Sitting of 14 February 1933

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock.

MR. SPEAKER'S ABSENCE.
The CLERK at the TABLE informed the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. SPEAKER from this day's Sitting.
Whereupon Sir DENNIS HERBERT, The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS, proceeded to the Table and, after Prayers, took the Chair as DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Standing Order.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills (Petition for additional Provision) (Standing Orders not complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill the Standing Orders have not been complied with, viz.:—
Mablethorpe and Sutton Urban District Council Bill.
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, viz.:—
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Chester and Lancaster) Bill.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Eton Joint Hospital District) Bill.
Bills to be read a second time Tomorrow.
Bridlington Corporation Bill (by Order),
Read a Second time, and committed.
Commercial Gas Bill (by Order),
Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Dewsbury and Ossett Passenger Transport Bill (by Order),
To be read a Second time To-morrow.
Gas Light and Coke Company Bill (by Order),
Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
London County Council (General Powers) Bill (by Order),
To be read a Second time upon Friday. Manchester Corporation Bill (by Order),
To be read a Second time To-morrow.
Norwich Corporation Bill (by Order),
To be read a Second time upon Monday next.
St. Helens Corporation Bill (by Order),
Southern Railway Bill (by Order),
York Corporation Transport Bill (by-Order),
To be read a Second time To-morrow.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  SWAZILAND (FINANCES).
  Mr. DAVID GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if the suggestion recommended by the High Commissioner for increasing the national income of Swaziland by the authorisation of a distinctive postage stamp to be used in the Protectorate has been approved and its adoption sanctioned, in view of the present financial stress due to the general economic depression?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): Swaziland has hitherto used Union of South Africa postage stamps. Recently, however, a separate issue for Swaziland was approved, which came into use at the beginning of January.
  Mr. GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, having regard to the fact that the estimated yield of taxation of natives in Swaziland amounts to £39,500 as compared with a total of £3,800 paid by Europeans, he will consider whether the proposed land tax, estimated to yield

  781
  £4,500 a year, represents a fair contribution by Europeans to the revenue of the country or whether some readjustment will be made?
  Mr. THOMAS: The considerations which led to the proposal for instituting a land tax in Swaziland are fully set out in the Report of the Financial and Economic Mission which visited the territory recently (see Command Paper 4114), and the matter is now under examination.
  Mr. GRENFELL: Does the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hope of transferring a larger part of the burden of the maintenance of these services to Europeans, rather than further impoverishing the natives?
  Mr. THOMAS: I have already said that the circumstances governing this matter are now under consideration. I will leave it at that.

  IRISH FREE STATE.
  Mr. LEWISasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what further measures are contemplated to secure for the Exchequer sums equivalent to the balance due from the Irish Free State and not covered by the receipts from the import duties at present being levied?
  Mr. J. H. THOMAS: The hon. Member may rest assured that the whole matter is under my constant consideration.
  Mr. LEWIS: Does that answer mean that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to increase some of the existing duties, or place duties on additional articles, or what does it mean?
  Mr. THOMAS: It means that I shall be guided by circumstances as they arise.
  Mr. THORNE: Is this not another case of using a steam-hammer to crack a nut?
  Mr. COCKS: How much has been lost to British trade by the right hon. Gentleman's tariff war?
  Mr. THOMAS: If the hon. Gentleman means that the debt owing to this country should be repudiated and no steps taken to maintain British rights, then all I say is that I never understood that to be the policy of the British people.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    IMPORT DUTIES (EMPIRE CONTENT).
    Colonel GOODMANasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any progress has been made by negotiations with the governments re presented at the Ottawa Conference to establish a greater degree of uniformity of standard of Empire content?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer I gave him to a similar Question on 13th December. An Order has now been issued by the President of the Board of Trade on 30th January, 1933, with effect from 1st April, 1933, increasing to 50 per cent. the percentage of Empire content of certain classes of goods to enable them to qualify for preference when imported into the United Kingdom.
    Colonel GOODMAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the conference recommended that uniformity should be inquired into and a decision made as soon as possible?
    Mr. THOMAS: Yes, I am aware of that, but there is a difference as to what should be uniformity. In this case the President of the Board of Trade thought that uniformity from the British point of View should be 50 per cent.

    COMMERCIAL TRAVELLERS (TAXATION, CANADA).
    Major CARVERasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether his attention has been called to the fact that British commercial travellers who wish to operate in Toronto or Montreal must pay fees amounting to approximately £75 before they can do so; and whether he will represent to the Canadian Government the desirability of reducing these fees in the interests of inter-Empire trade?
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: I understand that under certain provincial statutes in Canada the municipal authorities have power to levy taxes ranging from $100 to $500 on commercial travellers of all nationalities, including Canadians, who either sell goods from stocks brought with them or who take retail orders for subsequent deliveries; but that these taxes are not leviable on commercial travellers, who exhibit samples to wholesale traders.

    783
    The representations of the hon. and gallant Member on this subject are being considered.

    WAR MATERIAL, EXPORTS TO CHINA AND JAPAN.
    Mr. COCKSasked the President of the Board of Trade how many permits were issued in 1932 for the export of munitions; and the quantity and nature of war material exported to China and Japan during the 12 months?
    Mr. HICKSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state, for each month since February, 1932, by categories, the declared value of exports of arms, munitions, and naval and military stores, not including sporting arms and munitions, exported from the United Kingdom to Japan and China, and similarly the declared value of re-exports?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): 410 licences for the exportation of war material were

    Arms, ammunition and military and naval stores.

    Unit of Quantity.

    Exports of United Kingdom manufacture consigned during the year
    1932 to

    China (excluding Hong Kong, Macao and leased territories).

    Japan (including Formosa and Japanese leased territories in China).

    Ammunition:

    Shot and shell

    No.

    2,000

    —

    Cwt.

    l71

    —

    Metal cartridge cases, other than small arms ammunition—empty

    No.

    —

    19,000

    Cwt.

    —

    115

    Small arms ammunition—military:

    Loaded cartridges

    No.

    7,735,000

    5,361,450

    Cwt.

    3,532

    2,703

    Percussion caps

    Thousand

    —

    180

    Cwt

    —

    1

    Fuses and blasting accessories

    Cwt.

    101

    138

    Propellant powders

    Cwt.

    196

    —

    High explosives

    Cwt.

    2,788

    4,909

    Other explosives and ammunition (a)

    £

    1,463

    40,239

    Arms:

    Guns, howitzers, mortars and parts thereof

    No.

    —

    10

    Cwt.

    —

    256

    Automatic machine and quick firing guns and parts thereof

    No.

    61

    740

    Cwt.

    104

    644

    Gun mountings and carriages and parts thereof

    No.

    —

    30

    Cwt.

    —

    25

    Small arms:

    Military rifles and carbines

    No.

    202

    —

    Cwt.

    17

    —

    Miniature and cadet rifles and carbines

    No.

    20

    —

    Cwt.

    —

    —

    issued during 1932, of which 31 related to material destined for China and 41 for Japan. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table which shows the quantity of the various descriptions of arms, ammunition and military and naval stores (except sporting arms and ammunition) exported from the United Kingdom and registered during the year 1932 as consigned to China and Japan respectively. As regards the value of such goods exported in each month since February, 1932, I am having a statement prepared which I will send to the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) as soon as possible.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it would be a great step on the way to peace if these munitions could be taken out of private hands and put under Government control?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir Dennis Herbert): That does not arise out of this question.
    Following is the table:

    Arms, ammunition and military and naval stores.

    Unit of Quantity.

    Exports of United Kingdom manufacture consigned during the year
    1932 to

    China (excluding Hong Kong, Macao and leased territories).

    Japan (including Formosa and Japanese leased territories in China).

    Arms—continued.

    Small arms—continued.

    Revolvers and pistols

    No.

    580

    —

    Cwt.

    11

    —

    Parts of small arms

    Cwt.

    —

    1

    Swords, cutlasses, bayonets and arms of other sorts not firearms

    No.

    1

    —

    Cwt.

    —

    —

    Military, naval and ordnance stores and appliances, not elsewhere specified (a)

    £

    7,978

    11,160

    (a) Recorded by value only.

    Note.—The above figures are provisional.

    IMPERIAL PREFERENCES (TREATIES).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade the names of the organisations representative of trade generally which he proposes to consult before coming to any decision with regard to the abrogation of international treaties by which Great Britain and other Powers are precluded from granting preferences in certain Colonies?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: As at present advised I propose to consult the Association of British Chambers of Commerce, the Federation of British Industries, the Chamber of Shipping, the Liverpool Steamship Owners' Association and certain individual chambers of commerce and other bodies which are more particularly interested in this matter.

    SWEDEN.
    Mr. BATEYasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Swedish east coast railways have just given an order for 15,000 tons of coal to Poland; whether any negotiations have taken place with the Swedish Government as to the interchange of trade; and if it is the intention of this Government to use the tariff as a bargaining weapon with the Swedish Government?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am informed that the Swedish East Coast Railways, which are a private concern, have placed the bulk of this order in Poland, but that part of it has been placed in Germany and in this country. Commercial negotiations with the Swedish Government have
    786
    been taking place and will shortly be resumed. In these negotiations the interests of the United Kingdom coal trade have been and will continue to be borne in mind.
    Mr. BATEY: When are the Government going to commence using the tariff as a bargaining weapon? We were told when the Import Duties Act was passed that that was to be the object of the tariff. When are you going to start?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: We started some months ago.
    Mr. BATEY: Are we to understand that you have not started with Sweden?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I said some months ago.
    Mr. BATEY: With Sweden?
    Mr. DICKIE: Is the Minister aware that there are many companies on the North East Coast prepared to fill this order at prices lower than those quoted either by Poland or Germany? Here are telegrams from several of the companies concerned, and the only reason —
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member must put a question and must not make a speech.
    Mr. DICKIE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only reason why these companies are prevented from quoting at prices lower than those of Poland and Germany is the restrictions imposed under the Mines Act, 1930, with regard to the quota?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am afraid I could not answer that question without having the facts before me.
    Mr. DICKIE: But these are the facts. Is it not time that the Government recognised that the export trade in coal, so vital to the interests of this country, should be freed from the shackles of these restrictions?

    EXCHANGE DUMPING DUTIES (CANADA).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the exchange dumping duties imposed by Canada on imports from countries whose currencies have depreciated as compared with the currency of Canada are still being applied to imports from this country; if so, what is at present being taken as the average value of the pound as compared with that of the Canadian currency; and what is the present rate of this exchange dumping duty on imports from this country?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: This special duty is still being applied to imports into Canada of goods from this country of a class or kind made or produced in Canada. For Customs entries during the period 1st February to 15th February the average value of the pound has been fixed at 3.86 dollars; and the duty amounts to 54 cents for every pound value of the invoice, being the difference between this figure and the fixed rate of 4.40 dollars.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Would it not be possible to have publication of these figures as soon as they are known, regularly; and can the right hon. Gentleman say how often the rate is changed?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The rate is changed once a fortnight. I will consider whether we cannot make a public announcement immediately the figures are ascertained.
    Major LLOYD GEORGE: Is it a fact that the operation of this duty makes it possible for goods manufactured in foreign countries to be imported into Canada on terms more favourable than those accorded to goods manufactured in Great Britain?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I could not answer that question without having the facts put before me. If my hon. and gallant Friend means in comparison with goods imported from the United States, I would
    788
    point out that in the United States there is no currency depreciation, which is the reason given for this anti-dumping duty.

    AFRICAN COLONIES.
    Mr. PARKINSONasked the President of the Board of Trade the value and description in the trade of the United Kingdom of imports from, exports, domestic produce, and re-exports of merchandise to, each British colony in Africa, excluding mandated territories, which are precluded by international treaty from granting preferences, for 1929, 1930, and 1931; and the corresponding total values for such colonies in the trade of the United Kingdom?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The British colonies and protectorates in Africa (excluding mandated territories) which are precluded by international treaty from granting preferences are the Gold Coast, Nigeria, Kenya, Uganda, Nyasaland, Zanzibar and part of Northern Rhodesia. The exact particulars asked for are not available, but the hon. Member will find in Volume IV of the Annual Statement of Trade for 1931 detailed particulars of our import, export and re-export trade during 1929, 1930 and 1931 with Kenya, Uganda, Nyasaland, the Gold Coast including British Togoland, Nigeria including British Cameroons, Zanzibar and Pemba together, and Northern Rhodesia as a whole.
    Mr. ANNESLEY SOMERVILLE: Can my right hon. Friend say whether any steps are being taken, or are contemplated, to denounce the Congo Basin Treaty?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: This is by no means a simple question, as the interests are not all in the same direction. We have considered and examined it again and again.

    FOREIGN SHIPPING SUBSIDIES
    Mr. RANKINasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has taken any steps to ensure that the question of foreign shipping subsidies shall definitely be discussed at the World Economic Conference?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, Sir. Steps were taken to have this question brought forward at the recent session of the Preparatory Commission for the World Economic Conference, and it is referred

    789
    to in that section of the draft agenda prepared for the conference which deals with organisation of production and trade.

    CONTROLLED EXCHANGES.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Board have considered the possibility of making arrangements with foreign Powers having controlled exchanges so that money due from British nationals in payment for foreign goods and commodities may be retained in this country to provide for payments due to British nationals from the foreign State?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, Sir; but no such arrangement has yet been suggested which on examination has appeared likely to be beneficial to British interests.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is not this a matter to which the Board of Trade should devote their immediate attention, seeing how necessary it is to encourage trade with those countries which have controlled exchanges, and in order to give employment in this country?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes. We have had no fewer than three separate inquiries, covering South Europe, North Europe and elsewhere, and the conclusion that each of these inquiries came to was that it was not in the British interest.
    Mr. MAXTON: Will this question be considered at the World Economic Conference among other things?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: There is no reason why it should not be.

    ANGLO-JAPANESE TRADE AGREEMENT.
    Mr. HAMMERSLEYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now recommend the abrogation of the Anglo-Japanese trade agreement?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The whole question of Japanese competition is receiving the careful consideration of His Majesty's Government, but as at present advised I see no occasion for taking the action which my hon. Friend suggests.
    Mr. HAMMERSLEY: May we take it from that reply that the advice of the chambers of commerce, that the Japanese Treaty is interfering very seriously with our trade, will soon be considered and a definite reply given by
    790
    the President of the Board of Trade as to whether this advice should be acted upon?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Any views expressed by these organisations will, of course, be listened to with respect.
    Mr. HAMMERSLEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this advice was rendered many. months ago, that representations have been made continuously over a long period, and that we are always informed that they are waiting for the President of the Board of Trade to make up his mind?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The hon. Gentleman need have no anxiety on that score.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is not this increase of Japanese competition due solely to the rise in the pound relative to the yen or to the fall in the yen relative to the pound?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am afraid that at Question Time I could not go into the whole of the reasons for the severity of Japanese competition, but the wages that are paid in Japan are one or the factors that must be taken into account.

    SWEDISH AND NORWEGIAN DELEGATIONS.
    Mr. GEORGE HALLasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the position of the negotiations with the Swedish trade delegation and the Norwegian trade delegation?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The negotiations have so far been of a preliminary nature, and I am not yet in a position to make any statement.
    Mr. HALL: When can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication as to the results of the negotiations with these countries and other countries with whom the Department is negotiating?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot name any fixed date. The representatives of Sweden are returning to this country as soon as possible I understand.

    CONTINENTAL STEEL CARTEL.
    Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give any information relating to the reconstruction of the international cartel in the iron and steel industries, showing its effect upon the iron and steel trades in this country?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I understand that an agreement for the reconstitution of the Continental Steel Cartel for a period of five years has in principle been reached. The effects of the agreement and the attitude which should he adopted towards it will no doubt engage the careful consideration of the British iron and steel industry.
    Mr. HANNON: If this reconstructed cartel becomes operative, will it not have a serious effect on the iron and steel industry?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I would rather not express an opinion on that at the present time.

    STOCK EXCHANGE RESTRICTIONS.
    Mr. LEWISasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state for what reasons restrictions are still retained in the case of optional conversion issues which rank as trustee securities and involve either underwriting or an invitation to the public to subscribe new cash?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): For the present I regard this limited restriction as necessary to prevent congestion of the market.
    Mr. LEWIS: Has the Chancellor of the Exchequer any idea when he will be able to do away with these restrictions?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "congestion of the market"? Does he mean a demand for sterling from other countries?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. I do not mean that at all. I mean congestion of the market in this particular kind of securities.

    TRAVELLERS' LUGGAGE (IMPORT DUTIES).
    Mr. HUTCHISONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will consider the desirability of issuing upon request certificates to British travellers leaving this country in respect of goods contained in their personal luggage, in order to ensure that goods contained in such luggage shall not be subjected to duty on the travellers' return to Great Britain?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hore-Belisha): My hon. Friend's suggestion has been very fully considered, but I am afraid that the introduction of any such general arrangement as that contemplated in the question would not be practicable. In any event, I am satisfied that it is unnecessary under existing conditions.

  EMPIRE MIGRATION.
  Mr. PICKERINGasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what was the balance of emigration and immigration between the United Kingdom and the Dominions in 1932?
  Mr. J. H. THOMAS: The figures are not yet available for the whole of 1932, but for the year ending 30th September, 1932, there was an inward balance of migration from the Dominions to the United Kingdom of 26,034, made up as follows:

  Canada and Newfoundland

  17,644

  Australia

  3,847

  New Zealand

  1,641

  British South Africa

  2,902

  Mr. MAXTON: What is wrong with these Colonies that people will not stay in them?
  Mr. THOMAS: I would rather put it the other way. If we want to find a real solution for our unemployment problem the best evidence yet forthcoming is supplied by these figures, to show that we ought to try to do all we can to cement and develop the Empire. That is the useful solution.
  Mr. MAXTON: A very good answer, but it has nothing to do with the question.
  Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: What is the position as regards Southern Ireland'! Is not it also a Dominion?
  Mr. THOMAS: I should want notice of that question.

  PARENT COAL CARBONISATION COMPANY.
  Sir JOSEPH LAMBasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Official Receiver has yet placed the result of his investigations into the circumstances surrounding the promotion

  793
  and conduct of the Parent Coal Carbonisation Company before the Public Prosecutor; and do his investigations deal with that company's relations with the Campbeltown Light Railway, Maisel's Petroleum Trust Company, or the Franco-British Oil Company?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: The Official Receiver has not yet completed his investigations into the affairs of this company. These investigations include inquiry into all matters relevant to the promotion of the company and the conduct of its business.
  Sir J. LAMB: Can my right hon. Friend give me any idea as to when it is likely that this report will be received?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: No. I am afraid I do not know.

  NAVIGABLE WATERS (OIL POLLUTION).
  Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the recent increase of casualties caused among sea-birds on the South Coast, and especially the Isle of Wight, as the result of oil fuel floating on the sea; whether he will cause an investigation to be made into the source of this oil; and whether, in any event, he will draw the attention of the mercantile marine and the Admiralty to the matter with a view to its prevention?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes, Sir. Inquiries as to the source of the oil have so far been unsuccessful but are being continued, and I am in communication with the Admiralty and with the Chamber of Shipping on the subject.
  Mr. D. GRENFELL: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to a simple and inexpensive apparatus for effectively separating the oil discharged into the sea?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have heard of several instruments of this kind. The trouble is not that there is no means of separating the oil, but that the instruments are not always used.
  Mr. GRENFELL: Has the right hon. Gentleman had his attention called to an invention pretty well known in the country now which apparently does this very effectively?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: There is no trouble about that. The instruments can be produced, but they are not used.
  Major COLFOX: Is it not possible to get some general international arrangement whereby the shipping of all countries is governed by the same rules for discharging this oil many miles out at sea?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I should like to have notice of that question. It has been the subject of communications with other Powers again and again.

  MERCANTILE MARINE (SAFETY REGULATIONS).
  Captain P. MACDONALDasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now satisfied that all foreign vessels trading in British waters are conforming to the same conditions with regard to safety and load-line regulations as are imposed upon British vessels by his Department?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Foreign vessels in British waters have certificates under the International Safety and Load-Line Conventions respectively or comply with the British regulations or with foreign regulations recognised here as equivalent to those of this country.
  Captain MACDONALD: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that they do comply?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes. Watch is kept by our surveyors.

  ITALY (SHIPPING DISCRIMINATION).
  Sir CHARLES CAYZERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Italian Government has recently refused permission to an Italian business man to join a British ship at Marseilles for which he had booked accommodation for a journey to India and China, and only allowed him to proceed when his passage had peen transferred to an Italian vessel; and whether, failing a satisfactory understanding with the Italian Government, the British Government will consider corresponding action?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot at present add anything to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India to the hon. Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) yesterday.
  Sir C. CAYZER: Is it not a fact that British officials are constantly proceeding to and from India in Italian vessels, and that their fares are paid by the British and Indian Governments, and will my right hon. Friend assure the House that, failing a satisfactory agreement with the Italian Government on this matter, this practice will be brought to an end?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: That question ought to be addressed to the Secretary of State for India.

  AGRICULTURE.

    SCOTLAND.
    Mr. KIRKWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has any estimate of the number of agricultural workers unemployed in Scotland at present?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): I regret that I am unable to give such an estimate; but I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the Monthly Agricultural Report of the Department of Agriculture for Scotland for January, 1933, which contains some figures and observations on this subject.
    Mr. BOOTHBYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state what action he proposes to take to combat the prevailing depression in Scottish agriculture?
    Mr. SKELTON: As my hon. Friend is aware, important steps have been taken with the object of making farming in Scotland more profitable. I am not at present in a position to make a statement regarding further action to be taken, but my hon. Friend may be assured that the Government is giving constant attention to the problems of the agricultural industry and to the possibility of further measures in its behalf.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what steps are being
    796
    taken by the Government to make agriculture profitable?
    Mr. SKELTON: No, Sir, I will not. The House knows them very well.
    Mr. BOOTHBY: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he considers farming is profitable at the present time?
    Mr. SKELTON: I do not propose, even with your permission, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to enter upon an agricultural Debate at Question time.

    OATS (IMPORTS).
    Mr. BOOTHBYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he proposes to take any steps to check the importation of subsidised foreign oats?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am not aware that any subsidised foreign oats are being imported into this country.
    Mr. BOOTHBY: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that if these subsidised oats continue to be imported, the growers of oats in Scotland will be completely ruined?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman did not hear my answer, which was that I was not aware that any subsidised oats were being imported.
    Mr. BOOTHBY: They are being imported.
    Sir J. LAMB: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that large quantities have been imported into this country, and will he take steps to see that it is not done?
    Mr. SCRYMGEOUR-WEDDER-BURNasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the Government has any statistics to show the existence and extent of the dumping of foreign oats, oatmeal, and barley in Scotland; and, if so, whether he can state the facts?
    Mr. SKELTON: I regret that I have not yet been able to obtain statistics of imports into Scotland of these commodities for a later period than 1931, but with my hon. Friend's permission I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT figures giving particulars of imports into the United Kingdom for 1931 and 1932, together with the figures for Scotland for 1931.
    Major COLFOX: When the hon. Gentleman has these figures at his disposal, will he hand them over to the President of the Board of Trade, who says that he knows nothing about them?
    Mr. BOOTHBY: Why is my hon. Friend unable to get these important figures for a later date than 1931; and,

    Figures showing Imports of Oats, Oat Products and Barley into the United Kingdom, 1931 and 1932.

    1. Oats.

    Country of Origin.

    1931.

    1932.

    Quantity.

    Value.

    Quantity.

    Value.

    Cwts.

    £

    Cwts.

    £

    Soviet Union (Russia)

    …

    …

    …

    2,782,823

    629,926

    112,921

    34,297

    Canada

    …

    …

    …

    1,295,121

    326,475

    2,476,591

    758,903

    Germany

    …

    …

    …

    26,398

    5,957

    86,943

    24,427

    Argentine Republic

    …

    …

    …

    3,664,553

    701,787

    3,155,658

    824,223

    Irish Free State

    …

    …

    …

    134,239

    38,608

    47,453

    16,848

    Other Countries

    …

    …

    …

    850,060

    221,014

    588,461

    176,736

    Total

    …

    …

    …

    8,753,194

    1,923,767

    6,468,027

    1,835,434

    Total into Scotland

    …

    …

    …

    673,191

    142,987

    not available.

    as the President of the Board of Trade seems to know him very well, is there no liaison between the Board of Trade and the Scottish Office?
    Mr. SKELTON: The figures for 1932 will not be published until a later period
    Following are the figures:
    Mr. BOOTHBYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to institute a quota system for oats similar to the wheat quota system, in order that Scottish farmers may receive for their oats a price sufficient to cover the cost of production?
    Mr. SKELTON: My right hon. Friend is carefully examining the position with regard to oats and oat products, but on the information at present before him as to the home production and the imports of oats respectively it appears to him that the institution of a quota system on the lines of the wheat quota system would not be practicable.
    Mr. BOOTHBY: Can the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that some action will be taken with regard to oats particularly in the near future?
    Mr. SKELTON: My hon. Friend knows very well that it is not my function to give such an assurance, but I can assure him that the question of oats has been most fully and carefully considered in view of the great importance of that cereal to Scottish farming.

    The numbers of permits granted to male workers by Agricultural Wages Committees under Section 2 (3) of the Agricultural Wages Act, 1924, in operation on 30th September, 1932, classified according to the grounds in respect of which the applications for permits had been made, were as follows:

    Agricultural Wages Committee Area

    Number of permits granted.

    On account of infirmity due to age or to any other cause.

    On account of mental deficiency or physical injury.

    Total.

    Beds and Hunts

    …

    143

    41

    184

    Berks

    …

    174

    40

    214

    Bucks

    …

    85

    37

    122

    Cambs and Isle of Ely

    …

    125

    29

    154

    Cheshire

    …

    8

    69

    77

    Cornwall

    …

    65

    49

    114

    Cumberland and Westmorland

    …

    9

    53

    62

    Derby

    …

    87

    51

    138

    Devon

    …

    182

    159

    341

    Dorset

    …

    216

    66

    282

    Durham

    …

    18

    43

    61

    Essex

    …

    273

    59

    332

    Gloucester

    …

    218

    95

    313

    Hants and Isle of Wight

    …

    198

    65

    263

    Hereford

    …

    438

    118

    556

    Herts

    …

    129

    33

    162

    Kent

    …

    505

    107

    612

    Lanes

    …

    14

    93

    107

    Mr. PERKINS: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that nobody eats oats except Scotsmen and asses—
    Mr. KIRK WOOD: And the hon. Member is one of the asses.
    Mr. PERKINS: —and will he therefore prohibit the importation of foreign oats into Scotland?

    MINIMUM WAGES (EXEMPTIONS).
    Major CARVERasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state, by counties, the number of cases in which the different agricultural wages committees have exercised their powers of granting a permit exempting the employment of a worker from payment at the minimum rate of wages fixed under the Act in cases where they are satisfied that the worker is so affected by any infirmity due to age or to any other cause that he is incapable of earning the minimum rate?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Major Elliot): As the answer involves a table of figures, I propose to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:

    Agricultural Wages Committee Area.

    Number of permits granted.

    On account of infirmity due to age or to any other cause.

    On account of mental deficiency or physical injury.

    Total.

    Leicester and Rutland

    …

    86

    72

    158

    Lincs (Holland)

    …

    96

    111

    207

    Lincs (Kesteven and Lindsey)

    …

    256

    374

    630

    Middlesex

    …

    24

    8

    32

    Monmouth

    …

    30

    17

    47

    Norfolk

    …

    221

    58

    279

    Northants

    …

    203

    51

    254

    Northumberland

    …

    12

    30

    42

    Nottinghamshire

    …

    105

    39

    144

    Oxfordshire

    …

    143

    59

    202

    Salop

    …

    342

    145

    487

    Somerset

    …

    316

    137

    453

    Staffordshire

    …

    116

    129

    245

    Suffolk

    …

    383

    54

    437

    Surrey

    …

    72

    26

    98

    Sussex

    …

    246

    94

    340

    Warwickshire

    …

    202

    30

    232

    Wiltshire

    …

    230

    92

    322

    Worcestershire

    …

    354

    102

    456

    Yorks, E. Riding

    …

    33

    27

    60

    Yorks, N. Riding

    …

    105

    48

    153

    Yorks, W. Riding

    …

    131

    43

    174

    Anglesey and Caernarvon

    …

    17

    15

    32

    Carmarthen

    …

    70

    33

    103

    Denbigh and Flint

    …

    46

    20

    66

    Glamorgan

    …

    18

    5

    23

    Merioneth and Mont

    …

    64

    36

    100

    Pembs and Cardigan

    …

    83

    30

    113

    Radnor and Brecon

    …

    25

    15

    40

    Totals

    …

    6,916

    3,107

    10,023

    SUGAR-BEET INDUSTRY.
    Mr. CAMPBELLasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the amount of differential duty to date granted to the sugar refineries since 1928; and how this figure compares with the cost of maintaining the sugar-beet industry during the same period?
    Major ELLIOT: The approximate amount of the difference between the amount of duty actually charged on sugar delivered for refining in refineries from 25th April, 1928, to 31st December, 1932, and the amount which would have been paid on the same quantities had duty been charged at the basic rate appropriate to imported sugar exceeding 98° polarisation, was £18,835,000. The amount of assistance given to the beet-sugar industry during the period 1st April, 1928, to 31st December, 1932, was approxi-
    802
    mately £22,379,000, comprising £17,061,000 direct subsidy paid under the British Sugar (Subsidy) Act, 1925—including the sum of £183,300 advanced under the British Sugar (Assistance) Act, 1931—and £5,318,000 representing the difference between the amount of duty collected on home-grown sugar calculated at the appropriate Excise rate and the amount which would have been paid had duty been charged at the basic rate for imported unrefined sugar.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    STRENGTH.
    Brigadier-General NATIONasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office the present shortage of all ranks in the Regular Army at home and in the Territorial Army?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Duff Cooper): The deficiencies on 1st February were as follow:—Regular Army 5,400 and Territorial Army 44,000.
    Brigadier-General NATION: In view of the fact that the deficiency is continually increasing, what steps is the hon. Gentleman taking to remedy it?
    Mr. COOPER: The deficiency in the Regular Army does not continue to increase, but continues to decrease, and these figures show a deficiency only in regard to establishment and not in regard to normal figures. So far as the Regular Army is concerned, there is no ground for any anxiety with regard to the figures. As to the Territorial Army, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to a question last week stating the special steps which we were taking for recruiting.
    Brigadier-General NATION: Will the hon. Gentleman say what those steps are?
    Mr. COOPER: The large deficiency is probably due, we believe, to the fact that camps did not take place last year.

    TERRITORIAL CAMPS.
    Mr. MAXTONasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the £900,000 to be provided by the Treasury for Territorial camps this year will cover all the outlays involved or if further charges will fall to be borne by individual regiments and Territorial associations?
    Mr. COOPER: The sum to be provided in Army Estimates, approximately £900,000, covers all the outlays involved in the annual camps.
    Mr. MAXTON: How many men does the hon. Gentleman expect will receive training for that sum of money?
    Mr. COOPER: I cannot say without notice.

  SCOTLAND.

    MILK MARKETING SCHEME, SCOTLAND.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has now considered the report of the inquiry into the proposed milk marketing scheme for Scotland; and what decision he has reached thereon?
    Mr. SKELTON: My right hon. Friend has the report under consideration, but I am not yet in a position to make any statement.

    PROSECUTIONS.
    Mr. McGOVERNasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what were the reasons for dropping the prosecution of Colonel Frederick Watkins, Blair Atholl, Lenzie, who was arrested and charged with shoplifting from Marks and Spencers Stores on 22nd December, 1932?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Mr. Normand): This officer was charged with shoplifting from the stores of F. W. Woolworth, Limited, Glasgow. The Lord Advocate ordered no further proceedings, in view of the accused's previous medical history, and a medical specialist's report as to his mental condition. The accused is now under treatment in a home.
    Mr. McGOVERN: May I inquire if it is a fact that the Lord Advocate instructed the Edinburgh agent of this man to secure such a certificate, informing him that on the production of that he would order that no further steps should be taken in this case; and is this man now paymaster in the Regular Army in the Scottish command at Edinburgh?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND: With regard to the first part of the supplementary question, I think the position is that the only connection that the Lord Advocate had with the doctor who gave the certificate was that this doctor is the usual doctor employed by the Crown in cases where the mental condition of accused persons is in question. I am unable to answer the second part of the question.
    Mr. McGOVERN: Should not the medical evidence for and against the medical condition of this man have been produced in the court for the court to decide whether he was mentally stable or not?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND: No; the course which was taken in this case was perfectly normal. In minor cases of this kind it is within the discretion of the prosecutor to have the investigation made for himself and to take what action he thinks proper to him.
    Mr. McGOVERNasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the reasons

    805
    for the failure to proceed with the prosecution of Mrs. Mary McBeth or Semple, of 17, Calderwood Road, Newlands, Glasgow, who was charged with shoplifting from Marks and Spencers, Limited, on 8th December, 1932; whether he is aware that she had been charged on two previous occasions on 19th January, 1914, from Simpson and Sons Stores, of 1, Jamaica Street, Glasgow, and in November, 1924; and what the sentence was on each occasion?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND: It is not the fact that the prosecution against the woman referred to did not proceed to trial. The case was in fact tried on 1st February, 1933, before the stipendiary magistrate, Glasgow, who, in view of medical evidence upon the accused's mental condition, found her not guilty. She had previously been charged with similar offences. In February, 1914, she was put on probation for six months, and in November, 1924, she was ordered to find caution for her good behaviour, which was done.
    Mr. McGOVERN: Is it not a fact that, arising out of the first case, medical certificates were produced on behalf of this woman, and that the stipendiary had a difficulty in not accepting what had previously been accepted by the Lord Advocate; was this woman charged in 1914 with stealing an article valued at £43, and did she plead on any of the two previous occasions that there was anything wrong with her mind, and did the police doctor certify her as being absolutely sane?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND: In answer to the first part of the supplementary question, the stipendiary magistrate heard the evidence, and did not act upon any certificates. With regard to the second part, I am unable to say what was the value of the article the woman was accused of stealing in 1914. I do not know whether she pleaded insanity or mental weakness on either of the previous occasions.
    Mr. HANNON: Is it not a great pity that Parliamentary time should be wasted on questions of this kind?
    Mr. MAXTON: May I ask the Solicitor-General for Scotland if we may advise our constituents that under the present
    806
    judicial regime in Scotland a medical certificate will always be taken as an adequate excuse for theft?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND: No, Sir.
    Mr. McGOVERN: I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment on the return of the Lord Advocate from his illness, as there is a feeling, even in police circles in Scotland, that the law was rigged in these cases.

    MR. AND MRS. CAMPBELL, TOLLCROSS.
    Mr. McGOVERNasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will inquire into and state the reasons for the removal by the Glasgow Corporation health department of Mr. and Mrs. Campbell, 1047, Tollcross Road, Tollcross, Glasgow, from their home on 6th and 8th September, 1932, to the mental wards at Stobhill and Duke Street Hospitals, respectively, and the removal of their son to Stobhill Hospital; if he is aware that force was threatened to remove them if they did not go quietly; that they have now been sent back home; the nature of the medical reports on each person; and if he will see that adequate apology and compensation is given to these persons?
    Mr. SKELTON: I have received a statement of the facts in regard to the allegations contained in this question from the Glasgow Corporation, and I am sending it to the hon. Member for his information. I may add with regard to the last part of the question that my right hon. Friend has no jurisdiction in the matter.
    Mr. McGOVERN: Can the Under-Secretary inform me whether it is the case that this man and woman were taken to the mental wards because they complained of obnoxious fumes in their house, and that since they were discharged the gas department has sent a man and discovered three serious gas escapes in the house? Further, is he aware that the son of these people was placed in a bed with another boy for over a week in a hospital in Glasgow?
    Mr. SKELTON: I would prefer that the hon. Gentleman should read the report which I am forwarding to him, and, if he then thinks further questions are necessary, I shall he glad to answer them.
    Mr. McGOVERN: In order to protect myself, I give notice that I will raise this question again.

    PUBLIC RBCOBDS.
    Mr. GUYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has considered the report from the Keeper of the Registers and Records on the condition of the public records in the Register House; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
    Lord SCONEasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now in a position to make a statement on the condition of the Scottish records?
    Mr. SKELTON: My right hon. Friend has considered the report by the Keeper of the Registers and Records of Scotland made after a preliminary survey of certain unarranged records in the basement of the Register House, to which I understand that the questions relate. It is evident that some of these records may be of considerable value and that their condition requires that an early start should be made with the task of renovating and classifying them. This work can only be undertaken gradually, and if it is to be satisfactorily done will require expert attention fro a number of years to come. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that some provision will have to be made for this purpose in the immediate future, and he is now in consultation with the Treasury as to details.
    Mr. GUY: Is my hon. Friend aware that, as regards many of these records, there is no proper system of indexing, and that in consequence they are for all practical purposes inaccessible?
    Mr. SKELTON: That is one of the matters which comes under the phrase, "the task of classifying."

    UNEMPLOYED MINERS (ALLOTMENTS)
    Captain ARCHIBALD RAMSAYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether any steps have been taken to find occupation on the land for unemployed miners in the industrial belt in Scotland?
    Mr. SKELTON: I must apologise for the length of this answer, but it is of some importance in view of the interest taken on this subject.
    In the latter part of last year my right hon. Friend instructed the Department of
    808
    Agriculture for Scotland to find out the extent of the demand among unemployed miners and others for plots of half to one acre of land or thereabouts to be cultivated in the vicinity of their homes. An experimental and limited scheme of this nature has now been started by the Department at the cost of the Agriculture (Scotland) Fund in eight centres in Mid and West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Dumbartonshire, Ayrshire and Fife, to demonstrate the possibility of meeting the requirements of men who desire plots of land. In some of these centres the men are already on the ground. If other men desire a plot of land in these areas and apply at once to the Department, they will do their best to meet requirements so far as the range of the experiment permits.
    It is proposed to supply the necessary seeds, fertilisers and implements and to recover the cost by weekly instalments after the end of the first working season. Similarly a charge for rent will be made, but not for the first season of occupancy.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: May I ask whether these ex-miners will not be debarred from receiving unemployment benefit during the time that they are cultivating these holdings?
    Mr. SKELTON: In answer to that question, I may say that my right hon. Friend and I are generally satisfied that that matter is in a satisfactory condition. If the hon. Member desires further information, I would recommend him to put a question to the Minister of Labour.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the hon. Gentleman give the House an idea of the size of the holdings and the security of tenure?
    Mr. SKELTON: The size I have mentioned. Generally, they are between half-an-acre and an acre in size.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: And the security of tenure?
    Mr. SKELTON: It is not so much a question of security of tenure as of how long these men will be unemployed to cultivate the holdings. In some cases the Department has bought the land, and in other cases has leased land over a period of years, but I could not give the periods without notice.

    SELF-GOVERNMENT
    Mr. DUNCAN GRAHAMasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of a communication from the Convention of the Royal Burghs of Scotland with respect to the appointment of a Royal Commission to consider the question of Scottish self-government, and in view of the promise to the Scottish Labour Members of Parliament in 1929 that he would set up such a commission within two years from that date, he will now accede to the request made by the Convention of Royal Burghs to appoint a commission to inquire into the whole question of the relationship between the two countries?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): I am not satisfied that in view of the changed circumstances there is such a general desire in Scotland for an inquiry of this nature as would justify the setting up of a Royal Commission.
    Mr. GRAHAM: Is the Prime Minister not aware that the Convention of the Royal Burghs is a fully representative body, and that they have asked that a Royal Commission should be set up to inquire into the question, and in view of the fact that the Prime Minister himself gave a promise to the Scottish Members of Parliament will he not set up such an inquiry?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have to answer the question that my hon. Friend put, and the reply is that things have moved a little beyond the stage, we think, where an inquiry of this specific character by a Royal Commission would be necessary.
    Mr. GRAHAM: What does the Prime Minister mean by "things having moved" along a certain line?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The point must be perfectly apparent. The movement of Scottish opinion regarding what is called Scottish Home Rule has gone very much further than it was two or three years ago.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Are we to understand now that the Prime Minister has again switched round to his old opinion that Scotland ought to get Home Rule?
    Mr. McGOVERN: Did the Prime Minister fail to note that at the recent by-election in East Fife every candidate was pledged to Home Rule for Scotland?

    LANARK COUNTY COUNCIL (LOAN INTEREST).
    Mr. D. GRAHAMasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury why objection was taken to the county council of Lanark raising a loan at 3 per cent, interest?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. No objection so far as I am aware has been taken by any Government Department to the Lanarkshire County Council's borrowing money at 3 per cent. When the council asked that 3 per cent. should be fixed as the rate applicable to their borrowings by Local Housing Bonds, the Treasury had no hesitation in acceding to their request.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Then there is no truth in the statement that is made in Scotland at the moment that the Government did turn down the Lanark County Council loan because they had got money at 3 per cent. interest?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: No, Sir; there is no foundation for that statement.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Is it not the case that the Treasury refused to permit the Lanark County Council to obtain money at 3 per cent. unless and until they had given their approval?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I have answered the question, and I think I have made the circumstances perfectly plain.

    AFFORESTATION.
    Mr. KIRKWOODasked the hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, what area of land formerly used for agricultural purposes in Scotland has been acquired by the Forestry Commission: what amount thereof has been planted, remains in hand to be planted, or is unsuitable for planting, respectively; what area remains under tenants and what area is stocked and farmed direct by the Commission; what is the number of sheep stock held by the Commission and the number of servants employed in connection with farming operations; what is the fall in value of such sheep stock during the last 12 months of accounting; whether losses incurred on farming transactions are debited to the fund set apart for planting operations; and under what statutory powers do the Forestry Commission engage in agriculture?
    Colonel Sir GEORGE COURTHOPE (Forestry Commissioner): As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The total area acquired by the Forestry Commission in Scotland at 30th September last was 376,792 acres, of which 174,611 were plantable. Deer forests accounted for 174,258 acres, of which 62,379 were plantable. The balance (202,534 acres, including 112,232 plantable acres), with the exception of sand dunes, has been used for grazing and for sylvi-cultural purposes. Of the 202,534 acres, 43,471 have been planted, 68,761 remain to be planted, and 90,302—mainly hill tops at high elevations—are unsuitable for planting. An area of 130,218 acres remains under tenants, and 28,845 acres are stocked and farmed by the Commission. The number of sheep stock held by the Commission at 30th September, 1932, was 10,636. The number of servants employed in connection with farming operations was 22. The value of the stocks in the Commission's hands at 30th September last was estimated to be £420 less than that of stocks in hand at 30th September, 1931. Losses incurred on farming transactions are borne by the Forestry Fund. The. Commission engage in agriculture only where necessary and under the powers conferred on them by the. Forestry Act of 1919.
    Mr. KIRKWOODasked the hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners. what area of land occupied by small landholders in the County of Argyll has been acquired by the Forestry Commission; what area of such lands is included in planting schemes; what is the number of landholders thereon; and under what authority the Commission is empowered to acquire and hold lands let to small landholders?
    Sir G. COURTHOPE: The area of land acquired for purposes in connection with afforestation by the Forestry Commission in Argyllshire in the occupation of small landholders is approximately 1,770 acres. No part of this area is included in planting schemes. The number of small landholders thereon is 23. On other parts of the Commission's properties in Argyllshire the Commission have settled 83
    812
    forest worker holders. The Commissioners' powers are derived from the Forestry Act, 1919, Section 2 (3) (a).

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (PROCEDURE).
  Lord EUSTACE PERCYasked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to recommend action by the House on the report of the Select Committee on Procedure, or, if not, whether he can give time for a Debate on the subject?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer my right hon. and Noble Friend to the reply which I gave on the 8th February in reply to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander).
  Lord E. PERCY: As I think the Prime Minister's reply to that earlier question indicated that he had no immediate intention of making proposals to the House, will he consider the second part of my question, that is, as to the desirability of giving an opportunity for a Debate in this House?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I should be very glad to provide an opportunity for a Debate in the ordinary way, but I am sure that my right hon. Friend will see that a Debate would not be of much use unless the Government had considered the matter very fully.
  Lord E. PERCY: Is the Prime Minister aware that there is considerable feeling in this House that the report of the Select Committee is wholly inadequate, and does he not think it desirable that the Government should know the views of the House before they finally consider the question?
  The PRIME MINISTER: It is because we feel the report is somewhat inadequate that we are very anxious to give some consideration to the matter before it comes before the House.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the more conservative section of this House prefers that its procedure should remain as it is?

