Mr. Daggar, Mr. Law, Mr. McKeag, Sir Alan McLean, Mr. Munro, Mr. Ross Taylor, Lord Colum Crichton-Stuart, and Mr. Whiteside.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY
  AIR ESTIMATES, 1933.
  SIR PHILIP SASSOON'S STATEMENT.
  Order for Committee read.
  3.40 p.m.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Philip Sassoon): I beg to move, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  The need for economy, which left so clear a mark upon the Estimates which I had the honour to introduce into this House last year, is no less pressing to-day, and has had a similar influence upon the Estimates which are now before the House. The effort to effect savings under every head without unduly impairing efficiency, and, above all, without doing anything which might react upon the safety of flying personnel, has been unremitting. Of the success of this unremitting effort the House can judge from the figures now before them; for, as has been pointed out in my Noble Friend's Memorandum accompanying these Estimates, the apparent rise of £26,000 in the net figure to a total of £17,426,000 actually conceals an approximate further reduction of £340,000. And I would remind hon. Members that this follows on a reduction of no less than £700,000 last year, which made the achievement of additional savings in expenditure this year a singularly difficult task. They have, indeed, only been rendered possible by such drastic measures as the decision to close down for the time being one of the four flying training schools; and I venture to suggest that those responsible for the administration of the Royal Air Force deserve great credit for making an even larger contribution to the financial exigencies of the Exchequer this year than last, which, I am bound to add, they have not done without grave anxiety.
  Risks have had to be taken. As the House will have observed, no new units have been formed either at home or abroad during the past year, and no provision is made for new units in the present Estimates. The Home Defence Force remains at a total of 42 Squadrons, of which 13 are non-Regular, and 10 Regular Squadrons are still required to complete
  1796
  the modest programme which was approved as long ago as 1923, and which is already several years overdue for completion. The decision to hold this ten-year old programme in suspense for another year is a practical proof of the wholehearted desire of His Majesty's Government to promote a successful issue of the deliberations of the Disarmament Conference. Pending the outcome of the conference, they are once again prepared to accept the continuance of the serious existing disparity between the strength of the Royal Air Force and that of the air services of the other great nations.
  The House is familiar with the fact that, in terms of first-line strength, the Royal Air Force stands to-day only fifth on the list of Air Powers, although, at the end of the late War, we could with justice claim to take, not fifth, but first place, when all the factors which go to make up air strength were taken into account; for in 1918 we had a larger number of trained flying personnel and a larger total number of aircraft than any other nation. The House will also remember that, while air expenditure in this country has shown a steady decline since 1925, other nations have very largely increased their outlay on air services over the same period. The decision, therefore, again to postpone the overtaking of arrears on a modest programme which was deemed to be the minimum necessary in 1923, when the strength of other Air Powers was considerably less than it is to-day, is a gesture the importance of which will not, I hope, be overlooked.
  The House will hardly expect me to review or comment at any length upon the deliberations in which the Disarmament Conference is still engaged. It is most earnestly to be hoped that they will, at the very least, result in a satisfactory agreement for the limitation and reduction of air armaments which will remove the menace of their competitive development. The air policy of this country is, and has always been, as I have pointed out on previous occasions, conspicuously moderate and unprovocative, and, as far as we are concerned, we are eager to cooperate in all practicable measures for removing the menace of which I have spoken from the realm of possibility. Nevertheless, while air forces exist, air power is as vital to our great Empire as sea power, and we cannot afford to neglect it. The House will recall the pro-

  1797
  nouncement of my right hon. Friend the Lord President, made last November, that the kind of disarmament which would leave the disparity between our air strength and the air strengths of other nations relatively as great as it is to-day does not recommend itself to His Majesty's Government.
  The measures of air disarmament which we earnestly desire to see effected are such as will leave civilised countries with the minimum strength of aircraft necessary to ensure, firstly, national safety at home, and, secondly, the maintenance of law and order and the protection and development of communications in more backward territories overseas. For these latter purposes air power has finally established itself as an instrument which is at once humane, economical and incomparably effective, a fact to which all the great political officers who have had occasion to employ it over the past decade have borne unanimous and convincing testimony. The final form that these measures will take must depend upon the outcome of the Disarmament Conference, whose discussions no one will wish to prejudice by anything said in this House.
  I do not think the House will expect me this year to offer any very detailed comments on the finance of the several Votes which make up these Estimates. I shall be happy to deal, to the best of my ability, with any questions hon. Members may have to raise at a later stage of this Debate. Meantime I will only offer a few words of explanation in supplement of what my Noble Friend has said in his Memorandum. Before, however, I turn to the individual Votes, I should like to make a passing -acknowledgment of the labours of the Private Members' Economy committee, and, more particularly, the Sub-Committee, which was presided over by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow (Sir I. Salmon). I need hardly say that the Air Council have given, and will continue to give, to the recommendations of that Committee the very careful attention which they merit. I should like to say, in particular, with reference to their recommendation that there should be even closer co-ordination between the fighting Services in the obtaining of supplies, etc., that the Air Ministry has always made a very extensive use of agency services. Indeed, if I were to de-
  1798
  tail in full the various supplies which the Royal Air Force obtains through the agency of such Departments as the Admiralty, the War Office and the Office of Works, I should have to devote a substantial part of my speech to this subject.
  The apparent increase in Vote 1—the Personnel Vote—is due almost wholly to a bookkeeping 'adjustment, namely, the disappearance of an Appropriation-in-Aid from Middle East Votes in respect of expenditure in Iraq, in future to be borne directly on Air Votes. Vote 2—Nontechnical Stores, etc.—shows the largest proportionate drop of any Vote, due partly to measures of economy and partly to the ability to budget on a basis of abnormally low prices. Vote 3—Technical Equipment, etc.—shows at first sight a heavy decline of almost £150,000. This is, however, but a small percentage of the net total of the Vote, namely, £7,203,000, and the many hon. Members who follow with close interest the equipment of the force with aircraft 'and engines will, I do not doubt, be relieved to observe that sub-head A of the Vote —which covers the provision of aeroplanes, seaplanes, engines and spares—is only, reduced by the negligible amount of £2,000. It is under other 'and less vital heads that the bulk of the saving has been secured.
  The total of Vote 4—Works and Buildings—also shows considerable reduction, despite the provision of £30,000 for commencing work on the new station that is to be built in Iraq under the terms of the Treaty. There is a great deal of overdue rebuilding which will have to be taken in hand when financial considerations allow. On Vote 6 there is also a considerable reduction, especially in connection with the School of Technical Training at Halton, the provision for which is down by £27,000, or nearly 15 per cent. This is due to the far-reaching changes that are taking place in the manning system of the Royal Air Force. A comprehensive review is taking place of the whole personnel of the Service. The most highly skilled trades have been dealt with first, as my Noble Friend has explained in his Memorandum. Actually, the principal change that is taking place is the amalgamation of the two separate trades of fitter and rigger into a single combined trade of fitter-rigger, which is the first

  1799
  step in a new programme which, I hope, will lead to vastly improved careers for those key men and also to considerable economies in the long run. The introduction of the use of light aircraft at the civilian schools which undertake the training of reserve pilots and other measures, have resulted in a decrease of £52,000 in Vote 7. The apparent increase on Vote 9, like that on Vote 1, is due to a bookkeeping transfer from Middle East Votes. It would otherwise have shown a decline. Apart from an automatic rise in the non-effective Vote, the only Vote to show a true rise which is in proportion substantial is Vote 8, the Vote for Civil Aviation. This is due to providing for the extension of Imperial Airways existing Indian line to Australia to which I shall refer later.
  Before passing to the usual review of the work of the Royal Air Force and the development of civil aviation, there is a matter of what I may perhaps term a domestic nature to which I feel sure the House would like me to make a brief reference. At the end of the present financial year the Marshal of the Royal Air Force, Sir John Salmond, relinquishes at his own request his appointment of Chief of the Air Staff, with the characteristic desire that it will help the flow of promotion throughout the Service. I need not remind the House of the very great services which this distinguished officer rendered to the Royal Air Force and to the country during the War. By his work in the difficult years since 1918, during which it has been necessary, painfully and laboriously to reorganise the whole of the Air Force anew, he ha,8 laid the Air Force still further under his debt and, indeed, has left his mark upon every aspect of its activities.
  Nineteen thirty-two has been a year of consolidation rather than of innovation, but it has not been unmarked by incidents of interest and evidence of continued progress. Aviation, like everything else, has had to be ridden on the tight rein—or should I say piloted at reduced throttle?—of the prevailing financial stringency. Nevertheless, when it comes to giving the House a review of the events of the past 12 months, once again the difficulty is rather more what to leave out than what to include. The close personal touch that is maintained
  1800
  between those who are responsible for the higher control and direction of the Air Force and the units of which it is composed was once again evidenced by the successful tour of the air stations of the Middle East which was undertaken by the Secretary of State at the beginning of the year. Leaving Croydon on 11th January, my Noble Friend, in the course of a three week's journey, visited the Air Force units in Egypt, Transjordan, Palestine and Iraq, covering in all some 8,000 miles. At the same time, he was able to form a very good impression of the ever-increasing importance of civil aviation to those countries of wide spaces and indifferent land communications. It would seem from his experience that business men, officials and others are becoming more and more accustomed to look upon air transport as the normal means of travel to and from England and to find that they not only save a great deal of time by it but money as well. My Noble Friend was also able to bring back a first hand account of the keenness, efficiency and good morale of the Air Force units. To quote his own words on his return,
  " As soon as the boundary into Asia is passed, the Royal Air Force becomes the symbol of British power."
  Early in the year there occurred in Northern Iraq one of those examples of the police work of the Royal Air Force to which my Noble Friend drew attention. The suppression of a turbulent tribal chief, secure in the savage wild-ness of a district where the mountains go up to some 10,000 feet and where road communications are practically non-existent, presented a very difficult problem. The local ground forces sent to dislodge him failed to reach their objective, and parties of them became cut off from their supplies and found themselves very short of food and ammunition. The Air Force was then called in to co-operate. Its first task was to succour these parties of isolated ground forces. Over l½ tons of food were dropped in a single day by five aircraft for the relief of these isolated forces. The aircraft made repeated journeys to and fro between Mosul and the scene of operations. Two other aircraft conveyed and dropped from the air a further two tons of blankets and other supplies for the use of another marooned contingent. Proclamations calling upon the tribesmen to surrender, and giving

  1801
  them notice that otherwise air action would have to be taken against them, were broadcast in the vernacular from a troop carrying machine which had been fitted with a high powered loud speaker. As a matter of fact, air operations had to be undertaken later on against a few recalcitrant sections and success was ultimately achieved.
  In the course of these operations there occurred an incident which admirably illustrates the coolness, adaptability and resource of the Air Force personnel. An aircraftman, who was acting as wireless operator, had the misfortune to fall through the fuselage of his machine. To say that he rose to the occasion, would be to employ a metaphor hardly applicable to the situation. Anyhow, he managed to open his parachute and landed safely. In no way unnerved by his mishap or by the fact that he had alighted in hostile territory, he betook himself at once, aided by his knowledge of the country, gained on previous service, to the nearest post occupied by the Iraq Army, and there this unpremeditated messenger from Mars took complete control of the wireless station and was able to send information as to the course of the operations which proved of great value to Air Headquarters.
  A very interesting flight was that undertaken by five aircraft of No. 2 Indian Wing. These aircraft flew from Risalpur to Gilgit, a distance of some 300 miles, flying nearly the whole time at a height of over 10,000 feet and passing very close to some of the highest peaks of the Himalayas. They stayed three days at Gilgit and took the political agent and many of the local chiefs for flights. Apart from the operational and technical interest of this flight over such extremely mountainous country, its political interest and significance was considerable. Many of the areas which were visited from Gilgit had never previously been flown over by aircraft and they were inhabited by tribes who still held that aircraft were a myth. It is also interesting to observe that the journey between Risalpur and Gilgit occupied two hours and 20 minutes—a journey which would have taken 17 days march on foot.
  Another operation which contains interesting and important lessons was the transport of a battalion of British infantry by air from Egypt to Iraq. The
  1802
  House will remember that in the course of last summer unrest arose among the Assyrian Levies in Iraq, and, as a measure of precaution, it was desired to send a small contingent of British infantry at short notice to that country. Those troops were not required to undertake active operations, but were simply to exercise a stabilising influence on, and, if necessary, to replace the Levies for the time being. Large troop-carrying aircraft from Nos. 70 and 216 Squadrons were employed to convey 562 officers and men of the 1st Northamptonshire Regiment, with all their necessary equipment over a distance of 800 miles in less than a week. The work was carried out in the height of summer under very difficult climatic conditions, and was accomplished without any untoward incident. In no other way could assistance have been brought in such strength and at such short notice. If I may quote my Noble Friend again, the sudden arrival of this battalion of British troops, as it were from the skies, impressed the Middle East as something almost superhuman, and there is no doubt that the moral effect of this example of the long arm of the British Government was very considerable. I particularly welcome, too, this episode as a very effective piece of close and cordial cooperation between the Army and the Royal Air Force undertaken to achieve a common purpose.
  In addition to these activities, undertaken at short notice and for a specific purpose, the Royal Air Force has again carried out a series of long-distance flights for comparatively routine reasons, but which actually have contributed very much to the development of air communications. As these main flights are mentioned in the White Paper, I will not weary the House by recapitulating them. In all these activities the units of the Royal Air Force are performing work which, though it may primarily be inspired by military needs, is yet at the same time effecting results of a far wider and more permanent significance. They are carrying peace and order into distant lands where previously force has been the only rule, and they are opening up the way for civil transport lines of the future. The work that they are doing belongs to the same order of beneficent and creative activities as those which were once

  1803
  carried out by the road - making legionaries of the Roman Empire. Now, as then, the development of communication means the introduction of the blessings of an ordered society, and of security for life and peaceful industry in areas of the world where hitherto the life of man has been "nasty, brutish and short."
  Here, if the House will allow me, I should like to say a few words about an aspect both of Service and civil aviation which, I think, is insufficiently understood. If one pauses to balance the accounts of aviation, one must readily admit that there is a big potential debit. But there is also a vast credit side, too, and that credit is growing day by day. It is not easy to appreciate in these islands where there are ample—some might say too ample—means of communication and transport, the veritable revolution which the coming of the aeroplane has wrought in the life of those whom fortune has taken to the remote corners of the world. For example, settlers in the back-blocks of Canada and Australia have not only been brought into far closer touch with their kith and kin at home, but their daily life has been immensely eased and improved, and the amenities of civilisation brought to the very door. To take a single illustration, countless lives of men, women and children have been saved by the provision of surgical and medical aid where otherwise accident or illness would have entailed fatal consequences.
  Nor is it only civil aviation that has conferred and is increasingly conferring, such great benefits upon humanity. In my speech last year I referred to what I described as the "productive" side of the work of the Royal Air Force in those backward territories where, mo doubt, its presence is necessary and essential for the maintenance of peace. It is a fact which is not generally recognised that the Royal Air Force is quietly and without advertisement taking in its stride daily a vast amount of pacific and productive work. I have just been reading reports from the overseas Commands of the flying that has been carried out there during the past year, and I confess I was amazed at the long tale of their variegated and fruitful activities. Let me give a few instances—conveyance of sur-
  1804
  gical aids: to sheikhs in the deserts of Iraq and on the inhospitable shores of the Persian Gulf, carriage to remote native villages of anti-cholera and anti-typhoid vaccines, reconnaissance to give flood warnings in India and Iraq, the supply of food to famine-stricken tribes in Transjordan, mapping and survey work in Africa, Iraq, Transjordan, Burma, the Straits Settlements, Siam and elsewhere, the discovery of uncharted reefs, locust fighting, fishery protection, searching for lighters adrift in the China Sea, conveyance of political officers and civil mails to isolated British communities. These are but random samples. Moreover, it is the scale of this work that is so striking. Take the single squadron at Aden. In 1932 it flew in all some 430,000 miles; of these, about 176,000 miles—or over 40 per cent, of the squadron's whole time in the air—were flown, not on police work or patrols or active operations, but actually on such pacific and productive activities as I have described.
  I pass now to the principal long-distance flight of the year, that by which a few weeks ago Squadron-Leader Gay-ford and Flight-Lieutenant Nicholetts secured for Great Britain the long-distance record for a non-stop flight. The successful flight of 5,340 miles from Cran-well to Walvis Bay was the direct result of careful and systematic preparation on the part of all those responsible for the construction and preparation of the machine and engine, combined with skilful piloting and navigation on the part of the two pilots. I know that the congratulations of the House will go out to all who have assisted in securing this success. As a result of this, Great Britain is now the holder of the three principal aviation records—that of speed, gained after the Schneider Contest in 1931; that of height, gained by Flight-Lieutenant Uwins, who last year flew to a height of 43,976 feet, that is to say, nearly 15,000 feet higher than the top of Mount Everest, in a Vickers "Vespa" aeroplane with a Bristol "Pegasus" engine. Now we have this record of distance. The fact that Great Britain holds these three key records is a final proof of the excellence of British design and construction, and is bound to have a very beneficial effect upon the market for British aircraft abroad. I wish here to

  1805
  pay a passing tribute to the skill, courage and endurance of those private individuals, both men and women—their names are household words, and I need not repeat them—who, during the course of the last 12 months, have carried out a series of successful solitary longdistance flights.
  In the course of gaining the distance record, as of gaining the speed record 18 months ago, a great mass of scientific and technical data have been acquired which will be of immense value to aviation generally. Progress in scientific research and technical development goes on continuously so far as money will allow, and advances have been made in many directions during the past 12 months, in spite of the very heavy handicap imposed by the strictly limited amount of money available. I should like briefly to acknowledge the debt which all those who are interested in aeronautical aviation and aeronautical science owe to Sir Richard Glazebrook. Sir Richard has been associated with the scientific side of aviation since 1909, and ever since the first institution of the Aeronautical Research Committee, which took the place of the Advisory Commitee of Aeronautics 13 years ago, he has been its chairman, as he was of the earlier body. I regret to say that he is retiring from this office at the end of the present month. His tireless energy and his wise counsel have been of immense service to successive Secretaries of State.
  The House will remember that last year it was decided, in the interest of economy, to break up the R.100 and curtail airship work to a minimum. Meanwhile a "watching brief" is being held at Cardington by a small staff who collate airship information from abroad. As a result primarily, I suppose, of economic causes, there has been a definite slowing down of airship programmes both in America and in Germany; but both countries have offered every facility to our own experts to follow what they are doing and to take part in the flights carried out by the "Akron" in the United States and the "Graf Zeppelin" in the case of Germany.
  Despite the inevitable effect of the financial depression, the past year has nevertheless been a period of definite progress in civil aviation. In 1932 Imperial Airways' services connected more than 100 European cities by air with
  1806
  London and just over 41,500 passengers were carried by the company's aircraft in and out of Croydon, as compared with approximately 20,600 in 1931. This increase of over 100 per cent, in so difficult a year is surely a noteworthy achievement. On the Empire routes, for the six months ended September, 1932, the passenger traffic showed an increase over 1931 of more than 50 per cent. Mail loads also increased considerably during 1932, the Christmas mails surpassing all previous records. During 1932 Imperial Airways aircraft flew nearly 6,000 miles a day and during every hour of the 24 somewhere along their 12,000 miles of routes a machine was in the air carrying passengers, mails and freight. Since its inception, the company's machines have now flown 10,000,000 miles and have carried over 200,000 passengers and more than 6,000 tons of mails, parcels. and freight. From the aspect of reliability, the figure for flights cancelled has fallen from 23.25 per cent, in 1924 to 2.89 per cent, in 1932.
  As regards the future, the question of establishing a regular weekly air mail service between England and Australia in extension of the England-India service has been the subject of active discussion with the Commonwealth and Indian authorities during the past year. A provisional arrangement has been come to with the Government of India regarding the operation of the Indian section of the route, arid, unless unforeseen difficulties occur, it is hoped that the Service will be commenced in the late summer or autumn. Meanwhile the Service to the Cape is increasing both in regularity and in popularity. It is hoped before very long to reduce materially the time taken in transit, and also to increase the facilities offered by feeder lines along the main route. So far, therefore, as concerns British commercial air transport, the year has been one of real advance and that notwithstanding such difficulties as the diversion of the Indian route between Basra and Gwadar from the Persian littoral to the Arabian side of the Persian Gulf.
  I hope that I have said enough to impress the House with the extraordinary vitality displayed by civil aviation during the past year. From that the House may judge of the progress that may be expected when normal times return. Air

  1807
  transport has already become a commonplace necessity for modern life. If in 1903, the year in which Wilbur Wright made the first successful flight in an aeroplane, anyone had ventured to prophesy that within three decades a British commercial air transport company would convey 1,200 people across the Channel by air in a single week, and that many normal people would choose this method of travel by preference on the score both of comfort and convenience, what would have been said? What developments, therefore, may we not look forward to within the next generation?
  The future of Service flying depends Upon considerations which, as I have said, it is not for me to discuss here to-night. But I am confident I shall have the support of the House in saying that, so long as air forces exist, no Government in this country can disregard its responsibility for the air defence of our great urban populations, or do otherwise than maintain the Royal Air Force at a strength which will enable it to discharge its vital responsibilities. Overseas, an air force is essential to an Empire like ours charged with the trusteeship of territories still in the early stages of development. If it were not for the police work of the Royal Air Force and its power to maintain law and order effectively, economically and humanely, there would be widespread rapine and bloodshed over wide areas of the world's surface.
  My last word is to ask the House, in justice to the great Service with which I am proud to be associated, to bear this aspect of a difficult subject constantly in mind. I have spoken already of what I venture to style the credit or constructive side of the work of the Royal Air Force. It is the more important that this should not be overlooked at a time when, for obvious reasons, there is a tendency to concentrate more on the debit or destructive side of its potential activities. The 586 men, women and children of 11 different nationalities evacuated from Kabul amid the snows of winter did not look upon the Royal Air force as a destroyer, but as a saviour in a desperate emergency in which the other Services were, owing to the barriers of time and space, powerless to assist. The pastoral tribes of Southern Iraq, threatened with massacre at the hands of
  1808
  wild bands of fanatical desert tribesmen who regard it as a passport to Paradise that they should have extirpate with every circumstance of brutality all those who do not adhere to their particular extreme brand of religion, irrespective of age and sex, equally regard the Royal Air Force as their one protector, under the shadow of whose wings they can freely pursue their peaceful avocations. The same is true of the tribes of the Aden Protectorate, liberated by the Royal Air Force, after long years, from the tyranny of the troops of the Imam of the Yemen, who had wrested their lands from them by force and subjected them to slavery. This ability to bring succour to the oppressed, to protect the weak and repel the aggressor is a quality which has made a deep and abiding impression upon all those who have been privileged to see something of the activities of the Royal Air Force overseas; and I am sure that the House will understand the legitimate pride which all members of the Service take in this all-important aspect of their daily work.
  4.20 p.m.
  Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: Every Member who has listened to the Under-Secretary of State for Air will agree that only such an enthusiast in aviation as he could have dealt with the subject under discussion this afternoon in the manner in which he has done. He has told us, both in humorous vein and in a serious manner, of the successes as well as of the difficulties of the particular Department over which he has certain control and for which he is responsible to this House. I have listened, as I am certain everyone has listened, to his statement of his stewardship with a feeling that only the individual who has mastered the particular machine with which the Department for which he is responsible is concerned could have dealt with the subject as he has done. He is himself an expert in aviation, and consequently he has shown himself to the House this afternoon as an expert in making his annual statement upon the work of the Department. While appreciating all he said with regard to the success of the Department, I feel that his closing note was not altogether in the same tone, nor did it look upon the future from the same point of view as the Lord President of the Council, in the speech which he delivered

  1809
  in this House on the 10th November of last year. He spoke of the policing work of the Royal Air Force in different parts of the Empire and of the world where certain tribes had been warring for some time. I am afraid it was at that point that his enthusiasm took supreme control over him, and he seemed to glory in the fact that, compelled by the terrorism which the Air Force could exercise—I am using the word terrorism in the best sense—over tribes who had never seen or known of these things before, those tribes refrained from pursuing warring methods against tribes to which they were opposed. His enthusiasm there, I think, led him into a glorification of what one might call the destructive side of the Air Force rather than the protective side.
  I want to deal with the aspect which is presented to us who sit on these benches. We consider that the Air Force to-day, not merely of this country, but of all countries represents the particular terrorism with which the Under-Secretary of State for Air dealt in the closing sentences of his speech. It is not a terrorism relating to a few wild tribes in the barren wastes of Africa, Persia or any other Eastern country, but a terrorism in relation to those we look upon as civilised and consider to be our own kith and kin in this country and in the Colonies. The terrorism from the air which is used to cow certain recalcitrant tribes is the same terrorism which the Lord President of the Council expressed fear might one day be let lose upon civilisation. Therefore, we believe that, that particular side of the Air Force must be placed under proper control, not national control but international control.
  I think we shall all agree that, what-ever our views may be with regard to aviation and its uses by the respective nations, the representatives of His Majesty's Government at Geneva have shown a considerable degree of sincerity in their suggestions to the Air Committee of the League of Nations regarding international control and the manner in which it might be brought about. Unfortunately, there seems to be too much discussion, and no policy has yet been agreed upon between the respective nations. Lord Londonderry, the Secretary of State for Air, has put forward certain tentative proposals, but nothing
  1810
  definite. Already, as the Under-Secretary of State for Air has said, we stand as the fifth Power, and the proposal which has been made is to reduce the air forces of the respective countries to the same strength as the Air Force of this country, and then to reduce the air forces by a further one-third. That will at least be something tangible if it can be agreed upon by different countries. It is a long step forward. I notice that the Under-Secretary of State for Air smiles. I do not know whether his Chief, or he himself, thinks that a fantastic proposal has been made by this country to the Air Committee. At least as far as we are concerned, we believe that it is a step in the right direction, just as international control would also be a step in the right direction.
  I have before me a pamphlet issued by a body who look upon the future with considerable misgiving. They quote certain statements made by various people with regard to the production of poisonous gases to be dropped from aeroplanes upon the civil population in the event of a war. The booklet contains a collection of statements made by men who are high authorities in different countries in the realm of chemistry and are looked upon as experts in aviation, not only as far as our Air Force is concerned, but as far as the air forces in other parts of the world are concerned. Even the Lord President of the Council made one significant statement in his speech. It occurred to me when the Under-Secretary of State for Air wad making his statement about the Air Force being a defence. The Lord President of the Council said:
  " The only defence is in offence, which means that you have to kill more women and children more quickly than the enemy if you want to save yourselves."—[OFFICIAL REPOKT, 10th November, 1932; col. 632, Vol. 270.]
  Those were the words addressed to this House on the 10th of November. If they were true, and the manner in which they were received by those sitting around him that evening led me to believe that they also recognised the truth of the statement, that was the possibility, that in any future wars the skies would be raining death upon the civilian populations, and the only defence that one could have would be to have a more effective Air Force than the attacking force. So

  1811
  the thing. Would go on. I, like the Lord President of the Council, have no desire, and I am certain that no Member of this House has any desire, to see such a possibility becoming a reality, and we can only prevent it from becoming a reality by taking steps with other Government to place this possible horror under proper control. It is madness for civilisation1 to; leave such an infernal machine as aviation under the control of various countries who on various pretexts might declare war against another country,: and thereupon send a fleet of aeroplanes to hurl death and destruction upon the. people by means of explosive bombs or poison gas.
  The scenes of the last war we are told were as nothing in comparison with what the next war holds in store for us. That, surely, is sufficient to make people realise the possibilities of these infernal machines that are being operated for purely warlike purposes. Our Government ought to be prepared to take a lead and point out,:' what the Lord President of the Council pointed out, that there is no defence from air warfare. The Earl of Halsbury in last month's Journal of the British Legion makes the significant statement that they could not merely poison the lakes and the water supplies of a country and not merely drop down terror in the form of mustard gas, but they could even drop various forms of infection from aeroplanes to disseminate deadly disease amongst the community. What a horror is being held out before us in the eventuality of another war, and I am right in hoping that Lord Londonderry and our representatives at Geneva are going to make much further progress than they have done in the past. It is not sufficient merely to say that we are producing not more than one-fifth. Let it go out very clearly and definitely that any nation which is going to make use of the air service for war purposes against another nation will be declared an outlaw against civilisation.
  Mr. HA.RTLAND: Like Japan.
  Mr. MACLEAN: Like Japan. I would remind the hon. Member that if he had been in this house in 1921 and had assisted me in endeavouring to get the Government of that day to take the steps that I thought it was necessary to take
  1812
  against Japan, Japan would not have been carrying on warfare against China to-day. I would ask the Lord President of the Council as well as the Under-Secretary for Air if they are prepared to inform the House of any definite steps that they are likely to take as a Government in submitting proposals to the League of Nations that would limit the use of aeroplanes. International control is one thing. Using the Air Force as an international police could quite easily be done. There is no frontier now of any nation. Formerly we knew when a country was being invaded when a fleet visited its shores, if it had a coast line, or when an army invaded it by crossing the frontier that divided it from another country. But that is not the case to-day. Even in civil aviation we recognise no frontiers. In our flights to India we pass over countries, without let or hindrance, with no objection being taken. There is no frontier when it comes to war so far as aviation is concerned.
  Those who have been making statements regarding the prospects of future warfare have pointed out how quickly we have made progress in aviation. That is something to glory at so long as the Air Force is kept for a proper purpose. Reference has been made to the speed at which aeroplanes can travel now. We are told that Paris could be bombed from London within two or three hours and that London could be bombed from Paris in the same time. A declaration of war would not mean the massing of troops. It would not mean bringing troops into various quarters. The very moment that war was declared, fleets of aeroplanes would leave to go to the country against which war had been declared.
  Mr. PIKE: Let us have some.
  Mr. MACLEAN: I have no doubt the hon. Member could have enough if he cared to go out to the regions which the Under-Secretary has described, where he has told us what the Air Force is doing. If the hon. Member glories in that sort of thing he had better preach it to his constituents.
  Mr. PIKE: I do not glory in being left without them.
  Mr. MACLEAN: The hon. Member does not glory in being left without them. I am not glorying in being left with-

  1813
  out them, but I am asking for a proposal to be put forward by the Government in order to stop the possibility of the Air Force being used for the ill purposes which I have described, and I hope I have the hon. Member's support in that. I am using the arguments put forward by the Lord President of the Council and the Under-Secretary of State. I have no desire, and I am certain that the hon. Member has just as little desire as I have, of seeing any of the possibilities that have been described by various writers and even by speakers in this House of what is likely to happen should there be another war. Civil aviation is one thing, but aviation for warlike purposes is another thing. Aviation for policing and for protecting where protection is necessary is a different thing. For the latter purposes aviation could be legitimately used and civil aviation could be used for commercial purposes, but warlike purposes ought to be made illegal, and nations using an Air Force for such purposes ought to be outlawed. The Secretary of State for Air and the Under-Secretary, together with the Lord President of the Council, whose speech created such an impression last November when he drew so horrible a picture of the possibilities of a future war, particularly from the air, ought to use their best endeavours to prevent anything happening in the future such as we had on a small scale during the last war.
  There are one or two points in the Estimates which I should like to put to the Under-Secretary. On page 49, under the heading "Mechanical and other Transport," there is an item of £80,000 for marine craft. Can the Under-Secretary explain that item? I understand that certain motor boats have been built for the Air Service. I should like to be told the purpose for which these motor boats were built, how many were built, and what was their cost. Were any tenders invited from competing firms on the Government list for the building of these motor boats, or was the order handed out to some particular firm who were asked to go ahead with a design submitted to them by the Air Ministry? I should like to know what is the method of promotion in the Air Service. Is it democratic I Can a man rise from the lowest grade in which he enlists and be-
  1814
  come Marshal of the Service, with a Marshal's baton? Is that the method of promotion? I should like to know also whether in the messing arrangements the officer can live upon his pay or whether he requires private means to meet the expenses of his rank. These are matters upon which information is required.
  There is also a point that was made in regard to the skeleton staff that is still maintained at Cardington. Is there any intention, when times become better and finance is a bit easier, to embark again on the building of an airship such as the one which has been broken up and the one in which the lamentable accident occurred a year or two ago? As to the new works that are being taken in hand, I understood the Under-Secretary to state that certain places were being built or were being arranged as defence stations in this country. I do not know whether I misunderstood him, but in view of the statement of the Lord President of the Council that there is no such thing as defence in air warfare, I should imagine that any defence stations set up are calculated to be of no use whatever, and that, therefore, they would be a waste of money.
  As regards civil aviation, a sum is being given as a subsidy to light aeroplane clubs. The sum this year is an increase over last year of some £7,000. I should like to ask how many aeroplane clubs there are, what particular purpose they serve, what conditions they have to observe in order to obtain the subsidy, and whether they are under any obligation to the Air Service and the Government to be called upon in the case of, say, industrial disputes or in any conflict that might arise among civilians in the country, whether that is part of the obligations to be observed by these light aeroplane clubs in order to qualify for the subsidies which are being paid them by the Government. I would suggest that in this matter as in other matters some explanations are required.
  I would also suggest that the Under-Secretary, his chief, Lord Londonderry, and the Government should press forward as strenuously as they can with the idea of internationalising the air forces of the world as rapidly as possible, of endeavouring to overcome the difficulties that may be put in their way by the representatives of other nations, of trying to meet those difficulties and getting

