Sitting of 12 May 1931

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Epsom Urban District Council Bill [Lords].

Hackney Borough Council Bill [Lords].

Gas Light and Coke Company Bill [Lords].

Corby (Northants) and District Water Bill [Lords].

London Squares Preservation Bill [Lords].

Bills to be read a Second time.
Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Wallasey Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Birkenhead and Chepping Wycombe) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Great Marlow Water and Yeadon Water) Bill.

Wallasey Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Birkenhead and Chepping Wycombe) Bill,
To be read a Second time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Great Marlow Water and Yeadon Water) Bill,
To be read a Second time upon Monday next.
Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Herne Bay Water and Southend Water) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Frimley and Farnborough Water and Great Berkhampstead Water) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Aylesbury Joint Hospital District and Stretford and District Gas Board) Bill.

Bills to be read a Second time Tomorrow.
Middlesex County Council Bill [Lords].
To be read the Third time To-morrow.
London County Council (Money) Bill,
Metropolitan Water Board Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Salvation Army Bill (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Monday next, at half-past Seven of the clock.
Public Works Facilities Scheme (West Surrey Water) Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS ACT.
  Mr. DAYasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of meetings held during the previous 12 months by

  961
  the advisory committee appointed under the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927; whether this committee has considered the altered conditions of the film industry since the advent of sound films after the passing of the Cinematograph Films Act; and can he say whether any recommendations have been made to the Government by the advisory committee for the purpose of amending the existing legislation?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. William Graham): Four meetings of the advisory committee have been held during the last 12 months. I understand that the committee have considered from time to time the alterations in the conditions of the film industry consequent upon the advent of sound films, but no recommendations have been made to me as a result of that consideration.
  Mr. DAY: Has the right hon. Gentleman received many complaints from the trade with regard to the operation of this part of the Act?
  Mr. GRAHAM: I cannot say without notice.
  Captain PETER MACDONALD: Is the right hon. Gentleman considering an amending Bill?
  Mr. GRAHAM: No, I have already indicated that at this stage it is quite impossible to promise amending legislation.

  GOLD.
  Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUELasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will issue as a White Paper his completed suggestions with regard to world co-operation in the use of gold and the present concentration of gold in the United States and France which causes difficulties both for those countries and others in which price levels have been depressed?
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: It is clearly not for me to attempt to lay down any complete propositions on this highly technical subject which the hon. Member will find fully explained in the reports of the Gold Delegation of the Financial Committee of the League of Nations.
  Mr. SAMUEL: Was the right hon. Gentleman speaking with definite views when he made a statement at Leith that in
  962
  these questions a great deal depended on world co-operation, and will he say what he meant?
  Mr. GRAHAM: I was speaking with quite definite views. I indicated that a matter of this kind could only be settled by international co-operation, and that statement refers to the two reports of the Gold Delegation.
  Mr. SAMUEL: Was not the right hon. Gentleman just speaking at large?
  Mr. GRAHAM: No, I was making a very precise statement.
  Mr. R. A. TAYLOR: Have there been any recent conversations between representatives of this country and America, and is there any hope of any agreement and concerted action?
  Mr. GRAHAM: I cannot make any statement on that; that obviously is not for my Department.
  Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will not settle this matter purely from the European point of view without consulting the United States and getting their agreement?
  Mr. GRAHAM: I have already indicated that it does not lie with me to settle it at all.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    RUSSIAN BUTTER.
    Mr. REMERasked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the difficulties caused to the vendors of butter by the sale of butter by the Soviet at prices below the cost of production in Great Britain and the Dominions; and what action he intends to take to prohibit these importations?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I am aware that the price of butter, in common with that of other commodities, has recently fallen considerably, but my attention has not been called to difficulties of the nature referred to. As regards the last part of the question, it has already been indicated on several occasions that His Majesty's Government have no power to prohibit or restrict the importation of such goods into this country on the

    963
    ground of the prices at which they are offered, nor do they contemplate taking any such power.
    Sir GEORGE HAMILTON: Has not the right hon. Gentleman seen a photograph in one of the papers to-day, the "Daily Mail," I think, showing 15,000 barrels of Russian butter were landed here below the cost of production in this country—really a slap in the face to Australia and New Zealand?
    Mr. SMITHERS: Has the right hon. Gentleman no thought at all for the British or Colonial farmer?
    Mr. REMER: Is it not a fact that in Russia they cannot get butter at any price?
    HON. MEMBERS: Answer!
    Mr. GRAHAM—
    Lieut. - Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: Surely we can have an answer, Mr. Speaker?
    Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLE: As the right hon. Gentleman rose to answer the question, may he not be allowed to do so?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Not if it has not a bearing on the question.
    Sir G. HAMILTON: I asked a perfectly clear question. In his reply, the right hon. Gentleman said that his attention has not been called specifically to the landing of Russian butter.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is an answer, is it not?

    SHIPBUILDING INDUSTRY.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the depression which exists in the British shipbuilding industry at the present time, and, in particular, to the reduction in the percentage of tonnage built in British as opposed to foreign yards; and whether it is proposed to take any action with a view to improving the position of the shipbuilding industry in this country?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I am fully alive to the serious depression which at present exists in the British shipbuilding industry. Hs Majesty's Government have constantly under consideration the steps
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    which can be taken to improve, by reorganisation and otherwise, the position of this and other industries.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: In view of the figures that have been published in Lloyds List, and of the fact that other competing countries subsidise shipping in some form or other, will not the right hon. Gentleman consider laying down a time of life for all ships in order to give the industry some hope?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I have already indicated in the Debates that we cannot promise a subsidy. As regards the length of life of ships, my hon. and gallant Friend will see very soon a report on obsolete tonnage, to which reference will be made later in the day.
    Major McKENZIE WOOD: Will it assist this industry if we impose import duties?
    HON. MEMBERS: Yes, it will.
    Mr. GRAHAM: No. Sir.
    Mr. MORTasked the President of the Board of Trade if the committee appointed to report on obsolete shipping tonnage has completed its report; and, if so, whether copies will be supplied to Parliament and when they will be available?
    Mr. GRAHAM: The report of this committee will be published shortly, and copies will be available for Members at the Vote Office.

    CHOCOLATE (PRICE).
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. LAMBERT WARDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has yet been able to ascertain what reductions have been made in the retail price of chocolate and cocoa derivatives since July, 1930; and whether they have been commensurate with the fall in the wholesale price of raw Accra cocoa?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: No official information regarding the price of chocolate is available. Information in possession of the Ministry of Labour indicates that the usual retail price of certain well-known standard proprietary brands of cocoa was 2s. 0d. per lb. at the end of July, 1930, and 1s. 9d. per lb. at the end of April, 1931. As recorded in the "Statist," the price of f.f. Accra cocoa,

    965
    f.o.b. Gold Coast, was 34s. 9d. per cwt. at the end of July, 1930, and 19s. 3d. per cwt. at the end of April, 1931.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: What is the cause of the percentage discrepancy in the fall of the retail and wholesale prices?
    Mr. GRAHAM: It would be difficult to go into that in reply to a supplementary question.
    Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: Does it not practically come to this, that the wholesale price of the raw material at Accra has fallen by merely 50 per cent., whereas the retail price of the manufactured article has fallen by only 5 per cent.?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I cannot, off-hand, commit myself to the precise percentages, but it is undeniable that there is considerable disparity.

    PORTUGUESE POSTS (FLAG DISCRIMINATION).
    Sir A. LAMBERT WARDasked the President of the Board of Trade the alterations which have been made in the Portuguese navigation laws; and whether British shipping has now been placed on as favourable a footing as Portuguese shipping?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: The Portuguese Government issued a Decree on 30th January last establishing equality of treatment in regard to maritime and port dues as between Portuguese and foreign, including British, shipping. The necessary Regulations to give effect to this Decree must be issued before the 30th June next. So far as I am aware they have not yet been issued. The rebate is unfortunately still allowed on Customs import and export duties in respect of goods carried on Portuguese vessels.
    Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: May we take it that after the 30th June, if the Portuguese Government implement the understanding that has been arrived at, there will no longer be any difference of treatment of Portuguese and British vessels?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I cannot commit myself as to that. A later question to-day deals with that; certain representations have been made, and I prefer to answer on that question.
    Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDE-MAN: Has discrimination been made against British shipping because the Liberal party has been called after the Portuguese?
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the President of the Board of Trade what countries of the world discriminate against goods carried in British vessels; and what steps are being taken by his Department to mitigate the effects of such discrimination?
    Mr. GRAHAM: The only country which discriminates against goods carried in British vessels as against goods carried in national vessels is Portugal. I received a deputation on 8th May which was widely representative of British shipping, commerce and industry and which urged the necessity of taking strong action to secure the removal of the discrimination. I am giving most careful consideration to these representations, and I fully appreciate the importance of the issue involved.
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: Will the right hon. Gentleman continue his efforts to remove this discrimination by Portugal?
    Mr. GRAHAM: Yes, that is precisely the reply which I gave to the deputation a few days ago.
    Sir ASSHETON POWNALL: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the danger there would be if this Government were to fall out with the Portuguese?

    STEEL AND COTTON INDUSTRIES.
    Mr. REMERasked the President of the Board of Trade when he proposes to announce the policy of the Government in respect of the action to be taken as a result of the reports on the steel and cotton industries?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: As has been stated in answer to previous questions, I will, on the occasion of the Vote of my Department, make as complete a statement as is possible regarding reorganisation in these and other industries.
    Mr. REMER: May I ask whether, pending that statement, the Government will stop the Prime Minister from making speeches?

    CANNING INDUSTRY.
    Mr. R. S. YOUNGasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of firms engaged in the canning industry in Great Britain at the end of 1927, together with their employés; the number of such firms and their employés at the end of 1930 or for any convenient later date; and the total output of the industry for 1927 and 1930, respectively?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I regret that the complete information respecting the canning industry in Great Britain for which my hon. Friend asks is not available. I am, however, sending him certain information respecting firms engaged in food canning in Great Britain.

    BACON PRICES.
    Mr. R. S. YOUNGasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will inquire if any trading, selling, or price-fixing association exists between the English and Danish bacon trades?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: The organisation of the bacon trade is described in a report of 1928 issued by the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. If my hon. Friend will be good enough to tell me more in detail what he has in mind, I will consider the possibility of making further inquiries.
    Mr. HERBERT GIBSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to curtail the activity of all price-fixing associations?
    Mr. GRAHAM: That would probably involve legislation, and I could not promise legislation of that kind.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: What is the Marketing Bill for?

    TARIFFS.
    Mr. MANDERasked the President of the Board of Trade the names of the countries which have accepted definitely an invitation to negotiate individually for tariff reductions; what progress has been made; and when the next meetings of the negotiators are to take place?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: Seven countries, namely, Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Poland and Switzerland indicated their willingness to consider proposals for tariff reductions with a view to the possible opening of negotiations,
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    and proposals on behalf of His Majesty's Government have been put forward accordingly. Detailed negotiations have not yet been started.
    Mr. MANDER: In connection with those negotiations, will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to commit this country for as long a period as possible to a policy of Free Trade?

    INDUSTRIAL SURVEYS (WOOLLEN INDUSTRY).
    Mr. BEN RILEYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has under consideration initiating a detailed survey of the West Biding of Yorkshire woollen industry on similar lines to the survey which he recently announced with regard to Lancashire?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: As I explained in the reply given on the 24th March last to my hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Price) it is considered desirable that at this stage the surveys should be concentrated upon the four areas most severely affected, but other areas are not being overlooked and similar inquiries may in due course be carried out elsewhere.
    Mr. RILEY: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he intends to begin a survey in the West Riding?
    Mr. GRAHAM: Without committing myself to it, and assuming that the other inquiries make good progress, the West Riding would probably be one of the early areas to be included in any further investigation.
    Mr. REMER: Was there not an inquiry under the Safeguarding legislation?
    Mr. GRAHAM: That was an inquiry restricted to a particular industry and not dealing with the industrial conditions of the area as a whole.

    COTTON HOSIERY (IMPORTS).
    Mr. B. RILEYasked the President of the Board of Trade the quantity of cotton hosiery imported into Great Britain from Japan for the year ended 31st December, 1930, and for the three months ended 31st March, 1931, respectively?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: During the year 1930 the total quantity of hosiery of cotton, or of which the chief value

    969
    is cotton, imported into the United Kingdom, registered as consigned from Japan, was as follows: Stockings and hose, 1,144,288 dozen pairs; underwear, 983,022 dozens and fancy hosiery, 113,046 dozens. During the first three months of 1931 the quantities were 296,994 dozen pairs; 202,636 dozens and 86,330 dozens, respectively.
    Major COLFOX: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us that information in terms of money value?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I should require notice of that question.
    Sir N. STEWART SANDEMAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many people would have been kept in employment here if those goods had been manufactured in this country?

    SOAP (IMPORTS).
    Mr. C. WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade the quantities of soap of all kinds imported into the United Kingdom during 1930 from British and foreign countries, respectively; and how much of the latter was consigned from Soviet Russia?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: During the year 1930 the total quantity of soap imported into the United Kingdom and consigned from British countries was 115,178 cwt. and from foreign countries 231,972 cwt., of which 34,365 cwt. were consigned from the Soviet Union.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the last-named amount is increasing?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I think, without having the figures before me, that there has been an increase within recent times.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is it clean, may I ask?
    Commander BELLAIRS: Has the right hon. Gentleman made any comparisons between the price at which the Soviet soap is sold here and the price in Russia?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise out of the answer.

    TANKS (EXPORTS TO RUSSIA).
    Sir NORMAN ANGELLasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the number of tanks or other armed vehicles for which export
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    licences for the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics were granted during the year 1930 and for the first four months of 1931?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: In 1930, licences were issued for the exportation to Soviet Russia of 40 tanks and 26 light armoured vehicles. No such licences have been issued in 1931.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Does not a great deal go in in parts, apart from what is mentioned in those statistics?
    Mr. GRAHAM: Plainly, I cannot reply to that question, but in any case, as I have previously pointed out, the Board of Trade is only the licensing Department.
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN: Did the right hon. Gentleman take any steps, before those machines were exported, to find out to what use they were to be put?

    EMPIRE TEA (MARKING).
    Commander SOUTHBYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the introduction of a marking Order for Empire-grown tea, in order that the public may know whether they are buying a British or foreign article?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: An application for the marking of imported tea was considered by one of the Standing Committees under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1926. Their report, of which I am forwarding a copy to the hon. and gallant Member, was not in favour of a compulsory marking Order.

    BRITISH GOODS (BOYCOTT, INDIA).
    Sir ARTHUR STEEL-MAITLANDasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he will publish weekly statements as to the position of the boycott of British goods in India?
    Mr. GILLETT (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): No, Sir; but if developments of special interest occur, I will endeavour to see that the information is made available to the House.

    COSTS OF PRODUCTION.
    Mr. HURDasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he will name the British industrial missions which, during the past three years, have visited oversea markets and on their

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    return emphasised in their reports the need for reduction of costs of production in addition to their recommendations for improved marketing methods; and whether costs have been materially reduced in the trades specified in the reports?
    Mr. GILLETT: I would refer the hon. Member to my statement in this House yesterday during the proceedings of the Supply Committee. The Missions to the Far East, South Africa and the Rhodesias and to Egypt, have all emphasised the need for securing reduction of costs. The hon. Member can rest assured that the attention of those concerned in United Kingdom export trade have been drawn to these recommendations and that the problem is being dealt with; but it is impossible to give specific details of reductions which have taken place.

  FOOD COUNCIL.
  Sir F. HALLasked the President of the Board of Trade the total expenditure incurred in connection with the Food Council during the year 1930–31; and how many meetings of the council were held during that period and the number during the first four months of this year?
  Miss WILKINSONasked the President of the Board of Trade when the last meeting of the Food Council took place; and whether any report can be expected from them in the near future?
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: The last meeting of the Food Council was held on the 18th December, 1930, but it will be appreciated that full meetings of the council are not necessary for the day to day conduct of the inquiries which it authorises. I understand that another meeting of the council will take place shortly, but I am unable to say whether it will then be in a position to report on any of the questions which it has before it. The total expenditure in connection with the work of the Food Council during the year 1930–31 was £1,093. Three meetings of the Council were held during that period.
  Sir F. HALL: As only three meetings were held during the whole of last year, why was there such a large expenditure;
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  and, as no meetings were held this year, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the way the work is going on?
  Mr. GRAHAM: My hon. and gallant friend is under a misapprehension. The great bulk of the work consists of inquiries, and not in the formal meetings of the council; there is day-to-day investigation.
  Mr. REMER: When is the right hon. Gentleman going to stop this stupid business?
  Mr. GRAHAM: We do not propose to fall into the trap of the kind indicated by the hon. Member. On the contrary, under the Consumers' Council Bill, we propose to extend the work.
  Sir F. HALL: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the progress that has been made?
  Mr. McSHANE: Arising out of the original reply, as the Food Council was originally established by the present Leader of the Opposition, and the main reason for its existence—
  Mr. SPEAKER: We cannot go into that question now.

  BRITISH SHIPS (MANNING RULES).
  Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that certain reductions are being made in the manning of ships sailing out of Liverpool; if he is satisfied that these reductions do not in any way affect the safety of the vessels; and if his Department will take steps to prevent any reduction of crews below the safety limit?
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: Yes, Sir, but I am not aware of any case in which the crew has been reduced below the minimum required by the manning rules. In any such case the necessary steps to have the deficiency remedied would be taken.
  Mr. HALL-CAINE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the steamship "Dryden," owned by Lamport, Holt & Company, sailed from Liverpool—[HON. MEMBERS: "Do not read it!"]—I was going to give the figures of the exact number of men—with 12 men short of the number on the previous voyage, and also that another vessel,

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  steamship "Nasmythe," sailed from Glasgow with a reduced crew, and when she arrived in Liverpool the men asked to be paid off, because they did not consider the vessel was safe with her reduced crew? Will my right hon. Friend set up a committee to inquire into this matter?
  Mr. GRAHAM: That is not necessary. My attention had not been called to the two cases, but I will make inquiries under the powers we now possess, and will communicate with my hon. Friend.
  Mr. REMER: Are there not thoroughly good officers to deal with this matter in Liverpool itself?

  Reliable Statistics of British Emigrants from the United Kingdom for pre-war years are not available. It is probable, however, that the outward balance of British passengers from the United Kingdom to places out of Europe indicates approximately the scale of Dei emigration during those years. The following table shows the outward balances of such passengers, distinguishing male and female adults of 12 years of age and upwards, and children under 12 years of age, in each of the five years 1909 to 1913:—

  Year.

  Total Balance Outward.

  Adults of 12 years and upwards.

  Children under 12 years of age.

  Males.

  Females.

  1909

  …

  …

  …

  139,693

  68,360

  50,948

  20,385

  1910

  …

  …

  …

  233,709

  117,771

  79,035

  36,903

  1911

  …

  …

  …

  261,809

  124,431

  89,578

  47,800

  1912

  …

  …

  …

  268,485

  115,942

  99,573

  52,970

  1913

  …

  …

  …

  241,997

  101,554

  93,003

  47,440

  BRITISH ARMY.

    VOCATIONAL TRAINING.
    Brigadier-General MAKINSasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has yet conferred with the masters' associations of the West End bespoke tailoring trade with a view to enabling that trade to fill the present shortage on their staffs from highly skilled tailors and cutters trained in the Army vocational training centres?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Shaw): I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply I gave on 5th May to the hon. and gallant Member for Salisbury (Major Despencer-Robertson), in which I stated that the question of affording facilities for training at Army vocational training centres as tailors' cutters was receiving attention.
    Mr. GRAHAM: The Board of Trade has the usual machinery for dealing with such oases, and that is the machinery which I hope to put in motion.

    EMIGRATION.
    Mr. POTTSasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of emigrants from this country for each of the five years ended 1913, giving separate figures for men, women and children?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: As the answer involves a table of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The information required is as follows:
    Brigadier-General MAKINSasked the Secretary of State for War whether those responsible for the Army vocational training centres keep each centre warned on the one hand as to which trades are fully supplied with skilled craftsmen, and on the other hand informed as to which trades are offering employment, in addition to the bespoke tailoring trade, the hotel and restaurant trade for chefs and cooks, and the building trade for plasterers?
    Mr. SHAW: Yes, Sir. The trades taught at the Army vocational training, centres are constantly under review with regard to the degree of employability they offer. I should add that only those trades are taught in which reasonable proficiency may be expected after six months training. It will be quite obvious that highly skilled trades, which require

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    years of whole-time training if the worker is to be proficient, cannot be taught at Army vocational training centres.

    WAR GRAVES, BELGIUM.
    Captain P. MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for War if he can now make a statement regarding his inquiries into the question of the violation of British war graves in Belgium?
    Mr. SHAW: No, Sir. A thorough investigation is being undertaken, but I am not yet in a position to make any statement.
    Captain MACDONALD: If I repeat the question next week, can he say whether he will be able to give me an answer?
    Mr. SHAW: It is very difficult to say, but I will give the hon. and gallant Gentleman notice when I am in a position to give him a reply.

    MILITARY LANDS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for War what is the total area of land held in Great Britain for military purposes?
    Mr. SHAW: The total area of land in Great Britain owned or held by the War Department is approximately 250,000 acres. In addition some 14,000 acres are hired during the training season.

  SCOTLAND.

    WALKING TOURISTS (ACCOMMODATION).
    Miss LEEasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that there is a strong desire among young persons on walking tours in Scotland for a chain of hostels throughout the country where they can obtain shelter overnight for a maximum charge of 1s. and if he is prepared to grant financial and other assistance for the furtherance of this project?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Westwood): My right hon. Friend is aware that there is a growing movement in favour of the provision of facilities of the nature indicated in the question and he is in full sympathy with such provision being made subject to satisfactory regulations. There are no funds at my right hon. Friend's disposal for the provision of
    976
    rest houses, and pending consideration by the Government of the recent report of the National Park Committee which contains certain proposals bearing on the matter he cannot make any statement on the question of financial assistance, but he will be glad to render any assistance in his power in other directions.
    Miss LEE: While thanking the hon. Gentleman for his very sympathetic and helpful reply, may I also ask him if he is aware that Germany, defeated and bankrupt after the War, gave money for this purpose, because it is thought to be so valuable for the health and well-being of the young people?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: My right hon. Friend is aware of the fact stated by the hon. Lady.
    Lieut. Commander KENWORTHY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a great number of these hostels are now being established by voluntary efforts?
    Major COLFOX: Are the Government prepared to provide hostel accommodation for nothing for Members of Parliament and other indigent persons?

    HOUSING.
    Major WOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities in Scotland have failed to furnish to the Department of Health a general statement of their housing proposals as required by Section 22 (2) of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: General statements in terms of subsection two of Section 23 of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1030 have not so far been received from 11 county councils and 39 town councils. The Department of Health for Scotland are in communication with each of these local authorities with a view to the submission of the statements.
    Major WOOD: Can the Under-Secretary say what is the reason for the delay in complying with the statutory requirements?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: I cannot say what the reasons are for the delay, but may I point out that the authorities themselves so far have not complied with the provisions of the Act, but we are urging them to submit these statements as early as possible.

    RATING RELIEF.
    Major WOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the amount that has been paid to local authorities in Scotland from the Exchequer each year as a consequence of the passing of the Derating Act; and the total up to date?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: The amounts paid to date are:

    £

    In the year ended 31st March, 1930

    1,658,827

    In the year ended 31st March, 1931

    5,502,724

    Since 1st April, 1931

    1,136,038

    £8,297,589

    DEPARTMENT OF REGISTERS AND RECORDS (WAGES).
    Mr. MATHERSasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction caused by the reference of the claims of the second class clerks in the Department of the Registers and Records of Scotland to be further reported upon by Lord Fleming's Committee; and whether he can now state when a settlement of these claims brought before him in August, 1929, will be made, in view of the fact that any change in the system of registration brought about as a result of the report now being awaited would not detract from the strength of the claims, as the responsibility of the work of these officers continues to increase?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: The particular claims of the second class clerks have not been referred to Lord Fleming's Committee which is concerned with the system of registration of writs. Questions of the grading and remuneration of the staffs are, however, necessarily dependent upon the system of registration; and it was partly with a view to expediting a decision on the staff claims that Lord Fleming was asked to convene again his committee on registration. My right hon. Friend will see that, so far as he is concerned, there is no avoidable delay in reaching a settlement.
    Mr. MATHERS: Will the Under-Secretary indicate to his right hon. Friend the extreme dissatisfaction that exists in regard to the long and protracted delay
    978
    that has occurred in meeting the claims of these men which apparently the Under-Secretary has indicated cannot be effected by the inquiry now being carried on?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: I have already given my hon. Friend an assurance on behalf of my right hon. Friend that, so far as he is concerned, there will be no avoidable delay in reaching a settlement.
    Mr. MATHERS: Will the Under-Secretary indicate to his right hon. Friend the desirability of seeing that no one else is allowed to stand in the way of a speedy settlement?

    EDUCATION (INSTRUCTOR OF PHYSICAL TRAINING).
    Mr. MATHERSasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether it is his intention to appoint trained physical instructors as assistant inspectors to advise the recently-appointed inspector of physical training to the Scottish Education Department?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: The answer is in the negative.

    ROAD SCHEME (BO'NESS AND SOUTH QUEENSFERRY).
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the extent of land which was required for the proposed Bo'ness to South Queensferry short road; and whether he can state the total price asked for the land by the respective landowners?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: I am informed that the extent of land required was 46.34 acres and that the total claims in respect of it, including certain claims for damages by the occupiers on various grounds and possibly in respect of some minerals, amounted to £9,597. There were, in addition, claims for £1,055 in respect of timber; £15,550 for damage to amenity; and £28,758 for the value of certain minerals if purchased.
    Mr. MACLEAN: May I take it from the figures which have been given by the Under-Secretary that the total amount to be paid for this land, including the claim for damages by the occupiers, is approximately £58,000?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: No, the exact figure is £54,960.
    Mr. MACLEAN: While thanking the hon. Gentleman for his exact answer, may I point out that I asked him for the approximate figure?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: I have given the exact figure.
    Mr. MACLEAN: That is all right.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that part of the land required for the proposed road between Bo'ness and South Queensferry amounts to 25 acres; that the price asked for that acreage and damage to amenities and unworked minerals was £48,113; that the gross annual value of this land is £225 and the rateable value £28 5s.; and whether he can obtain the particulars of the rateable values of the other lands which were included in the scheme and the respective prices asked for them?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: My right hon. Friend has no information on these matters but he is making inquiry and will communicate the result to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. MACLEAN: As the Under-Secretary has given me the exact figures in answer to a previous question, why is it that he cannot give the figures for this particular part of the area?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: It is due to the fact that we have not had the necessary time for making full inquiries, but I can assure the hon. Member that we are making inquiries, and that as soon as we get the results of those inquiries I will communicate with the hon. Member.
    Major COLFOX: Is it not a fact that Question No. 38 contains practically all the information asked for in the answer to Question No. 36?
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is it not a fact that different information is asked for at the end of Question 38 to which these figures refer, and if the hon. and gallant Member had read the question he would have known?

    GLASGOW TOWN COUNCIL (LAND PURCHASES).
    Mr. HARDIEasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he can state the
    980
    total price paid by the Glasgow Town Council for each of the following sites whose purchase was approved on 12th March, 1931, by the council: land bought on the Scotstoun Estate, west of Victoria Drive, land at Woodville Street and Copland Road, Ibrox, and the ground bought in London Road, Glasgow; and can he give the rateable value of each site?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: As the answer involves a table of figures, with my hon. Friend's permission, I shall have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer.
    Scotstoun Estate:

    Area, 62.187 acres.

    Consideration Feuduty of £2,032 5s. over and above £8,000 for roads and sewers.

    Annual Valuation, £49 12s.

    Woodville Street and Copland Road:

    Area, 17,000 square yards.

    Price, £8,500.

    Annual Valuation, £1,944.

    London Road:

    Area, 12,343 acres.

    Price, £8,961.

    Annual Valuation, £80 10s.

    BEET-SUGAR FACTORY, CUPAR.
    Mr. DUNCAN MILLARasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the acreage of sugar-beet contracted for this year by the Cupar beet factory; the price payable to the growers; and the subsidy payable to the factory?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: The number of acres contracted for is 1,036. The price payable to the growers for each ton of topped and washed beet delivered into the factory will be 38s. for beet with a sugar content of 15½ per cent., with an addition of 2s. 6d. per ton for each subsequent 1 per cent. increase in sugar content. It is impossible to estimate the total subsidy payable until the crop has been lifted and the quantity of beets ascertained. As regards the rate of subsidy payable, I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the terms of the First Schedule to the British Sugar (Subsidy) Act, 1925, and to the statement made by the Prime Minister on the 12th February regarding a special advance to the factories in respect of sugar manufactured in the 1931–32 campaign.

    LICENSING (ROYAL COMMISSION).
    Mr. MILLARasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the report of the Royal Commission on Licensing in Scotland will be issued?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: I understand that the Commission hope to be able to make their report towards the end of this month; and arrangements will be made for its presentation and issue as soon as possible thereafter.
    Mr. MARLEY: Is there any truth in the suggestion that Scotland will probably go "dry"?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: My right hon. Friend is awaiting the report.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    PRICES.
    Brigadier-General BROWNasked the Secretary for Mines what were the summer prices for household coal last May; and what are the similar prices at the present time?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Shinwell): The only comparable figures I have are in respect of retail coal prices in Central London. On 13th May, 1930, the lowest summer retail prices ranged from 39s. to 50s. per ton, according to the class of coal. On 5th May, 1931, retail prices for the same classes of coal ranged from 40s. to 51s. per ton, and showed an increase of 1s. per ton over last year's prices.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the reason for this increase? Is it due, like everything else, to world causes?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Is my hon. Friend not aware that the pit-head price for the first three months of this year was less than the pit-head price for the same period last year?
    Mr. REMERasked the Secretary for Mines if his attention has been called to the difficulties under the Coal Mines Act sustained by the dyeworks of Messrs. Joshua Schofield and Sons, Limited, of Romily, Cheshire; if he is aware that this firm has a contract with the Black-well Colliery Company of Alfreton, Derbyshire, and that in order to obtain
    982
    satisfactory supplies this firm had to pay 8d. a ton increase on their contract price; and what steps he intends to take to prevent these increased charges on industrial concerns?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I have no powers to control the distribution or price of coal. If it is alleged by the complainants that the increase in price is due to the operation of a scheme in force under Part 1 of the Coal Mines Act, 1930, and they consider that the increase is against the public interest or is unfair or inequitable, they have the right of submitting the matter to the Committee of Investigation for the Midland (Amalgamated) District set up under Section 5 of the Act expressly to deal with such matters.
    Mr. REMER: In view of the difficulties incurred by my constituents in this matter, I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to the matter on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House at the earliest opportunity.
    Mr. FREEMANasked the Secretary for Mines whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the difference between the cost of coal at the London depots and the cost of domestic supplies is between 15s. and 19s. per ton; that coal is sold in London at 50s. per ton, which cost 17s. at the pithead, and with 126. added for railway rate and wagon hire, making the cost at the depot 29s.; whether he is aware that after deducting 6s. a ton for delivery in bags from the depots to the domestic cellar the difference of 15s. per ton remains as profit; and whether he will consider what steps can be taken to reduce the scale of profit from the sale of coal in London and elsewhere?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I have seen the figures quoted by my hon. Friend which were published recently in a technical journal. I am informed by the Coal Merchants' Federation that they are not prepared to accept these figures, and that they propose to issue a statement dealing with the allegations. I propose, therefore, to await that statement.
    Mr. FREEMAN: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that coal is being delivered in London at present at 32s. a ton on the same basis as the supply for household purposes at 50s., and will he take some action to prevent this exploitation?
    Mr. SHINWELL: Various statements are made about the price at which coal is sold in London and the overhead charges. It is very difficult to get at the actual truth, but I am endeavouring to do it.
    Mr. FREEMAN: Was not the statement made in the House a short time ago that coal was delivered to the House of Commons and to Buckingham Palace at 32s. a ton?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I believe Government Departments purchase coal at a much lower price than it can be purchased by the average consumer, but there are reasons for it.

    SUPPLIES.
    Mr. FREEMANasked the Secretary for Mines whether his attention has been called to the fact that 10 times more coal described as Derby Brights is sold by London coal merchants than is produced at the collieries; whether he will take steps to ensure that all kinds of coal sold shall be accurately described by all those concerned in the selling and delivery of coal; and whether he will outline what steps he proposes to take to protect the public in this matter?
    Mr. SHINWELL: While in its original sense "Derby Brights" was no doubt applicable only to coal produced in Derbyshire, the term has come to be regarded by the trade and by consumers as describing coal of a kind having certain characteristics, which may be possessed also by coal produced in counties bordering on Derbyshire.
    Mr. FREEMAN: Will my hon. Friend consider the desirability of securing an accurate description of coal produced under the quota system, at any rate giving the county of origin, instead of allowing any old rubbish to be described as "Derby Brights"?
    Mr. SHINWELL: The term "Derby Brights" is not determined by the locality.
    Mr. BROCKWAY: Do the miners who produce this coal benefit from the increased price that is charged for it?
    Mr. SHINWELL—
    Mr. SPEAKER: The question is about "Derby Brights."
    Lieut. Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary for Mines whether any difficulty is now being experienced at any of the ports in the Kingdom in obtaining coal for export and bunkers under the quota system; and whether he has had any complaints during this quarter from the North-East Coast?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I am advised that there is now no difficulty in obtaining supplies in any port. It will be appreciated that under ordinary conditions of trade, occasional difficulties in obtaining supplies of coal are alleged. These are frequently due to the inability of buyers and sellers to agree on price. I have received no specific complaint this quarter from the North-East Coast, but I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy of the reply that I have sent to a general complaint, unsupported by evidence, from the British Coasting and Near Trades Shipowners' Association.
    Mr. WOMERSLEYasked the Secretary for Mines if he has considered the resolution submitted by the British Coasting and Near Trades Shipowners' Association protesting against the provisions of Part I of the Coal Mines Act, 1930, and alleging that serious injury to British coastwise shipping has been caused thereby; and will he have inquiries made into this matter?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I have no evidence to support the allegation contained in the resolution passed by the British Coasting and Near Trades Shipowners' Association, and I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a letter which I have sent to the Association.
    Mr. WOMERSLEY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been a large drop in the export of coal from Humber ports coastwise and. consequently, a great deal of unemployment among coal workers?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I am afraid that has nothing whatever to do with it.

    WAGES.
    Mr. SMITHERSasked the Prime Minister what is the policy of the Government with regard to the demand for legislation for minimum wage rates for miners; and whether it is intended to introduce a Bill in this connection during the present Session of Parliament?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): As was announced recently, the proposals put forward by the Miners' Federation are being examined in detail by the Government in consultation with the Federation representatives. We have also invited representatives of the Mining Association to meet us tomorrow, to discuss the position generally. I cannot say anything further at present.
    Mr. SMITHERS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Liberal party have been consulted in this matter, and when we may expect a decision?

  CLOCKS (24-HOUR SYSTEM).
  Mr. SMITHERSasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the support given by the Astronomer Royal to the proposal to adopt the 24 hours clock for official purposes; and whether the Government propose to support this movement?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The Departments concerned will consider the matter in the light of the discussion which took place last Wednesday in another place.

  RACECOURSE BETTING ACT (1928) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Mr. PHILIP OLIVERasked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the memorial submitted by the Archbishops of York and Armagh, the Bishops of London, Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham, the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, the President of the National Council of Evangelical Free Churches, the Chief Rabbi, the headmasters of Harrow and Westminster, and others, appealing to the Government to provide facilities for the passage into law of the Racecourse Betting Act (1928) Amendment Bill; and what action does he propose to take?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, Sir; I have given very careful consideration to the memorial referred to, but in view of the present state of Parliamentary business I can hold out no hope that an opportunity will be found for the discussion of this Bill.

  GOVERNMENT PROPERTIES (SALES).
  Brigadier-General BROWNasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any Government lands or properties have been sold since 1929 up to date; and, if so, what is the average price per acre they have been sold for?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, the information asked for is not available at the Treasury, and could not be obtained from the various Departments concerned without the expenditure of a disproportionate amount of time and labour.

  LOCAL LOANS.
  Major WOODasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the hardship caused by the regulation which limits the amount of certain loans granted by the Public Works Loan Board to half the value of the National Savings Certificates purchased during the previous year within the area of the local authority which applies for one of such loans; and, seeing that the regulation acts as a discrimination against the smaller local authorities, whether he will consider the advisability of its withdrawal?
  Mr. PETHICK - LAWRENCE: The regulation in regard to Savings Certificates is not a limitation, but in extension of the practice of the Public Works Loan Board. Including this, the facilities for the smaller local authorities are greatly in excess of those for the larger authorities. In all the circumstances, I am not prepared to amend the regulations.
  Major WOOD: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the town to which I referred when I spoke to him last week has again received notice from the Public Works Loan Board that their loan in excess of this percentage cannot be considered?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: The hon. and gallant Gentleman wrote me a letter, and, if he wishes me to go further into that matter, I shall be very pleased to discuss it with him, but it does not affect my answer to his present question.
  Major WOOD: Am I not right in saying that there is a limitation on loans of the type described in the question; and will the hon. Gentleman say what is the reason for putting this limitation on such loans?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I do not think it is possible to go into the full details of a question of this kind by question and answer. The fact is that there always were limitations upon the use of funds supplied through the Public Works Loan Board. When the Savings Certificates started, an extension was made by which certain other loans could be granted. That, however, is not a limitation, but an extension of the original plan.
  Major WOOD: Does the hon. Gentleman remember that last week—
  Mr. SPEAKER—
  Major WOOD: May I point out, Mr. Speaker, that I put this question last week and received no answer, but was told that I was misinformed? I have put it down a second time, and again have received no answer. May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether it is not the case that there is a limitation?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Member has had a long answer.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    INSURANCE (EXCHEQUER CONTRIBUTIONS).
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer from what source the borrowing for Exchequer payments to the unemployment insurance contributions is effected?
    Mr. PETHICK - LAWRENCE: The money is borrowed by the Treasury from the National Debt Commissioners.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Is there an Exchequer guarantee in the case of the Unemployment Insurance Fund?
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: That seems to me to be an entirely different question. If the right hon. Gentleman will put it down, I will inquire into it.

    POOR LAW RELIEF.
    Sir F. HALLasked the Minister of Health what was the expenditure incurred by local authorities in Great
    988
    Britain during the 12 months ended 31st March, 1931, in the grant of out-of-door relief to persons who have not worked since leaving school and who had in the meantime married and had children?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Miss Lawrence): My right hon. Friend regrets that this information is not available.
    Sir F. HALL: Has the hon. Lady seen the report issued by the Newcastle-upon-Tyne Public Assistance Committee of last week in which they refer to this information, and does not she think it possible to obtain it from the various municipalities?
    Miss LAWRENCE: Not without an enormous amount of work, which does not appear to my right hon. Friend to be commensurate with the results which would be obtained.
    Sir F. HALL: Is not the hon. Lady aware that this is an important factor, and that we ought to have the information?
    Mr. McSHANE: Will the hon. Lady, in order to get the information, get into touch with Deauville?

  INCOME TAX ASSESSORS AND COLLECTORS (FEES).
  Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the basis on which the fees payable for assessing and for collecting Income Tax, respectively, are calculated?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: The remuneration of both assessors and collectors of taxes is calculated on a unitary basis, subject to a cost-of-living adjustment. The figures so arrived at are inclusive of all expenses.
  Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: If the answer is too long to be given on the Floor of the House, could the Secretary of State furnish a memorandum showing the unitary basis?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: By unitary basis is meant that it is on the basis of the number of units of work performed. I think it is a matter of detail.
  Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Will the hon. Gentleman put it in the form of a written answer showing how those units are arrived at?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I will consider that suggestion.

  TRANSPORT.

    MOTOR CYCLES (TAXATION).
    Mr. MANDERasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will consider the possibility of extending the concession made with regard to motorcycle taxation so that the tax of 30s. shall apply to motor cycles with engines between 152 c.c. and 250 c.c.?
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: While my right hon. Friend is aware of the arguments which are urged in favour of the adoption of cylinder capacity as the basis of taxation for motor cycles with engines in excess of 150 c.c., he has not felt able to propose so extensive a change on the present occasion.
    Mr. MANDER: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this concession would be very warmly welcomed by the trade, and will he consider whether it can be granted?
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I cannot add anything to the answer that I have given.
    Major COLFOX: Can the hon. Gentleman give any estimate of the number of votes that the party might possibly gain?

    CALEDONIAN CANAL (BRIDGES).
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Minister of Transport if the contracts for the new bridges over the Caledonian Canal have yet been placed; and, if so, whether he can state the successful firm or firms and when the work is likely to commence?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Mr. Parkinson): The tenders for these bridges are now under consideration, and I hope that the contract will be placed and the work commenced shortly.

    BROKEN STONE SUPPLIES.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Transport whether there is an adequate supply of broken stone quarried in this country?
    Mr. PARKINSON: Yes, Sir, the supply is adequate.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Can the hon. Gentleman say why so much foreign material is being sent into this country?
    HON. MEMBERS: Answer!
    Captain Sir WILLIAM BRASS: Is not the hon. Member aware that foreign material is being used?

  CONTINENTAL IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRIES (REPORT).
  Mr. MORTasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many copies of the report of the delegation on the industrial conditions in the several Continental iron and steel industries, Cmd. 3601, have been sold; and whether there has been a profit or loss on the publication?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: Rather over 2,000 copies have been sold, and the revenue from sales exceeds the cost of printing and publishing.

  CIVIL SERVICE (CLERICAL CLASSES).
  Mr. DAYasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the total number of male and female officers employed in the clerical classes of the Civil Service as at the last convenient date?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: On the 1st January last the total number of male and female officers employed in the established General and Departmental Clerical Classes of the Civil Service was 42,660, of whom 34,120 were male and 8,540 female.
  Commander SOUTHBY: Can the hon. Gentleman say what proportion are ex-service men?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: Not without notice.

  NATIONAL DEBT COMMISSIONERS (INVESTMENTS).
  Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the amount of Five Per Cent. War Loan, 1929–47, held by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt as

  991
  investments for account of National Health and other funds under Government control?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I would refer the hon. Member to the published accounts of the National Health Insurance Funds (House of Commons Paper 79 of 1931), and of the Post Office Savings Banks Fund, and the Fund for the Banks for Savings.

  IMPERIAL ECONOMIC CONFERENCE.
  Mr. SMITHERSasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether it is his intention personally to go to Ottawa for the forthcoming Imperial Conference?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): The composition of the United Kingdom delegation to the Ottawa Conference has not yet been settled.
  Mr. SMITHERS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole Empire is waiting—
  Mr. SPEAKER—
  Mr. SMITHERS: Would you allow me to finish, Sir.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member claims a very wide constituency.

  EMPIRE MARKETING BOARD.
  Mr. HURDasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what is the programme of the Empire Marketing Board for the present year as affecting British agriculture; what sum of money is to be spent on that programme; and what proportion this sum bears to the total estimated expenditure of the board?
  Mr. THOMAS: A grant of £50,000 is being made available from the Empire Marketing Fund to the home agricultural departments for the improvement and development of the marketing of home agricultural produce during the present year. The total estimated expenditure of the board in the current financial year is £600,000, and a large proportion of this expenditure, besides the specific item referred to, is calculated to yield direct benefits to home agriculture as well as to other parts of the Empire.
  Mr. HURD: Does that mean that £400,000 goes back to the Treasury?
  Mr. THOMAS: It does not mean anything of the kind. It means that £400,000 is being saved by the Government in their anxiety to economise.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what steps are being taken by the Empire Marketing Board to encourage the production of films as a means of propaganda for British trade overseas?
  Mr. THOMAS: The terms of the Empire Marketing Board's Vote have hitherto precluded them from furthering the marketing of Empire products elsewhere than in the United Kingdom. In view of the proposed removal of that limitation, the position is now being reviewed.
  Mr. MANDER: Has not the right hon. Gentleman received a recommendation from the Department of Overseas Trade on the matter?
  Mr. THOMAS: It was only at the last Imperial Conference that it was possible to allocate funds from the Empire Marketing Board for the advertisement of our own produce. I have always held that now that we are a Dominion we are entitled to the benefits of being a Dominion, and I am seeing that we are not left out of the picture.
  Mr. ANNESLEY SOMERVILLE: Has the right hon. Gentleman taken any steps to have suitable propaganda films produced?
  Mr. THOMAS: It is not limited to films. The whole problem is being reviewed with a view to seeing what is the best course to take.
  Mr. LAMBERT: Does not the British taxpayer provide the whole of the funds for the Empire Marketing Board?
  Mr. THOMAS: That is true, and that was the decision arrived at by the previous Government.

  CHURCH ESTATES, DURHAM (ROYALTIES).
  Mr. LAWTHERasked the hon. Member for Central Leeds, as representing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, if he will state the amount of royalty rents

  993
  paid to the commissioners for coal drawn in Durham county for 1919 and each successive year up to and including 1930?
  Mr. DENMAN (Second Church Estates Commissioner): The gross royalty rents in respect of coal in the county of Durham received by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for their Common Fund were as follow:

  £

  For the year ended 31st March, 1919

  239,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1920

  325,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1921

  361,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1922

  227,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1923

  331,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1924

  358,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1925

  355,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1926

  308,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1927

  176,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1928

  265,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1929

  273,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1930

  298,000

  Mr. LAWTHER: What was the amount charged per ton by the Commissioners on coal in relation to the figures given?
  Mr. GILLETT: I should require notice of that question, and I am not sure that I could give it even then.
  Mr. LAWTHERasked the hon. Member for Central Leeds, as representing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, if he will state the amount of rents paid to the Commissioners for estates in Durham County for 1919 and each successive year up to and including 1930?
  Mr. DENMAN: The gross rents (including tithe rentcharges and mineral rents) from estates in the county of Durham received by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for their Common Fund were as follow:
  994

  £

  For the year ended 31st March, 1919

  414,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1920

  443,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1921

  483,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1922

  339,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1923

  452,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1924

  486,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1925

  484,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1926

  434,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1927

  291,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1928

  392,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1929

  406,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1930

  436,000

  Mr. LAWTHERasked the hon. Member for Central Leeds, as representing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, if he will state the amount of royalty rents paid for lead mined in Durham County for 1919, and each successive year up to and including 1930?
  Mr. DENMAN: The gross royalty rents in respect of lead in the county of Durham received by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for their Common Fund were as follow:

  £

  For the year ended 31st March, 1919

  8,300

  For the year ended 31st March, 1920

  3,500

  For the year ended 31st March, 1921

  5,900

  For the year ended 31st March, 1922

  1,600

  For the year ended 31st March, 1923

  1,800

  For the year ended 31st March, 1924

  3,100

  For the year ended 31st March, 1925

  4,000

  For the year ended 31st March, 1926

  5,900

  For the year ended 31st March, 1927

  4,500

  995

  £

  For the year ended 31st March, 1928

  3,300

  For the year ended 31st March, 1929

  2,100

  For the year ended 31st March, 1930

  1,700

  POST OFFICE.