  COMMITTEE OF IMPERIAL DEFENCE.
  Dr. JOHN WILLIAMSasked the Prime Minister if he will give the names

  813
  of the members of the Committee of Imperial Defence; the number of times the committee met last year; the date of the last meeting; and the total emoluments of the members of the forces of the Crown who are attached to the committee?
  The PRIME MINISTER: In constitutional theory the Committee of Imperial Defence consists of the Prime Minister and such persons as he chooses to ask to assist in the committee's deliberations. At the present time, under my instructions, the following are associated with the work of the main committee:—
  The Lord President of the Council, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Secretaries of State for Foreign Affairs, Dominion Affairs, the Colonies, India, War and Air, the First Lord of the Admiralty, the Chiefs of Staff of the three Defence Services, and the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury as the head of the Civil Service. In addition, a considerable number of Ministers, as well as experts outside the Government, are associated with sub-committees. Taking the whole organisation, the number of meetings in 1932 was 156. The last meeting—of an important sub-committee—took place this morning.
  It has always been found convenient to transact most of the business at subcommittees, and this procedure was especially necessary in 1932 owing to the absence at Geneva, Lausanne and Ottawa of Ministers usually summoned to attend the Committee. In consequence, there were only three formal meetings of the main Committee. In reply to the last part of the question, if the hon. Member is referring to the emoluments of the three chiefs of staff, I would refer him to the Estimates presented to Parliament of their respective Departments. As in the case of all other persons associated with the work of the Committee, they do not receive any extra emoluments in respect of their services at the Committee of Imperial Defence.
  Captain P. MACDONALD: Are the Dominion Governments represented on the Committee of Imperial Defence?
  The PRIME MINISTER: They are represented by invitation, just as other interests are represented.

  GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES (DISCUSSIONS)
  Mr. HANNONasked the Prime Minister if he can make a statement on the personnel of the delegation to the United States of America for the conduct of negotiations relating to the settlement of the American Debt question?
  The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir, as I said yesterday, I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
  Mr. MAXTON: Having regard to the delicate nature of this matter, would it not have been more seemly if the hon. Member had not put that question on the Paper?

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    BEER DUTY.
    Mr. THOMAS COOKasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount received in Beer Duty during the latest convenient 12 months, and the amount received during the 12 months previous to the imposition of the increased tax?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The amounts of Beer Duty (Customs and Excise) received during the 12 months ended 31st December, 1932, and the 12 months ended 31st August, 1931, were as follow:

    £

    12 months ended 31st August, 1931

    73,864,000

    12 months ended 31st December, 1932

    76,250,000

    Viscountess ASTOR: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the brewery profits still allow dividends of from 5 to 50 per cent.?

    LAND VALUE TAX.
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the uncertainty now existing, the Government proposes to repeal the land tax duties imposed by the Finance Act, 1931?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer my right hon. Friend to the answer given on the 9th February to the hon. and gallant Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Clifton Brown).
    Mr. LAMBERT: Is it not time that the Government made up their mind as

    815
    to whether private owners developing their property should be subjected to this charge? Can we have a definite statement that the Government intend to deal with. this question?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir; I do not think the time has come for that.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Have not all the obstacles to the repeal of these measures now been removed from the Cabinet?

    INCOME TAX (RUSSIAN TRADE DELEGATION).
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Income Tax is paid in Great Britain on the profits or commissions made by the Russian Soviet trade delegation in Great Britain?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Any profits derived by the Russian trade delegation from trade carried on by it in the United Kingdom would, under the general principles of international law, be exempt from United Kingdom Income Tax in the same way as trading profits similarly arising to any other foreign Government.
    Sir W, DAVISON: Having regard to the fact that this is quite a unique method of carrying on trade, will the right hon. Gentleman see that similar facilities are given to all trade between this country and Russia, if the Russian trade in this country is to be exempt from payment of Income Tax?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think that comparable profits would be treated in exactly the same way if they arose out of transactions by this Government in Russia.
    Sir W. DAVISON: No. Does not my right hon. Friend realise that the Russian Government have a trading organisation in this country, and does he not think it unfair to traders in this country that that trading organisation should not be subjected to the same disabilities in regard to taxation as our traders have to suffer?

  DEFENCE SERVICES (MEDICAL AND DENTAL BRANCHES).
  Mr. LIDDALLasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury when the Com-
  816
  mittee on Medical and Dental Branches of the Defence Services, appointed 19th May, 1931, will present its report?
  Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am informed by the chairman that this inquiry has now reached the stage at which the committee may shortly consider a report.

  INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE.
  Sir BASIL PETOasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he can say when the committee appointed to inquire into industrial assurance is expected to report; and whether the report will be made public?
  Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I would refer ray hon. Friend to the reply which I gave yesterday to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for Westhoughton.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKEasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will have inquiry made into the case of Mr. F. W. Hill, formerly No. 375,307, Royal Army Service Corps, who was wounded in action while holding the substantive rank of corporal, but who later reverted to private because of the effects of his wounds; and whether he will arrange for the pension in issue to Mr. Hill to be paid at corporal's rate instead of private's rate?
  The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): Mr. Hill is correctly paid at the rate appropriate to his rank on demobilisation, and is not entitled to the benefit of a higher rank from which he reverted at his own request, not because of his wounds, but because he wished to obtain a transfer to the Army Service Corps 2½ years after he was wounded.
  Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKEasked the Minister of Pensions if his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. E. A. O. Rogers, of Chichester (No. 11/F/259,248), who has been refused treatment allowances on the ground that he has not followed any remunerative employment since October, 1928, although in October, 1928, he was in employment; that until April, 1929, his firm paid him £6 per week; that he has not been able

  817
  to remain in employment because he has been under treatment on account of his disability since that date; that his employers are willing to take him back as soon as he is fit again and whether he will grant him treatment allowance?
  Major TRYON: I have inquired into the facts of this case, but I regret that the man is not eligible for the special allowances referred to. These, as my hon. Friend will be aware, are not a form of sickness benefit payable whenever a, pensioner is in hospital, but are designed to meet the temporary loss of his normal earnings suffered by a pensioner in consequence of undergoing a course of remedial treatment which, for a time, necessitates his absence from his usual occupation. The case referred to is no longer of this character. Mr. Rogers' condition unhappily deteriorated some years ago, and his pension has in fact been increased during the past three years to 100 per cent. on the ground that he has become totally incapacitated by his War disability, as is shown by the fact that he has not been able to work since 1928. He thus draws a sum of £2 4s. 3d. a week, whether or not he receives treatment in any form. During his stay in sanatorium the entire amount is drawn by his family, the patient himself being maintained free of cost.
  Mr. LAWSON: Is it not the case that some decision has been arrived at which has affected the allowances of unemployed ex-soldiers receiving treatment?
  Major TRYON: I am glad that the hon. Member has asked that question, because the practice is exactly the same as that of the late Government, and the answer which I gave in the House the other day repeated the words of the Minister of Pensions in the late Government. There is no foundation for any suggestion that there has been any change whatever.
  Mr. LAWSON: Is not the Minister now aware that there has been considerable dissatisfaction throughout the Ministry's hospitals on the part of unemployed ex-soldiers in the hospitals who have for-
  818
  merly received their allowances and are now refused them?
  Major TRYON: No, Sir; it is not the case that there is any general dissatisaction on this question, nor that there has been any change of practice whatever. Both I and my predecessor have been questioned on the matter, and we have followed the same policy and have given the same answer.
  Mr. McGOVERN: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman think that it is good practice to follow slavishly the same procedure as the Labour Government?
  Major TRYON: The policy of the Ministry has been continuous for many years past, under successive Ministers and successive types of Government.

  FUEL RESEARCH BOARD.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Lord President of the Council what changes were made in the work of the Fuel Research Board subsequent to the general election of 1931; what reduction in contemplated expenditure was thereby effected; and what was the actual expenditure on fuel research in 1928–29, 1929–30, 1930–31 and 1931–32, and the estimated expenditure for1932–33?
  The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Mr. Baldwin): As the reply to this Question contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the reply.
  No change has been made in the general policy governing the work of the Fuel Research Board since the general election of 1931. The schemes described by the then Secretary for Mines on the 5th May, 1931, have proceeded, with slight modification, as stated by me in answer to a question on the 23rd September, 1931. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
  The actual expenditure on fuel research is shown in the following table:

  Fuel Research Board.

  —

  Net Expenditure from Scientific and Industrial Research Vote.

  Allied Services (H.M. Office of Works, Rates, Postage).

  Total.

  £

  £

  £

  1928–29

  …

  77,877

  10,363

  88,240

  1929–30

  …

  84,706

  7,780

  92,486

  1930–31

  …

  87,412

  5,404

  92,816

  1931–32

  …

  82,706

  9,752

  92,458

  1932–33 (estimated)

  …

  88,886

  7,712

  96,598

  NORTHERN IRELAND (RAILWAY DISPUTE).
  Mr. HANNONasked the Minister of Labour if he has any information as to the present situation of the railway strike in Northern Ireland; and, having regard to the dislocation of trade between Great Britain and Ireland, what steps are being taken to effect a settlement of the dispute?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. R. S. Hudson): As this dispute is a matter within the jurisdiction of the authorities in Northern Ireland, I am not in a position to make any statement on the situation.

  SECONDARY SCHOOL FEES.
  Miss CAZALETasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education how many local education authorities have submitted their revised schemes for secondary school fees; and how many of these schemes have been approved by the Board?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Ramsbotham): Proposals in regard to fees and special places have been received from 131 out of the 146 local education authorities for higher education in England and Wales. Of these, 51 have been finally approved by the Board.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the Prime Minister what business, if any, he proposes to take to-night, other than the London Passenger Transport Bill?
The PRIME MINISTER: In the event of the Third Reading of the London Passenger Transport Bill being obtained before Eleven o'Clock, it is proposed to proceed with the Committee stage of the Austrian Loan (Guarantee) Bill. The Eleven o'Clock Rule is not being suspended.

COTTON INDUSTRY.
Sir GERALD HURST: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend and prolong the duration of the Cotton Industry Act, 1923."
3.46 p.m.
The object of this Bill is two-fold. In the first place, it is to prolong the duration of the existing Cotton Industry Act, which would otherwise expire on the 18th July. It seeks to extend it for a further period of five years. The second object is to alter the amount of the levy. When the Cotton Industry Act was first introduced in 1923, the levy was 6d., which amount was paid, on every sale of a 500-lb. bale of raw cotton, by the cotton spinner. That sum was reduced to a maximum of 3d. when the Act was prolonged in 1928; and this Bill proposes, during the period of further prolongation, to reduce that maximum of 3d. to a maximum of Id. The reduction in the amount is due, first, to the diminished wealth of the cotton spinning industry, and, secondly, to the fact that the Empire Cotton Growing Corporation has been very careful in its finance, and can carry on with a less amount.
The true justification for the Cotton Industry Act lies in the history of the last 10 years. The levy is paid to the Empire Cotton Growing Corporation, which does not itself either grow or sell cotton, but which trains scientists and fosters re-

821
search with a view to developing the productive capacity of cotton plantations in all parts of the Empire, tropical and subtropical, with the exception of India. The result of the imposition of this levy during the last 10 years has been to contribute very greatly to an immense increase in the productivity of our Empire. In the year 1922, only 112,000 bales of 400 lbs. each were grown within the British Empire. That figure had increased to 470,000 in 1932, although, of course, that was a year which was by no means favourable for the production of raw cotton, which commanded, in fact, very low prices indeed. Summing up that result, it has made for greater security in regard to the supply of raw cotton for English cotton spinners, and they have become less dependent on the fluctuations of the American supply on and the changing policy of the American Government. The second result has been the very great development of the cotton growing areas in Uganda, Nyasaland, Southern Rhodesia, Sudan and the West Indies. During 1933 it is expected that the Uganda crop will reach its record of 275,000 bales.
In those circumstances, I have every hope that the Bill will commend itself to the House, and that on Friday the House will give its consent to all stages of the Bill being taken at 4 o'clock. That has been done on previous occasions. I am fortified in that hope by two reassuring considerations. First of all, on the policy of the Bill, all parties are united. Among its backers this afternoon are, not only Conservative Members, but, I am also glad to say, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) and my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). Not only is there unanimity among all parties, but there is complete unanimity in Lancashire itself. Unlike other industries in which there is a division of opinion upon the question of research, in the cotton industry all classes, employers and employed, are absolutely of the same opinion. For that reason, in choosing the backers of the Bill—I am entitled to ask for 11 backers—I have chosen Lancashire Members. It is, therefore, a complete Lancashire eleven, and, playing on their own ground, I have no doubt that they will win. I believe that the Bill will be a real contribution to the welfare of the cotton spinning industry for many
822
years to come. It may be said that the work of the Empire Cotton Growing Corporation is still in its infancy. We are not yet, of course, independent of the American supply, but we may very well foresee a time when the Lancashire cotton spinner will be able to obtain the great bulk of his raw material within the Empire. He will certainly in those days see in the far-flung cotton plantations which this Bill is designed to foster a permanent memorial of the providence of our generation.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Gerald Hurst, Sir Herbert Samuel, Mr. Hacking, Commander Astbury, Colonel Broadbent, Mr. Crossley, Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. Essenhigh, Captain Fuller, Mr. Potter, Sir Nairne Stewart Sande-man and Mr. Thorp.

COTTON INDUSTRY BILL,
"to amend and prolong the duration of the Cotton Industry Act, 1923," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 55.]

SALE OF CHEESE.
Mr. R. J. RUSSELL: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Food and Drugs (Adulteration) Act, 1928, and to control the sale of cheese other than whole-milk cheese."
The Bill which I desire to ask the permission of the House to introduce deals with a very simple but nutritious article of very common consumption in this country—cheese. A situation has arisen analogous to the situation which was common in this country in the days when this House found it necessary, in dealing with the question of butter, to pass an Act defining what was margarine and what was butter. The traditional composition of cheese is the coagulated casein of the milk, and contained therein is the whole of the butter fat content. That butter fat content in whole-milk may be from 45 per cent. to 55 per cent. or even higher in the dry matter, but circumstances are so developing that that butter fat content is being rapidly changed in a very large proportion of the cheese which is sold. Pro tanto, dealing with one class of cheese called half-meat

823
cheese, the manufacturer takes the evening's milk and extracts from it the whole of the cream or butter fat and puts the skimmed milk into the next morning's milk, and then manufactures it into cheese, with the result that the butter fat content drops from perhaps 55 per cent. to the neighbourhood of 16 or 20 per cent. No one objects to that being done provided the consumer knows that the product he is purchasing does not contain the food value it is supposed to contain.
What is happening in this country is, that on the same board the grocer is displaying a whole-meat cheese and a half-meat cheese. They look the same. Their processes are approximately the same, and the consumer is injured by being supplied with an article of inferior quality. The purpose of the Bill is to secure that in the future all cheese which is not made of whole-milk shall be marked as "Skimmed milk cheese." That is the first thing. In order to do that, it is necessary to amend the Food and Drugs Act. I am sure that on a technical question the House would rather have other information than I can give, so I will quote the Government report on the marking of dairy produce. In dealing with the position, the report says:
"The sale of cheese deficient in fat, unless identifiable and sold as such, not only constitutes a form of unfair competition with the full-cream product but also tends to bring into general disrepute, in an international market such as that of the United Kingdom, the produce of any country where butter fat content is not subject to control."
It is stated further:
"There appears to be no offence against the Food and Drugs (Adulteration) Act, 1928, if a purchaser who asks merely for ' cheese ' is supplied with cheese made from partly skimmed milk; in common parlance, the term ' cheese ' does not appear to carry the implication of whole-milk cheese."
It is therefore not possible for a prosecution to take place in respect of the sale of what is, after all, a fraudulent article. For that reason, it becomes necessary to pass a Bill such as that which I desire to introduce. The report further states:
"The compulsory sale of fat deficient cheese under the designation ' skimmed-milk cheese' would definitely inform the buyer that it was a deficient and inferior article. The competition in the sale of the product would be similar to that of butter and margarine, rather than that of inferior and of higher quality butter."
824
It seems fairly clear, even from the report of the Government Committee, that the Bill which I ask leave of the House to introduce is necessary if we are to have justice for those who consume our product and for those who make it. The second thing in the Bill is, that we provide, for the first time in this country, a standard for cheese. The amount of butter fat in whole-milk will vary from 45 to 55 per cent. We desire for the first time, and by the unanimous wish of the cheese-makers of this country, to have a standard set, and by implication the standard in the Bill is 45 per cent. of butter fat in the dry matter.
I do not think I need detain the House in arguing that one of the very first things that it is necessary to do with regard to all food products and all our agricultural activities is to produce standardisation everywhere. We must standardise or fail. We in Cheshire, and those in Somerset, the makers of Cheshire cheese and of Cheddar cheese, have done all that is possible in that direction. We have formed for years a federation. We have a grading system. We have employed people to go round and grade the cheese, trying to secure a higher standard. Now we come to the Government and say that we have done all we can; we ask you to let us have this Bill in order that we shall be able to bring up those who do not produce the highest product to the same standard as those who do. This is the third time of asking. Is it too much to hope that this Bill, which comes with the unanimous desire both of the producers and of the distributors of cheese, will, while we are doing so much to reconstruct the conditions applying to agriculture, find itself wedded to the Statute Book?
Major COLFOX: I rise to oppose the Bill, because in his speech in support of it the hon. Member has shown a lament-able ignorance of cheese. He has confessed, by implication, to an ignorance of what is, in fact, the finest cheese in the world, namely, blue vinny cheese, which is made in Dorset of skimmed milk. He has just told us that cheese made from skimmed milk is an inferior article. That is not so. At any rate, this particular cheese is vastly superior to such articles as he mentioned, namely, Cheshire or Cheddar cheese. Further, I object to this Bill on the ground that

825
it. is a still further interference with the liberty of the subject, and a meddling with farming affairs. It is entirely unnecessary, because, as I say, cheese made from skimmed milk is vastly superior, and I strongly object to the Bill.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. R. Russell, Major Carver, Sir William Edge, Mr. Lambert, Brigadier-Geneial Makins, Mr. McKie, Sir Joseph Lamb, Mr. Llewellyn-Jones, Mr. Remer, Sir Samuel Rosbotham, Mrs. Ward and Mr. Somervell.

SALE OF CHEESE BILL,
"to amend the Food and Drugs (Adulteration) Act, 1928, and to control the sale of cheese other than whole-milk cheese," presented accordingly, and read, the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 56.]

CHAIRMEN'S PANEL.
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had agreed to the following Resolutions, which they had directed him to report to the House:
1. That any Member of the Chairmen's Panel may and is hereby empowered to ask any other Member of the Chairmen's Panel to take his place temporarily in case of necessity.
2. That, in the absence of the Chairman of the Chairmen's Panel, the Panel may be convened at the request of any two Members of the Panel.
3. That where, on two successive sittings of a Standing Committee called for the consideration of a particular Bill, the Committee has to be adjourned by reason of the absence of a quorum within the first 20 minutes of the time for which the said Committee was summoned, the Chairman do instruct the Clerk to place the particular Bill at the bottom of the list of Bills then waiting consideration of that Committee, and that the Committee shall forthwith be convened to consider the other Bill or Bills then waiting.
4. That it is the undoubted and established right of the Chairman who is appointed to a Standing Committee for the consideration of a particular Bill
826
to name the day and hour on which the consideration of the Bill shall begin.
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Sir Cyril Cobb to act as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Dog Racing (Local Option) Bill); Sir Samuel Roberts to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Evidence (Foreign, Dominion, and Colonial Documents) Bill [Lords]; and Mr. Entwistle to act as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill).
Reports to lie upon the Table.

ARMY ESTIMATES, 1933.
Estimates presented, of Effective and Non-Effective Services of the Army for the financial year 1933 [by Command]; Referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed.
SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE A.
  Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had nominated the following Members to serve on Standing Committee A: Mr. David Adams, Mr. Batey, Mr. Ralph Beaumont, Mr. Briant, Colonel Broad-bent, Mr. Chorlton, Major Colfox, Mr. Conant, Mr. Thomas Cook, Mr. Crossley, Mr. Culverwell, Mr. Dickie, Mr. Donnfer, Mr. Duckworth, Lord Fermoy, Sir Gifford Fox, Colonel Gault, Mr. Glossop, Colonel Goodman, Mr. Greene, Mr. David Gren-fell, Captain D'Arcy Hall, Mr. Holds-worth, Captain Arthur Hope, Mr. Howard, Sir Henry Jackson, Mr. Joel, Major Leighton, Mr. Liddall, Viscount Lymington, Sir Mervyn Manningham-Buller, Lieut. - Colonel Mayhew, Mr. Moreing, Mr. Pethick, Miss Rathbone, Captain Cunningham-Reid, Lord Scone, Mr. Robert Smith, Mr. Soper, and Miss Ward.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Evidence (Foreign Dominion and Colonial Documents) Bill) [Lords]: Colonel

  827
  Applin, Brigadier-General Clifton Brown, Major Sir Herbert Cayzer, Mr. Janner, Mr. Holford Knight, Mr. Lennox-Boyd, Captain Peter Macdonald, Brigadier. General Makins, Major Milner, and the Solicitor-General.

  STANDING COMMITTEE B.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had nominated the following Members to serve on Standing Committee B: Lieut.-Colonel Acland - Troyte, Mr. Michael Beaumont, Sir Alfred Beit, Mr. Boulton, Mrs. Copeland, Mr. Curry, Mr. Denville, Sir Francis Fremantle, Mr. Guinness, Mr. George Hall, Captain Heilgers, Sir Paul Lathom, Captain Loder, Mr. Logan, Mr. Mabane, Captain Peter Macdonald, Lieut.-Colonel Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon, Mr. Nail-Cain, Captain Peake, Mr. Perkins, Sir Basil Peto, Mr. Price, Mr. Arthur Reid, Colonel Ropner, Mrs. Runge, Mr. West Russell, Mr. Rutherford, Mr. Salt, Sir Ernest Shepper-son, Mr. Smith-Carington, Mr. Henderson Stewart, Mr. Storey, Major Thomas, Sir Kenyon Vaughan-Morgan, Sir William Wayland, Mr. Scrymgeour Wedderburn, Mr. Wills, Mr. Wise, and Mr. Young.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had nominated Standing Committee B as the Committee on which Government Bills shall not have precedence.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Dog Racing (Local Option) Bill): Mr. Briant, Mr. Buchan-Hepburn, Viscount Castlereagh, Mr. Rhys-Davies, Captain Elliston, Captain Arthur Hope, Miss Horsbrugh, Mr. Alexander Ramsay, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Smiles, and Mr. Oliver Stanley.

  SCOTTISH STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That the following Members representing Scottish Constituencies are appointed to serve on the Standing Committee for the consideration of all Public Bills relating exclusively to Scotland and committed to a Standing Committee: the Lord Advocate, Brigadier-General Sir William Alexander, Mr. Anstruther-Gray, Duchess of Atholl, Sir
  828
  Adrian Baillie, Mr. Barclay-Harvey, Mr. Boothby, Mr. Ernest Brown, Mr. Buchan, Mr. Buchanan, Mr. Burnett, Sir Samuel Chapman, the Marquess of Clydesdale, Commander Cochrane, Sir Godfrey Collins, Lieut.-Colonel Colville, Mr. Cowan, Earl of Dalkieth, Lord Dunglass, Major Elliot, Mr. Emmott, Mr. Dingle Foot, Sir Patrick Ford, Sir John Gilmour, Mr. Duncan Graham, Mr. Guy, Sir Robert Hamilton, Sir Robert Home, Miss Horsbrugh, Dr. Joseph Hunter, Lieut.-General Sir Aylmer Hunter - Weston, Mr. Jamieson, Mr. James Johnston, Mr. Campbell Ker, Lieut.-Colonel Kerr, Mr. Kirkwood, Mr. Leonard, Lieut.-Colonel Charles MacAndrew, Captain James MacAndrew, Sir Murdoch Macdonald, Captain McEwen, Mr. McGovern, Mr. McKie, Mr. Maclay, Mr. Neil Maclean, Dr. William McLean, Sir Ian Macpherson, Mr. Macquisten, Mr. David Mason, Mr. Maxton, Mr. C. Milne, Lieut.-Colonel Moore, Captain Moss, Mr. Ormiston, Captain Archibald Ramsay, Mr. Thomas Ramsay, Mr. James Reid, Mr. Albert Russell, Lord Scone, Mr. Scrymgeour Wedderburn, Mrs. Shaw, Captain Shaw, Sir Archibald Sinclair, Mr. Skelton, Mr. Robert Smith, the Solicitor-General for Scotland, Mr. Stevenson, Mr. Henderson Stewart, Mr. James Stuart, Mr. Templeton, Sir Frederick Thomson, Mr. Train, Mr. John Wallace, and Major Sir Murdoch McKenzie Wood.
  Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill:) Lord Balniel, Mr. Hicks, Mr. Law, Mr. McKeag, Major Sir Alan McLean, Mr. Munro, Mr. Ross Taylor, Lord Colum Crichton-Stuart, Captain Watt, and Mr. Whiteside.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Public Accounts, That they give leave to the Clerk of the Parliaments to attend to be examined as a witness before the Select Committee of this House on Public Accounts.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BILL.
  Order for Third Beading read.
  4.5 p.m.
  The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Pybus): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  In moving the Third Beading of this Bill, it may be worth while to recall for a few moments the Parliamentary history of the Bill itself. Few Bills have had so much history; furthermore, few Bills have received so searching an examination in Committee. The Joint Select Committee of both Houses of Parliament, under the Chairmanship of Lord Lytton, examined it for 35 days. During that time the transport and financial witnesses for the promoters and the Minister himself were exposed to cross-examination by much legal talent, and answered some 10,000 questions. Now the National Government, on assuming office, reviewed the position regarding this Bill. They felt that as it emerged from the Committee it embodied so large a measure of general agreement that it should be carried forward, if possible, into the new Parliament—a course to which both Houses agreed without a Division. We felt, of course, that it was impossible to do this unless substantial modifications in addition to those made by the Joint Commitee were made in the scheme of the Bill. These proposed changes were set out in a White Paper which I circulated as far back as last July, so that the modifications have been before Parliament for over six months. They were substantially adopted in Committee, and take their place in the scheme which the House is now asked to pass.
  Like the Bill, London passenger traffic has had a long history, but it is, I think, sufficient to say that every successive inquiry into means by which we could solve this problem has emphasised the need for a more comprehensive scheme of co-ordination, and events have moved more and more towards a complete consolidation of the interests concerned. I understand that it was mainly lack of Parliamentary time that compelled the Conservative Government in 1928 to inform the London County Council and
  844
  the Underground Group that, as far as that Parliament was concerned, they would have to make what limited progress they could towards a solution by promoting private Bills of a merely enabling character. Frankly, I have always felt that at that time if such Bills had gone forward they might have been a useful step in the progress of London transport, although it is a fact that they only touched the fringe of the problem. But in the years that have gone by, I think it is without question that London passenger transport and its problems have run far beyond any partial solution. Finance alone now demands not only coordination of traffic, but, I suggest, a wide pooling of resources if the needs of the public for new and improved facilities are to be met without demand upon the public purse.
  Let us look for a few moments at the methods which have had to be adopted in recent years in order to finance railway and other traffic improvements in London. A few years ago it was necessary to get a Treasury guarantee in order to finance two or three new tubes. More recently, in order to secure much needed extensions to Cockfosters and the line just opened by the Metropolitan Railway to Stanmore, it has been necessary to go beyond a guarantee, and to provide actual grants of substantial amounts over a long period of years from the Exchequer itself. In the Government's opinion, the provision of facilities like these should be found by the combined and pooled resources of the transport undertakings of the area. They should not be made a charge either upon the Exchequer or upon the London ratepayer. This Bill puts no charge whatever either on public funds or public credit.
  We are satisfied that full efficiency and the necessary economies cannot be achieved except by unity of management, and, further, we are more and more convinced that unity of management can only be secured by complete amalgamation and unified ownership. Who, for instance, will seek to-day to justify for a moment leaving the Inner Circle railway any longer in two different ownerships, or the retention of the separate existence of nearly 20 tramway undertakings in the area over which the Bill will operate? The business of providing omnibus services only partially co-ordinated through the Underground organisation

  845
  must also take its place as an integral part of one transport whole. Excessive competition in transport, insufficiently controllable under existing London legislation, is such that neither the available accommodation in our streets, nor the public safety and convenience permit us to tolerate it, apart altogether from the unfair restrictions which this state of things brings about with regard to the absence of improvements such as the electrification of the suburban lines. We want, without delay, a public board which will view and tackle the problems of London transport as a whole, and not do it through any pair of spectacles distorted by tramway, tube, omnibus or coach, but free from any preconceived ideas in order to arrive at a correct solution of this urgent problem.
  I have endeavoured to examine, free from any preconceived ideas as to the correct solution of this urgent problem, this scheme and all the schemes which have been hitherto proposed, and which have been examined at very great length by commissions and committees. We are convinced that a new public board of the type which the Bill proposes is the only practicable solution. After much consideration, the Government are satisfied that even if the present Bill were rejected and a new Bill brought in in its place, it would, in its chief characteristics and in its main basic principles, be similar to the one now before the House. A new and important factor is the pooling arrangement between the Board and the main lines. The inclusion of the main lines in the co-ordination through the pooling scheme brings those important elements in London transport into the closest practicable relationship with the Board, and is an essential feature of the Bill. Without such a provision the Bill would be sadly incomplete. With it, we may hope, I believe, for developments which are quite unattainable under present conditions. I may say that, with regard to such development, we are informed that the London Midland and Scottish Railway and the London and North Eastern Railway are prepared, as soon as the Board is set up, to table schemes for the electrification of their suburban lines, a step which would not only be for the great convenience of the travelling public, but would also provide a good source of em-
  846
  ployment to the workmen of this country. We claim that the Bill in its present form is not only technically necessary, but thoroughly sound.
  Now as to the financial basis of the Bill. The tramways belonging to the local authorities presented a special problem. With the exception of two undertakings which have preferred to leave their claims to be determined by arbitration, the Board will acquire these undertakings by paying the authorities concerned either in a special prior stock or in cash to an amount equivalent to their outstanding debt. This was not unfair, for anyone familiar with the tramway systems of London will appreciate that, while some of the undertakings have not been equally prosperous and some indeed have been a charge on the rates, they are and will remain for many years an essential unit in the mass transportation of the people within the London area. The small omnibus companies will be compensated in cash unless they notify the Arbitration Tribunal that they wish to be compensated wholly or partly in Board stock. One substantial operator indicated to the Joint Committee that he wished to be compensated in the stock of the Board, and that decision was registered in the Joint Committee. The settlements with the other company undertakings have proceeded generally on the basis of an agreed exchange of stock. Broadly speaking, well secured debentures will receive "A" stocks, and well secured preference stocks will receive "B" stocks. Many of these stocks are already trustee securities. The Board will issue £12,500,000 of a special "T.F.A." stock, to be issued in exchange for debentures of the companies already carrying a Treasury guarantee under the Trade Facilities Acts.
  The ordinary stocks of the companies presented a different problem. The terms for the- acquisition of the underground common fund companies were explained to the joint committee and are set out in the appropriate schedule. Generally, it will be seen that in exchange for the ordinary stock of the companies, "C" stocks of the board of a less nominal amount are allowed, and a limit, a strict limit, is placed upon the amount of interest which the "C" stock may pay. A standard rate is fixed—5 per cent. for the first two years and 5½ per cent.

  847
  thereafter, with a maximum participation up to a further ½ per cent. in any surplus earnings above 5½ per cent. The standard rate as not guaranteed and the interest is not cumulative, while the rate of return can never in the most favourable circumstances exceed 6 per cent. I hope the House has noted these figures, because I have heard, not inside the House so much as outside it, the most exaggerated statements regarding the position of the "C" stock. These arrangements were not reached in a haphazard way but after the fullest investigation and, we believe, are fair both to the public and to the interests concerned, for the reasons explained by Sir William McLintock in his evidence.
  Similar principles were adopted with regard to the Metropolitan Railway, which I recently explained to the Committee. This agreement is set out at length in its appropriate Schedule. There has been some misapprehension and some rather cynical views expressed as to why the main line railways thought it worth their while to give the limited guarantee embodied in this particular agreement. There is nothing new in the desire of the main line companies to see the Metropolitan Railway part of the board's undertaking. They always took the view that the Metropolitan Railway should be fully merged in the undertaking of the board and not left merely as a separate party to the pool. The amalgamation of these interests gives greater security and stability to the fabric of London transport as a whole and at the same time makes it possible to accelerate both operating economies and superior services. In providing this solution, which cannot in any way prejudice the public and must assist both themselves and the board, the main lines have not acted imprudently. In concluding my remarks on the subject, I may perhaps give the House a few figures illustrating the scope of their liability under the guarantee? Let us take the worst case of all from the point of view of the main line railways in regard to the guarantee that they have given. Supposing all the existing stockholders entitled to do so took the assented stock. There would then be a margin in favour of the main lines jointly of about £10,000 when the "C" stock paid 5 per cent. If the "C" stock paid only 3 per cent.
  848
  there would be a call of somewhat over £100,000 to be met. This liability would naturally be distributed among the main lines in their pool proportions. Therefore, the House will see how limited both in scope and in duration is the arrangement that has been made.
  The House will remember that at the request of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Fulham (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan), a revised pro-forma revenue statement was prepared by Sir Williaim McLintock and published as a White Paper. It has been brought as closely up to date as possible, to allow for changes in the capital position. The period on which the estimates of the earning power of the board are based have not been revised and, I suggest, for very good reasons, as the figures do not claim to be a definite forecast of what the board will earn year by year from its inception. Such a forecast depends on factors which cannot be quantified. It depends, for example, on the degree of efficiency with which the combined undertakings are conducted, and on the board's policy generally in carrying out the duties imposed on them by the Bill. It also depends upon the economies which can be effected and the rate at which those economies can be brought into operation. It depends also, as so many undertakings do, upon the state of trade, like the earnings of the present undertakings.
  The primary purpose of Sir William McLintock's statement, as its heading indicates, is to illustrate the manner in which the board's revenue will be applied in accordance with the terms of the Bill, and it was only possible to arrive at the amount of revenue at the board's disposal by reference to the past earnings of the undertakings to be transferred. The figures therefore represent the estimated normal earning capacity of the existing undertakings judged by past results. To adopt as the basis for such a statement the earnings during a period of abnormal depression would surely be mistaken and entirely misleading. We are not legislating merely for the next year or two. It is necessary to take a long view in regard to London passenger transport. Sir William McLintock adopted the annual average earnings for the last three normal years, 1928 to 1930. Any hon. Member can form his own opinion as to the representative character

  849
  of that particular period. It was not a boom period, but surely no one is going to suggest that the eventual prosperity of this country, of London, or of London transport is to be judged by the trading results of 1931 or 1932. Is not the real question whether the financial scheme of this Bill is flexible enough to meet the exceptional circumstances in which the board will start its existence, and any other fluctuations of depression which it may encounter, in common with other enterprises? We think that the scheme does possess that degree of flexibility.
  The "C" stock has been deliberately made dependent upon earnings, like the stocks for which it is given in exchange. The standard return upon it, as I have said, is strictly limited. If it can earn the standard rate, well and good, but as everyone familiar with transport conditions knows this kind of result is not and cannot be achieved merely by putting up fares. That is not the way to attract traffic or to increase receipts. If the standard rate is not earned then any shortage is not carried forward. Interest on the "C" stock is not cumulative. I should like to make that point very clear in case it has been misunderstood widely in the House. The rights of the stockholders to intervene by applying for a receivership cannot in any case be exercised for five years—instead of two years as was proposed by the joint committee—under a very useful Amendment made on the Report stage in this House. Before I leave the financial side may I refer once more to Sir William McLintock's pro-forma statement. Much has been said about the inadequate margin for the operations of the board when its undertakings are merged. The assumption on which the estimates are based are set out in the notes of the statement itself. This statement showed that after meeting the interest on the "A" and "B" stocks £1,620,000 is left to meet the interest on the "C" stock. It is noteworthy that after paying its fixed charges there is a margin of £1,620,000 left for the dividend on its "C" stock.
  Sir KENYON VAUGHAN-MORGAN: Will the Minister state the total capital involved?
  Mr. PYBUS: If the hon. and gallant Member will allow me, I would prefer to complete this part of my statement and to deal later with any queries. The "C"
  850
  stock does not carry the right to a fixed rate of interest unless it is earned. This figure we suggest is the measure of the flexibility of the scheme, subject only to the limited right of the "C" stockholders to apply for a receivership. Even when the interest has been paid on the "G" stock at the rate of 5 per cent. there still remains a margin of over £400,000 and when after the first two years the standard rate rises to 5½ per cent. a margin of over £280,000. I hope that these figures will do something to remove the impression that the scheme is working on too fine a limit. We contend that the scheme of the Bill is technically sound and, in spite of altered circumstances, financially sound.
  We have made certain other changes, of which the House is aware. In the Bill as originally introduced there were many features which were regarded as wrong, or questionable in principle. The powers claimed for the board to run all over the country under the guise of working agreements were excessive, and have been reduced to proper proportions. The powers of manufacture which the Bill claimed for the board were excessive and were drastically curtailed by the Joint Committee. The powers proposed to be conferred on the Minister were also excessive, but the result of the action of the Joint Committee and the Committee of this House is practically to remove Ministerial control from the Bill. The factor of the enforced exchange of stock, an unusual although not an entirely unprecedented proposal, is replaced by agreement, and all those undertakings which desire compensation in cash will get it. The proposal to transfer to the board the extensive Surplus Lands undertaking of the Metropolitan Railway has been abandoned. The pooling agreement with the main lines, instead of being left a matter of discretion to the Minister, is approved and its framework laid down in the Bill itself. In many minor matters, too, the Bill has been modified and improved by the thorough process of revision to which it has been subjected in this Parliament as well as in the last.
  With the modifications I have described, the Measure is one which the Government have no hesitation in urging the House to pass. I appreciate the feelings of those who have laboured for other solutions in earlier days, but is it not

  851
  time, is it not possible, to put the memory of these old struggles and disappointments behind us and to look forward to an agreed solution of this problem? It is, I suggest, peculiarly fitting that a National Government and a National Parliament, as we are, should take the responsibility of acting and of solving the problem which has too long been a perennial subject of investigation and controversy. We want to see controversy out of the way; we want to see the able technical and business minds in these various undertakings free to devote their energies to a co-operative effort to make the Bill and the board a success. It is of immense importance that, just as the board will be brought into existence with the consent of the major interests concerned, it should start its life with the assurance of the good will of Parliament, its creator, and of the public, whose needs it will be its duty to serve.
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: Can the Minister of Transport give me the figures about the capital for which I asked?
  Mr. PYBUS: I will see that they are supplied later.
  4.32 p.m.
  Dr. SALTER: We on these benches regard the Bill as falling far short of the needs of the situation in London, but, nevertheless, it is a step in the right direction, and we do not propose to oppose the Third Reading or to support the Motion for rejection to be moved by the hon. and gallant Member for Fulham East (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan). The Bill as it stands is a mangled edition of the Bill introduced by Mr. Morrison in 1930. Many of the most valuable provisions of that Bill have either been mutilated or spoilt. The Minister of Transport has described the alterations as modifications; we should call them emasculations, and we consider that the Bill, although it will affect an improvement on the existing situation, is quite inadequate to meet the needs of London. Even the Bill originally introduced by Mr. Morrison did not satisfy members of the Labour party. It was a compromise. Mr. Morrison was quite aware that he did not command a majority in the House, and he had to frame his Bill accordingly. We believe that nothing short of complete public ownership and control will provide a satis-
  852
  factory solution of the transport problem of London, and as time goes on the people of London will demand that such public control shall be exercised. The problem of London passenger transport is so urgent that we are glad to accept anything which will improve the existing arrangements. You have an over supply of transport on some roads and an under supply on others. You have increasing congestion in the streets, many blockages, with loss of time every day; and there is very little prospect of any improvement as things are now. On my way to the House this afternoon I was held up for six minutes in an omnibus at the Bricklayers Arms and for another 11 minutes at the Elephant and Castle. There was a waste of time of 17 minutes, on a journey which should, normally, not occupy more than 25 minutes. That is an experience which is, of course, general all over London.
  Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: Will the hon. Member relate the purpose of the Bill to this congestion, and explain how this or any other Bill will remove it?
  Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: The hon. Member is not promoting the Bill.
  Dr. SALTER: I will refer to that matter in a moment. There are huge outlying districts of Greater London which are inadequately supplied with passenger transport from which bitter complaints come to us day after day. There is no chance of additional tubes being laid down under present conditions. The Minister of Transport has said that the London Midland and Scottish Railway and the London and North Eastern Railway have intimated that as soon as the Bill is through they will be in a position to proceed with the electrification of their suburban lines.
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: The hon. Member will pardon me. The Minister of Transport said that they would be in a position to bring forward proposals.
  Dr. SALTER: At any rate, the position is that they are not able to bring forward proposals at the present time and that there is no likelihood of any proposals being forthcoming until this, or some similar, measure has been carried by this House. Terrible inconvenience and much suffering is caused to hundreds and

  853
  thousands of people every day. The word "inconvenience" is really a misnomer. It is positive martyrdom for hundreds and thousands of people to get to and from their work. Recently letters in the Press have described how people from outlying districts get to their offices, and it was pointed out that they have to spend 1¼ hours and 1½ hours twice daily on a journey which ought not, with proper means of locomotion, to take more than half an hour or 35 minutes. It means that these people are being robbed of their rest and leisure, robbed of a part of their life, by the inadequate arrangements which exist at present. All the authorities and all interests concerned agree that there can be no improvement in any real sense unless and until transport methods are co-ordinated and unified.
  A few years ago the London Traffic Advisory Board held an inquiry with regard to the facilities for travelling in South East London. There was great indignation in most of the south-eastern boroughs at that time and public meetings were held at which resolutions were passed demanding further facilities. It was decided to hold an inquiry as to how the facilities for passenger transport in this part of the Metropolis could be improved. The borough councils went to considerable expense in instructing counsel, and an enormous volume of evidence was collected. Many suggestions were put forward. The whole of the South London boroughs passed a resolution demanding the construction of an additional tube in the South East, particularly to lead from London Bridge or the Elephant and Castle to Woolwich. Money was poured out like water; and the inquiry lasted for weeks. What was the result? Absolutely nothing was done, and some time afterwards, when a deputation waited upon Lord Ashfield and urged upon him the desirability of constructing a tube in the South East of London, his reply was, and has been ever since to every such application, that his company could not do anything as long as the unregulated competition existed and as long as there was so much overlapping. That is the position to-day. There is no hope whatever unless and until this Bill, or a Bill on identical lines, is carried through co-ordinating the traffic arrangements. We then had Mr.
  854
  Morrison's Bill in 1930. I regard that as a monument of patient and skilful negotiation, but the events of August, 1931, led to that Measure being shelved or suspended.
  The present Bill is just a salvage Measure. It saves a little out of the wreck of Mr. Morrison's Bill. Perhaps it salves some of its most essential features, but a great many of the best parts of the original Bill have gone. We accept the present Bill because it is better than nothing. We shall get unification and co-ordination, although not under the conditions that we want. The public also will benefit from it, but not as much as they would have benefited if the original Measure had been carried. In these days we have to be thankful for small mercies. While we are not satisfied with the Bill we shall not oppose the Third Reading, but I can assure the Minister of Transport that there is no element of gratitude in our support for the Measure. We accept it, although it is imperfect and unsatisfactory, as a small step in the right direction.
  4.44 p.m.
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add the words "upon this day six months."
  The Minister of Transport has moved the Third Reading of the Bill in an interesting speech, which the House has followed with close attention. He laid stress, and properly, upon the importance of the inquiry carried through by the Joint Select Committee. The importance of that work will be realised by all hon. Members who are familiar with this question. He did not take into account, however, the fact that the inquiry of the Select Committee was not complete, and we are anxious for further and fuller information as to the situation to-day. The changed circumstances of the times have been, I think, brushed over too lightly by the right hon. Gentleman. It is interesting also to notice that he bestowed his need of praise on the two Bills introduced by the Conservative Government. With regard to these I shall have more to say.
  Perhaps I may be permitted to set the Minister right on one point, and that is that certainly we who oppose this Bill are opposing it for reasons which are good in our judgment, and not because