  1815
  them, removed, and of getting differences adjusted by putting forward a well-thought-out plan for international control of aviation in order to prevent the possibility of any of those things happening that were described in such vivid language by the Lord President of the Council. His appeal was that the youth of the country and of the world alone could save the world, because it was they who would be required to fight in the next war. His speech closed on that note and with that appeal. Therefore, we who are the old men, as he described us, wish the youth of the country and of the world to realise their possibilities and their responsibilities, and we want to place upon them the onus of any future war and to let them know that they must take part in it and face the horrors. If those horrors were brought home to them, the youth of the world would rise and tell the old men who are in the Government of the country to get on with the work of making peace, so that the youth of the world would not be required to risk their lives in cleaning up the mess left by the older men.
  4.49 p.m.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I should like to begin by congratulating my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State upon his extremely, lucid, interesting, and agreeably delivered statement on behalf of his Department. We all heard it with the greatest interest, and everyone knows how absolutely wrapped up in the work of the Flying Service the right hon. Gentleman is. But I think that if our discussion this afternoon was confined solely to the topics upon which he thought it prudent to dwell, if, for instance, we were to go away, as we might easily go, with the idea that the Air Force exists to fight locusts and that it never drops anything but blankets, we should undoubtedly entertain incomplete impressions of some of the issues which are brought before the House when the Air Estimates for the year are introduced.
  I think this is the time when we may, without injury or risk, discuss generally these questions of the defensive services. I am not one of those who consider that the state of Europe at the present time is in any real degree comparable with the state of Europe in 1914. Although there is the greatest unrest, and hatreds are as
  1816
  rife as ever, yet I am bound to express my view—I may be wrong—that I feel that there is not the same explosive and catastrophic atmosphere as existed in 1914; and, therefore, I think we may discuss in cool blood and with calm hearts, or at any rate in tranquil circumstances, some of the technical issues which are raised by this Vote.
  I must follow the hon. Gentleman who represented the Labour party in turning especially to the speech, the memorable speech, which was delivered by the Lord President of the Council a few months ago. But for that speech, I would not have troubled the House this afternoon. I agree with what I imagine were the feelings of the Lord President when he wished that neither aeroplanes nor submarines had ever been invented. I am sure they have both been deeply detrimental to the special interests and security of this island; and I agree also with his general theme that the air power may either end war or end civilisation. But where I think we are bound to examine carefully the speech of the Lord President is in the feeling it aroused that he caused alarm without giving guidance.
  My right hon. Friend—I know he has an engagement of great public importance—swept away many important things in that half-hour. He did not believe there was never to be another Great War; he thought wars would come again some day, but he hoped they would not come in our time, as we all hope. He had apparently no real faith in the sanctity of agreements, such as the Kellogg Pact, neither had he any faith in the means of defence which are open to civilised communities when confronted with dangers which they cannot avoid. He led us up to a conclusion which was no conclusion. We were greatly concerned, and yet we were afforded no solace, no solution. So far as my right hon. Friend made an appeal to youth, it was very difficult to see what was the moral which he inculcated, and as far as I can understand, reading in the current publications, his appeal to youth has been widely misinterpreted in some of our leading universities.
  But there is a certain helplessness and hopelessness which was spread about by the speech of the Lord President of the Council from which I hope the House will

  1817
  endeavour to shake itself free. There is the same kind of helplessness and hopelessness about dealing with this air problem as there is about dealing with the unemployment problem, or the currency question, or the question of economy. All the evils are portrayed, and vividly portrayed, and the most admirable sentiments are expressed, but as for a practical course of action, a solid foothold on which we can tread step by step, there is in this great sphere and in other spheres of Government activity a gap, a hiatus, a sense that there is no message from the lips of the prophet. There is no use gaping vacuously on the problems of the air or on the military problems with which they confront us. Still less is there any use in indulging in pretence in any form. The spokesman for the Labour party, in a speech which certainly presented, in its full coherence, a definite point of view, spoke with great satisfaction of the proposals which the Government have been making at Geneva. The air forces of the world are all to be reduced to our level, and then we are all to take another step down to the extent of 33J per cent. I gather that that is the proposal.
  Mr. MACLEAN: I am not satisfied with that.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Not satisfied, but as an instalment, as a move in the right direction, it gained the approval of the hon. Gentleman. Well, but is there any reality at all in a proposal of that kind? I mean, we must not allow our insular pride to blind us to the fact that some of these foreigners are quite intelligent, that they have an extraordinary knack, on occasions, of rising fully up to the level of British comprehension. Of course, if all the air forces of the world were to be reduced to our level, as we are only fifth in the gamut, or list, that would be a very great enhancement of our ratio of military strength; and they are bound to notice that. So I could not help feeling that the proposals which were made—I only take this one point as an illustration —would sound very well while they were being unfolded, would give great gratification to the League of Nations Union, who, poor things, have to content themselves with so little. They would give the same kind of warm, sentimental, generous feeling that we were doing a great, wise, fundamental, eternal thing that the recent arms embargo announcement gave
  1818
  to so wide a circle. But I do not suppose that there would have been anyone more surprised than the Under-Secretary of State or his Chief if, when they had made these spacious suggestions at Geneva, all the Powers had suddenly risen and, with loud acclamations, said, "We accept them." I am sure that even my right hon. Friend would have been at any rate momentarily disconcerted. In fact, there was no chance of these proposals being accepted, not the faintest chance, and no one knew it better than His Majesty's Government when they made them.
  I do not think we ought to go far in dealing in humbug. There are good people in this country who care about Disarmament. In many ways I think they are wrong, but I do not see why they should be tricked. I think they should have the plain truth told them, and if they disagree they have their constitutional remedy. It is no kindness to this country to go on stirring up and paying all this lip service in the region of unrealities, and getting a cheap cheer because you have said something which has not ruffled anyone, and then meanwhile doing the opposite, meanwhile proceeding on entirely pre-War lines, as all the nations of Europe are proceeding today in all the practical arrangements which they are making.
  Another reason why it does not seem to me that these proposals had any chance
  of being accepted is their effect upon France. Take the position of France. If
  we were to reduce their Air Force to the level of ours, that is to say, if we are to reduce it by one-third or perhaps two-fifths, if we were to halve their Air Force and then we were to go hand-in-hand and take one-third off what was left, and meanwhile German aviation, whatever it is worth, remained constant, can anyone suppose that a proposal like that in the present state of Europe, and in the present mood of Germany—there are things happening there which cause even her greatest well-wishers the most extreme anxiety —
  HON. MEMBERS: Are you one of
  them?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I am not one of them, no, I am not; but still I would gladly see Germany advance along the line which seemed so hopeful in the days of Locarno. As I say, in the present

  1819
  temper of Europe, can you ever expect that France would halve her Air Force and then reduce the residue by one-third? Would you advise her to do so? If she took your advice and did it, and then trouble occurred, -would you commit this country to stand by her side and make good the injury? If we proceed to argue on lines which have no connection with reality, we shall get into very great trouble. You talk of secret diplomacy, but let me tell you that there is a worse kind of secret diplomacy, and it is the diplomacy which spreads out hope and soothing syrup for the good, while all the time winks are exchanged between the people who know actually what is going on. That is a far worse situation. I am as a fact a member of the League of Nations Union. If I were one of their leading authorities I would be far more irritated with people who deceive me than with persona who, supposed to be lost souls, stated the blunt truth, because unless the people know the truth one day they are going to have a very surprising awakening.
  I do not think that these proposals which have been made by the Government at Geneva are likely to be accepted, and I do not think there is any single man in any part of the House who thinks, or who has ever thought, that they had the slightest chance of being accepted. So that part of the conclusions which would follow from the speech of the Lord President of the Council has dropped out. You are not going to get international agreement which will completely obviate the necessity of having your defence or which will remove these appalling dangers which have been so freely stated. Let me say that I am most anxious that in anything that is said to France at Geneva upon air armaments or upon military armaments we should do nothing which exposes us to the French retort, "Very well; then you are involved with us." I would far rather have larger Estimates and be absolutely free and independent to choose our own course than become involved in this Continental scene by a well-meant desire to persuade them all to give up arms. There is terrible danger there.
  I read in the newspapers to-day that the Prime Minister has been giving an ultimatum or making a strong appeal to
  1820
  France to. disarm. Whether you deal with the Army or the Air, you are taking an altogether undue responsibility at a time like this in tendering such advice to a friendly nation. No, I hope and trust that the French will look after their own safety, and that we shall be permitted to live our life in our island without being again drawn into the perils of the Continent of Europe. But I want to say that if we wish to detach ourselves, if we wish to lead a life of independence from European entanglements, we have to be strong enough to defend our neutrality. We are not going to preserve neutrality if we have no technical equipment. That reason might again be urged if we were discussing Navy Votes. I am strongly of opinion that we require to strengthen our armaments by air and upon the seas in order to make sure that we are still judges of our own fortunes, our own destinies and our own action.
  I now come to the technical issue which was raised by the speech of the Lord President of the Council—a famous speech, I must say, because how many speeches we make in this House and how few are remembered a week after, but here months ago my right hon. Friend made his speech and I am sure that in this Air Debate it is the dominant theme. The right hon. Gentleman was dealing with the bombing of open towns and the murdering of women and children as an orthodox and legitimate means of civilised war. I cannot follow him in two respects. First of all, he assumes that it would certainly be done. Secondly, he assumes that there is no remedy. I do not think that either of those impressions is a true impression which should guide public thought upon these matters. The right hon. Gentleman said, with very great truth, that the only defence is offence. That is the soundest of all military maxims. But, as can be seen from the context of the phrase which was read out just now by the hon. Gentleman opposite, my right hon. Friend had been led to believe that the only method of offence by which you could defend your own civil population from being murdered was to murder some of the civil population on the other side. But that is nonsense. The true offence would be entirely different.
  In a war between two States with equal air forces it would not pay—I put it no

  1821
  higher; I leave out morality, humanity and the public law of Europe and leave out any success you may obtain from forbidding such methods as the destruction of civilian life—it would not pay, from the military point of view, from the point of view of the self-preservation of the parties engaged in the war, it would not pay any Power engaged in an equal fight, with air forces equal on both sides, to waste its strength upon non-combatants and open towns. To use an expression which I have heard, they could not afford to waste their bombs on mere women and children. Essentially a struggle of this kind, which I pray as much as any man we shall never live to see and which I am resolved to do my utmost to avert, any struggle of this kind would essentially resolve itself into a combat between the two air forces. If all of a sudden two Powers, A and B, with equal forces, went to war, and one threw its bombs upon cities so as to kill as many women and children as possible, and the other threw its bombs on aerodromes and air bases and factories and arsenals and dockyards and railway focal points of the other side, can anyone doubt that next morning he would find that the one who had committed the greatest crime would not be the one who had reaped the greatest advantage?
  Mr. MACLEAN: What do you mean by that?
  Mr. CHURCHILL:What I mean is
  that this horrible, senseless, brutal method of warfare, which we are told is the first military step that would be taken, the killing of women and children, would not be comparable, as a military measure, with an attack upon the technical centres and air bases of an enemy Power.
  Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSON: What about the moral effect on the people?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: The moral effect would be far greater if it were found the next day that the hostile air forces were incapable of flying at all. That would have not only a moral effect, but a physical effect of very remarkable strength. But I must say this: While m the first instance in any conflict the air forces would fight and would not be able, if equally matched, to look elsewhere, yet once one side was decidedly beaten this process of torturing the civil population by killing the women and children
  1822
  might well be used in order to extort abject surrender and subjugation from the Power whose air defence had be n broken down. That is true. Anyone can see that that might be applied. If there were any Power in the world to which it might not be applied perhaps it would be our island, because so much easier methods would be open for reducing us to submission. If we were completely defenceless in the air, if we were reduced to a condition where we could not deal with this form of warfare, I doubt very much whether the victorious Power would be well advised to come and kill the women and children I should have thought that by intercepting all the trade passing through the narrow seas and on the approaches to this island, they could employ the weapon of starvation which would probably lead to a peace on terms which they thought were desirable.
  Therefore, it seems to me that the possession of an adequate air force is almost a complete protection, for the civilian population, not indeed against injury and annoyance but against destruction such as was portrayed by the Lord President of the Council, and that, after all, is what we have to think of first. I cannot understand why His Majesty's Government and the, representatives of the Air Ministry do not inculcate these truths, for truths they are, actual truths —to quote a disagreeable word that I have recently learned—as widely, as they possibly can. The only defence is an adequate air force, and the possession of an adequate air force will relieve the civil population from this danger until that air force is victorious or is beaten. If it is victorious then the danger is removed for a long period. Therefore, I do not think that we should; be led by the Lord President into supposing that no means of safety are open to, a vigorous, valiant race. There is means of safety open. While I would not abandon every hope of international 'agreement, I would not base the life of this country upon it in their present stage, but to cut us off from that, on the one hand, and to suggest that no remedy is in our hands in the region of force, on the other, is to expose us to a gloomy vision.
  Not to have an adequate air force in the present state of the world is to compromise the foundations of national free-

  1823
  dom and independence. It is all very well to suppose that we are masters of our own actions in this country and that this House can assemble and vote as to whether it wishes to go to war or not. If you desire to keep that privilege, which I trust we shall never lose, it is indispensable that you should have armaments in this island which will enable you to carry on your life without regard to external pressure. I regretted very much to hear the Under-Secretary say that, we were only the fifth air Power. I regretted very much to hear him say that the 10-year programme was suspended for another year. I was sorry to hear him boast that they had not laid down a single new unit this year. An these ideas are being increasingly stultified by the march of events, and we should be well advised to concentrate upon our air defences with greater vigour. Certainly it looks curious that while our Army and Navy have been increased in expenditure this year, I have no doubt absolutely necessarily, because we had disarmed far below what is reasonable, the Air Force, which is the most fit of all, should be the one to be subjected not to an increase but to an actual reduction.
  Above all, we must not be led by the Lord President into this helpless, hopeless movement. Our island is surrounded by the sea, it always has been, and, although the House may not realise it, the sea was in early times a great disadvantage because an invader could come across the sea and no one knew where he would land; very often he did not know himself. On the continent the lines of advance are fixed by the mountain passes, the roads, and the fertile plains and rivers. We were under a great disadvantage 1.000 years ago in being surrounded by the sea, and we suffered terribly from it. But we did not give up; we did not evacuate the island and say that we must live on the mainland. Not at all. We conquered the sea; we became the mistress of the sea, and the very element which had given the invader access to the heart of our country, to our hearths and homes, became its greatest protection, became indeed the bridge not the gulf which united us to the most distant parts of our Empire throughout the world. Now
  1824
  there is the air. The sea perhaps is no longer complete security for our island development; it must be the air too.
  Why should we fear the air? We have as good technical knowledge as any country. There is no reason to suppose that we cannot make machines as good as any country. We have, it may be thought conceited to say so, a particular vein of talent in air piloting which is in advance of that possessed by other countries. Perhaps we have greater numbers who would be capable of making the best pilots, certainly it was most cheering to hear the Under-Secretary tell us of the speed records held by this country, the high-speed records and the long-distance records. At any rate, I do not think I am putting it too high when I say that there is not the slightest reason to suppose that we are not capable of producing as good results for money put into aviation as any other country. That being so, I ask the Government to consider profoundly and urgently the whole position of our air defence. I am not going to commit myself, without an opportunity of examining all the technical and financial details, to any particular standard, but this I say, that, in view of the significance which this subject has at the present time, in view of the state of the world, and in view of the speech of the Lord President of the Council, it is absolutely indispensable that the necessary programme of air development should be carried out and that our defences in this matter should be adequate to our needs.
  5.22 p.m.
  Mr. MANDER: It is not often that I find myself in agreement with my fellow member of the League of Nations Union, but I entirely agree with his description of the policy of the Government for a reduction in air power as being utterly impracticable, and in the nature of humbug, because it is inconceivable that any foreign country would agree to it for a moment, or that those who put it forward on behalf of this country seriously believed that they would do so. But the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) stopped short in his description of the policy of His Majesty's Government. The policy of the Government goes a great deal further than anything of that kind. The Government have made it clear that, provided a suitable

  1825
  scheme of international control of civil aviation can be devised, they are prepared for the abolition of military and naval air forces altogether; and I most heartily and warmly congratulate the Government on that policy. I hope they will press it firmly and energetically, not in a rather hesitating and half-hearted way, pointing out the obstacles and difficulties but concentrating on the necessity for something of the kind being done.
  My regret is that this policy was not put forward 12 months ago when it might have had a decisive effect on the success of the Disarmament Conference, which now looks like coming to an end in chaos and failure. I hope the Government will pluck up their courage and, realising that success on these lines is the only thing which can prevent the rearming of Germany and a fresh race in armaments, ending in another war, will in the next few years and months—an adjournment may be necessary in view of the unsettled state of Germany after the present revolution—concentrate all their energies on devising a practical scheme of international control, thereby making possible the abolition of air forces altogether. There are various ways of carrying that out, but I am not going into them to-day. You might for example have an international register of aircraft in every country, which might be open to an international inspectorate and in that way some safeguard could be provided against its misuse for other purposes.
  In introducing the Estimates the Under-Secretary of State, for some reason, did not refer to the ultimate policy of the Government. He spoke of a reduction and limitation of the Air Force. I do not know why he did not use tie word "abolition," because abolition undoubtedly is the policy of His Majesty's Government at the present time. The right hon. Member for Epping has referred to the necessity at all costs of keeping out of any conflict which may arise on the continent. He appeared to overlook the fact that there is in existence the Treaty of Locarno and, however, much the Foreign Secretary or the right hon. Member for Epping may desire that we should remain isolated we simply cannot do so under certain circumstances if we are to honour, as I presume we are, the pledges we gave when the Covenant and the Treaty of Locarno
  1826
  were signed. Who knows on what day of the week we may learn that the Treaty of Locarno has come into force and that we are called upon to play our part according to the promises we have made.
  On the question of international control of civil aviation, there is no sphere of human activity which is more suitable for treatment of this kind. You are quickly over the border of any particular country, and we know the difficulties which exist by the objections raised by Persia and Italy in connection with the programme of Imperial Airways. Nothing would do more to develop the future of civil aviation throughout the world than a sound and practical scheme of international control, which need not interfere with national development on national lines. When travelling abroad I prefer to travel in a British machine, because they are safer and sounder and better piloted.
  Rear-Admiral SUETER: Will the hon. Member tell us what he has in mind when he talks about international control?
  Mr. MANDER: There are various methods of controlling international aviation, but I do not propose to go into them in detail on this occasion although I shall be glad to discuss it with the hon. and gallant Member. There is the possibility of making an international register of aeroplanes, which could be inspected by an international staff, and in that way you would get a safeguard against an abuse for military purposes. The question is an extremely interesting one and might form the subject of a Debate to which I should be glad to make my contribution on some other occasion. There are some questions of detail which I wish to put to the Under-Secretary. First, what is the policy of the Government with regard to the development of aerodromes? I hope that he will be able to indicate that the Government are anxious to do all they can to encourage local authorities to acquire land for aerodrome purposes, and that they will make representations to the Ministry of Health or whatever Government Department is concerned so that the necessary loans for that purpose may be obtained.
  I would also ask him when replying to make some reference to the conditions of the Royal Air Force in Iraq. Up to the

  1827
  present they have been responsible for law and order both inside and outside that territory. In future they will be responsible only for outside and not for internal order. Obviously there is going to be enormous difficulty and danger if some internal disorder occurred for which we had no responsibility, and we were called upon to assist the local government in putting it down. I understand that the intention and the ruling is that we must not interfere and the Royal Air Force must not be used for order inside Iraq. Perhaps the Under-Secretary will tell us if this is so, and what steps are being taken to ensure that this rule can in all circumstances be observed.
  I hope that the Government will persevere with their policy of the abolition of air forces, but it is impossible to overlook the fact that they may fail and that the Disarmament Conference may come to no such conclusion. If we are driven back upon reliance on our own forces in this and other countries it becomes necessary to ask seriously what is our position. It has been said that we are the fifth air Power of the present time. I understand that during the whole of the Great War with the 41 machines available at that time in Germany, only 300 tons were dropped in this country and 1,880 people killed. I believe that at the present time one country alone—not likely, I hope, to be an enemy—namely France, can with her friends mobilise 4,000 machines which could drop in one day as much as or considerably more than the amount dropped in this country throughout the whole of the War. The striking force of aircraft has been increased three thousandfold since that time. I hope and believe that the inevitable horror of war in the air will be such as to make all countries decide that they are not going to tolerate it. My right hon. Friend the Member for Epping said that you would not get this indiscriminate bombing of women and children. I venture to say that you will. Whatever rules and regulations are made the air force of a country will do all it can to break the nerve and resistance and cause a profound psychological effect upon the enemy country and not only the armed forces, but men, women and children will be brought in inevitably. I think it is desirable to recognise that, because I think it will mean that people will not tolerate
  1828
  it or allow it to continue. It is not desirable to attempt to carry out what is essentially an ungentlemanly performance, namely, war according to gentlemanly rules.
  I desire to direct attention to the great economies which could be produced in the defence services, amounting to many millions a year, if for certain purposes the Royal Air Force were made more use of in doing what is now being done particularly by the Army and to a certain extent by the Navy. The economy and success which have attended its efforts far afield in the Empire are well known, but I venture briefly to recapitulate certain examples. In 1925 four tribes in Waziristan had been creating trouble for a long time. The task of dealing with them was handed over to the Royal Air Force alone, and in seven weeks they brought the trouble to an end. The casualties were under 100. That was done by bombing villages, dispersing cattle and placing a constant strain on all the inhabitants of that area, and the local warriors were so disgusted with this one-sided method of warfare out of which they got no kick at all that they decided to surrender. The whole cost of the
  operation was about £100,000. In the previous four years the Army had been attempting to do the same work and had spent £18,000,000. That operation of the Royal Air Force was not only successful momentarily, but had a lasting effect, and it was found that we had not only an effective Imperial Police, but a very effective Imperial fire brigade also. In 1927, in the Mohmand country near the Khyber, a jehad was proclaimed against the British by a local Mullah. Three squadrons of the Royal Air Force from Peshawar brought the trouble to an end in three days, whereas in 1908 a similar task had to be undertaken by 17,000 men of the Army with a large cost in men and money.
  Iraq, however, is the outstanding case. I am not referring to the time of the rebellion just after the War when the cost was extremely heavy but the period of settlement after that. The War Office estimated that it would cost annually £7,000,000 to £8,000,000. The Royal Air Force has been carrying out the task during the last few years at a cost of £1,500,000 annually. The last case is that of Aden where there was trouble for it number of years in the territory of the

  1829
  Imam of the Yemen. It became so serious that the opinion of the War Office was asked. They said that the services of a division would be required and that it would cost £6,000,000 to £10,000,000. The task was handed over to the Royal Air Force and one squadron in one month brought the whole thing to an end at a cost of £8,500.
  These are examples showing that for certain purposes the Air Force has an immense superiority as regards time, efficiency and cost over the more old-fashioned method which, until the use of the air was discovered, had to be employed. In view of the tremendous natural opposition of vested interests and the resistance to new ideas which the Royal Air Force has had to meet, they have done extraordinarily well and their work on the lines I have suggested deserves to be encouraged. Take home defence for instance. There is difficulty in obtaining the necessary recruits for the Territorial Army. Surely the Royal Air Force would be in an extraordinarily effective position to protect the shores of this country against invasion? They would be able to look far afield, to see the approaching transports and to bomb them and if by any chance the transports were to reach here and foreign troops were landed upon our shores, the Air Force would have no difficulty in making short work of those who had landed and would deal with them, certainly, in a way not inferior to anything which the Army could do. I do not suggest that you would not want ground forces but I believe that you would want them on a much smaller scale and that the total cost would be less if you entrusted the task I have suggested to this new arm.
  In all I say I am, of course, assuming what I hope will not prove true, namely, the failure of the Government's plan for the abolition of air forces altogether. I am simply suggesting an alternative but I infinitely prefer the other course and I do not want to be misunderstood but so long as an Air Force exists in this country and other countries I naturally desire that ours should be, as it is to-day, the most efficient of the lot. Whether aviation in this country is developed upon military lines or as, I hope, upon civilian lines, I am sure that British pilots will continue to do as they have done up to the present and lead the world in this wonderful, new sphere of human develop-
  1830
  ment in which one is always on active service and in which the highest qualities of mind and brain are called upon at every moment.
  5.40 p.m.
  Mr. HANLEY: In rising to address the, House for the first time I hope that it will extend to me that indulgence which it so regularly gives to new Members on these very trying occasions. We have: heard from the Under-Secretary how the Royal Air Force has "blazed the trail" of commercial aviation to the Cape and Singapore. We have heard how it has carried out survey work and helped district officers in controlling their areas. We have heard also about the air control of the Middle East. On that point I am in disagreement with the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) and certain other hon. Members who urge greater substitution. One has to bear in mind that substitution is only possible in those cases where you have a primitive population scattered over a large tract of country. I do not believe that it is practicable where you have populations concentrated in small areas. Although we have an air line, an all-red route, running out to Singapore which possibly in the near future will be extended to Australia, there remains one development which I hope will be realised and that is an air line to Canada. I feel rather nervous about one point in our existing all-red route and that is as to the first halt between this country and Malta. I feel that in certain eventualities there is the possibility of that communication being cut, leaving a. big gap between here and Malta. I am not an expert—nor am I a disarmament crank—but I am told by experts that that is a difficulty. I suggest that we. might have experimental flights from this country to Gibraltar. I understand that Gibraltar is not very suitable for this. purpose, but that is the only way, as far as I can see from the map, in which we could ensure an all-red route to the East. Experimental flights might also be undertaken between Gibraltar and Malta. These of course would have to be done by flying boats.
  One point which I notice as a layman is the lack of development in amphibian aircraft. Looking at it from a commonsense point of view I feel that there might be greater use made of amphibian

  1831
  aircraft. I expect that hon. Members who are pilots will rise after I have concluded to point out the difficulties involved in the question of weight. Perhaps I am looking too far ahead, but some years ago it was not thought possible to make an aeroplane engine of 500 horse power of any weight less than 500 lbs. There is no knowing what will be possible in a few years' time and there is a great future in the development of these amphibian flying boats. There might be for instance some possibility in various areas of making landing grounds situated near water. Thus if it were too rough on that water to alight you could bring such a machine down on the land. and when it was refueled it could be hauled down some light railway into the water, where it could have a better takeoff next day in calm weather with its full load of petrol and passengers. That is a small suggestion which I hope may be slightly constructive.
  Turning to the question of air defence, a lot has been said about bombing, and I think that everybody must own to the fact that they are frightened at the word "bomb." After all, a bomb is only a shell dropped from an aeroplane, and we must realise it as such. We have also to face up to the very hard fact that all these commercial aeroplanes of the larger type are potential bombers. You can either convert them in a few minutes or take them up and throw the bombs out, as was done in the early days of the War. Therefore one has to count in one's armed forces the commercial aircraft of the larger type. We cannot now abolish all aircraft; that is quite clear. Therefore, if we merely abolished the military aircraft, I venture to state there would be a parallel case if we abolished the Navy and left the Mercantile Marine. That would merely mean that the country with the biggest Mercantile Marine would have the lead. If we abolish military aircraft, civil aviation will still be left, and the lead will be taken by the country with the largest number of machines. By improving military aircraft, one aeroplane against the other for the needs of the various countries, it should be possible to maintain a state of equilibrium.
  Some hon. Members and people outside the House have suggested that our policy for economic reasons should be to keep the Air Force low in numbers but high in
  1832
  efficiency. That is a certain safeguard against the larger numbers of less efficient aircraft possessed by other nations. I am not easy about that, and I think that it is a question of numbers—an aeroplane for an aeroplane, a flying boat for a flying boat. We have gone into the Disarmament Conference and we have said: "If you will reduce to our level, we can all come down by one-third." We have offered that and have given a lead, just in the same way as we gave a lead the other day on the arms embargo. That was not acceptable, so we had to take off our embargo. We hope that the other nations will agree to this. It was hinted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) that he did not think there was much chance of it. Therefore, I suggest that we should try something else. It might be possible for the Government to devise some scheme to get a certain amount of international agreement on the question of the definite allocation of what one may call civil areas. They would take areas of large cities which are not in any way occupied by military works and these would be isolated and by international agreement would not be bombed. Thus the civilian population would be protected. It is true that such an agreement might be a scrap of paper, like some other agreements, but we might start by getting some agreement on those lines. I have tried during my few remarks as a new Member to throw out some ideas to act as a target for those Members who are interested in aviation, and I trust that if I have succeeded in doing that I have not failed in my duty as a new Member, but I urge the Government, as they approach the ideal of disarmament, to see that their feet are firmly planted on each stepping stone lest they fall into the treacherous torrent that lies between us and eternal peace.
  5.50 p.m.
  Lord APSLEY: The hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Hanley) made a speech to which the House listened with great interest. He made one point which I think the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) missed, and it was important. It was that those who are suffering from nightmares about bombing in future wars must remember that the bogy-man of these nightmares is the civil aircraft—the big freighters and the big liners. These are machines which we

  1833
  must all produce and which we are bound to produce H transport by air is to continue, as it must. They are the machines which count. No matter what inspectorate we may have, no matter what rules and regulations we may produce, if any nation were to enter into a state of war, within a very few hours these aircraft could be converted into bombers which could drop high explosives or chemical gases or poisons such as we have conjured up in our nightmares. The fighting aircraft are good value for they are machines by the possession of which alone we can prevent bombing aircraft from invading our homes. Therefore no inspectorate which could not say what are fighting machines and what are not could possibly protect us. It is the great carrying machines which can really do harm.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), whenever he makes a speech, whenever he writes a book, and, I am told, whenever he paints a picture, is always able to produce a work of art and not infrequently a masterpiece. I believe that our grandchildren will read his works and will look on him as the Herodotus or the Macaulay of the 20th century. For his style and ease of reading, no one can surpass him, but we are told by our tutors always to be on the look-out for one point, the absence or prevalence of which when detected may throw the whole work out of perspective. In the right hon. Gentleman's most cogent and excellent speech to-day there was a point which I am afraid that we cannot accept, and I do not think that he believes it himself really. It is the point that the Government deliberately went to the League of Nations and made the proposition that all other countries should reduce their air forces to the same strength as our own and then cut them down by one-third, in the belief that nobody would accept it, and that therefore nothing need be done. I am unable, and I do not think anybody else is able, really to accept that suggestion.
  What foundation has the right hon. Gentleman for believing that that proposition might not be acceptable to foreign Powers Does he himself believe that we have accepted and that all foreign nations have accepted as a fait accompli that we are to be definitely relegated for all time to the position of
  1834
  fifth among the air forces of the world, that we have accepted that position and are unable and unwilling to get out of it? Does he not think that other nations may perhaps have an idea that possibly we alone financially, of all the nations of the world, if we desire to do so, can easily return to the position of first which we held just after the War? I wish the right hon. Gentleman were here to listen to the rest of the Debate. Does he not think that the possession of a large air force may not be an unmixed blessing? Machines in the air become obsolete very quickly. It is not quantity, but quality that counts. The Under-Secretary said that under Lord Londonderry's proposals France would have to cut their air force down by one-half. I wonder whether the French would not agree to that proposition with some relief. I do not know whether any hon. Members have seen the French air force in all parts of France, but I have seen some of the machines. They have certainly some very modern and good machines, but they have a lot which are costing them a great deal of money, and I am sure that they would be glad of an excuse to get rid of them. That, I believe, applies to other countries. I am unable without. any further definite information, which perhaps the right hon. Member for Epping can supply, to accept the proposition that the Government made these proposals with their tongues in their cheeks knowing that nobody would accept them, and that therefore there was no need for anything to be done.
  I would like to make one or two suggestions which perhaps may be of use. I know that when these Estimates are debated, it is the way of private Members to make many suggestions and hope for answers, but the numbers are so great that they cannot all be considered on their merits. But there is one question which I should be glad to hear is being considered by the Air Council. It is the question of short service commissions. It is possible that we cannot commit ourselves to any general policy on that question just yet. I do not know whether even the Cabinet know as yet for what we are aiming in our Air Service, whether we are simply building and training with the idea that there might he a war of world importance requiring ready protection of the greatest amount