    ADVERTISEMENT (HOLIDAY RESORTS).
    Dr. MORRIS-JONESasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the competition experienced by British holiday resorts from the holiday resorts of Continental countries, he will consider the adoption of similar measures to those of many foreign postal authorities and include in post office effacing stamps either a general invitation to holiday makers to see Britain first or words advertising individual holiday resorts?
    The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Viant): No, Sir. Similar suggestions have repeatedly been considered by my hon. Friend's predecessors and he shares their conclusion that the objections far outweigh any advantages.
    Dr. MORRIS-JONES: Can the hon. Gentleman say what are the obstacles in view of the very great advantages that might be derived?
    Mr. VIANT: They are far too numerous to enumerate.
    Dr. MORRIS-JONES: Will the hon. Gentleman mention one obstacle?

    TELEPHONE INSTRUMENTS.
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Postmaster-General whether the supply of hand micro-telephones is yet equal to the demand; and, if not, what steps are being taken to expedite delivery?
    Mr. VIANT: The rate of supply of new hand microphones from the contractors is now considerably in excess of the current demand; and all outstanding applications should be met shortly.

  WAGES.
  Mr. BROCKWAYasked the Minister of Labour what is the aggregate amount by which wages were reduced during the financial year 1930–31?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Lawson): The information for which my hon. Friend asks is to be found on pages 131 and 154 of the Ministry of Labour Gazette for April, 1931, of which I am sending him a copy.

  HOUSING (CROCKENHILL).
  Mr. McELWEEasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the efforts made by the people of Crocken-hill to get houses built to meet their requirements; and will he make representations to the Dartford Rural District Council thereon?
  Miss LAWRENCE: My right hon. Friend has received no representations on this matter. He understands that the District Council are providing a number of houses within half a mile of Crockenhill.
  Mr. McELWEE: Is the Minister aware that this is an effort to depopulate the village and to transfer the population to Swanley Junction, and will the Minister help to put a stop to it?
  Miss LAWRENCE: I think my answer covers the point, but, if the hon. Member will communicate with me on the geography of the matter, I shall be able to look into it.

  CENSUS RETURNS.
  Sir F. HALLasked the Minister of Health the average number of Census forms handled by individual enumerators; what is a reasonable time to be occupied by an enumerator in delivering, collecting, and correcting 1,000 forms; and what is the remuneration he receives in respect of such labour?
  Miss LAWRENCE: Enumeration districts have been planned in urban areas with a view to each containing not less than 300 or more than 400 separate occupiers. Taking the average enumeration district as producing, say 350 Census Schedules and containing a population of between 1,300 and 1,400 persons, such a district would carry with it a remuneration of approximately £3 18s. 0d. With regard to the time reasonably required for performing the duties of an enumerator, it should be borne in mind

  997
  that this depends upon both the conditions prevailing in the district and the personal ability of the enumerator himself; but my right hon. Friend is advised that in an average district and in normal circumstances the time required should amount in the aggregate to somewhat less than the equivalent of a full week's work in ordinary employment.
  Sir F. HALL: How much, in round figures, does it work out at per thousand for these enumerators who had to attend to the Census papers?
  Miss LAWRENCE: I cannot without notice give the exact arithmetic, but I have just stated that between 1,300 and 1,400 persons enumerated, on an average, carry a remuneration of approximately £3 18s.
  Sir F. HALL: I am sorry, but I did not hear the hon. Lady make that statement.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE AND PENSIONS (COMMITTEE).
  Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Health whether the Cabinet Committee appointed to make a general survey of schemes of national insurance and pensions have yet presented their report?
  Miss LAWRENCE: My right hon. Friend is afraid that he cannot add anything to the reply which he gave to the right hon. Member for West Woolwich
  (Sir K. Wood) on the 29th January with regard to the work of this Committee.
  Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: Surely the hon. Lady does not regard that as a satisfactory reply, but simply a refusal to give information.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. STANLEY BALDWIN: May I ask the Prime Minister for what Orders he has put down the Motion appearing on the Order Paper to-day?
The PRIME MINISTER: The Government are interested in items 2, 3 and 4 on the Order Paper of to-day and would like to get them. I am informed that the only Amendment on the Paper to these Orders is purely a drafting Amendment on the Palestine and East Africa Loans Bill, and, if possible, we should like to get them.
Mr. BALDWIN: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to sit late?
The PRIME MINISTER: No, not unusually late, if we can get them at a reasonable hour.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 103.

Division No. 240.]

AYES.

[3.45 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Burgess, F. G.

Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Caine, Hall-, Derwent

Elmley, Viscount

Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

Cape, Thomas

England, Colonel A.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

Foot, Isaac

Alpass, J. H.

Chater, Daniel

Freeman, Peter

Amnion, Charles George

Church, Major A. G.

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Angell, Sir Norman

Cluse, W. S.

Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

Arnott, John

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Aske, Sir Robert

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Compton, Joseph

Gibbins, Joseph

Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Cove, William G.

Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

Cowan, D. M.

Gillett, George M.

Barr, James

Cripps, Sir Stafford

Glassey, A. E.

Batey, Joseph

Daggar, George

Gossling, A. G.

Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

Dallas, George

Gould, F.

Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

Dalton, Hugh

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Bennett, William (Batteries, South)

Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

Granville, E.

Benson, G.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Gray, Milner

Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

Day, Harry

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

Bowen, J. W.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Dukes, C.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Broad, Francis Alfred

Duncan, Charles

Groves, Thomas E.

Brockway, A. Fenner

Ede, James Chuter

Grundy, Thomas W.

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Edmunds, J. E

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

March, S.

Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

Marcus, M.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

Marley, J.

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Hardie, George D.

Marshall, Fred

Sherwood, G. H.

Haycock, A. W.

Mathers, George

Shield, George William

Hayes, John Henry

Matters, L. W.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

Messer, Fred

Shillaker, J. F.

Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

Middleton, G.

Shinwell, E.

Hicks, Ernest George

Millar, J. D.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

Mills, J. E.

Simmons, C. J.

Hoffman, P. C.

Milner, Major J.

Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington)

Hollins, A.

Montague, Frederick

Sinkinton, George

Hopkin, Daniel

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Horrabin, J. F.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

Smith, Lees-, Rt. Hon. H. B. (Keighley)

Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

Mort, D. L.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Isaacs, George

Muff, G.

Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Muggeridge, H. T.

Sorensen, R.

Jones, Llewellyn, F.

Murnin, Hugh

Stamford, Thomas W.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Stephen, Campbell

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

Strauss, G. R.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camberne)

Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

Kelly, W. T.

Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Palin, John Henry

Thurtle, Ernest

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Palmer, E. T.

Tillett, Ben

Kinley, J.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Tinker, John Joseph

Knight, Holford

Perry, S. F.

Viant, S. P.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Walker, J.

Lang, Gordon

Phillips, Dr. Marion

Wallace, H. W.

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Picton-Turbervill, Edith

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Law, A. (Rossendale)

Pole, Major D. S.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Lawrence, Susan

Potts, John S.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Lawson, John James

Price, M. P.

Wellock, Wilfred

Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

Pybus, Percy John

Welsh, James (Paisley)

Leach, W.

Quibell, D. J. K.

Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

Rathbone, Eleanor

West, F. R.

Lees, J.

Raynes, W. R.

Westwood, Joseph

Longbottom, A. W.

Richards, R.

White, H. G.

Longden, F.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

Whitaley, William (Blaydon)

Lunn, William

Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Robinson, Sir T, (Lancs, Stretford)

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Romeril, H. G.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

Rosbotham, D. S. T.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

McElwee, A.

Rothschild, J. de

Wilson, J. (Oldham)

McEntee. V. L.

Rowson, Guy

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Wise, E. F.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

McShane, John James

Sanders, W. S.

Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Sandham, E.

Hander, Geoffrey le M.

Sawyer, G. P.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Manning, E. L.

Scrymgeour, E.

Mr. Charleton and Mr. Paling.

Mansfield, W.

Sexton, Sir James

NOES.

Acland-Troyte. Lieut.-Colonel

Colfox, Major William Philip

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.)

Cranborne, Viscount

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

Amery. Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hurd, Percy A.

Beaumont, M. W.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyen

Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Berry, Sir George

Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Betterton, Sir Henry B.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Marjoribanks, Edward

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Ferguson, Sir John

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

Ford, Sir p. J.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

Brass, Captain Sir William

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

O'Connor, T. J.

Briscoe, Richard George

Galbraith, J. F. W.

O'Neill, Sir H.

Broadbent, Colonel J.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Penny, Sir George

Brawn, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Gower, Sir Robert

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Bullock, Captain Malcolm

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Butler, B. A.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Ramsbotham, H.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Reid, David D. (County Down)

Campbell, E. T.

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Remer, John R.

Carver, Major W. H.

Hammersley, S. S.

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Ross, Ronald D.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

Hartington, Marquess of

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

1000

1001

Salmon, Major I.

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

Sueter, Roar-Admiral M. F.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

Womersley, W. J.

Simms, Major-General J.

Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Skelton, A. N.

Tinne, J. A.

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Todd, Capt. A. J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Smithers, Waldron

Ward. Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

Major Sir George Hennessy and

Somervilie, A. A. (Windsor)

Wells, Sydney R.

Sir Frederick Thomson.

WEST HARTLEPOOL CORPORATION BILL.
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS,
That they have agreed to,
Mid Southern District Utility Bill, without Amendment.
Amendments to:
Lowestoft Water and Gas Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make provision in regard to the utilisation of certain waste lands known as Becontree Heath in the Dagenham Urban District; and to make further provision in regard to the improvement, health, local government, and finance of the district; and for other purposes." [Dagenham. Urban District Council Bill [Lords].]
And also, a Bill intituled, "An Act to constitute and incorporate a Joint Board consisting of representatives of the urban district councils of Trowbridge and Melksham and the rural district councils of Melksham and Westbury and Whor-wellsdown; to transfer and to vest in the Board the undertaking of the Trowbridge Water Company; to authorise the Board to supply water; and for other purposes." [Trowbridge, Melksham, and District Water Board Bill [Lords].]

PUBLIC OFFICES (SITES) AMENDMENT BILL.
That they have appointed a Committee, consisting of four Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons to consider the Public Offices (Sites) Amendment Bill, pursuant to the Commons Message of Wednesday last; and they propose that the Joint Committee do meet in Committee Room No. 4 on Wednesday, 10th June, at Eleven o'clock.
DAGENHAM URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [Lords].
  TROWBRIDGE, MELKSHAM, AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD BILL [Lords].
  Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

  PUBLIC OFFICES (SITES) AMENDMENT BILL.
  So much of the Lords Message as relates to the Public Offices (Sites) Amendment Bill considered.
  Ordered, That the Committee appointed by this House do meet the Lords Committee as proposed by their Lordships.—[Mr. T. Kennedy.]
  Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (No. 2) BILL.
  [6TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (No. 2) BILL.

    FIRST SCHEDULE.—(Alternative Vote Rules.)
    The CHAIRMAN: Discussion will be taken on the first two Amendments on the first page of the Order Paper, and the first Amendment on the second page.
    Sir HILTON YOUNG: I beg to move, in page 6, line 8, to leave out from the word "candidate" to the end of paragraph (a).
    The two following Amendments are consequential on the first Amendment. The Opposition are constantly twitted, and naturally so, on not producing constructive suggestions. The Amendment is of a helpful and constructive nature. It is designed to improve the Bill. The scheme of the alternative vote which is proposed in the Bill is admittedly imperfect. Its own authors do not claim for it that it is anything but imperfect, and open to obvious objections. The scheme of the Amendment is the most perfect scheme for the alternative vote that has yet been devised by the wit of man. I will point out the manner in which that is so. In doing so, I want to be perfectly fair. I do not want to put the advantages of the scheme of the alternative vote laid down in the Amendment, too high.
    4.0 p.m.
    There are certain defects in the whole scheme of the alternative vote which this Amendment will not remedy, and I desire most frankly to confess what those defects are. For instance, Members of the Committee may be inclined to ask whether the scheme which I am presenting will in any degree increase the simplicity of the alternative vote. No. It is no simpler than the Government scheme. It will require no less profound an alteration in the habits of the electorate than will be required by the Government scheme, and it will present all the same difficulties as regards the uncertainty of the results in the hands of uneducated electors that the Government
    1014
    scheme possesses. I may be asked whether it will do anything to remedy another mischievous effect of any scheme for the alternative vote, namely, that of increasing the number of what I would call curiosity candidatures, and of four-cornered fights. I do not make any such claim for the scheme. That particular defect is, I believe, inherent in any scheme of the alternative vote, and the Amendment will not remedy it. There are other and more fundamental disadvantages as to which this Amendment will not effect a remedy. For instance, there is that inherent disadvantage of any scheme of the alternative vote which has been so thoroughly analysed in our discussions, namely, that, as a necessary consequence it puts a controlling influence into the hands of the smallest party in the election.
    I should like to be able to say that the scheme which I am about to put before the Committee would do something to remedy that basic defect in any scheme of the Alternative Vote but it does not. I cannot put the claim for this scheme as high as that. I do not think that it will do anything at all to remedy that defect in the scheme. Analogous to that defect in the Alternative Vote is another, which I do not think this scheme will do anything to remedy. It is that the controlling votes are the later votes, which are usually given for the least political and most frivolous reasons. I am afraid that our scheme will not remedy that defect at all: its advantages lie in a different sphere. On a matter which has occupied a good deal of attention in our discussions, the Committee may be disposed to ask, "What will this scheme you are putting before the Committee do to remedy the danger, which has been a good deal dwelt upon, that the scheme of the Alternative Vote would lead to undesirable compromises, dodging, and bargaining between the parties, and to a general loosening of the straightforwardness of political principles, in order to obtain electoral advantage?" I cannot claim that this scheme will remedy that defect of the Alternative Vote either. That will remain as much as ever under this scheme.
    Finally, in order to put myself perfectly straight before the Committee with regard to the claims made for this

    1015
    scheme, of course it has to be admitted that no scheme of Alternative Vote has been proposed—not even this, the most perfect of all schemes—which does anything to meet the very large body of opinion in the House which desires to see the representation of minorities. It has been fully ascertained in our discussions that the representation of minorities is not achieved by any form of Alternative Vote. That is a completely different thing, which can be obtained only by some scheme of Proportional Representation, or a scrutin de liste on the Belgian system. Such representation cannot be obtained by any scheme of Alternative Vote, and is, indeed, absolutely inconsistent with it. It is based on a contrary theory to that at the bottom of the Alternative Vote. When my hon. Friends and myself put forward this scheme, I hope we shall not be misunderstood as claiming that it remedies all those defects. They are inherent in any scheme of Alternative Vote, and they remain as much in the scheme proposed in this Amendment as in any other.
    Let me turn from what the Amendment does not do to what it does do. First of all, there is a very obvious defect in the scheme put forward by the Government which has, I think, been attacked from every quarter of the House. It is this: It only allows for first and second preferences, and so, if there are more than three candidates, it does not do anything to clear up the situation as regards later preferences. That feature is attacked by hon. Members opposite and hon. Members below the Gangway, as well as by hon. Members on these benches. The first point about the alternative scheme now put before the Committee is that it allows for a full number of preferences, so that the elector can vote for three, four, five of six, right up to as many candidates as there may be. I am sure the Committee will agree that it is making very rough-and-ready business of it when you start to allow the elector to express his preferences in the order of merit, and when there are more than three candidates you only allow him to go as far as 1 and 2. You are cutting the matter short in the most arbitrary manner. That is the first defect which will be remedied by this scheme.
    1016
    Now I wish to come to the real gist of the matter, the glaring and obvious defect of the Government scheme, which the scheme now before the Committee will remedy. The object of the alternative vote is not, of course, to represent minorities, but to find a method not capable of bringing about a result contrary to the wishes of the majority of the electors. The fact which leaps to the eye about the scheme in the Government Bill is that it is capable of bringing about a result directly contrary to the wishes of the majority. It does not achieve what it sets out to achieve. In more heated Debates we have gone as far as to use the word "humbug," by which we mean something which does not do what it professes to do, and almost knows it does not do what it professes to do; in fact, is indifferent to whether it does or does not do it. In that sense, the scheme put forward in the Government Measure is a humbug. It can be proved that the Government scheme is capable of bringing about a result contrary to the wishes of the majority; but I am afraid that I cannot make this extremely important matter clear to the Committee without asking the Committee to allow me to tell them a story about A, B and C. It is really impossible to get along in this Debate without these useful characters. I know-that the doings of A, B and C are listened to with the greatest reluctance by the Committee, but I am afraid that we cannot get the matter straight without them. I have noticed that very few of those who have participated in our discussions have been able to get to grips with the subject without their help.
    Let us suppose that there is an election in progress between A, B and C, and I will ask the Committee to make the further supposition that there are only 12 voters. Of course, you can multiply those 12 by any factor you like to bring the matter into relation with realities, but, for the sake of illustration, let us suppose there are 12 voters. Under the Government scheme, let us suppose that at the first count A gets five first preferences, B four and C three. In our present scheme of the majority vote, A is elected by a majority of one vote. He is the winner in the ordinary sense. He is preferred by the majority of electors in the constituency as their first

    1017
    choice. However, what we have to look for is some scheme which does not allow the winner to be the winner, and gives the prize to somebody else who does not win. That, of course, underlies the whole idea of the Alternative Vote. And so we have got to proceed beyond the point of declaring the man who comes first to be the winner. The Government scheme declares the man who comes in second to be the winner. That was at first received with enthusiasm by the Liberal Opposition, because in those days they were still running second. But the enthusiasm for the scheme has, perhaps, somewhat waned, now that even that modest position is not often occupied by the Liberal candidate.
    Under the Government scheme on this occasion, C with his three votes is thrown out. Let us suppose, in order to follow out the working of the scheme, that all C's three voters preferred B to A; that is like supposing that when the Liberal is at the bottom of the poll—a not unnatural position in present conditions—all the Liberal voters prefer the Socialist to the Conservative. Then, at the second count, under the Government scheme, A will receive five votes and B seven, and B, who ran second, will be elected by a majority of two. Now in fact that result may be against the wishes of the majority of the electors. In order to demonstrate that that is so, we have only to suppose—a very natural supposition—that all A's five voters would have preferred C to B. [Interruption.] I will make the generous assumption that at this election all the Conservative electors would prefer the Liberal to the Socialist. Suppose all A's five voters preferred C to B, and suppose there was a match at this election between B and C. The result would be that B got only four votes and C eight, so that C would be elected in preference to B by a majority of four. He is better than B. Let me further make the very easy assumption that all B's four voters would prefer C to A. Assuming a match between B and A, C would get seven votes and A five. C is better than A. So in our story of A, B and C the same stone that was rejected is really the head of the corner. Under the Government scheme, C would be contemptuously thrown out, whereas if he had had a fair chance against A and B, he would have been elected in both cases
    1018
    by a thumping majority. He is the man really preferred by the majority of electors, and the Government scheme is proved to have been, in the old Euclidian tag, absurd.
    The truth is that that state of affairs is extremely likely to occur under the three-party system which we have at present. Let me remind the Committee that when the scheme of the alternative vote was recommended by the Royal Commission in 1910, a recommendation upon which so much is based in the arguments adduced, it was specifically recommended by them as applicable to the conditions which then prevailed, that there were practically only two parties in the field. It was specifically said by the Royal Commission, who gave to this question the most profound consideration, that it was unsuitable for the three-party system. The reason why it is unsuitable is that this method under the three-party system leads to a result which is completely arbitrary. The other day, when he was introducing the Bill, the Home Secretary told us:
    "There are in the main, as I say, only three parties, as far as they are parties which can at any time in the immediate, or even remote future hope to form a Government."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1931; col. 1472, Vol. 247.]
    Even so, if there are only three parties, the Government system fails. But the Home Secretary is unduly optimistic in thinking that there are only three parties before the country. There is, for instance, the rising party led by the hon. Member for Smethwick (Sir O. Mosley), who is so satisfied with the initial result of the appearance of his party before the country. If that party continues to rise, we may shortly be presented with at least four parties between which the country has to make a choice.
    I think I have said enough to demonstrate—if I may use even so definite a word—that the Government scheme is imperfect, that it leads to no certain result, and that it is not capable of doing what the alternative vote professes to be able to do. Now let me very briefly explain the method which is proposed in this Amendment. This is a method devised by an eminent mathematician, Professor Nanson, of the University of Melbourne, and although I agree that it looks rather formidable on paper, we can encourage ourselves with the belief that

    1019
    its complexity, as it appears on the paper, is only the result of the very careful drafting necessary in an Act of Parliament. Simple things very often look very complex when the draftsman has finished with them. Really this is a very simple scheme indeed. All that is required of the elector is that he should vote for the candidates in the order of his choice, one, two, three, four and five, or as many candidates as there may be. That does not require any greater intelligence on the part of the elector than the scheme in the Bill, where he has two preferences; he can easily carry on to three and four.
    It presents no greater complexity to the voter than the scheme in the Bill, but when you come to the enumerator, who has to work out the result, admittedly there is more complexity, but in that case you have skilful and expert persons to deal with the matter. What have they to do? In their case the principle is this, that in the order of preference each vote counts one more than the one next below it. That is surely a very simple proposition. What indeed could be more simple or more obvious? If there are three candidates to the first name you give two votes, to the second name one vote, and to the last name no vote at all. When you have done that you go ahead with a process which is not so difficult. A third of the total votes you call the average. If you have three candidates all three cannot be above the average, one must be rejected. The Committee will see that the lowest candidate must be below the average. It is impossible for all three candidates to be above the average. The candidate who gets less than the average goes out, as he does in the Government scheme. But he goes out for a much better reason.
    The second candidate may be above or below the average. If he is below the average out he goes too, and the election is over. One candidate has a clear majority of the votes polled, and, as must be the case in every election, he is at once elected. If two candidates have more than the average there must be a second scrutiny. In this case each elector has only one vote, which is counted for the remaining candidate who stands highest in the order of his preference.
    1020
    That is all there is to it. What could be more simple? Some slight sacrifice has to be made to attain a really logical system; you cannot have anything perfect in this world without taking some trouble. If there are more than three candidates in the election, you have to pursue exactly the same method with a little more complexity. You will have a series of scrutinies at each. Any candidate with less than the average is thrown out and the choice between the other candidates is ascertained in the manner I have described. The essence of the method is giving different values to different votes, giving more to the higher choice than to the lower.
    However, the hardest part of my task is still before me. It would not be doing justice to this scheme to lay it before the Committee without producing the proof that it is a scheme which achieves what it professes to achieve, as distinct from the Government scheme—namely, that it makes absolutely certain that the wishes of the majority of the voters in the division shall prevail and that it is impossible to reject a candidate who is actually preferred by the majority of voters, as poor C was rejected in the election we held first. This is the proof, and it is certainly one which requires the closest attention. I remember the Prime Minister speaking rather scornfully of the application of mathematics to such a practical question as elections, but, nevertheless, if it is the only way in which you can prove that the scheme you are bringing in is not humbug I do not see any alternative to giving the proof in that manner. Let me follow closely in the footsteps of the competent mathematician who first demonstrated to an eager and expectant world that this was the only consistent method of the Alternative Vote.
    Let me point out to the Committee what I am sure is already clear, that it is enough for me to show that if A in the three-cornered election is preferred to B and C by a majority of the electors, under the method I am propounding he cannot be rejected on the first scrutiny, as poor C was rejected. Although he was preferred to A and B, poor C was thrown out on the first scrutiny and never got a chance. He was left at the post, and that is a most unsatisfactory way of deciding a race. I want to show that A cannot be left at the post if he is preferred

    1021
    to B and C by a majority of the electors. I have to show that he cannot be rejected at the first scrutiny. If he is not rejected at the first scrutiny he must win at the second, in the straight fight. I have to ask the Committee to agree to let the whole number of electors be equal to 2N. Then let those who prefer B to C be represented by N + a. Consequently, those who prefer C to B will be N - a. We can find other beautiful expressions for other possible preferences.
    It is easy now to see that the number of votes polled by A, B and C respectively at the first scrutiny will be

    2N

    -b

    +c

    2N

    -c

    +a

    2N

    -a

    +b.

    [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"] I am fortunate to have carried the Committee with me so far. But I have to attempt to carry the Committee with me a further and a longer step, and to agree that 2N-b + c is necessarily greater than 2N. All depends upon that; that is the vital step in the argument; and the Committee will be satisfied that it is so if they appreciate the striking fact that 6 is a negative quantity. It is impossible for b to be otherwise than a negative quantity. It is an enormously negative quantity. Then as A will have more than one-third of the votes he has more than the average of the votes polled and cannot be rejected at the first scrutiny. That is what we set out to prove. I have demonstrated that this method will certainly bring about the correct result. I agree that it is a proof which is not easy to digest wholly on the spur of the moment but I am sure the Committee will agree that if the proof holds, and I am confident it does, we have provided for our consideration a really satisfactory method of the Alternative Vote which is capable of achieving all that the Alternative Vote sets out to achieve. It is a modest claim. But there are certain difficulties left.
    I have to make a further confession to the Committee, and that is that the whole of this theory of the perfected Alternative Vote depends on a certain supposition. I can best show what that supposition is by comparing it with what often happens in the football world. Sometimes team A beats team B, and team B beats C, but team C upsets all calculations
    1022
    by beating team A. This perfected Alternative Vote, and, indeed, every scheme of the Alternative Vote perfected or unperfected, depends on the supposition that if A is preferred to B, and B is preferred to C, then A is also preferred to C. As a matter of fact, in this very human world it may turn out to be otherwise. When you are dealing with so irrational a thing as the voter, he may express a preference for A to B and for B to C, and then turn round and prefer C to A. It is quite impossible to deal in this imperfect world with that alternative, and it is one of the things which makes nonsense of any sort of Alternative Vote. But our scheme does have a try even at this difficulty. It effects this results, that of these three self-destructive propositions it rejects that affirmed by the smallest majority. Although the scheme I have laid before the Committee does not in this matter produce a perfect result, although it is imperfect, as every scheme for an Alternative Vote must be, it is less imperfect than any other scheme.
    The Committee may ask what about the effect of incomplete papers on the arithmetical perfection of your scheme? I am prepared to deal with that difficulty. We have not heard a word as to how the Government are going to deal with it under their scheme. If they do not deal with it their scheme is reduced to mere nonsense. A large proportion of the voting papers under the Alternative Vote are not completed. I have heard of one colonial election where only 50 per cent. of the voters expressed their second preference. What is to become of a scheme in which there is no provision made for these obvious cases? [An HON. MEMBER: "You cannot force the voters to indicate their preference!"] Experience has shown that those countries which have tried the Alternative Vote have found it so unsatisfactory, in view of the number of incomplete papers, that many of them have been driven even to try to force the voters into expressing their preferences as the only way of making the Alternative Vote a success.
    I do not propose any such violent methods. With the assistance of the ingenious inventor of this scheme, I have a gentler and easier method of getting round the difficulty; and it is this. Suppose,

    1023
    again, you have an election in which there are three candidates. An incomplete vote in that case means a plumper for one candidate. How are you going to deal with that? I ask hon. Members to make one supposition. If the voter casts a plumper he is equally favourable or unfavourable to the two candidates for whom he does not vote. He has expressed complete indifference to them. We deal with that in this way; that you count his vote, not as two, but as one and a-half—[Interruption.] I hear some derisive cheers. May I point out that the derision does not hit this beautiful scheme. The derision hits the imperfect scheme in order to remedy which you have to introduce these complexities. If we are to have a scientific method of election let us be perfect in our science and in the case of the plumper count the first vote as one and a-half. If you have imperfect votes when there are more than three candidates you have to be prepared to take some trouble again in order to introduce reason into your system. You have to give one vote to the candidate marked lowest, and so on, one more to each of the candidates above him in the order of preference, until as many votes are given to the candidate marked first as the names marked. It can be done without much trouble, and in any case one must suffer in order to have perfection in an imperfect world.
    There is only one other thing to particularise. This method may call for the keeping of a poll book in which the votes are to be entered, but that will be a very simple administrative change. Finally, this proposal undoubtedly eliminates the arbitrary element from the method of the Alternative Vote. Other methods which are proposed are full of arbitrary factors. This proposal gets rid completely of the arbitrary element and substitutes for it a method by which the will of the electors really prevails. That is important. The vital objection to the alternative in the form in which it is proposed in the Bill is that it introduced an element of chance which will gravely impair the authority of an election and of the member elected therein. I cannot imagine anything more disastrous for our public life and for democratic institutions than that, as a result of the crudely imperfect
    1024
    methods of the Government scheme, you should reduce an ordinary elector to this frame of mind—"I hardly know for whom I voted. I do not know how or why this fellow who succeeded was returned. I do not know what it is that he represents in the constituency." I ask the Government to substitute for that method one which is the best that can be got out of a ridiculous lot.
    Captain BOURNE: I wish to support the Amendment, because, although it has perhaps some mathematical complexities, I feel that it is the only method under the Alternative Vote which would, in fact, produce a result at which the Alternative Vote professes to aim. We have always been told that the object of the Alternative Vote is to reduce the chance of a candidate being elected by a majority and to ensure the choice of the one on whom there is the greatest common measure of agreement. Under the scheme of the Government, that is by no means likely to happen. From calculations I have made, it would seem that the general result of carrying out the scheme of the Home Secretary would be to cause the elected candidate who really had the least amount of support to win the constituency. The scheme will not give representation to minorities. There is nothing in the Government scheme to ensure that the worst candidate is not elected. It is said that the present system of the straight vote does not guarantee the worst candidate not getting in, but at least it ensures that the man who has the largest solid following gets elected. The Government scheme ensures nothing, but the scheme of the Amendment at least enables the views of the electors to be taken as to the different candidates, and the one who gets the greatest measure of support from all sections of the community will ultimately be returned as the elected candidate. The Government's suggestion fails in that is is discredited and it merely introduces unnecessary complications into our election machinery. As my right hon. Friend said, if we are to have an alteration, let it at least be one that has been worked out to give the most nearly theoretically perfect result, and that, I believe, the system which he recommends to the Committee will achieve.

    1025
    Ever since elections started, mathematicians in all parts of the world have been trying to work out some system which would represent more accurately the feelings of a constituency than the simple system of first past the post. This system which we are now putting forward was one started by Condorcet in 1782, and finally brought to perfection by Mr. Nanson in 1881. The case for it is very simple. If you have three candidates standing, and, if there are only two of them standing at any given election, so that first A fights B, then A fights C and then B fights C, you would get the result that a different candidate would be returned at the head of the poll in a straight fight. I apologise for again introducing A, B, and C, but there is really no other method of expressing the argument.
    I have taken the case of three candidates A, B and C. A gets 25 votes, B 20, and C 15. Under the present system, A would be elected. But if we assume that there is a second preference given and if we also assume that B is the middle party it is not unreasonable to suppose that B's 20 votes are divided between the other two and this gives 10 to A and 10 to C; but A, the largest party, has 25 votes, and we assume that all A's second preferences go to C, and that C gives the whole of his second preferences to B. On a straight vote between A and C, A would have 25 votes of the first preferences for himself and 10 second preferences from B, giving A a total of 35 votes, while C would have 15 original votes and 10 votes from B. A would therefore get a majority, having 35 votes as against C's 15. If we now take a straight fight between A and B, A would only get his original 25, but B would get his 20, together with 15 votes transferred to C, making 35 in all, and B would be elected. But if the election is between C and B, C would get his original 15 together with the transfer of 25 to A, giving him a total of 40, and B would get only 20. Therefore, you get the very remarkable calculation that every time in these elections in which there was a straight fight between two candidates we get a different candidate elected and that B is preferred to A, but A is preferred to C, who in his turn is preferred to B. If you take the Government's proposals now before the Committee,
    1026
    C having the fewest first preferences is eliminated, his second preferences, 15 in number, go to B, who gets 35 votes against A's 25, and B is elected.
    Under my right hon. Friend's scheme the thing would work out slightly differently. A would get his original 25, together with 10 votes transferred from A's. A's first preferences count double. His total vote is 50 in respect of his own first preferences, plus 10 transferred from B, or a total of 60. B would get 40 votes, his 20 first preferences counting two each, together with 15 transferred from C, making a total of 55; and C would get 30 first preferences, together with 35 second preferences, or a total of 65 votes. So B, who is elected under the Government scheme, would under this scheme be the least favoured by the electorate of all the different candidates, and as the most unpopular candidate would go to the bottom of the poll. If you add up the votes given you will finally come to the total number of votes, 180. One-third of that is 60, and the only person who gets over the quota is C, who would be elected, although under the Government scheme C is the man who would be arbitrarily excluded, despite the fact that he has the biggest amount of support.
    The case is a little more difficult with four candidates. We cannot assume that we shall have only three-corner contests in future elections. I am speaking from memory, but I believe that in the last election there were 23 contests in which four or more candidates were nominated. With the rise of the New party, with which we are threatened by the hon. Member for Smethwick (Sir O. Mosley), and possible candidates supported by newspapers, we may look forward to at least a considerable number of four-cornered contests at the next General Election, and in that case, if we are to have the Alternative Vote, there must be some method which will prevent second preferences becoming totally ineffective. If we assume that A, B, C and D receive respectively 25, 20, 15 and 10 votes, it is quite conceivable that D, the bottom candidate, will give his second preferences to C, and that C will give his to D. Under the Government scheme the result will be that both sets of second preferences are completely wasted, as

    1027
    there is no provision for either C or D supporters exercising a preference as between A and B. The Government are doing absolutely nothing in their suggestions to get rid of this particular difficulty. Nor are they taking any steps to prevent the occurrence of which hon. Gentlemen on the Liberal benches complain so bitterly, namely, the return of a majority of this House by a minority vote.
    It seems to me that the same condition has not only to be met with four-cornered contests, but that counting the votes fairly in these four-cornered contests, so that the preferences given to the two bottom candidates will have due weight and be given to a choice between the candidates who are respectively first and second. Under the Government scheme such a choice would be completely excluded. If you take our friends A, B, C and add a further friend D. We assume that A gets 25, B 20, C 15 and D 10. Under the Government scheme D is struck off. If we assume that D divides his second preference votes equally between C and B, the effect will be that B will receive five more votes, bringing his total up to 20, and C will go. When you take C's second preferences, I have assumed that C gives five votes to A and 10 to B. A had 25 original preferences, B had 20, but B had also five votes transferred from D. He will now get an addition of 10 second preferences to C, giving B a total of 35. A will have 25 plus five, to get a total of 30 votes. Therefore B will have 35 votes as against A's 30, and be elected. Yet under my right hon. Friend's scheme B is the least popular candidate.
    I have worked it out. You come to this very remarkable result, showing how far the Government scheme will fail to reflect the feeling of the constituency. Under that scheme A will get 120, C 115, whereas B, the gentleman who would be elected under the Government scheme, will go to the bottom of the poll and be excluded from the first count.
    It is true that it will be necessary to have a second count, as has already been explained, as between A and C, but if the second and third votes transferred to different candidates go in the main to
    1028
    them it will be the case that these two are the candidates who command the greatest amount of support from all sections of the community, and that B—the man who would get in under the Government scheme—is the man who commands the least amount of confidence. I do not think that the system outlined in the proposals of the Government can be defended, logically, and it is a system which has been applied nowhere else in the world where the Alternative Vote has been tried. We shall have an opportunity later on of discussing the different ways in which the Alternative Vote has been applied in different parts of the world, but I think it may be said that nowhere has the scheme now put forward by the Government been attempted. It is an ill-considered scheme, and one which is not likely to result in the election of the most popular candidate. On the contrary, it is calculated to secure the return of the candidate who is least wanted. For that reason, I support my right hon. Friend's scheme as being, at least, logical, and far more likely to achieve the results which supporters of the Alternative Vote have always claimed for that system.
    Mr. PHILIP OLIVER: I think that most of those who are interested in electoral reform will agree with the Mover of the Amendment that the Alternative Vote is a very poor form of electoral reform, and that the particular form of Alternative Vote which is at present to be found in the Government's Bill is a poor form of the Alternative Vote. There are certain other Amendments down on the Paper to-day the effect of which will be to make the Alternative Vote proposed in the Bill a rather more admirable system than it is at present, and, if it were not for those Amendments, I should be inclined to approve of and support the Amendment now before the Committee. As there are those other Amendments to be considered, one is bound to look critically at this system which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young) has brought before us in order to see whether or not it is a practical system.
    It was first launched upon an expectant world, as I think the right hon. Gentleman, said by Professor E. J. Nanson on 12th October, 1882—two years before I was born—and ever since then no one has ever adopted it, in all the

    1029
    innumerable constitutions which have sprung into existence during a more or less democratic period, not because it is not theoretically perfect, but, I venture to submit, because it is not practicable in its working. When going home at the week-end I spent the greater part of the time during the journey from London to Manchester in making all sorts of calculations and conducting all sorts of theoretical elections on this basis. I think generally it works out quite well—if you can conduct the election in a railway carriage.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: Did the Liberal always get in?
    Mr. OLIVER: It generally got in the person who ought to be in, whether Liberal, Conservative or Socialist. But we have not to consider elections which can be conducted in this House or elections which can be carried out, like a crossword puzzle, in a railway carriage. We have not even to consider elections such as might be carried out in the council of a university or for a professorship. I believe that Professor Nanson himself, in a later paper, agreed that his system would be a difficult system in the hurly burly of politics, but was a perfect system for electing professors of universities and in other cases in which the electors sat down, calmly and dispassionately, and without political prejudice, to try to find out the very best man for a particular position. But that does not hold good in regard to political elections. What would happen in practice under this system if applied to an election to Parliament? Supposing there are not three but four candidates, A, B, C and D and that A is the man whom I want to elect. I give him my first preference and he gets three votes. Two votes go to B and one vote goes to C. I have therefore given six votes, three to the man whom I want to get in and three to other men whom I do not want to get in and although I have distributed those other votes between two other candidates my votes really cancel out each other.
    If all these six votes are going to be added up in the first count and then divided by the number of candidates and if the man who gets above the average is going to have a chance of election, while the man who is below the average
    1030
    is going to be excluded, then, as I have given two votes to B and one vote to C, I have helped them to that extent to get above the average, and, in so far as I have done so, I have helped to depress the man whom I want to elect below the average. If we go still further and imagine an election in which there are not four but five candidates, what will happen? I do not assume that Members of the Liberal party will ever fight each other at a General Election or at by-elections but there is always the possibility of two Members from different benches of the Labour party or two Members from different benches of the Conservative party coming forward at an election. If there are five candidates, then I give four votes to the man whom I want to get in, and distribute my other votes among other candidates—that is to say, I give four votes to the man I want to get in, and six votes to men whom I do not want to get in. Therefore not only do I cancel out my votes, but I actually give more votes, distributed among the others, than I give to the man whom I want to get in, and in so far as I have given those votes to the others, I have helped all of those candidates, whom I do not want to get in, to get above the average.
    If we were calmly and dispassionately considering the best man to be a professor in a university or treasurer of a church or chapel, this is a perfect system but when you are using it for the purposes of an election to Parliament, then, for either Liberals or Conservatives or Socialists to advise their supporters, not only to vote for their own candidate but also to cast their other votes for their opponents, to be used in the first count, will be putting an unnecessary strain upon them and it will be found that, so far from people indulging in this admirable practice of marking their preferences, every voter who is a real politician will plump for his own man. For these reasons, not because it is theoretically unsound but because it seems impracticable in the hurly-burly of politics, I cannot support the right hon. Gentleman's proposal.
    Lord ERSKINE: The hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. P. Oliver) started by saying that he thought the Government scheme a poor type of a poor system and we cordially agree. We do not often

    1031
    hear such an expression of opinion from the Liberal benches but here we actually have a Member of the Liberal party saying, in effect, that they are, for their own purposes, seeking to impose what is really a second-rate form of electioneering on this country and I think that is a very valuable admission. I do not wish to go into the long algebraical calculations which have been made by previous speakers but I think that in his calculations the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment showed very lucidly indeed how his proposed system would work. It is not in any way an easy matter to explain and I am sure the Committee will agree that the right hon. Gentleman explained the Nanson scheme as well as it could possibly be explained. The hon. Member for Blackley objected to the scheme because it was complicated and I have no doubt that the Solicitor-General, or whoever replies on behalf of the Government, will make the same remark. It will no doubt, be said that the scheme is perfect in theory, and that it works mathematically, but that it cannot be worked in practice. It is to that argument that I shall address myself.
    Who is the man who really counts in an election? The man for whom the system has to be made easy is not the candidate, or the returning officer, but the voter, and in regard to this system there is no more difficulty for the individual voter than there is under Proportional Representation, or under the Government's scheme. Where the difficulty arises is not while the votes are being cast but after they have been cast and I suggest that it is not beyond the wit of man to find a gentleman in each of the 615 divisions of this country who will be able to do what is to a mathematician the comparatively simple calculation involved in this scheme. When we are changing the electoral system, although it is admitted on all sides that we are changing to a second-rate system, we should none the less, seek the best second-rate system that we can possibly find. Everybody admits that the Government scheme may, possibly, work, in a way, in cases where there are only three candidates, but that it breaks down hopelessly in cases where there are more than three candidates. The scheme of my right hon. Friend has been put forward
    1032
    to obviate that difficulty and to see that that candidate is returned whom the electorate really desire to see at the head of the poll. That is the reason for this Amendment.
    I am sorry that we have not had any remarks on this subject from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). He has spoken on almost every Amendment in connection with this Measure so far, and as he is always extremely lucid the Committee, I am sure, would have been pleased to hear his explanation of this very complicated scheme. HON. MEMBERS: "Simple!"] Some of my hon. Friends here say it is simple, and I agree that it is simple for the voter, but I think that it may be highly complicated when it reaches the point at which the returning officer is adding up the votes. At the beginning I said that that is really no argument against the scheme, and I hope that the Solicitor-General, if he replies for the Government, will not use it as an argument. What he has to prove is that the Government scheme is a good one, and one that will work, and in order to destroy the scheme which we put forward he has to prove that the ordinary elector would not be able to understand it. I think it will be difficult to prove that the ordinary elector cannot mark 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 against the names of the candidates in the order which he desires. Therefore, I hope that the Solicitor-General will find a better argument than that which has already been used from the Liberal benches.
    5.0 p.m.
    I was surprised to hear the suggestion made that in future there are only going to be three candidates at elections. I think there may be a great many more. Anybody in this country, if he can get nominated by 12 electors, has the right to stand for the House of Commons, and, if we go back over the records of General Elections for many years past, we find that in a great many Divisions there have been more than three candidates. You may call them freak candidates if you like, but they have a perfect right to stand and it is part of the English Constitution that they should have the right to stand. In a Debate the other day an hon. Lady on the Labour benches said, as I understood, that she thought that elections in future would be stereotyped as between the three existing parties. She did not

    1033
    see why any new party should arise. But, after all, the party which now occupies the Government benches did not exist 30 years ago, and I wonder what the late Mr. Keir Hardie would have said if he had heard that hon. Lady putting forward such a proposition. We have to make provision, when we are 5.0 p.m. altering the electoral law, for any number of candidates. The Constitution itself takes no cognisance of parties at all. You have to send a writ to the returning officer for an election, and anyone can stand, whatever may be his views. He need not belong to one of the recognised parties. Therefore, in altering the electoral law, we have to make a system whereby any number of candidates may stand, and we have to see that, if they stand, we get a proper and mathematical result. That is why I support the Amendment. I agree that from the returning officer's point of view it is not simple. Nevertheless, from the voter's point of view, it is just as simple as any of the other schemes of alternative voting which have been put before us; and, therefore, I am prepared to go into the Lobby in support of the Amendment.
    Mr. GODFREY WILSON: I should not have risen to speak if it had not been for the fact that Professor Nanson happens to have been the first professor under whom I studied. I knew him very intimately in Australia, and it was owing to him that I left Australia to enter Cambridge University. He was a very celebrated mathematician. The whole question of the Alternative Vote is ultimately dependent on mathematical calculations, and I therefore think it 13 unfair for the Prime Minister to sneer at mathematics. He appeals to the mathematicians to support the Alternative Vote, and then he refuses to go the whole way with mathematics and to accept the only possible perfect method, namely, that which has been proposed to-day by the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young). He wants to use mathematics half-way, to take mathematics just as far as it will help him, and then he wants to refuse to accept it to its logical conclusion. There is one other thing in regard to mathematics that I would like to say. There is not a single person here whose daily life is not dependent upon the
    1034
    accuracy of mathematical calculations. You cannot travel by train, or by ship, or by aeroplane unless you are putting your trust in the mathematicians, and therefore I support this Amendment.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Stafford Cripps): I am sure that everybody on this side has the most profound respect for mathematics, but I would remind the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. G. Wilson) that a great many people who have a profound respect for mathematics certainly cannot travel in the area of higher mathematics, and those who are accustomed to use mathematics in ordinary life only use them half way, and very seldom go to the logical conclusion to which mathematics might lead them if they went on with their studies. The right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young), in introducing this Amendment, has adopted an argument which might be called the reductio ad perfectum—that is to say, producing an absurdity by following the logical desire to get perfection—and it is some comment on this system which he has put forward that for over 50 years it has been known and has been a possibility, and yet it has never yet been adopted.
    The Noble Lord the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Lord Erskine) said that it would be no good my stating that this scheme was difficult to carry out, because it was perfectly simple for an elector to write down six preferences, or whatever the number might be, according to the number of candidates standing at an election; but I would remind him that other people than the electors are responsible for the counting of the votes, and they are not in all cases skilled mathematicians, and although it may not be necessary that they should be skilled mathematicians, it is necessary that they should have a very high degree of intelligence if they are to carry through this system correctly. No doubt it was to that that the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks referred when, on the 4th March, he thus spoke of the Nanson system:
    "Systems have been devised and proposed—there was one proposed by an eminent Norwegian mathematician, Professor Nanson"—