  855
  we do not view the problem through fair spectacles. We certainly do not look at it from any distorted point of view. If we had a chance we should not follow the same lines as those which the Government have adopted. As it is, of course, as the Minister has said, a certain number of the objectionable features which the Bill was bound to possess when introduced have been removed. There is no question, from our point of view, that it is improved, but there is room for so many further improvements that we do not consider the Bill suitable or proper for its task.
  The Minister in his review made reference to the unusual history of the Bill. As he said, it has followed a course quite unprecedented in the history of Parliament. It was carried over not from Session to Session but from Parliament to Parliament. In the course of the long deliberations which have taken place since 27th October, when we had a Debate on the carry-over Motion, the four-and-a-half days of Committee and the Report stage which concluded yesterday, the Minister and his colleagues and those of us who have been closely concerned have paid great attention to the details, and I am sure we should like to express our thanks to the Minister and his Parliamentary colleague and the learned Attorney-General for the skill and attention which they have devoted to the Bill. As the Minister knows, we oppose this Bill as a matter of principle and not for any personal motives regarding himself or his colleagues.
  The "Times" in one of the numerous and rather interesting leading articles which it has devoted to the problem of London passenger transport and to this Bill, stated that the Minister and his colleagues would require courage, cool heads and perseverance if they were to carry their task to a successful conclusion. If we take the last quality, perseverance, they have certainly been possessed of that. In fact I should say that the Government have evinced a far too great and most undesirable perseverance in pushing this Measure through in the way they have done. Cool heads of course they possess, and even if they did not they could always send one of their Ganymedes to the fountains of wisdom under the gallery to refresh the
  856
  heated brow or to get draughts from the fount of wisdom if they needed them. But when it comes to courage, of course modesty forbids me to indicate where I feel that courage lies; but I do not think the Government, supported by its vast majority, can claim any great amount of courage in pushing this Bill through in the way they are doing. The genial trio who have handled the Measure in the House, the learned Attorney-General, the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary, rather remind me, not so much in their geniality as in the severity of their attitude towards concessions, of three masculine Fates shearing the threads of London's liberties with their shears. I believe that the Fates, according to mythology, were ladies, and in this respect I am departing a little from precedent.
  As regards the history of the Measure, the Minister has already referred to that, so perhaps we do not need to consider it any further. But the importance of the Measure is undoubted, inasmuch as the Government are insisting upon pushing through this monopoly, which must gravely affect the lives of 9,000,000 odd inhabitants of an area spread over 1,800 square miles and including those who make no fewer than 4,000,000,000 passenger journeys per annum. Continuity in policy, I was reminded by an answer to a question to-day by the Minister of Pensions, is a virtue in many directions. With regard to pensions, foreign policy and so on, it is undoubtedly a virtue; but continuity of policy applied to a Measure of this sort and carried to excess, certainly attains the dimensions of a vice. I can find it in my heart to regret very much that so much continuity has been insisted upon, instead of the amount of modification which we desired and which might have come about if the concessions that we asked for had been granted in more generous measure.
  It is a case of then and now. The Bill when it first saw the light was denounced by the then Opposition. It has been improved since then, but not enough. The Bill to-day bears far closer resemblance to the original Bill than the hon. Member for West Bermondsey (Dr. Salter) gave it credit for. Its parentage is known. I can imagine this little Bill toddling along to its natural parent, the right hon. Gentle-

  857
  man who favoured the House with his presence under the Gallery during the long Debates on it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] I refer to the original parent of the Bill, which Was introduced by the right hon. Herbert Morrison in 1931. Am. I not in order? I can imagine this little Bill toddling to its real parent and saying, with Shakespeare:
  "It is a wise father that knows his own child."
  And perhaps it might say:
  "Mistake me not for my complexion."
  The change is in appearance rather than in essential details. In the course of his remarks the Minister pointed out that in his view something must be done. We are familiar with that argument, and we do not deny it. All I have to say about it is that I do not think that the haste and the precipitancy which the Government have followed were necessary.
  If we were given a chance of solving this problem we should solve it in a different way. We should go back to the famous Blue Report, in the framing of which the hon. Member for Central Wandsworth (Sir H. Jackson) played a distinguished part. His work in connection with that report and the report itself were pronounced upon in terms of praise by the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) when we were discussing this problem two years ago. We should start with the same foundation, namely, the Blue Report. We should secure co-ordination, we should secure common management and a common fund, based on voluntary co-operation. We should avoid compulsory acquisition, which is a disagreeable feature of this Bill, and above all we should not subject parties to the co-ordination scheme to the risk of compulsory sale without the option of cash. We believe that our measures would secure ample opportunity of public representation as to fares and facilities such as, I submit, is not sufficiently secured in this Bill by the very nature of its provisions. Our proposals would aim at protection against monopoly, freedom for enterprise and reasonable competition to present stagnation. This Bill falls very far short of those ideals. The monopoly which will be set up is undoubted. Stagnation is likely to result in the long run, not at once I freely admit.
  858
  The board to be appointed will consist of very distinguished people, men whose names are well known. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Is it not common knowledge that it will? If not, then I withdraw; if the board does not consist of those to whom public expectation points, I must admit that I am wrong, but I think there need be no doubt about them. As the Minister said, we are legislating not for a few years, but for a long time, if not for all time. What will be the situation in 1934 we may conjecture. But what will be the situation in 1954 or 1984, 30, 40 or 50 years hence? What can we expect from a statutory monopoly carrying out a service of this kind, and what must we look for when we look back upon the main line railways in the days of their monopoly and success? Those of us who as traders know what they used to be have very vivid recollection of the rigidity of their attitude and the stagnation that. resulted.
  This Bill sets up a statutory monopoly, and in my view and that of many of my hon. friends there is insufficient and too remote opportunity for public control of the monopoly. The monopoly is a serious one. I regard the prospect as a very grim one for the passenger, in spite of what was said by the hon. Member for West Bermondsey, and in spite of what was said by the hon. Member for Central Wandsworth, that "cheap and efficient travelling facilities are as important as cheap food and cheap houses." Is the public going to get those advantages? The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) observed on 6th December:
  "There is not a citizen inside London or outside within 25 miles of Charing Cross, who will not be dependent on this particular transport and will not have a contingent liability to pay extra fares to pay the 5½ per cent."—[OFFICIAI, REPORT, 6th December, 1932; col. 1504, Vol. 272.]
  In October last, when the carry-over Motion was being debated, a good deal of attention was devoted to the question of compulsion and as to how far compulsion has been removed from the Bill in its present form. Compulsion in the first edition was admitted. How far it was removed in the second edition was the subject under discussion. The Secretary of States for the Colonies sought to make a case for the element of compulsion having been removed, but the learned Attorney-

  859
  General disposed of that argument in the course of the Committee stage. Compulsion certainly exists. As to what constitutes duress and what, does not, and what constitutes a degree of compulsion and what does not, we might perhaps learn in a discussion on matters of degree. But the learned Attorney-General certainly pointed out that if the Metropolitan Railway, to deal with only one case, had not been prepared to come in under a friendly agreement, there would have been an assessment by means of arbitration as to the value of that undertaking, and, as he said, nobody would suppose otherwise. I think that is compulsion. The matter is put still better by the right hon. Gentleman the noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), who said:
  "We are exerting the Sovereign power of this House and the Government to compel people to come into our amalgamation and to do certain things."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th December, 1932; col. 1516, Vol. 272.]
  I think the fact that there will be monopoly is admitted. The fact that there has been compulsion must be admitted also—two defects which were urged against the Bill in its first edition and which still remain with it to-day. If the great Metropolitan Railway Company had to yield to pressure of that sort, what about the smaller parties with whom dealings have been made? Has it not been made extremely clear to them that they had better come to terms in their own interests lest worse befall them? It is true that the Metropolitan Railway Company came to terms under this measure of compulsion, but the terms might be pretty good. They might have made a pretty good bargain, and yielded their freedom against compulsion but exacted a fairly generous price for it. As Sir Leslie Scott said in the course of the Select Committee deliberations:
  "Every man, it is said, has his price,"
  and in the case of the Metropolitan Railways it might have been a very good one. Sir William McLintock pointed out that every man might have his price, but also that every man might have his value. Of course, on that there would be no dispute. Those of us who have opposed this Bill would start with the same foundation, but would build on it a different structure which we believe would be free
  860
  from many of the great objections which we have urged against this Bill. Of course, we should provide proper co-operation. Everybody admits that is necessary. We should provide for common management and common funds, but we should not aim at or resort to, unified ownership any more than the Blue Report aimed at that, and still less a unified ownership acquired by exerting compulsion.
  Dr. SALTER: Will the hon, Member say whether by his scheme he thinks he would be able to secure co-ordination without compulsion?
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: The answer is in the affirmative. The Blue Report advocated unified operation of the major transport services, with a pooling arrangement for the suburban sections of the main line railways which could cover exactly the same area as we are dealing with now; and a scheme providing for common funds and common management without change of ownership, except in the case of small independent omnibus companies which from their very nature would have to be acquired and paid for in cash.
  Dr. SALTER: By compulsion?
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: Oh, no, not as much compulsion as there is now. The scheme also provided for mutual safeguards between the central management and the constituent companies. I think this is a fair representation of the proposals of the Blue Report, which I have always adhered to. On that report were based the two Bills supported by a Conservative Government, with which I voted in concert with many of my colleagues. Public control and questions of development, a very important point, was to be vested in the Minister acting on the advice of an advisory committee, also a very important body, and such technical experts as he should see fit to appoint. Local authorities were to be empowered to make representations to the Minister as to fares and facilities. The difference between the Bill and the Blue Report is that the Bill includes unified ownership compulsorily acquired. That is very different.
  I apologise to the House for having kept them so long, but those of us who have given a good deal of time and thought to this question have views which

  861
  we must put forward in order to justify to our fellow-members the attitude which we have thought right to take up. The advocates of this Bill have sought to make our flesh creep by threats that such is the condition of London transport that if the Bill is not passed fares will have to go up. That is where we join issue with them. We think it is inevitable that if this Bill is passed fares will go up. Advocates of the Bill have also endeavoured to charm us with promises and hopes, but where are the guarantees of these boons which we are likely to receive. The hon. Member for West Bermondsey referred to the very important report regarding the transport communications of South-East London issued under the aegis of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee. Among other things which that committee advocated was that certain steps should be taken by the Southern Railway Company. These have not been taken, if I may rely on the statement of my hon. Friend the Member for Central Wandsworth. Why? Because the Southern Railway have spent their money not on that, but on electrifying the main line to Brighton. I had much rather they had devoted it to carrying out the recommendations of the Traffic Advisory Committee and left the main line railway to Brighton to take care of itself until a more favourable occasion.
  What assurances, beyond the vague ones mentioned by the Minister, have we that the advantages for which we are asked to pay a price will ever really be ours? I am not sure if any hon. Member in the course of the Debate has referred to this matter, but the "Times" has mentioned the chaotic state of London passenger transport. That seems hard to suppose and impossible to accept. When one travels about the streets of London one does not see much signs of chaos. We see the busy omnibuses picking up and setting down at their appointed stopping places. Those of us who travel by public vehicles know and are familiar with them. We see the Underground thronged with passengers. We know the Tubes have been extended, and we are struck also by the great improvement in Tube stations. Is that a sign of chaos or impending collapse? It is incredible. It may be a very desirable thing for certain interests that this Bill should pass, but is it needed by the public? I
  862
  have said before that the passenger transport of London is the admiration of the world. There is no question about that.
  The hon. Member for West Bermondsey referred to street congestion. But that is not the care of this Bill. This Bill does not deal with it. That is the care and responsibility of the London and Home Counties Advisory Committee, and very well they do their job. As regards long distance transport, that is the function of the Commissioners appointed under the Act of 1930. Reference has been made to the great economies which are to be effected and which should relieve our anxieties as to the burden, which is to be cast on the travelling public. Where are they to come from, and what guarantee have we of them? I am aware that the London Midland and Scottish Railway claims to have effected economies of £14,000,000 in three years. But the management of that great undertaking is different from that of the London Electric Railways and the omnibuses and the Underground Combine. I do not believe it possible that there should be such margins of economy as have not yet been taken into account as to allow the Underground Combine to make enormous economies of that kind all of a sudden. I credit their management with far too close attention to detail to render such a thing possible. The financial side has been dealt with by the Minister, and I will only repeat that falling receipts, additional commitments, and the increasing cost of certain commodities, render it inevitable in our judgment, on the figures placed before us, that the board on asuming office will find themselves faced with—let us put it moderately—a financial situation of great difficulty. I think the Government have not given us much proof to the contrary.
  The Government demand the passage of this Bill in spite of protests. The Measure in its present form in my judgment is politically undesirable. It constitutes a precedent against the public interest. It imposes compulsion. It confers monopoly without any safeguards or control in the public interest. It gives no security to fares or services. It constitutes a board of management not effectively responsible to Parliament or the people in the area. It has been resisted and is resisted by the London

  863
  County Council, by the majority of the metropolitan borough councils and the metropolitan boroughs joint standing committee, responsible and important local authorities in the London area. I contend that now as two years ago there is no mandate for the Bill. I do not think I can improve on the words used two years ago by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn) who said:
  "The real fact that remains is that this matter has teen an issue at the elections, and it is ridiculous for anyone on the opposite side to say that there is a mandate for this Bill from the ratepayers of London, the "travelling public of London, or from any of the interests which are represented by the shareholders in the big concerns."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd March, 1931; col. 144, Vol. 250.]
  As regards the shareholders in the big concerns their position may have altered in the course of the last two years. It may be that the exercise of that compulsion to which I have referred may have been so far mitigated as to alter their position in some degree, but the point remains that there is no mandate from the ratepayers of London, from the travelling public, or from any other interest, save those which I have endeavoured to indicate. What the Government ought to have done I have tried to point out. They ought to have gone back—as we would propose to do—to the Blue Report. They ought to have revived the two previous Bills and amended them to meet the altered circumstances of today. They would then have produced a Measure free from the grave objections in the public interest to which I have drawn attention in the case of this Bill.
  It seems what may be called an irony of modern democracy that this Government should find themselves carrying through, indeed pushing through, a Measure started by the Government which they have replaced, a Measure little altered—insufficiently altered—from the one which they denounced and which was promoted by their predecessors. I submit that there is not that need for the Measure which the Minister has tried to claim. I deplore the Government's haste in this matter. I think they have persuaded themselves of an emergency which does not exist, and that they have become the not unwilling dupes of their own unnecessary forebodings. Because
  864
  I am satisfied that this Bill, if it receives the Royal Assent in its present form, will subject the travelling public of London to grave disadvantage, and because I believe it to be my duty to those whom I endeavour to represent, it is my intention to press my Amendment to a Division and to vote against the Bill.
  5.18 p.m.
  Sir PHILLIP DAWSON: I beg to second the Amendment. I agree with everything said by my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, and I will not add anything on the lines on which he has dealt with this matter. I should like in the first place to thank the Minister of Transport and the Attorney-General for the very charming and pleasant way in which they have turned down all the various Amendments for which we have asked in connection with this Bill. They have done so in such a charming manner that one can scarcely feel annoyed with them, much as one would like to. The Minister in his very complete exposition of the intentions of this Bill pointed out that the tubes, and the extensions of some of the existing underground railways were only possible by means of guarantees or grants. What will happen now? The expense will have to be borne by the travelling public. It will not then be a matter for the ratepayers who can make a fuss when electing their representatives on the borough and county councils, nor will it be for those who elect members of Parliament, because Parliament will say "We have created this Board; they are carrying on the work and we have no responsibility for them." The travelling public will be told that if they want tubes they will have to pay for them, and it will only mean shifting the burden from one shoulder on to another shoulder which will find it more difficult to bear.
  I can only touch on the financial issues involved in the proposals of the Bill. It is remarkable that the majority of London members who have given careful consideration to this Bill—and I think practically all the Members of the Conservative party on the London County Council which is responsible for a large transport system—are opposed to the Bill in its present form. It is remarkable that a Bill which affects not only the population of London, but the population within 25 miles of Charing Cross should be decided and the destinies of those

  865
  people in regard to transport should be settled by the votes of members who have nothing to do with London.
  I firmly believe that if this matter had been left to Members who represent London interests and the interests of the people directly affected by the Bill, this Measure would have been thrown out. I also believe firmly that had the Bill been submitted to a free vote of the House it would never have had much chance of passing. The whips have been put on however, and the result now cannot be in doubt. At the same time much as I dislike voting against the party to which I have always belonged, to which I shall always be faithful, in this case I find that I must be faithful first to the people of that part of London which I represent in this House. I have recently received from the Town Clerk of Lewisham a letter dated 11th February dealing with this Bill as follows:
  "The provisions of this Bill have been under consideration by the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee, and at their meeting held on 6th February, 1933, resolutions were passed in the following terms:
  That the committee do express the strong opinion that the London Passenger Transport Bill is objectionable as a whole and should be strenuously opposed.
  That copies of the foregoing resolution be forwarded to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Transport and the London County Councils, and
  That the constituent councils be requested to communicate with their respective Members of Parliament urging them to oppose the Bill.
  I have been directed to ask you to be good enough to oppose the provisions of the Bill which is not in the interests of London as a whole and is generally considered to be financially unsound."
  My hon. Friend the Member for Central Wandsworth (Sir H. Jackson) who spoke during the Committee stage and is very much in favour of the Bill is the nominee of this Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Committee on the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee.
  Sir HENRY JACKSON: I must correct that statement at once. I am not the representative of the Standing Joint Committee at all. I am the representative of the Metropolitan Boroughs, and I would ask my hon. Friend, since he is giving information to the House, how many Metropolitan Boroughs are advising their Members to vote to-night against the Third Reading of the Bill.
  Sir P. DAWSON: I am informed that that body represents 29 of the London Boroughs, and that the resolution which I have read was passed by a large majority. It may be asked how it is that this objection has only been brought forward recently. I suggest it is for the reason that in any case, those boroughs which are represented by municipal reformers on the county council, or which have a (majority of municipal reformers on their own councils, after the strenuous opposition of the Conservative Members to these proposals in the time of Mr. Herbert Morrison as Minister did not for a moment believe that the pass would be sold or that two of the great objections which they always had to the proposals would remain untouched in this Bill. The objection to the proposed transfer of ownership is the most serious of all. The method in which this ownership will be paid for, as a result of this Bill, must in the opinion of those councils and in my opinion be to raise the fares.
  May I say that in dealing with this matter the information on which my remarks are based is the best that I have been able to procure on these matters. My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment asked the Minister to tell us the total capital involved. We are told that the calculations according to which various authorities are to be bought out, are based on the results of the years 1928, 1929 and 1930. The Minister is hopeful—and I trust that his hopes will be justified—that we may experience in the next few years times as good as those which we have had in the past, but the latest published results of the various undertakings are not very encouraging. Yet these various undertakings we are told are to be bought out on the basis of the earnings made during comparatively good years. I suggest that that is not a hopeful prospect from the point of view of the fares which will have to be charged in order to pay interest on the capital involved.
  The figures which I have—and I give them to the House for what they are worth—show that the total decline in receipts for 1932 as compared with 1930 is £1,200,000 made up as follows: Underground group £755,931; Metropolitan Railway £182,883; London County Council trams £247,800; other trams, independent omnibuses, etc. £20,000.

  867
  Therefore, present conditions are worse than those of last year and are worse than the aggregate of 1928–1929 and 1930. But in addition since the Bill was introduced in 1931 the price of petrol has materially increased. On 28th April, 1931, there was an addition to the petrol tax of 2d. per gallon; on 11th September, 1931, there was another addition to the tax of 2d. per gallon and there was a rise in the price of petrol on 14th September, 1932, of 3d. a gallon. The average increase in the prices of petrol of various classes, as far as I have been able to estimate, is roughly about 4d. a gallon and the omnibus companies of London have a total estimated annual consumption of petrol in the neighbourhood of 30,000,000 gallons. An increase of 4d. a gallon is therefore an increase in the cost of working these undertakings of £500,000 per annum and that added to the figure already given represents a total difference of £1,700,000 compared with the figures for the three years on which the purchase is based. Sir William McLintock in his pro forma statement estimates a possible saving, but I do not think that that saving can possibly attain anything like the figure of £1,700,000.
  I suggest that there will be a deficit on the estimate of Sir William McLintock of about £1,000,000 per annum. If the board is faced with such a deficit where will they find the money to extend tubes or increase services? They will have to find some way of making economies far beyond anything which is possible merely by better co-operation or co-ordination. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend who has already spoken that, having regard to the excellent and economic management of the Underground group Messrs. Tillings and the Metropolitan Railway, any possible saving by obviating expenses will prove to be smaller than some people seem to expect.
  The board will have the alternatives of reducing facilities or of increasing fares. It should be remembered that the Underground and Metropolitan Railways carry only something like 12 per cent. of the total number of people carried in London, the remainder travelling by omnibus. The existing omnibus undertakings are perfectly happy and are earning a very good revenue, and under present conditions fares would not be raised. If, under present conditions, an attempt were made to
  868
  raise fares, I doubt very much whether any permission would be given to do so, but under this Bill, if the people were to complain of the raising of fares, the board would say, "We are under the obligation to pay the interest on this huge capital, and therefore we are very sorry, but fares must go up." What will the unfortunate public be able to do then? 'Nothing. The local authorities, who are most interested in the transportation of passengers to and from their homes morning and night, will have no say in the matter, and Parliament will have nothing to say either to the board which they have appointed with these great powers and obligations. I submit that that is not the proper way of dealing with this matter.
  I do not see—and I entirely agree with the remarks of my hon. and gallant Friend—why the ownership has been transferred. If it had remained where it was, and the unified management and pooling arrangements had been made, then whatever profit was reasonably earned would be earned, and whatever fares could reasonably be charged would be charged, and the net revenue would be divided between the different owners. The Minister suggested that only preference stocks would be receiving a guaranteed interest, but we are sorry to see to-day that there are many railways, extremely well managed, which have not been able to do that and that as a result some of the securities which for many years have been trustee securities are no longer so. From the point of view of the railways with which an agreement has been reached, I think they have made a very good deal for their shareholders. I do not object to that in the slightest. They have looked after the interests of those to whom they were responsible, but I am here, with my hon. and gallant Friend, to look after the interests of the people of Greater London to whom we are responsible. We are here to see that the position is clearly presented to the House, and we have done our best to show how dangerous the Bill will be to London's interests if it once becomes an accomplished fact.
  It is rather remarkable that only those undertakings which have such influence that it could be exercised on the Government have had their undertakings purchased at an agreed figure, but when 1 asked that Messrs. Tilling, one of the best

  869
  managed and oldest omnibus undertakings in this country, should be taken over on the same terms, I was refused. Obviously the reason is that those who had to be bought have had to receive the price that had to be paid to them for their support, but those who have not had to be bought will have to make the best bargain they can, and I am afraid it will be nothing like as good as that made by the railways. I think the whole matter is deplorable from the point of view that this Bill is being forced on London, on a large number of people who do not realise what is happening, and who, when the Bill is passed, will be entirely inarticulate and unable to express their dissatisfaction with what the Government have done.
  5.35 p.m.
  Sir ROBERT HORNE: I think the House will agree that we have listened to two very interesting and powerful speeches from the two hon. Members behind who have preceded me. Each of them speaks with great authority upon this matter. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Fulham (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan) not only speaks with authority as coming from a body which rules over a community as important and with as great interests as many of the nations that assert themselves so vociferously at Geneva, but as a member of the London County Council he has necessarily—
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: The right hon. and learned Gentleman does me too much honour. I have certain associations with the London County Council, but I am not a member of it.
  Sir R. HORNE: Then all that I can say is that my hon. and gallant Friend is very worthy to be a member of it. His advocacy of the point of view or what is supposed to be the point of view of the London County Council certainly deserves a halo of glory from that body and the earliest—shall I say—co-option that could possibly be adopted. Both of these hon. Members have spoken with both authority and experience. I, for my own part, although much less well equipped by nature, nevertheless have had in this matter some experience, which I think entitles me to address the House upon this very important subject. I have been for several years a director of the Underground Electric Rail ways
  870
  Company, which not only has holding interests in all the Tubes, in the London General Omnibus Company, and in certain other subsidiary omnibus interests, but is also associated with certain tramway interests in the traffic area of London; and all of these matters are very familiar to me.
  I must say that I regret that this connection which I have had with the London transport system is to come to an end, because it has provided me with, if I may so put it, a window which opens upon a scene where the ebb and flow of a great tide of vast human interests are of perpetual interest to me, and not only of interest, but of education and illumination. But while I am sorry that this occupation is to come to an end, I am convinced that something like this Bill is absolutely essential if London traffic is not going to end in chaos and confusion. I say something like this Bill. With regard to it, I am sure that nothing so valuable has ever before been put forward. I say more; I say that if the House were to reject it, they would do a very great disservice to London, in spite of what the two hon. Members have said with regard to it, and if we were to delay, to wait for a better Bill, I am certain that we should get a worse Bill; and I say that from the point of view of Conservative Members who sit around me in this House.
  I am not going to enter upon the details of the Bill—the Third Reading of it is not the occasion to do that—but before I pass to a major issue I should like to say a. word upon the question of finance, which has been introduced by the two hon. Members who have preceded me. The first thing which occurs to me upon that matter is, that if, as they say, the finance of this Bill is going to break down when all the various interests of London transport are collected into one whole, then it is going to break down much worse if they are all left separate and in sections; and so far from their ideal of cheap fares being realised by remaining as we are, either bankruptcy will occur to certain sections or the fares will have to go up. The only chance that you have of keeping moderate fares in London, such as no other part of the world is enjoying to the same extent, is by getting some such combination as is sought to be achieved by this Bill.

  871
  I have heard some extraordinary propositions from behind me this afternoon which I should scarcely have expected to hear from Conservative Benches. Indeed, while I have been listening to this Debate, it has seemed to me that an hon. Member who spoke from the opposite side might well have come from here and that my hon. Friend the Member for West Lewisham (Sir P. Dawson) might well have come from the other side; for what is the doctrine which he puts before us? It is that the people who have put capital into this great organisation are not to be entitled to get their due reward from it, that after they have, for a long period of years, had no return for their investment and for two or three years have enjoyed only a moderate revenue, they now ought to have their interest bought out upon the basis of the worst years ever known in our history. Is that good Conservative doctrine; is it fair or just to the people who have invested in these concerns; and is it to be said that now the modest amount of return which this Bill does not even guarantee but suggests for them is to be denied them? Does my hon. Friend say that the figures in the Bill are too high? I should like to know upon what basis that is said. Is it said upon the basis that it is too high a return on the capital, or that after all the misfortunes that the shareholders have endured they are now to be bought out on a basis which would not by any means represent even a modicum of appropriate return upon their investment?
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: So far as the purchase figure fixed for the Underground Combine, which is the term customarily used, is concerned, I do not think any basis on which the working out of the purchase was fixed has been explained to this House. A suggestion has been made that it is on the basis of 19½ years' purchase, but that has never been confirmed or refuted. I am afraid we do not know.
  Sir R. HORNE: It is not for me at this stage of the Debate to begin to enter into the details upon which these things are based—it is obvious that that would take far too much time—but at any rate this can be said broadly upon the whole subject, that it was gone into by
  872
  the Select Committee which studied this matter, and I think the House may very well accept these figures from them. I should like to add this, as one other broad consideration in connection with the finance of the Bill, that although times have changed since these designs were made, nevertheless all the various interests will be affected equally; that is to say, that so long as the proportions which are stated in the Bill are kept, then everybody comes down equally in this time of depression. There are only some outside interests, particularly the local interests which have got special consideration, which have to be assessed separately. But these are to be considered in the light of the amounts which are given to the others, and accordingly it seems that the scheme can all be worked out quite fairly. That is as much as I am going to say upon this recondite question of finance. I am not entirely ignorant of either finance in general or of the finance of some of the very important undertakings concerned in this matter, and I can assure the House with complete confidence not only that the finance of London transport will be greatly facilitated by an organisation such as is contemplated by this Bill, but that, on the contrary, unless we can get some such combination as is here suggested, the finance of London transport will become impossible.
  Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman be so kind as to inform the House of the number of years' purchase that are being paid? We have tried to find out, and we do not know. I am sure that my right hon. Friend must know.
  Sir R. HORNE: I have said that I cannot go into details in this matter. The Third Reading of the Bill is not the proper moment to ask me that question, and it is not my business to give details to the House. At any rate, the House can have some confidence in the committees which have sat on this matter and considered the question of finance, and I am perfectly certain that, on the broad issue, what I have stated is true. I come back to the main point to which I have asked the attention of the House. The finance of London transport cannot be managed upon the footing of existing conditions.

  873
  A rather prejudicial consideration which has been constantly urged by the opponents of this Measure in the House is that it is a Socialist Measure. More prejudice has been created against it by that single word than by any argument that has been advanced by anybody upon any actual Clause in the Bill. Mr. Herbert Morrison has been constantly quoted as saying that this was the thin end of the wedge of Socialism. There are a great many words that are loosely used, and if I might venture a suggestion, I am rather inclined to think that Mr. Herbert Morrison used that word as much to cajole the members of his own party as to frighten us. We ought to examine this Bill as it is presented without regard to descriptions of that kind. I am sure that the House will be perfectly willing to do that. I venture to say that if you do not have an arrangement for managing London traffic on the principle of complete combination you will inevitably lapse into real Socialism. Let me give something of the history of this subject. My hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham, using an American word, which is worse than any of the alleged American prepositions—the word "combine"— made a reference to the organisation to which I myself have the honour to belong. What is the history of that combination? I do not know whether the House realises that but for the prescience of those connected with the matter in buying up the London General Omnibus Company, the Underground Railways of London belonging to the Underground combination would have been in bankruptcy. London cannot do without that means of transport. What would then have had to happen? The State would have had to take them over, and that is what the State would still have to do if you played the fool with the organisation that you have got. You would get real Socialism then, real nationalisation.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Do I understand that the tubes, packed with passengers, are so badly run that they are run at a loss?
  Sir R. HORNE: They 'are not badly run. London gets cheap fares, and I hear protests that they may have to be raised under the new arrangements. Over all, London gets the cheapest fares in the world, and the 'advantage given to the
  874
  London passenger is greater than that enjoyed by the citizens of Paris, New York or Berlin. Think of the protests that would come if you began to suggest putting up fares. I must tell the House that it is only the combination with the London General Omnibus Company that has saved these particular railways from bankruptcy and from being taken over by the State.
  What has been the history since then? It may be said, "Very well, that was private enterprise, and private enterprise can still do these things." The fact that the organisation headed by Lord Ashfield took over the London General Omnibus Company did not prevent other omnibuses from coming or; the streets, and you had constantly new omnibuses—which were opprobriously called "pirates," but let me call them independent omnibuses-coming in to take 'a part of the traffic which the London General Omnibus Company had got. What did they do? Do you imagine that they went on to routes that did not pay? Nothing of the kind. They collected on routes which were the best paying, and if the General Omnibus Company had not been there to serve the outlying districts there were many districts in London which would not have had any omnibus traffic at all. It must be remembered that we are dealing with an enormous community for which transport must be provided, not merely on the routes that pay best, but on all the other routes that pay very badly or not at all. The outside people got the benefit of the good routes.
  What was the result? The London General Omnibus Company was constantly buying up these independent omnibuses in order to prevent this inroad upon their traffic, but that was a very costly process and could not go on for ever. Now there is some kind of safeguard by the licensing arrangement whereby not more omnibuses can be licensed than the licensing authority is willing to sanction. That, however, started when there was already a glut of omnibuses, and that is why you see today on some of the omnibus routes of the City 'an enormous congestion of omnibuses running half empty. My hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham asked what this Bill will do for congestion. Once all these interests are under one hand unnecessary omnibuses will not be kept running on those routes. They will supply

  875
  only the number of omnibuses that are necessary to carry the traffic. At the present time on the best routes far more omnibuses are running than are necessary. You can make great saving by getting all these interests under one combined authority. Surely that must be obvious.
  Let me come down to the present position. If London is to be served, there must be a constant development of transport systems which are necessary to meet the needs of the people, and you cannot always wait until the population is there. The Underground Railways have struck out into new suburban districts before the traffic was there to justify them, but they were bound to do it or it would have been impossible for them to meet the needs of the people when the demand came. How has that been done? Private enterprise could never have done it alone; it has had to seek the aid of the Government. It got the advantage of the trade facilities scheme by which many millions of money were borrowed. Upon another occasion they applied under a scheme of the late Socialist Government to obtain capital for these extensions. Why is that? The reason comes down to this, and this is the justification of this Bill, that it is impossible to find the capital necessary for the carrying on of the transport system of London unless upon the basis of the whole asset of London transport. You cannot do it as long as it is in competitive sections. My hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham, with great fairness and sincerity, no doubt, but, I think, not fully recognising the position which those of us who are dealing with these matters have had to meet and confront, says, "Let us have healthy competition."
  I tell the House with knowledge that, in a situation such as we have, where it is necessary to have transport for such an enormous community, you cannot get the capital necessary to run healthy competition and meet the growing needs of this expanding community. You cannot get it except on the basis of a monopoly. Nothing less than the whole asset of London transport can form the basis of the finance which you require in order to make that transport effective. That is the position we have got to-day. It is the reason this Bill is here. I have had
  876
  intimate connection with this matter, and I am talking from knowledge. The Blue Report of 1927 to which my hon. Friend referred undoubtedly is the starting point for the consideration of the whole question. The Committee which drew up that report found that chaos and confusion could not be allowed to continue, and they asserted two things—that you must have a common fund, and that you must have common management. That is to say, you must have a fund out of which all interests can be compensated, because many parts of the transport system must necessarily be run at a loss and yet these cannot be done without. Many tramways in London to-day are running at a dead loss, and if you take them away, and do not provide something in their place, you will rob a large section of the community of its necessary form of transport. These things go on all the time. Therefore, you must have a pool out of which all the means of transport can be financed. A common pool is the first consideration.
  The next thing is common management and that, of course, is necessary because you wish to be able to shut down a glut of omnibuses in one place and shut up an unnecessary tramline in another in order to make the organisation operate at a profit. But my hon. Friend, having announced these two propositions, amazes me by saying, "The merit of that report and the merit of the scheme that followed upon it was that there was no compulsion upon anybody." How can you make a co-ordinated organisation to operate the traffic of a town like London without compulsion? If I am managing a tramway system and refuse to come into the combination, what can you do with me? Without compulsion, where does common management come in? Then my right hon. Friend referred to the common pool, but if I am in control of an omnibus system and say that I will not pool with him, where does his common pool come in if he cannot compel me to become a part of the arrangement?
  Reference has been made to previous Bills. In 1929 there were produced on the Floor of this House and afterwards sent to a Committee, Bills backed by the Underground Electric Company and the London County Council, but these were purely enabling Bills. They enabled the parties to enter into an arrangement for

  877
  co-ordinating the traffic of London, but there were no compulsory powers. I was concerned in many consultations on the Clauses of those Bills, and from the first we saw that their weakness was that we could not apply compulsion and that small owners or interests could easily defeat the whole scheme. Even at the last, if I remember rightly, we had not got a binding arrangement between the London County Council and the combination of underground railways and omnibuses. How, then, could it be certain that those Bills would succeed. I venture to say to the House that the present Bill is a great advance upon those Measures. I do not say it is perfect in its details, because there are many things in it which I would like to alter, but it is far better than anything which has yet been brought forward. When people call it a Socialist Measure I reply that I am not afraid of names.
  What are the objections which are to be taken to this Bill? It is said that the shareholders are not very well treated and will not be quite certain of their returns; but the same hon. Member who referred with sympathy to the shareholders seemed quite prepared to destroy them when it came to the terms on which the shareholders were to be dealt with. I think the shareholders have been wise to accept the terms. Indeed, in the combination with which I am connected, the whole of them accepted the terms at meetings at which they had an opportunity to voice their views. I am perfectly certain that their hopes are not extravagant, but, as compared with the old cut-throat competitive system, this Bill will afford them a measure of security which otherwise they would not have had. As to the local authorities, I feel that they have been put in a very excellent position. Two members of the local authorities are to be upon this very small management board.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS: No, they are in the electoral college.
  Sir R. HORNE: Well, two of them are in the position of assisting to choose the members of the Board. I thank my hon. Friend for his interjection. Two of them are members of the electoral college; and on the Traffic Advisory Board, which is the most powerful element, it seems to
  878
  me, in the whole of this system, there are about 23 representatives of local authorities out of 40; so they are in a position to dominate every situation as it arises, and in particular they are in a position to move the Minister, the Railway Bates Tribunal and the Advisory Board and to make representations such as they feel may be necessary in the circumstances. So far as the public are concerned, their rights are entirely defended, as it appears to me, because upon all questions of rates, the adequacy of the services and the proper running and development of the system, there is an appeal to the Railway Bates Tribunal, and I know of no more practical body of a judicial kind in this country. So the public are safeguarded.
  Then, what is the position of the four main railway lines running into London from outside? People have talked about Socialism in connection with this Bill, but I do not think there are any bodies more averse to anything in the shape of Socialism or nationalisation than the boards of the four great railway companies. It is a thing they abhor and detest, as my hon. Friends opposite very well know. What action did they take in regard to the Bill? They have been so convinced of the necessity of combination in the organisation of London transport that they have pooled their receipts from the local traffic of London, and have taken upon themselves the burden of guaranteeing the Metropolitan Railway Company a certain dividend upon its stocks for a period of years. I am amused at the kind of criticism passed upon the main line railway companies. One speaker gets up to say "This is something in favour of the railway companies," and another speaker, sitting beside him, gets up to say "How you are throwing away the interests of the railway shareholders without consulting them, making them give a guarantee which they would not have given if they knew about it! "Those two statements cannot live together. I am a director of a main line railway company, and I can tell the House with the greatest possible candour why it is that we have become a party to this scheme. It is because we are absolutely convinced that the transport of London cannot be managed if there are anything like competing interests in the area. I think that I have

  879
  said enough to commend this Bill to the House. The chief objection which I had to the original Bill was that it left it to the Minister to elect the board to manage this scheme. I saw in that, a very dangerous innovation, because it meant political control of a great industrial organisation, and as soon as you bring in political control, with the possibility of appointments being made from political motives rather than from those which ought to guide men in the conduct of a commercial or industrial organisation, you not only create difficulty but you create danger. This Bill eliminates what, in my view, was the worst element in the original Bill presented by Mr. Morrison, by providing that an outside body shall elect the board. It provides, also, that in all quarrels or controversies that arise an outside body like the Railway Rates Tribunal is to decide what ought to be done. This Bill, so far as I can read it, completely eliminates political influence. I say "So far as I can read it." I cannot imagine that the Minister is in a position to do anything more than is purely administrative.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS: He has power of
  dismissal.
  Sir R. HORNE: For incompetence, or for some other very good reason; but one cannot imagine that a Minister is going to use his power to get rid of people for political reasons when they are doing their work well.
  Mr. BOYCE: The Minister cannot select who is to take the place of anyone he dismisses.
  Sir R. HORNE: I really cannot believe that we are committing to the Minister any 1 power which he can in any way use unscrupulously, and accordingly I venture to think that the worst elements of the old Bill have been removed. I hope that my colleagues on these benches will agree that I am not a bad exponent of the Conservative faith, and I hope they will think, also, that I am not unduly tainted with the Socialist faith. But let me say this about Conservatism. In the Conservative party we have never been ruled by dogma; we were never doctrinaires. We always took a different attitude to the affairs of life from that of the
  880
  Liberals. They have been dominated in their political allegiance by words like "Peace, retrenchment and reform," without regard to the particular circumstances to which they had to apply them. Provided the great constitutional doctrines of our party were observed, we were always prepared to meet every situation as it arose, and, without undue regard to fetishes, come to a practical result. Conservatism is much more an attitude of mind than a creed or a doctrine. Anyone who looks back over the last century will find that it was always Conservative statesmen who were responsible for the great changes made in the lives of the people, often by actions which were objected to by all the doctrinaires of the Manchester School. Sometimes when I am listening to speeches from these benches I am inclined to think that some of my hon. Friends are reverting to the laissez faire doctrine which we long ago disowned.
  In dealing with the problems facing us to-day we have to take things as we find them. I am no lover of monopoly, but I tell the House frankly that you cannot manage London's transport without a monopoly. Of course, we must safeguard the people. But you cannot finance these great undertakings, or provide for the necessary developments which London demands, unless you get as the basis of your finance the whole asset of London transport; and I do not think I am erring against Tory doctrine if, when I find myself faced with a practicable proposition like this, I advise the House, with full conviction, to accept the Bill presented to it.
  6.14 p.m.
  Miss PICKFORD: As a Member for a London Division, largely a dormitory area, I feel that I should be doing less than my duty to my constituents if I did not express the great apprehension which I feel about this Bill. Like the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home), I am not afraid of the bogy-man of Socialism being raised if it is a Measure which will produce what is good for the people, but I cannot convince myself that this Measure will be for their benefit. We have been told that great changes have been made in this Bill, but I cannot feel that what was a wicked Socialist Measure when it was left to the Minister

  881
  to appoint seven members to the board becomes a perfectly innocuous national Measure when the appointing trustees select seven persons to the same kind of board to carry out the same policy. I dislike the powers of the board. It is the creation of a monopoly that I fear, and I fear it in the interests of the travelling public. I do not wish for one moment to go over the arguments that have already been brought forward, but I fail to understand how, if trams are run at a loss or if the Underground Railway is run at a loss, the omnibuses are to make up those losses without some enlargement and increase in the fares to the travelling public.
  The experience of the House and of history will show that a monopoly has never been in the interests of the people as a whole, and that it has not produced a plentiful and cheap service, but far otherwise; that it has been not only the competition from outside but the fear of the competition from outside that has, all over the country, kept the transport services more or less up to date. Probably there is not one of us but can bring forward instances of where the existing transport, whether it be tram or rail, has not been improved by the competition of the independent omnibuses coming from outside and by being obliged by that competition to make improvements in methods and working. This Bill creates a monopoly as regards road and rail both above ground and under ground.
  By a new Clause which was introduced yesterday, and which I welcomed, that monopoly is extended to water. That was inevitable because, under the existing law, the London County Council was the only power that could put boats on the river and had not done so, and unless those powers, before vested in the London County Council, had been transferred to the board, there would not have been any possibility of using them. That Clause also provided that if the board did not or would not provide those facilities, they should be provided by private enterprise. There is only one element which is left for private enterprise, and I hope that I, as well as other hon. Members, may live to see the day when an enterprising private company puts the first service of aerobuses into the air.
  882
  I feel the gravest apprehension as to what will be the future for the travelling public and as to whether they will have the same facilities. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead has said that many omnibuses will inevitably be taken off, because in certain parts of the route they do not run to full capacity. Is it the case that they do not run in other parts of the route to full capacity Is it likely that any company would run omnibuses which were not required? It would be far too great a financial undertaking. Therefore, it is inevitable, as he said, that services will be decreased. I fear also that it is inevitable that fares will be increased. The right hon. Gentleman, referring to the financial arrangements, said that the Third Reading was not the appropriate time to enter into details. The whole of the House will agree with him on that, because the financial arrangements ought to have been made clear to the House at a very much earlier moment. We are obliged to accept or reject this Bill very much in ignorance of what those financial provisions will be, and without knowing what the financial provisions will be it is impossible to tell what will be the effect of them upon the travelling public.
  In those circumstances I could not possibly vote in support of this Bill. The hon. Member for West Lewisham (Sir P. Dawson) said that he quoted a resolution which he had received from his local council. If I had received a similar resolution from the borough of Hammersmith, which I represent, I should have felt obliged to go into the Lobby in support of the Resolution which was moved by the hon. Member for East Fulham (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan) and supported by the hon. Member for West Lewisham. But as the Borough of Hammersmith has not sent forward such a resolution—I fear that many in Hammersmith are not aware of the dangers to which this Bill exposes them and therefore have not voiced their objections—I shall abstain from voting.
  6.20 p.m.
  Sir S. CRIPPS: The hon. Lady the Member for North Hammersmith (Miss Pickford) has based her objections to the Bill upon the monopoly which is granted to the board. She seems to view with apprehension the granting of any monopoly for anything. Surely this House and this country have become sufficiently

  883
  accustomed to municipal monopolies and other monopolies of all kinds, where it has been found essential in the interests of the population to take over essential services, and to take them out of the area of private profit and private enterprise. We may, even in matters of transport, look to such great areas as Birmingham, where, no doubt under the guidance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the complete monopoly has been granted to the municipality as regards the whole of the transport facilities within the town and area of Birmingham. I have never heard it suggested that that great monopoly enterprise does not deal adequately with the traffic problems of Birmingham, and does not supply the citizens with an ample and cheap form of transport.
  The speech which interested me enormously was that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Billhead (Sir R. Home). We there see the inexorable logic of experience leading him along the path to Socialism. He is one who has been at the centre—I should say at least two centres—around which this Bill circulates; first of all, the London traffic combine, and then the great main line railways. He told us that there were only two alternatives—some form of combination such as the present one, or bankruptcy and taking over by the State. We appreciate, of course, that the end of all capitalist enterprise is not the grave but bankruptcy and then taking over by the State, and the right hon. Gentleman realises that as well as we do.
  Sir R. HORNE: That applies only to the foolish capitalist.
  Sir S. CRIPPS: I should not like to suggest that he was in that category. That is no doubt why he is starting along the far better course of Socialism, at which goal we hope he will arrive. Then he will join this side of the House rather than remain where he is. The reasons which he pointed out, and which are perfectly sound reasons, were really that it is absolutely essential from a financial point of view that the whole of the London traffic area should be run as one single transport undertaking. Otherwise you could not possibly get the capital which is constantly required for the extension of the services into new areas, and for maintaining the increased services that are constantly demanded by
  884
  the population of London. In order to bring about that single body, it is, as he pointed out, absolutely essential to have compulsory powers.
  The alternative solution was suggested, I think, in 1928 or 1929, when the Traffic Combine and the London County Council brought forward an enabling Bill, which everybody must have realised could not possibly have worked, because they would have left outside the area of the combination a whole lot of independent bodies that would have been able to butt into their area and to take away portions of lucrative traffic which at all times would have led to a great hazard for the large central enterprise. It is that necessity for providing transport, not because it produces a profit but as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, because it is wanted by the people of London, that leads to the necessity of basing the board upon a monopoly. That monopoly must either be a monopoly in the hands of private individuals, or, in some form or another, must be run for the public good, and not merely for the private good.
  We believe that this Bill as it stands is tending to make the worst of both worlds. It is neither accomplishing a real public service under public ownership, which is one logical method of carrying it out, nor is it making it a great private trust monopoly, which might be another way of doing the same thing—we think a very inefficient way, and one which is not likely to lead to the best development of London transport. The one factor which we think it is most unfortunate to find removed from this Bill, is the factor of what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead called "political control." I fail to understand the mentality which always looks upon Ministers as potentially unscrupulous people, even Conservative Ministers, whereas a banker, chartered accountant, or lawyer is always, apparently, a scrupulous person.
  Sir R. HORNE: A banker acts for excellent banking reasons, but politicians do not always act in the best interests of the State.
  Sir S. CRIPPS: There are some people who believe that banking reasons are not always in the best interests of the State. A great many people have stood up in this House and said so from time to time.

