Sitting of 17 March 1932

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

MEMBER SWORN.
The following Member took and subscribed the Oath:
Right honourable David Lloyd George, O.M., for Carnarvon District of Boroughs.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Commercial Gas Bill.
Bill committed.
South Wales Electric Power Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Edinburgh Corporation (Sheriff Court House, etc.) Order Confirmation Bill (by Order).
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next, at half-past Seven of the clock.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    BENEFIT (DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES).
    Mr. PARKINSONasked the Minister of Labour if he will consider the desirability of amending the Unemployment Insurance Act so as to make provision for the payment of dependants' allowances to the wife, if under 65 years of age, and family of men aged over 65 years who are engaged in industry and temporarily unemployed, seeing that the employer continues to pay contributions
    432
    after men have received an old age pension?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton): No, Sir, I cannot consider this in advance of the Report of the Royal Commission on Unemployment Insurance.

    TRANSITIONAL PAYMENTS.
    Lord SCONEasked the Minister of Labour if he will state to the nearest convenient date the number of those who have had their claims for transitional payments examined by the public assistance committee for the Burgh of Perth; how many have been granted full benefit; how many partial benefit; and how many have been entirely disallowed?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: With my Noble Friend's permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table analysing the total number of determinations in the manner desired.
    Following is the table:
    DETERMINATIONS given by the public assistance committee for the large Burgh of Perth on application for transitional payments—12th November, 1931, to 20th February, 1932.

    Number of initial applications

    930

    Number of renewal applications

    1,097

    Total

    2,027

    Allowed at maximum benefit rates

    960

    Allowed at rates lower than maximum benefit rates

    805

    Needs of applicants held not to justify payment being made

    262

    Mr. TINKERasked the Minister of Labour the latest figures available of cases determined under the means test, and the number allowed full benefit, partial benefit, and no benefit at all, expressed in terms of percentage; and also the figures of the counties with the highest percentage and lowest percentage of claims disallowed altogether?
    Mr. KIRKWOODasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons who have applied for relief to the public assistance committees under the means test and the number whose claims have been rejected?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table analysing the total number of determinations in the manner desired. As regards the second part of the question asked by the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), I am having the figures got out, and will circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT as soon as possible.
    Following is the table:
    DETERMINATIONS given by public assistance committees in Great Britain on applications for transitional payments, 12th November, 1931, to 20th February, 1932:

    Number of initial applications

    1,421,484

    Number of renewal applications

    1,791,378

    3,212,862

    Percentage of total applications.

    Allowed at maximum benefit rates

    53

    Allowed at rates lower than maximum benefit rates

    35.3

    Needs of applicants held not to justify payment being made

    11.7

    Mr. KIRKWOODasked the Minister of Labour if he can state the number of persons, whose claims were rejected by the public assistance committee under the means test, who took advantage of their right of appeal to the review committee; and whether he will consider issuing a form of words to applicants informing them that they have the right of appeal to the review committee?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I have no statistics with regard to the first part of the question. As regards the second part, the arrangements for considering representations made by applicants in regard to determinations affecting them are within the discretion of the authority, but, if the hon. Member is aware of cases in which applicants are not aware of such arrangements, and will give me particulars, I shall be glad to consult the authority concerned.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is the Minister not aware that the method by which the means test is being put into operation throughout the country is causing grave
    434
    dissatisfaction? Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to answer the last part of my question, as to whether he will consider issuing a form of words to applicants informing them that they have the right of appeal to the review committee?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I have already replied to that question. The public assistance committees in the country have their own arrangements, and it is not possible for me to give them directions; but I am anxious to help the hon. Member, and, if he will give me the name of any authority that he has in mind, I will communicate with that authority in order to allay the grievance which he states exists.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is scarcely a local authority in the country that is not appealed to every week by demonstrations regarding the manner in which the means test has been operated?
    Captain NORTHasked the Minister of Labour how many claims for transitional payments have been investigated by the public assistance committee of Nuneaton from the date on which the means test was first instituted until the end of February, 1932; in how many cases benefit has been disallowed; and in how many cases benefit has been granted in full and in part, respectively?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: With my hon. and gallant Friend's permission I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table analysing the total number of determinations in the manner desired.
    Following is the table:
    DETERMINATIONS given by the Nuneaton Guardians Committee on Applications for Transitional Payments—12th November, 1931, to 20th February, 1932.

    Number of initial applications

    2,013

    Number of renewal applications

    1,961

    3,974

    Allowed at maximum benefit rates

    2,554

    Allowed at rates lower than maximum benefit rates

    412

    Needs of applicants held not to justify payment being made

    1,008

    TRAINING CENTRE, SLOUGH.
    Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOXasked the Minister of Labour if he can now state whether he will admit a percentage of local young unemployed men to the Slough training centre?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I am having inquiries made, as my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, and I will write to him in due course.
    Sir A. KNOX: Will the Minister take into consideration the fact that unemployment in Slough is now worse than it has ever been, and also that the new factories which are being established employ women's labour chiefly, so that the men get no chance; that it is impossible for the local youths to sit quietly and watch the importation of people to be trained in jobs which they consider they have the right to have?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I assure my hon. and gallant Friend that those are the very points upon which I am making inquiries.
    Mr. LAWSON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if unemployment is worse in Slough than it is in, say, Durham?
    Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: Is it the fact that permits are issued by the right hon. Gentleman's Department to foreigners in order that they may take jobs here?
    Sir A. KNOX: Is not the unemployment due to the fact that so many trainees are coming from other places?

    TIN-MINING INDUSTRY.
    Lieut.-Commander AGNEWasked the Minister of Labour the number of tin miners unemployed on 22nd February, 1932, or the nearest convenient date?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: For statistical purposes, insured persons in the tin-mining industry are included in the industrial group "Lead, Tin and Copper Mining." At 22nd February, 1932, there were 3,154 insured persons in this classification recorded as unemployed in Great Britain.

    INSURANCE (ROYAL COMMISSION'S REPORT).
    Mr. STOURTONasked the Minister of Labour if he can state approximately the date when he expects to receive the Report of the Royal Commission on Unemployment Insurance?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to, the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. T. Cook) on the 8th March.
    Mr. HANNON: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the very strong feeling throughout the country that we should have this report as early as possible, in order to bring about reforms in the administration??
    Sir H. BETTERTON: Yes, Sir, I am fully aware of that feeling; but I would remind my hon. Friend that this is a matter which is entirely outside my control. I am just as anxious as he is that we should have the report as soon as possible, but I would remind him that the matters which the Royal Commission are considering are extremely difficult and very complex.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how often this Commission sits in the week, and for how many hours a day?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I am afraid I cannot give that information, but I know that they are sitting constantly, and I think that even now they are receiving fresh evidence.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is it not a fact that the Commission has not met this week?

    NORTH-WESTERN DIVISION.
    Mr. HAMILTON KERRasked the Minister of Labour if he can make any statement as to the nature and extent of the diminution in unemployment in Lancashire during the past month?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: Separate figures for Lancashire are not available. In the North-Western Division as a whole, which includes Lancashire, Cheshire, Cumberland and Westmorland, there was a net decrease between 25th January and 22nd February, 1932, of 20,380 in the number of insured persons recorded as unemployed. There was a decrease of 12,400 in the cotton industry, 1,829 in coal mining, 1,394 in the building industry and 1,343 in textile bleaching, dyeing, and finishing.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in view of the fact that so many cases of unemploy-

    437
    ment claims are being turned down, the register itself is not a correct indication of the number of unemployed?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: No, I do not accept that for a moment, because, if persons have not registered at the Exchange, the inference is that they have either got work or that they do not want the assistance of the Exchange in getting work.
    Mr. DAVIES: Will the right hon. Baronet answer the question whether unemployment is increasing or otherwise in Lancashire, apart altogether from giving figures with regard to the number of persons on the register?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I have answered the question on the Paper. I have said that the number recorded as unemployed has decreased this month by 20,300.
    Mr. LAWSON: Is it not an admitted fact that that is just one of the areas where people who are turned down from unemployment benefit do not register—that is, married women?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: No, the inference that I draw is that it is just one of the areas where I am glad to say employment has increased and unemployment has diminished.

    STATISTICS.
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Minister of Labour what is the estimate of the increase in the number of non-registered unemployed due to the means test, the Anomalies Act, and the other legislative and administrative changes since August, 1931?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: It is estimated that at 22nd February, 1932, the total number of persons who had ceased to register at Employment Exchanges after disallowance of benefit or transitional payments, was approximately 148,000, but as pointed out in the reply to a similar question by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) on 11th February, it is clear that nothing approaching this number should properly be included in a total of the unemployed.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what proportion of
    438
    the 148,000 it is estimated will be normally unemployed?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: That is exactly the supplementary question which the hon. Member asked before. The answer is that a very considerable number have found employment and the balance must be considered as not wanting the benefit and advantages of the Exchanges.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman state what percentage, if any, of the figure is due to the working of the Anomalies Act as applied to seasonal workers?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: The Anomalies Act, I would remind the hon. Member, was passed by the last Government. I cannot give the percentage which the lion. Member wants without notice.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is it not the case that at least a number of these people are affected and that they were deliberately put off under the Anomalies Act?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: Certainly, a number were put off by reason of the Anomalies Act.

  BREAD PRICES.
  Mr. HOWARDasked the Minister of Labour if he will give a return of the average prices of bread per four-pound loaf at the latest comparable date in Britain, France, Germany, and Denmark?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: As the reply contains a number of figures, I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the reply:
  The average prices of bread at the latest comparable date, for the countries concerned, are given in the Table below. The figures shown are taken from official publications, and relate to white bread, except in the case of Germany, for which country the only information available for any recent date relates to rye bread. In the absence of information concerning the qualities of bread to which the various quotations relate, it is not known how far the prices shown may be regarded as comparable one with another.

  Country.

  Date to which price relates.

  Average price per 4 lb. of bread.

  Great Britain and Northern Ireland (general average).

  1st January, 1932

  7d.

  France (Paris)

  January, 1932

  4·09 Francs.

  Germany (Berlin)*

  20th January, 1932

  0·65 Reichsmarks.

  (34 towns)*

  20th January, 1932

  0·49 to 0·85 Reichsmarks.

  Denmark (general average)

  January, 1932

  1·16 Kroner.

  * The prices quoted for Germany are for rye bread. The latest available information as to the price of white bread in Germany relates to January, 1931, when the average price in six large towns was reported to be equivalent to 1·49 Reichsmarks for 4 lb.

  EX-SERVICE MEN (KING'S NATIONAL ROLL).
  Major LEIGHTONasked the Minister of Labour whether the number of firms registered on the King's Roll has decreased or increased during the last year?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: The number of firms enrolled on the King's National Roll decreased by 566 from 25,910 in December, 1930, to 25,34,4 in December, 1931.
  Mr. HANNON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many municipalities are on the roll?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: There is another question on that point.
  Major LEIGHTON: Are there any steps that the right hon. Gentleman can take in order to get further firms to enrol?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: In this matter we rely upon the King's Roll National Council, and I will see that the question of my hon. and gallant Friend, and the answer, are brought to the attention of the Council.
  Major LEIGHTON: Would it be possible, if I put down another question, for the right hon. Gentleman to say how many ex-service men have been absorbed under this scheme?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: Yes, Sir. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will put a question down.
  Major LEIGHTONasked the Minister of Labour whether all local authorities have now registered on the King's Roll and, if not, how many have not so registered?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: With the exception of 50, all local authorities which, by reason of the size of the staff employed by them, could be expected to fulfil the requisite conditions, are enrolled on the King's National Roll.
  Major LEIGHTON: Would it be possible to make public the names of those local authorities that have not enrolled?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: That question has been asked very often in past years, and the King's Roll National Council have themselves considered it. They consider however that to publish the names would not achieve the end which they have in view and they prefer that these authorities should not be pilloried.
  Major LEIGHTON: Would it not be possible to circulate the names in the OFFICIAL REPORT, SO that Members of Parliament may know them?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: I do not think that that would have the approval of the King's Roll National Council. They have directly asked us not to do it.
  Major LEIGHTONasked the Minister of Labour what means he adopts to ensure that firms which have registered on the King's Roll continue to employ the right percentage of disabled men?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: The local administration of the King's Roll Scheme is a responsibility of local King's Roll Committees, which, from time to time, take such steps as they consider necessary to satisfy themselves that employers on the Roll are observing the terms of their undertakings. A Certificate of Enrolment under The National Scheme is usually granted for two years only, and

  441
  the position is reviewed by the local committee at the end of that period before enrolment is renewed.
  Major LEIGHTON: Could the Minister make tests among a few firms in different parts of England, to see whether this scheme is being carried out?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: I will inquire of the King's Roll National Council as to whether they can provide me with the information for which my hon. and gallant Friend asks.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    MINISTRY OF LABOUR.
    Captain NORTHasked the Minister of Labour to what extent it has been found possible to reduce the staffs of the Ministry of Labour in consequence of the amount of work connected with transitional payments which has been taken over by public assistance committees since November last?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: The administration of the needs test was additional work, which, though undertaken in the main by the public assistance authorities fell also in part on the staffs of the Exchanges. There has, therefore, been no reduction of staff on this account but, owing to the fall in the Live Register, the total of the Exchange staffs at the end of February was lower by 428 than it was at the end of September.

    MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
    Mr. J. A. L. DUNCANasked the Minister of Health the number of salaried persons holding medical qualifications on the headquarters staffs of the Ministry of Health in March, 1925, and March, 1932?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Ernest Brown): The numbers are 56 and 52, respectively.

    WOMEN FACTORY INSPECTORS.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the number of women workers in the factories of England and Wales; the number of factories that may be inspected by his Department; and the number of women inspectors available for inspection duties?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir Herbert Samuel): Returns show that in 1930 there were 1,806,850 women and girls employed in factories: the figure for 1931 is not yet available. The number of registered factories at the end of 1931 was 155,354. There are at present 56 women inspectors in the divisional and district staffs. It would, of course, not be practicable to lay down any rule that factories where women only are employed should be inspected only by women inspectors.
    Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: Are any of these women inspectors medical inspectors?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: I could not say without notice.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Home Secretary what is the number of women factory inspectors in Classes 1A, 1B and 2; and whether, in future, he will arrange that the Estimates should show the numbers of each sex in all classes of inspectors?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: There are at present nine women inspectors in Class 1A, 19 in Class 1B and 26 in Class 2. As regards the latter part of the question, I am afraid it would not be possible to comply with the hon. Member's request. The men's and women's staffs have now been amalgamated, and while the total complement of inspectors in each of the classes mentioned is definitely fixed, and shown accordingly in the Estimates, the number in each sex may vary from time to time.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think there ought to be some discrimination in the Estimates?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: I will consider the suggestion.

    ASSISTANT UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Home Secretary whether the three assistant Under-Secretaries of State, for whom a provision of £4,331 is made in the Estimates for 1932, have yet been appointed; what will be their duties; and why it is considered necessary to appoint three assistant under-secretaries in place of one principal assistant secretary?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: These appointments have been made with effect as from 1st April next. The changes mentioned in

    443
    the question are only part of a re-organisation which has been effected in the Home Office and which was long overdue. It is the result of very careful inquiry, and has, of course, the concurrence of the Treasury. It will be brought into effect gradually, and there will, in fact, be no increase in expenditure in the coming financial year.

    INCOME TAX OFFICERS, CARNARVON.
    Mr. JOHNasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of Income Tax offices in the county of Carnarvon; the number of staff in each office; and the number of inspectors and staff who are able to speak the Welsh language?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): I will circulate the information asked for in the form of a tabular statement, but perhaps I may say at once that more than 50 per cent. of the staff are able to speak Welsh.
    Following is the information:

    Office.

    Staff.

    Welsh Speaking.

    Bangor

    …

    25

    16

    Llandudno

    …

    15

    6

    Portmadoc

    …

    19

    12

    CUSTOMS OFFICIALS, BRISTOL (OVERTIME).
    Mr. BERNAYSasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he has considered the communication sent to him from the Bristol port authorities with regard to payment for overtime of the customs officials; and what answer he proposes to send?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Major Elliot): I cannot trace the receipt of the communication referred to by my hon. Friend. If he will be good enough to send me a copy I will certainly consider the matter.

  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION.
  Mr. TINKERasked the Home Secretary if returns are made to his Department of the failure of companies or concerns where the assets are not sufficient to meet the legal claims of workmen entitled to compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act; and, if so, how many failed during 1930 and 1931, giving separate figures for Lancashire?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: My Department is informed by the Registrar of Joint Stock Companies and the Mines Department of cases of failure among colliery undertakings, and it then makes inquiry through the liquidator or receiver in regard to the outstanding claims. These inquiries show that there were 10 cases in 1930 to 1931, including one Lancashire case, in which it is possible or probable that the assets may be insufficient but, so far as the Department is aware, in none of these cases has a final settlement been reached.

  WILD BIRDS, KENT.
  Earl WINTERTONasked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the destruction of a white-tailed eagle in Kent, contrary to the regulations made under the Kent Wild Birds Order; and if he proposes to take any action in the matter?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: Yes, Sir. I am informed by the Chief Constable of Kent that proceedings are being instituted against the person who is reported to have shot the bird.

  PENTON VILLE PRISON STAFF.
  Mr. DONNERasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the staff at Pentonville Prison is so short that officers have to be drawn from the division off duty at week-ends; and will he consider taking steps to prevent an interruption of the officers' normal rest days on alternate Saturdays and Sundays?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: The turns of duty of prison officers are so arranged that so far as practicable each officer shall have two free days every second week-end. At Pentonville the number of officers called in from the off-duty division on Saturday or Sunday does not exced five out of a staff of 96, and no officer has had his week-end interrupted in this way more than four or five times in a year. An officer so called in is given equivalent time off in the following week. If no such occasional calls were allowed, the ordinary week-day staff would have to be increased beyond the requirements of the service, and the expense of this would not be warranted.
  Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much the staff of Pentonville has been cut down in the last month?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: Not without notice.

  POLICE.

    AMALGAMATIONS (INQUIRY).
    Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the Home Secretary whether, in the interests of economy, he will draw up a scheme for the abolition of all small local police forces and for their incorporation in the appropriate county police forces?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: This proposal raises questions which require careful consideration. It is desirable that all those interested should have an opportunity to state their points of view, and to this end it is proposed to ask the House to appoint a Select Committee to consider and report upon the question of the amalgamation of small police forces with larger units of police administration.

    WOMEN POLICE.
    Mr. LEWISasked the Home Secretary whether since the introduction of women police the number of cases of attacks on women and girls has a tendency to increase or to decrease?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: Since women police were first employed, during the War, the reported numbers of some kinds of attacks on women and girls have decreased, while others have increased. Such fluctuations are due to various factors and I am unable to suggest any direct relation between them and the employment of women police.
    Mr. LEWIS: Do we understand that the appointment of women police does not seem to have caused any marked diminution?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: The comparatively small number of women police would not have any great effect over the whole country.
    Commander OLIVER LOCKER-LAMPSON: Are men more effective than women?

  TRANSPORT.

    MINOR TRAFFIC OFFENCES.
    Mr. LECKIEasked the Home Secretary whether, in order to make the new
    446
    procedure for dealing with minor traffic offences in the Metropolitan district applicable to the provinces, he will issue a circular on the subject to the appropriate authorities?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: I am proposing to inform Chief Officers of Police outside the Metropolis of the action that is being taken by the Commissioner of Police both as regards procedure for dealing with minor traffic offences and also the special measures he is proposing to take to prevent heavy vehicles from being driven at excessive speeds.

    ROAD AND RAIL ACCIDENTS.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Home Secretary if he will state the number of persons killed and injured in this country on railways and roads, respectively, in each of the last 10 years?
    Sir H. SAMUEL: As the answer involves a number of figures, I will circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The numbers of persons known by the police to have been killed or injured by vehicles and horses in streets, roads, or public places in Great Britain are available only for the year 1926 and onward. Prior to 1926, the information collected related only to accidents resulting in death or personal injury. The figures for each of the last 10 years are as follow:

    Number of Accidents.

    Year.

    Fatal Accidents.

    Non-Fatal Accidents.

    1922

    …

    2,768

    …

    67,429

    1923

    …

    2,979

    …

    80,122

    1924

    …

    3,631

    …

    94,584

    1925

    …

    3,971

    …

    111,502

    NUMBER of Persons Killed or Injured.

    Year.

    Killed.

    Injured.

    1926

    …

    4,886

    …

    133,888

    1927

    …

    5,329

    …

    148,575

    1928

    …

    6,138

    …

    164,838

    1929

    …

    6,696

    …

    170,917

    1930

    …

    7,305

    …

    177,895

    1931

    …

    6,690

    …

    202,120

    The numbers of persons (excluding trespassers and suicides) killed and injured on railways in Great Britain in each

    447
    of the years from 1921 to 1930 are as follow. The figures for 1931 are not yet available:

    Year.

    Killed.

    Injured.

    1921

    …

    416.

    …

    18,873

    1922

    …

    402

    …

    19,344

    1923

    …

    407

    …

    23,104

    1924

    …

    462

    …

    25,641

    1925

    …

    465

    …

    26,393

    1926

    …

    374

    …

    23,433

    1927

    …

    435

    …

    25,403

    1928

    …

    460

    …

    24,324

    1929

    …

    417

    …

    25,364

    1930

    …

    380

    …

    24,311

    LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BILL
    Mr. PARKINSONasked the Prime Minister when it is proposed to proceed with the London Passenger Transport Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. PARKINSON: If I repeat the Question when the House reassembles after Easter, will the sight hon. Gentleman be able to give a reply?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I shall be very glad. In fact, I intend to make an announcement as soon as possible. Negotiations are proceeding.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: Is it the intention to proceed with the Bill introduced last year, or is it the intention of the Government, on the other hand, to introduce a new Bill altogether?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave to that question some weeks ago.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS.
  Captain ERSKINE-BOLSTasked the Home Secretary whether, in connection with the legislation he intends to introduce to deal with matters covered by the Sunday Performances (Temporary Regulation) Act, 1931, which is due to expire during the present year, he can give an assurance that the Bill will be so drafted as to enable a free decision to be reached by the House as to what types of Sunday entertainment are to be permitted?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: The Bill will be substantially identical with the Bill introduced last year by my predecessor, as amended in Committee. In that case a wide range of discussion was permissible, and I have no reason to suppose that the position will not be the same on this occasion.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: Will the decision be left to a free vote?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: Yes.
  Mr. HANNON: In drafting the Bill, will the right hon. Gentleman take care to preserve the sanctity of the British Sunday?

  PUBLIC BILLIARD ROOMS (LICENCES).
  Captain STRICKLANDasked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the desirability of taking steps to remove the grant of licences for public billiard rooms from brewster sessions and transferring the power to the local authorities?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: This question must await the consideration by the Government of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Licensing.

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Minister of Health whether be proposes to introduce legislation to deal with the problems connected with national health insurance; and, if so, when?
  Mr. E. BROWN: The problems to which the hon. Member refers are receiving my right hon. Friend's most careful consideration as a matter of urgency, but he is not yet in a position to make any statement as to the introduction of legislation to deal with them.
  Mr. DAVIES: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Prolongation Act, which keeps unemployed insured persons in the scheme, will finish at the end of the year?
  Mr. BROWN: The hon. Gentleman will notice the wording in the answer, that these matters are under consideration as a matter of urgency.
  Captain STRICKLANDasked the Minister of Health the reason for the

  449
  present disadvantageous position of deposit contributors compared with contributors through an approved society under the National Health Insurance Acts; and whether he will consider an early amendment granting them equal privileges?
  Mr. E. BROWN: The National Health Insurance scheme has from the first been based on the provision of benefits to insured persons through approved societies, and the full advantages of the scheme can only be obtained through membership of a society. My right hon. Friend sees no reason for amending the Act in this respect. The Act already contains special provision to meet the case of insured persons who, by reason of ill-health, are unable to secure admission to an approved society.

  HOUSING.

    LANCASHIRE.
    Mr. TINKERasked the Minister of Health if he will give the present number of houses per 1,000 of the inhabitants for Lancashire and separate figures for Leigh, Atherton, and Tyldesley; and will he gives corresponding figures for 1925?
    Mr. E. BROWN: My right hon. Friend regrets that figures based on last year's Census are not yet available for particular areas. He is sending the hon. Member a note of certain figures extracted from reports made by the medical officers of health for the three urban areas he mentions.
    Mr. LUNN: Is it not possible to publish figures at an early date for all districts in the country?
    Mr. BROWN: The figures are very complicated and require a great deal of analysis. I can assure the hon. Member that everything is being done in order to get publication at the earliest moment.

    RENT RESTRICTIONS ACT.
    Mr. PARKINSONasked the Minister of Health when he proposes to introduce the promised legislation to implement the report of the Inter-Departmental Committee on Rent Restrictions?
    Mr. E. BROWN: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given last week to the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Hicks).
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is it not the case that the Government promised to bring in a Bill to deal with the position in this country as soon as they possibly could, and that last week the Lord President of the Council said that he was sorry that they would have no time?
    Mr. BROWN: The answer last week said that the Minister could not say at present when it would be possible.

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    MILK AND DAIRIES ACT.
    Mr. THORNEasked the Minister of Health whether any cases have been brought to his notice arising from neglect to conform with the regulations of the Milk and Dairies Act, so far as cowsheds and cowhouses are concerned; and, if so, what action he has taken in the matter?
    Mr. E. BROWN: In the limited time at his disposal, my right hon. Friend has been unable to trace any recent cases. The enforcement of the provisions of the Milk and Dairies Order is a matter for the local authorities and not for my Department, and where any alleged contravention of the Order is brought to my right hon. Friend's notice the first action is to communicate with the responsible local authority.

    MIDWIVES (TRAINING GRANTS).
    Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLEasked the Minister of Health the total amount of grants disbursed by the Ministry during the year ended 5th April, 1931, towards the training of midwives; whether the grants were paid direct to training schools; and, if so, the number of pupils trained under such grants and the number proposing to practise as midwives and health visitors, respectively?
    Mr. E. BROWN: The total amount of the grants disbursed by the Ministry during the year ended 5th April, 1931, towards the training of midwives was £21,363. These grants were paid direct to the training schools. The number of pupils in respect of whom grants were paid was 752, of whom 717 proposed to practise as midwives and 35 as health visitors.
    Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLEasked the Minister of Health whether any regulations regarding the payment of grants

    451
    for the training of midwives have been made under the Local Government Act, 1929?
    Mr. E. BROWN: No, Sir. The conditions governing the payment of grants for this purpose were settled and published in 1925, and were not affected by the passing of the Local Government Act of 1929.
    Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: Can my hon. Friend say whether provision was made in the Act for a revision of those regulations?
    Mr. BROWN: I will refer my hon. and gallant Friend to Memorandum 102 of 1925, where he will find those particulars outlined.

    CURED BACON.
    Mr. THORNEasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that some bacon imported from America is cured in a solution of borax for preservation in transit; and what steps are taken by his Department to ensure that bacon so cured is not harmful to the health of the consumer?
    Mr. E. BROWN: The importation of bacon cured with borax is prohibited under the Preservatives Regulations. My right hon. Friend is not aware of any recent contravention of the Regulations in this respect but if the hon. Member will give him any particulars in his possession inquiries will be made.

  PRIVATE STREET WORKS.
  Mr. RAIKESasked the Minister of Health whether he has yet come to any decision as to the amendment of the law and practice in regard 'to private street works; and whether he is now in a position to make an announcement?
  Mr. E. BROWN: Suggestions for the amendment of the law and practice in regard to private street works are now being considered by the associations of the responsible local authorities and my right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to make any definite announcement on the subjeot.

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    POUND STERLING (EXCHANGE VALUE).
    Mr. DAVID GRENFELLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what action
    452
    is being taken by the Government Ito check foreign speculation in sterling?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer to the reply which was given to the hon. Member for the Western Isles Division (Mr. T. Ramsay) and to the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) on Monday last.

    INCOME TAX.
    Mr. MITCHESONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount of rewards paid during the current financial year to persons giving information to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue as to other taxpayers' incomes; and whether, in view of the hardship which may be caused to innocent persons in rebutting such information when incorrect, he will take steps to stop the practice of rewarding such informers?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The total amount of the rewards paid by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue during the current financial year is £1,050. These rewards are granted under statutory powers, conferred by Section 32 of the Inland Revenue Regulation Act, 1890. In my view there is no sufficient reason for making any change in the law in this matter.
    Mr. CONANTasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the rules which govern the granting of relief from Schedule A taxation on rents remitted on account of agricultural depression?
    Major ELLIOT: A landlord who, owing either to agricultural depression generally or to the farming difficulties of a particular tenant, grants a temporary remission of the whole or part of the rent of land used for farming, without any consideration therefor, is in the ordinary way granted a relief for Income Tax purposes. Relief is given by way of an allowance from the Schedule A assessment and, in the absence of special circumstances, is measured by the tax on the amount of rent actually remitted.
    Mr. CONANT: Will my right hon. Friend consider the extension of this concession to cottages in agricultural districts as well as to land where rents are remitted?
    Major ELLIOT: I should require notice of that question.

    BEER DUTY.
    Sir WILLIAM WAYLANDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of standard barrels of beer brewed in February, 1931, and February, 19323 and the amounts of revenue represented by the figures of the respective years?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The figures are as follow:

    February, 1931.

    February, 1932.

    Number of standard barrels brewed

    1,119,000

    907,000

    Excise duty-charged thereon

    £4,335,000

    £4,838,000

    ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
    Captain ERSKINE-BOLSTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in considering any future imposition of the Entertainments Duty, he will take into consideration the adoption of some means whereby the duty payable in respect of entertainments at which living artistes appear can be remitted wholly or in part with the object of encouraging employment and British stage productions?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have noted my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion; but I am sure he will not expect me to anticipate my Budget Statement.

    WAR GRATUITY CERTIFICATES (CONVERSION).
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir MERVYN MANNINGHAM-BULLERasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury for what reason no arrangements have been made to permit the conversion of war gratuity certificates in cases where their holders possess in the aggregate an amount of war savings certificates and/or war gratuity certificates in excess of £500; and whether he will consider the advisability of amending the regulations so as to permit the continuance of the concession made to ex-service men under the new conversion scheme?
    Major ELLIOT: Holders of the special issue of war gratuity certificates who already hold the maximum number of certificates of other issues may continue to hold their war gratuity certificates
    454
    until 31st March, 1940, with interest accruing after the tenth year at the rate of 1d. a month. Alternatively, they may convert them into 4½ per cent. Conversion Loan or 4 per cent. National Savings Bonds under the offers now open. The existing rights of holders of war gratuity certificates are not interfered with in any way whatever, and I regret that I cannot contemplate arrangements which would involve further special privileges to holders.

    NEWSPAPER INSURANCE (STAMP DUTY).
    Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether newspapers and magazines offering insurance to registered readers against the risk of fire and/or personal accident are charged the 6d. duty on policies or contracts under the Finance Act, 1920; and, if so, the estimated approximate yield of the tax on such policies and contracts for the financial year 1931–32?
    Major ELLIOT: Section 116 of the Stamp Act, 1891, provides for the payment of an annual composition duty as an alternative to stamping policies in cases where, in the opinion of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, it is impracticable to require the ordinary 6d. duty to be stamped on policies. The newspapers insurances which my hon. Friend has in mind are dealt with under this Section. The estimated amount of this composition duty for the year 1931–32 payable in respect of newspaper and magazine insurance schemes is £36,000.

  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (TRAVEL VOUCHERS).
  Lieut.-Colonel SANDEMAN ALLENasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will arrange that the travel vouchers for Members may also be made available for journeys by long-distance motor coaches?
  Major ELLIOT: If there is evidence of a general desire among Members to make use of travelling facilities by long-distance motor coaches, I will have my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion further explored. I fear, however, that the practical difficulties would be very great.

  FRIENDLY SOCIETIES (REGISTRATION).
  Captain P. MACDONALDasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will consider taking steps to bring unregistered friendly societies under compulsory registration?
  Major ELLIOT: The registration of friendly societies has hitherto been voluntary, and a reversal of this principle involves difficult problems. The matter, however, is not being lost sight of, and if the hon. and gallant Member has in mind any particular instances of the activities of unregistered friendly societies, perhaps he would communicate on the subject with the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies.

  AGRICULTURE.

    DRAINAGE GRANTS.
    Colonel CLIFTON BROWNasked the Minister of Agriculture if drainage grants for moorland farms are to be again continued for England?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir John Gilmour): I regret that it has been necessary to discontinue these grants on grounds of economy.
    Colonel BROWN: Then, may I ask why are those grants being continued in Scotland?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am not concerned with that matter.
    Colonel BROWN: Am I to understand that Englishmen are to go without and that Scotsmen are to receive the grants?