    1035
    No doubt at that stage of his studies in this matter he was tricked into the belief that all Nansons were Norwegians—
    "which would get over the difficulty and result in a man who has really got the majority of first preferences and second preferences beng elected, but it is so difficult to work that it has been unanimously dismissed in practice by all those acquainted with electioneering in the world of facts."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1931; col. 488, Vol. 249.]
    The right hon. Gentleman, by studying the Blue Book which contains all the information which he has so kindly given us this afternoon, and a great deal more, has no doubt, since then, been converted to the practical nature of the Nanson scheme, but I think the Committee may justly complain of the right hon. Gentleman in that he only took them half way through the mathematics of the system. He left them at a very critical point indeed, and he skipped over at least three-quarters of a column of the Blue Book, which is most material if one is to follow the logic and really appreciate the equation which he put before us.
    Sir H. YOUNG: The remedy is in the Solicitor-General's hands.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The right hon. Gentleman speaks quite accurately. It is in my hands, and it is indeed in the hands of a great many other Members of the Committee, but I do not propose to transfer it from my hands through my mouth into the brains of the Members of this Committee, because I think that that would probably be inexcusable, in view of the vast complexity of the problem. Examples were given us by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the way in which the Government scheme would operate. He took the three gentlemen, A, B and C, and 12 votes, and he made certain assumptions as regards second preferences. His assumptions, if one looks at them, are very curious. If I may take the unlikely case of A, who got five votes as being a Conservative candidate, the second, B, being Labour, and the third, C, being Liberal, I find that nobody under any circumstances gave the Conservative a second choice. That may be quite right, but it is very curious, and although all the Conservatives preferred Liberals, all the Liberals preferred Labour. Of course, one can take such extraordinary assumptions as that you are going to have
    1036
    a 100 per cent. transfer of votes from one party to another, and yet that other party will not transfer any of its votes to the first, and under those circumstances you will arrive at curious results, no doubt.
    Then, if I may take the example which the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) gave, as regards A, B and C—I am afraid I cannot go into the other examples, because I could not take them down quickly enough—on his assumption, as I understand it, according to what he thinks right, A would be elected by a straight election; according to the Government system, B would be elected; and according to the Nanson system, C would be elected. What I do not understand is whether the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford thinks the Nanson system or the one at present in existence is the better, because they elect different candidates. If he says, of course, that the present system must be wrong, because A is elected, then I can understand his argument that the Nanson system is better, but if he says that the present system is right, by which A is elected, that must necessarily, in his view, condemn the Nanson system altogether.
    The argument against the Nanson system, I think, has been put, in words upon which I could not possibly improve, by the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks on the 4th March, that its complexity makes it impossible. It is seeking after a perfection which in this world one cannot attain. The system which is proposed at present in the Bill is a system which, as the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford said, is a very simple one indeed, and it has that great virtue of simplicity. It also has the virtue that under no circumstances is anyone elected against whom there is a majority in the constituency; that is to say, under no circumstances can the least popular candidate be elected. Having that advantage, and being a short way of achieving what is really a second ballot, it is, in our view, the right and proper way of putting the alternative vote into force. For those reasons, it would be impossible for us to consider the acceptance of such a complicated system as the Nanson system.
    Mr. ANNESLEY SOMERVILLE: Those who have spoken have admitted that the Nanson system is the most perfect, if not the perfect system. In fact

    1037
    the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. P. Oliver) admitted that it was a perfect system, and he added that what we want is a simple system. That is exactly what we on these benches want, so why not let well alone? We have a simple system at the present time, which everybody understands, and if we are to change our system, let us not change a simple system for a more complicated one, as the Alternative Vote undoubtedly is, but if we are to change to a more complicated system, why not change to a perfect system? Undoubtedly the Nanson system is the most perfect system which has been evolved up to the present time. The learned Solicitor-General argued against this system that it had not been adopted, although it had been before the world for 50 years. It is argued on the other side of the House that education has advanced greatly in the last 50 years, and I should say that we are now ripe for the adoption of such a system.
    This system commends itself to me because it undoubtedly makes the chief factor in an election the average support of the constituency for each candidate. After the votes have been cast, you find what is the average weight of opinion in the constituency for each candidate, the total number of votes is divided by the number of candidates, and any candidate who receives less than the average number of votes is very properly cast out. Then, if only one candidate has received above the average number of votes, he is elected very properly, and if more than two receive above the average number of votes, the process is continued, and eventually you arrive undoubtedly at a just appreciation of the opinion of the constituency with regard to the candidates.
    A great deal has been urged with regard to the complicated nature of this system, but, as has been pointed out by more than one speaker the complication will exist not in the polling booths, but in the counting room, and there you have a number of intelligent people and you certainly have one expert who can give directions. Therefore, it seems to me that the objection urged that the system is too complicated does not obtain. If we are to change our simple system for a complicated one, which has the additional disadvantage that it may lead to wangling between the parties, let us
    1038
    change to a perfect system such as the one proposed in the Amendment.
    Mr. AMERY: The Solicitor-General, in what was, I think, a very inadequate answer, rejected the proposal of my right hon. Friend the Member for Seven-oaks (Sir H. Young) outright, on the ground that its complexity makes it impossible, but he made no attempt to distinguish between actual complexities in working and difficulty of definition in the language of a Statute or in speeches in this House. There is a very great difference between the two things. It would be very difficult in the language of a Clause or a Schedule to define the shape of a very ordinary instrument, the corkscrew. It would also be very difficult for any hon. Member to justify easily in a speech the dynamics by which the corkscrew works. On the other hand, there is extremely little difficulty in practice in using a corkscrew for its proper function. In exactly the same way, we need only ask ourselves how this system will be worked either by the voter or by the counting clerk to see that it is in no respect intrinsically much more difficult than the Government scheme, and that it at any rate enables the scheme to fulfil the purpose for which it is avowedly introduced.
    As an illustration of the difficulty of dealing with these mathematical questions in Debate, I would point out that the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. P. Oliver), with the general approval of those who were listening to him, suggested that under my right hon. Friend's proposal voters would tend to plump, because by not plumping they would give as many votes to the other side as they were giving to their candidate. Surely, if you plump under my right hon. Friend's proposal, you give your candidate only one vote. If, on the other hand, you give second and third preferences, you give your candidate three votes, and, while you retain the advantage of your candidate over the next candidate, you give him two votes over the man whom you like still less, and three over the man you most dislike. Obviously, it is an advantage to fill in as many preferences as possible, because it gives the maximum advantage to your own side. The Solicitor-General complained that my

    1039
    right hon. Friend's speech was a reductio ad perfectum. Surely he had forgotten that my right hon. Friend at the outset dismissed the idea of the Alternative Vote ever being made a perfect system. What he did was to begin with a reductio ad absurdum of the Government scheme, and then to reduce it to something a little less absurd. I should like to follow on slightly different lines the same course. The avowed object of the Measure we are discussing is to secure, in the language of the Prime Minister, that those who are here in this House represent a majority in the constituencies. It may be that some form of Alternative Vote might secure that end The Government scheme does not.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) dived back into history to 1782 for a scheme of alternative voting which might work. There came back in a flash to my mind the fact that the Alternative Vote goes back a great deal earlier. The first, and I think the last, time of which I know in history when the Alternative Vote was satisfactorily used was in 480 B.C. when, after the Battle of Salamis, the Greek admirals were asked to vote who had rendered the greatest service to the cause of Greece and of freedom. They all gave themselves the first vote, and Themistocles the second. That was the last occasion on which the Alternative Vote worked successfully. The system in Alberta and Australia of which we have heard is better than the system which the Government propose, because it allows for third and fourth votes, but even that system does not work effectively. What are the reasons why the scheme in the Government Schedule does not carry out the object that they desire to see carried out? My right hon. Friend proved only too clearly that the result depends largely on the accident of who is at the bottom of the poll and in no sense represents the consensus of opinion in a constituency as to whom people would like elected if they do not get the man of their choice.
    My right hon. Friend dealt with A, B and C. I should prefer to give the more concrete instance of the recent Shipley by-election. Some 16,000 voters
    1040
    voted for the Conservative candidate, 15,000 for Labour and 12,000 for Liberal. If you had had the Alternative Vote then—I do not know what would happen now after the recent by-elections—the assumption would be that on the whole the majority of the Liberal voters would give their second vote to the Labour candidate. Therefore, under the Government scheme the Labour candidate would be elected. But, if you take the second choice of the Conservatives, the majority of them would be given to the Liberals, and would secure the election of the Liberal. Last, but not least, in view of the whole trend of the election, where workers in the woollen industry were divided between their allegiance to Socialism and their recognition of the need for safeguarding their industry, it is perfectly possible that quite enough second votes of those cast for Labour would have been given for the Conservative candidate to elect him. You would get, therefore, three different results according to whose second votes you take into account. Does not that show clearly that the only fair system is one under which all second votes are taken into account?
    The system proposed by the Government has a further serious drawback that it is only workable, if at all, on the assumption that there are not more than three candidates in the field. On that assumption only was the Prime Minister justified in saying that the scheme of the Alternative Vote unites the methods of the second ballot and the first ballot, and that you do both processes at the same time. That was repeated just now by the Solicitor-General. That is not in the least true if you have more than three candidates, and if only second preferences are allowed. Suppose you have four candidates with these figures: Conservative, 12,000; Liberal, 10,000; Official Socialist, 5,000 and some branch of unofficial Socialism, 4,000. The second preferences of the unofficial Socialist are given to the official Socialist, but do not prevent him being excluded, and thereupon those second preferences are carried no further. The preferences of the official Socialist might on balance be given to the Liberal. Enough third preferences of the unofficial Socialist might have gone to the Conservative, and if they had been reckoned an entirely

    1041
    different result would have emerged. There is the further possibility of the second preferences of the official Socialist being given to the unofficial Socialist, and in that case the two sections of the Socialist party would cancel each other out, and would have no influence upon the result of the election at all.
    If you had more than four candidates, the result would be even more absurd, and it is possible under the conditions which the Alternative Vote would encourage that you would get more than four. You might quite well have three candidates dividing up the vote of what is really a majority party in a constituency, and by giving their second preferences among each other, entirely cancelling out that majority. In the case I have quoted you might have three Socialist candidates, official, unofficial and Mosley, dividing 12,000 votes among them, and thereby having the largest total of votes in the constituency; and yet under the Government scheme they would be unable to save any of these candidates from exclusion, and unable to give any weight or effect to the votes they cast. That is a defect that another Amendment on the Paper endeavours to remedy, but even that does not remedy the further defect of the principle embodied in the Government scheme, namely, that when it excludes the candidate who gets the fewest number of votes of first choice, it gives his second preferences, votes that admittedly are not given with the same weight and consideration and the same purpose behind them as the first, exactly the same value as the first vote. The Amendment of my right hon. Friend, while it does not do away with the fundamental objections which most of us feel to a system of the Alternative Vote, does at any rate do two things. It enables all the votes cast to have the same weight and gives the first preference a definitely greater weight than the second preference, and to that extent answers the objection made by the hon. Member for Blackley. Surely these are very serious considerations if we are to embark at all upon any of those complicated schemes depending ultimately on mathematical considerations.
    On the whole, I am inclined to believe in the simple principle of the winner. After all, it is not only candidates, but
    1042
    alternative Governments who come before the country, and it is a good thing for the country to be faced with a straight issue of what Government it wants. If, however, you want to give weight to the other considerations, and are prepared to run the risk of a certain amount of complication and of confusion in the simple issue before the electorate, then go in for Proportional Representation, which does stand for something clear and consistent. The system which the Government are advocating is not likely to lead to results which will necessarily strengthen the hands of the Government or give minorities fair representation or lead to Parliament being a mirror of the nation; but, if you claim for it that it will give you a clear majority in a constituency, then the least you can do is to accept an Amendment which will not to any appreciable extent add to the voter's difficulties, or very seriously make difficulties for the counting officers greater than would be involved if other Amendments on the Paper were accepted which are essential if this scheme is to work and which have been adopted in every other country where the scheme has been applied, and where you are allowed to give third and fourth votes. They would, at any rate, do something to make the scheme work.
    I hope the Government will believe that this Amendment has been brought forward not as a mere jest but as a contribution in the spirit of what the Prime Minister called the Council of State, in order to make what we think a bad system a little less unworkable, according to its avowed object. Of course, that object is not the real object. If the object is not to secure majority representation in the constituencies, or a House of Commons more truly reflecting the nation, if its only object is to galvanise moribund parties into a new lease of life, and avert the dangers ahead at the next election, then, of course, it may serve its purpose. In that case, I think a better description of the Bill would be not a Representation of the People Bill, but a Liberal and Socialist Parties Transfusion of Blood Bill, a Bill under which two moribund parties will each sacrifice a number of their Members and, by the transfusion

    1043
    of their electoral blood, preserve the life of the rest. That may be of some interest to the Members of this House who are concerned, but I do not believe it is in the permanent interest of either of the parties affected, or of the country, and certainly it is not in the interest of the working of our Parliamentary constitution, and of the maintenance of that authority of Parliament which, at the present moment, is in many directions gravely impaired.
    Mr. HOLFORD KNIGHT: The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) has such a reputation as a skilful electioneer that I cannot think he has contemplated what can be the result of his proposals. I myself am a little hardened in these matters, but the effect of his observations upon the ordinary elector will be to frighten him from going to the poll at all. This Amendment is really an extraordinary abortion, which has been designed to reduce the Government proposals to sheer absurdity. In my judgment it is not a serious proposal at all, but is a compendium of the objections which are felt by hon. Members to the Alternative Vote, and is put upon the paper as a very interesting specimen. I doubt whether our Parliamentary proceedings will disclose a more interesting specimen of a mathematical abortion directed to a public purpose which it obviously fails to achieve. On the face of it it is not an alternative to the Government's proposal. It sets up a scheme which has no practical working basis at all and has no serious purpose.
    In my opinion the Alternative Vote proposed in the Bill meets the necessities of the situation. In recent contests, over a period of years, we have seen how numbers of votes have been wasted, and the Government's proposal is made to ensure that votes given to third candidates are not wasted but distributed among the other candidates according as the voter prefers. That seems to me a perfectly reasonable proposal. This Amendment would require the returning officer to reach a kind of equation between the total votes cast and the number of candidates. I do not accept that proposal seriously, and I shall vote for the plan proposed by the Government, because it does provide a means of ensuring that we shall not go on wasting
    1044
    votes, and that the person elected is the representative of the largest number of voters who are taking part in the contest. At present, by freaks, by sheer accidents, we may find a candidate elected who does not represent any considerable portion of the electorate, and if by the Alternative Vote, which will allow second preferences to be distributed among the candidates, we increase the chance of securing the election of the candidate who receives most votes, I am satisfied that the proposal is the best we can reach in the circumstances.
    Sir MARTIN CONWAY: I am in favour of almost any system of election which anybody likes to propose provided only that it is complicated enough. I listened to the explanation of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), and I was delightfully puzzled by his description of second preferences and one thing and another, and how by voting for one person you might put the other party in a majority, and so on. I got completely mixed up, and I think this Amendment is a very good one for the reason that it is more complicated than the Government's proposal. I should like still better to see Proportional Representation, because the complication would be more complete. The fact of the matter is, the correct thing to do is to have that kind of voting paper which stupid people will spoil, because in that way you will disfranchise the stupid part of the population. The more difficult you make it to fill up a voting paper correctly the greater will be the influence on the election of the wiser part of the population. I myself am elected by some kind of complicated system called Proportional Representation. It is so far excellent that though I was somewhere near the bottom of the poll on the first count I came out top on the second count—a very good system of election. I think I am right in saying—I am approximately right—that at the last election, or it may have been the one before, the number of spoiled papers contributed by the graduates of the University of Oxford was out of all proportion to the number in any other part of the country.
    At one time I was a student of mathematics, but that is so long ago that I have forgotten all about the subject. When I was listening to the speech of my right hon. Friend I wished that I had retained

    1045
    some fraction of my mathematical attitude of mind; but what I bank on is the firm belief that the more complicated you can make a voting paper the better the result you arrive at, and if you could make it so complicated that all the stupid people would go wrong, you would get a franchise system that would be really excellent. For these reasons I believe I am going to support this Amendment, though I would like the proposal in it to be carried somewhat further.
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: I feel it would be wrong for us to go to a Division without some further consideration of this complicated subject. The hon. and always learned Gentleman sitting below the Gangway opposite said the main object of this Clause was to see that the votes given to the person with the lowest number of votes were not wasted, in other words, whatever else is done we are to see that his supporters get a whack in at choosing the Member of Parliament—HON. MEMBERS: "What is a whack?"] If hon. Members do not know that, I will put it in another way. He is to have matters adjusted so that his supporters have more weight in choosing the Member than any of the voters who vote for the more popular candidate. Obviously, that is giving the voters for the candidate whose supporters are very few at least two votes to one which is allowed to voters for the more popular candidate.
    I agree with the hon. Member for the English Universities (Sir M. Conway) that the Amendment is very complicated, but it is just as likely as this Clause to produce a good election system. My great trouble is that I do not know which way to vote on this particular occasion, because it is obvious that this part of the scheme is only devised with the idea of encouraging more gambling in the
    election. We would like the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) to explain which system he will vote for, because we do not know where he is. We know that he will make his usual speech, in which he will explain one side, and then destroy that side, and then put his own case and then vote against his own case. That is the course he has always followed in this House after he has put his own case.
    The CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman will be stating his case on the next Amendment.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: This Amendment is different from the next Amendment, or I gather we should not be discussing it.
    The CHAIRMAN: That is why I rose. It is not necessary for the hon. Member to waste the time of the Committee by referring to the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment or asking him to explain his attitude to this Amendment as against his own Amendment.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I am sorry if I referred to the other Amendment. I only did so by way of passing on. All the arguments from the Government on this particular Amendment show that it is infinitely preferable to the Bill as it now stands, and although I thoroughly dislike any form of Proportional Representation I would rather vote for the Amendment than for the Bill. The whole effect of this reorganisation will be to complicate a quite simple system, and, as I hold, an almost perfect system, and I should like to see the whole of the Schedule turned down.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 242; Noes, 158.

    Division No. 241.]

    AYES.

    [5.45 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife. West)

    Batey, Joseph

    Cameron, A. G.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Cape, Thomas

    Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

    Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Bennett. William (Batteries, South)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Benson, G.

    Chater, Daniel

    Ammon, Charles George

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Cluse, W. S.

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Bowen, J. W.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Arnott, John

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Bromfield, William

    Compton, Joseph

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Brothers, M.

    Cove, William G.

    Ayles, Walter

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Cowan, D. M.

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Burgess, F. G.

    Daggar, George

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Dallas, George

    Barr, James

    Caine, Hall-, Derwent

    Dalton, Hugh

    Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

    Lang, Gordon

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Ritson, J.

    Dudgeon, Major C. R.

    Lawson, John James

    Romeril, H. G.

    Dukes, C.

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Duncan, Charles

    Leach, W.

    Rowson, Guy

    Ede, James Chuter

    Lee, Frank (Darby, N. E.)

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Lees, J.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Longden, F.

    Sandham, E.

    England, Colonel A.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Foot, Isaac

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Freeman, Peter

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Sexton, Sir James

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    McElwee, A.

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Shield, George William

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley)

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Shinwell, E.

    Gillett, George M.

    McShane, John James

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Glassey, A. E.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Simmons, C. J.

    Gossling, A. G.

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington)

    Gould, F.

    Manning, E. L.

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Mansfield, W.

    Sinkinson, George

    Granville, E.

    March, S.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

    Marcus, M.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Markham, S. F.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Marley, J.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Marshall, Fred

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Mathers, George

    Sorensen, R.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Matters, L. W.

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Millar, J. D.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Mills, J. E.

    Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Milner, Major J.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Montague. Frederick

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Tillett, Ben

    Hardie, George D.

    Morley, Ralph

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Harris, Percy A.

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Toole, Joseph

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Viant, S. P.

    Haycock, A. W.

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Walker, J.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Mort, D. L.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Muff, G.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Herriotts, J.

    Murnin, Hugh

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Hirst, G. H. (York, W. R., Wentworth)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    West, F. R.

    Hollins, A.

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Westwood, Joseph

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

    White, H. G.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Palin, John Henry

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Hutchison, Maj Gen. Sir R.

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Isaacs, George

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Perry, S. F.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Jones, Llewellyn-, F.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Wilson C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Phillips, Dr. Marion

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Jones. Rt. Hon Leif (Camborne)

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Potts, John S.

    Wise, E. F.

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Price, M. P.

    Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Knight, Holford

    Raynes, W. R.

    Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Thurtle.

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

    Richards, R.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Albery, Irving James

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Allan, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.)

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Bracken, B.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Christie, J. A.

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Broadbent, Colonel J.

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Bellairs, Commander canyon

    Buchan, John

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Berry, Sir George

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Butler, R. A.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Campbell, E. T.

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    1048

    1049

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Inksip, Sir Thomas

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Dairymple-White, Lt. Col. Sir Godfrey

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hartford)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittoms

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Simms, Major-General J.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Llewellin, Major J. J.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.)

    Lymington, Viscount

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland)

    Falle, Sir Sertram G.

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Meller, R. J.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Thomson, Sir F.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Todd. Capt. A. J.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    O'Neill, Sir H.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Peake, Captain Osbert

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Remer, John R.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Captain Margesson and Sir George

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Ross, Ronald D.

    Penny.

    The CHAIRMAN: The next Amendment which I select is the one standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) and other hon. Members, and on this Amendment may be discussed also the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. C. Wilson).
    Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to move in page 6, line 13, at the end, to insert the words:
    "and in cases where there are more than three candidates, may similarly indicate his subsequent preferences by the figures 3 or 4 and so on opposite the names of further candidates."
    In moving this Amendment, I am glad to find that some hon. Members above the Gangway have appended their names to it, and I trust that I shall have their valuable support. This Amendment deals with merely a matter of machinery, and I hope the Government will not hesitate to accept it. My Amendment deals only with the case where there are more than three candidates at an election. There were 22 such cases at the last General Election, but with the advent on the political scene of a certain number of
    1050
    new parties, or sections of parties, there may be a larger number of four-cornered or five-cornered elections in future years. There are two possible methods of dealing with an election where there are, say, four candidates. One is the proposal in the Bill, and the other is the proposal contained in the Amendment. The proposal of the Bill is that each elector shall be able to vote 1 for the candidate he most approves and give next a second preference to the candidate he wishes to see elected, but he cannot go on. He can vote 1 or 2 but he cannot vote 3, and if there are five candidates he cannot vote 4. He can give a first and a second preference, but no more. The proposal in the Amendment is that he should be allowed to go on, and not only vote for the first candidate, or the second candidate he wishes to be elected, but if the second candidate he has voted for is not amongst the first two who are left in the poll, he can express a third preference. The only advantage of the Government plan is that it possesses greater simplicity, but the voter who can count up to two, is only required to count up to three or to four. Therefore, it is a very small measure of complication that will be introduced

    1051
    by the Amendment which I am moving.
    The hon. Member for English Universities (Sir M. Conway), who spoke on a previous Amendment, made the plea that the ballot papers should be made as complicated as possible in order that the voting paper might be made an intellectual test. That is a most ingenious suggestion, but I do not think it is one that will appeal to the Committee, and the small measure of complication which my Amendment proposes will not meet the requirements of that scheme. The disadvantage of the Government plan is that where there are four candidates you will find that the real purpose of the Alternative Vote will not be fulfilled. The purpose of the Alternative Vote is to approximate, as nearly as possible, to getting an absolute majority for one of the candidates. The Alternative Vote is intended to ensure that the man who is elected and comes to Westminster shall have behind him the support of a majority of his constituency either expressed by the first preferences or the second preferences. That object will not be fully attained by the Bill as it stands. To secure that object it is necessary to give to each voter the right in the final count of casting his vote as between the two candidates who are left in the list.
    I will give an illustration of how the Bill would work as it stands. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seven-oaks (Sir H. Young) brought in cases A, B and C, but I will take the names of actual parties at an actual election in the constituency in which I happen to live, namely, South Paddington, where there was a famous by-election a few months ago. At that election there were four candidates, and as not one was a Liberal, I give the illustration without any suspicion of bias. I will not take the actual votes, but, for the 6.0 p.m. sake of simplicity, will take imaginary figures. Assume that there are at an election four candidates, and that, as in the case of South Paddington, three of them belong substantially to one school of thought. There was an official Conservative, there was what was called an Empire Crusader, and there was a United Empire candidate, who were all Conservatives, and there was also a Labour candidate. In
    1052
    that constituency there was very obviously a majority of the Conservative party, if it were united, over the Labour party, and, therefore, according to any sound principle of election, a Conservative of one school or another ought to be sent to Parliament to represent that constituency. The particular figures that I will take I have chosen for the purpose of simplifying the illustration.
    Assume that the Conservative voters numbered 12,000, and the Labour voters 11,000. Then, the Conservatives being divided into three, I will assume that the official Conservative received 7,000 votes, the Empire Crusader 3,000, and the United Empire candidate 2,000. That is on the first count. I will assume, also, that all the United Empire voters would wish to see the Crusader elected if they could not get their own representative in, and that, therefore, their 2,000 votes would be transferred on the second count to the Empire Crusader. That, on the second count, would give 11,000 votes for the Labour candidate, 7,000 for the official Conservative, and 5,000 for the Empire Crusader.
    Now comes the point at which our scheme and the scheme of the Government diverge. Under the scheme of the Amendment, all of the 5,000 votes for the Empire Crusader shown on the second count would be transferred to the official Conservative, and, therefore, in the final count, the official Conservative would get 12,000 votes, and the Labour candidate would get 11,000, which would be electorally equitable, however distasteful it might be politically. If, however, the 2,000 who had voted in the first instance for the United Empire candidate were only allowed one other preference, and if they gave their first preference to the United Empire candidate and their second to the Empire Crusader, they would have shot their bolt, and, in the final count, where the issue would be between the Labour candidate and the official Conservative, their votes would disappear. [Interruption.] That might be desirable, but it is not the purpose of the Alternative Vote, and it is not the purpose of any sound or just electoral system that such votes should disappear, because in that case the final result would be that the Labour candidate would get 11,000 votes and the official Conservative 10,000, so that, owing to an obvious imperfection

    1053
    of the electoral system, the clear intention of the constituency would be defeated, and the 12,000 Conservatives would have been deprived of a seat which would properly belong to them.
    Even worse might happen if a Liberal seat were in question! But whatever the grouping may be for the purpose of any abstract illustration, it obviously is wrong that any class of electors should in the last resort be treated unequally in this way, and that, while the 3,000 who had voted for the Empire Crusader should have their votes counted in the final poll, the 2,000 who had voted for the United Empire candidate should not. Whether the number be 2,000 of 20, if the principle is wrong it ought to be altered, and for that reason we move this Amendment. I am quite sure that, if the Bill is passed as it stands, it will be found, when it comes into actual operation, that in many of these constituencies in which there are four or five candidates large numbers of electors will find that what I have just described will take place, and that, if they are allowed only first and second preferences, they will be allowed no votes at all in the final issue between the two candidates at the head of the poll in the last count.
    When this matter was before the House on the Representation of the People Bill in 1918, the House of Commons passed the Alternative Vote on more than one occasion, and embodied it in the Bill, but it was struck out by the House of Lords. The machinery, however, that was adopted by the Government of that day for putting the Alternative Vote into operation was what we are now proposing, and not what is proposed in the present Bill. I have here the White Paper that was presented to Parliament at that time by the Government of the day, and there it was laid down that, where there were more than two candidates at an election, the voter at any such election might place the figure "1" on his ballot paper opposite the name of the candidate who was his first choice, instead of the cross prescribed by the Ballot Act, 1872, and any vote given by placing the said figure or cross opposite the name of a candidate was in those rules referred to as a first preference vote. It was also laid down that, in addition to the figure "1" authorised by the rules, or the cross, placed on the
    1054
    ballot paper, the figures "2," "3" and so on might be added by the voter in the order of his preferences opposite the names of the candidates whom he would prefer if the candidate of his first choice could not be elected, and any votes so given were in those rules referred to as alternative votes. I suggest to the Government that they should modify their procedure in this particular, and follow the precedent that was set by their predecessors in 1918. As to the actual drafting of our Amendment, we do not, of course, attach much importance to it, and, if the Government can improve upon the wording, we shall be very pleased. As the Committee has now decided in favour of the principle of the Alternative Vote on an earlier Clause, I trust that Members in all quarters of the Committee will agree in endeavouring to make the method of its application as perfect as may be.
    Captain BOURNE: I find myself, perhaps for the first time during the progress of this Bill through Committee, in agreement, at least at this stage, with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). The object of his Amendment is to make it possible, in cases where there are more than three candidates, for voters to express a third preference, or, where there are many candidates, as many preferences as there are candidates. I think it is obvious, to anyone who considers the case of an election in which there are more than three candidates, that something will have to be devised to enable more than two preferences to be ascertained, if any system of Alternative Vote is to work out at all, or, at any rate, to work out justly. It is true that the Home Secretary, on the Second Reading, used these words:
    "I intend to say only a little on the method by which this alternative voting system will be applied, and to say even less at this stage on the machinery that will govern that method. We had the opportunity to choose between one system or the other. Indeed, there are many systems, but, as hon. Members know, in the main our contests are fought with but three candidates representing the three parties, and this Bill is designed, not with a view to covering the rare and exceptional case, but to cover, in the main, the general conditions in which our Parliamentary elections are fought. We, therefore, decided in favour of limiting an elector's choice to two candidates. That does him no wrong, for it gives him an Alternative Vote, but not

    1055
    Alternative Votes for several candidates who may be standing in any exceptional contest. There are in the main, as I say, only three parties, as far as they are parties which can at any time in the immediate, or even remote future, hope to form a Government. The Government are, of course, aware that there are other methods of giving effect to the system of the Alternative Vote. We have decided that the method proposed in the Bill is fair and reasonable to the electors, that it is the simplest, the best and the easiest to work, and, therefore, on all grounds, compared with others, I hope that it will commend itself to the favour of the present House of Commons."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1931; col. 1472, Vol. 247.]
    That, I understand, is the basis and the defence of the system which the Government have put forward in this Bill. But, since the right hon. Gentleman made his speech, we have been threatened with the existence of a fourth party, which professedly intends to run a large number of candidates. I have no means of knowing whether its professions are accurate or otherwise, but he would be a very bold man who would prophesy to-day that there may not be, if not in the immediate, at any rate in the remote, future, other parties that may be capable of forming a Government. As was said by one of my hon. Friends, speaking on the last Amendment, it is not so many years ago since hon. Members who now sit on the Government Benches were a very small party, and a party which, in those days, few people would have prophesied would ever form a Government; and if in those days, not so very long before the War, this system which the Home Secretary now suggests had been adopted, hon. Members opposite would probably never have risen to be anything like so large a party as they are to-day. What the Home Secretary is attempting to do by this Bill is to stereotype the three existing political parties. So far from showing any signs of being progressive in thought, or desirous of encouraging new political developments and qualities, of recognising that in the life of this country we must be prepared to meet with new movements and to give them at least a fair opportunity, the right hon. Gentleman, with a reactionary Toryism surpassing anything to be found on these benches, is trying to stereotype for ever the existing system.
    1056
    I would ask the Committee to consider a case where there are four candidates, and where, as is very possible, one of the existing parties is even running two candidates. There were occasions of that kind just after the Coalition, and there may very easily be cases in the party of hon. Members opposite, where the Independent Labour party and the official Labour party do not see eye to eye about contesting some particular seat, and where, therefore, in contesting a particular seat, or perhaps several seats, Members of that party may be fighting one against another. It is quite conceivable that the party which is running two candidates may be actually the largest in voting strength of any of the parties in the country, but that, owing to the division, its two candidates may be at the bottom of the poll. I would venture to suggest to the Committee that in such a case the presumption is that people will give their second vote for their own party—that the people who vote, say, Independent Conservative or Independent Labour will not unnaturally give their second preference to their respective official candidates in the vast majority of cases; and I think we may equally assume that the people who give their votes to the official candidate will very naturally give their second preference to the unofficial candidate, because, on the whole, he comes nearest to representing their point of view of any of the candidates standing at the election.
    Consider now what happens under the Government scheme. The elector is given one second preference, and one only. I will assume—and it is a very likely assumption—that, in the case of the party which has two candidates, those two candidates, thanks to the split, come out at the bottom of the poll. Assume that an independent candidate comes out at the bottom. Then, when his second preferences are counted, they would go to the official candidate. These second preferences may not be enough to take him to the top, and perhaps not even enough to shift him from the third place to the second, but, as his second preferences go to a candidate who has already been excluded, the result will lie between the two candidates who originally came at the top of the poll, and the other candidates will have completely

    1057
    lost any chance of being returned. It seems to me that that is one possible result of the Government's proposals, and that, in order to elect a candidate who is fairly representative of the majority in a given constituency, you must allow voters to indicate more than two preferences in cases where there are more than three candidates.
    It is difficult for anyone to say accurately how these further preferences will be given, and I admit that there is the difficulty, which I think is a serious one, that as the number of preferences is increased the tendency of voters will be more and more to give their later preferences carelessly among the candidates. Nevertheless, I think they ought to have that choice. Wherever the Alternative Vote has been tried, and it has been tried to a considerable extent in Australia and parts of Canada, more than two preferences have been allowed, and it seems to me that when we, at this late stage in our electoral history, are following up those experiments, we should at least be wise to follow the example of those who have more years of experience than we have, and to adopt at least as many preferences as there are candidates. Therefore, I support the Amendment.
    Mr. CECIL WILSON: On the Second Reading I expressed the view that Proportional Representation was very much more desirable than the Alternative Vote, but the House has decided that question and it, therefore, seems very desirable that any rules that we adopt in connection with it should be in conformity with those that are in general use in the English-speaking world, and wherever any form of transferable or Alternative Vote has been adopted, the electors are instructed to indicate their various preferences without any limit whatever. That does not only apply in the matter of political elections. I have here a number of ballot papers, including an election for the divisional council of the Independent Labour party, an election for the National Union of Rail-waymen where there were 12 candidates, and elections for the University of Cambridge and Queen's University, Belfast, and in every case the instruction is given to the voters that they could mark their papers with their various preferences
    1058
    going up as high as they desired to do. The system in Winnipeg is somewhat different, but I have here a voting paper containing 23 names in which they are also permitted to vote for the whole 23 if they so desire.
    On a previous Amendment the hon. Member for the English Universities (Sir M. Conway) referred to the extreme confusion that there has been in the case of Oxford University. It is rather unfortunate that he made that reference, because the Chancellor of Cambridge, referring to an election in which 10,000 voters took part, said the number of spoilt papers due to wrong preferences was negligible. In the case of a recent election for the National Union of Rail-waymen, where 76,000 voters took part, the number of spoilt papers was only one per thousand. That is very creditable to the National Union of Railway-men when compared with Oxford University. These rules ought to be dealt with in such a way as to be in general agreement with the practice of other countries.
    Lord ERSKINE: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) will not take it amiss when I say I am not altogether happy at having my name attached to his Amendment, because I, in common with, a very large number of Members opposite, dislike the whole principle of the Alternative Vote, and both they and I have been driven for the time being into accepting a position in which the smallest party in the House is driving the great majority of the House into adopting an electoral system in which neither of them believes. Nevertheless, as the House has adopted the principle of the Alternative Vote, it is right that we on this side should do what we can to improve the Bill. I am sure the Government scheme as now put forward is a bad one. It has been criticised on all sides of the House. If there are more than three candidates, the voter should be able to have more than two choices. It is true the Government may say, as indeed they said on the last Amendment, that their scheme is the simplest. That is true. Nevertheless, it has been proved, even in so far as the Debate on this Amendment has gone, that, if there are more than three candidates, you may get a perfectly ludicrous result, and

    1059
    for that reason I am inclined to back up the Amendment. I think the argument put forward by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) showed that, where there are four candidates, the Government scheme goes wrong. I should like to reinforce what my hon. and gallant Friend said, that if the Government do not accept the Amendment, they are really stereotyping the position of parties. I do not think any of us would say that the position of parties at present is permanent. All parties change. Within the last 50 years we have seen very great changes, and I have no doubt that in another 50 years we may see an equally great change.
    I do not think that it is right for any House of Commons to lay down an electoral law which will undoubtedly have the effect of making it far more difficult for any new party to start. We who belong to the old parties may, no doubt, have a vested interest in them. We all do, on whatever side we may sit. After all, parties may disappear. We are seeing before our eyes the disappearance of one of the old parties in the State, and we may very shortly see the emergence of a new party. We have no right to put into the Bill a system of voting whereby the older parties can maintain their vested interests. We have to make provision for anyone who has a new political idea and I do not think, if you adopt the scheme of the Bill, you have made that provision. I should like to ask the Government, if their scheme remains as it is and various voters, under the impression that they have more votes than two, put down 3 and 4 on their ballot paper, does that invalidate the whole ballot paper or not? We have not really had very much explanation from the Front Bench so far as to what will be a spoilt paper under the alternative scheme and what will not. On the last occasion when the Bill was down, we had a rather rambling discussion and the Government said they would think about it between now and Report. I wonder if the Home Secretary could tell me straight off under existing conditions whether, if people put more than two votes on their paper, the paper will be invalidated or not. I believe the Amendment will put before the country a better
    1060
    form of the Alternative Vote than is in the Bill, and those of us who vote for it will, therefore be voting to improve the Bill. That does not in any way say we are voting in favour of the principle of the Alternative Vote, which most of us dislike, and which a large number of Members opposite dislike equally, and if we vote for the Amendment we are merely doing so in order to make a ludicrous Bill slightly better.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Clynes): The first thing I should like to say in relation to this Amendment is that we are not seeking to drive the electors to do anything. The Noble Lord talked as though we were proposing to dragoon some millions of people, and to require them under this system to do something which at present they do not do. The Bill imposes no state of force on anyone. It does not compel the elector to vote for two candidates if he does not wish to do so. It imposes no change whatever. It enlarges the freedom of the elector if he feels he would like to exercise a wider choice than is possible under the existing law. If I am to answer the Noble Lord's definite question as to what would be the positon under our present system, I can only say I believe, if the Bill were passed in its present form, and an elector marked his paper not merely 1 and 2, but 3, 4, 5 and so on, probably marking it in that manner would destroy his vote. That fact is an argument in favour of the Amendment. It is an argument in support of the support given by the Noble Lord to the Amendment. I have listened with sympathy and interest to the arguments generally in favour of the Amendment, mainly for the reason that a new party has been born since this Bill was framed. There are indications that even additions to the political organisations of the country may be made before very long.
    The difference between the Amendment and the Bill is not a difference of principle—of kind. It is a difference in degree. I argued on the occasion of the Second Reading that our main object, in the proposals as we submitted them, was to secure the greatest measure of simplicity and if, as they have put the case, with this Amendment we can have what is proposed in the Bill together with what is demanded, I see no objection to

    1061
    accepting the Amendment. Our purpose is achieved and, if a wider choice is wanted, it is conceded by the acceptance of the Amendment. The effect of the Amendment can only be on a comparatively small number of electors and in a small number of constituencies, so that in the main the terms of the Bill as they now appear would achieve the object of the Alternative Vote system in the vast majority of cases. As an indication that we are not obdurate and not tyrants, I listened to the views which have come from all parties, and, subject to any review of the matter on the mere wording of the Amendment—I am not quarrelling with the wording, for it seems to me that on the face of it the terms are acceptable enough, though for reasons of safety they should be subject to reconsideration in relation to the Report stage—I am able, on behalf of the Government, to accept the Amendment.
    Sir SAMUEL HOARE: I have listened with interest to the speech of the Home Secretary. Once again we have noticed the fact that the Government have been ready, or have been compelled, to make drastic alterations in the Clauses of the Bill, and I conjecture that by the end of the Committee discussion, certainly by the end of the Third Reading discussion, there will scarcely be a single proposal left in the Bill which has not been altered or which has not been riddled with criticisms during discussion on the Committee stage. On the whole, I think that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) is a slight improvement of a very bad Bill. Earlier in the afternoon we heard the existing proposals of the Government riddled with criticism from one end to the other, and even with this Amendment every kind of anomaly and grievance still remains. It is as I have said, a slight mitigation, but all the very serious objections raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young) earlier in the afternoon still remain unremedied, and it will be as possible, when this Amendment is accepted, for the wish of the electors to be flouted and for one of the worst candidates of the three or four who are before the electorate to be elected.
    One of the incidental results of this Amendment is to put the result of an election even more into the hands of a
    1062
    very small number of voters than was the case before. By allowing a voter to vote for the third, fourth and fifth candidates, it will probably mean that a very small percentage of the voters will give those numerous preferences. Even in Australia to-day only 50 or 60 per cent. give a first preference, and I am sure that when it comes to giving second, third, fourth and fifth preferences, very few voters will give those preferences at all. The result, therefore, will confirm what hon. Members on this side of the Committee have frequently stated in the past, namely, that a few irresponsible votes given as the third, fourth, and, it may be, the fifth choice will eventually control the result of an election. That, again, shows how totally indefensible is the whole proposal of the Alternative Vote. The fact that the Home Secretary has had to accept the Amendment makes the original proposals less absurd, but they are still absurd, and will lead to every kind of anomaly and foolish result in actual practice. Having said that, I have no further comment to make upon the action of the Home Secretary. If we have to vote upon the Amendment, I think that probably I should have to vote with the right hon. Member for Darwen who moved it, not because it makes the Bill materially better, but because it makes it a little less foolish than it was before.
    Mr. W. S. MORRISON: There is one point which arises from the acceptance of this Amendment to which I would invite the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary. I cherish a suspicion that after we have altered the voting system in this country by giving a man second, third or fourth preferences, it may lead to confusion in the mind of the elector, who may have an idea that he has two, three or four votes. I feel that, in spite of anything we may do in this House to alter the system of voting, we shall find at the first election held under this system a preference on the part of the electors as a whole to vote in favour of the candidate they most desire to see elected. If we are to have this confusion between preferences and absolute votes, I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, in view of his acceptance of the Amendment, it might be advisable to make it clear that a man, in the case where there are six

    1063
    candidates, who writes the figure "6" opposite, say, the Labour candidate, or whoever is his choice, should not be disqualified from having his vote recorded. It would merely mean an excess of zeal. The man who would fall into that error is precisely the sort of man who has no hesitation as to his duty at an election, and he is much more likely to be a citizen with strong political beliefs than the man who would otherwise distribute his preferences amongst six candidates. I ask the Government whether they cannot find it possible at a later stage to introduce a provision making it clear that if a man put the figure 2 opposite the candidate of his choice, his paper should not be regarded as a spoilt paper, and similarly if he put 3, 4, 5 or 6 opposite the candidate of his choice, it should not be counted against him as an act of unrighteousness in recording his vote, but rather be regarded as an excess of zeal, and his vote should be allowed to count.
    Sir DONALD MACLEAN: I should like to acknowledge, on behalf of any right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), and those of us who have put our names down to this Amendment, the reasonableness which the Home Secretary has shown, not only to us but to the whole of the Committee. Somebody has said that when certain parties agree, their unanimity is wonderful. We have had an example of that this afternoon. I was not ungrateful for the kindly, if somewhat glib, patronage extended to the Liberal party by the Noble Lord the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Lord Erskine), He was good enough to observe that he saw a party fast disappearing before his eyes. This Amendment, I daresay, will enable him at the next election to observe more clearly the effect of what happened at the last election. Electors to the number of 3,250,000 voted for the Liberal party in 1924, hut they extended support to the Liberal party to the tune of 5,250,000 at the last election. No doubt the Noble Lord will be enabled to see a little more clearly the strength of a party which has a long history and a great and a noble future.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I think the Committee are in a position to understand what really is the position. The Committee are unanimously of the opinion that the Amendment is rather better than the
    1064
    original proposal. Any committee can be unanimous provided it is in regard to a matter in which no principle is involved. There is absolutely no principle involved in the Liberal Amendment. The position is gloriously simple. Originally the Government drafted the Clause; it had no principle in it. It was a question of putting down something. Then they waited for criticism. They know the back benchers on this side and the back benchers on the side opposite thoroughly dislike this principle because it simply gives unlimited power to endless oddities such as we sec scattered about. They may call themselves "I.L.P." or this or that branch, or the third, fourth or fifth branch of the Liberal party or whatever they like, but, at any rate, it does give a chance to the "odds and ends."
    And now we have the position that the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) comes down with his Amendment and says that his object is to secure an absolute majority, first by means of a preference. It does not appear to matter what happens as long as you secure this curious thing called an "absolute majority." The real position is that there is not an absolute majority in any sense of the word. The people who believe in principles will vote for this candidate or the other candidate, either for the Tory candidate or for the Socialist candidate. They are the people who do not very much care who votes for the various "odds and ends," but the people who vote for the "odds and ends" will not want, in any circumstances, to put in a man of principle. It is really not treating the electorate as they ought to be treated on these occasions. Are we not rather assuming that we have by this Amendment, or by the original scheme, to build up some system which takes into account all these various small positions? I would rather see a scheme which deliberately encouraged fixed principles.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen is very fortunate. He moved his Amendment in a few words, and curiously enough—I have never known it happen before—he kept precisely on the same lines from the beginning to end of his speech. There was one curious sentence in his speech. He said that, of course, the drafting part could be altered. That gives him a continuous

    1065
    loophole, and we may have further drafting. As a result of that, he might change the position right round. The Government ought to be very careful about the Amendment unless they are certain where they stand. You may even see the right hon. Member for Darwen voting against his own Amendment. He carried the position so easily and simply that it looks as if one of two things must have happened. Either he really did convince the Government on the spot or something had been going on beforehand. The Committee is entitled to know whether the Amendment had been agreed to outside, at Downing Street or some other place, before we came to the House. I cannot see how that information can be denied to us.
    One hon. Member said that he hoped that if a voter, through exuberance, thought that one candidate was very good and all the others were useless, and he put down 5 or 6 to the name of that candidate, he should not be disqualified. I had hoped that the Government would give a reply on that important matter, because it seems to me rather hard that a man should be disqualified because he wanted to show that he does not think anything of the other candidates, the first, second, third or fourth, but that he wanted his candidate to come in about the sixth. I do not think that man should be entirely disqualified from exercising any influence upon the election. Another hon. Member said that we ought to make it very clear to the electors that they are not to have plural voting under this system, because they would have a number of choices. It ought to be explained that they will not be voting for four or five different people. That has not been made clear.
    I am not quite certain that under this system a person will not get three or four votes. On the first count, your vote scores if you vote for someone who is just below the bare majority. The elector who votes for the candidate who is at the top of the poll does not get another vote, but the person who votes for a candidate who is at the bottom may exercise a vote perhaps three or four times. He scores from every part of the target, although he does not get a bull's-eye in the first instance. The voter who votes for a candidate who nearly gets in really has a
    1066
    bull's-eye, and then he gets an inner, an outer and a magpie. I am rather shocked that the Home Secretary has not given a proper explanation of this matter. The right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir D. Maclean) said that a very large number of Liberals voted at the last election. I will not follow up that argument, except to say that a large number of Liberals have not had candidates at the by-elections, and where they had candidates they generally did pretty badly.
    On the whole, the Amendment is less bad than the original words in the Bill. I do not like the Amendment, but as I cannot find anyone who is likely to vote against it, and as it will not make the Bill any worse, I shall not oppose it. It will still leave the position that we are doing nothing to improve the electoral conditions. The Bill is against the best interests of getting elections simple and easy. It will not do one thing that is absolutely essential; it will not make the connection between the elector and the House of Commons more close. I know who are my supporters, and hon. Members opposite know who are their supporters in their constituencies. When we are elected we represent, more or less, the whole of the electors. Under the proposed new system, a person may say: "I voted No. 3 preference for you, and it is possible that my vote was counted and helped to put you in." We shall look upon that person in a somewhat different light from that in which we view our supporters to-day.
    I would not like a sort of C3 supporter, and I am certain that the electors will not like this system. It seems to be introducing a sort of a betting system. I do not understand betting but I have friends below the Gangway and on the Front Bench who do, and I am assured that the ordinary man likes to put his money on a horse, and to win or lose. There are some people who like to have reserves. It is not right to encourage this widespread form of gambling in elections. It means that instead of having a proper electoral system we are encouraging one of the worst forms of gambling by giving the people a great variety of choices. I suppose we have to accept the Amendment, although I believe that it will add to the complications of the system.