  885
  Even the right hon. Gentleman himself has said that the policy of the Bank of England has not always been in the best national interest. All I am saying is that there is no reason why one should suspect Ministers of behaving in a less desirable way as regards the appointment of persons to run a board, than a representative of the banks, the chairman or president of the Law Society or anybody else. A very important aspect of the problem is how far the public are going to be able to control. The right hon. Gentleman, I imagine, approves of this Bill strongly because there is an element of public rather than private control; it is a public board which is going to provide service, not in the interests of shareholders, but in the interests of the travelling public of London, which he said in his speech was the essential thing. If that be so, we believe it is essential that there should be some element of Parliamentary control in order to exercise that public control, and that it cannot be exercised in any other way. That is why we are so opposed to the setting up of what I may call this comic opera system of appointing trustees. Its only counterpart is to be found in the "Times," and that does not seem to us to be any very good reason for keeping it in a London Transport Bill.
  There are, however, other reasons why we believe that this Bill is not nearly as good as the one which preceded it. I do not want at this stage to go into any of the details of those reasons, but I do want to draw the attention of the House to one aspect of the matter. After the Bill had been through the gruelling experience of the Joint Select Committee, it came out as a Measure which had been considered by the semi-judicial mind of the Joint Select Committee after long and careful argument. The Government then made a great many alterations, but all from one side, and they converted it into what we believe is now a lop-sided Bill. If the whole thing had been reconsidered, if all the financial provisions and everything else had been reconsidered, there might have been some reason for going into the entire matter again. We think it was most unfortunate that only. the Conservative mind was brought to bear on it after it had been through the Joint Select Committee, and not a national mind in any sense of the
  886
  word. That has been perfectly obvious as the Bill has gone through this House.
  Then the question arises whether what is left of the Bill, in the form in which it now remains, is worth supporting or not, and, on the whole, we have come to the conclusion that, in view of the desperate straits of the London traffic problem, it is essential for the people of London that some co-ordinated monopoly should be set up. This form of co-ordinated monopoly is not the one that we should have liked. We think that it has no relation to Socialism, except as a faroff passage to Socialism. We agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it cannot be called Socialism. Nevertheless, in view of the fact that it does offer some approach to a solution of the problem, we certainly shall not go into the Lobby against it.
  6.34 p.m.
  Sir WILLIAM RAY: I am rather interested in the statements made by the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps), because I think he is paving the way for a retreat for the party which was originally responsible for this Measure when its full unpopularity becomes apparent. The hon. and learned Gentleman is going to support the Bill, but, at the same time, he points out certain defects which are in it now and were not in. it when it was frankly known as a Socialist Measure; and so, when London passengers, in all probability, find fares increased and facilities reduced, the party opposite will be in a position to say to London, "If only our Measure had been the one that was adopted by the House of Commons, and not a Measure emasculated by the Conservative party, this failure would not have been brought about." I congratulate the hon. and learned Gentleman on being able to find a way of retreat even before the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament.
  I followed with enormous interest the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home), for whom, it is unnecessary for me to say, I have a deep admiration. I followed with interest his history of the London traffic problem. If it had been addressed to a gathering of London Members, I think it might have been of great interest to us all, but probably the right hon. Gentle-

  887
  man thought that there were so many Members in the House who were not London Members that it was necessary to have a review of the traffic problem in recent years. So far as his review was historical, I find myself in complete agreement with it, but so far 'as it leads up to the Bill which is before the House to-day, I am afraid I cannot find myself in full agreement with the right hon. Gentleman. To-day we are not asked to deal with the problem of the co-ordination of London traffic. This House agreed in 1929 that co-ordination of London traffic was desirable and essential, and, therefore, it is no use pleading for the Bill to-day on the ground that, unless we get this Bill, we shall get nothing. Ways have been pointed out of dealing with the unification of London traffic without introducing a compulsory Measure of this kind. If the Bills of 1929 had been accepted as readily by the then Conservative Government as the Socialist Bill has been accepted by the present National Government, the case might have been different, but there is a great difference in the way in which the respective Bills have been received by the two parties. The avidity with which the National Government have seized upon this Measure is amazing, but, nevertheless, it is there, and we must face it.
  If the 1929 Bills had passed—they did pass, but, owing to procedure, they had to come before the new Socialist House of Commons—we should have had by now, or at all events within the next year or two, a proof of the value of co-ordinated working and management, because there is no doubt whatever that the heads of agreement between the London County Council and the Underground Group in 1929 had been arrived at. We should have had an opportunity of judging by now as to the real value of a semi-monopoly, and it would have guided us as to whether the monopoly proposed to-day would be of real value to London or not. We have seen the establishment of gigantic trading undertakings in this country since the War. We can all mention great industrial corporations, tremendous in their magnitude, and we all know that they are not really the successes that were anticipated.
  I dread the establishment, without previous experience on a smaller scale, of a gigantic monopoly of this kind at the
  888
  expense of London. If hon. Gentlemen opposite have their way, and if the Front Bench has its way, it cannot stop at London. The problem is as vital in Lancashire, in Yorkshire, in the Midlands, and in some parts of Scotland, and I am sure that the Minister of Transport will have his hands full of Traffic Board Bills for the next two years following on this precedent. I, for one, regret that this great area of London, with its teeming millions and with its excellent traffic facilities to-day, should be selected for an experiment without a smaller experiment being tried first, as could usefully have been done in the way suggested only two or three years ago. If I wanted to make a speech against this Bill, I should read from the OFFICIAL REPORT the proceedings when the Conservative party en masse opposed this Bill. I say "this Bill" advisedly, because the Conservative party opposed the Bill on six counts, and on only two counts—the last two mentioned in the Resolution—has any alteration taken place. I make no apology for referring to the Conservative party in this connection, because, in the case of a Bill in which I was interested, namely, the Bill of last year dealing with Waterloo Bridge, one Member of the Government opposed another Member of the Government, and the Member of the Government who opposed the Bill appealed to the Conservative party on this side for support. Therefore, I have no hesitation in asking the Conservative party now—
  Mr. McGOVERN: On the Front
  Bench?
  Sir W. RAY: Even on the Front Bench; but I do not think I should get their support. I maintain that the Conservative party opposed the Bill in 1931, not on the details which we have been amending during the last few weeks, but on principle. The principle of public ownership cannot be eliminated from this Bill. It is a principle which even the hon. and learned Gentleman who is leading the Opposition to-day cannot deny is what his party stands for, and it is on that point that the Conservative party are again making a concession to Socialist principles which some of us, at all events, find it very difficult to follow.
  It has been said that this is not in the interests of the shareholders. Most of us who are concerned with London affairs

  889
  are interested in London government problems from the point of view of the London citizen, but, if this Bill and its financial implications is not in the interests of shareholders first, I want to know what is. The very financial provisions of the Bill, standing as they are, point to the fact that the first negotiator, the late Minister of Transport, was overwhelmed by the qualities and calibre of the gentlemen who were conducting the negotiations from the other side. We asked some time ago—it was a very small request—that the Bill should go back to the Committee for the purpose of investigating its financial provisions, but, because the Metropolitan Railway and the main line railways had come in, that request was refused. We feel to-day that Sir William McLintock's revised figure for the eight years succeeding the first two years, showing a miserable £158,000 surplus, is a very small estimate indeed on which any successful undertaking could capably work. The Minister in charge would not even recommit the Bill on that one point.
  We feel that inasmuch as the undertaking has to be made to pay, it will be made to pay at the expense of the London passenger. There are bound to be increased fares; there are bound to be decreased facilities. The board can raise fares, because they take over the statutory rights of the various undertakings, and many of the undertakings are not charging the fares allowed by Statute to-day. It is true that the local authorities can appeal, but, inasmuch as the board must make the undertaking pay, and if the present fares are raised because they are not statutory fares, it is perfectly obvious that the fares can go up willy-nilly, and we have no guarantee that the fares to which London has been educated in the last 12 years—the midday fares, the 1s. all-day fares, the holiday facilities and all the rest—granted both by the omnibus companies and by the London County Council, are going to be continued by those who will be responsible for running this undertaking.
  As a very old Member of the Conservative party who worked for it outside for many years before I had the honour of coming into this House, it is a very deep regret to me to find myself in opposition to men with whom I have worked for so many years, but I fail to see how one
  890
  would be doing one's duty by London, which has elected me for nearly 21 years to the London County Council, and to the people of London, by acquiescing in the passage of a Bill in which one does not believe in principle, and, leaving the question of principle out altogether, a Bill which one believes is unsound financially and, which, in the long run, will prove unfair to the travelling public in every possible way.
  Sir R. HORNE: May I ask my hon. Friend—I trust his judgment—one question before he sits down? Would he put restrictions to-day upon private enterprises who were desirous of raising their fares in order to meet their charges, and, if he would, what would become of the freedom of private enterprise?
  Sir W. RAY: If private enterprise is not compelled by a monopoly to go into an undertaking, I leave private enterprise to do exactly as it likes, and the public would take its revenge on private enterprise.
  Sir R. HORNE: You might have a big rise in fares to-day.
  6.48 p.m.
  Sir PERCY HARRIS: The Bill has had a long and stormy passage. It has been before the House of Commons for nearly two years, and I do not think it is untrue to say that, as it proceeds on its journey, it does not collect more friends. It certainly collects some new friends, but not more friends. Even its parents seem to a certain extent, to have lost affection for it. My hon. and learned Friend opposite does not like it in its changed form and he is prepared now to disown its parentage. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) has gone, after interrupting my hon. Friend below the Gangway, but I want to refer to his speech. I am sorry to have to do so in his absence. He is always brilliant, persuasive and understanding and has great knowledge of the traffic problem, and it is always very interesting to me when a Glasgow Member butts into our London problem. We do not object to Members from other parts of the country butting in especially if the object is to give us a better service, a better organisation and a better undertaking. I could not help wondering, when the right hon. and learned Gentle-

  891
  man was speaking, what Glasgow would have had to say if a Bill of this character had been introduced—I am glad to see the right hon. and learned Gentleman is back—and had been passed through this House taking over the Glasgow tramways, the underground and the main line services for local purposes. I wonder whether he would like to see an electoral college drawn, not from the solicitors but from the learned society which is equivalent in Scotland, the Scottish Banks and one or two other bodies.
  Sir R. HORNE: I cannot promise to stay for all the hon. Member's remarks. The answer is, that he must deal with each question upon its merits.
  Sir P. HARRIS: I have never been very keen on Scottish Home Rule, but the constant intervention with the suggestion that Scottish Members can tell us how to run London government almost reconciles me to the loss of the services of Scottish Members, at any rate in local matters. But I think that we have this in common. We say that London is entitled to the same kind of service and consideration as other parts of the country. I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that there is much to be said in favour of private enterprise. In competition the strongest and most efficient succeeds, and the weakest and incompetent goes to the wall. It does give the public a choice of services. If the public at present are not satisfied with municipal tramways, they can travel by the London General omnibuses or the various varieties which offer their services in different parts of London. This is where I stand. If it is necessary for the convenience of the public, and to get efficiency, to have a monopoly, if a case can be made out, it should not, as I have always maintained, be a private monopoly. I am surprised that my hon. and learned Friend opposite did not take exactly the same lines. It should not be run for private profit, but should be a public authority under public control and amenable to public requirements. This is a gigantic trust run for profit in the interests of a great variety of shows. The Minister in charge to-day, almost for the first time, attempted, perhaps wisely, to elaborate the financial side of the proposal. There are five different kinds of stockholders all with
  892
  various claims to the profits of the undertaking. The percentage ranges from 4½ to possibly 6½ per cent. at a time when money is available at 3½ per cent. There is a queer mixture of five different kinds of stockholders—"A" shareholders, "B" shareholders, "T.F.A." shareholders, "LA." shareholders, and, last but not least, the "C" shareholders, who, for the first two years, can claim 5 per cent. as a reward for their investment and even, should the undertaking be a success, can claim no less than 6 per cent. It is a very good opportunity for the investment of capital.
  It is not a public authority; it is an ordinary business undertaking. The only difference is that the board is to be elected in a peculiar way. I am not sure whether it makes it better for shareholders or the public, if on the whole you are going to have a more efficient board and a more efficiently run undertaking, if the board is responsible to somebody. I would rather have the board responsible to shareholders to be called to task at the annual meeting than responsible to no one, and even not responsible to the House of Commons. This is rather an interesting experiment. I hope that it will be a success. I wish it were in the interests of the travelling public. I hope it will not be made a precedent, as it is thoroughly unsound.
  The real difficulty in London is the peculiarity of its system of government. If we had a homogeneous council like that of a provincial city we should have a place for an experiment of this kind. In Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow they are able to manage the whole of their service transport. They run omnibuses and trams which are under public control and in contact with the public. I recognise that this is where the difficulty in London lies. First of all, we have a coordinated system of government inside the county, and outside the county we have a conglomeration of all kinds of authorities, councils, urban districts and municipalities. That is, of course, the justification for the Bill, but even that is not insuperable. I fail to appreciate the prejudice against a directly elected board. We have had experiments of the kind already. Not only have they been successful, but they have given satisfaction to the public and to the ratepayers

  893
  in the areas concerned. There is the Metropolitan Water Board. I know that my friend Mr. Herbert Morrison has been very contemptuous about the Water Board, but, on the whole, London has a good water supply, and the quality is as good as that of any other part of the country or of the world. There is the experiment of the London docks. Before the Port of London Authority was created, the London docks were a disgrace and a scandal and subject to all sorts of criticism. With the Port of London Authority, London, in spite of the general depression, has an efficient service, has maintained its trade, and, on the whole, has given general satisfaction to the traders, the users, the shipowners and all the interests concerned. It is unfortunate, if it is necessary to have a monopoly of this kind and, in the interests of the travelling public, necessary to unify all the various interests, that there should not be an authority created which is not in contact with the people who are so dependent for a good service on the machinery of organisation.
  There is, perhaps, a more serious side to this question. We have heard this afternoon a good deal about the congestion of the streets and how the various trams and omnibuses are held up because there are too many vehicles on the road. The only way to improve the position is to widen the streets. One of our troubles in the past has been the divorce between those running the services and those responsible for street widening. We are approaching this problem on wrong lines. I think that the late Minister of Transport, Mr. H. Morrison, wanted to embark upon a new experiment in the hope of compromising various interests. Compromise is always unsatisfactory. I am afraid that in the long run the travelling public will suffer. There will be no opportunity for them to ventilate grievances, but if fares are raised, or, as is perhaps more likely, facilities are decreased because of the necessity of meeting the claims of stockholders,' there will be no power to redress grievances because contact between local authorities is so indirect and nominal that it will not be felt by boards sitting in solitude quite out of contact with them. I hope that the Bill will do what its creators hope
  894
  for it. I hope that it will, but I cannot say that the particular scheme has my approval.
  7.0 p.m.
  Major GLYN: The hon. Baronet who preceded me began his speech by somewhat objecting to persons not connected immediately with London traffic, intervening in this Debate. I would like to remind him that this is not a problem in London only. It is one of the greatest problems in the world to-day and is exercising the minds of those who are responsible in Chicago, New York, Berlin and Paris. The problem is world-wide in its scope. Another point which has not been mentioned is the intimate connection between the solution of transportation and housing. Unless you have got housing available in the cheapest manner, it means that you have got to provide efficient transport, or you will not be able to have your workers and artisans living in outlying areas. Therefore it is not merely a question of transportation. It is a question of social well-being, and it is a question, to my mind, of paramount importance.
  I have listened with some amazement to my friends who call themselves Conservatives. It seems to me that a great many of their arguments were directed entirely against private enterprise. I do not quite know what label to tie round my neck these days, nor do I particularly care what label I tie, provided certain definite principles in which I believe are carried out. I believe that in these days public utility companies are going to have a larger and larger part. I would like to see the private money of individual citizens invested, preferably, in concerns and undertakings which are to the public good. I understand by public utility something which must be subject to control, something in which an investor can be sure of getting a fair return for his investment. I, therefore, strongly object to it being thought that those who may be Conservatives, or whatever is the label, have any objection to compulsion being used, if it is in the public interest to use compulsion—provided always that the people who are compelled shall have the right that their property shall get a fair return or, if not a fair return, a fair equivalent which shall be decided by an entirely impartial body. One hon. Member—I think it was

  895
  the hon. Member for West Lewisham (Sir P. Dawson)—spoke of Tillings—an admirable organisation—not being fairly treated. Hon. Members will see that there is power in the Bill to go to the arbitrator appointed by the Lord Chancellor who will be able to give to any applicant absolutely fair terms and conditions. I do not think, therefore, that we ought to be swayed because of the statement that by this Bill that kind of people will not have a fair deal, or will not have their position considered by an entirely impartial authority.
  There is one other matter which, I think, is of great importance. I do not look upon this Bill as a political Measure. I try to look upon it as a tremendous economic problem to be solved on commonsense lines. It is utterly impossible to build a tube railway if you are to have on the surface an uncontrolled stream of omnibuses which will rob the tube of the whole of the traffic. It costs £1,000,000 a mile to build a tube. It costs a comparatively small sum to buy an omnibus. In the rush hours you cannot deal with the population who have to get in and out to their work, unless you use the tube railways. We have not the problem they have in New York where every fresh skyscraper means 20 minutes hard packing in the subway. They have all to go home and leave at the same time. They can only go by various means, some on the surface and some underground. Each skyscraper means congestion by the population of that skyscraper in the overfull subways. We have not been able, in this country, to devise a commonsense arrangement whereby people would go to work, and return from it, at slightly different hours. Everybody rushes in between eight and nine o'clock, and it is not recognised that of the 100 per cent. of the underground staff utilised in the rush hours only half are required to meet normal requirements. About 25 per cent. more are used for the shopping hours and lunch time, but you have to provide 50 per cent. on your normal requirements for rush-time traffic.
  I was twitted just now by the hon. Member for East Fulham (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan), because I made a speech against the Bill when introduced. A great many of us did. I am in favour of this Bill because it is an entirely different Bill. It would be extraordinary if,
  896
  after so many changes in this Bill and so many excellent Amendments moved in Committee and on the Report stage, one was so foolish and churlish as not to recognise it is a different instrument. It will accomplish what we all want—the co-ordination of transport in London, and it will bring about something which will be for the improvement of housing and the health, especially, of everybody who works in London.
  I do hope that when this Measure goes to another place it will not be unduly delayed because of what is at stake. The sooner this Bill is passed the sooner it will be possible for the main line railways to undertake the electrification of their suburban lines. Plans are ready in some instances, but it is impossible to spend the millions of money necessary to electrify the suburban lines to the north and east of London until there is some definite, concrete, orderly scheme such as is embodied in this Bill. If this Bill becomes law, plans will immediately be undertaken for the electrification of these lines, which means giving employment to the heavy industries, and locally to many men. It is just the work that employs all sorts of labour. Until this Bill becomes law, that gigantic amount of work, which will be given to factories and workshops, will be held up. This Bill is needed not only from the point of view that it is long overdue, but it is needed to start again a great many industrious operatives, who are out of work and will obtain employment the moment this Bill becomes law.
  7.9 p.m.
  Sir GEORGE GILLETT: As one of the London Members, representative of great travelling interests—not only of those in the borough I represent who travel to many parts of London, but the population of from 100,000 to 200,000 people who come into the central borough of Finsbury to find their daily occupation—I have no hesitation in supporting the principles of this Measure. Not only has my connection been with London as the representative of a central Division but, like other Members, I have had the privilege for a number of years of serving on the London County Council. I confess that I have heard with a good deal of amazement some of the speeches delivered this afternoon. For some years I was member of the Highways Committee of

  897
  the London County Council. I remember especially—it seems to me a long time ago—a meeting of that committee which was authorised to consider the traffic position of London.
  A fact impressed upon my mind was that every person, to whatever party he belonged—whether Conservative, Liberal or Labour—was definitely of opinion that the traffic problem of London was going to be solved only if we had one authority in complete control of the whole of the traffic problem. I have, therefore, been surprised to hear the speeches of hon. Members about the possibility of private enterprises competing one with another. I think it is impossible to solve the traffic problem on these lines. It is no more possible to talk about private enterprises with competing policies than it would be to say that you should have two electric light companies and two gas companies putting down competing services in a town to see that the services should be kept as cheap as possible. I need hardly remind my hon. Friends connected with the London County Council that 10 or 15 years ago we had a great problem that beset the London County Council. It was that the London County Council had, in previous years, invested large sums of money in municipal tramway services. To-day there is something like £8,000,000 of capital unpaid, which was incurred for the laying down and purchase of that system.
  I remember the days of Sir John Benn, who was a great believer in the tramway system. It was believed by many men, well qualified to form an opinion, that the future of London traffic lay with the tramway services. Then there came into existence the omnibuses, and some of us who lived in certain streets learned the blessings of private enterprise by having our houses shaken by the competing private omnibuses. The two systems, of tramways and omnibuses, the one private and the other municipal, competed for our custom. At last an arrangement was made to cut down to a certain extent the losses of both parties. I believe it is essential to have one service. I think the experience of London has proved that you have changing traffic conditions. The fact that the London County Council have, rightly or wrongly, expended a large amount of money in
  898
  order to purchase their tramway system naturally inclines them to adhere to that system. But there are many towns where the tramways have been pulled up, and, in many parts of the country, it may have been a wise thing to do.
  You cannot move the population of London without having the tramway service, but you have, at the same time, to consider that now you have tubes also. You have the tramways, the omnibuses and the tubes and you will have one hand upon this threefold service deciding which is the most effective in moving the great population of London. If that hand is specially interested in one service, and not so interested in the others you will never get your traffic system adapted as rapidly as possible. The time may come when those responsible for the traffic problem of London may see that the day of the tramway is over. They may find some millions of money still unpaid, but it may be quite possible for them to divert the stream of traffic into the new tube or omnibus systems so that they will be able to refund the tramway debt out of their income. Under the old system to which I have referred, where you had two distinct financial systems, such a change was impossible and it resulted simply in the fact that the people of London who had put their money into tramways had to keep up the roads in order that motor traffic might go along them. I have no doubt that this matter has been fully recognised by those responsible for the government of London to-day.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green, South-West (Sir P. Harris) naturally pointed out that one of the great difficulties in London in regard to the kind of body that should be responsible for London traffic is partly due to the fact that we have no great municipal body that covers the large area represented by the traffic of London. He asked what Glasgow would think of a scheme of this kind in regard to its traffic. In Glasgow and other great cities there is a body that virtually covers the large traffic areas in which they are interested. Twenty years ago it seemed as if the London County Council might represent the kind of body of which I am thinking, but to-day we all know perfectly well that when you talk of the

  899
  problems of the traffic of London the London County Council area is far too small. Therefore, a municipal body became quite impossible.
  There have been discussions to-day as to what political party was responsible for the Bill which is now before the House. Like my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn), I am not specially smitten by any label that may be applied to me to-day. Possibly the original Measure was the work of Mr. Morrison, but I have sometimes wondered whether it was not true to say that, although the voice was the voice of Morrison, there was another hand in the fashioning of the original Measure, which might seem to have been more closely connected perhaps with the actual working of London traffic than even Mr. Morrison, and that we were not dealing really with a Measure specially drawn up by a Ministry of Transport entirely under the control of Mr. Morrison. In those days we were told by Mr. Morrison that this Measure was a Socialist Measure, and I agreed on that point. But it was very interesting to note that at the Labour Conference about a year ago when Mr. Morrison went down there and suggested that a Measure of this kind was a new kind of Socialism he was informed that that did not agree with the views of the members of the Labour party. Therefore, I have no idea whether that Measure could be said to be a Socialist Measure or not. But I do not think it matters very much now whether or not it was a Socialist Bill.
  The great essential thing is that you must have a Measure that is going to put the control of the whole of the traffic of London into the hands of a small body of people. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green, South-West, suggested that the Metropolitan Water Board had been a very successful experiment. I doubt whether we should find that the sort of people appointed on a body like the Water Board, representative of the municipalities, would be likely to supply the necessary driving power and initiative required for the management of the transport of this great area of London traffic. That is where I see a strong point in Mr. Morrison's original Bill. What is very essential, as every business man
  900
  knows, in regard to a great combine, is to be certain that you are going to have the control placed in the hands of four or five men who will direct its destinies. To-day we know how the appointments are to be made. I do not agree with the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) that the Bill has been so profoundly altered as he made out. The fundamental ideas that Mr. Morrison put forward are still in the Bill, and it will be a most interesting contribution to see, shall I say, a new form of organisation that is increasingly to be brought into existence for dealing with great problems of this kind.
  It may not be very long before the greater question of traffic all over the country will have to be tackled in a somewhat similar way to that in which we are tackling the London problem. If the hon. Member for Richmond (Sir W. Ray) will excuse my saying so, I do not think that he is logical in the line he has taken to-day. He stands in the public eye as a great apostle of economy. You are never going to have any economy in the competitive system which he has recommended to the House. Economy is possible only if you have a body similar to the one outlined in the Bill. Hon. Members have told us that the travelling facilities will be reduced. I believe they will be reduced. I do not believe that in this country or in this city we can afford to go on running extravagant traffic in order that people may say whether they would rather go in a tram or in an omnibus. I believe that our conditions to-day are such that we can no longer afford to provide facilities of that kind for the people, and that we shall have to reduce the number of vehicles. If some persons would like to go into an omnibus and there is a tram provided they will have to go in the tram, and we shall have to do that just as much for the purpose of economy in London traffic as for the purposes of economy that are being carried out in national and municipal, and also in private life.
  I believe it will be found that there will be very large economies effected as a result of the cohesion of traffic. It is on these grounds that I support the Measure. Although I do not entirely agree with all the recommendations, I can see no other plan for solving this traffic problem, or one more likely to do so, than that which

  901
  is put forward in the Bill. The question whether the Minister should or should not appoint is a secondary question. It is an interesting experiment. The fundamental principle remains that you have to take out of London traffic all the extravagance that you find in it to-day, and for that purpose you must have a coordinated system. It is on these grounds that I welcome the Measure.
  7.23 p.m.
  Mr. STRAUSS: I am sure that we have enjoyed the interesting speeches that have been made. There is one point on which the whole House is agreed, and that is that a supreme authority is to be set up in order to control and coordinate the passenger traffic of this great Metropolis. I would have much preferred a controlling body to an owning concern. It would have been interesting had the members of the London County Council who have spoken enlightened us a little more in regard to the great tramway system which they own and control. In my experience where a tramway is run in London the omnibus fares are moderate, but where the trams do not run the omnibus fares are much higher. It would have been interesting to know whether the London ratepayers are losing large sums of money or not on the tramway system. We should have been much obliged to the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) if he could have given us further information on this point.
  It is very difficult for a back bench Member to judge the financial scheme of this Measure. We have not the expert knowledge or the expert assistance that is at the disposal of the Government. They have access to the various contracts and the financial arrangements which are so necessary to bring about this great amalgamation. I was glad to hear from the Minister of Transport that he is confident that the financial scheme is sound and that it is all that it should be. I am a little apprehensive, seeing that the receipts of the Underground group are falling, that the receipts of the General Omnibus Company are falling and that certainly the dividends are falling. Therefore, I should have been pleased if there could have been a revaluation of the assets. It is unfortunate for the shareholders when they have to stand the risk of their property
  902
  depreciating, but I see no reason why they should get the same returns as when times were better.
  The feeling that I have is that the travelling public of London will have very little or nothing to say in regard to the fares. I know that there are ways and means of going before the Railway Rates Tribunal, but that means a very long and-tedious task to get the fares reduced. Therefore, I am a little concerned in regard to the finance of the Measure. I do not believe for one moment that there is the risk of a receiver being appointed. A far more formidable weapon in the hands of those who will control the board will be to raise the fares. I should like to hear from the Minister of Transport, or whoever replies for the Government, what power the travelling public possess in regard to keeping the fares at a reasonable level. The County Council trams have done much for the travelling public in this respect. They have kept the fares at a reasonable level, but when this amalgamation passes into law I am afraid that fares will be raised. I hope that the Government will consider the interests of the travelling public and will see that those interests are safeguarded. On those grounds, I shall have much pleasure in supporting the Bill.
  7.28 p.m.
  Mr. LESLIE BOYCE: I am very glad that this Bill is about to have its Third Reading. It is a very good and a very necessary Bill. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) expressed surprise that the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home), despite his great knowledge and experience of London transport, should have "butted in" on this Debate. The hon. Member for Lewisham West (Sir P. Dawson) was also critical of certain hon. Members who have participated in the Debate and who are not London representatives. It is an entirely new and novel doctrine to me that when a Measure comes before this House only those hon. Members whose constituents are directly and permanently affected thereby should participate in the Debate. The hon. Member for Richmond (Sir W. Ray) declared that if this Measure passes into law the fares must go up and the facilities for the travelling public in the London transport area must be curtailed. I do not share his apprehensions.

  903
  On the contrary, I am convinced that, by eliminating uneconomic and wasteful competition, and by making it possible to find the necessary capital upon reasonable terms in order to provide increased facilities and new developments, the fares will not be put up and the facilities will not be curtailed.
  During the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead certain questions were asked regarding the basis upon which the undertakings were being taken over by the board. So far as I understand the position, they are not being taken over on the basis of a given number of years' purchase, but that a sum has been fixed in regard to which the London General Omnibus Company and the four underground railways are considered as a whole, and this sum is divisible between the five different undertakings, which are so closely associated that it was not considered expedient to separate them at the time when the negotiations were being carried through.
  Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: May I ask the hon. Member two questions? Is he speaking officially on this matter of a lump sum; and what is the lump sum?
  Mr. BOYCE: The hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) always makes a point of interrupting an hon. Member before he has had time to explain. I will give the hon. Member, who appears to derive great pleasure in hearing his own voice when other people are trying to make themselves heard, the answer for which he is asking. The capital amount which is payable in respect of these undertakings has been available to the hon. Member if he had chosen to go to the Vote Office and get it. It is in the White Paper. The amount is £111,370,057, and, as I understand it, it includes the capital amounts payable to those undertakings which have reached a settlement with the Minister and the estimated amount of undertakings like Messrs. Tillings which have not succeeded in reaching a settlement with the Minister. The House listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Fulham, East (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan) who has constituted himself the leader of the opposition to this Measure. As far as I gathered from his speech, his main objection to the Bill is that this sovereign assembly is about to impose an
  904
  element of compulsion upon the different undertakings envisaged in the scheme. The hon. and gallant Member has been in this House for many years and has participated in hundreds of Divisions in support of many Measures which have been passed. Perhaps some of these Measures were purely declaratory and some merely permissive, but I suggest that in a large proportion of them this sovereign assembly imposed some element of compulsion.
  He also contended that this House has no mandate to pass this Bill. If constituents in the London transport area follow the proceedings of this House they will know that one of the last acts of this House before the last election was to pass a Resolution to hold over this Bill to the present Parliament. Why? In order that it may be passed into law—and for no other conceivable reason. He also deplored the haste with which the Minister of Transport is carrying this Measure into law. The hon. and gallant-Member may deplore the haste with which it is being carried through Parliament, but I venture to think that there have been very few Bills, if any, during the last 100 years which have been on the stocks as long as this Bill. It has been in existence for a long time, and many changes have been made in it, and during all the time it has been in existence it has become increasingly manifest that a Measure of this kind is absolutely necessary. The touchstone by which this and all similar Bills must be judged is undoubtedly the public interest, and in this case the public interest is mainly the interest of the travelling public in the London transport area.
  All the principal undertakings engaged in London passenger transport are agreed that a measure of co-operation is required if the transport facilities of the public are to be fully developtd. It has been frequently stated in this House, it has been stated to-day by the hon. Member for West Bermondsey (Dr. Salter) and by the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn), that the Underground group find the provision of new tube railways impracticable so long as competition in street traffic facilities remains unrestricted. The same may be said of the power of the main line companies to improve and extend their facilities to the public so long as the competition for suburban traffic precludes the

  905
  earning of the additional revenue required to give a reasonable return on the capital which would have to be expended. The position is illustrated by the proceedings in the inquiries held in 1925 by the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee. In that year three inquiries regarding traffic facilities were carried out in respect of the North, the North, East and the South East of London.
  At the first of these the two principal directions in which it was alleged the travelling facilities fell short of requirements were, first, the need for an extension of the tube railway northwards of Finsbury Park and, secondly, the need for electrification by the London and North Eastern Company of their railways through Finsbury Park. As to the first of these, Mr. Pick in giving his evidence on behalf of the underground group stated that some means whereby the provision for street traffic facilities were kept within reasonable bounds was a condition precedent to the building of a tube railway at that time. On the second point—the electrification of the London and North Eastern Railway through Finsbury Park—the railway company stated that they could not pledge themselves in the then position of the railway industry to adopt the proposed scheme of electrification, and one of their reasons was that the existing conditions in respect of the competition for suburban traffic did not permit of a reasonable return on the necessary capital which would have to be expended on local railway transport. The Advisory Committee in their report said:
  "Finally, the Committee desire to add that they have been impressed by the contention of the representatives of the railway company and the management of the tramway undertaking that the main difficulty in the way of the provision of additional through facilities is the acute and wasteful competition between various passenger transport agencies operating in the area."
  In their report on the second inquiry regarding traffic facilities to and from the East of London, the Committee said:
  "Finally, the Committee desire to add that the evidence submitted at this inquiry strengthens their view that no lasting solution of the London passenger transport problem can be secured so long as the present competitive methods are pursued. Only by the elimination of the wasteful and uneconomic competition between passenger transport agencies will it be possible for
  906
  any considerable improvements to he effected, particularly in the way of the construction of new underground or surface railways."
  The fact that since these inquiries were held the Underground Company have proceeded with the construction of what is known as the Cockfosters extension does not in any way detract from the force of these arguments, because it is very unlikely that this work could have been undertaken without assistance in the form of a grant from the Treasury under the Development Act of 1929. A certain section of the public may derive a temporary advantage from services which are unnecessary and uneconomic but in the long run such competition can only deprive the travelling public of those transport facilities which are sorely needed. I submit that this Bill provides the correct solution to the problem of London passenger transport. It ensures that the needs of the public in the London passenger transport area will be surveyed by one authority in collaboration with the main line companies. It ensures that the capital for future extensions will be available without risk of loss due to wasteful competition. It also provides for the coordination of services provided by the board and those provided by the four main line railway companies and for the setting up of a joint committee for the initiation of schemes of co-ordination. It further provides for the pooling of the receipts of the board and those of the main line companies and a division of those receipts on a basis which is fair and equitable. As a result of all these proposals I submit that the necessary measure of security and stability will be given to the two groups of undertakers; they will be provided with the necessary facilities for raising new capital, for increased facilities and for new developments; and that the general public will greatly benefit directly, immediately and permanently by the passing of this Measure.
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: The hon. Member has mentioned my name during his speech. Will he permit me to say one or two things in reply?
  HON. MEMBERS: No!
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir Dennis Herbert): The hon. and gallant Member cannot make a reply.
  Mr. BOYCE: I hope that I did not misrepresent the hon. and gallant Member. I certainly had no intention of so doing, and if I did I hope that he will accept my apology.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Member is entitled to correct an inaccurate statement but he must not make another speech.
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: I did not wish to make another speech, and in view of what the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Boyce) has said I will not ask for the further indulgence of the House.
  7.42 p.m.
  Sir H. JACKSON: I have had a rather long and close connection with the problem of London passenger transport. For eight years I have been a member of the London Traffic Advisory Committee and have been associated with all its public inquiries. I am one of the authors of the famous Blue Report. I am sincerely of the opinion that the Bill in its present form represents the principles of the Blue Report and, therefore, I hope the House by an overwhelming majority will reject the proposal of the hon. and gallant Member for Fulham East (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan). The Blue Report was the considered opinion of an impartial body, non-political in character, and representing all the interests in London traffic. That report postulated certain fundamental principles which, I assert, are found in the Bill. Much play has been made on the fact that compulsion has been brought to bear in dealing with this matter. Let me read the following paragraph from the Blue Report:
  "The ownership of existing undertakings would remain with the present proprietors, whether they be municipalities or private companies, but an exception to this principle may be necessary in the case of small omnibus proprietors having regard to their number and the small interests which they severally represent."
  It is a fact that at the present time 93 per cent. of the capital involved in this great merger is coming in perfectly voluntarily. There has been no compulsion of any kind used, and the fact that that large figure has come in quite voluntarily is to my mind entirely in accordance with what we on the advisory committee felt, that there should be no
  908
  compulsion applied in connection with these great concerns. It is true that there are still a few outstanding small concerns. They, too, will have no grievance, because when the Bill becomes law we shall have set up an arbitration tribunal which will see to it that they are not worse treated than those who have already come in. That was our first postulation. The fact that this overwhelming mass have come in perfectly voluntarily and are satisfied with the terms obtained, is entirely in keeping with what we postulated, viz., that there should be no compulsion.
  Then there is No. 2. We said there must be safeguards in the public interest. The public must be safeguarded in the matter of fares, in the adequacy and development of services, and so forth. All these find a place in the Bill. There is a recognised judicial tribunal watching in every one of these instances the interests of the travelling public. You have increased contact between the great municipalities over this Greater London, a much greater contact than you had in the old Bill. Finally, we have that great agreement with the main lines. I would like to quote a rather famous paragraph from the Blue Report regarding what were our hopes in those rather far-off days about the main lines:
  "Negotiations could also be entered into with the main line companies with a view to reaching agreement relative to the provisions to be embodied in any Bill to enable any of the constituent parties to the scheme to enter into agreement with these companies, or any of them, for the routeing, exchange and clearance of traffic, the provision of through services, the pooling of receipts and also for the leasing and /or working of any of the suburban lines."
  That was our dream in 1927. That dream has been more than realised in this Bill, and the great agreement with the main lines is to my mind one of the chief values of this Bill. The Bill for the first time outlines an experiment in the co-ordination of traffic with these great main, line companies. That is a fresh departure, and may very well form a precedent when an attempt is made to deal with the transport problem of the country as a whole. It is urgently necessary that this experiment should be put in hand and tested before the larger problem is dealt with. So I whole-heartedly say to the House that

  909
  all those great principles which this great impartial judicial body, representing every phase of activity from the transport point of view in Greater London, postulated as necessary, now find a place in the Bill.
  There has been, of course, a fundamental change since the Second Reading of the Bill. Some kind of criticism is made against Members who, perhaps, voted against the Second Reading two years ago but are to vote for the Third Reading to-night. But there has been a fundamental change made which fully justifies that action. It is this: The Minister has now for all practical purposes disappeared from the Bill. The Minister now has practically nothing left for him to do by way of interference with the conduct of London Passenger transport. What minor powers are left to him by way of regulations, determining the form of accounts or approving financial measures, are to a large extent qualified, for he must consult the Treasury in all these matters. This great fundamental objection of Conservative Members in 1931 has now gone. The Minister is for all practical purposes washed out of the Bill. I do not think I can do better than read a few most admirable sentences which appeared in the "Times" on the morning after the Second Reading of the Bill two years ago:
  "As Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister pointed out last night in moving the Unionist Amendment for rejection, the Bill gives the Minister powers without responsibility. There is nothing to prevent him appointing a completely Socialist Board. The provisions of the Measure make the Minister the arbiter on the withdrawal or provisions of facilities; and enable him, directly or indirectly, to override every one of its safeguards. A board that is not only appointed by but also controlled by a political Minister may be composed entirely of eminent business men but it may not be in a position to be guided only by business principles."
  And the article stated also:
  "In its present form, with the threat of nationalisation which it contains, Mr. Morrison's Bill is bound to meet with the vigorous opposition of the Conservative Members of the House."
  That objection to the Bill has gone. I would point out that the Bill contains two very important fundamental aspects in reference to the London transport problem. In the first place it has placed the responsibility for London transport in
  910
  the hands of a competent and clearly defined body. This means a small executive body, largely expert in character, but at the same time containing members who will have contact with commerce, banking and local traffic. In the second place, it has exceptional organisation for focusing local opinion, this again under a perfectly definite and distinct body. Under the Bill the new London Traffic Advisory Committee will consist of 39 members, of whom 23 will be appointed by local authorities. Local authorities will, therefore, have a predominant voice, and, as the House has decided, the Chairman is to be elected from one of their members. Provisions are made so that the body may function with the main line railways, with every other form of transport, and with labour. For these reasons those of us who have been studying this problem for years are unanimously of opinion that the Bill as it stands fulfils conditions which an impartial body regarded as fundamental for London traffic.
  Since the Bill has been in Committee we have heard a certain amount of criticism. The suggestion has been made that the risks of difficulties of working will be increased by unification of these great transport undertakings. That criticism cannot be accepted for a moment. With unification of ownership and management, the board will be much better able to experiment so as to ascertain the best means of affording the facilities required, and it will be able to abandon without undue loss methods that have proved to be unsatisfactory and uneconomic. Another suggestion which has been made is that the great merger will find greater difficulties on the labour side. That again, I say, is entirely untrue. If we assume that labour is to have reasonable security of tenure and a reasonable rate of wages, there is far less danger of labour trouble in a great organisation than under separate ownership. We have been told again and again that the elimination of competition will result in decreased facilities. It should not be overlooked that if the Bill passes into law there will be for the first time in the history of London transport an authority with a statutory duty to provide adequate transport needs of the whole area. The provision of adequate facilities postulates that facilities should be afforded not only on lucrative routes but on all routes. We