  1835
  of materiel and personnel, or whether we are yet able to put that definitely by the board and build and train a small but;very efficient police force to keep open our communications, and keep peace within the Empire.
  I should like to pay a tribute in a small way and to offer my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary in that he is the only Minister of the Crown whom I have ever heard standing at that Table and telling the House of the work that is being done all over the world for peace by any section of the British Fighting Services. While the League of Nations is deliberating and talking, action has time after time to be taken by the British Forces, and so far we have only been told in the House what has been done by the Junior Service. The same sort of work is done by the Navy and the Army. Whether there is a typhoon in Jamaica or an earthquake in Salonika or New Zealand, the Navy with its cruisers go to the
  rescue. Whether there is a riot in Cyprus or trouble between the Jews and Arabs in Palestine, or trouble in India or in China, it has been the British Army or the British Air Force or both whose mere presence has sufficed time after time to bring peace when nobody else has been willing to act.
  There is this question: Are we training and building for what is, in effect, an international police service, and, if we are, is it not perhaps time to reconsider whether we should not abandon the short service commission, which trains the greatest number of pilots, but possibly not the best quality, or whether we should not go back, anyhow in the case of some squadrons, to long service men? On the Army Estimates the question was mooted by an hon. Member opposite whether Woolwich and Sandhurst should not be amalgamated. I am not sure that I should not like to see a still greater amalgamation in the training of officers, so that we could have a number of Air Force officers trained at the start in colleges like Sandhurst—or Dartmouth for those who are going into the naval branch—and so that they had a grounding in naval and military work before actually learning to fly. I think it will be the experience of many hon. Members that there is great difficulty in getting flying officers with a
  1836
  sufficient knowledge of military science to enable them to undertake work in cooperation with the Army, and I believe that remark also applies to the Navy, though to a lesser extent.
  We should be very glad if there were more co-operation with the Army in peace time manoeuvres, so that the soldiers themselves might know what part the aircraft play. Time after time I have been on manoeuvres and seen machines come flying over—it seems to me flying very much too close, having regard to the power of modern anti-aircraft machine guns. They fly over just as it is getting dark, and then go back, and we never hear what they have seen, or whether they have seen us at all, though it is most important for soldiers to know exactly what can be seen and to know something of tactical conditions from the air point of view. There is a tendency for the Air Force and the Tank Corps to play by themselves and not to co-operate and give information about what they have been able to find out and what they can do for other branches of the Service. If there were more long service commission men I would like to see some of them serving with soldiers and sailors before they are definitely posted to the Army and Navy co-operation service.
  These considerations lead up to a question which I think there is not time to develop now—and perhaps the time would not be ripe at the moment—but there is an increasing number of Members in this House who believe that the experimental era of aviation is passing, and that soon the Air Ministry should be placed with the Navy and the Army under a Ministry of Defence. In that event, civil aviation would be taken out of the Service and put with other branches of transportation under one great Ministry of Transport and Communications. Under such a Ministry there would be boards working independently, such as we have in the case of the Electricity Board—and shall have in the case of the London Traffic Board, if it is formed—and perhaps the Post Office and Imperial Airways. Various boards might be set up to carry out the executive work, but all would be working together under one great Department to whom all transport questions, questions of electricity supply, and possibly the Post Office service, would be transferred.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain Bourne): I trust the Noble Lord will not discuss proposals which would require legislation when we are considering Supply,
  Lord APSLEY: I am afraid I have wandered a little too fat. I see that the Meteorological Office is included in these Estimates, and that it costs the country £60,000 a year. That is an office in which, to my mind, there is too much duplication, and I honestly do not think we get the best results. They may give excellent service to the Air Force and the naval aviation service, but the ordinary individual who flies cannot get weather reports that are accurate with sufficient quickness. There is considerable room for development in that branch. I raise this point because it is essentially an instance of where, if we had one great Ministry, which included the shipping department of the Board of Trade, we should be able to get far more valuable information. Every ship cruising under the British flag ought to send in weather reports regularly to the weather department of the Meteorological Office, and we should then be able to get an accurate weather report whenever we wished for it.
  Another point with which I should like to deal raises the question of aerodromes in London. Under one Ministry this question would have been tackled long ago. There are aerodromes all round London, but there are no means of quickly getting to them or from them. Those aerodromes were mostly started as small clubs by a number of enthusiastic gentlemen who no doubt lived in London and possessed their own cars, and there was no idea at that time that they would be used by the ordinary individual who comes up to London periodically from the country, say twice a week, and wants to get to some place in the City of London. No provision is made for such air travellers. For the development of Civil Aviation there must be at least one central aerodrome, or a number of outlying aerodromes, with speedy communication with the centre of the Metropolis. That must be brought about, and one Department would have done it. The Ministry of Transport, if working with the Air Ministry, could have done it long ago. I have seen projected a scheme for a large aerodrome to be built over the top of some houses somewhere near King's
  1838
  Cross, and to be in the form of a cartwheel. If that is really so I should be glad if we could have some information about the scheme; and if those plans are only in the air, and are not likely to materialise, I would ask my hon. Friend whether there is not some possibility of vacant land at say, Wormwood Scrubs, being developed as an aerodrome and provided with communication by rail or tube or even omnibus with the centre of London. Without some such provision for people to get into London speedily we shall never really make great strides 'n Civil Aviation in this country.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. AMERY: Tempted though I am to follow my Noble Friend into the very interesting discussion which he has initiated, I feel that I had better confine myself to the theme with which I want to deal, and that is the policy of His Majesty's Government on Disarmament. That policy is referred to very briefly in the Air Minister's Memorandum. It is stated that it is fully explained in a Command Paper, and that no comment is required on the wider aspects of that policy. The manner in which the Secretary of State for Air has dismissed those proposals speaks volumes in itself. It would be very interesting if we could have his own frank comments on the proposition which His Majesty's Government put before the Disarmament Conference at Geneva. Whether the Secretary of State for Air wishes to comment on those proposals or not, I believe the proposals to be so ill thought-out, so unworkable, so fraught with danger to the whole structure of the Empire, that they ought not to pass without challenge or comment in this House.
  Let me remind hon. Members of the genesis of those proposals. In November last the Lord President of the Council delivered a very remarkable speech, which interested, surprised and mystified the House of Commons. It was a speech in which he brushed aside as futile all attempts to disarm by the limitation of the size of aeroplanes or to make provision for protecting the civil population against aerial bombardment, and laid down the doctrine that all air war in future would be a mutual massacring of the civil population, because aerial defence is impossible, and that it would end in the wiping out of European civilisation. He came to the conclusion that

  1839
  if flying itself could not be abolished, which I rather gathered he would like to see, at any rate it was his firm conviction that, if it were possible, all air forces ought to be abolished; and as a corollary to that, and to make it possible, all civil aviation ought to be brought under international control. I believe the House as a whole thought at the time that that speech was just one of those sentimental musings in which my right hon. Friend occasionally indulges when he wishes to avoid dealing too closely with the details of any subject. Unfortunately, we have since learned that those ideas have been put forward to the League of Nations in the shape of a proposal for the complete abolition, by international agreement, of military and naval machines, and of bombing
  " apart from the use of such machines as are necessary for police purposes in outlying places, combined with an effective international control of civil aviation."
  I believe that that proposal, apart from the fact that it never had the -Slightest chance of acceptance, to be unworkable. To begin with, I suppose the idea is that the proposal safeguards us here at home from the fear of bombing, and yet enables us to carry on our police duties in outlying places like India or Iraq. I venture to suggest that the qualification, the exception, if it were really accepted by other Powers, would entirely destroy the scheme. What is "an outlying place," and what is "a police purpose"? From the point of view of the League of Nations, all nations are at home in their own country. Is Iraq an outlying place from the point of view of Iraq, which is a member of the League of Nations It may be from our point of view. Is it the suggestion that we may keep an air force in Iraq because it is an outlying place, but that the Government of Iraq may not keep an air force at home—perhaps keep one only in the Irish Free State? Again, is India, a member of the League of Nations, an outlying place? And if we are dealing with a problem on the frontier of India, dealing with the frontier tribes there, is that a matter of police work And supposing the Afghan forces join with the frontier tribes, are we to distinguish between the Afghan troops whom we may not bomb, and the frontier tribes whom we may bomb?
  1840
  Then, what about the position in Arabia —in Aden, which was delivered from aggression by the Yemen some time ago? Is that police work? Besides, are we the only people with outlying places and police work to do? If there is any justification for our keeping an air force in Iraq and in India, are the French to be denied the use of an air force under similar conditions in Morocco. And if France has an effective and adequate air force in Morocco—I notice that the Lord President of the Council said yesterday that we must adhere to our view that we must have an adequate air force for police purposes—is not that air force immediately available for use in France in the case of a European war? It seems to me that if we once admit the exception to which I have referred we drive a coachand-four through the whole scheme, and it is bound to break down. Therefore I must assume, if the Government really honestly believe in this scheme of theirs, that they will be prepared to drop their exceptions and to do without air forces altogether.
  The whole safety of the British Empire to-day in the Middle-East depends upon the air arm. The experience that we have had in the last 10 years proves conclusively that, in those arid or semi-arid countries, with a scanty population and limited means of transport, the air weapon is the only economical, efficient and humane weapon for keeping the peace. The building up of the Iraq nation under British protection and assistance would have been absolutely impassible, against Turkish aggression—we drove back a serious invasion by the Turkish troops in 1924—or against the Wahabis of the desert or the risings of the Kurdish tribes or even against unrest amongst the Assyrian Levies. All that building up of security and peace would have been absolutely impossible without the air force, or would only have been possible at an expenditure wholly beyond the capacity of this country to bear. Similarly endless troubles in Somaliland were settled at the cost of a few thousand pounds and in a few days, by a few aeroplanes. At Aden, the humiliation of our territory being occupied for years by aggressive forces from the Yemen, and of tribes to whom we had offered protection being left unprotected, was settled in a few days, as one

  1841
  of my hon. Friends has pointed out, at the cost of practically no casualties, by the Air Force.
  The whole problem of the Indian frontier is intimately bound up with the maintenance of an effective Air Force. It is not too much to say that, in these days, when the virile, war-loving barbarian tribes of the East are all possessed of long-range rifles, and have fairly good access to machine-guns and other weapons of precision, the air arm alone defends civilisation against the resurgence of barbarism. Long ago Kipling, in one of his poems, pointed out that the whole question of Indian frontier defence was one of expense, of arithmetic. He said:
  " The captives of our bow and spear
  Are cheap, alas, as we are dear."
  It is only the air defence that enables us with a reasonable measure of economy to uphold civilisation in the Middle East.
  We are prepared at this moment to embark upon a great and hazardous constitutional experiment in India. I am one of those who believe that we ought to go forward with that scheme, but I am well aware of the dangers, and I believe that, whatever other safeguard you include in your Indian scheme, the one safeguard that matters most is India's knowledge, and our knowledge, that we are capable, beyond dispute, of defending India's peace against disturbance from within or against aggression from without. The proposal that the Government have put before the League of Nations would, if accepted, utterly destroy any hope of success for the future self-government of India. We are told that all that is worth sacrificing in order that the people of this country may sleep safe in their beds. That is a very new notion of Imperial responsibility. The picture that the Lord President of the Council drew of an air war in the future was, I believe, wholly distorted and unreal. I believe that my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) has largely dealt with it. All I know is that, at all times, for every new weapon of offence science has found the answer. I entirely refuse to believe that the bomber, flying from the Continental coast, will not in future be effectively noticed, long before he reaches our shores, and effectively dealt with by our own Air Force.
  1842
  Even if the danger that is held out were present, is it going to make for peace that wars should be long-drawn-out? Surely the more effective the weapons of war, the greater the prospect of speedy decision and the less damage inflicted. How much less the world might have suffered if in 1914, either side had possessed the aeroplanes or the tanks that they possess to-day. I believe it to be an entire mistake to despair of practical measures for mitigating the terrors of war, and to fly to wholly impossible suggestions that can never be carried out. The hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Hanley), who made a very interesting maiden speech just now, suggested that if you cannot sufficiently distinguish individual munition factories from the houses around, there is no insuperable difficulty in dividing the country, under modern conditions, into zones, in which military preparation and the movement of troops and the making of munitions are carried out, and, on the other hand, into neutral zones, in which none of those things are carried out, and in which there is a guarantee that the rules of war will be observed. While it is apparently true that, within the military zones, there is some risk of civilians being hit, yet that has always been the case in a bombardment during war-time. A country at war has always been allowed to attack in that way by sea or by land, and there is nothing essentially different between bombardment by long-range projectiles and by a projectile carried by an aeroplane.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: May I intervene? The right hon. Gentleman says that there is nothing to hinder places being separated, so that some places would be neutral. Are we to carry on war in the future as a nice, gentlemanly arrangement, where we only bomb munition factories and things of that sort? At one moment he talks about a fierce war, and then about neutral zones and of segregating certain areas. I may be awfully simple, but I would like the right hon. Gentleman to explain that.
  Mr. AMERY: I think the explanation is afforded by the whole history of war in the past. The division between fortified places which are places of arms and which it is legitimate to attack, and open and undefended cities, is a distinction that is a perfectly recognised one, and in

  1843
  the main has been observed. Even in the last war there was no very great attempt to destroy purely civilian centres for the sake of destroying them. The attempt was made to destroy great railway and munition centres. I believe that it is possible to make some distinction in war between the main centres of military activity and those parts of the country in which the civilian population assembles and no fighting work is carried on. Something of that sort is more possible, and more practicable, than the suggestion that we should stop all use of the air arm.
  Let me come to the necessary corollary, that the proposal is only possible if you can get an effective international control of civil aviation. I wonder what was meant by that? I noticed that Lord Londonderry put a series of questions to the League which practically all answered themselves. He said, "What measures can we take to prevent the seizure of civil aircraft within its own borders by a State which is determined on war?" The answer is very simple. No measures can be taken, because that State will always seize what aeroplanes are within its own territory and use them for its own purpose. He asks, "What are the conditions to be satisfied to prevent the use of civil aircraft for warlike purposes?" There is no way to prevent civil aeroplanes being used for war, in the absence of military aeroplanes, for conveying troops or bombs. You might as well lay down that motor omnibuses should never be used in war-time for the conveyance of troops or of munitions. Once you have developed a great new form of transport for ordinary civilian purposes, you cannot prevent its use for other purposes.
  We are told that we must have international control. What does that mean? Mere registration? If so, by all means let us have it. But what is the use of that? Or does it mean some central, international body, which is to lay down rules as to how many aeroplanes any country may have? Will it lay down that Mrs. Mollison may not try a new flight because she is not to have an aeroplane until Latvia, has had two more? The whole thing is preposterous. As for international administration, that will always be an example of incompetence and inefficiency. Every now and again,
  1844
  the "Times" newspaper correspondent at Tangier gives us some amusing descriptions of international government at that place. The last I remember was the end of the long-drawn-out dispute between France and Spain, which for years prevented the inauguration of a new fire-engine. It was finally settled by Spain providing the pipe and, I think, France providing the engine, while a third Power provided the wheels. If you have international control, who is to be responsible? All these things, to have any real effect, postulate an international government of the world, and we are very far from that.
  Who is going to accept this preposterous suggestion The United States have already announced that they will not have their civil aviation internationally controlled. The United States have 11,000 aeroplanes, more than the rest of the world put together. Will Canada have her civil aviation supervised, and is Australia going to put her rapidly developing scheme of civil aviation, which is doing wonders for the opening up of the country, under the control of some body at Geneva? The whole thing is unworkable, and an attempt to work it would only postpone the development of a great new means of communication which is calculated to contribute far more to an understanding among nations and to the cause of peace than any of the unreal and largely hypocritical discussions at Geneva.
  The Lord President of the Council says that there is no immediate hurry for discussing these matters, and that they are not likely to come to anything for a very long time. That is not a, fair way to treat the subject. It does not exonerate the Government from its responsibility for having brought forward proposals which would be dangerous to the security and peace of the British Empire, and which would mean the abandonment of the responsibilities that we have undertaken. They are proposals which show so little real thought, and such an irresponsibility in introducing them, that, in my case at any rate, they have seriously shaken my confidence in the capacity and fitness of the Government to be trusted with the control of our international relations. It is time that in these matters the Government should bring forward honest proposals which they believe can be carried out, and which they mean to be carried out, and should not make gestures

  1845
  which only help to mislead the public at home, which do nothing for the cause of peace, and which, in the end, lead to disillusionment, if not disaster.
  The Secretary of State, dismissing the wider Government proposals as requiring no comment, says that the "practical proposals" put forward for a general reduction are so-and-so, and refers to the fact that we have asked everyone to reduce to our level and then a further 33 per cent. That is a proposal which at any rate is workable in the sense that, if others adopted it, it could be carried out. But is it really any more practical? Here are we, the fifth air Power in the world, and it suits us, with our naval position, being the fifth air Power, to get every one down to our level; and we put that forward as a serious contribution to the cause of peace. Italy is the fifth naval Power in the world. What should we say if Italy came to the League of Nations and seriously proposed that the navies of the world should be scaled down to the Italian standard, and then 33 per cent. below it? We should regard that as a thoroughly dishonest proposal. I am afraid that behind a great deal of our self-righteous posing as the champions of the cause of disarmament and peace there is not a little of the prudence that belongs to the policy of "Disarm your neighbour first." I think it would be far better to omit the first sentences of that paragraph, and to tackle the last sentence, Which records the fact that:
  " The modest defence programme of 1923 is held in suspense for another year."
  Is it not time that that suspense were ended—that, in view of the admitted failure of the Disarmament Conference, we saw to it that our Air defence, without being excessive, without indicating any aggressive intention, was at any rate adequate to our security? I feel strongly that it is high time that we interrupted the endless circle of gestures and proposals which are not seriously meant, which are not really honest, which do not help forward the cause of peace. Let us get on with the problem of reconciling the world's difficulties, of finding solutions for the political problems which underlie those difficulties. They are individual and local solutions, not susceptible of being dealt with by any cut-and-dried scheme or any method of percentages. Let us work patiently, and, in the meantime, let us maintain at any rate a reason-
  1846
  able minimum of defence for our own needs, showing both that we are capable of defending ourselves and that we have no aggressive intentions towards others.
  6.34 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON: I have listened with great interest to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), bearing in mind the fact that he had a very distinguished career at Harrow, and also that he was at one time First Lord of the Admiralty. I sometimes wish that he had supported the views he expressed this afternoon when he was at the head of the Admiralty.
  Mr. AMERY: I did.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON: Not always. My right hon. Friend dealt with one or two interesting points with regard to objectives for bombing, and, before I pass to the remarks that I would like to address to the House independently of his speech, I would like to draw the attention of the Air Ministry to the fact that an aircraft factory is certainly a legitimate target for bombing, and it is, I think, the duty of the Air Ministry to see that not too many of our aircraft factories are situated in the south, because they are situated now in industrial centres, where an enemy could quite justifiably bomb them and at the same time cause immense damage to the surroundings.
  I would like to pay a very hearty compliment to my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for the way in which he presented these Estimates. His speech was, indeed, one of the most pleasant speeches to listen to, from the point of view of a back bencher, that I have had the pleasure of hearing for a very long time. Of course, it was remarkable, not for what was said, but for what was left out; but we have to remember that this Debate to-day is really a continuation from the Debate which was finished by the Lord President of the Council the other night on Disarmament from the point of view of the air. It will be remembered that he stopped in the middle of an interesting speech, when there were still 10 minutes to go, a Division was taken, everyone was left gaping with his mouth open, and no one replied. I happened to be standing in

  1847
  front of the Bar, or I should have said a word, but I could not get forward.
  I felt that the Lord President, in that speech, did a grave injustice to many of those people, including many of my friends who are dead, who strove and gave their lives for the creation of aviation. He said that he wished that aeroplanes had never been invented. I think that that was an unjustifiable thing to say. After all, those people who made flying a possibility in this world never thought that they were inventing a great engine of destruction. They thought that they were producing something which was going to be of value to the world, and it is ridiculous to think, in these days, of the possibility that this great gift from God should be done away with and destroyed simply because it happens to be unpleasant during war. I know it is unfortunate that we have the brand of Cain upon the aeroplane, but I think that we ourselves are a good deal to blame in this matter. My right hon. Friend and I, and many others whom I see here to-night, have preached year after year on these Estimates and in the Press the importance of air armaments and the destruction that can be effected through the air. I think that we have over-exaggerated our case, and that, to use an old Air Force term, we "put the wind up" the population to such an extent that they came to think, quite honestly, that a place like London could be exterminated in a few days by aerial bombardment. That is absolute and entire nonsense. We have to understand that all things are relative, and, although a very intense aerial bombardment would be unpleasant, it really would not be so disastrous as that.
  Mr. EDWARD WILLIAMS: The hon. and gallant Member is certainly an expert on these matters, and Members of the House are pleased to hear what he has to say regarding them, but, surely, we are under a misapprehension if we fail to realise what aerial bombardment could do to London. We read in pamphlets and in the Press of the enormous damage that could be done, and the hon. and gallant Member is advancing an entirely new idea, of which I should like him to give an explanation.
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON: I do not know how far I could go ahead
  1848
  on that particular theme, but I might, perhaps, point out to the hon. Gentleman what happened in the case of Dunkirk. Dunkirk was bombed three times a night for months on end by a squadron of German aeroplanes, which had the easiest task to find the town by flying along the coast. No town was ever subjected to such an aerial bombardment for so long; and yet people lived in it with comparative comfort. It was not destroyed off the face of the earth. And it is quite a small town as compared with London.
  Mr. E. WILLIAMS: What about poison gases?
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON: Poison gases, I believe, consist to a large extent of hot air. We have not had experience of them from the point of view of dropping them from the skies, and we do not know much about them in that regard. Nor would they be particularly efficacious if there were any wind. We have now to deal with London fogs, and, compared with them, the case of poison gas is very simple. Coming back to the question of Geneva and of the control of aviation, I resent very much the suggestion that we could go into the consideration of this subject at all without including Russia, which is concentrating enormously upon the development of air armament, and without including America. America has put forward some of the most amazing suggestions with regard to her own position that I have ever seen seriously advanced.
  I have been trying lately to help this subject by serving on a sub-committee of the League of Nations Union, and some of the dope that is poured out to the people at Geneva is brought to that committee. Really, some of these documents are absolutely the most consummate balderdash that I have ever listened to. There is a Mr. Gibson, who tells us the most amazing things about American aviation. He tells us—I think it has been quoted already—that there are 10,000 aeroplanes in America, only 70 of which can be used for military purposes. Can anyone imagine that to be the case? We are told also that America ought to obtain exemption from control, if there is to be world control, because of her curious meteorological conditions. I hope that too much attention will not be

  1849
  paid to those two nations and their objections to control. Certainly from our own side, as has been pointed out, some of the best half-baked schemes have been put forward by defeatist half-wits from the Foreign Office that have ever been seen. I should like to ask my right hon. Friend if those schemes have been "vetted" by the Air Ministry, or if they have ever said that they agree to them? Or were they just chucked off as a way of passing an afternoon, without reference to any of the experts in charge of the air side?
  We have been told that the Air Forces of the world—including, of course, our own—should be done away with, and in that connection I would like to say this to the House of Commons. I have been plugging along every year since the War making speeches on these Votes, and we have not really had any enemy outside. The enemy of the Air Force is not across the Channel, it is in Whitehall. Everybody knows perfectly well that the people who want to do away with the Air Force are the Army and the Navy. That sticks out a mile. When we come to putting forward some question of policy to the Government, the Cabinet are guided by the advice of the right hon. Gentlemen who preside over the War Office and the Admiralty; but they should be out of court and out of the room when anything is to be decided about the Air. They have failed time and again in their frontal attacks with the object of doing away with the Air Force, and now they say that, if they cannot do it by a frontal attack, they will do it by a sweeping movement at the side. When the suggestion has been made that the Air Force should be done away with, was not that exactly what the Admiralty and the War Office wanted Of course it was. It was their suggestion, ably backed up in the Cabinet by half-wits. Some time ago, when the Air Force said that they could take on the administration of Iraq, what was the advice given by the great General Staff to the Cabinet at the time? It was that it would be perfectly impossible, and that a great disaster would follow any such attempt. On the contrary, however, it has been a complete triumph for the Air Force; it saved us millions of pounds. And there are many other ways in which air power can be used instead of other and more expensive services.
  1850
  I should like to say a word about civil aviation, because on that subject we need a little clear thinking. When civil aviation started, it represented a movement which automatically should have become an internationalising force. In every country in Europe to-day you will find the most excessive subsidies on civil aviation. Those subsidies do not really produce civil aviation machines. They produce war machines disguised as civil aviation. In Germany, which of ocurse is deprived of warlike aviation, they have a most elaborate system of subsidised civil aviation. It is not necessary in any way. It is really only a potential resource for war. We in this country have been, as we always are, the most honest of all people. Our service from London to Paris is the only one in the world that could exist without any subsidy at all. I quite agree that, when we are pushing those big lines right down to Africa and throughout the world, they could not be self-supporting if it were not for subsidies.
  One of the troubles to-day is subsidies, and the fear of the use of civil aviation for bombing in the first weeks of a war, the fact of civil aviation being turned into military aviation. I believe that, if subsidies were withdrawn by agreement at the League of Nations, the amount of civil aviation would decrease—anyhow, that type of civil aviation which is really war aviation in disguise. Our defence against commercial aviation disguised as military aviation is a really efficient Air Force of our own. Although we keep on saying we are only the fifth Air Force in the world, it was always our pride that on the technical side our equipment was the highest. I sincerely hope that my hon. Friend can tell me that that is being maintained, The Government, as years go on, and as they continue to live in a world of self-deception and flattery in which all Governments live, get their ears off the ground. I hope they will understand that the country is feeling very anxious over the Air Service. They are not content to remain the fifth Air Power. They are not content not to have a basis of a one-Power standard. By all means go to Geneva and try to convince them that they should reduce their air forces, but, if you cannot make them reduce theirs, we ought at least to insist upon equality with them. It is preposterous that we-

  1851
  should go on for ever in the position of being the fifth Power. I believe equality is vital to us and is desired by the country. The right hon. Gentleman knows that we could have put ourselves in that position by using only a third of the increase on the other two Services. That is a very serious thing for the Government to consider.
  I end on a note which I have repeatedly made year after year on these Estimates, that is, that the money that we are spending upon the Air, upon the Navy and upon the Army is only one thing, and that is the defence of the country; and yet year after year the great Departments will not allow the Government or the House of Commons to look at this as one subject. Again, this year I ask the House to notice that it was only by luck that we were allowed to see the Estimates of one Department before we were called to approve those of another. I do not come here to plead for a Ministry of Imperial Defence. That is, perhaps, going too far, but I think the House of Commons has a right to know to what it is committed from the point of view of expenditure on the safety of the Realm. That we should be allowed to debate the relative expenditure on one Service and another on some Vote is absolutely essential. I hope that another year we shall have plenty of time to consider the three Votes, from the point of money, together, and then we shall be able to show how one Service might be curtailed at the expense of another and vice versa, because it is only along those lines that we can see that we are getting true economy and an efficient defence of the country.
  6.52 p.m.
  Mr. E. WILLIAMS: I cannot claim to possess any expert or technical knowledge about aviation, whether civil or military, but I certainly think that our point of view ought to be advanced. If I- am to accept most of the speeches that have been made, it would appear that humanity is doomed and damned and that, if science and technique advance during the next decade at anything like the same rate of progress that they have advanced during past years, we are in fact faced with mutual annihilation.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) delivered one of the most jingo speeches that I have
  1852
  ever heard since I have been in the House. He believes that it is only possible for this nation to save itself by continually increasing the number of aeroplanes, and I presume seaplanes, until we obtain a strength which will be substantially greater than that of any other nation. He asks that we should face up to realities. I ask hon. Members to reflect upon the position in Germany. Germany was considered to have been definitely beaten in the Great War, and the right hon. Gentleman endeavoured to place certain penalties upon her by way of reparations. To-day she is in the throes of a revolution. At this very moment it would seem that the Corridor which was founded by the Versailles Treaty is likely to be the cause of another war. Hon. Members are advancing the case for an increase in expenditure upon civil aviation in order that it may be used for military purposes as a protection against Germany, which was supposed to be destroyed as a military nation. When can we reach anything like the end of the tether if by mere circumlocution one is to go from one war to another?
  The Lord President of the Council, I think, was positively wrong when he spoke of the consequences that would occur if another war broke out, and the dire effect that aviation would have upon the population. He was wrong when he said that the future depended upon young men. After the speeches that I have heard to-day, I am convinced that the old men are the enemies of human society. Every old man who has spoken has advocated an increase in armaments and in the weapons that the young men will be obliged to use in the next war. The old men are really a serious danger to civilisation and society, and not the young men. I endeavoured to ask myself, when listening to the Debate, why these conflicts are likely to arise which will cause the next war? I do not believe that the populations of the various countries desire war at all. If war takes place, it will probably be because there is definite economic conflict between one nation and another. I can see the possibility of civil aviation being utilised for military purposes. I can see Imperial Airways being utilised as a means not only, of defence but also of offence by this nation, but at bottom the cause of the conflict will be commercial and