    1067
    I should like to know from the Home Secretary or the Solicitor-General their grounds for supposing from any example in any other country that this Amendment is likely to be more efficient than the Bill in its original form. If they have evidence to that effect, why did they not give it to the House earlier, or make the necessary provision in the Bill? That would have saved a good deal of time. By not having done that, and by coming to the House of Commons this afternoon and accepting this Amendment without giving any real reason for it, they have treated the Committee in a very bad way. I hope that they will consider the question very carefully, and when it comes forward for further consideration on the Report stage, they may have to deal with it in a different way.
    Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I listened with much interest to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. Williams), but I could not tell whether he desires the Amendment to be accepted or whether he would sooner see it omitted. I do not wish to take up an attitude of absolute isolation, but I confess that I do not like the Amendment. Instead of improving the Bill it seems to me that it will make it worse. The principle of our electoral system hitherto has been that the candidate returned for a constituency was the one who managed to secure the largest measure of support. The principle of the Bill was that where there are more than two candidates and none of them obtains an absolute majority, the supporters of the candidate who has received the least measure of support shall have another chance of deciding who is to be the Member for the constituency. It is now proposed to carry that system on to an endless number of candidates.
    It is a proviso for the promotion of freak candidatures. That will be the first and obvious consequence of it. It will encourage every little group by way of advertising itself, by way of putting pressure on those parties which are brought together on larger issues of national policy, whether on the one side or on the other, to adopt the particular fads of these little groups, to start candidatures with a view to collecting a sufficient number of voters to make their second preferences valuable. So you go
    1068
    on through these series of candidates, not to find out whom any body of the electors want to be elected but by the process of elimination to discover which of the candidates is least objected to. That is not the way to recruit the best men for this House or to secure the best electoral system, and, for my part, I register my protest against the acceptance of the Amendment, in speech, even though I may not have an opportunity of registering my protest in the Division Lobby.
    7.0 p.m.
    Sir BASIL PETO: The original object was to give to every elector two votes where there were three candidates, to enable the voter to select which candidate he desires should be elected and which of the other two he disliked the least. The proposal now before the Committee is that we should carry that principle on where there are more candidates, so that 1, 2, 3 or 4 could be indicated, and we are told by the Government that they think the Amendment is an improvement. It is suggested that the person who votes for No. 4, a particular candidate, is to be placed in such a position that in certain circumstances his vote may decide the election. It is not a question of indicating a preference for the candidate the elector likes the best but it is giving an opportunity to the elector of showing which candidate he detests the most. To that one he will not give a vote, but he will be able, to show which one he dislikes slightly less than the one to whom he will not give a vote. That vote may possibly decide the election. It is not an indication in the slightest degree of the preference of the voter but merely an indication which of several people whom he dislikes intensely and does not want to see elected to the House of Commons, he dislikes rather less than the absolute last. Such an Amendment, far from being an improvement, is carrying an absurd principle to the limits of absurdity. We know where we are under the present system, which is 7.0 p.m. a perfectly plain and simple system, under which no one has a vote for anybody except the man he wants to see elected. Now, what is to decide the election is not the vote for the man the voter wants to see elected, but the vote for the one of four or five candidates he dislikes least. That is a different principle from what we have

    1069
    hitherto had, and is so utterly foreign to what the electors understand, that it is not only an absurdity but it is positively wrong to introduce it into our electoral law. Therefore, if there is any opportunity to do so, I shall oppose the Amendment.
    Major HILLS: I feel a difficulty in this matter, although I may be entirely in error. It is very hard to discuss this Amendment without considering also the further Amendment which affects the distribution of the third or fourth preferences. It is simple if you have only a second preference, because then you exclude the last man and distribute his preferences and carry that on until one of the candidates gets an absolute majority. The danger of having third, fourth and fifth preferences is this: These further choices will count equally in the distribution with first choices, with the result that a third, fourth or fifth choice may determine the election of a Member of Parliament. It was made perfectly clear in the examination of the Proportional Representation system made by the Royal Commission that one objection to that system was the great weight given to the low choices, the fifth, sixth, seventh or eighth choice. I do not know how far that applies to the Alternative Vote system, but it seems that the same reasons that were against Proportional Representation because of the great weight given to the late choices would also be valid against the same plan when applied to the Alternative Vote. If that is so, do you not get this? You give undue value to a vote by the voter who has exhausted his power of choice. When a man has voted for one, two or three candidates he has done all he can. He has no subsequent power of selection, and his subsequent choices are determined by name or by pure chance, and you are giving to those subsequent choices a very important weight in determining who shall be Member for the constituency. I dislike the whole of this system. If we are to have the Alternative Vote, I prefer it in the broad form proposed by the Government to the form proposed by the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). He has not explained the way in which he will distribute his later choices. I take it that the essence of his system is that those choices have the same value
    1070
    as first choices. That is wrong, because the more choices you give to a voter, the worse the system becomes, and the less justification there is for taking late choices as being of the same value as first choices.
    Commander SOUTHBY: I had not intended to take part in this Debate, but I am emboldened to do so because the swift acceptance by the Government of the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) is sufficient justification for some protest from this side. I do not wish to traverse the ground covered by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), who voiced the objections not only to the Alternative Vote but to this system, which only makes confusion worse confounded. The right hon. Member for Darwen is only adding one more patch to the already crazy patchwork quilt of this Bill. If there is to be a Division, I shall register my protest against the Amendment. I object entirely to the system of Alternative Voting. If there is to be foisted on the electorate this system, which they do not want—and back bench Members opposite will agree that their constituents do not desire it—it is better to have the system put down plainly and straightforwardly, as the Government did in the original draft, than to have this mixed grill of candidates and choices put forward by the right hon. Member for Darwen.
    May I point out to the Committee that in racing you have place betting, but even in racing you do not have place betting with a view to having more than three horses named. You might have three candidates and allow the electors to have a second preference, but there is no reason for extending the number of preferences in this way to an unlimited number. As the right hon. Member for West Birmingham said, it is an encouragement to running freak candidates. Although the party below the Gangway are experts at running candidates, even they will not consider it is in their interests to have a number of freak candidates run against them. I will follow my right hon. Friend into the Lobby against an Amendment, which makes confusion worse confounded, and makes a bad Bill worse than it would otherwise be.
    Sir DENNIS HERBERT: May I ask the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) one question? Is it not possible that, if he were one of nine candidates, in the present state of the country the electors might all decide that he should not be the one elected if they could help it, and consequently they would all, or the vast majority, mark the figure nine against his name. If, however, they were so unable to distinguish between the other candidates that their preferences were equally split between them, does it not follow that the right hon. Member would get in although the electors were determined not to have him?
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I have been asked by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) as to
    what precisely I was going to do. A series of speeches has followed mine to back up what I said, and the Committee is rapidly turning towards my way of thinking. As all the sensible people in the Committee support me, I hope I shall get some more converts. The Members opposite would vote with me but the Whips are on. Why not take off the Whips? I shall certainly vote against the Amendment because it is making a not very honourable proceeding rather less nice than it is already. It is quite bad enough already, and I shall certainly go into the Lobby against it.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 250; Noes, 129.

    Division No. 242.]

    AYES.

    [7.12 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Ede, James Chuter

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Alpass, J. H.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Kenworthy, Lt. Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Ammon, Charles George

    England, Colonel A.

    Kinley, J.

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Foot, Isaac

    Kirkwood, D.

    Arnott, John

    Freeman, Peter

    Lambert. Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Gardner, B. W. (West Han, Upton)

    Lang, Gordon

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Ayles, Walter

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Lawson, John James

    Barr, James

    Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley)

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Batey, Joseph

    Gillett, George M.

    Leach, W.

    Bonn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Glassey, A. E.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)

    Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

    Gossling, A. G.

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Gould, F.

    Lees, J.

    Benson, G.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Lindley, Fred W.

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Birkett, W. Norman

    Granville, E.

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Gray, Milner

    Longden, F.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

    Lunn, William

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Bromfield, William

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Bromley, J.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Brothers, M.

    Groves, Thomas E.

    McElwee, A.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Burgess, F. G.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Caine, Hall-, Derwent

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    McShane, John James

    Cameron, A. G.

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Cape, Thomas

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    Haycock, A. W.

    Manning, E. L.

    Chater, Daniel

    Hayday, Arthur

    Mansfield, W.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Hayes, John Henry

    March, S.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Marcus, M.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

    Markham. S. F.

    Compton, Joseph

    Herriotts, J.

    Marley, J.

    Cove, William G.

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Marshall, Fred

    Cowan, D. M.

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Mathers, George

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Matters, L. W.

    Daggar, George

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Messer, Fred

    Dallas, George

    Hollins, A.

    Middleton, G.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Millar, J. D.

    Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Mills, J. E.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Milner, Major J.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Montague, Frederick

    Dudgeon, Major C. R.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Morgan Dr. H. B.

    Dukes, C.

    Jones, Llewellyn-, F.

    Morley, Ralph

    Duncan, Charles

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Rothschild, J. de

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Rowson, Guy

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Mort, P. L.

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Tillett, Ben

    Muff, G.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Toole, Joseph

    Murnin, Hugh

    Sanders, W. S.

    Viant, S. P.

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    Sandham, E.

    Walker, J.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfelk, N.)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Sexton, Sir James

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Palin, John Henry

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

    Palmer, E. T.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    West, F. R.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Shield, George William

    Westwood, Joseph

    Perry, S. F.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    White, H. G.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Phillips, Dr. Marlon

    Shinwell, E.

    Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Wilkinson, Ellen G.

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Potts, John S.

    Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Price, M. P.

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Sinkinson, George

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Rathbone, Eleancr

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Smith, Lees-, Rt. Hon. H. B. (Keighley)

    Wise, E. F.

    Richards, R.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Sorensen, R.

    Ritson, J.

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Romerll, H. G.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Mr. Ben Smith and Mr. Charleton.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Albery, Irving James

    Fermoy, Lord

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

    Fielden, E. B.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Balniel, Lord

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Remer, John R.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Berry, Sir George

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E.

    Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest whittome

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Simms, Major-General J.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast)

    Bracken, B.

    Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Broadbent, Colonel J.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Buchan, John

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Butler, R. A.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland)

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Thompson, Luke

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

    Thomson, Sir F.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Christie, J. A.

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Vaughan-Morgan. Sir Kenyon

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Meller, R. J.

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    O'Neill, Sir H.

    Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Penny, Sir George

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Major Llewellin and Mr. C. Williams.

    Sir S. HOARE: I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to insert the words, "provided that the votes of a candidate who loses his deposit shall not
    1074
    be transferred to any of the other candidates."
    I apologise to the Committee for moving this manuscript Amendment, but

    1075
    hon. Members will agree that I could not have taken any other action in view of the fact that we did not know that the Government were going to accept the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). In the observations I made on that Amendment I emphasised the risk we were running that a few votes low down in the list might affect the result of the election, and I expressed my anxiety as to that Amendment. Then came the speech of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), who drew a very disquieting, but very accurate picture of what might happen in the case of an election where there were several candidates and in which the result depended upon a few fifth or sixth preferences right down in the list, very likely for a freak candidate. The Amendment I now propose is intended to remove some of that danger.
    The House of Commons has by its action in the past in the matter of the forfeit of a candidate's deposit definitely discouraged freak candidates. One of the dangers in the Government's proposal is that the votes given to a freak candidate will count in the result of an election and, surely, it is a reasonable proposal to say that the votes given to a candidate who loses his deposit, that is to say a candidate who does not receive one-eighth of the number of votes cast, a candidate whom the House of Commons has always wished to discourage, should not count when the transfer comes to be made from one candidate to another. The Government, having shown their reasonableness in accepting one Amendment this evening, will, I feel sure, accept such a reasonable proposal as this. If they do not, then they must consider the fantastic results in which we may be involved. A candidate who does not get one-eighth of the votes, a freak candidate, a man who is not a member of any existing party or any organisation, might eventually decide the result of the election. I need use no further arguments in support of so reasonable a proposal, and I hope the Solicitor-General will accept this Amendment in the same spirit as he did the last.
    Sir D. HERBERT: I desire to support the Amendment, not because I am particularly in favour of it, but for a good and sufficient reason, namely, that I think it shows the ridiculous nature of the whole of this scheme and the way in which the Government have absolutely failed to consider our electoral law generally when devising their scheme. It may be that the Attorney-General will-be able to wash away all these difficulties and to show that they do not really exist, but anyone who expects to stand again as a Parliamentary candidate would like to know what will be the law with regard to losing the deposit. There is nothing in the Bill which makes this scheme lit in with the present law under which a candidate loses his deposit if he fails to get one-eighth of the total votes polled. Is the total number of votes polled to be the total of the first preferences, or is it to include the second preferences as well? If so, are second preferences only to count as half a vote or as one vote? And is it not possible, in the case of there being nine candidates—the case I mentioned just now—that if only first preferences are to count for the purposes of losing a deposit, the whole nine candidates might lose their deposit, including the candidate who succeeds eventually in winning the election? [Interruption.] I am not surprised at the laughter of hon. Members opposite, and really if one looks at any Measure proposed by the present Government in a cheerful frame of mind, the only thing to do is to laugh at it. I suggest that by the time we have finished discussing this Schedule we shall be prepared to laugh it altogether out of the Bill.
    Lieut-Colonel Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: This Amendment seems to provoke outbursts of mirth on the benches opposite, but it really seems to me as if there is solid ground for the acceptance of some amendment on these lines. If a Parliamentary candidate is so unpopular, or holds such unpopular views, that he polls so few votes as to forfeit his deposit, it must surely mean that his views are so much at variance with the general views held by the constituents that it is impossible for his votes to be reasonably assimilated by any of the other candidates in the election. Therefore, in those circumstances, it seems to me that, as far as the other

    1077
    candidates are concerned, these votes should be null and void. If a man does hold those views and finds that they are upheld by less than one-eighth of the electors, it is only reasonable that his votes should not be added to the votes polled for any of the other candidates. Would the Attorney-General state what actually is the position under the Bill with regard to forfeiting the deposit? If forfeiture of the deposit is still to be held good, what is the minimum number of votes that a candidate can poll and still recover his deposit? It seems to me that with all these troubles of the Alternative Vote, and the possibilities of an infinitely larger number of candidates, the position as it is to-day might be seriously altered.
    Mr. MANDER: I cannot help feeling that the right hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare), having had to put in a manuscript Amendment at short notice, has hardly given the matter the thought and attention that it deserves. On further reflection I think he will realise that he has proposed something which might have a disastrous effect on the prospects of his party at the next election. As a well-known sympathiser with the Conservative party, I would mention the sort of thing I have in mind. At the present time there is a temporary truce between the Conservative party and Lords Beaverbrook and Rothermere. No one knows how long that truce will last. Trouble may break out again in all its old frenzies, and there might be a whole series of so-called freak candidates put up against Conservative candidates all over the country, either by Lord Beaverbrook or Lord Rothermere. A certain number of votes might go to a freak candidate, but not sufficient to prevent his losing his deposit. In all probability the second choice in the case of these freak candidates would be the Conservative candidate. The Mover of the Amendment will realise that the Amendment might have the effect of losing 30 to 40 seats to the Conservative party, and in his view and that of some people that would be a disaster to the country. I am only doing the wise and kind thing in pointing out to the right hon. Gentleman and his friends exactly what is the pit that they are digging for themselves.
    Major LLEWELLIN: The speech to which we have just listened has thrown a very strong light on the way in which the Liberal party consider this Bill. They are looking at it solely from the party point of view. We prefer to see how the Measure is going to act with regard to the country as a whole, and whether it is going to be -worked easily. The Amendment raises a point regarding the candidate who loses his deposit. I see nothing in the Bill to repeal Section 27 (2) of the Representation of the People Act, 1918, which says:
    "For the purposes of this Section the nnmber of votes polled shall be deemed to be the number of ballot papers counted; and where the election is held under the system of the transferable vote the number of votes polled by a candidate shall he the number of votes polled by him as first preferences."
    I believe there is a difference between the system of the Transferable Vote and the system of the Alternative Vote. Therefore the last part of that Subsection does not apply to the Alternative Vote, and we must go back to the first part:
    "For the purposes of this Section, the number of votes polled shall be deemed to be the number of ballot papers counted."
    Under this system we may well get this result: We may count the number of ballot papers and find that on the first count the candidate who subsequently is elected for that constituency forfeits his deposit. At the same time we get the returning officer saying to him, "You cannot have your £150 back because you did not get a sufficient number of ballot papers on the first preferences. You forfeit your deposit, but still I have great pleasure in declaring you Member of Parliament for this constituency." The possibility of such a thing happening shows the Bill to be exactly what it is. We ought certainly to see that the Bill is put into some sort of order and that we get some sort of instruction on these points.
    Commander SOUTHBY: Surely before we go to a Division on the Amendment, we might have some criticism for or against it from the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), who moved the original Amendment. The hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) spent some time in having a sly dig at the Conservative party. He expressed himself as a great sympathiser,

    1079
    I am sure that the Conservative party is very grateful, but at the same time the hon. Member can find plenty of objects of sympathy in his own party. Surely the right hon. Member for Darwen should be the first to say that we cannot have a Gilbertian situation such as was described by my hon. Friend who has just spoken. Or is it that a situation of that kind is so dear to the heart of the Liberal party that they accept it with avidity. It was not until we had heard of the foolishness of the Amendment just adopted that my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea drew up this manuscript Amendment. I hope that we are going to hear some words from the pundits on the Liberal Front Bench on this Amendment. Or is it that they do not like to express a view on an Amendment which they know in their hearts to be a particularly good one?
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL: The right hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment must have been struck by a sudden sense of humour when he went out of the House to draw up this Amendment. He will hardly expect a serious answer to the suggestion put forward. Let me deal with one question put by the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Major Llewellin) as to the position of candidates under this Bill and the forfeiture of their deposit. If the hon. Member had read the Amendments which have been made already in the Bill, he would have found that this matter has been dealt with in Clause 8, Sub-section (2), as amended, which amends Section 27 (2) of the Representation of the People Act, 1918, by introducing the words "according to the principle of the alternative vote." The position is fully covered by Section 27 (2) as it stands.
    Major LLEWELLIN: I am much obliged. I see the point, but we are still referred to the second part of the Subsection, and my argument that a man might still be elected although he forfeits his deposit is not invalidated.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The argument, of course, is perfectly possible to put forward, but its practical application is very difficult to imagine.
    Mr. G. WILSON: If these words which the learned Solicitor-General has pointed out are to be substituted, what is to
    1080
    happen about the universities, which at present are under the transferable vote?
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL: If the hon. Member had followed the Amendments so far made, he would have known that they were not a substitution, but were an addition. As to the manuscript Amendment, I would only say that the present position as regards forfeiture of deposit is in order to penalise candidates and not in order to penalise electors. The suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman is one not based upon any theory of reasonableness or justice.
    Earl WINTERTON: The answer of the learned Solicitor-General shows that he cannot have read the Debates on the Representation of the People Act, 1918. Had he done so, he would have seen that the argument used by the then Home Secretary, Lord Cave, puts a rather different complexion upon the forfeiture of deposits from that just given by the hon. and learned Gentleman. The then Home Secretary, in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, said that the provision relating to the forfeiture of deposits was intended to prevent freak candidates. I should have thought that if it was intended for that, it was also intended to prevent the tendency of people to vote for freak candidates. There is no object in preventing freak candidates unless you do something to prevent people voting for them. The provision was originally put in the 1918 Act because of the doings of a certain Mr. Hunnable who stood as a candidate at by-elections all over the country. He suffered from what some people would not think an illusion—that all parties were more or less mad. He thought they were all more or less bad and all more or less mad. There was quite a number of people who shared his views as to the badness and madness of this House. It was to put an end to what had become a considerable nuisance to the country, and to prevent the candidature of such people, that this provision was put into the Bill.
    I can understand the feeling of the hon. Gentleman below the Gangway against this Amendment, because his party is rapidly reaching the position of Mr. Hunnable, and regarding themselves, in a mad and bad world, as the only sane and good people. If one looks at the number of votes cast at some recent by-elections it will be seen that a larger proportion of

    1081
    people voted for Mr. Hunnable in the old days than have voted for the Liberal party at some of these elections. As I say, it was to prevent the antics of people like Mr. Hunnable that the Government of the day, when bringing in the Representation of the People Act, made this provision, which Lord Cave described as a provision to prevent freak candidates. Let it be noted that the Government do not intend to alter the Representation of the People Act. All that they have made provision for, if I understood the Solicitor-General aright, is that a candidate who has forfeited his deposit shall not be elected—
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The Noble Lord has misunderstood me. The provision is that where forfeiture takes place, the votes which are counted in order to ascertain the forfeiture are to be first preference votes in the case of the Alternative Vote.
    Earl WINTERTON: I think that the point made by my right hon. Friend who moved this Amendment is a legitimate and logical one. If the State, by the Representation of the People Act of 1918, placed this heavy penalty upon the freak candidate, by taking away his deposit from him, it is not right, after imposing that penalty, that the votes of the people who have been foolish enough to vote for the freak candidate should be counted and should influence the general result. That is a perfectly simple and logical issue, and I do not think that the Solicitor-General, even though he did it in the nicest possible way, is entitled to suggest that my right hon. Friend has his tongue in his cheek in proposing this Amendment. It is a perfectly logical Amendment to a ridiculous Bill, and if in the course of these proceedings, some of the matters discussed are such as to arouse laughter, that is not the fault of those who propose Amendments, but the fault of those who have brought forward such a Bill as this.
    Major HILLS: I support what my Noble Friend has said. I suppose I am the only Member here who took part in an election at which Mr. Hunnable stood, and the Committee may be interested to learn the platform on which that gentleman sought the votes of the electors of Jarrow. His first item was, I think, hot water pipes for cemeteries. His second
    1082
    was to have coal-mines above ground, and the third was compulsory mixed bathing. On that programme he actually obtained a certain proportion of votes in Jarrow. In doing so he had to erect his own polling booths because he could not find the deposit, and print his own ballot papers. Yet he polled a certain proportion of votes in that constituency which is in one of the most intelligent counties in England. The hon. Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) I expect took part in that election, and can bear out what I say. I put it to the Committee that electors who vote for a candidate of that sort are not entitled to have their second choices counted. When a voter descends from that romantic level to give a second choice what sort of intelligence is he exercising? I must leave it to the Committee to decide. I cannot define it, but I suggest to the Solicitor-General that this is a serious Amendment and ought to be seriously considered.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: The learned Solicitor-General began his remarks by saying that he would not give a serious reply to the Amendment, and I could not help wondering what sort of fee the hon. and learned Gentleman would receive if he made that sort of reply in an ordinary court of law. I cannot understand why this Committee, on a serious Amendment dealing with the franchise, and affecting some 20,000,000 people, should be treated to a reply from the Solicitor-General which would not be tolerated in any other place. The Solicitor-General, later on, made one interesting remark about first preferences. I am not going into the application of first preferences as regards the earlier parts of the Bill, but I should like to know how it is that, until a few minutes ago, when a question was put by my noble Friend the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) no one had the least idea as to the basis in this Bill, on which a deposit is to be forfeited. Supposing for example that a candidate only polled one-tenth of the total of first preferences. The Solicitor-General has said that we are punishing candidates and not voters. That candidate is to be punished by losing his deposit. But the man who has voted for a candidate who is, presumably, to be regarded as an unnecessary candidate, is to be in exactly the same position as any

    1083
    other voter, and he will be able to transfer his vote to some other candidate. That seems absolutely wrong. His second and third preferences may be given to other candidates and may eventually go to a candidate who obtains the necessary majority. You are punishing the candidate but you are also giving a direct advantage to the man who votes in the first instance for the unnecessary candidate.
    What is going to be the effect of this proposal? Lots of people will put up unnecessary candidates, hoping that they will not forfeit the deposit, but not minding very much whether they do or not. We have all in mind a group who would not mind in the least forfeiting a few deposits out of the 400 candidatures which they advertise for the next Election, but the fact remains that such candidates upset the balance in these elections, and take a certain number of electors away from definite and grave issues. If this Amendment is not accepted, the effect of the provision will be to tell people that they can vote for candidates like Mr. Hunnable, and that it will not matter, because they will have another vote. The English elector, as a rule, is kind hearted, and i f there is some poor wretched candidate with hardly any chance, some people are bound to vote for him on the first preferences, with the result that such people will be encouraged to go to the poll. It took me some time to acclimatise my mind to the seriousness of this Amendment. It seemed novel at first, but having considered all its aspects I am certain that even the most degraded of Governments could not do otherwise than accept it. I notice that the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department is in his place. He is a sensible person, more or less, and I feel sure that he would accept this Amendment. It would have the effect of lightening this part of the Bill, and making it less horribly stupid and impracticable than it is, and it would definitely place a disadvantage in the way of people voting for these unnecessary candidates.
    8.0 p.m.
    Major COLFOX: I support the Amendment because I think that, without it, the Bill will mean handing over the government of this country to the people who are least able to carry on that government.
    1084
    People who vote for freak candidates are obviously freaks or, shall we say, cranks, themselves, and therefore, their opinions are unstable and of little value in relation to the good government of this country. I know that the section of Members who like to call themselves the Liberal party are not concerned with the good government of the country, but are supporting the Bill because they believe that its operation will improve the chances of their party in returning Members to this House. Therefore, I can understand their opposition to the Amendment, but that observation does not apply either to the supporters of His Majesty's Government or to His Majesty's Opposition. Both Socialists and Conservatives are, each in their own way, concerned with the good government of the country, and therefore, it seems ridiculous that this Amendment should be resisted, because without it we run a grave risk of handing over the selection of Members of Parliament to those who are least able to exercise a wise judgment on that point. Goodness knows, the present system of election produces some very odd and peculiar results. One has only to look at the benches opposite to see how the present law operates in providing the country with—I will not use the expression, freak Members of Parliament—but at any rate, peculiar people as Members of Parliament. Therefore it seems to me that it is the height of folly to run the risk of increasing the oddness and the peculiarities which are already sufficiently in evidence in this House. The logical conclusion of the resistance to this Amendment is to include within the electorate all inmates of lunatic asylums, because it is only people who are verging on that unhappy condition who can be persuaded to vote for such people as the Mr. Hunnable who has been mentioned and indeed for many representatives of the Liberal party. The only objection that I see to this Amendment, and it is not a very serious objection, is that if the Amendment is not incorporated in the Bill, it might easily prevent Liberal candidates from being of any use whatever to anybody, because undoubtedly, as we know from experience, in the vast majority of cases they are at the bottom of the poll, and in a very large number of those cases

    1085
    they are so far at the bottom of the poll that they forfeit their deposit. If they seriously intend to continue running candidates at the forthcoming election, the proportion of their candidates who will forfeit their deposits must greatly increase. The only chance that they have of being of any use to anybody is that some of their votes, useless as they are to themselves, might be
    transferred to other and better candidates. But that is a minor defect in the Amendment, and it has so many advantages attaching to it that I shall support it.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 108; Noes, 234.

    Division No. 243.]

    AYES.

    [8.4 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel.

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Albery, Irving James

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Remer, John R.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Balniel, Lord

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Berry, Sir George

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford)

    Simms, Major-General J.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Broadbent, Colonel J.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Smith, Louie W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Thompson, Luke

    Christie, J. A.

    Llewellin, Major J. J.

    Thomson, Sir F.

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Wallace. Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Meller, R. J.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Penny, Sir George

    Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Captain Sir George Bowyer and

    The Marquess of Titchfield.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Burgess, F. G.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    England, Colonel A.

    Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

    Caine, Hall-, Derwent

    Freeman, Peter

    Ammon, Charles George

    Cameron. A. G.

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Cape, Thomas

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Arnott, John

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Charleton, H. C.

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Chater, Daniel

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Ayles, Walter

    Cluse, W. S.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Gillett, George M.

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Glassey, A. E.

    Barr, James

    Compton, Joseph

    Gossling, A. G.

    Batey, Joseph

    Cove, William G.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Daggar, George

    Granville, E.

    Benson, G.

    Dallas, George

    Gray, Milner

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

    Birkett, W. Norman

    Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Bowen, J. W.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Dudgeon, Major C. R.

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Bromfield, William

    Dukes, C.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Bromley, J.

    Duncan, Charles

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Brothers, M.

    Ede, James Chuter

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Hardie, George D.

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Manning, E. L.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Haycock, A. W.

    Mansfield, W.

    Sandham, E.

    Mayday, Arthur

    March, S.

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Marcus, M.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Markham, S. F.

    Sexton, Sir James

    Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

    Marshall, Fred

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Herriotts, J.

    Mathers, George

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Matters, L. W.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wont worth)

    Messer, Fred

    Shield, George William

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Middleton, G.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Millar, J. D.

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Hollins, A.

    Mills, J. E.

    Shinwell, E.

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Milner, Major J.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Horrabin, J. F

    Montague, Frederick

    Simmons, C. J.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Morley, Ralph

    Sinkinson, George

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

    Mort, D. L.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Muff, G.

    Smith, Lees-, Rt. Hon. H. B. (Keighley)

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Murnin, Hugh

    Sorensen, R.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Kinley, J.

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Strauss, G. R.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

    Lang, Gordon

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Taylor. W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Palin, John Henry

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Toole, Joseph

    Lawrence, Susan

    Palmer, E. T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Lawson, John James

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Walker, J.

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Perry, S. F.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Leach, W.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)

    Phillips, Dr. Marion

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Lees, J.

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    Lindley, Fred W.

    Potts, John S.

    Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Price, M. P.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Pybus, Percy John

    White, H. G.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Lunn, William

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Richards, R.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)

    McElwee, A.

    Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Ritson, J.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Romerll, H. G.

    Wilson, R. J. Narrow)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

    Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Rothschild, J. de

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Rowson, Guy

    McShane, John James

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

    Thurtle.

    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunnico): Sir Dennis Herbert.
    Sir H. YOUNG: On a point of Order. There is a manuscript Amendment in my name, and I do not know whether it has received your attention, Mr. Dunnico, but it should come in as a proviso.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I have considered that Amendment, but I do not select it.
    Sir D. HERBERT: I beg to move, in page 6, line 13, at the end, to insert the words:
    "(2) At an election conducted in accordance with these rules the counting of the votes shall not be commenced until the day succeeding the day of polling."
    The Amendment is a very simple one in principle, and I am moving it in the
    1088
    interests and at the request of some of those who are concerned with the dullest part of elections, the hard work, namely, the returning officers and those who work with them at the polling booths and in the counting rooms. The object of the Amendment is to provide that where an election is conducted under these principles of the Alternative Vote, the counting of the votes shall not be commenced until the following day. There is always pressure on the part of candidates and others who are anxious to see the result, to commence the counting at the earliest possible moment. That is a very good thing to be done to get it out of the way where it can easily be done, but hon. Members will know that in many cases, where the counting is rather more complicated, by the number of candidates or something of that kind, particularly in

    1089
    borough constituencies with two Members and with, say, five candidates, the voting and the counting are more complicated, and it takes longer.
    It must be admitted in all seriousness that the counting under this system of the Alternative Vote must be rather harder work, take rather longer, and require a little more care than the ordinary counting in a perfectly straightforward election for one seat between only two candidates. Therefore the object of this Amendment is to protect those hardworking officials—to whom we always move and second votes of thanks—in order to relieve them from the pressure, which we are only too anxious to put upon them, of sitting up late at night after a hard day's work doing a very important job. In the circumstances, it is only reasonable that the request which has been made to some of us by a number of men who hold the posts of returning officers should be acceded to and that it should be provided that the counting should not take place until next day.
    It is in the interest of the candidates themselves and of all concerned that the counting should be done correctly, without the difficulties, the delay, and the hard work which are entailed where mistakes are made. It takes a long time to reconcile the apparent result of the count with the actual number of votes polled. That kind of thing is likely to be enhanced where the counting of votes is done on the principle of the Alternative Vote if the people counting are tired out and sleepy after a hard day's work, and are feeling that they ought to be asleep and resting. It would be much better and simpler for all concerned that in these circumstances the counting of votes should not take place until the following day. In the Amendment, as I have it on the Paper, the last word is "election," but that, of course, should be "polling."
    Major HILLS: This is a small matter, but it is for the convenience of the officials who have to conduct elections, and I do not think that it will hurt the candidates. To count the votes on the day of the polling is only a matter of personal convenience, but, if we have won, it is just as pleasing to get the knowledge of that the next day, and, if we have lost, the evil moment is postponed.
    1090
    This Amendment expresses the strong desire of those concerned in the matter, and I hope that the Government will see their way to grant this small concession.
    Mr. KELLY: I cannot understand this anxiety to put these words into the Measure. At the present time, there is nothing to compel the counting of votes on the same day as the polling, and surely we can leave it to the discretion of those in charge of the election. If they find that it is too difficult a task to undertake to count the votes on polling day, they can decide to do it on the following day. I hoped to see the hon. Member for Moss Side (Sir G. Hurst) rise and inform the hon. Member for Watford (Sir D. Herbert) that he knows the result of his election by half-past nine. In Manchester, they are able to have the result out within an hour and a half of the close of polling, and it will not take a great deal longer in a city of that type under this scheme. I am amazed that the hon. Member for Watford should begin to say that we must have all our conduct regulated by Act of Parliament.
    Mr. TINKER: I am in sympathy with this Amendment in view of what will happen under the Bill. If there be a closely contested election, and there has to be some transference of votes, the counting will go well on into the morning hours before the result can be declared With the possibility of polling being continued until nine o'clock, there is a tendency for votes to be counted next day, and it would be an advantage to make the practice universal. My own experience is that we should count the votes the next day. That would obviate the anxiety caused by waiting until the votes are all in, when everybody seems to be in a hurry, and the polling clerks, the returning officer, the candidates and everybody concerned seem to be excited. A little reflection and waiting would be better for everybody all round. If I were free, I would vote for the Amendment.
    Mr. CLYNES: I have a great deal of sympathy with the object of this Amendment, and I fully appreciate the motives of the hon. Gentleman in submitting it to the Committee. I wish a larger number of Members were present and that

    1091
    we had time for a fuller discussion on this question, because it is a matter which I should like the Committee to decide in the light of the expressed opinions of many Members. In the absence of those opinions, let me submit one or two points with regard to the Amendment. It is, as the hon. Gentleman said, a simple Amendment, but it raises considerations touching a matter of natural community excitement, which you cannot set aside as though it did not exist. We must consider not merely those who have to do the work in counting the votes, but the electorate and the public. Whatever is said about politicians, there seems to be a great eagerness on the part of the public generally to know who has won. Therefore, it will make a great demand on public patience to ask them to keep themselves in check not merely for a day, but, it may be, for a week-end.
    The hon. Gentleman drew attention to the error in his original Amendment, and pointed out that the word "election" would not be the proper word, and that the right word should be "polling." If that alteration were made, this would be the position. You would have elections on a Saturday, as in very many cases they do take place; in the case of a general election, there is a preference in a large number of cases for Saturday. My first four or five contested elections were always on a Saturday. At any rate, you may depend upon it, there will be a large number of cases where the election will be on a Saturday. I am certain the hon. Member would not desire that the votes should be counted on a Sunday, but according to the terms of the Amendment, that is what the law would require in such a case.
    Lord EUSTACE PERCY: I think Sunday is a dies non from the legal point of view.
    Mr. CLYNES: I may stand corrected in that respect, but I am a little afraid of accepting that conclusion in view of the terms of the Amendment. I was only pointing that out as a danger, and not suggesting that it was the final consideration against the Amendment. The real argument against it is that put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly), who has pointed out that the law at present permits
    1092
    the votes to be counted either on the day of the poll or the day after, and that being the position there is scarcely strong ground for urging that it should be made compulsory to defer counting to the next day. It has been said that if this Bill becomes law a longer time will be required to complete the counting, and that is true, but is it not certain that in those circumstances those who decide these matters locally in consultation with the representatives of the different parties would take all such considerations into account? Probably they would more often than not decide that in the changed circumstances it was better to have she count on the day after the poll. Taking all things into consideration I fear that a case has not been made out for changing the law so as to institute compulsion, and therefore I must ask the Committee not to accept the Amendment.
    Lord E. PERCY: I think the Home Secretary has failed to deal with the most significant argument put forward, the argument of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker). It may seem queer, that I should be reinforcing his argument, but I wish to do so. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) appears to be running in blinkers. That may enable him to see his immediate opponents, but it does not enable him to see the future of the course which he is advocating. This Bill will mean that wherever there are more than two candidates there will be two counts instead of one, and that, roughly speaking, the time of counting will be doubled in every case. I do not think the hon. Member for Rochdale has taken that into consideration.
    Mr. KELLY: Yes, I have.
    Lord E. PERCY: Then I cannot think that his remarks about the extraordinary speed of counting in Manchester, and how they get the result out by half-past 9, has any relation to the case. If Manchester stops polling at 8 o'clock and takes an hour and a half to count the votes now, they would then take another hour and a half, and, if there were four candidates, yet another hour and a half. The hon. Member for Leigh has pointed out a fact that we all know very well, that in a constituency like mine in the

    1093
    south of England the Labour party always like to keep the poll open to 9 o'clock. They like to do that—and they have a right to demand it—against the general, the majority, feeling of all the population except their own supporters, who, unfortunately, are a minority. [Interruption.] It is a minority which has shown no tendency to grow since I have been there. The feeling of the returning officer, the feelings of the poll clerks, the whole feeling of the borough, is against them. If this question is left to the discretion of the local officials, consider the power of exercising pressure which will be put into the hands of the returning officer. Acting perfectly fairly, but, still, with the idea of his own convenience, and after consulting the other candidates, who may wish to have the poll closed earlier—he will be able to say to the Labour candidate, "Of course, if you insist on the poll being kept open to 9 o'clock you cannot have the result of the poll declared until the next day."
    The argument used by the Home Secretary lends force to that danger, because there is a public feeling in favour of having the poll declared as soon as possible, and therefore the returning officer, in making that threat, will have behind him a large element of popular approval from all parties who do not want to be defrauded of this moment of enthusiasm on the night of the poll, even if it comes after the hour at which the public houses are closed, as it will. In a part of the world such as my constituency that will put the Labour candidate at a considerable disadvantage. The hon. Member for Rochdale may smile.
    Mr. KELLY: I do.
    Lord E. PERCY: I am afraid the hon. Member is quite incapable of supposing that any party man ever looks at any problem from the point of view of the public weal, but in spite of that natural bias on his part I think there are hon. Members opposite who will know that I am describing bare facts. I want to remove the possibility of the returning officer exercising that kind of pressure upon the local leaders of the Labour party. I want it to be clearly laid down that whether the poll closes at 8 o'clock or 9 the declaration of the result will
    1094
    take place on the succeeding day. I do not believe there is a single Member of the Labour party who has had real experience of constituencies where the Labour party have been in a permanent minority in the South of England ever since the Labour party began who will not appreciate the desirability of taking out of the hands of the returning officer the possibility of creating prejudice.
    Mr. PALMER: After the speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite I am more than ever inclined to oppose this Amendment. I do not agree with the premises on which this Amendment is founded. I have not yet accepted the view that there will be all this complexity about this system of voting. It has been my experience that it is difficult enough to get electors to cast a single vote, and I think the picture which the Opposition have so carefully drawn about freak candidates and irregular methods of voting will not be seen in reality. In any case, I stand for something like local determination as to when the votes shall be counted. The Noble Lord has thought round his own problem, and I am thinking round mine. I do not want the count in my constituency to be put off till next day, and there is no earthly reason why it should be. We can allow it to be a matter for determination between the parties and the candidates, their agents and the returning officer. No damage will be done. I do not share the view of the Mover of the Amendment that returning officers wish to put off the work of counting. As it is, I think they find the proceedings from the date of nomination of candidates to the declaration of the poll more than sufficiently protracted.
    My experience at every election in which I have fought and participated, is that the people want to get the job over as soon as possible. The Home Secretary has said that we have to consider the public point of view, and not merely the party point of view of the candidates. As a rule an election night is a gala night, and I think there is too much of a tendency to allow important events in our national life to die down. I do not care if the counting goes on into the small hours. I have seen mafficking scenes take place, and I see no reason why, in the case of a great

    1095
    national event like a General Election, people should not celebrate it, and sit up all night if necessary to hear the result. I do not know that many returning officers are asking for an Amendment such as the one we are considering, but if the returning officer has some particular point of view on this question, he can exercise it under the law as it obtains to-day. For these reasons, I hope that full support will be given to the course suggested by the Home Secretary.
    Sir GERALD HURST: I rather sympathise with the view which has been expressed by the Home Secretary that there is great need for some elasticity in regard to this question. I know that the circumstances are different in big county divisions, but I know that in all the 10 divisions of Manchester there is no difficulty about announcing the result by 11 o'clock in the evening. If this Amendment is carried, there would probably be a second count, and perhaps the result would not be known until about 12 o'clock, instead of 11 o'clock. I agree with what has been said upon this matter from the public point of view, and it makes all the difference in the world to the great mass of the people in large towns, because they want to hear the actual announcement of the result on the election day and not on the following Monday when the election takes place on the Saturday, because on the following Monday they are all at work. People are stimulated to look forward to the announcement of the result, whereas if they have to wait for 24 hours it would kill their enthusiasm. I am looking forward to great scenes when the results of the next election are declared and ten Conservatives are returned for Manchester; and the enthusiasm of the people will be damped if they have to wait from Saturday night to Monday morning to hear the result. I think that returning officers have always had due regard to the wishes of all parties, and for these reasons I hope this Amendment will not be pressed to a Division. This is a point well worth consideration, and I think it would be a mistake to lay down a hard-and-fast rule.
    Sir D. HERBERT: The Home Secretary said he had a good deal of sympathy
    1096
    with this Amendment, and, quite frankly, he put forward arguments both for and against it. It is unfortunate that in regard to a matter of this kind there are so few Members in the Committee who would really know what has been said on either side if this Amendment went to a Division. In these circumstances, I am willing to withdraw my Amendment if the Home Secretary will raise no objection to the same Amendment being moved again on the Report stage, and perhaps in the meantime the right hon. Gentleman would be willing to find out whether the returning officers hold very strong views upon this question.
    Mr. CLYNES: I am quite willing to ascertain the views of the returning officers on this question. I agree that the point is one well worth considering, and I will give it further consideration between now and the Report stage.
    Sir D. HERBERT: I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Captain BOURNE: I beg to move, in page 6, line 18, to leave out the words "the candidate who has received the smallest" and to insert instead thereof the words:
    "all the candidates except those two who have received the greatest."
    It will be within the recollection of the Committee that not long ago the Home Secretary accepted an Amendment by which, instead of dealing with only two of the candidates, the voter could deal with four or five, and so on. After the acceptance of the Amendment moved by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) something has to be done to meet the situation, and the situation which has arisen is one which is not uncommon in the case of the Alternative Vole. There are a great many ways of dealing with an election where you have more than three candidates, and we have now to devise an intelligent scheme to put into the Bill. You can knock out the bottom man and transfer his second preferences and then have a fresh count. You can then knock out the next bottom man, and transfer his second preferences and at the same time transfer the third preferences of the man previously knocked out, and so on.