    UNEMPLOYED ALLOTMENT HOLDERS (ASSISTANCE).
    Mr. KIRKWOODasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that the work done by the Society of Friends in placing out-of-work men on allotments is being held up by the withdrawal of the Government grant; and whether, in view of the improved financial position nationally, he will consider giving a grant to the society?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I understand from the Society of Friends that in connection with their scheme for assisting unemployed persons taking up allotments to obtain seeds, fertilisers, and implements, they have not so far refused any application owing to lack of funds, and they
    456
    hope that as a result of their further public appeal for money, they will not find it necessary to do so. In reply to the last part of the question, as already stated, it will not be possible for the Government to provide money towards the cost of this scheme.

    WHEAT BILL.
    Mr. SUTCLIFFE(for Mr. JENNINGS) asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider issuing a simple explanatory circular on the Wheat Bill so that small tillage farmers will be better able to understand it?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I recognise the value to farmers of an explanatory circular or leaflet dealing with the provisions of the Wheat Bill, and I have no doubt that the Wheat Commission, when appointed, would be prepared to consider the question of the preparation and issue of such a leaflet.

    BEET-SUGAR INDUSTRY.
    Sir F. HALLasked the Minister of Agriculture what has been the approximate total profit accruing to the beet-sugar factories in respect of refining imported raw sugar during each year in which such operations have been carried out; and whether any allowance was made for such subsidiary profits in the calculations upon which the original subsidy terms were based?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am not in a position to give the information asked for in the first part of the question. The answer to the second part is in the negative.
    Mr. MACPHERSONasked the Minister of Agriculture what have been the aggregate amounts, respectively, paid to farmers for sugar-beet in the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk, and Lincolnshire, and to beet-sugar factories situate in those counties in respect of subsidy and duty preference since the beginning of the beet-sugar subsidy scheme; and how these amounts compare with the total amounts disbursed to all farmers for beet and to all factories in respect of duty and subsidy over the same period?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: As the reply includes a tabular statement, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    So far as payments to growers in particular areas are concerned, I can give figures only by reference to the situation

    457
    of the factories for which the beets were grown. Subject to this proviso, the information desired by the hon. Member in

    Area.

    Aggregate Amounts paid to growers by factories in the area.

    Total assistance granted to factories in the area.

    Subsidy.

    Effective duty preference.

    £

    £

    £

    Norfolk

    …

    …

    …

    5,805,000

    5,057,000

    1,087,000

    Suffolk

    …

    …

    …

    4,556,000

    3,993,000

    903,000

    Lincolnshire

    …

    …

    …

    2,722,000

    2,262,000

    517,000

    Great Britain

    …

    …

    …

    25,654,000

    22,368,000

    4,927,000

    Mr. LEWISasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, having regard to the suitability of the agricultural land in the neighbourhood of Colchester for the growing of sugar-beet and having regard to the fact that there is no beet-sugar factory within a convenient distance, he will inquire as to the desirability and practicability of further steps being taken to develop the sugar-beet industry in this district?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No, Sir. The question of the desirability and practicability of erecting new beet-sugar factories is a matter for private enterprise.

    PIGS (IMPORT LICENCE).
    Mr. LEWISasked the Minister of Agriculture if, in pursuance of the discretion allowed to him under Section 27 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, he will reconsider the application made to his Department by Mr. R. Browning, of Tey Brook, Great Tey, Essex, in November last, for a licence to import two Landrace pigs from Denmark, as the reason for the application is for the purpose of improving the quality of that farmer's pigs?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have reviewed this matter and see no reason for altering the decision already reached.
    Mr. LEWIS: Am I to understand that the Minister is not willing to give a licence to any stockbreeder to import any of his stock?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The rule is that if a breed society brings stock into the country we consider it, but in individual cases like this it is unnecessary. We take the view that it is undesirable, particularly in view of the amount of foot-and-
    respect of the subsidy period up to and including the 1930–31 season, is as follows:
    mouth disease that exists in foreign countries.
    Mr. PIKE: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the suggestion that breeders abroad are more likely to protect their own bacon than that of other people?

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT).
  Mr. MANDERasked the hon. Member for Monmouth as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee what change there has been in the consumption of Empire wines in the House of Commons since the initiation of the "Buy British" campaign, taking the figures as last given in answer to a question and those with reference to the present time?
  Sir JOHN GANZONI (for Sir LEOLIN FORESTIER-WALKER): The proportional sale of Empire Wines for the year ended 31st December, 1931, was 6.00 per cent., against 5.70 per cent. for the previous year.
  Mr. DINGLE FOOT: Would it not be possible to establish a quota compelling all. Members to drink 15 per cent. of Empire wine?
  Mr. MANDER: Am I to understand that, in spite of all the propaganda, Members of Parliament are drinking practically no more Empire wine than they did two years ago?
  Mr. HANNON: May I ask the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee whether he can give any indication to the House of the quantity of Empire wine drunk by the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander)?
  Sir J. GANZONI: The reply to the first supplementary question, is that it is better to leave it to the discretion of hon. Members. In reply to the second supplementary, I may say that the Empire campaign had not had time to affect last year's figures. The choice of Empire wines has been greatly increased lately, and no doubt the hon. Member will be much better pleased with this year's figures.
  Mr. MANDER: I drink nothing but pure Empire beverages.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    CHINA CLAY (FRENCH IMPORT QUOTA).
    Mr. PETHERICKasked the President of the Board of Trade if His Majesty's Government will make representations to the Government of the French Republic with a view to securing the exemption of English china clay from the import quota on china clay which it is proposing to introduce?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): It has not been considered that general representations against the restriction by quota of this or of other commodities would serve a useful purpose, but I should, of course, be ready to consider representations if the quotas proposed were such as to amount to discrimination against this country. I understand that the question of the amount of the quota is forming the subject of discussion between the English and French producers of china clay.

    ABNORMAL IMPORTATIONS DUTY (RUBBER SHOES).
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the North British Rubber Company, Limited, is closing down its rubber-shoe factory as a result of Japanese competition; and whether, in these circumstances, he is prepared to make an order in respect of rubber shoes under the Abnormal Importations (Customs Duties) Act?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have received a report of the closing of this factory. I cannot anticipate the contents of any future Order that may be made under the Abnormal Importations (Customs Duties) Act, but I may remind my hon. Friend that Parliament has entrusted the Import Duties Advisory Committee with
    460
    the task of making recommendations as to the charging of additional duties on such goods as are here in question.

  FOOD COUNCIL.
  Mr. JOELasked the President of the Board of Trade how often the Food Council have met since last October, giving the decisions which have been reached in the period and the name of the present chairman?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Since September the Board of Trade have had the responsibility for the prevention of the exploitation of the present financial situation in respect of foodstuffs under the Foodstuffs (Prevention of Exploitation) Act. The Food Council continue to exercise their usual functions and a special committee appointed by them is conducting inquiry into London bread prices. A chairman will shortly be named in succession to Sir Allan Powell who has vacated the post on his appointment to the Import Duties Advisory Committee.
  Mr. THORNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman refer the Food Council to the extraordinary jump in the price of tomatoes?

  LIBERIA.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that witnesses in Liberia who gave evidence before the League of Nations Commission which visited that country are being victimised as a result; and what action the League Council propose to take in the matter?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Eden): The allegations to which my hon. Friend refers were brought to the notice of the Liberian representative at the meeting of the Council of the League on the 6th February; they were also, in part, the cause of the representations made by His Majesty's Charge d'Affaires at Monrovia on the 7th March to which I referred in my reply to my hon. Friend on the 10th March. They have been denied by the Liberian. Government. My right hon. Friend will continue to communicate to the Liberia Committee of the Council of the League any information on this subject, which may reach him. I cannot, of course, foretell what further action the League Council may take.

  MAIDSTONE PRISON.
  Mr. CLARKE(for Captain HAROLD BALFOUR) asked the Home Secretary if his Department can now find use for the whole of Maidstone Prison; and if any request from the Kent County Council to be relieved of their undertaking to purchase this building will have the sympathetic consideration of the Home Office?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: So far as my Department is concerned the position remains as explained in the reply which I gave to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for the Chislehurst Division on the 3rd March. If any further representations are made by the Kent County Council, they would of course receive careful and sympathetic consideration.

  CONFERENCES, OTTAWA, LAUSANNE AND GENEVA (DELEGATIONS).
  Mr. AMERY(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister if he has anything to announce regarding the representation of His Majesty's Government at the Conferences of Lausanne and Ottawa?
  The PRIME MINISTER: His Majesty's Government have to be represented practically simultaneously at three most important conferences this summer—the Disarmament Conference at Geneva, the Conference at Lausanne opening in June, and the Imperial Economic Conference at Ottawa beginning in July. The House will appreciate the difficulties of securing for these conferences the attendance of Ministers whose Departments are concerned in the business to be done together with others who would obviously be of the greatest assistance; and any announcement I can now make must depend upon what imperative claims are made upon Ministers.
  The selection for Geneva is known. To Lausanne will go:
  Myself,
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs,
  The President of the Board of Trade,
  and should it be found to be advisable and possible the services of one or other of the following Ministers will be enlisted:
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department,
  The Secretary of State for India,
  The Minister of Health,
  and a representative of the Dominions Office.
  The Ottawa representation will be:
  The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs,
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies, The President of the Board of Trade, a representative of the Ministry of Agriculture,
  and, subject to the conditions already mentioned, the Lord President of the Council, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Secretary of State for War.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that the Minister of Labour is left out?
  The PRIME MINISTER: That enables me to say that we shall be able to use the services of the Minister of Labour in a miscellaneous way during the absence' of his colleagues.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Is not the truth this, that the kindly temperament of the Minister of Labour has saved him from quarrelling in the Cabinet for a place?
  The PRIME MINISTER: May I say in order to allay apprehension and reports that there was never even the shadow of a quarrel in the Cabinet on this matter.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Like the secret meetings of the Labour party.
  Mr. HANNON: May I ask whether, in view of the profound importance to the future of the Empire of the conference at Ottawa, the Prime Minister will consider the desirability, if at all possible, of sending the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
  HON. MEMBERS: He is going.

  CHINA AND JAPAN.
  Mr. LANSBURY(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now inform the House as to the steps which have been taken at Shanghai to carry out the proposals contained in the recommendations of the League of Nations?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir John Simon): The House is aware that on the 11th of March the special Assembly of the League of Nations adopted without dissent a resolution which, besides laying down the principles which must govern the attitude of the League of Nations to the Far Eastern dispute, set up a committee of 19 members, presided over by M. Hymans, the President of the Assembly, to act on behalf of and under the supervision of the Assembly in the matter. The first step, of course, is to endeavour to make completely effective the cessation of hostilities at Shanghai. The reports which have been received indicate that, apart from a little skirmishing which has practically, if not entirely, ceased, the cessation of hostilities has, in effect, been achieved.
  As regards the negotiations which were contemplated as the next step, the Assembly Committee met yesterday, and I understand that it had before it the information that negotiations for this purpose were in actual progress at Shanghai. The Chinese and Japanese representatives there have been meeting during the last day or two, on the invitation of Sir Miles Lampson, with him and the representatives of Italy, France and the United States. My information is that these conversations made some hopeful progress, though they have also indicated some difficulties. The Assembly Committee is meeting again, I believe, to-day, and I sincerely hope that, with the help of the good offices of the representatives of the four Powers a definite result may be achieved and announced very shortly. At the moment, however, it is impossible to speak with complete confidence as to this, and I am sure that the House will agree that it would be very undesirable to prejudice the chance of final agreement by a further statement to-day on points of controversy.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. LANSBURY: Will the Prime Minister kindly tell us the business for next week?
The PRIME MINISTER: Monday, the conclusion of the Committee stage of the Wheat Bill.
464
Tuesday: The Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill, when I understand the subjects to be raised will be Shanghai and Manchuria, together with the Disarmament Conference at Geneva.
Wednesday: The remaining stages of the Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill, and I understand that the first question to be raised is unemployment.
Thursday: The Motion for the Easter Adjournment until 5th April.
On any day, if there is time, other Orders will be taken, including the Isle of Man (Customs) Bill and the Tanganyika and British Honduras Loans Bill, which it is necessary to pass into law before we adjourn. I shall propose that the House shall meet on Thursday at Eleven o'clock so as to rise in the afternoon.
Mr. BUCHANAN: May I ask whether the Prime Minister has considered the question of rents, and how it is to be dealt with?
The PRIME MINISTER: I am not yet in a position to make a statement in regard to that matter. There are several Bills with which we have to deal, and I cannot say yet when we shall be able to deal with the question of rent.
Mr. LANSBURY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what business will be taken on the day when the House resumes after the Easter Adjournment?
The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot say at the moment, but, if the right hon. Gentleman will put a question to me at the beginning of next week, I may be able to give him an answer.
Mr. LANSBURY: Does the Prime Minister propose to ask the. House to sit late to-night?
The PRIME MINISTER: No. We have made quite good progress with the Wheat Bill, and, if the same rate is continued to-day, I do not propose to ask the House to sit late.
Motion made, and Question put:
"That the Proceedings on the Wheat Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply, and be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 311; Noes, 39.

Division No. 115.]

AYES.

[3.28 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'ndsw'th)

Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

Loder, Captain J. de Vere

Albery, Irving James

Everard, W. Lindsay

Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nhd.)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Mabane, William

Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

Flint, Abraham John

MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

McConnell, Sir Joseph

Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

Fox, Sir Gifford

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Aske, Sir Robert William

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Fredrick Wolfe

Ganzoni, Sir John

McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Gibson, Charles Granville

McKeag, William

Atholl, Duchess of

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

McKie, John Hamilton

Atkinson, Cyril

Glossop, C. W. H.

Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gluckstein, Louis Halle

McLean, Major Alan

Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Goff, Sir Park

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

Goldie, Noel B.

Maitland, Adam

Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Bernays, Robert

Graves, Marjorie

Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Martin, Thomas B.

Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

Blaker, Sir Reginald

Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

Blindell, James

Grimston, R. V.

Millar, Sir James Duncan

Bossom, A. C.

Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

Boulton, W. W.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

Guy, J. C. Morrison

Milne, John Sydney Wardlaw-

Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Bracken, Brendan

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Mitcheson, G. G.

Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Ztl'nd)

Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

Briant, Frank

Hanley, Dennis A.

Moreing, Adrian C.

Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

Broadbent, Colonel John

Harris, Sir Percy

Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Hartington, Marquess of

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Hartland, George A.

Muirhead, Major A. J.

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle)

Munro, Patrick

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks.,Newb'y)

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

Browne, Captain A. C.

Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd)

Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

Cadogan, Hon. Edward

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley)

Holdsworth, Herbert

Normand, Wilfrid Guild

Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

Hope, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston)

North, Captain Edward T.

Carver, Major William H.

Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

Nunn, William

Castle Stewart, Earl

Hopkinson, Austin

O'Connor, Terence James

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hornby, Frank

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

Cayzor, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

Howard, Tom Forrest

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

Palmer, Francis Noel

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgbaston)

Hume, Sir George Hopwood

Pearson, William G.

Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

Perkins, Walter R. D.

Chotzner, Alfred James

Hurd, Percy A.

Petherick, M.

Christie, James Archibald

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Peto, Sir Basil E.(Devon, Barnstaple)

Clarke, Frank

Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Iveagh, Countess of

Pickering, Ernest H.

Colman, N. C. D.

Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C)

Pike, Cecil F.

Conant, R. J. E.

James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

Cook, Thomas A.

Janner, Barnett

Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

Cooke, Douglas

Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

Cooper, A. Duff

Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

Copeland, Ida

Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)

Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

Cowan, D. M.

Ker, J. Campbell

Ramsden, E.

Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

Kerr, Hamilton W.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

Kimball, Lawrence

Rea, Walter Russell

Cross, R, H.

Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

Crossley, A. C.

Knight, Holford

Reid, David D. (County Down)

Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

Knox. Sir Alfred

Reid, William Allan (Derby)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

Reynolds, Col. Sir James Philip

Davison, Sir William Henry

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

Dickie, John P.

Law, Sir Alfred

Robinson, John Roland

Donner, P. W.

Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.)

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Drewe, Cedric

Leckie, J. A.

Ropner, Colonel L.

Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Rosbotham, S. T.

Duggan, Hubert John

Lees-Jones, John

Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

Leigh, Sir John

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Eden, Robert Anthony

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Runge, Norah Cecil

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Ednam, Viscount

Levy, Thomas

Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

Elmley, Viscount

Lewis, Oswald

Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

Lloyd, Geoffrey

Salmon, Major Isidore

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. Gr'n)

Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

466

467

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Stones, James

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

Storey, Samuel

Watt, Captain George Steven H.

Savery, Samuel Servington

Stourton, Hon. John J.

Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

Scone, Lord

Strickland, Captain W. F.

Wells, Sydney Richard

Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Dothwell)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Weymouth, Viscount

Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

White, Henry Graham

Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

Summersby, Charles H.

Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

Skelton, Archibald Noel

Sutcliffe, Harold

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

Tate, Mavis Constance

Williams. Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)

Wills, Wilfrid D.

Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Templeton, William P.

Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

Smithers, Waldron

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

Withers, Sir John James

Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

Soper, Richard

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Womersley, Walter James

Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

Touche, Gordon Cosmo

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

Train, John

Worthington, Dr. John V.

Spencer, Captain Richard A.

Tryon, Rt. Hon, George Clement

Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

Sir George Penny and Captain

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

Austin Hudson.

NOES.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Batey, Joseph

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Parkinson, John Allen

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

Grundy, Thomas W.

Price, Gabriel

Buchanan, George

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Cape, Thomas

Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Thorne, William James

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Hirst, George Henry

Tinker, John Joseph

Cripps, Sir Stafford

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Daggar, George

Kirkwood, David

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lawson, John James

Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

Edwards, Charles

Leonard, William

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Logan, David Gilbert

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

Lunn, William

Mr. Groves and Mr. John.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Financial Emergency Enactments (Continuance) Bill,
Sea Fisheries Provisional Order Bill, without Amendment.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  WHEAT BILL.
  Further considered in Committee [Progress, 16th March].
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

  WHEAT BILL.

    CLAUSE 3.—(Quota payments by millers and importers.)
    Sir DOUGLAS NEWTON: I beg to move, in page 5, line 40, after the word "that," to insert the words:
    "a miller shall not be liable to make quota payments in respect of any hundredweight of his output which consists only of wheat meal delivered by him for consumption without further manufacture as animal or poultry food, and."
    Sub-section (1) of this Clause lays it down that every miller and every importer of flour shall make a quota payment to the Wheat Commission. The Clause provides for exemption in favour of the miller who satisfies the Wheat Commission that his output will be used solely for animal or poultry food. This type of miller is called a provender miller, and he will be entitled to a provender miller's certificate to exempt him from liability to quota payments. The object of the Amendment is simply to give to the small miller who mills flour, and is therefore now called upon to pay a quota premium, the same exemption as is given to the provender miller in respect of wheat meal for feeding animals or poultry. Under the Bill the provender miller, very rightly and properly, is permitted to mill wheat meal solely used for the feeding of animals or poultry, without involving him in the necessity of paying quota premiums. The small miller does a very considerable amount of business and undertakes a very fair amount of this kind of trade, and if this or a similar Amendment is not incorporated in the Bill, there seems to me to be a grave risk that the small miller will lose this wheat meal trade which he now does, to his profit and to the profit of his customers, altogether, and that it will pass from him to the provender miller. This will not be either right or fair to the small miller.
    It may be urged by those who do not take this view that, if the Amendment were accepted, the Wheat Commission might be involved in the risk of loss of
    476
    quota payments, but I do not think that in practice there will be any such loss, because if the Wheat Commission are not satisfied as to the bona fides of the small miller, they will naturally enough not grant him the provender miller's certificate of exemption. I would urge this Amendment on the sympathy of the Minister on the ground of justice as between one type of miller and another. It will be for the small miller to prove his case to the satisfaction of the Wheat Commission and that the wheat meal for which he is claiming exemption is in fact milled and delivered for this exempted purpose, and the Commission can only grant exemption certificates if and when satisfactory proof has been given to them that the wheat meal in question is sold, delivered, and used for this purpose, and for this purpose only.
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir John Gilmour): I am in sympathy with the purpose of the Amendment, because it has never been the intention of the Government that the stock or poultry industry should be handicapped by the operation of this Bill. I observe that the Amendment is so drafted that it provides that the exemption from quota payments shall only apply to
    "wheat meal delivered … for consumption without further manufacture as animal or poultry food."
    With that also I am in agreement, but I would suggest to the Mover of the Amendment and those who support him that I might be allowed to look into the exact terms of the Amendment between now and the Report stage. I will undertake to accept the Amendment in principle, but I would like to be quite certain that the wording of it meets all the points. If my hon. Friend will accept that assurance, I will agree to bring it up on the Report stage myself.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: When considering further exemptions, which are quite sincerely moved by the hon. Member and his Friends, I hope the Government will not forget that the larger the number of exemptions they make, whether for cattle food or otherwise, the bigger will be the burden on the human consumers.
    Sir D. NEWTON: I much appreciate the attitude of the Minister, and beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 6, line 17, to leave out Subsection (3).
    Hon. Members opposite have frequently cast eyes at Members on these benches for wanting to give large concessions to foreigners and for wanting always to help every country but our own. [HON. MEMBERS "Hear, hear!"] Those cheers are very welcome, because on this occasion hon. Members opposite are not only conceding something to the foreigner, but doing it at the expense of the home consumer of food. This Sub-section means that all flour used for stores on ships, not only British ships, be it noticed, but foreign ships too, is to be exempt from quota payments. All flour used for export, for any purpose and to any country, is to be excused the quota payment, which implies, of course, a larger payment in the aggregate by the home consumer of bread. We have never claimed that the Bill is one that we can support in any form, but at least we think the right hon. Gentleman has missed his way in this respect, by subsidising not only British ships and shipowners but foreign ships and shipowners, by granting them relief from the quota payment, which increases the burden on the home consumer. If this quota payment has to be made by consumers of bread in this country, at least we ought not to exempt foreigners, whether shipowners or ordinary domestic consumers, and in order to get some sort of equity fur the British consumer of bread, we ask the right hon. Gentleman and the ultrapatriotic party for once to think about their own country and its people.
    4.0 p.m.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Repayments of this character, of course, are usually made upon goods on which Customs and Excise duties are levied, and I think it is clear that it would not be proper that we should deny to British millers the possibility of competing abroad for the sale of flour, and depart from what is the general practice. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken talked about this trade being carried out in foreign ships by foreign shipowners. I do not know on what ground that assumption was made. However, the general principle remains, and, in the circumstances, I cannot make an exception in this case.
    Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has really met the point. As I understand, a large quantity of this flour will be exported in the sense that it will be used as ships' stores. It is not a question of putting it on board ship for the purpose of using it as ships' stores. A very large quantity of flour which goes into the stores of foreign ships will have to he subsidised by the home consumer, because instead of bearing its share of the payment as it should do, it will bear no share, and, therefore, will increase the share which has got to be borne by the home consumer. It is really an infraction of the whole of the policy for which the right hon. Gentleman and his party are responsible to say that in this case not only is the foreigner not to have any tax put upon his flour, but he is actually to have a subsidy or benefit given to him for coming to this country to buy flour.
    I really do not think that anything the right hon. Gentleman has said so far has given us any satisfactory explanation as to why this subsidy should not be paid by owners of ships or foreigners just as it is paid by any other consumer. It is not analogous to ordinary articles paying import duty. This is not a case of import duty, but a special form of subsidy paid by the consumer in this country. It is not a question of goods paying a tax on coming into the country and then having relief from the tax on going out of the country, so that they can be treated as never having passed through the country. This is a tax which originates in the country by way of a subsidy from the consumer, and there does not seem any reason why that tax should not be paid by people who consume the flour on the high seas in a British or foreign ship just as much as by those who consume it in a house in London. We do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has given any reason for a differentiation between the burden borne by people who consume the flour on land and those who consume it at sea.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'has' in line 20, stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 279; Noes, 43.

    Division No. 116.]

    AYES.

    [4.4 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Millar, Sir James Duncan

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Albery, Irving James

    Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

    Milne, John Sydney Wardlaw-

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

    Goff, Sir Park

    Mitchell. Harold P (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Goldie, Noel B.

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe

    Graves, Marjorie

    Muirhead, Major A. J.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Munro, Patrick

    Atkinson, Cyril

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Grimston, R. V.

    Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    North, Captain Edward T.

    Bernays, Robert

    Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Ztl'nd)

    Nunn, William

    Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

    Hanley, Dennis A.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Harris, Sir Percy

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Bird, Sir Robert B.(Wolverh'pton W.)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Blindell, James

    Hartland, George A.

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Bossom, A. C.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Pearson, William G.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd)

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Petherick, M.

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Hope, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston)

    Pickering. Ernest H.

    Briant, Frank

    Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Hornby, Frank

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Buchan, John

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Ramsden, E.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley)

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

    James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James Philip

    Carver, Major William H.

    Janner, Barnett

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Castle Stewart, Earl

    Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Robinson, John Roland

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgbaston)

    Kimball, Lawrence

    Rosbotham, S. T.

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Chotzner, Alfred James

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Clarke, Frank

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

    Russell. Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Salmon, Major Isidore

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Leckie, J. A.

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Cooke, Douglas

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Copeland, Ida

    Lees-Jones, John

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Cowan, D. M.

    Leigh, Sir John

    Scone, Lord

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Cross, R. H.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Levy, Thomas

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Lewis, Oswald

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G.(Wd. Gr'n)

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Dickie, John P.

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Donner, P. W.

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Smithers, Waldron

    Drewe, Cedric

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Mabane, William

    Soper, Richard

    Eden, Robert Anthony

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Edge, Sir William

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    McLean, Major Alan

    Stones, James

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Storey, Samuel

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Flint, Abraham John

    Maitland, Adam

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    480

    481

    Templeton, William P.

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Withers, Sir John James

    Thomas, James P. L. (Herelord)

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Womersley, Walter James

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

    Thornton, Sir Frederick Charles

    Weymouth, Viscount

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    Wragg, Herbert

    Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Train, John

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

    Sir George Penny and Major

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    George Davies.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Batey, Joseph

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Brown, C. w. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Narmanton)

    Morris, Rhys Hopkin (Cardigan)

    Buchanan, George

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Cape, Thomas

    Hirst, George Henry

    Price, Gabriel

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Thorne, William James

    Daggar, George

    Kirkwood, David

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lawson, John James

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Edwards, Charles

    Leonard, William

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Lunn, William

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Duncan Graham and Mr. John.

    The CHAIRMAN: Mr. David Reid!
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Are we to understand that the next two Amendments will be discussed together?
    The CHAIRMAN: The Amendment which I have just called—in page 6, line 20, after the second word "flour," to insert the words "or bread baked therefrom"—is a selected Amendment, and is more or less in principle the same as the next one—in page 6, line 20, to leave out the word "has," and to insert instead thereof the words "or any articles manufactured from it have." I do not propose to take that Amendment, but in the discussion which takes place on the first Amendment questions can be raised which could be raised on the second Amendment.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Perhaps you will allow a Division on the second Amendment without discussion, because it does raise another matter, namely, the question of biscuits, which is not covered by the first Amendment.
    The CHAIRMAN: My final decision must await the fate of the Amendment I have just called, but it may be that I shall think it proper to allow a Division on the next Amendment, in which case I will do so.
    Mr. DAVID REID: I beg to move, in page 6, line 20, after the second word "flour," to insert the words "or bread baked therefrom."
    482
    The object of the Sub-section which we discussed on the last Amendment is to allow a drawback in respect of any flour exported or shipped as stores. The object of this Amendment is to extend the relief payment to bread that is baked within the United Kingdom from flour that has paid the quota, and is exported. The question with regard to the position in Northern Ireland arises. In Ireland the local baker is almost extinct, and nearly all household bread is baked in large machine bakeries in the large towns, and the districts where it is sold are not confined by the border-line. There are large machine bakeries in Londonderry which distribute bread in parts of the Free State, to Donegal, Sligo, and other places, even going as far as Roscommon. The bakers in Londonderry come in competition with the bakers in Dublin and other towns in the Free State. If the Clause is not amended in the way suggested, they will be at a disadvantage in competing with the Free State bakers, because they will have to use flour which has paid the quota levy, and the Free State baker will be free from that imposition and will have his flour cheaper. There seems to be nothing illogical, if you allow a drawback on flour which is exported, in extending that to bread which is exported.
    I can understand that if this exemption were extended to cover any large range of subjects, it might become administratively impossible, but we have limited

    483
    our Amendment simply to bread. In Northern Ireland no millable wheat is grown, and therefore all the flour that is used for making bread is milled either inside the province or has been brought in subjected to the quota levy. At the present time, returns are furnished to the Customs of the bread sent over the border, so that there already exists the necessary returns for the purpose of estimating what the payments should lie. It is easy enough to ascertain what is the average amount of flour contained in a loaf, or, to put it the other way, how many loaves go to a certain weight of flour. We have, therefore, all the three necessary items that help in the administration. This is an important question to us, because the number of 2-lb. loaves exported each year over the border is 13,000,000, and the trade is worth about £200,000 a year. If that trade goes, it will cause a great deal of unemployment. We are trying by this Amendment to conserve employment in the United Kingdom, and I hope, therefore, that we shall have the support of hon. Members opposite.
    Dr. SALTER: I want to direct my remarks to the next Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall)—in line 20, to leave out the word "has," and to insert instead thereof the words "or any articles manufactured from it have"—which I understand from your Ruling must be discussed now. I am anxious that the Minister should agree to this Amendment in order to safeguard our export trade in biscuits. This country has an important trade in biscuits. In 1927, the total value of exports of that commodity amounted to £1,344,000. During the last two or three years the trade has dropped severely, principally owing to the general trade stringency throughout the world. Even so, last year we exported about £800,000 worth. That drop alone, I am informed by several big manufacturers, has resulted in putting out of employment between 2,000 and 3,000 people. If we lose the biscuit export trade, which we may unless the drawback is allowed, it will mean throwing out of work another 4,000 persons or more. Our biscuit manufacturers have to face extraordinarily fierce competition all over the world, our chief competitors being France, Germany, and
    484
    Switzerland, but, in spite of the fact that French and German biscuits are baked from flour which is heavily subsidised, we are able to hold our own in a considerable number of countries.
    I have eaten biscuits made in my own borough in every country in Europe, and other hon. Members have probably had the same experience. Last year I travelled 1,000 miles down the Volga, and on the Russian state boats no biscuits but English were suppled. Huntley and Palmer's, Carr's and Peek Frean's biscuits were on the same boat; there were no other biscuits at all. I am told that the competition with German-made biscuits, and to a less extent with Swiss-made biscuits, is so fierce that a difference of a farthing a lb. will decide whether our people get a contract with some native trader on the coast of Africa or elsewhere. I understand that the biscuit people feel that this levy will mean a serious handicap to them; in fact, it will mean, as far as some of our biscuits are concerned, that we shall be knocked out completely in the struggle. That fact will be reflected in a loss of employment to some 3,000 or 4,000 persons. In these circumstances, I hope that the Minister will see his way to accept the Amendment or some form of words suitable to him. The loss of the export biscuit trade would be a serious matter, and there can be no doubt that it will be gravely jeopardised unless some drawback is allowed.
    Mr. J. JONES: I am pleased to learn that we are discovering the imperfections of this Bill. Ireland is a very small country, but we are now being asked to give protection to one part of it against another part. We know that these tariffs are to be imposed by Northern Ireland—[HON. MEMBERS: "You are on the wrong Bill!"] But the object of the Amendment is to give the same protection to Northern Ireland as is being given to the farmers in Great Britain. That will be the inevitable result of the Amendment. Now that de Valera has the opportunity, you may find yourselves in great difficulties over these financial proposals. What does the hon. Member for Down (Mr. D. Reid) mean by his Amendment? Will it mean an increase in the price of the loaf? I appreciate that the hon. Member wants protection but what effect will it have on the workers in the South of Ireland? I know that the farmers want it; they think