  911
  see to-day reluctance among the great organisations to tackle the unremunerative routes. They all wish to come into the great central area where there is trade and traffic. Finally, we are told that in some way the terms of acquisition of the transport unlertakings have been substantially altered since the Bill was introduced. As has been shown more than once, that is absolutely untrue.
  Those, then, are some of the objections that have been raised on matters of detail and organisation. We have been met to-night by a suggestion that in some way the financial basis of this great settlement is obscure, that there is something sinister about it. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) was rather heckled on the terms of settlement of one particular organisation with which he is connected. What are the facts of the case in regard to that? As I understand it, Sir William McLintock made a detailed examination of the affairs of all these various companies. He sought to determine and continue the maintainable net revenue. There was no suggestion of so many years purchase. He then came to certain definite conclusions as to the basis upon which a settlement should be made. That basis was then subject to a final negotiation between the Minister and the companies concerned, and the main principle of Sir William McLintock's settlement was maintained. The next stage was that this settlement came before the Joint Select Committee of the two Houses. Upon that Select Committee were not only Members of this House drawn from all parties, but members of the other House, and Sir William McLintock went into the box to be cross-examined, not only by the Committee, but by the representatives of the Parliamentary Bar who were there. He was cross-examined about these financial conclusions. That was the occasion when questions should have been put to him; that was the occasion for him to be heckled. The Joint Select Committee accepted Sir William McLintock's financial proposals and the basis upon which they were submitted. It is a little unfair, at this late stage of the Bill, for an individual Member to be asked to be put into the witness-box as Sir William McLintock was. We have the assurance of the Select Committee,
  912
  as shown by their report, that this great financial settlement had their approval.
  Then we have heard the old, old story that this Bill is a Socialist Measure. It is true that it was introduced by Mr. Herbert Morrison. It is true that Mr. Herbert Morrison nearly succeeded in killing it by claiming that it was a triumph for Socialism. But I seriously ask my Conservative friends how in principle does it differ from the Central Electricity Board and the Imperial Cable Company Bills which were the children of our own party?
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: It was stated in evidence, in the course of the hearing by the Select Committee, that this Measure is without precedent.
  Sir H. JACKSON: Most Members of this House are well acquainted with the story of the two great combinations I have referred to, and I leave the House to form its own judgment. This great transport merger is privately owned. Further, the Minister's reasoned Amendments have, to my mind, entirely withdrawn it from any kind of State control. It is entirely withdrawn from Whitehall, and does not cost the taxpayers of the country one single penny. In view of these facts, I seriously ask how this Bill can be denounced as a Socialist Measure. Finally, we are told it is a monopoly. I grant it is a monopoly, but is there anything new in that? The Metropolitan Water Board is a monopoly, and yet apparently it is working well and to everybody's satisfaction. If there is one public service in which this kind of monopoly is needed it is in a great organisation entering intimately into the lives of nearly 10,000,000 men, women and children living in Greater London. The present internecine competition and war has resulted in useless duplication, congestion and delay. It is precisely because of the failure of internecine competition that we have asked that this Bill should be introduced.
  I will not weary the House regarding the suggestion that fares will be raised. I have tried to deal with that question previously. But if by any misfortune the Bill should be rejected to-night on its Third Reading, I ask you to contemplate what will happen, putting aside all shibboleths and trying to realise the position of the millions of Londoners

  913
  who are asking for better traffic facilities. It will mean that the London County Council trams will go back once again to the rates and continue to be an increasing burden on the ratepayers of London. Instead of that, the County Council is to have 4½ per cent. of the guaranteed interest on £8,500,000 of their tramway stock. Either the trams will become an increased charge on the rates, or alternatively the fares on the trams must be increased. We have heard a doleful picture by some critics of the reduction in receipts in the other great transport undertakings in London in the last two or three years. Unless you have some Bill of this kind increased fares will have to be introduced on all forms of transport if present conditions continue. Many people seem to think it is an idle threat to say that unless we have this Bill we cannot get more tubes and more suburban electrified services. That is no idle threat at all. The Underground group and the railway companies have made that statement definitely. I would ask my hon. Friends who represent constituencies in the East, South-East, North-East and North of London to ponder very seriously before they vote against this Bill, in view of the repeated requests from their constituents for improved travelling.
  This is a. really great London problem. As far as I know, this is the first real attempt at planning in national transport. It puts an end to that competition which has meant cut-throat warfare in which no one is strong enough to feel confident he is the victor, and equally it puts an end to any idea of nationalisation or State control. It is taking the middle course between unrestricted competition on the one hand, and what I think would be the equal error of nationalisation and State control on the other. These great transport undertakings will for the first time receive guaranteed protection on the understanding that they do their job well, and the State will see that they have a fair deal. It will give security and a fair return of interest on capital to the men who put their money into the great public institutions. Finally, it will bring hope at last to that patient travelling public which is growing up in increasing numbers in the new cities arising on the fringe of London. For these reasons, I am sure the House will, by an overwhelm-
  914
  ing majority, reject the Amendment if it is pressed to a Division.
  8.6 p.m.
  Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: I congratulate the last speaker, though I do not agree with what he has said, on the fact that he has supported the Bill as a representative of a London constituency. If there is one thing more remarkable than another it is that this Bill has been supported by speaker after speaker who is not a representative of the area with which it purports to deal. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Boyce) said the touchstone of this Bill was public interest. I would ask the House who is the best judge of the public interest of London—the hon. Member for Gloucester or the local authorities of London? The borough councils, through the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee, have practically unanimously passed a resolution—
  Dr. SALTER: I cannot allow that statement to go by without contradiction. A number of the boroughs, and certainly the Labour boroughs, have been unanimously in favour of the Bill.
  Sir W. DAVISON: The Metropolitan Boroughs Committee, at their meeting a few days ago, practically unanimously, I believe with two dissents—[Interruption.] Is not that practically unanimous? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Certainly it is. That is an idle interruption. By an overwhelming majority if you like, the Metropolitan Boroughs Committee expressed disapproval of this Measure and asked the boroughs to request their representatives to vote against it. The London County Council which, as the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) said, is a body comparable to some of the Great Powers represented at Geneva, surely knows what is in the interests of London. It is opposed to the Bill, and yet we have the hon. Member for Gloucester and the right hon. Member for Hillhead and Members from other parts of the country saying that the Bill is in the interests of London. I suggest to the House that the Metropolitan Boroughs and the London County Council have had before them and are fully alive to all the points which the hon. Member for Wandsworth (Sir H. Jackson) and the Minister of Transport have made.
  Sir H. JACKSON: I put to the hon. Member the same question that I put to the hon. Member for East Lewisham (Sir P. Dawson). Can he tell me the names of any number of the Metropolitan Boroughs, there are 28 of them, which have decided to oppose this Bill on its Third Reading and have instructed its Members to do so to-night.
  Sir W. DAVISON: That is not the point at all. I say that in the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Committee, which represents the Metropolitan Boroughs in the same way as this House represents the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] Of course, it does. It is idle for people to shake their heads. By an overwhelming majority at a meeting a few days ago, when the Third Beading of this Bill was definitely under consideration, they passed a resolution that the Bill should be opposed and that it was not in the interests of London. I challenge anyone to deny that statement. I further add that the London County Council, the great municipal authority representing this area, is also opposed to the Third Reading of this Bill. The hon. Member for Richmond (Sir W. Ray), the leader of that body, has made a statement to that effect I understand, earlier this afternoon. I say, therefore, that the local authorities of London have passed this Resolution and are opposed to this Bill, and I object to Members from Gloucester and Glasgow saying it is in the national interest that the Bill should be passed.
  I think we Londoners who live and move about in London are a great deal better able to judge what is in the transport interests of London. We consider it most undesirable that there should be no competition among the undertakers of traffic in this vast area. It is like putting the whole of the traffic of Denmark or Belgium under one authority. We say it is a tremendous undertaking, and it is not desirable that all competition should be done away with. Secondly, we would point out the great danger in the event of any industrial dispute in London if the whole transport of London is under one authority. What would have happened in the North of Ireland if all the omnibuses and trains and other services had been under one authority? It would have meant that the Government would have had to provide for the necessities of the people. I say it is very
  916
  undesirable that the whole transport undertakings of a vast and important area like London should be non-competitive and should be in the hands of one authority.
  8.12 p.m.
  Mr. DENVILLE: I would like to apologise for not being in attendance yesterday when an Amendment in my name was brought forward, and I would like also to thank the hon. Member on the Opposition side for having raised the matter. My objection is that there is no proper provision in this Bill for the hundreds of workers who will be thrown out of employment. It says in the Bill that the staff will be compensated, but what is meant by the word "staff." Those who have been in the army know that there it does not mean the rank and file. Does it mean in this case that the black-coated officials and the executive will be compensated, but that the lower grades will receive no compensation whatever? If it means that they will all be compensated, surely there is a great danger of the employers saying they cannot afford to compensate all these men thrown out of work, and therefore they will transfer them to various parts of the country. If that were so, there would be a danger of railwaymen being sent up to Newcastle for example. I consider it is a great danger, and, in putting this point to the Attorney-General and the Minister, I hope they will give it their serious consideration. If there is any danger of compensation not being paid to all grades, or of men being transferred from London to Newcastle or other parts of the country, I must vote against the Bill.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. C. WILLIAMS: The hon. Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) has performed a very real service to the House to-night. Not only has he taken the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor) under his wing for a short time—that is always a valuable thing to do, from every point of view, in this House—but he has provoked an interruption from the hon. Member who supported the Bill so violently from the Socialist benches earlier this evening in which he said that it was the Socialist boroughs in the London area which were supporting the Bill. It has been our contention all along

  917
  that this is only a slightly disguised variation of the Bill introduced in the last Parliament by Mr. Morrison, and if this Bill had been given its real title I should call it the "Morrison (Increase of Fares) No. 2 Bill, slightly amended from No. 1."
  Mr. LOGAN: Slightly amended, when all those Amendments were introduced yesterday!
  Mr. WILLIAMS: "Slightly" has different meanings. We may make a good many Amendments without vitally affecting the basis of a Bill, and, on the other hand, two or three Amendments may entirely alter its whole character. I listened with interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Central Wandsworth (Sir H. Jackson), who, I think, is the only Conservative Member for London who has spoken in favour of the Bill. There is hardly anyone in the House for whose opinions I have more respect, or in whose honesty I have greater trust, and I believe he will go into the Division Lobby in the sincere belief that this is a good Bill; but when we see hon. Members like him and the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) being completely hoodwinked by the extraordinary capacity of the Minister of Transport for persuading the House that black is white, it is essential that some of us should lay down very clearly why this Bill should be opposed on Third Reading.
  I am satisfied in my own mind that it is now a very much better Bill than when it went into Committee. Three Amendments were inserted yesterday all of which I seconded, and obviously they would improve the Bill. One of those Amendments introduced a new Clause which lays down a most important principle in connection with steamboats. That Clause allows the board to contract out in the case of steamboat services, and I think that, sooner or later, the board should be able to contract out in the case of other forms of transport, allowing them to go back to private enterprise. I believe that sooner or later this experiment of setting up a great trust for the whole of London will break down; like other great trusts, it will become far too heavy in itself and innumerable things will have to be contracted out. That new Clause sets up a precedent which will very likely be useful
  918
  when it becomes a question of introducing a small amending Bill to permit other forms of transport to be contracted out. An hon. Member who spoke a few minutes ago asked whether members of the Conservative party and representatives of London would like to see the London tramways on the rates again instead of getting 4½ per cent. on something like £8,000,000, as will be the case under this Bill. That 4½ per cent. will have to come from somewhere, and if it is not to come from the people in that area of London which was foolish enough to allow the County Council to have anything to do with tramways it can only come from a general increase in fares to the public, including people in places as far outside London as Windsor and Reading.
  I do not see why we should be asked to pass such a Bill as this at the present time. There are several principles in the Bill which are clearly against any pledges we may have given to our constituents at the last election. I do not dispute that there must be some form of unification of transport in London, and I do not say that the Bill has not been vastly improved by the exclusion of the Minister. No more true statement has been made—and this is an answer to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps)—than that made by Mr. Morrison in this House on 23rd March, 1931:
  "When we know how Members of this House are squeezed upon this or that subject at elections—I say quite frankly I have come to the conclusion that, on the whole, a politician as such is better outside the function of management."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd March, 1931; col. 55, Vol. 250.]
  We have an improved Bill in the sense that we have taken things almost entirely out of the hands of the Minister of Transport; even if the Bill did nothing else that would be a good thing, because it may give us a chance of eliminating this entirely unnecessary Ministry in the immediate future. That is no reason for opposing the Bill, however, and the first point on which I would oppose it is its deliberate attempt to get outside the London area. I do not see the hon. Members for Windsor and other places in that neighbourhood in the House at the moment, but they put up a prolonged fight to try to exclude areas such as Windsor and Reading, though, unfortunately, the Government did not see

  919
  their way to meet them. The second point on which I think it is essential to oppose the Bill—and I am obliged, very reluctantly, to do so very bitterly—is that the finance of the Measure has been, if I may put it in that way, shrouded in a certain mystery. This afternoon I asked a question of the right hon. Member for Hillhead. No one is clearer on finance than he is, but he was unable to give me an answer. Over and over again we have asked, first from one Member of the Government and then from another, what is the precise position under the Bill.
  Then we had that great financial expert, the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Boyce), who said he did not know the position and who seemed to be a little involved. I asked him a question, and he referred me to a paper, and the bit of it to which he referred me had absolutely nothing to do with the sum which was to be paid in compensation, but was merely a quotation of one of the stocks. After the pleasant things that he said about me, I conclude that he will be able to read his own notes, with difficulty, but that he does not understand the White Paper, because it is clear that he was not answering my question in any way whatever. He is not here now, which is very often the case with those who interrupt other hon. Members. [Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh at me, but I think they will find that I very seldom interrupt anyone while he is on his feet in this House. I have made a good many speeches, but I very seldom interrupt other speakers, and any Minister in the late Government will know that. I am sure the Leader of the Opposition has never been interrupted by me when he was making a speech, although he might like to have suppressed me once or twice.
  Mr. LANSBURY: You are a very nice fellow.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: I congratulate the Leader of the Opposition on being right for once in his life. The exception proves the rule. I think the House is entitled to know quite clearly what is the compensation which is going to be obtained or what is the amount for which the four great railway companies are liable to the Metropolitan Railway and on what basis of years the compensation is to be made. I believe my right hon. and
  920
  learned Friend the Attorney-General is going to reply. If I may say so with very great respect, there is no one whose honesty and character are more Valued in the House as a whole. Everyone knows that if he says a thing, he means it absolutely, but some of us who have been watching him during these debates must be aware that he has had some very difficult times when he has had to get up and support the Bill. I think he would much rather have been in the position of those Cabinet Ministers, such an the Postmaster-General and others, who bitterly opposed this Bill formerly and who have been absent so continuously during these debates. I think the Attorney-General would rather be making opposition speeches than some of the speeches that he has had to make in support of the Bill.
  The Bill will undoubtedly have very strong financial provisions of some kind, which will make great differences to many of the great companies, and I think the House is entitled, before passing it, to have a clear explanation of its provisions. We must remember that sooner or later, if it passes in another place, the whole of the means of transport of some seven or eight million Londoners will be dependent on the finance of this Bill, and if that finance is unsound, if it is not on a right basis, if certain companies are getting more than they should do, it means inevitably that there must be a great rise in the fares in a part of this area.
  I do not know whether I should apologise as representing a constituency outside London for taking part in the Debate on this Bill, but I would like to say to the Government that I can remember the 1918 Parliament, that I can remember things that happened then, and that this Bill and some other Bills are very like some of the things which caused that Parliament to break up. It is the deliberate driving into the Lobbies of vast blocks of Conservative Members to vote against what they know in their heart of hearts is wrong which will smash this Nationalist Government. I may not be one of those who always do exactly as they are told, but I have been a whole-hearted supporter of the Government and of my own party, and I say quite frankly that if there are many more Bills of this kind, whatever may be the guiding or ruling force behind them, whether

  921
  it be the Prime Minister or whoever else it may he, some of us are not going to be driven into the Lobby to vote for such Measures, which are wholly against the principles in which we believe and which cannot in any way be justified by any of our pledges at the last election.
  If this kind of thing is going on, much as I regret it, I say that it will endanger the really very fine work which the Government are intending to do. I regret that the Government should waste the time of this House with Measures like this, which is merely a legacy from the previous Government, and I hope this is one of the last things of this kind that we shall see produced by the present Government. I am in no sense blaming the present Minister of Transport. I believe he has done his best, and he has been extraordinarily patient during the whole of these Debates, but I very sincerely hope that he will never have the unpleasant duty of trying to force through the House of Commons any other Bill of this kind.
  8.34 p.m.
  Mr. HOWARD: The borough council of Islington, which is the second largest borough in London, representing some 300,000 people, has sent a circular letter to each of its four Members of Parliament asking us to vote against the Third Reading of this Bill to-night. Their reasons are, in the first place, that they consider it is an attack upon private enterprise; secondly, that they fear that this monopoly can only result in increasing the fares to Londoners; and thirdly, that it will take away facilities. These are the three chief reasons for which we are asked by this large borough council to vote against this Measure. We have heard already to-night in this House from the hon. Member for Finsbury (Sir G. Gillett) that it will mean that the monopoly will dictate to the people as to whether they shall travel by tram or omnibus and that it is illogical that there should be two kinds of services operating on the same route. That is one of the things we have feared all along. We think that the people of London, who have been accustomed to choosing whether they should go by tube, tram or omnibus, should not be dictated to and given only one facility of travelling. They will feel this interference with their individual
  922
  liberty to a very great extent. Omnibuses will be taken from the streets, a number of London County Council trams will be withdrawn, 1,500 drivers and conductors will lose their means of employment, large losses will be made unless fares are increased, and I venture to predict that this Measure will go down to history as "Morrison's monster."
  8.36 p.m.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip): My hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan) complained that the Government in this matter had proceeded with undue haste. That was a curious observation to make when one remembers that the question of London traffic and the creation of an authority to take control of it has been discussed by this House, by Royal Commissions, by Select Committees, and by Ministers for something like 25 years. During the whole of that time the problem has become steadily more intractable and difficult. As long ago as 1919 a Select Committee of this House reported in no unmistakable terms as to its opinion about the steps that ought to be taken. The Committee said that it was the absence of a supreme traffic authority for greater London possessing executive powers of control and able to safeguard and further public interests that was responsible for the demoralisation of traffic in Greater London. They went on to say:
  "The immediate creation by Parliament of a London traffic authority can alone remedy the present intolerable conditions."
  I am well aware, of course, that the authority which is now proposed to be set up is possibly a very different authority from that which was contemplated by the Committee to which I have referred, but when we reflect that in 1919 the conditions of London traffic were described as intolerable by a Committee of this House, it surprises me that my hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham should rebuke the Government for having proceeded to deal with this question with undue haste. My hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) seemed to think that the Government were inducing a large number of people to vote for this Bill who would thus vote against their consciences. I have noticed before in the House that if anybody desires to vote against the majority of his party, he generally announces his intention of

  923
  so doing by supposing that everybody else is dishonest, and that he alone is reputable. My hon. Friend has no right and no authority to make the suggestion that those who vote for this Bill, or the majority of them, will not, broadly speaking, believe in the Bill which they are asked to support.
  Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend, when he considers the matter, will never for a moment imagine that I would accuse any Member of my party of giving a dishonest vote. Nothing would be further from my intentions. I do say, however, that the power of the Whips can drive people into the Lobbies against their wishes, and that I do not think the Government would have got this Bill if they had throughout taken the Whips off.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: My hon. Friend took down the hon. Gentleman's statement. He said, "The majority were being driven into the Lobby to vote for what they know to be wrong." That is a fairly emphatic and expressive charge of what I may call intellectual dishonesty, if not moral dishonesty. So far as I am concerned, my hon. Friend was good enough to suppose that I disbelieved in the Bill, and that I was preparing a number of arguments from time to time which carried no conviction to my own mind. My hon. Friend is entitled to his own opinion, but I should like to say that the more I have become acquainted with this Bill, and the longer the process of my initiation into the questions connected with London traffic, the more I am persuaded that some such system as this is the only possible solution for the problem.
  Mr. C. WILLIAMS: Hear, hear!
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I may assume that my hon. Friend will no longer believe me to be opposed to what I am commending to the House. The longer the settlement of this question is postponed, the more difficult is it certain to become. I may remind the House that in 1924 the London Traffic Act was passed, conferring considerable powers upon the Minister and creating the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee. In 1930, the House passed another Measure, the Road Traffic Act, con-
  924
  ferring much more drastic powers upon the Minister, and upon certain officials who were appointed under the Act, than was contemplated or could have been contemplated in 1924. I am persuaded from my experience of these matters that the longer we postpone some such treatment as this, the more we will be driven to try and create some sort of super-Ministry composed of officials who will attempt to do that which this new authority will, I hope, do with success after the Bill is passed.
  The fact is that the choice at present before the House is not between doing nothing and passing this Bill; it is a choice between conferring much more extensive powers on what is sometimes called the bureaucracy and setting up the authority or something like the authority that is proposed in the Bill. The Bill is, in fact, the first attempt to take a really long view of this question. There have been many half-hearted, timid proposals made from time to time. This Bill takes a comprehensive grasp of the whole of the problems. I am not going to suggest for a moment that the Bill is infallibly designed and that everything in it must be regarded as if it were inspired We are human and the House must do the best with the materials that are at its command, but the Bill does make a genuine attempt to envisage the whole of the problems and difficulties connected with London traffic, and to make some comprehensive settlement of this question, not for a year, not to stave off some other measure, but for the purpose of putting it on a firm, permanent and satisfactory basis.
  The Bill has evoked criticism from two different points of view. The hon. Member for Bermondsey (Dr. Salter) described it as a mangled edition of the Bill of the Labour party, and said that it fell short of what it ought to do. On the other hand, my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan) described the Bill as a much-improved Bill. Those are two opposite points of view and the Government may take courage from the customary reflection on such occasions that the middle course is possibly the safest course. We are neither being driven into the ranks of the Socialist party nor are we resting in the tents of the reactionary forces. The hon. Gentleman opposite said that

  925
  nothing but public ownership and complete control would ever satisfy the Socialist party. I am not surprised then that this Bill does not satisfy him because it is certainly a long way from providing for public ownership and complete control. [HON. MEMBEBS: "Hear, hear!"] I hope that those cheers will encourage some of my faint hearted friends who sit behind me.
  I have said that there have been tentative proposals for dealing with this question. My hon. Friend the Member for Fulham was much intrigued by what he called co-ordination and I gather that "co-ordination" to him is like the blessed word "Mesopotamia" and holds a warm place in his affections. He suggested that there should be a Bill for common management, for co-operation based on voluntary arrangement. My hon. Friend with all his powers of sweet reasonableness would probably find it difficult to devise a supreme authority for London traffic if sweet reasonableness were the only weapon at his command. He based himself upon the Blue Report. I have obtained that interesting document to which he has paid so much attention, and I may remind the House of some of the things in it. It first describes the powers conferred upon the Minister by the London Traffic Act of 1924 as being quite inadequate as a means of eliminating the existing
  "wasteful uneconomic and unnecessary competition between the several transport agencies."
  My hon. Friend attaches great value to the Blue Report. What about the freedom of private enterprise if you are going to limit free competition? I thought that the essence of the freedom of private enterprise from my hon. Friend's point of view was that there should be no interference with it; in other words, that there should be unrestricted competition. The Blue Report describes the competition that exists as "wasteful, uneconomic and unnecessary." Then my hon. Friend went on to represent to the House—I am sure with perfect honesty and believing it to be right—that there was no element of compulsion in the Blue Report. But I find that the common fund—which is described as the foundation of any successful treatment of this question—is mentioned in that report in connection with compulsory powers:
  926
  "Whilst it is hoped that this will be effected by agreement such powers must be conferred on the appropriate authority by Parliament as would ensure that all the undertakings concerned become parties to the common fund."
  What then is the position of my hon. Friend with his hatred of compulsion and his reliance upon the Blue Report?
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: I think in regard to that matter I am in the same position as the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I do not understand that statement.
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: He has defended compulsion.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: My hon. Friend cannot get away with it like that. He objects to compulsion. He and I are in different positions. I am defending a moderate measure of compulsion as necessary to ensure a great object. My hon. Friend protests against compulsion and yet in the same breadth recommends to the House the alternative remedy of a Bill based on the Blue Report. References to the Blue Report ran like a sort of refrain through his speech. But, according to the Blue Report, compulsion is fundamental to the adoption of its proposals. I am sure that my hon. Friend will not quarrel with that statement.
  Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGAN: I proposed to take the Blue Report as the basis or the foundation on which to build. I also mentioned that a Conservative Government had introduced two Bills based on the Blue Report, and I desired to proceed on those lines rather than on the lines adopted in the present Bill.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: My hon. Friend now says—indeed, I gather he tells us that he had said so in his speech—that the solution of the problem is the solution contained in the two Bills which are called the Co-ordination Bills. The Co-ordination Bills entirely failed. They failed to satisfy anybody in the House for the very good reason that they left out that element of compulsion which the Blue Report described as essential to the creation of any proper authority. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] The Coordination Bills had their opportunity,, and they failed for the reason I have

  927
  mentioned. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I am entitled to express my opinion. I believe I am absolutely justified in saying that they failed to satisfy the House and public opinion merely because they were so many vague aspirations towards so-called co-ordination and contained little or nothing to ensure that any proper measure of co-ordination would be effected.
  I am opposed to the political opinions of Mr. Herbert Morrison who took such a great part in connection with this Measure, but I am ready to pay a tribute to any quarter where I think a tribute is due. Nor am I going to be deterred by any fanciful suggestion from any hon. Member that I am half a Socialist or anything of that kind. Mr. Morrison was, I believe, on the right path so far as the measure of compulsion introduced into this Bill is concerned. He and those who agree with him in this respect are what are fashionably called realists in that they recognise that you cannot deal with this problem without having some weapon in order to bring everybody into your scheme. It is no good bringing in half or three-quarters of the people concerned, and I venture to think that the element of compulsion in the Bill can be justified by the success which has attended the efforts of the present Minister so far. It can be justified by the example of those who have realised that it is in the public interest that they should be compelled if necessary to come into a common organisation; who have shown themselves to be reasonable and public-spirited people by agreeing to make voluntary arrangements for settling the claims of various interests concerned in London traffic. I do not regret at all that there has been such a large measure of voluntary settlement on questions arising as to the compensation payable for the investments taken over.
  Sir BASIL PETO: Is it not a fact that the one party standing out when this Bill was before the Committee was the Metropolitan Railway and that they came in by agreement and not by compulsion.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. That is the point which I am endeavouring to make. Whether it was the measure of compulsion that lay behind the Bill or not, a
  928
  great authority like that which he has mentioned came in and made an arrangement as satisfactory to themselves as to the Minister negotiating the Bill on behalf of the travelling public. I suggest to any hon. Members who may have been a little frightened by the frequent repetition of the words "monopoly" and "compulsion" and words of that sort that they may take a little courage when they reflect upon the way in which the Conservative party has many times in the past found it necessary in the public interest to require certain owners of property or interests to place that property or those interests at the disposal of the public in return for fair compensation. This Bill, I unhesitatingly say, provides for fair competition between the board and the persons whose property is concerned.
  That brings me to the question of finance. The hon. Member for West Lewisham (Sir P. Dawson) put forward some criticisms of the finance of this Bill in Committee. He was not here yesterday, though we had seen his shadow in the form of a printed statement which was circulated with his name. He will, I hope, forgive me if I say that that statement was thoroughly misleading. I am not suggesting for a moment that he intended to mislead hon. Members, and I am quite sure that he believes what he said, whatever the rest of us may think. He prophesied that the scheme would result in a deficit of at least £l,000,000. Let us see how he arrived at that figure. He ignores, first of all, the elasticity in the financial structure of the Bill by reason of the existence of the "C" stock. He does not make any reference to the fact that the interest which is to be earned by the "C" stock is in the same position as the return to be paid upon the ordinary stock in any undertaking. He uses the word "deficit" in a thoroughly misleading sense. It cannot be said that an undertaking is making a deficit, even if it does fail to pay the highest rate of interest which is capable of being earned on its ordinary stock, or upon its "C" stock as in this case. The "C" stock depends upon the earnings of this undertaking, and the interest is not cumulative. I am sorry that the use of the word "deficit" has the high authority of the hon. Member for West Lewisham.

  929
  Let us see how this £ 1,000,000 is arrived at. My hon. Friend takes as the basis of his comparison the two years 1932 and 1930. He finds a reduction in the gross receipts as between those two years of £ 1,200,000. He adds to that, for the increase in the price of petrol, £500,000, which makes £ 1,700,000. He then takes, as if he were dealing with the same subject matter, Sir William McLintock's estimated surplus of £ 400,000, and he adds to that the sum of £ 300,000, which he suggests may be realised by means of economies. He makes £ 700,000 out of those two sums, deducts it from his £ 1,700,000 deficit and says: "I have arrived at a deficit of £1,000,000."
  Let us see the mistake that he has made. He has taken, for the purpose of getting to his riginal sum of £ 1,700,000, the comparisons between 1932 and 1930. Sir William McLintock was not dealing with 1930; he has taken the three years 1928, 1929 and 1930, and, in as much as the 1930 receipts exceeded the average receipts for those three years by £ 600,000, the hon. Member for West Lewis ham, by taking the year 1930 as if it were Sir William McLintock's, has falsified the whole of his calculation by no less a sum than £ 600,000. His so-called deficit is thereby divided in half. Then what does he do? He adds on, in a light and airy fashion, £500,000, as being the increased expenditure by reason of the added price of petrol. My hon. Friend is, I know, a great authority on finance. If he had studied the figures which have been provided only to-day in the accounts of the five companies, he would have found that the reduction—
  Sir P. DAWSON: I have not seen them. I have been too busy.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I wish he had had an opportunity of studying them as I have today, and he cannot complain about my giving the true facts because he has been too busy to study them. The accounts that have been published today show a reduction in 1932 as compared with 1930 of a very much smaller figure than the hon. Member has assumed in his calculations, and any increase in the cost of petrol to the companies is offset by economies that have been achieved by so much more than he anticipates, that actually the expenditure in 1932 is some —500,000 less than the expenditure in 1930; that is after the
  930
  original cost of petrol has been charged against the expenses. There goes another £ 500,000 of my hon. Friend's facile calculation.
  When a document was produced so late as the last two or three days, and is only brought before the House this evening when there are no other facilities for examining it than those afforded to a Poor Law officer who knows nothing about finance, one can understand how unreliable my hon. Friend's calculations are. If there had been anything in them, I cannot help thinking that it would have been discovered several weeks ago during the Recess, and since we discussed this Bill in Committee. I do not place much confidence in calculations by round figures of half-millions that are brought forward at the eleventh hour, instead of being brought forward at the earliest possible moment.
  I may still be asked how I justify the finance of this Bill. I do not attempt to justify it on my own authority; the House is in a position to judge about the value of the estimates that have been placed before it by Sir William McLintock's examination of the figures, and I venture to suggest that it is a counsel of despair to take those estimates and to say that they are unjustified by the experience that we are likely to meet in the next few years. Sir William McLintock has not made any prophecy about what is going to happen. He has taken the three years as a fair basis of the financial statement which was produced and offered to the House as long ago as last November. If it is suggested that the margin of about £ 150,000, after paying the interest on the "C" stock, is a very small one, let me remind the House that the "C" stock is intended to provide for that elasticity which you are bound to have in any well-managed undertaking. You cannot guarantee that the profits shall always remain at a precise level.
  The earnings of the "C" stock may go up to 6 per cent. One of my hon. Friends said that it may go up as high as 6½ per cent. That was a mistake. They may go up to 6 per cent. If in any particular year the earnings of this concern are not enough to pay 6 per cent., the holders of the "C" or of the ordinary stock as I call it, will have the same experience as other investors in

  931
  trading companies. It is quite wrong to say that this Bill is a mistake and ought not to be accepted by the House because the Government cannot guarantee a rate of interest of 6 per cent. upon the ordinary stock of the undertaking for ever. We offer to the House, and I offer to the House, which is so much better able to judge of its value than I am, the estimate that has been prepared and laid before it as to the probable course of events. When one reflects that the estimate has not taken into account any economies that may be effected and, as I have shown, have already been effected, in these great undertakings, I think the House may have a good hope that, with proper management and control and by the elimination of that wasteful competition which everybody has recognised, prosperity awaits this undertaking.
  I was asked a question about the amount of the "C" stock. The calculation of the amount of the "C" stock has not been based upon any rule-of-thumb calculation of past profits. The Minister has had to take into consideration the factor of security and maintainability of the profits. There has been an estimate of capital which has not yet come into full value, but there has been no attempt to capitalize past profits or the share of any particular operator in the common receipts, and it is quite impossible to answer the question, which has been asked this evening, as to what is the number of years' purchase given to a particular undertaker. I made the point in Committee, and I was very sorry to hear the hon. Member for North Hammersmith (Miss Pickford) say that we have kept back from the House details about finance. I hope the hon. Lady will allow me to say that I do not think that that charge is quite justified. We may not have been able to give an answer to the question, which was put in Committee and has been repeated today, as to how many years' purchase have been given to a particular operator, but that is not because we have kept back the information, but because it is impossible to give an answer to the question, since the calculations have not proceeded on that basis.
  Miss PICKFORD: What I wanted to convey was that it has never been made plain to the House, and particularly to
  932
  those new Members who did not hear the Second Reading Debate or the proceedings before the Joint Select Committee.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I am not sure what the hon. Lady refers to when she says that it has never been made clear to the House. I am not sure what it is that has never been made clear to the House. As long ago as November, the broad outline of the financial structure of the Bill was made plain to the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Oh, yes, it was. It is no use the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) protesting, unless he has not read it.
  Mr. REMER: What is called making it clear is done in a White Paper which not even the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself can understand.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It is quite possible that I do not understand it, but I think that a great many other people understood it, and that even I understood the broad outline set out in the White Paper. When it is suggested, further, that the details of the finance have not been explained to the House, I must join issue with the hon. Member for North Hammersmith, because there was a great deal of discussion in Committee about the financial details of this scheme, and, so far as I know, except for the question about the number of years' purchase, any question that was asked was answered. I should like any Member here present who may care to interrupt me to tell me of a single question that was not fairly answered except this question which I have mentioned, and to which I say there was not an answer, because there was no attempt to take profits and multiply by the number of years to give so many years' purchase. All sorts of other considerations were taken into account besides the mere amount of profits in a particular year or on an average of years.
  Mr. CAPORN: Did not the right non. and learned Gentleman tell us in Committee that it was impossible to give the details of the finance because there were other persons concerned, and the matter would have to go to arbitration?
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I certainly told the Committee that I was not prepared to give a calculation of the compensation paid to a particular

  933
  operator, because of the settlements that had still to be arrived at; but that refusal is not a refusal to explain the financial structure of the Bill. I am sure that anyone who is acquainted, as my hon. Friend is, with arbitration about compensation, knows perfectly well the difference between the two statements.
  Captain STRICKLAND: Was it not made clear this afternoon that the Minister himself could not tell us the total sum involved?
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I was not present during the whole of my hon. Friend's speech, and I did not hear anything to that effect, but I cannot imagine that my hon. Friend would have found himself in a difficulty of that sort, because all that it was necessary for him to do was to refer any hon. Member to Command Paper No. 4204, which gives the answer to that question. I suggest once more to the House that there has been a disclosure of the financial structure upon which the Bill is reared. It may be that some hon. Members think that the structure is unsound; it may be that they think that too optimistic an opinion has been formed of the chances of success of this undertaking; but that is very different from saying that the financial features of the Bill have not been fairly explained to the House. I hope I am right in saying that there has been no refusal of information.
  I will now deal with another point remotely connected with finance. I was asked by the hon. Member for North Southward (Mr. Strauss) what guarantee there was against the raising of fares. That question has been put from more than one quarter, and it rather surprises me that it should be asked by some of my hon. Friends behind me. Is it really the suggestion that, indefinitely, the taxpayers of the United Kingdom are to subsidies the traveling public of London? That is what the request for a guarantee by the Government that fares shall not be raised means. I am not suggesting that fares will be raised; I am not attempting to prophesy. I have given reasons for thinking that, when proper economies have been effected, the management of London traffic will be more efficient than and just as cheap as it has been in the past. But let us suppose that the necessities of the situation do result in fares being raised. Is it sug-
  934
  gested that that is wrong, and that the London population of 10,000,000 or 12,000,000, or whatever is the number affected by this Bill, are indefinitely to have cheap transport at the expense of the taxpayers of the whole of the United Kingdom? Some of my hon. Friends behind me seem inclined to ask for a measure of Home Rule for London, and to wish to prevent anyone from speaking about London except the representatives of South Kensington and Fulham—
  Sir W. DAVISON: At any rate not Bristol.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Those who seem to take that rather parochial view of this problem cannot expect the London traveling public to be subsidised for ever by the taxpayers, any more than the citizens of Bristol. My hon. Friend refers to Bristol. Why should Bristol be deprived of cheap traveling facilities if London gets them at the expense of the taxpayers?
  Sir W. DAVISON: We suggest that, owing to the proceedings of this combine, it is very likely that the transport will cost more than if it were in the hands of individuals who would look after the matter, while in that case, if any loss were incurred, it would be borne by the shareholders and not by the taxpayers.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: If all that my hon. Friend is doing is to prophesy as to what is very likely to happen, I am not going to compete with him. I am not aware, if my hon. Friend will allow me to say so without any offence, that he has qualified as a financial expert on the very complicated details of transport finance in London. He may be right or he may be wrong. I say deliberately, however, that at the present time the London traveling public is being subsidised by the taxpayer. Let me give one illustration. In the case of the tubes that have been recently constructed or are now being constructed, the Government have given a subsidy to the extent of 3 per cent. upon the capital for 15 years. Why has that been done? Because the traffic in London at the present time is not being carried on on a self-supporting basis. Who can defend that? It is tolerable in order to carry us over a period of difficulty, to tide us over a

  935
  few years; but it would be an intolerable burden on the taxpayers of this country if it were to go on for ever. Are we to be deterred from setting up a state of things by which economies can be effected, by the somewhat vague and gloomy anticipations of my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington? If we were to approach this problem in that spirit, we might just as well throw up our task at once, and say that London traffic in the future must be left to look after itself, because the House of Commons is helpless since it cannot guarantee the future. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir W. Ray) said that he was in favor of a smaller experiment first. He did not tell us what was the smaller experiment.
  Sir W. RAY: Pardon me, I did. I do not think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was in the Chamber.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I apologies to the hon. Gentleman. I think I heard the whole of his speech, but I am sure that it is my fault if I did not understand the smaller experiment. That was the topic upon which I began my few observations. This House has been engaged in making smaller experiments for the last 25 years, and it is time that we undertook something a little more courageous and comprehensive than what my hon. Friend calls the smaller experiments. I do not regard this Measure—even if I did I should not be frightened by it—in the least as a Socialistic Measure, or, as a step towards the time when what the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) described as "the far off approach of Socialism" would be realized. We are
  all accustomed to read prophecies of astronomers who look forward to the time when the exhaustion of the Sun will reduce us all to icicles. The prospect of this country. turning to Socialism is about as remote as that. I certainly shall not be deterred by prophecies of that sort.
  The progress of this Debate seems to have lasted only seven or eight days. Perhaps some hon. Members who have had to listen to me think that it must have lasted a great deal longer. The fact is that it has lasted 25 years, and certain broad conclusions have been hammered out in the course of that generation—the conclusion that the condition of London traffic is intolerable, the conclusion that there must be some co-ordination, if I may borrow my hon. Friend's expression, the conclusion that there must be some measure of compulsion, and the impossibility of dealing with this question unless every phase of traffic is brought under the same central control. I do not think that there is a single Member in the House who has studied this question who would deny those broad propositions. I have head it said that the Bill has much more in it of agreement than compulsion, though I recognise that compulsion lies at the back of this long-needed Measure, which has been produced by many different authorities, and I ask the House now to send it forward in the hope that it will prove to be a permanent contribution to the well-being and efficiency of this great City.
  Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 46.

  Division No. 44.]

  AYES.

  [9.18 p.m.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

  Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

  Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton)

  Gazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

  Boothby, Robert John Graham

  Clayton, Dr. George C.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Borodale, Viscount

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Aske, Sir Robert William

  Boulton, W. W.

  Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Conant, R. J. E.

  Atkinson, Cyril

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Cook, Thomas A.

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Cooke, Douglas

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Brass, Captain Sir William

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Balniel, Lord

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

  Banfield, John William

  Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

  Cripps, Sir Stafford

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Burnett. John George

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

  Cadogan, Hon. Edward

  Crossley, A. C.

  Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

  Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

  Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

  Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

  Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

  Daggar, George

  Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th.C.)

  Cape, Thomas

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

  Belt, Sir Alfred L.

  Caporn, Arthur Cecil

  Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)

  Bernays, Robert

  Carver, Major William H.

  Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

  Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

  Cassels, James Dale

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

  Dickie, John P.

  Law, Sir Alfred

  Reid, William Allan (Derby)

  Dixon, Rt. Hon. Herbert

  Lawson, John James

  Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

  Drewe, Cedric

  Leckie, J. A.

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

  Edwards, Charles

  Levy, Thomas

  Ropnar, Colonel L.

  Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Lewis, Oswald

  Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

  Elmley, Viscount

  Liddall, Walter S.

  Ross, Ronald D.

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

  Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Loder, Captain J. de Vere

  Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tslde)

  Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

  Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

  Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

  Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  MacAndrew, Lt.-Col C. G. (Partick)

  Salmon, Sir Isidore

  Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

  McConnell, Sir Joseph

  Salt, Edward W.

  Ford, Sir Patrick J.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Forestier-Walker, Sir Leolin

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Seaham)

  Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

  Gillett, Sir George Masterman

  McEntee, Valentine L.

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark. Bothwell)

  Glossop, C. W. H.

  McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

  Shaw. Captain William T. (Forfar)

  Gluckstein, Louis Halle

  McKie, John Hamilton

  Shepperson. Sir Ernest W.

  Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Shute, Colonel J, J.

  Goff, Sir Park

  McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

  Slater, John

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Macmillan, Maurice Harold

  Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

  Magnay, Thomas

  Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.)

  Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

  Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

  Somervell, Donald Bradley

  Grimston, R. V.

  Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

  Soper, Richard

  Groves, Thomas E.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

  Guy, J. C. Morrison

  Martin, Thomas B.

  Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Spencer, Captain Richard A.

  Hales, Harold K.

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Mitchell, Harold P.(Sr'tf'd & Chisw'k)

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

  Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Moore. Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

  Stones, James

  Hanbury, Cecil

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Storey, Samuel

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

  Strauss, Edward A.

  Harbord, Arthur

  Morrison, William Shepherd

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

  Muirhead, Major A. J.

  Sutcliffe, Harold

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Munro, Patrick

  Templeton, William P.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Nathan, Major H. L.

  Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

  Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Hornby, Frank

  Normand, Wilfrid Guild

  Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

  Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Nunn, William

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Horobin, Ian M.

  O'Donovan, Dr. William James

  Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

  Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

  Owen, Major Goronwy

  Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

  Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)

  Parkinson, John Allen

  Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

  Pearson, William G.

  Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

  Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C)

  Peat, Charles U.

  Watt, Captain George Steven H.

  James Wing-Com. A. W. H.

  Penny, Sir George

  Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

  Jenkins, Sir William

  Petherick, M.

  Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

  Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

  Peat, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Williams, Thomas (York., Don Valley)

  Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

  Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bliston)

  Wills, Wilfrid D.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Potter, John

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George

  Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

  Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

  Womersley, Walter James

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Worthington, Dr. John V.

  Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

  Price, Gabriel

  Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Kerr, Hamilton W.

  Pybus, Percy John

  Kirkpatrick, William M.

  Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

  Ramsbotham, Herwald

  Captain Austin Hudson and Dr. Morris-Jones.

  Knight, Holford

  Ramsden, Sir Eugene

  Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

  Ratcliffe, Arthur

  NOES.

  Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe

  Holdsworth, Herbert

  Remer, John R.

  Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

  Hopkinson, Austin

  Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Howard, Tom Forrest

  Selley, Harry R.

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Hume. Sir George Hopwood

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

  Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

  Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

  Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Denville, Alfred

  Lees-Jones, John

  Thorp, Linton Theodore

  Doran, Edward

  Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

  Touche, Gordon Cosmo

  Fermoy, Lord

  Marsden, Commander Arthur

  wells, Sydney Richard

  Fuller, Captain A. G.

  Mitcheson, G. G.

  Williams. Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

  Moreing, Adrian C.

  Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Nall, Sir Joseph

  Hanley, Dennis A.

  Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Harris, Sir Percy

  North, Captain Edward T.

  Sir Kenyon Vaughan-Morgan and Sir William Davison.