  1853
  economic. Consequently, I can see no possibility of abolishing war until we take control of the manufacture of armaments and abolish the conflicts of interest which obtain as between one nation and another.
  I do not wish to impute anything like dishonourable motives. I should not like to impute, for instance, that hon. Members are desirous of maintaining the Army in order that their sons may obtain a profession, or that they are desirous of maintaining these Services not so much to defend the country against an aggressor as to provide an occupation so that their sons may become the rulers of the working classes and keep them in their place. I want to assume that they are quite honest about this matter; that they would like to abolish war; that they look upon war as a danger, and that they are prepared to make their contribution, if possible, towards that end. On the other hand, if I have to do that, I have to analyse the contributions which have been made. From the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) we have had nothing with which I can agree except one thing, that is, his condemnation of the Government for their unfitness to produce a policy for dealing with civil aviation, and for the political circumstances in which we are placed. Apart from that statement, not one word was uttered by him to indicate how it is possible to eliminate the danger of war breaking out. For instance, there is the Locarno Pact, with which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping had much to do.
  If, as now seems very likely, trouble arises in Poland, in which there is a substantial proportion of French capital invested, and if along that Corridor trouble is produced, France will be inevitably inveigled into that struggle, purely on economic grounds. Because we are signatories to the Locarno Pact, we will at once be drawn in in support of France. Nothing has been said in this Debate by hon. Members to place before the Government plans to obviate what seems very imminent at this moment, if we accept what is said in the Press of this country. Surely the suggestion, advanced from these benches, of international control should be considerable. There is, I think, sufficient intelligence in this country—a sufficient number of educationists
  1854
  and scientists, as well as practical, broadminded men, who would willingly give of their service to this nation—and I believe that obtains in most nations—to propound a plan which would obviate another war. I believe that there are persons in this country sufficiently humanitarian to realise the enormous consequences which will befall this nation if another war breaks out.
  Yet there is nothing coming from right hon. Members at all, except jingo speeches. They say we must increase this new defence arm. It is known, as a positive fact, that it is not a defence armat all, but an arm of attack. At a moment when something catastrophic takes place between the nations, that which is seemingly defensive becomes offensive. Certainly anything that can be done to destroy the moral of another nation will be one of the first phases of tactics considered by this nation, as it would likewise be considered by any other. The bombing of the City of London and our industrial centres, the bombing of Paris—these things are considered essential for military purposes to destroy the moral of the people. It is not that they desire to slay innocent people as such, but it will be done to produce effect upon those they consider their dire enemies. I certainly could not agree to a substantial proportion of the remarks advanced by hon. Members, They look upon war as being absolutely inevitable. They say that we must have a force at least comparable with one of the greatest forces in the world. They consider that the only possible means by which we can escape being annihilated in this country. It would seem to me that we are not really living many stages above savagery.
  With science and technique at our disposal, and even this greatest and most revolutionary of things, aviation, which is abolishing boundaries and making humanity a fact, we still go back into the depths of barbarism and preach an increase of all weapons of destruction. That means in the ultimate the annihilation of the human race. I wish that hon. Members would put forward some proposals which would make us face realities as we see them to-day. Germany, apparently militaristically annihilated, is to-day in the throes of a revolution. We have to be prepared, using civil, aviation,

  1855
  to place ourselves on equality with France. This, apparently, has got to go on until we get right back into savagery. As all national barriers have been annihilated by aviation, aviation ought to become a matter of international control. If national barriers do not prevent aviation crossing the world, obviously it is of itself, in factual truth, an international weapon, and it ought to come under international control. It ought to be used as an international weapon for policing the world, and not for defensive, which can be twisted into offensive, purposes that may be used to annihilate humanity.
  7.8 p.m.
  Mr. WHITESIDE: Having addressed a meeting earlier in the afternoon, I have not been able to listen to all the speeches which have been made. I would, therefore, crave the indulgence of the House should I inadvertently use any of the arguments already put forward in discussing these Estimates. In discussing these Estimates we should bear uppermost in our minds the fact that they are of a dual character. They represent a morganatic marriage between military and civil aviation—a union which, in my view, should never have taken place. It was, perhaps, a little unfortunate that flying first came into prominence during the War. Flight as a means of reconnoitring the enemy's position became of paramount importance. Since the War a new Ministry, surrounded by all the paraphernalia and red tape of a Government Department, has become part and parcel of the organisation of most European Powers. As a. result, civil aviation has been controlled and hemmed in by a military oligarchy. The effect has been two-fold. The public regard aviation almost entirely from the military aspect and commercial aviation has been retarded.
  The extent to which this military psychology has permeated the minds of the public is shown by the sustained, almost hysterical, demands that aviation should be controlled by the League of Nations. In my view, any man in his right senses must wish the League of Nations well. But we, who are Members of this House, are responsible for the safety not only of our own nationals, but of our brethren throughout the Empire. It is a remark-
  1856
  able fact that those who vaunt themselves as the champions of peace make exactly the same speeches, whatever the size of these Estimates may be. If the House will permit me to say so, I think that those who make these criticisms would be doing a far greater service to this country and to the world if they would state outright whether they believe in the total disarmament of this country, irrespective of what other nations may do, or state categorically the level of armaments they consider it necessary for us to bear.
  During the last year certain suggestions have been made with regard to the control of aviation. They fall under three heads. The first is the total abolition of all military aircraft. The second is the total abolition of all national military aircraft, and the substitution of a League air force. The third is the control of civil aviation, and the formation of international air lines. Let us briefly examine these suggestions. As long as military aircraft are in existence, there is no danger from civilian machines. Abolish military aircraft and every civilian machine, no matter how inoffensive, becomes a potential danger. Such a suggestion, therefore, if carried out, would not decrease the risk of aerial bombardment., but increase the dangers a thousand-fold.
  The formation of a League air arm is impracticable. The machines of such an air force would have to be made in some country, or countries, and, under modern conditions of production, those nations could, if they should so wish, produce an almost unlimited number of similar machines in a very short space of time. The air arm of the League would have to possess a general staff. That staff would be composed of the nationals of some country, because the League of Nations possesses no corporate spirit. The duty of that staff would be to prepare plans to meet every eventuality. Every one of these plans would be known in advance, and would be futile. I read in the "Evening News" of 7th March:
  " Britain had accepted the French plan for the creation of an international air police, to come into being simultaneously with the abolition of military and naval aviation. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs specified, however, that each country's contingent in such a police force should be maintained in its own territory, instead of in some neutral country."

  1857
  What in the name of all that is commonsense is the difference between that police force and our present Royal Air Force? Are we to suppose that the present Air Minister, rechristened by the League of Nations Air Chief Constable, will, if this country is declared by a majority of the League, through the casting vote of Czechoslovakia, to be in the wrong, set out to bomb his own house in Park Lane? Are we to suppose that if the League of Nations find it necessary in the future to send a punitive aerial expedition against this country, our own air police force will join in the slaughter? Or will they oppose it? The Prime Minister can come back from Geneva and tell such tales to the marines or to the League of Nations Union, but he cannot expect us in the Mother of Parliaments of an Imperial Empire to accept such suggestions with enthusiasm. Are we to continue to pay thousands of pounds for the upkeep of the League When we have 3,000,000 starving people on the dole in order that our Ministers shall come back to this country and talk such utter nonsense? I beg, I entreat those who are striving for world peace, those statesmen who are being backed up by the whole of the country, to be realists as well as
  idealists. We are living in a concrete world filled with many horrors but crowned with beauty, and not in a mythical land of snake-believe.
  But is the Air arm a danger to civilisation? War is resorted to by one nation in order to compel another country to submit to terms which the former considers desirable. It is resorted to by force of arms. Those forces are controlled by a central authority. Destroy that central authority and your forces will have no cohesion; peace must follow. It is the very object of aerial attack to destroy the enemy's headquarters and so end the war. The last War dragged on for four and a half years. It was ended not by force of arms, but by the slow premeditated starvation of a great people. It affected every man, woman and child in the enemy Powers, and as a result of under-nourishment and nervous exhaustion it will affect the lives of many yet unborn. For four and a half years none knew from one moment to another whether they were going to be attacked. For four and a half years nobody knew whether their loved ones were dead, alive or mutilated. War does
  1858
  not affect those it kills. Death is but the passing from one sphere to another in Eternity. The curse, the awfulness of war is that it destroys the soul, the manhood of the living. I say in all sincerity I would rather see a great city like London totally annihilated by an aerial attack for the war to end, than that 42,000,000 of our people should be compelled to pass through years of living hell. The formation of an international air arm is practicable, but what possible security that could be is beyond my comprehension, because in the event of war every one of the machines would be confiscated by the Government of the country in which it was housed.
  As for the control of Civil Aviation, the League might just as well attempt to control the production, design, buying and selling of motor cars or matches. Nor is any form of limitation or quota possible. Upon what is a quota to be based? Is it to be upon area, the number of your population, your needs, or the enterprise of the individual people in the country? I can imagine such a quota being put into practice. One of my friends goes into Henly's and says that he wants to buy an aeroplane. The saleman puts on a mournful expression and says, "I am very sorry, Sir, we have already sold up to our quota, but we saw Mr. Smith flying yesterday, and we, think that he will shortly crash and kill himself, and when he is dead and his machine is destroyed we shall be very pleased to sell you another one in substitution."
  I will now turn to the Estimates which are before us. They are the result of a compromise between the Treasury, the Foreign Office, the Admiralty, the War Office, the Air Ministry and the Cabinet Committee of Imperial Defence. The ratio between the Army and the Air Force, and between the Navy and the Air Force is roughly two to one and three to one respectively. Is the Navy worth three times the Air Force? The Navy has guaranteed our food supplies in the past, but can the Navy to-day protect London, karachi, Singapore, Malta, Calcutta or any other of our great cities from devastation from the air? What is the use of guaranteeing the food supplies of a great city if your population has been wiped out? Dead men do not eat. It is however impossible to

  1859
  wipe out a great city by aerial attack, and those vociferous pacifists who go about the country and tell people that sort of thing do not know what they are talking about. The air arm is, however, the most potent of the three Services. I believe that a great many of the duties at present undertaken by the Army and the Navy can just as efficiently, and far more cheaply, be undertaken by the Air Force. Surely the trouble in Cyprus and in other parts of the world has demonstrated that fact amply. Et is often assumed by some hon. Members that the possession of arms makes for war. I do not believe it. Can any hon. Member of this House from the smooth, suave, cultured Member for Oxford University to the intellectual, pertinent, pugnacious Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) seriously get up and say, because we have a highly efficient Air Force and Germany has no Air Force at all, that we wish to attack the Germans: or because France has a large Army and we have a comparatively small Army, that the French wish to fight us? It is
  not true. It is not armaments which make for war; it is the fear of war which causes the anxiety for armaments. I, personally, do not believe that armaments will give us any security in the future. They merely provide employment.
  When another war comes the danger will not be from explosives from aerial attacks. The danger will come from germs and gases. I do not believe that war will even be declared. When one nation wishes to wipe out another nation it will infect rats with anthrax and plague and let them loose, or it will send through the parcel post germs so potent that when the packet is opened that nation will be completely wiped out. That is the danger to civilisation, and no peace pact, convention or any other power in the world can prevent it. I believe that if men and women are not prepared to turn and bow before a wisdom greater than the wisdom of this world, civilisation will inevitably be wiped out. That is the answer which youth gives to the speech of the Lord President of the Council. The danger to world civilisation to-day, as I see it, comes from that great country Russia, whose leaders openly deny the existence of God and look upon Christianity as an idle superstition. But I believe that
  1860
  man's conquest of the air is one of the greatest tangible advances towards the securing of world peace. What greater power for peace is there than that of enabling men of all nations and races to get together and know and understand one another?
  That brings me to the second part of the Estimates, that dealing with Civil Aviation. During the last few months a considerable agitation has been got up to free civil aviation from Air Ministry control. I do not believe that the criticisms are altogther justified. The Air Ministry has been the friend of civil aviation, and I do not believe that civil aviation would have progressed as it has progressed had it not been for the friendly Do-operation of the Air Ministry. On the other hand, I think the time has now come when that grip might be relaxed. I refer to the A.I.D. inspection. I would not, on purely psychological grounds, suggest that the regulations governing public service aeroplanes should be loosened, but I can see no reason why constructors in approved firms should not now be permitted to design and construct light aeroplanes of a seating capacity of five or under without any Air Ministry control. The approved firms have a reputation to maintain, and such a suggestion, if coupled with compulsory third party insurance, would not, in my view, lead to any diminution of the factor of safety.
  So far as I can see, the Air Ministry are confronted with one of two alternatives in this matter. Either they assume that the experts of the Air Ministry know more about stresses and design than the industry itself, or else those experts are relying on data obtained from the industry. But, as the science of aerodynamics is not fully known, they are of necessity examining new proposals on data which is out of date, and therefore retarding development. Civil aviation is fighting an uphill battle. It has to contend with this appalling military psychology. The papers are filled with pictures of new interceptor fighters. The Prime Minister, a pacifist, when he travels, charters a military machine. The greatest aerial pageant in the world—Hendon—is entirely military. The long distance and speed records are held by the Royal Air Force in co-operation with firms producing military machines. It is no small wonder then that ignorant men are alarmed at the prospects of future flying.

  1861
  I mentioned previously that man's conquest of the air was a tremendous power for peace. I will now substantiate that statement. The air is truly international. The machines themselves are often of a composite character. There is the German Klemm fitted with a British Cirrus or Pobjoy engine. You have the Dutch Fokker flying with an American Pratt Witney Wasp engine, all purely a matter of efficiency. Pilots are international in outlook. They recognise no frontiers or barriers. It is the land folk, with their Governments, who compel us to carry passports, carnets, triptiques and a multitude of other intergovernmental red tape. Why cannot we be allowed free to fly where and whence we will? The pilot's job in life is to bring men together.
  Let me give one further illustration to make my point. One hundred years ago, before the industrial revolution, each county in England endeavoured to make itself self-supporting. Then came the industrial revolution; men poured from the country into the towns, and the country, as a result, suffered. Later railways were invented and as a direct result business men carried out their business in the cities and had their homes in the country. England became one economic whole, and the whole prospered. To-day, the world is suffering from a similar upheaval. Nations have taken the place of the counties. Is it impossible to conceive that this new means of transport, the air, will not unite first the Empire and then the world into one economic whole in exactly the same way as the railways have united individual nations?
  The Government are striving to cure the unemployment problem. I represent a constituency in the North. Although I believe there will be a revival in the iron and coal trade I do not believe that the heavy industries will ever again employ the same number of people as they have done in the past. The North must look for a new industry. Here is a new industry. It is no use going out trying to recapture lost markets. You must cut new virgin ground. The Empire has large tracts of barren land. There are such tracts in Canada and Australia, and they are waiting to be exploited. They will never be exploited until adequate means of transport are provided. Canada
  1862
  possesses two aircraft manufacturing firms, with four competing American firms. Australia has only two aircraft manufacturing firms. What a market for expansion is waiting ready to be exploited. Here is our opportunity. Years ago, Disraeli bought up the shares of the Suez Canal and his vision has since brought tremendous wealth to this country. What we want to-day is men with similar vision, who will exploit the air.
  If I have proved my case and the air is a force for peace and not a peril for war, I humbly submit certain suggestions to the Government. Let the President of the Board of Trade when he enters into new agreements with foreign countries make sure that a clause is inserted saying that in future this nation may be allowed the freedom of the air over those countries. It is impossible to build up great international and imperial air lines if your concessions are liable to be cancelled at a moment's notice. We must have concessions for a period of 30 years. During those discussions I would suggest that the President of the Board of Trade enters into an arrangement with foreign countries with regard to the limitation and the final abolition of subsidies for civil aviation. Sooner or later civil aviation must fly on a proper economic basis, and the sooner the better. I would submit to the Minister of Health that in future when he sanctions any town and country planning Bill he will see that in that Bill adequate proposals are made for the provision of future aerodromes. It is no use having aerodromes which are miles from the center of the cities. I would suggest to the Secretary for the Department of Overseas Trade that he should instruct his Consuls in future to push British machines. The Consuls of foreign countries are nothing more nor less than glorified salesmen, and I would suggest that our Consuls be the same.
  The Minister who can do more than any other is the Postmaster-General. The Postmaster-General is a man of enterprise. He, in co-operation with his Department, has produced two types of telephones, which sometimes work. The Post Office is to-day going out on a great selling drive, and the Postmaster-General, with gigantic courage, has given instructions that his officers should paint those

  1863
  telephones red, blue, old gold and silver. Having done so, he comes down to this House, his face beaming with Pickwickian smiles, expressing: "What a good boy am. I !" But there his enterprise stops. Does the Postmaster-General select slow cargo boats to carry the mail at a very low rate? No. He pays thousands of pounds to buy cargo space in fast ocean liners, tearing through the water at perhaps 20 knots, but he does not charge the public additional postage for that concession. He pays for it himself. But when it comes to the air mail he will not give one penny piece to Imperial Airways to carry the air mail at 150 miles an hour.
  If I should suggest to the House that in future when sending a letter from London to Nether Stowey one should be compelled to put a direction on the top of the envelope to show how that letter was to be carried, the House would consign me to Bedlam, but that is exactly what the Postmaster-General expects in regard to the air mail. If any hon. Member will go to the Post Office in the lobby and wishes to post a letter to Australia he will write on the envelope: "Australia Air Mail." But that does not mean that his letter will be carried by air mail to Australia. He will be charged 4d. extra, but his letter will go out to Australia by the normal land and sea routes and will be carried by internal air mail in Australia. If you want to send a letter to Australia by air you have to put a direction on the top of the envelope: "India air Mail, London to Karachi, Internal Air Mail, Australia." You will be charged a further 7d. But if you want to send a letter out to Australia quickly you will not send it by British post at all. You will post your letter to Amsterdam and 'have it carried by the Dutch line KLM to Sumatra. For two and a-half years the Dutch have been running a regular air mail and passenger service to Sumatra in only one day outside our record to Australia. What is the Postmaster-General going to do about that?
  In order to stimulate postage within the Empire the Postmaster-General charges one flat rate for all letters in the Empire. It costs no more to send a letter to Australia than to send a letter from S.W.1 to S.W.2. The procedure of the Post Office is to utilise the profit on one service to defray the loss which they
  1864
  make on another service, but so far as the air mail is concerned every stage of the service has to pay for itself. In order to stimulate postage within the Empire the Postmaster-General charges 1½d. Distance is of no matter. If you want to send a letter to a foreign country, say, France, he will charge you but 2½d so far as the air mail is concerned he completely reverses his policy. He will charge you 4d. to carry a one-ounce letter to France and 2s. to carry it to South Africa, one of our own Dominions. I would ask the Postmaster-General to state the reasons for this complete volte face so far as the air mail is concerned.
  I would make a very humble suggestion to the Postmaster-General. If he wishes to earn a public funeral from a grateful nation he should follow in the footsteps of his great predecessor, Rowland Hill. Rowland Hill, in spite of every opposition, decided to reduce the cost of postage and to carry the mail by the then fastest known means of transport. Let the Postmaster-General do exactly the same. Let him charge a flat rate of 2d., 3d. or 4d., and send every letter to the East by air mail. If he will do that he will capture for this country the entire air mail to the East for the whole of Europe and bring unbounded prosperity to his Department. There I will leave the matter. If the Postmaster-General will not give adequate reasons for this extraordinary discrimination against our own Empire and against the air mail services, I shall be compelled to pursue this subject further across the Floor of the House, in language enlivened with a plethora of adjectives. I will not detain the House longer. The Prime Minister has asked for suggestions with regard to unemployment, and I would submit the proposals to him which I have just made. The country to-day is longing to hear more about the air. A generation is growing up to whom the air is no more an unnatural phenomena than the motor car. They have never known a world without aeroplanes, and they are longing to know more about them. I would suggest that the Air Ministry, in co-operation with the air industry, should choose some man of character, personality, courage and enterprise to go round this country and Canada and Australia and explain to the people the truth about the air, so that when the

  1865
  air comes into its own, they will be prepared to travel by air from one end of the earth to the other, so that men of all nations and races will be able to get together and understand each other; for in the hands of knowledge and understanding lies the future of the peace of the world.
  7.46 p.m.
  Mr. McKEAG:I do not profess to be an expert on air services, and therefore I do not propose to follow the last speaker through the labyrinthine pathways which he has so exhaustively and elaborately explored. Nor do I propose to follow the general trend of the Debate this evening, which has been largely concentrated on a contemplation of what would be the position of our aircraft in the next war, which all parties seem to be agreed is becoming more and more imminent, except to say that it is indeed a most tragic and lamentable thing that in this year of grace 1933 the British House of Commons should be accepting the probability of another world conflagration in the near future with such remarkable equanimity.
  I only want very briefly to examine one aspect of the Estimates and to mention two points in connection with them. That aspect is the subsidy to Imperial Airways, Limited, amounting, I believe, to a gross sum of over £500,000 per annum. That is a very large subsidy, and I do not know what measure of control the Government exercise with regard to this company. Indeed, I do not know whether any control at all is exercised. Whatever may be the position in this regard, however, I submit—and I think it will be conceded by the House—that where such a large amount of the taxpayers' money is given to a private undertaking by way of subsidy, steps should at least be taken to ensure that that undertaking is not operated in a wasteful or profligate manner.
  There is, I believe, some disquiet in certain quarters as to whether this subsidy is being used by Imperial Airways to the best possible advantage, and I would like to ask the Under-Secretary of State if he will take steps to satisfy himself that every effort is made by Imperial Airways, Limited, to eliminate extravagance and waste. A subsidised concern is very apt to become overridden with
  1866
  unnecessary officials, and if the Under Secretary of State will make investigations he will probably find that the number of those employed by Imperial Airways in managerial and official capacities is out of all proportion to the number of men employed on purely productive work. I think the House is entitled to ask that real vigilance should be exercised by the Government in this matter, having regard to the very large sum of over £500,000 per annum which is paid to that company by way of subsidy.
  I would like next to ask the Under-Secretary of State if he is satisfied that proper treatment is being meted out to the rank and file of this company's British staff in Egypt and elsewhere. I ask that question because I understand—and here let me say that I am not entirely without information—that the English members of the rank and file of this company in Egypt are worked in such a way that they are contemptuously referred to by the natives as the white wogs of Egypt. It may be in the recollection of some Members of the House that the term "wog" in Egypt means the lowest type of native slave. Obviously, this sort of thing can only be very damaging indeed to our prestige in Egypt, and here again I would ask the Government to exercise real vigilance. Clearly, in any concern where there are too many bosses it is inevitable that there should be inefficiency and hardship created to the rank and file. I have endeavoured to make these two points in very moderated terms, but I ask that the Under-Secretary of State should take notice and make such investigations as will satisfy him, on the one hand, that not only are there not extravagance and waste, but that there is proper treatment meted out to the rank and file of the British staff of this company in Egypt and elsewhere.
  7.53 p.m.
  Rear-Admiral SUETER: I should like, first, to congratulate the Under-Secretary of State for Air on the able way in which he has put forward these Estimates. We always take great interest in him, because he is a practical airman, and I think he handles air matters very well indeed. But this year I am profoundly disappointed with him and with the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Air, because they have let the older Services get away with too much of the swag or

  1867
  with what the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) used to call too much of the loot. This year they have let the Navy get away with £3,000,000 extra and the Army with £1,500,000 extra, while the Air Service is reduced, according to the figures given us by the Under-Secretary of State, by some £340,000. They have stopped a school of flying instruction and reduced the number of personnel by some 1,000 men.
  When we consider all these defence problems, we must bear in mind that before the War the Navy and the Army were responsible for the defence of this country and the Empire, but during and since the War the Air Force has come into being, and one naturally asks oneself, Can the Navy prevent an aerial bombardment of London; can the Army prevent an aerial bombardment of our great manufacturing centres; can the Army and Navy prevent an aerial bombardment of our dockyards or even our homes? Surely home defence should be our first consideration. We could not carry on a war if our great cities, our manufacturing towns, our dockyards, and our homes were being bombed; and if it is accepted that home defence should be our first consideration, then the air becomes our first line of defence.
  If hon. Members look at these Estimates, they will find that £108,000,000 is devoted to defence purposes. The Navy gets £53,000,000, the Army nearly £38,000,000, and the Air £17,500,000; that is to say, one-sixth of the total amount of money allowed for defence purposes:s for the Air. The Navy and the Army cannot protect us in any way from aerial bombardment, and I submit that it is quite wrong that our homes should be open to bombardment from the air without any adequate protection. There is something wrong with these Estimates, that the air should get only one-sixth of the total amount, that we are going to vote £108,000,000 in this House, and we have not even our homes protected. I submit to every Member of this House that there is something wrong in the framing of these Estimates, and that is why many Members join with me in asking that there should be an unbiased committee set up to go into the whole problem of defence. I am certain that if that were done, and they took the air
  1868
  on its merits, they would see that the air got more than one-sixth of the total amount allowed for defence. I am very disappointed indeed that the Under-Secretary of State and the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Air have not dug their feet in and got more money this year for the air.
  May I approach this problem from a different angle? During the War we lost some 6,500,000 tons Q f shipping due to the German submarines, and on several days in the Mediterranean in 1915 we lost £2,000,000 worth of shipping a day. Suppose we had had our ships open to air attack as well as to submarine attack. We had to feed London by ships going up the Channel, and we could only feed London through its own port. We had these ships going up the Channel, and if hon. Members will look at the chart of our foodships and our trading ships that were sunk by submarines, they will see them all in the approaches to the Channel. If we had had hostile aircraft as well bombing those ships, we should have been in a very bad way in the War. At one time we had only 10 days' provisions in this country, and if we had had air attack as well as submarine attack, if we had had aircraft dropping bombs and locomotive torpedoes on our food ships, we should have starved in this country.
  Therefore, I would say to the pacifists that what we are out to do is to try to protect their food coming up Channel, and I submit that at least we ought to have a one-Power standard in the air.' Nobody can say what is going to happen. in Europe. This week-end we were deluged in all the papers with most alarming statements about the Polish corridor, and even in the "Daily Herald" yesterday I saw that war was going to come in Europe in a. very short time. I think it is prudent for us that we should have at least a one-Power standard in the air for that reason alone, because we never know that we shall not have to hold the balance in Europe.
  We hear a great deal in these Debates about doing away with naval and military aircraft and having an international air force- at Geneva under the League of Nations. Would that be in the country's interests? I submit that it would not. The League of Nations at the moment cannot define what an aggressor State is,

  1869
  and one of the delegates at Geneva said, "You cannot define what an aggressor State is, so you had better bomb both sides from the air." It would be against our interests to have a League of Nations military air force. Suppose we had serving in it some of our own nationals. Would they be called upon to bomb Portsmouth, and if they refused, would they be shot for refusing to do their duty? The whole thing is impossible. Also if we did away with the naval and military air forces and had a League of Nations air force, we would abrogate our sovereign rights, and I do not think there is anyone in the House who would agree to give them up.
  Mr. G. MACDONALD: Certainly I would.
  Rear-Admiral SUETER: We cannot give up our sovereign rights. It would be perfectly suicidal for us to do so. We are told that we should give up our naval and military air force and internationalise civil aviation. What would that mean? It would simply mean that the civil machine would tend towards military design. You could see that very easily last year at the French Aero Exhibition. We exhibited four straightforward military machines, but the French had many exhibits of civil machines which were all strengthened to take bomb rackets and to take guns. Exactly the same thing happens in Germany. There the machines swing towards a military design. It is said, "Oh, but you will have international civil aviation, and pilots would not learn to drob bombs; they would know nothing about it." But the knowledge of bomb sights and racks is in the nations of the world, and they would soon fit up machines for the dropping of bombs. Before the War we did not have any sights at all, and we had to drop bombs by hand.
  It is nonsense to say that civil machines cannot be turned into military machines very quickly. The United States delegate at Geneva said that they had 11,000 machines, and that only 74 were of any military use. I have never heard such nonsense talked since I have had anything to do with the Air Service. During the War I fitted up school machines with bombs, and we sent four aerodrome machines to Friederidhshain, and my gallant naval service men des-
  1870
  troyed one Zeppelin and part of a building there. It is idle for people to say that these machines cannot be easily converted to military use. Of course they can. It is really rather ridiculous to talk about internationalising civil aviation. The only way that you can stop bombing from the air is to do away with the whole of naval and military aircraft and all civil machines. That is impossible, for you cannot put the clock back 25 years. People say, "It is inhuman to drop bombs." There is no difference between a bomb from an aeroplane and a six-inch shell from a ship. It is not considered inhuman to fire a shell from a ship.
  Air warfare is very humane indeed. Look at what is happening in Jehol. There, instead of the war going on for a long period, the Japanese are driving the Chinese before them with aeroplanes that drop bombs, and with machine guns. They are driving the Chinese ahead of them, and they will get a better control in Jehol and Manchuria than it has had for the last 50 or 60 years. The Japanese are a. civilising force and will do a great good in the Far East. If the war had gone on for a long time without military control in the air, thousands and thousands more lives would have been lost. It is much more humane to have aircraft for keeping proper control than it is to have them for restoring peace when peace is broken. Would the internationalisation of civil aviation help us in any way with our civil machines in this country? I submit that it, would not. We lead the world in design of machines. We have the finest designers and constructors and engine builders. If they were hampered by international control it might stop development. We have got the three great records in this country, the altitude record, the long distance record and the speed record, and we do not want any interference with our civil aviation.
  If we look at the chart we see what a wonderful position we are in for developing great air routes. We have already developed one from this country to Egypt and Africa. We are developing one to Karachi and India, and it is hoped to extend it down to Australia, and thence on to New Zealand, and to have a branch up to China. But I think the Air Ministry ought to allow more money for the development of these great air

  1871
  routes. What has been done to help the development of the Atlantic air routes It is most important that this country should lead the way in developing these great air routes, which do a tremendous lot for civilisation. I was glad to hear the Under-Secretary say what good they were doing in developing the air lines and linking up the lines in Australia and Canada and Africa. These lines bring people down from up country to the centres where men and women live, and they are doing a wonderful lot of good work in opening up distant trading.
  To allow something under £500,000 for civil aviation is not enough. The Ministry ought to send for Sir Eric Geddes, the able chairman of Imperial Airways, and say to him, "You can have a million to develop these great air lines." He told us in Committee upstairs that air travel is becoming so safe that an air accident insurance policy can now be obtained at exactly the same rate as a similar policy for travel by liner or train. That is a great feather in the cap 'of Imperial Airways. I think the Under-Secretary ought to encourage Imperial Airways more than he does. I ask the Under-Secretary to urge the Prime Minister to get back to the air policy that was laid down by the Lord President of the Council when he was Prime Minister in 1923. The right hon. Gentleman then promised us a one-Power air standard, and said that our squadrons for home defence would be 52. But after 10 years' effort there are only 42 squadrons. I ask the Under-Secretary to press the Government to carry out the policy laid down by the Lord President. If we had that and more help for civil aviation, I believe that the whole country would benefit.
  8.9 p.m.
  Mr. EVERARD: I would like to say how completely I am in agreement with the words which have fallen from the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter). As he stated, we have in this country to-day the three records which really count in the air, and I am sure that the Under-Secretary will congratulate the Air Force and those who are responsible for the manufacture of the engines and machines on the possession of those three records, which are the only records worth holding in the air. I want to state reasons why in my
  1872
  opinion more money should have been expended on the Air Force for the defence of this country and of the Empire. During the last year I have been privileged to travel by air through Europe several times, and to parts of the Empire where the Air Force is in operation, and I must honestly say, without wishing in any way to exaggerate, that I have been amazed at the extension, in practically all the European countries through which I passed, of their air forces and of their hangars and of other requirements for military aviation.
  The people of this country would do well to realise that we are no longer an island Power, that the advent of the petrol engine in an aeroplane has done away altogether with our security as an island. From the point of aerial attack there is no difference whether there is 20 miles of channel between this country and the Continent, or whether there is not. There are aeroplanes capable of flying practically non-stop from Great Britain to the Cape. Of course, the whole complexion of the defence of this country has been altered by the advent of the petrol engine. For that reason I submit that there should be a redistribution of the amount of money which this country provides for defence between the three great fighting Services. I am convinced that the Air Force, being a new and young Service, does not get that credit and that authority in the defence of this country which it rightly ought to have with the Committee of Imperial Defence. At school the older boys can often get the best of the younger ones. It may not be that the older boys are better in any way than the younger.
  I suggest that it is of vital importance that. we take steps in this House to put before the Government our sincere belief that this matter should be considered with a view to an alteration of the allocation of money between the three great Fighting Services. I do not think I am over-estimating the opinion of this country, when I say that the bulk of the people are bitterly disappointed with what the League of Nations has been able to achieve. For that reason, because of what we have seen in the recent dispute between China and Japan, and because we know in our hearts that if there is aggression between one great country and another, those countries are