    485
    they are going to live by taking in one another's washing, but they cannot do it. It will mean an increase in the cost of living to the great mass of people in Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. You have the people round your necks and in your power, and you want to force them down into worse conditions than they have been in before. This Amendment means that hon. Members opposite want to keep the barrier between North and South. They are trying to use this protectionist policy to prevent the two parts of Ireland joining again. They would come together if it were not for the political opinions and economic power of the people on the other side of the border. There ought to be no border. Ireland is one country and one people—[Interruption.] I know that you can laugh at me—
    The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps the hon. Member had better recollect the Rules of the House, and address his remarks to the Chair.
    4.30 p.m.
    Mr. JONES: I will address my remarks to the Chair, particularly on such an occasion as this. I appreciate all the kindness you show me, and I have every confidence in your good rulings and will accept all your decisions with good grace —although I am not much of a grace. The people trying to create a barrier between the north of Ireland and the south of Ireland are not what they say they are when they are on public platforms. Then they want to unite the Empire, they say the whole Empire ought to be one body, and they will do their best to help it to become one body, but when it comes to the case of Ireland they want to create divisions between Waterford and Dublin, between Dundalk and Tipperary.
    Mr. ROSS: Does not the south of Ireland want to go out of the Empire?
    Mr. JONES: The Free State does not want to go out. The Free State will come in to-morrow, if you like—in fact, the Free State has come in. Mr. De Valera is not the boss in Ireland now. There are nine Labour members there —[interruption.] Yes, just as there are Labour Members here, but those nine Labour members in southern Ireland have greater power than we have here.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am sorry the hon. Member should have been led astray from the Amendment by an interruption which was also irrelevant.
    Mr. JONES: I am used to interruptions and interrogations. I only want to say that the Labour party are going to save Britain over this question of Ireland, because we are not going to accept the policy laid down by certain elements in Ireland. We are going to stand by the Treaty, by the Constitution which was agreed upon by the representatives of Ireland in other days; and when the people have the right to decide they will give their verdict. All I got up to say—because I have no right to get up, but only to get down—is that I am very sorry to find an Irish Member of this House trying to create a barrier between the North and the South in Ireland—putting up barriers and tariffs against different, sections in a country which has a population less than that of London.
    Mr. ROSS: On a point of Order. May we all join in this general Irish Debate?
    The CHAIRMAN: No, certainly not.
    Mr. JONES: It is not an Irish Debate, but I want to raise the question as it affects us. Northern Ireland claims to be part of Great Britain, and it is, and I do not object to that claim. I would like to see the whole of the British Empire part of one great confraternity of peoples. I have never hidden my opinions on that subject. But when we come to a country with a population of less than 4,000,000, and find one-fourth of that country claiming to erect barriers against the other three-fourths I say it is not playing the game. One section of the people there are taking advantage of the Bill as against the rest, and that is simply asking for trouble. Before many months are over we shall have this matter debated in this House. We cannot get away from the results of the late election in Southern Ireland.
    The CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Member had better reserve that part of his speech for the future occasion to which he refers.
    Mr. JONES: I am always looking for futures, although I am not interested in the Stock Exchange. I say frankly that when people in the northern part of Ire-

    487
    land who trade across the border claim privileges as against the people on the other side of the border they are asking for trouble, and I hope the House of Commons will think twice before agreeing to give those privileges.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The hon. Member who moved this Amendment has raised the problem of the export of bread from Northern Ireland to the Irish Free State. It is a problem which has been brought to my notice,, and I say at once that I recognise that it is one of great importance to Northern Ireland. The value of that trade in the export of bread is something like £200,000 per annum, and it would appear that considerable damage may be done to that trade if no solution of the difficulty can be found. I can assure him that the Government have no desire to cause any injury to so important a trade in Northern Ireland. Hon. Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland will appreciate that in the matter of the quota they are in much the same position as the people in many parts of England, Wales and Scotland where very little wheat is grown. It is a question which requires very careful consideration, and I would like to consider the case of exported bread only and try to find suitable phraseology before the Report stage is reached to deal with this problem.
    The other matter brought up by the hon. Member for West Bermondsey (Dr. Salter), which is raised in a subsequent Amendment, presents quite another problem. He is asking that this concession should be extended to other products manufactured from flour. A very large number of products manufactured from flour are exported, including, in addition to bread, biscuits, meat pastes, sausages, bill-posting paste, dog-biscuits, poultry foods and pork pies. I understand the hon. Member for West Bermondsey is claiming this concession on behalf of the biscuit exporters, but the Amendment is drawn in very wide terms, and the Wheat Commission would be involved in a great deal of administrative work in checking the exports of articles containing flour and calculating the amount of quota payments due to be refunded in respect of flour contained in those articles. The main point for hon.
    488
    Members to have in mind when deciding this problem is whether, in fact, the disadvantage to the biscuit trade is really so serious as has been stated.
    It would be advantageous if I were to state a few of the facts about the export of biscuits. The average export of biscuits from the United Kingdom each year from 1926 to 1930 was 9,500 tons, of an average value of £1,175,000. That gives an average value of £123 per ton. If we assume that these biscuits contain on an average 75 per cent. of flour the cost of the flour in a ton of biscuits is, at the present time, somewhere between £6 and £7. With this raw material the biscuit maker manufactures a product which has been exported in recent years at the price of £123 per ton. It is obvious, therefore, that the cost of the flour is comparatively insignificant compared with the wholesale price of the biscuits. If a quota payment of 2s. 6d. per sack should be required from millers and importers of flour, the additional charge borne by the flour used by the biscuit makers would not amount to more than 15s. per ton of biscuits, only.6 per cent. of the export value of the biscuits. In the face of such facts I think it cannot be seriously maintained that the quota payment is going to prejudice the biscuit makers to any extent, and in these circumstances I shall be unable to accept the Amendment dealing with biscuits.
    Mr. GEORGE HALL: We are very much disappointed with the reply of the Minister. We cannot see that his offer to consider the position as far as bread exported from Northern Ireland is concerned is consistent with his decision about biscuits, having regard to the fact that the value of the bread exported from Northern Ireland is about £200,000 per annum and the value of the export trade in biscuits from this country has been well over £1,000,000 a year during the last four years. It is true that the quota payment would not increase the cost by any large amount, but we must remember that two-thirds of the biscuits exported are sent to foreign countries outside the Dominions and Colonies, and the slightest increase in price must have a considerable effect upon the trade in these days of very severe competition. We cannot see the consistency of the action he has taken, and we ask him to be as generous to the

    489
    biscuit exporters of this country as he is to the bread exporters of Northern Ireland. We do not say that we do not agree with the concession which has been granted to Northern Ireland, because we think it is a right and proper one, but we say that at the same time that he reconsiders the position as to the export of bread from Northern Ireland he ought to reconsider his attitude regarding the export of flour products from this country, especially biscuits. Otherwise, this legislation will have a serious effect upon all those engaged in the biscuit industry. I hope the Minister will decide that biscuits, in particular, shall receive this concession.
    Mr. D. REID: In view of what the Minister has said, for which I thank him, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
    Major HILLS Major HILLS rose—
    The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps I may remind the Committee that if an hon. Member insists on speaking after leave to withdraw an Amendment has been asked for, leave is refused. May I suggest to the Committee that they give leave to the hon. Member for Down (Mr. D. Reid) to withdraw this Amendment? I might then call the next Amendment, on which the discussion could be continued.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. G. HALL: I beg to move, in page 6, line 20, to leave out the word "has," and to insert instead thereof the words:
    "or any articles manufactured from it have."
    Major HILLS: I confess that I am rather impressed with the case made for biscuits. I do not expect or hope that the Minister can give any different opinion now, but I feel rather strongly that the proposal ought to be considered. There are two strong arguments in favour Of some extension. I do not say that we can go as far as the proposal of the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Dr. Salter), but the biscuit trade does seem to me to be in rather a special position. It is a very old-established British trade, British biscuits are known all over the world and the names of the makers are household words. I do not want to discourage a trade of that sort. I want to encourage
    490
    the export trade even in the case of exports of the comparatively small value of £1,000,000. I want to encourage all exports. Then there is the question of employment. The Minister knows that the biscuit trade is localised; it is not spread about all over the country. Huntley and Palmer's works are situated at Reading, and Carr's biscuit works are situated at Carlisle, and so any effect on employment would be centralised on a district and might fall with excessive severity on one particular part of the country. It is rather difficult to hold a line of argument which admits the justice of exported bread being given this rebate and exported biscuits being excluded. On all grounds I hope very much that my right hon. Friend the Minister will reconsider the matter before the Report stage.
    Sir PERCY HARRIS: There is one other aspect of the matter. All inquiries show that very little English wheat is used in the flour that is made into bread, but English flour is used in the making of biscuits. From the point of view of the English farmer, therefore, the very thing that should be helped is the English biscuit, especially as in times like these we want to stimulate the export trade. I hope that if the Minister cannot accept this Amendment now, he will give an undertaking to reconsider the whole position before the Report stage.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: We shall be willing, of course, to have this proposal limited to biscuits, and we say that, not because the biscuit trade particularly wants it, but because we are very anxious to do everything we can to foster the export trade of the country. The Minister's figures, which may seem small as regards the way in which this tax will fall on the biscuit maker, may also be looked at from another point of view. If the sum is so email is it worth the inconvenience of charging it on the biscuit maker? We are told that it represents 15s. a ton on the flour used in the making of the biscuits. It will mean only about £7,000 year. On those figures is it worth while risking the putting of this extra block on the export of biscuits? I ask the Minister at least to promise us that he will seriously consider the matter again before the Report stage.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I, of course, am always ready to look into what I admit are rather difficult technical problems. I should be wrong if I made the hon. and learned Gentleman think that I would take the course that he has suggested, but I will again look very carefully into the matter.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I am much obliged. We shall have an opportunity of bringing the matter up again if the right hon. Gentleman can do nothing. Meantime perhaps my hon. Friend will withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, in page 7, line 3, after the word "delivered," to insert the words:
    "(otherwise than by millers holding provender millers' certificates)."
    This Amendment rectifies an omission. It is intended to ensure that the Minister's estimate of the supply of flour is correctly based on the quantity that will be actually chargeable to payment, and will exclude the quantity that will not be so chargeable.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I wish to ask the Minister whether, in view of the promise which I think he made regarding wheat that is milled for 'food for animal purposes, this will not now have to be adapted to meet that fresh alteration.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I think that these words are essential.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I think the Minister ought to be reminded once again of the masterpiece of camouflage in Subsection (1). I want to draw attention to two particular phrases which no one can quite justify or understand. We think that the purpose in view could have been achieved by much simpler language. I was rather interested to hear the Minister promise an hon. Member that he would provide an explanatory statement to the farmers so that they could understand what he means by the Bill, and particularly by this Clause. On line 33 the Minister persists in preserving the term:
    "Quota of home-grown millable wheat."
    492
    That is a suggestion to the outside world that all bread will contain a proportion of home-grown wheat. But the old quota system is "dead and damned" apparently, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the other day of Free Trade. Why these words should be preserved is rather a mystery. We would like to know why the right hon. Gentleman did not come straight to the point and tell the industry and the nation exactly what he meant without using such words as these:
    "A sum equal to what would have been the price deficit in respect of the quota of home-grown millable wheat which would have been used in the production of that hundredweight."
    The right hon. Gentleman knows that scarcely a grain of home-grown wheat will be used in that hundredweight. In line 37 he uses the words:
    "For the cereal year in which that hundredweight was delivered had been used."
    Again he uses a term knowing full well that the home-grown Wheat would not be used in any part of the transaction. What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by Sub-sections (5) (6) and (7)? One Noble Lord said in another place some time ago that a certain Bill was, "legislation by reference gone mad." I think that these three Sub-sections are legislation by anticipation and estimation and prescription and calculation gone mad. If the right hon. Gentleman understands how it is all going to work out he has perhaps the clearest mind of any person resident in this or any other country. Sub-section (6) states:
    "Any order made under this section shall state the estimated price deficit., the anticipated supply of home-grown millable wheat, and the estimated supply of flour upon the basis of which the amount prescribed by the order is calculated."
    It seems to me that quite a number of prescriptions and calculations and anticipations are necessary if the Bill is to be workable at all. What the average farmer will think about these words when he picks up the Wheat Act in a few weeks time I really do not know. I am anticipating that as a result of Clause 3 there may be more work for bricklayers carpenters and building operatives generally, for I anticipate—it is my turn to anticipate now—that we shall have more madmen and that more facilities will have to be provided in asylums than ever

    493
    before. However, it is the right hon. Gentleman's choice of words, and we cannot congratulate him upon them. We would be happy if he would clarify our minds on the subject.
    The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): T. do not think that this Clause need concern the farmers very much, though I agree that the miller and the flour importer have to understand it. Reference has been
    made to the use of the word "quota." It is used here as the quota of the anticipated supply, of the 6,000,000 qrs. The calculation which has to be made will have to be made on the basis of the anticipated supply.
    Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 257; Noes, 46.

    Division No 117.]

    AYES.

    [5.1 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Drewe, Cedric

    Leckie, J. A.

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Lees-Jones, John

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

    Eden, Robert Anthony

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Lewis, Oswald

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Llewellin, Major John J.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Atkinson, Cyril

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Mabane, William

    Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Bernays, Robert

    Gibson, Charles Granville

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Belterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Borodale, Viscount

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    McLean, Major Alan

    Boulton, W. W.

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

    Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Goff, Sir Park

    Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Goldie, Noel B.

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Goodman. Colonel Albert W.

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Grattan-Doyle. Sir Nicholas

    Millar, Sir James Duncan

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Graves, Marjorie

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Milne, John Sydney Wardlaw-

    Brown. Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks.,Newb'y)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Muirhead, Major A. J.

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Munro, Patrick

    Caine, G. R. Hall-

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

    Campbell, Rear-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Hanley, Dennis A.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Carver, Major William H.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Castle Stewart, Earl

    Hartland, George A

    North, Captain Edward T.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle)

    Nunn, William

    Cayrer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (P'rtsm'th, S.)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Pearson, William G.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgbaston)

    Hope, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston)

    Peat, Charles U.

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

    Penny, Sir George

    Chotzner, Alfred James

    Hornby, Frank

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Christie, James Archibald

    Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Rober S.

    Petherick, M.

    Clarke, Frank

    Howard, Tom Forrest

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bilston)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    pike, Cecil F.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph {Dumfries)

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Colville, John

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Cooke, Douglas

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

    Ramsden, E.

    Cowan, D. M.

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Knight, Holford

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Davies. Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Knox. Sir Alfred

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James Philip

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Dickie, John P.

    Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

    Rosbotham, S. T.

    Donner, P. W.

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Ross, Ronald D.

    Doran, Edward

    Law, Richard K. (Hull. S.W.)

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Soper, Richard

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. C. (Westmorland)

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Stones, James

    Weymouth, Viscount

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Storey, Samuel

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Scone, Lord

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

    Selley, Harry R.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Templeton, William P.

    Withers, Sir John James

    Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Womersley, Walter James

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Wood. Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

    Wragg, Herbert

    Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine,C.)

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Train, John

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Smithers, Waldron

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

    and Lord Erskine.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Batey, Joseph

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Morris, Rhys Hopkin (Cardigan)

    Briant, Frank

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Parkinson. John Allen

    Buchanan, George

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Price, Gabriel

    Cape, Thomas

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Thorne, William James

    Cove, William G.

    Hirst, George Henry

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Daggar, George

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Kirkwood, David

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Edwards, Charles

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

    Lawson, John James

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Leonard, William

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Mr. Gordon Macdonald and Mr.

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Lunn, William

    John.

    CLAUSE 4.—(By-laws of the Wheat Commission.)
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN: I beg to move, in page 8, line 5, at the end, to insert the words:
    (b) for prescribing the form of the contract (in this section referred to as "the prescribed form of contract") between registered growers of home-grown millable wheat and purchasers of such wheat which shall be used in the case of all sales of such wheat, such contract to be in the form set forth in the Second Schedule to this Act subject to such modifications, additions, and omissions, not being inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, as the Wheat Commissioners may from time by by-law provide, and for the transmission to the Wheat Commission by the registered grower or the purchaser forthwith after the completion of any such contract or a true copy thereof.
    My hon. Friends and I who are putting forward this Amendment thought it was necessary to have some form of contract so that the farmer will understand exactly what he is doing when he is selling his wheat. It is important that the form of contract should be more or less uniform all over the country. I appreciate that there should be a certain amount of elasticity for which the Wheat
    496
    Commission should make by-laws, but at the same time both buyer and seller want to know that the same sort of contracts are being carried out in different parts of the country, and, if this Amendment is agreed to, farmers will be able to see from the form of contract that this is being done. The object of my proposal is to simplify the procedure. The form of contract would be in triplicate. The buyer would sign one copy and he would hand two copies to the seller. The procedure would be simplified, because the farmer, after signing his copy of the contract, would take the contract to his bank together with his certificate, on which the banker would be able to give him such advance as he might require. Paragraph (b) of Subsection (2) enables payments in advance to be made to registered growers, and the form of contract I am suggesting will make the procedure very much easier. Paragraph (g) of the same Sub-section requires registered growers to keep records and furnish returns. That would all be provided for in the contract. The form of contract I suggest would very much simplify the procedure from the

    497
    sellers' and the buyers' point of view. In this way all the records could be noted and they would be understood by the farmer. Something of the kind which I am suggesting would not only produce more uniformity, but it would very much simplify the transactions between buyer and seller.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I agree with the Mover of this Amendment that cases may arise in which something of this kind is required, but I think it is unwise to put it in a definite form such as is suggested, because this is just the kind of work which the Wheat Commission, with their technical experience and knowledge, will be best able to deal with if and when it is required. I am bound to say, further, that no representation on this point has reached me from either the growers or the purchasers of wheat in this country, but I think it is perhaps well that the matter has been ventilated. We shall take careful note of it, but I cannot accept the Amendment in the form in which it has bean moved.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: I am very much obliged to my right hon. Friend, and am glad to hear that he will be kind enough to consider the matter. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 8, line 6, after the word "enabling," to insert the words:
    "subject to recovery in whole or in part."
    The object of this Amendment will be clear to the right hon. Gentleman. It is that, if a payment has been made under Clause 4 (2, b), and that payment is proved later in the cereal year to be in excess of what the registered grower was entitled to receive, the right hon. Gentleman should be enabled to recover any overpayment that may have been made. I imagine that but for some oversight some such words will have been put into the Bill originally.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: As the hon. Gentleman has said, this Amendment is intended to provide for the possibility of the Wheat Commission making advances to registered growers during the cereal year of sums larger than the deficiency payment. That is quite a proper provision to make, but I am advised that it can be dealt with adequately in the by-laws of the Wheat
    498
    Commission, which, of course, would have to be made with the approval of the Minister. That is the reason why I have not put it into the Bill, and I think that in the circumstances the Amendment is really unnecessary.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Seeing that the Wheat Commission will consist of persons Who, after all, are interested in the deficiency payments, and so forth, would it not be preferable, instead of leaving the question to be dealt with by them in regulations which they themselves may make subsequently, even though they must be submitted to the right hon. Gentleman, to embody these four or five words in the Bill, so that there would be no uncertainty? Could the right hon. Gentleman, between now and Report, reconsider whether these words ought to be embodied in the Bill?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: It is clear that the Minister will have control over this matter. I am, of course, ready to look into the details between now and Report.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: In that case, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 8, line 7, after the word "to," to insert the word "individual."
    This Amendment only asks that individual growers may receive the interim payment referred to in Clause 4 (2, b). Arrangements are made for registered growers to receive a sum on account, and the Amendment is merely designed to permit each individual registered grower to receive any sum on account that may be available, following the regulations that have been made. I think the right hon. Gentleman will see the wisdom of accepting this Amendment, so that no complications may follow.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I really think that this Amendment is unnecessary. Under the Sub-section, no registered grower will be entitled to a payment in advance otherwise than in respect of wheat that has actually been sold by him, and he is the individual to whom the deficiency payment will become due. The Sub-section, clearly, does not enable the Wheat Commission to make advances to growers who

    499
    have not sold wheat which entitles them to the deficiency payment. In the circumstances, I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Amendment negatived.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, in page 8, line 25, after the word "wheat," to insert the words:
    "or of his agent."
    This Amendment is designed to meet the case of a buyer of wheat whose name is not known to the registered grower, because he has purchased his wheat through an agent. This would permit of the agent's name being stated on the wheat certificate, and enable a satisfactory trace to be kept of the transaction.
    Sir JOSEPH LAMB: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the term "agent" would include a co-operative society?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Yes, Sir.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The CHAIRMAN: Brigadier-General Clifton Brown.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: May I ask, Sir Dennis, whether you are not calling my Amendment, which precedes that of the hon. and gallant Member—In page 8, line 43, at the end, to insert the words:
    "and of the yield per acre of the land under wheat."
    We regard that Amendment as one of considerable importance.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am not selecting that Amendment.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: We should, of course, hesitate to disagree with your Ruling, but we regard this piece of information, which we propose that registered growers should be invited to keep, as vital, and we thought that perhaps, having that fact in mind, you might have deemed it advisable to select this Amendment. We think that this information would be invaluable to the committee that is likely to be set up under Clause 2 (2), when they come to review the economic conditions of the industry and matters relating thereto. Unless they have this information, we fear that they will be unable to carry out their duties.
    The CHAIRMAN: It would be unwise on my part to indicate the reasons why I did not select the hon. Member's Amendment, but, as the Committee has made very good progress, I shall be glad to allow the hon. Member to say why he considers that his Amendment should be selected. I will, therefore, call upon him to move it.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 8, line 43, at the end, to insert the words:
    "and of the yield per acre of the land under wheat."
    Under Clause 4 (2, g), records must be kept by registered growers, and when required they must furnish returns, of all wheat bought and sold by them, and of the price at which it is bought or sold. This Amendment proposes to provide that the record shall include, in addition, the yield per acre of the land under wheat. Our reason for thinking that this Amendment might be accepted is that, when the committee which is to be set up under Clause 2 (2) is invited to examine the economic conditions of the industry, with a view, it may be, to increasing the standard price, or decreasing the standard price, or leaving it at the same figure for a further period, the committee ought to be in a position to examine what has transpired during the period of three years with regard to the productivity of the wheat-growing areas.
    The explanatory Memorandum states that one of the objects of the Bill is to discourage the extension of wheat cultivation on land that is unsuitable for the crop. Unless the committee have certain information with regard to the yield per acre, we feel that they will be working more or less in the dark, and the Minister, when he is called upon to accept or reject any recommendation of the committee, will also be in doubt as to whether there has been an extension of wheat growing on unsuitable land. If registered growers are invited to provide information as to the yield per acre of land under wheat, the committee, having this information, would be in a position to recommend either an alteration or a continuance of the standard price. For these reasons we think that this Amendment might very well be accepted.
    5.30 p.m.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's anxiety that the fullest

    501
    records shall be kept, but it is inadvisable to be too definite about this in the Bill. Of course, these paragraphs indicate the minimum of records which must be kept in order that the Wheat Commission shall have at its disposal all the information necessary to carry out its statutory duties, but it is unnecessary to put in a great many details. The Wheat Commission will seek from registered growers from time to time, no doubt, a great variety of information, and it is very undesirable that we should be too definite in attempting to limit them. I appreciate that it is desirable that there should be a record kept, and I think there can be no doubt that, in fact, that record will be kept.
    Mr. PRICE: I do not think we are entirely satisfied with the Minister's reply. We understood that this was a scheme that was to operate for a given period, after which the country would be in a position to make a definite examination of its effects. After the discussion on the previous Clause, it is imperative that this detailed information should be assured so that at the end of the period the country can form a judgment an to the future of wheat growing. Eminent agriculturists in the House, apart from a number of us who have given some consideration to the matter, have definitely come to the conclusion that wheat growing, except for our own use for stock feeding, is a thing of the past. The country is being called upon to give nearly £6,000,000 per annum, and we ought to know at the end of the period what purpose it has served and whether certain wheat growing districts can continue with any success or not. This money is going to be found by very poor people, and the country has a right to know at the end of the period what has happened in every particular detail. The Minister does not deny that all the information that we can get ought to be given. Then why not insert these few words, so that the country would, at the end of the three years, be in possession of the whole of the facts. Without the information we shall be unable to judge as to the possibility of growing wheat here and discontinuing it there, and I think the Amendment ought to be accepted.
    Sir D, NEWTON: I hope and believe that, under the terms of this Clause,
    502
    the Wheat Commission will be vested with all the necessary and proper powers to discharge their duties and, therefore, I support the Minister in his opposition to the Amendment. It would be a great mistake to overload the Bill with precise details as to the manner in which the Wheat Commission shall carry out its functions and, the more machinery we incorporate in the Bill, the greater will be the cost of its working. Moreover, the practical value of the information to be obtained will be almost negligible. On these grounds, I hope the Amendment will be withdrawn.
    Sir J. LAMB: There is another reason that I should like to give. This would undoubtedly necessitate the appointment of a good many inspectors.
    Whereupon, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod being come with a Message, the CHAIRMAN left the Chair.
    Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.

    ROYAL ASSENT.
    Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
    The House went; and, having re turned—
    Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

    1. Merchant Shipping (Safety and Load Line Conventions) Act, 1932.

    2. Veterinary Surgeons (Irish Free State Agreement) Act, 1932.

    3. Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932.

    4. Destructive Imported Animals Act, 1932.

    5. Financial Emergency Enactments (Continuance) Act, 1932.

    6. Sea Fisheries (Swansea) Order Confirmation Act, 1932.

    7. Worksop Corporation Act, 1932.

  WHEAT BILL.
  Again considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
  Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  Sir J. LAMB: I was saying before the proceedings were interrupted that I wished to call the attention of the Com-

  503
  mittee to the fact that if the Minister accepted the Amendment it would entail the appointment of a considerable number of inspectors. Wheat is not always grown to the full extent of a field. Often some portion of a field is sown with wheat and, being a production area, it would necessitate either a considerable amount of surveying or a guess as to the acreage. Consequently, the information might be entirely inaccurate or unreliable. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will not accept the Amendment.
  Mr. DAVID GRENFELL: We cannot appreciate the reluctance of the Minister to accept the Amendment which we propose. We are asking for what appears to be a very natural provision. We propose that the records should be complete records. We understand why hon. Gentlemen opposite claim with some justice that they represent the farmers. They are unwilling to give information, except such information as will enable the farmers to get the payments due under the Measure. The Minister is responsible for much more than that.
  Sir J. LAMB: They are unwilling to give information which might not be accurate.
  Mr. GRENFELL: It is strange if the farmer himself cannot give accurate information about his own business. We suggest that the Minister should be empowered to carry out the duties imposed upon him. Under Clause 2 the Minister has to have regard to general economic conditions and conditions affecting the agricultural industry in considering the desirability of making any alteration in the standard price. If the Minister has to have such a responsibility he should have full information. One of the most important factors regarding the standard price is the quantity of wheat grown per acre. I have always had in mind, in estimating the merits of the Bill, the possible subsidy to be paid per acre of land and not the quantity of wheat. The Minister will not be able to find out what is the fair standard price unless he knows from time to time the average quantity of wheat grown upon an average acre of land. That information will not be forthcoming unless we give powers in regard to this matter. The Wheat Commission
  504
  is to have power to make by-laws, one of which is that a record is required to be kept of certain details of agriculture in this regard. We do not want to know what the farmer does with his other crops or what he does with regard to stock raising, but so long as public money is being dispensed and governmental machinery used in apportioning that money we ought to have the fullest possible knowledge about the industry which is to be subsidised under the Measure.
  There are two or three other things which the Minister has to ascertain during the cereal year. He has to have a kind of stocktaking every year. He is to be given the responsibility of finding out the anticipated supply. Can a Minister, in spite of all the information which is available to him, estimate the supply of wheat in any given year unless he has before him a record of the average yield of wheat per acre year after year in every area and indeed on every farm? If the Minister does not know whether the yield per acre is 35 bushels or 30 bushels, how can he work out his anticipated supply? We think that the Minister and the Wheat Commission will be very much handicapped in the responsibilities which they have to assume. I appeal to those who claim to represent the farmers not to let us have any more hush-hush about agriculture. Let us have the fullest possible publicity and know what the industry is doing. If some hon. Members believe that the industry will improve its methods and be more efficient in production, the country will be very pleased, for the country has a right to know whether more effective results are being produced. We cannot get that knowledge unless the yield per acre year after year is provided and the record is published. We are anxious to have the machinery work as smoothly and as effectively as possible. We believe that the Amendment will improve the effectiveness of the Measure, and we hope that now the Minister will agree that it is a reasonable Amendment and one which is necessary if this particular part of the Bill is to achieve its purpose.
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I think that there is a slight confusion of thought in what is aimed at here. Certainly, I am satisfied that as far as the Wheat Commission is concerned the records which the Wheat

  505
  Commission should have will embrace all those circumstances and a knowledge of all the circumstances necessary for the carrying out of the duties of the Wheat Commission as such. On the other hand, some hon. Members have not spoken of that problem, but of the question as to what steps should be taken to get information as to the progress of cultivation, of mechanical equipment, the quantities of manures and so on. The Wheat Commission is really not the proper body to do that work. They will have their hands full enough with the statutory duties imposed upon them for the carrying out of the particular purposes of the Measure. But the further surveying which I agree with hon. Gentlemen in every part of the Committee is desirable for a complete knowledge dealing with the problem of the future ought to be
  done by other means. We have already, of course, a very complete return coming in from agricultural holdings, but I would say that we have had, for instance, and it will be continued, a very effective farm survey started under the auspices of the Cambridge School of Agriculture, which is staffed with experts competent to analyse and to examine the farm records so obtained. That is really, as I understand the position, what hon. Gentlemen opposite are anxious to obtain. That work is being done, and it will be continued, and the information obtained will be available to the House and to the Minister.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 40; Noes, 293.

  Division No. 118.]

  AYES.

  [5.59 p.m.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

  Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Parkinson, John Allen

  Batey, Joseph

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Price, Gabriel

  Briant, Frank

  Hail, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Buchanan, George

  Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Thorne, William James

  Cape, Thomas

  Hirst, George Henry

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  John, William

  Wellhead, Richard C.

  Cove, William G.

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Cripps, Sir Stafford

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

  Daggar, George

  Kirkwood, David

  Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

  Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon, George

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lawson, John James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Edwards, Charles

  Leonard, William

  Mr. Cordon Macdonald and Mr.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Mr. Groves.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Lunn, William

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Brocklebank, C. E, R.

  Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

  Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd.,Hexham)

  Cowan, D. M.

  Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

  Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks.,Newb'y)

  Craven-Ellis, William

  Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Browne, Captain A. C.

  Crossley, A. C.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Buchan, John

  Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

  Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

  Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

  Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

  Davison, Sir William Henry

  Aske, Sir Robert William

  Cadogan, Hon. Edward

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

  Caine, G. R. Hall.

  Dickie, John P.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

  Donner, P. W.

  Atkinson, Cyril

  Campbell, Rear-Admiral G. (Burnley)

  Doran, Edward

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Caporn, Arthur Cecil

  Drewe, Cedric

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Carver, Major William H.

  Ouggan, Hubert John

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Eales, John Frederick

  Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

  Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

  Eastwood, John Francis

  Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.)

  Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

  Eden, Robert Anthony

  Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn)

  Chalmers, John Rutherford

  Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgbaston)

  Elmley, Viscount

  Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton)

  Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

  Emmott, Charles E. G, C.

  Bird, Sir Robert B. (Wolverh'pton W.)

  Choriton, Alan Ernest Leofric

  Emry-Evans, P. V.

  Blindell, James

  Chotzner, Alfred James

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Boothby, Robert John Graham

  Christie, James Archibald

  Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

  Borodale, Viscount

  Clarke, Frank

  Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

  Bossom, A. C.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Boulton, W. W.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

  Colville, John

  Fermoy, Lord

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Conant, R. J. E.

  Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Cook, Thomas A.

  Fox, Sir Gifford

  Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Cooke, Douglas

  Fuller, Captain A. G.

  Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Copeland, Ida

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Gillett, Sir George Masterman

  Mabane, William

  Runge, Norah Cecil

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Glossop, C. W. H.

  Mac Donald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham)

  Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield,B'tside)

  Gluckstein, Louis Halle

  McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

  Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

  Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

  McKie, John Hamilton

  Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

  Golf, Sir Park

  McLean, Major Alan

  Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

  Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

  McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

  Savery, Samuel Servington

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

  Scone, Lord

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

  Maitland, Adam

  Selley, Harry R.

  Graves, Marjorie

  Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

  Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

  Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro',W.)

  Marsden, Commander Arthur

  Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)

  Grimston, R. V.

  Martin, Thomas B.

  Skelton, Archibald Noel

  Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

  Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

  Smiles, Lieut. -Col. Sir Walter D.

  Guy, J. C. Morrison

  Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Millar, Sir James Duncan

  Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine,C.)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Smithers, Waldron

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

  Somervell, Donald Bradley

  Harris, Sir Percy

  Mitcheson, G. G.

  Soper, Richard

  Hartland, George A.

  Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

  Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

  Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle)

  Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

  Spencer, Captain Richard A.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

  Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur p.

  Mullhead, Major A. J.

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

  Munro, Patrick

  Stones, James

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Storey, Samuel

  Holdsworth, Herbert

  Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

  Stourton, Hon. John J.

  Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

  Normand, Wilfrid Guild

  Strickland, Captain W. F.

  Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  North, Captain Edward T.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Howard, Tom Forrest

  Nunn, William

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.)

  O'Connor, Terence James

  Tate, Mavis Constance

  Hume, Sir George Hopwood

  O'Donovan, Dr. William James

  Templeton, William P.

  Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Ormiston, Thomas

  Thomas, James p. L. (Hereford)

  Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

  Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

  Pearson, William G.

  Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

  Iveagh, Countess of

  Peat, Charles U.

  Thorp, Linton Theodore

  Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C)

  Penny, Sir George

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)

  Perkins, Walter R. D.

  Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

  James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

  Petherick, M.

  Touche, Gordon Cosmo

  Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

  Peto, Sir Basil E.(Devon, Barnstaple)

  Train, John

  Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

  Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bilst'n)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

  Pike, Cecil F.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

  Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

  Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

  Kerr, Hamilton W.

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Kimball, Lawrence

  Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

  Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

  Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

  Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

  Watt, Captain George Steven H.

  Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

  Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

  Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Ramsden, E.

  Wells, Sydney Richard

  Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

  Ratcliffe, Arthur

  Weymouth, Viscount

  Law, Sir Alfred

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

  Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Rea, Walter Russell

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Leckie, J. A.

  Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

  Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Reid, David D. (County Down)

  Wills, Wilfrid D.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Reid, William Allan (Derby)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Levy, Thomas

  Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Lewis, Oswald

  Reynolds, Col. Sir James Philip

  Wise, Alfred R.

  Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

  Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

  Withers, Sir John James

  Llewellin, Major John J.

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

  Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

  Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

  Robinson, John Roland

  Worthington, Dr. John V.

  Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

  Rosbotham, S. T.

  Wragg, Herbert

  Loder, Captain J. de Vere

  Ross, Ronald D.

  Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

  Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

  Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

  Sir Victor Warrender and Mr.

  Womersley.

  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 9, line 28, at the end, to insert the words:
  "(m) for prescribing the standard form or forms of contract for the sale of wheat."
  To some extent the principle involved in this Amendment has already been discussed under a previous Amendment moved by the hon. and gallant Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Brown). In that Amendment my hon. and gallant Friend desired to insert the actual form
  508
  of contract in the Act, whereas this Amendment seeks merely to authorise the Wheat Commission to prescribe a standard form of contract. Although the same principle is involved, I suggest, with all respect, that my Amendment is better than that of my hon. and gallant, Friend.
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I am afraid that I cannot accept the Amendment. It is not really necessary, because in so far as action on the lines suggested may be

  509
  necessary for the purposes of the Act, it will be competent for the Commission under Clause 4 to make such by-laws as may be required. It is much better that the discretion should be left with the body which will have to deal with the matter, so that they can make them as and when they think best.
  Colonel Sir GEORGE COURTHOPE: I hope the Minister will reconsider his decision. I know that it is competent for the Wheat Commission to do as he suggests, but it is of great importance, and we certainly attach great importance to it, that there should be a simple standardised form, that the House should indicate in the Bill itself that desirability, and that they should include it specifically as one of the items upon which the Wheat Commission should make by-laws.
  Mr. GROVES: In view of the very cruel reply from the Minister, I may inform the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams) that if he presses the Amendment to a, Division we shall support him in the Lobby.
  Amendment negatived.
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne): In regard to the Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Brown)—in page 10, line 14, after the word "certificates" to insert the words:
  "and for the inspection of and report upon any wheat"—
  I should be glad to have an explanation, because as at present drafted I cannot understand it. As the hon. and gallant Member is not present, I will proceed to call the next Amendment.
  Sir S. CRIPPS: I beg to move, in page 10, line 14, to leave out from the word "certificates" to the end of line 16.
  The words in the two lines which I seek to leave out require registered growers in a particular area to defray the cost of special arrangements which may be made by means of local by-laws in order that certificates of a special character may be issued. Apparently Sub-section (4) is designed to deal with cases where the general by-laws made by the Wheat Commission in regard to the issue of wheat certificates are insufficient
  510
  "for securing that such certificates are issued only upon satisfactory proof of the facts required to be thereby certified."
  I have not entirely appreciated the intention of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to this Sub-section, unless it is that in some part of Wales it may be required that the by-laws should be issued in Welsh. If that be so, then it is grossly unfair that the Welsh farmers should have to pay for it. If it be part of the general scheme, and if, as we believe, this Bill is so complicated that nobody can understand it without some special by-laws, it is a little unfair that the farmer should have to pay if he cannot understand it. It does not make much difference to the consumer one way or the other, but if the machinery is so complicated that there must be special regulations issued in order that the procedure may be carried out, then the whole cost of these schemes should be pooled and made a charge upon the fund. Unless the Minister of Agriculture can explain the necessity for these words we think they should be deleted.
  Sir J. GILMOUR: This Sub-section is necessary where a local voluntary organisation is not forthcoming or is inadequate to furnish the necessary co-operation for the working of the scheme. In such a case, the Wheat Commission may find it necessary to send down an agent to set up some advisory body to investigate why things are not going smoothly, and the cost of that should fall upon the farmers in the district. It is right that this condition should be made. It can be avoided by the co-operation of farmers in the area. If, in fact, co-operation fails, or it becomes evident that improper use is being made of the provisions of the Bill in certain areas, then, obviously, the Wheat Commission will have to send down an inspector and set up a local committee. This matter has been discussed with the representatives of the Farmers' Union, and they have not objected to it. They agree that it is fair and reasonable. I hope it may never occur, or at any rate that it will only occur for a very short period. I hope the hon. and learned Member will not press the Amendment.
  Sir S. CRIPPS: I understand that this is a penal provision allowing the State,

  511
  through the Wheat Commission, to exercise some control over the farmers. I think we will approve of it.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Sir S. CRIPPS: I beg to move, in page 10, in line 21, after the word "Gazettes," to insert the words:
  "and in such other manner as the Wheat Commission may deem necessary for the information of all persons interested."
  This is an Amendment which, I am sure, the right hon. Gentleman will accept. It makes certain in a more satisfactory way the publication of the information which the farmer is to get. In nearly all cases of Bills of this kind, where information is to be conveyed to the public, provision is made not only for publication in the Gazettes, but in the local papers which circulate in the district where the scheme is to be put into force. That may not be advisable in this case, but we think that some indication should be given by some other method than by publication in the Gazettes. We think that the Wheat Commission should see that the information regarding their by-laws should get to the farmers who are intimately concerned and who may be penalised if they do not understand them. I am sure that the Minister will accept the suggestion that some form of publication other than the Gazettes should be made.
  Sir J. GILMOUR: The Wheat Commission will be able, and quite naturally will take steps, to bring their by-laws to the notice of all persons interested. The Amendment really does not add anything to their powers, but I am quite willing to accept it down to the word "necessary," leaving out the subsequent words.
  Sir S. CRIPPS: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. But surely the question is to bring it to "the information of all persons interested." I do not understand why he objects to those words. If he objects to all persons who are interested getting the information, for some reason or other, we will leave the words out and accept his suggestion.
  Earl WINTERTON: Will the Minister of Agriculture explain why he thinks it necessary to accept the Amendment down to the word "necessary," and
  512
  objects to the words "for the information of all persons interested"?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I think it should be left to the Wheat Commission to decide how far and in what respect and in what manner they should give this information. The words at the end of the Amendment might perhaps lead to great trouble.
  Earl WINTERTON: The right hon. Gentleman has not explained to the Committee why he is prepared to accept the words
  "in such other manner as the Wheat Commission may deem necessary,"
  and wishes to leave out the words
  "for the information of all persons interested."
  Sir J. GILMOUR: The phrase "all persons interested" is really very vague.
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think it would be better if the Minister of Agriculture moved an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to delete the words after the word "necessary."
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words, "for the information of all persons interested."
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.
  Proposed words, as amended, there inserted.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  Sir S. CRIPPS: There are one or two matters to which I want to draw the attention of the Minister before we part with this Clause. A number of suggestions were put down as Amendments to this Clause, but we have not had an opportunity of raising them because they have not been selected or have been out of order. This Clause sets up the major matters as to which the Wheat Commission shall make by-laws, and thereby it indicates the major powers and duties of the Wheat Commission. During the course of his Second Reading speech we were told by the right hon. Gentleman that there were two points of importance which had been agreed with the millers, first. that there should be no increase in the price of flour over and above the addition made necessary by the payment of the quota or subsidy, and, secondly, that the millers, as part of their bargain,

  513
  have undertaken to protect the farmers of this country by not exporting offal except where was an excessive seasonal supply, and then they were prepared to do it under some system of licensing. These two matters, we think, should find their place somewhere in the Bill, and it seems that Clause 4 is the place where they should appear. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will consider whether he can put actually into the words of this Clause these two undertakings on the part of the millers, which are of great importance.
  The Committee will appreciate the point that when a tax or subsidy of this sort is put upon the price of an article there is a great liability for the seller of these goods to add a little more, and, indeed, the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged this in his speech by saying with considerable pride that he had persuaded the millers in this case not to add a little more as was customary in matters of this kind. We congratulate the right hon. Gentleman in going so far in protecting the consumer, but we suggest that the consumer will be far happier to see it in black and white, and we are sure that it will help in the future administration of this Bill if it is in black and white. If the millers ever start to go back on their promise, and the right hon. Gentleman must assume that this is a possibility, although it is not very likely to happen, his position will be far stronger if the Wheat Commission have the power to say that nothing shall be added to the price of flour over and above the quota payment. That is what the millers have undertaken to do, and all we are asking is to have this undertaking in black and white. If the right hon. Gentleman has any trouble hereafter with some recalcitrant miller he can say that it is in the Act of Parliament itself.
  6.30 p.m.
  Then as regards the question of licensing the export of offal. That, clearly, is a duty which should fall on the Wheat Commission. They are the people charged with the control of the whole flour and milling position of this country. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that in order to strike a bargain the millers have agreed not to export wheat offal except under some sort of licensing system. He says that it is impossible for the Government to license them because that would bring us into some
  514
  danger in regard to certain commercial treaties with other countries, but we ask him to give the Wheat Commission power to set up such a licensing system. They are evidently the people who should deal with it. Unless this power is given expressly to the Wheat Commission, they cannot exercise any power of this sort. There are other matters which have been raised by the Amendments put down to this Clause. We believe that if the Wheat Commission is going to run the milling industry, as it will have to do by control and by-laws, that it should be given the very widest possible powers to get all the material information and to exercise all material control. In this case we have a great number of detailed matters set out so that the right hon. Gentleman cannot say that he would not like to add more detail. We have already got down to (1), which is about low enough for the right hon. Gentleman to go, and one or two more paragraphs would help to bring him out of that hole. We suggest, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman would be well advised to examine these proposals before the Report stage, particularly the two undertakings which he has got from the millers and to which we attach the greatest importance. Unless these are put into the Bill we fear that great trouble may be found hereafter in getting them complied with.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): I desire to reply to the two definite points upon which the hon. and learned Gentleman has concentrated. He said, first, that there is nothing in the Bill giving the Wheat Commission power to make bylaws to steady the price of flour. I think the answer to that point is that it would be extending the scope of the activities and functions of the Wheat Commission far beyond anything which would be contemplated in their ordinary work, to give them the duty of keeping down the price of flour in this country.
  Sir S. CRIPPS: I did not suggest that they should be able to keep down the price of flour but that they should be able to enforce the undertaking which has been given that the price of flour will not be above the world price by more than the subsidy.
  Mr. SKELTON: I am sorry if I put the hon. and learned Gentleman's point in rather too broad a fashion. Even to do what he suggests would put the Wheat Committee, with regard to the millers, in a position quite outside their ordinary functions. I cannot think that it would be wise to give the Wheat Commission the duty of controlling the price at which flour is offered by the millers. Further, I am sure nobody knows better than the hon. and learned Member that it is the constant practice, particularly with regard to arrangements in Finance Bills for agreements to be come to between the parties concerned which do not appear in the Bill, and experience has shown that these agreements are carried out with the utmost fidelity. Clearly this is such a case. With regard to the second point as to whether powers should be given to the Commission to make by-laws to prevent the exportation of offals, I am afraid a great deal of consideration would be needed before one could conclude that the hon. and learned Gentleman's suggestion of putting this duty on the Wheat Commission would get us out of the difficulty in relation to commercial treaties. To give the Commission such a power would undoubtedly require legislation. Whether we did it directly by the State, or whether we did it by putting the duty upon a subsidiary body, namely, the Wheat Commission, I do not think we should get out of the treaty difficulty. I do not imagine that the hon. and learned Gentleman himself is of the opinion that by making the Wheat Commission the responsible persons it would be possible to get out of the difficulty in regard to contravening commercial treaties.
  With regard to the more general observations of the hon. and learned Member, it is true that a good many suggestions which have been made in reference to the by-laws—suggestions of what they might or ought to contain—have not been discussed in Committee, but I am sure I can say on behalf of my right hon. Friend that those undiscussed Amendments will be looked at before the Report stage. I think the hon. and learned Gentleman himself will agree that for those responsible for the passage of this Bill it is essential not to burden the Wheat Commission with duties which are extraneous to their real function. Their
  516
  function, difficult as some of it may be made by the necessities of Parliamentary draftmanship, is clear and simple and is restricted to one perfectly practical object. I cannot think that it would be wise to take the opportunity of the establishment of this body to put upon their backs a number of functions with which logically they have no concern.
  Mr. ATTLEE: I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman has met the point. Whatever may be done in commercial life in regard to gentlemen's agreements, when it comes to an Act of Parliament I do not think it is satisfactory to rely upon something which is not in the Act of Parliament or on agreements between passing and fugitive Ministers and outside bodies. I think it is rather important that we should have these matters stated definitely in the Bill. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has said that what we have suggested does not come within the functions of the Wheat Commission. The function of the Commission is to collect money and that money is to be handed over to the farmers. The whole point is to see that in fact that money, the provision of which is going to involve the consumer in a charge, is not going into the pockets of the millers. It seems to me perfectly simple that the Wheat Commission should have the function of seeing that this scheme works in such a way as to carry out the declared intention, which is to extract certain money from the pockets of the consumer and place it in the pockets of the farmers. I do not see why the Commission should not have power to see that the money does not stick somewhere in the pockets of the millers.
  As to the other point raised by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, I am fairly well acquainted with the commercial treaties, and I agree that it may be, and probably is true that the Wheat Commission will be held to be so involved with the Government as to give rise to the difficulty which the hon. Gentleman anticipates in that respect. But is it not possible to do this through the Millers' Corporation? That is a matter of the internal organisation of trade. I do not think that the Millers' Corporation would be in the same position as the Wheat

  517
  Commission. In their case, after all, it would merely be giving power to a trade to regulate itself. I ask right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to look into this question and to see whether our suggestion on that point could not be carried out specifically as a, matter of the internal regulation of the trade through the Millers' Corporation. These two points require further consideration. When we are embarking on a new experiment of this kind, setting up an elaborate machinery and transferring sums from the public to private hands we ought to see that there is something more than a verbal agreement governing these matters.

  WHEAT BILL.

    CLAUSE 5.—(Provisions for securing payment of quota payments in respect of imported flour, and pre-entry of export flour.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: I wish to raise a question of administration on this Clause. Sub-section (1, a) provides that quota payments shall not be payable to any officer of Customs and Excise. That seems a little strange, but the explanation may lie in some international agreement. From the first part of this Sub-section it appears that payment has to be made to one officer of the State or of the Commission and that another officer of the State has to examine the receipt. There would appear to be a little unnecessary administration, and the possibility of some loss of money in that arrangement. Probably there is an adequate explanation but I think it ought to be stated.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: On this Clause I raise another question similar to that just mentioned by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams). As I understand Sub-section (1) no entry of any flour for home consumption or use shall be signed by any officer, except upon the surrender to him of a receipt in the prescribed form. Now the quota does not become payable under Clause 3 (2) in respect of imported wheat, until it has been entered, and the receipt, of course, should not he given until payment has been made. There, it seems to me, you have an impasse because the man cannot
    518
    enter it, until he has given the receipt but the payment is not due until the entry has been made. Thus you have to get the receipt before you make the payment but as the receipt is expressed in Sub-section (1, a) of this Clause to be conclusive evidence that the payment has been made, clearly, the receipt cannot be issued before payment has been made. No doubt there is an adequate explanation but I do not see how this arrangement is going to operate. There is a further question. Under Clause 3 (7) there is a, provision by which when an Order is changed, varying the amount of the quota, the new sum prescribed by the new Order becomes payable "when the payment accrues due." I do not quite understand under Sub-section (1) of this Clause at what moment "payment accrues due" unless it is upon entry. If the money is to be paid before the receipt is obtained, and the receipt handed over in order to effect entry, is the money due and payable at the date when the money is paid for the receipt, or at the date when the goods are actually entered? It may be that there will be different standards of quota payable on those two days. I should like some explanation of these points.
    Earl WINTERTON: I must confess that from a purely House of Commons point of view I am always concerned when a machinery Clause of an intricate character, like this, goes through without discussion. We constantly hear in the courts criticisms of the manner in which the House of Commons does its work, and, undoubtedly, during the last 25 years, as any lawyer will tell the Committee, there has been a great increase in the number of cases in which it has been found almost impossible to interpret some Act of Parliament. I make no criticisms of my right hon. Friend the Minister, but I suggest that either he, or preferably a Law Officer, if one is available, should explain these intricate machinery Clauses when, as happens in this case, no Amendments are put down to them. On the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," an explanation of such a Clause should be offered to the Committee. The points which have been raised, at any rate, call for an answer, and I have no doubt that the Minister will be able to give an answer, but I suppose the Clause would have gone through without discussion if they had not been raised.

    519
    In Sub-section (2) of the Clause, which deals with the fine to be imposed in the case of any exporter or shipper of flour for exportation as stores who fails to make a declaration, it says that if the entry is false in any particular he shall be liable to a penalty of £100. Am I not right in saying that it is usual in Acts of Parliament to put in the words "not exceeding"? By putting in the words "a penalty of £100"—and I would direct the attention of the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) to this point—does it not look like an invitation to the court to impose that penalty? It would be a monstrous state of affairs if, for instance, in the case of a small steamer going from a United Kingdom port to France, and having on board, as ship's stores, some biscuits, for example, not exceeding in value £10 or £15, a fine of £100 were imposed. Would it not be better to put in "not exceeding £100," if you want to have such a fine, which is, I suppose, desirable in the case of any serious failure to make an entry?
    I hope my right hon. Friend will take the opportunity, in replying—[Interruption.] Will my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works kindly speak a little less loudly? It is difficult, I know, because these matters have to be ascertained, shall I say, in the proper quarters, but may I make a suggestion to the Minister, that he should take the opportunity, when replying to this point, to give us a short exposition as to the general effect of this very important and intricate machinery Clause?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Why should an exporter of flour be fined at all? The only transaction that the exporter can perform is to export flour which previously has made a quota payment, and the maximum which he could receive would be the return of the original payment that had been made. Why should we render the exporter liable to any sort of fine at all?
    Lieut.-Colonel SANDEMAN ALLEN: I want to supplement one thing that my Noble Friend the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) said. If we do not insert the words "wilfully false" or "false in some material particular," any entry that is only incidentally and unintentionally false would be liable to the penalty.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I think there is something in what my Noble Friend the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) said, that these machinery Clauses ought to be carefully watched. This particular machinery Clause is not so much the work of the Ministry of Agriculture, but is a Clause put in by the Customs and Excise Department, who are familiar with the working of these matters, in order to make sure that this Bill, framed by the Ministry of Agriculture, is on all fours with the law and practice of the Customs and Excise Department, with this improvement, that whereas, to take the point raised by the Noble Lord and by the hon. and gallant Member for West Birkenhead (Lieut.-Colonel Sandeman Allen), very often there is mere legislation by reference, saying that the Customs Act of such and such a year shall apply, at any rate in printing this Bill, the particular Section of the Customs Consolidation Act is set out.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: No. It says "in lieu of."
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: It is the interpretation under that Customs Consolidation Act, and in order to make sure that this is on all fours with the practice under that Act. I understand that these words are, as regards the penalty of £100, quite definitely qualified by the practice of all Customs and Excise law, whereby, I am advised, the maximum penalty, and in fact all penalty, is frequently limited. I am satisfied, as to the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Birkenhead, that if it is not obviously wilful and culpable, there will not be a conviction. In fact, we all know that the £100 operates as a maximum.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: No.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: It does, and it may be remitted altogether, I am advised.
    Earl WINTERTON: Do I understand my right hon. Friend to say that it is the general practice in these Customs and Excise Acts to use the phrase "a penalty of £100," and not, as is usual in other Acts of Parliament, "a penalty not exceeding £100"?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I am assured of that by the representative of the Department. However, we will make quite

    521
    certain that that is so, the point having been brought up. As to the point raised by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams), the object of proviso (a) of Sub-section (1) is two-fold. It is, first, to make sure that payments which are continually being made in a Customs office, and which are destined for the Customs fund, and those which are destined for the wheat fund shall not get mixed up, and, secondly, to make it quite clear that the Customs authorities will not allow flour to enter unless the certificate is produced for their inspection. That is the right way to work this machinery, that the actual certificate should be produced for inspection and that then clearance should be given. As to the point raised by the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps), that, I am advised, is covered by the proviso in Sub-section (2) of Clause 4, on page 9, from lines 29 to 34 inclusive. I do not profess to be a brilliant draftsman myself, but it seems to me that that proviso covers the kind of points raised by the hon. and learned Member.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell me how?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I will look into it, but as I understood the point raised by the hon. and learned Member—I admit that it is complicated—it could be and is covered in the drafting of the Bill by the proviso that I have just mentioned, in Clause 4. He asked also as to when the payment for imported flour would be due. It is due upon entry. It may involve adjustments, and records, obviously, will have to be kept of the payments, and where an importer can show that he has paid too much, or if he has paid too little, the accounts can be adjusted. In the general trade of flour importing, as I understand, it is not as if this will be an isolated transaction. In very rare cases it might be an isolated transaction, but generally speaking it wilt be one of a continuous series of transactions, and a running account of them will he kept.
    If hon. Members still have any anxiety on any points in connection with machinery Clauses of this kind, if they will draw attention to them, the Government are most anxious to make sure that there are no new departures and that
    522
    this is in line with the ordinary law governing this kind of thing. It is our object to make no new changes or to introduce no new departures which affect what inevitably has grown up as the practice of the Customs and Excise Department in regard to a law that is either consolidated in the minds of the judges who administer the law or that is actually consolidated in a consolidating Statute. It is to bring the machinery of this Bill into line with the general law and to avoid any new departures that this kind of machinery Clause is introduced.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: We fully sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman in his very genuine attempt to explain this complicated Clause away. We are not able to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the clarity of the matter after his explanation, but that in no way affects the effort.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I do not suppose the hon. Member is a lawyer any more than I am.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: That is exactly why I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us why the exporter or shipper of any flour intended for exportation as stores shall duly enter the flour before export or shipment. The object of entering the flour is to secure repayment of a quota payment which has been previously paid, and if the exporter fails to enter the record, he does not receive that quota payment originally made, and not only so, but he is liable to a fine of £100. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us why it is that some munificent shipowner who wants to ship flour and is called upon to make an entry in order to receive a return of a sum of money, but who might gratuitously say, "I do not want to receive this money back," should then be rendered liable to a penalty of £100? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will instruct a non-lawyer exactly why that should be.
    Mr. CROOM-JOHNSON: I understand that the point raised by my Noble Friend the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) is to be reconsidered, and I intervene to point out that indeed it appears to need it. I have taken the trouble to get the Section of the Act of 1876 in order to compare what it is that we are substituting in

    523
    this Clause for the old Section in the Customs Consolidation Act. The language has been varied, and anybody who has had any experience of the courts will know that if you find a variation in language, the court is assumed to suppose that Parliament meant to vary the meaning of the words it uses, and has a different intention in the one case from the other. In the Act of 1876, in Section 139, the language used is:
    "the person who fails or neglects to make the entry or if the same be false in any particular shall forfeit the sum of one hundred pounds and such cask or package and the contents thereof shall also be forfeited."
    7.0 p.m.
    It may well be that, under that language, there may be left some discretion in the Customs authorities to say, "We will not in this case forfeit all the £100 or all the cask or package." But, when we come to this Bill, which, after all, is dealing with an entirely new subject matter, and therefore it is to be supposed that the legislature is applying its mind to new things, and when we look at Sub-section (2) to see what is to be substituted for Section 139, we find that the language is entirely different. It is not that he shall forfeit a sum of money, but that if the entry be false he shall be liable to a penalty of£100. Before proceeding, I would like the Committee to look at Section 14, which provides certain other penalties, and in each instance in that Section he will find the language most carefully framed. In each instance where a pecuniary penalty is provided, as for instance on page 20, line 9, are the words:
    "liable.…to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to imprisonment.…."
    That is in each instance in the Clause. As an essay in construction, if this Clause came to be construed, it appears to me highly probable that, where you find in one Act of Parliament dealing with a new subject matter and a new state of affairs the words "not exceeding" put in in one Section and left out in. another, it would be held that it was not done by accident, but was done by design. Therefore, the point made by the right hon. Member for Horsham is a good point. It does appear that this would prevent any tribunal or any court or any Customs officer that is going to deal with this matter from saying, "On this occasion
    524
    the matter is so trivial that you will only pay 5s." It does appear, therefore, that this point needs further consideration. As to the other point which was made by the hon. Member opposite, I myself have the same difficulty in appreciating it as 'he has. He looks at it from the mind of a layman, and I look at it from the mind, of a lawyer. After all, it is the layman who is often going to be concerned in these matters, and not the lawyer at all. It seems to me there is the utmost difficulty in making the two parts of the Bill fit together, and I suggest that the Clause does need re-examination, overhauling and re-drafting.
    Earl WINTERTON: I do not want to dispute what the First Commissioner for Works has said. I would be the last to, make an attack on him, in view of the courtesy he has always shown to the Committee and in view of his desire to meet points which are raised, for which we are very grateful. I am sure, however, that he will allow a few comments because, after all, disunity in the Ministerial family is as fashionable as being a platinum blonde. He will not mind comments on the attitude of the Government on what is, after all, a very important machinery Clause. He used the phrase that he was instructed on the matter. Had it been the Financial Secretary, whose business it is not to be instructed but to know, it would have been possible to obtain a more definite answer, but that is a small and pernickety point. I will deal with a point of rather more substance. My right hon. Friend said that he would make sure before the Report stage if there was any departure from the existing law. My hon. and learned Friend beside me thinks that there is a change in principle. Ministers who come down with Bills like this should come down with knowledge of these points. These things did not happen when Leaders of the House were present during every important Debate. Now that we have two Leaders of the House, they are not present as often as when we had one. I have no doubt the Leader of the Opposition should also be present.
    Sir FREDERICK THOMSON (Treasurer of the Household): The right hon. Member for Bewdley (Mr. Baldwin) has just left the House.
    Earl WINTERTON: There is no reason why he should not remain. I am not making an attack upon him. I understand that the Lord President has a very proper reason for being absent. I am speaking generally. I am only saying that in the old days these important Committee points were dealt with more carefully than at present. I am content to leave the matter to the Report stage, but in the case of these more important machinery Clauses which really affect the whole working of the Bill—and I suggest to my hon. Friend behind me, who is really the father of the Bill, that, unless the machinery of the Bill is such that the public can understand it, we shall not get the advantage from the Bill that we desire—I suggest that from now onwards the Ministers should make sure beforehand that a thing is so, and come down here able to answer the questions put to them.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I do not want to join in the castigation—
    Earl WINTERTON: The last thing I wanted to do was to castigate.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman was not castigating at all. I must say a word about the Lord President of the Council that, although I attack him as a member of the Opposition, it is fair to say that he has put in quite as much time as the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken.
    Earl WINTERTON: There is this difference between the Lord President of the Council and myself in this regard, and there are many other differences, namely, that he receives a salary for being here and I receive a salary which, owing to the provisions of the law, does not compel me to be here.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman is not in whole-time employment. May I ask the First Commissioner of Works one further question? There is a point which seems to me a matter of great importance on this Clause. As I understand it, under the proviso on page 9 to which he refers, it is possible to issue receipts for quota payments in advance, and those receipts can be issued not against any goods at all but simply on demand. Those receipts will then become negotiable
    526
    instruments, and can be gambled with. Those receipts will represent nothing except the payment of a certain sum of money to a certain person, and they can be passed from one person to another. Where you are going to have a changing quota, as contemplated in this Bill, and not a fixed quota, people may well buy a great quantity of these receipts in advance, or store them up, or purchase them from other people who have them. It is a very dangerous feature to introduce. Again, on page 11, line 10, it says that these receipts shall
    "be conclusive evidence that those payments have been made."
    If the receipts are issued in advance of payments, once the receipt is in the hands of the person who is going to pay he has got conclusive evidence that he has paid. If anyone demands the money from him, he shows them the Act and says that the receipt is conclusive evidence of payment. The right hon. Gentleman must make this a little more reasonable, or there will be a first-class means of evading payments under this Bill.
    Mr. ATKINSON: There are three points I want to make. First, with regard to the point which the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned, it is not as he suggested. The words are, "for the purpose of such enactments," that is, for the purpose of enactments relating to Customs and Excise. These receipts are to be conclusive evidence that the 'payments have been made. The scheme contemplated by the section is as follows, and really Sub-section (1) is easy to follow if one appreciates the difference between entry and signature of the entry. It is following a, procedure with which we are familiar. The first thing that is done when goods are imported is that they are entered in a book with the name of the consignee. The next thing is that the consignee has to pay his duty. In this case he has to give evidence that he has made the payments that this Act requires. He produces a receipt and, for the purpose of the Customs official, that receipt is to be conclusive. When he has produced that receipt, then, and not till then, does the Customs officer sign the entry. When the entry is signed, and not till then, can the consignee remove his goods.

    527
    The procedure is perfectly simple and the receipt, which it is true can be given in advance under the scheme, is not conclusive evidence between the holder of the receipt and anybody else, but only conclusive evidence for the purpose of securing the signature of the entry in the book.
    Mr. GROOM-JOHNSON: It is not merely the production of the receipt. The point is a stronger point than the one the hon. and learned Gentleman is making. It is the production and surrender of the receipt.
    Mr. ATKINSON: I agree that it strengthens the point. He gets the entry signed and removes his goods, leaving the receipt with the Customs officer. There is one point which the First Commissioner of Works made which one cannot let pass unchallenged. It was suggested that the words:
    "if he fails or neglects to make such entry or if the entry be false …."
    might imply that an offence had been committed even though the person had not been wilful about it, and the First Commissioner said it would not be an offence unless it was done wilfully. If that is the intention, the words ought to be altered. It is true that for offences at Common Law a guilty mind is part of the offence; but statutory offences, of which so many have been created in recent years, do not depend on the guilty mind at all, and many innocent people have been convicted under those statutes for not carrying out some duty which the Acts imposed upon them. One can think of many illustrations. A man may be wholly ignorant of the law, yet ignorance of the law is no excuse. Very often these offences are committed by servants or agents of the person who is prosecuted, but it is no answer to say, "I know nothing about it; I gave orders to my servant, and he failed to carry them out."
    Under this Clause the offence will he complete, however innocent the offender may be in his mind. He may have failed to do something either in ignorance, or because his agent failed to do what he told him to do, and he may have had every intention of performing this duty, and yet, through somebody else's fault,
    528
    there has been a failure, and therefore he becomes liable to a penalty of £100. If these words stood alone in the Bill, it would be very arguable that the greater includes the less, and that there would be discretion in the magistrates to impose a lesser fine, but there is great force in the argument that in the other Clause in the Bill where penalties are imposed, we always have the words "not exceeding." It is suggested, therefore, that where you have different language in the Bill a different intention exists. At any rate, if the desire is that there should be no distinction, it would he a simple thing to make it clear.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: May I thank the First Commissioner of Works for the way that he has realised the complications of this Clause, and to assure him that none of us wish to hamper the progress of the Bill. I would point out that the Clause in the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, only imposes this penalty where people are exporting explosives, and it seems a little strange to make here the same penalty which the Act of 1876 thought. fit to impose for explosives.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have listened carefully to what has been said in the Debate. These Clauses were drafted in consultation with the Customs. They are, as I understand it, in line with the general procedure, but in view of the discussion I agree that they require to be carefully looked into, and I will undertake to have that done in conjunction with the Law Officers of the Crown.
    Mr. ATTLEE: It is a little unfortunate that we have had no Law Officers of the Crown here. We have four Law Officers, and we ought certainly to have had some legal advice. We have had admirable legal opinion from the back benches, but on a first-class Measure like this there should be some attendance on the part of the Law Officers.
    Earl WINTERTON: In order to enable my right hon. Friend to deal with this question on the Report stage, I propose to move to delete the Clause, and I am sure that we will be in a position then to answer the points that have been raised.