    1097
    Where you have four candidates you have four counts, and where you have five candidates you may have five counts. The system I am suggesting is one which has been in use for 30 or 40 years in Queensland. Where you have four candidates you exclude all except the first two, and the second preferences of the excluded candidate are distributed among those who survive. Suppose that we go back to our old friend A, B, C and D, and imagine that they are returned in that order. I will add E because we have to deal with the larger case. All the candidates except A and B would be excluded in the second count, and, assuming that the preferences of E given to them will be, the second to D, the third to C, and the fourth to B, these preferences would be divided betwen A and B, the total number of votes thus made available for A and B would be ascertained, and whichever of the two receives a majority will be finally declared elected.
    I do not put forward this proposal as ideal, but when there are a great many preferences, in an election where there are many candidates, we have to find what is on the whole the simplest and least objectionable method of dealing with the results. It has been claimed by the Prime Minister, I think by the Home Secretary, and by several others who have spoken in favour of the Alternative Vote, that it has the merit of combining the choice of the voter with the Second Ballot in one single operation. I am merely carrying that to its logical conclusion. Under the system of the Second Ballot, you exclude all candidates except the two at the top, the election is then closed, and the voters can only, in the Second Ballot, express their choice as between A and B. I merely suggest that the further preferences given as between the remaining candidates should go to A and B, and that whichever of these two receives the larger number of votes in the final count shall be declared elected.
    I want to add one further word in support of this proposal. We have just heard an argument in which hon. Members have taken different views as to the possibility of having counts, under the system of the Alternative Vote, on the same night on which the poll takes place. If the system I suggest were
    1098
    adopted, the maximum number of counts would be two, but under the Government's scheme, where there are several candidates, I foresee not only many counts—which I feel certain would be impossible on the night of the poll—but also the necessity for very complicated transfers, with the result that the electorate will not understand why any given candidate is elected, and, in addition, much greater chances of error. It seems to me, therefore, that since the Government have accepted the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen, some provision must be put into this Schedule to smooth out the position, and I believe that the suggestion I have made is the simplest.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: On a point of Order. May I ask you, Mr. Dunnico, which of the Amendments on the Paper we are dicussing in conjunction with this Amendment?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The Amendment that I have called is the one which I have already read to the Committee. There are certain Amendments which are consequential upon this Amendment.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Could you tell us which are consequential?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: It is not ray duty to do that at this stage.
    Mr. C LYNES: I do not think that the acceptance of an earlier Amendment places the Government under any obligation whatever to accept the Amendment which has now been moved. This Amendment proposes the system of Alternative Vote known to us as the Craigmyle scheme, under which all the candidates except the two at the top are eliminated simultaneously, whereas under the Bill candidates are eliminated successively one by one from the bottom of the poll. We think that the better and fairer plan, and the one which best gives effect to the desires and intentions of the electorate, is the plan that I might call piecemeal elimination. The Royal Commission of 1910 pointed out that the system of eliminating simultaneously all the candidates except the first two was, of course, a more Summary method, but that it sacrificed accuracy and did not carry out the intentions of the electors. I understand,

    1099
    or at any rate I have heard, that Lord Craigmyle does not now advocate the method with which his name has been associated. That method is very much nearer to the second ballot than the Alternative Vote proposals embodied in this Bill.
    I think, however, that the principal disadvantage of the proposal contained in this Amendment is that the voters cannot know which two candidates will be left after the first count and, when second preferences are given in favour of a candidate other than the two at the top, the intentions of the electorate would be completely destroyed. On the whole, I think that this Amendment must be resisted, if only for the reason so often adduced from the other side of the Committee, that the acceptance of Amendments of this kind would make the Bill even much worse than it is.
    Lord E. PERCY: I am always puzzled, in dealing with this matter, as to what point I should direct my arguments to, because I am never certain what object hon. Members opposite desire to attain. In other words, I never know what principle I am up against. The Home Secretary has swept this Amendment aside on the ground that the voter cannot know who the two top candidates will be, and, therefore, has no means of knowing where his Preference Votes will be effective. Surely, however, that is an argument against the present scheme of the Government, because no preference given to the man who finds himself at the bottom of the poll will be of any use at all. The Home Secretary might just as well say, "My scheme is hopeless because no voter knows whether the man to whom he is giving his second preference is not going to be at the bottom of the poll, in which case his second preference will never be counted." That kind of uncertainty is inherent in any scheme except that proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young) earlier in the day. If you want a scientific scheme, which gets over that difficulty and leaves the voter with the minimum of uncertainty, take the scheme of my right hon. Friend.
    The argument of the Home Secretary really misses the point. The advantage of this present proposal is that the voter
    1100
    has not to decide or guess which two candidates will be at the head of the poll on the first count, because, if he gives his preference, as he is now able to do under the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), to all the candidates in the order upon which he decides, he must clearly vote for the two top candidates, and, supposing that there are six candidates, and that he gives his fifth preference to B and his sixth to A, those votes will be counted as second preference votes for all purposes. Therefore, so far from the argument of the Home Secretary being valid, this proposal is precisely a means for ridding the voter of the uncertainty under which he is under the Government scheme in regard to knowing for which candidate it is useless to vote.
    Under the Government scheme he has to guess which candidate is going to be at the bottom of the poll. This wipes out that difficulty. He can give his vote for each of the candidates knowing that, whichever two are left in after the first count, his preference as between those two top candidates will tell in the election. What possible argument can there be against that system? It is all very well identifying it with the name of Lord Craigmyle, but it was in operation in Queensland considerably before Lord Craigmyle thought of it. It is rather an instance of our proverbial insularity that we should call it by the name of a gentleman who talked about it rather than by the name of the State which has actually put it into force. You have to choose between this method and that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen, which is death by a thousand cuts. There must be as many counts as there are candidates, or as many counts as there are candidates minus one. It is certainly a more complicated scheme. Those who rejected the proposal of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks earlier in the day will prefer to vote for this alternative rather than that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen.
    9.0 p.m.
    There is an argument of principle which I will put before the Committee, because it is the principle for which we have always stood consistently throughout these Debates. That system, according to us, is best which forces upon the attention

    1101
    of the voter his duty to elect a Government in a majority—not to exercise his vote according to his dislikes, but to vote for the man whom he wants. At any rate, under this proposal you bring that issue as prominently as you can under any Alternative Vote system before the elector. He must in the last resort-exercise his preference between the last two candidates who are in. He does not know which they are, but it becomes essential for him, in stating his order of preference, not to state it on purely frivolous grounds, but to remember when he puts the last "five" and "six," if there are six candidates, against the names of his ultimate choice he is not merely voting for a fifth and a sixth choice, but even then in the last resort, when he is driven, as it were, to his last corner, he must ask himself whether he wishes A or B or 5 or 6 to be the governer of the country for the next five years. That at least is something. This Alternative Vote system is designed to give us the weakest possible executive during the coming years, when what we shall need most is a strong executive with a positive policy. That is why we bate all this idea of the Alternative Vote. That is why every Member on tie other side hates the very mention of the Alternative Vote. Hon. Members opposite dare not talk about this when they go to their constituents, and their constituents never hear of what is going on in the House of Commons. We all feel that the days that we spend on this Bill are part of the byplay of politics. We do not attach any importance to it. The next few years are going to be years for strong executives and not for compromises. It is impossible to rescue much out of the Alternative Vote system. You can never get a strong executive out of it. You will never rid yourselves of compromises and logrolling. At least this proposal saves something out of the wreck and forces every voter to consider in the last resort whether he wishes A or B, whether he wishes this principle or that principle, to govern the country.
    Sir G. HURST: There is one striking advantage conferred by the Amendment which I do not think my Noble Friend alluded to, and that is that it absolutely secures a constituency against having as its Member a man who came lower than
    1102
    second on the first vote. This seems to me of the very greatest importance. The Home Secretary said the Amendment would defeat the object of the Bill, which is to give every constituency the representation that it really desires. It is difficult to say that it is the real desire of any constituency which, on the record of the first preferences, returns a man third or fourth or fifth that that man should represent it. If the Amendment is carried, it means that one of two men only can represent the constituency, the man who comes first or the man who come? second on the record of the first preferences. It secures the constituency against what I suggest is the absurd anomaly of having as its representative a man who came third or fourth or fifth on the first preferences. Apart from the larger constitutional issues to which the Noble Lord referred, it seems to me an extraordinarily undemocratic thing to resist the Amendment. By resisting it, you are making it possible for a man whose whole programme attracts so little confidence that he comes third or fourth on the first vote to be the Member of Parliament for the constituency. That cannot be described as democracy. It cannot be described as securing for a constituency the representation that it wishes. I hope hon. Member opposite will realise the true bearing of the Amendment before they vote against it.
    Mr. TINKER: I have been trying to find out the respective advantages of these two alternative systems. If there are five or six candidates, you must make 6ve or six preferences.
    Lord E. PERCY: Under the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), he will have as many preferences as there are candidates—1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, right away down the list.
    Mr. TINKER: He will determine A and B also; is that it?
    Lord E. PERCY: Wherever A and B come, whether they come 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, he will express the preference as between those two, whether he votes for A 3 and B 2, or A 6 and B 5.
    Mr. TINKER: I will give an instance in regard to the election of officials of my union. We may have a dozen candidates

    1103
    in the field, and we want to get the man who receives the majority of the votes. If there are 30,000 votes, the two top candidates may get 6,000 each, and a third may get 5,000, and then they will probably tail off. If we cut the one with 5,000, and the remainder with fewer votes, we might probably cut out the winner. It has happened in that way in regard to the appointment of two miners' agents in Lancashire. The two men who came out at the top of the first ballot did not succeed in getting the jobs. We eliminated, first of all the bottom candidate, and continued to cut out the candidates until only four candidates were left in the final voting, and, strange to say, the two candidates who had come out at the top of the first ballot did not get the jobs. Therefore, if we wish to stand for democracy, as we understand democracy in our trade unions, we should not be doing right if we agreed with what hon. Members on the opposite side of the Committee have said.
    Lord E. PERCY: The hon. Member pointed out that the number of candidates was reduced according to certain proportions. He did not take a fresh count on the elimination of each individual.
    Mr. TINKER: There were 12 candidates in the election, and we knocked out four on the first occasion, and four on the second occasion, and it so worked out that the two men who were at the top on the first occasion did not get the jobs. I agree with the Noble Lord that the whole thing is complicated. I am certainly not at all in love with the Bill, but as it is before the Committee one has to direct his attention towards getting the very best out of it without confusing the electorate. Whatever hon. Members opposite have in their minds in an endeavour to make this a better Bill, their proposal on this occasion is not a good one. I think that the view adopted by the Home Secretary is the proper one, and I shall support him on this occasion.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: There is not very much between the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) and ourselves in regard to this Amendment. He was dealing with a question where there were 12 candidates for two vacancies. In the majority of cases I do not think that
    1104
    there will be more than about four, five, or, at the outside, six candidates for one vacancy. The hon. Member eliminated four candidates, and then four again, and then came to the last four. Therefore our way is very little different from his as far as proportions go. We say that in an average electorate there will probably be three or four candidates, and if we take the two top candidates as reasonably certain of getting in, they correspond with the proportion of tour candidates instanced by the hon. Member. He takes out four candidates and then another four. We should do it a little differently from that, though there would not be very much difference. We should eliminate them down to two, and the votes of the candidates who were eliminated would be divided between those two. If you have five or six candidates, it is almost certain that the bottom candidate will lose his deposit.
    The Government way, which, I think, is very slow and cumbrous, would appear to be that you would eliminate the bottom candidate and use his votes, you would eliminate the fifth candidate and use his votes, you would eliminate the fourth candidate and use his votes, and you would use precisely the same process with regard to No. 3 candidate and so on, whereas we should eliminate all the candidates down to two. Let me illustrate a little further how hopeless the position is going to be, unless you have a simpler process of elimination. If you have five candidates, and on your first count you find that No. 5 candidate has only 1,000 votes or even less, or that the fourth and fifth candidates between them have only 3,000 or 4,000 votes out of a total of, perhaps, 30,000 or 40,000, you have to go through the voting papers of No. 5 candidate and add them to other candidates. If there are five candidates and the requisite proportion has been obtained, it really means that the lowest and the worst has the deciding votes. The Government have not made the position clear.
    I come to another point, which ought to be emphasised. It was the point made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Moss Side (Sir G. Hurst), that as far as this Amendment is concerned you restore the balance that has been taken away. It would let the people know that if they are voting for the first

    1105
    three candidates we are restoring the direct power to the man who gets the largest number of first preference votes. That would mean that the man whom the largest number of people wish to be returned as their member, or the candidate who has the second largest majority of people who want him to be returned as their own member would be so placed that the choice would be brought down between those two candidates. It would not be necessary to go down the list so far as the candidate who has the third or the fourth largest majority of people who want him to get in, but the position would be restored in favour of the first or second favourites in the first preferences. We know that the Government are forced into this position and that their difficulties are enormous. We have great sympathy with them, but I do say that all the arguments are in favour of doing something to restore the balance which is being taken away from the first choices of the electors, and that can be done by our series of Amendments.
    I have never been able to understand how, if there are five candidates, the voter who has voted three, four and five will know whether or not in the long run he has voted for a particular person. It is impossible if one tries to work out the figures to discover how the ordinary voter who has voted for his candidate, Mr. Jones, will know, if Mr. Brown gets in, if Mr. Jones is five, four or three, how his vote has worked out in the final result. The procedure of the ballot being secret, it is difficult to know how the declaration will be made. If our Amendment were accepted, the system would be simplified and every voter who gave his vote three, four or five, would be able to know how his vote was counted in the first choice. In that way there would be a more direct connection between the voter and the Member.
    We ought to have a straight answer from the Government why they cannot accept our Amendment. They accepted an Amendment earlier to-day from another part of the House. Surely, when we on this side, who represent a very great interest in the country and a very large number of votes ask them to give consideration to our series of Amendments, we are justified in asking that for once in connection with this Bill we shall be given some alleviation and
    1106
    help from the Government. We have had nothing offered to us. I hope that the right hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) will press the point and that we shall be able to extract one small crumb of comfort from the Government, and that we shall be able to do something to make a disgraceful Schedule better than it is.
    Sir S. HOARE: I was very much interested in the speech of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker). He seemed to go a very long way in support of our Amendment. As far as I understood his case, there were 12 candidates and they were eliminated not piecemeal but in blocks. Why were they eliminated in blocks?
    Mr. ERNEST BROWN: They formed fours.
    Sir S. HOARE: The hon. Member says that they formed fours and were eliminated in fours. I imagine that they were eliminated in fours because it would have been clumsy to have eliminated them piecemeal, one by one. Am I right in assuming that that was so?
    Mr. TINKER Mr. TINKER indicated assent.
    Sir S. HOARE: That is a strong argument in favour of our Amendment. We are faced with an extraordinarily complicated system, under which we shall have a whole series of counts, going on, maybe, for days. The electorate will be muddled as to what is happening, and at the end the candidate who may be the least expected to win may be declared the winner. I should have thought that it would be much better to adopt the simpler system which was accepted in principle by the hon. Member's union, and to make the elimination in blocks, and to give quite definitely a preference to the candidates who come in first or second or, as my hon. Friend behind me suggests, first, second or third. Candidates who come in first, second, or third are entitled to some advantage.
    Mr. TINKER: The Amendment only says the first two.
    Sir S. HOARE: My hon. Friend behind me said that he did not think the first two was sufficient. If there was a general wish on the part of the Committee to extend it to three, I should be willing to extend it to three. We are in agreement with the hon. Member opposite

    1107
    that it is much better to make the elimination by blocks rather than by the complicated and cumbrous system proposed by the Home Secretary. It has not been sufficiently kept in mind that the system we are proposing from this side of the House has been working for a number of years in Queensland. We are making a proposal upon the lines of what has been happening in one of the few parts of the world where the Alternative Vote has been applied. I should have thought that that was a strong argument for its practicability. For the best part of a generation we have seen in operation in Queensland this simpler system under which all candidates are eliminated except two. The preferences of the eliminated candidates go direct, without a whole series of different counts, to one or other of the first two.
    It seemed to me as I listened to the Home Secretary that he was really speaking on a brief that had been prepared for him before he accepted the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). He seemed to think that under our proposal the preferences of the eliminated candidates would not count. That might have been the case before the Committee accepted the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Darwen, but, since that Amendment has been accepted, that criticism cannot be made against our proposals. The later preferences of all eliminated candidates would all count for one or other of the first two candidates. The whole of the Home Secretary's speech was totally irrelevant to our Amendment after the passing of the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Darwen. I am waiting to hear the views of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen on this Amendment for the reason that the Home Secretary described our proposal as being similar to the proposal made by Lord Craigmyle, one of the Liberal delegates to the Ullswater Conference. Lord Craigmyle made this proposal in some detail and argued it before the conference. He not only circulated a memorandum on the subject to members of the conference, but, very much to the annoyance of the Chairman, he also circulated it to the Press. That was his affair and not ours.
    1108
    In any case, it made this proposal all the more public, and, as far as I remember, the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway accepted the proposal. As far as I know he never made the least criticism of its details, but he has since seen fit to sit silently while the Government threw over the proposal, so pleased was he with the fact that the one Amendment which the Government have accepted so far was the one he made earlier in the day. That makes us think all the more that the criticism which we made on the main provisions of the Bill earlier in the Debate are well founded and that the whole Debate is a tactical arrangement between the Government and a few right hon. Gentlemen, below the Gangway. In any case, I hope I have said enough to lead the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway to explain to us why it is that he accepted without a word of criticism Lord Craigmyle's proposal only a few months ago, and why now, by silence, he seems to imply that he has thrown it over and will not support our Amendment when we go into the Lobby in a short time.
    Sir H. SAMUEL: I did not intend to intervene in this Debate, because I am anxious to fulfil what I am sure is the eager desire of hon. Members above the Gangway, namely, to make our proceedings as concise as possible in order that we may come to a rapid decision. Since, however, the right hon. Gentleman has desired me be make a few observations, I cannot refuse to respond to his appeal out of courtesy to him. It is the ease that Lord Craigmyle in the Ullswater Conference did propose a plan of the Alternative Vote which was on the lines of this Amendment. I did not agree with that particular part of that memorandum at the time. It never came to the discussion of details, as far as I remember, at the conference, or I should have made that plain. I am not quite sure whether Lord Craigmyle now adheres to his previous views on that particular detail. For my own part, I do not agree with this Amendment, for the simple reason that if we were to have it, in a number of cases it would really defeat the purpose we have in view in proposing the method of the Alternative Vote.
    I will give a simple illustration. Suppose that there are four candidates, and

    1109
    three parties, and one of them is split. Hon. Members above the Gangway will permit me to assume, again, that, the Conservative party is split between an official Conservative and say, an Empire Crusade candidate. Let us assume that if not so divided they would have a majority, but, being divided, their two candidates are at the bottom of the poll on the first count, the Labour candidate having 10,000 more or less votes, the Liberal 10,000 more or less, and the two Conservative candidates 6,000 each. According to the proper working of the electoral system, they should be able, if they so wish, to combine their votes so as to come out at the top of the poll. That would be the case if the arrangement in the Bill, as amended in the proposal which has been accepted, were to operate. If this Amendment were to operate, on the first count it would be Labour 10,000, Liberal 10,000, official Conservative 6,000, and unofficial Conservative 6,000. The last two on the poll would be struck out on the first count, and would not be able to give their preferences to one another. They might not have given their preferences at all to the Labour or Liberal candidates and all that would happen would be that the Conservative majority of 12,000 as against 10,000 for each of the other two
    parties would have been defeated, and at the very beginning of counting they would have been entirely ruled out of the running and have no chance whatever of coming to the top of the poll. That obviously is wrong, and therefore I think the Amendment should be rejected.
    Lord E. PERCY: I thank the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway for his solicitude for the Conservative party, but I would point out that the instance he gives really does not move me at all. In the case he mentions, the 12,000 united Conservative votes would, in the final count, be far overruled by the fact that 10,000 more or less Labour votes and 10,000 more or less Liberal votes would have been interchanged, and the Conservatives would have been beaten in the end by 20,000 votes against 12,000 votes instead of at the beginning by 20,000 votes to 6,000 votes. If I am going to suffer execution, I would rather suffer it by the summary and painless method of execution than by a process of death by a thousand cuts.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 119.

    Division No. 244.]

    AYES.

    [9.34 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Granville, E.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Gray, Milner

    Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Compton, Joseph

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Cove, William G.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Arnott, John

    Daggar, George

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Dallas, George

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Ayles, Walter

    Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Davies, E. C. (Montgomery)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Barr, James

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Hardie, George D.

    Batey, Joseph

    Dudgeon, Major C. R.

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Dukes, C.

    Haycock, A. W.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Duncan, Charles

    Hayday, Arthur

    Benson, G.

    Ede, James Chuter

    Hayes, John Henry

    Birkett, W. Norman

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Herriotts, J.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Elmley, Viscount

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Bromfield, William

    Foot, Isaac

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Bromley, J.

    Freeman, Peter

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Brothers, M.

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Hollins, A.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Burgess, F. G.

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Burgin, Dr. E. L.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley)

    Jones, Llewellyn-, F.

    Caine, Hall-, Derwent

    Gillett, George M.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Cameron, A. G.

    Glassey, A. E.

    Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

    Cape, Thomas

    Gossling, A. G.

    Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Chater, Daniel

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Mort, D. L.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Muff, G.

    Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington)

    Kinley, J.

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    Kirkwood, D.

    Murnin, Hugh

    Sinkinson, George

    Lang, Gordon

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Newman. Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Smith, Lees-, Rt. Hon. H. B. (Keighley)

    Lawson, John James

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Leach, W.

    Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

    Sorensen, R.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)

    Palin, John Henry

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Lees, J.

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Stephen, Campbell

    Lindley, Fred W.

    Palmer, E. T.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Perry, S. F.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Lunn, William

    Phillips, Dr. Marion

    Tillett, Ben

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    Tinker, John Joseph

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Toole, Joseph

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Potts, John S.

    Tout, W. J.

    McElwee, A.

    Price, M. p.

    Viant, S. P.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Walker, J.

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Wallace, H. W.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor

    Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline).

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    McShane, John James

    Richards, R.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

    Manning, E. L.

    Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Westwood, Joseph

    Mansfield, W.

    Ritson, J.

    White, H. G.

    March, S.

    Romerll, H. G.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Marcus, M.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

    Markham, S. F.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Marshall, Fred

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Mathers, George

    Sanders, W. S.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Matters, L. W.

    Sandham, E.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Messer, Fred

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Middleton, G.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Millar, J. D.

    Sexton, Sir James

    Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

    Mills, J. E.

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

    Milner, Major J.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Montague, Frederick

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Shield, George William

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Morley, Ralph

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Mr. T. Henderson and Mr.

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Charleton.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Shinwell, E.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Long, Major Hon. Eris

    Albery, Irving James

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Berry, Sir George

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Purbrick, R.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Broadbent, Colonel J.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'f'd., Hexham)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Remer, John R.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James

    Bullock, Captain Malcolm

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclcsall)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford)

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E.

    Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Christie, J. A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Simms, Major-General J.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Skelton, A. N.

    Despencer-Robertson, Major J- A. F.

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    England, Colonel A.

    Llewellin, Major J. J.

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    1112

    1113

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland)

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Waterhoue, Captain Charles

    Thompson, Luke

    Wells, Sydney R.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Thomson, Sir F.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Sir George Penny and Captain

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Wallace.

    Sir G. HURST: I beg to move, in page 6, line 22, after the word "as," to insert the word "half".
    This Amendment aims at giving only half a vote to the second choice indicated on a ballot paper by a voter. When I put this Amendment down I little imagined that five hon. Members of the Socialist party would add their names to it, and I hope that when it goes to a Division they will be faithful to their first choice and not record their votes on the principle of the second preference. The aim of the Amendment is to mitigate to some extent the grave injustice which the Bill inflicts upon the majority of voters in any constituency. The Bill in its present form gives those voters who vote for the last of three candidates, or any number of candidates, two votes when those who have voted for the first or second candidate have only one vote. Although in theory it may be that the votes of those who have voted for the first or second candidates are recounted on the second count, what really happens is that those whose votes are thrown away on the last candidate have a second vote which can be attributed to one of the surviving candidates. Those who have voted for the first or second candidate have no second vote in those circumstances. The aim of the Amendment is to mitigate that unfairness by giving those electors who vote for the bottom candidate on the first poll one and a half votes instead of two. That is much fairer than the proposal in the Bill. I submit, in the first place, that it is much fairer to the majority of the electors in anly constituency. In addition to this, from the point of view of those who seek to carry out the true meaning of democracy, it is obvious that a man who records his vote in favour of a candidate by way of second preference has not got the same zeal and desire to get that candidate returned. So that if you give one vote to his first preference and one half vote to his second preference, you are really carrying out that elector's true intentions much more faithfully than if you give one vote for his first choice and one for his second choice.
    1114
    A third reason is that this scheme is less likely to disturb the true view and opinion of any constituency. The best test for the type of policy which a constituency desires to have forwarded is the number of votes recorded on the first ballot. It is idle to suggest that an elaborate and complex system of the transferable and Alternative Vote, which may go on, count after count, and may have the effect of ultimately returning the man who was third or fourth or fifth in the first ballot as the Member for the constituency—it is idle to suggest that such a result represents the true political opinion of any constituency. For those reasons I suggest that the Amendment provides a fairer and more democratic scheme than the scheme provided in the Bill. It has also collateral advantages. Hon. Members who were in the House when the last Amendment was debated will remember the point made by the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), who said that what we ought to aim at was to have a strong executive Government in this country, and that the Bill was designed to make a strong executive Government impossible.
    The smaller the power which you attribute to a second preference the less chance there is of the survival of a third party in English politics. My contention is that it is an unhealthy and wrong thing for a nation to be governed, as we are governed now, by a small clique of a small party. That is the inevitable result of the three-party system. The point to which the Amendment is directed is the point of giving such power to the second preference as to inflict upon this country for all time the dominance of a log-rolling and group system in English politics. I cannot see how hon. Members opposite can tolerate a political system which perpetuates an evil which everyone, except the Liberal Members, acknowledges to be an unmitigated evil. The only aim in giving this additional value to the Alternative Vote is to preserve the Liberal party, and the Liberal party is not worth preserving.

    1115
    I think we ought to look forward to a time when the more radical element of the Liberal party will humanise the Socialists and make them less revolutionary than they otherwise would be, while the more thoughtful elements of the Liberal party liberalise us. That is probably a truer goal than the goal which the Bill keeps in view.
    By a two-party system you have strong executive Government. Even if you do not agree with the party that is in power it is far better to have a Government that can govern than a Government, like the present one, which cannot. The aim of the Amendment is so to diminish the ill effects of the Alternative Vote that the second preference counts for only one-half the power which the Bill gives it. It is an Amendment which ought to appeal not only to all who believe in democracy but to all who love their country. I welcome the whole-hearted support which we are promised from five distinguished hon. Members of the Labour party. I hope that that promise will come to fruition, and will lead to a reflection in the Division Lobby of what must be the opinion of most thoughtful members of the Labour party.
    Mr. STRAUSS: I desire to support the Amendment, but not for the reasons put forward by the Mover. I hope that the learned Solicitor-General will not have his sympathies alienated by the fact that, through the accident of time, the Amendment has been moved by the Opposition, but that he will give sympathetic consideration to a proposal which has the support of a number of Members on the Labour benches. No one suggests that the principle of the Alternative Vote is a perfect electoral device. Its strongest advocates will admit that it has defects and dangers. It is the purpose of the Amendment as far as possible to lessen those defects. Advocates of the Alternative Vote urge that it is a convenient method of holding a second ballot without going to the difficulties of another election. They say that it frequently happens that trade unions and other bodies elect their officers on the basis of the Alternative Vote or the second ballot. But it is, I suggest, a very different matter indeed when a body is choosing an individual and when it is choosing a Government or
    1116
    deciding on a policy. When the electors are asked to vote in an election they are not asked to say whether they prefer the individual Smith, Jones or Robinson; they are asked to say which party or political philosophy they wish to dominate national affairs for a period. There is, I claim, a considerable difference.
    I believe that under the Alternative Vote, as suggested in the Bill, those political philosophies would get damaged in the process; that inevitable compromises would be made between the candidates; that our political creeds would have their salient points rubbed off and their edges blurred, and that virility of thought and action in politics would be at a discount and inertia at a premium. I suggest that a remedy to overcome that danger would be to count the Alternative Vote as a half. Plainly if it only counts as half ft vote, candidates will be only half as anxious to angle for it. The Amendment should be treated seriously. The question may be asked, Why have an Alternative Vote at all I A very strong case may be made out for it in certain circumstances. In an election where the three candidates are our old friends A, B and C, who get 20,000 votes, 19,000 votes and 18,000 votes respectively, possibly there might be a very big preponderance of C's second preference votes, possibly up to 10,000 or 12,000, in favour of B. In those circumstances, it is plainly fair that B should be returned.
    May I put another case? Supposing A gets 20,000 votes, B 19,000, and G 4,000, I cannot consider it fair, if C's second preferences are, say, 1,002, that they should displace A and elect B. I believe it would be much fairer if C's 1,002 second preferences only counted as 501, and if A remained at the top of the poll. In other words, unless there was a very big preponderance of second preferences of the rejected candidate, for the second man, then the first man should remain at the head of the poll. I also believe that the second vote has not the same value in this matter as the first. It is plainly impossible to say with mathematical exactitude what its value is and what its comparative weight ought to be, but I suggest that one-half is a reasonable figure and it certainly has the beauty of simplicity. This Amendment seeks, while retaining the principle and

    1117
    the benefit of the Alternative Vote, to mitigate some of the evil results to the Government of the country which are likely, I believe, to ensue, and it seeks to bring an element of justice into the practical application of the principle which at the moment is absent. I hope it will commend itself to the Solicitor-General and the Committee.
    10.0 p.m.
    Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH: I am very grateful to the Mover of this Amendment in that he has exposed his object-so plainly. He has stated in terms that its object is to eliminate the party which sits on these benches, and I am not altogether surprised that for that purpose he has enlisted the support of five Members from the benches opposite. I would ask hon. Members opposite to realise that they have a short way to fame and favour because, as soon as they begin to enter into these immoral coalitions with hon. Members above the Gangway, they suddenly become "distinguished," they suddenly become "honourable." I expect that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy) was surprised at finding himself referred to from such a quarter as "distinguished." I should think that it must be the first time for many years that that has happened and he knows, now, how he can secure a testimonial to his respectability. The object of the Amendment, apparently, is to prevent log rolling in our public life, but it does not seem to go all the way. Apparently it is only going to say that our politicians are to roll half a log instead of a whole log. Instead of our politics being deprived of the whole of their virality, they are only to be deprived of half their virality. But it is unnecessary to follow into all its ramifications a proposal the object of which have been so plainly exposed. Hon. Members above the Gangway want to have a two-party system, however many parties there may be in the country. It means nothing to them whether the House of Commons reflects the opinion of the country or not. They think it better to have only two parties because then there is one chance in two of being in power and that idea seems to meet with a sympathetic response in at any rate five hearts among those on the benches opposite. But I hope that emotions and
    1118
    temptations of that kind will not rule among hon. Members opposite, in general. There is nothing to be said for this proposal at all. The Mover tried to make out that there was some kind of injustice and that the supporters of our old friend C, who is always so unfortunate, were able to have two votes against one. But that is absolutely untrue, because if the election results in a clear majority for one candidate, then every voter votes once and once only. If there is not a clear majority, then every voter votes twice if he so chooses—that is, if he chooses to indicate a second preference. The only person who has "got a grouse" at all, if there is to be any complaint, is the man who has supported C in the first instance, because whereas the supporters of A and B are able to record once again their unaltered devotion to Mr. A or Mr. B whose merits they so much admire, and therefore to get the dearest wish of their hearts recorded, the supporters of C pay the penalty for being at the bottom and have to be content with indicating a second preference. If anybody is cheated of his full electoral influence it is the supporter of the bottom candidate, and I suppose it is quite right, and that that is the penalty which they pay for being at the bottom, but there is no other penalty paid by anybody. I suggest that the method proposed in the Bill is the only workable one, and that nobody who has considered the question seriously will be misled by these petty calculations of party advantage which have been so nakedly exposed by the Mover of the Amendment.
    Sir S. HOARE: The hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. K. Griffith) is under a misapprehension. My hon. Friend has not moved this Amendment to eliminate the party below the Gangway. [HON. MEMBERS: "He said so!"] No, we shall leave that to the electorate and, whatever system may be introduced, if we are to judge from the by-elections at Scarborough and Ashton-under-Lyne, it is quite unnecessary for us to worry about any new arrangement for ensuring that result. This is a reasonable Amendment, and I would ask hon. Members to brush aside the partisan fury which the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough has tried to introduce, and to look at it simply from the point of view of their

    1119
    own practical experience. Let them ask themselves this simple question. Is not the most important vote given by any voter his first vote—the vote which he gives for the party of which he is a member, and for the candidate whom he wishes to see returned? Surely the answer to that question must be "yes," and, that being so, is it not only fair and just that the vote which he really desires to count should count for more than a vote which is of quite secondary importance? I should have thought, therefore, that it was only a fair and moderate proposal that the first vote should count for twice as much as the second.
    There is another reason why this Amendment should be accepted, and I commend this argument particularly to hon. Members opposite who have put their names down to it. It has been the experience of countries and territories where the Alternative Vote has been in operation that the swing of the pendulum has been made much greater by the Alternative Vote than it would have been otherwise. I am one of those who, rightly or wrongly, think that any extreme swing of the pendulum is a bad thing from the point of view of the national interest generally. I should have thought in any case that it was desirable for hon. Members opposite to limit this swing to the extent of halving the second vote. It is not for me to advise hon. Members opposite as to their own party interests, but I would certainly have thought, from one's own experience of politics, that it-was very unwise for them to give their support to the proposals of the Bill as it stands, which will quite inevitably make the swing greater against the Government of the day, whatever that Government may be. For these reasons, and they seem to be very good ones, I very much hope, first of all, that the Government will accept the Amendment and, secondly, if it does not accept it, that the House, each Member voting from his own experience as to what he thinks best, will carry the Amendment and improve the Bill to this extent.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: We are very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) for his good advice to us. I would only remind my hon. Friends that they must beware of the Greeks when
    1120
    they come with gifts. This Amendment was put down really at the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. Strauss). I think it is the most sensible Amendment that I have seen on this Bill, and if only we could for a moment forget our party alignments, it would be a very good thing. Let me clear away a misapprehension on the part of the hon. and learned Member for Moss Side (Sir G. Hurst) and the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Griffith). In this Amendment there is no coalition. My hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth, as is well known, bad to go through certain constitutional forms before putting down the Amendment, and no Members were more surprised than my hon. Friends and I to find that we were in this unholy alliance with the hon. and learned Member for Moss Side. Let me assure the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough that my hon. Friend could have got, not only five, but two score Members to put their names down to this Amendment if he had wished, but only six names were allowed on the Order Paper, and that is why the names of only five Members from this side appear on the Paper.
    The hon. Member for West Middlesbrough has taken alarm at a remark of the hon. and learned Member for Moss Side to the effect that the halving of the second preference vote is intended to destroy the Liberal party. That is an admission from the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough that the Alternative Vote will save the Liberal party. I do not want to comment on this at length, but I am very sorry for a party with a great past and with distinguished Members in this House which really thinks this is likely to save them. [Interruption.] I am making a fair debating point, and the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) knows it.
    I wish to put one other consideration to my hon. Friends la all our discussions on the Alternative Vote it is supposed that the Liberal party will be the gainers or that the Liberal and Labour parties will be the gainers. I traverse that view. I do not think that that will be the way in which it will work out at all. The great questions of the future are going to be economic questions, and I do not believe even that the main issue at the next election will be such a question,

    1121
    for example, as Free Trade and Protection. I believe that there are far greater issues on which we shall have to fight future elections. There are great questions such as public control of the great services, what we call nationalisation, questions such as Socialism and capitalism, and at elections fought on those issues the second preferences will be weighted against this party, to our detriment. Far from being a Liberal and Labour alliance for the exchange of second preferences, I believe it is far more likely—in fact, I am certain—that in the future, though perhaps not at the next election, the second preference will be given for one of the other anti-Socialist parties.
    This Amendment was put down in order that it could be discussed. We are not all voting machines to register the decisions of the party caucuses. It was put forward for fair discussion, and I would like an answer to this question from my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General: Why is it that the second preference should have the same voting rights as the first preference? What is the logic of it? I would ask my hon. Friends on this side, What is the argument to justify the second preference having the same value in the counting of the votes as the first preference? The argument for not giving it is that obviously the second choice should have only half the value of the first. This is an attempt to improve the Bill. We believe it to be fairer and more democratic, and we put forward this proposal quite sincerely and seriously. It has been shown by previous discussions on this Bill how unfairly the proposal at present in the Bill would work. I admit that almost any system that you could devise would have anomalies in it, but we are trying here to remove an anomaly. We put forward this Amendment, as the names attached to it will prove, not in any unfriendly way to the Government, but because we think it is worth discussing, and I would ask the Solicitor-General to give it his most sympathetic consideration.
    Major LLEWELLIN: We were all glad to hear from the last speaker that there were at least two score of his friends around him who had taken a similar view to his on this Amendment. We were also glad to hear that we were
    1122
    not in this House to be mere voting machines, so I hope that he and those two score Members will, at any rate on this occasion, have the courage of supporting this Amendment to give the second preference only half the value of the first preference, because that is quite obviously all that it is entitled to. The only speech that has been made against this proposal, that of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Griffith), clearly proves from his own words that the second preference should not have the same value as the first. He took three candidates, our old friends, as he called them, A, B and C, and he said that the supporters of A have no reason to be dissatisfied, nor have the supporters of B; the only people who are dissatisfied are the supporters of C. They are dissatisfied because they have had to give a vote for a fellow for whom they did not care to vote as much as their first candidate, and the supporters of C originally did not put as much value on their second preferences as they did on their first. If the voters did not put the same value on the second preferences, why should it be given that value by the statute law of this country? The only speech we have heard against the proposal, therefore, was, in fact, a very strong argument for it. If there be anything said about the difficulty of counting halves, the simple way is to take the whole of the second preference votes, and divide them by two. Until the Solicitor-General speaks we shall have had no real argument against the proposal.
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL: The hon. and learned Member who moved this Amendment stated that it was unhealthy and wrong to have a strong third party. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) has explained that the third party is not the Liberal party, so one presumes that it must be aimed at the Beaverbrook party, or at some such party as the hon. and learned Gentleman is particularly alarmed at in his part of the country. I am not clear how the hon. and learned Gentleman thinks the Amendment would fit in with the Bill now that it has been amended to include first, second, third, fourth, and fifth preferences, if necessary. Are they all to have halves after the first, or are they to have one-half, then one-third,

    1123
    then one-quarter, and then one-fifth? If that be the system, it is one which the Committee has already turned down, because it is the Nanson system on which there has already been a Debate, and which the Committee have decided they do not want. In this system, instead of speaking of preferences five, four, three, two and one, you have to speak of one-half, one-third—
    Lieut-Commander KENWORTHY: It would be one-half, one-quarter, one-eighth and one-sixteenth.
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL: The hon. and gallant Gentleman, I am sure, is wrong mathematically. May I explain the point which the hon. and gallant Member desired to have explained why a second preference vote should have the same value as the first preference? The answer is that this system is really equivalent to a system of a second ballot; it has been so explained. After the elimination of the bottom candidate, it is equivalent to starting again, and every voter has a vote for one or the other of the remaining two candidates. In that system, which the Alternative Vote is reproducing, it is obviously right that in the second ballot each voter should have one full vote, and not some have a full vote, and some half a vote. The fallacy of saying, as the hon. and earned Member who moved the Amendment said, that two votes are given by this Bill, is the fallacy which lies at the bottom of this Amendment. Two votes are not given by the Bill. One vote is given, and if that vote becomes useless because of the elimination of a candidate, then the voter has another opportunity of voting. [HON. MEMBERS: "One and one make two!"] Hon. Members opposite are coming on in their mathematics. That, no doubt, is due to the extraordinarily interesting lecture which the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment with reference to n - a, and so on, gave us. The argument in this case is based upon the fallacy that you are at the same time exercising two votes, which you are not doing. You are really exercising the right of the second ballot, although we are making arrangements by which the two ballots can be carried out in one operation, thereby saving time,
    1124
    and it would not be right in the second part of that ballot to say that a certain number of the votes are to be given only a half value. I suggest to the hon. Members on this side who support this Amendment that if they look at the matter from the point of view of the second ballot they will appreciate that we are not really doing what they say.
    Earl WINTERTON: I do not think the answer of the learned Solicitor-General to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is a sufficient one. We on this side deny that the system which the Government will ask us to vote upon in a few minutes' time is the second ballot. It will be apparent to anyone who has listened to the earlier part of the Debate that this scheme differs in many essentials from the second ballot, and, therefore, the question put by the hon. and gallant Member is still unanswered, in my submission. Why should a man's second preference have the same value as his first choice? Or, to put it more simply, why should a voter's second choice have the same value as his first choice? To say that a second choice should have the same value as a first choice is to reduce the representative system to a farce. When a man is asked to vote he obviously skives his vote in favour of a particular candidate, and what the Government are saying is that the man 6hall be entitled to say that in giving his votes he thinks just as highly of another man as he does of the first man, which reduces the system to an absurdity.
    I must refer to the ferocious attack, very curious from such a quarter—a case of the mouton enragé—of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. K. Griffith) on an hon. Member of our party. As one who has sat hour after hour through this Debate I feel that we have had far too much of the position of the Liberal party. We are not legislating here with reference to the position of any particular party. What we ought to be concerned with is the advantage or the disadvantage which the country as a whole and the electorate as a whole will get from the Bill. Every speech from the Liberal party has been directed to one purpose and one purpose alone, to show whether or not a particular proposal will or will not help their party. I think their action was very inappropriate, and

    1125
    I would like to apply an analogy from eel fishing. I am very fond of eel fishing in my spare time. It is a form of blood sport to which I am very much given. When the eel is caught it takes a long time to kill it. You may cut off its head, and the rest of the body still wriggles about. You may cut off its tail, and the rest of it still wriggles about. You may stab it with a knife, and still it wriggles about. That is exactly the position of the Liberal party. On any important question we never know in which direction the Liberal party is next going to wriggle.
    Mr. EDE: I regret that my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General could not find it in his heart to accept this Amendment. This Debate has something of a personal interest to me, because one of the first votes I gave in this House was in favour of this principle when it was advocated by a distinguished Liberal Member, Dr. Chapple, who gave as his reason for advancing it that he thought the election by which I had been returned to the House would have had a better result if my hon. Friend the Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) had been elected. It is true that he dealt with the principle in another way, and he said that the formula was one which any schoolboy could see and had proved the success of the majority candidate which we all desire to see. In that formula the returning officer multiplied the first preference by two and the second preference by one. What was more remarkable was that the rejection of that Bill was moved by the hon. and learned Member for Moss Side (Sir G. Hurst).
    Sir G. HURST: That was a Measure for introducing the Alternative Vote.
    I opposed it for that reason and there is nothing inconsistent in moving an Amendment to reduce by one-half the disadvantages of the Alternative Vote.
    Mr. EDE: The hon. and learned Member for Moss Side was speaking under the Ten Minutes Rule—I am speaking under the Three Minutes Rule—and he was dealing with the mathematical formula. This is what he said:
    "It combines all the disadvantages of the present system and all the disadvantages of proportional representation without any of the advantages of either. The hon. Member proposes to subvert what has been one of the most important characteristics of our constitution for over 600 years. We are slow in making these changes and it is absurd to make them unless some good ground, something beyond mere mathematical formulas, is adduced in their support."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th March, 1923; col. 502, Vol. 161.]
    I regret that the hon. and learned Member cannot accept this proposal to-night, because, had he done so, he would have been giving some reality to the course which he has taken. Some of my hon. Friends have asked me whether a man's second wife is entitled to only half the affection he gave to his first wife. My answer would be that she would spend a great deal of time listening to a recital of the superior virtues of the first wife, and I cannot help thinking that the candidate who is elected on the second preference votes will always be reminded that the candidate to whom the first preference was given was really a superior persons.
    Question put, "That the word 'half' be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 226; Noes, 254.

    Division No. 245.]

    AYES.

    [10.30 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Albery, Irving James

    Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Bullock, Captain Malcolm

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.)

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Butler, R. A.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Campbell, E. T.

    Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Boyce, Leslie

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

    Bracken, B.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

    Balniel, Lord

    Broadbent, Colonel J.

    Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Brown, Col. D. C (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

    Buchan, John

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Berry, Sir George

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Christie, J. A.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Remer, John R.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford)

    Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y)

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Ross, Ronald D.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Inskip, Sir Thomas

    Salmon, Major I.

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Simms, Major-General J.

    Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

    Smithers, Waldron

    Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

    Llewellin, Major J. J.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Dixey, A. C.

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South)

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Fielden E. B.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Thomson, Sir F.

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Thompson, Luke

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Meller, R. J.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Grace, John

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Ward, Lieut-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    O'Neill, Sir H.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Peake, Captain Osbert

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Penny, Sir George

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Peto, Sir Basil E (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Hamilton. Sir George (Ilford)

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Wright, Brig.-Gen, W. D. (Tavist'k)

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Purbrick, R.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Mr. Culverwell and Sir Gerald

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Hurst.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Bowen, J. W.

    Daggar, George

    Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Dallas, George

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Bromfield, William

    Dalton, Hugh

    Alpass, J. H.

    Bromley, J.

    Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Brothers, M.

    Davies, E. C. (Montgomery)

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Arnott, John

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Denman, Hon B. D.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Burgess, F. G.

    Dudgeon, Major C. R.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Burgin, Dr. E. L.

    Dukes, C.

    Ayles, Walter

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Duncan, Charles

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Caine, Hall-, Derwent

    Ede, James Chuter

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Cameron, A. G.

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Cape, Thomas

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Barr, James

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Batey, Joseph

    Chater, Daniel

    Elmley, Viscount

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Cluse, W. S.

    England, Colonel A.

    Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Foot, Isaac

    Benson, G.

    Compton, Joseph

    Freeman, Peter

    Birkett, W. Norman

    Cove, William G.

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    1128

    1129

    George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn)

    Lunn, William

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Sanders, W. S.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    McElwee, A.

    Sandham, E.

    Gillett, George M.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Glassey, A. E.

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Gossling, A. G.

    Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Sexton, Sir James

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    McShane, John James

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Granville, E.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Gray, Milner

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

    Manning, E. L.

    Shield, George William

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Mansfield W.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro W.)

    March, S.

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Marcus, M.

    Shinwell, E.

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Markham, S. F.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Marshall, Fred

    Simmons, C. J.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Mathers, George

    Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Matters, L. W.

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Messer, Fred

    Sinkinson, George

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Middleton, G.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Hardie, George D.

    Millar, J. D.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Harris, Percy A.

    Mills, J. E.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Milner, Major J.

    Smith, Lees-, Rt. Hon. H. B. (Keighley)

    Haycock, A. W.

    Montague, Frederick

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Morley, Ralph

    Sorensen, R.

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Herriotts, J.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Mort, D. L.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Muff, G.

    Tillett, Ben

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Murnin, Hugh

    Toole, Joseph

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    Tout, W. J.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Viant, S. P.

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Walker, J.

    Isaacs, George

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Wallace, H. W.

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor

    Jones, Llewellyn-, F.

    Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Palin, John Henry

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

    Palmer, E. T.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Perry, S. F.

    Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Kelly, W. T.

    Phillips, Dr. Marion

    White, H. G.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Kirkwood, D.

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

    Knight, Holford

    Potts, John S.

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Lang, Gordon

    Price, M. P.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Pybus, Percy John

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Williams, T. (York, Don valley)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Lawson, John James

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Leach, W.

    Richards, R.

    Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Wise, E. F.

    Lees, J.

    Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

    Lindley, Fred W.

    Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Ritson, J.

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Romeril, H. G.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Longden, F.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Mr. Paling and Mr. Charleton.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Rowson, Guy

    It being after half-past Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd March, successively to put forthwith the. Questions necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion.
    Question put, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the First Schedule to the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 253; Noes, 228.

    Division No. 246]

    AYES.

    [10.42 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Arnott, John

    Barr, James

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Batey, Joseph

    Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Ayles, Walter

    Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Benson, G.

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Birkett, W. Norman

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph

    Price, M. P.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Isaacs, George

    Pybus, Percy John

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Bromfield, William

    Jones, Llewellyn-, F.

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Bromley, J.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Brothers, M.

    Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Richards, R.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Burgess, F. G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Burgin, Dr. E. L.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Ritson, J.

    Caine, Hall-, Derwent

    Kirkwood, D.

    Romerll, H. G.

    Cameron, A. G.

    Knight, Holford

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    Lang, Gordon

    Rowson, Guy

    Chater, Daniel

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lawson, John James

    Sanders, W. S.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Sandham, E.

    Cove, William G.

    Leach, W.

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Daggar, George

    Lees, J.

    Sexton, Sir James

    Dallas, George

    Lindley, Fred W.

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Davies, E. C. (Montgomery)

    Longden, F.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Shield, George William

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lunn, William

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Dudgeon, Major C. R.

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Dukes, C.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Shinwell, E.

    Duncan, Charles

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Ede, James Chuter

    McElwee, A.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Edmunds, J. E.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Sinkinson, George

    Elmley, viscount

    Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    England, Colonel A.

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    McShane, John James

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Foot, Isaac

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Freeman, Peter

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Manning, E. L.

    Sorensen, R.

    George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn)

    Mansfield, W.

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    March, S.

    Strauss, G. R.

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Marcus, M.

    Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Markham, S. F.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    Marshall, Fred

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Gillett, George M.

    Mathers, George

    Tillett, Ben

    Glassey, A. E.

    Matters, L. W.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Gossling, A. G.

    Messer, Fred

    Toole, Joseph

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Middleton, G.

    Tout, W. J.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Millar, J. D.

    Viant, S. P.

    Granville, E.

    Mills, J. E.

    Walker, J.

    Gray, Milner

    Milner, Major J.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

    Montague, Frederick

    Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Morley, Ralph

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Mort, D. L.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Muff, G.

    White, H. G.

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Hardie, George D.

    Murnin, Hugh

    Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

    Harris, Percy A.

    Nathan, Major H. L.

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Haycock, A. W.

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Herriotts, J.

    Palmer, E. T.

    Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

    Hicks, Ernest George

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Wise, E. F.

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Perry, S. F.

    Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Phillips, Dr. Marion

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Mr. Paling and Mr. Charleton.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Potts, John S.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Albery, Irving James

    Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

    Astor, Maj. Hon. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    1132

    1133

    Balniel, Lord

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Fielden, E. B.

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Bellairs, Commander Cariyon

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    O'Neill, Sir H.

    Berry, Sir George

    Forestler-walker, Sir L.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Peaks, Captain Osbert

    Bavan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Penny, Sir George

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Grace, John

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Purbrick, R.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Bracken, B.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Broadbent, Colonel J.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Remer, John R.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Reynolds, Col. Sir James

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Buchan, John

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Hamilton. Sir George (Ilford)

    Ross, Ronald D.

    Bullock, Captain Malcolm

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Butler, R. A.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Samuel. A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittoms

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton

    Hunter-Weston. Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Smithers, Waldron

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Christie, J. A.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Churchill. Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South)

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Lewis. Oswald (Colchester)

    Thompson, Luke

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

    Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Llewellin, Major J. J.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Locker-Lampion, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Lymington, Viscount

    Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godlrey

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Marjoribanke, Edward

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Dixey, A. C.

    Meller, R. J.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Morrison. W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Major Sir George Hennessy and

    Sir Frederick Thomson.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Second Schedule (Double-Member constituencies which are to be divided) agreed to.
    Third Schedule (Enactments Repealed) disagreed to.
    Whereupon the CHAIKMAN left the Chair to report the Bill, as amended, to
    1134
    the House, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd March.
    Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 151.]