  1873
  going to fight whether there is a League of Nations or not, this matter must have our urgent attention. It is of vital importance that every person in this country should consider how best we may be enabled to protect ourselves and those people who look to us for protection.
  I would use the same argument as the Government used over the tariff question. If we had a one-Power standard, that is to say an Air Force equal to the Air Force of any other great Power in the world, there would be far more likelihood of seeing a reduction of air armaments in other nations than there is while we remain the fifth Power. When the Government got the tariff, they said: "We are going to use the tariff as a bargaining power." While we had no tariff other nations perpetually raised their tariffs, but as soon as we protected ourselves with a tariff other nations came along and said: "Let us come to some agreement for a reduction all round." The same argument holds good in the air. While we are content to remain the fifth Power in the air other countries with larger air forces will say: "Why need we bother? We have a stronger air force than the British Empire, and we can take no notice of the programme put forward for a reduction in air forces." But as soon as we say that we intend to have an air force equal to that of any other country we shall be able to go to Geneva and say that unless other countries reduce their air forces we must, for the protection of our country and the outlying parts of the Empire, build an air force equal to those of other countries. The result, in my opinion, would be a general reduction of air forces throughout the world. It is a good argument and certainly more likely to carry out a reduction in air forces than anything the Government have put forward.
  One word on the subject of civil aviation. It is quite clear that if you are going to reduce seriously the small number of fighting aircraft of the countries of the world the large air liners will be of great importance. It is exactly the same thing as when you reduce the forces of a country, as in the case of, Germany you see enormous numbers of so-called police on duty, and, if you do away with the ships of a navy, you see a merchant service able to take their place. So it is with the air force. But
  1874
  it has a peculiar difficulty for us. If you examine the numbers of large liners of the larger countries we have 33,
  Germany 186, and France 270. If we deplete our fighting aircraft seriously we are going to hand over air power in the proportion of those figures. Moreover, the British Empire is world wide, and some of our liners may be in one part of the world and some in another. All the great European countries have their air services to a large extent in their own country. France, Germany and Italy would always command a larger number of air liners than it would ever be possible for Great Britain to command at any one time, and, therefore, as far as the British Empire is concerned, it is more than ever important that we should not agree to any proposal which even if it gave us equality, would mean that our units because they were distributed over the whole world would be unable to mobilise in a short time while other countries would have the whole of their resources available for an immediate attack upon this country.
  When I was in Transjordan and visit-Mg the Air Force there, I was struck with the precautions which are taken, so far as the Air Force is concerned, for punitive expeditions against rebelling tribes. Reference has already been made to the enormous saving in expense which the Air Force in these districts has been able to make, but I put this point of view to the House. Very seldom, indeed not at all during the last year, has bombing taken place for punitive purposes. Pamphlets are dropped in every case, and very often a loud speaker is used to give warning to the tribesmen that if they do not behave themselves aircraft will take action against them, and when action is taken it is only by means of a machine gun, or two machine guns, mounted on aeroplanes to scatter the rebels who are creating the disturbance. May I say this to the Under-Secretary, that some of his armoured cars in Transjordan, which I understand have been through many campaigns, including the Russian campaign, were getting a little shabby and might possibly be replaced by some of a newer type.
  In regard to the civil side of aviation the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) asked some questions about Imperial Airways. He should know, as I think the House generally

  1875
  knows, that we pay less than almost any other country in subsidies to civil air lines, and anyone who has travelled in one of the new Hannibal type of Handley-Page aeroplanes which are used by Imperial Airways will agree that there is nothing comparable with them in the world for comfort, silence, keeping time and for general efficiency. Whatever money we may spend, and it is a large sum, £600,000, on the development of these air routes is money well spent, and it is now beginning to give a reward. When I was in Cairo the officials of Imperial Airways told me that they are now carrying over twice the number of passengers they carried in the corresponding period a year before.
  Let me put one or two questions with regard to the weather reports. I cannot agree that the meteorological side of the Air Ministry is not good. I think the weather reports are good and easily obtainable, but there is one question I should like to ask from the point of view of civilian flying and club flying. A very valuable service is rendered from the Heston Aerodrome by the air reports which are sent out every few hours. I understand that the Air Ministry is going to provide a similar station at Manchester; there is in the present Estimates a sum of £1,000 for that purpose. Can the Under-Secretary give any assurance that the air reports at Heston will be continued. There is some question as to whether they may not have to be altered in some way, but I can assure him that from the point of view of clubs as far north as Newcastle it is of enormous advantage and saving to be able to listen-in to these reports instead of having to worry the Air Ministry.
  Now that we are having a larger type of private aeroplane to carry five or six people there ought, I think, to be some reconsideration of the methods of licensing. They are all right for men who fly themselves and by themselves. The "B" certificate is all right for a man to take one or two people in an ordinary small light aeroplane, but when we get to the larger machines I think there should be some other method of licensing. There are a great many people with "B" licences, some of whom could not easily find their way across country and would not be altogether safe, in my opinion, in charge of a large type
  1876
  machine carrying six or seven people. Yet in fact there is nothing to-day, except the regulations of the Imperial Airways themselves to prevent a "B" licence bolder from flying the Hannibal machine to-morrow morning. I believe that apart from those regulations the "B" licence pilot is in a position to undertake to fly almost any type of machine.
  It is, I think, generally known that in the case of a great many countries abroad, flying permits are required. It is not a bad system. Anybody who wishes to travel abroad by air and to pass over those countries knows that he has to get a permit and the permits are not difficult to obtain. But I would draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the position of Turkey in this respect. In Turkey a permit is required, but they will not give you a permit in writing. In the case of other foreign countries permits are given, either by the Consulate in London, or by some other office, in writing and on an official form. In my own case I was travelling across Turkey, and, although I had a permit from the Air Ministry to fly there, when I landed at Konya I was told that no permit had been received for my machine. Had I been able then to show something in writing to the effect that I had the privilege of flying over Turkey I should not have been held up in that not very beautiful place for over three hours.
  I would also like to ask my right hon. Friend to take steps through the Colonial Office to see what is being done to assist private flying in Palestine and Egypt. Apparently Palestine is to be regarded as the only really rich country in the world at present. I read a wonderful descriptive magazine about Palestine the other day showing how the budget of that country was balanced and how it was the only prosperous part of the world to-day. If that be so, I am sure my hon. Friend will use his influence to see that at least they provide one or two landing grounds for aeroplanes. It is absurd that if any civilian wishes to go to Jerusalem by aeroplane he has to land at the Air Force station 30 miles away from Jerusalem. There is a, smaller Air Force landing ground nearer, but there is a site where a municipal or private landing ground could be made, and in my opinion such a scheme could be pushed on if the Air Ministry took up the matter.

  1877
  In former years I have raised the question of National Flying Services and have always urged upon the hon. Gentleman the desirability of looking into the arrangements between the Government and National Flying Services. It has not been possible to carry out those arrangements owing to lack of funds, and it will be seen that the subsidy figure does not occur in these Estimates. Personally, I think that is a pity, and I hope that steps will be taken whereby the clubs affiliated to National Flying Services may be able to get this subsidy for training people in their own areas. It would be a great disaster if, in some of the big centres of this country, where National Flying Services have been operating, these clubs should cease to exist. I hope the Air Ministry will be able to make some other arrangements, possibly of a local nature, to enable these clubs to continue.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I hope the hon. Member will not anticipate the Amendment which is to be moved.
  Mr. EVERARD: I am obliged to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker for reminding me of that fact, and I do not wish to pursue that subject further. I can assure my bon. Friend the Under-Secretary that I join with other hon. Members who have spoken in offering him congratulations on the excellent way in which he has presented these Estimates.
  8.30 p.m.
  Captain CUNNINGHAM - REID: I listened with the greatest interest to the lucid and comprehensive statement which we had from my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary on the introduction of these Estimates but as he progressed I thought I noticed a slight note of restraint. I somehow felt that there were times when he would have liked to have said more to the House, but that in view of his position it might be unwise to do so. Perhaps he would have liked to have said to the House that in the consideration of the total money voted by this House towards the defences, the Air Force is invariably treated as the Cinderella of the Fighting Services. For the few minutes that I intend to occupy the time of the House I should like to attempt to show that this treatment ludicrously resembles the attitude towards gunpowder that at one time was adopted by those people who considered themselves handy with the bow and arrow. The value of the Air
  1878
  Force in policing difficult countries and, for that matter, seas and the relative economy of air units as compared with other units is already too well-known by hon. Members to need any elaboration.
  It is also well known, indeed it has practically become a platitude, that the war of the future will be in the air. Though it is a platitude it is none the less true, and at any rate wars of the future will be settled in the air. My hon. and gallant Friend who spoke a short time ago drew attention to the interesting situation that arose not long ago in Manchuria. I think that example went to show that the aeroplane has come into its own as a war weapon. I, with many others, was surprised at the amazingly rapid advance made by the Japanese only the other day, and I was interested to note that the Japanese themselves attribute their success on that occasion to the efficiency of their air arm and the demoralising effect which it had upon the enemy.
  Only the other day I came across some interesting German statistics concerning the last War. I notice that they claimed to have dropped on this country during the War 300 tons of bombs, and no doubt they are in a position to know. I ask the House to consider the enormous strides that have been made in aviation since that time, the technical advance of both machines and engines, the far greater range which the modern aeroplane possesses, and the large increase in the number of machines that are to be found on the Continent; and I think the House will agree that if the Germans were able to drop 300 tons of bombs on this country during the War, such a figure, in the event of any future aerial attack, will prove to be absurdly small. I should not be surprised if that number of bombs could be dropped on the country in 12 hours. This is a fact which is not often disputed, but it annoys me considerably when I hear responsible people blindly telling us that such a contingency would be circumvented because of future disarmament.
  There is a great deal of loose talk about Disarmament. I hope that I desire universal disarmament as passionately as any hon. Member, but, on the other hand, I feel very strongly that to make a fetish of words will not help the situation. There has been recently

  1879
  a great deal of juggling with the word "unilateral," and the juggling theorists are now throwing up what they term "a convincing lead." We have heard a great deal about a convincing lead. If that lead meant that we were going to see to it that we did not poke our noses into the business of other countries, it would be all to the good, but that is not what they indicate. When they glibly talk about a convincing lead, they mean this nation has to continue to give convincing leads in Disarmament to other nations. Why in Heaven's name should we 7 Who cares whether we do, anyhow? Certainly not Germany, and certainly not France, and I presume that these are the two nations on which we have our eye when we talk about giving a convincing lead and an example. Neither of these two countries is in the least frightened of us. They know that the one thing that this country does not desire is war. They know that perhaps this is the only country in the world that could gain no advantage whatever from war. The only country that they are frightened of is each other.
  Consequently, I believe that if we were to continue our convincing lead to its logical conclusion and this nation were to disarm itself to the very last man, ship and aeroplane, it would not have the slightest effect upon the arms policy of either France or Germany. On second thoughts, I declare that in all probability those two countries would resent any further disarmament on our part, for they are looking to us for security in any time of trouble. Consequently, I suggest that we finish once and for all with all this humbug and that we leave behind us these Socialist-cum-Liberal day-dreams and that we get down to realities that are more in keeping with the circumstances. Further than that, let us face the fact—and I suggest that hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite should face the facts also—that there is no hope for a long time to come of sufficient international disarmament to prevent war. I have always been led to understand that the main idea of Disarmament is to prevent war, though recently one has wondered whether that is so. But things being as they are, what would encourage a European war in future more than anything else would be a vulnerable and impotent Great Britain, when we should
  1880
  no longer have to be reckoned with. Though it is a serious statement to make in the House, I am sure that these convincing leads will sooner or later lead to war. The net result has been that our land is now vulnerable from that attack which we fear most.
  In what I am about to say, I speak with some slight practical experience, having taken part in one or two raids myself. It is to-day no fairy tale that this city of London could within 20 minutes be reduced to a smouldering collection of ruins over which would hang a cloud of poisonous vapours. Here 1 part company with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wallasey (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon) who said that such a contingency was unlikely. I would rather join issue with the Lord President of the Council, who, in his eloquent remarks some time ago, suggested that what I have just said was certainly a possibility. In substantiation of what I have said, I would ask the House to consider the number of aeroplanes that are to be found on the Continent to-day and the number that existed just before or during the War and note the enormous increase. I suggest that we should next contemplate how every one of those machines, civil and otherwise, down to. the smallest single-seater monoplane, can be converted into a bomber in a very few hours. Then I would ask hon. Members to compare the unstrategic position of our capital from the geographical point of view and that of aerial attack, and compare its position on our coast with the central and ungetatable position of large European capitals such as Paris, Berlin and Rome. It will then be seen, taking into consideration the enormous. increase in machines since the War and the unstrategic position in which we find ourselves in this country, especially so-far as the capital is concerned, that if a hostile fleet of bombers were allowed unmolested and in sufficient numbers to bomb this city, the war would be over in no time and we should be lost.
  I would point out that we are in a peculiar position. London is the main artery, indeed the only artery, to the whole of this country. All our communications, all our mobilisation orders, go, out from London, and if a colossal fleet of bombers came over London and disorganised it completely what earthly use-

  1881
  would our Army be then? Modern conditions of warfare make an army in England, at any rate for defence purposes, completely useless to-day, and that being so I suggest that it may be that there is there the germ of an idea for effecting immense economies in the future. I would suggest that if such a saving were effected, part of those economies could be used, with very great advantage to the safety of the nation, in increasing our air arm as a defence against the catastrophies which I have attempted to envisage. My last word is this. Is it not possible for us to eradicate our inherent bigotry on this particular subject? Could we not, for a change, move with the times and turn more completely to our Air Force, both for security and for economy, at home and abroad?
  8.47 p.m.
  Mr. SIMMONDS: I think the most forceful, the most eloquent and, if I may respectfully say so, the most inspiring speech to which I have listened in this House fell from the lips of my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council when he spoke not long ago upon the horrors of air warfare. In the course of that magnificent speech he placed on the shoulders of old and young alike certain responsibilities. In the light of what has been, occurring at Geneva in the last few weeks I think it is germane for one of the younger generation to voice the abysmal disappointment we feel at the phantasy of make-believe in which all the delegations, our own included, have wallowed at the Disarmament Conference. I turn to the "Times," which reports my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for Air as saying:
  "In the, view of my delegation any such scheme"—
  That is, a scheme for control and disarmament generally—
  "must satisfy at least the following conditions. In the first place, it must be so framed as effectively to prevent all possibility of the resources of Civil Aviation being used for military purposes in the event of an outbreak of hostilities."
  I would submit in all sincerity that that is a frankly futile hypothesis. There are two definite propositions with which I think nobody will for one moment disagree. The first is, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) has said, that if
  1882
  an aeroplane can fly it can bomb. The second point to which I would draw my right hon. Friend's attention, is that however perfect the control of civil aviation may be prior to a declaration of hostilities it becomes worse than futile as soon as hostilities break out. If we bear those two premises in mind it seems that one point alone can emerge when discussing air armament, and that is that if the nations are willing to forego bombing from the air then all our difficulties of the control of military and civil aviation are wiped out, but if that is not possible it is very difficult indeed, unless one is going to fall back on this hopeless phantasy, which can lead us nowhere, to see that these discussions can usefully proceed any further.
  I would like to turn from the pseudo-military side to the purely civil side. If we offered the Air Estimates to any experienced foreigner who happened to be in this country and asked him to express some views upon them I feel certain that one point he would make would be this: How comes it about that in a volume devoted almost exclusively to naval and military aviation there is sandwiched in between the two a scant reference to Civil Aviation 7 That, unfortunately, is a story which for this country, and, indeed, for the Empire, is having very bitter consequences. Civil air transport can be divided into five categories. First we have the clubs, which will be discussed later, then we have private clubs, taxi services, inland air services and external services.
  Possibly the House will forgive me if I say that in my observations here I am endeavouring to speak with the information which I have culled over the last 10 years first as a member of the Airworthiness Department of the Air Ministry and latterly as an aircraft manufacturer, and therefore that the feelings which I express have been borne in on me in the day-to-day routine of the aircraft world. Clubs and external air lines are the two subdivisions which have been handed over by the Air Ministry lock, stock and barrel to somebody else, and those are the two sides of civil air transport which have flourished. I was sorry to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Durham (Mr. McKeag) who spoke from the Liberal benches, casting some aspersions on Imperial Airways, because,

  1883
  speaking with some little knowledge both as an engineer and as a frequent passenger on Imperial Airways Services, I can find nothing but praise for the magnificent organisation which that company has built up.
  The House may possibly be interested to know that in the course of a flight from Paris to England about a fortnight ago one of my fellow passengers who got into conversation with me told me that he was the new Minister for one of the South American Republics. He had just come over from America to Cherbourg by one of the express Atlantic liners and had then gone on to Paris, but although he had not ever flown before the reputation of Imperial Airways was so great in South America that he determined to finish his journey to England by proceeding from Paris to London by our own British air line. I can think of no higher tribute that that a gentleman of such eminence should have his first flight when taking up that important diplomatic position.
  Perhaps I might interpose an anecdote which will be of use to those who, possibly, are timid of taking to the air. In the course of a journey which I had to make late last year by Imperial Airways a veritable gale was blowing on the ground. Had I needed to proceed by the antiquated and obsolescent method of transport from Folk stone to Boulogne that day, the report in the "Times" newspaper would have filled me with dismay. What did we do? We took off from Corydon and immediately climbed to a height of a mile and a-half, 8,000 feet, and there we proceeded with absolute peace and calm, and I was able, addressing the soup that was served to me in the course of the excellent luncheon, to observe: "Surely no soup served to me in a railway restaurant-car was ever so peaceful as thou." That is typical of the immense efficiency of that organisation. I am satisfied that, should my hon. Friend the Member for Durham have any real grievance, it would immediately be investigated by the management of the company.
  Let me turn from the two happier sides, those that are free from Air Ministry control, in its day-to-day application, to those less fortunate aspects, the air-taxi
  1884
  service, the inland services, and private flying. These three aspects of flying are suffering from the intolerably rigid interference of Air Ministry regulations and inspectors. We so frequently hear that internal civil flying is unnecessary in this country, that the climate is not quite suitable, that the size of the country does not call for it, or that the train service is so excellent. All these are poor excuses made in an endeavour to cover up our own lack of push fullness in the operation of a new development. The other day I was in a very important center on the North-East Coast, and I required to get to Preston, an important center on the North-West Coast. The best train that I could get to cover the distance which, as the crow flies, is about 70 miles, took no less than six hours, and yet we say that an air-taxi service, which would have got me there in 45 minutes, is not worth while.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: The hon. Member was lucky to get there so soon.
  Mr. SIMMONDS: Very likely I was lucky, but I am giving the very best time in which you could do that journey. I dare say that you could take twice as long, if you did not exercise good care. We have this harsh, rigid attitude of interference in civil aviation from the Air Ministry. One may fairly ask what is the civil aviation department of the Air Ministry? Having investigated that question, anybody would come to the conclusion that the department is nothing more nor less than a grandiose filing department, situated hard by in Whitehall at a point where the red tape is thickest, simply purveying the decisions of the military departments, so far as their wishes for civil aviation are. concerned. Let me give a slight example. If I wanted an aircraft investigated as to its strength, I would have to hand it to the military establishment at Far borough. If I want it tested, I would have to send it to a squadron at Martlesham Heath. If I had to discuss a matter of inspection, I would go to yet another military department at Alexandra House in Kingsway.
  All these departments deal with what is going to be the lifeblood of our Empire. Not only will the military side of the Air Ministry refuse to allow the civil aviation department to have its own view, but it even prevents that department from co-

  1885
  ordinating the various military views as they are collected. For this purpose there has been set up in the Air Ministry a special section, R.D.A.C., whose job it is to co-ordinate all the restrictions that can be thought of, and to press them upon the wretched civil aircraft manufacturer. One of the most important duties of that department is to have scouts perpetually traveling over the whole of Europe, finding out any new repressive idea that different countries may have, in regard to civil aviation.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Surely, never.
  Mr. SIMMONDS: Indeed, I can tell the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) that on the last two occasions in the last four months that I have flown from this country to the Continent, curiously enough, an officer from that department, going to find some new regulation, happened to be a passenger on the machine.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Was that on the road to America, and what did the hon. Member carry in the aero plane?
  Mr. SIMMONDS: No, this was when flying normally from this country to the Continent. There are plenty of regulations that we have not yet adopted, and I hope that we shall never adopt the one suggested by the hon. Member. Let us look at the matter from the point of view of the motor industry. There is no question that, in a few years time, unless it is completely strangled by the Air Ministry, civil aviation will develop into as important an asset in our national life as the motor industry. Suppose Sir Herbert Austin had to send his next 12-horse-power model down to Allworth Cove to the Tank Section for it to go through a manoeuvring test; suppose he had to send the chassis to Woolwich Arsenal to have it investigated as to strength, the engine to this establishment and the carburetor to that. The whole thing would appear so farcical that it would not be tolerated for a moment. Why then do we tolerate this position in civil aviation? Simply because civil aviation started from small beginnings at the end of the War, when it was not necessary to set up a separate department. Now civil aviation has grown, and it is absolutely essential that the Air Ministry should realize the changed
  1886
  position. With the repressive attitude, we have unfortunately the consequence that one might expect, and that is, that it is ignored. Very frequently one gets more at the truth if one notices a little slip than if one listens to statements of high policy from a Minister. On the 6th July last, I asked the Under-Secretary of State:
  " The number of British aircraft that have been set on fire since 1918 by night landing flares carried on the aircraft; and the number of deaths resulting there from."
  My right hon. Friend replied as follows:
  " There has been no recent fatal accident of this kind."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th July, 1932; cols. 425-6; Vol. 268.]
  The "Aero plane" newspaper, dealing with this matter, made the apposite remark:
  "What about the fatal accident at Jack, when two passengers were killed."
  That, however, was only a civil aircraft. When the Air Ministry refer to British aircraft, they think solely of service aircraft, quite rightly, and when my right hon. Friend was looking up the various accidents that had occurred, it did not strike him at all that "British aircraft" included British civil aircraft.
  It is a very keen point throughout the aircraft industry that we are not, on the civil side, getting fair and reasonable treatment from this preponderating military organization. One might fairly ask, is this repressive attitude a definite policy on the part of the Air Ministry, or is it simply the enthusiasm of some junior officials? Unfortunately, we know the answer, because some couple of years ago a committee was set up, on which some of the most able members of the senior Air Ministry staff served, and also some of the most eminent men in the industry, and, as a result of the deliberations of that committee, it was unanimously decided that a certain lightening of the restrictions on civil aircraft should immediately take place. But, as soon as the military mind saw that it was to lose some of its power over civil aviation, the whole report was jettisoned, and today we have a truncated committee which is scarcely permitted to say yea or nay. Therefore, I would, without any exaggeration, say to my right hon. Friend, and to all hon. Members, that the British aircraft industry is thoroughly roused about the manner in which it has been

  1887
  treated on the civil side. Indeed, the matter was so much talked of in air circles that the Royal Aeronautical Society, the most important aeronautical scientific body in the world, called a special meeting, at which views were very freely stated on this subject.
  It is indeed time when the Air Ministry should review its attitude on this important matter. We have had in the last few weeks a Bill—I believe that many right hon. and hon. Members think it is a miserable Bill—for the co-ordination of London transport; but, if London transport needs co-ordinating, no less does the whole attitude towards transport throughout the country. If a Ministry of Defense
  is necessary for all the defense services, so, surely, is a Ministry of Transport which would cover land, sea and sky. I realise that we cannot get that overnight,but, until we can arrive at that hopeful—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I must remind the hon. Member that he is now touching on matters which would require legislation.
  Mr. SIMMONDS: I defer to your Ruling. For the moment the Air Ministry could, I suggest, be very helpful if it would take these three steps: In the first place, we should have somebody in authority dealing solely with civil aviation— an Under-Secretary, it may be, but someone who would be thinking out these problems, giving some guidance, and putting some drive into the administration of civil aviation. In the second place, it is essential that the Air Ministry should hand over its present powers over civil aircraft in the lesser categories—I am not here referring to the big air liners —to some body such as Lloyds, or some other organization of that kind, who have certain truncated powers at the moment. I am not here referring to type aircraft, but all subsequent aircraft, after the first type machine has been approved by the Air Ministry, should be taken entirely out of the ken of the Air Ministry organization. In order that that should be effective, we should have to have third-party insurance, which would mean that Lloyds or the underwriters meeting together in some corporation would be able to have their hands on the whole of British civil aviation.
  1888
  Although I have tried to voice, somewhat ineffectively I am afraid, the fears of the British aircraft industry on this subject of the attitude of the Air Ministry to civil aviation, yet we are not in any way dismayed. Progress has been made in certain directions, and we trust that the co-operation, late though it be, of the Air Ministry may contribute to this immense development, which can not only knit together the different parts of the Empire, but can also, by providing freer communication between one foreign country and another, prevent misunderstandings and enable us to get more together mentally. If my right hon. Friend, during the remaining years that he is at the Air Ministry— and may they be many— would divert some of the energy and some of the constructive mental effort that he has given to the service side into the civil side of flying, both the country and, not least, this House, would indeed be grateful.
  9.10 p.m.
  Sir ALFRED BEIT: In the first place, may I say I regret very much that, owing to a long-standing engagement in my constituency, I was unable to be in my place when the Under-Secretary introduced the Estimates this afternoon? Consequently, if I should express any fears which he has already allayed, or should ask for any assurances which he has already given, I hope he will treat me with indulgence. I propose very briefly to address myself to certain aspects of civil aviation. The first is one of which I have personal knowledge, namely, the African service operated by Imperial Airways. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chippenham (Captain Cazalet) and myself were the first Members of this House to use that service, and, indeed, we were the first individuals who paid for passages in the ordinary way. That was through the heart of tropical Africa at the height of the rainy season, and we were both enormously impressed by the excellence of the aircraft, the comfort, the adequacy of the ground organization, and the skill of the pilots. That trip was taken only a month after the rather lamentable stoppage due to the violence of the weather which caused the first planes to become befogged and the pilots got lost. In spite of that bad beginning, it is gratifying to learn, therefore, that in 1932 less than 3 per cent. of the services

  1889
  of Imperial Airways were cancelled owing to bad weather.
  Since then there has been a vast improvement in the service all round. There are bigger and better aerodromes, and more of them. In the very rainy districts the aerodromes are better drained and better surfaced. There are better meteorological arrangements, and more wireless direction finding stations. The most noteworthy improvements have been made in Rhodesia, but it is to be hoped that Kenya and Tanganyika will shortly follow suit. I understand that a general meteorological survey is planned for the whole of tropical Africa from the Sudan to Southern Rhodesia, and I very much hope that the Air Ministry will give, in collaboration with the East African Governments, such support as they can to this scheme, which I believe to be of paramount importance to aviation in these tropical districts.
  A certain amount has been said on the cost of the subsidies. I think the general feeling of the House has been that the subsidy is very modest in extent. That is certainly my feeling. It is not much —£490,000—compared for instance with 217,000,000 francs in France in 1921, say, £2,500,000, or with 23,000,000 marks, £1,500,000, in Germany. In the United States the postal subsidy for 1932 was 20,000,000 dollars for inland services and 7,000,000 dollars for foreign. It is said that only a quarter of that sum ever comes back to the Exchequer in the form of revenue, so that three-quarters of it may be considered subsidy. This is rather in conflict with the statement made by a number of American air lines that they are operating entirely without subsidy and yet at a profit. The subsidy has, I think, enabled our services to be so much improved that it is really possible now to contemplate its ultimate abolition. Its efficiency may be said to have sounded its own death-knell. Lack of accidents brings more passengers and Imperial Airways are now insured by Lloyds at the same rate as surface transport. I would urge greater generosity on the part of the Post Office in the matter of the airmail contracts. I am afraid the Post Office is inclined to snuff out at its start this infant service by demanding a profit, and not to foster it so that in course of time the profits may accrue naturally. Cheaper newspaper rates, cer-
  1890
  tainly in the African service, are highly necessary. It costs 7s. 6d. to send a copy of the "Times" to Central Africa by air. The only concession that has been made so far is in the rate for post cards.
  We supply fuel to commercial machines, both our own and foreign, without duty when they are for overseas destinations. This concession is not reciprocated by Germany and, above all, by Iraq. I feel that in this matter there should be reciprocity all round and the same freedom should be accorded to commercial air lines as is accorded to merchant ships of all nations, which are able to purchase their fuel free of duty.
  This leads me to the general question of the freedom of the air. I fail to see why innocent freedom of passage cannot be given to nationally owned aircraft, just as nationally owned merchant ships have freedom of passage outside territorial waters and freedom of passage through territorial waters to any port of their choice. I fail to see why any distinction of nationality should be made in this respect and, in the view of many authorities, the Air Convention should be amended— it would not require legislation— in such a way that complete freedom of passage should only be refused on reasonable and, above all, on stated grounds. There are three lesser, but nevertheless important aspects arising out of the subject of innocent freedom of passage. The first is the postulate which I make, that monopolies should not be granted for flying over territories. To give a small example, it is impossible at present to organize an air mail service between Southern Rhodesia and Portuguese East Africa, which is the natural outlet of that Dominion to the sea, because the Portuguese colonies have given a monopoly to France to organise air mails and commercial flying services.
  We were unable to continue our services along the Persian side of the Gulf because the Persians wished us to establish an aerial corridor through the center of their country, which we considered impracticable. The result has been that we have changed to the Arabian side of the Persian Gulf. The change over is considered satisfactory, and there is no desire to revert to the original route, but the principle arises that, although Persia is a signatory of

  1891
  the Air Convention, by her attitude she caused us to abandon our former route, whereas France and Holland are to this day maintaining regular air services to the East which are following the old Persian route.
  Finally, I should like to call attention to Italy's chameleon-like changes in regulations. First of all, she does not allow us to enter her territory with our aircraft coming from France, although at the time she laid down that regulation French aero planes were themselves entering Italy from France. She then forbade us to use the Genoa, Naples, Corfu route across Italy and informed us that the only route we could use for our eastern services would be Milan, Brinish, a service which in winter is impracticable because of the bad weather conditions which generally prevail around Milan. We have given Italy rights to fly over Cyprus and Malta, and we have given them our good will to assist them, in so far as we can, to get similar privileges in Egypt and the Sudan. We have given Italy about as much as we can give them, and yet it seems to me that we have not had from them any fair quid pro quo. The right that we have to fly from Brinish or Milan does not seem to me a fair measure of return for what we have given to Italy. The machinery for the modification of the Air Convention exists. I hope it will be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to bring his influence, and that of his Department, to bear upon the next meeting of the International Commission for Air Navigation in order that some of the irregularities and irritating restrictions may be rescinded and that we may arrive at what I am sure is the spirit of the Air Convention, innocent freedom of passage in time of peace for all irrespective of nationality.
  9.25 p.m.
  Mr. LOVAT-FRASER: I should be glad if the Minister would reply to two questions. Last year I raised the question of the noise caused by aeroplanes. This year I wish again to ask him what progress he has made in eliminating noise. Noise may not be affecting people inside the machines, but it is affecting people on the surface of the earth below. I have been told by experts that, noisy as the aero plane may be now, they be-
  1892
  lieve they may be made so silent as to produce no sense of a noise. I was reading the other day a book by a former Duke of Argyll in which he says that when the first steamer, the "Comet," was put on the Clyde by Henry Bell and made its way through the water, the noise was so intolerable that nobody on the boat could be heard. Is there any prospect of a similar transformation in regard to aeroplanes? The other question I want to ask is with regard to something that gives trouble in flying, namely, the formation of ice on the wings and fuselages of aeroplanes. What success has the Minister had in dealing with ice? With those two questions, I make way for the Minister.
  9.26 p.m.
  Sir P. SASSOON: I think the House will agree that we have had a most valuable and instructive Debate and one which reveals once again the keen, vital and well-informed interest which hon. Members take in all the varied aspects of Service and civil flying. We have listened to many eloquent speeches. We have heard a good many constructive suggestions and not too much destructive criticism, and I myself have been asked a few questions which I shall hope to try to answer to the best of my ability. As was to be expected, disarmament bulked very large in the Debate. It is a useful thing that it should be ventilated here in all its aspects but, as I said at the beginning of my speech, as long as these proposals and discussions are sub judice in Geneva, it is impossible for me to say anything which might prejudice them.
  The hon. Member who followed me this afternoon, the Member for Govan (Mr. N. MacLean) raised a number of points, to some of which I will give an answer now, although I am sorry he is not here. He may, perhaps, read them in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow. They were most of them rather small points, as a matter of fact. He asked me about the number of marine aircraft. There is provision for 28 craft used by the Service for a variety of purposes. Then he asked a question about the promotion of men in the Service, and whether it was possible for men to go the whole way up the ladder. It is very possible. In fact, the whole basis of promotion in the Air Force is very broad and democratic. Twenty-five per cent. of the permanent