    CLAUSE 6.—(Provisions as to Wheat Fund.)
    Mr. ATTLEE: I beg to move, in page 12, line 26, at the end, to add the words:
    "and no other payments shall be made out of the Wheat Fund unless such account and report are approved by the Commons House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-eight days on which that House has sat after such account and report have been laid before Parliament."
    The object of the Amendment is to see that the proceedings of the Wheat Commission and the whole matter of the Wheat Fund are kept within the control of Parliament. We are embarking on a very novel experiment; the House is setting up this body, and we are extracting money, really by way of a tax upon certain consumers, and we shall hand it over as a subsidy to certain categories of persons. It is very necessary that the House should keep the closest possible control on this experiment. As far as I can gather, looking at the Front Bench opposite at the present moment, this Bill is a permanent subsidy. Of course, if the Secretary of State for Scotland were present it would be temporary. It is most necessary, therefore, that the House should know what is happening. Millions of pounds will be passed into this Fund and will be distributed through the Fund, and Parliament ought to keep control over it. We on this side are, perhaps, rather meticulous in insisting that these experiments in collective trading should be under the control of the House, but I do not gather from the Bill that there is any real effective power of review. The Amendment says, that not only must the accounts and reports be laid before Parliament, but that there must be a Debate on the whole subject, and that no further payments will be made out of the Wheat Fund until the House has approved affirmatively of the accounts and the report. That is a safeguard which ought to be put into the Bill. I recollect in the discussions on the last Bill dealing with agricultural matters, hon. Members opposite were insistent on the control of Parliament all the way through, and I hope that the change of sides in the House has not changed their opinion. We want to see that Parliament is not left altogether out of control in this taxing and doling machinery.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The effect of this Amendment would be to break down
    530
    the whole machinery of the working of the Wheat Commission, because it will mean that from the time when the report is presented to the time when the House has passed a special affirmative Resolution approving the previous year's accounts, no disbursements whatever, even to their own staff, could be made by the Wheat Commission. That is quite an unprecedented form of Parliamentary control, and is obviously not what is intended or desired. Everybody agrees that it is only right that the Ministry, and through the Ministry, Parliament should watch this experiment and should have a report each year properly certified and audited, but the proper control of Parliament ought to be exercised in the ordinary way, namely, by its power to raise any question concerning the administration of this fund on the Minister's salary. The Minister has to approve the Estimates and the expenditure of this fund.
    Constitutionally, the duties of the Minister in regard to the fund and to the Wheat Commission have been preserved, and therefore it will be open to the House at any time to ask questions about them, and it will be open to the House of Commons to review the matter in Committee of Supply on the Vote of the Minister's salary. It would be quite impracticable without breaking down the whole machinery of the Commission, to require an affirmative Resolution in this case, and the Government cannot possibly agree with the Amendment. It would mean that unless and until the Comptroller and Auditor - General's accounts and report have been approved by a special affirmative Resolution no payments whatever could be made. That is really an impractical method of providing Parliamentary control. The mere fact that the Government have assured in this Bill that the Comptroller and Auditor-General shall review the fund each year and shall make a report, is a sufficient indication that they are determined that this whole matter shall be carried on in accordance with the strict rules of national finance and of Ministerial and public control.
    7.30 p.m.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: This is the first time that I have intervened in the Debate to-day, but I must confess that I am not happy about the words used by the right hon. Gentleman. He said that our

    531
    Amendment was unprecedented. It is unprecedented because the Bill itself is unprecedented. Consequently, if we are going to deal with the money of the consumer through the farmer, the miller, the Wheat Commission and the Ministry, we must have evidence and balance sheets in a new way entirely. Let me run through the organisations and the people who will have pickings out of this £6,000,000 or £7,000,000. There is the farmer, the individual miller, the Millers' Corporation, the Wheat Commission, the corn merchant, the poultry keeper, the Minister of Agriculture and the Government Departments concerned. All these people will receive some payments, and this Bill is designed to give them pickings. I am glad to take part in this particular point of finance. My hon. Friends have been dealing with the quota, but they think that I am capable of saying a word or two about balance sheets. There is an analogy between this Measure and the beet sugar subsidy. How long will it take, unless we carry this Amendment, before the Government Department is able to secure an audit of the accounts? It seems to me that a large number of Amendments will be required to make the Bill workable. This is the mast complicated thing I have ever seen before Parliament, and I wish to deal with the point about the accounts. Will the accounts of the Flour Millers' Corporation be audited by the Treasury?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think the speech of the hon. Member would be more appropriate to the question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." The point before us now is whether the payment should be made out of the Wheat Commission Fund before a definite Resolution has been passed by this House.
    Mr. DAVIES: I was getting a little wide of the mark, because I wanted to prove that I knew something about the subject. Perhaps I may have an opportunity of putting my point later, because it is an important one. On the particular issue now before us our Amendment says:
    "and no other payment shall be made out of the Wheat Fund until such account and report are approved by the Commons House of Parliament."
    Is the right hon. Gentleman afraid of the House of Commons? If that is not the case he ought to accept this Amendment. Altogether too much authority has been given to Government Departments by this Government. They have rushed Bills through Parliament at such a speed that I am not sure whether the Departments can digest them properly or work them, and that is one of the reasons why I am supporting the Amendment. Having said that much, I am sure I have convinced the Government that there is substance in this Amendment.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 43; Noes, 230.

    Division No. 119.]

    AYES.

    [7.32 p.m.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Briant, Frank

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Buchanan, George

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Cape, Thomas

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Price, Gabriel

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Hirst, George Henry

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cove, William G.

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Thorne, William James

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Janner, Barnett

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Daggar, George

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Kirkwood, David

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Edwards, Charles

    Lawson, John James

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Leonard, William

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Lunn, William

    TELLERS FOR THE AYFS.—

    Mr. John and Mr. Groves.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Atkinson, Cyril

    Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton)

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Blindell, James

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Boothby, Robert John Graham

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Borodale, Viscount

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm th, C.)

    Bossom, A. C.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Bernays, Robert

    Boulton, W. W.

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn)

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Hope, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston)

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

    Ramsden, E.

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Ratcliffe, Arthur

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

    Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

    Caine, G. R. Hall

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James Philip

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Robinson, John Roland

    Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley)

    Johnston, J. w. (Clackmannan)

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Rosbotham, S. T.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Kimball, Lawrence

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Russell, Hamer Field, (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Christie, James Archibald

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.;

    Salmon, Major Isidore

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Leckie, J. A.

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Colville, John

    Levy, Thomas

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Lewis, Oswald

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Scone, Lord

    Cooke, Douglas

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Llewellin, Major John J.

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Dickie, John P.

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Donner, P. W.

    Mabane, William

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Drewe, Cedric

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Duggan, Hubert John

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Stones, James

    Duncan, James A. L, (Kensington, N.)

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Storey, Samuel

    Eales, John Frederick

    McLean, Major Alan

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Eastwood, John Francis

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Elmley, Viscount

    Maitland, Adam

    Templeton, William P.

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C,

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Thompson, Luke

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Millar, Sir James Duncan

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Fermoy, Lord

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Fox, Sir Gilford

    Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Muirhead, Major A. J.

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Munro, Patrick

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Coff, Sir Park

    Nation, Brigadler-General J. J. H.

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Weymouth, Viscount

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Nunn, William

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    O'Connor, Terence James

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Greene, William P. C.

    O'Donovan, Dr. William James

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Grimston, R. V.

    Ormiston, Thomas

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Pearson, William G.

    withers, Sir John James

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Penny, Sir George

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Petherick, M.

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bilst'n)

    Wragg, Herbert

    Hartland, George A.

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle)

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Mr. Womersley and Major George

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Davies,

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 7.—(Adjustment of surpluses and deficiencies in Wheat Fund.)
    Dr. SALTER: I beg to (move, in page 12, line 29, to leave out from the word "year," to the word "quota" in line 32.
    534
    The effect of this Amendment would be to omit the words:
    "or by reason of the estimated average price of home-grown millable wheat ceasing to be less than the standard price."
    This Amendment was put down with the object of drawing the Minister, and inducing him to give us his views on whether the price of home-grown wheat

    535
    is likely to rise above the standard price. I am very glad that the First Commissioner of Works is to reply, because I know he understands the Bill, and it has been perfectly obvious since the Debate started that the Minister of Agriculture does not understand it. It is also perfectly certain that the First Commissioner of Works has some very decided views on the subject, while the Minister of Agriculture is apparently only able to repeat the views which are handed to him on a piece of paper or communicated to him orally from the official pew. [Interruption.] Certainly that is so. I hope the First Commissioner will be able to give us a very definite estimate. The price of homegrown wheat necessarily depends upon the free market price, which, in turn, depends on the world price, and that is determined by the supply, and particularly by the question of whether there is or is not a world surplus.
    At the present moment the world carryover of wheat is simply enormous, and it is increasing year by year. The official figures for Canada were given to us the other day, and they are really striking. In 1926 the carry-over was 26,000,000 bushels, in 1927 36,000,000 bushels, in 1928 50,000,000 bushels, in 1929 77,000,000 bushels, in 1930 104,000,000 bushels and in 1931 111,000,000 bushels. The estimated carry-over at 31st December, 1931, was no less than 212,000,000 bushels. That is the figure for Canada alone. That 212,000,000 bushels represents almost the total supply required by the United Kingdom for one year. The position in Canada is paralleled in a number of other countries. When an ex-Minister for the Dominion was addressing us in the Committee Room in Westminster Hall the other night he finished up with these words, which I took down at the time:
    "As far as can be seen the position"
    that is, in regard to Canada,
    "will be even more serious when the next harvest is reaped."
    The position is exactly the same in the United States; and we know that the estimated surplus in Russia after the next autumn reaping will be very much greater than last year's. Each year a larger area in Russia is being collectivised and sown and reaped under a system of complete mechanisation. The last official figures that I have seen from the Soviet
    536
    Union showed that the estimated surplus available for export from Russia from the present harvest would be nearly one-third greater than last year. That means that we are going to have on the world market in this coming year a greater surplus than has ever been known before in the history of the world. I do not think there is any dispute in trade circles on that particular point. A great many hon. Members opposite would desire to exclude Russian wheat products from this country. I have heard that view expressed in this House over and over again. It would not matter in the least degree to the world wheat situation if we did exclude Russian wheat products. All that would happen would be that the surplus not sold here would be dumped upon the general neutral markets. We should be shutting out very good wheat at an extremely cheap price and buying a relatively inferior wheat at a higher price. We should do ourselves no good, but simply cut off our noses to spite our faces.
    Then we have had talk in this House within the last few days about the surplus of wheat which is to be exported from India in this coming season. The Viceroy opened a great dam on the Indus a few weeks ago. I understood from an Anglo-Indian gentleman in the Lobby here only a couple of days ago that a good many of the lands now being irrigated have since been sown or were sown before the dam was opened. The Punjab expects this year to be able to return to the position of being an exporter of wheat, and it did not export last year. From this year onward there will be an increasing export of wheat from our Indian Empire. That, again, will aggravate the situation so far as the world price is concerned. The Oriental people hoped that they would absorb this great surplus. It was assumed that the rising standard of living in the East would cause the people to substitute wheat for rice for ordinary consumption, but hope in that direction has been defeated, because those Orientals who have consumed wheat in place of rice found that from the point of view of health they have not been so well as with their native diet, and to a very large extent Orientals have returned to the old diet.
    Viscount WOLMER: Is the hon. Member in order in discussing these matters on this Amendment
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I have listened to the hon. Member very carefully. As far as I can make out he is giving reasons why, if the supply of wheat becomes much larger, the price of imported wheat would be very low. The hon. Member has been very long, but I do not think he is out of order.
    Dr. SALTER: That was precisely the intention of my remarks. I was trying to show that there was no likelihood whatever of the home price either approximating to the standard price or rising appreciably at all within any for-seeable time, that the prospect was that the surplus will be further increased in the course of the next few years, and that that fact alone will certainly involve a stabilisation of the home price at the present figure, if it does not actually diminish it. The general feeling in what I might call the corn and flour world is that the present low price will continue to rule for a fair number of years to come at the very least, and in these circumstances there seems little or no prospect of the home price reaching the standard price mentioned in the Bill.
    Mr. SKELTON: I do not propose to follow the hon. Gentleman in his very interesting remarks as to the future of wheat prices. I fancy there is an alternative view, based on the well-known fact that when the price of an agricultural product falls to a very low level, there is an immediate reaction in the restriction of area. I do not propose to discuss that in full, and for this reason: The Clause is really only a machinery Clause, and the phrase which the hon. Gentleman wishes to have excised is in the Bill only for one purpose. I have my own suspicion that the hon. Gentleman already understands that, but he did not state it openly. The Clause is for this purpose: The Wheat Commission should be enabled, even when the estimated average price has risen, let us suppose temporarily, to the standard price, to raise by way of quota certain small sums necessary for its continuing its administrative existence. That is the object of the words to which the hon. Member seems to take exception. I think the Committee will agree that, whatever may be individual views as to the remoteness or proximity of the contingency of the estimated average price rising to that of the standard price, when you are
    538
    putting in machinery Clauses it is well to prevent, in that contingency, the financial existence of the Wheat Commission coming to an untimely end. I think the hon. Member will see that the words have a real value, although he has given them additional value by using them as a peg on which to hang an interesting dissertation on the future of wheat prices.
    Dr. SALTER: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Sir S. CRIPPS: We have an Amendment on the Paper to leave out the words:
    "or may, if he is satisfied that the circumstances so require, by order direct that the liability to make quota payments other than those already accrued clue shall cease until a further order is made,"
    but, as it has not been called, I must raise the point on the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." Power is given to the Minister in the middle of the year suddenly to cease charging quota payments at all. It seems to us that in those circumstances, if that power is retained, he may act very unequally as regards the supply of flour and possibly react on the farmer. As I understand the Clause it is intended to be brought into use only when Clause 3 fails to operate for some reason. It is not easy to understand why the Minister wants both of these powers, in the circumstances in which he has to operate the one or the other. In Clause 3, Subsection (5), it is stated:
    "If at any time during a cereal year the Minister considers that, for the purpose of securing that the average amount of the quota payments which will have accrued due during the cereal year shall more nearly represent the sum mentioned in Sub-section (1) of this Section, it is expedient so to do, he may, after consultation with the Wheat Commission, by a subsequent order supersede the order theretofore in force under this Section as from the date of the subsequent order."
    That is to say, he can vary the amount of the quota payment which has to be made in the second portion of the year. That variation, of course, can be down to nothing if he wants it. If it starts at being 2s. 6d. to 3s. per sack, it can fall to, nothing if in the middle of the year the

    539
    Minister finds that too large a sum is being accumulated, or that there has been an alteration in the market conditions that requires a smaller sum to be found. In those circumstances it is very difficult to understand what it is that is wanted in Clause 7. The Minister has already power to reduce the quota payment at any period, down to nothing, and similarly when he comes to make the Order for the next cereal year, having examined the condition of the Wheat Fund, he can say that in the circumstances it is not necessary to raise any more money or, there being a deficiency, that the quota must be higher than the calculated figure.
    8.0 p.m.
    As regards the final words of Clause 7, it seems to us to be undesirable, in the middle of a cereal year, for the reasons stated at the beginning of the Clause, entirely to discontinue quota payments, because that may lead to people, when prices are rising, again gambling in what is likely to happen with the quota payment. If they think that at a certain period of the year the quota payment is likely to stop altogether, they may put off getting wheat imported, simply use up the stocks that are in the country, and delay their purchases until such time as they think the quota is going to fall. If the quota is likely to rise they will act the other way round. We suggest that it is not desirable to encourage any speculation of that sort unless it is absolutely necessary. We do not see the necessity for inserting this extra power under Clause 7, in addition to the power already conferred under Clause 3.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The very purpose of Clause 7 is to enable the Minister, in lieu of prescribing the amount of quota payments, to prescribe during that year quota payments of such amounts as he considers expedient for those purposes. The Clause also gives the Minister power to direct that the liability to make quota payments other than those already accrued due shall cease until a further Order is made. I think that is quite clear. Another part of the Clause provides sufficient money to get the machinery into existence, but in any case the words which the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) has moved to leave out are essential in order that the Minister may make an Order directing that the liability to make further payments shall cease but without prejudice to any liability in respect of quota payments proved to be due. I think it is clear that those words are necessary to complete the arrangements which have been made, and on those grounds the Government cannot accept the Amendment.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what the reason is for separating these powers which seem to be a mere extension of the powers concerned by Clause 3, and which makes it more difficult to find them when looking through the Bill?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: This Clause deals with the circumstances which arise when certain levels have been reached in price.
    Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 231; Noes, 41.

    Division No. 120.]

    AYES.

    [8.3 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Christie, James Archibald

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Clarke, Frank

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Colville, John

    Atkinson, Cyril

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Cooke, Douglas

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

    Burgin, Dr, Edward Leslie

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Caine, G. R. Hall-

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, G.)

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Bernays, Robert

    Campbell, Rear-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Blindell, James

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Dickie, John P.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Donner, P. W.

    Drewe, Cedric

    Levy, Thomas

    Rentoul Sir Gervais S.

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Lewis, Oswald

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James Philip

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Eales, John Frederick

    Lister, Rt. Hon. sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Eastwood, John Francis

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Robinson, John Roland

    Elmley, Viscount

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Rosbotham, S. T.

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool)

    Mabane, William

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Everard, W, Lindsay

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Fermoy, Lord

    McLean, Major Alan

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Salmon, Major Isidore

    Fuller, Captain A. O.

    Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Maitland, Adam

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Petney)

    Gillett, Sir George Master man

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Scone, Lord

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Goff. Sir Park

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Millar, Sir James Duncan

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Greene, William P. C.

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Stones, James

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Muirhead, Major A. J.

    Storey, Samuel

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Munro, Patrick

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Hartland, George A.

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle)

    Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Templeton, William P.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Nicholson. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Petersf'ld)

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Hope, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston)

    Nunn, William

    Thompson, Luke

    Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

    O'Connor, Terence James

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Ormiston, Thomas

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Pearson, William G.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Penny, Sir George

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Petherick, M.

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n,Bilston)

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Jennings, Roland

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Weymouth, viscount

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.J

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Kimball, Lawrence

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Islet)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Ramsden, E.

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

    Ratcliffe, Arthur

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon Viscount

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Wragg, Herbert

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Leckie, J. A.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Held, William Allan (Derby)

    Mr. Womersley and Lord Erskine.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Grenfell, David Rest (Glamorgan)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Batey, Joseph

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Briant, Frank

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Price, Gabriel

    Buchanan, George

    Hirst, George Henry

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cape, Thomas

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Thorne, William James

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Janner, Barnett

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cowan, D. M.

    John, William

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Daggar, George

    Kirkwood, David

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    navies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lawson, John James

    Edwards, Charles

    Logan, David Gilbert

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Lunn, William

    Mr. Duncan Graham and Mr.

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Groves.

    Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 8.—(Provisions as to Millers' Quota Fund.)
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: I beg to move, in page 13, line 13, at the end, to insert the words:
    542
    "and shall be laid before Parliament."
    I will address myself to the points that really matter. Clause 8, Sub-section (1) reads as follows:

    543
    "(1) For the purposes of this Act there shall be established under the control and management of the Flour Millers' Corporation a fund called the "Millers' Quota Fund" into which shall be paid all moneys received by the Corporation, and out of which shall be defrayed all expenditure incurred by the Corporation."
    Now I come to Sub-section (2) upon which my Amendment rests. It reads:
    "(2) The accounts of the Millers' Quota Fund shall be kept in the prescribed form and shall be audited annually by an auditor approved by the Minister."
    I want to go a stage further than that. With my Amendment inserted the Sub-section will read:
    "(2) The accounts of the Millers' Quota Fund shall be kept in the prescribed form and shall be audited annually by an auditor approved by the Minister, and shall be laid before Parliament."
    That is the passage upon which my argument will turn for about three or four minutes. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for West Bermondsey (Dr. Salter) delighted us with a speech lasting for nearly two hours. I have never been guilty of speaking for longer than about half-an-hour or so. After all, this is a very important Clause. If hon. Members will turn to the Memorandum on the front page of the Bill, they will find that the only mention of any accountancy at all in connection with this Bill is to be found on page 2 of the Memorandum which reads as follows:
    "The Wheat Commission will not be a Government Department, but provision is made for audit of their accounts by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and a report by him to Parliament."
    I want to raise two points. I wish to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he can tell us what is the prescribed form and what type of auditor is to be approved by the Minister of Agriculture. I have had a little experience in the work of accountancy. I have been looking through a list of the Members of the Government, and, although I have found that there are any number of bankers, financiers and lawyers among them, have not found a single person on the Government bench who knows anything about accountancy. I do not know whether they could add two and two correctly. Although the House of Commons includes a large number of solicitors and a goodly number of bankers, while the most enlightened trade unionists in the land, of course, are here, I
    544
    have not come across anyone who has done any auditing on a large scale, or who claims to know very much about accountancy. I do not myself claim to be an accountant, but, as no one else can deal with the subject, I venture on the task with humility.
    While all other items of the State's income and expenditure are to be laid before Parliament under this Bill, it is obvious, from the Bill as it now stands, that the Millers' Quota Fund account will not be laid before Parliament at all. Any transaction upon which the State puts its seal should be presented to Parliament. My experience has been that about 98 per cent. of every section of the community will do the right thing, but the law is always passed in order to secure that the 2 or 3 per cent. who always do wrong shall be brought up to the standard of honour that the others claim for themselves. Therefore, we say that the accounts of the Flour Millers' Corporation should be laid before Parliament, so that Parliament may see, not only how the business works from a political or agricultural point of view, but how the money is expended, how it is collected, and how it is handed over to the farmer.
    There is also the consumer's point of view, and we want to know whether the farmers, the Flour Millers' Corporation and the other people connected with the business, are exploiting the consumer. If the right hon. Gentleman is in office—as I hope he will not be for very long—he will have to decide what shall be the prescribed form of accountancy. Is it to be a simple income and expenditure account? Is it to be a debtor and creditor account? Will it include a profit and loss account? Will it show a dividend to be paid to the shareholders? There is a further and more important point. There are in this country several organisations of auditors and accountants, and I can conceive that the right hon. Gentleman, when he comes to the question of an auditor approved by the Minister, may find himself in a difficulty at once. The oldest and most famous institution of auditors in this country is the Institute of Chartered Accountants. I should imagine that there would be no difficulty about the Minister prescribing at once that a properly qualified chartered accountant should audit the

    545
    accounts of the Flour Millers' Corporation. Labour Ministers, Conservative Ministers, and National Government Ministers would all agree that a properly qualified chartered accountant might be an auditor in such a case. But would the right' hon. Gentleman approve of a public accountant as an auditor for this purpose; or would he approve of an incorporated accountant There are people who audit accounts who have no title at all to any claim that they should audit the accounts of some firms, and I hope that the Minister will take this opportunity to bring the science of auditing, in connection with this Bill, up to the highest possible standard that can be secured.
    The CHAIRMAN: I have been looking al; the hon. Member's Amendment, and I do not see that the question of auditing comes into it at all. The Amendment merely says that these accounts, which the Bill already says shall be audited, are to be laid before Parliament.
    Mr. DAVIES: I bow to your Ruling at once. I would only say that the names of the auditors are always included in the balance sheet of a firm, and, consequently, the right hon. Gentleman, when he lays these papers before Parliament, as we desire, will not only have to present the accounts themselves, but the name of the auditor will have to be shown at the foot of the balance sheet.
    The CHAIRMAN: But that will not be a sufficient peg upon which to hang a discussion as to who may be the auditor.
    Mr. DAVIES: Then I am bound to try to find another one. Like yourself, Sir, I have been a member of the Committee on Procedure, and I will keep strictly within the limits of order as prescribed by you. We have had to complain that the accounts of the Beet Sugar Subsidy have never been presented to Parliament except as a whole. It is simply the gross item of the subsidy from the State that go into those accounts. They are audited by a State auditor, and the Comptroller and Auditor-General accepts the fact that they have been audited. Those accounts are laid before Parliament. The accounts of the approved societies of this country, also, are brought before Parliament, and there is an auditor's report once every five years showing the financial situation
    546
    of every approved society in the country. The Government will not be doing their duty, and will not bring about a proper standard of honour in public affairs, unless they not only lay before Parliament the accounts of the Flour Millers' Corporation, but give some indication to the House as to how those accounts are assembled from the details. The accounts of the Co-operative Wholesale Society, which is the largest miller in the land, can be brought before Parliament at any time without any difficulty, and the Cooperative Wholesale Society will be part of the Flour Millers' Corporation. While, apparently, several of the other accounts mentioned in this Bill will be laid before Parliament, it is not intended, I understand, that these detailed items shall be brought before Parliament at all. If the right hon. Gentleman doubts me, let me say again that the words of the very Sub-section which I am attacking indicate that that is the case. It provides that
    "The accounts of the Millers' Quota Fund shall be kept in the prescribed form and shall be audited annually by an auditor approved by the Minister."
    But it stops there. I cannot see a word in the Bill anywhere indicating how the operations of this corporation are to be brought to light. The right hon. Gentleman's argument will probably be that the State does not expend any money on this particular corporation. I would say, in reply, that wherever the State sanctions the expenditure of money, or the collection of money from one section of the community and the handing of it over to another section, especially if the accounts are audited by the approval of a Department of State, those accounts ought to be laid before Parliament. There is nothing to prevent this Bill from becoming law, and, when it becomes law, I should like to see that nothing is done in connection with the financial transactions under it that will offend the susceptibilities as regards honour of any section of the community of this country. One of the safeguards, therefore, for securing that everything is done clean and aboveboard in all these transactions is to accept the Amendment.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's concluding words, that no one desires that anything should be hidden that ought to he disclosed and that we ought to be very careful in all these transactions to see that proper regard is had to adequate supervision. As

    547
    far as the administrative expenses of the Flour Millers' Corporation are paid by the Wheat Commission, they will be part of the expenses of that Commission, and they will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and laid before Parliament, so that, as far as regards that side of the problem, every safeguard is provided. The only other account of the Flour Millers' Corporation will be that which is connected with the trading operations which they will carry out at the end of the season, in June and July, purchasing the crops that are left on the farms, which they are bound to do under the obligation which the Minister makes under the Order in Clause 1 (3). That is an ordinary business transaction, and I do not know that there is any public advantage to be gained by requiring the Corporation to say, in the accounts that are laid before Parliament, whether it has made a profit or a loss on that transaction. It really is an ordinary trading operation the results of which will accrue to or become a liability of every miller. As long as they carry out the Order which the Minister imposes, the question whether they make a profit or a loss on the transaction does not really affect anyone except the millers themselves and that is a matter within their own organisation and is an obligation which they have undertaken to observe and, as long as the obligation is carried out, I can see no justification for imposing upon the Government the laying of these special accounts, nor can I see any real advantage from the point of view of the supervision here. All that this House has any reason to be anxious about is whether the Order which the Minister has made for the purchase of those things has been carried out. The accounts for such part of it as comes directly under the Wheat Commission, and for which the Wheat Commission is responsible, will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and will be laid before Parliament.
    Mr. D. GRENFELL: We are happy to find that the Minister is in agreement with us that we should be very careful in regard to matters of this kind, and especially in regard to accounts kept for the purposes of the Flour Millers' Corporation. We must always remember who the Flour Millers' Corporation are. It is a body to be set up to consist of
    548
    "a chairman and four other persons appointed by the Minister after consultation with such bodies as in his opinion represent the interests of millers."
    8.30 p.m.
    They appear very often in the Bill. They come in, first of all, in Clause 1. They come in on the ground floor and they appear in subsequent Clauses one by one until the very end. In Clause 1 they are to be given power to buy certain wheat. The Minister made light of that, but the amount of trading to, be done by them is not negligible. They are entitled to buy as much as 12½ per cent. of the annual crop and to pay the full standard price if they deem it necessary. The purchase price of the full quantity may well run to nearly £2,000,000 in a year. In Clause 3 the Wheat Commission is to lay down by-laws to regulate the manner in which the price of home-grown millable wheat brought from registered growers by the Flour Millers' Corporation shall be determined according to quality and market conditions by reference to the price specified in the Order. After getting general directions from the Wheat Commission, these people set themselves up as a responsible trading authority and buy and sell in their own sweet way—these four jolly millers, doing what they jolly well like so long as they are more or less working on the general lines submitted by the Wheat Commission. Again, we find that the Wheat Commission can make certain payments with the consent of the Flour Millers' Corporation. I find that in Clause 4 (3), the Flour Millers' Corporation giving its consent, being set up as a body superior to the Wheat Commission itself. This consent is to be given
    "for the payment of such sums by that Corporation on behalf of registered millers and, if the Commission are satisfied that there is at any time a Corporation representative of the importers of flour, the like provision may, with the consent of that Corporation, be made with respect to the payment of such sums by that Corporation on behalf of importers of flour."
    They have very extensive functions and all we ask is that, when this body has very large trading accounts—there is a large amount of trade being done, involving the carrying out of very delicate responsibilities—it is not sufficient that the fund should be audited by an auditor approved by the Minister. It is important enough that its accounts shall be presented at the end of the year. They may

    549
    not necessarily be debated in the House but there will be an opportunity, if the accounts are submitted, for debating and checking the work done by the Flour Millers' Corporation, a body responsible only to millers, who are only representative of the millers and have no other interest in their mind and no responsibility to anyone else except the Flour Millers' Corporation. I think the Minister ought to come to an agreement with us on the Amendment, because there will be a great deal of suspicion. The farmers will be suspicious. The millers have looked after themselves, because they are strong enough. They tied the Minister up before the Bill was introduced. They have got their terms. Other interests have not been so influential. We hope the Minister will see to it that an annual statement of accounts, with details of the expenditure and income of the Millers' Quota Fund, shall be presented to the House and that we shall be privileged to see from time to time how this body performs its duties.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: May I put one point which seems to me of some importance? I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman when he says there is no public advantage achieved by the submission of these accounts to Parliament. I think it will be agreed that the general public is very deeply concerned in the matter and, after all, the House of Commons is not here to look after millers or wheat producers or any special section or interest of that sort. It is here mainly to look after the interests of the general public. It seems to me that the general public's interest, from the point of view of the Wheat Commission, is amply safeguarded. Their accounts will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and will be reviewed by the Public Accounts Committee. As I understand my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell), the Wheat Commission in certain respects will operate under the guidance or instructions of the Flour Millers' Corporation. Let us assume that the Auditor-General in due time comes before the Public Accounts Committee in order to give explanations for which the Public Accounts Committee may ask concerning his audit. A question may be asked of him by a member of the committee as to why this, that or the other thing was
    550
    done, and the reply will be, "Oh, it was done under the advice or the instruction of the Flour Millers' Corporation." Surely, it is not an adequate answer to give to a Committee of this House that something was done under the instruction of this organisation, and that, having given that reply, there was nothing more to be said.
    As the right hon. Gentleman knows, and as the Committee know, there will be vast operations conducted by this corporation, and everyone knows that from time to time the House is presented with a volume dealing with trading accounts. I do not see why accounts ranging over such vast sums of money as £1,000,000 or 2,000,000 should not in the ordinary course of things be brought for review before the Committee specially set up by the House every year in order to review the expenditure of money authorised by the House, and in regard to a portion of which, indirectly anyhow, the House is specially concerned. I think that the right hon. Gentleman will see that there is a very strong case for a review of the work of the Wheat Commission, and that the work of the Wheat Commission cannot be complete or entirely satisfactory unless you also have an adequate review, if possible, of the work of the Flour Millers' Corporation. If we could get that proposal accepted by the right hon. Gentleman, I think that we should thereby be safeguarding for the House complete control of the whole of the operations involved in the work both of the Wheat Commission and of the Flour Millers' Corporation. The right hon. Gentleman from that point of view ought to recon Sider the answer which he has already given.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: We must have clearly in our minds how this thing will operate. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is desirable that the Comptroller and Auditor-General, when these accounts are laid before Parliament, shall be in a position to give the fullest information upon everything which is material. I do not think that there is any doubt that that will be the case because the accounts of the Flour Millers' Corporation, as far as they are linked with the Wheat Commission—any transactions which are controlled indirectly between those two bodies—in