  Hartland, George A.

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Hepworth, Joseph

  Ray, Sir William

  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  AUSTRIAN LOAN GUARANTEE BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain BOUBNE in the Chair.]

  AUSTRIAN LOAN GUARANTEE BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Guarantee of portion of Austrian loan.)
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 1, line 22, to leave out the words "one hundred" and to insert instead thereof the word "fifty."
    My intention is quite clear. It is to reduce by one-half the amount of the guarantee of the British Government. I do this because I believe it is essential at the present time that some Members of this House should get up and say they think that the time has come when we should absolutely stop—or stop as near as we possibly can—any of these guarantees. I hope no one will get up and make any sort of excuse that it might affect what will be paid by other Powers, because it is laid down in the White Paper, Cmd. 4218, that the guarantees shall be several and not joint. From that point of view, we, as a Parliament, are absolutely independent and can cut down the amount of the guarantee if we wish. I see the Financial Secretary is here, and I presume he will be answering on behalf of the Government. I should like to point out that we have been returned to this House to put the finances of this country in order. That is the primary thing we were sent here for. We were not sent here to deal with Austria or any other nation. On the other hand, the Government say it is essential for the salvation of the world that Austria should be dealt with. Then let them deal with it not in the little, puny way we are doing it here, but with the whole of Central Europe on one occasion.
    Secondly, is it really wise or the right time, having regard to our own financial position and the loans which we may have incurred, for Britain to guarantee loans outside our own British Empire? I think that is the essential point which should be made at present. Then I should like to ask the Government why were these guarantees only made by a few selected Governments?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Order. The hon. Member is now getting away from the terms of his own Amendment,
    940
    which is to reduce the amount, and is going on to deal with the whole question whether there should be a loan or not.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I am sorry. There will be other opportunities in the course of the Committee stage to deal with that question, and I will deal strictly with the Amendment. Why should we be guaranteeing 100,000,000 schillings when a lot of other countries are guaranteeing nothing? I do not think I am wrong on this occasion, at any rate, in laying it down clearly that in the present financial position of the country we ought to realize how immense are the objects to which capital and credit could be put in our own country—the fishing industry and other industries. Surely the Government might have abstained on this occasion from letting us into this position where we have to guarantee this money? Not only do I think 100,000,000 schillings is too much and that 50,000,000 is quite sufficient, but if other Members wish to reduce the amount in my Amendment I shall not be against it. I have listened to all that has been said on this Bill, but I have never heard any real case made out as to why we should guarantee any part of this loan. For these reasons, I move my Amendment.
    Sir ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL: I think my hon. Friend has done a good service in calling attention to this matter, for it is our duty to draw attention to it at every stage of the Bill. There is complete justification for the hon. Member moving that we should reduce the amount if possible, and he has done good service in drawing attention to what will inevitably be a loss. The amount is £4,200,0000. We might as well call it the Austrian Gift Bill as the Austrian Loan Bill. I am not going into the reasons for the loan, because we dealt with them on the Second Reading of the Bill, and I should be out of order in discussing them now. What possibility is there of getting out of the liability which this Bill puts upon us? A large area of territory was torn away from Austria after the War, under the Treaty, and her power to earn money and pay her way has been destroyed. She has tried to maintain her old standard of living for her people since her territory was torn away from her, but it has been impossible. She has raised loan after loan for that purpose, and she cannot pay.

    941
    Poverty is reigning supreme in Austria, and from the instincts of common humanity we should like to help her, but that is not our function here. We are dealing with the taxpayers' money. No loan will put right the position in Austria. Austria cannot pay, eventually. She may hold out for some little length of time, but she cannot pay the interest on her loans.
    I have looked into the figures to see if there is any justification for our thinking that we shall be able to get out of our liability in regard to this loan. I have gone into the figures of the Austrian position and I find that on her merchandise trade she has an adverse balance for the last two years of £ 30,000,000 a year and in the current year it will probably be £ 20,000,000. It may be that the invisible exports will bring Austria £ 10,000,000 and that will go to reduce the adverse balance of £ 20,000,000 this year. But on the top of that, there is another £ 10,000,000 which she has to find for the service of foreign loans. It is impossible for her to find £ 20,000,000 for these over-frontier payments.
    I do not understand my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, a man with the keenest intellect in the House, I should say, in the arguments that he put forward in the Debate on the Second Reading on the 7th February. On page 158 of the OFFICIAL REPORT he said:
    "If Austria made default on her 1923 loan, then, straight away, we were in for a loss of £800,000 a year, which is a good, solid, practical factor."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th February, 1933; col. 158, Vol. 274.]
    The reason we are to find this money is because we run the risk of making a
    Loss—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member now appears to be making a general Second Reading speech. I have been waiting for him to come to the Amendment.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: I say that we have not in the slightest degree any hope of getting from Austria enough to pay the interest on the 100,000,000 schillings that we are guaranteeing. For that reason, the hon. Member opposite is well justified in asking that the guarantee should be reduced to 50,000,000 schillings. We are finding this money in order to prevent default on an earlier loan. Two
    942
    or three years hence we shall be called upon to find another loan so that there may be no default upon this particular guarantee which is being given in order to prevent default of the loan of 1923. We have one guarantee and loan after another. It reminds me of the story of the man who went into a shop to purchase coal. He was told that if he bought a cone it would halve his consumption of coal, whereupon he said: "I will take two cones, and do away with the consumption of coal altogether." According to the right hon. Gentleman we shall lose £ 800,000 a year if we do not make this guarantee, but the probability is that we shall lose what we are now guaranteeing. In this Clause there is no provision for our collecting the interest.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I would remind the hon. Member that we are not discussing the Question, "That the Clause stand part."
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: There is no reason to believe that there will be any precautions taken by ourselves and our cosignatory to protect the revenue. For these reasons, although we can do nothing here but make our protest, I think that it would be very much more reasonable if we were to fall in with the proposal made by the Mover of the Amendment. If we have to vote this guarantee of 100,000,000 schillings, some of us on this side of the House and other hon. Members sitting opposite, out of respect for our own knowledge of finance, cannot refrain from telling the Committee that we know that this guarantee is a piece of folly, and that the money must be lost.
    9.42 p.m.
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hore-Belisha): I listened with great attention and also with sympathy to the speeches made by my two hon. Friends. I realise the difficulties under which they have been placed, for they desire to raise very much broader issues than can be raised and answered on this Amendment. They appreciate that the Financial Resolution was carried in this House without a Division, as indeed was the Second Reading of the Bill. On the occasion of the Second Reading the House was informed that, availing ourselves of the powers conferred on us in Committee of the Whole

    943
    House, we had ratified the Protocol which was signed at Geneva on the 15th July, 1932. That being so, we are bound by the terms of that Protocol. Under the Protocol we undertook to ask Parliament for authority to guarantee a loan up to 100,000,000 schillings. My hon. Friend seeks by his Amendment, and his Amendment is purely confined to that, to reduce the 100,000,000 to 50,000,000.
    Quite apart from the merits of any reduction, the principle of a reduction cannot be acceded to within the term of the Protocol which has already been signed by His Majesty's Government, in pursuance of the authority conferred upon us. We are, therefore, bound to give this guarantee, if we are giving it at all, up to a sum of 100,000,000 schillings. Fifty million schillings would not be sufficient to assist Austria in her difficulties. I would point out to my hon. Friend the Member for Far ham (Sir A. M. Samuel) that this does not mean any additional obligation upon Austria, thereby placing her in a less advantageous position than she was in before. It means actually diminishing the obligation upon Austria, for she will use this long-term money, if and when she receives it, to pay her short-term loans, and the rate of interest will thereby in all probability be reduced. To the amount that we curtail the amount from 100,000,000 schillings she would be in a less satisfactory situation from the point of view of repaying her loans.
    I hope that I have satisfied the Committee that, whatever the merits of the actual figure suggested by my hon. Friend in his Amendment, we cannot, in view of the signature which we have put on the Protocol, reduce the sum now.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: The Financial Secretary says that the Government cannot now reduce the sum of the guarantee, although he has stated that under the Protocol the Government were to ask Parliament for authority to make the guarantee. Surely, Parliament can make a fresh decision if it chooses.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: My hon. Friend does not appear to appreciate that we acted on a Financial Resolution which was passed in Committee of the Whole House. On the occasion of that Financial Resolution my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer informed the Committee that if the Resolution were
    944
    carried Great Britain would ratify the Protocol. He informed the full Committee of that but nevertheless the Committee did not divide against the Resolution and, accordingly, my right hon. Friend authorized the ratification. France and Italy have ratified. The instrument is now a perfectly valid instrument. I gave the House an undertaking that this loan would not be made except simultaneously with France. France has ratified the Protocol, and if and when France is ready to make the loan, in accordance with the terms of the Protocol, we shall be ready also.
    9.46 p.m.
    Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDE-MAN: I am more interested in the question as it affects the Bank of England than as it affects Austria, and I would suggest that the Financial Secretary should use his persuasive influence with the Bank of England to induce them to go fifty-fifty with the Government. I do not see why the Bank of England should not be brought into this matter. They have a liability, and I am perfectly certain that sweet words from the Financial Secretary would induce the Bank of England to take on the liability on a fifty-fifty basis. It would be a gesture which would make the Bank of England much more popular than it has been lately. The people who will have to foot the bill, if we take on the whole of this liability, are taxpayers of this country. I do not know what has happened in the past. It may be that people have made promises which they would not have made after further reflection, but there is a feeling that there is something behind all this of which we know nothing. I have no doubt that it is something about which we cannot be told; and I am perfectly certain that it is something about which we shall not be told. But that there is something behind it is certain. If the Financial Secretary will accept the Amendment and use his powers with the Bank of England to carry it through he will gain the eternal gratitude of the taxpayers of this country.
    Amendment negatived.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    9.49 p.m.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: When this proposal was before the House on Second Reading some criticisms were made as

    945
    to this guarantee, but whilst we have been critical we have always borne in mind the disaster which must befall Austria if it is not given. On the last occasion my protest in the main was leveled against this Bill on two grounds; first, that France prevents Austria from having any economic arrangements with Germany, which is one of the strongest protests we can make against the Bill. Balancing the pros and cons as to whether we shall give this guarantee or not, we have to bear in mind that the condition of the people of Austria, and particularly of Vienna, would be appalling if it was not made. The other point I raised on the last occasion was in reference to the 60,000 rifles which were found passing through Austria on their way into Hungary, with a considerable number of machine guns. We have had an assurance from the Foreign Secretary that inquiries were being made into this transaction. The League of Nations has taken the matter up since, probably because of protests in the Parliaments of Europe, and the League Council have now decided to prosecute inquiries into the matter. Having the assurance from the Foreign Secretary, and seeing also that the League of Nations is taking up this question, I should advise my friends to allow the Clause to pass.
    9.51 p.m.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: I want to ask the Financial Secretary one or two questions. The service of this loan must depend on Excise and Customs receipts. I am alive to the fact that we cannot interfere with the sovereign rights of Austria or break pledges which have been given to her, but I want to ask the Financial Secretary whether in collaboration with other Powers who are guaranteeing this loan any steps have been taken, without infringing the sovereign rights of Austria, to get some control over customs and excise to ensure that the money raised may not be deflected and diverted into other channels. We can ask Austria to take such a suggestion from us made in good faith. This is a loan backed up by the recommendation of the League of Nations. There is no reason why we should not take the precaution of asking Austria to see that the control, collection and distribution of the monies received from excise and customs should be held in hands where they cannot be diverted
    946
    to other purposes. We should then get what is due for the service of this loan, and the balance could go to the general purposes of Austria. That is a proposal which I think the Financial Secretary will do well to take into consideration.
    9.53 p.m.
    Mr. BOOTHBY: This Bill will obviously go through, but the Financial Secretary will make a great mistake if he assumes that the Committee is altogether happy about it or is ready to let other Bills of a similar character go through for an indefinite period. I was interested in the speech of the Financial Secretary on the Second Beading. He informed the House that the Bank of England had advanced this money out of humanitarian motives, and he went on to say that if no national loan was raised by Austria the Bank of England could not be repaid; that is, the humanitarian money it had advanced to Austria. This Bill enables Austria to raise a national loan, which is essential if the Bank of England is to be repaid the money it has lent. Some of us think that this Bill is merely a further stage in the long and disastrous policy, pursued for many years by the Bank of England in conjunction with, the Treasury, that is, a policy of endeavoring to bolster up by means of successive loans European countries which in the nature of things can never recover; they are not in themselves economic entities.
    I agree entirely with the observations of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) on the Second Reading Debate. The condition of Austria as it was established under the terms of the St. German Treaty, for which we have a responsibility, is such that until it is altered it is perfectly useless to expect the economic recovery of Austria. It is equally useless to expect that any loans that we make to Austria under existing conditions will ever be repaid, and I believe the Financial Secretary knows that perfectly well. My hon. Friend in his speech tonight pointed out with pride that we would not guarantee this loan to Austria unless and until, pari passu, it was guaranteed by France. But surely, as my hon. Friend knows, France has a very good reason for guaranteeing this loan. France is determined to keep Austria in a condition of bankruptcy as

    947
    long as possible, and she will do it by guaranteeing loans of this character indefinitely for as many years as we are prepared to back her. France refuses absolutely to permit Austria to go into a customs union with Germany, which is the one economic move calculated to revive the dying fortunes of a top-heavy state. France, in fact, is guaranteeing this money in order to prevent Austria from entering such a union. Unless some economic measures of this kind are taken by Austria I do not believe anyone in this Committee can truthfully say that he thinks Austria will revive sufficiently from an economic point of view to repay any of the loans we are guaranteeing.
    It has been pointed out over and over again by the Government of which the Financial Secretary is so distinguished an ornament, that international government indebtedness is one of the curses of the world at the present time. That is true, and yet we go on aggravating the already difficult economic situation by making a still further loan of £ 4,500,000, and my hon. Friend comes down to the Committee and tells us that if we only make this loan— it is not as if it was the first loan—to Austria, not only will it improve the situation, but it will save Austria from an economic point of view, and put her on her feet again. I do not believe that in the long run this sort of loan helps anyone, either helps us or helps Austria; but I would say to my hon. Friend as representing the Treasury that if he really can maintain that a loan of this kind is going to pull Austria round and put her on her feet, that drives a cart and horse through the arguments addressed to the House by the Treasury during the last seven or eight months upon the subject of development loans inside this country. We are informed that a development loan in this country, if we were to undertake it for housing construction or other practical productive work, would be valueless, and would not only do no good from the point of view of curing unemployment, but would actually jeopardize gravely the economic position of the country. If an internal development loan for practical constructive work inside this country, which would at least create a tangible asset for the people of this country, is of no value, why does my hon. Friend suppose that a
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    loan of £4,500,000 to Austria at this juncture is going to save Austria? I shall be very interested to hear how the Treasury can reconcile those two completely divergent points of view.
    If we have many more of this sort of Bill I shall have to go to my constituents, to the fishermen, to the farmers who are rapidly in succession becoming bankrupt, and tell them that the Government are refusing to spend any money internally for economic reasons, that we cannot raise a loan inside this country for housing construction or development of any sort or kind, that we have gone so far as to give instructions to local authorities throughout Britain to hold up every scheme of national development and productive work of every kind, but that when it comes to Austria there is a very different story, although Austria is in fact in an economic position which makes it extremely improbable that she will ever be able to repay any loan. From humanitarian motives the Bank of England, backed by the Government of this country, has been prepared to make an additional grant of £4,500,000 in order to put Austria on her feet again, yet we cannot put our own fishermen or farmers on their feet or help unemployment.
    I ask the Financial Secretary to answer two questions: First, was this loan granted in the first place by the Bank of England with the cognizance or approval of the Government? That is a very important question. In other words, did the Government at the time give an undertaking, tacit or implied, to the Bank of England, that at some time they would come to the House and ask for the means of repaying to the Bank of England this humanitarian loan to Austria. Secondly, can the Financial Secretary say that this at any rate marks the end of a policy of granting loans to European countries which from their intrinsic position are unlikely ever to be able to repay them, and at the same time refusing loans of any sort or kind to our own people to develop our own country?
    10.2 p.m.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I would like to add to the questions that have just been put, and to ask whether, as a matter of fact, the Austrian people have been the subjects of this humanitarian effort by the

    949
    Bank of England, and whether the loan by the Bank of England was not made in order to save certain financial houses in the City of London? As a matter of fact has anything in this loan been particularly humanitarian? This loan is not to set Austria on her feet, but to take away the obligation which she has formed to the Bank of England. The Bank of England has lent money to Austria and it looks like losing it. We are told that this is a short-term loan and is to be turned into a long-term loan, but there are plenty of short-term loans which have been broken. As far as I can make out we are to take over the liability resting on the Bank of England, to unfreeze the money so far as the Bank of England is concerned and to freeze it so far as we are concerned.
    10.3 p.m.
    Captain FULLER: I do not propose to follow the last speaker. I find myself rather more in agreement with what the hon. Member for Eastern Aberdeen (Mr. Booth by) has said. Of course, the Financial Secretary is quite entitled to get the Second Reading of the Bill, because the House has passed the Financial Resolution, but since the Financial Resolution there have happened one or two things which may have escaped the attention of some hon. Members. This is not an occasion that I should have chosen to make a speech on my view of the Bill. In these days of uncertainty, when one day one walks blithely down the road and on the next day is in bed with influenza, one has to seize opportunities, and I am seizing this opportunity to say one or two things that have occurred to me in the course of last week. First of all, I would like to draw attention to two dispatches in the "Times" of 10th and 11th February. The first is as follows:
    "The Austrian Government has passed a measure prohibiting the importation till further orders, except under special permits, of cotton yarns up to Number 60 (English), listed under numbers 133 to 136 of the present Customs Tariff; yarns, bleached, mercerized, etc., up to Number 60 (English) listed under Tariff Number 137; and yarns packed for retail sale, listed under Tariff Number 139."
    That is the first dispatch. The second reads as follows:
    "The Government has introduced a Bill to empower it to increase Customs duties all round by 22 per cent.—the amount by which the Austrian schilling has depreciated
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    since September, 1931. The increase is expected to yield £ 1,400,000 (at par) annually, It is, however, feared in many quarters that the measure, if passed, would increase the cost of living and end in increasing the number of assisted unemployed which has reached a record figure. For this reason the measure will be opposed by the Socialists."
    I hope the hon. Gentlemen in front of me will cogitate upon that dispatch. It is, of course, perfectly true that we are affording advantage to Austria because of the low interest rates which she is to pay on this loan as compared with the other loan. That is all to her advantage. It has been made possible through the sacrifice of the people of this country. At the same time other Powers, as I understand it, are giving new money in capital, goods or gold to Austria, and as a result of that Austria has to pay additional interest charges on these new loans. The only possible way in which she can do that is by restricting her imports or increasing her exports. She cannot do the latter, so she naturally does the former, and makes a direct discrimination against the cotton goods of this country.
    As a Member who represents, perhaps Very imperfectly, one of the Lancashire constituencies, I, for one, cannot sit down and swallow this. The advantages which Austria receives come entirely from this country. The disadvantages which she ladles out come entirely on this country. It is going to create further unemployment in Lancashire, where, God knows, there is enough already. I, for one, will be no party to voting for any Measure in this House which will put one man out of employment if I know it. I am taking this opportunity of expressing my regret at this loan, and would like to ask the Financial Secretary if some representations cannot be made or some terms come to with Austria whereby she takes off this discrimination against us. France, in my view, has imposed a most iniquitous political condition with her loan, and we are only asking for fair play for our people. I hope the Financial Secretary will be able to give an answer which will not only satisfy me, but the people I represent.
    10.11 p.m.
    Mr. BRACKEN: This is the third Debate we have had on this question, and yet we have not received any adequate answer to the points of substance which

    951
    have been raised. We have had a series of contradictory explanations from the Financial Secretary, and from his chief, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have carefully studied the reports of what both have said, and I am in a complete fog as to what is the Government's policy with regard to this loan. Take the Chancellor of the Exchequer's apologia. He says he was not a member of the Government which was in office when the loan was made, and be does not know whether the Government guaranteed the Bank against loss. It is waste of time to consider things of that sort from the Chancellor. The plain fact is that the right hon. Gentleman cannot justify his Department's policy with regard to this loan, so he puts forward the absurd defense that he cannot say what happened because he was not in the Government at the time. He cannot even have read the records of the Treasury. So far as this Bill is concerned, the right hon. Gentleman might as well be bird watching in the Park as presiding over His Majesty's Treasury. Therefore, we must content ourselves with the exceedingly obscure, involved and contradictory explanations that have been given by the Secretary to the Treasury. He said that when the advance was made to Austria the Treasury was not committed repaying it, but added that they accepted liability at a later date. I hope I am not misinterpreting the hon. Gentleman, who has made so many explanations of explanations that it is very difficult to follow what he means.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I would like to have the hon. Member's indictment against me made absolutely plain. He has already quoted what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, stopping at the important point incidentally, but he has not quoted what I have said. He is giving his own version.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I will quote what the hon. Member said if the House wishes, but he made speeches extending to seven or eight columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT in the course of the Debate. I asked him if I did him an injustice in saying he had said the Treasury did not concur in the original loan, but on a subsequent occasion had accepted liability. Am I to understand that that is a misinterpretation of the speech?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: My hon. Friend knows we are in Committee. I only want to make quite sure what he has in mind. I want to be absolutely plain as to what he is charging me with, and I will answer him.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I am not charging the hon. Gentleman with anything. [Interruption.] The Socialists who are so eager to rush to the defense of the Government must remember that although the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones) is very clever, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is quite capable of looking after himself.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: Go for him, then.
    Mr. BRACKEN: Before we got involved in this rather squalid argument I was trying to point out that we were not indicting him. The Financial Secretary made a number of observations which it would require a very facile brain to piece together logically. No doubt he has that great gift. The person we are most anxious to make a case against is not the Financial Secretary but Lord Snowden. The real villain of this piece is Lord Snowden. He is entirely responsible for the policy which the Government adopted with regard to this Austrian loan. I am bound to say that we are much too fond of paying tributes to reputations which have passed beyond the censure of this House. I think Lord Snowden was the worst Chancellor of the Exchequer since Charles Townshend. And I think it is relevant for a moment to consider the record of Lord Snowden's general financial policy. We all know that when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer he harried every industry and worried every trade. He boasted of that achievement on the Treasury Bench. Having disordered the whole finances of the country he spends his time, in well-merited retirement, pouring vitriol on all the people who have to clear up the mess he left at the Treasury.
    The CHAIRMAN (Sir Dennis Herbert): The hon. Member is going a little too far.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I think, Sir Dennis, if you were to perceive the sequence of my arguments, you would not take that uncharitable view of my remarks. I was merely pointing out that the Financial

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    Secretary has, in this matter, to a very large extent to assume liability for Lord Snowden's policy which I believe he very much dislikes. I think it is relevant on this occasion to point out that Lord Snowden is responsible for the policy which lies behind this Bill. Let us consider Lord Snowden's policy. He took the view that the Treasury were not committed to guarantee the Bank of England against loss in respect of this loan but subsequently he accepted full liability on behalf of the Government. That seems to be one of the most illogical episodes in an extremely illogical career. It is also relevant to recall for a moment Lord Snowden's progress as the hero of The Hague. We all remember the time when he insulted foreign Governments and put our diplomatic interests in jeopardy by his extremely ill natured outburst at The Hague. That was for a matter of about £ l,600,000, and he became the hero of England when he appeared to collect that sum from the French Government—though in fact he never succeeded.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: On a point of Order. Shall I be allowed to discuss Lord Snowden and land taxes presently?
    Mr. BRACKEN: I did not follow the interruption. It appeared to have reference to land taxes which are the bane of all agricultural Members, but I thought its introduction into this Debate showed a certain vacuity which requires censure. The real origin of this loan was when Lord Snowden returned to London as a sort of Cromwell of finance and was received in the bosom of the City of London and went to the Mansion House where turtle-fed aldermen entertained him to lunch—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member may have been in order in recalling an incident of Lord Snowden's career, but he is not in order in following the complete progress of Lord Snowden.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I bow to your Ruling, Sir Dennis, and I would not inflict on the House the whole of Lord Snowden's curious political career. What I was pointing out was that it was just after the episode of The Hague that he committed us to this loan. He then discarded the trappings of the Iron Chancellor in order to appear as the fairy godmother of the Bank of England. That is why
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    we wish to enter a reasonably emphatic protest against his whole policy. We recall that the man who slashed every social service, and who cut down unemployment benefit, was willing to subsidies bankers. We mere Tories strongly object to that attitude. In order to keep within the bounds of order, I shall say nothing more about Lord Snowden's conduct in regard to this loan beyond applying to it his own favorite word, "grotesque." We have another and I think an important duty to discharge tonight, namely, to consider the part of the Bank of England in connection with this loan.
    When the Bank made this loan to Austria, mug ump newspapers came out with leading articles calling it a noble and generous gesture and preachers pointed out in the pulpit that the Bank had done what no State would do, that is, to save Austria from bankruptcy and general ruin. I was willing to accept the view that it was a noble and generous act on the part of the Bank. I personally, and I suppose every other Member, greatly regretted that the Bank sustained a heavy loss through this generous advance to Austria, but there is a very important difference between regretting a loss and paying for it, and what we are being asked to do tonight is to pay for the loss.
    I think we ought to ask ourselves—and I hope the Financial Secretary will answer this question very carefully—why the Government have thrust the liability for the Bank's advance on the taxpayer, because that is the basis of this Debate. It may be said that the amount of the advance was so great that it would strain the Bank of England's resources, but we all know that that is an utterly futile argument. Every day in the City of London the joint stock banks have to make advances to British industries, which in the course of a year, if they were all added together, would show losses of a great deal more than £4,000,000 in those banks' endeavors to encourage British trade. In view of that, it is singularly unconvincing to say that the advance to the Creditanstalt will so strain the Bank of England's resources that we ought to step in now and assist them. I must say that the joint stock banks do not whine-about their losses. They do not come down to Whitehall and ask that the Government should discharge the liabilities

    955
    which they have incurred when they have made advances to industries in Lancashire, Yorkshire, or elsewhere in this country. They know very well that they would be chased out of Whitehall if they were to dare to ask for a Treasury assistance to justify the advances, prudent or otherwise, made by them to industry in this country.
    We must ask ourselves this question: What is the all-pervading power which has turned the Treasury into the West End branch of the Bank of England? I hope the Financial Secretary will explain that development. I have the greatest admiration for the Governor of the Bank of England and for the Bank of England itself. I think the Governor has qualities of enterprise and determination which we fail to discern in the occupants of the Treasury Bench, but, much as I admire him, we are here to protect public money, and so if the Bank of England cares to make a loan to Austria, and loses its money, I think the Bank ought to stand the racket. I do not think the House of Commons, as representing the taxpayers, should be called in to bear burdens of that sort.
    Another point of importance arises, and that is that the financial commitments of this country ought not to be determined by the Governor of the Bank of England. If the Governor is so well fitted to determine our financial commitments, then for goodness' sake make him Chancellor of the Exchequer, so that we may have an opportunity of exercising some control over him. If that were done, we should have an opportunity of inquiring into the policy which led to this advance to Austria. The Government's attitude to this Bill is really an affront to the whole House. We have had three long Debates on this subject, in which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has attempted to answer some of the points we made, but, owing to the fact that his chief laid down the line that Ministers did not know what happened before they went to the Treasury, we have not been able to get information which has been of the least assistance to us.
    I have no doubt that the Government will succeed in carrying the Bill through tonight. I do not read many politicians' speeches in the newspapers, but I have heard that from time to time highly
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    respected Members of this House go to their constituents and explain that the poverty of the country is the sole reason why the Government have not done something for slum clearance or for the dire poverty in our midst. That has been the argument with which they have justified the policy of intense restriction which the Government have followed. But are hon. Members quite happy in voting £ 4,500,000 as a Bank of England Relief Bill? This money is not going to Austria but to the vaults of the Bank of England, which it ought never to have left if we have to repay it. Are hon. Members entirely happy about this policy of cutting down every social service, restricting every form of development, affording no relief sums or for advancing other justifiable State policies, and at the same time saying that Parliament can approve a Bill to confirm a loan of £4,500,000 to the Austrian Government, which incidentally will be passed on to the Bank of England, which is not the poorest corporation in this country? If hon. Members are happy in voting tonight for this loan, I believe they will be less happy when the next General Election comes along.
    10.26 p.m.
    Mr. MAXTON: I have been interested in the Debate this evening and somewhat amazed at the strong views expressed by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Booth by) and other hon. Members on the Government Benches, because on the last occasion when this question was before the House and the matter came to be decided on by voting in the Division Lobby, my hon. Friends and I called "No," and were ready to go into the Lobby if there had been any evidence of support for our point of view.
    Mr. BRACKEN: The hon. Member must have called so loudly that he did not observe the "Noes" that came from us.
    Mr. MAXTON: The hon. Member may have said "No," but he must have taken care that it was inaudible not only to me, but to the Government Whips. My hon. Friends and I do not want to be perpetually going into the Lobby in groups of three, two or nothing, but if tonight there is a possibility of gallant hordes of Government supporters joining us, we shall be only too glad to act as their

    957
    humble servants at the Table. It seems to me very peculiar that on an important matter of this description—because it is important—the most responsible Cabinet Ministers have, perhaps accidentally, but nevertheless noticeably, refrained from being present during the various discussions. It may be that an expenditure of £4,500,000 is now a very trivial matter to the Government, and that the national finances have been put into such very fine order that we can throw £4,500,000 about quite freely. If that be the case, let the House know it, and those of us who have other ways in which we think £4,500,000 might be spent could begin to put forward our claims, about which we have been silent knowing the national difficulties.
    I assume that the absence of the responsible Ministers of the Crown is not due to the fact that they deliberately want to put an affront on the House, but that they are busily engaged in some room behind the Speaker's Chair considering the last minute instructions that they are to give to the people who are going over to explain to America why we should not pay the debt that we have honorably undertaken over there, while they send the Financial Secretary to the House to persuade us to pay a debt that we never undertook at all. I want the Financial Secretary to explain to me, as a plain and simple man, just exactly what is the guiding principle that governs the Government's policy on these foreign debt questions. Here we are applying all our brains to get out of the American debt and explaining to America how harmful it will be to America if we pay that debt, while we are insisting that Ireland should pay us her debt, and now the Government are insisting that we shall develop an entirely new debt with Austria. The Financial Secretary knows how very difficult all this must be for people like ourselves. Those who have to handle large sums of money in their personal affairs grip these things just at once, but those of us who have been brought up to incur debts as small as possible, and to pay them as speedily as we can, get all mixed up when we are confronted with what seems to us a complete contradiction in the various ways of dealing with the various foreign commitments.
    958
    I am quite sure that there is some general principle running through them all, in spite of the superficial difficulties. I cannot believe that the National Government, when they get into the Cabinet room, work on the principle of saying, "Well, there are a certain number of Liberals here, a certain number of Conservatives and a certain number of Labor people, and on this issue we will go the Liberal way, on this other one go the Conservative way, and on this third one go the Labor way"—a scrap to each. That would not be a National Government, and I cannot believe that is how the Cabinet come to their decisions, but I am perfectly certain that many people in the country are inclined to believe that that is the case. I hope the hon. Gentleman in his reply will clear away the fogs that hang over the minds of myself and my hon. Friends who sit on this bench, and, if he fails to clear away those mists, I hope those supporters of the Government who have spoken out so courageously tonight will carry their point of view into the Division Lobby, when what little support we are able to present to them will be freely and generously given.
    10.33 p.m.
    Mr. HARCOURT JOHNSTONE: In intervening for a few moments, first of all, I think, to assist the Financial Secretary in his duel with my hon. Friend, the Member for North Padding ton (Mr. Bracken), I would like to quote a passage which I am sure my hon. Friend would have been glad to use if he had had it handy. The Financial Secretary, speaking on the last occasion when this subject was debated said:
    "The Bank of England made the loan to Austria in June, 1931, on its own initiative, but His Majesty's Government at that date, though not the present Government, was informed of and expressed its concurrence in what the Bank of England was doing. The Bank of England made it a term of this advance that it should be repaid in full out of the proceeds of the first national loan that was floated by Austria, which was then considered a proximate possibility."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th February, 1933; col. 133, Vol. 274.]
    I think that to any unprejudiced listener the course of events must be reasonably clear, but I. am sure the Committee would be grateful to the hon. Gentleman if he would set their minds at rest. My own reading of the event is this, that, although

    959
    the House was sitting, the Government were not willing or able to come down to the House to ask for the money to be voted, and said to the Bank of England: "If you will advance the money and give us time to negotiate with other countries for a joint loan, you may rely upon it that our share of the loan will be repaid to you." As a matter of fact, I am certain that that is what occurred. I see no reason why the Financial Secretary should not say so quite plainly. There is nothing disgraceful about it. If the loan to Austria was an immediate necessity in order to prevent a collapse which would carry in its train losses far greater than the £4,300,000 that is proposed, the Government would be justified in making it. The method which they adopted, because they could not get co-guarantors for the loan in a great hurry, has nothing disgraceful about it. The only thing which makes one uneasy is that the method should not be avowed, but that this air of mystery should have been created by the Financial Secretary around what, on the face of it, must have been a perfectly simple transaction.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but I know that he is a very eminent Liberal and that he is very keen on carrying on the Glad stonian principle of the control of finance by the House of Commons. Does he say that there is nothing wrong in the Government making an advance to a foreign country which they dare not bring before Parliament, but which they ask their bankers to make when the House of Commons is not in Session?
    Mr. JOHNSTONE: I will make the hon. Gentleman a present of that argument. The Government have a responsibility, but, if the thing is so urgent that it must be done at once and the Government cannot get the Members of the House of Commons together or secure the co-guarantors for a loan of an international character in a short enough space of time, it may adopt the same method as was adopted by the hon. Gentleman's Leader, and it may go out and borrow the money. I do not commend the method as a general principle, but I cannot see why the Government, if that was the method they did adopt, should not say so quite straightforwardly.
    960
    The point which I think is of even greater importance is as to the policy of the Government in regard to the situation of Austria in Europe. My hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) raised the question in a speech on the last occasion, and the Foreign Secretary was present in the House and answered on the Debate. The Foreign Secretary avoided making any reference to the point which my hon. Friend then raised, which was this: Is it the policy, the deliberate and thought out policy, of the Government to stabilize for 20 years—
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: On a point of Order. I raise in my Amendment on the Schedule this point as to the position of Austria in Europe. The Foreign Secretary quoted the point in the speech to which the hon. Gentleman is referring. I wish to safeguard my Amendment.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member need not trouble about safeguarding his Amendment. It has gone already.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I am not referring to my first Amendment, but the second Amendment to the Schedule, on page 3, to leave out lines 16 to 20.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am referring to the hon. Gentleman's second Amendment.
    Mr. JOHNSTONE: The point is quite clear. The Foreign Secretary did not meet the point. It is this: Does the policy of the Government deliberately involve the stabilization of the conditions of the Protocol and of the Treaty of St. Germain? If it is the deliberate policy of the Government to stabilize the present condition of Austria, and to concur with the French in preventing to the best of their ability any Auschluss or trade agreement by Austria, then I think that a Committee of the House is entitled to know it. The hon. Gentleman who just interrupted me gave the Foreign Secretary, most unfortunately, a very good excuse for not answering the question of my hon. Friend the Member for East Wolver Hampton. He raised the point as to some sinister secret agreement. Of course, there is no necessity for any secret agreement, and the Foreign Secretary was able to deny that with force and vigor, without making any answer to the perfectly straight question as to what the Government's policy

    961
    really is. I think it would be very greatly to the advantage of the Committee if we could have now an answer from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury as to whether it is, and will continue to be in any future financial negotiations with Austria, the policy of the Government to force upon Austria for perhaps the next 20 or 25 years an economic condition which can only destroy Austria itself, and act as a running sore in the very middle of Europe, which, according to the Financial Secretary, he is busily engaged in saving by the promotion of this loan.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I should not have risen again on Clause 1 but for the fact that a point has been raised which I and others raised on the last occasion. Many of us feel very bitterly with regard to certain words which are included in the Schedule, though it is a little difficult to know how to discuss, on Clause 1, those words which are in the Schedule. As, however, we are guaranteeing the money in Clause 1, I think it is a reason for not guaranteeing the money that it is laid down very clearly and definitely in another part of the Bill, Amendments to which, apparently, are not going to be called, that Austria is not to be allowed to make any sort or kind of trade agreement with her neighbors in the center of Europe. The hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. H. John stone) has said that I did not put the question very clearly. I admit that in the middle of my question I said something about secret agreements, but I thought I was dealing with someone who was going to give a direct answer to the question which I put in my last words:
    "I think the House is entitled to know perfectly clearly and once for all whether there has been any sort or kind of foreign agreement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th February, 1933; col. 168, Vol. 274.]
    I forgot that not so long ago the Foreign Secretary had some associations with the hon. Gentleman who has just been speaking, and, apparently, has not quite forgotten all the tricks that sometimes happen, but most Foreign Ministers would have immediately replied to that question as my main question. The right hon. Gentleman, however, sailed away on the question of secret agreements, and we got no further. Where the hon. Member for East Wolver Hampton (Mr. Mander) got I do not know, but I pressed my question again—which the hon. Mem-
    962
    ber did not—and we then had a further reference by the Foreign Secretary to the words which I desire to leave out of the Schedule, and which I cannot now discuss. At any rate, the whole position is laid down in those words, and I think that before the House passes Clause 1, which guarantees the money, some reason might be given as to why the British Government and the British Foreign Secretary allow our country to be driven into a treaty of this kind simply because the French and Italian Governments have said that they would not find the money unless, as I understand it, the number of years for which this treaty runs were further extended.
    I should like to have an answer to the question which I made quite clear the other day, before we allow this Clause to pass— though I should be averse from dividing against the Clause— namely, for how much longer a period Austria is not to be allowed to make some commercial treaty which will enable her to get out of the position in which she is at the present time. It is a very important point and one upon which many of us feel deeply. I know that the Socialist party will not fight on this or any other question if they can help it. It is utterly wrong that the force of our Government should be used to enforce conditions upon Central Europe by means of a loan of this kind while we are not going to do anything, apparently, for something like 20 years to get rid of what is one of the greatest troubles of civilisation, namely, the hopeless boundaries which exist in Central Europe at the present time.
    10.46 p.m.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Nothing stimulates indignation so much as the feeling that there is somewhere a hidden hand. For my part, I will do my best to remove any idea that a hidden hand exists in this business. I will tell the Committee frankly everything that I know, and I do not think that there is anything to conceal. The Credit Anstalt failed in 1931. The Bank of England came to the assistance of Austria. The Government of the day was, of course, made aware of the situation. It was sympathetic towards assistance being given to Austria, but the loan was made entirely upon the initiative of the Bank of England. The Bank of England received no undertaking from the Government that the Government

    963
    would make a guaranteed loan. The Bank of England, however, advanced the money to Austria, a sum of 150,000,000 schillings, which has since been reduced, by repayment, to 100,000,000 schillings. It was so sure that it would be repaid that it lent the money upon weekly terms, Austria promising to repay the Bank out of the first loan that was made. Austria was not, however, able, owing to the financial condition of the markets, to make a loan, and certain of the Powers who had guaranteed the 1923 loan undertook to guarantee a further loan subject to certain conditions and certain safeguards. Austria was to put her finances completely in order and to regulate her commerce. That is the position, in very brief language, today. The Protocol summarizing the arrangement which I have mentioned has been ratified at Geneva in pursuance of the authority given by this House. It has also been ratified by France and by Italy: Let me at once remove certain misapprehensions. No money has yet been guaranteed. My hon. Friend the Member for Ardwick (Captain Fuller) had some complaint to make about the treatment to which our cotton goods were subjected in Austria. Let me tell him at once, that what he has said is at this moment the subject of consideration, and, if necessary, if the grievance be justified, representation will immediately be made to Austria. No loan has yet been made, nor does it follow, if a loan be made, that any taxpayer in this country will be dignified. There is no Austrian loan which is in default. The 1923 loan has been met, and I trust will continue to be met. We are not entitled to take away from Austria her just reputation. It must be admitted that she has hitherto paid her debts.
    Mr. BRACKEN: That suggestion was made by the hon. Member himself, because he told the House the other night that unless we made this loan to Austria she would be unable to meet the loan we made in 1922.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am trying to give a consecutive narrative to the Committee, and I am trying to render justice where justice is due. Austria has not defaulted upon any loan. It is quite true that Austria might default in the future,
    964
    and we are naturally anxious, in view of the international repercussion, to prevent that country from defaulting, but there has been no actual default, and the result of our guaranteed loan will be that Austria's financial position will be improved. That goes without saying. Her liabilities will be contracted because, as I have already informed the Committee, a short-term loan at higher rates of interest will be converted into a long term loan at lower rates of interest. We and the committee of experts who have examined this question are perfectly satisfied that Austria is making progress in putting her finances in order and will be in a position to meet her liabilities. Therefore there is no ground to fear that the British taxpayer will be called upon to meet any obligation. We must remember any loan that has yet been made has been met.
    Mr. BOOTHBY: When there is default, will we make another loan?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: It is impossible to satisfy my hon. Friend. He dislikes this loan and I appreciate his dislike. I have told, however, the circumstances in which the loan was made and its history. No man as well traveled as he is ignorant of the reactions of a failure in one country on its neighbors. I have not tried to make any sanguine prophecies about this loan or to pass any encomiums upon it. I have told the House the plain blunt story of how we have made the loan. Another point made was that it was all very well to make a loan but why was a political condition imposed. No new political condition is imposed upon Austria. The facts are that, by the Treaty of St. Germany, the independence of Austria is inalienable otherwise than with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations. The Protocol accompanying the loan that was made to Austria in 1923 reiterated the statement I have just made to the House and Austria undertook in return for that loan not to alienate the independence which she had promised in the Treaty of St. Germany not to yield. That Protocol is repeated in the present Bill. France would not have advanced the money nor would Italy if it had not been repeated in the present Bill. If Austria wanted the money she had to reiterate the Protocol which simply reaffirms the condi-