  MINING INDUSTRY (WELFARE FUND) BILL.
  Not amended considered (in the Standing Committee).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Shinwell): During the proceedings on this Bill in Committee, Members in all quarters expressed approval of the excellent use to which the Miners' Welfare Fund had been put and the magnificent work of the Miners' Welfare Committee. I join in those tributes, and for these reasons I am anxious that the activities of the fund should not be arrested. At the same time, several hon. Members were apprehensive regarding the scope and administration of the fund and expressed doubts as to whether it was desirable in the interests of the industry, particularly having regard to the economic position, to raise, as they described it, so large a sum of money in any given year. I responded to the mild criticism that was offered, and I believe succeeded in convincing the Committee that to interfere with the finance of the fund at this stage would throw the scheme out of gear, and would not only be resented by the mining community but would not be in accordance with the wishes of the House when the Act was passed. At the same time, I shared the apprehensions of hon. Members regarding the future of the fund. For that reason, I promised to conduct an investigation by means of a committee to be set up, and to ensure that the committee would report as quickly as possible. I also promised to make a statement on Third Reading of the Bill to that effect. Since that time I have negotiated with certain persons regarding the personnel of the committee, and although I have not been successful in securing a full complement for the committee I am able to say—T believe the statement will meet with general approval—that Lord Chelmsford, who is at the moment the chairman of the Miners' Welfare Committee and is due to demit office very shortly, has consented to preside over the deliberations of the investigation committee to be set up.
  1136
  I propose, in addition, to appoint a member of the Mining Association and a member of the Miners' Federation of Great Britain, and to give the committee an element of Parliamentary representation by asking an hon. Member from the official Opposition to participate in the proceedings, and to invite an hon. Member of the Liberal party and an hon. Member of the Labour party also to participate. I think it was the desire of the Standing Committee upstairs that there should be an element of Parliamentary representation. We shall have a committee of six members over which Lord Chelmsford will preside. In consultation with Lord Chelmsford I have ascertained that the amount of work involved will make it difficult for the committee to report within 12 months at least, but that everything that can be done will be done to expedite its proceedings. I have invited the Mining Association and the Miners' Federation to nominate representatives, but so far they have not decided who those representatives are to be. However, I hope very shortly to make an announcement to the House of the names.
  As to the terms of reference, I am not yet in a position to give them exactly, but I can give the House a broad outline of our intentions. The committee will examine the extent to which the objects of Section 20 of the Mining Industry Act have been met, and what remains to be done, whether the scope of the fund as defined in that Section, and its administration for the future, are satisfactory, and the committee will be asked to make recommendations on all these matters, with particular reference to the question of the amount and duration of the levy in future. I wish to emphasise the latter point, because several Members of the official Opposition expressed doubts as to the desirability of raising such a large amount in the future and as to the duration of the fund itself. I hold very strong views on this point, but it remains for this committee to conduct its investigations and make recommendations to the Government. I think it unnecessary to make any reference to the finance of the scheme, because that is a point which we fully discussed in Committee and although there was some doubt left in the minds of several hon. Members with regard to the financial position, I did my best to convince them

  1137
  that the finance was sound and that it was essential to raise the amount mentioned by me during the Committee stage. I hope, in these circumstances and in particular, having regard to my confirmation of the promise which I made during the Committee stage to set up this committee and ensure the expedition of its work as much as possible, that the House will now agree to the Third Reading of the Bill.
  Sir PHILIP CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Ther is an old proverb about putting the cart before the horse and I think the first thought which will occur to ail Members of the House is that we would have been in a much better position to deal with this Bill, not only on Second Reading, but in Committee stage if this investigation committee had been appointed previously and if its report had been available. Here is a Bill which is not in the least controversial, about which there is no party controversy, but which deals with the entirely practical question of how far the objects of this fund have been met, how far the finances at present available—a very considerable sum, running, I think, into something like £1,500,000—are adequate to discharge the future obligations which can reasonably and properly come upon the fund, and how far further levies should be made in this industry to discharge necessary and convenient obligations. There has never been any factious opposition. What everybody wanted to know was the facts, but we could not get at them and we cannot even get at them now.
  The hon. Gentleman says with perfect truth that this Welfare Fund is a very good thing and we all agree, but the question is whether the fund has to-day enough money at its disposal to discharge those commitments which are already in view, and those further commitments which may properly come upon it in the future. But nobody can answer that question and he has very properly said that in order to decide the matter, we are to have a committee. I think it is probably a very good committee. Nobody could better preside over such a committee than Lord Chelmsford who, for 10 years I think, has presided over the administration of the fund. Quite obviously members of the Mining Association and of the Miners'
  1138
  Federation are proper parties to any such deliberation. If we are to have a Council of State it is convenient that three appropriate Members should be drawn from the three parties in this House, and if I might make a suggestion, no one would be better fitted to take part in such an inquiry than the right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir D. Maclean), who took a very active part in our deliberations in Committee and obviously takes a great interest in this matter.
  How much more convenient it would have been if we could have had a Committee of this kind in the course of the last year, and if the hon. Gentleman had been able to come to the House with a report from such a Committee. If he had been in that position, I am certain that the recommendations of the Committee would have been adopted by the House and the Bill would have passed straight away, but now we are placed in this really rather absurd position. The object of this Committee is to inquire into the extent to which the objects are met, what remains to be done, and the amount and duration of the levy in the future. But those are the very matters which really came up in the consideration of this Bill. What we wanted to know in debating this Bill was for how long we ought to continue the levy and so on, and we really are now putting the cart before the horse
  We are voting to continue the levy at its old rate for a period of five years, and we are setting up a Committee to inquire how long the levy should go on and how much the levy should be, and that is the kind of thing that ought to have been done before the Bill was introduced. The Government have a passion for Committees—even the Chancellor of the Exchequer says that when you have got 70, one more will not do any harm—and another one really would have done no harm; in fact, it might have done a good deal of good. I accept the proposal to set up this Committee. [Interruption.] Certainly I do. It was a proposal that I myself made in Committee, but I suggested then that the convenient course would have been that we should put a temporary limit upon the Bill and reconsider it when the Committee reported.

  1139
  The position is this: The Bill gets its Third Reading, the Committee is set up, the Committee will conduct an exhaustive inquiry, and when it has reported—at the end, it is suggested, of a year, though I hope, if possible, its deliberations may be more rapid—we shall then have an authoritative report as to what the position of the fund is and what its needs are Quite obviously, when that Committee reports, the report will have to be presented be the House, and the House will have to review the whole position, whatever Government is in office. It is very improbable that the hon. Gentleman will still be there, but whether he is there or whether somebody else is there, the report of this Committee will be presented to Parliament, and Parliament will have to consider it. I have no doubt it will carry very great weight, and probably conclusive weight, with the House as to what the future conduct of this fund is to be; and when that time comes, we shall have to take the decision upon whether the fund ought to be continued, for how long it ought to be continued, and upon what terms. That, in the circumstances in which we find ourselves, is probably the most practical course that we can take, but I venture to express regret that we could not have had, when we considered this Bill in Committee, a really informed discussion upon the findings of the Committee, whereas now we shall have to take that discussion, it may be, 12 months hence.
  Viscountess ASTOR: If the hon. Gentleman wants it to be a strong committee, will he not consider the practicability of putting a woman on it? I am not asking this from any narrow point of view. I have been recently to Wales, and I have seen some of the work of the Welfare Committee; some of it is splendid, but if they had any difficulty in spending their money, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that a woman could suggest really constructive things. There is so much that the best of men cannot think of that even the worst of women might suggest and I hope the hon. Gentleman will consider it. I saw in Wales that there were things that needed to be done, and which would benefit, not only the fathers and mothers, but the whole
  1140
  mining community, if they could be done. A good practical woman is needed on the committee—not a woman with a party point of view; that would be fatal. I say that with real feeling, because I have seen women on committees blinded by party bias: and they do not come from this side of the House. If the hon. Gentleman would appoint a woman, I am sure that Lord Chelmsford would welcome her.
  Colonel LANE FOX: Without entering into the troubled waters that the Noble Lady has endeavoured to stir up, I should like to make one or two remarks on what the Secretary for Mines has said about this Bill. He will remember that he promised that there would be an absolutely independent committee, and the reason why we asked for it was that on this occasion, for the first time in its history, this Bill was not brought in with the agreement of all the parties who have to provide the levy. The committee was set up to inquire into the future working of, and the necessity for, this fund, and it should have on it, as far as possible, absolutely independent persons. Nobody can possibly object to the name of Lord Chelmsford; I cannot imagine a better man; but, as regards the rest of the committee which the hon. Gentleman suggests, I very much regret that he should hare brought into it elements of controversy which might have been left out. It is a mistake to have representatives of the Miners' Federation or the Mining Association, because the controversy, if there be any, about this Bill, has arisen about the difference of opinion between these two bodies. As regards the Members of Parliament, far be it from me to say that they, as representing all parties, are not excellent elements on any committee, but, if any politics were brought into this matter, it would be a great mistake. The success of this work must depend upon maintaining the harmony which has hitherto characterised it. It is one of the finest things in connection with the mining industry that although there has been constant controversy about other things this welfare work has been run with the best of good will by all parties concerned, and I only hope that the hon.

  1141
  Gentleman, in composing his committee as he proposes to do, is not making a mistake. I would far rather have seen three independent people appointed from outside. What they have to deal with are largely questions of figures and ordinary common-sense affairs which do not require special technical mining knowledge. I hope it is not too late even now to alter the composition of the committee.
  Mr. SHINWELL: I have consulted Lord Chelmsford about this matter, and he agrees that it is absolutely desirable to do as we have done.
  Mr. MANDER: I am glad the attempt that was made to reduce the levy or abate it for a time was not successful, because to any one who reads the last annual report it is clear that there is a large amount of work still to be done. The committee, in a number of passages in their report, show that they have been relying on a continuance of the Fund at the old rate for the work they have in hand. While I think the idea of appointing a committee is a very good one, and that the suggestion of the Noble Lady ought to receive consideration, it is very satisfactory to know that the work which has been carried out in such a splendid spirit by the miners and the owners will be continued without interruption for some years to come. After all, the owners are only to be asked to do what other industries are carrying out voluntarily, and I should be glad if it were possible to consider the extension of this principle to other industries. A levy might be made on the products of other industries in which welfare work is inadequate. I represent a number of miners, and have seen what has been done in my own area, and know how the miners, their wives and children appreciate it. Apart from that, I have had many other opportunities of seeing the wonderful work that this welfare movement has done in industry, and I am delighted to think it is going forward unimpeded.
  Major COLVILLE: There is one practical point to which I hope attention will be directed. A new factor has arisen since the Committee stage of the Bill which may alter materially the whole trend of welfare work. An analysis of the schemes up to the present shows
  1142
  that, in addition to the health and education work, there are some 1,196 recreation schemes, and that they cover a large area of land. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has brought forward a proposal to tax land values, and at no time during the three days' discussion of that question did I hear that the land for these welfare schemes was to be exempted from taxation. If the hon. Member can assure me now that such land will be exempted from this tax I shall not press the point, but I feel entitled to direct attention to this matter, because what is happening may alter the whole trend of the schemes. If the land is to be taxed it may induce the trustees of schemes to change the character of them. Instead of going in for recreation grounds they will develop pit-head baths or build pavilions. Further, if it is going to cost more to develop schemes the applications for them will be restricted. This is all new since the Bill was considered in the Committee stage, but I assume that the Committee to be appointed will have their attention directed to all these matters, and, having made such representations as they think necessary to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they will approach the trustees who hold land in the welfare schemes and take measures to protect them.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: As one who has served on the Committee that dealt with this Measure, I was very pleased to hear that the Minister is going to appoint a committee of investigation. I am a little concerned about the terms of reference. The Minister will remember that during the Committee stage the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) raised the question of miners' pensions, but he did not press his point very far. At the fourth sitting of the Committee, I brought forward a suggestion which had been handed to me by certain miners in South Wales. I had been down in South Wales myself. [Laughter.] I do not know why hon. Members laugh. I was born in a mining area, went to school with miners' children, went down the mine, and I know how to work in a mine. Throughout my life I have had great sympathy for the miners. I am bringing forward a matter which was mentioned to me by

  1143
  miners in South Wales, and they were desirous that it should be brought before the Committee. In that district in South Wales there are a large number of men who were not compensated because of accidents but were kept at work on light occupations. Owing to the fact that the collieries have been taken over by other companies these men have been thrown on the scrap heap, and they have been told that they are not entitled to unemployment pay, and in many cases they have had to apply for Poor Law relief. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is not correct."] That is the information which has been given to me from the men themselves. A very good way in which this money could be expended would be by providing some sort of pensions for these men who have been left stranded, and, if the terms of reference to this Committee are wide enough to include these miners, I shall be satisfied. I promised these men that I would bring their case before the House, and I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us whether the Committee will be able to make inquiries in that direction. This may be a little matter as far as the Welfare Fund is concerned, but it is not a little matter to the people who are suffering.
  Mr. GORDON MACDONALD: We fully appreciate what the Minister has done to get this Bill through. I hope the terms of reference will be made wide enough to include pensions, because in Lancashire we feel that there is no better way to spend this money than by providing pensions for those engaged in the mining industry.
  Mr. McSHANE: I hope that the Committee which is going into this matter will note that sometimes, unfortunately, the money in this Welfare Fund is being used to build technical institutes and so on. It seems unfair that this money should be used for purposes which are essentially the purposes of education authorities. This money is primarily intended, not for the community as a whole, and I hope that it will not be used in order to undertake a burden which would ordinarily fall on local authorities, and especially upon education authorities, and so relieve the rates. I have in my constituency as association of miners which,
  1144
  like other associations, has had for a number of years a partial old age pension scheme, giving 3s. or 4s. a week to the older men who have retired. During the last five or six years that fund has broken down, and the pensions have been reduced almost to nothing, and I have been wondering whether it would not be possible, in the case of an association of miners who have some small old age pension scheme voluntarily established, to use the proceeds of this fund to supplement such a scheme, at any rate up to a reasonable amount.
  Mr. C. WILLIAMS: Everyone seems to have gone committee mad, and to think that, as has been indicated by the last two speeches, you have only to set up a committee to be able to use it for a vast extension of this fund. If that is going to be the use made of this Committee, I do not believe that it can be successful in giving a report which the House can carry out on the lines on which this fund was originally established, and, as the Bill has gone through without opposition, and gives a long extension of time, I think it would be unwise and unfair to take advantage of that position to use the Committee for a large extension of the purposes of the fund. The work that it has done has been admirable, everyone agrees with it, and surely it is better to let the Committee go forward on the understanding that it will do what the Minister and my light hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister) have said, namely, inquire into the position of the fund, the amount of money available, how it is used, and if there is any possible way, not in the direction of large extensions, but of gradually using the money so as to get better value for it, and then reporting to the House on the whole position. The Committee ought to go into the matter from an impartial point of view, with a desire to come to a unanimous decision, and I should very much regret it if the sort of thing suggested in the last two speeches were used to upset the scheme.

  HOUSING (RURAL WORKERS) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

  HOUSING (RURAL WORKERS) AMENDMENT BILL.

    CLAUSK 1.—(Extension of time for applying for assistance under s. 2 of 16 & 17 Geo. 5. c. 56.)
    Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: This first Clause is the principal Clause of the Measure and seeks to extend Section 2 (2) of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926, for a further period of five years. In the light of the discussion that took place on the Second Reading I do not think it can be seriously apprehended in any quarter of the House that much objection will be raised to the extension. The opinion was almost unanimous that this was a desirable step to take. I was anxious to move to lengthen the period but I was advised that, in view of the terms of the financial Resolutions, it might be held to be out of order. The hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), my twin brother in this respect, will, I am sure, desire that anything that can be done should be done to promote further housing, particularly in rural areas. There is no union in the country that is suffering more unduly, and I think quite unwarrantably from unemployment than the union in which he occupies such an important and responsible position. In commending this Clause one has only to look at the condition of housing and of unemployment in the building trade in rural areas to come to the conclusion that never was there so much necessity for a Clause of this kind being adopted, I hope unanimously. The Secretary of State for Scotland commended the success of the Act on the experience that Scotland has afforded, and I am glad to think there is increasing evidence that the Act of 1926 is being now- generally adopted in England. When you have said that, no one can say with any confidence that the Act has been adopted as extensively and by as many local authorities as all members of the committee would desire. I hope that, if the hon. Member for East
    1146
    Woolwich speaks on the Bill, he will also urge upon the Government that it is not sufficient merely to pass this particular Clause, but that they should put it actively into operation. I feel sure that no one interested in housing and unemployment, even though he may belong to a different political party from that to which I belong, will desire to retard in any way the operations of this proposal, simply because it is an extension of a Conservative Act.
    In Sub-section (2), of Clause 1, line 15, it says:
    "Subject to the provisions of any amending scheme made by a local authority with the approval of the Minister any reference in a scheme under the said Act to any date in the year nineteen hundred and thirty-one shall be construed as a reference to the corresponding date in the year nineteen hundred and thirty-six."
    I should like the Secretary of State for Scotland to tell us what is the meaning of the phrase:
    "Subject to the provisions of any amending scheme made by a local authority with the approval of the Minister."
    Does it mean that the scheme can be limited by the local authorities, or does it mean that either the Minister of Health or the Secretary of State for Scotland can, by withholding approval, impose a limitation upon either the operation of this Clause or the building operations of particular local authorities in this connection? An explanation ought to be given before we part with the Clause to-night. No doubt the Secretary of State for Scotland or the Under-Secretary of State will be able to give an adequate reply. Speaking on behalf of my party, I commend the proposals which the Government make in Clause 1 of the Bill. I very much regret the halfhearted attitude which the Minister of Health adopted towards these proposals. It was a strange contradiction of the attitude adopted by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, who very generously commended the proposals under the Bill and referred in very glowing terms indeed to the success which the Act of Parliament has achieved in Scotland, [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman on the benches opposite dissents in any way from that proposition, perhaps he will get up and have the courage to say so. If not, I must assume that this is some peculiar manner of his own of giving approval to my method.

    1147
    In many rural areas this Act of Parliament, Section 1 of which is to be extended for five years, is giving the best hope to the agricultural workers of Scotland and England. But for this Act of Parliament and the prospect of the extension of part of it for five years, there would be very little hope of any decent and proper provision being made for the agricultural labourer at a rent which he can afford to pay. The hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), whose attitude I am not sure about, evidently supposes that the agricultural labourer must rely upon the Wheatley Act. Having regard to his close relationship with the late Mir. Wheatley, whom we all respected, he has every hope and confidence in the Wheatley Act in rural areas. I think the hon. Member for East Woolwich will confirm my statement that, far from providing houses at rents which the workers can pay in rural areas, that Act has been a miserable failure. The reason why the Secretary of State for Scotland is bringing forward this proposal is that under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, by the spending of a comparatively small sum of money the agricultural labourer is provided with a cottage, not at the same rent as under the Wheatley Act or the Chamberlain Act, but at a rent which he can afford to pay. It is one of the great advantages of the scheme that one of the conditions laid down is that the houses shall only be used by agricultural labourers. That is not provided for in the Wheatley Act. Under the Wheatley Act, both in town and country, we find houses occupied not by agricultural labourers or by the poorer paid workers, but by people of a different class. In my own area the housing estate has an attraction for borough councillors. Under the Section of the Act which is to be extended for five years, we ensure that houses will be provided at small expense to the agricultural labourer.
    I think the Committee will be satisfied to pass this Clause provided the right hon. Gentleman can give an assurance that there is no question of any limitation either of local authorities or the Minister under Sub-section (2). I can only commend the courage and manly qualities of the right hon. Gentleman when, on Second Reading, he said that he had made a great mistake in voting against the Third Reading of the Conservative
    1148
    Housing Rural Workers Act. He also had the grace to say that he not only regretted it, but asked the House to extend the Act, not for one year, but for five years. Rarely have we seen such gratitude to the Conservative party on the part of right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench. In these circumstances, it would be ungracious of me to prolong the proceedings.
    Mr. SMITHERS: On a point of Order. May I call attention to the attitude of an hon. Member opposite? Is it a Parliamentary attitude to have both feet on the bench and not on the floor?
    Major COLVILLE: I do not think it is generally recognised what a wide scope the Act has. It is called the Rural Workers Housing Act, and in the Preamble it says it is to promote the provision of housing accommodation for agricultural workers and persons whose economic condition is substantially the same as that of such workers. It is not generally recognised—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman is now going outside the point under discussion. The Clause only deals with the extension of the Act for five years.
    Major COLVILLE: In the conferences which the right hon. Gentleman has been organising in various parts of the country to promote housing development, I trust he will impress on local authorities the value of this Act in that it can be applied not only in rural areas, but by boroughs and towns.
    The CHAIRMAN: I must again draw the hon. Member's attention to the fact that he is going outside the question under discussion. All we are discussing is whether the Act should be extended for five years.
    Sir K. WOOD: On a point of Order. I take it there would be no objection to hon. Members adducing reasons in support of passing this particular Clause and why it should be extended?
    The CHAIRMAN: Not as long as they keep to the five years.
    Major COLVILLE: I have great pleasure in supporting an extension of the Act for five years because I think it is a Measure which can be used very wisely and widely. It is not an Act, as

    1149
    some people imagine, which is confined to rural workers in remote districts, because it applies to people who are described in the Act as "persons whose economic condition is substantially the same" as such workers, and it may be extended if local authorities understand that it can be applied to workers not only in the agricultural industry but to those in a similar economic position. I hope I am in order in asking that the right hon. Gentleman will impress upon local authorities the wide field to which this excellent. Conservative Act may be applied.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I desire to support the arguments that have been put before the Committee by the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles (Major Colville), and I speak as the representative of an urban constituency, and as one who is not a Scotsman. In one of his rare intrusions into our Debates the right hon. Gentleman for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) showed a rather unholy desire to consult and combine with the Secretary of State for Scotland in promoting a Bill of this kind. I want to consult with you, Mr. Chairman. I am a new Member to what has been called a Council of State, and I am greatly disturbed how to reconcile the theory of the Council of State with the previous attitude of the Secretary of State.
    The CHAIRMAN: That certainly has nothing to do with, the Clause.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I apologise. I was consulting with you on that point, and I am glad to have had your Ruling. It seems to me that this unanimity on this matter is highly dangerous from the point of view of the House of Commons. Surely a Bill of this kind should not be passed by the billing und cooing of the two Front Benches, and I feel that the secret agreement between the right hon. Member for West Woolwich and the Secretary of State to give facilities for this Bill is not doing justice to hon. Members on this side who sit for urban constituencies and who are anxious to save money. We have had no information or instruction from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health, who is in a sort of purdah, upon which we can form a decision. I remember the great speeches which the hon. Lady made against the provisions of the previous
    1150
    Measure, and surely I am in order in asking why this extraordinary change of mind has taken place.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member can ask that question at the appropriate time, but he cannot ask it on Clause 1.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I bow to your Ruling, and I hope the hon. Lady on a future occasion will explain the extraordinary change of mind which has occurred since she opposed the Bill brought in a few years ago.
    12 m.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: On the whole I can support the Clause. I have read it very carefully. In this Clause we have the words:
    "Subject to the provisions of any amending scheme made by a local authority."
    Those are words which the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) said he did not understand and I would not like to guarantee that I understand them. May I ask whether they will enable the Government, either in England or in Scotland, to deal with a recalcitrant authority, that is an authority which is not putting the Act into force. When you are extending the Act for five years it may be possible to deal with what is really the one flaw in the Act. That one flaw is that whereas certain places are administering satisfactorily the powers they have, others are dormant, and in a period of five years it would be possible to deal with the dormant local authorities. We want the local authorities to deal with this matter over a wide scale, and if the period named in the Clause were less than five years they might not enter into the matter very heartily. I want to see the Government nailed down to this good work for five years. The Secretary of State for Scotland is a convert in this matter, and I trust him, but the Minister of Health is rather hike-warm. We had an example the other day of how the scheme is working in Scotland. Counties like my own are working the scheme well in England. Has the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health any information to show that the recalcitrant counties are going to work this scheme more thoroughly in the future? One need is to consider the community section by section. The Clause deals

    1151
    only with the agricultural community, but if people are to be encouraged to go back to the land it is essential steadily to reorganise the whole of the countryside, and that this is to be done should be made known. It should not be made possible for any local authority to say, "We shall do a bit this year, but the rest of the houses in the district will not be taken in hand." We want to tell these agricultural people that it is really a definite plan going on right into the future. We do not want any Amendment moved by hon. Members opposite to cut down this period, because it is essential from the point of view of the agricultural labourer. This Clause is part of a great scheme. We have to look at one particular brick in a building, always remembering the rest of the building. It is essential to remember that the reorganisation of housing in this country has been carried on by both parties, and unless we get this Clause now, it is quite possible that you might throw out of joint something else.
    My hon. Friend the Member for North Paddington (Mr. Bracken) was rather criticising this Clause from the financial point of view. Perhaps he objected to the five years, but I do not think it is really a waste of money having this Clause for a long time and carrying on this Act, because there has been absolutely no hint of any waste of money anywhere, and it would be a waste of money if you did not carry this thins out properly. Therefore, my hon. Friend need not be afraid. I represent a far more intelligent and far better urban authority than he does, and far more advanced in every way, and they would not take the line that he does.
    Mr. BRACKEN: I wonder if the hon. Member would give us the figures for five years, with such appropriate comments upon them as may occur to him?
    Mr. WILLIAMS: That is what I was coming to, and that is what I do not think we have had. I was going to ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he could give us some estimate of what houses he thinks are to be completed—
    The CHAIRMAN: The Act of Parliament to which this Clause relates only deals with the assistance given by local
    1152
    authorities and with the Government contribution to the expenses.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Can I not ask what the Government contribution would be during the five years?
    The CHAIRMAN: I do not know whether it would be possible to say.
    Sir K. WOOD: On it, point of Order. I submit that my hon. Friend is entitled on this Clause, which seeks an extension of five years, to ask the Government the number of houses which they anticipate will be assisted by means of this extension and, secondly, for any further information as to their plans as a result of this extension.
    The CHAIRMAN: The Section with which we are dealing has to do with the power of local authorities to make grants, and I presume that the local authorities must act first and that the Government could only give assistance on the expenditure that they might make.
    Sir K. WOOD: On the point of Order. I may say that from time to time the Ministry of Health in England have, in their annual report, shown the number of houses that have received assistance, first, by way of State grants to the local authority and, secondly, by the contributions which the local authorities have themselves made. Clause 1 of this Bill seeks to extend the particular Section which you have quoted, and—
    The CHAIRMAN: Is this a point of Order?
    Sir K. WOOD: Yes, Sir Robert, That Section enables the Government to make a grant to local authorities under certain conditions, by which a house may be renovated and repaired, and under that Section the local authorities submit schemes to the Government, and the Government say whether or not they will approve them and make a contribution. Therefore, I submit that under these circumstances it is a proper question to ask that before the Government obtain the sanction of this House to that extension, they should at any rate endeavour to forecast how far they think this particular provision is likely to be utilised by the local authorities.
    The CHAIRMAN: I think that that is all problematical.
    Sir K. WOOD: May I submit that the mere fact that the matter may he problematical does not in fact in any way prevent the Government from giving a reasonable forecast of what is likely to be obtained? In any other Bill of this kind, so far from the matter being disposed of by its being said that it is problematical, the Government in fact under the Rules of our House, have to give some estimate of what financial provision may be necessary, and obviously they have to forecast the number of houses which will be receiving financial provision.
    The CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman realises that Section 2 lays down the conditions under which financial assistance for houses will be allowed and whether grants will be paid or will not be paid. I fail to see how you could have any estimate of that nature at this stage, beyond that given in the Financial Memorandum.
    Sir K. WOOD: May I respectfully submit, further, that I do not think the Chair can be fully appraised of the scheme under this particular provision? The Government came to the House to ask for this particular Act of Parliament to be extended for five years. They had to do that on a Financial Resolution, and in that Financial Resolution they had to estimate what they anticipated—
    The CHAIRMAN: There really is no such thing in the Financial Resolution. I will read the Resolution:
    "That it is expedient to amend the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926, by extending by five years the period within which applications for assistance under that Act may be received by the local authorities."
    There is nothing at all about finance there.
    Sir K. WOOD: I regret that I have not explained myself sufficiently. It was not in the terms of the Financial Resolution, hut on the first page of the Bill—
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Miss Lawrence): On a point of Order.
    Sir K. WOOD: There can be no point of Order when I myself am submitting a
    1154
    point of Order. I am submitting that in the explanation which the Government gave in support of the Financial Resolution they gave an estimate of what is really to be expended under this Act in the next five years. They did that by referring to the amount of money expended in the last five years, and gave a forecast of the amount likely to be expended; and as that has been done I say it is perfectly proper to ask what they anticipate will be the number of houses built in future.
    The CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman misconstrues the Bill altogether. The Bill is for the purpose of extending the time within which applications for assistance may be made. You cannot calculate with accuracy what assistance may be asked in the extended time, and therefore the question of money does not arise on this particular Clause. That should have been raised on the Financial Resolution.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: There is a reference here to Government contributions, and I wish to know whether we can have any information as to the basis on which those contributions are to be made.
    The CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Member will refer to the original Act he will find the basis of contribution.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I wanted it brought out because I was not quite sure that I could get hon. Members opposite to vote for the particular Clause with which we are dealing. Now you have pointed it out, I think I can manage that all right, and I will go on to another point. This is really a very important one. When we have been talking about five years, one or two hon. Members have shown signs of thinking that this had something to do with Russia. May I assure them that it has not.
    The CHAIRMAN: Observations like that are quite unnecessary in connection with this Clause.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Of course, I willingly accept your Ruling on that point. I was only going to assure the Committee that the five-year condition is an essential backbone of the Clause. Another reason why the Clause should be approved is that both the great political parties have now shown by their actions that they feel

    1155
    there is nothing in the Clause which is unsound. Hon. Members opposite used to regard the proposals as unsound when they were submitted by our party, but now their attitude has changed, and I can invite them to vote for the Clause now for one sound and fundamental reason apart from all other reasons that it is a thoroughly sound Tory Measure.
    Mr. SMITHERS: Axe we to understand that by an extension of this provision for five years we are giving a Socialist Government carte blanche in the spending of money? Is there no estimate of the amount to be expended; is there no limit?
    The CHAIRMAN: I have already explained that the Bill arises out of Sections 2 and 4 of the Act of 1926. The Government are only extending the provisions of that Act and there is no estimate. On the Financial Memorandum there was an estimate to September, 1931. After that much depends on the application of the local authorities.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. William Adamson): I am a little surprised at the amount of discussion which has taken place on this particular portion of the Bill. We have been asked about the number of houses likely to be built. On Second Reading I gave a very full statement of the number of houses built and their cost, and consequently I thought there would have been no need for all these questions. The only point I did not cover, as far as I have been able to gather, was the estimate for the next five years. I can give that in a single sentence. It is 25,100 houses. With that exception I gave full information on Second Reading-The next point with which I wish to deal was raised by a right hon. and learned Member opposite. The Bill automatically extends the scheme in operation until 1936, but every local authority has the power to submit an amending scheme if they so desire. Having explained the two principal points which have been put by those taking part in this discussion, I hope that the Committee will see their way to give us the Committee stage of this Bill.
    Sir THOMAS INSKIP: The right hon. Gentleman expressed some surprise instead of gratification that the Opposition
    1156
    are taking a great interest in his Bill. He really must not think that because the Government chose to force us to sit after Eleven o'clock, night after night, we are to be deprived of the opportunities of asking for information by the ribaldry which is so often shown when we pursue such inquiries. The right hon. Gentleman has, with his accustomed courtesy and clarity, given us the information at the persistence of my right hon. Friend beside me and of my hon. Friend behind me. The right hon. Gentleman says that the information was given on the Second Reading. I am not sure whether his recollection is quite accurate, though I will take it from him that he intended to give it on the Second Beading.
    Mr. ADAMSON: It was given on the Second Reading.
    Sir T. INSKIP: I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says that the information was given on the Second Reading. We are glad to have some information as to what the probable anticipated cost will be. On reflection, we shall all appreciate that it is necessary, in considering the merits of the Bill, to know what the Government contemplate, because here we have the Secretary of State commending this Bill, and the knowledge that he commends it disarms suspicion on all sides of the House. But we have his colleague who is absent here—[Interruption]. Where is his colleague? Yes, he is absent here. Hon. Members opposite do not understand the English language. Here is a Minister professing to support this Bill—his name is on the back of it—who absents himself from the discussions. He, after all, is the Minister who will be responsible for administering this Bill in a part of Great Britain which is wider in extent, if not more important, than Scotland, and it is important for us to know whether the Minister of Health really means to sit down and try to make a success of this Bill. It is not enough for the Secretary of State for Scotland, with his engaging candour, to tell us, as I know he does in all sincerity, that he means to make it a success. We want to know whether the Minister of Health is anxious to make it a success. Now that we have had some little information as to the expenditure contemplated in the next five years, we shall be in a position to

    1157
    hold the Minister of Health to the expectations which he has held out to this House as an inducement to get the Opposition and Members of the House generally to support the Bill. But, after all, it is hon. Members opposite whom he has to convince, more than hon. Members on this side. He has to convert and convince the Parliamentary Secretary to this proposal. The discussion this evening on Clause 1 will have this advantage, that the Parliamentary Secretary will have appreciated that she and her Minister must mend their ways if this Bill is to be made to succeed. We have to use the opportunities which the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule gives us to give a little education on the merits of this Bill to I he Parliamentary Secretary. No doubt she will take advantage of the opportunities we have been so generous in presenting her with to communicate to the Minister of Health the obvious intentions of this Committee and of hon. Members opposite that this Bill should be made a triumphant success. Now that we have had this estimate we are in a position to hope that hon. Members opposite will agree with us in our wholehearted support of this proposal.
    As to the other points he has dealt with regarding the meaning of Subsection (2) of the Clause we are considering I venture to think that the words in question are, at least, a surplusage and unnecessary drafting, because, after all, the Act of 1926, so far as Clause 1 was concerned, provided that schemes were to be submitted by local authorities and the only limitation on the duration of the Bill was contained in Clause 2 (c), which provided that no assistance should be given after 1st October, 1931. If 1st October, 1931, had simply been replaced by 1st October, 1936, then the operation of the Bill would have been automatic, without the introductory words to Clause 2, which seem to me to complicate the Measure. But, as the right hon. Gentleman says it is only to give opportunity to local authorities to submit new proposals, with that elucidation, I hope that we shall have the whole-hearted support of Ministers and back benchers opposite in carrying into effect a measure which it has taken five years to convince them is an admirable Bill, designed in the interests of a class that has been too long neglected. As we have succeeded
    1158
    in that, we hope that a similar process will teach hon. Members opposite that there are a great many merits in many of the proposals for which the last Administration was responsible. I hope we shall all feel that this time has not been wasted and that the Patronage Secretary, whom I see in his place, will take notice that we do not intend that these suspensions of the Eleven o'clock rule shall be abused by hon. Members opposite.

    CLAUSE 2.—(Title and construction.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: Of course, this id only the title of the Bill, but may I refer to the fact that this is a continuation of the policy of the late Government, and say, once again, that I do hope that this Clause will be carried out wholeheartedly?
    The CHAIRMAN: This is the title of the Bill.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: But I hope the Bill will be carried out in the spirit of that title.
    The CHAIRMAN: That is also repetition.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I was only congratulating the Minister on the excellence of the title, and I hope that the whole position will be carried out to the advantage of the rural workers.
    Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

  PALESTINE AND EAST AFRICA LOANS BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
  Clause 1 (Amendment of s. 1 (2) (c) of 16 and 17 Geo. 5. c. 62) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  PALESTINE AND EAST AFRICA LOANS BILL.

    CLAUSE 2.—(Short Title.)
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Dr. Drummond Shiels): I beg to move, in page 1,

    1159
    line 18, after the word "Africa" to insert the word "Loans."
    This Amendment is purely formal and has been caused by a mistake by either the draftsman or the printer in leaving out the word "loans." It is a purely formal matter.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  REGISTRATION AND REGULATION OF OSTEOPATHY BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty-one Minutes before One o'Clock.

  MILITARY FORCES, EUROPE.
  MILITARY FORCES, EUROPE.
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (STRENGTH, LANCASHIRE).
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (STRENGTH, LANCASHIRE).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  FABRIC GLOVE INDUSTRY.
  FABRIC GLOVE INDUSTRY.
  ALLOTMENTS, ISLE OF WIGHT.
  ALLOTMENTS, ISLE OF WIGHT.
  BENEFIT DISALLOWED, SOUTH SHIELDS.
  BENEFIT DISALLOWED, SOUTH SHIELDS.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  COTTON PIECE GOODS (IMPORT).
  COTTON PIECE GOODS (IMPORT).
  BREAD (FLOUR CONTENT).
  BREAD (FLOUR CONTENT).
  AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY (EXPORTS TO RUSSIA).
  AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY (EXPORTS TO RUSSIA).
  FOREIGN TARIFFS.
  FOREIGN TARIFFS.
  SUEZ CANAL COMPANY (ORDERS FOR STORES).
  SUEZ CANAL COMPANY (ORDERS FOR STORES).
  DOMINION WHEAT (IMPORTS).
  DOMINION WHEAT (IMPORTS).
  UGANDA (FISHERY CONCESSION).
  UGANDA (FISHERY CONCESSION).
  SMALL HOLDINGS, SCOTLAND.
  SMALL HOLDINGS, SCOTLAND.
  HOUSING (RENTS).
  HOUSING (RENTS).
NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  WOMEN CONTRIBUTORS.
  WOMEN CONTRIBUTORS.
  APPROVED SOCIETIES (THIRD VALUATIONS).
  APPROVED SOCIETIES (THIRD VALUATIONS).
PUBLIC HEALTH.
  CANCER RESEARCH.
  CANCER RESEARCH.
  IMPORTED FRUIT PULP.
  IMPORTED FRUIT PULP.
  SMALLPOX.
  SMALLPOX.
  VACCINATION.
  VACCINATION.
  TAX COLLECTORS AND ASSESSORS.
  TAX COLLECTORS AND ASSESSORS.

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Monckton (V. Galway)—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PREVENTION OF IMPORTS OF PRODUCTS OF CONVICT OR FORCED LABOUR BILL. [H.L.]
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Lords, I beg to present a Bill to prohibit the importation of products of convict labour or forced labour, and for purposes connected therewith; and to ask your Lordships to read it a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Phillimore.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (ACCRINGTON AND LEICESTER) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
PUBLIC WORKS FACILITIES SCHEME (ACTON SWING BRIDGE) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
ALEXANDER SCOTT'S HOSPITAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (EAST ELLOE JOINT WATER SUPPLY DIS TRICT) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
DAGENHAM URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
TROWBRIDGE, MELKSHAM AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MID SOUTHERN DISTRICT UTILITY BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.

POST OFFICES (SITES) AMENDMENT BILL.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Commons Message.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons message be now considered.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that stands in my name upon the Paper.
Moved, That a Committee of four Lords be appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Commons to consider the said Bill as mentioned in the said Message; and that the said Committee be named by the Committee of Selection.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

SMALL LANDHOLDERS AND AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Department to be entitled to require information]:
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE moved to insert the following new subsection:
"(3) Any information supplied to the Department under this clause shall be treated as confidential, and shall not be disclosed by the Department to third parties without the consent of the landlord."
The noble Earl said: Leases entered into between landlord and tenant are ordinarily their private property and should not be disclosed to anybody. I understand that the Government simply wish to ask for this information with the object of arriving at the fact whether the land which they propose to acquire is suitable for small holdings. The Amendment is not controversial and I hope that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill will be able to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 9, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Earl of Lauderdale.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (EARL DE LA WARR): As the noble Earl says, this Amendment is not a very controversial one, but at the same time we would rather not insert it in the Bill, because at the present moment all information that is gathered by the Department in this manner, or in such manner as is outlined in this Bill, is treated with absolute confidence, and apart from anything else the insertion of this Amendment in the Bill would rather imply that other information, not specified in this Bill, which is going to be gathered by the Department, need not be so treated. At the present moment, as I have said, all this information is treated confidentially and it is therefore unnecessary to insert this Amendment. I hope, therefore, the noble Lord will not press it.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My point is that there is nothing in the Bill which says it is going to be treated confidentially.