    551
    every respect will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and laid before Parliament.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: Let us assume that they are subject to review. Who in due time, therefore, will appear before the Public Accounts Committee to give an account supplementary to that of the Auditor-General?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The provision is that the account will be laid, and I have no doubt that if anything further from the Auditor-General is required—and as it is the Department and the Minister who are responsible for certain orders in connection with this matter, and for the orders which are brought before the House—no doubt in the ordinary way the Department will be there to answer such questions as may be asked. As I understand it, the only thing which is not dealt with in this matter is the transaction which takes place at the close of the year, when, not through the Wheat Commission, but by a direct order of the Minister, the remaining stocks of wheat upon the farm up to 12½ per cent. are directed to be purchased at a price which is to be determined. Those transactions will have nothing to do with the Wheat Commission. They are responsibilities taken on under agreement by the millers. It is a transaction which they have taken upon themselves and are bound to carry out, and it is entirely a question between individual millers who have given that undertaking and really does not concern anything which touches or impinges upon the levies upon flour.
    Therefore, as far as I can see, there is no real anxiety from the point of view of Parliament. It is true, of course, that our anxiety will be to see that the order of the Minister is carried out. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Gentlemen opposite that I will look at this side of the problem very carefully between now and the Report stage. Frankly, I do not want to impose upon an outside body which is taking on this responsibility, the repercussion of which, whether it is profit or loss, is no concern of mine as long as the order is carried out, an unnecessary further liability, nor de I think that the Houses of Parliament are concerned with anything other than
    552
    seeing that the order is carried out. But I repeat, I will go into the question very carefully between now and the Report stage.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure me that there is no public money whatever involved in the flour millers' quota fund?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No, Sir, not in this transaction. It is the latter part of the year transaction. Any accounts concerned with the funds of the quota under the Wheat Commission will come before the Auditor-General. The only thing which is not so provided for is that at the end of the season, which has no connection with the matter, which is clear of the Wheat Fund and purely a matter of profit and loss between the millers in the country and which is for themselves internally to settle.
    Mr. ATKINSON: Suppose the Auditor-General finds something wrong and something, which, if it had to do with an employer, it would be his duty to report upon. There is nothing that I can see here which imposes any duty upon him to report to the Minister.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. and learned Gentleman perhaps was not in the Chamber at the time, but I have already pointed out that the question of the auditor and his duties does not arise on the Amendment. It is merely a question of whether the accounts shall be laid before Parliament or not.
    Mr. ATKINSON: It is particularly in connection with that point that I am asking the question. If they are not laid before Parliament, how is anybody to know whether anything is wrong with the accounts? If there were a provision somewhere that the auditor should report to the Minister, the Minister himself could see the accounts. I am pointing out that there is no provision, anywhere for anyone to see the accounts except the auditor, and there is no duty imposed upon the auditor to report if there is anything wrong. It seems, therefore, that unless some provision of that sort is made, there is a case for saying that the accounts ought to come before us.
    Mr. LOGAN: I am pretty well satisfied with the statement made by the Minister, but I am not satisfied that we

    553
    ought to withdraw the Amendment. The full particulars of the new venture ought to be placed before the House of Commons. There is much to be said in favour of the audit, but it is proposed practically to give plenary powers to the Flour Millers' Corporation, and, if they carry them out in conformity with the regulations laid down, there will be duly audited accounts which, according to the Flour Millers' Corporation, may be considered to be true accounts. But, with all due respect, I do not think that we ought to give to the Flour Millers' Corporation plenary powers to deal with something that is in the nature of a national experiment. If the Flour Millers' Corporation were a Department of this House it would be a different matter, but this scheme is something Which the Government have brought forward and in which the nation is vitally interested. We have the right to insist on the acceptance of our Amendment; otherwise, we ought to go to a vote.
    We ask that these matters should be laid before Parliament. To whom would representations be made if there were defalcations? There is no corporation in the country that would have their accounts certified in the mariner in which the Government are asking that these accounts should be certified, and without being brought before the notice of the House. We ought to carry the Amendment. The Government have nothing to be afraid of in bringing before Parliament a detailed statement of accounts. There ought not to be any secrecy. Difficulties may arise with the farmers. Details ought to be given to the House of Commons, especially when we are dealing with things of such colossal magnitude. I am sure that the Audit Department will do the thing in a proper manner, and that the certification will be accurate, but that certification will be only a certification according to the power that is vested in a particular body to carry out its duties, and when it has carried out those duties it will have been made a close corporation, and we shall have no power to go into the question of details. Secrecy ought to go by the board. No one knows what this venture will mean. No one knows anything about the finance of it. There is no data to go upon. The Minister will be well advised to lay all the particulars before the House. The National Government seem
    554
    to be making a close corporation of the Flour Millers' Corporation. We only ask that reasonable methods should be adopted for acquainting Parliament and the country with the facts.
    Mr. JENNINGS: As a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, I would say that if any outside auditor was appointed in these circumstances and anything was wrong, he would be bound to do his duty. If any public money was involved, he would certainly bring it to the notice of the Minister, who would feel that he would be justified in bringing it to the attention of Parliament.
    Mr. LOGAN: Perhaps the hon. Member does not know of companies where they have not done that.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken. In moving this Amendment, we cast no reflection upon any auditor or association of auditors. The right hon. Gentleman is not too certain of the actual application of the words in the Bill or of the words in the Amendment. Therefore, we think it will be much better if we give him an opportunity between now and the Report stage to re-examine the whole question in the light of the discussion. As he is willing to do that, we are willing to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, in page 13, line 19, after the word "stocks," to insert the words:
    "(including administrative expenses incurred by the corporation in connection therewith)."
    The object of the Amendment is to provide that any administrative expenses incurred by the Flour Millers' Corporation in the purchase and disposal of the end-of-season stock by an Order made by the Minister under Clause 1 (3), shall be shown in a separate account, and, by consequential Amendments to Clause 9, shall not be paid by the Wheat Commission. As the administrative expenses will fall to be borne by the millers and will not be deducted from the deficiency payments to the growers, that emphasises the fact that the later period charges are being entirely borne by the millers.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: The right hon. Gentleman has told us that the object of the Amendment is to make it quite certain

    555
    that the whole of these administrative expenses will fall entirely upon the Flour Millers' Corporation and not upon the administrative expenses, under Clause 9 (1), which are to be paid by the Wheat Commission. I am not certain how the administrative expenses are to be distinguished. This Amendment refers to the administrative expenses incurred in connection with the purchase and disposal of end-of-season stock. Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how the administrative expenses for that particular item are to be distinguished from the general administrative expenses of the Flour Millers' Corporation? I presume that the same people will be administering it. Is it intended to have some separate allocation?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: It will be simple for those who are dealing with this matter to keep the accounts separately. There will be the operations that will take place under an Order made by the Minister to deal with the 12½. per cent. It will be well known by those who are dealing with the matter that all these operations will have to be kept separate. They will be kept in separate accounts.
    Mr. ATKINSON: This Amendment deserves very serious consideration. This Clause has troubled me more than any other clause in the Bill. My difficulty is to see how the Millers' Corporation are to pay these administration expenses. The Bill, as drawn, is quite clear in Clause 9. The words there are wide enough to cover all the administration expenses including the expenses of buying and selling, but the Amendment provides that part of the administration expenses, which were intended to be borne by the Wheat Commission, should fall on the Millers' Corporation. If we look at the history of this fund we shall see if there is ever going to be any money in it. The Corporation is to consist of five persons, and starts without a penny. There is no provision for bringing any money into the fund. The first words you have are in Clause 8, Sub-section (3) which says that they shall have the power to borrow money; but it is a very limited power of borrowing. It is a power to borrow:
    "such sums as may be required by them for the purchase of any stocks of wheat which they are required by an order made by the Minister to buy."
    556
    That cannot happen at the earliest until June, 1933, because no order can be made for them to buy anything until then, and it is only a power to borrow sufficient money for the purchase of any stocks of wheat. Look what they will have to do. The price they will have to pay is obviously going to be the top price, because it is a purchase between a willing seller and a willing buyer. It is going to be the top market price because you assume that they are going to buy; and the money they will have to borrow and pay will be on the highest scale. Having borrowed the money they pay it away in the purchase of the wheat, and then they have to undertake the selling of the wheat. They will be selling in an overbought market, because this is wheat which has not been absorbed by the market, otherwise it would not be there for purchase. Therefore, there are no willing buyers and they will have to sell at something less than the market price in order to induce unwilling purchasers to buy. Any business man will see that there is not the smallest prospect of their selling at a profit. There is the moral certainty that they will sell at a loss, and having realised the best price they possibly can and got a sum of money into their account their first duty is to repay the money that has been borrowed; and there will not be enough to do this. Certainly there will be nothing left with which to pay administration expenses. Those who originally drafted this Clause realised that probably there would be a loss because at the end of Sub-section (4) it is provided that:
    "any loss shown by it the said accounts to have been incurred in any cereal year upon such sale or disposal as aforesaid shall be recoverable from millers in the like proportion."
    9.0 p.m.
    What is it that is recoverable from the millers? It is not the administration expenses. It is the amount of the loss incurred by the sale of the stock. Think what that means. We have heard large sums mentioned, but what ever the loss is it has to be divided amongst some hundreds of millers and recovered from them. What is going to be the expense of recovering vast numbers of small sums from a great number of millers all over the country? Someone will have to make up the accounts and send them out, and do the collecting, and it is a very ex-

    557
    pensive matter; yet all these expenses are thrown upon a Corporation which has no means whatever of paying. Even if they recover from the millers the loss incurred in buying and selling they have no power of recovering administration expenses. As far as I can see this Corporation is bound to be insolvent from the start. They cannot realise sufficient to pay the amount borrowed, and if they are successful in recovering the loss in buying and selling from the millers there is no provision to enable them to recover their administration expenses, which will have to be borne by a Corporation which has nothing. Who is going to loan money to the Corporation in these circumstances? And on what terms will they be able to borrow money? They have no resources. They have no Government guarantee behind them; and I cannot see where they are going to borrow the money. At what rate of interest will they be able to borrow money? The question of the solvency of this fund needs far more serious consideration than it has received. It is a step in the wrong direction to take part of the expenses which were to be borne by the Wheat Commission and throw them upon an insolvent fund which can never be in a position to pay.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I quite appreciate the argument submitted by the hon. and learned Member for Altrincham (Mr. Atkinson) and there seems to be no reply to it. But despite that fact we welcome the Amendment. Originally the consumer was to meet all the expenses of the Wheat Commission and the Millers' Corporation, and we agree that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman is a slight casement of the burden on the consumer. The millers will have to pay their own expenses of buying and selling. I do not agree that the interpretation submitted by the hon. and learned Member for Altrincham is the only interpretation that can be read into this Clause. If the Flour Millers' Corporation have the power to borrow such sums as they may require for the purchase of any stocks of wheat there is nothing in the Clause to confine them to the month of June in which to exercise these borrowing powers. I appreciate the point of the hon. and learned Member that this may not include administration expenses but I am quite certain that
    558
    my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bristol, East (Sir S. Cripps) could argue that it would include administration expenses in the buying and selling of this stock.
    Perhaps I misunderstood the hon. and learned Gentleman, but I thought his point was that the Millers' Corporation would start the year with no funds available; that, as the first Order could not be made until the end of the cereal year, they would be for 12 months without any funds at all, and, that, when the end of the cereal year arrived, and the Minister issued an Order insisting upon the Millers' Corporation purchasing 12½ per cent. of the surplus output, then and only then, their borrowing powers would come into operation. The hon. and learned Member suggests that they will be able to borrow such sums as will be necessary to cover the buying and selling, but not to provide administrative expenses. That I understood to be the hon. and learned Member's point but I submit that the words "shall have power to borrow such sums as may be required" are all-inclusive and would cover the point referred to by the hon. and learned Gentleman. I submit that those words would permit the Millers' Corporation to borhow all such sums as may be required at the end of the cereal year, provided that the Minister has embodied in one of his regulations permission for the Corporation to obtain the sums necessary for administrative purposes.
    We recognise that this Amendment is well-intentioned, and we readily support it. We see no reason why a Millers' Corporation who have been brought together to perform for themselves a real lucrative piece of business should invite the consumers of bread to pay their administrative expenses. The Minister may be charged by some of his colleagues in days to come with being responsible for forming this fund. We have heard about a certain political party being no longer a party but a fund. It may be argued in future that the right hon. Gentleman in this Bill formed a fund out of which came the co-operative organsation which was the starting point of the nationalisation of the milling industry and so forth. From that point of view we see value in the Clause and in the Amendment. We have no apprehensions as to the Millers' Corporation being able to carry on their good work. We welcome the Amendment of

    559
    the Minister as at least enabling the Corporation to pay some part of the administrative expenses during the time they are carrying out their duties. Since the millers will be in a national combine and will be called upon annully to purchase a certain amount of wheat which they know they can always dispose of, whether in poultry food, or wheat meal, or cattle food or for some other purpose, I am sure they will not buy that wheat at a price which they know is going to result in a loss to themselves. Their profits over a long period of time indicate that they know how to conduct their business. They have been conducting their business profitably on individual lines for such a long period that I am convinced, that when they are brought together as a Millers' Corporation, and are co-operating, there will be no doubt about the profitable nature of the business which this Bill will enable them to do.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 9.—(Provisions as to administrative expenses.)
    Mr. ATTLEE: I beg to move, in page 14, line 1, to leave out Sub-section (1).
    The question of the administrative expenses of the Flour Millers' Corporation which is dealt with in this Clause is a little complicated. We have already had an Amendment by the right hon. Gentleman in reference to administrative expenses incurred by the corporation in connection with the purchase and disposal of stocks. I do not know exactly what will be the other administrative expenses "incurred for the purposes of the Act" by the corporation. I suppose that in order to find out exactly what those expenses would be one must look to the Second Schedule of the Bill. There we find that the corporation is to have power to hold land, for instance, and that it has to make arrangements for the registration of all millers of flour who make application, and so forth. I can understand that if we are setting up a big milling trust, if this corporation is going to be the instrument for unifying the whole operation of milling in this country, there may be administrative expenses but we do not know exactly what
    560
    these "other administrative expenses" are to be. I presume that, at all events, it will be necessary for the corporation to have officials. But when you are setting up machinery whereby you are going to solidify into a trust a large portion of the milling business, I cannot for the life of me see why the expense should be borne by the purchasers of bread and flour. That is what happens if you make the expenses payable by the Wheat Commission.
    The right hon. Gentleman's last Amendment as I say dealt merely with administrative expenses in connection with the purchase of stocks. He would simplify the whole Bill if he cut out Subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 9 as we are asking him to do. We have had no explanation of why the expenses of the Flour Millers' Corporation should be borne by the purchasers of bread. It may be possible to make out a, case for subsidising the farmer at the expense of the body of consumers, but I do not see why it should pay for the Flour Millers' Corporation. The right hon. Gentleman has already rejected an Amendmnt which we brought forward with a view to making it perfectly clear that the verbal agreement with the millers already referred to should be written down in black-and-white, and made enforceable, and I have no doubt that under this Bill a certain amount of money is going to stick in the hands of the flour millers. But they ought to be made to bear the expenses of their own corporation. I would like the right hon. Gentleman therefore to explain two things. First, what will be the nature of these administrative expenses and what is the amount likely to be; secondly, why should the expenses of the flour millers be borne by the consumer?
    Earl WINTERTON: I may be wrong, but should not the word "also" come in after the word "and" in line 3, so that it would read:
    "Subject to the provisions of this section the administrative expenses incurred for the purposes of this Act by the Flour Millers' Corporation and also, if by-laws"—
    and so on. Otherwise, what does the Subsection mean?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The expenses of the Flour Millers' Corporation will fall under two heads. First of all, there are the primary administrative expenses, which will be those incurred to enable them to

    561
    comply with their obligations under Clause 1, Sub-section (3), to buy unsold stocks of wheat if so ordered by the Minister. That is what we have been discussing just now. It is not intended that these administrative expenses shall he paid by the Wheat Commission, and Amendments have already been moved in Clause 8, Sub-section (3), and there is a subsequent Amendment to be moved in this Sub-section, the effect of which will be to exclude such expenses from the expenses under this Sub-section. The other necessary administrative expenses of the corporation will include those connected with the registration of millers, which is part of this scheme, under the third paragraph of the Second Schedule, and the election of members of the corporation, under the sixth paragraph of the Second Schedule. It is intended that these costs, which will not be large, shall be payable by the Wheat Commission as comprising an essential element in the machinery of the Bill. I think it is clear that those should properly be so charged, because they are essential to the setting up of the machinery.
    In addition, the Wheat Commission might, under by-laws to be approved by the Minister, under Clause 4, Sub-sections (1), (2) and (3), enter into arrangements with the Flour Millers' Corporation whereby the corporation might accept responsibility, first of all, for arranging for the audit of the deliveries of flour, and, secondly, for the collection of the relevant quota payments due to the Commission. Both those headings may or may not be made, and they may or may not prove to be acceptable to the Millers' Corporation and the Minister, but if they are, the expenses which are properly incurred by the corporation would be payable by the Commission, which would otherwise have been relieved of that amount of expenditure.
    Clause 9, Sub-section (2), provides that the Flour Millers' Corporation shall first submit to the Wheat Commission estimates of their administrative expenditure for approval. They have to frame estimates and have them submitted for approval, and under Clause 9, Sub-section (4), these estimates will form part of the estimates of their own administrative expenses, which the Wheat Commission are required to submit to the Minister for approval, and no administrative ex-
    562
    penses may be incurred by the Wheat Commission except in accordance with the estimates approved by the Minister. The Bill does not actually require flour importers to form an association for the purpose of assuming collective responsibility for quota payments, but if such an association is formed and approved, it will be subject to by-laws made by the Commission, with the Minister's approval, under Clause 4, Sub-section (3), and its administrative expenses will come before the Wheat Commission and the Minister for approval in the same manner as the expenses of the Millers' Corporation. There is thus, I think the House will agree, complete control by the Commission and the Minister of the administrative expenses of the Flour Millers' Corporation, and indeed of any association of the importers, if such is formed, and these will be payable by the Wheat Commission. The control, I think, will be adequate and will ensure that only such expenditure as is approved by the Minister and will lead to the satisfactory administration of the fund shall actually be incurred.
    My Noble Friend the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) has asked me whether I think the wording of Sub-section (1) will adequately cover what we desire to achieve. I think it does, though, of course, like all drafting problems, it is open to question from one angle or another. All that I can say to my Noble Friend is that I have been advised by a qualified draftsman upon this subject, but that I will draw the attention of the draftsman to the criticism which has been made, and that we will look at it, and if we think it can be improved and yet retain what we believe to be desirable, we will adopt that method. Under the circumstances, I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: As regards the last point, I think the right hon. Gentleman has the right words here, because if the word "also" were added, it would not read sense, as I read it. Because of the very large sentence included between the commas, it would make rather a clumsy drafting sentence. May I not suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that this Clause was quite sensible so long as it was provided that the w hole of the Flour Millers' Corporation administrative ex-

    563
    penses should be paid by the Wheat Commission? One can understand that this rather elaborate procedure may then have been necessary, but now that he has taken out the provision that 99.9 per cent, of those expenses will be paid by the Flour Millers' Corporation themselves, is it really worth leaving in the whole of this clumsy procedure, in order to deal with the 0.1 per cent. that is left over?
    The two items that he has mentioned, the register and the election of some members of the corporation, could hardly occupy the time of one lady typist for more than about three hours in the year, and is it really worth while that there should be a budget statement as to the lady typist's hours and that it should be submitted to the Wheat Commission, that there should be an arbitration before the Minister as to whether it is right, and, if it is not right, that the Wheat Commission should alter it? Will not the right hon. Gentleman do what we suggest is the sensible thing to do, having himself, as regards what obviously is the vast bulk of the administrative
    expenses, decided that the corporation are to pay them themselves, and say, "Let the other little bit go in"? Nobody could object, and it would save the whole of this very complicated procedure as regards budgets and approvals and so on. I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman would save money if he did it, and that the Flour Millers' Corporation would bless him for leaving them alone.
    Earl WINTERTON: The Sub-section, as it stands, may be in legal phraseology, but, from the point of view of pure grammar, I am still convinced that it is wrong. That may not be a desideratum which should be sought when drafting an Act of Parliament which is to be interpreted in the courts, but, though I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for his promise to look into the matter, I do think it is desirable to ensure as far as possible the observance of grammar in an Act of Parliament.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 241: Noes, 39.

    Division No. 121.]

    AYES.

    [9.26 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (P'rtsm'th, S.)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

    Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Charlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Christie, James Archibald

    Golf, Sir Park

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Colville, John

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Atkinson, Cyril

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Greene, William P. C.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Cooke, Douglas

    Grimston, R. V.

    Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Bernays, Robert

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Hartland, George A.

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Davies, Ma], Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle)

    Borodale, Viscount

    Denman Hon. R. D.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Donner, P. W.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Drewe, Cedric

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Eastwood, John Francis

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Howard, Tom Forrest

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Elmley, Viscount

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Caine, G. R. Hall-

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Jennings, Roland

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Castle Stewart, Earl

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Kimball, Lawrence

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. sir Hugh

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Ormiston, Thomas

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Soper, Richard

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Pearson, William G.

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

    Penny, Sir George

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Leckie, J. A.

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Petherick, M.

    Stones, James

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

    Storey, Samuel

    Levy, Thomas

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Lewis, Oswald

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Templeton, William P.

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Loyat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Ramsden, E.

    Thompson, Luke

    Mabane, William

    Ratcliffe, Arthur

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Mac An drew, Capt. J, O. (Ayr)

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    McEwen Captain J. H. F.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

    McLean, Major Alan

    Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    McLean, Or. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James Philip

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Maitland, Adam

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Robinson, John Roland

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Hopner, Colonel L.

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Rosbotham, S. T.

    Weymouth, Viscount

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Salmon, Major Isidore

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Muirhead, Major A. J.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Womersley, Walter James

    Munro, Patrick

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Wragg, Herbert

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Scone, Lord

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    North, Captain Edward T.

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Captain Austin Hudson and Mr. Blindell.

    Nunn, William

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    O'Connor, Terence James

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Edwards, Charles

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Lunn, William

    Batey, Joseph

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Briant, Frank

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Buchanan, George

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Price, Gabriel

    Cape, Thomas

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Hirst, George Henry

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cove, William G.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Cowan, D. M.

    John, William

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Daggar, George

    Kirkwood, David

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lawson, John James

    Mr. Gordon Macdonald and Mr. Groves.

    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, in page 14, line 7, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that the administrative expenses incurred by the Flour Millers' Corporation in connection with the purchase and sale or disposal of any stocks of wheat which they are required by an Order made by the Minister to buy shall not be payable by the Wheat Commission."
    This Amendment speaks for itself. It is connected with a matter already dealt with in Clause 8, page 13, line 19, which requires the administrative expenses incurred by the Flour Millers' Corporation in connection with the purchase and sale
    566
    or disposal of unsold stocks of wheat under an Order made by the Minister to be kept in a separate account. These expenses will not be payable by the Wheat Commission, and are therefore not deductible from the deficiency payments.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The following Amendment stood upon the Order Paper:
    In page 14, line 8, to leave out Subsection (2).—[Mr. Attlee.]
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: With regard to this Amendment, I shall be glad if the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr.

    567
    Attlee) will explain its purpose. I take it that it is consequential on the one that has been discussed.
    Mr. ATTLEE: It is consequential, and I do not move it.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I beg to move, in page 14, line 13, after the word "year," to insert the words:
    "being expenses which are so payable as aforesaid."
    This is consequential upon the Amendment which we have just passed.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 14, line 31, to leave out the words "whether before or."
    The implications of this Amendment can be seen very quickly. Sub-section (3, a) states
    "any expenditure certified by the Minister to have been incurred, whether before or after the commencement of this Act, in bringing this Act into operation."
    We seek to delete the words "whether before or" for we see involved in this paragraph all sorts of uncanny expenditure which hitherto has never been embodied in any Parliamentary Measure. It is well known that some sort of quota scheme was in contemplation 12 months ago. All sorts of work was done by departmental officials and by the ex-Minister of Agriculture in attempting to produce a wheat quota scheme which could be made applicable. We are entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether all the expenditure incurred during the past 12 months by his departmental officials and the people with whom the ex-Minister and the present Minister of Agriculture came into contact during the discussions, are to be included under this paragraph? It is not unfair to argue that, if these words are carried to a logical conclusion the expenses of every interview which the Minister has had with millers, farmers and accountants, and indeed with every section of the community with whom he may have had any conversations, can be met.
    We see the possibility of all the expenses of the ex-Minister being paid, since we understand that the taxpayer is not to be called upon to meet any expenses at all. Before the right hon. Gentleman produced the Bill he must
    568
    have consulted Customs officials for the purpose of drafting Clause 5. All the expenditure with regard to those conversations will form part of the expenditure in bringing this Bill to the House of Commons. The words of the paragraph clearly imply that the expenses of very first conversations that ever took place with millers, farmers, bakers middlemen and merchants can be included. If that is not what the Minister intends, it is easy to remedy the difficulty by deleting the words suggested. If the expenses of the millers, the farmers and of every section of the community who in any way contributed towards producing the Bill are to be met, the expenses for the first year will be abnormal, and the first year's deficiency payment will be reduced to a small minimum.
    Such retrospective legislation for the payment of administrative expenses is quite unusual. We are not unwilling that all expenses incurred from the passing of the Act shall be borne by the consumers of bread, but we are unwilling to allow all the expenses incurred by all sorts of officials and interests during the past several months while the Bill has been in course of construction. Our reading of the language in this paragraph is that all the expenses incurred will form part of the expenses to be met out of the quota payments. In that case, we can see that the deficiency payments will be reduced very considerably, because of the large increase over and above what is contemplated as the normal expenses. If these words must remain, there should be some words limiting the period of the retrospective payments, and some limiting terms to indicate to whom the payments are to be made. Otherwise, the words are so wide that no one will know where the expenses are to stop.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I think it may shorten the discussion if I explain that there is no intention on the part of the Government to do anything such as the hon. Gentleman fears, nor would the Minister certify anything of that kind. We see a very wide and clear distinction between the phrases "bringing the Bill before the House of Commons" and "bringing the Act into operation," and the words in the Bill are "bringing the Act into operation." It so happens that this is the only Sub-section which directly and mainly affects my own Department.

    569
    The principal object of inserting the words "whether before or after" is that the Minister may, without delay, certify expenditure in connection with getting the necessary office accommodation, through the Office of Works, for the Wheat Commission, together with a certain amount of office furniture and stationery, so that the moment the Wheat Commission is appointed and the Orders have been issued by the Minister there will be no delay in beginning operations.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: While I readily accept the statement of the intentions of the Government, if the right hon. Gentleman will look at the last two lines of the Memorandum he will see that it states:
    "No charge upon the Exchequer or local rates will be created by the Bill."
    If that is the case, clearly the expenses incurred by the right hon. Gentleman's Department and the Ministry of Agriculture will have to be met from the only source from which such expenses can be met if they are not to be a charge upon either the Exchequer or the rates. Where will all the money for the expenses incurred in the production of the Bill be found? That point, at least, calls for explanation. It seems to me that any expenses incurred by the right hon. Gentleman's Department or the Minister of Agriculture could be regarded as expenditure for the purpose of bringing the Act into being.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The hon. Member reads the explanatory Memorandum of the Bill as if it were a part of the Clauses which will eventually be the Act. Of course, that is not so. The word "Bill" is used in the Memorandum, which explains the general contents of the Bill. What is perfectly clear is that there will be no charge on the taxes or the rates to meet this expenditure upon office accommodation, furniture and stationery for the purpose of bringing the Act into operation, and it will be met out of the Wheat Fund. The Minister, upon the establishment of the Wheat Commission, will earmark the necessary preliminary expenditure upon bringing the Act into operation.
    Mr. ATTLEE: The right hon. Gentleman has cleared up this matter to a, certain extent, but I would point out that
    570
    we are being asked to depend to a great extent on good intentions. In a speech delivered yesterday we had a considerable disquisition upon good intentions, their use and abuse, by an expert on the subject. We are here asked to do something which is not usually done in a Bill; we are providing that certain payments shall be made and also providing a special means of taxation. This is analogous to the case of the Road Fund. We are providing for certain things to be done and for certain people to bear the expense, in this case the consumers. The Clause refers to expenditure
    "certified by the Minister to have been incurred, whether before or after the commencement of the Act, in bringing the Act into operation."
    The right, hon. Gentleman says that is not their intention, and I do not suppose it is their intention, to include this other expenditure which has been referred to.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The expenditure would not be certified.
    Mr. ATTLEE: Yes, but at the moment the over-riding object of this Government is to secure economy, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will try to get every expense he can taken off the taxpayer in his Budget and put on to the consumers, and here will be a chance for him to do so. Under the Clause as it stands a great deal of the cost of the Ministry of Agriculture and all these elaborate negotiations with millers—any number of meetings, refreshments, and all that kind of thing—can be held to have been necessary to bring the Act into operation. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to provide housing accommodation and stationery for the Wheat Commission, let him say so, and let us have a Fourth Schedule setting it out.
    Mr. PRICE: I regard this Amendment as a very important one. Whether or not it is the intention of the Minister to abuse this power, the Clause as it is worded does permit him to charge certain expenditure in promoting the Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Well, let us read it:
    "Any expenditure certified by the Minister to have been incurred, whether before or after the passing of this Act, in bringing this Act into operation."
    [HON. MEMBERS: "This Act."] I suggest that this is a very dangerous procedure to introduce. Many Ministers

    571
    have held office who are fanatics. I think there are some on the Treasury Bench now. According to this Clause, a Minister could incur expenditure on some ideal he might have which Parliament has not sanctioned, and put that expenditure on to the fund. Meetings have been held between the Minister and farmers, supporters of the National Government, and other people associated in the promotion of this Measure. This procedure was not adopted when the Coal Mines Act was passed and a subsidy was given to the mining industry. It was definitely stated that no subsidy should be paid or expenditure incurred upon machinery to operate that Act until the Measure had actually been passed by Parliament; and to give a Minister power to certify expenditure to come out of the fund before the Measure is in operation is a very dangerous proceeding. It is a retrospective payment in respect of negotiations that took place before Parliament gave consent to the Measure, and is a dangerous proceeding.
    Not only is it dangerous in the case of the Wheat Bill, but it may form a dangerous precedent, because there may some a time when we shall occupy the benches opposite—I think there will—and we could encourage this procedure with, probably, beneficial results to our party. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] But we have never encouraged, and I hope that we shall never encourage as long as I am a Member of the party, propaganda built on fraud. This is an agreement to make provision for expenditure incurred on negotiations behind the scenes in promoting a Bill that puts a tariff on the loaf of the poorest of the people. We say that it is a very dangerous procedure, and we want to keep even the National Government straight as far as we can.
    Mr. CROOM-JOHNSON: I rise only for the purpose of seeing that the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has a quiet night. There is really no difficulty about this at all, if we keep clearly in mind two quite different words having quite different meanings in the English language. One is the word "existence" and the other is operation. "If the Clause had said that the Minister was to have the power to certify expenditure which had been incurred in
    572
    bringing this Act into existence, there would have been much point in the observations of the hon. Member, but this Sub-section is perfectly correctly drafted and it provides quite plainly and in quite clear language that what is to be dealt with by the Minister's certificate is expenditure which is incurred in bringing the Act into operation. We have heard the Minister's explanation as to what is proposed to be certified under that provision. It is quite plain that the Minister has no power at all to certify expenditure which had been incurred in bringing the Act into existence, but, once it is passed, those things which he has done in order to see that it may be speedily brought into operation, so that the whole scheme can function, can be certified by him. With this explanation perhaps the hon. Member will realise that there is no great constitutional principle involved at all.
    Mr. LOGAN: A Noble Lord told us a few minutes ago, as regards grammar, that in English it was quite correct, but in the drafting of Bills it would most likely be incorrect. [HON. MEMBERS: "He said exactly the opposite!"] The hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken states what it does mean, and I have to get back to English to find out whether the legal meaning is correct. I find here the expression "any expenditure." I imagine that in English that means all expenditure, subject to one provision which says "if certified by the Minister to have been incurred." To my mind "any" means "all." Therefore it would be quite sufficient if a certificate came along from the Minister to say that expenditure had been incurred; any expenditure would be absolutely correct. I am not giving a legal definition, but an English definition. I take it that any expense that would be incurred before the Act came into operation, unless this deletion was made, would be a charge, but that with the deletion made it could not be a charge.
    Let us get away from legal jargon and get down to rock bottom and know what is really meant. If it is the purpose of the Minister to cover "any expenditure," that is all expenditure, let us know what is the expenditure that he wishes to cover. In the name of common sense let us know from what data he wants us to start. If he wants to cover any speci-

    573
    fied time let us know. We all know that in bringing anything forward expense must be incurred. Let us know what is the expense to be charged, how it is to be charged and whether this is to cover everything appertaining to this Bill. On the one side there is the legal aspect, and then from the same bench comes a contradiction, and we are told that we really do not understand what we are talking about. One can toss a penny up and it is always a double-headed penny. Without any legal phraseology what does the Minister mean by "any expenditure"? To my mind he wants to include retrospective expenditure. I want to know how far back he wishes to go. Can he give us a time limit?
    10.0 p.m.
    Mr. COCKS: I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Croom-Johnson) that the operative word here is "operation," and that this expenditure is to be incurred in bringing the Act into operation. But how is the Act to be put into operation? Are the expenses merely such as the First Commissioner of Works told us, buildings and stationery and stamps and ink? Is that all that is meant by expenditure? It is a very complicated Bill and I want to know. Does it include the printing and publishing of pamphlets in plain English explaining to the various parties exactly what the Act means? Does it mean the expenditure on lectures by grammarians, noble or otherwise, to meetings of farmers explaining what the different provisions mean? Does it include the expenses incurred by lecturers in getting away from these meetings of infuriated farmers, driven off their heads by the complicated explanations given to them as to what the Clauses mean? We want some explanation from the Minister. The Clauses are very loosely drafted, and in bringing forward a Sub-section of this sort we think that the Minister has acted in a very casual way, especially at a time of national economy. It is essential that we get a serious explanation from the Minister now.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I do not want to weary the Minister by talking about certifying, but I am alarmed at what the hon. and learned Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Croom-Johnson) has said. I accept his statement as to the meaning of this proposal in law. If that is so, then the ex-
    574
    penditure which the Minister is going to certify is, apparently, something which he undertook in order to bring an Act into operation before it had been passed by this House. That seems to me to be a monstrous thing. I have never heard it suggested that before the approval of this House has been obtained in regard to a Measure steps are being taken to put it into operation. That is really what is being done. If this were expenditure to bring the Act into existence including things preparatory and necessary documents, it would be quite another matter.
    Mr. RHYS: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman, Sir Charles Trevelyan, the Labour Minister of Education, did exactly the same thing in the case of the Education Bill?
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I do not know that he ever put the Act into operation.
    Mr. RHYS: But the money was expended.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Then I think he was wrong. I am concerned more with the idea that it is apparently becoming the practice to put Acts into operation before the House of Commons has adopted them. If the hon. and learned Member for Bridgwater is correct, then the Minister has already put this Act into operation, and has incurred expenditure in that respect. The right hon. Gentleman is now asking the Committee to pass that as being a proper charge on the Wheat Fund. We certainly protest against any such grossly unconstitutional proceeding.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I think that these indignant speeches are slightly overdone. May I remind the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) that the last Government, in the case of the Agricultural Land (Utilisation) Bill, did exactly the same thing that we propose to do here. Let me be quite frank with the Committee. I do not want to ask for anything which is improper, nor am I asking this Committee to sanction any extravagant, wild expenditure, but bon. Members will realise that we are dealing with a problem, the urgency of which is most important. As soon as this Measure goes through both Houses of Parliament, which cannot be until after Easter, there lies ahead for those responsible for this work duties of very great importance, and it is essential that urgent steps should be

    575
    taken to make the working of the Measure as simple and easy as possible. It is solely for that reason that I desire to have the power to authorise and approve the drawing up of regulations, to try to get things in real working order, and to make arrangements which are necessary to make the Act work.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I am not interested in this question as an expert on grammar or on law, but I think an extraordinary position has been taken up by the Minister. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is incurring certain expenditure which the House has not authorised in anticipation of a Bill that this House has not yet passed; he is trusting that the House will put the Bill through, and that it will also be put through another place. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Agricultural Land (Utilisation) Bill which got slightly mangled in another place. I do not know whether any expenditure under that Bill will have to be met by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, but that is one danger in front of you. The House of Lords may reject this Bill. When I heard some of the speeches of the representatives of the agricultural interests, I thought that perhaps the Lords might have a go at this Bill, because they represent agriculture.
    There is another and a greater danger. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is on the warpath—horrible thought—and during the Easter recess he
    may be in communication with the Liberal associations. Then the dreaded moment will have come, and the Liberal Members of the Cabinet of all the talents will break up. Then who are you to leave to pay for it? We come in with a big majority and we shall be called upon to meet the iniquitous expenditure of the right hon. Gentleman. In view of all the political uncertainties, first of the House of Lords, and secondly of this tottering Government, whose existence now depends upon whether the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs—who has now taken the oath and who has got 10 days to work his will outside—I think the House had better accept this proposal. Hon. Members opposite may get a surcharge, and if they happen to be the representatives of a local authority, they would be in the cart, like me. The hon. and learned Member for Bridgwater knows a good deal about this business, and I accept what he has said. I think this is what he had in mind when he was so anxious to prove that there was nothing in it. There is a good deal more in it than the hon. and learned Member thinks. I repeat that first the House of Lords may throw out this Measure, and, secondly, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs may throw the Liberals out of the Government, and then where will you be?
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 246; Noes, 41.