  1893
  commissions are given to men promoted from the ranks. The hon. Member next asked me about the pay of officers and whether they could live on their pay. I should certainly say they can. Every effort is made to scrutinise the cost of messing in the different units and stations to see that officers are not charged more than they can afford. As regards the skeleton staff at Cardington, there is, of course, a small staff there collecting information, but it is only holding a watching brief, and we have absolutely no commitments of any sort in the nature of proposals for building any future airships.
  We had the pleasure of listening to an extremely delightful and well-informed maiden speech from the hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Hanley), and there was nothing in it with which I did not agree whole-heartedly. In fact, he echoed and voiced many opinions which I should have liked to include in my speech had I had time. The all-red route to Malta and Gibraltar is one. These are things we have very much under consideration. Then there is the development of flying boats which we have always done our best to foster and which will be, of course, immensely valuable in that direction. I believe the longest flight which one would have to take in connection with Empire communications would be England to Gibraltar, and if a flying boat would do that particular hop it would be immensely valuable. One of the things about which I agreed with the hon. Member was the unfortunate appellation for the particular weapon which the aero plane possesses. The word "bombs" has a much more disagreeable sound than "shells," and it has been the cause and originator of a great deal of confused thought on this particular problem.
  My Noble Friend the hon. Member for Central Bristol (Lord Apsley) showed himself rather anxious about the short service commissions and wondered whether it would be possible to have a greater number of permanent commissions. I should like to assure him that short service commissions are essential for a service like the Royal Air Force where there is so large a proportion of officers and competition is extremely keen. The type of men now coming into the Service for short service commissions could not possibly be better. Then
  1894
  the hon. Member raised some points about co-operation with the Army. In my speech I mentioned an occasion of such co-operation, and said how much the Air Force welcomed that kind of co-operation.
  We were very fortunate to have such an extremely interesting speech from my right hon. Friend the Member for Spark-brook (Mr. Amery). He echoed many of the sentiments which I expressed in my speech. It was particularly interesting to hear these things from him, because he has a first-hand knowledge of them. When he was Secretary of State for the Colonies he was naturally immensely interested in everything which went on in those parts of the world, and he also went there on more than one occasion and saw it all from the air. It was agreeable and encouraging to hear from him how much he welcomes the beneficent and creative side of the work which the Royal Air Force does overseas in the performance and discharge of its essential military duties. I must apologies to my hon. Friend the Member for South Leeds (Mr. Whiteside) for not being in my place when he made his speech. I will read it with care and answer him later on, but I gather that some of the points he made could be made, perhaps, with better and greater effect if they were addressed to the Postmaster-General on the next occasion of the Post Office Vote.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) was kind enough to start his speech with congratulations addressed to myself, but hardly were the words out of his mouth before he watered them down with an expression of disapproval and disappointment. He accused the Secretary of State for Air and myself of what he described as letting the Army and Navy get away with the loot. The only thing I regretted was that there were two Admiralty Ministers sitting on the bench next to me one minute before, but unfortunately they went out and did not hear his remarks. If I have disappointed him he has also disappointed me. This is the first year, I think, on the occasion of the Air Debates that my hon. and gallant Friend has not mentioned the subject of Far borough. I have noticed every year that his criticisms have been getting weaker, and this year they have died out

  1895
  altogether, which makes me believe that he is entirely satisfied.
  The House listens always with the greatest interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Melton (Mr. Everard), who raised his usual points of interest. I was glad to hear the tribute which he paid to the Hannibal machines of the Imperial Airways Service, a tribute which is voiced and echoed by all who travel on that line. My hon. Friend the Member for one of the divisions of Birmingham left us in no doubt as to his views about the Air Ministry, and especially the attitude they take towards civil aviation and the development of the civil aircraft industry in general. He complained that our measures were so oppressive and so shackling that one wondered whether there was any future or hope for the industry of civil aviation in England at all. But I must say that we have the principal air records, that our Imperial Air Service is the best in the world, and we have the greatest sale of civil aircraft of any country. I know that there is a great deal in what he said, and, when I answer in that way, it is not that I want to be discourteous. I think he was drawing almost too dark a picture, but if there is anything in the suggestions that he has made which may be of any use it will be very carefully considered.
  The hon. Member for South-East St. Pancreas (Sir A. Beit) in his very interesting speech, gave us a first-hand report of his experience of the Cape route, and mentioned its great importance and the fact that we were going ahead on that route. We know how much we are indebted to the Trust which bears his name and of which he is a director and how sympathetic they are towards anything which has to do with civil flying in Africa. My hon. Friend the Member for Lich field (Mr. Lovat-Fraser) raised two points. I think that he has raised the question of noise in aeroplanes on previous occasions. We have been doing everything possible to please and to satisfy him in that connection. I do not know whether he has flown lately in the large cabin machines of Imperial Airways— it is after all, in the enclosed machine one suffers most from noise— but if he has, I am sure he will agree that the strides which we have made to
  1896
  counter this very disagreeable phenomenon have been extremely successful. Whereas one used to have to introduce a large piece of cotton wool into the ears, one can now converse quite as easily as in a motor car or train, and I only hope that he will without delay sample what I am telling him, and realise that the conditions in aeroplanes today will even satisfy his friend the Duke of Argyll. He raised another point in connection with ice. It is very troublesome to pilots flying at great altitudes to have to encounter the formation of ice on the wings and the fuselage. There again we have made very definite strides. New kinds of dope have been tried with considerable success. Dope has sometimes been made of the most curious materials such as treacle, sugar, soap, seccotine and things of that sort. I can assure my hon. Friend that considerable progress has taken place in this matter during the last year or two.

  AMATEUR FLYING.
  9.40 p.m.
  Mr. GODFREY WILSON: I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words:
  " this House is of opinion that, in order to develop civil aviation and to ensure an adequate reserve of qualified pilots for military purposes, greater assistance should be given for the encouragement of amateur flying and the formation of light aero plane clubs."
  The privilege of introducing this Amendment is due to the fortune, or perhaps I should say at this late hour, the misfortune of the Ballot. It has two important aspects, first, the development of civil aviation in relation to the growth and increasing importance of the air service in commerce, transport and in international relations, and, secondly, the provision of adequate reserves of qualified pilots who will be ready in a national emergency to act in the defense of the security of the country. It may seem that there is something inconsistent in these two aspects of the question, but there is no more inconsistency between the development of civil aviation and the importance of civil aviation from the point of view of military requirements than there is between the Maritime forces and the Navy, each of which is complementary to the other. The remarkable successes recently at-

  1897
  tained by British aviation have been referred to more than once tonight, and the great successes in that respect give convincing proof that this nation is, if not the very best, at least equal to any other nation in the world. Therefore, it is time that we took advantage of that opportunity.
  There are one or two particular things to which I wish to make reference. One is the security and safety, now a prominent feature of all aircraft. The other is the very remarkable reduction which has recently taken place in the insurance rates which apply to passenger traffic. It was only announced; I think yesterday, that insurance rates had gone down from 12s. per £1,000, per hour flying, to 1s. per £l,000, per hour flying. Surely, this is the time to do everything possible to increase and to encourage this new and growing industry. We should take advantage of the unique opportunities presented to us to foster what will be one of the most important developments in trade and international relations. It is impossible to exaggerate the far-reaching importance of what may happen with regard to the development of transport and passenger traffic in the air. Every country in the world is undoubtedly purchasing and developing aeroplanes and flying services, and with our established reputation we have an opportunity to seize the moment and by so doing may expect to increase our export trade, help to reduce unemployment, and help coal, iron, steel, shipping, engineering, railways, and many other industries.
  One point of view that I should like to urge upon the Under-Secretary is an increase in the number of our aerodromes and landing grounds. The lack of these is a serious handicap to development. There should be facilities near every large town for aeroplanes to land, and I hope the Under-Secretary will be able to assure us that attention is being paid to that matter. The immediate point that I wish to urge is that, through the encouragement given to civil aviation and light aero plane clubs, we should get an increase in the number of trained pilots. Every pilot mean more machine, more engines, more equipment, and generally that is the crux of the whole problem.
  In the Air Estimates, Vote 8, there is a sum of £ 568,000 devoted to civil avia-
  1898
  tion, of which sum £20,000 is for light aero plane clubs. That represents more that double the corresponding Vote last year, and I should like the Under-Secretary to tell us exactly how that £ 20,000 is to be used. The last report of the Air Ministry on civil aviation, published in 1932, gives a statement of the sums which other nations are spending in the development of this branch of aviation. It appears from the figures quoted that this country is spending about one-fourth of what Germany is spending, one-third of what France is spending, 'and a little more than one-half of what Italy is spending. I was unable to get any information from the figures as to how much of the money which those foreign countries are spending on civil aviation was devoted to what corresponds to our light aero plane clubs, but I think it is probable that at least it is three or four times what we are spending.
  The object of the subsidy to light aero plane clubs is to give members an opportunity to learn and to practice the art of flying, and that is done by giving subsidies and capitation grants to those members who succeed in getting one or other of two licences— license "A" for those who intend to be amateur pilots and to engage only in private flying, 'and license "B," which is a higher qualification, the professional qualification, which a pilot must have before he can take up passengers for hire or reward, or before he can engage in commercial flying. I have the figures for the last six or seven years showing the numbers who have been successful in getting "A" and "B" licenses. I will not weary the House with the figures in detail, but they gradually rose from 1927 to 1930 in the proportion of "A" and "B" licenses, but since 1930 'there has been a gradual reduction. Perhaps the Under-Secretary will tell us the reason for that reduction.
  The total number of licences held for the last three years compared with the number of privately owned aircraft shows rather notable results. For every six or seven "A" licences there is about one privately owned machine in this country. This gives ground for the fair inference that the number of pilots does bear a very distinct connection with the progress of aviation generally. In the year 1929 the experiment was tried of subsidizing seven professional clubs and the National

  1899
  Flying Services Limited. They were under contract during three years to put down 20 aerodromes and 80 landing grounds, but I understand that they were unable to fulfill their contract. I hope the Under-Secretary will be able to tell us whether these seven clubs are to be kept in existence or to be allowed to die out. I hope that some help will be given to them.
  I pass on to the military side of the question. We can only consider that in relation to the policy laid down by the Government on disarmament, and this is not the time for me to discuss that policy. It has already been dealt with very fully by hon. Members who have spoken, but I cannot help saying that our efforts in that direction have not been attended with any remarkable success. Our example has not been followed by any other country, and the time has come to put aside any attempt to persuade any other nation to follow our example. We should think only of our own security. There can be no doubt that the reductions in our armaments of all kinds, Navy, Army and Air Force, have been such as to make people who are not mere scaremongers anxious as to our national security. Until other nations are prepared to agree to the proposals which we have made, we should see to it that our own defenses are secure and that we are in a position to make our voice heard in any international trouble that may come about.
  In this respect I cannot help feeling very strongly that half measures are absolutely useless. We must either see that we have a really good force which will give us the right to be heard in any international question, or, failing that, we ought to be content with what would he merely an adequate police force. Anything in the nature of half measures would fail to satisfy anyone. They would simply provoke and encourage other people to take advantage of our position. Unless, therefore, we are prepared to rely on the goodwill of other nations, it is necessary for us to obtain an adequate Air Force, and for that purpose we must look to getting an adequate reserve of trained pilots, ready in a national emergency, with an intensive course of instruction in military aircraft, to take their places as officers in the regular Air Force.
  1900
  Times have changed. Hitherto this country has depended for its existence on sea power. That day is past. I cannot help feeling that security in the air today is of more importance to us than, or equally as important as the security of the sea has been to us in past years. When one considers the relative cost of a battleship or a battle cruiser with the cost of an aero plane the ratio is most remarkable. One can build 8,000 military aircraft at the cost of one battleship. One can build many thousands of military aircraft at the cost of one cruiser. I cannot help wondering what chance a battleship or cruiser would have if attacked by even one hundred aeroplanes. We have had a recent example of what an aero plane can do in attacking an armed naval vessel. The recent revolt on a Dutch ship was quelled by one bomb dropped from an aeroplane, and if that can happen in the Dutch Navy, it can happen anywhere else. To my mind, 100 aeroplanes attacking a single battleship or cruiser would wipe it out of existence in a very short time.
  We have heard anxiety expressed on all sides of the House in regard to the position which we occupy in this matter of air power. We are fifth among the great Powers in regard to air defense, and that is a position which has been commented on so seriously on all sides that I need not refer to it any further. I submit that, by giving assistance to aeroplane clubs, we should be enabled to build up a reserve of pilots who would be ready in a national emergency to take their places in the regular Air Force. They would be, by their previous experience, trained in flying, and in air-mindedness, and they would very quickly be able to act if an emergency should arise. I would like to suggest to the Under-Secretary of State that he should consider giving an additional subsidy to a pilot who holds an "A" license, who passes a medical examination, and who would be prepared to sign on for, say, five years to serve if the occasion arose.
  There is one other source of flying to which I should like particularly to draw attention, and that is the universities. There are already in existence two university air squadrons, one at Oxford and one at Cambridge. Those squadrons were started in 1925. They began with an establishment of only 50 members, but that has recently been increased to 75. It

  1901
  was possible to start those squadrons at the two aerodromes, Abington, near Oxford, and Duxford, near Cambridge, and, notwithstanding the somewhat pacifist resolutions to which attention has been drawn, I say that if an emergency should arise, this House and this country need have no anxiety as to what the students of Oxford and Cambridge would do. I should like to remind the House that these two squadrons are strictly civilian. Their members do not serve under any military contract not under any Air Force contract. They have to go through a medical examination, and they are selected very carefully from among a very large number, a much larger number than the establishment permits to be chosen. The instruction is given on service machines by Royal Air Force officers, who have been trained themselves at the Control Flying School.
  By means of these two squadrons the young men of Oxford and Cambridge are thoroughly trained in flying, elementary ground subjects, airmanship, air pilot, age rigging, and engines, and it is held that at the end of their course they have qualifications about equal to half what a regular pilot gets when he passes through a regular flying training school. The purpose for which the squadrons were founded were three. They were, first, in order to send into civil life qualified civil pilots who may themselves some day become private owners; secondly, to ensure a high standard of safe airmanship, given under the best instruction and under strict discipline, and by that means to raise the standard of aviation throughout the country; and, thirdly, to build up a reserve of officers for the Reserve and Auxiliary Air Force who would accept the obligation to serve for five years in the event of war.
  The combined output of the two universities is about 60 pilots per annum, and if it is assumed that the flying life of a man is about 15 years, it means that in the course of time we should, under our present establishment, have about 900 trained pilots, who, with a further intensive course of instruction, would be ready and willing to take their part as officers in the Royal Air Force. The competition to enter these two squadrons is keen, and if only the establishment could be increased, there is no doubt that we could double our output. All that is necessary for them are a few additional
  1902
  instructors and further machines for training purposes. I do not intend to keep the House any longer, as there are other hon. Members to follow who have experience of their own, which I cannot claim to possess, but from whatever point of view we look at this question, whether from the civil point of view of the development of trade and commerce, or from the military point of view in order to get an adequate reserve of trained officers, I wish to press the importance of this Amendment on the House.
  10.2 p.m.
  Captain HAROLD BALFOUR: I beg to second the Amendment.
  In the speech of the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) today he drew a picture of the position of this country as a maritime Power in the old days, and he enlarged on the possibility of this country being an air Power in the future. Quite apart from the military or service aspect of the question, I think we have in this country today a great opportunity, because in every age there has always been one development. There was the steam age, the age of the iron ship, and usually this country has led. We have now an opportunity of leading in this flying age, just as we led in the maritime and shipbuilding age. I think we have made a good start, and not the least part of our good start is the light aeroplane club movement, which is characteristically British, which was developed in this country, and which has been copied throughout most of the Continent, in other parts of the world, and in our British Dominions.
  The growth of this movement is really remarkable. I do not wish to weary the House with figures, except to give two sets as a contrast. In 1928 the flying members of our light aeroplane clubs numbered 1,520; in 1931 they numbered 3,433, or over 100 per cent. Increase. In 1928 the flying hours were 10,400; in 1931 they were 24,250, a thing that I think every Member of this House, particularly those who have light aeroplane clubs in or near their constituencies, can very well be proud. This country geographically has disadvantages as regards the development of civil aviation, when we compare ourselves with the wide-open spaces of the United States, but, true to the British tradition, we are not going to be down-

  1903
  cast by these disadvantages and we are offsetting them by the development of our own particular line of flying. The light aeroplane club movement has done two things towards offsetting those disadvantages. It has provided the majority of the all too few facilities that we enjoy for landing in England today—the landing grounds of our municipalities and our seaside resorts and other places— and, secondly, it has gone far to educate the average man and woman in this country to realise that when they see an aeroplane going over head the aeroplane is not about to fall upon their heads, but is a safe and reasonable means of transport.
  In the United States there are over 2,000 landing grounds, of which less than 100 belong to the Army and Navy. We in this country have approximately only 450, including those of the Royal Air Force, and if it had not been for the clubs the number would have been very much lower than that today. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary, when he is considering the extension of the number of subsidised flying clubs up to the maximum, will also consider the geographical position of the various clubs that make the application, in order that we can gradually ring England around with a series of landing grounds which will give the flying facilities that are essential if we are to develop our internal air communications.
  As regards educating the public, the light aeroplane club is the only possible way in which the average man can fly at a reasonable cost. It is a truly democratic movement. There is a messenger boys' flying club, and there are a Press flying club and a London omnibus men's flying club. Everyone in the House will agree that it is a truly democratic movement and worthy of support without thought of party. If the Government are satisfied that the clubs have fulfilled usefully their dual purpose of developing landing facilities and educating the public, it is the Government's duty to give them some further encouragement. I suggest that there are two ways in which the Government can give that encouragement. The first is by extending the subsidy, and the second is by freeing private flying from some of the restriction under which it at present suffers.
  1904
  The Mover of the Amendment suggested that there should be an extension of the subsidy to "A" license pilots who have passed a medical test and would give an undertaking to serve at home or abroad if called upon to serve in a national emergency. Such a stipulation as regards the granting of an extra subsidy should appeal to everyone. A national emergency might arise, and there might be the incursion of outside capitalists on a Socialist State. In that case those who were running the Government of the country would be very glad to get these men to defend the country in such a state of national emergency. I think there should be an additional subsidy for certain young men who have not means of their own but wish to fly, and who have the necessary qualifications, in the same way as there are technical scholarships. If Government money is to be granted to help the young men of this country to fly, let us see that it is evenly distributed, and that those who can pass a means test will at any rate have an opportunity of participating in the benefits of such a subsidy.
  The second way in which I think the Government could help would be to remove some of the present restrictions on private flying. I want to make it quite clear that any remarks I make do not apply to fare-carrying aeroplanes that fly for hire or reward, because the State and the Department have a duty towards the public who are being carried in public transport machines. We always used to say that an Englishman's home was his castle. The Air Ministry have upset all that now, because if I happen to own a castle I could not build an aeroplane out of my own money in my own workshop, and fly in my own ground, and perhaps kill myself in my own particular fashion, without the permission of the Secretary of State for Air. I think that that is taking Government interference rather too far and is seriously encroaching upon the liberty of the subject. One has to have one's drawings approved, the construction approved, and even the operation of the private aeroplane approved.
  Anybody can buy a motor car for a £ 5 note without any provision as to examination of its condition, and one can drive it down Piccadilly and have an accident through the breaking of the steering, and one can cause more damage than probably the average aeroplane fall-

  1905
  ing on the ground would cause; but there is no provision in the Ministry of Transport regulations for the compulsory examination of second-hand cars. In practice accidents to such cars are few and far between. So it is with aircraft. In practice if restrictions are lightened the law of supply and demand will operate, and manufacturers will not make bad aeroplanes, because they will be unable to sell them. I think that the present system is costly to the taxpayer, because the charges made to the average private owner for the looking-over inspection of his' aeroplane do not cover the total charge which these services entail. It is costly to the owner, and it is very inelastic in its operation.
  The future of private flying lies with the aeroplane which is going to be built in the future. Where today there are tens of young men who can pay £ 1,000 for an aeroplane, there are hundreds who will pay £ 250. There is being built today a new type of light aeroplane, call it the motor bicycle of the air if you like. I went to Shoreham the other day and flew one of these machines, which had a six-horse power engine. I went rather prepared to jeer at what I thought would be a useless toy, but I came away thinking that there was a great deal more in this idea than I had thought when I started on my flight. At present they fly possibly 40 miles an hour, but on a windy day a strong man on a bicycle can pass underneath. But we are getting beyond that.
  There is undoubtedly a future for these aeroplanes. At present they cannot be flown without the special permission of the Department, because they cannot reach certain operational figures for which there is a stipulation of the international convention at Geneva, neither can they be made at a reasonable price because of the heavy charges of the Government standards for military and other large aeroplanes imposed during manufacture. These aeroplanes are supposed to be dangerous to fly because you cannot get them over a certain height within a certain distance, but you can take one of them into a field of 150 yards with high trees all round and you can get in and out of that field by a corkscrew flight.
  The present restrictions are definitely inelastic. They are based on legislation which was passed when none of us knew
  1906
  what the development of flying would be. In seconding this Amendment I ask that there should be two things considered— the possibility of the extension of the subsidies to the maximum number of flying clubs, the possibility of the extension of the subsidy so as to enable more young men to fly and so make it a more democratic movement, and the setting up of a committee, not a private committee which works within the walls of the Ministry, but a committee which will have the confidence of all private owners of aircraft and of the aircraft industry and whose findings will be recognised by this House as authoritative findings—a committee to go into the question of the restrictions on the aircraft industry in making machines for private flying, and the question of compulsory third party insurance. I hope that the Amendment will have the sympathy of the whole House.
  10.15 p.m.
  Mr. PERKINS: I am opposed to the Amendment not because I disagree with the principle but because I disagree with the way in which the principle of these subsidies has been put into practice by the Air Minister. This large increase in the subsidies is unjustified, and unnecessary. I believe that the light aeroplane club movement can fly without any subsidies, without any help at all from the Government. We have been told over and over again in the past, in this House and in the country, that the fundamental reason for these subsidies was to encourage the British public to become air-minded. What exactly is this disease of air-mindedness? I should like to have a definition of this mysterious and elusive disease. It is rather like foot-and-mouth disease; no one has yet defined it. And we are asked to spend £ 20,000 of the taxpayers' money at a time when we have not money enough to pay unemployment insurance benefit, when we cannot pay the police or the Civil Service. We are asked to vote £ 20,000 in order to inoculate the general public of this country with this mysterious germ of air-mindedness.
  I claim that there is no justification whatever for these subsidies to the light aeroplane movement, in order to inoculate the public with this germ. If you want to make the general public take an interest in questions affecting the air,

  1907
  it would be far better to subsidies some form of traveling circus, such as was headed by Sir Alan Cob ham some time ago, which actually got into the industrial areas, reached the large towns, and thus came into contact with the masses of the people, whereas this light aeroplane movement only touches a fringe of the population, at the outside 3,000 people. I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Wilson) on having come out into the open with the brave and gallant statement he has put on the Paper in this Amendment, that the real and fundamental reason for these subsidies now, and in the past, was to make sure that in this country we had a substantial reserve of war pilots for war purposes. Let me congratulate him on laying the bogey of air mindedness, and upon coming into the open and telling the truth. Of course the subsidies have been provided in the past for three purposes—one, to provide reserves, two, to provide a large number of aerodromes which can be used in time of war, and, thirdly, to keep our manufacturers busy in order to have a skeleton organisation which might be increased if we were unfortunately dragged into war.
  I propose to examine the position with regard to the granting of these subsidies. Who are the people who can claim them? Who gets the subsidy? Who can get the subsidy? Any man or woman over the age of 18 years, provided they are physically fit, and provided they can get a pilot's license, can get the subsidy, or rather the club to which they are attached can get the subsidy, and the result is that you have women and men of all ages, totally unfit for any war service, getting these subsidies. If a man aged 100 likes to go to a light aeroplane club and get a pilot's license, and there is no reason why he should not do so, that club gets a subsidy from the Government, and the British taxpayer has to pay. I suggest that no man or woman should get a subsidy who is over the age of 50. He can be of no use to the country in time of war. He is over war age and to go on handing over subsidies to men, irrespective of age, is indefensible.
  I now come to the very important question of women. I know that a large number of Members of this House believe that woman's place is the home, but I
  1908
  dissociate myself from that view. I have no objection to lady pilots flying in the air. My quarrel with the present system is that to give lady pilots these public monies, in the hope that they would be of some use to the country in time of war, cannot be justified. Women pilots could not be used by us in time of war because we are tied by international agreements on the subject. There is a third type— the average pilot. The average man goes to a flying club, learns to fly and flies, perhaps, for 15 or 16 hours. He gets his license and, from that moment, the club loses all interest in him. There is no more money to be got in respect of him. They do not encourage him to go on flying and when he has done perhaps four or five hours more, he drops out altogether. It will be found, between these three categories, that 90 per cent. of the money now spent on teaching the general public to fly is sheer waste and that the country is only getting benefit to the extent of 10 or 15 per cent. of the pilots turned out under this system.
  If my hon. Friend insists that this money should continue to be paid out, I earnestly implore him to consider barring women pilots, all men pilots over the age of 50, and all pilots who have not flown at least 25 hours every year. I would like to see all these subsidies abolished. If that were done we would have a howl or a loud squeal from the clubs involved, but when one faces the facts, one realises that out of 30 clubs in. this country 14 get no subsidy at all and if 14 exist without help from my hon. Friend, it is only logical to demand that the other 16 should also exist without subsidy. If 14 can exist without subsidy surely every single flying club can do likewise. I give one simple illustration. At Reading aerodrome there are two clubs. Both have been there for four years. One of these clubs receives a subsidy or received it until last September, and the other never had a subsidy at all. They use the same aerodrome, fly the same machines, are among the same people and are in acute competition. Yet the club that receives the subsidy has gone down every year, whereas the club which has not received any subsidy has gone forward by leaps and bounds.
  I submit that it is unnecessary to give any of these clubs any subsidy from now

  1909
  onwards, and as I say, I would like to see subsidies abolished. At the same time, I support the plea so ably put forward by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Thanet (Captain Balfour) that some of the present restrictions should be removed from the light aeroplane club movement. As he has pointed out, a new kind of light aeroplane is coming forward— almost a glider, with a motor cycle engine. It costs about £ 200 or less. It has been said of these machines that "they stall not, neither do they spin." I am informed, although I have not had the luck to fly one— owing to the restrictions imposed by my hon. Friend's Department— that they are absolutely fool-proof, and that it is almost impossible to kill one's self in one of these machines. Here is a machine coming forward which I think will eventually become the motor-cycle of the air. It will provide very cheap flying for the masses of the country, and it is foolish to impose on these machines the same restrictions and the same standard of quality which are imposed on the faster machines which are capable of flying round the world. I should like to see all the irksome restrictions and the subsidies removed, and civil aviation will be very much better off.
  May I put in a plea for the private owner? I claim that from the point of view of war purposes the private owner will be of more use than any of the other types that I have mentioned. First of all, he buys the machine, and by doing that provides the aircraft industry with work. Secondly, he flies in all weathers. He does not fly only in good weather as we very often find at the light aeroplane clubs where the chief instructor does not want to risk his machines flying in doubtful weather. We find as a general rule that clubs only fly in good weather, and much the same thing is true in the Air Force. They do fly in doubtful weather but, if it is really doubtful, the officer of the aerodrome orders no flying because he does not want to risk human life. The private owner, however, if he wishes to go to his constituency or to a friend in another part of the country, will, although there is a wedge of dirty weather, very often try to get through and does get through. If you really want to find 10 pilots whom you could trust to get through in any weather, you could
  1910
  not do better than take your pick from some of the private owners. I would like to point out one rather interesting fact about private owners. If hon. Members will read the British register of aircraft, they will find that out of 921 light aeroplanes only 60 are owned by subsidised light aeroplane clubs, and 450, or nearly eight times that number, are owned by private individuals— in other words, eight to one. Surely, therefore, it is only common sense to stop encouraging by subsidies the light aeroplane club and to concentrate instead on the private owner who has already shown that he is efficient and capable of existing without any subsidy at all.
  I would like to draw the attention of the House to another side of the question. We have often been told by our war-minded pacifists that the aeroplane is essentially an instrument of war. It is perfectly true that anything that flies can drop a bomb. I am prepared to admit that, but I also claim that the aeroplane which is in private hands, although it is a possible instrument of war, is also an instrument of peace. A large number of British pilots in a rapidly increasing number go year after year across to the Continent. They go
  round Europe, jumping over barriers of one kind and another, flying over frontiers, asking friends here and there, and thoroughly enjoying themselves because of the freedom and simplicity of the life, accepting people's hospitality and getting to know and to understand the difficulties of other people and other countries.
  This flying abroad will eventually do a great deal in the interests, not of war, but of peace. British pilots last September sent out a request to all foreign private owners and asked them to come to this country for a week-end. About 50 or 60 accepted, they came here, we gave them our best, we entertained them for three or four days, and gave them an extraordinarily good time. It did not cost them a penny, and they went back thoroughly satisfied with Great Britain. These little trips up and down the Continent, and these friendly parties in all parts of the world, will do a great deal for the cause of peace. Already the countries in Europe are to the amateur pilot like the English counties are to the motor cycle fiend or to the motorist. One

  1911
  day last year I myself, coming back from Constantinople, without any effort at all, without even hurrying, had breakfast in one capital, had lunch in a second capital, had tea in a third and dined in a fourth—and I never hurried once. That is possible now and I ask hon. Members to visualise what we shall see in the future. When we can buy an aeroplane for a few hundred pounds hon. Members, instead of going to Brighton for weekends, will go off to Vienna, or to Rome or to Madrid. Will not that result in a better understanding of the troubles of other peoples and other countries; will it not tend to reduce international friction; will it not finally wipe away all the barriers and all the frontiers which at present exist? I believe it will.
  I believe that light aeroplanes, particularly the one owned by the private owner, to be one of the greatest instruments for peace in the world at the moment, and I do hope that my hon. Friend will encourage it by every means in his power. There is one respect in which the Air Ministry could encourage this development of flying. When we go abroad we often find ourselves in difficulties. For Austria and Spain it is necessary to get certain permits, to get visas, to take passports and to get carnets, and I would ask the hon. Member whether he cannot take a bold lead in saying to other countries that we will relieve their pilots of all these irksome restrictions when they visit us if they will do the same for British pilots visiting their country. All those restrictions will have to go in time, they cannot stand for ever. They will have to go in the same way as the turnpike roads or the red flag in front of the early motor vehicles have gone.
  Sir P. SASSOON: I think it will be agreed by all hon. Members that this has been a very useful and enjoyable Debate. I confess that I was surprised to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Perkins) inquiring how we could create air-mindedness, because I thought his speech, in which he described air parties, and pilots going from one country to the other and making friends everywhere, was a good example of the means of creating air-mindedness. That is what we are trying to do. The light aeroplane movement is one in which the Air Ministry has always taken the
  1912
  greatest possible interest. From the start we have done everything we possibly can, so far as finance would allow, to help that movement and foster it. In 1923–24, when there was no such thing as a light aeroplane at all, we did a very reprehensible thing in the eyes of the hon. Member, we actually went so far as to give prizes to stimulate the industry and to act as a competitive spur in the production of light aeroplanes. In the summer of 1925 we introduced the first scheme for giving financial assistance to a limited number of clubs, since the Air Ministry was desirous of bringing flying within the range of the man in the street, and clubs afforded the only means by which he could possibly learn to fly.
  I will not trouble the House with the details of successive schemes introduced since that date, but will only say that when last year we were satisfied that the existing subsidies were not sufficient we introduced one on more generous lines. The grant for each pilot trained by one of these clubs has increased as much as 150 per cent. We anticipate that during the current year these clubs will earn twice as much as they earned last year. The figure shows an increase to £ 20,000, and in times like these that is a very practical manifestation of the interest the Air Ministry takes in this movement. We hope to reduce expenditure, in order to make the money go as far as we possibly can.
  It has been suggested that we started this movement with some militaristic idea at the back of our minds. That is not so. These people get no military training. The movement has been started entirely to encourage people to make use of the new and young form of transport. Technically, we lead the world. I do not think that I need say anything more about the part that we are playing in fostering the light aeroplane movement. We have done as much as we possibly can in that direction. The hon. and gallant Member for Thanet (Captain H. Balfour), who seconded the Amendment, raised the point about the inelasticity of the restrictions that are imposed upon civil flying, and he suggested that a committee might be appointed to look into the matter. It is a most interesting suggestion, and I will certainly convey it to my Noble Friend.
  Mr. G. WILSON: In view of the statement that has been made by the Under-Secretary of State for Air, I beg to ask the leave of the House to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question, put, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  The House divided: Ayes, 249; Noes, 35.