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It may be so treated by the present Government, but supposing we have another Government which do not treat it confidentially? I do not think that they should make public such information any more than they make public Income Tax returns. It is a very small point, and not controversial, and I hope the Government will accept the Amendment.
EARL DE LA WARR: I have discussed this matter with my right hon. friend, and he does feel, while he is in full sympathy with the idea underlying the Amendment, that it would be better not to put it in the Bill, for the reason I have given. As your Lordships know, the Department already collects a great deal of this sort of information under various powers, and all of it has always been treated as confidential. Therefore the Amendment is unnecessary, and I hope it will not be pressed.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I am inclined to think that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill is right. The amount of various information which passes through the Department, is so great and so wide, and it has always been deemed to be confidential and has been treated as such, that I feel that if the Amendment is inserted in the Bill it is making a new departure. I should have thought it was really unnecessary, and I suggest to my noble friend that he should not press it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clauses 3 to 7 agreed to.
Clause 8:
Amendment of provisions as to resumption of holdings.
8.—(1) The occupation by a landlord, for the purpose of personally residing thereon, of a holding being his only landed estate, shall not be a reasonable purpose in respect of which the Land Court may authorise resumption by the landlord of a holding.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK moved to leave out subsection (1). The noble Viscount said: The subsection in question provides:
"The occupation by a landlord, for the purpose of personally residing thereon, of a holding being his only landed estate, shall not be a reasonable purpose in respect of which the Land Court may authorise resumption by the landlord of a holding."
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The effect, therefore, of the Amendment which I am now proposing is that, as has happened in the past, the Land Court may allow the resumption by the landlord for the purpose of his personal occupation of a holding which is his only landed estate. Prior to the Act of 1911, that is, under Section 2 of the Act of 1886, resumption could be granted by the Land Court for any reasonable purpose having relation to the good of the holding or of the estate, but the Land Court apparently felt that some definite guidance should be given to them in certain respects, and Section 19 of the Act of 1911 was passed.
That section provided that the resumption of and the occupation by a landlord for the purpose of personally residing on the holding, being his only landed estate, should be deemed a reasonable purpose. The Land Courts have interpreted this section to mean that they are bound to grant resumption for the purpose of personal residence if the holding is the applicant's only landed estate, and that apparently is the reason why subsection (1) of Clause 8 has been inserted in the Bill. The most sensible compromise between these two extremes seems to me to be that the Land Court should have full discretion to refuse or grant the application, whilst taking into consideration any reasonable request for resumption for personal occupation. This clause as it stands, on the contrary, deprives the Land Court of that discretion, and it categorically directs the Court to refuse resumption for personal occupation. It seems that in the House of Commons no compromise could be arrived at. The subsection as it stands is most unfair and unjust, and if it remains as it is landholders' holdings will become practically unsaleable. My noble friend the Duke of Atholl, who is supporting the Amendment, will have further observations to make upon that subject, I am sure.
On referring to the years 1919 to 1929, or to the last three years, I find that the number of cases in which resumption was given for personal occupation was very small indeed. In fact, during the last three years, there have only been eighteen such cases. I submit this Amendment to your Lordships in the belief that it will remove from the Bill a subsection which, as I have stated, is

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most inequitable, and which I cannot help feeling is instigated to some extent by class prejudice. I am sure that it is quite uncalled for by any transgression of the spirit of the Act which now exists, or by any public demand in Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 7, leave out subsection (1).—(Viscount Elibank.)
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I beg to support the Amendment which has been moved by my noble friend. This is not a clause which in any way affects agriculture in Scotland. It does not help the case of the small holders, nor does it affect the generality of proprietors. It is wonderfully mean in its action, and very petty in its conception; and I cannot understand any Party, such as the Labour Party, which stands for, or at all events says it stands for, equity—in other words "A man's a man for a' that"—or the Conservative Party, which also alleges that it stands for justice and equity all round, agreeing to it. In effect, it means that if a man's property is so reduced in one way or another that the last bit of land he has got is no bigger than a small holding, he is to be deliberately prevented from occupying it.
Up to now under existing Acts it has been recognised that it would be a decided hardship if this were to be the case, and it would mean that certain individuals, probably the poorest owners of land in this country, reduced to the status of small holders, would not be allowed to occupy and work the land which they themselves possessed, although it would be open to them to claim to become small holders on someone else's property. Just after the War there were a few cases of this sort, and the Land Court considered that under the Act there was a just claim for resumption. In 1927, however, there were only six cases, and in 1929 there were only three cases. In this Bill it has all been altered, and under this clause a landlord's occupation of a small holding for the purposes of residing thereon is not to be deemed a reasonable purpose in respect of which the Land Court may authorise resumption. I cannot understand any more reasonable reason. Attempts were made in Committee in another place to get a compromise, to the effect that the position that existed
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prior to 1911 should be restored, and that the Land Court should have discretion. That is suggested by my noble friend, and one would have thought it was a reasonable way out of the matter. This, however, has been refused, and we have no alternative now, except to move the rejection of the whole subsection.
I will give a case in point. It is imaginary, but it might quite well happen. Imagine an owner of property, we will say in the Highlands of Scotland. He perhaps fought all through the War, and his people had fought for their country for generations, and were perhaps the owners of the land for hundreds of years. He is so impoverished that he has had to sell the whole of his estate except a small corner. Perhaps he has gone to the Colonies to earn just a little money to enable him to live at home. Is it reasonable to stop such a man coming back to his own home, and telling him that he may not reside upon it? It is perfectly open for him to go and become a small holder, and have another bit of land somewhere else, but he is absolutely debarred from going on the land which is his own. On the other hand, it is not a hardship for a small holder to turn out. He may be a man from outside. He gets full compensation for going, and he can get a small holding again immediately somewhere else.
The proposal in the Bill is absolutely unfair, and I hope your Lordships, for the good of all parties, will strike it out. I believe it was put in some time ago in a one-clause Bill by the Secretary of State for Scotland—probably for some quite different reason, and in different circumstances; but I am quite sure that when it is realised from what I have said, how unjust it is, the Government ought not to oppose this Amendment, or at least should agree to put the clause back as it was on the Report stage in another place. Otherwise, I hope my noble friend will press the Amendment to a Division.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I do not think I was fortunate enough to attract the attention of the noble Earl in charge of the Bill on the Second Reading when I dealt with this portion of it, and therefore I would like to emphasise what I then said. There was a good old Liberal doctrine that nothing adds so much to

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social stability as the wide diffusion of property in small holdings and houses. We have many of us observed its good effects in other countries, comparing them with our own system of larger holdings—which was also very successful in its way—and we have found that that view is a sound one. And one may say in these days of triumphant democracy that there never was a time when social stability was more required, and when it deserved to be more encouraged. The Government, by this clause, are putting a bar in the way of occupying ownership. The cases may not be very numerous, but this is one of the ways in which private ownership is being ended in this country. On a large estate this provision might make the small portion of it which remains, as the noble Duke has just described, quite uninhabitable. It might make it unlettable. It does not often happen, but there are black sheep in every class, and a cantankerous crofter is about as objectionable a neighbour as you could have. The number of possible cases of hardship is infinitesimal, and cases of real hardship could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand within our experience of the sale of crofts and small holdings. They are practically unsaleable now: this would make them absolutely so. I trust that the noble Earl will go to a Division unless the Government give way.
EARL DE LA WARR: With the remarks which have fallen from the lips of noble Lords, opposite it is very difficult to disagree, but at the same time we have to remember that there are two sides to every question. The purpose of this clause is to remove an undoubted grievance that has existed among small holders, and to do away with a danger to their security which has occurred in the past when, we will say in consequence of the break-up of an estate, the holder is confronted with the alternative either of buying or removing himself. Under the existing law if the buyer can show to the Land Court that he has no other landed estate, and that he wishes to occupy the holding himself, the Land Court have no option but to grant an order for the removal of the present occupier. There is no doubt this does make for hardship, and hardship which could be prevented if this subsection is allowed to remain in the Bill.
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Noble Lords opposite have referred to other hardships. One noble Lord mentioned the case of a man who has been away, and who returns and wishes to farm a bit of his own land. If he cannot get a bit of his own land undoubtedly that is bad luck; but it is equally unfortunate—in fact I should say more unfortunate, because after all the returning owner has been away—for a small holder, who has been on the land possibly all his life (possibly his family before him have been there) to be thrown out. The noble Viscount, Lord Novar, referred to another case. He asked: What about the man who has bought a holding and wishes to resume occupation? In the next sentence I think he really answered himself. He asked: Who will buy a farm that he cannot occupy? That is the reply. In fact it will simply mean that anyone who wishes to acquire land will doubtless have to satisfy himself that he is likely to obtain voluntary possession of it afterwards. This Amendment raises a point that was debated at considerable length in another place. On the balance of justice and injustice and of hardship for this man or that I think there is very little doubt that the clause as it stands really meets the demands of the situation. I hope, therefore, in spite of what the noble Viscount said, that your Lordships will not decide to delete the subsection.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: What is the objection to leaving it to the discretion of the Land Court?
EARL DE LA WARE: That still leaves the position one of uncertainty. I think that is really the reply.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: In other words, it will be loaded against the landlord but it is to be in favour of the other. There is to be no idea of equity. Is that the idea?
EARL DE LA WARR: No.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I do not think the reply of the noble Earl on behalf of the Government is at all satisfactory. He advanced an entirely new theory of ownership. He might as well have said that if he owns a house and rents that house to some one that person should have the right to remain in the house whether the owner wishes to resume occupation of it or not. That is the doctrine

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he is applying to land. It is an entirely new doctrine in this country, so far as I know, except amongst a few, and it is a doctrine which savours very largely, if not wholly, of confiscation. I do not agree that the reply of the noble Earl however conciliatory it might be, is one which I can accept, and I am sure that noble Lords who are acting with me in this matter would not be prepared to accept it. If the noble Earl could see his way on the Report stage to propose some Amendment which would provide for the discretion of the Land Court being brought into play, as suggested by my noble friend the Duke of Atholl, we might be prepared on this side to consider not pressing the Amendment now. If the noble Earl will not do that we have no option but to go to a Division and see what the result of it may be.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I listened to the reply of the noble Earl opposite and I regretted that he seemed somewhat uncompromising in his attitude towards the Amendment. I should have thought this Amendment was a very reasonable one indeed. My noble friends who have spoken to it have put forward the points in its favour and I venture to think that an unanswerable case has been made. I am not really clear why the Government are determined to resist the Amendment unless it is due to the continual antipathy which they seem to have towards the class of individual known as the landlord. The case made against the subsection is, to my mind, a very strong one. The subsection means that in no circumstances whatsoever can the owner of a particular piece of land resume the ownership of that land. After all, the only thing that is claimed in the Amendment is that if some reasonable case is brought forward it shall be decided by the Land Court. I should have thought no more reasonable suggestion could be made, and I am bound to say that if my noble friends decide that this is an Amendment on which a Division should be taken I shall be very happy to support them in the Lobby.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD PARMOOR): I have been listening to the very interesting discussion which has taken place on this matter. Would it suit the views of the noble Viscount who moved the Amendment and the Duke of Atholl who suggested
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a compromise to let this matter stand over in order that the course suggested should be considered? I am sure it would have favourable consideration, and I think that was rather the view of the noble Marquess. If we could arrive at a compromise on what appears to have a good deal to be said for it I think that would be a right method of procedure. If it could stand over now in order that the point might be considered later I think that would be the best plan.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I understand that we shall have an opportunity of dividing against it if it is not satisfactory on the Report stage?
LORD PARMOOR: Certainly.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: That would enable one to put down the same Amendment on Report stage in case the compromise is not a satisfactory one?
LORD PARMOOR: Certainly.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: In those circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment. Will the Government put an Amendment on the Paper?
LORD PARMOOR: I understood when I made the suggestion that the Amendment would come from your side. I do not think it much matters, but that is the suggestion which I understood to be made.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 13 agreed to.
Clause 14:
Option to statutory small tenant to become landholder.
14. In the Landholders' Acts the word "holding" shall, in addition to the holdings mentioned in Section two of the Act of 1911, include as from the date hereinafter mentioned every holding which at the commencement of this Act is held by a statutory small tenant and the word "landholder" shall he construed accordingly:
Provided that this section shall not apply in the case of any statutory small tenancy unless, not later than one month prior to the expiry of the period of tenancy current at the commencement of this Act or of any subsequent period of tenancy, the tenant serves on the landlord of the holding written notice that he desires that this section shall apply, and the date hereinbefore referred to shall be the expiry of the period of tenancy current when such notice was served.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved to leave out Clause 14. The noble Viscount said: Under the Landholders' Acts procedure the fixtures, in fact if not in law, are the landlords. The statutory small tenant becoming a small landowner would naturally apply for lowered rent and compensation for upkeep of fixtures belonging to the owner. There is no reason why he should uphold them. They are not his. He can get no compensation for them. And the owner has no power to keep them up as the tenant has a free hand. Some deduction may become due to the outgoing small landholder. I dealt with this point on Second Beading and I quoted the Minister's speech on the Committee stage of the Bill in another place, in which he said that there had not been a single application for this change in the law; no one had asked for it.
Part II of the Bill gives the statutory small landholder further rights. He is the man who has all these buildings and fixtures provided for him by the landlord like any other tenant. By this clause as soon as the statutory small tenant becomes a landholder he can assign his holding. Why should he assign buildings which are not his and for which he never paid, and claim compensation for any other fixtures he may choose to make without any consent of the owner? The Land Committee reported that the crofting experiment initiated by the Act of 1911 had not been a success in the Lowlands and should not be extended, as it will be by this clause. The Government act in the teeth of the recommendation of that Committee, and refuse to add, like their predecessors I may say, far more important recommendations, such as the rating of small holdings and other subjects. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 14.—(Viscount Novar.)
EARL DE LA WARR: I think the history of the clause is, as the noble Lord has just stated it to be, that it is the result of a compromise in another place. A certain section in another place wished to insert a clause saying that all statutory small tenants should be declared landholders, and, as the noble Lord quite rightly said, my right hon. friend the Secretary of State was by no means convinced that
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there was a very great demand for this. However, after discussion, I think he was impressed with the fact that there was undoubtedly some demand, and, therefore, it was agreed to insert this clause giving the option for transfer from one status to another. I think it is a reasonable proposal. If, as the noble Lord says, there really is no demand for such provisions as are in this clause, then it will not be utilised. At the same time, I think your Lordships would agree that if there is a demand it is quite right there should be the option.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I cannot quite follow the argument of the noble Earl who has just spoken. He talks about compromise in another place; but compromise on what? The other day the noble Earl said he was dealing with principles in this Bill. I cannot quite see where the principle enters in this, a matter which is certainly not to the good of agriculture. But apparently there was a bargain between His Majesty's Government and certain people who held the whip hand. They knew it was wrong; they did not like this clause a bit; but, because they had their tails twisted, they had to compromise on what they knew was wrong. That is the position as I understand it, and I put it that way in no offensive spirit. People do get into awkward places, and have to be grateful to those who help them out With regard to Clause 14, personally I have considered every sort of Amendment to see if it was possible to make it in any way acceptable to agricultural opinion in these areas, and after all it is agriculture that matters, or ought to matter, in an Agricultural Bill.
This Bill is supposed to be a Bill amending existing legislation, but we find slipped into it a clause which would put the whole of Scotland, including the South of Scotland, than which there is no finer agricultural area in the world under the Crofting Acts, and under a system which is not the best, and I am certain not one which is in the interests of agriculture, as apart from politics. No one, no matter whether he may be a proprietor, or farmer, or ploughman, is in the least anxious to see such a thing happen as is proposed in this clause. The statutory small holders are infinitely better off than they would be if they were landholders; in other

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words, crofters. In the case of the statutory small holders the buildings are put up and maintained by the landlord, and an annual rent is paid for them. That is very much better for the tenant, as he has not to waste his money on any kind of buildings, and has, therefore, more capital with which to stock his farm and make a profit than he would have if he were a crofter where he would be responsible for his own buildings.
In ninety-nine out of one hundred cases in the South of Scotland, in the non-crofting areas, the landlord has himself made the buildings and improvements, whereas in the crofting areas the buildings and improvements are mainly made by the crofter, and, as the great majority are as I have described, it seems absurd to bring in a Bill for a very small minority which could be dealt with quite easily in any way under ordinary arbitration, under the special Act that exists for the two cases. It seems absurd to change the whole system in Scotland for a very few people who might come under the hardship that the noble Lord has just told us of. The crofter in the North generally wishes to stay on his holding for ever, and has other kinds of work to go to, such as fishing, at odd seasons. The small holder in the South, on the other hand, very often wants to make his start in agriculture on an ascending scale by commencing on a small holding and gradually building up, and by this suggestion you tend to a great extent to stop that.
If this clause passes, agriculture in the South will be put back to the conditions that obtain in the North, and in any case, if this clause becomes law, there would be, I think, a hopeless muddle over compensation, for on the statutory small tenant becoming a small holder there may be some buildings which he has made himself, but the greater proportion would be the property of the landlord. Repairs would be made by the small holder who would, of course, have to keep up the buildings, but the premises would definitely belong to the landlord, actually as well as legally. There is not a single case, so far as I know, of anybody representing farming interests having asked for this clause, which was put in by pressure, I believe, from one individual who makes politics
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more his hobby than anything else. The noble Earl told us that there was a great want for this clause in the South, or at any rate a desire for it, and that, therefore, there ought to be a compromise, but I would ask him to pay attention to the following statement made by the Secretary for Scotland, now Lord Privy Seal:
"I have had no letter of recommendation from a solitary statutory small tenant in Scotland. I have had no evidence and I know of no hon. member who has any evidence that they desire this change. Last year when the previous Bill was going through, we did have letters, speaking from recollection about fifteen or so, from statutory small tenants who took the trouble to write to us and say that they did not want this change. The change would not be beneficial to them and they did not desire it."
Why does the noble Earl bring in this clause which nobody wants? Perhaps he will explain to me what the reason is.
From the proprietor's point of view it is objectionable to bring in two forms of land holding on his estate. It would prevent the circulation of smaller tenants to the larger farms, and in the event of a small holder being unable to work his holding through illness, old age or infirmity, he would be able to assign his holding to someone else. That is all right where a man has made the buildings himself, but why should a person who is no longer able to keep the holding have the power to assign to another the right of occupying buildings which are not his, and for which he has never paid a single penny? That is not the way to encourage people. So personally, if the noble Karl still adheres to the reply he has given, I shall support the noble Viscount if he goes to a Division.
EARL DE LA WARR: May I add one or two words to what has already been said? I think the noble Duke in his speech very largely answered his own case. During the greater part of his speech he was engaged in telling us how few people wanted this alteration. As it is purely a permissive clause, only giving an option, why should the noble Duke mind its being given, if he is so sure that nobody is going to take advantage of it? The noble Duke made a quotation from the speech of my right hon. friend in another place. That speech was delivered upon a different clause from this one. It

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was delivered, I think the noble Duke will find—I speak subject to correction—in regard to a clause which altered automatically the status of the statutory small tenant to that of landholder. He was not replying to the clause which simply gives an option.
The noble Duke asked: Why make this change in the general law for a very few people confined to certain areas? There again I make the same reply. This is not a change in the general law. It is merely the giving of a permissive power to those parts of the country that wish to use it. It leaves all his friends in the South—whom the noble Duke is convinced do not want it—free not to make use of it. I hope, therefore, noble Lords will not press this opposition to a clause which does give a right, which we understand a number of people—I cannot tell your Lordships how many, possibly not a great many—would desire to use.
LORD CLINTON: The noble Earl in his reply used the rather curious expression "if there is a demand" the option to take over should be given. Does that really mean that if somebody, some day, somewhere, wants to have leave to erect buildings that do not belong to him, therefore as a matter of policy it should be given? He regards this as a very small change. It is a very large change. It effects the system of land tenure of all these statutory small tenants. They already have many advantages not given to the small holders. Except for this advantage the whole of these people are in the same position not only in Scotland but throughout England. If this clause is passed and the Government are able to lay down that any smallholder may take over for himself, not the legal ownership but the rental value of the buildings, how can they resist a demand from all over the Kingdom? I say that this is a very important change in land tenure which I hope your Lordships will not allow.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: There is one point which I would like to raise. This clause was not in the original Bill. It is quite obvious that when the Bill was introduced the Government did not think it necessary or even desirable. It was resisted on the Committee stage in another place, and according to my noble friend on my right—and I have no doubt that he is correct—it was only inserted
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in the interests of a small section. There has been really no case made out for it. There has been nothing to show why the Government changed their views from their first position when they thought it unnecessary. In the greater part of Scotland, except in the Highlands, landowners provide all equipment. This Bill gives an option to the tenant to take over equipment if he likes and to be put in the position of a crofter. I believe there have been certain grievances in the North where tenants have erected some of the buildings themselves. It would be perfectly easy to put in some provision by which any tenants who have erected buildings themselves on statutory small holdings would be able to obtain compensation, but to alter the whole law, for which there is no demand whatever, and for which no demand has been shown by anyone except one or two members in another place, I think is most undesirable; and, as I would point out again, it was not the intention of the Government when they introduced the Bill. It is an entirely new clause brought in on Report.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Clause 16:
Amendments of s. 7 of Act of 1911.
16.—(1) The subsection which is by Section nine of the Act of 1919 directed to be substituted for subsection (9) of Section seven of the Act of 1911 (which requires notice of intention to prepare a scheme to be given to the landlord of land to be comprised therein), shall be amended by the substitution in paragraph (a) of the proviso of the words "twelve months" for the words "six months."
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved to leave out subsection (1). The noble Duke said: Since putting down this Amendment I have learned that the Scottish Office feels that it is absolutely necessary to take twelve months instead of six in which to prepare a scheme on account of the multiplicity of interests involved, forms to be filled up, people to be consulted and so on. It is certainly not a very good advertisement for the ability of a Government Department in speeding up things, but they seem to think twelve months necessary to have a complete scheme rather than take six months for a half-baked scheme. I can only say that I think when this hardy annual

1135
comes up again, just as now we find six months extended to twelve so we shall find twelve months extended to eighteen, and so on. As a landlord will be debarred from letting his holding for twelve months instead of six months, and thereby have his losses doubled, I want to be assured that the landlord will not be penalised, and that he will have the same rights for twelve months as he would have for six months in the way of compensation, of course pro rata. I understand that that is the case, but I would like to have an assurance given in your Lordships' House by the noble Earl opposite. If that is given I will not press the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 6, leave out subsection (1).—(The Duke of Atholl)
EARL DE LA WARR: I thank the noble Duke for offering to withdraw the Amendment. On the point of compensation I can certainly give him the assurance he requires. Rights of compensation will be in no way prejudiced.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 agreed to.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved, after Clause 16, to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of s. 11 of Act of 1911.
". Section eleven of the Act of 1911 (which relates to obligations of new holders under Public Health Act) shall be amended by inserting after the words 'have been erected on a holding' the words 'by a landholder or'."
The noble Viscount said: I move the insertion of this new clause as an Amendment of the Act of 1911. It is not very easy to follow, but that is one of the results of legislating by reference. A nominal landlord should not be made responsible for public health requirements. That is provided for by this new clause. He is not responsible for the buildings and has no say in their erection. This Bill would impose larger and more excessive obligations on a large owner than an occupying owner, especially as regards water supply. I can give your Lordships an example. I was instructed by a board in Edinburgh to introduce water to five small holdings. The rentals were £18 and the cost of putting in the water would have been £400. I had to sell two of these small holdings before I was relieved of the
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obligation to put in a water supply costing £400. As soon as two small occupying owners came in there was no more said about water supply.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 16 insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Novar.)
EARL DE LA WARR: Section 11 of the Act of 1911 enacts that where buildings have been erected on a holding for a new holder liabilities under the Public Health Act in respect of nuisances or of the provision of a water supply shall rest on the landholder, and not on the landlord so long as he receives no rent for the buildings. The object of this Amendment is to extend this provision so as to apply to all landholders and not merely to new landholders; that is, people whose holdings were constituted after the 1911 Act came into operation. I think the noble Viscount will agree with my statement of the case. The Amendment would not be unreasonable as regards buildings which are erected in the future. If the landholder puts up a building without the consent, or possibly even against the will of a landlord, it seems only right that the landlord should not have to incur any responsibility under the Public Health Act in respect of that building, seeing that the transaction is entirely beyond his control. It makes no difference to this question whether the holding became a small holding on April 1, 1912, by virtue of the Act of 1911 coming into operation, or was constituted a small holding thereafter.
In regard to the noble Viscount's Amendment, it would apply, as it stands, to buildings already in existence. I think your Lordships and the noble Viscount will see that this really does raise a difficulty, because, as regards such buildings, the liability is on the landlord now. It was imposed on him when the lease was made and was taken into account in fixing a fair rent. If, therefore, the clause in the form which the noble Viscount suggests were applied to these buildings, the effect would be to transfer to the landholder an obligation now resting on the landlord, and there would be no means of making any adjustment to balance that transfer until the arrival of the next term when the rent would be reviewed, which in some cases might be seven years or so. It seems to me that, bearing in mind the point to which I have already referred, it would be better

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if the noble Viscount were prepared to withdraw this Amendment, and we might discuss the point with him, as we should be quite ready to do, between now and the next stage.
THE EARL or ANCASTER: I put my name to this Amendment for a reason which is easily explained. As both noble Lords who have spoken on the subject have pointed out, the question is a difficult and complicated one, and I do not pretend that I thoroughly understand it. What I should like to be assured of, if the Government can help us on this point, is in regard to cases where premises have been erected without the landlord having anything to do with it or being liable in any way, as a great many crofts have been erected in Scotland by people who live in them. In such cases, where the Landlord has had no chance of conforming to the requirements of the medical officer of health for the district, it seems rather hard that he should be attacked and should have to pay to have these places put into a sanitary condition. I think that is the point. Where the landlord has put up a house and has not made proper sanitary arrangements, and the medical officer complains that the result is a nuisance, then the landlord would probably have to do the work, but where the landlord has not erected the building, it is a little hard that he should be called upon to make good the delinquencies of somebody else. I think the point ought to be made perfectly clear in the Bill.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: As I understand it, the new clause proposed by my noble friend simply means that, whoever the party may be that has erected buildings or made certain additions to them, that person is responsible to the public health authorities for such buildings complying with the public health regulations. If the landlord has put up the buildings, then it is only right that he should be responsible for their compliance with the regulations made by the public health authorities, but if, on the other hand, the building is erected on the small holding by the tenant on his own initiative, without the consent of the landlord, it is surely only right that, during the period in which the buildings are in the occupation of the tenant, the tenant should be responsible, not only for complying with the views of the local
1138
health authorities, but also for maintaining the buildings in a proper sanitary condition. It would hardly be fair to ask any landlord to father a scheme in which this is not provided for; it is hardly reasonable to make the landlord responsible for a building over which he has no control and which he has not erected; and it would be wrong not to make the tenant responsible. Otherwise you will get the tenants putting up anything they like.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I am afraid I cannot respond to the request of the noble Earl opposite. I can conceive of no more flagrant injustice than to make a man responsible for the water supply and sanitary convenience of a house belonging to somebody else. There can be no hardship in the man to whom the buildings belong being obliged to do so and, if the local authorities see fit to make objection, it ought to remain a question between the owner and themselves. I very much regret the concession made on this side on Clause 8. I thought it ought to have been insisted upon, leaving it to the noble Earl to bring up any compromise he desired on Report. I think that this had better be done in this case, and I am afraid I must put your Lordships to the trouble of a Division. If the noble Earl has anything to bring up on Report he can do so.
LORD PARMOOR: I do not think the offer made by the noble Earl has been altogether appreciated. Where holdings have been created with liabilities of a certain character between the landowner and the tenant, these have had to be considered in fixing a fair rent when the agreement, is made. They are existing obligations as between the two parties. What the noble Earl has suggested is that in the future, as regards the obligations between the two parties, the matter should be altered in the way which the noble Viscount has suggested. I should have thought that this was perfectly equitable as between the landowner and the tenant. It certainly would be so in my part of the country, but I do not know the Scottish principle. You fix the rent on conditions as they exist and, if you want them altered for the future, you can do it. I think the suggestion of alteration in the future is very reasonable.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I do not think the noble and learned Lord opposite quite understands the position. I will give one instance. On certain land the Department of Agriculture erected byres which did not fulfil the local bylaws approved by the medical officer of health. Suppose that had been done by somebody else, who had erected such buildings on the land of an owner who had nothing to say in the matter but who, under the Bill, would probably be called upon by the medical officer to put the byres right. Where a Government erects buildings that will not meet the by-laws there is no protection whatever, and private persons are still more likely to offend in this particular. In that case the owner would be responsible. I think it is seasonable that whoever has erected the buildings, whether it be a Government Department, a small holder or a landowner, should be responsible for putting them in proper sanitary order.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Lord and I suffer under the same disability that we are not very familiar with the law regarding these matters in Scotland, but I cannot help thinking that my noble friends behind me have made out a very strong case, which has hardly been answered from the Front Bench opposite. I venture to suggest to the noble Earl in charge of the Bill that the Amendment might be inserted in the Bill at this stage, and that between now and the next stage various deliberations and negotiations could take place for settling this matter. I hardly think, from what I understood from the noble Earl's speech, that he was fully aware that there was an element of injustice in the Bill as he proposes that it should go forward, and I think it is quite possible that the Scottish Office
and my noble friends behind me could consider this matter between now and the next stage of the Bill, and arrange words which could be inserted on Report. I agree with my noble friend Lord Novar that it would be unwise at this stage of the Bill not to insert words which are reasonable words and which would carry out the sentiment which has been urged on this side very forcibly and eloquently. Then, after negotiations, the noble Earl might bring forward words which would suit the case equally well.
EARL DE LA WARR: I would say this, that when the Government admit there is point in an Amendment, but point out that the Amendment as proposed to be applied is not equitable, because it would make this clause retrospective in its effect, I do think that the noble Viscount might withdraw that Amendment. I hope that noble Lords opposite will not take advantage too much of the fact that a, great many of us in this House do not know too much about Scottish law, but when the Government admit frankly that there is a certain justice in this point, I think we are justified in asking the noble Viscount to withdraw his Amendment.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I have already informed the noble Earl that I was unable to withdraw the Amendment. I do not know why an injustice should be sacred merely because some clause might be made retrospective. It is a most extraordinary argument to use, and I must ask the Government either to accept the Amendment or divide upon it.
On Question, Whether the said new clause shall be there inserted?
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 47; Not-Contents, 8.

CONTENTS.

Sutherland, D.

Midleton, E.

Addington, L.

Peel, E.

Annaly, L.

Zetland, M.

Stanhope, E.

Banbury of Southam, L.

Strange. E. (D. Atholl.)

Clinton, L. [Teller]

Abingdon, E.

Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kincardine.)

Ancaster, E.

Yarborough, E.

Breadalbane and Holland, E.

Ellenborough, L.

Denbigh, E.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Elphinstone, L.

Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

Burnham, V.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Churchill, V.

Forester, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Elibank, V.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Lucan, E.

Hailsham, V.

Jessel, L.

Mar and Kellie, E.

Novar, V. [Teller.]

Joicey, L.

Lamington, L.

Phillimore, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Leigh, L.

Rayleigh, L.

Newton, L.

Saltoun, L.

Templemore, L.

Oxenfoord, L. (E. Stair.)

Sempill, L.

Wharton, L.

Sinclair, L.

Wynford, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor.)

De La Warr, E.

Marley, L. [Teller.]

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L

Parmoor, L. (L. President.)

Dickinson, L.

Snell, L.

Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.) [Teller.]

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved, after Clause 16, to insert the following new clause:—
Amendment of s. 32 of Act of 1911.
".The following paragraph shall be substituted for paragraph (4) of Section thirty-two of the Act of 1911:—
"(4) Except in any case where the landlord satisfies the Land Court that there is reasonable ground of objection to a statutory small tenant (hereinafter in this section referred to as the tenant) and the Land Court find accordingly, the tenant for the time being, unless he has himself by notice or letter of removal intimated to the landlord that he is to renounce his tenancy shall, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, be entitled on any determination of the tenancy to a renewal thereof on the terms and conditions hereinafter specified."
The noble Viscount said: This again is an Amendment of a section of another Act, namely Section 32 of the Act of 1911. It is designed to prevent a statutory small holder from backing out of his notice to quit. A tenant now has a right to vacate his holding and give a notice to quit and then go back upon it, which is often very disturbing to the owner of the estate. A tenant in one case intimated on May 10, 1930, that he was to vacate his holding at Whitsuntide, 1931. The landlord replied accepting his notice as sufficient. On July 25, 1930, the tenant made a verbal offer, which was refused. Upon getting that refusal he informed the landlord at the same interview that he was not desirous of renewing his tenancy, as he was getting a farm on another estate. His wife, however, intervened, asking for a written statement of the proprietor's terms, which were given in due course. To that letter the tenant made no reply of any kind. When the proprietor had advertised the place in
1142
January, 1931, and was taking in offers on the expressly stated condition that the existing tenant was not to be an offerer, the tenant informed inquirers that he was not through with the place, thus prejudicing the bona fides of the proprietor with the inquirers. He then made an offer through his law agent on the last day advertised for taking in offers, and accompanied it with a threat that, failing its acceptance, he would apply to the Land Court. The offer was refused, because better offers had been received. As the matter now stands, the proprietor cannot let the holding except to the tenant, who is not a desirable tenant, and whose offer was in the circumstances unacceptable, and he has to wait for developments.
The effect of the Amendment is that if a tenant, after giving a notice to quit, changes his mind, and withdraws, he must do so not leis than six months before the end of the tenancy. This gives a landlord six months in which to find a new tenant, and it also gives the tenant six months in which to reconsider his, notice to quit. It is an Amendment that is very favourable to the tenant. This kind of thing gives a good deal of trouble. I remember a case in which the Board of Agriculture intimated that a farm was not to be let, and it was not till six weeks before the term that permission was given to let the farm, which meant that it had to be let offhand to whoever would take it, unless the landlord took it over himself. Nothing could be much worse for decent estate management than to have public Departments and tenants acting in this kind of way.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 16 insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Novar.)
EARL DE LA WARR: As things are, statutory small tenants are entitled to a

1143
renewal of their tenancy except where the landlord satisfies the Land Court that there is reasonable objection. In this Amendment it is suggested to add the words "unless he"—that is, the tenant—"has himself by notice or letter of removal intimated to the landlord that he is to renounce his tenancy." Are these words really necessary? If the tenant has given notice that he wishes to quit, he has thereby entitled the landlord to commit himself with another party. He has entitled the landlord to enter into negotiations with another party for a new lease. Surely, this is a circumstance which it is for the Land Court to deal with in considering the case when the matter is brought before it. Therefore I suggest that this point is already quite satisfactorily covered by the Bill.
LORD LAMINGTON: I do not think the noble Earl's answer meets the concrete case put by my noble friend, in which a tenant withdraws his notice to give up a farm and leaves insufficient time for the landlord to find a new tenant.
EARL DE LA WARR: My answer was specifically directed to that point. It showed that, under the Bill, if the landholder, that is, the tenant, has given notice that he wishes to quit, then he has entitled the landlord to enter into negotiations with another party for release, and that is a matter which, undoubtedly, will have to be taken into account by the Land Court. Apart from that, I think the noble Viscount will find that his words are rather contradictory, because first he says, "unless he has himself by notice or letter of removal intimated to the landlord that he is to renounce his tenancy," and then he leaves in the words "notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary." Those two phrases are directly contradictory. But that is only a drafting point.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I do not know that I quite follow the noble Earl's argument, but this I would put, that the tenant at any rate should not have the right to withdraw his notice to quit within six months of the time when he quits his farm so as to enable the estate owner to provide another tenant; and if the noble Earl cannot agree to that I am afraid I shall have to ask the House to divide.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I have listened to the debate, and I would really suggest to the noble Viscount that these are matters which can be discussed quite easily between the Scottish Office and the representatives of the Scottish Peers in this House. I would really make this appeal to him, that he would delay his activity on this point until we come to the Report stage, and if no compromise can be reached in the meantime that would be the occasion to raise the matter.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I do not know whether the noble Marquess has had any experience of trying to convince the Scottish Office of the desirability of making concessions. I remember that the noble Marquess who led the House on the Local Government (Scotland) Bill was quite convinced by my arguments in favour of three Amendments, and he did not ask me to go to the Scottish Office, but he undertook to go there himself and see what he could do. Perhaps the noble Marquess might do the same. I do not anticipate much success myself in going there, but perhaps he might succeed where I anticipate failure.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 17:
Amendment of s. 10 of Act of 1919.
17.Section ten of the Act of 1919, which relates to the erection of fences, shall be amended by the omission of the words from "as may be necessary" to "in the scheme," and by the substitution therefor of the words "as the usual and reasonable practice of agriculture and estate management may require in the conditions."
THE EARL, OF BREADALBANE THE EARL, OF BREADALBANE moved, after "amended," to insert "by the substitution of the words 'have made' for the word make'". The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to amend Section 10 of the Act of 1919. As the section reads at present it provides:
"Where the Board make any order for the constitution of new holdings, they shall, if so requested by the landlord, be bound to erect and maintain, or cause to be erected and maintained, such march fence, or fences, as may be necessary to prevent the stock of the landholder straying beyond the limits of the land comprised in the scheme, any dispute as to the necessity for or the adequacy of such fence or fences to be settled, failing agreement, by the Land Court."

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The object of the Amendment is to compel the Department to put up a march fence if asked for subsequently. As the Act stands at the moment it is not considered to be sufficient because it refers only to fences asked for when the holdings are being constituted. The need for their erection may not become apparent until some time later.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 24, after ("amended") insert ("by the substitution of the words 'have made' for the word 'make'").—(The Earl of Breadalbane.)
EARL DE LA WARR: As the noble Earl says, the object of his Amendment is to enable a demand for a fence to be made subsequently to the carrying out of the scheme. Your Lordships will realise, I think, that this might be a most serious matter for the public Exchequer. In deciding whether or not to carry out a scheme it is essential that the cost of that scheme should be known. As your Lordships are very much better aware than I am, some of these fences which are required are very long fences and likely to be very expensive. It is possible that the Department might be faced suddenly with a demand for a fence costing, let us say, three or four figures even five or ten years after the initiation of the scheme. If there is any case for the alteration of this clause I suggest it is almost in the other direction of putting some specific time in. I understand that hitherto a specific time has been more or less understood, although it was not actually in the Act. Therefore I am afraid the Government could not possibly accept this suggestion.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I think the noble Lord has not quite got the point. I see his difficulty, that when you make a scheme it is necessary to know the finance. But there are cases in which the whole scheme is so altered, or might be so altered, as to necessitate fences which might be agreed upon by both sides, in which case, no doubt, they would be put, up. But it is better to leave it open in the event of a scheme being altered for different forms of cultivation, pasture and so on, or same of the land being sold, so that another landlord might have to be dealt with. It might be necessary in a big out-run, for instance, to put up march fences as between two proprietors. I suggest that
1146
that should not be entirely cut out. I would not ask the noble Lord to press his Amendment, but I do ask that it should be carefully considered before the next stage, because cases might occur and possibly some reasonable arrangement could be arrived at so that if it was thought necessary in the opinion of those concerned to put up fences in certain eases, they may not be entirely debarred.
EARL DE LA WARR: That is quite a new point which is not included in the Amendment.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: It is what it is intended to cover; at least I think so.
EARL DE LA WARR: Perhaps the noble Earl would be satisfied if it was left over.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: I should think it would be far better for the Government to have a contingent rather than an assured liability. If the landlord finds that he cannot take it up later on he would have to press for it straight away. In that case the Government would have au assured liability instead of a contingent one which they might not have to face.
EARL DE LA WARR: Of course, His Majesty's Government are so keen to carry out the Bill "economically," to use Lord Hailsham's word, that we really prefer not to accept the Amendment as it stands.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE EARL OF BREADALBANE: The next two Amendments are consequential.
Amendments moved—
Page 7, line 28, after ("may") insert ("at any time").
line 28 and 29 leave out ("in the conditions").—(The Earl of Breadalbane.)
On Question, Amendments negatived.
Clause 17 agreed to.
Clauses 18 to 25 agreed to.
Clause 26:
Amendment of s. 3 of principal Act.
26.—(1) Subsection (1) of Section three of the principal Act (Which subsection requires notice to be given to the landlord as to certain improvements) shall be amended by the substitution of six months for three months and of three months for two months.
(2) Where the landlord of a holding to whom notice has been given by the tenant under subsection (1) of Section three of the principal Act of intention to execute an improvement, gives notice to the tenant within one month after receiving the aforesaid notice that he objects to the making of the improvement or to the manner in which the tenant proposes to do the intended work, the matter may be referred on the application of either party to the Department who shall determine the same, and in any case where the landlord has so given notice of objection compensation shall not be payable in respect of the improvement unless the Department are satisfied that it ought to be carried out, and where the Department prescribe the manner in which it shall be carried out, unless it is carried out in accordance therewith.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I would call the attention of the noble Duke, the Duke of Buccleuch, to the Amendment of the noble Viscount, Lord Novar, which would come in between the first part of his Amendment and the new subsection he proposes to add. To save the noble Viscount's Amendment I would suggest to your Lordships that I should put the question down to "to arbitration"; that after that I should put the noble Viscount's Amendment, and then, thirdly, the second part of the noble Duke's Amendment. I think that is the way it would come in.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: The noble Lord, Lord Clinton, is moving.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: In that form?
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: Yes.
LORD CLINTON LORD CLINTON moved, in subsection (2), to leave out all words after "referred" and insert "to arbitration." The noble Lord said: I understand the suggestion of the noble Earl, the Lord Chairman, is that I should move to leave out the remainder of the clause after the word "referred" in line 31 and insert the words "to arbitration." This clause deals with claims for compensation which may be made by tenants for improvements under Part II of the First Schedule of the Agricultural Holdings Act. Your Lordships will recollect that that Schedule deals with improvements made under varying conditions. Part II, with which we are dealing, is concerned with improvements made without the consent of, but after giving notice to, the landowner. As that Part stands the only item which it includes is drainage.
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Parliament has been exceedingly jealous about allowing any alteration to that Part on the ground that it is not reasonable that one man should spend another man's capital without his consent. The principle of that clause will, no doubt, be debated later. For the moment I have to deal with the question of arbitration.
Drainage was the only improvement included under Part II of the Agricultural Holdings Act. Now there are seven or eight items added many of them of great importance. The Government have rightly recognised the necessity of some appeal and they suggest that the Board itself or the Department of Agriculture in Scotland should be the body to whom appeals should be addressed. I really want some information on this because there are a great number of cases in which appeals are allowed under this Bill, everyone of them to arbitration except in this one clause when the appeal is to the Department. I do not know why there should be an alteration in the method of these appeals. The appeals themselves are of very great importance and deal with irrigation and water supply, embankments and the installation of electricity. The latter is particularly important because an unsuitable electrical installation may endanger the safety of the whole of the landlord's buildings. We must require that the appeals should be made to people who are competent to deal with them. I do not suggest that the Department is incompetent but, as a matter of fact, I should prefer that it went to arbitration rather than to the Department in Scotland. I will not deal with the details of the matters that would come before the arbiters. They will require special instructions. We can give those instructions to the arbiters; I do not think we can give them to the farmer. For that reason I suggest that the words "to arbitration" should be inserted.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 40, leave out from ("referred") to end of the clause and insert ("to arbitration").—(Lord Clinton.)
EARL DE LA WARR: The noble Lord has addressed himself to the one point in this Amendment, and asked me why it is that in this particular case the Department has been chosen rather than an independent arbiter. I think there are two reasons. The first is one that

1149
the noble Lord gave himself; that is, that we are dealing here with such a large number of points, and very complicated points, that it is most important as far as possible to get uniformity of decision over the whole country. While the principle of arbitration does certainly I think have for some of our minds rather an attraction as against the Department, we do undoubtedly want uniformity, and I think we will get it more from the Department than from a number of different arbiters. There is the other point, the question of expense. There, again, I do not think there is very much doubt that the matter could be decided by the Department a good deal more cheaply than by outside arbiters who, as we know, have to be first-class, competent men, and who would require somewhat large fees. This is a point upon which the National Farmers' Union of Scotland have strong views. They support us in our view that the Department should be the body chosen. I do not offer that to your Lordships necessarily as a reason why you should support us, but rather because we will get greater uniformity and less expense.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I quite agree with the noble Earl opposite that it is a somewhat difficult question; still I think it very doubtful for many reasons if it is desirable to have the Department for this purpose. The Department has to administer, and you do not want to have them between two people. That might make them unpopular. I am very doubtful, also, whether it is a sound thing to do. I admit there is something to be said for uniformity. The noble Earl said it would save expense. So it will as regard the actual arbitration, but judging by the past performances of the Department of Agriculture, I do not think it is likely to reduce the expense of carrying out the works. There may be a slight saving in the first place, but considerably extra expense in the second place. I am sorry the Government have put this in, because it is placing the Department in a somewhat invidious position. As, however, the Government are very strong upon this, perhaps my noble friend will not go to a Division.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved to add to the clause: "declaring always that no tenant who has effected an improvement or improvements
1150
under the said subsection at an aggregate cost exceeding one year's rent of the holding shall be entitled to terminate his tenancy without the landlord's consent, before the lapse of five years after the execution of the improvement last in date." The noble Viscount said: This Amendment has been asked for by the Central Association of Agricultural Arbiters in Scotland and the Border. I do not know of any more reliable source of information. It is evidently a reasonable Amendment and therefore I move it on their behalf.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 38, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Novar.)
EARL DE LA WARR: The point of the noble Viscount in moving this Amendment is to safeguard the landlord against heavy compensation for improvements which are carried out in the last years of tenancy, but it is very difficult to see how a tenant can be debarred from reliquishing his tenancy under certain circumstances. He may die; he may fall ill; he may become bankrupt; he may be disabled. I do riot know what would happen then under the noble Viscount's Amendment. Again, we have to remember that the landlord has the right, under Clause 26, of appeal to the Department before the work is carried out. Further, the landlord will only be required to pay the outgoing tenant such compensation as represents the value of the improvements to an ingoing tenant, and would presumably be able to get the equivalent of that from the new tenant. Your Lordships will notice that the Amendment uses the word "cost" of the Improvement, but the amount of compensation need not bear any relation to the cost. It is the value to an incoming tenant. In practice, the new tenant would generally take over the improvements from the outgoing tenant. This Amendment would tend, I think, to make some tenants, even if the Amendment were workable, unwilling to risk making what we would all agree are desirable improvements. I hope, therefore, the noble Lord will not press an Amendment which is undesirable and, we think, unworkable.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: As my noble friends seem to take no interest in the Amendment, I will withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER THE EARL OF ANCASTER moved to insert the following new subsection:
"(3) When any matter is referred to the Department under this section the Department shall have regard in particular to the estimated cost of the improvement in relation to the size and value of the holding and to the probable return on the capital outlay, and shall also take into consideration any injurious effects which the execution of the improvement may have on neighbouring owners or occupiers."
The noble Earl said: I think this Amendment is of some importance. It does give a certain guidance in regard to the improvements to be carried out. I refer particularly to that part of the Amendment which deals with taking into consideration any injurious effects which the execution of the improvement may have on neighbouring owners or occupiers. I think that is a very important direction to the Department when these works are carried out. Some of the works will alter the water of the countryside in parts of Scotland, where, as we know, there is a great deal of water. It may very easily be that by altering embankments and sluices, water courses, ponds, walls and other works very serious damage may be done. The alteration may suit one tenant, but may do very serious damage to neighbouring tenants. I hope, therefore, the noble Earl will accept the Amendment, which I think is a very harmless one, only giving instructions which it is very necessary should be given to the Department.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 38, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
LORD LAMINGTON: I hope the noble Earl will accept this Amendment. It really carries out what my noble friend Lord Clinton proposed in his Amendment regarding arbitration. It merely gives some safeguard in the direction which has been indicated by the noble Earl, Lord Ancaster, when he stated that there may be considerable danger or expense in carrying out so-called improvements in regard to embankments, rivers, water supplies and so on. It is only right that the Department should have these matters under its consideration specifically before the compensation is assessed.
EARL DE LA WARR: There is nothing in either of the Amendments to which we could possibly take exception, but I hope your Lordships will not ask us to
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insert this Amendment in the Bill for a quite general reason. It is always preferable to avoid giving detailed instructions to an arbitrator or court for the reason that, while it is possible that at the time you may think your instructions are quite complete, very often important matters are left out. The tendency of such instruction, therefore, is rather to narrow the field of the point of view from which the arbitrator or the court must view the matter. The inclusion of certain instructions is inclined on the whole to exclude certain other instructions that are not mentioned. For that reason alone I would ask your Lordships not to insert the Amendment in the Bill, although I admit that everything the noble Earl, Lord Ancaster, and the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, have mentioned will have to be taken into account by anyone dealing with this matter.
LORD LAMINGTON: That is a real bureaucratic reply by the noble Earl. I am all the more convinced of the necessity of the Amendment.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I speak in these matters as a child when it comes to a case of Scottish law, but I do know that it is a dangerous thing to specify certain particular matters which are to be taken into account, because the Courts are apt to construe inclusio unius as exclusio alterius, and to say that those are the only things which the tribunal has to take into account. Therefore, it is rather dangerous to insert a specific instruction unless it is something clearly outside what would normally be taken into account in the absence of instruction. The noble Earl said he agreed entirely with my noble friends behind me that these are matters which ought to be taken into account. As I understand his objection to the Amendment, it is that they would be taken into account without specific direction. I fancy that all that my noble friend wants is to be quite sure that they will be taken into account, and perhaps the noble Earl would ascertain from the legal advisers to the Scottish Office whether there is any doubt that in Scottish law all these matters would necessarily come within the purview of the tribunal. If there is any doubt then I think, at any risk of any undue definition, the proposed subsection

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would have to go in, or part of it. If, on the other hand, they are all quite clearly covered, then no doubt the noble Earl is right in saying that it is a dangerous thing to define too much. I do not know whether the noble Earl would undertake to consult the Scottish legal advisers to the Government who are, of course, of high authority in these matters, and to tell the House before Report whether they can quite specifically assure us that there is no possible danger of these matters being excluded by the tribunal.
EARL DE LA WARR: I can certainly give that assurance, and I can say now that I have already asked them specifically on this point and that is their reply.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 26 agreed to.
Clause 27:
Compensation in respect of temporary pasture.
27. Where the tenant of a holding claims compensation in respect of temporary pasture laid dawn in accordance with paragraph (27) of Part III of the First Schedule to this Act, arid the laying down or the leaving at the termination of the tenancy of such pasture is in contravention of the provisions of the lease or of any agreement made by the tenant respecting the method of cropping the arable lands, the tenant shall be entitled to compensation notwithstanding any such contravention but in ascertaining the amount thereof the arbiter shall take into consideration any injury to or deterioration of the holding duo to such contravention except in so far as the landlord shall have recovered damages in respect of such injury or deterioration.
LOUD CLINTON LOUD CLINTON moved, after the third "contravention," to insert "or any loss due to the holding being left in other than the rotation of cropping prescribed in the lease or customary in the district." The noble Lord said: This clause in effect does away, I think, with the last vestige of the cropping clause usually found in farm leases. By the Agricultural Holdings Act cropping was made free during the tenancy except that in the last year of the lease the farm had to be restored to ordinary rotation, for the main purpose of making quite certain that the farm had not been deteriorated and so that the farm might be handed over in working condition to the incoming tenant. When it is stated, as it is in
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this clause, that compensation shall be paid for all temporary pasture instead of the limited amount laid down in the previous Act, it does mean that the farm cannot be handed over in proper rotation.
There is first of all the objection that the incoming tenant cannot make full use of it. I know of one or two cases in the North-East of Scotland where farms have been laid down entirely in temporary pasture. If the incoming tenant comes in, say, at Martinmas term he has no use for that farm during the winter. He has no straw, no food for his stock and, except perhaps for letting forage for sheep, there is nothing he can do with the farm. He may, if he is wise, perhaps plough up some of that pasture to make ready for crops next year; but the poor man has already paid for what is upon that land and it seems unfair that he should have to break it up without any further use for it. The clause lays down that compensation shall be paid and that "the arbiter shall take into consideration any injury to or deterioration of the holding" due to the contravention of the lease. In most cases it is probable that there will be no injury to the holding itself because the land remained in pasture, loot in certain circumstances there might be loss. If the land had been fed with certain stock—dairy cows, young cattle, horses—the land might deteriorate. But the arbiter is quite open to take that into account.
What is not provided for is the loss to the incoming tenant because he has not received the farm in any sort of rotation upon which he can work it. My Amendment provides for that and lays down directly that "any loss due to the holding being left in other than the rotation of cropping prescribed in the lease or customary in the district" shall be taken into account. I hope the noble Earl will pay some consideration to this matter because it may affect quite a considerable number of people, and we do not want to encourage too much the laying down of land to grass. From the national point of view it is a disadvantage, although for temporary reasons people may be very much encouraged to do so. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 10, after ("contravention") insert ("or any loss due to the holding