    Division No. 122.]

    AYES.

    [10.14 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Cooke, Douglas

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Crossley, A. C.

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Caine, G. R. Hall-

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

    Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley)

    Donner, P. W.

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Drewe, Cedric

    Beaumont, Hn. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Carver, Major William H.

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Bernays, Robert

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Eastwood, John Francis

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Gazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton)

    Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Elmley, Viscount

    Borodale, Viscount

    Choriton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Christie, James Archibald

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Boulton, W. W.

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Colville, John

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)

    Mabane, William

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Everard, w. Lindsay

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    McLean, Major Alan

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Salmon, Major Isidore

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Macquisten, Frederick Alexander

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Maitland, Adam

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Goff, Sir Park

    Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Scone, Lord

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Selley, Harry R.

    Greene, William P. C.

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Ztl'nd)

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Hanley, Dennis A.

    Moss, Captain H. J.

    Somerville. D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Hartland, George A.

    Muirhead, Major A. J.

    Soper, Richard

    Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle)

    Munro, Patrick

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Stones, James

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W.G. (Peterst'ld)

    Storey, Samuel

    Hope, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston)

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    North, Captain Edward T.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Howard, Tom Forrest

    Nunn, William

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    O'Connor, Terence James

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Tate. Mavis Constance

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Templeton, William P.

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

    Pearson, William G.

    Thompson, Luke

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Penny, Sir George

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Petherick, M.

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

    Pike. Cecil F

    Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

    Jennings, Roland

    Pybus, Percy John

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Kimball, Lawrence

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Ramsden, E.

    Weymouth, Viscount

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

    Ratcliffe, Arthur

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    Leckie, J. A.

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Levy, Thomas

    Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Lewis, Oswald

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James Philip

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Womersley, Walter James

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Robinson, John Roland

    Wragg, Herbert

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Rosbotham, S. T.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Commander Southby and Mr. Blindell.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Batey, Joseph

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Morris, Rhys Hopkin (Cardigan)

    Briant, Frank

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Price, Gabriel

    Buchanan, George

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Cape, Thomas

    Hirst, George Henry

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Cove, William G.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Dagqar, George

    Kirkwood, David

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lawson, John James

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Edwards, Charles

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Mr. Cordon Macdonald and Mr.

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Lunn, William

    John.

    Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. Price), to leave out paragraph (b), is covered by a previous decision of the Committee. The
    578
    next Amendment, in the name of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps), to leave out paragraph (e), is out of Order, as it would require a Financial Resolution.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: I beg to move, in page 15, line 10, to leave out the second word "Minister," and to insert instead thereof the words "Commons House of Parliament."
    It is a rather remarkable coincidence that the more important Amendments to the Bill fall to me to be moved. I think, however, it is a coincidence; it is not because I know very much about the Measure that I have been asked to move any Amendment at all, but I will do my very best. I have, however, the consolation that I seem to know as much about it as anyone else, and, consequently, any mistake that I may make may not be found out. Sub-section (4) says:
    "The Wheat Commission shall, not less than one month before the beginning of each cereal year, prepare an estimate of their administrative expenses during that year and submit the estimate in such form as may he required by the Minister for approval by the Minister."
    I think that is giving too much power to the Minister. The object I have in view is to raise what hon. and learned Gentlemen have been talking about all day—a real, definite constitutional issue. I am not learned in the law. Nobody would believe me if I said that I was. I have been in this House long enough to see two or three things happen. I was very much disturbed in regard to one Bill, and I want to give the history of that Bill as an illustration of what is happening practically under all Governments in this country. Hon. Members will notice that we are setting up under the present Bill a Wheat Commission, and once we have set up that Commission and passed this Bill into law, Parliament will have practically finished with the whole of the transaction. In fact it is a very important factor in the Bill we are now discussing. Let me remind hon. Members of what has already happened. I was here when the British Broadcasting Corporation was set up, and at that time everybody thought that Parliament would be entitled to discuss the work of the British Broadcasting Corporation in detail. We found out later on that we could not do so. I also remember the time when the Carlisle liquor scheme was passed through this House.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Hear, hear!
    Mr. DAVIES: I am sure that I have one supporter, anyway. I will not go into the pros and cons of the liquor trade.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Why not?
    Mr. DAVIES: It is a fact that Parliament_ passed Measures dealing with the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Carlisle liquor scheme and handed the authority and control of those two institutions over to committees, and, in fact, Parliament has practically lost control over the whole of their operations. Let me give one or two more illustrations. There is the Port of London Authority.
    Viscountess ASTOR: May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he does not think that the board set up to deal with the Carlisle liquor trade has done splendid work?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman is only entitled to mention the Carlisle liquor scheme to show that Parliament has abrogated its powers, but it is not in order to discuss the merits or demerits of the Liquor Control Board.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is not an hon. Member entitled to illustrate the need for this board to be either within or without Parliamentary control, or to argue the success or non-success of such a body, to give an illustration of how successful it can be?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: If we were to discuss the Carlisle Liquor Board, the discussion might go on for the rest of the evening, and it would be far apart from this Bill.
    Mr. DAVIES: I am entirely with the Deputy-Chairman, and I shall follow his orders to the last word. [Interruption.] My views about the Carlisle scheme are not germane to the issue this evening.
    Viscountess ASTOR: You introduced it.
    10.30 p.m.
    Mr. DAVIES: As I said, we are merely parting with powers under the Bill, and we shall never be able to recover them. It is a very important point which the right hon. Gentleman ought to bear in mind. I will give another illustration. I remember the Betting Control Board. I was on the Committee upstairs. [Interruption.] I have never put a shilling on a horse in my life. When I was on the Standing Committee upstairs I felt positive that every Member of the Committee was under the impression that when we were giving power to the Racecourse

    581
    Betting Control Board the operations of that board would come before Parliament, and that we should be able to discuss them. I have asked on several occasions from more than one Government whether we could discuss the operations of that board, and on all occasions we have been denied that opportunity. Therefore, we say that unless the Government accept our Amendment the Wheat Commission will be entirely outside the control of Parliament. On an issue like this, where we are asking the consumers to give money to the bakers, the bakers to give money to the flour millers, and the flour millers to give money to the farmers, the operations of the Wheat Commission ought to be subject to Parliamentary control.
    We have been helping the Government to put this Bill into shape and I am certain that had it not been for our efforts it would not be workable in some particulars. I will give another example in support of my case—the Electricity Control Board. In spite of Conservative domination in Governments, and the Labour party being in office on occasion, we are definitely developing in this country separate bodies controlling the affairs of the nation, without any Parliamentary control. We ought to be very careful what we do in this matter. I am afraid that once this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament and we try to put questions in this House in order to find out how the scheme is operating, we shall be ruled out of order. Mr. Speaker will say that the Wheat Commission has had its powers delegated to it by Parliament and that no question is permissible in regard to its operations. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will accept the Amendment.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The Amendment means, in effect, that the Wheat Commission's Estimates shall be presented to the House of Commons for approval. As the expenses of that Commission will not be borne by public funds, they cannot be considered in Committee of Supply. The proper occasion for their discussion will no doubt be on the Vote for the Salary of the Minister of Agriculture or the salaries of the other Ministers who are mentioned in the Bill. Those Ministers will be jointly responsible for the supervision of the operations of the Wheat Commission and for the approval of the Estimates. I am satisfied that
    582
    particulars of the Commission's expenses will always be obtainable by question and answer in either House of Parliament. Therefore, I think the anxiety of hon. and right hon. Gentleman opposite is not as real as they imagine. I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept responsibility for the estimates of the Wheat Commission?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The estimates for the operations of the Wheat Commission will have to be submitted to me for approval, and also the rules and orders which they make. Therefore, there will be a very large measure of control.
    Mr. JONES: Will it be open to this House at any given moment on the appropriate day to move a reduction in the estimates presented to the Minister by the Wheat Commission, or must we accept a statement from him?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The proper procedure will be to raise the matter on the salaries of the Minister of Agriculture or of the other Ministers who are responsible.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I hope the Amendment will be accepted. The right hon. Gentleman has said that if the Opposition desire the work of the Wheat Commission can be discussed on the Vote for the salary of the Minister of Agriculture—
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Not only the Opposition—
    Mr. BUCHANAN: The right hon. Gentleman knows that Supply days are usually confined to the Opposition. I agree that one does not know who the Opposition are from one day to another, because the supporters of the Government change like the weather, but the right hon. Gentleman knows that it is not the supporters of the Government who usually criticise the salary of Ministers. Therefore, no section of his own supporters will bring up the work of the Wheat Commission. When we discuss the salary of a Minister the right hon. Gentleman knows very well that the Debate usually embraces scores of questions, whereas the Amendment definitely asks that before the recommendations of the Wheat Commission become law they must have the approval of the House of Commons. The difference,

    583
    therefore, is this, that when we discuss—if the Opposition desires—the salary of the Minister of Agriculture it may involve many other subjects, the Amendment, if accepted, means that this particular question must be discussed.
    I agree with the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. R. Davies) that there is a great tendency on the part of all Governments to take matters outside the control of Parliament and give them to outside bodies. I am not arguing whether this is good or bad, but if Parliament is going to do that it should do it in a straightforward manner. Other questions far more important than this have been taken out of the control of Parliament. Recently a book written by an eminent counsel deplored the absence of Parliamentary control from policy and administration. We have the same question cropping up in connection with the Ministry of Labour. Decisions are being given by the umpire, and by courts of referees of immense legal importance and tremendously far-reaching consequences. They are actually giving decisions which are more far-reaching than the Act itself. Without the safeguard of the law courts, without public discussion, without consideration by trained lawyers on both sides. The Labour Government in one of their Acts—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I admire the ingenuity of the hon. Member in trying to raise the question of the means test, but he cannot do so on this Amendment.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I have not yet mentioned the means test and I have no intention of arguing it. I am arguing about the question of outside control.
    Lieut.-Colonel J. SANDEMAN ALLEN: On a point of Order. As there is no charge on the Exchequer, or on the rates, does this matter arise?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I do not quite follow the hon. and gallant Member's point.
    Lieut.-Colonel SANDEMAN ALLEN: There is no charge in the Bill on the Exchequer or on the rates. Does this question, therefore, arise?
    Mr. BUCHANAN: The proposal is to take this matter out of the control of
    584
    Parliament and I am illustrating the objection to that course by mentioning one Measure of the Labour Government—not the means test. They placed the making of conditions for unemployed people right outside the control of Parliament which was a shocking thing to do. The most that can be said for this proposal is that it is less vicious than what the previous Government did but it is no less wrong in principle. It is often argued against the small group who sit here that we have less respect for Parliamentary institutions than others. I often wish that hon. Members really believed in the Parliament to which they are asking other people to pay respect. I believe in Parliamentary work and Parliamentary control. I do not believe in the mock respect which is a matter of bowing and walking out. I believe in real Parliamentary control which goes beyond the ceremonial stage, which means active work and day to day control. I look upon this Amendment as raising the most important principle which the Opposition have raised in this discussion, and I hope that the Opposition will vote for the principle that the affairs of this Commission should be subject to Parliamentary discussion. I object fundamentally to secret business and to trying to pass things through without the full light of Parliamentary discussion and authority.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: The Minister said that the Estimate of the Wheat Commission could be discussed either by question and answer or on his Vote. But how is anybody to know what is in the Estimate? If it is never published to the House of Commons how can anybody start to criticise it? The right hon. Gentleman does not suggest that he should be asked to state what is the Estimate put forward by the Wheat Commission for the current year and that he should give the whole of the Estimate in an answer. The difficulty which we foresee is that, although it may be possible to discuss it on the right hon. Gentleman's Vote, Members can never get the information, unless some provision is made that this information shall be before the House of Commons. I should like to know from the right hon. Gentleman what means he thinks will be available for Members of this House to have access to the estimates which are put before him, in order that they may, if they wish, bring

    585
    forward criticisms of those estimates, because it seems to me an important matter that this body, which will administer perhaps a sum of between £5,000,000 and £10,000,000 and which may spend we do not know what in administrative expenses, should be open to criticism by any Member of the House.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: I wonder whether the speech of the Mover of the Amendment was not delivered under a misapprehension. If the Committee will turn to Clause 6, they will see that all the receipts into the fund and the payments out of the fund, which presumably include the administrative expenses, have to be certified by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and are then laid before Parliament. Therefore, Parliament has complete control over the accounts of the previous year. Sub-section (4) of Clause 9 deals only with the estimates for the administrative expenses of the forthcoming year, and one would imagine that there was ample scope for Parliament to deal with the whole matter in discussing the actual expenditure of the previous year, as laid before the House under Clause 6, Sub-section (3). Anxious as I am to prevent any undue encroachment by the bureaucracy on Parliament, it would nevertheless seem a little unreasonable that the mere preparation of administrative estimates should not remain under the control of the Minister.
    Mr. CAPE: I think the argument put forward by the hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor) is really in favour of our Amendment. If it is right that certain expenditure and certain income should be under the supervision of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, it is also right that those expenses should be subjected to Parliamentary control. At the present time Ministers put in Estimates and Supplementary Estimates for their various Departments of what will be spent, but there is no such provision made for these particular estimates, and I suggest that Parliament should have this control. We are giving away to commissions and committees things over which it is really the prerogative of this Parliament to have jurisdiction, and I suggest to the Minister that there cannot be anything wrong in accepting the Amendment, because if it were carried,
    586
    Parliament would have proper control of what is really public money. After all, we all have to admit that money which will come under the supervision of the Wheat Commission is money that will be derived from the taxation and so on in regard to wheat. Consequently, that money being contributed by the taxpayers in one form or another, ought to be under Parliamentary control. Therefore, I strongly support the Amendment.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: The very eloquent speech made by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) indicated, I think, that he had not taken the trouble to read the Bill before he made it. He suggested that the Bill would take power away from Parliament and put it under a corporation over which there would be no control, but if he will read the Bill Clause by Clause, he will find that nearly every vital decision is in fact to be taken by the Minister and, therefore, can be criticised on the Vote for his salary. If he will read Clause 7, he will find that in any event in most years the administrative expenses of the Commission will indirectly come before Parliament, or can be brought before Parliament, because if the Minister varies the quota payment, on the ground that there has been a surplus or a deficiency in the previous year, the whole of the expenses come under review.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Surely we are going to have some further reply from the Government. This is the first speech I have made in the discussion, and, apparently, no reply is to be returned. That is Tory fairness. It will certainly be "No" as far as I am concerned, and I shall take an active part on this Bill in that case.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I want to make it clear that there is no public money involved, and therefore it cannot come on in Supply. The point that the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) made cannot therefore arise. These are decisions for which the Minister is responsible, and there are precedents in other Acts for dealing with this matter in exactly the same manner. There can be a very full discussion upon the salaries of the three Ministers concerned. In these circumstances, I think the House will see that we are acting on precedent—that of the Electricity Commission is one—and, in view of the fact that there

    587
    is no public money involved, I think we are in order in taking the line that we have taken.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: Would the right hon. Gentleman tell us how we are to know what is in the Estimates if we wish to criticise them?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I think a great deal of that information can be obtained by question and answer.
    Question put, "That the word 'Minister' stand part of the Clause."
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN collected the voices, and stated that he thought that the Ayes had it.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: On a point of Order. I went on saying "No" each time you put the Question. Am I not entitled as a Member to say "No," and are you not entitled, Mr. Chairman, to take the Noes? Am I not entitled to a Division, even if it be to stand up, as long as I continue to say "No," and I am duly heard? Should not that be taken notice of, and am I not entitled at least to have the privilege of standing up in that connection?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Member desires the privilege of standing up, I am prepared to give it to him.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, I am prepared to take it.
    Question put, "That the word 'Minister' stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee proceeded to a Division.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN stated that he thought that the Ayes had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it, two Members only who challenged his decision having stood up.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I beg to move, in page 15, line 18, after the word "Commission," to insert the words:
    "with the consent of the Minister and subject to such conditions as he may impose."
    This Amendment stands with the next Amendment in line 20, to leave out from
    588
    the word "expenses," to the end of the Sub-section. These Amendments are moved exclusively for the purpose of clarity, and to avoid several lines in the Sub-section which appear to be redundant. If the Amendments were accepted, the Sub-section would read:
    "The Wheat Commission with the consent of the Minister and subject to such conditions as he may impose, hall have power to borrow such sums as may be required by them for the purpose of defraying their administrative expenses."
    If the words following the word "expenses" were deleted, these loans could be obtainable only by the consent of the Minister, and under such conditions as the Minister lays down. The purpose of the Minister would be fulfilled, and a number of redundant words would be disposed of. The Wheat Commission ought not to be permitted to secure loans of any kind without having first of all obtained the consent of the Minister. If, however, the Sub-section remains as it is, the Wheat Commission can secure loans without even consulting the Minister and only after the Minister had been consulted would it be necessary for him to lay down certain conditions in regard to repaying the principal and interest of loans. If the Amendments were accepted, the Sub-section would be much clearer and the same object would he obtained.
    11.0 p.m.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The two Amendments referred to would require that the consent of the Minister should be obtained to any borrowing in any circumstances. I am clear that the right proceeding is that which is provided for in Sub-section (5) of Clause 9, which requires that, the consent of the Minister should be obtained to any borrowing by the Commission which will not be repaid by them before the end of a cereal year, and might, therefore, not be of a temporary character. Such control is important, and it is completely assured. As to the other points, all the administrative expenses of the Commission will require prior approval by the Minister, and I think it is really asking more than is essential for proper control if the Commission have to seek further approval to borrow a purely temporary loan from the Bank of England, because, after all, they can only borrow within the bounds of the temporary expenditure which has already been approved by the Minister. As long as it is kept closely to that, and will not

    589
    include any loan which goes beyond the cereal year, I think we achieve all reasonable control.
    Amendment negatived.

    CLAUSE 10.—(Power of Wheat Commission to obtain information.)
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I beg to move, in page 15, line 39, after the word "any," to insert the words
    "dealer in wheat, flour, or wheat offals."
    This Amendment is moved with the object of extending the category of persons already covered by paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1). At present it includes only carriers, that is, all railway companies, warehousemen or their servants or agents, who are required to give the Wheat Commission certain particulars. We feel that if the Wheat Commission are to have these wide powers they may as well be extended to cover everybody concerned, and we suggest the addition of these fresh categories.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I agree with the purpose of this Amendment, and shall be prepared to accept it, though I think it may involve some small consequential Amendments on the Report stage.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir S. CRIPPS: I beg to move, in page 16, line 8, after the word "and" to insert the words
    "subject to any legal objection."
    Paragraph (b) deals with various matters ort which the Commission have power, by notice in writing, to require certain registered growers and others to provide information. With these words inserted, the Commission will have power to require any registered grower or officer of any corporation or any person whom the Commission have reasonable cause to
    "believe to be a miller or an importer of flour, or a person carrying on business as a dealer in wheat or flour, to furnish such information as may be specified in the notice, and, subject to any legal objection, to produce to any auditor appointed by the Commission such accounts, books and other documents as may be necessary."
    The point of inserting the words of the Amendment is that there may be reason why some of these documents should not be produced to an auditor. It is in
    590
    order to protect any such person from the possible consequences of being ordered by the Wheat Commission to do something which is contrary to his legal duty that we suggest the inclusion of these words.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am advised that these words are not necessary. The only documents that can be called for are such documents as may be necessary to enable the auditor to check the information given to him. If a person refused to produce such a document and was prosecuted under Sub-section (2) for not producing it, it would be open to him to put forward the defence that the document was not necessary, and if the court held such a defence to be good he would not have to produce the document. The legal objection referred to in the Amendment can always be taken before the court, and there is nowhere else that it can be taken. The Amendment, therefore, is unnecessary.
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. LOGAN: I beg to move, in page 16, line 16, after the word "premises," to insert the words "other than domestic."
    The Sub-section would then read:
    "Any person authorised under the last foregoing sub-section to exercise any functions may at all reasonable times upon production of his authority on demand enter on any land or premises other than domestic, and take samples of any wheat or flour found thereon."
    The reason for the Amendment is to make the Sub-section more explanatory and less inquisitorial. Paragraph (b) leaves an ambiguity. I do not want such power to be allowed to any officer who is making inquiries. I do not want him to be able to go inside domestic premises.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: We think that the Amendment is not necessary. There is no fear that the inspectors will look into a miller's private larder for a sack of 280 lbs. of flour, or in a farmer's bedroom for 4½ cwts. of wheat. Farmers and millers do not hide these things unless they are the sort of people who practise fraud on a very elaborate scale, in which case they are very soon detected in the ordinary way. I really do not think that there would be any danger of the kind anticipated.
    Mr. LOGAN: If one reads the Subsection, it will be found that there are many things which can be put inside the house, and that is why we wish to insert the words "other than domestic." I know my proposal might be redundant under ordinary conditions, but when men come to visit houses with authority they come in with all the power of the law, and poke their noses into places where they ought not to go. I think it is such a simple proposition that it ought to be accepted, and, if it meets the broadmindedness of the Minister, I hope he will consent to insert those words.
    Mr. MALLALIEU: The point is not what a farmer can do, but what an inspector may do. I view the words of this Clause with very grave apprehension. There is practically no place into which an inspector might not poke his nose, and, without wishing presently to wash our prospective dirty linen in public and to go into any greater detail now, I wish to say that I shall support this Amendment not only on the ground of public decency but of public chastity.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I think the domestic premises of the farmer ought to be protected. If an inspector has power to visit all parts of the farm and the warehouse, I think we ought at least to protect the house, because an Englishman's home is supposed to be his castle, as we have heard so frequently from hon. Members opposite. I remember the Debate on the Kettering Gas Bill in which we heard frequently from hon.
    Members opposite that an Englishman's home was his castle. In this case, the right hon. Gentleman says that it does not matter, and that the Amendment is out of date. I hope the Minister of Agriculture will see the wisdom of accepting the Amendment, and preserving the farm from a Nosey Parker inspector of whom we have already too many. Where we require more inspectors we cannot get them, and where we require fewer the Government propose to give us more. These inspectors ought not to be allowed to trespass upon the private domestic premises of any farm. The Government may be making friends of the farmers by passing this Bill, but the farmers' wives will not love them if they give the inspectors power to enter upon their domestic premises. [Interruption.] I am reminded that the inspectors will be the servants of the Wheat Commission, and will not be subject to Parliament, or even to the right hon. Gentleman. The members of the Wheat Commission will be able to deal with these inspectors. If it be true that, as has been said so frequently, an Englishman's home is his castle, the domestic part of his home ought to be preserved, and we shall insist either upon this Amendment being accepted or upon pressing it to a Division.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 36 Noes. 216.

    Division No. 123.]

    AYES.

    [11.17 p.m.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Morris, Rhys Hopkin (Cardigan)

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Buchanan, George

    Hirst, George Henry

    Price, Gabriel

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Daggar, George

    John, William

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. David

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Kirkwood, David

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Edwards, Charles

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon, George

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Lunn, William

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Mr. Duncan Graham and Mr. Groves.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bernays, Robert

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)

    Blindell, James

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Anstruther-Gray, W. J.

    Bossom, A. C.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Boulton, W. W.

    Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

    Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Caine, G. R. Hall-

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley)

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Carver, Major William H.

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Kimball, Lawrence

    Held, William Allan (Derby)

    Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

    Robinson, John Roland

    Christie, James Archibald

    Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Rosbotham, S. T.

    Colville, John

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Leckie, J. A.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Leech, Dr. J. W.

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Copeland, Ida

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Russell, Hamer Field (Shef'ld, B'tside)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Levy, Thomas

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Salmon, Major Isidore

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham.)

    Donner, P. W,

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Drewe, Cedric

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Scone, Lord

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Selley, Harry R.

    Eastwood, John Francis

    Mabane, William

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Elmley, Viscount

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    McKie, John Hamilton

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    McLean, Major Alan

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Magnay, Thomas

    Soper, Richard

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Spencer, Captain Richard A.

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Stones, James

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Storey, Samuel

    Goff, Sir Park

    Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Graves, Marjorie

    Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Greene, William P. C.

    Moreing, Adrian C.

    Templeton, William P.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Muirhead, Major A. J.

    Thompson, Luke

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Munro, Patrick

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    North, Captain Edward T.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Hanley, Dennis A.

    Nunn, William

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    O'Connor, Terence James

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    O'Donovan, Dr. William James

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur F.

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G A.

    Weymouth, Viscount

    Hops, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston)

    Palmer, Francis Noel

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)

    Pearson, William G.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Penny, Sir George

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Howard, Tom Forrest

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Petherick, M

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hackney, N.)

    Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Womersley, Walter James

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Wragg, Herbert

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)

    Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Hadcliffe)

    Ramsay, T. B, W. (Western Isles)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Ramsden, E.

    Major George Davies and Lord

    Jennings, Roland

    Ratcliffe, Arthur

    Erskine.

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. COCKS: I wish to ask the Minister to explain two points on Sub-section (2) which we have been discussing. In many parts of the Committee there is a feeling that this Clause is rather unfortunately worded, and perhaps the Minister would be good enough to consider redrafting it between now and the Report stage. Farmers ought to know that they are to be placed under an authority in this Clause, which seems to combine
    594
    something of the attributes of the Spanish Inquisition and of the Klu-klux Klan. This is a sort of thing that I do not wish to see established in this country, and hon. Members opposite are supporting this method. Under the Clause, any person who is an inspector of this board or authority can come upon a farmer's premises—his house or grounds—at any reasonable time, and take samples of wheat and ask for books, accounts and documents. If he is impeded in any way, the farmer is subject to heavy penalties, and may even receive three months' imprisonment.

    595
    In regard to the words "any person," has the farmer no defence against any kind of person entering his premises? The inspector might be an individual for whom the farmer had a dislike. He might be a, person with whom the farmer had had trouble in the past, who had insulted the farmer's daughter, or made eyes at his wife. He might be a man whom the farmer had previously threatened to put into the duck-pond or to set his dog on. This objectionable fellow might come up to the farmer's premises and on seeing the farmer would say, "Ha, ha!" The farmer would have to throw open wide his portals and show him anything he might want to see—books, documents and other things specified in the order. If he impeded him in any way the inspector would say that he must do exactly as he wanted him to do or he would get three months' imprisonment. I suggest that the fanner or miller ought to be given some protection and be entitled to say to the authority, "You propose to send so-and-so, and I will not have him here. He is not persona grata, and you had better send somebody else." He ought to be entitled to protection. The second point is, that the inspector has to enter at any reasonable time. I suggest that the reasonable time should be one which is reasonable to the farmer and not merely to the inspector. The inspector should not come, for example, at a time when the farmer is in the middle of a. 10-acre field, or in the market town, or away on private or business affairs. He should not come without notice. The farmer should be entitled to receive 10 days' notice that the inspector intends to come, and he should also be entitled to say that the time suggested is not a convenient time, and to suggest another time. Otherwise, the man may come at any time, whether it is convenient or not. Those two safeguards ought to be put in somewhere, and, if necessary, the Clause should be redrafted between now and the Report stage. If they are not inserted the operation of the Act will not be so easy as it would otherwise be. It may become unpopular in certain
    596
    places, and the inspector may be greeted not with politeness but with pitchforks. In order that that should not occur I ask the Minister to give us an assurance on these two points.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am certain that these regulations ensure, in the first place, that notice in writing shall be given, and that the entry shall be at a reasonable time. The inspector will not go unless he receives a report that there is some difficulty in connection with the carrying out of the duties under the Act. It is right that these powers should be given, and I do not anticipate that there will be any misuse of them.
    Mr. COCKS: If notice is given to the farmer will he be entitled to write back and say that it is not a convenient time and to suggest an alternative time?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have no doubt that if that were not done for the pure purpose of evasion it would be accepted.
    Mr. COCKS: Will he be able to take exception to the inspector himself, to say, for instance, that there has been some trouble between him and the inspector and to suggest that some other person should be sent?
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Sir J. Gilmour.]
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
    It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.