  Division No. 81.]

  AYES.

  [10.37 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Fleming, Edward Lascelles

  Marsden, Commander Arthur

  Agnew, Lieut.-Cam. P. G.

  Ford, Sir Patrick J.

  Martin, Thomas B.

  Albery, Irving James

  Fremantle, Sir Francis

  Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Fuller, Captain A. G.

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Aske, Sir Robert William

  Gibson, Charles Granville

  Mitchell, Harold p. (Br'tt'd & Chisw'k)

  Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe

  Gillett, Sir George Masterman

  Mitcheson, G, G.

  Atkinson, Cyril

  Gledhill, Gilbert

  Moreing, Adrian C. '

  Saillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

  Glossop. C. W. H.

  Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

  Baldwin, R1. Hon. Stanley

  Gluckstein, Louis Halle

  Morrison, William Shepherd

  Balfour, Capt. Harold (1. of Thanct)

  Goldte, Noel B.

  Moss, Captain H. J.

  Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

  Goodman. Colonel Albert W.

  Mulrhead, Major A. J.

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

  Munro, Patrick

  Barrle, Sir Charles Coupar

  Greene, William P. C.

  Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Bateman, A. L.

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

  Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th.C.)

  Grlmston, R. V.

  Normand, Wllfrid Guild

  Belt, Sir Alfred L.

  Grltten, W. G. Howard

  Nunn, William

  Bevan. Stuart James (Holborn)

  Guinness. Thomas L. E. B.

  O'Connor, Terence James

  Bird. Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton)

  Guy, J. C. Morrison

  O'Donovan, Dr. William James

  Bllndeil, James

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Borodale, viscount

  Hales, Harold K.

  Palmer, Francis Noel

  Bossom, A. C.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon)

  Patrick, Colin M.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Hanbury, Cecll

  Pearson, William G.

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Hanley, Dennis A.

  Peat, Charles U.

  Bralthwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Percy, Lord Eustace

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Hartland, George A.

  Perkins, Walter R. D.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Harvey, Majors. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Petherick, M.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

  Peto. Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bllst'n)

  Brown, Ernest (Lelth)

  Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Plckford, Hon. Mary Ada

  Browne, Captain A. C.

  Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

  Pike, Cecil F.

  Buchan, John

  Heneage. Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

  Ralkes, Henry V. A. M.

  Burghley, Lord

  Hornby, Frank

  Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

  Burgln, Dr. Edward Leslie

  Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

  Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

  Burnett, John George

  Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Ramsden, Sir Eugene

  Caporn, Arthur Cecll

  Hurd, Sir Percy

  Ratcliffe, Arthur

  Carver, Major William H.

  Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

  Ray, Sir William

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth. C.)

  Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

  Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)

  Jesson, Major Thomas E.

  Reid, David D. (County Down)

  Christie, James Archibald

  Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

  Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

  Reid, William Allan (Derby)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

  Remer, John R.

  Clayton, Or, George C.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

  Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Ker, J. Campbell

  Robinson, John Roland.

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Kerr, Hamilton W.

  Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

  Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

  Conant, R. J. E.

  Lamb, Sir Joseph Ouinton

  Runge, Norah Cecil

  Cook, Thomas A.

  Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

  Russell, Richard John (Eddlsbury)

  Cooke, Douglas

  Law. Sir Alfred

  Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

  Copeland, Ida

  Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Llverp'l)

  Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

  Leckie, J. A.

  Salmon, Sir Isidore

  Craven-Ellis. William

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Salt. Edward W.

  Crooke, J, Smedley

  Lees-Jones, John

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

  Leighton. Major B. E. P.

  Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

  Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovll)

  Lewis, Oswald

  Selley, Harry R.

  Dickie, John P.

  Liddall, Walter S.

  Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

  Doran, Edward

  Lindsay, Noel Ker

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Drewe, Cedrlc

  Little, Graham-, sir Ernest

  Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

  Duckworth, George A. V.

  Llewellin, Major John J,

  Shute, Colonel J. J.

  Duggan, Hubert John

  Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

  Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

  Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

  Lloyd, Geoffrey

  Skelton, Archibald Noel

  Dunglass, Lord

  Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

  Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

  Eastwood, John Francis

  Lockwood. Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

  Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

  Somervell, Donald Bradley

  Elliston, Captain George Sampson

  MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)

  Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

  Elmley, Viscount

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

  Emrys- Evans, P. V.

  McEwen, Captain J. H. F

  Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

  Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

  McKie, John Hamilton

  Spencer, Captain Richard A.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

  Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)

  Essenhigh. Reginald Clare

  Macmillan, Maurice Harold

  Strauss, Edward A.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

  Mallalieu. Edward Lancelot

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D, R.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

  Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Sutcliffe, Harold

  Wardiaw-Milne, Sir John S.

  Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

  Templeton, William P.

  Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

  Wills, Wilfrid D.

  Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

  Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

  Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

  Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

  Wells, Sydney Richard

  Windson-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George

  Thorp, Linton Theodore

  Weymouth. Viscount

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  White, Henry Graham

  Touche, Gordon Cosmo

  Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Whyte, Jardine Bell

  Sir George Penny and Commander Southby.

  NOES.

  Adams. D. M (Poplar South)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  McGovern, John

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Maxton, James

  Batey, Joseph

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Mliner, Major James

  Buchanan, George

  Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parkinson. John Allen

  Cape,. Thomas

  Hicks, Ernest George

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  Hirst, George Henry

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Cove, William G.

  Jenkins, Sir William

  Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

  Cripps, Sir Stafford

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

  Daggar, George

  Kirk wood, David

  Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

  Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Dobbie, William

  Logan, David Gilbert

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

  Edwards, Charles

  Lunn, William

  Mr. John and Mr. G. Macdonald.

  Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

  McEntee, Valentine L.

  Supply accordingly considered in Committee.
  [Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]

  NUMBER OF ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  Motion made and Question proposed,
  " That a number of Air Forces, not exceeding 31,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom at Home and abroad, exclusive of those serving in India (other than Aden), during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934."
  10.47 p.m.
  Mr. McGOVERN: I beg to move to reduce the Vote by 30,000 men.
  We move this Amendment as a matter of principle. Each year on some occasion members of the Independent Labor party have moved a reduction in some of the armed forces of the Crown. We are not advancing this reduction because we are inspired by pacifist or non-resistance philosophy but on a Socialist and anti-Capitalist basis. I do not say that in a contemptuous way, because we have absolute respect for those who are moved from that point of view, but we do not believe in absolute pacifism, although it is an ideal to struggle for. We believe that the armed forces as used in the air are being organised and will ultimately be used for the purpose of suppressing the workers in other lands and as an ultimate competitive instrument in the struggle of rival capitalists. I have listened to almost the whole of the discussion that has taken place today and, if there was not the other tragic and brutal side of the use of this force, one could have admired the splendid oration of the Minister in presenting the Estimates, because it was
  1916
  an oratorical feat of the very first magnitude. When one heard afterwards the various tales of romanticism that came from many young men in pleading for aerial clubs and so forth, one knew that behind all this romanticism there was the inevitable tragedy and brutality lurking in the building up of a force of this? description in this country and in every country in the civilised world.
  I have followed closely the course of events in connection with every advance made in aviation, whether it was made by a Smith, a Hinckler, an Amy Johnson or any other person who was engaged in blazing the trail of what might be termed civil aviation. I have always been fired with enthusiasm at the exploits of those individuals, and if one were to confine one's feelings to that aspect and knew that the Air Force was only for the purpose of getting into touch with various parts of the world, to bring a civilising influence and to rescue people and bring succor in distress, as the Minister said, then one could, in this House and in the country, view with a tremendous amount of admiration the work in which these men are engaged. One knows, however, that ultimately this force is going to be used for the purpose of a more terrific warfare than that which took place in the late war.
  It is being advanced in this House that we must organise this Air Force for the purpose of defense, but is not that just the argument put forward by every country in the world, by their Air Ministers, and by their statesmen in various assemblies? They all say that they are organizing for the purpose of defense, for

  1917
  the defense of the food supplies of the nation, of the women and children and the lives of the common people of each country. They go on building and piling up armaments, whether it be in the Air Forces, in the Navies or Armies, for the purpose of ultimate destruction of human lives throughout the world. Is this a time to come forward and tell us that our 100 per cent. efficient Air Force is going to ensure peace in a world which to-day is struggling with a tremendous amount of nationalism, mad nationalism that has overcome the world as the result of the great struggle from 1914 to 1918? Then you tell us that this efficient force will preserve peace. We are told that we are only fifth in the list in regard to the strength of world air forces, and it is being advanced by a large number of hon. Members that we ought to take our place at the head of the fighting forces of the world with an efficient air force to be used either to destroy another enemy force or to repel an enemy force if it should attempt to invade this country.
  One knows from experience and from powers of reasoning that the League of Nations certainly cannot prevent war taking place. I say this only for the purpose of illustration. The League was created because the outcome of the world war had made the people of that period sick and tired of the very idea of war. The statesmen who created it made promises to the common people of all countries that it was a war to end war. As the outcome of that people said, "Well, prove to us that this is going to be the last war that will take place in a civilised community, and we. will believe that the men and women who gave their lives, the men who were blinded and driven insane, the men who had both arms and legs blown off in some cases and were disemboweled, those who suffered this tremendous ordeal in battle did not make that tremendous sacrifice in vain, if it has ensured the end of all war." Then the statesmen, driven from their usual device of subterfuge by the increased reasoning powers and conscience of the people, were driven to the alternative of attempting to set up an assembly representative of the various countries of the world to create the feeling that they were attempting to ensure peace, when they knew that a creation of
  1918
  that character, in a world where capitalism remained supreme, could not ensure peace in any shape or form.
  An hon. Member said in connection with this discussion, "I am neither an expert nor a disarmament crank." I would point out to the hon. Member who used that phrase that those who are experts are mostly bordering upon disarmament cranks because of the experience they have undergone in the late War. We are told that we have to establish 'and build up a force of that character for peaceful pursuits. It is impossible. Let me take a quotation from the famous speech of the Lord President of the Council which he made on 10th November last. He said:
  "I think it is well also for the man-in-the-street to realise that there is no power on earth that can protect him from being bombed. Whatever people may tell him, the bomber will always get through."
  Later on he said:
  "The only defense is in offence which means that you have to kill more women and children more quickly than the enemy if you want to save yourselves."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th November, 1932; col. 632, Vol. 270.]
  We are establishing, in the words of the Lord President of the Council, a force which will ultimately, if used in warfare, set out from this country and various points of vantage in the Empire to destroy women and children more quickly than the enemy can in order to protect what? To protect the well being of the lives of the common people? No. To protect private property. An hon. Member on the opposite side shakes his head in disgust. Let me tell him that the ordinary man-in-the-street has no quarrel with his fellow men in other parts of the world. He does not go to France, Spain, Egypt or any other part to destroy human beings because he wishes to destroy them. He does it because governments and private interests clash with those of other countries with regard to trade routes, raw materials or something of that character. Then the statesmen who have made secret pacts with other nations declare war and call upon the working class to implement the secret promises which they have made in times of peace. No man in this House can tell me that war is anything of a civilising nature. Every person who knows anything of war and has seen the victims of

  1919
  war cannot but be antagonistic to the idea of another world war, on which, I believe, we are on the eve.
  It is a lamentable thing, after 2,000 years of so-called Christianity that we should be told by all responsible people that we are on the eve of a greater blood bath than anything which has been experienced in any period of history. Why are we on the eve of war'? Is it to advance civilisation? Is it to bring security to people who are starving because of poverty and misery? Is it for any of these things that we are going out to destroy human life, to live like beasts and burrow in trenches as men did in bygone days? Is it for those purposes we are going to war? It is not for those purposes at all. Today, in a world where you cannot get security of food, clothing and shelter, we are told that we are on the eve of another world war in order to ensure greater prosperity for a small class of the community. We refuse to believe that the development of this force in aviation will ensure security for the lives of the common people. A man who is living under the means test can look with contempt on any idea of invasion from a foreign Power. What could any foreign Power do? By aviation or other armed force a foreign Power could only invade and take possession of this country. Do those on the Front Bench or any Member of this House think that an intelligent, reasonable human being who is living in poverty fears invasion and the establishment of a Kaiser or a Hitler in this country, when we are living under Hitlerism just as extreme as in any other part of the world? The working classes are not afraid of that in any shape or form.
  If a foreign Power, either by aeroplane or by any other armed force, captured this country and wanted to ensure the rights of private property, I cannot imagine a more efficient Government for robbing the poor than that we have in office at the present time. I cannot imagine them choosing any other set of men. Therefore, if by 20,000, 30,000 or 40,000 aeroplanes a foreign Power was able to establish control here, that would be nothing to be afraid of. We were told by the Lord President of the Council that to resist would mean death to tens of thousands of women and children in
  1920
  every area. Therefore the policy of non-resistance, if it is to be a choice between one capitalist section or another, would be the very policy that ought to be adopted by the working class. The idea of patriotism or of nationalism burning in the breasts of mankind to defend himself in this country by keeping the present Cabinet as against another Cabinet of the ruling class, is opposed by every reasonable-minded person in any part of the world.
  We say, quite frankly, that we are opposed to your force. I would oppose in this House, even if it meant security of employment for people on the Clyde, the building of cruisers. I would vote against the building of cruisers even if I knew that men were anxious for employment in the building of these death-dealing instruments. It has come to a fine pass when in our civilised existence, in order to get bread, we have to pray to build death-dealing instruments of warfare that will destroy human life. I say to hon. Members opposite that they have created, by a great deal of evolution, a machine that is deadly and brutal in its effects. They fear the machine that they have created. They fear that they may require to use it. No person would advance in this House as a reason for the creation of the force of aviation that it was only for civil purposes. Every person speaks of the possibility of using it in the future for war. One hon. Member, a retired Admiral, said that the aeroplane is a humane method of dealing with outbreaks. I would like to have a chance of throwing a bomb at his back as he walks out of this House, and see how he would like that humane method of dealing with people. This humane method of destroying life is something similar to what we heard during the late War, when the newspapers said that the Germans were afraid of the bayonet. Every reasonable-minded man would be afraid of the bayonet, just as every intelligent human being would be afraid of a bomb. How any person can say that a bomb is a very fine method of quelling outbreaks, I cannot understand.
  The hon. Member for East Wolver Hampton (Mr. Mander) talked about economy in the use of the bomb for the aeroplane as against sending land forces, and he said in effect, "You can kill them more speedily; it costs less per head to

  1921
  kill them by the bomb." Yes, the rationalisation of the fighting forces or death-dealing instruments. That was in effect what he said, that you could kill much more cheaply by this Liberal method than by the other methods. If that is the type of mind that we have in this House, it is no wonder that we are drifting into the state of tragedy and darkness that the world is drifting into now, when they come to this House and talk in a cool manner like that of quelling outbreaks What do they mean by quelling outbreaks? Do they mean that you send out to India bombing machines to bomb the natives of India, whose country you are invading with your bombing machines and in whose country you are preventing the natives from setting up a decent form of government to rule themselves? Yes, my intelligent Friends, I know it is the idea that you are the only civilised, reasonable people in the world, that it is your function to bring civilisation to the poor natives of every part of the world. By God, you have brought this civilisation to a fine state in this country when you have reduced millions of human beings to a point where they wish they were dead rather than alive in your civilised system of society. You talk of intelligence. It is simply the idea of the bully who believes he is intelligent when he is using the whip on the poor native boy.
  It is thought to be all right to talk in that manner about using bombs on Indians and coolies. They were given life equally with you, and God intended that they should have the same rights and feelings as you, the right to a share in the earth, but you have no right to comer all the materials of the earth and then to attempt to preserve them by force to the exclusion of every other section of the community. Then you grumble of other people trying to play the same game as you have played. You have all talked of Hitler and Mussolini, but your dictatorship is more silent and cunning than Hitlerism in Germany or Mussolini in Italy. That is all that you can advance from the Liberal benches, to quell tribes in Egypt, India, Persia and Afghanistan who may be rebelling against foreign rule, the foreign yoke. You who talk about Kaiserism being imposed on you, impose your Kaiserism on the people in every other
  1922
  part of the world. It is brazen effrontery of the worst kind to sit on the Liberal benches and talk in that contemptuous manner about natives in different parts of the world. I was amazed and horrified to hear a statement of that character coming from the hon. Member for East Wolver Hampton. We might have expected it from a retired general or a retired admiral, but from a man who sits in the security and seclusion of this House to come out with a statement of that kind is brutal in the extreme.
  I stand here, not as a pacifist; I stand here as a human being, who is always prepared to defend his rights, and would be delighted to defend a country in which the whole of the people had a stake and that was being invaded by another force which wanted to prevent the communal ownership of the means of life. A country which looked upon the security and well-being of the citizens as its first charge, I would say was a State worth defending, but a State that treats its people with contempt, that reduces them to poverty, that degrades its womanhood, that breaks up the homes and destroys the lives of children—I say to you frankly that I have nothing but contempt for your system, for your Government, and for rule of that kind. I stand here tonight saying that I support this Motion whole-heartedly, as an individual who believes that your force is destined to wage terrible war on men, women, and children of other nations. Recognising that you are heading for war I ask Members of the House with reason, intelligence and consciousness to go into the Lobby for the reduction of this Force from 31,000 to 1,000, which is tantamount to the wiping out of the entire Force.
  11.10 p.m.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I do not propose to detain the Committee long.
  HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I hope that hon. Members of the Conservative party who have been longest in the House realise that our capacity to keep them sitting late is not limited by the smallness of our numbers. It is cheeky and offensive to cry "Hear, hear." It is quite easy for any hon. Member who is one in hundreds, but I am only one in four. I support this Amendment because I believe it is the right thing to do. Our

  1923
  views are the same on each of the fighting Services, but we do not wish to inconvenience Members by having more than one Division, as that will suffice to provide a vote on what to us is a matter of principle. We are entitled to state our case. I have listened to almost every speech in this Debate, and I confess that the speeches today have reached a higher level than those in the Debates on any of the fighting Services. I never thought that the Under-Secretary could speak as he spoke today. I thought his was a brilliant speech, from his own point of view, and that other speeches were very ably delivered.
  What is our case? We on these benches think that we represent very poor people. Even if we risk unpopularity we think it wrong for us to neglect our duty in this House. What is our duty? I remember my predecessor in this House, Mr. George Barnes. He was a man of honesty and integrity, and he parted from the Labor party at the time of the War. He succeeded in getting the people in my division to support the War. He did it honestly. They were told that if they voted for him and pursued the War it was the last war, and that never more would the people from the slums be asked to go out again and take part in the slaughter. These men in their tens of thousands left everything. I do not say that the rich did not make sacrifices, that they did not show valor and bravery, but the sacrifice made by the poor people was far more. When a rich man was killed his dependants were not faced with poverty, as was the case when a poor man was killed. These poor people left the slums, left houses which were not worth defending in order to go out and fight. Today we are asked to spend more on the air. Why? Because you are to fight another war. Your army is no longer efficient, your navy is no longer the key power it was: and we have to spend more on the air. The pledges made to these poor men and women have been broken. It does not matter whether the blame is ours or somebody else's; the fact of the matter is that these poor people are being called upon to get ready for another war. What is the reason for war? The military reason is that it is to make the nation secure. It may be that the other nation is the aggressor, but
  1924
  even so the reason given for an army and an air force is to make the nation secure. What does security mean? For the ordinary man it means his home, his wife, his brains. You are going to ask these folk to fight for security when today thousands of them have not security in their homes today. What right have you to ask them to fight for security when you cannot give them security in their homes?
  Yesterday I stood in a Glasgow court, packed with hundreds of souls, everyone of whom was fighting to keep his house. If a German or a Japanese came to-morrow they could not inflict greater hardships on these people. I remember that when I was about seven or eight years old being carried by my mother out of the house late at night because the fear of the sheriff's officer was greater than the fear of Germans or foreigners. Who is it that joins the Army in peace time? If you are to have an Army it is important to have an Army in peace times as well as in war. Who joins the Army now in times of peace? Leave out the officers, who joins the rank and file? Are they the sons of Members of Parliament, of doctors, of teachers, or even of artisans who are in work? Not one in one hundred belong to those classes. I stood on Saturday last in Bath Street, Glasgow, and saw hundreds of young men— well perhaps that is an exaggeration, but at least 30 or 40— waiting their turn to join. Years ago, when trade was good it was almost necessary to go out and haul them in. These were the sons of the poorest section of the community— the sons of those to whom you will not give security in their homes. They are being asked to defend their homes, but you will not give them homes. It is wrong for me or for any of us to ask these people to do what we would not do ourselves. I do not speak for Conservative Members; I know that their view is different from mine, but, from what I know of my own class and of the ideas of the comfortably-placed workman, I say that not one of us would wish to see a son joining the Army as an ordinary soldier. Working people would go on their bended knees to keep their sons from joining.
  These young men join, not because the sons of the working class are more bloodthirsty than the sons of the middle

  1925
  class, but for a very different cause. The young fellow of 18 or 19 wants fun and he only joins because there is no other life open to him. It is almost too cruel to picture a nation refusing these people their unemployment benefit, or cutting it down, and at the same time asking them, nay, forcing them into the Army by what is worse than conscription— the terror of want. You give them no home life and you ask them to defend a country in which they have no economic say, in which they can play no effective part at all. For those reasons we oppose the Vote, and for my part I have always done so in the case of Army, Navy and Air Force alike. I say from my constituents' point of view, that if the nation guarantees to the folk whom I represent decent homes and decent conditions of life, then I may reconsider my opinion. But while my folk live in want, almost in destitution, I could not recommend them to join. An hon. Member said that they would be killed at home if they did not go out to fight and defend themselves. To my people, and I share this view with them, death has no great terrors. What is life to them? It is nothing, and they have no great fear of being killed. For many of them life holds only one hope, and that is death. For our part, we shall go into the Lobby to vote against the nation spending these millions for war instead of leaving the nation reasonably organized, decently and socially minded, to vote its resources and its capacity, not for destruction, but for the uplifting of humanity.
  11.26 p.m.
  Mr. LANSBURY: Hon. Members who sit here— —[HON. MEMBERS: "When-are they?"] I suppose where many of you have been all the evening. I know it is late, but I am going to say what. I propose to say. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up !"] I intend to speak just as loudly and as softly as I choose and, if hon. Members wish to hear me, I am certain that my voice will carry if they will kindly be silent while I am speaking. I have listened to most of this Debate this evening, and I wish to state my point of view. My hon. Friends here, as has been the case ever since we were a party, are divided on the question of pacifism. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] That is our business, and I think the insolence of the hon. Member
  1926
  is worthy of him at this hour of the night. It is 10 years since a number of us moved a similar Amendment as that which has been moved tonight. Each of us voted in our own way, and, as I do not want to give a silent vote tonight, and as I believe that my view is held by some of my colleagues, I want to put it to the Committee.
  I take very much the view of the social conditions and the results of war that was stated by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern), but my view about war and violence would not be changed even if conditions were more secure. I feel that violence and war and all the accompaniments of those evils have brought disaster upon disaster on previous civilisations, and that it is not only morally true, but historically true, that individuals and nations that take to the sword perish by the sword. I believe that that is a fundamental truth, quite apart from any ethical consideration. History proves that, but, if I believed in violence and war, I should be inclined to be on the side of many of those who have spoken tonight. There cannot be any half measures about this. Either you go to war and prepare for war in the most thorough manner possible, or you must take the view, as I do, that it is wrong to go into war at all. I cannot see any halfway house. I have never been able to see it, and I cannot see it tonight.
  There was one speaker earlier in the evening who arrived at conclusions which I do not accept, but in his speech he used the same language as the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hopkins on) employed the other night. He said that people's minds, and their attitude to life, must be changed, that there must be a change of heart. I would say to my hon. Friends below the Gangway that it is really a mistake for us to think that very poor people take our view about this. I sit for Bow and Bromley and have lived there for very many years, and at the outbreak of war— before the declaration of war— I held meetings in order to try to rouse opinion against the war. The people who opposed me most, who were most bitter in their opposition, were some of the very poorest of the poor. And as I see this thing, and as life passes along, the more certain I am that there is absolutely no hope for mankind until there is this sort of change in our mental and moral outlook towards one another.

  1927
  I do not believe the world can be made better by forcing something on to people. I may be inconsistent in being in this place at all, but I am quite certain that you will never make a nation what you want that nation to be merely by Acts of Parliament— by what you can do for it. The people have got to get it into their own minds that the world is what we make it and our country is what we make it, and we have got to get the ordinary young men and women to understand that it is not people like us who can save them, but that they must save themselves. They must learn the lesson that we are trying to put here— that all down the ages man has tried to get his way by force and domination and power; and in the end it has been just Dead Sea fruit.
  I do not stand here as any paragon of virtue or religion. I feel tremendous hesitancy in speaking about these things, but I am so confident that the great religious teachers were right when they said, all of them, from Confucius to Christ himself, and onwards, that the Kingdom of God, the thing that mankind wants most, is within men and women, and also that all human life is sacred. Anyone here who believes in the Incarnation must believe that. I am not thinking of those who are agnostics or who do not accept our faith, I am thinking of those who say they believe in Christianity. In that case, because of the Incarnation, they must believe that all human life is sacred, and if that is true then I cannot feel that it is right, under any circumstances, to kill my fellow men and women. I cannot think of one of the early Christians in an aeroplane dropping bombs. I cannot believe
  that He, the most sacred figure in all history, would have wanted to gain his way by destruction, by killing, by force. It is for those reasons and for no other reasons that I shall go into the Lobby in support of this reduction.
  11.35 p.m.
  Sir P. SASSOON: The whole Committee must have been deeply moved by the sincerity of the speech to which we have just listened from the Leader of the Opposition. Whatever view is put to this House with such sincerity we always listen to with pleasure and respect. The hon. Members for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) and Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) have this year chosen the Air Estimates to make the speeches that they make year by year on one service or another. The views that they have expressed are not new to us, nor are they any more relevant to the Air Estimates than they are to any other service. The speeches are, in reality, general expressions of feeling as to what is the best method of avoiding war. As I said earlier on, the Committee is always glad to listen to expressions of opinion, stated with so much sincerity and with so much engaging skill. I hope that hon. Members will not think it discourteous of me, after such a long Debate, if I say that I do not agree with those views, because I think that if they were put into practice they would not have the results that the hon. Members desire. For that reason, I cannot accept this Amendment.
  Question put, "That a number, not exceeding 1,000, all ranks, be maintained for the said Service."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 23; Noes, 216.

  Division No. 82.]

  AYES.

  [11.38 p.m.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Lunn, William

  Cape, Thomas

  Hirst, George Henry

  McEntee, Valentine L.

  Cripps, Sir Stafford

  Jenkins, Sir William

  Maxton, James

  Daggar, George

  John, William

  Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

  Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Sllvertown)

  Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

  Dobble, William

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Edwards, Charies

  Kirkwood, David

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Grenfell, David Rees (Giamorgan)

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Mr. Buchanan and Mr. McCovern.

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Logan, David Gilbert

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Balfour, Capt. Harold (1. of Thanet)

  Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn)

  Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

  Bafniel, Lord

  Bllndell, James

  Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

  Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

  Borodale, Viscount

  Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Aske, Sir Robert William

  Batsman, A. L.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

  Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th.C.)

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Belt, Sir Alfred L.

  Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

  Pike, Cecil F.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Hornby, Frank

  Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

  Ralkes, Henry V, A. M.

  Browne, Captain A. C.

  Hudson, Capt. A. u. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

  Buchan, John

  Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

  Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Jesson, Major Thomas E.

  Ramsden, Sir Eugene

  Burghley, Lord

  Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

  Ratcliffe, Arthur

  Burnett, John George

  Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

  Ray, Sir William

  Caporn, Arthur Cecil

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

  Carver, Major William H.

  Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

  Reid. James S. C. (Stirling)

  Castlereagh, Viecount

  Ker, J. Campbell

  Held, William Allan (Derby)

  Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)

  Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

  Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Kerr, Hamilton W.

  Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Lamb, Sir Joseph Ouinton

  Robinson, John Roland

  Clayton, Dr. George C.

  Latham. Sir Herbert Paul

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Law, Sir Alfred

  Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Leckle, J. A.

  Runge, Norah Cecil

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

  Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Lees-Jones, John

  Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

  Conant, R. J. E.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'I)

  Cook, Thomas A.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Salmon, Sir Isidore

  Cooke, Douglas

  Lewis, Oswald

  Salt, Edward W.

  Copeland, Ida

  Liddall, Walter S.

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

  Lindsay, Noel Ker

  Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

  Craven. Eflis, William

  Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

  Crooke, J. Smedley

  Llewellin, Major John J.

  Selley, Harry R.

  Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

  Lloyd, Geoffrey

  Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

  Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

  Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Davles, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll)

  Leckwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

  Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.

  Dlckie, John P.

  Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

  Shute, Colonel J. J.

  Doran, Edward

  MacAndrew, Lt.-Col C. G. (Partick)

  Skelton, Archibald Noel

  Drewe, Cedric

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Smiles, Lieut.-Col. sir Walter D.

  Duckworth, George A. V.

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  Duggan, Hubert John

  McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

  Somervell, Donald Bradley

  Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

  McKie, John Hamilton

  Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

  Dunglass, Lord

  McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

  Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

  Eastwood, John Francis

  Macmillan, Maurice Harold

  Spencer, Captain Richard A.

  Elliston, Captain George Sampson

  Mallalleu, Edward Lancelot

  Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)

  Eimley, viscount

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Strauss, Edward A.

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Marsden, Commander Arthur

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

  Martin, Thomas B.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

  Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Sutcllffe, Harold

  Fleming, Edward Lascelles

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Templeton, William P.

  Fox, Sir Glfford

  Mitchell. Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

  Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

  Fremantle, Sir FrancTs

  Mltcheson, G. G.

  Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

  Fuller, Captain A. G.

  Moreing, Adrian C.

  Thorp, Linton Theodore

  Gledhill, Gllbert

  Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Glossop, C. W. H.

  Morrison, William Shephard

  Titchfleld, Major the Marquess of

  Glucksteln, Louis Halle

  Muirhead, Major A. J.

  Touche, Gordon Cosmo

  Goldle, Noel B.

  Munro, Patrick

  Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

  Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

  Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Warrender, sir Victor A. G.

  Graves, Marjorle

  Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

  Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

  Greene, William P. C.

  Normand, Wllfrid Guild

  Wells, Sydney Richard

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Nunn, William

  Weymouth, Viscount

  Grimston, R. V.

  O'Connor, Terence James

  Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

  Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

  O'Donovan, Dr. William James

  Whyte, Jardine Bell

  Guy, J. C. Morrison

  Palmer, Francis Noel

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Hales, Harold K.

  Pearson, William G.

  Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

  Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon)

  Penny, Sir George

  Wills, Wilfrid D.

  Hanley, Dennis A.

  Percy, Lord Eustace

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaka)

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Perkins, Walter R. D.

  Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

  Petherick, M.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bilston)

  Lord Erskine and Commander Southby.

  Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  PAY, ETC., OF THE ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  Resolved,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £4,110,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Pay, etc., of the Royal Air Force at home and abroad, exclusive of those serving in India (other than Aden), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934."