    965
    tion and is simply recited in the preamble to the Protocol. It is not put there by our instructions but by the desire of France and Italy to have the status quo reaffirmed, which is in fact the Treaty position. I do not think it can be said that we are imposing any unfair condition upon Austria.
    Captain CAZALET: Has there not been an interpretation by the International Court of Justice at the Hague which makes it far more difficult for Austria to make a commercial agreement with Germany than under the Treaty of St. Germany?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: There is nothing in this Protocol which prevents Austria from making any trade or commercial agreement.
    Captain CAZALET rose—
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am sorry. If my hon. and gallant Friend does not follow me, I will willingly give way again, but there is nothing in the Protocol which prevents Austria from making any commercial agreement. My hon. Friend the Member for the Bridgeton Division (Mr. Maxton) in a very provocatively-phrased speech—I do not mean provocative in an offensive sense, but provocative of thought—tried to involve me in a theoretical argument. I am not very much attached to theories—attachment to theories has been the downfall of more than one political party—I am concerned with a purely practical issue. I, nevertheless, will try to draw, in one sentence, the distinction which the hon. Member for Bridgeton invited me to draw. He asked me to state what makes the difference between a loan made by us to Austria and a loan made by the United States to us. The loan that we are guaranteeing, or that we are taking power to guarantee, to Austria, is a loan for constructive purposes, to enable a distressed country to rehabilitate itself. The loan which the United States made to us has been blown to pieces in a world war, and was not made for productive purposes. I do not think that I need draw the distinction more finely than that. I will say that it is not the general policy of His Majesty's Government to make loans to foreign countries, but there is an exception to be made in the case of Austria.
    Mr. BRACKEN: Why?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: My hon. Friend has been present throughout the Debates on this subject and he has heard a full explanation of the peculiar situation of Austria. There is an exception to be made in this case. In any event, no money will pass out of this country; it will remain here.
    Clause 2 (Short Title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    SCHEDULE.—(Austrian Protocol.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this be the Schedule to the Bill.'
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: On the Schedule, I have an Amendment down.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member's Amendment is not in order.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: But I can speak on the Schedule. There are several questions that I wish to ask. The first question arises on line 16 and I want to know precisely what the words mean. The words are:
    "The above Governments, including the Austrian Government, declare that such assistance is given on the basis of Protocol Number 1 signed at Geneva on the 14th October, 1922."
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Will the hon. Member allow me to interrupt him for a moment? I dealt at some length with that Clause in the Protocol. It is the political clause, and I thought that I had explained it fully.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I admit that the hon. Member did deal at some length with some part of it but I have a question to put, and I intend to put the question until I can get an answer. I am not in a position at the present time to raise the details, although I should have liked to do so. It is wrong that we do not know clearly how the position stands. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was clear on one point earlier. But there is a point which has never been cleared up, and that is whether the Protocol of 22nd October does lengthen the time or not. I think that it does. I have had conversations with people who may be likely to know about these things, and I want to know whether the original Protocol—
    It being Eleven of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS BILL, 1932.
  Resolved,
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section one of that Act to the urban district of Tottenham, which was presented on the 7th day of February, 1933, be approved."—[Mr Stanley.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section one of that Act to the urban district of Sid cup, which was presented on the 7th day of February, 1933, be approved."—[Mr. Stanley.]
  11.3 p.m.
  Mr. SMITHERS: After a Debate on international affairs it may seem rather small to come down to the urban district council of Sid cup, but I can assure the House that there is a strong feeling against this Order in Sid cup. Some of the points made in the Debate which took place last night on the Adjournment apply with great force to Sid cup; but I will not dwell upon that. It is a case where a general principle laid down by this House to apply to the whole of the country is working harshly in one particular locality. Sid cup is a peculiar and exceptional case. The Act under which these Orders are made was intended to allow local inhabitants to express their opinion as to whether they wished to have Sunday opening of cinemas or not. I am bound, in duty to a large number of my constituents who have made representations to me, to put the position before the House. We have tried, but the time has been very short. My constituents have sent a memorial to me and also sent a deputation to the Home Secretary, but he did not see fit to receive the deputation. I do not complain of that, but as he did not see the deputation only one course is open to me, and that is to raise the matter when the Order is brought before the House. Sid cup I know very well, I was born there. It is the biggest place in my constituency.
  968
  I understand that the duty of the Home Office is this: There are certain regulations laid down for a locality to decide for itself whether or not it wishes to have Sunday opening of cinemas, and the only duty of the Home Office is to see that those regulations are properly carried out. They then put a Motion on the Paper, and it is for the House to decide whether the Order shall be carried or not. I have made careful inquiries from the Government and I am given to understand that this is not considered a first-class issue, and that if this Motion is not carried tonight the Government win not resign. So I ask the House as friends to listen to me while I explain the peculiar circumstances of this case.
  Mr. BATEY: You are preventing a more important matter from being raised. This is the third time we have been stopped.
  Mr. SMITHERS: This is the first and the only time I have had an opportunity of raising the matter, and I intend to proceed and to put my case.
  Mr. BATEY: It is not fair.
  Mr. SMITHERS: I ask the House to listen to the peculiar circumstances and not to pass this Order tonight.
  Mr. LAWSON: You did not play cricket when you went to school.
  Mr. SMITHERS: I ask the House to imagine that the center of the House is High Street, Sid cup. There is a very curious position in that town. Hazlehurst is the oldest place in the district and Sid cup has grown up since. It is a curious anomaly that the dividing line between the local districts of Chislehurst and Sid cup runs down the middle of High Street, Sid cup. The south side is in Chislehurst and the north side in Sid cup, though anyone going down the High Street would say it was all one small town. The people who live on the south side are not municipal electors in the Sid cup area, and therefore they were not able to express an opinion as to whether there should be Sunday opening or not. I am informed on first-rate authority that people on the south side of the High Street are just as keenly interested in the question of Sunday opening as those on the north side, and that three-quarters

  969
  of them, if they had the power to vote, would vote against Sunday opening of cinemas.
  Another peculiar circumstance is this: For the last two years there has been inquiry conducted through the Ministry of Health whereby the Kent County Council are to have powers to rearrange the local boundaries of that particular district. There will be rural authorities turned into urban authorities, amalgamations will take place between the various areas of the existing local authorities, and new areas will be formed. It is for this reason that I ask that the Order shall not be passed tonight, because quite soon the Kent County Council scheme for the rearrangement of areas will go through and then will be the time when the people who live in the district and who are affected by the Sunday opening will have the right, which they have not now, to vote on this question. To
  show how extraordinary is the position— [Interruption.]—I would remind hon. Members opposite that if they had some special local topic they wanted to bring forward—
  Mr. LAWSON: We have a far bigger thing.
  Mr. SMITHERS: They would take the opportunity of doing it, and I intend to exercise my right. I do not mind being interrupted by a back bench Member, but I think it is hardly fair to be interrupted by people who call themselves front bench Members. This area is so much one that it is all one postal area, and the parish church of Sid cup is in reality in the parish of Chisleburst. This district, which has been asking to express its opinion as to Sunday opening, is not able to do so through the force of circumstances. I ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department to consent to withdraw this Order until the rearrangement of the boundaries has been made, or I must ask the House to support me in this plea for the rejection of the Motion if it is not withdrawn.
  11.13 p.m.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I intervene only to explain to the House what the position of the Government is in regard to these
  970
  Orders. The duty is put on the Home Secretary, wherever certain formalities are complied with in an area, and an Order is submitted to the Home Secretary for approval, to submit that Order to the House. The only responsibility he incurs in doing that is that he has satisfied himself that the formalities of the Act have been carried out. It is for the House to decide whether it will approve or not of the Order. When the hon. Member spoke of the Home Office refusing to receive a deputation he might have explained that we refused because we had no power in the matter, and it would have been waste of time. When he suggests that we should withhold this Order, we have no power to do that either. So far the House has acted on the principle, and I think the right one, that they would only interfere with the declared wishes of the majority of the population in any area on very special grounds. I have no doubt that, in this case, the House will consider whether there is enough in the grounds which my hon. Friend has submitted, to make them reverse the general attitude adopted towards these Orders of accepting the majority decision of the inhabitants of the area as a good and sufficient reason for allowing the Order to pass.
  11.16 p.m.
  Sir B. PETO: It is true, as the Under-Secretary has said, that the matter is in the hands of the House and not of his Department. Section 1 (5) of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, provides that the opening of cinemas on Sunday
  "shall also extend to any borough or county district to which it may be extended by an Order laid before Parliament in accordance with the provisions of the Schedule to this Act and approved by a Resolution passed by each House of Parliament."
  These Orders have to be placed on the Table of the House and brought before the House for approval. This is the proper and only occasion on which the House can express any opinion upon such an Order, and I think it is monstrous when, under the Rules of the House, we have an opportunity of this kind, hon. Members should object to any hon. Member bringing forward a case which peculiarly concerns the district which he represents. We debated last night the influence exercised by the trade in these polls. In this particular case it was by the narrowest

  971
  possible margin that the district of Sid cup decided in favor of Sunday opening. It was by a majority of 154. There is a perfectly arbitrary division between Lower Chislehurst and Sid cup. The cinema theatre in question is actually in this High Street, and so is the church which has been referred to. The people on one side of the street are, generally speaking, opposed to Sunday opening; the people on the other side of the street, by a majority of 154— secured by importing voters from districts which are more nearly connected with Woolwich than with either Chislehurst or Sidcup—decided in favor of Sunday opening.
  In these circumstances, conditions have arisen which justify this procedure of asking the House to approve in each individual case, and of giving Members the opportunity of bringing before the House the peculiar circumstances of a case. I cannot imagine a case in which there is more justification for postponing action on the part of the House of Commons than the present case. The hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Smithers) has pointed out that if the scheme now before the Ministry of Health for the amalgamation of these districts is to be enforced, then the people who have just as great an interest in the question of Sunday opening as those who live on the opposite side of the street, will have a voice in the matter. They have no voice at present. If the matter is postponed for a few weeks then the people affected by the opening of the cinema will be able to decide the matter. That was the purpose of the Act passed last year—that the people in the district affected should have the right of saying whether they wanted Sunday opening or not. In this case only the people on one side of the street in which the cinema is situated have had the opportunity of voting and it is monstrous if those on the other side of the street are to have no say in the matter. I appreciate the position of the Under-Secretary who has proceeded with perfect propriety, as he always does, in the exercise of his office. He is only instructed under the Act to place an Order before the House for the decision of the House as to whether the Order is to be confirmed or not.
  I ask the House to say that under the peculiar circumstances of the case, when
  972
  only the people living in a part of the area affected have had a chance of voting at all, it is not right to pass this Order to-night. I ask whether the Under-Secretary will not withdraw the Order and allow a reasonable delay so that Members may get to know the facts of the case. I knew nothing about this until one o'clock today. It is forced upon us because, in the exercise of his duty, the Under-Secretary of State must put these Orders on the Paper, but now that the matter has been raised surely he will give the House time for reasonable consideration of it. On all the evidence brought before the House the Order should not be confirmed—
  Sir JOSEPH NALL: On a point of Order. Is it not a fact that this matter can only be postponed till tomorrow, that if the hon. Member's request is acceded to postponement cannot be for an indefinite period, that it must be brought up again day after day, and therefore that the only course to pursue is to vote "Aye" or "No" to-night?
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I do not think that is so at all. It could be postponed till any time within the period during which the Order has to lie on the Table.
  Sir B. PETO: As I say, the circum-stances are peculiar. They are precisely the circumstances which justify the procedure under the Act which gives the House the right to decide in these matters, and as the House has had no opportunity generally of knowing anything about it until the matter was raised today, at least, even if the hon. Member's point was correct, there would be ample justification for postponing the matter till to-morrow, when the House might be able to decide rightly on this matter. Tonight the House cannot so decide, but in accordance with your Ruling, the matter can be postponed so long as we are within the period of days during which the Order has to lie on the Table of the House.
  11.24 p.m.
  Mr. W. S. MORRISON: I wish to support what has fallen from my hon. Friend. It is clear from what has been said by the Under-Secretary of State that in this matter the Government are not intervening of their own volition, but merely

  973
  mechanically in pursuance of their duty under the Act, and that this is a matter for the House itself to decide. As I understand the scheme of the Act, it was that, as far as possible, the wishes of the majority of the inhabitants, once ascertained, should be respected by this House, and that only in exceptional circumstances should this House intervene to exercise the safeguard of blocking one of these Motions. From what has been said it is clear that we have here both the circumstances fulfilled in which the House should exercise that safeguard. In the first place we have not ascertained the wishes of the majority of the people resident in the area. Owing to the reorganisation of the local government area in question, it is clear that when the reorganisation is completed you will have a new area bound by a decision of the inhabitants of only a part of it, and that therefore we have not ascertained what the people in the area want.
  In these circumstances, I submit that it is proper for the House to intervene and wait until the wishes of the real majority who are affected by this Order can be ascertained. In the second place, I would say that this is one of those cases in which the majority given by only a part of the area affected is so narrow as to justify the House in holding the matter up until it can be settled. The main point to bear in mind in this matter is that the wishes of the majority have not been ascertained, and that a great number of people are averse to this in the new area which will soon be joined to Sid cup. Until that reorganisation is complete it will be impossible for the House to be satisfied that the condition precedent for the authorisation of this Order is satisfied. I am sure that none of us who hold certain views in these matters would wish lightly to intervene in these Orders. We believe that when the people of the locality have had an opportunity of expressing their views, this House should not readily interfere with that decision, and should not lightly stop these Orders as they are going through, but in view of what has been said by my hon. Friends it is clear that this is one of those exceptional cases where the House should divide against the Order and thus discharge a duty placed on it when the Act was passed last year. In so doing the House would by no means be going against any
  974
  decision of the Government, because the Government are merely bringing this forward as in duty bound and as laid down by law, but we should be doing our duty to the inhabitants if we negative the Motion and so allowed the matter to be further considered by the new area.
  11.27 p.m.
  Mr. STANLEY: I want to respond at once to the appeal that was made to me by my hon. Friend the Member for Barn staple (Sir B. Peto), who asked whether it was possible to withhold or postpone this Order for a period. When I spoke originally, I said that the Government could not do that. What I meant was that we had no power to hold the Order over pending a reorganisation which may take place in a few weeks or a few months. That is different from withholding it to suit the convenience of the House of Commons, and, if it is the general view of the House that the Order should be further considered, I am prepared to move the adjournment of the Debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Vote!"] I am put in a difficult position when, the hon. Member for Barn staple having been loudly applauded by the House, I rise to accede to what seems to be the general sense of the House. I find that Members are anxious to vote. I am in the hands of the House. If they would rather proceed to a vote immediately, I will not move to adjourn the Debate.
  11.29 p.m.
  Sir J. NALL: Some of us said "Vote" not with any intention of being discourteous to the hon. Gentleman. The point is, as was said by the previous speakers, that this matter cannot be postponed until the locality has re-considered its decision. Therefore there is no point whatever in merely postponing this present Order. It would postpone it until next week, and we should be in the same position then, and there will not have been a further opportunity for the locality to give a vote. In these circumstances, without prejudice to the ultimate issue, the only possible course to pursue is either to pass the Motion now with all its unfairness to the district concerned, or negative the Motion and allow the reorganized locality to put up another Order.
  11.30 p.m.
  Major PROCTER: As a resident of Sid cup I well remember the election which decided this issue. At that election we had an illustration of a very powerful minority utilising all the gaudy procedure of Hollywood, to capture the imagination of a number of people who had just come to reside in the locality, while the quiescent long residents in the neighborhood had no opportunity of deciding the question at all. I hope, therefore, that tonight we will have a vote on this matter, so that the voice of the people may prevail.
  Question, "That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday
  976
  Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending section one of that Act to the urban district of Sid cup, which was presented on the 7th day of February, 1933, be approved," put, and negatived.
  Resolved,
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section one of that Act to the borough of Leyton, which was presented on the 7th day of February, 1933, be approved."—[Mr. Stanley.]
  It being half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  DOMINION TARIFFS.
  DOMINION TARIFFS.
  NEW ZEALAND EXCHANGE.
  NEW ZEALAND EXCHANGE.
  GERMAN OATS.
  GERMAN OATS.
  FINLAND.
  FINLAND.
  IMPERIAL PREFERENCE.
  IMPERIAL PREFERENCE.
  AFRICAN COLONIES, FOREIGN POWERS.
  AFRICAN COLONIES, FOREIGN POWERS.
  TARIFF CONVENTION, HOLLAND AND BELGIUM.
  TARIFF CONVENTION, HOLLAND AND BELGIUM.
COAL INDUSTRY.
  REORGANISATION COMMISSION.
  REORGANISATION COMMISSION.
  COAL AND COKE (HEATING VALUE).
  COAL AND COKE (HEATING VALUE).
  TRINIDAD (WATER SUPPLY).
  TRINIDAD (WATER SUPPLY).
  KENYA (NATIVE LANDS TRUST ORDINANCE).
  KENYA (NATIVE LANDS TRUST ORDINANCE).
  TANGANYIKA (FINANCIAL MISSION REPORT).
  TANGANYIKA (FINANCIAL MISSION REPORT).
  SIERRA LEONE (MINERAL CONCESSION).
  SIERRA LEONE (MINERAL CONCESSION).
  EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.
  EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.
  POLITICAL REFUGEES, HONG KONG AND SINGAPORE.
  POLITICAL REFUGEES, HONG KONG AND SINGAPORE.
BRITISH ARMY.
  SINGAPORE BASE (EXPENDITURE).
  SINGAPORE BASE (EXPENDITURE).
  INDUSTRIAL EMPLOYéS, ROYAL ARSENAL.
  INDUSTRIAL EMPLOYéS, ROYAL ARSENAL.
  POLAND AND LITHUANIA.
  POLAND AND LITHUANIA.
  ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY (CONCESSION).
  ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY (CONCESSION).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (OFFICIAL REPORT, TYPISTS).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (OFFICIAL REPORT, TYPISTS).
  BEER DUTY.
  BEER DUTY.
HOUSING.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  WOKKING-CXASS DWELLINGS (COST).
  WOKKING-CXASS DWELLINGS (COST).
  PUBLIC WORKS, NORTH WALES (LOANS).
  PUBLIC WORKS, NORTH WALES (LOANS).
  POOR LAW RELIEF, NORTH WALES.
  POOR LAW RELIEF, NORTH WALES.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  DE-RATING, BRADFORD.
  DE-RATING, BRADFORD.
  VALUATION LISTS.
  VALUATION LISTS.
  PENSION PAYMENTS, WIDNES POST OFFICES.
  PENSION PAYMENTS, WIDNES POST OFFICES.
SCOTLAND.
  PROPOSED RASPBERRY MARKETING SCHEME.
  PROPOSED RASPBERRY MARKETING SCHEME.
  BANKRUPT FARMERS.
  BANKRUPT FARMERS.
  MARR TRUST.
  MARR TRUST.
  INDIA (CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES).
  INDIA (CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES).
  FORESTRY COMMISSION (TIMBER SALES).
  FORESTRY COMMISSION (TIMBER SALES).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BUCKINGHAM AND OXFORD) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (TAUNTON AND DISTRICT JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LEEK) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (RUGBY JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.

ADELPHI ESTATES BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, the Adelphi Estates Bill is down for Second Reading, but I would ask that it should not be moved now. I understand discussion may arise upon it and I would therefore like, with your Lordships' permission, that it should be postponed.

BOOTLE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
DOVER HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
LONDON OVERGROUND WIRES, &c. BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
RUGBY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
SALFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
WIMBLEDON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
WORKSOP CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, perhaps it would be for the convenience of your Lordships if the Leader of the House will tell us whether there will be any business on Thursday, and also if he can say when the London Passenger Transport Bill will be taken.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, so far as I know there is no business down for Thursday and I was therefore proposing to suggest that your Lordships might adjourn on Wednesday till Tuesday of next week. With regard to the London Passenger Transport Bill, I understand that is likely to leave another place tonight, and if it does so it would receive its First Reading in your Lordships' House to-morrow. It is a Bill which I think will take a little time to digest and I was therefore proposing not to ask your Lordships to take the Second Reading until 1st March. That will give a fortnight's interval, which I hope will be sufficient for any who take an interest in the Bill to become acquainted with its contents.

ASSURANCE COMPANIES (WINDING UP) BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SANKEY): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the winding up of insolvent assurance companies and

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for purposes connected with the matter aforesaid; and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

PROTECTION OF BIRDS BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, before I ask your close attention to the terms of this measure it would, I think, be well to state in general language what the law is at the present moment with regard to wild birds. The governing Act is an Act passed in 1880, 53 years ago, and it provided that certain named birds set out in the Schedule should be protected between March 1 and August 1 in any year, and that anybody who exposed or offered for sale, or used any net, to take any bird between those dates should upon conviction suffer the penalties stated in the Act. It also enabled an extension to be made of the time during which birds might be protected, on a representation made by the justices assembled in Quarter Sessions.
The Act appears to have had as many leaks as an old tin kettle, for it has been amended no fewer than seven or eight times since it was passed. One amendment permitted the inclusion by the Secretary of State of a bird that was not originally mentioned in the Schedule. Another enabled the Secretary of State, for special reasons, to extend the period during which birds were protected. Then came Acts to prevent people from affixing traps, gins and snares for taking birds. In 1908 there was an Act that provided that any attempt to take a wild bird by means of a hook should be the subject of punishment; while in 1925 the capture of a bird by decoy or bird lime was prevented. At the same time there was a provision that any person who kept or confined a bird in any cage or other receptacle which was not of sufficient dimensions in height, breadth, etc., to enable the bird to stretch its wings, should be guilty of an offence; but it was provided specially that that should have no application while a bird
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was being shown for the purpose of public exhibition or competition, though the bird was not for that purpose to be shut up for more than 72 hours.
Having heard this summary of the provisions of these Acts of Parliament, it must be plain to your Lordships that during the whole period of the year that is not covered, from August to March, there is almost unlimited opportunity, in areas that have not been protected by orders made by the Secretary of State, to capture wild birds practically to any extent. That this opportunity has been used and is being used to-day to a degree that I think people do not fully realise, can be seen by anyone who goes to a place in London that is known as Club Row. I have not been there myself, but I do not think that any one of your Lordships would dispute that the evidence of a man like the editor of the Field would be very valuable, to tell you what it is that goes on there. I know of no paper more honest, more manly and straightforward than the Field, and I believe that every one of your Lordships will agree with that verdict. You do not go to the Field to find people being needlessly sentimental over suffering of wild creatures. Cruelty they do hate, but they have never interfered with sport.
This is what he saw. He found a barrow with wooden cages containing linnets, goldfinches, and a variety of other birds, and as buying was brisk he described exactly what took place. The woman in charge of the birds took linnet after linnet from a tiny cage. She held it up by its tail and legs, dipped its beak into a little glass of dirty water, poked it bead first into a cardboard box, closed the box and pocketed a shilling. She took and dipped a goldfinch and sold that. The writer goes on:
"Then I caught sight of a song thrush, in a wire cage, crouching against the bars.-Others watched it besides myself. 'New to it; don't know where he are, in that cage,' I heard behind me."
He asked how much it was and was told 6s. He bought it and the thrush with open beak was placed in a cardboard box. He then bought some linnets and went away with them.
As soon as he got out of London he opened the box and the linnets flew away. The thrush could not move. After a little it fluttered along the ground to creep into a corner of dead bracken packed over a

659
myrtle bush. He put water near the bird and left it in the sun and wind. In two hours' time it fluttered out and sat up, so he knew that its leg was not, as he feared, dislocated. Ten minutes later it found its wings. The article continued:
"Wild birds are sold in this way. … Can we not alter the law? … Cannot the British Government, even in these hard days, spare an hour to save these wild singing birds from paper bags?"
Now, my Lords, I want to show you the extent to which this trade is carried on. Bird competitions are established all over England and are conducted in almost every place you can think of, from the Crystal Palace to a public-house, and men are encouraged to take and keep these wild birds in the hope of getting some of the very valuable prizes that are provided at these shows for anybody who has managed to induce some wretched little creature to prolong its life in captivity, because of the birds taken it is estimated that not more than 10 per cent. live.
They die probably of great wretchedness, through being confined, but these shows explain that it is a good thing to take these wild birds and rear them. In one of the opening sentences in their catalogues they ask: "Does it pay?" Yes, I have no doubt it pays very well. Here are some of the lists of birds in the recent exhibition given at the Crystal Palace. I take one class alone:
"Hedge, house and tree sparrows; long-tailed, great, coal, marsh, blue and crested tits; bearded reedling; common, golden-crested and fire-crested wrens; pied and spotted fly-catchers; tree-creeper, wry-neck and nuthatch."
That is one class, and the first prize for a tree-creeper is £50. All down this catalogue you will find prizes that I estimate amounted to several thousands of pounds for people who could produce these birds at this exhibition. The next list contains names familiar to many of your Lordships—the nightingale, the blackcap, the willow, wood and garden warblers, the chiffchaff, the whitethroat and lesser whitethroat, the whinchat, stonechat, redstart and black redstart. I could go on with any number—practically every bird you know; all the wagtails, the wood and the shore-larks, the meadow- and tree-pipits, the dipper. The idea of there being a class for a water ouzel is certainly a startling thing. And
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for all of them there are these large prices.
Let me tell you, my Lords, what the editor of the Field, who went to see this, thought about it. This is what he says:
"One of the tree-creepers ran unceasingly from one side of his cage to the other, upside down along the roof; the ceiling cloth was worn to tatters. Another unceasingly crept backwards and forwards over the back of its cage. The nuthatch never stopped jumping from one side of its cage to the other. The wren went ceaselessly from a perch into a hole in a box, out of the hole on to the floor, up from the floor to the perch."
Then he makes a comment, which I think is not unfair: "How many people in England realise what it is that is going on?" It is not merely birds such as those that I mentioned. Among other birds that I have seen a note of were the kingfisher and the swallow—the kingfisher, with the flight of an arrow and a flame of blue, shut for ever in a cage, where it will never again be able to show the miracle and wonder of its wings; and the swallow—a bird which under the impulse of some power greater than any that we can measure, is driven every autumn across the ocean and across the desert to seek the sun; fancy that bird shut up in a cage and exhibited as a curiosity at a show !
Surely we do owe something to these creatures. Those of us who take pleasure in enjoying the sight of them must feel that we owe them something, and that something, I suggest, will find expression in an attempt to redeem them from the condition in which they are placed. It is not only that. Take the lark. They not only imprison the lark, shut up within a narrow cage the wings that were built for the sky, but you will find a full account of the best way to treat a lark in order to make it sing. I cannot possibly guarantee the accuracy of statements that are made in periodicals or papers, but I can give you the paper and the date. On April 21, 1928, in the Surrey Comet, a paper that I have always known as a thoroughly reputable paper, there is this statement:
"Recent prosecutions in the police court at Kingston have focussed attention on particularly abhorrent forms of cruelty practiced by bird catchers. Statements were made of a bird having been deliberately blinded by the use of a red-hot needle, the birds being absolutely smothered with that vile glue-like composition known as bird

661
lime. There is another form of blinding which, although perhaps less deliberate, is hardly less cruel. This other process is a slow one, and it may be that many months pass during which the victim slowly loses its sight. To prepare for the competitions, the birds are kept in tiny cages covered with a black cloth, or in a lightless room or cupboard for weeks or months, only catching a glance of light at times for their food."
And that that is true is made perfectly plain by a book that is quoted by the editor of the Field. It is called "How to make a skylark sing." He describes how for many of these competitions you have to shut the bird up in absolute darkness up to a period of four days, and I. imagine that if that does not succeed you can try more. You feed it on meal-worms soaked in old whisky, and then, at the end of four days, you have to bring this bird forward and hope that the excitement of the light will make it sing. And this is the lark, a bird that at the very first flush of the morning rises to seek the sun; this is what you do to the thing that I regard as the only true optimist that has been left in this machine and trouble-ridden world.
I want to have the whole of this ended, and with your Lordships' help, I believe it possible. The Bill applies only to the English birds, and for this reason. Canaries have been bred so long in captivity that it may be expected that they will have forgotten the liberty of the air, just as man, in the long course of his evolutionary development, has forgotten the freedom of the forests. They no longer know what it is to want to fly. They are happy in their cages. They will sing, they can be delightful companions, and there is an excuse for anybody who says: "What I want to do is to keep a bird"; there is no reason why he should not keep a canary, and my Bill does not propose to affect that right. What the Bill does is to provide that any person who takes alive aid keeps in a cage any of the scheduled birds, or exhibits alive in a cage at a competition any bird, or sells or offers for sale or has in his possession any bird mentioned in the Schedule, with the proper provisions enabling birds already existing to be excluded, shall be guilty of an offence against the Act, for which the punishment is merely a matter of £2.
It is not merely the question of the punishment. If we can only get this Bill
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through I feel quite certain that you will find that public opinion will gather behind the law, just exactly as the gulls gather behind the plough. Your Lordships in 1928 passed a Bill after three years' attack upon the stubborn apathy of the Government, and I do not believe it would have got through then but for the aid given to it by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury. But that Bill became law, and I feel quite satisfied that any one of your Lordships must have felt some sense of satisfaction on seeing the increasing number of the flocks of those birds whenever your good fortune has taken you to the spots where the winds sweep and the plover cry. I want you to extend your treatment to these other and smaller birds; and, just as you saved the plover from something that was threatening its extinction, so I ask you now to redeem these birds from a cruel and shameful captivity. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Buckmaster.)
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I am sure the noble and learned Lord will have the sympathy of all your Lordships in the subject which he has brought forward this afternoon. But I have to say, on behalf of the Government, that the proposals in this Bill are very drastic and far-reaching, and it is quite certain, I should say, that considerable opposition to them may be expected from persons interested or those who would be adversely affected. I need not go into the provisions of the Bill or the different methods which have been adopted in the last ten or fifteen years for the protection of birds. This Bill is intended to go further. The effect of the Bill is to stamp out within six months the trade in British cage birds. Perhaps this is what is intended, but it would apparently be an offence to keep or sell birds taken abroad and imported. I see that finches and larks are mentioned in the Schedule and the scheduling of quails would also, I understand, appear to make the importation of live foreign quails illegal. The selling or keeping of any scheduled bird as a pet or for exhibition would be illegal, the trade of bird shops which cater for keepers and exhibitors would be taken away, and the very considerable trade in bird seed and other food would be very seriously affected.

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Apart from that, there is the question of enforcing this measure. The provisions of the Bill would be very difficult to enforce and no machinery is set up in the Bill for that purpose. The enforcement of the provisions as to taking, exhibiting and selling would require wide powers of entry and inspection, and to enforce the prohibition of keeping birds in cages would involve entry and inspection and possibly search of any private house where there was reason to believe that a scheduled bird was kept in captivity. The four main points in this Bill were considered by a Departmental Committee in 1919 and in no case did they consider such drastic measures as are now proposed necessary for the protection of birds from cruelty. That Committee, after full inquiry, came to the conclusion that it would be sufficient to safeguard against cruelty if bird catchers and bird shop-keepers were required to take out a licence.
As regards the exhibition of birds the Report shows that the Committee saw no reason for any interference in the matter on the part of the Government. I can give your Lordships one or two extracts from that Report. They deal in one paragraph with the question of bird catchers. These bird catchers, as your Lordships know, are hired by farmers to catch birds which are damaging their crops. The Committee says:
"In the case of these professional bird catchers we were told, and we can readily believe it, that the trade was not attended by cruelty, and that in their own interests the men gave proper care and attention to their birds."
There are, however, bird catchers who are amateurs, and therefore less expert, and in their case it has been found that a certain amount of cruelty has been inflicted. But the police and the inspectors of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals inspect the braced and decoy birds used by bird catchers on common or waste land, and there have been a considerable number of prosecutions. The noble Lord, Lord Buckmaster, referred to a case reported in the Surrey Comet. That was a prosecution. I think that would show that there is a certain amount of supervision at the present moment.
As regards bird shop keepers, the Committee went on to say:
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"We recommend that there should be regular and careful inspection of shops and places where birds are kept with a view to the prevention of the keeping of birds under bad conditions. In order that the police may have adequate powers to deal with this question we recommend also that bird dealers should be required to take out a licence in the same way as bird catchers."
As to shows, the Committee received a number of allegations with regard to the exhibition of British birds at shows. The Report says:
"It is in fact the practice to provide classes for British birds at many cage-birds shows, while British birds are, we understand, often shown also in non-British classes. The number of such exhibits is, however, not large, and it is in the interests of exhibitors to take the greatest care of their birds in order that they may be shown in good condition. We see no reason for any interference in the matter on the part of the Government provided the birds shown have been legally taken.
The trade in wild birds is very large. We were told that an average week's catch by one man would be six dozen, while catches of eighteen dozen a week and five to seven dozen a day by professionals were mentioned. The action of the Police and the Sunday Protection Orders have largely put a stop to the operations of the amateur bird catcher, but we think it would be well if all bird catchers were required to take out a licence costing, say, 5s. a year."
Since 1919, of course, many steps have been taken still further to protect birds from cruelty.
As regards the attitude of the Government, whilst sympathising with the desire to protect wild birds from cruelty the Government is doubtful whether public opinion is prepared to go as far as is proposed in the direction of entirely prohibiting birds being kept in captivity. Complete prohibition would affect the livelihood of some people and the innocent recreation of others. On the other hand, there appears to be room for inquiry in which the parties interested would be heard. Such an inquiry may produce less drastic and equally effective proposals which will be more capable of effective enforcement. Although the Government therefore cannot commit themselves to the principles embodied in this Bill and cannot promise facilities for the further stages of the Bill, they think that if your Lordships wish to give a Second Reading to this Bill this afternoon, the best way of having that inquiry carried out would be to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, who would be able

665
to undertake any further inquiry that seemed to be necessary.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I rise chiefly to ask a question about the drafting of this Bill. I understand the noble and learned Lord opposite to say that birds which are now in captivity are safeguarded, so to speak, under the proposal. Is that so?
LORD BUCKMASTER: I think so.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I cannot find it in the Bill. But if that is the noble and learned Lord's intention, I have no doubt, if it is not implicit in the Bill, he will make it clear during the subsequent stages. I cannot quite see where it appears in the Bill.
LORD BUCKMASTER: I think I can point out where it arises.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My noble friend Lord Lucan said it applied to foreign birds. He mentioned larks and finches, I think, and also quail. That is not the case. This Bill only applies to British birds. The actual words used by Lord Buckmaster are "English birds," and the effect of this proposal would be to transfer the trade in caged birds from British birds to foreign and to Irish birds. I wonder what the result of that will be in attaining the ideals to which Lord Buckmaster directed our attention. The trade in foreign birds will replace the trade in British or English birds. We shall have thrushes, blackbirds and finches and so on brought in from Ireland, or from the Continent. The risk involved would be much greater probably in the long run, and the mortality would be far greater too. I would have preferred that the matter should have been approached in a much more simple and more direct manner.
I do not think the Schedule is adequate. You may not keep a hoopoe in a cage, or a golden oriole, or a great grey shrike, but you may keep a ring dove or a kestrel in captivity. There is no group of wild birds which appear to me to suffer more from captivity than the accipitres. We are going to get into the difficulty mentioned by Lord Lucan very quickly if we say that a certain group of birds may not be taken and kept in England, but may be imported from abroad—the same identical birds, but non-British, which birds, of course, will
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be constantly substituted for the English birds which are in captivity. In order to determine that point you must have all sorts of difficulties, and often very vexatious inspection. There is one inspection, by the way, in subsection (3) of Clause 1, which, I think, is not necessary; that is, that the Zoo should have to be instructed how to look after its birds by the Home Secretary. I really do not think that ought to be pressed.
My other point is this. I do not think it is necessary that the Secretary of State for the Home Department should be entitled to add to the Schedule any birds that he thinks fit. That power has been granted in one or two other Bills, but only in a very limited sense, sometimes merely to extend the periods of protection, and once to add a bird that had been omitted by mistake, but that was done by Parliament. I think there is one other case where it is done, but here the Secretary of State is entitled to include any other bird. I can well imagine a Secretary of State saying: "We will forbid pheasant farms," or, "We will not allow wild fowl pens." Those points ought to be considered; but what is more serious is that this will transfer this trade to foreign birds of identical species, and in doing so will very likely bring about a larger total amount of cruelty than is the case to-day.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, may I say one word in the hope that those of your Lordships who are supporting this Bill may accept the suggestion which has been made by my noble friend Lord Lucan, with regard to a Select Committee? No one hopes that this Bill will receive a Second Reading more strongly than I do, and no one feels more strongly than I do the weight of the arguments which have been used by my noble friend Lord Buckmaster in pressing upon your Lordships that something should be done to prevent this trade, and prevent the cruel usage of these birds; but I, like my noble friend opposite, Lord Crawford, feel that this Bill does require a good deal of consideration before it is accepted as the law. I think there will be great administrative difficulties.
The main question arises in Clause 1—that is to say, the Bill prohibits the taking alive and keeping in a, cage or other receptacle any bird to which the Bill applies after its passing as an Act. That is very important. That means that

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any powers which there are now will not be affected, but the difficulty which I perceive is this—how are you going to prove that the bird which is kept in captivity is actually a bird which has been taken in this country? You do not propose in the Bill to prohibit the keeping of British wild birds which have been bred and reared in captivity, and I do not think there would be any interference by the Customs with the importation of birds from abroad. You do not intend to prevent the importation of wild birds from abroad which are of the same species as British birds. The noble Earl, Lord Lucan, has suggested that there is no machinery for control in the Bill, and probably that would have to be added to make it effective.
You might administer it in two ways. You might presume that all birds of British species have been taken alive, and you might put upon the owner the necessity of proving that his birds had been imported from abroad, or that they had been reared in captivity. I think this raises very great difficulties indeed, because it might be impossible to prove that the bird had been imported, or that it had been reared in captivity. You might put the onus of proving it upon the police, and say to the police: "You cannot prosecute unless you can prove that the bird has been taken in this country." This dilemma would do a lot to make the measure very difficult to enforce, and it would lose the value which my noble friend Lord Buckmaster seeks to give it for the protection of birds and the prevention of cruelty. The great difficulty that I see in the Bill is in making it effective, and that is one of the reasons why I think it would be desirable that it should be submitted, as my noble friend Lord Lucan suggested, to a Select Committee. I believe the Select Committee could make it a workable Bill which could be enforced, and would be able to bring about the end which my noble friend Lord Buckmaster advocates and which I am certain every member of your Lordships' House desires to see carried out.
There is another paint, the question of the Schedule. I think the Schedule requires very considerable revision. It is rather difficult, or probably will be difficult, to interpret, but I do not see that there will be any great difficulty in specifying definitely the particular birds to which it refers. My noble and learned
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friend Lord Buckmaster referred to canaries. I imagine they would not come within the scope of the Bill as the title only deals with British birds, but still as a matter of fact a canary is a finch and the Schedule contains "Finches (all species)." That is another point which might be considered by a Select Committee. Then the Zoological Society is not the only responsible body which keeps a collection of birds. I believe the London County Council have birds in Battersea Park. There are other bodies besides the Zoological Society who are able to keep, and do keep, birds under the same conditions as they are kept by the Zoological Society. I think that the provision that the Secretary of State should lay down conditions is necessary because only the Secretary of State could make by-laws which would have to govern any society which sought permission to start an aviary or a collection of birds.
If this Bill were to go before a Select Committee evidence might be taken from local authorities who have to administer the Acts, and who would be able to say how successful they have been, and witnesses from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals could be examined as well as all those who are anxious to keep birds under proper conditions and prevent cruelty. It has been said very often in your Lordships' House that reference of a Bill to a Select Committee is tantamount to sentencing it to death, but I do not think that is quite correct. I have served on two Select Committees—one dealing with a Bill for Criminal Law amendment and the other a Bill relating to the guardianship of infants—and within a very short time, and I think consequent upon the fact that they were referred to a Select Committee, those Bills became Acts of Parliament. I do not see why examination by a Select Committee should take long. I should think it could be done by Easter or by Whitsuntide at the latest, and if the result was a Bill so drafted that the Government could give it support I do not see why it should not go through Parliament this Session. Therefore I rather hope that the noble and learned Lord will consider favourably the idea put forward by my noble friend the Earl of Lucan.
EARL BUXTON: My Lords, having listened to the speech of the noble Earl,

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the representative of the Government, I gather that acceptance of the suggestion that it should be referred to a Select Committee would so far as he is concerned remove objections to the Second Reading of the Bill. I speak as one who has been actively engaged in putting forward this Bill, and so far as I am concerned, though I am not authorised to speak on behalf of anyone else, I would say that our object has been to get a Bill which will not only carry out the principle involved but which will be thoroughly watertight and therefore effective. The noble Earl who represents the Government raised objections on the ground of the difficulty of administration. That difficulty would not be increased but, indeed, diminished by this Bill. At present there are all sorts of different Schedules. There is the original Schedule and there are Schedules for different counties, and they give protection for certain periods, sometimes for a year and sometimes only for a season. So far as I can see, this Bill would enormously simplify administration.
The point is that we want an effective Bill. Those of us who have studied the question have come to the conclusion that there is at the present moment in two ways an enormous amount of cruelty involved in caging wild birds. In the first place, as my noble friend has pointed out, the mere fact of keeping these wild birds in cages necessarily involves a great deal of suffering and cruelty and mortality. That is one way in which there is cruelty, but there is also suffering and injury and mortality caused by the netting, the taking and selling of these birds under the conditions indicated by my noble friend. That does not apply to classes of foreign birds, like canaries and budgerigars, which are bred in captivity or at any rate taken out of the nest as young. They, never having really felt freedom, do not suffer in the same way as wild birds. So far as wild birds are concerned they cannot be taken from the nest and tamed while they are young because under the original Schedule and under the Schedules of various county councils no birds such as larks, bullfinches and so on can be taken between March 1 and August 1 or sometimes August 15. Therefore there is no possibility of their being tamed by being taken into captivity at an early age.
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The cruelty, therefore, is far greater when we are dealing with birds which are neither bred in captivity nor taken as young but are captured when adult birds. All this makes those who have studied the matter feel that some drastic steps should be taken to prevent the increasing cruelty which exists. I for one would welcome the proposal of the noble Earl who represents the Government to send the Bill to a Select Committee. I understand, as the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, endeavoured to show, that there are various difficulties as regards the question of foreign birds and the administration of the Schedules. Therefore, if the House assented to the Second Reading and thereby accepted the general principle that some drastic steps ought to be taken to prevent cruelty, I myself would be prepared to agree to the Bill going before a Select Committee where the whole matter could be thrashed out and, I hope, a unanimous conclusion reached.
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I should like to deal with one point in the speech of my noble friend the Earl of Crawford. He seems to think that a large number of birds of an English type might be brought over from the Continent and Ireland. I understand that at the present moment it is impossible to import from Ireland many of the birds named in the Schedule into this country. Therefore the danger he apprehends would not occur. It seems to me that it would be quite simple to introduce an Amendment to arrange for the prohibition of the birds named in the Schedule being brought into this country.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, as often happens in discussions on Bills in your Lordships' House some of the apprehended difficulties vanish on examination and it may be that others emerge. I think the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, was unduly apprehensive in thinking that this Bill could affect anything except a bird taken after the passing of the Act, for those are the words of the first subsection.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: If the noble and learned Lord says so.
LORD BUCKMASTER: I only say so because the first subsection speaks of any person who
"takes alive and keeps in a cage or other receptacle any bird to which this Act

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applies, or keeps in a cage or other receptacle any bird to which this Act applies taken after the passage of this Act."
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: That does not satisfy me.
LORD BUCKMASTER: I dare say not, but it seems to satisfy me.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Of course I have not said what I have without consultation. If what the noble and learned Lord says is so they seem very redundant words in the subsection.
LORD BUCKMASTER: The mere fact that we might make it shorter does not prove that it is wrong. It really is no use discussing details of this kind nor considering again the character of the Schedule which was taken upon an examination of the classes of birds exhibited at these shows. I think there might be some arrangement made in regard to zoological societies. Nobody will accuse me of an undue admiration of the skill of Government Departments, but even I never suggested that a head of a Government Department could control or destroy or prohibit a pheasant farm. If I had it would have been said that it was an undignified attack on a Government Department. As for the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, I must say I feel there is a good deal of point in what was urged about the Select Committee. A great number of administrative difficulties must already exist with regard to the present law and I think that if you got a Select Committee prepared to join this Bill to existing Acts of Parliament it might be possible to make a comprehensive working measure. Whether the Department represented by the noble Earl would pay the least attention to it is another matter, but at least we might try, and therefore I am prepared to accept the proposal of the noble Earl and let them work this out if they can.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Moved, That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.—(The Earl of Lucan.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Bill referred to a Select Committee accordingly.