AGRICULTURE.
  MALTING BARLEY (CUSTOMS DUTY).
  MALTING BARLEY (CUSTOMS DUTY).
  DAIRY HERDS (DISEASE).
  DAIRY HERDS (DISEASE).
  MILLING OFFALS (EXPORT).
  MILLING OFFALS (EXPORT).
  TRUSTEE SECURITIES (NEW SOUTH WALES LOANS).
  TRUSTEE SECURITIES (NEW SOUTH WALES LOANS).
NATIONAL FINANCE.
  CUSTOMS DUTIES.
  CUSTOMS DUTIES.
  TAXATION (REVENUE).
  TAXATION (REVENUE).
  KENYA (AGRICULTURAL DEPARTMENT, STAFF).
  KENYA (AGRICULTURAL DEPARTMENT, STAFF).
ROYAL NAVY.
  ADMIRALTY OFFICE.
  ADMIRALTY OFFICE.
  FIRST SEA LORD (HOUSE ALLOWANCE).
  FIRST SEA LORD (HOUSE ALLOWANCE).
  SECONDARY SCHOOL HEADMASTERSHIP, SHEFFIELD.
  SECONDARY SCHOOL HEADMASTERSHIP, SHEFFIELD.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  RELIEF SCHEMES.
  RELIEF SCHEMES.
  TRANSITIONAL PAYMENTS, KETTERING.
  TRANSITIONAL PAYMENTS, KETTERING.
  WOMEN POLICE.
  WOMEN POLICE.
  PRISON STAFF, PARKHURST.
  PRISON STAFF, PARKHURST.
  ROBBERY WITH VIOLENCE (CORPORAL PUNISHMENT).
  ROBBERY WITH VIOLENCE (CORPORAL PUNISHMENT).
  CHINA INDEMNITY FUND.
  CHINA INDEMNITY FUND.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

ROYAL SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS BILL. [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I beg to move that Standing Order No. 105 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the Hove Pier Bill and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Bill. One reason for this is that the other day I put down the Hove Pier Bill for Second Reading, but I was informed by a noble Lord that he wished possibly to raise objections to the Bill on Second Reading, and therefore I asked your Lordships to postpone it. I understand now that the objection has been removed, and nobody wishes to oppose the Second Reading. With regard to the other Bill the reason is the usual one that we had to wait until the Attorney-General's Report was received.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 105 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bills, and that the Bills be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bills read 2a accordingly.

SEA FISHERIES (PROVISIONAL ORDER) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.

FINANCIAL EMERGENCY ENACTMENTS (CONTINUANCE) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT SNOWDEN): My Lords, this Bill, to which I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading, is a very short and very simple, and, I think, a non-controversial measure.
942
It proposes to enact the continuance of the whole of one measure and a part of another measure which were passed last September at the time that this country departed from the gold standard. They were largely precautionary measures, and I am very glad to be able to tell your Lordships that, in respect of one of those measures at any rate, no occasion has arisen for giving effect to its provisions. One part of this Bill proposes to re-enact a subsection of the Gold Standard (Amendment) Act, which was passed on September 21 last year. The subsection is very short and is self-explanatory, and, with your Lordships' permission, I will read it to you:
"It shall be lawful for the Treasury to make, and from time to time vary, orders authorising the taking of such measures in relation to the exchanges and otherwise as they may consider expedient for meeting difficulties arising in connection with the suspension of the gold standard.
"This subsection shall continue in force for a period of six months from the passing of this Act."
That period of six months will expire on Monday next and that is the reason why we are being asked to pass a measure extending the operation of this subsection.
Your Lordships will notice that this subsection gives to the Treasury very wide and general powers, but the only power that has been exercised under this subsection is the issuing of a Treasury Order in regard to the purchase of foreign exchanges. Your Lordships will remember that when that important step the abandonment of the gold standard was taken, there was a good deal of fear as to what might happen. Nobody was in a position to foresee precisely or even at all clearly what the consequences of that momentous step might be. I was responsible at that time for the action of the Treasury, and almost the moment after the Bill became law I issued the Treasury Order. That Treasury Order prevented as far as it was possible, except for certain specific purposes, the transfer of British funds abroad by the exchange of sterling for foreign currencies. It prohibited the acquiring of foreign currencies either directly or indirectly except, as I said, for two or three specified purposes. The first was for normal trading requirements. The second was for contracts which had been

943
entered into before the suspension or the abandonment, for the time being at least, of the gold standard. The third was reasonable travelling or other personal expenses. Those were the only three purposes for which foreign exchange could be obtained.
I may say in regard to the third of these, reasonable travelling or other personal expenses, that I made a public appeal at that time asking British subjects to refrain as far as possible from travelling unnecessarily abroad and an appeal to British subjects who might be living abroad to return as a patriotic duty to this country. I am very glad to say that that appeal seems to have met with a very considerable response. Of course, the effect of an appeal wears out in time, and I notice that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in another place renewed that appeal a day or two ago, and pointed out that the need for restricting foreign expenditure or expenditure abroad still existed as a precautionary measure. I have explained to your Lordships the only action that was taken under the powers of that subsection, and I would like to take this opportunity, as I was, as I have said, responsible for the issue of that Order, of expressing my own personal thanks to the banks and the public for the very hearty and willing co-operation we have had in the carrying out of that Order.
It was felt last week by the Treasury that there was not that urgency for the existence of the Order which existed at the time it was issued and it was for the time being suspended. Your Lordships may ask why, if it has been found possible to suspend the operation of that subsection, you should be asked to pass a measure continuing these powers to the Treasury. Of course, the explanation of that is quite clear. Still we do not know what may happen and we are asking your Lordships to continue this power even though it may not be required. But it may be required and it is important that the power should still remain in the hands of the Treasury. The position, as I have said, has happily changed very much since last September and we have for the moment no reason to suspect—indeed, quite the contrary—that conditions will be found less favourable. But I repeat that it is important that we should be armed with any necessary
944
powers to deal with conditions or circumstances which may arise because there are still, as your Lordships know, a great many unsolved world financial and economic problems, including Reparations. So long as the world is in such an unsettled state economically, industrially and financially he would not be a wise prophet who would venture to forecast with assurance what the future holds for us.
This measure is asking that the power should be extended for twelve months, and your Lordships might ask why twelve months when six months ago we considered six months sufficient. The explanation of that is that at the end of six months from now Parliament will probably not be sitting. That six months will expire about the middle of next September, and we are asking your Lordships, therefore, to extend these powers to the Treasury for another twelve months.
I may perhaps add one word more about the working of the Order to which I have referred. It allowed complete freedom for the purchase of exchange either spot or forward for normal trading arrangements, and it did not, therefore, in the least hamper legitimate trade. Its real purpose was to prevent the export of capital from this country. I think I have now explained that part of the Bill which proposes the renewal of those powers that were given to the Treasury six months ago. It has been urged in another place that there has been an embargo during the operation of this Order upon the issue of foreign loans in this country. That is not the case. It is true that there have been no foreign issues in this country, and for the very simple reason that if such an issue had been promoted it is most unlikely, in the present state of the money market in London and other financial circumstances, that any response would have been given to such a foreign issue. When things get better and the London market is once more in a position to take up overseas issues, it is very likely that they will find ample scope for their activities in demands from the home market and from the Dominions.
Now I turn to the second part of this Bill, which proposes to re-enact the Foodstuffs (Prevention of Exploitation) Act. There was a widespread fear when we passed the Gold Standard (Amendment)

945
Act that there would be a phenomenal rise in prices, and that, perhaps, advantage would be taken of that by unscrupulous traders to raise prices beyond what was reasonable. That arose from the fact that we are to a very great extent dependent for our necessary food supplies upon imports from all parts of the world. Five-sixths o£ our wheat, half our meat and four-fifths of our cheese and lard have, under present conditions, to be imported from overseas, and it was thought necessary to take precautionary measures in order to prevent as far as possible a rise in prices. At that time the President of the Board of Trade got in touch with the large trade interests of the country, and he received from them their hearty co-operation It was with their approval that this emergency legislation, which gave the Board of Trade power to deal with unreasonable rises in prices or what is popularly called exploitation, was passed. But we were from one point of view in a rather fortunate position in regard to this matter, because the traders of this country at that time had very large and adequate stocks. International conditions, too, favoured us in this respect, because some of the countries from which we derive large supplies of foodstuffs followed sterling, and that has prevented an increase of prices to any extent in those commodities which we obtained from these sources.
The position during this six months in regard to foodstuffs has been so normal that the Board of Trade has not found it necessary in any single instance to exercise its powers. There have been, I understand, a few individual complaints made of what was alleged to be undue profiteering, and all those cases were investigated, but in not a single case was there found to be any substantial justification for the complaint. The Board of Trade is still keeping in touch with the representatives of the food industry, both wholesale and retail, and it is receiving the hearty co-operation of those interests. We have at the moment no reason to think that the position will not continue to be satisfactory, but, for the reason that I submitted to your Lordships in regard to the other part of this Bill, the Government is anxious that these powers should still remain in its hands to be used should the necessity arise.
946
Perhaps your Lordships would be interested if, in a sentence, I give you the figures of the rises which have taken place in wholesale and retail prices since this country went off the gold standard. I think no one would have dared to prophesy six months ago that prices would remain at the low figure at which they are to-day. The average wholesale price of all foodstuffs it; up by about 9 per cent. over the average on the 1st of September, 1931, but it is lower by about 10 per cent. than the average for the year before, 1930. For all wholesale prices—the figure I gave to your Lordships just now referred to foodstuffs only—the rise is about 8 per cent. In regard to retail prices there is, as your Lordships know, a very wide margin between wholesale and retail prices. There are reasons for that, either justifiable or non-justifiable, into which I need not enter this afternoon beyond saying that the costs of distribution in the retail trade are of necessity much higher than they are in the wholesale trade. The index figure of retail prices of foodstuffs is 29 as compared with 28 for September of last year—that is over the basic figure of 100 in July, 1914. So one might say that retail prices of food have remained during the last six months practically the same as they were on September 1 last year. That, I think your Lordships will agree, is very satisfactory.
Notwithstanding this, I could not put before your Lordships, on the experience of the last six months, any justification for the extension of these powers if we had an assurance that all the dangers which led to the Government putting them on the Statute Book last September had disappeared, and we cannot take any risk in this very uncertain world and in these very uncertain times. For that reason we are asking your Lordships to pass this measure. I have to conclude by moving that this Bill be read a second time. I shall move later the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX, and I will then give a brief explanation of the reason why that is necessary.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Snowden.)
LORD PONSONBY OF SEULBREDE: My Lords, before my noble friend who sits beside me rises to make some re-

947
marks upon this measure and on the interesting speech which we have just heard from the noble Viscount the Lord Privy Seal, I desire to call your Lordships' attention to the circumstances under which this Bill is being discussed. As the noble Viscount said in the conclusion of his remarks, Standing Order No. XXXIX is to be suspended in order that in the course of the next half hour this Bill may pass through all its stages. I do not rise to make any protest or any complaint whatsoever. Nor do I rise to attach any blame, certainly not to the noble Viscount who has just addressed the House, nor to the noble and learned Viscount who leads the House (Viscount Hailsham) and who I am sorry is still incapacitated by illness from attending. I merely want to call your Lordships' attention to the manner in which this House is being treated by the present Government.
In the original Act at the end occurs the following sentence:
"This subsection shall continue in force for the period of six months from the passing of this Act."
Now everybody at the Treasury knew that this subsection would expire on March 20. The Chancellor of the Exchequer knew that this subsection would expire on March 20. The Bill was not a controversial measure. It could have been introduced into the House of Commons weeks ago and it could have gone through the normal procedure in your Lordships' House. I am within the recollection of your Lordships, but the noble Viscount the Lord Privy Seal was not here at that time and perhaps would like to hear how the original Act was passed through your Lordships' House. That was on September 21. The Bill had not been introduced even into this House and a special Motion was made that Standing Orders Nos. LIV and XXXIX be read out. On that there was a brief debate. After the debate the sitting of the House was suspended and then the Bill was introduced. The Second Reading was taken, the suspension of Standing Orders No. LIV and XXXIX was agreed to, the Committee stage was negatived, the Third Reading agreed to, and the Royal Assent given, all between a quarter to eleven and eleven o'clock at night. That was the way in which the original Act was passed through your Lordships' House.
948
I do not complain at all. I think that in these days of speeding up it is an admirable idea and, as your Lordships' House is considered evidently by the present Government to be a moribund institution which does not count, there is no reason why this procedure should not be continually adopted. In fact, if I were able to move an Amendment it would be that Standing Order No. XXXIX should be suspended for the remainder of the Session; because what happens now, my Lords? Those of your Lordships who attend the sittings of this House regularly know that I am speaking the truth. We come here day after day and after a few moments during which the Standing Orders are gone through we go away. Then suddenly we are told that there is a crisis, that there is an emergency, and this procedure is adopted. We hurry through Bills in a short space of time. Black Rod is despatched in hot haste to another place. The Sergeant-at-Arms and the Speaker hurry here. Everybody, watch in hand, is looking to see that the thing is completed in the right time, and then we go home.
It is not a very dignified form of procedure. I do not complain, but I think that your Lordships ought to have your attention drawn to it. Standing Order No. XXXIX was suspended under the Labour Government on many occasions, but we erred in our courteous desire to consider your Lordships' convenience and to see that your Lordships had every opportunity of full debate. That is not to be the method of the present Government. The present Government are going to throw these measures at your Lordships' House at the last moment. Already we have had the Abnormal Importations (Customs Duties) Act. On November 20 Standing Order No. XXXIX was suspended for that and it was put through all its stages. Then there was the Import Duties Bill on February 29. The same procedure was adopted. As I pointed out just now, there was no occasion for this procedure whatsoever in the case of the present Bill. It was merely neglect on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see that full time was given to both Houses to consider this measure, as I should have thought it ought to be considered, in a constitutional way. I notice

949
that yesterday in another place the Prime Minister gave notice that the Isle of Man (Customs) Bill and the Tanganyika and British Honduras Loans Bill have both to be got through before the Easter Recess, so we shall have a couple more occasions on which Standing Order No. XXXIX will be suspended next week in order that in hot haste we can get those measures through.
I think it is a very good procedure. I think that, considering the way this House, is regarded in the public eye and by the House of Commons and by the present Government, the more speedily we get through our work the better, but I did feel that on this occasion when there was so little reason for the suspension of the Standing Order, that your Lordships ought to look round and note the manner in which the present Government are treating your Lordships' House. I believe that in the House of Commons there is a body sitting in order to reform this House. I do not know how long it will be before they withdraw their heads from that hornets' nest, but at any rate the respect that I have always thought traditionally should be shown to your Lordships' House is very noticeably absent under the present régime.
LORD DANESFORT LORD DANESFORT rose.
LORD MAELEY: My Lords, I do not propose in the few minutes during which I desire to occupy the attention of your Lordships' House to deal with the measure actually before the House, but to remind your Lordships that, as the noble Viscount the Lord Privy Seal has pointed out, only one Order has been made under the Gold Standard (Amendment) Act and no action at all has been taken under the Act dealing with exploitation by retail shops. The Order which was made under the Gold Standard (Amendment) Act was actually made on September 22 and was withdrawn—
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK rose.
LORD MARLEY: Unless the noble Viscount has a question to ask I do not propose to give way.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I think the noble Lord is most discourteous.
LORD MARLEY: It is very discourteous on the part of the noble Viscount to interrupt, but if he has anything to say I hope he will say it.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: The noble, Lord, Lord Ponsonby, has made certain remarks quite outside the measure before your Lordships' House, and the noble Lord, Lord Danesfort, proposed to reply to those remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Marley, sitting on the same side of the House as the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, would not give way to him so as to enable him to reply to those remarks. I rose because I wished to point that out.
LORD MARLEY: The noble Lord's suggestion will no doubt be taken into account. As far as I am concerned I am dealing with the Bill.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I beg to move that the noble Lord, Lord Marley, be no longer heard.
Moved, That the noble Lord be no longer heard.—(Viscount Elibank.)
LORD MARLEY: I am dealing with the Bill before the House, and I propose to deal with it in the ordinary way.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I rise to a point of order. I do not want to intervene in this particular discussion, but I think it is important that the procedure of your Lordships' House should be regularly conducted. I do not want to enter into the present question as to which noble Lord ought to address your Lordships, but the noble Viscount behind me has made a Motion which is perfectly orderly in your Lordships' House and which must be put from the Woolsack if it is persisted in. I rather hope that the noble Viscount will not press his Motion. Personally I should desire that the noble Lord on the Front Bench opposite should address your Lordships on the matter in hand, though it might have been more becoming perhaps if the noble Lord, Lord Danesfort, had been allowed to speak at the moment he rose. As matters stand I hope that the order of the House will be pursued in the ordinary way and that the noble Lord in possession will be allowed to proceed. If, however, the noble Viscount behind me persists in his Motion it must be put.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: In view of what the noble Marquess has said I will withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, I have of course no wish whatever to go against the ordinary procedure of the House. The noble Lord, Lord Danesfort, as far as I understood, was not going to reply to this particular Motion; he actually rose before Lord Ponsonby to reply to the portion of the Motion before the House which will be put after the Second Reading. Then I should have thought would have been the occasion to deal with the subject of the remarks of Lord Ponsonby.
As I was saying when I was interrupted only one Order has actually been made under the Gold Standard (Amendment) Act which is included in the present Bill. The Order under that Act was made on September 22 and was withdrawn on the 3rd March, a fortnight ago. There are no proposals, we are told, to re-impose that Order of the Treasury and there are no new Orders proposed at all. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, dealing with this Bill in another place on March 11, alleged that it was merely a formality and that the Government do not anticipate for a moment that we shall require to use it at any time during the twelve months in which it will be available. It seems to me difficult to explain the rush and urgency which have involved this House in the necessity for putting through all the stages of the Bill in one day. It has been said that this House is a mere Committee of the Tory Party. Certainly the House does seem to accept the mere word of the Government that rush and urgency are necessary, when in point of fact this could have been re-enacted after Easter without the slightest difficulty, as it is merely the confirmation of a subsection in the Gold Standard (Amendment) Act which could have been re-imposed at any time at your Lordships' pleasure.
The noble Viscount pointed out that the powers given to the Treasury are very wide and very general. That is so. Our complaint is not against these powers, but that the powers have not been used. We complain that there is no sign of any deliberate and enlightened monetary policy on the part of the present Government. We have seen monetary policy left very largely to the Bank of England. We have seen, as the result of the Cunliffe Committee, a deflationary policy pursued by this
952
country. We have seen the failure to adopt the recommendations of the Genoa Conference of 1922. Finally, the precipitate return to gold in 1925 had the effect of anchoring on to this country not only the deflation pursued at that time internally, but the further deflation due to the maldistribution of gold throughout the world.
The result has been the disastrous fall in commodity prices during the past ten years, and the fall in prices of the past ten years has been largely responsible for the volume of unemployment from which this country has suffered quite apart from other countries which, during the first eight of those ten years, did not have anything like the same volume of unemployment. This unemployment and the financial policy which has been pursued have led to a lowering of wage rates by £750,000,000 a year. Sir Josiah Stamp, lecturing only a few days ago, pointed out that we had transferred £200,000,000 sterling of purchasing power each year from one class to another, and he reminded his audience that that had had a disastrous effect on the general body of spending in the country and was particularly a cause of the increase of luxury importations with which the present Government have attempted to deal. The result has been that social and industrial unrest which the late Sir Alfred Mond, before he was Lord Melchett, put down as entirely due to the return to the gold standard and the financial policy of the Government.
There is no sign that the present Government are making any attempt to alter a policy which has resulted in a decline in national wealth estimated to be in the neighbourhood of £500,000,000 a year. One result of this falling price level has been to make, those who are fortunate enough to draw incomes from fixed interest bearing securities considerably bettor off. I have a calculation before me which shows that a man who had £10,000 a year in 1920 was rather more than twice as well off in 1928. The calculation is in a pamphlet which was written by the present Lord Privy Seal. That means that this policy which is not being altered by the present Government has resulted in these unfair redistributions of the national income which we have seen over the last ten years. The day before yesterday the Commissioners of In-

953
land Revenue issued their Report for the year ended April, 1931. In that Report we see that the Surtax payers have increased from 100,000 to 103,000 and that the assessment at April 30, 1931, shows an increase over the previous year on Surtax income from £555,000,000 to £570,000,000. Such is the wealth of the wealthier section of the community which has resulted from the policy of falling prices that, although the Treasury estimated that Surtax receipts for that year would be £64,500,000, the receipts have actually amounted to just under £68,000,000.
The country is now off gold. We are under a managed currency, and the internal commodity price level of the country is within the direct control of the Treasury and the Bank of England, and yet there is no sign of any enlightened use of the powers which it is proposed this afternoon shall be extended for another twelve months—powers by which the Treasury may make these special Orders. During the past few months we have had first of all a panic outcry of the danger of going off the gold standard. We have been told that the pound would be worthless, and we have seen the result of that cry—the fact that it proved to be absolutely untrue; there was never the risk that the Treasury or the Bank of England told us existed in that matter. We went off gold, and since then the bank rate has been kept far too high for too long a period. The result has been that industry has been hindered from extending and expanding itself. Now we have a bank rate being lowered by I per cent. or half per cent, every few days, but the damage, if damage it be, of encouraging foreign short-term deposits has already been done. The noble Viscount told us how pleased he was, and how satisfactory it was, that the price level had been deliberately kept down, and was in fact still falling. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, speaking in another place, said that falling prices, retail and wholesale, were—these were his words—" a matter of congratulation."
Fiduciary issues were not increased, as usual, at Christmas, but were kept at £275,000,000. Usually there is an increase at Christmas in order to allow for additional Christmas trade. It was proposed, and it was discussed in the newspapers,
954
but it was not actually put into effect. The Times, to-day, publishes the price level, and shows that on March 1 the cost of living was four points below what it was a year ago, and a point lower than it was on February 1, and that food prices are five points lower than a year ago, and two points lower than on the 1st of last month. This matter is dealt with in an exceedingly important article in the Midland Bank Review for March of this year, and they say, with regard to recent monetary developments, that perhaps the most hopeful feature of the world outlook is this question of monetary policy. But they add:
"Unfortunately, while official announcements have expressed a determination to avoid any marked rise in sterling prices, they have not so specifically recognised the perhaps even stronger desirability of avoiding any further fall. It should surely by now be apparent that the road to final ruin is by way of falling prices, and that the only way out is to take up a firm, immovable stand against a continuance of the trend. For this reason it is even more important to arrest the decline than studiously to avoid the slightest tendency towards a rise."
Surely we ought to have from the Government a statement as to whether they intend to use the powers which your Lordships will grant to them this afternoon, or other powers, to carry out the recommendations of a body so important as the Midland Bank, and to secure that we do not suffer from this disaster of a continuation of falling prices.
Those of your Lordships who are interested in industry know that there is a diversity of interest between finance and industry in this country, and therefore it is undesirable that it should be left to the sole judgment of the banks as to what monetary policy should be pursued. The Macmillan Committee have recommended not a stabilisation of the price level at the present rate, which they characterise as disastrous. The Macmillan Committee have recommended that there should be a rise in the price level to the level at which prices stood in 1928, and a policy of gradual credit expansion would, they say, result in increased production and in more employment—in fact we might take a lesson from the proposals now being tried out by the United States of America, of a continuous credit expansion, to assist industry in a time, of the greatest difficulty. The result would be a higher standard of living for the people

955
and an increase in national wealth, with the further effect of distributing national wealth in a way fairer to all sections of the community, and not merely giving to one section of the community, and that a very fortunate one, a greater and increasing share in the national wealth, which is now the case.
If these powers are used as they might be used, no one would be more in favour of this measure than we on this side of the House. I know we are very few in numbers, and that we can be prevented from speaking, and have our task made more difficult, by noble Lords opposite. Personally, I have been in the House now for two years and three months and have had nothing but courtesy and friendly feeling until this afternoon. I understand that it is always the right of the Opposition to reply to a measure which is introduced by the Government, and had I not felt certain that that was the right of the Opposition I would never have dreamed of disputing in any way with any other Lord the right of addressing this House. In the special circumstances I think it is necessary that I should make that point in concluding my remarks.
VISCOUNT SNOWDEN: My Lords, I am sure there is no member of the House who would deny to the noble Lord opposite, or indeed to any other member of the House, the right to speak or the right to reply in any debate that takes place, but I am sure that the noble Lord opposite can hardly expect me, in a brief reply, to cover the very wide grounds that he has traversed this afternoon. I should doubt very much whether the questions that he has raised come within the scope of the measure that your Lordships are asked to approve this afternoon. I certainly must ask to be excused from dealing with the monetary policy of the last ten years; from entering into the question of the recommendations of the Cunliffe Committee, or whether it was wise to pursue the policy of deflation, culminating in the return to the gold standard in 1925; then to finish off with an analysis of the distribution of wealth in the country and to argue the question whether the rentier class are better off to-day than they were ten years ago. That, I think, is far too wide a ground for your Lordships to travel this afternoon.
956
But I think the noble Lord who has just sat down is mistaken in assuming that what I described as the wide and general powers given to the Treasury under the Acts still in existence would be sufficient to empower them to revolutionise the whole financial and monetary system of this country. There is one definite reply that, I think, I can, even on my own responsibility without consultation with my colleagues in the Government, give to the noble Lord. He suggested that the Treasury and the Government should adopt the recommendations of such an important body as the Midland Bank, embodied, I believe, in an anonymous article in the monthly Review of that great institution.
LORD MARLEY: For which the bank takes responsibility.
VISCOUNT SNOWDEN: Well, they may take responsibility for it, but it certainly was an anonymous article. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government are not likely to have their financial policy dictated either by the Midland Bank or by any other bank. Any proposals that are made will receive the consideration that they rightly deserve; but I must confess to a certain measure of surprise, remembering the Party with which the noble Lord here is associated, that he should ask the Government to put themselves under the dictation of one of the great banking institutions. I thought it was a principle now in the programme of that Party that the Government should throw off the yoke which is said to hold them in bondage to the great financial and banking interests of this country.
LORD MARLEY: That is, of course, quite true. We adopted the noble Viscount's suggestions in that direction.
VISCOUNT SNOWDEN: The noble Lord referred, in the concluding part of his speech, to the question of prices. It is quite true that there is, I might almost say a very general opinion, but at any rate a very widespread opinion, that one of the main causes of the world depression is the catastrophic fall in prices in recent years, and, following upon that opinion, it is believed that a rise in prices would stimulate trade and have an all-round beneficial effect. But, admitting that, we get at the same time, especially

957
from the Party opposite, what seems to me to be a quite contradictory position. I am quite sure that the noble Lord and the Party with which he is associated would be loud in their complaints if there had been during the last six months a very considerable, increase in retail prices. The policy of that Party, with which I had some association for a number of years, has always been to keep down the cost of living, and, indeed, the Act dealing with food prices that you are asked to continue this afternoon received the support of the Labour Party when it was before the House of Commons six months ago; they were, in fact, anxious to give the Board of Trade far greater powers than were conferred by that Act. But I think it is possible to reconcile these two conflicting views, because, when economists and others talk about the effect of the world fall in prices upon industry they are referring to wholesale prices. Now, as noble Lords are aware, there is a very great disparity between wholesale prices and retail prices, and there is plenty of margin, without causing an increase in retail prices and in the cost of living, for a rise in wholesale prices. In other circumstances, the speech of the noble Lord would have been most important and nothing would have pleased me better than to take up in detail various points that he has raised. But I am afraid that, your Lordships will have to excuse me this afternoon from adding to what I have already said.
It has been mentioned to me since I sat down that perhaps your Lordships did not understand the reference that I made to foreign travel and the exchange of sterling into foreign currency for the purpose of expending foreign currencies abroad. I should be sorry if there were any misunderstanding on that point. I Slid that the appeal that I made six months ago had met with a good response, and I understand—I was not aware of it at the time I spoke—that in some of the newspapers lately reports have appeared that now it was desirable rather than otherwise that British people should spend their money abroad in order to bring about a fall in the value of sterling. Well, the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave a reply to a Question in another place last week, and pointed out that the need still existed for conserving our own resources; because apart
958
altogether from the effect that it might have upon the exchanges, it is from many other points of view desirable that money should not be spent abroad. I hope the noble Lord will excuse me for the very cursory way in which I have dealt with his very interesting speech, and there may on some later occasion be an opportunity for dealing more exhaustively with the matters he raised.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
VISCOUNT SNOWDEN: My Lords, I now beg to move that Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with. This will give me an opportunity of saying a few words in reply to the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. I may explain, however, that the reason why we are asking that this Bill should be passed through all its stages to-day is that the present Acts expire on Monday next, and therefore it will be necessary to pass this Bill through all its stages and get it on the Statute Book to-day. I think the noble Lord, Lord Marley, was mistaken when he made the point that this was no matter of urgency because there was no intention on the part of the Government to take steps under these Acts; but I should like to point out to the noble Lord that if these powers were not re-enacted before Monday they would then lapse, and that would mean that new Bills would have to be introduced. It is in order to avoid that that we are asking your Lordships to pass this Bill through all its stages this afternoon.
I think there is really no great difference between myself and the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, in regard to Parliamentary procedure. I have not long been a member of your Lordships' House, but I have been here long enough to admire the House for one thing, and that is the expedition with which it gets through business, and the absence of any talking for mere talking's sake. If that were the universal Parliamentary practice I am sure that Parliament would stand higher in the estimation of the people to-day than it does. The circumstances this afternoon are exceptional, but I have a good deal of sympathy with the noble Lord. There are times, as he admitted, when expedition is essential. There was an instance last September when the Gold Standard (Amendment) Act had to be

959
passed through your Lordships' House in a few minutes without any opportunity for discussion at all. Well, that was an almost revolutionary hour. It was a most momentous step that we were taking, and it was absolutely necessary, in order to avoid what might possibly have been awful consequences, that the Bill should be passed through at once and the powers given to the Government. But in ordinary circumstances I should be entirely with the noble Lord in objecting to measures coming from another place and being thrown at your Lordships' heads without any opportunity either for their adequate consideration or discussion.
I was glad that the noble Lord did not take up this afternoon the historic position of an Opposition, which is to oppose everything that a Government proposes, however deserving, however urgent and however meritorious it may be, and then, when in the whirligig of politics the Opposition becomes a Government, to adopt exactly the same policy which they had condemned when in opposition. I have stated the reason for asking your Lordships to suspend the Standing Order and to pass the Bill through all its stages this afternoon; and I will go so far as to say that it must not be understood in any quarter that, in doing this, the House of Lords is abrogating its right to have the opportunity to give full consideration and full discussion to measures that are brought before it. I beg to move.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with.—(Viscount Snowden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Standing Order No. XXXIX suspended accordingly.
VISCOUNT SNOWDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the Bill.
Moved accordingly and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly (the EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair): Bill reported without amendment:
Bill read 3a, and passed.

RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, the purport of this Bill may not be very immediately obvious, but I think I can convince your Lordships that its wording does not conceal anything of a very controversial nature. All that it really does is to prolong certain provisions of the Rating and Valuation Act, 1928. Under the Rating and Valuation Act, 1925, it was provided that certain methods in the assessment of properties should be followed. But in 1928 it was felt that if those methods were followed in regard to certain classes of small house property great and unforeseen hardship might result. The question now arises as to whether the methods which were laid down in the Act of 1928 by which those anticipated hardships were alleviated should be followed, or whether we should revert to the original proposals in the Act of 1925 which were temporarily amended in 1928, having regard to the valuation which was due to be conducted in the following year, that is 1929.
This point has been very carefully considered by all the different authorities involved. They are the Central Valuation Committee, the Metropolitan Standing Joint Committee and the London County Council. They have carefully reviewed the situation both individually and in joint conference, and they unanimously agreed to recommend that the special provisions of the Act of 1928 ought to prevail in respect to the next valuation lists in London and elsewhere. What this Bill really does it to give fulfilment to that, unanimous recommendation. I could, if necessary, give your Lordships details regarding the various classes of property which are affected and the reasons why they would be prejudiced in the absence of this Bill. In view of the fact that the recommendations of all the authorities involved are unanimous and the fact that this Bill has already passed through another place without a Division and without criticism, your Lordships may be disposed to accept the conclusion arrived at by those authorities, that the special circumstances still hold good and that a reversion to the 1925 procedure is not really desirable at the present moment. The classes of houses affected are really small properties with a low rateable value. I do not think that any controversy is raised by this Bill, and I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

GAS UXDERTAKINGS BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

SOLICITORS BILL. [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SANKEY): My Lords. I beg to present a Bill to consolidate the Solicitors Acts, 1839 to 1928, and other enactments relating to solicitors of the Supreme Court; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Assent was given to the following Bills:—

Merchant Shipping (Safety and Load Line Conventions),

Veterinary Surgeons (Irish Free State Agreement),

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions),

Destructive Imported Animals,

Financial Emergency Enactments (Continuance),

Sea Fisheries (Swansea) Order Confirmation,

Worksop Corporation.

House adjourned during pleasure
House resumed.
House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock.

SOUTH WALES ELECTRIC POWER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
WALTHAMSTOW CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
HOVE PIER BILL.
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

KIDDERMINSTER GAS ORDER, 1932.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Kidderminster Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.