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being left in other than the rotation of cropping prescribed in the lease or customary in the district").—(Lord Clinton.)
EARL DE LA WARR: The Government quite agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, says. The only question is whether the words in the Bill really cover his point or not. The words in the Bill, as the noble Lord told your Lordships, are "injury to or deterioration of the holding due to such contravention." I am advised that those words really cover the noble Lord's point. Therefore there is no disagreement, and if the noble Lord would like to discuss the question of drafting with us we are quite prepared to meet him.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: May I point out that injury and deterioration do not necessarily cover the point raised by my noble friend? There might he no deterioration but the expense of putting the land back into crop again might entail loss.
LORD CLINTON: The noble Earl was good enough to say that he agrees with this and that there is a possibility of compensation to the man who receives a farm in such rotation that he cannot make use of it, and he told us that that loss is covered by the words of the Bill. I am very glad to hear that, although I am advised that that is not the case. He suggested that perhaps the draftsmen might get together and see what the legal position is and I shall he glad to agree to that.
LORD SALTOUN: In the North of Scotland Martinmas, which is in November, is not an uncommon entry but is a very inconvenient one and will be still more so if the land is laid down in grass. It really makes it absolutely impossible for a man who enters at that time to prepare the land to receive the crop of the following year. On the other point, the noble Earl who replied said that it was covered by the words "injury to or deterioration of the holding." I cannot find any place in the Bill where that is shown to cover the land that the incoming tenant will take over. I think this is a very serious consideration for him, and I hope that the noble Earl will do something to help us before the Report stage.
EARL DE LA WARR: I am quite ready to consider that point.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I will not detain your Lordships for more than a moment, but I am glad that the noble Earl opposite has given us an encouraging answer. This is really a question of very great importance and, as I mentioned on the Second Reading, it very largely affects farm servants. It is admitted that certain people now have to put down more land to grass, but it is very undesirable to encourage them to do so to a greater extent that is really necessary. I hope that the noble Earl will give very favourable consideration to this point, which affects not only the landlords, whose claims, I suppose, are not to be treated seriously, but the interests of a very large number of ploughmen, where too much land has been put down to grass. I am sorry to have detained your Lordships.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: Could the noble Earl assure us that, where buildings are part of the holding and such buildings deteriorate because the labourers living in the cottages have to leave the farm, the point will be properly covered?
EARL DE LA WARR: I do not think the noble Earl must ask us to go further. We quite admit Lord Clinton's point, and we have agreed to discuss it.
LORD CLINTON: I understand that the draftsmen might get together and possibly satisfy us that the Bill covers what we want. I suggest that we should leave it at that and, if we are not satisfied, put the Amendment down again on Report.
EARL DE LA WARR: That is it. You are quite free on the point.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 27 agreed to.
Clause 28:
Amendment of s. 10 of principal Act.
28. Section ten of the principal Act shall in its application to any case where the lease has been entered into after the commencement of this Act have effect as if the following subsection were added thereto:—
"(2) This section shall not apply unless a record of the condition of the holding has been made under this Act or in respect of any matter arising before the date of the record so made."
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK moved to leave out Clause 28. The noble Viscount said:

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In moving this Amendment I should like to make a few remarks. Section 10 of the Act of 1923 provides that—
"Where a landlord proves to the satisfaction of an arbiter appointed under this Act, on the termination of the tenancy of a holding, that the value of the holding has been deteriorated during the tenancy by the failure of the tenant to cultivate the holding according to the rides of good husbandry or the terms of the lease, the arbiter shall award to the landlord such compensation as in his opinion represents the deterioration of the holding due to such failure."
It will be noticed that, under the Act of 1923, the onus of proof is on the landlord. He has to prove that the holding has been deteriorated by the fault of the tenant; and further that the deterioration has taken place during the tenancy. Under this clause, in order to prove his case, it is necessary for the landlord not only to prove those two points, but to produce a record of the condition of the holding, or in respect of any matter arising before the date on which the record was made.
It is possible that proof would be easier if a record of the holding was in existence, but, if the fact is proved to the satisfaction of the arbiter, the landlord should not be deprived of the right of compensation merely because no record has been made. It is difficult enough now to claim for the deterioration of land, but if this clause is put on the Statute Book it will make it even more difficult to obtain compensation for bad farming. The noble Earl will probably know, or at any rate I would venture to suggest to him, that the tenant is supposed to be farming according to the rules of good husbandry. In fact, he is under an obligation to do so and, if the holding is in a bad state, the reasonable assumption is that the arbiter will be likely to take the view that it has not been farmed properly. I understand that the National Farmers' Union asked for this Amendment because, under Section 9 of the Act of 1923, a tenant cannot get compensation for high farming unless there is a record of the holding. I should like to point out to the Government, however, that the two cases are not parallel. Deterioration is obvious, and an experienced arbiter can generally say whether it is the result of recent failure or not. On the other hand, it is much more difficult to prove or disprove an improvement
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in cultivation, unless there has been a careful record of the holding.
Indeed, without an authoritative record of the state of the holding, the landlord would be at great disadvantage in rebutting any evidence put forward by the tenant who, as I have stated, must he assumed to be farming according to the rules of good husbandry. It must further be remembered in this connection that the tenant is entitled to claim compensation for a large number of improvements which must increase the fertility of the land, such as liming, applying artificial manures, and the consumption of cake and other foodstuffs. As I have said, the two cases are not on all fours, and the only effect of this clause would be to assist the bad farmer in Scotland more easily to evade his responsibilities, and to make it difficult for a landowner to secure compensation from a farmer for the deterioration of a holding owing to bad farming.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 28.—(Viscount Elibank.)
EARL DE LA WARR: The noble Viscount's Amendment is, so far as I can see, based on the supposed difference in the situation of the farmer who is claiming compensation for all-round improvement of a farm and that of the landlord who is claiming for deterioration, but really I cannot see that there is very much difference. I do not think the noble Viscount established a difference. It does seem to me very hard to resist the claim of the Farmers' Union in Scotland, who tell us that, if they wish to obtain recognition of improvements on their farms they have to produce a record. I regard it as perfectly reasonable that, having said that, they should go on and say that, if the landlord wishes to make his claim for deterioration, he also should produce a record. I do not see any great hardship in that. I think many of us always make a principle of having records of farms at hand when tenants go into them. I should think that this is done on the majority of well-managed estates.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: What does the noble Earl mean by a record in that case? Does the noble Earl suggest that a record of farms is kept? Is it a record under an Act?
EARL DE LA WARR: Some record of the state of the farm when it is taken over. I think there are a great number of landlords who do have some record—I do not say under any Act—for practical purposes, and it is very hard to prove deterioration of the farm unless there is some such record. I certainly would not like to find myself in the position of arguing before the Farmers' Union in Scotland that this provision was not desirable. It is only fair and just that these two points should be dealt with in the same way.
LORD CLINTON: There is some element of unfairness in providing that where a tenant has to prove his case there must be a record, but where a landlord has to prove his case there need not be a record. The arrangement for records was made in one of the Agricultural Holdings Acts, but it has seldom been taken advantage of because you cannot lay down with sufficient nicety the actual state of fertility and cultivation of each field at the beginning of a lease, and compare it with any closeness with the state of the land perhaps a lease later. It is, however, very simple indeed for any arbitrator to say if the land is in a bad state of cultivation or bad harvest. For that purpose you do not want a record. The deterioration has perhaps taken place only in the last three or four years. I do not know whether the noble Viscount thinks it necessary to press his Amendment. I should not like it to be said that we were arguing against a thing which is fair when a tenant claims, but unfair when the landlord has a claim.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: In view of what my noble friend has said, I will withdraw this Amendment. I do not want it to be thought that I was putting forward an Amendment which would be unjust to the tenant and fair to the landlord. The points which have been made by Lord Clinton have cleared the matter up, and therefore I will not press my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Clause 29:
Amendment of s. 12 of principal Act.
29. Paragraph (b) of subsection (7) of Section twelve of the principal Act (which
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section relates to compensation for disturbance) shall cease to have effect as regards tenancies terminating more than one month after the commencement of this Act.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved to leave out Clause 29 and to insert the following new clause:—
".Paragraph (b) of subsection (7) of Section 12 of the principal Act (which relates to compensation for disturbance) shall be amended by the omission of the words 'not less than one month'."
The noble Duke said: Perhaps the noble Earl opposite will give an explanation of this clause, and very likely that will satisfy me.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 21, leave out Clause 29 and insert the said new clause.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
EARL DE LA WARR: Under Section 12 of the principal Act, it is provided that under certain conditions a tenant is entitled on leaving his holding to receive from the landlord compensation for disturbance to the amount indicated in subsection (6) of the section. It is provided, however, in subsection 7 (b), that no compensation under this head shall be payable unless the tenant has not less than one month before the termination of the tenancy given notice in writing to the landlord of his intention to make a claim. It has been represented that tenants have frequently overlooked this provision. In practice it may be accepted that all tenants entitled to this compensation intend to claim it, and accordingly landlords cannot hope to avoid the liability except by misadventure. There would seem to be no reason why tenants should require to give notice of a claim before the termination of the tenancy or before the time when other claims in regard to improvements may be lodged. Other ordinary claims may be lodged within two months after the termination of the tenancy, and the purpose of this clause is to place a claim for compensation for disturbance on the same basis as other ordinary claims.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I am obliged to the noble Earl. I thought that might be the explanation, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 30:
Amendment of principal Act as to matters referred to arbitration.
30. The following provision shall be substituted for subsection (1) of Section fifteen of the principal Act (which relates to matters to be referred to arbitration)—
(1) Any question or difference between the landlord and the tenant of a holding arising out of any claim by the tenant against the landlord for compensation under this Act or any Act by this Act repealed, or out of any claim by either party against the other for breach of contract or otherwise in respect of the holding or out of any claim by the landlord against the tenant for waste wrongly committed or permitted. by the tenant, or as to the construction of the lease, and any other question or difference of any kind whatsoever between the landlord and the tenant arising out of the tenancy or in connection with the holding (not being a question or difference as to liability for rent) shall, whether such question or difference arises during the currency or on the termination of the tenancy, be determined by arbitration.
LORD CLINTON LORD CLINTON moved to leave out "or out of any claim by either party against the other for breach of contract or otherwise in respect of the holding." The noble Lord said: I am not quite clear why these words should come in here at all. Before those words occur, we have questions of a claim by the tenant against the landlord for compensation. Immediately after they occur, we have a claim by the landlord against the tenant for waste, and later still any question or difference of any kind whatsoever between the landlord and tenant. Are not these words, which I propose to omit, redundant, or what is the reason for inserting them?
Amendment moved—
Page 10, lines 33 to 35, leave out ("or out of any claim by either party against the other for breach of contract or otherwise in respect of the holding").—(Lord Clinton.)
EARL DE LA WARR: Perhaps in answering the noble Lord's question, I may deal with the purpose of the whole clause. Then I think the matter will explain itself. The object of Clause 30 is to amend subsection (1) of Section 15 of the principal Act, which details the matters that may be referred to arbitration under the Act. From the construction of Section 15 of the principal Act, it has been held by the Court that questions or differences (except those concerning
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the construction of a lease) cannot be referred to arbitration during the currency of a tenancy. They can be the subject of a claim only at the end of the tenancy, when in some cases the time for satisfactory adjustment of questions has passed. The new clause therefore makes it clear that all questions arising during the currency of a tenancy as well as at its termination shall, except questions relating to liability for rent, be dealt, with by arbitration.
Section 15 at present includes among the matters that may be referred to arbitration, questions concerning "breach of contract or otherwise." As the law stands, however, such questions could be referred to arbitration only at the end of the lease. The apparent object of the Amendment is to remove questions relating to "breach of contract or otherwise" altogether from the matters that may be referred to arbitration whether during the currency or at the end of the lease. I am not quite sure from what the noble Lord has said that he really intends to do that and I hope he will not press his Amendment.
LORD CLINTON: The noble Earl says that these words are put in to make sure that all matters are referred to arbitration. It does not appear to me that it makes it more sure because you say it twice over; but if the words are necessary I do not want to leave them out, and will not press my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 30 agreed to.
The Earl OF BREADALBANE The Earl OF BREADALBANE moved, after Clause 30, to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of s. 16 of the principal Act.
".Section sixteen of the principal Act, which deals with the procedure in arbitrations, shall be amended by the omission of the words 'sheep stocks' in subsection (5) and by the addition of the following subsection:—
(6) After the passing of this Act all valuations of sheep stocks tied to the ground and bound under a lease to be taken over from the outgoing tenant at the termination of a tenancy by the landlord or incoming tenant shall, unless the outgoing tenant and the landlord or incoming tenant otherwise agree, be made by an arbiter selected by the Department out of a panel of arbiters appointed specially for that purpose by the Lord President of the Court of Session after consultation with the Department."
The noble Earl said: Before I move the Amendment which stands in my name, I should like to submit to your Lordships a few particulars with regard to sheep stock valuation in Scotland, and particularly in relation to acclimatisation value. I emphasise that, because although it is a somewhat complicated and intricate principle to explain, it is there that the crux of the difficulty lies, and there the seeds of a deep and widespread grievance have developed. It is hoped by means of the Amendment to alter the whole conditions under which in future arbiters will be selected for the purpose of making these valuations, and in place of the present somewhat haphazard panel of three sheep farmers, to substitute a more judicial type of arbiter who will be ready to approach the matter in an impartial and open-minded manner. What is wanted is a fair valuation based on real value, and just to landlord and tenant alike. It is proposed by the Amendment that an arbiter shall he selected by the Department of Agriculture from a panel of arbiters especially appointed for that purpose by the Lord President of the Court of Session in consultation with the Department. Whether that is the best possible solution, or whether the Land Court would be an even fairer tribunal, I do not know, but I see there is another Amendment later which I would be quite ready to support. At any rate, I think more equitable results would be obtained by either system than under the present most unsatisfactory arrangement.
This vexed and difficult question of sheep stock valuations arose a good many years ago, when black-faced sheep from the South were first introduced into the Scottish Highlands and largely displaced the original Highland cattle. It was undoubtedly a sound and progressive step in the history of Scottish farming, but it carried with it this disadvantage, that sheep were brought into a land of much heavier rainfall and more severe climatic conditions than those to which they were accustomed. They consequently suffered an abnormally high rate of mortality during the first few years, until they had become acclimatised to their new surroundings. It therefore gradually became recognised that where a flock of black-faced sheep had become acclimatised to a particular Highland
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farm they possessed, by virtue of that acclimatisation, and so long as they remained on that particular ground, a greater value to the farmer than they would possess if driven down to a market for sale. Now, this increment in value due to acclimatisation, when added to the market price of sheep, forms the total which is known as the acclimatisation value.
Although many experts consider that the importance of acclimatisation has been over-estimated, I think it is common ground to say that there is a general opinion that such a value does definitely and in fact exist. But it is when we come to place a precise figure on this acclimatisation increment that the difficulty really begins. Evidently it varies with the market price of sheep, for if the market value is very low, then the acclimatisation increment must be correspondingly very small. To take an extreme case, if there is no demand for sheep at all, then obviously an acclimatised sheep is worth no more than one freshly introduced to the farm. Again, it varies with the severity of the climate, for if we take sheep from one mild climate to another equally mild and dry climate then they will do as well as sheep which have been there for some time.
So you will see that this acclimatisation increment is not a constant, but is compounded of such variable factors as the market value of sheep and the climatic conditions under which they are being farmed. Now, if a farmer at the expiration of his tenancy sold his flock away from the ground to which it had been acclimatised the acclimatisation increment naturally evaporated, and he could only expect to receive the market value for his flock, and not the greater acclimatisation value. Furthermore, a new farmer would be forced to incur the losses incidental to acclimatising a fresh flock. Therefore, it seemed a much sounder policy that the sheep stocks should remain tied to the ground, and that on a change of tenancy they should be handed over from the outgoing to the incoming tenant at an acclimatisation value fair to both. But the difficulty arose that when making a lease with the farmer it was not possible to say what his successor would or would not be willing to do in years to come, for it was not known at that time who the

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succeeding tenant would be. Still less would it be possible to bind him to take over the sheep stock at acclimatisation or any other value. And yet the farmer who was about to incur loss in acclimatising a flock naturally desired this loss to be recouped to him. And so the most practical solution of the dilemma seemed to be that the landlord should guarantee to take over the flock from the tenant at acclimatisation value on the expiration of the tenancy. The proprietor had really no personal interest or responsibility in the matter at all. He was simply assisting in the handing over from one tenant to another and acting as a sort of stake holder or go-between.
The question arose by whom was this valuation to be made. The old leases read that "it was to be made according to the custom of the country at the valuation of neutral men," and the original valuations appear to have given satisfaction to all parties concerned. But gradually the custom developed of appointing two arbiters, one for the landlord and one for the tenant, and one "oversman," usually a man of more influential standing, to adjudicate between the two; and, possibly because they were the most easily available, and possibly because they possessed the requisite knowledge of sheep values, it became usual that all these three men should be chosen from among other sheep farmers. The valuation arrived at under this system gave such increasing dissatisfaction and appeared so exceedingly one-sided that in 1908 the situation called for remedy, and by the Scottish Agricultural Holdings Act the two arbiters and the "oversman" were swept away and a single arbiter substituted. It was confidently hoped that, by this means fairer valuations would ensue. However, within two years the Scottish Chamber of Agriculture got the new arrangement cancelled and the former one-sided system reinstated. This practice is still in force to-day and I submit that it consists in nothing but a travesty of justice. For here you have a valuation between landlord and tenant by which the landlord, and the landlord alone, is bound, being made by three tenant sheep farmers. That is to say, by men who are making a living out of sheep farming, who have largely invested their capital in sheep stocks and who are, therefore,
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in the nature of things deeply and personally interested in maintaining the nominal value of sheep at the highest possible level. Their own flocks, even, may be coming up in a year or two for valuation under precisely the same system.
I submit that the acclimatisation value arrived at by this method has been an unfair and an inflated one. Now, how is that statement to be proved? It has been said that the value of an article is the price which it will fetch. This may be somewhat cynical and may not in all cases be the complete truth, but it does at any rate afford a pertinent and practical test. Let us apply it in this case and see whether the incoming tenant is ever willing in fact to accept as a fair-valuation for the sheep stock the price which the arbiters have compelled the landlord to pay; and the answer is that never will be do anything of the sort. I understand that he would be very ill-advised if he did, because, as I venture to repeat, the valuation is unreasonable and artificial.
I will give a few actual instances from a good many collected by the Scottish Land and Property Federation. Between 1900 and 1910 on a certain Scottish property, it happened that at various dates forty leases came to an end. The total difference between the acclimatisation values placed on the sheep stocks by the arbiters and the highest prices offered by the incoming tenants for the same sheep on the same farms amounted to a difference of no less than £37,000; that is to say, this enormous sum of £37,000 represented a dead loss to the proprietor and one for which he had no moral responsibility and against which he had no possible means of redress. In 1925 a stock of 1,319 black faced sheep were valued on a farm in Dumbartonshire at an acclimatisation value of £8,051. They were handed over on the same day and on the same ground to an incoming tenant whose highest bid was £5,872. That is to say, there was a dead loss to the proprietor, simply for having been the nominal owner of these sheep for the matter of a few hours, of no less than £2,178, or about £1 11 s. on every head of sheep. In 1927 there was a farm in Argyllshire let at a total annual rent of £70. The arbiters valued the sheep stock at an acclimatisation value of £5,700.

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The highest price offered by any prospective tenant was £2,700. That is to say, that there was a dead loss to the proprietor of no less than £3,000 or £2 10 s. per head of sheep.
One last instance, although they could be multiplied indefinitely. Two farms in Argyllshire were let at a combined rent of £190. They carried a black-faced sheep stock of 2,100 sheep. The difference between the value placed by the arbiters on the sheep stock and the price paid by the incoming tenant was the sum of no less than £4,370. It so happened that these farms were shortly afterwards valued for Death Duties at £2,850; that is to say, the loss incurred by the proprietor, at one handing over of the sheep stock, amounted to considerably more than the total value of the two farms put together. I venture to emphasise these facts because I think that noble Lords who sometimes say that they are not familiar with Scottish affairs hardly realise the injustice that has gone on in the making of sheep stock valuations. What is the effect of this most inequitable system? It is this, that although there are undoubted advantages to the sheep farming industry as a whole in having the sheep stocks tied to the ground, yet in every case as opportunity offers and as leases fall in, proprietors are being driven to cut their losses, to extinguish sheep rights, and to take very good care that they do not again commit themselves to this nebulous and menacing responsibility. It has done, and is doing, a great deal to breed a feeling of injustice and grievance between landlord and tenant, and it is the very negation of that mutually helpful atmosphere that should rightly exist if farming is to prosper in future.
A few days ago I listened to a noble Lord who sits on the Government Benches regretting that more money was not available for agricultural research, and I heard the noble Earl who is in charge of the Bill himself advocating the expenditure of no less than one million pounds of public money so that the most modern, the most up-to-date and the most scientific methods of farming might be encouraged. With all of this, under more favourable circumstances, I would heartily agree. But when Scottish landed estates are in many cases barely solvent and are reeling beneath the
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staggering blows of falling prices, Income Tax, Super-Tax and the rising cost of labour, I would ask how on earth can Highland proprietors be expected to indulge in model farming when they are being so savagely and so extortionately hit by such utterly unfair valuations. The very word valuation is a misnomer, for how can the same sheep on the same hills possess one value for the landlord to pay in the morning and another entirely different, and much smaller, value for the tenant to pay in the afternoon? Your Lordships can well imagine the outcry that would arise if the positions were reversed.
I have not the agricultural experience and I have not the debating skill adequately to present this case in your Lordships' House with the vigour which its injustice and its demerits warrant, but I appeal to noble Lords who do possess those attributes to support this Amendment and to press home the arguments which I have endeavoured to lay before your Lordships this day. I appeal to the noble Earl who is so ably taking charge of the Bill not only to investigate the question of the acclimatisation values to the hilt, but also sympathetically to consider this Amendment; for in it there seems the only real hope of placing sheep stock valuations on a fair basis in the future and of putting an end to what, through the length and breadth of the Scottish Highlands, has been known for many years as a flagrant injustice and a crying scandal. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 30 insert the said new clause. —(The Earl of Breadalbane.)
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: I have on the Paper a very similar Amendment. The only difference really is that whereas the noble Earl, who has just made such an excellent speech in support of his Amendment, recommends that the valuation should be made by an arbiter appointed by the Department, I am proposing that the Land Court should arbitrate on matters connected with the valuation of sheep stock. After the noble Earl's very eloquent speech I propose to make very little addition to the arguments that have been put forward. But it is rather strange that when a Bill has been presented to Parliament to regulate, improve and make more just

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the position of landlord and tenant, and when the land tenure of Scotland is to be more or less overhauled and where there may be suspicion of injustice as regards compensation between the two parties, no mention should be made of the one most crying example of ridiculous valuations made upon a ridiculous principle. I think it is only right that attention should be called to this matter when Parliament is amending the law between landlord and tenant in Scotland and some effort should be made to amend what has been a crying evil for so many years. I should prefer the Land Court as arbiter in these matters. We should then get a judicial decision and a general ruling laid down. It would not be left to be talked over among a few big sheep farmers in the country who practically value for each other. We should get an independent person to lay down certain laws and regulations regarding such valuations and to recognise what is a fair charge to make for acclimatisation value.
I rather differ in one thing from the noble Earl. He seems to think, and he may be right, chat there is on most farms a real acclimatisation value attached to the sheep stock. From my own personal experience I think that value is very little indeed. I know plenty of eases where the whole of the sheep stock has been sold and another sheep stock bought and put on the farm, and there has been no particular mortality among the new sheep. They have seemed, in fact, healthier and better than the sheep which were on the farm before. I think the legend that black-faced sheep could not live on certain hills in Scotland unless their fathers and mothers, their great-grandfathers and great-grandmothers, and their ancestors for ten or twelve generations had lived there before is not altogether true, though, of course, it may apply to some rather unhealthy farms or farms on very high land. The whole thing probably arose because nut so very long ago, not a hundred years I think, it was believed that no sheep could live on the hills in Scotland. I believe I am right in saying that almost all the few of the wretched sheep that were left among the mountains and glens of the North were generally put in a house during winter.
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The black-faced sheep have, after all, been a very good friend to me, because I have made a good profit out of sheep farming during the last twenty years. It is the only farming I have made a profit out of. Therefore it would perhaps seem a not very patriotic thing to say that the black-faced sheep are, I believe, natives of Cumberland and Westmorland. Smile intelligent person introduced these black-faced sheep into Scotland, I think something under a hundred years ago, in place of the sheep that they used to keep in the houses during the winter. These Cumberland and Westmorland sheep were put upon the hills and glens of Scotland, and it was found that they could survive the winter. In all probability that was the beginning of what has come to be known as acclimatisation value. I am glad to say that there are now a good many black-faced sheep all over the country. I think that a change of stock is often very desirable on certain farms.
The noble Earl in charge of the Bill is always telling us that it is preferable to have either the Department or the Land Court to settle these disputes. In one part of the Bill we have dealt with a large number oh small holders who, in the old days, had their differences of opinion with the landlord settled by means of an arbiter. These people are now placed under the Land Court. A short time ago the noble Lord below me was moving to put arbitration into one of the clauses instead of the Department, and the noble Earl made a very great defence of the Department, saying that in these matters between the landlord and tenant the Department was on the whole better than the arbiters. Let us have the same thing for sheep valuations. We have tried arbiters. The sheep farmers themselves are arbitrating on this matter. I have no doubt the outgoing tenants have derived very considerable satisfaction from the enormous prices which the arbiters have placed upon the sheep. Whether those prices have given the same satisfaction to the incoming tenant or to the landlord is a very doubtful matter; in fact I am quite sure they nave not given satisfaction at all. Here is an opportunity for the noble Earl to put into force those arguments which he has used during discussion on previous clauses of the Bill, to the effect that the Land Court or the

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Department is the proper body to settle these differences between landlord and tenant. Let us have such a body in the case of sheep stock valuations as we have in so many other cases where differences arise between landlords and tenants.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: This is by far the most important matter which has been raised this afternoon, and the noble Earl who moved this Amendment has exposed one of the greatest ramps that has ever been exposed. Most of the agricultural valuations in Scotland have, I think, on the whole, been fairly conducted, but anything more dishonest than the sheep farm valuations could not possibly be found. No one is better qualified to deal with the subject than the noble Earl who opened this discussion. It is one upon which he spoke both eloquently and well. There is such a thing in some cases as acclimatisation value, but, as he said, on some lands there is none. It may go up to twenty or twenty-five per cent., and I should not think very much more, but the values which have to be paid by the landlord are sometimes 200 per cent. of the real value—more than double what the sheep are worth in the market. That means that at least three-quarters of the acclimatisation value given in some cases does not exist, and ought never to have been awarded. I admit the evil result which in this case has followed from arbiters voluntarily appointed, and for once, I believe, if we could get arbiters appointed under some kind of judicial sanction, we might he relieved of this disgrace to the system of valuation in Scotland.
EARL DE LA WARR: I am sure, whatever we do about this Amendment, many of us will feel very grateful to the noble Earl who moved it for the amazingly clear exposition of what is to many of us a most difficult subject. What the noble Earl wants to arrive at is machinery for a fair value (I think his words were) to the farmer and to the landowner and one that is more equitable than the existing machinery for arriving at that value. We are all agreed upon that point. That is the goal which we all desire to reach. The question is, has a case been really made out that the existing system is unsatisfactory? There is no doubt that the noble Earl feels most strongly on this matter, and he
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has produced a number of cases. On the other hand, we have to recognise that this system has been working now for over twenty-two years, and at the end of it, I am informed by my advisers that no representations at all have been received by the Department in favour of altering the system. The National Farmers' Union of Scotland, and also the Scottish Chamber of Agriculture, which is, I understand, a body representative of a great number of interests in agriculture, are both opposed to this change. Not only that, but as the law is to-day, if landlords feel that this system is so iniquitous, I understand it is open to them to insert in their leases any provision for any form of arbitration that they desire. What is more, even under the present system, if they do not do that, it is within their power to appoint whom they like to represent them as one of the two arbiters.
While the noble Earl has undoubtedly, at first sight, put up a very strong case for the alteration, I must say that on examination, and on examination by bodies that intimately know the system and its working in Scotland, that case seems to disappear. In view of the fact that not only the Farmers' Union of Scotland but the Scottish Chamber of Agriculture favour a continuance of this system, in view of the fact that no representations have been received, I understand, in favour of altering the existing practice, and in view of what the landowners can already do under the existing law to modify the system, which, after all is really only based on custom, I ask your Lordships not to make this alteration.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: Perhaps I can speak more impartially than other noble Lords upon this system, for in my part of the country we have always set our face against it. The result is that when a new tenant comes in he and the outgoing tenant agree between themselves, and there has never in that case been any difficulty. Therefore I am quite impartial myself. I think it must be admitted that there is a very great grievance and it is not quite so easy as the noble Earl opposite thinks to put any agreement into the clause to get out of the difficulty. In fact, I think, it would be almost impossible. I admit there are great difficulties in this matter,

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but I think there is rather a greater hardship than the noble Earl opposite realises.
THE EARL OF BREADALBANE: should like to reply to one or two points raised by the noble Earl. He says that no representation has been made before about the injustice of this system. It may be so—I do not challenge his statement—but personally I simply cannot understand how it has gone on so long without being raised. It is notorious in Scotland. Articles appear on the subject in factors' magazines and in agricultural magazines, and if the Government are properly in touch with agricultural affairs I should have thought it impossible that they should not be aware of it. The noble Earl says it is quite open to the landlord to alter his lease. That may be so in future leases, because I think every Highland proprietor takes very good care he does not repeat this opportunity for extortion in new leases. It is the old leases which have not come to an end that I am thinking of. At the end of the lease the sheep stock has to be valued, and what is wanted is a fair valuation, a fair panel one can go to. The noble Earl says there is a representative for the landlord. So there is. But there is also one for the tenant and they cancel out, and it has to be decided by the third man. They are all sheep farmers. I make no charge against tenant sheep farmers but they are personally interested in keeping values up to the highest possible theoretical value, and because there are a large number of tenants and a small number of landlords the procedure is perpetual. I would seriously ask the noble Earl not to take my word for it—I do not want to exaggerate the case—but to look into it. Unless he can give me some more comforting assurance than he has done I should like to divide on the Amendment.
EARL DE LA WARR: I am afraid I cannot give any undertaking at the moment. Certainly the noble Earl has put forward a strong case and it is for him to do as he likes. I am afraid I cannot give any undertaking now.
Clauses 31 to 35 agreed to.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, after Clause 35, to insert the following new clause:—
Amendment of s. 49 of principal Act.
".Subsection (1) of Section forty-nine of the principal Act (which deals with arbitration) shall be amended by the substitution in the definition of the expression 'Manuring' of the words 'twenty-three, twenty-five and twenty-six' for the words 'twenty-five, twenty-six and twenty-seven.'"
The noble Duke said: I think this is accepted by the Government. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 35 insert the said new clause.—(The Duke of Atholl.)
EARL DE LA WARR: I agree to this Amendment.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule:

PART II.
Improvements in respect of which Notice to Landlord is required.
(13) Making or removal of permanent fences.
(15) Making of embankments and sluices against floods.
(17) The provision of electrical equipment other than moveable fittings and appliances.

PART III.
Improvements in respect of which Consent of or Notice to Landlord is not required.
(24) The eradication of bracken, whins, or gorse growing on a farm at, the comcencement of a tenancy and in the case of arable land the removal of tree roots, boulders, stones or other like obstacles to cultivation.
(27) Laying down temporary pasture with clover, grass, lucerne, sainfoin, or other seeds, sown more than two years prior to the termination of the tenancy, in so far as the value of the temporary pasture on the holding at the time of quitting exceeds the value of the temporary pasture on the holding at the commencement of the tenancy for which the tenant did not pay compensation.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE moved to add to paragraph (13) "but excluding the removal of stone walls and growing hedges." The noble Earl said: I have been asked by my noble friends Lord

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Lamington and Lord' Sinclair to move this Amendment which stands on the Paper in their names. The reason is that stone walls and hedges are of such a permanent nature that the tenant should hardly be given the right to remove them.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 35, at end insert ("but excluding the removal of stone walls and growing hedges.")—(The Earl of Lauderdale.)
EARL DE LA WARR: I should like to point out that this particular matter is dealt with in Part II of the Bill and if the noble Earl looks at that he will see that the landlord has a right of appeal to the Department. Therefore, if this particular work was not likely to improve the holding—and I think that we should all admit that in some circumstances that might be so—he would be able to put his case before the Department. I think there is no doubt that in some cases it may be very desirable to carry out the work, and I would suggest that full provision is made for the statement of both sides of the case in the Bill as it stands.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON moved, in paragraph (15), to leave out "Making" and insert "Repairing or renewing." The noble Lord said: This Amendment was moved on Report stage in another place. If you make a new embankment to prevent flooding from a fast-flowing river you never know what the result will be as regards other people's property or what litigation may arise. If embankments already exist their effect is known and there is far less objection to their renewal or repair. I hope the noble Earl will see his way to accept this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 27, leave out ("Making") and insert ("Repairing or renewal").— (Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)
EARL DE LA WARR: Here again the actual making of an embankment may be a very important work and it may be very desirable that it should be carried out. I would point out to your Lordships that, as in the case of the last Amendment, the landlord has the right to appeal here also under Clause 26 of the Bill.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: That may be so, but as every one knows making an embankment is a very dangerous thing. The law is very strict about it and you may have a very large claim against you by other parties. I think it is dangerous to leave in the word "making." "Repairing or renewal" is all right, but to make a new one does not merely concern the man whose property it is made on; it concerns others. He would be entirely responsible for all damage done. I think this is a very important Amendment and one that is most desirable. It is very seldom that a new embankment would be wanted.
EARL DE LA WARR: That consideration would be one of the first considerations the Department would have to take into account when appealed to by the landlord.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: Yes, but you cannot tell until afterwards.
EARL DE LA WARR: As to the question of liability that is a legal point of which I should like to have notice. Speaking off-hand, if the landlord is not in favour of the making of the embankment I cannot conceive that, he would be held responsible for damage from it. It rather takes us back to the Amendment we had on the Public Health Act. It was made quite clear there that if a landlord was not responsible for carrying out work he would not be liable for any damage or expense that might arise as the result of carrying it out. I think really the noble Lord's point is covered by the right of appeal to the Department.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: Suppose the bank gives way and the landlord has to take over when a new tenant comes in: the new tenant will not be held responsible, but the landlord mill. Therefore he has that responsibility with which he might be faced afterwards.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I appeal to the noble Earl. I do not know whether my noble friend is going to press the Amendment but, if not, I hope the noble Earl will go into the matter a little further before Report.
EARL DE LA WARR: I will.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: Then I beg leave to withdraw, reserving the right to move again on Report.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, at the end of the last paragraph in Part II, to insert "provided that the installation complies with the conditions prescribed by the Institution of Electrical Engineers and by the fire insurance companies." The noble Duke said: I think this is a point of great importance. I quite admit that the Government may find better words for the purpose, though it is difficult to do so, but there is no doubt that electrical equipment is coming into use on farms to a considerable extent. I have had several cases in which certain compensation may be necessary, and I have been considering the general scheme to cover this. There is likely to be a large increase of this equipment, and on three occasions already I have had people putting in equipment, not with any bad intention, but quite ignorantly, of an extremely dangerous kind. Probably the houses would have been burnt down if it had remained. The farmer would lose his house in the meantime, the landlord would suffer and the farm would go to the bad. I think there must be some words of this kind as a general guidance, and they would provide help for the tenant, who often has no idea what to do. Unfortunately many people know very little about these matters and think that it is perfectly safe to do anything that they see their neighbours do. I do not know whether my actual wording is satisfactory, but I am certain that some Amendment is needed.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 30, at end insert the said new words.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
VISCOUNT NOVAR: Let me point out that this is not merely a landlord's question. As director of an insurance company, I should rather call it an insurance company's question. Any check that can usefully be applied to diminish the risk of fire is very much to be desired. I hope that this point will not be overlooked.
EARL DE LA WARR: There is no objection to this Amendment in principle. The only question is whether the Department would provide the best protection or whether the noble Duke's Amendment is better. Perhaps we might discuss the matter again on Report. I would only add that there are a number of fire insurance
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offices, and they might have different ideas. That would have to be provided for.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: Since we are in agreement as to the necessity of some such words, I will bring the point up again on Report.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, at the end of Part II, to insert "(18). The eradication of bracken, whins or gorse growing on a pastoral farm at the commencement of a tenancy." The noble Duke said: I think this is a very important Amendment, and one on which I desire to insist. I do not want to talk too much about myself, but I think I have probably had as much experience as anybody of trying to eradicate bracken, and in some cases I have been successful. I do not think this provision ought to be in Part III. It should be in Part II. It is not a matter about which a great deal is known, and experiments are still being made. A lot of money might be spent with very little effect. I am afraid I must press for this provision being taken out of Part III and put in Part II. In regard to the eradication of whins and gorse, if anyone has been successful in finding a remedy I should be very glad if he would tell me what it is.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 30, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
VISCOUNT NOVAR: The only point on which I differ from the noble Duke is that I do not think this should be in the Schedule at all. I think it should be left as a matter of agreement. There is, no certainty as to eradication, and I should be very glad if the noble Earl could enlighten me as to what "eradication of bracken" means. I know how it is done, like the noble Earl, but I do not find that my method is usually followed. I believe it is quite simple to eradicate bracken if you switch the young shoots when they come up in spring several times over, and continue doing so for a year or two, but that is not the method usually followed. I have seen a Scottish agricultural college pursuing a series of experiments which were absolutely useless. If it has to be in some part of the Schedule, then the noble Duke's proposal is certainly desirable.
EARL DE LA WARR: I do not think we need debate the various methods of getting rid of bracken. I have my own opinion on that. In my own county it is perfectly possible by various methods. On the question of which is the most appropriate part of the Schedule, I think Part III is the most suitable. Supposing a man wants to adopt the method of switching young shoots, as suggested by the noble Viscount, he may just have a week, or a few days, when his men are free to do this. Under the proposed Amendment he would have to write to his landlord for permission, and by that time probably his men would be doing something else. The noble Duke has referred to the question of cost, but I would remind him that it is not so much a question of cost as of the value to the incoming tenant. If a man does it unprofitably or unsuccessfully, the valuation is so much the less. I think the reason why the noble Duke made his observation was that he was thinking in terms of cost, and not of the value to the incoming tenant. If he looks at it in that light, I think he will see that there is no grievance on the part of the landlord if he allows the tenant to have full freedom for dealing with bracken in any way he likes. The only further point is that the Amendment brings in the words "pastoral farm." I think that is a pity, because, although bracken is not usually found on arable farms, it may be growing fairly extensively on any high-lying grassland attached to an arable farm, which would still be called an arable farm. It would be a great pity to insert these words. I hope your Lordships will not press this point, but will leave the Schedule as it is.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I should like to support my noble friend the Duke of Buccleuch on this question. I do not know what experience the noble Earl opposite has had in the eradication of bracken, though he indicated that he had some experience, but I think he has really missed the point, in so far as this question affects the compensation payable upon the tenant going out. If the farmer is to be allowed to spend money on the eradication of bracken in such a way as he may think fit, and then come up for compensation with a claim that bracken had been eradicated, it would be very difficult to adjust or size up such a claim. I very strongly support my
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noble friend's Amendment, and I hope that he will press it to a Division. If he does, I shall go into the Lobby with him.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, lines 11 and 12, leave out ("the eradication of bracken, whins or gorse growing on a farm at the commencement of a tenancy, and").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
LORD CLINTON LORD CLINTON had on the Paper an Amendment, in paragraph (27), to leave out "temporary pasture with clover, grass, lucerne, sainfoin, or other seeds sown more than two years prior to" and insert "with clover, grass, lucerne, sainfoin or other seeds temporary pasture more than two years old at." The noble Lord said: Unless the noble Lords who have also put down this Amendment wish to move it, I should prefer that it should not be moved, because I see certain objections to it as it stands on the Paper.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: It deals with a point put forward by certain arbitrators. It is a technical point, and might be looked into.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedule agreed to.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (PUBLICITY) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, at this late hour I will not detain you more than a few minutes, and in so doing I shall ask for your indulgence for one who has never before spoken in this House. This Bill empowers local authorities to contribute, up to the amount of a halfpenny rate, towards a central organisation, approved in England and Wales by the Minister of Health and in Scotland by the Secretary of State, which is established for collecting information in regard to the amenities and attractions of the British Isles, and for the purpose of disseminating that information abroad. In a word, what is aimed at is national publicity. The immediate object is to increase the tourist traffic and all the good which accrues therefrom. Your Lordships are aware

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that similar organisations exist in France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland and Spain, and it has been proved to the satisfaction of those countries that this form of publicity has very direct and satisfactory results.
No organisation existed in this country capable of carrying on this work until 1929, when there was formed the Travel Association of Great Britain and Ireland. This Association had the support of the late Government, and, has, I believe, the support of the present Government. It has as its Chairman the noble Earl, Lord Derby, who, but for a most important engagement in the North, would have been present to support the Bill. Without wishing to detain your Lordships, I want to point out that the real point is that the power granted to local authorities is only permissive. The local authorities can, if they desire, contribute towards a central organisation which will secure the results already defined. It may be argued that in these difficult times it is undesirable to authorise a scheme involving expenditure, but I think it can be shown without doubt that the expenditure in this case will be profitable. First we have the official figures of the Home Office, which show that since this organisation has been in existence there has been a continued increase in the number of tourists coming to this country, and that means not only benefits to hotel keepers, small proprietors, theatres, shops and transport companies, but also to all the manufacturers and workers employed in the industries upon which those different concerns rely.
It is because we believe that this is really doing something to foster national prosperity and increase industry and commerce in this country, that we are putting forward this Bill. It has not only the support of a great many associations, but it has passed through the House of Commons with the consent of all Parties. I commend this Bill to the House, because I think it is a real endeavour to do something towards fostering the chances of trade revival. We are convinced, and we have proof from foreign countries, that this form of publicity is doing good. If I had time I could read extracts from newspapers abroad showing the value of disseminating this sort of information. I have
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always been struck by the fact that visitors coming from the United States of America tend to get off the liner at Cherbourg and to miss out this country, simply because of the inadequate sources for the supply of information to show them what advantages they would derive from a visit to the British Isles. We think this organisation to which we are empowering local authorities to contribute will be able to do a great deal in that way, and for that reason I move the Second Reading of this Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I have very much pleasure in supporting this Bill. I wish in the first place to congratulate the noble Lord upon the eloquent way in which he has made his maiden speech, and to express the hope that we shall hear many more speeches from him. At this late hour I do not want to say more than a very few words. This Bill is not going to involve the ratepayers in very great expense. The association was founded, as the noble Lord has said, some two years ago, and it has already produced a very remarkable effect. We are told that this year, in spite of bad times, nearly five thousand more travellers have come from the United States. The association is due in its inception, I believe, to Mr. Douglas Hacking, formerly Secretary for the Department of Overseas Trade, and he, together with Lord Derby as Chairman, has been most useful in founding this association. Its income at the present moment is about £16,000 a year, and I believe that the aim is to get £50,000 or £60,000 a year.
As Lord Strathcona has told your Lordships, it is entirely voluntary upon the part of the various local authorities whether they subscribe or not. I am glad to say that I have pointed out the merits of this Bill to that champion of economy on these Benches, Lord Banbury, and although he did not express his approval, by his absence he has shown that he does not greatly dissent. I am sure the public must be confident, if a champion of economy like that more or less approves the Bill, that it must be right. The Bill has the support of the Municipal Corporations' Association, a body with which I do not always agree, because they are rather extravagant in their aims at

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times; also of the Urban District Councils' Association and the Conference of Health and Pleasure Resorts. I am glad to think that Miss Susan Lawrence, on behalf of the Government, made a most able and very amusing speech about Boadicea, in supporting the Bill. As I understand that the Government are going to give it their support to-day, I trust that it will get through speedily, and that we may see some results of the benefits which it is hoped it will confer upon the public, even at the coming Whitsuntide.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD MARLEY): My Lords, perhaps in indicating the attitude of the Government towards this Bill I might be permitted to re-echo the congratulations offered to the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading in so eloquent and so succinct a speech. I am quite sure the House will desire to hear him again, and it is to be regretted that so few members of your Lordships' House were here to listen to him to-day. Of course, this Bill is entirely non-contentious, and it is supported by all Parties. I should like to remind the House that France receives nearly 2,000,000 foreign visitors a year, who spend £100,000,000; whereas in this country we receive under £10,000,000 a year from visitors from abroad, who last year numbered 246,000. It is, however, a fact that during the last four years the number of visitors to this country classed as tourists has increased by 40,000, or 10,000 a year.
It is almost incredible that the beauties of this country should not be better known abroad. We have places like the Isle of Wight, with Shanklin, Totland Bay, and Ventnor, beautiful places which ought to be visited by foreigners again and again. There is also a very important aspect of the problem that I wish to mention, and that is our great historic dockyard towns, which are doing their best to develop an alternative industry as tourist and seaside resorts, in view of the possibility of a reduction of armament expenditure in the dockyards in the future. Those dockyard towns, Portsmouth, Plymouth
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and Sheerness, deserve every encouragement in the efforts they are making to become seaside towns, and this Bill when it passes will enable them to receive some help from the visits of people from other countries. Then, the country is spending a great deal of money on developing its internal resources, and this is a chance of getting some return. The Office of Works is doing a good deal in classifying beautiful and historic buildings, and in writing excellent descriptive handbooks of these places. Our roads are the best in the world, our hotels are gradually, if slowly, improving; we have the new sport of "hiking," which is so popular to-day among younger people, and we are controlling disfiguring advertisements.
I am told that sun bathing is developing at seaside resorts, and one way in which your Lordships might help in this connection would be by patronising the seaside resorts of this country. I am quite sure that if it were suitably advertised that members of your Lordships' House were going to bathe in various places, there might be a large increase in the number of visitors—at least for one year. Further, we are dealing on more common sense lines with the treatment of foreign visitors landing in this country. For instance, I have before me the little booklet which is issued to visitors. Up to a few months ago they used to be called aliens, now they are called foreign visitors. All these little things are of considerable assistance in securing that the beauties and development of our country are known to foreigners overseas, and that the obstacles placed in the way of visitors in our country are lessened. I hope very much that this Bill will go through as soon as possible so that use may be made of it, as has been indicated by the noble Lord who has just spoken, during the present, tourist season.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before eight o'clock.

PUBLIC WORKS FACILITIES SCHEME (ACTON SWING BRIDGE) CONFIRMATION BILL.
Pursuant to the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930, deemed to have been read 2a, and reported from the Committee.
LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
LIVERPOOL UNIVERSITY BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.

NORTHAMPTON EXTENSION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments; the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (City of Worcester).
Also the Certificate that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Manchester and South Staffordshire).
And also the Certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
London Electric, Metropolitan District, and Central London Railway Companies (Works) [H.L.],
Portsmouth Corporation.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

FELIXSTOWE AND DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE, STALYBRIDGE AND DUKINFIELD (DISTRICT) WATERWORKS BILL, [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.

LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BILL.
Leave given to the Committee to hear parties interested by themselves, their counsel, agents, and witnesses so far as the Committee think fit: The evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.
STROUD GAS ORDER, 1931.
CHICHESTER ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1931.
COLCHESTER ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1931.

NORTHAMPTON GAS ORDER, 1931.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

PUBLIC OFFICES (SITES) AMENDMENT BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee to join, with the Select Committee of the House of Commons for the consideration of the said Bill—namely:—

E. Airlie,

L. Wemyss (E. Wemyss),

L. Stanmore,

L. Rochester:

Agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly. Ordered, That such Committee

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have power to agree with the Committee of the House of Commons in the appointment of a Chairman.
Then a Message was ordered to be sent to the House of Commons in answer to their Message of Wednesday last, to inform them of the appointment of the said Committee by this House, and to propose that the Joint Committee do meet in Committee Room No. 4 on Wednesday, the 10th of June next, at eleven o'clock.