FOREIGN JUDGMENTS (RECIPROCAL ENFORCEMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. It is, I regret to say, a very technical Bill, but I am glad to think that it is entirely uncontroversial. As the passing of the Bill will affect the commercial communities of several important European countries I think it necessary to give your Lordships rather full details. The Bill owes its origin to a substantial grievance suffered by litigants in this country, mainly business men, when they recover judgment against a defendant whose assets are in a foreign country, and that grievance is this: they find it very difficult to enforce their judgment in the country where the assets are. This arises not from any lack of comity in the foreign country, but from differences between their law and ours as to the precise conditions under which the judgment of the Courts of one country may be enforced in the Courts of another.
In some countries a foreign judgment is enforced quite readily if it comes from the Court of a country which itself grants similar facilities; in other words, if there is reciprocity. But when we are asked here whether we in England grant similar facilities, though our answer could be "Substantially, yes," yet we are obliged to answer "Technically, no." In the first place our law requires a fresh action to be commenced on the foreign judgment, while what the other country expects is that their judgment should simply be registered here and then enforced like one of our judgments. Secondly, the rules of our law which deprive the defendant of the right to go into the merits of the case all over again are not to be found 'in any Statute. They are rules of the Common Law and it has proved to be difficult to satisfy foreign Courts that these rules really exist and are rigidly enforced over here. In practice hundreds of foreign judgments are enforced in England every year by a summary procedure without a fresh trial of the merits of the case, but very few of our judgments are enforced by foreign Courts and then often after trying the case all over again, the Court not being satisfied on the point of reciprocity.
I must now indicate very briefly the history of this matter. In April, 1918, a Committee, which was presided over by Lord Sumner, recommended that provision should be made by Statute for the

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reciprocal enforcement of judgments pronounced by Courts in different parts of the British Empire. The result was that effect was given to the proposals of the Committee by the enactment of Part II of the Administration of Justice Act, 1920, which gave this reciprocity between England and our Colonies. There has now been an experience of the working of these reciprocal arrangements over a period of more than ten years—it is believed with universal satisfaction. But between 1920 and 1929 a continuous stream of communications was received at the Foreign Office from solicitors and merchants in the United Kingdom complaining of the unfairness of the present position under which their foreign creditors were able to enforce against them in the English Courts judgments given against them in foreign Courts while they were unable to enforce English judgments obtained against their foreign debtors in foreign countries.
In March, 1929, a letter was written from the Foreign Office to Lord Hailsham, then Lord Chancellor, in which Sir Austen Chamberlain, after contrasting the great difference between the treatment of foreign judgments in the United Kingdom and of British judgments in foreign countries, expressed the view that the existing position was unsatisfactory and invited his Lordship's attention to the communications received at the Foreign Office. As the result of that Lord Hailsham appointed a small Committee to go into the matter and the Committee made a Report dated June, 1929, in which they recommended a system of reciprocity, and endorsed a suggestion made in the letter from the Foreign Office to the Lord Chancellor, that before any Bill was drafted or presented to Parliament to enable conventions to be concluded informal negotiations should take place with one or two foreign countries, in order to ascertain whether it would be possible to proceed along the lines suggested, and consequently, whether legislation of the kind suggested would enable the desired results to be obtained.
I am happy to inform your Lordships that these informal negotiations took place with France, Belgium and Germany, and that those countries would welcome reciprocal arrangements such as those to which I have been referring. After the matter had been thus investi-
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gated it became clear that the remedy in this case lies in making a series of conventions with foreign countries, but the question what provisions to include in them and what procedure we should adopt here to give effect to them was an exceedingly complex one. I accordingly, in November, 1931, appointed a Committee to consider these questions, under the Chairmanship of Lord Justice Greer. The Greer Committee reported on December 12 last and the Report has been laid before Parliament. I should like to take this public opportunity of thanking the Lord Justice and the Committee for the time and thought which they have given to the matter.
The Committee was a highly expert one, as befits such a technical matter, and it has been able to make its recommendations in an exceedingly practical form. It has drafted not only a Bill but also a series of conventions which, in the opinion of the Committee, might suitably be made with France, Belgium and Germany. It has also drafted a series of Orders-in-Council which, if the conventions are made, would make them enforceable in this country; and lastly, they have drafted a set of Rules of Court which would complete the machinery for enabling the judgments to be enforced. With this material before us we may be confident that the scheme of the Committee is an eminently workable one. The Bill before your Lordships is word for word the Bill which the Committee recommended. It involves very little alteration in the substance of our law—that is to say, the conditions under which we propose to enforce foreign judgments under the Bill are substantially the same as under the Common Law. The change in procedure consists merely in adopting the system of registration, which has already been in force for more than ten years as regards judgments given in the Dominions. Litigants, merchants in this country, have much to gain and nothing to lose by the Bill. Under the new system litigants in the convention countries will be as fairly treated in the future as they have always been in the past, when their judgments come to be enforced in this country.
For a, few moments only lei me direct your Lordships' attention to the various clauses in the Bill. Clause 1 gives power to extend Part I of the Act to foreign countries

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giving reciprocal treatment. Clause 2 deals with the application for, and effect of, registration of foreign judgments. Clause 3 provides the Rules of Court necessary for the purpose of carrying out this. Clause 4 is a saving clause, and deals with cases in which registered judgments must or may be set aside. Clause 5 gives a power to the registering Court, on application, to set aside registration. Clause 6 provides that foreign judgments which can be registered are not to be enforceable otherwise. Clause 7 gives power to apply Part I to British Dominions, Protectorates and mandated territories. Clause 9 gives power to make foreign judgments unenforceable in the United Kingdom if there is no reciprocity. Clause 12 provides for the application of the Act to Scotland and Clause 13 for its application to Northern Ireland. This Bill, my Lords, will be of very great assistance to the commercial community. I think we have got it in absolutely good order, and I beg to move that it be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The he Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ROAD TRAFFIC (SPEEDOMETER) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, this Bill, the Second Reading of which I desire to move this afternoon, deals with a matter of some importance. It bears upon two simple propositions, with both of which I think your Lordships will possibly agree. The first is that we have too many road accidents to-day, and the second that if we have a law existent in. this country it ought to be enforced. I do not think that I need dilate upon the state of our roads at the present time. Everyone agrees that the question of the safety of our roads to-day is not a satisfactory one. I know an answer may be made that the vehicles with which this Bill deals, the heavy vehicles, omnibuses and chars-a-bancs, may not be responsible for all the accidents or even a great number of the accidents on the roads. That is an argument which I do not think is really sound. It may be backed up by
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statistics, but they do not mean much to me. A number of figures merely shows what those figures are intended to show. They do not necessarily show what is the real state of affairs.
If I am riding with a friend on horseback down a road, and suddenly meet with a herd of wild elephants coming along, in consequence of which my friend and I collide and we are thrown from our horses and injured, it does not seem to me that the fact that no particular elephant trod upon me is going to exonerate the herd of elephants from being the cause of the accident. It is not always the actual colliding vehicle that is responsible for the accident, and one knows perfectly well to-day that if one is driving along a road and you meet one of those heavy vehicles driven at an excessive speed that vehicle is bound to hold the crown of the road. It cannot get on to its proper side because of its speed and weight and the camber of the road. It takes the crown of the road and leaves other motorists very little room. That is not a very satisfactory condition of affairs and in this Bill I am asking that these vehicles should do nothing other than what they are required to do by law. I am asking that it should be seen that they do keep the law which is at present on the Statute Book.
One is in this difficulty in making a recommendation such as I am making. It is quite clear that no Act of Parliament and no Bill can be presented which in any way is asking to give a monopoly to any one particular instrument. Of course, on the other hand, it would be equally idle to ask you to consider fitting some sort of instrument without having taken the trouble to find out whether such an instrument exists. Therefore I have taken the trouble to find out that an instrument of the kind suggested does exist. It is not, I think, the province of anybody who is proposing a Bill of this kind to suggest which instrument is best. It is merely one's duty to find out that such an instrument does exist. Well, I have found one that does and it has satisfied me of one or two things. First of all, it will in fact register the speed at which any vehicle is going at any time with sufficient accuracy for the purposes of this kind of legislation. I am told, and from what I have been shown I should be inclined to accept the statement, that the instrument I have in mind would

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give an accuracy of within about 1 per cent. I do not think it right to mention the name of this instrument because that would be giving an advertisement to a particular instrument, and I do not desire to do that. But it is said to give an accuracy of within 1 per cent.; I am prepared to double or treble that and to say that it will only give accuracy within 3 per cent. Even that is close enough to give the knowledge that we want in order to consider what proceedings, if any, should be taken if the law is being broken.
This is not a question of something new. Instruments of this kind are used at the present time on the railways both of Canada and of France. I agree that the problem of the speed of an engine on a railway track is not quite the same as that of the speed of a car on a road. But, nevertheless, these instruments have been used, and it has been thought proper in those two countries to use them. In this country one railway at least uses what is known as a dynamometer car, that is to say, a car with instruments, and among others this type of instrument, whenever they are considering a new type of engine and a new schedule for their express trains; and a, careful register of the speed at every moment of that run is made before they make their new schedule of time-tables. I only mention that to show that this is not new. Lately I found something else. In France there is no speed limit at all on the road, but I found that a great number of the omnibus companies and char-à-banc companies in France have themselves fitted instruments of this kind for their own purposes because they find that it is worth their while in order to check the runs of their cars and their drivers.
I can go further. I discussed this matter with a friend of mine who is a director of three of the biggest omnibus and char-à-banc companies in this country. He is also chairman of a committee of directors of practically every big company which sits once a fortnight to discuss the accidents on the road that have happened during that fortnight. His opinion is this. He wants these instruments on every one of his omnibuses. "But," he says, and I think with very great propriety, "I cannot do that on my lines and leave all my competitors to do what they like, and
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break the law as they like in order to become our rivals. There must be some regulation which would affect everybody. But I personally would welcome it, and a great many of the other directors agree with me." Therefore I do not think you are going to get any real opposition to a Bill of this kind from the people who are actually running these omnibuses. You have to remember that they have their own interests to think of. They reason like this: it does not pay to go on asking the public to use things that the public are beginning to realise are a danger. There is a second and a very obvious reason, and that is that as a matter of business these coaches have to be insured. If their speed is cut down to the legal speed the insurance companies will give them considerably better terms than they are giving them at the present time. Therefore I do not think you are going to get any real opposition.
What is it that I am asking for in this Bill? I am asking that a speedometer should be fitted to certain vehicles in order that there may be a permanent record of the speed at which these vehicles have been travelling. The Bill is a short one, and because it is short it took a long time to draft. It is always easy to draft a Bill if you do not mind its being long, but it takes time to draft a short Bill. I went back to an old-fashioned idea, which personally I prefer; that is to say, I put my definition clause first, instead of last, which is the present practice, in order that we may know what we are talking about before we talk about it. The first thing is the vehicle that we are dealing with. We are dealing only with vehicles that are subject to a maximum speed. Those come under the First Schedule of the Road Traffic Act, 1930. I think that that is not only reasonable but logical. When a vehicle has a maximum speed, if it exceeds that speed, that is an offence per se, and therefore we are entitled to know at what speed it has been going.
With other vehicles, such as private motor cars, it is not an offence per se to go at any speed, because there is no speed limit. But it may be that the private car will come into legal process because it has been driven to the danger of the public, or because it has even caused manslaughter. That may be perfectly true, but in such a case the actual speed is

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only one element in a body of evidence, and I think that it is unreasonable to include those vehicles, for this reason among others: I think if you did, you would make too much of the importance of speed when you are considering the body of evidence as to whether or not there has been an offence of driving to the danger of the public. In any case, all I am asking for at the present time is that this should apply to those vehicles which have a definite maximum speed, and which therefore have committed an offence if they have gone beyond that speed.
Next I have put the duty upon the owner of the vehicle. When this question was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buckmaster, last autumn, he pointed out that one of the things that ought to be considered is the fact that the owner, and not the unfortunate driver, should be made the responsible person. For that reason I have in this Bill put the responsibility of having the speedometer fitted and cared for upon the owner. That is found in Clause 2. I thought it was right, if this Act were going to be of any value at all, that the owners should keep these charts for a certain time. After consideration I suggested a month, arid that is what I have provided for in Clause 3. If that is thought too much or too little, it is very easy to alter it at another stage of the Bill. It seemed to me that a month was reasonable. Furthermore, if there are any legal proceedings started the chart must be kept until those legal proceedings are finished. Next, a police officer may stop any vehicle and look at the chart when the vehicle is being used on the road. Next, we come to the "chief officer of police." A "chief officer of police" is defined in the Road Traffic Act, 1930, as a responsible person, and as a rule it is the Chief Constable; it means someone who is a big, responsible person, not any police officer. He is entitled, if he desires, to ask that any charts that are being kept should be produced to him or to his officer. Then, of course, there is a penalty for refusal to comply.
The next clause is on the question of offences with regard to the speedometer. I have satisfied myself that the particular model which I have looked at is one in which the chart cannot be tampered with, short of actually fabricating an
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entirely false chart, which of course is forgery. I have satisfied myself that apart from that it cannot be faked, and for that reason I am suggesting to your Lordships that this does give a reasonable prospect of seeing that the law is properly kept. One difficulty in the Bill was pointed out to me by my noble friend Lord Howe. I dare say there are many but this one I acknowledge freely. It could be rectified easily on another stage of the Bill. I have not allowed for what would happen if the speedometer broke down. Under the Bill as drawn the driver could not drive on. Something has got to be put in to rectify that, and I shall suggest later, if your Lordships give me an opportunity, that if this does happen there should be an obligation to report the fact to the first policeman the driver may meet. That is merely a suggestion; I have not had time to consider it.
Another thing is obvious: you cannot expect people to fit these things in a day, nor can you expect manufacturers who are manufacturing for experimental work, that is for cars that are being used for experiment—you cannot expect them, manufacturing for a small market, suddenly to be able to put the requisite number of speedometers on the market. Therefore I have put in the Bill that "this Act shall come into operation on such day as the Minister may appoint." That will allow the Minister to consider, with the manufacturers and omnibus companies, when it would be reasonable to ask them that they should come into conformity and adopt this particular method of showing what they are doing on the road. These are shortly the reasons why I desire your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Halsbury.)
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, I should like to support the Second Reading of the measure proposed by the noble Earl as warmly as I can. He pointed out that the object of the Bill was to see that the law was enforced in order to increase safety and to decrease road accidents. If that was the only effect this Bill would have I should feel inclined to say there might be other suggestions which would be more effective than the speedometer to which my noble friend referred. One I had sent to me

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the other day was one which ran elf the gear box. When you got the maximum speed allowed a red light showed on the dash board and your petrol supply was cut down.
Another aspect of the case is that this Bill concerns the drivers of big, heavy commercial vehicles which go up north and come back every night. A short time ago I was talking to a friend of mine who sells these commercial vehicles and he was telling me of the appalling conditions which exist among the drivers. He also said that there were certain "doss" houses on the road. Shortly before Christmas I was near Doncaster where there is one of these "doss" houses. I scent in and discussed the position with two drivers there, and I was appalled by what they told me. They told me that they averaged only four hours sleep per night. They have to run up to schedule, and if they are not up to schedule they get the "sack." There are so many unemployed drivers that they have to do it. They are actually blackmailed into practical slavery.
They told me they got a very short time when they got back to London from Liverpool; they had only four hours' sleep and had hardly time to turn round and say "Goodbye" to their wives before they had to go again to the north. This Bill would leave it open to any police officer to inspect the chart and, as is the case to-day, in many of the schedules which these drivers have to keep they have to get up to the utmost limit of speed. To get to their destination on time they have to exceed the present speed Under this Bill any police officer could see if they had exceeded the limit, and this would call attention to the disgusting state of affairs that exists with regard to these drivers.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: My Lords, one aspect of this Bill has not been dwelt on by the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading, or the noble Lord who has just spoken, and that is the cost. I do not know whether the House realises the very large number of vehicles which will be affected by this Bill. According to Clause 1 all big goods vehicles and all omnibuses would be affected, as well as all private cars drawing a. trailer, that is to say caravans and motor-cycles which deliver goods. In all these categories there are no fewer than 440,000 vehicles.
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I am advised that you cannot buy a speedometer which would really work under £22 10s.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I may tell the noble Lord that I have taken the trouble to find out what the quoted price is and the quoted price is not more than £5.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I have also taken the trouble to find out. The quoted price the noble Lord speaks of is for one that shows whether the vehicle is going or is stopped.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: The noble Lord must not attribute to me something I did not say. I have investigated the model which tells you exactly the speed at which a vehicle is going at every moment that it is going, and if the noble Lord would like a little further information I will give it to him. It is that this model has been designed by the person who designed and put on the market the original taximeter.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I am not in the least moved from my opinion by the noble Earl's remark. I may be wrong and he may be wrong, but I am advised that a reliable speedometer cannot at present be purchased under £22 10s. Of course if you created a great demand for them you would probably get them cheaper; perhaps at £20 each. If you make a rough calculation of 440,000 vehicles at £20 each it means that it would cost about £9,000,000 to put this measure into operation. If you are going to achieve a great public reform, save lives, and generally diminish the wear and tear of the roads, which is one of the most important things, I admit that possibly you might face so vast an expenditure. I submit, however, that the way to proceed is not to have these speedometers, but to have more intensive action by the police in trapping these heavy vehicles. That is being done extensively in most counties, and in all the petty sessional districts in my own county, at every petty sessions, we have half-a-dozen or a dozen of these big vehicles up for going too fast. That is a very cheap way to make them keep within the law, and far better than undertaking the enormous expenditure which would be necessitated under this Bill.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I listened with great attention to the speech made

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by my noble friend in introducing this Bill, and it does seem to me that much further investigation is required. The noble Earl, in introducing the Bill, said one of the things we must be careful not to do is to give a monopoly to anyone. The noble Earl has mentioned one instrument which he says will do what he wants to do, record the speed of a vehicle on a chart at every stage during its journey. But he has only come across one such instrument, and if this Bill were to pass into law surely the effect of it would be to put a practical monopoly into the hands of the maker of a proprietary article. I submit that would not be a desirable thing to do. The noble Earl did not tell us whether this speedometer has been tried out, and if so, for how long? An instrument may work perfectly for a short time, say six months, but we are considering a Bill for all time, and are to ask motor owners to incur an expense, I believe the noble Earl suggested, of something like £4 10s.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I said under £5.
EARL HOWE: The noble Earl is going to ask every owner of a vehicle affected by this Bill to incur an expenditure of £4 10s. for an instrument which may, or may not, let him down. The noble Earl indicated that there is no provision for accidental breakdown in it, but he indicated that he would accept an Amendment at a later stage. I hope he will, because I am very much afraid there is no maker of any proprietary article of whom I have heard in this country who would be prepared in present circumstances to guarantee such an instrument for a longer period than six months or a year. There is one instrument, but experience has not been gained in regard to it.
The noble Earl said that this Bill was to apply to every vehicle which is subject to a speed limit under the Road Traffic Act. The noble Lord who has just spoken (Lord Mount Temple) has given your Lordships the number of vehicles which would be affected, but there are others. For instance, there are invalid carriages, there are locomotives and motor tractors with a speed of five miles an hour. Every agricultural tractor would be affected by this Bill. Every owner of an agricultural tractor would be expected to have one of these expensive accessories, although
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his vehicle seldom appears on the road. It seems to me that is not really what we want. I understand that what the noble Earl really wants is that this should apply to motor coaches. I am sure that is what he has really in mind. The law with regard to motor coaches is absurd. Is it really necessary that in order to bring this about you should pass a Bill which is going to place upon the owners of these vehicles an expenditure running into millions of pounds—not so many millions, I think perhaps, as the noble Lord just indicated, but at any rate well on the way to £2,000,000, even at £4 10s. per instrument. The noble Earl would put this expenditure upon the transport industry of the country in order to see that the law is observed by this kind of traffic.
That does not seem to me to be the right way of going about it. If you are to place this expenditure, for instance, on all the omnibuses in London, what effect is it likely to have on fares? At a later date, as we have heard from the noble and learned Leader of the House, we are going to have an opportunity of considering the London Passenger Transport Bill. I rather think the question of fares on the omnibuses will be one of the things we shall discuss, and I hope we shall do nothing which will have the effect of putting up the fares on the omnibuses. Take the case of second-hand vehicles. You are going to ask them to incur an expenditure which will form a very respectable proportion of the total value of the vehicle. The value of these instruments is put at £4 10s. each, and the value of many of the vehicles is only about £20. The vehicles affected by the Bill include light delivery vans, goods motor cycles, lorries of under 2½ tons, and so on. I think that we ought to be very cautious before we saddle the transport industry of this country with so great an expenditure.
The noble Earl says that he is content with 3 per cent. of accuracy in the speedometer. I believe there have been many cases in the Courts in which the reading of speedometers has been quoted, but I believe in most cases the Courts have required other evidence than that produced by a speedometer. They have not considered that the record of a speedometer was sufficiently accurate evidence to place before the Court. It

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must be corroborated in some other way. Therefore, I think even when you have saddled the motor transport industry with this expense, it is not certain that the speedometer will be considered to be conclusive evidence. You will still have to rely, I think, upon other methods in order to secure observance of the law. I strongly support what the noble Lord said just now about its being a matter for the police. I think it is entirely a matter for the police, and I should like to hear from the spokesman of the Government, or from some other quarter, whether this measure is really desired by the police and whether the police feel it would strengthen their hands in enforcing the law.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, in the Motor Traffic Act, 1930, there are, so far as I can see, two, and only two, provisions that have been inserted for the public interest. They are the two provisions that limit the speed of certain classes of cars. Every other part of the Bill is, in my judgment, designed to help and promote motor traffic. Now it is common knowledge that these two speed limits are disobeyed. They are not only disobeyed, but cases have come before the magistrates showing that drivers of some of these vehicles are employed on terms which compel disobedience, and the excuse they make is that they were detained, that they were blocked here and had to get through there, and that obedience to these rules was impossible. I think it is of the utmost consequence that there should be some recording instrument which shows whether or not they are obeying. Personally, I feel very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, for the trouble he has taken in this matter, and for introducing this Bill.
It really is no use—I say it with all respect—for the noble Lord, Lord Mount Temple, to assert that this instrument would cost £22. The noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, has carefully investigated the matter himself, and lie is quite satisfied that it would not cost more than It really does not make an impressive set of figures to take an imaginary and, according to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, a wholly inaccurate figure, and then multiply it in the way which has been done in this debate. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, said that even speedometers were not always accepted in the Courts.
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I am not quite clear as to the cases he referred to, but I should imagine that they are the class of case where the undisputed evidence of bystanders is that a car was going at 50 miles an hour, and the driver declares that his speedometer showed it was going at only 15 miles an hour. That is by no means an uncommon case. If in this case the Judges said: "We are not prepared to credit the speedometer" it was only a polite way of saying: "We are not prepared to credit the witness."
EARL HOWE: I hesitate to interrupt the noble and learned Lord, but may I say that the case I have in mind was one where police officers mounted on motor cycles have followed a motorist and declared that the speed was so and so, giving the figure on the speedometer? That has not been accepted as final and conclusive evidence.
LORD BUCKMASTER: That is only another instance of the extreme leniency of the Courts. It not infrequently happens that a Court does not like to convict where the excess was not very great. On the whole, however, these speedometers are to be relied upon. I think everybody knows that. The only question that remains is whether we can get a speedometer that will also record the pace at which vehicles have travelled. I do not propose to prolong this discussion, but I do most earnestly hope that this Bill, which I regard as a most valuable contribution to the problem, will be passed. I will only say in conclusion that if there is one thing that disturbs me more than another, it is that whenever you have the inevitable question raised on the one side of the menace to human life on the roads and the comfort of people living along the road, and on the other the finance of the motor industry, you are always told that you must not put any expense upon the motor industry, even though lack of that expense may cause peril to the lives of the people of the country.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, in the unfortunate absence of my noble friend the Earl of Plymouth on account of illness, I have been asked to state the views of His Majesty's Government regarding this Bill. The object of my noble friend who introduced this Bill and the object of all of us is to lessen the number

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of accidents in our streets and on our roads, and if I point out some objections to the Bill, as I am bound to do, it must not be taken that the Ministry of Transport or His Majesty's Government are any less anxious about this very serious toll of life and limb on the roads than the noble Earl or anyone else in this House.
His Majesty's Government do see certain objections to this measure. In connection with the first, which is that of expense, I would refer your Lordships to the debate in this House on December 1 last year, when my noble and learned friend Lord Buckmaster moved a Resolution which was accepted by the House that all motor vehicles subject to speed limits should be equipped with a trustworthy speedometer. In that debate, my noble friend the Earl of Halsbury stated that a very satisfactory recording speedometer could be produced at a cost of about £5. It is not clear whether this estimate covered the cost of fitting, etc. He has repeated that sum to-day. I am not going into the controversy between him and my noble friend below the gangway who said the cost would be £22 10s., but granted that it is only £5 there are, according to the figures given me, nearly half a million vehicles subject to a speed limit, so that even on my noble friend's estimate the fitting of recording speedometers would involve an expenditure of £2,500,000. In spite of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buck-master, has just said, the Government consider that this is a serious matter and would involve a heavy burden on industry in times such as the present.
The second objection which the Government see to this measure is that instruments of this nature are delicate and are liable to get out of order. In the rough usage to which a lorry is subject, cases of the instrument going out of order would be likely to be frequent, and under the provisions of the Bill the vehicle would be out of action until the instrument had been adjusted. In justice to my noble friend I think it should be said that he did refer to that and did recognise it as a possible flaw in the Bill. The third objection of the Government is that instruments of this kind are not always accurate and can be tampered with comparatively easily. The accuracy, for example, depends on such details as the degree of inflation of the tyres, and I am
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informed that it is reckoned that an ordinary speedometer in a private car is subject to a margin of error of between 5 and 10 per cent. The fourth objection is that a recording speedometer of the kind suggested by my noble friend has not yet been tried in what one may call workaday conditions. In this connection your Lordships may remember that in the debate last December my noble friend the Earl of Plymouth, replying for the Government, stated that by a regulation that came into force on January 1 this year all long distance motor-coaches have now to be fitted with speedometers. That is a requirement that the Government realise may well have to be extended. The Minister proposes to carry out some practical experiments with the more promising of the existing devices that have been brought to his notice and to look into the question of cost and the practicability of fitting such device to existing vehicles.
I think I should again emphasise, even though I may be repeating myself, that even if perfectly reliable instruments were available, the difficulties of enforcement of the provisions of a Bill of this nature are formidable, the expense considerable, and the burden thrown upon the industry might not be offset by counter-balancing advantages. I think I need say no more as regards the merits of the Bill. In conclusion I would say that the Government do not wish to oppose the Second Reading of the Bill, which I presume will be carried. As regards its subsequent stages, your Lord ships are masters of the situation as regards this House, but the Government cannot at the present time offer any facilities for its passage in another place.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, there is one thing which I should like to be allowed to say, and that is in regard to the question of cost. The noble Lord, Lord Mount Temple, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, took the attitude of multiplying the cost of this speedometer by the number of vehicles and seeing what was the result. Let me put an ordinary instance. How much does a man spend on a char-a-banc in order to make, money out of it? Probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of a couple of thousand pounds or more. He is asked to spend another £5 to see that the law is obeyed. It is nonsense to talk about the industry being

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hampered by that. One other thing I would like to say is that, though I am grateful to the noble Lord who spoke for the Government for allowing the Second Reading to go through, and though it may be a great consolation to anybody who is deploring the loss of his nearest and dearest by a road accident to feel that His Majesty's Government are still exploring every avenue and possibly even considering making a gesture, it would be better still if something was done in practice.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PROTECTION OF SEA-BIRDS.
LORD KILMAINE LORD KILMAINE had given Notice that he would call attention to the Wild Birds Protection Act, and move to resolve, That in the opinion of this House the said Act should be so amended as to deal with the case of sea-birds whose plumage becomes saturated with oil-fuel waste. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I was led to put down this Motion in the first instance from what I have seen myself in the last year and a half when I have been living on the south coast. My knowledge of oil pollution is exclusively confined to its effect on sea-birds. I have often walked along the sea-front and, seeing a crowd, have gone to find out what was the cause, and have seen one or more, sometimes a considerable number of sea-birds dead or in a dying condition. It was this repeated sight and the very grave indignation which exists in seaside places that led me to put clown this Motion. Your Lordships may not be aware that if you see one of these birds lying on the beach in a dying condition and you go and wring its neck, which is the only humane thing to do, you will be Table to prosecution under the Wild Birds Protection Act. I was first told this by a sailor, who said he had asked an inspector of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals about this matter and the inspector—I hope I am not giving him away, but I mention no name—said: "Well, if you come across a bird like that, as long as you are not seen, put it under your coat and take it away behind a wall or somewhere and wring its neck."
Since I put down the Motion my knowledge of this subject has been increased. I have a cutting from the Daily Express of February 7, which states:
"Hundreds of sea-birds—some of them dead, others dying of starvation—have been found washed up on the southern coast-line east of St. Alban's Head, Dorset. They are victims of what has been described as most flagrant case of cruelty in the world.' They have been choked and crippled by oil waste from steamers.
"'Oil is crawling round the world like a horrible cancer, eating into bird life,' said Mr. de Vere Stacpoole, the novelist, to a Daily Express representative yesterday. The thing is a national disgrace because it is absolutely preventable by the use of the new oil separators. The pollution of the sea by discharge of fuel oil from ships is a growing menace. Any sea-bird coming into contact with the oil becomes tangled in it. It can neither float, swim, nor dive, and dies after days, sometimes weeks, of starvation and torture. It is scandalous, and something should be done immediately.'
"Some time ago ninety seabirds, their wings clogged with oil, were washed up at Brighton, and seventy-eight at Folkestone. Sir Cooper Rawson, M.P., stated the facts in Parliament and the House unanimously gave him leave to introduce a Bill to prevent waste oil being emptied into the sea from the tanks of oil-driven vessels. Sir Cooper's Bill made it compulsory for oil-driven ships to be equipped with separators. Nothing further was heard about the Bill. The equipment of apparatus for separating oil from water for a large liner costs only £250. For a small trawler £10 or £15."
The other day I was sent a document headed "Pollution" by Lieut. Commander E. Kirkpatrick-Crockett, R.N., Fishery Officer. It is an address published "by authority of the South Wales Sea Fisheries District Committee." So I presume this gentleman must be rather learned and knows what he is talking about. According to him:
"Large areas of the shores from low to high water marks are now denuded of marine fauna, and this is attributable to pollution brought by the advancement made in industry, and an increase in the peoples who have subordinated the gifts of Mother Earth to their use and comfort. It is significant that when our basic industries are idle or working short time, pollution is considerably lessened, with an improvement in our rivers and around the sea coasts; but when work is again in full blast, pollution is again intensified. Many persons are conversant with the irritating and nauseating effect of oily water when bathing in the sea; it clings to the body, it is offensive and particularly objectionable. We somewhat peevishly complain but the trouble goes on year after year. …
"How this oil pollution advertised itself, coming as it did at the height of the

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visitors' season, when many local people were taking holiday also ! The need for drastic remedy was never more emphasised than when the Penarth foreshore was plastered with fuel oil. The irony of this particular fouling of the beach was that, after definite evidence was forthcoming as to who was the offender, and the presentation of the facts before the authorities, no action under existing legislation could be taken."
Alluding to children, the author of this address says:
"Playing about, the kiddies get themselves smothered with an oily substance, that treacle-like deposit we find so often left by the wind and the tide. …"
Here is another extract, quoted from a statement by the Council of the Fresh Water Biological Association of the British Empire:
"An increase in the amount of organic matter in the water which is a common consequence of pollution will result in an increase of bacterial activity with a consequent decrease in the amount of oxygen dissolved in the water. The amount of the dissolved oxygen may easily be lowered below the limit at which certain animals can exist, and this will cause the destruction of all such forms."
Again:
"But heavy oils denuded of their volatile content become impregnated with floating particles, they soon take on the characteristics of tarry substances, and finally sink to the sea bottom or river bed. So our contention is, and so has been observed in actual investigation, the sea and river bed becomes fouled and in the course of time life becomes steadily but surely obliterated or gives way to types which are parasitical. Indeed, this alone may be a direct cause of (from pollution) the tendency of parasites being harboured by marine and fresh water fishes, which set up obscure forms of disease in their hosts which baffle the scientists in many cases."
I make no excuse for giving these quotations because this man knows far more of the subject than I do. In another passage he says:
"That is the menace we have to fight against to-day, the hidden form of destruction in the form of pollution which is responsible for loss of life in an unseen direction, mainly at the moment confined to our inshore waters, but which, if unchecked, will steadily spread with evil results. … It has been observed that when shoals of herring and mackerel are about, there are whitebait, britt, or sprats to be seen. The herring feeds upon minute life consisting of miscroscopic plants and animals, but mackerel also consume the tiny fish. If oil covers the surface of the water the shoals have been seen to avoid it, and over a very wide area I have noticed this fact.
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"I have seen herring fleets lying at their nets over many miles from the Thames to the Orkneys and on the West Coast of Ireland; to leeward has stretched long lines of oily film from bilges. On the return to the grounds after landing their shots 'I have found that the catches have been considerably less particularly when large numbers of merchant shipping have passed to and fro and, as they alter course to clear the long lines of nets, in the ordinary routine of the voyage, have pumped bilges and the oily films, widely scattered, no doubt contributed largely to the mysteries attached to the question: 'Where are the fish?' ….
"The Oil in Navigable Waters Act, 1922, fails lamentably. It has many flaws, yet there has been no definite movement towards revision of the Act, since the Bill presented before the House of Commons became practically null and void under the present National Government, when so many Bills were abandoned, and Sir Cooper Raw-son's received only a First Reading."
In asking what attitude is taken with regard to oil-carrying vessels, this same writer says:
"Well ! These are not the primary offenders. The greatest menace at the present time arises from vessels which pump overboard indiscriminately their bilges and oil-fired vessels who dispose of their residues by means of the sea. The case is met by my own report made to the South Wales Sea Fisheries District Committee some time ago, and which was subsequently placed before the National Association of Fishery Boards for the information of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, which Government Department have annually placed before them relative matters requiring attention and seeking constructive action and co-operation.
Under the heading "Apply Remedies," there is this:
"The position of sea-birds is a terrible indictment. We may enforce laws for the preservation of our feathered friends but permit wholesale suffering and death to, these birds from oil pollution, which smothers the feathers as the birds alight upon the water or along our sea shores."
Surely, that is a terrible state of affairs, and I can testify that the indignation of animal lovers and other kind-hearted people is growing in intensity. I beg your Lordships, if you possibly can, to bring in some means by which this state of affairs can be prevented. If these birds cannot be saved then it should be made possible for those who see a bird in this state to put it out of its misery without risk of prosecution.
Moved to resolve, That in the opinion of this House the Wild Birds Protection Act should be so amended as to deal

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with the case of sea-birds whose plumage becomes saturated with oil-fuel waste.—(Lord Kilmaine.)
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, this matter has been so constantly before the Trustees of the Natural History Museum, of which I am Chairman, that I think it right to say a word or two about it. We have a, report upon it by experts, which the Trustees will shortly consider, and I hope it will be possible to carry this matter further. Incidentally, I think it is rather noteworthy that your Lordships should have given so much attention on one afternoon to the protection of wild birds. So far as this most painful matter to which the noble Lord has drawn attention is concerned it is, I think, thirteen years since the Royal Society for the Protection of Wild Birds called public attention to the devastation wrought among sea-birds by the discharge of oil waste into the sea. That society, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and other societies have made repeated representations to the shipping authorities and to the Government, and the noble Lord drew attention to the amiable but very short-lived effort made in the House of Commons, but the destruction nevertheless continues unabated—indeed, it almost seems to increase.
The matter was further considered by the International Conference on the Protection of Migratory Fowl, under the Chairmanship of Lord Ullswater. I wish the noble Viscount had been here to tell us what conclusions were reached. As I have said, no efforts, so far, have produced any result whatsoever, and this devastation of the life of sea-birds goes on all round our shores. I suppose one reason why it does not attract more attention is that the discharge of oil does not seem seriously, I understand, to affect the life of the fish on which so much the food of our people depends, and so far as our sea-coast places are concerned the damage appears mostly to be done during rough weather, and in the winter and spring. It does not call so much attention at other times. I have in my hands a map drawn up by the British section of the International Committee for the Protection of Wild Birds, giving a picture of the regions round our south and east coasts where
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this devastation is most marked, and it is most lamentable. A friend of mine only a few days ago said he had been on Beachy Head and that it was heartrending to see numbers of birds all along the beach suffering from this evil. It is pleasant to know that there was one person who, as a mere act of mercy, went about killing large numbers of these unfortunate birds.
What happens is that the oil saturates the bodies of these birds, so that they cannot fly, and therefore cannot feed. When they come ashore, sometimes they are still able to swim, but when they reach the shore the oil gets over their legs and they become perfectly helpless. All along our coasts there are numbers of these birds waiting for death. It is easy to paint the picture and it cannot he painted too strongly, but it is most difficult to discern the remedy. I suppose ultimately the only hope is that by international action the discharge of this oil wastage may be prevented beyond our own territorial limit of three miles. It is difficult to say whether that can be done, but at all events it will take a long time and, meanwhile, I suppose the best thing that can be done is to bring the pressure of public opinion upon shipping companies and others, with a view to advances towards making the use of this waste product a profitable undertaking, or towards disposing of it by mechanical means. There is, however, the evil, and it is a good thing from time to time to take the opportunity of calling public attention to this most lamentable destruction of sea-birds all along our coasts. Those who delight in watching the flights of these beautiful birds must realise that probably their delight in flying is even greater than the delight of those who watch them. These birds are entitled to the freedom of the sea and it is intolerable that the waters which, with the air and the cliffs, nature meant should he their homes should be the means of their destruction. I trust that the Government may be able to indicate some line of hope.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, I am sure that the House will be grateful to the noble Lord who moved the Motion for calling attention to a serious defect in the law as it now stands—namely, that if you find one of these unfortunate birds

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in the last stage of misery the law says you must not put an end to its suffering. That defect would be easy to remedy, but the main question, as pointed out by the noble Lord and by the most rev. Primate, is the far larger one of the appalling suffering to sea-birds caused by the discharge of oil into the sea. We have passed an Act of Parliament which makes it an offence to discharge this oil waste within the three miles limit, but that is not enough, because after storms or high winds the oil which is discharged into the sea outside the three miles limit is blown in on to the shore and causes these sufferings. The most rev. Primate has asked how that is to be remedied. I know of only one way, and that is by international action. I would appeal to the Government to represent in the proper quarters that we should do our utmost by diplomatic action to get the shipping Powers of the world to consent to a convention which would make it compulsory upon all ships which ply to our ports to have a separator, which would prevent this oil from coming on to the water and in that way prevent the oil from coming into our ports. If that could be done I believe it would obviate very nearly all the appalling suffering which is caused.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, I do not wish for a moment to minimise the terrible effect of oil pollution on bird life, which has been so forcibly put before your Lordships, but there is one other aspect of the matter which I should like to bring forward. We have always in this country cared about our sea and our coasts. One of the most famous tributes in our literature to our sea is that it performs its work of preventing the pollution of our shores. Is all that to come to an end ! Apart from what oil pollution does to the birds, it is a horrible thought from our own point of view that our shores should be made filthy. If the thing can be prevented that is surely a thing on which the public, especially in this country where we are really proud of our sea, feel strongly, and they rely upon the Government to take some action, if action is possible, to prevent it.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I am sure nobody can complain of this subject having been brought forward this afternoon, or of the way in which it has been brought forward. But it is rather diffi-
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cult for me to answer the noble Lord, because his Motion is rather paradoxical. He wants the Wild Birds Protection Act amended so as to deal with the case of sea-birds whose plumage becomes saturated with oil, but I understand that, if it is not so amended, all he wants to do is to wring their necks; and, as regards the other thing that he is complaining of, that has got nothing to do with the Wild Birds Protection Act.
LORD KILMAINE: I thought I said in my speech I was not aware whether any remedial action could be taken, and that, short of that, the only thing was that the sea-birds should be put out of their misery by death.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: That would be one way. But, as I was saying, the subject does not really come under the Wild Birds Protection Act, but under the other Act that has been mentioned, the Oil in Navigable Waters Act, 1922. The two points that I understand the noble Lord makes are, first, that a power is needed to put the birds out of their misery, and, second, that the oil which comes into these waters should as far as possible be curtailed. A certain amount of confusion has arisen over this question. The Board of Trade is really the Department which would have to deal with matters relating to the Oil in Navigable Waters Act, and I am afraid I cannot give the noble Lord very much information on that subject. But, as regards the protection of wild birds, as he knows, the principle on which these Acts proceed is the protection of birds and their eggs either during the breeding season or throughout the year. The Motion proposes that these Acts should be amended so as to deal with the birds whose plumage becomes saturated with oil-fuel waste. It would be almost impossible, as the noble Lord will admit, to fix any responsibility for the amount of oil which has been cast ashore, and which gets on to these birds. Therefore it is difficult to know what remedy can be suggested. That is especially so as the Wild Birds Protection Act and Orders made under it do not at present extend beyond the jurisdiction of county councils, that is, they only go as far as low-water mark. After that the only possible way to protect them would seem to be to take some means of curtailing the amount of oil discharged into the sea from ships passing our coasts.

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I would ask the noble Lord to put his Question down again if he wants a very detailed answer about the Oil in Navigable Waters Act, because I have not got very full information on the subject. But I can tell him and the most rev. Primate that the Oil in Navigable Waters Act, 1922, makes it a penal offence to discharge oil or oily water within the territorial waters of Great Britain and Ireland. The detection of offenders is, from the nature of the case, very difficult. Specific evidence of the source of the oil is essential before any definite action can be taken. But the Board are aware of twenty-seven cases of prosecutions under the Act, and convictions have been obtained in twenty cases.
The whole question of oil pollution was considered at an International Conference held at Washington in June, 1926. That Conference considered two main proposals: (1) the compulsory fitting of separators on oil-carrying and oil-burning vessels; and (2) the establishment of zones in which no oil or oily water should be discharged. It was found impossible to secure international agreement to the compulsory fitting of separators, and the Conference decided to recommend the establishment of a system of zones. After the Conference British shipowners and those of some foreign nations voluntarily agreed to instruct the masters of their ships not to discharge oil or oily water within fifty miles of the coast. In addition, a number of British shipowners and those of certain foreign countries have voluntarily fitted separators on their vessels. But I understand that the recommendation of 1926 to institute zones has not been formally adopted by the Governments concerned; so that up till now within the territorial waters of the United Kingdom the regulations are governed by the Act of 1922. I am told that the available evidence goes to show that pollution is decreasing.
EARL BUXTON: My Lords, I am disappointed with the answer of the noble Earl. It is quite true that the noble Lord who introduced this matter did speak specially of the Wild Birds Protection Act. Quite clearly that is not the main proposition which I think he had in his mind. He was, I imagine, asking the Government what they suggested in order to deal with the matter from the point of view of birds. Other aspects of it have
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been raised in the general interests of the public at large. What I would suggest is that the noble Lord should put down a Motion which would raise the whole question. I think it is invaluable. It is important, as the most rev. Primate has said, that this matter should receive greater public attention than it does now, and the best way to do that would be to put down a Motion which could be answered by the Government so that they could tell us what they propose to do, which is of a great deal more importance than what has occurred in the past.
I understand the noble Earl to say that there was an international Conference six years ago and nothing had come of that in regard either to general prohibition or to the question of zones. A good deal of oil has passed under the bridges since then, and I should have thought the matter had become so extremely important now that the Government might endeavour in some way to bring about agreement with regard to the subject. It is really very urgent not only for the various places in which it is especially bad, but one of the great anxieties of the matter is that unfortunately the oil, once there, practically remains there and does not evaporate. Therefore it is an increasing evil all round the coast. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Kilmaine, will raise this matter as a general one, so that we may have an answer from the Government as to the action they propose to take. I understand that the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, is unable to give us that information at the present moment and therefore I hope that this matter, on which public opinion is very much exercised, will be raised again.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I am surprised at Lord Lucan saying that he thought that this scandal was on the decrease. I do not think that is the case. It is cumulative. The oil deposited six months ago may be there to-day and is getting more foul. Perhaps one reason the noble Lord thinks it is less is that the sea is being plied every week by hundreds of thousands of tonnage less than a few years ago, but as soon as a better freight market re-emerges you may be sure that the danger of increased pollution will revive. I should have thought myself that it is more serious to-day than it was five years ago.

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Certainly at points on the seashore now birds are being killed, which was not the case, I think, quite recently, and we hear to-day far more complaints from seaside resorts than was the case before. My impression is that the scandal, so far from decreasing, has become more serious. I hope the Government will not be discouraged by the fact that the Washington Conference did not achieve any marked success. You cannot expect a thing like that to be settled all at once, and I hope that the Government will take the initiative towards a fresh international Conference on the subject. I am sure it is more likely to have results than it was then.
LORD KILMAINE: I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD KILMAINE: May I ask what are we to do if we find birds in the condition of which we have been speaking?
THE EARL OF LUCAN: I am afraid I cannot give the noble Lord information on that point.
LORD KILMAINE: It is not a question of one bird being found on the rocks. You find large numbers on the seashore.
THE LORD SPEAKER (THE EARL OF ONELOW): My Lords, I have no more right to speak than any other of your Lordships, but I would point out that the Motion has been withdrawn: we seem to be continuing the discussion.
LORD KILMAINE: I apologise to the House, and will bring the subject forward again.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
Message from the Commons for leave for the Clerk of the Parliaments to attend to be examined as a witness before the Select Committee of that House: Leave given accordingly, and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
House adjourned at a quarter before seven o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petition for additional provision in the following Bill:
Mablethorpe and Sutton Urban District Council.
Also the Certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Amersham, Beaconsfield and District Water [H.L],

South Metropolitan Gas [H.L.],

South Suburban Gas [H.L.],

Samaritan Free Hospital for Women [H.L.]

Cancer Hospital (Free) [H.L.],

Dearne District Traction [H.L],

East Hull Gas [H.L.].

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

BOOTLE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
DOVER HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
LONDON OVERGROUND WIRES, &c. BILL. [H.L.]
RUGBY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
SALFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
WIMBLEDON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
WORKSOP CORPORATION, BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: the Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

DONCASTER AREA DRAINAGE BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Askwith be proposed to the House as a member of the Joint Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Lord Amulree: Read, and agreed to.