  WORKS, BUILDINGS AND LANDS.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  " That a sum, not exceeding £1,610,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Works, Buildings, Repairs, and Lands, including Civilian Staff and other Charges connected therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934."
  11.47 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: I should like to draw attention to the hardships

  1931
  that will be incurred by the inhabitants of Mablethorpe and the sea coast of Lincolnshire and holiday makers from Leicester, Nottingham and other Midland towns if one of the proposed actions of the Air Ministry takes place. They propose to take all the available sands between Cleethorpes and Mablethorpe for the purpose of a machine gun range and even at one time proposed to shut off part of the town planning area of Mablethorpe itself. As a result of negotiations I am glad to say they have undertaken not to carry out operations on the range during the months of August. I should like to thank the Under-Secretary for having met us in that way. They have also agreed to shut down the range on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays, for which I thank them. I should like to suggest that they keep the sands free during July. I recognise the difficulties of the Air Ministry in the matter and so I am sure do the councilors and the inhabitants of Mablethorpe, but the shopkeepers and farmers and agricultural laborers depend on the summer visitors who come to these marvelous sands, the finest in England, and, if they are debarred from coming to them in July, it will create great local hardship. I need hardly stress the importance in this industrial age of allowing fresh air outlets among healthful surroundings to the industrial Midlands during the holiday season. The Air Ministry hitherto have said that they cannot meet us as far as July is concerned. I suggest as a compromise— though I have not the authority of the urban district for doing so— that they should allow us the last 10 days in July in addition to August. I ask it because the August Bank Holiday comes in the first week of August and holiday-makers send their families on before the Bank Holiday, during the last weeks of July. For this purpose they naturally require the use of the sands for then-wives and children.
  I also suggest that machine gunning on this part should not take place. The House is probably not aware that the Air Ministry proposes to use these sands for machine gunning as well as bombing and that the bombing takes place outside in the water. If machine gunning is not allowed, it will be quite evident that the
  1932
  sands will be available for the holiday makers. I should also like to suggest that the Air Minister should meet the wishes of the urban district, which have been communicated to him, because these bodies would welcome the Air Force coming to Lincolnshire. It is a great pity that there should arise the present feeling against the Air Force and that it should be accentuated. We wish that the bad feeling which at present exists should die away, and, as far as I possibly can, I will do all in my power to affect this. Having suggested what I consider would meet the wishes of my constituents; I hope very much that the Air Minister will meet us in this matter.
  11.57 p.m.
  Mr. DUCKWORTH: I must apologies for detaining the Committee at this extremely late hour. The point I wish to raise on this Vote is one which, though purely a local one, is of very considerable interest to many of my constituents. It concerns the vacant land and buildings at Harlescot just outside Shrewsbury, which were occupied from the middle of the War up to March a year ago by the Mechanical Transport Repair Depot of the Department of my right hon. Friend. This depot was established at very considerable expense during the War and doubtless at inflated prices. The property covers nearly 60 acres, and the capital cost of the land and buildings amounted to about £ 550,000. As may be readily imagined, this depot, with an establishment of about 400 men, was a considerable asset both to the town and trade of Shrewsbury, and it came as a very severe blow to the town when, doubtless for very good reasons of economy, it was decided to abandon the depot in March of last year. The blow was to some extent softened by the prospect that the whole of the site might very speedily be put to some other use, but unfortunately the hopes that were held out have been entirely disappointed and the site has remained entirely vacant and unoccupied for the last 12 months.
  From the point of view of housing alone, there are no less than 54 buildings, which include 38 houses, which constituted the married quarters, and three houses of a larger type which accommodated the officers. All those houses, together with the other buildings, have now been empty for 12 months. There

  1933
  must by now be very considerable depreciation, as week after week and month after month has gone by. Taking into account the housing shortage which exists in the borough of Shrewsbury and in other towns, it is scarcely surprising that many of my constituents regard the situation as a very unusual case of scarcity in the midst of plenty. In this connection, it is interesting to note that the Ordnance Office at Pembroke Dock is shortly to be moved to Shrewsbury. During January the Assistant Director of Ordnance at Pembroke Dock wrote to the town clerk of Shrewsbury and asked for information as to suitable housing accommodation in the town.
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Whatever else for which the Air Ministry may be responsible, they are not responsible for Ordnance.
  Mr. DUCKWORTH: I bow to your Ruling, Captain Bourne, but I only wish to point out, in reply, that it was stated that there was great difficulty in providing houses, when strangely enough, another Government Department was keeping no less than 40 houses unoccupied just outside the town. I am well aware from the questions which I have put in the past upon this matter that the Air Ministry are anxious to dispose of the whole of the property in one lot, and that hopes have been entertained that it would be purchased by some industrial undertaking. I believe that negotiations have actually been carried out with that end in view, but so far they have been unsuccessful and nothing more has come of them. I admit that there may be very good arguments for trying to dispose of the whole site in this manner if, indeed, a better price can be obtained, and if there is a real likelihood of some industrial undertaking purchasing the site. Doubtless it is only right that a reasonable time should be allowed to elapse and a fair chance given to the policy of disposing of the site in this way. But the present situation cannot be continued indefinitely, because there is another side to the question, and the very considerable depreciation which is involved in keeping the premises unoccupied must be taken into account.
  From the information which has been supplied to me locally, I understand that the chances of selling the property to an industrial undertaking are extremely
  1934
  slender. The buildings themselves, other than the houses, are quite unsuitable for industrial purposes, and they will probably have to be demolished and completely rebuilt, and the value in that respect would probably be very negligible. It follows that either extremely advantageous terms should be held out to any intending purchaser, or else some alternative method to dispose of the property should be considered. In view of the time which has elapsed, I seriously suggest to my right hon. Friend that the sale of the property in lots might be considered. At any rate, it would enable the valuable housing accommodation to be put to some use. I shall be very glad if my right hon. Friend can give me some indication as to the attitude of his Department, and of the prospects there may be of disposing of the site and getting it put to some useful purpose.
  12 m.
  Mr. LEWIS: I want to call attention to the action of the Air Ministry in regard to property they have acquired at Hampstead Heath. It consists of a house and garden, situated at the very highest point of the Heath and pretty nearly in the centre of the Heath. It is, therefore, visible from many parts of the Heath. There is a town planning scheme which affects property adjoining the Heath on different sides, and it covers the land on which the property stands. This scheme has recently been put into operation. The Air Ministry, as a defence service, is not subject to Town Planning Acts and can, if it so wills, disregard a town planning scheme. I submit that that exception was given to them in order that they might not be hampered in works of defence by the operation of a town planning scheme. It was not meant to apply to such a case as this, because this property is not required for the purpose of an aerodrome, or for flying or bombing; it is to be used as the general headquarters and officers' mess for the auxiliary air squadron of the county of Middlesex. In these circumstances the Air Ministry should observe the terms of the town planning scheme, exactly like any other owner would be compelled to do. The London County Council and the Hampstead Borough Council have both protested and have been for some time in negotiation with the Air Ministry on the matter.

  1935
  The Under-Secretary of State for Air stated in this House last July that no formal undertaking had been given that the terms of the town planning scheme would be observed, but that he hoped a satisfactory solution would be come to. He added that the main proposals in regard to the premises were for the internal adaptation of the house for the purpose for which it was required. The proposals go much further than that, otherwise the town planning scheme would not be affected and the Hampstead Borough Council would not be affected. There is a proposal to erect additional and unsightly buildings. In November of last year the Under-Secretary stated in the House that he was glad that an agreed settlement on the question had been reached, and that the plans of certain additional buildings were to be discussed with the London County Council. I understand that the County Council are still not satisfied with the proposals of the Ministry.
  The Minister of Health is in his place, and I hope he will support me in this case. It is useless to bring forward town planning schemes if Government Departments are going to disregard them. The Minister of Health sent out a circular recently to local authorities pointing out the advantages of applying town planning schemes. In effect, the Under-Secretary of State for Air is saying that in the opinion of his Department this particular town planning scheme, which has only just come into operation in Hampstead, is unnecessary and unreasonable, and that he, speaking for the Air Ministry, will not comply with it. That is an attitude which, having regard to the purpose for which the building is required, should not be insisted upon by the Air Ministry. I make an appeal to the Under-Secretary. He has some reputation as a patron of the arts. He is reputed to be a lover of beautiful things. Does he wish his name to go down to posterity as that of a man who is largely responsible for the disfigurement of one of the most beautiful open spaces in London? I realise that the Secretary of State is not in the House and that the Under-Secretary of State must be guarded in his reply, but I hope he will be able to assure us that he will do his best to get the Ministry to abandon the attitude they have taken up
  1936
  and instead to agree to do what any other owner under these circumstances would be compelled to do, namely, to follow the lines of this town planning scheme, which has only just been introduced. I hope that, in taking that attitude, I shall have the support of the Minister of Health.
  12.6 a.m.
  Mr. LOUIS SMITH: I want to support the appeal made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Louth (Lieut.-Colonel Heneage). I can fully sympathise with those who have used those attractive sandhills at Mablethorpe on the Lincolnshire coast. I represent a constituency that is very much interested, because large numbers of people from Sheffield take their children to these sandhills, and one can fully realise that to find their cricket pitches and so on giving way to bombing practice and machine-gun practice would be rather a shock to them when they go down to these seaside places. The hon. and gallant Member for Louth appealed for restrictions to be put on this bombing practice in the latter part of July each year. I would appeal to the Minister to extend that period from the middle of July to the end of August, because I think that during the few weeks when, in the industrial areas, they look forward to the quiet, peaceful atmosphere of these delightful seaside resorts of Mablethorpe and Sutton, we could, on their behalf, ask the Air Ministry to give them an extra fortnight or so. One feels that it is a sad thing that the quiet and peace of the Lincolnshire coast should be given up to this bombing practice. We are very proud indeed to have the Air Force at Oranwell, and we are wishful to help the Air Force in Lincolnshire in every way possible, but on behalf of those who use these seaside places we appeal to the Secretary of State to do what he can to restrict the nuisance which it would be to have this practice going on during the period I have mentioned.
  12.8 a.m.
  Sir P. SASSOON: I think the hon. Member who has just sat down, who, in company with the hon. and gallant Member for Louth (Lieut.-Colonel Heneage), has on several occasions during the past year discussed the matter of these ranges at Mablethorpe, will be prepared to admit that we have on every occasion shown

  1937
  the greatest possible good will and desire to meet them on almost every point, but I do not believe that anybody unfamiliar with the whole subject who had been listening to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Louth this evening would have had any idea of how kind and considerate we have been to him and the constituents whom he so well represents in this House. He knows all the difficulties, and I do not want to recapitulate them to-night or to weary the House at this late hour by talking about this matter at any great length, but I think the hon. and gallant Member is very ungrateful. He asks if he can have 10 particular days at the end of July, and, although we cannot meet him actually on that point, we are prepared to say that we will consult with the local authorities and the people concerned, and try to arrange our' programme in such a way as to cause the least inconvenience to the townspeople, the inhabitants, and the holiday makers at those very beautiful sands that he has described so lyrically to-night. With regard to the town planning scheme, the hon. and gallant Member said we have taken part of the Mablethorpe town planning area.
  Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: I said in
  my speech that they had even at one time proposed to shut off part of the town planning area of Mablethorpe, but I understand they do not propose to do so now.
  Sir P. SASSOON: I thought the hon. and gallant Member rather gave the impression to the House that we had encroached on that scheme, but we have not done so at all. I do not think I can say anything more at the moment but reiterate our desire to meet him where we can on this matter. If he will leave it to us we will do the best we can.
  With regard to the depot at Shrewsbury, again I do not think I can say anything further. We put that depot in the market with the houses adjoining because we imagined that it would be easier, in these days of financial depression, to get rid of it to some firm, and that the houses would be useful for the employées of a firm. That is the reason why we do not want to separate the houses from the depot. I hope things will get better soon and that we shall have an offer for the depot and the houses. Then there was the question
  1938
  regarding the buildings for 604 Squadron at Heath Brow. I really was unable to follow the hon. Member, because I consider that the situation is on the whole very satisfactory. We had put forward designs for this particular building, a drill hall, but we have now said that we will prepare another design, and only if that design is approved by the London County Council and the Borough Council shall we proceed with it. In those circumstances I think the hon. Member has got a very satisfactory answer to his question.
  Mr. LEWIS: That is the first time, as far as I am aware, that that statement has been made publicly. It is quite satisfactory.

  TECHNICAL AND WARLIKE STORES (INCLUDING EXPERIMENTAL AND RESEARCH SERVICES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  " That a sum, not exceeding £7,203,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Technical and Warlike Stores (including Experimental and Research Services), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934."
  12.15 a.m.
  Mr. PERKINS: On this Vote I wish to ask a question about parachutes. There are three types of parachutes manufactured in this country. The Irvine parachute, which is made in England, and I understand is controlled by foreign capital. A second type, which I use, is the Russell-Lobe, which is controlled by British capital; and a third, the Quilter, which is approximately half the price of the other two. Why does the Ministry prefer to buy the parachute which is to a large extent foreign? Has the Quilter parachute been tested and proved reliable in every respect? There is another matter which I raised two months ago, about the sale of 20 Gypsy I engines. I received a circular stating that these engines were bought two or three years ago, that they have never been used, and were perfect in every respect. I have made certain inquiries, and I find that the sum paid for these engines was in the neighbourhood of £4,000. I find that these engines are practically value-

  1939
  less. I ask the Under-Secretary whether he has succeeded in selling them, and, if so, for how much?
  Sir P. SASSOON: I could not give an answer without obtaining some more definite information, but I will get a reply to both questions and communicate with my hon. Friend.

  CIVIL AVIATION.
  Resolved,
  " That a sum, not exceeding £490,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Civil Aviation, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934."
  Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (GENERAL EXCHEQUER CONTRIBUTIONS)BILL.
Considered in Committee.
[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Amounts to be included in, and amounts to be paid out of the Road Fund towards, General Exchequer Contributions for England and Scotland in second fixed-grant period.)
12.18 a.m.
Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: I beg to
move, in page 1, line 18, to leave out the words "fifty thousand," and to insert instead thereof the words "forty-nine thousand six hundred."
My Amendment is to reduce the sum by £ 400. I would like to make it plain that this Amendment reduces the sum which goes to Scotland. I would like also to make it perfectly plain to any Scottish hon. Member that this is not in any sense an attack upon Scotland. It simply alters the proportion of money which is being continually balanced in favour of Scotland against the general English taxpayer. That is a thing which ought to be protested against and shown up very clearly in the House of Commons. As was explained by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland the other day, we are giving at the present time a certain
1940
amount of new money which is fixed by law and therefore cannot be discussed, and we are giving an additional £2,000 to England and £500 to Scotland. The new money is in the proportion of one to four, while the surplus is in the proportion of two to seven. The only proper proportion for Scotland—there was a mistake in the previous Act, which enabled the sum to be balanced in the wrong way, thanks to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day, or the efficiency of the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) —is 11 to 80. I want to know whether the Minister or the Under-Secretary can give us any reason why this additional surplus sum should continue at so high a proportion beyond what has been laid down for Scotland. I ask the Under-Secretary of State whether he could not accept a reduction on this small sum of money, so that he might, at any rate, show good will towards the general taxpayer. I would like to give one additional reason for raising this point. We have been asked, as Members of Parliament, by Chancellor of the Exchequer after Chancellor of the Exchequer, to look at the Estimates, and at Measures as they come in, and, where we see needless expenditure of this kind, to use our best influences to try to get it put right. The Government which appealed to private Members to refrain from increasing expenditure is apparently quite needlessly adding to the burdens of the taxpayer.
12.21 a.m.
The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): The Committee will appreciate, I have no doubt, the general proposition of my hon. Friend that the House of Commons should scrutinise with great care every Estimate and every Vote that comes before it, and the Committee will, I am sure, sympathise with and appreciate the meticulous and anxious care of my hon. Friend on behalf of the Government. I should be the last to support any proposal that was not thoroughly in keeping with the principles of sound economy and sound legislation. It is on the latter ground, in particular, that I suggest to my hon. Friend that the Amendment that he is moving is unnecessary. The facts are, as the Committee well knows, that, in accordance with the provisions of the Local Government Act, 1929, a certain

1941
sum of what was called new money was found by Parliament for the assistance of local government, and, at the end of the first period of revision, that amount, which is determined by a variety of factors with which I need not weary the Committee, comes out for Scotland as an additional sum of £100,000, less £500. The Estimate is still provisional, and it is not possible at this date to give an absolutely fixed estimate as to the actual and accurate amount which the application of the formula will bring out. Therefore, in the Bill which is before the Committee, an additional £500 has been given in the case of the Scottish new money, and an additional sum of £2,000, in the case of the English new money.
This very small amount of elbow-room is in both cases necessary. It would unduly hamper the work of the Government and of the Departments in working out the proper figure if there were not this small margin. If it turned out that the provisional estimates were, even to the smallest extent, greater than the proposals of the Bill, we might find that we had not asked the Committee for a sufficient sum to fulfil the requirements of the Act of 1929. My hon. Friend appreciates that, because he would allow us a marginal sum of £100. As I say, the Estimate is still only provisional, and you are dealing with a sum of £100,000, I cannot therefore think that it would be wise for the Committee to restrict that marginal sum to so small a figure as £100. I ask my hon. Friend, now that he has brought the matter before the Committee and has shown such an admirable sense of the value of the Union by fortunately refusing to make any attack upon my native country of Scotland, to be so kind,
1942
in the interests of good administration, as to withdraw his Amendment.
12.25 a.m.
Mr. C. WILLIAMS: The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has not answered the point that I put to him regarding the proportion. On the last occasion, he and the great National Government, not finding any arguments, had to appeal to the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) to save them. Remembering that, and the lateness of the hour, and after the appeal that the hon. Gentleman has made, I think that it would be kinder, rather than attack the Government, who have not got the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs here, if I asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 (Short title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time upon Thursday.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Twenty-seven Minutes after Twelve o' Clock.

  POOR LAW RELIEF (CUMBERLAND).
  POOR LAW RELIEF (CUMBERLAND).
  ARGENTINE RAILWAYS (BRITISH GOODS).
  ARGENTINE RAILWAYS (BRITISH GOODS).
  SHOP THEFTS, LONDON (PROSECUTIONS).
  SHOP THEFTS, LONDON (PROSECUTIONS).
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, KIELDER.
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, KIELDER.
  LOWDHAM GRANGE BORSTAL INSTITUTION.
  LOWDHAM GRANGE BORSTAL INSTITUTION.
SCOTLAND.
  NATIONAL ENSIGN.
  NATIONAL ENSIGN.
  POOR LAW RELIEF.
  POOR LAW RELIEF.
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill entitled Children and Young Persons Bill, which consolidates certain enactments relating to persons under the age of eighteen; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Lucan)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

VISITING FORCES (BRITISH COMMONWEALTH) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
THE SECRETARY of STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I beg to move that the Amendments to this Bill be considered and agreed to. They are in fact only Privilege Amendments.
Moved, That these Amendments be now considered and agreed to—(Viscount Hailsham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Amendments agreed to accordingly.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT 1932 (EDMONTON URBAN DISTRICT ORDER).
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg to move that the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act for extending Section 1 of the Act to the urban district of Edmonton be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the urban district of Edmonton, and laid before this House on the 23rd February, be approved—(The Earl of Lucan
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT , 1932 (HAYES AND HARLINGTON URBAN DISTRICT ORDER).
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg to move a similar Order extending the Act to the urban district of Hayes and Harlington.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the urban district of Hayes and Harlington, and laid before this House on the 23rd February, be approved—(The Earl of Lucan)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BUCKINGHAM AND OXFORD) BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LEEK) BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (RUGBY JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (TAUNTON AND DISTRICT JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

PHARMACY AND POISONS BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee—(The Earl of Lucan)
On Question, Motion agreed to
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 8 agreed to.
Clause 9:
Conditions to be fulfilled by body corporate in order to become authorised seller of poisons
9—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, a body corporate carrying on a business which comprises the retail sale of drugs shall be an authorised seller of poisons within the meaning of this Act if the following conditions are complied with—

(a) the business must, so far as concerns the keeping, retailing, dispensing and compounding of poisons, be under the management of a superintendent in relation to whom the following requirements are fulfilled:

(i) he must be a registered pharmacist;

(ii) a statement in writing signed by him and on behalf of the body corporate stating his name and specifying whether or not he is a member of the board must have been sent to the registrar;

(iii) he must not be acting at the time in a similar capacity for any other body corporate; and

(b) in each set of premises where the business is carried on, the business must, so far as concerns the retail sale of drugs, if not under the personal control of the superintendent, be carried on, subject to the directions of the superintendent, under the personal control of a manager or assistant who is a registered pharmacist; and

(c) the name and certificate of registration of the person having the control of business as aforesaid, whether he is the superintendent or some other person, must be conspicuously exhibited in the premises.

(2) Notwithstanding the restrictions imposed by the foregoing provisions of this Act on the use of certain titles, emblems and descriptions, a body corporate which is au authorised seller of poisons may, if the superintendent is a member of the board, use the description of chemist and druggist, or of chemist, or of druggist, or of dispensing chemist or dispensing druggist, and the description "pharmacy" may be used in connection with the business:
Provided that nothing in this subsection shall authorise the use of any of the said descriptions in or on any premises which are for the time being disqualified by virtue of a direction under this section from being registered in the register of premises, or in connection with any business so far as it is carried on in any premises so disqualified.
(3) A body corporate which is entitled by virtue of the last foregoing subsection to use certain descriptions as therein provided may, if it is a private company within the meaning of the Companies Act, 1929, and every director of the company is a pharmaceutical chemist, also use the description of pharmaceutical chemist or of pharmacist.
Loan COZENS-HARDY Loan COZENS-HARDY moved to, leave out subsection (3). The noble Lord said: When a similar Bill was before your Lordships on a previous occasion the noble Lord who was then in charge of the Bill accepted an Amendment from me in the terms of this subsection, but, for reasons which have come to my notice since then, I think that the case which this subsection was intended to meet does not in practice ever arise. I understand also there is a considerable doubt whether the subsection would not be abused, and I therefore beg to move that it be deleted.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 8, leave out subsection (3)—(Lord Cozens-Hardy)
THE EARL OF LUCAN: As the noble Lord has said this subsection was put into the Bill in 1931 on his motion, but the condition to which it applies (that every director of a private company should be a pharmaceutical chemist) is very unlikely to arise in practice and there is no reason why it should not be dropped. I understand that the Pharmaceutical Society are anxious that it should be dropped. Therefore I will accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to
Clauses 10 to 22 agreed to.
Clause 23:
Power of Secretary of State to make rules
23—(1) The Secretary of State may, after consultation with or on the recommendation of the Poisons Board, make rules with respect to any of the following matters or for any of the following purposes:

(a) the manufacture of pharmaceutical preparations containing poisons:

(b) the sale, whether wholesale or retail, or the supply of poisons, by or to any persons or classes of persons and in particular but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provisions—

(i) for regulating or restricting the sale or supply of poisons by persons whose names are entered in a local authority's list and for prohibiting the sale of any specified poison or class of poisons by any class of such persons: and

(ii) for prohibiting the sale by retail of poisons (being poisons included in Part I of the Poisons List) except on a prescription duly given by a duly qualified medical practitioner, registered dentist or registered veterinary surgeon, and for prescribing the form and
1086
regulating the use of prescriptions given for the purpose of rules made under this paragraph; and

(iii) for dispensing with or relaxing with respect to poisons any of the provisions contained in Part II of this Act relating to the sale of poisons:

(c) the storage, transport and labelling of poisons:

(d) the containers in which poisons may be sold or supplied:

(e) the addition to poisons of specified ingredients for the purpose of rendering them readily distinguishable as poisons:

(f) the compounding and dispensing of poisons:

(g) the period for which any books required to be kept for the purposes of Part II of this Act are to be preserved:

(h) the period for which any certificate given under Part II of this Act is to remain in force:

(i) for requiring persons in control of the manufacture of pharmaceutical preparations containing poisons to be registered pharmacists or persons possessing the prescribed qualification in chemistry:

(j) for prescribing anything which is by this Act to be prescribed by rules.

(2) The power to make rules under this section with respect to poisons includes the power to make rules with respect to any class of poisons or any particular poison.
THE EARL OF LUCAN THE EARL OF LUCAN moved to add to the clause:
"(3) The Secretary of State may issue to the Poisons Board a direction that the power of the Board to make recommendations as to the making of rules with respect to the matters or for the purposes specified in paragraphs (a), (b) (i), (c), (d), (e) and (i) of subsection (1) of this section shall not be exercised except after consultation with such body of persons as is specified in the direction, being a body which is, in his opinion, representative of persons engaged in the manufacture of poisons or preparations containing poisons, and the Board shall comply with any such direction.
The Secretary of State may, from time to time, revoke or vary any such direction, without prejudice to the issue of a new direction."
The noble Earl said: This Amendment is being moved as a result of representations which have been made to the effect that the rules which will be made under Clause 23 will in several respects be in regard to matters upon which manufacturers have obtained considerable experience and about which they are in a position to give valuable advice. It has always been to the interest of responsible manufacturers of poisons to ensure that their products should not be misused or

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cause damage, and they have therefore given considerable thought to such questions as, for instance, the labelling of poisons and the containers in which poisons may be supplied. Their advice will be useful, too, on the question of the practicability of adding to poisons specific ingredients for the purpose of rendering them readily distinguishable as poisons. It is manifestly desirable that the advice of manufacturers should be obtained by the Poisons Board on such points, and the Amendment is moved to give statutory recognition to the principle.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 22, at end insert the said new subsection—(The Earl of Lucan)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule:

FIRST SCHEDULE.
Proceedings of the Statutory Committee
3. The Statutory Committee may make regulations as to the procedure to be followed by them in exercising the jurisdiction conferred on them by this Act, hut no such regulation shall have effect until confirmed by the Privy Council and the Privy Council may confirm any such regulation either with or without modifications:
Provided that where the Privy Council propose to confirm the regulations with modifications the Privy Council shall inform the Committee of the proposed modifications and give to them a reasonable opportunity of making any observations with respect thereto, and shall, before finally confirming the regulations, take into consideration any observations so made.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in paragraph 3, to omit the first "them" and to insert "it." The noble Viscount said: In reading this Bill I noticed with great pleasure that "Committee" was treated in the singular. My delight, however, was not very long lived, for when I came to the First Schedule I found it had slipped back into the plural. I do not think that is very neat and for that reason I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 24, leave out ("them") and insert ("it")—(Viscount Bertie of Thame)
THE EARL OF LUCAN: We are always very grateful to the noble Viscount for correcting any grammatical mistakes that
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may arise. Consultation has been made of various works on the subject and, although there is no right or wrong in treating a noun of multitude as either singular or plural, still it has been agreed that in future the better course would be to treat these nouns as being of the singular number. I may say that there are one or two other cases which have been noticed since the noble Viscount's Amendment was put down which even his eagle eye missed. However, we accept his Amendment.
LORD RHAYADER: I see a certain difficulty in this procedure because in the earlier part of this Schedule it is provided that the quorum of the Statutory Committee shall be three. How can a singular body have a quorum of three? It seems to me that it would be better in this Schedule to have the plural form as you are dealing with a body which is definitely stated to be composed of units. You cannot talk of a body which is singular and say it shall have a quorum of three.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I take it that the noble Lord has read the Bill and he will have noticed on page 6 that Clause 7 (2) reads:
"If the statutory Committee think fit in any case so to do, it may, either of its own Motion••"
Again, on page 11 of the Bill, he will see in Clause 11 (1):
"the Committee shall not give any such direction unless proof is given to its satisfaction."
If the noble Lord holds the views which he has just expressed I venture to suggest that it was his duty to have moved to put these two cases into the plural.
LORD RHAYADER: May I say I have watched the noble Viscount's efforts with some anxiety, but this is the first opportunity I have had of raising the point.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I have two other Amendments on the Paper which are consequential. I beg to move
Amendments moved—
Page 31, line 25, leave out ("them") and insert ("it").
Page 31, line 31, leave out ("them") and insert ("it").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedules agreed to.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND (PROPERTY AND ENDOWMENTS) AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, this Bill has been introduced by the Government in response to representations by the authorities of the Church of Scotland. It involves no new principle and raises no issue of public importance. Its sole purpose is to rectify some omissions and defects in the Church of Scotland (Property and Endowments) Act of 1925. One of the principal objects of the Act of 1925 was to give to the Church of Scotland full control of its own property and endowments. In the case of the ordinary civil and ecclesiastical parish, which is known as aquoad omnia parish, this simply involved the transfer of the powers and duties of the heritors of the parish to the General Trustees of the Church, to whom the Act gave all necessary powers of control and disposal of churches and church property in those parishes. But there were numerous other classes of churches and properties which required special provisions, and it is with regard to these that in various respects the Act of 1925 has been found not to have done all that is necessary. It omitted, for example, to give to the General Trustees the same powers of disposal of property in quoad sacra parishes — that is, parishes which were erected under certain old Acts for purely ecclesiastical purposes—as these Trustees Obtained in regard to the quoad omnia parishes. These powers are dealt with in the first three clauses of the Bill.
I do not think I need explain the clauses of the Bill in detail. They are all of that character— all designed to meet small but real difficulties in the working of the Act of 1925 or to facilitate the efficient organisation of the Church's
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work The authorities of the Church have satisfied the Secretary of State for Scotland that these amendments are necessary and desirable, and so far as the Government is aware they raise no controversial issue. If, however, there is any point on which noble Lords wish for further information I shall be happy to give a fuller explanation, so far as it lies in my power to do so, either now or at a later stage. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and referred to a Committee of the Whole House.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House if, owing to the large number of Amendments put down to the London Passenger Transport Bill to-morrow he is making any special arrangement for the meeting of the House?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for putting the question to me. There is a very large number of amendments to the London Passenger Transport Bill. With one or two exceptions, where they are substantial, the great bulk of them are drafting but their consideration, I am afraid, must necessarily take considerable time, even with the celerity of my noble friend the Lord Chairman of Committees, in going through them, and I am proposing therefore to ask the House to be good enough to meet at three o'clock. I do not think there will be anything very contentious for the first hour or so. I have ascertained that this does not interfere with the judicial business and, therefore, if it meets with general convenience, I would ask the House to meet at three.
House adjourned at twenty-eight minutes before five o'clock.

PRESTON CORPORATION BILL
Brought form the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have appointed a Committee of six Members to join with the Committee appointed by this House, as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of the 7th instant, to consider all Consolidation Bills of the present Session, and a Message ordered to be sent to the House of Commons to propose that the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills do meet in Committee Room A, on Wednesday the 22nd instant, at eleven o'clock.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
Doncaster Area Drainage.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

LYME REGIS DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 1st and 2nd instant discharged, and Bill committed.

DOVER HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
RHONDDA PASSENGER TRANSPORT BILL. [H.L.]
WORKSOP CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
RUGBY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
BARKING CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
CANTERBURY EXTENSION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed
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to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills, namely

L. Manners,

L. Abinger,

L. Hare (E. Listowel),

L. Rhayader,

L. Rankeillour (Chairman):

Agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Tuesday the 28th instant, at eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE
Report from, That the Standing Orders not completed with in respect of the petition for additional provision in the Salford Corporation Bill [H.L.] ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to the Committee on the Bill to insert the additional provisions
SWINDON GAS ORDER, 1933.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

SUNDERLAND GAS ORDER, 1933.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Sunderland Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

ISLE OF WIGHT ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1933.
Special Order in respect of the Administrative County of the Isle of Wight:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (BOROUGH OF RICHMOND (SURREY) ORDER).
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act to the Borough of Richmond (Surrey):
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (BOROUGH OF BROMLEY ORDER).
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act to the Borough of Bromley:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (DAGENHAM URBAN DISTRICT ORDER).
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act to the urban district of Dagenham:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.

WATFORD AND ST. ALBANS GAS ORDER, 1932.
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Special Order was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 15th of February last and the 2nd instant discharged, and the Special Order referred back to the Special Orders Committee to report further thereon.